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The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: Lilas Pastia on April 06, 2007, 07:15:30 AM

Title: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 06, 2007, 07:15:30 AM
Continuing the ol' thread...

Just received: the 7th, VPO Boulez. Will listen to it in the next few weeks (so many more to listen to ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on April 06, 2007, 08:13:28 AM
Glad this thread has been continued. Is that 7th a new recording?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 06, 2007, 08:21:01 AM
I believe it's this one:

QuoteBoulez         Vienna Philharmonic Orch. 5/6/05 Karna Musik CD KA 195M .......... 59:00 - 18:37 19:02  8:23 12:28
(from John Berky's discography)

I just got the disc by itself, no notes, covers, in an anonymous brown envelope 8). Who knows where it hails from exactly... I only hope it's not conducted by  René Köhler. I'd hate to have a Hatto pulled on me ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on April 06, 2007, 09:04:48 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on April 06, 2007, 07:15:30 AM
Continuing the ol' thread...

Just received: the 7th, VPO Boulez. Will listen to it in the next few weeks (so many more to listen to ::)
I didn't know this was coming out. I heard a radio aircheck of a Boulez 7th which I thought was absolutely outstanding, except for a slightly lightweight first movement, so I guess that's another $20 of mine going to the pockets of Universal. :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on April 06, 2007, 09:35:22 AM
just a question not related to the main topic. out of pure curiosity, why is that only males seem to enjoy the music of Bruckner?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on April 06, 2007, 10:29:19 AM
Quote from: mahlertitan on April 06, 2007, 09:35:22 AM
just a question not related to the main topic. out of pure curiosity, why is that only males seem to enjoy the music of Bruckner?

Speak for yourself. My wife loves Bruckner. One of our first dates was Bruckner 7th with Chailly/Concertgebouw.  :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on April 06, 2007, 10:41:38 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on April 06, 2007, 10:29:19 AM
Speak for yourself. My wife loves Bruckner. One of our first dates was Bruckner 7th with Chailly/Concertgebouw.  :D

What an absolutely sublime-sounding date. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on April 06, 2007, 10:52:36 AM
Quote from: edward on April 06, 2007, 09:04:48 AM
I didn't know this was coming out. I heard a radio aircheck of a Boulez 7th which I thought was absolutely outstanding, except for a slightly lightweight first movement, so I guess that's another $20 of mine going to the pockets of Universal. :D

I don't think it's coming out (at least I don't know anything about it). I believe all of us are listening to Austrian Radio digital airchecks. But if DG has the rights I hope they release it, fantastic performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on April 06, 2007, 03:57:27 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on April 06, 2007, 10:29:19 AM
Speak for yourself. My wife loves Bruckner. One of our first dates was Bruckner 7th with Chailly/Concertgebouw.  :D

u r a lucky dude.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Burchest on April 12, 2007, 03:29:05 PM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on April 06, 2007, 09:35:22 AM
just a question not related to the main topic. out of pure curiosity, why is that only males seem to enjoy the music of Bruckner?

My wife has enjoyed Bruckner for years.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 13, 2007, 02:44:48 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on April 06, 2007, 09:35:22 AM
just a question not related to the main topic. out of pure curiosity, why is that only males seem to enjoy the music of Bruckner?

Mrs. Rock enjoys Bruckner.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 18, 2007, 12:16:33 PM
Heard this week:

Symphony no 5
. Otmar  Suitner, Berlin Staatskapelle (Berlin Classics, 1990 recording). And another one by the BRSO under Sawallisch (Orfeo). I slightly prefer Suitner's orchestra and Berlin Classics' fabulous recording job. The maestro has some peculiar ideas about tempo, but in the end he carries the day with a very convincing performance. The Sawallisch is clearly more mainstream in terms of conception. An almost straussian reading (late Strauss, that is: Capriccio, not Frau ohne Schatten). Clear-headed, with incisive rythms and quite transparent textures. But slightly less well played and recorded. Not that it's deficient in any way, but the Berlin version is truly outstanding.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on April 18, 2007, 12:32:01 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on April 18, 2007, 12:16:33 PM
Heard this week:

Symphony no 5
. Otmar  Suitner, Berlin Staatskapelle (Berlin Classics, 1990 recording). And another one by the BRSO under Sawallisch (Orfeo). I slightly prefer Suitner's orchestra and Berlin Classics' fabulous recording job. The maestro has some peculiar ideas about tempo, but in the end he carries the day with a very convincing performance. The Sawallisch is clearly more mainstream in terms of conception. An almost straussian reading (late Strauss, that is: Capriccio, not Frau ohne Schatten). Clear-headed, with incisive rythms and quite transparent textures. But slightly less well played and recorded. Not that it's deficient in any way, but the Berlin version is truly outstanding.

OK, I'm intrigued. I have heard great things about Suitner's Bruckner 4th as well and there seems to be an 8th as well. Unfortunately, none of the three are available at amazon. Where do can you get this stuff?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 18, 2007, 01:39:42 PM
I also have the 8th, with the same orchestra. However it is markedly inferior in sound -live from the Konzerthaus, Berlin vs the commercial 4 and 5 from Berlin's Christuskirche. Berlin Classics discs are easily obtainable in record stores here (Montreal), but I got the 8th from the Weitblick label at BRO (still available right now).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on April 18, 2007, 01:45:35 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on April 18, 2007, 12:32:01 PM
OK, I'm intrigued. I have heard great things about Suitner's Bruckner 4th as well and there seems to be an 8th as well. Unfortunately, none of the three are available at amazon. Where do can you get this stuff?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bruckner-Symphony-No-4-Anton/dp/B0001IPC04 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bruckner-Symphony-No-4-Anton/dp/B0001IPC04)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on April 18, 2007, 03:03:14 PM
CDjapan has a Bruckner 4 with Kertesz/LSO. Does anyone know anything about this recording? Is it any good?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on April 19, 2007, 04:07:03 AM
Just bought Rozhdestvensky performing Bruckner Symphony 3 on Revelation which I thought excellent.  V interesting to hear a Russian orchestra play Bruckner (I also like my Svetlanov recording of Elgar Symphony 2)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on April 19, 2007, 08:44:56 AM
In addition to my questions regarding Kertesz, could anyone please recommend to me what are the best recordings of Asahina doing Bruckner? I was told there are good performances with Osaka, but at CDJapan I can only find recordings with Tokyo. There also seems to be a (absurdly expensive) DVD with the CSO. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 19, 2007, 10:00:39 AM
I've not heard the Kertesz LSO for myself, but have seen reviews that differ markedly. An old Penguin guide describes Kertesz as "the master of the long crescendo", and his account to be "the most dramatic of all (this review dates from at least 30 years though)" American Record Guide acknowledges it is sometimes highly regarded, but refers to it as being "simply too fast. Much is lost that way".

It is from 1965 and playing and recording are referred to (Penguin again) as "magnificent". I'd never buy at testament's price, though. Keep in mind that for a long time it was found on a super budget lp (Decca's Ace of Diamonds series). Maybe if Decca would include it in a Kertesz box, though ::). He was a very fine conductor.

I believe someone here has a few Asahinas and could give you some input.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Danny on April 19, 2007, 10:37:04 AM
Just bought (an am liking) Bruckner's Fifth conducted by Welser-Most with the LSO.  I hear some hate this disc--and perhaps there are betters out there--but for the price I paid I cannot make any objections about its worth. 

Overall, I think its a very good interpretation and I especially love the first two movements. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: quintett op.57 on April 19, 2007, 02:16:48 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on April 06, 2007, 10:29:19 AM
Speak for yourself. My wife loves Bruckner. One of our first dates was Bruckner 7th with Chailly/Concertgebouw.  :D
Quote from: Burchest on April 12, 2007, 03:29:05 PM
My wife has enjoyed Bruckner for years.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 13, 2007, 02:44:48 AM
Mrs. Rock enjoys Bruckner.

Does it mean my lady will start enjoying Bruckner as much as Chopin or Brahms as soon as I marry her?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 19, 2007, 05:02:49 PM
My wife heard the Toledo Symphony play Bruckner's Seventh and Fourth Symphonies in the cathedral and did not run to a divorce lawyer: she enjoyed it, although she really would have preferred James Taylor in Concert.   :o
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on April 20, 2007, 05:41:56 AM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/6e/4c/7ccba2c008a01930c086a010._AA240_.L.jpg)

Symphony No.9, Münchner Philharmoniker, April 1938 HMV (Preiser)

Flowing, swift (very swift in Scherzo) but I don't find it rushed. Unsentimental but not cold, nonhistrionic but neither reticent, structuraly coherent reading with achieved formidable orchestral clarity for the time. Münchner Philharmoniker of '38 doesn't need cutting any slack. Sound decent for 1938, lacking the lowest of lows and having limited dynamic range but nicely detailed and with enough presence.
I quite like it (it has high hummability factor*) but probably not to everybodys taste (most?).

This is I believe the only existing Hausegger recording, of anything, pity.

* I like to sing along with Bruckner, not that I can.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Que on April 20, 2007, 07:19:08 AM
Quote from: Drasko on April 20, 2007, 05:41:56 AM
Symphony No.9, Münchner Philharmoniker, April 1938 HMV (Preiser)

Flowing, swift (very swift in Scherzo) but I don't find it rushed. Unsentimental but not cold, nonhistrionic but neither reticent, structuraly coherent reading with achieved formidable orchestral clarity for the time. Münchner Philharmoniker of '38 doesn't need cutting any slack. Sound decent for 1938, lacking the lowest of lows and having limited dynamic range but nicely detailed and with enough presence.
I quite like it (it has high hummability factor*) but probably not to everybodys taste (most?).

This is I believe the only existing Hausegger recording, of anything, pity.

* I like to sing along with Bruckner, not that I can.

Hausegger's style sounds similar to Weingartner's.
Sounds like this might be something for me. :)

Q
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 20, 2007, 04:25:42 PM
Excellent description! I know it's not supposed to be, but when comparing Hausegger and Kabasta's ninths, I feel there's a similarity between the conductor's picture and the character of his performance !
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on April 24, 2007, 07:39:22 AM
(http://www.emiclassics.com/pack_image.php?icpn=0094638472322&size=190)

Speaking of the individuality of Bruckner’s work, Sir Simon said, “When I went on safari to Africa for the first time, flying in little planes over enormous valleys full of zebra and wildebeest, the only music that ever came to mind was Bruckner’s".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on April 24, 2007, 08:01:56 AM
Quote from: Drasko on April 24, 2007, 07:39:22 AM
(http://www.emiclassics.com/pack_image.php?icpn=0094638472322&size=190)

Speaking of the individuality of Bruckner's work, Sir Simon said, "When I went on safari to Africa for the first time, flying in little planes over enormous valleys full of zebra and wildebeest, the only music that ever came to mind was Bruckner's".

Has anyone heard this? I heard Rattle do Bruckner 9 live with the BPO and it was one of the worst Bruckner performances I have heard. Totally incoherent and uncharacteristically sketchy playing from the BPO.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on April 24, 2007, 08:04:50 AM
This is off-topic for Bruckner, and a dubious tangent at best on the Abbey . . . but yesterday I watched a little of an old Jackie Chan movie, something like 36 Crazy Fists . . . the dubbed voices (and dialogue as rendered in English) got in the way, and pretty much stayed there, so that at the last I couldn't bear to watch any more.

But it is the first occasion I have ever had to hear the line, "The abbott is an old fart."
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jwinter on April 24, 2007, 08:40:05 AM
Quote from: Choo Choo on April 24, 2007, 08:11:23 AM
His Proms 7th was another turkey.  Fortunately God whipped up a thunderstorm that killed the power here at the start of the Scherzo, sparing me further suffering (I was listening to the radio hookup.).

Wow, I may have to rethink that whole agnosticism thing.  ;D

Great to see you back, btw!  :)

I haven't had much time for serious Bruckner listening lately (my 3 year old is not putting up with hour-long sessions on the headphones ;D ).  I finally picked up Giulini's VPO 8 & 9 a while back (excellent, a nice surprise to find something every bit as interesting as everyone says it is), and a friend sent me Schuricht's VPO 8 & 9 also (still digesting that one).  That's about the extent of it for the past couple of months...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on April 24, 2007, 09:36:29 AM
Quote from: jwinter on April 24, 2007, 08:40:05 AM
my 3 year old is not putting up with hour-long sessions on the headphones

Well Bill I guess headphones can be claustrophobic at that age - maybe she'd be happier listening through 'speakers?

I do very much approve - obviously - of weaning them onto Bruckner at the earliest possible opportunity.  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 24, 2007, 04:15:04 PM
The next season of the Montreal symphony will include performances of the 2nd by Blomstedt and the 5th by Nagano.

I don't know what to expect. Nagano's 9th of last year was seemingly conducted with an overcooked fettucine. But his Berlin 8th was excellent if you like it on the slow side (download avalable here:http://www.dw-world.de/dw/0,2142,9697,00.html (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/0,2142,9697,00.html) .

As for the 2nd, that's a no-brainer: I'll be dead when they program it again, so I'm definitely going. And Blomstedt is a quite good brucknerian.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on April 24, 2007, 06:01:30 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on April 24, 2007, 04:15:04 PM
The next season of the Montreal symphony will include performances of the 2nd by Blomstedt and the 5th by Nagano.

That's good to know. I've been meaning to visit a friend in Montreal. Now I know when to time the visit.  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2007, 04:25:30 AM
Quote from: quintett op.57 on April 19, 2007, 02:16:48 PM
Does it mean my lady will start enjoying Bruckner as much as Chopin or Brahms as soon as I marry her?

No, unfortunately it doesn't mean that. The exact opposite in fact: once you marry her, all your possessions become her possessions, too, and she will instantly trash your Bruckner recordings and never allow you to listen to him again. My sage advice: remain a bachelor, Q....or try to steal one of our wives ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 05, 2007, 11:03:34 AM
This week's Bruckner fare consisted of :

- Symphony no 5, Stuttgart, Schuricht (1962)
- Symphony no 7, Orchestre métropolitain du Grand Montréal, Yannick Nézet-Séguin (2007).


The Stuttgart 5th is well played and decently recorded (mono), but overall this failed to ignite any fireworks, only occasional sparks. Contrary to his 1963 VPO 5th, Schuricht doesn't have at his disposal an orchestra that lives and feeds on Bruckner as the viennese obviously do. Everything is a bit tame and cautious in comparison, so naturalness of utterance and expressiveness  suffer. The last movement has the exact same timing as the EMI Klemperer. The latter has a sense of purpose and destination, and even a feeling of spontaneity, but this Stuttgart version is all a bit too even. The final coda is suitably grand and spacious, but in terms of raising the roof, Klemperer has it game, set and match. Note that for a reason I cannot begin to understand, the Scherzo is cut  :P(second half of the Trio and first reprise of the Scherzo). Broadcast time limitations maybe?

The Nézet-Séguin 7th is a brand new issue, recorded live in the beautifully spacious and transparent acoustics of St-John the Baptist Church, Montreal. I was mightily surprised by this disc. It is so different from anything I've heard before as to be in a category of its own. The orchestra numbers about 75 players and as I've mentioned they play in a large venue, with a long sound decay (3-4 seconds). It has to be played at a substantially higher level than usual to achieve good sonic impact. Once the volume level has been adjusted, it sounds splendidly natural. What comes across is an extraordinarily luminous, reflective account. Beauty of phrasing seems to be the operative word form first note to last.

What struck me most was the total control exerted by the conductor over the rythms and dynamics. Tempi in the first 2 movements are spacious (22:00 and 25:40). Variations of pulsebetween sections are absolutely seamless. This induces a kind of trance-like, hypnotic feeling, although sometimes it makes one wish for some excitement. Forget about Jochum-like accelerandos as the climax of the Adagio is in sight: the same iron grip on the basic tempo makes that climax blossom instead of erupting with lightning and thunderbolts from the timpani. In a sense it's a bit disappointing, but what comes after is the most magical coda Ive heard on record. Similarly, the big orchestral crescendo-decrescendo that immediately precedes the coda of I is jaw-dropping in its collected intensity and beauty of execution. I mentioned the control over dynamics: this is an unusually undramatic account in terms of sound level: I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Bruckner's markings have been more closely followed here than in most other interpretations. A lot of the time the playing is between pp and mf. The few real climaxes are suitably brilliant and expansive.

The scherzo I found a bit tame, with an overly dreamy trio. The Finale is where Nézet-Séguin changes the perspective by adopting a swift basic tempo. The bold brass pronouncements are superb, and here the conductor's control achieves magic: the ensuing pauses' length exactly match the sound decay of the hall (an effect that was ruined in the Wand-Lübeck 9th, with musical phrases overlapping on the decay of the preceding ones). Things noticeably liven up in the coda, where a rush of adrenalin brings the movement to a triumphant E major close.

This is a live recording, but there's not a peep to be heard from the audience (only the booklet pictures let us know that the church was packed). I found the low winds a bit reticent (scherzo esp.), but there's a wealth of string details that stand like in no other recording I know (esp. violas in I an II). So altogether it doesn't replace my favourites (Blomstedt Dreden, Schuricht The Hague), but it comes right after those. Not bad for a 31 year old conductor and a 3rd tier orchestra.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: sound67 on May 05, 2007, 11:13:11 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 24, 2007, 08:04:50 AM
This is off-topic for Bruckner

But this one isn't:

Bruckner is a bore. If God had wanted Wagner to write symphonies, he would have let him write symphonies.

Prayers that last in excess of 50 minutes are always boring.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 12:48:05 PM
Quote from: sound67 on May 05, 2007, 11:13:11 AM
But this one isn't:

Bruckner is a bore. If God had wanted Wagner to write symphonies, he would have let him write symphonies.

Prayers that last in excess of 50 minutes are always boring.

Who let the curmudgeon in? No matter, I'll deal with him.

You see 67, the boredom inherent in Bruckner's music doesn't bother us at all. Most of us are disciples of Dunbar, that classic philosopher in Catch-22 who asserted that life could be prolonged if you simply cultivated boredom. The more boring something is, the slower time passes. We've discovered Bruckner is perfect for this. Myself, I frequently listen to Celibidache's Bruckner...my god, boredom made manifest in soundwaves!!! I've done calculations and can state without doubt that I'm going to live roughly twenty times longer than the average western middle-class male who eschews Bruckner. I owe it all to dear Anton...and Celi of course  :)

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on May 05, 2007, 12:57:43 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 12:48:05 PM
Who let the curmudgeon in? No matter, I'll deal with him.

You see 67, the boredom inherent in Bruckner's music doesn't bother us at all. Most of us are disciples of Dunbar, that classic philosopher in Catch-22 who asserted that life could be prolonged if you simply cultivated boredom. The more boring something is, the slower time passes. We've discovered Bruckner is perfect for this. Myself, I frequently listen to Celibidache's Bruckner...my god, boredom made manifest in soundwaves!!! I've done calculations and can state without doubt that I'm going to live roughly twenty times longer than the average western middle-class male who eschews Bruckner. I owe it all to dear Anton...and Celi of course  :)

Sarge

(http://www.ichef.com/uploads/heart_icon.gif)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Israfel the Black on May 06, 2007, 08:02:08 PM
I don't find Celibidache's Bruckner particularly boring at all honestly. In fact, quite the contrary. To each one's own, but I don't assert slow tempo or long symphonies as a flaw or a necessary tedium that one must cope with in order to appreciate the more important aspects of the work. I embrace Bruckner as I embrace the world.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: max on May 06, 2007, 09:30:57 PM
Quote from: sound67 on May 05, 2007, 11:13:11 AM
But this one isn't:

Prayers that last in excess of 50 minutes are always boring.

...that's close to 2 movements of a Bruckner symphony. Methinks you have underestimated his boredom.
As for me, I find a temporary dose of euthanasia and being resurrected at the Final Coda to be extremely refreshing! After that, you kind of view the world with 'renovated eyes' or ears or both! ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on May 06, 2007, 09:47:47 PM
in general i don't find Bruckner's music boring, he has written some of most beautiful and majestic symphonic passages. However, there are a few symphonies that I don't find nearly as interesting as the "romantic" or the 7th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 07, 2007, 05:12:48 AM
What fool hath added water to the sea?  Dareth an inVader to useth the B-word in Bruckner's Abbey!?!    :o

Fie and a pox on the churlish troll!  (Or should that be trollish churl?  Or maybe just "churly mahn"?)

Boredom is in the ear of the beholder!

All I needed was simply to see the score of a Bruckner symphony, when I was 9 years old, and I knew I was looking at greatness!

Jochum's recording later proved my imagination's ear correct!  Boredom? 

Exactly how are 9 struggles with all the malign and benign powers of the universe boring???

Ah well: many are polled, few are dozin' !
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 07, 2007, 05:33:06 AM
Quote from: Israfel the Black on May 06, 2007, 08:02:08 PM
I don't find Celibidache's Bruckner particularly boring at all honestly.

Either do I...my comments to sound67 were made with tongue firmly planted in cheek.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on May 07, 2007, 05:36:49 AM
Good neighbors, be prepared to embrace a little irony!  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: david johnson on May 07, 2007, 06:02:11 AM
Quote from: sound67 on May 05, 2007, 11:13:11 AM
But this one isn't:

Bruckner is a bore. If God had wanted Wagner to write symphonies, he would have let him write symphonies.

Prayers that last in excess of 50 minutes are always boring.

...what's this above?  a fool's rant??   :D

chuckle...

dj

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on May 07, 2007, 06:48:19 AM
Even I, cautious as I can be about certain composers, feel that Bruckner was sorely abused here  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 07, 2007, 12:17:37 PM
At the risk of blasphemy, one could almost quote Isaiah 53 here  0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 07, 2007, 03:14:44 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 07, 2007, 06:48:19 AM
Even I, cautious as I can be about certain composers, feel that Bruckner was sorely abused here  8)


You ain't just whistlin' Dittersdorf, Karl!    0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: david johnson on May 21, 2007, 10:28:43 AM
B9 giulini/chicago.  oh, yeeeaaahhhhhh !!!!

dj
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JoshLilly on May 21, 2007, 11:09:20 AM
Wagner did write symphonies, at least, both the Wagners I know of.
Richard wrote one and a half, and his son Siegfried wrote at least one.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on May 21, 2007, 12:04:45 PM
Quote from: JoshLilly on May 21, 2007, 11:09:20 AM
Wagner did write symphonies, at least, both the Wagners I know of.
Richard wrote one and a half, and his son Siegfried wrote at least one.

Siegfried's symphonies are.... not very good.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 21, 2007, 12:06:10 PM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on May 21, 2007, 12:04:45 PM
Siegfried's symphonies are.... not very good.

Neither are Richard's, just be glad RIchard didn't keep writing symphonies.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: AB68 on May 21, 2007, 01:24:53 PM
Quote from: david johnson on May 21, 2007, 10:28:43 AM
B9 giulini/chicago.  oh, yeeeaaahhhhhh !!!!

dj

Giulini's 9 with Wiener Philharmoniker is even better.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: quintett op.57 on May 25, 2007, 12:55:24 AM
Quote from: sound67 on May 05, 2007, 11:13:11 AM
But this one isn't:

Bruckner is a bore. If God had wanted Wagner to write symphonies, he would have let him write symphonies.

Prayers that last in excess of 50 minutes are always boring.
It's not an effort for me to listen to Sy 5 two consecutive times without doing anything else. Gripping!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: david johnson on May 25, 2007, 01:56:11 AM
Quote from: AB68 on May 21, 2007, 01:24:53 PM
Giulini's 9 with Wiener Philharmoniker is even better.

gasp...sacrilege ;)  i'll have to check that one out.  when it comes to #9 favorites i stay mostly with this chicago or the late 60s hvk/bpo.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on May 27, 2007, 09:20:09 AM
Giulini's Chicago recording is still in print in a decent four disk budget package:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/417CC20WCCL._AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Recordings-Ludwig-van-Beethoven/dp/B0001ZMBV0)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on May 27, 2007, 10:07:10 AM
http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/1092639/9933642/
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on May 27, 2007, 11:40:53 AM
Giulini's Vienna 8th is available from Arkiv Music (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=56689&album_group=8)... how does it compare to his performance with the Philharmonia Orchestra a year earlier?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 28, 2007, 06:23:25 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b9/Bruckner_arrives_in_heaven.jpg) "Anton Bruckner arrives in Heaven".
Bruckner is greeted by (from left to right): Liszt, Wagner, Schubert, Schumann, Weber, Mozart, Beethoven, Gluck, Haydn, Handel, Bach.
(Silhouette drawing by Otto Böhler)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: max on May 28, 2007, 09:30:06 PM
Say What! Wagner made it to heaven! His personality must have been more charismatic than anyone who ever lived. I don't think Martin Luther made it there. And what happened to poor Nietzsche! Was he condemned for his Wagner diatribes??
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Heather Harrison on June 10, 2007, 09:58:32 AM
With interests as broad as mine, it is inevitable that I will overlook certain composers for a time; Bruckner is in this category.  While I have encountered (and liked) a few of his works in the past, I haven't gotten around to a deeper exploration... at least until now.  The expansive style of late-Romanticism has always appealed to me; for years, I have had a strong interest in Wagner, Mahler, and R. Strauss, and I have recently added Elgar to that list.  Bruckner seemed like a good choice to add to this, so when I saw it in a store, I decided to buy this set of Jochum's classic recordings for DG:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Z7HB0QJBL._AA240_.jpg)

This set contains all of the symphonies except Nos. 0 and 00, which I'll have to find somewhere else (possibly in another set).

I was going to start a thread to talk about my impressions of his symphonies as I listen to them, but I saw this thread and chose to add to it instead.

Yesterday, I listened to Symphony No. 1, and I posted my first impressions in the "Purchases Today" thread.  What I found was a stormy work with great power and energy, punctuated by a nice interlude in the form of a lovely slow movement.  I was especially amazed at the scherzo; seldom have I heard one with such power.  Considering that this is an early work, and not generally considered the best of his output, I will be interested to hear the others.  I am listening to them in order, so I'll be posting something about No. 2 before long.

I would be interested to hear the thoughts of others about No. 1, and about the others as I move on to them.  Also, recommendations for a second Bruckner cycle would be useful; these seem like symphonies that I should have more than one performance of.  Also, perhaps when I'm done with these I will move on to some of his other music.  Any thoughts on his masses?

See...  there are women who like Bruckner!

Heather
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on June 10, 2007, 11:07:33 AM
Quote from: Heather Harrison on June 10, 2007, 09:58:32 AM
This set contains all of the symphonies except Nos. 0 and 00, which I'll have to find somewhere else (possibly in another set).

They are in the Skrowaczewski set, and you can get them (Symphony in F and Symphony No. 0) separately as well (http://shopping.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AjPesWrU23OxbYFFttu.0lkEgFoB;_ylu=X3oDMTBhNjRqazhxBHNlYwNzZWFyY2g-?p=skrowaczewski+bruckner&did=&x=0&y=0).

Quote
Yesterday, I listened to Symphony No. 1 [...] What I found was a stormy work with great power and energy, punctuated by a nice interlude in the form of a lovely slow movement.  I was especially amazed at the scherzo; seldom have I heard one with such power.

Spot on, it's a great work, but for a power scherzo, wait until you get to No. 8.  For the masses, there's a Jochum set, and Barenboim on EMI has great choral work.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on June 10, 2007, 11:43:18 AM
Anyone heard Gunter Wand's 4th with Munich Philharmonic? I have the live recording and it sounds BETTER than most studio recordings. It wasn't until the end where the audience broke out with thunderclap that I realized it was an on-stage performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on June 10, 2007, 11:46:44 AM
Quote from: max on May 28, 2007, 09:30:06 PM
And what happened to poor Nietzsche! Was he condemned for his Wagner diatribes??

His music was too bad :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Steve on June 10, 2007, 11:47:46 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 10, 2007, 11:43:18 AM
Anyone heard Gunter Wand's 4th with Munich Philharmonic? I have the live recording and it sounds BETTER than most studio recordings. It wasn't until the end where the audience broke out with thunderclap that I realized it was an on-stage performance.

I've only heard it twice, but I defintely enjoyed it. For a live recording, the sonics were excellent. Boneheim, what is you studio-reference recording for this piece? I generally prefer Karajan in the 4th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on June 10, 2007, 12:04:55 PM
Quote from: Steve on June 10, 2007, 11:47:46 AM
I've only heard it twice, but I defintely enjoyed it. For a live recording, the sonics were excellent. Boneheim, what is you studio-reference recording for this piece? I generally prefer Karajan in the 4th.

I wasn't comparing it to a performance of the 4th in particular, but rather studio recordings as a whole. Don't you think everything sounds so crisp and clear (especially the ending flourishes, BRILLIANT)? Some studio recordings have duller sound and the layers of the sound aren't projected as smoothly.

P.S. Not to be a spelling nazi or anything, but could you please start calling me Bonehelm instead of heim? Thanks a lot  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on June 10, 2007, 12:21:47 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 10, 2007, 11:43:18 AM
Anyone heard Gunter Wand's 4th with Munich Philharmonic? I have the live recording and it sounds BETTER than most studio recordings. It wasn't until the end where the audience broke out with thunderclap that I realized it was an on-stage performance.

Which one? I assume there are several. Mine on Profil Medien is very nice, but didn't blow me away as much as Jochum (EMI) or Karajan (EMI)'s.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on June 10, 2007, 12:39:40 PM
Quote from: Lethe on June 10, 2007, 12:21:47 PM
Which one? I assume there are several. Mine on Profil Medien is very nice, but didn't blow me away as much as Jochum (EMI) or Karajan (EMI)'s.

Robert Haas edition, with Naxos.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Steve on June 10, 2007, 12:44:33 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 10, 2007, 12:04:55 PM


I wasn't comparing it to a performance of the 4th in particular, but rather studio recordings as a whole. Don't you think everything sounds so crisp and clear (especially the ending flourishes, BRILLIANT)? Some studio recordings have duller sound and the layers of the sound aren't projected as smoothly.

P.S. Not to be a spelling nazi or anything, but could you please start calling me Bonehelm instead of heim? Thanks a lot  :)

Yes, sorry about misspelling your name so often.  ;)

Bonehelm,

Yes, the entire recording was quite vibrant. Have you heard Karajan?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 10, 2007, 12:45:32 PM
Quote from: Steve on June 10, 2007, 11:47:46 AM
I've only heard it twice, but I defintely enjoyed it. For a live recording, the sonics were excellent. Boneheim, what is you studio-reference recording for this piece? I generally prefer Karajan in the 4th.

If you haven't heard Kubelik (BRSO/Sony) or Böhm (VPO/Decca), you should. Karajan has nowhere near the detail of these two nor the inexorable organic progression.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Steve on June 10, 2007, 12:48:25 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 10, 2007, 12:45:32 PM
If you haven't heard Kubelik (BRSO/Sony) or Böhm (VPO/Decca), you should. Karajan has nowhere near the detail of these two nor the inexorable organic progression.

Of those two, I've only heard the Bohm, and I don't remember being entirely impressed.

'has nowhere near the detail'

Could you elaborate?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on June 10, 2007, 01:05:13 PM
Quote from: Steve on June 10, 2007, 12:44:33 PM
Yes, sorry about misspelling your name so often.  ;)

Bonehelm,

Yes, the entire recording was quite vibrant. Have you heard Karajan?

Yes, Steve. I have but I still prefer Wand's. As Mensch had said, I find HvK's interpretations not as crisp, and often rushed...as is the case with his LvB symphonies (except for the 5th's 1st movement, where the momentum and force delivers at a perfect pace - probably my favourite interpretation of that particular movement).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 10, 2007, 01:43:28 PM
Quote from: Steve on June 10, 2007, 12:48:25 PM
'has nowhere near the detail'

Could you elaborate?

I mean the sectional balances and the phrasing of the secondary parts. Much of that is simply inaudible with Karajan. A lot of the woodwind parts as well as violas and second violins are hard to hear at all with Karajan. There is a lot more texture and polyphony to this stuff than you would glean from hearing just Karajan. Wand (BPO, especially, but NDR as well) is also mandatory listening. I would also get the Celibidache Munich version on EMI, just for the ability to see everything laid out in unsurpassed color in slow motion, not as an interpretive reference. After hearing Celi, when you listen to anyone else, you won't miss anything!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 10, 2007, 01:48:39 PM
Quote from: Heather Harrison on June 10, 2007, 09:58:32 AMYesterday, I listened to Symphony No. 1, and I posted my first impressions in the "Purchases Today" thread.  What I found was a stormy work with great power and energy, punctuated by a nice interlude in the form of a lovely slow movement.  I was especially amazed at the scherzo; seldom have I heard one with such power.  Considering that this is an early work, and not generally considered the best of his output, I will be interested to hear the others.  I am listening to them in order, so I'll be posting something about No. 2 before long.

His first symphony is early in terms of chronology with the other symphonies, but it was completed at the ripe young age of 42. Bruckner was long a student of the form before he was inspired to craft his symphonies. And, as you are aware, the Study Symphony and the Nullte were begun before his first (though the 0 was revised after completion of the 1st). From that view, the first can be considered a mature work. It is certainly an exciting piece especially with Jochum's mercurial tempi. The sound is particularly good in the set you have... it is almost hard to believe the performances are from the 60's (other than the '58 5th which does show its age).

Quote from: Heather Harrison on June 10, 2007, 09:58:32 AMI would be interested to hear the thoughts of others about No. 1, and about the others as I move on to them.  Also, recommendations for a second Bruckner cycle would be useful; these seem like symphonies that I should have more than one performance of.  Also, perhaps when I'm done with these I will move on to some of his other music.  Any thoughts on his masses?

Jochum's DG masses with the same Bavarian group from that DG symphony cycle are also very good. Barenboim's EMI recordings of Bruckner's vocal works are also quite good, and the set includes Bruckner's Te Deum which he considered his finest work. It certainly sounds that on the EMI set.

As far as other cycles go, I think you might be best served with an à la carte selection of your favorite symphonies. Georg Tintner has a great cycle from Naxos that is budget priced. But if I had to do it over again, I probably would have selected only his 3rd and 7th as I don't find I listen to any of the others near as much. Stanislaw Skrowaczewski's Saarbrücken set is another that has received strong positive reviews. His timings seem very similar to Jochum's though, so you may get a general feeling of sameness with that set. Tintner's cycle on the other hand features a broader reading and some interesting versions (non-standard). Both of those sets, however, can be purchased piecemeal so if you wanted to add the 0 and 00 symphonies, you could purchase them separately rather than the whole cycle.

There will be a great variety of suggestions on which composers you should seek to compliment your cycle. Sinopoli's 5th, along with Karajan's EMI 7th and '88 8th, and Giulini's 2nd (and OOP 8th--but available as a CD-R from Arkiv) make for some of the finest recordings of all Bruckner's symphonies. Tennstedt's budget priced 4th and 8th combo is another great choice. Klemperer's 1964 Philharmonia 6th, Wand's late 6th with the BPO and Böhm's 4th (along with Karajan's 4th--the EMI release is lower priced and just as fine as the later DG release) are all among those that I would not want to be without. If money is not an object, Barenboim's Chicago 1st coupled with Te Deum is another fine recording; it is OOP though, so you would have to seek it out on the secondary market.

I just ordered the Celibidache box from EMI and I am looking forward to his controversial interpretations. And Inbal's 4th (original version) is next on my list as the Scherzo is completely different from the later "hunting horn" scherzo in the Haas edition.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 10, 2007, 01:55:26 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 10, 2007, 12:04:55 PMI wasn't comparing it to a performance of the 4th in particular, but rather studio recordings as a whole. Don't you think everything sounds so crisp and clear (especially the ending flourishes, BRILLIANT)? Some studio recordings have duller sound and the layers of the sound aren't projected as smoothly.

That is actually true of Wand's last recordings with the BPO as well--full of exciting, live tension while having clear studio-like sound. I think I may have to add those Munich performances to my list though. ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on June 10, 2007, 02:13:13 PM
Quote from: beclemund on June 10, 2007, 01:55:26 PM
That is actually true of Wand's last recordings with the BPOas well--full of exciting, live tension while having clear studio-like sound. I think I may have to add those Munich performances to my list though. ;)

??? I meant the MPO recording, not Berliner Philharmoniker.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 10, 2007, 02:21:23 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 10, 2007, 02:13:13 PM
??? I meant the MPO recording, not Berliner Philharmoniker.

I think that's why he said "as well".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2007, 02:29:48 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 10, 2007, 12:45:32 PM
If you haven't heard Kubelik (BRSO/Sony) or Böhm (VPO/Decca), you should. Karajan has nowhere near the detail of these two nor the inexorable organic progression.

Agree with you, O, about the detail in the Böhm but still I've never liked that recording. It seems souless to me. I get no rush from it. I admire it; can't love it. Karajan (EMI) remains my favorite version despite the lack of clear detail...or maybe because it lacks detail. The recording makes the Berlin Phil sound like a giant organ (especially so on my old Angel LPs) and I think that works very well for Bruckner. Somebody said Karajan rushes. I've never felt that...and I'm the guy who claims you can't play Bruckner too slowly. In other words, I generally prefer my Bruckner slow. No way would Karajan's Fourth be my favorite if he were a speed demon. Listen to the chorale in the climax of the first movement's development. It's like time is standing still. Listen to how rushed Böhm is. No...I definitely prefer Karajan....and Celi.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on June 10, 2007, 02:42:22 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 10, 2007, 02:21:23 PM
I think that's why he said "as well".

Oh I'm sorry, didn't read the post carefullly.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Heather Harrison on June 10, 2007, 03:03:24 PM
This thread certainly got going again.

I just listened to the Second; it is an interesting contrast to the First.  It doesn't have the same raw energy; rather, it is more introspective.  I found the finale especially striking in its rapid and frequent changes of mood.  I also love the chorale-like passages in the slow movement.  Like the First, this one was also immediately appealing to me, but additionally I got a sense that there was, perhaps, more going on here; while the First seemed immediately accessible, the Second may need a few more hearings.

So far, I am impressed with the sound quality of this set, especially given its age.  It seems that I made a good choice.

I'll be listening to the Third soon, and I will post my thoughts.

Heather
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 10, 2007, 03:20:55 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2007, 02:29:48 PM
Agree with you, O, about the detail in the Böhm but still I've never liked that recording. It seems souless to me. I get no rush from it. I admire it; can't love it. Karajan (EMI) remains my favorite version despite the lack of clear detail...or maybe because it lacks detail. The recording makes the Berlin Phil sound like a giant organ (especially so on my old Angel LPs) and I think that works very well for Bruckner. Somebody said Karajan rushes. I've never felt that...and I'm the guy who claims you can't play Bruckner too slowly. In other words, I generally prefer my Bruckner slow. No way would Karajan's Fourth be my favorite if he were a speed demon. Listen to the chorale in the climax of the first movement's development. It's like time is standing still. Listen to how rushed Böhm is. No...I definitely prefer Karajan....and Celi.

I am listening to Wand with the BPO right now. So much more compelling. Throbbing with life and such rich textures. Far better attention to dynamic range, too.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Heather Harrison on June 10, 2007, 04:07:24 PM
I just finished listening to the Third.  To me, it seems more like the Second than the First, but compared to the Second, I get more of a sense of grandeur.  I especially notice this in the finale; there are passages of Wagnerian grandeur interspersed with lovely lyrical sections.  (I understand that this one was dedicated to Wagner, and that earlier versions contained quotes from his music.)  The slow movement seems to run through a great range of emotions, evoking grandeur, darkness, despair, and triumph at various moments.  Like the Second, this one has a great deal going on, and it will likely require several hearings to bring out all of the details.

Heather
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on June 10, 2007, 04:29:15 PM
It's neat to hear comments about someone not already fully familiar with his syms, I'm reading your updates with interest.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on June 10, 2007, 05:59:28 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 10, 2007, 03:20:55 PM
I am listening to Wand with the BPO right now. So much more compelling. Throbbing with life and such rich textures. Far better attention to dynamic range, too.

Yeah, Mensch. I love Wand and his Bruckner. I love it a lot more than Karajan...gotta try his Mahler sometime.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bogey on June 10, 2007, 07:19:43 PM
I need my first recording of the 9th and am not sure what to go with, while not going the box set route.  Start dropping me some "pearls" please....Whoo-ah!  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 10, 2007, 08:12:29 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 10, 2007, 07:19:43 PMI need my first recording of the 9th and am not sure what to go with, while not going the box set route.  Start dropping me some "pearls" please....Whoo-ah!  ;)

Another GMG'er posted a favorable review of Skrowaczewski's 9th on the Listening thread. My favorite 9th is Giulini's:

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/416K5KAEQGL._AA240_.jpg)

Jochum's Dresden 9th is also reviewed favorably and available on a budget two-fer with the 8th.

Hopefully, I will be able to make an appraisal of Celibidache's Munich 9th in a few days.   :)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on June 10, 2007, 08:18:17 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 10, 2007, 07:19:43 PM
I need my first recording of the 9th and am not sure what to go with, while not going the box set route.  Start dropping me some "pearls" please....Whoo-ah!  ;)

I'm never sure whether to recommend historic recordings for a first time, but given how excellent this is, and it being a budget disc, it is a good choice:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/5188122.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//5188122.htm)

Coupled with the Te Deum (on one disc). Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra, Sony Masterworks. I'm sure an American store would have it for cheaper.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 10, 2007, 08:30:16 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 10, 2007, 07:19:43 PM
I need my first recording of the 9th and am not sure what to go with, while not going the box set route.  Start dropping me some "pearls" please....Whoo-ah!  ;)

If it's a 'pearl' you're after, Bogey, here's the capstone of Bruckner 9th's, in glorious technicolor sound:


(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/3934966.jpg)


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on June 10, 2007, 09:44:41 PM
Quote from: Lethe on June 10, 2007, 08:18:17 PM
I'm never sure whether to recommend historic recordings for a first time, but given how excellent this is, and it being a budget disc, it is a good choice:
Coupled with the Te Deum (on one disc). Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra, Sony Masterworks. I'm sure an American store would have it for cheaper.

Oh, no, the Walter is historic now  :o  ;)

I love this recording.  Here's the latest remastering:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/517XAYWM1EL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on June 10, 2007, 10:08:11 PM
Quote from: donwyn on June 10, 2007, 08:30:16 PM
If it's a 'pearl' you're after, Bogey, here's the capstone of Bruckner 9th's, in glorious technicolor sound:


(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/3934966.jpg)




What the blue hell...Handel and Bruckner both in one package?  ???
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on June 10, 2007, 10:24:47 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 10, 2007, 10:08:11 PM
What the blue hell...Handel and Bruckner both in one package?  ???

I've been meaning to buy this disc for ages due to many excellent reviews, I'm glad I got reminded of it. Apparently the Handel was played to be as deliberately Bruckner-sounding as possible, and works very successfully as a coupling.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 04:16:43 AM
Quote from: Daverz on June 10, 2007, 09:44:41 PM
Oh, no, the Walter is historic now  :o  ;)


Damn...you know what that means, Dave: It means you and I are now historic too.  :(

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 04:35:21 AM
Quote from: beclemund on June 10, 2007, 08:12:29 PM
My favorite 9th is Giulini's:

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/416K5KAEQGL._AA240_.jpg)

Jochum's Dresden 9th is also reviewed favorably and available on a budget two-fer with the 8th.

Hey, Bogey. I concur completely with beclemund's recommendations. Giulini is my favorite too, and Jochum, a very different reading, is intensely dramatic and blistering. Haitink/Concertgebouw is also excellent, with a very broad first movement, just the way I like it. Barenboim's Berlin 9th (available separately from the box, I think) is probably the best thing in his cycle...which means it's very good indeed. Many swear by Furtwängler, and I understand why, but he rushes climactic moments; excting, yes, but at some loss of Brucknerian majesty and grandeur. I haven't heard Donwyn's Kubelik...I'd like to.

Have you heard the Eighth yet? If not, I guess my first recommendation would be  this one (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphonies-Nos-8-9/dp/B00004SRG7/ref=sr_1_7/105-7245042-3406051?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181564871&sr=1-7). For the price, $7.25 new, it can't be beat.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 04:48:23 AM
Continued thanks folks, I will try to sample all....out of the recs. which would you consider to be the slowest/darkest(?) reading?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 11, 2007, 05:12:37 AM
Heather, your assessment is excellent. This is a compact (for Bruckner) yet full-blown symphonic statement. The scherzo is indeed the work's most striking movement, a harbinger of other brucknerian scherzos to come (0, 2, 3, 6 and 7 also have the same kind of punchy peasant dance model). Note also the Tannhauser quasi-quotations at the beginning of the Finale. That particular movement seals the work in a grand, confident, almost exuberant way.

I concur with Beclemund: don't go for a second set, it's much too restrictive in terms of interpretational points of view and also brucknerian orchestral culture (a major point often insufficiently appreciated). As for specific interpretations for individual symphonies, you'll get recommendations aplenty.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on June 11, 2007, 05:18:10 AM
For 9ths, a combination of Walter and Furtwangler is both cheap and covers both poles of Bruckner interpretation in superb performances.

I have yet to hear either Giulini or Kubelik, however, so I believe I may have a treat in store for me. ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 05:43:50 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 04:48:23 AM
Continued thanks folks, I will try to sample all....out of the recs. which would you consider to be the slowest/darkest(?) reading?

Of the recordings I own on CD (have several more on LP), Giulini is definitely the slowest. But Jochum's tempos don't prevent his from being dark, very dark indeed. But you can see they stand at opposite interpretive extremes, at least in regards tempo. Giulini takes 35 seconds longer to reach that first, apocalyptic climax in the first movement. Jochum sounds like he's ignored Bruckner's misterioso marking (not that misterioso means slow but in practice it comes out that way).

Giulini         28:02   10:39   29:30
Klemperer    26:43   11:23   27:12
Barenboim   25:30   10:41    27:17   
Haitink        25:11   10:51   26:28
Abendroth    23:24    8:58    21:34
Jochum        23:06    9:49    27:39

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Que on June 11, 2007, 05:49:11 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 05:43:50 AM
Of the recordings I own on CD (have several more on LP), Giulini is definitely the slowest.

Giulini is the slowest in anything. :)

Q
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 06:04:18 AM
Quote from: Heather Harrison on June 10, 2007, 04:07:24 PM
I understand that this one was dedicated to Wagner, and that earlier versions contained quotes from his music.

Yes, the first version, the version Wagner saw when Bruckner asked permission to dedicate the symphony to him, has blatant quotes. If you're familiar with Wagner, they're easy to spot. Lots of fun. As originally written, the Third is actually Bruckner's longest symphony too.

The Third was my first Bruckner, recommended by a friend. It's still my sentimental favorite despite its flaws. Hearing it live even inspired me to wrote a poem:


THE D MINOR, THIRD VERSION, NOWAK

for David "Pete" Petersen

Conducting the Cleveland, Aldo Ceccato, baton
like a sword, was charging his way through the finale
of Bruckner's symphonic cathedral to Wagner
like it was the gallop from Rossini's Tell

(Latin temperament irrepressible, allowing
no monumental peasant piety nor Ländler lope)
when I noticed the afro among the three thousand
palefaces in attendance at Severance:

as the coda approached, that majestic moment
when trumpet theme returns for a major recycling,
the white woman beside him tapped his shoulder,
alerting. He tensed forward, straining to hear,

fanfares rallentando and. . .wholly Hallelujah!!!
Cleveland explodes!
braying horns, tuba and trombones erupting,
trumpets machine-gunning triplets.

I was showered in brass shrapnel, fifths,
goose bumps; a silly grin spreading. And
black and white
beamed enormously at each other

as he shook his head yes! O yes! up and down,
up and down, yes! and yes! And yes,
I thought amazed, this ain't Miles or Marvin,
stereotypes burning away in Brucknerian blaze.

Yes. . .make color and culture irrelevant,
build your Gothic structure of sound,
hurl your themes toward heaven like spires
and stride, augmented, through the macrocosm, Anton: sainted!

And let your majors and minors linger in my mind...


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Novi on June 11, 2007, 06:10:20 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 05:43:50 AM
Of the recordings I own on CD (have several more on LP), Giulini is definitely the slowest. But Jochum's tempos don't prevent his from being dark, very dark indeed. But you can see they stand at opposite interpretive extremes, at least in regards tempo. Giulini takes 35 seconds longer to reach that first, apocalyptic climax in the first movement. Jochum sounds like he's ignored Bruckner's misterioso marking (not that misterioso means slow but in practice it comes out that way).

Giulini's tempo works really well in the 9th imo. For me, the third movement becomes almost unbearably devastating and intense almost to breaking point.

I also like Furtwangler 1944 BPO for a more rugged and urgent account.
Timings for this are:
   23'41     9'35     25'38

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 06:12:02 AM
Quote from: Novitiate on June 11, 2007, 06:10:20 AM
Giulini's tempo works really well in the 9th imo. For me, the third movement becomes almost unbearably devastating and intense almost to breaking point.

I also like Furtwangler 1944 BPO for a more rugged and urgent account.
Timings for this are:
   23'41     9'35     25'38

Thanks for the times. I own that on LP and the times aren't included on the sleeve or the record.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 11, 2007, 10:03:02 AM
The Third is my favorite as well, Sarge. I only have Jochum's BPO, Tintner's RSNO, and Inbal's Frankfurt 3rds, however. The later two are both performances of the original version. Of those three, the Tintner performances is far and away my favorite. The Inbal recording seems a little muddy and lacks the clarity of the Naxos disc. I'm not sure if it was an issue of microphone placement or sound engineering. The RSNO also seems more committed to Tintner's vision and they play with real fervor. I cannot really place where the Jochum recording goes wrong for me, but I seldom make it through the entire symphony... much less the first movement.

We had an unexpected early closing at the office today, so on my way home, I visited the library for Karajan's 3rd (the disc doesn't specify a recording date, but it's a DG '81 release--the discography says '80 recording). I also picked up a '36 Böhm recording and Furtwängler's BPO 5th and 9th from '42 and '44 respectively. It will be a busy day of Bruckner. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 11, 2007, 10:19:08 AM
Quote from: beclemund on June 11, 2007, 10:03:02 AM
The Third is my favorite as well, Sarge. I only have Jochum's BPO, Tintner's RSNO, and Inbal's Frankfurt 3rds, however. The later two are both performances of the original version. Of those three, the Tintner performances is far and away my favorite. The Inbal recording seems a little muddy and lacks the clarity of the Naxos disc. I'm not sure if it was an issue of microphone placement or sound engineering. The RSNO also seems more committed to Tintner's vision and they play with real fervor. I cannot really place where the Jochum recording goes wrong for me, but I seldom make it through the entire symphony... much less the first movement.

You need to get Kubelik's 3rd with BRSO (Sony) and Haitink's 3rd with the VPO (on Philips). Tintner's orchestra is distinctly subpar.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 11, 2007, 10:22:25 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 04:35:21 AM
Barenboim's Berlin 9th (available separately from the box, I think) is probably the best thing in his cycle...which means it's very good indeed.

Very good, yes, but I still prefer the earlier CSO version.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jwinter on June 11, 2007, 10:49:42 AM
Quote from: George on June 11, 2007, 05:26:04 AM
I have and enjoy Barbirolli's and Karajan's Gold (more expensive) live version.  :)

I assume you mean for the 8th?  I think Bill was asking about the 9th.  I like Barbirolli's 8th, but his BBC 9th is not so hot, and the sound is lousy IMO.

Lots of good recs here for the 9th.  I'll toss in another vote for Bruno Walter, though the Orfeo Kubelik is also superb.  Giulini is excellent as well, and certainly fits the slow & dark criteria (he also has a nice version on DVD with a rehearsal sequence, if you're into that sort of thing).  The Furtwangler is very intense, I don't think I'd recommend it as a first recording, but if you end up enjoying the 9th and want a 2nd alternative, look no further.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: George on June 11, 2007, 12:49:35 PM
Quote from: jwinter on June 11, 2007, 10:49:42 AM
I assume you mean for the 8th?  I think Bill was asking about the 9th.  I like Barbirolli's 8th, but his BBC 9th is not so hot, and the sound is lousy IMO.

Lots of good recs here for the 9th.  I'll toss in another vote for Bruno Walter, though the Orfeo Kubelik is also superb.  Giulini is excellent as well, and certainly fits the slow & dark criteria (he also has a nice version on DVD with a rehearsal sequence, if you're into that sort of thing).  The Furtwangler is very intense, I don't think I'd recommend it as a first recording, but if you end up enjoying the 9th and want a 2nd alternative, look no further.

No I messed up worse than that. I was recommending M9.  ::)

Sorry about the confusion.  :-\
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 11, 2007, 12:52:43 PM
I just finished listening to Böhm's 1936 4th with the Sächsische (aka Dresden) Staatskapelle. I have to say, it is a unique reading and hard to make out what exactly was "Romantic" about it ;). It is very quick--too much so; nicht zu schnell did not compute, I supose. I know some are on the outs with Böhm's '73 VPO recording because he does have relatively brisk timings, but it is wholy expansive compared to this early recording. The bright side, the scherzo is very aggressively 'moving' and really flies. It does not feel as energetic as Jochum's BPO sherzo even with the faster timings. But that may have more to do with the gorgeous DG sound on that Jochum cycle.

It also didn't help that the transfer source was probably not in very good shape (1995 Golden Memories). There was more hiss and popping than I could tolerate, and there seemed to be a warp in the source, so there is a background squeek that becomes more prominant as the needle approaches what would be the center of the record--moreso on the first two movements. It only accentuates the already frenetic performance... and not positively.

The transfer on Furtwängler's 1944 9th (1996 Iron Needle), however, is just about perfect... though it may only be due to listening to that bad recording just before it. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on June 11, 2007, 01:22:15 PM
Quote from: beclemund on June 11, 2007, 12:52:43 PM
The transfer on Furtwängler's 1944 9th (1996 Iron Needle), however, is just about perfect... though it may only be due to listening to that bad recording just before it. :)
Probably. The Iron Needle transfer is actually a pirate copy of the DG one with reverb added and heavy noise filtering.

M&A or DG (if they can be found) are to be preferred.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 01:28:45 PM
Quote from: beclemund on June 11, 2007, 12:52:43 PM
I just finished listening to Böhm's 1936 4th with the Sächsische (aka Dresden) Staatskapelle. I have to say, it is a unique reading and hard to make out what exactly was "Romantic" about it ;). It is very quick--too much so; nicht zu schnell did not compute, I supose. I know some are on the outs with Böhm's '73 VPO recording because he does have relatively brisk timings, but it is wholy expansive compared to this early recording. The bright side, the scherzo is very aggressively 'moving' and really flies. It does not feel as energetic as Jochum's BPO sherzo even with the faster timings. But that may have more to do with the gorgeous DG sound on that Jochum cycle.

It also didn't help that the transfer source was probably not in very good shape (1995 Golden Memories). There was more hiss and popping than I could tolerate, and there seemed to be a warp in the source, so there is a background squeek that becomes more prominant as the needle approaches what would be the center of the record--moreso on the first two movements. It only accentuates the already frenetic performance... and not positively.

Interesting review. Thanks. One more bit of proof that performances overall have been getting slower and slower since the first half of the last century?

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Novi on June 11, 2007, 01:53:26 PM
Quote from: edward on June 11, 2007, 01:22:15 PM
Probably. The Iron Needle transfer is actually a pirate copy of the DG one with reverb added and heavy noise filtering.

M&A or DG (if they can be found) are to be preferred.

The Furtwangler can be found in this DG box:

(http://images.ciao.com/ide/images/products/normal/587/Wilhelm_Furtwangler_an_Anniversary_Tribute_Box_Set_Various__1481587.jpg)

or as a single disk from  hmv japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1839461).

:)


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: George on June 11, 2007, 01:57:04 PM
Quote from: Novitiate on June 11, 2007, 01:53:26 PM
The Furtwangler can be found in this DG box:

(http://images.ciao.com/ide/images/products/normal/587/Wilhelm_Furtwangler_an_Anniversary_Tribute_Box_Set_Various__1481587.jpg)

or as a single disk from  hmv japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1839461).

:)




Or here for $1.35: 

http://www.classicalmusicmobile.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=466 (http://www.classicalmusicmobile.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=466)

:D

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 02:15:33 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 11, 2007, 10:22:25 AM
Very good, yes, but I still prefer the earlier CSO version.

As does the Hurwitzer. I suppose I am in the minority here but his Chicago Bruckner doesn't pull me in like the Berlin does. Come to think of it, there is very little Bruckner by American orchestras I do like. The Dohnányi/Cleveland Fifth. Szell's Eighth. That's about it. I'm sure M could tell us why that is  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 11, 2007, 02:19:06 PM
Quote from: edward on June 11, 2007, 01:22:15 PMProbably. The Iron Needle transfer is actually a pirate copy of the DG one with reverb added and heavy noise filtering.

M&A or DG (if they can be found) are to be preferred.

Thank you for the heads up, Edward. I will be sure to find either the DG or Music & Arts release when I add this fine performance to my collection. I wonder what the library will do if I alert them to the nature of the pressing I borrowed from them.

Quote from: Novitiate on June 11, 2007, 01:53:26 PM
The Furtwangler can be found in this DG box:

(http://images.ciao.com/ide/images/products/normal/587/Wilhelm_Furtwangler_an_Anniversary_Tribute_Box_Set_Various__1481587.jpg)

That'll do it.  ;D

Thanks!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on June 11, 2007, 02:25:53 PM
Quote from: beclemund on June 11, 2007, 02:19:06 PM
Thank you for the heads up, Edward. I will be sure to find either the DG or Music & Arts release when I add this fine performance to my collection. I wonder what the library will do if I alert them to the nature of the pressing I borrowed from them.
Probably nothing. The laws against piracy are effectively unenforceable when it it comes to such recordings (how do you prove it's someone else's transfer when extra filtering has been applied anyway?).

I just try to stay away from dubious labels like Iron Needle, Golden Memories, Grammofono 2000 and Urania (particularly when no remastering engineer is credited, or the one credited is the near-ubiquitous Alessandro Nava).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 11, 2007, 02:28:46 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 02:15:33 PM
As does the Hurwitzer. I suppose I am in the minority here but his Chicago Bruckner doesn't pull me in like the Berlin does. Come to think of it, there is very little Bruckner by American orchestras I do like. The Dohnányi/Cleveland Fifth. Szell's Eighth. That's about it. I'm sure M could tell us why that is  ;D

It depends. There is a lot of Bruckner by non-American orchestras that is equally not compelling. It's really more a function of the conductor, I think. But it's hard to fault Giulini's CSO 9th. Some of the Bruckner Masur did with NYPO was outstanding. The absolute hands down finest 8th I ever heard live was NYPO with Eschenbach (he's doing the 7th with the CSO at Ravinia this summer which I'm greatly looking forward to). I heard 4, 5, 7 and 9 live (in some cases multiple times) with Barenboim CSO all of which were outstanding, a Carnegie 4th and a Berlin tour 9th ranking among my most memorable Bruckner experiences ever. I'd have to say though that the most consistently great Bruckner I have heard live has been with the Concertgebouw (an unforgettable 7th with Chailly and a searing 9th with Haitink, in particular).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 11, 2007, 02:45:59 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 01:28:45 PMInteresting review. Thanks. One more bit of proof that performances overall have been getting slower and slower since the first half of the last century?

It may have more to do with the evolution of recording media...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 02:46:33 PM
Was able to sample Giulini but cannot find streams of Furtwängler, Walter, Kubelik or Haitink for that matter.....is this stuff classified Sarge?  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: George on June 11, 2007, 02:48:12 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 02:46:33 PM
Was able to sample Giulini but cannot find streams of Furtwängler, Walter, Kubelik or Haitink for that matter.....is this stuff classified Sarge?  8)

Here's a sample of the Furtwangler:

Quote from: George on June 11, 2007, 01:57:04 PM
Or here for $1.35: 

http://www.classicalmusicmobile.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=466 (http://www.classicalmusicmobile.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=466)

:D


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 02:54:05 PM
Quote from: George on June 11, 2007, 02:48:12 PM
Here's a sample of the Furtwangler:


What is the date on that George and who is the ensemble....it is quite good.

Never mind buddy, got it!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 03:06:16 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 02:46:33 PM
Was able to sample Giulini but cannot find streams of Furtwängler, Walter, Kubelik or Haitink for that matter.....is this stuff classified Sarge?  8)

The Furtwängler is so powerful it's classified Cosmic Top Secret Atomal. Luckily, I have that clearance. I'm only authorized to give you short clips though.

Furtwängler Ninth (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9817449/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Novi on June 11, 2007, 04:23:06 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 02:46:33 PM
Was able to sample Giulini but cannot find streams of Furtwängler, Walter, Kubelik or Haitink for that matter.....is this stuff classified Sarge?  8)

Walter can be found  here (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/lang/en/currency/GBP/rsk/hitlist/rk/home/hnum/2743589), assuming we're talking about the ColSO recording. The samples for the 9th are the 4th row down :).

Haitink (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7876129/rk/home/rsk/hitlist), Concertgebouw.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 04:40:08 PM
First of all, thank you very much to everyone for all your efforts/reviews here and the digging up of samples for me.....all was most helpful.  Out of the four that I have sampled the results are:

1st Giulini
2nd Walter
3rd Furtwängler
4th Haitink

I still need to sample the Kubelik, if samples are to be found, but I have to say that any of the above would be a nice addition to my shelf.  However, I would want another recording if I only had the Furtwängler....liked it more than Haitink, but still was missing something that Giulini and Walter had to offer....maybe save that one for my historic section.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 04:48:34 PM
Quote from: beclemund on June 11, 2007, 02:45:59 PM
It may have more to do with the evolution of recording media...

That's always been my suspicion. Hard to prove though.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 11, 2007, 04:59:38 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 04:40:08 PMFirst of all, thank you very much to everyone for all your efforts/reviews here and the digging up of samples for me.....all was most helpful.  Out of the four that I have sampled the results are:

1st Giulini
2nd Walter
3rd Furtwängler
4th Haitink

I still need to sample the Kubelik, if samples are to be found, but I have to say that any of the above would be a nice addition to my shelf.  However, I would want another recording if I only had the Furtwängler....liked it more than Haitink, but still was missing something that Giulini and Walter had to offer....maybe save that one for my historic section.

The Giulini will be immensely satisfying, I am certain. I suppose I have a bit of a bias against historic recordings, so while I acknowledge the Furtwängler is an engaging performance, I cannot get over the sound limitations, so I would not want it to be my only Ninth. I do prefer the broader, expansive accounts very often, so I cannot wait until the Celibidache EMI box arrives later this week to explore those Munich performances.

[edit: I just ordered the Walter 9th for under 6 USD from an Amazon reseller... nothing to lose there. ;)]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 11, 2007, 06:26:02 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 04:40:08 PM

I still need to sample the Kubelik, if samples are to be found...

Bogey, I searched in vain for some samples for the Kubelik 9th. In lieu of that I offer a review from the Hurwitzer on Classics Today. (http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=3683) Note his 'reference' picks.

BTW, timings for the Kubelik are as follows:

23:58
10:25
26:17

Compared to the times listed by Sarge:

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 05:43:50 AM
Giulini         28:02   10:39   29:30
Klemperer    26:43   11:23   27:12
Barenboim   25:30   10:41    27:17   
Haitink        25:11   10:51   26:28
Abendroth    23:24    8:58    21:34
Jochum        23:06    9:49    27:39


FWIW, Kubelik's 9th is worlds away from his Mahler. Kubelik tends to keep his Mahler a bit on the 'lighter' side but this Bruckner 9th is another matter.

Dark, brooding, introspective, and revelatory.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Heather Harrison on June 11, 2007, 07:01:30 PM
When I get ready to buy more recordings of Bruckner's symphonies, I'll have to go back through all of the recommendations here.

Anyway, I listened to Nos. 4 and 5 today.  Like 1 and 2, there is a striking contrast between these.  No. 4 is big and powerful, at times sounding Wagnerian.  It is immediately appealing and easy to like.  The "Hunt" scherzo is quite exciting, and I like the contrast of the more delicate trio.  The slow movement exhibits and interesting range of emotions; at times it sounds like a funeral march, while other passages take on a more positive mood.

No. 5 seems to be heading in a different direction; the Wagnerian grandeur is much diminished, and it is replaced by a more austere, introspective mood.  I sense a great deal of emotional depth here, and after only one hearing, I feel like I have barely scratched the surface and there is likely a lot more to be discovered.  There are frequent shifts of mood.  In particular, the scherzo starts out rather dark and stormy, but quickly shifts to a brighter phrase.  In the finale, I was unsure until the very end whether I thought it would end on a tragic or a triumphant note; it kept me in suspense for a long time.

It would be difficult to pick a favorite so far; there is enough variation in the style that I might pick a different one depending on my mood.  However, for some reason I felt a deeper emotional connection with the Fifth than with the others; I have a feeling I will be exploring this one more deeply after I finish with the set.

This type of exploration is unusual for me; typically, I explore a composer's symphonies (and other works) piecemeal.  In this case, I bought the set after having only limited previous exposure to this composer's symphonies.  Nos. 7 and 9 are the only ones that were previously in my collection, and I hadn't spent a lot of time with them.  Now, the three great masses are added to my list; I found Jochum's performances in a Barnes & Noble today; I'll post my impressions of them as I listen to them.  Oddly enough, this was the only Bruckner CD there today; none of the symphonies were present.

Heather
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 07:06:43 PM
Quote from: Heather Harrison on June 11, 2007, 07:01:30 PM
When I get ready to buy more recordings of Bruckner's symphonies, I'll have to go back through all of the recommendations here.

Heather

Yes, this just became my No. 1 Bruckner resource guide.

Don,
Thanks for the review and trying to dig up some samples.  I was hoping that it would say what a "weak" performance it was so I could cross it off my list.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 11, 2007, 07:15:29 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 07:06:43 PM
Don,
Thanks for the review and trying to dig up some samples. 

Pleasure, Bill!

QuoteI was hoping that it would say what a "weak" perforance it was so I could cross it off my list.  :)

0:) :D


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 11, 2007, 09:23:43 PM
Bogey,

There might be a sample of Kubelik's 9th here... (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=&sql=43:94263)

Good luck!


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 12, 2007, 04:48:51 AM
Footnote on Karajan's DG 3rd: a superb performance, but marred by a bad trumpet clam at the worst possible moment: the highest trumpet note at the exultant climax of the coda of IV  :(

FWIW, my favourite 9ths are (alphabetically)

Giulini VPO
Keilberth
Klemperer
Leitner
Mehta
Wand NDR in Hamburg (NOT the impossibly reverberated Lübeck one).

The Keilberth, Leitner and Wand currently hold the top spot. Note that the Leitner is available as a cheap download at eclassical. I've had it on disc for the past 5 years and it's still firmly in place as my overall 'benchmark' recording. 

Of equal artistic value, but flawed by technical or orchestral limitations:

Abendroth
Delman
Furtwängler
Kubelik (I find the orchestra audibly tires in III and it mars the end result somewhat; notwithstanding, it's a magnificent interpretation, esp. in I)

Other very satisfying worthies:

Barenboim CSO
Blomstedt Gewandhaus
Giulini CSO (M Forever pointed to a horn clam in the introduction about 1' in and I find it hard to get past it now  :'( .).
Walter

Still not listened to (or too long absent from my shelves): the BPO Karajans (2) and Wand.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on June 12, 2007, 04:56:48 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 12, 2007, 04:48:51 AM
Leitner
I have the Leitner 6th on the way to me: would it provide a good way to assess the potential merits of his 9th?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 12, 2007, 05:23:11 AM
If it's the SWF production (Freiburg and Baden-Baden), yes, absolutely. Same granitic, high voltage, uneccentric playing and conducting and superb recording. That's one of my top picks for that work, and it comes with his indispensable Hartmann 6th.

There's another Leitner 6th out there (Basle, Switzerland) which is quite different. I love that one too, but it's not one for everyday consumption.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on June 12, 2007, 05:24:19 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 12, 2007, 05:23:11 AM
If it's the SWF production (Freiburg and Baden-Baden), yes, absolutely. Same granitic, high voltage, uneccentric playing and conducting and superb recording. That's one of my top picks for that work, and it comes with his indispensable Hartmann 6th.

There's another Leitner 6th out there (Basle, Switzerland) which is quite different. I love that one too, but it's not one for everyday consumption.
Thanks.

It is the one with the Hartmann: I'll be interested to see how that compares to Kubelik and Fricsay too.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 12, 2007, 05:59:11 AM
Quote from: Heather Harrison on June 11, 2007, 07:01:30 PM
When I get ready to buy more recordings of Bruckner's symphonies, I'll have to go back through all of the recommendations here.

Anyway, I listened to Nos. 4 and 5 today.  Like 1 and 2, there is a striking contrast between these.  No. 4 is big and powerful, at times sounding Wagnerian.  It is immediately appealing and easy to like.  The "Hunt" scherzo is quite exciting, and I like the contrast of the more delicate trio.  The slow movement exhibits and interesting range of emotions; at times it sounds like a funeral march, while other passages take on a more positive mood.

No. 5 seems to be heading in a different direction; the Wagnerian grandeur is much diminished, and it is replaced by a more austere, introspective mood.  I sense a great deal of emotional depth here, and after only one hearing, I feel like I have barely scratched the surface and there is likely a lot more to be discovered.  There are frequent shifts of mood.  In particular, the scherzo starts out rather dark and stormy, but quickly shifts to a brighter phrase.  In the finale, I was unsure until the very end whether I thought it would end on a tragic or a triumphant note; it kept me in suspense for a long time.


If you like #4 you owe it to yourself to listen to the original 1874 version of this work such as this one:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/611C6WZDA9L._AA240_.jpg)
Dennis Russell Davis conducting the Bruckner Orchestra of Linz in a 2003 live recording at a place called the Brucknerhaus.
The 3rd movment is another piece of music. The other movements are so drastic from the Jochum version that you won't recognize it much. It is not as brazenly scored and is more reserved that the later version. I think the later version is vastly superior but this one is a must-hear if you are a Bruckner fan.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marple on June 12, 2007, 07:20:18 AM
About original versions this just slipped my feets:

Simone Young's work as music director of the Hamburg Philharmonic and general manager of the Hamburg State Opera has created a furor – both at the opera house as well as in the Laeiszhalle, where symphony concerts are held. One of her major focuses will be the performance of Bruckner symphonies in their original versions – a series to be documented by OehmsClassics. The live recording of her March 2006 concert of Anton Bruckner's Symphony No. 2 in the original version from 1872 is now available. Listening to this performance, it is amazing how much impetuousness and originality, in the formal sense, Bruckner's music lost in later "toned down" revisions. The original version of the "Second", published by William Carragan in 2005, shows the entire creative energy of a symphonic composer who has set out to conquer the musical world.

(http://real1.phononet.de/cover/small/614/486/cx03erjm.j31)

Have any of you heard this recording?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 12, 2007, 07:46:20 AM
Didn't hear Simone Young's Bruckner, but the description is very tempting. Tintner also uses that original edition of the second. While very interesting, there's no denying that he stretches the tempi to unnatural lengths. A more bracing interpretaiton would probably give a better idea of what this edition is all about.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 12, 2007, 10:56:55 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 12, 2007, 07:46:20 AM
Didn't hear Simone Young's Bruckner, but the description is very tempting. Tintner also uses that original edition of the second. While very interesting, there's no denying that he stretches the tempi to unnatural lengths. A more bracing interpretaiton would probably give a better idea of what this edition is all about.

I'm curious, too. FWIW, Young apprenticed with Barenboim, so she should know her way around a Bruckner symphony.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on June 12, 2007, 11:47:09 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 12, 2007, 04:48:51 AM
FWIW, my favourite 9ths are (alphabetically)

Giulini VPO
Klemperer
Leitner
Mehta
Wand NDR in Hamburg (NOT the impossibly reverberated Lübeck one).

The Leitner and Wand currently hold the top spot. Note that the Leitner is available as a cheap download at eclassical. I've had it on disc for the past 5 years and it's still firmly in place as my overall 'benchmark' recording. 

Of equal artistic value, but flawed by technical or orchestral limitations:

Abendroth
Delman
Furtwängler
Kubelik (I find the orchestra audibly tires in III and it mars the end result somewhat; notwithstanding, it's a magnificent interpretation, esp. in I)

Other very satisfying worthies:

Barenboim CSO
Blomstedt Gewandhaus
Giulini CSO (M Forever pointed to a horn clam in the introduction about 1' in and I find it hard to get past it now  :'( .).
Walter

No Keilberth?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marple on June 12, 2007, 12:13:43 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 10:56:55 AM
Young apprenticed with Barenboim, so she should know her way around a Bruckner symphony.

Yes you can be pretty much sure about that! ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 12:24:29 PM
Quote from: Marple on June 12, 2007, 07:20:18 AM
(http://real1.phononet.de/cover/small/614/486/cx03erjm.j31)

Have any of you heard this recording?


Only short clips  here at JPC (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9699658/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)

Sounds interesting...the Finale taken at a much faster pace than her mentor Barenboim.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 12, 2007, 12:58:58 PM
Young's 2nd gets a review on SA-CD.net (http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/4461) and a run down of other non-Carragan version 2nds are also provided for comparison's sake. Sounds like an interesting reading. The review mentions the timings are identical to Tintner's Carragan 2nd on Naxos (20:54 10:59 18:06 21:19 according to my iTunes library) but does not make any other mention of that performance beyond that coincidence.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 02:29:51 PM
Quote from: beclemund on June 12, 2007, 12:58:58 PM
Young's 2nd gets a review on SA-CD.net (http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/4461) and a run down of other non-Carragan version 2nds are also provided for comparison's sake. Sounds like an interesting reading. The review mentions the timings are identical to Tintner's Carragan 2nd on Naxos (20:54 10:59 18:06 21:19 according to my iTunes library)

Identical to Tintner??? Maybe Young is the new Joyce Hatto  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 02:44:17 PM
Quote from: beclemund on June 12, 2007, 12:58:58 PM
Young's 2nd gets a review on SA-CD.net (http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/4461) and a run down of other non-Carragan version 2nds are also provided for comparison's sake. Sounds like an interesting reading. The review mentions the timings are identical to Tintner's Carragan 2nd on Naxos (20:54 10:59 18:06 21:19 according to my iTunes library) but does not make any other mention of that performance beyond that coincidence.

Interesting review. Thanks for posting the link. It's funny how differently we respond to music. He trashed all my favorite Seconds: Wand, Jochum/BRSO (it's better than the Dresden), Barenboim/Berlin (that "lumbering" Finale is the very reason I love it)...well, he did have nice things to say about Stein. I didn't realize that was now available on CD. Time to replace my LP.

The odd thing is, though, he didn't compare Young directly to Tintner. I'd like to know why I should invest in Young if I already own Tintner. He didn't give me a reason.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 12, 2007, 03:08:36 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 02:44:17 PMThe odd thing is, though, he didn't compare Young directly to Tintner. I'd like to know why I should invest in Young if I already own Tintner. He didn't give me a reason.

I was curious about that myself and with the coincidence on the timings, I was hoping he would tell us what contrasts to expect... at the least. I do not have any recordings featuring the Hamburg Philharmonic, so it may be an interesting place to start.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 12, 2007, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 02:44:17 PM
The odd thing is, though, he didn't compare Young directly to Tintner. I'd like to know why I should invest in Young if I already own Tintner. He didn't give me a reason.

I'll give you one: her orchestra can't possibly be worse than Tintner's.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 03:32:30 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 03:29:29 PM
I'll give you one: her orchestra can't possibly be worse than Tintner's.

That's what I'm thinking. But is it THAT much better? 16 Euro better?

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 12, 2007, 04:14:55 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 03:29:29 PMI'll give you one: her orchestra can't possibly be worse than Tintner's.

I think you are being more than unfair to the RSNO. Sure, the group lacks the Bruckner resumé of a Vienna, Berlin, Dresden or even Munich or Bavarian group, but they certainly did provide Tintner's vision with capable play. The performances and sound on much of the Tintner cycle is competent and engaging... particularly considering they were often working from non-standard repertoire (in terms of the editions recorded) throughout the cycle. The first and the third from that cycle are among some of my favorites of all of the Bruckner recordings I have heard, but then, I am far from an expert. ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on June 12, 2007, 04:18:10 PM
Quote from: beclemund on June 12, 2007, 04:14:55 PM
I think you are being more than unfair to the RSNO. Sure, the group lacks the Bruckner resumé of a Vienna, Berlin, Dresden or even Munich or Bavarian group, but they certainly did provide Tintner's vision with capable play. The performances and sound on much of the Tintner cycle is competent and engaging... particularly considering they were often working from non-standard repertoire (in terms of the editions recorded) throughout the cycle. The first and the third from that cycle are among some of my favorites of all of the Bruckner recordings I have heard, but then, I am far from an expert. ;)
IIRC, the Tintner 2nd is with the National Symphony Orchestra of Ireland, which is distinctly wobblier an ensemble than the RSNO (not that I am a fan of the RSNO, having put up with far too many poor performances from them back when I lived in Scotland).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 12, 2007, 04:34:39 PM
Quote from: edward on June 12, 2007, 04:18:10 PMIIRC, the Tintner 2nd is with the National Symphony Orchestra of Ireland, which is distinctly wobblier an ensemble than the RSNO (not that I am a fan of the RSNO, having put up with far too many poor performances from them back when I lived in Scotland).

Ah, you are correct. Maybe I spoke too soon. ;)

I usually do not get beyond Giulini's 2nd. I will have to revisit Tintner's to see how the NSOI performs.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on June 12, 2007, 04:35:15 PM
I have some off-air recordings of Simone Young conducting the Oslo PO in Bruckner, and they're fine.  Not particularly distinctive, but fine.

However I really do not know why anyone bothers with that Carragan edition of the 1872 #2.  I have both the Tintner and the (much better) Eichhorn - but neither comes close to comparing with e.g. Giulini/VSO or Konwitschny/BerlinRSO conducting the (1877) Haas edition.  Stick with that, would be my advice.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 12, 2007, 04:36:11 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 03:29:29 PM
I'll give you one: her orchestra can't possibly be worse than Tintner's.

She looks really bored in that picture. You sure she know what she's doing?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 12, 2007, 04:38:50 PM
Quote from: Choo Choo on June 12, 2007, 04:35:15 PM
However I really do not know why anyone bothers with that Carragan edition of the 1872 #2.  I have both the Tintner and the (much better) Eichhorn - but neither comes close to comparing with e.g. Giulini/VSO or Konwitschny/BerlinRSO conducting the (1877) Haas edition.  Stick with that, would be my advice.

Isn't Carragan the same who inflicted upon us that atrociously cleaned up Hollywood-ish performing version of the finale to the 9th that Talmi recorded? To anyone who has heard Harnoncourt's performance and lecture about the surviving bits of the original, the Carragan completion is completely unlistenable. It's as if he tried to make all the errors Harnoncourt complains of.

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 12, 2007, 04:36:11 PM
She looks really bored in that picture. You sure she know what she's doing?

She looks more like she's having a contest of willpower with a disobedient second clarinet.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on June 12, 2007, 04:40:57 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 12, 2007, 04:38:50 PM
Isn't Carragan the same who inflicted upon us that atrociously cleaned up Hollywood-ish performing version of the finale to the 9th that Talmi recorded? To anyone who has heard Harnoncourt's performance and lecture about the surviving bits of the original, the Carragan completion is completely unlistenable. It's as if he tried to make all the errors Harnoncourt complains of.

Exactly.  The very same.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 12, 2007, 04:56:13 PM
Quote from: Drasko on June 12, 2007, 11:47:09 AM
No Keilberth?

I knew I was missing one! :o

Thanks, I've corrected my post.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Heather Harrison on June 12, 2007, 05:25:34 PM
Today, I took a break from the symphonies and listened to the D minor Mass (No. 1).  Although it is earlier than the symphonies I have listened to, I can detect Bruckner's distinctive style in it.  It is a work of both great power and serenity.  I especially loved the very lyrical Benedictus.  The sound quality in Jochum's recording is generally good, but as is usually the case with older analog recordings (1972, in this case), the choir distorts a bit in loud passages.  I'm glad I stumbled onto this set in the store; it is a nice complement to his set of symphonies.

I have noted with interest how many different versions exist for the symphonies; this must certainly create a mess (and therefore a lot of work) for musicologists.  After I have had some time with the symphonies and masses that I have now, I might seek out some of the alternate versions that have been mentioned here (or if I stumble upon them in a store, I'll grab them).  I am also curious about the Ninth Symphony and the various attempts to bring the fragmentary finale to the public.  I'll take note of what people are posting here about it.

Heather
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on June 12, 2007, 05:37:08 PM
I wasn't intending to post in this thread - but now that I'm here, I feel I should mention that beclemund's unfortunate experience with the 1936 Böhm #4 - though typical, sadly - is not a true representation of this fine performance.

The problem with these pirate transfers is that they take any old ratty set of 78s, and record them through any old equipment - often without bothering to apply the correct equalisation - or even play them at exactly the right speed - and then try to "process" them with crudely added reverb / bass lift / treble cut / whatever - and the result is, generally, unlistenable.

Fortunately that 1936 Böhm / Dresden #4 exists in a superb transfer on Dutton - who appear to have taken a virgin set of shellacs and read them with a laser rather than a pickup - and the result is remarkable for its age.  I checked this again a couple of nights ago - and for the first time, actually read the sleeve notes, which say:

QuoteComparing this 1936 recording with the Decca Vienna Philharmonic recording Karl Böhm made 38 years on, one finds that the Vienna Philharmonic performance has slightly slower speeds and a glowing, streamlined sound;  but it is the warmer, distinctive timbre of the Dresden orchestra which perfectly echoes the composer's title Romantic.  The sounds of nature, and in particular the first movement fanfares with their old-world feel, the resignation of the second, the thrill of the hunt in the third, and the classes of poetry and high drama in the Finale, are perfectly balanced in this splendid recording.

I had not read this before - but it expresses exactly how I feel about this recording.  It's not just that I prefer it to the later (recommended - and good) VPO recording, but that it has a special, rare quality, that you just don't find nowadays.

Worth seeking out.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on June 12, 2007, 06:07:41 PM
Quote from: Choo Choo on June 12, 2007, 05:37:08 PM
The problem with these pirate transfers is that they take any old ratty set of 78s, and record them through any old equipment - often without bothering to apply the correct equalisation - or even play them at exactly the right speed - and then try to "process" them with crudely added reverb / bass lift / treble cut / whatever - and the result is, generally, unlistenable.
Often they don't even take any set of 78s at all: just "process" someone else's transfer that's already been issued on CD. Why bother locating old discs when you can steal the results of someone else's hard work?

Of course, even Urania has occasionally done their own transfer work: there was iirc a Rosbaud Bruckner 8 they did transfer from the original 78s, except they forgot to transfer one disc from the middle of the adagio. Ahem.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on June 12, 2007, 06:09:27 PM
Yes, I have that.  Sad.  The rest of it is rather good.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 12, 2007, 06:35:38 PM
Thank you for that information, Choo Choo. And thank you for the more promising review of that '36 performance. I will definitely, seek out an alternative issue to add to my personal collection. Those historic recordings were all from a local library (that Böhm performance and two Furtwängler performances), and it seems that they are pirate labels in each case. It is  unfortunate. I may see if I can replace their volumes with legal transfers (and probably higher quality ones) after speaking with the head librarian. Then everyone who visits the library can enjoy better transfers and the *real* labels can be compensated for the earlier theft.

I must admit, I am very unfamiliar with the historical recordings market, so I was not aware of the extent of pirate copies in a regular library collection.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on June 12, 2007, 06:54:24 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 12, 2007, 04:36:11 PM
She looks really bored in that picture. You sure she know what she's doing?

Opposed to the Wand discs where he looks like he's already died? :P
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on June 12, 2007, 08:51:15 PM
Quote from: Choo Choo on June 12, 2007, 05:37:08 PM
Fortunately that 1936 Böhm / Dresden #4 exists in a superb transfer on Dutton - who appear to have taken a virgin set of shellacs and read them with a laser rather than a pickup - and the result is remarkable for its age.  I checked this again a couple of nights ago - and for the first time, actually read the sleeve notes, which say:


Worth seeking out.

You made me interested so I did a bit of search and it appears that at this moment disc is only available directly from Dutton. That is not the end of it - it seems that their stock on that one is so low that the order can't be placed directly online but it has to be e-mailed or phoned in.
So if anybody wants it my advice would be - be quick

http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDEA5007 (http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDEA5007)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on June 13, 2007, 02:03:18 AM
Well I hope no-one buys this based solely on my recommendation, as my tastes in these things are well known to be, shall we say, somewhat "individual".  Which is why I try to stay out of the discussions, mostly.

However it is certainly true that once a Dutton issue sells out, that's it.  I was too slow off the mark when Dutton were flogging off their Jensen/Nielsen recordings, and once I realised what I'd missed, no amount of pleading would get Michael Dutton to source me a copy.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 13, 2007, 06:33:34 AM
Quote from: Heather Harrison on June 12, 2007, 05:25:34 PM
I am also curious about the Ninth Symphony and the various attempts to bring the fragmentary finale to the public.

If you're interested in the finale for the 9th, I would get the Harnoncourt/VPO recording first as it contains a performance of all surviving original fragments (which is actually quite a bit) as well as a lecture by Harnoncourt on what the finale would have been like if it had been completed (which is actually very informative as Harnoncourt also provides a general primer on Brucknerian symphonic structure). The early 80's Carragan completion (recorded by Talmi and others) is quite frankly wretched. It makes all the errors Harnoncourt assaults in his lecture, in particular it "corrects" many harmonic clashes without which Bruckner would not be Bruckner, thus turning it into undramatic mush. I am unfamiliar with the Samale/Mazucca version. Carragan revised his version 2003 and again 2006 (hopefully correcting his prior errors and incorporatnig newly discoevred original material) and there is also Marthe version from last year, which should also incorporate the most recent scholarship. But I have not heard either one of those and recordings of these are few and far between.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on June 13, 2007, 06:48:35 AM
I find the the Mazzucca/Cohrs/etc reconstruction makes a much more convincing case than that wretched Carragan effort.  Of the two recordings I have, Eichhorn/Linz is the better performance overall, but Wildner/Westphalia on Naxos is a good runner-up - and actually not a bad #9 with or without the Finale (and also cheap, if it's still available.)

You do have to bear in mind that, as Robert Simpson puts it, "this is not a Mahler #10 situation".  If a Bruckner symphony is a cathedral, then what we here are the blocks in the stonemasons' yard round the back, from which it was intended that the missing North Transept would one day have been constructed.  A good deal of "creativity" goes into any attempt to make more of it than a forensic survey of the various bits.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 13, 2007, 06:57:44 AM
Quote from: Choo Choo on June 13, 2007, 06:48:35 AM
I find the the Mazzucca/Cohrs/etc reconstruction makes a much more convincing case than that wretched Carragan effort.  Of the two recordings I have, Eichhorn/Linz is the better performance overall, but Wildner/Westphalia on Naxos is a good runner-up - and actually not a bad #9 with or without the Finale (and also cheap, if it's still available.)

Thanks for that. I will seek out those discs. The Naxos at that price should be a fairly low risk purchase.

Quote from: Choo Choo on June 13, 2007, 06:48:35 AM
You do have to bear in mind that, as Robert Simpson puts it, "this is not a Mahler #10 situation".  If a Bruckner symphony is a cathedral, then what we here are the blocks in the stonemasons' yard round the back, from which it was intended that the missing North Transept would one day have been constructed.  A good deal of "creativity" goes into any attempt to make more of it than a forensic survey of the various bits.

Yes and no. Have you listened to the Harnoncourt? There is actually a substantial amount of the finale that Bruckner finished and completely orchestrated. The problem is that a number of transitions are missing and it's anybody's guess how he meant to get from one unrelated key to another. Also, the final section of the finale was supposed to be a gigantic fugue of the main themes from the 5th, 7th, 8th and the preceding movements of the 9th and we have at best scant information as to what that was supposed to look and sound like.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on June 13, 2007, 07:10:07 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 13, 2007, 06:57:44 AM
Have you listened to the Harnoncourt?

Yes I have.  Well, mostly.  My problem with that recording, as with all of Harnoncourt's Bruckner that I've heard (in the concert hall as well as on disk) is staying awake until the end.  One of these days I'm hoping to manage it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 13, 2007, 07:38:50 AM
Quote from: Choo Choo on June 13, 2007, 07:10:07 AM
Yes I have.  Well, mostly.  My problem with that recording, as with all of Harnoncourt's Bruckner that I've heard (in the concert hall as well as on disk) is staying awake until the end.  One of these days I'm hoping to manage it.

Well, you really need to only listen to the fragments of the finale. Those are not that long.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 13, 2007, 07:55:29 AM
Quote from: Choo Choo on June 13, 2007, 02:03:18 AMWell I hope no-one buys this based solely on my recommendation, as my tastes in these things are well known to be, shall we say, somewhat "individual".  Which is why I try to stay out of the discussions, mostly.

It was quite nearly compelling enough with the bad recording I listened to. With an understanding that it is far from a decent transfer, I am curious enough to hear what a good transfer might sound like. And in the end, I plan on donating it to the library, so even if I am disappointed by it, it will not be a lost cause. :)

I do enjoy Böhm's '73 Vienna recording, so it makes for an interesting exploration.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Heather Harrison on June 13, 2007, 07:43:55 PM
Today, I listened to Nos. 6 and 7 (and Mass No. 2).

Symphony No. 6 seemed like somewhat of a continuation of No. 5; a similar dark, introspective mood was present.  However, the mood seemed a bit more varied and I tried to figure out what this symphony had to say, with only limited success.  To not quite "get" a late Romantic symphony on the first hearing isn't entirely unusual; if anything, it is a good sign that there might be some real depth to it.  This is one that I will be spending more time with.

Symphony No. 7, in contrast, exhibited a return to the power and grandeur of some of the earlier ones, and was more immediately easy to appreciate.  It would be hard for me to find words to describe the slow movement; it is almost a half-hour of sheer beauty that had me completely absorbed.

Mass No. 2 is more austere and serene than No. 1.  It lacks soloists, and the orchestra consists only of woodwinds and brass.  It is polyphonically rich (as is much of Bruckner's music) and, in a way, sounds both ancient and Romantic at the same time.  There is a lot going on here; I will certainly have to listen to it a few more times to gain a deeper understanding.

I'm about through the symphonies and masses; I suppose the next step will be to listen to some of them a few more times to gain a better understanding, and to collect some additional performances and check out alternate versions.  Bruckner certainly is a fascinating composer.

Heather
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 14, 2007, 06:05:25 AM
Quote from: Heather Harrison on June 13, 2007, 07:43:55 PM
Symphony No. 6 seemed like somewhat of a continuation of No. 5; a similar dark, introspective mood was present.  However, the mood seemed a bit more varied and I tried to figure out what this symphony had to say, with only limited success.  To not quite "get" a late Romantic symphony on the first hearing isn't entirely unusual; if anything, it is a good sign that there might be some real depth to it.  This is one that I will be spending more time with.

Not sure I agree with that. The 5th has that incredible, glorious finale with that massive fugue that is kicked off by the clarinet's quizzical interruptions of quotations from the prior three movements. It's rather unique in Bruckner's output. The 6th by contrast is in many ways Bruckner's most intimate symphony.

Quote from: Heather Harrison on June 13, 2007, 07:43:55 PM
Symphony No. 7, in contrast, exhibited a return to the power and grandeur of some of the earlier ones, and was more immediately easy to appreciate.  It would be hard for me to find words to describe the slow movement; it is almost a half-hour of sheer beauty that had me completely absorbed.

It is also an endless exercise in inversion by contrary motion. It's really astounding how far Bruckner could take the concept.

Quote from: Heather Harrison on June 13, 2007, 07:43:55 PM
Mass No. 2 is more austere and serene than No. 1.  It lacks soloists, and the orchestra consists only of woodwinds and brass.  It is polyphonically rich (as is much of Bruckner's music) and, in a way, sounds both ancient and Romantic at the same time.  There is a lot going on here; I will certainly have to listen to it a few more times to gain a deeper understanding.

To me, Mass No. 2 has one of the most magical openings of any work in the entire musical catalogue. It is also a pinnacle of Bruckner's experimentation with Beethoven's concept from the first movement of the 9th where a theme gradually materializes out of nothingness. The openings of most of his symphonies starting with the 3rd are some variation of this idea, some more openly so (e.g. the 3rd which takes the actual melody of the theme from Beethoven's 9th as it's main theme and the 8th which takes the rhythm of the opening theme of Beethoven's 9th for the rhythm of its main theme).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 14, 2007, 06:15:49 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 14, 2007, 06:05:25 AM
Not sure I agree with that. The 5th has that incredible, glorious finale with that massive fugue that is kicked off by the clarinet's quizzical interruptions of quotations from the prior three movements. It's rather unique in Bruckner's output. The 6th by contrast is in many ways Bruckner's most intimate symphony.

Not sure I agree with that last statement. I hear, at least in the first movement, a wide-screen, cinematic sweep and grandeur. Nothing intimate about it. But then, the main theme sounds remarkably similar to the main theme of Lawrence of Arabia. Maybe if I could get that allusion out of my head it would sound more intimate. ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on June 14, 2007, 06:18:09 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 14, 2007, 06:05:25 AM
. . . kicked off by the clarinet's quizzical interruptions of quotations from the prior three movements. It's rather unique in Bruckner's output.

But . . . now, what does that remind me of?  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on June 14, 2007, 06:19:26 AM
Quote from: Heather Harrison on June 13, 2007, 07:43:55 PM
Mass No. 2 is more austere and serene than No. 1.  It lacks soloists, and the orchestra consists only of woodwinds and brass.  It is polyphonically rich (as is much of Bruckner's music) and, in a way, sounds both ancient and Romantic at the same time.  There is a lot going on here; I will certainly have to listen to it a few more times to gain a deeper understanding.

Yes, Heather, this made a very favorable impression when I heard it sung live here in Boston.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 14, 2007, 07:04:12 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 14, 2007, 06:15:49 AM
But then, the main theme sounds remarkably similar to the main theme of Lawrence of Arabia. Maybe if I could get that allusion out of my head it would sound more intimate. ;D

Now that's a stretch. I can see why you would say that though.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 14, 2007, 07:05:29 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 14, 2007, 06:18:09 AM
But . . . now, what does that remind me of?  8)

Yes, obviously. But LvB does it a bit differently.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 14, 2007, 09:52:18 AM
Quote from: Choo Choo on June 13, 2007, 02:03:18 AMHowever it is certainly true that once a Dutton issue sells out, that's it.  I was too slow off the mark when Dutton were flogging off their Jensen/Nielsen recordings, and once I realised what I'd missed, no amount of pleading would get Michael Dutton to source me a copy.

It would seem Dutton's last copy of Böhm's '36 4th is completely sold out now.  ;)

For others interested, however, there are two copies available from Amazon US marketplace sellers.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Philoctetes on June 14, 2007, 11:34:14 AM
I love the robustness of Bruckner's symphonies. They contain the element that I seek the most in the orchestral music I listen to, with the most frequency.

Lots of brass.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Heather Harrison on June 14, 2007, 05:18:58 PM
Today, I finished listening to the Bruckner sets.

The last two symphonies are so massive and complex that my first impressions are unlikely to do justice to them.  As with No. 7, both have massive nearly-half-hour slow movements which seemed to draw me into their sound world.  While the other movements may have more power and grandeur, it is these slow movements that I find especially appealing.  Within the other movements, I found the scherzo of No. 9 quite fascinating; it is quite a stormy piece, with a rather unusual trio.  I definitely want to listen to these symphonies a few more times before developing a strong opinion.  But so far, I like them very much.

Mass No. 3, like No. 1, includes soloists and the full symphony orchestra; it is a powerful, complex piece of music that varies considerably in mood.

This exercise in listening to Bruckner's symphonies and masses, one after another, over a relatively short time, has been fascinating.  I have gone through them and come up with first impressions, which may be unreliable.  Subsequent hearings will likely cause me to change my mind about some of the ideas I have posted here.  And for those pieces which I didn't find immediately accessible, subsequent hearings will help me understand them better.  Music this complex can seldom be understood well without repeated serious listening, so I can't claim to understand them now.

I am glad I finally got around to going through Bruckner's music; there is a lot here that I like, and I will likely be listening to these CDs often in the future.  Now I wish the Utah Symphony would perform a Bruckner symphony or mass; they do a great job with other late Romantic repertoire (i.e. Mahler, Elgar) so I am sure they would give a good performance of Bruckner's music.

Heather
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on June 15, 2007, 05:20:15 PM
Is it just me or does anyone hear a glimpse of classical music (Haydn, Mozart, early LvB) in Bruckner's symphonies? Also, the structure is always four movements...interesting.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Heather Harrison on June 15, 2007, 07:33:24 PM
I noted that too; I do find it interesting that he stuck to the four-movement form, while at the same time pushing the envelope in other ways.  Apparently, he considered Beethoven to be a strong influence, so it shouldn't be surprising to hear a bit of the influence of the later Classic period in his work.  I also noticed a bit of this while listening to his symphonies, and as I explore them more deeply, perhaps I will find more.

Heather
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 15, 2007, 08:29:52 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 15, 2007, 05:20:15 PM
Is it just me or does anyone hear a glimpse of classical music (Haydn, Mozart, early LvB) in Bruckner's symphonies? Also, the structure is always four movements...interesting.

That's one of my favorite things about Bruckner: he seems to be looking farther into the past and farther into the future at the same time. His chorales (whether for brass in his symphonies or for voices in his masses) hark back to plainchant and the entire Christian musical tradition, while his chromaticism, dissonances, orchestration and harmonic clashes look forward beyond late romanticism deep into modernism. That's what makes those enormous symphonies of his a continuing source of discovery and rediscovery.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on June 15, 2007, 10:36:12 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 15, 2007, 08:29:52 PM
That's one of my favorite things about Bruckner: he seems to be looking farther into the past and farther into the future at the same time. His chorales (whether for brass in his symphonies or for voices in his masses) hark back to plainchant and the entire Christian musical tradition, while his chromaticism, dissonances, orchestration and harmonic clashes look forward beyond late romanticism deep into modernism. That's what makes those enormous symphonies of his a continuing source of discovery and rediscovery.

Well said, gives a brief summary of the composer's style. Thank you  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on June 16, 2007, 12:31:20 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 15, 2007, 05:20:15 PM
Is it just me or does anyone hear a glimpse of classical music (Haydn, Mozart, early LvB) in Bruckner's symphonies? Also, the structure is always four movements...interesting.

I also hear some Schubert in his music is a primary influence, although I've never managed to pinpoint exactly which elements reflect this, more just a feel. Perhaps those effortlessly melodic scherzos are part of it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 16, 2007, 06:01:09 AM
Lethe, O Mensch: you're both right on target. There IS indeed a "back to the future" musical agenda in the Bruckner symphonies. And there IS a schubertian blend of easy melody and earthy gruffness in the scherzos. As for the beethovenian influence, that of the 9th symphony is very prominent, particularly the 'primeval' beginning of I which has inspired the openings of just about every Bruckner first movement and the recapitulatory devices of the Finale, which Bruckner has used and expanded in many of his own last movements.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Raisa on June 17, 2007, 04:51:03 AM
I'm a huge fan of Bruckner! Who are your top five Bruckner conductors?

This is my top five:

1) Herbert von Karajan
2) Bruno Walter
3) Sergiu Celibidache
4) Günter Wand
5) Eugen Jochum

Cheers! 8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on June 17, 2007, 05:11:30 AM
Quote from: Raisa on June 17, 2007, 04:51:03 AM
I'm a huge fan of Bruckner! Who are your top five Bruckner conductors?

Jochum (Enormous power, very good orchestras, no trace of the overly reverential playing of a lot of slow-as-snail modern conductors of the music)
[a significant gap]
Böhm (Is it wrong that I find Böhm's and Wand's interpretations overly similar? Very middle-ground and high quality, but I come out prefering Böhm)
Klemperer (Klemperer is always different, some of his performances are extremely driven to the point of sounding a little edgy)
Giulini (My favourite slow-coach)
Tennstedt (Didn't record as much as I'd have liked, so this is an eccentric choice, he did an awesome firey 8th with the BSO)

Honourable mentions: Wand, Boulez, Sinopoli, Karajan, Haitink, Harnoncourt, Walter... Abendroth did a fascinating 9th, very fast...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 17, 2007, 05:16:39 AM
This is an interesting subject. "Bruckner conductors" don't really exist as a breed. Conductors who recorded the symphonies as a cycle don't have a high batting average. Jochum is an exception here, although his best performances are to be found outside his two commercially released cycles. My favourite performances for each symphony were not recorded as part of a cycle. 

Conductors with extraordinary accounts of at least 2 of the symphonies are (my own list, in alphabetical order): Böhm (3, 4, 7, 8 ), Keilberth (6, 9), Kubelik (3, 4), Leitner (6, 9), and Suitner (4, 5). Other conductors who also recorded what are for me some of the best performances are: Haitink (1), Stein (2, 6) Giulini (2, 9), Szell (3, 8 ),  Klemperer (5, 9), Blomstedt (7), Bongartz (6), Mehta and Wand (9).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on June 17, 2007, 05:21:58 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 17, 2007, 05:16:39 AM
Bongartz (6)

I don't think I've even heard of this guy before. I'll look into Leitner and Suitner too :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 17, 2007, 07:30:06 AM
Yesterday's listening was devoted to the Toscanini 7th (NYPO, 1935). This is a newly found issue from the radio archives of the day. There's a spring shower in the background (shellac noise?), but once ears get adjusted, a surprising amount of detail comes through, esp. from the winds. It's amazing to hear the important clarinet interjections in the scherzo so clearly. In comparison, most modern recordings have them buried in a sea of string sound (worst offender being the soupy EMI Karajan).

This Toscanini version is quite a mystery. Some pages are missing (last seconds of I :o, a bit of the coda of II, and a section of IV). Not a lot is missing, maybe 2 minutes altogether. Overall this should be a 59-60 minutes interpretation. The phrasing is very natural, and there are some surprisingly affectionate broadenings in the Adagio. Overall these first two movements are unimpeachable. Toscanini's credentials as a musician can't be questioned and I was surprised to hear the effortless naturalness of the playing. The scherzo is too fast, though. The Finale is very well done, but the coda is quite fast, with the conductor clearly aiming for a bang finish. The disc ends with a timid spattering of applause. This may well have been the first time the New-york audience had ever heard a Bruckner work, or even the composer's name.

If the missing pages could be found and if some remastering wizard could clean up the sound this would definitely be on the 'must hear' list of any brucknerian. As it stands, this is for the Bruckner completist or Toscanini fan.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 17, 2007, 09:08:55 AM
Quote from: Raisa on June 17, 2007, 04:51:03 AM
I'm a huge fan of Bruckner! Who are your top five Bruckner conductors?

This is my top five:

1) Herbert von Karajan
2) Bruno Walter
3) Sergiu Celibidache
4) Günter Wand
5) Eugen Jochum

Cheers! 8)

The five six (math was my weakest subject  ;D ) who score the most bulls-eyes in my opinion are:

Celibidache - 3, 4, 6, 7, 8
Karajan - 4, 7 (both EMI, and yes, I love them despite the murky sound), 8
Barenboim/Berlin - 2, 5, 9
Furtwängler - 5, 8, 9
Giulini - 2, 8, 9
Chailly - 0, 1, 3, 7

Obviously what I look for in Bruckner is considerably different than Lilas.


Some other favorite recordings: Szell 3 and 8, Inbal 3 (original "Wagner" version), Haitink 3, Sawallisch 6, Klemperer 6, Dohnányi 5, Maazel 8, Boulez 8, Abendroth 9.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 17, 2007, 09:44:52 AM
Not that much different, really. A good 2/3 of those you list are among favourite versions. And maybe I should have added that Celibidache's 5 and 8 and Furtwängler 8 and 9 are right up there at the top, but they don't really compare with anyone else's. Hors concours, I should say.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 17, 2007, 10:34:16 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 17, 2007, 09:44:52 AM
Not that much different, really. A good 2/3 of those you list are among favourite versions. And maybe I should have added that Celibidache's 5 and 8 and Furtwängler 8 and 9 are right up there at the top, but they don't really compare with anyone else's. Hors concours, I should say.

You're right. In fact, the only conductor on your list that I've heard and haven't connected with is Böhm. For whatever reason, his Bruckner sounds cold and objective to me. But that's my problem--his Third and Fourth are acknowledged classics.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on June 17, 2007, 10:42:07 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 17, 2007, 07:30:06 AM
Yesterday's listening was devoted to the Toscanini 7th (NYPO, 1935). This is a newly found issue from the radio archives of the day.......

And how it came to the light of day you can read all about in this (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_thread/thread/d89f8b023738a1c5/f5899f769bb22284?q=toscanini+fake&lnk=ol&) classic whodunnit with elements of Hitchcockian suspense and neo-noirish denial......
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on June 17, 2007, 11:33:26 AM
No Schuricht?  :'(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on June 17, 2007, 11:35:37 AM
No Matacic?  :'( :'(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on June 17, 2007, 11:43:56 AM
Stop adding names I have to investigate :(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on June 17, 2007, 12:28:07 PM
Quote from: Drasko on June 17, 2007, 11:35:37 AM
No Matacic?  :'( :'(

Which Matacic recordings can be considered top-notch? I think about ordering his critically acclaimed 7th on Supraphon, but I see there also is an 8th and a 9th available.

Has anyone here heard Sawallisch Bruckner 5th on Orfeo? It's one of the reference recordings on www.classicstoday.com for this symphony.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Que on June 17, 2007, 12:31:32 PM
Another Matacic.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8788061.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on June 17, 2007, 01:03:48 PM
Quote from: rubio on June 17, 2007, 12:28:07 PM
Has anyone here heard Sawallisch Bruckner 5th on Orfeo? It's one of the reference recordings on www.classicstoday.com for this symphony.

Yes.  It's good.  So is his #1 (also on Orfeo.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Israfel the Black on June 17, 2007, 06:50:56 PM
Quote from: Lethe on June 16, 2007, 12:31:20 AM
I also hear some Schubert in his music is a primary influence, although I've never managed to pinpoint exactly which elements reflect this, more just a feel. Perhaps those effortlessly melodic scherzos are part of it.

I'm unconvinced there is any more Schubert influence in Bruckner than any other classical composer. Beethoven and Wagner are his biggest influences, however.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: uffeviking on June 17, 2007, 07:20:16 PM
Sergiu Celibidache will always be number one for me when it comes to Anton Bruckner, yet I try not to measure other conductor's performance against his, let them show me what they can do with Bruckner.

Nice surprise when I watched the DVD of Franz Welser-Möst conducting the famous No. 5 in a performance at the Stiftsbasilika St. Florian. - Is it a requirement for every conductor to swing his baton at this Benediktiner Monastery at least once in order to use the title 'Maestro'? Bernstein, von Karajan and now Franzi come to my mind immediately. -

Welser-Möst impressed me with his very sensitive touch, presenting the symphony with great respect and almost adoring emotion. I think someone here resented his slow tempi and I realised the reason for occasional hesitations. The acoustic in the basilika asks for great technical understanding of how to handle the echos, clearly heard on the DVD. I like Welser-Möst, he is good, and I certainly will watch it more than once.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on June 17, 2007, 07:39:30 PM
Quote from: rubio on June 17, 2007, 12:28:07 PM
Which Matacic recordings can be considered top-notch? I think about ordering his critically acclaimed 7th on Supraphon, but I see there also is an 8th and a 9th available.

Start just with 7th, Czech Philharmonic has very particular sound (brass especially) in Bruckner. It's better to see whether you like it or not on that one before eventually buying more.   
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: cx on June 17, 2007, 08:51:22 PM
Quote from: rubio on June 17, 2007, 12:28:07 PM
Which Matacic recordings can be considered top-notch?

One of my favorite 3's:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZP6FWA8VL._AA240_.jpg)

I actually haven't listened to it in some time -- about to change that.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 18, 2007, 04:28:28 AM
Quote from: Drasko on June 17, 2007, 10:42:07 AM
And how it came to the light of day you can read all about in this (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_thread/thread/d89f8b023738a1c5/f5899f769bb22284?q=toscanini+fake&lnk=ol&) classic whodunnit with elements of Hitchcockian suspense and neo-noirish denial......

Thanks: so Berky confirms, I trust he's done his homework. The orchestration changes Toscanini made seem to me limited to the timpani parts (Finale at two places - very effective!). Anyone spotted other changes?

There are just too many good  - even great - versions of Bruckner symphonies to list all the conductors involved. Schuricht yes, for the VPO 5, and Matacic's 9. But more importantly , I forgot to list my current top 9, Wand NDRSO in Hamburg. I edited my post.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on June 18, 2007, 05:01:00 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 18, 2007, 04:28:28 AM
Thanks: so Berky confirms, I trust he's done his homework. The orchestration changes Toscanini made seem to me limited to the timpani parts (Finale at two places - very effective!). Anyone spotted other changes?

2nd theme of the 4th movement is given to horn instead of strings. First appearance 1:04-1:21.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 18, 2007, 06:04:05 AM
Quote from: Choo Choo on June 17, 2007, 11:33:26 AM
No Schuricht?  :'(

Quote from: Drasko on June 17, 2007, 11:35:37 AM
No Matacic?  :'( :'(


No, I haven't heard these conductors in Bruckner yet. I'll rectify that.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 18, 2007, 06:05:26 AM
Quote from: rubio on June 17, 2007, 12:28:07 PM
Which Matacic recordings can be considered top-notch? I think about ordering his critically acclaimed 7th on Supraphon, but I see there also is an 8th and a 9th available.

Has anyone here heard Sawallisch Bruckner 5th on Orfeo? It's one of the reference recordings on www.classicstoday.com for this symphony.

I haven't heard his 5th but his 6th is superb.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 18, 2007, 07:14:06 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 18, 2007, 06:04:05 AM

No, I haven't heard these conductors in Bruckner yet. I'll rectify that.

Sarge

You MUST get Schuricht's VPO Bruckner 8th. It's unbelievable. Such energy, such inexorable forward motion.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Steve on June 18, 2007, 07:20:18 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 18, 2007, 07:14:06 AM
You MUST get Schuricht's VPO Bruckner 8th. It's unbelievable. Such energy, such inexorable forward motion.

I couldn't imagine being without his 6th. Just an incredible performance.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/512SM1G78GL._AA240_.jpg%5B/url%5D)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 18, 2007, 07:27:33 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 18, 2007, 07:14:06 AM
You MUST get Schuricht's VPO Bruckner 8th. It's unbelievable. Such energy, such inexorable forward motion.

Isn't that OOP?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on June 18, 2007, 07:38:27 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 18, 2007, 04:28:28 AM
Matacic's 9. But more importantly , I forgot to list my current top 9, Wand NDRSO in Hamburg. I edited my post.

Which Matacic 9 do you refer to (the NHK or the VPO)? Is it this Wand 9th you mention (from Musikhalle Hamburg)?

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HCZFHW9XL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: cx on June 18, 2007, 09:11:33 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 18, 2007, 06:05:26 AM
I haven't heard his 5th but his 6th is superb.

Sarge

I also enjoyed his 6th on Orfeo, but found his 9th on Orfeo, which he tries to do similarly (very blended, lush wall of sound), a bore.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 18, 2007, 09:42:11 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 18, 2007, 07:14:06 AM
You MUST get Schuricht's VPO Bruckner 8th. It's unbelievable. Such energy, such inexorable forward motion.

I found a used copy for €5.80 from a seller in Germany. Should have it within the week.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 18, 2007, 09:43:09 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 18, 2007, 07:27:33 AM
Isn't that OOP?

Seems to be.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 18, 2007, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: Steve on June 18, 2007, 07:20:18 AM
I couldn't imagine being without his 6th. Just an incredible performance.

I have his 4th (SWR), 5, 8 & 9 (VPO). With which orchestra did he record the 6th?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on June 18, 2007, 11:08:19 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 18, 2007, 10:00:47 AM
I have his 4th (SWR), 5, 8 & 9 (VPO). With which orchestra did he record the 6th?

None, as far as I know.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 18, 2007, 02:45:52 PM
There's no Schuricht 6. He's one of those old school conductors who couldn't be bothered with the 'smaller' symphonies ::).

Rubio, my informer  8) tells me this is another avatar of the Wand B9 I talked about. I think it also has his 5th, but I'm not sure which one exactly. I treasure his Hamburg late-seventies one. Go for that set !
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on June 18, 2007, 04:10:49 PM
Toshiba EMI will be reissuing the Schuricht/VPO Bruckner 8 & 9 in August (http://www.hmv.co.jp/search/index.asp?target=CLASSIC&genre=700&adv=1&keyword=schuricht+bruckner) according to HMV.

The Schuricht/VPO 3 is still available (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-3-Anton/dp/B000035QA1/ref=sr_1_4/002-2634653-4340048?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1182211797&sr=8-4).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 18, 2007, 04:59:14 PM

looks like Schuricht's B8 is also here:

http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VBA378MVL._AA240_.jpg

which is also oop in the US >:(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 18, 2007, 07:15:44 PM
Quote from: Heather Harrison on June 14, 2007, 05:18:58 PMAs with No. 7, both have massive nearly-half-hour slow movements which seemed to draw me into their sound world.  While the other movements may have more power and grandeur, it is these slow movements that I find especially appealing.

I can only guess that you would probably very much enjoy Giulini's 8th and 9th (and his 2nd as well) since you have expressed an enjoyment for the slow movements of these pieces. Giulini's expansive readings of these symphonies expose great detail in the slow movements. The Adagio to the 8th is particularly moving. His 2nd is available from Testament (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-2-Anton/dp/B00005K3PZ) and his 8th through Arkiv's OOP reprinting (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=56689). His 9th is available from DG (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphonie-No-9-Anton/dp/B000001GAM). Some have stated a preference for his Chicago 9th over the Vienna DG release... the former is still available on a budget box from EMI (http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Recordings-Ludwig-van-Beethoven/dp/B0001ZMBV0) as well.

That is if you were looking to add more Bruckner to your library. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 20, 2007, 09:31:20 AM
Quote from: Choo Choo on June 12, 2007, 05:37:08 PMThe problem with these pirate transfers is that they take any old ratty set of 78s, and record them through any old equipment - often without bothering to apply the correct equalisation - or even play them at exactly the right speed - and then try to "process" them with crudely added reverb / bass lift / treble cut / whatever - and the result is, generally, unlistenable.

Fortunately that 1936 Böhm / Dresden #4 exists in a superb transfer on Dutton - who appear to have taken a virgin set of shellacs and read them with a laser rather than a pickup - and the result is remarkable for its age.

Thank you again for this information, Choo Choo. The Dutton transfer arrived in the mail yesterday and I have had the pleasure of listening through it several times now. It is certainly a far better performance than I gave it credit upon listening to the poorer, pirate transfer earlier. While I still enjoy the broader VPO recording from the early 70s, this one is a fine performance with great sound for its age. I am glad you followed up my post with your thoughtful response.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on June 20, 2007, 10:19:27 AM
And thank you for posting this update.  I'm glad you had a better experience with that transfer. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2007, 02:37:02 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 18, 2007, 07:14:06 AM
You MUST get Schuricht's VPO Bruckner 8th. It's unbelievable. Such energy, such inexorable forward motion.

The Amazon seller was fast! I got the Schuricht 8th today. I may have time to listen to it tomorrow.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 20, 2007, 02:38:51 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2007, 02:37:02 PM
The Amazon seller was fast! I got the Schuricht 8th today. I may have time to listen to it tomorrow.

Happy listening.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MISHUGINA on June 20, 2007, 07:02:52 PM
where can I still order the elusive last Bruckner 5 by Jochum/Concertgebouw on Tahra? How much is it?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on June 20, 2007, 09:13:34 PM
Quote from: MISHUGINA on June 20, 2007, 07:02:52 PM
where can I still order the elusive last Bruckner 5 by Jochum/Concertgebouw on Tahra? How much is it?

I think this is the only place it still exists. It includes my favourite Bruckner 5 (together with Furtwangler/BPO and Karajan/BPO). Act fast!

http://www.alapage.com/-/Fiche/MusiqueClassique/509136/symphonies-n-4-5-et-6-anto-bruckner-anton-bruckner-symphonie-de-l-epoque-romantique.htm?fulltext=bruckner%20jochum%20tahra&id=123491177193533&donnee_appel=ALAPAGE

(http://www.alapage.com/resize.php?ref=509136&type=2&w=250&h=250&r=0.4&s=0.6)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 21, 2007, 03:29:02 AM
I just bought the 1986 Tahra 5th, but it's a different release (only that symphony). I haven't listened to it yet. There's a fascinating comment by Jochum on his interpretation of that symphony. He explains how and why he reinforces the brass with 11 additional instruments (4-3-3-1) in the coda  of the last movement.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: cx on June 21, 2007, 03:22:58 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 21, 2007, 03:29:02 AM
I haven't listened to it yet. There's a fascinating comment by Jochum on his interpretation of that symphony.

On the audio recording?

-CS
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 21, 2007, 05:32:32 PM
No, it's in the booklet notes, in German, French and English. The symphony is spread over 2 discs, and this is easily Jochum's broadest interpretation of the score. I guess I'll give it a spin this weekend.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 21, 2007, 05:46:07 PM
You all have made me curious enough about this one, so I had to locate a copy... It seems I found the set Lilas bought with the 5th on two discs on eBay. Maybe I will get a chance to take it for a spin early next week if the seller ships in a timely manner...  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on June 22, 2007, 03:27:38 AM
Quote from: beclemund on June 18, 2007, 07:15:44 PM
Giulini's expansive readings of these symphonies expose great detail in the slow movements. The Adagio to the 8th is particularly moving. His 2nd is available from Testament (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-2-Anton/dp/B00005K3PZ) and his 8th through Arkiv's OOP reprinting (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=56689).

I wouldn't bother with a $30 CD-R from Archiv when you can still get pressed CDs from Japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/search/index.asp?target=CLASSIC&genre=700&adv=1&keyword=giulini+bruckner) for $25 including shipping.  Unfortunately, no English notes in the Japanese issue, either.  Also, they have the Chicago 9th as a separate issue.  I don't like the brass playing in that one; it seems too cutting for Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 22, 2007, 07:41:53 AM
Quote from: Daverz on June 22, 2007, 03:27:38 AMI wouldn't bother with a $30 CD-R from Archiv when you can still get pressed CDs from Japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/search/index.asp?target=CLASSIC&genre=700&adv=1&keyword=giulini+bruckner) for $25 including shipping.  Unfortunately, no English notes in the Japanese issue, either.  Also, they have the Chicago 9th as a separate issue.  I don't like the brass playing in that one; it seems too cutting for Bruckner.

Thank you for the link. HMV is another storefront I can add to my growing bookmark list when looking for CDs. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 22, 2007, 07:45:21 AM
Quote from: Daverz on June 22, 2007, 03:27:38 AM
I wouldn't bother with a $30 CD-R from Archiv when you can still get pressed CDs from Japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/search/index.asp?target=CLASSIC&genre=700&adv=1&keyword=giulini+bruckner) for $25 including shipping.  Unfortunately, no English notes in the Japanese issue, either.  Also, they have the Chicago 9th as a separate issue.  I don't like the brass playing in that one; it seems too cutting for Bruckner.

87 minutes for the Nowak Edition? He is getting close to Celibidache territory although I think Celi uses the Haas.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 22, 2007, 01:24:38 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 22, 2007, 07:45:21 AM
87 minutes for the Nowak Edition? He is getting close to Celibidache territory although I think Celi uses the Haas.

They both use Nowak... for a time, I thought it could not get any more broad than that Giulini. I have only just begun absorbing Celibidache's 8th this week. I cannot imagine ever returning to Jochum's 1964 Berlin 8th (also Nowak) as it just seems way too quick in contrast at around 74 minutes. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 22, 2007, 01:27:13 PM
If anybody happens to be in NYC there are a few copies of the Giulini B8 at Academy Records for $18.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 22, 2007, 02:33:34 PM
Quote from: beclemund on June 22, 2007, 01:24:38 PM
They both use Nowak... for a time, I thought it could not get any more broad than that Giulini. I have only just begun absorbing Celibidache's 8th this week. I cannot imagine ever returning to Jochum's 1964 Berlin 8th (also Nowak) as it just seems way too quick in contrast at around 74 minutes. :)

Neither can I, but not for the same reasons. My preferences for the 8th are broad enough to find plenty of satisfaction in interpretations that span a wide range of timings. It's not so much the tempi. By and large Van Beinum, Haitink Amsterdam (1969), Jochum Berlin, Mrawinsky, Carlos Païta and Barbirolli are in the same timing range ( 72-74 minutes) but taken together they cover a huge canvas of interpretive possibilities.

Few interpretations over 84 minutes satisfy me, but the Celibidache does, even though it's a good 12-15 minutes than the next slowest.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 23, 2007, 10:58:03 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 22, 2007, 02:33:34 PMNeither can I, but not for the same reasons. My preferences for the 8th are broad enough to find plenty of satisfaction in interpretations that span a wide range of timings. It's not so much the tempi. By and large Van Beinum, Haitink Amsterdam (1969), Jochum Berlin, Mrawinsky, Carlos Païta and Barbirolli are in the same timing range ( 72-74 minutes) but taken together they cover a huge canvas of interpretive possibilities.

Few interpretations over 84 minutes satisfy me, but the Celibidache does, even though it's a good 12-15 minutes than the next slowest.

Well, there is more about the Jochum that is less appealing to me than the other interpretations I own other than his timings. Though I have to admit, other than the Jochum BPO, every interpretation I own tops 82 minutes... Haitink's latest with the RCO, Karajan's '88, Wand's last Berlin, along with Celi, Giulini and Tintner all tipping the scales on the broader end of the spectrum. As I look at the handful of recording I own, I realize I lack any historical performances, so this might be a good place to consider adding Abendroth's 8th if I can find it.

Speaking of historical performances, I was delighted to see a poster on the listening thread with a favorable first impression of the Kabasta 7th. Prieser Records also has a Kabasta 4th in their catalog. I think I may add that pair to my library.

Does anyone have any other recomendations for historic Bruckner performances... particularly those with great transfers? I would like to add a Knappertsbusch 3rd (though '62 does not seem to qualify as historic--if so, then I am fast approaching relic status myself) as I understand it was his favorite symphony (mine as well). But I do not have any real idea where to go with the other symphonies other than Klemperer for the 6th (though which performance). I may have to investigate Testament's catalogue.

Where should I start with Horenstein (though he seems to fall largely in the last half of the last century)? What are your favorite Furtwängler performances? Klemperer? Beinum?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rw1883 on June 23, 2007, 04:42:57 PM
A good place to start with Horenstein is the live 5th from 1971 on BBC (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-5-Anton/dp/B00004SV5H/ref=sr_1_3/002-1287825-4426453?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1182643330&sr=1-3 (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-5-Anton/dp/B00004SV5H/ref=sr_1_3/002-1287825-4426453?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1182643330&sr=1-3))...it's been on different labels through the years.  Berkshire has the Music & Arts transfer (http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.com/cgi-bin/seek.pl?StartRow=1&Label=&QueryText=horenstein&RPP=10&AndOr=OR&Meth=Some&pprice=&genre= (http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.com/cgi-bin/seek.pl?StartRow=1&Label=&QueryText=horenstein&RPP=10&AndOr=OR&Meth=Some&pprice=&genre=)), but I haven't heard it.

For Furtwangler...they are all worth hearing many times.  The wartime recordings are all great, but the 1949 8th's are my favorites.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 23, 2007, 08:07:22 PM
The Tennstedt Boston 8 (1974) is historical in the best sense. Although there's hiss and the occasional bout of static interferences, this broadcast is in very good sound and captures an incandescent performance. I was surprised at the incredible commitment of the orchestra. I don't think they must have been familiar with this work, or with much Bruckner at all. They clearly trust their conductor and give their all. It's a strange Bruckner sound, almost a mix of Munch BSO with Mrawinsky LPO. Strings slash into their parts with wild abandon, and I've never heard such a brass section as this. Trumpets shear through the mighty climax of I, the wild scherzo sections and the martial portions of IV like they're going to war. The coda is wildly exultant and crushing. Throughout, Everett Firth presides over the timpani with ferocious energy.

Personally I found Tennstedt's and the orchestra's intensity almost offputting in the first two movements. It's as if they're intent at burning their collective ship early in the game. But the Adagio is very collected and intense, with a hushed and anguished coda. Surprisingly, this is the place where the Boston audience spontaneously showed its approval with applause and bravos. How often does that happen after a slow movement? Quite typical of a great night at the symphony, where risks are taken, spontaneous combustion occurs and occasionally thwarts the balance in unexpected ways. The qualities that emerge the most here are intensity and sheer gusto. This is as far removed as could be from the german model as exemplified by Kempe, Karajan, Jochum or Knappertsbusch. I can't say I like this particular orchestral sound in Bruckner, but there's no denying the interpretation is memorable.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 25, 2007, 06:26:27 PM
Another superb 8th, this time from an unlikely provenance. The Tokyo NHK Symphony under austro-croatian conductor Lovro von Matacic. The same comments I made about the Tennstedt 8 might apply here, with a few differences. First is the sound of the orchestra. Trumpets dominate and the whole brass section is very powerful, with clear, ringing tone. Strings lack weigth and warmth: you'd never mistake this band for a german orchestra. Powerful, crisp timpani. The player ends all the numerous fff rolls with a bang, a device that eventually becomes a bit complacent.

The Adagio is slower than Tennstedt's but not as intense. Indeed the coda is intense and collected but lacks a sense of grief, resignation, hope mingled with despair. These last minutes of III offer a kaleidoscope of emotions but one wouldn't guess it from that interpretation. The Finale is tumultuous and heroic, culminating in a magnificently volcanic account of the coda (the whole brass section cover themselves with glory here).

The Denon sound is crystal clear and very wide ranging. However, as in all the recordings I've heard from that source, there is no deep bass. The telluric, subterranean groans and growls that should be underpinning much of I and III are nowhere to be found. This is a refined, transparent, cool engineering job. A contemporaneous 7th recorded by Denon in Dresden shows what's missing here. Notwithstanding my caveat, this is a smashing good version that almost joins the elite of recorded 8ths.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 26, 2007, 06:40:20 PM
I will have to settle for Matacic's CPO 7th for now. I saw the 8th at HMV from an unfamiliar label, Altus. I am waiting for another order to arrive from HMV before I decide to use their service again tho'. Thank you for the recommendations, Lilas Pastia.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 26, 2007, 07:20:43 PM
Today's listening was devoted to the Tahra Jochum 5th, his very last concert with the Concertgebouw (December 1986). This is  5-7 minutes broader than the familiar BRSO and SD versions on DG and EMI. The extra time is spread over all four movements. The recording is very natural, with lots of detail and fine resonance. Note that Jochum's COA sounds different form Haitink's: more somber in colour, more 'spread' in phrasing.

In the program notes Jochum explains how and why he did retouchings in the score. For example, where strings and brass play ff, the brass have no problem being heard, but the strings tend to lose presence. Jochum asks the brass to play slightly softer so the important string lines are clearly heard. Also, in the coda of IV, where in a live performance the brass are at the limit of their forces and are asked to produce that roof-raising final climax, he adds 11 additional instruments. These either take over the regular payers' lines or double them altogether. Obviously these adjustments are unnecessary in a recording, where balances can be fine-tuned in different ways. Also, the finale can be played when the players are still fresh. The unusual prominence of the strings in that recording is indeed noticeable. I don't feel it's just that the recording is clear - there's more to it. Not that the brass are slighted, just that the strings have more presence than usual in the complex, loud passages. And the coda does blaze more and show an extra oomph without necessarily sounding louder. It sounds fuller. I 've never heard the famous 1964 Ottobeuren recording, but since it was a live occasion, I wonder if the same adjustments were made? I haven't seen any mention of those adjustments before, but in those program notes, Jochum clearly details them as his usual way of performing the symphony.

Tempi being all on the slow side, there's a certain stoic quality to I and II. The orchestra always seem to have lots of extra tone, lung or muscle power in reserve. They never force. The scherzo is also slower than usual, but very sharp and animated. The Finale is built slowly, as is clear right from the introduction, which is laid out spaciously but with very pointed details. Suffice to say that it's one of the most succesful I've heard. IMO Klemperer builds a hotter head of steam, but to other ears he sounds dyspeptic, so there you have it: slow tempi can either sound majestic, granitic, and inevitable or OTOH comatose, arthritic and dispirited.  To my ears this 5th has all of the former attributes, and none of the latter. Those seeking an antidote to a geriatric 5th can look for the Gielen on Accord, easily the best of the 70 minutes versions.

In short: this moves ahead of the other Jochums available, and near the top of the list. It's a very deep experience.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: sidoze on June 28, 2007, 10:54:31 AM
QuoteIn short: this moves ahead of the other Jochums available, and near the top of the list. It's a very deep experience.

Thanks, that sounds like a great performance. Some of your description reminds me of Jochum's B7 with the Concertgebouw in Japan (1986 too) which I liked a lot.

http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/747998

QuoteI saw the 8th at HMV from an unfamiliar label, Altus.

Excellent label -- the Jochum sym I mentioned above is on that label.

question: Solti's B7 with the VPO, is that available in the west? Anyone know when it was recorded?

http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2514397
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on June 28, 2007, 11:02:21 AM
Quote from: sidoze on June 28, 2007, 10:54:31 AM
question: Solti's B7 with the VPO, is that available in the west? Anyone know when it was recorded?

http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2514397
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 28, 2007, 11:12:08 AM
Quote from: sidoze on June 28, 2007, 10:54:31 AM
question: Solti's B7 with the VPO, is that available in the west? Anyone know when it was recorded?

http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2514397

I haven't heard the VPO B7, but I used to have his VPO B8 from around the same time and found it an intolerable hack-and-slash browbeating of the score. It doesn't make me the least bit curious about his VPO B7. The CSO B7 recorded some twenty years later, by contrast, is a very fine performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: sidoze on June 28, 2007, 11:35:54 AM
Thanks to both of you, I will not have to work for that particular CD right now :)

Searched through HMV Japan and discovered that there's a whole Asahina world which opens up if you search for the maestro in Japanese. Found this B9 he recorded near the end of his life (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail.asp?sku=488895). Checked the timings at the B discography, think I'll pass on it, not extreme enough compared to his 30+ minute outer movements with the CSO from '96 (plus that one was free = less work).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on June 28, 2007, 08:55:56 PM
Any other thoughts?

Yes, my thought is this is yet another totallly nonsensical thread. Bruckner's music is way too complex for any one interpreter to get it "right", let alone be the "best". We may all have personal preferences and "favorites" maybe for each of the symphonies, but even these are vague and rarely absolute, and even if we think so in individual cases, that doesn't make anyone "the best" interpreter of Bruckner's vast symphonic oeuvre.

In order to "decide" that, one would have to "completely understand" Bruckner's music. Which no one does.

The question in itself is ridiculous, and anyone who thinks he can answer that question automatically disqualifies himself and reveals himself as a total Bruckner ignorant.

And since this is the Beginner's Forum, let me say, asking question like this is the worst possible way to begin exploring Bruckner's music. Those who have done so for a long time and who have listened to more than just 5 complete cycles know it is a long and fascinating, quite possibly never ending journey. Which is exactly what makes it so fascinating. Not this "the best" kindergarten stuff.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PSmith08 on June 28, 2007, 09:35:37 PM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 28, 2007, 12:33:46 PM
After hearing no less than 5 different cycles of Bruckner's symphonies, i have conclude that it is Eugen Jochum, his live recording of the fifth (Ottobeuren 1964) has to be one of the finest out there.

any other thoughts?

I'll bite. Why, do you think, is Eugen Jochum the "best" interpreter of Bruckner? Is this a universal best, i.e., does Jochum do each of Bruckner's symphonies better than anyone else; or, is it based on the whole cycle(s)? Not to get picky, and not for M forever's reasons, but I'm not sure that adjectives like "best" can be applied in most cases, especially to interpretations. How do we define best? Most faithful to the score? (If so, which version(s)?) Most "Bruckner-ian" sound environment? Still, when we get into that, we'd have to agree about what that environment is and how you quantify it. Simply saying something is the "best," without definitions and evidence, seems a bit arbitrary and possibly beyond justification.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on June 28, 2007, 10:57:41 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 28, 2007, 09:35:37 PM
How do we define best? Most faithful to the score? (If so, which version(s)?) Most "Bruckner-ian" sound environment? Still, when we get into that, we'd have to agree about what that environment is and how you quantify it. Simply saying something is the "best," without definitions and evidence, seems a bit arbitrary and possibly beyond justification.

Or in other words:
Quote from: M forever on June 28, 2007, 08:55:56 PM
In order to "decide" that, one would have to "completely understand" Bruckner's music. Which no one does.

Quote from: PSmith08 on June 28, 2007, 09:35:37 PM
Why, do you think, is Eugen Jochum the "best" interpreter of Bruckner?

I think the queston almost answers itself. One has to have a very thorough misconception of the nature of this music and/or a nearly complete misunderstanding of its substance to even ask that question in the first place.
Or in other words, there is no answer to the question. Maybe there is one to the question why that question was asked in the first place, but that has noting at all to do with Bruckner.

I understand you are not repeating the first, but asking the second question.

I think Jochum itself would heartily agree. After all, he conducted the music different all the time, he reviewed his ideas and reapproached the music in new ways literally all his musical life, right up to his death. Not because he was still trying to find the "right" way. But because he had a very deep understanding of the music and knew that it is "inexhaustible". One could say that made him one of the really good, or, if you need that word, "one of the great" Bruckner conductors, but the elusive nature of the subject forbids such classifications as "the best". Especially across the board, like here.


For some reason, I thought we were in the Beginner's Forum. But obviously, we are not. No idea why I thought that. Probably because of the nature of the above posts.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: uffeviking on June 28, 2007, 11:27:08 PM
You are correct, M forever, you were in the beginners section, but I doubt any beginner to classical music would be familiar with five cycles of Bruckner's music, hence I moved it here where MahlerTitan's question and your reply could receive further deserving comments. 

uffeviking  $:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2007, 04:11:52 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on June 28, 2007, 11:27:08 PM
You are correct, M forever, you were in the beginners section, but I doubt any beginner to classical music would be familiar with five cycles of Bruckner's music, hence I moved it here where MahlerTitan's question and your reply could receive further deserving comments. 

Where is Mahler Titan's question? I saw M's reply but had no idea what he was replying to. When I first read it, I assumed he was condemning this thread (Bruckner's Abbey).

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PSmith08 on June 29, 2007, 07:41:31 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2007, 04:11:52 AM
Where is Mahler Titan's question? I saw M's reply but had no idea what he was replying to. When I first read it, I assumed he was condemning this thread (Bruckner's Abbey).

Sarge

Maybe it got left behind in the other thread?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2007, 08:05:47 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 29, 2007, 07:41:31 AM
Maybe it got left behind in the other thread?

I checked there but it was gone. And I see now that MT deleted the thread. That explains it.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2007, 08:14:27 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 29, 2007, 07:55:43 AM
i deleted, M forever thought i asked a stupid question, so there is no point for me to have this stupid thread here. the original posts simply says, "who do you think is the best interpretor of Bruckner"

Oh, that's an easy question to answer. Celibidache, of course. 8)  But only the most committed Brucknerites understand this. It separates the true disciples from the posers. It takes years of intense study and meditation in order to achieve this level of insight. You need at least thirty years experience, listening to all other conductors, subsisting on brown rice and Bohemian-style beer before the revelation, like a burning light, strikes and you just KNOW: Celi is the man.

Sarge 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 29, 2007, 08:21:43 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 29, 2007, 07:55:43 AM
i deleted, M forever thought i asked a stupid question, so there is no point for me to have this stupid thread here. the original posts simply says, "who do you think is the best interpretor of Bruckner", according to M forever, by saying that I am stupid, and belong to kindergarten.

Certainly not. Bruckner's music, perhaps more than that of many other composers, can sustain a very wide interpretive spectrum. If you like the music to begin with, you will find that there are many gratifying approaches to his work, many of which will make you want to revisit other interpretations as well. Interpretive styles can range from the urgent (Jochum), to the classically poised (van Beinum), to the mystic (Giulini), to the anguished (Furtwängler, at least in the 9th), to the majestic (Karajan), to the driven (Schuricht), to the suspended in time (late Celibidache), etc. And all of these are vast simplifications. There is little point in anointing someone as the "best" where the interpretive variety is so broad and diverse, yet among that variety there are so many equally convincing and gratifying approaches that to put one above the others would serve no purpose.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on June 29, 2007, 08:40:16 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 29, 2007, 08:21:43 AM
Certainly not. Bruckner's music, perhaps more than that of many other composers, can sustain a very wide interpretive spectrum. If you like the music to begin with, you will find that there are many gratifying approaches to his work, many of which will make you want to revisit other interpretations as well. Interpretive styles can range from the urgent (Jochum), to the classically poised (van Beinum), to the mystic (Giulini), to the anguished (Furtwängler, at least in the 9th), to the majestic (Karajan), to the driven (Schuricht), to the suspended in time (late Celibidache), etc. And all of these are vast simplifications. There is little point in anointing someone as the "best" where the interpretive variety is so broad and diverse, yet among that variety there are so many equally convincing and gratoying approaches that to put one above the others would serve no purpose.

i guess they really have a problem with the word "Best", and i admit that the word "best" is quite a problematic word, but i wasn't trying to make a serious statement or anything, and off M forever goes with all of his personal attacks, which i think was quite uncalled for.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 29, 2007, 09:07:21 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 29, 2007, 08:40:16 AM
i guess they really have a problem with the word "Best", and i admit that the word "best" is quite a problematic word, but i wasn't trying to make a serious statement or anything, and off M forever goes with all of his personal attacks, which i think was quite uncalled for.

MT, there are no stupid questions.  ;) You are looking for the highest quality, which is commendable. It's just very hard to find common parameters for measuring "best" in this case.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 29, 2007, 09:25:07 AM
In any case, amid the huffing and puffing were some very judicious comments. I agree that there can't be an answer to this question. Who would be Beethoven's best interpreter? or Mozart's?

The quest for excellence is always commendable and it should be the focus of discussion. I myself react rather negatively to the eternal "best Bruckner cycle" question. It never existed and never will. Period. Case closed 8). Unless one agrees that the total  (any cycle) is much less than the sum of its parts (pick any half dozen favourite recordings of the individual symphonies, preferably played by orchestras and conductors of different cultures and eras). And here I join Mforever's insightful comment on the inexhaustible depth and  richness of Bruckner's music. I think this is the main reason this particular thread has been going for over 3 years now - it started life in GMG's former incarnation.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on June 29, 2007, 09:38:59 AM
Echoing O Mensch and Lilas, I also think "the best Bruckner" cycle is elusive, given the huge number of interpreters and orchestras involved over decades of performance.  Just to take one symphony, the Eighth: I must have 10 or 12 recordings of the piece, and don't "not like" any of them.  Like most composers, Bruckner can withstand many approaches, so finding "the best" is a difficult mission.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 29, 2007, 10:06:19 AM
Even if you tried to construct a cycle of the "best" single performances, there would be trouble as there are many that stand out for each symphony in their own way. I have just begun to digest the symphonies and while I began with Jochum's DG set a few years ago and Tintner's Naxos set a few years after, it was only recently that I began to investigate the weight of Bruckner's symphonic output and the vast potential for real joy in exploring a wide variety of interpretations. I have as many interpretations of his 8th today as there are symphonies in his cycle, and I am far from content with my exploration even of that one symphony (and even farther from the others).

If you are looking for a starting point to capture the whole of Bruckner's symphonic output (or most of it anyhow), either of Jochum's sets can make for a good beginning, as can sets from Skrowaczewski, Barenboim, Wand, Karajan, Tintner, Celibidache or whichever conductor you prefer. And while each of those sets will feature some standout individual performances, the whole will probably leave you wanting more. Or you could approach the symphonies à la carte and take suggestions from others as to which individual performances are likely to resonate with you.

The one thing that all in the Bruckner appreciation society seem to have in common is that they seldom stop at one. You can have seventeen favorite 5ths (so long as Sinopoli's Dresden and Jochum's '86 Amsterdam are among them ;)) and still find something new in a previously unheard interpretation.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: cx on June 29, 2007, 10:26:47 AM
I have more Bruckner in my collection than any other composer (well over 100 cd's), and I never stop seeking more :)

One of the reasons Bruckner is so great is because there is no "greatest" boxset or recording; there are so many ways to play and interpret his music that comparison often becomes a useless tool, and one must simply judge the recording on its own merits.

--CS
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on June 29, 2007, 10:36:12 AM
So MT, is the Fifth your favorite?  If so, I highly recommend hearing the Sinopoli with Dresden.  There is a great deal of love for it among Sinopoli fans since it was his last recording, but even if it weren't, everything about it is quite marvelous.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on June 29, 2007, 10:53:23 AM
Quote from: bhodges on June 29, 2007, 10:36:12 AM
So MT, is the Fifth your favorite?  If so, I highly recommend hearing the Sinopoli with Dresden.  There is a great deal of love for it among Sinopoli fans since it was his last recording, but even if it weren't, everything about it is quite marvelous.

--Bruce

well, I guess. the fifth has always been a tough one for me to understand. I understood the 1st, 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th quite easily, but I didn't really start to like the fifth after the Jochum's recording. I think my favorite is either the 7th or the 9th.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41507ZFR7QL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on June 29, 2007, 11:04:57 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 29, 2007, 10:53:23 AM
well, I guess. the fifth has always been a tough one for me to understand. I understood the 1st, 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th quite easily, but I didn't really start to like the fifth after the Jochum's recording.


If you use the popular "Bruckner symphonies are like cathedrals" analogy, somewhere I read a description of the Fifth as having "more empty space" than some of the others.  (I'm not necessarily agreeing, just reporting.)  I used to think that might be true until hearing the Sinopoli recording, followed by two excellent live performances: one by Sawallisch and Philadelphia, and another with Welser-Möst and Cleveland.  All of those seemed to minimize the "wandering around" feeling that can characterize the middle portions of the piece.  (Certainly by the end, with the brass section at full blast, I doubt anyone feels there is any "wandering around" going on... ;D)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: George on June 29, 2007, 11:21:41 AM
Quote from: bhodges on June 29, 2007, 09:38:59 AM
so finding "the best" is a difficult mission.



I guess as long as he's looking for HIS best, I think it's very possible, no?  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on June 29, 2007, 11:22:06 AM
Bruckner is BBC Radio3's "Composer Of The Week" next week (5x 1-hr programmes Mon-Fri at 12:00 repeated 20:45 BST.)  Unlikely to be many new insights for habitués of this thread, but the recordings chosen for illustration are uncontroversial and good (e.g. Wand/BPO in #5, Boulez/VPO in #8.)  Full schedule can be viewed here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/cotw/pip/ekn6q/) (menu at right gives playlist for all 5 days)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 29, 2007, 11:24:34 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 29, 2007, 10:53:23 AM
well, I guess. the fifth has always been a tough one for me to understand. I understood the 1st, 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th quite easily, but I didn't really start to like the fifth after the Jochum's recording. I think my favorite is either the 7th or the 9th.

The fifth took me a while as well. Then I heard Furtwängler and suddenly it clicked and everything made sense. It's now a favorite. If you haven't heard his recording, you should. I also second the recommendation for Sinopoli, but Furtwängler really achieves something special.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on June 29, 2007, 11:40:47 AM
Quote from: George on June 29, 2007, 11:21:41 AM
I guess as long as he's looking for HIS best, I think it's very possible, no?  :)

I suppose so, but for example (speaking solely for myself) if I were to try to pick a favorite single recording of each symphony, I don't think I could -- and that's not avoiding the question, just being honest!  For the Eighth, for example, I like Chailly for the sumptuousness of the playing and I like Furtwängler for what he seems to find that no one else does (although I wish his were in better sound).  Karajan's recordings (especially the last one) are extraordinary, but then I also like Welser-Möst with the Gustav Mahler Jugendorchester, admittedly perhaps because I find the idea of this young orchestra playing this magnificent piece very inspiring.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 29, 2007, 11:53:52 AM
For Furtwängler's 1942 5th, is there anyone who is familiar with both the Opus Kura transfer and the Music & Arts one? And if so, which has better sound? It seems that both of those are readily available, so I just have to figure out which to opt for.

*edit: it also looks like some Amazon resellers have the DG release available as well, so there's a third transfer to consider...

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/95/06/b268a2c008a0bdf7c596c010._AA240_.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Que on June 29, 2007, 12:31:17 PM
Quote from: beclemund on June 29, 2007, 11:53:52 AM
For Furtwängler's 1942 5th, is there anyone who is familiar with both the Opus Kura transfer and the Music & Arts one? And if so, which has better sound? It seems that both of those are readily available, so I just have to figure out which to opt for.

*edit: it also looks like some Amazon resellers have the DG release available as well, so there's a third transfer to consider...

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/95/06/b268a2c008a0bdf7c596c010._AA240_.L.jpg)

Of DG, M&A and Opus Kura (transfer of a Melodiya-LP), Opus Kura has beyond any doubt the very best sound.
The unknown (to me) factor in the equation is Melodiya's own recent reissue however. If it is as good as the other issue (Sibelius) I bought from their FW reissues, it could even be (a bit) better still. But the Opus Kura is very good - miles ahead in comparison to DG and M&A.

Q

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/44/685144.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/9581491.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on June 29, 2007, 12:41:56 PM
i also think Carl Schuricht's Bruckner fifth with SRSO deserves a mention.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/512SM1G78GL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 29, 2007, 12:43:00 PM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 29, 2007, 12:41:56 PM
i also think Carl Schuricht's Bruckner fifth with SRSO deserves a mention.

The one with the VPO rather.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on June 29, 2007, 01:39:22 PM
i was reading this article on Jstor, very informative.

Download the attachment!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on June 29, 2007, 02:16:49 PM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 29, 2007, 01:39:22 PM
i was reading this article on Jstor, very informative.

Download the attachment!

Interesting.  The article is from the ultra-conservative UK publication The Musical Times from 1955 - a time when Bruckner's music was unheard in British concert halls and barely available to any extent in recorded form (Derek Watson writes in his book that even in the 1970s he could find only 6 recordings of the 7th Symphony.)  So the article assumes a readership that is likely to be indifferent at best, dismissive and/or hostile at worst - and against that background, makes a pretty good case.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on June 29, 2007, 04:06:30 PM
Quote from: Que on June 29, 2007, 12:31:17 PMOf DG, M&A and Opus Kura (transfer of a Melodiya-LP), Opus Kura has beyond any doubt the very best sound.
The unknown (to me) factor in the equation is Melodiya's own recent reissue however. If it is as good as the other issue (Sibelius) I bought from their FW reissues, it could even be (a bit) better still. But the Opus Kura is very good - miles ahead in comparison to DG and M&A.

Thank you, Que. I have ordered the Opus Kura as it seem to offer the best price and shortest distance from me to order.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: George on June 29, 2007, 04:58:08 PM
Quote from: beclemund on June 29, 2007, 04:06:30 PM
Thank you, Que. I have ordered the Opus Kura as it seem to offer the best price and shortest distance from me to order.

They are a great label IMO.  :)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on June 29, 2007, 06:02:54 PM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 29, 2007, 10:30:43 AM
I completely agree.

And that is exactly what I said in the first place. Now we have one more page with all sorts of posts just repeating the same thing. Great discussion.

Quote from: bhodges on June 29, 2007, 10:36:12 AM
So MT, is the Fifth your favorite?  If so, I highly recommend hearing the Sinopoli with Dresden.  There is a great deal of love for it among Sinopoli fans since it was his last recording, but even if it weren't, everything about it is quite marvelous.

I don't tink it is. I think his last (commercial) recording was Dvořák's Stabat Mater. The last concert he did in Dresden was, I think, Verdi's Requiem, and there is a live recording of that.

But no matter if it was his last or not, that 5th is indeed spectacular in almost every respect, except I find the sound a little too dry, like on other live recordings made in the Semperoper. OTOH, some find that exactly fitting for this performance because it is so analytical and the dry, very immediate and clear sound supports that. Some of the recordings made in the Lukaskirche in Dresden are probably a little too reverberant and distant, OTOH, these do sound very nice and athmospheric, with lots of space around the sound, space for the orchestral sound to bloom, with some great sonic results especially in the 4th and 7th symphonies. I think DG found the ideal balance in the recordings of the 8th and Ein Heldenleben, for instance.

A very special 5th also comes from the Wiener Philharmoniker with Harnoncourt. Not surprisingly, NH brings his lifelong experience with "old" music to his reading of this, maybe Bruckner's most "baroque" symphony, and the way he outlines the counterpoint and shapes the long lines in a very idiomatic way is marvelous. The disc also contains rehearsal excerpts which are very interesting to listen to, the way he balances and clarifies the complex brass chorales, how completely thought through his concept is down to every detail and how it fits into the larger picture, and the way he talks to the orchestra ("I don't really know what Bruckner meant here, and you don't know that either") are highly interesting, and rather entertaining, too.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on June 30, 2007, 07:24:16 PM
Well, you did get some replies after all, including from me, and all these basically told you that there is no point in wondering who "the best Bruckner interpreter" is, that you should rather be open for all the different approaches a wide spectrum of wonderful Bruckner conductors offer.

Good night to you, too, and good luck.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 01, 2007, 04:59:17 AM
It's true that in the early stages of our musical experiences the impression a work makes on the average music lover (untrained as a musician) is very much dependent on the actual conditions of the musical discovery (performers, label, art cover even). "First love" effect, I guess.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on July 01, 2007, 05:03:08 AM
I think you are right. All the more reason to keep in mind there is no "the best" - it can easily lead to tunnel vision and deprive the listener of potentially great, challenging and enlightening listening experiences.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 01, 2007, 11:50:21 AM
Objectively speaking,  'the best' does not exist.  As a subjective experience it's always a shortcut to mean 'from those I know', or 'I like this one best'. But not many people use those qualifyers. Hyperbole is always catchier than a balanced statement.

'Experience' being an empirical accumulation of events, it's always possible that 'the best' has not happened yet, or will occur later on - maybe tomorrow, maybe in 25 years. What are we to make of today's 'the best' when we find something even better later on? ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on July 01, 2007, 04:46:08 PM
nice discourse on the definition of "Best" and all, but, since the title of this thread is clearly on Bruckner, is it possible that we get our focus back onto his music?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 01, 2007, 05:11:31 PM
It's actually the basis of this thread...  ::)

This whole discourse on the merits on various interpretations, styles of orchestral playing or conducting in Bruckner is what the Bruckner Abbey is all about.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on July 01, 2007, 05:19:54 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 01, 2007, 05:11:31 PM
This whole discourse on the merits on various interpretations, styles of orchestral playing or conducting in Bruckner is what the Bruckner Abbey is all about.

yes, yes, please, do discuss these things.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2007, 07:57:16 AM
I've read that Matacic actually uses the Schalk edition for the Fifth. Is that true? Does anyone have a preference for either of the two Matacic recordings I've found: one on Naive with the Orchestre National de France (1979), the other on Supraphon with the Czech Phil (1970)?

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on July 02, 2007, 08:30:52 AM
Dunno. I have heard that, too, but Berky lists his two recordings under Nowak.

I once looked at the score of the Schalk edition, there was some pretty weird stuff going on in there. For instance, Schalk made the rising fanfares of the first tutt entry all legato, slurred upwards, kind of of Heldenleben-like. And plenty more of that strangeness. But he only meant well!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2007, 12:38:27 PM
Quote from: M forever on July 02, 2007, 08:30:52 AM
Dunno. I have heard that, too, but Berky lists his two recordings under Nowak.

I once looked at the score of the Schalk edition, there was some pretty weird stuff going on in there. For instance, Schalk made the rising fanfares of the first tutt entry all legato, slurred upwards, kind of of Heldenleben-like. And plenty more of that strangeness. But he only meant well!

I have the Knappertsbusch recording. Really wild. Additional brass and percussion, the score severely cut, are the most obvious changes. It's a fun listen and gives you a good idea of what Bruckner's misguided disciples thought would make his music more popular.

I was surprised to read Matacic still used the Schalk edition this late in the game. I just can't remember now where I read that. I'll do some research.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 02, 2007, 12:56:05 PM
Matacic uses the standard edition, not the Schalk arrangement (cut by some 15 minutes and reorchestrated). The only extant recordings of the latter are the Knappertsbusch and Botstein. In addition to these two, there seems to be a recording from Japan, where Bruckner gives Buddah a run for his money in terms of popularity.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2007, 01:09:55 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 02, 2007, 12:56:05 PM
Matacic uses the standard edition, not the Schalk arrangement (cut by some 15 minutes and reorchestrated). The only extant recordings of the latter are the Knappertsbusch and Botstein. In addition to these two, there seems to be a recording from Japan, where Bruckner gives Buddah a run for his money in terms of popularity.

I've gone completely senile then.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2007, 01:13:02 PM
Found it. A review in ClassicsToday, beginning, "It's a curious thing that as late as 1973 Lovro von Matacic would choose to record the Schalk edition of Bruckner's Symphony No. 5..."

Full review here:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11058

Seems not to be the full Schalk edition but a Matacic hybrid.


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: cx on July 02, 2007, 02:01:05 PM
Has anyone heard Goodall in Bruckner? I have only looked at Hurwitz's reviews, and they are all extremely negative. I'd like to hear another opinion!

Any thoughts on Horenstein would be appreciated as well. This is a name that I hear often, but have never explored his Bruckner.

Thanks
--CS
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on July 02, 2007, 02:14:13 PM
Quote from: CS on July 02, 2007, 02:01:05 PM
Any thoughts on Horenstein would be appreciated as well. This is a name that I hear often, but have never explored his Bruckner.

The only Horenstein I heard was his Bruckner 7th with the BPO from the 20s which was supposedly the BPO's first electric recording. Sound aside, that is a very nicely paced and well structured performance. I find the recording more interesting for the playing style of a bygone era than for the interpretation. I haven't heard any of his postwar recordings but am curious as well if there are any top recommendations one should hear.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 02, 2007, 03:08:44 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2007, 01:13:02 PM
Found it. A review in ClassicsToday, beginning, "It's a curious thing that as late as 1973 Lovro von Matacic would choose to record the Schalk edition of Bruckner's Symphony No. 5..."

Full review here:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11058

Seems not to be the full Schalk edition but a Matacic hybrid.


Sarge

Thanks for the correction. I had checked Berky's usually foolproof discography, which lists it as pure Nowak. It seems that practically all the cuts have been ignored, but most elements (not all) of Schalk's orchestration have been used. Including cymbals and piccolo  ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on July 06, 2007, 10:19:26 AM
Advance notice that next Thursday morning at 01:00 BBC Radio3 will be broadcasting this:

1.00am
A concert recorded in Istria, Croatia in 1973.
Bruckner, Anton (1824-1896): Symphony No 7 in E
Zagreb Philharmonic Orchestra
Lovro von Matacic (conductor)

Some time ago they broadcast a performance of #9 by the same forces, recorded at around the same time, which was worth a listen.  I'll be recording this (if I remember.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: sidoze on July 06, 2007, 10:31:24 AM
Quote from: Choo Choo on July 06, 2007, 10:19:26 AM
Advance notice that next Thursday morning at 01:00 BBC Radio3 will be broadcasting this:

1.00am
A concert recorded in Istria, Croatia in 1973.
Bruckner, Anton (1824-1896): Symphony No 7 in E
Zagreb Philharmonic Orchestra
Lovro von Matacic (conductor)

Some time ago they broadcast a performance of #9 by the same forces, recorded at around the same time, which was worth a listen.  I'll be recording this (if I remember.)


Do you know Matacic's 8th with the NHK on Denon? I read a few claiming that it has some of the best sound they've heard on any modern recording. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be available now.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on July 06, 2007, 11:14:02 AM
Not so advanced notice - Psalm 150 and Te Deum here in about 10 minutes

http://www.rts.co.yu/radiobgd2.ram (http://www.rts.co.yu/radiobgd2.ram)

Serbian Radio and TV Chorus and Orch. / Mladen Jagust
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Greta on July 06, 2007, 05:00:26 PM
Okay, I'm beginning the Bruckner journey, and can finally post here. ;)

I have the Karajan/Berlin set to listen to. Is he a good introductory set?

So far I have heard his "Study" symphony on the radio and really liked it, #00? Or #0? Don't remember the performers. The numbers and version of Bruckner's symphonies can get quite confusing!

And what I've heard of the 9th floored me, the 1st mvmt so far (the impetus being M's MO game).

I just finished the 1st and it is mightily impressive. :) I have concluded I just cannot listen to Bruckner on headphones because he so often has the orchestra blasting away at full tilt for long periods and it is just too much. Bruckner must be a total trip live.

I don't know what comments to make about the 1st yet, except the triumphant finale is amazing, and I loved the Scherzo. Love. Is it wrong to say its Beethoven-ish? It's incredible. Last part of the 1st movement is really exciting. The Adagio will take more listening but the slow build to the rapturous peak near the end is beautiful.

Are there any particular symphonies that are good choices to go to next?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on July 06, 2007, 08:08:19 PM
Quote from: Greta on July 06, 2007, 05:00:26 PM
Okay, I'm beginning the Bruckner journey, and can finally post here. ;)

I have the Karajan/Berlin set to listen to. Is he a good introductory set?

So far I have heard his "Study" symphony on the radio and really liked it, #00? Or #0? Don't remember the performers. The numbers and version of Bruckner's symphonies can get quite confusing!

And what I've heard of the 9th floored me, the 1st mvmt so far (the impetus being M's MO game).

I just finished the 1st and it is mightily impressive. :) I have concluded I just cannot listen to Bruckner on headphones because he so often has the orchestra blasting away at full tilt for long periods and it is just too much. Bruckner must be a total trip live.

I don't know what comments to make about the 1st yet, except the triumphant finale is amazing, and I loved the Scherzo. Love. Is it wrong to say its Beethoven-ish? It's incredible. Last part of the 1st movement is really exciting. The Adagio will take more listening but the slow build to the rapturous peak near the end is beautiful.

Are there any particular symphonies that are good choices to go to next?

The 4th and 7th symphonies of Bruckner is more accessible for Bruckner newcomers. I started with 4th, with the Munich philharmonic conducted by Gunter Wand (Haas edition). The 4th's 1st movement is probably the most melodic, easy to follow yet BEAUTIFUL, GORGEOUS music he ever wrote in a symphony. Go try it, you'll love it im sure :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on July 07, 2007, 03:05:09 AM
Quote from: Greta on July 06, 2007, 05:00:26 PM
I have the Karajan/Berlin set to listen to. Is he a good introductory set?

Yep :)

Quote from: Greta on July 06, 2007, 05:00:26 PM
Are there any particular symphonies that are good choices to go to next?

The first two numbered ones are generally considered a step down from the 3rd, but are very decent (much like Beethoven's first two). From the 3rd onwards they are all mature, and especially by the 4th. The 4th and 7th are generally considered the most popular, but many consider the 8th his greatest - I certainly do. Among the mature ones, the 5th is introspective and a lot of people have problems getting into it, and the 6th is an underdog which seems a bit less popular than all the others around it (this is certainly backed up with number of recordings/performances).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: sidoze on July 07, 2007, 03:09:18 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on July 06, 2007, 08:08:19 PM
The 4th...is more accessible for Bruckner newcomers.

The 4th was probably the first I heard, and several years later, I still don't understand why it's so popular. I'd suggest the 9th as an intro, for what that's worth  ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on July 07, 2007, 06:07:57 AM
Quote from: sidoze on July 07, 2007, 03:09:18 AM
The 4th was probably the first I heard, and several years later, I still don't understand why it's so popular.

Given your taste nowadays for the slower interpretations, perhaps you should try the Tennstedt / BPO recording recently issued (along with a breakneck #8) on EMI Gemini.  One of the best examples of its kind.

Meanwhile, at the other end of the spectrum, I am re-acquainting myself with the live Kubelik / BRSO recording - a full 7 minutes faster than their studio offering, and 10 minutes faster than Tennstedt.  Zowie! ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on July 07, 2007, 08:13:13 AM
While we are still at the 4ths, is anyone familiar with this one, looks interesting (and sadly very much oop)

http://www.tahra.com/?ref=328&lang=en (http://www.tahra.com/?ref=328&lang=en)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 07, 2007, 08:35:30 AM
Never heard it, but I'd be cautious. Klemperer in those days was a very brusque conductor. Note that this clocks in at 55 minutes, which is way under par for this work. His Concertgebouw 6 is a very strange animal indeed.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on July 07, 2007, 08:44:18 AM
Yes, I've noticed the timing but I am rather fond of his also swift first Das Lied and somewhat later Köln Bruckner 8th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 07, 2007, 08:44:57 AM
Indeed, both are remarkable.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on July 07, 2007, 09:15:21 AM
Quote from: Greta on July 06, 2007, 05:00:26 PM
Okay, I'm beginning the Bruckner journey, and can finally post here. ;)

I have the Karajan/Berlin set to listen to. Is he a good introductory set?

So far I have heard his "Study" symphony on the radio and really liked it, #00? Or #0? Don't remember the performers. The numbers and version of Bruckner's symphonies can get quite confusing!

And what I've heard of the 9th floored me, the 1st mvmt so far (the impetus being M's MO game).

I just finished the 1st and it is mightily impressive. :) I have concluded I just cannot listen to Bruckner on headphones because he so often has the orchestra blasting away at full tilt for long periods and it is just too much. Bruckner must be a total trip live.

I don't know what comments to make about the 1st yet, except the triumphant finale is amazing, and I loved the Scherzo. Love. Is it wrong to say its Beethoven-ish? It's incredible. Last part of the 1st movement is really exciting. The Adagio will take more listening but the slow build to the rapturous peak near the end is beautiful.

Are there any particular symphonies that are good choices to go to next?

the logical choice would be the 4th, maybe the 7th. Take your pick, i would hold 9th until a little later.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on July 07, 2007, 10:19:17 AM
Here is a great documentary about Eugen Jochum rehearsing Bruckner and Haydn in Amsterdam, Hamburg and Bamberg. He also talks about the music and a few musicians talk about working with him. Then there are some fairly long concert excerpts.

I originally thought this video documents a celebratory tour for his 85th birthday in 1987, but that can't really be since he passed away in March 1987, a few months before his 85th birthday. This must have been filmed in 1986 then when I saw him in Berlin with the Concertgebouworkest with the same Wagner and Bruckner program he rehearses in Amsterdam in this video.

Big download (600MB or so), not so great 80s TV video and sound quality. But still very worth watching. Sorry, only in German, no subtitles, but it's still very interesting to watch Jochum at work. And sooner or later, all of you who are really seriously interested in "classical music" have to learn German anyway.
Maybe in the meantime, Sarge will help you if you have questions about what Jochum is saying in the video.

Download the 7 parts and join them with HJSplit.

http://rapidshare.com/files/14193365/Jochum.wmv.001.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/14195227/Jochum.wmv.002.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/14197055/Jochum.wmv.003.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/14221671/Jochum.wmv.004.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/14198920/Jochum.wmv.005.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/14200500/Jochum.wmv.006.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/14191396/Jochum.wmv.007.html
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 08, 2007, 04:39:11 AM
This is rather special... :o A download offered by John Berky on his Bruckner site

QuoteA Bruckner Meltdown
Stanislaw Skrowaczewski and the Cleveland Orchestra.
August 6, 1976 at the Blossom Music Center.
This must have been a live broadcast...

Download: http://www.abruckner.com/Data/Downloads/abrucknermeltdown/Skrowaczewski_b3_flub.mp3
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on July 08, 2007, 07:31:47 AM
That is pretty funny. I laughed hard.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Que on July 08, 2007, 09:21:46 AM
Quote from: Drasko on July 07, 2007, 08:13:13 AM
While we are still at the 4ths, is anyone familiar with this one, looks interesting (and sadly very much oop)

http://www.tahra.com/?ref=328&lang=en (http://www.tahra.com/?ref=328&lang=en)

Drasko, I have it and can reassure you: you are not missing out on a major recording.
It's interesting and it is a 4th on high voltage, but it's also erratic, inconsistent and unstable. Plus the sound is bad: I guess this was recorded on acetate disc, as was custom in Amsterdam before, and shortly after the war (that's WWII - for the youngsters from the US here). It is not better than the studio recording on EMI (GROC), which I find disappointing too. I prefer the Kubelik/ BRSO in both instances.

(http://www.tahra.com/img/couv/328.jpg)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on July 08, 2007, 09:28:40 AM
Related to that, I wonder what this is like (another B4):

(http://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/08/987608.jpg)

Very in-print, dunno about the sound.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Que on July 08, 2007, 09:32:09 AM
Quote from: Lethe on July 08, 2007, 09:28:40 AM
Related to that, I wonder what this is like (another B4):

(http://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/08/987608.jpg)

Very in-print, dunno about the sound.

Just came across an on line REVIEW (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/June07/Bruckner4_Klemperer_MM0012.htm).

Q
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on July 08, 2007, 11:13:43 AM
It is some time since I last heard it, but I recall thinking that '66 BRSO recording to which the review also refers the best of the bunch - in fact, surprisingly so:  quite different from the (roughly contemporaneous) Philharmonia recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on July 08, 2007, 02:43:17 PM
Quote from: Greta on July 06, 2007, 05:00:26 PMI just finished the 1st and it is mightily impressive. :) I have concluded I just cannot listen to Bruckner on headphones because he so often has the orchestra blasting away at full tilt for long periods and it is just too much. Bruckner must be a total trip live.

Sorry for the late reply, Greta. I hope you enjoy your exploration of Bruckner. I have found it very difficult to get off the Bruckner bandwagon once climbing aboard.  ;)

As for the blasting orchestra, that may have more to do with the Karajan readings than Bruckner--granted, the sound does get quite big no matter who is interpreting it. I have only listened to a handful of Karajan recordings, but in all of them, there seems to be very little middle volume. It is booming loud or nearly muted lows and the transitions from one to the other are quite abrupt. It was especially true of a 3rd I heard not long ago which is one of the recordings I believe may be in your set. Though his '88 8th is one of my favorites.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Heather Harrison on July 08, 2007, 04:23:43 PM
I'm also a bit slow to reply, Greta.  I recently did an exploration of Bruckner; if you look back through the thread, you will find my posts on my first impression of each of the symphonies (except Nos. 0 and 00, which I still haven't heard).  I bought Jochum's 1960's-vintage cycle on DG.  I listened to them in numerical order, as I was curious to follow how Bruckner's style developed.  I found that to be a good way to approach his work.  (Incidentally, I also got Jochum's performances of the Masses at the same time.  They are well worth exploring.)  Some of the symphonies (i.e. Nos. 1 and 4) are big, powerful, fairly straightforward, and easy to appreciate, while others (i.e. Nos. 5 and 6) are more introspective and perhaps a bit more difficult to get to know.  While I like all of them, it is those in the latter category that intrigue me more and I will likely spend more time with.  Today, I found Harnoncourt's interpretation of Symphony No. 5 in a store, and since I want to compare a few performances of this symphony, I had to buy it.  After I listen to it, I'll post my impressions of it and see how it compares to Jochum's interpretation.

Heather
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on July 10, 2007, 04:22:46 PM
I thought I was done with Bruckner's 8th (in terms of acquiring new interpretations beyond my current dozen) until a package arrived today that I had very nearly forgotten about... Music & Arts transfers of Abendroth and Furtwängler 1949 performances. :)

So, does anyone have a decent quality cover scan of Furtwängler's 8th they can attach to a post here so I can include it on my ID3 tag? The image on Amazon (which I normally rely on for cover art) is pretty poor, and I have not been able to locate another.

And does anyone have both the M&A and Testament '49 performances (they seem to be from consecutive days in March) and have any information on what, if anything, I might be missing out on from the Testament release?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sean on July 11, 2007, 12:54:50 AM
(Moved from M's orchestras thread-)

By the way M, I've checked and the Accolade/ Galleria LPs of Karajan's Ninth I admired so much were the 1966 performance; I then bought the 1975 CD, which reveals little interpretive shift. Penguin hold that the earlier has 'natural gravity and profound contemplation in greater measure, with manners a degree more affectionate' with the later recording inevitably emphasizing strength, but they're both absolutely vintage Karajan, noble and direct, letting the music speak.

I admire all you Bruckner enthusiasts, especially as he is a somewhat acquired taste (the Bruckner abbey thread was extraordinary). Here's my modest exposure to the symphonies on disc-

00- Rozhdestvensky (& a radio recording before that)

0- Barenboim LP & Rozhdestvensky (Rozhdestvensky's 00 & 0 were in a double CD set and I strongly recommend the slightly lightweight Russian tinge he brings- the recording's also a landmark in realism)

1- Karajan (ruthless)

2- Haitink LP (Haas) & Karajan (Nowak) (Haitink very beautiful, this piece suiting his temperament well)

3- Haitink (1877) LP & Karajan (Nowak)

4- Karajan's EMI LP (both rustic charm and architecture)

5- Haitink LP & Karajan (Haitink's timid bevelling of edges annoys)

6- Baremboim LP & Karajan (Karajan doesn't quite succeed in finding the same gravity, if indeed it's in the piece)

7- Boehm LP (lacks magic, becoming turgid) & Karajan (magnificent). Also heard Masur live with Leipzig orchestra in Birmingham ~1989- v. fine and committed, from memory and batonless)

8- Karajan EMI LPs (Haas) & CD (Nowak) & VPO CD (Haas) (EMI is very strong with perhaps the finest slow movement, with the extended Haas sections, ever recorded; the VPO is a curious late disc, tempos and phrasing judged to absolute perfection but with controversial overbearing control at the same time).

9- Karajan LP (1966) & CD (sheer seriousness and grip over the whole canvass hard to match). Also the Samale, Phillips and Mazzuca completion of the last movement- very interesting towards the end, building up to a height of angry passion heard nowhere else in Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 13, 2007, 06:11:55 PM
Lately I've  listened to a live performance of the 7th performed by the VPO under Boulez (from Vienna's Konzerthaus, 2005). Here are some impressions:

This is definitely one of the important recordings. It doesn't happen to have the qualities I'm looking for in that work, but there's no denying that it's extremely powerful and magnificently put together here. The orchestra's sound here is noticeably different from what I hear in other VPO versions of the work I own. Strings are rather leaner and more athletic, while still retaining a compact and very dense collective sound. Timpani are rather subservient and even diffident, a rather uncommon occurence. In other versions, even while not playing particularly loud they have better definition. That could be the hall (this orchestra is normally recorded in the Musikverein), the engineer's or the conductor's balances. The brass are their imposing, nay - jaw dropping- ususal self. Those trombones could stop an advancing army! Most different from what I usually hear is the wind sound. Here it's very much a dense, blended, collective sound, the harmonie as a conspectus instead of a series of individual sections with their own identity. That is most apparent in the first movement. Or maybe I just got used to it and stopped noticing anything unusual.

The interpretation is tight-coiled without being tense, determined but not hurried, powerful but never overbearing. The control over the mass of sound is amazing, and the very difficult rythmic frame is x-rayed with uncommon clarity. What it lacks is any indication that the conductor has found that deep layer of heart-on-sleeve emotion that lies at the core of the first two movements. It's not cold (this is the VPO after all), but it's never very warm. The coda of the Adagio is particularly disappointing in that respect. It never radiates as it does in many, many recordings.  Another disturbing element is the recording's total lack of soft dynamics. Forget about pp or ppp: a healthy p or mf is just about all we get. Is it the engineer's or the conductor's doing, I have no idea. At the other end of the spectrum, the sound is bright, glowing and very precise at all levels.  Altogether, this is extremely impressive and it certainly imposes itself as one of the incontournables among modern versions. It's just not what I like best. I got a similarly strong impression from their 8th, but this time I think Boulez' way was better suited to the work's grittiness and high drama.

Intrigued by the way Boulez had transformed the VPO sound for this reading, I played the first 2 minutes of the work from other versions to compare: 3 VPO (Böhm, Karajan, Giulini, all on DG), 3 Staatskapelle Dresden (Haitink, Blomstedt, Jochum), and 2 BPO (Jochum DG and Karajan EMI). Although the VPO is recognizably itself throughout, there are lighting subtleties that make for fascinatingly different hues (esp. from Karajan). With the SD, we get a different sound, and here the variations are more marked between recordings. This is a sleeker, silkier string sound, and the brass is slightly softer in sound, but sharper in profile. Jochum  clearly has the strongest personality here, and he brings out markedly darker colours from  the strings. In Berlin I couldn't detect any particular personality. In any case, the sound is so markedly different between the DG and EMI issues that engineering choices clearly take precedence. I believe these were recorded in the same venue (Jesus-Christus Kirche), but whereas the DG is clear and immediate, the EMI is hazy and has exaggerated front to back depth, making the wind choirs very recessed indeed. To make sure I played the scherzo, and the theme played by the solo trumpet seems to have been recorded a mile aways. Winds are almost like wallpaper. Slick, glitzy engineering. Nice in a way, but too cotton candy-like for Bruckner. The two Karajans are amazingly different from one another (I listened to them whole recently).  One feature I noticed is that Jochum, in both recordings - but esp so in Dresden - starts the work not with shimmering, hazy violin tremolos, but with sharply accented, electrically charged ones.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sean on July 13, 2007, 11:37:47 PM
Hi Lilas, great post and interesting to hear about the Boulez- I really don't like his conducting usually, or mostly anything about him, but would like to give this Seventh a go.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on July 14, 2007, 03:00:20 AM
I have that, too, and also the 9th live with Boulez and both the WP (it's not called "VPO", they don't speak English in Vienna, well, some do, but it's still called "Wiener Philharmoniker") and I find these all highly interesting. Good to have these recordings and a loud boo! for DG because they didn't record and release them which I think would have made sense because the 8th was a very successful recording which I hear also sold rathr well (for "classical" music standards).

I think the lack of timpani definition and the narrow dynamics are mostly caused by the recording which is a live radio recording. Not ideal, but still good enough, and it's good to have this highly interesting performance. The Konzerthaus actually has a somewhat harder, brighter, a little "glassier" overall sound than the Musikverein.

I haven't listened to either the EMI or the DG Karajan 7 in a long time, so my memory is not very fresh here, but when it comes to the 4th which was also recorded by both labels within only a few years around the same time, I vastly prefer the EMI recording. I think the DG 4 and 7 were actually both recorded in the JKK, not the Philharmonie, but I am not sure (and too lazy to get up and check!). Even though the sound is much more reverberant and in some respects less well defined, I find the timbres of the orchestra, the blend of the section, the overall "feel" of the sound and playing as captured by EMI much more representative of the way the BP actually sounded live under Karajan than the bright, glossy, sometimes a little screechy DG recordings. I would have to return to the recordings of the 7th to see if my impression there are similar, but right now, I am not so much in the mood to listen to this symphony.

You may find a somewhat similar approach to what you heard from Boulez in Dohnányi's Cleveland recording (Decca) which is also lean and mean and musically highly detailed and meticulously phrased. A very different approach, and one of my favorite recordings, is heard in Sinopoli's SD recording which is very lyrical and searching, but it also builds up to massive, explosive climaxes and it is one of the mostly sheerly beautiful sounding recordings, rich and colorful yet scintillating and with that typical Dresden string sheen and that flexible, vibrant quality which distinguishes this orchestra's playing.



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 14, 2007, 06:26:10 AM
Thanks, I'll certainly investigate the Sinopoli 7th ! I'm not very familiar with his Bruckner. I only had the 3rd, but although it was fine overall and impressive, I wasn't thrilled at the time (in those days my budget didn't allow for multiple purchases, so I traded a lot, and that was before I could burn a copy  :-\). I had issues with the edition (I hate the extra coda appended to the scherzo, it sticks out like a sore thumb), and at the time I favoured a much leaner approach, such as the Szell Cleveland (Sony). IIRC, the SD sound in that Sinopoli recording couldn't be more different than the Cleveland! That 'flexible, vibrant  quality' is something I have come to savour for its own sake. It certainly imparts a kind of organic pulse in the music that is independent of whom is conducting them. From my experience, only the greatest orchestras have that corporate personality that resists (or continues to shine through) any conductorial bias.

Back to the 7th, the 'lean and mean' approach works well in some cases, although I prefer a more expansive, affectionate way. Among the former, I love Gielen and  Schuricht in Den Hague (undernourished strings and coarse brass notwithstanding). For the latter, Blomstedt SD, Böhm and Giulini are transcendent. Karajan's VPO recording is unique and defies any description. I find Karajan's Bruckner extremely variable, but this is probably his finest, and one of the great Bruckner symphony recordings from any era.

Footnote on the comparisons I made yesterday. Even though his recording was made live in the cavernous Royal Albert Hall, the Haitink SD has a touch I didn't find so well done anywhere else: in the repeat of the theme, a horn chord underpins the strings (around 1:20 in). They come out clearly here even if marked pp (I suppose). That horn chord is usually buried (that's bad) or blended (that's better) in other versions. It brings a subtle shaft of light to that moment. Haitink may be a bit faceless as a conductor, but he's an extremely competent one. Going back to his recording to check that moment's timing  had me admiring the orchestra's strings again. Those magnificent cellos bring a tummy wobble. I checked the MPO under Thielemann immediately after that and the magic wasn't there.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on July 14, 2007, 06:39:11 AM
I'll also be trying to investigate Sinopoli's 7th (I only know his 5th, and think it superb).

I also have that Boulez aircheck and like it: the extra drive he puts into the last two movements help me to avoid the feeling I often get that they're a bit of a letdown after the superlative first two.

M forever: do you remember where you got the Boulez/WPO Bruckner 9? I'd like to hear that, but I can't see whether it's on OperaShare as the search feature there isn't working right now.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on July 14, 2007, 06:46:22 AM
I do remember that. I got it from my good friend Ramon, on CD-R.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on July 15, 2007, 11:15:09 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on May 05, 2007, 11:03:34 AM
This week's Bruckner fare consisted of :

- Symphony no 7, Orchestre métropolitain du Grand Montréal, Yannick Nézet-Séguin (2007).[/b]


The Nézet-Séguin 7th is a brand new issue, recorded live in the beautifully spacious and transparent acoustics of St-John the Baptist Church, Montreal. I was mightily surprised by this disc. It is so different from anything I've heard before as to be in a category of its own. The orchestra numbers about 75 players and as I've mentioned they play in a large venue, with a long sound decay (3-4 seconds). It has to be played at a substantially higher level than usual to achieve good sonic impact. Once the volume level has been adjusted, it sounds splendidly natural. What comes across is an extraordinarily luminous, reflective account. Beauty of phrasing seems to be the operative word form first note to last.

What struck me most was the total control exerted by the conductor over the rythms and dynamics. Tempi in the first 2 movements are spacious (22:00 and 25:40). Variations of pulsebetween sections are absolutely seamless. This induces a kind of trance-like, hypnotic feeling, although sometimes it makes one wish for some excitement. Forget about Jochum-like accelerandos as the climax of the Adagio is in sight: the same iron grip on the basic tempo makes that climax blossom instead of erupting with lightning and thunderbolts from the timpani. In a sense it's a bit disappointing, but what comes after is the most magical coda Ive heard on record. Similarly, the big orchestral crescendo-decrescendo that immediately precedes the coda of I is jaw-dropping in its collected intensity and beauty of execution. I mentioned the control over dynamics: this is an unusually undramatic account in terms of sound level: I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Bruckner's markings have been more closely followed here than in most other interpretations. A lot of the time the playing is between pp and mf. The few real climaxes are suitably brilliant and expansive.

The scherzo I found a bit tame, with an overly dreamy trio. The Finale is where Nézet-Séguin changes the perspective by adopting a swift basic tempo. The bold brass pronouncements are superb, and here the conductor's control achieves magic: the ensuing pauses' length exactly match the sound decay of the hall (an effect that was ruined in the Wand-Lübeck 9th, with musical phrases overlapping on the decay of the preceding ones). Things noticeably liven up in the coda, where a rush of adrenalin brings the movement to a triumphant E major close.

This is a live recording, but there's not a peep to be heard from the audience (only the booklet pictures let us know that the church was packed). I found the low winds a bit reticent (scherzo esp.), but there's a wealth of string details that stand like in no other recording I know (esp. violas in I an II). So altogether it doesn't replace my favourites (Blomstedt Dreden, Schuricht The Hague), but it comes right after those. Not bad for a 31 year old conductor and a 3rd tier orchestra.

I completely agree, this recording just blew me away, i was so surprised by its high quality i still can't believe what i was hearing.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on July 15, 2007, 11:47:24 PM
has anyone listened to this one:
Giulini WPO (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-Philharmonic-Orchestra-Giulini/dp/B000IY05ZI/ref=sr_1_15/104-3587152-8390368?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1184571929&sr=8-15)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on July 16, 2007, 05:44:40 PM
I have it. Mediocre picture and sound quality, OK orchestra but obviously just thrown together for the "occasion". But it is highly interesting to watch Giulini conduct the piece, how he really leads the orchestra, breathes with them and prepares what comes next instead of posing along what's already happening, like so many lesser conductors, how he shaped the music in long paragraphs, and that alone is worth having it. For me, it also has a nostalgic aspect because it reminds me of when I saw him conduct the 8th live with the BP around the same time. That was a lifetime experience.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on July 19, 2007, 11:03:54 AM
A bit of advice...

I am looking to add a Klemperer 6th. Which of the following two do you prefer?

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/5188Y1ARWHL._AA240_.jpg)(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YK4WV560L._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 19, 2007, 02:28:05 PM
I've read great things about the BBC one.

Things to consider:

- both feature an english orchestra, so forget about idiomatic playing. In any case, I don't think Klemperer gave much thought to that particular concept.
- the Testament is a live recording, which in Klemperer's case often meant big tempo differences from contemporaneous studio efforts. OTOH these two issues seem to have relatively similar timings, so the live vs the studio may be somewhat faster, but not by much. and in the case of the slow movement, that faster tempo may be a mixed blessing.
- the coupling is much more interesting on Testament: if I'm not mistaken this is the only Klemperer Te Deum and from reviews I've read it's quite the ticket.

I know the EMI studio one well, and although I find it imposing, it's never really won me over. I have never heard the Testament, but OTOH I have a Concertgebouw version from the same year, and that is one of the weirdest Bruckner performances I've heard.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on July 19, 2007, 03:15:09 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 19, 2007, 02:28:05 PM
- the Testament is a live recording, which in Klemperer's case often meant big tempo differences from contemporaneous studio efforts. OTOH these two issues seem to have relatively similar timings, so the live vs the studio may be somewhat faster, but not by much. and in the case of the slow movement, that faster tempo may be a mixed blessing.

Judging by the timings on Berky's site, the BBC performance is quite a bit brisker, up to a minute and a half shorter for certain movements.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 19, 2007, 05:55:18 PM
The proof of the pudding and all that... ;) Personally I'd certainly splurge if I found it at the second hand shop, if only for that Te Deum!

Meanwhile, on the domestic front:

- The 3rd symphony, Oeser Edition (the one with the longer Finale): Kubelik and the Concertgebouw, 1954 live recording. This is for the enthusiast first, but musical rewards are great. Lots of saturation and distortion in the sound, no sense of the famed Concertgebouw ambience and depth of sound. But: a galvanized orchestra, under an inspired conductor. Timpani are a very dramatic presence, and strings lash out ferociously. I can't say I sense much nobility or sense of 'rustic chivalry' here, but there is drama aplenty. The rather brusque transitions highlight - rather than mask - this work's complicated and bizarre structural facelifts. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the young Bernard Haitink had been in attendance at that concert. He himself chose the then new Oeser edition for his first Bruckner 3 recording (1963), and there is a lot in that excellent version that recalls what is to be heard here. The trademark Kubelik fire and spontaneity are replaced by Haitink's typical attention to structural smoothness and euphonious orchestral textures. It makes for a rather more noble but still impulsive interpretation.

In a nutshell: the sound is quite terrible, but the interpretation is really unique, if not the last word in refinement.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on July 19, 2007, 07:39:08 PM
How does it compare to the studio Kulbelik 3rd with the BRSO on Sony? I mean interpretively, not sonically, obviously.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 20, 2007, 04:04:59 AM
There are 2 BRSO 3rds available with Kubelik : a 1970 live (En Larmes or Audite),  and the sometime available 1980 Sony studio. There's another one which I haven't heard from 1954. I own the first 2.

That 1954 Concertgebouw is more combustible than the others, and the orchestra is definitely weightier (particularly dramatic timpani). OTOH there's a lot to be said for the later Kubelik-BRSO trademark balance of fire and refinement. Note that there's no comparison sonically: both BRSO issues are immensely superior, and the studio one in particular is resplendent.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 20, 2007, 04:21:02 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on July 19, 2007, 07:39:08 PM
How does it compare to the studio Kulbelik 3rd with the BRSO on Sony? I mean interpretively, not sonically, obviously.

You like that recording? The SOBR Bruckner 3rd on SONY that is? It didn't bow me over as better than anything I have. But I have only listened to it once.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on July 20, 2007, 07:04:39 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 19, 2007, 02:28:05 PMI know the EMI studio one well, and although I find it imposing, it's never really won me over. I have never heard the Testament, but OTOH I have a Concertgebouw version from the same year, and that is one of the weirdest Bruckner performances I've heard.

Thank you for the information, Lilas. I opted for the safer option with the EMI which seems to have pretty consistent critical approval. A few reviews of the Testament release were lukewarm at best, but the Te Deum was praised, so I may add that disc to my collection at a later date.

And my curiosity got the better of me so I also ordered the Audite release of Kubelik's 3rd (along with his 9th on Orfeo D'or). So thank you all for bringing that one up. ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on July 20, 2007, 07:41:42 AM
I recently listened to this recording of Bruckner's 9th, and I have to say i am very impressed.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BGKTNBMRL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on July 20, 2007, 07:56:10 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on July 20, 2007, 07:41:42 AMI recently listened to this recording of Bruckner's 9th, and I have to say i am very impressed.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BGKTNBMRL._SS500_.jpg)

Yes, all of Wand's last Bruckner recordings with the BP are quite satisfying. Had he finished the entire cycle before his death, I am sure his would be the favorite cycle to recommend for many.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on July 20, 2007, 08:02:06 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 20, 2007, 04:21:02 AM
You like that recording? The SOBR Bruckner 3rd on SONY that is? It didn't bow me over as better than anything I have. But I have only listened to it once.

I do like it very much but precisely for the reason Lilas Pastia mentioned: balance of fire and refinement. I do find it a bit too broad though. My first choice for the 3rd remains Haitink/VPO and I also like Barenboim/BPO.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 20, 2007, 11:15:05 AM
Well, if you find the Sony a mite broad, the Haitink VPO is even broader, isnt' it?
Personally I love this Kubelik studio 3 (and the 4th as well) and consider both crème de la crème recordings. Note that the Audite 3 is a bit faster, and faster still is that Concertgebouw version - although it seems to have a finale that is a full 2 minutes longer - I didn't find it slow at all, quite the contrary in fact, so it could well be a printing mistake (I'll check that out).

For a combination of 1877 Oeser (without the silly Scherzo codetta), Concertgebouw orchestral splendour and natural, no-nonsense pacing, the 1963 Haitink is very satisfying.

This weekend I'm trying on a Leipzig Kegel version that has patiently waited for me for almost a year...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 20, 2007, 11:20:25 AM
I like the Chailly/RCO very much. I also like Sinopoli, a refreshing, detailed reading with immense power at times.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on July 20, 2007, 11:53:44 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 20, 2007, 11:15:05 AM
Well, if you find the Sony a mite broad, the Haitink VPO is even broader, isnt' it?
Personally I love this Kubelik studio 3 (and the 4th as well) and consider both crème de la crème recordings. Note that the Audite 3 is a bit faster, and faster still is that Concertgebouw version - although it seems to have a finale that is a full 2 minutes longer - I didn't find it slow at all, quite the contrary in fact, so it could well be a printing mistake (I'll check that out).

Well, I don't find that the Haitink.VPO 3rd feels as broad as the Kubelik/BRSO/Sony. Haitink is in rare form in that performance and it really catches fire in a way that the Kubelik doesn't. I totally agree on the Kubelik/BRSO/Sony 4th. I bought that upon recommendation from someone here on the old board and it quickly became my favorite 4th by far. The grandeur of the codas of the outer movements has to be heard to be believed.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 20, 2007, 05:28:03 PM
The Leipzig Gewandhaus Kegel recording: I listened to this twice today. It is one of the most idiomatic interpretations I've heard of the truncated 1889 version. The orchestra is really magnificent, with powerful, rich and sonorous horns (they're often swamped under the trumpets and massed strings), and dramatic, imposing timpani. Strings are not well caught in the recording (no stereo directionality to speak of), but they do make a deep wall of sound that is very satisfying in itself. Winds are excellent. The recording has a lot of front to back perspective, so the soundstage is deep and rich, if recesssed and lacking in detail.

Kegel presents all the movements in the most natural way, so while this clocks in at a rather 'normal' 56 minutes, the feeling is of a very relaxed pacing, where everything unfolds inevitably. The Adagio and Scherzo have ideal balance between tonal refinement and rythmic gruffness.

For a totally different, almost contradictory view, the Cleveland Szell will prove an invaluable complement. I wouldn't be without either. Going from memory, I think the SD Jochum might well present a nice synthesis of the two approaches. I still prefer the 1877 version, but there is a case for such a fine, hugely committed and totally idiomatic view of the shorter 1889 score.

Re: the Haitink Vienna recording (1877 version): I love and admire it esp for the magnificent orchestral playing and deep affection evidently emanating from the podium. But it is broader than the Kubelik, so any impression of the latter being less fiery has nothing to do with tempi or timings. Personally I find it goes the other way around, but these are just personal impressions. If you like Haitink's way with the 3rd, do try the Concertgebouw recording: it's swifter, the orchestra is blunter, and the spurious scherzo codetta is judiciously omitted (Bruckner crossed it on one of his scores with the mention 'not to be printed').
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on July 20, 2007, 06:05:05 PM
There is also a nice live recording of the first version of the 3rd with Blomstedt and the GOL.

Quote from: beclemund on July 20, 2007, 07:56:10 AM
Yes, all of Wand's last Bruckner recordings with the BP are quite satisfying. Had he finished the entire cycle before his death, I am sure his would be the favorite cycle to recommend for many.

That was never the plan. He didn't conduct the 1st and 2nd symphonies at all in his later years after the Cologne cycle, as he found the pieces to be problematic and "krank", especially the first symphony. While that word translates as "sick, disturbed", it doesn't really describe well in English what he meant. He meant that the music showed too much of that Bruckner was guided by the need to fulfill external expectations rather than following his own inner voice. So there would not have been new recordings of these pieces anyway. He did conduct and record the 3rd with the NDR, and the 6th was on the program and scheduled to be recorded in Berlin just 2-3 months before he died. So there would have been new recordings of 4-9 with the BP, but most likely no 3rd, and definitely no 1st and 2nd.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 20, 2007, 06:30:27 PM
The 'problematic' aspects of the early symphonies also prevented their being played in concert by Karajan, Jochum, Klemperer, Böhm or Celibidache. All were noted Bruckner conductors, and the first two did record them in the studio, but AFAIK, never played them in concert. The third was a sort of bridge between the early and 'mature' symphonies.

Leipzig seems to be a great place for playing Bruckner. One of my favourite 6th is from there (Bongartz), and the Abendroth 8th is a classic. BTW there seems to be a bunch of Leipzig Radio symphony Orchestra recordings from before 1950, but it doesn't seem to exist anymore - unless its new name was changed to Mitteldeutscher Rundfunk, currently Leipzig's  'other' orchestra ??
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on July 20, 2007, 07:23:30 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 20, 2007, 05:28:03 PM
Re: the Haitink Vienna recording (1877 version): I love and admire it esp for the magnificent orchestral playing and deep affection evidently emanating from the podium. But it is broader than the Kubelik, so any impression of the latter being less fiery has nothing to do with tempi or timings. Personally I find it goes the other way around, but these are just personal impressions. If you like Haitink's way with the 3rd, do try the Concertgebouw recording: it's swifter, the orchestra is blunter, and the spurious scherzo codetta is judiciously omitted (Bruckner crossed it on one of his scores with the mention 'not to be printed').

I have Haitink's whole Concertgebouw cycle. I still prefer the Vienna 3rd, coda and all. It glows in a way that neither his Concertgebouw recording nor the Kubelik do.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on July 20, 2007, 07:30:44 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 20, 2007, 06:30:27 PM
Leipzig seems to be a great place for playing Bruckner. One of my favourite 6th is from there (Bongartz), and the Abendroth 8th is a classic. BTW there seems to be a bunch of Leipzig Radio symphony Orchestra recordings from before 1950, but it doesn't seem to exist anymore - unless its new name was changed to Mitteldeutscher Rundfunk, currently Leipzig's  'other' orchestra ??

Yes, it's the same orchestra. It has more or less continually existed as radio orchestra since 1924, but the name changed a number of times. Now it is the MDR Sinfonieorchester.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: beclemund on July 21, 2007, 08:41:45 AM
Quote from: M forever on July 20, 2007, 06:05:05 PMThat was never the plan. He didn't conduct the 1st and 2nd symphonies at all in his later years after the Cologne cycle, as he found the pieces to be problematic and "krank", especially the first symphony. While that word translates as "sick, disturbed", it doesn't really describe well in English what he meant. He meant that the music showed too much of that Bruckner was guided by the need to fulfill external expectations rather than following his own inner voice. So there would not have been new recordings of these pieces anyway. He did conduct and record the 3rd with the NDR, and the 6th was on the program and scheduled to be recorded in Berlin just 2-3 months before he died. So there would have been new recordings of 4-9 with the BP, but most likely no 3rd, and definitely no 1st and 2nd.

Thank you for that clarification, M. I guess I am still surprised how different conductors react to a body of a composers work, but that probably says more about my naivety than anything. ;) Though it would seem that Bruckner was guided, on more than those two symphonies, by external pressure. The entire history of the multiple revisions of his symphonies is part of what keeps me so engaged by them.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on August 02, 2007, 12:36:44 AM
The very first performing version of Bruckner's 9th symphony is edited by Ferdinand Lowe, i was wondering if anyone has heard of this version. personally, after listening to Knappertsbusch's 1950 recording with BP, Ferdinand Lowe really should've been hanged; he completely changed the the 9th symphony, for the worse. For instance, in the second movement, the opening pizzicato is accompanied by woodwinds!!! did the man have no ears? Why did he do this? and How did the original version finally come to light?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: val on August 02, 2007, 01:12:37 AM
The original version was published by Alfred Orel in 1932, followed by Nowak. It was the conductor von Hausseger that played and recorded it for the first time in 1932. Then it was Furtwängler that imposed that original version.
I never heard Hausseger version, but the CD exists although I don't know on what label.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on August 02, 2007, 02:37:52 AM
Quote from: val on August 02, 2007, 01:12:37 AM
...the CD exists although I don't know on what label.

It's on Preiser and is well worth hearing.  If nothing else, it demonstrates that slower does not necessarily mean better.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marple on August 02, 2007, 05:43:47 AM
Last month his 9th was broadcasted on 3sat live from Cologne Cathedral. Did someone watch it? Sir Gilbert Levine conducted the WDR Symphony Orchestra, and it was a concert that I enjoyed very much! The next day I bought an old recording of it with the Columbia Orchestra and Bruno Walter, and though I also have one with Karajan and the Berliner, this one with old Bruno is very special. I love his lyrical interpretation. I'm a big fan of Walter! ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on August 02, 2007, 08:20:40 AM
Quote from: Marple on August 02, 2007, 05:43:47 AM
Last month his 9th was broadcasted on 3sat live from Cologne Cathedral. Did someone watch it? Sir Gilbert Levine conducted the WDR Symphony Orchestra, and it was a concert that I enjoyed very much! The next day I bought an old recording of it with the Columbia Orchestra and Bruno Walter, and though I also have one with Karajan and the Berliner, this one with old Bruno is very special. I love his lyrical interpretation. I'm a big fan of Walter! ;D

yes, Walter is a very good choice, i have his recordings of 4,7,9th symphonies by bruckner, unfortunately, that's all he ever recorded (and the 8th with PSNY which i don't have).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on August 02, 2007, 08:27:04 AM
Quote from: val on August 02, 2007, 01:12:37 AM
The original version was published by Alfred Orel in 1932, followed by Nowak. It was the conductor von Hausseger that played and recorded it for the first time in 1932.

Recording is from 1938, I wrote few not very significant lines about it on page 2 of this thread.

Quote from: Choo Choo on August 02, 2007, 02:37:52 AM
If nothing else, it demonstrates that slower does not necessarily mean better.

[insert nodding smiley}
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on August 02, 2007, 08:39:17 AM
to show you guys what i was talking about, this is an excerpt of Knappertsbusch's 1950 recording with BP.

http://www.mediafire.com/?8yvvzyvujj2

i hope you all can hear the difference between Orel.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on August 02, 2007, 08:53:46 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on August 02, 2007, 08:20:40 AM
and the 8th with PSNY

That's an excellent performance disfigured by atrocious sonics.  Apparently the story is that the recording was rescued from corroded metal master discs fished out of a dumpster - and it sounds like it.  One of those where you weep for what might have been. :'(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on August 04, 2007, 07:26:06 AM
Do any of you have the Chailly cycle, if so, how is it?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 05, 2007, 07:10:17 AM
The Rögner 4th was on the menu this week. It's with the Berlin Radio SO and was recorded (splendidly) in 1984. This is a fast and very direct interpretation. At 58 minutes it is one of the quickest around. Timings are approx 15-14-11-18. Right from the beginning of I this scores by having the tremolo strings register with real weight and presence, even though the playing is suitably pp, not any louder than normal. Very good orchestral work. They're a size under the VPO-BPO-SKD or a few other heavyweights, but this band deosn't put a foot wrong and the conductor paces and balances everything brilliantly. One will notice how much the winds have to do (esp. in the quieter portions of the score). I don't think I've heard such felicitous wind balances before. The finale really jolts by starting at a militantly expecting pace rather than the funeral march one often hears. This is adrenalin-pumping stuff.

Definitely not an everyday version, but a refreshing, sometimes startlingly different reading. Available for a song on Berlin Classics. Nowak version, no cymbal crash in IV.

BTW, I detect 2 instances of outright (unconscious?) borrowing from the Bruckner 4th by Mahler: the timpani rythm at the end of the Andante is reproduced in the slow movement of Mahler's own first symphony, whereas the low strings rythm at the beginning of IV is exactly the same as the start of Mahler's 6th. there's no doubt Mahler knew the work inside out: he even produced  his own (reorchestrated and truncated) version of it. It's been recorded by Rozhdestvensky.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on August 05, 2007, 07:19:36 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 05, 2007, 07:10:17 AM
The Rögner 4th was on the menu this week. It's with the Berlin Radio SO and was recorded (splendidly) in 1984. This is a fast and very direct interpretation. At 58 minutes it is one of the quickest around. Timings are approx 15-14-11-18. Right from the beginning of I this scores by having the tremolo strings register with real weight and presence, even though the playing is suitably pp, not any louder than normal. Very good orchestral work. They're a size under the VPO-BPO-SKD or a few other heavyweights, but this band deosn't put a foot wrong and the conductor paces and balances everything brilliantly. One will notice how much the winds have to do (esp. in the quieter portions of the score). I don't think I've heard such felicitous wind balances before. The finale really jolts by starting at a militantly expecting pace rather than the funeral march one often hears. This is adrenalin-pumping stuff.

Definitely not an everyday version, but a refreshing, sometimes startlingly different reading. Available for a song on Berlin Classics. Nowak version, no cymbal crash in IV.

I was also pleasantly surprised by Rogner's version, it's pretty good, but in comparison with Chailly's 4th with RCO, I'd rather prefer chailly RCO.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 05, 2007, 07:23:10 AM
That's not the point, really. There's no need to pit A vs B etc. This is an endless and mindless game. It's different and stands on its own merits.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on August 05, 2007, 07:37:45 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 05, 2007, 07:23:10 AM
That's not the point, really. There's no need to pit A vs B etc. This is an endless and mindless game. It's different and stands on its own merits.

i know, Rogner's good, but you might want to hear Chailly too.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on August 06, 2007, 11:55:49 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 05, 2007, 07:23:10 AM
That's not the point, really. There's no need to pit A vs B etc. This is an endless and mindless game. It's different and stands on its own merits.

Well said. I actually don't know any of Rögner's Bruckner recordings, but would like to check them out some time. The orchestras in East Germany had (and to a certain extent, still have) preserved a number of stylistic features of the "old" German orchestral school which, combined with an unfussy, good craftsman approach like I would expect from Rögner could produce an interesting result. They actually recorded all the symphonis 4-9 and some of the sacred choral works. My only reservation would be if Berlin Classics once again used the damn Sonic Solutions NoNoise signal processing on these recordings, as they did on many of their releases. They really shouldn't have, as these are fairly "modern" recordings from the early 80s. A lot of the recordings made by the engineers of the "People's Own" record label Eterna in East Germany actually sound really good. So there shouldn't be any need for "remastering" these anyway, much less for "NoNoise". But Berlin Classics have proudly messed up some really nice 60s and 70s recordings with that system (which may result in less noise, but creates very harsh highs and very audible artifacts), such as Suitner's Mahler 1, Sanderling's Borodin 2, or Garaguly's Sibelius 1.

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 05, 2007, 07:10:17 AM
BTW, I detect 2 instances of outright (unconscious?) borrowing from the Bruckner 4th by Mahler: the timpani rythm at the end of the Andante is reproduced in the slow movement of Mahler's own first symphony, whereas the low strings rythm at the beginning of IV is exactly the same as the start of Mahler's 6th. there's no doubt Mahler knew the work inside out: he even produced  his own (reorchestrated and truncated) version of it. It's been recorded by Rozhdestvensky.

There is no doubt Mahler knew Bruckner's music very well and was influenced by it, but in much deeper ways than just "borrowing" elements of the music. These two examples are very basic musical structures, just a 1-5-1-5 alteration and a pulsing fundamental note, Bruckner didn't really come up with that either. There may be some musical and athmospheric connection between the "nocturnal marches" in Brucner 4 and Mahler 1, but I don't think there is much of a connection between the finale of Bruckner 4 and the opening of Mahler 6.

Quote from: Marple on August 02, 2007, 05:43:47 AM
Last month his 9th was broadcasted on 3sat live from Cologne Cathedral. Did someone watch it? Sir Gilbert Levine conducted the WDR Symphony Orchestra, and it was a concert that I enjoyed very much!

I am happy for you, but I thought that was a horrible display. The orchestra played very well, but the conductor just put on a big slimy show. What a hollow poser, gesturing along dramaticaly with the orchestra, and what a clichéed and kitschy interpretation, with the cathedral setting to round that off. Bruckner in Disneyland. They could also have filmed that in Neuschwanstein. No wonder we haven't heard much of "Sir Gilbert Levine" yet, and I hope we won't anymore. If you "like to watch", check out the great videos of Bruckner 9 with Giulini and the SWR orchestra (which also includes some rehearsa footage) or Wand with the NDR. There is also a great live concert video with Karajan and the WP from the late 70s (which incidentally also closes with the Te Deum) which was available on DVD in Asia but is really hard to find now.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 06, 2007, 01:59:29 PM
I agree the connection between Bruckner 4:IV and Mahler 6:I is rather flimsy: it's the rythm only, and all on a single note at that. I never noticed it before listening to Rögner's 4th: he takes it at the exact same halting military clip we usually hear in the Mahler work. When taken at a broader tempo, the chords at the beginning of 4:IV are much less slashing than those of 6:I, even at Barbirolli's tempo, so it's not that obvious. It's only through that (chance?) combination of tempo and rythm that I established this possibly fortuitous link.

Be that as it may, it remains fascinating to hear musical cross-pollination between great composers.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on August 06, 2007, 02:34:51 PM
having heard both the music of Mahler and Bruckner, i must say that despite both masters shared a close personal relationship, there is little similarity in their music. If there is any (which i doubt) was definitely unconscious on Mahler's part. i remember that Bruno Walter gave an interview once, where he said that he has never heard a single note of Bruckner in Mahler, (excerpt in the 2nd, interestingly). To which I also agree, you can try to make things up and make fancy connections here and there, but the connections are nothing more than "notes" juggling.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 06, 2007, 02:52:06 PM
I see... ::)

No music or work of art exists in a vacuum. I don't think there's any problem in finding or acknowledging influences here and there (didn't Bruckner quote liberally from Wagner's works?).

But I guess if Walter's ghost has been summoned from Hades to help your argument, there's nothing else to add. Too bad, it could have been an interesting discussion.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on August 06, 2007, 03:10:55 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 06, 2007, 02:52:06 PM

But I guess if Walter's ghost has been summoned from Hades to help your argument, there's nothing else to add. Too bad, it could have been an interesting discussion.

gee, i didn't realize... sorry about that
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on August 06, 2007, 03:19:24 PM
All this music did indeed not come out of a vacuum, and none of these composers actually completely "made up" their music. They filtered and concentrated it from what was around them. So it is very hard to say which common elements were "quoted" from each other, or which were "in the air", or which were just part of basic musical vocabulary, unless it is a direct quote where the nature of the quote and the context make it obvious and a reference is intended. Just like authors quote from and elaborate on each others' ideas using all the same basic material of language. In your first example, Bruckner described the music as a nightly procession of knights or monks something like that (or maybe something completely different, I don't remember since it never interested me much what he said about that, it is obvious that he just made that up to satisfy the contemporaries' hunger for programme notes). In Mahler's 1st, we have a (nightly?) funeral procession, so there are definitely some athmospheric parallels. In how far Mahler thought of Bruckner 4 when he came up with that, we don't know. The parallel is just too thin to assume he must have. It is just a very basic piece of musical vocabulary. As far as the opening of the 4th movement and the beginning of Mahler's 6th are concerned, I personally would say they have next to nothing to do with each other. In both cases, it is just a repetition of notes as a framework on which the music is build. But the athmospheric situations appear to me to be almost exactly opposite. In Bruckner's 4th, the repeated note form a steady, underlying pulse to a highly charged, but steadily floating musical structure above which motivic elements float in and out of sight, and it is these elements which propel the music forward - the underlying rhythmic structure actually held everything together and back. In Mahler's 6th, it is the exact opposite. It is the driving force of the pulse which relentlessly drives the developent of the music forward.

There are certainly a lot of parallels between Bruckner and Mahler, but these are more athmospheric and general than concrete. There are also a lot of parallels between them in some elemens of their "tone", and not just in the obvious cases, e.g. the use of folkloristic elements. Bruckner's influence on Mahler can be very clearly felt in things such as the way both use these folkloristic elements and blow them up to demonic, cosmic proportions. Or the overlaying of very opposite musical structures such as folk music themes and religious chorales (e.g. in the finale of Bruckner 3).

It is pretty obvious that there is a lot of the musical tradition which preceded him, all of it, not just Bruckner, in Mahler's music, and this is a very interesting and complex subject. Constantin Floros' book "Mahler und die Symphonik des 19. Jahrhunderts in neuer Deutung" explores this subject in depth with many musical examples, highly recommended reading just like the two accompanying volumes "Die geistige Welt Gustav Mahlers in systematischer Darstellung" and "Die Symphonien".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Choo Choo on August 06, 2007, 04:10:55 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 06, 2007, 11:55:49 AM
My only reservation would be if Berlin Classics once again used the damn Sonic Solutions NoNoise signal processing on these recordings, as they did on many of their releases.

Alas they have done precisely that on their recent reissue of Rögner's recording of #9 - and it's like listening with both ears full of mud - which is a great shame because even so, you can tell that underneath all that mush and clatter there must have been a fine performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 06, 2007, 05:10:55 PM
Thanks, M forever, for this most interesting development of this idea :D. I feel it's just what my unerudite and untrained mind is picking up (but without the ability to understand and phrase it properly).  :P

Of course it's easy to play the tune detective and come up with the kind of examples I gave, but it's something different to explain the context in which such similarities are perceived. In this view, I won't call them 'borrowings' from Mahler, although the 1st symphony's slow movement seems more prone to that decription than the other example I gave. The utter disparity of mood and language between 4:IV and 6:I is something that makes this quasi-common starting point all the more startling.

Mahler himself was prone to self-quoting, so I don't think it's farfectched to detect influences in his music, esp. his earlier works (as is obviously the case with the Rott symphony - if that's not a blatant case of borrowing friom Mahler, I don't know what is).

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on August 06, 2007, 05:49:56 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 06, 2007, 05:10:55 PM
Mahler himself was prone to self-quoting, so I don't think it's farfectched to detect influences in his music, esp. his earlier works (as is obviously the case with the Rott symphony - if that's not a blatant case of borrowing friom Mahler, I don't know what is).


there is a big difference between "self-quoting" and "others-quoting"

see, although Hans Rott's scherzo "sounds like" Mahler, his development section of the Scherzo is highly unmahlerian. (and the excessive use of triangle too). To me, this might've been a huge coincidence, that Hans Rott's scherzo sounded so much like Mahler's 1st.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on August 06, 2007, 07:13:43 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 06, 2007, 05:10:55 PM
In this view, I won't call them 'borrowings' from Mahler, although the 1st symphony's slow movement seems more prone to that decription than the other example I gave. The utter disparity of mood and language between 4:IV and 6:I is something that makes this quasi-common starting point all the more startling.

Hmm...no, sorry, these two examples are simply too basic to assume more, really. The alternation 1-5-1-5, that's one of the most basic pieces of musical vocabulary, not an idea of Bruckner either, not really a musical idea in general, just a very basic building block, that's been used millions of times, and the same applies to the repeated single note in the other example.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on August 07, 2007, 06:07:16 AM
M, would you do the not-so-well-educated-in-music members like me a favor and sum up the similarities and differences of the two composers, Gustav and Anton? These are what I know now, please correct and add something if you will:


Mahler's music: Self-indulgent, emotional, direct, overwhelming, constantly-changing, complex, progressive, over the top.

Bruckner's music: Subtle, religious, spacious, broad, sacred, warm, lush, metallic (the German brass), impressionist, dissonant.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on August 07, 2007, 06:09:05 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on August 07, 2007, 06:07:16 AM
M, would you do the not-so-well-educated-in-music members like me a favor and sum up the similarities and differences of the two composers, Gustav and Anton? These are what I know now, please correct and add something if you will:


Mahler's music: Self-indulgent, emotional, direct, overwhelming, constantly-changing, complex, progressive, over the top.

Bruckner's music: Subtle, religious, spacious, broad, sacred, warm, lush, metallic (the German brass), impressionist, dissonant.


where did you hear those? (9th symphony aside of course)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on August 07, 2007, 06:53:49 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on August 07, 2007, 06:09:05 AM
where did you hear those? (9th symphony aside of course)

I read those from a review of a recording of that symphony.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on August 07, 2007, 07:01:52 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on August 07, 2007, 06:53:49 AM
I read those from a review of a recording of that symphony.

good, that's all i need to hear.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 07, 2007, 07:27:11 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on August 07, 2007, 06:07:16 AM
M, would you do the not-so-well-educated-in-music members like me a favor and sum up the similarities and differences of the two composers, Gustav and Anton? These are what I know now, please correct and add something if you will:


Mahler's music: Self-indulgent, emotional, direct, overwhelming, constantly-changing, complex, progressive, over the top.

Bruckner's music: Subtle, religious, spacious, broad, sacred, warm, lush, metallic (the German brass), impressionist, dissonant.


I have mentioned at various times a marvelous analysis by child prodigy/musicologist/composer Dika Newlin, which was published 60 years ago: Bruckner, Mahler, Schoenberg, which is still available. She shows the connections among all 3.

I will suggest that you read that and then rethink your opinion.

Interesting that you do not mention "religion" also in connection to Mahler.  Both he and Schoenberg were drunk with religion!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on August 07, 2007, 07:33:39 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 07, 2007, 07:27:11 AM
Interesting that you do not mention "religion" also in connection to Mahler. Both he and Schoenberg were drunk with religion!
AGREED!!! :D if there ever was a man so fascinated with religion, that man is Mahler. let me quote Bruno Walter again" the difference between Mahler and Bruckner is, Bruckner has found God, while Mahler was searching for God throughout his life..".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sean on August 09, 2007, 01:27:35 AM
M

This was linked on the Classical videos thread, Karajan with the Bruckner 9 scherzo- I remember you saying you hadn't heard him in it for a while: amazing power and excitement from absolute minimum of means; I don't really think this kind of musicianship is matched elsewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO6HltIxevU
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on August 09, 2007, 06:47:42 AM
Quote from: Sean on August 09, 2007, 01:27:35 AM
M

This was linked on the Classical videos thread, Karajan with the Bruckner 9 scherzo- I remember you saying you hadn't heard him in it for a while: amazing power and excitement from absolute minimum of means; I don't really think this kind of musicianship is matched elsewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO6HltIxevU

i have the bruckner 8th with Karajan conducting Wiener Philharmoniker too
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on August 10, 2007, 01:29:45 PM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on August 07, 2007, 07:33:39 AM
AGREED!!! :D if there ever was a man so fascinated with religion, that man is Mahler. let me quote Bruno Walter again" the difference between Mahler and Bruckner is, Bruckner has found God, while Mahler was searching for God throughout his life..".

You have to be careful with Walter and his quotes. He was obviously an important eyewitness, but he also had his own ideas and agendas and saw everything through the prism of his own somewhat convoluted world view. His writings are quite tedious to read and full of pseudo-philosophic musings, so you should take him always as just Walter, not a reliable and "objective" witness.

Quote from: Sean on August 09, 2007, 01:27:35 AM
M

This was linked on the Classical videos thread, Karajan with the Bruckner 9 scherzo- I remember you saying you hadn't heard him in it for a while: amazing power and excitement from absolute minimum of means; I don't really think this kind of musicianship is matched elsewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO6HltIxevU

It doesn't really matter what you think about musicianship, since you are not a musician yourself, Sean, just lean back and enjoy and don't try to figure out and judge these things. You can't.

But thanks for linking to the clip, that is from the TV recording (it actually has the logo of the 2nd public German TV channel in the corner) of a concert in 1985 that I went to myself. If the camera panned up a little higher, you could actually see me, I sat right above the bass section. That video is available in Japan and I already have it on my wish list. There is also a concert video of the 9th with the WP from the late 70s which I have. Then there is a live video of the 8th with the WP from a concert, again in the 70s in St.Florian. The well known video of the 8th with the WP in the Musikvereinssaal (which is the same performance as the late DG recording of the 8th), BTW, is not a live performance, it is studio, they just filmed it that way to make it look like a concert.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on August 10, 2007, 01:36:05 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 10, 2007, 01:29:45 PM
But thanks for linking to the clip, that is from the TV recording (it actually has the logo of the 2nd public German TV channel in the corner) of a concert in 1985 that I went to myself. If the camera panned up a little higher, you could actually see me, I sat right above the bass section. That video is available in Japan and I already have it on my wish list. There is also a concert video of the 9th with the WP from the late 70s which I have. Then there is a live video of the 8th with the WP from a concert, again in the 70s in St.Florian. The well known video of the 8th with the WP in the Musikvereinssaal (which is the same performance as the late DG recording of the 8th), BTW, is not a live performance, it is studio, they just filmed it that way to make it look like a concert.

i uploaded that too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh2L5V8eWwc
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on August 20, 2007, 10:29:18 PM
Quote from: Heather Harrison on July 08, 2007, 04:23:43 PM
Today, I found Harnoncourt's interpretation of Symphony No. 5 in a store, and since I want to compare a few performances of this symphony, I had to buy it.  After I listen to it, I'll post my impressions of it and see how it compares to Jochum's interpretation.

Heather

which one?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Que on August 25, 2007, 08:24:52 AM
I had two blank draws before on Klemperer/Bruckner 4. The GROC/EMI is calcified/"granite" and doesn't rock my boat at all. The '47 RCO (Tahra) has its good moments but is erratic and inconsistent. I'm hoping third time is lucky... :)
Anyone familiar with this recording?

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/08/987608.jpg)

Funkhaus, Saal 1, WDR Cologne, 5 April 1954

Q
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 28, 2007, 04:05:40 AM
No to the above question, but I have never heard a decent Klemperer performance of Bruckner.

I once sat through his arthritic 5th Symphony back in the 1960's and was positive the record speed had to be on 16 by mistake, instead of 33 1/3, but no.

In fact I cranked it up later to 78, and aside from raising the key, it was a great performance!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sean on August 28, 2007, 09:36:49 AM
M, I've only just seen your post, two weeks late. Well I guess I've listened and thought more about the big K than any other conductor, being especially won over by his Bruckner in my late teens, performances I still think are of absolutely transcendental character (don't ask me to explain, that's partly the point). He did have this very odd way though of his phrasing sometimes sounding both coercive and perfectly judged- the VPO Bruckner 8 and the live Mahler 9 being the best examples I know. The Bruckner 8 is obviously a very great performance with immense authority and a lifetime's thought in it but raises questions at the same time: does he imbue the orchestra from within with his perspective or is the approach to the players perhaps too imperious...

Did you meet Karajan?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on August 28, 2007, 09:39:11 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 28, 2007, 04:05:40 AM
In fact I cranked it up later to 78, and aside from raising the key, it was a great performance!

0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on August 28, 2007, 10:13:45 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 28, 2007, 04:05:40 AM
No to the above question, but I have never heard a decent Klemperer performance of Bruckner.

I once sat through his arthritic.......

Try to hear his earlier (pre 60s) recordings. His '57 Köln 8th is 12-13 minutes faster than 70s EMI one :o.
And I believe he shaves off some 5 minutes in this 4th linked by Que compared to EMI studio. And that '47 Concertgebouw is probably even faster (still interested, if anyone runs across a copy let me know).

Nothing arthritic about those....
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Keemun on September 02, 2007, 09:25:40 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 28, 2007, 04:05:40 AM
No to the above question, but I have never heard a decent Klemperer performance of Bruckner.

Have you heard Bruckner 6 performed by Klemperer and New Philharmonia Orchestra (1965)?  I think it's a great recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 06, 2007, 06:58:43 PM
Listened to this week: the First symphony, with the redoubtable Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchester under Vaclav Neumann. Although this is over 40 years old, it still holds up very well indeed as a sound experience.

Once more I realize how much the orchestra's personality is the defining factor in a Bruckner performance - probably more so than for any other major composer I know. The conductor worth his salt will bring out the players' commitment and direct the traffic, adding an ounce or two of personal inflections here and there. Not more, nor less. It doesn't mean the results would be similar from one good performance to another. Quite the contrary. Instead of having Maestro X layering his copyrighted Bruckner sauce in New-York, London and Berlin to no audible difference, I'd rather have it the other way around.

In this case, Neumann brings solid musicianship and strong leadership to an orchestra that knows its stuff inside out. My previous sole favourite used to be the very different Haiting COA version: tart trumpets, emerald green, bottled horns, perky winds, athletic and aristocratic strings, all enthusiastically responding to Haitink's no-nonsense, youthful exuberance. At 5 minutes more (11 percent slower), the Neumann-Leipzig is perforce weightier in sound, but no less trenchant or committed. This orchestra's forte is a string section of immense weight and personality. They carry the burden of the argument in terms of momentum and orchestral colour, with the big, boomy timpani and loud-mouthed brass section contributing their own imposing sonorities to the work.

Either way, Bruckner's first emerges as a work of tremendous vitality and almost demonic energy. Were it not for the fact that it's been composed before the so-called "nullte", I'd probably vote it as the most promising in a 'first symphony' contest.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 18, 2007, 06:38:41 PM
Listened to this week: the ninth under Pierre Boulez. Two versions, Chicago 1999 and Vienna 2001. There are of course similarities between the two interpretations, but the orchestral playing is vastly different, and so is the conductor's approach in these live performances.

Both are big, grim, unsmiling interpretations. There are some surprising rhetorical broadenings in Vienna. In Chicago one hears only the brass and timpani in the climaxes. Strings disappear totally. It's probably not how it came across in concert, but on disc it's quite obvious. Very refined and yet commanding and almost militarily disciplined. Timpani taps at the onset are clear yet ominous, very well judged.  This work has many such seemingly small details that imprint on the memory. Unfortunately the disc crackles badly in most of the loud spots. I'll refrain from passing a judgment.

The Vienna recording hails from the Schauspielhaus, Salzburg. It is clearer. Strings never disappear under the weigth of brass and timpani, indeed they are magnificent throughout, with that telltale sweet, almost saccharine tone.  But it's congested when Pierre and the boys whip it up - which happens a lot. I don't think I've ever heard as many decibels in this work as here. Except from the contemporaneous, disgusting Ozawa Vienna broadcast. With Boulez it works - most of the time. This is the kind of very loud, brutal, dense-coiled orchestral playing one expected from Karajan and the BPO in the late seventies. The coda of I is excellent, with a surprising slowdown and ritard on the last chord. The Scherzo is one mean brute here, it left me speechless. I'd think this particular movement is an unqualified success. The clarity and lucidity of the brass playing at this speed and dynamic level is just astounding. The adagio is not so successful. It's a bit aloof, and the coda is a full December moon harshly beaming on the landscape. No tenderness, no transfiguration, no ecstasy, no spirituality. Unfortunately the horns clam loudly on the ascent to the last chord - and yes, it's loud throughout and stops abruptly. In this particular context it doesn't go down well.

In any case, if that comes out on a commercial recording, I'll certainly buy it. That kind of unsentimental, tough, forbidding interpretation is not my cup of tea, but it's hugely impressive. I would say this is the polar opposite of the Walter concept.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2007, 12:03:21 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 06, 2007, 06:58:43 PM
Listened to this week: the First symphony, with the redoubtable Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchester under Vaclav Neumann. Although this is over 40 years old, it still holds up very well indeed as a sound experience.

I know this recording very well, Lilas Pastia, and it's my favourite First. The Finale under Neumann is electrifying.

Brucknerian greetings from Delft, the Netherlands!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on September 22, 2007, 08:25:07 AM
Uploaded an out of print Helgoland performance by Wyn Morris and the Symphonica of London from CD on request.

I strongly recommend that anybody on a connection better than 56k give this piece a try. It'll appeal to Wagner fans, it's a mature composition, and whether or not you consider the text silly (I don't have an English translation sadly, see the Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helgoland%20(Bruckner)) for the German text), it's a stirring and musically wonderful composition.

http://www.mediafire.com/?1szm3gt93xg
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on September 22, 2007, 08:32:16 AM
Quote from: Lethe on September 22, 2007, 08:25:07 AM
Uploaded an out of print Helgoland

Thanks :-*


Demanding sob that I am, can't help but asking, would you happen to have the accompaning Liebesmahl?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on September 22, 2007, 08:36:05 AM
Quote from: Drasko on September 22, 2007, 08:32:16 AM
Thanks :-*


Demanding sob that I am, can't help but asking, would you happen to have the accompaning Liebesmahl?

I almost considered beginning uploading that and saying it's on the way, but I thought "nobody can be as obsessively completist as me... I won't bother". :D

Uploading now - it'll take up to 40 mins. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on September 22, 2007, 08:39:51 AM
 :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 22, 2007, 08:43:45 AM
Thanks, Lethe, for Helgoland! I know this work exists, and that it's a late work, but this is the first time I'll be listening to it!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Keemun on September 22, 2007, 08:50:19 AM
Quote from: Lethe on September 22, 2007, 08:25:07 AM
Uploaded an out of print Helgoland performance by Wyn Morris and the Symphonica of London from CD on request.

Thanks, downloading now.   :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 22, 2007, 08:59:53 AM
Anybody who likes Brahm's overtures will know what to expect - and not to expect: mature, full-blown brucknerian language and rhetoric but in a 'lesser' form. It's one of those great "occasional" works that really deserves to be heard more often.

This particular performance defines the term 'granitic'. Suitable for a work that describes an impregnable rocky island in the North Sea. Yes, the place does exist!
(http://www.aerosoft2.de/downloads/helgoland/aero_helgo2_28.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on September 22, 2007, 09:05:32 AM
Excellent. This performance really does blow Barenboim away: it's amazing how much more gravitas the work has when played this much slower.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 22, 2007, 09:07:58 AM
Off to listen to it!

P.S.: Lethe, you wouldn't happen to have the original lp coupling, Wagner's Liebesmahl des Apostel ? ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on September 22, 2007, 09:20:30 AM
Quote from: Drasko on September 22, 2007, 08:32:16 AM
Demanding sob that I am, can't help but asking, would you happen to have the accompaning Liebesmahl?

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 22, 2007, 09:07:58 AM
P.S.: Lethe, you wouldn't happen to have the original lp coupling, Wagner's Liebesmahl des Apostel ? ;D

http://www.mediafire.com/?9umjye3in22
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 22, 2007, 10:13:16 AM
A dream come true!  :-*

Wagner's Liebesmahl is a weirdly constructed work. It's about 35 minutes long and for the first 25 minutes it's strictly a capella. Then the orchestra comes in, at the moment where the Holy Ghost descends on the apostles. From there on it's an exciting orchestral-choral pageant. Thrilling stuff.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: marvinbrown on September 22, 2007, 03:13:26 PM


  TODAY, SEPTEMBER 22, 2007 I discovered Bruckner for the first time in my life.  I listened to symphony no.0 (Skrowaczewski) and symphony no.00 (Tinter) today and just fell in love with Bruckner's music. Much like the music of Wagner  0:) (one of my all time favorite composers) Bruckner's first 2 symphonies had a profound emotional effect on me.   I had to find out more and just bought this set from amazon. For the first time in a very long time I am really excited!!!

  (http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/41C44QDJ6HL._SS500_.jpg)

  Just wanted to come on board this thread, I know I am late, but hope there is room for me, a Bruckner newbe, here.

  I will spend all of next week listening to Bruckner's symphonies. 
 
   marvin



 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 22, 2007, 03:18:06 PM
Welcome, Marvin! You're in for an epochal journey. :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: marvinbrown on September 22, 2007, 03:20:37 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 22, 2007, 03:18:06 PM
Welcome, Marvin! You're in for an epochal journey. :D

  Thank you Lilas  :)

  marvin
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 22, 2007, 03:30:07 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on September 22, 2007, 03:13:26 PM

  TODAY, SEPTEMBER 22, 2007 I discovered Bruckner for the first time in my life. I will spend all of next week listening to Bruckner's symphonies. 

Lucky you! If you're bowled over by symphonies 0 and 00, prepare to be overwhelmed! Mountains are looming...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mark on September 22, 2007, 03:38:10 PM
Keep an ear open for No. 7, Marvin. My favourite of them all. ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on September 22, 2007, 03:43:59 PM
I wish I started with the first ones. It'd probably have made my head fall off by the time I had reached the last few :D

Glad you chose the Jochum, and glad you didn't go for the best ones first, it will make listening through them all more rewarding.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: marvinbrown on September 22, 2007, 03:53:45 PM
Quote from: Lethe on September 22, 2007, 03:43:59 PM
I wish I started with the first ones. It'd probably have made my head fall off by the time I had reached the last few :D

Glad you chose the Jochum, and glad you didn't go for the best ones first, it will make listening through them all more rewarding.

  Lethe, in all honesty, I did not know what to expect with Bruckner.  So I figured start at the beginning, I did some minor reading and picked the first 2 symphonies Bruckner composed.  I instantly loved what I was hearing, much like my first reaction to Wagner......this sort of thing does not happen very often and when it does its a real joy. Sadly with Mahler the initial reaction was not so pleasant. 

  marvin
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: marvinbrown on September 22, 2007, 03:54:19 PM
Quote from: Mark on September 22, 2007, 03:38:10 PM
Keep an ear open for No. 7, Marvin. My favourite of them all. ;)

  Will do Mark  :).

  marvin
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on September 22, 2007, 04:16:27 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on September 22, 2007, 03:53:45 PM
  Lethe, in all honesty, I did not know what to expect with Bruckner.  So I figured start at the beginning, I did some minor reading and picked the first 2 symphonies Bruckner composed.  I instantly loved what I was hearing, much like my first reaction to Wagner......this sort of thing does not happen very often and when it does its a real joy. Sadly with Mahler the initial reaction was not so pleasant. 

  marvin

It's just that, if Wagner comes to mind in the first few symphonies, you're going to be over the moon with the next ones :D

Btw, you bought pretty much the ideal set with the Jochum/DG. It's less nuts (in the brass) than the EMI/Brilliant Classics one, yet represents his insights into the composer just as well.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 22, 2007, 05:41:57 PM
Listened to tonight:

Helgoland. Symphonica of London, Wyn Morris. We've discussed this already. The conception is even better than I had remembered. What a rocky, billowy ride!
Sound is much sharper that I had remembered it to be, and it's probably different (early digital remastering) than the spacious and well-defined LP recording I hear in my memory.

Symphony no. 6. Two versions: Leonard Bernstein and the NYPO , and Heinz Rögner and the Rundfunk Sinfonie Orchester Berlin. Both are live recordings dating from 1976 (presumably Avery Fisher Hall) and 2001 (Berlin's Philharmonie) respectively.

The Bernstein didn't strike me as wholly successful. In the first movement he doesn't seem to know exactly how he wants it to go, almost as if he's feeling his way into the movement. The massive broadening in the coda makes the movement sound like it's progressively running out of steam, and the big ritard on the last chord sounds gratuitous. The Adagio is superb, sweet and seraphic in feeling. Scherzo and Finale are well paced, but again I could do without the rhetorical broadening at the end. The orchestra doesn't sound like it understands the music. Still, this is characterful and shows a powerful personality shaping the proceedings.

Rögner has practically the same timings as Bernstein's and these two readings are indeed alone in my collection to show the same ratio of speeds relative to one another. This orchestra has the music in its bones and the difference is striking right at the outset. They play better, make more sense of the mendelssohnian winds/string balance and their brass is more homogeneous. The conductor has some of the same ideas though: rhetorical broadenings on the codas of I and IV, but more smoothly achieved. One senses a slowdown, not a heavy braking.

I prefer the Rögner and would term it as good as the Haitink COA, Jochum BRSO, Lopez-Cobos Cincinnati, Kegel Leipzig, but slightly behind the two Leitners, the Keilberth BPO , Bongartz Leipzig Gewandhaus and Stein VPO. It's been too long since I heard the Celibidache and Klemperer, but if memory serves, they wouldn't be in the first rank.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 24, 2007, 04:09:32 AM
Happy Brucknerosis to Marvinbrown!

A disease with no known cure!

Except maybe continuing the journey to Mahler and Schoenberg!    :o

I first came upon Bruckner via the score of the Seventh Symphony and then Jochum's DGG recording.

Quite a spiritual experiment for our colleague Marvinbrown to follow the earliest study symphonies to the mighty Ninth!    0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: marvinbrown on September 24, 2007, 12:50:27 PM
Quote from: Cato on September 24, 2007, 04:09:32 AM
Happy Brucknerosis to Marvinbrown!

A disease with no known cure!

Except maybe continuing the journey to Mahler and Schoenberg!    :o

I first came upon Bruckner via the score of the Seventh Symphony and then Jochum's DGG recording.

Quite a spiritual experiment for our colleague Marvinbrown to follow the earliest study symphonies to the mighty Ninth!    0:)

  Thank you Cato.  My order was dispatched today (First Class postage) and should arrive tomorrow.  My plan is simple, one symphony every night after work starting chronologically 1 -> 9.  When exploring new composers, I usually like to start at the beginning (Beethoven was an exception),  I like to see (or hear) where the composer came from.  I was surprised to read after hearing symphony no.00 "study symphony" that Bruckner was "plagued with doubt as to his own capabilities which came from his crtitics' harsh comments and friends who thought that they could help by changing the content of his works"- and they say a friend in need is a friend indeed! 

These early symphonies are quite remarkable- filled with so much emotion- they certianly caught my attention.

  marvin     

 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 24, 2007, 03:01:43 PM
Next Saturday there's an organ concert I could attend. On the program, a transcription of the third symphony. Has anyone ever heard such transcripts? I know there's a disc of it, which I've never seen. It seems to me that, of all the symphonies, the third might be the best suited for that kind of thing. The eight has been done (Rogg), but I don't like it. And of course, a recording can't compare to an organ concert in situ.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on September 24, 2007, 03:12:15 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 24, 2007, 03:01:43 PM
Next Saturday there's an organ concert I could attend. On the program, a transcription of the third symphony. Has anyone ever heard such transcripts? I know there's a disc of it, which I've never seen. It seems to me that, of all the symphonies, the third might be the best suited for that kind of thing. The eight has been done (Rogg), but I don't like it. And of course, a recording can't compare to an organ concert in situ.

I didn't like the 8th either. There is another organ disc which has a few transcriptions on (6th sym adagio, study sym scherzo) by Erwin Horn on the Novalis label, but I'm not convinced by the idea.

The 6th adagio in particular cannot help sounding choppy during the big themes, perhaps demonstrating that Bruckner DID write idiomatically for orchestra, as it wasn't successful in organ form, at least on this disc...

Good luck with the concert though - make us a bootleg recording of it :P
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 24, 2007, 03:19:59 PM
Well, I'm an organ fan, it's a nice Casavant, and a large church with fine acoustics (same venue as those Nézet-Séguin Bruckner recordings). So I might give it a try and forget my preconceptions at the door ;). .

Also on the program, transcriptions of Wagner's Pilgrim's Chorus (Tannhaüser) and Ride of the Walkyrie, and the Wesendonck lieder. For some reason, I'm more skeptical about those...

It's a konzept thing, titled Hommage à Wagner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on September 24, 2007, 03:39:37 PM
Organ transcription of Ride of the Valkyres...  :o I guess nobody can claim that organists don't have a sense of humour ;D

Even if the Bruckner is boring, that would make the visit worth it... Oh man, I am reeling from imagining how funny that Ride could be... :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on September 24, 2007, 03:52:15 PM
To throw a little change of topic in this thread, anyone have strong recording preferences for the String Quintet?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on September 24, 2007, 03:58:28 PM
Quote from: edward on September 24, 2007, 03:52:15 PM
To throw a little change of topic in this thread, anyone have strong recording preferences for the String Quintet?

It would be deceptive for me to recommend the recording I have without saying that it's the only that I have heard - but it's very well played and really turned me onto the piece: Melos Quartet, Harmonia Mundi. It's currently available in a digipak (yuck) on their budget Musique d'Abord label. The other commonly recommended option is L'Archibudelli, which I haven't heard, but can't be a bad choice.

I have a few vinyl rips by the Amadeus and Keller quartets, but I haven't really given them much of a listen. Too much music, too little time...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 24, 2007, 05:13:46 PM
I've known and loved the Melos for over 30 years. Its latest incarnaiton is on Harmonia Mundi. Then there's the clean, elegant Raphael ensemble on Hyperion, and my favourite is the probing, gusty Leipziger Streichquartette on MDG. I yet have to hear the L'Archibudellli version. Any comments on that one?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 25, 2007, 04:04:52 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on September 24, 2007, 12:50:27 PM
  Thank you Cato.  My order was dispatched today (First Class postage) and should arrive tomorrow.  My plan is simple, one symphony every night after work starting chronologically 1 -> 9.  When exploring new composers, I usually like to start at the beginning (Beethoven was an exception),  I like to see (or hear) where the composer came from.  I was surprised to read after hearing symphony no.00 "study symphony" that Bruckner was "plagued with doubt as to his own capabilities which came from his crtitics' harsh comments and friends who thought that they could help by changing the content of his works"- and they say a friend in need is a friend indeed! 

These early symphonies are quite remarkable- filled with so much emotion- they certianly caught my attention.

  marvin     

 

Later some of his "student friends" (the notorious Schalk Brothers, Franz and Joseph)would edit the symphonies into performing versions which were awful:

http://books.google.com/books?id=o8ejri7nVZYC&pg=PA192&lpg=PA192&dq=schalk+brothers&source=web&ots=k9ir0K1Jjp&sig=20VXaSt8EmT-Spcb1fB6OgudeLg#PPA192,M1

Their work is parallel with my experience with "literary editors" who are actually frustrated writers with no talent, no style, and no soul, but still fancy themselves able to "improve" someone's book with their "helpful hints"...except they aren't.    8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: cx on October 06, 2007, 05:40:54 AM
Quote from: Keemun on October 04, 2007, 10:14:54 AM
I've not heard this recording yet, is it really that superior to other recordings of Bruckner's 8th?

No. Not in my opinion, anyway, and I don't think I'm alone. I own the said recording and think it's a very fine account, but I'll reach for Böhm, Giulini, Jochum, Barbirolli, Kubelik, Furtwängler, Boulez, and Wand before Karajan (all very different approaches). Karajan and the WP certainly achieve something unique, but not entirely to my taste, and certainly not the last word on Bruckner. This is a prolifically recorded work, and necessarily so -- no one recording can cover the range of emotions and soundscapes this symphony is capable of producing.

--CS
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 06, 2007, 10:12:23 AM
One conductor's approach - and its relative success - can vary widely over time. Böhm, Karajan, Haitink, Celibidache, Wand and Jochum for example have recorded the 8th 3 to 8 times each, with vastly different results. For each of these four conductors I would not hesitate to pick one recording among my favourites, while the other 2 or 3 they committed would be some way down the list.

Even the 1949 Furtwängler BPO exists in apparently similar versions, but the results are different enough to make one a firm recommendation (the March 15 performance), while the other is only half-baked (March 14).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on October 09, 2007, 12:28:04 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 06, 2007, 10:12:23 AM
Even the 1949 Furtwängler BPO exists in apparently similar versions, but the results are different enough to make one a firm recommendation (the March 15 performance), while the other is only half-baked (March 14).
Not to mention the various pirate issues of March 14, which are actually a mixture of the two performances. Buyer beware!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on October 23, 2007, 11:50:28 AM
There are two recorded performances (That i know of). One by Johannes Wildner with NPW and the other by Kurt Eichhorn with BOL. Although they use the same score, the performance are very different. For instance, Wildner's finale lasted 23 minutes, while Eichhorn's lasted an amazing 30 minutes! Personally, I prefer the Wildner version, as for the completion. There were some less than spectacular moments in the finale, for instance; it felt as if traces of 8th symphony was "pasted" onto the score, and it had a few awkward timpani beats atypical to Bruckner's usual rhythms... These "deficiencies" however, did not effect the overall quality of the completion. The ending was convincingly "Brucknerian". Moreover, it is a fact that almost everything in SPMC were actually written by Bruckner himself.

Does anyone like this finale? What do you guys think about it?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 23, 2007, 03:46:31 PM
Define SPMC please...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on October 23, 2007, 05:17:41 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 23, 2007, 03:46:31 PM
Define SPMC please...

from wikipedia:
Samale/Mazzuca/Phillips/Cohrs completion (1992 / rev. 1996 / new rev. 2005)

For this venture Samale and Mazzuca were joined by John A. Phillips and Benjamin-Gunnar Cohrs. This completion proposes one way to realize Bruckner's intention to combine themes from all four movements. This version has been recorded by Johannes Wildner and also by Kurt Eichhorn, with the Bruckner Orchestra of Linz, for the Camerata label.

A new, revised edition of this completion was published in 2005 by Nicola Samale and Benjamin-Gunnar Cohrs (www.musikmph.de). Cohrs´ latest research made it also possible to recover the musical content of one missing bifolio in the Fugue fully from the particello-sketch. This new edition, in all 665 bars long, makes use of 569 bars from Bruckner himself.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on October 24, 2007, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on October 23, 2007, 11:50:28 AM
There are two recorded performances (That i know of). One by Johannes Wildner with NPW and the other by Kurt Eichhorn with BOL. Although they use the same score, the performance are very different. For instance, Wildner's finale lasted 23 minutes, while Eichhorn's lasted an amazing 30 minutes! Personally, I prefer the Wildner version, as for the completion. There were some less than spectacular moments in the finale, for instance; it felt as if traces of 8th symphony was "pasted" onto the score, and it had a few awkward timpani beats atypical to Bruckner's usual rhythms... These "deficiencies" however, did not effect the overall quality of the completion. The ending was convincingly "Brucknerian". Moreover, it is a fact that almost everything in SPMC were actually written by Bruckner himself.

Does anyone like this finale? What do you guys think about it?

I haven't heard the Eichhorn version. Compared to the abysmal Talmi recording, the Wildner is excellent. I was also positively surprised by the first three movements and the orchestral execution generally. Do you have the Harnoncourt performance of the fragments with his lecture? The version Talmi recorded seemed to have made every (mis)"correction" and mistake that Harnoncourt complains of in his lecture. The Wildner, by contrast seems to contain all of the original material that Harnoncourt performs in his lecture. The rest (which includes some transitions mostly) is of course made up. But the Wildner version is the most convincing completion I have heard so far. I guess we will  never know what the final fugue on key themes from his major symphonies was really supposed to sound like.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on October 24, 2007, 02:30:15 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on October 24, 2007, 02:26:09 PM
I haven't heard the Eichhorn version. Compared to the abysmal Talmi recording, the Wildner is excellent. I was also positively surprised by the first three movements and the orchestral execution generally. Do you have the Harnoncourt performance of the fragments with his lecture? The version Talmi recorded seemed to have made every (mis)"correction" and mistake that Harnoncourt complains of in his lecture. The Wildner, by contrast seems to contain all of the original material that Harnoncourt performs in his lecture. The rest (which includes some transitions mostly) is of course made up. But the Wildner version is the most convincing completion I have heard so far. I guess we will  never know what the final fugue on key themes from his major symphonies was really supposed to sound like.

Yes, I have the Harnoncourt one, but his version is not really a "performing" version. He just played the fragments (with added commentary). Comprehensive though they were, the music is still unfinished.

What's so great about Wildner's recording is that it uses the newest material, and more impressively it offers an "ending" that most of us would find satisfying.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 24, 2007, 07:21:13 PM
I haven't heard any completion that sounded remotely satisfying to my ears, including those heard on the Inbal, eichhorrn or Wildner versions. But on an interpretive basis, I give high marks to the Eichhorn. I doubt very much that this particular quest will ever result in any satisfactory result. I have the same problem with the various Mahler 10 completions. They all sound woefully incomplete, sort of watching skeletons parade with Chanel, Versace or Gautier outfits. Under the fabric, colours and variously (un)felicitous shapes, the bones are poking uncomfortably.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 24, 2007, 07:49:56 PM
Heard tonight at the Symphony:

Bach: concerto no. 1, with Peter Serkin
Bruckner: Symphony no. 2
Herbert Blomstedt cond. the Montreal SO.


The Bach worked much better than I had thought it would. Surprisingly well, actually. Good choice from the soloist, and excellent rapport between him and the conductor. I only question the rather bizarre choice of a tinkly harpsichord in the continuo.

The symphony was of course the major offering here, and I was surprised to see that the hall was rather well filled (1800-2000 by rough estimate). This is a rarely performed work, and the first time I ever heard it in concert. Maestro Blomsted is an old hand at Bruckner, having recorded some of the symphonies
with quite superb results (his Dresden 7th earns my unabated admiration, and the Leipzig 9th is close behind). This was only the second time I was hearing him in concert, and both times it was in Bruckner ! Apparently, there might be a cycle in the works (John Berky thinks so).

One of the salient features of tonight's concert was the choice of the Carragan version (revised 1995). This is much fuller than the olden Haas or Nowak versions that have been recorded many times in the sixties and seventies. That lasts some 53-58 minutes, whereas this performance went on for a goodish 65' (Tintner goes on to an unprecedented 72'). I'm a bit confused as to the status of this version. Berky's site mentions two Carrragan efforts. One is labeled "1872 First concept version. Ed. William Carragan [2005]" and the other "1873 First performance version. Ed. William Carragan" with no mention of date. So, given that the program notes mention 1995, I'd assume this would be "1873 First performance version. Ed. William Carragan". But Berky's site gives the middle movements' order for this as Adagio and Scherzo, whereas what we heard was Scherzo and Adagio (the order Berky gives for the 2005 version!). Are you still with me? ::)

In any case, this concert was hugely successful, with the orchestra giving their all, and the audience erupting in surprisingly enthusiastic ovations at the end (Mr B. came back 3 times to acknowledge the applause). Whatever, it didn't change my view of this symphony as probably the most episodic in the  Bruckner canon. It is entirely typical and quite wonderful in itself, but it lacks a few key ingredients the composer was to develop over time: a strong, flowing and thematically memorable slow movement (however seraphic that concluding horn solo is, it doesn't a great adagio make) - and a taut, tightly constructed Finale. The latter point could be argued, and I suspect I could easily be mollified, but I still thing the best case for this symphony is made in the later revisions (as exemplified by the Giulini, Stein, Karajan, Haitink and Jochum recordings).

Notwithstanding, if ever a recording materializes and you're interested in the second, this would possibly be THE version to have. HB is pushing 80, but like former Montreal SO MD Franz-Paul Decker (well into his eighties), he is a masterful Bruckner conductor and his unflagging energy carries huge conviction and sweeps any reservations by the wayside.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on October 24, 2007, 09:59:15 PM
I realized Blomstedt's mastery of Bruckner's music not long ago. By sheer luck, I encountered a live recording of him conducting Bruckner's 3rd (1873 Verison) with SFS. That was an amazing performance, and i was quite shocked that SFS never released it on CD.

I will, in the near future, share this wonderful performance with everyone.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 25, 2007, 05:43:02 AM
Please do!

Apparently, Mr. Carragan was in the audience last night. That might give credence to rumours of future recordings. Something's cooking in the kitchen.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on October 25, 2007, 06:44:38 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on October 24, 2007, 02:30:15 PM
Yes, I have the Harnoncourt one, but his version is not really a "performing" version. He just played the fragments (with added commentary). Comprehensive though they were, the music is still unfinished.

I didn't claim it was. Like I said in my initial post: "the Harnoncourt performance of the fragments". It's just helpful as background in order to know what's original and what's not in the various completions.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on October 25, 2007, 07:06:15 AM
recorded live from Louise M. Davies Symphony Hall. 2005 10.14

http://www.mediafire.com/?11zzhnw2wss

http://www.mediafire.com/?2dus4rc5b4f

http://www.mediafire.com/?80mnmqzns9p

http://www.mediafire.com/?9evjy5xxxa2
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Keemun on October 25, 2007, 07:36:09 AM
MahlerTitan, thanks for uploading those!   :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 25, 2007, 09:32:26 AM
I re-listened to the NAXOS CD of the Finale of the Bruckner Ninth conducted by Johannes Wildner last night, and compared it to the Carragan version.

Certainly the Wildner version gives a greater hint at the structural and emotional complexity which Bruckner was imagining, especially the unexpected return of the 1st movement's huge opening proclamation, and the dissonant clashing in several of the climaxes goes beyond the earlier version. 

Still, we are not yet there yet, and can only hope some archive has the last parts of the puzzle: supposedly the entire movement was completed in unorchestrated form, but taken as souvenirs by his students and others after Bruckner's death.

See also :

http://mahlerarchives.net/archives/cyphersB9.pdf
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 28, 2007, 05:55:17 PM
I've gone through all my personal recordings of the 6th symphony in the past couple of months. Of all Bruckner's symphonies, the 6th is probably the only one that never makes me want to stop replaying it until I've exhausted all possible listening sessions. Like all the other symphonies from 2 to 9 it's endlessly fascinating. But unlike the others, it never overwhelms me emotionally or sonically. It just begs for repat visits! The slow movement in particular is a thing of endless beauty and wonder.  It is framed by 3 other movements where rythmic emphasis rules, probably the reason why Bruckner famously termed the symphony his boldest (« die sechste ist die keckste »)

Footnote : the first movement is marked  « Majestoso ». The 'j' in Majestoso is possibly a misspelling of the Italian Maestoso, as the German word is majestätisch. The « j »  is thus not a misprint, but possibly an ur-misspelling from the composer!

I'll quote here from a very good web article for a short description of the work :

QuoteAlthough a work with many fine passages, and a great deal of internal consistency, the sixth has always been regarded as somewhat imperfect; as Bruckner specialist Georg Tintner put it, it consists of "three perfect movements, and one [the finale] that is somewhat problematic."

it is distinguished by richly varied orchestration and hugely contrasted thematic ideas. The opening movement begins with an urgent rhythmic ostinato played by the violins [I liken this rythmic figure to a morse code message]; The opening ostinato figure returns frequently and unaltered as the movement progresses, and becomes especially potent at the climax of the development section. During the coda, trumpets and horns challenge each other antiphonally, as if sounding across vast distances of time and space.

The Adagio which follows is Bruckner's only symphonic slow movement in conventional sonata form  [I love that one above all other Bruckner slow movements]. The hymn-like F major opening theme suggests reverential awe in an elegiac string threnody, over which the oboe responds plaintively. A second theme lightens the texture, with a richly-hued episode for strings, but particularly impressive is the extended and yearning coda, after the manner of a funeral march [NB : personally I see this as a distinct theme, but it does immediately follow the second one] .

The scherzo is perhaps the most fantastical of any to be found among Bruckner's nine symphonies; whereas others are bucolic and rustic in mood, this is demonic and threatening, its fearsome tensions only assuaged during the more relaxed trio section.

The finale presents an austere, purposeful idea for the violins, on which the second clarinet comments; a contrasting lyrical melody follows. The music progresses in urgent style.  When the long-awaited resolution arrives, Bruckner brings back the ostinato rhythm heard at the start of the symphony, along with its main first subject idea, now played by three trombones.

Here are the versions I've heard, presented in alphabetical order. A short comment will follow and a RebLem-type notation follows (like it or hate it, it's still rather convenient to use!). First note is for conducting and orchestral playing, second for sound). Timings are taken from Berky's discography.

Bernstein NYP (1976) a  live, not a commercial recording). 56:48 15:29 17:31 8:41 14:29.   Bernstein has some excellent ideas, but they don't cohere within movements, and he doesn't seem to have an integrated conception of the work. And his orchestra is not quite idiomatic (whatever that means – but you know when you hear it). Still, it's powerful and fervently put across. The best movement is the seraphic Adagio. .................... 8/7

Bongartz , Leipzig Gewandhaus O. (Berlin Classics, 1964). 58:31 17:25 18:10 8:24 14:32. This is the best of all recordings I know. The conductor's vision is a bold, energetic, emphatic one. Orchestral playing is brilliant and massively sonorous, fully the equal of what one would expect from Berlin, Chicago or Vienna. And yet it coheres beautifully and never sounds like a military operation. Note that this version takes a couple minutes more for the first movement, emphasizing the majestoso marking, but with sharp rythmic accentuation. 10/9

Celibidache Munich Philharmonic O.  (EMI 1991 –live). 62:29 17:02 22:01 8:18 15:08 . Here'a description I found on the net to which I can't add or take away anything : « Celibidache directs an amiable reading, not as brilliant or precise in ensemble as the finest but warm and convincing, with some wonderful playing. He steers an ideal course between expressive warmth and architectural strength. At slower speeds than usual, Celibidache's rhythmic lift both in the slow movement and in the finale brings exhilarating results, sparkling and swaggering. Throughout, Celi has an unerring sense of purpose and the momentum never slackens ». True, but I miss a sense of militantism and exultation. Atttacks are uniformly soft and a bit spongy. 8/9

Haitink, Concertgebouw O (Philips 1970)
53:59 15:16 17:25 7:51 13:27. This has long been one of my favourite performances. It sparkles, glows with a dark luminescence (the orchestra's familiar burnished yet trenchant sound), and the conductor never imposes any specific ideas that would impede the flow of the music. It's unimpeachable.  9/10

Jochum Bavarian Radio S. O.  (DGG 1966) 55:05 16:31 17:08 7:55 13:20. The above comment could also be used to describe the Jochum version, with the difference that Jochum is more impulsive, his orchestra lighter and brighter of tone, and the recording more dated. Overall it's not as characterful or imposing as the Staatskapelle Dresden from 1978 (56:23 16:11 18:36 7:58 13:35). The latter is probably the best among the easily obtainable commercial recordings. The orchestra play as if they own the core. 7/7 and 9/8 respectively.

Kegel with the Leipzig Radio Symphony O.  (1972, Ode Classics
- 55:15 16:22 15:33 8:18 14:56). This is very audibly from the same cultural and musical school of interpretation and playing as the Bongartz and Dresden Jochum versions. These orchestras play with a tonal heft and rythmic sharpness that makes the work sound huge, downright immense at times. This orchestral culture requires from the conductor the patience to let the players sound the notes with the fullest possible tone. And that, in turn, requires the tempi to be relatively broad (note the timing of the finale here). This Kegel version is notable for the orchestra's gargantuan but slightly blunt tonal resources and the rather emphatic conducting. Overall it's hugely imposing, in a Götterdämmrung-like way. Not my favourite, but highly original. 9/7

Klemperer and the Concertgebouw (1961, Living Stage). 51:00 17:12 12:43 8:34 12:07. Note here some timing idiosyncrasies :  they are not printing mistakes! At the beginning the 'morse code' rythmic figure is played with an arthritic, comatose, legotoese feeling that makes one's jaw drop – and the first theme has not even been sounded! When it does it is suitably swaggering, in a slightly ragged way.At that tempo, the whole movement should last over 22 minutes. But no : Bongartz and Celibidache have the same overall timing. The rest of the movement has the speeds lurching forward and backward at will, but somehow it's always arresting and despite orchestral infelicities (the players must have been through hell that night!) it's a really interesting reading. The odd thing about the adagio is that at that very flowing tempo I never had any sense of rush or undue speed. Like an Eroica Marcia Funebre of the same length it can be made to work.  But enough said. Nobody but the diehard completist will place an order for this when there are at least a dozen more idiomatic performances readily available. I like it for its sheer perversity, but will not make it a recommendation. 8/5

Keilberth and the Berlin Philharmonic (1963, Telefunken
- 55:50 17:06 14:40 8:46 15:18). This is probably my second favourite version. It has all that Bongartz offers, with slightly less 'face' to the conducting, but more refined tone from the orchestra. Here the BPO cover themselves in glory. They have the chops to play the work to the hilt without ever sounding crass or overbearing. They deliver tons of decibels but also loads of refined tone and sensitive phrasing. Probably the most remarkably played version around. The 1963 sound is better than all but the most recent efforts. A classic. 10/9

Leitner and the SWR O. Baden-Baden und Freiburg (1982, Hänssler classics
- 55:45 15:47 15:28 9:18 15:05) : This is on a par with the Bongartz and Keilberth versions. Probably the most 'natural' of all interpretations I've heard. All the qualities of power, beauty, refinement, resilience and exhilaration I want to hear are heard in this recording, but within  a calmly authoritative vision that gives the feeling of inevitability. The orchestra is spectacularly natural and authoritative. Recorded sound is magnificent : spacious and translucent, sonorous and well detailed, with beautiful front to back perspective. No 'in your face' agression here. (NB : this is famously coupled with the same conductor's staggering Hartmann 6th symphony). 10 years later Leitner revisited the work with the Basel Sinfonieorchester (live recording on Accord (61:55 18:02 18:13 9:09 16:23). I use the word 'revisited', in its secondary meaning of "reconsider" or "reevaluate". Note here that  three of the movements have considerably broadedned, making this the longest of all (not counting Celibidache's eccentrically elongated Adagio). This version demands patience form the listener but it is repaid in spades, as what comes across is a magnificent symphonic edifice of immense beauty and huge power. Rythms are still sharply etched, but orchestral attacks are slightly blunted à la Celi, so to speak. Altogether this is a specialist's version which I heartily recommend to those who have so far concentrated on the sharply rythmic versions and wish to explore the work's inherent beauty and grandeur. 10/10 and 9/10 respectively.

Lopez-Cobos and the Cincinnati S. O. (1991 Telarc, 56:44 16:00 17:52 8:21 14:14). This is the lyrical pendant to the slightly more youthful Haitink version. Lopez-cobos emphasizes the beauty of the scoring, the plasticity of the themes, the nobility of the end movements. Note too that his orchestra has darker trombones and trumpets, wherear Haitink's has bolder horns and more ringing trumpets. Both are like healthy, similarly good-looking siblings with a slightly different personality : one outgoing and dynamic, the other at once strong yet sensual. An excellent choice. 9/10.

Heinz Rögner and the Rundfunk sinfonieorchester Berlin (2000, Audio Pure Music 60:00 16:12 18:01 8:54 16:36 – NB : not to be confused with the 1980 recording, a vastly different recording of some 8 minutes' shorter duration). Another version in the Bongartz-Kegel mould. Hard-hitting and boldly assertive, but less sharply contoured than either. Excellent in its way (they all feature my preferred B6 orchestral sound), but it gives short shrift to the work's never absent mendelssohnian influences. 8/9

Skrowaczewski and the Saarbrücken (or Saarland) Radio Orchestra. On Arte Nova
- 56:53 15:39 18:36 8:43 13:53. note that this is the closest in timing to the Haitink version, but it's an entirely different interpretation. Frankly, it's a bit faceless. Efficient and proficient, but ultimately deficient (too low-keyed). I could certainly imagine someone liking this and learning to love the work through it (quite an accomplishment), but there's a lot more that remains to be discovered through a more adventurous, bolder interpretative stance. 7/9

Horst Stein and the Vienna Philharmonic. This is a Decca recording from 1972 (54:41 16:42 16:10 8:06 13:43). It is one of the top three or four among this list. First and foremost one notices the orchestra's Rolls-Royce refinement and Ferrari power. Stein's best attribute is his ability to let this great orchestra do their thing as only they can. This sounds utterly different from any other version I've heard : it's not just the famous brass, but the strings ands winds lend their inimitable colour to the interpretation. In a sense, this is as 'exotic' sounding as could be imagined. It has such refinement and authority that it's hard to imagine it done any other way. Brilliant, colourful, sweepingly dynamic playing. Grandly resonant and bold recording, with powerful and precise bass - one of the very best around. 9.5 / 10.

In short : Bongartz, Keilberth, Leitner SWR  and Stein. These four. 


It's been  too long since I last heard the Karajan, Barenboim CSO, Klemperer Philharmonia, Tintner and Sawallisch, but while they were in my possession they all left something to be desired. Of those I wish I could hear are the various Blomstedts and Wands
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on October 28, 2007, 05:57:31 PM
Awesome post, I read your reviews in this thread with interest, and your 6th reviews in particular have given me several names I haven't heard in Bruckner to check out.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on October 28, 2007, 07:27:29 PM
Very nice reviews, informative too. I haven't started on the 6th yet, (I am currently infatuated with the 00, 2,3rd symphonies, but i'll get to the 6th sooner or later). There are some names there that i don't have a clue about, like Bongartz? Kegel? Who? I would like to know more about them. I also heard some of the recording on your list, but i need more "careful" listenings to actually "understand" the work. I am also in the process of getting hold of a Keilberth copy. And last but not least, could you please be so kind as to share the Bernstein 6th with us?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on October 28, 2007, 08:28:15 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 28, 2007, 05:55:17 PM
I've gone through all my personal recordings of the 6th symphony

I think you pretty much covered it.  If you can't find a compatible recording in that list, forget it.

One thing I love about the Celibidache is that it is so much more Romantic and colorful than any other 6th I've heard.  Really a very different sound conception.  Actually, I'd say the same about the 3rd from Stuttgart.

Also, I love the Klemperer studio recording for it's huge soundstage and pinpoint imaging.  Great fun to listen to when I had the big Dunlavy speakers spread out.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 29, 2007, 12:58:14 PM
Hi, there everybody, thanks for the kind words. This was just what you call a labour of love :D.

Briefly: Kegel, Bongartz, Rögner, Konwitschny, Suitner and Leitner are names you will see in the austro-german concert circuit (the radio orchestras mostly) and although they are not as well known as Keilberth and Tintner, they are of the same caliber, if not higher (I'm thinking of Tintner in particular, who is overrated IMO). What militates against their standing in the "famous conductors" roster has nothing to do with their musical culture or technical abilities, and everything to do with the relative isolation brought by concentrating their carreer locally. With no or little "western" appointments (particularly true if they worked in the former GDR), their status was more or less that of "Heinz Who?" or "Otmar What?". Only if you land a position in Munich, Vienna, Dresden and Berlin will English or Americans take note. As for the French, never mind, they wouldn't pay attention anyway. ::). Getting a stint in Bayreuth helps (cf. Knappertsbusch, Keilberth, Kraus), but other than that, we have to be content with those radio releases (note how many "Rundfunk" discs are included!).

With the extremely high technical level these orchestras have, and given a conductor who has been steeped in the tradition and soundworld of Bruckner, I'd have no hesitation top pick them any day over their more famous colleagues. There is simply no substitute for the REAL austro-german orchestra sound and their musical culture. The end result is audibly superior in most cases. And that's the only thing that counts in my book!

I'd have to check where I got that Bernstein link. If it's still in my Outlook I can get it easily here. If it's on my hard disc only that means I 'd have to upload it. Now, that's something entirely different for me: I've never done it before!!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on October 29, 2007, 01:03:36 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 29, 2007, 12:58:14 PM

I'd have to check where I got that Bernstein link. If it's still in my Outlook I can get it easily here. If it's on my hard disc only that means I 'd have to upload it. Now, that's something entirely different for me: I've never done it before!!

it's actually very simple.
1) go to www.mediafire.com
(create an account if you want to, although you don't have to create an account to upload)
2) upload your file. it takes some time, the speed depends on your internet connection.
3) copy and paste the link it gives you
4) done!

note: if the file(s) added together are less than 100mb, you should seriously consider zipping all the movements up, before upload.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 29, 2007, 04:45:27 PM
http://www.mediafire.com/?0vvyamn3zzm
http://www.mediafire.com/?co3cvxy42yr
http://www.mediafire.com/?dy5ywym3h2h
http://www.mediafire.com/?0ovb0cywlx3

(crossing fingers) Tell me if it works ...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on October 29, 2007, 09:36:14 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 29, 2007, 04:45:27 PM
http://www.mediafire.com/?0vvyamn3zzm
http://www.mediafire.com/?co3cvxy42yr
http://www.mediafire.com/?dy5ywym3h2h
http://www.mediafire.com/?0ovb0cywlx3

(crossing fingers) Tell me if it works ...

Great, it works fine. Thank you again for your great contribution!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on October 30, 2007, 01:49:27 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 28, 2007, 05:55:17 PM
Of those I wish I could hear are the various Blomstedts and Wands

Gielen / Baden-Baden and Dohnanyi / Cleveland are worth checking out. I have Wand / NDR (RCA '95) if you're interested.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 30, 2007, 04:13:56 AM
Ben , yeah, all three of them! :D

I still have to warm up to Dohnanyi's Bruckner, but Gielen is tops in 5 and 7 (brisk and sinewy readings, totally different from his vast, expansive 8 )
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: david johnson on October 31, 2007, 02:02:55 AM
go bongartz!  i'll have to check that stein.

dj
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on November 01, 2007, 03:56:09 PM
Anyone here listened to Dohnanyi's Bruckner? Hurwitz gave him high marks, what do you guys think?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on November 01, 2007, 05:58:59 PM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on November 01, 2007, 03:56:09 PM
Anyone here listened to Dohnanyi's Bruckner? Hurwitz gave him high marks, what do you guys think?

I will hear him do the 4th live with the CSO on Saturday. Will report.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: david johnson on November 02, 2007, 01:10:27 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on November 01, 2007, 03:56:09 PM
Anyone here listened to Dohnanyi's Bruckner? Hurwitz gave him high marks, what do you guys think?

i did not enjoy it.

dj
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 02, 2007, 03:26:57 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on November 01, 2007, 03:56:09 PM
Anyone here listened to Dohnanyi's Bruckner? Hurwitz gave him high marks, what do you guys think?

If I am not mixing up my conductors, about 10 years ago I had the opportunity to hear the Cleveland Orchestra live under Dohnanyi in the Bruckner Fifth Symphony and was most impressed with everything!

I was prepared to quibble greatly, since this is probably one of the trickiest symphonies to perform satisfactorily, but any quibbling dribbled away quickly!    $:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 02, 2007, 05:42:16 AM
Interesting discussion in the Melodya Madness thread about various orchestral sound cultures in Bruckner. Obviously this centered around Melodia issues (Mrawinsky's in particular).

John Berky is making available downloads from his private collection and features them as RECORDING OF THE MONTH (http://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/downloadfile/) on his web site. And guess what? For his first offering, he gives us the 4th symphony in a Melodya issue from 1978: Emil Tchakarov conducting the Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra. ;D

And I'll be eagerly listening! :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on November 02, 2007, 05:57:08 AM
Hmm, that's an amazingly good thing for him to do - although it's totally unneccessary that he pays for the bandwidth (I imagine after a while the series will become rather popular) with so many free hosts around, hehe...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on November 02, 2007, 09:35:38 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 02, 2007, 05:42:16 AM
Interesting discussion in the Melodya Madness thread about various orchestral sound cultures in Bruckner. Obviously this centered around Melodia issues (Mrawinsky's in particular).

John Berky is making available downloads from his private collection and features them as RECORDING OF THE MONTH (http://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/downloadfile/) on his web site. And guess what? For his first offering, he gives us the 4th symphony in a Melodya issue from 1978: Emil Tchakarov conducting the Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra. ;D

And I'll be eagerly listening! :D

Berky is da man! I downloaded the recording weeks ago, it sounds fantastic! Maybe we should invite him to the forum? There is much we can learn from the Man.

Oh, btw, i recently acquired a broadcast of Nagano's Bruckner's 6th symphony with DSOB, it's actually a different performance from the harmonia mundi release, i'll upload it if anyone is interested.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on November 02, 2007, 09:38:35 AM
Quote from: Lethe on November 02, 2007, 05:57:08 AM
Hmm, that's an amazingly good thing for him to do - although it's totally unneccessary that he pays for the bandwidth (I imagine after a while the series will become rather popular) with so many free hosts around, hehe...

I advised him to upload everything on Mediafire.com, but he believed that they(files) won't stay up very long ???.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Keemun on November 02, 2007, 10:40:42 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on November 02, 2007, 09:35:38 AM
Oh, btw, i recently acquired a broadcast of Nagano's Bruckner's 6th symphony with DSOB, it's actually a different performance from the harmonia mundi release, i'll upload it if anyone is interested.

How is the performance?  If it's good, I'm interested.   :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: George on November 02, 2007, 08:13:30 PM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on November 02, 2007, 09:38:35 AM
I advised him to upload everything on Mediafire.com, but he believed that they(files) won't stay up very long ???.

That's not true, they stay up "indefinitely" according to Mediafire. I've had some stuff up over 3 months and they still download.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on November 02, 2007, 09:14:26 PM
Quote from: George on November 02, 2007, 08:13:30 PM
That's not true, they stay up "indefinitely" according to Mediafire. I've had some stuff up over 3 months and they still download.

exactly, but, i doubt that he'll listen to my advice.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on November 03, 2007, 08:18:41 PM
Quote from: Keemun on November 02, 2007, 10:40:42 AM
How is the performance?  If it's good, I'm interested.   :)

It's Kent Nagano, what do you think?  ???
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 04, 2007, 04:15:30 AM
Nagano's 8th is surprisingly decent (a Deutsche Welle broadcast with his Berlin orchestra) . But that's the only Bruckner I ever heard him do that had any interest (the others are 3, 6 on disc and 9 live). He should stay away from Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Keemun on November 04, 2007, 07:01:09 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on November 03, 2007, 08:18:41 PM
It's Kent Nagano, what do you think?  ???

Actually, I don't know what to think.  I've only heard his Bruckner 8 referenced above, and it was a while back.  I remember it sounding kind of odd.  Are you implying that it his Bruckner 6 is not any good?   ???
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on November 04, 2007, 07:37:45 AM
Quote from: Keemun on November 04, 2007, 07:01:09 AM
Actually, I don't know what to think.  I've only heard his Bruckner 8 referenced above, and it was a while back.  I remember it sounding kind of odd.  Are you implying that it his Bruckner 6 is not any good?   ???

I am implying that getting Nagano's 6th is a no-brainer. I haven't heard his 8th (the broadcast?) and 3rd, but you should pay attention to his 6th. He is probably one of the better Bruckner conductors out there, but, then that's just my opinion, you don't have to listen to me.

I have never heard his Harmonia Mundi release of the 6th, but the broadcast recording that i found is around the same period, so i don't suppose there is huge difference between the two.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Keemun on November 04, 2007, 04:31:32 PM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on November 04, 2007, 07:37:45 AM
I am implying that getting Nagano's 6th is a no-brainer. I haven't heard his 8th (the broadcast?) and 3rd, but you should pay attention to his 6th. He is probably one of the better Bruckner conductors out there, but, then that's just my opinion, you don't have to listen to me.

I have never heard his Harmonia Mundi release of the 6th, but the broadcast recording that i found is around the same period, so i don't suppose there is huge difference between the two.

Ah, thank you for the explanation.  I'm interested in listening to it if you would be so kind as to upload it for us.   ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on November 04, 2007, 04:40:34 PM
Quote from: Keemun on November 04, 2007, 04:31:32 PM
Ah, thank you for the explanation.  I'm interested in listening to it if you would be so kind as to upload it for us.   ;D

sure, i'll upload it soon.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on November 05, 2007, 06:51:13 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on November 01, 2007, 05:58:59 PM
I will hear him do the 4th live with the CSO on Saturday. Will report.

My thoughts on Dohnanyi's Bruckner 4 with the CSO here (http://tonicblotter.blogspot.com/2007/11/pope-does-bruckner.html).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on November 05, 2007, 07:00:41 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on November 05, 2007, 06:51:13 AM
My thoughts on Dohnanyi's Bruckner 4 with the CSO here (http://tonicblotter.blogspot.com/2007/11/pope-does-bruckner.html).

Nice write-up, Mensch!  :D  I like Dohnányi a lot--he just did a sensational Beethoven 5 here last week--but I don't think I've heard him do that Bruckner 4.  Your comments on his attention to inner details are similar to what I experienced, too.  And reminds me that I haven't heard any live Bruckner in quite awhile.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on November 05, 2007, 08:58:11 AM
Quote from: bhodges on November 05, 2007, 07:00:41 AM
And reminds me that I haven't heard any live Bruckner in quite awhile.

That needs to be remedied, Bruce.  ;) Though, there doesn't seem to be much Bruckner this season in NY. I only found this after a quick search.

http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_10211.html?selecteddate=11082007

http://nyphil.org/attend/season/index.cfm?page=eventDetail&eventNum=1275&seasonNum=7

http://nyphil.org/attend/season/index.cfm?page=eventDetail&eventNum=1290&seasonNum=7
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on November 05, 2007, 09:10:30 AM
I've heard two glorious Fifths in the last few years--first by Sawallisch making his return with Philadelphia, and then with Welser-Möst and Cleveland.  Muti doing the Sixth should be excellent, and I'm excited by what Maazel might make of the Eighth.  But yes, the season seems to be a little on the dry side, Bruckner-wise.  :'(

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: toledobass on November 05, 2007, 09:17:04 AM
The 'little orchestra that could' will be doing the 9th this season:

Toeldo Symphony at Rosary Cathedral (http://www.toledosymphony.com/performances/special/rosarycathedral.html)


Allan


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on November 05, 2007, 09:20:04 AM
Quote from: toledobass on November 05, 2007, 09:17:04 AM
The 'little orchestra that could' will be doing the 9th this season:

Toeldo Symphony at Rosary Cathedral (http://www.toledosymphony.com/performances/special/rosarycathedral.html)


Allan




You must be thrilled!   :D  Is that cathedral a "plus," acoustically, for this piece?  Sounds like it could be...

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 05, 2007, 09:25:31 AM
Quote from: toledobass on November 05, 2007, 09:17:04 AM
The 'little orchestra that could' will be doing the 9th this season:

Toledo Symphony at Rosary Cathedral (http://www.toledosymphony.com/performances/special/rosarycathedral.html)


Allan




And even though our big-city folks might not think it, I have followed the Toledo Symphony's "Bruckner in the Cathedral" series from its inception, and they have done spendidly so far!

Acoustically, yes, the other-worldly echoing is enormous at times, although it helps to sit up front to get the full impact of the full orchestra.

Last season's Eighth Symphony was another triumph: even my non-classical-music-loving-mathematician-twenty-something son was impressed!   :o

If you have the money, it is worth flying in to hear: you can also stay and spend a day at the Toledo Museum of Art, one of the top 10 museums in the country, with several Rembrandt's, El Greco's, etc. etc. etc. not to mention the mighty Athanor by Anselm Kiefer.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: toledobass on November 05, 2007, 09:29:45 AM
Quote from: bhodges on November 05, 2007, 09:20:04 AM
You must be thrilled!   :D  Is that cathedral a "plus," acoustically, for this piece?  Sounds like it could be...

--Bruce

It's very much a plus acoustically and visually.  There is some amazing stained glass in there.  It's the exact opposite of our usual hall so it never 'feels' right but when I review the recordings the effect is glorious. I know Stefan looked all around the city before programming the annual Bruckner offering at Rosary. Apart from having to listen to all of the grumpy musicians complaining about having to play Bruckner,  the only bummer is that the orginal program also included Messaien's L'ascension.  That is a hell of a piece and one that I wish I would have had the opportunity to play.

Allan
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on November 05, 2007, 12:46:33 PM
Quote from: Cato on November 05, 2007, 09:25:31 AM
Acoustically, yes, the other-worldly echoing is enormous at times, although it helps to sit up front to get the full impact of the full orchestra.

That reminds me of one of the mid-90s BPO European Concerts where Barenboim was conducting at the Basilica of El Escorial. At one point after the final chord Barenboim looks at the ceiling in puzzlement for what seems like several seconds, waiting for the echo to subside.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Keemun on November 05, 2007, 01:56:26 PM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on November 04, 2007, 04:40:34 PM
sure, i'll upload it soon.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on November 05, 2007, 05:33:32 PM

http://www.mediafire.com/?ae9v5km3xzv
http://www.mediafire.com/?7tcgy5mtfnt
http://www.mediafire.com/?7meejkco9fz
http://www.mediafire.com/?7gjkmmmsmi4

"Aufnahme vom Bayern Klassik Juli 3, 2005.7.3
Kissingen Sommer Festival"


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on November 06, 2007, 10:12:31 AM
is Keilberth's Bruckner 6th with BP out of print or something? I can't find it anywhere!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 06, 2007, 10:43:45 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on November 06, 2007, 10:12:31 AM
is Keilberth's Bruckner 6th with BP out of print or something? I can't find it anywhere!

Joseph Keilberth had a slam-dunk performance of Hindemith's opera Cardillac on DGG with Fischer-Dieskau in the title role.

This is now available for $10. or so on the Opera d'Oro label.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on November 06, 2007, 10:53:29 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on November 06, 2007, 10:12:31 AM
is Keilberth's Bruckner 6th with BP out of print or something? I can't find it anywhere!

Yes, it's out of print, same as his 9th with Hamburg State Orchestra, both last seen on Japanese Teldec.

His Köln 8th is just being released though

(http://www.orfeo-international.de/covers/18592g.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on November 06, 2007, 10:56:01 AM
Quote from: Drasko on November 06, 2007, 10:53:29 AM
Yes, it's out of print, same as his 9th with Hamburg State Orchestra, both last seen on Japanese Teldec.

His Köln 8th is just being released though

(http://www.orfeo-international.de/covers/18592g.jpg)

yeah, the other day I was listening Keiberth's 6th BP in the university library. I liked it very much and would like to buy it, but i can't find it anywhere! I figured it's probably out of print....

Oh, I "sampled" the 8th, but I didn't like the sound, so I chose Kubelik's 8th instead.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: marvinbrown on November 06, 2007, 01:50:57 PM

  Hello Bruckner fans, I disappeared for a while after I acquired my complete Bruckner Symphony set (Jochum-on DG).  I wanted to spend some time getting to know these symphonies well before I reported back.  I heard the complete symphony cycle once, put it aside and came back to it a few weeks later and relistened to all of them once again.  I am now on my 3rd time.  I am stunned at the sound that man creates, his symphonies appear to be composed of "blocks" of emotionally filled musical expressions that sweep the listener away.  My most favorite symphony of them all so far is the 5th, the adagio of the 5th symphony is to die for.  I kept replaying that adagio over and over again.  The 7th was my next favorite symphony- I like the contrast in style represented here- it has beautiful spiritual moments and playful moments as well. On the other hand I ran into a problem with the 9th,  couldn't quite grasp what Bruckner was trying to "represent" with that sudden eruption of horns or trumpets midway through the symphony, somebody please correct me here. I am going to have to revisit the 9th again.  Symphonies 3 "dedicated to Wagner" and 4 "romantic" also had breathtaking music.  Symphonies 1 and 2 were not as captivating on 2nd hearing as the rest, and I think at this point  I prefer the "Nullte" over the 1st symphony. I am not sure how many of you would agree with me on this one.

  Anyway just wanted to report back as I am a relative newbie to this composer and I am sure my appreciation of his works will grow in time.

  marvin   
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on November 06, 2007, 02:24:41 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on November 06, 2007, 01:50:57 PM
  Hello Bruckner fans, I disappeared for a while after I acquired my complete Bruckner Symphony set (Jochum-on DG).  I wanted to spend some time getting to know these symphonies well before I reported back.  I heard the complete symphony cycle once, put it aside and came back to it a few weeks later and relistened to all of them once again.  I am now on my 3rd time.  I am stunned at the sound that man creates, his symphonies appear to be composed of "blocks" of emotionally filled musical expressions that sweep the listener away.  My most favorite symphony of them all so far is the 5th, the adagio of the 5th symphony is to die for.  I kept replaying that adagio over and over again.  The 7th was my next favorite symphony- I like the contrast in style represented here- it has beautiful spiritual moments and playful moments as well. On the other hand I ran into a problem with the 9th,  couldn't quite grasp what Bruckner was trying to "represent" with that sudden eruption of horns or trumpets midway through the symphony, somebody please correct me here. I am going to have to revisit the 9th again.  Symphonies 3 "dedicated to Wagner" and 4 "romantic" also had breathtaking music.  Symphonies 1 and 2 were not as captivating on 2nd hearing as the rest, and I think at this point  I prefer the "Nullte" over the 1st symphony. I am not sure how many of you would agree with me on this one.

  Anyway just wanted to report back as I am a relative newbie to this composer and I am sure my appreciation of his works will grow in time.

  marvin   

good for you! You can't go wrong with Jochum, but personally I prefer the EMI cycle. I mean, you really haven't heard the 9th until you have listened to the one on EMI.

You troubles with the 9th may have something to do with the recording, i didn't like the overall recording quality of the DG cycle. I would suggest that for the symphonies that you did not enjoy, try other alternatives.

There are the important 9ths that everyone should have.

(http://wa000119.host.inode.at/images/multishop/prod488_2.jpg)
Giulini's 9th with WP - absolutely amazing performance, perfection in just about every category. Words are powerless to describe this performance, because you need to hear it in order to feel its power.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/9243149.jpg)
J.Wildner's 9th on Naxos. This performance is "special" in that it actually has the newest (at the time) completion of the 4th movemnet of the 9th. So, finally you can hear the conclusion of the 9th the way Bruckner intended.

(http://images.barnesandnoble.com/images/9720000/9729302.jpg)
Eugen Jochum's 9th on EMI.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on November 07, 2007, 07:57:42 AM
Quote from: GBJGZW on November 06, 2007, 02:24:41 PM
There are the important 9ths that everyone should have.
...

Nice, but you're missing these:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/213N03AD77L._AA130_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BDF8PNQGL._AA240_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XBFD0C7TL._AA240_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41P67W4DH5L._AA240_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ENQBG8B5L._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on November 07, 2007, 08:13:19 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on November 07, 2007, 07:57:42 AM
Nice, but you're missing these:



(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/213N03AD77L._AA130_.jpg)
i just bought the Kubelik, and i am waiting for the delivery  ;)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BDF8PNQGL._AA240_.jpg)
Barenboim? i have never heard the CSO one, how is it?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XBFD0C7TL._AA240_.jpg)
I have heard the celi, but it was so long ago, i don't remember how it was.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41P67W4DH5L._AA240_.jpg)
I generally stay away from Furtwangler, but if the sound quality is good, i might consider it

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ENQBG8B5L._AA240_.jpg)
DVD? I might not buy it, too pricey for me, but i'll try to borrow it from my library.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on November 07, 2007, 08:29:17 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on November 07, 2007, 07:57:42 AM
Nice, but you're missing these:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XBFD0C7TL._AA240_.jpg)

I've seen dead people more bewegt and lebhaft than that scherzo and before that trio mistakenly believed to know the meaning of word schnell in German.

And if you mention epiphenomena I'll upload you whole Bruckner 7 played by French National Orchestra. ;D

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on November 07, 2007, 08:37:09 AM
Quote from: Drasko on November 07, 2007, 08:29:17 AM
I've seen dead people more bewegt and lebhaft than that scherzo and before that trio mistakenly believed to know the meaning of word schnell in German.

I know, but it's still a very special performance worth hearing.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on November 07, 2007, 08:52:13 AM
oh, i found another broadcast of Bruckner's 3rd with Blomstedt and NHK:
Broadcasted Live from
Tokyo Suntory Hall on 8th February 2006

http://rapidshare.com/files/8038649/Blomstedt__NHK__SO__20060208.zip.html
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 07, 2007, 10:19:00 AM
The few Bruckner things I have heard conducted by Celibidache made me believe the man was in dire need of Bayer Aspirin for that arthritis.

Also, I came across an old-lady cult of Celibidache in Germany, and have been even more skeptical of him ever since!   :o
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on November 07, 2007, 10:23:06 AM
Quote from: GBJGZW on November 07, 2007, 08:13:19 AM
Barenboim? i have never heard the CSO one, how is it?

It's more taut and more cleanly played than the BPO version. In general, I find his earlier CSO cycle more compelling (though the 2nd & 5th from the BPO cycle are outstanding).

Quote from: GBJGZW on November 07, 2007, 08:13:19 AM
I generally stay away from Furtwangler, but if the sound quality is good, i might consider it

I don't have this particular release, but the sound quality on mine is fine. Furtwängler's 9th has to be heard to be believed. It is the most tumultuous, riveting and ultimately tragic reading I have ever heard.

Quote from: GBJGZW on November 07, 2007, 08:13:19 AM
DVD? I might not buy it, too pricey for me, but i'll try to borrow it from my library.

There are other Wand 9ths on CD as well. But I think the video performance with the NDR (IIRC recorded in the last two years of his life) is just stupendous and it has the spontaneity that his other recordings lack.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: marvinbrown on November 07, 2007, 10:26:10 AM
Quote from: GBJGZW on November 06, 2007, 02:24:41 PM
good for you! You can't go wrong with Jochum, but personally I prefer the EMI cycle. I mean, you really haven't heard the 9th until you have listened to the one on EMI.

You troubles with the 9th may have something to do with the recording, i didn't like the overall recording quality of the DG cycle. I would suggest that for the symphonies that you did not enjoy, try other alternatives.

There are the important 9ths that everyone should have.

(http://wa000119.host.inode.at/images/multishop/prod488_2.jpg)
Giulini's 9th with WP - absolutely amazing performance, perfection in just about every category. Words are powerless to describe this performance, because you need to hear it in order to feel its power.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/9243149.jpg)
J.Wildner's 9th on Naxos. This performance is "special" in that it actually has the newest (at the time) completion of the 4th movemnet of the 9th. So, finally you can hear the conclusion of the 9th the way Bruckner intended.

(http://images.barnesandnoble.com/images/9720000/9729302.jpg)
Eugen Jochum's 9th on EMI.


  Thanks for the suggestion.  The 9th gave me the most trouble and I will look into sampling other recordings to see if the response is better.  The EMI recording now is a bit late in the game for me I certainly won't want another complete cycle by the same conductor.  I will have to find individual recordings on the 9th as recommended by yourself and other Bruckner experts here.

  marvin
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on November 07, 2007, 10:31:36 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on November 07, 2007, 10:26:10 AM
  Thanks for the suggestion.  The 9th gave me the most trouble and I will look into sampling other recordings to see if the response is better.  The EMI recording now is a bit late in the game for me I certainly won't want another complete cycle by the same conductor.  I will have to find individual recordings on the 9th as recommended by yourself and other Bruckner experts here.

The Jochum/Dresden/EMI 9th is available paired with the 8th on a cheap twofer thus:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JCMZHVNBL._AA240_.jpg)

It also was once available on an even cheaper Seraphim twofer paired with the 4th.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SQNZ7ZPEL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: marvinbrown on November 07, 2007, 10:40:16 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on November 07, 2007, 10:31:36 AM
The Jochum/Dresden/EMI 9th is available paired with the 8th on a cheap twofer thus:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JCMZHVNBL._AA240_.jpg)

It also was once available on an even cheaper Seraphim twofer paired with the 4th.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SQNZ7ZPEL._AA240_.jpg)

  Oh thank you O Mensch, you have the ideal solution to my problem  :).

  marvin
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on November 07, 2007, 12:12:05 PM
Don't forget this stunning performance: out of print but still shows up in various places

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41T1X9V7C8L._SS500_.jpg)

Right now I think it's probably the 9th that gets the most play here, what with the way that Mehta brings out the disturbingly radical aspects of the score. (I wouldn't want to be without Kubelik, Furtwangler or Giulini, though, and need to revisit Jochum.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 08, 2007, 08:45:28 AM
Quote from: Drasko on November 07, 2007, 08:29:17 AM
I've seen dead people...

(http://movies.sulekha.com/moviepics/sixthsense.jpg)


That's a remarkable gift, Drasko.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on November 08, 2007, 11:48:52 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 08, 2007, 08:45:28 AM
That's a remarkable gift, Drasko.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 12, 2007, 07:51:17 AM
Two 'Romantics' yesterday, with two more to go.

The Czech Philharmonic under Franz Konwitschny: this is an old recording (1952) and unfortunately the sonic limitations per force limit the enjoyment of what is  a truly remarkable interpretation. This was taped in the cavernous expanses of the Rudolfinum, Prague. By design or by result, the strings are the major element that give this reading its overriding character. They are very present, extremely sonorous and athletic, and the constant aural focus on the string lines help give this slow reading a very propulsive character. Winds are personable but too hazy; brass and timpani are a sonic disaster. They come from way behind the rest of the orchestra, as if behind the scenes actually. The first enunciation of the forceful braas theme in I comes as a shock: it is so feeble and indistinct as to be from an electrical recording.

Despite those major limitations, this is an extremely characterful reading. The force of the conductor's personality is obvious throughout. He imparts immense dignity and sadness to the andante (one of the very best I ever heard!), and right from the start the Finale grips by the ferocious digging into the rythms from the low strings. Even such a strong personality cannot hide that movement's 'sectional' structure (one of Bruckner's most problematic movements). The coda is absolutely engulfing in its tension and power. Overall, well worth the outlay and the occasional listening.

The Leningrad Philharmonic under Emil Tchakharov. This is John Berky's "download of the month". It's a transcript form lp source (complete with surface noise). Recorded in the late seventies, in a bold, expansive yet very precise and immediate acoustic. The orchestra is the thing here. They play with boldness and complete confidence. They are as comfortable in the idiom as they would in their 'native' repertoire. The sound they make is noticeably different from what they sound like under Mrawinsky. Brass are solid and rounded, and only the occasional fruity vibrato on exposed horn notes betray a non-occidental origin. Strings are vigorous and athletic, winds never force their tone (a characteristic Mrawinskian device whereas in fortissimo passages they sound on the verge of splitting). Excellent pacing, leisurely in I, flowing in II, bracing in III and solidly steady in IV. So far, so good. But there are limitations to this recipe and its various ingredients. This is very much a 'communist' interpretation: personality is corporate, never individual. Orchestral sections invariably produce the same kind of phrasing and tone.Timpani rumble imposingly and loudly, at the very same dynamic level, whatever the climax they're playing in.  One never hears this mighty machine forcing. Everything is confidently encompassed, this great orchestra's almost limitless reserves of muscle and lung power never prodded for that extra ounce of oomph we know they can give. This reading reminds me very much of the superb Chicago-Barenboim one, without the latter's occasional impetuosity. Still, I recommend it for those who like to hear a Big Machine in full gear and perfect working order.

Too bad the very real and rewarding qualities of the Konwitschny and Tchakharov versions couldn't be combined!

Coming up soon: Furtwängler VPO (recorded in Stuttgart) and Skrowaczewski Hallé .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on November 12, 2007, 08:39:35 PM
Quote from: Feanor on November 12, 2007, 05:31:46 PM
Bogey was kind enough to refer me to this thread ...

Can somebody explain this Bruckner piece to me??  A hour of movie theme music   ???

Self-quote: "In general my Bruckner appreciation effort have been thwarted by his music".

i am not sure i understand what you are asking? please explain why you feel it is 'a hour of movie theme music"
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on November 12, 2007, 11:55:56 PM
Quote from: Feanor on November 12, 2007, 05:31:46 PM
Bogey was kind enough to refer me to this thread ...

Can somebody explain this Bruckner piece to me??  A hour of movie theme music   ???

Self-quote: "In general my Bruckner appreciation effort have been thwarted by his music".

Can't like everything :P

Perhaps try to imagine it not as dramatic depictive music, but as absolute music with deep influences from Schubert (those repetetive scherzos didn't come out of nowhere :) He also takes plenty of cues from Franz in other places) and the first movement of Beethoven's 9th, but written facing (and embracing) the realities of Wagner's advances. The influences are very evident, but his style is also perfectly honed and individual, and the results are incredibly coherent. When attuned to his style (which is admittedly quite "extreme" for a romantic), the progress of his music can seem among the most inevitable ever written, despite its very long scope, which to someone who doesn't enjoy the style can seem drawn out and without structure.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on November 13, 2007, 07:08:22 AM
Quote from: Feanor on November 13, 2007, 05:14:07 AM
Thanks for your comments, Lethe, and I will continue to listen to Bruckner for time to time.

I'm hampered by any technical understanding of music, so generally need to have the structural aspects, as well as the "deep influences", pointed out to me -- this is why I asked to have the 9th explained to me.  I general, I admit, I'm not a lover of Romantic music.  Schubert, a great genius, IMO for what that's worth, is an exception, and there are few others such as Dvorak.

If your library has it available, I would recommend the "Essence of Bruckner" book by Robert Simpson. It is considered definitive enough to probably be available from any library in any English-speaking country (although I am unsure whether in a country as large as the US or Canada, they can get books from other libraries for you like in the UK). Some CD booklet notes are very useful. The Solti/Decca cycle, for example, while not being particularly recommendable on musical terms (I bought it cheaply, fully aware of this) has a good overview of his style and use of architecture in his works - I presume the Harnoncourt booklet is less useful?

I can mention a few rambling thoughts of my own, although they are low on content and structure :P

A few observations I have made regarding the Schubert link is that Schubert had an almost unparalleled melodic gift, but lacked some of Beethoven's craft - sometimes entirely giving up on pieces which he couldn't find a way to complete, or that he had simply grown tired of. While he composed many fully-formed works, some seem to rely on that melody to carry the piece (or deciding that the piece needs no more work, and is perfect as it is) rather more than Beethoven would - and occasionally the melody may be repeated in a less developed way than another composer would.

This could have influenced Bruckner's overall style, and specifically the more literal repetition of the scherzos (which he also tended to base on folk tunes, which by their nature were simpler and less-developed than classical forms). The adagios sound further more repetitive after the scherzo (which is the movement order in the 8th and 9th - it was reversed in earlier symphonies), but the seemingly repetitive themes are modified and placed in different contexts much more than in the more literal repetition of the scherzos. The 9th is possibly the worst example of this type of folk-based scherzo theme though, as it is has a unique position in his work - no other movement written by him is so relentlessly dark and oppressive. It also shows him at his most innovative. His scherzos are certainly a lot different from Dvořák's 7th, which isn't repetitive at all, it's a more nimble and constantly unfolding tune.

The first movements of Bruckner symphonies tend to be highlights, and I sometimes get the feeling that he struggled to match the first movement of some pieces with a final movement that is just as engaging. But due to the craftsman he is, his final movements never get boring. They always adhere to the sonata form (albeit in much modified/extended guise) of introducing a theme, a second theme, development and a coda. This adherence to "standard practice" in form, and despite his love of Wagner's music, must be testament to his reverence of those two early Romantics, as well as his almost obsession with academic study and recognition (and music establishments of the time would've tended to be conservative, valuing learning forms which were currently understood, and rather frowing on Wagner's style, who was not anywhere near universally accepted until after Bruckner's death).

His mature symphonies all begin quietly before building to a main theme - his most obvious debt to Beethoven's 9th - and while some people have said that this more or less indicates that he wrote the same symphony multiple times (how many times has that accusation been applied to all manner of great composers?), what he does after that gradual build-up to the main theme varies immensely. The 4th is an almost pedantic (but in a good way :P) step-by-step increasing in thickness and sound to build up to the thundering theme, while the 7th begins in a more direct manner, with a very memorable few notes played by the strings, before organically building to a series of themes that will be played throughout the movement.

One thing which is also a big part of Bruckner's style is the importance of the first movement's coda. While classical era composers sometimes dispensed with the coda in a rather offhand way, Bruckner's codas are equal in brilliance to his main themes. In particular the immense coda of the 8th, or the beautiful and energetic one of the 6th are highlights of the entire genre IMO.

The 9th in its three movement state is emotionally very deceptive, as Bruckner intended the 9th to end with a 4th movement which would re-balance the symphony, which in its first 3 movements could seem extremely dark. In its current state, the adagio ends with a swelling dissonant climax which falters into a whisper, followed by a devastating silence, making the work appear enormously tragic. But his intention must've been to counter this with a far more upbeat introduction to the final movement (as-per his usual format) before moving into his planned grand summary of his work, including a large fugue.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Kullervo on November 13, 2007, 07:22:02 AM
Quote from: GBJGZW on November 12, 2007, 08:39:35 PM
i am not sure i understand what you are asking? please explain why you feel it is 'a hour of movie theme music"

Keep in mind this is the same person that said that Schumann makes him puke. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on November 13, 2007, 08:10:20 AM
Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 07:08:22 AM
I presume the Harnoncourt booklet is less useful?

Actually, in his lecture on the last movement on the second CD Harnoncourt goes through some basic aspects of Brucknerian structure that I found quite helpful and intelligent.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on November 13, 2007, 08:11:35 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on November 13, 2007, 08:10:20 AM
Actually, in his lecture on the last movement on the second CD Harnoncourt goes through some basic aspects of Brucknerian structure that I found quite helpful and intelligent.

Perfect :) I don't own the CD myself, but heard good things about his lecture from M.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on November 13, 2007, 08:41:38 AM
Just a few nits.

Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 07:08:22 AM
This could have influenced Bruckner's overall style, and specifically the more literal repetition of the scherzos (which he also tended to base on folk tunes, which by their nature were simpler and less-developed than classical forms). The adagios sound further more repetitive after the scherzo (which is the movement order in the 8th and 9th - it was reversed in earlier symphonies), but the seemingly repetitive themes are modified and placed in different contexts much more than in the more literal repetition of the scherzos.

I don't know that this is the case. The Adagios all work themselves up into a clear climax, usually right before a coda. The material morphs as it goes along. It is not rote repetition. E.g. the 7th.

Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 07:08:22 AM
The 9th is possibly the worst example of this type of folk-based scherzo theme though, as it is has a unique position in his work - no other movement written by him is so relentlessly dark and oppressive. It also shows him at his most innovative. His scherzos are certainly a lot different from Dvořák's 7th, which isn't repetitive at all, it's a more nimble and constantly unfolding tune.

But that is because "tunes" aren't the point. Building blocks and counterpoint are what Bruckner is after (following Beethovenian and Bachian examples). Even when he unfolds a longer melodic element (such as the opening of the 7th), it is designed to work as a building block for something larger (that aforementioned first movement of the 7th is essentially an extended exercise in inversion by contrary motion).

Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 07:08:22 AM
The first movements of Bruckner symphonies tend to be highlights, and I sometimes get the feeling that he struggled to match the first movement of some pieces with a final movement that is just as engaging. But due to the craftsman he is, his final movements never get boring. They always adhere to the sonata form (albeit in much modified/extended guise) of introducing a theme, a second theme, development and a coda.

Is that the case? In most cases, Bruckner reverts to LvB 9th's model of reintroducing thematic material from the prior movements in the finale. E.g. 5th. Also e.g., the first climax of the finale of the 4th occurs when the main theme of the first movement is reintroduced. It is not really a "standard practice" model he is using in sofar as the LvB 9th that he is using as a model broke so many standards itself.

Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 07:08:22 AM
while the 7th begins in a more direct manner, with a very memorable few notes played by the strings, before organically building to a series of themes that will be played throughout the movement.

The opening theme is played by cellos plus solo horn, not the rest of the strings. But that movement is actually one of his most economical. There is little else beyond variations, fragmentations and inversions of the initial theme from which this movement is constructed.

Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 07:08:22 AM
The 9th in its three movement state is emotionally very deceptive, as Bruckner intended the 9th to end with a 4th movement which would re-balance the symphony, which in its first 3 movements could seem extremely dark. In its current state, the adagio ends with a swelling dissonant climax which falters into a whisper, followed by a devastating silence, making the work appear enormously tragic.

There is actually an extended coda after that climax which ends in a major key (those ascending major notes in the brass mirror the minor key ascending theme of the opening of that movement - from deepest darkness to a glimmer of light). No matter. The climax is still devastating and the sheer beauty of those sustained high notes held out in the Wagner tubas heightens the tragic impression despite the major key ending.

Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 07:08:22 AM
But his intention must've been to counter this with a far more upbeat introduction to the final movement (as-per his usual format) before moving into his planned grand summary of his work, including a large fugue.

According to Harnoncourt's lecture, the idea was to end the symphony with The Mother of All Fugues, which would incorporate central themes from the prior movements, as well as from the 5th, 7th and 8th symphonies and superimpose them on top of each other - sort of an apotheosis of his entire oeuvre. (PS: if you consider that selection together with Bruckner's dedication of this symphony to the "dear Lord", it gives you an idea of what he himself considered to be his best works.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on November 13, 2007, 08:52:29 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on November 13, 2007, 08:41:38 AM
Just a few nits.

Thanks for them - I'm constantly learning :)

Quote from: O Mensch on November 13, 2007, 08:41:38 AM
Is that the case? In most cases, Bruckner reverts to LvB 9th's model of reintroducing thematic material from the prior movements in the finale. E.g. 5th. Also e.g., the first climax of the finale of the 4th occurs when the main theme of the first movement is reintroduced. It is not really a "standard practice" model he is using in sofar as the LvB 9th that he is using as a model broke so many standards itself.

I phrased that one terribly - I was referring to the opening movements being in (reasonably) standard sonata form rather than the finales, and didn't notice it being out of place when proof-reading.

Quote from: O Mensch on November 13, 2007, 08:41:38 AM
The opening theme is played by cellos plus solo horn, not the rest of the strings. But that movement is actually one of his most economical. There is little else beyond variations, fragmentations and inversions of the initial theme from which this movement is constructed.

Indeed, I find that movement to be quite different from his usual style, it's often delicate and almost ghostly - I can often listen to it at times when other Bruckner works could exaust me.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 13, 2007, 02:05:58 PM
I posted this under a different topic, and just in case people do not check every little thing, here it is:

Decades ago I spent hard-earned money on The Bruckner Society of America, mainly for its marvelous journal Chord and Discord which was edited by the famous music critic and scholar Jack Diether.

The society also pushed Mahler in the 40's and 50's when few people knew about Mahler.

The journal contained great stuff, like this essay by Bruno Walter on the connections, and disconnections, between Bruckner and Mahler.

See:

http://www.uv.es/~calaforr/walter.html

An excerpt by Walter on what he learned about Bruckner from those who knew the man:

Bruckner was a retiring, awkward, childishly naive being, whose almost primitive ingenuousness and simplicity was mixed with a generous portion of rustic cunning. He spoke the unrefined Upper-Austrian dialect of the provincial and remained the countryman in appearance, clothing, speech, and carriage till the end, even though he lived in Vienna, a world-metropolis, for decades. His conversation never betrayed reading, whether literature or poetry, nor any interest in scientific matters. The broad domains of the intellectual did not attract him. Unless music was the topic he turned his conversation to the narrow vicissitudes and happenings of everyday existence. Nevertheless his personality must have been attractive, for almost all reports agree upon the peculiar fascination exerted by his naivete, piety, homely simplicity, and modesty, bordering at times on servility, as borne out by many of his letters. I explain this attractive power of his strange personality to myself as due to the radiance of his lofty, godly soul, the splendor of his musical genius glimmering through his unpretending homeliness. If his presence could hardly be felt as "interesting", it was heartwarming, yes, uplifting.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on November 14, 2007, 12:56:32 AM
Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 08:11:35 AM
Perfect :) I don't own the CD myself, but heard good things about his lecture from M.

I can also recommend it. Harnoncourt's lecture, albeit somewhat "clunky" in the English version, where he's obviously reading a pre-translated text, has enlightened me to quite an extent; and not not only about the finale of Bruckner's 9th, but also the rest of the symphony, and what Bruckner did with (or in) it. :)

Also a very interesting excerpt, Cato, and a link I, at least, will certainly investigate later. Thank you!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 14, 2007, 03:35:50 AM
Quote from: Renfield on November 14, 2007, 12:56:32 AM

Also a very interesting excerpt, Cato, and a link I, at least, will certainly investigate later. Thank you!

You're very welcome!

A Google search seems to indicate that the society is defunct: there are many private webpages honoring Bruckner, and of course the Internationale Bruckner Gesellschaft.

Interesting: I did come across a "Nevada Bruckner Society" !   8)

Their webpage contains this marvelous sentence:

"Like Nevada, Bruckner was a (divine) gift for all of mankind."     :o

Well, who needs the spiritual uplift of a Bruckner symphony more than the denizens of Sin City?   0:)

See:

http://www.geocities.com/bruckner_Wagner/
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on November 14, 2007, 06:54:07 AM
actually, you can listen to the Harnoncourt lecture(as well as the 9th) for free. If you sign up for Rhapsody(rhapsody.com (http://rhapsody.com)). You get 24 free listens, you can listen to 24 tracks for the full duration.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mahlertitan on November 27, 2007, 09:11:19 PM
http://stage6.divx.com/user/kutapika/video/1821077/Bruckner---Symphony-No-4-1st(extract)-&-4th-mov-
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 01, 2007, 06:34:48 AM
John Berky is posting this in his Downloads section :

Symphony No. 5
Shunsaki Tsutsumi
Shunyukai Symphony Orchestra
January 19, 1997
From Shunyukai CD SYK-009
75'20"
Fourth movement includes music from the first concept as edited by William Carragan.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on December 06, 2007, 07:59:58 AM
I would be curious to know if anyone here has any recommendations on a good collection of Bruckner's organ works. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on December 06, 2007, 08:34:44 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on December 06, 2007, 07:59:58 AM
I would be curious to know if anyone here has any recommendations on a good collection of Bruckner's organ works. Thanks in advance.

If I recall correctly, so little were written down that a "complete" set could fill one CD, with space for the usual adagio transcription which all of them see fit to include. The adagio is always the highlight. The only one I am familiar with is this one, which I would not spend money on, but was worth borrowing out of interest:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41FDE4E5HSL._AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Organ-Works-Anton/dp/B000001MQ0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1196962333&sr=1-1)

The playing is fine, but the works sound undemanding anyway, so I'm not sure that a bad recording could be found...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 07, 2007, 04:38:44 AM
Brucknerians, rejoice!

Rolf von Otter is offering the van Otterloo 7th on his site
http://homepages.ipact.nl/~otterhouse/

van Otterloo was a fiery conductor as feared by the players as Rodzinski and Szell were. And he was much the same kind of musician. This is from a long OOP lp:
23-26/10/54   Epic LP SC 6006    64:00    18:07    24:46    9:42    11:05
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on December 07, 2007, 08:00:51 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 07, 2007, 04:38:44 AM
Brucknerians, rejoice!

Rolf von Otter is offering the van Otterloo 7th on his site
http://homepages.ipact.nl/~otterhouse/

van Otterloo was a fiery conductor as feared by the players as Rodzinski and Szell were. And he was much the same kind of musician. This is from a long OOP lp:
23-26/10/54   Epic LP SC 6006    64:00    18:07    24:46    9:42    11:05

There's another Otterloo 7th on Operashare too, if interested:

1. Bartok. violin concerto nr. 2.
Radio Filharmonisch Orkest o.l.v. Willem van Otterlo.
Henryk Szering, violin.
25-6-1962 Concertgebouw Amsterdam.
2. Bruckner. Symphony nr. 7 in E. Radio Filharmonisch Orkest o.l.v.
Willem van Otterloo. 2-4-1958.

http://rapidshare.com/files/72836811/otterloo-live2a.zip
http://rapidshare.com/files/72836924/otterloo-live2b.zip
http://rapidshare.com/files/72836885/otterloo-live2c.zip
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 07, 2007, 03:20:30 PM
Quote from: Lethe on December 07, 2007, 08:00:51 AM
There's another Otterloo 7th on Operashare too, if interested:

1. Bartok. violin concerto nr. 2.
Radio Filharmonisch Orkest o.l.v. Willem van Otterlo.
Henryk Szering, violin.
25-6-1962 Concertgebouw Amsterdam.
2. Bruckner. Symphony nr. 7 in E. Radio Filharmonisch Orkest o.l.v.
Willem van Otterloo. 2-4-1958.

http://rapidshare.com/files/72836811/otterloo-live2a.zip
http://rapidshare.com/files/72836924/otterloo-live2b.zip
http://rapidshare.com/files/72836885/otterloo-live2c.zip

Thanks for that, Lethe! This is the performance Rolf talks about on his web site. I see it's been recorded in Amsterdam's Concertgebouw (with the Netherlands Radio Philharmonic), so the sound should be ok. Yummy!  :D

And that bartok should be a good listen too: Szeryng's version with Haitink has long been a favourite, but with van Otterloo at the helm, there must be as much grit as there was to be refinement in the later version.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on December 18, 2007, 04:10:25 PM
Here is a nice live recording of Bruckner's 5th symphony with the Münchner Philharmoniker conducted by Sergiu Celibidache from the inaugural concert of the Philharmonie am Gasteig on November 10, 1985.

I think this live recording, although the sound has some limitations, reflects much better than many of the recordings published by EMI what the MP under Celibidache really sounded like. Many of these were obviously recorded with a lot of spot mics, probably in an attempt to cope with the halls problematic acoustics, but resulting in breaking up the very round and blended sound Celibidache achieved. He rarely ever allowed the brass to play "brassy" and stick out of the textures.

This recording gives you a much better idea of what that sounded like.

1st movement
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yskwuu

2nd movement
http://preview.tinyurl.com/22yhqt

3rd movement
http://preview.tinyurl.com/24n2ew

4th movement, part 1
http://preview.tinyurl.com/296n4y

4th movement, part 2
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yrk8ky

Parts 1 and 2 of the 4th movement have to be joined with HJSplit! (http://www.freebyte.com/hjsplit/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 18, 2007, 07:15:21 PM
I'm glad to hear it's faithful to the orchestra's sound. I've had it for a couple of years and it's definitely one of the most interesting, imposing and intense versions I've heard (another way of saying it's one of the best, ever ;)). And yes, the orchestra sounds splendid here. Another Celi bruckner recording I immensely enjoy is the 8th from Lisbon. I wonder if that is faithful to the orchestra/conductor sound as well?  Coincidentally, these non-EMI recordings are the only two Celi Bruckner discs I enjoy without reservations. But honestly I can't tell if it's a question of sound.

This week I listened to two recordings of the 7th under Willem van Otterloo. Both are frome the mid-late fifties, in mono. First, the Netherlands Radio Philharmonic recordedn in 1957 in Amsterdam's Concertgebouw (for the unawares, Concertgebouw simplay means Concert Hall, so it's not only the Amsterdam Concertgebouw that plays there, but other ensembles as well). There's no denying that this orchestra is good, but not on the level of its big brother. Nevertheless, a masterly conductor is clearly at the helm. This flowing, organically conceived and energetic interpretations is very much like Gielen's recording, except that the Adagio here is very slow, extremely solemn (as per the score's marking), and utterly compelling (no cymbal crash). The only fault I could find was the stubborn refusal for even the slightest rhetorical broadening. This can pass in I, but at the symphony's end an emphatic close is always welcome, esp. as it helps differentiate the various strands of the orchestra - one of the rare occasions where Bruckner's scoring is induces confusion.

Then there is the 1955 Vienna Symphony studio version (from the Musikverein?). This is the one I shall return to, as it has all the qualities of the 1957 concert, plus bettter sound, slightly but audibly better playing and no drawback whatsoever (except for the same unbending rush to the finish). I really like this kind of Bruckner 7th.

In the same mould are the Minneapolis Ormandy, Haitink Amsterdam I (1960) and Gielen. In the same vein but not as good are the Toscanini and VPO Boulez. The polar opposite (just as interesting) is represented by the great trio of DGG Vienna versions (Giulini, Karajan and Böhm), as well as the glorious Blomstedt Dresden and Berlin RSO Chailly.  Those are fervent, radiant, lovingly moulded but very disciplined and just as organically conceived as the others. Somewhere in between are the various Jochums - alternately volatile and ecstatic in feeling. There are many other good versions, but those I've mentioned are all superb. I'm very happy to have the van Otterloos in my collection. He was a fantastic conductor.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on December 18, 2007, 08:19:42 PM
Quote from: M forever on December 18, 2007, 04:10:25 PM
Here is a nice live recording of Bruckner's 5th symphony with the Münchner Philharmoniker conducted by Sergiu Celibidache from the inaugural concert of the Philharmonie am Gasteig on November 10, 1985.

I think this live recording, although the sound has some limitations, reflects much better than many of the recordings published by EMI what the MP under Celibidache really sounded like. Many of these were obviously recorded with a lot of spot mics, probably in an attempt to cope with the halls problematic acoustics, but resulting in breaking up the very round and blended sound Celibidache achieved. He rarely ever allowed the brass to play "brassy" and stick out of the textures.

This recording gives you a much better idea of what that sounded like.

1st movement
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yskwuu

2nd movement
http://preview.tinyurl.com/22yhqt

3rd movement
http://preview.tinyurl.com/24n2ew

4th movement, part 1
http://preview.tinyurl.com/296n4y

4th movement, part 2
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yrk8ky

Parts 1 and 2 of the 4th movement have to be joined with HJSplit! (http://www.freebyte.com/hjsplit/)

The exact same thing applies for his 9th with the Stuttgart Radio Symphony. In the first movement where the brass plays octave jumps, a chromatic scale and then a lower octave jump, most recordings have the trombones/trumpets really brassy and edgy, sticking out completely. But in Celi's version, the warmth of the strings is more prevalent than the power of all the brass combined.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jwinter on December 19, 2007, 06:02:40 AM
Thanks for posting that performance, M.  :)

I've recently started working my way through Barenboim's Berlin set.  Anyone have thoughts on that one?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: George on December 19, 2007, 06:13:10 AM
Quote from: jwinter on December 19, 2007, 06:02:40 AM
Thanks for posting that performance, M.  :)

I've recently started working my way through Barenboim's Berlin set.  Anyone have thoughts on that one?

I'd love to hear your thoughts as well, when you are ready J, as I sure love Barenboim's Beethoven symphonies. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jwinter on December 19, 2007, 06:24:45 AM
Quote from: George on December 19, 2007, 06:13:10 AM
I'd love to hear your thoughts as well, when you are ready J, as I sure love Barenboim's Beethoven symphonies. 

Sure.  I agree that his Beethoven is top-notch, as is his Mozart (I have the late symphonies with the English Chamber Orchestra and the late concerti with the BPO, both very, very good) and the recent Mahler 7.  Looking forward to hearing these...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 30, 2007, 07:35:23 AM
Quote from: M forever on December 18, 2007, 04:10:25 PM
Here is a nice live recording of Bruckner's 5th symphony with the Münchner Philharmoniker conducted by Sergiu Celibidache from the inaugural concert of the Philharmonie am Gasteig on November 10, 1985.

And here is the Scherzo from a concert given at the Suntory Hall, Toyko, 22 Oct 86, on the Altus label.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/Bruck5Celi.jpg)

Ripped and posted so that a sound quality comparison can be made:

http://rapidshare.de/files/38164406/bruckner5-scherzo.mp3.html

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 30, 2007, 12:12:29 PM
Listened to this week: a 2007 Berlin Classics release of 1990 performances: the E minor mass (that's no. 2) and the Te Deum. Heinz Rögner conducts the RSO, Berlin.  This is my first ever Mass no. 2 . For some reason I had managed to miss it on numerous occasions, but here it is, and a splendid interpretation is obviously encased here. Beautiful singing from the choir and transparent recording. The harmonie doesn't attempt to upstage the singers. They support them throughout in a most euphonious way. Brass in particular have a stained glass mellowness to them.

The Te Deum is probably Bruckner's most famous choral work. This performance is fervent and powerful, but also very attentive to the more reflective portions of the score. There is a real sense of the church here, as opposed to the concert platform. Soloists blend very well (a very difficult balance to achieve in the In Te domine speravi section). Rögner doesn't let the timpani rage as they did across Berlin in the thrilling 1975 Karajan recording ( I didn't hear the Vienna ones).

This is an excellent coupling, offering two of Bruckner's most important works in excellent sound and performances, at budget price.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 01, 2008, 04:18:38 PM
John Berky's website offers monthly Bruckner downloads. For January (http://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/january/) he has a rare offering: the 1982 Tintner performance of the 8th symphony (original version). The downloads includes a half hour lecture by Tintner to the orchestra.

This predates his commercial Naxos disc by some 15 years, and as can be expected, tempi are swifter: 5 minutes shorter, all in movements I, II and IV. Which is not a bad thing as already in 1982 they were on the broad side. By 1997 he had adopted a positively ruminative approach. It paid some dividends, but there's no denying that much was asked of the listener.



Happy free listening!  :D

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Maciek on January 03, 2008, 10:24:59 AM
André, I was wondering if you've listened to the Wislocki 4th yet? I'd be very curious to hear your thoughts.

(And happy new year! 8))
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 03, 2008, 08:14:49 PM
And Happy New Year to you too!  :D

I did listen to the Wislocki 4th a few months ago - but truth to telll, I didn't find it better than average. Please don't ask me for more: that was a one shot deal, so I'd have to give it more airing time. I do recall finding the strings to be somewhat meager-sounding, but it could be just a matter of control setting (Bruckner willl not settle for anything less than full blast ;D).  I'll eventually get back to it in due time.

Speaking of Polish conductors, I've found Skowaczewski's readings more reliable and interesting than those of the other super budget versions by Tintner. Strange as it may seem, I still hold Skrowaczewski as the best interpreter of the Chopin PC 1. This has been dismissed as unoriginal and unchallenging stuff, but after hearing dozens of versions, it still holds the prize for best ever - and that's not even counting Rubinstein's peerless solo work 0:).

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on January 03, 2008, 08:23:14 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on January 03, 2008, 08:14:49 PM
And Happy New Year to you too!  :D

I did listen to the Wislocki 4th a few months ago - but truth to telll, I didn't find it better than average. Please don't ask me for more: that was a one shot deal, so I'd have to give it more airing time. I do recall finding the strings to be somewhat meager-sounding, but it could be just a matter of control setting (Bruckner willl not settle for anything less than full blast ;D).  I'll eventually get back to it in due time.

Speaking of Polish conductors, I've found Skowaczewski's readings more reliable and interesting than those of the other super budget versions by Tintner. Strange as it may seem, I still hold Skrowaczewski as the best interpreter of the Chopin PC 1. This has been dismissed as unoriginal and unchallenging stuff, but after hearing dozens of versions, it still holds the prize for best ever - and that's not even counting Rubinstein's peerless solo work 0:).



what do you think about Kempe's 4th with MP (the 1972 one) and Barenboim's 4th with CSO?
(not that i am recommending these two recordings, i just wand your honest opinion, if you have heard of them)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 03, 2008, 08:29:34 PM
Quote from: Gustav on January 03, 2008, 08:23:14 PM
what do you think about Kempe's 4th with MP (the 1972 one) and Barenboim's 4th with CSO?
(not that i am recommending these two recordings, i just wand your honest opinion, if you have heard of them)


I didn't hear the Kempe. But the CSO Barenboim has been a sentimental favourite for decades. The reason I still hold it dear to my heart is the unending bliss I experience from the CSO's brass in this particular recording (I've heard them all, and only the 9th is of interest to me). This is one instance where Barenboim just let things unfold and let the orchestra speak its own idiom.

Regarding Kempe's Bruckner (4, 5 and 8), my good friend and Bruckner guru Choochoo highly recommends them. Someday I'll get them for sure, they've been on my wish list for quite a while now.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sydney Grew on January 03, 2008, 09:44:57 PM
Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 07:08:22 AM
If your library has it available, I would recommend the "Essence of Bruckner" book by Robert Simpson. It is considered definitive enough to probably be available from any library in any English-speaking country (although I am unsure whether in a country as large as the US or Canada, they can get books from other libraries for you like in the UK). Some CD booklet notes are very useful. The Solti/Decca cycle, for example, while not being particularly recommendable on musical terms (I bought it cheaply, fully aware of this) has a good overview of his style and use of architecture in his works - I presume the Harnoncourt booklet is less useful?
. . . .
The 9th in its three movement state is emotionally very deceptive, as Bruckner intended the 9th to end with a 4th movement which would re-balance the symphony, which in its first 3 movements could seem extremely dark. In its current state, the adagio ends with a swelling dissonant climax which falters into a whisper, followed by a devastating silence, making the work appear enormously tragic. But his intention must've been to counter this with a far more upbeat introduction to the final movement (as-per his usual format) before moving into his planned grand summary of his work, including a large fugue.

We thank the Member for all the valuable information in his message. We are particularly struck by his reference to the projected finale to the Ninth Symphony. According to Cooke and Nowak in Grove, there exist "some two hundred pages of sketches" for this movement, upon which the composer was working up to and including the day of his death on the eleventh of October 1896.

What we would now like to ask is, has any one seen these sketches - in either the published or unpublished forms? The sketch material bears the WAB [Werkverzeichnis Anton Bruckners] number 143, and volume nine of the Sämtliche Werke (edited by Orel in 1934) is said to reproduce at least some part thereof. But in what form, and where is the original material kept? We (who admire Bruckner's music greatly) are in fact suddenly tempted to have a go at writing a suitably grand fugal finale ourselves - merely for our own amusement of course, at least initially.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on January 03, 2008, 10:26:53 PM
Quote from: Sydney Grew on January 03, 2008, 09:44:57 PM
We thank the Member for all the valuable information in his message. We are particularly struck by his reference to the projected finale to the Ninth Symphony. According to Cooke and Nowak in Grove, there exist "some two hundred pages of sketches" for this movement, upon which the composer was working up to and including the day of his death on the eleventh of October 1896.

What we would now like to ask is, has any one seen these sketches - in either the published or unpublished forms? The sketch material bears the WAB [Werkverzeichnis Anton Bruckners] number 143, and volume nine of the Sämtliche Werke (edited by Orel in 1934) is said to reproduce at least some part thereof. But in what form, and where is the original material kept? We (who admire Bruckner's music greatly) are in fact suddenly tempted to have a go at writing a suitably grand fugal finale ourselves - merely for our own amusement of course, at least initially.


yes, in fact many scholars have seen it (in its unfinished form) and tried to complete it. Here is the wiki entry on the topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._9_%28Bruckner%29

and I also believe someone has also wrote "a suitably grand fugal finale" for his "own amusement of course" already. His name is Peter Jan Marthe.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Maciek on January 04, 2008, 01:25:02 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on January 03, 2008, 08:14:49 PM
I did listen to the Wislocki 4th a few months ago - but truth to telll, I didn't find it better than average. Please don't ask me for more: that was a one shot deal, so I'd have to give it more airing time. I do recall finding the strings to be somewhat meager-sounding, but it could be just a matter of control setting (Bruckner willl not settle for anything less than full blast ;D).  I'll eventually get back to it in due time.

Hey, no problem. I have no special affinity towards Wislocki, never counted him among the best Polish conductors. Just wanted to hear an informed opinion. This recording was released in the Polish Radio series "Famous Polish Conductors" (along with Haydn's Sanctae Caeciliae Mass and Beethoven's Egmont) and the inclusion of the Bruckner surprised me a bit - I guess the reason they did include it is that it is one of the very few Polish Bruckner recordings in existence. Apart from Skrowaczewski (and Wislocki), I don't think any Polish conductor ever recorded any Bruckner (perhaps also Wit nowadays? I'm not sure). I remember that at the end of his life Czyz regretted never having tackled Bruckner (that and not having done enough jazz music ;D)...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jwinter on January 04, 2008, 05:53:42 AM
Quote from: Sydney Grew on January 03, 2008, 09:44:57 PM
What we would now like to ask is, has any one seen these sketches - in either the published or unpublished forms?


If you're curious, here's a fairly cheap way to check out the projected finale:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XKPXYTPNL._AA240_.jpg)

It's fleshed out from Bruckner's sketches, obviously, but from what I can tell from the liner notes there was a considerable amount of material to work from, and they seem to have taken great care with it.  The finale is the only reason I'd draw this CD to your attention, though -- overall this is a decent but not great 9th; it's a bit slow (which isn't necessarily a problem) but it also lacks drive and excitement IMO.  It all just feels a bit slack.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 04, 2008, 07:29:14 AM
Quote from: jwinter on January 04, 2008, 05:53:42 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XKPXYTPNL._AA240_.jpg)

It's fleshed out from Bruckner's sketches, obviously, but from what I can tell from the liner notes there was a considerable amount of material to work from, and they seem to have taken great care with it.

Despite the advocacy of people like Harnoncourt, and after reading a whole book devoted to the unfinished Finale (Heinz-Klaus Metzger, Rainer Riehn: Bruckners Neunte im Fegefeuer der Rezeption, 2003, text + kritk, München), I still miss Bruckner's spirit in the performing versions that are now available. The music doesn't take flight. You hear all the well-known Brucknerian noises, but they don't have that 'lift'.

(And I am convinced by Mahler's Tenth, by the way.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 04, 2008, 08:09:33 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 04, 2008, 07:29:14 AM
Despite the advocacy of people like Harnoncourt, and after reading a whole book devoted to the unfinished Finale (Heinz-Klaus Metzger, Rainer Riehn: Bruckners Neunte im Fegefeuer der Rezeption, 2003, text + kritk, München), I still miss Bruckner's spirit in the performing versions that are now available. The music doesn't take flight. You hear all the well-known Brucknerian noises, but they don't have that 'lift'.

Query, though, how much of that is due to conductors' and orchestras' unfamiliarity with the final movement. E.g. in the Harnoncourt recording, the VPO's playing of the first three movements is leagues better than their tentative baby steps in the excerpts of the finale. The Wildner has the most recent completion and is to my ears the most compelling realization of the finale. As more original excerpts are discovered and as the completion is further fine tuned and as more orchestras and conductors become familiar with the work, hopefully we will get to hear more convincing performances as well.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 04, 2008, 08:28:01 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on January 04, 2008, 08:09:33 AM
Query, though, how much of that is due to conductors' and orchestras' unfamiliarity with the final movement. E.g. in the Harnoncourt recording, the VPO's playing of the first three movements is leagues better than their tentative baby steps in the excerpts of the finale. The Wildner has the most recent completion and is to my ears the most compelling realization of the finale. As more original excerpts are discovered and as the completion is further fine tuned and as more orchestras and conductors become familiar with the work, hopefully we will get to hear more convincing performances as well.

I know exactly what you mean. You sometimes have to listen through a performance to get a sense of the real power of the music. But for me that's not the case here, I'm afraid - I think the musical ideas in the Finale aren't, for whatever reason, among Bruckner's most inspired. I wanted to like the Finale so badly, I love Bruckner. But I feel I'm only getting a glimpse of what could have been. Even with a weak Bruckner performance, you feel that there is more than orchestra and conductor can give you. Not so here. I don't think even the best Bruckner conductor could make the Finale an overwhelming experience. (Whereas Mahler's Tenth never fails to move me.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 04, 2008, 09:04:40 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 04, 2008, 08:28:01 AM
I know exactly what you mean. You sometimes have to listen through a performance to get a sense of the real power of the music. But for me that's not the case here, I'm afraid - I think the musical ideas in the Finale aren't, for whatever reason, among Bruckner's most inspired. I wanted to like the Finale so badly, I love Bruckner. But I feel I'm only getting a glimpse of what could have been. Even with a weak Bruckner performance, you feel that there is more than orchestra and conductor can give you. Not so here. I don't think even the best Bruckner conductor could make the Finale an overwhelming experience. (Whereas Mahler's Tenth never fails to move me.)

I don't know about that. Have you actually heard the Wildner? The Harnoncourt certainly feels like an aimless sightreading exercise. The Wildner is considerably better. (Talmi can be binned since the completion miscorrects some of Bruckner's original writing.) I do like at least the original parts of the piece. The beginning of the finale, in particular, I think is marvellous. I had often wondered what Bruckner could possibly say next after that sublime Adagio has melted away into the ether. But the way he starts the finale out of that same nothingness into which the Adagio disappeared is brilliant, IMHO.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 04, 2008, 09:16:38 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on January 04, 2008, 09:04:40 AM
I don't know about that. Have you actually heard the Wildner? The Harnoncourt certainly feels like an aimless sightreading exercise. The Wildner is considerably better. (Talmi can be binned since the completion miscorrects some of Bruckner's original writing.) I do like at least the original parts of the piece. The beginning of the finale, in particular, I think is marvellous. I had often wondered what Bruckner could possibly say next after that sublime Adagio has melted away into the ether. But the way he starts the finale out of that same nothingness into which the Adagio disappeared is brilliant, IMHO.

I have the Wildner and the Harnoncourt...

I promise you to give the Wildner another spin tomorrow. And then I'll report back.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on January 04, 2008, 09:46:15 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on January 04, 2008, 08:09:33 AM
Query, though, how much of that is due to conductors' and orchestras' unfamiliarity with the final movement. E.g. in the Harnoncourt recording, the VPO's playing of the first three movements is leagues better than their tentative baby steps in the excerpts of the finale. The Wildner has the most recent completion and is to my ears the most compelling realization of the finale. As more original excerpts are discovered and as the completion is further fine tuned and as more orchestras and conductors become familiar with the work, hopefully we will get to hear more convincing performances as well.

Actually, the recordings that used the most recent completion are Marcus Bosch's 9th with Aachen and Daniel Harding with Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 04, 2008, 09:50:56 AM
Quote from: Gustav on January 04, 2008, 09:46:15 AM
Actually, the recordings that used the most recent completion are Marcus Bosch's 9th with Aachen and Daniel Harding with Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra.

Didn't know those existed! Where might one find these? My mom played as a sub in the first violins in the Bosch/Aachen performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on January 04, 2008, 09:57:32 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on January 04, 2008, 09:50:56 AM
Didn't know those existed! Where might one find these? My mom played as a sub in the first violins in the Bosch/Aachen performance.

It's quite easy to find Bosch's performance, you can buy it from jpc. If you are in america, it hasn't been released yet, but it will be soon. Just a few weeks ago, Berky offered one on his website, but now it's gone.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 04, 2008, 10:00:07 AM
Quote from: Gustav on January 04, 2008, 09:57:32 AM
It's quite easy to find Bosch's performance, you can buy it from jpc. If you are in america, it hasn't been released yet, but it will be soon. Just a few weeks ago, Berky offered one on his website, but now it's gone.

Thanks. Found it. Have you heard either one of the two? How does Bosch compare to Harding?

EDIT: just listened to the clips on jpc. Bosch's Scherzo and Finale sound good, but why such a rushed Adagio?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on January 04, 2008, 10:18:37 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on January 04, 2008, 10:00:07 AM
Thanks. Found it. Have you heard either one of the two? How does Bosch compare to Harding?

I don't know, I have heard both of them. But the one i heard from Harding came from an Radio Broadcast, so I am not sure it's the same as the one released on CD, but just in case you want to hear that performance too, it's on Youtube.
http://youtube.com/results?search_query=bruckner+harding&search=Search

The sound in Bosch is sometimes a little too reverberant for me, I don't know where they record it (in a church maybe?). The sound quality is not bad, but it's not ideal either. Sometimes, the violins are not as transparent as they should be, but the first 3 movements are still very good overall. As for the finale, (the sole reason to acquire this disc), since it has absolute monopoly, being the ONLY WIDELY released recording of this version (good luck on finding the harding one!). It is very nice, first of all, it is done swiftly at only 20 minutes, which is even 3 minutes faster than Wildner's and a whole 10 minutes shorter than the Eichhorn one! Secondly, having never heard anything from this orchestra, i was quite surprised at their level of playing, it's quite good, and very nice brass.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on January 04, 2008, 10:19:19 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on January 04, 2008, 09:50:56 AM
Didn't know those existed! Where might one find these?

Harding was available for streaming from Swedish radio, it's bound to pop up on operashare and Berky has to have it, try e-mailing him.

From few people heard that it was really excellent performance, here is concert review by editor of Bruckner Journal

http://www.brucknerfreunde.at/forum/konzertkritiken/2831-daniel-harding-macht-eine-4-satz-bruckner-ix-stockholm.html#post8066 (http://www.brucknerfreunde.at/forum/konzertkritiken/2831-daniel-harding-macht-eine-4-satz-bruckner-ix-stockholm.html#post8066)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 04, 2008, 12:06:27 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on January 04, 2008, 08:09:33 AM
Query, though, how much of that is due to conductors' and orchestras' unfamiliarity with the final movement. E.g. in the Harnoncourt recording, the VPO's playing of the first three movements is leagues better than their tentative baby steps in the excerpts of the finale.

Nonsense. The playing is very assured, technical on a high level and stylistically spot on and balances and phrasing are obviously meticulously rehearsed. Once again, you mistake your emotional reaction to the music - which indeed leaves the listener "hanging" quite a bit since it is, well, fragments, not a complete and coherent musical structure - with the actual playing of it.

Quote from: Jezetha on January 04, 2008, 08:28:01 AM
I think the musical ideas in the Finale aren't, for whatever reason, among Bruckner's most inspired.

Allow me to completely disagree. I think many ideas in the finale fragments are simply breathtakingly original, innovative and singular - I couldn't believe my ears when I first heard the fragments. This may not be Bruckner at his most "inspiring", "solemn" and "hymnic", but it is Bruckner at his most innovative and daring, way beyond even what he dared in the preceding movements - but a logical step, or maybe even several, further ahead from what he did there. "Like a stone from the moon", as Harnoncourt so aptly puts it in the workshop concert. A lot of it sounds very "modern". However, my feeling is that even though Bruckner apparently completed this first version of the finale in its outlines before some of the pages were lost, it was still quite far from actual final completion at that point. If you look at the original, intermediate and final versions of the slow movement of the 8th symphony, for instance, you can see how drastically Bruckner changed that movement with each revision. My impression is that while the first three movements of the 9th are really more or less finished the way they are, Bruckner, in his "race against death", rushed to somehow complete the finale, he put all his ideas in there and outlined the general structure, but never got around to actually work them out quite as much as this daring material would have needed it to really unfold its great potential. How he would have done that had he lived maybe a year longer, we will never know. He was so "out there", in a realm and on a level of musical invention there so far ahead of and removed from what normal musical minds can grasp, I don't see any way how this material can be reconstructed and "finished" by anyone else in a way which can approach what he might have worked out. So, I think presenting the surviving finale fragments in a workshop concert is as far as one should go - it is very tempting though to analyze his ideas and, based on how he elaborated on his ideas in the earlier symphonies, "wildly guess" what could have been there in the end. But we will never know.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 04, 2008, 12:24:46 PM
Quote from: Gustav on January 04, 2008, 10:18:37 AM
The sound in Bosch is sometimes a little too reverberant for me, I don't know where they record it (in a church maybe?).

If it is indeed the performance I am thinking of, then it was indeed performed in a church, the Aachen cathedral, IIRC.

Quote from: M forever on January 04, 2008, 12:06:27 PM
Nonsense. The playing is very assured, technical on a high level and stylistically spot on and balances and phrasing are obviously meticulously rehearsed. Once again, you mistake your emotional reaction to the music - which indeed leaves the listener "hanging" quite a bit since it is, well, fragments, not a complete and coherent musical structure - with the actual playing of it.

M, once again it is you who is being emotional - as always when you perceive, however unreasonably, that someone criticized the VPO unfairly - and who preemptively throws an accusation of emotionalism about, and who choses to misread plain English just for the purpose of playing the righteously "offended liver sausage". Yes, they play "assurred, technically on a high level and stylistically spot on" and it is indeed a performance of "fragments", but that doesn't change the fact that the playing in the first three movements is of a different caliber. The first three sound like a comfortable, worn in piece of clothing. The performers know where they are going and know what risks they can afford to take. They are thoroughly at home at every turn. That is simply not the case in the playing in the finale excerpts. The dynamic range is more limited and the playing is much more on the "safe" side. The phrasing is comparatively stiff. The first three movements are standard repertoire and the fourth is uncharted territory and it shows. You might argue that this is due to the fact that they are just playing excerpts for illustration purposes. But there are some quite sizeable stretches of music that could have been played with more conviction, more interpretive cohesion and generally more assured ensemble work. It's still the VPO, no question, and it's excellent. Just not as good as it could have been. Wildner's Neue Westfälische Philharmonie is no VPO and doesn't have the VPO brass section's glow, but they play on that recording with more assurance in the last movement. Certainly it makes a difference that this was a complete performance and the Harnoncourt/VPO isn't - thereby allowing Wildner to mould a longer line. But for purposes of illustrating what the finale could sound like, I think Wildner makes the better case. And that is what we are discussing here. Not whether or not the VPO is infallible. I wasn't criticizing the playing of the VPO as such. But that obviously escaped you.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sydney Grew on January 04, 2008, 02:35:09 PM
Quote from: jwinter on January 04, 2008, 05:53:42 AM
If you're curious, here's a fairly cheap way to check out the projected finale:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XKPXYTPNL._AA240_.jpg)

It's fleshed out from Bruckner's sketches, obviously, but from what I can tell from the liner notes there was a considerable amount of material to work from, and they seem to have taken great care with it.  The finale is the only reason I'd draw this CD to your attention, though -- overall this is a decent but not great 9th; it's a bit slow (which isn't necessarily a problem) but it also lacks drive and excitement IMO.  It all just feels a bit slack.

Thank you so much for directing our attention to this recording; we shall eagerly seek it out. Thanks too to all those Members who have contributed nuggets of further information; how inspiring it all is! Because Bruckner was a sort of musical saint almost was he not - a man whose whole life was devoted to the musical expression of profound spiritual insights.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 04, 2008, 05:01:17 PM
I have heard a few of those completions (or attempts at), and only one gave me the impression of a cohesive, organically conceived movement: it's the Eichhorn version. This is basically the same as the Bosch or Harding (they use the most recent revision of the Samale//Philips/Mazzuca/Cohrs realization). It could be that this is the latest I have heard, so increased familiarity may be a factor. But I distinctly remember how much more of a piece, more 'fleshed out' it sounded compared to Talmi, Wildner and Naïto. I find the Harding quite formidable too (thanks for alerting us to these youtube vids, Gustav!). There's no doubt in my mind that SPMC is a better solution than Carragan's recomposition.

There are familiar quotes, semi-quotes and near-quotes in this movement, the most striking instance being the main theme of the 3rd symphony that pops up in the coda. I agree that the whole thing has an air of haste and expediency. The eternal self doubter in Bruckner would have wanted to rework this movement for years. It is indeed strikingly modern sounding, but I wonder how much of that impression is borne of the almost disjointed assemblage of rather angular thematic material. Could this be a voluntary move by Bruckner ? The first movement's effusive, beseeching gesangsperioden are a thing of the past when the adagio starts. That movement's own slow and lyrical portions are anguished aftermaths of the explosive outbursts that dot this lunar musical landscape. From that quasi disintegration to the bold, gaunt and seemingly inconclusive finale, there seems to be some kind of progression toward a more abstract musical language. But that could also be an effect of the intervening years: musical advances could have mingled with declining mental powers and advancing illness. By the time he died in October 1896 Bruckner had suffered debilitating bouts of pneumonia and pleurisy.

As has been said by M we will never know. There is a very interesting (and lengthy) essay on the finale here (http://www.abruckner.com/Data/documents/bruckner_symphony_9_finale_vdw.pdf). After having read it I am still not convinced. A lot of the ardent advocacy reads like it's from someone who'd do anything to sell his argument. That automatically makes me raise my guards, so in the end the argument comes down to this: if one believes Bruckner would have indeed completed his finale had he lived longer (and unlike Schubert he never abandoned work on one of his works before), then one should be prepared to reassess the 9th altogether, keeping in mind that the finale will always be conjectural.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 05, 2008, 02:22:43 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on January 04, 2008, 12:24:46 PM
The first three sound like a comfortable, worn in piece of clothing. The performers know where they are going and know what risks they can afford to take. They are thoroughly at home at every turn. That is simply not the case in the playing in the finale excerpts. The dynamic range is more limited and the playing is much more on the "safe" side. The phrasing is comparatively stiff. The first three movements are standard repertoire and the fourth is uncharted territory and it shows. You might argue that this is due to the fact that they are just playing excerpts for illustration purposes. But there are some quite sizeable stretches of music that could have been played with more conviction, more interpretive cohesion and generally more assured ensemble work.

Can you give examples for that? In the first section (track 2), the only insecure moment I hear is the very first entry of the strings. In fact, the force and determination with which the first tutti entries, especially the motif at 1'45 come crashing in totally startled me when I first heard it. It is also ideally prepared in the context when the the build-up towards it starts to fade away a little, suggesting that there will be no tutti entry after all, and then it suddenly comes anyway (I think Bruckner wrote that rather cleverly). I hear no indecisive or uneasy playing in general later either, no "are we playing here?" or "oops, how does this go?" moments, although there may be some which I don't recall right now. The general impression I had after listening to it several times was the exact opposite. Some of the playing, like the strings totally digging in in the fugato sections with sometimes pretty noisy attacks, I actually almost found a little too "emphatical" The internal musical development and context in those sections and passages that are largely intact makes sense to me to, like the way transitions or build-ups are handled. So what you are saying does not make sense to me at all. There is no "baby-stepping" going on here. The very ending of the excerpts is extremly confident and points to more coming after that - but there isn't. That, and the fragmentary nature of the material, with missing passages and all that, unsatisfying in itself and leaves you sitting there feeling short-changed. But that is the nature of what we have here - musical fragments, not of he composition as far as we can tell. It could be, since we don't know if the missing passages would have "made sense" or not (chances are they would have though, seeing that Bruckner was pretty good at composing large scale symphonies, he had actually done a few before). And not of the presentation either.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 05, 2008, 03:17:49 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on January 04, 2008, 05:01:17 PM
It is indeed strikingly modern sounding, but I wonder how much of that impression is borne of the almost disjointed assemblage of rather angular thematic material.

In my case, that impression doesn't have anything to do with that. It is the material itself, not the way it is put together which strikes me as rather innovative. But not "randomly" so because it has a lot of relationships with typical Bruckner ideas and material. It just takes the use of those ideas in musical contexts a few steps further. A typical Bruckner element is the use of ostinati, and there isn't much new about that at all in historical terms, but the way he does that here points forward even to some later "minimalist" developments.

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on January 04, 2008, 05:01:17 PM
From that quasi disintegration to the bold, gaunt and seemingly inconclusive finale, there seems to be some kind of progression toward a more abstract musical language. But that could also be an effect of the intervening years: musical advances could have mingled with declining mental powers and advancing illness.

Maybe. Or maybe not. It's not only that the finale is simply not completely finished as it is, it is also that the point of such a large-scale piece is not only to amass a lot of great musical ideas, but to present them in a coherent context and work out a symphonic argument between the elements to achieve that coherence. The bolder the material, the more potential there may be to elaborate on it in interesting and innovative ways, but the more difficult it also is to actually make that convincing. Some of the earlier versions of his finished symphonies also leave a somewhat incoherent, "rambling" impression. I think in most cases when Bruckner revised some of the symphonies, for whatever reason, be it that he felt the need for a revision himself or that he yelded to external pressures, the revised versions make more sense. And that in itself makes sense since Bruckner's symphonies are all very ambitious. It makes sense that he could find more convincing solutions for symphonic problems he had worked out earlier when he returned to them later, more experienced.

Whether or not his declining physical and mental health played a role in how he formulated his musical ideas we simply can not say. Because we don't understand what went on in Bruckner's head anyway, at any point in his life...

But he was not the kind of composer who would come up with daring musical ideas while sitting at the piano improvising wildly next to the open window during a stormy night, his hair blowing in the wind. That wouldn't have worked anyway in his case. He was an extremely organized and meticulous worker who was obsessed (literally) with counting and organizing things. That can also be seen from his scores in which he numbered every single bar and the music itself which has a lot of mathematical proportions in its form. So I think it is rather unlikely that what we have here are some random "crazy" ideas. He may not have been mentally healthy enough not actually manage to work out these ideas optimally, but then again, we don't know because we can't do better ourselves, and besides that, I think Bruckner was, in a way, mentally very seriously ill all his life. He definitely was pretty far "out there", but he brought us a lot of great music back from wherever he was.

Remember even many of his friends and supporters didn't "get" him and felt the need to "correct" and "improve" a lot of his music. That is why Bruckner gave his scores to the Austrian national library because he hoped they would survive there for posterity in the way he had written his music. It was apparently the younger Schalk brother who was supposed to bring together everything that Bruckner had written for the finale and who failed to do so. I think that's a great loss.

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on January 04, 2008, 05:01:17 PM
There is a very interesting (and lengthy) essay on the finale here (http://www.abruckner.com/Data/documents/bruckner_symphony_9_finale_vdw.pdf). After having read it I am still not convinced.

Convinced of what? That Bruckner wanted to complete the finale and that the 9th symphony was not supposed to end with the 3rd movement, or of this particular attempt at completing it?

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on January 04, 2008, 05:01:17 PM
A lot of the ardent advocacy reads like it's from someone who'd do anything to sell his argument. That automatically makes me raise my guards, so in the end the argument comes down to this: if one believes Bruckner would have indeed completed his finale had he lived longer (and unlike Schubert he never abandoned work on one of his works before), then one should be prepared to reassess the 9th altogether, keeping in mind that the finale will always be conjectural.

Well, what do you expect? Would you rather want to read somebody's arguments who does not appear to be convinced himself of what he is saying? I may not understand what you meant here.

Whether or not Bruckner would have completed his finale is not a matter of belief had he lived longer. Working on that is pretty much everything he did during the last phase of his life, and he was very far advanced with it when he died. Harnoncourt estimated it would only have taken him another 2 months or so to complete this first version.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 05, 2008, 08:22:14 AM
What I meant is not even clear to me, in a sense. There is ambiguity in the subject itself, and my response is to think "maybe. Or maybe not". Bruckner left masses of score sheets that he never used in a finished work. All composers jot down tons of material that simply helps them organize and try things in different ways. Upon moving into his last apartment, a few months before he died, he ordered his secretary to burn a lot of stuff. What I'm wondering is, how can we assume that all the sketches for the finale would actually have been used by Bruckner? He might  have reworked or even rejected some of his ideas.

That's why I'm ambivalent about the result that is presented to us in these reconstructions. Following the article (did you actually read it?) there's an interview in which Gunnar-Cohrs exemplifies the problem by saying: what if we'd take the seventh symphony's first movement, follow it by the scherzo and conclude with the Wagner adagio? Wouldn't our whole view and appreciation of the work be totally different?  That's why I think if one is to believe that the three movement 9th should be completed, then our whole reference grid for that work (made up of decades of hearing it in that truncated format) would become more or less useless. And the problem is further compounded when one had doubts about the validity of the completed finale.

Clearly there's a new dynamic at work that is starting to take root and gather momentum. It's a process that will take a while to become an accepted option in the Bruckner canon, and from there, it will take even more time and effort to find its place in the concert hall.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 05, 2008, 02:17:40 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 04, 2008, 09:16:38 AM
I promise to give the Wildner another spin tomorrow. And then I'll report back.

I listened two times to Wildner's performance of the Finale today... Yes, there are some undeniably beautiful and powerful moments, and yes, it is moving to be able to listen to some of the music that Bruckner must have heard inside his head, but: they are not enough to build a coherent whole, with all the slow-moving and grand inevitability I associate with Bruckner.

I haven't heard the latest version, so I don't know whether that would change my mind.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on January 07, 2008, 08:32:59 PM
Been giving the Harding version of the latest completion a couple of listens.

I find this really frustrating: no, it's not particularly convincing as a completion but damn, some of the musical ideas are wonderful, pushing the boundaries even further than the first three movements did. I hadn't previously heard the sketches in any form and had had no idea how the a finale could possibly have worked after that Adagio: now I at least think I know.

I think what I'd like to hear more than further attempts to complete the finale would be if some composer with a strong personality but a good empathy for the idiom (Wolfgang Rihm, say?) were to write a lengthy piece using the extant fragments: something like Berio's Rendering where no attempt is made to make a completion, merely setting them in an appropriate context. It would make an intriguing concert pairing with the three-movement version of the symphony, at least.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 08, 2008, 06:22:03 AM
Quote from: edward on January 07, 2008, 08:32:59 PM
Been giving the Harding version of the latest completion a couple of listens.

I find this really frustrating: no, it's not particularly convincing as a completion but damn, some of the musical ideas are wonderful, pushing the boundaries even further than the first three movements did. I hadn't previously heard the sketches in any form and had had no idea how the a finale could possibly have worked after that Adagio: now I at least think I know.

You can also find that out by listening to the 8th symphony. The slow movement is just as expansive, and it also has a very "final", peaceful ending. If that symphony had been the last, and without a completed finale, it could and would be played just like the 9th.

Don't be frustrated if what you heard doesn't seem to make sense to you. It really doesn't make complete sense to anyone I think. It is, after all, just fragments, in whatever context they are presented. That may also be a problem with the version you listened to. I know there is an actual released CD of the Harding version which I haven't heard. But I listened to a live recording which is a total mess. It is obvious that he can't make sense of whatever is there himself and he really doesn't know how to steer the orchestra through the movement. That makes it all sound even more fragmented and coherent than it actually is. That, plus the suprisingly bad and insecure playing of the Swedish RSO (O Mensch really needs to listen to that when he wants to hear "babystepping") make this a very frustrating listening experience in itself.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 08, 2008, 07:29:41 AM
Quote from: M forever on January 05, 2008, 02:22:43 AM
Can you give examples for that? In the first section (track 2), the only insecure moment...

No, I can't. I wasn't speaking of "insecurity", I was speaking of comfort and familiarity. The excerpts just don't flow as naturally as the prior three movements. There is nothing wrong or sketchy about the playing as such.

Quote from: M forever on January 05, 2008, 02:22:43 AMBut that is the nature of what we have here - musical fragments, not of he composition as far as we can tell.

I made that point already.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 08, 2008, 09:39:44 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on January 08, 2008, 07:29:41 AM
No, I can't. I wasn't speaking of "insecurity", I was speaking of comfort and familiarity. The excerpts just don't flow as naturally as the prior three movements.

Of course they don't. They are fragments. Even the more or less completed sections aren't ompletely "fleshed out" and "filed" yet. You can tell from other symphonies an the first three movements that Bruckner played the completed material on the piano and filled in little musical gestures here and there, details which make the music flow and proceed more organically, and more playable. Even the larger completed stretches, like track 2, still lack some of these elements. The nature of the material is rather "blocky". But the internal context, the way they move from one group of ideas to the next, makes a whole lot of musical sense. Again best heard in track 2. I am pretty sure you understand that the careful way the movement begins is defined by the nature of the material which appears from nowhere. But the buildups to the first tutti entries and the ebb and flow between them are very organical. Same about the transition to the second theme group. I particularly like how those dotted motifs in the violins appear to float in from a differen space. The buildup to and the way they play the grand choral like theme around 6'00 is just magnificent. I can't imagine a better advocacy for these musical fragments at this point. Actually, it is mostly that track which makes me regret that there isn't a coherent finale, even just a first version, because all that is very, very promising. Most of the rest of the fragments are just glimpses into what could have been. Very tantalizing, very mysterious.
BTW, NH had already conducted the finale fragments in concerts years before the recording was made. You probably thought he didn't and though it would just be cool to say that. Oops.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 08, 2008, 10:36:40 AM
Man, M, we're going in circles here. You just don't want to read plain English. I KNOW THEY ARE FRAGMENTS! All I am saying is that even as fragments they could have been played with more conviction and flow and that among the choices Wildner makes a better case for the last movement, or what's left of it. That should have been apparent from my first post and we could have spared ourselves the waste of time and bandwidth that it took to read and type the last few posts. You can spare yourself the nonsensical speculation about what you think I thought about NH. Geez...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 08, 2008, 12:12:17 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on January 08, 2008, 10:36:40 AM
I KNOW THEY ARE FRAGMENTS!

Oh, good.  ;)

Quote from: O Mensch on January 08, 2008, 10:36:40 AM
All I am saying is that even as fragments they could have been played with more conviction and flow

I am beginning to think we are actually talking about different recordings here. I have a hard time imagining this to be played with more "conviction", seein how the strings dig in in the first tutti entries, the fugato sections, how the whole orchestra comes crashing in with full force in the first tutti, and how well everything is phrased. I don't see any want of flow there either, especially in critical transitions. For instance, the transition from the first to the second group and the way these dotted string figures float in is masterfully handled. To clear this up, which recording were you talking about all the time?

I meant this one here:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NKcGvBunL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 08, 2008, 12:45:29 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 12:12:17 PM
Oh, good.  ;)

I am beginning to think we are actually talking about different recordings here. I have a hard time imagining this to be played with more "conviction", seein how the strings dig in in the first tutti entries, the fugato sections, how the whole orchestra comes crashing in with full force in the first tutti, and how well everything is phrased. I don't see any want of flow there either, especially in critical transitions. For instance, the transition from the first to the second group and the way these dotted string figures float in is masterfully handled. To clear this up, which recording were you talking about all the time?

I meant this one here:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NKcGvBunL._AA240_.jpg)

You know very well that I meant that same recording. No go compare to the Wildner. I found his flow more convincing.

Again, I might remind you that we started off with this nonsensical tangent because you took my comments way too extremely, while I merely was suggesting that the Wildner recording provides a better overall picture of the last movement.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Don on January 08, 2008, 12:53:23 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on January 08, 2008, 12:45:29 PM
You know very well that I meant that same recording. No go compare to the Wildner. I found his flow more convincing.

Again, I might remind you that we started off with this nonsensical tangent because you took my comments way too extremely, while I merely was suggesting that the Wildner recording provides a better overall picture of the last movement.

If you mess around with Harnoncourt, M forever will hunt you down.  Don't you know that?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 08, 2008, 01:14:53 PM
No, I just want to actuallly *discuss* music and interpretations. Instead of making blanket statements without backing them up or illustrating how one has arrived at that conclusion, I want to discuss the interpretation with some kind of musical argumentation referring to specific points or examples, like I provided here:

Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 12:12:17 PM
I have a hard time imagining this to be played with more "conviction", seein how the strings dig in in the first tutti entries, the fugato sections, how the whole orchestra comes crashing in with full force in the first tutti, and how well everything is phrased. I don't see any want of flow there either, especially in critical transitions. For instance, the transition from the first to the second group and the way these dotted string figures float in is masterfully handled.

Or here:

Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 09:39:44 AM
But the internal context, the way they move from one group of ideas to the next, makes a whole lot of musical sense. Again best heard in track 2. I am pretty sure you understand that the careful way the movement begins is defined by the nature of the material which appears from nowhere. But the buildups to the first tutti entries and the ebb and flow between them are very organical. Same about the transition to the second theme group. I particularly like how those dotted motifs in the violins appear to float in from a differen space. The buildup to and the way they play the grand choral like theme around 6'00 is just magnificent. I can't imagine a better advocacy for these musical fragments at this point.

Or here:

Quote from: M forever on January 05, 2008, 02:22:43 AM
Can you give examples for that? In the first section (track 2), the only insecure moment I hear is the very first entry of the strings. In fact, the force and determination with which the first tutti entries, especially the motif at 1'45 come crashing in totally startled me when I first heard it. It is also ideally prepared in the context when the the build-up towards it starts to fade away a little, suggesting that there will be no tutti entry after all, and then it suddenly comes anyway (I think Bruckner wrote that rather cleverly). I hear no indecisive or uneasy playing in general later either, no "are we playing here?" or "oops, how does this go?" moments, although there may be some which I don't recall right now. The general impression I had after listening to it several times was the exact opposite. Some of the playing, like the strings totally digging in in the fugato sections with sometimes pretty noisy attacks, I actually almost found a little too "emphatical" The internal musical development and context in those sections and passages that are largely intact makes sense to me to, like the way transitions or build-ups are handled. So what you are saying does not make sense to me at all. There is no "baby-stepping" going on here. The very ending of the excerpts is extremly confident and points to more coming after that - but there isn't.




Quote from: O Mensch on January 08, 2008, 12:45:29 PM
You know very well that I meant that same recording. No go compare to the Wildner. I found his flow more convincing.

I don't have that. Can you upload the finale somewhere for the sake of comparison?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 08, 2008, 03:02:54 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 01:14:53 PM
No, I just want to actuallly *discuss* music and interpretations. Instead of making blanket statements without backing them up or illustrating how one has arrived at that conclusion, I want to discuss the interpretation with some kind of musical argumentation referring to specific points or examples, like I provided here:

Great! Give yourself a big pat on your back for meeting your own criteria.

Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 01:14:53 PM
I don't have that. Can you upload the finale somewhere for the sake of comparison?

Then why were you arguing with me when you can't even make the comparison? That's all my post was about. Since it's a currently available recording, uploading would violate copyright law. It's a Naxos CD. That should be within your budget.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on January 08, 2008, 04:36:16 PM
Quote from: Don on January 08, 2008, 12:53:23 PM
If you mess around with Harnoncourt, M forever will hunt you down.  Don't you know that?

Harnoncourt is bad.

Come on, baby.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 08, 2008, 05:53:21 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on January 08, 2008, 03:02:54 PM
Great! Give yourself a big pat on your back for meeting your own criteria.

You sometimes meet these criteria, too! Yes, sometimes you make interesting musical observations and back up your arguments with examples. That's not a bad thing, really. Except here, you totally lost the argument. Not my fault though. I usually only make dramatic statements when I can defend them afterwards.

Quote from: O Mensch on January 08, 2008, 03:02:54 PM
Then why were you arguing with me when you can't even make the comparison? That's all my post was about.

Not true. I replied specifically to this statement from it which stands in itself, without the comparison with another recording:

Quote from: O Mensch on January 04, 2008, 08:09:33 AM
E.g. in the Harnoncourt recording, the VPO's playing of the first three movements is leagues better than their tentative baby steps in the excerpts of the finale.

You still haven't illustrated that statement with specific examples. I did assume though that that statement was because your reaction was more an emotional reaction to the fragmentary nature of the presentation than the actual playing, and that you couldn't separate that (which I know you often can't, remember when you - wrongly - heard "out of tune" and "not together" playing in the IPO recording of the 8th when you had to illustrate why you thought the orchestral playing was "bad"? But it was in fact your negative emotional reaction to Mehta's - admittedly not very interesting - interpretation than a fair assessment of the orchestral playing quality.).

BTW, I understand the Wildner recording is of one of the completions, I wouldn't compare that in those respects with a workshop presentation of the fragments anyway.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 09, 2008, 07:42:52 AM
Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 05:53:21 PM
You sometimes meet these criteria, too! Yes, sometimes you make interesting musical observations and back up your arguments with examples. That's not a bad thing, really. Except here, you totally lost the argument. Not my fault though. I usually only make dramatic statements when I can defend them afterwards.

Great. Now ask me if I care whether I meet "your criteria".

Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 05:53:21 PMYou still haven't illustrated that statement with specific examples. I did assume though that that statement was because your reaction was more an emotional reaction to the fragmentary nature of the presentation than the actual playing, and that you couldn't separate that (which I know you often can't, remember when you - wrongly - heard "out of tune" and "not together" playing in the IPO recording of the 8th when you had to illustrate why you thought the orchestral playing was "bad"? But it was in fact your negative emotional reaction to Mehta's - admittedly not very interesting - interpretation than a fair assessment of the orchestral playing quality.).

My dearest, you don't even know what emotions are. Please stop using the word. Some of us have lives and work and things like that and are not sufficiently geeky to actually waste the time to pick out excerpts from recordings they have listened to a year ago just to prove a meaningless point to someone they don't even know personally on a web forum. Take my comments for what they are worth. Deal with it!

PS: A dissonant passage can still be played in tune or out of tune (Boulez can tell you, if you don't believe me). The B8 listening example you are referring to (or should I say harping upon) being a comparison, you should have plenty of examples to compare that pathetic IPO performance against and hear what I mean. Sorry, you didn't hear that. Or maybe it's better for you. It allows you to enjoy second rate performances much better.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 09, 2008, 08:14:48 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on January 09, 2008, 07:42:52 AM
My dearest, you don't even know what emotions are. Please stop using the word. Some of us have lives and work and things like that and are not sufficiently geeky to actually waste the time to pick out excerpts from recordings they have listened to a year ago just to prove a meaningless point to someone they don't even know personally on a web forum.

I don't do that to prove anything about you. I do it because a lot of people (myself included) think it's a lot of fun and it creates some of the most interesting (and revealing) discussions. That you revealed too much about your lack of knowledge about technical aspects of orchestral music making is not my fault! That just sometimes happens when people like to make dramatic statements which they can't back up with arguments then. Sorry, but again, not my fault  ;)

Quote from: O Mensch on January 09, 2008, 07:42:52 AM
PS: A dissonant passage can still be played in tune or out of tune (Boulez can tell you, if you don't believe me).

Really? Wow. What a deep insight.  ::) *Anything* can be in tune or out of tune. But in a given musical situation and intonation system, what is in or out of tune is pretty much objective. You could simply have said "this is too sharp" or "this is too flat" (or both, after all, several people playing together can be off in various directions). But you couldn't do that. Besides, even if it had been out of tune, to base the judgment that a whole orchestra plays just badly on isolated little blemishes is pretty silly. Even the very best orchestras have that happen here and there. Take the one in your home town, for instance, that is supposed to be really good, but when I heard it live last year, there were a lot of places which didn't really work, a lot of intonation problems, especially in the horns. Unfortunately, I do hear all that. But it's not the single most decisive point. The quality of the music making is what counts. OK, that wasn't so great either, but that's a different subject.


So, why all this fuss instead of just pointing to a few places in the recording we talked about to illustrate your views?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 09, 2008, 08:31:25 AM
Quote from: M forever on January 09, 2008, 08:14:48 AM
That just sometimes happens when people like to make dramatic statements which they can't back up with arguments then. Sorry, but again, not my fault  ;)

Not having backed something up with examples does not mean not being able to. But that nuance eludes you. Again, revisit my prior post.

Quote from: M forever on January 09, 2008, 08:14:48 AM
Really? Wow. What a deep insight.  ::) *Anything* can be in tune or out of tune. But in a given musical situation and intonation system, what is in or out of tune is pretty much objective. You could simply have said "this is too sharp" or "this is too flat" (or both, after all, several people playing together can be off in various directions). But you couldn't do that.

Actually, yes I did. But you took one example out of context and decided to turn it into a crusade against me. But this discussion is out of place here anyway. This isn't RMCR.

Quote from: M forever on January 09, 2008, 08:14:48 AM
So, why all this fuss instead of just pointing to a few places in the recording we talked about to illustrate your views?

See above.

You must be incredibly bored in SD...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 09, 2008, 08:37:55 AM
Actually, I really am right now. There isn't really that much that interests me to do around here, as "nice" as it is. I am actually in the middle of finalizing negotiations for a job which would take me to Boston, MA. Hopefully, there is more action there. If I do move, I will probably uhaul myself and my stuff across the entire US. Mapquest says the shortest route takes me up to Chicago and then East. But isn't the weather in the Midwest totally horrible right now, with lots of ice and bad street conditions?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 09, 2008, 08:39:34 AM
Quote from: M forever on January 09, 2008, 08:37:55 AM
Actually, I really am right now. There isn't really that much that interests me to do around here, as "nice" as it is. I am actually in the middle of finalizing negotiations for a job which would take me to Boston, MA. Hopefully, there is more action there. If I do move, I will probably uhaul myself and my stuff across the entire US. Mapquest says the shortest route takes me up to Chicago and then East. But isn't the weather in the Midwest totally horrible right now, with lots of ice and bad street conditions?

This is so OT, I'm moving this to a PM.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 09, 2008, 08:56:17 AM
Very true. To bring this back on topic, can anyone think of any really good BSO Bruckner recordings? I can't, right now. I wonder why that is.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on January 09, 2008, 09:53:46 AM
Quote from: M forever on January 09, 2008, 08:56:17 AM
Very true. To bring this back on topic, can anyone think of any really good BSO Bruckner recordings? I can't, right now. I wonder why that is.

Under whom? Koussevitzky, Monteux, Munch, Leinsdorf, Steinberg, Ozawa & Levine, none of them I readily associate with Bruckner (with admittedly little knowledge on Leinsdorf and Steinberg). Such a long line of non-Bruckner inclined MDs has to be at least part of the answer.

Berky's discography shows what looks like only 2 commercial recordings and maybe dozen broadcasts in total.

Very nice 8th under Tennstedt was floating around (Tanglewood broadcast), other than that I can't remember hearing any at all.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on January 09, 2008, 09:58:16 AM
Quote from: Drasko on January 09, 2008, 09:53:46 AM
Under whom? Koussevitzky, Monteux, Munch, Leinsdorf, Steinberg, Ozawa & Levine, none of them I readily associate with Bruckner (with admittedly little knowledge on Leinsdorf and Steinberg). Such a long line of non-Bruckner inclined MDs has to be at least part of the answer.

Berky's discography shows what looks like only 2 commercial recordings and maybe dozen broadcasts in total.

Very nice 8th under Tennstedt was floating around (Tanglewood broadcast), other than that I can't remember hearing any at all.

whaaaa....! Giulini did a Bruckner with Bostson symphony orchestra!!?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on January 09, 2008, 10:53:09 AM
Quote from: Drasko on January 09, 2008, 09:53:46 AM
Very nice 8th under Tennstedt was floating around (Tanglewood broadcast), other than that I can't remember hearing any at all.

I second this one - that broadcast is very good (quite a firey interpretation). The rips of it circulating around seem to be of slightly variable sound quality, though... If somebody can't find a live link I could host it somewhere.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Don on January 09, 2008, 11:05:22 AM
Quote from: M forever on January 09, 2008, 08:37:55 AM
Actually, I really am right now. There isn't really that much that interests me to do around here, as "nice" as it is. I am actually in the middle of finalizing negotiations for a job which would take me to Boston, MA. Hopefully, there is more action there. If I do move, I will probably uhaul myself and my stuff across the entire US. Mapquest says the shortest route takes me up to Chicago and then East. But isn't the weather in the Midwest totally horrible right now, with lots of ice and bad street conditions?

Not on a daily business.  Just do your driving, listen to weather reports and know where the motels are.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 09, 2008, 05:24:32 PM
The Tennstedt BSO 8 is magnificent. I recall a broadcast of the same symphony under Kubelik that blew me out of my seat - well, not quite: I was driving ;D

The only commercial recordings out there are a Leinsdorf 4 and a Steinberg 6 (both on RCA, I heard neither). During his tenure Steinberg also conducted the 7 and 8. All extant BSO recordings are listed here (http://www.abruckner.com/recordings/default.htm,search=Boston%20Symphony%20Orchestra).

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 09, 2008, 06:00:42 PM
For those of you on Operashare, there is now a Bruckner 7 with BSO/Tennstedt live from Tanglewood available among the recent uploads. Haven't heard it yet. Downloading as we speak.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on January 09, 2008, 06:13:07 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on January 09, 2008, 05:24:32 PM
The Tennstedt BSO 8 is magnificent. I recall a broadcast of the same symphony under Kubelik that blew me out of my seat - well, not quite: I was driving ;D
Was this Kubelik with the BSO or another orchestra? I see there's a live Kubelik 8th on Orfeo: given how fine the 9th is I suspect it's only a matter of time before I acquire it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 09, 2008, 06:58:48 PM
Quote from: edward on January 09, 2008, 06:13:07 PM
Was this Kubelik with the BSO or another orchestra? I see there's a live Kubelik 8th on Orfeo: given how fine the 9th is I suspect it's only a matter of time before I acquire it.

Methinks you're confusing BSO (Boston) with BRSO (Munich).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on January 09, 2008, 07:08:22 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on January 09, 2008, 06:58:48 PM
Methinks you're confusing BSO (Boston) with BRSO (Munich).
No, I know what orchestra is on the Orfeo ones: I was wondering which orchestra was playing in the Kubelik 8th Lilas was mentioning hearing on the radio.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on January 09, 2008, 07:28:20 PM
Quote from: edward on January 09, 2008, 07:08:22 PM
No, I know what orchestra is on the Orfeo ones: I was wondering which orchestra was playing in the Kubelik 8th Lilas was mentioning hearing on the radio.

you should definitely check out Kubelik's 8th (orfeo).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 10, 2008, 08:06:25 AM
The Bruckner 7 with Tennstedt on Operashare is already deleted. I contacted the uploader and he said that he made a mistake there and encoded the files in mono. He will post the stereo version later today or tomorrow.

There was also a posting with the 8th with Tennstedt, but the links have expired. I requested it to be re-uploaded, let's see if the original poster or someone else does.

There is also a live Bruckner 9 with BSO/Janowski from October 2007 which I have just grabbed, but not yet listened to.


Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 30, 2007, 07:35:23 AM
And here is the Scherzo from a concert given at the Suntory Hall, Toyko, 22 Oct 86, on the Altus label.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/Bruck5Celi.jpg)

Ripped and posted so that a sound quality comparison can be made:

http://rapidshare.de/files/38164406/bruckner5-scherzo.mp3.html

Sarge


This sounds pretty good, it appears fairly "realistic" to me. Actually a little "brassier" still than what I heard, but that performance was also a few years earlier, and in a different hall. It would be very interesting to hear the rest of the performance. I think the outer movements with their more layered textures would be more instructive as a comparison, especially the first movement.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 10, 2008, 06:15:29 PM
Quote from: edward on January 09, 2008, 06:13:07 PM
Was this Kubelik with the BSO or another orchestra? I see there's a live Kubelik 8th on Orfeo: given how fine the 9th is I suspect it's only a matter of time before I acquire it.

It was the BSO (Boston). The BRSO is a very fine performance, but some orchestral bloopers (brass mostly) are part and parcel of a very involved and dynamic performance. And although it dates from the sixties, it's in mono. I heard the Boston performance in the early eighties,  one of the orchestra's public broadcasts. IIRC the curtain raiser was a Handel op 6 concerto grosso.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 16, 2008, 08:33:37 PM
I just listened to Harding's performance of the most recent completion of the finale of the 9th. I seem to detect some interesting new twists and transitions in this version, including some fascinating new dissonances, but I would have to do a closer listening comparison to the Wildner to describe the differences more precisely. I am not happy with Harding though. There is less of a coherent conception of the movement than with Wildner. Harding's phrasing also tends towards the lumpy, interfering with the maintenance of a long line. The orchestra also doesn't sound quite convinced at times. Phrases just end without much care as to how.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 16, 2008, 09:40:32 PM
That is a very diplomatic review for a really bad performance. A lot of the "fascinating new dissonances" are simply wrong notes, especially in the strings many of which are obviously overwhelmed with playing that material. Or are we talking about different performances? I am talking about the live recording that was posted on Operashare. "A less coherent" conception is also a really nice way to describe that there is really no control over the orchestra from the "conductor". All he does is add a few highlights here and there to fake "expressive phrasing". This is so bad, it is almost embarrassing to listen to it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 17, 2008, 08:29:47 AM
I only listened to the last movement, not the first three. The first three mya be atrocious, I don't know. Without the score it's hard to say what are wrong notes and what are intentional dissonances. As you recall, Harnoncourt's lecture mentions that many dissonances in the original were mis-corrected in previous editions of the completion of the finale. My positive comments were indeed only on the new completion, not the performance, which I agree is terrible, both from the orchestra and the conductor. The main big theme is rendered as completely separate notes. You wouldn't even know it's a theme if you didn't know it beforehand. In fact, you wouldn't know it's Bruckner if you didn't know it beforehand.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 17, 2008, 12:27:40 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on January 17, 2008, 08:29:47 AM
I only listened to the last movement, not the first three. The first three mya be atrocious, I don't know.

Same here. I only listened to the finale, and what I heard there did not make me want to listen to the first three movements. Maybe they are totally awesome though. Maybe we are missing the greatest ever performance of Bruckner 9.

Quote from: O Mensch on January 17, 2008, 08:29:47 AM
Without the score it's hard to say what are wrong notes and what are intentional dissonances. As you recall, Harnoncourt's lecture mentions that many dissonances in the original were mis-corrected in previous editions of the completion of the finale.

What I meant is that there are a number of places where the strings are confused and you can clearly hear that part of one section plays wrong notes. I don't mean divisi sections either, just obvious confusedness with people contributing wrong notes to the section (not to even speak of bad intonation) effort. That's not necessarily the "newness" of the music either. The overall playing of that orchestra is simply surpisingly bad, but we have to take into account that they are very obviously not competently led either. I know that can sometimes make it really hard for the orchestra to bring everything together, especially when the material is now and unknown.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 17, 2008, 12:30:06 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 17, 2008, 12:27:40 PM
What I meant is that there are a number of places where the strings are confused and you can clearly hear that part of one section plays wrong notes. I don't mean divisi sections either, just obvious confusedness with people contributing wrong notes to the section (not to even speak of bad intonation) effort.

Oh, totally. The strings are a mess. But those weren't the instances of the dissonances I was speaking of. The ones I meant were in the brass or brass vs. the rest of the orchestra.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on January 17, 2008, 12:44:42 PM
which harding recording are you guys refering to? is there a chance that you can post the link here?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 17, 2008, 02:24:36 PM
It's a live broadcast performance with Harding conducting the Swedish radio symphony orchestra. You'd have to be a member of the operashare or concertarchive newsgroups to download it. It's on both. But it's not really worth your time and effort.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 17, 2008, 05:39:43 PM
Going out on a limb, there: I recently acquainted myself for the first time ever to the "00" symphony. I was struck particularly by the seemingly ramshackle structure of the first movement. Not that it's terrible. Just that it sounds like it's looking for a direction. Plus it is very fragmented, with little continuity until the recap. Like it's sending out balloons to test the waters - or the atmosphere, I should say. When I last listened to the completed finale of the 9th I had the exact same impression.

Thought # 1: Bruckner disavowed and never came back to this so-called "study symphony".
Thought # 2: Would he have wanted his work in progress on the 9th's finale to be immortalized in its obviously incomplete state?
Thought # 3: I just don't know what to think of the whole thing in terms of musical ethics.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 17, 2008, 07:43:31 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on January 17, 2008, 05:39:43 PM
Thought # 1: Bruckner disavowed and never came back to this so-called "study symphony".
Thought # 2: Would he have wanted his work in progress on the 9th's finale to be immortalized in its obviously incomplete state?
Thought # 3: I just don't know what to think of the whole thing in terms of musical ethics.

Well, as long as audiences approach 00 and the 9 completions with the right mindset that these arent mature/final products, I don't see an issue with performing them. BTW, certain parts of the finale fo the 9th are indeed quite advanced in completion level and near final. It's just that numerous transitions are missing, as is the final fugue, which was supposed to have put the main themes of the preceding movements, as well as the main themes of the 5th, 7th and 8th symphonies on top of each other, like a personal apotheosis of Bruckner's oeuvre in the form of a musical layer cake.  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 18, 2008, 01:17:21 AM
It is hard to say what Bruckner's music is "exactly" about, god, the universe, the powers that govern it, whatever it is, Bruckner wrote his music as a statement about something. He saw music as the language in which he could "word" his "message", so he studied music very intensely and worked very hard on his musical language and his compositions throughout all his life. For him, the music was a medium, what mattered was the "message".
For us, the music has become the primary object of interest. We don't see it as just a medium, we see it as the object of interest itself. Bruckner probably saw himself just as a messenger, a humble prophet, but for us today, his work is one of the towering achievements in music history. Because of the extraordinary quality and nature of his music, it is a very powerful expression of the creative and visionary human psyche as such. You don't have to see it just as a medium with a function. That's like studying church architecture or the history of art. Most of which is religious and functional in content and intent, too. You don't have to necessarily believe in its content and function to study and appreciate it. So it's just natural that we study Bruckner's music as an object of interest in itself, and that we want to know what he worked on during the last years of his life. We want to get at least a partial idea of what he wanted to "say" and how he wanted to "say" it.
That's like saying we have a partially preserved statue, should we throw it away or exhibit it? People in past ages often just threw away the "old stuff" or knocked it to pieces to reuse them, or painted it over. We see that as a great loss. So why should we throw away the finale fragments of Bruckner's last symphony? I don't think anyone would want that. The question is, in what way can we present them to do them most justice? I personally think at thispoint that the workshop concert solution is the best. But I haven't looked at all the other solutions enough yet to really form a definitive opinion about that.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 18, 2008, 06:26:07 PM
Very interesting, M. This addresses that 'musical ethics' matter that still puzzles me.

Your 'unfinished statue' example is very relevant. Here's a famous example, Michelangelo's Atlas:

(http://www.thais.it/scultura/image/sch00068.jpg)

One can sense the dynamism (movement), the general aesthetic, the brute force that radiates from the uncarved marble.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 18, 2008, 07:27:05 PM
Looks like someone knocked the naughty bits off!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 18, 2008, 11:27:08 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 18, 2008, 07:27:05 PM
Looks like someone knocked the naughty bits off!

Those 'bits' are superfluous when you're supporting the whole universe in eternity.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 19, 2008, 09:05:28 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 18, 2008, 11:27:08 PM
Those 'bits' are superfluous when you're supporting the whole universe in eternity.

Nicely put, and that impression still comes across in its unfinished state.

I could understand some enthusiast casting a duplicate and attempting to carve it into a michelangesque lookalike. And then another enthusiast would jump into the fray and say, "no, no, no, you got it wrong. Let me show you how it should go"  :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 19, 2008, 10:15:43 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on January 19, 2008, 09:05:28 AM
I could understand some enthusiast casting a duplicate and attempting to carve it into a michelangesque lookalike. And then another enthusiast would jump into the fray and say, "no, no, no, you got it wrong. Let me show you how it should go"  :D

;D 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 21, 2008, 02:59:57 PM
A concert (http://www.brucknerfreunde.at/forum/konzertkritiken/4669-bruckner-9-n%E9zet-s%E9guin-cbso-%96-birmingham-19-1-08-english.html) featuring the 9th symphony with Nézet-Séguin and the City of Birmingham S.O. last week. I was at their Montreal concert last October. And it was indeed formidable.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Varg on January 23, 2008, 08:56:00 PM
I had my first Bruckner experience a few weeks ago with his 9th (Skrowaczewski/Minnesota Orchestra). Such a majestic, intense work; exactly my cup of tea, and, with that particular recording, i cant ask for more.

Next one will be the 8th. What can i expect from it, especially from it's adagio?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on January 23, 2008, 09:40:09 PM
Quote from: Varg on January 23, 2008, 08:56:00 PM
I had my first Bruckner experience a few weeks ago with his 9th (Skrowaczewski/Minnesota Orchestra). Such a majestic, intense work; exactly my cup of tea, and, with that particular recording, i cant ask for more.

Next one will be the 8th. What can i expect from it, especially from it's adagio?

Glad you liked the 9th, Varg. You should also check out the more "mainstream" recordings, such as Giulini/VPO, Wand/BPO or NDRSO, Celibidache/MPO etc.

As for the 8th's adagio, I have only one word to describe it: heavenly. Wisely choose a recording. Karajan/WPO on DG is probably the most well known and highly regarded, and deservedly so. The finale (especially the coda) is awe-inspiring...just pay attention to the build-up of tension and sudden parallel key modulation at the coda. It's magical.

Welcome to the religion of Anton Bruckner!  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on January 23, 2008, 09:56:23 PM
The 8th is amazing, truly, Bruckner at the height of his own confidence and ability. Pay attention to the basic themes, and what Bruckner does with them. (hint:pay attention to the beginning of the scherzo and the adagio and the final coda)

There are many great 8th recordings. Off the top of my head, two very hard to find yet definitive recordings: Wand's 8th with NDR that was recorded in a church(forgot the name), and the 8th by Sinopoli with S.Dresden. These two are tough to find, so a more practical choice is Giulini's 8th with Wiener Philharmoniker.

You are also in luck, because two great 8th are newly released:
i am talking about Keilberth's 8th with KRSO,
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510S1eHTx7L._AA240_.jpg)
and Klemperer's 8th with SWR (I have yet to listen to this recording).
(http://www.abruckner.com/newreleases/featurednewrelease/symphony8klemperer/mm021-2.jpg,3)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 23, 2008, 10:38:30 PM
Yes, that is a very good performance in every respect. I would recommend getting the video rather than the DG recording though. Or both, if you want. I have never gotten around to comparing them directly. I believe the video was filmed on one day, and the DG concert was edited together from two performances - I could be wrong though. My impression - again, without having compared the two side by side - is that the recorded sound on the video is better though. The DG recording is very reverberant, textures aren't really clear in many places and balances are sometimes a little off, even a little odd. Right now, both the CD and the video are in boxes on their way to the East Coast, but when I have caught up with them and unpacked all my stuff, I should really finally make that comparison.

The summit of Bruckner interpretation on disc for me is still the 8th with the WP and Giulini though. There are a few others which I think come very close to it, but this performance goes a little further still.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Varg on January 24, 2008, 12:06:27 AM
Quote from: M für immer on January 23, 2008, 09:40:09 PM
Glad you liked the 9th, Varg. You should also check out the more "mainstream" recordings, such as Giulini/VPO, Wand/BPO or NDRSO, Celibidache/MPO etc.

As for the 8th's adagio, I have only one word to describe it: heavenly. Wisely choose a recording. Karajan/WPO on DG is probably the most well known and highly regarded, and deservedly so. The finale (especially the coda) is awe-inspiring...just pay attention to the build-up of tension and sudden parallel key modulation at the coda. It's magical.

Welcome to the religion of Anton Bruckner!  :)

Thanks, M für immer!

I compared all the most praised recording when searching for the 9th. The Celibidache recording sounded fantastic, but the adagio let me down; i doubt i'll ever find an adagio that surpass the one of Skrowaczewski. The 8th is a different story, as Celibidache will probably win that round!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 24, 2008, 12:50:20 AM
[OT. Just a question: M forever = M für immer?]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Varg on January 24, 2008, 01:14:28 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 24, 2008, 12:50:20 AM
[OT. Just a question: M forever = M für immer?]

M für immer is the forum name of another member!! ;D

Sounds pretty alike, eh?!

Now that i think about it, it could be a (german?) translation of M forever. Maybe they're old pals or something!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 24, 2008, 01:43:05 AM
Quote from: Varg on January 24, 2008, 01:14:28 AM
M für immer is the forum name of another member!! ;D

Sounds pretty alike, eh?!

Now that i think about it, it could be a (german?) translation of M forever. Maybe they're old pals or something!

Yes, it means exactly the same. And M forever is a German. That's why I'm asking...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: The new erato on January 24, 2008, 02:12:37 AM
maybe I should become Tojours M to add to the confusion.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 24, 2008, 02:23:35 AM
Quote from: erato on January 24, 2008, 02:12:37 AM
maybe I should become Tojours M to add to the confusion.

M forever - M für immer - Toujours M - M para siempre - M voor altijd... Yes, I see how this could go on forever!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 24, 2008, 10:17:05 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 24, 2008, 12:50:20 AM
[OT. Just a question: M forever = M für immer?]

I am a little shocked that you confuse me with that little . . . who thiks it's funny to mock some other member's forum name. The completely different quality of the content of the posts should have made it obvious to you that these are two different posters. BTW, "M für immer" is not the correct translation of my member name into German.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 24, 2008, 10:44:37 AM
Quote from: M forever on January 24, 2008, 10:17:05 AM
I am a little shocked that you confuse me with that little idiot who thiks it's funny to mock some other member's forum name. The completely different quality of the content of the posts should have made it obvious to you that these are two different posters. BTW, "M für immer" is not the correct translation of my member name into German.

Sorry to have offended you. Yes, the (knowledgeable) character of your contributions is unmistakable. Btw, how would you translate your name into German then?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on January 24, 2008, 02:50:18 PM
I wasn't offended. I am not easily offended anyway. I will tell you in a PM how that is properly translated. "M für immer" as a name does not make sense in German.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on January 24, 2008, 05:04:52 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 24, 2008, 02:50:18 PM
I wasn't offended. I am not easily offended anyway. I will tell you in a PM how that is properly translated. "M für immer" as a name does not make sense in German.

I changed it, just because I know you still love me.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Steve on January 24, 2008, 08:15:49 PM
What do think of Karajan in is one?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: George on January 25, 2008, 06:56:55 AM
Quote from: Steve on January 24, 2008, 08:15:49 PM
What do think of Karajan in is one?

Me don't know, Tarzan.  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Varg on February 27, 2008, 05:12:58 AM
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/002-6163712-6096059?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=Bruckner+Celibidache&x=22&y=19

I'm looking for this set, but i cant find it anywhere except on amazon, and since i dont have a credit card, that's not an option. Anyone knows where i can find it?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Keemun on February 27, 2008, 06:21:05 AM
Quote from: Varg on February 27, 2008, 05:12:58 AM
I'm looking for this set, but i cant find it anywhere except on amazon, and since i dont have a credit card, that's not an option. Anyone knows where i can find it?

Barns & Noble has this on its website (http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?z=y&EAN=724355668820&itm=2) (albeit more expensively), which means you should be able to go into a local Barnes & Noble store and special order it, paying by your preferred method. 

Another option might be for you to go to a store and purchase a Visa gift card (http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/prepaid/visa_gift_card.html) and then use the card to purchase the set on Amazon.com.

Of course, these options require that you live in a place where Barnes & Noble stores are located or Visa gift cards are available.  Good luck, I hope this helps.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 27, 2008, 06:33:44 AM
Quote from: Gustav on January 23, 2008, 09:56:23 PM

There are many great 8th recordings. Off the top of my head, two very hard to find yet definitive recordings: Wand's 8th with NDR that was recorded in a church(forgot the name), and the 8th by Sinopoli with S.Dresden. These two are tough to find, so a more practical choice is Giulini's 8th with Wiener Philharmoniker.

I think you mean Luebeck. As in this (http://www.amazon.com/Anton-Bruckner-Symphony-Cathedral-Recording/dp/B00000E6LD/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1204126149&sr=8-1) recording. Yes the recording is fiendishly difficult to find in the States. I found it once on Ebay for about $10 and yes the performance is staggeringly good. It is almost as if Wand reached back for a little bit extra in this one. The dynamic shadings are so nuanced, so palpably layered, that no two phrases sound the same. The great Adagio has that feeling as if time just stops and you are just experiencing, not hearing the sound of heaven.

There is also a 9th at the same church. It is good but not as good as the 8th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on February 27, 2008, 09:19:06 AM
Quote from: Keemun on February 27, 2008, 06:21:05 AM
Barns & Noble has this on its website (http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?z=y&EAN=724355668820&itm=2) (albeit more expensively), which means you should be able to go into a local Barnes & Noble store and special order it, paying by your preferred method. 

Another option might be for you to go to a store and purchase a Visa gift card (http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/prepaid/visa_gift_card.html) and then use the card to purchase the set on Amazon.com.

Of course, these options require that you live in a place where Barnes & Noble stores are located or Visa gift cards are available.  Good luck, I hope this helps.  :)

what a rip-off though, it's not worth that much money! I think another option is just to download from itunes, or get the individual performances (which ironically sells for a much lower price!). Plus, it's a mix-bag, Celi's intepretations are fascinating, and it worked great for the 4th and 8th, the 9th is kind of disappointing, and i don't even remember the rest, so you might want to just get 4th, and if you like what you hear, try to get the rest, either from amazon or ebay.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on February 27, 2008, 09:21:35 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 27, 2008, 06:33:44 AM
I think you mean Luebeck. As in this (http://www.amazon.com/Anton-Bruckner-Symphony-Cathedral-Recording/dp/B00000E6LD/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1204126149&sr=8-1) recording. Yes the recording is fiendishly difficult to find in the States. I found it once on Ebay for about $10 and yes the performance is staggeringly good. It is almost as if Wand reached back for a little bit extra in this one. The dynamic shadings are so nuanced, so palpably layered, that no two phrases sound the same. The great Adagio has that feeling as if time just stops and you are just experiencing, not hearing the sound of heaven.

There is also a 9th at the same church. It is good but not as good as the 8th.


The church acoustics definitely helped those two recordings. Btw, I think your memory is failing you or something, but, I don't think an rare recording like that (Wand NDR 8th in Luebeck) would only fetch 10 dollars. My estimation is at 30 dollars or more(depending upon the condition of course).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on February 27, 2008, 09:25:05 PM
Anyone know if the Karajan 8th DVD on Sony classics has good sound? I know the performance is definitely a killer but Sony classics don't usually do justice to their DVD recordings...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 28, 2008, 03:47:36 AM
Quote from: Gustav on February 27, 2008, 09:21:35 AM
I don't think an rare recording like that (Wand NDR 8th in Luebeck) would only fetch 10 dollars. My estimation is at 30 dollars or more(depending upon the condition of course).
Well it was BUYNOW at $10 plus some shipping charge. The seller had listed a boaload of stuff for sale, single disc for $5 and duals for $10 . It was in flawless condition. I caught it just about right at the start of the auction otherwise I am sure given a few more minutes someone would have grabbed it.

You'll be surprised to see how much or how little some "rare" recordings would fetch. Giulini's WP 8th is pretty rare (yes you can get it from Japan) but once I saw it listed for $20 and didn't sell. I also saw it in the record stored used for $6 and no one touched it for weeks.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Varg on March 01, 2008, 02:54:18 PM
Quote from: Keemun on February 27, 2008, 06:21:05 AM
Barns & Noble has this on its website (http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?z=y&EAN=724355668820&itm=2) (albeit more expensively), which means you should be able to go into a local Barnes & Noble store and special order it, paying by your preferred method. 

Another option might be for you to go to a store and purchase a Visa gift card (http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/prepaid/visa_gift_card.html) and then use the card to purchase the set on Amazon.com.

Of course, these options require that you live in a place where Barnes & Noble stores are located or Visa gift cards are available.  Good luck, I hope this helps.  :)

It finally appeared on Ebay. I got it new for 150$ shipped!

Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on March 01, 2008, 03:19:24 PM
Quote from: Varg on March 01, 2008, 02:54:18 PM
It finally appeared on Ebay. I got it new for 150$ shipped!

Thanks for your help.

wow, i thought no one would buy those over-priced cds, but apparently you did. Well, enjoy the music then, i hope you won't be too disappointed by them.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on March 01, 2008, 04:03:01 PM
Goddang, the grandeur and beauty of Bruckner's chorale is incomparable to any other composer's. Just heard the 5th and the 7th by Wand and BPO, and boy was that soul-touching.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Varg on March 01, 2008, 04:08:10 PM
Quote from: Gustav on March 01, 2008, 03:19:24 PM
wow, i thought no one would buy those over-priced cds, but apparently you did. Well, enjoy the music then, i hope you won't be too disappointed by them.

I'm sure i won't, that's why i paid big money for it. And it's not that bad, since the individual recordings cost around 30$ each, most of them being unavailable anywhere.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 01, 2008, 05:21:53 PM
Quote from: Varg on March 01, 2008, 02:54:18 PM
It finally appeared on Ebay. I got it new for 150$ shipped!

Thanks for your help.
Why wouldn't you just buy from Amazon. It sells for $127 and shipping is free as in here (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphonies-Nos-Mass-minor/dp/B0000246CT/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1204424427&sr=8-1).

Or maybe you don't live in the U.S.?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Varg on March 01, 2008, 05:24:49 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 01, 2008, 05:21:53 PM
Why wouldn't you just buy from Amazon. It sells for $127 and shipping is free as in here (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphonies-Nos-Mass-minor/dp/B0000246CT/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1204424427&sr=8-1).

Or maybe you don't live in the U.S.?

Because i dont have a credit card.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 01, 2008, 05:32:13 PM
Quote from: Varg on March 01, 2008, 05:24:49 PM
Because i dont have a credit card.
Oh, missed that part. So you paid with money order on ebay? That's pretty risky.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on March 02, 2008, 12:59:42 AM
I wonder if I should acquire some of Sanderling's Bruckner. Does anybody here consider him among the top choices for these individual symphonies? And how are his performances interpretation-wise? I generally like this conductor in other repertoire.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4010276011477.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0881488502022.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0782124215125.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on March 02, 2008, 02:27:10 AM
Quote from: Perfect FIFTH on February 27, 2008, 09:25:05 PM
Anyone know if the Karajan 8th DVD on Sony classics has good sound? I know the performance is definitely a killer but Sony classics don't usually do justice to their DVD recordings...

I second the question, any comments on this release?

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0886972023991.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: toledobass on March 02, 2008, 07:42:35 AM
Quote from: rubio on March 02, 2008, 12:59:42 AM
I wonder if I should acquire some of Sanderling's Bruckner. Does anybody here consider him among the top choices for these individual symphonies? And how are his performances interpretation-wise? I generally like this conductor in other repertoire.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4010276011477.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0881488502022.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0782124215125.jpg)

I haven't heard the others,  but that 7th is one of my favorite performances of that symphony.  It's been a while,  but the things that I like in the performance are all based around pacing of the line and transitions from section to section being effortless and unjarring.  The tempo are excellently thought out and are such that allow the line to breath and bloom while still mainaining some sense of forward motion. 

Sorry I can't offer more, get it though. Excellent music making on that disk.

Allan   
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Keemun on March 02, 2008, 08:24:17 AM
Quote from: Varg on March 01, 2008, 02:54:18 PM
It finally appeared on Ebay. I got it new for 150$ shipped!

Thanks for your help.

You're welcome. :)  Let us know how you like them.  I only have the 8th symphony from that set.


Quote from: rubio on March 02, 2008, 12:59:42 AM
I wonder if I should acquire some of Sanderling's Bruckner. Does anybody here consider him among the top choices for these individual symphonies? And how are his performances interpretation-wise? I generally like this conductor in other repertoire.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4010276011477.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0881488502022.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0782124215125.jpg)

The 7th is quite good.  Karajan is still my top choice, but this one is not far behind.  Unfortunately, I have not heard the rest. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Varg on March 02, 2008, 08:24:57 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 01, 2008, 05:32:13 PM
Oh, missed that part. So you paid with money order on ebay? That's pretty risky.

Not really; i'm sending 2-3 money orders a month since 5 years or so and never had any problem.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Varg on March 02, 2008, 08:39:01 AM
Quote from: Gustav on March 01, 2008, 09:22:57 PM
have you listened through it? I don't know, I listened the whole thing, and i thought the 4th and the 8th were very interesting and "must have" performances, the rest are not so memorable.

Again, unless you are a collector, i don't thinik people should pay that much money for it. 150 dollars can get you 2-3 bruckner cycles (with much more interesting interpretations too). By that, meant Wand's cycle (the earlier one), Eichhorn's cycle on Camerata, and either of Jochum's cylces.

I'm not the the kind who needs several different interpretations of a work; usually i'm comparing all the different versions of a work, by listening to hours of samples, and go for my overall favorite (tempo being the most important criteria). It's the music that's important to me, i just have to find the "right recording, based on my personal taste and how a particular work should sound (to me). And, in that case, no one came even close to Celibidache, except maybe for the 9th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on March 02, 2008, 08:49:12 AM
Quote from: Varg on March 02, 2008, 08:39:01 AM
I'm not the the kind who needs several different interpretations of a work; usually i'm comparing all the different versions of a work, by listening to hours of samples, and go for my overall favorite (tempo being the most important criteria). It's the music that's important to me, i just have to find the "right recording, based on my personal taste and how a particular work should sound (to me). And, in that case, no one came even close to Celibidache, except maybe for the 9th.

what about the early symphonies? 0,00, 1st, 2nd symphonies?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on March 02, 2008, 11:00:14 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on March 02, 2008, 02:27:10 AM
I second the question, any comments on this release?

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0886972023991.jpg)

The soundtracks on the Sony DVDs are the same ones as the DG releases on CD of the same performances. It even says "soundtrack for a Telemondial film production" or something similar on the back of the DG discs. So whether one considers these recordings as having "good sound" or not, it is basically the same quality on the CD and the DVD.

What is that release pictured above? Are those films, and if so, which ones? Is the 9th with the BP? Was it filmed/recorded in 1985? If so, I will definitely get it since, like I said somewhere above, I was in the concert in which that was filmed, and so far, it had only been available in VHS and on DVD only as Japanese import.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on March 06, 2008, 09:21:19 PM
Has anybody here heard these recordings? Blomstedt and the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig  seems like a good pairing in this music, and it has received some very positive comments over at rmcr.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4025796007084.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4025796006049.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on March 07, 2008, 11:10:10 PM
Quote from: M forever on March 02, 2008, 11:00:14 AM
The soundtracks on the Sony DVDs are the same ones as the DG releases on CD of the same performances. It even says "soundtrack for a Telemondial film production" or something similar on the back of the DG discs. So whether one considers these recordings as having "good sound" or not, it is basically the same quality on the CD and the DVD.

What is that release pictured above? Are those films, and if so, which ones? Is the 9th with the BP? Was it filmed/recorded in 1985? If so, I will definitely get it since, like I said somewhere above, I was in the concert in which that was filmed, and so far, it had only been available in VHS and on DVD only as Japanese import.

As for the Eighth, do you mean this one--)(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028942761124.jpg)?

As for your other questions, I don't know; I wasn't able to locate any additional info about this DVD online.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on March 07, 2008, 11:25:18 PM
The DG album of Bruckner 8 with the WP pictured above is the same performance as the Sony DVD. The DVD with the 8th and 9th and the b&w pic of HvK is, according to amazon.de, from Sony, too, so that is most likely the same performance of the 8th, and probably (hopefully!) the 9th I mentioned that was filmed live in Berlin in 1985 and previously published by Sony, but only on DVD in Japan.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on March 13, 2008, 07:14:53 AM
Quote from: M forever on March 02, 2008, 11:00:14 AM
Is the 9th with the BP? Was it filmed/recorded in 1985?

Yes and yes!  8) It was delivered today, so I can confirm, as is specified in the booklet, that:

Symphony No.9 (BPO) was recorded in November 1985 at the Philharmonie, Berlin.
Symphony No.8 (VPO) was recorded in November 1988 at Grosser Musikvereinsaal, Vienna.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on March 13, 2008, 07:22:19 PM
Newly acquired, and in the listening queue: Knappertsbusch recordings of symphonies 3-5 and 7-9. Various orchestras are involved (WP, BPO, Bavarian Opera), and apart from the familiar studio WP 5th, all are live recordings. Recordings date from 1949 - 1956. Fascinating listening in perspective!

Less stellar, but not to be neglected: the Ormandy-Philadelphia 4th anf the Haenchen Netherlands PO 3rd. The Ormandy impresssed me when I heard it at my brother's place a few years ago (much to my surprise, to be honest). I look forward to reacquaint myself with what I found to be a honest, beautifully crafted yet powerful reading. The Haenchen 3rd is an inknown quantity, but if it was recorded in the Concertgebouw, it cannot but flatter what is the netherlands' "second" orchestra.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: toledobass on March 23, 2008, 02:52:32 PM
I'm posting about Bruckner's 9th being played by the Toledo Symphony Orchestra this week, here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3580.msg160160.html#msg160160).

Allan
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: quintett op.57 on March 24, 2008, 04:15:08 AM
Although I'm not a believer, I've heard his 2nd mass 4 times this Easter w-end.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on March 24, 2008, 06:05:15 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on March 13, 2008, 07:14:53 AM
Yes and yes!  8) It was delivered today, so I can confirm, as is specified in the booklet, that:

Symphony No.9 (BPO) was recorded in November 1985 at the Philharmonie, Berlin.
Symphony No.8 (VPO) was recorded in November 1988 at Grosser Musikvereinsaal, Vienna.


Oh, good! I will definitely get that even though I already have the video of the 8th. I look forward to watching the video of the 9th very much - it has been 22 years, but I remember the concert as if it had been yesterday. Or let's say, the day before yesterday. Maybe I am even in the video - me and my then girlfriend (that was my first "serious" girlfriend  ;D back then, we were both 16) sat right next to the orchestra on the right side. That was a Sunday morning concert actually (I think it was 11am) and it had snowed massively the night before, I remember how we fought our way through the snow to the underground station in the morning. The video was filmed and broadcast live by the 2nd German TV station. At one point in the concert, IIRC it was in the slow movement, one fo the cameramen on the left side almost fell off the stage and made a big noise. That should actually be audible in the video!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on March 24, 2008, 04:24:32 PM
Latest listening: the 8th under Haitink, the commercial 1981 Concertgebouw recording. For some reson this had been off my radar ever since it first came out, even though the first (1969) Haitink COA has been of my favourite versions for over 30 years. Thank God for used record shops!

This is certifiably Haitink Concertgebouw, although it's hugely different from that 1969 version or the mid 90s WP one. The latter is the least interesting. The WP sound tired, or at best only mildly interested. The 1981 has pretty much the same tempi, but the inimitable playing and acoustics bring a welcome tang to the sound (brass especially). Everything sounds more 'in', from the timpani punctuations to the horn solos, to the wind chirpings or grave musings. Although they are slightly less powerful than in Vienna, the horns and trombones have a spatial presence that compensates. This time around, Haitink is not against some agogic and rythmic underlining. The first movement is the one that best responds to the added 12 minutes' playing time. It has an organic cogency that simply dispenses with any notion of 'time'. Quite unique, I say. All that being said, the magnificent playing and recording do not trump the extra zest and excitement found in the first recording (1969, not 1960 as various sources have it - the Philips back cover among others  ::)). THAT belongs to the top half-dozen. The 1981 will satisfy those who enjoy Karajan or Wand, among those of the more spacious persuasion.

I have a 2002 SD Haitink to listen to and I note that, 20 years on, he takes the scherzo a full minute faster.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ChamberNut on March 25, 2008, 08:06:59 AM
Currently reading Robert Simpson's analysis of Bruckner's symphonies in The Essence of Bruckner.

So far, after reading the analysis of the Symphonies 1 to 3, he praises Bruckner's genius in general.  At the same time, he is quite critical (perhaps even harshly so) of the 3rd Symphony.  He also describes it as the weakest of all Bruckner numbered symphonies.

On to reading about # 4.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2008, 10:08:53 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 25, 2008, 08:06:59 AM
Currently reading Robert Simpson's analysis of Bruckner's symphonies in The Essence of Bruckner.

So far, after reading the analysis of the Symphonies 1 to 3, he praises Bruckner's genius in general.  At the same time, he is quite critical (perhaps even harshly so) of the 3rd Symphony.  He also describes it as the weakest of all Bruckner numbered symphonies.

On to reading about # 4.  :)

Sarge would concur - Simpson's 'Essence of Bruckner' is essential reading, just as his book on Nielsen. Simpson has very pertinent ideas about symphonic form, with which you can agree or not. His criticism of the Third is formally correct, but to me doesn't make this work one iota less powerful... What comes across is a fine intelligence, and passion. Simpson is always a joy to read (and I admire his symphonies, too).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on March 25, 2008, 02:01:12 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 25, 2008, 08:06:59 AM
Currently reading Robert Simpson's analysis of Bruckner's symphonies in The Essence of Bruckner.

So far, after reading the analysis of the Symphonies 1 to 3, he praises Bruckner's genius in general.  At the same time, he is quite critical (perhaps even harshly so) of the 3rd Symphony.  He also describes it as the weakest of all Bruckner numbered symphonies.

On to reading about # 4.  :)

I read that book long ago, i still have it in fact, you remind me btw, that i need to return it!
and, yes, Simpson does go into detail, which seems almost too "technical" for most people. Remember he merely tries to see Bruckner's symphonies from a "composer's perspective", so he pretty much tries to be as neutral as possible and basically makes a ton of analysis of Bruckner's music. He picks passages here and there, which if you don't know music, (or have an intimate knowledge of Bruckner's symphonies), you will have no idea what he is talking about. So, this is definitely not a beginner read, if you are a beginner, you should stay away.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ChamberNut on March 26, 2008, 09:14:32 AM
Can anyone recommended great recordings of Bruckner's String Quintet?

Thank you.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on March 26, 2008, 12:52:14 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 26, 2008, 09:14:32 AM
Can anyone recommended great recordings of Bruckner's String Quintet?

Thank you.

It's not exactly overflowing with them, and AFAIK they're all good. Only really committed musicians seem to have taken it up. Go with your pocket or preference of coupling.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on March 27, 2008, 03:59:35 PM
I'm waiting for a really good orchestration of the quintet. I know it's been arranged for string orchestra, but, with Bruckner's characteristic style, I can hear which lines would go to the brass and which to the strings....
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on March 29, 2008, 09:37:26 AM
Could this Bruckner book by Derek Watsen be a good alternative for one who still cannot take too much technical details?

http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Master-Musicians-Derek-Watson/dp/0198166176/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206811182&sr=1-7

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/418DC8MH3YL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2008, 10:33:03 AM
Quote from: rubio on March 29, 2008, 09:37:26 AM
Could this Bruckner book by Derek Watsen be a good alternative for one who still cannot take too much technical details?

The Master Musicians series usually provides an excellent, and accessible, introduction, although I don't know this one. I have read a great many throughout the years.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on March 29, 2008, 12:49:11 PM
Story of my life. On Amazon US that book is $8, on UK it's £13 :P
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on March 29, 2008, 01:52:10 PM
Thank you both for the comments. The book will be ordered. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2008, 02:16:49 PM
Quote from: rubio on March 29, 2008, 01:52:10 PM
Thank you both for the comments. The book will be ordered. :)

Please tell us, after you have read it, what you think of it (and what you have learned)!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on March 29, 2008, 02:17:33 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on March 29, 2008, 02:16:49 PM
Please tell us, after you have read it, what you think about it (and what you have learned)!

Will do!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Varg on April 02, 2008, 04:33:41 PM
I saw the Karajan 9th and the Jochum 7th on youtube. They both sounds sublime, but both of them recorded those twice, and i dont know which recordings to get (i want the versions you'll hear on the links).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NZL6bNqBNwM (Jochum 7th)

The DG or the EMI/Brilliant?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fh514blhFjE (Karajan 9th)

The two DG recordings:

http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-Herbert-von-Karajan/dp/B00000E4II/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1207181815&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-Herbert-von-Karajan/dp/B00000E4II/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1207181815&sr=1-1

I know the later is from the Karajan box. Does it come with jewel cases or with "slim paper" cases?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on April 02, 2008, 05:21:11 PM
Quote from: Varg on April 02, 2008, 04:33:41 PM
I saw the Karajan 9th and the Jochum 7th on youtube. They both sounds sublime, but both of them recorded those twice, and i dont know which recordings to get (i want the versions you'll hear on the links).

far more than just twice my friend, they recorded those pieces multiple times.

Quote from: Varg on April 02, 2008, 04:33:41 PM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NZL6bNqBNwM (Jochum 7th)

The DG or the EMI/Brilliant?

Neither, instead (taken from Abruckner.com):
Altus ALT DVD 008    (the one on Youtube)
Altus CD 015/6   
Antec AM 2051   
Bells of St.Florian


as for the Karajan 9th, according to Abruckner.com it has never been released on CDs, yet.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on April 02, 2008, 07:08:18 PM
Like we discussed above, the Karajan performance of the 9th on Youtube is now available on DVD, and I will definitely get it soon.

I would be careful with recommending any of those Altus or Bells of St.Florian discs unless you actually know it - some of these discs come from, well, "unofficial" sources and sometimes sound really bad... But I wouldn't mind having that myself because I heard Jochum and the Concertgebouworkest play the 7th in Berlin during the same tour, also very powerful memories and unfortunately the only time I saw Jochum live - he passed away not long afterwards.

In the meantime, you can get either the DG recording or the one on EMI, I personally prefer the latter because it has the Staatskapelle Dresden which I prefer to the Berliner Philharmoniker, not in general, but definitely here, and as good as the BP recording is, the degree of spontaneity and freedom of the playing, and how they react to Jochum's conducting is just marvelous in this recording, actually in the whole cycle, which is why you should have the complete box, either from EMI or Brilliant. The chemistry between Jochum and the SD was great, and their unique style of playing which is both very robust and refined, very lyrical but also extremely powerful, all in the right places in the right degrees, that matches Jochum's unpretentious and direct approach to the music superbly. Plus the sound, while a little on the bright side, is better on the EMI recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on April 02, 2008, 07:26:47 PM
Two things to note:

The soundtracks on the newly-released Sony Karajan DVDs are not the same as the CD, and previous DVD, releases.

If you look it up, they've remastered them via a rather peculiar - but, I can attest, very effective - process: playing back the source tape in the original recording venues, and re-recording the result in 5.1 surround sound.


As I commented, the results are (as far as the Beethoven cycle I've listened through goes) rather excellent indeed, and not only for the "surround" factor. The sound has more presence, and feels night-infinitely more rich.

So these Bruckner performances as well should have a new "aural perspective"; at least in a way. :)


The second thing I'd like to note is that I bought all the releases in that series in advance, including the Bruckner. And I do have a competent enough 5.1 system to watch/listen to them on. Therefore, I will be getting back to you. ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on April 03, 2008, 06:06:31 AM
Quote from: Renfield on April 02, 2008, 07:26:47 PM
... they've remastered them via a rather peculiar - but, I can attest, very effective - process: playing back the source tape in the original recording venues, and re-recording the result in 5.1 surround sound.

Does this mean that the 2-channel LPCM track has also been manipulated in this way?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on April 03, 2008, 09:51:11 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on April 03, 2008, 06:06:31 AM
Does this mean that the 2-channel LPCM track has also been manipulated in this way?

Alas, I am almost certain that it has not. :(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on April 03, 2008, 04:43:12 PM
Alas? I think that would be good. That concept sounds very strange to me, playing back a recording and rerecording it, even if it is in the same venue - it could be that it really works very well, and I will find out sooner or later because I want to have these films, but I am very suspicious of that technique. It really looks like a very silly gimmick to me. The reverb information is already there on the originals, if only in "two-dimensional" form, playing that back and recording it doesn't seem to me to make any sense. That's like putting a still photo up and filming it - but it's still a still (pun!). Or rather like generating 3D material from 2D sources. I remember 2-3 years ago at a cinematech industry convention, I went to a seminar held by George Lucas and James Cameron in which they blablaed about how all the movies wil be 3D in the future and all classics will be reformatted through a new process (the name of which escapes me at the moment), and they showed extensive clips from the original Star Wars and Terminator 2 which had been "threedimensionalized" through that process. For a moment, it didn't look too bad at all, and there was some "aah" and some "ooh" but after just a short while, after the surprise effect had worn off, it started to look really bad because then you saw that the characters were all still 2D (in other words, flat like paper cut-outs), they were just on different depth planes in the image (IIRC, the process basically works by analyzing the image for outlines with different degrees of sharpness and then staggering those elements depending on how much in or out of focus they are.

OK, that doesn't have *that* much to do with sound recording, but in general, information which was there but is not stored in the recording can not be retrieved or simulated somehow. That simply doesn't work. Playing a recording back in a concert hall is already a very different kind of source from having an orchestra sit there and play. But we will see (or hear). Maybe I am totally wrong, but this kind of stuff makes me very, very sceptical. I hope they didn't mess up the recordings for some silly gimmicky effect.

Besides, whatever spatial information is there in the 2-channel recording can be underlined a little by ProLogic decoding which every home receiver has.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on April 03, 2008, 06:30:26 PM
It is a gimmick. But it's one I enjoyed, as a different (and to my ears at the very least satisfactory alternative) take on recordings I've already heard otherwise, and love. Hence the "alas", M.


Otherwise, yes, the "still image" is very much still a still. ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2008, 10:56:34 PM
Quote from: M forever on April 03, 2008, 04:43:12 PM
I remember 2-3 years ago at a cinematech industry convention, I went to a seminar held by George Lucas and James Cameron in which they blablaed about how all the movies wil be 3D in the future and all classics will be reformatted through a new process (the name of which escapes me at the moment), and they showed extensive clips from the original Star Wars and Terminator 2 which had been "threedimensionalized" through that process. For a moment, it didn't look too bad at all, and there was some "aah" and some "ooh" but after just a short while, after the surprise effect had worn off, it started to look really bad because then you saw that the characters were all still 2D (in other words, flat like paper cut-outs), they were just on different depth planes in the image (IIRC, the process basically works by analyzing the image for outlines with different degrees of sharpness and then staggering those elements depending on how much in or out of focus they are).

Very interesting!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 09, 2008, 05:22:10 PM
This week I listened to the first commercially available recording of the 6th symphony under an unknown conductor and a second rate orchestra. They are Heinrich Swoboda and the Vienna Symphony (no great shakes at the time - 1950). I was not exactly floored, but close to. This interpretation has sweep, tremendous grip and absolute trust in its chosen point of view. The sheer confidence of the reading is almost intimidating.

Despite obvious sonic limitations, I noticed many instrumental details that brought a particular light on many wind and esp. horn lines. Low strings are extremely forceful. Rarely have the first moments of the scherzo sounded so much like the beginning of the Mahler 6th. Obviously it's vice versa, but the kinship at Swoboda's extremely slow tempo and forceful accenting of the beat is unmistakable. I immediately checked the tempo indication and, lo and behold, it says "Scherzo - Nicht schnell" - not fast. At over 10 minutes there's no comparison with Jochum or Haitink who sail petulantly through this movement (under 8 minutes).

Every movement has the stamp of authority on it. The Adagio at over 21 minutes sounded not a second too long, although it's fully 6 minutes faster than Klemperer or Keilberth. Magnificent from first note to last. As I said, there are sonic limitations. The sonic image is compressed, which plays havoc with the  timpani and trumpet parts, which might as well have been omitted. Nevertheless the dynamic range is ok and the mid range has very good presence.

This is available on Berky's site (free download) and for the historically inclined I recommend it. Released on an austrian Westminster lp, where the conductor's first name is spelled Heinrich. But as the last name implies, he was czech and bios have him under  Henry Swoboda.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 09, 2008, 10:01:22 PM
I am intrigued. Where is 'Berky's site'?

Johan
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on April 09, 2008, 11:23:17 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on April 09, 2008, 10:01:22 PM
I am intrigued. Where is 'Berky's site'?

http://www.abruckner.com/ A super page :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 09, 2008, 11:29:52 PM
Quote from: Lethe on April 09, 2008, 11:23:17 PM
http://www.abruckner.com/ A super page :D

Dl'ing as I write... Thanks!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ChamberNut on April 10, 2008, 04:15:06 AM
Quote from: Lethe on April 09, 2008, 11:23:17 PM
http://www.abruckner.com/ A super page :D

Thank you!  I bookmarked this page.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on April 10, 2008, 06:39:46 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on April 09, 2008, 05:22:10 PM
This week I listened to the first commercially available recording of the 6th symphony under an unknown conductor and a second rate orchestra. They are Heinrich Swoboda and the Vienna Symphony (no great shakes at the time - 1950). I was not exactly floored, but close to. This interpretation has sweep, tremendous grip and absolute trust in its chosen point of view. The sheer confidence of the reading is almost intimidating.

The Wiener Symphoniker are not a "second rate" orchestra. They are Vienna's full-time concert orchestra (while the Philharmoniker play quite a few concerts, they are still primarily an opera orchestra) and on a good night, you can't tell them apart from the Philharmoniker. They may not always play on quite that level, but then very few orchestras in the world can and do anyway. There are many, many good musicians in Vienna and not all of them can get a position with the WP. That doesn't mean they aren't good professional musicians. Please be careful with nonsense like that. Your little reviews are thought-through and interesting to read, but hurwitzisms like that make them look silly. Especially when you go on saying how great the recording is. Recently, you wrote something similar about Nagano and how he is not a Brucknerian whom nobody has told that he could conduct Bruckner. That was a little silly and hurwitzy, too. You don't need that.
BTW, during that time period, Karajan worked very extensively with the WS, and Furtwängler conducted them often in the 20s and 30s. Later they worked with Sawallisch, Giulini, and Rozhdestvensky, among others. Hardly a second rate "line-up".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: head-case on April 10, 2008, 08:06:09 AM

I assume that the process is to use the recording of hall reverberation to supply signals for the rear surround channels and to keep the original recording more or less intact for the front channels.  That hall reverberation is sufficiently present in the originals is not clear, since in that era live recordings were typically made with a large number of unidirectional microphones placed close to the musicians, which would not pick much hall reverberation.  I would think they would have some additional microphones high above the orchestra to pick up reverberation, but maybe they were not kept separate in their master tape.   

Quote from: M forever on April 03, 2008, 04:43:12 PM
Alas? I think that would be good. That concept sounds very strange to me, playing back a recording and rerecording it, even if it is in the same venue - it could be that it really works very well, and I will find out sooner or later because I want to have these films, but I am very suspicious of that technique. It really looks like a very silly gimmick to me. The reverb information is already there on the originals, if only in "two-dimensional" form, playing that back and recording it doesn't seem to me to make any sense. That's like putting a still photo up and filming it - but it's still a still (pun!). Or rather like generating 3D material from 2D sources. I remember 2-3 years ago at a cinematech industry convention, I went to a seminar held by George Lucas and James Cameron in which they blablaed about how all the movies wil be 3D in the future and all classics will be reformatted through a new process (the name of which escapes me at the moment), and they showed extensive clips from the original Star Wars and Terminator 2 which had been "threedimensionalized" through that process. For a moment, it didn't look too bad at all, and there was some "aah" and some "ooh" but after just a short while, after the surprise effect had worn off, it started to look really bad because then you saw that the characters were all still 2D (in other words, flat like paper cut-outs), they were just on different depth planes in the image (IIRC, the process basically works by analyzing the image for outlines with different degrees of sharpness and then staggering those elements depending on how much in or out of focus they are.

OK, that doesn't have *that* much to do with sound recording, but in general, information which was there but is not stored in the recording can not be retrieved or simulated somehow. That simply doesn't work. Playing a recording back in a concert hall is already a very different kind of source from having an orchestra sit there and play. But we will see (or hear). Maybe I am totally wrong, but this kind of stuff makes me very, very sceptical. I hope they didn't mess up the recordings for some silly gimmicky effect.

Besides, whatever spatial information is there in the 2-channel recording can be underlined a little by ProLogic decoding which every home receiver has.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 10, 2008, 06:15:15 PM
M forever, I stand by what I wrote, esp. considering the context I mentioned (immediate post-war Vienna), as well as mentioning the real virtues of the playing in this particular instance (did you read that far? After all, it was only a little review, it can't have been that hard?). But then, I listened to the recording, and you obviously didn't.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on April 10, 2008, 06:40:06 PM
Quote from: M forever on April 10, 2008, 06:39:46 AM
The Wiener Symphoniker are not a "second rate" orchestra.

They could be pretty scrappy sounding in some of those 1950s recordings, though (E.g. Mahler 1 with Horenstein).  I suppose it could have been from lack of rehearsal.  You can bet that Vox and similar labels wouldn't have paid for any.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on April 10, 2008, 08:59:15 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on April 10, 2008, 06:15:15 PM
M forever, I stand by what I wrote, esp. considering the context I mentioned (immediate post-war Vienna), as well as mentioning the real virtues of the playing in this particular instance (did you read that far? After all, it was only a little review, it can't have been that hard?). But then, I listened to the recording, and you obviously didn't.

No, I wasn't, I wasn't talking about that particular recording anyway, but about the Wiener Symphoniker in general, and I was just pointing out that those hurwitzisms unnecessarily detract from the readability of your reviews.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 11, 2008, 03:52:17 AM
That's ok , point taken. Maybe 'second tier' would have been more appropriate than 'second rate'. In any case, it's too bad my writing style distracted from exploring the very real merits of this performance. In its chosen point of view, it is stunning. Free download from John Berky's Anton Bruckner site.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 11, 2008, 03:55:51 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on April 11, 2008, 03:52:17 AM
That's ok , point taken. Maybe 'second tier' would have been more appropriate than 'second rate'. In any case, it's too bad my writing style distracted from exploring the very real merits of this performance. In its chosen point of view, it is stunning. Free download from John Berky's Anton Bruckner site.

Not everybody is as sensitive to 'hurwitzisms' as M... Your message rang out loud and clear, LP. And I am glad I know this performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 11, 2008, 04:40:50 PM
Thanks, I'm glad to see the performance's merits were recognized. But I'm sincere when I say 'point taken'. There's always validity to any criticism. I admit I was taken aback by the 'hurwitzism' thing, though. I've made a point to delete Classicstoday from my favourites a long time ago, precisely because sweeping and wholesale judgments are so totally alien to my own way of conducting interpersonal relations (and a "review" is such a thing, it's never abstract or detached from the 'object' it is purporting to inform others about).

On the subject of Nagano's Bruckner though I remain firm: I've heard him twice in concert (5 and 9) and three times on records or broadcast (3, 6, and 8 ). Only his Berlin  8th has any definite point of view and comes acrosss as both a recreation of the score and an artistic statement. For the others (4 out of 5) he falls short by quite a margin.

Now, I'm just listening to some Suppé overtures performed by the LPO in 1951 and conducted by Solti (Otterhouse website (http://homepages.ipact.nl/~otterhouse/), free downloads again). For anyone interested, I heartily recommend a listen. I suspect some quite strong 'hurwitzisms' will readily come to mind... ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: head-case on April 11, 2008, 07:44:45 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on April 11, 2008, 04:40:50 PM
Now, I'm just listening to some Suppé overtures performed by the LPO in 1951 and conducted by Solti (Otterhouse website (http://homepages.ipact.nl/~otterhouse/), free downloads again). For anyone interested, I heartily recommend a listen. I suspect some quite strong 'hurwitzisms' will readily come to mind... ;)

I have that Solti/Suppe on LP, it is truly extraordinary, better even than his later stereo version with the VPO.  Shame that Decca has apparently never gone back to the master tapes to do a proper reissue of it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 12, 2008, 05:47:13 AM
In its way it is truly amazing. The orchestra play like heroes, and sound like they gobbled down speed tablets before the recording sessions to be up to Solti's speed demon conducting :o. I much prefer a more relaxed way with these works, but there's no denying the physical excitement these high octane interpretations provide. Although it was taped in 1951, the sound is quite good.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: head-case on April 12, 2008, 05:54:33 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on April 12, 2008, 05:47:13 AM
I much prefer a more relaxed way with these works, but there's no denying the physical excitement these high octane interpretations provide. Although it was taped in 1951, the sound is quite good.

They you're looking at Dutoit, who conducts the pieces like lullabies.  In my view there is no point in such an approach, since the music itself doesn't have much much intrinsic content.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 13, 2008, 08:27:21 AM
Quote from: head-case on April 12, 2008, 05:54:33 AM
They you're looking at Dutoit, who conducts the pieces like lullabies.  In my view there is no point in such an approach, since the music itself doesn't have much much intrinsic content.


??? ???

I was thinking more of the gorgeous Mehta VPO, Karajan, Paray..., all of whom show lots of verve and vigour. Excitement and energy are not synonymous with speed, a concept that still seems to elude some people...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on April 13, 2008, 08:36:42 PM
Indeed, and there is another concept that eldues a lot of people which Dutoit understands very well. It is called "style".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: head-case on April 13, 2008, 10:06:47 PM
Quote from: M forever on April 13, 2008, 08:36:42 PM
Indeed, and there is another concept that eldues a lot of people which Dutoit understands very well. It is called "style".
Which is recordings of Suppe exhibit a total lack of.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: head-case on April 13, 2008, 10:07:41 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on April 13, 2008, 08:27:21 AM
I was thinking more of the gorgeous Mehta VPO, Karajan, Paray..., all of whom show lots of verve and vigour. Excitement and energy are not synonymous with speed, a concept that still seems to elude some people...

The brilliance of Solti's recording of these pieces had very little to do with speed.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on April 14, 2008, 04:52:25 AM
Quote from: head-case on April 13, 2008, 10:06:47 PM
Which is recordings of Suppe exhibit a total lack of.


Many of your postings here show clearly that you have no idea what musical style is (or rather, what musical styles are), when it comes to both compositions and performance styles, so but I will stick with Dutoit when it comes to that question. But thanks for your contribution anyway.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: head-case on April 14, 2008, 05:37:01 AM
Quote from: M forever on April 14, 2008, 04:52:25 AM
Many of your postings here show clearly that you have no idea what musical style is (or rather, what musical styles are), when it comes to both compositions and performance styles, so but I will stick with Dutoit when it comes to that question. But thanks for your contribution anyway.

Most of your postings here show clearly that "doesn't agree with you" is equivalent to "doesn't know anything."  But thanks for your sarcastic remark.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on April 15, 2008, 07:04:34 PM
Quote from: head-case on April 14, 2008, 05:37:01 AM
Most of your postings here show clearly that "doesn't agree with you" is equivalent to "doesn't know anything."  But thanks for your sarcastic remark.


He's a hopeless case, head, save yourself some time and listen to some Bruckner instead!  ;) He might think we are worth his time (seeing as he makes sarcastic remarks to the posts of people who dont agree with him all the time), but he is definitely not worth our time!  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on April 15, 2008, 08:50:04 PM
Looks like you two found each other! Have fun in the kiddie corner! Perfect FIFTH, bring some cookies for your new friend.

Quote from: head-case on April 14, 2008, 05:37:01 AM
Most of your postings here show clearly that "doesn't agree with you" is equivalent to "doesn't know anything."

Very true, that's because most people here - like you - really have nothing of interest to say. If you want to participate in a discussion, you have to have something to say, and you have to have to be able to back up your views and arguments. Some can do that, and they can be very interesting discussion partners - especially when they disagree with me but can make points -, but you are unfortunately not one of them. Sorry!

But you can play with Perfect FIFTH while the grownups have their discussions, so don't be sad, OK?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on April 15, 2008, 09:33:51 PM
Quote from: M forever on April 15, 2008, 08:50:04 PM
Looks like you two found each other! Have fun in the kiddie corner! Perfect FIFTH, bring some cookies for your new friend.

Very true, that's because most people here - like you - really have nothing of interest to say. If you want to participate in a discussion, you have to have something to say, and you have to have to be able to back up your views and arguments. Some can do that, and they can be very interesting discussion partners - especially when they disagree with me but can make points -, but you are unfortunately not one of them. Sorry!

But you can play with Perfect FIFTH while the grownups have their discussions, so don't be sad, OK?

Ooh look who's talking! That's right, he's responding to our posts again! See, head-case? He proved me right, he really wasn't going to give up any chance to waste his time on us.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on April 15, 2008, 11:07:44 PM
Is this Haitink's 1981 recording of the Bruckner 9th? What do you think about it? I have heard his reindition of the scherzo should be quite something.

http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-9-Haitink/dp/B00000E2LS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1208329382&sr=1-1

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/02/ciu/5c/cf/c52af96642a0fe7f4ee84110._AA240_.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 15, 2008, 11:29:11 PM
Quote from: rubio on April 15, 2008, 11:07:44 PM
Is this Haitink's 1981 recording of the Bruckner 9th? What do you think about it? I have heard his reindition of the scherzo should be quite something.

http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-9-Haitink/dp/B00000E2LS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1208329382&sr=1-1

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/02/ciu/5c/cf/c52af96642a0fe7f4ee84110._AA240_.L.jpg)

Hm, I don't know, I don't know the cover. But what I DO know is that that second Haitink Ninth is one of my favourite performances - the Coda of the first movement is colossal, with two sets of timpani underpinning the iambic rhythm in the lower brass. We have had a discussion here already about which version Haitink was using, because he is not one to tamper with scores...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 16, 2008, 05:39:12 AM
Quote from: rubio on April 15, 2008, 11:07:44 PM
Is this Haitink's 1981 recording of the Bruckner 9th? What do you think about it? I have heard his reindition of the scherzo should be quite something.

http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-9-Haitink/dp/B00000E2LS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1208329382&sr=1-1

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/02/ciu/5c/cf/c52af96642a0fe7f4ee84110._AA240_.L.jpg)

Yes, that's the 1981 performance that Jezetha and I love so much.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: head-case on April 16, 2008, 05:46:39 AM
Quote from: M forever on April 15, 2008, 08:50:04 PM
Very true, that's because most people here - like you - really have nothing of interest to say.

Always a pleasure.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 16, 2008, 06:09:24 AM
I haven't heard that Haitink recording for decades, and it was on cassette. I do recall it being recorded in a much darker acoustic than the usual COA sound, which - to my ears at least - cast a gloomy atmosphere on the proceedings. It is much slower than Haitink's 1963 recording - which in turn could be described as too lightweight...  A similar evolution can be heard in his 1969 and 1981 eight. I love both, but tend to return to the dynamic, volatile first recording more often.

My Bruckner listening has come to a generalpause lately. Too much stuff to listen to, and too little time on my hands. Next in line are the Thielemann 7th and a 2002 Haitink SD 8th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 16, 2008, 06:18:54 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on April 16, 2008, 06:09:24 AM
I haven't heard that Haitink recording for decades, and it was on cassette. I do recall it being recorded in a much darker acoustic than the usual COA sound, which - to my ears at least - cast a gloomy atmosphere on the proceedings. It is much slower than Haitink's 1963 recording - which in turn could be described as too lightweight...

Your memory is in perfect shape, LP - the sound of this recording is indeed dark and heavy, but I don't think that contradicts the spirit of Bruckner's Ninth. (I don't know Haitink's first foray, btw, so I can't compare.) I also agree that the sound in this recording is different from the usual COA sound - I know the Concertgebouw acoustics from experience, and this recording surprised me too when I first heard it. I like it this way (but not for all pieces, mind you!).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on April 16, 2008, 06:56:52 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on April 15, 2008, 11:29:11 PM
Hm, I don't know, I don't know the cover. But what I DO know is that that second Haitink Ninth is one of my favourite performances - the Coda of the first movement is colossal, with two sets of timpani underpinning the iambic rhythm in the lower brass. We have had a discussion here already about which version Haitink was using, because he is not one to tamper with scores...

Are there other conductors whom use two sets of timpani in the first movement?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 16, 2008, 07:29:32 AM
Quote from: rubio on April 16, 2008, 06:56:52 AM
Are there other conductors whom use two sets of timpani in the first movement?

This is the only performance I know where that iambic rhythm I mentioned is reinforced by the timpani (it ought to be just a drum-roll, IIRC). M forever may correct me, but this use of the timpani is sui generis, and I don't know which version Haitink has used. The effect, by the way, is monumental.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on April 16, 2008, 08:26:43 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on April 16, 2008, 07:29:32 AM
This is the only performance I know where that iambic rhythm I mentioned is reinforced by the timpani (it ought to be just a drum-roll, IIRC). M forever may correct me, but this use of the timpani is sui generis, and I don't know which version Haitink has used. The effect, by the way, is monumental.

Thank you very much for your comments. I really look forward to hear it now (as I pushed the buy button... :)).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 16, 2008, 08:37:51 AM
Quote from: rubio on April 16, 2008, 08:26:43 AM
Thank you very much for your comments. I really look forward to hear it now (as I pushed the buy button... :)).

You won't regret your purchase, Rubio!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 16, 2008, 01:14:29 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on April 16, 2008, 07:29:32 AM
This is the only performance I know where that iambic rhythm I mentioned is reinforced by the timpani (it ought to be just a drum-roll, IIRC). M forever may correct me, but this use of the timpani is sui generis, and I don't know which version Haitink has used. The effect, by the way, is monumental.

  ??? Do yo mean it goes tu-DUM, tu-DUM instead of just rolling ? If that's the case, he's not alone, I've heard it elsewhere too. I'd have to check...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 16, 2008, 01:24:11 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on April 16, 2008, 01:14:29 PM
  ??? Do yo mean it goes tu-DUM, tu-DUM instead of just rolling ? If that's the case, he's not alone, I've heard it elsewhere too. I'd have to check...

Please do (tu-DUM is an iamb, indeed)! If you can find another performance with this same effect, that would be great.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 16, 2008, 05:19:46 PM
I will, but I have to go through some three dozen 9:I codas so it might take a while  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on April 16, 2008, 05:24:27 PM
In musical terms, we call that a "dotted rhythm", Jezetha  ;) I think it is somehow a Concertgebouw thing, I once read what the story behind it is, but I forgot. It may have something to do with Mengelberg. It is certainly not in the score of which there are several different critical editions, but only one actual "version" as Bruckner died during the composition of the work, so he didn't get a chance to revise it (it is not a given that he would have because he didn't revise all of his symphonies as thoroughly as some). I may have heard it somewhere else, but don't recall where...

I think that Haitink recording is quite nice but not really anything special. I wish the KCA trumpets would some day see the light and play that stuff on the right trumpets, then they might be able to actually play the low Ds with the timpani at the beginning (those are really brittle in a number of KCA recordings of the work I have heard, including an otherwise very nice live recording with Giulini from the 70s).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on April 16, 2008, 05:31:02 PM
I remember now that the timpani thing also appears on van Beinum's recordings, but I don't know if he started that or if Mengelberg did. IIRC, that detail is not like that in the Loewe edition of the 9th which was played before the original version was published and performed in the 30s. So I have no idea where it comes from.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 16, 2008, 05:32:20 PM
What trumpets are they using, and why would they keep playing on the 'wrong' instruments ?  I  read a review of a KCA recording of a Mahler symphony in which the reviewer refers to the 'infamous metal plates' used by this orchestra instead of the specified tubular bells. I'd have to check the exact quote, but I distinctly recall that as being in a Mahler symphony ( 7 or 8 ? ) and being a recurrent feature of this orchestra's playing in that work.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 16, 2008, 10:36:34 PM
Quote from: M forever on April 16, 2008, 05:24:27 PM
In musical terms, we call that a "dotted rhythm", Jezetha  ;) I think it is somehow a Concertgebouw thing, I once read what the story behind it is, but I forgot. It may have something to do with Mengelberg.

'Dotted rhythm', yes, that's the musical term, you're right. Though with the 'iambic' I wanted to specify the sort of dotted rhythm. It could also have been anapaestic or a fourth paeonic...  ;) So I should have said: iambic dotted rhythm. Hm, that sounds terrible...

Quote from: M forever on April 16, 2008, 05:31:02 PM
I remember now that the timpani thing also appears on van Beinum's recordings, but I don't know if he started that or if Mengelberg did.

Knowing Mengelberg, he could have started this. He would have known Mahler's ideas about 'improving' a score - perhaps he thought that dotted rhythm needed bringing out...

Btw, I never knew the reason for that peculiar Concertgebouw trumpet sound (which I like...)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on April 17, 2008, 12:02:36 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on April 16, 2008, 10:36:34 PM
'Dotted rhythm', yes, that's the musical term, you're right. Though with the 'iambic' I wanted to specify the sort of dotted rhythm. It could also have been anapaestic or a fourth paeonic...  ;) So I should have said: iambic dotted rhythm. Hm, that sounds terrible...

Indeed it does. It sounds like some nasty disease. The specific term for this kind of rhythm is, I believe, "double dotted", although I may be wrong as I am not completely familiar with all the English terms for all these things.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Kenneth D on April 19, 2008, 11:52:32 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on April 18, 2007, 03:03:14 PM
CDjapan has a Bruckner 4 with Kertesz/LSO. Does anyone know anything about this recording? Is it any good?
Well, let me put it this way. Kertész never made a bad recording, and a great loss when he drowned in '73.
I've listened to this recording many times and it's worth getting to know if you love this work. Also, the LSO at that time was just about untouchable on recordings.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Kenneth D on April 19, 2008, 12:14:31 PM
Quote from: Drasko on April 20, 2007, 05:41:56 AM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/6e/4c/7ccba2c008a01930c086a010._AA240_.L.jpg)

Symphony No.9, Münchner Philharmoniker, April 1938 HMV (Preiser)

Flowing, swift (very swift in Scherzo) but I don't find it rushed. Unsentimental but not cold, nonhistrionic but neither reticent, structuraly coherent reading with achieved formidable orchestral clarity for the time. Münchner Philharmoniker of '38 doesn't need cutting any slack. Sound decent for 1938, lacking the lowest of lows and having limited dynamic range but nicely detailed and with enough presence.
I quite like it (it has high hummability factor*) but probably not to everybodys taste (most?).

This is I believe the only existing Hausegger recording, of anything, pity.

* I like to sing along with Bruckner, not that I can.
Wow, I don't know this recording. Well, Hausegger was the man responsible for the original 9th coming to the fore. In '32 with the same orchestra, he performed the Löwe version and then the original, which was a success, and has been the version performed almost exclusively since. We've all got to thank this man for that. Also, he was a composer, and his Natursymphonie is coming out on cd very soon!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on April 19, 2008, 12:51:17 PM
That does look very interesting indeed, especially given that these forces premiered the original version, like you said. I am not sure if I actually have that or not  ::) it was part of an EMI set of historical Bruckner recordings but I can't remember right now if I have the set that this was in. I don't think I do, actually. I am not sure how Preiser's transfers of historical recordings are in general, though. But I found a cheap used copy of this on amazon, so I ordered it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 20, 2008, 05:13:09 AM
Quote from: Kenneth D on April 19, 2008, 12:14:31 PMHausegger...was a composer, and his Natursymphonie is coming out on cd very soon!

It's already released, at least in Germany. I bought it a few weeks ago from JPC:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/febgmc/HauseggerNat.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on April 20, 2008, 08:12:54 AM
What's the music like?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 20, 2008, 08:54:41 AM
Quote from: M forever on April 20, 2008, 08:12:54 AM
What's the music like?

Here is one, critical, review (in German):

http://www.omm.de/cds/klassik/CPO-hausegger-natursymphonie.html
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on April 20, 2008, 09:04:15 AM
That's mostly vain blablabla by one "Dr. Markus Gärtner" there, I am not interested in reading that. Probably one of those idiots who couldn't get into the music academy so they studied musicology instead. I would rather hear yours or Sarge's opinion.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 20, 2008, 09:10:17 AM
Quote from: M forever on April 20, 2008, 09:04:15 AM
That's mostly vain blablabla by one "Dr. Markus Gärtner" there, I am not interested in reading that. Probably one of those idiots who couldn't get into the music academy so they studied musicology instead. I would rather hear yours or Sarge's opinion.

Thanks for the demolition job-cum-compliment! Unfortunately I can't have an opinion. I had been looking forward to Sarge's view to see if this was a work I'd like...

We'll simply have to be patient.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 20, 2008, 12:07:42 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on April 20, 2008, 09:10:17 AM
Thanks for the demolition job-cum-compliment! Unfortunately I can't have an opinion. I had been looking forward to Sarge's view to see if this was a work I'd like...

We'll simply have to be patient.

Johan, check your mail.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on April 20, 2008, 02:52:06 PM
Don't you want to share your opinion with all of us?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on April 20, 2008, 06:14:18 PM
Quote from: Kenneth D on April 19, 2008, 11:52:32 AM
Well, let me put it this way. Kertész never made a bad recording, and a great loss when he drowned in '73.
I've listened to this recording many times and it's worth getting to know if you love this work. Also, the LSO at that time was just about untouchable on recordings.

Do you know which version of the 4 it is?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on April 21, 2008, 05:37:22 AM
According to Berky's discography, it is 1881, ed. Haas.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 26, 2008, 06:38:36 PM
http://www.abruckner.com/Downloads/downloadofthemonth/May/

Available May 1, a mystery performance of the third by "one of the big orchestras" , possibly the BPO. In any case, it seems to be the very first recording of the then newly printed Oeser version (1952).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on April 27, 2008, 12:31:02 AM
Celibidache's 8th with the MPO is beyond superb--it simply has to be heard to be believed. The rich and warm sound of the orchestra rivals that of Karajan's at his prime with the VPO, and the technique of the players are astounding. Sonically very clear and dynamic, too, and it makes this one of my desert-island recordings.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 07, 2008, 04:09:44 PM
A live recording of the 6th symphony, with the excellent NDR, Hamburg Symphony conducted by Günter Wand. From 15.05.1995, issued on RCA and Japan BMG. This is a beautifuly alert version. Completely natural pacing, with no accelerandos or slowdowns, just a single tempo for each movement. It sounds slightly brisk, but there's a tension and excitement that produces jubilation and a sense of inevitability. The orchestra is absolutely magnificent and is excellently recorded.

There are many other ways to conduct this work, and this joins my previous favourites at the top, including the redoubtably massive Kegel, the exhilaratingly punchy Bongartz, the utterly natural and gorgeously crafted Leitner (Stuttgart or Basel), the massively dramatic Keilberth, the hedonistic, de luxe WP Stein, and among the merely excellent, Haitink, Swoboda, Jochums and Lopez-Cobos. It's amazing to find so many great recordings of this symphony, probably the least recorded among numbers 3-9.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on May 08, 2008, 12:43:44 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on May 07, 2008, 04:09:44 PM
It's amazing to find so many great recordings of this symphony, probably the least recorded among numbers 3-9.

I guess some of your favourites are not so easy to find any more (like Keilberth, Kegel and Bongartz)... :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on May 08, 2008, 12:56:11 PM
I think the reason for why you find so relatively many "favorites" among the recordings of this less recorded work is that, perhaps, only the conductors who really care for the music and make an effort to understand it actually conduct and record it, while among those who do the more "popular" symphonies (e.g. #4), there may be many more who just conduct them exactly for that reason - because they are "popular".

Have you heard Masur's recording, BTW? It just occurred to me that even though I have his cycle, I have never heard the 6th from it and I would like to listen to that now. I don't think I will be able to find it though as it is still packed up in a box from my recent move... another "surprisingly" good 6th is barenboim's. I may have mentioned that here a couple of pages back. I find most of the Bruckner I have heard from Barenboim, on disc and live (I heard several of the symphonies with him in Berlin when he made the recordings for Teldec, plus a live Bruckner 8 with the CSO) uninteresting (that applies to both his CSO and BP cycles, although of the former, I only have heard 4,7,8,9), but the 6th with the BP is actually pretty good and convincing, it "makes sense".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 08, 2008, 06:44:02 PM
This is a very interesting and logical observation. I have no idea why this particular symphony should be comparatively neglected. It's the most 'classical' of the lot in its language and proportions. I would have thought it would be more palatable to first-timers, be they audiences or conductors. And yet, most of those who have recorded it are seasoned batons, and when it's played in concert it doesn't draw the same attention as the 'big' ones. A few years ago it was performed in  Montreal (Yoel Levi IIRC) and it was a big disappointment. In exactly one month I'll hear it under Myung-Whun-Chung in Amsterdam. I can't wait  ;D

I've heard a few other 6ths, but I didn't mention them because they're too far in the memory (from lp days) to make an assessment of any kind. These include the Barenboim CSO (but not the BPO), the Karajan and Klemperer NP. In my memory they're all quite good, but very different from each other. I should try to locate copies. The iconoclastic Klemperer Concertgebouw is too wild a ride to be recommended to any but the most curious, and I have issues with the Bernstein NYP (playing and interpretation).

Of the Barenboim BPO cycle I only heard the 9th. I didnt' like the sound, which I found grey and diffuse, or the interpretation, too dour for my taste. But I'm talking some 10 years back, so I might be wrong. OTOH I have his CSO 4th and 9th and consider them quite superb performances, loud brass and all. The only other I've had from the CSO cycle was the 5th (lp) and I didn't think it had much personality.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on May 08, 2008, 10:50:39 PM
Of the few 6ths I have, my favourite is Stein's (Australian Eloquence) - I'd like to hear it in restored sound. I bought the Rogner version a few months ago out of curiousity - he recorded a set in the 1970s which has largely vanished from living memory, with some justification, as it turns out. Not terrible, just ordinary, uninspired. Blah.

Oh - Eloquence have just issued Solti/VPO in the 7th and 8th, from the late 1950s. I wonder if that's worth checking out?


Quote from: M forever on May 08, 2008, 12:56:11 PM
I think the reason for why you find so relatively many "favorites" among the recordings of this less recorded work is that, perhaps, only the conductors who really care for the music and make an effort to understand it actually conduct and record it, while among those who do the more "popular" symphonies (e.g. #4), there may be many more who just conduct them exactly for that reason - because they are "popular".
For some reason, when I read this, I instantly thought of a certain curly-haired chap called Simon.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 09, 2008, 04:18:27 PM
I forgot to mention the Rögner. I think I like it better than you, but it's not of the first rank, more like second. But still eminently listenable, at least for the orchestra's sake (they really have the idiom down pat). Skrowaczewski and Tintner are ok, but not special.

Speaking of conductors who do a first class 6th, two of them also recorded other great 6ths: Leitner with the Hartmann, and Bongartz with the Mahler. The latter in particular rocks, with a mean, grim, flamboyant interpretation played to the hilt by the RSO Leipzig.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Haffner on May 09, 2008, 04:41:08 PM
I'm really grateful for the Bruckner 6th reccomendations, as I have only the Tintner. Thanks!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 09, 2008, 07:08:07 PM
Many of the versions I've mentioned are not easily available. It takes either time, money, connections or luck to get them (as has been pointed out  :D). But you can get to the heart of the matter by getting Jochum's Dresden cycle at super budget price. As a matter of principle I do not recommend cycles, but in this case the 6th is excellent, and you will get superb performances of 2, 3 and 7, as well as a very good 5 and 8. Six out of nine is the best score I can recall, with alternatives being not quite as good (Jochum DG with 1, 3, 5, 6) or pricier (Haitink with 1, 2, 3, 6 and 8). I can't recommend the Tintner as a whole, although there's no denying it has many points of interest (original versions, which means very different music in 2, 3 and 8). The Skrowaczewski seems to have been transferred to the higher end Oehms label, which prices it out of range when one considers a price/quality ratio.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on May 10, 2008, 02:44:24 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on May 09, 2008, 04:41:08 PM
I'm really grateful for the Bruckner 6th reccomendations, as I have only the Tintner. Thanks!

There is a grest 6th for free download here:

http://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/March/

Old sound, but a good quality rip.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2008, 03:00:44 AM
Quote from: Lethe on May 10, 2008, 02:44:24 AM
There is a grest 6th for free download here:

http://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/March/

Old sound, but a good quality rip.

Seconded. Excellent performance!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Haffner on May 10, 2008, 05:05:29 AM
Quote from: Lethe on May 10, 2008, 02:44:24 AM
There is a grest 6th for free download here:

http://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/March/

Old sound, but a good quality rip.


Thanks!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 10, 2008, 02:07:09 PM
The Swoboda is indeed a great performance. I don't put it on my 'top tier' roster because of technical issues (playing but esp. sound). But I can't imagine anyone listening to this not being struck by the forceful personality they give to the music. Swoboda, like Kegel, Keilberth and Bongartz tend to give it an almost godzilla-size treatment.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MN Dave on May 10, 2008, 04:07:24 PM
Thanks from me as well.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on May 10, 2008, 05:45:14 PM
Just listened to Celibidache/MPO's 4th,  :o what detailed and full sound! The coda of the finale is superbly handled, the tension inevitably built-up. Excellent weighty brass and strings. 9.5/10
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Haffner on May 11, 2008, 05:04:13 AM
Quote from: Wotan on May 10, 2008, 05:45:14 PM
Just listened to Celibidache/MPO's 4th,  :o what detailed and full sound! The coda of the finale is superbly handled, the tension inevitably built-up. Excellent weighty brass and strings. 9.5/10



I have a friend here whom is helping me check that one out, am greatly looking forward to it now thanks to you, W.!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on May 11, 2008, 11:07:51 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on May 11, 2008, 05:04:13 AM


I have a friend here whom is helping me check that one out, am greatly looking forward to it now thanks to you, W.!

Hey Andy, hope you'll like it! And if you turn out to be as obsessed with his recordings with the MPO, buy the entire Bruckner set on EMI! The 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th and 9th (which is almost every recording in the set, actually) are particularly good. You've never heard how beautifully rich and powerful an orchestral sound could be until you've heard these recordings, I kid you not.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Haffner on May 11, 2008, 11:25:57 AM
Quote from: Wotan on May 11, 2008, 11:07:51 AM
Hey Andy, hope you'll like it! And if you turn out to be as obsessed with his recordings with the MPO, buy the entire Bruckner set on EMI! The 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th and 9th (which is almost every recording in the set, actually) are particularly good. You've never heard how beautifully rich and powerful an orchestral sound could be until you've heard these recordings, I kid you not.  :)


Actually, W. my friend (only hint: his first name is George) is sending me the whole EMI caboodle, along with the Jochum for comparison. I'm even more grateful and happy now. I've heard Celibidache's 7th already, which is really good. I'm PSYCHED about hearing his Bruckner 8th and 9th in particular.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Varg on May 11, 2008, 01:27:50 PM
Quote from: Wotan on May 11, 2008, 11:07:51 AM
Hey Andy, hope you'll like it! And if you turn out to be as obsessed with his recordings with the MPO, buy the entire Bruckner set on EMI! The 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th and 9th (which is almost every recording in the set, actually) are particularly good. You've never heard how beautifully rich and powerful an orchestral sound could be until you've heard these recordings, I kid you not.  :)

Seconded!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Haffner on May 11, 2008, 01:37:18 PM
Quote from: Varg on May 11, 2008, 01:27:50 PM
Seconded!



Now I'm really PSY-YCHED.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on May 11, 2008, 03:21:21 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on May 11, 2008, 11:25:57 AM

Actually, W. my friend (only hint: his first name is George) is sending me the whole EMI caboodle, along with the Jochum for comparison. I'm even more grateful and happy now. I've heard Celibidache's 7th already, which is really good. I'm PSYCHED about hearing his Bruckner 8th and 9th in particular.

Oh man, you're in for some serious JAH-min'. Just make sure you wear an extra pair of socks when you do.  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Haffner on May 11, 2008, 04:23:40 PM
Quote from: Wotan on May 11, 2008, 03:21:21 PM
Oh man, you're in for some serious JAH-min'. Just make sure you wear an extra pair of socks when you do.  ;)


Of course.

dying laughing
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on May 12, 2008, 08:10:12 PM
This morning on my drive to work at about 8:30am they were playing Bruckner's Symphony No. 9 on the radio (I came in on the Adagio).  That was a strange drive.
I thought some of the tempo fluctuations were somewhat odd in this recording, tempo seemed to be pushed around too much, but the playing , particularly strings, was excellent.  Turned out to be Janowski with the Suisse Romande.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on May 12, 2008, 08:39:36 PM
Quote from: Daverz on May 12, 2008, 08:10:12 PM
This morning on my drive to work at about 8:30am they were playing Bruckner's Symphony No. 9 on the radio (I came in on the Adagio).  That was a strange drive.
I thought some of the tempo fluctuations were somewhat odd in this recording, tempo seemed to be pushed around too much, but the playing , particularly strings, was excellent.  Turned out to be Janowski with the Suisse Romande.
Could the "strange drive" be a result of your car's momentum of your and the groove of the music not synching together?  :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on May 12, 2008, 08:41:57 PM
^^
I was recently wondering if we should start a "Music to start your day" thread, after listening to the Shostakovich cello concertos first thing in the morning and getting into a very strange mood.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 13, 2008, 03:54:26 PM
This Suisse Romande - Janowski 9th seems to elicit mixed responses. My good friend ChooChoo finds it rather plodding and uninteresting (no tempos pushed around in his opinion). OTOH, the reviewer in ARG's latest issue recommends it without reservation. He actually seems to think very highly of the whole thing (interpretation, playing, sound).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on May 13, 2008, 04:37:36 PM
Hmmm...that sounds interesting. I didn't know of that recording. Janowski is a conductor I generally value, so I would like to hear that. I have a recording of Bruckner 4 with him and the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France which is rather good, so maybe I will even download that from amazon. Apart from single tracks, I have never done that (mostly because of the 256kbps), but it might be worth a try.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on May 22, 2008, 10:54:39 AM
Just found out that the Cleveland Orchestra's performance of Bruckner's Fifth Symphony, with Franz Welser-Möst, will be broadcast on PBS--here in New York it'll be on June 11 at 9:00 p.m.  I believe it is the same performance that made it to DVD, here (http://www.amazon.com/Symphony-Sub-Ac3-Dol-Dts/dp/B000M2EBUQ), recorded in the St. Florian Abbey in Linz, Austria in 2006 (cover below).  Although I haven't seen the DVD yet, I did hear these same forces in the same piece at Carnegie around the same time, and it was a pretty amazing performance.   

Here (http://www.pbs.org/stationfinder/stationfinder_relocalize.html) is the link to PBS's website, where you can find your local station and see when they're broadcasting it.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on May 22, 2008, 05:14:28 PM
I purchased that Janowski recording of the 9th via download and listened to it in the meantime. It is quite interesting and has many good elements, but at first and second ear, I also find it fairly odd and random in some places and respects. But there seems to be more behind what Janowski is doing than meets the ear at first (or at least, my ear), so I will revisit this recording soon and then see if I can make more sense of it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 13, 2008, 01:22:05 PM
Well, it came and went. It now exists in the memory, hoping that a recording will materialize (a forest of microphones hung from the ceiling): last June 6 Myung-Whun Chung and the Concertgebouw Orchestra played the 6th symphony  (a Messiaen work took care of the obligatory first half of the program). Pending a detailed review in The Bruckner Journal (ChooChoo was there too and will report in due course), I can attest that this was an extremely fine performance, distinguished by an original and authoritative conception of the work and put through in the best possible conditions. Suffice to say that the orchestra was simply astounding in its collective acumen and finesse. A huge dynamic level was achieved effortlessly, its impact felt in part by the body (vibrations strongly felt whenever the full orchestra was playing fff), but always falling euphoniously on the ear. Spectacular solo winds and brass contributions, an almost too assertive timpani player, and a collective sound that always blended perfectly.

Chung's conception of the work was very 'big' in I, classically conceived in II (slow in tempo but not lachrymose in expression - magnificent viola and cello playing here), too fast for my taste in III ('nicht schnell' it wasn't), and brilliantly symphonic in IV. I'm not sure which version/edition he chose, but the coda of IV didn't bring out the first movement's main theme in the usual manner. The effect was that of  a turbocharged collage rather than the grand peroration one usually hears. Very exciting, but slightly disconcerting. I sincerely hope a broadcast will appear soon, with an easily available download  :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on June 13, 2008, 01:26:36 PM
Wow, does that sound great.  PS, I have a friend from NYC who was at the same concert (I think).  He went mostly for the Messiaen, and didn't really comment on the Bruckner!

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 13, 2008, 05:08:23 PM
Heeehee ! I didn't dwell on it because I went for the Bruckner ;D, but here's what I can tell:

My first surprise was to find that the orchestra calls for a very large string section (10 db, 12 celli, etc, against 8 and 10 in the Bruckner). And yet, apart from one movement, the orchestra never produces a full range of decibels. That's ok, considering that the  dynamic range is mostly pp to f, no more. There is only one movement where the full orchestra is displayed (including a rather prominent bass drum, and an eerie effect with brushed suspended cymbals and violin glissandi). The last section is for strings alone, never rising over  a discreet dynamic level (befitting the title, Prière du Christ montant vers son Père ("Prayer of Christ ascending towards his Father"). Although the orchestral version is the original and the organ a transcription, I prefer the latter. In preparation for that concert I had listened to both versions. Messiaen's simplistic melodies, mostly unsurprising harmonies and absence of rythmic progression fail to arouse more than a respectful interest. There's no doubt that hearing it live gives it an enormous presence vs the much narrower dynamic range of a cd played at home. I don't expect this to be surpassed as a musical experience in my lifetime. And yet, the 'orchestral' Messiaen continues to elude me, either in concert or on disc  :-\.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on June 13, 2008, 06:13:30 PM
Whether you have 16-14-12-10-8 (total 60) or 18-16-14-12-10 (total 70) doesn't make any noticeable difference in sound pressure level and it doesn't really make a difference in texture either (provided the musicians always play well together which is obviously the case if they are the same). Maybe Messiaen called explicitly for these numbers (were there sections in which the strings were divided into many smaller sections, by stands).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on June 15, 2008, 01:42:05 AM
This recently released Bruckner 8 by Klemperer/Cologne RSO seems mighty interesting. It doesn't have the cuts like his later EMI recording.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Tbol8GIIL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on June 15, 2008, 02:10:45 AM
Quote from: rubio on June 15, 2008, 01:42:05 AM
This recently released Bruckner 8 by Klemperer/Cologne RSO seems mighty interesting. It doesn't have the cuts like his later EMI recording.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Tbol8GIIL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I think I posted about it in the listening thread last month or so, when I'd bought it... It's interesting indeed, a very fine Bruckner 8th; though decidedly Klempererian. Highly recommended, as far as I'm concerned! :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: 71 dB on June 15, 2008, 02:28:41 AM
Been listening to symphony 3 again (Ver. 1889/Sanderling).

Last night movement. 1
This morning movement 2

Few days later the rest.

This section deleted by moderator as it is totally there for the sake of causing trouble

GB

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Maciek on June 17, 2008, 08:56:59 AM
Quote from: M forever on June 13, 2008, 06:13:30 PM
Whether you have 16-14-12-10-8 (total 60) or 18-16-14-12-10 (total 70) doesn't make any noticeable difference in sound pressure level and it doesn't really make a difference in texture either (provided the musicians always play well together which is obviously the case if they are the same). Maybe Messiaen called explicitly for these numbers (were there sections in which the strings were divided into many smaller sections, by stands).

A note for those who missed it: the noice cancellation discussion is continued here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8064.0.html).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on June 17, 2008, 03:50:45 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 15, 2008, 02:28:41 AM
This section deleted by moderator as it is totally there for the sake of causing trouble

GB

As was my reply in which I asked 71dB to please shut up in maybe not very polite language. I can see why Mr B deleted that. So let me ask him again, this time really nicely:

Can't you please shut up and stop spamming this forum with stuff you have said hundreds (literally) of times before and which really nobody wants to hear (read)? PLEASE?

I also said that it would be nice, for Elgar's and his music's sake, if he gave people a chance to listen to Elgar's music without being reminded of him (71dB) and all the nonsense he talks about his music, especially in comparison with other music. Because that caases a nauseating effect which makes it impossible to continue to enjoy Elgar's music. Is that OK if I ask nicely to give Elgar's music a chance with all those listeners who have been put off it by 71dB?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2008, 04:35:14 PM
Quote from: M forever on June 17, 2008, 03:50:45 PM
As was my reply in which I asked 71dB to please shut up in maybe not very polite language. I can see why Mr B deleted that. So let me ask him again, this time really nicely:

Can't you please shut up and stop spamming this forum with stuff you have said hundreds (literally) of times before and which really nobody wants to hear (read)? PLEASE?

I also said that it would be nice, for Elgar's and his music's sake, if he gave people a chance to listen to Elgar's music without being reminded of him (71dB) and all the nonsense he talks about his music, especially in comparison with other music. Because that caases a nauseating effect which makes it impossible to continue to enjoy Elgar's music. Is that OK if I ask nicely to give Elgar's music a chance with all those listeners who have been put off it by 71dB?

Yes, I would like to introduce myself to more of Elgar beyond the 2 great concertos, but I likely won't do it for a long time to come now. :-\

Anyway, I do rather like Bruckner, so let's get back to him. How about that 7th symphony... :)

8)
----------------
Listening to:
London Mozart Players / Bamert  Miceal O'Rourke - Field Nocturne in F for Piano #16 (of 18)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 18, 2008, 05:37:47 PM
HERE (http://www.brucknerfreunde.at/forum/konzertkritiken/6266-bruckner-6-chung-concertgebouw-%96-amsterdam-6-6-08-english.html#post12845)'s a very detailed review of that Chung-Concertgebouw concert. I hasten to add that I'm not the one who fell asleep during the Adagio  :D. I must say that although I agree with much of ChooChoo's findings, the interpretation as a whole found more favour to my ears than to his. Where I was - and still am - more critical is precisely where he had less to carp about: a slowish adagio and a too fast scherzo. As for the rest, I only have praise for what was an extremely characterful interpretation. Not my favourite, but played so forcefully and magnificently that I could not help thinking how privileged I was to be there. I actually count myself lucky that such technical imperfections as the ensemble problems in I passed by unnoticed to my blissfully untrained ears :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on June 19, 2008, 12:06:00 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 12, 2008, 08:41:57 PM
^^
I was recently wondering if we should start a "Music to start your day" thread, after listening to the Shostakovich cello concertos first thing in the morning and getting into a very strange mood.

The beginning of the fourth movement of Bruckners 8th would get you feeling ready for anything first thing in the morning, and plenty of other Brucknerian movements.  But for something a little stranger, try waking up to Lutslawski 2 or 3?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on June 19, 2008, 06:32:04 AM
Tomorrow night I'm hearing the Bruckner Eighth, with Lorin Maazel and the NY Philharmonic.  I have no idea how the "Maazel + Brucker 8" equation will work, but I'm looking forward to it anyway, since I haven't heard it live in a long time.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 19, 2008, 06:49:57 AM
Quote from: bhodges on June 19, 2008, 06:32:04 AM
  I have no idea how the "Maazel + Brucker 8" equation will work, but I'm looking forward to it anyway, since I haven't heard it live in a long time.

--Bruce
Apparently it works pretty well here:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21MJGC4MEFL._SL500_AA180_.jpg)
but then again as they say results may vary.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on June 19, 2008, 06:56:04 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 19, 2008, 06:49:57 AM
Apparently it works pretty well here:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21MJGC4MEFL._SL500_AA180_.jpg)
but then again as they say results may vary.

Oh thanks, I hadn't seen that recording.  I don't exactly need another one  ;D but I may have to get it (probably not before tomorrow night, though).

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 19, 2008, 07:30:09 AM
Quote from: bhodges on June 19, 2008, 06:56:04 AM
Oh thanks, I hadn't seen that recording.  I don't exactly need another one  ;D but I may have to get it (probably not before tomorrow night, though).

--Bruce
I think this is the newest budget incarnation:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41J8NKNR73L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
but I am not 100% sure. But it isn't likely that Maazel would have 2 different Bruckner 8ths with the Berliners on the same label.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on June 19, 2008, 07:51:04 AM
Quote from: bhodges on June 19, 2008, 06:56:04 AM
Oh thanks, I hadn't seen that recording.  I don't exactly need another one  ;D but I may have to get it (probably not before tomorrow night, though).

--Bruce

That's actually a very good recording. I heard the concerts when they recorded that (although this isn't "live", it was recorded "in studio" in the Philharmonie in the same working phase as the concerts, probably after them) and actually didn't quite "get" Maazel's interpretation then. IIRC, I found it too "polished", "superficial" or something like that, just focused on producing nice monumental blocks of sound rather than shining a light into the inner life of the music. Which is kind of like the first impression you get from listening to this recording, but it can be heard in this recording that there is more inner musical life and a certain well sustained intensity going on under the surface than I had perceived in the concert back then. In my defence, I had heard the same symphony not too long before that concert with Giulini and Wand (though not at the same time!) and those performances were devastating experiences the memory of which still makes me shudder (in a good way) 2 decades later. So while this is not a "first" recommendation, it is a good performance and worth listening to. Plus the sound EMI achieved in the Philharmonie is very good, much better than a lot of contemporary DG recordings from the same venue. It sounds pretty much like the orchestra actually sounded in the hall at that time (in "miniature", of course).
BTW, the pictured editions are all the same recording. There is also a 7th with the same team. IIRC, they also played the 9th in concert but that wasn't recorded. Apparently the other recordings didn't sell so well.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rw1883 on June 19, 2008, 12:27:49 PM
Quote from: M forever on June 19, 2008, 07:51:04 AM
That's actually a very good recording. I heard the concerts when they recorded that (although this isn't "live", it was recorded "in studio" in the Philharmonie in the same working phase as the concerts, probably after them) and actually didn't quite "get" Maazel's interpretation then. IIRC, I found it too "polished", "superficial" or something like that, just focused on producing nice monumental blocks of sound rather than shining a light into the inner life of the music. Which is kind of like the first impression you get from listening to this recording, but it can be heard in this recording that there is more inner musical life and a certain well sustained intensity going on under the surface than I had perceived in the concert back then. In my defence, I had heard the same symphony not too long before that concert with Giulini and Wand (though not at the same time!) and those performances were devastating experiences the memory of which still makes me shudder (in a good way) 2 decades later. So while this is not a "first" recommendation, it is a good performance and worth listening to. Plus the sound EMI achieved in the Philharmonie is very good, much better than a lot of contemporary DG recordings from the same venue. It sounds pretty much like the orchestra actually sounded in the hall at that time (in "miniature", of course).
BTW, the pictured editions are all the same recording. There is also a 7th with the same team. IIRC, they also played the 9th in concert but that wasn't recorded. Apparently the other recordings didn't sell so well.


WOW!!!  The 8th is my all-time favorite symphony and two of my favorite 8th's are Giulini (1983-BBC Label), and Wand (1996-Memories).  The opportunity to hear those great Bruckner interpreters live would have been amazing.  M, would you mind describing some of the memories of those performances?  Thanks in advance...

Paul
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on June 19, 2008, 12:42:41 PM
Re the Maazel [Berlin] Bruckner 8th:

I was pleasantly surprised by how much I liked that, when I finally got the chance to listen to it a couple of weeks ago. It's quite impressive, indeed having "inner musical life and a certain well sustained intensity going on under the surface", even as far as I can tell.

It won't be replacing my Karajans, my Fürtwangler, my Klemperer or my Wands, my Giulini or my Boulez [etc.], but it is a remarkably solid recording, and about as good a first impression as Maazel could ever likely make on me.

(Alas, I don't suspect I'll find many of his recordings at this level, but you never know...)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on June 27, 2008, 02:47:39 AM
I see that Herbert Kegel's recordings of the 3rd, 4th (two versions), 7th and 9th symphony, all on ODE CLASSICS, are still available at BRO. Would you recommend any of these performances with the Leipzig Radio Orchestra?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jwinter on June 27, 2008, 06:04:54 AM
Quote from: rubio on June 27, 2008, 02:47:39 AM
I see that Herbert Kegel's recordings of the 3rd, 4th (two versions), 7th and 9th symphony, all on ODE CLASSICS, are still available at BRO. Would you recommend any of these performances with the Leipzig Radio Orchestra?

I have a couple of those.  They're certainly worth investigating at BRO's price.  The sound quality is pretty good, interpretively they are very solid, Kegel has a fine sense of the music's structure and how it should flow.  I can't say that there's anything particularly unique or distinctive about his approach, but if you're a fan of the conductor I wouldn't hesitate.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 27, 2008, 02:53:16 PM
Kegel's 6th is one I value highly. But I've never explored further, in part because many of his interpretations are available in 'early' (60s) and 'late' (70s) recordings and I have no idea which to choose - I mean, I'm not against some duplication ;D, but that would be too much of an indulgence. But he's a brucknerian, no doubt about it, and the Leipzig orchestras (Radio or Gewandhaus) are terrific bands.


edit to complete a sentence that was shortcircuited when writing.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on June 28, 2008, 05:05:06 AM
Just being released, timings look interesting:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/SBT1424.jpg)

Christoph Willibald Gluck
Iphigénie en Aulide – Overture 10.54

Anton Bruckner
Symphony No. 7 in E
I Allegro moderato 17.35
II Adagio: Sehr feierlich und sehr langsam 16.59
III Scherzo: Sehr schnell 8.58
IV Finale: Bewegt, doch nicht schnell 12.16

TT 67.16
New York Philharmonic Orchestra / Bruno Walter


QuoteThroughout his later decades, Bruno Walter (1876-1962) was considered to be one of the world's most noteworthy Brucknerians. Among his valedictory recordings his most prized are arguably those of Bruckner's Fourth, Seventh and Ninth Symphonies with the Los Angeles-based Columbia Symphony Orchestra, recorded between 1959 and 1961. Yet Walter came to conduct Bruckner relatively late in his career. His first known Bruckner performance was a 1914 performance of the Fourth. Walter admitted that he himself did not feel entirely comfortable conducting Bruckner's music until 1927, when he was over fifty years of age, as a result of enforced rest and contemplation caused by a bout of double pneumonia.

Until almost twenty years after his death, in 1962, none of the numerous surviving live Bruckner recordings had come to light. Suddenly, within a few short years, a number of live Bruckner Ninths started appearing. Six are now known, including three with the New York Philharmonic. A relatively early Bruckner Fourth (from 1940) surfaced, and a unique recording of the Bruckner Eighth (from 1941) was undoubtedly the highlight of the new discoveries. All the while, no broadcast of the Seventh could be found. This was especially unfortunate, given that Walter's tempi slowed down markedly after his heart attack in 1957.

On 27 December 1953, Columbia Records recorded Walter conducting the New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra (as it was then known) in Bruckner's Symphony No.9, a live concert that was also broadcast. The following year, on 23 December 1954, Columbia recorded the entire, non-broadcast concert, in which the Bruckner Symphony No.7 was included in the programme. The next afternoon, in another concert that was not broadcast, Columbia again recorded the exact same programme. While the 1953 Columbia recording of the Ninth has not, apparently, survived (although, fortunately, broadcast tapes do), both 1954 concerts exist in their entirety. (It is not altogether clear, however, which recording is from which concert: only the 23 December concert is mentioned in Columbia's paperwork, and the tapes are undated, simply being listed as 'A' and 'B'.)
Extract from the booklet note, Jon M. Samuels, 2008
Testament SBT1424
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on July 01, 2008, 11:39:23 AM
(http://www.piclook.net/albums/userpics/10468/normal_BRSOset1.jpg)

once in a life time opportunity

http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/1534283/?show_files=#comments
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 02, 2008, 05:47:34 AM
Quote from: Drasko on June 28, 2008, 05:05:06 AM
Just being released, timings look interesting:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/SBT1424.jpg)

Christoph Willibald Gluck
Iphigénie en Aulide – Overture 10.54

Anton Bruckner
Symphony No. 7 in E
I Allegro moderato 17.35
II Adagio: Sehr feierlich und sehr langsam 16.59
III Scherzo: Sehr schnell 8.58
IV Finale: Bewegt, doch nicht schnell 12.16

TT 67.16
New York Philharmonic Orchestra / Bruno Walter


Indeed the timing looks interesting, about 10 minutes shorter than most versions. Isn't that pretty typical of Walter though? Just look at his infamous Mahler 9th from the 30's with the Viennese.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 02, 2008, 07:38:41 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 02, 2008, 05:47:34 AM
Indeed the timing looks interesting, about 10 minutes shorter than most versions. Isn't that pretty typical of Walter though? Just look at his infamous Mahler 9th from the 30's with the Viennese.

QuoteInfamous - 1  : having a reputation of the worst kind : notoriously evil <an infamous traitor>   2  : causing or bringing infamy : disgraceful <an infamous crime>   3  : convicted of an offense bringing infamy  - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/infamous

Do you really mean that, PW  ???? I listened to it a long time ago and it seemed to me to be quite impressive, in Walter's urgent, lyrical and passionate pre-1950 way.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on July 02, 2008, 09:07:52 PM
First time I've seen that performance described as "infamous"!

I just received a cheap box of mostly historical Bruckner (Centurion label), including Die Nullte conducted by Rozhdestvensky. Early 80s analogue sound not great (detected a moment of pre-echo), but interesting performance. Compared to the only other recording I know (Skrow), Roz is more emotional, less structural. This is an advantage in the diffuse first movement and lyrical sections of the finale, but the middle movements hang together better under Skrow (who I think is quicker in these movements but slower in the outer ones). I wonder if Rozhdy's cycle will ever be reissued?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on July 02, 2008, 09:56:26 PM
Quote from: Gustav on July 01, 2008, 11:39:23 AM
(http://www.piclook.net/albums/userpics/10468/normal_BRSOset1.jpg)

once in a life time opportunity

http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/1534283/?show_files=#comments

I got this in the meantime and am sampling it here and there right now. Very interesting. My first torrrent, BTW. Thanks a lot for pointing us to that!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 03, 2008, 06:26:49 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 02, 2008, 07:38:41 PM
Do you really mean that, PW  ???? I listened to it a long time ago and it seemed to me to be quite impressive, in Walter's urgent, lyrical and passionate pre-1950 way.
Maybe I just can't get used to the final movment played at about 18 minutes where most performances take 10 minutes or so longer. I think the final Adagissimo section should really feel like at times the music just stopped, but tries to get going again, until finally stops. This recording really doesn't do it for me. I think Walter's later Columbia SO remake is much better.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: scarpia on July 03, 2008, 11:34:45 AM
Quote from: Renfield on June 19, 2008, 12:42:41 PM
(Alas, I don't suspect I'll find many of his recordings at this level, but you never know...)

If you maintain that attitude evidently you won't.  Your loss.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on July 03, 2008, 07:03:28 PM
Quote from: M forever on July 02, 2008, 09:56:26 PM
I got this in the meantime and am sampling it here and there right now. Very interesting. My first torrrent, BTW. Thanks a lot for pointing us to that!

Beware though M, those are encoded at 192kbps (and in mp3 format, which is lossy instead of loseless).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 04, 2008, 08:04:37 PM
A brief assessment of the original version of the 8th under Tintner, with the National Youth Orchestra of Canada. Recorded a few years before his Naxos Ireland recording, this one displays very different qualities and characteristics. At about 5 minutes less in overall timing (all of it in I, II and mostly IV) it's more urgent and less lyrical than the later interpretation. I particularly liked the extra tension in I and II, a quality that in IV would later be replaced by an added layer of burnished glow and orchestral heft. The NYOC play like champions (it's a live recording), but the strings sound slightly undernourished even with the original version's thinner scoring. Well recorded but at a certain distance that robs the sound of the presence  we're accustomed to from a studio effort.

In the Naxos recording's liner notes (Tintner's own) we're told frankly about the deficiencies of the original version and, after having heard the Inbal and both Tintners, I have to agree it's quite inferior to the revision. Some changes just cried to be made. The six-fold cymbal crashes at the climax of the Adagio - they just beg: "Take me away" like so many Gerontius pleas. The last chords of the coda in Tintner I and II are taken very differently - Tintner II evidently trying to reconcile the original version with the familiar crashing ending. In I (the NYOC recording) he's more honest about the text.

I'm still not sure after all these years which edition (Haas or Nowak) of the last version I own my allegiance. Most of the time the conductor and orchestra will carry my vote. Tintner makes no mystery about his own preference: Haas. Which makes me wonder: why on earth has he advocated the inferior original text ? The only version I've heard that makes sense of it not Tintner, but Weller. So, why bother ?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on July 05, 2008, 07:12:46 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 04, 2008, 08:04:37 PM
A brief assessment of the original version of the 8th under Tintner, with the National Youth Orchestra of Canada. Recorded a few years before his Naxos Ireland recording, this one displays very different qualities and characteristics. At about 5 minutes less in overall timing (all of it in I, II and mostly IV) it's more urgent and less lyrical than the later interpretation. I particularly liked the extra tension in I and II, a quality that in IV would later be replaced by an added layer of burnished glow and orchestral heft. The NYOC play like champions (it's a live recording), but the strings sound slightly undernourished even with the original version's thinner scoring. Well recorded but at a certain distance that robs the sound of the presence  we're accustomed to from a studio effort.

In the Naxos recording's liner notes (Tintner's own) we're told frankly about the deficiencies of the original version and, after having heard the Inbal and both Tintners, I have to agree it's quite inferior to the revision. Some changes just cried to be made. The six-fold cymbal crashes at the climax of the Adagio - they just beg: "Take me away" like so many Gerontius pleas. The last chords of the coda in Tintner I and II are taken very differently - Tintner II evidently trying to reconcile the original version with the familiar crashing ending. In I (the NYOC recording) he's more honest about the text.

I'm still not sure after all these years which edition (Haas or Nowak) of the last version I own my allegiance. Most of the time the conductor and orchestra will carry my vote. Tintner makes no mystery about his own preference: Haas. Which makes me wonder: why on earth has he advocated the inferior original text ? The only version I've heard that makes sense of it not Tintner, but Weller. So, why bother ?

did you download the lecture from Berky also? A very interesting discussion, perhaps we can discuss the concept of "The need to suffer" here.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on July 05, 2008, 02:09:59 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 04, 2008, 08:04:37 PM
I'm still not sure after all these years which edition (Haas or Nowak) of the last version I own my allegiance. Most of the time the conductor and orchestra will carry my vote. Tintner makes no mystery about his own preference: Haas. Which makes me wonder: why on earth has he advocated the inferior original text ? The only version I've heard that makes sense of it not Tintner, but Weller. So, why bother ?

Because it's obviously interesting to gain some insights into the development of this and other Bruckner symphonies. There is also an intermediate version of the Adagio which was only recently published and recorded (by a Japanese conductor named Naita) which is again not an alternative to the final version, but still highly interesting to listen to because we can see (hear) how Bruckner developed his material between the various versions.
BTW, there is also a recording of the theme of the Adagio by Gheorghe Zamfir, "the master of the pan flute" which can be sampled here: http://www.amazon.com/Zamfir-The-Lonely-Shepherd/dp/B000001F9H/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1215294142&sr=8-1
I am not sure what kind of insights this versions offers us though...

I once had the opportunity to hear Günter Wand's opinion about the Nowak and Haas editions of the 8th symphony when me and a few other music students went backstage after a concert and one of them asked him why he, who always conducted the final versions of the symphonies because he felt that the composer's final word on each were binding, nevertheless still favored Haas' composite edition of the 8th. Wand almost got angry at hearing the question and said that it was so obvious that the passages Haas reinserted were cut by Bruckner under pressure to make the work shorter and that there could be no question that the structure of the symphony is compromised by the cuts, so in his opinion, it was the only right choice to perform Haas' version. He also said that it was a pity that Haas' work was discredited because of his association with the Nazis (of which I hadn't been aware of and I hadn't ever heard that being held against him and his editions, but I guess after the war when Nowak took over and prepared his own, more scholarly precise editions, that may have been an issue). It would have been interesting to hear more about that from him, and he seemed to be interested to tell us more, but his wife cut the conversation short because saying that it was more important for him to get out of his wet clothes than to hold musicological lectures to students, so we had to leave.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bonehelm on July 05, 2008, 07:27:35 PM
What's with Barenboim's ending of the 8th? The last E-D-C are as freaking fast as a machine gun...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 05, 2008, 08:11:29 PM
Quote from: Gustav on July 05, 2008, 07:12:46 AM
did you download the lecture from Berky also? A very interesting discussion, perhaps we can discuss the concept of "The need to suffer" here.

Yes I did, but I skipped that. Since I didn't read From The House Of The Dead I felt I could safely pass...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 05, 2008, 08:21:37 PM
Very interesting story about Wand, M.

I'm not sure of the logic behind his (and evidently many other conductors') contention that Bruckner bowed to pressure in cutting 4 minutes out of 80... Did that make any difference in that context? What concert promoter or conductor of the time would have felt that Bruckner had 'abridged' his work? ::)

I do have the Naita disc. It's interesting strictly for the alternative Adagio - the rest is, well, japanese. Meaning no bass in the sound, no warmth in the playing, no insight into the conducting. It's efficient, brisk and dry. But I do believe the "intermediate" Adagio is a piece of real worth and could be retained as an option here and there.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on July 05, 2008, 08:57:54 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 05, 2008, 08:21:37 PM
I'm not sure of the logic behind his (and evidently many other conductors') contention that Bruckner bowed to pressure in cutting 4 minutes out of 80... Did that make any difference in that context? What concert promoter or conductor of the time would have felt that Bruckner had 'abridged' his work? ::)

I think you should give the many eminent conductors who prefer(red) the Haas version a little more credit. It may just be that they feel/felt that Haas' argumentation that the cuts are real holes in the symphony's structure is convincing for musical reasons and that they base their preference on that rather on such vague speculations why Bruckner may or may not have made the cuts (we simply don't know for sure one way or the other).

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 05, 2008, 08:21:37 PM
I do have the Naita disc. It's interesting strictly for the alternative Adagio - the rest is, well, japanese. Meaning no bass in the sound, no warmth in the playing, no insight into the conducting. It's efficient, brisk and dry. But I do believe the "intermediate" Adagio is a piece of real worth and could be retained as an option here and there.

Although probably a fair description of Naita's performance, I wouldn't generalize that so much. Japanese musicians have been very avid and enthusiastic students of "Western", especially German, music for a long time and they have always approached the objects of their studies with a lot of respect for and interest in the stylistic aspects and craftsmanship of performing this kind of music, often with rather good results which don't necessarily "lack bass" or "warmth" and I think it is also wrong to say there is a tendency towards "brisk efficiency". Actually, a lot of Japanese conductors have leaned towards following (or simply imitating?) the more "romantic" approach of "great masters" like Furtwängler and, in his different way, Karajan. Whether or not that is just superficial imitation or insightful music making has to be decided in each individual case.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on July 05, 2008, 09:27:25 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 05, 2008, 08:11:29 PM
Yes I did, but I skipped that.

It was a highly interesting lecture, your loss.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 06, 2008, 06:51:55 AM
What loss???  It's still there as track I of the first disc. I didn't feel I had an obligation to listen to it when what I wanted was listening to the symphony. Given the lecturer's premise, I feel I should only  return to it when properly informed (I suppose Janacek's opera is no substitute for the Dostoevsky novel, so that might be a while). I have to admit those introductory remarks turned me off big time, though. I wonder how many in the audience had actually read From The House Of The Dead? I find that kind of thing insufferably snobbish (THAT's my loss).

M, you're right, I generalised (sometimes I use that shortcut, but it's usually a poor decision). Also, my sentences telescoped each other (I was tired) "It's efficient, brisk and dry" is meant to describe Naito's conducting, not all japanese conductors' (Asahina is anything but that).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on July 06, 2008, 09:38:56 AM
I've always preferred the Novak editions but I am no expert (not because of Haas's links with the Nazis). One of the best concerts I ever attended was Wand's last one in London; Bruckner's 9th Symphony and that was the Haas edition I guess.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on July 06, 2008, 10:53:53 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 06, 2008, 06:51:55 AM
Given the lecturer's premise, I feel I should only  return to it when properly informed (I suppose Janacek's opera is no substitute for the Dostoevsky novel, so that might be a while). I have to admit those introductory remarks turned me off big time, though. I wonder how many in the audience had actually read From The House Of The Dead?

This is the wrong attitude, I think not too many people in the audience had read the novel. This is not a literary discussion, but a discussion on Bruckner. Dr. Tintner brought up Dostoevsky, because he had good reasons for doing so. Plus, he tells the audience what happens in the novel, so it doesn't really matter whether you have read it or not, what's important is the connection (his theory) between Bruckner and his central idea.

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 06, 2008, 06:51:55 AM
I find that kind of thing insufferably snobbish (THAT's my loss).

No, it's not. It's not snobbery, Dr.Tintner's lecture has to do with music, not literature. If you had even a little more patience, and listen through the lecture. You would've gain infinitively more than what you thought you would gain from it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on July 06, 2008, 12:43:33 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2008, 09:38:56 AM
I've always preferred the Novak editions but I am no expert (not because of Haas's links with the Nazis). One of the best concerts I ever attended was Wand's last one in London; Bruckner's 9th Symphony and that was the Haas edition I guess.

There is actually no Haas edition of the 9th. The 9th had been published in its original version by Alfred Orel in 1932 or so, the first symphony to receive that treatment and be freed of all the edits and retouches made by Schalk and Löwe and other "well meaning" friends. Haas prepared new editions of all the symphonies except 2 and 9 and his work on the 3rd was destroyed during the war. He was removed from his post after 1945 because of his association with the NSDAP and replaced with Nowak. Apart from the certain degree of "freedom" Hass allowed himself in his edition of the 8th symphony, his editions are generally very reliable and a lot of conductors, like Wand, stuck to his versions even though Nowak revised pretty much all of them (in many cases, the two editions are almost completely identical). In Wand's case, I think it is pretty safe to assume that he reviewed all available editions carefully and decided to stick with Haas because he found his versions better, not just because those were the versions he was used to. Wand was among the first to use and record the new critical editions of the Beethoven symphonies which came out in the decades after the war, discarding the old well known versions with many small errors and touchups without any hesitation. So I see his preference for the Haas editions as something of a vindication for Haas' work.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on July 06, 2008, 01:56:27 PM
Quote from: M forever on July 06, 2008, 12:43:33 PM
There is actually no Haas edition of the 9th. The 9th had been published in its original version by Alfred Orel in 1932 or so, the first symphony to receive that treatment and be freed of all the edits and retouches made by Schalk and Löwe and other "well meaning" friends. Haas prepared new editions of all the symphonies except 2 and 9 and his work on the 3rd was destroyed during the war. He was removed from his post after 1945 because of his association with the NSDAP and replaced with Nowak. Apart from the certain degree of "freedom" Hass allowed himself in his edition of the 8th symphony, his editions are generally very reliable and a lot of conductors, like Wand, stuck to his versions even though Nowak revised pretty much all of them (in many cases, the two editions are almost completely identical). In Wand's case, I think it is pretty safe to assume that he reviewed all available editions carefully and decided to stick with Haas because he found his versions better, not just because those were the versions he was used to. Wand was among the first to use and record the new critical editions of the Beethoven symphonies which came out in the decades after the war, discarding the old well known versions with many small errors and touchups without any hesitation. So I see his preference for the Haas editions as something of a vindication for Haas' work.

Thank you. It is the Novak edition of No 8 that I prefer. My brother asked me to get him wand conducting Bruckner's 8th Symphony for his birthday and wondered if there was a Wand recording of the Novak version but Wand appears to have always recorded the Haas version. one of my favourite recordings of Symphony No 8 is by Horenstein (Vox/Turnabout), which I think is Novak. I saw him do it live too in London; a legendary performance (on BBC Legends).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 06, 2008, 01:59:14 PM
Quote from: Gustav on July 06, 2008, 10:53:53 AM
This is the wrong attitude, I think not too many people in the audience had read the novel. This is not a literary discussion, but a discussion on Bruckner. Dr. Tintner brought up Dostoevsky, because he had good reasons for doing so. Plus, he tells the audience what happens in the novel, so it doesn't really matter whether you have read it or not, what's important is the connection (his theory) between Bruckner and his central idea.

No, it's not. It's not snobbery, Dr.Tintner's lecture has to do with music, not literature. If you had even a little more patience, and listen through the lecture. You would've gain infinitively more than what you thought you would gain from it.

Again, when I put the disc in the cd player it was to hear the music, not a lecture. I'm glad Dr. Tintner has some no doubt very interesting thoughts to share, but that was just not the time. I may be stubborn, but I don't see what's 'wrong' with that. I'm glad you had the patience I lacked and enjoyed it, though. I don't doubt you have gained "infinitely more" than you thought you would gain from it. As you say.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on July 06, 2008, 05:18:27 PM
With apologies for interrupting this interesting conversation on editions:


Quote from: scarpia on July 03, 2008, 11:34:45 AM
If you maintain that attitude evidently you won't.  Your loss.


Evidently? I'm afraid not. I simply suspect based on what I've heard, but I never indicated I appraise (or even sample) on suspicion.

I won't be the fool who will deny my subjectivity. Does your knowing your instinctive impulses necessarily entail your pursuing them?


On topic:

Even though I don't have (and wouldn't really grasp) the score, I'm keen on comparing a Haas and a Nowak Bruckner 8th through playing them back-to-back, one day. Any suggestions for score-faithful, "unadulterated" recorded performances of each?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on July 06, 2008, 05:33:35 PM
Most conductors who chose one or the other version didn't really "edit" them any further, so most of the versions (at least the more recent ones) should be "faithful" to the text. Particularly good versions are Wand or Karajan for Haas and Giulini, Böhm, or Harnoncourt for Nowak, among many others, of course. The discography on abruckner.com can be consulted to find out who uses which edition.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on July 07, 2008, 02:08:46 PM
Quote from: M forever on July 06, 2008, 05:33:35 PM
Most conductors who chose one or the other version didn't really "edit" them any further, so most of the versions (at least the more recent ones) should be "faithful" to the text. Particularly good versions are Wand or Karajan for Haas and Giulini, Böhm, or Harnoncourt for Nowak, among many others, of course. The discography on abruckner.com can be consulted to find out who uses which edition.

Ah, splendid; I've all of those (indeed, I love all of those) but Harnoncourt, so that makes things simpler. Thank you.

And thanks for the link, as well. It might come in handy. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on July 07, 2008, 07:50:25 PM
BTW, a new Bruckner 9 will be coming out on Sony soon, with the Staatskapelle Dresden and their new principal conductor Fabio Luisi. That is something I will be interested to hear, after all, Luisi is one of the rare conductors around these days who has done his homework and learned his craft throughly, so while the recent Strauss recordings he made in Dresden all happen on a predictably very high level but may not have the highly individual touches Sinopoli brought to his Bruckner and Strauss recordings with this orchestra, they display very solid craftsmanship and a clear concept, something not too often found these days.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on July 07, 2008, 09:32:32 PM
Quote from: M forever on July 07, 2008, 07:50:25 PM
BTW, a new Bruckner 9 will be coming out on Sony soon, with the Staatskapelle Dresden and their new principal conductor Fabio Luisi. That is something I will be interested to hear, after all, Luisi is one of the rare conductors around these days who has done his homework and learned his craft throughly, so while the recent Strauss recordings he made in Dresden all happen on a predictably very high level but may not have the highly individual touches Sinopoli brought to his Bruckner and Strauss recordings with this orchestra, they display very solid craftsmanship and a clear concept, something not too often found these days.

Seems like we'll wait and see what comes out of it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 14, 2008, 05:16:46 PM
Listened to the two Volkmar Andreae recordings of symphony no. 1 showcased as free downloads on John Berky's site. One is of the 1866-1877 Linz version (1953, Vienna Symphony Orchestra), the other is the late (1991) Vienna (1951, Austrian State Symphony Orchestra).

This was quite interesting because the same conductor played both versions, so I suppose any differences stemmed for the texts used. Well, almost. A notable difference was the quality of the orchestras used - from uneven to mediocre with the ASSO to confident and tonally assured with the VSO. The latter is also reasonably well recorded, although timpani are rather feeble.

Not for the first time I noted how useless the 1891 revision was. The clear, bold and perfectly legible text of 1866 (revised 1877) becomes slightly confused and almost hysterical at times in 1891. As if graffiti had been added. I really don't understand what some conductors can find in the 1891 Vienna version. Bruckner scholars Haas and Nowak didn't deem worthy of its predecessor either - it was edited by other hands. If only Bruckner han't lost his precious time with that revision, he might have advanced his work on the finale of the 9th... :o
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on July 29, 2008, 12:26:14 PM
Keilberth's classic Bruckner 6 and 9 will be available again in Japan 24/9 - 1000 yen per CD. Much better than those crazy ebay price these can go for.

(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BJa5nBj0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CKZAa796L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 29, 2008, 05:15:08 PM
DON'T MISS THEM !!!

Both are on the half dozen "best" roster.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Israfel the Black on August 02, 2008, 12:28:39 AM
I have been way out of the loop lately in terms of music. Can anyone recommend me some notable Bruckner recordings released in the past year or so?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on August 02, 2008, 06:33:15 AM
Quote from: Israfel the Black on August 02, 2008, 12:28:39 AM
I have been way out of the loop lately in terms of music. Can anyone recommend me some notable Bruckner recordings released in the past year or so?

Check out http://www.abruckner.com/newreleases/featurednewrelease/
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on August 02, 2008, 03:01:32 PM
Interesting to see that Profil have put all their live Wand recordings from Munich in a box. But I don't see that offered anywhere except for jpc, apparently neither amazon.com nor .de have it or maybe I am not searching right. jpc.de is a good site to search for recent releases when you type "Bruckner" in the box where it says "Suchbegriff" and then click on the red button, then in the little box "Datum" so that the arrow pointing upwards becomes black. Then the hits will be listed with the most recent ones first. There are surprisingly many new releases as well as re-releases. I thought the classical recordings market was supposed to be "dead"...

A fairly interesting recent Bruckner release I got is the 9th with OSR/Janowski, a very individual and a little quirky interpretation. I haven't made up my mind yet if I just find it interesting, or if I find it actually really good (or not).

There is also a new recording of the 9th coming out soon with SD/Luisi which could be very interesting. I haven't heard him conduct Bruckner, but the Strauss discs he has made in Dresden so far are all very good and well recorded.

Another recent 9th which I have seen discussed but not heard myself is the one with the version of the completed finale with Bosch and his orchestra in Aachen. They have actually already made recordings of about half of the symphonies.

Simone Young has been continuing her Bruckner cycle in Hamburg with recordings which all feature the first versions. I have the 2nd but I am not very enthusiastic about this recording, so I will probably not rush to check out the 3rd and 4th which have come out since then.

There is also some new (3/6) Bruckner from SWR/Norrington which could be interesting, at least.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on August 02, 2008, 03:10:48 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 02, 2008, 03:01:32 PM
Interesting to see that Profil have put all their live Wand recordings from Munich in a box. But I don't see that offered anywhere except for jpc, apparently neither amazon.com nor .de have it or maybe I am not searching right.

http://www.amazon.de/The-Munich-Recordings/dp/B0013816L0
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on August 02, 2008, 03:32:48 PM
I am interested in that Wand Munich box set. In the opinion of you more erudite Brucknerians, ought I eventually go for it?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: greg on August 02, 2008, 03:36:26 PM
Quote from: Renfield on July 07, 2008, 09:32:32 PM
Seems like we'll wait and see what comes out of it.
It'll probably be the best thing. EVER.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on August 02, 2008, 03:42:23 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on August 02, 2008, 03:36:26 PM
It'll probably be the best thing. EVER.

What do you know about Luisi that I don't!? :o


Adding to my above question, when is that Luisi/SD 9th coming out?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: greg on August 02, 2008, 03:52:37 PM
Quote from: Renfield on August 02, 2008, 03:42:23 PM
What do you know about Luisi that I don't!? :o


Adding to my above question, when is that Luisi/SD 9th coming out?
Dude, I like, totally have a feeling...........

i just know, can't explain it, i just know, man..........
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 04, 2008, 08:42:35 AM
Quote from: rubio on July 29, 2008, 12:26:14 PM
Keilberth's classic Bruckner 6 and 9 will be available again in Japan 24/9 - 1000 yen per CD. Much better than those crazy ebay price these can go for.

(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BJa5nBj0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CKZAa796L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Amazon is taking orders for them and they are coming out sometime in September according to them.

I wonder how this guy  (http://cgi.ebay.com/Joseph-Keilberth-BPO-BRUCKNER-Symphony-6-Teldec-CD_W0QQitemZ170244709772QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item170244709772&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A4%7C65%3A1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14.l1318)feels paying $40+ bucks for one of them:

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on August 04, 2008, 09:05:22 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 04, 2008, 08:42:35 AM
Amazon is taking orders for them and they are coming out sometime in September according to them.

I wonder how this guy  (http://cgi.ebay.com/Joseph-Keilberth-BPO-BRUCKNER-Symphony-6-Teldec-CD_W0QQitemZ170244709772QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item170244709772&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A4%7C65%3A1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14.l1318)feels paying $40+ bucks for one of them:



I saw this. I thought I could pick it up if it went for $10-15. But yesterday one guy payed $120 for Richter in Leipzig :o :o :o, and that one just has been released for about £10 (Parnassus) in better sound than the M&A release. I guess that guy has not picked up this news...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 04, 2008, 09:09:49 AM
Quote from: rubio on August 04, 2008, 09:05:22 AM
I saw this. I thought I could pick it up if it went for $10-15. But yesterday one guy payed $120 for Richter in Leipzig :o :o :o, and that one just has been released for about £10 (Parnassus) in better sound than the M&A release. I guess that guy has not picked up this news...
Or maybe he just doesn't peruse this forum ;)
Or maybe he HAS to have the original release with a different cover. Who knows.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 10, 2008, 06:18:58 PM
Some recent listening:

- Symphony no. 9, Concertgebouw Orchestra, Giulini. This is a live recording in good sound, dated 2/1/1978. It is rather different from both the 1976 Chicago (studio) and the later, famous Vienna version (also studio, 1988). The ninth is obviously a work the conductor cared immensely about late in his carreer. He programmed it in Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Vienna, Amsterdam and Stuttgart. Recordings of these concerts have been issued and are generally available.

I listened to it twice in as many days to confirm the opinion I initially had. Giulini's is a spacious and deeply probing vision of the score. He emphasizes its sensuousness and minimizes its dissonances. The latter are generally presented within the context of a deeply cushioned and resonant orchestral sound. Giulini's ninth is never abrasive or tormented. It is imposing yet elegant, with melos and pathos in perfect balance. It reminds me a lot of Walter's lyrical and warm Indian Summer version, but with bolder, more tragic gestures. This Amsterdam ninth is slower than the more compact and dense Chicago disc (EMI). In Amsterdam the coda of I is not the cataclysm one sometimes hears (Keilberth, Kubelik, Klemperer). He clearly saves some decibels and drama for the second half of the Adagio. The scherzo is simply perfect in its balance of grinding dissonance, bold, furious punches and broad overall tempo.  I haven't listened to the DG Vienna in at least four years, but if memory serves, he went even further in the direction of stark deliquescence (winds and strings) and growling snarls (low brass and timpani).

- Symphonies 3 and 4 from a 6-disc set devoted to some of Knappertsbusch's many available performances. He was selective, never playing symphonies 0, 1, 2 and 6, and using corrupt and long discredited versions of 4, 5 and 9. Haas had published his versions some ten, even twenty years before, and yet, as late as the early sixties he was still playing those shockingly truncated texts (4 and 5 are particularly bad in this instance).

Be that as it may, the third is a version of immense power and drama. The Bavarian RSO play superbly, with some of the most awesome, fearsome trombone playing I've heard in this work. I wonder if this "1890 Thorough revision Bruckner with Joseph and Franz Schalk Ed. Theodor Raettig" edition used retouches in the brass. Knappertsbusch' s conducting is prone to sound wilful and sometimes incoherent, especially next to the lucidity and clearcut vistas of Böhm or Kubelik. But it's also engulfing and it regularly mounts and scales the heights with unsurpassed theatricality. The finale in particular is a superb piece of conducting, one of the only times where the truncated 1890 text doesn't sound, well, truncated. It's all of a piece and culminates in a grandiose account of the coda. Recorded in 1954 in very good sound. I listened to it twice in a row. It's really a knockout, and I wish the commercial EMI release was reissued. Timings are almost identical, so presumably it should offer a bettter sounding substitute of this performance.

The fourth is magnificent in the first two movements. The ending of I is awesome in majesty and dramatic urgency. Knappertsbusch had a unique way of punching home the climaxes with liberal use of broadening, timpani swells and big, bold ritards for the money shot. In this interpretation the Berlin Philharmonic play quite well, but there are horn bloopers here and there. What rules this performance out of the running is the bizarre text of the Scherzo and the heavily cut and patched one in the Finale. In the scherzo about a third of the music is totally reworked and sounds incoherent and anticlimactic. In the Finale what music one hears is all there from the familiar Nowak or Haas editions, but senseless cuts are made to presumably give it a tidier structure. It's not as disconcerting as the Scherzo, but one has the feeling of bad edits. Again the coda of IV is brilliantly dramatic. Here the sound is obviously more ancient but still serviceable.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Gustav on August 12, 2008, 11:03:01 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 04, 2008, 08:42:35 AM
Amazon is taking orders for them and they are coming out sometime in September according to them.

I wonder how this guy  (http://cgi.ebay.com/Joseph-Keilberth-BPO-BRUCKNER-Symphony-6-Teldec-CD_W0QQitemZ170244709772QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item170244709772&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A4%7C65%3A1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14.l1318)feels paying $40+ bucks for one of them:



Don't feel too bad for this guy, i saw some guy paying 58 dollars for the same recording last year!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 12, 2008, 04:01:45 PM
Moving right along, I listened yesterday to a truly fantastic interpretation of the increasingly popular first version (1873) of the 3rd symphony. When it was first aired some 20 years ago, this was viewed as a curio not really worth exploring. Then came along a broadcast here, a recording there, that alerted serious listeners to the reality that there's so much more than meets the brucknerian ear than received opinion would leave one to believe. Whereas the 1890 Nowak was the rule some 25 years ago, it has become a minority statement these days among brucknerians. Most issues one will stumble on in 2008 is likely to be of the 1877 version or the original 1873.

Mainly, the difference is from a big, Beethoven 9-size work chockful of ideas and slightly overpadded on the seams (1873) to a slimmer, still sizeable work with some fat shed in the process (1877). OTOH Bruckner may have resented the editorial process, as he composed a silly, demential codetta for the scherzo that was appropriate as the proverbial Mona Lisa mustache. This perfectly proportioned version (if one excludes the scherzo appendage) has been rather diversely treated by conductors and orchestras over the past 40 years. Some gave it the big treatment, others seemed eager to make it a second Beethoven 7th. Consequently not coming to grips with the still discursive Finale.

Most of the recorded versions are of one of these quite different versions (once again, a Bruckner version means a text Bruckner came to approve and publish, whereas an edition is more or less a proofreading of that published text. Hence the 1873, 1877 or 1888-1890 versions in editions by Nowak, Haas, Oeser or some other Bruckner scholar. The various Loewe versions are spurious in the sense that they were published but not approved - if by inaction - by the composer.

Among the really convincing recordings/broadcasts of the 1888-1890 version figure the Böhm, Szell and Knappertsbusch, and, to  a lesser degree, the Karajan, Gielen, and Jochums. Then, going backwards, we have the Haitinks (COA and WP) and the Kubeliks, the latter's Sony recording being my favourite (the earlier Audite is more exciting but less grand, so take it from there according to your preferences). And finally, going back to the text that earned Bruckner Wagner's approval and a sniff from the snuffbox are the Norrington, Inbal, various Blomstedts and Tintner recordings. Of those I haven't heard two of the Blomstedts, but the recent (2005) concert realy from San Francisco is a thunderclap in a blue sky of a version. It's a SF concert broadcast and I can't even recall its provenance. The sound is spacious but clouds and flattens noticeably at climaxes. But, heck! what a GIGANTIC vision! Fully 15 minutes faster than Tintner's famously dreamy Naxos version, its (perceived) dynamic range and electric charge are simply awesome. As are the orchestra's incredible weigth and density of sound (I was amazed), and the conductor's supercharged dynamism. I never expected that from Blomstedt, whom I heard here in Montreal in powerful and hugely convincing but much more spacious, "traditional" interpretations of the second and fourth.

So there you have it: just when I think I've nailed Bruckner's various texts "in order", I realize that they are all consummately imagined and realized views of a  symphonic vision that never stopped to develop. Something that in reality may have only existed in his dreams, actually. This broadcast may be floating here and there on the net and I urge anyone interested in Bruckner to give it a go. So, no gold medal, but a trio of laurel crowns to Blomstedt (1873), Kubelik (1877) and Knappertsbusch (1888).

NB: listening to Gielen's solid and committed Baden-Baden u. Freiburg disc (Hänssler) does not change the portrait. Anyone who wishes Haitink had taken a dose of Viagra will find this immensely satisfying. I did. But as of now I'll go for something kinkier.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on August 12, 2008, 04:20:26 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 12, 2008, 04:01:45 PM
Mainly, the difference is from a big, Beethoven 9-size work chockful of ideas and slightly overpadded on the seams (1873) to a slimmer, still sizeable work with some fat shed in the process (1877). OTOH Bruckner may have resented the editorial process, as he composed a silly, demential codetta for the scherzo that was appropriate as the proverbial Mona Lisa mustache.

  :'( M likes the coda to the scherzo.

Have you heard Harnoncourt's and Sinopoli's versions (both at, incidentally, the 1877 version)?


Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 12, 2008, 04:01:45 PM
Of those I haven't heard two of the Blomstedts, but the recent (2005) concert realy from San Francisco is a thunderclap in a blue sky of a version. It's a SF concert broadcast and I can't even recall its provenance.

M also has a live recording of the 3rd with Blomstedt and the Gewandhausorchester.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 12, 2008, 04:58:21 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 12, 2008, 04:20:26 PM
  :'( M likes the coda to the scherzo.

Have you heard Harnoncourt's and Sinopoli's versions (both at, incidentally, the 1877 version)?

Yes, both. I like Sinopoli's but found it rather severe and massive. Lacking volatility, which I think should befit a d minor work (for no good reason, I have to admit. I guess it's a 'mood' thing). Both alas appended the coda to the scherzo.  Funny in a Road Runner way, but doesn't it sound like the composer  had a fit of the tarentella? The same effect is achieved more naturally in the scherzo of the first symphony - a sudden shift of key and tempo. I have heard a good dozen more versions but not all make it to the finish, even if they made the qualifying rounds.

M also has a live recording of the 3rd with Blomstedt and the Gewandhausorchester.  :)

Really? How interesting! ;D


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on August 12, 2008, 07:31:26 PM
No, seriously. I have a whole box with live recordings of Blomstedt and the GOL which came out in Germany a few years ago. It includes this very nice Bruckner 3. Unfortunately, I don't have access to the CDs right now (yes, most of my stuff is still in moving boxes!), otherwise I could upload a sample or actually the whole recording. It's kind of "public domain", I guess, since it's taken from a MDR broadcast.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: sound67 on August 13, 2008, 05:34:32 AM
It cannot be in the public domain.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 13, 2008, 05:36:29 AM
Well, if ever you get it to the light of day it would be a very nice addition. I love Blomstedt's Bruckner (his SD 7th on Denon is my favourite).

Another listen to the Gielen 3rd reinforces the very positive impression this disc gives. As good a rec as any for the 1877 version - or the third symphony's if you happen to think the 1877 is the "best" of all extant versions. The SWF orchestra is superb and they play in a hall that flatters their already excellent corporate sound - probably the Hans Rosbaud Studio. Gielen is a non-interventionist kind of dirigent, but he shapes the work with a sure hand. Each movement has a clear sense of direction. In a sense it's the opposite of Knappertsbusch's way. One can balance the strong safety and logic of one against the sense of discovery and danger of the other. Along the lines of Gielen one could name Böhm and Szell (1888 version), whereas Jochum veers in the other direction, although not so extreme. Midway sits (or stands) Kubelik with the BRSO.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on August 13, 2008, 02:07:40 PM
Have you heard Dohnányi's recording of the 3rd (Cleveland)?

How did you like Norrington's?

Quote from: sound67 on August 13, 2008, 05:34:32 AM
It cannot be in the public domain.

One of your typical strange posts in which you just disagree but don't give any information. If you know what the situation is here, why don't you let us know? I am sure I am not the only one who would like to know.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on August 13, 2008, 09:30:44 PM

(At the risk of sounding like a fool...)

The Big Tune of the 3rd sounds quite Wagnerian. Is it from Wagner?

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 14, 2008, 06:00:22 AM
Quote
The Big Tune of the 3rd sounds quite Wagnerian. Is it from Wagner?
The Big Tune ? If you refer to the main theme first enuciated on the trumpet at the outset of the first movement, it's by Bruckner. But Wagner, who was presented with the original score loved it very much indeed: he nicknamed the composer "Bruckner the trumpet". Here's a Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._3_(Bruckner)) article that describes the work and its circumstances. Not nearly detailed enough, but a quick read. There are actual Wagner quotes in the slow movement, but only in the original version (1873). Bruckner reworked that movement extensively and in the process eliminated them. Apparently there are other Wagner quotes in the 1873 first movement, but I haven't detected them.

QuoteHave you heard Dohnányi's recording of the 3rd (Cleveland)?

How did you like Norrington's?
I did not hear the Norrington version adequately (I heard a portion on the radio but can't form an opinion based on that. Going back to an earlier post I see I may have left the impression I had heard it. I did not). If you recommend it I'll certainly give it a try, since it's easily accessible in mp3 format and I really like this orchestra. I have the Dohnanyi, but honestly can't remember much of it. This is usually a 'neutral' sign for me: didn't push any particular buttons one way or another. Generally speaking I have never 'clicked' with any Dohnanyi recording I've had: Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Bruckner, Wagner. But it's there on the shelf, so I might give it another go. 

The ones I have or had are:

- Haitink (2)
- Jochum (2)
- Karajan
- Böhm
- Kubelik (3)
- Knappertsbusch BRSO
- Sinopoli
- Szell (2)
- Rozhdestvensky
- Kegel
- Celibidache (EMI)
- Haenchen
- Matacic
- Gielen
- Tintner

I also heard once but never owned Harnoncourt, Schuricht, Wildner and Vänskä. I may be forgetting one or two
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on August 14, 2008, 06:16:07 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 14, 2008, 06:00:22 AM
The Big Tune ? If you refer to the main theme first enuciated on the trumpet at the outset of the first movement, it's by Bruckner.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on August 14, 2008, 07:47:09 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 14, 2008, 06:00:22 AM
I did not hear the Norrington version adequately (I heard a portion on the radio but can't form an opinion based on that. Going back to an earlier post I see I may have left the impression I had heard it. I did not). If you recommend it I'll certainly give it a try, since it's easily accessible in mp3 format and I really like this orchestra.

There are actually two different recordings, one with the LCP and one with the RSO Stuttgart. I have not heard the latter, but I do own the former, and even though I haven't listened to it in many moons, I distinctly remember that I found it quite interesting.

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 14, 2008, 06:00:22 AM
The ones I have or had are:

- Haitink (2)
- Jochum (2)
- Karajan
- Böhm
- Kubelik (3)
- Knappertsbusch BRSO
- Sinopoli
- Szell (2)
- Rozhdestvensky
- Kegel
- Celibidache (EMI)
- Haenchen
- Matacic
- Gielen
- Tintner

Uh...no Wand? Hello?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 15, 2008, 12:21:25 AM
Quote from: M forever on August 14, 2008, 07:47:09 PM
Uh...no Wand? Hello?

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 14, 2008, 06:00:22 AM
I may be forgetting one or two
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 15, 2008, 06:25:35 AM
Record collecting is as much a question of chance as of design. I never buy full price. Whatever ends on my shelves is obtained from all kinds of sources at a deep discount (BRO being a choice source). I've never come across Wand's Cologne or NDR 3rd. Wand didn't like that work very much - don't ask me to quote, but I read that in a review. He only recorded it twice, recordings that have been available now and then, but sporadically. I have never actually seen them in the record store or in the second hand shops. And on internet it's generally quite expensive (14-16 euros, a ridiculous price for a 20 year old recording). I have his NDR 5, 8 and 9 (two of them). I've heard his Berlin 5 and 9 and find them distinctly inferior. I'm not lost in admiration for his Berlin 4th either.

The best for me (as a private collector) would be to get the whole Cologne set at a reasonable price. But I don't set my hopes too high. BMG is not known for cheap reissues. Thanks in advance to the zealous googler who will find it for me at less than 50$ - 40$ (the exchange rate has gone up precipitously in past few weeks :P).

One of those I *knew* I had forgotten is the Teldec Inbal. He seems to have stuck to the 1873 version. Conductor (and the same orchestra) came to have greater confidence and sense of persuasion, witness a broadcast I heard lat year. Absolutely tremendous, if without the utter confidence and power of Blomstedt.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 15, 2008, 08:07:48 PM
Hartmut Haenchen and the Netherlands Philharmonic in the 1889 verison of the third. This is an ultra cheap release on Laser Light. The Netherlands Phil is a very good orchestra (clean and powerful brass, agile and weighty strings and firm timpani - I just realise I can't remember the winds at all: I suppose they're OK. Unless I'm mistaken, their roster hail from the greater Amstrerdam area and they play/record in that city's famed Concertgebouw. It certainly  sounds like a very good band playing in a great hall in that cheapo release. Maestro Haenchen and his Netherlanders have recorded a few Bruckner symphones (3, 7 and 9) and from the evidence at hand, they do a very convincing job. I wouldn't say there's a lot of 'face' to this reading, but certainly more than can be gleaned form glitzier teams such as Nagano/Berlin RSO or Barenboim/Berlin PO.

The utter naturalness of pacing is what distinguished this set. Timings for this disc are almost identical to the famed Böhm WP or Wand recordings (I didn't hear the latter, but both are praised for the natural breathing of their Bruckner interpretations - something Jochum and Karajan discovered only late in their life). It could be taken as just another statistic but IMHO it's not. An abiding characteristic of really great 3rds is the tempo relationship between the first and second movement: leisurely, large, imposing and firm in the first movement (emphasis on the downbeats), ethereal, flowing, tender and sad in the second (many musical phrases emphasizing a sense of longing, translated by upward intervals). The scherzo is pretty much the same across the board - Haenchen is on the faster side - whereas in the finale, tempo relationships can be all over the place. Again, Haenchen is on the fast side: slower than Jochum, but faster than Böhm or Celibidache.

Altogether, a thoroughly professional reading, very musical and unearthing most of the 1889 version's qualities: uprightness, optimism and tidiness.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on August 17, 2008, 05:43:18 PM
 
Lilas, what is this BRO to which you refer?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jwinter on August 17, 2008, 06:53:41 PM
Berkshire Record Outlet (http://www.broinc.com/)   :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 17, 2008, 07:01:12 PM
Quote from: jwinter on August 17, 2008, 06:53:41 PM
Berkshire Record Outlet (http://www.broinc.com/)   :)
AKA your source for pirated recordings.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 17, 2008, 07:22:09 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 17, 2008, 07:01:12 PM
AKA your source for pirated recordings.

No, PW.

BRO is where classical/jazz/etc labels send their overstock and/or deleted items to be remaindered.

Record labels SEND CDs there.

BRO has been in business for years and has served the record community well. To our gain.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 18, 2008, 03:43:36 PM
Another listen to the 3rd symphony in Gielen's  SWF version. Just a word to restate my huge admiration for that team of conductor, orchestra and label (and its engineering). Although I see the third differently, Gielen is absolutely convincing in his chosen POV and the orchestra deliver magnificently. What a knockout brass section! So far I'd rate Gielen's 3, 5 and 7 in the top echelon. Along with half a dozen others - its crowded up there!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 24, 2008, 04:54:03 PM
Another listen to the Giulini VPO recording of the 9th symphony. Every second year or so I listen to this (had it for almost 20 years now). Once again I put it back on the shelf knowing I've not had a great listening experience. Among the three Bruckner 9ths I have with Giullini, this is the most awesomely played, Dynasty-like version. I know I'll be lambasted and crucified for saying this (ask me if I care), but I believe Giulini at that stage of his carreer was, like Karajan and Celibidache, intent on making every last record his testament on a work. Karajan managed to infuse some real pain and mental ambiguity into his interpretaiitons, but Giulini is convinced he has attained the Grail. His version has little life in it. Maybe a lot of afterlife (admittedly very appropriate), but no anguish, no searing doubt-ridden, remorse-laden, hand-wringing strife. Not that it's any less good for that. It's his chosen point of view and he puts it acrosss magnificently. His is more of a Brünnhilde Immolation Scene than Siegfried Death. Past tragedies reflected at the end of a long life. A beautiful, powerful and imposing panoramic view of ein heldenleben. Of its chosen point of view it is better than Celibidache Munich and Bernstein VPO (more cohesive and better put across). Bu I hear different things in this work. Giulini had a more balanced, 'central' view of the work when conducting it in Amsterdam and Chicago. I detect a penchant for the afterlife aspects of the work already, but I think it covers more of the 9th's huge vistas than this swan song Vienna recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on August 24, 2008, 04:58:05 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 24, 2008, 04:54:03 PM
I know I'll be lambasted and crucified for saying this (ask me if I care)

Do you care?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Haffner on September 01, 2008, 04:08:03 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 24, 2008, 04:54:03 PM
Another listen to the Giulini VPO recording of the 9th symphony. Every second year or so I listen to this (had it for almost 20 years now). Once again I put it back on the shelf knowing I've not had a great listening experience. Among the three Bruckner 9ths I have with Giullini, this is the most awesomely played, Dynasty-like version. I know I'll be lambasted and crucified for saying this (ask me if I care), but I believe Giulini at that stage of his carreer was, like Karajan and Celibidache, intent on making every last record his testament on a work. Karajan managed to infuse some real pain and mental ambiguity into his interpretaiitons, but Giulini is convinced he has attained the Grail. His version has little life in it. Maybe a lot of afterlife (admittedly very appropriate), but no anguish, no searing doubt-ridden, remorse-laden, hand-wringing strife. Not that it's any less good for that. It's his chosen point of view and he puts it acrosss magnificently. His is more of a Brünnhilde Immolation Scene than Siegfried Death. Past tragedies reflected at the end of a long life. A beautiful, powerful and imposing panoramic view of ein heldenleben. Of its chosen point of view it is better than Celibidache Munich and Bernstein VPO (more cohesive and better put across). Bu I hear different things in this work. Giulini had a more balanced, 'central' view of the work when conducting it in Amsterdam and Chicago. I detect a penchant for the afterlife aspects of the work already, but I think it covers more of the 9th's huge vistas than this swan song Vienna recording.



I'm more and more interested in the Giulini 9th. I own (and greatly enjoy) the Karajan/BPO recording, as well as the DVD, and the (extremely interesting) Celibidache. Of ocurse, reading how you wrote your thoughts on it increases my interest. The Bruckner 9th is (along with the 7th) my favorite Symphony. I still wonder whether it really might have been best left unfinished...the way that Adagio ends.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ChamberNut on September 03, 2008, 09:14:12 AM
Perhaps my listening for tomorrow (September 4th) will be dedicated to some Bruckner, since it's his birthday.

At least a few of his symphonies, and the string quintet.  0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Haffner on September 03, 2008, 10:02:51 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 03, 2008, 09:14:12 AM
Perhaps my listening for tomorrow (September 4th) will be dedicated to some Bruckner, since it's his birthday.

At least a few of his symphonies, and the string quintet.  0:)

I still haven't heard the String Quintet yet, so I'm looking forward to your reccomendations of course!


I'm pretty fanatical about his Symphonies by now.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ChamberNut on September 03, 2008, 10:16:35 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 03, 2008, 10:02:51 AM
I still haven't heard the String Quintet yet, so I'm looking forward to your reccomendations of course!

The only one I've heard, which is the one I have, is the Raphael Quartet (Globe) recording.

Fine Arts Quartet is supposed to be recording it on Naxos.  It was originally slated to be released in August 2008, but I don't think it has been released yet.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Haffner on September 03, 2008, 10:18:24 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 03, 2008, 10:16:35 AM
The only one I've heard, which is the one I have, is the Raphael Quartet (Globe) recording.

Fine Arts Quartet is supposed to be recording it on Naxos.  It was originally slated to be released in August 2008, but I don't think it has been released yet.





Thank you!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 30, 2008, 03:16:47 PM
Wonders never cease ! Check this announcement from Bruckner hunter emeritus John berky:
Quote
We are happy to announce a unique and extraordinary addition to the Bruckner catalog! Thomas Mandel and his Temporary Art Orchestra have created a full-length Jazz improvisation of the Bruckner Symphony No. 5. The performance was recorded at St. Florian in August of 2007 and was performed again (but not exactly the same!!) at the Brucknerhaus in Linz as part of the 2008 Brucknerfest. The ensemble consists of a saxaphone, piano, guitar, string quintet, percussion and synthesizer. For those who know and love the Bruckner 5th, there is much to marvel at in this inventive performance.

SW 010296-2
81:30 - 27:49 23:23 10:11 20:12

Hmmm... I wonder  ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 30, 2008, 03:32:38 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 30, 2008, 03:16:47 PM
Wonders never cease ! Check this announcement from Bruckner hunter emeritus John berky:
Hmmm... I wonder  ::)


Bach survives jazzification. I bet Bruckner does too. I'd like to hear it. Does Berky say how it can be obtained? I just did a search and could find nothing at my usual web stores.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 30, 2008, 03:39:15 PM
QuoteAvailable by contacting Thomas Mandel at www.thomasmandel.at

God knows how much it costs, considering its length exceeds the one disc capacity ???. But I'm interested too >:D.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 30, 2008, 03:45:31 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 30, 2008, 03:39:15 PM
God knows how much it costs, considering its length exceeds the one disc capacity ???. But I'm interested too >:D.

Thanks. I'll check it out.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on September 30, 2008, 05:01:02 PM
Does anyone have any experience with Jaap van Zweden in Bruckner? I hear people love him in Dallas. He's substituting for Chailly (who cancelled due to a heart checkup) here at the CSO next week. I'm debating whether to go or exchange my subsciption tickets for something else.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 01, 2008, 07:30:25 PM
Here's an extract from a Bruckner Journal review that appeared this week:
QuoteRecently I was comparing Sevenths from Nézet-Séguin and that other "Young Contender",
Jaap Van Zweden – an exercise which this week I have been able to repeat with Ninths. Van
Zweden's Ninth falls into the category that I call "fine, but" – meaning, it's fine – as far as it
goes – but not in any major way exceptional (though better than his Seventh.) Very likely
you already have a number of recordings which reveal more and satisfy more.
.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on October 02, 2008, 04:12:52 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 01, 2008, 07:30:25 PM
Here's an extract from a Bruckner Journal review that appeared this week: .

Thanks, but I'm more interested in hearing from someone who's heard him live. Some people don't come across on recordings the same way as they do in the concert hall.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 04, 2008, 06:09:59 AM
As the quote I posted hinted at, the new Nézet-Séguin 9th has come out on the ATMA label. I've read half a dozen reviews and all but one are extremely favourable. One has reservations about the sound, which is found very fine by the other reviewers. A few of them specifically point to the Scherzo as the high point of this reading.
                                                                  (http://www.sa-cd.net/covers/5459.jpg)

I was at the concert this has been taped at (with presumably some touch up sessions, as the jacket notes indicate more than just that date). It's a grand, imposing, warm reading, with much inner tension and variety of expression. More often than not big-boned readings that clock in at 65-68 minutes are rather lumbering of gait and dour of expression, but that is not the case here. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on October 04, 2008, 12:37:11 PM
On the website of this orchestra, it only lists 56 or so members. They have about half of the string section needed for this kind of music, so I am wondering if they call in dozens of extras for this kind of performance? Or do they play with that small string section and "make up" for it by playing and recording in reverberant "churchy" acoustics and by messing around with the levels during the mixing? In any case, I heard the Bruckner 7 which is OK but overall pretty mediocre and very incoherent and an album with La Mer and other pieces which is less than mediocre so I am really not curious about this release. It just takes more time than a 32-year old has had to really get into this music and develop an interpretation based on "understanding" the music and "making sense" of it rather than on imitating the gestus and choreography of more experienced and accomplished conductors.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 04, 2008, 04:27:07 PM
They were 82 for this concert/recording, as can easily be found out on the net. There's a strong contingent of professional or semi-professional 'extras' in the area. Same thing with the MSO when they perform a big Mahler symphony. I don't think that's an unfamilar practice - haven't you ever been hired as an extra?

I attended the concert and can attest the volume was almost overwhelming at times, so I don't think any 'messing around' was needed. Too bad you don't like what they're doing. But you're entitled to your (minority) opinion, as everybody is on this forum. I do wonder about your judgment when in the same breath you say a performance is "OK" but at the same time "pretty mediocre and very incoherent". You're much more tolerant than I about what is "OK".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on October 04, 2008, 05:24:51 PM
I think it's pretty obvious that by "OK" I meant that it is competently played without any major complaints about the technical execution, but that it is nothing special in any respect. I don't think there is any need to start splitting hairs about word definitions here.
It is not untypical at all for orchestras to call in freelance players to boost their numbers a little or as replacement for sick players etc, but for a rather small orchestra to call in dozens of players is a little unusual. The OSM for instance could play this symphony with just a few extra horn players.
In any case whatever my ("minority") opinion is, you are also entitled to your (much less informed than mine) opinion, but I think it is obvious that a little local pride is what clouds your otherwise quite critical judgment here.
I thought you were already in a different place with your Bruckner listening. It should be obvious to you that what this young man is doing here may be superficially quite "nice" but that there is no depth at all to it. Bruckner is much more than nice melodies with a little accompaniment. The relationships between all the elements are much more complex than what he is able to show here. Somehow, on that superficial level, the music "plays itself" quite well to a certain degree but I think it is very telling that his La Mer which is a piece with more detail complexity and less horizontal continuity, falls apart as much as it does in his recording.
Really, there are so many recordings by much better orchestras and conductors of these pieces, I don't see the need for this stuff at all.
Which is a pity because I like the shiny, bright sound the local players make there. I always wanted to hear some Bruckner from the OSM and this is obviously close in sound esthetics to that orchestra. I guess there must be at least some recent live OSM recordings of Bruckner floating around, but then again, according to you Kent Nagano has no business conducting Bruckner or however you put it. Are there some recordings of Bruckner symphonies with Paul Decker?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 04, 2008, 06:44:28 PM
There's a commercial Barcelona recording of the 4th under Decker (during his tenure as MD) - I have it and like it a lot - as well as CBC broadcasts of him conducting symphonies 4, 7 and 9. They shouldn't be difficult to find.

This post of yours was interesting inasmuch as it it seemed to be about a disc you knew. But you don't. I didn't recognize anything I wrote or that was quoted in the reviews you obvioulsy didn't read when you mentioned "Bruckner is much more than nice melodies with a little accompaniment. The relationships between all the elements are much more complex than what he is able to show here".Somehow, on that superficial level, the music "plays itself" quite well to a certain degree".  How would you know- you didn't listen to the disc. Using 'guilt by association' as a way of forming an opinion is intellectually feeble. Not better than 'local pride' I'm afraid.

You can do much better (provided you know what you're talking about).  But then again you see "no need for this stuff at all", so obviously we won't discuss it again.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: imperfection on October 04, 2008, 07:14:54 PM
Quote from: M forever on October 04, 2008, 05:24:51 PM
I think it's pretty obvious that by "OK" I meant that it is competently played without any major complaints about the technical execution, but that it is nothing special in any respect. I don't think there is any need to start splitting hairs about word definitions here.
It is not untypical at all for orchestras to call in freelance players to boost their numbers a little or as replacement for sick players etc, but for a rather small orchestra to call in dozens of players is a little unusual. The OSM for instance could play this symphony with just a few extra horn players.
In any case whatever my ("minority") opinion is, you are also entitled to your (much less informed than mine) opinion, but I think it is obvious that a little local pride is what clouds your otherwise quite critical judgment here.
I thought you were already in a different place with your Bruckner listening. It should be obvious to you that what this young man is doing here may be superficially quite "nice" but that there is no depth at all to it. Bruckner is much more than nice melodies with a little accompaniment. The relationships between all the elements are much more complex than what he is able to show here. Somehow, on that superficial level, the music "plays itself" quite well to a certain degree but I think it is very telling that his La Mer which is a piece with more detail complexity and less horizontal continuity, falls apart as much as it does in his recording.
Really, there are so many recordings by much better orchestras and conductors of these pieces, I don't see the need for this stuff at all.
Which is a pity because I like the shiny, bright sound the local players make there. I always wanted to hear some Bruckner from the OSM and this is obviously close in sound esthetics to that orchestra. I guess there must be at least some recent live OSM recordings of Bruckner floating around, but then again, according to you Kent Nagano has no business conducting Bruckner or however you put it. Are there some recordings of Bruckner symphonies with Paul Decker?

Can you please cite specific examples as to how the performance lacks depth? Explaining the playing and reading of the score, for example. I want to know how you can tell if a performance is only "superficially nice" or deep, rich in detail.

An example would be like this:

"Yannick's Brucker 9th is really incoherent because the conductor does not balance the shading of dynamics--for example, in the exposition of the first movement, the woodwinds play in octaves but the flute has the main theme so the clarinets and oboes are dampened a bit to give way to the melody. That was well done, however, in the exposition repeat, the dynamic level of the clarinets and oboes are, for some weird reason, raised to that of the flutes', thus the main theme is muddy and unclear. Yannick did it right the first time but not the second time around, so this performance is incoherent."

Of course, that is just an example of what I would like to read from you (the woodwind parts are obviously made up), seeing as you are knowledgeable when it comes to judging an orchestral performance.

Thanks for taking your time to explain things to us!  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on October 04, 2008, 08:55:46 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 04, 2008, 06:44:28 PM
This post of yours was interesting inasmuch as it it seemed to be about a disc you knew. But you don't. I didn't recognize anything I wrote or that was quoted in the reviews you obvioulsy didn't read when you mentioned "Bruckner is much more than nice melodies with a little accompaniment. The relationships between all the elements are much more complex than what he is able to show here".Somehow, on that superficial level, the music "plays itself" quite well to a certain degree".  How would you know- you didn't listen to the disc.

This post is so *** and insulting that I should just ignore it, but unlike you, I actually respect the at times very interesting discussions we have had in the past - I should actually quote from the PMs you sent me thanking me for explaining what consists "idiomatic" playing of this kind of repertoire, but PMs are private so I will refrain from that even though it would show how silly you behave here now, very obviously because your local pride is hurt simply because these recordings by this not particularly distinguished orchestra and relatively inexperienced conductor who is clearly out of his depth in this repertoire haven't impressed me at all so far.
Sorry, but you can't blame for having heard so much better performances of this music. I do have the Debussy/Britten disc (as download) and listened to the Bruckner 7 at a friend's place who is a completely insane collector especially of Bruckner recordings who has to have everything, but he wasn't positively impressed by this 7th either.
I have even downloaded the 9th symphony from amazon in the meantime because I always want to stay open and curious but I think it is obvious that there is no point in discussing that with you.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 05, 2008, 07:52:39 AM
Quote from: M forever on October 04, 2008, 08:55:46 PM
I have even downloaded the 9th symphony from amazon in the meantime because I always want to stay open and curious but I think it is obvious that there is no point in discussing that with you.

Excellent. I'll be interested to read your informed review.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: M forever on October 05, 2008, 12:24:42 PM
But how will you know if I actually have the recording or maybe just make up my "review"?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: david johnson on October 05, 2008, 02:04:39 PM
Quote from: M forever on October 05, 2008, 12:24:42 PM
But how will you know if I actually have the recording or maybe just make up my "review"?

would you really lie?

dj
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: greg on October 05, 2008, 04:13:36 PM
Quote from: david johnson on October 05, 2008, 02:04:39 PM
would you really lie?

dj

This version of the 9th symphony is full of subtle nuances that many conductors miss, such as the way the strings cut through the woodwind section, the idiosyncrasies of the brass, and the overall, more flexable and sensitive tempo in the opening movement.
The conductors works with passion, but it's controlled in a way that is somewhat refined, and suits this orchestras playing style very well. It sounds well-rehearsed, every entrance is perfectly timed and on cue.
The recording is superb as well, a little bit sensitive on the high end, but other than that, well done.


ok, i just made that all up  >:D  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: david johnson on October 06, 2008, 02:29:34 AM
GGGGRRREEG is a fibber, GGGGRRREEG is a fibber!!!!
$:) the truth squad is after YOU!

dj
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: greg on October 06, 2008, 02:32:35 PM
nah, i'm just a fiber in a fiberfull world.  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Que on October 06, 2008, 10:02:18 PM
Please stop spamming this Bruckner thread. ::)

Q
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: imperfection on October 06, 2008, 10:11:49 PM
Has anyone watched the Karajan/VPO videos of the 8th and 9th from the late 70s? They are released by Unitel Classics. One of them is recorded in the St. Florian Church! I haven't gotten around to seeing them yet. Opinions?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MISHUGINA on October 08, 2008, 07:25:52 AM
Quote from: imperfection on October 06, 2008, 10:11:49 PM
Has anyone watched the Karajan/VPO videos of the 8th and 9th from the late 70s? They are released by Unitel Classics. One of them is recorded in the St. Florian Church! I haven't gotten around to seeing them yet. Opinions?

About the Bruckner 8th, the 1st two movements are fine but the latter two movements bored me to tears (watches out for M). His EMI and last DG recording is better. The 9th is far better coupled with Te Deum, great performances. Get the 9th if you must.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Maciek on October 15, 2008, 01:38:11 AM
DUX just released a Bruckner 7th under Semkow (with Sinfonia Varsovia). To celebrate the conductor's 80th birthday, I think.

(http://www.dux.pl/upload/obrazki/okladki/0668_mini.jpg) (http://www.dux.pl/catalogue/results/details/?pid=366)
(couldn't find a bigger image, sorry)

I might be getting it next month, when I finally make my long overdue large DUX order...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 15, 2008, 03:36:03 AM
Quote from: Maciek on October 15, 2008, 01:38:11 AM
I might be getting it next month, when I finally make my long overdue large DUX order...

* perks up ears *
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Maciek on October 15, 2008, 05:20:05 AM
Yes, that's right. ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moldyoldie on November 01, 2008, 05:43:11 AM
(Pasted from What Are You Listening To? thread...)
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/61/25/edce224128a047d990f06010._AA240_.L.jpg)
Bruckner: Symphony No. 5
New Philharmonia Orchestra
Otto Klemperer, cond.
EMI

As a point of reference for this brief review, know that I was introduced to the symphonies of Bruckner mostly through Otto Klemperer's commercial recordings with the New Philharmonia Orchestra on EMI/Angel. As is the case with many, it was Bruckner's majestic and tuneful Fourth (heard on late evening radio) that initially turned me on to the composer, and in my case, the conductor as well. From there it was a progression to the Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh.  Let me say that if it wasn't for a bit of persistence and curiosity on my part as a serious listener, my Brucknerian excursion might well have ended after hearing this Fifth.

Here was Bruckner as the musical equivalent of reading War and Peace, or perhaps more apropos to this performance, of Joyce's inscrutable Ulysses.  Klemperer's conception of the Fifth is one of rocklike strength and manifested in a great deal of deliberate, staccato phrasing.  The harmonic details are laid bare, but the experience is akin to climbing Yosemite's El Capitan...step by careful step.  The approach works to fine effect in the opening movement as the measured argument unfolds and culminates compellingly.  However, Klemperer's taut reins and deliberate manner undermine things in the succeeding Adagio movement and the Scherzo that follows; lines begin to crumble somewhat as if parts of the orchestra want to "sing", but are simply not allowed to.  This results in a few noticeable lapses in ensemble, one instance so egregious as to wonder why there wasn't a retake.  In any case, the overall effect through these two contrasting middle movements is one of a measured trot where there should often be a wild gallop; a plodding, drawn-out exegesis where there should be an extended, unbridled proclamation.  Contrast this with almost any other performance, notably those of Jochum/Dresden or Dohnányi/Cleveland, which in my opinion are rightly esteemed among cognoscenti.

The all-important Finale and its fugue elements are equally laid bare, all building and intersecting in Klemperer's unyielding reined-in manner, yet brought home convincingly and making the whole eighty-minute exercise worth the near excruciating wait.  Still....

In good conscience, I can't recommend this recording to a novice listener; seasoned Brucknerites probably already know if it's palatable. I would also guess that this hardened and emphatic performance is venerated among fans of Klemperer as epitomizing the conductor in his later years.  As for me, I purposely avoided Bruckner's Fifth for many years until I was suitably well-heeled to invest in other more flowing and varied recorded performances.  Having returned to this recording the day of this writing, my opinion of it remains mostly unchanged.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 01, 2008, 06:01:31 AM
Another excellent offering. Thank you! I don't know "Klemperer's" Fifth yet (altough I am a Brucknerian), but I shall keep your comments in mind when I eventually come round to listening to it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 01, 2008, 12:56:55 PM
This is a very good recension of the Klemperer fifth, which has stubbornly remained my favourite for the last 30+ years. It was the second one I acquired, after living a few years with the Jochum BRSO. It is indeed a monument of toughness, cragginess and deliberation. And yet it is intensely purposeful and thrustful. This is in part due to the engineering, which is spacious yet very immediate, with winds and brass very much to the fore. A more recessed (natural) ambience would certainly have yielded much less detail, especially rythmic ones.

Yesterday I listened to the Herreweghe from 2004. It's much faster in I, III and IV. Herreweghe accentuates the 'symphonic' aspects of the score (structure and rythmic flow). It's a live performance, so there are quite a few misshaps, but it's still quite cogent. But a 'quite cogent' fifth is insufficient. It has to be totally in the grasp of the players and the conductor. I have the impression this is a mere essay, a first run that will need to be practiced a decade or so before it's ready to be presented as a serious competitor. For a fast, forceful 5th, Jochum's BRSO, Gielen SWR and esp. Suitner's  Berlin versions are hard to beat.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Haffner on November 02, 2008, 04:47:36 PM
Quote from: MISHUGINA on October 08, 2008, 07:25:52 AM
About the Bruckner 8th, the 1st two movements are fine but the latter two movements bored me to tears (watches out for M). His EMI and last DG recording is better. The 9th is far better coupled with Te Deum, great performances. Get the 9th if you must.



I really love the 8th on that dvd, but I think the Karajan DG and the Celibidache are my favorites, particularly the former. As for 9ths, that dvd is equalled only by the Karajan DG, in my opinion. But I haven't heard the Giulini yet.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 11, 2008, 04:58:54 PM
Listened to recently:

Symphony no. 4 by the Berlin Festival Orchestra, Robert Heger (live), The Philadelphia Orchestra, Eugene Ormandy (studio), and the Berlin Philharmonic, Hans Knappertsbusch (live, 1944).


The Heger is nicely done, a spacious account of some power. It's a good live recording available from John Berky's site (check 'download of the month' section). No details of the date or venue, but it's certainly a mid-sixties recording. For completists. Ormandy's is one of the safe recommendations for the work. I can't imagine it being put across in a more natural way. Everything is unforced, but there is power, brilliance and depth of feeling. It's all a bit glossy though, and ultimately not entirely compelling. Brilliant playing and excellent recording - I like the depth of soundstage and totally ungimmicked recording. At budget price it's a good enough purchase. Knappertsbusch's uses a truncated text (scherzo and finale). It boasts impressive conducting, some powerful playing and is recorded in resonably tolerable sound. For completists (part of a set that also includes symphonies 3, 5, 7, 8, and 9).

Symphony no. 5 by Hans Knappertsbusch and the WP, Wilhelm Furtwängler and the WP (live, 1951). The 1956 Knappertsbusch is in stereo and boasts fine playing and sound (studio - originally released on Decca, it's part of the above-mentioned box). It's the corrupted  Schalk Bros. travesty with its quite terrible cuts and (in the finale) garish reorchestration. The thing evolves much like Strauss' infamous Festliches Praeludium, erupting with incredible bombast in the coda, complete with added cymbal crashes, piccolo and triangle, and doubled or tripled brass section. Still, if one is to endure the thing, it's much better done than the Telarc Botstein. At least there's a gruffness that is appropriate to the music, and the orchestra play like heroes.

Furtwängler's interpretation rights every wrong from the Knappertsbusch one. It's a fire-eating performance, where impetus and power come from within the music - as opposed to applied on it like half a dozen overcoats. Very rough recording and somewhat variable playing. It's hard to ascribe the too recessed and timid horns and trombones on the players - it could be the engineering. No such reservation with the trumpet section, timpani or strings. The latter are glorious in the great, fervently intoned hymn (main theme) of the Adagio. Overall it's a wildly emotional ride. Not for everyday consumption, and recommended only to the 5th symphony's enthusiast.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Que on November 12, 2008, 12:25:59 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 11, 2008, 04:58:54 PM
Symphony no. 5 by Hans Knappertsbusch and the WP, Wilhelm Furtwängler and the WP (live, 1951).

Lilas, what source (label) on the Furtwängler? Orfeo? :)

Q
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 12, 2008, 06:31:36 PM
No, it's EMI (Festspieldokumente). Is Orfeo's better sounding ?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moldyoldie on November 13, 2008, 06:59:52 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 11, 2008, 04:58:54 PM
Furtwängler's interpretation rights every wrong from the Knappertsbusch one. It's a fire-eating performance, where impetus and power come from within the music - as opposed to applied on it like half a dozen overcoats. Very rough recording and somewhat variable playing. It's hard to ascribe the too recessed and timid horns and trombones on the players - it could be the engineering. No such reservation with the trumpet section, timpani or strings. The latter are glorious in the great, fervently intoned hymn (main theme) of the Adagio. Overall it's a wildly emotional ride. Not for everyday consumption, and recommended only to the 5th symphony's enthusiast.
I was surprised at how straightforward and "no-nonsense" Furtwängler interpreted the Fifth.

I just listened to this for the second time in the past week.  The review is pasted from "What Are You Listening To?":
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515V38PV0YL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Bruckner: Symphony No. 5
Munich Philharmonic
Christian Thielemann, cond.
DEUTSCHE GRAMMOPHON

A reviewer on Amazon.com wrote of this performance:
"Thielemann here frankly disjoints and loses continuity in too many places in the fabric of this work: at times the thread of Bruckner's argument is all but lost: the web and woof are at points virtually dissipated, irrevocably deconstructed."

I was so flabbergasted to read this after hearing this wonderful recording that I had to issue a rejoinder. Conductor Thielemann and the Munich Philharmonic give us an incredible performance of Bruckner's Fifth, so much so that I was held absolutely rapt and spellbound throughout. All elements of Bruckner's often problematic invention are melded thoughtfully and coherently in an interpretation where every last nuance in stress, pause, build, and release works to marvelous effect -- but more importantly, in telling a compelling musical story over an 80+ minute span. These ears noticed absolutely no "deconstruction" or "disjointedness" in Bruckner's argument -- in fact, I've rarely heard it put forth more convincingly!

What probably impresses me even more is that Thielemann's singular conception of the work and its marvelous execution here sound as organic and inevitable as in any performance of the Fifth I've ever heard -- not one single note or inflection sounds inordinately willful nor out of place when considered in toto. That this was recorded in live performance is certainly a testament to the orchestra's virtuosity and commitment, to say nothing of the awe that the audience must have collectively experienced! Perhaps Munich concert-goers are used to the Celibidachean "slower is always better" manner, though as a listener I certainly don't always adhere to that notion. (For what it's worth, I've yet to hear any of Celibidache's performances of the Fifth.) Absolute tempo in itself is hardly the be-all and end-all of an effective and memorable Bruckner performance, interpretation and execution are -- it's what makes this performance uniquely special! Further kudos are in order for the recording and engineering team who convey an incredibly natural and translucent soundstage.

I've read good and bad reviews of this release. After hearing and loving it twice, I'm ready to proclaim it as a modern exemplar of the viability of ultra-expansive Brucknerian performance. I do wonder, however, how a novice listener will take to it.

For those who may be curious as to how the 82'34" single disc was "handled" by my CD players -- one a Bose Wave radio/CD player, another a Kenwood 5-CD carousel deck -- there were no problems with either.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moldyoldie on November 25, 2008, 07:18:42 AM
(Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4101KRK0FJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Bruckner: Symphony No. 5 (Nowak Edition)
London Philharmonic Orchestra
Franz Welser-Möst, cond.
EMI

All the things I've read about this recording, apparently pieced from two live performances in 1993 at the Konzerthaus in Vienna, are mostly true.  Conductor Welser-Möst, while not driving this massive work headlong into every serpentine alpine curve, certainly doesn't see it as a lengthy, organically constructed meditation a la the more recent release from Christian Thielemann on DG whose praises I sang earlier.  Welser-Möst and the LPO give us a Fifth well-entrenched in a secular sensibility with a host of consciously rendered emphases (particularly from dynamically prominent tympani!) and surprising diversions to hold our attention along the way.  Most any of Bruckner's lengthy symphonies can be effectively (and often affectively) presented in this manner, but here we're made very aware of what's often described as the "episodic" qualities of this particular work.  As compensation, Welser-Möst tends to further divvy up these episodes into mini-installments of varying tempo and dynamic drive -- if nothing else, it's entertaining!  The orchestra responds with great commitment and ensemble execution. 

However, we do miss much of the rapture of the Adagio second movement as it was so knowingly conferred by Eugen Jochum, whose approach to the Fifth was also one of purposeful variation, but in a palpably different and ultimately more affecting way.  The Scherzo third movement here, while suitably enlivening, is also missing the interpretive qualities which tie it organically with itself as well as the work as a whole. These two middle movements are where this "melded performance" is probably found the most wanting.  The Finale, however, is excitingly rendered -- its fugal elements are fearlessly fused to fine effect and the coda is brought home with a most satisfying "controlled abandon".  The audience, heretofore mostly innocuous in their presence, erupts into spontaneous applause.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 25, 2008, 06:48:56 PM
Thanks for this recension, Moldyoldie.

This recording was brought to my attention by another poster who professed a guarded enthusiasm about it. I dutifully listened to it but could not connect the dots here. I found the interpretation not only episodic (as you mention) but cheply bombastic and aggressive (those timpani proving particularly annoying in the context of a seemingly respighian interpretation). IOW I hated it. It pushed all the wrong buttons and the LPO's rather glassy sound didn't help to redeem anything the way another ensemble more steeped in the brucknerian idiom might have.

But since I respect your opinion I'm concluding I might have overreacted and will give it another go next time I play a string of Fifths. I'll try to get that Thielemann version (never heard it). Thanks for that too!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moldyoldie on December 05, 2008, 07:35:04 AM
(Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?")
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410EQ72ESXL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) Most recently marketed as...(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PamLw3YvL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Bruckner: Symphony No. 4 "Romantic" (Nowak Edition)
Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
Karl Böhm, cond.
DECCA

Bruckner's Fourth Symphony has been a personal favorite of mine since first hearing it on the radio in the early '70s (Klemperer/Philharmonia/EMI); I've just heard this vaunted Böhm/Vienna recording for the first time. Overall, first impressions of a seasoned listener being what they are, I find this performance to be exceedingly routine in interpretation, but quite fine in orchestral execution and technical vibrancy -- in other words, it would probably make a decent introduction for the novice listener. Other than that....

To my ears, the most striking aspects to be heard here are in the dynamic and temporal nuances Böhm elicits in the slow Andante second movement. If "silence" and "quiet" are attention-getting virtues, Böhm uses them to fine effect while subtly shaping delicate melodic lines. The rhythmic pulse is often held onto by the thinnest of threads until gradual orchestral builds are expertly sculpted with a fine shading of timbral dynamics, effectively putting forth what can be an imposingly longwinded and comparatively prosaic Brucknerian argument. Here, I find the movement to be the highlight of the entire performance.

In my opinion, there are several more involving recorded performances readily available on the market -- Klemperer, Abbado, Tennstedt, Jochum, Celibidache -- but if one is looking for a good-sounding, well-performed, and mostly unaffected introduction into the edificial Brucknerian sound world, this might be as good as any.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2008, 07:53:41 AM
Quote from: moldyoldie on December 05, 2008, 07:35:04 AM
I've just heard this vaunted Böhm/Vienna recording for the first time..... Overall, first impressions of a seasoned listener being what they are, I find this performance to be exceedingly routine in interpretation...

My feelings exactly. I've owned this (on LP and CD) for over 30 years, listened to it many times, but have never undestood why it's so highly regarded by so many (a legend? why?). It leaves me cold.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on December 05, 2008, 07:55:35 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2008, 07:53:41 AM
My feelings exactly. I've owned this (on LP and CD) for over 30 years, listened to it many times, but have never undestood why it's so highly thought of by so many (a legend? why?). It leaves me cold.

Sarge
This recording has also never done anything for me. I should revisit this some time; the 4th has never been amongst my favourite Bruckners and it's been a long time since I've listened to anyone but Furtwangler or Celibidache in it, so I probably need a bit more variety in listening.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on December 05, 2008, 03:50:58 PM
Quote from: edward on December 05, 2008, 07:55:35 AM
This recording has also never done anything for me. I should revisit this some time; the 4th has never been amongst my favourite Bruckners and it's been a long time since I've listened to anyone but Furtwangler or Celibidache in it, so I probably need a bit more variety in listening.

Concertgebouw / Klemperer / 1947, live / Tahra (if you can find it)

New and potentially very interesting 9th has just come out:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41sSB2LTKtL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on December 05, 2008, 06:48:42 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2008, 07:53:41 AM
My feelings exactly. I've owned this (on LP and CD) for over 30 years, listened to it many times, but have never undestood why

The orchestra and the sonics.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 06, 2008, 05:49:33 PM
Böhm's Vienna Bruckners (3, 4, 7, 8 ) are characterized by totally unforced and natural pacing. It can sound like the recipe for bland Bruckner, but it isn't. If you don't relate to their Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert or Brahms, there's little chance that you'll find their Bruckner engrossing. I personally like it a lot, although only the DG 8th is a 'top' in my book. But the others are very close to it. There are many ways to conduct this music.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on December 21, 2008, 06:49:08 PM
Quote from: Drasko on December 05, 2008, 03:50:58 PM
Concertgebouw / Klemperer / 1947, live / Tahra (if you can find it)

New and potentially very interesting 9th has just come out:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41sSB2LTKtL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Holy cr@p! Must have that! Thanks for the heads-up! Heard Luisi live twice over the past month and a half. The guy is just plain brilliant.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on December 21, 2008, 06:50:23 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 06, 2008, 05:49:33 PM
Böhm's Vienna Bruckners (3, 4, 7, 8 ) are characterized by totally unforced and natural pacing. It can sound like the recipe for bland Bruckner, but it isn't. If you don't relate to their Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert or Brahms, there's little chance that you'll find their Bruckner engrossing. I personally like it a lot, although only the DG 8th is a 'top' in my book. But the others are very close to it. There are many ways to conduct this music.

Second that. I love his VPO Bruckner 4 (though my personal favorite is Kubelik with BRSO). Incidentally, are you aware of Böhm's Bruckner 7 with BRSO on audite. That one is terriffic as well.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on December 21, 2008, 06:53:16 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on December 21, 2008, 06:50:23 PM
Second that. I love his VPO Bruckner 4 (though my personal favorite is Kubelik with BRSO). Incidentally, are you aware of Böhm's Bruckner 7 with BRSO on audite. That one is terriffic as well.

The live VPO 7th on Andante (http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=20314) is lovely.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 22, 2008, 06:00:22 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on December 21, 2008, 06:50:23 PM
Second that. I love his VPO Bruckner 4 (though my personal favorite is Kubelik with BRSO). Incidentally, are you aware of Böhm's Bruckner 7 with BRSO on audite. That one is terriffic as well.

Agreed, re: Kubelik's BRSO (the studio one instead of the live one for me). Add to that the Suitner berlin RSO as another personal favourite...

I have the Audite Böhm 7th (as well as their 8th), but since my next Anton listening session will feature a clutch of 5ths, that could take a while...

Never heard the Andante 7th (WP), but according to some, it's much along the lines of the studio recording. Which may or may not be true.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on December 23, 2008, 08:41:28 PM
I am that rare person who does not like Bohm's VPO 4th. I find it very dull and four-square, and the ensemble is less than perfect. The DG 7th is wonderful, though. I have yet to hear him in the 3rd.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on December 24, 2008, 10:03:45 AM
The Audite live BRSO Böhm 7th made it onto the ionarts Best of 2008 list, along with the new Haitink CSO 7th, which I also wholeheartedly recommend. The most detailed reading I have ever heard.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on December 24, 2008, 10:56:55 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on December 24, 2008, 10:03:45 AM
The Audite live BRSO Böhm 7th made it onto the ionarts Best of 2008 list, along with the new Haitink CSO 7th, which I also wholeheartedly recommend. The most detailed reading I have ever heard.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html


I believe the author of that "Best of" list is also here, himself! ;)


Bought the Luisi 9th, at last, and will be giving it a spin later tonight.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on December 26, 2008, 08:32:53 AM
Santa brought this from Germany:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4260034866294.jpg)

Amazing! Very refined playing. Great dramatic arc. A real exploration for me to hear this original version. The original scherzo is really fascinating. A lot of starts and stops and long rests. Makes the whole thing sound much more like the 5th than the 1878/-1880 4th we are normally familiar with.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on January 20, 2009, 07:34:13 AM
The excellent Bruckner 6 by Bongartz/Gewandhausorchester Leipzig is at last available in this cheap 8CD box set!

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/3664421?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0782124845124.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on January 20, 2009, 07:48:06 AM
How is the sound on that Berlin Classics set? I see there's a few of them around, ridiculously cheap. What gives?

(If nothing "gives", I'm interested!)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on January 20, 2009, 08:02:28 AM
Quote from: Renfield on January 20, 2009, 07:48:06 AM
How is the sound on that Berlin Classics set? I see there's a few of them around, ridiculously cheap. What gives?

(If nothing "gives", I'm interested!)

Well, normally Berlin Classics have "normal" to very good sound. The Bongartz Bruckner is a quite modern recording, and has no negative issues sound-wise. I know there are some Edel Classics sets with historical recordings, but I don't know any of these.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 20, 2009, 08:29:58 PM
Please let us know how Bongartz fares in the 6th !!!!

Not available singly I suppose? :'(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on January 21, 2009, 10:24:57 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on January 20, 2009, 08:29:58 PM
Please let us know how Bongartz fares in the 6th !!!!

Not available singly I suppose? :'(

Well, it is just how I like my Bruckner 6, driven, precise and with plenty of momentum. It's my clear favourite for this symphony.

It seems like they mostly reissue box sets these day, so I would be very surprised if you'll find it singly.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 22, 2009, 07:04:19 PM
My Bruckner guru confirms it's available only as part of a box, but it's quite cheap (he ordered it for some 25 GBP).  I've had that Bongartz Leipzig 6th for a few years already (it's on Berlin Classics). It's my own favourite as well (Leitner SWR and Keilberth BP follow closely, with Swoboda and Stein in the antechamber). I thought you were referring to the 5th, which Bongartz never recorded.

I keep getting confused with my Bruckner discs. Either I'm getting really old, or I have too many Brucner recordings - or both  ::).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 29, 2009, 07:29:08 PM
The lavish Artone set of Bruckner 4-5 and Brahms 1-4 with Kempe and the MPO didn't get an auspicious start. These are most probably direct transripts from LPs. In those days Odyssey lps were noisy and had little bass. The 5th has sometimes been dubbed the 'pizzicato symphony', but you'd never guess from those transcripts. The whole bottom range is so severely compressed that practically nothing under 24Khz registers (don't take my word for that last bit of technicality - I only mean to say the dynamic range is bassless). Piano nuances (timpani, pizzicato strings esp.) simply go for naught.

The interpretations are very straightforward, wth quite a lot of volatility. Either the conductor, or the balance engineers heavily favoured the trumpets so the brass mix in 4 sounds totally wrong. The 4th is NOT a trumpet-dominated work. This blatty bunch soon grates the ears, and by the time the scherzo ends, I only wished they had gone out (at my expense) to the local biergarten :P.. Interesting (and probably unintentional) brass balance at the end of I. If, as I suspect, the trumpets were sweeter and less prominent, it would have highlighted the gorgeous mellifulousness and sheer 'liquid' sound of the great horn calls. As it is, it seems like they unintentionally highlight how puny the horns sound next to the rest of the orchestra. And yet, when reflecting on what I just heard, it was obvious the horns were simply perfect, while the rest of the brass section was horribly misbalanced.

Another feature I noticed in this 4th and 5th is how Kempe treats the timpani. He's not afraid to have them swell and underpin the fortissimo moments, but for some reason he shies away from having them hammer out important conclusive paragraph chords with a big thwack. So, lots of rrrRRRrrr, but no ooomph.

By and large, this 4th sank way below at least a dozen other versions with more 'face'. A rather similar view can be heard in the lyrical Ormandy Philadelphia, which is better played (movement by movement) and better integrated as a whole. I'm not so sure about the 5th. I liked his impetuosity in the allegro portions of I (better integrated than with the rather similar Jochumses). Excellent slow movement, where the mixture of hieratic spirituality and massively sensuous string pronouncements are particularly well integrated. Kempe's scherzo keeps buzzing in my head. I  *think* it may well be the best I've ever heard. Besides the rusticity and blunt amusement, Kempe brings a degree of spookiness I had never imagined was present in this movement. I'll have to listen again before pronouncing anything on the finale. At first hearing I found it very well paced, but texturally light.  How much of that is from the deficient engineering, its hard to tell. But I heard more lightness, joy and exultation than usual (not necessarily the qualities I associate with this movement), and less forcefulness, drama and sheer theatricality than with, say, Klemperer, Celibidache, Jochum Amsterdam and Suitner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on January 30, 2009, 04:16:11 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on January 29, 2009, 07:29:08 PM
The interpretations are very straightforward, wth quite a lot of volatility. Either the conductor, or the balance engineers heavily favoured the trumpets so the brass mix in 4 sounds totally wrong. The 4th is NOT a trumpet-dominated work. This blatty bunch soon grates the ears, and by the time the scherzo ends, I only wished they had gone out (at my expense) to the local biergarten :P.. Interesting (and probably unintentional) brass balance at the end of I. If, as I suspect, the trumpets were sweeter and less prominent, it would have highlighted the gorgeous mellifulousness and sheer 'liquid' sound of the great horn calls. As it is, it seems like they unintentionally highlight how puny the horns sound next to the rest of the orchestra. And yet, when reflecting on what I just heard, it was obvious the horns were simply perfect, while the rest of the brass section was horribly misbalanced.

Interesting. I haven't listened to it in a while so can't recall the specifics of performances, and mine are on different label (Acanta Pilz). I think I liked the 4th but found 5th to be somewhat earthbound. But I do remember the discussion I had at that time with Nigel regarding these on how Kempe seemed to prefer more brass dominated orchestral balance unlike Kabasta, his predecessor in Munich, or Celibidache, his successor, who both cultivated more prominent string sound.
Anyhow, I'll send you copies of my Acanta Pilz discs, so you can compare transfers.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on January 30, 2009, 07:06:37 AM
Quote from: Renfield on January 20, 2009, 07:48:06 AM
How is the sound on that Berlin Classics set? I see there's a few of them around, ridiculously cheap. What gives?

(If nothing "gives", I'm interested!)

The label could be accused of slight over-filtering from my experience with their older recordings (such as the Abendroth box) - but considering the recording quality was good in the first place, it shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 30, 2009, 05:57:20 PM
Thanks, Milos! In a sense I very quickly had the impression of déjà entendu. In those days I was a very impecunious collector and I had an aversion for Odyssey LPs. Their surfaces were invariably swishy and noisy and the dynamic range very compressed. I distinctly recall the Mozart 9 and Haydn D major concertos, the Mitropoulos Fantastique, Brahms piano concertos (Fleisher) and the Mozart piano works by Lili Kraus. One had to cling to the music making with as much blind faith as possible. OTOH the Walter Brahms symphonies were very good. Maybe a better mastering will alter that perception. Well, I hope...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on January 30, 2009, 09:43:08 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on January 29, 2009, 07:29:08 PM
The lavish Artone set of Bruckner 4-5 and Brahms 1-4 with Kempe and the MPO didn't get an auspicious start. These are most probably direct transripts from LPs.

I can say most definitely that these are not transfers from the Odyssey Lps.  The CD has greater dynamic range but also a rather hard sound.  I suspect they are using the Acanta transfers.  The Odyssey Lps, for all their other faults, are warm and lovely sounding.  I'd love to hear the BASF Lps, but they are rare in this part of the world.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 31, 2009, 07:35:46 AM
I'm not sure, Dave. During the quiet parts I definitely hear residual sounds. Either some tape hiss, but more probably slightly swishy surfaces. That's what made me think of LP transfers. I used to have a few BASF and they were not of the highest quality either.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 01, 2009, 05:43:14 AM
New from Berky's Bruckner website (http://www.abruckner.com/Downloads/downloadofthemonth/february09/):

QuoteThis month's download is a performance of the Symphony No. 9 with the Carragan Finale, Hubert Soudant conducts the Utrecht Symphony Orchestra.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 04, 2009, 03:44:02 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on February 01, 2009, 05:43:14 AM
New from Berky's Bruckner website (http://www.abruckner.com/Downloads/downloadofthemonth/february09/):

QuoteThis month's download is a performance of the Symphony No. 9 with the Carragan Finale, Hubert Soudant conducts the Utrecht Symphony Orchestra.

I remember listening to this live on Dutch radio many years ago. Carragan was present and thanked the conductor afterwards (I can still hear his voice and how he pronounced Soudant...)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on February 18, 2009, 04:51:15 PM
I upped two late Jochum recordings of the 8th and 9th symphonies for anyone interested. They contrast decently with his famous ones, the interps of which hadn't changed very much for decades before.

No.8 (http://rapidshare.com/files/199791345/Bruckner_Sym.8_Jochum_Tokyo.rar), No.9 (http://rapidshare.com/files/199806246/Bruckner_Sym.9_Jochum_Munich.rar).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on February 19, 2009, 02:42:20 AM
I heard an excellent performance of Bruckner's 8th on the car radio yesterday. Gunter Herbig and one of the BBC orchestras. I was sorry to see that he does not seem to have recorded any of them, but I may be wrong.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 19, 2009, 05:34:33 AM
Quote from: Lethe on February 18, 2009, 04:51:15 PM
I upped two late Jochum recordings of the 8th and 9th symphonies for anyone interested. They contrast decently with his famous ones, the interps of which hadn't changed very much for decades before.

Thanks, Sarah!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: drogulus on February 19, 2009, 02:06:27 PM
Quote from: Lethe on February 18, 2009, 04:51:15 PM
I upped two late Jochum recordings of the 8th and 9th symphonies for anyone interested. They contrast decently with his famous ones, the interps of which hadn't changed very much for decades before.

No.8 (http://rapidshare.com/files/199791345/Bruckner_Sym.8_Jochum_Tokyo.rar), No.9 (http://rapidshare.com/files/199806246/Bruckner_Sym.9_Jochum_Munich.rar).

     I'm getting an error message for No. 8, saying I'm already downloading. I think I messed up, and now it won't let me have the file.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on February 19, 2009, 04:16:49 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 19, 2009, 02:42:20 AM
I heard an excellent performance of Bruckner's 8th on the car radio yesterday. Gunter Herbig and one of the BBC orchestras. I was sorry to see that he does not seem to have recorded any of them, but I may be wrong.

Here's what the Bruckner Discography lists (http://www.abruckner.com/sitesearch/searchdiscographyd/default.htm?search=herbig).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on February 19, 2009, 04:47:57 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on January 31, 2009, 07:35:46 AM
I'm not sure, Dave. During the quiet parts I definitely hear residual sounds. Either some tape hiss, but more probably slightly swishy surfaces. That's what made me think of LP transfers. I used to have a few BASF and they were not of the highest quality either.

I suppose they could have applied some kind of dynamic range expansion, then filtered the hell out of it to try to hide the vinyl source.  A travesty of the originally quite lovely recording.  By the way, I disagree with your assessment of Odyssey, they were generally very good.  Try Schipper's Barber Lp, for example.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 19, 2009, 06:00:09 PM
I've never heard that Schippers Odyssey lp. But I can cite at least a dozen of very unsatisfactory products. Manufactured in different places ? Mozart piano sonatas by Lili Kraus, Mitropoulos Fantastique, Mahler 1, 2, and 9 by Walter, Mozart/Haydn concerti by Igor Kipnis, Brahms piano concertos (Szell) immediately spring to mind.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on February 19, 2009, 06:19:25 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on February 19, 2009, 06:00:09 PM
I've never heard that Schippers Odyssey lp. But I can cite at least a dozen of very unsatisfactory products. Manufactured in different places ? Mozart piano sonatas by Lili Kraus, Mitropoulos Fantastique, Mahler 1, 2, and 9 by Walter, Mozart/Haydn concerti by Igor Kipnis, Brahms piano concertos (Szell) immediately spring to mind.

But I like the sound of that Fantastique.  I have a nice quiet copy of it.  I also have a 6-eye pressing, though not in very good shape.  Of those you list, I also have the Mahler 9 and the Brahms set, so I'll have to give them a listen. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 19, 2009, 06:50:14 PM
I am talking about the pressings, not the sound. Are you too? In my experience lps were good if they were manufactured in Europe, rather lousy if not. Another case in point were the Angel lps vs the EMI or, even better, the german Electrola ones (best pressings I've come across along with the dutch Philips onse). Worst of all were the RCA lps, which often came out warped from the envelope :P.

But soundwise it's the source recording that makes a difference, whatever the provenance of the pressing.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on February 19, 2009, 06:51:06 PM
Quote from: drogulus on February 19, 2009, 02:06:27 PM
     I'm getting an error message for No. 8, saying I'm already downloading. I think I messed up, and now it won't let me have the file.

Hmm, it could either be that you recently started the DL, canceled, then restarted, and RS has yet to catch up with what has happened (it doesn't allow simultaneous DLs for free users), or perhaps your IP (if dynamic) has recently been used to DL a file by another PC (if you have only just connected to the net). These are only guesses, though :-X

With RS, though, the best medicine is usually to do an IP reset, or leave it for an hour and try again.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 19, 2009, 06:56:06 PM
I didn't check, but I assume this Munich 9th is the same as that posted some time ago by Mforever?

Thanks a lot for that Tokyo 8th. I really look forward to that one. Jochum's Bruckner became settled and absolutely authoritative in his very last years (the 1980s). His earlier recordings were sometimes impressive, sometimes irritating.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on February 19, 2009, 07:03:03 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on February 19, 2009, 06:56:06 PM
I didn't check, but I assume this Munich 9th is the same as that posted some time ago by Mforever?

Yep, both were quite commonly posted around on the net around 2 years ago when these rips were made. It was M who spurred me to finally listen to the 9th :D (too many DLs, too little time)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 19, 2009, 07:08:34 PM
It sure deserves to be included in anyone's select list of outstanding 9ths, so thanks for resurfacing it!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on February 19, 2009, 08:14:58 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on February 19, 2009, 06:50:14 PM
I am talking about the pressings, not the sound.

It's partly a reflection of what was available here in the U.S., but compared to most other domestic U.S. budget labels, Odyssey was quite good in terms of surfaces, consistent with other American Columbia pressings (for what that's worth).    I haven't had much problem with warpage.  One can seek out 2-eye and 6-eye pressings, but the older they are, the fewer clean copies there are to be found.   OK, sorry for the diversion...back to Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: drogulus on February 20, 2009, 12:25:54 PM
Quote from: Lethe on February 19, 2009, 06:51:06 PM
Hmm, it could either be that you recently started the DL, canceled, then restarted, and RS has yet to catch up with what has happened (it doesn't allow simultaneous DLs for free users), or perhaps your IP (if dynamic) has recently been used to DL a file by another PC (if you have only just connected to the net). These are only guesses, though :-X

With RS, though, the best medicine is usually to do an IP reset, or leave it for an hour and try again.

   Thanks, an IP reset sounds interesting. I think I just canceled it so I'll just grab it later today.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Que on February 20, 2009, 12:53:38 PM
HIP Bruckner anyone? 8)


(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0794881910526.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Anton%20Bruckner%3A%20Symphonie%20Nr.%205/hnum/1626669)
               click picture

Q
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Haffner on February 20, 2009, 12:54:51 PM
Quote from: Que on February 20, 2009, 12:53:38 PM
HIP Bruckner anyone? 8)


(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0794881910526.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Anton%20Bruckner%3A%20Symphonie%20Nr.%205/hnum/1626669)
               click picture

Q



Heyyy, and by quite the conductor....(drool).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Bulldog on February 20, 2009, 01:04:20 PM
Quote from: Que on February 20, 2009, 12:53:38 PM
HIP Bruckner anyone? 8)


(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0794881910526.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Anton%20Bruckner%3A%20Symphonie%20Nr.%205/hnum/1626669)
               click picture

Q

Thanks for the heads-up.  This is one I'll definitely be buying.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on February 21, 2009, 01:36:56 PM
Quote from: Lethe on February 18, 2009, 04:51:15 PM
I upped two late Jochum recordings of the 8th and 9th symphonies for anyone interested. They contrast decently with his famous ones, the interps of which hadn't changed very much for decades before.

No.8 (http://rapidshare.com/files/199791345/Bruckner_Sym.8_Jochum_Tokyo.rar), No.9 (http://rapidshare.com/files/199806246/Bruckner_Sym.9_Jochum_Munich.rar).

Thanks! :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 04, 2009, 05:01:07 PM
Comments from my much younger brother on the Los Angeles performance of Bruckner's Ninth on Tuesday night: he mentions his daughter, my niece, who suffers from the family's tendency toward hyper-aestheticism, a malady dooming her to a life tangential to, if not entirely disconnected from, economic success.

She is 11 years old.

"Zubin Mehta conducting the Vienna Philharmonic last night -- Bruckner's 9th.

I have NEVER heard the 9th performed so well -- so unique.

My daughter was transfixed -- her eyes locked toward the ceiling. Then suddenly she would jump into my arms and had a look of utter terror in her face. Her eyes glistened with tears. When I asked her if the music was frightening her, she said, no, it's just so amazing. She was having some sort of expressionistic meltdown.

I asked her what the music was about. And she said: "Death. No... life."

But what was impressive was the singularity of movement and sound from the orchestra. All the strings sounded as if they were being played by a soloist -- i.e., with great unison and precision.
And the striations of sound during the scherzo were much longer and deliberate than anything I've ever heard.

I actually leaned forward in my seat and looked around to see if anyone else was experiencing this kind of heightened sense about the performance. Most people were in another world. Quite hypnotic. It was bar none the most mystical experience I've felt at any concert.

Mehta made the orchestra hush between sections in the Third Movement-- 4 definitive breaks. I thought it made the piece a lot more coherent, by being seemingly disconnected.

At times the hair on my neck actually stood up, and I had chills."

To which I responded: "Of course!  You were listening to BRUCKNER!!!"   0:)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on March 04, 2009, 05:29:24 PM
WOW !!  :o

Hopefully a Rapishare or Mediafire link will appear in short order  :D

I wonder if any member of the 1965 WP was still playing that night. That old Decca disc is one of the glories of the catalogue. Not necessarily the best, but of necessity, unique.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 04, 2009, 05:40:55 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on March 04, 2009, 05:29:24 PM
WOW !!  :o

Hopefully a Rapishare or Mediafire link will appear in short order  :D

I wonder if any member of the 1965 WP was still playing that night. That old Decca disc is one of the glories of the catalogue. Not necessarily the best, but of necessity, unique.

Here is a professional review by Mark Swed:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2009/03/zubin-mehta-bri.html
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on March 04, 2009, 05:51:47 PM
Thanks ! Methink it was a grand, grand occasion. Surely something will surface. It has to.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Opus106 on March 05, 2009, 04:21:43 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 04, 2009, 05:01:07 PM
And the striations of sound during the scherzo were much longer and deliberate than anything I've ever heard.
Quite true. I haven't listened to many performances of this work, but the scherzo in a recent performance by the same bunch sounded quite different.

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on March 04, 2009, 05:29:24 PM
WOW !!  :o

Hopefully a Rapishare or Mediafire link will appear in short order  :D

The Vienna and Paris performances are already out there. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on March 13, 2009, 03:07:29 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 04, 2009, 05:01:07 PM
Comments from my much younger brother on the Los Angeles performance of Bruckner's Ninth on Tuesday night:
I have NEVER heard the 9th performed so well -- so unique.

I wasn't able to be there, so I sent a friend instead, who reported back the following (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/03/ionarts-at-large-vienna-philharmonic-in.html):
Quote[...] If you can take your Bruckner 9th without the cataclysmic, the minatory, the cosmic mystery, and the exaltation, then the Mehta interpretation might be for you. But you might wonder: where is the inner life of this work?  This was an exterior view of Bruckner.  As such, it revealed very little. God was left in the Green Room. [...]

Quote from: Que on February 20, 2009, 12:53:38 PM
HIP Bruckner anyone? 8)


(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0794881910526.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001NZA0HY/nectarandambr-20)

Well, I was skeptical (not the least because I had to suffer through a HORRID Norrington Bruckner 4th, once), but Herreweghe's recording of the Seventh is actually quite good (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/11/dip-your-ears-no-17.html).
---
His Fourth isn't bad either, but not much more than just that: Not bad. (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/05/dip-your-ears-no-60.html)

----
Nearly forgot my main point: Coming at the latest in 2012 from UNITEL: A complete Bruckner Cycle with the Munich Philharmonic and Christian Thielemann in High Definition Sound & Video!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on March 13, 2009, 05:34:01 PM
I have a WP Mehta 9th in the can (thanks to M :-* NOT Forever), but haven't listened to it yet. The performance is prefaced by a german radio announcer, so it's impossible to tell if it's the LA one broadcast "there" or any other one. I guess Mehta is touring with the WP all over the place. More power to them!

In any case, on account of their historic 1965 Decca recording, I can't for a fleeting moment think that they could deliver an un-cataclysmic, un-minatory, etc performance (nice choice of words BTW, which tells more about its author's predilections thant its subject's artistic potential - IOW when you think you KNOW how a piece should go, who needs broadcasts and critics  ::)).

But I myself digress: I haven't heard the 2009 WP  Mehta 9th. I will HONESTLY report on my findings in due course!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dundonnell on March 13, 2009, 05:45:43 PM
Reading the posts about Bruckner's 7th in 'What Are You Listening To?" reminded me that the three versions of the symphony I have are van Beinum's Concertgebouw recording(on LP), Haitink's Royal Concertgebouw recording from 1978 and the Vienna Philharmonic recording conducted by Nikolaus Harnoncourt.

Now I know that this will sound silly...but can anybody give me any idea why I might have bought the Harnoncourt? Somebody must surely have recommended it to me? How does it rate?

Eugene?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on March 13, 2009, 06:07:55 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 13, 2009, 05:45:43 PM
Reading the posts about Bruckner's 7th in 'What Are You Listening To?" reminded me that the three versions of the symphony I have are van Beinum's Concertgebouw recording(on LP), Haitink's Royal Concertgebouw recording from 1978 and the Vienna Philharmonic recording conducted by Nikolaus Harnoncourt.

Now I know that this will sound silly...but can anybody give me any idea why I might have bought the Harnoncourt? Somebody must surely have recommended it to me? How does it rate?

Eugene?

There's more than one Van Beinum recording! I suppose you have the earlier one? (IIRC, there's two of them.) :) I'm asking because I've read praise for it from the Gramophone's archive, but I don't think it's currently available on CD outside Japan, and I'm curious.


Now, on Harnoncourt, I don't have the recording, but from what I've read of it, I understand it's less of a clear success than his 5th or 9th (which are both excellent), and is more of a typical 'Harnoncourt-job' - so to speak - than either of the latter.

To illustrate my point, here (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/January%202000/68/799630#article-begin) is the review I had consulted at first (through the old Gramophone site), quite indicative of most comments I've read on this recording: great playing, point-making one may or may not appreciate (Osborne didn't, but he's quite conservative), and a generally "pumped up" reading, as far as my impression of RO's appraisal goes - i.e. typical Harnoncourt (versus un-typical Harnoncourt in the 5th or 9th).


Of course, I will again note that I have not heard it myself.

Still, going by the comments, I would only be inclined to acquire it as an alternative take, rather than a 'proper' recording of the symphony; which is how it might've been recommended to you, as "a different take on the Bruckner 7th" (which it arguably is). :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dundonnell on March 13, 2009, 06:19:11 PM
That's very interesting, Eugene, thank you :)

As far as the van Beinum is concerned, I really don't know the date; it is a Decca double set coupled with Cesar Franck's 'Psyche'(!) on LXT 2829.

Regarding Harnoncourt, I would have read the Gramophone review but I may also have been influenced by (presumably) Edward Greenfield in the Penguin Guide; he waxed lyrical about the majestic playing of the Vienna Phil.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on March 13, 2009, 06:33:38 PM
The chief credentials of Harnoncourt's Bruckner recordings are the orchestra's nonpareil, sui generis response to the Bruckner idiom.  I honestly don't think any positive aspects of these performances have much, if any to do with Harnoncourt's conducting. For the Philharmoniker, Harnoncourt is "one of the boys", if an eccentric progeny. But better to hear it in his/their performance than in an unidiomatic one.

Now, what constitutes an idiomatic Bruckner performance.. ? Hasn't he become a "universal" composer, like Mahler 15-20 years before him? Responses to his scores may vary widely, the reception by the listener will also vary. There is no single answer. Bruckner has finally come of age  :D.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 02, 2009, 07:53:48 PM
TTT. I wrote this in the main thread, but for fellow brucknerites who didn't read it, here it is:

Today: Bruckner 6, Boston symphony, William Steinberg. A surprising entry into the 6th sweepstakes. Steinberg is a master conductor whoo knows exactly how to pace the work. Although it clocks in at under 53 minutes, it sounds very expansive and patient. Steinberg indulges into many phrase end easings (not exactly ritards, but a broadening of tempo that makes the paragraph end with a sort of pedal point before the next one begins. Clever and very effective. He manages the codas of I and esp. 4 with immense power yet an absolute control of the heavy traffic. I've not theard the symphony end with such grandeur allied to perfect clarity. What's surprising is that much of the time the orchestra sounds almost too rounded, as if the conductor has insisted on a central european blend. Definitely not the sound one hears with the same conductor and orchestra in another german repertoire work, Mathis der Maler. In that one, the DG engineers achieve stunning power and colour.

In short, a distinctive take on the symphony. It doesn't come across as 'die keckste'. I found Steinberg's way more brahmsian (in the good sense) than most: he ensures there's a constant flow of melodic material instead of treating the sections in stark blocks of sound.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on May 04, 2009, 12:10:18 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on May 02, 2009, 07:53:48 PM
Today: Bruckner 6, Boston symphony, William Steinberg.

Do you have the Lp, or were you lucky enough to get the Japanese CD issue?  I have two vinyl copies of this.  One is unplayable because of edge warp, and the other sounds like the stamper was underfilled (lots of ripping noises in loud passages).  Not unusual for these dynaflop pressings.  But from what I can hear, it sounds like a gorgeous recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 04, 2009, 05:48:31 PM
Neither this nor that. It's a Haydn House cd transcript from an lp. Uncharacteristically from this source, I keep hearing a slight haze - like a thin distortion layer - that mars complete sonic enjoyment. Other than that, it's obviously from a modern recording, with very spacious and wide-ranging recording. The date is October 1970.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on May 04, 2009, 11:38:30 PM
So any comments on the Zander 5?

I bring it up because it got a good review in ARG (mainly for the analysis disc) and a glowing one in Fanfare (for both performance and analysis), so I ordered it.  But then I remembered that this was a disc that Hurwitz trashed months ago.  It's one of those Hurwitz reviews, where he latches on to some detail and then the whole review follows single-mindedly from that.  I always get the impression of a howler monkey flinging poo.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on May 05, 2009, 12:44:54 AM
Quote from: Daverz on May 04, 2009, 11:38:30 PM
So any comments on the Zander 5?

I bring it up because it got a good review in ARG (mainly for the analysis disc) and a glowing one in Fanfare (for both performance and analysis), so I ordered it.  But then I remembered that this was a disc that Hurwitz trashed months ago.  It's one of those Hurwitz reviews, where he latches on to some detail and then the whole review follows single-mindedly from that.  I always get the impression of a howler monkey flinging poo.

I have literally and entirely stopped paying attention to David Hurwitz's opinions verbal/textual excretions a while ago, with no regrets whatsoever.

That having been said, I'd also welcome the feedback on the Zander Bruckner 5th. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on May 05, 2009, 05:08:52 AM
Quote from: Daverz on May 04, 2009, 11:38:30 PM
So any comments on the Zander 5?

I've also ordered it, as well as Herreweghe's. Neither has been dispatched yet, though.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 26, 2009, 05:50:23 PM
Resuming my Bruckner journey with a couple of 7ths this week. Both hailing from Munich, but both presenting so totally different artistic results as to be from different planets.

Foreword: I consider the 7th as the one Bruckner symphony where tempi/timing differences are among the least pronounced. Excepting the widely varying Adagio, the mean (average) timing for the other 3 movements is a mere 2 minutes short or in excess of 42 minutes (20-10-12). If one was to make a standard deviation study based on Berky's list, I'm quite confident it would concur with my totally unscientific opinion. The 7th is probably Bruckner's most classical symphony, his most obvious (and successful) attempt to win critical support for his ' enlarged classical symphonic structure'.

I listened first to the 2007 Thielemann performance with the Munich Philharmonic (previously manned by Celibidache). Thielemann's view is a comfy, zennish yet big-hearted one of Bruckner's most popular symphony. His conducting comes across as very controlled, intellectually unbending, if outwardly 'open' and plush-sounding. It works best in the first movement, where pure intellectual rigour will reveal the movement's beauty and perfect structure. The Adagio is also very well made, but the limits of a purely intellectual approach show the seams in the movement's various sections. They just don't connect with each other. IOW the continuity of the movement is interrupted instead of being picked up and varied in a seamless flow. This is especially apparent in the middle section. Big outbursts appear pompous and noisy instead of emotinally charged. The buildup and big climax are suitably resplendent, but the ensuing grief-laden coda doesn't register as the heart of the work - as it should be.

Good Scherzo, where nothing goes wrong - except that once again it's a bit generic - a model of its kind (better than Karajan). The Finale is too slow, and the big brass pronouncements all end on a softly voiced chord - why ?? I've always heard the last note of that musical phrase strongly articulated, not smoothly farted away. In any case, the whole thing is still powerful and beautiful, but by the end it's clear we have once more been subjected to a conductor's comment on the 7th, not a performance of the work. As if a Bruckner symphony could be subjected to the Wagner or Tchaikovsky treatment. IMO it would work much better if Schumann or Brahms had been the aesthetic models.

The other Munich performance I heard had been taped 20 years earlier (1977), across town in the Herkulessal of the Residenz. This is a BRSO performance under Karl Böhm (an Audite record). Böhm had not recorded any Bruckner between 1936 and 1971. He did the 8th in Munich (1971), then the 3rd and 4th in Vienna (Decca, 1973), the 7th and 8th in Vienna in 1976 (this time under DG with markedly different aural results), and finally the 7th in Munich again. There were a few unofficial recordings here and there (the 8th in Cologne, late fifties and again in Zurich, 1981). According to the liner notes, Böhm claims to have played al the symphonies during his carreer. I don't know about that. I would kill to have a good sounding 9th under him. No trace of that seems to have ever surfaced.

In any case, the proof of the pudding was in the listening. The first thing I noticed is how much BRSO-sounding the BRSO sounded. Böhm always respected the culture and sound of the orchestras he worked with. The BRSO is famous for its agile, slightly angular and easily moulded sound. And the Herkulessaal recordings have always been consistent in that regard: athletic mid-range, pure and shiny high frequencies, and light, transparent bass. The sound as compared to the previous year's Vienna DG recording is very different. Böhm's interpretation is also substantially different. Working in the studio (Vienna) or live (Munich) tended to accentuate Böhm's Janus-like conductorial personality: mercurial and highly combustible in concert (even well into his eighties), magisterial and formidably in control in the studio.

So, these two performances hail from the same city's two great orchestras, but could hardly be more different. The most egregious example is in the scherzo where, at practically identical tempos, they seem to be conducting two different pieces. Thielemann is grandly, smoothly symphonic (if that means anything). Böhm's conducting has an edge-of-seat, geyser-like quality to it. End of paragraph chords are punched out viciously, to tremendous effect.

The finales are very different, but thoughout I noticed the astounding work of the Munich horns (same in the first movement coda). Their gloriously strong projection and euphonious voicing crown the work in thrilling fashion. Too often the coda to these two movements are a morass of brass vying for prominence with a see of furiously sawing strings. Here there is no doubt as to how Bruckner's magnificent vision ought to triumph. An astonishing last-minute convergence of totally different views, at the service of the composer.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on May 26, 2009, 07:15:04 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 05, 2009, 05:08:52 AM
I've also ordered it, as well as Herreweghe's. Neither has been dispatched yet, though.

For me it was done in by the Telarc sound (CD layer only), which make the strings sound anemic.  I suppose it could be one of those Telarcs where you have to crank the sound way up.  I'll have to wait until the neighbors are not around to test this theory.     But I'm sure I'll be consulting the excellent analysis disc again.  I have plenty of good 5s, including the K's (Karajan, Kempe, and Klemperer), and if you want a similarly fast 5, Rögner does it 30 seconds faster.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on June 27, 2009, 03:47:12 AM
This looks quite interesting:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/MACD1227.jpg)
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_July09/MACD1227.htm

QuoteANTON BRUCKNER

Symphonies, Nos. 1-9 & Te Deum

Recording of the 1953 cycle with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra / Volkmar Andreae

Although hardly known today, the Swiss conductor Volkmar Andreae (1879-1962) belonged to the great generation of Bruckner conductors born while the composer was still in his prime. This exalted group ranged from Bruno Walter (born 1876) to F. Charles Adler (born 1889), and included such masters as Hermann Abendroth, Wilhelm Furtwängler, Otto Klemperer, Hans Knappertsbusch, and Carl Schuricht. Volkmar Andreae conducted Bruckner for half of the Twentieth Century. It is regrettable that his commercially recorded legacy is so meagre, for his eloquent advocacy surely deserved better. These Bruckner performances originally given in 1953 and archived in excellent sound for Austrian radio audiences will reward careful listening. Musicologist Kurt Blaukopf wrote concerning this historic cycle: “The performances given by the Vienna Symphony under Andreae’s direction and preserved on tape by the Austrian Radio have the significance of a musical monument.” Despite the profusion of Bruckner recordings available in modern sound, such a monument merits our enduring attention. All except the 4th Symphony previously unissued.

Music and Arts 9cds MACD1227

Sizeable preview (not for much longer)
http://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/August08/
http://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/June08/
http://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/July08/
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on June 27, 2009, 04:17:34 AM
(//)
Robert Simpson, The Essence of Bruckner
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/057505221X/goodmusicguide-20)

Thought I'd dabble with that, finally.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 28, 2009, 07:43:12 AM
The Andreae recordings should be a worthy addition for the completist. The orchestral playing is surprinsingly good in those I've heard (the ones Milos provided the links for). No doubt the boxed set will be invaluable if some effort to refurbish the sound has been made.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ChamberNut on June 28, 2009, 09:02:52 AM
Bruckner's Abbey - Composer thread with the most views.  0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Opus106 on June 28, 2009, 09:50:00 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 28, 2009, 09:02:52 AM
Bruckner's Abbey - Composer thread with the most views.  0:)

Here's the shocking bit: Elgar's thread has the most replies! It's locked yet leading RVW's by 150 posts! Rule Britannia?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ChamberNut on June 28, 2009, 09:56:06 AM
Quote from: opus106 on June 28, 2009, 09:50:00 AM
Here's the shocking bit: Elgar's thread has the most replies! It's locked yet leading RVW's by 150 posts! Rule Britannia?

Yeah..........well I think the Elgar thread had more bickering and trash talking that made up a lot of that thread, instead of pure musical discussion, hence why it was locked.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 28, 2009, 05:51:15 PM
Indeed, the Abbey is the crème de la crème among 'serious' threads... 0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2009, 05:47:56 AM
I still owe a listen at the Sixth to Cato . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: AB68 on July 13, 2009, 12:59:19 AM
Anyone familiar with these recordings?
Who is the conductor?
http://www.amazon.com/Anton-Bruckner-Symphonies-vol-Nos/dp/B001NCOLM2/ref=dm_ap_alb1/183-7858603-1948235
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 13, 2009, 03:39:20 PM
Quote from: AB68 on July 13, 2009, 12:59:19 AM
Anyone familiar with these recordings?
Who is the conductor?
http://www.amazon.com/Anton-Bruckner-Symphonies-vol-Nos/dp/B001NCOLM2/ref=dm_ap_alb1/183-7858603-1948235

Check here (http://www.abruckner.com/news/therozhdestvenskyd/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on July 13, 2009, 05:51:20 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 13, 2009, 03:39:20 PM
Check here (http://www.abruckner.com/news/therozhdestvenskyd/)

Thanks for helping the emptor to cavere.  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 14, 2009, 04:54:30 PM
Sure, much caveat was in order here !!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 16, 2009, 02:07:54 PM
Listened to this  week: the 8th with the Bamberger Symphoniker under Eugen Jochum. It dates from June 1982 and was recorded in THE abbey (St-Florian, that is !). Also from St-Florian, played on Bruckner's organ: about half an hour of organ pieces, mainly preludes and fugues. These predate the symphonies. But far from being immature or half balked, they are fully formed gems. Unlike the symphonies though, they are terse in expression, concentrated in form, and pack a wallop within their 6-7 minutes duration. For those who yawn waiting for the next orchestral climax, that could be a good fix !

Both items are on the Download of the Month (http://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/August2009/) page from John Berky's Bruckner site. The organ pieces are from the same year. The whole progtram seems to have been offered as a 2LP set by the Austrian Radio. I downloaded and burned it to disc, putting the organ works first, and the symphony second. since it clocks in at 82 minutes, it doesn't fit on a single cd.

Is it worth it? I've already hinted at the great value of the organ pieces (very rare on record). There is another 1982 Jochum Bamberg version out there, dating from September, and recorded in concert (80 minutes, and fitting on a single cd when burned). I haven't put it back in the player to compare (will do tonight), but if memory serves, it was a bit tidier (2 minutes shorter and no clunkers), and the recording was resplendent. This St-Florian version is well recorded too, but in different acoustics. There are some strange balances (very forward wind choir) that may have to do with microphone placement. The timpani are sometimes extremely loud, while at other times they rumble in the background. This is a bit disconcerting.

Other than that, this is a quite extraordinary interpretation. Like the 09.1982 version, it presents Jochum's Bruckner in much better light than the 2 commercial recordings, where he is sometimes impatient, sometimes erratic, and fails to deliver the coda as the apotheosis it should be. The first movement and esp. the scherzo are very dramatic, with heavy accenting of the downbeats. Timings are slower than DG or EMI by 2 and 1 minute respectively. This Adagio is 2 minutes slower than any other Jochum (they are all in the 27 minutes range). It is seraphically beautiful, very moving, and there is no gratuitous acccelerando to the huge climax (IMO it disfigures his 2 commercial readings). He cleverly saves maximum dynamic range for the second portion of the climax, like two big waves, the second more powerful than the first. Great string and brass playing in IV. As mentioned before, the timpani don't swamp the orchestra in the couple of outbursts midway in, but they attack savagely in the last one just before the coda. Hearing the 09.1982 coda is the main reason I'll put it back tonight, because if I'm not mistaken, this St-Florian is the most glorious I'ver ever heard. Böhm in Zürich, Cologne and esp. Vienna offer a hugely dramatic, overwhelmingly powerful experience, but he makes the music sound deeply grim and tragic. Here, Jochum lets it build and open up in an exultant expression of unmitigated triumph. It has a surge, a lift that pinned me to my seat ( I know, it's an oxymoron  :D). Fantastic voicing of the last three chords, complete with a huge ritard.

There's a later Jochum 8th (1984, 79 minutes, on Tahra). It hails from Amsterdam, and although it's beautiful and very, very fine, I think it yields in power to these two Bamberg versions. So, be warned about strange balances and the occasional trumpet crack, but do hear it yourself with this free download !
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on August 16, 2009, 03:18:40 PM
I am in a quandry.
Which if the two sets would you pick up first - the Chailly or the Barenboim?
Please advise.  I am thinking the Chailly, but Barenboim has GOT to be good...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on August 16, 2009, 10:53:16 PM
Quote from: John on August 16, 2009, 03:18:40 PM
I am in a quandry.
Which if the two sets would you pick up first - the Chailly or the Barenboim?
Please advise.  I am thinking the Chailly, but Barenboim has GOT to be good...

I'm not the biggest fan of either, to be honest, but between the two I clearly favor Chailly.
I should point out that Sergeant disagrees with my Barenboim-Bruckner assessment, but of his Berlin
cycle, I consider No.5 a questionably engineered mess* and much of the rest not much above average. The
9th is brilliant, admittedly, and the 1st (+ Helgoland) very good. But both can be gotten individually
with ease and for little money.

[* With potential on great speakers, but even then not a favorite interpretation of mine]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on August 17, 2009, 05:08:29 AM
Thank you J.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 17, 2009, 10:48:43 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 16, 2009, 10:53:16 PM
I'm not the biggest fan of either, to be honest, but between the two I clearly favor Chailly.
I should point out that Sergeant disagrees with my Barenboim-Bruckner assessment, but of his Berlin
cycle, I consider No.5 a questionably engineered mess*
[/size]

Yes, I prefer Barenboim...mainly because his interpretations are quite individual. You won't hear anything like his Second and Fifth from anyone else. Chailly has the better sound but I find his Bruckner (save his glorious Seventh) rather pedestrian. But really, Jens is not wrong. It's a matter of taste here and I would not be disappointed if you chose Chailly.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on August 17, 2009, 02:48:13 PM
I will disagree with J and agree with Sarge. The Barenboim/BPO set is musically possibly the most consistent Bruckner set out there. The performances of Nos.1, 2, 6, 5 and 9 are among my top choices for those symphonies and none of the rest are weak. The sound is admittedly slightly odd in some of the recordings. These were all live performances at the Philharmonie in Berlin and while that is a wonderful acoustic space to listen to a performance as an audience member, it seems to be treacherous for recordings. I have yet to hear a recording that adequately represents the space. That being said, none of it is a 'mess' in any sense and on some of them , e.g. No.2, the sound is very good.

The Chailly set lacks consistency. There are some truly outstanding performances, e.g. 6 & 7, but also some completely forgettable ones, of which No.9 is probably the worst - a completely pale, lifeless thing that just sort of goes by. A real downer, given that in many ways those three surviving movements are Bruckner's crowning achievement. The sound on the Chailly is superb, though!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 26, 2009, 07:58:05 PM

The 8th symphony:

I recently listened to 3 different discs under Eugen Jochum. This conductor's interpretations range from 73 to 83 minutes, and are either of the Haas version or the Nowak one. He switched allegiances to Nowak when the latter's text was published (Nowak got rid of Haas' adjuncts to Bruckner's 'final' text). And, contrary to what often happens, his tempi did not necessarily become broader with age. They simply varied back and forth, depending on the occasion. I suppose Jochum was very adaptable, and also very sensitive to a performance's conditions (audience, orchestra, hall acoustics).

In any case, these 3 were: 06.1982 and 09.1985 with the Bamberg Symphony, and 09.1984 in Amsterdam. The June '82 was taped in St-Florian. There is no sign of an audience. Not a peep, and no applause at the end. The September is definitely a concert taping, as there is thunderous applause  as soon as the last chord is counded. They are very much on the same wavelength (obviously), but curiously, the live September is the more settled of the two. Even more settled is the 09.84 Amsterdam concert. If you like a firm hand and even pacing within movements, allied to great orchestral playing, this Tahra recording is excellent (but a bit congested in sound). The St-Florian is a performance of extremes. It's by a substantial margin the most interesting Jochum version of any Bruckner symphony I've heard. It's available as a free download on John Berky's web site. In both Bamberg performances the orchestra is superb. But in St-Florian the trumpets and timpani have a field day. This is absolutely glorious.

The 8 th is certainly Brukner's most chameleon-like composition. It's the one where original and final versions differ most, and even the final versions are not quite the same (Haas reinstates some 2-4 minutes of music the composer had cut in his final revision). Tempi vary quite extraordinarily here too. Between the fastest and slowest there is almost 40 minutes' difference :o. Of course everybody will have guessed the identity of the slowest (Celibidache, Munich Philharmonic), but would you guess who is the speed merchant that finishes off under 65 minutes? Hint: it's from an austrian conductor known for his genial, relaxed interpretations of the classic and romantic repertoire.

Considering the range of possibilities out there, I've decided to listen to a selection of recordings by order of speed. I want to experience what is gained and what is lost - if anything - when tempi are gradually broadened. So I started with the aforementioned mean speed merchant, namely Joseph Krips. This is from a NY concert and dates from 1961. Obviously it's not for the mainstream collector. The orchestra plays quite well, the sound is reasonably listenable, although it tends to blast noxiously at times. There is no feeling of the music being rushed. Climaxes are vigorous and quite militant, rythms constantly well-sprung, and transitions are on the speedy side. The coda starts well, but the sudden accelerando in the last minute makes the whole edifice topple forward with nothing to stop it, except the last chord, theatrically drawn out. Exciting but messy. If one is to figure what can be lost with very fast tempi, this is a good case study. What is gained is a sense of beethovenian (norringtonian?) impatience. Some would probably like it. Until a well-played, well-recorded modern performance comes along, this is likely to remain the fastest ever, by a fair margin (the even shorter Koussevitsky is severely cut).

In the same vein, but coming from a totally different background and culture, there is the Lodia Carlos Païta (Lodia is a defunct swiss label). This was recordeed digitally in 1982 in London's famed Kingsway Hall. The orchestra is a pickup band of professionals from London's many symphony orchestras. Don't look for the 'Symphonic Philharmonic Orchestra'. It was Païta's 'private' orchestra and came into existence solely for the purpose of his recordings. In any case, it's a superb band, superbly recorded. Brass are the strongest and most sonorous you'll find anywhere. Listen to the amazing 'buzz' of the low brass and marvel at the loudest and most spectacularly recorded timpani on disc. This is a very  'physical' execution of this most mystical work - okay, Bruckner was to be even more mystical in the 9th, but you get the idea. It's quite like watching this kind of guy

(http://www.productionmyarts.com/blog/wp-content/homme-de-vitruve-michael-phelps.jpg)

walk into this kind of place:

(http://docenti.lett.unisi.it/files/3/1/1/15/Laon.jpg).

You can imagine both, like both, but it kind of clashes. In any case, this is an extremely special account of the work and I wouldn't want to be without it. Bruckner on poppers.

Next in line are other very fast 8ths: Böhm's 1971 Munich (BRSO) and 1978 Zürich versions. Among the fastest ever committed on record. Again, no link between speed and chronology: these two are the fastest, while the slowest (the commercial DG WP version) was done in between. And of course there are others, placed differently in terms of chronology and speed.

Edited for typos (it was late last night ;D).

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on August 27, 2009, 03:17:16 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 26, 2009, 07:58:05 PM
The 8th symphony:


Considering the range of possibilities out there, I've decided to listen to a selection of recordings by order of speed. I want to experience what is gained and what is lost - if anything - when tempi are gradually broadened. So I started with the aforementioned mean speed merchant, namely Josef Krips. This is from a NY concert and dates from 1961. Obviously it's not for the mainstream collector. The orchestra plays quite well, the sound is reasonably listenable, although it tends to blast noxiously at times. There is no feeling of the music being rushed. Climaxes are vigorous and quite militant, rythms constantly well-sprung, and transitions are on the speedy side. The coda starts well, but the sudden accelerando in the last minute makes the whole edifice topple forward with nothing to stop it, except the last chord, theatrically drawn out. Exciting but messy. If one is to figure what can be lost with very fast tempi, this is a good case study. What is gained is a sense of beethovenian (norringtonian?) impatience. Some would probably like it.

Me. ;D Not for everyone and not for everyday but it's a hell of a ride.

QuoteIn the same vein, but coming from a totally different background and culture, there is the Lodia Carlos Païta (Lodia is a defunct swiss label).

Me likes that one as well.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 27, 2009, 05:37:50 AM
Me likes both too, but I'm first to admit they're not for the faint hearted. They make a good case for Bruckner in 'Rage over a lost penny' mood.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 27, 2009, 06:02:45 AM
Do any of you know whether this:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/88/bd/72dc225b9da07e93d4c8c010.L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

and the B9 from this set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5159v0F5jQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Are the same recording?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 27, 2009, 01:38:59 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 26, 2009, 07:58:05 PM
In the same vein, but coming from a totally different background and culture, there is the Lodia Carlos Païta (Lodia is a defunct swiss label)...

I have some Païta discs (Dvorak, Brahms...he's always good for a unique take on familiar music) but I missed this Bruckner. It sounds like something I have to have. Thanks for the review.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on August 27, 2009, 05:42:06 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 27, 2009, 06:02:45 AM
Do any of you know whether this:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/88/bd/72dc225b9da07e93d4c8c010.L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

and the B9 from this set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5159v0F5jQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Are the same recording?

As far as I know, there is only one Mravinsky Bruckner 9th on record. However, someone more erudite (Drasko?) is certainly welcome to correct me. In fact, I'd be very interested in a hypothetical alternative recording to the one on Brilliant/Melodiya.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on August 28, 2009, 03:26:26 AM
Berky's discography only lists one recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 29, 2009, 06:55:14 AM
The 8th again, Karl Böhm and the Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra (live, 1978) (http://img.amazon.ca/images/I/417H3Y2Q50L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I've listened to this a few times since it was issued a few years ago. My response has been mixed every time. I think I've nailed that version by now and can give it a fair assessment.

First of all, it should be noted that this is the last extant B 8 under Böhm. By 1978 he was already 84 years old. DGG has his 1976 studio Vienna version, The GCOC series set has the 1974 Cologne version, and the Audite has a 1971 Munich (Bavarian radio) studio take. It should be noted that all of these are from Böhm's last years and yet, 3 of them clock in at quite speedy tempi. They vary substantially, too: in ascending chronological order: 71:55 (1971), 73:30 (1974), 80:00 (1976) and 72:00 (surprise: 1978!). The latter is the one I've listened to yesterday. I haven't heard the live 1969 New York Phil reocrding. One thing seems to emerge: Böhm came to the 8th very late in his carreer, more than 30 years after his seminal recordings of 4 and 5 in Dresden. He may have conducted it before, but no trace of an earlier concert has emerged. Böhm was one of the most prominent conductors of the last century, and his carreer is exceedingly well documented on records. therefore it would be very strange if an earlier take would have gone unrecorded. So here it is, an old conductor's surprisingly youthful view of this orchestral behemoth.

Second thing one notices is the sound of the orchestra. It's VERY bright. This is something I have trouble adjusting to. It just seems wrong in Bruckner. I know this orchestra has recorded commercially a lot of stuff in beautiful, transparent yet warm sound (the Zinman LvB symphonies for example). So I can't tell if this is due to the hall, the conductor's balances or the engineering (live recording). Be that as it may, it makes the upper spectrum tiring to the ear and it slights the work's tonal foundations. It's like looking up to a castle perched on top of a montain, but the mountain is shrouded in clouds and mist: the castle just stands up there, and you can't see the building's connection to the ground.

To the interpretation: this is one of the fastest on record. Don't believe the booklet notes, it's Nowak, not Haas. That may be a reason why Böhm came to the work only late in his carreer: maybe he had misgivings about the accreted Haas portions. Who knows?. In any case, this is a very direct, urgent, tough, almost impatient reading. No lingering, no slowing down to smell the flowers. The test of such an approach is in the adagio. If the conductor can't relax and bring the listener to freeze and hold his breath at the moment of stasis midway through the movement, the whole reading falls to the ground and the second half of the work becomes just a series of disconnected orchestral burps and farts. The tempo needn't be very slow, it's a matter of being able to bring extraordinary concentration to the playing, especially at the lowest dynamic levels. For voice lovers, think of Montserrat Caballé's unique gift of spinning ppp high notes that project effortlessly to the farthest reaches of the opera house. Böhm pulls it off here, but barely. Maybe more a matter of that too bright sound - there's lots of subterranean goings in the basses and celli in that movement, and they are more felt than heard. The finale may be the most exciting and successful moment here. It's great from start to finish, with very few reservations. The big, manic orchestral outburst at 6:00 in is one moment that, as usual, sounds gratuitous and intempestive. I don't know what Bruckner thought and what he expected here, but it almost never fails to surprise AND disappoint - sticking out like a sore thumb. The awesome climax that dissonantly dies down and peters out in those three fateful timpani du-dums is not given the prominence it should have - not enough grandeur. The coda is Böhm at his considerable best. I think he alone can bring out the horns and trombones as he does, giving it a 'hunting' feel that is both majestic and exciting. Most conductors allow the trumpets to drown the orchestra here.

In conclusion: a great Bruckner conductor slightly below his best. Slightly disappointing considering this was to be his last testimony in that work - which he owns IMHO, thanks to his gigantic WP studio recording. Next: the 1971 BRSO (Munich) version on Audite.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 03, 2009, 06:09:37 AM
Continuing apace in my exploration of the 8th symphony, I have listened a few times to Böhm's first studio recording (1971). This was done in the concert hall (the Herkulessaal) of the Munich Residenz (the Royal Palace). It's available on the Audite label. I have no clue why this was released only in 2007. It is played by the BRSO, Kubelik's orchestra at the time.

It is immediately apparent that this is a better orchestra playing in a better hall than the Zürich Tonhalle, good as this was. Truly world class are the violin, horn and percussion sections. The violins are beautifully pure and sweet. Their playing has unfailing grace and elegance, as well as the requisite tonal heft in the tuttis. Horns are superbly robust and always play with liquid, golden tone. The 8th symphony often puts the horn section through its paces. They are always clearly heard, most notably in the coda  of IV - it's amazing how a couple of trumpets can drown the whole lot when playing loud (and there are three trumpets in this work!). As is almost always the case with this orchestra in this venue, the sound is beautifully transparent but lacking in weigth and resonance. One rarely notices what's going on in the orchestra's basement. Solid, perfectly defined timpani sound - no mere loud rumble from an uncertain location. Timpani and harps are heard clearly at all dynamic levels and have their own spatial positioning. It doesn't get better than this IMO.

Böhm's conception is urgent and fiery. Although total timing is under 72 minutes, one is never aware of any feeling of haste. But it does sound urgent, esp. in the first two movements. The Adagio is magnificent, more reposeful and more settled than in Zurich, with perfectly integrated sections. This movement can sound discursive if it's not perfectly controlled from the podium. That's the difference between one in which the attention wanders and one that holds your undivided attention throughout. The Finale is one of the best I've heard. It doesn't tramp over the listener. It's at once light and purposeful, urgent and majestic.

This is as perfect as it can be. As a listening experience it is very satisfying. Ultimately, I had the feeling everything was too controlled, too perfectly in place though. *Slightly* - very slightly - antiseptic compared to the Vienna DG version. Although that is also a studio production, it gives me the feeling I'm hearing it for the first time - every time. I'll get to that later, in due time. Next in line are a van Beinum, Barbirolli, and the Böhm Cologne from 1974.

Footnote: for those who have the Audite disc, don't believe the back cover's timings: the last 2 movements are some 2 minutes shorter each than indicated. Doesn'y anyone check these things before marketing the product?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on September 03, 2009, 11:25:54 AM
Thanks for this! Wil have to seek out t hat recording.  I have Böhm's BRSO 7th on Audite which is one of the very best.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on September 05, 2009, 07:04:36 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 03, 2009, 06:09:37 AM
Continuing apace in my exploration of the 8th symphony, I have listened a few times to Böhm's first studio recording (1971). This was done in the concert hall (the Herkulessaal) of the Munich Residenz (the Royal Palace). It's available on the Audite label.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31T8WPPN0KL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jNrqEZcdL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/fd/8d/20fc53a09da0289ee2cf6110.L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I think the Bohm/WDRSO Koln/GCOC above is my favorite 8th of all time by any conductor, the Bohm/Audite 8th is very close and a great version. Just recently got the Bohm/Audite 7 & 8 an essential addition to my Bruckner collection. I also was not as impressed with the later Bohm/Palexia with Zurich Tonnehall, but worth having as is the wonderful Bohm/DG Galleria 8th with VPO which I rank 3rd behind the Audite 8th
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on September 06, 2009, 11:53:34 AM
Still recovering from yesterday's West Coast Brucknerthon (apparently there's another one in Connecticut), by, er, listening to Bruckner again: the Muti 6th with Berlin on EMI.  If found this just sort of -- ahem -- laying about on the intertubes.  It's a very beautiful recording.

Here's the full playlist from yesterday:

- Overture in G minor: Libor Pesek/CzPO/studio/Supraphon/1986
- Scherzo from F-minor Symphony: Erwin Horn/organ trans./studio/
Novalis/1990
- B0: Solti/CSO/studio/Decca/1995
- B1: Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken RSO/studio/Arte Nova/1995
- B2: J. van Zweden /Netherlands Radio Phil. Orch./studio/Exton/2007
- B3: Matacic/Philharmonia Orch./live/BBC Legends/1983
- B4: Asahina/Osaka Phil./live/Exton/2000
- B5: Celibidache/MPO/live/private DVD/1985
- B6: Muti/BPO/studio/EMI/1988
- B7: Blomstedt/Leipzig Gewandhaus/live/Querstand/2006
- B8: Karajan/VPO/live at St. Florian/DG DVD/1979
- B9: Jochum/BPO/live/Palexa/1977

The live Jochum 9th was deeply moving.  BRO still lists it for $8. (http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=295&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=&filter=all)  The Matacic and Asahina recordings were also impressive.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 06, 2009, 05:55:47 PM
There's a few here I don't know. But that shouldn't be surprising. I guess there are more Bruckner symphony recordings out there than Schumann, Sibelius and Prokofieff combined. This is not necessarily a reflection of intrinsic musical value, but it does goes to show how much interest and variety of perceptions are held among music lovers.

I notice there's a St-Florian WP Karajan 8th in that list. What date is it from?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on September 06, 2009, 06:27:12 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 06, 2009, 05:55:47 PM
I notice there's a St-Florian WP Karajan 8th in that list. What date is it from?

Symphony 8 - June 1979
Symphony 9 - May 1978

This has to be the best Bruckner DVD available for sound performance (not picture quality), not only is the 8th wonderful performance in beautiful baroque church setting that has tremendous sense of huge space, but the 9th is even better, a reference! Night time performance that is best Bruckner 9th I have heard by any conductor, ranks right up there with Giulini/VPO 9th as best available.......HVK is just unstoppable, electric live performance that soars to the heavens and lifts ones spirit upwards. I had the Karajan/VPO live 9th on an Andante Bruckner 7,8,9 collection and later found out it is same performance as on this essential DVD

Perhaps I should let Daverz answer that though............. :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/3147yHhYxFL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31X6F2M6R6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 06, 2009, 07:13:23 PM
Thanks! So this predates Karajan's WP studio performance on DG by almost 10 years, then. I'll try to locate it - and the 9th. I've never been convinced by Karajan's  view of the 8th - ponderous, glutinous and amorphous in 1957, bronzenly militant but still forbidding in 1976, and finally relaxedly sweet yet jupiterian in 1988. But even then, I've never been able to shake the feeling that Karajan was uncharacteristically gloomy and slow in 5 and 8, whereas his various takes on the 9th have been characterized by rigor, vigor, brazen attacks and almost harsh orchestral sound. Bruckner in Siegfried geist, as opposed to his Götterdämmerung Prologue mood when playing the 8th symphony.

I notice St-Florian has been the venue for quite a few Bruckner recordings (Jochum, Boulez and others, mostly of symphonies 8 and 9). This Karajan interp of 8 and 9 ought to be in my collection - alas, I don't have a DVD player connected to my sound system. Maybe there's a CD  issue out there?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on September 07, 2009, 04:59:28 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 06, 2009, 07:13:23 PM
Thanks! So this predates Karajan's WP studio performance on DG by almost 10 years, then. I'll try to locate it - and the 9th. I've never been convinced by Karajan's  view of the 8th - ponderous, glutinous and amorphous in 1957, bronzenly militant but still forbidding in 1976, and finally relaxedly sweet yet jupiterian in 1988. But even then, I've never been able to shake the feeling that Karajan was uncharacteristically gloomy and slow in 5 and 8, whereas his various takes on the 9th have been characterized by rigor, vigor, brazen attacks and almost harsh orchestral sound. Bruckner in Siegfried geist, as opposed to his Götterdämmerung Prologue mood when playing the 8th symphony.

I notice St-Florian has been the venue for quite a few Bruckner recordings (Jochum, Boulez and others, mostly of symphonies 8 and 9). This Karajan interp of 8 and 9 ought to be in my collection - alas, I don't have a DVD player connected to my sound system. Maybe there's a CD  issue out there?

I should mention the live VPO 9th and Te Deum is not at St Florians but at the Vienna Music Hall, a night performance that is a bit darker than ideal picture wise. The gold trim and gold statuary gives off a shimmering glow, the chandelliers are impressively oppulent, brass instruments seem illuminated from a force within, and as mentioned the performance is not to be missed.

The St Florian 8th is not on CD to my knowledge, only on this DVD.
As far as HVK commercial CDs of 8th I don't really care for his 1957 version for EMI........slow and diffuse. A much more focused and powerful version for 1976 complete DG set which is probably my favorite, and the majestic 1988 VPO which has many merits and is very beautiful if lacking the dramatic power needed to fully draw out this work. HVK versions 7,9 are in a rare exalted class, his final VPO 7th perhaps the best Bruckner recording by anyone.

HVK has so many great 9ths hard to choose.......so I just get them all, but the live VPO 9th from DVD above or the Andante set (Bohm 7th, Furtwangler 8th, Karajan 9th) tops them all and best 9th ever for me along with Giulini/VPO/DG
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on September 07, 2009, 11:27:23 AM
The East Coast Brucknerthon was a more ambitious affair starting at 8 AM!  Here's their playlist:

1) Symphony in F Minor Dong-Ho Lee / JeJu Philharmonic (Korea)                                              
2) Symphony No. 1 (1866) Georg Tintner / Scottish National Orchestra                                        
3) Symphony in D Minor Gennadi Rozhdestvensky / USSR Ministry of Culture =                                  
Orchestra                                                                                                  
4) Symphony No. 2 (1872) Herbert Blomstedt / Montreal Symphony Orchestra                                    
5) Symphony No. 3 (1874) Akira Naito / Tokyo New City Orchestra                                            
6) Symphony No. 4 Giuseppe Sinopoli / Philharmonia Orchestra (DVD)                                          
7) Symphony No. 5 Heinz Roegner / Berlin Symphony Orchestra                                                
8) Symphony No. 6 (Hynais) Ira Levin / Norrlands Opera Orchestra                                            
9) Symphony No. 7 Eugen Jochum / Concertgebouw Orchestra (DVD)                                              
10) Symphony No. 8 Takashi Asahina / Osaka Philharmonic (DVD)                                              
11) Symphony No. 9 Fabio Luisi / Dresden Staatskapelle (SACD)                                              
12) Symphony No. 9 (Carragan Finale completion) Naito / Tokyo N.C.O.                                  

A full report is here. (http://www.abruckner.com/news/theeastcoastbruckn/)  The West Coast group is somewhat more casual and chatty.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on September 07, 2009, 12:40:24 PM
September 14th we'll have a Euro-Brucknerathon*:

Symphony No.3
1973 Original Version
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IMCoEvVKL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00140L7CU?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00140L7CU)
Norrington, Stuttgart RSO
Haenssler

Nowak Edition, 1888/89
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5179N3VVEVL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000IG2Z?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00000IG2Z)
Celibidache, Munich PO
EMI

Symphony No.4
Nowak Edition, 1880, rev.1886
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41P023X8HHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000E40P?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00000E40P)
Sinopoli, Dresden St.Kp.
DG

"Original Version" (which means :1878-80 revised Original, of course.  ;D)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Y2NCARASL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000267VC?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0000267VC)
Roegner, RSO Berlin
Eterna - Berlin Classics

Symphony No.5
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/417oe2Znw3L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000R7HRCA?ie=UTF8&tag=jlaurson-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B000R7HRCA)
Celibidache, Munich PO in Tokyo
Altus

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21RGEGY6YRL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000059BM?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0000059BM)
Karajan, Vienna SO
Orfeo D'Or

Symphony No.6
Haas Edition
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515S0943JJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000IG32?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00000IG32)
Celibidache, Munich PO
EMI

"Original Verson"
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Di0KqltSL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0018RR282?ie=UTF8&tag=jlaurson-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B0018RR282)
Wand, Munich PO
Profil Haenssler


Symphony No.7
"with"
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41cYFMJveyL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000VPNK5Q?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000VPNK5Q)
Haitink, Chicago SO
CSO live

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SZQK07K7L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000024WGM?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000024WGM)
Chailly, RSO Berlin
Decca

Symphony No.8[/size]
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/0c/b8/c34f225b9da09210dc970110.L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000059B0?ie=UTF8&tag=nectarandambr-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0000059B0)
Kubelik, BRSO
Orfeo D'or

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TvGGKPvFL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001HBX92C?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B001HBX92C)
Haitink, Dresden St.Kp.
Profil Haenssler


Symphony No.9[/size]
Nowak Edition
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416K5KAEQGL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000001GAM?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000001GAM)
Giulini, WPh
DG

Samale Edition with completed 4th movement (Samale-Phillips-Cohrs-Mazzuca).
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bFhvG1UpL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001A8HU04?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B001A8HU04)
Bosch, Aachen SO
Coviello Classics


(* If I'm not off to the mountains. And it'd be a Brucknerthon of one [cat optional]. Without logos, presentations, cookies et al. Holy cow... I thought that was a joke until I followed the link to the website. The idea scares me, though...)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on September 07, 2009, 08:50:13 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 07, 2009, 12:40:24 PM
like Dungeons & Dragons clubs for old people, except with music and Olive-Garden instead of Dominoes. Yikes.)

A cheapshot.

Here's an interesting review of the recordings at the East Coast event by Sol Siegel (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_thread/thread/4c1b07da16f9c697#).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 08, 2009, 05:22:32 PM
Quote from: Daverz on September 07, 2009, 08:50:13 PM
A cheapshot.

Here's an interesting review of the recordings at the East Coast event by Sol Siegel (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_thread/thread/4c1b07da16f9c697#).

Very interesting reviews, thanks for that!. I'm happy to see that my high opinion of the Montreal performance wasn't prejudiced by hometown pride. It certainly was a night to remember.... 0:)

Regarding Rögner's 5th, I concur with Siegel's view that it's an idiosyncratic performance. But, as he infers, it's a hell of a ride :o. Interestingly, the same label (Berlin Classics) has another East Berlin performance (Suitner) that rivals Rögner's for thrills. It's actually 2 minutes faster in the first two movements, but in III Suitner relaxes and he makes the finale a suitably grand culmination. Both are among my favourites.

What the annual Brucknerthons show is that there is no such thing as a single conductor's cycle parading as a one stop shop reference. There is not even a single kind of approach that can be deemed superior to others (fast or slow, dynamically charged or grandiosely magnificent - call that what you like). Great Bruckner performances defy categorization.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on September 12, 2009, 12:26:45 AM
(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/36/2/4/171.jpg)

HMV Japan has XRCDs of Kempe's 4th and 5th.  I'm primarily interested in the 5th, which I have on Odyssey Lps.  Only ¥3800! (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/3624171)  With shipping it would only be ¥5000 for one symphony.  Yet I'm tempted.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on September 12, 2009, 12:43:56 PM
Don't know the 5th, but I have the 4th in the Great Conductors EMI/IMG series. Beautiful performance. Expansive but alive. Worth having.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 12, 2009, 07:39:22 PM
8 th symphony roundup: Barbirolli and the Hallé Orchestra.

This is a concert taping from the Royal festival Hall, London (an ungrateful venue). Hailing from 1970, it's among Barbirolli's last recordings. A few things have to be mentioned: it's supposed to be stereo, but I hear everything as from a mono perspective (on speakers - if it's stereo, maybe it can be discerned on headphones). The sound as captured is loud and clear. And I do mean LOUD. There are no pp or ppp to be heard anywhere. It's all right there before the listener as bright as daylight. Very good for the end of I and the timpani taps before the coda of IV. In concert, one 'feels'  those as well as hearing them. But on disc, they more often than not go for naught - too many p's from the conductor, too much distance form the microphones, or simply lost in translation (from microphone to tape to disc). These are pivotal moments in the symphony, and I always feel cheated when they disappear from the aural perspective. That is emphatically not the case here (a good point). As is the low brass' sonorous rasps and buzzes.  The Hallé brass play mostly very well (there are clams), and the timpani are thrilling. Strings are a bit light, with little weight to their massed sound.

The interpretation is certainly of the first order. Barbirolli pulls and goads the rythms in the introduction to I - great conducting here, it neither interferes with the music's flow nor does it impose an alien aesthetic. There's a case for treating this movement like the first movement of Schubert's 9th. Brass snarl and timpani thunder. The climax is very well prepared and delivered. As mentioned the end is suitably ominous, but admittedly too loud.

The scherzo is one of the best. I like a snappy tang to the rythms. No fudged lines here, no legatoing of the important viola part à la Karajan. The Adagio begins with trembling violins (few conductors do that to this extent, except maybe Jochum) and the movement proceeds in broad paragraphs. The climax is not shattering, the orchestra seemingly unable to give the textures the saturated, glowing fullness of the best. The Finale is very good. It's hard to find faults in Barbirolli's conducting. There's a sibelian accenting of the horns and timpani in the orchestral balances. Either through microphone trickery or the conductor's balances, the horns swamp the trumpets in the coda. It's usually the other way around. The last arpeggiated chord is theatrically delivered to great effect. It doesn't sound cheap - reminds me of Thor's hammer (Sibelius 5).

One of the more interesting 8ths - substantially better than I had remembered. In the end, the mf+ dynamics tire the ear and undermine the work's gigantic aural vistas. The sound is slightly glaring - too brightly lit, too close, with insufficient bass. It slights the work, and it slights an excellent interpretation.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on September 20, 2009, 07:27:16 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, I don't generally read the Gramophone anymore these days (opting for the IRR), but I did happen to get the most recent issue, and noticed a few words on the following set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-lyLUSz5L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Now, this is the first I hear of either the man or his Bruckner legacy - but it intrigues me. It seems to be the earliest Bruckner intégrale, and worth hearing, if you trust Gramophone. Any further information you might have on Andreae or his Bruckner, though, would be most welcome! :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Opus106 on September 20, 2009, 07:33:52 AM
Quote from: Renfield on September 20, 2009, 07:27:16 AM
Any further information you might have on Andreae or his Bruckner, though, would be most welcome! :)

Sample available here (http://www.abruckner.com/Downloads/downloadofthemonth/June08/). :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Opus106 on September 20, 2009, 07:38:17 AM
Looking back in this thread, it appears that more downloads of Andreae's Bruckner were available from John Berky's website as recently as a three months ago.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,29.msg325540/topicseen.html#msg325540
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on September 20, 2009, 08:02:37 AM
Quote from: opus106 on September 20, 2009, 07:38:17 AM
Looking back in this thread, it appears that more downloads of Andreae's Bruckner were available from John Berky's website as recently as a three months ago.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,29.msg325540/topicseen.html#msg325540

Thank you.

I should have read through the thread more thoroughly, what with how piecemeal my reading of the forum has been the past few months.

And Andreae's work does appear worth hearing - I'm impressed with how natural his Bruckner sounds, in a time where (if I'm not mistaken) it was anything but! Edit: 'Natural', as in 'not like some sort of curio, or as a historical burden of debt to the composer'.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 20, 2009, 04:17:52 PM
My good friend ChooChoo has purchased the Andreae box and is in thrall over the whole thing. I have heard only 1 (both versions) and 2, courtesy of the Berky site. They are all excellent. ChooChoo singles out the 1st and 8th as particularly remarkable interpretations. I suppose the sound is improved (hopefully much improved) over the downloads I heard.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 23, 2009, 03:25:11 PM
I was sharing this with ChooChoo last weekend. I think I can recycle it here:

I've continued my Bruckner 8 listening with the Böhm Cologne and Tennstedt Boston performances. I find the latter two among the very best ever. For some reason I had never equated the Cologne among Böhm's most revelatory readings of a Bruckner symphony. But I now find it better than the Zürich and Munich versions. It is powerful and dramatic, yet very simply (i.e. naturally)  conducted. Playing and conducting are really excellent.

The Tennstedt is one of the most exciting performances I've heard. Is sizzles and crackles with electricity from start to finish. I find the Boston brass marvelous in their audacity of projection and thrilling bronzen tones. No holds barred playing. There is a feeling of chances being taken and overall the approach is triumphantly vindicated. Not an everyday reading, but one that leaves me bravo-ing with the audience. For the life of me I can't recall the source of this download. I wonder if there is a clean cd out there? This has some static in places. Annoying, but bearable.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on September 23, 2009, 04:35:50 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 23, 2009, 03:25:11 PM
I've continued my Bruckner 8 listening with the Böhm Cologne and Tennstedt Boston performances. I find the latter two among the very best ever. For some reason I had never equated the Cologne among Böhm's most revelatory readings of a Bruckner symphony. But I now find it better than the Zürich and Munich versions. It is powerful and dramatic, yet very simply (i.e. naturally)  conducted. Playing and conducting are really excellent.

Quote from: DarkAngel on September 05, 2009, 07:04:36 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31T8WPPN0KL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jNrqEZcdL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/fd/8d/20fc53a09da0289ee2cf6110.L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I think the Bohm/WDRSO Koln/GCOC above is my favorite 8th of all time by any conductor, the Bohm/Audite 8th is very close and a great version. Just recently got the Bohm/Audite 7 & 8 an essential addition to my Bruckner collection. I also was not as impressed with the later Bohm/Palexia with Zurich Tonnehall, but worth having as is the wonderful Bohm/DG Galleria 8th with VPO which I rank 3rd behind the Audite 8th

I also just recently posted here that the Bohm Cologne is my very favorite of all 8ths I have heard, it has it all
dramatic power
deep intensity
majestic sweep
solemn reverence, spirituality
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 23, 2009, 06:52:05 PM
HI, DA. I had read your post a few days ago. Good to see some interest among brucknerites for Böhm's interpretations.

ChooChoo also likes the Cologne version, but he prefers the Zürich to the Vienna version. You obviously prefer Cologne. My own favourite - has been for some 30 years - is the studio Vienna version.

So, for the record, my personal ranking would be: Vienna, Cologne, Munich and Zürich.

Right now I don't have access to my main collection. So it might be a while (2 weeks?) before I continue my recension. For those interested, I'll be listening to Böhm Vienna, Furtwängler (Berlin and Vienna), Haitink KCO (1969),  Mrawinsky, Rozhdestvensky, Kegel, possibly Boulez and a couple of others before embarking on the 2-disc sets. My goal is to listen to the most significant versions by timing order. Trying to factor in what's gained - and inevitably lost - by adopting ever slower tempi. Obviously that means ending with a Celi version :D (MPO, live form Munich). All told, probably half of a possible 50 or so versions I currently own.

So far it's been a most interesting journey. From memory and from present listening experience, here are the top achievers (whatever that means - butI know this coining does have a certain currency here ;):

- Böhm Vienna (studio DG, 1979)
- Jochum Bamberg (06.1982)
- Furtwängler Berlin 15.03.49
- Tennstedt Boston (live, 1974)
- Böhm Cologne (1974)

Really worthy runner-ups would include Païta's London Something Orchestra, Haitink KCO 1969, Kubelik BRSO 1963, van Beinum KCO and the exciting but uneven Barbirolli Hallé. All told, an exciting journey.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on September 23, 2009, 07:14:54 PM
My 2nd favorite all time Bruckner 8th (after Bohm Cologne) is from same great GCOC series Schuricht VPO, previously available coupled with great 9th........

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VBA378MVL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416HM29112L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


Not to be confused with the earlier Schuricht 8th done for Hanssler label, the later VPO version above is the superior version

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AS4YWTHKL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on September 24, 2009, 12:29:30 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 23, 2009, 03:25:11 PM


The Tennstedt is one of the most exciting performances I've heard. Is sizzles and crackles with electricity from start to finish. I find the Boston brass marvelous in their audacity of projection and thrilling bronzen tones. No holds barred playing. There is a feeling of chances being taken and overall the approach is triumphantly vindicated. Not an everyday reading, but one that leaves me bravo-ing with the audience. For the life of me I can't recall the source of this download. I wonder if there is a clean cd out there? This has some static in places. Annoying, but bearable.


That would be me. I sent the links for that broadcast recording to you and Nigel, but that was more than two years ago. Where I found it can't remember, either rmcr or operashare, but doesn't really matter, the links are long dead by now.
Only unofficial CD release was from Rediscover (according to Berky), whether their source was free of static I don't know. Don't know even if Rediscover exists anymore.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 24, 2009, 03:30:08 PM
Thanks, Milos ! Indeed it was some time ago. Nigel though it was me who sent him the link... ::). Did you hear it yourself?

Whatever the status of that particular link, the performance ought to resurface some day. It's tremendous.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on September 24, 2009, 06:28:28 PM
To add to DarkAngel's post: please do include the Schuricht/VPO version in your survey. You're missing one of the great Brucknerian dramatic rides if you leave that one out.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on September 25, 2009, 12:19:09 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 24, 2009, 03:30:08 PM
Thanks, Milos ! Indeed it was some time ago. Nigel though it was me who sent him the link... ::). Did you hear it yourself?

Yes, of course I heard it. It is one of my favorite 8ths. As can be seen here:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11096.msg275792.html#msg275792
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Opus106 on September 25, 2009, 06:41:17 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 24, 2009, 03:30:08 PM
Whatever the status of that particular link, the performance ought to resurface some day. It's tremendous.

It's out there, actually, the 1974 recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 27, 2009, 06:22:57 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on September 24, 2009, 06:28:28 PM
To add to DarkAngel's post: please do include the Schuricht/VPO version in your survey. You're missing one of the great Brucknerian dramatic rides if you leave that one out.

It just so happens that I don't have it. I listened to it in its lp incarnation over 30 years ago and never got to have it in my collection in whatever source or format. I almost came to when it was briefly available as a Rouge et Noir twofer on EMI (with the 9th - same comment). I have a 1955 NDR performance, but it's probably very different if one is to judge by timings (it's 8 minutes longer, most notably in the Adagio).

Quote
Yes, of course I heard it. It is one of my favorite 8ths. As can be seen here:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11096.msg275792.html#msg275792

Thanks, this thread had flown under my radar. I'll have a thorough look at it this week.

QuoteIt's out there, actually, the 1974 recording.

Out there where ?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Opus106 on September 27, 2009, 08:51:18 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 27, 2009, 06:22:57 PM
Out there where ?


In your PM inbox, that's where. ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Keemun on September 28, 2009, 06:25:10 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 27, 2009, 06:22:57 PM
Out there where ?

Quote from: opus106 on September 27, 2009, 08:51:18 PM
In your PM inbox, that's where. ;)

This is probably the same version that Navneeth has, as I believe we obtained it from the same source. ;)  Nevertheless, I'll post the links to my copy if you (or anyone else) wants to check it out. 

Bruckner: Symphony No. 8
Klaus Tennstedt
Boston Symphony Orchestra
December 20, 1974
From off-the-air open reel
FLAC files

http://www.mediafire.com/?zhglzyulgye
http://www.mediafire.com/?lgjq3en0ktw
http://www.mediafire.com/?ztgjimml2wn
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Opus106 on September 28, 2009, 06:29:19 AM
Quote from: Keemun on September 28, 2009, 06:25:10 AM
This is probably the same version that Navneeth has, as I believe we obtained it from the same source. ;) 

Indeed. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: greg on September 28, 2009, 08:03:14 AM
Quote from: Keemun on September 28, 2009, 06:25:10 AM
This is probably the same version that Navneeth has, as I believe we obtained it from the same source. ;)  Nevertheless, I'll post the links to my copy if you (or anyone else) wants to check it out. 

Bruckner: Symphony No. 8
Klaus Tennstedt
Boston Symphony Orchestra
December 20, 1974
From off-the-air open reel
FLAC files

http://www.mediafire.com/?zhglzyulgye
http://www.mediafire.com/?lgjq3en0ktw
http://www.mediafire.com/?ztgjimml2wn
Nice! Can't wait to listen.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on September 28, 2009, 08:24:44 AM
Ta! I only had it in mp3.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: greg on September 28, 2009, 10:09:44 AM
Quote from: Keemun on September 28, 2009, 06:25:10 AM
This is probably the same version that Navneeth has, as I believe we obtained it from the same source. ;)  Nevertheless, I'll post the links to my copy if you (or anyone else) wants to check it out. 

Bruckner: Symphony No. 8
Klaus Tennstedt
Boston Symphony Orchestra
December 20, 1974
From off-the-air open reel
FLAC files

http://www.mediafire.com/?zhglzyulgye
http://www.mediafire.com/?lgjq3en0ktw
http://www.mediafire.com/?ztgjimml2wn
For anyone who hasn't listened to this yet, just beware. At the very end, almost at the same time the last chord is struck, a guy yells "BRAVO!" extremely loud.
I love the enthusiasm, but... it scared the hell out of me!  :o
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on September 28, 2009, 10:16:23 AM
Quote from: Greg on September 28, 2009, 10:09:44 AM
For anyone who hasn't listened to this yet, just beware. At the very end, almost at the same time the last chord is struck, a guy yells "BRAVO!" extremely loud.
I love the enthusiasm, but... it scared the hell out of me!  :o

Ick, a nice Bruckner/CSO 4 from Barenboim was also ruined by that. What's with US audiences and the bravos? :'(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Keemun on September 28, 2009, 10:48:38 AM
Quote from: Lethe on September 28, 2009, 10:16:23 AM
Ick, a nice Bruckner/CSO 4 from Barenboim was also ruined by that. What's with US audiences and the bravos? :'(

It's a sign of sophistication.  ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on September 28, 2009, 11:30:32 AM
Quote from: Lethe on September 28, 2009, 08:24:44 AM
Ta! I only had it in mp3.

Ditto! :) Not to mention my old copy was lost when the laptop it was stored in fried before I'd backed it up.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 28, 2009, 02:38:27 PM
Quote from: opus106 on September 27, 2009, 08:51:18 PM

In your PM inbox, that's where. ;)

Oh, thanks !! Will download it right after typing this!  :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: greg on September 28, 2009, 02:52:08 PM
Quote from: Keemun on September 28, 2009, 10:48:38 AM
It's a sign of sophistication.  ::)
They might think that.  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on October 26, 2009, 06:14:08 PM
I've still to acquire the Andreae cycle, alas. :( However, speaking of Tennstedt, I noticed Testament are continuing their archival explorations (http://testament.co.uk/default.aspx?PageID=74) with a number of Tennstedt's appearances with the Berlin Philharmonic, including - crucially - performances of Bruckner's 4th and 8th!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Opus106 on October 28, 2009, 01:03:29 AM
I've seen some praise for the recording of the 7th, played by the Dresden Staatskapelle, with Blomstedt conducting, on Denon. And IIRC, it was also said to be OOP. FYI: it has been re-issued by another label, called Del Sagno (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Dal%2BSegno/DSPRCD046).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on October 28, 2009, 09:42:02 AM
Quote from: opus106 on October 28, 2009, 01:03:29 AM
I've seen some praise for the recording of the 7th, played by the Dresden Staatskapelle, with Blomstedt conducting, on Denon. And IIRC, it was also said to be OOP. FYI: it has been re-issued by another label, called Del Sagno (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Dal%2BSegno/DSPRCD046).

I'm pretty sure it's been discussed, if not in this thread, then certainly in other places in this forum more than once. :)

For what it's worth, I find it a very suave and beguiling account, with nuanced, excellent playing. But it's still not above the sheer beauty of the EMI Karajan, the 'meaningfulness' of the latter DG Karajan, or the humanity of the Walter, IMO. In my book, it's a very solid A.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on October 29, 2009, 09:34:07 AM
Anyone plan on getting the just released Rozy Bruckner set on Venezia label recorded in 1980s?
Available at HMV Japan for one...........

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/36/8/1/178.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on October 29, 2009, 10:15:46 AM
I doubt that they could possibly have corrected the unlistenable mixing quality of those recordings...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 01, 2009, 05:30:29 PM
An earlier (1970) Rozhdestvensky 9th is available for free download on John Berky's site. Never issued on cd.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on November 11, 2009, 02:21:12 AM
This is a great thread for a relatively new Bruckner fan!  Great reads on every page here.

For the last three years or so I've been making my way through these works...very very slowly, as I still haven't heard the 00,0,1st, and 3rd Symphonies...but I enjoy this slow process, and I'm getting to know 4-9 very well by means of a variety of recordings on LP and CD.

At present, I have been enjoying Celibidache's Munchner cycle on EMI.  Tonight I heard his Bruckner 4 and was lost in a world of enchantment...totally blown away by the nostalgic reverie I heard in the performance.

Also, the F Minor Mass from this set...very incredible.

I've heard the 9 from this set again and again...what can I say that hasn't been told through better reviews?  Simply great in every way.

Also...have been enjoying this set, and the stunning transfers:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2008/July08/Bruckner_Furtwangler_CD1209.jpg)

The 1951 VPO #4 is out of this world.




Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on November 11, 2009, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: Leo K on November 11, 2009, 02:21:12 AM
Also...have been enjoying this set, and the stunning transfers:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2008/July08/Bruckner_Furtwangler_CD1209.jpg)

The 1951 VPO #4 is out of this world.

This is indeed a diamond of a box set; although that having been said, I have some reservations over the remastering for the 8th, which I find a little brighter (if harsher) in its DG incarnation...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 11, 2009, 11:44:00 AM
Continuing my journey through various versions of the 8th. I'm not sure I had mentioned my gameplan for this series? Timing (tempi) is the key: I've started with the fastest ones and am proceeding through some 30 versions, which will end with a Munich Celi performance of some 100 minutes's duration (the Audior one, not the EMI). I'm interested to feel what is gained, what is lost, and how the character of the work changes as the conductor adopts broader tempi and (I think it's a corollary) 'looser' orchestral textures.

Last in the sequence were the Klemperer Cologne, Mrawinsky (from the Melodya Mrawinsky edition), von Matacic NHK. I then inadvertently jumped the queue by playing an Osaka Asahina recording (it should have come later as it's much broader).

The Klemperer Cologne (live, 06.1957, Nowak) is a great performance, marred only by ho-hum sound (serviceable is the operative word). As ususal with Klemperer, there are no 'niceties' in this performance. It's tough, urgent, gritty and somewhat unpredictable. Tempi in the first two movements are on the moderate side of things (14:12 and 14:25). This is the stoic, unsentimental kapellmeister at work. In the last two movements the performance acquires a sense of urgency. Timings are on the fast side (22:32 and 20:44). Klemperer often took fast movements slowly, and slow ones flowingly. In any case, it's a convincing approach. This is unsentimental, unsensational, unvarnished Bruckner conducting. I never have the feeling the conductor is trying to impose his view on the work or the composer. The cumulative force of the reading is very impressive, and there are many thrilling moments.

Mrawinsky's 1959 Leningrad version uses the slightly fuller Haas version. This adds a few seconds to the Adagio, and something like 1:30 in the Finale. Mrawinsky's is a monumental conception, even though timings are on the fast side in II, III and IV. This is not my preferred interpretation of the symphony, but it has many impressive qualities. Mrawinsky's Bruckner may come across as glacial and forbidding. It's a formidable interpretation, carried with total commitment and concentration by all involved. The sound belies its age, but may be partly to blame for the rather stern result. It's closely miked, and although it's a live recording, there's little sense of a concert hall ambience. Soft dynamics are sacrificed for immediacy of sound. Not for everyday consumption, then, but mightily impressive when in the right mood.

Von Matacic's Tokyo performance with the NHK Symphony is a totally different affair (Nowak edition, recorded 1984). This conductor is an old hand at opera, and I think it shows here. Last time I heard it, some details had struck me as willful and mannered (the timpani parts especially). What I heard this week sounded much better than I had remembered it. It's a totally engaged interpretation, with the conductor giving it his all in what must have been for him a labour of love. The NHK Orchestra as recorded live in March 1984 sounds a little like Munich's BRSO. It's light in the bass, with refined strings and clear, easily differentiated winds and brass. No mitteleuropa burr to the sound. Everything sounds clear as a bell. Denon's engineering is superlative in its combination of effortless clarity and depth of soundstage. The harp part (scherzo and Adagio) has never sounded so pure and crystalline. Matacic's is a totally human reading, it alternately exults and explodes, it cajoles and lingers, it holds back and charges ahead thrillingly. Lest that sound like a recipe for Scriabine instead of Bruckner, I should add that the conductor is clearly the master of the score. It's just that he brings to it a mix of ebullience and sentiment that are normally not associated with Bruckner conducting. I commend listening to the Adagio of this interpretation as worth any masterclass in conducting. This easily sails to the top 4-5 among the 'dramatic' views of this symphony (other worthies include Böhm Cologne and Munich, Païta, Tennstedt).

Putting on the Asahina Osaka Philharmonic after the Matacic was a special experience.  There are similarities in sound production between the two japanese orchestras, but that's about it. Everything else is totally different. The orchestra has a great string section, and the conductor clearly lays out the proceedings with exacting differentiation of the various strands of string parts. Time and again my ears perked up as I was hearing things I had never noticed before - details, or balances that came across as quite different from the usual Bruckner sound. Winds, too, sounded very pure, detaching easily from the ambient texture. Remarkable considering that this, too, is a live recording (07.1994). But the conductor seems to have a very special POV about brass balances. These are very mellow, sounding sometimes like a giant organ. Not that they play loud, but they sometimes sound blended to a fault. It's hard to figure that 8 horns are coughing their lungs out in the coda. Maybe this is just the way these particular players sound. The effect is somewhat disconcerting. Interpretively Asahina has a strong POV to put across. I was mightily impressed by the formidable intricacy of the string layers in the first movement. At a moderate, but not sluggish pace (15:30), the conductor shapes the phrases impressively, building them to moments of jaw dropping beauty (the great stasis some 6 minutes in) or immense power (the main climax). Impressive also is his willingness to stretch things out to great effect. The whole coda is mesmerizing, as is his melodramatic, twisted way with the last dying gasp of the strings.

I was more critical of the scherzo, where the main tempo is too sedate for my taste. But this serves as a framework for some quite extraordinary distensions of tempo in the slower parts - not just the trio, but the connecting interludes of the scherzo parts as well. This is something I had never heard this way before. A 'standard' tempo for the fast sections would probably have made those slower parts sound awfully wilful. In this context, it works. Asahina is not against hamming it up either: the loud thwacks that bookend both sections of the scherzo would wake up the dead!

At 29  minutes, the adagio is definitely on the slow side, but it is intensely felt throughout, and concentration never flags. My favourite part is about 18 minutes in, when the tempo slows and the textures thin out into nothingness. This is followed by another section where the tempo picks up and the atmosphere suddenly becomes tense and anguished. I like to hear these two sections bridged by a few seconds of silence (think of the first movement of the 9th symphony, with its suspenseful pauses). Here it was beautifully done, but alas, no bridge. One section immediately follows the other. Still, a great movement.

I have reservations about the finale, which in the whole drags a bit - or maybe the orchestra was showing signs of fatigue at that point (some brass confusion in the coda) - or lack of clarity. Conductor's balances or the vagaries of the concert, it's hard to tell. All told it was impressive, but doubts crept in here and there. A formidable concluding arpeggiated chord, strongly italicized. For some unfathomable reason, Canyon has seen fit to preserve 13 minutes of applause on a concluding track. Timings are 15:30, 16:30, 29:00 and 23:40. Uneven results, but a fascinating interpretation. This was my first exposure to the art of Asahina. He seems to have played and recorded more Bruckner than anyone else (dead or alive).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on November 11, 2009, 12:56:17 PM
Now you're talking business my friend! Three of those are amongst my all time favorites, and I more or less completely agree with how you characterized them. Just to add few details.
I always find that Klemperer/Koln performance having such tremendous purpose. He has his vision clear as as mountain top, and he is getting there as in a cavalry charge, straight line and no prisoners. Particularly terrific moment is Scherzo proper driven ferociously by timpani (the only way it should go in my opinion).
Performance under Mravinsky, almost as usual, has feel of this overwhelming, and yes forbidding, power waiting to erupt, but being kept in check under iron control of the puppet-master. Recording is studio, I believe, not live.
I agree with all you said about Matacic, he had a feel for possibly most naturally perfect pacing of all Bruckner conductors I heard. NHK Orchestra gets bit tonally weak at moments. Recording quality is exceptional.
I have that '94 Osaka Asahina recording, but can recall very little about it.     
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 11, 2009, 06:16:43 PM
You're right, Milos. The Mrawinsky seems to be a studio production. The hand of steel in an iron glove feeling may sound off-putting at first, but after a few hearings I got used to the absolute control emanating from the podium. Within these aesthetic strictures, it's a formidable interpretation.

I just read a very thorough and illuminating french review of the Klemperer Cologne recording. Here's an extract, in which I highlight those words that have the same root and meaning in French or English. It just so happens that they perfectly illustrate the whole review (http://classiqueinfo-disque.com/spip/spip.php?article112):
QuoteSans surprise, le geste de Klemperer est austère et toujours terriblement impérieux. Le sentiment d'urgence et surtout d'effroi [frightfulness] est toujours présent, et naît d'abord de la constance de la tension aux cordes. C'est simple, il y de l'électricité dans l'air, d'un bout à l'autre. Les rares instants de poésies  ne frappent que davantage l'oreille.

I have come to discern a particular quality to this work that I can best describe as 'suspenseful'. There are moments of tension, moments where the music seems to be threading on a wire over an abyss that I now look for whenever I listen to this masterpiece. Specifically, I can point to five such instances. I could also compare them to the feeling of crossing a rope bridge over a gorge. The music becomes calmer in tempo, the textures rarefy to the point where the orchestra becomes almost inaudible.

I - at the end of the development section in the first movement, about 6 minutes in.

II - at the end of the first movement, where the music peters out into nothingness, with a falling three note motif that is repeated four times, ever softer, as if the music was liquefying.

III about 16-18 minutes in the Adagio, a long passage where I always have the impression of hearing The Todesverkündigung music from Walküre, where Brünnhilde announces his imminent death to Siegmund. The sense of yearning and ache is overwhelming when this passage is well handled. That's the place where I like to hear a pause before lauching into the anguished,
agitated section that follows.

IV - as in I, the quiet, resigned, desolate coda to the Adagio.

V - In the finale, the suspenseful winding down before the coda. This always reminds me of falling leaves - litterally: the passage is made of a succession of falling figurations in the strings before it peters out and 'lands' on a cushion of low strings that intone a short, resigned  threnody. Then follows the extraordinary moment with the death knell sounded from afar on the timpani. Note how the coda starts on the violins mysteriously taking up the preceding passage's downward figurations, this time in reverse motion: the ascent to light has begun.

Last note: I wish some-one with a score could confirm if I hear the same three note downward interval in the last moments of I (the 'liquefied' bit) and IV, where it is hurled out by the full might of the orchestra crashing down ffff to conclude the work.


Last heard: a Furtwängler version from  17.10.1944. The Vienna Philharmonic plays, presumably in the Musikverein or the Konzerthaus. This is from a DG box. Unfortunately, the sound here is so unpleasant as to ruin the considerable musical experience. Pitch is unsteady, there is flutter, and a generally glassy feeling that is aurally painful to endure. What is not to be denied is the powerful emotional experience it must have been to be at that concert. There is a sense of enervation, of impending catastrophe that are palpable. Alternately febrile and monumental, Furtwängler's conducting imparts a distraught feeling that verges on the unstable at times. The scherzo in particular has a jarring alternance of manic activity (the 'iroun foundry' cackling trumpets of the scherzo proper) and distended, 'Rêveries, passions' episodes that reluctantly give way to yet another round of motoristic sherzoing. This is almost schizophrenic Bruckner conducting. I wonder if the Viennese had the kind of feeling concertgoers must have had in 1945 when Gieseking was playing the Emperor concerto under the accompaniment of distant bombing and anti-aircraft thudding. If only it was in better sound.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on November 12, 2009, 04:58:03 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 11, 2009, 06:16:43 PM
I just read a very thorough and illuminating french review of the Klemperer Cologne recording. Here's an extract, in which I highlight those words that have the same root and meaning in French or English. It just so happens that they perfectly illustrate the whole review (http://classiqueinfo-disque.com/spip/spip.php?article112):

From what I could tell, with [little] help from babel-fish translator, that's pretty much a rave. And I think I agree with most: austère, sentiment d’urgence, constance de la tension.

If I guessed right one of reviewers top favorites is Van Beinum. Never heard it. Disliked Van Beinum's 5th, I like urgent 5ths but he flogged it into permanent breathlessness, with very little repose. But then again 8th is different kind of animal, probably should try it.

Andre, have you heard Van Beinum's 8th?   
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 12, 2009, 08:14:00 AM
Yes, I have two of them. I think I wrote about it some time ago. There's the official June 1955 Philips recording, and another one from April of the same year, both with the Concertgebouw. I prefer the earlier one, but the sound (from Berky's site is mediocre).

Here's how Berky presents it:
QuoteThis performance by Eduard van Beinum and the Concertgebouw Orchestra was given in the Concertgebouw on April 21, 1955. The concert was recorded on Pyral (acetate discs) for later broadcast. At some point, the discs were discarded by the Dutch Radio but apparently they never made it to the trash bin. Someone took them home and they were eventually discovered in a flea market by an astute collector. While this transfer is offered for download, a nicely processed commercial release is available through Tahra Records.

Timings are practically identical, but I hear more flexibility in the April concert. If I can find a second hand copy of the Tahra issue I'll
certainly try it. It's a fine performance, very intense.  Beinum's kind of podium control could rival Toscanini's or Mrawinsky's, so it may not be to everyone's taste.  It's still available for download on the Bruckner site.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on November 12, 2009, 10:20:53 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 12, 2009, 08:14:00 AM
Yes, I have two of them. I think I wrote about it some time ago.

Couldn't find anything. The new search engine gave me this very exchange as only mention of Van Beinum in Bruckner's Abbey. Hard to believe that, I'm probably doing something wrong there.

QuoteThere's the official June 1955 Philips recording, and another one from April of the same year, both with the Concertgebouw. I prefer the earlier one, but the sound (from Berky's site is mediocre).....It's still available for download on the Bruckner site.

Thanks fir the tip, I've downloaded it, will give it a spin later.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 12, 2009, 03:29:22 PM
A very interesting interpretation from the very uneven Knappertsbusch. I used to have the Westminster lp set of the Munich performance and never warmed to it - bloated, turgid, in bad need of a viagra shot and cavernously recorded.

The 08.01.1951 from Berlin (6cd set on Andromeda) is a totally different affair. The orchestra, for one, is much better, and to my ears, better recorded. The sound is actually very decent for its early vintage. I also noticed that there is a definite kinship between the sound made by the orchestra and that heard from the Bayreuth pit. Strings play with a density of sound not associated with them unde Furtwängler. Also, the brass has a kind of 'Bayreuth' feel to them: brilliant and round, with a slightly 'covered' sound

The interpretation is pretty much of a piece. Not as emotional as Furtwängler, not as volcanic as Abendroth, but a good compromise. Speaking of compromise, Knappertsbusch uses a different edition. Either through that or personal textual adjustments, there are strange editorial choices here. Some of the louder outburst begin piano, then rapidly swell to the volume level we're accustomed to. Also very strange, but quite effective is the 'deathwatch' trumpet calls tacked on  the first movement's grinding climax: instead of playing a sustained, stentorian fff, they are down to mf, no more. Startling but very effective all the same because at that point the whole orchestra is silent except for the trumpets.

I found it a patient, noble, emotionally engaged interpretation. Timings are middle of the road (approx. 15, 14, 27 and 22.5 minutes). At this point we're nearing the 80 minutes mark, and a certain gigantism - probably inherent to the work - starts to creep in. Interpretations that keep the work under 75 minutes (say, 14-14-24-21) achieve a very different result.

Worth hearing for its special qualities of dedication, concentrated playing and emotional engagement.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on November 14, 2009, 05:41:33 AM
Next Saturday (21st November) BBC Radio 3 are discussing the different versions of Bruckner's 5th Symphony in their 'Buiding a Library' feature at 9.30am (GMT).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 14, 2009, 05:57:52 AM
Hi, Jeffrey! ;)

Let us know what the outcome of the discussion is. I imagine these would be fairly 'central' recommendations.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on November 14, 2009, 06:19:49 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 14, 2009, 05:57:52 AM
Hi, Jeffrey! ;)

Let us know what the outcome of the discussion is. I imagine these would be fairly 'central' recommendations.

Hi Andre  ;)

The Wand version on RCA is my favourite (how about you?) I don't know whether I'll be able to listen in, but if I do I'll be sure to let you know.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 14, 2009, 06:45:28 AM
Herbert Kegel was an East Germany conductor much active in Dresden and in particular in Leipzig for over 30 years (both with the Radio symphony orchestra and at the Gewandhaus). Like Celibidache, he seems to have been a 3-9 conductor. His Bruckner discography (http://www.abruckner.com/recordings/Kegel/Herbert) shows a strong and continued interest in Bruckner, which he conducted troughout his long carreer. I have his 3rd (1986), 6th, and 8th (the Pilz issue).

These records show the east german orchestras as masters of the Bruckner idiom, but in a quite different way from their western counterparts. The overall sound of the leipzigers (both orchestras) is substantially darker, with a truly formidable brass complement. Strings have a dense, almost gritty sound of considerable power. I suppose these players can produce silky, refined tone at will, but in Bruckner they go for a deep soundstage, and they never stint on the decibels. Of course this might just happen to be Kegel's conducting, but I think what one hears on these discs is fairly representative of their considerable brucknerian art.

The 8th symphony under Kegel is patient, formidable, stern, with a very strong sense of continuity. There's no volatility of tempo or mood (Jochum), no sense of joy and fantasy (Matacic), no irresistible outbursts of exalted triumph (Païta, Tennstedt) and very little tenderness (Jochum again).  Lest that sound like a recipe for a depressive listening experience, I hasten to add that it's a very moving, absorbing reading, powerfully put across. It's not as neurotic and intuitively tragic as Furtwängler, but it inhabits pretty much the same saturnine, pessimistic psychological world.

A section of the Finale that often comes across as a jarring intrusion is the big outburst 5-6 minutes in. With its overbearing, pounding timpani and raging brass, it often makes me feel this is a passage that Bruckner should have had second thoughts about. Not so here. Kegel's conducting here stresses nobility and grandeur without ever inducing any sense of cheap drama. The same goes for pretty much the rest of the symphony, but I was glad to hear this passage placed in its proper musical context within the overall structure (Knappertsbusch too is very convincing here).

Kegel's 3rd and 6th are also from the same general ethos, but it seems to find its fullest expression in the 8th. The sound (radio broadcast) is okay, somewhat better in the soft passages (nice depth of soundstage). Not a first recommendation, but a top contender for the dedicated collector who already has half a dozen versions and wants to delve deper into Bruckner's titanic score.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 14, 2009, 06:53:51 AM
Nézet-Séguin's 8th is out in the stores. I won't listen to it before a while (it's a Christmas present), but here's a sneak preview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXJkLUsUjm0). The church you see in the video is the recorded venue of that team's Bruckner recordings (7-9).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on November 23, 2009, 01:22:54 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 14, 2009, 05:41:33 AM
Next Saturday (21st November) BBC Radio 3 are discussing the different versions of Bruckner's 5th Symphony in their 'Buiding a Library' feature at 9.30am (GMT).
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 14, 2009, 05:57:52 AM
Let us know what the outcome of the discussion is. I imagine these would be fairly 'central' recommendations.

His final choice was Barenboim/Berlin, he was also very keen on Furtwangler's '42 recording.
You can listen to programme online till Saturday.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00nydth
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on November 24, 2009, 04:10:58 AM
Quote from: Drasko on November 23, 2009, 01:22:54 PM
His final choice was Barenboim/Berlin, he was also very keen on Furtwangler's '42 recording.
You can listen to programme online till Saturday.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00nydth

The Barenboim is actually well worth the plaudit - I woudn't choose it over that Furtwängler, or Karajan, but its possibly his best Bruckner.

And I wonder if the Horenstein on BBC Legends was mentioned; that would also contend for my top pick.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 24, 2009, 03:18:36 PM
Maazel, Szell and Dohnanyi are the latest I heard. Kubelik, Furtwängler 1954 and Böhm should be nxt. After that, I'll embark on the 80 minutes+ readings

The Cleveland Orchestra is the common thread that binds the three versions I listened to. Maazel's is with the Berlin Philharmonic, but he succeeded Szell and preceded Dohnanyi in Cleveland.

Much of what Maazel does is absolutely remarkable, especially in I, which strikes me as an unqualified success. Aided immensely by the incredible playing of the berliners, and the very good recorded sound, he shapes the movement in one continuous arc, with no tempo changes. The slow episode I sometimes refer to in this movement (about 5-6 minutes in) displays fantastic control and incredible concentration and refinement of tone by the Berlin strings. Magnificent climax and coda, marred only by the last minute sinking into inaudibility - which hides the thematic connection with the coda of IV. I'm no score reader, but I know that the markings for the end of the movement call for pp throughout the last page or so - no diminuendo, and certainly nothing like the pppp I hear in this reading. Doubts crept in with the scherzo. All I heard was a scherzo. Some conductors achieve incredible tension, imparting a malevolence and almost psychotic rage that I find more in character than the purely symphonic edifice heard here - however sonorously played. It's as if Maazel was just beating the stick. The Deutsche Michel in this movement is one placid fellow. Great playing, though, which keeps the interest alive. The recording allows for much space around the sound, something that is often sorely missing. It's often made to sound like there are more decibels in the effusive Trio section than anywhere else in the symphony. The saturation one often hears is quite unpleasant. Not so here.

I thought the Adagio paced to perfection. Incredible control of tempo - very difficult in this multiple paragraphs, polysectional movement. But there isn't much emotion. It's rather marmoreal and apollonian in mood - no tragic undercurrents. The beautiful slow section I love so much is indeed very beautiful here (about 14-16 minutes in). It's amazingly zen-like, as if we are lost in beauty that is truly wondrous (again the control is amazing). But I also noticed that the strings were not bringing the same concentration and refinement of dynamics they had brought to the similar passage in I. More generic. I like when there's a slight pause, an hesitation before launching the next paragraph. Here I think a tape edit mars the effect I love so much. It's tacked right on to what precedes, something I don't think Maazel may have intended. I base that remark on the multiple occasions where he sligthly holds the long notes for emphasis - sometimes a full blown ritard, but often just holding back. This is particularly obvious in the loud outbursts of I and IV. He clearly milks everything for maximum impact, but always within the boundaries of taste. I can't think he would have missed that spot where a meaningful, minute adjustment of the pause is so obviously called for. Make that a full second, instead of a direct segue. Big difference!

The finale is mightily imposing, but it's almost merely that. Maazel's sure hand makes the whole cohere so that this difficult movement holds remarkably well as a whole (it often falls apart in seemingly unconnected sections). There are some moments of pure magic from the orchestra. The climax of I is awesome. Perfectly integrated trumpets that sound their calls in noble, regal fashion, easily towering over the huge orchestra below, yet never making one feel they're engaged in mortal combat with the rest of the orchestra. Awesome in the way objective technical perfection blends into  subjective artistic impressions. The loud bit 6 minutes into IV is a place that often makes me cringe in some hands. It's the pounding of the timpani that upsets me.  I know that sounds iconoclastic, but I wish someone or other had advised Bruckner to have a second look here. Under Maazel it's not underplayed, but everything is so well balanced that, like that first movement climax, there's an integration of all the strands that makes more musical sense than usual. Plus, the recording is so good there that every orchestral choir is clearly defined - no mush, no mess. Thanks to the ultra-lucid recording, I could actually imagine the passage sans timpani. The imaginary effect was truly wondrous. Noble, triumphant, airborne. It's the timps that mar the effect. Try to hear it that way, factoring out the percussion - just strings and brass.

In the end, I could recommend this as a first choice on many grounds. But there is more to the inner movements than Maazel finds in them. Even the finale sounds slightly perfunctory. But with incredible playing and powerful, transparent sound (on one mid-price disc), it's hard to beat.

The Szell is a very special recording. I recall hearing it as a teenager and not liking it much. Too cool, too slow, too level-headed. What I now hear is much, much better. As a matter of fact, although not everything is perfect, I think this recording epitomizes *one* of the approaches that works totally in this symphony. The architecture of the whole seems to make perfect sense. The verticality of Bruckner's sound world is superbly achieved (not so well conveyed by the recording, but that's another matter). By verticality, I mean the building up of the sonic edifice from the low end of the sonic spectrum (basses, low wwinds, trombones, Wagner tubas and timpani) to its high end (violins, flutes, trumpets). In between is the 'flesh' of the orchestra: violas, cellos, oboes, clarinets, horns). I'll quote here what my good friend Nigel has explained to me recently on the subject:
Quotethe arrangement of musical structures - what I describe as "layers", with a foundation, substructure, superstructure, all with different time periods, that get longer the deeper down you dig.
.

This organization of the sonic structure is amazingly obvious here. Note for instance the cadaverous basses digging deep under the orchestra in the exposition of the themes in the Adagio. Note also the passage I wish Bruckner would have revised in IV: Szell begins it with mf timpani, only increasing in volume later on. It's the striding strings and lofty trumpets that mark the character here. Szell was a martinet, but he was not exactly a purist. He sometimes touched up scores when he felt there were trouble spots. I have no idea what's actually written in the score. Be that as it may, much better this than the vulgar, mindless pounding heard most of the time. As a matter of fact, the timpani are more discreet than usual throughout the symphony.

This version also has the rather idiosyncratic conception of a brisk first movement, followed by a slower sherzo. Most of the time, timings in these two movements are almost identical. When they are not, it's the scherzo that's swifter. In any case, it all works perfectly here. Szell's tempo in II may be moderate (as per the score), but the articulation is biting (compare that to Karajan's treacly way with an identical timing). The finale is excelllently laid out. One area in which Szell is comparable to Maazel is the iron grip on tempos - they are as stable as could be imagined - the very antithesis of Jochum or Furtwängler for example. Where Szell is more 'wilful' than Maazel is in his treatment of loud phrase ends. He's not immune to italicizing, most obviously in the last movement, where there are a couple of decidedly emphatic ritards.

The best being the enemy of the good, the least satisfactory aspect of this tremendous performance is the coda, which sounds simply too controlled. It erupts mightily, but it never exults.

A word about the orchestra: I normally prefer my Bruckner to emanate from germanic countries. The sonic foundation is something
these musicians have in their blood. No matter how the upper reaches of the orchestra sounds, their instrumental "foundation, substructure" can be counted on to deliver the goods (except in Berlin since Abbado emasculated their collective sound). Hearing a Munich Celi performance is all about the orchestra's 'basement' leading the parade. In the case of Szell's clevelanders, it's all there, but the layers sound distinct. There is no overlap, no muffling. It's all perfectly audible throughout the spectrum. While I'd count this as a perfect sound in Beethoven and Mendelssohn, it may impart a feeling of glassiness in rhe romantic or late-romantic repertoire. I'm not talking about the genres, more about the increasingly thick orchestration. I think the composers expected a certain blurring of those sonic boundaries, and wrote the lines (the horizontal ones, the music's rythmic foundation) accordingly. Szell presents everything with immense power, but total clarity. The horns can play extremely softly while retaining an amazing presence in the sonic fabric. This is very, very hard to achieve. Bruckner ruthlessly exposes his horny band in many passages. It's normal to expect a clam (in concert) or a slightly fuller horn sound in many of the work's quieter passages. What they achieve here is an almost supernatural control of dynamics.

And a last word, this time about the recording: I don't know where this was taped (it's obviously not live), but it does seem not emanate from Severance Hall or the Masonic Auditorium. There is a much greater depth to the sound than what one is accustomed in other Szell-Sony productions. It's also airier, blander, more echoey. It could be that it was recorded by different engineers, but I doubt it. You can't add or substract reverberation to a recording. Well, not in those days, I think. Anyone has an answer on that?

On to the Cleveland Dohnanyi. I'll be more succinct on that one. The sound is much more alluring, warm and impactful. Dohnanyi reverses the timings in I and II (16-14 instead of Szell's 14-16), but the other movements clock in at almost the same. The ochestra is definitely a great one, but the more glamorous sound robs off the edges. It's more 'beautiful', while still retaining a bronzen 'buzz' to the brass. Timpani are nicely assertive too. But that's about the only hint of 'rusticity' I hear in this 'Cleveland nouveau' sound. When it comes to the architecture of the recording, I think Dohnanyi makes all the right moves. This is a very solid, 'grounded' reading. It's also rather uneventful. Where Szell makes the occasional jaw dropping ritard, Dohnanyi makes a more modest move, almost as if 'in passing' ('please don't mind me'). It's very solid, very well done, but ultimately a tad low key. Even the orchestra is not as personable as it was under Szell (just listen to the horns and double basses).  I don't think a low key Bruckner 8th has much future.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 25, 2009, 05:49:44 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 24, 2009, 03:18:36 PM

And a last word, this time about the recording: I don't know where this was taped (it's obviously not live), but it does seem not emanate from Severance Hall or the Masonic Auditorium. There is a much greater depth to the sound than what one is accustomed in other Szell-Sony productions. It's also airier, blander, more echoey. It could be that it was recorded by different engineers, but I doubt it. You can't add or substract reverberation to a recording. Well, not in those days, I think. Anyone has an answer on that?

I have the original LP release. Unfortunately it doesn't say where it was recorded. The engineers were Edward Graham and Raymond Moore, Andrew Kazdin producing. Rosenberg's book on the orchestra, The Cleveland Orchestra Story: Second to None,  doesn't mention the recording venue either. He does say, after first referring to Szell's bone cancer,  "Whatever Szell may have been feeling this fall, he made one of his greatest Cleveland recordings in October, an elevating performance of Bruckner's Symphony No.8. The recording stands as a summation of Szell's art. It vibrantly reflects the score's grandeur, lyricism, and earthiness and the orchestral playing claims a luminous quality rarely heard in Bruckner."

Thank you for these "Cleveland" reviews. I've been waiting with much anticipation for your opinion. Maazel and Szell are my favorite Bruckner Eighths. It's gratifying that you gave them positive reviews. About Szell's slow tempo in the Scherzo one reviewer I read in 1970 likened it to "the engine of heaven." Good description of a stunningly powerful performance.

Agree about Dohnányi's Eighth: an also ran. His best Bruckner in Cleveland is, I believe, the Fifth: swift and dramatic it totally convinces me that this is how that symphony should go.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MN Dave on November 25, 2009, 07:26:24 AM
Hello Brucknerians,

I have Karajan's cycle from the 38-disc symphony box. What do you think of that one?

Also, how is Wand's boxed cycle?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on November 25, 2009, 07:44:56 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on November 25, 2009, 07:26:24 AM
Hello Brucknerians,

I have Karajan's cycle from the 38-disc symphony box. What do you think of that one?

Also, how is Wand's boxed cycle?

Thanks.

Hello Minnesotan,

Karajan's cycle is Very Good (TM). I would hazard an estimation along the lines of 'best integral cycle', though Jochum's (DG) might also qualify for that accolade. In general, the late 70s recordings (e.g. 7th, 8th) come off as more 'mean and lean' than the symphonies recorded in the early 80s (e.g. 3rd); and the overall keynote of the set is momentum.

The Wand is... I have it, and either Karajan or Jochum draw my attention from it every time. Some of the performances in there are quite excellent, mind; just not possessed of what, IMO, constitutes Wand's best Bruckner.

(Mainly the sort of hushed awe resonating around the Berlin Philharmonic 4th and 8th, or the 'pristine' quality of the Berlin 9th.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 25, 2009, 08:13:26 AM
Quote from: Renfield on November 25, 2009, 07:44:56 AM
The Wand is... I have it, and either Karajan or Jochum draw my attention from it every time. Some of the performances in there are quite excellent, mind; just not possessed of what, IMO, constitutes Wand's best Bruckner.

I agree. Wand seemed to get better as he aged. Perhaps I'm being too harsh but some of the performances from Köln seem anonymous to me, lacking any personality (that might be a selling point for some). There are exceptions, a marvelous Second, for example, still a favorite of mine. If I had to choose between the three cycles mentioned by you and Renfield...I'd take Barenboim  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MN Dave on November 25, 2009, 08:15:44 AM
I think Barenboim may have initially scared me away from Bruckner. Maybe I just wasn't ready. I no longer have the recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 25, 2009, 08:21:22 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on November 25, 2009, 08:15:44 AM
I think Barenboim may have initially scared me away from Bruckner. Maybe I just wasn't ready. I no longer have the recording.

As a first choice I wouldn't actually recommend him. His interpretations are controversial and the Seventh and Eighth not all that special...which makes the box less compelling. I basically cut my teeth on Karajan and Jochum's Bruckner. They're both good starter sets, I think, although I prefer Jochum's DG recordings and Karajan's EMI and early DG recordings.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on November 25, 2009, 08:25:46 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 25, 2009, 08:13:26 AM
If I had to choose between the three cycles mentioned by you and Renfield...I'd take Barenboim  ;D

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 25, 2009, 08:21:22 AM
His interpretations are controversial and the Seventh and Eighth not all that special...which makes the box less compelling.
Sarge

You made my comment before I did, on why I didn't mention Barenboim. ;)

Neither Karajan nor Jochum have any unremarkable performances of the late symphonies (though they do of the 6th; especially Karajan's must be one of the most unremarkable recordings he's ever made). Edit: Though I grant that Barenboim does have a very remarkable 5th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 25, 2009, 08:50:35 AM
Quote from: Renfield on November 25, 2009, 08:25:46 AM
Edit: Though I grant that Barenboim does have a very remarkable 5th.

Agreed. Glad to see the BBC thinks so too. (Jens has a radically different opinion.) I like Barenboim's First, Second, Sixth and Ninth too, and the Third and Fourth are decent although not among my favorites. In other words, like most cycles it has hits and misses.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on November 25, 2009, 10:36:14 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 25, 2009, 08:50:35 AM
Agreed. Glad to see the BBC thinks so too. (Jens has a radically different opinion.) I like Barenboim's First, Second, Sixth and Ninth too, and the Third and Fourth are decent although not among my favorites. In other words, like most cycles it has hits and misses.

Sarge

I'm trying to remember Barenboim's 4th, but it must've been that unmemorable. ;D

However, I agree that his 1st and 2nd are very good indeed; in fact, I might even add the 3rd to the 'approved' list. And the 6th is possibly the best in a complete cycle, even if it's still a universe and a half (!) away from Klemperer.

The 9th I am less enthusiastic about, on account of finding it a little lost in its dreams of Furtwänglerian mists, to paraphrase a Gramophone review of his 'Eroica', but without the Furtwänglerian nightmare...

(How's that for purple prose? :P)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rw1883 on November 26, 2009, 11:03:23 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 11, 2009, 06:16:43 PM
Last note: I wish some-one with a score could confirm if I hear the same three note downward interval in the last moments of I (the 'liquefied' bit) and IV, where it is hurled out by the full might of the orchestra crashing down ffff to conclude the work.

Just catching up on some posts...the three notes at the end of the first movement (played by the violas) are D-Db-C (half-step, half-step).  At the end of the finale it's E-D-C (whole-step, whole-step). 

Hope everyone has a great weekend!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 26, 2009, 05:53:32 PM
Thanks, rw1083!

I suppose it means that, although the notes and intervals are not the same, there's a thematic connection between the two motifs? Isn't the end of I in the minor mode, and IV in the major?

Sarge, thanks so much for your kind words.  I'm not all too well equipped to deal with purely musical issues, but I love this work so much I can't help revisiting it constantly and feeling the need to share my impressions. Mind you, just about every Bruckner symphony qualifiies for my unalduterated love  :). 

I guess it's a rendez-vous for a Midwinter 9th symphony's set of posts when I'm finished with the 8th (10 more to go!!). I strictly follow chronology, and recordings keep coming in, so it has all the features of an unending story (remember the movie?). IMHO few composers are as worthy of the attention as Bruckner  ;D.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on November 28, 2009, 06:22:17 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on November 25, 2009, 07:26:24 AM
Hello Brucknerians,
I have Karajan's cycle from the 38-disc symphony box. What do you think of that one?
Also, how is Wand's boxed cycle? Thanks.

I think Karajan would be top choice overall for Bruckner complete set, but no need to buy all those other HVK symphonies which most people already have, an ideal HVK Bruckner core starter set would also include the later VPO 7 & 8, can buy all these Amazon used for $50-60 total:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41it-EBMlCL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41X18SP9ZEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4113NZJ9X0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on November 28, 2009, 06:31:29 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on November 28, 2009, 06:22:17 AM
I think Karajan would be top choice overall for Bruckner complete set, but no need to buy all those other HVK symphonies which most people already have, an ideal HVK Bruckner core starter set would also include the later VPO 7 & 8, can buy all these Amazon used for $50-60 total:

Next would come Jochum DG & EMI complete sets
Next would come Barenboim & Chailly complete sets mainly because of great modern sound
Next would come all other complete sets: Wand, Solti, Skrowaczewski, Tintner etc

A special mention for Celibidache/EMI partial set, for seasoned Bruckner fans can rank very highly but unique performance style not for all tastes
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on November 28, 2009, 01:52:32 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on November 25, 2009, 07:26:24 AM
Also, how is Wand's boxed cycle?

I also think Karajan's Bruckner is very good. But Wand strikes me as not having been sufficiently praised in response to your question. True, his Cologne cycle is rather one of understatement, even elegance, rather than puffy-cheeked bombast in sumptuous, glorious sound. Wand's downfall may be his own, later recordings. Just as Dark Angel is correct in suggesting the Vienna-patch for the Berlin cycle, so Wand really ought to get a Berlin patch for his Cologne RSO cycle, his only complete one. Wand's Berlin 4th (narrowly), 8th (by the widest of margins), and 9th (narrowly) are my favorites; his Berlin 5th my favorite alternate take. Apart from the incomplete Berlin (4, 5, 7, 8, 9), there is also incomplete Hamburg (3-9), and now incomplete Munich (4, 5, 6, 8, 9)

Those that are issued in the US (4th, 8th, 9th, for example) are incredibly cheap now. The imports (5th, 7th) not so much. They are also available in crazy-expensive Japanese SACD re-issues.

The "last recording" --with the NDR SO-- comes with a surprisingly broad (for Wand) 4th and the best Schubert 5th I've ever heard.

Links 'behind' the pictures:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/418JNJCB8YL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000063BYT?ie=UTF8&tag=weta909-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000063BYT)   (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZHDMJ4JCL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000247D1?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0000247D1)   (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517rHScS3uL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://rcm.amazon.com/e/cm?lt1=_blank&bc1=000000&IS2=1&bg1=FFFFFF&fc1=000000&lc1=0000FF&t=weta909-20&o=1&p=8&l=as1&m=amazon&f=ifr&md=10FE9736YVPPT7A0FBG2&asins=B000003G38) 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZDW5MABAL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005Q66Y?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00005Q66Y)   (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21UQ7MaaNyL._SL500_AA181_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002VYE0E?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0002VYE0E)   (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41A0SD6HD2L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000026PLM?ie=UTF8&tag=jlaurson-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B000026PLM)






Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on November 28, 2009, 03:38:55 PM
Jens
Speaking of Wand, how do you like his NDR 1987 Lubek Cathedral 8th, available from Arkiv Music?
Personally I like it more than his BPO version of 2001, although not a huge difference in style

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/142335.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on November 29, 2009, 12:11:18 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on November 28, 2009, 03:38:55 PM
Jens
Speaking of Wand, how do you like his NDR 1987 Lubek Cathedral 8th, available from Arkiv Music?
Personally I like it more than his BPO version of 2001, although not a huge difference in style

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/142335.jpg)

I revere it, alright... and I know many find it even better than the Berlin 8th (it was--and is--certainly harder to get, which probably contributed in some measure to that) while others yet find it a soupy mess. It is my second favorite 8th, probably, after the Berlin Wand performance. (Followed by Karajan, Boulez, and whatnot... but we've been through that. :-) )
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on November 29, 2009, 03:01:06 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 29, 2009, 12:11:18 PM
while others yet find it a soupy mess.

What was it that Drasko called it? A "sonic swamp"? ;D

(I'm in the 'others', in case there was doubt.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 06, 2009, 04:48:47 PM
Three more 8ths listened to this week, all with a very valid POV. Just as important, the artistic result is worthy of the efforts involved.

Volkmar Andreae is the first conductor to record an entire cycle (minus the 'zero' symphony). The whole  lot was recorded within two months in Vienna, with the VSO. It dates all the way back to 1953. Andreae was a seasoned hand at Bruckner, and his approach reflects that period's swift way with Bruckner's alleged longueurs. Symphonies 2, 3, 6 and 9 all clock in between 50 and 51 minutes. The 8th  goes at a reasonable 72 minutes (14-14-24-20). Had the finale been padded with the Haas accretions, it would have been about 74 minutes long. This is the 1892 Version by Bruckner and Joseph Schalk, edited by Haslinger-Schlesinger-Lienau. I don't have details of  this particular version's textual variants, but there's a few that raise an eyebrow. Most obvious are the soft dynamics of the trumpet motive that crown the big climax in I (it goes diminuendo and ends piano). Then there's an extra cymbal clash in one of the finale's outbursts. Certainly spurious, but quite effective, and certainly not offensive.

Andreae builds the first movement patiently. No heavens stormed, no apocalyptic vistas. What we hear instead is a 'symphonic' reading, where line and continuity of argument are to the fore. Same with the scherzo. The VSO play quite well, and really sound at home in this music. The Adagio is intense and builds to a shattering climax, one of the most dramatic I've heard. Lovely forlorn ending to the movement. The finale is militant and boasts powerful playing, although the horns lack projection. The timpani come alive in this movement, having been reined in by the conductor in the previous movements. Excellent coda, with formidable cumulative power, no doubt aided by the moderate, unswerving tempo. Unfortunately the horns do not come through as they should.

The sound is reasonably precise and with nice depth of soundstage, but dynamics are limited and there's a lot of hiss. I've heard better sound from that period. The orchestra plays very idiomatically, but it's rather small-sounding (not enough strings?), not on the level of Leipzig, Dresden, Berlin or Vienna (WP) from the period.

Coincidentally, the William Steinberg Boston Symphony 1972 concert recording also uses that slightly corrupt edition. That is, if one believes John Berky's Bruckner discography listing. But there's no diminuendo on the trumpet fanfares in I, and no cymbal clash in IV. In any case, it's a very good interpretation (download available from the BSO website). Excellent sound and playing. Obviously Steinberg is an old hand at Bruckner (he recorded the 6th in Boston and a couple of symphonies back in his Pittsburgh days). And of course, he was german-born and trained (fled Germany in the 30s because of his jewish roots). What is missing is fluency in the idiom from the orchestra. All the gestures from the podium ooze brucknerian mastery, while the orchestra just as obviously struggle to develop a corporate sound appropriate to the idiom. They had seldom played any Bruckner before that date (maybe 6-7 times between 1947 and 1972), including savagely cut performances of 5, 7 and 8. It's technically excellent, but not a true Bruckner sound. Pacing is superbly confident, though, and Steinberg adds a few dramatic pauses or agogic distortions to good effect. Altogether a very valuable version, but it would have been infinitely better had Steinberg stayed in boston for, say, another 10 years (he died shortly after). There are 10 Bruckner concerts taped between 1947 and 1974 from Symphony Hall and Steinberg conducted half of them.

I didn't think the third recording would work very well, on account of a whoppingly fast first movement. At 12:34 it's the fastest of some 200 versions (there's a 1955 Knappertsbusch that is also around 12:30). Faster even than Krips' NYP concert recording! However, it's totally different from the latter's volcanic, savagely brutal vision. Heinz Rögner simply lets the music move in a constant flow, never letting the pulse slacken. It doesn't sound particularly fast, actually. It's expertly shaped, and a very convincing  take on the music in its own right. The scherzo is barely above the 13 minutes mark (not unusual for that movement), and here, it DOES sound devilishly urgent. This is pressure cooking Bruckner, absolutely breathtaking, with  magnificently punched out last chords on the two bookend scherzo sections. The Adagio is surprisingly broad (26:21) and here again the shaping of the movement is from a master at work. Very expressive and moving slow central section, a powerful climax and a lyrical, restrained ending. Excellent troughout. The Finale is just right at 22:45 (it's the longer Haas version), and it builds very satisfyingly from the searing opening (wonderfully urgent 'cossacks' ride from the strings). A broad,  moderately paced coda with no tempo changes as steam builds up from the orchestra's foundation to ignite the whole orchestra, geyser-like.

I count a few of Rögner's Bruckner readings among the very best in the catalogue, and I think this is another such superb example of his art. He recorded 4-9 for Berlin Classics. The Berlin Radio SO is magnificent. And it's gorgeously recorded to boot.  Not for the first time I marvel at what the Berlin Classics engineers achieved with this fine orchestra (Suitner and Chailly also recorded Bruckner with them). Soundstage is very deep, orchestral placement precise, dynamic range seemingly unlimited. At all times the sound is glowingly warm and uncluttered. Technically it doesn't come any better than this. 1985 vintage, so possibly an analog recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 10, 2010, 11:10:45 AM

Barenboim, Chicago Symphony Orchestra
: I hadn't set my expectations very high on that one. I know and love his Chicago versions of 4 and 9, but was rather more skeptical of 5 and 6. Well, in this instance, apart from one grievous mistake from Barenboim, this is spectacularly good. Just about everything in it deserves praise, but two elements should be singled out: Barenboim's mastery of phrasing, using totally natural tempos and the right kind of balances within musical paragraphs. Making Bruckner's music breathe naturally is the secret of great interpretations. Of course it works especially when 'normal' tempos are used (timings of, say, 74-82 minutes). But that's hard to define. Slow or fast can work very well just about everywhere in the 8th. Extremes rarely do Bruckner justice. Second, the Chicago orchestra is simply awesome: in volume, in depth of tone, in purity of intonation, in balance between sections, in brilliance, it has - and displays - everything. The formidable brass section that can be such a liablility under Solti is here balanced (by the conductor? the engineers?)  by the splendid mass of strings: dense, warm yet endowed with a superb sheen. Beautiful wwinds, too - particular praise to the truly glorious first oboe .

Barenboim's one mistake comes at the very end. Midway through the coda it's as if the gas pedal suddenly got stuck to the bottom. The frenzy that ensues is jawdropping - in the wrong sense. The producer should have taken the conductor for a coffee to check the score over. This is a very unfortunate decision, as it prevents an otherwise splendid production from making it into the top list. This is taken from the complete set. Movement 1 is preceded by symphony zero. Fair enough. But at just under 80 minutes, the 8th could easily have been accommodated on a single disc.

I haven't heard the Berlin Phil account, but if it ends with the same circus act, I'll pass it. In any case, I doubt the Berlin orchestra would surpass the chicagoans' awesome performance here.

Wand Cologne RSO (Kölner RSO). Another big surprise. I've heard a few Wand performances from Hamburg and Berlin, and apart from the Hamburg 5th and 8th, I haven't warmed to Wand's Bruckner - least of all in Berlin. I find his conducting so strict as to mummify the scores. Mighty impressive, but he makes me think he's mastered the score - beaten it into submission. It comes to life as a lecture, not as a musical performance. I don't detect much affection in his music making. Awesome, but note very rewarding.

This is not the case with this Cologne 8th, although rythmic stiffness and Szell-like control do show up here and there (not a single instance of phrase bending, of holding up on climactic notes). Tempi are simply perfect - nothing to argue here. The orchestra is magnificent. I don't think I've heard such amazing brass sound before: there's a buzz, a burr to the low brass that is truly arresting. Trumpets are perfectly balanced and never threaten to drown out the rest. When the brass enters shortly after the beginning of IV, I felt almost raped by the sudden onslaught - could the engineers have given them a hand here? Same feeling at 6 minutes into that movement. Jaw-dropping stuff. I'm reminded of a Chicago Brahms 1 that Wand recorded for RCA: the brass is so glaring and piercingly loud that it actually destroyed any kind of listening pleasure. I suspect this is a Wand trait, but it comes off better with some orchestras - which suggests that the conductor is not apt to change his approach to fit the circumstances (hall and orchestra). Superbly alive timpani too. Unimpeachable coda: I can't think of anything that could have been done better.

The lyrical portions come off well too (the Trio of II, the first part of the Adagio), but the more mysterious, grieving, anguished bits get rather short shrift. I think in particular of the lull in I and III, as well as the whole coda to III. Grave and sonorous, but lacking emotion. All told, this Bruckner 8 comes off as remarkably dramatic and powerful, but it's short of what Jochum (Bamberg and Amsterdam) and Furtwängler find in the work's deeper recesses.

Eichhorn, Linz Bruckner Orchestra. Another extremely well played version. It displays the same kind of brass sound as the Cologne version, if with slightly warmer tone and rounder edges. Strings sound a little lightweight, but that's probably due to their number, not their tone production, which is actually very warm. Solid timpani playing. In many recordings the timpani are too blended into the texture (a typical Celibidache trait: the volume of sound swells without the instrument - the timps - having much of a presence). Not so here. Everything is perfectly balanced. Very natural conducting. This is perfectly satisfying Bruckner. It could very well serve as one's only version. Rock-solid and unflashy but full of the right kind of personality all the same. Eichhorn has good credentials for a top 10 list - towards the bottom.

I used to think of Kubelik's live BRSO version as one of the best. I now find too many allowances have to be made for orchestral errors (brass clams), as well as a rather unfeeling way with the Adagio. It's a fiery, dramatic performance where the musician's emotions and energies are fully engaged. But there have been so many great recordings of this work that I have a feeling it's lost quite a few rankings. Kubelik's 3 and 4 are firmly up there on my best list, and I wish he had recorded the  8 th commercially, preferably in Berlin or Vienna. I find the bavarians' tone slightly lightweight (same feeling with Böhm on Audite).


Finally, another Jochum recording. This time from Tahra, a 1949 performance with the Hessischen Rundfunk SO (Hessian Radio, namely the Frankfurt RSO). This dates from the time before the Nowak edition was out so, uncharacteristically, Jochum plays here the Haas version. This was taped a mere 4 months after the Hamburg recording that appeared on DGG. I have that one, but haven't listened to it yet. There should be some differences, as Hamburg had one of Germany's most impressive orchestras at the time, and it was done in the studio, not live as here. I confess to have been rather underwhelmed by this performance. In all honesty, I need to give it more airtime to arrive at a conclusion. This is typical of low-fi, historic recordings where too much is left out of the aural tapestry to make its full impact, and where the high end (treble) is uncomfortably strident. IOW this is technically deficient and will demand allowances for sonic considerations. What comes out is Jochum's mastery and real affection for the music. More listening is in order.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 13, 2010, 06:20:41 AM
Quote from: Barak on January 10, 2010, 11:10:45 AM
I haven't heard the Berlin Phil account, but if it ends with the same circus act, I'll pass it.

Yes, he makes the same accelerando in the Teldec recording. A Fürtwänglerian mannerism. I think it works in the coda of Barenboim's Fifth (at least I don't hate it there and it makes some sense in context with his  interpretation) but I'm less enthused when I hear it in the Eighth. It's why I'm not keen on Fürtwängler's Bruckner in general.

Quote
Wand Cologne RSO (Kölner RSO). Another big surprise...

Your review surprised me too because this is one of the very few CDs I've gotten rid of in 25 years...I disliked it that much. Maybe I threw it away too soon? Maybe it would have grown on me? The Szell comparison surprised me--I didn't hear a similiarity twenty years ago when I owned the Wand. Anyway, maybe I can persuade the guy I gave it to to give it back  ;D ...or at least let me borrow it so I can hear it again.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 14, 2010, 06:47:32 PM
Thanks for your comments, Sarge. The friend who sent me the Barenboim copy wrote his Chicago reading was a much better impersonation of Furtwangler than his later Berlin one .  But more bout that later...

You're quite right (very perceptive actually) to mention differences instead of convergences between Wand and Szell. It's gonna be hard to explain - a matter of perceptions, really. Szell has always had that way of making music from the score - not with the score. No doubt in my mind he was one of the greatest among the greats. What my comment hints at is that, when he performed a non-traditional score (Mahler 6, Bruckner 8 ) , he convinced you his view of the score is 100% legitimate, stemming from the notes (the ink and paper AND the tradition and culture they emanate from), not from any contemporaneous perception or extra-musical perception (alla Muti, Bernstein, Thielemann  :-X) -  even though you know he had *just* found his way into it. Barbirolli said it took him years to read a Mahler score, by which he meant coming to terms - and to grips - with its subtext. 

Back to Wand: honestly I think this is one of the truly excellent versions of the work (will probably end up in my top 10). There are many reasons for that, and you (anyone) need not agree with my perceptions for them. Szell has a monumental (never volatile) way with Bruckner 8. It's granitic, awesome, full of surprising touches - and it moves deliberately. But there's an edge to the playing that alerts you to the fact that there's searing drama being played here. Wand's orchestra has that same quality - honest, their brass give the clevelanders a run for their money. In terms of conducting, Wand is much more predictable - a total adherent to the score's tempo and dynamic markings - no rubato, no phrasing adjustments.  It's as strict as could possibly be imagined. But when all the marbles have ben played, it comes across as an almost explosive, volcanic reading, within the constraints of a very straightjacketed rythmic framework.

Re: Barenboim: yes, it is very furtwänglerian. But acquaintance with the 1944, 1949 and 1954 Furtwängler readings quickly leads me to identify the 1954 performance as Barenboim's model (for his Chicago version). True, furtwängler's trademark accelerando is present troughout, but the way he moves his orchestra in 1954 is uniquely instrumental - not orchestral. Again, a perception I can't really define. It's as if Furt was playing a violin in Vienna 1954. The orchestra becomes him, and vice-versa. That instrumental approach to the Bruckner sound-world is something Barenboim was able to appropriate without making it sound like he was aping anyone else. Barenboim is a pianist. He can make his instrument sound like an orchestra, and vice-versa. I mean, the guy has to have *some* talent, he can't be all fake  ::). I think Furtwängler had that too, when he conducted the WP. IOW he conducted the BP, while he led the WP.  Thanatos and Eros, Berlin the masculine and Vienna the feminine.

There is a perceptible - but indefinable - difference between conducting and leading. Wand and Szell conducted. Furtwängler, Bernstein and Jochum led. Böhm, Monteux, Karajan switched genres, depending on the repertoire.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 08, 2010, 06:15:00 PM
Moving on with the Barenboim CSO 8th coupling: the so-called 'zero' symphony. This work was discarded by Bruckner - not included in his numbered symphonies - even though it was written after # 1. The musical language is very much similar in both, but there are differences. Of particular interest in that work are the brass (trombones) bold pronouncements ending on a bass trill, a salient feature in the finale of the  much later 7th symphony. Then there is the bracing scherzo, so typical of Bruckner. The slow movement meanders without much direction here, It has the merit of brevity if anything else, being used more or less as an oasis of calm between the two flanking allegros. The orchestra is formidable indeed, and the recording is imposing, capturing every detail faithfully, down to every foot stomp from Barenboim - quite annoying - it sounds like someone is knocking the floor above you to make you turn the volume down.

It is not my intention to compare versions at this time, but if memory of other records in my collection serves, this is as good as Marriner - Stuttgart and possibly better than Haitink. Were it not for the annoying extra-musical sounds emanating from the podium, I would probably think of it as a number one choice.

The third  symphony Bruckner wrote is actually numbered his first. It marks the composer's official entrance into the symphonic world. Bruckner's first has long been a favourite in versions by Haitink and, much later, by Neumann. Volkmar Andreae is also very good (he recorded both the 'Linz' and 'Vienna' versions), but the playing is a bit brash and the sound dated. Tonight I heard for the firs time the 1969 WP recording made by Abbado (Decca). I found the first movement slightly subdued at first, but I realized that is part of Abbado's game plan. The first three movements are played with lithe, transparent textures, refined balances (everything is clearly heard) and much rythmic grace. Bruckner the ballet composer ! Lest that seem a perversion of sorts, it does make sense musically and is carried with the utmost beauty, precision and aplomb by conductor and orchestra. The finale then thunders forth with splendid sonic force and rythmic thrust. I was totally surprised by the sudden change in conception. It's a brilliant realization, as if the conductor was signalling the arrival of the mature Bruckner, leaving behind any intimation of inexperience or naivety. The recording, previously impeccably lustrous and vibrant acquires a bit of saturation as Abbado unleashes a maximum of decibels in the last few minutes. All told, I find this almost as good as Haitink (who has an even better orchestra) and Neumann (who is more thrusting from the word 'go'). Warmly recommended.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on February 09, 2010, 04:15:49 AM
I tried searching through this thread, but it's VERY loooong and it's tricky to pin point what I want with a simple word search.  So I apologize in advance for the irritation, but I wanted to get opinions on favorite Bruckner 7th

(a) in modern sound
(b) outside the box set (as in individual, twofers are also fine)

:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 09, 2010, 04:40:01 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 09, 2010, 04:15:49 AM
I tried searching through this thread, but it's VERY loooong and it's tricky to pin point what I want with a simple word search.  So I apologize in advance for the irritation, but I wanted to get opinions on favorite Bruckner 7th

(a) in modern sound
(b) outside the box set (as in individual, twofers are also fine)


No irritation at all.
Including, but not limited to...


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416V4UpmDBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Haitink,
CSO
CSO live (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000VR053O?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000VR053O)

Best of 2008
(Best of 2008 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=444))

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RQYQHHXNL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Rattle
CoBSO
EMI (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000002RYS?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000002RYS)

Don't look at me like that, everyone. It's actually really good.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BptHXrqzL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Wand
BPh
RCA (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004YMJ0?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00004YMJ0)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41X18SP9ZEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
HvK
BPh
DG (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000001GKC?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000001GKC)





Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 09, 2010, 05:06:06 AM
If available  - they tend to come and go, or switch labels - I can also recommend  Giulini or Böhm (both on DGG with the WP), Blomstedt (Dresden on Denon), Rögner (Berlin RSO, Berlin Classics) Gielen (SWF Baden-Baden), or Max Rudolf (Cincinnati). All are superb performances, with a strong, distinctive profile. Sound is excellent in all of them.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 09, 2010, 05:26:38 AM
I don't have many Sevenths (only ten on CD) so take my recommendations with a grain of salt. I've been so happy with Karajan/Berlin (EMI), Chailly/RSO Berlin, Welser-Möst/LPO and Klemp & Celi that I haven't searched out more recent performances. Welser-Möst is perhaps the surprising choice here. I heard him and the orchestra live in the Bruckner Seventh and although his take on the piece was very different than what I normally preferred then, he completely won me over by the end: the finale very swift, the coda taken in tempo to breathtaking effect. His recording stresses beauty and is perhaps a little bass shy but I still recommend it. EMI has it on a cheap twofer with a sensational Bruckner 5 (again the LPO but recorded live at the Konzerthaus, Vienna), the entire symphony no solemn monolith or piece of granitic stoicism and piety but instead taut, swift, and very dramatic, the way I've come to prefer this symphony (Dohnányi/Cleveland being the exemplar).  Be aware that both recordings include applause (well-deserved but potentially irritating). Desert island Seventh remains Chailly.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 09, 2010, 05:36:53 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 09, 2010, 04:40:01 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RQYQHHXNL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Rattle
CoBSO
EMI (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000002RYS?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000002RYS)

Don't look at me like that, everyone.



(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2009/Johnathan_Harris.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on February 09, 2010, 06:55:01 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 09, 2010, 04:15:49 AM
I tried searching through this thread, but it's VERY loooong and it's tricky to pin point what I want with a simple word search.  So I apologize in advance for the irritation, but I wanted to get opinions on favorite Bruckner 7th

(a) in modern sound
(b) outside the box set (as in individual, twofers are also fine)

:)

Quote from: jlaurson on February 09, 2010, 04:40:01 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41X18SP9ZEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
HvK
WPh [Corrected]
DG (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000001GKC?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000001GKC)

That is my first choice, single or otherwise. I also love and adore this one, apparently OOP as a single issue:


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WQP2dDbEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


Following that, and still for modern sound, Celibidache (EMI - I haven't yet heard the DG) is well worth hearing, if not quite as essential here as in the 4th and 8th, in my view; likewise the Haitink Jens linked above, a definite A, but not A+ for me.  :)

I feel I'm forgetting someone, though...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Keemun on February 09, 2010, 08:07:45 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 09, 2010, 04:40:01 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416V4UpmDBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I can't stand that one.  At least I couldn't when I last listened to it.  If I had to describe it in one word, "plodding" is the adjective that comes to mind.

Here are two of my favorite 7ths:

Karajan/VPO

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41X18SP9ZEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


Blomstedt/Staatskapelle Dresden

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/bb/26/2c29e893e7a07ceb037d6110.L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 09, 2010, 08:09:53 AM
Quote from: Keemun on February 09, 2010, 08:07:45 AM
Blomstedt/Staatskapelle Dresden

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/bb/26/2c29e893e7a07ceb037d6110.L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

The Blomstedt is one I've been hearing about all my life....never acquired a copy though. Love that cover.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on February 09, 2010, 08:16:29 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 09, 2010, 08:09:53 AM
The Blomstedt is one I've been hearing about all my life....never acquired a copy though. Love that cover.

Sarge

Now you have the chance, it's been recently re-released on Dal Segno, mid-budget priced.
It's extremely beautiful performance which puts me to sleep halfway through adagio everytime.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on February 09, 2010, 08:17:32 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 09, 2010, 08:09:53 AM
The Blomstedt is one I've been hearing about all my life....never acquired a copy though. Love that cover.

Sarge

That's the one I was forgetting!

Yes, definitely an A for me, probably better than the rest of the competition to Karajan and Walter, but not as good as either, for my taste. Meaning: it's a beautiful performance, but I found both Karajan and Walter far more probing in their readings.

It's less essential than it is polished and beautiful, yet by virtue of that, it's highly recommended. In other words, it won't make you listen to the symphony with new ears, but it will please your existing ears greatly. ;)


Quote from: Drasko on February 09, 2010, 08:16:29 AM
Now you have the chance, it's been recently re-released on Dal Segno, mid-budget priced.
It's extremely beautiful performance which puts me to sleep halfway through adagio everytime.

Hahaha, bingo! ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on February 09, 2010, 09:07:18 AM
Thanks everyone, it seems that it's highly competitive field but several have said that Karajan's recording is a must so I've ordered it. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on February 09, 2010, 08:20:09 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 09, 2010, 04:15:49 AM
I tried searching through this thread, but it's VERY loooong and it's tricky to pin point what I want with a simple word search.  So I apologize in advance for the irritation, but I wanted to get opinions on favorite Bruckner 7th

(a) in modern sound
(b) outside the box set (as in individual, twofers are also fine)

:)

For truly outside the box, there is Herreweghe leading the Orchestre de Champs Elysee on Harmonia Mundi. 

Yes, little boys and girls, it is a HIP performance.  I'm perfectly satisfied with it, but please note I'm far from a dedicated Brucknerian--my only other recording of the 7th is Jochum leading the Staatskapelle Dresden.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 10, 2010, 12:52:38 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on February 09, 2010, 08:20:09 PM
For truly outside the box, there is Herreweghe leading the Orchestre de Champs Elysee on Harmonia Mundi. 

Yes, little boys and girls, it is a HIP performance.  I'm perfectly satisfied with it...

That 7th with Herreweghe is actually quite lovely: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/11/dip-your-ears-no-17.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/11/dip-your-ears-no-17.html)

You've got a good one, by now (HvK), but for further reading about the 7th (slamming Solti's Vienna recording, mostly): http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/05/b7-solti-haitink-bhm-co.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/05/b7-solti-haitink-bhm-co.html)

Quotebut please note I'm far from a dedicated Brucknerian--my only other recording of the 7th is Jochum leading the Staatskapelle Dresden.

No need to apologize. It's not like we are so silly as to measure your love for music by the number of recordings you own of a particular piece.

Oh, wait. That's exactly what we do here.  ::)   :(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on February 10, 2010, 04:01:14 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on February 09, 2010, 08:20:09 PM
my only other recording of the 7th is Jochum leading the Staatskapelle Dresden.

Well that is one of my favs, I like the Berlin even more even though the sound is not as good.  I haven't heard Herreweghe's Bruckner, but I have and like his Faure Requiem, and most people would turn their nose up at that recording! :D  I think that Herreweghe creates for himself an interestingly unique sound world in the romantics. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on February 10, 2010, 04:12:59 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 09, 2010, 09:07:18 AM
Thanks everyone, it seems that it's highly competitive field but several have said that Karajan's recording is a must so I've ordered it. :) 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41X18SP9ZEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I will also give my highest recommendation to the Karajan WP 7th.........his final recording

Not only is it best 7th I have heard, but will also say it is probably finest Bruckner performance of any symphony by anyone I have heard......can't think of any that would rise above it

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on February 10, 2010, 08:13:13 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on February 09, 2010, 08:20:09 PM
For truly outside the box, there is Herreweghe leading the Orchestre de Champs Elysee on Harmonia Mundi. 

Yes, little boys and girls, it is a HIP performance.  I'm perfectly satisfied with it, but please note I'm far from a dedicated Brucknerian--my only other recording of the 7th is Jochum leading the Staatskapelle Dresden.

This is indeed an interesting performance, one I'm glad to have around. But it's like the remix, vs. the single. If that makes sense.

(For me, obviously.)

Quote from: DavidW on February 10, 2010, 04:01:14 AM
Well that is one of my favs, I like the [Jochum] Berlin even more even though the sound is not as good.

That one, the Berlin Jochum, is my fourth choice after Walter and Karajan (WP/DG and BPO/EMI), if we also count box-set versions. :D

Furtwängler would be a close fifth, then Celibidache (EMI), and then Karajan again (BPO/DG); then Blomstedt.


I'm surprised how clear my preferences in the 7th seem to be! I'd be hard-pressed to give an equally straight-up list for the 8th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on February 21, 2010, 07:16:22 PM
Quote from: Renfield on February 10, 2010, 08:13:13 AM
I'm surprised how clear my preferences in the 7th seem to be! I'd be hard-pressed to give an equally straight-up list for the 8th.

I have had the same reference Bruckner 8th for some time now.........
Also includes great Schubert 9th that is much better than Bohm boxset 9th

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31T8WPPN0KL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on February 21, 2010, 07:20:39 PM
 (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41X18SP9ZEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31T8WPPN0KL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416K5KAEQGL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

For the great  Bruckner crown jewels reference 7,8,9 symphonies

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on February 23, 2010, 04:47:21 PM
Quote from: Leo K on November 11, 2009, 02:21:12 AM
Also...have been enjoying this set, and the stunning transfers:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2008/July08/Bruckner_Furtwangler_CD1209.jpg)

The 1951 VPO #4 is out of this world.

The newest Music & Arts Furtwangler boxset above has been delivered, will begin listening sessions soon.......
I must say up front I am not huge fan of Furtwangler's Bruckner and find later stereo works by Karajan, Bohm, Jochum etc more rewarding, but there is much to learn here

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=200209 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=200209)


It will join these these Furtwangler Bruckner 8th peformances currently in my posession:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/418FKVX5P5L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31X6F2M6R6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N11XK4DJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on February 24, 2010, 12:55:01 AM
DarkAngel, apart from the 8th, I also (like Leo K) find the remasterings in that recording quite superb.

For the 8th, I prefer its DG incarnation. The M&A sounds a bit recessed in comparison. Though it my otherwise much-loved headphones of choice when I last heard it, the Sennheiser 280 Pro, might have been complicit to that result.

Performance-wise, I like the malleability of Furtwängler's Bruckner, and the genuine darkness (vs. just sounding big and mean). Especially the 7th and 9th are among my favourite performances of the works, in general, sound notwithstanding*.


*Not that the sound is bad per se, as I'm sure you've found out already. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: abidoful on February 24, 2010, 01:02:26 AM
Quote from: mahlertitan on April 06, 2007, 09:35:22 AM
just a question not related to the main topic. out of pure curiosity, why is that only males seem to enjoy the music of Bruckner?
my ex-girlfriend loved Bruckner
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on February 24, 2010, 04:35:40 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2008/July08/Bruckner_Furtwangler_CD1209.jpg)   (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N11XK4DJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Renfield
I thought the 10/17/1944 WP 8th contained in this newest Music & Arts boxset is the same as the the 1944 WP 8th used for the budget CDO label shown (there is no exact date given in booklet)

But the timings are very different so maybe not:

M & A: 79:11
CDO:   76:40
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on February 24, 2010, 05:09:26 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 24, 2010, 04:35:40 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2008/July08/Bruckner_Furtwangler_CD1209.jpg)   (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N11XK4DJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Renfield
I thought the 10/17/1944 WP 8th contained in this newest Music & Arts boxset is the same as the the 1944 WP 8th used for the budget CDO label shown (there is no exact date given in booklet)

But the timings are very different so maybe not:

M & A: 79:11
CDO:   76:40

I've always been suspicious of budget issues, when remastering can be a factor, so I haven't heard the CDO.

However, having a look at his discography, it seems there's only two versions of him conducting the VPO on the 8th on record. One is the M&A one from 1944, also issued on DG - the version I referred to. And the other is from 1954, issued (at least) on Andante.

In fact, I think it's in that set you have, which I sadly didn't pick up before it disappeared. :(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 27, 2010, 04:08:06 AM

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/02/ionarts-at-large-haitink-in-bruckner.html

Ionarts-at-Large: Haitink in Bruckner, Ozawa not in Bruckner (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/02/ionarts-at-large-haitink-in-bruckner.html)

With all due respect to Maestro Mariss Jansons who I much admire, it is a very good idea for the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra to have guest conductors take on the Anton Bruckner duties...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 27, 2010, 04:15:52 AM
Quote from: Renfield on February 24, 2010, 05:09:26 AM
In fact, I think it's in that set you have, which I sadly didn't pick up before it disappeared. :(

It's still in stock at amazon.fr  The copy I ordered last week has arrived.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on February 27, 2010, 04:23:29 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 27, 2010, 04:15:52 AM
It's still in stock at amazon.fr  The copy I ordered last week has arrived.

Sarge

Aha! Thanks Sarge.

Edit: Hold on, it was Amazon.fr I'd checked before. This (http://www.amazon.fr/Bruckner-derni%C3%A8res-symphonies-livret-Andante/dp/B00008V6VW/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1267277318&sr=8-7) is unavailable. Maybe an alternative listing?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 27, 2010, 04:43:47 AM
Quote from: Renfield on February 27, 2010, 04:23:29 AM
Aha! Thanks Sarge.

Edit: Hold on, it was Amazon.fr I'd checked before. This (http://www.amazon.fr/Bruckner-derni%C3%A8res-symphonies-livret-Andante/dp/B00008V6VW/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1267277318&sr=8-7) is unavailable. Maybe an alternative listing?

Isn't he talking about this (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B0012XIGZU?ie=UTF8&tag=nectarandambrfr-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1642&creative=19458&creativeASIN=B0012XIGZU)box of Furtwaengler's Bruckner?



Quote from: jlaurson on February 27, 2010, 04:08:06 AM

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/02/ionarts-at-large-haitink-in-bruckner.html

Ionarts-at-Large: Haitink in Bruckner, Ozawa not in Bruckner (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/02/ionarts-at-large-haitink-in-bruckner.html)

With all due respect to Maestro Mariss Jansons who I much admire, it is a very good idea for the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra to have guest conductors take on the Anton Bruckner duties...

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on February 27, 2010, 04:46:46 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 27, 2010, 04:43:47 AM
Isn't he talking about this (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B0012XIGZU?ie=UTF8&tag=nectarandambrfr-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1642&creative=19458&creativeASIN=B0012XIGZU)box of Furtwaengler's Bruckner?

Yes, that would make sense.

Sorry Sarge, I should have been clearer in my original comment. It was the Andante set I don't have.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 27, 2010, 04:48:53 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 27, 2010, 04:43:47 AM
Isn't he talking about this (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B0012XIGZU?ie=UTF8&tag=nectarandambrfr-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1642&creative=19458&creativeASIN=B0012XIGZU)box of Furtwaengler's Bruckner?

I was. Sorry, Renfield. I thought I knew which box you were talking about. The crowd can disperse now. Nothing to see here, folks.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on February 27, 2010, 04:54:46 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51O9cDou8wL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uJwSA-AFL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


Any comments on these recent Bruckner DVDs by Welser Most/Cleveland?
These are wide screen format and the 9th gets high praise at Amazon both visual and sound performance.

Not much new out there although I see the recent Boulez/WP 8th now available as DVD also

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TUnMOQgsL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on February 27, 2010, 05:29:58 AM
Quote from: Renfield on February 24, 2010, 05:09:26 AM
However, having a look at his discography, it seems there's only two versions of him conducting the VPO on the 8th on record. One is the M&A one from 1944, also issued on DG - the version I referred to.
And the other is from 1954, issued (at least) on Andante.

In fact, I think it's in that set you have, which I sadly didn't pick up before it disappeared.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31X6F2M6R6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Indeed.....the Andante set contains 4/24/1954 Furtwangler/VPO Bruckner 8th (nowak edition)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on March 02, 2010, 06:49:12 PM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2008/July08/Bruckner_Furtwangler_CD1209.jpg)

OK its official............you must own this boxset!

1951 WP 4th
This is extremely good performance in very good mono sound, not going to say the best because there so many great performances in better more modern sound, but this has a sense of power and authority that is almost unmatched, WP brass section is godlike

1942 BPO 5th
This is the best 5th I have ever heard, Sinopoli/DG has been dethroned......the sound quality is almost a miracle for 1942, unbelievable historical quality. This is a hard symphony to pull off and most conductors loose the long line and just kinda muddle through. Furtwangler has the full measure of this work and makes it sound more coherent and natural then any other I have heard, and the towering climaxes he builds will take your breath away...... this is a crown jewel, a reference 5th

1943 BPO 6th
This is missing the 1st movement (lost) but I can see why M&A put it in this set, sound is just a notch below the 5th but still excellent for 1943 by any standard, performance of what remains is nearly as impressive as 5th but there is more competition here from newer versions. Cut from the same cloth as 1942 5th, iron fist in a velvet glove that scales the heights like few others, a master at work here......

Next in line 1951 BPO 7th, 1944 WP 8th (Haas), 1944 BPO 9th......
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kentel on March 03, 2010, 10:54:58 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 02, 2010, 06:49:12 PM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2008/July08/Bruckner_Furtwangler_CD1209.jpg)

OK its official............you must own this boxset!

1951 WP 4th
This is extremely good performance in very good mono sound, not going to say the best because there so many great performances in better more modern sound, but this has a sense of power and authority that is almost unmatched, WP brass section is godlike

1942 BPO 5th
This is the best 5th I have ever heard, Sinopoli/DG has been dethroned......the sound quality is almost a miracle for 1942, unbelievable historical quality. This is a hard symphony to pull off and most conductors loose the long line and just kinda muddle through. Furtwangler has the full measure of this work and makes it sound more coherent and natural then any other I have heard, and the towering climaxes he builds will take your breath away...... this is a crown jewel, a reference 5th

1943 BPO 6th
This is missing the 1st movement (lost) but I can see why M&A put it in this set, sound is just a notch below the 5th but still excellent for 1943 by any standard, performance of what remains is nearly as impressive as 5th but there is more competition here from newer versions. Cut from the same cloth as 1942 5th, iron fist in a velvet glove that scales the heights like few others, a master at work here......

Next in line 1951 BPO 7th, 1944 WP 8th (Haas), 1944 BPO 9th......

I fully agree. I generally don't like Furtwängler that much but I was deeply impressed by this box set : everything is great, especially the 8th and the 9th which are among the best, and maybe the best I've ever heard (and I've heard loads of versions of these two).

And that's right, the sound is astonishing, especially in the takes from 1942, 43 & 44...

--Gilles
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on March 03, 2010, 12:42:41 PM
Quote from: kentel on March 03, 2010, 10:54:58 AM

And that's right, the sound is astonishing, especially in the takes from 1942, 43 & 44...

--Gilles

I too have caved... and agree. The set is worth it alone for the recordings from the 40s. I've never heard a Furtwaengler recording from the 50s (except Wagner) that I've deemed particularly great (certainly not those turgid Lucerne or Bayreuth Beethoven 9th), but the war-time recordings are unnerving, unsettling, with real fire (perhaps hell fire) burning within.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on March 03, 2010, 12:46:10 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 03, 2010, 12:42:41 PM
(certainly not those turgid Lucerne or Bayreuth Beethoven 9th)

:'(


Also, I feel unwarrantedly privileged for having had the box set everyone seems to be discovering right now for close to two years.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on March 03, 2010, 01:24:41 PM
Quote from: Renfield on March 03, 2010, 12:46:10 PM
:'(
Also, I feel unwarrantedly privileged for having had the box set everyone seems to be discovering right now for close to two years.

I feel equally privilaged everyone seems to be sharing how good it is without withholding such valuable information for close to two years... :P

This is on my list now.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on March 03, 2010, 01:39:33 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 03, 2010, 12:42:41 PM

...certainly not those turgid Lucerne or Bayreuth Beethoven 9ths...
Quote from: Renfield on March 03, 2010, 12:46:10 PM
:'(

Every once in a while, ya' have to take out the hammer.  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on March 03, 2010, 01:48:12 PM
Quote from: John on March 03, 2010, 01:24:41 PM
I feel equally privilaged everyone seems to be sharing how good it is without withholding such valuable information for close to two years... :P

This is on my list now.

Hey, I am quite certain I mentioned it two years back. Perhaps with less (deserved) extravagance, but I'd be surprised if I didn't.

Edit: Though not here, or in the Art of Furtwängler thread, I admit. I probably posted about it in the Purchases or Listening thread.


Quote from: jlaurson on March 03, 2010, 01:39:33 PM
Every once in a while, ya' have to take out the hammer.  ;)

I'd be less aggrieved if you didn't bunch them both into one category. $:)

;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Que on March 03, 2010, 03:55:20 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 03, 2010, 01:39:33 PM
Every once in a while, ya' have to take out the hammer.  ;)

Quote from: Renfield on March 03, 2010, 01:48:12 PM
I'd be less aggrieved if you didn't bunch them both into one category. $:)


Agreed with the last statement - the Lucerne LvB 9th is great and there is more great Furtwängler to be found from the '50s. The '51 Hamburg Brahms 1st and the '53 live Fidelio with the same cast as the EMI studio recording come to mind, as examples.

Q
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kentel on March 05, 2010, 12:05:58 PM
There is a ninth by Schuricht with the Stuttgart RSO in this 4cd box set  : maybe something has been said about this recording here but I couldn't find it.

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/UKMOVE/1070361.jpg)

I hated it : Schuricht is either too fast or too slow (with some curious accelerandos in the 1st mvt), his harsh phrasing is inadequate for this work (the scherzo sounds like a precipitated military march),  the brass section is terrible (among other things, there is an atrocious horn in the first minutes), and the (live) recording is far below what you could expect for a take from 1951.

--Gilles
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on March 05, 2010, 01:00:40 PM
None of several Schuricht ninths I heard were much to my liking, mostly because the same reasons you stated, many tempo relations he chose felt very odd to me.
Nor was I much enamored with few of his Stuttgart recordings I heard, again similar reasons.
But Schuricht's Bruckner can be very impressive at his considerable best. His VPO 5th and 8th (former on DG or Altus, latter on EMI) and BPO 7th (on Profil) should be heard.

As for vintage ninths Furtwangler and Kabasta would be my first options, and perhaps Hausegger in somewhat limited sound.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kentel on March 05, 2010, 01:07:25 PM
Quote from: Drasko on March 05, 2010, 01:00:40 PM
None of several Schuricht ninths I heard were much to my liking, mostly because the same reasons you stated, many tempo relations he chose felt very odd to me.
Nor was I much enamored with few of his Stuttgart recordings I heard, again similar reasons.
But Schuricht's Bruckner can be very impressive at his considerable best. His VPO 5th and 8th (former on DG or Altus, latter on EMI) and BPO 7th (on Profil) should be heard.

As for vintage ninths Furtwangler and Kabasta would be my first options, and perhaps Hausegger in somewhat limited sound.

Thanks for the tip, I've never heard the Kabasta  :) (and I enjoyed much the Furtwängler too).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on April 25, 2010, 09:44:30 AM
Listened to Chailly's Bruckner 3 today.  I had listened to the recording fairly recently and remember being not so impressed with the performance, but a repeat today has given a different result.  I guess I am just in a more receptive mood.  The development of themes in this work is perhaps not so brilliantly managed as in Bruckner's later works, but the work is abundant with beautiful harmonies and sonorities and majestic accumulations of sound.  The use of french horns in the opening pages of the finale is truly awe inspiring.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on April 25, 2010, 10:00:07 AM

Listening to Paavo's 9th right now. And either I've not listened to it before (and it was the 7th I sort of let run by my ears), or I didn't listen to it properly. I'm liking it a lot better now. (Though partly that's always because it's simply great music.) Sound is excellent; I just wonder how Sony can offer these new SACD releases at such low prices.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51297qtS-XL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
A.Bruckner
Symphony No.9
Frankfurt RSO, P.Jaervi
RCA SACD (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002K9C0Q6/goodmusicguide-20)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on April 25, 2010, 10:03:54 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 25, 2010, 10:00:07 AMI just wonder how Sony can offer these new SACD releases at such low prices.

RCA is part of Sony now?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on April 25, 2010, 10:05:34 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 25, 2010, 10:03:54 AM
RCA is part of Sony now?

...and has been, for what... 10 years now?

It entered the Sony family, along with DHM (Deutsche Harmonia Mundi) when BMG and Sony 'merged'.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on April 25, 2010, 10:13:11 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 25, 2010, 10:05:34 AM
...and has been, for what... 10 years now?

It entered the Sony family, along with DHM (Deutsche Harmonia Mundi) when BMG and Sony 'merged'.

BMG and Sony merged?  (Oh dear, I'm out of the loop.)

Odd that Sony charges top dollar for SACD on their own label but mid-price on RCA. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Kaiser on April 29, 2010, 05:30:24 PM
I've been really getting into Bruckner for a while now. I was initially hooked in by the 4th Symphony and have been cobbling together various other Symphonies. I haven't made it through all of his symphonies, but I was hung up on his 3rd for awhile. Today I got a copy of the 3rd by the Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Hartmut Haenchen (I think someone on this forum gave it a good review and I bought it for that reason). I have to say, this was the first one that clicked for me. Bruckner's music strikes me as very emotional, but not at all sentimental. And oddly addictive!
-------- Chris
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on May 01, 2010, 07:58:09 PM
Bruckner's 7th, has been up to this point, one of my least favorite of his symphonies.  I would say I liked it, but just never fell in love with it like every other symphony (except the 6th is also in the 'like' category).

However, this my have just changed with the 7th.  I was really swept away by Giulini and Wiener Philharmoniker on DG (1987), tested from the library.  Particularly, the first two movements.  The Adagio struck me just like so many people say are struck by.  It was just such a joyful, sublime experience with this recording.

Now that so many people list the Giulini/WP recording of the 9th as their favorite 9th, I'm dying to hear it!  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on May 01, 2010, 08:01:41 PM
You have a good time ahead of you, those Giulini studio recordings are magical. Just avoid the non-DG stuff unless it's well-reviewed - a couple of live archival releases I've heard have been mediocre.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on May 01, 2010, 08:09:05 PM
Quote from: Lethe on May 01, 2010, 08:01:41 PM
You have a good time ahead of you, those Giulini studio recordings are magical. Just avoid the non-DG stuff unless it's well-reviewed - a couple of live archival releases I've heard have been mediocre.

Yep. That said, the newish Testament ones seem to be quite great, at least as per the International Record Review.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on May 02, 2010, 01:03:19 AM
Quote from: Renfield on May 01, 2010, 08:09:05 PM
Yep. That said, the newish Testament ones seem to be quite great, at least as per the International Record Review.

They also got a very positive review in ARG.  "Top notch" sound as well according to the reviewer.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on May 02, 2010, 01:46:06 AM
I recall one of the ones that could do with avoiding was with a pickup orchestra, the "World Philharmonic" or somesuch - scrappy and bland. The Testament ones sound intriguing, though.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on May 02, 2010, 08:22:57 AM
Quote from: Lethe on May 02, 2010, 01:46:06 AM
I recall one of the ones that could do with avoiding was with a pickup orchestra, the "World Philharmonic" or somesuch - scrappy and bland. The Testament ones sound intriguing, though.

Oh, ick... yes... I reviewed his 8th with that orchestra (on DVD). http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/01/bruckner-on-dvd-carlo-maria-giulini-in.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/01/bruckner-on-dvd-carlo-maria-giulini-in.html)
Not at all a recommendation.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on May 02, 2010, 11:48:14 AM
If my finances allow it, I am likely to pick up the aforementioned Testament 7th and 8th via MDT, which has them on offer.

Should this happen, I will report back. :)

(Or: I will make a mental note not to misplace the discs while moving around the 'unripped' stacks, then listen to them, then report back. :P A lot of 'I will report back' CDs have gotten lost that way, over the last two years!)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 16, 2010, 12:58:06 PM
Interesting article in Stereophile (http://stereophile.com/musicrecordings/bruckners_symphony_no9_finally_a_ifinalei/) about attempts to complete the Ninth's Finale. Reviews of recordings are included. Has anyone heard Peter Jan Marthé's Bruckner CDs?

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on May 16, 2010, 11:04:43 PM
Intriguing, indeed. I have the Harnoncourt issue since it was first released (according to the article, more autograph pages of the finale have surfaced since) and I would love to listen to some of the completions mentioned. Any information regarding the more arcane items would be greatly appreciated.

PS. From the description, Marthé sounds like Nemtin on steroids (if possible).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on May 16, 2010, 11:13:01 PM
Quote from: kentel on March 05, 2010, 12:05:58 PM
There is a ninth by Schuricht with the Stuttgart RSO in this 4cd box set  : maybe something has been said about this recording here but I couldn't find it.

Why would anyone want that when there is a beautiful stereo recording with the VPO?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 17, 2010, 02:33:04 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 16, 2010, 11:04:43 PM
Intriguing, indeed. I have the Harnoncourt issue since it was first released (according to the article, more autograph pages of the finale have surfaced since) and I would love to listen to some of the completions mentioned. Any information regarding the more arcane items would be greatly appreciated.

I only own Harnoncourt's recording of the fragments. Don't own a completion. I'm interesting in the last recording he reviewed, the one by the Mannheim National Theater Orchestra. It's out of stock at www.abruckner.com but I live just twenty miles from the orchestra's home; I'm going to call them and see if the disc can be purchased directly from them.

QuotePS. From the description, Marthé sounds like Nemtin on steroids (if possible).

I listened to clips at Amazon. Marthé sounds slower than Celibidache! Apparently he's made his own edit of the Third, incorporating all the versions, placed the Scherzo second. This ain't Anton but might be fun to hear.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on May 17, 2010, 02:51:07 AM
Quote from: Daverz on May 16, 2010, 11:13:01 PM
Why would anyone want that when there is a beautiful stereo recording with the VPO?

The Bosch-Aachen set has a 'complete' 9th in modern Super Audio CD sound.

CD (Amazon.com) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001A8HU04?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B001A8HU04)

mp3 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002XV5DLA?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B002XV5DLA)

CD (Germany) (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000XTBBGK?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B000XTBBGK)

CD (UK) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000XTBBGK?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B000XTBBGK)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 17, 2010, 03:15:31 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 17, 2010, 02:51:07 AM
The Bosch-Aachen set has a 'complete' 9th in modern Super Audio CD sound.

It's readily available too. Howerver, the reviewer at Stereophile didn't like it: "And while the high-resolution sound is rich and lush, the acoustic of the sizable sanctuary in which this concert performance was too distantly miked, in combination with tempos too fast for the space as well as the music, result in a muddy, swimmy sound in which entire choirs of trombones or Wagner tubas are buried, virtually unheard under mounting layers of reverberation."

Have you heard it, Jens? Do you have a different opinion?

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on May 17, 2010, 04:59:58 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 17, 2010, 03:15:31 AM
It's readily available too. Howerver, the reviewer at Stereophile didn't like it: "And while the high-resolution sound is rich and lush, the acoustic of the sizable sanctuary in which this concert performance was too distantly miked, in combination with tempos too fast for the space as well as the music, result in a muddy, swimmy sound in which entire choirs of trombones or Wagner tubas are buried, virtually unheard under mounting layers of reverberation."

Have you heard it, Jens? Do you have a different opinion?

Sarge

I have it; listened to it a few times, but not with particular care. Mainly to get an idea about the Finale. I found it neither bad nor immediately meriting enthusiasm [like P.Jaervi's 9th--sans 4th mvt.], but I'll make note of it, once I've listened to it again.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: helios on May 17, 2010, 12:03:49 PM
Hi - quick question.  Have only gotten into Bruckner lately.   I've been listening to the 8th a lot.    Which ones would you recommend listening to next?

thanks $:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: some guy on May 17, 2010, 12:37:24 PM
Any.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on May 17, 2010, 01:13:16 PM
I really like the 4th, try that next. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on May 17, 2010, 01:14:18 PM
Quote from: DavidW on May 17, 2010, 01:13:16 PM
I really like the 4th, try that next. :)

Yes, I'd agree.  Try that one, or No. 7.  But they all have their pleasures. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on May 17, 2010, 02:12:09 PM
Quote from: helios on May 17, 2010, 12:03:49 PM
Hi - quick question.  Have only gotten into Bruckner lately.   I've been listening to the 8th a lot.    Which ones would you recommend listening to next?

I would just get a set, like either Jochum set. 

http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphonies-Complete-Anton/dp/B000B7VZRO

Otherwise, my order might be something like

7, 9, 6, 3, 4, 5, 2, 0, 1, 00
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on May 17, 2010, 02:17:08 PM
Quote from: Daverz on May 17, 2010, 02:12:09 PM
I would just get a set, like either Jochum set. 

http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphonies-Complete-Anton/dp/B000B7VZRO

Otherwise, my order might be something like

7, 9, 6, 3, 4, 5, 2, 0, 1, 00

Yes to set, yes to that one, and my order would be very similar:
9, 7, 6, 3, 4, 5, 2, 0, 1, 00
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on May 17, 2010, 02:54:16 PM
Quote from: helios on May 17, 2010, 12:03:49 PM
Hi - quick question.  Have only gotten into Bruckner lately.   I've been listening to the 8th a lot.    Which ones would you recommend listening to next?

thanks $:)

well, it's such a person matter--and so dependent on your mood, the quality of the recording/interpretation (and whether you respond to it), that any advice is borderline meaningless.

except: you have given us a hint with the 8th.

I'd say: not the easiest Bruckner to get started with; except it's what converted me, too...

And the most similar to the 8th is the 5th.   Followed by the 9th, I suppose, the the 6th, 3rd, 7th... then it doesn't matter anymore, because you'll either be hooked already or not yet.

The (allegedly) most popular 4th is the furthest from the 8th. I think it must be the most popular among people who otherwise don't particularly care for Bruckner.

I'd grab a copy of Celibidache's 5th (EMI, see below) and see where that leads you. Another cathedral for you to explore.


This might also help a little: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/bruckner-divine-and-beautiful.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/bruckner-divine-and-beautiful.html)

(then: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/search/label/Anton%20Bruckner (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/search/label/Anton%20Bruckner) or http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=121 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=121))

P.S. oh, yes: and DON'T get a cycle. One at a time; trying to get a particular, a special recording of each individual symphony before you move on to the next symphony. Cycles dilute the listening experience.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 17, 2010, 03:07:45 PM
Quote from: Daverz on May 17, 2010, 02:12:09 PM
I would just get a set, like either Jochum set. 

http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphonies-Complete-Anton/dp/B000B7VZRO

Otherwise, my order might be something like

7, 9, 6, 3, 4, 5, 2, 0, 1, 00

I would give contradictory advise.

Yes, a set is a good idea, especially since you can get the entire cycle for the price of a few symphonies.  The cycles encourage you to focus on the music rather than the conductor.  The Jochum set is good, but I prefer this one, which can be had for a bit under $50

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HKYBRRRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

On the other hand, there are different ways to perform Bruckner, and it might be more fun to explore a variety of different conductors and orchestras.  There is the hard driven Solti/CSO approach, the more autumnal Haitink approach, the monumental Karajan, the Urbane Chailly, etc. 

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: helios on May 22, 2010, 10:00:31 AM
thanks all :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Herman on May 23, 2010, 01:08:04 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cm8rujqAL._SS500_.jpg)

I think I have mentioned this cd before. Yesterday I listened to the Haitink Sixth again, the first Bruckner in a long long time, and I was overwhelmed by the beauty of the music and the wonderful sound of the Dresden Staatskapelle, exquisitely captured on this cd  -  the velvety sound of the strings and the amazing dynamic depth this orchestra has (completely absent on those horrible communist era recordings, where they just added a lot of empty ambience). This is what the SD really sounds like. Interestingly Haitink never ever lingers in this symphony and yet you wake up after the last note as if time has stood still.

I really should get the 8th + Mozart, too, in this same series.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on May 23, 2010, 01:29:51 AM
Quote from: Herman on May 23, 2010, 01:08:04 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cm8rujqAL._SS500_.jpg)

I think I have mentioned this cd before. Yesterday I listened to the Haitink Sixth again, the first Bruckner in a long long time, and I was overwhelmed by the beauty of the music and the wonderful sound of the Dresden Staatskapelle, exquisitely captured on this cd  -  the velvety sound of the strings and the amazing dynamic depth this orchestra has (completely absent on those horrible communist era recordings, where they just added a lot of empty ambience). This is what the SD really sounds like. Interestingly Haitink never ever lingers in this symphony and yet you wake up after the last note as if time has stood still.

I really should get the 8th + Mozart, too, in this same series.

The 8th doesn't quite live up to this marvelous 6th, but yes... that's one of the very top 6th to be had.
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=121 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=121)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on May 23, 2010, 07:51:42 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 23, 2010, 01:29:51 AM
The 8th doesn't quite live up to this marvelous 6th, but yes... that's one of the very top 6th to be had.
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=121 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=121)

Agreed on the 8th being less than it could be - though the 1st movement was quite strong.

And this 6th seems to have eluded me completely. I also lack Norrington's recent (and Gramophone-vaunted) effort, and Gielen's, which I expect to like, as I've liked pretty much all his work I've heard.

So is that three Hänssler/Profil Bruckner 6ths for me to get when I can?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on May 23, 2010, 11:04:22 AM
Quote from: Renfield on May 23, 2010, 07:51:42 AM

So is that three Hänssler/Profil Bruckner 6ths for me to get when I can?

Well, I think Norrington and Gielen are Haenssler & Haitink is PROFIL Haenssler, two totally different companies.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on May 23, 2010, 01:24:21 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 23, 2010, 11:04:22 AM
Well, I think Norrington and Gielen are Haenssler & Haitink is PROFIL Haenssler, two totally different companies.

I was aware of the distinction, but I thought they had some sort of common denominator as businesses.

Or is it like Harmonia Mundi and DHM, as your post seems to suggest. Just curious. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on May 23, 2010, 01:26:03 PM
Quote from: Renfield on May 23, 2010, 01:24:21 PM
I was aware of the distinction, but I thought they had some sort of common denominator as businesses.

Or is it like Harmonia Mundi and DHM, as your post seems to suggest. Just curious. :)

Mr. Haenssler sold "Haenssler Classics" and has nothing to do with it anymore; then he founded Profil Haenssler; independent company, different distribution et al.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Herman on May 23, 2010, 01:52:55 PM
Anybody heard Blomstedt's Brukner Six, with the Dresdener Staatskapelle, also on Profil?

I think it was Blomstedt's 6th, with the Concertgebouw, back in the mid-eighties, live, that definitely turned me on to this symphony.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on May 23, 2010, 10:49:21 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 23, 2010, 01:26:03 PM
Mr. Haenssler sold "Haenssler Classics" and has nothing to do with it anymore; then he founded Profil Haenssler; independent company, different distribution et al.

I see; thank you. Interesting.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: The new erato on May 24, 2010, 02:09:25 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 23, 2010, 11:04:22 AM
Well, I think Norrington and Gielen are Haenssler & Haitink is PROFIL Haenssler, two totally different companies.
I wasn't aware of that and always assumed PROFIL Haenssler to be a Hanssler series. Useful knowledge. Thanks.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2010, 08:51:53 AM
I'm usually on my way to Ohio this time of year, and in fact had planned to see the Cleveland Orchestra's final concert of the season. But circumstances (mostly health-related) are keeping me in Germay this spring and summer. Reading this Plain Dealer article (http://www.cleveland.com/musicdance/index.ssf/2010/05/post_57.html) about the upcoming concert, I'm now even more disappointed. It's rare we get the opportunity to hear Bruckner's original Eighth.

The reason I'm posting this: any thoughts on the original vs revised versions? Pace Welser-Möst I think the original, while interesting, is clearly inferior. I think that Coriolan-like ending to the first movement, quiet, tragic, is one of the most profound things he ever wrote; it's both musically and emotionally more logical and satisfying than the forced,  "tacked on " happy ending fanfares of the original. When listening to the original, I miss the harps in the Trio. Kind of like the triple woodwind and more prominent horns though.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 24, 2010, 08:56:46 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2010, 08:51:53 AM
I'm usually on my way to Ohio this time of year, and in fact had planned to see the Cleveland Orchestra's final concert of the season. But circumstances (mostly health-related) are keeping me in Germay this spring and summer. Reading this Plain Dealer article (http://www.cleveland.com/musicdance/index.ssf/2010/05/post_57.html) about the upcoming concert, I'm now even more disappointed. It's rare we get the opportunity to hear Bruckner's original Eighth.

The reason I'm posting this: any thoughts on the original vs revised versions? Pace Welser-Möst I think the original, while interesting, is clearly inferior. I think that Coriolan-like ending to the first movement, quiet, tragic, is one of the most profound things he ever wrote; it's both musically and emotionally more logical and satisfying than the forced,  "tacked on " happy ending fanfares of the original. When listening to the original, I miss the harps in the Trio. Kind of like the triple woodwind and more prominent horns though.

Sarge

I have Inbal's recording of the original and aside from a few interesting details I found it inferior.  My main gripe is that (if I recall correctly) my favorite passage in all of classical music, which comes in the first movement coda, was not present in the original.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Franco on May 24, 2010, 09:30:36 AM
(http://blog.chosun.com/web_file/blog/365/365/6/Bruckner_Sym07_EFma_Jarvi06_RCA88697389972.jpg)

Anyone heard this?  He's also done the 9th, maybe others, and I think he is embarking on a complete cycle.  I enjoyed his Beethoven, but that style would not really be suitable for Bruckner, IMO - so it makes me wonder what he would bring to these works.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 24, 2010, 09:42:27 AM
Quote from: Franco on May 24, 2010, 09:30:36 AMAnyone heard this?  He's also done the 9th, maybe others, and I think he is embarking on a complete cycle.  I enjoyed his Beethoven, but that style would not really be suitable for Bruckner, IMO - so it makes me wonder what he would bring to these works.

Why do you assume he would use the same style to perform Beethoven and Bruckner? 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Franco on May 24, 2010, 09:51:14 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 24, 2010, 09:42:27 AM
Why do you assume he would use the same style to perform Beethoven and Bruckner?

I don't assume he would use the same style, I would naturally think he might do otherwise, but without having heard them,  I am asking if anyone here has heard his recordings - so as to find out.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 24, 2010, 10:08:26 AM
Quote from: Franco on May 24, 2010, 09:51:14 AM
I don't assume he would use the same style, I would naturally think he might do otherwise, but without having heard them,  I am asking if anyone here has heard his recordings - so as to find out.

I see.  I notice that both Paavo and papa Jarvi and releasing Bruckner these days.  The main draw is that they are SACD surround discs, but in that catagory I am more tempted by this series:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51akTPTwnqL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on May 24, 2010, 12:51:36 PM
Quote from: Franco on May 24, 2010, 09:30:36 AM
(http://blog.chosun.com/web_file/blog/365/365/6/Bruckner_Sym07_EFma_Jarvi06_RCA88697389972.jpg)

Anyone heard this?  He's also done the 9th, maybe others, and I think he is embarking on a complete cycle.  I enjoyed his Beethoven, but that style would not really be suitable for Bruckner, IMO - so it makes me wonder what he would bring to these works.

I don't know if Scarpia knows or counter-assumes, but in any case he is on the right track: These Bruckner recordings are VERY different, stylistically, than the Beethoven recordings. For one, it's a VERY different orchestra.

Still, his 9th is awesome; his 7th wasn't immediately something I stopped in my tracks for, but I need to re-listen more vigorously.

Re: Franco -- I didn't know Neeme was doing Bruckner (in SACD), too. What label for? What orchestra with?
I'm not yet enamored by Janowski's Bruckner.

Speaking of SACD Bruckner, here's some news:

QuoteMINNESOTA ORCHESTRA'S RECORDING OF BRUCKNER'S FOURTH SYMPHONY
led by Music Director Osmo Vänskä released by BIS

Bruckner's Fourth Symphony is the 454th work the Minnesota Orchestra has recorded since 1924

The Swedish label BIS Records has released a recording of Bruckner's Fourth Symphony, known as the Romantic, performed by Music Director Osmo Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra.  The disc, the newest chapter of the highly-acclaimed collaboration between BIS, Mr. Vänskä and the Orchestra, is now available through the Orchestra's website at minnesotaorchestra.org, and will also be available in stores and as a download on major internet music sites.

Mr. Vänskä and the Orchestra recorded the Fourth Symphony at Minneapolis' Orchestra Hall in sessions during January

The BIS team, led by producer Rob Suff, recorded the album as a Super Audio CD (SACD), using surround sound recording technology to reproduce the sound of the concert hall as faithfully as possible.  BIS Hybrid SACDs are playable on all standard CD players.

Mr. Vänskä and the Orchestra have earned high praise for their prior recording projects together, including a five-disc Beethoven symphony cycle with BIS that was described as "maybe the definitive [cycle] of our time" (The New York Times); the recordings earned honors including a Grammy nomination for the Ninth Symphony recording and a Classic FM Gramophone Award nomination for the disc of the Second and Seventh.  The Orchestra is now recording all five Beethoven piano concertos with soloist Yevgeny Sudbin, also for BIS.

The Minnesota Orchestra (founded as the Minneapolis Symphony Orchestra) issued its first recording in 1924, and has since recorded more than 450 works.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on May 24, 2010, 12:56:50 PM
I believe they're also performing it live in this year's Proms, in London. Along with the Beethoven 9th (the next day).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 24, 2010, 12:58:27 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 24, 2010, 12:51:36 PMRe: Franco -- I didn't know Neeme was doing Bruckner (in SACD), too. What label for? What orchestra with?

No indication that a cycle is in the works, but Chandos has released a recording of  Bruckner 5 with Neeme Jarvi and the resident orchestra of The Hague

(http://www.chandos.net/Catalogue/CatalogueImages/CHAN%205080.jpeg)

I saw it on Chandos' new release page along with a blurb saying that Neeme Jarvi is the leading Bruckner interpreter in the world and that the 5th is by far Bruckner's most popular symphony.  I'm not sure which claim is more ludicrous.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on May 24, 2010, 12:59:56 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 24, 2010, 12:58:27 PM
(http://www.chandos.net/Catalogue/CatalogueImages/CHAN%205080.jpeg)

I saw it on Chandos' new release page along with a blurb saying that Neeme Jarvi is the leading Bruckner interpreter in the world and that the 5th is by far Bruckner's most popular symphony. I'm not sure which claim is more ludicrous.
;D ;D :D ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on May 24, 2010, 05:27:13 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2010, 08:51:53 AM
I'm usually on my way to Ohio this time of year, and in fact had planned to see the Cleveland Orchestra's final concert of the season. But circumstances (mostly health-related) are keeping me in Germay this spring and summer. Reading this Plain Dealer article (http://www.cleveland.com/musicdance/index.ssf/2010/05/post_57.html) about the upcoming concert, I'm now even more disappointed. It's rare we get the opportunity to hear Bruckner's original Eighth.

The reason I'm posting this: any thoughts on the original vs revised versions? Pace Welser-Möst I think the original, while interesting, is clearly inferior. I think that Coriolan-like ending to the first movement, quiet, tragic, is one of the most profound things he ever wrote; it's both musically and emotionally more logical and satisfying than the forced,  "tacked on " happy ending fanfares of the original. When listening to the original, I miss the harps in the Trio. Kind of like the triple woodwind and more prominent horns though.

Sarge

I've seen (but not heard) a Naxos recording of Tintner conducting the original version of the 8th coupled with the "Nullte" symphony (it's a two CD set, with the last movement of the 8th and the Nullte on the second CD).

My (only) recordings of the First through Third are part of this Naxos/Tintner series.  I'm not enamored of them,  but without comparison versions, I can't say if the fault is Tintner's or Bruckner's.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on May 25, 2010, 04:58:18 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on May 24, 2010, 05:27:13 PM
I've seen (but not heard) a Naxos recording of Tintner conducting the original version of the 8th coupled with the "Nullte" symphony (it's a two CD set, with the last movement of the 8th and the Nullte on the second CD).

My (only) recordings of the First through Third are part of this Naxos/Tintner series.  I'm not enamored of them,  but without comparison versions, I can't say if the fault is Tintner's or Bruckner's.

Tintner's fault.  Tintner's Bruckner is boring as sin.  Try Jochum with Staatskapelle Dresden, Karajan or Haitink.  Try any conductor besides Tintner, basically.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Keemun on May 25, 2010, 05:11:24 AM
Quote from: Brahmsian on May 25, 2010, 04:58:18 AM
Tintner's fault.  Tintner's Bruckner is boring as sin.  Try Jochum with Staatskapelle Dresden, Karajan or Haitink.  Try any conductor besides Tintner, basically.  :)

Amen!  It wouldn't have taken me nearly as long as it did to enjoy Bruckner's symphonies if I hadn't started off with Tintner's recordings.  I hear doctors are using them as drug-free alternatives to induce comas.  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2010, 05:43:00 AM
Poor Tintner, being ganged up on. He was a very great Brucknerian but his style isn't to everyone's taste...obviously  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 25, 2010, 06:14:40 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2010, 05:43:00 AM
Poor Tintner, being ganged up on. He was a very great Brucknerian but his style isn't to everyone's taste...obviously  :D

And not around to defend himself, since he tossed himself out a window.   :(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on May 25, 2010, 09:54:02 AM
I feel that if Tintner can produce such a solid 9th with an un-ideal orchestra in a highly competetive field (almost all using the same version of the score), then he's pretty good. I've found that his recordings are deeply considered, and like historical recordings you must somewhat listen beyond the recordings to see what he is doing - it's really non interventionist, but he shapes everything with such care. Even when he is making a decisions I don't care for (such as slow tempi) I prefer his Bruckner over many of the slickly produced autopilot run-throughs from the past 10-20 years (and beyond).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 25, 2010, 10:03:26 AM
Quote from: Lethe on May 25, 2010, 09:54:02 AMI prefer his Bruckner over many of the slickly produced autopilot run-throughs from the past 10-20 years (and beyond).

What would you consider an example of a slickly produced autopilot run-through?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on May 25, 2010, 10:16:31 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 25, 2010, 10:03:26 AM
What would you consider an example of a slickly produced autopilot run-through?
A most recent example would be Nézet-Séguin, recordings which some people rave about but in reality are just "nice" sounding, plushifying the music with very little that feels deeply-considered. Others that come to mind are López-Cobos (relentlessly second-tier in almost anything he does) and Davis (including a magnificently irksome 9th on LSO Live).

Edit: although on consideration, the Davis could possible not be considered a "run-through" - as to get everything so wrong requires some kind of close attention.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 25, 2010, 10:23:25 AM
Quote from: Lethe on May 25, 2010, 10:16:31 AM
A most recent example would be Nézet-Séguin, recordings which some people rave about but in reality are just "nice" sounding, plushifying the music with very little that feels deeply-considered. Others that come to mind are López-Cobos (relentlessly second-tier in almost anything he does) and Davis (including a magnificently irksome 9th on LSO Live).

Edit: although on consideration, the Davis could possible not be considered a "run-through" - as to get everything so wrong requires some kind of close attention.

I tend to agree about Lopez-Cobos recordings being sort of nondescript, although I value his Telarc recordings for the extremely natural audio-engineering.  Some of the few recordings that convey what an orchestra really sounds like, I'd say.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on May 25, 2010, 10:26:42 AM
Quote from: Lethe on May 25, 2010, 10:16:31 AM
A most recent example would be Nézet-Séguin, recordings which some people rave about but in reality are just "nice" sounding, plushifying the music with very little that feels deeply-considered. Others that come to mind are López-Cobos (relentlessly second-tier in almost anything he does) and Davis (including a magnificently irksome 9th on LSO Live).

I don't know who those people are because those are not highly discussed recordings.  It sounded like you were attacking recordings from Scrowaczewski, Barenboim etc you know ones that are actually talked about?  It doesn't seem that note worthy to say that Tintner is at least as good as the very mediocre López-Cobos! :D  That doesn't really mean much.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on May 25, 2010, 10:53:23 AM
Hehe, re. the López-Cobos thing, I mean that rather than being a case of absolute "these are both 3/5 star recordings and so are equal", it's more that the assets of one (good recorded sound) are less worthwhile than what Tintner offers, which are somewhat non-mainstream, non-showy (in the sense of the impressively recorded and played core recommendations such as Karajan and Wand). Tintner's assets may be less viscerally pleasing, but has a lot to offer if those are not high priorities of a listener, insights which fly far above the heads of certain conductors including the ones I listed.

Masur I would offer as a choice over Barenboim and Scrowaczewski for a rather pointless cycle that is well-distributed and by a well-known conductor. It sounds very good and would not turn off a newbie, but offers nothing that is not found elsewhere. Scrowaczewski does play things straight, but it's too good to dismiss so easily, with a really clear-headed view of how each symphony will play out. Like some others I have a rather "eww" reaction towards the Barenboim for reasons I cannot pin down, but it's a creative cycle even if only Sarge would consider it a first choice.

I'm probably going to find myself having pissed on a few too many boots by now ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 25, 2010, 11:00:36 AM
Quote from: Lethe on May 25, 2010, 10:53:23 AMMasur I would offer as a choice over Barenboim and Scrowaczewski for a rather pointless cycle that is well-distributed and by a well-known conductor. It sounds very good and would not turn off a newbie, but offers nothing that is not found elsewhere. Scrowaczewski does play things straight, but it's too good to dismiss so easily, with a really clear-headed view of how each symphony will play out. Like some others I have a rather "eww" reaction towards the Barenboim for reasons I cannot pin down, but it's a creative cycle even if only Sarge would consider it a first choice.

Actually, Bruckner is a composer for which almost no recordings are unwelcome to me.   I'd say his works are essentially unperformable, so almost every recording brings something to the fore that I have missed in other recordings.   I am must starting to make my way through the Barenboim cycle, as well as the Chailly, and in no case do I feel that "yes, finally this is how it is supposed to sound" but neither to I fail to find them worth hearing.  That said, I have never heard the Tintner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Opus106 on May 25, 2010, 11:06:50 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 25, 2010, 11:00:36 AM
That said, I have never heard the Tintner.

The MP3 of the 9th (http://www.amazon.com/Love-80s-Vol-1880s/dp/B002RHVBHU/ref=pd_sim_dmusic_a_2) is still available for free, from Amazon, if you're interested.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Franco on May 25, 2010, 11:20:37 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2010, 05:43:00 AM
Poor Tintner, being ganged up on. He was a very great Brucknerian but his style isn't to everyone's taste...obviously  :D

Sarge

There are a couple of nay-sayers, but the reviewers at Amazon give Tintner high marks:

QuoteMagnificent, Unique Bruckner from a Remarkable Conductor
Probably the Best Set of the Bruckner Symphonies
The best all digital Bruckner by far
Indispensable
Uneven Bruckner
Not Perfect but indispensible
spectacularly persuasive performances
Great interpretations, superbly recorded
Provincial & Un-Inspired
GLORIOUSLY AFFORDABLE BRUCKNER CYCLE
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 25, 2010, 11:27:43 AM
Gloriously affordable sums it up.   8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DarkAngel on May 25, 2010, 11:48:51 AM
Quote from: Brahmsian on May 25, 2010, 04:58:18 AM
Tintner's fault. Tintner's Bruckner is boring as sin.  Try Jochum with Staatskapelle Dresden, Karajan or Haitink. Try any conductor besides Tintner, basically.  :)

Tintner/Naxos 00-3 symphonies are very good in modern sound, but 4-9 do not hold up against much stronger versions

Now that Karajan/DG boxset is widely available at low prices best complete sets for me are definitely Karajan and  Jochum
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Keemun on May 25, 2010, 11:54:15 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 25, 2010, 11:06:50 AM
The MP3 of the 9th (http://www.amazon.com/Love-80s-Vol-1880s/dp/B002RHVBHU/ref=pd_sim_dmusic_a_2) is still available for free, from Amazon, if you're interested.

Thanks, Navneeth.  I've not heard Tintner's 9th, and since it is free, I will listen to it to see if it is any better than the others I've heard. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on May 25, 2010, 12:30:17 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on May 25, 2010, 11:48:51 AM

Tintner/Naxos 00-3 symphonies are very good in modern sound, but 4-9 do not hold up against much stronger versions

Now that Karajan/DG boxset is widely available at low prices best complete sets for me are definitely Karajan and  Jochum

That is my impression with Tintner as well, and Jochum. ;D  I still plan on getting the whole Karajan set, his 7th though is wonderful. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Herman on May 25, 2010, 01:08:13 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 25, 2010, 11:00:36 AM
I'd say his works are essentially unperformable, so almost every recording brings something to the fore that I have missed in other recordings. 

What makes you say Bruckner is essentially unperformable?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on May 25, 2010, 01:14:41 PM
Re Tintner, I largely agree with Lethe. I wouldn't rank his cycle in the top 3, but he has insight and idiom aplenty, to make up for the occasional dragging tempo, and orchestral fluff. And his 9th is really very good!

Probably the only one in his cycle that is near-uniformly good, though. I think that's where the problem lies.


That said, I prefer almost all of Tintner's Bruckner to Karajan's recording of the 6th, if we're talking 'alternative vs. mainstream'.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 25, 2010, 03:20:46 PM
Quote from: Herman on May 25, 2010, 01:08:13 PM
What makes you say Bruckner is essentially unperformable?

Just that the orchestral textures are sometimes so dense that it is impossible to hear everything that is going on.  Almost every recording I listen to brings something out that I was never aware of before.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on May 25, 2010, 05:51:12 PM
Quote from: Lethe on May 25, 2010, 10:16:31 AM
Others that come to mind are López-Cobos (relentlessly second-tier in almost anything he does) and Davis (including a magnificently irksome 9th on LSO Live).

Edit: although on consideration, the Davis could possible not be considered a "run-through" - as to get everything so wrong requires some kind of close attention.


Hmm.   I always knew there was a reason I didn't like that recording....
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on May 26, 2010, 12:12:31 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 25, 2010, 03:20:46 PM
Just that the orchestral textures are sometimes so dense that it is impossible to hear everything that is going on.  Almost every recording I listen to brings something out that I was never aware of before.

Have you heard Bruckner live? Despite not generally having problems with Bruckner, I was still very impressed at the amount of detail that comes through in a live performance, provided the orchestra and conductor are up to snuff.

So I might correct that statement (as far as I'm concerned) to 'essentially unrecordable'.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Herman on May 26, 2010, 12:22:57 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 25, 2010, 03:20:46 PM
Just that the orchestral textures are sometimes so dense that it is impossible to hear everything that is going on.  Almost every recording I listen to brings something out that I was never aware of before.

This goes for pretty much all symphonic music after Schubert, when you're having to listen to it at home. But I don't think Bruckner is that dense, since his textures are usually quite straightforward. His orchestration is not really that terribly complex (and I'm not saying it's dumb); there's a large YSWYG element in Bruckner's music.

And of course it's much better to listen to Bruckner live. Not only do you get to hear much more (and the eye assists the ear), but that sense of shared awe is an integral part of Bruckner's music.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: greg on May 26, 2010, 05:16:20 AM
Quote from: Herman on May 26, 2010, 12:22:57 AM
But I don't think Bruckner is that dense, since his textures are usually quite straightforward. His orchestration is not really that terribly complex (and I'm not saying it's dumb); there's a large YSWYG element in Bruckner's music.
I agree with this- just look at a Bruckner score and then look at a score with anything that comes later- for example, Strauss, Mahler, Schoenberg, etc. Bruckner isn't simple, but he's simpler than their scores, though that's only natural given how music evolved.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 26, 2010, 06:06:16 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on May 25, 2010, 11:48:51 AM
Tintner/Naxos 00-3 symphonies are very good in modern sound, but 4-9 do not hold up against much stronger versions

Quote from: DavidW on May 25, 2010, 12:30:17 PM
That is my impression with Tintner as well

And my impression too....which is why I stopped collecting his cycle after acquiring 1, 2 and 3. But I realize that's unfair and I owe him a fair hearing so I've ordered 4, 7, 8, 9 and 00. They are so cheap I'll lose almost nothing if they turn out to be less than great. You know, though, Hurwitz loves Tintner. This will be another opportunity to see if the Hurwitzer and I agree.  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 26, 2010, 06:27:53 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 26, 2010, 06:06:16 AMThey are so cheap I'll lose almost nothing if they turn out to be less than great.

Except time...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 26, 2010, 06:51:45 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 26, 2010, 06:27:53 AM
Except time...

Heck, I waste time all the time. I'm here, aren't I?  ;D

Besides, I'm not yet convinced his Bruckner isn't worth hearing.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on May 26, 2010, 08:10:35 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 26, 2010, 06:06:16 AM
And my impression too....which is why I stopped collecting his cycle after acquiring 1, 2 and 3. But I realize that's unfair and I own him a fair hearing so I've ordered 4, 7, 8, 9 and 00. They are so cheap I'll lose almost nothing if they turn out to be less than great. You know, though, Hurwitz loves Tintner. This will be another opportunity to see if the Hurwitzer and I agree.  ;D

Sarge

Tintner introduced me to #8 (after liking his recordings of #1-3) and left me COLD, which was a first for a Bruckner symphony.  I thought it was the symphony.  But I bought another recording, Maazel, and then I really started liking it. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 26, 2010, 08:28:57 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 26, 2010, 06:51:45 AM
Heck, I waste time all the time. I'm here, aren't I?  ;D

Besides, I'm not yet convinced his Bruckner isn't worth hearing.

Sarge

Well, he performs the original version which, among other things, has the original loud ending of the first movement.  Probably every Bruckner nut should have at least one recording of this version of the 8th.  I have Inbal, so I'm set. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 26, 2010, 08:39:09 AM
Quote from: DavidW on May 26, 2010, 08:10:35 AM
Tintner introduced me to #8 (after liking his recordings of #1-3) and left me COLD, which was a first for a Bruckner symphony.  I thought it was the symphony.  But I bought another recording, Maazel, and then I really started liking it. :)

I'm not surprised...that is the best Bruckner 8th (well, I think so anyway  ;) )

Quote from: Scarpia on May 26, 2010, 08:28:57 AM
Well, he performs the original version which, among other things, has the original loud ending of the first movement.  Probably every Bruckner nut should have at least one recording of this version of the 8th.  I have Inbal, so I'm set. 

I have Inbal too but I find it rather boringly played. That's one reason I'm investing in Tintner--hoping for a more interesting interpretation (that and because it's the only way to get his recording of Die Nullte).

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on May 26, 2010, 05:48:13 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 26, 2010, 08:39:09 AM
his recording of Die Nullte).

That one is actually really good. Or: I like that one a lot. Enough to feel that it justifies the purchase of two discs also containing a dud 8th.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2010, 07:10:28 AM
Renfield, a few pages back, mentioned Norrington's Bruckner Sixth--which peaked my interest. I bought that Sixth (plus 3, 4 and 7).

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2010/Bru6nor.jpg)

I've heard it several times now and compared it with a few other Sixths in my collection. Two things are noticable immediately (and will come as no surprise): swift tempos and strings played without vibrato. As someone who has lived by the motto, Bruckner cannot be played too slowly...and the slower the better, I would have been violently opposed to Norrington's choice of tempos a few years ago. But Dohnányi, among other conductors, has shown me that in the Fifth and Sixth symphonies, anyway, a swifter more dramatic, slashing approach to music that is essentially undramatic can actually work. Norrington's first movement sounds bracing not objectionable.

The violins do sound anemic, though, sometimes very undernourished. That seems to be a result of both the lack of vibrato and Norrington's decision to let the winds and brass be more prominent in the mix. If you want a large, lush string sound Norrington will not oblige but that has the benefit of uncovering much detail in the brass and woodwind which is projected with startling clarity. Timpani too make quite an impact (I found myself wishing Bruckner had written a few more entries for the timps. Where's Marthé when you need him?  ;D ).

In the past Norrington often disappointed me in slow movements: so emotionally neutral as to become a parody of the stiff-upper-lipped Englishman. Not so here. It's the most moving thing I've ever heard him do. The weak strings, strongly projected winds and brass reveal some shocking, painful dissonances in this movement that are damn near heartbreaking.

There is nothing particulary controversial about the Scherzo. But that Finale...!!!  I laughed initially. No...he can't be serious. Timings from the beginning of the movement to the beginning of the lyrical second subject:

Fürtwängler     1:52
Klemperer        1:52
Stein                1:51
Dohnányi         1:48
Celibidache      1:43
Norrington       1:27 

Total time for Norrington's last movement: 12:08

Imagine Norrington, on the podium, slam dancing. That's what I heard ;D  ...and I liked it! Yeah, it completely ignores Bruckner's doch nicht zu schnell instruction. That should make it wrong, and I suppose it is wrong. The second subject, marginally slower, still doesn't sound quite right at this speed. But in the development Norrington does slow down, begins to dig deeper and uncovers all the beauty and mystery that's in the music. The chorale in the recapitulation is caressed lovingly before he sprints to the finsh. Listened to a second, and a third time, the dramatic contrasts in tempo begin to make sense. He won me over anyway. The audience responds with, I assume, shocked silence and only slowly begins an ovation...turning rowdy as the recording fades away. Wish I'd been there.

This goes into the favorites pile along wth Celibidache, Klemperer, Stein, Dohnányi.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 27, 2010, 07:47:05 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2010, 07:10:28 AMThis goes into the favorites pile along wth Celibidache, Klemperer, Stein, Dohnányi.

Sarge

I've never had the urge to listen to a Norrington recording a second time, but now you have me curious.  That is an accomplishment in itself.   ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2010, 07:47:59 AM
I found this little gem in a capsule review of Norrington's Fourth (the symphony with the main theme played by the horn):

"Had Wagner's Siegfried been blessed with a brain, his journey might have sounded like this."   :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2010, 07:51:02 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 27, 2010, 07:47:05 AM
I've never had the urge to listen to a Norrington recording a second time, but now you have me curious.  That is an accomplishment in itself.   ;D

Ah, good...then my work here is done. Time for supper.  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on May 27, 2010, 08:02:00 AM
I am very happy to report that Herbert Blomstedt's Bruckner Seventh, with the Staatskapelle Dresden, is now available on compact disc once more, having been licensed to the Dal Segno label in the UK.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Opus106 on May 27, 2010, 08:26:01 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 27, 2010, 08:02:00 AM
I am very happy to report that Herbert Blomstedt's Bruckner Seventh, with the Staatskapelle Dresden, is now available on compact disc once more, having been licensed to the Dal Segno label in the UK.  :)

Yes. It was released sometime last year.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Herman on May 28, 2010, 04:15:29 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2010, 07:10:28 AM


This goes into the favorites pile along wth Celibidache, Klemperer, Stein, Dohnányi.



The real question is, however, whether Norrington will still be in that pile in a year's time, when your initial enthusiasm has worn off.

BTW if this is your favorite 6th pile (and it would never occur to me to call this symphony uniquely undramatic among Bruckner's symphonies) what happened to Blomstedt on his way to that pile?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 28, 2010, 04:56:04 AM
Quote from: Herman on May 28, 2010, 04:15:29 AM
The real question is, however, whether Norrington will still be in that pile in a year's time, when your initial enthusiasm has worn off.

Since it is unlike any other version I've heard, I doubt it will lose its appeal. I appreciate unique takes on familiar music; appreciate classical music's mavericks.

Quote
What happened to Blomstedt on his way to that pile?

Don't own any of his Bruckner recordings. I'd like to have his Querstand and Dal Segno CDs. Maybe those will be my next major purchase.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 28, 2010, 05:32:53 AM
Quote from: Herman on May 28, 2010, 04:15:29 AM
The real question is, however, whether Norrington will still be in that pile in a year's time, when your initial enthusiasm has worn off.

My initial enthusiasm has worn off, and I haven't even bought the recording yet.   ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on May 28, 2010, 08:43:52 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 28, 2010, 04:56:04 AM
Don't own any of his Bruckner recordings. I'd like to have his Querstand and Dal Segno CDs. Maybe those will be my next major purchase.

When you're making your Dal Segno order, throw in Blomstedt's Strauss too (Also Sprach Z, Tod und V, Don Juan). My copy had pauses between each movement of Zarathustra, but the folks at the record company assure me that that has been fixed.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on June 07, 2010, 10:42:24 AM
I saw earlier in the International Record Review - which also has an interesting article by Hänssler himself, on his role in the music world, etc. - that Profil is shortly issuing Thielemann's first recording in Dresden, and that it's the Bruckner 8th.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31hnH4G4gVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on June 07, 2010, 01:27:36 PM
Quote from: Renfield on June 07, 2010, 10:42:24 AM
I saw earlier in the International Record Review - which also has an interesting article by Hänssler himself, on his role in the music world, etc. - that Profil is shortly issuing Thielemann's first recording in Dresden, and that it's the Bruckner 8th.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31hnH4G4gVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I saw that (the recording, not the article), too; in fact, it's already available on jpc.de (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Edition-Staatskapelle-Dresden-Vol-31/hnum/7159186).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on June 07, 2010, 01:28:57 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on June 07, 2010, 01:27:36 PM
I saw that (the recording, not the article), too; in fact, it's already available on jpc.de (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Edition-Staatskapelle-Dresden-Vol-31/hnum/7159186).

Ah, I saw the Amazon.de listing, but it wasn't available yet. And JPC's asking price isn't bad. Hm.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: oabmarcus on June 19, 2010, 05:10:05 PM
Quote from: Renfield on June 07, 2010, 01:28:57 PM
Ah, I saw the Amazon.de listing, but it wasn't available yet. And JPC's asking price isn't bad. Hm.
I am going to listen to that once NML uploads it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on August 10, 2010, 10:57:07 PM
I was under the impression that Bruckner's "Majestoso" tempo marking from the 6th symphony was a spelling mistake on his part, and many recordings correct it to Maestoso, but I just noticed this on Wikipedia:

QuoteBruckner labels this movement "Majestoso", not the conventional "Maestoso", probably from his Latin (from "Maiestas" - sovereign power).
It's unsourced and probably BS, but do you think there is anything to it?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: BMW on August 10, 2010, 11:15:30 PM
Quote from: Lethe on August 10, 2010, 10:57:07 PM
I was under the impression that Bruckner's "Majestoso" tempo marking from the 6th symphony was a spelling mistake on his part, and many recordings correct it to Maestoso, but I just noticed this on Wikipedia:
It's unsourced and probably BS, but do you think there is anything to it?

Maybe...it may be harder to believe that such an obsessive compulsive would let a "mistake" like that past (if it was indeed his mistake).  Is it that way on the manuscript?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on August 11, 2010, 01:38:22 AM
Quote from: Lethe on August 10, 2010, 10:57:07 PM
I was under the impression that Bruckner's "Majestoso" tempo marking from the 6th symphony was a spelling mistake on his part, and many recordings correct it to Maestoso, but I just noticed this on Wikipedia:
It's unsourced and probably BS, but do you think there is anything to it?

"Majestaet" is how an Austrian would refer to the King & Queen. It would have been a word much more familiar, in sound, than "Maestoso". Even for a musician. Either it's a 'homophone spelling error' (where you accidentally write a word the way it sounds to you in your head), or he made a joke (or not a joke) by labeling it "Royally".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: The new erato on August 11, 2010, 01:43:07 AM
His Royal Highness in Norwegian = Hans Majestet
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on August 11, 2010, 04:29:28 AM
Thanks. I am now leaning towards retaining his spelling, but it would only take a few minutes to retag the files anyway, so I am mostly making a big deal about nothing ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karafan on August 20, 2010, 10:02:15 AM
Well I am new to this particular site but have very much enjoyed reading this informative Bruckner thread.

This week's Bruckner buys are Andreae's cycle on M&A (just arrived today so not yet listened to) and the Munich PO/Kempe 4&5 on Pilz.  I do adore Kempe as a rule but only have him in B8 with the Tonhalle to date, but man alive!  This 4 and 5 are real worldbeaters on a first listen - I have no idea why they are not better known.  The recording quality is also first rate with the MPO beautifully caught in top drawer mid '70s sound.

Interestingly, they were recorded in the Buergerbraukeller, Munich - site of the bomb attempt on Hitler's life.

Look forward to throwing my tuppenneth into some of the chat on here.  Will report back with my humble observations on the new CDs soon!

Karafan
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on August 20, 2010, 10:40:51 AM
Hi Karafan, and welcome.  If you like, feel free to post something about yourself in the "Introductions" section of the board.

And you'll find many Bruckner fans here, including me.   :D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2010, 02:07:18 PM
I just received a postcard from Austria, written by my sister-in-law stating that " The 'Pilgerfahrt' for Bruckner is going v. well". My brother has taken her on a pilgrimage to all the sites associated with Bruckner, including Linz, Ansfelden, St Florian etc. The postcard featured a picture of a room in the house where Bruckner was born (his father was a school-teacher). My brother apparently wrote in the visitor's book that being there was 'a dream come true'.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on September 17, 2010, 07:22:54 PM
Quote from: Franco on May 24, 2010, 09:30:36 AM
(http://blog.chosun.com/web_file/blog/365/365/6/Bruckner_Sym07_EFma_Jarvi06_RCA88697389972.jpg)

Anyone heard this?  He's also done the 9th, maybe others, and I think he is embarking on a complete cycle.  I enjoyed his Beethoven, but that style would not really be suitable for Bruckner, IMO - so it makes me wonder what he would bring to these works.

Jarvi's Bruckner recordings are, to put bluntly, drab. They are directionless and lifeless. I like full-blooded Bruckner, but with an emphasis on dynamics and structure, which I believe Wand, Chailly, Giulini, and Bohm deliever in spades. I do like some of Skrowaczewski's cycle (originally on Arte Nova, now on Oehms Classics) as well. Karajan, Jochum, Barenboim, Tintner, and Solti leave me cold. Haitink was great in his newly recorded 6th on the Profil label and I enjoyed his 7th recording with the CSO on their own label too. Haitink's earlier cycle on Philips is decent, but not one of my favorites.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on October 06, 2010, 06:11:01 AM
This could be very good. New release from Bavarian radio:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/900703.jpg)
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_November10/900703.htm
QuoteBRUCKNER
Symphony No. 8, c Minor

Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks / Rafael Kubelík

Live-Recordings, Munich, Herkulessaal, 12.5.1977.

Rafael Kubelík enriched the repertoire of the Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks primarily with works by Czech composers and 20th century music. However, during his period as chief conductor of the orchestra, he also fostered the traditional German romantic repertoire with which the ensemble had made a name for itself as far back as its founding years under Eugen Jochum. In May of 1977 Kubelík conducted Bruckner's Symphony No. 8 in C minor at a concert in Munich's Herkulessaal, the recording of which is now being released. In a review in Munich's Süddeutsche Zeitung, the orchestra was rated as equal in rank to such famous Bruckner orchestras as the Berlin and Vienna Philharmonic Orchestras.

A document of the Bruckner tradition that linked Rafael Kubelík with the Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks.

A  new remastering brings out the best possible sound quality from the master tape from 1977.

BR Klassik 900703
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 06, 2010, 06:34:39 AM
Quote from: Drasko on October 06, 2010, 06:11:01 AM
This could be very good. New release from Bavarian radio:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/900703.jpg)
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_November10/900703.htm

Looks interesting. I saw Kubelik conduct the Eighth in1973 at Severance Hall in Cleveland and really enjoyed that concert.

Sarge   
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on October 06, 2010, 12:00:59 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 06, 2010, 06:34:39 AM
Looks interesting. I saw Kubelik conduct the Eighth in1973 at Severance Hall in Cleveland and really enjoyed that concert.

The Bruckner discography lists a 1973 Cleveland recording by Kubelik (http://www.abruckner.com/recordings/3315/notes.htm) on a dodgy sounding label called Vibrato.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on October 06, 2010, 03:59:01 PM
Quote from: Drasko on October 06, 2010, 06:11:01 AM
This could be very good. New release from Bavarian radio:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/900703.jpg)
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_November10/900703.htm

Came out early last year in a box. Not bad so far as the first impression was suffient... but need to give it another proper listen--maybe in conex. with Bolton's and Thielemann's recent 8th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 06, 2010, 10:45:49 PM
Quote from: Daverz on October 06, 2010, 12:00:59 PM
The Bruckner discography lists a 1973 Cleveland recording by Kubelik (http://www.abruckner.com/recordings/3315/notes.htm) on a dodgy sounding label called Vibrato.

According to the notes it was the Thursday performance (19/4/73). I was at Severance on Saturday. Still, it would be fun to track down that recording. Thanks for pointing this out.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 08, 2010, 08:45:49 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 06, 2010, 10:45:49 PM
According to the notes it was the Thursday performance (19/4/73). I was at Severance on Saturday. Still, it would be fun to track down that recording. Thanks for pointing this out.

Sarge

That your memory is so precise shows that your memory is extremely good after 37 years, and that the performance was remarkable enough for it to remain vivid.

8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 08, 2010, 09:23:44 AM
Quote from: Cato on October 08, 2010, 08:45:49 AM
That your memory is so precise shows that your memory is extremely good after 37 years

I wish  ;D  In fact it's easy to remember the day I attended concerts during the 72/73 season. It was always a Saturday. I reenlisted in October (after taking a year off to go back to college) and was stationed at Fort Knox. My wife remained in our hometown (about 40 miles south of Cleveland) in order to complete her third year of teaching. I drove home every Friday evening (arriving around 11 p.m.) and returned to the fort Sunday afternoons. The only day I could attend a Cleveland concert was Saturday; we went on average once a month.

'72 and '73 were great years for a Mahler/Bruckner fanatic to be in striking distance of Cleveland. In those two years the Cleveland Orchestra played Bruckner and Mahler symphonies nine times!

Feb 72   Bruckner 7 Barenboim
Apr 72   Mahler 1 Louis Lane
May 72  Bruckner 3 Ceccato
Sep 72  Mahler 6 Abbado
Nov 72  Mahler 2 Ormandy
Jan 73   Bruckner 9 Barenboim
Mar 73  Mahler 9 Haitink
Apr 73  Bruckner 8 Kubelik
Dec 73  Bruckner 5 Maazel

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on October 31, 2010, 01:38:43 PM
Cross-posted from Super Bargains: Looking around, most of the praise for Gunter Wand's Bruckner focuses on his cycle with the NDR Orchestra, or his late recordings in Berlin. But the "super bargain" RCA box set (the whole cycle for 19 euros) features the WDR Orchestra, Cologne, not the NDR. Is there really a quality trade-off?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on October 31, 2010, 05:11:23 PM
Quote from: Drasko on October 06, 2010, 06:11:01 AM
This could be very good. New release from Bavarian radio:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/900703.jpg)
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_November10/900703.htm

Is this a different performance than the one that was issued on the Orfeo label?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on November 01, 2010, 02:03:57 AM
Quote from: Mensch on October 31, 2010, 05:11:23 PM
Is this a different performance than the one that was issued on the Orfeo label?

Yes, it is.


(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/0c/b8/c34f225b9da09210dc970110.L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
A. Bruckner
Symphony VIII
Rafael Kubelik / BRSO 1963
Orfeo (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000059B0?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0000059B0)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yW09r7ICL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
A. Bruckner
Symphony VIII
Rafael Kubelik / BRSO 1977
BR Klassik (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00442M0NA?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00442M0NA)



(A used copy of the '63 performance still cheaply available  from Germany here (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000028AZZ?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B000028AZZ).)

The Orfeo recording is from November 8th, 1963,

the BR Klassik recording is from May 12th, 1977.

So the performances are from 2 years after Kubelik became the MD
of the BRSO and 2 years before he left the BRSO. Almost bookends,
if you will.

Except for the finale, which has about the same duration, the latter
performance is (in accordance with cliche) slower.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 01, 2010, 04:07:22 AM
Kubelik was himself something of a composer of symphonies: does anyone know anything about them?

I wonder if they are descendants of the Bruckner or Mahler style, (or even the Bruckner-Mahler style   ;D  ) or follow the Czech school.

I recall that he was also "chased" from Chicago supposedly by hostile critics who liked neither his style nor his programming.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on November 01, 2010, 04:17:57 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 01, 2010, 04:07:22 AM
Kubelik was himself something of a composer of symphonies: does anyone know anything about them?

I had no idea.  Wikipedia is little more than a tease on this matter:

QuoteAmong his compositions are five operas, a number of symphonies, three settings of the Requiem text, other choral works, and many works of chamber music.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on November 01, 2010, 04:26:30 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 01, 2010, 04:07:22 AM
Kubelik was himself something of a composer of symphonies: does anyone know anything about them?

I wonder if they are descendants of the Bruckner or Mahler style, (or even the Bruckner-Mahler style   ;D  ) or follow the Czech school.

I recall that he was also "chased" from Chicago supposedly by hostile critics who liked neither his style nor his programming.

Claudia Cassidy was her name (it lives in infamy among music critics)--and she mostly hated that he played so much contemporary music.

There is a DVD of Kubelik's life that is rather nice (I usually don't like those kind of DVDs much) -- and it includes some of his music.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410eJKDCO-L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Rafael Kubelik
A Portrait (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000OONQ2G?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000OONQ2G)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 01, 2010, 09:13:11 AM
Many thanks to JLaurson for the information on the Kubelik DVD!

That it contains some of his own music makes it now especially interesting!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on November 02, 2010, 06:32:02 PM
Quote from: Cato on November 01, 2010, 09:13:11 AM
Many thanks to JLaurson for the information on the Kubelik DVD!

That it contains some of his own music makes it now especially interesting!

More importantly for this thread, it includes a very fine Bruckner 4 with the VPO.

This set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gMf8QPTjL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

besides containing an almost complete Beethoven cycle, some Hartmann, Gurrelieder and some other Kubelik rarities, also has a performance of Kubelik's quattro forme per archi.

The CSO used to have a "From the Archives" double CD dedicated to Kubelik, which also included a 1980 performance of his Sequences for orchestra. But it no longer seems to be available.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on November 02, 2010, 06:34:35 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 01, 2010, 04:26:30 AM
Claudia Cassidy was her name (it lives in infamy among music critics)--and she mostly hated that he played so much contemporary music.

She hated Mahler, too. Kubelik conducted some CSO permieres(!) of Mahler symphonies.

Quote from: jlaurson on November 01, 2010, 02:03:57 AM
Yes, it is.

Thanks for that clarification. I may have to seek that out. Kubelik's BRSO Bruckner 4 on Sony from late in his tenure is my absolute favorite Bruckner 4.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on November 27, 2010, 03:58:01 PM
This all-day Bruckner marathon has been incredibly rewarding.  AB is making all the right moves, like this guy!  :D


(http://alias525.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/all-the-right-moves.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on November 27, 2010, 04:01:58 PM
I think I'll bug everyone again since that Karajan 7 recording was so awesome!

What is your favorite recording of the Bruckner 6 in modern sound?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on November 27, 2010, 04:35:09 PM
Quote from: DavidW on November 27, 2010, 04:01:58 PM

What is your favorite recording of the Bruckner 6 in modern sound?

I'd love to hear suggestions as well, since that really is the only remaining Bruckner symphony that I'm not overly enthusiastic about.  ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on November 27, 2010, 05:56:19 PM
Just finishing listening to the 9th, and don't know why I hadn't noticed it before........Bruckner seems to quote from Wagner's Parsifal in the coda of Adagio.  Am I right?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on November 27, 2010, 06:03:23 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 27, 2010, 04:35:09 PM
I'd love to hear suggestions as well, since that really is the only remaining Bruckner symphony that I'm not overly enthusiastic about.  ::)

I hope you're not ranking #00 and 0 above #6. :-[
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on November 27, 2010, 06:07:30 PM
Quote from: DavidW on November 27, 2010, 04:01:58 PM
I think I'll bug everyone again since that Karajan 7 recording was so awesome!

What is your favorite recording of the Bruckner 6 in modern sound?

Hmm... when done well, it's my secret favorite. If you can't find (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000IG32?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00000IG32) Celibidache (EMI, one of my all-time favorite Bruckner recordings), try Haitink/Dresden (PROFIL):


Bruckner, Symphony No. 6, Bernard Haitink
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=121 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=121)

Also really, surprisingly good is Norrington's Sixth. Janowski  I have before me but hasn't yet struck me as all that special.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on November 27, 2010, 06:08:00 PM
Quote from: DavidW on November 27, 2010, 06:03:23 PM
I hope you're not ranking #00 and 0 above #6. :-[

Nope, I wasn't holding # 6 in consideration with 00 and 0.  In fact, I don't even have recordings of those two, and have only heard both of them once.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on November 27, 2010, 07:16:35 PM
Quote from: DavidW on November 27, 2010, 04:01:58 PM
I think I'll bug everyone again since that Karajan 7 recording was so awesome!

What is your favorite recording of the Bruckner 6 in modern sound?

Aside from the 8th, I would probably place the 6th as my favorite among Bruckner's symphonies.  The slow movement, in particular, is luminous.  I don't think I've ever heard a recording of the 6th that I failed to find something interesting in.  Chailly's recording with the Concertgebouw is certainly a fine one, with very good sound.  My favorite is probably the Karajan/Berlin, but the Sawallisch recording on Orfeo is also very fine.    I find myself curious about the Janowski recording on Pentatone.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on November 27, 2010, 08:15:16 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 27, 2010, 04:35:09 PM
I'd love to hear suggestions as well, since that really is the only remaining Bruckner symphony that I'm not overly enthusiastic about.  ::)

A suggestion of what not to get--Colin Davis on LSO Live, which manages to make this symphony sound in several passages like the rejected score for Lawrence of Arabia.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on November 29, 2010, 06:18:59 PM
The only one I can find to preview on nml out of the ones listed is Norrington, if that blows me away I'll buy it, else I'll blind buy either Celibidache, Haitink, or Sawallisch.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on December 06, 2010, 05:50:45 AM

"Magnificent" Isn't Quite the Right Word: Nagano in Bruckner

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/magnificent-isnt-quite-right-word.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/magnificent-isnt-quite-right-word.html)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/TPzx9HY7peI/AAAAAAAABWk/CSsmjRGXPHc/s400/Nagano_c_Wilfried-Hoesl.png)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on December 06, 2010, 02:25:58 PM
Quote from: DavidW on November 29, 2010, 06:18:59 PM
The only one I can find to preview on nml out of the ones listed is Norrington, if that blows me away I'll buy it, else I'll blind buy either Celibidache, Haitink, or Sawallisch.

Haitink should be on there; that label usually is.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on December 08, 2010, 05:22:13 PM
I second that Haitink 6th on Profil, the orchestra sounds phenomonal.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on December 09, 2010, 08:28:47 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 06, 2010, 02:25:58 PM
Haitink should be on there; that label usually is.

No his 6th wasn't, and just because a label is present doesn't mean that all of their recordings are. ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on December 09, 2010, 08:31:01 AM
Quote from: Lethe on December 08, 2010, 05:22:13 PM
I second that Haitink 6th on Profil, the orchestra sounds phenomonal.

Yes, finely nuanced, sumptuous soud, and subtle interplay of moods, it really captures the heart of the piece more than the other recordings I've heard by not falling into the trap of playing it like it was just all of the other symphonies.  Bravo!

And that was a fantastic rec Jens. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on December 09, 2010, 08:31:41 AM
And now I ask for best/favorite Bruckner 5th in modern sound. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on December 09, 2010, 08:47:52 AM
Quote from: DavidW on December 09, 2010, 08:31:41 AM
And now I ask for best/favorite Bruckner 5th in modern sound. :)

Some that I love (and I haven't heard many recent ones), in no particular order.  Just saw the Cleveland DVD a few weeks ago and it's marvelous, if you are inclined to watch as well as listen.

Sinopoli/Dresden
Welser-Möst/Cleveland (DVD)
Chailly/Concertgebouw
Dohnányi/Cleveland

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on December 09, 2010, 09:27:49 AM
Quote from: DavidW on December 09, 2010, 08:31:41 AM
And now I ask for best/favorite Bruckner 5th in modern sound. :)

Celibidache on Altus (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000VQR4ZW?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B000VQR4ZW) . Or EMI (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00000IG31?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B00000IG31). Not cheap in either case, but the Altus (as good as the EMI, some [not me] argue it's even better) is available and not completely unreasonably priced for 2 CDs. (Link is to the UK, US here.)

alternatively Thielemann. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/slow-food-for-ears-bruckners-5th-with.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/slow-food-for-ears-bruckners-5th-with.html)

(for the slow-burn experience).

Otherwise I second the Sinopoli (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000058BH0?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B000058BH0).

The recent Haitink (BR Klassik (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00442M0MQ?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B00442M0MQ)) [Review of the concert at which it was recorded here (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/02/ionarts-at-large-haitink-in-bruckner.html) is very fine, but perhaps just a touch uneventful.

Sarge might mention Barenboim's Berlin Phil 5th. But it is not my favorite, to put it mildly... but sometimes I'm wrong, of course.  ;) [used copies can be cheaply had (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000000SEP?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B000000SEP).] Incidentally, Barenboim will record a whole new cycle of Bruckner (and Beethoven) for Deutsche Grammophon with the Berlin Staatskapelle.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on December 09, 2010, 10:22:12 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 09, 2010, 09:27:49 AMIncidentally, Barenboim will record a whole new cycle of Bruckner (and Beethoven) for Deutsche Grammophon with the Berlin Staatskapelle.

My lord.  Is Barenboim such a Bruckner luminary that we need three Bruckner cycles from him?   :o ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on December 09, 2010, 10:24:30 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 09, 2010, 10:22:12 AM
My lord.  Is Barenboim such a Bruckner luminary that we need three Bruckner cycles from him?   :o ::)

No. But it seems fair that now as he's finally understood Bruckner, he gets to record it again.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on December 09, 2010, 10:28:12 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 09, 2010, 10:24:30 AM
No. But it seems fair that now as he's finally understood Bruckner, he gets to record it again.

His current work is substantially different from the n-1 cycle from the Berliner Philharmoniker?  I can't help think we'd be better served with a cycle from someone who hasn't had their turn yet.   ???
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 09, 2010, 10:57:46 AM
Quote from: bhodges on December 09, 2010, 08:47:52 AM
Some that I love (and I haven't heard many recent ones), in no particular order.  Just saw the Cleveland DVD a few weeks ago and it's marvelous, if you are inclined to watch as well as listen.

Sinopoli/Dresden
Welser-Möst/Cleveland (DVD)
Chailly/Concertgebouw
Dohnányi/Cleveland

--Bruce

In the 1990's I had the opportunity to hear Dohnanyi with The Cleveland Orchestra in this work, and there was an instant standing ovation at the end, so great was the crackling emotional electricity in the hall from the grand finale!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on December 09, 2010, 11:00:35 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 09, 2010, 10:28:12 AM
His current work is substantially different from the n-1 cycle from the Berliner Philharmoniker?  I can't help think we'd be better served with a cycle from someone who hasn't had their turn yet.   ???

The n-1 (No.1?) cycle was the Chicago one (DG), no? The second one then on Teldec. In any case, I was being somewhat facetious. And I assume it's not an either-or choice. Though Dresden/Thielemann on DG (which is not going to happen) surely seems more tantalizing, don't it?!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on December 09, 2010, 11:02:52 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 09, 2010, 10:57:46 AM
In the 1990's I had the opportunity to hear Dohnanyi with The Cleveland Orchestra in this work, and there was an instant standing ovation at the end, so great was the crackling emotional electricity in the hall from the grand finale!

Ah... 0:)  Those were some great, great years with the orchestra.  Nothing like the Cleveland brass, playing their guts out at the end!

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on December 09, 2010, 11:11:19 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 09, 2010, 11:00:35 AM
The n-1 (No.1?) cycle was the Chicago one (DG), no? The second one then on Teldec. In any case, I was being somewhat facetious. And I assume it's not an either-or choice. Though Dresden/Thielemann on DG (which is not going to happen) surely seems more tantalizing, don't it?!

n-1 would be Berlin, which I have and like although I wouldn't rate it as the very best.   (I don't have the Chicago cycle, and am not sure it was ever issued on CD in its entirety.)  Bottom line, I'm skeptical that the new DG would be much different than the previous Teldec/BP, except with inferior audio engineering. 

I can't say who I would want to hear in Bruckner, but someone who is making a first crack at it would be preferable.   I would have said Maazel, but his cycle is just coming out.  Maybe Blomstedt.  I liked the Bruckner recordings he made in San Francisco.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on December 09, 2010, 11:34:08 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 09, 2010, 11:11:19 AM
n-1 would be Berlin, which I have and like although I wouldn't rate it as the very best.   (I don't have the Chicago cycle, and am not sure it was ever issued on CD in its entirety.)  Bottom line, I'm skeptical that the new DG would be much different than the previous Teldec/BP, except with inferior audio engineering. 

I can't say who I would want to hear in Bruckner, but someone who is making a first crack at it would be preferable.   I would have said Maazel, but his cycle is just coming out.  Maybe Blomstedt.  I liked the Bruckner recordings he made in San Francisco.

Blomstedt in Bruckner I can see... very unfussy stuff. Builds up intensity much like a Bach work.
Maazel, well, I'm listening to it... but I'm not blown away. BRSO recordings from the 80s, much lauded performances then... and surely better than anything he'd do now.
Barenboim did the Berlin Bruckner in the 90s. The Chicago recordings were made in the 70s. So I'm confused what you mean by "n-1".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on December 09, 2010, 11:36:57 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 09, 2010, 11:34:08 AM
Blomstedt in Bruckner I can see... very unfussy stuff. Builds up intensity much like a Bach work.
Maazel, well, I'm listening to it... but I'm not blown away. BRSO recordings from the 80s, much lauded performances then... and surely better than anything he'd do now.
Barenboim did the Berlin Bruckner in the 90s. The Chicago recordings were made in the 70s. So I'm confused what you mean by "n-1".

Sorry, I'm being pseudo-mathematical.   "n" would signify the most recent, and n-1 would signify the one before the most recent. 

At this point, I've heard enough Bruckner that I'm rather skeptical that I'm going to hear something really "new" in the latest recording, or at least that I will hear anything new that is new in a good way. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2010, 12:38:46 PM
Quote from: DavidW on December 09, 2010, 08:31:41 AM
And now I ask for best/favorite Bruckner 5th in modern sound. :)

Quote from: jlaurson on December 09, 2010, 09:27:49 AM
Sarge might mention Barenboim's Berlin Phil 5th.

I really enjoy Barenboim's Berlin Fifth, primarily because it reminds me of Furtwängler's approach to Bruckner. But it's not one of my favorites. Those would be:

Dohnányi/Cleveland (not your father's Bruckner: swift, fiery, intensely dramatic)

Celibidache/Munich Phil (I have the live in Toyko Altus CD)

Jochum/Concertgebouw (another live recording, on the Tahra label: a legendary performance in which Jochum revives a Schalk practise of introducing additional brass--4 horns, 3 trumpets, 3 trombones and tuba--at key points in the last movement)

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on December 09, 2010, 05:00:21 PM
I'd be interested in folks' opinion on these two, which are the only recordings of the Bruckner 5 I have.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4101KRK0FJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VtXALFVFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on December 09, 2010, 05:51:20 PM
Well it sounds like Dohnanyi/Cleveland is a must listen!  But it also sounds like there is alot of stiff competition for this symphony. 

I've ordered Dohnanyi and will hopefully receive it before I leave for the holidays. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on December 10, 2010, 02:36:43 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on December 09, 2010, 05:00:21 PM
I'd be interested in folks' opinion on these two, which are the only recordings of the Bruckner 5 I have.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4101KRK0FJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VtXALFVFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The Welser-Moest ist pretty good, actually. The Zander is good for someone who has 'just discovered' that Symphony. I was pleased with it, but hardly blown away.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on December 10, 2010, 05:30:44 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on December 09, 2010, 05:00:21 PM
I'd be interested in folks' opinion on these two, which are the only recordings of the Bruckner 5 I have.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VtXALFVFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Zander's performance is OK, but this set is particularly worth it for the enlightening talk on the 2nd disc (Hurwitz doesn't like it because it's competition for his own music "education" products.)  My first choice for the 5th is Karajan (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00000E33Y/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1291991075&sr=1-1&condition=used), and for a swift 5, Rögner (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphonie-No-5-Anton/dp/B000026NCR) on Berlin Classics (which has about the same overall time as Zander)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on December 10, 2010, 05:42:35 AM
Quote from: Daverz on December 10, 2010, 05:30:44 AM
Zander's performance is OK, but this set is particularly worth it for the enlightening talk on the 2nd disc (Hurwitz doesn't like it because it's competition for his own music "education" products.) 

That could well be the reason for Hurwitz's ridiculous hatred of the speech, but I would also shy away from calling it 'enlightening'. It's one of his more daft spoken essays... though nicely touchy-feely. A bit too excited, as if he had solely dug up Bruckner's 5th out of complete obscurity. [Even if you end up liking it, don't compare it to the actually truly excellent talk on the Mahler 6th.]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2010, 06:07:18 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on December 09, 2010, 05:00:21 PM
I'd be interested in folks' opinion on these two, which are the only recordings of the Bruckner 5 I have.

Zander I haven't heard; W-M I really like. Interpretatively at the opposite end from "monumental/epic" (exemplified by Celi, Marthé, Thielemann, Jochum in Amsterdam in 1986), he gives us Bruckner in dramatic guise rather like Dohnányi. It's an interpretive choice I've come to appreciate.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on December 15, 2010, 06:47:04 PM
For those of you who like Barenboim's Bruckner, like I do, there is a wonderful recent 9th broadcast with the CSO to be heard on the CSO website. This performance is from the last few "farewell" concerts at the end of Barenboim's tenure with the CSO in June 2006, which featured the 9ths of Bruckner, Mahler and Beethoven.

http://cso.org/ListenAndWatch/Details.aspx?id=14114

Available streaming thru 1/25/11.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on December 15, 2010, 07:01:40 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 10, 2010, 05:42:35 AM
That could well be the reason for Hurwitz's ridiculous hatred of the speech, but I would also shy away from calling it 'enlightening'. It's one of his more daft spoken essays... though nicely touchy-feely. A bit too excited, as if he had solely dug up Bruckner's 5th out of complete obscurity. [Even if you end up liking it, don't compare it to the actually truly excellent talk on the Mahler 6th.]

Your description is amusing.  Maybe I was caught up in the enthusiasm of it.  And, yes, the Mahler 6 talk really is excellent.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 10, 2011, 11:42:54 AM
Quote from: Drasko on October 06, 2010, 06:11:01 AM
This could be very good. New release from Bavarian radio:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/900703.jpg)
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_November10/900703.htm

I just finished listening to this for the first time. This is a terriffic performance. Better than the earlier one on Orfeo. Basically what you'd expect from Kubelik: grand but never dragging, incredibly well balanced without loss of warmth, very well thought out tempo relationships. I thought I knew this symphony well, but I was hearing lots of new details in this performance.  Goes to the top of the heap for me, alongside Schuricht and Boulez.

Quote from: Scarpia on December 09, 2010, 11:36:57 AM
Sorry, I'm being pseudo-mathematical.   "n" would signify the most recent, and n-1 would signify the one before the most recent. 

At this point, I've heard enough Bruckner that I'm rather skeptical that I'm going to hear something really "new" in the latest recording, or at least that I will hear anything new that is new in a good way. 

Missed this discussion earlier... just my two cents here: my Bruckner experiences with Barenboim (several performances each of Nos. 4, 5, 7 & 9 with CSO in various halls - Chicago, Carnegie, Philharmonie Berlin - over the years) have been among the most unforgettable Bruckner listening experiences of my life. I was always a tad disappointed with his two recorded cycles, which, although overall quite good, don't capture what Barenboim is capable of at his best (that said, the CSO 9th and the BPO 2nd are among my favorite recordings of those symphonies). For that reason alone, I won't mind at all if we get a new cycle from him that gets closer to his top form that I have heard in the concert hall. So far, all his recordings with the Staatskapelle have been winners, so there is hope that this one will be better than the earlier two, just like his SKBerlin Schumann is leagues above his earlier CSO version.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on January 14, 2011, 06:13:28 AM
Quote from: CS on April 17, 2007, 08:54:32 AM
I also recommend the Metzmacher (and, also, haven't heard the Wergo). But for the best symphony no. 6, with an electrifying performance and great sonics, you must get the Leitner:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/46/467412.JPG)
...  -CS

I found this little reference whilst looking up Hartmann.  I just wanted to say that this certainly is a reference.  Since I came to Bruckner in 1993 (or he came to me, rather) I've probably heard or posessed more Bruckner 6th Symphonies than you can shake a conductors stick at.
Last year in my living room I picked up the conductors stick myself when I heard this Leitner version of Bruckners 6th.  It was recorded in 1976, but the positioning, the sonics and probably the sheer brilliance of the conductor make this BY FAR one of the most memorable 6ths I, personally, have ever experienced.  It made me look up Leitner for more of his conducting capers, but I couldn't find any more Bruckner recodings by him. 
:'(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on January 14, 2011, 06:24:06 AM
Quote from: John on January 14, 2011, 06:13:28 AM
  It made me look up Leitner for more of his conducting capers, but I couldn't find any more Bruckner recodings by him. 
:'(

Surely there's a Leitner 9th on Haenssler [LINK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00007BHHP?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B00007BHHP)] and a "0" on Orfeo [LINK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000028B1I?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B000028B1I)]. Fairly inexpensive, too, in the UK.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on January 14, 2011, 06:33:13 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 14, 2011, 06:24:06 AM
Surely there's a Leitner 9th on Haenssler [LINK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00007BHHP?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B00007BHHP)] and a "0" on Orfeo [LINK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000028B1I?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B000028B1I)]. Fairly inexpensive, too, in the UK.

Thanks!   :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 18, 2011, 03:03:16 PM
BTW, a new reissue of Wand's Cologne cycle is available for less than $4 per disc at amazon:

[asin]B0042U2HLY[/asin]

So silly cheap to make it tempting. What do people here think of this cycle? I'm rather fond of his BPO recordings and his DVDs with the NDR. I'm a little apprehensive about the quality of the playing of the Cologne band. Need I be?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on January 18, 2011, 03:09:03 PM
Quote from: Mensch on January 18, 2011, 03:03:16 PM
BTW, a new reissue of Wand's Cologne cycle is available for less than $4 per disc at amazon:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0042U2HLY.01.L.jpg)
A.Bruckner
G.Wand (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0042U2HLY?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B0042U2HLY)

So silly cheap to make it tempting. What do people here think of this cycle? I'm rather fond of his BPO recordings and his DVDs with the NDR. I'm a little apprehensive about the quality of the playing of the Cologne band. Need I be?

No. You need not be. Not in the least. I think this is better (and better played) than the NDR Bruckner. Just not better recorded. It may not touch the Berlin recordings, but it's stupendous no-nonsense, straight-shooting Bruckner. No incense. This cycle made his name at the outset of the 'second summer' of his career.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rubio on January 19, 2011, 06:49:31 AM
It seems like part of the Bruckner cycle by Kegel is available from HMV again. I've ordered the 6th as I've read it should be among the best (with some real fantastic cover art as a nice bonus...). Are there other items from this cycle that are recommendable?

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/3979541

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/39/7/9/541.jpg)
Title: Re: Now It's Bruckner's Arby's, Not Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 19, 2011, 11:48:44 AM
For the non-Americans here, in the U.S. there exists a fast-food chain called "Arby's" which specializes in Roast Beef sandwiches (R-B = "Arby's").

They now have an ad on television for some special offer with a nautical theme (?).

The background music for the ad is...the opening....of Bruckner's Seventh Symphony!!!

Sacrilege or Desecration?   0:)

Or smart marketing?   8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 19, 2011, 11:58:19 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 18, 2011, 03:09:03 PM
No. You need not be. Not in the least. I think this is better (and better played) than the NDR Bruckner. Just not better recorded. It may not touch the Berlin recordings, but it's stupendous no-nonsense, straight-shooting Bruckner. No incense. This cycle made his name at the outset of the 'second summer' of his career.

Ordered it!
Title: Re: Now It's Bruckner's Arby's, Not Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on January 19, 2011, 03:55:16 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 19, 2011, 11:48:44 AM
They now have an ad on television for some special offer with a nautical theme (?).

The background music for the ad is...the opening....of Bruckner's Seventh Symphony!!!

Sacrilege or Desecration?   0:)

Best FF-Chain. Deserves Bruckner. But ironic, because Bruckner, as we all know, delivers a whopper of a symphony.
Title: Re: Now It's Bruckner's Arby's, Not Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 19, 2011, 04:26:08 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 19, 2011, 03:55:16 PM
Best FF-Chain. Deserves Bruckner. But ironic, because Bruckner, as we all know, delivers a whopper of a symphony.

They were the best. Before you were born Arby's actually roasted real unprocessed beef and served it rare or medium rare on good buns. I recall how great those sandwichs were in the 60s. One of the first Arby's, possibly the first outside Youngstown OH, was in Akron, just a few miles from my home.

Sarge
Title: Re: Now It's Bruckner's Arby's, Not Abbey
Post by: Brian on January 20, 2011, 03:51:29 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 19, 2011, 11:48:44 AM
For the non-Americans here, in the U.S. there exists a fast-food chain called "Arby's" which specializes in Roast Beef sandwiches (R-B = "Arby's").

They now have an ad on television for some special offer with a nautical theme (?).

The background music for the ad is...the opening....of Bruckner's Seventh Symphony!!!

Sacrilege or Desecration?   0:)

Put it this way: when I get back to the United States, I will go to an Arby's and buy a meal solely to support their decision to broadcast Bruckner!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on January 20, 2011, 05:48:07 AM
Oh yea, I would like to Honour Bruckners favourite student, Hans Rott, by making an advert featuring EXTRAWURST, for all those impoverished in Germany and Austria - the sountrack to which will of course be the completely inappropriate opening of Bruckner 8, 4rth movement.
Tarum tarum tarum tarum tarum da - da da -da da da....etc.  Lets hear it for...products!
Pah! :P
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 20, 2011, 12:00:52 PM
Yo, Jens

Are you by chance familiar with this set?

[asin]B00475E136[/asin]

I realize it's not out in the US yet, but maybe you heard the performances in Munich from which this is taken? Maazel's Bruckner 8 with BPO on EMI is praised to the heavens, but I have not heard anything from this conductor yet that I wouldn't describe as technically as perfect as possible, but somehow not really moving at all. Wondering what he's like in Bruckner...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on January 20, 2011, 07:06:12 PM
Quote from: Mensch on January 20, 2011, 12:00:52 PM
Maazel's Bruckner 8 with BPO on EMI is praised to the heavens, but I have not heard anything from this conductor yet that I wouldn't describe as technically as perfect as possible, but somehow not really moving at all. Wondering what he's like in Bruckner...

I played that recording last night, in one of my periodic attempts to interface better with Bruckner, and once again found it to be exactly what you describe:  technically perfect and emotionally frigid--which I know it need not be, since I have Boulez's recording with the VPO.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on January 20, 2011, 07:59:18 PM
Quote from: Mensch on January 20, 2011, 12:00:52 PM
Yo, Jens

Are you by chance familiar with this set?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FnuGttc6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00475E136/goodmusicguide-20)

I realize it's not out in the US yet, but maybe you heard the performances in Munich from which this is taken? Maazel's Bruckner 8 with BPO on EMI is praised to the heavens, but I have not heard anything from this conductor yet that I wouldn't describe as technically as perfect as possible, but somehow not really moving at all. Wondering what he's like in Bruckner...

I've not head the performances live; but I do have the set. It was slightly before Maazel's descent into super-boredom... and praised locally... but then that's no guide by which to determine the quality of the recordings. Sarge has listened to them more than I do, I believe... if and when I have a firmer opinion, I might pipe up again.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 21, 2011, 05:38:51 AM
Quote from: Mensch on January 20, 2011, 12:00:52 PM
Yo, Jens
Are you by chance familiar with this set?

Quote from: jlaurson on January 20, 2011, 07:59:18 PM
Sarge has listened to them more than I do, I believe...

I've been listening in numerical order and have heard the first five, 0 through 4. I like what I've heard so far, and it's what I expected from hearing Maazel's Bruckner live (a Fifth with Cleveland, a Third with Vienna). In general he employs swifter than normal slow movements, and slower than normal outer movements, sometimes approaching Celi territory: an eighteen minute Die Nullte first movement; a First with an 18 minute Finale; a 31 minute Ninth first movement; a Second with a Finale three minutes slower than Barenboim's already slow pace!). He holds the orchestra in a very tight grip, making them, to use a circus analogy, jump through hoops like a lion tamer (i.e., the occasional eccentric phrasing or odd rhythmic distortion). He tends to elongate each symphony's final notes. The recording quality is very good: detailed, lovely lower brass and very prominent tympani. Audience isn't intrusive but applause is included.

If the "great" Bruckner symphonies are as good as the first five (I was only disappointed with the First--but that's my least favorite anyway), this could become my favorite cycle alongside Celi and Barenboim. You wrote:

QuoteI have not heard anything from this conductor yet that I wouldn't describe as technically as perfect as possible, but somehow not really moving at all. Wondering what he's like in Bruckner...

That was my problem with the Cleveland performances I heard at Severance and Blossom in the 70s. It was as though he refused to "let go" completely; that he played down the emotional element. But whether he's changed or I have, I am moved by his Bruckner now. I can't guarantee you will be. (See kishnevi's comment about the Eighth. I love the Berlin Eighth and expect to enjoy the SOBR performance.)

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on January 21, 2011, 06:05:28 AM
Quote from: Mensch on January 20, 2011, 12:00:52 PM
Yo, Jens

Are you by chance familiar with this set?

[asin]B00475E136[/asin]

I realize it's not out in the US yet, but maybe you heard the performances in Munich from which this is taken? Maazel's Bruckner 8 with BPO on EMI is praised to the heavens, but I have not heard anything from this conductor yet that I wouldn't describe as technically as perfect as possible, but somehow not really moving at all. Wondering what he's like in Bruckner...

I'm quite interested in this set (based on the very good recording of the 8th on EMI), but my problem is to justify another Bruckner cycle given that I already have quite a few that I am very happy with.  But I do not understand this comment about Maazel.  I have a number of recording he has made which I consider absolutely among the very best available, including his Sibelius cycle with the Pittsburgh Symphony.  There are other recordings of his that I found unconvincing, mainly the Mahler cycle with the VPO.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 21, 2011, 06:44:37 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 21, 2011, 05:38:51 AM
I've been listening in numerical order and have heard the first five, 0 through 4. I like what I've heard so far, and it's what I expected from hearing Maazel's Bruckner live (a Fifth with Cleveland, a Third with Vienna). In general he employs swifter than normal slow movements, and slower than normal outer movements, sometimes approaching Celi territory: an eighteen minute Die Nullte first movement; a First with an 18 minute Finale; a 31 minute Ninth first movement; a Second with a Finale three minutes slower than Barenboim's already slow pace!). He holds the orchestra in a very tight grip, making them, to use a circus analogy, jump through hoops like a lion tamer (i.e., the occasional eccentric phrasing or odd rhythmic distortion). He tends to elongate each symphony's final notes. The recording quality is very good: detailed, lovely lower brass and very prominent tympani. Audience isn't intrusive but applause is included.

If the "great" Bruckner symphonies are as good as the first five (I was only disappointed with the First--but that's my least favorite anyway), this could become my favorite cycle alongside Celi and Barenboim. You wrote:

That was my problem with the Cleveland performances I heard at Severance and Blossom in the 70s. It was as though he refused to "let go" completely; that he played down the emotional element. But whether he's changed or I have, I am moved by his Bruckner now. I can't guarantee you will be. (See kishnevi's comment about the Eighth. I love the Berlin Eighth and expect to enjoy the SOBR performance.)

Sarge

Sarge, thanks for your detailed comments. Sounds interesting enough, though I wonder whether after slowing down the outer movements and speeding up the adagios there is sufficient distinction left in the tempo relationships. I guess it's mostly the orchestra that makes this interesting to me. I do love what Kubelik did with the BRSO in Bruckner.

Quote from: Scarpia on January 21, 2011, 06:05:28 AM
I'm quite interested in this set (based on the very good recording of the 8th on EMI), but my problem is to justify another Bruckner cycle given that I already have quite a few that I am very happy with.  But I do not understand this comment about Maazel.  I have a number of recording he has made which I consider absolutely among the very best available, including his Sibelius cycle with the Pittsburgh Symphony.  There are other recordings of his that I found unconvincing, mainly the Mahler cycle with the VPO.

Scarpia, you make two excellent points. I too have a number of Bruckner cycles I'm happy with and can't necessarily justify another purchase (considering also the postman should be bringing Wand's Cologne cycle today!). And you are right I was unfair to Maazel. I completely forgot his scorcher of a Sibelius, though the one I have is with Vienna. I did hear Maazel conduct Mahler live with Vienna at Carnegie, and it is that, as well as parts of his recorded cycle on Sony, that left me rather cold. The Mahler 5 he did at Carnegie was possibly the most technically perfect demonstration of the piece I have ever heard, but completely devoid of the roller-coaster, edge-of-seat intensity that the best can generate. The Meistersinger overture they delivered as an encore was better.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 21, 2011, 06:59:22 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 21, 2011, 06:05:28 AM
But I do not understand this comment about Maazel.  I have a number of recording he has made which I consider absolutely among the very best available, including his Sibelius cycle with the Pittsburgh Symphony.

I should have said, "that was my problem with some Cleveland performances" because, yes, his Sibelius is superb. In fact it was his Severance Fifth, part of his first Cleveland concert as the new music director, that made me a Sibelius fan. In any case I've become something of a Maazel fan in my, and his, old age. If I could go back in time, to the seventies, I wonder if I'd change my mind about some of the performances I dismissed then.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on January 21, 2011, 08:31:27 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 21, 2011, 06:59:22 AM
I should have said, "that was my problem with some Cleveland performances" because, yes, his Sibelius is superb. In fact it was his Severance Fifth, part of his first Cleveland concert as the new music director, that made me a Sibelius fan. In any case I've become something of a Maazel fan in my, and his, old age. If I could go back in time, to the seventies, I wonder if I'd change my mind about some of the performances I dismissed then.

Are you enjoying his 70's Brahms cycle?

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on January 21, 2011, 07:06:28 PM
Quote from: Mensch on January 21, 2011, 06:44:37 AM
I did hear Maazel conduct Mahler live with Vienna at Carnegie, and it is that, as well as parts of his recorded cycle on Sony, that left me rather cold. The Mahler 5 he did at Carnegie was possibly the most technically perfect demonstration of the piece I have ever heard, but completely devoid of the roller-coaster, edge-of-seat intensity that the best can generate. The Meistersinger overture they delivered as an encore was better.

Now here I have to differ from you.   I have the his recording of the M5/VPO and don't think anything is wrong with it.  It certainly had enough intensity.  It's not my favorite performance of the work, but that's because there are more than a few hi quality alternatives; his is very good, theirs is excellent.

Thread duty: listened tonight to the Boulez VPO recording of the B8.  Has everything the Maazel didn't have, but still not enough to make me fall in love with Anton.   
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on January 22, 2011, 04:33:35 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on January 21, 2011, 07:06:28 PM
Now here I have to differ from you.   I have the his recording of the M5/VPO and don't think anything is wrong with it.  It certainly had enough intensity.  It's not my favorite performance of the work, but that's because there are more than a few hi quality alternatives; his is very good, theirs is excellent.

Thread duty: listened tonight to the Boulez VPO recording of the B8.  Has everything the Maazel didn't have, but still not enough to make me fall in love with Anton.

If you don't like Bruckner, how can you judge whether Maazel is a good Bruckner performer?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 22, 2011, 04:45:18 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 21, 2011, 08:31:27 AM
Are you enjoying his 70's Brahms cycle?

I've only heard the Second so far but like it better than either Szell's or Dohnányi's Cleveland performances.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 22, 2011, 04:50:58 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on January 21, 2011, 07:06:28 PM
Now here I have to differ from you.   I have the his recording of the M5/VPO and don't think anything is wrong with it.  It certainly had enough intensity.  It's not my favorite performance of the work, but that's because there are more than a few hi quality alternatives; his is very good, theirs is excellent.

My major problem with Maazel's M5 is that he plays the chorale in the second movement too fast relative to my favorite versions. But I think his Mahler First, Second, Fourth (especially the Fourth!) and Seventh are great.


QuoteThread duty: listened tonight to the Boulez VPO recording of the B8.  Has everything the Maazel didn't have, but still not enough to make me fall in love with Anton.

I guess I'm weird  ;D I love both Boulez and Maazel in the Eighth--my favorites, in fact, along with Carlos Païta, Celi, Szell and Furtwängler '44.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on January 22, 2011, 04:57:55 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 22, 2011, 04:50:58 AM
My major problem with Maazel's M5 is that he's plays the chorale in the second movement too fast relevative to my favorite versions. But I think his Mahler First, Second, Fourth (especially the Fourth!) and Seventh are great.

Maazel's VPO M2 was terrific.  The M5 seemed to disjointed to me, it is hard to articulate why I did not feel compelled by it.  Perhaps my favorite thing by Maazel is the Holst, Planets, by the Orchestre National de France, Columbia->Sony.

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/64/01/3a3912bb9da09c004d1cb010.L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

One of the first CDs I ever owned, and still a favorite.

Quote
I guess I'm weird  ;D I love both Boulez and Maazel in the Eighth--my favorites, in fact, along with Carlos Paita, Celi, Szell and Furtwängler '44.

Sarge


Boulez hasn't grabbed me in Bruckner (or Mahler).  I enjoy his work a lot in the more modern works where the clarity of texture he achieves is astonishing.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on January 22, 2011, 02:57:02 PM
Silly question time: what do you think about the positioning of the middle movements in his 7th symphony? I can understand why Bruckner reversed them after this one. By the time we reach the 8th, the mature symphony most representative of his final thinking (that was completed, natch), the weight of the adagio was essential to place before Bruckner's now even further increasing focus on the finale as the crown of the piece. In the 8th, the scherzo being placed before the finale would essentially trivialise it.

The problem with the 7th is that it lacks all of the complete characteristics that Bruckner developed in the 8th - the finale is much less impressive, yet the adagio is his first one that breaks 20 minutes (and while it's not as long as the last two, it appears that conductors feel more able to slow the tempo to further increase the length than in earlier ones), meaning that the weight of the symphony is placed on the first two movements, leaving the final two marginalised. I'm not sure that I would endorse Colin Davis style movement swapping (which he did in a German radio recording), but the work feels like a problem piece to me due to the length of the adagio. If it wasn't any larger than the ones that came before I think that it would feel more coherent.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on January 22, 2011, 07:41:15 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 22, 2011, 04:33:35 AM
If you don't like Bruckner, how can you judge whether Maazel is a good Bruckner performer?

I did not say I didn't like Bruckner.  I said I had not yet fallen in love with him, which is a quite different thing.
I don't put him on the CD player every chance I get (unlike Bach and Mahler),  but I certainly don't run from him.
I simply do not see in him the greatness which others apparently find in him.

That said,  I think I can fairly judge Maazel's BPO 8--which struck me as emotionally lifeless--and I know from the Boulez recording this  symphony is far from emotionless.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on January 22, 2011, 08:13:10 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on January 22, 2011, 07:41:15 PMThat said,  I think I can fairly judge Maazel's BPO 8--which struck me as emotionally lifeless--and I know from the Boulez recording this  symphony is far from emotionless.

You don't seem to recognize that the "emotionally lifeless" impression has more to do with you than Maazel, especially in view of the fact that a fair number of people report the opposite impression of this recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 24, 2011, 07:24:23 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on January 21, 2011, 07:06:28 PM
Now here I have to differ from you.   I have the his recording of the M5/VPO and don't think anything is wrong with it.

We are comparing a live performance I heard with a recording you own that was made years earlier. Apples and oranges, to say the least.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 27, 2011, 01:22:53 PM
Anyone familiar with this?

[asin]B0000015AH[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on January 27, 2011, 04:09:42 PM
Quote from: Mensch on January 27, 2011, 01:22:53 PM
Anyone familiar with this?

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000015AH.01.L.jpg)

Here's Robert McColley in Fanfare:

"[...] Conductor, orchestra, and recording engineer ("Prof. Johnson," a.k.a. Keith O. Johnson) have combined to give us the most perfectly classical recording of the masterpiece to date. "Classical" here refers to the ideals of clarity, logic, coherence, proportion, and overall control. Emotion, even intense passion, are by no means excluded, but are always held on the tight leash of intellect. Much of the clarity in this recording derives from the superb engineering, but the engineer can not make strings play perfectly together or in tune; for this, the credit is entirely due the orchestra. The engineer can and does make oboes sound different from clarinets, and Wagner tubas sound different from French horns and trombones. It is the entire team of conductor, player, and engineer that makes the celebrated fortissimo chord change toward the end of the third movement so completely lucid and intelligible. This is the dissonance of 12 tones played simultaneously that has so delighted the disciples of Arnold Schoenbcrg and other progressives.  This is not THE best way to play this powerful, tragic, and utterly original work, but it is certainly ONE of the best. A case can be made for more passionate, intense, and warmly recorded versions [...] But Skrowaczewski's exquisitely recorded version has its own special distinction and grandeur. I urge listeners who take their Bruckner seriously—as everyone should—to hear it. [...]"

And Michael Jameson in the same magazine:

"Everything goes well with this convincingly argued, lovingly addressed account of Bruckner's mighty Ninth Symphony. Notwithstanding the excellence of "Prof." Keith O. Johnson's stunning recording, in itself an astonishing technical feat, this performance is massively authoritative. Bruckner's heartrendingly plangent farewell to things temporal has rarely found itself in hands as serenely assured, masterful, and selflessly dedicated as Skrowaczewski's, and the playing of the Minnesota Orchestra should cause concern in those European centers that have traditionally claimed preeminence in Bruckner performance.
From the outset, one's attention is constantly drawn to the recording itself; in fact, even those dyed-in-the-wool Brucknerians who know this work intimately will be unable to suppress astonishment at just how much aural detail and orchestral perspective is conveyed by this disc. [...]

Like Jascha Horenstein, Skrowaczewski has a special feel, too, for Bruckner's harmonic kinships and inner motions in a way that few have equaled; his is certainly one of the finest expositions of this great and terrifying symphony yet committed to disc, and I'll wager that its sojourn in the catalogs will be a lengthy and much-praised one. Stanislaw Skrowaczewski opens our senses and emotions to the surpassing Gothic amphitheater of Bruckner's world of aspiration, anxiety, and unswerving devotion to the God with whom we all come face-to-face in this music—it's a chastening yet liberating experience, and one that none of us can afford to miss."
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on January 28, 2011, 06:49:24 AM
Damn! I'm just gonna have to get it. I was furious at myself for getting the flu winter a year ago, which prevented me from going to Munich where Skrowaczewski was conducting Bruckner 2 with BRSO. I later managed to get an mp3 of the radio broadcast of the concert I meant to attend. It was the most intense, coherent and passionately played Bruckner 2 I have ever heard. I almost got sick again from frustration.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 04, 2011, 04:58:37 PM
Quote from: John on January 14, 2011, 06:13:28 AM
I found this little reference whilst looking up Hartmann.  I just wanted to say that this certainly is a reference.  Since I came to Bruckner in 1993 (or he came to me, rather) I've probably heard or posessed more Bruckner 6th Symphonies than you can shake a conductors stick at.
Last year in my living room I picked up the conductors stick myself when I heard this Leitner version of Bruckners 6th.  It was recorded in 1976, but the positioning, the sonics and probably the sheer brilliance of the conductor make this BY FAR one of the most memorable 6ths I, personally, have ever experienced.  It made me look up Leitner for more of his conducting capers, but I couldn't find any more Bruckner recodings by him. 
:'(

Leitner re-recorded the 6th in Basel, Switzerland (of Honegger 'Deliciae basiliensis' fame for those who can't quite place it). He also recorded the 9th with the Stuttgart Orchestra on the same label. Plus a few others (I don't think his Hague 7th is one of the best - badly let down by a tentative orchestra). I recall a 9th in concert that was very, very meritorious. It was cumulatively impressive.

In short: this Baden-Baden 6th and the Stuttgart 9th have as much a claim as a benchmark version as any I've heard (both in really splendid sound). I can't think of a single note that doesn't sound 'right' and 'in place', something very few conductors achieve. Jochum got it rigth only toward the tail end of his long carreer, when he had nothing to prove and nothing else to re-record - I salute his dogged, honest pursuit of the shape of the brucknerian paragraph. Karajan tried mightily fo some 50 years but only intermittently achieved convincing results, let alone greatness (significantly, in his late Vienna phase, when he was free of any 'obligation of results').

Leitner's later Basel version is a totally different proposition. One of my good friends and regular Bruckner Journal contributor thinks it's unique. I agree, but will leave it to any one with an open mind to assess. In this, Leitner reminds me of Giulini's late Concertgebouw - Vienna phase. Big, brawny, lovingly detailed, sometimes curiously uneventful. In the end it all comes together powefully, but on an intellectual, not 'physical' level. If the description helps, then you know if this 1992 Accord version is for you.

Other characterful recommendations: Bongartz, Rögner, Stein, Swoboda, Keilberth...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on February 04, 2011, 06:15:49 PM
Fantastic information Andre,  thank you very much for that.   :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2011, 03:44:45 AM
Quote from: André on February 04, 2011, 04:58:37 PM
Leitner re-recorded the 6th in Basel, Switzerland

Welcome back, André! You were missed...especially here in the Abbey.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 05, 2011, 06:27:59 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2011, 03:44:45 AM
Welcome back, André! You were missed...especially here in the Abbey.

Yes, welcome back, André! Though I must tell my fellow Brucknerians here that André and I met up in Amsterdam last year (June), for a meal and subsequent concert at the Concertgebouw (Mahler 5). Very enjoyable and memorable!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 07, 2011, 08:44:05 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X0Z6ZiFUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Just finished listening to Simone Young's recording of the original version of the 8th symphony. I must say, although I very much liked Young's recording of the original 4th - that original version is basically a completely different symphony in its own right - I'm not convinced by this one at all, mainly due to the disjointed first movement. I have to say, that, in this case, subsequent edits improved this symphony. The first movement just doesn't hang together, and I can't blame Young for it. The buildup to the climax of the first movement is not dramatically convincing, having none of the gradual buildup of intensity of the later versions, and the coda is bizarre. Another problem here is that the orchestration is quite different and more brass-heavy, which in the case of the otherwise fine Hamburgers means that their somewhat anemic strings sometimes struggle to be heard. Also, a lot of the contrapuntal writing in the later version of the first movement seems to have been later additions, which makes this version somewhat plainer. The added harp glissando swooshes are just plain gimmicky. The Scherzo is good for the Scherzo part and not too terribly different from the later version, though it has a few interesting dissonances missing in the later versions. The Trio section sounds, how should I say it, "cheesier" than the later versions. Strangely more pastoral and not in a good way.

The differences in the Adagio for the most part are not so great: a few changes in orchestration here, a different transition there. It's still one of the greatest things Bruckner ever wrote, even in the original version. There are actually a few passages where the winds gain additional prominence in this original version which make this one quite interesting to listen to. But then, shortly before the climax, there is a passage that is so completely changed harmonically and in orchestration that it sounds more like second rate Wagner than first rate Bruckner. Again, I feel it undermines the buildup to the climax. The cymbal clashes at the climax are weird. One would have made sense, but the second one is odd. The coda is still the same gorgeous horn prayer we know and love from the later versions. Similar story in the finale. It is very similar to the (uncut) 1887/90 Haas version. A few changes in orchestration, some slightly different ostinato patterns, some changes in dynamics. Otherwise this movement is closest to the later versions we all know.

So, in sum, I didn't find this as interesting or revealing as her recording of the original 4th. The first movement is distinctly inferior, as is the trio of the scherzo. The rest isn't so massively different to make this a must hear.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 08, 2011, 04:35:22 PM
Thanks !  ;)

I'm not exactly on a Bruckner roll, these days. Just too many new records to listen to. They pile up faster that I can manage. But I do have a few dozen Bruckners in the pile, so you'll here from me here and then !
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on February 08, 2011, 08:08:45 PM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001E1DHFO.01.L.jpg)

The only reason I got this set was for the new remastering of the Rosbaud B7.  This was originally on Vox (they managed to cram it onto 1 Lp).  I think this is still one of the great B7s.  If you have the old Vox CD, it's time to throw it away.  Apart from limited dynamic range, the sound is now nearly modern.  Not sure what I'm going to do with the other CDs in the set.  The Hollreiser B4 may be interesting.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Seventh Sells Fish Sandwiches
Post by: Cato on February 13, 2011, 02:40:24 PM
This was mentioned a few weeks ago: someone has placed the commercial on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.td/watch?v=MktHYesGMlY (http://www.youtube.td/watch?v=MktHYesGMlY)

Should we be outraged at the sacrilege or hopeful that perhaps somebody might want to hear more Bruckner as a result?   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on February 13, 2011, 02:45:29 PM
That is too hilarious. And although Anton might frown, I will hope your latter theory comes true.  ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Seventh Sells Fish Sandwiches
Post by: Brian on February 13, 2011, 03:00:27 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 13, 2011, 02:40:24 PM
This was mentioned a few weeks ago: someone has placed the commercial on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.td/watch?v=MktHYesGMlY (http://www.youtube.td/watch?v=MktHYesGMlY)

Should we be outraged at the sacrilege or hopeful that perhaps somebody might want to hear more Bruckner as a result?   0:)

I'll repeat my earlier comment, just because they used Bruckner I will buy Arby's* as soon as I get back to the USA. Fantastic!
*a meal, not an investment
Title: Re: Now It's Bruckner's Arby's, Not Abbey
Post by: greg on February 13, 2011, 03:44:02 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 19, 2011, 11:48:44 AM
For the non-Americans here, in the U.S. there exists a fast-food chain called "Arby's" which specializes in Roast Beef sandwiches (R-B = "Arby's").

They now have an ad on television for some special offer with a nautical theme (?).

The background music for the ad is...the opening....of Bruckner's Seventh Symphony!!!

Sacrilege or Desecration?   0:)

Or smart marketing?   8)
I've never seen it, but here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/v/MktHYesGMlY

That's funny, I actually had conceived this exact same music to be the opening music of my imaginary movie/video game project that me and my little brother have been discussing for months.

Impossible to describe in text, but basically, it shows the beginning of the universe being created while Bruckner's 7th plays. Booming voice narrator: "In the beginning, God created the heavens, the earth, and....    Man." The camera zooms up to a Larry the Cable Guy-looking redneck and he says with a big grin, "Here I is." Then this corny country theme that I made up is played and he walks out into the woods.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Seventh Sells Fish Sandwiches
Post by: John Copeland on February 13, 2011, 04:34:41 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 13, 2011, 02:40:24 PM
This was mentioned a few weeks ago: someone has placed the commercial on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.td/watch?v=MktHYesGMlY (http://www.youtube.td/watch?v=MktHYesGMlY)
Should we be outraged at the sacrilege or hopeful that perhaps somebody might want to hear more Bruckner as a result?   0:)

No Sir, we should ALL be making our way to Arbys, because two fish sandwiches for four dollars sounds like a pretty good deal.  At least, it would be here if Arbys was in the UK, where they would cost around £2.29 each.   :o
Title: Re: Bruckner's Seventh Sells Fish Sandwiches
Post by: Cato on February 14, 2011, 01:40:39 PM
Quote from: John on February 13, 2011, 04:34:41 PM
No Sir, we should ALL be making our way to Arbys, because two fish sandwiches for four dollars sounds like a pretty good deal.  At least, it would be here if Arbys was in the UK, where they would cost around £2.29 each.   :o

Now there is a reason to emigrate!   ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidRoss on February 14, 2011, 01:47:53 PM
Did the narrator say that the sandwich was rated #1 by drugcrazed.com?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Seventh Sells Fish Sandwiches
Post by: Scarpia on February 14, 2011, 01:53:52 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 13, 2011, 02:40:24 PM
This was mentioned a few weeks ago: someone has placed the commercial on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.td/watch?v=MktHYesGMlY (http://www.youtube.td/watch?v=MktHYesGMlY)

Should we be outraged at the sacrilege or hopeful that perhaps somebody might want to hear more Bruckner as a result?   0:)

Hmmm, I don't recall those bells sounding at the end of the commercial in my Karajan recording.  Arby's must be using one of Bruckner less well-considered revised manuscripts for that performance.   :-\
Title: Re: Bruckner's Seventh Sells Fish Sandwiches
Post by: Cato on February 14, 2011, 04:03:58 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 14, 2011, 01:53:52 PM
Hmmm, I don't recall those bells sounding at the end of the commercial in my Karajan recording.  Arby's must be using one of Bruckner less well-considered revised manuscripts for that performance.   :-\

Not to mention the Antonio-Banderas wannabe narrating the thing!   ;D   

Schoenberg of course had a Sprecher for the Gurrelieder, which Bruckner might have understood.

But the only thing Bruckner might understand about the commercial is that the fish-sandwich sale is in preparation for Lent!   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 15, 2011, 08:05:57 PM
Latest listening sessions were devoted to a live (BBC Testament ) 4th with the LSO under Istvan Kertesz (1964) and another live, this time the 7th under Gary Bertini, conducting the Kölner Rundunk S.O, from 1988. 

In olden times, when Bruckner symphony recordings were still a specialty produced in good, reputed places, in months without an 'r', the Decca Kertesz LSO commercial recording held an honoured position. This Testament recording is a live event from the year before, presumably a preparation to the official recording. And well recorded it is, if that's a concern. It preserves a concert from the Royal Festival Hall (1963). Curiously, I find here the same clunky, 'malhabile' kind of reading (I mean: reading') that embarrassed most of us when Decca issued the Mehta/LAPO version. I mean, this, from the same conductor and label who gave us the classic, effulgent, gorgeously decadent, deliquescent 9th with the WP... Well, to get us back on track: this 4th is just about as well played but  interpretatively undistinguished as the Mehta Decca 4th.

I would imagine the contemporaneous Decca recording should sound just about the same. Any comments?

A generation later, whe have the likes of Gary Bertini, a respected but relatively little-known conductor, and the Kölner Rundfunk RSO. That's Cologne Radio symphony for most of us folks, a relatively little-known outfit (because we're North Americans) that routinely play, broadcast and record excellent perfoormances of music by Schumann, Mozart , Wagner and Bruckner.  Here Bertini, a jewish conducor in the Horenstein, pre-1960 Klemperer mould, gives us a terribly objective intepretation that seems to inhabit a different aesthetic world as that of  Böhm, Blomstedt or Walter (or other advocates of the objective, affectionate-but-unsentimental interpretive school). In a nutshell, it's really good, but  rather just too 'inside' the work for folks who have listened to dozens and dozens of 'very good'  and 'objective' recordings. It should lay out the score instead of propulsing it away from us.  In my POV, Bertini is very Horenstein-like. I want a strongly profiled, ecstatic interretation in nec plus ultra orchestral garb. Blomstedt Dresden, Giulini, Karajan or Böhm with the WP still reign.



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 16, 2011, 07:08:48 AM
Quote from: André on February 15, 2011, 08:05:57 PM
and the Kölner Rundfunk RSO. That's Cologne Radio symphony for most of us folks, a relatively little-known outfit (because we're North Americans) that routinely play, broadcast and record excellent perfoormances of music by Schumann, Mozart , Wagner and Bruckner.

a.k.a. the WDR Sinfonieorchester (West German Radio). And  they do some very fine Shotakovich as well (Barshai).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Seventh Sells Fish Sandwiches
Post by: John Copeland on February 16, 2011, 08:02:49 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 14, 2011, 01:53:52 PM
Hmmm, I don't recall those bells sounding at the end of the commercial in my Karajan recording.  Arby's must be using one of Bruckner less well-considered revised manuscripts for that performance.   :-\

LITERALLY    LOL   LOL   LOL     :D :D ;D :D :D :D :D
Only Classical Music lovers and collectors can understand such a response.
:D :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Seventh Sells Fish Sandwiches
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 16, 2011, 08:10:14 AM
Quote from: John of Glasgow on February 16, 2011, 08:02:49 AM
LITERALLY    LOL   LOL   LOL     :D :D ;D :D :D :D :D
Only Classical Music lovers and collectors can understand such a response.
:D :D


Agreed.  :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 16, 2011, 01:15:22 PM
Quote from: Daverz on January 27, 2011, 04:09:42 PM
Here's Robert McColley in Fanfare:

"[...] Conductor, orchestra, and recording engineer ("Prof. Johnson," a.k.a. Keith O. Johnson) have combined to give us the most perfectly classical recording of the masterpiece to date. "Classical" here refers to the ideals of clarity, logic, coherence, proportion, and overall control. Emotion, even intense passion, are by no means excluded, but are always held on the tight leash of intellect. Much of the clarity in this recording derives from the superb engineering, but the engineer can not make strings play perfectly together or in tune; for this, the credit is entirely due the orchestra. The engineer can and does make oboes sound different from clarinets, and Wagner tubas sound different from French horns and trombones. It is the entire team of conductor, player, and engineer that makes the celebrated fortissimo chord change toward the end of the third movement so completely lucid and intelligible. This is the dissonance of 12 tones played simultaneously that has so delighted the disciples of Arnold Schoenbcrg and other progressives.  This is not THE best way to play this powerful, tragic, and utterly original work, but it is certainly ONE of the best. A case can be made for more passionate, intense, and warmly recorded versions [...] But Skrowaczewski's exquisitely recorded version has its own special distinction and grandeur. I urge listeners who take their Bruckner seriously—as everyone should—to hear it. [...]"

And Michael Jameson in the same magazine:

"Everything goes well with this convincingly argued, lovingly addressed account of Bruckner's mighty Ninth Symphony. Notwithstanding the excellence of "Prof." Keith O. Johnson's stunning recording, in itself an astonishing technical feat, this performance is massively authoritative. Bruckner's heartrendingly plangent farewell to things temporal has rarely found itself in hands as serenely assured, masterful, and selflessly dedicated as Skrowaczewski's, and the playing of the Minnesota Orchestra should cause concern in those European centers that have traditionally claimed preeminence in Bruckner performance.
From the outset, one's attention is constantly drawn to the recording itself; in fact, even those dyed-in-the-wool Brucknerians who know this work intimately will be unable to suppress astonishment at just how much aural detail and orchestral perspective is conveyed by this disc. [...]

Like Jascha Horenstein, Skrowaczewski has a special feel, too, for Bruckner's harmonic kinships and inner motions in a way that few have equaled; his is certainly one of the finest expositions of this great and terrifying symphony yet committed to disc, and I'll wager that its sojourn in the catalogs will be a lengthy and much-praised one. Stanislaw Skrowaczewski opens our senses and emotions to the surpassing Gothic amphitheater of Bruckner's world of aspiration, anxiety, and unswerving devotion to the God with whom we all come face-to-face in this music—it's a chastening yet liberating experience, and one that none of us can afford to miss."

Thanks for this recommendation, daverz. I just finished listening to this one for the third time. It is a magnificent recording, indeed. I think for anyone who really wants to take a look at the inner workings of this symphony, this recording is a must due to it's incredibly spacious sonics and the excellence of the execution which makes every line audible and crystal clear. Skrowaczewski is a magnificent Brucknerian. My one complaint here is that this lacks some of the spontaneity that Skro is capable of otherwise. If that wasn't missing, this would be an absolute top recommendations. Given that relative lack of emotional intensity, my top recommendations still remain Barenboim (both BPO and CSO) and Wand/NDR (on DVD).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 22, 2011, 05:20:14 PM
Following Kertesz' Bruckner 4 with Abbado's 2006 Lucerne Festival Orchestra couldn't be more of a contrast. Where Kertesz presents a bluff, brusque reading in primary colours, Abbado's is all about orchestral refinement and long term control. I was awed by the horn's incredibly soft playing at the beginning, only to be disappointed somewhat by the polite, soft-edged first tutti, where the theme erupts in the brass like a bunch of elephants tumbling down a flight of stairs. Well, no pachyderms here. It's all extremely well-behaved and euphonious. Bruckner seen through the prism of Brahms' second.  Abbado's interpretation is one of infinite nuances, carried out by an orchestra capable of  every timbral and rythmic refinements the maestro wants to conjure from them. In the andante I was stunned to hear the great string  paragraph around 4:00-5:15 played with no vibrato. This is very hazardous, as every tiny lapse in intonation from one of the players will stick out like a sore thumb. It's a tribute to all that no such misshap occurs, but I realized I was listening more to the playing than to Bruckner's ineffable melody. Still, kudos to all. The scherzo is fine but, compared to Abbado's 1991 Vienna version it falls short in just about every department. The previous version's rustic colours, bold swagger and proud display of brass pyrotechnics is replaced by an emphasis on winds and strings. I heard wind details I had never noticed before. They are there in Vienna, but they don't come across as splendidly as here. Gone too is the viennese timpanist's enthusiastic tattos in the closing bars of the two scherzo sections. Too bad. The finale is excellent. Here Abbado shows a mastery of transitions that is simply amazing. I repeatedly held my breath in those disappearing-in-the-distance closing bars of the various sections, and at the beginning of the next. And his control over the span of the huge arc that closes the symphony is tremendous. Not for everyday consumption, but there's no mistake a master is at work.

This is live from tokyo, from the Lucerne Festival's own label. I'm not 100% sure about the sound. Wind details emerge pellucidly, but brass tuttis are very rounded and soft-edged. I didn't know if it was the conductor's balances or the engineers' microphone placement. I would have welcomed more oomph to the tuttis.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 26, 2011, 07:27:35 PM
Yesterday's listening session was devoted to Wand's Kölner Rundfunk version of the fourth. This is very different from either Kertesz or Abbado, or even Wand's own much later BP recording. Closer to Jochum, maybe. Although the orchestra features excellent strings and winds, the brass are sometimes stretched - horns especially - and come close to letting Wand's impetuous interpretation down. But they manage to acquit themselves well enough. Better that than a tepid or vulgar reading. Wand moulds the work in a single arc, with a clear eye on the final climax. He doesn't go for ultra refinement, but propels the work steadily forward. His comes across as a bardic storytelling. The supposed medieval castles, knights,  daybeak in the primeval forest and other nature-inspired musical ideas readily spring to mind when listening to Wand's powerful, very direct account. Quite wonderful, but I miss Abbado's very special touches, as well as a few others' own insights (Suitner, Böhm, Barenboim, Kubelik, Konwitschny, Rögner - it's a long list). All told, a fine reading that gives a ready access to the work.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on March 02, 2011, 11:15:34 AM
Listening to the 7th by Norrington and Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart des SWR and can't say I like this recording much.  A little too speedy for my liking.  :(

On deck:  For the first time, Klemperer's 7th with Philharmonia Orchestra.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on March 02, 2011, 07:05:34 PM
OK, even though I know it isn't mandatory and was actually one of those meddling buddies of Bruckner idea, I REALLY do love it when the cymbal crash is included in the 7th's Adagio.   Aahhh.....there, I said it.  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on March 03, 2011, 06:57:15 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 02, 2011, 07:05:34 PM
OK, even though I know it isn't mandatory and was actually one of those meddling buddies of Bruckner idea, I REALLY do love it when the cymbal crash is included in the 7th's Adagio.   Aahhh.....there, I said it.  ;D

No harm done  ;). When it's well done it's terrific. The cymbal crash and triangle option also means the timpani parts are different. Not all cymbal+triangle conductors have the balls to play it for all it's worth. It's like Mahlers 6th's hammerblows or the Verdi Requiem's Dies irae bass drum strokes: a 'musical' approach will disappoint.  Don't stint on elbow force ! OTOH, a big-boned, powerful account of the percussionless climax in the Adagio will leave me in awe every time. Commitment rules.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidRoss on March 04, 2011, 08:58:16 AM
Quote from: André on February 15, 2011, 08:05:57 PM
Blomstedt Dresden, Giulini, Karajan or Böhm with the WP still reign.
Blomstedt's that good with Bruckner, too, eh?  The Berliner Zeitung certainly agrees with you, calling him "undeniably the greatest conductor of Bruckner that there is today."  Which recordings would you recommend?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on March 04, 2011, 09:09:48 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on March 04, 2011, 08:58:16 AM
Blomstedt's that good with Bruckner, too, eh?  The Berliner Zeitung certainly agrees with you, calling him "undeniably the greatest conductor of Bruckner that there is today."  Which recordings would you recommend?

You haven't heard this one?

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/9a/a8/5493b2c008a0031411479010.L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I seem to like all of the Blomstedt/San Francisco recordings, and this was the one that got me started.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidRoss on March 04, 2011, 09:26:30 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 04, 2011, 09:09:48 AM
You haven't heard this one?
Nope.  It was only about 3 years ago that I made peace with Bruckner, long after Blomstedt had left SF.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on March 04, 2011, 09:37:01 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on March 04, 2011, 09:26:30 AM
Nope.  It was only about 3 years ago that I made peace with Bruckner, long after Blomstedt had left SF.

[EDIT: Image broken. But it's the at-long-last back-on-CD Blomstedt/Dresden Bruckner 7. You may need to import it from the UK but that's a lot cheaper than the way it used to be.]

You can thank me later. :)

*For the Seventh, I find myself preferring Sanderling on Hanssler more and more these days, for its luxurious beauty and perfect tempos, but Blomstedt's Seventh really is something very special. The Staatskapelle Dresden cellos always make me fear, for the first few seconds of the symphony, that I'm going to burst into tears.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidRoss on March 04, 2011, 02:23:30 PM
Ordered from UK, on the strength of your recommendation above and your Musicweb review, Brian!  First CD purchase of 2011 (had to happen sooner or later  ;) )

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PbjB4ubxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 04, 2011, 02:54:40 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 02, 2011, 07:05:34 PM
OK, even though I know it isn't mandatory and was actually one of those meddling buddies of Bruckner idea, I REALLY do love it when the cymbal crash is included in the 7th's Adagio.   Aahhh.....there, I said it.  ;D

Eugen Jochum used the cymbal clash, and the triangle, in the 7th's Adagio, so take a deep breath!   $:)

Bruckner's near refusal to use such things has always been fascinating to me: consider his student Mahler having little fear of such effects.

The only conclusion: he never felt the need to use wood blocks, or snare drums, or col legno effects. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on March 04, 2011, 03:01:04 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 04, 2011, 02:54:40 PMBruckner's near refusal to use such things has always been fascinating to me: consider his student Mahler having little fear of such effects.

As far as I know Mahler never studied with Bruckner, and aside from the tendency to write long works with a lot of brass, I find very little similarity between the approach to music taken by Bruckner and Mahler.  Bruckner was the epitome of "symphonic" utterance and Maher threw everything but the kitchen sink into his symphonies.   The rejection of percussion "effects" by Bruckner and the embrace of the same effects by Mahler is perfectly characteristic, in my view.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on March 04, 2011, 04:11:16 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 04, 2011, 02:54:40 PM
Eugen Jochum used the cymbal clash, and the triangle, in the 7th's Adagio, so take a deep breath!   $:)


Yes, I recognized this from the SD EMI recordings.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Keemun on March 04, 2011, 04:38:59 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 02, 2011, 07:05:34 PM
OK, even though I know it isn't mandatory and was actually one of those meddling buddies of Bruckner idea, I REALLY do love it when the cymbal crash is included in the 7th's Adagio.   Aahhh.....there, I said it.  ;D

Not me, I prefer no cymbal crash.  It is too jarring.  :o
Title: Re: Bruckner and Mahler
Post by: Cato on March 05, 2011, 12:11:13 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 04, 2011, 03:01:04 PM
As far as I know Mahler never studied with Bruckner, and aside from the tendency to write long works with a lot of brass, I find very little similarity between the approach to music taken by Bruckner and Mahler.  Bruckner was the epitome of "symphonic" utterance and Maher threw everything but the kitchen sink into his symphonies.   The rejection of percussion "effects" by Bruckner and the embrace of the same effects by Mahler is perfectly characteristic, in my view.

Mahler may not have been officially under Bruckner's tutelage, but it is known that he attended Bruckner's lectures, and was certainly one of the acolytes around him.

Bruno Walter wrote this in an essay entitled Bruckner and Mahler:

Quote
"I often heard him call Bruckner his forerunner, asserting that his own creations followed the trail blazed by his senior master. Of course that was over forty years ago, in the days of Mahler's Second, the symphony which, more vividly than all his other works, reveals his affinity with Bruckner. Yet from the Third Symphony on, his development was marked by an ever increasing deviation from Bruckner's course. I cannot recall Mahler making the same remark during later years. Nevertheless, down to his latest works, we meet with occasional features which might be called Brucknerian. Thus it is worth while attaining a clear idea of the nature and degree of their relationship."

For the entire essay (and very worthwhile reading):

http://www.uv.es/~calaforr/walter.html (http://www.uv.es/~calaforr/walter.html)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on March 06, 2011, 08:43:43 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on March 04, 2011, 02:23:30 PM
Ordered from UK, on the strength of your recommendation above and your Musicweb review, Brian!  First CD purchase of 2011 (had to happen sooner or later  ;) )

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PbjB4ubxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

You chose wisely  ;) . His Decca recording of the 9th is also quite special. Whereas his Dresden 7th is luminous, radiant, caramelized and beautifully contoured, the Leipzig 9th is stark, saturnine, dramatic, darkly chocolatey. I'm not aware of the SF 4th, but would certainly like to hear it. His powerful 2nd in Montreal (original version) makes me wish a recording was made of it. I know a tape is out there somewhere, as this was the recording chosen a year or two ago by John Berky for the annual brucknerthon. There are recordings of a danish and a Hamburg concert. I haven't heard them.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on March 13, 2011, 08:38:05 AM
I recently listened to the 4th symphony, under Celibidache and the Munich Philharmonic (1993).

It's unlike any other I've heard. I don't have the commercial EMI account at hand for comparison, but if memory serves I had found Celi's elephantine approach unnerving. That EMI release is from 1988 and lasts close to 79 minutes. Well, that 1993 Tokyo performance clocks in at a whopping 86 minutes  :o Something must have happened to me in the interval, for I found this monster absolutely fascinating, and as true a representation of Bruckner's music as those of more classic accounts that take 20-25 minutes less to unfold. This interpretation's claim to fame definitely lies in the gigantic finale (30 minutes + here). It reveals many details I had never noticed before. In particular, Celibidache has a totally novel way to prepare and develop the monumental coda. Over a full 5 minutes' duration - twice as long as usual - he has the strings pounding a two note ostinato that soon becomes as hypnotic and crushing in its insistence as some similar moments in Shostakovich (the coda to 5:IV and 7:IV). Normally the brass chorale overtakes and overwhelms the rest of the orchestra, but not so here.

All told, a one-off kind of interpretation I don't expect ever to hear again. Theorchestra play magnificently and the in-concert sound is very good. I guess I should track down the EMI release...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on March 13, 2011, 09:33:27 AM
Bruckner 4-9 with Staatskapelle Berlin/Barenboim can be heard and seen online at the Arte website:

http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/festival/Der_Bruckner_Zyklus/
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on March 13, 2011, 09:47:26 AM
Quote from: MishaK on March 13, 2011, 09:33:27 AM
Bruckner 4-9 with Staatskapelle Berlin/Barenboim can be heard and seen online at the Arte website:

http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/festival/Der_Bruckner_Zyklus/

Trying to play any of the tracks leads to German text appearing on the screen, apparently prompting you to click something, then nothing happens. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on March 13, 2011, 11:43:16 AM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on March 13, 2011, 10:25:49 AM
It works for me.  Clicking on the link brings up a page with clickable links for each symphony, which I have copied here:

Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 4 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Zyklus___Symphonie_Nr__4/)
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 5 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Zyklus___Symphonie_Nr__5/)
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 6 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Zyklus___Symphonie_Nr__6/)
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 7 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Zyklus___Symphonie_Nr__7/)
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 8 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Symphonie8/)
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 9 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Zyklus___Symphonie_Nr__9/)

Each starts with the same title sequence, then launches into the full symphony (whichever that is.)

Ok, now it's working.  But after watching for five minutes, the main issue in my mind is not Bruckner, but "is that horn player male or female?"
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 13, 2011, 12:36:24 PM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on March 13, 2011, 10:25:49 AM
It works for me.  Clicking on the link brings up a page with clickable links for each symphony, which I have copied here:

Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 4 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Zyklus___Symphonie_Nr__4/)
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 5 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Zyklus___Symphonie_Nr__5/)
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 6 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Zyklus___Symphonie_Nr__6/)
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 7 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Zyklus___Symphonie_Nr__7/)
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 8 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Symphonie8/)
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 9 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Zyklus___Symphonie_Nr__9/)

Each starts with the same title sequence, then launches into the full symphony (whichever that is.)
Awesome - do you know how long the links stay up?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 14, 2011, 12:03:59 AM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on March 13, 2011, 10:25:49 AM
It works for me.  Clicking on the link brings up a page with clickable links for each symphony, which I have copied here:

Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 4 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Zyklus___Symphonie_Nr__4/)
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 5 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Zyklus___Symphonie_Nr__5/)
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 6 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Zyklus___Symphonie_Nr__6/)
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 7 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Zyklus___Symphonie_Nr__7/)
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 8 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Symphonie8/)
Bruckner Zyklus - Symphonie Nr. 9 (http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/Bruckner_Zyklus___Symphonie_Nr__9/)

Each starts with the same title sequence, then launches into the full symphony (whichever that is.)
I've had a chance to listen to #9, and this is pretty good (some quibbles, but that is not for here). What DID stand out for me is that for a good 10-15 seconds after the piece is done there is complete silence. I wish more audiences would do this so that you can here the final echoes of the final chords and let the feeling of that moment stay with you.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on March 14, 2011, 07:12:55 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 14, 2011, 12:03:59 AM
I've had a chance to listen to #9, and this is pretty good (some quibbles, but that is not for here). What DID stand out for me is that for a good 10-15 seconds after the piece is done there is complete silence. I wish more audiences would do this so that you can here the final echoes of the final chords and let the feeling of that moment stay with you.

YES!!! I was in awe of that as well. And agree, very good performance, but perhaps not his best. In 2003 I heard Barenboim conduct the same in the same place but with the CSO on tour. That performance was unbelievable. Just a few notches more refined and more intense.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on March 14, 2011, 06:50:29 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 04, 2011, 03:01:04 PM
As far as I know Mahler never studied with Bruckner, and aside from the tendency to write long works with a lot of brass, I find very little similarity between the approach to music taken by Bruckner and Mahler.  Bruckner was the epitome of "symphonic" utterance and Maher threw everything but the kitchen sink into his symphonies.   The rejection of percussion "effects" by Bruckner and the embrace of the same effects by Mahler is perfectly characteristic, in my view.
See also Toucan's fascinating Bach/Beethoven parallel.

For me there are similarities which go unremarked, as Bruckner's melodic and colouristic talents are often overlooked, due to his imposing formal aspects. Also, of course, Mahler would have looked at Bruckner's handling of the large scale, as there was almost no other precedent to study. As to their differences, perhaps we can say that Bruckner was a composer of the cathedral, while Mahler was a composer of the theatre.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on April 11, 2011, 04:04:08 AM
Trying to catch up with this thread!

Firstly,

Quote from: Brewski on December 09, 2010, 11:02:52 AM
Ah... 0:)  Those were some great, great years with the orchestra.  Nothing like the Cleveland brass, playing their guts out at the end!

--Bruce

Indeed! I heard them play the pre-revision ('original') version of the 8th last summer, and 'playing their guts out' sounds apt.


Secondly, caramelized (though meant as praise by André, above) is exactly the right word for why I don't like that Blomstedt 7th. Like all late Bruckner, the 7th to me is tortured, transfigurative and almost physically powerful (cf. Karajan/VPO). Yet Blomstedt makes pretty sounds.

However, hearing the tiniest of snippets from a recent live Blomstedt 6th in Berlin excited me far more than his entire Dresden 7th ever did.

With further regard to the 6th, discussed here recently[?], I believe the following might be of interest to those of you cathedrally* inclined.


[asin]B00442M0WQ[/asin]


I am not assuming most of you haven't already heard it. Yet beyond my general - and unexpected - appreciation of Eschenbach's 'late' style, I have so far failed to convince myself that I have heard a more successful Bruckner 6th than this, all in all. It's orchestrally powerful, its slow movement is of Celibidachean magnitude, and most importantly there is a reading. Unlike such studio embarrassments as Karajan's version (and this is me saying this), Eschenbach actually 'listens', as it were, to the Bruckner 6th, rather than 'telling' it what it is.

Less obtusely, what I mean to say is that Eschenbach presents the work as a stand-alone symphony, vs. a segment of the Bruckner canon. By no means is his execution unmannered, but it really did convince me even more than the Celibidache, and I have to say I'm hugely impressed!


*As opposed to those of you who enjoy less emphasis on any Romantic elements, to put it as neutrally as possible!


Lastly, I do think we've gone over the whole Bruckner-Mahler issue before; but further to Cato's quoted passage, there is an interesting Walter interview, included in a now-OOP Original Jacket Collection, where he makes the same point. I could upload it if desired.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on April 11, 2011, 06:36:39 AM
Renfield, thanks for that review. Bizarre as Eschenbach sometimes is, I heard him once conduct the most transcendent Bruckner 8th I have ever heard, live or on record. So I can believe that he has something to say here. On my wish list it goes.  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Opus106 on April 11, 2011, 06:48:45 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 14, 2011, 12:03:59 AM
What DID stand out for me is that for a good 10-15 seconds after the piece is done there is complete silence. I wish more audiences would do this so that you can here the final echoes of the final chords and let the feeling of that moment stay with you.

You should check out Abbado's Mahler 9th from Lucerne last year -- the audience was in silence for nearly two minutes after the last note faded.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Second/1872 Original + How Things Change
Post by: Cato on April 26, 2011, 09:40:24 AM
First, how is it that over two weeks have gone by, and nobody has written anything here in  Bruckner's Abbey 0:)   ?!

Today, while painting the kitchen, I cranked up my classic 1960's Eugen Jochum/DGG recordings of the Fourth and Fifth.  I was enjoying everything about them, as usual, and was amazed at how fresh and clear everything sounded, even a room away: of course, the Surround Sound was exhaling fairly loudly, given the absence of the Most Excellent Mrs.   $:)   Cato!   :o

So the final bars of the Fourth Movement of the Fifth are approaching, and my musical mind has always wondered why Jochum saw fit to slow down the tempo by almost half for the Grand Finale, which I have always been skeptical about ever since I heard it over 40 years ago.  My skepticism has led to counter-ideas e.g. that one could make a case for speeding up the tempo.

And so, on comes the Grand Finale with the slowed tempo...and...and I cannot figure out why it seems just fine now!!!    :o

Has it taken over 40 years for this interpretation (certainly the Nowak score (bar 564 p. 172)  has nothing about halving the tempo) to convince me of its validity, rather than it being an awry and willful intrusion by the conductor?

Or was it the extra volume?  (Hmm!)

I do believe I will listen to it again this afternoon and plumb the pipes of the psyche for an answer!

The Second Symphony on NAXOS with the William Carragan edition of the original 1872 score has nothing but 5-star reviews on Amazon.  Leopold Nowak's work has been the equivalent of the Revised Standard Version, but I am willing to hear this version, as the claim says it is faithful ( as much as possible) to the original manuscript.

What are the opinions here at GMG?  (Who knows whether NAXOS shills, toadies, and assorted sycophants have not written all those Amazon reviews?!)   ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on April 26, 2011, 09:48:04 AM
Toadies! Yikes!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Second/1872 Original + How Things Change
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 26, 2011, 10:08:48 AM
Quote from: Cato on April 26, 2011, 09:40:24 AM
And so, on comes the Grand Finale with the slowed tempo...and...and I cannot figure out why it seems just fine now!!!    :o

Historically (ref my history) I've liked what Jochum does with that coda, especially in the Concertgebouw recording where he also employs an additional battalion of brass. Grand indeed. But recently Dohnányi and Barenboim (Berlin) have convinced me that taking Bruckner at his word is just as effective, maybe more so. Nice to have a listening choice.

About Tintner/Carragan Second: I have it but haven't given it a close listen. I'll have to do that soon.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Second/1872 Original + How Things Change
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 26, 2011, 11:51:42 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 26, 2011, 10:08:48 AMAbout Tintner/Carragan Second: I have it but haven't given it a close listen. I'll have to do that soon.


Same here - have it, but the last time I listened was ages ago. What IS unforgettable, despite the fact it has been a while, is the Bruckner Third under Tintner, in the original 1873 version (ed. Nowak). There are a few passages there Bruckner cut, which are really sensational.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 26, 2011, 12:40:34 PM
Thanks to Sarge and Herr Herrenberg!

Well, I gave the old Jochum recording  a second listen today, with the score for the first time in years, and 40 years of skepticism have fallen away!   :o

Maybe the cranked-up volume convinced my subconscious of its error!  Sarge is quite right however!  Following the score is usually the best policy!  I will look for those CD's at the library.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey - Die Sechste ist die Keckste!
Post by: Cato on April 27, 2011, 09:05:14 AM
Today I revisited - with the Nowak score - the Sixth Symphony. with Jochum on DGG.

Supposedly less popular than the Second, it remains nevertheless an audacious work, and my aging ears find it as amazing as I did when I was 14 or so and heard it for the first time.  The structure, which baffled Hanslick and other critics, and possibly also Mahler who conducted the first "complete" performance after "severely altering" the score, is a mosaic of sorts, with some interesting thematic connections.  e.g. I have not read an analysis which links the second theme of the opening movement (bar 57 in the Nowak score) to the Funeral March in the Adagio , but I hear a linkage, perhaps subtle, yet really not all that subtle upon closer examination.

The composer himself said: "The Sixth is the brattiest!"  (Die Sechste ist die Keckste.)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey - Die Sechste ist die Keckste!
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2011, 09:36:02 AM
Quote from: Cato on April 27, 2011, 09:05:14 AM
Today I revisited - with the Nowak score - the Sixth Symphony. with Jochum on DGG


That's the one with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, isn't it? I cherish that performance, especially the Adagio (which I prefer to the one in the Seventh, btw).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey - Die Sechste ist die Keckste!
Post by: Cato on April 27, 2011, 09:45:33 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2011, 09:36:02 AM

That's the one with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, isn't it? I cherish that performance, especially the Adagio (which I prefer to the one in the Seventh, btw).

Yes, it is a barn-burner!   :D  And yes again, the Adagio is actually very spiritual in a perhaps more meditative fashion than its counterpart in the Seventh.
Title: Re: Bruckner in Taiwan!
Post by: Cato on April 30, 2011, 03:18:05 PM
I came across this through a German acquaintance who is a professor in Taiwan:

http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=1572057 (http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=1572057)

The premiere of Bruckner's E minor Mass in Taiwan.

QuoteThe chorus's director Wu Shang-lun said that their concerts will feature works by German and Austrian composers in the Romantic Period in the late 19th century, including Anton Bruckner, Joseph Rheinberger and Johannes Brahms.

"This will be our first time to perform Bruckner's Mass No. 2 in E minor in Taiwan," Wu added.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 01, 2011, 09:36:08 AM
Started listening to this one:

[asin]B00140L7CU[/asin]

Oh, my god, so, so, so bad!  The same problem I have always had with Norrington, back to his Haydn symphony recordings on EMI, no control of balance, constant sense of one voice dominating the sonority with all others burried.  All sound and fury, no harmony and counterpoint.

But I was intrigues by some of the weird things that were in Bruckner's first version of the 3rd. 

Switched to this one after getting half-way through Norrington's first movement

[asin]B00008UVC2[/asin]

Not the greatest Bruckner interpreter, but the orchestra is competently balanced, generally well done although perhaps more monumental than necessary.

In any case, the first version of the 3rd symphony has some fascinating things in it, and some awkward things.  There is a trumpet figure in the Scherzo that is too complex in this version that Bruckner seems to have simplified in the final version.  Lots of odd interjections that got cut in the final version.  And the slow movement of the original version, doesn't seem to hold together too well, until all of a sudden I seem to be listening to Tannhauser.  Certainly worthwhile to hear the original, even if the final version contains some improvements.



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 01, 2011, 12:04:43 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 01, 2011, 09:36:08 AM
Started listening to this one:
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00140L7CU.01.L.jpg)

Oh, my god, so, so, so bad!  The same problem I have always had with Norrington, back to his Haydn symphony recordings on EMI, no control of balance, constant sense of one voice dominating the sonority with all others burried.  All sound and fury, no harmony and counterpoint.

But I was intrigues by some of the weird things that were in Bruckner's first version of the 3rd. 

Switched to this one after getting half-way through Norrington's first movement
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00008UVC2.01.L.jpg)

Not the greatest Bruckner interpreter, but the orchestra is competently balanced, generally well done although perhaps more monumental than necessary.

In any case, the first version of the 3rd symphony has some fascinating things in it, and some awkward things.  There is a trumpet figure in the Scherzo that is too complex in this version that Bruckner seems to have simplified in the final version.  Lots of odd interjections that got cut in the final version.  And the slow movement of the original version, doesn't seem to hold together too well, until all of a sudden I seem to be listening to Tannhauser.  Certainly worthwhile to hear the original, even if the final version contains some improvements.

Tintner on Naxos is terrific in this first version. He takes his time and it doesn't feel slow at all. And the playing of the Scottish National Orchestra is wonderful. Just saying...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on May 01, 2011, 12:06:38 PM
This is appropriate, I am out looking for a good recording of the 3rd in modern sound.  I'll take it not Norrington! ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 01, 2011, 12:40:23 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 01, 2011, 12:06:38 PM
This is appropriate, I am out looking for a good recording of the 3rd in modern sound.  I'll take it not Norrington! ;D

The booklet contains an essay by Norrington about how everyone had played the symphony all wrong until he came along.  Not a good sign.  I've seem people on this board (as I recall) say that after having collected a dozen or more versions of their favorite Bruckner symphony Norrington was actually something new.  In that sense he has a niche.  I'll agree it was something new, but not in a good way from my point of view.   I paid only 2 bucks for it, so I felt comfortable turning it off after 15 minutes.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 01, 2011, 01:10:29 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 01, 2011, 12:06:38 PM
This is appropriate, I am out looking for a good recording of the 3rd in modern sound.  I'll take it not Norrington! ;D

Well, as is usual, my recommendation is Eugen Jochum's DGG recording, but that version is Leopold Nowak's Edition of the 1889 revision. 

The NAXOS/ Tintner CD with the 1873 version (edited by Nowak) has received some rave reviews.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 01, 2011, 01:12:49 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 01, 2011, 01:10:29 PM
Well, as is usual, my recommendation is Eugen Jochum's DGG recording, but that version is Leopold Nowak's Edition of the 1889 revision.

That's your idea of modern sound?

Just get this set and be done with it.

[asin]B0000CESR7[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on May 01, 2011, 02:45:54 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 01, 2011, 01:10:29 PM
Well, as is usual, my recommendation is Eugen Jochum's DGG recording, but that version is Leopold Nowak's Edition of the 1889 revision. 

The NAXOS/ Tintner CD with the 1873 version (edited by Nowak) has received some rave reviews.

Yeah Jochum DGG set is my favorite, but that's what I'm replacing... the sound is too dated.  Not enough detail.  I'm not an audiophile, just want to be able to breath in all of the detail that is there.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on May 01, 2011, 07:19:09 PM
Simone Young has also done a praised recording of the original 3rd.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2011, 06:58:15 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 01, 2011, 12:06:38 PM
I am out looking for a good recording of the 3rd in modern sound.  I'll take it not Norrington! ;D

Not until you've bought and heard twenty-three other versions. Then buy Norrington (something completely different): you'll love it...at least I do  8)


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2011, 07:12:17 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 01, 2011, 07:19:09 PM
Simone Young has also done a praised recording of the original 3rd.

Also Kent Nagano has one. 10/10 review from the Hurwitzer (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=7998) ("this performance of Bruckner's original, 1873 score is the finest available")


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on May 02, 2011, 08:19:39 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2011, 07:12:17 AM
Also Kent Nagano has one. 10/10 review from the Hurwitzer (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=7998) ("this performance of Bruckner's original, 1873 score is the finest available")
Sarge

One of the many incidents where he is much finer on recording than in concert. Except a recent live Bruckner 9th, which has to be said was stupendous, esp. compared to the middle-of-the-road-ism that I had just heard with Haitink (and a better orchestra) a few weeks before.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 02, 2011, 08:33:22 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2011, 07:12:17 AM
Also Kent Nagano has one. 10/10 review from the Hurwitzer (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=7998) ("this performance of Bruckner's original, 1873 score is the finest available")


Sarge

They were very clever to omit all information about the version from the title and cover of the CD.   ::)

Snagged a copy of this rather rare out-of-print CD.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2011, 08:39:48 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 02, 2011, 08:33:22 AM
They were very clever to omit all information about the version from the title and cover of the CD.   ::)

It's on the back cover. I'm actually surprised it's not prominently displayed on front. I would think it would be a selling point.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scarpia on May 02, 2011, 08:44:07 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2011, 08:39:48 AM
It's on the back cover. I'm actually surprised it's not prominently displayed on front. I would think it would be a selling point.

There is no image of the back cover on Amazon.  Probably why it's out-of-print.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2011, 08:44:48 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 02, 2011, 08:44:07 AM
Probably why it's out-of-print.

;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on May 02, 2011, 09:24:10 AM
Alright Nagano sounds good with me, I've ordered it. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 02, 2011, 01:49:31 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 02, 2011, 09:24:10 AM
Alright Nagano sounds good with me, I've ordered it. :)

So have I!  Which purchase breaks my personal rule of not buying multiple versions, but the reviews were so enthusiastic, and I do like very much Nagano's conducting in Busoni's opera Doctor Faust.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Second/1872 Original + How Things Change
Post by: MishaK on May 02, 2011, 02:15:24 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 26, 2011, 10:08:48 AM
About Tintner/Carragan Second: I have it but haven't given it a close listen. I'll have to do that soon.

Didn't Young do that version too?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on May 02, 2011, 02:19:32 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 02, 2011, 01:49:31 PM
So have I!  Which purchase breaks my personal rule of not buying multiple versions, but the reviews were so enthusiastic, and I do like very much Nagano's conducting in Busoni's opera Doctor Faust.

And I just had a great time watching Nagano conducting in Wagner's Lohengrin. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Symphony #2
Post by: Cato on May 05, 2011, 06:10:13 PM
(http://cb.sacdstatic.com/l/43/4643/6094643.jpg)


16 out of 16 5-star reviews on Amazon have convinced me: I need to have the original 1872 version!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Second/1872 Original + How Things Change
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 06, 2011, 02:38:36 AM
Quote from: MishaK on May 02, 2011, 02:15:24 PM
Didn't Young do that version too?

She did, and in an amazing coincidence she takes exactly as long as Tintner: 71:22  :o


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Second/1872 Original + How Things Change
Post by: Scarpia on May 06, 2011, 07:06:41 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 06, 2011, 02:38:36 AM
She did, and in an amazing coincidence she takes exactly as long as Tintner: 71:22  :o

Notice the appearance of 22, 7 and 1 in the timing.  Clearly Bruckner intended this symphony to symbolize π since 22/(7x1) ≈ π.  This is obvious since two different recordings of the symphony came up to the same total time, which can't be a coincidence.  This is also solves the mystery of the dedication, since Bruckner dedicated it to Wagner, who he believe was the most perfect composer, and the circle is the only perfect geometrical figure, and π is derived from the circle.  Thank god that more than 100 year old mystery has finally been put to rest!   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Second/1872 Original + How Things Change
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 06, 2011, 07:25:30 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 06, 2011, 07:06:41 AM
Notice the appearance of 22, 7 and 1 in the timing.  Clearly Bruckner intended this symphony to symbolize π since 22/(7x1) ≈ π.  This is obvious since two different recordings of the symphony came up to the same total time, which can't be a coincidence.  This is also solves the mystery of the dedication, since Bruckner dedicated it to Wagner, who he believe was the most perfect composer, and the circle is the only perfect geometrical figure, and π is derived from the circle.  Thank god that more than 100 year old mystery has finally been put to rest!   0:)


This also explains why Bruckner nicknamed the Second, Das Mysterium   ;D

Sarge

P.S. Actually it's the Third that's dedicated to Wagner...but Bruckner did give him the choice between the Second and Third.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Second/1872 Original + How Things Change
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2011, 08:44:38 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 06, 2011, 07:25:30 AM

This also explains why Bruckner nicknamed the Second, Das Mysterium   ;D

Sarge

P.S. Actually it's the Third that's dedicated to Wagner...but Bruckner did give him the choice between the Second and Third.

Sarge


Wagner was never one to eat humble Pi (as I wrote elsewhere...).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Symphony #2
Post by: DavidW on May 06, 2011, 09:20:13 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 05, 2011, 06:10:13 PM
(http://cb.sacdstatic.com/l/43/4643/6094643.jpg)


16 out of 16 5-star reviews on Amazon have convinced me: I need to have the original 1872 version!

Just wanted to say that is a good recording.  My favorite of the Tintner ones I've heard.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on May 08, 2011, 03:35:13 PM
Also

W=23
A = 1
G = 7

N =14
E = 5
R =18

23(W) - 1(A) = 22, over 7 (G), = Pi

...then 14(N) + 5(E) = 19 - we got that by adding two numbers, so we add 2, plus 1 for 18(R),
and this result is over 18(R) - take the 1 from the 8 to get 7, and again we get ... 22/7


OPEN YOUR EYES, PEOPLE!!!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey" Original Version - Third Symphony - Nagano
Post by: Cato on May 08, 2011, 04:24:43 PM
Okay, I have heard the Nagano CD 5 times now.

(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/2007-11-21/Cover_Front_XHMW.jpg)

The main reason was that my brain, after hearing Jochum's recording of the Leopold Nowak revised version, kept telling me that a great many things were wrong!   :o

After the third hearing, I was able to assure myself that I was now in neutral mode!   0:)

Without the score of this version, it is impossible to detail things specifically: missing 4-note ornaments from certain lines, certain themes hold notes longer than in the revised version, etc.

Certainly there are some great things here which Bruckner excised, and I did not find the Wagnerian aromas in the slow movement intrusive or unidiomatic, especially since Bruckner also quotes his own Second Symphony, as if he is creating a fusion of Bruckner-a la-Wagner-a la-Bruckner.

So yes, quite a recording!  I still give the edge to the Nowak edition of the revised version of 1888/89, but this version has some fine moments.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Second Symphony Original Version
Post by: Cato on May 12, 2011, 08:53:01 AM
So, much like with the Third Symphony, my ears had to be re-formed, so that I could accept what I was hearing with a neutral mind, rather than having my mind insist that things were wrong.

To be sure, perhaps because of my previous exercise with the Third, I found this easier.

The CD was the NAXOS Georg Tintner performance with the Irish National Symphony.

And yes, hearing this was a marvelous experience: there are a good number of things, in the Finale especially, which are most attractive, and which are (obviously) missing in the later revisions.  The liner notes in German (by a certain Teresa Raphael) remark that this original version shows how Bruckner attained "an epic breadth" in this music.

I can agree, but would add that all the symphonies attain an epic breadth to my ear, even the First Symphony.  Certainly the later ones can be considered more deeply epic because of their greater musical adventures.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on May 12, 2011, 05:32:56 PM
I'm afraid I generally find Tinter a bore (0 and 00 excepted). It'll take a different conductor to convince me of the merits of the earlier versions.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on May 13, 2011, 05:33:19 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 12, 2011, 05:32:56 PM
I'm afraid I generally find Tinter a bore

At least as far as Bruckner is concerned, I totally agree.  Even Snorrington's Bruckner is more exciting than Tintner's.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 13, 2011, 03:32:04 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 12, 2011, 05:32:56 PM
I'm afraid I generally find Tintner a bore (0 and 00 excepted). It'll take a different conductor to convince me of the merits of the earlier versions.

Perhaps a local library has this CD, so that you can see if it will change your mind.  I at least find it convincing.  To be sure, if Eugen Jochum    0:)   had conducted the Urfassung, perhaps it would have been even more convincing. 

Still, I was not bored by any means!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 13, 2011, 11:14:56 PM
Neither was I. I found the Tintner Third terrific.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on May 15, 2011, 05:43:44 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 13, 2011, 03:32:04 PM
Perhaps a local library has this CD, so that you can see if it will change your mind.

I do have the box set.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on May 15, 2011, 06:05:50 PM
I thought I would pop in to my favourite composers Abbey here to display this:

[asin]B00021T5SU[/asin]

This is a great disc.  There is quite a difference between this 1874 version and the later revised and third-party revised versions.  The 1874 version has many critics, who think it is much more crude than the later revisionns and I can see where they are coming from.  The 1874 is wild and wooly, Bruckner lets himself go on a gigantic exploration of Symphonic sound. 
Its the difference between a massive cake with crazy icing made for personal munching (1874) - and a perfectly rounded tasty cake for consumption by the 'proper' people (revisions.)  Well, I can have my cake and eat it  -  in this case, Inbals cooking of the original cake is the one I prefer to eat, regardless of its ... er ...wildness and uncertain preparation.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on May 24, 2011, 11:08:32 AM
Giulini, the Ninth, Chicago . . . what's the consensus?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2011, 11:17:33 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 24, 2011, 11:08:32 AM
Giulini, the Ninth, Chicago . . . what's the consensus?

I'm not sure there is one. His Vienna Ninth, though, is considered by many to be the best Ninth period. I do anyway.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on May 24, 2011, 11:20:27 AM
There's a 4-disc EMI box of Kid Giulini with the CSO, and there's the Bruckner Ninth in the midst, Sarge.  Offhand, sounds like a fair risk::reward profile . . . .

[asin]B0001ZMBV0[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2011, 11:24:22 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 24, 2011, 11:20:27 AM
There's a 4-disc EMI box of Kid Giulini with the CSO, and there's the Bruckner Ninth in the midst, Sarge.  Offhand, sounds like a fair risk::reward profile . . . .

I agree.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on May 25, 2011, 12:04:54 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2011, 11:24:22 AM
I agree.

I don't  :P  Giulini bores me. Slow ≠ profound.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on May 25, 2011, 03:03:12 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 25, 2011, 12:04:54 AM
I don't  :P  Giulini bores me. Slow ≠ profound.

Giulini's Chicago recording clocks in at 62:43, nearly 6 minutes faster than the VPO recording.







Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on May 25, 2011, 03:09:15 AM
Well, so far as I am concerned, Sarge's enthusiasm for a conductor/work combination is recommendation enough.

And no artillerie lourde was involved!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on May 25, 2011, 03:50:40 AM

I just got whole stack of Bruckner SACDs with Blomstedt and the Leipzig Gewandhaus put in my hand (Querstand label). Anyone already have any experience with / opinions about them?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on June 02, 2011, 05:15:24 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 24, 2011, 11:20:27 AM
There's a 4-disc EMI box of Kid Giulini with the CSO, and there's the Bruckner Ninth in the midst, Sarge.  Offhand, sounds like a fair risk::reward profile . . . .

[asin]B0001ZMBV0[/asin]

Well, this was my first go with the Bruckner Ninth, and it likes me well.  Will listen to this one again . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Herman on June 02, 2011, 07:26:46 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 25, 2011, 12:04:54 AM
I don't  :P  Giulini bores me. Slow ≠ profound.

that may be true in many cases, but Giulini's late-career Vienna recordings are very very good.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 02, 2011, 08:41:51 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 02, 2011, 05:15:24 AM
Well, this was my first go with the Bruckner Ninth, and it likes me well.  Will listen to this one again . . . .

Great!

Karl's musical subconscious is preparing itself for the composition of his First Symphony!  An American Bruckner for the 21st century!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on June 20, 2011, 05:15:52 PM
Enjoying Bruckner's late symphonies, is like enjoying the beauty of a woman's body.

If your a 'breast man', you might prefer Bruckner's top-heavy 7th.
If your a 'butt and hips guy', you might prefer Bruckner's bottom-heavy 8th.
If it's the hour glass figure you are after, Bruckner's 9th.

Then again, if you love the thin, pixie, anorexic types.....well...there is always Prokofiev's Classical Symphony.   ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on June 20, 2011, 05:21:22 PM
Now, wait a minute, fella!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on June 20, 2011, 05:24:06 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 20, 2011, 05:21:22 PM
Now, wait a minute, fella!

That being said, I do love Prokofiev's Symphony No. 1.  Just not the comparative woman's shape.   8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2011, 05:28:19 PM
Quote from: JetsNut on June 20, 2011, 05:15:52 PM
Then again, if you love the thin, pixie, anorexic types.....well...there is always Prokofiev's Classical Symphony.   ;D

Couldn't this be said of Bruckner's 6th. I read somewhere it was referred to as "Bruckner-lite." :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on June 20, 2011, 05:30:02 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2011, 05:28:19 PM
Couldn't this be said of Bruckner's 6th. I read somewhere it was referred to as "Bruckner-lite." :)

I was actually thinking of mentioning the relatively unimpressive B6, but then I'd be swarmed by all the Bruckner Nuts who think it is the greatest symphony ever composed.   ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2011, 05:36:24 PM
Quote from: JetsNut on June 20, 2011, 05:30:02 PM
I was actually thinking of mentioning the relatively unimpressive B6, but then I'd be swarmed by all the Bruckner Nuts who think it is the greatest symphony ever composed.   ::)

Well I'm a Brucknerian and I love this symphony, but you have every right to dislike it if that's what you ultimately choose or have chosen to do. I think when I first heard this symphony it just clicked with me right away. That Adagio lured me in while that short Scherzo third movement really made my head spin with all of those interesting rhythms.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on June 20, 2011, 05:39:38 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2011, 05:36:24 PM
Well I'm a Brucknerian and I love this symphony, but you have every right to dislike it if that's what you ultimately choose or have chosen to do. I think when I first heard this symphony it just clicked with me right away. That Adagio lured me in while that short Scherzo third movement really made my head spin with all of those interesting rhythms.

Well, I don't hate it.  I just don't think it is anywhere close to the greatness of the 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th and 9th....and the 3rd for that matter.  Just my own personal taste.   :)  I'm sure I'll appreciate it more in time.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2011, 05:48:06 PM
Quote from: JetsNut on June 20, 2011, 05:39:38 PM
Well, I don't hate it.  I just don't think it is anywhere close to the greatness of the 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th and 9th....and the 3rd for that matter.  Just my own personal taste.   :)  I'm sure I'll appreciate it more in time.

Perhaps it will click for you one day and if it doesn't, then that's perfectly fine too. I've been thinking a lot lately about how I have wasted many hours on music I don't even like, but, now, in retrospect, sometimes it's better to have tried something than to not have at all. I like Bruckner's 6th more than his 7th and his 9th better than his 8th and his 5th better than his 4th, but all of these symphonies are incredible in their own right and offer the listener something different. I'm a rather unconventional Brucknerian anyway, especially in my preferences for Wand, Chailly, and Giulini than to Jochum and Karajan.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on June 20, 2011, 06:13:18 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2011, 05:48:06 PM
Perhaps it will click for you one day and if it doesn't, then that's perfectly fine too. I've been thinking a lot lately about how I have wasted many hours on music I don't even like, but, now, in retrospect, sometimes it's better to have tried something than to not have at all. I like Bruckner's 6th more than his 7th and his 9th better than his 8th and his 5th better than his 4th, but all of these symphonies are incredible in their own right and offer the listener something different. I'm a rather unconventional Brucknerian anyway, especially in my preferences for Wand, Chailly, and Giulini than to Jochum and Karajan.

I am not too keen on the 6th because to me it unquestionably it, along with the 5th, stakes Bruckner's claim to being the father of the motion picture score.   There is one passage in the 6th which sounds as if it came straight of the score of Lawrence of Arabia.  (That maybe Colin Davis's fault--it was his recording on LSO Live which was my introduction to the 6th.) One reason I like the Jochum recordings it because the resemblance is much more muted.   Of course, although this may sound a little strange in light of the above, the 5th is my favorite Bruckner, closely followed by the 7th and 9th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on June 20, 2011, 06:34:45 PM
Quote from: JetsNut on June 20, 2011, 05:30:02 PM
I was actually thinking of mentioning the relatively unimpressive B6, but then I'd be swarmed by all the Bruckner Nuts who think it is the greatest symphony ever composed.   ::)

You should try Haitink's recording, he has command of both the nuances and the overall structure.  Highly rewarding performance. :)

[asin]B000LC4Y1S[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2011, 06:43:54 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on June 20, 2011, 06:13:18 PM
I am not too keen on the 6th because to me it unquestionably it, along with the 5th, stakes Bruckner's claim to being the father of the motion picture score.   There is one passage in the 6th which sounds as if it came straight of the score of Lawrence of Arabia.  (That maybe Colin Davis's fault--it was his recording on LSO Live which was my introduction to the 6th.) One reason I like the Jochum recordings it because the resemblance is much more muted.   Of course, although this may sound a little strange in light of the above, the 5th is my favorite Bruckner, closely followed by the 7th and 9th.

Hogwash. I disagree. Like I said, people view the 6th as a slight work compared to his more heavy blockbusters like 7-9, but, I honestly like this symphony and the overall mood of the work.

As Dave points out, the Haitink/Dresden recording on Profil is excellent.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on June 20, 2011, 07:26:54 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2011, 06:43:54 PM
Hogwash. I disagree. Like I said, people view the 6th as a slight work compared to his more heavy blockbusters like 7-9, but, I honestly like this symphony and the overall mood of the work.

As Dave points out, the Haitink/Dresden recording on Profil is excellent.

Well, as I said, it might be the fault of Colin Davis, since that's how I was introduced to the 6th.  The resemblance to film scores is much less noticeable and the Lawrence of Arabia moment much more muted,  in Jochum.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2011, 07:39:20 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on June 20, 2011, 07:26:54 PM
Well, as I said, it might be the fault of Colin Davis, since that's how I was introduced to the 6th.  The resemblance to film scores is much less noticeable and the Lawrence of Arabia moment much more muted,  in Jochum.

Colin Davis couldn't conduct a decent Bruckner performance to save his life! :D The guy has no ear for Bruckner. He made two horrible Bruckner recordings on the LSO Live label (the 6th and 9th) not too long ago and they seemed like a joke to me at the time and still do. To all Bruckner fans reading this: STAY AWAY FROM COLIN DAVIS!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on June 20, 2011, 08:01:09 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2011, 07:39:20 PM
Colin Davis couldn't conduct a decent Bruckner performance to save his life! :D The guy has no ear for Bruckner. He made two horrible Bruckner recordings on the LSO Live label (the 6th and 9th) not too long ago and they seemed like a joke to me at the time and still do. To all Bruckner fans reading this: STAY AWAY FROM COLIN DAVIS!

Indeed!  That's the one I was referring to.   And I also have the 9th.  Not as bad, but could be much better.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2011, 08:07:36 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on June 20, 2011, 08:01:09 PM
Indeed!  That's the one I was referring to.   And I also have the 9th.  Not as bad, but could be much better.

There are only a few things Colin Davis is useful for, in my opinion, Berlioz, Tippett, Elgar, and Sibelius (which I many problems with all of his Sibelius readings -- the LSO cycle being the better cycle of the three). I know, I know, I'm being pretty harsh, but the guy just irritates the living daylights out of me. He's always so careful with his conducting like it's a sin to let an orchestra cut loose and rip into the music. ???
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on June 21, 2011, 03:12:55 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 20, 2011, 06:34:45 PM
You should try Haitink's recording, he has command of both the nuances and the overall structure.  Highly rewarding performance. :)


Seconded.

Bruckner, Symphony No. 6, Bernard Haitink
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=121 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=121)

I have no problem that someone doesn't find the 6th to reach the same heights of the 8th, 9th, 5th, or even 7th or 4th. Perhaps one gets so used to expecting 'heavy Bruckner', that the 6th doesn't fulfill those conditioned expectations. But it's a marvelous work even if it isn't your favorite Bruckner.

I might rank the 8th higher, as a musical 'experience', but I love, love the 6th and definitely prefer it over the 4th and 7th... and 9th, to be honest, even if I apply a different measure to enjoyment from the Ninth. Just as I apply a different measure of enjoyment-expectation to a Rossini Overture as opposed to a Bartok Quartet.

My favorite 6ths are (at least off the top of my head) Celibidache, Haitink, and Wand-Cologne.



Off topic, but appropriate for the general topic:

Edit: link(s) fixed

There is only one complete (well, the 8.75 symphonies One through Nine in any case) Bruckner cycle from Wand, and that's Cologne.

There are four incomplete cycles:

NDR - 1 (live @ Musikhalle Hamburg)
3 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003FCD/goodmusicguide-20), 4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E6N0/goodmusicguide-20), 5 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E6LB/goodmusicguide-20), 6 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003G1N/goodmusicguide-20), 7 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E6PD/goodmusicguide-20), 8 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003FTQ/goodmusicguide-20), 9 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003FQ2/goodmusicguide-20)

The late 90s autumn's autumn cycle from Berlin (Philharmonic), with one of the greatest 8th ever put on record... includes
4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000247D1/goodmusicguide-20), 5 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003G38/goodmusicguide-20), 7 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004YMJ0/goodmusicguide-20), 8 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q66Y/goodmusicguide-20), 9 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002VYE0E/goodmusicguide-20)

Munich (Philarmonic)
4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000KCI9VA/goodmusicguide-20), 5 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FVQUX0/goodmusicguide-20), 6 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0018RR282/goodmusicguide-20), 8 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FGGKL2/goodmusicguide-20), 9 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002WP015K/goodmusicguide-20)

Schleswig Holstein / NDR 2000/2001 (DVD)
4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000F6YWYE/goodmusicguide-20), 5 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000BK53M4/goodmusicguide-20), 6 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CEV63O/goodmusicguide-20), 7 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000IY06AC/goodmusicguide-20), 8 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CEV63Y/goodmusicguide-20), 9 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CEV648/goodmusicguide-20)

+ Luebeck / NDR:
8 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E6LD/goodmusicguide-20) , 9 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E6LE/goodmusicguide-20)
That 8th is a famous, great, reverberant recording/performance... but I prefer Berlin

In addition to that, there's a "last recording" 4th  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063BYT/goodmusicguide-20) with the NDR which may (or may not) be different from the one on TDK (I think it is; very broad, beautiful reading coupled with the best Schubert 5th I've ever heard), and several Ninths... in and out of print... from Stuttgart (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009SQCBY/goodmusicguide-20), Japan... 5 & 9 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003NB99GE/goodmusicguide-20) with the DSO-Berlin (also in the box set) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002QEXC9Y/goodmusicguide-20), and I think the early Cologne 5th (EMI-DHM, back when they were partners) is not the Cologne 5th in the set... but I don't have the former at hand to compare/check recording dates. As mentioned, there's an old 8th (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009JO21K/goodmusicguide-20) with Guerzenich on Scribendum.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on June 21, 2011, 03:43:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2011, 08:07:36 PM
There are only a few things Colin Davis is useful for, in my opinion, Berlioz, Tippett, Elgar, and Sibelius (which I many problems with all of his Sibelius readings -- the LSO cycle being the better cycle of the three). I know, I know, I'm being pretty harsh, but the guy just irritates the living daylights out of me. He's always so careful with his conducting like it's a sin to let an orchestra cut loose and rip into the music. ???
You should have seen his Janacek Glagolitic Mass with the LSO here last October. He let the musicians cut loose too much - the "Svet" movement just spun completely out of control. Disappointed me. :(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 21, 2011, 04:06:44 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on June 20, 2011, 06:13:18 PM
I am not too keen on the 6th because to me it unquestionably it, along with the 5th, stakes Bruckner's claim to being the father of the motion picture score.   There is one passage in the 6th which sounds as if it came straight of the score of Lawrence of Arabia.

Thank you. Whenever I bring that up on classical forums I'm shot down  ;D ....but we're right: the main theme of the first movement does sound like Maurice Jarre was familiar with it when he began composing Lawrence of Arabia. I don't understand your reaction though. That film composers "borrow" (intentionally or not) from classical composers doesn't degrade the classics but elevates the popular medium. Rather than turn me off, the cinematic sweep of the Sixth's first movement is what attracted me in the first place. I love that theme--both the symphony's and the film's.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 21, 2011, 04:10:01 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2011, 08:07:36 PM
There are only a few things Colin Davis is useful for, in my opinion, Berlioz, Tippett, Elgar, and Sibelius....

And Haydn...he's a marvelous conductor of Haydn (and Mozart, Beethoven too, actually). Love his Dvorak also.


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on June 21, 2011, 04:12:27 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 21, 2011, 04:06:44 AM
Thank you. Whenever I bring that up on classical forums I'm shot down  ;D ....but we're right: the main theme of the first movement does sound like Maurice Jarre was familiar with it when he began composing Lawrence of Arabia. I don't understand your reaction though. That film composers "borrow" (intentionally or not) from classical composers doesn't degrade the classics but elevates the popular medium.

Yes. As you know, too, Sarge, one comes across much the same prejudice against Rakmaninov at times . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on June 21, 2011, 04:35:30 AM
BTW, Ray has done my wallet harm this day ; )
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on June 21, 2011, 05:23:04 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 21, 2011, 04:35:30 AM
BTW, Ray has done my wallet harm this day ; )

No problem Karl, the pleasure is all mine.  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on June 21, 2011, 06:04:18 AM
Oh, and I didn't mean to sound ungrateful : )
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 21, 2011, 08:47:58 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 21, 2011, 03:43:31 AM
You should have seen his Janacek Glagolitic Mass with the LSO here last October. He let the musicians cut loose too much - the "Svet" movement just spun completely out of control. Disappointed me. :(

Davis isn't a noted Janacek conductor anyway, so I wouldn't have saw that show, but I can only imagine how much of a travesty that performance was.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 22, 2011, 09:29:43 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 21, 2011, 04:06:44 AM
Thank you. Whenever I bring that up on classical forums I'm shot down  ;D ....but we're right: the main theme of the first movement does sound like Maurice Jarre was familiar with it when he began composing Lawrence of Arabia.

Mild correction: the main theme as it is modified in the coda sounds like LoA. In its original iteration it's not quite as close.  ;)

I agree with you. It doesn't lower the original that someone else may have been inspired by it. I still love the 6th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on June 24, 2011, 02:41:22 AM
My Wand set is en route!

QuoteDelivery Estimate: July 18, 2011 - July 29, 2011

This shipment will be delivered by Royal Mail.

I'll look for the postman in the special livery, then!

Time to exercise yet more of the virtue of Patience.


I could imagine listening to Bruckner on my mp3 player . . . a fantastic thought, which I could never have had ere this year.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on June 24, 2011, 06:28:03 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 24, 2011, 02:41:22 AM
My Wand set is en route!

I'll look for the postman in the special livery, then!

Time to exercise yet more of the virtue of Patience.


I could imagine listening to Bruckner on my mp3 player . . . a fantastic thought, which I could never have had ere this year.

At least you are not Canadian, Karl.  Our postal strike is still on going, and it is now nationwide and has been for well over a week now.   :(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on June 24, 2011, 06:29:55 AM
Could be worse. The trash collectors could be on strike nationwide . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on June 24, 2011, 06:32:31 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 24, 2011, 06:29:55 AM
Could be worse. The trash collectors could be on strike nationwide . . . .

That happened a few years back (not nationwide), but in the city of Toronto.  Apparently, the smell was absolutely horrendous, the whole city stank.  :D

Is there anyone from GMG who lives in Toronto, and can testify to this?

Sorry, blessed and beloved Anton, to trash and desecrate your Abbey with all this trash talk.   :-[
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on June 24, 2011, 06:43:00 AM
I'm happy to report that Bruckner's Abbey is the 3rd highest posted on thread in the Composer Discussion section, behind only Mahler Mania Rebooted and Vaughan Williams Veranda.

Technically, Bruckner is in 4th spot, but I don't count the long ago locked up Elgar thread, that was probably 70% flame wars verses true musical discussion.   ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on June 24, 2011, 06:44:11 AM
Quote from: JetsNut on June 24, 2011, 06:43:00 AM
I'm happy to report that Bruckner's Abbey is the 3rd highest posted on thread in the Composer Discussion section, behind only Mahler Mania Rebooted and Vaughan Williams Veranda.

And if the Mahler thread hadn't wanted rebooting (after a notorious Elgar-centric thread highjack) . . . Gustav would be A Monster!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on June 24, 2011, 06:46:52 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 24, 2011, 06:44:11 AM
And if the Mahler thread hadn't wanted rebooting (after a notorious Elgar-centric thread highjack) . . . Gustav would be A Monster!

The Vaughan Williams Veranda has had a lot of controversial conversations regarding the use of Wind Machines......just sayin'.   8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on June 24, 2011, 06:50:27 AM
If only he'd made employ of the wind machine . . . Bruckner could have taken over the world!

I think I'll listen to one of the Masses this morning . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on June 24, 2011, 06:54:03 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 24, 2011, 06:50:27 AM
If only he'd made employ of the wind machine . . . Bruckner could have taken over the world!

I think I'll listen to one of the Masses this morning . . . .


Hey Karl, I listened to the F minor one yesterday.  Sublime!!  One of my favorite, non-requiem masses.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on June 24, 2011, 08:02:58 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 24, 2011, 07:55:14 AM
I have been so moved lately by Bruckner's choir pieces, I have some motets that are included in the Gardiner/WP Mass no.1 disc, do you recommend any particular recording of his motets?

Edit: Sorry, this should probably be under another thread.


This EMI two-fer I have includes the Masses nos. 2 (e minor) & 3 (f minor), the Te Deum & five motets:

[asin]B0000CE7FN[/asin]

The motets are sung by the New Philharmonia Chorus, directed by Wilhelm Pitz.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on June 24, 2011, 08:09:02 AM
Quote from: JetsNut on June 24, 2011, 06:28:03 AM
At least you are not Canadian, Karl.  Our postal strike is still on going, and it is now nationwide and has been for well over a week now.   :(

If it makes you feel any better I've been waiting for a Suzuki Bach set for as long now thanks to that strike and then lock-out.  I feel bad for y'all up there.  Some businesses are losing alot of money just due to customer payments not being received... because they were mailed. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 24, 2011, 08:15:39 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 24, 2011, 08:02:58 AM
This EMI two-fer I have includes the Masses nos. 2 (e minor) & 3 (f minor), the Te Deum & five motets:

[asin]B0000CE7FN[/asin]

The motets are sung by the New Philharmonia Chorus, directed by Wilhelm Pitz.

Thanks for the response, Karl...and the move to the Abbey.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on June 24, 2011, 08:27:19 AM
I also like that set that Karl mentioned, great music, excellent performances. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on June 24, 2011, 03:12:17 PM
Quote from: JetsNut on June 24, 2011, 06:32:31 AM
That happened a few years back (not nationwide), but in the city of Toronto.  Apparently, the smell was absolutely horrendous, the whole city stank.  :D

Is there anyone from GMG who lives in Toronto, and can testify to this?

Sorry, blessed and beloved Anton, to trash and desecrate your Abbey with all this trash talk.   :-[
Honestly, the reports of that were grossly exaggerated. There were some parts of town that weren't too pleasant (the ones near the temporary trash depots that the city opened up, but they were certainly very much in the minority).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on June 25, 2011, 05:55:16 AM
Quote from: edward on June 24, 2011, 03:12:17 PM
Honestly, the reports of that were grossly exaggerated. There were some parts of town that weren't too pleasant (the ones near the temporary trash depots that the city opened up, but they were certainly very much in the minority).

Thanks for clarifying this Edward.  I seemed to remember you mentioning you lived in Toronto.  Well, not surprising that the reports were grossly exaggerated, after all, that IS the media's job, eh?   :D 8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on June 25, 2011, 10:11:28 AM
Glad to hear that you were takin' care of business, Edward! : )
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on June 26, 2011, 08:37:32 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 20, 2011, 07:26:54 PM
Well, as I said, it might be the fault of Colin Davis, since that's how I was introduced to the 6th.  The resemblance to film scores is much less noticeable and the Lawrence of Arabia moment much more muted,  in Jochum.

James? Is that you?


MI, I'm not much of a Colin Davis fan, but I like his old Mozart recordings. Very energetic, verging on aggressive, but sometimes Mozart needs the sugar kicked out of him.

Karl, I have that Barenboim-led choral set, I like the Te Deum but the Masses are a bit... bitty. I have a CD from the Hyperion cycle and prefer that, although the English choir lacks... mass.

... Hmmm.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 26, 2011, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on June 26, 2011, 08:37:32 PMMI, I'm not much of a Colin Davis fan, but I like his old Mozart recordings. Very energetic, verging on aggressive, but sometimes Mozart needs the sugar kicked out of him.

I'm not either but his Berlioz recordings are excellent.

Anyway...back to Bruckner! :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 27, 2011, 04:26:43 AM
Just picked up my first Tintner/Bruckner disc...

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/74/1e/3c67124128a059beeebc9010.L.jpg)

...bought it mainly to get a recording of the original version of the 3rd and it's large 30 minute first movement! I think it's a good recording and am enjoying it quite a bit. It's amazing to hear the differences between Bruckner's versions, this is my first listen to the original 3rd, although I've always admired the Karajan/BP on DG disc of the 3rd.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on June 27, 2011, 06:54:44 AM
Funny you say that Greg, I'm finally listening to Nagano's 3rd this morning. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 27, 2011, 06:57:50 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 27, 2011, 06:54:44 AM
Funny you say that Greg, I'm finally listening to Nagano's 3rd this morning. :)

Happy 3rd, David!!  ;D

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2011, 09:19:01 AM
I listened to Wand and Karajan's Thirds yesterday. Wand, the master of symphonic architecture, gives the most seamless account I've ever heard. The transitions are perfectly integrated, making a perfect whole (never thought I'd say that about the imperfect Third!). I like the clarity of the recording too. Unfortunately that clarity tends to highlight some of the cruder elements. The orchestra sounds like a Trabi next to the Berlin Mercedes. Wand is emotionally cool too (that's how it comes across to me anyway). I missed the tingle-factor Karajan delivers. Odd that...they are playing the same notes but Wand's Bruckner makes me think; Karajan's Bruckner makes me feel. In my Karajan/Wand playoffs, Karajan wins this one. Hearing it again after several years reminded me what a great performance it is; kin to his EMI Fourth.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on June 27, 2011, 09:32:50 AM
Thanks, Sarge - I look forward to more comparisons. I don't listen to Karajan's set very often, and can't make head of tails of which Wand is better or worse, so this kills two birds with one stone for me :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 27, 2011, 09:35:02 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2011, 09:19:01 AM
Odd that...they are playing the same notes but Wand's Bruckner makes me think; Karajan's Bruckner makes me feel.

Sarge

This is a familiar scenario with myself and Bruckner symphonies, it might take the third or fourth recording to really open my eyes, and fully understand the piece. But I find that challenge to be fascinating and deepens my respect for Bruckner as a composer, there is much more there than just notes, although that could be said for every composer, but not every composer can spark my emotions the way a Bruckner adagio can.
The 3rd's second movement is hauntingly beautiful.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2011, 09:35:57 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on June 27, 2011, 09:32:50 AM
Thanks, Sarge - I look forward to more comparisons. I don't listen to Karajan's set very often, and can't make head of tails of which Wand is better or worse, so this kills two birds with one stone for me :)

I just edited it...nothing radical just a little elaboration. Very little  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on June 27, 2011, 10:01:20 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 27, 2011, 04:26:43 AM
Just picked up my first Tintner/Bruckner disc...

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/74/1e/3c67124128a059beeebc9010.L.jpg)

...bought it mainly to get a recording of the original version of the 3rd and it's large 30 minute first movement! I think it's a good recording and am enjoying it quite a bit. It's amazing to hear the differences between Bruckner's versions, this is my first listen to the original 3rd, although I've always admired the Karajan/BP on DG disc of the 3rd.

Which of course raises another complication--which version are you hearing? Especially on older recordings.

I think the Tintner is a fine recording, btw.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 27, 2011, 10:10:29 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 27, 2011, 10:01:20 AM
Which of course raises another complication--which version are you hearing? Especially on older recordings.

I think the Tintner is a fine recording, btw.

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/51/b0/dae1e03ae7a0ad5559a1b110.L.jpg)

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/34/44/91e84310fca0e09a90182010.L.jpg)

I know the Sinopoli is the 1877 version, not sure about the Karajan (case is boxed up in a closet at the moment)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2011, 11:32:37 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 27, 2011, 10:10:29 AM
I know the Sinopoli is the 1877 version, not sure about the Karajan (case is boxed up in a closet at the moment)

Karajan is 1889, Nowak.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 29, 2011, 06:22:44 AM
Maybe a dumb question, but can't find a specific answer...

Are these all the same recording?


(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/05/cd/7b4d81b0c8a0bd6560c99110.L.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51py-aADo8L.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gNEpbzM1L._SS500_.jpg)

Thanks in advance for any comments ;D

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on June 29, 2011, 06:24:53 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 29, 2011, 06:22:44 AM
Maybe a dumb question, but can't find a specific answer...

Are these all the same recording?


(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/05/cd/7b4d81b0c8a0bd6560c99110.L.jpg)


For a split second, I thought that was a profile of Freddy Krueger.  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on June 29, 2011, 06:29:06 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 29, 2011, 06:22:44 AM
Maybe a dumb question, but can't find a specific answer...

Are these all the same recording?


(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/05/cd/7b4d81b0c8a0bd6560c99110.L.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51py-aADo8L.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gNEpbzM1L._SS500_.jpg)

Thanks in advance for any comments ;D

Yes, they are. (Incidentally my least favorite 5th... and if I correctly remember the only one of Bb's cycle [good 1st and superb 9th, I admit] that even Sarge doesn't find 100% defensible. Or I misremember, and he thinks it's one of the finest 5th.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 29, 2011, 06:31:20 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 29, 2011, 06:29:06 AM
Yes, they are. (Incidentally my least favorite 5th... and if I correctly remember the only one of Bb's cycle [good 1st and superb 9th, I admit] that even Sarge doesn't find 100% defensible. Or I misremember, and he thinks it's one of the finest 5th.)

Thank you! What is your favorite 5th recording?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2011, 06:52:58 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 29, 2011, 06:29:06 AM
Yes, they are. (Incidentally my least favorite 5th... and if I correctly remember the only one of Bb's cycle [good 1st and superb 9th, I admit] that even Sarge doesn't find 100% defensible. Or I misremember, and he thinks it's one of the finest 5th.)

Both are correct. I acknowledge faults in the sound. You're right about that. And it is one of my favorite Fifths although not one I generally recommend because it's mannered with Furtwänglerian quirks that will disturb some people. My top three: Celibidache for the epic approach; Dohnányi/Cleveland and Welser-Möst/LPO for the swift and dramatic.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 29, 2011, 06:58:23 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2011, 06:52:58 AM
Both are correct. I acknowledge faults in the sound. You're right about that. And it is one of my favorite Fifths although not one I generally recommend because it's mannered with Furtwänglerian quirks that will disturb some people. My top three: Celibidache for the epic approach; Dohnányi/Cleveland and Welser-Möst/LPO for the swift and dramatic.

Sarge

I like the Barenboim, not as a first choice, but the power of the finale is undeniable. The Dohnányi/Cleveland has always been a favorite of mine, such a clean and well-balanced sound, in fact I've always appreciated that from most of the Dohnányi/Cleveland recordings (their Ives 4th is a desert island pic) . I really want to checkout Celibidache, but can't find a copy that is not too pricey.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2011, 07:01:50 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 29, 2011, 06:58:23 AM
I like the Barenboim, not as a first choice, but the power of the finale is undeniable.

My feelings exactly.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on June 29, 2011, 07:29:31 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2011, 06:52:58 AM
. . . not one I generally recommend because it's mannered with Furtwänglerian quirks that will disturb some people.

I still get twitches late at night, sometimes, recalling an Eroica conducted by the Furtster . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2011, 07:31:52 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 29, 2011, 07:29:31 AM
I still get twitches late at night, sometimes, recalling an Eroica conducted by the Furtster . . . .

Yeah, it's hard to eradicate it once heard...medical science has not found a cure.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on June 29, 2011, 07:50:28 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 29, 2011, 06:31:20 AM
Thank you! What is your favorite 5th recording?

My favorite Fifth is -- like Sarge (we mostly agree, anyway) -- that of Celibidache (Munich). Slow-burn in perfection. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/bruckner-divine-and-beautiful.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/bruckner-divine-and-beautiful.html)

Thielemann is a similar, excellent, but ultimately lesser version: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/slow-food-for-ears-bruckners-5th-with.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/slow-food-for-ears-bruckners-5th-with.html)

Wand's Cologne Fifth is VERY different but also very good. Ditto Jochum / BRSO in the DG box set, though the sound isn't top-notch.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 29, 2011, 07:57:50 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 29, 2011, 07:50:28 AM
My favorite Fifth is -- like Sarge (we mostly agree, anyway) -- that of Celibidache (Munich). Slow-burn in perfection. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/bruckner-divine-and-beautiful.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/bruckner-divine-and-beautiful.html)

Thielemann is a similar, excellent, but ultimately lesser version: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/slow-food-for-ears-bruckners-5th-with.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/slow-food-for-ears-bruckners-5th-with.html)

Wand's Cologne Fifth is VERY different but also very good. Ditto Jochum / BRSO in the DG box set, though the sound isn't top-notch.


Great writings, thank you friend!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2011, 08:06:29 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 29, 2011, 07:57:50 AM

Great writings

I think so too. He's without a doubt my favorite critic...even when I disagree with him, which isn't often. On the downside, he's had a negative impact on my bank balance  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 29, 2011, 08:38:58 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 29, 2011, 06:58:23 AM
I like the Barenboim, not as a first choice, but the power of the finale is undeniable.

Thirded. I like the second movement, too. Then again, Furtwängler is my favorite 5th. Sinopoli my second choice.

Quote from: jlaurson on June 29, 2011, 07:50:28 AM
Wand's Cologne Fifth is VERY different but also very good.

Yes, but that one has the scratchiest playing of all of the performances in that Cologne set. Can't really make that one a top choice if looking for single recordings.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on June 29, 2011, 08:41:10 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2011, 09:19:01 AM
I listened to Wand and Karajan's Thirds yesterday. Wand, the master of symphonic architecture, gives the most seamless account I've ever heard. The transitions are perfectly integrated, making a perfect whole (never thought I'd say that about the imperfect Third!). I

Do you know this one?

[asin]B00000E3VM[/asin]

Epic! Fantastic performance. Leagues above Wand, IMHO.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 29, 2011, 08:51:23 AM
Celibidache first came to my knowledge years ago, when I was in Germany, through one of his acolytes, an older woman, who informed me that Sergiu was in der Tat the only conductor who deeply understood every note of any score!!!  She then lectured me about Sergiu's application of Zen Buddhism to his conducting, which harangue in the typical fashion of German pedants and fanatics began to sound like a death knell to me.   0:)

I was therefore not a little surprised when his recordings and his name began to spread beyond Bavaria.   8)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2011, 10:53:59 AM
Quote from: MishaK on June 29, 2011, 08:41:10 AM
Do you know this one?

[asin]B00000E3VM[/asin]

Epic! Fantastic performance. Leagues above Wand, IMHO.

I own it but it's been years since I last listened to it. I prefer both the original and the 1889 versions. My recordings of the 1877 don't get much play.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 30, 2011, 06:24:07 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2011, 08:06:29 AM
I think so too. He's without a doubt my favorite critic...even when I disagree with him, which isn't often. On the downside, he's had a negative impact on my bank balance  :D

Sarge

My sentiments too (he's indeed a great critic).

Although one is allowed - and, I would figure expected to find its own path in Bruckner appreciation, an informed thread of critical thinking is of great help (same in Wagner and Brahms IMHO, whereas such  'guidance' may prove a hindrance when it comes to Beethoven, Mahler and Verdi - geniuses that defy criticism and shit from a great height on the mere thought of 'criticism').

That being said, I not so respectfully disagree on most B5 choices here ;). Wand's NDR and Celibidache's Opning Night at the Gasteig (Munich) versions are among the top choices assuredly. But on the same footing I would definitely place the wildly diverging Gielen SWF and Klemperer NPO versions, the Suitner and van Beinum, some distance above and away from most contenders. Many others could be cited on the honor roll, but once one has 3-6 B5 versions of good pedigree, the others are best heard as good car trip fare.  Just kidding: whoever does this gigantic score justice is worthy of anyone's unbridled admiration (insert your own dozen preferred recordings here).

The 5th seems to be the work where the notion of 'Bruckner conducting' comes naught. It is by far his most 'constructed' work, therefore the most estranged from classical-romantic 'empfindung' - where sentiment rules within the sacro-sanct classical form (Schumann and Mendelssohn). Finding the correct pulse for all 4 very different movements - and the correct tempo relationship among them - is a matter of intuition, culture, or osmosis. In other words, it doesn't matter whether it's immensely solemn and slow (Celibidache), gaunt, slow and desolate  (Klemperer), medium-rare  and prodding (Wand NDR) or fast and 'kecht' (Suitner).

'Pulse' is everything. What  prevails is the conductor's ability to guide the listener from first to last note with the unfailing feeling that the work is unfolding before him/her. You can rush a 9th for gothic drama or an 8th for technicolor grandeur, you can slow a 4th for extra juice on the decibel-meter, or a 7th for parsifalesque solemnity, but you can't fake a 5th's inner life. It would annoy no end.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on June 30, 2011, 06:49:02 PM
Quote from: André on June 30, 2011, 06:24:07 PM
The 5th seems to be the work where the notion of 'Bruckner conducting' comes naught. It is by far his most 'constructed' work, therefore the most estranged from classical-romantic 'empfindung' - where sentiment rules within the sacro-sanct classical form (Schumann and Mendelssohn).

I agree with this, hence preferring Wand's placid strength to Karajan's heavy point-making here (K wasn't always needlessly heavy, and I haven't found a way to predict which works he'll perform masterfully and which he'll try to bully into submission).

Wikipedia says the 5th has at various times been subtitled the "Tragic," "Church of Faith," or "Pizzicato". Really the best word would be "classical".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 30, 2011, 08:54:10 PM
Quote from: André on June 30, 2011, 06:24:07 PM
My sentiments too (he's indeed a great critic).

Although one is allowed - and, I would figure expected to find its own path in Bruckner appreciation, an informed thread of critical thinking is of great help (same in Wagner and Brahms IMHO, whereas such  'guidance' may prove a hindrance when it comes to Beethoven, Mahler and Verdi - geniuses that defy criticism and shit from a great height on the mere thought of 'criticism').

That being said, I not so respectfully disagree on most B5 choices here ;). Wand's NDR and Celibidache's Opning Night at the Gasteig (Munich) versions are among the top choices assuredly. But on the same footing I would definitely place the wildly diverging Gielen SWF and Klemperer NPO versions, the Suitner and van Beinum, some distance above and away from most contenders. Many others could be cited on the honor roll, but once one has 3-6 B5 versions of good pedigree, the others are best heard as good car trip fare.  Just kidding: whoever does this gigantic score justice is worthy of anyone's unbridled admiration (insert your own dozen preferred recordings here).

The 5th seems to be the work where the notion of 'Bruckner conducting' comes naught. It is by far his most 'constructed' work, therefore the most estranged from classical-romantic 'empfindung' - where sentiment rules within the sacro-sanct classical form (Schumann and Mendelssohn). Finding the correct pulse for all 4 very different movements - and the correct tempo relationship among them - is a matter of intuition, culture, or osmosis. In other words, it doesn't matter whether it's immensely solemn and slow (Celibidache), gaunt, slow and desolate  (Klemperer), medium-rare  and prodding (Wand NDR) or fast and 'kecht' (Suitner).

'Pulse' is everything. What  prevails is the conductor's ability to guide the listener from first to last note with the unfailing feeling that the work is unfolding before him/her. You can rush a 9th for gothic drama or an 8th for technicolor grandeur, you can slow a 4th for extra juice on the decibel-meter, or a 7th for parsifalesque solemnity, but you can't fake a 5th's inner life. It would annoy no end.

Well said.  ;D

And on that note, earlier today I just ordered...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61-4cYIGGfL._SS400_.jpg)

This will be recording number 4 for me, and even though I am very excited about the Celibidache, I have a feeling I will never want to stop exploring Bruckner's great 5th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 01, 2011, 08:26:38 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/8qFQY3Olty0
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 01, 2011, 08:39:18 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 01, 2011, 08:26:38 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/8qFQY3Olty0

Yes, you've got love that finale to the 8th. Earth-shattering power.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on July 01, 2011, 09:17:47 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 01, 2011, 08:39:18 AM
Yes, you've got love that finale to the 8th. Earth-shattering power.

Best coda in the business!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on July 01, 2011, 09:29:13 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 01, 2011, 09:17:47 AM
Best coda in the business!

*[laughing]*

You're right.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on July 01, 2011, 11:07:14 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2011, 10:53:59 AM
I own it but it's been years since I last listened to it. I prefer both the original and the 1889 versions. My recordings of the 1877 don't get much play.

I agree generally. But when it's performed like *that* I don't really care about the version.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on July 10, 2011, 08:54:17 AM

(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/nytlogo152x23.gif)
Still Searching For Bruckner's True Intentions --
On the Myth of Bruckner's "Original Versions"
(http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/arts/music/bruckners-music-which-versions-did-he-intend.html?_r=1&ref=music)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 10, 2011, 09:20:36 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 10, 2011, 08:54:17 AM
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/nytlogo152x23.gif)
Still Searching For Bruckner's True Intentions --
On the Myth of Bruckner's "Original Versions"
(http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/arts/music/bruckners-music-which-versions-did-he-intend.html?_r=1&ref=music)

Great read! Thanks for the posting.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 10, 2011, 09:28:14 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 10, 2011, 08:54:17 AM
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/nytlogo152x23.gif)
Still Searching For Bruckner's True Intentions --
On the Myth of Bruckner's "Original Versions"
(http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/arts/music/bruckners-music-which-versions-did-he-intend.html?_r=1&ref=music)

Ah...this makes me feel less guilty about preferring the late revisions  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on July 10, 2011, 09:53:05 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 10, 2011, 08:54:17 AM
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/nytlogo152x23.gif)
Still Searching For Bruckner’s True Intentions --
On the Myth of Bruckner's "Original Versions" (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/arts/music/bruckners-music-which-versions-did-he-intend.html?_r=1&ref=music)

Really awesome article, thanks for pointing it out.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on July 10, 2011, 06:13:06 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 10, 2011, 08:54:17 AM
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/nytlogo152x23.gif)
Still Searching For Bruckner's True Intentions --
On the Myth of Bruckner's "Original Versions"
(http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/arts/music/bruckners-music-which-versions-did-he-intend.html?_r=1&ref=music)

I was just reading about the Bruckner problem on Wikipedia a couple of days ago, so this is useful (and the Nazi angle is new). This seems to be one of those examples of uncritical groupthink to which the Classical world is sometimes prone. One misremembered statement is recalled as common wisdom, and finally undeniable dogma (Solti's alleged emulation of Elgar's performance of his 1st); or in this case one musicologist's whim becomes a piece of the true musical cross (see also Mahler's 6th). I don't mean to be negative; it's must what I've been thinking about lately. It is nice to think that Anton's later thoughts might finally be accepted as valid (though of course later thoughts, however authentic, won't be necessarily better).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 12, 2011, 04:00:43 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 10, 2011, 06:13:06 PM
I don't mean to be negative; it's must what I've been thinking about lately. It is nice to think that Anton's later thoughts might finally be accepted as valid (though of course later thoughts, however authentic, won't be necessarily better).

And there is the can of worms!  Wait a generation and see whether your "better" is also accepted or is suddenly sneered at!  (e.g. Deryk Cooke sneering at the revision by Bruckner mentioned in the NYT article.)

In any case, it is now time to find The New Bruckner by Dermot Gault!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rw1883 on July 13, 2011, 05:30:04 PM
"Bruckner in a New Light"

Another article about Bruckner from the Wall Street Journal:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303544604576434294097475616.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303544604576434294097475616.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 13, 2011, 05:37:35 PM
Quote from: rw1883 on July 13, 2011, 05:30:04 PM
"Bruckner in a New Light"

Another article about Bruckner from the Wall Street Journal:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303544604576434294097475616.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303544604576434294097475616.html)

An excerpt:

But this week's series of four concerts by the Cleveland Orchestra at the Lincoln Center Festival represents the first time Bruckner's music has been paired in depth with that of John Adams, one of America's supreme composers.

Wednesday's opening program juxtaposes Mr. Adams's Dantean "Guide to Strange Places" with Bruckner's brooding, tragic Symphony No. 5 in B-flat. On Thursday, the Adams Violin Concerto (with soloist Leila Josefowicz) will be followed by the 1883 edition of Bruckner's Symphony No. 7 in E (containing the composer's tribute to his recently deceased idol, Richard Wagner). The third concert, on Saturday, is consecrated to Bruckner's colossal and contemplative Symphony No. 8 in C-minor, in the richer, longer, less frequently performed original version of 1887. The fourth and final concert in the series, on Sunday, pairs Mr. Adams's "Doctor Atomic" Symphony, derived from his eponymous opera about the creation of the atomic bomb in 1945, with Bruckner's valedictory Symphony No. 9 in D-minor, its finale left unfinished at his death.

The programs were the idea of the orchestra's music director, the Austrian-born Franz Welser-Möst, who will be conducting them. Discussing the subject by phone, he says that "some years ago I was given a recording of 'Guide to Strange Places'—it may have been of the first performance. As I listened, immediately it struck me that there are so many similarities with Bruckner's music."

My emphasis above: I found that phrase ("brooding, tragic") rather odd for the Fifth Symphony.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JerryS on July 13, 2011, 08:11:32 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 13, 2011, 05:37:35 PM


My emphasis above: I found that phrase ("brooding, tragic") rather odd for the Fifth Symphony.

I agree that I wouldn't use that description for the 5th. However, I was looking through some Bruckner recordings on Amazon and found this:

[asin]B00000DMI3[/asin]

Amazon's listing of the recording details includes some names I've never heard associated with these symphonies.

3rd     "Wagner
4th    "Romantic"
5th    "Tragic";"Church of Faith";"Pizzicato"
7th    "Lyric"
8th    "Apocalyptic";"The German Michel"
9th    "Unfinished"

For the 3rd, 4th, 8th (Apocalyptic)  and 9th I've heard these nicknames before, but not the others.

I really appreciate the links to the articles. Very interesting reading!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on July 13, 2011, 08:53:29 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 13, 2011, 05:37:35 PM


The programs were the idea of the orchestra's music director, the Austrian-born Franz Welser-Möst, who will be conducting them. Discussing the subject by phone, he says that "some years ago I was given a recording of 'Guide to Strange Places'—it may have been of the first performance. As I listened, immediately it struck me that there are so many similarities with Bruckner's music."

My emphasis above: I found that phrase ("brooding, tragic") rather odd for the Fifth Symphony.

I too find that description strange.  There is very little in Bruckner's music that I would apply those words to.    Brooding perhaps in the sense of thoughtful or deeply thinking on a subject, but no melancholic associations--solemnity but little sadness. 

In the present context, there is a little irony involved for me, because my first, and for a long time, only, recording of the Fifth was the London Philharmonic conducted by.....Welser-Most.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on July 13, 2011, 10:04:25 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 13, 2011, 05:37:35 PM
My emphasis above: I found that phrase ("brooding, tragic") rather odd for the Fifth Symphony.

Likewise.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 14, 2011, 01:45:03 AM
Quote from: Cato on July 13, 2011, 05:37:35 PM
My emphasis above: I found that phrase ("brooding, tragic") rather odd for the Fifth Symphony.

He seems to have confused the Fifth with the Ninth.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on July 14, 2011, 05:06:24 AM
Quote from: vivolin on July 13, 2011, 08:11:32 PM

Amazon's listing of the recording details includes some names I've never heard associated with these symphonies.

3rd     "Wagner
4th    "Romantic"
5th    "Tragic";"Church of Faith";"Pizzicato"
7th    "Lyric"
8th    "Apocalyptic";"The German Michel"
9th    "Unfinished"



Some other nicknames associated vaguely to Bruckner's symphonies:

1st - The Saucy Maid
2nd - Symphony of Pauses
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on July 14, 2011, 05:22:14 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 14, 2011, 05:06:24 AM
Some other nicknames associated vaguely to Bruckner's symphonies:

1st - The Saucy Maid
2nd - Symphony of Pauses

The proper nickname for the Sixth might be "The Saucy One", actually... since Bruckner rhymed of it--in jolly mood, apparently--"Meine Sechste ist die Keckste".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on July 14, 2011, 05:26:41 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 14, 2011, 05:22:14 AM
The proper nickname for the Sixth might be "The Saucy One", actually... since Bruckner rhymed of it--in jolly mood, apparently--"Meine Sechste ist die Keckste".

I thought maybe the Bruckner 6th might be dubbed "The Greek Maiden between two Norse Gods".  :D

Oops, wrong composer and wrong symphonic trio.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 14, 2011, 02:08:38 PM
Was on a YouTube Bruckner marathon today, I'll share some of what I watched...


Love the tempo Wand uses for the first movement, very exciting...

http://www.youtube.com/v/m5rSdIc6mp8


http://www.youtube.com/v/mMQlsm_X0SY&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/v/ZvLST4hrmn0


Such heartbreakingly beautiful music...

http://www.youtube.com/v/Wfvk5QeQ2UQ&feature=related
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on August 03, 2011, 11:00:45 AM
Brucknerthon 2011 has been announced:

http://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/news/westcoastbruckner/
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 03, 2011, 11:10:54 AM
Was browsing the Berlin Phil. Digital Concert schedule, they are performing Bruckner's... "Symphony No. 9 in D minor in the performing edition of the 4th movement completed from the manuscripts by Samale-Phillips-Cohrs-Mazzuca (1985-2008/revised 2010)" on Thursday Feb. 9th, 2012


http://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/live
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on August 03, 2011, 01:39:59 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 03, 2011, 11:10:54 AM
Was browsing the Berlin Phil. Digital Concert schedule, they are performing Bruckner's... "Symphony No. 9 in D minor in the performing edition of the 4th movement completed from the manuscripts by Samale-Phillips-Cohrs-Mazzuca (1985-2008/revised 2010)" on Thursday Feb. 9th, 2012


http://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/live

Yeah, I may have to listen to that since it's the newest revision of the SPCM completion, even though I once heard Rattle/BPO do one of the most pointless 3-movement Bruckner 9s I've ever witnessed.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on August 03, 2011, 06:20:33 PM
Quote from: MishaK on August 03, 2011, 01:39:59 PM
Yeah, I may have to listen to that since it's the newest revision of the SPCM completion, even though I once heard Rattle/BPO do one of the most pointless 3-movement Bruckner 9s I've ever witnessed.

Hopefully this will be more on the level of his Mahler 10.

I notice the BPO is doing a lot of Berio and Elgar this year (plus Walton's 1st!).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2011, 05:09:53 AM
@TheGSMoeller That Wand Bruckner 4 is indeed terrific. I have known that movement for 35 years, but what extraordinary music!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2011, 07:21:34 AM
From: Havergal Brian, 'The Mahler Revival' (1930) in: Havergal Brian on Music, Volume Two: European and American Music, ed. Malcolm MacDonald, p. 83-85:


"Was there an absence of vitality in the music that caused the first impressions of the Bruckner and Mahler Symphonies to fade away so quickly? Such interest as remained from the pioneer performances has been kept alive by a few enthusiasts who possessed the scores. It is entirely a speculative question if the same repeated performances which followed the new works by Strauss had been given to Bruckner and Mahler, whether they would have just as quickly obtained a sympathetic and interested following as did Strauss. Supposing that the symphonic poems of Strauss and the symphonies of Tchaikovsky had met with the same indifference as those of Bruckner and Mahler, would there ever have been a public clamouring for them? A symphonic work cannot be thoroughly enjoyed or appreciated until it is really known. Intimate understanding is only gained by repeated hearing."


"We feel quite sanguine of the ultimate success of the Bruckner and Mahler symphonies."
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on August 04, 2011, 07:27:32 AM
Quote from: Havergal Brian
A symphonic work cannot be thoroughly enjoyed or appreciated until it is really known.

Well, I'm just puzzled at the apparent singling out of symphonic music here;  there's hardly a genre of music of which the same could not be said; and many symphonic works are more transparent to the listener than a great deal of the chamber repertory.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2011, 07:39:00 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 04, 2011, 07:27:32 AM
Well, I'm just puzzled at the apparent singling out of symphonic music here;  there's hardly a genre of music of which the same could not be said; and many symphonic works are more transparent to the listener than a great deal of the chamber repertory.


I agree that, e.g., chamber music demands as much (if not more) close attention. Brian shows his symphonic bias, perhaps...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: karlhenning on August 04, 2011, 09:12:59 AM
Aye, I suppose it must just be in the context of Brian's own focus . . . it may not really be the somewhat blinkered remark it appears on first blush.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on August 04, 2011, 05:51:07 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2011, 07:21:34 AM
"Intimate understanding is only gained by repeated hearing."

Of course, intimate understanding can lead to love, OR hate! ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 05, 2011, 08:10:56 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 04, 2011, 05:51:07 PM
Of course, intimate understanding can lead to love, OR hate! ;)


Yes, that's possible, too. German philosopher Th.W. Adorno didn't like Stravinsky, preferring the Second Viennese School, but still understood very well what made Igor tick. I think both the enthusiasts and the really violent detractors can teach us something about their object of love and hate.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on August 05, 2011, 08:17:17 AM
Since the beginning of 2011, I have listened to Bruckner's 7th Symphony 13 times.    :D

Perhaps good old Anton would be proud of my OCD.  8)

Well, that is still a lot less than Gurn's LVB 9th Sunday sermon.   ;)  Just sayin....
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on August 05, 2011, 08:23:22 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 05, 2011, 08:17:17 AM
Since the beginning of 2011, I have listened to Bruckner's 7th Symphony 13 times.    :D

Perhaps good old Anton would be proud of my OCD.  8)

Well, that is still a lot less than Gurn's LVB 9th Sunday sermon.   ;)  Just sayin....

Wow! Only twice for me, No 6 appears to be my 'flavor of the year.' :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 05, 2011, 08:25:37 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 05, 2011, 08:23:22 AM
Wow! Only twice for me, No 6 appears to be my 'flavor of the year.' :)

What's your 6th of choice, Brian?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on August 05, 2011, 08:30:12 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 05, 2011, 08:25:37 AM
What's your 6th of choice, Brian?

Easily Celibidache! I really, really, really did not want to join the Celi fan club, because it seemed like such a weird cultish enterprise, but Papy Oli convinced me to listen to Celi's Sixth on Spotify and, to quote the Monkees, "now I'm a believer."  ;D  The outer movements are so rhythmically solid and enormous-feeling - and he's the only guy who gets the slow movement to really make sense for me as a heartrending lyrical testament. With other ensembles it can sound like a bizarre half-baked interlude...

Caveat: the only other Sixths I've heard are Skrowaczewski, Maazel, and Jochum.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 05, 2011, 08:34:08 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 05, 2011, 08:30:12 AM
Easily Celibidache! I really, really, really did not want to join the Celi fan club, because it seemed like such a weird cultish enterprise, but Papy Oli convinced me to listen to Celi's Sixth on Spotify and, to quote the Monkees, "now I'm a believer."

Caveat: the only other Sixths I've heard are Skrowaczewski, Maazel, and Jochum.

I have Celibidache's 4th & 5th recordings, and I normally enjoy my Bruckner at a quicker tempo (Dohnanyi/Cleveland) but I was easily sold on Celibidache interpretations. His 5th is operatic, I was exhausted at the end, but so incredibly moved.
So on to Celibidache's 6th I go!

Thanks, Brian.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 05, 2011, 09:13:14 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 05, 2011, 08:30:12 AM
Caveat: the only other Sixths I've heard are Skrowaczewski, Maazel, and Jochum.


Which Jochum? With the Staatskapelle or with the Bavarians? With the Bavarians is my favourite. I got another Sixth recommendation, though, the other day - Horst Stein and the VPO... Does anyone know that interpretation?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on August 05, 2011, 09:18:54 AM
Hope you love the Celi 6th as much as I do, Greg!

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 05, 2011, 09:13:14 AM
Which Jochum? With the Staatskapelle or with the Bavarians? With the Bavarians is my favourite. I got another Sixth recommendation, though, the other day - Horst Stein and the VPO... Does anyone know that interpretation?

Staatskapelle. Is the Stein recording, erm, 'vintage'?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 05, 2011, 09:34:55 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 05, 2011, 09:18:54 AM
Hope you love the Celi 6th as much as I do, Greg!

Staatskapelle. Is the Stein recording, erm, 'vintage'?


From 1975, or thereabouts... Look here:


http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-Weber-Overtures/dp/B0007MR298 (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-Weber-Overtures/dp/B0007MR298)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on August 05, 2011, 09:44:56 AM
That Stein recording is super, it's a notable for me along with Klemperer, Furtwängler (incomplete), Celi, Eichhorn and Sawallisch (these last two may be seen as two "straight", but I like that). My favourite is Haitink/Dresden on Profil.

I'm sure there is one of Calaf's (I forget what his last name change was) neat lederhosen-Bruckner recs that I am forgetting. For a symphony that was supposedly misunderstood and neglected until recently, it sure has a lot of great recordings.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on August 05, 2011, 10:24:27 AM
Stein's 6th is from 1972, very fine Decca Sofiensaal recording. It's my favorite 6th.

Andre's (Calaf) preferences, to my knowledge, are very German: Bongartz, Keilberth and Leitner probably. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on August 05, 2011, 11:59:39 AM
Oh Leitner was excellent - I think on Testament or Hanssler or something? I always meant to check Bongartz, if only because of his hilarious name, but I don't think I ever did :(

I wish I could get as obsessed with Bruckner's other symphonies as I do with the 6th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on August 05, 2011, 12:08:00 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 03, 2011, 06:20:33 PM
Hopefully this will be more on the level of his Mahler 10.

Alas, comprehension of Mahler does not automatically translate into comprehension of Bruckner. I found his Bruckner 4 recording rather pointless as well, despite the beautiful horn playing.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 05, 2011, 12:13:34 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on August 05, 2011, 11:59:39 AM
Oh Leitner was excellent - I think on Testament or Hanssler or something?

Hänssler

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/bru6leitner.jpg)

A good Sixth (especially the last movement); great coupling.

My favorite, going on 4 decades now, is still Klemperer. Love Dohnányi/Cleveland, Stein/Vienna, Norrington/Stuttgart and Sawallisch too.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on August 05, 2011, 01:18:27 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 05, 2011, 12:13:34 PM
Hanssler

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/bru6leitner.jpg)

Whoa, what a great coupling. Sign me up.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on August 05, 2011, 01:28:22 PM
Test drove the following three Bruckner 7ths:

Giulini/WP - Had heard this one before, and really love it the first time (not as much the 2nd time) - (8.5/10)

Barenboim/CSO - Wicked, REALLY enjoyed it (9.5/10)

Nezet-Seguin/Orchestre Metropolitain du Grand Montreal - Meh....a little too subdued of a performance (6/10)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on August 05, 2011, 01:49:43 PM
OK - I need the music experts to help me understand what is going on in Bruckner's 7th Symphony, in the 1st movement.

Specifically, it occurs at around the 3 minute mark of the 1st movement.  It is when the woodwinds introduce a theme.  It's not the theme I'm inquiring about - but the pulsing rhythmic beat you can hear at the same time.  I don't know how to describe it - it sounds like modern, electronica or synthesizer music almost?  So unique.  Sounds ethereal.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about?  If so, what are the instrument(s) causing this 'effect'? 

I apologize, I don't have much education in music - so bear with me.  :D

Please, and thank you!  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on August 05, 2011, 02:03:34 PM
Quote from: MishaK on August 05, 2011, 12:08:00 PM
Alas, comprehension of Mahler does not automatically translate into comprehension of Bruckner. I found his Bruckner 4 recording rather pointless as well, despite the beautiful horn playing.

Indeed, often the two are at odds; not many conductors do both on a regular basis, very few conductors can do both equally well, and almost no conductors did both (well) at a young age. Sinopoli being one of those exceptions... perhaps a sign of his intelligence / talent?

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 05, 2011, 12:13:34 PM
Hänssler

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/bru6leitner.jpg)

A good Sixth (especially the last movement); great coupling.

The Leitner is a terrific disc all around... recently put a lot of Sixths to the test... Leitner floated near the top; the Suisse Romande on Pentatone with Janowski sank almost immediately for doing everything properly and getting nothing right.

A favorite alongside Celi/Munich, Haitink/Dresden.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 05, 2011, 02:04:54 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 05, 2011, 01:49:43 PM

Does anyone know what I'm talking about?  If so, what are the instrument(s) causing this 'effect'? 


Clarinet and oboe play the theme; horns and trumpets play the pulsating figures.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on August 05, 2011, 02:06:42 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 05, 2011, 02:04:54 PM
Clarinet and oboe play the theme; horns and trumpets play the pulsating figures.

Sarge

Thank you, Sarge!  I would not have guessed the horns and trumpets?!  Wow!   :)

It's an amazing effect.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 05, 2011, 02:13:02 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 05, 2011, 02:03:34 PM
The Leitner is a terrific disc all around... recently put a lot of Sixths to the test... Leitner floated near the top; the Suisse Romande on Pentatone with Janowski sank almost immediately for doing everything properly and getting nothing right.

A favorite alongside Celi/Munich, Haitink/Dresden.

That Haitink gets recommended a lot. Sigh....one more for the pile?

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on August 06, 2011, 04:19:18 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 05, 2011, 02:13:02 PM
That Haitink gets recommended a lot. Sigh....one more for the pile?

Sarge

Yes, I'm afraid. T'is a must. http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=121 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=121)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 06, 2011, 05:20:23 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 06, 2011, 04:19:18 AM
Yes, I'm afraid. T'is a must. http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=121 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=121)

I ordered it.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 06, 2011, 06:11:03 AM
Ok! Stop with the Bruckner 6th recommendations! My wallet is only so big!  :o ;D

I'm fairly sure it's o.o.p., but anyone familiar with the Blomstedt/SFO recording of Bruckner 6th?
Also, haven't seen much talk about Norrington's Bruckner discs with Southwest German Radio Symphony Orchestra on these forums, are they not worth mentioning?



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 06, 2011, 06:42:21 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 06, 2011, 06:11:03 AM
Also, haven't seen much talk about Norrington's Bruckner discs with Southwest German Radio Symphony Orchestra on these forums, are they not worth mentioning?

I think not many own them. I do. Jens too, I think...at least the Sixth. There was some discussion a year ago, here:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,29.msg415558.html#msg415558


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on August 06, 2011, 08:43:07 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 06, 2011, 06:11:03 AM
Ok! Stop with the Bruckner 6th recommendations! My wallet is only so big!  :o ;D

I'm fairly sure it's o.o.p., but anyone familiar with the Blomstedt/SFO recording of Bruckner 6th?
Also, haven't seen much talk about Norrington's Bruckner discs with Southwest German Radio Symphony Orchestra on these forums, are they not worth mentioning?

Well, you can't ask for no-Bruckner recommendations and then talk Norrington. Incidentally it's his Bruckner Sixth that is really very good: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/best-recordings-of-2010-almost-list.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/best-recordings-of-2010-almost-list.html). Different but never "just" interesting... always compelling.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 06, 2011, 08:53:26 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 06, 2011, 08:43:07 AM
Well, you can't ask for no-Bruckner recommendations and then talk Norrington. Incidentally it's his Bruckner Sixth that is really very good: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/best-recordings-of-2010-almost-list.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/best-recordings-of-2010-almost-list.html). Different but never "just" interesting... always compelling.

Thanks, Jens. And the sarcasm didn't reveal itself too well there...I should have just been straight about it and said, keep'em coming!

I see Norrington's Mahler 9th made the list, I am extremely fond of that performance.  :D 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on August 06, 2011, 03:51:17 PM
I know there are a couple of dedicated threads for a few of the symphonies, but I wish there was a thread for each individual symphony.   :(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on August 09, 2011, 11:52:37 PM
You know that fellow who used to post here (maybe he still does?) with an unhealthy obsession over Yehudi Menuhin?

"Get the Menuhin!"


Well, get - or at least try - the Eschenbach!



Seriously, I think I praised it a few pages/months back, when I dropped by, but I will say it again: it's pretty great.

You may well raise me the Celi, and claim that it's beyond 'pretty great', and you'd likely be right. But short of a Celibidachean tempo restructuring enterprise, there's hardly anyone who manages to take that score and produce a result that doesn't need to excuse itself for being 'lighter', more muscular, faster, whatever: it's Bruckner, and it sounds exactly what Bruckner would've written around the 4th and 5th, chronologically speaking. The end.

I'm making such a fuss about this because so many of the people who have performed the 6th with above average results have done so via accelerating, point-making, or delineating the symphony, as it were, into coherence. Whereas Eschenbach just plays the damn thing - with rubato, but no Celi business - and it just roars and purrs and whispers.

In other words, it shows itself to be a great Bruckner symphony like any other, that can be likened to a church, that people can obsess over whether it's sexual or spiritual, and so on and so forth. Nothing unusual, or (more) eccentric.

Point being, if Eschenbach can do it, perhaps we might consider why everyone seems to need to have a 'thing' about their 6th for us to like it. Maybe conductors just aren't willing enough to play it with a straight face? That would be consistent with that Haitink (which I've yet to hear) also being good, as he's the epitome of straight-faced. And it's not trivial at all that the 6th can sound normal that way, even if (I suspect) it was intended to, all along.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jwinter on August 22, 2011, 09:47:59 AM
This just landed in the mail today.  While I have several of Wand's late Berlin Philharmonic recordings and one or two with the NDR, I didn't have a full set, so at this price I decided to take the plunge.  From what I can tell this is his first set in Cologne from the late 70s - early 80s, so all of these recordings should be new to me -- looking forward to checking these out...

[asin]B0042U2HLY[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on August 22, 2011, 01:31:37 PM
Universal is reissuing - after an excessively long hiatus - the wonderfully idiosyncratic old 70s/80s Barenboim/CSO Bruckner set at bargain price (used to command in excess of $150 on ebay for the original late 80s CD issue - Berky's site had a few select Japanese reissues for sale for $129).

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/587952.jpg)

Contains, among other things, one of the very finest 0's, a superb 1, vastly underrated performances of 3, 5, and 6, which were never issued as single CDs, and, last but not least one of the very, very best 9ths on record. The 4th is a brass fest glory to behold. Not a first choice by any means, but good fun. Not on amazon yet, but Arkiv has it up for preorder for $44.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 22, 2011, 01:40:16 PM
JWinter, If I'm not  mistaken, this is Wand's second Cologne set. The first was with that city's other orchestra, the Gürzenich.

Is this one of those sets that retail around 20$ ? I bought a few of them at the absurd price of 15$ - all containing 4-8 discs. This must be brand, brand new. It hasn't reached the local Archambault (our Towers here in Quebec).

Re, the 6th: Milos is right, as always  ;). faves include Bongartz, both Leitners (the Basel performance is very, very different), Keilberth, the Stein and Swoboda. Powerful, rock solid, alternately exultant and peaceful, as befit the work. The 6th is one of Bruckner's most kaleidioscopic confections. Other worthies I like are Haitink (KCOA - the SD on Profil is waiting a hearing on my shelf), Lopez-Cobos, Klemperer (I have a perverse fondness for his zany Amesterdam workout). Jochum is also an excellent interpreter, but to my ears he lacks the last ounce of gruffness in I and IV.

The 6th is one of Bruckner's symphonies that constantly alternates dynamism and songfulness, swagger and tenderness. It doesn't thrive on single-mindedness. Uniformity of approach and polite classicism can kill it gently. Rudeness and crudeness will blow it to shreds. I won't mention the  non meritorious, but you can insert most others here.

Long, long time I haven't brucknerized. Right now I'm mahlerizing, having embarked on a comparative listening of the 9th. 14 down, 4-5 more to go. Wonderful experience.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 22, 2011, 02:19:22 PM
Quote from: André on August 22, 2011, 01:40:16 PM
JWinter, If I'm not  mistaken, this is Wand's second Cologne set. The first was with that city's other orchestra, the Gürzenich.

I'm 99.9% certain he never recorded the cycle with the Gürzenich. This Kölner RSO is Wand's only complete cycle.


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on August 22, 2011, 02:38:41 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 22, 2011, 02:19:22 PM
I'm 99.9% certain he never recorded the cycle with the Gürzenich. This Kölner RSO is Wand's only complete cycle.

Correct. Although there is apparently a '71 bootleg of an 8th with the Gürzenich, Wand never made any commercial recordings of Bruckner with them, though he was their music director (and along with that, of the Cologne Opera as well). BTW, that first review on the amazon page is by yours truly.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 22, 2011, 03:57:58 PM
You're both right. I was indeed mistaken. Wand made near-cycles in Hamburg and Berlin, and many recordings with the Gürzenich, but no commercial Bruckner recordings with that orchestra.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on August 23, 2011, 02:40:24 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 22, 2011, 02:19:22 PM
I'm 99.9% certain he never recorded the cycle with the Gürzenich. This Kölner RSO is Wand's only complete cycle.
Sarge

And of course you would be correct, too.

Wand (established on some other thread; anyone care to dig it out?) has only recorded one complete cycle.
In fact, he hadn't even conducted most of Bruckner when he was still with the Guerzenich. The 5th on this set is pretty much the first time he ever 'dare' tackled that work.

Ah, here it is:

Quote
Off topic, but appropriate for the general topic:

Edit: link(s) fixed

There is only one complete (well, the 8.75 symphonies One through Nine in any case) Bruckner cycle from Wand, and that's Cologne.

There are four incomplete cycles:

NDR - 1 (live @ Musikhalle Hamburg)
3 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003FCD/goodmusicguide-20), 4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E6N0/goodmusicguide-20), 5 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E6LB/goodmusicguide-20), 6 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003G1N/goodmusicguide-20), 7 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E6PD/goodmusicguide-20), 8 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003FTQ/goodmusicguide-20), 9 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003FQ2/goodmusicguide-20)

The late 90s autumn's autumn cycle from Berlin (Philharmonic), with one of the greatest 8th ever put on record... includes
4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000247D1/goodmusicguide-20), 5 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003G38/goodmusicguide-20), 7 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004YMJ0/goodmusicguide-20), 8 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q66Y/goodmusicguide-20), 9 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002VYE0E/goodmusicguide-20)

Munich (Philarmonic)
4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000KCI9VA/goodmusicguide-20), 5 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FVQUX0/goodmusicguide-20), 6 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0018RR282/goodmusicguide-20), 8 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FGGKL2/goodmusicguide-20), 9 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002WP015K/goodmusicguide-20)

Schleswig Holstein / NDR 2000/2001 (DVD)
4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000F6YWYE/goodmusicguide-20), 5 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000BK53M4/goodmusicguide-20), 6 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CEV63O/goodmusicguide-20), 7 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000IY06AC/goodmusicguide-20), 8 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CEV63Y/goodmusicguide-20), 9 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CEV648/goodmusicguide-20)

+ Luebeck / NDR:
8 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E6LD/goodmusicguide-20) , 9 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E6LE/goodmusicguide-20)
That 8th is a famous, great, reverberant recording/performance... but I prefer Berlin

In addition to that, there's a "last recording" 4th  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063BYT/goodmusicguide-20) with the NDR which may (or may not) be different from the one on TDK (I think it is; very broad, beautiful reading coupled with the best Schubert 5th I've ever heard), and several Ninths... in and out of print... from Stuttgart (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009SQCBY/goodmusicguide-20), Japan... 5 & 9 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003NB99GE/goodmusicguide-20) with the DSO-Berlin (also in the box set) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002QEXC9Y/goodmusicguide-20), and I think the early Cologne 5th (EMI-DHM, back when they were partners) is not the Cologne 5th in the set... but I don't have the former at hand to compare/check recording dates. As mentioned, there's an old 8th (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009JO21K/goodmusicguide-20) with Guerzenich on Scribendum.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jwinter on August 23, 2011, 05:38:08 AM
Quote from: André on August 22, 2011, 01:40:16 PM
Is this one of those sets that retail around 20$ ? I bought a few of them at the absurd price of 15$ - all containing 4-8 discs. This must be brand, brand new. It hasn't reached the local Archambault (our Towers here in Quebec).

Correct, got mine for $23 from amazon marketplace.  I've been cutting way back in my purchases, but it was hard to pass up a Bruckner set from Wand at a price like that.

While we're on the topic of Wand -- do folks feel that his take on Bruckner changes significantly over time, or is he pretty consistent in his interpretive choices?  I have most of the late Berlin recordings and the NDR 8th from Lubeck, and now the Cologne set -- are any of his recordings with the NDR and other orchestras (thanks for the list jlaurson!) different enough to be worth hunting down at some point?  I'm assuming that I can safely spend my future Bruckner dollars elsewhere? ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 23, 2011, 06:09:04 AM
Quote from: jwinter on August 23, 2011, 05:38:08 AM
While we're on the topic of Wand -- do folks feel that his take on Bruckner changes significantly over time...

Jens can answer you more fully than I can (I don't own much Wand: the Kölner box, NDR 4 & 9 and Berlin 8 ) but from what limited experience I do have the later performances could be radically different. Just look at the timings of the Fourth

Kölner RSO   17:26  15:39  10:36  20:20

NDR              20:26  16:56  11:58  23:41

That NDR Fourth is his last one, coupled with a stunning Schubert Fifth (a Jens' review alerted me to this CD):

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/BruckSchuWand.jpg)


In the Berlin Eighth he strikes me as more in tune with the emotional elements of the music. I find his Kölner Eighth too objective and cold (not a bad performance but one that doesn't resonate with me. I much prefer Berlin). All the Ninths are, apparently, different. Here's an interesting review (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=4866) that covers all five.


Sarge

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 23, 2011, 02:04:16 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 23, 2011, 06:09:04 AM
Jens can answer you more fully than I can (I don't own much Wand: the Kölner box, NDR 4 & 9 and Berlin 8 ) but from what limited experience I do have the later performances could be radically different. Just look at the timings of the Fourth...

Sarge

One wag once explained this quite simply: the aging bodies of conductors slow down their performances.

(We will avoid an inappropriate joke at this point!)  $:)

My counter-example to that claim is the incredible slam-dunk performance of Tchaikovsky's Francesca da Rimini by the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Leopold Stokowski in his 90's!  He was, of course, at that age rather small and frail, but it sounds as if Paul Bunyan on uppers were on the podium!

The timings of my DGG Jochum (he was in his early 60's at the time of the recording) from the 1960's: 

17:43   16:45   10:10   20:04
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 23, 2011, 02:07:41 PM
Quote from: Cato on August 23, 2011, 02:04:16 PM
... the aging bodies slow down their performances.

(We will avoid an inappropriate joke at this point!)  $:)

I won't avoid it: Mrs. Rock appreciates that part of the aging process  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 23, 2011, 02:22:17 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 23, 2011, 02:07:41 PM
I won't avoid it: Mrs. Rock appreciates that part of the aging process  ;D

Sarge

Dude!  You're in the club!   8)

And is it not past midnight where you are?

Get to bed!   ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 23, 2011, 02:48:31 PM
Quote from: Cato on August 23, 2011, 02:22:17 PM
Dude!  You're in the club!   8)

And is it not past midnight where you are?

Get to bed!   ;D

Almost one a.m....but I'm retired. Time means nothing to me  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rw1883 on August 23, 2011, 06:26:13 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 23, 2011, 06:09:04 AM
Jens can answer you more fully than I can (I don't own much Wand: the Kölner box, NDR 4 & 9 and Berlin 8 ) but from what limited experience I do have the later performances could be radically different. Just look at the timings of the Fourth

Kölner RSO   17:26  15:39  10:36  20:20

NDR              20:26  16:56  11:58  23:41

That NDR Fourth is his last one, coupled with a stunning Schubert Fifth (a Jens' review alerted me to this CD):

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/BruckSchuWand.jpg)


In the Berlin Eighth he strikes me as more in tune with the emotional elements of the music. I find his Kölner Eighth too objective and cold (not a bad performance but one that doesn't resonate with me. I much prefer Berlin). All the Ninths are, apparently, different. Here's an interesting review (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=4866) that covers all five.


Sarge

Sarge,

I've looked all over for that Wand 9th 5-cd set.  Do you know where I could find it?  Thanks...

Paul
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 23, 2011, 07:24:13 PM
I react differently to Wand's Bruckner interpretations in their various incarnations. I have no idea if it's him adapting to the orchestra at hand or if it's the age factor, but I find notable differences between his various cycles (generally complete from 4 to 9 - thanks for exhuming that comprehensive list, Jens !).

I haven't heard all of them, but well over 50% and generally prefer the Hamburg readings. Bigger in sound than Cologne, yet nimbler and straighter than Berlin (if 'nimble' applies at all to Bruckner). Cologne is lean, agile and strong on spices (good for 1-6). Hamburg is beefier yet never dry or marmoreal. Instead of relying on instrument's 'spices', it gives large doses of meat with a strong beef stock base. It retains a measure of agility and never stints on drama. Berlin is long on displaying Bruckner's orchestral choirs as well as that orchestra's amazing depth of sound, but to my ears the readings belong to the musical equivalent of Madame-Tussaud's Bruckner.

But I could change my mind. I still have 7 new discs to listen to, from Berlin, Cologne and Hamburg (alas, no Munich).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on August 24, 2011, 07:10:34 AM
Quote from: André on August 23, 2011, 07:24:13 PM
I haven't heard all of them, but well over 50% and generally prefer the Hamburg readings. Bigger in sound than Cologne, yet nimbler and straighter than Berlin (if 'nimble' applies at all to Bruckner). Cologne is lean, agile and strong on spices (good for 1-6). Hamburg is beefier yet never dry or marmoreal. Instead of relying on instrument's 'spices', it gives large doses of meat with a strong beef stock base. It retains a measure of agility and never stints on drama. Berlin is long on displaying Bruckner's orchestral choirs as well as that orchestra's amazing depth of sound, but to my ears the readings belong to the musical equivalent of Madame-Tussaud's Bruckner.

I would generally agree with that, though not quite with the Tussaud's Berlin comment. I find that my favorite Wand Bruckner is his NDR stuff on DVD. It has more spontaneity, more of a sense of coming-into-being, less of the calculation that I find in his Cologne and Berlin recordings,  though Cologne certainly has impact and Berlin polish. Somehow Barenboim got a bit more spontaneity out of Berlin than Wand in his BPO cycle.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on August 24, 2011, 07:20:30 AM
The Cologne Wand cycle never really managed to make a lasting impression on me. It's excellent, no doubt about that, but next to the opulence of Karajan's readings, or the rather more lean and mean Haitink cycle - not to mention Jochum's song-like, idiosyncratic Brucker - Wand's Cologne readings feel a little on the tame side.

Wand's Berlin readings, on the other hand (re: the issue of whether his Bruckner evolved over the years) have an amazing, intangible organic quality about them, next to which the Cologne cycle is (IMO) positively stodgy.

The 8th is indeed a particular highlight in Berlin, as is the 4th.

Interestingly, by the time one gets to the 'last' NDR 4th (linked above by Sarge), Wand seems to have reached a middle ground between the pastoral leanness of Cologne, and the shimmering textural magic of Berlin. So yeah, it's good! 8)


As for the others, I've heard some 'middle-period' NDR ones, and wasn't gobsmacked; although they are quite beautiful.

Picking just one Wand 4th, 8th and 9th (that see the most duplication in the Wand catalogue), I'd go for Berlin, Berlin, Berlin.


Edit: I haven't seen any of the DVDs, though.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on August 24, 2011, 09:12:18 AM
Quote from: jwinter on August 23, 2011, 05:38:08 AM
while we're on the topic of Wand -- do folks feel that his take on Bruckner changes significantly over time, or is he pretty consistent in his interpretive choices?  I have most of the late Berlin recordings and the NDR 8th from Lubeck, and now the Cologne set -- are any of his recordings with the NDR and other orchestras (thanks for the list jlaurson!) different enough to be worth hunting down at some point?  I'm assuming that I can safely spend my future Bruckner dollars elsewhere? ;D

I wouldn't be so sure. As pointed out, Cologne is very different from some of the later stuff. Not all of it radically (you will always get a relatively un-portentous reading of the Fifth, for example), but significantly. I've not yet listened to all of them in a way that would allow definitive comparative notes, but I have most of Wand's Bruckner (one of the Munich recordings is missing, ditto the DSO stuff, and I don't have the DVDs, except one, which I don't like all THAT much. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/01/bruckner-on-dvd-gnter-wand-in-seventh.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/01/bruckner-on-dvd-gnter-wand-in-seventh.html) Oh, no... wait, I actually liked it; it was Schubert and somethingsomething with Wand from the S-H-Festival that I didn't care for.

If/when I'll get around to massive Bruckner re-immersion, I shall perhaps have more pointed remarks to offer.

Generally: Berlin 8th! Luebeck 9th. NDR II 4th. Cologne 5th...

Also: I think the review of the Wand set of just 9th symphonies is an elaborate April's Fools Joke.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 24, 2011, 11:43:39 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 24, 2011, 09:12:18 AM
Also: I think the review of the Wand set of just 9th symphonies is an elaborate April's Fools Joke.

That would explain why I've never seen it on sale anywhere  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: rw1883 on August 24, 2011, 02:24:06 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 24, 2011, 09:12:18 AM
I wouldn't be so sure. As pointed out, Cologne is very different from some of the later stuff. Not all of it radically (you will always get a relatively un-portentous reading of the Fifth, for example), but significantly. I've not yet listened to all of them in a way that would allow definitive comparative notes, but I have most of Wand's Bruckner (one of the Munich recordings is missing, ditto the DSO stuff, and I don't have the DVDs, except one, which I don't like all THAT much. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/01/bruckner-on-dvd-gnter-wand-in-seventh.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/01/bruckner-on-dvd-gnter-wand-in-seventh.html) Oh, no... wait, I actually liked it; it was Schubert and somethingsomething with Wand from the S-H-Festival that I didn't care for.

If/when I'll get around to massive Bruckner re-immersion, I shall perhaps have more pointed remarks to offer.

Generally: Berlin 8th! Luebeck 9th. NDR II 4th. Cologne 5th...

Also: I think the review of the Wand set of just 9th symphonies is an elaborate April's Fools Joke.

Wow! Oh well... >:(
Title: Older Conductors of Bruckner: Carl Schuricht
Post by: Cato on August 24, 2011, 05:50:04 PM
The talk here recently about changes in Wand's technique and (possibly) age being involved took me back to the Bruckner performances of Carl Schuricht.

One example: Angel records used to have a budget label called Seraphim, and Schuricht had a marvelous Bruckner 9th on it with the Vienna Philharmonic c. 1962 (I believe).  At the time Schuricht would have been c. 82 years old.

The performance was one of the most powerful I have heard, and expressed the music's underlying mystery and awe of the divine.  A critic (I do not recall the name) had called Schuricht a conductor for those who want their Bruckner "straight-forward," which I found almost insulting, implying that his interpretations were perhaps unsubtle or lacking in attention to details.

Certainly the Ninth on Seraphim was powerful, so in that sense "straight-forward" was perhaps not unfair.  An octogenarian at the time, Schuricht still delivered a top performance.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on August 24, 2011, 06:37:51 PM
Quote from: MishaK on August 24, 2011, 07:10:34 AM
I would generally agree with that, though not quite with the Tussaud's Berlin comment. I find that my favorite Wand Bruckner is his NDR stuff on DVD. It has more spontaneity, more of a sense of coming-into-being, less of the calculation that I find in his Cologne and Berlin recordings,  though Cologne certainly has impact and Berlin polish. Somehow Barenboim got a bit more spontaneity out of Berlin than Wand in his BPO cycle.
Quote from: Renfield on August 24, 2011, 07:20:30 AM
The Cologne Wand cycle never really managed to make a lasting impression on me. It's excellent, no doubt about that, but next to the opulence of Karajan's readings, or the rather more lean and mean Haitink cycle - not to mention Jochum's song-like, idiosyncratic Brucker - Wand's Cologne readings feel a little on the tame side.

Wand's Berlin readings, on the other hand (re: the issue of whether his Bruckner evolved over the years) have an amazing, intangible organic quality about them, next to which the Cologne cycle is (IMO) positively stodgy.

I'm with Mishak and Andre on this one. I'd rather hear the earlier performances. Less perfection and more life.
Title: Re: Older Conductors of Bruckner: Carl Schuricht
Post by: Renfield on August 25, 2011, 06:11:43 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 24, 2011, 05:50:04 PM
The talk here recently about changes in Wand's technique and (possibly) age being involved took me back to the Bruckner performances of Carl Schuricht.

One example: Angel records used to have a budget label called Seraphim, and Schuricht had a marvelous Bruckner 9th on it with the Vienna Philharmonic c. 1962 (I believe).  At the time Schuricht would have been c. 82 years old.

The performance was one of the most powerful I have heard, and expressed the music's underlying mystery and awe of the divine.  A critic (I do not recall the name) had called Schuricht a conductor for those who want their Bruckner "straight-forward," which I found almost insulting, implying that his interpretations were perhaps unsubtle or lacking in attention to details.

Certainly the Ninth on Seraphim was powerful, so in that sense "straight-forward" was perhaps not unfair.  An octogenarian at the time, Schuricht still delivered a top performance.

There's an excellent Bruckner 3rd by Schuricht, part of his volume of Great Conductors of the 20th Century, that I'd admittedly call 'straight-forward'; but excellent nonetheless. Gimmick-free, rather than bland, or uninspired in any way.
Title: Re: Older Conductors of Bruckner: Carl Schuricht
Post by: MishaK on August 25, 2011, 06:45:43 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 24, 2011, 05:50:04 PM
The talk here recently about changes in Wand's technique and (possibly) age being involved took me back to the Bruckner performances of Carl Schuricht.

One example: Angel records used to have a budget label called Seraphim, and Schuricht had a marvelous Bruckner 9th on it with the Vienna Philharmonic c. 1962 (I believe).  At the time Schuricht would have been c. 82 years old.

The performance was one of the most powerful I have heard, and expressed the music's underlying mystery and awe of the divine.  A critic (I do not recall the name) had called Schuricht a conductor for those who want their Bruckner "straight-forward," which I found almost insulting, implying that his interpretations were perhaps unsubtle or lacking in attention to details.

Certainly the Ninth on Seraphim was powerful, so in that sense "straight-forward" was perhaps not unfair.  An octogenarian at the time, Schuricht still delivered a top performance.

Schuricht is one of my favorites. That Bruckner 9 is teriffic (it's from 1961, so Schuricht was "only" 81 then). There is also a superb 5 (also VPO), a decent 4th (good interpretively but marred by the lousy playing of the scratchy postwar SWR orchestra). But what's really amazing is his 1963 8th with VPO. That's simply one of the hands-down greatest performances of that work. And it's on the fast side (timings 15:32 14:00 21:44 19:43  for the mixed 1887/90 Haas version). You'd never guess it's an 83-year-old conducting. It has an intensity that grips you from the beginning and never lets go for the entire duration of the work. That apocalyptic opening of the finale is pedal-to-the-metal. Just stunning. That recording used to be available cheaply on the EMI Great Conductors series, now sadly OOP.

What's also worth checking out is Schuricht's superb Beethoven cycle from the 50s with the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra (I think) - Furtwängler allegedly once remarked after hearing Schuricht conduct Beethoven 5 "Besser kann man das nicht machen!" (it can't be done better than that!). There is also a nice set from Decca with a fine cross section of his Decca recordings that include a glowing Brahms 2 with VPO and a Brahms violin concerto with Ferras that is for me the ultimate symbiosis between conductor, orchestra and soloist.

BTW, looks like both Schuricht's VPO B9 and B8 are available from Japan:

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=TOCE-14023

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=TOCE-14022
Title: Re: Older Conductors of Bruckner: Carl Schuricht
Post by: Renfield on August 25, 2011, 06:57:32 AM
Quote from: MishaK on August 25, 2011, 06:45:43 AM
Schuricht is one of my favorites. That Bruckner 9 is teriffic (it's from 1961, so Schuricht was "only" 81 then). There is also a superb 5 (also VPO), a decent 4th (good interpretively but marred by the lousy playing of the scratchy postwar SWR orchestra). But what's really amazing is his 1963 8th with VPO. That's simply one of the hands-down greatest performances of that work. And it's on the fast side (timings 15:32 14:00 21:44 19:43  for the mixed 1887/90 Haas version). You'd never guess it's an 83-year-old conducting. It has an intensity that grips you from the beginning and never lets go for the entire duration of the work. That apocalyptic opening of the finale is pedal-to-the-metal. Just stunning. That recording used to be available cheaply on the EMI Great Conductors series, now sadly OOP.

What's also worth checking out is Schuricht's superb Beethoven cycle from the 50s with the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra (I think) - Furtwängler allegedly once remarked after hearing Schuricht conduct Beethoven 5 "Besser kann man das nicht machen!" (it can't be done better than that!). There is also a nice set from Decca with a fine cross section of his Decca recordings that include a glowing Brahms 2 with VPO and a Brahms violin concerto with Ferras that is for me the ultimate symbiosis between conductor, orchestra and soloist.

BTW, looks like both Schuricht's VPO B9 and B8 are available from Japan:

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=TOCE-14023

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=TOCE-14022

Quote from: Renfield on August 25, 2011, 06:11:43 AM
There's an excellent Bruckner 3rd by Schuricht, part of his volume of Great Conductors of the 20th Century, that I'd admittedly call 'straight-forward'; but excellent nonetheless. Gimmick-free, rather than bland, or uninspired in any way.

Correction: it is, of course, that lovely 8th in the GCot20C volume dedicated to Schuricht, as MishaK said.

The 3rd I was referring to is a Medici Classics release, if memory serves. Still very highly recommended!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 25, 2011, 07:54:22 PM
Guys, honestly, it doesn't matter which B5, 8 or 9 (the best, right? 0:) 0:) 0:)) are towering above the competition, or whether Furtwängler shits from a great height on Schuricht (or Szell, Karajan, etc). It's all about one's inner reaction to the music. I perfectly recall the day me and my best friend broke our piggybanks to buy records and went shopping. I chose a Telefunken record of Bach's Musical Offering (Leonhardt or Harnoncourt, but who cares?). My buddy went for Klemperer's B 9th, with the midnight sun fragmented pics adorning the lp cover, giving it a Bergman-like imagery. You can't figure this out if you haven't been part of the global marketing-cultural artistic scene (early 1970s?).

In any case, whatever one's temporal/cultural background, it takes mighty artistic impressions to equal/offset/surpass those of later epochs. IOW, first impressions last longer and loom larger. That's how art evolves (meaning: impressions are transient. Future will always engulf the past).

I eagerly wait re-acquaintance with Schuricht's 8th. But only after a few more Mahler 9ths have been digested... ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on August 26, 2011, 07:12:17 PM
I second the enthusiasm for the Schuricht 8 and 9 with the VPO.  The 5 is only in OK sounding broadcast mono, but also recommended.  I have it on a "Living Stage" CD, which I suspect is just a knock-off of somebody else's transfer.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on August 26, 2011, 07:47:56 PM
random observation made while updating the "Favorite Symphonies" list (where Bruckner 3-9 are now among the Olympians):

Bruckner wrote three symphonies (1,2 and 8 ) in c minor. Did that key have any special significance for him?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on August 26, 2011, 08:28:24 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 26, 2011, 07:47:56 PM
random observation made while updating the "Favorite Symphonies" list (where Bruckner 3-9 are now among the Olympians):

Bruckner wrote three symphonies (1,2 and 8 ) in c minor. Did that key have any special significance for him?

His quartet is in the key too. This is pure speculation, but given Bruckner's interest in Beethoven, it might stem from that composer's well-known use of the key (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beethoven_and_C_minor), although I do wonder whether musicologists had recognised this as early as Bruckner's time, but Bruckner would have been intelligent enough to make such observations for himself.

Beethoven uses it to represent struggle, but in the 8th of Bruckner from the various notes I've read, c minor is used during the less blazing moments to represent an autumnal feel - both uses have a transfigurative quality. It would be nice if somebody does know more on this, as your observation is interesting.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on August 27, 2011, 05:46:39 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on August 26, 2011, 08:28:24 PM
His quartet is in the key too. This is pure speculation, but given Bruckner's interest in Beethoven, it might stem from that composer's well-known use of the key (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beethoven_and_C_minor), although I do wonder whether musicologists had recognised this as early as Bruckner's time, but Bruckner would have been intelligent enough to make such observations for himself.

Beethoven uses it to represent struggle, but in the 8th of Bruckner from the various notes I've read, c minor is used during the less blazing moments to represent an autumnal feel - both uses have a transfigurative quality. It would be nice if somebody does know more on this, as your observation is interesting.

Hmm.  Well, Bruckner used d minor for two symphonies--3 and 9.  And guess who wrote his 9th symphony in d minor?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 28, 2011, 05:09:59 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 27, 2011, 05:46:39 PM
Hmm.  Well, Bruckner used d minor for two symphonies--3 and 9.

Three actually: Die Nullte is also in D minor.


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DieNacht on August 28, 2011, 05:44:59 AM
The early Requiem (1848) is also in d-minor. The liner notes to the old nonesuch-recording by Bernhard Jacobson (Beuerle is the conductor´s name) refers to Beethoven´s 9th and Mozart´s Requiem as a possible inspiration, also as regards the key; the Bruckner work openly proclaims the study of Mozart´s work, he says. According to sources, Bruckner continued to like this early work, revising in it 1892 and saying "It isn´t bad". But I wonder what has been written about the connections with Beethoven IX, probably not just a little ...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on August 29, 2011, 09:05:45 AM
Quote from: DieNacht on August 28, 2011, 05:44:59 AM
But I wonder what has been written about the connections with Beethoven IX, probably not just a little ...

Oh, plenty. All the tremolo mist openings with main theme gradually coming out of the mist before being stated at full blare, i.e. all of symphonies 3-9, are basically based on the opening of LvB 9 1st movement. Then there are more obvious parallels. Opening of 3rd, 1st movement: same key and same pitches as opening of LvB 9. Opening of 8th, 1st movement: same rhythm as opening of LvB9, but different key and intervals. Finale of 5th: the idea of having fragments of the previous movements be cited, then interrupted by the clarinet, which keeps trying to introduce the actual main theme of the finale until it finally succeeds, that's also straight out of the finale of LvB 9. Plenty more...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on August 29, 2011, 01:20:25 PM
I'm about to start a little Bruckner marathon myself. I'm going to start with Symphony No. 4, then work my up to the 9th. Bruckner has been a favorite composer of mine for many years. I find his music inspirational and find his dedication to the symphonic form so unique amongst the 19th Century.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DieNacht on August 29, 2011, 01:40:10 PM
QuoteOh, plenty. All the tremolo mist openings with main theme gradually coming out of the mist before being stated at full blare, i.e. all of symphonies 3-9, are basically based on the opening of LvB 9 1st movement. Then there are more obvious parallels. Opening of 3rd, 1st movement: same key and same pitches as opening of LvB 9. Opening of 8th, 1st movement: same rhythm as opening of LvB9, but different key and intervals. Finale of 5th: the idea of having fragments of the previous movements be cited, then interrupted by the c larinet, which keeps trying to introduce the actual main theme of the finale until it finally succeeds, that's also straight out of the finale of LvB 9. Plenty more...

Interesting comment. Haven´t studied the relationship Bruckner-Beethoven, but I started getting loosely associative/not-very-scientific ideas about the string phrasing in the beginning of the VIII as somewhat similar to those of the slow movement of Beethoven´s 4. PC etc. ...

I sometimes wonder how much works by other composers heard at concerts (or in these days through recordings) actually manifest themselves subconsciously as fragments or motifs in the oeuvre of a composer ... but this is of course a difficult subject and easily develops into a playground without much purpose, hard to verify and a bit of a dead end. I guess repeated similarities would highten the possibility of influence, of course. However it is clear that most composers have heard a lot of music by their colleagues; and to what extent do they develop all their ideas themselves, except from the style they reproduce ? Hm ... but it is probably under-estimated.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 29, 2011, 03:56:15 PM
Bruckner's symphonies 4-7 are in major tonalities (E Flat, B Flat, A and E). These undoubtedly carry a more affirmative, confident tone, as well as a relative preponderance of radiant, luminous sonorities. All these qualities take a step or two back in the other symphonies' tonal make up and thematic/rythmic organization. All four find a way to a solid affirmation of Bruckner's faith (in Man or in God - who knows?)

In symphonies 0-3 and 8-9 (all in c or d minor), one finds instead a preponderance of nervousness, anguish, despondency, anger, tragic utterances. Their way to a climactic symphonic ending (even in 9, if one is to believe the various reconstructions of the finale) is arduous, bitter, defiant.

What started as a tentative journey (0-3) made way to a more confident view of life. Remember that symphonies 5-7 were not or very minimally revised by the composer. When illness and advancing age cast a long shadow on this very fragile soul, self doubting and a measure of self-pitying made their way into his symphonic thinking (symphonies 8 and 9). He would once again revise, dither, reconsider, start over and finally not be able to finish the finale of the 9th. The inordinate time spent by the ailing composer on that movement and his advancing mental instability make me doubt any attempt can effectively reflect what a sane and healthy Bruckner might have come up with -  what should undoubtedly have been the crowning moment of his carreer.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 29, 2011, 04:16:59 PM
Quote from: DieNacht on August 29, 2011, 01:40:10 PM

I sometimes wonder how much works by other composers heard at concerts (or in these days through recordings) actually manifest themselves subconsciously as fragments or motifs in the oeuvre of a composer ... but this is of course a difficult subject and easily develops into a playground without much purpose, hard to verify and a bit of a dead end. I guess repeated similarities would heighten the possibility of influence, of course. However it is clear that most composers have heard a lot of music by their colleagues; and to what extent  they develop all their ideas themselves, except from the style they reproduce ? Hm ... but it is probably under-estimated.

Two things come to mind here: Bruckner (seemingly ghoulishly) wanted very much to be present when Beethoven's body was exhumed because of work at the Viennese cemetery where the body was interred.  Some (contradictory) reports have him crashing into the chapel where the casket was opened and cradling the skull vs. being allowed to stare into the casket, where (possibly) a lens from Bruckner's pince-nez fell out unnoticed, to be reburied with Beethoven

I recall discussing the incident with a professor, who thought this desire not at all odd or ghoulish.  "Bruckner wanted to see the actual physical person who had created some of the world's greatest works," he said.  "The soul might be gone, but you can't see that anyway!  So you have the next best thing."

The other thing is the speech of the Devil in Thomas Mann's novel Doctor Faustus where the Devil sneers at the idea of inspiration, especially any notion of divine inspiration.  He also makes a comment that, after so many great composers over so many centuries, "composing has become hard, devilishly hard." 

The composer gets an idea which - at first - seems original.  Then upon second thought, no, it sounds too much like Rimsky-Korsakov or another composer, and so the composer starts to change it around, and becomes dissatisfied, and by changing it around - as Beethoven often did - one shows little appreciation to any divinity involved in the initial inspiration. 

Thus does the Devil offer the fictional composer Adrian Leverkühn a way out of this impasse, by offering a new way of composing which seems curiously similar to Schoenberg's Composition With 12-Notes.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on August 29, 2011, 05:43:28 PM
Quote from: MishaK on August 29, 2011, 09:05:45 AM
All the tremolo mist openings with main theme gradually coming out of the mist before being stated at full blare, i.e. all of symphonies 3-9, are basically based on the opening of LvB 9 1st movement.

This is not true of 5 or 6.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on August 30, 2011, 07:10:59 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 29, 2011, 05:43:28 PM
This is not true of 5 or 6.

It is, even if not quite as literally so.

Quote from: André on August 29, 2011, 03:56:15 PM
The inordinate time spent by the ailing composer on that movement and his advancing mental instability make me doubt any attempt can effectively reflect what a sane and healthy Bruckner might have come up with -  what should undoubtedly have been the crowning moment of his carreer.

Who cares? It's at least as equally interesting what an insane Bruckner would have come up with.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on August 31, 2011, 05:55:50 PM
Quote from: MishaK on August 30, 2011, 07:10:59 AM
It is, even if not quite as literally so.

A thing that is not literally true is not true!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on August 31, 2011, 06:05:24 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 31, 2011, 05:55:50 PM
A thing that is not literally true is not true!

It can be 'true' as a general principle; or, true as an observation of that general principle being applied indirectly.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 01, 2011, 06:39:36 PM
Quote from: MishaK on August 30, 2011, 07:10:59 AM
It is, even if not quite as literally so.

Who cares? It's at least as equally interesting what an insane Bruckner would have come up with.

Who listens to what the insane Schumann wrote? Interesting as a musical footnote maybe, but not as the work of a world respected composer.

In any case, it's a nice compliment to Bruckner's genius.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on September 01, 2011, 07:58:52 PM
Quote from: André on September 01, 2011, 06:39:36 PM
Who listens to what the insane Schumann wrote? Interesting as a musical footnote maybe, but not as the work of a world respected composer.

In any case, it's a nice compliment to Bruckner's genius.

What was considered 'insane' back in Schumann's day is probably not the case today.  I'm probably more 'insane' than Schumann ever was.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on September 01, 2011, 08:01:50 PM
Have you had angelic and demonic visions?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 02, 2011, 05:23:26 PM
Syphilis induced. Don't forget syphilis induced.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 12:43:54 AM
Quote from: André on September 02, 2011, 05:23:26 PM
Syphilis induced. Don't forget syphilis induced.


Indeed.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on September 03, 2011, 02:38:31 AM
Quote from: André on September 02, 2011, 05:23:26 PM
Syphilis induced. Don't forget syphilis induced.

You suffer from Syphilis? My condolences.
Unless you refer to Schumann, in which case that is a common, but highly speculative assumption.
Unless you mix him up with Schubert, in which case it's a fact.
Now more Bruckner please!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 04, 2011, 07:32:48 AM
Yes, major general! $:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on September 04, 2011, 08:51:09 AM
Quote from: André on September 04, 2011, 07:32:48 AM
Yes, major general! $:)

Modern major general, please!

OK... something Bruckner...  random, if necessary:

Has anyone who has listened to a couple of the O.d.l.Suisse-Janowski  or Salzburg-Bolton Bruckner releases convinced of either cycle?

I find especially the Janowski  so far a string of pretty duds.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on September 04, 2011, 10:46:07 AM
Allow me to stop by this thread and say:

(http://www.tonspion.de/system/files/images/bruckner7g.jpg)

Happy Birthday, Anton!!!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 04, 2011, 10:58:23 AM
You're right!


Seconded.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 04, 2011, 05:17:40 PM
Hi Johan!!  :D :D.

Jens: so far the Bolton Salzburg  I've heard are 5 and 7, and from Janowski the 8th and 9th. What these two have in common is a slightly leaner orchestra (esp. Bolton). I think they also share a no-nonsense approach to tempi and a refusal to milk the music of all its dramatic juices. Janowski comes across as more convincing, and probably represents what a good pre-1950 orchestra might have sounded like size-wise (that is, about 10-20% less strings).

I found a lot of freshness in the Bolton 5th, even though that is not a quality I would have been looking for in that work. The 7th on the other hand has a long tradition of lean, tense and volatile readings (Gielen for example). It works quite well for me. Bolton is slower than most and, coupled with the broad tempi, I find it wanting in weight and low on the majesty vs. strife tension inherent to in the work.

Janowski is more to my liking. But so far I've only given them one hearing. More exposure will have to wait until I'm finished with the 20+ versions of 8 and 9 waiting on my shelves  :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 04, 2011, 11:23:29 PM
Quote from: André on September 04, 2011, 05:17:40 PM
Hi Johan!!

Hi André! All's well here. At your end too, I hope. Keep them Bruckner posts coming!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on September 12, 2011, 08:07:48 PM
I've been reading a good bit about the 6th, one of the more underrated symphonies of Bruckner's symphonic output, and I still can't understand it's neglect. What do the fellow Brucknerians here think of this symphony? Why do you think it tends to get overlooked by 4, 5, 7, 8, and 9?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on September 12, 2011, 08:16:12 PM
6 is supposedly the difficult one, though measuring relative difficulty in Bruckner's symphonies would itself surely be a tasker! I think the answer may simply be that 6 has less memorable material.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on September 12, 2011, 08:19:40 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 12, 2011, 08:16:12 PMI think the answer may simply be that 6 has less memorable material.

Surely not the case! The opening and closing movements have material which would be appropriate in action movies. You do have a point, though, about the central movements, especially the slow movement - less memorable, perhaps, or at least more difficult to bring off, than the slow movements of, say, 7, 8, or 9, especially because (unlike 7 and 8 ) there isn't a great big climax with cymbals crashing, or even optional cymbals crashing, unless I'm very gravely misremembering the piece. Only Celi has really sold me on 6's slow movement.

It might be the case that the very speed and approachability which make the symphony's beginning so cinematic, so frightening, is also a demerit when critics are calculating the 'profundity score.'  ;D (As is, maybe, the fact that the symphony is 5-15 minutes shorter than many of Bruckner's others.)

Edit: Forgot I can't put '8' in parentheses
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on September 12, 2011, 08:25:10 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 12, 2011, 08:16:12 PM
6 is supposedly the difficult one, though measuring relative difficulty in Bruckner's symphonies would itself surely be a tasker! I think the answer may simply be that 6 has less memorable material.

What's interesting is Bruckner's 6th is perceived as the "difficult" one just like Sibelius's 6th is difficult. Hmmm...food for thought.

Anyway, I'm watching Gunter Wand conduct the NDR Symphony Orchestra right now and the last movement is on and I have say there is a lot of the material is memorable. That Adagio is something else. Puts me into another world. The quick Scherzo movement provides some interesting rhythms. I'm about to listen to the 7th again as it's been awhile on this one. I think I'll visit an old friend...

[asin]B00000E3HJ[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on September 12, 2011, 09:02:21 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 12, 2011, 08:19:40 PM
Surely not the case! The opening and closing movements have material which would be appropriate in action movies.

Do you find action movie scores especially memorable? 8)

I gauge memorability by how easily I can recall themes I haven't heard for a while. Offhand, I know the first few minutes of 4 plus the scherzo, the openings of 1 and 3 plus moments of 3's finale, the openings of 8's first and last movements, and large chunks of 9. To be honest, I'd have to stretch myself to recall anything from 7, though it would probably be easier to recall the adagio's main theme if I wasn't currently listening to Mahler's 6th!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 13, 2011, 01:02:49 AM
Bruckner's Sixth is among my favourites. I rate the Adagio as highly as its more admired successors.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on September 13, 2011, 01:09:52 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 12, 2011, 08:07:48 PM
I've been reading a good bit about the 6th, one of the more underrated symphonies of Bruckner's symphonic output, and I still can't understand it's neglect. What do the fellow Brucknerians here think of this symphony? Why do you think it tends to get overlooked by 4, 5, 7, 8, and 9?

The Sixth had the problem of the parts (players) being different from the score (conductor), which may be one, possibly the crucial, reason why the Sixth was neglected until recently... less performed, less recorded, less-often listened-to... which still spills over into its perception as a lesser/neglected symphony today. Conductors were just too bloody lazy in the days. :-)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on September 13, 2011, 03:22:09 AM
Judging from the somewhat hit-and-miss results, I suspect the Bruckner 6th is indeed quite a bit tricky to conduct. Certainly, it sounds a lot more sensitive to all the various tempi, and the transitions between them, than the more 'monolithic' symphonies.

So Jens may have a point - like Mahler's 7th, it may have been too 'annoying' for most conductors around the Bruckner boom.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jwinter on September 13, 2011, 04:46:14 AM
Just pulled the trigger on this set.  Anyone familiar with it?

[asin]B0027LZ4CE[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on September 13, 2011, 05:54:36 PM
I really, really love Philippe Herrweghe and Berlin RIAS Chamber Chorus/Champs-Élysées Orchestra recording of Bruckner's Mass No. 3 in F minor.  I was disappointed to see that he hasn't recorded the other two masses.  Does anyone know if there are plans for recording the other two masses, and perhaps other of Bruckner's sacred works?

[asin]B001BBSE32[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 13, 2011, 05:55:47 PM
JWINTER: There's a quite lengthy review at Music web : http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2008/Mar08/Bruckner_symphonies_sch3112.htm
A decidedly mixed review, but its sheer length bespeaks of a worthy enterprise.

Sorry, I forgot how to insert hyperlinks in the text :P
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jwinter on September 14, 2011, 04:38:08 AM
Quote from: André on September 13, 2011, 05:55:47 PM
JWINTER: There's a quite lengthy review at Music web : http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2008/Mar08/Bruckner_symphonies_sch3112.htm
A decidedly mixed review, but its sheer length bespeaks of a worthy enterprise.

Sorry, I forgot how to insert hyperlinks in the text :P

Thanks for the link!  The Amazon reviews seemed pretty positive, and at $15.97 for the set, including shipping, I figured it was worth a try.

It's coming from Germany, so it'll take a week or two, I imagine -- I'll report back when I've given it a listen.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on September 14, 2011, 05:43:49 AM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on September 14, 2011, 12:04:33 AM
Happily there's an excellent recording of the E minor mass (plus motets), well worth hearing:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31751RV40NL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

But not the D minor AFAIK.  :( 


Oh wonderful!  Thanks for that info, Soapy!   :)  I had just done a brief search on ArkivMusic, and only saw the Mass in F minor recording, so I just assumed Herreweghe hadn't recorded any of the other masses/sacred music.  I should always remember that not everything is listed on ArkivMusic.   :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on September 14, 2011, 02:59:52 PM
Heads up:

[asin]B0056K4VZO[/asin]

Kubelik's phenomenal studio Bruckner 3 & 4 reissued as part of one of Sony's cheapo sets. I'm not familiar with the Mozart and Schumann recordings, but I have yet to hear something from this conductor/orchestra combo I don't like. But seriously, that Bruckner 4 is my absolute top choice of the twenty-odd I own. The codas of the outer movements have to be heard to be believed. The whole thing is broad but organically forward moving, impeccably balanced. Previously only available from Japan.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 14, 2011, 08:31:59 PM
Misha, I concur with your enthusiastic endorsement of Kubelik's studio recordings of 3 and 4. Top of the line both. I esp. love his way with 4, but also his choice of Oeser 1877 for 3. Glorious playing, translucent recording. I could name others for the podium, but there's no denial that Kubelik belongs right there.

I haven't heard the Mozart recordings (downloaded a long time ago, but time and listening preferences have kept them from coming down the assembly line). As for the Schumann, you're looking at worthy equals to the Bruckner recordings: they don't come any better than this. Clearly a case of less is more (as opposed to Bernstein's Schumann, which I can't stomach).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on September 15, 2011, 05:50:23 AM
Quote from: André on September 14, 2011, 08:31:59 PM
As for the Schumann, you're looking at worthy equals to the Bruckner recordings: they don't come any better than this. Clearly a case of less is more (as opposed to Bernstein's Schumann, which I can't stomach).

That's good to know. I have his BPO Schumann cycle on DG and wasn't that enthusiastic about that, mostly though due to the wooly sound.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 15, 2011, 05:29:38 PM
The Bernstein recordings are with the VPO (WP), not the BPO. That may actually be part of the reason I don't like them !
I may be off, but I suspect that, had Bernstein played / recorded these late-carreer versions of Mozart, Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms, Mahler, Sibelius, Shostakovich and Bruckner with the BP instead of the WP, the results would have been more satisfying ! Bernstein's interpretive indulgence combined with the tonal and rythmic effulgence of the WP make for strangely unfocused, unsettled, unsatisfying results. Conversely, his recordings with the Israel Philharmonic are uniformly dry and unsmiling, and equally unsatisfying. His few Amsterdam, Berlin and New York recordings of the same era are uniformly better (cf the Amsterdam Schubert and Beethoven, New-York and Berlin Mahler: all are more solidly anchored tonally as well as more solid and assertive rythmically). Of all Bernstein's Vienna recordings, only the early Beethoven cycle is on a level consistent with his artistry and genius - while still quite uneven.

Back to Bruckner: only one Mahler 9 to go (Chailly) and I'll resume Bruckner listening. More posts to come  >:D !!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on September 16, 2011, 07:14:29 AM
Quote from: André on September 15, 2011, 05:29:38 PM
The Bernstein recordings are with the VPO (WP), not the BPO.

Sorry. Lack of clarity on my part. I meant to say: I have Kubelik's earlier Schumann cycle with the BPO on DG which sounds a bit woolly. Not Lenny.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 16, 2011, 04:30:43 PM
No problemo. It still triggered an interesting aside  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on September 23, 2011, 07:37:51 AM
A book I am reading includes this little note by Klemperer:

"In the last movement of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony I have made cuts. In this instance it seems to me that the composer was so full of musical invention that he went too far. Brucknerians will object, and it is certainly not my intention that these cuts should be considered as a model for others. I can only take the responsibility for my own intepretation."

It sounds fairly harmless - couldn't it be possible to enjoy a performance like this on its own merits?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on September 23, 2011, 08:01:41 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on September 23, 2011, 07:37:51 AM
It sounds fairly harmless - couldn't it be possible to enjoy a performance like this on its own merits?

Sure! :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 24, 2011, 02:37:24 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on September 23, 2011, 07:37:51 AM
It sounds fairly harmless - couldn't it be possible to enjoy a performance like this on its own merits?

I think so. I've been listening to Knapp's Vienna Fifth at least once a year for the past 35 years. Despite the savage cuts in the Finale, despite the reorchestration by Franz Schalk, it's a fun listen and a historical link to Bruckner performing tradition. I just keep in mind that it doesn't have Bruckner's seal of approval.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on September 24, 2011, 02:20:08 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 24, 2011, 02:37:24 AM
I think so. I've been listening to Knapp's Vienna Fifth at least once a year for the past 35 years. Despite the savage cuts in the Finale, despite the reorchestration by Franz Schalk, it's a fun listen and a historical link to Bruckner performing tradition. I just keep in mind that it doesn't have Bruckner's seal of approval.

Sarge

Is that a quasi-Gurnian tradition you have, there? ;D

To elaborate on my previous post, I really don't mind listening to a performance with (reasonable) alterations, in so far as it's a performances of something different than, in this case, Bruckner's 8th. It's Bruckner's 8th, ed. Klemperer, and I treat it like that.

Now, if we're talking cuts as in 'I cut out half the slow movement', I get a little less charitable.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on September 24, 2011, 02:42:21 PM
I suppose I ask because there are so many good Bruckner recordings available, and so with my modern scholarship-leaning mindset, if I were to pick between two great recordings of the 8th, and one was cut, before I read that Klemperer statement I would not have hesitated to pick up the un-cut one. I suppose it's made me consider the alternative POV, or at least become aware of it. It is all to easy to assume that older performances including cuts were the result of a bumblingly naive performance tradition, unthinkingly reliant on over-zealous editors, corrupt editions, score pages being lots on trains, etc, but I suppose that often it was also an aesthetic decision by the conductors involved.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on September 24, 2011, 02:48:50 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on September 24, 2011, 02:42:21 PM
but I suppose that often it was also an aesthetic decision by the conductors involved.

Absolutely. And this impression extends to unconventional interpretative choices, as well, for me (e.g. Celibidache).

Which is why my original predilection for buying CDs by conductor first and foremost has turned into a conscious modus operandi, over the years, of deciding whether a conductor has sound aesthetic judgement, and then trusting them. :)


Edit: Sort of like virtue ethics, if you're familiar with the term. Virtue Aesthetics. 8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on September 24, 2011, 03:03:57 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on September 24, 2011, 02:42:21 PM
but I suppose that often it was also an aesthetic decision by the conductors involved.

Definitely. Klemperer is very good example. He wrote (and recorded) new, quiet coda for Mendelssohn's 3rd Symphony, since he believed that composer's up-beat coda was Mendelssohn giving in to popular demand.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 24, 2011, 07:51:39 PM
Quote from: Drasko on September 24, 2011, 03:03:57 PM
Definitely. Klemperer is very good example. He wrote (and recorded) new, quiet coda for Mendelssohn's 3rd Symphony, since he believed that composer's up-beat coda was Mendelssohn giving in to popular demand.

Not sure. A quiet ending to a symphony would have been resolutely original and not a little bit defiant. I revere Mendelssohn, but defiant is not a quality I associate with him. Why would he have given in to popular demand when he was in fact defining his era's 'taste' ? If ever a composer was in sync with his times, Mendelssohn certainly qualified.

Klemperer did record the standard text for EMI but he couldn't help put a perverse twist to that coda: it sounds like a musical depiction of a nightmare chase in slow motion  ;) - as if he was determined to isolate it - secate it in fact from the preceding 35 minutes. I've heard that BRSO 'Scottish' bizarrery and am inclined to think he seriously erred - a rare occurence, but when he did, he was spectacular: had us all flat on our backs (Mahler 7, Bruckner 8, and oddities like his valium take on Beethoven 9:II).

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Geo Dude on October 05, 2011, 06:22:45 PM
I have a few Bruckner recordings on hand (Jochum 3 and 7, Giulini 9) but would like to pick up a full set of the symphonies and really dig in to these works; preferably at budget price.  The Karajan and Wand sets both seem interesting, and I am interested in thoughts on those, but I'm also open to other suggestions.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on October 05, 2011, 06:34:20 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 05, 2011, 06:22:45 PM
I have a few Bruckner recordings on hand (Jochum 3 and 7, Giulini 9) but would like to pick up a full set of the symphonies and really dig in to these works; preferably at budget price.  The Karajan and Wand sets both seem interesting, and I am interested in thoughts on those, but I'm also open to other suggestions.

I suggest Skrowaczewski for a full set.  You can get it for $50 on Amazon.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Geo Dude on October 05, 2011, 07:03:38 PM
Quote from: Daverz on October 05, 2011, 06:34:20 PM
I suggest Skrowaczewski for a full set.  You can get it for $50 on Amazon.

That's a bit out of my price range right now, but the reviews are good.  It's on the wish list.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on October 05, 2011, 07:24:15 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 05, 2011, 07:03:38 PM
That's a bit out of my price range right now, but the reviews are good.  It's on the wish list.

Well, it's ceratainly not as cheap, even per disc, as the Wand set on Sony, but it does include Symphony No. 0 and the Symphony in F.  The latter is not essential, but I think 0 is.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 06, 2011, 03:24:13 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 05, 2011, 06:22:45 PMThe Karajan and Wand sets both seem interesting...

Interesting, yes, and the only major Bruckner sets that are currently cheap. In a poll the forum ran a few months ago, Wand was the overwhelming choice. See the results here. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18774.msg527782.html#msg527782) I did my own "Deathmatch" between the two sets. The result was inconclusive, with Karajan clearly the better performance and/or recording in half the symphonies, Wand the winner in the other half:

1-Wand

2-Karajan

3-Karajan

4-Wand 

5-Tie

6-Karajan  (although neither is a favorite recording)

7-Karajan

8-Wand

9-Wand


Sarge

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on October 06, 2011, 06:17:45 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 06, 2011, 03:24:13 AM

6-Karajan  (although neither is a favorite recording)

What's your favorite recording of the 6th, Sarge? I was always fond of Chailly's, though Klemperer's is excellent as well.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 06, 2011, 06:26:34 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 06, 2011, 06:17:45 AM
What's your favorite recording of the 6th, Sarge? I was always fond of Chailly's, though Klemperer's is excellent as well.

I have sixteen recordings of the Sixth. Favorites: Klemperer, Celibidache, and Norrington (for something completely different). I've recently acquired Leitner and Haitink/Dresden, both enthusiastically recommended by folks here, but I haven't heard them yet.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on October 06, 2011, 06:31:54 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 06, 2011, 06:26:34 AM
I have sixteen recordings of the Sixth. Favorites: Klemperer, Celibidache, and Norrington (for something completely different). I've recently acquired Leitner and Haitink/Dresden, both enthusiastically recommended by folks here, but I haven't heard them yet.

Sarge

The Haitink/Dresden is quite good indeed. I give it an 8 out of 10 if I were to give it a rating. The 6th is one of my favorite Bruckner symphonies.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on October 06, 2011, 06:43:47 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 06, 2011, 03:24:13 AM
Interesting, yes, and the only major Bruckner sets that are currently cheap. In a poll the forum ran a few months ago, Wand was the overwhelming choice. See the results here. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18774.msg527782.html#msg527782) I did my own "Deathmatch" between the two sets. The result was inconclusive, with Karajan clearly the better performance and/or recording in half the symphonies, Wand the winner in the other half:

1-Wand

2-Karajan

3-Karajan

4-Wand 

5-Tie

6-Karajan  (although neither is a favorite recording)

7-Karajan

8-Wand

9-Wand


Sarge

Thanks Sarge!  I was always curious to see the results of the "Deathmatch".  :)  Does that mean you threw the discs in the fireplace for the Karajan's 1, 4, 8 & 9, while tossing Wand's 2, 3, 6 and 7, while keeping both for the 5th?  8)  C'mon Sarge, a deathmatch is a deathmatch!  ;D  Alternatively, you can just forward the losing recordings to Winnipeg, Canada!!!   :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 06, 2011, 06:49:58 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 06, 2011, 06:43:47 AM
C'mon Sarge, a deathmatch is a deathmatch!

;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on October 06, 2011, 06:52:10 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 06, 2011, 06:49:58 AM
;D :D ;D

Perhaps it is time to bring out your machine gun.  That would be the proper way!   8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on October 06, 2011, 07:18:57 AM
Re: the 4th, you prefer that Wand to the DG BPO Karajan, Sarge?!

I recall you loving the - arguably sublime - EMI Karajan, but I find enough room in my heart for the DG as well, myself. 0:)


(Not that the early Wand is bad, by any means. I just think both Karajans top it; the EMI roughly tied with the Berlin Wand.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 06, 2011, 07:41:36 AM
Quote from: Renfield on October 06, 2011, 07:18:57 AM
Re: the 4th, you prefer that Wand to the DG BPO Karajan, Sarge?!

I recall you loving the - arguably sublime - EMI Karajan, but I find enough room in my heart for the DG as well, myself. 0:)


(Not that the early Wand is bad, by any means. I just think both Karajans top it; the EMI roughly tied with the Berlin Wand.)

Karajan's EMI Fourth is my favorite Fourth--has been since it's American release on Angel in a three LP box in the early 70s (coupled with the Seventh).  Four years later I bought the LP of the DG Fourth, expecting improved sound and a similar performance. I was bitterly disappointed. Sonically it wasn't nearly as attractive to me, and worse, Karajan shaved almost three minutes off the timing of the first movement, which damaged the great chorale at the heart of the movement. Compared to the EMI Fourth, I found it cold and unfeeling. Hearing the CD thirty-sxi years later didn't change my iinitial impressions.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on October 06, 2011, 07:53:22 AM
Interesting! I agree that it's a very different performance, and quite clinical (cf. the Shostakovich 10th from that era).

But it's beautiful in a strange, albeit somewhat manufactured, way that wins me over. By comparison, Wand's is just good.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 06, 2011, 08:51:57 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 05, 2011, 06:22:45 PM
I have a few Bruckner recordings on hand (Jochum 3 and 7, Giulini 9) but would like to pick up a full set of the symphonies and really dig in to these works; preferably at budget price.  The Karajan and Wand sets both seem interesting, and I am interested in thoughts on those, but I'm also open to other suggestions.


Jochum/Dresden is cheap, and startlingly good:



[asin]B00004YA0T[/asin]




Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on October 06, 2011, 10:30:35 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on October 06, 2011, 08:51:57 AM

Jochum/Dresden is cheap, and startlingly good:


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004YA0T.01.L.jpg)

If you buy the Brilliant Classics issue you get Skrowaczewski's Symphony No. 0 as a bonus.

...but I see that the BC set is now 10 bucks more than the EMI set from Amazon sellers.   And the Karajan set is cheaper still.  I think I'd give the nod the Karajan set as I suspect the price will eventually go back up.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on October 06, 2011, 10:36:33 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/613sBhBz1SL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Amazon is giving a pre-release  price of $33.74 (US release is 18 October), haven't checked across the pond prices.

Apparently this includes "Die Nullte" but not Helgoland, unlike the already available Warner box, which has Helgoland but not "Die Nullte". 

Although, since the Wand set is sitting in my "need to listen to" pile, I'll not be in a hurry to get either version.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 06, 2011, 12:57:29 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 06, 2011, 10:36:33 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/613sBhBz1SL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Amazon is giving a pre-release  price of $33.74 (US release is 18 October), haven't checked across the pond prices.

At Amazon UK it's the equivalent of $55. Amazon DE $66.

QuoteApparently this includes "Die Nullte" but not Helgoland, unlike the already available Warner box, which has Helgoland but not "Die Nullte"

Amazon UK is showing Helgoland, Te Deum and Psalm 150 along with Die Nullte.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 09, 2011, 05:15:19 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 05, 2011, 07:03:38 PM
That's a bit out of my price range right now, but the reviews are good.  It's on the wish list.

Take heart: I just bought the Wand set on Amazon for peanuts:

Bruckner: Symphonies Nos 1 - 9
Sold by: BlowItOutaHere
Condition: new
Quantity: 1
$19.12 each
Item subtotal: $19.12

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Renfield on October 10, 2011, 03:59:49 AM
Quote from: Renfield on October 06, 2011, 07:53:22 AM
Interesting! I agree that it's a very different performance, and quite clinical (cf. the Shostakovich 10th from that era).

Wait a minute, that's not true! :o Wrong decade.

I'm not sure what I was thinking when I wrote that. A better comparison to the DG Bruckner 4th would be his Mahler 4th, perhaps.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on October 10, 2011, 06:39:01 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 06, 2011, 10:36:33 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/613sBhBz1SL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Amazon is giving a pre-release  price of $33.74 (US release is 18 October), haven't checked across the pond prices.

Apparently this includes "Die Nullte" but not Helgoland, unlike the already available Warner box, which has Helgoland but not "Die Nullte". 

According to arkivmusic, it does include Helgoland: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=587952

I would have been rather surprised if it didn't, since the original release and the original single CD with Symphony 1 already included Barenboim's first recording of Helgoland.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Geo Dude on October 10, 2011, 06:56:44 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 06, 2011, 07:41:36 AM
Karajan's EMI Fourth is my favorite Fourth--has been since it's American release on Angel in a three LP box in the early 70s (coupled with the Seventh).  Four years later I bought the LP of the DG Fourth, expecting improved sound and a similar performance. I was bitterly disappointed. Sonically it wasn't nearly as attractive to me, and worse, Karajan shaved almost three minutes off the timing of the first movement, which damaged the great chorale at the heart of the movement. Compared to the EMI Fourth, I found it cold and unfeeling. Hearing the CD thirty-sxi years later didn't change my iinitial impressions.

Sarge

Thanks for this.  When I ordered the Karajan set I supplemented it with an EMI recording of the fourth.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 10, 2011, 07:04:48 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 10, 2011, 06:56:44 AM
Thanks for this.  When I ordered the Karajan set I supplemented it with an EMI recording of the fourth.

Well, I hope you like it as much as I do. No certainty of that though. It's always a gamble listening to me  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 10, 2011, 07:16:37 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 10, 2011, 07:04:48 AM
It's always a gamble listening to me  :D

Sarge
Not really. You're like a rock! :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 10, 2011, 08:03:44 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 10, 2011, 07:16:37 AM
You're like a rock! :)

Molecularly dense, unyielding, and defeated by paper?

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 10, 2011, 08:18:32 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 10, 2011, 08:03:44 AM
Molecularly dense, unyielding, and defeated by paper?

Sarge
No. Molten, lustrous, and the foundation upon which everything is built. But don't let it go to your head... ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 21, 2011, 10:45:33 AM
Okay, so at 5:00 A.M. I am suddenly awake and my brain is playing the middle part of the last movement of Bruckner's Fifth Symphony.

I had two questions: did my brain start playing it at c. 4:10 A.M.?   :D

And: was this a portent of something good?

Question 1 remains an eternal mystery!   0:)   Question 2 I answered affirmatively, since at least I was not aurally e.g. in the middle of the Sixth Symphony's little funeral march, or the last movement of the Ninth!   :o

And really, the Fifth is a slam-bang work!   8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on November 19, 2011, 06:28:17 AM
I was wondering if anyone had a detailed/thorough analysis or synopsis of what is going on in the first 2 movements of Bruckner's 7th Symphony?  Or if anyone has written one themselves too.

I would love to read one, thank you!   :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 20, 2011, 02:05:16 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 19, 2011, 06:28:17 AM
I was wondering if anyone had a detailed/thorough analysis or synopsis of what is going on in the first 2 movements of Bruckner's 7th Symphony?  Or if anyone has written one themselves too.

I would love to read one, thank you!   :)

The only analysis of the Seventh I see online is at JSTOR (http://www.jstor.org/pss/20556970)  but you have to have affiliation to access it. Frustrating.

I suggest you borrow Robert Simpson's The Essence of Bruckner from the library. Actually, if you are a Brucknerian, you should own a copy.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on November 20, 2011, 04:26:43 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 20, 2011, 02:05:16 AM
The only analysis of the Seventh I see online is at JSTOR (http://www.jstor.org/pss/20556970)  but you have to have affiliation to access it. Frustrating.

I suggest you borrow Robert Simpson's The Essence of Bruckner from the library. Actually, if you are a Brucknerian, you should own a copy.

Sarge

Thanks Sarge!  :)  Actually, I did check out Robert Simpon's book from the library about 3 years ago.  Didn't get a chance to read it all, but it was interesting.  I should check it out again, and I might be able to get a better understanding of it as I've learned more about technical music analysis over the last few years.  :)

Sarge - out of curiosity - is this Robert Simpson, author - the same as person as the composer?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on November 20, 2011, 12:19:43 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 20, 2011, 04:26:43 AM

Sarge - out of curiosity - is this Robert Simpson, author - the same as person as the composer?

Yes. Cheeky people will say that you can hear it in the music.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lethevich on November 20, 2011, 01:32:13 PM
I've lost count of how many people I've read expressing disappointment upon investigating Simpson's symphonies after seeing them compared in style to Bruckner and Nielsen - outside of specialist analysis I'm beginning to think that the comparison is unhelpful :\

Edit: grammmeer etcetc
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 21, 2011, 04:00:28 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 19, 2011, 06:28:17 AM
I was wondering if anyone had a detailed/thorough analysis or synopsis of what is going on in the first 2 movements of Bruckner's 7th Symphony?  Or if anyone has written one themselves too.

I would love to read one, thank you!   :)

It would take weeks, if not months, for such an undertaking!

Do you have a copy of the (Nowak) score?  If you can read music, perhaps just listening to the work with score may open your ears and eyes as to "what is going on."
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 10, 2012, 02:09:47 PM
Listening to Kurt Eichhorn's recording of the fifth with the BRSO live from St. Florian which I discovered on Spotify and finding myself absolutely mesmerized. Had never heard of this guy before. Anyone familiar with his work? Berky says there are some more Bruckner recordings with him conducting the Bruckner Orchestra Linz but on labels I've never heard of. Are those legit and any good?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 10, 2012, 02:22:25 PM
Quote from: MishaK on February 10, 2012, 02:09:47 PM
Listening to Kurt Eichhorn's recording of the fifth with the BRSO live from St. Florian which I discovered on Spotify and finding myself absolutely mesmerized. Had never heard of this guy before. Anyone familiar with his work? Berky says there are some more Bruckner recordings with him conducting the Bruckner Orchestra Linz but on labels I've never heard of. Are those legit and any good?

Totally legit! He wasn't able to complete the cycle, due to death... but those recordings have a considerable and very sane following that consider him something of a G.Wand-like figure, when it comes to Bruckner. His fame never projected far beyond Bavaria/Austria, though.

They were on Camerata... and while we got some domestically at TOWER, others were imported from Japan.

The cover of the complete set (Sieghart, also very good, completes it, with a bit from Guschlbauer) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000A7XJVU/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B000A7XJVU) is ugly and reminds me of some semi-pirate labels, but it's still Camerata.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 13, 2012, 06:27:52 AM
Thanks, Jens. I'm not about to invest in another Bruckner cycle, though, since I have Skro on order and still need to get Inbal one of these days. I might track down that fifth on its own. Speaking of the Bruckner Orchester Linz, how is Dennis Russell Davies' cycle?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 13, 2012, 08:23:53 AM
Quote from: MishaK on February 13, 2012, 06:27:52 AM
Thanks, Jens. I'm not about to invest in another Bruckner cycle, though, since I have Skro on order and still need to get Inbal one of these days. I might track down that fifth on its own. Speaking of the Bruckner Orchester Linz, how is Dennis Russell Davies' cycle?

I didn't know Davies' had a cycle... only a 4th.
Skro is very good, too... A terrific first cycle (if it is your first) and reference to have. You'll enjoy that, I should think.
Inbal, well... if you want to cover the early editons.
Eichhorn, meanwhile, has two Fifths (I think) -- one on Capriccio with the BRSO; the other would be with Linz.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 13, 2012, 08:33:46 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 13, 2012, 08:23:53 AM
I didn't know Davies' had a cycle... only a 4th.

I have Davies in 2 and 3 conducting the Linz.

Edit: Just checked at Amazon. His cycle is complete...the individual discs really cheap.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 13, 2012, 09:27:34 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 13, 2012, 08:33:46 AM
I have Davies in 2 and 3 conducting the Linz.

Edit: Just checked at Amazon. His cycle is complete...the individual discs really cheap.

Sarge

So it is! Did you check Amazon.de? I found them there, but not on Amazon.com. And I don't remember the others coming out in the US edition of Arte Nova. Perhaps that was after Tower died. :-)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 13, 2012, 10:14:29 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 13, 2012, 08:23:53 AM
Skro is very good, too... A terrific first cycle (if it is your first) and reference to have. You'll enjoy that, I should think.
Inbal, well... if you want to cover the early editons.

Yes, I know. I've been listening to Skro incessantly on Spotify, which is why I decided I must have his cycle. It's brilliant. And, no it's not my first cycle. I have several. And, yes, I want the early versions. And, again, listening on Spotify I found Inbal much more convincing than Bosch or Young.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 13, 2012, 11:08:18 AM
Quote from: MishaK on February 13, 2012, 10:14:29 AM
Yes, I know. I've been listening to Skro incessantly on Spotify, which is why I decided I must have his cycle. It's brilliant. And, no it's not my first cycle. I have several. And, yes, I want the early versions. And, again, listening on Spotify I found Inbal much more convincing than Bosch or Young.

Oh, abso-f'in-lutely, that!  :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 13, 2012, 11:23:20 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 13, 2012, 09:27:34 AM
So it is! Did you check Amazon.de?

Yes.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 13, 2012, 05:59:36 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 13, 2012, 08:33:46 AM
I have Davies in 2 and 3 conducting the Linz.

So, how is he? I'm mostly interested in his 4th and 8th, actually, since he conducts the original versions of those.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 14, 2012, 01:34:36 AM
I only listened once many, many months ago. Don't have a memory of the performances. I'll give him another go soon and report back.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 21, 2012, 03:13:57 PM
Dudes!  Maybe some of you knew about this, but it was new to me:

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2011/07/bruckner-rock.html (http://www.therestisnoise.com/2011/07/bruckner-rock.html)

Some rock group STOLE the opening music from Bruckner's Fifth Symphony!   :o

Okay, maybe they thought of the confiscation as an homage!  0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 21, 2012, 06:34:57 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 21, 2012, 03:13:57 PM
Dudes!  Maybe some of you knew about this, but it was new to me:

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2011/07/bruckner-rock.html (http://www.therestisnoise.com/2011/07/bruckner-rock.html)

Some rock group STOLE the opening music from Bruckner's Fifth Symphony!   :o

Okay, maybe they thought of the confiscation as an homage!  0:)

A colleague of mine was recently very much fascinated by this. Unfortunately he got it 'wrong' in his head, and now always thinks that the rhythm in Bruckner is "wrong".

There are plenty such cases in music (and why not). Morrisey's "The Teachers Are Afraid Of The Pupils" is DSCH-5, for example. And not obscure and in one place, but throughout the song, front, back, and center.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 22, 2012, 07:14:13 AM
There was a Canadian indy band that used the rand des vaches from symphonie fantastique as a background ostinato in one of their songs. Name escapes me now.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on February 22, 2012, 04:15:00 PM

And of course, Pachelbel's Canon = Village People's Go West.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 29, 2012, 06:06:57 AM
I have spent several weeks relistening to the complete DGG Eugen Jochum set of Bruckner symphonies.

This is the series which introduced me to Bruckner almost 50 years ago!   :o  As a result, it is somewhat "imprinted" in me, i.e. other performances get compared to Jochum's

Nobody is waiting for me to say that all 9 works are great spiritual and psychological experiences.

What is always so tantalizing about Bruckner, especially upon repeated hearings, is the richness of what I call the musical unconscious in the works, i.e. the counterpoint, the secondary or tertiary themes or motifs in the background, or just simply the strings playing a complex tremolo chord.  One finds this ability in many great composers (Schoenberg comes to mind), but Bruckner's ability here is - for me at least - a source of wonder.

When one revisits such works over 5 decades, one's intellectual and emotional responses become ever more complex: accretions pile up, and in one sense an effort to forget everything that one's soul has linked to the works in the past years becomes essential.  To make any work seem exciting and new again, a dose of forgetfulness can be very handy!   0:)  Of course, simply hearing a new performance by an invigorating conductor can do the trick  (e.g. a performance a year or two ago of Mahler's Seventh with Boulez conducting in Chicago really revolutionized my perception of that work!)

And yet, one reason to listen to e.g. Bruckner's Second Symphony is that it does take you back to 1963, as well as to the early 1870's, and you experience both eras now in 2012.  Or none of this: you can simply enjoy following the lines and be amazed at the thoughts occuring to you via this supposedly "minor" work, which is much more major than you believed!   8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on March 29, 2012, 06:15:43 AM
I enjoyed the entire post, Cato, but esp.:

Quote from: Cato on March 29, 2012, 06:06:57 AM
. . . (e.g. a performance a year or two ago of Mahler's Seventh with Boulez conducting in Chicago really revolutionized my perception of that work!)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 29, 2012, 12:24:04 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 29, 2012, 06:15:43 AM
I enjoyed the entire post, Cato, but esp.:

Quote(e.g. a performance a year or two ago of Mahler's Seventh with Boulez conducting in Chicago really revolutionized my perception of that work!)


Yes, for a few moments - I came upon the performance in medias res - I thought I was hearing an unknown and early work by Anton Webern  :o , but quickly knew it was the Mahler Seventh.

On Bruckner: the eccentric and even revolutionary aspects of the symphonies still hold their power for me.  Consider the driving energy of the First Symphony,  the strange Scherzos of the Sixth and Eighth, the proto-Bartokian nature of the Ninth's Scherzo, and of course the expressivity of the Adagios (especially in the last 5 works, but the earlier ones are not to be ignored).

I was also struck again and again by the debt Mahler owes to Bruckner's Third Symphony.
This is understandable, since Mahler worked on a piano reduction of the work.

Eccentric musicologist Dika Newlin wrote a book 60 years ago or so called Bruckner, Mahler, Schoenberg where she analyzed the threads linking all 3 composers.  (She had been a student of Schoenberg's in fact.)  I have mentioned it before.  Recommended, even though I do not agree with everything in it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 29, 2012, 03:10:14 PM
Since I have been writing about Bruckner today, a reminder:

if you can make it to Toledo, Ohio (NOT Spain  8)  ) on April 15th, you can hear the Bruckner Third Symphony in Holy Rosary Cathedral there with the Toledo Symphony Orchestra performing.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_OG3i1o1f67E/R_ofYD_zAdI/AAAAAAAABw8/ALV4HX5Y_oA/s320/RosaryCathedral.jpg)



(http://pipedreams.publicradio.org/gallery/us_midwest/ohio/images/toledo_cathedral_skinner_lg.jpg)



Toledo also has one of the top 10 art museums in the nation, not to mention an excellent (and compact) zoo with things like a "Hippoquarium" and other unusual features.

As mentioned some time ago under "What Allan Is Playing," a Bruckner concert in the cathedral has become a tradition under Stefan Sanderling in the last decade.  I have been fortunate enough to hear several of them, and can highly recommend the concert.


http://www.toledosymphony.com/index.php?src=events&srctype=detail&refno=77&category=Mozart%20%26%20More (http://www.toledosymphony.com/index.php?src=events&srctype=detail&refno=77&category=Mozart%20%26%20More)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dundonnell on April 04, 2012, 04:40:20 PM
This has probably been discussed elsewhere but it would take far too long to check out ;D

My attention has been drawn to the recent concert in Berlin when Simon Rattle conducted the Bruckner 9th with the reconstructed fourth movement. I understand that he conducted the work again recently in New York. Bruce, I think that you were there ???

Having lived with the 9th ending with that glorious, heavenly Adagio for around fifty years I was exceedingly sceptical, even after reading this-

http://theclassicalreview.com/2012/02/rattle-berlin-philharmonic-deliver-bruckners-ninth-in-all-its-restored-majestic-glory/

and then I watched this-

http://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/2516/rattle-bruckner

I must confess that thirty seconds or so into the short excerpt from the finale when the brass chorale begins my eyes filled with tears :)  No one, but no one, has ever written for the brass with such sublime majesty as did Bruckner :) :)

Rattle has recorded the Ninth including this fourth movement for release by EMI-

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Anton-Bruckner-1824-1896-Symphonie-Nr-9-4-s%E4tzige-Version/hnum/2571066?SESSIONID=14b4acb310a945e850299f20f7bd5e58

Sold ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 04, 2012, 05:37:20 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on April 04, 2012, 04:40:20 PM

My attention has been drawn to the recent concert in Berlin when Simon Rattle conducted the Bruckner 9th with the reconstructed fourth movement.

Having lived with the 9th ending with that glorious, heavenly Adagio for around fifty years I was exceedingly sceptical, even after reading this-

http://theclassicalreview.com/2012/02/rattle-berlin-philharmonic-deliver-bruckners-ninth-in-all-its-restored-majestic-glory/

and then I watched this-

http://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/2516/rattle-bruckner

I must confess that thirty seconds or so into the short excerpt from the finale when the brass chorale begins my eyes filled with tears :)  No one, but no one, has ever written for the brass with such sublime majesty as did Bruckner :) :)

Sold ;D

40 years ago or so, an acquaintance of mine had access to the Library of Congress and photocopied the sketches of the finale for me: I waited and hoped for a competent composer/musicologist to complete the movement, since yes, it was obvious that a great deal of glorious music was present.

I know that the purists are against such things, but the various versions of the Finale sound convincing enough, much like the completion of Mahler's Tenth.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on April 04, 2012, 06:24:03 PM
Yes, I've been hoping for this recording for a while now. I'm not a great Rattle fan, but he was so convincing in Mahler 10 that I couldn't help believing he would do very well here too. Must reserve my copy now!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DieNacht on April 04, 2012, 09:44:37 PM
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2wp7342.jpg)

I´ve been listening to the Bruckner / Paternostro low-budget set in the last few days, admittedly partly just as "background music". I very much agree with the views of the musicweb-reviewer, including that this set has major flaws, in fact I´ve never heard so many orchestral errors, often quite embarrasing, in a compilation of recordings, and some of the symphonies and the Te Deum receive rather pedestrian performances also, or articulations I don´t agree with and find unispired, not worth going into. Paternostro is often quite good in making the string section sing, whereas the brass vary a lot and also don´t always follow the rest.

So far I´d say that the 5th and the 4th receive good and interesting performances, the 7th a reasonable play-through albeit apparently less romantically committed and more slender than I prefer. The 2nd is decent too, at times fine, but completely runs out of energy in the Finale and becomes curiously ghostly, with an incomprehensible decrease in the playing quality too. Many parts of the 8th, including the Adagio, have some intense moments and it is worth hearing. I´ll return to those, especially the 5th I liked a lot, though some recordings articulate its contrasts much more.

There doesn´t seem to be any chronological development as regards performance level; the better ones are scattered in the long concert cycle. The sound is very good, spacious, natural, and an enjoyment, with many details. The final moments of the 5th should have a better defined brass section, though. But some of the symphonies receive provincial performances that should be only of very local interest.

In its own way, the set has been illuminating to me as regards Bruckner playing and the efforts involved in obtaining really good performance/recording results. As an example, the 3rd is very uneven, but it does have its scattered moments, in spite of the defects and it often being rather dragged out or pedestrian. The Scherzo for instance is quite gripping.

Additional rehearsal and recording time, also pointing to highlights of the musical ongoings and sense of line in these works, could have made this cycle more valuable. Its content is moderately interesting as a supplement, but should never constitute the only recording of any Bruckner work in one´s collection.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 05, 2012, 05:05:14 AM
The Paternostro set has become rather infamous in the last years for its low quality of playing and some oddities in the conducting, as Die Nacht noted above.

Paternostro has a website:  http://www.robertopaternostro.com/en/biography/ (http://www.robertopaternostro.com/en/biography/)  He is not an amateur by any means.

One wonders why the set was released, if there are so many disconcerting errors in the performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DieNacht on April 05, 2012, 05:54:55 AM
I guess it´s a combination of local interest from the orchestra (the Classico label here in Denmark for instance has been an example of valuable recordings of rare repertoire etc. as well as many examples of "unnecessary" or poor promotion recital CDs) and that the Membran Label has specialized in cheap budget box sets, often sold in audio supermarkets etc. at a very low price (5-15 Euros). Since these are live recordings, they must have been rather inexpensive to produce. Still, there are some fine moments in the set though, and the sound is impressive. If one has heard a short excerpt of a Bruckner symphony and finds him interesting, this could be an impulse buy.

A record dealer I once worked for said rather regrettingly "Any item can be sold in some quantity" ...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dundonnell on April 06, 2012, 02:13:45 PM
Rattle on the Ninth Symphony, Fourth Movement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Z9Jlgh_gpSs
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sequentia on April 07, 2012, 09:21:52 AM
A sample of the Finale (as performed by Rattle and the BerlinPhil) can be found here:

http://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/2516/rattle-bruckner
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on April 28, 2012, 12:52:20 AM
(http://cdn.tower.jp/za/o/24/4988005715524.jpg)

http://tower.jp/item/3094799/ブルックナー:-交響曲選集

Japan-only release, but maybe an international one will follow in some foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on April 30, 2012, 10:26:39 AM
Quote from: Drasko on April 28, 2012, 12:52:20 AM
(http://cdn.tower.jp/za/o/24/4988005715524.jpg)

http://tower.jp/item/3094799/ブルックナー:-交響曲選集

Japan-only release, but maybe an international one will follow in some foreseeable future.

I have not heard Sinopoli's Bruckner, thanks for the heads up!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 30, 2012, 10:43:24 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on April 06, 2012, 02:13:45 PM
Rattle on the Ninth Symphony, Fourth Movement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Z9Jlgh_gpSs

Really fascinating. I love listening to Sir Simon!
Thanks for sharing, Colin.

I see that this is going to be released in just under a month. I'd certainly be interested in getting it...
[asin]B007O3QC8K[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on April 30, 2012, 12:10:13 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 30, 2012, 10:43:24 AM
Really fascinating. I love listening to Sir Simon!
Thanks for sharing, Colin.

I see that this is going to be released in just under a month. I'd certainly be interested in getting it...
[asin]B007O3QC8K[/asin]

I'm really looking forward to this one, just pre-ordered and await with anticipation. I've heard two other finale reconstructions (from 2005 and 2008) from the same team of editors (the law office of Samale/Mazzuca/Phillips/Cohrs :)).

Looks as though more changes and revisions were made to the coda. This is real exciting!

I have to say, hearing the music to the Bruckner 9 finale is an absolute revelation. To my mind, the music fits into the sound world of the B9, and is as important to the history of music as the unfinished Mahler 10. Attempts to perform it make sense.



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 30, 2012, 12:12:02 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 30, 2012, 12:10:13 PM
I'm really looking forward to this one, just pre-ordered and await with anticipation. I've heard two other finale reconstructions (from 2005 and 2008) from the same team of editors (the law office of Samale/Mazzuca/Phillips/Cohrs :)).

Looks as though more changes and revisions were made to the coda. This is real exciting!

I haven't heard any of the finale reconstructions yet, so am very excited as well! :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 03, 2012, 11:25:00 AM
Very nice.....Bruckners Abtei. :)

Anton Bruckner is one of my favourite Austrian composers, along with Mahler, Mozart and J. Strauss. His music is very passionate and thrilling, extremely impressive; it expresses deep beauty and great intensity, with a rich harmonic language, a splendid, powerful orchestration, an excellent counterpoint texture and beautiful, surprising timbric variations. I have always appreciated the expressive strenght Bruckner's pieces are full of.
Bruckner's characteristic use of the false climaxes in the symphonies is absolutely brilliant, I adore those powerfully emotional crescendi which sound flowing into great finali whereas the phrase ends with a pianissimo, a pause or a fast diminuendo; absolutely beautiful and striking.

It goes without saying that my favourite Bruckner interpreter is Herbert von Karajan; his recording of the symphonies is the best I've ever heard, really outstanding. Same speech for the Te Deum, which is very solemn and evocative.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on May 03, 2012, 04:57:07 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 03, 2012, 11:25:00 AM
Very nice.....Bruckners Abtei. :)

Anton Bruckner is one of my favourite Austrian composers, along with Mahler, Mozart and J. Strauss. His music is very passionate and thrilling, extremely impressive; it expresses deep beauty and great intensity, with a rich harmonic language, a splendid, powerful orchestration, an excellent counterpoint texture and beautiful, surprising timbric variations. I have always appreciated the expressive strenght Bruckner's pieces are full of.
Bruckner's characteristic use of the false climaxes in the symphonies is absolutely brilliant, I adore those powerfully emotional crescendi which sound flowing into great finali whereas the phrase ends with a pianissimo, a pause or a fast diminuendo; absolutely beautiful and striking.

It goes without saying that my favourite Bruckner interpreter is Herbert von Karajan; his recording of the symphonies is the best I've ever heard, really outstanding. Same speech for the Te Deum, which is very solemn and evocative.

Hmm,  you just made me realize that, while I tend to prefer other approaches than Karajan's,  he might indeed be just the ticket for Bruckner. The very elements of his style that usually don't appeal to me are the ones that probably work best here.   Any particular Karajan Bruckner recording you would suggest as appreciably superior to his others?  Or is it safe to just plop one on at random?

ETA:  your post on the Listening thread provided the answer.  The box set is cheap enough I'll be ordering before too long.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scion7 on May 03, 2012, 05:30:21 PM
Karajan and Haitink.  Haitink did a fine job on Te Deum btw.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on May 03, 2012, 06:55:45 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 03, 2012, 04:57:07 PMAny particular Karajan Bruckner recording you would suggest as appreciably superior to his others?  Or is it safe to just plop one on at random?

No. The essential Bruckner recordings of Karajan are symphonies 4 and 7 - on EMI, not Deutche Grammophon. His complete cycle is inconsistent, but I value 1 and 3 from that set. I haven't heard his recording of the Te Deum, but have a performance on DVD (along with symphonies 8 and 9) which is excellent.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on May 03, 2012, 08:21:27 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 03, 2012, 06:55:45 PM
No. The essential Bruckner recordings of Karajan are symphonies 4 and 7 - on EMI, not Deutche Grammophon. His complete cycle is inconsistent, but I value 1 and 3 from that set. I haven't heard his recording of the Te Deum, but have a performance on DVD (along with symphonies 8 and 9) which is excellent.

Well, 4 and 7 are the ones that seem to bring out the best in any conductor, and certainly the ones of which I have the most individual recordings.   I went ahead and ordered the set--it's cheap enough, especially compared to most other Bruckner cycles, and the ones you mention from the DG set are the ones I like the least (well, along with the Second), so perhaps K. will break them open for me.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 03, 2012, 08:47:11 PM
Heard this joke recently at a musical gathering.

"What your favourite Schumann symphony?"
"Bruckner 00!"
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on May 03, 2012, 08:51:55 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 03, 2012, 08:21:27 PMWell, 4 and 7 are the ones that seem to bring out the best in any conductor, and certainly the ones of which I have the most individual recordings.   I went ahead and ordered the set--it's cheap enough, especially compared to most other Bruckner cycles, and the ones you mention from the DG set are the ones I like the least (well, along with the Second), so perhaps K. will break them open for me.

May I ask, what recordings of 1-3 have you heard so far?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on May 03, 2012, 09:07:23 PM
 I have as individual recordings only the Tintner on Naxos for the first three symphonies (I could swear there's at least one more of the Third, but I can't remember what it is), and two complete sets--Jochum on EMI and Wand-Cologne WDR. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on May 03, 2012, 09:09:42 PM
For me, it's hard to beat Wand, Chailly, Bohm, and Giulini in Bruckner. Never liked Jochum or Karajan.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on May 03, 2012, 10:16:52 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 03, 2012, 09:07:23 PMI have as individual recordings only the Tintner on Naxos for the first three symphonies (I could swear there's at least one more of the Third, but I can't remember what it is), and two complete sets--Jochum on EMI and Wand-Cologne WDR.

Without having heard them, I'd say I would expect something interesting from Wand's early recordings (in my experience, he got increasingly stolid with age, though the Hanssler concert releases may be more lively).
I dislike Jochum's EMI set, and found Tintner mostly a bore - except for a lively 0 and 00.
The Furtwangler set on Music & Arts is well worth hearing, if you can tolerate the antique sound.
Skrowaczewski has been mentioned as very solid and idiomatic (plus he does the Nowak ed. of the 4th!), and is on my wishlist (though I was disappointed by his 0).

That Karajan DVD I mentioned is with the VPO, BTW, rather than the BPO with whom he did his studio recordings.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 04, 2012, 01:48:24 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 03, 2012, 04:57:07 PM
Hmm,  you just made me realize that, while I tend to prefer other approaches than Karajan's,  he might indeed be just the ticket for Bruckner. The very elements of his style that usually don't appeal to me are the ones that probably work best here.   Any particular Karajan Bruckner recording you would suggest as appreciably superior to his others?  Or is it safe to just plop one on at random?

ETA:  your post on the Listening thread provided the answer.  The box set is cheap enough I'll be ordering before too long.

Yes, I think it's rather hard to beat Karajan's recordings, he had a very special gift to interpret german/austrian music, and Bruckner's works don't make an exception to the rule at all. Karajan's Bruckner symphonies are absolutely worth buying, that set-box is so beautiful, powerful.
Anyway, he did an excellent job with the Wiener Philharmoniker as well, with which he recorded No.7 and No.8.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scion7 on May 04, 2012, 02:19:09 AM
Bohm/Vienna Philharmonic - Symphony No.3
Barenboim/Chicago Symphony-Symphony No.4
Haitink/Concertgebouw-Symphony 7 & Te Deum
Haitink/Concertgebouw-Symphony 8
Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic-Symphony 9  - all these on LP and like very much

I've got all the symphonies and masses on digital downloads -

Symphony No.1, No.4 & No.7 - Karajan/BPO
Symphony No."0" - Solti/CSO
Symphony No.2 - Giulini/Vienna Philharmonic
Symphony No.3 - Tinter, Royal Scottish National Orch
Symphony No.5 - Sinopoli, Staatskapelle Dresden
Symphony No.6 - Eichorn, Bruckner Orchester Linz
Symphony No.7 - Karajan, BPO
Symphony No.8 - Sinopoli, Staatskapelle Dresden
Symphony No.9 - Karajan, BPO

Te Deum - Haitink, Concertgebouw
3 Masses - Jochum, Bavarian Radio Symphony & Choir

String Quintet - Melos Quartet + Santiago

Piano works - Brunner, Schopper - nice disc from CPO



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 04, 2012, 12:28:02 PM
I just came across this on Amazon Deutschland: note it offers a Hans Rott String Quartet.

I am assuming it does not contain the Bruckner String Quintet, since the cover says "The Israel Quartet."  Does it therefore contain Bruckner's student quartet from the early 1860's?

[asin]9078740140[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2012, 01:14:39 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 04, 2012, 12:28:02 PM
I am assuming it does not contain the Bruckner String Quintet, since the cover says "The Israel Quartet."  Does it therefore contain Bruckner's student quartet from the early 1860's?

Yes, it's the C minor Quartet from 1862 WAB 111

http://www.abruckner.com/store/downloads/BrucknerRottSQ/


Sarge

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on May 04, 2012, 05:11:03 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2012, 01:14:39 PM
Yes, it's the C minor Quartet from 1862 WAB 111

http://www.abruckner.com/store/downloads/BrucknerRottSQ/


Sarge

The Quintet and Quartet were recorded for Naxos together with the Intermezzo for Quintet and the Rondo for Quartet movements (rejected movements for the main works, IIRC) by the Fine Arts Quartet--a recording I like immensely.  The second viola for the Quintet and Intermezzo is Gil Sharon.

In followup to last night's comment, the recording of the Third I couldn't remember but did have was Norrington's--which, despite the fact that I like his other Bruckner recordings, didn't really impress me that much. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on May 06, 2012, 10:12:49 AM
I can't wait to get Rattle's new Bruckner 9 with the finale. Below are what I feel are commendable performances with an earlier edition of the finale by Nicola Samale, Giuseppe Mazzuca, John A. Phillips, and Benjamin-Gunnar Cohrs.

Both of the following recordings have their rough spots, but are worth it to hear the finale within the context of the other movements, in a very convincing manner. I also like Harnoncourt's lecture with about 18 minutes of the Finale music, in unedited form.



(http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/310bruck.9eichhorn.jpg)
Kurt Eichhorn, Bruckner Orchester Linz
Camerata 30CM-275-6 (2 CDs). TT: 92:47. Finale: 30:11


(http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/310bruck.9red.jpg)
Friedemann Layer, Musikalische Akademie des Nationaltheater-Orchesters Mannheim e.V.
Deutschlandradio Kultur (2 CDs). TT: 83:24. Finale: 25:29 (available from www.abruckner.com)

I read Richard Lehnert's review of Simon Rattle's concert Carnegie Hall on 2/24/12:

QuoteI waited a long time for this performance: the first on US soil of Bruckner's Symphony 9 with any edition of the completion of the Finale by Nicola Samale, John A. Phillips, Benjamin-Gunnar Cohrs, and Giuseppe Mazzuca (SPCM), and the first anywhere of a four-movement 9th by a first-rank conductor and orchestra, in this case Sir Simon Rattle and the Berlin Philharmonic. I sat in seat K-16, on the right side of the Parquet (orchestra or floor section) of Carnegie Hall, and so was even more grateful that Rattle had split the Berlin's first and second violin sections into antiphonal choirs, left and right. It beautifully clarified Bruckner's even-handed writing for the two sections. I don't think I have ever heard an orchestra of such finesse wedded to such power. The sheer volume of sound in the hall was almost overwhelming.
Rattle clearly deeply feels the power of this work, and was able to convey that to us through the orchestra—I don't think I've ever seen so clear an example of a conductor holding or reserving, for a hundred or so musicians, a common space into or through which could be collected or focused what must have been their many different feelings and thoughts about this music. The ongoing, everyday miracle of the modern symphony orchestra—so many playing not only coherently, but with great delicacy, as one—was once again made manifest.

That said, I found the performance itself a strangely mixed bag. In the first and third movements, Rattle's considerable range of dynamics was movingly effective, and I think his Scherzo may be the best I've heard—overpowering and hellish, and never lacking in precision. If Scherzo this was, it was one of absolute dead seriousness. Throughout the symphony, in fact, the Berliners' precision and control and power seemed almost superhuman. I agree with Bruckner Journal editor Ken Ward, however; as he pointed out in his excellent review on Bachtrack, the orchestra's relentless sostenuto playing does somewhat mask the inner voices and some of the subtler counterpoint. Perhaps it's a holdover from or an institutional memory of the Karajan decades . . .

It was the performance of the Finale itself that I found least satisfying. It seemed episodic and tentative, with awkward transitions, adding up to something less than the sum of its parts. This was not a weakness of the uncompleted Finale itself, or of the movement as completed by SPCM—I find the recordings of various editions of the SPCM completion conducted by Friedemann Layer, Kurt Eichhorn, Johannes Wildner, Daniel Harding, and Marcus Bosch to hang together more seamlessly and committedly, and to make more internal sense, than did either of the Rattle/Berlin performances I heard (at Carnegie on February 24, and the live webcast from the Berlin Philharmonie of February 9, the latter archived here and viewable for €9.90). But, as Rattle himself said in his video introduction to the live webcast on the BPO's website, there is no performance tradition for the Finale—the movement was entirely new to the orchestra, which had only a few rehearsals of it before the concert. It will be interesting to hear what EMI's engineers and editors assemble for the CD edition, to be released May 22 (Wagner's birthday), from the three Berlin performances and a patch session.

But while I expected more from such a fine conductor and orchestra, I was happy to hear them performing this music at all. And this newest, 2011 edition of the SPCM Finale, with newly condensed coda, really does work beautifully. The realization of the completers that Bruckner's remark about concluding the symphony with a quotation of the "Alleluia" from "the second movement" is likely to have indicated not the eventual second movement, the Scherzo (as long assumed, though that never quite made sense), but the rising figure on trumpets beginning in bar 5 of the Adagio (which may well still have been the second movement when Bruckner made the remark), must have been one of those forehead-slapping moments: Of course! I think it works wonderfully.

A special treat for me was a long lunch with John A. Phillips, one of the four members of the SPCM team. I felt fortunate to be able to hear his stories of the various stages of the completion, and of the discovery of just how much of the Finale Bruckner had completed, and how many of those pages had survived, and how many sketches applied to the missing coda, from the man who, as much as anyone, has discovered those many connections.

—Richard Lehnert

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on May 06, 2012, 06:23:44 PM
Thanks for quoting that great review, Leo. I only hope they somehow rescue the performance in the edit....


Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 04, 2012, 05:11:03 PMThe Quintet and Quartet were recorded for Naxos together with the Intermezzo for Quintet and the Rondo for Quartet movements (rejected movements for the main works, IIRC) by the Fine Arts Quartet--a recording I like immensely.  The second viola for the Quintet and Intermezzo is Gil Sharon.

That Naxos disc really is a great collection. My previous encounter with the Quintet was a recording by the Vienna Philharmonic Quintet, an outfit whose recordings I have sadly learned to avoid.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on May 11, 2012, 05:37:07 PM
Quote from: Drasko on April 28, 2012, 12:52:20 AM
(http://cdn.tower.jp/za/o/24/4988005715524.jpg)

http://tower.jp/item/3094799/ブルックナー:-交響曲選集

Japan-only release, but maybe an international one will follow in some foreseeable future.

Oooh! Will have to try to get this. I love his 5th.

Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 30, 2012, 10:43:24 AM
Really fascinating. I love listening to Sir Simon!
Thanks for sharing, Colin.

I see that this is going to be released in just under a month. I'd certainly be interested in getting it...
[asin]B007O3QC8K[/asin]

This will be interesting, as it is the latest and greatest revision of the SMPC finale completion, which has only improved with each iteration. I might even get it, even though Sir Simon still owes me money that I paid for some very expensive BPO tickets when he performed a wretched rendition of the first three movements.

Quote from: Scion7 on May 04, 2012, 02:19:09 AM
Piano works - Brunner, Schopper - nice disc from CPO

Really? You like this? I found it completely unlistenable. Yes, there is something to be said for using a fortepiano in certain repertoire. But this tinny piece of c*r*a*p merely masks for the performers' lack of expressive abilities. There is another disc of the solo piano repertoire with Fumiko Shiraga which I find much more successful. Also includes a transcription of the adagio of the 7th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DieNacht on May 11, 2012, 07:45:30 PM
QuoteReally? You like this? I found it completely unlistenable.



Me too  ... :D

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on May 24, 2012, 07:18:37 PM
Ralph Moore over at MusicWeb has posted a positive review of Rattle's new Bruckner CD, though he has a couple of quibbles with the first movement, and laments the omission of a telling passage from the new version of the finale.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/May12/Bruckner9_Rattle_9529692.htm

I don't think I knew about the Dresden Amen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_amen) before (employed in the adagio). Instantly recognised it from the Mendelssohn Reformation symphony, of course.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on May 26, 2012, 09:55:34 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 24, 2012, 07:18:37 PM
Ralph Moore over at MusicWeb has posted a positive review of Rattle's new Bruckner CD, though he has a couple of quibbles with the first movement, and laments the omission of a telling passage from the new version of the finale.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/May12/Bruckner9_Rattle_9529692.htm

I don't think I knew about the Dresden Amen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_amen) before (employed in the adagio). Instantly recognised it from the Mendelssohn Reformation symphony, of course.

Much thanks for the link! I just recieved this CD in the mail, and look forward to listening to it very soon!

8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2012, 02:24:41 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 27, 2012, 02:19:32 AM

Notes from the 2012 Dresden Music Festival ( 5 )
Dresden's Bruckner and their Thielemann

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IUbUdRChWCQ/T7yS92NSuXI/AAAAAAAACA0/DaOD9FI901I/s1600/notes-from-the-dresden-music-festival4.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_kV7LgERcJg/T8C2k67hSRI/AAAAAAAACHU/1UFHHkbd2Ew/s1600/Semperoper_Dresden_jfl_1.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/bach-death-and-antihistamines.html (http://hhttp://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/bach-death-and-antihistamines.html)

The links don't work, Jens.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on May 27, 2012, 04:03:08 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2012, 02:24:41 AM
The links don't work, Jens.

Sarge

Thanks for pointing that out.

edit: links fixed

Notes from the 2012 Dresden Music Festival ( 5 )
Dresden's Bruckner and their Thielemann

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IUbUdRChWCQ/T7yS92NSuXI/AAAAAAAACA0/DaOD9FI901I/s1600/notes-from-the-dresden-music-festival4.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_kV7LgERcJg/T8C2k67hSRI/AAAAAAAACHU/1UFHHkbd2Ew/s1600/Semperoper_Dresden_jfl_1.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/notes-from-2012-dresden-music-festival_26.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/notes-from-2012-dresden-music-festival_26.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 28, 2012, 07:58:23 PM
Just taken delivery of the EMI Rattle Ninth and given it a first spin.

My first impression is overwhelmingly positive. I know the Naxos Wildner recording of the Ninth with a reconstructed finale well, and I like that recording a lot. However I think I'm going to prefer Rattle's version for a few reasons.

Firstly, it's the latest version of the 4th movement reconstruction, I haven't noticed major differences from the earlier reconstruction of the Wildner recording, but you might as well have the latest one!

Secondly, the recording is much better, the EMI recording is very immediate and close and brings out the power of the orchestra, but it also brings out, in a way I haven't heard on recordings of any other Bruckner symphonies, the way that the accompanying figures have a life and vitality of their own, and don't always complement the main musical material (perhaps Bruckner was making his accompanying figures more independent as a feature of the style of his last years).

Thirdly, Rattle seems to play all four movements in the same way (perhaps this is a function of having all the movements on one disk, whereas the Naxos has the finale on another disk). Wildner seems to play the first three movements in his recording as a finished piece, and then add on a finale which is more tentative. Rattle by contrast plays the finale full-bloodedly, but in the first three movements he doesn't gloss over the ragged bits.

I think it's important to remember (as Robert Simpson pointed out) that the Ninth is essentially a draft in all its movements. I think that in the latest reconstruction we now have a fair approximation of the penultimate draft of all four movements that Bruckner was working towards (much the same could be said for Mahler's Tenth). In both cases what the composer would have produced as the final version would have been incomparably more wonderful than what we have as reconstructions, but we are lucky to have the reconstructions.

(One final thought, Bruckner could easily have finished his Ninth if he hadn't be distracted by the pleas of so-called friends and helpers asking him to revise his earlier symphonies. He wasted several of the last years of life on these endeavours).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on May 28, 2012, 09:31:55 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 28, 2012, 07:58:23 PM(One final thought, Bruckner could easily have finished his Ninth if he hadn't be distracted by the pleas of so-called friends and helpers asking him to revise his earlier symphonies. He wasted several of the last years of life on these endeavours).
Unless one prefers the revisions ;)

I'm listening to the Rattle now (adagio). When playing the CD in my PC, the audio began to stop-start during the first movement. I think my OfficeScan was trying to check the disc (work PC, can't turn it off). I think this may be a "mixed media" disc - note the liner message about using the disc for access to special EMI stuff I have no interest in. I ripped the disc and am listening to the rip.

Not fan of this reading so far. Rattle doesn't have much intensity, and keeps tweaking the tempo in a way that damages the flow of the music. I think I will have to finally buy the Wildner soon.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 28, 2012, 10:11:26 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 28, 2012, 09:31:55 PM
Unless one prefers the revisions ;)


Nah, earliest version except for 4 and 8.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on May 28, 2012, 10:38:10 PM
I read an interesting article a few months ago which argued, from looking at the handwritten corrections to later editions, among other things, that the attribution of the revisions to Bruckner's friends or "weak will" may have been overstated. I really wish I'd bookmarked the damned thing!


EDIT: I still can't find it, but I think this may be a reference to it (transcribed from The New Bruckner at GoogleBooks):

QuoteThe matter of the tempo modifications requires clarification. It is evident from Mus. Hs. 19.479 that tempo indications in the outer movements have been added at various times and in various hands. Robert Haas's 1944 edition omitted most of these modifications, and his successor Leopold Nowak was fiercely criticized for re-admitting some of them in his 1954 edition, most notably by Deryck Cooke and Robert Simpson.[35] But Rüdiger Bornhöft's 2003 Revisionsbericht identifies many of the added tempo directions and time signature changes rejected by Haas as being in Bruckner's handwriting after all, including the very directions singled out for the angriest complaints from Simpson and Cooke, the Molto animato at bar 233 in the first movement and the rit. at bar 7 in the Finale together with the a tempo two bars later, directions repeated in all the later appearances of the Finale's main theme.[36] At a stroke, Bornhöft has undermined a long-established tradition of critical commentary in the English-speaking world characterized by righteous indignation directed against the Schalks and, to an even greater extent, against Nowak.

READ THIS: Link to review of The New Bruckner: http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.11.17.4/mto.11.17.4.ramirez.html


EDIT: Another fascinating tidbit, this time from Alex Ross's blog:

QuoteAt the end of his life, Bruckner was seen reciting the Lord's Prayer at the top of his voice, repeating each line for emphasis.

It sounds like he was planning to set it to music  :o
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on May 29, 2012, 12:09:47 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 28, 2012, 07:58:23 PM

Thirdly, Rattle seems to play all four movements in the same way (perhaps this is a function of having all the movements on one disk, whereas the Naxos has the finale on another disk). Wildner seems to play the first three movements in his recording as a finished piece, and then add on a finale which is more tentative. Rattle by contrast plays the finale full-bloodedly, but in the first three movements he doesn't gloss over the ragged bits.

That's the key to the finale, I think, because it finally undoes the myth that has become the 9th... as a Symphony that was allegedly, somehow "really" finished with the slow movement. And that outlook understandable if completely wrong, makes it a different work than when it has the finale (or even if you only think of the finale). (Tacking on the Te Deum is nonsense and doesn't count.) I think that's Rattle's whole point, too, and I'm glad it can be heard in the performance.

QuoteI think it's important to remember (as Robert Simpson pointed out) that the Ninth is essentially a draft in all its movements. I think that in the latest reconstruction we now have a fair approximation of the penultimate draft of all four movements that Bruckner was working towards (much the same could be said for Mahler's Tenth). In both cases what the composer would have produced as the final version would have been incomparably more wonderful than what we have as reconstructions, but we are lucky to have the reconstructions.

Well... hmm... yes, but then Bruckner's own (rather than advice-stipulated) changes to a complete score are modest compared to Mahler. What we have of the Bruckner finale is complete, much more so and for more of those parts than M10. On the other hand, there's nothing missing in M10 -- even if it's just two staves to go by, whereas in Bruckner there are actual lacunae.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 29, 2012, 03:24:54 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 28, 2012, 10:38:10 PM
I read an interesting article a few months ago which argued, from looking at the handwritten corrections to later editions, among other things, that the attribution of the revisions to Bruckner's friends or "weak will" may have been overstated. I really wish I'd bookmarked the damned thing!


EDIT: I still can't find it, but I think this may be a reference to it (transcribed from The New Bruckner at GoogleBooks):

READ THIS: Link to review of The New Bruckner: http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.11.17.4/mto.11.17.4.ramirez.html

I know the dangers of romanticising artists, and I certainly don't blame Nowak for besmirching Bruckner's work. However I have listened to the original and at least one of the revised versions of all the symphonies where different versions exist, and I do prefer the originals in all cases except 4 and 8, where it seems Bruckner did improve on his first thoughts. I'm not enough of an expert to die in a ditch over tempo markings!

The first Bruckner I ever heard was Karajan conducting the 3rd in the 1890 version. I was blown away by the sound, but couldn't understand the structure. It wasn't until I heard the original and few years ago I thought "Oh, that's what he meant, then he went and hacked big chunks out of it."  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mszczuj on May 29, 2012, 03:44:57 AM
I must say that for me the most appropriate way to listen to the 9th is listen to the preserved fragments of Finale after Adagio. So I cut these fragments from Harnoncourt recording and made new single record with all what is really composed by Bruckner. It works better for me than reconstructions.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DieNacht on May 29, 2012, 04:06:55 AM
QuoteQuote from: eyeresist on May 28, 2012, 10:38:10 PM
I read an interesting article a few months ago which argued, from looking at the handwritten corrections to later editions, among other things, that the attribution of the revisions to Bruckner's friends or "weak will" may have been overstated. I really wish I'd bookmarked the damned thing!


EDIT: I still can't find it, but I think this may be a reference to it (transcribed from The New Bruckner at GoogleBooks):

READ THIS: Link to review of The New Bruckner: http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.11.17.4/mto.11.17.4.ramirez.html

I know the dangers of romanticising artists, and I certainly don't blame Nowak for besmirching Bruckner's work. However I have listened to the original and at least one of the revised versions of all the symphonies where different versions exist, and I do prefer the originals in all cases except 4 and 8, where it seems Bruckner did improve on his first thoughts. I'm not enough of an expert to die in a ditch over tempo markings!

The first Bruckner I ever heard was Karajan conducting the 3rd in the 1890 version. I was blown away by the sound, but couldn't understand the structure. It wasn't until I heard the original and few years ago I thought "Oh, that's what he meant, then he went and hacked big chunks out of it."

Exactly my thoughts too. Viva Inbal ! in the 3rd.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on May 29, 2012, 07:37:41 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 29, 2012, 03:24:54 AM

The first Bruckner I ever heard was Karajan conducting the 3rd in the 1890 version. I was blown away by the sound, but couldn't understand the structure. It wasn't until I heard the original and few years ago I thought "Oh, that's what he meant, then he went and hacked big chunks out of it."  ;D

Hmm, obviously a case of de gustibus here.  I've been playing my way through the Karajan boxset these last few days, and must say Karajan's performance is the first Third I've actually liked, although the Second rather sputtered (Karajan seems to have come up with his own list of cuts and restorations for the Second), and the Seventh, which I just finished a few moments ago,  was a complete letdown: Karajan didn't seem to be able to get his scherzo on in that one.   Now have the Ninth starting to finish off the set.  (And I did like K.'s Eighth.)  (Anyone know which versions Wand used in the Cologne set of recordings?)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2012, 11:52:04 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 29, 2012, 07:37:41 AMAnyone know which versions Wand used in the Cologne set of recordings?


SYMPHONY #1 VIENNA 1891 BRUCKNER
SYMPHONY #2 ORIG VERSION 1877 HAAS
SYMPHONY #3 REV VERSION 1889 NOWAK
SYMPHONY #4 1ST DEF VERSION HAAS
SYMPHONY #5 HAAS
SYMPHONY #6 NOWAK
SYMPHONY #7 HAAS
SYMPHONY #8 REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS
SYMPHONY #9 NOWAK



Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on May 29, 2012, 11:56:47 AM
Sarge, you de man.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2012, 11:59:03 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 29, 2012, 07:37:41 AM
Hmm, obviously a case of de gustibus here.

Indeed. I love the late revisions of 1 & 3 (not that I dislike the originals).

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on May 29, 2012, 05:00:30 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2012, 11:52:04 AM

SYMPHONY #1 VIENNA 1891 BRUCKNER
SYMPHONY #2 ORIG VERSION 1877 HAAS
SYMPHONY #3 REV VERSION 1889 NOWAK
SYMPHONY #4 1ST DEF VERSION HAAS
SYMPHONY #5 HAAS
SYMPHONY #6 NOWAK
SYMPHONY #7 HAAS
SYMPHONY #8 REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS
SYMPHONY #9 NOWAK



Sarge

Thank you!

Karajan seems to be very similar.  The only major differences are the first two, and possibly the Third and Eighth
.
The versions used by Karajan according to the DG liner notes
1--Original version, Linz 1866 ed. Haas with minor emendations from the Nowak 1953 edition
2--The only time the liner notes specify Karajan's own editorial decisions.
Quote"Karajan conflates the original 1872 version ed. Haas with 1876 Bruckner and Herbeck revision, ed. Nowak...Karajan observes the following cuts.  First movement coda between figs. R and S; slow movement between figs. C and E; and the Scherzo's repeats.  In the Finale, by contrast, Karajan plays the complete text, ignoring the proposed cut in the coda and restoring 23 bars after fig. U."
3--1889 Bruckner and Franz Schalk revision of the versions of 1873, 1876-7; ed Nowak, omitting additional changes made by Schalk for printing of the 1889 edition.
4, 5, 8, 7, and 9--DG is slightly more verbose, but apparently they are the same versions as used by Wand.
8--Revised 1890 edition, ed. Haas with material restored from 1887 original version
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on May 30, 2012, 05:45:49 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 29, 2012, 07:37:41 AMHmm, obviously a case of de gustibus here.  I've been playing my way through the Karajan boxset these last few days, and must say Karajan's performance is the first Third I've actually liked,

Yep, my favourite too. Certainly a better performance than Tintner :P

Re revisions, Bruckner is not the only composer to do such a thing (RVW 2, Sibelius 5 to name but two). In most cases, cutting is involved. Hearing the cut passages back in is a interesting novelty, but I generally prefer the concise structure of the later version.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 30, 2012, 08:26:33 PM
Another reason to deplore Bruckner's later revisions is that even if you accept that his earlier works were inadequate in structure (which I don't), there no reason to think that Bruckner could usefully rewrite a symphony in an earlier style at the time he was writing his last works. The stylistic evolution in between makes it unlikely he could achieve any better result revising (and I don't believe that he did). He would have been much better off continuing to write his later works. Imagine if instead of a Ninth that had to completed by musicologists over a century later, he had finished it and started a Tenth! I would trade all his revisions of the 1880s and 90s for that.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 09, 2012, 05:53:27 PM
Chiming in with my current overview of the 8th: three versions by Klaus Tennstedt: BSO, LPO and BPO. In that order.

First on top is the Boston performance, a knockout, enthusiastic performance : gleaming, dynamic, propulsive and impulsive. And fantastically played. "Of the moment" in the best sense. Second is a quite amazing LPO live version. Tennstedt lurches into the phrases and the orchestra follows him every step of the way. Very, very impressive. The 8th as you wish the next concert will sound like. Third and last, the strangely aloof, unconnected Berlin concert version barely a month removed from the London one (a Testament release). Marmoreal, impressively conceived but you can hear the restraint. Conductor and orchestra going their own way without listening to each other. Clearly the orchestra think they know better than the maestro.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on June 10, 2012, 04:46:52 AM
Nice to see our Boston band giving satisfaction.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Papy Oli on July 23, 2012, 12:31:57 PM
Haitink / LSO Live / Bruckner 4 is in full streaming here (http://www.radio4.nl/plaatpaal-player/206/bruckner-symfonie-nr-4-bernard-haitink.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: madaboutmahler on July 23, 2012, 12:45:06 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on July 23, 2012, 12:31:57 PM
Haitink / LSO Live / Bruckner 4 is in full streaming here (http://www.radio4.nl/plaatpaal-player/206/bruckner-symfonie-nr-4-bernard-haitink.html)

Thank you for this, Oli - listening to some of it now! :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 23, 2012, 01:06:22 PM
I failed to connect with that one, except in the Finale, where Haitink's experience clearly shows - actually one of the best I have heard in that movement. The rest is well structured and confidently played, but in a curiously reserved and undemonstrative way.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on July 23, 2012, 06:23:59 PM
Quote from: André on July 23, 2012, 01:06:22 PMThe rest is well structured and confidently played, but in a curiously reserved and undemonstrative way.

Sounds like Haitink to me :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 24, 2012, 05:10:43 PM
Right, but Haitink seconde manière ! He was much more impulsive in the fifties and sixties. A look at the timings of his 8th from 1969, 1981, 1995, and 2005 will show that his interpretation gained 16 minutes (20%) in the interim. Of course it's not all  a matter of speed. Rythmic tranchency and harmonic edge gave way to heft and space, with the extra time devoted to an ever fuller sound, especially in phrase or paragraph endings. Which is not to say he was too 'light' and progressively became 'heavier' as years made wrinkles sag and energy wane.

IOW this is very much a case like Giulini's, once a mercurial, volatile conductor who in a matter of a very few short years became much more interested in fleshing out the harmonic fabric than delineating the rythmic bones and muscles underneath. With some conductors this has never been an 'issue': Munch, Stokowski, Monteux, Toscanini, Karajan, Szell, Paray, Markevitch never wavered in their personal ethos over the 'flesh' vs 'bone' conundrum. In a few cases there was an abrupt change: Giulini, Haitink, C. Davis, Klemperer, Celibidache, Böhm (in his very last years), Walter, Scherchen, Bernstein. The reason may have been failing powers, lower energy levels, or simply the realization that after a lifetime of Nikisch-Strauss-Toscanini-Szell devotion to the god Rythm, in their last years they simply realized that after paying their dues to it they felt free to explore a different way of music-making.

Honestly it's hard to tell and generalizations such as I have made only serve to show that there is no single truth in terms of interpretative decisions. 'Prima la parole, doppie la musica'. Words first, music second. In this particular context I'd link Parole with melody-harmony and Rythm with the rythmic aspect of music.

When it's all been said and done, categorizing an artist's response to an evolving world is valid only inasmuch as it serves to present a snapshot at a given time of his/her development.

Eyeresist: in a nutshell you are singularly right on. But there are all those peripheric aspect to consider. An endlesssly fascinating discussion...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Herman on July 25, 2012, 05:35:25 AM
Quote from: André on July 24, 2012, 05:10:43 PM
Right, but Haitink seconde manière ! He was much more impulsive in the fifties and sixties. A look at the timings of his 8th from 1969, 1981, 1995, and 2005 will show that his interpretation gained 16 minutes (20%) in the interim. Of course it's not all  a matter of speed. Rythmic tranchency and harmonic edge gave way to heft and space, with the extra time devoted to an ever fuller sound, especially in phrase or paragraph endings. Which is not to say he was too 'light' and progressively became 'heavier' as years made wrinkles sag and energy wane.


This is not a characterisation that rings a recognition bell with me. In the time Haitink used to perform any given program three times in Amsterdam (thursday, friday and sunday afternoon) the sunday crowd usually got the best performance (even though Thursday night is traditionally the connoisseur night): a couple of minutes longer, more passionate and expressive.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 03, 2012, 06:08:33 PM
Hi, Herman, nice to hear from you. I bow to your knowledge of Haitink's artistry ( one of my most revered conductors), and can only vouch for what I have heard from recordings. I have been at the Concertgebouw four times, but NEVER under Haitink  :'(.

The eighth twice under Celibidache and close in time (September 1993 in Munich and April 1994 in Lisbon). I have another Celi-MPO version from Tokyo's Suntory Hall, 1990 vintage. On average they clock in at 20, 16, 32 and 31 minutes. Three different venues, therefore in theory three different occasions to aurally observe the famed epiphenomena develop. Well, they do have slightly different outlines, but the core is the same: a telluric Bruckner instead of a volcanic or mystic one. My favourites are the Lisbon and Tokyo ones, but the Munich is also excellent - almost too much so - as much echt-Celi as could be conceived. Having been acquainted with Celi's 100 minutes Eight for over 15 years, I have come to terms with what at first hearing was absolutely intolerable.

When I put a Celi MPO 8th in the machine, I simply shelve any other interpretation I know and let myself be sucked in the conductor's (composer's ?) conception. Between Munich, Tokyo and Lisbon, I prefer the latter. A wee bit more spontaneity than in MunichI, a wee bit more freedom than in Tokyo. Very slight differences. But over the course of a 100 minutes work they tend to accumulate and a winner emerges.

Celi's 8th is not what I suggest for a first hearing. There are at least a dozen others I would suggest. Having said that, Celi's Munich performances of Bruckner give a very special view of the composer, his music, his era, ethos, culture and whole musical background that no other conductor comes near to suggest.

A BEST  8th . Nahhhh. I doesn't exist. Any decent collection needs 4-6 version of suitably different views. A Celi MPO belongs to it.
Title: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on August 03, 2012, 09:37:40 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 28, 2012, 09:31:55 PM
I think I will have to finally buy the Wildner soon.

Don't waste your money. Wildner is an awfully dull conductor. If you're not convinced by Rattle and are looking for a more compellingly performed completion of the finale you should check out the new recording of the Carragan completion by Gerd Schaller. Really outstanding performance on all levels. I actually do like Rattle's take on the SMPC version, and the first three movements are much better than what I heard him do live (and much better than his abysmally static fourth). Otherwise your options are a reasonably solid earlier version of SMPC with Markus Bosch or the earliest version of SMPC with Inbal. But the latter was written I think before some additional original fragments were unearthed.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 04, 2012, 09:43:06 AM
Quote from: André on August 03, 2012, 06:08:33 PM

A BEST  8th . Nahhhh. I doesn't exist.

Oh rubbish, of course it does.  It's whichever one I choose to play today.   ;D

Celi Munich, or Stuttgart, or Tokyo (sorry, don't have Lisbon)  will be on other days.  They often are played - well, not Stuttgart so much, but the others.  Today it's a much more ordinary, even a foursquare version:  Heinz Rögner, RSO Berlin.  There's nothing wrong with this performance, there's just nothing monumental or brilliantly individual either.  And that's why I like it (and some others in the same vein) now and then; I get to hear the glories of Bruckner without some stunning genius of a conductor intruding his (or her, meaning Simone Young) interpretive ideas into the mix.  Helps me keep the dividing line clear, between what is (insert name of genius conductor) and what is Bruckner. 

Frankly, that's the trouble with my Bruckner collection.  It's too big.  I wound up accumulating so many "special" and "brilliant" performances, as well as some "ordinary" ones, that I'm now at the level where the question isn't so much "Which Bruckner shall I play?" as it is "Whose Bruckner shall I play?"  I'm not at all sure that's a good thing.  (But it doesn't stop me accumulating yet more, which will be relevant to my next post....)   
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 04, 2012, 09:52:46 AM
Okay, here's that other post about accumulating too many versions, and how ain't no way I'm stoppin' now....

I've slipped a bit out of touch, I just discovered last night.  First, I discovered that they finally released Simone Young's First, for which I had been waiting (but obviously forgot to check on for at least six months now).  Okay, no problem, it's ordered, onwanrd and all that....

But then I came across the following, about which I knew absolutely nothing:


[asin] B007S6R3E0[/asin]


Turns out it's a whole new cycle, and in addition to the Second (which is ordered just on principle, as I adore the Second), he's got sets of 0/1 and 4/7 out there, and apparently plans to do the rest.  (It's CPO.  Do they ever leave a planned set unfinished?)

The reviews I've seen (quoted on Amazon and Arkiv) are mostly gushing with praise.  My question:  Has anybody here heard any of these, or heard any rumors, and if so what's the consensus?  Note - won't stop me buying at least those I collect with wild abandon anyway, like 0 and 1, but might make me hold up on the 'lesser' (to me) numbers.  ('Lesser' = 'less critical to satisfying my ravenous appetites.')



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 04, 2012, 04:04:04 PM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 04, 2012, 09:43:06 AM
Oh rubbish, of course it does.  It's whichever one I choose to play today.   ;D

Celi Munich, or Stuttgart, or Tokyo (sorry, don't have Lisbon)  will be on other days.  They often are played - well, not Stuttgart so much, but the others.  Today it's a much more ordinary, even a foursquare version:  Heinz Rögner, RSO Berlin.  There's nothing wrong with this performance, there's just nothing monumental or brilliantly individual either.  And that's why I like it (and some others in the same vein) now and then; I get to hear the glories of Bruckner without some stunning genius of a conductor intruding his (or her, meaning Simone Young) interpretive ideas into the mix.  Helps me keep the dividing line clear, between what is (insert name of genius conductor) and what is Bruckner. 

Frankly, that's the trouble with my Bruckner collection.  It's too big.  I wound up accumulating so many "special" and "brilliant" performances, as well as some "ordinary" ones, that I'm now at the level where the question isn't so much "Which Bruckner shall I play?" as it is "Whose Bruckner shall I play?"  I'm not at all sure that's a good thing.  (But it doesn't stop me accumulating yet more, which will be relevant to my next post....)

I like the Rögner too, but not quite as much as his splendid fourth. BTW the Tokyo Celi is also with the MPO, recorded live from Suntory Hall. A different acoustic experience.

'Whose Bruckner?'  is also my dilemma. I ended up listening to all my versions of all the symphonies, as listening to just one only makes me clamour for more. And more... After over a year of listening to the 8th I'm almost done. Right now listening to Sinopoli. The last one will be Prêtre. A certain fatigue set in around recording # 50 last spring and I was ohne Bruckner for a few weeks. Somehow interest was rekindled and I resumed my listening schedule. Then it will be on to number 9 and another 6 months of listening to just that one. Maybe there's a cure out there but I haven't heard of it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 04, 2012, 06:30:01 PM
Okay, so Sinopoli it was tonight. The first thing that struck me (almost painfully) was the humongous tonal range of the orchestra. They outdecibel any other outfit I've heard. Absolutely staggering. It goes without saying that they have total command of the score. Everything is played to the hilt. Timpani pound and rage, brass make a huge sound, strings have a volume and density that is almost intimidating. For some reason winds haven't made an impression, but it's probably because I was so impressed with the other - noisier - sections of the orchestra.

Curiously they have not recorded the work often. Apart from the Sinopoli and Jochum versions I know only of one by Thielemann, which I haven't heard. I do have them on a live aircheck under Haitink, from 2004. Although the sound can be awesome in places, Haitink conducts the work better than Sinopoli IMO. He shows much more subtlety and naturalness in his handling of the dynamics (Sinopoli rarely dips under mf and when he does things are sometimes inaudible, like the three drum rolls following the climax of I), and he finds much more emotion in the various episodes. The eight can sound like a sonic quilt. A good conductor binds all the sections seamlessly, but surprinsingly few achieve that. Sinopoli does, but his quilt pieces are uniformly bright and bold in colour. The eye/ear tires.

It is hugely impressive, but it becomes predictable rather quickly. Uniformly solid, insufficiently varied tempi. Relentless outpouring of the orchestra's tonal proficiency. Maazel on EMI (Berlin Phil) does pull out all the stops in the same way. His is the only BP version I know that manages to exploit the orchestra's might without sounding coarse. But he snips 6 minutes off Sinopoli's timings, and the results sound suitably grand, hugely dramatic but everything is held tautly together. Not my favourite version, be he shows how a megadecibel eight ought to go. In the end my verdict is: too unvaried in tempi (slow) and dynamics (loud). I may come to appreciate it more with time, but that first exposure had a strangely offputting effect. I recall having had the same impression with his equally intimidating third. It may be the fault of the engineers, but I don't think so. They're not responsible for the musical decisions.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on August 05, 2012, 02:01:57 AM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 04, 2012, 09:52:46 AM
Okay, here's that other post about accumulating too many versions, and how ain't no way I'm stoppin' now....

I've slipped a bit out of touch, I just discovered last night.  First, I discovered that they finally released Simone Young's First, for which I had been waiting (but obviously forgot to check on for at least six months now).  Okay, no problem, it's ordered, onwanrd and all that....

But then I came across the following, about which I knew absolutely nothing:
Vinzago's Bruckner


Turns out it's a whole new cycle, and in addition to the Second (which is ordered just on principle, as I adore the Second), he's got sets of 0/1 and 4/7 out there, and apparently plans to do the rest.  (It's CPO.  Do they ever leave a planned set unfinished?)


Looks like you already pulled the trigger.

I have that (2nd) on my desk, but not gotten around to hear it. Will be looking forward how it compares to the excellent Schaller (PROFIL).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 05, 2012, 07:49:36 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 05, 2012, 02:01:57 AM
Looks like you already pulled the trigger.

I have that (2nd) on my desk, but not gotten around to hear it. Will be looking forward how it compares to the excellent Schaller (PROFIL).


Uh-oh.  I am beginning to become very embarrassed at the mounting evidence that I have really and truly lost touch with Bruckneriana.  I didn't know about Schaller either....  In common with Venzago, I confess I hadn't even heard of the man.  Obviously, time to get my ears out of the old pile of Furtwängler and Knappertsbusch and pay attention.

So the first Schaller volume now goes on the next-up-for-purchase list, many thanks for the tip by the way, and my bankruptcy just became assured.  Oh well.  Even today after all the Bruckner brouhaha, good Seconds are hard to find, and I'm one of those weirdies who, if asked to rank the Bruckner symphonies in order of personal preference, would list the Second, well, second.  After the 8th and just before the 0th.  I always did favor the underdog....
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on August 05, 2012, 10:22:05 AM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 05, 2012, 07:49:36 AM

Uh-oh.  I am beginning to become very embarrassed at the mounting evidence that I have really and truly lost touch with Bruckneriana.  I didn't know about Schaller either....  In common with Venzago, I confess I hadn't even heard of the man.  Obviously, time to get my ears out of the old pile of Furtwängler and Knappertsbusch and pay attention.

So the first Schaller volume now goes on the next-up-for-purchase list, many thanks for the tip by the way, and my bankruptcy just became assured.  Oh well.  Even today after all the Bruckner brouhaha, good Seconds are hard to find, and I'm one of those weirdies who, if asked to rank the Bruckner symphonies in order of personal preference, would list the Second, well, second.  After the 8th and just before the 0th.  I always did favor the underdog....

I had only heard of the Schaller a month or two ago myself when the PROFIL people showed me their upcoming release book...  and I was surprised that they seemed to consider it a major release. I've only heard 1-2-3 with him, now, but especially the 1st and 2nd are terrific. Not the orchestra in every detail (like someone else has said somewhere around here), but definitely the interpretation and over-all impression.

I'm not a particular fan of Simone Young's Bruckner, though, admittedly.

I, too, love the Second... though after the place of honor for the 8th, which sort of runs outside the competition, I love the 6th... then 5th, then a block with 9 and 7 and 2. Then the rest.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 05, 2012, 05:50:50 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 05, 2012, 10:22:05 AM
I'm not a particular fan of Simone Young's Bruckner, though, admittedly.

I on the other hand am completely sold; something of the Celibidache of Original Versions, I'd say.  But I suspect, like 'Celi', or 'Kna,' she's an acquired taste, and the fact that I acquired it and others didn't is just one of those things known as "personal taste."  Some people think Karajan was god.  I don't.  C'est la vie.

Quote

I, too, love the Second... though after the place of honor for the 8th, which sort of runs outside the competition, I love the 6th... then 5th, then a block with 9 and 7 and 2. Then the rest.


Good point I think that 8 is a thing apart, as presumably the 9th would have been had he finished it, but he didn't, so. 

Of the others my current ranking - note, much of this changes from week to week, though never dramatically - would go:  8, 2, 0, 1, 7, 6, 4, 5, 9, 3.  The current locked-in slots are the first three and the last two.  The middle is very fluid, and especially I think the 7th wanders up and down the scale nudging its way higher or lower as the version to hand commands.  It's also important to point out that the gaps between the numbers are mostly very, very narrow.  Which is to say, I wouldn't be without a one of these for one single minute. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 05, 2012, 06:34:23 PM
Quote from: André on August 03, 2012, 06:08:33 PM


A BEST  8th . Nahhhh.  It doesn't exist. Any decent collection needs 4-6 version of suitably different views. A Celi MPO belongs to it.


Agree completely, despite my silly joke the other day - and I'd be very interested in your 4 - 6 desert island list (valid only for today, if you're at all like me).  Just for fun, here's mine, with the understanding that one or two of these may change more or less at whim:

Furtwängler, BPO '49

Knappertsbusch, BPO '51

Horenstein, LSO '70

Kempe, Zürich '71

Young, Hamburg '08

Nezet-Seguin, Montreal '09 

     (The last-named is flying high at the moment because of the wild youthful intensity I hear.  This could wear thin as my innate conservatism takes its toll....)

     Now admittedly that's a flawed list in the respect that there's no Nowak edition anywhere.  But I'm thinking that really isn't important unless we base an assessment solely or substantially on the effect of the Haas inclusions, and while they matter, they aren't decisive.  (If that sort of thing were decisive, then 'Kna' and Young couldn't be there either owing to the radically different versions involved.  Then I'd have to add the "runner-up" for today's list, which happens to have been Michael Gielen, and find one more Haas that I couldn't stand to be without.)

     Just for fun of course; I really mean it, my great loves do vary rather frequently.  Wouldn't it be so much simpler if we liked simpler music?  (Also boring....)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 05, 2012, 06:37:28 PM
OOPS!!!   Where's the Celi MPO on my list?  Quite apart from anything else, it would have taken care of the Nowak omission....ah well, he's certainly in the second 4-6 list. 

You know, this game would have been so much easier if you'd started out saying we needed, say, 32 or so....
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 05, 2012, 07:29:10 PM
I'm going to go download something that is available no other way:


[asin]B0077Q4MHC[/asin]


I have no idea what I'm in for, except that I can tell you some of this conductor's Mahler is superb.  (Specifically, 5 and 6 - all I've heard, though he's done the cycle.)  I'll report back in a day or two when I've had time to download to a CD and play the thing a couple of times.

If this turns out to be any good - and I strongly suspect it'll be highly competent or better - then it represents yet another corner of the world Brucknerized.  There's hope after all!

(Update)  Also when I went to do the download I discovered there are two separate listings and two separate ASIN codes that will get you to this - one is $5.99, the other $3.96.  No idea why.  I originally posted the higher-price but have now substituted the cheaper.  If you drill down in Amazon on your own, be sure to hunt until you get the $2 off....
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 05, 2012, 08:21:34 PM
Hmmmm. A 'best' list, right? It does NOT exist. Officially. Well. As I put back Sinopoli on the shelf yeserday I surveyed my collection and found out that I had indeed some clearly defined favourites. They don't belong to a particular school of phrasing, tempo or intellectual insight. No exclusive club. If it works, fine. If it works and draws me in, even better. If I start chopping the air like a maniac, or if my eyes close, my chest pumps up and I start groaning, well you can still have a look, I'm not having intercourse. just a great musical experience.

I find that a list of great versions (whether it's B 8, the Eroica, Schubert's 9 or Mahler 9) contain 3 kinds of interpretations: the first category includes those that bring a big grin of satisfaction because they adhere closely to my objective, reasoned, intellectualised conception of the work. I can listen to any of those and will always be satisfied. Most of those are to be found in the 74-81 minutes time range. The 2nd category are those particularly individual readings that are intensely absorbing but that make one realise this is either a 'one off', or a very specialised interpretation that will appeal to the seeker of 'second' or 'third' degree Bruckner interpretation.

Then there are those individual, really personal readings of the work that invariably pick my brains and make my thoughts spin in all kinds of directions. These fire off something that just can't be quelched. Therefore, they are the ones that I have more trouble describing. I can't reasonably attempt justifying my choices. It's too internalized. Who knows where one's 'right buttons' are located, what touches them and why they trigger such intense reactions? They contain all my favourites and constitute my 3rd category.

Sometimes a conductor who has recorded the work on numerous occasions will hit the 'right buttons' once, and the other efforts will hover somewhere in the periphery. Warning to those who categorize a conductor' B 8 via a particular recording ! And the eighth seems to be a work that has attracted recidivists like honey does for flies.

So, here's the list of those really personal choices that bring me back to the 8th time and time again (in alphabetical order, regardless of the quality of sound or orchestral execution, and with no comments, except when a possible duplication may induce confusion):

Abendroth Leipzig 1944
van Beinum, COA 06.09.1955 (not the Tahra release from 04.1955, fine as it is.
Böhm WP, not the Cologne or Zurich versions (categories 1 and 2 respectively). Possibly my modern benchmark.
Celibidache Munich (in Lisbon), more spontaneous and less 'canned' than its many brethrens.
Furtwängler. BP, 15.03.1949. Another one circulates from the day before ( on Testament). That was the public rehearsal and it's a bit  less committed and less well played, not to mention in slightly grainier sound. This Furt 8th is probably THE 8th to to rule them all.
Haitink COA 1969. A firebrand 8th.  Later efforts became slower and more laboured.
Jochum Bamberg, June 1982. Many Jochums are in circulation, including an almost as good September 1982 Bamberg version. All other Jochums are on a more mundane level, whether in Berlin, Dresden or Amsterdam. I hesitated putting it in the 3rd category, as it might have been 'primus inter pares' in 1. Possibly the one I would take to Mars.
Kubelik BRSO 05.1977 on the BRSO label - NOT the 1963 Orfeo release, imperfectly executed and in sometimes overloaded mono.
Païta, National Philharmonic. I promised no comments, so that's what you get.
Schuricht WP 1963
Steinberg Boston 1971.
Tennstedt LPO, not the other versions, esp. the BP on Testament.

Short list: Böhm, Furtwängler and Jochum. Followed by Kubelik, van Beinum and Celibidache.

[EDIT: van Beinum's 04.1955 version is on Tahra, not Philips. I've edited my text above. Apologies for the confusion]



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 06, 2012, 05:07:49 AM
Much, MUCH interested in your list and more comment after more thought.  But two quick notes:

1.  A friend in Britain sent me a CDR of the Paita last year, and said he thought it wonderful.  I thought he was being silly - until I played it.  I now have much greater respect for my friend's tastes....

2.  Steinberg.  A truly unexpected inclusion, but gratifying.  It was as a matter of fact Mr. Steinberg who introduced me to the 8th - in fact to Bruckner at all! - in a live concert c.1963 with the Los Angeles Phil. in a high school auditorium (!! - we were in process of building a decent public hall at the time).  I was, in a word, overwhelmed.  So a few days later I went to my favorite music shop and asked them what they had in the way of Bruckner for me to buy and explore.  They had three discs; I bought them all.  (1) The 8th, on Westminster with Knappertsbusch and Munich - which for all the disparagement I find I still love dearly;  (2) Walter doing the 4th in Los Angeles ("Columbia");  and of all things (3) the First, conducted by F. Charles Adler.
     
     And now that the anecdotes are completed, let me go explore your lists.  I note already that I have the wrong day for the Furtwängler (Testament) on my shelf.... ditto Beinum. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 06, 2012, 08:03:31 AM
The performances Furtwängler gave in March 1949 exist in two different interpretations. The general rehearsal in a Berlin hall called the Gemeindehaus. The hall was empty but the performance was broadcast by Sender Freis radio. That's the one on testament. The next day's concert took place in Berlin's Titania Palast (a cinema). I have both and to my ears it's obvious that the extraordinary music making of the concert performance (March 15) eclipses the merely remarkable one of the Gemeindehaus (March 14). There are two other Furt 8th from 1944 and 1954, both with the WP, but that's another story.

The van Beinum 8ths from 1955 come to us in different takes too. The Tahra disc from is from April. Epic/Philips recorded it commercially in June. John Berky's discography mentions 6-9 June, 1955, which I would assume denotes a studio recording. But Haydn House claims it was recorded live. I doubt it, as there is no audience noise at movement ends as one can hear very clearly in the 04.21.1955 concert (Tahra). Once again I have both but to me the Philiips production is the one to have, especially in the Haydn House release http://www.haydnhouse.com/HH18.htm . NOTE: I was mixed up in the dates and labels of this version. I've edited the text in my previous post

Last one heard was a recent Weitblick production featuring a concert performance by the Vienna Symphony under [/b]Georges Prêtre[/b]. This conductor's interest in the germanic repertoire came to me as a surprise. He is best known as an opera conductor (the Callas Carmen and second Tosca) and as conductor of french music. Apparently he was coaxed out of retirement in his eighties and offered the conductorship of the Vienna symphony.

This is a surprisingly spontaneous performance, beautifully executed and shaped with obvious affection by the conductor. I enjoyed every second of it. It's actually one of the best performances I've heard. It is at once unsentimental yet warm and glowing, taut yet suitably expansive at nodal points. The coda is exultant in character and at the same time it swells to grandiose proportions. The art of concealing careful preparation so that it all sounds utterly natural. I'm mightily tempted to add it to my list of favourite 8ths. Have to give it a few more spins before deciding.

Prêtre also recorded the 7th. That should be interesting.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 06, 2012, 10:17:34 AM
Andre:  More on your various comments later when I have time to digest.  (Also on that Tabakov download:  I screwed something up and the files vanished before I could use them, so I have to do it over.  Later.)

Meanwhile, do you know this one?


[asin]B000S6EUGG[/asin]


Berky's site lists this in the Haas Edition column, but the finale is timed at just 21:30.  And whatever he did, Jochum was no speed-racer with his tempi.  (His brother, now, that's sometimes another story....)  Any thoughts?  If not, it's cheap enough 3d-party, I'll just buy it and find out for both of us, but thought I'd ask first.

Final note for now, thanks for the tip on Beinum and Haydn House - I was just about to send them an order anyway, easy enough to add this.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jwinter on August 06, 2012, 02:11:45 PM
Glad to see I have the "right" Furtwangler Bruckner 8.   ;D   You know it's a persnickety hobby when "Bruckner 8, Furtwangler, March 1949" isn't specific enough...

My own favorite 8ths don't cover nearly the breadth of you guys -- if I have to pick a handful of favorites, I'll take Giulini, Bohm, and Schuricht, all with Vienna, Wand BPO, and Celibidache Munich (the commonly available one).   And the Furtwangler of course, though his Bruckner is almost a different animal than anyone else IMO.

Nice to see the thread active again.   :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 06, 2012, 02:36:12 PM
Quote from: jwinter on August 06, 2012, 02:11:45 PM
You know it's a persnickety hobby when "Bruckner 8, Furtwangler, March 1949" isn't specific enough...

Yeah, I know, I was wondering if we were supposed to get matinee or evening....

Quote
My own favorite 8ths don't cover nearly the breadth of you guys

That's because you don't buy CDs with every single penny of the pension, the inheritance AND the equity loan!   :-[

Quote
if I have to pick a handful of favorites, I'll take Giulini, Bohm, and Schuricht, all with Vienna, Wand BPO, and Celibidache Munich (the commonly available one).   And the Furtwangler of course, though his Bruckner is almost a different animal than anyone else IMO.



Well, I certainly support you on Giulini, Schuricht, Celi and Furt.  Have never heard Böhm; I guess I need some further education (and expense)?  And to be honest I've never been much in love with Wand, but then I also can't remember for sure which ones I've heard and which not.  My Bruckner self-education is certainly extensive, but yet far from comprehensive in some places. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 06, 2012, 03:27:10 PM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 06, 2012, 02:36:12 PM

Well, I certainly support you on Giulini, Schuricht, Celi and Furt.  ... My Bruckner self-education is certainly extensive, but yet far from comprehensive in some places.

Good ol' Carl Schuricht: you cannot go wrong with him at the helm.

Never to be forgotten here, Uncle Connie: if you can find the money or the library with a copy, Eugen Jochum and his two cycles.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 06, 2012, 03:41:51 PM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 06, 2012, 10:17:34 AM
Andre:  More on your various comments later when I have time to digest.  (Also on that Tabakov download:  I screwed something up and the files vanished before I could use them, so I have to do it over.  Later.)

Meanwhile, do you know this one?


[asin]B000S6EUGG[/asin]


Berky's site lists this in the Haas Edition column, but the finale is timed at just 21:30.  And whatever he did, Jochum was no speed-racer with his tempi.  (His brother, now, that's sometimes another story....)  Any thoughts?  If not, it's cheap enough 3d-party, I'll just buy it and find out for both of us, but thought I'd ask first.

Final note for now, thanks for the tip on Beinum and Haydn House - I was just about to send them an order anyway, easy enough to add this.

I haven't heard it. I have long been prejudiced against Jochum's Bruckner, which I found generally good but often overpraised. Especially so in the case of the 8th and 9th. I was listening to the DG and EMI recordings. It took me quite a while to explore his various live concerts from the 1980s. Much to my surprise I found that he had changed substantially in his last years. Gone are the sudden accelerandos, replaced by a much more stable rythmic foundation. This allowed the trademark Jochum fervour to bloom naturally. A tougher, more granitic Bruckner emerged, but still suffused with glow, intensity and his uncanny way to shape the works' peaks and valleys with a clear view of THE climax.

Quite recently I became acquainted with early Jochum in the form of the 1949 Hamburg 8th. I was floored by this. It's a mountainously grand vision, a fiery drama played to the hilt by the redoubtable hamburgers (couldn't resist that one ;D). At the time Nowak's work on the editions was not out, so everybody played either the Haas or one of the now discredited versions (as Furtwängler did). When Dr. Nowak's editions were published there was no return to the old ways for Jochum. He has been a Nowak man ever since. I'm not unduly surprised to see a timing of 21:30 under Jochum, even with the extra padding Haas provided. I suppose it's a very volatile interpretation. Considering it's a live affair I would not expect much in terms of sonic presence. If you have a chançe give this Hamburg 8th a hearing. DGG has reissued it in good soumd, paired with a 1954 BRSO 9th.

I know it does sound persnickety to haggle over the  2 March 1949 performances, but the truth of the matter is that they are sufficiently different to warrant closer examination. One is not quite finished, while the other is the real article.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jwinter on August 06, 2012, 05:36:43 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean persnickety in a negative way -- I have absolutely no doubt that the differences are significant.  It's just fascinating sometimes the depths and fine grains of knowledge one runs across in these parts.   :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 07, 2012, 04:16:13 PM
Quote from: jwinter on August 06, 2012, 05:36:43 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean persnickety in a negative way -- I have absolutely no doubt that the differences are significant.  It's just fascinating sometimes the depths and fine grains of knowledge one runs across in these parts.   :)

I can't imagine that anyone took your comment in a negative way.  I certainly didn't.  You are, you know, absolutely correct. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 07, 2012, 04:28:50 PM
Follow-up on that download of the 8th, Emil Tabakov:

Well.  Don't all queue up at once fighting for the right to hear it first.  There are many, many moments, but the simple fact is that the Bulgarian Radio Orchestra needs a bit more development before they swim in the Bruckner pool again.  Compare them for instance to what was supposedly another third-world (?) orchestra, RSO Ljubljana, doing the 8th under Anton Nanut.  The latter is really a top-level interpretation and a recording that really ought to be way up there on most of the lists.  Tabakov's, well, maybe work a bit more at it, and then do it again in a studio instead of live (on air) so they can make a few edits.

(To download the Nanut, go here:   

[asin]B002G7CE7W[/asin]

and do not be misled by the one customer review and the pendant comments (except mine), which Amazon seems to have attached to the wrong product.  They have to do with a Haitink disc; but you are getting the Nanut download, I've confirmed that by matching the timings to those on Berky's site, and also against all the Haitinks listed.  Also, although Ljubljana is much much better than the Bulgarian group, they still don't sound at all like the Concertgebouw or Bavarian Radio.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 07, 2012, 06:16:42 PM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 07, 2012, 04:16:13 PM
I can't imagine that anyone took your comment in a negative way.  I certainly didn't.  You are, you know, absolutely correct.

ABSOLUTELY. Jwinter, your comment was right on the money and I didn't take it in a negative way, au contraire!  ;). It's a matter of fact that Bruckner performances tend to ignite in the concert hall and congeal in front of microphones. What exactly causes that is hard to fathom, but it's a FACT. And what causes a conductor's tempi to be more mobile (swifter) in concert is another mystery. Nowhere is this more obvious than in Knappertsbusch's or Böhm's numerous concert or studio recordings. The latter in particular is a special case: his commercial recording of the 8th was made in 1976 when the conductor was 82. Clocking in at 80 minutes, it's neither swift nor slow. It's actually the perfect duration I expect of a performance. And yet, his numerous public performances - some of them when he was even older - invariably took him 7-8 minutes less. All of those I've listened to sound uncomfortably rushed and stint on the majesty and grandeur I expect to hear in this work.

In the case of the March 1949 Furtwängler 8ths, I strongly suspect that the absence of a live audience on the 14th made Furtwängler rely more on his intellectual than his emotional bond with the composer. In sum, maybe that account should never have been issued. Both as an interpretation and execution it is less committed and the sound is not as good anyway. Unfortunately that's one of the problems with any Furtwängler release. The concert performances convey the artist's vision, warts and all. In the studio you hear the labourer's work first, the artist's personality second.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 08, 2012, 03:37:44 AM
Quote from: André on August 05, 2012, 08:21:34 PM
Kubelik BRSO 05.1977 on the BRSO label - NOT the 1963 Orfeo release, imperfectly executed and in sometimes overloaded mono.

This one, André?

[asin]B00442M0NA[/asin]


Kubelik with the Cleveland Orchestra was my first live Bruckner Eighth.


QuotePaïta, National Philharmonic. I promised no comments, so that's what you get.

I recall your original review  ;D  It made me run out and buy it. Money well spent. It's one of my favorites now. Unique, to say the least.


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jwinter on August 08, 2012, 04:41:44 AM
 Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 07, 2012, 08:28:50 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=29.msg650544#msg650544)
Follow-up on that download of the 8th, Emil Tabakov:

Well.  Don't all queue up at once fighting for the right to hear it first.  There are many, many moments, but the simple fact is that the Bulgarian Radio Orchestra needs a bit more development before they swim in the Bruckner pool again...
 
That doesn't surprise me.  The only Tabakov recordings I have are his Mahler with the Sofia Philharmonic, which I tried in the super-bargain bin.  They do have a certain rustic charm that suits Mahler, and if I'd heard them in concert I'd have been perfectly content, but it's not something I'll frequently revisit given the amount of competition out there.  Good, thoroughly competent, but by no means great...

Anyhoo, enough Mahler.  I did relisten to Furtwangler's March 15 1949, 8th, and it is indeed superb.   Doing that, I realized that I have a Furt 8th that I haven't listened to yet, from the recent Music & Arts set.  Looks like WP, March 17 1944.  Will give that a spin next...

[asin]B0012XIGZU[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 08, 2012, 04:53:57 AM
The 25 versions I own, six favorites in bold (coincidently, three Nowak, three Haas):

SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS           KARAJAN VIENNA PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS (DG)   KARAJAN BERLIN PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HASS (EMI)  KARAJAN BERLIN PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK           CELIBIDACHE MUNICH PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK           CELIBIDACHE STUTTGART RSO
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK           KLEMPERER NEW PHILHARMONIA
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS         BOULEZ VIENNA PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK           MAAZEL BERLIN PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK           MAAZEL SOBR
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK           JOCHUM STAATSKAPELLE DRESDEN
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK           GIULINI VIENNA PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK           SZELL CLEVELAND
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS         SCHURICHT VIENNA PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK/HAAS   BÖHM TONHALLE ZÜRICH
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS           BARENBOIM BERLIN PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS           WAND BERLIN PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS           WAND KÖLNER RSO
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS           DOHNÁNYI CLEVELAND
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1887/90 HAAS           PAITA PHILHARMONIC SO
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR 1892 BRUCKNER/SCHALK                KNAPPERTSBUSCH MUNICH PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR HAAS/FURTWÄNGLER (1944)           FURTWÄNGLER VIENNA PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR HAAS/FURTWÄNGLER (1949)           FURTWÄNGLER BERLIN PHIL
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK            CHAILLY CONCERTGEBOUW
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 08, 2012, 05:28:28 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 08, 2012, 03:37:44 AM
This one, André?

[asin]B00442M0NA[/asin]


Kubelik with the Cleveland Orchestra was my first live Bruckner Eighth.


I recall your original review  ;D  It made me run out and buy it. Money well spent. It's one of my favorites now. Unique, to say the least.


Sarge

Yes, that one. I find nothing to criticise in it, and everything deserves to be praised. The Orfeo is defective in sound and playing. This really shows Kubelik at his best.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on August 08, 2012, 07:41:05 PM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 07, 2012, 04:28:50 PMFollow-up on that download of the 8th, Emil Tabakov:

Well.  Don't all queue up at once fighting for the right to hear it first.  There are many, many moments, but the simple fact is that the Bulgarian Radio Orchestra needs a bit more development before they swim in the Bruckner pool again.  Compare them for instance to what was supposedly another third-world (?) orchestra, RSO Ljubljana, doing the 8th under Anton Nanut.  The latter is really a top-level interpretation and a recording that really ought to be way up there on most of the lists.

Amazon MP3 also has Nanut doing symphonies 3-5. (Plus I was surprised to discover a Prokofiev 2nd attributed to the same artists.)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51owzBQgEpL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphonies-No/dp/B003PSGNJ6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1344481884&s=dmusic&sr=1-2)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 09, 2012, 09:03:22 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 08, 2012, 07:41:05 PM
Amazon MP3 also has Nanut doing symphonies 3-5. (Plus I was surprised to discover a Prokofiev 2nd attributed to the same artists.)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51owzBQgEpL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphonies-No/dp/B003PSGNJ6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1344481884&s=dmusic&sr=1-2)

Yes, I saw that, and wondered if it would be worth it - then I realized it's only $3 per symphony (but I have to buy them all), so I shall go do the purchase and we shall see.

Also updating an earlier comment from Andre, I've sent the Haydn House my order for the "correct" Beinum.  And while poking around for that, I also found an offer for other of his recordings, notably a 1955 Zero.  Well, I am a complete sucker for a Zero, so it's ordered as well.  (The others that they offer of Beinum's, I have.  And also the "wrong" 8th.) 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 09, 2012, 11:15:52 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 08, 2012, 07:41:05 PM
Amazon MP3 also has Nanut doing symphonies 3-5. (Plus I was surprised to discover a Prokofiev 2nd attributed to the same artists.)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51owzBQgEpL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphonies-No/dp/B003PSGNJ6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1344481884&s=dmusic&sr=1-2)


Update.  I have now bought this, and downloaded it, and extensively sampled it.

To quote Monty Python, "RUN AWAY!"

I have no idea yet about the performances, but in all three cases the sound is atrocious.  The Fourth has the depth of old 78s played with the cheapest stylus obtainable.  The Third is marginally better at first, but as soon as the timpani enters in that very long opening crescendo, it sounds as if the drummer is riding the Underground directly beneath the stage; it's a distorted rumble!  And though all I did was sample around, there's no appearance of improvement anywhere. 

With the Fifth the problem isn't just the sound, which is nevertheless bad.  It is the slowest, most plodding thing I have ever heard in my life.  The tip-off is the timing:  It takes 92 minutes (sic!!), which is five minutes slower than Celibidache/MPO.  I wasn't aware that was possible, but here it is on my hard drive.  Anybody have insomnia?  Send me your address, I'll send a CDR, and your problem is solved!   

Rounded-off timings by movement:  25, 21, 19, 28.  I haven't had the nerve to play any one of these through to find out if there's some special technical problem (but the tempos are truly slow, I can tell you that much).  But it really doesn't matter; this is not a major item in the Bruckner library.  And that's really a disappointment, because everything I've ever heard from Nanut, by any composer, has 'til now been at least good, usually excellent. 

Oh rats.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jwinter on August 09, 2012, 11:32:35 AM
 Quote from: Uncle Connie on Today at 03:15:52 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=29.msg650927#msg650927)
... The tip-off is the timing:  It takes 92 minutes (sic!!), which is five minutes slower than Celibidache/MPO. 
 
:o :o :o

Quick, somebody call Sarge!   ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 09, 2012, 12:26:56 PM
Quote from: jwinter on August 09, 2012, 11:32:35 AM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on Today at 03:15:52 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=29.msg650927#msg650927)
... The tip-off is the timing:  It takes 92 minutes (sic!!), which is five minutes slower than Celibidache/MPO. 
 
:o :o :o

Quick, somebody call Sarge!   ;D


Oh, I'm sure Sarge will get in on this soon enough.... 

And I went researching some more, just for my own interest, and discovered (a) there is actually one longer version than even this Nanut albeit just 15 seconds - Horst Stein, Wuppertal Phil.  (Have no idea how to obtain it....)  and (b) Although Nanut's 92:30 is astronomical, there are actually a few versions that come close overall, and several that match or even exceed Nanut in a given movement.  E.g. in the finale, Nanut takes 27 minutes, but so do Asahina (in Chicago) and Bosch (in Tübingen), and Kurt Eichhorn in Linz exceeds!  (The timings by the way are all from Berky's site)  First and second movements similar; only in the Scherzo is Nanut clearly the slowpoke at 19 minutes vs. 15 for his nearest three competitors.

But in any case I think there's no likely technical problem, so I just need to go listen and see why he's such a  slug! 

OH YEAH - and also, the Amazon download listing has the 5th Symphony labeled "The Tragic."   :o       Where did that come from?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on August 09, 2012, 07:45:32 PM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 09, 2012, 11:15:52 AMUpdate.  I have now bought this, and downloaded it, and extensively sampled it.

To quote Monty Python, "RUN AWAY!"

I have no idea yet about the performances, but in all three cases the sound is atrocious.

I listened to the samples and thought they were acceptable.

Re the 5th's timings, it's always possible Amazon has just entered them wrongly.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 10, 2012, 09:24:58 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 09, 2012, 07:45:32 PM
I listened to the samples and thought they were acceptable.

Yes, I felt the same way - until I played the result of the download.  Perhaps if I had a better sound system connected to the computer, instead of the tiny built-in speaker that came with it, I'd have better luck sorting out poor vs. good sonics.


Quote
Re the 5th's timings, it's always possible Amazon has just entered them wrongly.

Sure, but in this case I checked another source which has nothing to do with Amazon, and they matched.  And once I'd finished the download, they still matched.  This is one very slow Fifth....
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 10, 2012, 06:18:12 PM
Is anybody familiar with this:


[asin]B004PKO5MA[/asin]


If so, is it worth the trouble, or is it 'just another d minor to clutter the shelf?' 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 10, 2012, 07:19:15 PM
When it comes to the 'Nullte', my favourite by quite a margin is the totally unexpected Neville Marriner with the Stuttgart Radio Symphony. As euphonious, idiomatic and exhilarating as can be. Did you hear it ?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 11, 2012, 02:23:00 AM
Quote from: jwinter on August 09, 2012, 11:32:35 AM
Quick, somebody call Sarge!

;D :D ;D


Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 09, 2012, 12:26:56 PM....and several that match or even exceed Nanut in a given movement.  E.g. in the finale, Nanut takes 27 minutes, but so do Asahina (in Chicago) and Bosch (in Tübingen), and Kurt Eichhorn in Linz exceeds!

Peter Jan Marthé (a Celi disciple) is a bit slower than Nanut too (27:27) although his overall timing isn't nearly so extreme.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2010/Bru5Nar.jpg)


Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 10, 2012, 09:24:58 AM
Yes, I felt the same way - until I played the result of the download.  Perhaps if I had a better sound system connected to the computer, instead of the tiny built-in speaker that came with it, I'd have better luck sorting out poor vs. good sonics.

I have decent speakers connected to my computer. Listened to the clips at Amazon. Sounds like mediocre broadcast quality mated to artificial reverb. The brass is atrocious, the bass boomy. That Scherzo is fascinating though. I'm tempted. In my youth I was a mean slam dancer but this is more my speed today  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 11, 2012, 02:34:26 AM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 10, 2012, 06:18:12 PM
Is anybody familiar with this:


[asin]B004PKO5MA[/asin]


If so, is it worth the trouble, or is it 'just another d minor to clutter the shelf?'

I own it, and the Venzago 0/1 you mentioned a few days ago. Only listened once and, memory being what it is these days, I can't recall my reaction other than it was generally positive (but then I have trouble hating any Nullte I hear). I'll search through my CD piles, see if I can find it again for another listen. (Unfortunately, with the chaotic state of my hundreds of unshelved CDs, it could take awhile.)

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 11, 2012, 04:27:00 AM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 10, 2012, 06:18:12 PM
Is anybody familiar with this:
If so, is it worth the trouble, or is it 'just another d minor to clutter the shelf?' 

I found it. It was in the next to last pile (I'm shocked, shocked it wasn't in the last pile  ;D )  Listening now. To answer your question: yes, worth acquiring. It's unique in that it shares with Maazel/SOBR the distinction of having the slowest first movement on record (18:08 and 18:25; almost all other versions clock in at three to five minutes faster). Unlike Maazel's weary tread (which I love, by the way), Blunier retains that special Brucknerian sense of mystery...or even mysticism. The second subject is especially well done in that respect. This isn't a wild and dramatic D minor, but reverential in the Celibidache mold. The Adagio (unlike Maazel's quickstep) is also really slow in comparison to other versions. The slowest, in fact, but it still flows nicely. [Edit: found an even slower Andante: Shimono with the Osaka Philharmonic. (http://www.amazon.de/Bruckner-Symphony-No-0-Sacd-H/dp/B000FNNNEW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344689812&sr=8-1)) I don't have the ability to listen to the SACD layer but the CD sounds fine.

Edit: One other reason you might consider getting this CD. It has some interesting fillers: the March in D minor WAB 96 and Three Pieces WAB 97, both from 1862. The March is interesting in that, even though it's a very early work, you can hear Bruckner's mature style.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 11, 2012, 09:49:28 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 11, 2012, 02:23:00 AM
;D :D ;D


Peter Jan Marthé (a Celi disciple) is a bit slower than Nanut too (27:27) although his overall timing isn't nearly so extreme.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2010/Bru5Nar.jpg)


I have decent speakers connected to my computer. Listened to the clips at Amazon. Sounds like mediocre broadcast quality mated to artificial reverb. The brass is atrocious, the bass boomy. That Scherzo is fascinating though. I'm tempted. In my youth I was a mean slam dancer but this is more my speed today  ;D

Sarge

Marthe:  Didn't he tinker with the score, thus adding time by adding material not in the original?  I must go play it again - I found it weird, but it's been forever since I heard it....

Agreed on what's wrong with the Nanut stuff.  And as my equipment isn't good enough to compensate, I'll keep it mostly because I paid for it, not because I much want it....
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 11, 2012, 09:52:21 AM
Quote from: André on August 10, 2012, 07:19:15 PM
When it comes to the 'Nullte', my favourite by quite a margin is the totally unexpected Neville Marriner with the Stuttgart Radio Symphony. As euphonious, idiomatic and exhilarating as can be. Did you hear it ?

At the moment my "reference" Nullte seems to be Ferdinand Leitner.  Alternatively, Inbal isn't bad at all.  And Chailly.  Those are the three I have at the moment, with van Beinum on order from Haydn House.  Some aeons ago I did have the Marriner, I think, but I must not have been overwhelmed because it isn't here any more.  Nor are Tintner nor Mehta, both of which I disliked.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 11, 2012, 11:10:21 AM
Further to "Die Nullte":

Sarge, thanks for the comments on the Blunier.  You've made a sale for some lucky merchant, I just ordered it.

Ditto Marriner, thank you for that one, Andre; there are any number of cheap copies for sale third-party, so I snapped one up.  I'm certain I've heard it, I just don't remember a thing about it.  This must be corrected!!

Two others I neglected to mention:  Solti's is tripe; just look at the timing (under 39 min.), he's just going through the motions to complete his set.  Rozhdestvensky on the other hand is very good, maybe too serious and intense about a lighter-weight symphony, but better that than the reverse.  Like Solti.  Rozhdy's hard to find though, and not cheap.  But if you get lucky, grab it. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 11, 2012, 12:40:41 PM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 11, 2012, 09:49:28 AM
Marthe:  Didn't he tinker with the score, thus adding time by adding material not in the original?


Yeah, Marthé added percussion (timpani, cymbals, triangle) to some climactic passages and re-scored a few measures. But I don't think he added anything that increased the symphony's length. His Third and Ninth are really slow too.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 11, 2012, 04:19:52 PM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 11, 2012, 11:10:21 AM
Further to "Die Nullte":

Sarge, thanks for the comments on the Blunier.  You've made a sale for some lucky merchant, I just ordered it.

Ditto Marriner, thank you for that one, Andre; there are any number of cheap copies for sale third-party, so I snapped one up.  I'm certain I've heard it, I just don't remember a thing about it.  This must be corrected!!

Two others I neglected to mention:  Solti's is tripe; just look at the timing (under 39 min.), he's just going through the motions to complete his set.  Rozhdestvensky on the other hand is very good, maybe too serious and intense about a lighter-weight symphony, but better that than the reverse.  Like Solti.  Rozhdy's hard to find though, and not cheap.  But if you get lucky, grab it.

Every time I've seem Rozhdestvensky's Nullte it was on a Chant du Monde twofer in harness with the '00'. It is very good indeed, with a special nod to the very russian orchestra who make quite an impression in such 'echt-österreischiche' music (are thee enough s, c and h in there? ). After Marriner I'd vote for the ever reliable and always fresh and idiomatic Haitink. Tintner is rather blah.

I haven't heard Leitner, but based on his formidable 6th and 9th I'd give him a free pass any time.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 12, 2012, 04:16:41 AM
Quote from: André on August 11, 2012, 04:19:52 PM
Every time I've seem Rozhdestvensky's Nullte it was on a Chant du Monde twofer in harness with the '00'. It is very good indeed, with a special nod to the very russian orchestra who make quite an impression in such 'echt-österreischiche' music (are thee enough s, c and h in there? ).

You got all the letters in there but misplaced the second s. Should be österreichische.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 12, 2012, 11:09:56 AM
 :D
I did look at it quizzically. Then I googled the word as I had written and links came out. I was reassured, but still skeptical. Thanks !
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on August 12, 2012, 05:56:31 PM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on August 10, 2012, 09:24:58 AMYes, I felt the same way - until I played the result of the download.  Perhaps if I had a better sound system connected to the computer, instead of the tiny built-in speaker that came with it, I'd have better luck sorting out poor vs. good sonics.

I listened on earbuds. I guess the thing is the latest sonics aren't important to me. Plenty of my favourites are quite old or in broadcast sound.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Uncle Connie on August 17, 2012, 07:58:09 PM
I've just received and played through the following twice (I mentioned earlier having it on order):


[asin]B007S6R3E0[/asin]


I'm not quite certain I know what to make of it, nor can I tell yet whether I'm going to like it down the line.  It's a bit strange, put up against all the 'traditional' approaches over the years.  Venzago first of all has cut his orchestra down to a smaller size than we're used to , allegedly in emulation of what Bruckner might have found in Linz or even Vienna at the time this work was new.  Further, he's added ritardandi here and there, but also subtracted a few of the traditional ones; the result is occasionally (but not frequently) jarring to someone quite familiar with the score.  And then there's the matter of the strings playing without vibrato, very much in the manner of those Baroque period-performance groups, except that Venzago goes into great detail in the booklet to distinguish between the use of this playing style in the Romantic era in a very different way and for very different reasons than in the Baroque.  I am hardly in any position to contradict him; but I can say that the passages without vibrato - essentially, those that closely echo the sounds of Austrian traditional dance music, most obviously (but not solely) the Trio of the Scherzo - sound just plain strange to my ears.  This is what I meant by not knowing whether I'll eventually like it.  For now I am so startled by the sudden shift in string sound, 'out' of vibrato and then a bit later right back 'in' again, that I am left with a sense of awkward discomfort wholly overwhelming the continuity.  I suppose if one is going to try this at all, the 2d is the place to do it, what with all the abrupt pauses already in play; but even with that allowed for, I still find the pauses logical (if overdone) and Venzago's bowing jarring.

I'll keep trying, though, because when Venzago is good, and that is very often, he is magnificent.  He is certainly worth hearing and studying, even if ultimately one goes back to some other versions. 

=====

On another matter, more succinctly, I came across a reference to an odd little source of CDRs of radio tapes from days gone by, based in Italy, almost certainly pirated, and very likely (to be generous and polite) of extremely variable sound quality.  They call themselves "Disco Archivia" and they can be found at   www.musicinthemail.com/classicalconducting/index.html 

Their starting point is great conductors of the past, and they sell - at $5 per disc - a wide range of things that are not available anywhere else to my knowledge.  You order via a box in New York and get your items 4-6 weeks later, presumably made in Italy and then distributed from the New York office. 

I took a chance, risked a few dollars, and the reason I put this here is that one of my items was the B. 2d with Hermann Scherchen, Toronto 1965.  There's a conductor wholly unassociated with Bruckner (he did do the 9th a few times), picking a less-known work to include in what would turn out to be the last tour of his life (he died in '66).  To me, very much worth finding out.  It's either going to be a hopeless mess or a stunning revelation; I'll let you know.  (If you happen to have heard the Mahler 7th he did in Toronto on the same tour, you'll know that it is a bit of both - a mess and a revelation.)   (Also ordered Willem van Otterloo doing the 3d - a much unheralded but excellent Brucknerian of the 50s through 70s.) 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 18, 2012, 05:40:49 PM
Hi Conor, thanks for this detailed and honest impression of the Venzago early Bruckner. I specify 'early' as he could branch into something totally different in the late symphonies if he does them - well, I hope he reconsiders a 'no vibrato policy' if he does the 9th :o. Speaking of 'authentic' Bruckner style, the Mehta Vienna 9th is probaly farthest removed from what you describe and yet, Mehta learned his Bruckner when studying in Vienna in the 1950s. Not all that far removed from the composer's death in 1896 when he left the 9th unfinished...

That being said, Bruckner was born (1824) and musically raised in the backwaters of Upper Austria. It is very possible that in his formative years his sound world was still anchored in the Classical era, possibly far from the influence of the Romantic movement even though it was just a few years 'around the corner'.  Notice how his musical 'breathing' started to expand and take wing with the 4th symphony. The original version of 3 and 4 being something of a transition between the two periods, his musical language evolving from often curt, clipped themes and musical phrases framed into discursive canvases to more expansive themes and developed musical paragraphs framed in tighter, better organised structures. By the time of the 5th and 6th symphonies Bruckner's mature language is fully formed in vocabulary, grammar and syntax. IMO a PI sound in these works would be totally alien and retrograde to the composer's evolution. OTOH I would most certainly buy a Harnoucourt Concentus Musicus interpretation of the middle and even late symphonies. A leap of faith, on behalf of my admiration for this conductor's musical mavericism (don't look up your Webster's, I just invented the word :D). BTW his WP or COA Bruckner leave me cold - all of them. He has to rely on the Force, not old recipes ;D.

I have a recording of symphony 1, a favourite of mine since my teen years, played by the Wiener Akademie under Martin Haselböck. If you don't know that conductor, he normally dabbles in PI stuff. He is here conducting his PI band and the results clearly call for tolerance and open-mindedness. I didn't care much for it when I first heard it. Heavily treble-oriented (because vibratoless low strings sound more or less like a hurdy-gurdy to the violins' clear, glassy tones), as far removed from 'traditional' Bruckner playing as could be. Prompted by your review I'll give it another spin (thread duty indeed) and see how it  fares now.

Great post, please keep them coming! ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on August 18, 2012, 06:24:50 PM
Quote from: André on August 18, 2012, 05:40:49 PM

IMO a PI sound in these works would be totally alien and retrograde to the composer's evolution.

From this I assume you're not familiar with Herreweghe's recording of the Seventh.  If so, I suggest correcting the omission in the near future.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 18, 2012, 08:58:22 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 18, 2012, 06:24:50 PM
From this I assume you're not familiar with Herreweghe's recording of the Seventh.  If so, I suggest correcting the omission in the near future.

I am, and it's neither an omission or an oversight ;D. It takes two to tango, and in the case of Herreweghe, his interpretive abilities as a brucknerian are found severely wanting. No matter how clean and lustrous the sound of his orchestra, it is both undernourished (slightly but unmistakedly) and wanting in personality. As a matter of fact, just about everything Herreweghe interprets - if I can use that word - is dullish and dishwaterlike. Too bad because he is from the land of HIPness and by right should be one of the tenors of the movement. But I think it takes more than efficiency, musical rectitude and a lofty purpose to achieve musical illumination for the listener.

Sorry, but I have listened to a lot of Herreweghe and so far have only found him totally at ease and therefore convincing in the Mendelssohn MND music. A truly great record, fully competitive with Klemperer's in its toooootally different way.

And please don't bring his Missa Solemnis (runs for cover :-X).

Sorry for the disappointment, but you see me without any mask: I do have some serious blind spots and do not pretend to be musically correct - nor should anyone). As a matter of fact I find that, as I age, I'm getting more and more like my younger, late-teens and early twenties self: opinionated and prone to stubborness  >:D








Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on August 19, 2012, 06:43:12 PM
Quote from: André on August 18, 2012, 08:58:22 PM
I am, and it's neither an omission or an oversight ;D. It takes two to tango, and in the case of Herreweghe, his interpretive abilities as a brucknerian are found severely wanting. No matter how clean and lustrous the sound of his orchestra, it is both undernourished (slightly but unmistakedly) and wanting in personality. As a matter of fact, just about everything Herreweghe interprets - if I can use that word - is dullish and dishwaterlike. Too bad because he is from the land of HIPness and by right should be one of the tenors of the movement. But I think it takes more than efficiency, musical rectitude and a lofty purpose to achieve musical illumination for the listener.

Sorry, but I have listened to a lot of Herreweghe and so far have only found him totally at ease and therefore convincing in the Mendelssohn MND music. A truly great record, fully competitive with Klemperer's in its toooootally different way.

And please don't bring his Missa Solemnis (runs for cover :-X).

Sorry for the disappointment, but you see me without any mask: I do have some serious blind spots and do not pretend to be musically correct - nor should anyone). As a matter of fact I find that, as I age, I'm getting more and more like my younger, late-teens and early twenties self: opinionated and prone to stubborness  >:D

You don't have to apologize to me, since I never stopped being opinionated and prone to stubborness.

Shame you don't like Herreweghe;  I do like his Mahler as well as his Bruckner.  Though I'm not particularly enthused about that  Missa Solemnis, so at least we agree on something!

(And am I correct in deducing you're not all that keen on Norrington either?)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on August 19, 2012, 06:50:09 PM
Ignorable rant: what happened to Rapidshare?? Nearly all the links on Concertarchive, Symphonyshare, and Operashare are broken and Rapidshare is claiming the files can't at all be found. Distressing as I'd just found a (broken) link to a live performance of Bruckner's Seventh by Antoni Wit and the Warsaw Philharmonic...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 19, 2012, 10:47:30 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 19, 2012, 06:50:09 PM
Ignorable rant: what happened to Rapidshare?? Nearly all the links on Concertarchive, Symphonyshare, and Operashare are broken and Rapidshare is claiming the files can't at all be found. Distressing as I'd just found a (broken) link to a live performance of Bruckner's Seventh by Antoni Wit and the Warsaw Philharmonic...
I guess you haven't been following what happened at megaupload?

HEre is something of a summary of sorts: http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/7364771/Megaupload-Hollywood-vs-the-Internet (http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/7364771/Megaupload-Hollywood-vs-the-Internet)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on August 20, 2012, 01:02:39 AM
Listened to Rattle's Bruckner's 9th with 4th movement yesterday. Thought the performance was great ans a wonderfully rich, mellow recording.  Not sure about the reconstructed 4th movement but once I got to the end I immediately wanted to listen again and I found the coda very moving and powerful. Like 'Elgar's 3rd Symphony' I shall keep coming back to this.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on August 20, 2012, 05:52:47 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 19, 2012, 10:47:30 PM
I guess you haven't been following what happened at megaupload?

HEre is something of a summary of sorts: http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/7364771/Megaupload-Hollywood-vs-the-Internet (http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/7364771/Megaupload-Hollywood-vs-the-Internet)
Oh, I knew about Megaupload and the Kim Dotcom madness, but I guess never realized Rapidshare would be stripping its site too. The demise of the filesharing sites makes it very hard to share legitimately share-able things.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 31, 2012, 06:54:39 PM
Another very appreciative listening to the Prêtre B8 with the Vienna Symphony.

Nowadays recordings are extracted from live events, which  stop being 'live', as musicians and conductor carefully aim to deliver a 'live-but-technically-perfect' performance. Well it wasn't always like that and, in some cases, it's still done the old way. The Prêtre 8th is one such instance. It's impossible to mistake this as anything other than a live event. Countless  details testify to the spontaneous fervour of that performance.

Jochum aimed at preserving a kind of 'ideal' live performance. He often failed (IMO) as what he produced sounded artificially exciting and sometimes plain unmusical. At his best ( in his last years) he nailed it, as in his 1982 Bamberg performances of the 8th, or Munich 9th.

What Prêtre achieves is to go back to Furtwängler and present it like Jochum: dynamic yet expansive, displaying the emotional side of the composer (never downplaying it) within a flexible yet firm structure. Lest it sound I'm attempting to rationalize a recording's very subjective virtues, well so be it.  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on September 05, 2012, 07:13:51 AM


(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-r2Vy3_Fo-LM/UEdhePb2TCI/AAAAAAAAEP0/hH2NircLGx4/s1600/Staatskapelle_Dresden_600.png)
Christian Thielemann's Inauguration Concert
Hugo Wolf • Anton Bruckner


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/09/christian-thielemanns-inauguration.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/09/christian-thielemanns-inauguration.html)

Listening earlier to this glorious account:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/ed/dc/d3bb828fd7a041926ac43110.L._AA300_.jpg)
A. Bruckner
Symphony No.5
C.v.Dohnanyi / Cleveland Orchestra
Decca

(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4X1/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4X1/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4X1/goodmusicguide-21)
Glorious!!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 06, 2012, 10:59:06 AM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on September 06, 2012, 10:49:44 AM
Anyone interested in Herreweghe's Bruckner (which, I acknowledge, will not be everybody) might like to know that next Monday at 19:30 BST BBC Radio 3 will be broadcasting a performance of the 9th Symphony coupled with the Te Deum (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01mk963) (I assume after, though the notes suggest before, which would be...odd) recorded last month at the Edinburgh Festival.


Well, maybe not so odd, if they intend to perform the Ninth with one of the performing versions of the Fourth Movement.  Any idea if that is the case?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on September 06, 2012, 09:45:45 PM
Currently listening to the end of Maazel's 1974 recording of the 5th. Some of the first movement was taken very slowly, making me wonder if this is what Celibidache sounds like, but overall, from his pointing out of "skipping" rhythmic elements in the middle movements, my impression of this performance is "perky" :D
I like it - maybe I have finally have found one to sit beside my Wand/NDR recording?

[asin]B0006OS84A[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on September 06, 2012, 10:01:46 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 06, 2012, 09:45:45 PM
Currently listening to the end of Maazel's 1974 recording of the 5th....
I like it - maybe I have finally have found one to sit beside my Wand/NDR recording?

Wand was a brilliant Brucknerian.  I play more Bruckner than any other composer, and since getting Wand, I play more Wand than any other Bruckner conductor.  There is some character in Wands Bruckner, and a kind of disciplined freedom in it.  Maybe Maazels perkyness can sit beside your Wand/NDR recording, but just a wee bit further down?   :D :P 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: eyeresist on September 06, 2012, 11:43:05 PM
Quote from: Scots John on September 06, 2012, 10:01:46 PMWand was a brilliant Brucknerian.  I play more Bruckner than any other composer, and since getting Wand, I play more Wand than any other Bruckner conductor.  There is some character in Wands Bruckner, and a kind of disciplined freedom in it.  Maybe Maazels perkyness can sit beside your Wand/NDR recording, but just a wee bit further down?  :D :P

To be honest, I'm not a fan of what I've heard of late Wand (4 and 9 with Berlin); it seems to lack personality. The NDR 5 and 9 I have are controlled but more interesting (helped by a sound image with more depth), and I think his classical approach suits the 5th very well. I am intrigued by what I'll hear when I eventually get his Cologne cycle, as the 1970s live recording of the 8th I have (awful sound) seems quite extroverted by comparison to later recordings.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on September 07, 2012, 04:54:05 AM
Quote from: Scots John on September 06, 2012, 10:01:46 PM
Wand was a brilliant Brucknerian....

Wand, Backhaus, Fricsay, Courzon, Kubelik... artists that I think really, actually managed to do more with less... articulate, rather than 'interpret', a piece of music -- without the result being bland and non-committal as all hell. Doesn't mean everything is great that they did (though with Fricsay very nearly so), but everything has innate musicality.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 08, 2012, 06:20:39 PM
I haven't heard the Maazel WP B5 in ages. Meaning, about 30 years ago. At the time, for someone whose first recordings were Jochum's dynamic, uplifting BRSO version and Klemperer's awe-inspiring, jaw-droppingly powerful vision, Maazel seemed unduly fast, unpredictable and wilful, devoid of grandeur and majesty. Lest those characteristics sound like a list of cardinal sins in Bruckner interpretation, so be it. I never reconciled myself to that B 5. Youth is unforgiving. Probably time for a reassessment :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on September 09, 2012, 02:34:33 AM
I finally broke down and ordered the XRCD's of Kempe's Munich Bruckner 4 and 5 from Japan.  I think this is by far the most I've ever spent per CD (I was mostly interested in the 5th, but what the hell).  The lousy exchange rate adds to the pain.  These transfers better be damn good.  The transfers I have on some European fly-by-night label are crap.  I know the 5th from an old Odyssey LP, which is lovely sounding despite compression and so-so surfaces.


(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/36/2/4/171.jpg)




Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 09, 2012, 07:11:11 PM
Hi Dave, let us know about how these transfers sound. I have those in some kind of book+cd format and find them so rough as to hamper any kind of enjoyment. I'm pretty sure that something good is lying out there but you wouldn't guess it from listening to my cds :P..
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidRoss on September 28, 2012, 07:19:54 AM
Quote from: André on September 08, 2012, 06:20:39 PM
Klemperer's awe-inspiring, jaw-droppingly powerful vision,
Ears perk up.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on September 28, 2012, 04:42:13 PM
Quote from: André on September 09, 2012, 07:11:11 PM
Hi Dave, let us know about how these [Kempe] transfers sound. I have those in some kind of book+cd format and find them so rough as to hamper any kind of enjoyment. I'm pretty sure that something good is lying out there but you wouldn't guess it from listening to my cds :P..

I haven't compared the Artone CDs, which I remember as crap.  I suspect the Artone CDs were taken from an earlier CD issue (Acanta?)  A Fanfare review mentions the bad sound of the Acanta issue while praising this Kempe performance in passing.  I wonder how the Scribendum issue sounds.

Now that my itch is scratched, the XRCD of the 5th sounds like any good analog remaster of a good recording from the 70s.   As much as I love this 5th, it's not really worth the outrageous XRCD price, I think.  JVC also splits the 5th unnecessarily across 2 CDs. 

I did listen to the Odyssey Lps recently, and those have a warmer, more present midrange, which I put down to compression and EQ for the Lp format.

EDIT: after listening to the adagio again, I have to say that it's quite beautiful, but still not worth those XRCD prices.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 29, 2012, 03:37:36 PM
Thanks. I didn't expect miracles really. So far Kempe's Bruckner (4,5 and 8) strikes me as efficient and objective, with some effort toward coaxing nice climaxes. But even the better ones he achieves are substantially below the level I look for: that of exaltation.

The real great Bruckner interps reach that cathartic level almost incidentally. That's because the music is left to speak for itself and the conductor lets his players have a musical hard-on where it counts. At that point the music simply wells up to an almost unbearable degree. Kempe's Bruckner is totally bearable.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidRoss on September 29, 2012, 05:17:42 PM
Quote from: André on September 29, 2012, 03:37:36 PM
So far Kempe's Bruckner (4,5 and 8) strikes me as efficient and objective, with some effort toward coaxing nice climaxes. [...] That's because the music is left to speak for itself and the conductor lets his players have a musical hard-on where it counts. At that point the music simply wells up to an almost unbearable degree. Kempe's Bruckner is totally bearable.
In the event of an erection lasting more than four hours....
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: CriticalI on October 01, 2012, 04:14:12 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 29, 2012, 05:17:42 PMIn the event of an erection lasting more than four hours....

That Celibidache - he was a machine.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 01, 2012, 06:15:37 PM
I recently listened for the first time in several years to the completion of Schubert's Tenth Symphony (by Brian Newbould).

More than once there was a hint of Bruckner and even Mahler in the music, i.e. the Austrian countryside Bruckner and Mahler rather than the Bruckner of angelic assaults or the Mahlerof Freud's couch.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: CriticalI on October 07, 2012, 05:38:16 PM
Over the weekend I listened to some of my new Celibidache/Munich box, as well as Matt conducting the Dm Mass (a reissue on Brilliant).

First I listened to Celi conducting the Fm Mass. Interesting, but probably not one for the ages. The slow tempos are sometimes revelatory, but just as often just too slow. As for the performance, the mass outbreak of coughing when the choir enters is offputting, the tenor is too tremulous in the Qui Tollis, and to be honest I'm not sure the Munich is a first rate orchestra. They manage the notes, but without notable style or colour.

After this, I listened to the Dm Mass, which I enjoyed much more. I thought the sound and playing were better. The choir was small and a bit backward (as was Celi's), but the soloists are nicely upfront. I think this will supercede the Best recording for me.

Symphonies 3, 4 and 5: In 3 and 4, I thought the slow tempos made the structure fairly nebulous. This was particularly a problem in the 4th's finale, which seemed incoherent and interminable. On the other hand, the 5th really worked. The slow movement especially was hugely enjoyable. Looking forward to hearing what happens in the later symphonies.

A note on the CD layout: 7 and 9 are split across CDs unnecessarily.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 08, 2012, 05:10:06 PM
Quote from: CriticalI on October 07, 2012, 05:38:16 PM
Over the weekend I listened to some of my new Celibidache/Munich box (...)

A note on the CD layout: 7 and 9 are split across CDs unnecessarily.

This is a real annoyance and a total disrespect to the buyer/listener. The extra tracks of applause bring the timing over the normal duration of a single CD.  Were it not for that crass marketing ploy both symphonies would have fit on a single disc.  I have downloaded the files (widely available on the net), and burned onto cd the music only.
For that reason alone I do not recommend purchasing the EMI set. Especially sonce Celi's Bruckner can hardly be termed a first recommendation. Admittedly indispensable for the die-hard brucknerite, but not for general consumption. The man is dead, and he did not approve of recordings as a représentation of his work. Shame on EMI !
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: CriticalI on October 08, 2012, 06:38:12 PM
Maybe Celi expressed a philosophical dislike of recordings, but I doubt these recordings could have been made without his knowledge and approval.

"Say, what's with the mixing desk, and those microphones all over the stage?"
"We're just, er, testing the equipment."
"What, again?"
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on October 09, 2012, 12:39:20 AM
1.) Celi did not approve of the release of these MPhil recordings -- no two ways about it. They are MPhil cuts of the concerts that EMI later released after Celi had died and once the son relented to fight the increasingly brisk business with Celi pirated copies in bad quality. It wasn't just a philosophical thing.

The splitting of symphonies is annoying to those (like me) who hanker for the physical product. But the price was never hiked by EMI, if I remember correctly, only because an extra CD was needed... so there's no disrespect or anything going on. Aside, who wouldn't want to take a tea break in the middle of Celi's Bruckner?  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 31, 2012, 05:36:37 PM
I've just been listening to Celibidache recordings of 4 and 7. I thought 4 was wonderful, particularly the way that his slow tempi in the finale make the second subject group less twittery. I thought 7 was sublime, the best recording of 7 I have heard. Once again his slow tempi make the music much more grounded and substantial; with the 7th I often hear recordings where the first two movements sound substantial, the scherzo and finale rather light-weight, not with Celibidache!

I don't mind the EMI packaging of the Symphonies or the applause tracks, which, after all, you can choose to listen to or not.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 01, 2012, 05:37:29 AM
The radio was recently playing Bruckner's Ninth.  I missed the introduction about the conductor and orchestra.

The opening was played rather dreadfully: the fortissimo statement of the main theme by the 8 horns and other brass seemed to miss the third note (?!) or at least to smear it into the next one, and such lack of incisive playing continued.

I missed the rest of the movement, the Scherzo, and the opening of the Adagio.  The Adagio's climax was as odd as the opening: beats seemed to be missing, and the balance emphasized the woodwinds and strings with the brass...basically in the background!

And so, I waited to hear who was responsible for this:

"A recording from 1970: the New Philharmonia Orchestra, Otto Klemperer conducting."

Perhaps it was a badly made CD.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on January 18, 2013, 01:04:39 PM

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aRBqVEFm6bU/UPm2FsFICBI/AAAAAAAAF8M/EMaiDsgkkPE/s1600/Anton_Bruckner_II_laurson_600.jpg)
A Survey of Bruckner Cycles
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)

(Help with broken links or wrong information or mix-ups always much appreciated.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on January 18, 2013, 01:36:34 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 18, 2013, 01:04:39 PM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aRBqVEFm6bU/UPm2FsFICBI/AAAAAAAAF8M/EMaiDsgkkPE/s1600/Anton_Bruckner_II_laurson_600.jpg)
A Survey of Bruckner Cycles
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)

(Help with broken links or wrong information or mix-ups always much appreciated.)

This type of exploration is usual for me; typically, I explore a composer's symphonies (and other works) piecemeal. It would be difficult to pick a favorite so far; there is enough variation in each cycle that I might pick a different one depending on my mood. However, for some reason I felt a deeper emotional connection with Tintner.  Much more than emotional; at times all is a funeral march, it takes a while but passages take on a more positive mood starting with no.5. His no. 5 seems to be heading in a different direction; the Wagnerian grandeur is much diminished, and it is replaced by a more austere, introspective mood. I sense a great deal of emotional depth here, and after only one hearing, I feel like I have barely scratched the surface and there is likely a lot more to be discovered. There are frequent shifts of mood. In particular, the scherzo.

When I get ready to buy more recordings of Bruckner's symphonies, I'll have to go back through all of the recommendations here.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on January 18, 2013, 02:20:18 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 18, 2013, 01:36:34 PM
This type of exploration is usual for me; typically, I explore a composer's symphonies (and other works) piecemeal. It would be difficult to pick a favorite so far; there is enough variation in each cycle that I might pick a different one depending on my mood. However, for some reason I felt a deeper emotional connection with Tintner.  Much more than emotional; at times all is a funeral march, it takes a while but passages take on a more positive mood starting with no.5. His no. 5 seems to be heading in a different direction; the Wagnerian grandeur is much diminished, and it is replaced by a more austere, introspective mood. I sense a great deal of emotional depth here, and after only one hearing, I feel like I have barely scratched the surface and there is likely a lot more to be discovered. There are frequent shifts of mood. In particular, the scherzo.

When I get ready to buy more recordings of Bruckner's symphonies, I'll have to go back through all of the recommendations here.

Thoughts on Tintner's 5.

It's built slowly, as is clear right from the introduction, which is laid out spaciously but with very pointed details. Suffice to say that it's one of the most successful I've heard. IMO Klemperer builds a hotter head of steam, but to other ears he sounds dyspeptic, so there you have it: slow tempi can either sound majestic, granitic, and inevitable or OTOH comatose, arthritic and dispirited. To my ears this 5th has all of the former attributes, and none of the latter. Tempi being all on the slow side, there's a certain stoic quality to I and II. The orchestra always seem to have lots of extra tone, lung or muscle power in reserve. They never force. The scherzo is also slower than usual, but very sharp and animated. The Finale recording, where balances can be fine-tuned in different ways. Also, the finale can be played when the players are still fresh. The unusual prominence of the strings in that recording is indeed noticeable. I don't feel it's just that the recording is clear - there's more to it. Not that the brass are slighted, just that the strings have more presence than usual in the complex, loud passages. And the coda does blaze more and show an extra oomph without necessarily sounding louder. It sounds fuller. For example, where strings and brass play ff, the brass have no problem being heard, but the strings tend to lose presence. Tintner asks the brass to play slightly softer so the important string lines are clearly heard. Also, in the coda of IV (where in a live performance the brass are at the limit of their forces) are asked to produce that roof-raising final climax.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Que on January 19, 2013, 12:11:39 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 18, 2013, 01:02:17 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S7BDJ1RYL.jpg)

Ah, that's good stuff!
All his late RCO Bruckner is, really.

Very satifying indeed. 8) I know there is some late Jochum Bruckner with the RCO on Tahra, do you have any specific rec? :)

Q
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on January 19, 2013, 02:26:45 AM
Quote from: Que on January 19, 2013, 12:11:39 AM
Very satifying indeed. 8) I know there is some late Jochum Bruckner with the RCO on Tahra, do you have any specific rec? :)

Q


For starters I was confused -- because this is 'just' the famousish 1964 Fifth when the cover mislead me to assume it was a mid-80s recording. A good midway point between BRSO (58, which I really like, actually), and Dresden (80, which I'm not that keen on). I guess there's a 1938 Hamburg 5th out there, too, but I've never heard it nor any particular inclination to do so... one need not have heard everything.

Yes, I am mostly thinking of that December 1986 recording -- great and overrated in equal measure, if you know what I mean. I was also thinking of two radio broadcasts that I encountered on the Georg Ludwig / Eugen box: The Sixth from 1980 and the 8th from 1984. The latter included in the -- I kid you not -- "Eugen Jochum Tower Recods Supremacy Selection"! (Japan-release, obviously... more precious than the innocently excited Philips "Super Best 50" collection.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51n4bHcpO-L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Anton Bruckner
Symphony No.5
E.Jochum / RCO

(December 4th, 1986)
Tahra (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001FRNONM/goodmusicguide-20)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on January 29, 2013, 09:34:58 AM
I have Bruckner #1 BLARING and twinkling away around me, and I'm surprised to find it - well, it's a wee bit messy, sounds unattractively patched together in some way, etc.  It seems rife with an inconsistency I can't quite put my finger on.  Anyone agree with this shocking revelation about my favorite composer?   Even Hans Rotts first and only symphony was better than this!  It's Chailly with the RCO I'm listening to.  I will play Haitink with the same band, the same piece, in a wee while, see if I can figure it out.  Or Wand.  Something must be wrong...  >:(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 29, 2013, 09:42:32 AM
Bruckner really came into his own in the 4th. Some will argue the 3rd, but the 4th begins the progression of one great symphony after the other.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on January 29, 2013, 09:53:18 AM
Quote from: Scots John on January 29, 2013, 09:34:58 AM
I have Bruckner #1 BLARING and twinkling away around me, and I'm surprised to find it - well, it's a wee bit messy, sounds unattractively patched together in some way, etc.  It seems rife with an inconsistency I can't quite put my finger on.  Anyone agree with this shocking revelation about my favorite composer?   Even Hans Rotts first and only symphony was better than this!  It's Chailly with the RCO I'm listening to.  I will play Haitink with the same band, the same piece, in a wee while, see if I can figure it out.  Or Wand.  Something must be wrong...  >:(

No, you're on the right track. I have Chailly's (which I haven't heard in a very long time), but more recently heard Georg Tintner's version of No. 1 (1866, Linz version) - it is really quite startling, harmonically. I wrote it up awhile back on Amazon, here (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-Version-Carragan-Adagio/dp/B00004SYFQ).

So...nothing's wrong  ;D; you're just experiencing the visionary side of Bruckner - the side that some felt the need to smooth over or "correct."

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 29, 2013, 10:01:19 AM
Quote from: Scots John on January 29, 2013, 09:34:58 AM
I have Bruckner #1 BLARING and twinkling away around me, and I'm surprised to find it - well, it's a wee bit messy, sounds unattractively patched together in some way, etc.  It seems rife with an inconsistency I can't quite put my finger on.  Anyone agree with this shocking revelation about my favorite composer?   Even Hans Rotts first and only symphony was better than this!  It's Chailly with the RCO I'm listening to.  I will play Haitink with the same band, the same piece, in a wee while, see if I can figure it out.  Or Wand.  Something must be wrong...  >:(

No!  Nothing is wrong!   ;D

As Bruce mentioned, this is the young(ish) Bruckner unchained, a premonition of the future Bruckner where he uses planets as stepping stones into the eternity of the music of the spheres!

I have the Jochum version on DGG.  The First Symphony has always been a favorite: still startling after so many decades!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on January 29, 2013, 10:04:39 AM
Okay! I'm on it!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on January 29, 2013, 10:19:12 AM
How superb.  This will occupy my entire night, listening to the first by different conductors, including the RSNO with Tintner and the Jochum with Staatskapelle Dresden, which I shall listen to next.  Thanks for that!   :D :P
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on January 29, 2013, 10:20:20 AM
By the way: blaring and twinkling . . . I like that.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 29, 2013, 10:53:55 AM
Quote from: Scots John on January 29, 2013, 10:19:12 AM
... and the Jochum with Staatskapelle Dresden, which I shall listen to next.  Thanks for that!   :D :P

That set is from the 1970's, and while some people have mentioned the "rugged" sound of  the Staatskapelle Dresden (especially in the brass) as giving the works a more primal edge, others think it is simply incompetent at times.   :o

My memory of the set is that it simply gives us Jochum c. 10 years older with another way of conducting the symphonies.  (I last heard it in the spring of 2007).

Specifically of the First Symphony my memory says that it was equal to the DGG recording from the 1960's. 

Tell us about your dreams after listening to the First so often in one day!   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on January 29, 2013, 11:02:39 AM
Love the switch from the sublime conclusion of the Adagio into the fiery Scherzo.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 29, 2013, 12:18:21 PM
Quote from: Scots John on January 29, 2013, 09:34:58 AMIt's Chailly with the RCO I'm listening to.  I will play Haitink with the same band, the same piece, in a wee while, see if I can figure it out.  Or Wand.

Quote from: Scots John on January 29, 2013, 10:19:12 AM
How superb.  This will occupy my entire night, listening to the first by different conductors, including the RSNO with Tintner and the Jochum with Staatskapelle Dresden, which I shall listen to next.  Thanks for that!   :D :P

If you listen to those conductors, you'll hear three versions of the symphony. Cool.

UNREVISED LINZ 1866 HAAS   TINTNER
LINZ 1877 NOWAK   JOCHUM
LINZ 1877 NOWAK   HAITINK
VIENNA 1891 BRUCKNER   CHAILLY
VIENNA 1891 BRUCKNER   WAND


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on January 29, 2013, 12:19:52 PM
Surprises me to consider so, but I'm quite a Bruckner fan now.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 29, 2013, 12:20:27 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 29, 2013, 10:53:55 AM
That set is from the 1970's, and while some people have mentioned the "rugged" sound of  the Staatskapelle Dresden (especially in the brass) as giving the works a more primal edge, others think it is simply incompetent at times.   :o

I dunno..."incompetent" doesn't sound right to me.

There are indeed some "brass intrusions" on occasion but it's not so intrusive as to disrupt overall enjoyment.

Although maybe I haven't done myself any favors by listening to all those "historical recordings" in my classical youth. ;D


QuoteMy memory of the set is that it simply gives us Jochum c. 10 years older with another way of conducting the symphonies.

+1

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidRoss on January 29, 2013, 02:22:54 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 29, 2013, 12:19:52 PM
Surprises me to consider so, but I'm quite a Bruckner fan now.

One never knows where the day's big surprise will be found.  :o
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 29, 2013, 02:31:22 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 29, 2013, 11:02:39 AM
Love the switch from the sublime conclusion of the Adagio into the fiery Scherzo.

Amen, Brother!   0:)

Quote from: karlhenning on January 29, 2013, 12:19:52 PM
Surprises me to consider so, but I'm quite a Bruckner fan now.

Dudes!   8)  It is official!  Karl is in the club!   ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 29, 2013, 02:44:50 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 29, 2013, 12:19:52 PM
Surprises me to consider so, but I'm quite a Bruckner fan now.

I didn't know you weren't a Bruckner fan. :-\ What brought about this sudden change of heart?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 29, 2013, 03:06:28 PM
Next up for Karl, Gustav Mahler! :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on January 29, 2013, 03:21:19 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on January 29, 2013, 02:22:54 PM
One never knows where the day's big surprise will be found.  :o

The process started, really, with those insidious Masses : )

Then, I think, there came the Ninth Symphony in a Giulini box . . . and then it was just a matter of time.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 29, 2013, 03:35:06 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 29, 2013, 03:06:28 PM
Next up for Karl, Gustav Mahler! :D

A logical assumption!   ;) 

I have always found the Mahler First Symphony to be a descendant of Bruckner's Third.

Recently a high-school friend (who is no fan of Mahler) remarked that Mahler's first 4 symphonies do not quite approach the Ultima Thule found in Bruckner's last 3 or 4 symphonies: cf. e.g. Mahler's First Symphony (c. 1888) with Bruckner's Eighth Symphony from around the same year.

I commented that the Mahler does indeed enter terra incognita, especially with the third movement, and with smaller things in the finale like the final transition ( the triplet in the violas).  To be sure, the Bruckner Eighth may be more monumental, the Mahler spunkier...

Which is quite fine, of course, since they are both barn-burners!   ;D



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidRoss on January 29, 2013, 03:44:29 PM
Karl, you're setting a terrible example. How dare you keep listening with an open mind!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 29, 2013, 04:50:23 PM
Has anyone heard any of the performances from Blomstedt's Gewandaus cycle? A box set is coming out soon and I'm thinking about getting it with my birthday money along with the Harnoncourt set coming out in February.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on January 29, 2013, 04:58:17 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 29, 2013, 04:50:23 PM
Has anyone heard any of the performances from Blomstedt's Gewandaus cycle? A box set is coming out soon and I'm thinking about getting it with my birthday money along with the Harnoncourt set coming out in February.

Yep... it's typical Blomstedt: If you don't listen carefully and attentively, you could very easily miss the plenty of subtle, understated excellence that he delivers. With particularly good sound, too... talking primarily about the orchestra but also the recordings. Well, judging from 5, 6, 7, 8 at least (and live performances) -- the other ones I have yet to hear. Not impressive, but quietly delightful. And never judge a Blomstedt Bruckner performance before you've heard all four movements. :-)

A Survey of Bruckner Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 29, 2013, 05:11:29 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 29, 2013, 04:58:17 PM
Yep... it's typical Blomstedt: If you don't listen carefully and attentively, you could very easily miss the plenty of subtle, understated excellence that he delivers. With particularly good sound, too... talking primarily about the orchestra but also the recordings. Well, judging from 5, 6, 7, 8 at least (and live performances) -- the other ones I have yet to hear. Not impressive, but quietly delightful. And never judge a Blomstedt Bruckner performance before you've heard all four movements. :-)

A Survey of Bruckner Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)

Thanks, Jens. I'll checkout Blomstedt's cycle. Right now, I'm making my through the Celibidache cycle on EMI. Great stuff.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on January 29, 2013, 05:13:55 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 29, 2013, 05:11:29 PM
Thanks, Jens. I'll checkout Blomstedt's cycle. Right now, I'm making my through the Celibidache cycle on EMI. Great stuff.

Two different worlds, altogether. I like them both very much... but I definitely love Celi. Well... 3, 5, 6 most particularly. Those are the bees' knees. Or bumble bees' feet, perhaps. The rest works better if one has experienced Celi and the MPhil with them live, also (which I haven't), or if one is a devoted disciple of the Celi-cult.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 29, 2013, 05:17:25 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 29, 2013, 05:13:55 PM
Two different worlds, altogether. I like them both very much... but I definitely love Celi. Well... 3, 5, 6 most particularly. Those are the bees' knees. Or bumble bees' feet, perhaps. The rest works better if one has experienced them live, also (which I haven't), or if one is a devoted disciple of the Celi-cult.

I'm listening to his 6th right now. Finished his 5th performance a little earlier. Fine performances. I've also not made it through Maazel's or Inbal's sets yet, so I'm working on those as well.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on January 29, 2013, 05:29:10 PM
Celi's Bruckner 6th is one of those recordings that ought to be in a hall of fame somewhere, surrounded by gold trophies and wreaths of flowers and letters from adoring fans.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 29, 2013, 05:30:44 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 29, 2013, 05:29:10 PM
Celi's Bruckner 6th is one of those recordings that ought to be in a hall of fame somewhere, surrounded by gold trophies and wreaths of flowers and letters from adoring fans.

That Adagio is EPIC! I mean seriously! This movement alone should get the gold prize in total awesomeness. :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 29, 2013, 05:45:19 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 29, 2013, 05:30:44 PM
That Adagio is EPIC! I mean seriously! This movement alone should get the gold prize in total awesomeness. :D

The ending of the Sixth Symphony's slow movement is a spiritual vision: it is the root, the DNA, of the next 3 slow movements in Symphonies VII, VIII, and IX.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 29, 2013, 05:53:47 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 29, 2013, 05:45:19 PM
The ending of the Sixth Symphony's slow movement is a spiritual vision: it is the root, the DNA, of the next 3 slow movements in Symphonies VII, VIII, and IX.

The 6th is one of my favorite symphonies of the cycle. I always felt it was underrated compared to say the 5th, 7th, or 8th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 29, 2013, 06:19:25 PM
There's so much about Bruckner the man that remains a mystery to me. I understand that he could be quite neurotic (like me :)) and that he had severe self-doubt in his own music hence why so many performing editions exist of his symphonies. He was a simple man who was devoted to his religion, but to look at his pictures the music that we hear completely contradicts his own personality. His music is huge, masculine, brassy, and extroverted, but those slow movements reveal a deep profundity and spiritualness.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: max on January 29, 2013, 10:18:45 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 29, 2013, 06:19:25 PM
There's so much about Bruckner the man that remains a mystery to me. I understand that he could be quite neurotic (like me :)) and that he had severe self-doubt in his own music hence why so many performing editions exist of his symphonies. He was a simple man who was devoted to his religion, but to look at his pictures the music that we hear completely contradicts his own personality. His music is huge, masculine, brassy, and extroverted, but those slow movements reveal a deep profundity and spiritualness.

Bruckner's music is like the final journey to the ultimate mystery. It creates a cathedral out of the cosmos every part a remnant of God. Bruckner was indeed a devoutly religious and simple man yet his music echos and strives toward the metaphysics of the divine like that of no other composer. The music in every sense corresponds to Bruckner's lust for God and becomes the sound map to that goal. With Bruckner more than anyone, even Wagner, I get that feeling of losing all sense of immediacy within the sound vaults of Bruckner's music.

If you think his music is extrovert and loud with the exception of the slow movements all I can say is there are many layers left to penetrate.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Octave on January 29, 2013, 11:12:56 PM
Just a product inquiry.  Is there any substantial difference between the two Skrowaczewski/Saarbrucken full-cycle boxes?  Aside from the cover.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5109bT5XwmL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XWSkkNa%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Both seem to be dated 2004 at Amazon.  I'm assuming they are both content-identical reissues of the Arte Nova edition:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rAppCJ8nL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on January 29, 2013, 11:26:58 PM
Quote from: Octave on January 29, 2013, 11:12:56 PM
Just a product inquiry.  Is there any substantial difference between the two Skrowaczewski/Saarbrucken full-cycle boxes?  Aside from the cover.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5109bT5XwmL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XWSkkNa%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Both seem to be dated 2004 at Amazon.  I'm assuming they are both content-identical reissues of the Arte Nova edition:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rAppCJ8nL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Yes. Arte Nova licensed the Oehms production -- when the two companies were somehow, tangentally connected (if only because operated out of Munich; Arte Nova then by the chap who now owns and runs NEOS). Then Oehms realized that that they probably ought to take that set back into their own fold and re-issued it themselves and the licensing deal ran out. (That would have been about 2004.)

In doing so, they produced/re-issued the box on the right (I'm 93% sure, but I can ascertain if to 100, if necessary), into which they poured much more effort and which is of a much higher quality built.

The Amazon date is incorrect for, I think, the Oehms version on the left which may never have been imported and/or distributed in the US before 2004... which may explain that.


A Survey of Bruckner Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Octave on January 29, 2013, 11:34:52 PM
Thanks for that info, Jens...that's just what I needed
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on January 29, 2013, 11:37:45 PM
FYI: Skrowa is still conducting, and awesome at it.

Ionarts-at-Large: The Admirable, Adorable Stanisław Skrowaczewski
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/ionarts-at-large-admirable-adorable.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/ionarts-at-large-admirable-adorable.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: trung224 on January 30, 2013, 01:14:01 AM
 Skrowaczewski is my favorite alive Bruckner conductor. Many people compare him with Günter Wand, but I think  Skrowaczewski has the same conducting style with Carl Schuricht, both are not a type of push-and-pull conductors like Furtwängler, Abendroth, Knappertsbusch, but unlike literal conductors like Wand, they favor flexible rhythm, and both are the masters of using legato. I am very impressed with his slow movement in the last three symphonies, very personal and heartfelt.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on January 30, 2013, 01:44:57 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on January 29, 2013, 03:44:29 PM
Karl, you're setting a terrible example. How dare you keep listening with an open mind!

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on January 30, 2013, 01:58:29 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 29, 2013, 03:35:06 PM
A logical assumption!   ;) 

I have always found the Mahler First Symphony to be a descendant of Bruckner's Third.

Recently a high-school friend (who is no fan of Mahler) remarked that Mahler's first 4 symphonies do not quite approach the Ultima Thule found in Bruckner's last 3 or 4 symphonies: cf. e.g. Mahler's First Symphony (c. 1888) with Bruckner's Eighth Symphony from around the same year.

I commented that the Mahler does indeed enter terra incognita, especially with the third movement, and with smaller things in the finale like the final transition ( the triplet in the violas).  To be sure, the Bruckner Eighth may be more monumental, the Mahler spunkier...

Which is quite fine, of course, since they are both barn-burners!   ;D

Let the farmers look to their barns, then!

To echo what may be a Japanese proverb cited in Kill Bill: "Music is a forest, not a straight line."  And actually I was reconciled to the Mahler symphonies (— and Das Lied von der Erde, for instance, I have enjoyed practically forever —) even before those of Bruckner.

One of the other roundabout aspects of this is, by now I have given at least a single attentive listen to the Bruckner symphonies nos. 1-9, but there are still a few of the Mahler symphonies to which I've not yet given proper ear. (And that, even though I've got the DG assorti box.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mszczuj on January 30, 2013, 02:13:51 AM
Quote from: Scots John on January 29, 2013, 09:34:58 AM
I have Bruckner #1 BLARING and twinkling away around me, and I'm surprised to find it - well, it's a wee bit messy, sounds unattractively patched together in some way, etc.  It seems rife with an inconsistency I can't quite put my finger on.  Anyone agree with this shocking revelation about my favorite composer?   Even Hans Rotts first and only symphony was better than this!  It's Chailly with the RCO I'm listening to.  I will play Haitink with the same band, the same piece, in a wee while, see if I can figure it out.  Or Wand.  Something must be wrong...  >:(

Don't know Chailly but both Haitink (which is strange, but he is in fact is not the very inspired Bruckner conductor) and Wand (which is not strange, as he is extremely overrated) didn't find what this symphony is about, I'm afraid. For this symphony I do not recommend Skrowaczewski (whose whole set is probably the best of all I know), Dresden Jochum (who is the best in the last three symphonies). Tintner (as he is always absolutely uninteresting), Berlin Barenboim (the only his Bruckner I have heard - but I'm not interested in hearing any Barenboim), Rozhdestvensky (at least in Vienna redaction - I do not reccomend Vienna redaction at all).

Try Inbal who is great in this symphony or Leipzig Masur who is quite acceptable.

The problem is that playing this symphony as if it was "Bruckner symphony" is killing it.

This is all I know about it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 30, 2013, 02:19:34 AM
Quote from: mszczuj on January 30, 2013, 02:13:51 AM
Don't know Chailly but both Haitink (which is strange, but he is in fact is not the very inspired Bruckner conductor) [snip]
Really?!? He's my favorite Bruckner conductor by far. His 9th with the Concertgebouw (second one) is outstanding! His 6th on Profil is excellent too. I'd get his cycle if I was ever to buy any more Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 30, 2013, 03:32:54 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 29, 2013, 05:53:47 PM
The 6th is one of my favorite symphonies of the cycle. I always felt it was underrated compared to say the 5th, 7th, or 8th.

Agreed, underrated is quite correct!

Bruckner supposedly said that "Die Sechste is die Keckste" i.e. "The Sixth is the sassiest."  Not only in the thematic material but also in its treatment contrapuntally and harmonically there is an edge-pushing "sassiness" throughout. 

Listen for instance to the final minutes of the slow movement, where the sad little funeral march has returned, which then gives away to an ascension and a farewell of hopefulness.  For me these few minutes are a blissful shattering, especially as the decades tick away.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on January 30, 2013, 03:54:09 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 30, 2013, 03:32:54 AM
Agreed, underrated is quite correct!

Bruckner supposedly said that "Die Sechste is die Keckste" i.e. "The Sixth is the sassiest."  Not only in the thematic material but also in its treatment contrapuntally and harmonically there is an edge-pushing "sassiness" throughout. 

Listen for instance to the final minutes of the slow movement, where the sad little funeral march has returned, which then gives away to an ascension and a farewell of hopefulness.  For me these few minutes are a blissful shattering, especially as the decades tick away.

Well, my listening this morning is now indicated . . . .

:-)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 30, 2013, 04:32:38 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 30, 2013, 03:32:54 AM
Agreed, underrated is quite correct!

Bruckner supposedly said that "Die Sechste is die Keckste" i.e. "The Sixth is the sassiest."  Not only in the thematic material but also in its treatment contrapuntally and harmonically there is an edge-pushing "sassiness" throughout. 

Listen for instance to the final minutes of the slow movement, where the sad little funeral march has returned, which then gives away to an ascension and a farewell of hopefulness.  For me these few minutes are a blissful shattering, especially as the decades tick away.

I've always found the final minutes of 6th Symphony's first movement to contain the very best of Bruckner. Such glorious music.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on January 30, 2013, 04:38:33 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 30, 2013, 02:19:34 AM
Really?!? He's my favorite Bruckner conductor by far. His 9th with the Concertgebouw (second one) is outstanding! His 6th on Profil is excellent too. I'd get his cycle if I was ever to buy any more Bruckner.

I think it's a fair assessment (or at least an understandable one) to not think of Haitink as a great Bruckner conductor if one doesn't know the late recordings. If you compare his unofficial, scattered SACD semi-cycle (http://www.amazon.com/lm/R3AZ7P8N8MVIT9/?_encoding=UTF8&tag=nectarandambr-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=390957&lm_bb=) (4-8, currently, with five different orchestras on five different labels, 5, 6, and 7 of which are out of this world) to his first integrale, there's a tremendous improvement in spirit and certainty and the inherently compelling quality. Compared to that, the OOP Philips cycle is just solid.

A Survey of Bruckner Cycles
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)

The idea the Sixth is an underrated favorite, I've been pushing since I've been writing about it. Happy to see that I'm hardly alone in that assessment.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-no-80b-bruckner-6.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-no-80b-bruckner-6.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/ionarts-at-large-youthful-bruckner-with.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/ionarts-at-large-youthful-bruckner-with.html)

Quote... I just can't think of the Fourth as quite as great as it is always made out to be. Come to think of it – and given the right recording – I like any of the other 'core' Bruckner symphonies (counting from the Third onward) better than the Fourth. Certainly the Sixth, rarely played and the least recorded of the "mature" Symphonies...

Quote...James Gaffigan got to work on the Sixth, not the most performed, but the loveliest of Bruckner Symphonies. It's perhaps less "Brucknerian", which is to say: conforms less to loved stereotypes about the 'cathedral-of-sound', slightly lumbering, humbly portentous Bruckner. Our loss, but luckily not that night...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on January 30, 2013, 04:50:51 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 30, 2013, 04:38:33 AM
I think it's a fair assessment (or at least an understandable one) to not think of Haitink as a great Bruckner conductor if one doesn't know the late recordings. If you compare his unofficial, scattered SACD semi-cycle (http://www.amazon.com/lm/R3AZ7P8N8MVIT9/?_encoding=UTF8&tag=nectarandambr-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=390957&lm_bb=) (4-8, currently, with five different orchestras on five different labels, 5, 6, and 7 of which are out of this world) . . . .

An Abbey should not be so dangerous a place. (Just sayin'.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mszczuj on January 30, 2013, 06:29:36 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 30, 2013, 04:38:33 AM
I think it's a fair assessment (or at least an understandable one) to not think of Haitink as a great Bruckner conductor if one doesn't know the late recordings. If you compare his unofficial, scattered SACD semi-cycle (http://www.amazon.com/lm/R3AZ7P8N8MVIT9/?_encoding=UTF8&tag=nectarandambr-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=390957&lm_bb=) (4-8, currently, with five different orchestras on five different labels, 5, 6, and 7 of which are out of this world) to his first integrale, there's a tremendous improvement in spirit and certainty and the inherently compelling quality. Compared to that, the OOP Philips cycle is just solid.

This is exactly my case. To find that interpretation is just solid is rather disappointing for me when I listen to my favorite non-HIP conductor.

But reading of Inbal gives all the justice to this ultra romantic work. I was really shocked how good it is when I heard it because I had heard Nos 3-5 in his interpretation before and hadn't been very impressed. Last year I listened to the completes of Haitink, Skrowaczewski, Dresden Jochum, Inbal, Cologne Wand and Tintner one after another and the Inbal No.1 was for me the greatest plesure in the whole this experience.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on January 30, 2013, 07:29:14 AM
Well, last night I totally hammered myself with various Bruckner Symphony number ones.  I heard versions by Tintner, Wand, Haitink, Jochum, Chailly, Maazel, and another one which I can't remember right now...also some snippets and patches of it by different conductors from an 'unusual source' (the Internet)...anyway, it seems Chailly was not to blame for an uneven performance, it is the Symphony itself which is uneven to my ears.  I paid particular attention to Tintners, which admittedly was given a far more consistent treatment than many others, but still I found myself mildly irritated at my goings on with it. 
The symphony itself is still wondrous, and if it's upbeats could be visualized, you would see something like this....

http://www.youtube.com/v/eakKfY5aHmY

In the same way that I hear clocks ticking in Bruckners 9th, I can hear birds flying in Bruckners 1st.   :-\ :P
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on January 30, 2013, 07:47:18 AM
I don't have all those worthies in the First--I have Tintner,  Wand (Cologne), Jochum (EMI), Karajan.  As was the case with Nos. 2 and 3, I first heard the First in Tintner's performance,  which in the case of all three easily convinced me that the music was not really worth listening to.  Jochum was nothing to write home about, but Wand did wake me up to the possibilities in those three symphonies.   It is, however, only Karajan that I actually like in those first three symphonies.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on January 30, 2013, 08:05:12 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 30, 2013, 07:47:18 AM
...Wand did wake me up to the possibilities in those three symphonies...

I thought Wands Bruckner 1 to be the most 'dynamic' of what I listened to.  Tintners, the most evenly thought out.  Hiatink was full on, Jochum was a wee bit high in the trebles, Chailly was as uneven as the symphony itself, Maazel was as smooth and big as a highly polished smooth thing which is big.   :-\
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on January 30, 2013, 11:12:58 AM
I keep needing to pick my jaw up off the floor; the Adagio from the Sixth is utterly exquisite.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 30, 2013, 11:15:27 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 30, 2013, 11:12:58 AM
I keep needing to pick my jaw up off the floor; the Adagio from the Sixth is utterly exquisite.

I've had that feeling before. That Adagio from the 6th really is something otherworldly.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 30, 2013, 11:23:43 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 30, 2013, 03:32:54 AM
Agreed, underrated is quite correct!

Bruckner supposedly said that "Die Sechste is die Keckste" i.e. "The Sixth is the sassiest."  Not only in the thematic material but also in its treatment contrapuntally and harmonically there is an edge-pushing "sassiness" throughout. 

Listen for instance to the final minutes of the slow movement, where the sad little funeral march has returned, which then gives away to an ascension and a farewell of hopefulness.  For me these few minutes are a blissful shattering, especially as the decades tick away.

Didn't some musicologist give the 6th the subtitle of The Saucy Maid?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on January 30, 2013, 11:47:02 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 30, 2013, 11:23:43 AM
Didn't some musicologist give the 6th the subtitle of The Saucy Maid?

No... but there's an unattributed (as far as I know) tag of "Das kecke Beserl" to the FIRST, which would be translated to the "Saucy Maid". The similarity is the word "keck" -- which was taken out for the Sixth (verifiably by Bruckner himself) because it rhymes, in its superlative form ("Keckste") with Sixth ("Sechste").
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on January 30, 2013, 02:52:07 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PgoiLFcRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Comparing the Toshiba EMI CD issue of Schuricht's VPO 9 with the HDTracks 24/96 download.  If I had to say something, the 24/96 files sound marginally warmer and more spacious.  I think everyone else can probably safely go with the cheaper recent SACD release (which includes the 8th) or the even better deal of the Schuricht Icon box, which includes the 3rd.  I'll probably get the Icon box anyway.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ij4FKRTvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KnnGNGQiL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 30, 2013, 02:56:23 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 30, 2013, 11:47:02 AM
No... but there's an unattributed (as far as I know) tag of "Das kecke Beserl" to the FIRST, which would be translated to the "Saucy Maid". The similarity is the word "keck" -- which was taken out for the Sixth (verifiably by Bruckner himself) because it rhymes, in its superlative form ("Keckste") with Sixth ("Sechste").

Yes, you're right, Jens. Thanks for the information. The 6th is nicknamed The Philosophical is what I read. What's the story of this nickname?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 30, 2013, 03:09:51 PM
Quote from: Daverz on January 30, 2013, 02:52:07 PM

Comparing the Toshiba EMI CD issue of Schuricht's VPO 9 with the HDTracks 24/96 download.  If I had to say something, the 24/96 files sound marginally warmer and more spacious.  I think everyone else can probably safely go with the cheaper recent SACD release (which includes the 8th) or the even better deal of the Schuricht Icon box, which includes the 3rd.  I'll probably get the Icon box anyway.


I recall a review of Schuricht's recordings of Bruckner from the 1950's (maybe early '60's), where the writer called the conductor "no nonsense" and "straight-forward."

I had an Angel or Seraphim LP with the Ninth and it was most excellent: I wonder if the above mentioned CD is the same performance.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 30, 2013, 02:56:23 PM
Yes, you're right, Jens. Thanks for the information. The 6th is nicknamed The Philosophical is what I read. What's the story of this nickname?

It comes, if I am remembering correctly, from an American critic named Engel, who wrote for Chord and Discord the journal of the Bruckner Society of America.   When I joined, they sent me back issues from the early 1950's, and his essay was in one of the issues. 

No, I no longer have those!   0:)

Anyway, the name (and I think Engel was not quoting anybody) does not come from a Bruckner contemporary.  It was Engel's idea.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on January 30, 2013, 03:11:58 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 30, 2013, 02:56:23 PM
Yes, you're right, Jens. Thanks for the information. The 6th is nicknamed The Philosophical is what I read. What's the story of this nickname?

I've seen "Pastoral" -- I think this was on the back of a Skrowaczewski CD -- but this was probably just a confused cover designer.    I've also seen "Apocalyptic" for the 8th (not used anymore, says Wikipedia).  And Wikipedia gives "Symphony of Pauses" for No. 2, which I hadn't seen before.

Quote from: Cato on January 30, 2013, 03:09:51 PM
I had an Angel or Seraphim LP with the Ninth and it was most excellent: I wonder if the above mentioned CD is the same performance.

Yes, it's the same recording.  I still have the Seraphim Lp, fuzzy muzzy surfaces and all, and even there the quality of the recording shines through.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 30, 2013, 03:20:15 PM
Quote from: Daverz on January 30, 2013, 03:11:58 PM
And Wikipedia gives "Symphony of Pauses" for No. 2, which I hadn't seen before.

Oh yes!  As opposed to what I wrote above about "The Philosophical," Bruckner contemporaries are responsible for Die Pausensymphonie.  It was meant to be a nasty comment.

Thanks for the information on the Schuricht, Daverz!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 30, 2013, 03:27:50 PM
Thanks Cato and Daverz for the feedback. I don't take them names seriously just like I don't take the nicknames given to Mahler's symphonies seriously. I think the only name Bruckner gave any of his symphonies was his 4th The Romantic. Is this right?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on January 30, 2013, 09:05:14 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 30, 2013, 03:20:15 PM
Oh yes!  As opposed to what I wrote above about "The Philosophical," Bruckner contemporaries are responsible for Die Pausensymphonie.  It was meant to be a nasty comment.

Thanks for the information on the Schuricht, Daverz!

I'm not sure about Pausensymphonie--I would think Posaunensymphonie might be more apt, if equally trite.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: trung224 on February 04, 2013, 04:08:38 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 30, 2013, 04:38:33 AM
I think it's a fair assessment (or at least an understandable one) to not think of Haitink as a great Bruckner conductor if one doesn't know the late recordings. If you compare his unofficial, scattered SACD semi-cycle (http://www.amazon.com/lm/R3AZ7P8N8MVIT9/?_encoding=UTF8&tag=nectarandambr-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=390957&lm_bb=) (4-8, currently, with five different orchestras on five different labels, 5, 6, and 7 of which are out of this world) to his first integrale, there's a tremendous improvement in spirit and certainty and the inherently compelling quality. Compared to that, the OOP Philips cycle is just solid.

A Survey of Bruckner Cycles
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)

The idea the Sixth is an underrated favorite, I've been pushing since I've been writing about it. Happy to see that I'm hardly alone in that assessment.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-no-80b-bruckner-6.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-no-80b-bruckner-6.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/ionarts-at-large-youthful-bruckner-with.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/ionarts-at-large-youthful-bruckner-with.html)
Wonderful list, jlaurson. But I would add the incomplete cycle from Janowski on Pentatone.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 05, 2013, 02:22:38 AM
Quote from: trung224 on February 04, 2013, 04:08:38 PM

  Wonderful list, jlaurson. But I would add the incomplete cycle from Janowski on Pentatone.

Thanks - Good point -- and will do, when it's complete and/or boxed. (Just like Young & Bolton.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 05, 2013, 12:44:33 PM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aRBqVEFm6bU/UPm2FsFICBI/AAAAAAAAF8M/EMaiDsgkkPE/s1600/Anton_Bruckner_II_laurson_600.jpg)

Ionarts-at-Large: Gergiev's First Time
Gergiev's first concert after officially being announced and presented as the incoming Principal Conductor of the MPhil couldn't have been more symbolic...

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/02/ionarts-at-large-gergievs-first-time.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/02/ionarts-at-large-gergievs-first-time.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 05, 2013, 01:09:49 PM
The Toledo Symphony continues its recent tradition of playing the symphonies of Bruckner in Rosary Cathedral, the seat of the Catholic diocese of Toledo.

This year they play the Second Symphony.

See:

http://www.toledosymphony.com/1213-season/bruckner-program-notes/ (http://www.toledosymphony.com/1213-season/bruckner-program-notes/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2013, 01:17:38 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 05, 2013, 01:09:49 PM
The Toledo Symphony continues its recent tradition of playing the symphonies of Bruckner in Rosary Cathedral, the seat of the Catholic diocese of Toledo.

This year they play the Second Symphony.

Cato, do you know if Allan (toledobass) is still a member of the orchestra?

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Papy Oli on February 05, 2013, 02:04:20 PM
A 70's Documentary on Bruckner :

http://youtu.be/TuR91m2ksaE (http://youtu.be/TuR91m2ksaE)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on February 05, 2013, 02:16:44 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 05, 2013, 02:04:20 PM
A 70's Documentary on Bruckner :

http://youtu.be/TuR91m2ksaE (http://youtu.be/TuR91m2ksaE)

Brilliant, thanks very much for that.  I will watch it shortly!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 05, 2013, 02:41:36 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2013, 01:17:38 PM
Cato, do you know if Allan (toledobass) is still a member of the orchestra?

Sarge

I assume so: I just checked and Allan has been active here up to 3 weeks ago.  So I sent him a message.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 05, 2013, 02:47:37 PM
Quote from: Scots John on February 05, 2013, 02:16:44 PM
Brilliant, thanks very much for that.  I will watch it shortly!

Performances by Kempe and the... hmm... I would guess the MPhil.

And Kubelik / WPh (B4, 1971)... and Jochum with... also the WPh, I think.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 05, 2013, 04:21:46 PM
I've been listening to Bruckner for almost 20 years now, but just recently began to actually explore his extensive library of recorded symphonies. For example, I've only heard 3 versions of the 6th up until the last few months. I have now heard 10 versions. I have always considered the 5th and 7th to be Bruckner's greatest achievements with the symphonic genre, and although I have always respected the 6th (mostly the majestic first movement and transcendent Adagio), I never placed it high among these others.
But I'm starting to recognize the pull of Bruckner's music, the absolute enthrallment that forces the listener to return over and over, and it's simply to explore as many recordings as possible!
Let me explain, my recordings of the 6th I've lived with for many years have been Dohnanyi, Barenboim and Lobos-Cobos. I love Dohnanyi and Barenboim's performances equally. Dohnanyi and Cleveland are precise and progress-through swiftly with ease. Barenboim and Berlin are gutsy. I've been very satisfied with these 6's. Recently, thanks to Spotify (no, I'm not being paid by them for this) I was able to listen to Norrington's 6th, then one from Wand, and Haitink, Eschenbach, Colin Davis, etc...and found that the more I listened to the 6th, and its many interpretations, the more I realized it's more than just the symphony between the 5th and 7th.
I would think that most here would agree with me, that Bruckner's symphonies are a whole, and that the experience of listening to an Adagio by itself is minuscule compared to it in the context of the surrounding movements. With that said, I'm finding the 6th to be one of Bruckner's most well structured symphonies. By listening to it repeatedly with different interpretations, I'm discovering that all of these performances are locked in to the grandiose association of the movements, all containing a consistent current throughout despite tempi choices. Perhaps a stronger association than many of his other symphonies.
I'm having difficulty finding the one recording that I find immaculately translates Bruckner's 6th better than any other, and this is not a bad thing. This has been a journey that I hope does not end anytime soon.

Happy listening!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 05, 2013, 04:47:39 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 05, 2013, 04:21:46 PM
I've been listening to Bruckner for almost 20 years now, but just recently began to actually explore his extensive library of recorded symphonies.

Now that's what I would call a rookie!   0:) ;)

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 05, 2013, 04:21:46 PM
But I'm starting to recognize the pull of Bruckner's music, the absolute enthrallment that forces the listener to return over and over, and it's simply to explore as many recordings as possible!

We welcome all   :-*   to the Bruckner Experience, be it ever so late!    :D

Listening to Bruckner can become a principle of Life.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 05, 2013, 04:21:46 PM
...and found that the more I listened to the 6th, and its many interpretations, the more I realized it's more than just the symphony between the 5th and 7th.


From my (as yet) unpublished novel The Seven Souls of Chaos: a young organist named Tom has adapted for his instrument the last minutes of the Adagio from the Sixth Symphony for the Requiem of child killed in a bicycle accident.

     So then Tom began to play the Bruckner excerpt.  The first two bars seemed more tragic than in practice, and he had to ignore an impulse to cut the repetition of the opening four-bar theme that he had interpolated into the piece.  The next two bars rose and evoked more of a cry of anguish than any hope!  What was happening?  Those two bars were supposed to argue with the first ones, not commiserate!  When the repetition came, Tom quickly changed the stops and made the music softer.  That was better.  Now a short dialogue in the upper register ensued, followed by a chorale that gave a distant angelicity to the opening.  Then an upward struggle with sixteenth notes, ending in a huge, slow, climactic descent in eighth notes.  But this was no descent into hopelessness, rather it was an affirmation of a foundation and of a connection between heaven and earth, a Jacob's Ladder being extended downward to all those who had the faith to take the first step.  And then the farewell most serene, the flute-and-clarinet melody slowly hovering on high, waving good-bye, as it fades away into the blissful otherworld.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on February 05, 2013, 04:54:54 PM
The 6th has also grown on me a lot over the last number of years.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on February 05, 2013, 05:11:01 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 05, 2013, 04:54:54 PM
The 6th has also grown on me a lot over the last number of years.  :)

Thumbs up! One my own personal favorites. I like the lighter textures of this symphony. That Scherzo movement has got to be tricky to play with those off-kilter rhythms.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on February 05, 2013, 05:22:25 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 05, 2013, 04:21:46 PM
I would think that most here would agree with me, that Bruckner's symphonies are a whole, and that the experience of listening to an Adagio by itself is minuscule compared to it in the context of the surrounding movements.

Yes.  The net result of all his symphonies stacked together in their entirety makes the scope of Bruckners musical vision a wee bit broader than that of his idol, Richard Wagner.   ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 05, 2013, 06:38:50 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 05, 2013, 04:47:39 PM

From my (as yet) unpublished novel The Seven Souls of Chaos: a young organist named Tom has adapted for his instrument the last minutes of the Adagio from the Sixth Symphony for the Requiem of child killed in a bicycle accident.

     So then Tom began to play the Bruckner excerpt.  The first two bars seemed more tragic than in practice, and he had to ignore an impulse to cut the repetition of the opening four-bar theme that he had interpolated into the piece.  The next two bars rose and evoked more of a cry of anguish than any hope!  What was happening?  Those two bars were supposed to argue with the first ones, not commiserate!  When the repetition came, Tom quickly changed the stops and made the music softer.  That was better.  Now a short dialogue in the upper register ensued, followed by a chorale that gave a distant angelicity to the opening.  Then an upward struggle with sixteenth notes, ending in a huge, slow, climactic descent in eighth notes.  But this was no descent into hopelessness, rather it was an affirmation of a foundation and of a connection between heaven and earth, a Jacob's Ladder being extended downward to all those who had the faith to take the first step.  And then the farewell most serene, the flute-and-clarinet melody slowly hovering on high, waving good-bye, as it fades away into the blissful otherworld.



Very touching, Cato. Thank you for sharing.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 06, 2013, 01:32:06 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 05, 2013, 04:47:39 PM



From my (as yet) unpublished novel The Seven Souls of Chaos: a young organist named Tom has adapted for his instrument the last minutes of the Adagio from the Sixth Symphony for the Requiem of child killed in a bicycle accident.

     So then Tom began to play the Bruckner excerpt.  The first two bars seemed more tragic than in practice, and he had to ignore an impulse to cut the repetition of the opening four-bar theme that he had interpolated into the piece.  The next two bars rose and evoked more of a cry of anguish than any hope!  What was happening?  Those two bars were supposed to argue with the first ones, not commiserate!  When the repetition came, Tom quickly changed the stops and made the music softer.  That was better.  Now a short dialogue in the upper register ensued, followed by a chorale that gave a distant angelicity to the opening.  Then an upward struggle with sixteenth notes, ending in a huge, slow, climactic descent in eighth notes.  But this was no descent into hopelessness, rather it was an affirmation of a foundation and of a connection between heaven and earth, a Jacob's Ladder being extended downward to all those who had the faith to take the first step.  And then the farewell most serene, the flute-and-clarinet melody slowly hovering on high, waving good-bye, as it fades away into the blissful otherworld.


As your literary agent (appointment pending), let me help you re-write this, to ensure commercial success:

Fifty Shades of Counterpoint


     Tom felt the enormous bellows of the organ pumping all around him. The shiny pipes emitted a storm of music, to which no one could deny him- or herself. From his stern brow fell a salty drop onto the keys in front of him. Tom didn't know whether it was sweat or tears. He shook his head with vigor, to move that black comma of hair back, that had fallen before his steel-green eyes. He enjoyed the sense of contained strength as he flexed his muscles quickly, before he delved into the excerpted Bruckner Adagio. The music sounded more tragic than ever before as he moved through the theme that he remembered so well, having composed it in the sauna, that night when Gaby had stayed with him. But as the music rose and evoked a cry of anguish, more than any hope, he banished the thoughts of her nubile body, those pert breasts covered, almost imperceptibly, by a peach-fuzz of hair. What was happening to him? To the music he was playing? The section he played now was supposed to argue with the first one, not commiserate!  Repeating the section, Tom stretched his muscular left arm to the console and pulled and pushed vigorously on those long, resistant knobs, the stops. He changed the color of the great organ, and the ferocious energy became softer, smoother, more seductive. Yes, that was better. He entered into a short dialogue with the music, one hand answering the other. Much like how Fiona and Bijou had done, after that champagne sodded night last week. Come to think of it, he still couldn't find the kitchen tongs. He would have to ask Bijou about them, last to have seen them, as she must have. But it was Consuela, with her thick black hair and alabaster white skin, fragile, almost too delicate for this world, and irresistible in her white vinyl boots, who reminded him of the distant angelicity of the opening, just as he played the chorale he had so carefully constructed. He struggled upward, with fast, riveting sixteenth notes before slipping into a huge, slow, climactic descent. Just. A little. Slower. It took all of Tom's strength to focus on the keys and pedals and pipes and stops in front of him, and not think of Imogen and her candle-trick. Would he ever see her again? Would he even still recognize her, after what had happened that night at the wolf sanctuary? But he had to focus... focus on the music what was pouring out of him. This was no descent into hopelessness! What his mind and body gave to the people below, collected in mourning but already transfixed with an ecstasy that was no longer just religious or filled with grief, was an affirmation. An affirmation of a foundation and of a connection between heaven and earth, a Jacob's Ladder being extended downward to all those who had the faith to take the first step.  Ladders... oh, yes, of course. The twins in East Berlin, Lilika and Liesel. He had had no idea that such things were even legal in the then communist country. And perhaps they hadn't been. But one thing was for sure: He would never look at cattle prods the same way... Tom thought, strangely aroused, as he came upon the farewell of his organ requiem: the most serene part, the flute-and-clarinet melody slowly hovering on high, waving good-bye, as it fades away into the blissful otherworld. Fade away like Yessenia did then, into the Okavango. It's not like he had not warned her of the dangers of crocoeroticism...
[/font]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 06, 2013, 03:36:23 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 06, 2013, 01:32:06 AM
As your literary agent (appointment pending), let me help you re-write this, to ensure commercial success:...

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  Well, I could write like that, and then commit suicide out of shame.   8)

So is that what those books are like?  My my my!

As Samuel Goldwyn supposedly said: "Include me out!"
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 06, 2013, 03:57:27 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 06, 2013, 03:36:23 AM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  Well, I could write like that,

Quoteand then commit suicide out of shame.   8)


I feel like you are cheapening my accomplishment.  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 06, 2013, 04:04:57 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 06, 2013, 03:57:27 AM
I feel like you are cheapening my accomplishment.  ;)

;D  Heh heh!  A professor once used the "pop novels" of Sidney Sheldon as examples of dreadful writing, in fact writing so dreadful it satirized itself.

Sheldon laughed all the way to the bank of course!  As is the perpetrator of these "50 Shades" books.   :P
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 06, 2013, 04:05:06 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 06, 2013, 03:36:23 AM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  Well, I could write like that, and then commit suicide out of shame.   8)

So is that what those books are like?  My my my!

No, Jens' Fifty is too well-written  ;D ...plus, his protagonist doesn't "blush" after each recollected encounter; nor does his breath "hitch." In the original, the heroine blushes at least twice per page, and her breath hitches every other page. Also Jens doesn't mention how the guy's pants hang, fall from his hips. This is repeatedly mentioned in the original (at least 30 times). I didn't realize that odd fact turns women on. Apparently if you are the most beautiful man on earth, young, have millions in the bank and wear pants well, you'll get all the chicks...even though you stalk them and beat them up on occasion.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 06, 2013, 04:10:33 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 06, 2013, 04:05:06 AM
No, Jens' Fifty is too well-written  ;D ...plus, his protagonist doesn't "blush" after each recollected encounter; nor does his breath "hitch." In the original, the heroine blushes at least twice per page, and her breath hitches every other page..

Sarge

Perhaps those are meant to be literary leitmotifs a la Wagner!  0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 06, 2013, 04:19:00 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 06, 2013, 04:10:33 AM
Perhaps those are meant to be literary leitmotifs a la Wagner!  0:)

:D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on February 06, 2013, 04:21:07 AM
Even when singing hocket, I don't permit my breath to hitch.

And when on duty, I don't permit my breath to hooch, either . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 06, 2013, 10:36:22 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 06, 2013, 04:05:06 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 05, 2013, 04:47:39 PM



From my (as yet) unpublished novel The Seven Souls of Chaos: a young organist named Tom has adapted for his instrument the last minutes of the Adagio from the Sixth Symphony for the Requiem of child killed in a bicycle accident.

     So then Tom began to play the Bruckner excerpt.  The first two bars seemed more tragic than in practice, and he had to ignore an impulse to cut the repetition of the opening four-bar theme that he had interpolated into the piece.  The next two bars rose and evoked more of a cry of anguish than any hope!  What was happening?  Those two bars were supposed to argue with the first ones, not commiserate!  When the repetition came, Tom quickly changed the stops and made the music softer.  That was better.  Now a short dialogue in the upper register ensued, followed by a chorale that gave a distant angelicity to the opening.  Then an upward struggle with sixteenth notes, ending in a huge, slow, climactic descent in eighth notes.  But this was no descent into hopelessness, rather it was an affirmation of a foundation and of a connection between heaven and earth, a Jacob's Ladder being extended downward to all those who had the faith to take the first step.  And then the farewell most serene, the flute-and-clarinet melody slowly hovering on high, waving good-bye, as it fades away into the blissful otherworld.


As your literary agent (appointment pending), let me help you re-write this, to ensure commercial success:

Fifty Shades of Counterpoint


     Tom felt the enormous bellows of the organ pumping all around him. The shiny pipes emitted a storm of music, to which no one could deny him- or herself. From his stern brow fell a salty drop onto the keys in front of him. Tom didn't know whether it was sweat or tears. He shook his head with vigor, to move that black comma of hair back, that had fallen before his steel-green eyes. He enjoyed the sense of contained strength as he flexed his muscles quickly, before he delved into the excerpted Bruckner Adagio.
     The music sounded more tragic than ever before as he moved through the theme that he remembered so well, having composed it in the sauna, that night when Gaby had stayed with him. But as the music rose and evoked a cry of anguish, more than any hope, he banished the thoughts of her nubile body, those pert breasts covered, almost imperceptibly, by a peach-fuzz of hair. What was happening to him? To the music he was playing? The section he played now was supposed to argue with the first one, not commiserate! 
     Repeating the section, Tom stretched his muscular left arm to the console and pulled and pushed vigorously on those long, resistant knobs, the stops. He changed the color of the great organ, and the ferocious energy became softer, smoother, more seductive. Yes, that was better. He entered into a short dialogue with the music, one hand answering the other. Much like how Fiona and Bijou had done, after that champagne sodded night last week. Come to think of it, he still couldn't find the kitchen tongs. He would have to ask Bijou about them, last to have seen them, that she was.
     But it was Consuela, with her thick black hair and alabaster white skin, fragile, almost too delicate for this world, and irresistible in her white vinyl boots, who reminded him of the distant angelicity of the opening, just as he played the chorale he had so carefully constructed. He struggled upward, with fast, riveting sixteenth notes before slipping into a huge, slow, climactic descent. Just. A little. Slower.
     It took all of Tom's strength to focus on the keys and pedals and pipes and stops in front of him, and not think of Imogen and her candle-trick. Would he ever see her again? Would he even still recognize her, after what had happened that night at the wolf sanctuary? But he had to focus... focus on the music what was pouring out of him. This was no descent into hopelessness! What his mind and body gave to the people below, collected in mourning but already transfixed with an ecstasy that was no longer just religious or filled with grief, was an affirmation. An affirmation of a foundation and of a connection between heaven and earth, a Jacob's Ladder being extended downward to all those who had the faith to take the first step. 
     Ladders... oh, yes, of course. The twins in East Berlin, Lilika and Liesel. He had had no idea that such things were even legal in the then communist country. And perhaps they hadn't been. But one thing was for sure: He would never look at cattle prods the same way... Tom thought, strangely aroused, as he came upon the farewell of his organ requiem: the most serene part, the flute-and-clarinet melody slowly hovering on high, waving good-bye, as it fades away into the blissful otherworld. Fade away like Yessenia did then, into the Okavango. It's not like he had not warned her of the dangers of crocoeroticism...
[/font]

Quote from: Cato on February 06, 2013, 03:36:23 AM
So is that what those books are like?  My my my!

No, Jens' Fifty is too well-written  ;D ...plus, his protagonist doesn't "blush" after each recollected encounter; nor does his breath "hitch." In the original, the heroine blushes at least twice per page, and her breath hitches every other page. Also Jens doesn't mention how the guy's pants hang, fall from his hips. This is repeatedly mentioned in the original (at least 30 times). I didn't realize that odd fact turns women on. Apparently if you are the most beautiful man on earth, young, have millions in the bank and wear pants well, you'll get all the chicks...even though you stalk them and beat them up on occasion.

Sarge

aw. chucks.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 06, 2013, 12:45:42 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 06, 2013, 10:36:22 AM
aw. chucks.

I'm serious. That was brilliant, Jens. You have a future as a parodist  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 06, 2013, 12:53:22 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 06, 2013, 12:45:42 PM
I'm serious. That was brilliant, Jens. You have a future as a parodist  8)

Sarge

And to think that I've not read even a paragraph of the original... (the press release of the EMI compilation "50 Shades of Gray" was quite enough).

I'll take parodist, if I finally give up hope on originalism.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 06, 2013, 12:58:51 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 06, 2013, 12:53:22 PM
And to think that I've not read even a paragraph of the original... (the press release of the EMI compilation "50 Shades of Gray" was quite enough).

I'll take parodist, if I finally give up hope on originalism. Care to see the NSO in Frankfurt (w/Steinbacher & Eschenbach), btw? I could swing a ticket or two for you and the Missus.

Steinbacher, Eschenbach? Wow...I so want to go. Unfortunately, I'm in worse shape than I was at the Rott concert. I'm in the process of getting into the Schmerzklinic Mainz...hoping they have a Dr. Haus who can finally cure me. I appreciate the offer but I'm not sure I'm up to it. When is the concert?

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: trung224 on February 06, 2013, 01:55:46 PM
  Personally, I found each composer (at least with composers I'm familiar with)  has at least one "whoreson" piece , which is very different with his composed trend. For Beethoven it is the Pastoral, Brahms with the Third Symphony, Dvorak with the Seventh Symphony, Mahler with the Fourth symphony, Bach with BWV 1052 and BWV 565, Sibelius with the Sixth Symphony, Chopin with the Heroic Etude. For Bruckner, I think it is the  Sixth, which has the usual Brucknerian Adagio, but other movements are  light and lovely Schubertian texture. I'm a Bruckner's admirer, but I found the Sixth problematic, because it's very hard to mix both character, monumental and earthy, into one. Many conductors ,who try to monumentalize it like Jochum, Karajan , fails completely. Most of successful performances I have heard almost take the Symphony like a classical symphony by speed up the Adagio like Klemperer, Keilberth, Stein, Wand on Profil or  slowing down all movement and mellow the contrast like Celibidache, Bongartz or Haitink on Profil. Both way creates the logic between movements but I missed some cosmic, mysterious quality of Bruckner music, especially in the Adagio.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mszczuj on February 07, 2013, 01:49:57 AM
Quote from: trung224 on February 06, 2013, 01:55:46 PM
  Personally, I found each composer (at least with composer I'm familiar with)  has at least one "whoreson" piece , which is very different with their composed trend.

What you call "their" is only yours.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on February 08, 2013, 01:23:06 PM
This day was a personal landmark: first time I ever listened to three Bruckner symphonies in a single day!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 08, 2013, 03:10:22 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 08, 2013, 01:23:06 PM
This day was a personal landmark: first time I ever listened to three Bruckner symphonies in a single day!

Yay team!   0:)

Besides #6, which ones did you hear?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on February 08, 2013, 03:51:47 PM
Eight & Nine. Woot!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 10, 2013, 02:00:27 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 08, 2013, 03:51:47 PM
Eight & Nine. Woot!

A few years ago I heard the Toledo Symphony (toledobass i.e. Allan plays with them) performing the Eighth Symphony in the Catholic cathedral there: wonderful experience.  My then 20-something son went along and enjoyed it, and he usually listens to "music" that sounds like people falling out of helicopters.  ???

I mentioned earlier that the Toledo Symphony will play the Symphony #2 at the same cathedral next month.

q.v.

(http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/22327112.jpg)

(http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/45194202.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 10, 2013, 03:58:42 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510UlKmT5JL._SL550_AA350_.jpg)

First Listen to this recording.
2013 is turning out to be The Year of Bruckner. This is the 10th recording of No.8 i've heard, and it's the greatest.
It's majestic, otherworldly, patient, broad, lyrical... I feel as if my descriptions could go on forever. The Adagio was frightening and poetic, an angelical-cosmic journey that at times took my breath away.
All I know is that this is the first recording that has opened my mind to the thought of the 8th not only being Bruckner's crowning achievement, but one from the entire genre.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 10, 2013, 04:16:20 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 10, 2013, 03:58:42 PM

First Listen to this recording.
2013 is turning out to be The Year of Bruckner. This is the 10th recording of No.8 i've heard, and it's the greatest.
It's majestic, otherworldly, patient, broad, lyrical... I feel as if my descriptions could go on forever. The Adagio was frightening and poetic, an angelical-cosmic journey that at times took my breath away.
All I know is that this is the first recording that has opened my mind to the thought of the 8th not only being Bruckner's crowning achievement, but one from the entire genre.

Many thanks for the information! 

I see it is a live performance: how much noise from the audience is there? 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 10, 2013, 04:35:28 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 10, 2013, 04:16:20 PM
Many thanks for the information! 

I see it is a live performance: how much noise from the audience is there?

I dont recall any, Cato. Even during the Adagio, and if there was any noise it never distracted.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 11, 2013, 02:24:58 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 10, 2013, 03:58:42 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510UlKmT5JL._SL550_AA350_.jpg)
A.Bruckner
Symphony No.8
G.Wand / BPh
RCA (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q66Y/nectarandambr-20)

First Listen to this recording.
2013 is turning out to be The Year of Bruckner. This is the 10th recording of No.8 i've heard, and it's the greatest.
It's majestic, otherworldly, patient, broad, lyrical... I feel as if my descriptions could go on forever. The Adagio was frightening and poetic, an angelical-cosmic journey that at times took my breath away.
All I know is that this is the first recording that has opened my mind to the thought of the 8th not only being Bruckner's crowning achievement, but one from the entire genre.

Welcome to the club. This is in fact* the greatest Bruckner 8th (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/bruckner-divine-and-beautiful.html).  :)

No, CATO, no audience noises that get in the way... these are very well recorded, and the audience was on its best behavior... probably spell-bound. By the time this recording was made, attending a B8 with Wand live was already a bit of a pilgrimage. Most everyone there knew what they were in for, and concentrated.


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/best-recordings-of-2012-7.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/best-recordings-of-2012-7.html)

(* by fact I mean: My opinion, a well-considered one, however, and informed by experiences of others)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 11, 2013, 02:44:58 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 11, 2013, 02:24:58 AM
Welcome to the club. This is in fact* the greatest Bruckner 8th (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/bruckner-divine-and-beautiful.html).  :)

No, CATO, no audience noises that get in the way... these are very well recorded, and the audience was on its best behavior... probably spell-bound. By the time this recording was made, attending a B8 with Wand live was already a bit of a pilgrimage. Most everyone there knew what they were in for, and concentrated.


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/best-recordings-of-2012-7.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/best-recordings-of-2012-7.html)

(* by fact I mean: My opinion, a well-considered one, however, and informed by experiences of others)
I only have a handful of 8ths, but can corroborate the others - it IS a great recording. I think GSMoeller gives a good description of it too.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 11, 2013, 02:56:51 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 11, 2013, 02:24:58 AM
Welcome to the club. This is in fact* the greatest Bruckner 8th (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/bruckner-divine-and-beautiful.html).  :)

No, CATO, no audience noises that get in the way... these are very well recorded, and the audience was on its best behavior... probably spell-bound. By the time this recording was made, attending a B8 with Wand live was already a bit of a pilgrimage. Most everyone there knew what they were in for, and concentrated.


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/best-recordings-of-2012-7.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/best-recordings-of-2012-7.html)

(* by fact I mean: My opinion, a well-considered one, however, and informed by experiences of others)

Confirmed!  ;D

Thanks for the links, Jens.



Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 11, 2013, 02:44:58 AM
I only have a handful of 8ths, but can corroborate the others - it IS a great recording. I think GSMoeller gives a good description of it too.

Thanks, Neal. It's been a while since a first listen has truly captured my attention the way Wand/BPO's 8th just did. The main reason I bought this is because their 4th on RCA was quite magical, now I see their 7th and 5th in my immediate future.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on February 11, 2013, 05:01:00 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 11, 2013, 02:24:58 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 10, 2013, 03:58:42 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510UlKmT5JL._SL550_AA350_.jpg)

First Listen to this recording.
2013 is turning out to be The Year of Bruckner. This is the 10th recording of No.8 i've heard, and it's the greatest.
It's majestic, otherworldly, patient, broad, lyrical... I feel as if my descriptions could go on forever. The Adagio was frightening and poetic, an angelical-cosmic journey that at times took my breath away.
All I know is that this is the first recording that has opened my mind to the thought of the 8th not only being Bruckner's crowning achievement, but one from the entire genre.


Welcome to the club. This is in fact* the greatest Bruckner 8th (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/bruckner-divine-and-beautiful.html).  :)

No, CATO, no audience noises that get in the way... these are very well recorded, and the audience was on its best behavior... probably spell-bound. By the time this recording was made, attending a B8 with Wand live was already a bit of a pilgrimage. Most everyone there knew what they were in for, and concentrated.


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/best-recordings-of-2012-7.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/best-recordings-of-2012-7.html)

(* by fact I mean: My opinion, a well-considered one, however, and informed by experiences of others)

More Danger in the Abbey . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 11, 2013, 05:56:15 AM
Okay, am I correct in deducing that even though Amazon lists the recording as coming out in 2001, this particular version is a new re-issue?

I also saw that there is a set with symphonies IV, V, VII, VIII, and IX.  I assume that this VIII which many are recommending is also the same as in the set?

i.e.

[asin]B006H4EXF6[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 11, 2013, 06:16:22 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 11, 2013, 05:56:15 AM
Okay, am I correct in deducing that even though Amazon lists the recording as coming out in 2001, this particular version is a new re-issue?

I also saw that there is a set with symphonies IV, V, VII, VIII, and IX.  I assume that this VIII which many are recommending is also the same as in the set?


No, and yes.

No: There are funny things going on with the availability and distribution (US vs. Europe) of Wand's Berlin Bruckner recordings on RCA... but the above shows the issue that's been around since 2001. Apart from similar looking Japanese SACD releases of the same recordings, nothing or little has changed... except that RCA may have cooked up a new batch.

Yes: That is the recording included in this set of all the five Wand-Berlin-Bruckner recordings. 4, 5, 7, 8 have a similar look; 9 I never saw outside the red mid-price RCA Red Seal Classics Library.

See also "A Survey of Bruckner Cycles"
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 11, 2013, 06:28:38 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 11, 2013, 02:24:58 AM
This is in fact* the greatest Bruckner 8th (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/bruckner-divine-and-beautiful.html).  :)

There can't ever be such a thing.  ;) Especially not when there are the Boulez/VPO and Schuricht/VPO and Tennstedt to consider.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 11, 2013, 09:25:54 AM
Quote from: MishaK on February 11, 2013, 06:28:38 AM
There can't ever be such a thing.  ;) Especially not when there are the Boulez/VPO and Schuricht/VPO and Tennstedt to consider.

While perusing the Amazon listings of Wand/Berlin Philharmonic/ Symphony #8, I came across this:

[asin]B0079J26S4[/asin]

Any comments on the Hybrid SACD quality?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 11, 2013, 10:58:48 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 11, 2013, 09:25:54 AM
While perusing the Amazon listings of Wand/Berlin Philharmonic/ Symphony #8, I came across this:

[asin]B0079J26S4[/asin]

Any comments on the Hybrid SACD quality?

I can't comment on the SACD quality. I only own the previous incarnation of the 8th from the Great Conductors series and a Japanese issue of the 9th (as well as an LP of the 9th). The 8th belongs in the pantheon of great Bruckner performances. An urgent reading that just grabs you from the first note and doesn't let go until the end. There is a nervous energy that permeates even the slow parts, so there is never a feeling of ponderousness or disconnection of the individual segments. A truly great performance. The 9th is very good too.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 11, 2013, 11:12:46 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 11, 2013, 09:25:54 AM
While perusing the Amazon listings of Wand/Berlin Philharmonic/ Symphony #8, I came across this:
Any comments on the Hybrid SACD quality?
Quote from: MishaK on February 11, 2013, 10:58:48 AM
I can't comment on the SACD quality. I only own the previous incarnation of the 8th from the Great Conductors series and a Japanese issue of the 9th (as well as an LP of the 9th). The 8th belongs in the pantheon of great Bruckner performances. An urgent reading that just grabs you from the first note and doesn't let go until the end. There is a nervous energy that permeates even the slow parts, so there is never a feeling of ponderousness or disconnection of the individual segments. A truly great performance. The 9th is very good too.

What he said.  
Best Recordings of 2012 (#9)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/best-recordings-of-2012-9.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/best-recordings-of-2012-9.html)

Though I would also say that I see this 8th as a complement to a fine Bruckner collection (which would include at least Wand  and one or two others among 8ths, alone), not (anymore) a cornerstone.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on February 11, 2013, 11:14:48 AM
Quote from: MishaK on February 11, 2013, 10:58:48 AM
I can't comment on the SACD quality. I only own the previous incarnation of the 8th from the Great Conductors series and a Japanese issue of the 9th (as well as an LP of the 9th). The 8th belongs in the pantheon of great Bruckner performances. An urgent reading that just grabs you from the first note and doesn't let go until the end. There is a nervous energy that permeates even the slow parts, so there is never a feeling of ponderousness or disconnection of the individual segments. A truly great performance. The 9th is very good too.

I wonder if the SACDs have the same transfer of the 9th as the 24/96 file from HDTracks.  The 24/96 file seems marginally better than the Japanese CD, but I'm not sure I could tell them apart in a blind test.

By coinkadink, I also just ordered the Schuricht Icon box.  (Sorry, I haven't answered the question, either.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 14, 2013, 06:14:45 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YT2DAU%2BhL._SX350_.jpg)


A massive performance. Broad phrasing with a bold LPO sound, a truly majestic 6th with an exquisite 20-minute Adagio
Live recording, great sound with great range, very few coughs.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 15, 2013, 10:08:56 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 14, 2013, 06:14:45 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YT2DAU%2BhL._SX350_.jpg)


A massive performance. Broad phrasing with a bold LPO sound, a truly majestic 6th with an exquisite 20-minute Adagio
Live recording, great sound with great range, very few coughs.

I listened to this a while back on Spotify and it didn't really do it for me. May have to revisit. I heard Eschenbach do a marvellous 8th with NYPO several years back. He's supposed to do 9 with CSO here next season. BTW, if you have access to the BPO digital concert hall, there is a terrific 6 with Chailly in the archive.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 17, 2013, 08:00:08 AM
Quote from: MishaK on February 15, 2013, 10:08:56 AM
I listened to this a while back on Spotify and it didn't really do it for me. May have to revisit. I heard Eschenbach do a marvellous 8th with NYPO several years back. He's supposed to do 9 with CSO here next season. BTW, if you have access to the BPO digital concert hall, there is a terrific 6 with Chailly in the archive.

Thanks for the info, Mishak. I know you're in Chicago and I posted the new Grant Park Orchestra schedule for this upcoming season, they are performing Bruckner's 2nd in August.

This is the first Eschenbach/Bruckner performance I've heard. It reminded me of his Brahms, which to me is very patient and broad. 

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 17, 2013, 08:00:34 AM
Anton Bruckner: Jam Lucis Orto Sidere Dignare


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515%2BjauwkDL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WSB-fVZfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aLBz-WYAL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Have become obsessively fascinated with Bruckner's motet Jam Lucis Orto Sidere Dignare. Have found three highly successful but quite differently performed recordings. The first is from The Choir of St. Bride's Church, utilizing a mixed choir of both male and female voices, and an organ. Choir of St. Mary's Cathedral sounds to be performed only by a smaller male choir.  And finally the Choeurs d'enfants de Saint Christophe de Javel , a children's choir and solo tenor (an adult/mature voice) accompanied by organ. I only own the complete Naxos album of motets, and purchased the solo track on iTunes of the other two.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 17, 2013, 06:07:22 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 17, 2013, 08:00:34 AM
Anton Bruckner: Jam Lucis Orto Sidere Dignare

Have become obsessively fascinated with Bruckner's motet Jam Lucis Orto Sidere Dignare.


Can you give us a hint as to why this little 3-minute work has obsessed you?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on February 17, 2013, 06:20:48 PM
This is reminding me that I need to revisit the Masses . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 17, 2013, 06:39:08 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 17, 2013, 06:07:22 PM
Can you give us a hint as to why this little 3-minute work has obsessed you?

Robert Jones (Naxos) stretches it to almost 6 minutes  ;)

The main theme, or melody to Iam Lucis Orto, which opens the work and is repeated throughout, has a rising quality that is very ethereal. Each section of the melody reaches higher and higher in both pitch and dynamic. I may be a bit off on this, but I've had Iam lucis orto sidere translated to Now light arisen, and have seen other translations referring to a dawning light. I feel this music reflects that initial image perfectly. Having the theme repeated but in different combinations in the choir, or with a soloist, or even with an added accompaniment of organ continues to increase the effectiveness of this repeated theme. I'll admit I'm not very educated in sacred music, or their texts, but this Motet was a piece that initially struck me as special and lead me to research the text a bit further to understand Bruckner's inspiration.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on February 18, 2013, 04:11:13 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2013, 06:20:48 PM
This is reminding me that I need to revisit the Masses . . . .

*pounds the table!*

[asin]B001BBSE32[/asin]

Below the green lemon.  Second for me, only to Mozart's Great Mass in C minor.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on February 18, 2013, 10:16:30 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 17, 2013, 06:39:08 PM
Robert Jones (Naxos) stretches it to almost 6 minutes  ;)

The main theme, or melody to Iam Lucis Orto, which opens the work and is repeated throughout, has a rising quality that is very ethereal. Each section of the melody reaches higher and higher in both pitch and dynamic. I may be a bit off on this, but I've had Iam lucis orto sidere translated to Now light arisen, and have seen other translations referring to a dawning light. I feel this music reflects that initial image perfectly. Having the theme repeated but in different combinations in the choir, or with a soloist, or even with an added accompaniment of organ continues to increase the effectiveness of this repeated theme. I'll admit I'm not very educated in sacred music, or their texts, but this Motet was a piece that initially struck me as special and lead me to research the text a bit further to understand Bruckner's inspiration.

Thanks . . . that is not one of the five motets I've got . . . of course, I should have guessed that there are more.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 22, 2013, 06:03:27 AM
Although biased by the Nowak editions, I do like this recording of the "1872 Version"  (via William Carragan)very much, despite some occasional intonation problems in the orchestra (e.g. flute, horn):

[asin]B0000060D5[/asin]

A reviewer on Amazon trashes it with a one-star review, but I find that very wrong-headed.



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 22, 2013, 06:38:57 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 22, 2013, 06:03:27 AM
Although biased by the Nowak editions, I do like this recording of the "1872 Version"  (via William Carragan)very much, despite some occasional intonation problems in the orchestra (e.g. flute, horn):

[asin]B0000060D5[/asin]

A reviewer on Amazon trashes it with a one-star review, but I find that very wrong-headed.


Yes, I just ordered that myself after an enjoyable listen on Spotify. And if its the 1 star review that says this group lacks the sonority of a Brucknarian emsemble, that's wrong. It's a very good sounding performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 22, 2013, 06:51:54 AM
If you want the Carragan ed. first version of the 2nd, take this:

[asin]B0083FRA4S[/asin]

It's live and it's vastly superior in execution and conception than Tintner (or Young for that matter), plus you get some fine performances of the first version of 1 and the second version of 3 as well.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on February 22, 2013, 06:59:12 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 22, 2013, 06:03:27 AM
Although biased by the Nowak editions, I do like this recording of the "1872 Version"  (via William Carragan)very much, despite some occasional intonation problems in the orchestra (e.g. flute, horn):

[asin]B0000060D5[/asin]

A reviewer on Amazon trashes it with a one-star review, but I find that very wrong-headed.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 22, 2013, 06:38:57 AM
Yes, I just ordered that myself after an enjoyable listen on Spotify. And if its the 1 star review that says this group lacks the sonority of a Brucknarian emsemble, that's wrong. It's a very good sounding performance.
That so called review sure IS wrong.  Amazing some of the silly things that are said.  If it lacks the sonority of a 'Brucknerian ensemble' then that would be more the conductors fault than anything else, as it's his job to get them to sound that way.  However, Tintner was a brilliant Brucknerian, and even if he took an amateur orchestra he would have it sounding like Bruckner in no time.  Some reviewers just say things they've heard uttered from their assembled 'references', the philistines.    >:(  That kind of review makes me hopping mad too, as it's complete nonsense.   >:(

Thread Duty:  NOW...

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000060D5.01.L.jpg)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 22, 2013, 07:16:48 AM
Quote from: MishaK on February 22, 2013, 06:51:54 AM
If you want the Carragan ed. first version of the 2nd, take this:

[asin]B0083FRA4S[/asin]

It's live and it's vastly superior in execution and conception than Tintner (or Young for that matter), plus you get some fine performances of the first version of 1 and the second version of 3 as well.


Must...not...buy...more...Bruckner...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 22, 2013, 07:55:57 AM
Quote from: Scots John on February 22, 2013, 06:59:12 AM
That so called review sure IS wrong.  Amazing some of the silly things that are said.  If it lacks the sonority of a 'Brucknerian ensemble' then that would be more the conductors fault than anything else, as it's his job to get them to sound that way.  However, Tintner was a brilliant Brucknerian, and even if he took an amateur orchestra he would have it sounding like Bruckner in no time.  Some reviewers just say things they've heard uttered from their assembled 'references', the philistines.    >:(  That kind of review makes me hopping mad too, as it's complete nonsense.   >:(

I'm sorry that review bothers you. Sadly, it's spot on. Tintner was only considered a "brilliant Brucknerian" solely by those who fell for the hype at the initial issuance of this overrated Bruckner cycle, which made a splash at the time due to its budget price and coverage of underrecorded first editions. He was outside of the competition for that reason. But now that there is direct competition, that set has not aged well at all for a number of reasons. First and foremost there is the conductor. There is a reason his career always remained in the backwoods. It's not that third rate provincial orchestras with no "Bruckner tradition" can't play Bruckner idiomatically. They can, but it requires a great orchestra builder who knows what he must do on a technical level in order to get a certain sound from an orchestra not used to producing it. And Tintner simply is not a good orchestra builder, and you hear that with all the different ensembles on this cycle: attacks are fuzzy, intonation sometimes sketchy, balances off, dynamic differentiation barely enforced somewhere between mp and ff never mind the more detaild markings in the score, rhythms imprecise. And all this is despite the fact that the recordings seem to have been studio recordings with multiple takes. You can hear the pedantic phrasing and blocky nature of the structure as if the ensemble had been asked to start and stop at every rehearsal number in the score. I could go on. There is simply no excuse for this. But the easiest thing to do is to simply compare how lousy the RSNO sounds with Tintner when put against the same band on the same label with Denève. Different repertpore, I know, so not an exact apples-to-apples comparison, but it doesn't even sound like the same orchestra. The playing is on another level entirely. And I have seen and heard Denève live turn around a provincial orchestra in no time and get them to sound better than they do with other conductors, so, yes, that is a question of skill which Tintner apparently lacked. I didn't buy the hype about the Tintner set when it came out, and I buy it even less so now that there are so many superior alternatives for the early versions available. He simply isn't a good conductor and the Bruckner discography is too vast and rich to waste time on him. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on February 22, 2013, 08:08:27 AM
I'm not so down on Tintner as MishaK, but his recording of the first three symphonies were my introduction to Bruckner, and they made a very boring introduction indeed.  Fortunately I pressed on.  It's true that until I hit Karajan no one deeply impressed me with those first three symphonies,  but at least they  weren't as boring and pedantic sounding as Tintner.

I do have two Bruckner recordings that are more boring than Tintner's--Colin Davis 6 and 9/LSO Live. So it is possible to do worse with big name conductors.
Title: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on February 22, 2013, 09:08:26 AM
I have a real fondness for Tintner's account of the 2nd. It was my intro to that work.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2013, 09:26:44 AM
If I've counted correctly, it's four votes for Tintner's Second and two against. Put me with the majority. So it's five to two now  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on February 22, 2013, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2013, 09:26:44 AM
If I've counted correctly, it's four votes for Tintner's Second and two against. Put me with the majority. So it's five to two now  :D

Sarge

Excellant!!!  8) It feels good to be in the majority this one time!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on February 22, 2013, 10:00:55 AM
Maestro Tintner made those orchestras play out of their skins, the 1887 8th with the orchestra from Ireland especially. The Bruckner collector need have no fear that, by buying "budget" they are getting anything less than a first-class, thoroughly idiomatic account. Tintner is not afraid to linger a little over the more lyrical portions of a score and, despite all the nay-sayers, there are plenty of these. He also refuses to let the brass dominate at the cost of all other detail, something a few other conductors might learn from, in Bruckner and elsewhere. Connoisseurs may have known of Tintner's way with Bruckner for some years, in my humble opinion Tintner is a great Bruckner conductor in the grand manner. Less willful than Furtwängler or (Eugen) Jochum, he brings more of the classic grandeur we normally associate with Horenstein. But, different strokes and all that, I understand criticism is very subjective. It has to be.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 22, 2013, 10:04:09 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 22, 2013, 10:00:55 AM
Tintner is not afraid to linger a little over the more lyrical portions of a score...

That's an aspect of his 3rd that I really enjoy.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 22, 2013, 10:09:35 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 22, 2013, 10:00:55 AM
Maestro Tintner made those orchestras play out of their skins, the 1887 8th with the orchestra from Ireland especially. The Bruckner collector need have no fear that, by buying "budget" they are getting anything less than a first-class, thoroughly idiomatic account. Tintner is not afraid to linger a little over the more lyrical portions of a score and, despite all the nay-sayers, there are plenty of these. He also refuses to let the brass dominate at the cost of all other detail, something a few other conductors might learn from, in Bruckner and elsewhere. Connoisseurs may have known of Tintner's way with Bruckner for some years, in my humble opinion Tintner is a great Bruckner conductor in the grand manner. Less willful than Furtwängler or (Eugen) Jochum, he brings more of the classic grandeur we normally associate with Horenstein. But, different strokes and all that, I understand criticism is very subjective. It has to be.

I'm the last one to accuse him of being to fast. Almost any tempo can work well in Bruckner if done convincingly and if the tempo relationships of the movements are well considered. As to not allowing the brass to dominate, that is debatable. There are many moments where there doesn't appear to be any sort of control of this feature and plenty of occasions where detail (especially inner counterpoint) is buried. I highly recommend you take a very good listen to Skrowaczewski's cycle. You will not only hear cartloads of detail you never knew existed from listening to Tintner, you will also hear how those details fit in with an organic whole that isn't pasted together from blocks. Also, you will hear a true master conductor whip a nominally third rate orchestra into orchestral performances that need not fear comparison with Berlin or Amsterdam. It's simply musicianship on a different level.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on February 22, 2013, 10:32:27 AM
Quote from: MishaK on February 22, 2013, 10:09:35 AM
I'm the last one to accuse him of being to fast. Almost any tempo can work well in Bruckner if done convincingly and if the tempo relationships of the movements are well considered. As to not allowing the brass to dominate, that is debatable. There are many moments where there doesn't appear to be any sort of control of this feature and plenty of occasions where detail (especially inner counterpoint) is buried. I highly recommend you take a very good listen to Skrowaczewski's cycle. You will not only hear cartloads of detail you never knew existed from listening to Tintner, you will also hear how those details fit in with an organic whole that isn't pasted together from blocks. Also, you will hear a true master conductor whip a nominally third rate orchestra into orchestral performances that need not fear comparison with Berlin or Amsterdam. It's simply musicianship on a different level.

Misha, I will definitely give Skrowaczewski a try, I haven't heard his set, and I was looking at it yesterday and curious about it. Thanks for the heads up  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 22, 2013, 10:37:26 AM
Quote from: MishaK on February 22, 2013, 10:09:35 AM
I'm the last one to accuse him of being to fast. Almost any tempo can work well in Bruckner if done convincingly and if the tempo relationships of the movements are well considered. As to not allowing the brass to dominate, that is debatable. There are many moments where there doesn't appear to be any sort of control of this feature and plenty of occasions where detail (especially inner counterpoint) is buried. I highly recommend you take a very good listen to Skrowaczewski's cycle. You will not only hear cartloads of detail you never knew existed from listening to Tintner, you will also hear how those details fit in with an organic whole that isn't pasted together from blocks. Also, you will hear a true master conductor whip a nominally third rate orchestra into orchestral performances that need not fear comparison with Berlin or Amsterdam. It's simply musicianship on a different level.
I am in no way looking for more Bruckner, but I just wishlisted this anyway beacause of your description alone.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 22, 2013, 11:04:25 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 22, 2013, 10:37:26 AM
I am in no way looking for more Bruckner, but I just wishlisted this anyway beacause of your description alone.

8)

It really blew me away. I had not heard that cycle until I did a survey of all Bruckner recordings on Spotify two years or so ago. I would start out with the twenty or fifty or so recordings of each work and quickly eliminate those that didn't cohere, then listen to the complete performances of the top five to 12 or so performances. It was amazing to me that for almost every symphony Skro made the cut for consideration in the very final round. There is just so much to learn from his interpretation that you can listen repeatedly and not tire of them. Sure, there are others that are more "spiritual", more "lyrical" or what have you. But precious few who capture so much of the work in a single performance - and none who manage to do that for every symphony! He's just completely internalized the idiom.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on February 22, 2013, 11:11:40 AM
Quote from: MishaK on February 22, 2013, 11:04:25 AM
8)

It really blew me away. I had not heard that cycle until I did a survey of all Bruckner recordings on Spotify two years or so ago. I would start out with the twenty or fifty or so recordings of each work and quickly eliminate those that didn't cohere, then listen to the complete performances of the top five to 12 or so performances. It was amazing to me that for almost every symphony Skro made the cut for consideration in the very final round. There is just so much to learn from his interpretation that you can listen repeatedly and not tire of them. Sure, there are others that are more "spiritual", more "lyrical" or what have you. But precious few who capture so much of the work in a single performance - and none who manage to do that for every symphony! He's just completely internalized the idiom.

I'm glad that cycle is on Spotify! Thanks again for the heads up.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 22, 2013, 11:16:09 AM
Quote from: MishaK on February 22, 2013, 11:04:25 AM
8)

It really blew me away. I had not heard that cycle until I did a survey of all Bruckner recordings on Spotify two years or so ago. I would start out with the twenty or fifty or so recordings of each work and quickly eliminate those that didn't cohere, then listen to the complete performances of the top five to 12 or so performances. ...

:o :o :o 20 or 50! 

Misha K.: you must not have a wife, or if you are married, she is also an acolyte of Bruckner?!

Or she is very tolerant!   0:)

Question: do you listen with the scores?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 22, 2013, 11:41:45 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 22, 2013, 11:16:09 AM
:o :o :o 20 or 50! 

Misha K.: you must not have a wife, or if you are married, she is also an acolyte of Bruckner?!

Or she is very tolerant!   0:)

Question: do you listen with the scores?

I do have a wife and she is an acolyte! One of our first dates was B7 Chailly/RCO at Carnegie, now thirteen years ago!  8)

No, I was on an insanely mindless project for a number of months without meaningful in-person supervision. A scenario that had to be productively exploited.  ;) I did have to do some work at least, so score wasn't possible. Though I do recall that there were some points I later looked up in the scores at home (at least of the three symphonies to which I have the score).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 22, 2013, 11:53:32 AM
Quote from: MishaK on February 22, 2013, 11:41:45 AM
I do have a wife and she is an acolyte! One of our first dates was B7 Chailly/RCO at Carnegie, now thirteen years ago!  8)

Aha!  That explains it!   ;D

Quote from: MishaK on February 22, 2013, 11:41:45 AM
No, I was on an insanely mindless project for a number of months without meaningful in-person supervision. A scenario that had to be productively exploited.  ;) I did have to do some work at least, so score wasn't possible. Though I do recall that there were some points I later looked up in the scores at home (at least of the three symphonies to which I have the score).

Many many moons ago, for c. $5.00 each (to be sure, that was in 1960's dollars!) I bought the entire Leopold Nowak edition of the scores to follow the Jochum/DGG records.

I think they would cost much more these days.   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 22, 2013, 12:43:55 PM
Quote from: MishaK on February 22, 2013, 06:51:54 AM
If you want the Carragan ed. first version of the 2nd, take this:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0083FRA4S.01.L.jpg)
  A.Bruckner
Symphonies 1-3 (Ed. Carragan)
Schuller / PF

Profil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0083FRA4S/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0083FRA4S/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0083FRA4S/goodmusicguide-21)

It's live and it's vastly superior in execution and conception than Tintner (or Young for that matter), plus you get some fine performances of the first version of 1 and the second version of 3 as well.

Ah, yes, Schaller's recordings ARE excellent. Real dark horses.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 22, 2013, 01:04:55 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 22, 2013, 12:43:55 PM
Ah, yes, Schaller's recordings ARE excellent. Real dark horses.

Since you spend a lot of time in the old country... Did you know he's the brother of Rainer Schaller of McFit fame and Love Parade ignominy?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 22, 2013, 01:10:08 PM
Quote from: MishaK on February 22, 2013, 01:04:55 PM
Since you spend a lot of time in the old country... Did you know he's the brother of Rainer Schaller of McFit fame and Love Parade ignominy?
Sure is. Runs in the family.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on February 22, 2013, 05:48:01 PM
Quote from: MishaK on February 22, 2013, 07:55:57 AM
I'm sorry that review bothers you. Sadly, it's spot on. Tintner was only considered a "brilliant Brucknerian" solely by those who fell for the hype at the initial issuance of this overrated Bruckner cycle, which made a splash at the time due to its budget price and coverage of underrecorded first editions. He was outside of the competition for that reason. But now that there is direct competition, that set has not aged well at all for a number of reasons. First and foremost there is the conductor. There is a reason his career always remained in the backwoods. It's not that third rate provincial orchestras with no "Bruckner tradition" can't play Bruckner idiomatically. They can, but it requires a great orchestra builder who knows what he must do on a technical level in order to get a certain sound from an orchestra not used to producing it. And Tintner simply is not a good orchestra builder, and you hear that with all the different ensembles on this cycle: attacks are fuzzy, intonation sometimes sketchy, balances off, dynamic differentiation barely enforced somewhere between mp and ff never mind the more detaild markings in the score, rhythms imprecise. And all this is despite the fact that the recordings seem to have been studio recordings with multiple takes. You can hear the pedantic phrasing and blocky nature of the structure as if the ensemble had been asked to start and stop at every rehearsal number in the score. I could go on. There is simply no excuse for this. But the easiest thing to do is to simply compare how lousy the RSNO sounds with Tintner when put against the same band on the same label with Denève. Different repertpore, I know, so not an exact apples-to-apples comparison, but it doesn't even sound like the same orchestra. The playing is on another level entirely. And I have seen and heard Denève live turn around a provincial orchestra in no time and get them to sound better than they do with other conductors, so, yes, that is a question of skill which Tintner apparently lacked. I didn't buy the hype about the Tintner set when it came out, and I buy it even less so now that there are so many superior alternatives for the early versions available. He simply isn't a good conductor and the Bruckner discography is too vast and rich to waste time on him.

Very interesting MishaK.  If I didn't have my prejudices challenged, music would not be interesting, so I'll look into (or 'listen' into) a few of the things you've mentioned here.  There seems to be some genuine honesty in your argument, which makes me question my own thoughts about the Bruckner interpretations being discussed.   :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 22, 2013, 06:00:33 PM
Quote from: Scots John on February 22, 2013, 05:48:01 PM
Very interesting MishaK.  If I didn't have my prejudices challenged, music would not be interesting, so I'll look into (or 'listen' into) a few of the things you've mentioned here.  There seems to be some genuine honesty in your argument, which makes me question my own thoughts about the Bruckner interpretations being discussed.   :D

Your personal thoughts are always spot on, even if they don't match up with others.  ;)

MishaK has presented us with some great depth to these pieces, I won't be throwing Tintner to the streets anytime soon, but a joy it will be to compare and contrast.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 23, 2013, 05:11:50 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 22, 2013, 09:08:26 AM
I have a real fondness for Tintner's account of the 2nd. It was my intro to that work.

There may be the crucial connection to those two statements.   ;)


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 23, 2013, 05:36:31 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 23, 2013, 05:11:50 AM
There may be the crucial connection to those two statements.   ;)

Nothing quite like your first love, though.


I'm becoming totally enthralled with the 3rd, and all it's editions. Fairly soon it will be my most collected Bruckner symphony, mostly because I'm collecting several recordings of each version. Listening to Inbal's 1873 recording with Frankfurt last night was a highlight. I've heard it before, but after spending time with the later editions, I find myself missing the omissions. I'm trying to convine myself I need a favorite version, is that even necessary?
Title: Re: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on February 23, 2013, 05:41:28 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 23, 2013, 05:36:31 AM
Nothing quite like your first love, though.

As attested by our Gurn and the vintage Ormandy Mendelssohn recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 23, 2013, 05:48:26 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 23, 2013, 05:36:31 AM
Nothing quite like your first love, though.


I'm becoming totally enthralled with the 3rd, and all it's editions. Fairly soon it will be my most collected Bruckner symphony, mostly because I'm collecting several recordings of each version. Listening to Inbal's 1873 recording with Frankfurt last night was a highlight. I've heard it before, but after spending time with the later editions, I find myself missing the omissions. I'm trying to convine myself I need a favorite version, is that even necessary?

All Editions? Wow. Seven variants, by my count: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/09/ionarts-at-large-maazels-inauguration_8.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/09/ionarts-at-large-maazels-inauguration_8.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 23, 2013, 06:00:13 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 23, 2013, 05:48:26 AM
All Editions? Wow. Seven variants, by my count: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/09/ionarts-at-large-maazels-inauguration_8.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/09/ionarts-at-large-maazels-inauguration_8.html)

I was aware of six. But what's one more  ;D.

"The late versions must be considered hatchet jobs; anyone who knows the Original Version cannot possibly stand the later ones." (Eliahu Inbal)

Inbal, what a character.  :D

Thanks for the article, Jens.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on February 23, 2013, 06:12:59 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 23, 2013, 05:11:50 AM
There may be the crucial connection to those two statements.   ;)

Indeed!  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on February 23, 2013, 06:35:15 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518RtT2pKJL._SX300_.jpg)

Listened to Wand's Bruckner 7 this morning (the account shown above).  Wand is more interesting than most it seems, with regard to boisterous and tight phrasing (if thats the right word), and never losing sight of the finish line. As far as I know (or hear) Wand specifically has the credo of a musical piece (or a movement from a piece) being a line of various events, but always with a specific climax that should be moved towards and pointed to. This recording exemplifys that, at the same time often being more contrastful, and fluent in tempo. It is a wonder to behold.

Celibidache, on the other hand, mocked critics who demanded "die große Linie", the grand line, the red thread, the big picture. This was in the 1980s, when he had already begun to slow down significantly. He also said the most important thing he learned from Furtwängler was that the better it sounds, the slower you have to get. I suppose Celibidache, especially with the Munich Philharmonic, was able to produce a sound that was continually getting better and better, so he got slower and slower. But I personally tend to go for the "line" the more I listen to Bruckner. Slowness just puts me to sleep the older I get!

To me, Bruckner is a composer whose very directness and clarity makes me feel very strongly that there is another message, another music between the lines. Bruckner was indeed a direct fellow and he perhaps thought that he meant what he said and vice versa... But already his austere catholicism gives us a hint that "mystery", the things left unsaid, played a large part in his life. Also, he himself said that "My eighth is a mystery." I'm talking about can be purely psychological, philosophical or even just "musical", if one accepts the view that such music-less music can exist.

The simplicity of his musical building blocks also makes one think that there is "something" beyond the blocks themselves (of course the arrangement of the blocks is visibly complicated, but that's another matter). Think of the symbol of the cross itself: just two straight lines, yet there is enormous message behind it. However, I must stress that I'm not just talking about religion here, the "another level" perhaps is better terminology.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2013, 06:49:53 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 23, 2013, 05:48:26 AM
All Editions? Wow. Seven variants, by my count

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 23, 2013, 06:00:13 AM
I was aware of six. But what's one more  ;D.

Eight if you count the latest version, by Celi disciple (and possibly Satan's too  >:D ) Peter Jan Marthé:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2010/Bru3mart.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 23, 2013, 07:14:42 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2013, 06:49:53 AM
Eight if you count the latest version, by Celi disciple (and possibly Satan's too  >:D ) Peter Jan Marthé:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2010/Bru3mart.jpg)


Sarge

The cover art scares me too much.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on February 23, 2013, 07:18:44 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2013, 06:49:53 AM
Eight if you count the latest version, by Celi disciple (and possibly Satan's too  >:D ) Peter Jan Marthé:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2010/Bru3mart.jpg)


Sarge

I don't know what scares me more:  The diabolical photo, or the word "Reloaded".  Reminds me of all the pop songs in the 1990's that were remade as 'Unplugged' versions!  Yuck!  :P
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 23, 2013, 07:20:28 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2013, 06:49:53 AM
Eight if you count the latest version, by Celi disciple (and possibly Satan's too  >:D ) Peter Jan Marthé:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2010/Bru3mart.jpg)


Sarge

What concerns me the most is that he probably believes he's holding a conversation with Bruckner's bust.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 23, 2013, 07:31:16 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 23, 2013, 07:20:28 AM
What concerns me the most is that he probably believes he's holding a conversation with Bruckner's bust.

It's called channeling, Dude!   8)

And...

If you stare at it long enough, you will see that Bruckner is behind Laurence Fishburne!!!

(http://www.counter-currents.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/matrixreloaded.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on February 23, 2013, 07:33:49 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 23, 2013, 07:20:28 AM
What concerns me the most is that he probably believes he's holding a conversation with Bruckner's bust.

Variation on a theme of holding conversations with busts

Many a woman's comment regarding men:

What concerns me the most is that he looks like he's holding a conversation with my bust.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on February 23, 2013, 07:37:55 AM
Memories of Wand's Bruckner 8 in Berlin.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510UlKmT5JL._SY300_.jpg)

The world that is capable can play very-very slow, still maintaining its own energetic references to the whole, spread in time, phrases. You have trumpets, trombones, clarinets, bassoons, tubas and french horns sounds, sounding perfectly and superbly professional; the playing discipline is Zen-like, a nothingness with its own musical greatness.

Wand’s expressionism hits you with his own superiority and subordinates you from your awareness, back to  totally nothing. Bruckner’s eighth is large and powerful, masculine and bold. The Berlin orchestra so great that it itself might be compared to its own greatness, unlike the softer and much more gentle Vienna. Vienna is one of the very few orchestras that can do it with such a charm while observing the music, and the pleasure of Vienna is their ability to create drama or beauty from music awhile the music informs you about nothingness enough to become a self-contained value. The Vienna’s “jointing of the entire symphony” is like the orchestral introduction of the Bruckner 4th, with no sensible efforts or strength to play the music. Like the Rach’s second concerto – a few notes are enough to understand. It might be a very simple phrase but Berlin Bruckner is monumental and controlling. It is Wand’s ability to play along with the rest of orchestra that I think is his own force. you do not own this music; you rather are witnessing the music with Wand.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2013, 07:58:04 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 23, 2013, 07:20:28 AM
What concerns me the most is that he probably believes he's holding a conversation with Bruckner's bust.

You're joking, but...this is from Marthé's liner notes:

"I have created and finished this [new version] with all my energy and power and, in exclusive responsibility to Bruckner, in his spirit and under his command."

Cue the Twilight Zone theme.


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 23, 2013, 09:20:40 AM
So I have Celibidache's 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th on EMI. Should I continue and get the 7th? I love the way Chailly broadly handles the final moments of the finale, possibly my tops for the 7th anyway,  and looking at the times of Celibidache's 7th (14:31 - finale) I believe I would find success here just as well.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 23, 2013, 09:33:14 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2013, 07:58:04 AM
You're joking, but...this is from Marthé's liner notes:

"I have created and finished this [new version] with all my energy and power and, in exclusive responsibility to Bruckner, in his spirit and under his command."

Cue the Twilight Zone theme.


Sarge

Like I said above, "channeling" had to be involved.   8)

Does anybody recall Rosemary Brown?

From Wikipedia:

Quote

(Rosemary Brown) created a small media sensation in the 1970s by presenting works purportedly dictated to her by Franz Liszt, Johannes Brahms, Johann Sebastian Bach, Sergei Rachmaninoff, Franz Schubert, Edvard Grieg, Claude Debussy, Frédéric Chopin, Robert Schumann and Ludwig van Beethoven.

...Brown claimed to have been only seven years old when she was first introduced to the world of dead musicians. She reported that a spirit with long white hair and a flowing black cassock appeared and told her he was a composer and would make her a famous musician one day. Brown did not know who he was until, about ten years later, she saw a picture of Franz Liszt...

Then in 1964 Liszt "renewed contact" and original compositions began flooding in from great musicians of the past. Mrs Brown transcribed pieces from Brahms, Bach, Rachmaninoff, Schubert, Grieg, Debussy, Chopin, Schumann, Beethoven, and Liszt himself. These included a 40-page Schubert sonata, a Fantaisie-Impromptu in three movements by Chopin, 12 songs by Schubert, and two sonatas by Beethoven as well as his 10th and 11th Symphonies, both unfinished.

Brown claimed that each composer had his own way of dictating to her. Liszt controlled her hands for a few bars at a time, and then she wrote down the notes. Others, like Chopin, told her the notes and pushed her hands on to the right keys. Schubert tried to sing his compositions to her "but he hasn't got a very good voice". Beethoven and Bach simply dictated the notes — a method she said she disliked since she had no idea what the finished product would sound like. All of these composers spoke to her in English. Brown stated this did not surprise her: "Why shouldn't they go on learning on the other side?"[citation needed]

A recording titled The Rosemary Brown Piano Album presents performances of some of the music Brown transcribed. She published a number of books, including Unfinished Symphonies: Voices from the Beyond.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Brown_%28spiritualist%29
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on February 23, 2013, 09:50:35 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 23, 2013, 09:33:14 AM
Like I said above, "channeling" had to be involved.   8)
Does anybody recall Rosemary Brown?
From Wikipedia:
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Brown_%28spiritualist%29

9 minutes into this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcraiFro0x8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcraiFro0x8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 24, 2013, 08:19:25 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 20, 2013, 07:55:36 PM
I just realized I have Kubelik's studio 3rd! I'd totally forgotten I had it - it was a gift from a friend.

I'll give that one listen MI and report back. :)

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 20, 2013, 07:59:31 PM
I love his live 3rd, so I'll be interested in hearing your opinion, DD.

[Moving this here from the Favorite Bruckner Conductor poll].

MI, I got around to Kubelik's studio 3rd tonight and I have to say that overall this is an extremely fine performance. I felt perhaps the first movement could've used just a bit more thrust but honestly I'm not sure this is my favorite Bruckner movement anyway.

Once past the first movement though the urgency kicks up a notch or two and I really enjoyed the added warmth in Kubelik's approach. It's this warmth that ultimately wins the day for me and pushes this 3rd into high recommendation territory. 

Not sure how this one compares to his live 3rd, though. It'd be interesting to hear how he handles the first movement live and if it comes up with extra umph.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on February 24, 2013, 08:22:10 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 24, 2013, 08:19:25 PM
[Moving this here from the Favorite Bruckner Conductor poll].

MI, I got around to Kubelik's studio 3rd tonight and I have to say that overall this is an extremely fine performance. I felt perhaps the first movement could've used just a bit more thrust but honestly I'm not sure this is my favorite Bruckner movement anyway.

Once past the first movement though the urgency kicks up a notch or two and I really enjoyed the added warmth in Kubelik's approach. It's this warmth that ultimately wins the day for me and pushes this 3rd into high recommendation territory. 

Not sure how this one compares to his live 3rd, though. I'd be interesting to hear how he handles the first movement live and if it comes up with extra umph.

Excellent, thanks DD. I might have to pick this one up at some juncture. I love his live 3rd on Audite. What an awesome performance. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 24, 2013, 08:29:35 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 24, 2013, 08:22:10 PM
Excellent, thanks DD. I might have to pick this one up at some juncture. I love his live 3rd on Audite. What an awesome performance. :)

Knowing that you're picky about sound, MI, what's your opinion of the sonics on the Audite?



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on February 24, 2013, 08:47:41 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 24, 2013, 08:29:35 PM
Knowing that you're picky about sound, MI, what's your opinion of the sonics on the Audite?

I give it a thumbs up, DD! Sounds great to me and given it was a live recording I was kind of worried, but that worry quickly subsided once the first crescendo happened.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on February 25, 2013, 04:35:48 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2013, 06:49:53 AM
Eight if you count the latest version, by Celi disciple (and possibly Satan's too  >:D ) Peter Jan Marthé:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2010/Bru3mart.jpg)


Sarge

This ain't your grandfather's Abbey!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 25, 2013, 04:51:10 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 23, 2013, 09:20:40 AM
So I have Celibidache's 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th on EMI. Should I continue and get the 7th? I love the way Chailly broadly handles the final moments of the finale, possibly my tops for the 7th anyway,  and looking at the times of Celibidache's 7th (14:31 - finale) I believe I would find success here just as well.

Oh, why not. :-) In any case: after your traversal so far, and presumably positive experiences, would you let a so-so statement on our part really keep you from adding 7-9?

As an inveterate lover of Celi 3, 5, and 6, though, I must say that there are other 7th (and a good number of them) that do a good deal more for me. Chailly included.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 25, 2013, 05:15:33 AM
I first became acquainted with the name Celibidache through a chance meeting in Germany 20 years ago or so with a gaggle of 50-something Celibidache groupies, who extolled his every movement on the podium, praised his whole bearing and every concert he conducted as "echt himmlisch".  0:) 

Some of these good ladies acted as if they might have even had a certain physiological reaction during his concerts, so exorbitant was their praise.  And they were taking a one-way 2-hour train trip to the concert!

But that's a groupie behavior!
Title: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 26, 2013, 09:47:03 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51u2TTPJtlL._SY350_.jpg)


Just arrived today, will get a chance later to spin it. But read the booklet with a very informative write up on the 3rd by Stephen Johnson. I took pics of it to share (how clever I am).
He reveals there are a possible 9 versions of the symphony, and is in-depth with the Wagner inspirations of the piece. Also discusses non-Wagner influences of the 3rd, such as Bruckner's own mother.


Ok, here is the link (http://gregscottmoeller.wordpress.com/) to my blog where I've uploaded the booklet pics.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 26, 2013, 12:18:30 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 26, 2013, 09:47:03 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51u2TTPJtlL._SY350_.jpg)


Just arrived today, will get a chance later to spin it. But read the booklet with a very informative write up on the 3rd by Stephen Johnson. I took pics of it to share (how clever I am).
He reveals there are a possible 9 versions of the symphony, and is in-depth with the Wagner inspirations of the piece. Also discusses non-Wagner influences of the 3rd, such as Bruckner's own mother.


Ok, here is the link (http://gregscottmoeller.wordpress.com/) to my blog where I've uploaded the booklet pics.

Didn't know this existed! Vanskä did a really interesting and unique 4 with Minnesota.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: trung224 on February 26, 2013, 03:25:00 PM
Quote from: MishaK on February 26, 2013, 12:18:30 PM
Didn't know this existed! Vanskä did a really interesting and unique 4 with Minnesota.
I have the Vanska's Bruckner 4 but I don't find it unique, because Vanska didn't do anything outside the score. The only unique thing is the new Korstvedt's edition, though in my knowledge, it is almost identical with the Gutman's edition, which older Brucknerian like Knappertsbusch, Furtwängler, Matacic used in the past.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 27, 2013, 08:03:58 AM
Quote from: trung224 on February 26, 2013, 03:25:00 PM
    I have the Vanska's Bruckner 4 but I don't find it unique, because Vanska didn't do anything outside the score.

Depends what you mean by "outside the score". I personally don't think you need to go outside the score at all to have a wide variety of interpretations. It's been a while, but as I recall, Vänskä had quite unusual textures, not like anyone else's B4. Certainly not conventional.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on March 01, 2013, 05:08:12 PM
Wand's Berlin Phil. Bruckner 5 (RCA) is really getting to me, I listened to it all day yesterday (somehow)  8)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on March 01, 2013, 05:25:05 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on March 01, 2013, 05:08:12 PM
Wand's Berlin Phil. Bruckner 5 (RCA) is really getting to me, I listened to it all day yesterday (somehow)  8)

I think this is listed as a symptom of something or other in the DSM.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 13, 2013, 07:51:39 PM
After some intense exploration of Bruckner's symphonies, I feel that I have compiled a solid list of my top choices for recordings. I will exclude his first three (F minor, D minor "Die Nullte" and No. 1) as I have only heard two-three recordings of each and don't believe I have enough of a variety to decide.

Symphony no 2 in C minor:
Tintner/Ireland National So (1872 version) - Besides the first three, this is another that I still need a little more time with, but have heard Karajan, Chailly, Young, Inbal, Venzago (which I enjoyed) and finally the Tintner. I definitely prefer the original version, mostly for placing the Adagio third (there is such a nice seque formed with this switch of the movements) and also prefer using the horn in the final bars of the Adagio as opposed to the clarinet, it is purely a personal choice. Tintner's overall statement is a long one, but never feels sluggish, and I feel this symphony has a nice pastoral feel to it (mainly the third and final movements which is another reason why I think they work well together) and the Ireland National S.O. offer a smooth quality in their tone that compliment this, but they can also turn on the fire when needed.
Symphony no 3 in D minor
Inbal/Franfurt Radio SO (1873 version)
Solti/Chicago S.O. (1877 Nowak)
Vanska/BBC Scottish S.O. (1877, with 1876 Adagio)
- This was the toughest lot to choose, there are so many different versions of the 3rd to pick from, and they are all good. This is the symphony that I really enjoyed exploring the most, there is so much greatness to the 3rd that I was unaware of. The Solti has been with me for decades now, still remains a favorite, very polished. The Vanska performance is the most unique, a perfect flow throughout the four movements, plus I like how he really brings out a nice dance feel in the finale.
Symphony no 4 in E flat major "Romantic"
Nagano/Bavarian State Opera Orchestra (1874 version)
Dohnanyi/Cleveland O. (1881 Haas)
Venzago/Basel Symphony Orchestra (1886 Nowak)
- I have always wanted my "Romantic" recordings to head towards the swifter side rather than broader. Also with a leaner-toned atmosphere, which I feel Dohnanyi and Cleveland accomplish in spades. The Nagano is the first performance to convince me that the original 4th is worthy of recognition. But the Venzago is the most perfect rendition of this lovely work I've encountered. At times sounds more classical than romantic in its approach, but that never diminishes it's beauty.
Symphony no 5 in B flat major
Chailly/Royal Concertgebouw (1875 Haas)
Celibidache/Munich Philharmonic Orchestra (1875)
- For a long time I would regard No. 5 as the best of Bruckner. To me, it's his most majestic, it travels the universe and back. And Chailly and Celibidache achieve this more than any other.
Symphony no 6 in A major
Eschenbach/Houston or London Phil (1881)
Dohnanyi/Cleveland O. (1881)
Norrington/Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra (1881)
- Along with the 3rd, I found immense pleasure in becoming re-acquainted with the 6th. I still believe it contains the greatest moment of Bruckner's compositional career within the closing minutes of the opening Maestoso. These three (or four) choices couldn't be any more different. Eschenbach is great with both Houston or London Phil, but my purpose for choosing both is for his interpretation of the 6th, which both groups convey. Eschenbach takes many liberties with this music, stretching out key phrases and themes, and giving the 6th an overall grandiose feel. Dohnanyi and Cleveland are clean, crisp and perfectly balanced. And look, it's everyone's favorite crazy Uncle Roger. I'm a paying member of the Norrington fan club, but find this to be his  only success of his Bruckner series. Norrington zips through this piece, especially the finale, (12:39 compared to Dohnanyi 14:47, Eschenbach LPO 15:27) but he keeps it together and strongly convinces with his tempi. And kudos to the Stuttgart players, they keep up without ever missing a beat, literally  ;D and it's a live performance!
Symphony no 7 in E major
Chailly/Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra (1885 Nowak)
Herreweghe/Champs-Élysées Orchestra (1885)
- Chailly is simply the best when it comes to the 7th. Not sure if Herreweghe's take would work on any other of Bruckner's symphonies (haven't heard the 4th or 5th from these forces) but it works here. It's light, and very lyrical. That's not a pun.
Symphony no 8 in C minor
Wand/Berlin Phil - I for one never got much from the 8th other than a long, brass-heavy filled finale with a kick-ass coda. Wand's live recording with Berlin is the first to convince me otherwise, that there are three other phenomanal movements, that together make for one long, brass-heavy filled 80 minutes...with a kick-ass coda. Brilliant stuff right here.
Symphony no 9 in D minor
Barenboim/Berlin Phil
Harnoncourt/Vienna Phil
- Two very distinct performances. Barenboim is a bit more bleak whereas Harnoncourt offers a little more hope in the end.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Octave on March 13, 2013, 08:46:10 PM
Man, you know I love me some lists.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 13, 2013, 08:51:53 PM
Quote from: Octave on March 13, 2013, 08:46:10 PM
Man, you know I love me some lists.

Ha! Me too. In fact that's why in the past I've asked users here to list certain things, such as Favorite Bruckner recordings, because it gives me a chance to get familiar with new recordings.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Octave on March 13, 2013, 08:55:58 PM
For those new to this thread, there are at least one or two tidy and extensive lists of top favorites in the "favorite Bruckner interpreter" poll/thread over in the General--->Polling Station subforum.  A long one by Sarge with at least a few choices for each symphony was the one I remember best.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on March 13, 2013, 09:02:11 PM
Anton help us!  So many of those recordings I don't have.

I disagree with you about Tintner--Karajan der Man there for me.  I've got none of your choices for 3, only one for 4 (Nagano), one with an asterisk for 5 (Celi--asterisk because it's in the not yet listened to pile),  one for 6 (Norrington), one for Seven (Herreweghe, about whom I agree with you), and none of your choices for 8 or 9.  And, truth to tell, of the recordings I do have,  I'm not sure whom I would pick for any of those (except Karajan in 1-3)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 13, 2013, 09:13:31 PM
Quote from: Octave on March 13, 2013, 08:55:58 PM
For those new to this thread, there are at least one or two tidy and extensive lists of top favorites in the "favorite Bruckner interpreter" poll/thread over in the General--->Polling Station subforum.  A long one by Sarge with at least a few choices for each symphony was the one I remember most.

Hey, just remembered I started that "favorite interpreter" thread, I should move it there. I wouldn't want to insult myself.


Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 13, 2013, 09:02:11 PM
Anton help us!  So many of those recordings I don't have.

I disagree with you about Tintner--Karajan der Man there for me.  I've got none of your choices for 3, only one for 4 (Nagano), one with an asterisk for 5 (Celi--asterisk because it's in the not yet listened to pile),  one for 6 (Norrington), one for Seven (Herreweghe, about whom I agree with you), and none of your choices for 8 or 9.  And, truth to tell, of the recordings I do have,  I'm not sure whom I would pick for any of those (except Karajan in 1-3)

Hey there, Jeffrey.
Karajan is very good with the 2nd, and my main reason for picking Tintner is because of the version he performs. I should have added another recording there as I did for the 3rd and 4th to cover multiple versions.

Also, have you heard other of Celibidache's discs? I'm very torn with him, love his 5th and 6th, not so much with the 4th, and the 3rd hasn't made much of an impression yet. I think it boils down to which symphonies I feel benefit from Celibidache's slower approach.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Octave on March 13, 2013, 09:23:57 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 13, 2013, 09:13:31 PM
Hey, just remembered I started that "favorite interpreter" thread, I should move it there. I wouldn't want to insult myself.

I do think this thread (the Abbey) is the best place for such lists, "for posterity", such as it is; I tentatively suggested that those nice lists (which do require a certain amount of time and care and trouble, not to mention all the prior listening and expenditure) be mirrored/crossposted to this (Abbey) thread, but I didn't want to be bossy about it....I just thought it would make them more visible and accessible.  I guess I don't care where the lists end up as long as they're made: even provisional personal preferences are a valuable way for me to prioritize my purchases.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on March 13, 2013, 09:48:22 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 13, 2013, 07:51:39 PM
Symphony no 4 in E flat major "Romantic"
[...]
I have always wanted my "Romantic" recordings to head towards the swifter side rather than broader. Also with a leaner-toned atmosphere,

You might want to investigate one of the Klemperer recordings on EMI, a studio recording with the Philharmonia and a live recording with the Bavarian RSO.  Both in good stereo.

[asin]B00000AF4S[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 14, 2013, 03:26:51 AM
Quote from: Daverz on March 13, 2013, 09:48:22 PM
You might want to investigate one of the Klemperer recordings on EMI, a studio recording with the Philharmonia and a live recording with the Bavarian RSO.  Both in good stereo.

[asin]B00000AF4S[/asin]

Thanks for the recommendation, Daverz. Despite feeling confident with my list I am aware there are still many recordings I have not heard, Klemperer's 6th is as far as I made it with him.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on March 14, 2013, 04:06:28 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 13, 2013, 07:51:39 PM
After some intense exploration of Bruckner's symphonies, I feel that I have compiled a solid list of my top choices for recordings. I will exclude his first three (F minor, D minor "Die Nullte" and No. 1) as I have only heard two-three recordings of each and don't believe I have enough of a variety to decide.

Symphony no 2 in C minor:
Tintner/Ireland National So (1872 version) - Besides the first three, this is another that I still need a little more time with, but have heard Karajan, Chailly, Young, Inbal, Venzago (which I enjoyed) and finally the Tintner. I definitely prefer the original version, mostly for placing the Adagio third (there is such a nice seque formed with this switch of the movements) and also prefer using the horn in the final bars of the Adagio as opposed to the clarinet, it is purely a personal choice. Tintner's overall statement is a long one, but never feels sluggish, and I feel this symphony has a nice pastoral feel to it (mainly the third and final movements which is another reason why I think they work well together) and the Ireland National S.O. offer a smooth quality in their tone that compliment this, but they can also turn on the fire when needed.
Symphony no 3 in D minor
Inbal/Franfurt Radio SO (1873 version)
Solti/Chicago S.O. (1877 Nowak)
Vanska/BBC Scottish S.O. (1877, with 1876 Adagio)
- This was the toughest lot to choose, there are so many different versions of the 3rd to pick from, and they are all good. This is the symphony that I really enjoyed exploring the most, there is so much greatness to the 3rd that I was unaware of. The Solti has been with me for decades now, still remains a favorite, very polished. The Vanska performance is the most unique, a perfect flow throughout the four movements, plus I like how he really brings out a nice dance feel in the finale.
Symphony no 4 in E flat major "Romantic"
Nagano/Bavarian State Opera Orchestra (1874 version)
Dohnanyi/Cleveland O. (1881 Haas)
Venzago/Basel Symphony Orchestra (1886 Nowak)
- I have always wanted my "Romantic" recordings to head towards the swifter side rather than broader. Also with a leaner-toned atmosphere, which I feel Dohnanyi and Cleveland accomplish in spades. The Nagano is the first performance to convince me that the original 4th is worthy of recognition. But the Venzago is the most perfect rendition of this lovely work I've encountered. At times sounds more classical than romantic in its approach, but that never diminishes it's beauty.
Symphony no 5 in B flat major
Chailly/Royal Concertgebouw (1875 Haas)
Celibidache/Munich Philharmonic Orchestra (1875)
- For a long time I would regard No. 5 as the best of Bruckner. To me, it's his most majestic, it travels the universe and back. And Chailly and Celibidache achieve this more than any other.
Symphony no 6 in A major
Eschenbach/Houston or London Phil (1881)
Dohnanyi/Cleveland O. (1881)
Norrington/Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra (1881)
- Along with the 3rd, I found immense pleasure in becoming re-acquainted with the 6th. I still believe it contains the greatest moment of Bruckner's compositional career within the closing minutes of the opening Maestoso. These three (or four) choices couldn't be any more different. Eschenbach is great with both Houston or London Phil, but my purpose for choosing both is for his interpretation of the 6th, which both groups convey. Eschenbach takes many liberties with this music, stretching out key phrases and themes, and giving the 6th an overall grandiose feel. Dohnanyi and Cleveland are clean, crisp and perfectly balanced. And look, it's everyone's favorite crazy Uncle Roger. I'm a paying member of the Norrington fan club, but find this to be his  only success of his Bruckner series. Norrington zips through this piece, especially the finale, (12:39 compared to Dohnanyi 14:47, Eschenbach LPO 15:27) but he keeps it together and strongly convinces with his tempi. And kudos to the Stuttgart players, they keep up without ever missing a beat, literally  ;D and it's a live performance!
Symphony no 7 in E major
Chailly/Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra (1885 Nowak)
Herreweghe/Champs-Élysées Orchestra (1885)
- Chailly is simply the best when it comes to the 7th. Not sure if Herreweghe's take would work on any other of Bruckner's symphonies (haven't heard the 4th or 5th from these forces) but it works here. It's light, and very lyrical. That's not a pun.
Symphony no 8 in C minor
Wand/Berlin Phil - I for one never got much from the 8th other than a long, brass-heavy filled finale with a kick-ass coda. Wand's live recording with Berlin is the first to convince me otherwise, that there are three other phenomanal movements, that together make for one long, brass-heavy filled 80 minutes...with a kick-ass coda. Brilliant stuff right here.
Symphony no 9 in D minor
Barenboim/Berlin Phil
Harnoncourt/Vienna Phil
- Two very distinct performances. Barenboim is a bit more bleak whereas Harnoncourt offers a little more hope in the end.

Thank you for so thoughtfully annotated a list, a delight to read this cool Thursday morning!

And you remind me that I've not yet listened to the Wand/Berliner Philharmoniker disc . . . if this were the Piston thread, and you were snypsss. I'd be toast . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 14, 2013, 06:54:10 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 13, 2013, 07:51:39 PM

Symphony no 8 in C minor
Wand/Berlin Phil - I for one never got much from the 8th other than a long, brass-heavy filled finale with a kick-ass coda. Wand's live recording with Berlin is the first to convince me otherwise, that there are three other phenomanal movements, that together make for one long, brass-heavy filled 80 minutes...with a kick-ass coda. Brilliant stuff right here.


Not that anyone has been waiting for me to say so, but the last two pages of that score are among the most amazing two pages of music ever composed.

And please, everyone: do NOT start a poll about "Your Top Ten Works Whose Last Two Pages Are Among the Most Amazing Ever Composed" !   :laugh:
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on March 14, 2013, 08:27:59 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 13, 2013, 09:13:31 PM


Hey there, Jeffrey.
Karajan is very good with the 2nd, and my main reason for picking Tintner is because of the version he performs. I should have added another recording there as I did for the 3rd and 4th to cover multiple versions.

Also, have you heard other of Celibidache's discs? I'm very torn with him, love his 5th and 6th, not so much with the 4th, and the 3rd hasn't made much of an impression yet. I think it boils down to which symphonies I feel benefit from Celibidache's slower approach.

To be perfectly honest,  Tintner totally bored me in 1-3.   That's why I never tried to get his recordings of the other symphonies.

The whole Celibidache box set awaits a first listen.  I simply pointed to the Fifth because you had mentioned it so specifically.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on March 15, 2013, 03:11:19 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 14, 2013, 08:27:59 PM
To be perfectly honest,  Tintner totally bored me in 1-3.   That's why I never tried to get his recordings of the other symphonies.


Similar experience with hearing Tintner's 5th.  It bored me, and having explored Tintner's Bruckner further.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 15, 2013, 03:18:00 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 14, 2013, 08:27:59 PM
To be perfectly honest,  Tintner totally bored me in 1-3.   That's why I never tried to get his recordings of the other symphonies.


Quote from: ChamberNut on March 15, 2013, 03:11:19 AM
Similar experience with hearing Tintner's 5th.  It bored me, and having explored Tintner's Bruckner further.

I like Tintner's 2nd and 3rd, but was unimpressed with 6th and 7th, those are the only ones of his I've heard.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Octave on March 16, 2013, 11:06:58 PM
Kind of a redundant "recordings-I-am-considering" question, but I thought it might be better here than in that general thread.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qATOM7H7L.jpg)
Bruckner by Inbal
I was planning on getting a couple of his "original version" recordings, of #3 and 4; but then I saw this box and wondered about it as a whole.  I've searched the Bruckner composer thread and found only some passing comments, and I wonder if the greater availability performances of these versions since the 80s makes this cycle not as desirable.

I am planning on getting the Skrowaczewski cycle in the near future, but for the moment I am tempted by either the Inbal or the Chailly cycle as an addition to my library; most of the comments I've heard about their traversals have been piecemeal, with strong praise for a symphony or two but no comment on the overall quality.  I think MI still favors Chailly's whole cycle, among a few others.  But there is also the option to pass on both of them!   8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on March 18, 2013, 06:46:28 AM
I listened to the entire Inbal cycle on Spotify a while back (in high quality sound of course) and have heard him do no.9 in person (with WDR SO). His takes on the early symphonies are very special. Inbal's 0 and his recordings of the first versions of 3 and 4 belong in every collection and in terms of sheer conviction of the interpretation, passion and spontaneity of the performance and faith in these early versions as masterpieces in themselves, these performances are far superior to any more recent recordings by the likes of Young, Tintner, Davies, Nagano. That said, I don't think you really need to own the entire cycle (especially if you're also considering acquiring Skro and Chailly). Inbal's 3 and 4 at least can be had on very inexpensive Warner single issues and some of the others can be found used. The rest of the cycle (like the 9 that I heard live) is simply very very good without being truly exceptional in a crowded field. You could perfecly enjoy these recordings for a while on their own merits. But if you own multiple cycles, I doubt you would be returning to Inbal's 5-9 very often the way you would with the sweeping performances of Chailly who has much better orchestras at his disposal, or the superdetailed performances of Skro that yield new discoveries on every new listening.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 18, 2013, 01:19:14 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 13, 2013, 07:51:39 PM
Symphony no 6 in A major
Eschenbach/Houston or London Phil (1881)
Dohnanyi/Cleveland O. (1881)
Norrington/Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra (1881)
- Along with the 3rd, I found immense pleasure in becoming re-acquainted with the 6th. I still believe it contains the greatest moment of Bruckner's compositional career within the closing minutes of the opening Maestoso. These three (or four) choices couldn't be any more different. Eschenbach is great with both Houston or London Phil, but my purpose for choosing both is for his interpretation of the 6th, which both groups convey. Eschenbach takes many liberties with this music, stretching out key phrases and themes, and giving the 6th an overall grandiose feel. Dohnanyi and Cleveland are clean, crisp and perfectly balanced. And look, it's everyone's favorite crazy Uncle Roger. I'm a paying member of the Norrington fan club, but find this to be his  only success of his Bruckner series. Norrington zips through this piece, especially the finale, (12:39 compared to Dohnanyi 14:47, Eschenbach LPO 15:27) but he keeps it together and strongly convinces with his tempi. And kudos to the Stuttgart players, they keep up without ever missing a beat, literally  ;D and it's a live performance!

I'm gonna have to throw two more into the mix, Blomstedt/SFS and Barenboim/BPO. I'm starting to realize that the 6th might be my overall favorite from Anton, or at least it's been the one I've listened to the most the past month. Blomstedt/SFS is similar in style to Dohnanyi, SFS sounds a bit bolder and the horns are slightly more prominent which is beneficial when the horns and trumpets/trombones play off each other. The Barenboim/BPO 6th is a beast, just like their other Teldec Bruckner recordings, heavy in tone and quite hasty but never dull.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on March 18, 2013, 01:28:20 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 18, 2013, 01:19:14 PM
I'm gonna have to throw two more into the mix, Blomstedt/SFS and Barenboim/BPO. I'm starting to realize that the 6th might be my overall favorite from Anton, or at least it's been the one I've listened to the most the past month. Blomstedt/SFS is similar in style to Dohnanyi, SFS sounds a bit bolder and the horns are slightly more prominent which is beneficial when the horns and trumpets/trombones play off each other. The Barenboim/BPO 6th is a beast, just like their other Teldec Bruckner recordings, heavy in tone and quite hasty but never dull.

You should also throw in Skrowaczewski, the earlier Barenboim/CSO and (surprise!) Muti/BPO. A few other worthy 6ths to consider.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 18, 2013, 01:30:10 PM
Quote from: MishaK on March 18, 2013, 01:28:20 PM
You should also throw in Skrowaczewski, the earlier Barenboim/CSO and (surprise!) Muti/BPO. A few other worthy 6ths to consider.

Three I have yet to hear, but on my to-do list now.
Thanks, MishaK.  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 18, 2013, 04:58:07 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41rPv6acbRL._SX350_.jpg)


Would also like to give a little attention to Nagano's 6th. Could use a little more muscle, but the melodies truly sing and Nagano does offer a unique taste of Bruckner's music without disrespecting.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Octave on March 18, 2013, 05:09:20 PM
Thanks for your help, MishaK!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 22, 2013, 04:51:47 PM
Quote from: MishaK on February 22, 2013, 10:09:35 AM
I highly recommend you take a very good listen to Skrowaczewski's cycle. You will not only hear cartloads of detail you never knew existed....you will also hear how those details fit in with an organic whole that isn't pasted together from blocks. Also, you will hear a true master conductor whip a nominally third rate orchestra into orchestral performances that need not fear comparison with Berlin or Amsterdam. It's simply musicianship on a different level.

+1 Just heard Skrowaczewski's 5th on Spotify. Phenomenal.
And MishaK is right. For example, the finale's coda sounded completely fresh with Skrowaczewski's special detailing (wait, there are woodwinds playing in the coda?  ;) ) Quickly purchased a hard copy for my library. The other 5ths on my shelf will have to make room for this one, Skrowaczewski is joining with a bold statement.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bhVnp0vWL._SX300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on March 25, 2013, 06:01:53 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 22, 2013, 04:51:47 PM
(wait, there are woodwinds playing in the coda?  ;) )

Exactly! I keep having experiences like that with Skro. Wonderful, isn't it?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 27, 2013, 12:47:37 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 22, 2013, 04:51:47 PM
+1 Just heard Skrowaczewski's 5th on Spotify. Phenomenal.
And MishaK is right. For example, the finale's coda sounded completely fresh with Skrowaczewski's special detailing (wait, there are woodwinds playing in the coda?  ;) ) Quickly purchased a hard copy for my library. The other 5ths on my shelf will have to make room for this one, Skrowaczewski is joining with a bold statement.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bhVnp0vWL._SX200_.jpg)

Quote from: MishaK on March 25, 2013, 06:01:53 AM
Exactly! I keep having experiences like that with Skro. Wonderful, isn't it?


I know The Hurwitzer is a subject of controversy sometimes here at GMG, but i enjoy many of his reviews, and just read this after I praised Skrowaczewski's 5th...

"Perhaps the clearest example of this occurs in the finale of the Fifth Symphony, where in addition to a central fugue of exceptional sharpness and linear drive, Skroweczewski isn't afraid in the final chorale to take the horns up an octave, or to make a dramatic diminuendo at the very end so that the ascending line in the flutes and violins is clearly audible. The result, because of his steady tempos and directional focus, never sounds fussy or mannered. On the contrary, it's thrilling, and this account of the Fifth's last movement is one of the very few that achieves a feeling of finality right at the very last chord rather than pages before."  - David Hurwitzer
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on March 27, 2013, 03:55:35 AM
The Hurwitzer is of greater interest (IMO) when he speaks well of a recording.  I've found him an untrustworthy whinger, when it's a matter of his distaste for a recording. FWIW . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 27, 2013, 03:58:44 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 27, 2013, 03:55:35 AM
The Hurwitzer is of greater interest (IMO) when he speaks well of a recording.  I've found him an untrustworthy whinger, when it's a matter of his distaste for a recording. FWIW . . . .

Very true, his negative comments seem more along the lines of personal distaste than technical. Which is not to say that a reviewer can't include his personal taste, but (I would like to see them) back it up with more.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 29, 2013, 05:18:47 PM
I recently introduced a grade-school acquaintance to Bruckner's Seventh Symphony:

QuoteI wanted to tell you that I listened to the first half of Bruckner's 7th Symphony.  My, that is a powerful collection!  I was baking while I listened to it.  Just when you think it is getting quiet, it "jumps"out at you!  I can see why you like Bruckner's music.  Thank you for sharing it with me.  And I will listen to the rest of the cd hopefully sometime soon.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Octave on March 29, 2013, 05:29:25 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 29, 2013, 05:18:47 PM
I recently introduced a grade-school acquaintance to Bruckner's Seventh Symphony:

That is so great.  I envy that kid!  BTW, does 'baking' mean something different to kids nowadays than it meant to kids of my generation and probably the generation before that, and before that?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 29, 2013, 05:34:55 PM
Quote from: Octave on March 29, 2013, 05:29:25 PM
That is so great.  I envy that kid!  BTW, does 'baking' mean something different to kids nowadays than it meant to kids of my generation and probably the generation before that, and before that?

0:)  No, the grade-school acquaintance is now a grandmother!  Not an acquaintance from my present grade school, but from c. 55 years ago!  I should have made that clear!

So "baking" is baking, as in cookies!  Those curious brownies one hears about would not be involved!   0:)

We welcome all to Bruckner, no matter how late in life it may be!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Octave on March 29, 2013, 05:36:47 PM
Jeje, sorry, I'm so lumpen.   8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Beorn on March 29, 2013, 05:36:49 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 29, 2013, 05:34:55 PM
So "baking" is baking, as in cookies!  Those curious brownies one hears about would not be involved!   0:)

(http://www.allmystery.de/i/t15ffa2_cat-dude_wait_what.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 05, 2013, 06:43:50 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0003/535/MI0003535538.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Any known sites that have some samples? I'm a huge fan of Venzago's disc of the 4th and 7th, and would love to hear his take on the 3rd and 6th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Papy Oli on May 06, 2013, 02:47:24 AM
There are samples of 4 of the tracks at JPC :

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Anton-Bruckner-1824-1896-Symphonien-Nr-3-6/hnum/4947233 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Anton-Bruckner-1824-1896-Symphonien-Nr-3-6/hnum/4947233)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 06, 2013, 03:04:46 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on May 06, 2013, 02:47:24 AM
There are samples of 4 of the tracks at JPC :

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Anton-Bruckner-1824-1896-Symphonien-Nr-3-6/hnum/4947233 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Anton-Bruckner-1824-1896-Symphonien-Nr-3-6/hnum/4947233)

You da man, Papy!  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on May 15, 2013, 07:04:56 AM
Sarge, any thoughts yet on "the Cincinnati Sixth"?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2013, 07:07:30 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 15, 2013, 07:04:56 AM
Sarge, any thoughts yet on "the Cincinnati Sixth"?

Haven't heard it yet. Haven't been in a Bruckner mood. But I feel one coming on  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 16, 2013, 07:35:31 AM
GMG members know that I am very partial to the Nowak edition of the symphonies, especially as performed by Eugen Jochum and Company on DGG.

But I have listened to the Originalfassung (or at least William Carragan's version of it) many times now, and it is a wonderful ride!

The few revisions which I prefer from the Nowak version are outweighed by the great stuff missing in it.

And this is a wonderful performance:

[asin]B0000060D5[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on May 16, 2013, 08:46:29 AM
If the original 2 ed. Carragan you want, try this one:

[asin]B0083FRA4S[/asin]

Much better performance, IMHO.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 16, 2013, 10:01:34 AM
Quote from: MishaK on May 16, 2013, 08:46:29 AM
If the original 2 ed. Carragan you want, try this one:

[asin]B0083FRA4S[/asin]

Much better performance, IMHO.

Okay, sounds interesting, especially with all 3 Carragan editions being performed.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on May 16, 2013, 01:52:57 PM
Misha, thank you for that tip. I've ordered it and wishlisted the companion 4/7/9

Now I can give my Tintner recordings of 1-3 to the library without feeling guilty. >:D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Octave on June 24, 2013, 11:16:08 PM
Mike-Knight once recommended some of Matthew Best's sacred Bruckner:
Quote from: knight66 on December 15, 2007, 11:38:17 PM
[...]The Bruckner Mass in F minor is very beautiful and dramatic, in parts it is like one of his symphonies set to voices. There are some very beautiful vocal lines and it is a passionate piece. The Corydon Singers version under Matthew Best is excellent. Here is a link with some samples.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bruckner-Sacred-Choral-Works-Anton/dp/B000002ZRG/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1197794197&sr=1-6

How are Matthew Best's other Bruckner sacred music recordings?  There is a 3cd which includes all three masses, TE DEUM, and some smaller pieces.  I did a bit of searching in the forum but did not turn up other opinions.

I only know the DG recordings by Jochum and Celibidache's Mass #3 (Munich/EMI), both of which I found magisterial.  (FYI: I bought a used copy of the old DG 4cd of the Jochum instead of the two 'Originals' 2cd reissues, simply because I heard a couple reports that the 'Originals' reissues were very badly remastered.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 24, 2013, 11:28:55 PM
Quote from: Octave on June 24, 2013, 11:16:08 PM
Mike-Knight once recommended some of Matthew Best's sacred Bruckner:
How are Matthew Best's other Bruckner sacred music recordings?  There is a 3cd which includes all three masses, TE DEUM, and some smaller pieces.  I did a bit of searching in the forum but did not turn up other opinions.

THey are exellent! I bought them in their original incarnation and have listened to them regularly for years now. Hyperion give a couple minutes of testing time, so you can give a listen to see what you think. Alas, I cannot compare, as I enjoyed these enough that I never felt the need to try others.

Here is a review of one of them: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Nov11/Bruckner_Mass_CDH55332.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Nov11/Bruckner_Mass_CDH55332.htm)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on June 25, 2013, 04:42:21 AM
Mm, that must be nice, indeed.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on June 25, 2013, 05:40:19 AM
Because I obviously was lacking in Bruckner, this new addition to the roster:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/A1johNl-LnL._SL1500_.jpg)
  Toni Bruckner
Symphony No.6
+ Bach/Webern ricerare
C.v.Dohnanyi / Cleveland Orchestra
CPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000004208/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000004208/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000004208/goodmusicguideuk-21)

(Not only got it for the Bach-Webern... but that was a big fat attractive bonus!)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 25, 2013, 05:45:15 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 16, 2013, 01:52:57 PM
Misha, thank you for that tip. I've ordered it and wishlisted the companion 4/7/9

Now I can give my Tintner recordings of 1-3 to the library without feeling guilty. >:D

You're going to give away one of the Hurwitzer's 10/10 reference recordings (the Tintner Third)?  ???  For shame, Jeffrey, for shame  ;)


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on June 25, 2013, 05:50:02 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 25, 2013, 05:40:19 AM
Because I obviously was lacking in Bruckner, this new addition to the roster:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/A1johNl-LnL._SL1500_.jpg)
  Toni Bruckner
Symphony No.6
+ Bach/Webern ricerare
C.v.Dohnanyi / Cleveland Orchestra
CPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000004208/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000004208/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000004208/goodmusicguideuk-21)

(Not only got it for the Bach-Webern... but that was a big fat attractive bonus!)

That's a gorgeous recording. (And chuckling at "Toni Bruckner" - sounds like a Hollywood real estate agent.  ;D)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on June 25, 2013, 08:59:41 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 25, 2013, 05:45:15 AM
You're going to give away one of the Hurwitzer's 10/10 reference recordings (the Tintner Third)?  ???  For shame, Jeffrey, for shame  ;)


Sarge

Probably not actually give it away--but if I did,  it would mean everyone in Broward County would have the opportunity to listen to a Hurwitz reference recording,  instead of me keeping it selfishly to myself. :P
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: pencils on July 17, 2013, 10:29:02 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 16, 2013, 07:35:31 AM
GMG members know that I am very partial to the Nowak edition of the symphonies, especially as performed by Eugen Jochum and Company on DGG.

But I have listened to the Originalfassung (or at least William Carragan's version of it) many times now, and it is a wonderful ride!

The few revisions which I prefer from the Nowak version are outweighed by the great stuff missing in it.

And this is a wonderful performance:

[asin]B0000060D5[/asin]

I love this also. The Tintner cycle is one of the best inexpensive purchases I have ever made. Been reading some of this thread today, and been reminded how much I am moved by Bruckner.

This at the moment:

(http://csoarchives.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/029-bruckner-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 24, 2013, 05:13:00 PM
Loved Vanksa's 3rd with the BBC Scottish SO, now had the pleasure of listening to his 4th (1888 version) with the Minnesota Orchestra via Spotify. Another successful interpretation to these ears, very detailed with a consistent emotional drive, cymbals and all.
Any other takers?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S6Drd8bhL._SY350_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 12, 2013, 01:27:39 PM
While hearing a football game in the background, my ears suddenly pick up one of the main motifs from the Bruckner Symphony #5!!!    ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

Specifically bar 477 at X (in the Nowak score) of the first movement.  The game was Missouri vs. Georgia and I believe the Missouri band played it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J on October 13, 2013, 01:47:56 PM
Quote from: Cato on October 12, 2013, 01:27:39 PM
While hearing a football game in the background, my ears suddenly pick up one of the main motifs from the Bruckner Symphony #5!!!    ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

Specifically bar 477 at X (in the Nowak score) of the first movement.  The game was Missouri vs. Georgia and I believe the Missouri band played it.

It's pretty well known (at least here in the Columbia, Missouri area) that the "Mizzou" fight song incorporates that motif from the 5th Symphony (who says middle America lacks all cultural sensibility?).  As the story goes,
back in the early 70's a graduate student in the School of Music, who also happened to be a fanatical Bruckner admirer, won a contest for updating that game anthem you were hearing, and later admitted to the appropriation (after a big hullabaloo in the local press, and some interrogation from School Administration).  Supposedly there's other snippets of Bruckner in the song, - though I can't remember exactly from where now.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 13, 2013, 02:07:17 PM
Quote from: J on October 13, 2013, 01:47:56 PM
It's pretty well known (at least here in the Columbia, Missouri area) that the "Mizzou" fight song incorporates that motif from the 5th Symphony (who says middle America lacks all cultural sensibility?).  As the story goes,
back in the early 70's a graduate student in the School of Music, who also happened to be a fanatical Bruckner admirer, won a contest for updating that game anthem you were hearing, and later admitted to the appropriation. Supposedly there's other snippets of Bruckner in the song, - though I can't remember exactly from where now.

Wow!  Great to know, J!  That explains what I heard!

And as an Ohioan in Middle America (aka "Flyover Country"), I agree with the objection to the claim of the snobs (e.g. my sister-in-law in California) that cultural sensibility cannot be found here!

Most of the dreck in our kulcher is created on the coasts!

The Toledo Symphony, as I have reported here throughout the years, has established a tradition of playing a Bruckner symphony every year in the Roman Catholic cathedral in Toledo.  And the performances have been excellent!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 18, 2013, 05:09:30 PM
Does anyone know of an article which explains in the reconstructed finale of the Ninth, as recorded recently by Rattle.

To my ears it sounds completely convincing, and, of course I can hear what's going on thematically, what I'd like to know about is the tonal scheme.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 18, 2013, 05:38:59 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 18, 2013, 05:09:30 PM
Does anyone know of an article which explains in the reconstructed finale of the Ninth, as recorded recently by Rattle.

To my ears it sounds completely convincing, and, of course I can hear what's going on thematically, what I'd like to know about is the tonal scheme.

This should answer your questions:

http://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/articlesEnglish/cohrsB9finale/BG_Cohrs_Introduction_SPCM2012.pdf (http://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/articlesEnglish/cohrsB9finale/BG_Cohrs_Introduction_SPCM2012.pdf)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 18, 2013, 09:24:29 PM
Thanks, that's interesting, but it's not what I'm looking for.

I want a narrative which says "the finale starts in x major.... then modulating to y minor for the contrasting theme..... ending in D major".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 19, 2013, 01:53:31 PM
To add to the above, the article referred to has, on pp20-21 a thematic breakdown of the finale, but with only sporadic indications of key. As well has having a full narrative of this, it would be useful to have a general discussion about tonality in the symphony. Bruckner is usually very good at treating different tonal areas in different movements, so if the slow movement had deal extensively with a certain set of keys, then the finale will emphasise other ones in relation to the tonic.

My interest in this is from reading Robert Simpson's Bruckner book. In his last published words on the subject (the revised edition in 1992) he doubted that the reconstructions he had seen would prove to have the necessary tonal momentum to support the ending of the finale. My tone-deaf ears suggest that the latest reconstruction does have this, but I wanted to read an account discussing this aspect of the reconstruction work.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on October 21, 2013, 12:16:37 PM
I don't know of an article that walks you through the movement, but you should definitely get a hold of this album (or listen to it on Spotify):

http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-Documentation-Fragment-Harnoncourt/dp/B0000AF1IG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382386485&sr=8-1&keywords=bruckner+harnoncourt

There is a lecture both in English and German (separate tracks), in which Harnoncourt and his musicians explain what is left of the movement that is original Bruckner, and he explains the structure a bit as well as he goes along while conducting the pertinent fragments.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on November 29, 2013, 05:09:44 AM
Oh, I had to look in here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21529.msg761683.html#msg761683), hadn't I . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Octave on December 11, 2013, 09:37:56 PM
Two questions:

1. To revive a topic that's had some discussion: are there any ~complete motets recordings that are most highly recommended?  I have the old Jochum recordings (the old 'embossed' white box), but I'd like a more recent recording and/or different approach.  Monkey Greg got the Jones/Naxos early this year and sampled a couple others, and there was brief discussion.
Actually, strong recommendations for sundry recordings of each of the motets might be even better.
Monkey Greg's post with a bit of discussion following is here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,29.msg698255/topicseen.html#msg698255).

2. Is there an exceptional recording of the REQUIEM that must be heard?  These seem more rare.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on December 11, 2013, 11:34:02 PM
Quote from: Octave on December 11, 2013, 09:37:56 PM
2. Is there an exceptional recording of the REQUIEM that must be heard?  These seem more rare.

There's a decent one on Hyperion (amazon.com link (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Requiem-Psalms-112-114/dp/B000002ZJR/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1386837021&sr=8-1&keywords=bruckner+requiem)) but I've never thought of it as particularly exceptional (i.e. of the "must be heard" variety).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 12, 2013, 08:58:09 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on December 11, 2013, 11:34:02 PM
There's a decent one on Hyperion (amazon.com link (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Requiem-Psalms-112-114/dp/B000002ZJR/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1386837021&sr=8-1&keywords=bruckner+requiem)) but I've never thought of it as particularly exceptional (i.e. of the "must be heard" variety).

Wow!  The Requiem!  I must admit that I have not listened nor thought of it in decades!!!

My LP collection had (I think) a Nonesuch recording, but I cannot recall anything else about it.

Wikipedia has a recommendation for this one:

[asin]B000002ZJR[/asin]

and this one:

[asin]B001JHI8QQ[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on December 12, 2013, 09:11:03 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 12, 2013, 08:58:09 AM
Wikipedia has a recommendation
Oh, they recommend recordings these days?  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 12, 2013, 09:13:20 AM
Quote from: North Star on December 12, 2013, 09:11:03 AM
Oh, they recommend recordings these days?  8)

Well, they did this time!   ;)

From what I can tell, these are the only two available anyway!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on December 12, 2013, 09:17:09 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 12, 2013, 09:13:20 AM
Well, they did this time!   ;)

From what I can tell, these are the only two available anyway!
Yes, in that case it's probably not too subjective for Wikipedia.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on December 12, 2013, 09:23:54 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 12, 2013, 08:58:09 AM
and this one:

[asin]B001JHI8QQ[/asin]

I like the Ockeghem / de Lassus volume in that series, so I'll give that one a shot!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Octave on December 12, 2013, 12:37:26 PM
Thanks Cato and Wanderer.
Someone else posted right after Wanderer this morning and suggested yet another recording, out of print and perhaps never CD'ed.  I was at work and did not save the link....and now the post has disappeared!  I'm annoyed that I cannot even remember who the poster was, but if he reads this, can he PM me with that link?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on December 29, 2013, 09:26:35 AM
First listens to these magnificent performances (particularly the 2nd).  Sizzling, spicy hot!!  :)

Bruckner

Symphony No. 2 in C minor (1875/76 Nowak)
Symphony No. 3 in D minor (1888/89 Nowak)


Jochum
Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks

DG

[asin]B00006YXOX[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 30, 2013, 10:35:16 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 24, 2013, 05:13:00 PM
Loved Vanksa's 3rd with the BBC Scottish SO, now had the pleasure of listening to his 4th (1888 version) with the Minnesota Orchestra via Spotify. Another successful interpretation to these ears, very detailed with a consistent emotional drive, cymbals and all.
Any other takers?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S6Drd8bhL._SY350_.jpg)

Where are the cymbals placed Greg in this version? And how regularly? I'm all for loads of percussion as you know, but I wonder if adding cymbals to Bruckner (I know it has been done in 5 as well), makes moments like the one crash in the Adagio of 7 slightly less awe-inspiring and special.. that crash is one of my favourite moments in all Bruckner and all music! :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on December 30, 2013, 10:49:08 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 30, 2013, 10:35:16 AM
Where are the cymbals placed Greg in this version? And how regularly? I'm all for loads of percussion as you know, but I wonder if adding cymbals to Bruckner (I know it has been done in 5 as well), makes moments like the one crash in the Adagio of 7 slightly less awe-inspiring and special.. that crash is one of my favourite moments in all Bruckner and all music! :D

Same here, Daniel.  I'm an 'unpurist', when it comes to stuff like this.   :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 30, 2013, 11:00:55 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 29, 2013, 09:26:35 AM
First listens to these magnificent performances (particularly the 2nd).  Sizzling, spicy hot!!  :)

Bruckner

Symphony No. 2 in C minor (1875/76 Nowak)
Symphony No. 3 in D minor (1888/89 Nowak)


Jochum
Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks

DG

[asin]B00006YXOX[/asin]

My favorite set! 

And speaking of cymbal clashes NOT indicated in the score...

Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 30, 2013, 10:35:16 AM
Where are the cymbals placed Greg in this version? And how regularly? I'm all for loads of percussion as you know, but I wonder if adding cymbals to Bruckner (I know it has been done in 5 as well), makes moments like the one crash in the Adagio of 7 slightly less awe-inspiring and special.. that crash is one of my favourite moments in all Bruckner and all music! :D

Jochum adds cymbals most effectively in the first movement of the Fourth (Nowak score) bar 325.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on January 01, 2014, 08:18:11 AM
First listens to these wonderful performances, over the last few days.

Bruckner

Symphony No. 4 in E flat major 'Romantic'
*Symphony No. 5 in B flat major
*Symphony No. 6 in A major
Symphony No. 7 in E major
Symphony No. 8 in C minor
Symphony No. 9 in D minor


Jochum
Berlin Philharmonic
*Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks

DG

[asin]B00006YXOX[/asin]

So, this completes my first run through this set.  All terrific performances, but the performances that really stand out for me are the 2nd, 5th and 6th symphonies!  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on January 01, 2014, 08:43:32 AM
This morning, I listened again to "Sarge's Seventh," the Chailly/Berlin Radio Symphony CD.  I love this stuff!  Could listen to the Adagio on repeat forever.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 01, 2014, 09:06:20 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 01, 2014, 08:43:32 AM
This morning, I listened again to "Sarge's Seventh," the Chailly/Berlin Radio Symphony CD.  I love this stuff!  Could listen to the Adagio on repeat forever.

I have that performance on the listening pile and am very excited to hear it, especially now that I know it's 'Sarge's Seventh'!! :D I agree, the Adagio is just incredible. The climax with the cymbal crash is one of my favourite moments in music. So exciting and glorious! :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 01, 2014, 09:13:00 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 01, 2014, 09:06:20 AM
I have that performance on the listening pile and am very excited to hear it, especially now that I know it's 'Sarge's Seventh'!! :D I agree, the Adagio is just incredible. The climax with the cymbal crash is one of my favourite moments in music. So exciting and glorious! :)

Have you heard the symphony live yet, Daniel? The Adagio is staggering live. I've heard Sinopoli, Barenboim and Welser-Möst (the most impressive of the three actually) but missed Celi  :(

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on January 01, 2014, 09:27:49 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 01, 2014, 08:43:32 AM
This morning, I listened again to "Sarge's Seventh," the Chailly/Berlin Radio Symphony CD.  I love this stuff!  Could listen to the Adagio on repeat forever.
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 01, 2014, 09:06:20 AM
I have that performance on the listening pile and am very excited to hear it, especially now that I know it's 'Sarge's Seventh'!! :D I agree, the Adagio is just incredible. The climax with the cymbal crash is one of my favourite moments in music. So exciting and glorious! :)
That's a great performance indeed! And yes, I've repeated the Adagio aplenty, too.   :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 01, 2014, 09:29:25 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 01, 2014, 09:13:00 AM
Have you heard the symphony live yet, Daniel? The Adagio is staggering live. I've heard Sinopoli, Barenboim and Welser-Möst (the most impressive of the three actually) but missed Celi  :(

Sarge

Just once, Sarge. Last year at the Proms - Philharmonia/Salonen, it was absolutely excellent, plus they had David Jackson on cymbals and he's my personal favourite cymbalist :p Really was an incredible performance, got amazing reviews too.

Definitely need to hear Celi's Bruckner 7th very soon.. I can imagine how his Adagio would be! :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on January 01, 2014, 11:20:26 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 01, 2014, 08:43:32 AM
This morning, I listened again to "Sarge's Seventh," the Chailly/Berlin Radio Symphony CD.  I love this stuff!  Could listen to the Adagio on repeat forever.

Mmm, my sentiments regarding the Adagio echo yours, Karl.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on January 06, 2014, 12:18:28 PM
I've been on a Bruckner binge since Christmas. In particular, I've been exploring the old guard; Knappertsbusch, Horenstein, Jochum, Barbirolli and William Steinberg. William Steinberg is becoming a favorite Brucknerian. There's a bunch of his broadcasts (with the BPO) on the MetroGnome blog and they sound fantastic. statework.blogspot.com

Knappertsbusch is very memorable, moving, and full of exciting twists and turns.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on January 06, 2014, 12:31:15 PM
By the way, I haven't heard any of Carl Schuricht's Bruckner, whats a good affordable place to start?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 06, 2014, 12:50:12 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 06, 2014, 12:31:15 PM
By the way, I haven't heard any of Carl Schuricht's Bruckner, what a good affordable place to start?

He did an incredible Ninth on Angel in the late 1950's early 1960's.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: trung224 on January 06, 2014, 01:00:53 PM
   Welcome to old-world Bruckner, Leo K. If you interested in Schuricht, I think you should grab the Schuricht- EMI Icon boxset. The Bruckner 3rd, 8th and 9th in this box are the best from Schuricht at very good stereo sound and modest price too. There are more Bruckner from him on Hanssler label (4th,5th,7th,8th,9th), but most of them are on mono sound (except the Fifth), and the playing from Orchestra are not as polished as VPO.
  Of course, Schuricht left the magnificent Fifth with VPO on DG( but it is OOP now) and the better Seventh with Hague Orchestra, which is only available on the expensive Scribendum boxset.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on January 06, 2014, 01:04:07 PM
Quote from: trung224 on January 06, 2014, 01:00:53 PM
   Welcome to old-world Bruckner, Leo K. If you interested in Schuricht, I think you should grab the Schuricht- EMI Icon boxset. The Bruckner 3rd, 8th and 9th in this box are the best from Schuricht at very good stereo sound and modest price too. There are more Bruckner from him on Hanssler label (4th,5th,7th,8th,9th), but most of them are on mono sound (except the Fifth), and the playing from Orchestra are not as polished as VPO.
  Of course, Schuricht left the magnificent Fifth with VPO on DG( but it is OOP now) and the better Seventh with Hague Orchestra, which is only available on the expensive Scribendum boxset.

Thanks man! I'll start with the Schuricht IMI box!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on January 08, 2014, 09:44:26 AM
I've got the new remastered versions of the Schuricht EMI Bruckner recordings, the B8 and B9 that is, and it's radiant to hear!


Next up, the Skrowaczewski cycle.



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 10:32:27 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 08, 2014, 09:44:26 AMNext up, the Skrowaczewski cycle.

An excellent cycle, Leo. Skrowaczewski brings so much energy to Bruckner, but his approach reminds me a bit of Tennstedt. If I'm not mistaken, he favors slower tempi, but not Celibidache slow. ;) 8)
Title: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on January 08, 2014, 12:16:52 PM

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 10:32:27 AM
An excellent cycle, Leo. Skrowaczewski brings so much energy to Bruckner, but his approach reminds me a bit of Tennstedt. If I'm not mistaken, he favors slower tempi, but not Celibidache slow. ;) 8)

Thanks man, I'm glad it's not Celi-slow, I'm excited to hear his ideas with Bruckner. I'm loving these old guard recordings.

I have a broadcast of Tennstedt leading the CSO in the B8, wow, that CSO brass is enchanting. It seems Tennstedt is better to listen to when live. There seems to be a pressing energy in the performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 12:22:11 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 08, 2014, 12:16:52 PM
Thanks man, I'm glad it's not Celi-slow, I'm excited to hear his ideas with Bruckner. I'm loving these old guard recordings.

I have a broadcast of Tennstedt leading the CSO in the B8, wow, that CSO brass is enchanting. It seems Tennstedt is better to listen to when live. There seems to be a pressing energy in the performance.

Yeah, you'll enjoy Skrowaczewski, Leo. Will be interested to read what you think about his conducting. I don't really know much about Tennstedt as his repertoire isn't always up my alley, but his Bruckner recordings are quite good.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on January 08, 2014, 12:37:46 PM
I really liked the Skrowaczewski recordings I've heard (7, 8 & 9)

I'm definitely trying to not buy this...
[asin]B00EXS4OVQ[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: trung224 on January 08, 2014, 02:07:03 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 10:32:27 AM
An excellent cycle, Leo. Skrowaczewski brings so much energy to Bruckner, but his approach reminds me a bit of Tennstedt. If I'm not mistaken, he favors slower tempi, but not Celibidache slow. ;) 8)
Really, MI. I think Tennstedt and Skrowacszewski and Tennstedt are very different, especially in Bruckner. Skrowacszewski (even in live performance) always favors thoughtful interpretation with moderate tempo, while Tennstedt usually uses rubato to create tension. Tennstedt ´Bruckner are among the fastest, as I recall 72 minutes for the Fourth and 75 minutes for the Eight.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 02:25:23 PM
Quote from: trung224 on January 08, 2014, 02:07:03 PM
   Really, MI. I think Tennstedt and Skrowacszewski and Tennstedt are very different, especially in Bruckner. Skrowacszewski (even in live performance) always favors thoughtful interpretation with moderate tempo, while Tennstedt usually uses rubato to create tension. Tennstedt ´Bruckner are among the fastest, as I recall 72 minutes for the Fourth and 75 minutes for the Eight.

Shows what I know, which is very little. :) I haven't listened to Skrowacszewski or Tennstedt in years and I don't see me listening to them in the future any time soon. If I'm going to listen to Bruckner, I usually just pull out a Wand recording. He suits my Bruckner tastes just fine. 8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: trung224 on January 08, 2014, 02:57:42 PM
  No problems, MI.  :) Classical music is not only Bruckner. Even I, a Bruckner nut, now spend more time to Scandinavian composer like Laangaard, Svendsen, Atterberg than Bruckner :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 03:19:05 PM
Quote from: trung224 on January 08, 2014, 02:57:42 PM
  No problems, MI.  :) Classical music is not only Bruckner. Even I, a Bruckner nut, now spend more time to Scandinavian composer like Laangaard, Svendsen, Atterberg than Bruckner :D

Speaking of Scandinavian composers, I'm getting reacquainted with Nielsen and loving every minute of it. Such an awesome composer. Strangely enough, he was actually one of the first composers I got into.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: trung224 on January 08, 2014, 04:46:17 PM
 Speaking of Wand, today I have a chance to hear his live recording Bruckner 8th in Tokyo with NDR Orchestra on Altus . Overall his interpretation is not very different when comparing with his live Lübeck Cathedral or his live BPO, but the phrasing is much more personal and raw than the BPO one, and the sound is less reverb than the Lübeck recordings. Personally, I will rank this one as the best from eight or nine  Bruckner 8th from him
(http://i1319.photobucket.com/albums/t677/trung224/DSC08956_zpse2a079f4.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on January 13, 2014, 02:40:10 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 12:22:11 PM
Yeah, you'll enjoy Skrowaczewski, Leo. Will be interested to read what you think about his conducting. I don't really know much about Tennstedt as his repertoire isn't always up my alley, but his Bruckner recordings are quite good.

Indeed, Skrowaczewski's cycle is fantastic so far! Great sound quality too. Aces!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 13, 2014, 03:00:16 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 13, 2014, 02:40:10 PM
Indeed, Skrowaczewski's cycle is fantastic so far! Great sound quality too. Aces!

Nice avatar. 8) Glad you're enjoying Skrowaczewski's cycle.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on January 14, 2014, 06:05:40 AM


A Survey of Bruckner Cycles

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aRBqVEFm6bU/UPm2FsFICBI/AAAAAAAAF8M/EMaiDsgkkPE/s1600/Anton_Bruckner_II_laurson_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)

Updated to include the Profil catch-all box & new Tintner box.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Überstürzter Neumann on January 14, 2014, 11:38:22 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 13, 2014, 02:40:10 PM
Indeed, Skrowaczewski's cycle is fantastic so far! Great sound quality too. Aces!
Couldn't agree more. I am a recent Bruckner-convert myself, and this is my absolute favourite.  Annoyingly I don't seem to find anything wrong with it...
Quote from: jlaurson on January 14, 2014, 06:05:40 AM

A Survey of Bruckner Cycles

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aRBqVEFm6bU/UPm2FsFICBI/AAAAAAAAF8M/EMaiDsgkkPE/s1600/Anton_Bruckner_II_laurson_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)

Updated to include the Profil catch-all box & new Tintner box.
Thanks a lot for the link, sir. That is a great site - kudos for your good work!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Willow Pattern on January 15, 2014, 01:18:14 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 14, 2014, 06:05:40 AM

A Survey of Bruckner Cycles

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aRBqVEFm6bU/UPm2FsFICBI/AAAAAAAAF8M/EMaiDsgkkPE/s1600/Anton_Bruckner_II_laurson_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)

Updated to include the Profil catch-all box & new Tintner box.

Great work as usual! - thanks for posting :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on January 21, 2014, 09:24:17 AM
The 1887, original version of Bruckner's 8 is becoming my favorite version of this work. I'm currently studying the recording by Simone Young and hope to get Tintner's account soon.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 21, 2014, 09:48:56 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 21, 2014, 09:24:17 AM
The 1887, original version of Bruckner's 8 is becoming my favorite version of this work. I'm currently studying the recording by Simone Young and hope to get Tintner's account soon.

I listened to its entirety not too long ago and it is something special, Leo. I'm starting to feel the same way about the 8th as I am his 3rd, that the original composition was just fine and didn't necessarily require all the revisions. I listened to both Young and Tintner on Spotify, both very well done, interesting contrast between the two with Young preferring a speedier read-through. I ended up however ordering the Tintner, which does have inferior sound quality to the Young, but I love the rich drama that Tintner draws.

Also, Nagano's recording of the original 4th has me praising the first edition of that as well.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on January 21, 2014, 09:59:17 AM
The BSO played the Ninth magnificently under Christoph Eschenbach's direction this Saturday past.  He's made my wife and mom-in-law Bruckner fans, too.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on January 21, 2014, 10:29:18 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 21, 2014, 09:48:56 AM
I listened to its entirety not too long ago and it is something special, Leo. I'm starting to feel the same way about the 8th as I am his 3rd, that the original composition was just fine and didn't necessarily require all the revisions. I listened to both Young and Tintner on Spotify, both very well done, interesting contrast between the two with Young preferring a speedier read-through. I ended up however ordering the Tintner, which does have inferior sound quality to the Young, but I love the rich drama that Tintner draws.

Also, Nagano's recording of the original 4th has me praising the first edition of that as well.

Thanks for the comment, I didn't realize that the Tintner was on Spotify too! I'll check it there before I buy. I definitely agree about Tintner's recording of the B3, it made me prefer the original score too.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on January 21, 2014, 10:31:12 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 21, 2014, 09:59:17 AM
The BSO played the Ninth magnificently under Christoph Eschenbach's direction this Saturday past.  He's made my wife and mom-in-law Bruckner fans, too.

I have a broadcast recording of Eschenbach conducting the B9, I don't have the info with me but I recall the performance was VERY fine.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 21, 2014, 05:15:27 PM
Tintner's 1887 version of the 8th...
Tintner takes the Adagio to 31 mins, it's long, but it's very majestic and powerful, beautifully performed too. I have to say that I find the original 1887 version's Scherzo to be more engaging than its following versions. Also, I love the finale's coda from the 1887. Interesting to compare Tintner's 3:14 min coda to Simone Young's 2:05 min coda.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519UI7-eaoL._SX300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on January 22, 2014, 01:49:31 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 21, 2014, 05:15:27 PM
Tintner's 1887 version of the 8th...
Tintner takes the Adagio to 31 mins, it's long, but it's very majestic and powerful, beautifully performed too. I have to say that I find the original 1887 version's Scherzo to be more engaging than its following versions. Also, I love the finale's coda from the 1887. Interesting to compare Tintner's 3:14 min coda to Simone Young's 2:05 min coda.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519UI7-eaoL._SX300_.jpg)

That long Adagio sounds appealing! I can't till next month when I'll get Tintner's account. I've been paying extra attention to the 1887 Finale (Young's account) and it's so moving and powerful.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 22, 2014, 02:03:40 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 21, 2014, 09:59:17 AM
The BSO played the Ninth magnificently under Christoph Eschenbach's direction this Saturday past.  He's made my wife and mom-in-law Bruckner fans, too.

We welcome all to Bruckner, even if they start at the end of the symphonies!  ;)

Concerning unrevised (i.e. un-second-and-third-guessed) versions of the symphonies, I remain something of a hybrid.  With the Fourth, no, I will take the later version.  With the Third, I believe the original might now be replacing the Leopold Nowak in my preference.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 22, 2014, 04:21:55 PM
Jochum on DG? Or Jochum on EMI (now Warner Classics)??

Which performances are preferred?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 22, 2014, 04:34:56 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 22, 2014, 04:21:55 PM
Jochum on DG? Or Jochum on EMI (now Warner Classics)??

Which performances are preferred?


I have only a single recording of Jochum/DG - the 8th - and pitted against the EMI 8th (I own whole cycle) the EMI comes out on top. Dunno if there's a shred of value in offering this, but...


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 22, 2014, 04:44:46 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on January 22, 2014, 04:34:56 PM
Dunno if there's a shred of value in offering this, but...

Absolutely there is, thanks DD.  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 22, 2014, 05:47:07 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 22, 2014, 04:21:55 PM
Jochum on DG? Or Jochum on EMI (now Warner Classics)??

Which performances are preferred?

DGG, although... Why "either/or" ?  Why not "both/and" ?   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 22, 2014, 06:08:53 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 22, 2014, 05:47:07 PM
DGG, although... Why "either/or" ?  Why not "both/and" ?   0:)

My wallet would appreciate the "either/or", but that has never stopped me!  ;D

Thanks, Cato.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on January 22, 2014, 06:17:52 PM
Looking at Tintner albums, I found one of the more memorable Amazon reviews I've ever seen (http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-Original-Version-Nowak/product-reviews/B00003Q40K/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#R1COJE6Y3S29O), apparently co-written with a disapproving cat.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: trung224 on January 23, 2014, 12:56:39 AM
 Apart from a complete cycle 1956-1958, Jochum recorded several individual Bruckner's symphonies for DGG. Good as the stereo remakes are, the mono ones are even more flexible and blazing.
[asin]B000001GXM[/asin]
[asin]B00006L76U[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on January 23, 2014, 01:00:01 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 22, 2014, 06:08:53 PM
My wallet would appreciate the "either/or", but that has never stopped me!  ;D

Thanks, Cato.

Same answer here.

"DG... but". (Both can be had cheaply these days. (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html))

Also agreed on the very fine mono BRSO Jochum-Bruckner!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on January 23, 2014, 04:20:00 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 22, 2014, 02:03:40 PM
We welcome all to Bruckner, even if they start at the end of the symphonies!  ;)

That was my path, too!  I picked up the Giulini/Chicago box (for, as it seemed at the time, other things), and lo! I heard the Ninth in all its effulgence!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on January 23, 2014, 04:28:03 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 22, 2014, 04:21:55 PM
Jochum on DG? Or Jochum on EMI (now Warner Classics)??

Which performances are preferred?

Both Greg.  I enjoy both immensely.  Jochum is definitely my Bruckner conductor.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on January 23, 2014, 04:29:39 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 23, 2014, 04:20:00 AM
I heard the Ninth in all its effulgence!

Karl, how did you enjoy the performance you attending of B9 performed by the Boston Symphony Orchestra?  Was it apocalyptic?  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on January 23, 2014, 04:35:26 AM
Just fabulously beautiful, Ray.  In fact . . . Masha has a show opening this Sunday, and is taking thought for music for each of the three larger rooms, and she wants the first movement of the Ninth as part of her "playlist" for the landscapes.  So you may judge what a positive impact the concert had!  0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on January 23, 2014, 04:35:56 AM
Quote from: trung224 on January 23, 2014, 12:56:39 AM
Apart from a complete cycle 1956-1958, Jochum recorded several individual Bruckner's symphonies for DGG. Good as the stereo remakes are, the mono ones are even more flexible and blazing.
[asin]B000001GXM[/asin]
[asin]B00006L76U[/asin]

Oh, this remains a dangerous place for me . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on January 23, 2014, 04:39:46 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 23, 2014, 04:35:26 AM
Just fabulously beautiful, Ray.  In fact . . . Masha has a show opening this Sunday, and is taking thought for music for each of the three larger rooms, and she wants the first movement of the Ninth as part of her "playlist" for the landscapes.  So you may judge what a positive impact the concert had!  0:)

Mmm, excellent Karl.  I've only heard the 7th so far in live performance, and it was an unforgettable experience indeed.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on January 24, 2014, 01:48:40 PM
(http://www.classicalvinyl.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/l/x/lxt5255-56.jpg)

I'm enjoying this account of the B5 by Knappersbusch this afternoon. Schalk edition aside, this is marvelous!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 24, 2014, 01:57:30 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 23, 2014, 04:28:03 AM
Both Greg.  I enjoy both immensely.  Jochum is definitely my Bruckner conductor.  :)

Amen, Brother!  I say Amen!   0:)

Yet others have their moments, as named above, but let me add Carl Schuricht to the listings here in more recent pages.  We have mentioned him fairly often before, but let me do it again, just to be sure that he is not forgotten!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 24, 2014, 07:01:59 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 23, 2014, 04:28:03 AM
Both Greg.  I enjoy both immensely.  Jochum is definitely my Bruckner conductor.  :)

Quote from: Cato on January 24, 2014, 01:57:30 PM
Amen, Brother!  I say Amen!   0:)

Been sampling the Jochum sets online, interpretations are similar, choice seems to be centered around sound quality and orchestral performance, which both succeed in quite well.  8) Thanks, Gents, for the info.


Other news: Just did an inventory of my Symphony No. 3 recordings, I think I'm covered in terms of capturing the scope of this piece...

No. 3
Tintner - 1873
Inbal - 1873
Norrington - 1873
Solti - 1877
Harnoncourt – 1877
Sinopoli - 1877
Vasnka - 1877
Dohnanyi - 1878
Barenboim - 1878
Chailly - 1889
Celibidache – 1889
Karajan - 1889
Skrowaczewski - 1889




Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 24, 2014, 07:53:24 PM
I have quite a large Bruckner collection, I'm thinking of pulling out one of Jochum sets. Which one should it be? DG or EMI? Let's filp a coin...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 24, 2014, 07:56:06 PM
And the set I'll be listening to...

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/069/MI0001069755.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

The coin landed on tails which was the DG set. I'm not a huge Jochum fan and I considered both of his Bruckner sets to be jerky, edgy, and a typical stop-and-go affair, but it's been years since I've heard any of these performances from Jochum.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 25, 2014, 03:07:17 AM
That Jochum set contains my favourite performance of the Adagio of the Sixth Symphony.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 25, 2014, 03:30:39 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 24, 2014, 07:01:59 PM
Other news: Just did an inventory of my Symphony No. 3 recordings, I think I'm covered in terms of capturing the scope of this piece...

No. 3
Tintner - 1873
Inbal - 1873
Norrington - 1873
Solti - 1877
Harnoncourt – 1877
Sinopoli - 1877
Vasnka - 1877
Dohnanyi - 1878
Barenboim - 1878
Chailly - 1889
Celibidache – 1889
Karajan - 1889
Skrowaczewski - 1889

You're missing the 1890 revision Bruckner did with the brothers Schalk. Recordings I own: Szell/Cleveland, Sanderling/Gewandhaus, Rozhdestvensky/LargeSORadioTV, and Knappertsbusch/Vienna Phil. Barbirolli and Schuricht also used the 1890 in their performances.


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 25, 2014, 04:18:02 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 25, 2014, 03:30:39 AM
You're missing the 1890 revision Bruckner did with the brothers Schalk. Recordings I own: Szell/Cleveland, Sanderling/Gewandhaus, Rozhdestvensky/LargeSORadioTV, and Knappertsbusch/Vienna Phil. Barbirolli and Schuricht also used the 1890 in their performances.


Sarge

Thank you, Sarge! I shall seek it out!
Do you have a preferred version and recording to match?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 25, 2014, 06:33:49 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 25, 2014, 03:07:17 AM
That Jochum set contains my favourite performance of the Adagio of the Sixth Symphony.

That's it? Nothing else is memorable about it, Johan? What about the EMI Jochum set?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 25, 2014, 06:53:40 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 25, 2014, 06:33:49 AM
That's it? Nothing else is memorable about it, Johan? What about the EMI Jochum set?


I generally love Jochum's performances. I haven't made an exact comparison of these readings with the Staatskapelle Dresden set, though. Lack of time. The Ninth in the DGG set was the second Bruckner symphony I ever bought and heard (after the Szell 3), and I loved it. That's all I can offer, alas. Apart from the fact, as already stated, that the Adagio of the Sixth gets the best performance I yet have heard (those closing minutes are indescribably moving).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 25, 2014, 07:18:58 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 25, 2014, 06:53:40 AM

I generally love Jochum's performances. I haven't made an exact comparison of these readings with the Staatskapelle Dresden set, though. Lack of time. The Ninth in the DGG set was the second Bruckner symphony I ever bought and heard (after the Szell 3), and I loved it. That's all I can offer, alas. Apart from the fact, as already stated, that the Adagio of the Sixth gets the best performance I yet have heard (those closing minutes are indescribably moving).

Cool, thanks Johan. 8) Seeing as the 6th and the 9th are my favorite Bruckner symphonies, I'll definitely check these two performances out first.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 25, 2014, 07:24:12 PM
A truly solid 7th. The finale has a particular drive that seems to be missing from a lot of recordings that find the need to always pump the brakes on the tempo when climaxes arrive. Not that either way is right, but slower doesn't always result in a more transcendent sound. But that's the beauty of Bruckner recordings, is that we can experience the best from all facets of his music.
Harnoncourt created a monumental, spacious 5th, and an optimistic 9th, both of which I hold in high regard, that will now be joined with his 7th. Also helps to have the glorious, and formidable Vienna Phil. playing along in large Teldec sound. I'm looking forward to future spins of this disc, probably much sooner than later.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5103Y028K6L._SY350_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2014, 05:53:04 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 25, 2014, 04:18:02 AM
Do you have a preferred version and recording to match?

Despite it not being as structurally sound as the earlier versions, I like the 1889 best. Celibidache/Munich and Maazel/SOBR are the favorites. Jochum/Dresden is growing on me.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on January 28, 2014, 11:41:48 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/069/MI0001069755.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

As a relatively new Brucknerian (2007-) I've found the Jochum DG set to live up to the legend. The Jochum B6 is so amazing! This symphony (along with the 3rd and 5th) is becoming my favorite Bruckner.






Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 28, 2014, 12:12:35 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 28, 2014, 11:41:48 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/069/MI0001069755.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

As a relatively new Brucknerian (2007-) I've found the Jochum DG set to live up to the legend. The Jochum B6 is so amazing! This symphony (along with the 3rd and 5th) is becoming my favorite Bruckner.


Nice to hear you can appreciate the Jochum B6 as much as I do. (I think his B5 with the Staatskapelle is more spectacular, by the way.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 28, 2014, 12:52:42 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 28, 2014, 12:41:31 PM
With some trepidation, allow me to quote an excerpt from my unpublished novel, which contains a scene where a young organist (Tom) has adapted the last part of the slow movement of Bruckner's Sixth Symphony for the funeral of a child killed in a bicycle accident:



I love the word 'angelicity'.


I think you describe those final minutes very well. That mighty and passionate descending phrase in the strings - I have always felt that as a bridge between heaven and earth, too.


Quote from: sanantonio on January 28, 2014, 12:49:10 PM
You mean to say you prefer this one?

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/5099998458356.gif)

Interesting.  I have the DG but the Dresden is on NML and I have never heard anything from it.  Will give it a listen since you've brought it up.


My B5 with the Staatskapelle is part of a Brilliant box. The performance is dated February 1980, Lukaskirche, Dresden.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 28, 2014, 01:21:47 PM
Quote from: Cato on Today at 01:41:31 PM

 
QuoteWith some trepidation, allow me to quote an excerpt from my unpublished novel, which contains a scene where a young organist (Tom) has adapted the last part of the slow movement of Bruckner's Sixth Symphony for the funeral of a child killed in a bicycle accident:

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 28, 2014, 12:52:42 PM

I love the word 'angelicity'.


I think you describe those final minutes very well. That mighty and passionate descending phrase in the strings - I have always felt that as a bridge between heaven and earth, too.

Many thanks!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on February 01, 2014, 07:47:27 AM
Now listening to this terrific performance!

Bruckner

Symphony No. 6 in A major


Jochum
Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks

DG

[asin]B00006YXOX[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 01, 2014, 08:32:06 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 01, 2014, 07:47:27 AM
Now listening to this terrific performance!

Bruckner

Symphony No. 6 in A major


Jochum
Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks

DG

A wise choice.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 01, 2014, 08:36:52 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 01, 2014, 07:47:27 AM
Now listening to this terrific performance!

Bruckner

Symphony No. 6 in A major


Jochum
Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks

DG

[asin]B00006YXOX[/asin]

I opted for the DG over the EMI set, for various reasons which I can get into later. Perhaps this one will be included in the Bruckner 6 blind comparison I may do after the Brahms.  ;)
Title: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on February 01, 2014, 09:36:13 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on February 01, 2014, 07:47:27 AM
Now listening to this terrific performance!

Bruckner

Symphony No. 6 in A major


Jochum
Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks

DG

[asin]B00006YXOX[/asin]

An incredible performance indeed!

I've been listening to the B9 in this box and on first hearing it I thought 'revelatory.'

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on February 01, 2014, 10:23:53 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 01, 2014, 08:36:52 AM
I opted for the DG over the EMI set, for various reasons which I can get into later. Perhaps this one will be included in the Bruckner 6 blind comparison I may do after the Brahms.  ;)

+ 1 on the purchase, Greg.

+++++1 on a potential future B6 blind comparison!  :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 01, 2014, 10:49:19 AM
A keeper. What a perfectly driven, stimulating opening movement. Skrowaczewski throws an interesting curve ball with the finale, opens with a firm pace only to really slow things down (way down in fact) for the introduction of the dance-like themes from the strings. Gives the finale an airy quality. It's quite a contrast to the recordings from Solti, Harnoncourt and Vanska who continue this at an Allegro tempo. Both ways have their benefits, just another bonus in the multiple version/recordings/performances from the Bruckner library. As usual Skrowaczewski highlights the beautiful phrasing and details within the score.

[asin]B0021JLNHW[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 01, 2014, 01:27:24 PM
I am in love with this 4th. It might be considered lightweight in power compared to some of the heavyweights of this often recorded piece, but its true power can be found in Venzago's shaping and careful attention to detail of Bruckner's gorgeous score. It's possibly the most conductor-influenced 4th, by that I mean that Venzago has dissected the phrasing and tempi and orchestral color more than I've heard in a recording. Christopher Howell of MusicWeb International wrote it perfectly...

"Venzago analyzes the best tempo for each Brucknerian period, so that it is duly solemn, lilting, dancing, trudging or whatever. He does not make hysterical accelerandos within these periods. The single periods within a long movement may not always go at exactly the same tempo, however. The art of bringing this off lies in timing the pauses between sections and, again, dosing the right attack for the new section so that it convinces as logically following on from the previous one."

I also love the smooth and fluent sound of the Basel S.O., as they handle each of Venzago's interpretative choices splendidly. Also, the second movement feels more like a true Andante, and fits right in with the overall flow of the symphony. The finale really moves, it's playful, it dances, thus giving the darker and heavier moments a more dramatic presence.

[asin]B004YXL5XU[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on February 20, 2014, 07:14:39 AM
For the inclined German-readers among you, and those living in Vienna with nothing to do tonight:

Anton Bruckner: ,,Slow Food" für die Ohren

(http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Portals/0/blog_data/Magazine%202014/Bruckner_560.png)
http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/338/Default.aspx
(http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/338/Default.aspx)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 24, 2014, 03:54:22 AM
The more I hear this, the more I like it:

[asin]B007O3QC8K[/asin]

The reconstruction of the Finale also sounds ever more "convincing" not only as something Bruckner could have had in mind, but also in its sounding like Bruckner, which the Carragan version approached, but not nearly as successfully as this one.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on February 24, 2014, 04:43:43 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 24, 2014, 03:54:22 AM
The more I hear this, the more I like it:
[asin]B007O3QC8K[/asin]

The reconstruction of the Finale also sounds ever more "convincing" not only as something Bruckner could have had in mind, but also in its sounding like Bruckner, which the Carragan version approached, but not nearly as successfully as this one.

Same here, Cato!   :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 24, 2014, 05:53:16 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 20, 2014, 07:14:39 AM
For the inclined German-readers among you, and those living in Vienna with nothing to do tonight:

Anton Bruckner: ,,Slow Food" für die Ohren

(http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/338/Default.aspx)

I finally took a few minutes to read the essay: a nice promotion for the merits of the Fifth Symphony!

The reference to the architect Khaled Saleh Pascha is interesting but obscure: he seems to be (or to have been) a professor of architecture at the Catholic Pontifical University in Chile and at a university in Austria.  I can find no reference to his aesthetic writings right now.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 24, 2014, 06:02:07 AM
The end of the article mentions the title of his thesis ("Gefrorene Musik" : Das Verhältnis von Architektur und Musik in der ästhetischen Theorie) After that it is easy to find:


http://opus4.kobv.de/opus4-tuberlin/frontdoor/index/index/docId/943 (http://opus4.kobv.de/opus4-tuberlin/frontdoor/index/index/docId/943)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 24, 2014, 06:18:26 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 24, 2014, 06:02:07 AM
The end of the article mentions the title of his thesis ("Gefrorene Musik" : Das Verhältnis von Architektur und Musik in der ästhetischen Theorie) After that it is easy to find:


http://opus4.kobv.de/opus4-tuberlin/frontdoor/index/index/docId/943 (http://opus4.kobv.de/opus4-tuberlin/frontdoor/index/index/docId/943)

Many thanks: apparently one needs a license to read the entire the document, but a nice summary is present.

It is interesting that - in my readings at least - Bruckner often generates such comments about musical architecture, perhaps more than most (or any other?) composer(s).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 24, 2014, 06:21:17 AM
You can simply download it, Cato. Where it says 'Download full text files'... (Dokument_43.pdf (4056 KB)) I must find the time to read it one day, though!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 24, 2014, 07:35:48 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 24, 2014, 06:21:17 AM
You can simply download it, Cato. Where it says 'Download full text files'... (Dokument_43.pdf (4056 KB)) I must find the time to read it one day, though!

Okay, I saw a line at the bottom about a license and made one of those assumptions you hear about!   :D

"Ph.D. Deutsch" I have only occasionally read, so yes, a good amount of time is needed!   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: early grey on February 24, 2014, 10:13:18 AM
For those who would like to sample recordings before purchasing or rejecting, I can offer, sourced from LPs
                                         Jochum, Bruckner 7th, Berliner Philharmoniker ( so says the sleeve) and
                                         Karajan, Bruckner 8th, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (likewise!)

The latter is the 1957 recording about which Stewart Crowe has written very interestingly here

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B0009NDKXW/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

although he starts off with the enigmatic phrase: "This 1957 recorded symphony is an historic recording in so many ways, though happily not in sound quality".  I have found the sound quality to be quite raw at times, a result of the very dry acoustic which is unusual for a church. It has the effect of removing any possible sentimentality from the performance but allows some very fine detail to be audible. If you want "sheer beauty of sound and opulence of texture" there is this conductor's last version with the VPO but are these qualities really what Bruckner is about?

http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/vinyl.php

is the link. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on February 24, 2014, 10:32:03 AM
Interesting there's so little Wanderlust here. Despite his current huge reputation I have never really liked the Wand I have. I was also a bit disappointed in Barenboim's BPO cycle. Tintner is very good indeed. I grew up a Jochum DG fan, and Schurict, but Karajan rules here I believe.
Of course with Bruckner there's always room for one more. I have the Celi on order so we'll see.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 25, 2014, 06:00:51 AM
Quote from: Ken B on February 24, 2014, 10:32:03 AM
Interesting there's so little Wanderlust here. Despite his current huge reputation I have never really liked the Wand I have. I was also a bit disappointed in Barenboim's BPO cycle. Tintner is very good indeed. I grew up a Jochum DG fan, and Schurict, but Karajan rules here I believe.
Of course with Bruckner there's always room for one more. I have the Celi on order so we'll see.

You're in the club!   0:)

Von Karajan of course is almost always in the club.  I have the Tintner CD of the Originalfassung (via Wm. Carragan) of the Second Symphony and am very pleased with it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on February 25, 2014, 11:41:33 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 25, 2014, 06:00:51 AM
You're in the club!   0:)

Von Karajan of course is almost always in the club.  I have the Tintner CD of the Originalfassung (via Wm. Carragan) of the Second Symphony and am very pleased with it.
Occasionally the orchestra is a bit rough on some of the Tintner. He's especially good on 1, 2,  and 3 I recall.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on February 25, 2014, 11:50:41 AM
Quote from: Ken B on February 25, 2014, 11:41:33 AM
Occasionally the orchestra is a bit rough on some of the Tintner. He's especially good on 1, 2,  and 3 I recall.

Different ears, different ears....Tintner's recordings of those three symphonies almost convinced me Bruckner was not worth listening to.  (He had some help from Colin Davis.)    It was Herreweghe's Seventh and Nagano's Fourth that made me think that perhaps there was something to this Anton guy after all.

My two favorites (overall) are Karajan and Wand.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on February 25, 2014, 12:04:17 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 25, 2014, 11:50:41 AM
Different ears, different ears....Tintner's recordings of those three symphonies almost convinced me Bruckner was not worth listening to.  (He had some help from Colin Davis.)    It was Herreweghe's Seventh and Nagano's Fourth that made me think that perhaps there was something to this Anton guy after all.

My two favorites (overall) are Karajan and Wand.
Well 2 is dreadful, 1 is not very good, and only with 3 do we get to worthwhile music, so that might be part of it.  :-\
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on February 25, 2014, 12:06:08 PM
Quote from: Ken B on February 25, 2014, 12:04:17 PM
Well 2 is dreadful, 1 is not very good, and only with 3 do we get to worthwhile music, so that might be part of it.  :-\

Karajan managed to make 1 and 2 into very worthwhile music (for me, at least)--one reason I rate him so high. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on February 25, 2014, 12:49:27 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 25, 2014, 12:06:08 PM
Karajan managed to make 1 and 2 into very worthwhile music (for me, at least)--one reason I rate him so high.
In truth I wouldn't know. I listened to the rest of the hvk cycle many times, but I stopped listening to one and two a while ago. Celi even omits them altogether.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on February 25, 2014, 02:14:29 PM
Quote from: Ken B on February 25, 2014, 12:04:17 PM
Well 2 is dreadful, 1 is not very good, and only with 3 do we get to worthwhile music, so that might be part of it.  :-\

You don't back up your subjective conclusions regarding B1 and B2. And Celi not conducting 1 and 2 is no excuse. What do YOU think.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on February 25, 2014, 02:18:58 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 25, 2014, 02:14:29 PM
You don't back up your subjective conclusions regarding B1 and B2. And Celi not conducting 1 and 2 is no excuse. What do YOU think.
I thought I said what I think. You want a moment by moment summary? I stopped listening to those two 7 or 8 years ago.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on February 25, 2014, 02:28:59 PM
Quote from: Ken B on February 25, 2014, 02:18:58 PM
I thought I said what I think. You want a moment by moment summary? I stopped listening to those two 7 or 8 years ago.

Yes. If you're going to call the B2 dreadful, you need to give me a more informed answer, especially if you're not qualifying your statement with "In my opinion...".

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on February 25, 2014, 02:39:24 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 25, 2014, 02:28:59 PM
Yes. If you're going to call the B2 dreadful, you need to give me a more informed answer, especially if you're not qualifying your statement with "In my opinion...".
In my opinion "in my opinion" is implicit when I state my opinion. I don't insist you share it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 25, 2014, 02:50:14 PM
Bruckner's first two symphonies have always been firm favourites of mine. The first because of its fire and impetuousness, the second because of its spaciousness and lyricism. Guilini is wonderful in the Second. For the First I have more contenders (Haitink, Jochum, Svetlanov, Neuman...) Yes, the first really Brucknerian symphony is No. 3. But its two predecessors already contain great music.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 25, 2014, 02:50:56 PM
Quote from: Ken B on February 24, 2014, 10:32:03 AMDespite his current huge reputation I have never really liked the Wand I have....but Karajan rules here I believe.

A few years ago I conducted a Deathmatch between the two conductors (Wand's Köln recordings vs the Karajan box). The winners:

1-Wand

2-Karajan

3-Karajan

4-Wand  (although if the competition had been against Karajan's EMI Fourth rather than the DG, Karajan would have won)

5-Tie

6-Karajan  (although neither is a favorite recording)

7- Karajan

8- Wand

9-Wand


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on February 25, 2014, 03:18:55 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 25, 2014, 02:50:56 PM
A few years ago I conducted a Deathmatch between the two conductors (Wand's Köln recordings vs the Karajan box). The winners:

1-Wand

2-Karajan

3-Karajan

4-Wand  (although if the competition had been against Karajan's EMI Fourth rather than the DG, Karajan would have won)

5-Tie

6-Karajan  (although neither is a favorite recording)

7- Karajan

8- Wand

9-Wand


Sarge
Which Wand I wonder? He made about 18 recordings of each! I have the Sony box, lots of NDR orchestra.
I do love hvk's 9
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on February 25, 2014, 09:14:23 PM
What about Jochum vs Karajan vs Wand Sarge?

I have to say the Karajan Bruckner box is pretty awesome.  Even if none of them stack up with the best, I don't feel that they are any duds and they are each compelling.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 26, 2014, 01:35:55 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 25, 2014, 09:14:23 PM
What about Jochum vs Karajan vs Wand Sarge?

Quote from: Ken B on February 25, 2014, 03:18:55 PM
Which Wand I wonder? He made about 18 recordings of each! I have the Sony box, lots of NDR orchestra.

[asin] B0042U2HLY[/asin]

VS

[asin]B001DCQI8W[/asin]

I did the comparison after someone asked which box would be the better choice (I was curious myself). They were only interested in those two cycles (I think they already had Jochum). The comparison increased my admiration for Wand. Based on casual listening years before I'd dismissed his Kölner RSO.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on February 26, 2014, 04:21:17 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 26, 2014, 01:35:55 AM
[asin] B0042U2HLY[/asin]

VS

[asin]B001DCQI8W[/asin]

I did the comparison after someone asked which box would be the better choice (I was curious myself). They were only interested in those two cycles (I think they already had Jochum). The comparison increased my admiration for Wand. Based on casual listening years before I'd dismissed his Kölner RSO.

Sarge
Wow. Thats my Wand. Based on comments I've read here you and I share a lot of common prefrences, so I will give the Wand another close look, especially in 8 and 9.
Bruckner overload, since I have Celi coming.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 26, 2014, 04:33:42 AM
Quote from: Ken B on February 26, 2014, 04:21:17 AM
Wow. Thats my Wand. Based on comments I've read here you and I share a lot of common prefrences, so I will give the Wand another close look, especially in 8 and 9.
Bruckner overload, since I have Celi coming.

In fact I do prefer Wand's later recordings (at least the ones I've heard, especially the Berlin 8th and his last 4th--coupled with the Schubert 5th) but that close listen to the Kölner RSO cycle did reveal some gems.

Of the eight Bruckner cycles I own, Celi and Maazel (live with SOBR) are my favorites.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on February 26, 2014, 04:38:42 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 26, 2014, 04:33:42 AM
In fact I do prefer Wand's later recordings (at least the ones I've heard, especially the Berlin 8th and his last 4th--coupled with the Schubert 5th) but that close listen to the Kölner RSO did reveal some gems.

Of the eight Bruckner cycles I own, Celi and Maazel (live with SOBR) are my favorites.

Sarge
Well there you go. Celi is only my sixth cycle ...
:'( :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on February 26, 2014, 05:39:40 PM
Quote from: Ken B on February 26, 2014, 04:21:17 AM
Wow. Thats my Wand. Based on comments I've read here you and I share a lot of common prefrences, so I will give the Wand another close look, especially in 8 and 9.
Bruckner overload, since I have Celi coming.

While you're in the relisten mode, may I suggest Herbie's recordings of the First and Second (specifically, the ones in the box Sarge posted)?

Let's see--Karajan, Wand,  Jochum (EMI), Celi, and the rest of my Bruckner is an assortment of individual recordings.  So you're two up on me.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 12:20:50 PM
Ok, Wand KRSO 8 ...

[asin]B0042U2HLY[/asin]

As my Amazon review says, the playing is ragged in places. The brass are often bleating. I also found no real mystery. Or rather I did: it's a mystery why people praise this set so highly! Not that it's bad; Wand keeps the lines quite clear, the harpist is great, the finale of the last mvmt is stately and grand. but there's a lot of Bruckner available now, I just think better is available. Both Jochums and  Karajan are reasonably priced.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 27, 2014, 03:09:39 PM
Quote from: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 12:20:50 PM
Ok, Wand KRSO 8 ...

[asin]B0042U2HLY[/asin]

As my Amazon review says, the playing is ragged in places. The brass are often bleating. I also found no real mystery. Or rather I did: it's a mystery why people praise this set so highly! Not that it's bad; Wand keeps the lines quite clear, the harpist is great, the finale of the last mvmt is stately and grand. but there's a lot of Bruckner available now, I just think better is available. Both Jochums and  Karajan are reasonably priced.

The Amazon reviewer named "Joe" of Sarajevo wrote:

Quotethere's nothing wrong with the orchestra, sir. If you check the original vinyl editions, you will find their sound glorious and the performance exquisite. Soundwise, the brass is much clearer and more prominent than the Barenboim/CSO Bruckner set. However, the CD transfer is not so great, and especially lacking in the lower frequencies.

It seems odd that a simple transfer from vinyl to CD would cause the brass section to seem less than competent.  Or...?

Many thanks for the comments!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: trung224 on February 27, 2014, 03:13:02 PM
Quote from: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 12:20:50 PM
Ok, Wand KRSO 8 ...

[asin]B0042U2HLY[/asin]

As my Amazon review says, the playing is ragged in places. The brass are often bleating. I also found no real mystery. Or rather I did: it's a mystery why people praise this set so highly! Not that it's bad; Wand keeps the lines quite clear, the harpist is great, the finale of the last mvmt is stately and grand. but there's a lot of Bruckner available now, I just think better is available. Both Jochums and  Karajan are reasonably priced.

   I think listener rates Wand  highly because of various live performance from his later years, especially ones with NDR Orchestra and BPO.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 04:08:54 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 27, 2014, 03:09:39 PM
The Amazon reviewer named "Joe" of Sarajevo wrote:

It seems odd that a simple transfer from vinyl to CD would cause the brass section to seem less than competent.  Or...?

Many thanks for the comments!
Well I've never heard the vinyl. But I have fond memories of how good the sound was on something at the time and then years later discovering, no not so much. We judge relative to what else there is at the time. So I'm skeptical, especially with RCA vinyl from the Dynagroove era.
Setting aside the comment about the vinyl he acknowledges the problem, just blames the remastering. As I say, I can't fix the blame, just note the problem.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on February 27, 2014, 04:27:39 PM
Quote from: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 04:08:54 PM
Well I've never heard the vinyl. But I have fond memories of how good the sound was on something at the time and then years later discovering, no not so much. We judge relative to what else there is at the time. So I'm skeptical, especially with RCA vinyl from the Dynagroove era.

These would have been Deutsche Harmonia Mundi pressings at the time.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 03, 2014, 12:10:58 PM
I have discovered that the score for the performing version of the Ninth Symphony's Finale by the Samale-Phillips-Cohrs-Mazzuca Team is available for 44 Euros at this company's website:

http://www.musikmph.de/musical_scores/composers_sales/scorelist_eng.htm (http://www.musikmph.de/musical_scores/composers_sales/scorelist_eng.htm)

All kinds of great stuff!


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on March 06, 2014, 07:05:03 AM
Quote from: Ken B on February 26, 2014, 04:21:17 AM
Wow. Thats my Wand. Based on comments I've read here you and I share a lot of common prefrences, so I will give the Wand another close look, especially in 8 and 9.
Bruckner overload, since I have Celi coming.

Can't get further from one another than early Wand and late Celi.

Love, love them both for exactly what they bring to Bruckner or, one might quip in Wand's case, for what he doesn't bring to Bruckner.

Just got Jochum B9, BRSO, 1955 sent to the office. Weee! But before that, more Berwald.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on March 19, 2014, 09:19:13 AM
Sarge, when you did your HvK-VS.-Wand tête-à-tête, how did HvK's Eighth hold up?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on March 19, 2014, 02:54:09 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 19, 2014, 09:19:13 AM
Sarge, when you did your HvK-VS.-Wand tête-à-tête, how did HvK's Eighth hold up?
One of the best 8th symphonies, Bruckner's.  >:D

My head to head was a rout. HvK easily. Gotta queue up my new Celi soon ...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: NJ Joe on April 23, 2014, 04:51:31 PM
I am a relative newcomer to Bruckner.  Although I've owned the Jochum EMI set for several years, I've never been able to get my head around it...or get a handle on it. Granted I only listened occasionally, but this was because nothing ever really grabbed me or made me want to listen again. My listening was haphazard...I was randomly choosing symphonies and not getting anywhere.

This was very similar to my initial attempts with Mahler.

I decided to try another set and purchased the Karajan DG, deciding to start with symphony number one.  I've now listened to it three consecutive days and finally - this morning - a breakthrough! I finally got it. A masterful performance of, to my ears, a powerfully beautiful work. Stormy first movement, intense slow movement, and I was taken aback by the amazingly powerful scherzo. Wow! Intense, blazing finale. I'm going to proceed in order, and, if this symphony is any indication of what's to come, I am really looking forward to this journey.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on April 23, 2014, 04:55:08 PM
Of the performances I have (including Jochum and Wand) Karajan is the only one who has ever gotten me to connect with any of the first three symphonies.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 23, 2014, 05:16:02 PM
Quote from: NJ Joe on April 23, 2014, 04:51:31 PM
I am relative newcomer to Bruckner.  Although I've owned the Jochum EMI set for several years, I've never been able to get my head around it...or get a handle on it. Granted I only listened occasionally, but this was because nothing ever really grabbed me or made me want to listen again. My listening was haphazard...I was randomly choosing symphonies and not getting anywhere.

This was very similar to my initial attempts with Mahler.

I decide to try another set and purchased the Karajan DG, deciding to start with symphony number one.  I've now listened to it three consecutive days and finally - this morning - a breakthrough! I finally got it.
A masterful performance of, to my ears, a powerfully beautiful work. Stormy first movement, intense slow movement, and I was taken aback by the amazingly powerful scherzo. Wow! Intense, blazing finale. I'm going to proceed in order, and, if this symphony is any indication of what's to come, I am really looking forward to this journey.

We welcome all into the Bruckner Universe, no matter the timing!  ;)

I have always thought the First Symphony to be one of the greatest "Firsts" by any composer.  And yes, the journey will be something to enjoy! 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: NJ Joe on April 23, 2014, 05:59:57 PM
Quote from: Cato on April 23, 2014, 05:16:02 PM
We welcome all into the Bruckner Universe, no matter the timing!  ;)

I have always thought the First Symphony to be one of the greatest "Firsts" by any composer.  And yes, the journey will be something to enjoy!

Thanks Cato, right now I'm thinking the same!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: NJ Joe on April 25, 2014, 05:26:10 PM
Today I listened to the 4th (which I'd previously heard a few times) and was blown away.  Will be listening again shortly.  I'd say my feet are firmly planted in Karajan's Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2014, 07:03:39 AM
Quote from: NJ Joe on April 23, 2014, 04:51:31 PMand I was taken aback by the amazingly powerful scherzo. Wow!

The man was incapable of composing a less than superb Scherzo.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2014, 07:16:31 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 19, 2014, 09:19:13 AM
Sarge, when you did your HvK-VS.-Wand tête-à-tête, how did HvK's Eighth hold up?

Wand won that round. It was partly due to the superior (to my ears) sonics of the RCA recording; partly due to my preferring both the 1958 (Berlin/EMI) and 1988 (Vienna) performances (it's the '75 in the box).

Neither that Wand nor that Karajan are among my favorite Eighths though. Top 10 would be:

Maazel/Berlin
Maazel/SOBR
Boulez/Vienna
Schuricht/Vienna
Szell/Cleveland
Celi/Munich
Paita/Philharmonic SO
Wand/Berlin
Karajan/Berlin EMI
Tintner/Ireland

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on April 27, 2014, 08:36:17 AM
Favourite 8ths:


Jochum Bamberger Symphoniker, 06.62
Jochum, Hamburg Phil (DGG, from '49)
Knappertsbusch Berlin (01.1951)
van Beinum, Concertgebouw, live from 06.1955 (Philips)
Wand in Cologne (RCA)
Asahina Osaka Phil (07.1994)
Celibidache MPO (live from Lisbon, a bit tauter than the official EMI disc)
Böhm WP (DGG)
Païta, National Phil
Steinberg, Boston Symphony (live)
Tennstedt in Boston or Berlin (Testament)
Schuricht WP (EMI)
Furtwängler BP (15.03.49)Maazel and the BP (EMI)
Rögner and the Brlin Radio
Haitink Amsterdam (both the '69 and '81 recordings)
Kubelik BRSO (1977, not the inferior Orfeo version from '63).

There are many other worthy versions, but they don't make it to the first rung of the ladder IMO

For the 'original' (first) version, I prefer Walter Weller and the BBC Orchestra of Wales
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: NJ Joe on April 27, 2014, 11:47:49 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2014, 07:16:31 AM
Wand won that round. It was partly due to the superior (to my ears) sonics of the RCA recording; partly due to my preferring both the 1958 (Berlin/EMI) and 1988 (Vienna) performances (it's the '75 in the box).

Neither that Wand nor that Karajan are among my favorite Eighths though. Top 10 would be:

Maazel/Berlin
Maazel/SOBR
Boulez/Vienna
Schuricht/Vienna
Szell/Cleveland
Celi/Munich
Paita/Philharmonic SO
Wand/Berlin
Karajan/Berlin EMI
Tintner/Ireland

Sarge

I recently ordered this from Amazon, based on the glowing reviews it received.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2014, 12:31:46 PM
Quote from: NJ Joe on April 27, 2014, 11:47:49 AM
I recently ordered this from Amazon, based on the glowing reviews it received.

I've seen some negative reviews too so I can't predict what you'll think of it. I prefer his EMI Bruckner (the Fourth and Seventh too).

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 27, 2014, 05:33:54 PM
Quote from: André on April 27, 2014, 08:36:17 AM
van Beinum, Concertgebouw, live from 06.1955 (Philips)

I'm glad you've gotten some good milage out of that one. I need to take it down from the shelf and give it a listen again soon.

It's also made its way back into print again along with other Bruckner from van Beinum:




[asin]B00GKI4TW6[/asin]

And while we're on the subject of the 8th, any thought's on Boulez's recording? It's one I admire a great deal.


 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on April 27, 2014, 06:18:46 PM
I like Boulez' conception. Timings are perfect, orchestral balances judged to a nicety. Everything of note is there. I just find it all a bit too calculated. And I still don't hear the awe at the nodal points in I, III and IV. It just flows along. Some degree of liberty with pauses, suspensions, prodding and holding is missing.

That's where Beinum scores: the episodes are tied perfectly together, whether it's through some acceleration of the pulse, some oh-so-subtle relaxation, some rythmic or agogic adjustment. That's the crucial 2-3% that I find Boulez misses. The Bruckner breathing. Bones, flesh and muscles are perfectly in sync with one another. But the heartbeat is too equal.

That being said, it's a very good recommendation, what with superlative playing, very good engineering and that honest, no nonsense, patient yet dramatic conducting. If I had continued my listing it would have been in the next half dozen reordings (out of some 60 I currently own).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on April 28, 2014, 04:12:29 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2014, 07:16:31 AM
Wand won that round. It was partly due to the superior (to my ears) sonics of the RCA recording; partly due to my preferring both the 1958 (Berlin/EMI) and 1988 (Vienna) performances (it's the '75 in the box).

Neither that Wand nor that Karajan are among my favorite Eighths though. Top 10 would be:

Maazel/Berlin
Maazel/SOBR
Boulez/Vienna
Schuricht/Vienna
Szell/Cleveland
Celi/Munich
Paita/Philharmonic SO
Wand/Berlin
Karajan/Berlin EMI
Tintner/Ireland

Sarge

Quote from: André on April 27, 2014, 06:18:46 PM
I like Boulez' conception. Timings are perfect, orchestral balances judged to a nicety. Everything of note is there. I just find it all a bit too calculated. And I still don't hear the awe at the nodal points in I, III and IV. It just flows along. Some degree of liberty with pauses, suspensions, prodding and holding is missing.

That's where Beinum scores: the episodes are tied perfectly together, whether it's through some acceleration of the pulse, some oh-so-subtle relaxation, some rythmic or agogic adjustment. That's the crucial 2-3% that I find Boulez misses. The Bruckner breathing. Bones, flesh and muscles are perfectly in sync with one another. But the heartbeat is too equal.

That being said, it's a very good recommendation, what with superlative playing, very good engineering and that honest, no nonsense, patient yet dramatic conducting. If I had continued my listing it would have been in the next half dozen reordings (out of some 60 I currently own).

Most interesting, thanks, gents!

Probably new since your last call, André, but I've become a Bruckner fan.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on April 28, 2014, 04:55:56 AM
Well, I'll be ! :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on April 28, 2014, 05:11:52 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 28, 2014, 04:12:29 AM
Probably new since your last call, André, but I've become a Bruckner fan.

*pounds la table!*  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: springrite on April 28, 2014, 05:29:01 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 28, 2014, 04:12:29 AM

Probably new since your last call, André, but I've become a Bruckner fan.

In a limited way, kind of like me...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2014, 05:30:07 AM
Quote from: springrite on April 28, 2014, 05:29:01 AM
In a limited way, kind of like me...

Why limited?

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: springrite on April 28, 2014, 05:46:22 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2014, 05:30:07 AM
Why limited?

Sarge

Well, I am only love Furtwangler's Bruckner and a few odd other recordings.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2014, 05:58:10 AM
Quote from: springrite on April 28, 2014, 05:46:22 AM
Well, I am only love Furtwangler's Bruckner and a few odd other recordings.

I see...

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on April 28, 2014, 07:24:41 AM
I should get some choral Bruckner as I only have the symphonies on disc.

What do the good people here think I should get?

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GQ6.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GQ6/?tag=goodmusicguideco) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000CE7FN.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000CE7FN/?tag=goodmusicguideco) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000002ZFX.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002ZFX/?tag=goodmusicguideco)   (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000J9H8.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000J9H8/?tag=goodmusicguideco)


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 28, 2014, 07:27:26 AM
Quote from: North Star on April 28, 2014, 07:24:41 AM
I should get some choral Bruckner as I only have the symphonies on disc.

What do the good people here think I should get?

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GQ6.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GQ6/?tag=goodmusicguideco) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000CE7FN.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000CE7FN/?tag=goodmusicguideco) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000002ZFX.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002ZFX/?tag=goodmusicguideco)   (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000J9H8.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000J9H8/?tag=goodmusicguideco)

I recently purchased the Best and Jochum sets, and I prefer the Best set by quite a bit. The Mass No. 2 is brilliantly recorded, worth the money alone.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on April 28, 2014, 07:33:50 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 28, 2014, 07:27:26 AM
I recently purchased the Best and Jochum sets, and I prefer the Best set by quite a bit. The Mass No. 2 is brilliantly recorded, worth the money alone.
Thanks, Greg - The Best does look very nice, and I would think the sound quality is not a small matter in this music.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on April 28, 2014, 07:36:36 AM
I've got the Barenboim, and I am considering the Best  0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: springrite on April 28, 2014, 07:46:11 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 28, 2014, 07:36:36 AM
I've got the Barenboim, and I am considering the Best  0:)
Yes, I have the Furtwangler Light set as well.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on April 28, 2014, 08:11:43 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 28, 2014, 07:27:26 AM
I recently purchased the Best and Jochum sets, and I prefer the Best set by quite a bit. The Mass No. 2 is brilliantly recorded, worth the money alone.

Hey Greg!  :)

I have this recording of Mass No. 3 in F minor, and it is outstanding!  :)

[asin]B001BBSE32[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on April 28, 2014, 08:14:03 AM
I'll bet it is, Ray!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on April 28, 2014, 08:16:27 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on April 28, 2014, 08:11:43 AM
Hey Greg!  :)

I have this recording of Mass No. 3 in F minor, and it is outstanding!  :)
Quote from: karlhenning on April 28, 2014, 08:14:03 AM
I'll bet it is, Ray!
+1
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on April 28, 2014, 08:30:46 AM
Quote from: North Star on April 28, 2014, 07:24:41 AM
I should get some choral Bruckner as I only have the symphonies on disc.

What do the good people here think I should get?

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GQ6.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GQ6/?tag=goodmusicguideco) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000CE7FN.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000CE7FN/?tag=goodmusicguideco) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000002ZFX.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002ZFX/?tag=goodmusicguideco)   (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000J9H8.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000J9H8/?tag=goodmusicguideco)

From the LISTEN Magazine article on Masses in the last issue, (http://www.listenmusicmag.com/feature/mass-communication.php (http://www.listenmusicmag.com/feature/mass-communication.php))

this about Bruckner:

QuoteThe greatest composer of masses since Haydn, and one of the most devout, was Anton Bruckner (1824 –1896). Bucking the rising trend of turning Masses from utility works solely meant to fulfill their function of celebrating the glory of God towards one of individualistic artistic expression, Bruckner wrote only toward the former end. In fact, the trained teacher, organist, and largely misunderstood composer even probably wrote that end every time he wrote anything at all, including his Symphonies.

Few composers were more pre-destined and uniquely suited to writing masses than Bruckner. His symphonies, unrestrained by textual and liturgical considerations are the more innovative, soaring works. They offer greater melodic freedom, more natural force. More of that humble audacity. But within the restriction of the mass, the text of which was sacrosanct to him, Bruckner found his voice and the epitome of his divine simplicity. His masses are to the point, tempered, impassioned, but innocent and filled with pure beauty and truth.

It's hard to speak about Bruckner passionately without drifting towards the cliché of the simple, honest, devout man, the village school-teacher on bended knee before God the Almighty, ever self-effacing. The Masses make it especially hard. A Bishop in Linz is said to have told Bruckner — as the highest compliment — that he was unable to pray while Bruckner played the organ: Bruckner's playing was a prayer that naturally superseded all other prayers. Listening with open mind and eager eras to the F minor Mass, you will know what that bishop meant and why not knowing Bruckner's masses means not knowing Bruckner.

The recommendation is the Jochum... which I like... but I've always found these take time to appreciate -- which is also why I wasn't immediately hooked on the Herreweghe, for all its undeniable qualities.

Don't deny yourself Helgoland (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000006PL6/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000006PL6&linkCode=as2&tag=goodmusicguide-20) if you want Brucknerian choral goodness!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on April 28, 2014, 08:41:25 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 28, 2014, 08:30:46 AM
From the LISTEN Magazine article on Masses in the last issue, (http://www.listenmusicmag.com/feature/mass-communication.php (http://www.listenmusicmag.com/feature/mass-communication.php))

this about Bruckner:

The recommendation is the Jochum... which I like... but I've always found these take time to appreciate -- which is also why I wasn't immediately hooked on the Herreweghe, for all its undeniable qualities.

Don't deny yourself Helgoland (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000006PL6/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000006PL6&linkCode=as2&tag=goodmusicguide-20) if you want Brucknerian choral goodness!
Cheers, Jens!
I'll listen to Helgoland next, then.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on April 28, 2014, 09:56:31 AM
There's a semi-cheap (also called 'mid-price') set of discs on the Berlin Classics label that has been reissued by Brilliant. It includes the best Mass in E minor and in F minor, and the best Te Deum I know of. The brilliant conductor is that excellent brucknerian Heinz Rögner (whose superb set of symphonies Brilliant has also reissued, making it one of the best integral sets available (*)).

Best is very good, but the very best is Rögner. Mass no 1 is from an unknown quantity (Nicol Matt). But with 2 outstanding discs out of a possible 3, I have no hesitation in recommending that set.

Also, there is a very good Rilling disc of the Mass in F minor. For the adventurous, Celibidache has produced an incense-laden, heavily perfumed and grave F minor Mass. Sumptuously played and sung, and beautifully recorded, too.

(*) The Rögner set of symphonies is really only 4-9 by Rögner, with the Berlin Radio S.O., digital recordings hailing from the eighties. It is completed by the First under Neumann (possibly the best ever issued), an old mono Second symphony by that stalwart Franz Konwitschny, and a 1963 Third by veteran brucknerian Kurt Sanderling).  Heartily recommended - you wil have read about it first on this very page !  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on April 28, 2014, 10:12:55 AM
Thanks, mon cher, for making this thread yet more perilous for me  ;)   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on April 28, 2014, 10:51:31 AM
Quote from: André on April 28, 2014, 09:56:31 AM

Best is very good, but the very best is Rögner.

Oh, that turn of phrase alone was worth the thread! Very nice!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on April 28, 2014, 11:54:28 AM
When it comes to Helgoland, make a special place for the incandescent, granitic, slow-moving pillars of Heaven version by Wyn Morris. It is generally coupled with that equally improbable choral masterpiece, Wagner's Das Liebesmahl von der Apostel (the 'Love Feast of the Apostles', describing the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the 70 in the High Chamber). All other versions I have heard take things up to unbrucknerian speeds, thereby negating the messiaenesque, 'Hallleluia-ing' grandeur of the recap and coda.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on April 28, 2014, 12:13:56 PM
Quote from: André on April 28, 2014, 09:56:31 AM
There's a semi-cheap (also called 'mid-price') set of discs on the Berlin Classics label that has been reissued by Brilliant. It includes the best Mass in E minor and in F minor, and the best Te Deum I know of. The brilliant conductor is that excellent brucknerian Heinz Rögner (whose superb set of symphonies Brilliant has also reissued, making it one of the best integral sets available (*)).

Best is very good, but the very best is Rögner. Mass no 1 is from an unknown quantity (Nicol Matt). But with 2 outstanding discs out of a possible 3, I have no hesitation in recommending that set.

Also, there is a very good Rilling disc of the Mass in F minor. For the adventurous, Celibidache has produced an incense-laden, heavily perfumed and grave F minor Mass. Sumptuously played and sung, and beautifully recorded, too.

(*) The Rögner set of symphonies is really only 4-9 by Rögner, with the Berlin Radio S.O., digital recordings hailing from the eighties. It is completed by the First under Neumann (possibly the best ever issued), an old mono Second symphony by that stalwart Franz Konwitschny, and a 1963 Third by veteran brucknerian Kurt Sanderling).  Heartily recommended - you wil have read about it first on this very page !  ;)
Quote from: André on April 28, 2014, 11:54:28 AM
When it comes to Helgoland, make a special place for the incandescent, granitic, slow-moving pillars of Heaven version by Wyn Morris. It is generally coupled with that equally improbable choral masterpiece, Wagner's Das Liebesmahl von der Apostel (the 'Love Feast of the Apostles', describing the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the 70 in the High Chamber). All other versions I have heard take things up to unbrucknerian speeds, thereby negating the messiaenesque, 'Hallleluia-ing' grandeur of the recap and coda.
Thanks for the recommendations, André!

I'll probably get this Rögner set. :)
https://www.youtube.com/v/MQHKmS0kifg  (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00BX2JEII.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00BX2JEII/?tag=goodmusicguideco)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 28, 2014, 03:45:42 PM
All things Jochum were my keys to Bruckner, including the Masses and Motets.

Once it was not possible (or not easy at least) to find the E minor Mass, but now that is over!

Helgoland allows one a glimpse of what kind of drama the chorus in a Bruckner opera would offer us!  At times I hear the sounds of the future Busoni in this work.  And yet, Bruckner is present in every note, not the past of Wagner, not the future of Busoni, but the past, present, and future of Bruckner.

Imagine Bruckner composing an opera on the Book of Enoch or something similar!   ??? >:D 0:)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Symphony #0 at Toledo's Catholic Cathedral
Post by: Cato on May 10, 2014, 05:15:58 AM
On May 9th Mrs. Cato and I were at the Rosary Cathedral for the Toledo Symphony's performance of the Symphony #0, an undoubtedly rare event.  About 10 years ago the orchestra began a tradition of playing a Bruckner symphony in the cathedral, and every time I have gone, they have turned in excellent work. 

The acoustics last night were more than excellent for the opening of the work: I was captivated immediately by how the mysterious opening was heightened by the distant echoing in the sanctuary.  The second movement had some gorgeous playing by the principal oboist and the French horns, and the brass did their work most admirably for the finale.

All in all, Stefan Sanderling (a minimalist conductor who saw no need to flail around to get what he wanted) and the orchestra made a fine case that Die Nullte is certainly much more than zero!  Perhaps Symphony 2.5?

And the 1,000 + member audience  :o :o :o was determined to clap after every movement, so great was the response: in the end, an instant standing ovation was given (although right now in increasingly egalitarian  ::) America, there is a tendency to give everyone a standing ovation).

In this case it was deserved!

Interesting that there are not more CD's of #0 in print!

And I did not see GMG member Allan in the bass section: a pity!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on May 10, 2014, 05:30:03 AM
Excellent in all particulars, save only in our Allan's absence!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Symphony #0 at Toledo's Catholic Cathedral
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 10, 2014, 07:10:39 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 10, 2014, 05:15:58 AM
Interesting that there are not more CD's of #0 in print!

I agree. It's a wonderful symphony. I don't understand its relative neglect. I've only seven in my collection but they cover a wide interpretive range, including the Celi-like Maazel and Blunier (at least in the first movement). The Maazel Die Nullte is typical of his style throughout his cycle: a slower than normal first movement; a faster than normal slow movement.

Maazel/SOBR                             18:25  11:39  7:54  10:49
Blunier/Beethoven O Bonn          18:08  14:51  7:01  10:07
Chailly/DSO Berlin                      15:15  13:47  6:47  10:36
Barenboim/Chicago                    15:13  12:43  6:49  11:03
Venzago/Tapiola Sinfonietta        14:41  12:16  7:07    9:52
Tintner/NSO Ireland                   14:32  14:29  7:14  11:10
Skrowaczewski/Saarbrück RSO   13:53   13:21  6:44  10:56


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 10, 2014, 05:14:35 PM
Many thanks to Sarge for the information on the CD's.  Outside of a radio broadcast on the local classical station, last night's performance (as far as I know) is not connected to any commercially available recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 19, 2014, 03:14:42 PM
Symphony no 1: Gewandhaus Orchester, Leipzig under Vaclav Neumann. Originally Berlin classics, also part of the integral set newly issued on Brilliant. This is one of the major entries in the First sweepstakes. Not that there are that many. This cinderella among Bruckner's symphonies has not really been favoured by conductors over the years. There are two quite different versions when it comes to the orchestration (the text is basically identical). The Linz version is the earlier (original) one, while the Vienna revision, dating from Bruckner's last years boasts a more coruscating, denser orchestration. I much prefer the Linz version, with its clearer outlines, sharper contours. Especially with an orchestra of the caliber of the Leipzig Gewandhaus, with its dark, heavy bass string sections and saturnine low winds and brasses. Despite somewhat coarse sonics, this is a distinguished interpretation, full of fire and brimstone (listen to the cascading brass orations in the Finale).

Symphony no 1:COA, Bernard Haitink. Philips Classics. This was my first ever First, back in the vinyl days. Speaking of vinyls, I find that the Concertgebouw sound was much more enveloping and coulourful back then. On cd it sounds pristine and clear, but violins and trumpets dominate, with a much brighter overall sound picture. In asny case, it was and remains my favourite version among all those I have heard. The orchestra boast a mixture of fire-in-the-belly and elegance that is just right for this very classical work. A bit more impulsive than Neumann and adumbrated as it is with a more expert brass section, it scintillates and packs a mean rythmic punch. A classic disc.

Symphony no 2: Bruckner Orchester Linz, Kurt Eichhhorn (Camerata label). The composite 1876 version.
Eichhorn recorded this symphony in 4 different textual versions. Among these, there is basicslly two choices to be made: the original, more discursive and diffuse 1872 text, and one of the various later revisions (main difference among those: the choice of a horn vs clarinet in the concluding measures of the slow movement). There is also the order of the two middle movements, a lesser concern (anybody so inclined may make the choice of scherzo before andante or vice versa).

Very good interpretation from a provincial but fluent orchestra and an expert, genial, no-nonsense conductor.

Symphony no 2: NDR Orchestra (Hamburg), Herbert Blomstedt (live 2009, various labels). Blomstedt has long championed the longer original version (the finale in particular being more varied and diffuse in the succession of moods and episodes). Blomstedt programmed the second here in Montreal à few years ago and the results were spectacular. Contrary to the verbose, lost-in-the-thickets Tintner, this is beautifully, elegantly, expertly and powerfully played and interpreted. The best case there is of the original version.

If one prefers the more concise later text, there are beautiful, powerful versions by Stein, Karajan, Zender and Haitink. On the left side of those is a furious, impatient Andreae, while on their right stands the apollonian vistas brought forth by Giulini.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on May 20, 2014, 02:24:10 AM
Coming soon: Bruckner 2 with Giulini ! !

(https://scontent-a-vie.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/p526x296/10339640_10152174252947989_492803209448335213_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 20, 2014, 02:31:08 PM
Warmly recommended. Unexpected choice of repertoire with all the special qualities one looks for in a Giulini recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 20, 2014, 03:43:58 PM
Quote from: André on May 19, 2014, 03:14:42 PM
Symphony no 1: Gewandhaus Orchester, Leipzig under Vaclav Neumann. Originally Berlin classics, also part of the integral set newly issued on Brilliant. This is one of the major entries in the First sweepstakes. Not that there are that many. This cinderella among Bruckner's symphonies has not really been favoured by conductors over the years. There are two quite different versions when it comes to the orchestration (the text is basically identical). The Linz version is the earlier (original) one, while the Vienna revision, dating from Bruckner's last years boasts a more coruscating, denser orchestration. I much prefer the Linz version, with its clearer outlines, sharper contours. Especially with an orchestra of the caliber of the Leipzig Gewandhaus, with its dark, heavy bass string sections and saturnine low winds and brasses. Despite somewhat coarse sonics, this is a distinguished interpretation, full of fire and brimstone (listen to the cascading brass orations in the Finale).

Symphony no 1:COA, Bernard Haitink. Philips Classics. This was my first ever First, back in the vinyl days. Speaking of vinyls, I find that the Concertgebouw sound was much more enveloping and coulourful back then. On cd it sounds pristine and clear, but violins and trumpets dominate, with a much brighter overall sound picture. In asny case, it was and remains my favourite version among all those I have heard. The orchestra boast a mixture of fire-in-the-belly and elegance that is just right for this very classical work. A bit more impulsive than Neumann and adumbrated as it is with a more expert brass section, it scintillates and packs a mean rythmic punch. A classic disc.

Symphony no 2: Bruckner Orchester Linz, Kurt Eichhhorn (Camerata label). The composite 1876 version.
Eichhorn recorded this symphony in 4 different textual versions. Among these, there is basicslly two choices to be made: the original, more discursive and diffuse 1872 text, and one of the various later revisions (main difference among those: the choice of a horn vs clarinet in the concluding measures of the slow movement). There is also the order of the two middle movements, a lesser concern (anybody so inclined may make the choice of scherzo before andante or vice versa).

Very good interpretation from a provincial but fluent orchestra and an expert, genial, no-nonsense conductor.

Symphony no 2: NDR Orchestra (Hamburg), Herbert Blomstedt (live 2009, various labels). Blomstedt has long championed the longer original version (the finale in particular being more varied and diffuse in the succession of moods and episodes). Blomstedt programmed the second here in Montreal à few years ago and the results were spectacular. Contrary to the verbose, lost-in-the-thickets Tintner, this is beautifully, elegantly, expertly and powerfully played and interpreted. The best case there is of the original version.

If one prefers the more concise later text, there are beautiful, powerful versions by Stein, Karajan, Zender and Haitink. On the left side of those is a furious, impatient Andreae, while on their right stands the apollonian vistas brought forth by Giulini.

Many thanks to Andre' for these excellent reviews! 

Yes, after resisting for too long, I gave the original version of the Second a chance and was quite happy with it: I have the Tintner version, so you have made me curious about this one conducted by Blomstedt!

Is the Giulini recording of the original or of the later revised edition? 

Hard to believe that Giulini would be 100 years old this month!  He never seemed to age!  I guess when record companies keep using the same pictures of him in turtle-neck sweaters...   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: NJ Joe on May 20, 2014, 04:00:22 PM
Quote from: André on May 19, 2014, 03:14:42 PM

Symphony no 1:COA, Bernard Haitink. Philips Classics. This was my first ever First, back in the vinyl days. Speaking of vinyls, I find that the Concertgebouw sound was much more enveloping and coulourful back then. On cd it sounds pristine and clear, but violins and trumpets dominate, with a much brighter overall sound picture. In asny case, it was and remains my favourite version among all those I have heard. The orchestra boast a mixture of fire-in-the-belly and elegance that is just right for this very classical work. A bit more impulsive than Neumann and adumbrated as it is with a more expert brass section, it scintillates and packs a mean rythmic punch. A classic disc.


Hello Andre, thank you for the reviews. You never forget your first! I've been thinking about buying this entire set. Can I get your thoughts on it? 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 20, 2014, 06:48:57 PM
Cato: Giulini plays the later version. There are basically 2 editions of it. Not much difference between them, except for the reision that replaced the horn coda to the slow movement (deemeed too hard to play) with a clarinet alternative. Both are beautiful in their own right. Today, horns can play it without intonation problems.

Joe: that's entirely true , the first ever never leaves your memory. It's there to be rekindled at the slightest provocation... Right now I am listening to my 'first ever' Manfred  (Abravanel and the Utah Symphony back in the days of Candide Vinyls) and finding all the familiar signposts in place. Because of that recording I have come to love the work and like recordings that had different qualities. But then, the cd of that Abravanel interpretation (a new acquisition) was almost like an electroshock. It had all - and more - of what I love about the work than anything else I recall hearing.

The same is true of that Haitink First. It could be sentimental, but I honestly think that it has it all: orchestral differentiation (virtuosity is a meaningless term), conductorial authority, engineering that still packs a mean punch and an audible relish of that work's originality and sauciness.

This is how I would rate the Haitink interpretations+orchestral execution+engineering: on a scale of 5

0 - 4.5  . Reference : Marriner
1 - 5. Other reference : Neumann
2 - 4.5. References: Stein and Zender, Giulini
3 - 3.5. This is the first recorded version of the longer finale text by Oeser. It is also one of the earliest performances in the set. Its is excellent and powerful.It's just that there are so many versions available (or the shorter Nowak).
4 - Same remark. It dates back from 1965, and has been beaten to the post many times. Still, it boasts the  excellent orchestral execution of the COA.
5 - 4. Very good version, excellently played. Others have cast a much stronger shadow (fast: Suitner and Gielen) - slow: Klemperer or Celibidahe). From a concert hall perspective it is excellent.
6 - 4.5. A superb version. This cinderella among Bruckner symphonies has had a clutch of magnificent recordings - deserving of its own thread IMHO.
7 - 3.5. A later 1979 recording exists (it is better). Still, this early one is quite good in a purely symphonic way.
8 - 5. Sooooooo many recordings of the work exist. Another subject worthy of its own thread. Another 'first' and quite honestly, it holds up its own among the very, very best ever made. It is the best of all the (many) recordings Haitink made of the Eight.
9 - 3.5. The latter 1981 recording is better realized. This is a sequel to the van Beinum Amsterdam, in which Haitink probably played (as violinist in that orchestra's section).

In short: you get superb  orchestral playing, an audible interpretational link to the great Bruckner tradition of the Amsterdam orchestra, conducting that is always alert, energetic yet never excited, and great engineering (except for 4, 7 and 9, which are merely 'very good').
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on May 21, 2014, 07:31:47 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 20, 2014, 02:24:10 AM
Coming soon: Bruckner 2 with Giulini ! !

(https://scontent-a-vie.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/p526x296/10339640_10152174252947989_492803209448335213_n.jpg)

Yes, the 1877 Version.

Just got my copy... but have been too busy to listen to it properly... so I haven't listened to it at all, yet.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: NJ Joe on May 21, 2014, 02:38:18 PM
Quote from: André on May 20, 2014, 06:48:57 PM
Joe: that's entirely true , the first ever never leaves your memory. It's there to be rekindled at the slightest provocation... Right now I am listening to my 'first ever' Manfred  (Abravanel and the Utah Symphony back in the days of Candide Vinyls) and finding all the familiar signposts in place. Because of that recording I have come to love the work and like recordings that had different qualities. But then, the cd of that Abravanel interpretation (a new acquisition) was almost like an electroshock. It had all - and more - of what I love about the work than anything else I recall hearing.

The same is true of that Haitink First. It could be sentimental, but I honestly think that it has it all: orchestral differentiation (virtuosity is a meaningless term), conductorial authority, engineering that still packs a mean punch and an audible relish of that work's originality and sauciness.

This is how I would rate the Haitink interpretations+orchestral execution+engineering: on a scale of 5

0 - 4.5  . Reference : Marriner
1 - 5. Other reference : Neumann
2 - 4.5. References: Stein and Zender, Giulini
3 - 3.5. This is the first recorded version of the longer finale text by Oeser. It is also one of the earliest performances in the set. Its is excellent and powerful.It's just that there are so many versions available (or the shorter Nowak).
4 - Same remark. It dates back from 1965, and has been beaten to the post many times. Still, it boasts the  excellent orchestral execution of the COA.
5 - 4. Very good version, excellently played. Others have cast a much stronger shadow (fast: Suitner and Gielen) - slow: Klemperer or Celibidahe). From a concert hall perspective it is excellent.
6 - 4.5. A superb version. This cinderella among Bruckner symphonies has had a clutch of magnificent recordings - deserving of its own thread IMHO.
7 - 3.5. A later 1979 recording exists (it is better). Still, this early one is quite good in a purely symphonic way.
8 - 5. Sooooooo many recordings of the work exist. Another subject worthy of its own thread. Another 'first' and quite honestly, it holds up its own among the very, very best ever made. It is the best of all the (many) recordings Haitink made of the Eight.
9 - 3.5. The latter 1981 recording is better realized. This is a sequel to the van Beinum Amsterdam, in which Haitink probably played (as violinist in that orchestra's section).

In short: you get superb  orchestral playing, an audible interpretational link to the great Bruckner tradition of the Amsterdam orchestra, conducting that is always alert, energetic yet never excited, and great engineering (except for 4, 7 and 9, which are merely 'very good').

Thank you so much Andre, for taking the time to post your detailed reviews.  I enjoy Haitink and the COA in every recording I own.  Much appreciated!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: trung224 on May 23, 2014, 02:41:08 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 20, 2014, 02:24:10 AM
Coming soon: Bruckner 2 with Giulini ! !

(https://scontent-a-vie.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/p526x296/10339640_10152174252947989_492803209448335213_n.jpg)
Jlaurson, can you provide some information about this performance? Is it the same performance on Testament CD?
Thanks
trung224
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on May 23, 2014, 06:41:03 AM
Quote from: trung224 on May 23, 2014, 02:41:08 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 20, 2014, 02:24:10 AM
Coming soon: Bruckner 2 with Giulini ! !

(https://scontent-a-vie.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/p526x296/10339640_10152174252947989_492803209448335213_n.jpg)
Jlaurson, can you provide some information about this performance? Is it the same performance on Testament CD?
Thanks
trung224

Here's a bit more info, Trung:

Yes, it is the same performance. But it isn't the same recording. Testament went to the master and put it on CD. This time around they took the master, digitally copied it, cleaned it up, remastered it, and then put it on CD. I haven't the Testament issue around, so I can't comment on the difference in sound... but the people who published it just told me that they would have thought it rather pointless, if they had just slapped a version of the B2 on the market that was already around -- and that taking care with the remastering was an essential part of releasing the disc.

Cheers,

jfl

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Artem on May 24, 2014, 06:51:36 PM
My first Brucner's symphony, that I'd listened to tonight. I wonder if it may be considered a good introduction to his symphonic compositions? I thought it was OK.

[asin]B000NPCMJE[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on May 24, 2014, 06:54:55 PM
Quote from: Artem on May 24, 2014, 06:51:36 PM
My first Brucner's symphony, that I'd listened to tonight. I wonder if it may be considered a good introduction to his symphonic compositions? I thought it was OK.

[asin]B000NPCMJE[/asin]

Artem!
I have not heard this specific recording, but I generally stay away from Rattle's renditions (of anything). For a first Bruckner exposure I would probably go with Jochum (probably 4 or 6), but I am sure many of the Bruckner "heads" here will bring on an avalanche of suggestions.   :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on May 24, 2014, 07:07:00 PM
Quote from: Artem on May 24, 2014, 06:51:36 PM
My first Brucner's symphony, that I'd listened to tonight. I wonder if it may be considered a good introduction to his symphonic compositions? I thought it was OK.

[asin]B000NPCMJE[/asin]
4 is absolutely the place to start, or 7. I don't know that recording, but unlike a certain piscine I like Rattle in general. For Bruckner 4 or 7 the following are all reliable
Karajan
Jochum
Skrowaczevsky
Tintner
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Artem on May 24, 2014, 07:52:51 PM
I'll keep it in mind to check out the 7th Symphony. Thank you.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: snyprrr on May 25, 2014, 10:40:01 AM
I probably am more Bruckner than Mahler, but I understand how different musics mix. I find the Denisov Symphony to be something of this mix (though, there's no real "human" music here- it's all angels speaking).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: snyprrr on May 25, 2014, 10:40:58 AM
haha, I posted in DSCH, Mahler and Brukner, and now I have the mods on my tail. Catch me if you can!!!!!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on May 27, 2014, 12:49:27 PM
Just listened to Bruckner: Symphony No 7       Wiener Philharmoniker/Giulini

Excellent indeed! I think I am heading for a severe Bruckner phase. This is really a marvelous recording and I am enjoying it utterly! Blown away!  Glorious! Glorious! Glorious!    :P :P :P

from
[asin] B00IERAFTW[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 27, 2014, 01:13:02 PM
 
A
Quote from: snyprrr on May 25, 2014, 10:40:58 AM
haha, I posted in DSCH, Mahler and Bruckner, and now I have the mods on my tail.



B

(though, there's no real "human" music here- it's all angels speaking)


A

You should have salt on your tail!  ;)

B

With Bruckner, that is always true, although his angels are not all rainbows and unicorns: more like the angels in the Book of Enoch!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on May 27, 2014, 01:39:43 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 27, 2014, 12:49:27 PM
Just listened to Bruckner: Symphony No 7       Wiener Philharmoniker/Giulini

Excellent indeed! I think I am heading for a severe Bruckner phase. This is really a marvelous recording and I am enjoying it utterly! Blown away!  Glorious! Glorious! Glorious!    :P :P :P

from
[asin] B00IERAFTW[/asin]

+1  Poisson de lune!  :)

This, I believe, was the recording that turned the corner for me in appreciating the 7th Symphony.

More than appreciate, as it has been my favourite symphony of any composer for at least 3 or so years.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on May 27, 2014, 01:49:11 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 27, 2014, 01:39:43 PM
+1  Poisson de lune!  :)

This, I believe, was the recording that turned the corner for me in appreciating the 7th Symphony.

More than appreciate, as it has been my favourite symphony of any composer for at least 3 or so years.  :)

Well, that is indeed high praise!!!!  No wonder I am so taken by this recording.  :)
Hmm, you inspired me to make a change in my avatar....
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 27, 2014, 03:13:56 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 24, 2014, 06:54:55 PM
Artem!
I have not heard this specific recording, but I generally stay away from Rattle's renditions (of anything). For a first Bruckner exposure I would probably go with Jochum (probably 4 or 6), but I am sure many of the Bruckner "heads" here will bring on an avalanche of suggestions.   :)

Oh yes!  Good old Eugen Jochum is an excellent starting point of comparison!

Concerning Simon Rattle: I have the completed Ninth Symphony with him conducting the Berlin Philharmonic, and am most satisfied with it!  The first movement is especially electrifying!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 27, 2014, 03:17:23 PM
That Giulini 7th is indeed a marvel of lyricism, golden-hued orchestral playing and magisterial coducting. Highly recommended to all the poor souls out there who are still scratching dust, Scarlett-O'Hara-like, in search of  musical nourishment.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on May 27, 2014, 04:43:28 PM
Quote from: André on May 27, 2014, 03:17:23 PM
That Giulini 7th is indeed a marvel of lyricism, golden-hued orchestral playing and magisterial coducting. Highly recommended to all the poor souls out there who are still scratching dust, Scarlett-O'Hara-like, in search of  musical nourishment.

Ahh, such poetry André! Almost.....errrr....Bruckneresque...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on May 27, 2014, 04:45:11 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 27, 2014, 04:43:28 PM
Ahh, such poetry André! Almost.....errrr....Bruckneresque...

;D  We only need a large arch and cathedral organ to complete the Brucknerian stereotype imagery!  :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 27, 2014, 05:32:10 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 27, 2014, 05:38:48 PM
Two editions of the classic van Beinum recording with the Concertgebouw Orchestra.

The first one is from the 4 cd set recently issued by Decca, presumably culled from the master tapes. Can't complain. Very nice except for a touch of overload when the double basses  furiously scratch their thing ffff.

The second is an LP transcript with added 'discreet stereophonic effect' from Pierre Paquin's Haydn House Records. Well, I have to say I found the sonic image definitely more solid and lifelike. Whether it's by virtue of a mint LP source or some technical trickery I can't say. And whatever 'stereophony' there is is more like a clearer, slightly ampler sound stage than any directional left-right effect (I didn't detect any of the latter).

In any case, kudos to HH for a remarkable job at the service of one of the Top Five recordings ever of the Eight. Definitely the version to own of this classic recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on May 27, 2014, 05:42:50 PM
Quote from: André on May 27, 2014, 05:38:48 PM
Two editions of the classic van Beinum recording with the Concertgebouw Orchestra.

The first one is from the 4 cd set recently isse=ued by Decca, presumably culled from the master tapes. Can't complain. Very nice extept for a touch of overload when the double basses  furiously scratch their thing ffff.


I am waiting for the van Beinum cds in the mail - these are the 2 double cds on the Eloquence label, right?   Looking forward to listening to them.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 27, 2014, 05:44:23 PM
It's a 4 cd set and definitely worth the price. I haven't heard the ninth yet, which I also happen to have in the Haydn House edition.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on May 27, 2014, 05:47:35 PM
Quote from: André on May 27, 2014, 05:44:23 PM
It's a 4 cd set and definitely worth the price. I haven't heard the nonth yet, which I also happen to have in the Haydn House edition.

You are right, my mistake - for some reason they were represented by two double-deckers in my mind's eye.   :-[
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 27, 2014, 06:00:20 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 27, 2014, 04:45:11 PM
;D  We only need a large arch and cathedral organ to complete the Brucknerian stereotype imagery!  :D

Ah, the good old days!

(http://fischer.hosting.paran.com/music/dgg-lps/dgg-images/26134597_303x300.jpg)

(http://fischer.hosting.paran.com/music/dgg-lps/dgg-images/24877216_300x300.jpg)

(http://fischer.hosting.paran.com/music/dgg-lps/dgg-images/26525387_308x300.jpg)





Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on May 27, 2014, 06:22:19 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 27, 2014, 06:00:20 PM
Ah, the good old days!

(http://fischer.hosting.paran.com/music/dgg-lps/dgg-images/26134597_303x300.jpg)

(http://fischer.hosting.paran.com/music/dgg-lps/dgg-images/24877216_300x300.jpg)

(http://fischer.hosting.paran.com/music/dgg-lps/dgg-images/26525387_308x300.jpg)

I bought the second one there, #4, as one of my first classical LPs. It was a delete, $3.99 in 19** from a local shop with a small classical section. Love at first hearing.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on May 29, 2014, 05:27:16 PM
Good memories, eh?
Interestingly my mind does not go towards cathedrals and abbeys when I listen to Bruckner. Still, great art on those LP covers.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on May 29, 2014, 08:32:12 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 29, 2014, 05:27:16 PM
Good memories, eh?
Interestingly my mind does not go towards cathedrals and abbeys when I listen to Bruckner. Still, great art on those LP covers.  :)
Especially with DG's glossy covers.
How goes Chailly? His Mahler is the best cycle I have heard. Though I have never heard Boulez and think he'd probably be fantastic.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on May 29, 2014, 09:59:31 PM
Quote from: Ken B on May 29, 2014, 08:32:12 PM
Especially with DG's glossy covers.
How goes Chailly? His Mahler is the best cycle I have heard. Though I have never heard Boulez and think he'd probably be fantastic.

The mailman is getting Chaillyized..!!!   :'( :'(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 02, 2014, 10:17:40 AM
Continuing apace in the Brilliant box (ex-Berlin classics), one of the only three non-Rögner performances in the set:

- Second symphony, in an amazingly lifelike and sweet live 1951 recording. Franz Konwitschny and the RSO Berlin.

It was quite daring of the conductor to program the 2nd symphony in those days, when Bruckner was more or less shunned in concert halls across Germany. Only the steadfast advocacy of Furtwängler and Knappertsbusch kept his name on the concert billboards of the time.

This is the 1877 version in the Haas edition, with scherzo third. This was sometimes named 'Symphony of pauses'. True to this nickname, Konwitschny adheres to the full time value of the numerous pauses (paragraph ends, really). While this may accentuate the impression that the symphony is bogged down by hesitant, tentative musical progress, I would say that, au contraire, what it accentuates is the musical value of these long paragraphs. As if Bruckner was more concerned by the internal logic of their development than by a sophisticated assemblage of its contrasting sections. This may the biggest stumbling block for a Brahms lover (you can count me among the latter).

Possibly because of its rather rare airings, that non-discursive, resolutely of-the-moment (block by block) development, the second is generally the least performed of the ten numbered symphonies. And yet, it is possibly the most effusively lyrical. Only in the adagio of the sixth would Bruckner regain that innocent freshness and pure lyrical strain.

The version at hand is, as mentioned, blessed with a recording that - I swear - sounds a good 25 years younger. The master tape must have been very carefully handled and stored by the East Berlin Radio. The interpretation is masterful. It is at once ruminative, attentive to all the felicities of orchestration (low winds and strings esp.), contemplative (it's a full 10% slower than most) yet manly and assertive. The treacherous horn-over-strings coda to the Adagio is very well done (remember: it's a live performance). Climaxes build slowly, resolutely to their powerful conclusion.

This beautiful, unconventional readings garners the full 5 stars.

Other recommended versions include the obligatory detour via the original (1872) version, of which Tintner is an ardent, similarly inclined advocate. Among the Nowak and Haas versions of the definitive text, I like the Hans Zender best. There are at least half a dozen very good to great discs around of that cinderella  among Bruckner symphonies.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 02, 2014, 10:53:14 AM
Quote from: André on June 02, 2014, 10:17:40 AM
Continuing apace in the Brilliant box (ex-Berlin classics), one of the only three non-Rögner performances in the set:

- Second symphony, in an amazingly lifelike and sweet live 1951 recording. Franz Konwitschny and the RSO Berlin.

As I age, I feel an uncanny unreality surrounding such older recordings, linking us to the fading past.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on June 02, 2014, 12:38:02 PM
Quote from: Cato on June 02, 2014, 10:53:14 AM
As I age, I feel an uncanny unreality surrounding such older recordings, linking us to the fading past.

As in that we all will one day be part of the fading past....?    It is probably a feeling of reality rather than unreality...     ??? :'( :'(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on June 02, 2014, 12:42:13 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 29, 2014, 09:59:31 PM
The mailman is getting Chaillyized..!!!   :'( :'(
Mine got Reinered, and wow is he ever a grump now.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on June 02, 2014, 12:46:39 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 02, 2014, 12:42:13 PM
Mine got Reinered, and wow is he ever a grump now.

:D :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 17, 2014, 04:55:42 PM
Just listened to the 9th symphony under Eduard van Beinum (Concertgebouworkest of course). I have that twice, in Pierre Paquin's stereo effect mastering of pristine lps on Haydn House (beautiful sound), and in the recent cd set of all Beinum Bruckner recordings on Decca. I first listened to the HH recording.

This is definitely one of the GREAT recordings. Everything in it is perfect, provided you can adjust to his fervent, fervid pacing in I. I certainly can. My brucknerian pulse happens to have quickened in the last 30 years. Beinum has all the proportions right. Paragraph after paragraph makes sense when measured and integrated to/with the others. It is all so flowing. The Scherzo of course makes sense at a quick tempo and here, the articulatory and declamatory feats of the orchestra do the malevelence and bite of the music full justice without ever sounding rushed. It is quick no doubt, but the quality of the playing allows the ear to register every single note.

Conversely, Beinum's Adagio is of the heavenly , lenghty persuasion at over 26 minutes. Don't think for a moment that this is a slow tempo. How he conveys the passion of the argument at that tempo I know not, but there is no doubt that this is a searing, passionate, desolate and profound reding of this last symphonic utterance by the Master.

Later this week I'll listen to the Decca incarnation and report on technical matters if I find that they are worth mentioning.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 24, 2014, 05:57:28 PM
The fifth symphony is one of Bruckner's toughest nuts to crack. Many who like the composer's more lyrical efforts, and even the mighty, dramatic 8th and 9th symphonies are put off by this leviathan. And yet, it has claims to be the most classically anchored of them all. It contains just about every kind of structural device the classical composers have imagined.

Suffice to say that it is no longer than the 8th and yet, it seems more himalayan in scope than the Tragic. Its first movement is the longest, most elaborate of all his works before the 9th. Its Adagio one of the most hieratic, enigmatic.  Its scherzo one of the most cryptic in its minimalism and the second longest of all. Its Finale drawn on the most ambitious scale ever until that time, crowned by the longest, noisiest coda ever penned.

In any case, it's the second or third symphony by Bruckner I listened to as a teenager and it hooked me for good (t'was the Jochum BRSO version, quickly followed by the Klemperer NPO. Currently I own around 35 versions of all types, character, mien and persuasion. According to the John Berky discography, its timings range from 65 to 95 mins., making it - along with the 8th - one of the most elastic of all Bruckner symphonies.

Over the years I have come to accept all kinds of interpretations, from the turbulent, quasi-maniacal versions of Kegel, Furtwängler, to the mystic, ceremonial Celibidache. My initial fixation with Klemperer's hieratic tempi, geriatric articulation has abted a little. I still consider his studio and live New Philharmonia to be among the greatest things ever put on disc. And yet I veer more and more to the livelier, speedier, 68-70 minutes versions.

I recently listened to four such interprétations on disc that left me enthralled with the greatness of the music.

- Blomstedt and the WP. It's not commercially available. Beautiful, typical WP playing of great power and tonal splendour. Energetic, majestic phrasing and articulation. Refulgent yet considered. Very good ORF broadcast sound. A few clunkers, including what must be a dropped item (mute?) that shatters the beginning of the Adagio. If it was issued commercially it would trump many old favourites.

Rögner and the RSO Berlin (Berlin Classics, now reissued as part of a mostly-Rögner integral on Brilliant). Fast and furious, with big unwritten timpani swells in the right places. Great brass and gorgeous strings. Dramatic conducting that drives the argument home triumphantly. The fly in the ointment is the impossibly recessed horn section in the coda of IV. Fortunately trumpets, trombones and tuba are there in full force and piledrive their combined tonal resources mightily. A thrilling reading.

Furtwängler's wartime (1942) recording has long been touted for its incandescent interpretation and visionary interpretation, captured in stunning sound (for the period). That one, too is in the 68-70 minutes range. Furtwängler manages some death-defying accelerandos that only he could get away with. Meantime, the orchestra covers itself with tonal glory in an almost melodramatic romp through the score. It is at once fervent, mystic, dramatic and romantic.  A one-off maybe, but no brucknerian worth its salt should be without it.

The Kegel version (on Weitblick) has the redoubtable Leipzig RSO playing the hell out in a spectacular live recording. It is crude, exciting, noisy (the brass!) and yet perfectly proportioned and apportioned. This is a great regional orchestra with one of the toughest, meanest brass brigades around mightily filling the expanses of the Kongresshalle, Leipzig. It is single-minded and multi-faceted at the same time - the music is, and the conductor has the intelligence to unveil its many guises in a masterly fashion. Not for the faint of heart.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 29, 2014, 07:36:35 AM
Listened to this week:

Symphony no 5, under Heinz Wallberg. The conductor is at the helm of the obscure NiederÖsterreischische Symponie Orchester (Lower Austria  S. O., also known on some labels as the National austrian Symphony Orchestra). The strings are meagre in numbers, but in this 1966 recording the orchestra plays with commitment and great sympathy with the Bruckner idiom. Wallberg conducts a fairly brisk performance (70 minutes) but it sounds moderate because of the typical austrian soft attacks and affectionate articulation. 3.5 stars.

Symphony no. 4. Lucerne Festival Orchestra under  Claudio Abbado. Splendid playing, but too note-perfect and unctuous for me. Not a misstep or wrong note in sight, it is smooth and buttery (first movement esp.). A beautiful, slightly faceless performance. 3 stars.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 07, 2014, 08:17:12 AM
More Bruckner 4ths by Keilberth (NHK Symphony), Schmidt-Isserstedt (NDR Symphony Orchestra) and Bruno Walter (Columbia Symphony Orchestra).

Quickly: the Tokyo Keilberth performance is a big, juicy affair. It starts tentatively, as the first horn is decidedly cautious in his opening solo and things take a while to settle. The Andante is excellently paced, not a funeral march, but a pleasantly atmospheric and suitably sombre jog in the countryside. The scherzo is a blockbuster here. So is the Finale, Bruckner's least successful movement. Excellent sound for the time (live, 1968). A big, bold Romantic.

Schmidt-Isserstedt's interp is contemporaneous (1966) but far smoother in contour and execution. It is also less interesting.

I was very pleasantly surprised at Bruno Walter's muscular, manly take on the work. He starts off more mysteriously by having the string tremolos register at a healthy mf instesd of the more usual pp. It's a small detail, but a telling one. I sat up and took notice. The orchestra plays beautifully. Never have I heard so many deliciously pointed wind playing troughout - a tribute to the conductor, players, and engineers. The coda of the finale is one of the very best I ever heard - along with Celibidache's. A classic, timeless disc in excellent sound.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 09, 2014, 04:05:59 PM
The 5th symphony in a 1953 concert performance by the Südwestfunk Radio Symphonie orchester, Baden Baden under the great Hans Rosbaud. Not only is the sound excelent for its vintage, but it's one of the only two mono performances I would include in a Top Ten recommendation (the other being Furtwängler's). It is simple, logical, direct, sensitive and very powerful at once. This short description may sound unglamorous, but these qwualities play to the work's strengths. Recommended
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 09, 2014, 11:45:05 PM
How do we feel about the String Quintet? Personally I feel it's a beautiful and characteristic work and I'd recommend it as a way of getting in to Bruckner, a way for people who don't know his music to appreciate the timescales he composed to.

And what are the great recordings? I just have a couple of taped radio broadcasts and a disk of the Vienna Philharmonic Quintet.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on July 10, 2014, 03:52:03 AM
Is the Vienna Phil the one on Decca/Australian eloquence? I think I have this one as well; it is very romantic and sumptuous. My other recording is Archibudelli on Sony Vivarte, coupled with the early quartet. This one is leaner, but despite the HIP players not as much as one would expect. I like the piece, especially the slow mvtm, but am fine with those two, so I didn't explore other options.
There is one with the Raphael Ensemble on hyperion which should be very good, too (I love their Brahms sextets and Mendelssohn quintets).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 10, 2014, 02:34:40 PM
I think I'm pretty much the same, liked the Vienna Philharmonic Quintet recording so much I didn't explore further.

I think Bruckner in this peice did a magnificent job of writing for a chamber group, I never get the feeling it's an orchestral piece (and no-one has ever tried to orchestrate it, as far as I'm aware). A great achievement when you consider that his entire composing life (apart from the early quartet and this piece) was devoted to the orchestra (and voices sometimes).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 13, 2014, 08:19:40 AM
Symphony no 9. Berliner Philharmoniker, conducted by Joseph Keilberth (1960 live recording, Testament).
I love the Hamburg Phil recording of that work on Telefunken. It is slightly older (1958), but being a studio effort from a great label it still sounds wonderful. Keilberth is a tellurian, volcanic yet patient brucknerian. For those who love the first Karajan BP recording, it offers a similar experience in a raw, unvarnished yet polished interpretation.

The live Berlin performance is even more extreme in this immensely involved, dedicated performance. I believe it is probably the most flooring, sock-it-to-them performance I have heard. The playing has that hugeness of sound the Berliners at full throttle could provide when prompted to do so by the right conductor. Unfortunately in the last few minutes the brass are audibly tired. This is quite understandable considering they have given their considerable best throughout the evening.  A formidable, exceptional performance by one of the best brucknerians ever.

Symphony no 5, the Dreden Staatskapelle under Giuseppe Sinopoli. Another huge-sounding virtuoso orchestra, whose massed forces are likely to be found intimidating at full volume. Sonically they could not be more different than the berliners. Sinopoli guides them expertly in the huge vistas of that behemoth of a work. Yet I find it all a wee bit marmoreal and intellectual. IOW slightly unengaged  from the podium. As if the conductor was content to let that Mercedes of an orchestra nonchalantly strut their stuff at the gallery. Lest that sound like a dull interpretation, it is emphatically not. But the sonic perfection is such that this is what registers first - before the greatness of the music and before any conductorial concept - of which one hears rather little other than solid, Study, powerful gestures and patient build up of the mighty climaxes. Great sound. A solid "A", slightly below the best (Klemperer, Rosbaud, Celi Munich '85, Suitner, Kegel, Furtwänger, van Beinum). On a par with Rögner, Marthé, Horenstein, Gielen,Blomstedt. I could very well imagine this being a preferred version. It has it all, in spades.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 24, 2014, 08:40:46 PM
In all my years of listening there have been performances which have literally moved the earth beneath me, sapped all the oxygen from my lungs (temporarily ;)), flooded me with excitement, and whisked me through some E.T.-like musical wormhole into whatever dimension lay in waiting.

But to this day I've never had a performance threaten me with what I suspect must be some Holy Rite since it happens so frequently to others yet somehow has been completely out of reach for me: the jerking loose of a tear.

Dang if it ain't the truth. Not anything on a fountain-like level mind you but this very evening my eyes welled up like they never have before. All brought to me by the good folks of the Vienna PO with Boulez holding the golden reins. 

Can't give higher praise than that for this mighty performance. 




[asin]B00004TL2N[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on July 25, 2014, 06:10:46 AM

Notes from the 2014 Salzburg Festival ( 2 )
Bruckner Cycle IV • Barenboim, WPh


(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kbBJMf2qoKg/U85r_6z2dcI/AAAAAAAAHeM/BDnyUcuWMIM/s1600/notesfromthesalzburgfestival2014.gif)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SZ6aBaB4KTw/U9GbiBHD6fI/AAAAAAAAHgI/tREuO1rNtO4/s1600/Salzburg_Barenboim_Domingo_Reger_WPh_laurson_600.jpg) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/07/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-2.html)

QuoteLorin Maazel was a fixture at the Salzburg Festival, leading 119 performances between 1963 and 2013.
It made sense, therefore, to slap an "in Memoriam" label onto one of this summer's performances and even more so
to make it one of the concerts in which a requiem featured... and furthermore with an orchestra that had a history with
Lorin Maazel. The first such concert happened to be the Vienna Philharmonic's opening shot under Daniel Barenboim—
the beginning of this year's Bruckner Cycle at the Salzburg Festival...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 27, 2014, 09:53:09 AM
A new Fischer Bruckner 7th disc. Here's a positive review from the Hurwitzer (http://www.classicstoday.com/review/fischer-puts-bruckner-diet/) and an attempted humorous negative Amazon review (click on the image), which I would normally think should be the other way around. But Hurwitzer's review has me very interested. Anyone heard this one yet?

[asin]B00K0ZIL6A[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on July 27, 2014, 11:47:24 AM
Ha! Greg, very nice, a praying, monk-ish frog. Being like a monk: monky. A monky frog. Nice.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 28, 2014, 03:51:40 AM
Quote from: Ken B on July 27, 2014, 11:47:24 AM
Ha! Greg, very nice, a praying, monk-ish frog. Being like a monk: monky. A monky frog. Nice.

The Monky Frog King keeps you in his prayers, Ken.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on July 28, 2014, 07:15:48 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 27, 2014, 09:53:09 AM
A new Fischer Bruckner 7th disc. Here's a positive review from the Hurwitzer (http://www.classicstoday.com/review/fischer-puts-bruckner-diet/) and an attempted humorous negative Amazon review (click on the image), which I would normally think should be the other way around. But Hurwitzer's review has me very interested. Anyone heard this one yet?

[asin]B00K0ZIL6A[/asin]

I'll be definitely getting it, sooner or later. The extended excerpts on last week's CD Review on BBC sounded great and I'm always game for some nonmolassed Bruckner.
There is another intriguing review over on RMCR (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.classical.recordings/eRVL8x713F8) (followed by usual blather).
Even without those I'd be very curious because Fischer/ Budapest Festival Orchestra is, for me, most consistently interesting conductor/orchestra combination active these days.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on July 28, 2014, 07:21:38 AM
I am very interested already, because it's Fischer/BFO, but the speedy paces throughout (the first two movements are 18 minutes each) suggest that, at the very worst, it will be a good discussion topic. We'll get some fun debates out of it, and how can you complain about that? :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 28, 2014, 07:25:51 AM
Thanks for the relies Drasko, Soapy and Brian. The MP3 is only $4 on Amazon so I may splurge for an overpriced sample, but I agree that Fischer/BFO make a great combo, I do love their Brahms 1st which is also quite hasty.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 28, 2014, 08:36:24 AM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on July 28, 2014, 08:19:08 AM
Have now listened to it.  Thoroughly enjoyable. :)  Playing is top-notch, as is the (SACD) sound quality.  Didn't find much that was controversial about the interpretation.  A bit brisker than some, sure, in places, but not to any detrimental effect, and otherwise well within the range of what might be considered standard.  A fine, enthusiastic performance that communicates well the virtues of Bruckner's music.

Great! Thanks for the comments, Soapy!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 28, 2014, 08:59:56 AM
One of the most stimulating versions of the 7th I know is by Carl Schuricht with the Hague Orchestra (which sounded rather terrible at the time). It boasted first two movements clocking in around 19 minutes. Fear not, for tempi in Bruckner are among the most elastic, enduring and versatile around, while retaining the distinct personality of the music. I will make an effort to obtain this if it's not outrageously pricey.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 28, 2014, 09:19:48 AM
Quote from: André on July 28, 2014, 08:59:56 AM
One of the most stimulating versions of the 7th I know is by Carl Schuricht with the Hague Orchestra (which sounded rather terrible at the time). It boasted first two movements clocking in around 19 minutes. Fear not, for tempi in Bruckner are among the most elastic, enduring and versatile around, while retaining the distinct personality of the music. I will make an effort to obtain this if it's not outrageously pricey.

Hi Andre'!  Yes, Carl Schuricht is always a great bet, even if the orchestra is not!   ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on July 28, 2014, 09:39:57 AM
Quote from: André on July 28, 2014, 08:59:56 AM
One of the most stimulating versions of the 7th I know is by Carl Schuricht with the Hague Orchestra (which sounded rather terrible at the time). It boasted first two movements clocking in around 19 minutes. Fear not, for tempi in Bruckner are among the most elastic, enduring and versatile around, while retaining the distinct personality of the music.

Exactly, my favorite 7th, Boulez, is also under 19 minutes in first two movements and it feels just right to me.

Quote from: Soapy Molloy on July 28, 2014, 09:30:34 AM
There are slow performances than still manage to sound rushed, and fast ones that take all the time they need.  This seems to me a good example of the latter.

Agreed. I always felt that if the conductor allows players proper time for articulation and observes the breathing points, not to be 'pregnant pauses' but to be there, overall tempo can be quite fast but not feel rushed.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on July 28, 2014, 10:53:12 AM
Quote from: André on July 28, 2014, 08:59:56 AMI will make an effort to obtain this if it's not outrageously pricey.

Including shipping, about US $19. (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Channel/CCSSA33714)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 28, 2014, 11:41:35 AM
Quote from: Drasko on July 28, 2014, 09:39:57 AM
Agreed. I always felt that if the conductor allows players proper time for articulation and observes the breathing points, not to be 'pregnant pauses' but to be there, overall tempo can be quite fast but not feel rushed.

You must not have heard Norrington's Seventh. His first movement makes Fischer sound like Celi: 14:55 ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 28, 2014, 12:55:50 PM
Fifth symphony: my all-time favourite has for decades been the New Philharmonia by Klemperer. On a German Electrola vinyl set, not the various incarnations issued by EMI on cd. It may sound persnickety, but it is not. My ears tell me there is a (small) world of difference between the crystal clear sounds of the vinyl and the slightly airless ones of the cd (2 incarnations, including that of the latest batch of Klemperer big boxes).

Well, I have finallly found one that trumps this legendary performance: it'a also played by the New Philharmonia and directed by ... Klemperer. It's a March 1967 concert perfromance taped in pellucid sound in the Royal Festival Hall, London. Issued on the Testament label. The sonics are magnificent: slightly more concert-hall like than the winds-dominated textures achieved in studio by the EMI team in Kingsway Hall. All told the timing is 2 minutes shorter, which helps impart a sense of inexorability to the music making. Textures are more etched and a tad brassier, giving a razor-sharp, breath-catching feeling to the big climaxes. Timpani, too are more present and sonorous, without the overwhelming onslaught favoured by some less keen-eared maestros. Timps were the one unsatisfying aspect of the EMI recording.

I can't think of a more satisfying orchestral sound than this for that work. In its adequation to the music it reminds me of the fabulous Stein WP 2nd, Keilberth BPO 6th or the Giulini WP 7th. Amplitude of gesture allied to airiness of soundstage and powerful utterances from the main orchestral brigades (strings and brass) are what make great Bruckner textures. You need that kind of combination for a slow, patient and purposeful direction to make its full effect.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 30, 2014, 03:45:35 PM
Quote from: André on July 28, 2014, 12:55:50 PM
Fifth symphony: my all-time favourite has for decades been the New Philharmonia by Klemperer. On a German Electrola vinyl set, not the various incarnations issued by EMI on cd. It may sound persnickety, but it is not. My ears tell me there is a (small) world of difference between the crystal clear sounds of the vinyl and the slightly airless ones of the cd (2 incarnations, including that of the latest batch of Klemperer big boxes).

Well, I have finallly found one that trumps this legendary performance: it'a also played by the New Philharmonia and directed by ... Klemperer. It's a March 1967 concert perfromance taped in pellucid sound in the Royal Festival Hall, London. Issued on the Testament label. The sonics are magnificent: slightly more concert-hall like than the winds-dominated textures achieved in studio by the EMI team in Kingsway Hall. All told the timing is 2 minutes shorter, which helps impart a sense of inexorability to the music making. Textures are more etched and a tad brassier, giving a razor-sharp, breath-catching feeling to the big climaxes. Timpani, too are more present and sonorous, without the overwhelming onslaught favoured by some less keen-eared maestros. Timps were the one unsatisfying aspect of the EMI recording.

I can't think of a more satisfying orchestral sound than this for that work. In its adequation to the music it reminds me of the fabulous Stein WP 2nd, Keilberth BPO 6th or the Giulini WP 7th. Amplitude of gesture allied to airiness of soundstage and powerful utterances from the main orchestral brigades (strings and brass) are what make great Bruckner textures. You need that kind of combination for a slow, patient and purposeful direction to make its full effect.

Many thanks for the information on these performances!

Concerning Klemperer and the Fifth Symphony: Many moons ago, I listened to one of his Angel records with the Fifth, and thought the performance was rather peppy for Klemperer, but also that it was in the wrong key, according to my score!

After the first movement concluded, I discovered that my sister had changed the speed on our stereo to 45 rpm!   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 30, 2014, 03:49:34 PM
Only with Cato.. :laugh:
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on July 30, 2014, 04:10:54 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 30, 2014, 03:45:35 PM
Many thanks for the information on these performances!

Concerning Klemperer and the Fifth Symphony: Many moons ago, I listened to one of his Angel records with the Fifth, and thought the performance was rather peppy for Klemperer, but also that it was in the wrong key, according to my score!

After the first movement concluded, I discovered that my sister had changed the speed on our stereo to 45 rpm!   0:)
Oh crap. You mean I didn't have to burn that St Matthew Passion?

>:D :laugh:
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 30, 2014, 04:26:08 PM
How did you 'burn' it ?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on July 30, 2014, 05:10:41 PM
Quote from: André on July 30, 2014, 04:26:08 PM
How did you 'burn' it ?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Midsummer_bonfire_in_Pielavasi%2C_Finland.JPG)
;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on July 30, 2014, 05:29:57 PM
I wonder if anyone would like to chew on and respond to Georg Tintner's criticism of the Sixth Symphony:

"The Finale starts interestingly enough. A rather austere tune in the violins is seconded by the second clarinet. After its repeat in the subdominant it is rudely interrupted by the trumpets and horns, who assert the main key in a very loud and rhythmical fashion. The whole orchestra then plays a new brass tune full of semitones and brings forth-another rather heroic melody. After all these monumental utterances a charming, dance-like melody beguiles us. Then over a soft major chord in the horns, the oboes and clarinets introduce a new tune as from far away (it is a distant relation to the oboe lament in the second movement, but here is in major). Bruckner must have been in love with this melody, but the more often it appears, the richer and louder it is orchestrated and (it seems to me) the more banal It becomes. Now the first tune is played considerably slower by the celli accompanied by the trombones, the second violins also in the slower tempo play the main tune, richly embroidered, in a remote key. The brass tunes are also slower here until the whole orchestra asserts the main key once more in the faster, original tempo. After a rather virtuosic passage in the violins (a rarity in Bruckner's works) the charming country tune reappears in the home key. The final loud and rhythmical assertion of the main key appears rather unexpectedly and perhaps not quite convincingly. Not even the quotation of the main tune of the first movement in the trombones can obliterate a feeling of slight dissatisfaction. So in the Sixth Symphony we have three perfect movements and one that is somewhat problematical - at least to me."

From the Naxos album liner notes (http://www.naxos.com/mainsite/blurbs_reviews.asp?item_code=8.553453&catNum=553453&filetype=About%20this%20Recording&language=English#)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on July 30, 2014, 05:57:37 PM
That would probably the theme which I think of as an outake from Lawrence of Arabia. Colin Davis makes it truly banal on his LSO recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: EigenUser on July 30, 2014, 05:58:26 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 30, 2014, 05:29:57 PM
I wonder if anyone would like to chew on and respond to Georg Tintner's criticism of the Sixth Symphony:

"The Finale starts interestingly enough. A rather austere tune in the violins is seconded by the second clarinet. After its repeat in the subdominant it is rudely interrupted by the trumpets and horns, who assert the main key in a very loud and rhythmical fashion. The whole orchestra then plays a new brass tune full of semitones and brings forth-another rather heroic melody. After all these monumental utterances a charming, dance-like melody beguiles us. Then over a soft major chord in the horns, the oboes and clarinets introduce a new tune as from far away (it is a distant relation to the oboe lament in the second movement, but here is in major). Bruckner must have been in love with this melody, but the more often it appears, the richer and louder it is orchestrated and (it seems to me) the more banal It becomes. Now the first tune is played considerably slower by the celli accompanied by the trombones, the second violins also in the slower tempo play the main tune, richly embroidered, in a remote key. The brass tunes are also slower here until the whole orchestra asserts the main key once more in the faster, original tempo. After a rather virtuosic passage in the violins (a rarity in Bruckner's works) the charming country tune reappears in the home key. The final loud and rhythmical assertion of the main key appears rather unexpectedly and perhaps not quite convincingly. Not even the quotation of the main tune of the first movement in the trombones can obliterate a feeling of slight dissatisfaction. So in the Sixth Symphony we have three perfect movements and one that is somewhat problematical - at least to me."

From the Naxos album liner notes (http://www.naxos.com/mainsite/blurbs_reviews.asp?item_code=8.553453&catNum=553453&filetype=About%20this%20Recording&language=English#)
I'm probably in the minority, but I felt similarly after hearing the piece today. I loved the first movement. After hearing the second, I loved it just as much, possibly more. I liked the third, but not as much as the first two. Then, the fourth... I was a little bit let down. It was good, but the first three movements set up much more than the last delivered. The theme from the first movement seemed thrown in as an afterthought, as did that repeated rhythm from the first movement (you know the one I'm talking about...). Overall, I really loved the piece though. Maybe the last movement will grow on me.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 30, 2014, 06:34:25 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 30, 2014, 05:57:37 PM
That would probably the theme which I think of as an outtake from Lawrence of Arabia. Colin Davis makes it truly banal on his LSO recording.

;) ;D

Interesting: that record made me think of the theme as from a Cecil B. DeMille Biblical epic! 

"Die Sechste ist die Keckste!" i.e.

"The Sixth is the sauciest!" said Bruckner once.  Apparently he knew that it could be considered very "cheeky."   $:)

Certainly the Finale can seem episodic, a crazy-quilt, ADHD version of a symphonic Finale.  But such "cheekiness" is heard earlier, although not too much (or at all) in the slow movement.  This is a movement where the cohesiveness lays not in the main themes, but in the contrapuntal and rhythmical unconscious of the score.  Conductors who ignore that, and let the main themes be emphasized at the expense of these other factors, will therefore be emphasizing the episodic aspects.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on July 30, 2014, 07:12:09 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 30, 2014, 05:29:57 PM
I wonder if anyone would like to chew on and respond to Georg Tintner's criticism of the Sixth Symphony:

"The Finale starts interestingly enough. A rather austere tune in the violins is seconded by the second clarinet. After its repeat in the subdominant it is rudely interrupted by the trumpets and horns, who assert the main key in a very loud and rhythmical fashion. The whole orchestra then plays a new brass tune full of semitones and brings forth-another rather heroic melody. After all these monumental utterances a charming, dance-like melody beguiles us. Then over a soft major chord in the horns, the oboes and clarinets introduce a new tune as from far away (it is a distant relation to the oboe lament in the second movement, but here is in major). Bruckner must have been in love with this melody, but the more often it appears, the richer and louder it is orchestrated and (it seems to me) the more banal It becomes. Now the first tune is played considerably slower by the celli accompanied by the trombones, the second violins also in the slower tempo play the main tune, richly embroidered, in a remote key. The brass tunes are also slower here until the whole orchestra asserts the main key once more in the faster, original tempo. After a rather virtuosic passage in the violins (a rarity in Bruckner's works) the charming country tune reappears in the home key. The final loud and rhythmical assertion of the main key appears rather unexpectedly and perhaps not quite convincingly. Not even the quotation of the main tune of the first movement in the trombones can obliterate a feeling of slight dissatisfaction. So in the Sixth Symphony we have three perfect movements and one that is somewhat problematical - at least to me."

From the Naxos album liner notes (http://www.naxos.com/mainsite/blurbs_reviews.asp?item_code=8.553453&catNum=553453&filetype=About%20this%20Recording&language=English#)
Yup. Last movement ... Inhales strongly and steadily.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on August 01, 2014, 04:34:46 PM
This week I listened to 3 recordings of the Sixth symphony

- Günter Wand and the Kölner RSO.  Part of the RCA Wand Cologne integral set.
- Heinz Rögner and the RSO Berlin on Brilliant, part of an integral set.
- Bernard Haitink and the Sttatskapelle Dresden, a Profil disc from a live concert.

Amazing how diffferent these discs sound. Not just a question of recording (excellent), but tone production from the orchestras and, I suppose, the conductor's balances.

- By far the most 'familiar' sound comes from the Cologne orchestra (recorded in the Bismarck Saal, not the Philharmonie - their current venue). Attacks are bold yet rounded, a certain level of trenchancy is on display troughout and all sections interact and dovetail each other neatly. Wand's tempi are brisk, to the point, his phrasing well-moulded yet always alert. A classic account, full of life and brucknerian stamina. 9/10

- Then there is the oddball Rögner coming in with his bagful of tricks and treats.  I love the way everything coheres despite a vagarious assemblage of tempi, fluctuations thereof, dynamic fineness and masterly moulding of orchestral balances. This is a capricious, 'kechste' 6th. Bold, dynamic, loving yet love-seeking, full of 'meaningful' twists and turns. The orchestra follows the lead like one man and produce a very different sound from Cologne. There are dovetailings and sonic overlaps whereas in Cologne everything is line-and-paragraph neat. I hesitate between 8.5 and 9/10.

Then there is Haitink with the frankly overdressed and overweight Dresden  Staatskapelle. I'm absolutely not against the weight and bulk on display here. But I prefer Keilberth's abrasiveness (with the similarly endowed BPO). But it's all so musically done. Haitink continues to adhere to classic, flowing yet thoughtful tempi. Unimpeachable in that respect. It's just that the slimness, trimness of what must have been a true brucknerian orchestra ca. 1900 is nowhere in sight. Musically it's an excellent version. 8.5/10. I still prefer his earlier Concertgebouw interpretation.

For the record: my 10/10 versions are (in no particular order) : Swoboda, Keilberth, Stein, Bongartz, the two Leitners. Then (9/10): Wand Cologne, Keilberth, Klemperer BBC and maybe the clolourful Rögner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 01, 2014, 08:52:50 PM
Finding more and more to like in Dohnanyi's Bruckner. It's not as lyrical as Chailly's, more in the Jochum/architecture mould. Though its scale is pared down.





(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/959/MI0000959706.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on August 03, 2014, 08:29:13 AM
Sixth symphony under Günter Wand again, this time one of the live performances from Hamburg with the NDR Orchestra. Very different from the excellent Kölner Rundfunk recording. Longer, bigger contoured, edges rounded off, phrasing moulded, with a distincly buttery flavour. Not to my liking, but extremely polished. Hard to voice criticism, but to me it's a let down.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on August 03, 2014, 04:55:55 PM
2 other versions of the sixth to ponder:

- First, one of the most thoughtful, elegiac yet powerful, where everything is in such perfect balance that never does one pause to think or argue about the tempi or the phrasing. Indeed if I recall correctly it is one of the favourtes of my Bruckner mentor Nigel: Ferdinand Leitner and the Basel (Switzerland) Symphony Orchestra (on Accord, 1992). At 62 minutes it is one of the longest recorded performances. Yet, it never feels long - spacious maybe, but gloriously carried out. One of the best, after Bongartz, Keilberth, Leitner in Baden-Baden, Stein, Swoboda. These are my top 5. Then the Leitner Basel, Kegel and this one:

Otto Klemperer in Amsterdam, June 61. A study in contrasts: the slowest start to I ever (by far) and the swiftest Adagio. Yet everything balances and coheres. Good sound (live recording). Possibly the most characterful of the 3 Klemperer performances I know (EMI Philharmonia and Testament BBC).

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 03, 2014, 07:14:57 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 30, 2014, 05:29:57 PM
I wonder if anyone would like to chew on and respond to Georg Tintner's criticism of the Sixth Symphony:

"The Finale starts interestingly enough. A rather austere tune in the violins is seconded by the second clarinet. After its repeat in the subdominant it is rudely interrupted by the trumpets and horns, who assert the main key in a very loud and rhythmical fashion. The whole orchestra then plays a new brass tune full of semitones and brings forth-another rather heroic melody. After all these monumental utterances a charming, dance-like melody beguiles us. Then over a soft major chord in the horns, the oboes and clarinets introduce a new tune as from far away (it is a distant relation to the oboe lament in the second movement, but here is in major). Bruckner must have been in love with this melody, but the more often it appears, the richer and louder it is orchestrated and (it seems to me) the more banal It becomes. Now the first tune is played considerably slower by the celli accompanied by the trombones, the second violins also in the slower tempo play the main tune, richly embroidered, in a remote key. The brass tunes are also slower here until the whole orchestra asserts the main key once more in the faster, original tempo. After a rather virtuosic passage in the violins (a rarity in Bruckner's works) the charming country tune reappears in the home key. The final loud and rhythmical assertion of the main key appears rather unexpectedly and perhaps not quite convincingly. Not even the quotation of the main tune of the first movement in the trombones can obliterate a feeling of slight dissatisfaction. So in the Sixth Symphony we have three perfect movements and one that is somewhat problematical - at least to me."

From the Naxos album liner notes (http://www.naxos.com/mainsite/blurbs_reviews.asp?item_code=8.553453&catNum=553453&filetype=About%20this%20Recording&language=English#)

I can't add anything musicological-wise to counter Tintner's criticism but the finale of the 6th has no adverse affects on me. It's Bruckner after all. In fact, after finishing the Dohnanyi performance the other night I put on Chailly's finale just for kicks and couldn't turn it off!



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 03, 2014, 07:33:17 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 03, 2014, 07:14:57 PM
I can't add anything musicological-wise to counter Tintner's criticism but the finale of the 6th has no adverse affects on me. It's Bruckner after all. In fact, after finishing the Dohnanyi performance the other night I put on Chailly's finale just for kicks and couldn't turn it off!

I think the finale of the 6th is far more interesting than problematic. Perhaps the movement is a bit of an enigma, but that intrigues me and to me it feels like a collaboration of the previous three movements featuring moments of majestic blaze from the Maestoso and poetic beauty of the Adagio. It is in fact this finale that truly aids the 6th in standing out as Bruckner's best. I do love all of his symphonies, and finales, but there's a certain drive and force behind the 6th finale that is unique.

And I was sad to see Chailly get booted from the Blind Comparison, his rendition of the finale is thrilling.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on August 03, 2014, 07:40:01 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 03, 2014, 07:33:17 PM
And I was sad to see Chailly get booted from the Blind Comparison, his rendition of the finale is thrilling.
Uh, if Chailly's first movement is still uploaded somewhere, I'd like to hear it. I did not get to vote on it, methinks.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 03, 2014, 07:59:51 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on July 24, 2014, 08:40:46 PM
In all my years of listening there have been performances which have literally moved the earth beneath me, sapped all the oxygen from my lungs (temporarily ;)), flooded me with excitement, and whisked me through some E.T.-like musical wormhole into whatever dimension lay in waiting.

But to this day I've never had a performance threaten me with what I suspect must be some Holy Rite since it happens so frequently to others yet somehow has been completely out of reach for me: the jerking loose of a tear.

Dang if it ain't the truth. Not anything on a fountain-like level mind you but this very evening my eyes welled up like they never have before. All brought to me by the good folks of the Vienna PO with Boulez holding the golden reins. 

Can't give higher praise than that for this mighty performance. 




[asin]B00004TL2N[/asin]

Spectacular performance, DD. For a good while was the only 8th I really listened to, now Wand/Berlin is in that mix. But I think the coherency of Boulez' direction is almost unmatched with the 8th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 03, 2014, 08:00:10 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 03, 2014, 07:40:01 PM
Uh, if Chailly's first movement is still uploaded somewhere, I'd like to hear it. I did not get to vote on it, methinks.

PM  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 03, 2014, 08:52:03 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 30, 2014, 05:29:57 PM
I wonder if anyone would like to chew on and respond to Georg Tintner's criticism of the Sixth Symphony:

"The Finale starts interestingly enough. A rather austere tune in the violins is seconded by the second clarinet. After its repeat in the subdominant it is rudely interrupted by the trumpets and horns, who assert the main key in a very loud and rhythmical fashion. The whole orchestra then plays a new brass tune full of semitones and brings forth-another rather heroic melody. After all these monumental utterances a charming, dance-like melody beguiles us. Then over a soft major chord in the horns, the oboes and clarinets introduce a new tune as from far away (it is a distant relation to the oboe lament in the second movement, but here is in major). Bruckner must have been in love with this melody, but the more often it appears, the richer and louder it is orchestrated and (it seems to me) the more banal It becomes. Now the first tune is played considerably slower by the celli accompanied by the trombones, the second violins also in the slower tempo play the main tune, richly embroidered, in a remote key. The brass tunes are also slower here until the whole orchestra asserts the main key once more in the faster, original tempo. After a rather virtuosic passage in the violins (a rarity in Bruckner's works) the charming country tune reappears in the home key. The final loud and rhythmical assertion of the main key appears rather unexpectedly and perhaps not quite convincingly. Not even the quotation of the main tune of the first movement in the trombones can obliterate a feeling of slight dissatisfaction. So in the Sixth Symphony we have three perfect movements and one that is somewhat problematical - at least to me."

From the Naxos album liner notes (http://www.naxos.com/mainsite/blurbs_reviews.asp?item_code=8.553453&catNum=553453&filetype=About%20this%20Recording&language=English#)

Pretty sad that Tinter thinks of symphonic movements as successions of tunes. Surprising his interpretations sound as good as they do.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on August 04, 2014, 02:04:09 PM
Quote from: EigenUser on July 30, 2014, 05:58:26 PM
I'm probably in the minority, but I felt similarly after hearing the piece today. I loved the first movement. After hearing the second, I loved it just as much, possibly more. I liked the third, but not as much as the first two. Then, the fourth... I was a little bit let down. ...

You know - if you're listening to a recording, you can always lift the needle when you get to the bit you don't like.

Not so easy if you're sitting in the concert hall.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 04, 2014, 02:44:10 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 03, 2014, 07:33:17 PM
I think the finale of the 6th is far more interesting than problematic. Perhaps the movement is a bit of an enigma, but that intrigues me and to me it feels like a collaboration of the previous three movements featuring moments of majestic blaze from the Maestoso and poetic beauty of the Adagio. It is in fact this finale that truly aids the 6th in standing out as Bruckner's best. I do love all of his symphonies, and finales, but there's a certain drive and force behind the 6th finale that is unique.

Yes to the above points especially!

"Drive and force" also describe the First Symphony as well!  (Not that the others are lacking in those qualities!)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 04, 2014, 05:45:01 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 03, 2014, 07:33:17 PM
I think the finale of the 6th is far more interesting than problematic. Perhaps the movement is a bit of an enigma, but that intrigues me and to me it feels like a collaboration of the previous three movements featuring moments of majestic blaze from the Maestoso and poetic beauty of the Adagio. It is in fact this finale that truly aids the 6th in standing out as Bruckner's best. I do love all of his symphonies, and finales, but there's a certain drive and force behind the 6th finale that is unique.

I agree about the enigma part. That's what draws me to his music in general. It's either I take the music on its own terms or go home. And as far as the finale of the 6th, I had no idea when I was enjoying it (twice!) the other night that I was in error. I should make that mistake again!


QuoteAnd I was sad to see Chailly get booted from the Blind Comparison, his rendition of the finale is thrilling.

I saw that. But listening to the finale the other night I think I can see why. Chailly's rendition is principally lyrical, at least compared to the more extrovert Jochum/EMI and Dohnanyi I have. Lyricism can sometimes be mistaken for reticence and in a "competition setting" reticence won't get anyone very far. Chailly's patient, lyrical mood painting takes time to digest, and such an approach is pretty much anathema to competitions (just a theory...no flaming, please).


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 04, 2014, 06:06:00 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 03, 2014, 07:59:51 PM
Spectacular performance, DD. For a good while was the only 8th I really listened to, now Wand/Berlin is in that mix. But I think the coherency of Boulez' direction is almost unmatched with the 8th.

Yes, the work must've been close Boulez's heart. You can hear it. And the VPO play as if their next meal depended on it.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on August 04, 2014, 06:16:19 PM
I listened to Chailly's first movement and liked it. Of course I also liked Russell Davies who was almost everyone else's least favourite, and I thought Colin Davis's LSO recording was close to ideal, apart from the final chord which is a disgrace. (That is a staccato mark Colin you dunderhead! >.>) So what my opinion of classics like Jochum and Wand will turn out to be is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 04, 2014, 06:38:18 PM
Quote from: amw on August 04, 2014, 06:16:19 PM
I listened to Chailly's first movement and liked it. Of course I also liked Russell Davies who was almost everyone else's least favourite, and I thought Colin Davis's LSO recording was close to ideal, apart from the final chord which is a disgrace. (That is a staccato mark Colin you dunderhead! >.>) So what my opinion of classics like Jochum and Wand will turn out to be is anyone's guess.

Chailly makes great work of two of the early symphonies, too. His recordings of the 1st and 3rd are fabulous.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 13, 2014, 09:30:43 PM
The 5th has been a tough nut to crack for me. My listening had never really made it beyond the tolerance stage in the past, at least for the first 3/4ths of the work. But looking back in this thread there'd been some pretty high praise for Dohnanyi's 5th with the Clevelanders. Wondered if it would be worth it to take the plunge...might be just the thing to make me a Believer.

Bought the disc...listening time in the can...and...

...let the metaphors fly........like a butterfly first encountering fresh air after popping its cocoon, zot it's alive! And boy is the conversion on. What a performance. 'Nuff said.
 



(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/A1gNUxebghL._SL1500_.jpg)

   
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 16, 2014, 02:31:16 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 13, 2014, 09:30:43 PM
The 5th has been a tough nut to crack for me. My listening had never really made it beyond the tolerance stage in the past, at least for the first 3/4ths of the work. But looking back in this thread there'd been some pretty high praise for Dohnanyi's 5th with the Clevelanders. Wondered if it would be worth it to take the plunge...might be just the thing to make me a Believer.

Bought the disc...listening time in the can...and...

...let the metaphors fly........like a butterfly first encountering fresh air after popping its cocoon, zot it's alive! And boy is the conversion on. What a performance. 'Nuff said.

I had the great fortune to hear them play the work at a concert, and it was a great experience hearing not just those last pages of the Finale, but every page!  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 16, 2014, 08:59:51 PM
Quote from: Cato on August 16, 2014, 02:31:16 PM
I had the great fortune to hear them play the work at a concert, and it was a great experience hearing not just those last pages of the Finale, but every page!  ;)

The CD made me stand up and pay attention to the entire work, too. I can only guess that hearing it live would only quadruple the pleasure. :) 

So I've now been bitten by the Bruckner/Dohnányi/Cleveland bug. So far Dohnányi's 5th and 6th have proved first-rate. The Hurwitzer gives his 3rd and 8th high marks (though Sarge finds the 8th unsatisfying) so they're next on my listening agenda. The 7th and 9th won't be far behind.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 17, 2014, 05:54:23 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 13, 2014, 09:30:43 PM
The 5th has been a tough nut to crack for me. My listening had never really made it beyond the tolerance stage in the past, at least for the first 3/4ths of the work. But looking back in this thread there'd been some pretty high praise for Dohnanyi's 5th with the Clevelanders. Wondered if it would be worth it to take the plunge...might be just the thing to make me a Believer.

Bought the disc...listening time in the can...and...

...let the metaphors fly........like a butterfly first encountering fresh air after popping its cocoon, zot it's alive! And boy is the conversion on. What a performance. 'Nuff said.
 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/A1gNUxebghL._SL1500_.jpg)


The 5th is amazing. I strongly believe it's the most unique of Bruckner's symphonies. There's a slight disjointed feel throughout the first and final movements, and not in a bad way, but rather the music seems to be exploring all possible directions thus creating many different tempos and presentation of themes. To me it's quite enigmatic, but all within some of Bruckner's most beautiful melodies, expertly written harmonies and instrumentation. The finale is a masterpiece in itself. I particularly like how it doesn't shoot right out of a canon with its opening themes (Symphonies 3 & 8 ) or even become fully charged within the first few minutes (Symphonies 2, 4 & 6). It reveals its pieces one at a time, the soft string opening, the calling of the solo clarinet, the intense initial fugue and so on. Finally about a third into it arrives the majestic brass chorale which seems to finally put into motion the placing of all the layers together. This leads into an incredible fusion of the fugue and chorale eventually bringing the most massive of the composer's codas.
The Dohnanyi/Cleveland 5th is a special disc, which I can also say about that combo's 3rd, 4th, 6th and 9th recordings. Sinopoli, Chailly, Skrowaczewski, Harnoncourt and Barenboim also have must hear performances on disc. Barenboim's fast-paced finale coda (very similar to Furtwangler) has really grabbed my ears and has almost become a preference. But listen to how Skrowaczewski changes the coda slightly by putting the Horns up an octave when the coda begins, it's incredibly effective and makes me wonder why more conductors don't include it. I recently purchased Dennis Russell Davies/Bruckner Linz disc of the 5th and it's surprisingly very good. Davies adds a few touches that intrigue me. The Adagio is closer to a walking stride when compared to the outer movements, it flows very nicely and adds a lighter feel to the overall pacing of the symphony after Davies' leisurely heavy opener. Another is at the final bars when the timpani roll accompanies the final orchestral buttons, Davies slows the tempo waaayyyydown to really add emphasis to these final chords.

Quote from: Cato on August 16, 2014, 02:31:16 PM
I had the great fortune to hear them play the work at a concert, and it was a great experience hearing not just those last pages of the Finale, but every page!  ;)

That's awesome, Cato!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 18, 2014, 10:17:34 PM
A very witty friend of mine once, when we were listening to the 5th, listened patiently, but with cocked eyebrow, to the coda thundering away and when it had ended, said very quietly, "I think that's B flat".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 19, 2014, 10:58:02 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 17, 2014, 05:54:23 PM
The 5th is amazing. I strongly believe it's the most unique of Bruckner's symphonies. There's a slight disjointed feel throughout the first and final movements, and not in a bad way, but rather the music seems to be exploring all possible directions thus creating many different tempos and presentation of themes. To me it's quite enigmatic, but all within some of Bruckner's most beautiful melodies, expertly written harmonies and instrumentation. The finale is a masterpiece in itself. I particularly like how it doesn't shoot right out of a canon with its opening themes (Symphonies 3 & 8 ) or even become fully charged within the first few minutes (Symphonies 2, 4 & 6). It reveals its pieces one at a time, the soft string opening, the calling of the solo clarinet, the intense initial fugue and so on. Finally about a third into it arrives the majestic brass chorale which seems to finally put into motion the placing of all the layers together. This leads into an incredible fusion of the fugue and chorale eventually bringing the most massive of the composer's codas.

Wonderful breakdown, GS.

QuoteThe Dohnanyi/Cleveland 5th is a special disc, which I can also say about that combo's 3rd, 4th, 6th and 9th recordings. Sinopoli, Chailly, Skrowaczewski, Harnoncourt and Barenboim also have must hear performances on disc. Barenboim's fast-paced finale coda (very similar to Furtwangler) has really grabbed my ears and has almost become a preference. But listen to how Skrowaczewski changes the coda slightly by putting the Horns up an octave when the coda begins, it's incredibly effective and makes me wonder why more conductors don't include it. I recently purchased Dennis Russell Davies/Bruckner Linz disc of the 5th and it's surprisingly very good. Davies adds a few touches that intrigue me. The Adagio is closer to a walking stride when compared to the outer movements, it flows very nicely and adds a lighter feel to the overall pacing of the symphony after Davies' leisurely heavy opener. Another is at the final bars when the timpani roll accompanies the final orchestral buttons, Davies slows the tempo waaayyyydown to really add emphasis to these final chords.

Along with Dohnányi's I have 5ths from Chailly, Thielemann, and Jochum/EMI. Even with these heavy hitters the work (for the most part) remained out of reach for me. I had high hopes for Sinopoli's 5th, which is on Youtube, but still no progress. I do like the idea of Harnoncourt, though. May have to look into that one now that the 5th is growing on me. :)

I did manage to start in on Dohnányi's 3rd the other night but got interrupted. But for one-and-a-half movements I was spellbound. Can't wait to finish it.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: knight66 on August 22, 2014, 07:16:54 AM
Bruckner 9, Abbado, Lucerne forces.

I searched here feeling certain the eager Brucknerites/Brucknerarians here would have leapt on this performance and provided their opinions, but not a word as yet. The packaging tells us it is a live recording of Abbado's final performance, he died shortly afterwards. It also tells us that it was recorded over six days exactly a year ago. Whatever, it sounds of a piece. The concert was aptly valedictory, as this unfinished symphony was preceded by Schubert's Unfinished. Here, we have the Bruckner alone.

I have read various comments that retrospectively tie the atmosphere and the achievement in a semi-mystical way to the utter finality of the artist's work and life.

Many years ago I sat backstage on wooden steps listening to this piece. I was waiting to sing in the Bruckner Te Deum which was to substitute for the missing final movement. I was awe-struck at the powerful sonorities that physically moved through my body from the wooden platform I was sitting on. It was my first encounter with the piece and deeply impressed me, though I had no sensible evaluation of the quality of the performance. But much more than the Te Deum, which felt like a shouting match, that Ninth launched me into Bruckner's world.

I have a few recordings that have stuck with me, the live Karajan, Furtwangler's terrifying edge of the seat traversal, Colin Davis and some others. Abbado is sane, musical of course, proportionate and unhurried. He is containing, perhaps restraining the sheer drama that I think of as a vital element. The climaxes are there, but very civilised. Rather as André suggested earlier in this thread, perhaps it is too perfect. I did enjoy it, the playing is superb, strings make long phrases float like feathers. The finale is most beautiful and in many ways satisfying. I will return to it, but I don't think it is the epoch making performance that, I believe, sentiment has prompted some critics to suggest.

Mike
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 22, 2014, 07:23:10 AM
Quote from: knight66 on August 22, 2014, 07:16:54 AMAbbado is sane, musical of course, proportionate and unhurried. He is containing, perhaps restraining the sheer drama that I think of as a vital element. The climaxes are there, but very civilised. Rather as André suggested earlier in this thread, perhaps it is too perfect. I did enjoy it, the playing is superb, strings make long phrases float like feathers. The finale is most beautiful and in many ways satisfying. I will return to it, but I don't think it is the epoch making performance that, I believe, sentiment has prompted some critics to suggest.

Mike

You confirm what I would have guessed about this Ninth...and the reason I've never considered buying it. It's what I hear in other Abbado performances (much of his Mahler, for example): restrained drama, as though he's throttling the music.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on August 22, 2014, 04:30:25 PM
I recently listened to the 4th, 7th and 9th by Walter. I'd keep these over the whole corpus of Abbado's Bruckner any day. Not that the latter is bad. It is simply constipated emotionally in a way that finds its outlet in the music making. It is a rare feeling. It's like the music needs an enema.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 22, 2014, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: André on August 22, 2014, 04:30:25 PM
I recently listened to the 4th, 7th and 9th by Walter. I'd keep these over the whole corpus of Abbado's Bruckner any day. Not that the latter is bad. It is simply constipated emotionally in a way that finds its outlet in the music making. It is a rare feeling. It's like the music needs an enema.

Greetings Andre'!  Do you have any information on whether Bruno Walter ever conducted all the symphonies?

I recall that he refused to conduct Mahler's Seventh Symphony, which he called "weak."  I wonder whether he knew the other Bruckner symphonies.



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on August 22, 2014, 05:48:49 PM
Hi Cato ! Besides the aforementioned, Walter only conducted the 8th, and rarely at that.

I guess the 6th didn't catch his fancy and yet, I melt at the prospect of a Walter 6th !
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: knight66 on August 22, 2014, 10:09:33 PM
Yes, André, the music is indeed constipated, that is apt. I was equally disappointed with the Lucerne Mahler 2 which had praise heeped onto it. I wondered if it was my lack of discernment.

The musicians clearly loved working with Abbado. It reminds me of a recent concert of Strauss tone poems that I attended. The conductor was Maazel. The musicians were all smiling at the end, by no means a normal thing here. He was in a way a musician's musician, professional and good to work with, but the concert was boring, quite an achievement with the Alpine amd Also Sprach.

I have several times been tempted to get the Lucerne DVD Bruckner 5th, my favourite Bruckner symphony, I asssume you guys would advise against it, no miracles that day I suppose?

Mike
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on August 23, 2014, 03:09:10 PM
It may be quite interesting to witness the interaction between Abbado and his musicians. In a work as complex structurally as the Fifth, the visual aspect may certainly be counted as a plus factor.

That being said, I can think of at least half a dozen audio-only recordings that capture my attention from first note to last.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 24, 2014, 04:52:28 AM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on August 24, 2014, 03:40:02 AM
FWIW I saw them perform the 5th in London in 2011, and found it a remarkable, life-affirming experience, for once deserving of the over-used epithet luminous.  Yet many responded differently, and as strongly.  One hardcore Brucknerian with many years' dedicated service remarked disparagingly to me afterwards, "I expect you probably enjoyed that".  Before going on to comment, with disgust, that he supposed Bruckner's music would now become popular. >:( ::) ;D

:D

Quote from: André on August 23, 2014, 03:09:10 PM
It may be quite interesting to witness the interaction between Abbado and his musicians. In a work as complex structurally as the Fifth, the visual aspect may certainly be counted as a plus factor.

That being said, I can think of at least half a dozen audio-only recordings that capture my attention from first note to last.

Hearing a concert in person - even if the interpretation or the work is mediocre, or if the work is not to one's liking - can be an interesting experience in spite of such factors...but may not counterbalance them by any means!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on August 24, 2014, 06:06:12 AM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on August 24, 2014, 03:40:02 AMOne hardcore Brucknerian with many years' dedicated service remarked disparagingly to me afterwards, "I expect you probably enjoyed that".
That must be the same fellow who sat in front of me at both Yannick Nezet-Seguin concerts I attended and made cruel, hilarious remarks about YNS's artistic abilities.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on August 24, 2014, 04:12:08 PM
I was in the audience (in a church) where the eigth and ninth were recorded by YNS and his Orchestre Métropolitain. YNS certainely elevated the experience to a very high degree; and yet, as a 'seasoned and dedicated brucknerian', I couldn't help thinking this was an excellent lecture of a very difficult score. No mean achievement, to be sure. But I heard greater artistic experiences from Leitner, Decker, Blomstedt in Bruckner.

Beware of "seasoned and dedicated so-called" experts... They are as prejudiced as anybody. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on August 30, 2014, 12:50:40 PM
Short comparison between the Wand-Kölner RSO and Rögner Berlin RSO versions of the 7th symphony.

Both orchestras are excellent. The Cologne band is probably Germany's second best symphony orchestra. Wand is very good at shaping and driving home the last two movements. There is nothing wrong with his tempi in I and II, but the readings are slightly neutral. Non-committal, flabby, that kind of thing. It's not something actively wrong, just a degree of tension too low.

I under Rögner is 2 minutes shorter. The music blooms and erupts as the case demands (superb timpani roll, cresc. at the end of the recap (around 16:20). Then the coda has all that's missing in Wand's interpretation: a sense of coming home, of catharsis, a true climactic event. The Adagio is fast by the stopwatch (under 19 mins), but very slow in feeling. Tempo accelerates in the second theme before falling back to more rumination (splendid horns and trombones). And so it goes throughout. This Adagio lives and breathes. It is not a monument.

III and IV go really well too. The (East) Berlin orchestra has a full, rounded, deep tone that anchors the music tonally as it moves along swiftly. I won't say it surpasses Wand-Cologne, but it is different: burly and earthy vs athletic and theatrical.

The Wand is a very good interpretation, the Rögner an almost great one. Both are excellently played and recorded.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on August 31, 2014, 11:56:52 AM
Still recovering from yesterday's West Coast Brucknerthon.  Here's the playlist

• Symphonic Prelude: Blair/Moores School Symphony Orchestra (Abruckner.com CD, 2013)
• Symphony in F-minor: Young/Hamburg Philharmonic (Oehms Classics CD, 2013)
• Symphony No. 1: Jurowski/London Philharmonic (Air check, 2011)
• Symphony No. 0: Barenboim/Chicago Symphony Orchestra (Deutsche Grammophon CD, 1979)
• Symphony No. 2: Schmid/SWF Symphony Orchestra (Air check, 1965)
• Symphony No. 3: Maazel/Munich Philharmonic (Sony CD, 2012)
• Symphony No. 4: Hollreiser/Bamberg Symphony Orchestra (Grand Slam CD, 1959)
• Symphony No. 5: Kegel/Leipzig Radio Symphony Orchestra (Weitblick CD, 1977)
• Symphony No. 6: Stein/Vienna Philharmonic (Decca CD, 1972)
• Symphony No. 7: Mravinsky/Leningrad Philharmonic (EMI CD, 1967)
• Symphony No. 8: Furtwängler/Vienna Philharmonic (Grand Slam CD, 1944)
• Symphony No. 9: Abbado/Lucerne Festival Orchestra (Deutsche Grammophon CD, 2013)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on August 31, 2014, 01:37:55 PM
Nice... I think the Stein 6th is a real under-the-radar gem.

I've been spending some time with the reconstructed finale of the 9th under BPO/Rattle. Much of it quite convincing to me, though the coda seems absurdly truncated. The chorale theme drawn from that strange string passage in the third movement is particularly effective.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on August 31, 2014, 01:48:20 PM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on August 31, 2014, 01:24:35 PM
Bit much to ask after all that, but do you happen to recall what the sound quality was like on this one?

It was a transfer from a Unicorn Lp, so there was actually a bit of additional surface noise from the Lp.  Note that listening was over the host's vintage JBL speakers and there was a lot of party background noise.  Nice warm sound, but I just finished listening to the transfer in the M&A Bruckner box, and I hear no reason to prefer this Grand Slam CD.

I think the latest and greatest that Henry Fogel endorsed was in an Orfeo box, ORFEO 834118:

QuoteThis is another Magnetofonkonzert, given only once. It is one of Furtwängler's greatest surviving Bruckner performances, and it has never sounded so good. It has had a spotty history. Early releases (Unicorn, Music & Arts, even DG) were plagued by what sounded like tape flutter, making sustained woodwinds sound as if they were underwater Many of those editions were also pitched a bit sharp. The first really listenable transfer was a two-disc Japanese EMI box, hard to find and very expensive. EMI eventually came up with something as good on one disc, and Pristine and Chibas improved on that somewhat. But Orfeo is better yet. The orchestral sound is more natural, with no sense of any kind of artificial boosting or enhancement of any part of the orchestral palette, and with a more naturally balanced frequency response from highs to lows.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 31, 2014, 01:56:53 PM
Quote from: edward on August 31, 2014, 01:37:55 PM
I've been spending some time with the reconstructed finale of the 9th under BPO/Rattle. Much of it quite convincing to me, though the coda seems absurdly truncated.

I used to think that too, but when I first heard the 8th that was my reaction as well, and the 7th isn't too long-winded in that department either.

I think the the most amazing revelation for the reconstructed finale is the fugue, no ever wrote a fugue like that before (or has since), it sounds like music from the 25th century.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on August 31, 2014, 02:01:15 PM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on August 31, 2014, 01:55:39 PM
Thanks, you have answered exactly the question in my mind.  I have had that Grand Slam CD on a wishlist for some time but haven't bought it because ultimately I doubted it was any better than the M&A (which I also have.)

Out of interest, what did you think of the Abbado/Lucerne 9th?

Glad to see that Kegel 5th.  One of his 8ths is a permanent resident in my Top 5. :)

Unfortunately, I didn't make it to the 9th.  We started at 9AM, and I left around 9:30 pm, after the 8th.  More than 12 hours of craft beer, rich food, and Bruckner was nearly too much for me.

The Kegel 5th was one of the more popular recordings of the day, along with the Jurowski 1 and the Stein 6th.  The Mravinsky 7 was wild and unique.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on August 31, 2014, 02:03:44 PM

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kbBJMf2qoKg/U85r_6z2dcI/AAAAAAAAHeM/BDnyUcuWMIM/s1600/notesfromthesalzburgfestival2014.gif)


Notes from the 2014 Salzburg Festival ( 17 )
Anton Bruckner Cycle • Bruckner VI


(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ppxpu0XAcTA/VAGQSIHZ6qI/AAAAAAAAHso/tcPmGaiMOLM/s1600/Salzburg_Muti-3_Vienna-Phil_Bruckner6_(c)Silvia-Lelli_laurson_600.jpg)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/08/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-17.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/08/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-17.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on August 31, 2014, 02:13:52 PM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on August 31, 2014, 02:07:31 PM
My kind of day.:)  But half a world away alas.:(

Well, if you're ever in the San Diego area on the Saturday before Labor Day...

And there's also the Brucknerathon (note the A), which is next weekend:

http://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/news/the2014eastcoastbr/ 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: not edward on August 31, 2014, 02:47:46 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 31, 2014, 01:56:53 PM
I used to think that too, but when I first heard the 8th that was my reaction as well, and the 7th isn't too long-winded in that department either.

I think the the most amazing revelation for the reconstructed finale is the fugue, no ever wrote a fugue like that before (or has since), it sounds like music from the 25th century.
What really comes through clearly to me is just how ambitious Bruckner's conception of the finale was.  Perhaps the original first movement of the Third can match it in terms of a Mahlerian "the symphony must contain the world," but I can't really think of anything else in Bruckner that does.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 16, 2014, 12:25:04 AM
I finally overcame my innate meanness and splashed out on this

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51G6STCHW7L._AA160_.jpg)

I have to say that it's worth every penny (now out of the catalogue, s/hand prices start at $80).

I used to think I had a handle on my favourite recordings of the 8th and 9th, but these performances  have turned those upside down.

The Eighth is the most amazing Eighth I have ever heard, I thought Karajan was good, but Horenstein makes the brass roar like you've never heard it roar before. Karajan's recordings are big stuffed sofas compared to this recording. I thought it was all going to fall apart in the finale, I've never heard the Eighth finale sound so sectional.... at first, but then Horenstein performances his customary magic, and the ending draws the threads together like no other, I've never heard a more tumultuous and triumphant ending to this symphony.

The Ninth is ever better (the sound is better too). The first movement sounds awe-inspiring and completely connected and inevitable throughout, the scherzo is pure evil, the slow movement isn't particularly slow, but it has a soul-searching and desolate quality I have never heard to this extent.

I think tomorrow I will remove the applause from the end of the slow movement and listen to it together with Rattle's finale.

;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on October 19, 2014, 04:41:28 PM
I have had it for a few years on my shelves but never had the nerves occasion to listen to it: Peter Jean Marthé' s 2006 Neufassung of the Third symphony. For those who know this conductor, they will have an idea that this is a curate's egg of the strangest variety. For those not in the know, Marthé has a reputation as both a maverick and a kook in the Bruckner world.

Here in the Third he put versions of 1873, 1877 and 1889 in the mixer, threw in the 1876 Adagio for good measure, reorchestrated bits here and there (contrabass tuba, cymbals), reworked the order of the inner movements (why not ?) and conjured up the ghost of Celibidache to produce this potent, eccentric mixture, lasting 88 minutes, or 35 minutes more that the Jochum DG everyone knows. Recorded in the extra-long reverb space of the St-Florian StiftsBasilika for a modicum of historical endorsement and authenticity.

Well, I liked it. I will not come back to it often, but I was impressed. The guy has king size cojones all right, but he still produces musical results that have cogency and validity.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 27, 2014, 12:49:37 PM
Cross-posting here from the WAYLT thread so our correspondence will have a bit more shelf life:


Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 27, 2014, 11:35:40 AM
D.D. always makes great recs. And this is a disc I've had in my wish list since he mentioned it a few months back. Must...pull...the...trigger...soon!  ;D

Speaking of great recs, I just received Dohnnayi's Bruckner 4th you recommended, GS. I'm under the weather right now so I'm not sure when I can get to it but a spot-listen promises great things!




(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91c4aMBm-6L._SL1500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 27, 2014, 02:46:13 PM
Quote from: André on October 19, 2014, 04:41:28 PM
I have had it for a few years on my shelves but never had the nerves occasion to listen to it: Peter Jean Marthé' s 2006 Neufassung of the Third symphony. For those who know this conductor, they will have an idea that this is a curate's egg of the strangest variety. For those not in the know, Marthé has a reputation as both a maverick and a kook in the Bruckner world.

Here in the Third he put versions of 1873, 1877 and 1889 in the mixer, threw in the 1876 Adagio for good measure, reorchestrated bits here and there (contrabass tuba, cymbals), reworked the order of the inner movements (why not ?) and conjured up the ghost of Celibidache to produce this potent, eccentric mixture, lasting 88 minutes, or 35 minutes more than the Jochum DG everyone knows. Recorded in the extra-long reverb space of the St-Florian StiftsBasilika for a modicum of historical endorsement and authenticity.

Well, I liked it. I will not come back to it often, but I was impressed. The guy has king size cojones all right, but he still produces musical results that have cogency and validity.

Many thanks Andre' for this information!   A modicum of authenticity: well, at least Marthé did not have a seance with Bruckner to create a fifth movement!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: knight66 on October 27, 2014, 10:43:31 PM
Well André, that got my juices flowing.....in a good way. It is half past six a.m.; but I am treating the household to the Marthé Third Remix from Spotify and am enjoying it. I hope the others are too, they should be up and about anyway.

Thanks,

Mike
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on October 28, 2014, 05:37:27 PM
Worth a listen for the adventurous, I say. For the others, it's still worth a listen. You never know when the Bruckner ghost will seize you... >:D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on October 28, 2014, 10:24:52 PM
I also tried the opening of his Third on Spotify yesterday but it didn't stir much interest; too slow and not at all mysterious as it should be. I'll return to it at some other time. The (his) Ninth's finale sounded much more interesting, in a perverse kind of way.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on December 04, 2014, 06:57:20 PM
I posted this elsewhere and got no reply... thoughts/comparisons/contrastisons on Barenboim Chicago vs. Berlin?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on December 04, 2014, 08:02:55 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 04, 2014, 06:57:20 PM
I posted this elsewhere and got no reply... thoughts/comparisons/contrastisons on Barenboim Chicago vs. Berlin?
I meant to reply but must have forgotten. I picked up three of the Chicago cheap at the local used CD store. The owner's a lucky fellow; he got me to pay twice what he gave me a few months later.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 04, 2014, 08:09:57 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 04, 2014, 06:57:20 PM
I posted this elsewhere and got no reply... thoughts/comparisons/contrastisons on Barenboim Chicago vs. Berlin?

I've only heard bits and pieces of both cycles. On the whole, I prefer the Berlin - it was DB's second go-round and his conception seemed more mature. I do like the punchy CSO account of the 1st Symphony, an underrated work. I love the Berlin 8th as a fast and dramatic reading: reminds me a bit of Mravinsky's take, but with much better sound.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on December 06, 2014, 07:23:20 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 04, 2014, 06:57:20 PM
I posted this elsewhere and got no reply... thoughts/comparisons/contrastisons on Barenboim Chicago vs. Berlin?

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5qNdvoe4EdM/T385kcE3K6I/AAAAAAAAB6E/nR1C_9bD0sI/s1600/DIP-YOUR-EARS.png)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TY8K-mH0ge0/U9Gbh-FJY9I/AAAAAAAAHgE/PsQK_4xKmQc/s1600/Salzburg_Barenboim_Bruckner_WPh_laurson_600.jpg)


Chicago is brash and brassy and impetuous... to the point where the 4th is actually quite a lot of fun again.

Berlin (Phil) I never liked; particularly not the 5th, although the First and Ninth are excellent. The sound isn't all that great, I noticed on revisiting... quite noisy.

Despite my personal disinclination to either, I'd say that the Berlin is probably the more interesting, perhaps even the more worthwhile one.

In any case, it's his THIRD cycle (DVD and CD on Accentus and DG) that is shaping up to be his easily best yet! Stunning Fourth (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/11/dip-your-ears-no-163-visual-bruckner.html) and very fine Fifth, so far. (Sloppy as f&#* Salzburg / WPh 4th this year at the S'burg Festival (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/07/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-2.html).)

See also: Survey of Bruckner Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aRBqVEFm6bU/UPm2FsFICBI/AAAAAAAAF8M/EMaiDsgkkPE/s1600/Anton_Bruckner_II_laurson_600.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: EigenUser on January 02, 2015, 03:12:28 PM
I just listened to this outstanding BBC radio special on Bruckner 6. Has anyone seen it before?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01znsdm
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 02, 2015, 03:23:19 PM
I'll say and I'll say it again, I've been singing the praises for Bruckner's 6th since I arrived on this forum. It's about time you people 'woke up' and smelt the apfelstrudel. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on January 04, 2015, 04:46:32 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 02, 2015, 03:23:19 PM
I'll say and I'll say it again, I've been singing the praises for Bruckner's 6th since I arrived on this forum. It's about time you people 'woke up' and smelt the apfelstrudel. ;) ;D

Great work, especially in the old Klemperer EMI recording. Anyone hear the Tintner Bruckner 5 on Testament? Bought my Bruckner-loving brother the Van Beinum set on Decca.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 07, 2015, 05:38:36 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on January 02, 2015, 03:12:28 PM
I just listened to this outstanding BBC radio special on Bruckner 6. Has anyone seen it before?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01znsdm

Thanks for the link: I will need to wait until this afternoon to hear it.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 02, 2015, 03:23:19 PM
I'll say and I'll say it again, I've been singing the praises for Bruckner's 6th since I arrived on this forum. It's about time you people 'woke up' and smelt the apfelstrudel. ;) ;D

Amen!  "Die Sechste ist die Keckste!"
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 07, 2015, 03:52:48 PM
True story (fresh slice of life - it happened two days ago). My old friend who usually abhorrs all things brucknerian, asked me for a recommendation (read: borrowing from my collection) for the 4th. I suggested: "Why not listen to the first couple of minutes in a few versions ?" I played the following versions (beginning of I, up to appr. 2:30):

Otmar Suitner and the Berlin RSO
Barenboim and the CSO
Böhm and the WP
Oundjian and the Toronto SO
Klemperer ad the BRSO

He was very surprised at the variety of approaches - different works, almost. He rejected Barenboim  :'( ("pompier" - or trashy - he said) and chose Böhm and Klemp. I wonder what he'll come out with when I see him again in a couple of months.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on January 20, 2015, 05:02:41 AM
Quote from: André on January 07, 2015, 03:52:48 PM
True story (fresh slice of life - it happened two days ago). My old friend who usually abhorrs all things brucknerian, asked me for a recommendation (read: borrowing from my collection) for the 4th. I suggested: "Why not listen to the first couple of minutes in a few versions ?" I played the following versions (beginning of I, up to appr. 2:30):

Otmar Suitner and the Berlin RSO
Barenboim and the CSO
Böhm and the WP
Oundjian and the Toronto SO
Klemperer ad the BRSO

He was very surprised at the variety of approaches - different works, almost. He rejected Barenboim  :'( ("pompier" - or trashy - he said) and chose Böhm ...

What intuitive, wonderful ears! :-)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/11/dip-your-ears-no-163-visual-bruckner.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/11/dip-your-ears-no-163-visual-bruckner.html)
Quote...[T]he popular Fourth Symphony, with the Berlin Staatskapelle live from the Berlin Philharmonic
Hall is his most natural, satisfying Bruckner yet, not so youthful brash and stridently impressive as
his Chicago iterations (DG), not as polished and strangely listless...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 20, 2015, 03:50:12 PM
Coincidentally, as I write I am listening to the 7th in the Barenboim BP set. Very nice, if not of the utmost profundity or naturalness of utterance. Pacing is slightly too even and unvaried, with extra smooth peanut butter textures. I got a little impatient midway in the slow movement. At that point the tempo has to pick up some speed to generate the required urgency.

This is easily the most elusive and hard to 'get' Bruckner symphony.

This Barenboim effort succeeds in not putting a foot wrong. What's missing is missing, and what's there is fine. But the work demands a little more: the conductor must pick up and exploit one of the red lines that crisscross the work. For sheer brainy AND beautifully contoured conducting, I chose Böhm and the WP. For the utmost in elegance, emotion and elevated spirituality, Giulini and the WP. For grandeur, massiveness allied to gritty strength, Blomstedt and the Staatskapelle, Dresden. For deliquescent self-absorption in the most comfy Simmons Beautyrest framework: Karajan and the WP. For nerve, resolve, splendid determination and the ability to ejaculate at just the right time: Beinum and the Amsterdam Concertgebouw.

And so on and so forth. I would be remiss not to mention the felicities of Schuricht, Haitink II, Rögner, Wand Cologne and probably another half dozen I'm too lazy to detail at this time - Sanderling, Böhm BRSO, Gielen, Rudolf, Knappertsbusch... The list is far from exhaustive. There are even versions by Toscanini and Charles Munch (not recommended)  ???
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 24, 2015, 03:39:33 PM
New listenings. Herbert Blomstedt' s 7th in Dresden has for some years been my favourite performance. I'm not among those who think this is the Master's best work. Blomstedt makes it sound so organic, powerful, divinatory. Therefore I was curious to her his Romantic from the same forces and stable (the Denon recording crew).

Blomstedt's Romantic has all these virtues, and then some: there is a real sense of symphonic allegroing, power, majesty, organic progression, mighty onward flow and splendidly virile playing from the indomitable Dresdeners. All captured in translucent, well-balanced sound (crank up the volume though, otherwise it will sound tame).

Daniel Barenboim's 5th in Berlin is very much like his misbegotten Chicago half-baked, too fast previous reading. The overall timing is ok. At 72 minutes it clocks in a few minutes slower (!) than one of my benchmarks, the wondrous Berlin RSO version under Suitner. And a full 6-7 minutes faster than my other benchmarks, Klemperer's New Philharmonia versions which, although slower offer a trenchancy and might that escape this on-off, on again, off again version. Barn-bing-bang-boom treats the work like it needs help, a mortal sin in Bruckner. The orchestra plays splendidly and is well recorded.

Listened to so far in this Barenboim Berlin cycle are symphonies 1-5 and 7. I count 2, 3 and 7 as successes, 1 as a good reading and 4, 5 as ill-conceived. Oh yes ! I forgot Helgoland (coupled with the 1st): one of Bruckner's very last works, Barenboim does it justice (not so in Chicago), but the Wyn morris version knocks it off (and all other contenders) with little apparent effort. One of the triumphs of the Bruckner discography.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 24, 2015, 04:17:58 PM
Quote from: André on January 24, 2015, 03:39:33 PM
New listenings. Herbert Blomstedt' s 7th in Dresden has for some years been my favourite performance. I'm not among those who think this is the Master's best work. Blomstedt makes it sound so organic, powerful, divinatory. Therefore I was curious to her his Romantic from the same forces and stable (the Denon recording crew).

Blomstedt's Romantic has all these virtues, and then some: there is a real sense of symphonic allegroing, power, majesty, organic progression, mighty onward flow and splendidly virile playing from the indomitable Dresdeners. All captured in translucent, well-balanced sound (crank up the volume though, otherwise it will sound tame).

Daniel Barenboim's 5th in Berlin is very much like his misbegotten Chicago half-baked, too fast previous reading. The overall timing is ok. At 72 minutes it clocks in a few minutes slower (!) than one of my benchmarks, the wondrous Berlin RSO version under Suitner. And a full 6-7 minutes faster than my other benchmarks, Klemperer's New Philharmonia versions which, although slower offer a trenchancy and might that escape this on-off, on again, off again version. Barn-bing-bang-boom treats the work like it needs help, a mortal sin in Bruckner. The orchestra plays splendidly and is well recorded.

Listened to so far in this Barenboim Berlin cycle are symphonies 1-5 and 7. I count 2, 3 and 7 as successes, 1 as a good reading and 4, 5 as ill-conceived. Oh yes ! I forgot Helgoland (coupled with the 1st): one of Bruckner's very last works, Barenboim does it justice (not so in Chicago), but the Wyn morris version knocks it off (and all other contenders) with little apparent effort. One of the triumphs of the Bruckner discography.

Many thanks for the comments, Andre'!

Concerning erratic readings of the Fifth: I recall a reviewer complaining about the DGG Jochum recording, which he liked until Jochum "halves" the speed for the  last pages of the Finale.  The reviewer believed that, if anything, a case should be made for an accelerando!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 29, 2015, 05:14:18 AM
Hello, Abbey,

I'm about to dive into Blomstedt's cycle with Leipzig, although quite slowly because it's a little expensive. Any comments on this cycle or the individual recoridngs? I'm mostly interested in the 3rd because of it being the original 1873 version, which I'm currently attempting to hear all those available.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Pat B on January 29, 2015, 09:43:32 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 29, 2015, 05:14:18 AM
Hello, Abbey,

I'm about to dive into Blomstedt's cycle with Leipzig, although quite slowly because it's a little expensive. Any comments on this cycle or the individual recoridngs? I'm mostly interested in the 3rd because of it being the original 1873 version, which I'm currently attempting to hear all those available.

No idea, but good to see you back, and I still owe you one.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 29, 2015, 10:19:05 AM
Quote from: Pat B on January 29, 2015, 09:43:32 AM
No idea, but good to see you back, and I still owe you one.

Hi, Pat.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 29, 2015, 10:59:44 AM
My recent Bruckner purchases...

Continuing to explore DRD's Bruckner cycle. The "Nullte" is still one I'm getting to know, but it certainly deserves attention. So far all the DRD/B.Linz recordings I've heard offer great sound with solid performances, and this one is no different. Of the four performances I own of the Nullte, this Arte Nova disc boasts the deepest sound quality so I'll probably use this one as my main for a while as I explore it more. I love the opening to the finale, a real pleasant foundation to begin on.   

[asin]B003VIZ8MI[/asin]


This one is a bit of a surprise. New Philharmonia Orchestra of Westphalia and conductor Johannes Wildner are new names for me, but don't let that deter you if you are also unfamiliar. This is not only a great way to explore the various versions of the 3rd, but to hear them played beautifully. An easy recommendation for someone beginning to expand their collection of 3rd variations.

[asin]B0000W3XPW[/asin]


Metecic's 5th is nicely constructed, and features the Schalk verison of the finale's coda which includes triangle and cymbals with a change on the timpani part. Easy to say it was a shock to hear the first time, especially since listening to the 5th for 20 years now without them. On the fence really, but it's interesting and really doesn't intrude too much because the percussion is properly placed. The controversial Venzago cycle concludes with quite possibly the most striking performance. Most of Venzago's Bruckner has been on the faster side of tempo when compared to the rest of the field, but this one might be the most extreme. It's 14 minutes faster than the fastest recording I already own (Barenboim/Berlin). I do feel that Bruckner can sound right in various tempi, it really boils down to the conductor being capable of piecing the movements together in a fluid manner and making it all relative from beginning to end. And Venzago is capable of this, as he is a master of his own style, he's 100% aware of what he wants to create from the score. Not that he's right over another interpretation (and who really is?). For a fun comparison, Celibidache's Adagio clocks in at 24:14, Venzago finishes in at 12:14.

[asin]B000N6UGOQ[/asin] [asin]B00N5EINIY[/asin]


Another DRD/B.Linz, this time the 7th. As I said above, solid, but the world is busy with great 7th recordings. For me performances of the 7th live and die on the strength of the finale, which I feel to be the weakest of the four movements. Here, things get a little sluggish in the brass heavy moments, but overall a good listen.

[asin]B001BWQW6M[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 29, 2015, 11:13:04 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 29, 2015, 05:14:18 AM
Hello, Abbey,

I'm about to dive into Blomstedt's cycle with Leipzig, although quite slowly because it's a little expensive. Any comments on this cycle or the individual recoridngs? I'm mostly interested in the 3rd because of it being the original 1873 version, which I'm currently attempting to hear all those available.

I don't know about anybody else but I've long been looking for a second opinion of Blomstedt's Leipzig set. I know Jens recommends it but to me he's a bit pallid in his praise when his description basically amounts to (IIRC) "there are no wrong steps...nothing is misplaced".

No mean feat in putting all your ducks in a neat row so big kudos to Blomstedt for his achievement!

But.....if Blomstedt is merely "safe" (even "successfully safe") I'm not sure that's gonna cut it for me these days in Bruckner. Dunno...

I do have Blomstedt's 4 (San Francisco) and 7 (Dresden). They've always been "safe bets" for me over the years but I don't reach for them as often as others nowadays. I've grown to love Dohnanyi/Cleveland and Jochum/Dresden has long been a mainstay.

So whatever you have to say Greg about Blomstedt/Leipzig I'll be taking notes! :)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on January 29, 2015, 06:45:32 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on January 29, 2015, 11:13:04 AM
I don't know about anybody else but I've long been looking for a second opinion of Blomstedt's Leipzig set. I know Jens recommends it but to me he's a bit pallid in his praise when his description basically amounts to (IIRC) "there are no wrong steps...nothing is misplaced".

No mean feat in putting all your ducks in a neat row so big kudos to Blomstedt for his achievement!

But.....if Blomstedt is merely "safe" (even "successfully safe") I'm not sure that's gonna cut it for me these days in Bruckner. Dunno...

I do have Blomstedt's 4 (San Francisco) and 7 (Dresden). They've always been "safe bets" for me over the years but I don't reach for them as often as others nowadays. I've grown to love Dohnanyi/Cleveland and Jochum/Dresden has long been a mainstay.

So whatever you have to say Greg about Blomstedt/Leipzig I'll be taking notes! :)

Maybe a little pallid. But  I think Blomstedt in general (surely also his Dresden 7) is more than just safe. It's just understated. The effect of the whole is greater than any individual element. Sort of like Backhaus in Bruckner.
True... that's not all that Bruckner can or need be, but it's one aspect of Bruckner perfection and few do it better than Blomstedt (or in better sound than the current Leipzigers).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 30, 2015, 04:54:10 AM
Hi, Jens and D.D., hope you're doing well. Thanks for chiming in.

Another recent purchased disc I forgot to mention, the 1873 version of the 3rd performed by Nagano and Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin. Similar to their 6th, this 3rd performance is musically lavish and exciting. Makes an excellent choice for a premiere recording of the original 3rd. My only quibble is I like the finale to dance a little more in the second theme introduced by the strings, but Nagano's shaping (and the orchestras playing) of this section is so lovely that I easily settle for a slow dance.

[asin]B00K1Q3VNG[/asin]


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 30, 2015, 03:31:08 PM
Last year I heard Yannick Nézet-Séguin conduct the same Original Version here in Montreal. This is fast becoming an acknowledged substitute for the truncated 1888-89 version. The times they are a'changin'...

Hélène Grimaud performed the Brahms d minor concerto in the first part  :-* :laugh: ::) ;D :o
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 02, 2015, 01:29:37 PM
My friend Mark Doran, a British musicologist (he also takes care of the legacy of Deryck Cooke, of Mahler Ten fame), appeals to every Brucknerian and other music-lovers for something very specific: old radio broadcasts, not of concerts, but of talks about composers. Here is the link for those interested: https://markdoran.wordpress.com/2015/02/01/cmon-everyone-join-the-hunt/#more-1882
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 02, 2015, 03:02:59 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 29, 2015, 10:59:44 AM
My recent Bruckner purchases...

Continuing to explore DRD's Bruckner cycle. The "Nullte" is still one I'm getting to know, but it certainly deserves attention. So far all the DRD/B.Linz recordings I've heard offer great sound with solid performances, and this one is no different. Of the four performances I own of the Nullte, this Arte Nova disc boasts the deepest sound quality so I'll probably use this one as my main for a while as I explore it more. I love the opening to the finale, a real pleasant foundation to begin on.   

[asin]B003VIZ8MI[/asin]


Last Spring I had the opportunity to hear Die Nullte in a live performance at the Cathedral in Toledo with the Toledo Symphony conducted by Stefan Sanderling.  Certainly they made a great case for this symphony!  More recordings can only help!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 03, 2015, 04:59:21 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 02, 2015, 03:02:59 PM
Last Spring I had the opportunity to hear Die Nullte in a live performance at the Cathedral in Toledo with the Toledo Symphony conducted by Stefan Sanderling.  Certainly they made a great case for this symphony!  More recordings can only help!

Hi, Cato,

Believe it or not, I still haven't seen a Bruckner symphony performed live. But that's about to change this summer.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 03, 2015, 05:46:01 AM
Re: Herbert Blomstedt 6th with San Fransisco Symphony

I do have the 6th recordng with SFS and have always loved it. I like Jens quote, "The effect of the whole is greater then any individual element." Which I think also explains why it made a small if even noticeable splash in the 6th comparison. It's perhaps not perceived as a very sentimental reading, or at least not so when compared to others, but it's consistent and the contrasts between themes and sections are very dynamic. I recently listened to Blomstedt along with the score, and it seemed as if the score and Bruckner's notations were imbedded precisely, considering tempo markings can be slightly subjective the reading was extremely close to being exactly what was printed. So is that what would make listeners consider to be unsentimental? Or safe? Not sure, but now since I've followed along with the score, I now feel that Blomstedt has a very strong passion regarding this work, and more importantly, passion for Bruckner's score. Take the finale for an example, there are more obvious tempo and dynamic changes in Blomstedt's than almost more of the 30+ recoridngs of the 6th I've heard. His fasts are bright and crisp, and his retardandos are extreme, but to these ears it accentuates the various colors from the score. I'm still moving inches closer to his Leipzig set.

Two for the road:

Two of the 6th recoridngs that have made a strong impression on me since the comparison ended is Jochum/Dresden on EMI and the Van Zweden/Netherlands. What really first threw me off of the Jochum/Dresden is the harshness of the brass, primarily the trumpets, it's unbearably annoying at times, even seeming as if the intonation of the players is suffering. But overall it's powerful, and I prefer it over Jochum's DG 6th because of the sound, the strings mostly in the lower registers are more full-bodied sounding. And Jochum knows how to drive this piece forward, it's a roller coaster for sure.
The Van Zweden is interesting and beautifully played. It's not often I hear a performace where the finale is played at a similar broad pace as the opening Maestoso, or rather with the similar broad atmosphere. Van Zweden/Netherlands create bold bookends to the symphony, in the symphony's closing coda when the trombones bring back the triplet theme from the Maestoso I truly feel the piece has gone full circle and returned home, almost more so than any other recoridng.

See, this is what happens when I'm off from work and sitting at a cafe drinking coffee, I think too much.  ;D
Also my iPad is beginning to show its age, or rather not able to handle the dozens of OS updates, and continues to make it difficult for me to type so please ignore any spelling errors.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 03, 2015, 06:34:15 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 03, 2015, 04:59:21 AM
Hi, Cato,

Believe it or not, I still haven't seen a Bruckner symphony performed live. But that's about to change this summer.

In the past decade or so it has become a tradition for the Toledo Symphony to perform a Bruckner symphony in the cathedral.

This year:  Symphony #1 in early May.  Worth the drive!  Toledo also has one of the greatest art museums in the U.S. with a separate museum on glass history.

Not to be forgotten: The Mudhens!   :o ???

http://www.toledosymphony.com/index.php?src=events&srctype=detail&category=Mozart%20%26%20More&refno=351 (http://www.toledosymphony.com/index.php?src=events&srctype=detail&category=Mozart%20%26%20More&refno=351)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on February 03, 2015, 06:44:12 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 03, 2015, 06:34:15 AMToledo also has one of the greatest art museums in the U.S. with a separate museum on glass history.
Is the El Greco painting of Toledo there? ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 03, 2015, 06:48:56 AM
Quote from: North Star on February 03, 2015, 06:44:12 AM
Is the El Greco painting of Toledo there? ;)

No, but two other paintings by El Greco are!  Not to mention several by Rembrandt, Rubens, etc. etc. etc.

Anselm Kiefer's Athanor is not be missed!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on February 03, 2015, 07:17:02 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 03, 2015, 06:48:56 AM
No, but two other paintings by El Greco are!  Not to mention several by Rembrandt, Rubens, etc. etc. etc.

Anselm Kiefer's Athanor is not be missed!
Very nice, I'd certainly pay that museum (for) a visit if I ever happened to be in the neighbourhood. Which is to say, it's bloody unlikely to happen.  ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 03, 2015, 08:30:33 AM
Quote from: North Star on February 03, 2015, 07:17:02 AM
Very nice, I'd certainly pay that museum (for) a visit if I ever happened to be in the neighbourhood. Which is to say, it's bloody unlikely to happen.  ::)

Well, when you make your first transcontinental road trip from New York to San Francisco (and of course you have to make that journey someday ;) ), just get on Interstate 80 and head west, young man. You'll eventually arrive in Toledo Ohio...can't miss it  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 03, 2015, 08:31:54 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 03, 2015, 08:30:33 AM
Well, when you make your first transcontinental road trip from New York to San Francisco (and of course you have to make that journey someday ;) ), just get on Interstate 80 and head west, young man. You'll eventually arrive in Toledo Ohio...can't miss it  8)

Sarge

"Looking for America..."   :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on February 03, 2015, 09:02:29 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 03, 2015, 08:30:33 AM
Well, when you make your first transcontinental road trip from New York to San Francisco (and of course you have to make that journey someday ;) ), just get on Interstate 80 and head west, young man. You'll eventually arrive in Toledo Ohio...can't miss it  8)

Sarge
Of course, I'd have to get to New York first..
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 09, 2015, 07:59:18 AM
I'm guessing that somewhere in these pages this has been mentioned before, but a great site that I've been frequenting and is very useful is www.abruckner.com
Its a complete discography of Bruckner's music, and seperates each version of them. It's been a real gem of a guide when exploring the 3rd and it's numerous editions and recordings.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 09, 2015, 08:44:34 AM
Quote from: André on January 24, 2015, 03:39:33 PM
New listenings. Herbert Blomstedt' s 7th in Dresden has for some years been my favourite performance. I'm not among those who think this is the Master's best work. Blomstedt makes it sound so organic, powerful, divinatory. Therefore I was curious to her his Romantic from the same forces and stable (the Denon recording crew).

Blomstedt's Romantic has all these virtues, and then some: there is a real sense of symphonic allegroing, power, majesty, organic progression, mighty onward flow and splendidly virile playing from the indomitable Dresdeners. All captured in translucent, well-balanced sound (crank up the volume though, otherwise it will sound tame).

Daniel Barenboim's 5th in Berlin is very much like his misbegotten Chicago half-baked, too fast previous reading. The overall timing is ok. At 72 minutes it clocks in a few minutes slower (!) than one of my benchmarks, the wondrous Berlin RSO version under Suitner. And a full 6-7 minutes faster than my other benchmarks, Klemperer's New Philharmonia versions which, although slower offer a trenchancy and might that escape this on-off, on again, off again version. Barn-bing-bang-boom treats the work like it needs help, a mortal sin in Bruckner. The orchestra plays splendidly and is well recorded.

Listened to so far in this Barenboim Berlin cycle are symphonies 1-5 and 7. I count 2, 3 and 7 as successes, 1 as a good reading and 4, 5 as ill-conceived. Oh yes ! I forgot Helgoland (coupled with the 1st): one of Bruckner's very last works, Barenboim does it justice (not so in Chicago), but the Wyn morris version knocks it off (and all other contenders) with little apparent effort. One of the triumphs of the Bruckner discography.

André,

I disagree with you on the Barenboim 5 (though I agree that the recorded sound of the BPO cycle is lousy), and I think you need to stop looking at the watch for timings. The spectrum of logically plausible and convincing interpretations of Bruckner is immense, so there is no such thing as objectively, asbolutely "too fast". But I think you would get a lot out of listening to the 5th in the hands of Sinopoli/Dresden and Dohnyani/Cleveland. Back to Barenboim, you should check out the live 7 with Staatskapelle Berlin. Easily the best of the three. You should also do yourself a favor and add the entire Skrowaczewski cycle to your listening.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 23, 2015, 02:48:58 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 09, 2015, 07:59:18 AM
I'm guessing that somewhere in these pages this has been mentioned before, but a great site that I've been frequenting and is very useful is www.abruckner.com
Its a complete discography of Bruckner's music, and seperates each version of them. It's been a real gem of a guide when exploring the 3rd and it's numerous editions and recordings.


Thank you!


From the website:

QuoteThe abruckner.com website is now the official Internet home of the Bruckner Society of America. The organization has been legally reactivated as a non-profit organization. We are in the process of selecting members to the board of directors and we have completed our first project which was the digitalization of the society's journal, "Chord and Discord" which was published sporadically from 1932 to 1998. Those publications are now available in the Articles section of this website (see below).


Yes, they have scanned all the issues of Chord and Discord, a music journal that was published irregularly.  But, when it arrived, it was full of GREAT STUFF!  8)

I still have my copies from the 1950's and 1960's.  One of my favorite articles was not on Bruckner per se, but on Mahler's Das Klagende Lied by the great Jack Diether

Here is the pdf. link:

http://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/thebrucknersociety2/1969/1969-c.pdf (http://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/thebrucknersociety2/1969/1969-c.pdf)

And check out the Table of Contents from the 1950 issue!!!  Articles by Robert Simpson, Donald Mitchell, Desmond Taylor, and of course Jack Diether!  Are there things like this around today?

Instinct and Reason in Music - Ernest  M. Lert 1
Mahler's Eighth: The Hymn to Eros - Gabriel Engel 12
All in the Family - Philip Greeley Clapp 33
The Eighth Symphony of Bruckner -  Robert Simpson 42
Mahler's Third in Iowa City  - Charles L. Eble 56
An Introduction to Bruckner's Mass in E Minor - Jack Diether 60
Mahler Eighteen Years Afterward -  Parks Gran  66
The Songs of Alma Mahler  -Warren Storey Smith 74
Bruckner on Records - Herman Adler 79
Some Notes on Gustav Mahler (1860-1911) - Donald Mitchell 86
Bruckner and Mahler in Australia  - Wolfgang Wagner 92
The Length of Mahler - Desmond Shawe Taylor 104
Bruckner's Eighth in Chicago -  Charles L. Eble 107
Music of Gustav Mahler Ranks with the Greatest - Louis Biancolli 113
The Ninth Symphony of Anton Bruckner - Robert Simpson 11
Mahler's Eighth Cheered by 18,000 in Hollywood  - 118
Ovation for Mahler's Second by Tanglewood Audience - 127
American Premiere of Mahler's Tenth  - 129
New York City Opera Company as a National Cultural Institution - 130
A Memorable Elektra - Robert G. Grey 133
Symphonic Chronicle  137
A Memorable Ninth .

See:

http://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/thebrucknersociety2/1950/1950-c.pdf (http://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/thebrucknersociety2/1950/1950-c.pdf)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on February 24, 2015, 10:02:08 PM
Earlier today [very, very loud while commuting]

Bruckner: Symphony No 6              New Philharmonia O/Klemperer

Amazing! This recording has now replaced my Jochum/DG recording as my ultimate (for now) performance of Bruckner's 6th.
The first two movement in particular were awe-inspiring with the horn sections literally weaving a soundscape that I didn't expect. Such detail! Such accents! Such power. The NPO builds the music so elegantly and with such immense force that it is impossible to resist being pulled along.  I was less intrigued by the last two movements, but I wonder if it will ever be possible to perform B6 better than in this recording? Perhaps, but I am not in a hurry to ever leave this one behind.  Never!    :P

from:
[asin] B008YKRRH2[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 02, 2015, 01:53:14 PM
I have  been perusing some of the issues of Chord and Discord and in the 1946 issue found an article called Bruckner: Simpleton or Mystic?

See pdf page 11:

http://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/thebrucknersociety2/1946/1946-c.pdf (http://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/thebrucknersociety2/1946/1946-c.pdf)

Scroll down to pdf pages 14-15: you will see an overlay of sorts.  The red notes are what Bruckner originally composed, according to the scholars who reconstructed the  scores.  It is astonishing what "editors" thought needed to be done to the scores!!!  As the author says, the best that can be said for the Schalks  and Loewe and others is that "they meant well."   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on March 02, 2015, 02:15:06 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 02, 2015, 01:53:14 PMScroll down to pdf pages 14-15: you will see an overlay of sorts.  The red notes are what Bruckner originally composed, according to the scholars who reconstructed the  scores.  It is astonishing what "editors" thought needed to be done to the scores!!!  As the author says, the best that can be said for the Schalks  and Loewe and others is that "they meant well."   0:)
Easy is the descent into editorship, to paraphrase Milton.   :o
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 02, 2015, 03:15:21 PM
Quote from: North Star on March 02, 2015, 02:15:06 PM
Easy is the descent into editorship, to paraphrase Milton.   :o

Amen!  0:)

I once published a short story in a magazine, but had to endure the absolutely incompetent interference of an editor who thought she had written my story and could mangle every sentence.  Not one idea or change she had come up with made any sense.  I compromised on a few things, held my nose on some, and held fast on others.

I have never found anyone who thought her "version" (i.e. travesty) was better than my original.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 02, 2015, 05:15:03 PM
These last few days I re-re-re listened to symphonies 5 and 7 from the Klemperer box. In the case of # 5, a recording I have had on vinyl for some 35 years, it was just a a confirmation that this must be THE Bruckner recording of the Century. Klemperer at his slow, incisive, pugnacious best, the orchestra screeching, snarling, emoting like there was no tomorrow, all caught in resplendently pellucid sonics by the engineers in London's famed Kingsway Hall.

The 7th is more of the same (orchestra, engineers, venue), but this time it's the music that is more elusive. As good as it gets, the 7th is a work that is slightly harder to muster enthusiasm for. Beauty, elevation, elegiac feelings, nobility: yes. Klemperer and the orchestra are totally adept at conveying it all.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on March 02, 2015, 05:35:20 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 24, 2015, 10:02:08 PM
Earlier today [very, very loud while commuting]

Bruckner: Symphony No 6              New Philharmonia O/Klemperer

Amazing! This recording has now replaced my Jochum/DG recording as my ultimate (for now) performance of Bruckner's 6th.
The first two movement in particular were awe-inspiring with the horn sections literally weaving a soundscape that I didn't expect. Such detail! Such accents! Such power. The NPO builds the music so elegantly and with such immense force that it is impossible to resist being pulled along.  I was less intrigued by the last two movements, but I wonder if it will ever be possible to perform B6 better than in this recording? Perhaps, but I am not in a hurry to ever leave this one behind.  Never!    :P

Well, when we did our Bruckner Sixth blind listening competition, Klemperer was in the top two! Only Celibidache in Munich beat him out, and honestly, it's a matter of taste. I love them both dearly. Since that comparison, I've listened to a whole bunch of other recordings, and these three round out my top five: Dohnanyi/Cleveland, Nagano/DSO Berlin, Barenboim/Berlin PO.

Of course there are many more recordings to hear on this very happy quest!

Quote from: André on March 02, 2015, 05:15:03 PM
These last few days I re-re-re listened to symphonies 5 and 7 from the Klemperer box. In the case of # 5, a recording I have had on vinyl for some 35 years, it was just a a confirmation that this must be THE Bruckner recording of the Century. Klemperer at his slow, incisive, pugnacious best, the orchestra screeching, snarling, emoting like there was no tomorrow, all caught in resplendently pellucid sonics by the engineers in London's famed Kingsway Hall.

The 7th is more of the same (orchestra, engineers, venue), but this time it's the music that is more elusive. As good as it gets, the 7th is a work that is slightly harder to muster enthusiasm for. Beauty, elevation, elegiac feelings, nobility: yes. Klemperer and the orchestra are totally adept at conveying it all.

Funny - my opinion of the two symphonies themselves couldn't be more opposite from yours. The Seventh's finale is "elusive" - I don't really have a clue what he's doing there. But to me the first three movements are very direct, and of course very beautiful. I'll have to listen to Klemp's 5th, because the 5th is a symphony I do not understand at all, and do not like either (except, of course, for the last 2 minutes!).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 02, 2015, 07:55:10 PM
Quote from: Brian on March 02, 2015, 05:35:20 PM
Funny - my opinion of the two symphonies themselves couldn't be more opposite from yours. The Seventh's finale is "elusive" - I don't really have a clue what he's doing there. But to me the first three movements are very direct, and of course very beautiful. I'll have to listen to Klemp's 5th, because the 5th is a symphony I do not understand at all, and do not like either (except, of course, for the last 2 minutes!).

I had the same problem with the 5th. Wrote about it a few pages back. After Jochum (EMI), Thielemann, Chailly, Sinopoli (Youtube), I still couldn't make much headway.

Enter Dohnanyi. Lightening struck and now I'm a convert.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on March 02, 2015, 08:42:10 PM
Quote from: North Star on March 02, 2015, 02:15:06 PM
Easy is the descent into editorship, to paraphrase Milton.   :o
Vergil, actually.  (Surprised Cato didn't catch that!)

Easy is the descent into Avernus,
But the return!...There is the labor, there is the work!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on March 03, 2015, 12:24:40 AM
I think the 7th (but especially the first movement) is one of the most accessible (and most beautiful) things by Bruckner. The 7th finale is very compact but not all that complicated I think. The first "jagged" theme with the dotted rhythm is a cousin of the first movement's main theme. Then there are two more important themes, one quiet and "chorale-like", mostly in the strings and a dramatic one (again dotted rhythm) in the brass. For the recap the order of themes is turned around (so it starts with the mighty brass theme) and in the coda the beginning of the first movement's main theme re-enters for "apotheosis". (That's a very rough sketch from memory but in any case I find this one of the most accessible Bruckner finales.)

I have had a fascination for the 5th since I first heard it (I think it was the first I bought on CD as a teenager in about 1990). But I think it is a more thorny and less attractive piece than the 7th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 03, 2015, 06:29:37 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on March 03, 2015, 12:24:40 AM
I have had a fascination for the 5th since I first heard it (I think it was the first I bought on CD as a teenager in about 1990). But I think it is a more thorny and less attractive piece than the 7th.

Check this comment:

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on March 02, 2015, 07:55:10 PM
I had the same problem with the 5th. Wrote about it a few pages back. After Jochum (EMI), Thielemann, Chailly, Sinopoli (Youtube), I still couldn't make much headway.

Enter Dohnanyi. Lightning struck and now I'm a convert.

I was present with a group of high school students at a Cleveland Orchestra performance of the Fifth in the 1990's.  I was not a little worried that the work might prove too much for novices, but under Dohnanyi it turned out that my fears were unjustified.  My students were the first ones on their feet for a standing ovation at the end!

So perhaps the right interpretation for Jo498 just has not tickled the ears yet.  Or it may be a matter of time: some day things might fall together and you will wonder why you ever had trouble with the work.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 02, 2015, 08:42:10 PM
Vergil, actually.  (Surprised Cato didn't catch that!)

Easy is the descent into Avernus,
But the return!...There is the labor, there is the work!


Many thanks for catching the reference!  The line sounded like something Milton - or Dante - could have written, both of whom of course have Vergil as an ancestor.  0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on March 03, 2015, 07:08:31 AM
I meant to say that I like the 5th myself. But I can very well understand that someone (especially if new to Bruckner) finds it more difficult than almost all the others. And I wanted to express with my last sentence that I think that this is due to actual features of the music, like less obviously attractive melodies, lots of demonstrative polyphony etc.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on March 04, 2015, 11:49:15 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 03, 2015, 06:29:37 AM
I was present with a group of high school students at a Cleveland Orchestra performance of the Fifth in the 1990's.  I was not a little worried that the work might prove too much for novices, but under Dohnanyi it turned out that my fears were unjustified.  My students were the first ones on their feet for a standing ovation at the end!

I borrowed that glorious Dohnyani/Cleveland B5 from a friend months ago and haven't returned it yet.  ;D It has a place of honor in my disc changer. Until I find a copy of my own. Why are the best things OOP?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 04, 2015, 11:51:27 AM
Quote from: MishaK on March 04, 2015, 11:49:15 AM
I borrowed that glorious Dohnyani/Cleveland B5 from a friend months ago and haven't returned it yet.  ;D It has a place of honor in my disc changer. Until I find a copy of my own. Why are the best things OOP?

Some highly affordable copies in the Amazon MP if you're interested, MishaK.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on March 04, 2015, 12:03:00 PM
Thanks for the tip. Looks like my friend will get this (and the B9) back sooner. ;)

Misha
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 04, 2015, 05:14:43 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 03, 2015, 06:29:37 AM
I was present with a group of high school students at a Cleveland Orchestra performance of the Fifth in the 1990's.  I was not a little worried that the work might prove too much for novices, but under Dohnanyi it turned out that my fears were unjustified.  My students were the first ones on their feet for a standing ovation at the end!

I would've loved to have been one of your students on that day! Or the chauffeur.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 04, 2015, 07:01:24 PM
Speaking of Dohnányi, I just recently listened to his recording of the 8th, w/Cleveland of course. Which puts it in direct competition with Boulez's sizzling account, which is a fave of mine.

In a word, it's phenomenal! Like every other Dohnányi/Cleveland/Bruckner recording I've heard (all but the 4th) the sense of an organic unfolding is strong. No tacked-on frills, swells, etc...it's all about the pacing. Pacing, pacing, pacing. But make no mistake, there's an alertness which keeps every gesture, every phrase invigorated.

Interestingly, Dohnányi and Boulez are very similar timing-wise, except for the adagio:

                          I               II              III             IV

Dohnányi         16:16        13:53         29:02        22:59

Boulez             15:08        13:39         24:52        22:19


But conception-wise the two, as expected, have little in common. Boulez has the high tingle-factor, given that the VPO is most likely zotting in on every Boulez micro-command, and responding with like fervor.

The Clevelanders though are no slouches, yet the thrills come more from a sense of a unified, tectonic shifting of phrases. Whole chunks just break off and move on command to their new resting places. Like musical chairs...only not.

Then overlaying everything is that trademark Dohnányi/Cleveland warmth. Amazing.

I wouldn't dare pit one against the other, though. I'll leave the grudge match for another day.   



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 05, 2015, 03:16:35 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on March 04, 2015, 07:01:24 PM
Speaking of Dohnányi, I just recently listened to his recording of the 8th, w/Cleveland of course. Which puts it in direct competition with Boulez's sizzling account, which is a fave of mine.

In a word, it's phenomenal! Like every other Dohnányi/Cleveland/Bruckner recording I've heard (all but the 4th) the sense of an organic unfolding is strong. No tacked-on frills, swells, etc...it's all about the pacing. Pacing, pacing, pacing. But make no mistake, there's an alertness which keeps every gesture, every phrase invigorated.

The Clevelanders though are no slouches, yet the thrills come more from a sense of a unified, tectonic shifting of phrases. Whole chunks just break off and move on command to their new resting places. Like musical chairs...only not.

Then overlaying everything is that trademark Dohnányi/Cleveland warmth. Amazing.


Many thanks for the review!  I will look into these recordings!  Your description of the Dohnanyi/Cleveland reminds me of comments made about the conductor Carl Schuricht and his Bruckner style.  You might look into a Schuricht Ninth, if it is around these days.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on March 05, 2015, 09:06:59 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 05, 2015, 03:16:35 AM
Many thanks for the review!  I will look into these recordings!  Your description of the Dohnanyi/Cleveland reminds me of comments made about the conductor Carl Schuricht and his Bruckner style.  You might look into a Schuricht Ninth, if it is around these days.

Or more importantly, Schuricht's awesome 8th with VPO as well as his 3rd. The 9th is good, but not nearly as of-a-piece as his 8th and 3rd.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on March 05, 2015, 09:09:24 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 05, 2015, 03:16:35 AM
Many thanks for the review!  I will look into these recordings!  Your description of the Dohnanyi/Cleveland reminds me of comments made about the conductor Carl Schuricht and his Bruckner style.  You might look into a Schuricht Ninth, if it is around these days.
They certainly are around.
[asin]B0009I7ONO[/asin] [asin]B0079J26S4[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 05, 2015, 09:41:37 AM
Quote from: North Star on March 05, 2015, 09:09:24 AM
They certainly are around.
[asin]B0009I7ONO[/asin] [asin]B0079J26S4[/asin]

Good to know!  I remember his record of the Ninth because even through two little 6" stereo speakers  it made a big impact on me in the good old days.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 05, 2015, 12:35:42 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 05, 2015, 03:16:35 AM
Many thanks for the review!  I will look into these recordings!  Your description of the Dohnanyi/Cleveland reminds me of comments made about the conductor Carl Schuricht and his Bruckner style.  You might look into a Schuricht Ninth, if it is around these days.

Much obliged for that! I'll definitely look into the Schuricht. And his 8 and 9 are on Youtube, so looking forward to auditioning!


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 05, 2015, 01:07:10 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on March 05, 2015, 12:35:42 PM
Much obliged for that! I'll definitely look into the Schuricht. And his 8 and 9 are on Youtube, so looking forward to auditioning!

And on Spotify, which I just saved this disc into my playlist.  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 05, 2015, 04:20:54 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 05, 2015, 01:07:10 PM
And on Spotify, which I just saved this disc into my playlist.  ;D

8)


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 18, 2015, 04:05:43 PM
Been listening to the ultra cheap st by Roberto Paternostro and the Württemburgisch Philharmonie Reutlingen, recorded in Basilika Weingarten.

To make things clear : Württemburgische means from Württemberg, a southern region of Germany. Reutlingen is a 100000 plus city of that region where the symphony orchestra plays. And Weingarten is the city where the orchestra records in the town's cathedral.

Be that as it may, I am about 1/3 of the way into the set and some very definite characteristics emerge.

- versions: Paterostro favours the later, familiar versions. No discoveries here.
- interpretation: the conductor plays the works in a very 'natural' fashion. He tailors the 'déroulement' (unfolding) of the phrases and paragraphs to suit the characteristics of the recorded venue. Everything is live. You know that only when, after a few seconds of silence, moderate expression of enthusiasm emerges in the form of clapping hands. Were these good townfolks gagged and bound as the music played ?
- execution: I did not detect deficiencies, except that timpani are somewhat gentle (anti-karajanesque) and horns diffident rather than prominent, clearly a matter of microphone placement. Strings are quite to the fore compared to the rest of the orchestra.
-- sound: this is a looooong reverb venue. I would say it flatters Bruckner's orchestration for those who do not normally like Bruckner. Very much Simmons Beautyrest textures and sound.

Overall, I'd say this is a VERY unusual take on Bruckner's soundworld, thanks to the orchestra and recording venue characteristics. I throughly enjoyed what I heard so far. No eccentricities, just the sheer pleasure of accommodating a much-loved set of ingredients with the local smoky sauce and sweet spices.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on March 19, 2015, 12:56:42 AM
Listening to WPR/Paternostro's Bruckner on Spotify and your comments are spot-on.

Quote from: André on March 18, 2015, 04:05:43 PM
Were these good townfolks gagged and bound as the music played ?

Probably. Hope it catches on.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on March 19, 2015, 04:40:39 AM
Quote from: André on March 18, 2015, 04:05:43 PM
Everything is live. You know that only when, after a few seconds of silence, moderate expression of enthusiasm emerges in the form of clapping hands. Were these good townfolks gagged and bound as the music played ?

There's a habit, in Germany (and beyond, I reckon), to not clap in church after a concert. In fact, at the famous BRSO concerts at the basilica in Ottobeuren (Mozart Mass in C minor with Lenny on DVD, for example; lots of Bruckner; I heard Bruckner 5 with Blomstedt there, some years ago), they explicitly ask you not to clap. Just appreciate it. Let the music dissipate... and then the bells will ring. It's a MUCH more satisfying experience, that way. I, for one, don't clap in churches either... no matter who is playing or what format it is in. It's just so tacky. So... not done.

In any case, I reckon that that natural hesitation collided with the instinct to clap after the music over... resulting in the neitherfishnorfowl applause you are hearing on those recordings.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 19, 2015, 10:22:08 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 19, 2015, 04:40:39 AM
There's a habit, in Germany (and beyond, I reckon), to not clap in church after a concert.


When the Toledo Symphony plays their annual Bruckner concert in the local Catholic cathedral, the audience quite definitely applauds and has given standing ovations.

Many thanks to Andre' for the review of that set: I have wondered about it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on March 19, 2015, 10:43:21 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 19, 2015, 10:22:08 AM

When the Toledo Symphony plays their annual Bruckner concert in the local Catholic cathedral, the audience quite definitely applauds and has given standing ovations.

Many thanks to Andre' for the review of that set: I have wondered about it.

Americans, even Catholics, have a very different, much less history-and-tradition-and-rigor-laden relationship with churches... That I'm not a fan of clapping in churches (and that it's not super common in much of central Europe) is a result of an arbitrary code of conduct; my severe dislike of it not a judgment on it, simply a description of habit and expectation.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 19, 2015, 12:15:39 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 19, 2015, 10:43:21 AM
Americans, even Catholics, have a very different, much less history-and-tradition-and-rigor-laden relationship with churches... That I'm not a fan of clapping in churches (and that it's not super common in much of central Europe) is a result of an arbitrary code of conduct; my severe dislike of it not a judgment on it, simply a description of habit and expectation.

Oh yes!  Especially after 1965, the  Catholic Church in America became much less formal: the understanding from the  Bishop(s) of Toledo (there have been two since the tradition started, and a third has been installed now) is that the tabernacle is empty during the concerts, and so a slightly less formal atmosphere is allowed.

Staying silent, however, would be fine with me, but I understand the enthusiasm after hearing a great performance of BRUCKNER !!!   ;)

(And I think  0:) Divinity  0:) approves!)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on March 19, 2015, 03:20:18 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 19, 2015, 04:40:39 AM
There's a habit, in Germany (and beyond, I reckon), to not clap in church after a concert. In fact, at the famous BRSO concerts at the basilica in Ottobeuren (Mozart Mass in C minor with Lenny on DVD, for example; lots of Bruckner; I heard Bruckner 5 with Blomstedt there, some years ago), they explicitly ask you not to clap. Just appreciate it. Let the music dissipate... and then the bells will ring. It's a MUCH more satisfying experience, that way. I, for one, don't clap in churches either... no matter who is playing or what format it is in. It's just so tacky. So... not done.

That doesn't match my experience. At the Rheingau Musikfestival at the Kloster Eberbach there definitely was plenty of applause at the end of each performance of Inbal's Bruckner cycle with the WDR, for example. Plenty of clapping here too for Giulini at the same venue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUe6r9UcIkw
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Pat B on March 19, 2015, 03:53:34 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 19, 2015, 10:43:21 AM
Americans, even Catholics, have a very different, much less history-and-tradition-and-rigor-laden relationship with churches... That I'm not a fan of clapping in churches (and that it's not super common in much of central Europe) is a result of an arbitrary code of conduct; my severe dislike of it not a judgment on it, simply a description of habit and expectation.

Well, "tacky" did sound a tad judgemental. But I think I know what you meant.

I would very much like to attend a performance like you described. Not the neitherfishnorfowl one, but the one where it's quiet and not awkward, and then bells.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: NJ Joe on March 19, 2015, 05:07:10 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 03, 2015, 06:29:37 AM
Or it may be a matter of time: some day things might fall together and you will wonder why you ever had trouble with the work.

A fascinating phenomenon, isn't it? Sometimes it's taken years for this to happen for me.  Sometimes I don't even listen to the piece...I just wake up one day and realize it's fallen together.

The reverse of this happens as well. I'll listen to a piece that had flowed easily and now have trouble with it. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: NJ Joe on March 19, 2015, 05:12:08 PM
I'm making great headway with this 5th and, as a matter of fact, the entire box.

[asin]B005HYNCTK[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on March 19, 2015, 06:58:11 PM
Quote from: NJ Joe on March 19, 2015, 05:12:08 PM
I'm making great headway with this 5th and, as a matter of fact, the entire box.

[asin]B005HYNCTK[/asin]

Great stuff, Joe. I really like Celibidache's approach to Bruckner. As slow as it may be (for some), I still find this partial cycle to be some of the most intense Bruckner performances around.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on March 19, 2015, 07:19:59 PM
Regret to inform that I listened to the 8th again today (Klemperer) and the two outer movements still left me cold. I continue to love the Adagio, and the scherzo is seeming more straightforward, but the first movement doesn't grab me and the finale, while I recognize the impressive structural achievement, lacks emotional resonance for me.

This is an improvement over last year's listen, so, hey, progress.

Definitely keeping in mind various people's advice to try Dohnanyi in both this symphony and the 5th, the other "tough nut" I am failing to crack.

Maybe tomorrow I'll listen to the Ninth for the first time in 6-7 years. No reason I waited so long on that one, except wanting to save a big discovery for later on.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on March 20, 2015, 01:31:32 AM
While I still struggle with the 8th's finale (mainly because it is a damn long piece to listen to after almost an hour of music has passed already, I probably should listen to it on its own a few times) I found the first movement one of Bruckner's most accessible and also quite original with the quiet ending although in most other respects it follows his "standard model".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 20, 2015, 04:20:41 PM
Klemperer's EMI B8 is a curate's egg. Klemp conducted it throughout his life but seemed to have quite definitive second thoughts about it at the end of his life. For the first time (AFAIK) he decided to excise huge chunks of the last movement, cutting it by a good third. I still tink it's a great performance, but definitively a second tier choice.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on March 30, 2015, 02:24:03 PM
Quote from: amw on March 30, 2015, 02:34:22 AM
Just finished a first listen to Sawallisch's Bruckner 6, which joins the elite category of Bruckner 6 Recordings I Will Actually Keep Once My Qobuz/Spotify/NML Subscriptions Expire

Bruckner 6

Objectively Good
Sawallisch
Stein
Leitner (Hänssler)

Subjectively Good
Norrington - subjective due to extreme fastness and nonvibrato
Eichhorn (Camerata) - subjective due to slowness and japan

Good, But Lacking A Certain Something
Celibidache
Davies
Zweden
Rozhdestvensky - a top choice but for the bad orchestral playing, poor sound quality, and inaccurate version of the score used. Basically it's the greatest bad recording of a bruckner symphony ever

Average-ish
Klemperer
Dohnányi
Nézet-Séguin

Meh
Wand (RCA)
Karajan
Chailly
Eschenbach
Jochum (EMI)
Jansons - actually forgot I listened to this one lol

I'm still having Ken B hold my place in queue for the Davies box set though.

Moving on to the 7th soon! Decided to save the 5th for later, already have 8 and 9 basically sorted
Transported over at André's suggestion.

Top 4 Sawallisch (most exciting/dramatic/generally 'complete'), Eichhorn (best slow one), Stein (grandest/most 'cosmic'), Norrington (I'm a weirdo)

Other comments - Leitner is most 'Brucknerian'/HIP, Davies everyone should listen to at least once, Wand RCA is pretty much a 'meh' until the finale (which gets progressively better until the end), Celi great but doesn't hold up as well to repeat listenings.

Quote from: André on March 20, 2015, 04:20:41 PM
Klemperer's EMI B8 is a curate's egg. Klemp conducted it throughout his life but seemed to have quite definitive second thoughts about it at the end of his life. For the first time (AFAIK) he decided to excise huge chunks of the last movement, cutting it by a good third. I still tink it's a great performance, but definitively a second tier choice.
The only thing I remember about Klemperer's B8 is the 20 minute scherzo. Jesus fuck. If that had been my first exposure to the symphony I'd probably have turned it off right there. >.>
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 30, 2015, 02:42:03 PM
The DGG recording by Eugen Jochum is still my favorite: I find it as exciting as ever!

Quote from: amw on March 30, 2015, 02:24:03 PM
If that had been my first exposure to the symphony I'd probably have turned it off right there.

I have told the story before: in the 1960's, a Klemperer recording of Bruckner's Fifth Symphony was really enthusing me - oddly, as his conducting had always been too slow for me.

Looking at the score as I listened, it struck me that the orchestra was playing in the wrong key!  I wondered how that was possible!  Then it struck me:

The record player had been used earlier by my sister, and was set to 45 rpm!  But it really pepped up old Otto!   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 30, 2015, 05:11:23 PM
The 6th as per AMW's rating system (in alphabetical order and of course subject to change at the next hearing of those listed):

Objectively good : nothing to fault and everything to praise interpretatively. Very characterful playing and conducting.

- Bongartz, GewandhausOrchester Leipzig
- Keilberth BP
- Leitner Stuttgart R.S.O.
- Stein, WP
- Swoboda (in admittedly old sound) with the Wiener Symphoniker.

Subjectively good: they all have outstanding features, but don't make it to the Wow ! stage. I would still recommend them as first choices, as most of those in the first category are more heavily spiced than the following:

- Haitink, Amsterdam Concertgebouw
- Kegel Leipzig Radio Symphony
- Klemperer NPO (Testament and EMI)
- Leitner Basel S.O. (among the slowest yet most lyrical of the lot).
- Lopez-Cobos Cincinnati S.O.
- Wand Cologne (Kölner Rundfunk)

Average-ish: very good but not outstanding. Inducing boredom at worst.

- Barenboim Chicago Symphony
- Haitink, Staatskapelle Dresden.
- Karajan BP
- Nézet-Séguin Montreal Metropolitan Orchestra
- Jochum (BRSO)
- Steinberg, Boston Symphony.

Meh: not necessarily unattractive, but unable to lift themselves above the rank and file, let alone the most characterful ones.

- Barenboim Berlin Phil
- Bernstein NYPO (live)
- Celibidache, Munich Philharmonic
- Gielen, SWR Baden-Badeun und Freiburg Orch.
- Jochum Dresden Staatskapelle
- Skrowaczewski, Saarbrücken
- Tintner, NZ Symphony Orch.
- Wand, NDR Hamburg Orch.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on March 30, 2015, 05:48:14 PM
Also curious to see people's B8 lists, since I haven't heard any really 'objectively good' ones (The 'subjective' ones are those that are personal favourites of mine, but hard to recommend to others due to weird/unusualness) and haven't even listened to all that many when it comes down to it.

Subjectively Good
Païta
Rozhdestvensky (as above)
Roth & Baden-Baden bootleg someone sent me

Average-ish
Kempe
Boulez

Meh
Celibidache

WTF
Klemperer

Currently Böhm and the Bavarians are accompanying my luncheon in suitably doom-laden fashion. I'm really enjoying them so far; def not a 'meh'.

(No point in me making a list for 9 as I consider every one I've heard 'objectively good' so far    :-[ )
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 01, 2015, 06:14:05 PM
Bruckner: Symphony No. 6
Bernstein/NYP

Interpretively it's very interesting, with some truly gripping choices in tempi and with Bernstein's stressful treatment of ritardandos. This is a live performance, so it's filled with that 'in the moment' excitement, including the occasional foot podium-pounding by Bernstein. Unfortunately there is a good amount of crowd noise and multiple, and very audible, Horn mistakes.

https://www.youtube.com/v/L4K-GsihakU
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: The new erato on April 01, 2015, 11:11:38 PM
Lovro von Matacik on Supraphon (  sorry for the missing diacritics) - has anybody heard it?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on April 01, 2015, 11:23:54 PM
Which number? I have a 7th with von Matacic on Denon or Supraphon which is good but I am not sure if it deserves the raves one sometimes reads about it. Not a Bruckner expert myself, although I really like the 7th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: The new erato on April 01, 2015, 11:31:04 PM
No 6. An early LP purchase of mine and I've always felt a sentimental attachment to it despite not having listened to it for some years.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on April 02, 2015, 08:02:58 AM
Quote from: André on March 30, 2015, 05:11:23 PM
Objectively good

This is possibly the funniest thing anyone has written on GMG ever. The mere fact that my list would look almost exactly inverse of yours makes it all the more funny.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Christo on April 02, 2015, 09:46:49 AM
Quote from: MishaK on April 02, 2015, 08:02:58 AMThis is possibly the funniest thing anyone has written on GMG ever. The mere fact that my list would look almost exactly inverse of yours makes it all the more funny.

I find this categorizing very convenient: objectively good = everything I like, subjectively good = everything you like and I don't care if you do, average-ish = everything I don't care about and neither do you, meh = everything I dislike and/or somebody whom I dislike happens to like.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on April 02, 2015, 11:38:45 AM
Quote from: Christo on April 02, 2015, 09:46:49 AM
I find this categorizing very convenient: objectively good = everything I like, subjectively good = everything you like and I don't care if you do, average-ish = everything I don't care about and neither do you, meh = everything I dislike and/or somebody whom I dislike happens to like.

Well we *could* talk purely about the technical proficiency of a performance in relatively objective terms - intonation, rhythmic accuracy, ensemble coordination etc. aren't really subject to debate. But this does require a certain level of musical training. And even then, I doubt that e.g. Leitner Stuttgart R.S.O. or Swoboda with the Wiener Symphoniker would rank anywhere near the top performances of B6 from a technical, objective standpoint.  ;) But even so, I think we all agree a technically perfect does not a moving and convincing, let alone "great" performance make.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on April 02, 2015, 01:05:27 PM
Quote from: Christo on April 02, 2015, 09:46:49 AM
I find this categorizing very convenient: objectively good = everything I like, subjectively good = everything you like and I don't care if you do, average-ish = everything I don't care about and neither do you, meh = everything I dislike and/or somebody whom I dislike happens to like.

I use them as such: objectively good = will recommend to someone who's never heard B6 before; subjectively good = I like it, but it's weird/unusual/not actually very good so you probably won't.

Like, Leitner's obviously not up to the 'technical' level of e.g. Sawallisch, but interpretively sits in the sweet spot between obsession, grandeur and energy that we sometimes call 'brucknerian', so it's easy for it to recommend as part of a B6 starter kit.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 02, 2015, 01:58:13 PM
Quote from: amw on March 30, 2015, 05:48:14 PM
Also curious to see people's B8 lists

Favorites

Maazel/Berlin
Maazel/SOBR
Szell/Cleveland
Boulez/Vienna
Suitner/Staatskapelle Berlin

Favorites but hard to recommend

Paita/with his hired thugs
Celibidache/Munich
Klemperer/Philharmonia
Gielen/Baden-Baden

Enjoyable but wouldn't be allowed on the ship to the desert island

Guilini/Vienna
Dohnányi/Cleveland
Celibidache/Stuttgart
Wand/Berlin
Wand/Köln
Karajan/Berlin

Meh

Barenboim/Berlin
Böhm/Zurich
Kubelik/SOBR
Chailly/Concertgebouw
Jochum/Dresden
Schuricht/Vienna (sorry, Misha)

Original Version (interesting to hear occasionally, but his critics were correct and the revision is superior)

Tintner > Inbal
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on April 02, 2015, 02:04:52 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 02, 2015, 01:58:13 PM
Original Version (interesting to hear occasionally, but his critics were correct and the revision is superior)

Tintner > Inbal
Schaller and his hired thugs sound pretty good in this from samples, actually. I don't know the Davies.

I'd rate Böhm/Audite as possibly my second favourite so far... will listen to more eventually. Right now, first exposure to 7, with Norrington
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 02, 2015, 02:09:41 PM
Quote from: amw on April 02, 2015, 02:04:52 PM
Schaller and his hired thugs sound pretty good in this from samples, actually. I don't know the Davies.

I don't know those dudes' B8s

Quote from: amw on April 02, 2015, 02:04:52 PM
I'd rate Böhm/Audite as possibly my second favourite so far... will listen to more eventually.

Böhm/Bruckner has always been problematic for me. I have yet to hear a Böhm/Bruckner performance that's moved me in any way. He just sounds cold-blooded. I'll try to sample the Audite, though.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ritter on April 02, 2015, 02:31:10 PM
I don't have that many recordings of Bruckner's Eighth as to make a list, but must say that I wasn't really impressed by the Böhm / Audite set when I got it a couple of years ago. I found the scherzo problematic: the brass sound as if they were having an off night, and the filligree of figures of the trumpets sound muddled; the whole movement sounds hastily put together to me. I think the Böhm / Vienna on DG is far superior...

I should relisten to the Audite soon in light of amw's comment... :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on April 02, 2015, 02:53:36 PM
Quote from: amw on March 30, 2015, 05:48:14 PM
Also curious to see people's B8 lists

In order of favoritedness:

Klemperer/Koln RSO
Tennstedt/BSO (broadcast)
Bohm/VPO
Schuricht/VPO
Matacic/NHK SO
Paita/PSO

Recommendable ones are Bohm (I prefer the VPO over both Audite and Zurich) and Schuricht I guess. Klemperer is nothing like his late EMI recording but orchestra is occasionally touch sloppy and the sound is mono (good mono, though), Tennstedt is not a commercial recording (I have yet to warm to his live BPO recording on Testament), Matacic's orchestra is bit lightweight and Paita is bit extreme.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on April 02, 2015, 03:00:22 PM
Quote from: ritter on April 02, 2015, 02:31:10 PM
I don't have that many recordings of Bruckner's Eighth as to make a list, but must say that I wasn't really impressed by the Böhm / Audite set when I got it a couple of years ago. I found the scherzo problematic: the brass sound as if they were having an off night, and the filligree of figures of the trumpets sound muddled; the whole movement sounds hastily put together to me.
Yes that sounds about right—I generally like the 'sound' of the Bavarians so I granted them leeway, and it was one of the first results when I searched in Qobuz, and I've only heard the symphony 5-6 times before. Intepretively & in some details of the playing it was definitely impressive to an uninitiate though.

edit: Norrington's 7th is problematic (esp in terms of phrasing, articulation & dynamics) but enjoyable (esp in terms of tempo and energy). Also, this is a really cool symphony. Bruckner actually can write melodies! (sometimes)

edit 2: I liked the symphony enough to listen to another recording. This time I picked Wand/Berlin. It's pretty much a totally different piece in their hands, lol. That coda to the first movement though. ≠.≠
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 02, 2015, 09:03:09 PM
Quote from: amw on March 30, 2015, 05:48:14 PM
Also curious to see people's B8 lists

It's a three-way tie for me:

Boulez/VPO
Dohnanyi/Cleveland
Jochum/Dresden

Chailly/Concertgebouw rounds out my list.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on April 03, 2015, 07:24:10 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 02, 2015, 02:09:41 PM
I don't know those dudes' B8s

You should. ;-) Which Kubelik B8 was it you didn't like? Orfeo or BR? I didn't like the Orfeo but I thought the BR version is excellent. I will need to check my notes for a full list, but one that always surprised me positively was quite unexpectedly Solti/CSO, the 1990 live in Leningrad recording. Brilliant. Like a completely different conductor compared to the horrible 1969 VPO version he recorded.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 03, 2015, 07:33:57 AM
Quote from: MishaK on April 03, 2015, 07:24:10 AM
You should. ;-) Which Kubelik B8 was it you didn't like? Orfeo or BR? I didn't like the Orfeo but I thought the BR version is excellent. I will need to check my notes for a full list, but one that always surprised me positively was quite unexpectedly Solti/CSO, the 1990 live in Leningrad recording. Brilliant. Like a completely different conductor compared to the horrible 1969 VPO version he recorded.

The BR...but I only listened once and may have not done it justice. I'll relisten soon.

That Solti/Vienna  ;D ....my first B8. I played it once, hated it, returned it to the record shop the next day. Bought the Szell with the refund.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on April 03, 2015, 12:47:16 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 03, 2015, 07:33:57 AM
That Solti/Vienna  ;D ....my first B8. I played it once, hated it, returned it to the record shop the next day.

That was approximately my reaction as well. It's unclear from the performance who hated whom more: Solti the VPO or the other way around.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 03, 2015, 01:01:07 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on April 02, 2015, 09:03:09 PM
It's a three-way tie for me:

Boulez/VPO
Dohnanyi/Cleveland
Jochum/Dresden


Chailly/Concertgebouw rounds out my list.

I do not know that many recordings of the Eighth, but those 3 are winners.  Everyone here probably knows I would place Jochum first  ;D  on the list, but yes, we agree here.  The Chailly I have not heard, but he conducted one of my favorite CD's of the Gurrelieder by Schoenberg, so with your enthusiasm I will assume his Bruckner is at the top!  ;)

Quote from: MishaK on April 03, 2015, 12:47:16 PM
That was approximately my reaction as well. It's unclear from the performance who hated whom more: Solti the VPO or the other way around.

I am really intrigued to find this recording now!   8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on April 03, 2015, 01:36:39 PM
Quote from: MishaK on April 03, 2015, 07:24:10 AM
You should. ;-) Which Kubelik B8 was it you didn't like? Orfeo or BR? I didn't like the Orfeo but I thought the BR version is excellent.

A friend gave me a 1966 stereo broadcast of a Kubelik B8 with the Chicago SO that's very good.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 03, 2015, 01:46:48 PM
Quote from: Daverz on April 03, 2015, 01:36:39 PM
A friend gave me a 1966 stereo broadcast of a Kubelik B8 with the Chicago SO that's very good.

I was in the audience for a Kubelik/Cleveland B8 at Severance Hall in 1973. I remember being in ecstasy. Why the SOBR recording didn't similarly move me...well, I need another listen to figure it out.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 03, 2015, 01:53:47 PM
Quote from: Cato on April 03, 2015, 01:01:07 PM
I am really intrigued to find this recording now!   8)

I haven't heard it since 1972. I wonder if it really is as bad as I recall. Maybe. I've never associated Solti with good Bruckner.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on April 03, 2015, 04:37:04 PM
7 for the third time in 2 days—today it's Haitink Time.

(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/12/30/0002894733012_600.jpg)

I'm struck by how much Schubert there is in Bruckner—what's coming to mind particularly at the moment is the way extremely daring and wide-ranging harmonic passages get rounded off by banal cadential figures, as though vainly attempting to 'normalise' them. The clearest Schubert example I can think of right now is the slow movement of the C minor sonata D.958.

Also it's Passover. Chag sameach Jeffrey Smith!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: trung224 on April 03, 2015, 07:38:43 PM
 Some of my favorite :
1. Furtwängler BPO 1944
2. Jochum live with Hamburg Philharmonic 1949 on DG
3. Knappertsbusch live MPO 1963 on Dreamlife CD (not the commercial one on Westminster)
4. Wand live NDR in Lübeck 1987
5. Karajan VPO 1988
6. Celibidache live MPO 1990 in Tokyo on Altus CD
7. Giulini live with Philharmonia Orchestra  on BBC Legends
8. Boulez VPO
9. Van Beinum with CGO
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 03, 2015, 07:50:27 PM
Quote from: Cato on April 03, 2015, 01:01:07 PM
I do not know that many recordings of the Eighth, but those 3 are winners.  Everyone here probably knows I would place Jochum first  ;D  on the list, but yes, we agree here.

Oh, Jochum just got put last because "J" comes after "D" after "B". In an alternate universe somewhere he's first on that list. ;D

QuoteThe Chailly I have not heard, but he conducted one of my favorite CD's of the Gurrelieder by Schoenberg, so with your enthusiasm I will assume his Bruckner is at the top!  ;)

I love Chailly's Gurrelieder, too. I haven't actually spun his Bruckner 8th in some time now though. And since everything is in boxes due to the impending move I'm forced to sit tight until I can get to my CDs again and give it another spin. I'm anxious. Will report.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 04, 2015, 10:54:02 AM
I'm getting closer to wanting to run a Bruckner 7th blind comparison. That is if I can get enough participants. I have a good amount of recordings, with many conductors that were not a part of the 6th BC.
I also have a few ideas for changing the elimination format.

What say you?  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on April 04, 2015, 02:29:11 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 04, 2015, 10:54:02 AM
I'm getting closer to wanting to run a Bruckner 7th blind comparison. That is if I can get enough participants. I have a good amount of recordings, with many conductors that were not a part of the 6th BC.
I also have a few ideas for changing the elimination format.

What say you?  8)

If "you" is everyone, I say: Yes! I've got plenty, if you need material.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 04, 2015, 04:21:54 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 04, 2015, 02:29:11 PM
If "you" is everyone, I say: Yes! I've got plenty, if you need material.

Thanks, Jens!   :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 04, 2015, 04:41:22 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 04, 2015, 10:54:02 AM
I'm getting closer to wanting to run a Bruckner 7th blind comparison. That is if I can get enough participants. I have a good amount of recordings, with many conductors that were not a part of the 6th BC.
I also have a few ideas for changing the elimination format.

What say you?  8)

Yes!  My life was becoming empty: climbing Everest - check, swimming English Channel - check, defeating a ninja in a swordfight - check. 

Okay, so those were all mental exercises!   ;)

But I have not yet done something really great, like a Bruckner  Seventh Blind Comparison!!!

Many thanks for offering to do this!

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on April 03, 2015, 07:50:27 PM
Oh, Jochum just got put last because "J" comes after "D" after "B". In an alternate universe somewhere he's first on that list. ;D

I love Chailly's Gurrelieder, too. I haven't actually spun his Bruckner 8th in some time now though. And since everything is in boxes due to the impending move I'm forced to sit tight until I can get to my CDs again and give it another spin. I'm anxious. Will report.

Thank Heavens!   0:)

I know the feeling!  Best Wishes on moving!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 04, 2015, 06:48:19 PM
Quote from: Cato on April 04, 2015, 04:41:22 PM
I know the feeling!  Best Wishes on moving!

Thanks, Cato. :)


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on April 07, 2015, 01:49:48 AM
Continuing my 7ths with Szell, which is a bit... I don't know, want to say undercharacterised, though it's not really; it's perfectly good, I'm sure it's someone's favourite, but for me it just seems too restrained or something. Too 'perfect' in some ways.

My favourite of the four 7ths is def shaping up to be Wand/Berlin. But with a caveat: from the 6th comparison I know Wand tends to not be a details kinda guy, he just paints everything in broad brush strokes. Maybe I need to hear Celi or YNS or something.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on April 07, 2015, 09:35:45 AM
Went back to B8 with Chailly/Concertgebouw, which has immediately shot up to first place ahead of Païta and Rozh. He's actually a lot like Boulez as I recall, so I don't know why I like him so much more: it's just a very serious interpretation, tragic without sensationalism, deeply felt without visible sentiment, & convincingly optimistic (a quality I usually don't like much in this symphony). The moment that sums up the kinds of things I like about the interpretation is the beginning of the adagio, where Chailly more than any other conductor I've heard makes the accompaniment chords sound like slow heartbeats.

I realise this is kind of backwards as Sarge called it a 'meh' (though that's probably on account of its reserve, which is a quality I personally admire in performances of Austrian music written 1860-1890 >.>) and I still haven't heard any of the 'big name' performances apart from Boulez. I have been paying attention to your suggestions, don't worry guys :P they're on a list
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 07, 2015, 09:58:59 AM
Quote from: amw on April 07, 2015, 09:35:45 AM
Went back to B8 with Chailly/Concertgebouw, which has immediately shot up to first place ahead of Païta and Rozh. He's actually a lot like Boulez as I recall, so I don't know why I like him so much more: it's just a very serious interpretation, tragic without sensationalism, deeply felt without visible sentiment, & convincingly optimistic (a quality I usually don't like much in this symphony). The moment that sums up the kinds of things I like about the interpretation is the beginning of the adagio, where Chailly more than any other conductor I've heard makes the accompaniment chords sound like slow heartbeats.

I realise this is kind of backwards as Sarge called it a 'meh' (though that's probably on account of its reserve, which is a quality I personally admire in performances of Austrian music written 1860-1890 >.>) and I still haven't heard any of the 'big name' performances apart from Boulez. I have been paying attention to your suggestions, don't worry guys :P they're on a list

Very interesting reaction!  Many thanks!

Many years ago I read Eduard Hanslick's review of the work: he was NOT a fan!   0:)

Here are two excerpts:

Quote...Also characteristic of Bruckner's newest symphony is the immediate juxtaposition of dry schoolroom counterpoint with unbounded exaltation.  Thus, tossed about between intoxication and desolation, we arrive at no definite impression and enjoy no artistic pleasure.  Everything flows, without clarity and without order, willy-nilly into dismal long-windedness.  In each of the four movements, and most frequently in the first and third, there are interesting passages and flashes of genius – if only all the rest were not there!  It is not out of the question that the future belongs to this muddled hangover style – which is no reason to regard the future with envy...

Even before the performance we had heard such provocative reports of the extraordinary profundity of the new symphony that I took care to prepare myself through study of the score and attendance at the dress rehearsal.  I must confess, however, that the mysteries of this all-embracing composition were disclosed to me only through the helpful offices of an explanatory programme handed to me prior to the concert...

In the Adagio we behold nothing less than "the all-loving Father of mankind in all his infinite mercy!"  Since this Adagio lasts exactly twenty-eight minutes or about as long as an entire Beethoven symphony, we cannot complain of being denied ample time for the contemplation of  the rare vision.  .

Fascinating that what he heard was so distasteful to him.

See:

https://theoryofmusic.wordpress.com/2009/10/11/bruckners-symphony-no-8-reviewed-by-eduard-hanslick-1892/ (https://theoryofmusic.wordpress.com/2009/10/11/bruckners-symphony-no-8-reviewed-by-eduard-hanslick-1892/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on April 07, 2015, 10:12:21 AM
". . . tossed about between intoxication and desolation" . . . he says that, like it's a bad thing . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 07, 2015, 12:21:56 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 07, 2015, 10:12:21 AM
". . . tossed about between intoxication and desolation" . . . he says that, like it's a bad thing . . . .

That is the ultimate succinct description of many a life on earth!  0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on April 07, 2015, 03:36:24 PM
My next B8 may be Jochum as I've heard he actually plays the last three notes correctly. Question is: which one, Hamburg, Berlin or Dresden? What's the difference between them? (Apart from mono vs stereo that is—not so interested in sound quality)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: John Copeland on April 07, 2015, 03:43:10 PM
Quote from: Cato on April 07, 2015, 12:21:56 PM
That is the ultimate succinct description of many a life on earth!  0:)
Quote from: karlhenning on April 07, 2015, 10:12:21 AM
". . . tossed about between intoxication and desolation" . . . he says that, like it's a bad thing . . . .

I have had serious issues with that old goat Eduard Hanslick since Cato introduced me to him a few years ago.   ??? ::) :P
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 07, 2015, 04:42:46 PM
Quote from: amw on April 07, 2015, 03:36:24 PM
My next B8 may be Jochum as I've heard he actually plays the last three notes correctly. Question is: which one, Hamburg, Berlin or Dresden? What's the difference between them? (Apart from mono vs stereo that is—not so interested in sound quality)

I cannot comment on the Hamburg, but the other two are usually distinguished by the precision of the Berliners vs. the slightly more powerful (debatable) and (therefore) more "elemental" sound of the Dresdners.

Quote from: Scots John on April 07, 2015, 03:43:10 PM
I have had serious issues with that old goat Eduard Hanslick since Cato introduced me to him a few years ago.   ??? ::) :P

Hanslick had an interesting take on Tchaikovsky's Sixth as well! He complained about "the merciless length," complained about the lamentably wild "Cossack nature" of the Scherzo, complained about various parts that were simply "not beautiful," complained about the "unpleasant nature" of the 5/4 in the second movement, which he suggested should have been 6/8, etc.  As a whole, however, the symphony made a worthwhile impression, he concluded, apparently grudgingly.   8)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 07, 2015, 04:50:40 PM
My first reaction to Wand's 6th with Munich was, well, meh. But time can alter perception, and appreciation, especially when there is a deeper understanding, in this case I now see the beauty in this performance. First, I'll compare some timings...

Wand/Cologne (1976)         Wand/Munich (1999)
15:40                                 17:04
15:10                                 16:02
8:49                                    9:10
13:37                                 14:45

I did shave off a little time for the Munich finale, it's listed at 15:19 but there is applause at the end that begins at 14:45.
The Cologne performance is exciting, but not necessarily deep with any warmth or expressiveness. With Munich, Wand seems to dig deep into the score and reveals all of the emotional notations with great detail. Perhaps that was my initial issue with the Munich recording, I wasn't put on the edge of seat. That was a me problem. I'm amazed that after 3-4 previous recordings (and who knows how many performances) that Wand continued to reveal different aspects of the score. The times do indicate a slower approach, which is the case, but the slower pace offers more time, and space, for the melodies and themes to blossom. A great example, for those of you that have the ability to listen to both, is in the finale (at Cologne-6:20, and for Munich-6:52), Wand brings the Munich strings in with such hushed care, it's a very short section and most performances seem to graze over it with little focus. But not here, it's like a new Sun beginning to slowly rise. Here, this section has a meaning, a purpose.

Thats what I love about hearing all the interpretations of Bruckner's works, how conductors and orchestras perform the substance of the music in their own way. I will continue to listen to this one, and enjoy it on beautiful Hanssler sound.

[asin]B0018RR282[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 07, 2015, 05:15:08 PM
From an earlier comparison, let me file an amicus curiae brief to the following comment from Moonfish:

Quote from: Moonfish on November 10, 2014, 11:01:42 AM
In regards to Symphony No 6 I will remain in Jochum's Bruckner temple no matter what!!     >:D 

(http://babydickey.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/tantrum.gif)

[asin] B00006YXOX[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on April 10, 2015, 03:59:41 AM
Bruckner 7 again—Chailly/DSRB

Ok I kind of get why this is the one everyone loves. It is pretty amazing, like a big, soft, fluffy dog. Who's maybe getting on in years a bit so no longer chases after tennis balls with quite so much energy as he used to, but otherwise the most faithful companion one might want. I'm not so interested in getting the full cycle, but if the 7 is available separately I might add it to my collection as my permanent B7
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on April 10, 2015, 05:48:08 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 16, 2009, 02:07:54 PM
Listened to this  week: the 8th with the Bamberger Symphoniker under Eugen Jochum. It dates from June 1982 and was recorded in THE abbey (St-Florian, that is !).
The price was right, so I'm checking this one out ahead of EMI, DGx2, Tahra or any of the others. >.>

edit: Wow, that is the greatest surprise leap onto an F major chord ever recorded. Literally perfect, exactly how it should always be done. (if only the last 3 notes were in time :<) I think I'll check out some more late Jochum, thanks for pointing me in this direction <.<
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 02, 2015, 02:29:06 AM
I'm thinking of getting the Brilliant Classics Jochum box. But could some one who has it tell me which versions of the symphonies he plays in this set?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2015, 02:42:16 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 02, 2015, 02:29:06 AM
I'm thinking of getting the Brilliant Classics Jochum box. But could some one who has it tell me which versions of the symphonies he plays in this set?

SYMPHONY #1 C MINOR LINZ 1877 NOWAK
SYMPHONY #2 C MINOR 1877 FIRST CRITICAL EDITION NOWAK
SYMPHONY #3 D MINOR REV VERSION 1889 NOWAK
SYMPHONY #4 E FLAT 1886 (aka 1878/80) NOWAK
SYMPHONY #5 B FLAT 1878 NOWAK
SYMPHONY #6 A MAJOR 1881 NOWAK
SYMPHONY #7 E MAJOR 1885 NOWAK
SYMPHONY #8 C MINOR REV VERSION 1890 NOWAK
SYMPHONY #9 D MINOR 1894 ORIGINAL NOWAK


Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 02, 2015, 03:28:25 AM
I have listened to this CD several times in recent days: for the purists, the first three movements, especially the first, are practically perfect.  For those who do not mind the construction of the Finale - and according to the notes not too much needed to be done, thanks to recent research - they will find a great performance there as well.

[asin]B007O3QC8K[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on May 02, 2015, 04:48:25 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 02, 2015, 03:28:25 AM
I have listened to this CD several times in recent days: for the purists, the first three movements, especially the first, are practically perfect.  For those who do not mind the construction of the Finale - and according to the notes not too much needed to be done, thanks to recent research - they will find a great performance there as well.
First 9th I listened to, and the first three movements are definitely better than Karajan and Wand-in-Berlin, even though Rattle is still alive and has curly hair. (conductors can only be bald or have straight hair, its a rule or something) The finale is... a bunch of blocks of masonry stuck together, Bruckner would've edited it to hell if he'd lived, but with some very impressive things for all that; and the ending the team came up with is superbly Brucknerian and should be perfectly satisfactory. (Basically from the point where the manuscript breaks off, leaving only Particellskizzen: all 4 movements' themes simultaneously—the scherzo rhythm in the timpani is a nice touch, though I'm not sure Bruckner would agree—chorale theme—super dissonant, unresolved dominant 11th from the adagio—resolution to D major with the trumpets playing, I think, the end of the adagio?/recollection of the 7th symphony?, the trombones with the 1st movement and the horns with the 'alleluia' motive of the 4th movement/recollection of the 3rd symphony?*, which then ends the piece.)

I don't remember what the 9th to have is supposed to be, Kubelik or Giulini or something maybe, so I probably haven't heard the 'best' recording out there but I'm honestly pretty satisfied with Sir Simon and don't feel especial pressure to seek out another one right now

* tbh it's pretty ambiguous because (a) most of the bruckner themes sound pretty much identical to begin with and (b) he tended to just turn them into rhythmic outlines anyway
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 02, 2015, 04:04:16 PM
there are many ways to conceive the 9th, from Mehta to Klemperer, Leitner to Karajan, Schuricht to Celibidache. It's a very rich, subtle work.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on May 02, 2015, 10:50:52 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 02, 2015, 03:28:25 AM
I have listened to this CD several times in recent days: for the purists, the first three movements, especially the first, are practically perfect.  For those who do not mind the construction of the Finale - and according to the notes not too much needed to be done, thanks to recent research - they will find a great performance there as well.

[asin]B007O3QC8K[/asin]

Agreed and highly recommended from me as well.


Quote from: amw on May 02, 2015, 04:48:25 AM
...and the ending the team came up with is superbly Brucknerian and should be perfectly satisfactory.

It's the most satisfactory I've heard so far (and I've heard almost all). Apart from the superb reconstruction of the finale per se, the way the whole work is bound together interpretatively as a 4-movement edifice and not as a 3-movement torso (e.g. by not blowing the adagio out of proportion) also adds to the allure and illuminates more aspects of the previous 3 movements.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on May 03, 2015, 01:01:43 AM
Quote from: Cato on April 07, 2015, 05:15:08 PM
From an earlier comparison, let me file an amicus curiae brief to the following comment from Moonfish:

0:)

Jochum's rendition of the 6th is indeed a blessing to the Bruckner realm! I think I listened to it thirty times last year...   :P
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 08, 2015, 06:57:48 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 03, 2015, 01:01:43 AM
0:)

Jochum's rendition of the 6th is indeed a blessing to the Bruckner realm! I think I listened to it thirty times last year...   :P

Wow!  Do you have any emotional energy left?!   ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on May 08, 2015, 07:06:03 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 08, 2015, 06:57:48 AM
Wow!  Do you have any emotional energy left?!   ;)

No kidding!  8)

Perhaps after my 2 June concert, I must get me back to some Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on May 12, 2015, 05:35:33 AM
Bruckner 5 is a pretty good symphony! I think one reason I enjoy it is because it's a departure from the model of 3/6/7/8/9 which are all basically the same symphony with different tunes. Though the insistence on sticking a Gesangperiode and recapitulation into a perfectly fine triple fugue is a bit baffling at first, like... hello? momentum? are you there? (Also why don't all three subjects ever appear together? Like I was totally expecting that to be the climax but apparently no) The scherzo is also kind of confusing due to stopping every few seconds to change tempo and/or key but I guess B hadn't worked out his scherzo template yet or something? (I know 4 has two scherzos or something)

Anyway DRD and the Bruckner Orchestra Linz sound great, better than their 6th, but I expect the usual recording recommendations about how Svetlanov live in Munich '84 on Pony Canyon is the only B5 worth listening to and etc.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 12, 2015, 02:13:01 PM
Quote from: amw on May 12, 2015, 05:35:33 AM
Bruckner 5 is a pretty good symphony! I think one reason I enjoy it is because it's a departure from the model of 3/6/7/8/9 which are all basically the same symphony with different tunes. Though the insistence on sticking a Gesangperiode and recapitulation into a perfectly fine triple fugue is a bit baffling at first, like... hello? momentum? are you there? (Also why don't all three subjects ever appear together? Like I was totally expecting that to be the climax but apparently no) The scherzo is also kind of confusing due to stopping every few seconds to change tempo and/or key but I guess B hadn't worked out his scherzo template yet or something? (I know 4 has two scherzos or something)

I see the old habit of patronising Bruckner dies hard.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 12, 2015, 02:41:38 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 12, 2015, 02:13:01 PM
I see the old habit of patronising Bruckner dies hard.

Indeed.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on May 12, 2015, 08:14:49 PM
Don't hate, Bruckner used formulas and was good at it. It's not knocking him to recognise he was good at that.

This really is a very enjoyable symphony though. I listened to Barenboim today and my immediate reaction was to want to go right back to the start. So I'm doing that, this time with Janowski. Love the woodwind parts and all the pizzicato everywhere, great orchestration.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 12, 2015, 08:15:34 PM
I've been lately enjoying listening to Janowski's and the Suisse Romande Orchestra's cycle on Spotify. My first impressions of these were poor, and I spent a year away from them, until I returned to them just recently. And my viewpoint has certainly altered since then.
The first thing that is very noticeable is the incredible sound quality of these performances. Every harmony and musical line are tremendously clear and well defined, I was hearing some parts that I've never heard before even with the extensive Bruckner listening I've been doing the past few years. Also, the wood winds are able to hold their own and make a strong presence even when the brass is in high gear. Same can be said for the non-violins of the string section.  ;D
Here you have Bruckner performances that are so transparent and coherent that the score is the focus. All of Bruckner's harmonies and melodies shine with the brightest of details.
Now one thing you won't get here is anything new interpretively. Jamowski allows the score to be the leader while he focuses more on bringing to life the details, and he succeeds. Most of his tempo choices are too fast for my liking, but I find myself having a difficult time arguing with this, as I've become so attracted to the beauty of the balance that is displayed here.
The Suisse Romande Orchestra play powerfully well, and with a lot of care.


[asin]B00TP96RJ0[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 12, 2015, 08:40:47 PM
Quote from: amw on May 12, 2015, 08:14:49 PM
Don't hate, Bruckner used formulas and was good at it. It's not knocking him to recognise he was good at that.

Pointing out fallacy is never "hate". And reducing Bruckner to mere cliché is fallacy.

QuoteThis really is a very enjoyable symphony though. I listened to Barenboim today and my immediate reaction was to want to go right back to the start. So I'm doing that, this time with Janowski. Love the woodwind parts and all the pizzicato everywhere, great orchestration.

Shine on! :)


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 12, 2015, 08:43:45 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 12, 2015, 08:15:34 PM
I've been lately enjoying listening to Janowski's and the Suisse Romande Orchestra's cycle on Spotify. My first impressions of these were poor, and I spent a year away from them, until I returned to them just recently. And my viewpoint has certainly altered since then.
The first thing that is very noticeable is the incredible sound quality of these performances. Every harmony and musical line are tremendously clear and well defined, I was hearing some parts that I've never heard before even with the extensive Bruckner listening I've been doing the past few years. Also, the wood winds are able to hold their own and make a strong presence even when the brass is in high gear. Same can be said for the non-violins of the string section.  ;D
Here you have Bruckner performances that are so transparent and coherent that the score is the focus. All of Bruckner's harmonies and melodies shine with the brightest of details.
Now one thing you won't get here is anything new interpretively. Jamowski allows the score to be the leader while he focuses more on bringing to life the details, and he succeeds. Most of his tempo choices are too fast for my liking, but I find myself having a difficult time arguing with this, as I've become so attracted to the beauty of the balance that is displayed here.
The Suisse Romande Orchestra play powerfully well, and with a lot of care.

Super nice write-up, GS. Thanks for sharing. I like the part about the transparent sound. I'd definitely like to sample these soon.



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 13, 2015, 07:54:55 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 12, 2015, 08:43:45 PM
Super nice write-up, GS. Thanks for sharing. I like the part about the transparent sound. I'd definitely like to sample these soon.

That does sound very intriguing, and I am not sure I have heard much by the Suisse Romande Orchestra since the days of Ansermet!

Are there any specific symphonies where the transparency is especially startling?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 13, 2015, 04:06:06 PM
Re: the Bruckner scherzos: it's obvious from symphonies 0-3  that Bruckner had the pattern and language down pat.. He made something different with symphony 4 (the 'hunting' scherzo) and very different with that  of the 5th symphony. It sounds more of a collage or pointillistic essay than any of the preceding ones. Then, in symphonies 6 and 7 he returns to the tried and tested peasant-hunting brueghelian form he had devised in 1-4. In symphonies 8 and 9 he veered ooff that model. But that is another story.

Right now: listening to 8 under Schuricht (Hamburg Radio Smphony, 1955 vintage). Powerful stufff.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on May 14, 2015, 12:20:31 PM
Quote from: André on May 13, 2015, 04:06:06 PM
Re: the Bruckner scherzos: it's obvious from symphonies 0-3  that Bruckner had the pattern and language down pat.. He made something different with symphony 4 (the 'hunting' scherzo) and very different with that  of the 5th symphony.

You need to consider the original third movement for the 4th as well, which is entirely different from what came before or after.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on May 14, 2015, 01:44:07 PM
I really enjoyed the Rattle CD and agree that it is the best 'completion' of the work. I also agree that Bruckner would have written something significantly different had he lived - maybe he had set himself an impossible task - like Sibelius after his 7th Symphony - what more is there to say after the third movement of Bruckner's 9th Symphony?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 14, 2015, 02:02:04 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 14, 2015, 01:44:07 PM
I really enjoyed the Rattle CD and agree that it is the best 'completion' of the work. I also agree that Bruckner would have written something significantly different had he lived - maybe he had set himself an impossible task - like Sibelius after his 7th Symphony - what more is there to say after the third movement of Bruckner's 9th Symphony?

I don't think that Bruckner's completion of his Ninth would have been much different from what we hear on the Rattle disk, 75% of it is just orchestrating what Bruckner wrote in short score and most of the rest is repeating material from Bruckner's score, the only bit that is conjectural is the final few minutes and that, to me, sounds completely convincing.

Robert Simpson in his book on Bruckner (the revised 1992 version) couldn't accept that the sketches that were then published of the Ninth's finale could built the momentum necessary for a true Bruckner finale. However, had he lived to hear this version, I think he would have accepted it because what he wrote about the finale of the Eighth applies even more accurately to this completion: 'The Finale is, for all its splendour, the calmest part of the Symphony. It is the cathedral that the architect had been trying, through all the world's distractions, to find in the mind's eye. One by one the impediments have been removed, until the image is clearly reveled. It can now be contemplated, sometimes with quiet absorption, sometimes with a sense of exhilaration, and once* recalling past despair. Again we must not expect such a finale to develop speed: its movement is vast and slow, and its active periods do not affect the deep pulse that forms its life.' (* perhaps in the case of the Ninth's finale 'often').

This is not to say of course that what we have is perfect; if Bruckner had finished it fully (or perhaps if his completed score had survived, if you believe that he had in fact finished it), we would find it to be much more wonderful that what we have now (in the same way that if Mahler had orchestrated the tenth it would be incomparably more wonderful than any of the orchestrated versions). But it's better to have this than not.

One thing that saddens me, though, is that Bruckner would easily have been able to finish the Ninth if he hadn't been sidetracked into the pointless revisions of the earlier symphonies he undertook in the late 1880s and early 1890s.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 14, 2015, 03:07:17 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 14, 2015, 02:02:04 PM
I don't think that Bruckner's completion of his Ninth would have been much different from what we hear on the Rattle disk, 75% of it is just orchestrating what Bruckner wrote in short score and most of the rest is repeating material from Bruckner's score, the only bit that is conjectural is the final few minutes and that, to me, sounds completely convincing.

Robert Simpson in his book on Bruckner (the revised 1992 version) couldn't accept that the sketches that were then published of the Ninth's finale could built the momentum necessary for a true Bruckner finale. However, had he lived to hear this version, I think he would have accepted it because what he wrote about the finale of the Eighth applies even more accurately to this completion: 'The Finale is, for all its splendour, the calmest part of the Symphony. It is the cathedral that the architect had been trying, through all the world's distractions, to find in the mind's eye. One by one the impediments have been removed, until the image is clearly reveled. It can now be contemplated, sometimes with quiet absorption, sometimes with a sense of exhilaration, and once* recalling past despair. Again we must not expect such a finale to develop speed: its movement is vast and slow, and its active periods do not affect the deep pulse that forms its life.' (* perhaps in the case of the Ninth's finale 'often').

This is not to say of course that what we have is perfect; if Bruckner had finished it fully (or perhaps if his completed score had survived, if you believe that he had in fact finished it), we would find it to be much more wonderful that what we have now (in the same way that if Mahler had orchestrated the tenth it would be incomparably more wonderful than any of the orchestrated versions). But it's better to have this than not.

One thing that saddens me, though, is that Bruckner would easily have been able to finish the Ninth if he hadn't been sidetracked into the pointless revisions of the earlier symphonies he undertook in the late 1880s and early 1890s.

Yes, the completion sounds convincing  to me also, and if the commentary by the musicologists involved is not exaggerated, their methods for deducing the missing sections from either Bruckner's style in earlier symphonies, or from the earlier movements of the Ninth, seem logical.

I have read articles by some musicologists claiming that Bruckner's rooms were invaded by trophy seekers after his death, that "chaos reigned," and quite possibly pages of a completed short score of the Ninth's last movement were taken.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on May 15, 2015, 03:37:50 AM
Quote from: André on May 13, 2015, 04:06:06 PM
Re: the Bruckner scherzos: it's obvious from symphonies 0-3  that Bruckner had the pattern and language down pat..
Ah, I didn't know that. Only heard 3 of that lot.

QuoteThen, in symphonies 6 and 7 he returns to the tried and tested peasant-hunting brueghelian form he had devised in 1-4. In symphonies 8 and 9 he veered ooff that model.
One thing I definitely like about the Bruckner scherzos is that, despite their 'formula', they all manage to be completely different. 5 as you say is the most exceptional, with strands of a Ländler and an Ecossaise intercutting this violent hard-driven music, but 6 is all shadowy and mysterious with a trio of great nobility, 7 is a sort of Wild Hunt, 8 pairs this plodding, earthbound German dance type with an ethereal, celestial trio, 9 is just pure demonic ferocity with a trio of half-lit faerie music. I don't remember 3 right now but I think it's closest to 7.

Current listening is 5 with Dohnányi, definitely the best of the four versions I've heard so far as regards clarity, articulation, tempi, and general Klang (I can't really judge sound quality, I have a pair of cheap usb speakers someone gifted to me, I mean it's good quality fwiw)

edit: Dohnányi Bruckner 5 finished. I don't know what makes it stand out tbh, on a technical level it's about the same as Barenboim (though tempi are more to my liking). But overall... idk, that was just one of the best performances, of anything, ever. Have to apologise to my flatmates now, it's almost 1 am and that was loud :<
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 15, 2015, 05:54:30 AM
Quote from: amw on May 15, 2015, 03:37:50 AM


Current listening is 5 with Dohnányi, definitely the best of the four versions I've heard so far as regards clarity, articulation, tempi, and general Klang (I can't really judge sound quality, I have a pair of cheap usb speakers someone gifted to me, I mean it's good quality fwiw)

edit: Dohnányi Bruckner 5 finished. I don't know what makes it stand out tbh, on a technical level it's about the same as Barenboim (though tempi are more to my liking). But overall... idk, that was just one of the best performances, of anything, ever. Have to apologise to my flatmates now, it's almost 1 am and that was loud :<

Never apologize for playing Bruckner, even at 1 A.M. !   :laugh:

I had the opportunity to hear Dohnanyi conduct the Cleveland Orchestra in Bruckner's Fifth,
and it was a marvel of power and clarity and emotion!  Standing ovation at the end!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on May 15, 2015, 06:00:36 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 15, 2015, 05:54:30 AM
Never apologize for playing Bruckner, even at 1 A.M. !   :laugh:

I know I need never apologize for that!  (The artists in my life are still up doing their work at that hour, so as long as I don't have the volume cranked up . . . .)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2015, 07:20:36 AM
Quote from: André on May 13, 2015, 04:06:06 PM
Re: the Bruckner scherzos: it's obvious from symphonies 0-3  that Bruckner had the pattern and language down pat..

Yes, and even in the "Study Symphony" the Bruckner Scherzo was already born if not yet mature.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2015, 07:29:21 AM
Quote from: amw on May 15, 2015, 03:37:50 AM
edit: Dohnányi Bruckner 5 finished. I don't know what makes it stand out tbh, on a technical level it's about the same as Barenboim (though tempi are more to my liking). But overall... idk, that was just one of the best performances, of anything, ever. Have to apologise to my flatmates now, it's almost 1 am and that was loud :<

My favorite B5...the speed, the drama actually changed the way I thought Bruckner should be interpreted.

Quote from: amw on May 15, 2015, 03:37:50 AM
Have to apologise to my flatmates now, it's almost 1 am and that was loud :<

The only time I've had complaints from a neighbor was when I was listening to Bruckner. Bruckner is the only composer Mrs. Rock forbids me from playing after she goes to bed. There's just something about his music that penetrates thick walls  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on May 15, 2015, 07:43:58 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 14, 2015, 03:07:17 PM
Yes, the completion sounds convincing  to me also, and if the commentary by the musicologists involved is not exaggerated, their methods for deducing the missing sections from either Bruckner's style in earlier symphonies, or from the earlier movements of the Ninth, seem logical.

I have read articles by some musicologists claiming that Bruckner's rooms were invaded by trophy seekers after his death, that "chaos reigned," and quite possibly pages of a completed short score of the Ninth's last movement were taken.

As I have said before in this thread, for anyone wanting to understand the issues surrounding the finale of the 9th, you really ought to get hold of the Harnoncourt/Vienna recording. It contains a second disc with a lecture/demonstration by Harnoncourt (in both German and English - two separate tracks) in which he plays all of the surviving original sections of the finale, including what what was orchestrated fully and what wasn't. This will clarify to you exactly what is original Bruckner and what was extrapolated by the musicologists in the completion. Harnoncourt also addresses the chaos at Bruckner's death and the potential that more fragments could be found. Indeed, if you listen to the evolution of the Corhs/Mazucca/Samale completion over the years (I believe the first version was recorded by Yoav Talmi in the 80s) you will see that the completion has incorporated more and more original Bruckner fragments and has over the years evolved to sound more and more like 'real' Bruckner and less and less like other people's work. Also worth listening to as an alternative conception is the recent completion by Carragan, which was recorded by Gerd Schaller on Profil with his Sinfonia Festiva or whatever it's called. A superb performance as well.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on May 15, 2015, 03:15:46 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 15, 2015, 05:54:30 AM
I had the opportunity to hear Dohnanyi conduct the Cleveland Orchestra in Bruckner's Fifth,
and it was a marvel of power and clarity and emotion!  Standing ovation at the end!

Right? He's got the Magic Touch. I'm normally a huge admirer of Dohnányi, a 'the score, the whole score and nothing but the score' type of conductor, so I was disappointed that I didn't relate as much to his 6th and 8th; but that might just be because I like this score better, lol.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 15, 2015, 04:04:24 PM
Quote from: MishaK on May 15, 2015, 07:43:58 AM
As I have said before in this thread, for anyone wanting to understand the issues surrounding the finale of the 9th, you really ought to get hold of the Harnoncourt/Vienna recording. It contains a second disc with a lecture/demonstration by Harnoncourt (in both German and English - two separate tracks) in which he plays all of the surviving original sections of the finale, including what what was orchestrated fully and what wasn't. This will clarify to you exactly what is original Bruckner and what was extrapolated by the musicologists in the completion. Harnoncourt also addresses the chaos at Bruckner's death and the potential that more fragments could be found.

Yes, let me recommend that set as well!  Who knows how  many of those "trophy" pages might show up, or how many were destroyed in WW II?

I did not know that Carragan had a newer completion: many thanks for the information!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on May 18, 2015, 07:08:48 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 15, 2015, 04:04:24 PM
I did not know that Carragan had a newer completion: many thanks for the information!

It's a different completion entirely:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=594726

The latest Samale/Cohs/Philips/Mazzucca that Rattle recorded is actually a more recent completion (2012 vs. 2010 for the Carragan). See: http://www.abruckner.com/discography/symphonyno9indmino/

Of the recordings of the S/C/P/M finale completion, I can confidently say that Rattle's version is the most convincing by a long shot, both in terms of the playing and the improvements of the completion over the years. I have listened to the earlier recordings by Talmi, Wildner, Bosch and Harding and they don't measure up. Especially the Talmi recording has an earlier completion that was made before other original fragments were unearthed, so it sounds a lot less like Bruckner and has some hideously Hollywood-ish turns in the orchestration.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on May 23, 2015, 02:23:49 PM
Hi everyone.  I am new to the forum (posted an Introduction).  I have only recently "discovered" Bruckner, and am intensely involved in learning and listening to his symphonies.  I already have several versions of each, and many of the 8th.

As part of my education, I have read through most of this thread -- very interesting and informative.

I just listened to Jochum's 5th, recorded 4 December 1986, and wonder if anyone else has, and might offer comments and feedback?  The interpretation seems deeper and more moving, especially the adagio, than the one recorded at Ottobeuren Abbey 22+ years earlier.  The brass in that one, whilst exciting, is often shrill and overpowering.

In the 1986 recording, the sonics are more balanced, with superb SQ, although the brass still definitely shines through.  It also is a bit slower.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 23, 2015, 03:32:58 PM
Quote from: merlin on May 23, 2015, 02:23:49 PM
Hi everyone.  I am new to the forum (posted an Introduction).  I have only recently "discovered" Bruckner, and am intensely involved in learning and listening to his symphonies.  I already have several versions of each, and many of the 8th.

As part of my education, I have read through most of this thread -- very interesting and informative.

I just listened to Jochum's 5th, recorded 4 December 1986, and wonder if anyone else has, and might offer comments and feedback?  The interpretation seems deeper and more moving, especially the adagio, than the one recorded at Ottobeuren Abbey 22+ years earlier.  The brass in that one, whilst exciting, is often shrill and overpowering.

In the 1986 recording, the sonics are more balanced, with superb SQ, although the brass still definitely shines through.  It also is a bit slower.

The DGG recording with the Bavarian Radio Orchestra is also excellent: however, for this one (I will not claim to have heard every Jochum version available) Jochum nearly halves the speed for the final minutes, something not indicated in the score.

Does it work?  After nearly 50 years of listening to this version, I have still not decided!  There are times when I think it works quite well: yet it nags me that the score is being second-guessed to such an extent.  Slowing down the tempo - or speeding it up! - somewhat for the grand conclusion can be warranted within limits. 

Still, like I said, at times I find it an excellent way to handle the finale.  Maybe it depends on the weather!   ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on May 23, 2015, 04:04:51 PM
Thanks for commenting, Cato -- much appreciated!  I have Jochum's DG box on order, and will definitely do some comparative listening.

The other version of B5 I have auditioned is Celibidache/MPO -- VERY different, but for me, quite engaging.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on May 24, 2015, 09:11:56 AM
Here is a timing comparison of Jochum's 5th with the SD and the one I cite above:

EMI: 21'26" - 19'16" - 13'04" - 23'42"
Tahra: 22'13" - 20'43" - 13'54" - 25'40"

So perhaps the slowing down before the finale in this version is not as jarring as in the others, but fits into the overall conception and performance.

In any event, this is definitely a grand performance at all levels. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 25, 2015, 07:26:24 AM
Quote from: merlin on May 24, 2015, 09:11:56 AM
Here is a timing comparison of Jochum's 5th with the SD and the one I cite above:

EMI: 21'26" - 19'16" - 13'04" - 23'42"
Tahra: 22'13" - 20'43" - 13'54" - 25'40"

So perhaps the slowing down before the finale in this version is not as jarring as in the others, but fits into the overall conception and performance.

In any event, this is definitely a grand performance at all levels.

Many thanks: interesting that he slowed things down even more in the 1980's!

Let us know your reaction to the classic DGG set of Jochum conducting all 9 symphonies: keep in mind that he uses the Nowak edition of the scores for that one.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on May 25, 2015, 08:17:52 AM
Will do, Cato, and thanks.  The box will probably ship tomorrow, so it will be at least another week before it arrives.

Did a comparative listening yesterday with Bruckner 8. I found two downloadable interpretations on the 'Net: Tennestedt/BSO 1974 and Knappertsbusch/MPO 1963.

The first was quite fast, although not so much in the adagio. Although very exciting in places, I missed the spaciousness, detail, and much more moving finale experienced with Jochum/Bamberg (St. Florian 1982), Wand/NDR (Lubeck), and Celibidache/MPO (Japan 1990).

Kna was definitely different and interesting, in terms of instrumental and secondary beat emphases, but the SQ was much inferior to all of the others, which always affects my enjoyment. AFAIK he also used a different edition.
Title: Jochum Bruckner 8/Bamberger SO
Post by: merlin on May 25, 2015, 07:22:41 PM
Wondering if anyone has heard Bruckner 8 with Jochum/Bamberger SO in Tokyo, recorded in 1982 by Altus?  I just received a cd; the brass often sounds very shrill and there is a fair amount of muddiness and congestion, so maybe I got a bad pressing.

The interpretation is great, however.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 26, 2015, 06:09:09 PM
There are two Bamberg 1982 versions I know of: from June (recorded in St Florian Basilika) and from September (hailing from the Freiburger Dom). I am not aware of a Tokyo recording. I slightly but prefer the June version. Just like the famous Furtwängler March 49 versions: one is from the 14th and the other one from the 15th. One day apart, but different venues and different public circumstances. Both are readily and easily obtainable. But one is clearly - if narrowly - preferable. They also happen to be two of the most remarkable interpretations of the work ever heard on disc: March 15, 1949 for Furtwängler and June 1982 for Jochum. These two.

IMO no more than 3 or 4 other ones need be considered. If that.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on May 26, 2015, 06:18:29 PM
Thanks for the information, André -- much appreciated!  I have not seen the Bamberg June 1982 version except as an mp3 download from abruckner.com.  It would be great to find a cd version with better SQ.

I agree that the performance is marvelous.

N.B. Just found a downloadable flac version at http://juliosbv.blogspot.com/2011/01/bruckner-sinfonia-n-8-eugen-jochum.html
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Pat B on May 26, 2015, 07:54:20 PM
Quote from: André on May 26, 2015, 06:09:09 PM
There are two Bamberg 1982 versions I know of: from June (recorded in St Florian Basilika) and from September (hailing from the Freiburger Dom). I am not aware of a Tokyo recording.

Altus's website (http://www.altusmusic.com/conductor/jochum-eugen/jochum-bamberg-so-bruckner-symphony-no-8-2cd-1982-tokyo-live/) says the 1982.9.15 recording is from Tokyo, and Berky's discography (http://www.abruckner.com/discography/symphony8incminor/) doesn't show any other Jochum 8 from that month.

Quote from: merlin on May 26, 2015, 06:18:29 PM
N.B. Just found a downloadable flac version at http://juliosbv.blogspot.com/2011/01/bruckner-sinfonia-n-8-eugen-jochum.html

I would not be surprised if that's the mp3 from abruckner.com transcoded to flac. (Which is completely pointless, but some people do it.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on May 27, 2015, 12:07:28 PM
Thanks, Pat, for the confirmation re: Jochum/Bamberger Bruckner 8.  I found a downloadable version of the Japan concert, but as I wrote previously, the SQ is terrible, with lots of muddiness and congestion, and ear-splitting brass.  Altus claims the recording was 24/96, so something is clearly amiss!

I also d/led Bruckner 7 with Jochum/Bamberger, also recorded in Japan by Altus, and the sonics on that are quite a bit better, but less than cd quality, sad to say.

I have not yet listened to the June 1982 8th at St. Florian with the same forces that I found online, so do not know if it is any better than what is offered at abruckner.com.

Perhaps these were mp3s transcoded to flac, and as you said, this is totally without merit!  Is there any way, other than comparative listening, to tell if this is the case?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Pat B on May 27, 2015, 01:41:45 PM
Quote from: merlin on May 27, 2015, 12:07:28 PM
Thanks, Pat, for the confirmation re: Jochum/Bamberger Bruckner 8.  I found a downloadable version of the Japan concert, but as I wrote previously, the SQ is terrible, with lots of muddiness and congestion, and ear-splitting brass.  Altus claims the recording was 24/96, so something is clearly amiss!

They say it's remastered with (not recorded in) 24/96, which doesn't necessarily mean it sounds good. If the source is poor, there's only so much they can do.

Even something recorded in 24/96 could still be poorly engineered.

FTR I haven't heard this performance in any form.

Quote
Perhaps these were mp3s transcoded to flac, and as you said, this is totally without merit!  Is there any way, other than comparative listening, to tell if this is the case?

It's possible, but I don't know how reliable it would actually be. IMO if you can't hear the difference, then don't bother with the flacs.
Title: Re: Bruckner Downloads
Post by: merlin on May 28, 2015, 10:42:18 AM
I can almost always easily tell the difference between lossless (e.g. flac) and mp3.  The latter are compressed, so the dynamic range and SQ are less.

I did discover something about actual flac downloads.  The archive includes a .log file which details the ripping software and process.  The archives that do not include a .log file apparently are mp3s that have been transcoded to flac, with absolutely no increase in SQ, dynamics, etc.  They can sound pretty good, though, depending upon the recording, orchestration, and such.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on May 29, 2015, 01:51:24 AM
Quote from: merlin on May 28, 2015, 10:42:18 AM
I did discover something about actual flac downloads.  The archive includes a .log file which details the ripping software and process.  The archives that do not include a .log file apparently are mp3s that have been transcoded to flac, with absolutely no increase in SQ, dynamics, etc.  They can sound pretty good, though, depending upon the recording, orchestration, and such.
Not necessarily—flacs I've bought from a few online sellers (Qobuz, Hyperion, The Classical Shop) don't include a log file. The presence of a log file just means the flacs were ripped from a CD, whereas flacs without a log could be upsampled mp3s, but can also be downsampled studio masters. I think to tell the difference you have to look at spectrograms or something...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on May 29, 2015, 05:56:12 AM
Hi amw, and thanks for the info re: flac .log files.  The ones I am referring to, though, have definitely been ripped from discs, so the presence of that file is indicative that they are original flacs, and not mp3s that have been transcoded.

Listening definitely shows the difference, especially after burning them to a cd.
Title: Re: Bruckner Downloads
Post by: mszczuj on May 31, 2015, 08:59:46 AM
Quote from: merlin on May 28, 2015, 10:42:18 AM
The archives that do not include a .log file apparently are mp3s that have been transcoded to flac,

No, it depends. You can produce a lossless compression file from CD without producing .log file but of course the presence of it is a good sign but means only that somebody chose make .log file option.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Pat B on May 31, 2015, 09:26:02 AM
Yesterday I listened to the 5th for only the second time (Dohnanyi). Immediately afterwards, I subconsciously had parts of Schubert's Great C Symphony stuck in my head, and I realized that has been happening a lot with my Bruckner listening. If this started after the posts on the Schubert-Bruckner connection, then you could chalk it up to the power of suggestion, but I think it started before I read any of that.

Right now, the 5th is not a favorite, but that could well change after more listens.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 31, 2015, 09:43:42 AM
Symphony no 8: Karajan and the WP, 1988 (DGG) in its newest incarnation, all 83 minutes on a single 'Originals' cd. Two of my top 5 recordings are with the WP (Böhm and Schuricht). This gets the full five star rating, but a bit lower in the scale. It's the best Karajan version I have heard, but it still hangs fire in places despite the tremendously intense orchestral response. There is a 'best ever' Karajan 8th somewhere, but I think it remained in the conductor's head. I wonder about that fabled very last performance - same forces - in Carnegie Hall...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on May 31, 2015, 11:41:26 AM
Interesting.  My rating for this performance is 3-1/2 stars, bordering on 4 due to the excellence of the orchestral playing.  But it did nothing for me emotionally nor spiritually compared with:

Jochum/Bamberger - St. Florian or Japan
Celibidache/MPO - Japan or Munich
Tennestedt/BSO
Wand/Lubeck
Giulini/VPO

Will soon be listening to Boulez/VPO at St. Florian.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 31, 2015, 12:53:26 PM
Somebody has placed a (somewhat smeary) videotape of the Bamberg/Jochum Eighth from the Japanese concert on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/v/cVJI-_256tg

And somebody else has placed the Concertgebouw performance from September 26, 1984 on YouTube as well:

First and Second Movements:

https://www.youtube.com/v/CVsxccYQacU

Third:

https://www.youtube.com/v/oq5KFyZcLv0

Fourth:

https://www.youtube.com/v/MxjXNXFHiyc
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on May 31, 2015, 02:41:08 PM
Thanks for posting these, Cato.  The RCO performance was issued by Tahra, but it is sadly OOP, and youtube audio leaves a great deal to be desired. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on May 31, 2015, 07:33:23 PM
Boulez/VPO... who'd have thought it.  Wow!!!!  What an impressive performance, at all levels.  Well played, engaging, deeply moving, and uplifting.  Hard to ask for anything more.

Definitely at or near the top of my favorites for Bruckner 8, although I will have to listen again to Celi/MPO in Japan, Giulini/VPO, late Jochum and a few others.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 31, 2015, 09:04:59 PM
Quote from: merlin on May 31, 2015, 07:33:23 PM
Boulez/VPO... who'd have thought it.  Wow!!!!  What an impressive performance, at all levels.  Well played, engaging, deeply moving, and uplifting.  Hard to ask for anything more.

Definitely at or near the top of my favorites for Bruckner 8, although I will have to listen again to Celi/MPO in Japan, Giulini/VPO, late Jochum and a few others.

Who'd have thought? Only myself and TheGSMoeller and Sarge and..... :D Glad you're with us!


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 01, 2015, 01:19:22 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 31, 2015, 09:04:59 PM
Who'd have thought? Only myself and TheGSMoeller and Sarge and..... :D Glad you're with us!

Yes, and people were skeptical when Boulez started his Mahler cycle for DGG, (some may still be  $:) ) but I found the recordings to be excellent.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on June 05, 2015, 08:56:48 AM
Listened to Gerd Schaller with the Philharmonie Festiva in B8 last night.  He uses a score from around 1888, which is part way between the original version and later revisions.

It was a most interesting experience to hear the work-in-progress, although there is a great deal of the so-called final version in it.

There is a detailed review at http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Aug13/Bruckner_sy8_PH13027.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Aug13/Bruckner_sy8_PH13027.htm)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 10, 2015, 05:52:50 PM
I am studying the Ninth, of which more anon. However, one funny thing I have noticed is this: I have the Eulenburg minature score (1951 Nowak, revised 1994); I have also dowloaded a PDF of the score from www.abruckner.com which seems to be a Eulenburg score printed between 1934 and 1956 in that it is not the Loewe edition, but seems to be almost identical to the 1951/94 score.

However, there is one interesting difference. In the Scherzo there is a note that the third flute alternate with a 'kleiner floete' when indicated. I assume this is a piccolo. I have listened to the recordings I have and they don't seem to use a piccolo, though the passages indicated are all loud tuttis, and I'm not sure that you would even hear it.

Does anyone have any information on this? As I said, I don't think it's a Loewe-ism.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 10, 2015, 06:01:28 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 10, 2015, 05:52:50 PM
I am studying the Ninth, of which more anon. However, one funny thing I have noticed is this: I have the Eulenburg minature score (1951 Nowak, revised 1994); I have also dowloaded a PDF of the score from www.abruckner.com which seems to be a Eulenburg score printed between 1934 and 1956 in that it is not the Loewe edition, but seems to be almost identical to the 1951/94 score.

However, there is one interesting difference. In the Scherzo there is a note that the third flute alternate with a 'kleiner floete' when indicated. I assume this is a piccolo. I have listened to the recordings I have and they don't seem to use a piccolo, though the passages indicated are all loud tuttis, and I'm not sure that you would even hear it.

Does anyone have any information on this? As I said, I don't think it's a Loewe-ism.

My "official" Nowak score from 1951/1965 published by the International Bruckner Society has nothing about a "kleine Floete"  in the Scherzo.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on June 10, 2015, 11:39:26 PM
Any thoughts on Sinopoli's Bruckner recordings? Recommended?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on June 11, 2015, 01:30:04 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on June 10, 2015, 11:39:26 PM
Any thoughts on Sinopoli's Bruckner recordings? Recommended?

Yes. His Fifth is a dark-horse recommendation so widely recommended, it's not at all a dark horse anymore. The rest is insightful to great!
The set is becoming increasingly affordable, Japanese-origined though it is: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 13, 2015, 05:16:19 PM
I have written an essay on why the reconstructed finale of the Ninth works, which might interest some.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/a899bg9g47sjtbz/Why_the_Reconstructed_Finale_of_the_Ninth_Works.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/view/a899bg9g47sjtbz/Why_the_Reconstructed_Finale_of_the_Ninth_Works.pdf)

I would welcome any comments or criticisms. Probably best to message me off the forum.

Enjoy.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 27, 2015, 05:35:39 PM
'Nother question:

I read in an early account of Bruckner's life that in his house in Vienna he had a piano and a chamber organ. Do anyone know how a chamber organ of the 1870s or 80s operated. Did Bruckner still need someone to pump, or had they become mechanised by some means by this stage?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on June 28, 2015, 08:49:57 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 27, 2015, 05:35:39 PM
'Nother question:

I read in an early account of Bruckner's life that in his house in Vienna he had a piano and a chamber organ. Do anyone know how a chamber organ of the 1870s or 80s operated. Did Bruckner still need someone to pump, or had they become mechanised by some means by this stage?

Foot-operated billows instead of pedals.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 28, 2015, 01:15:41 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 28, 2015, 08:49:57 AM
Foot-operated billows instead of pedals.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 28, 2015, 01:31:17 PM
Three recently heard versions of the 9th: Sinopoli and the Staatskapelle, Dresden; Dudamel and the Gothenburg Symhony; Thielemann and the Munich Philharmonic. All three stem from live concerts.

The Sinopoli is solid, unflamboyant, slightly constipated. Magnificently performed by an orchestra that never veers from their trademark sound. On DGG

Dudamel leads a magnificent version, sensitive yet volatile, powerful and massive. The Gothenburg play as if possessed. They outdo their own great self in the next climax. The sound is close, almost saturated. The Gothenburg hall is one of the best concert venues in Europe. DGG and a clear winner.

A tired, self-obsessed and languid version by the Münchner Philharmoniker under Thielemann, who easily clocks in as the longest of the three. Even Klemperer is faster and much lighter. The orchestra plays very well, but without audible involvement.

Dudamel moves in the top 10 or 15 versions. The others are best left aside.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 28, 2015, 03:20:41 PM
Another 9th: Zubin Mehta and  the wiener Philharmoniker. Live from May 2009.

45 years after their epoch-making Decca recording, here is a live interpretation where the mestro ought to have had everything 'click' just as before. Some gestures are similar, tempi are broadly the same (the scherzo is slower), but the orchestral sound is now quite different : beefed up, more sonorous and equalized, less sanguine  (those 1965 horns and wagner tuben!). At first listen, some of the ol' fire seems to have gotten out of the Indian maestro's belly.

I will re-listen to that 1965 recording soon - 'twas my first ever B9 way back when.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on June 29, 2015, 11:56:16 AM
Quote from: André on June 28, 2015, 01:31:17 PM
The Sinopoli is solid, unflamboyant, slightly constipated. Magnificently performed by an orchestra that never veers from their trademark sound. On DGG

That is one of my favorite 9ths. I love its non-ostentatiousness, focus and almost blueprintish clarity.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 04, 2015, 06:43:12 PM
Bruckner said that the second subject of the first movement of the 4th was based on the song of the Great Tit (Parus major, a chickadee).

Here are some recordings of the Great Tit's many songs and calls.

http://www.xeno-canto.org/explore?query=great+tit+cnt%3A%22Germany%22

The twentieth recording (by "Sonnenburg" .23 seconds), seems to have the right rhythm for the 4th.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 06, 2015, 09:23:42 AM
The Dudamel 9th I had listened to was a download, with compressed and sometimes distorted sound. I liked  it enough to purchase it in its original format (3 discs, DGG. Comes with Nielsen 4 and 5, and Sibelius 2). A re-listen confirms it as an important interpretation. It also unmasks some weird noises I was thinking were patches of swish or distortion: I can now hear clearly those big breath intakes the conductor indulges in in moments of excitement. The Dude is one big sniffer.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on July 06, 2015, 09:39:19 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 04, 2015, 06:43:12 PM
Bruckner said that the second subject of the first movement of the 4th was based on the song of the Great Tit (Parus major, a chickadee).

Here are some recordings of the Great Tit's many songs and calls.

http://www.xeno-canto.org/explore?query=great+tit+cnt%3A%22Germany%22

The twentieth recording (by "Sonnenburg" .23 seconds), seems to have the right rhythm for the 4th.

:) Very nice!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on July 08, 2015, 05:52:35 PM
I am wondering about Simone Young's interpretations.  From what I have read, she uses more-or-less original versions of the symphonies, prior to editing by others, including Bruckner himself.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on July 11, 2015, 05:56:46 PM
I just listened to the 8th at Naxos Music Library. What a terrific performance, and excellent SQ even with headphones and PC audio.

I could discern differences between this edition and the others I have heard, but in no way did they lessen the impact.

Marvellous, in all respects!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 13, 2015, 10:10:02 AM
Quote from: merlin on July 11, 2015, 05:56:46 PM
I just listened to the 8th at Naxos Music Library. What a terrific performance, and excellent SQ even with headphones and PC audio.

I could discern differences between this edition and the others I have heard, but in no way did they lessen the impact.

Marvellous, in all respects!

That would be...the Simone Young CD mentioned earlier?

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on July 13, 2015, 10:37:33 AM
Yes.  One major difference between the version she uses and others I have heard is the ending of the first movement.  Rather than fading away, there is a loud tutti with strong brass.

Also, the fourth movement reprise and coda are a bit different from later editions.

Here is a detailed examination of both the original version and subsequent edited one.

http://www.oehmsclassics.de/artikel.aspx?voeid=3500

Definitely worth a listen.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 13, 2015, 05:03:21 PM
Re: the versions of Bruckner symphonies. This is a very complicated topic. I myself subscribe to the Robert Simpson thesis: that where different versions of symphony exist the earliest version is the best, and that while Bruckner may have improved certain passages in his symphonies by revision, he did not improve any symphony overall. (It is important to read the 1992 edition of The Essence of Bruckner for the latest version of Simpson's ideas, not the 1960s initial version, because in the later work he improved his account by discussing editions that had appeared subsequent to the first version of his work. It is unfortunate that the 1960s version was printed and reprinted in large print runs, and most libraries have one of these, the 1992 version was only printed in a small print run and is quite difficult to get hold of).

With the symphonies 00, 0, 5, 6, 7, 9 there are only unimportant differences between versions, (ignoring outright falsifications like the Schalks' version of 5, or Löwe's version of 9).
With symphonies 1, 2, 3 the earliest versions are preferable.

HOWEVER, there are two exceptions to the Simpson rule, 4 and 8, where the first versions are weaker. With 4 Bruckner produced a work that had a very weak scherzo, and first and last movements that were improved in subsequent revisions such that the 1880 version is the most satisfactory. In the case of 8 the all movements were revised with advantage after the first version and the trio of the scherzo was replaced.

How do we account for this? I think that in the cases of both these symphonies Bruckner was feeling unusually confident when he undertook their composition, and produced the first versions very quickly. In the case of 4 Bruckner had just produced 3 (first version of course), which he must have known was a major breakthrough for him (and he had not yet experienced the humiliating set-backs with the performance of it), and he wrote the first version of 4 in little more than a year. In the case of 8 he had just produced 7, and as he was writing 8 7 was successful in various performances. This symphony he completed in around 2 years.

In both cases I would argue that Bruckner presented the world with a pre-first version which did need to be revised, as unwonted confidence caused him to rush the composition process and overlook flaws that his normal process would have revised away. In the case of 4 we should regard the 1880 version as the first version (and remember that subsequent to 1880 Bruckner again revised this symphony, this time ruining it in the usual way of his later revisions). As for 8, the Haas version probably represents something like a first version in that it contains Bruckner's initial revisions to the 1887 version, but doesn't make all the changes that Bruckner made in the 1890 version (ed Nowak). This 1890 version shows Bruckner beginning to slip down the slide of ruining this symphony with revisions.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on July 14, 2015, 07:34:05 AM
Having just compared Simone Young's recording of the original version of Bruckner 8 with Pierre Boulez's Haas, the latter is clearly better, for me.  The pianissimo ending to the first movement in the revision is far more moving than the triple forte of the original.

Also, the recapitulation and coda of the revision is a big improvement over the original.  Much more frissons and emotions.

The different trio is not such a big deal, however.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on July 14, 2015, 08:04:11 AM
Young's recording of the 3rd is my favourite recording of my favourite Bruckner.  Largely due to the sumptious sound, it has to be said.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 14, 2015, 08:57:37 AM
Quote from: merlin on July 14, 2015, 07:34:05 AM
Having just compared Simone Young's recording of the original version of Bruckner 8 with Pierre Boulez's Haas, the latter is clearly better, for me.  The pianissimo ending to the first movement in the revision is far more moving than the triple forte of the original.

Also, the recapitulation and coda of the revision is a big improvement over the original.  Much more frissons and emotions.

The different trio is not such a big deal, however.

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 13, 2015, 05:03:21 PM

HOWEVER, there are two exceptions to the Simpson rule, 4 and 8, where the first versions are weaker. With 4 Bruckner produced a work that had a very weak scherzo, and first and last movements that were improved in subsequent revisions such that the 1880 version is the most satisfactory. In the case of 8 the all movements were revised with advantage after the first version and the trio of the scherzo was replaced.

How do we account for this? I think that in the cases of both these symphonies Bruckner was feeling unusually confident when he undertook their composition, and produced the first versions very quickly. In the case of 4 Bruckner had just produced 3 (first version of course), which he must have known was a major breakthrough for him (and he had not yet experienced the humiliating set-backs with the performance of it), and he wrote the first version of 4 in little more than a year. In the case of 8 he had just produced 7, and as he was writing 8, 7 was successful in various performances. This symphony he completed in around 2 years.

In both cases I would argue that Bruckner presented the world with a pre-first version which did need to be revised, as unwonted confidence caused him to rush the composition process and overlook flaws that his normal process would have revised away. In the case of 4 we should regard the 1880 version as the first version (and remember that subsequent to 1880 Bruckner again revised this symphony, this time ruining it in the usual way of his later revisions). As for 8, the Haas version probably represents something like a first version in that it contains Bruckner's initial revisions to the 1887 version...


Yes, I believe Calyptorhynchus is on target here, which is why you (and most other people) prefer the second version of the Eighth, and why the revised Fourth remains the choice for most.  The deduction that Bruckner perhaps "rushed" things is not impossible.

Exactly why Bruckner did such and such will never be known: perhaps even he was not sure.  That Levi's response of incomprehension was the impetus for the first major revisions is clear, but I have often read an interpretation that the quiet ending to the revised first movement was a symbol of Bruckner's "depression" from Levi's rejection.  To me such psycho-musicology has always been suspect, and one can say that upon second thought, Bruckner may have found the new idea structurally and emotionally more logical with the sense of despair, struggle, and conquest found throughout the work.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on July 14, 2015, 09:07:06 AM
Well said, Cato!  And thanks for your cogent analysis, Calyptorhynchus.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 14, 2015, 03:31:50 PM
Congrats on insightful posts, Calyptor and Cato. I 'mostly' agree with your findings on the various versions of the symphonies - knowing that an internet music thread is not the place for finely-honed arguments and supercilious itsy-bitsy finenesses.

It is true - and bizarre - that in some cases the first versions are deemed superior and later versions just the same - but not the same ones !!. How could such anomalies co-exist ?

First, Bruckner was a bizarre animal. Among the Great Originals in the history of music, he also happens to have been one of the most unsecure, deferrent, self-denying human beings ever to pen great music. Usually, the opposite is true: a great artist's ego will tend to inflate, deflect and obfuscate the real quality of his/her music. Think of Wagner, Mahler, Scriabine or Strawinsky. Often, the self-doubt and ego would counteract one another in producing an overall balanced portrait of the artist's capabilities: think of Tchaikovsky, Sibelius, Beethoven, Schumann, Shostakovich.

Seldom - if ever - has a composer been so subservient to received opinion and criticism as Bruckner. The sheer growing acquaintance, acknowledgement, receiving, pioneering, advocating and proselytizing of his music over the last 100 years should serve as measure for this hugely humble composer's immense genius.

So, it should not be surprising that, in many cases, this Schubert-Schumann-Beethoven formalist should vie with the liberation, explosion of harmonic language that was to become dominant with Wagner, and therefore conflict head-on with the much more organized but more conservative genius of Brahms. It was a period of conflicts and clashes. And Bruckner was ultimately embroiled in this eternal conflict of the artist: move forward, but always leave your testament clear to others. One of the only artist to move formward and never look back was Rimbaud. But Bruckner was no Rimbaud - nor did he have Wagner's huge cult and financial backing to help him move forward and not second-guess his own works.

What we have is a composer who throughout his life fought between forward-looking music (harmonies, orchestration, rythms) and the received forms that were more certain of gaining him acceptance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 14, 2015, 04:17:36 PM
Following this long post, here is a recension  of what are, I think, the salient features of Bruckner's symphony versions.

- First, as has already been mentioned, once spurious re-orchestrated and cut versions have been discarded (notably the Mahler 4th and Schalke 5th), there are very little - minute, indeed - differences between the various versions of symphonies 00, 0, 6, 7 and 9. Therefore, differences that Bruckner has included in his symphonies are as follow (very briefly put):

- 1: orchestration differences between the sparer, bolder and better 'Linz' version and the more effusively orchestrasted 'Vienna' version.

- 2 - the "original" version is worth getting acquainted with. It's a great work, fully comparable to the tighter, tauter later version. Two of which are very similar except that they diverge over the orchestration of the Adagio's coda. One has the final, forlorn melody allotted to a solo horn (vey difficult) and the other one gives it to the clarinet.

- 3. This is the most complicated and needs a full thread. Basically, there is an original version (I) that lasts between 65 and 80 minutes, with very substantial differences in I, II and IV, including a full bevvy of quotes from Wagner's operas. Then there is an "interim" version (Oeser, version II to simplify matters) where I, II and IV are shortened (Wagner quotes excised) and then, there is the 'final' version where I, II and IV are further shortened, to a mere 53-55 minutes. This is where Bruckner the composer it at his most enigmatic. Personally, I take my cue from the movement that is both the least changed and the most characteristic: one of Bruckner's trademark scherzos. If one places the scherzo in relation to the other movements, it becomes clear that, structurally, the shortened text is the one that 'homes in' that scherzo best. Only then can the 'problem' of the Finale can be broached. It is very long, diffuse and beautiful in I, long but powerful in II, and dramatic in III. The problem in the latter is that the structure is left hanging on the rope for all to see. Sections follow/alternate with little connection. Therefore, my recommendation is to have at least one recording of each version on hand, listen and study differences, and make up one's own mind.

I personally prefer the 1873 Oeser version (II), but remember: GREAT conductors have believed in, and recorded all three versions, and the musical results can be outstanding any which way.

4 - The consensus is that the first version of this work is a diffuse, almost dislocated work, containing in germ great figments of the composer's imagination. The 1878-1880 version is much more organic, integrated within movements and fabulously orchestrated. I have always found that the first version was a draft, a blueprint. Mahler may have thought as much, and produced a dramatically shortened and reorchestrated edition - probably more a student's 'thesis' than an artist's effort. The quixotic and diffuse first version is akin to listening to Smetana's full 'My Country': okay for a once-in-five-years foray. Get the later version. The cymbal clash in IV is only incidental. Some conductors who include it (Nowak Edition) make nothing of it. Others who don't (Haas Edition) manage to pack more puch out of the text. My opinion: it's an indulgence, and a slightly vulgar one.

7 - The only difference between texts is the cymbal+drums orchestration at the climax of III. Contrary to the slightly vulgar effect of the 4:IV bit just mentioned, the effect is better integrated in the texture and the tempo of that great movement. Therefore it's a matter of finding the interpretation that suits one's inclinations best. Don't let that bit of orchetration distract you from the rest of the work. Hint: whent it says 'Nowak', the timps and cymbals have been added /altered.

8 - Like 3, this one deserves a full thread. Auspices and results are the same: totally different works. In this case I find the END results far more satisfying in all respects: whereas the initial work (rejected by Hermann Levi) was beautiful, powerful but diffuse and disorganised (MY opinion), the final version is on the same level as Mozart 39-41 or Wagner's Götterdämmerung. Additional bit of info: the Haas and Nowak versions differ in the fact that Nowak correctly presents Bruckner's final text, whereas Nowak second-guesses the composer and interpolates bits that Bruckner had excised in III and IV. Therefore, Haas presents a 'fuller' but hypothetical text. 50% choose Haas (notably Karajan), 50% Nowak  (including Jochum). It matters not one bit.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 14, 2015, 04:39:10 PM
Great post, Andre. I've been obsessed with the the different versions of each symphony, especially the 2nd and 3rd.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Pat B on July 15, 2015, 07:55:27 AM
Quote from: André on July 14, 2015, 04:17:36 PM
I personally prefer the 1873 Oeser version (II), but remember: GREAT conductors have believed in, and recorded all three versions, and the musical results can be outstanding any which way.

I am confused! According to Berky's discography, the commonly-recorded versions are:

1873 Original Version Ed. Leopold Nowak [1977]
1877 Version Ed. Leopld Nowak (with Scherzo coda) [1981]
1878 Version Ed. Fritz Oeser (Scherzo coda not included) Based on 1880 Stichvorlage
1889 Version (aka 1888/89) Ed. Leopold Nowak [1959]
1890 Thorough revision Bruckner with Joseph and Franz Schalk Ed. Theodor Raettig

Plus:
1876 Adagio only Ed. Leopold Nowak [1980]

I guess you excluded the 1890 revision (rarely recorded since the 1960s), and I guess you lumped 1877 and 1878 together as "II." Some part of "1873 Oeser version (II)" must have been a typo -- I guess you meant 1878 there? When there are this many versions, I think it would be best to refer to the different versions by year and/or editor, not as "I," "II," "III."

Lest that sound too critical, thanks for the descriptions of the differences. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 15, 2015, 08:22:39 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 14, 2015, 04:39:10 PM
Great post, Andre. I've been obsessed with the the different versions of each symphony, especially the 2nd and 3rd.

Yes, many thanks to Andre' for taking time to write these nice essays!

I reared myself on the Jochum recordings of the Nowak versions, and picked up the bias that the Haas editions were nice tries, but not as authentic as the Nowak.   Since then I have heard various recordings of original versions of e.g. II and III and was quite taken with them also! 

So keep that mind open!

Having read many things about Bruckner and extant letters by him, the duality mentioned by Andre' is apparent, along with a stubbornness that, while he might have to compromise with cuts and so on, eventually his "original"   ;)  complete conceptions would be accepted. 

I have also often wondered about all the space given to Bruckner in Alma Mahler's reminiscences of her husband.  Commentators have mentioned that her memories are not always to be trusted for accuracy.  But I am not worried about that in this sense: simply that by including so many stories about Bruckner she must have been indicating how important Bruckner was to Mahler, and not just as a teacher of music.  Andre's comment about Bruckner showing little of the egotism seen in many other composers is well taken: what did the young Mahler see in Bruckner's humble personality?  A father-figure?  A grandfather who needed to be protected?

For a possible answer, see this marvelous essay by Bruno Walter from 1940's Chord and Discord: it is one of the most incisive and objective examinations of the connections between Bruckner and Mahler both personally and musically.

http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/articles/bruckner/brucknerandmahler.php (http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/articles/bruckner/brucknerandmahler.php)

Some excerpts:

Quote...Nine symphonies composed by Bruckner, as well as Mahler, in the course of about thirty years, constitute the chief product of their creative power. The nature of the themes, developments, combinations, is (in keeping with their creator's nature) truly symphonic. Remarkable coincidences in the periodic progress of their work are the decisive step from the Third to the Fourth and the change of style between the Fourth and Fifth symphonies. The Fourth of each opens a new field of expression scarcely glimpsed in his previous works. A warm, romantic light rises over Bruckner's hitherto heroic tone-world; a tender fairy-tale-like idyll soothes Mahler's tempestuous heart. For both the Fifth, with its intensification of the polyphonic style, inaugurates the period of mature mastery. The laconic idiom of restraint, the art of mere suggestion, involving economy of means and form, is not theirs...

...To Mahler as well as Bruckner music never was the means of expressing something, but rather the end itself. He never disregarded its inherent principles for the sake of expression. It was the element in which both masters lived, impelled by their nature toward symphonic construction. Mahler's enchanted creative night was filled with violently changing dream-forms; Bruckner's was dominated by a single lofty vision. Since Bruckner (so far as I know) had, until his death in 1896, acquired no acquaintance with Mahler's work, whereas the latter was well versed in Bruckner's art, it remains to be considered whether it was not this influence, acting only upon the younger composer, that aroused the impression of the kinship felt by Mahler himself. Without a certain relationship, however, no influence can be exerted. Moreover, Mahler's individual tonal language reveals no sign of dependence, whether similarity or reminiscence. Yet we find in one of his main works, the Second, indications of a deeper, essential kinship and meet with occasional "Bruckner" characteristics down to Mahler's very last creations. Nevertheless he was as little dependent upon Bruckner as Brahms upon Schumann, many of whose "characteristics" haunt the work of Brahms. To both Bruckner-Mahler may be applied the Faust-verdict concerning Byron-Euphorion: to each of them was granted "a song his very own," i.e., originality....

Nevertheless (Bruckner's) personality must have been attractive, for almost all reports agree upon the peculiar fascination exerted by his naivete, piety, homely simplicity, and modesty, bordering at times on servility, as borne out by many of his letters. I explain this attractive power of his strange personality to myself as due to the radiance of his lofty, godly soul, the splendor of his musical genius glimmering through his unpretending homeliness. If his presence could hardly be felt as "interesting", it was heartwarming, yes, uplifting.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 15, 2015, 04:04:52 PM
Super, Cato, thanks for that insightful post. Walter never recorded 3 and 6, for which he would have been naturelly suited. Too bad...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 15, 2015, 04:12:27 PM
Quote from: Pat B on July 15, 2015, 07:55:27 AM
I am confused! According to Berky's discography, the commonly-recorded versions are:

1873 Original Version Ed. Leopold Nowak [1977]
1877 Version Ed. Leopld Nowak (with Scherzo coda) [1981]
1878 Version Ed. Fritz Oeser (Scherzo coda not included) Based on 1880 Stichvorlage
1889 Version (aka 1888/89) Ed. Leopold Nowak [1959]
1890 Thorough revision Bruckner with Joseph and Franz Schalk Ed. Theodor Raettig

Plus:
1876 Adagio only Ed. Leopold Nowak [1980]

I guess you excluded the 1890 revision (rarely recorded since the 1960s), and I guess you lumped 1877 and 1878 together as "II." Some part of "1873 Oeser version (II)" must have been a typo -- I guess you meant 1878 there? When there are this many versions, I think it would be best to refer to the different versions by year and/or editor, not as "I," "II," "III."

Lest that sound too critical, thanks for the descriptions of the differences. :)

Yea, typo indeed, sorry (1873 Oeser never existed of course).  The 3rd underwent 3 different versions, as opposed to editions. A Bruckner version is what the composer wrote down. An edition is what an editor (Haas and Nowak for example) published of the Master's versions, mostly technical or small textual refinements. In the case of the 3rd, 1877-78 are often lumped together (vide the Kubelik Sony liner notes), whereas technically they could be separated because of small editorial differences. Some egregious differences for example are the coda that Bruckner appended to the scherzo, and a separate slow movement that did not make it to the finishing line when AB laid his pen down on this work. It is both a new text (version) that has been retained or discarded depending on the versions.  ???
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Pat B on July 16, 2015, 05:35:13 AM
Okay, thanks. I think I understand. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on September 09, 2015, 12:31:43 AM
 fresh from Forbes:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)

AUG 22, 2015
The 2015 Bayreuth Festival: Tristan & Isolde

T'was a coolly refreshing evening in the inner courtyard of the vast baroque priory
of St. Florian in Upper Austria, just before the final concert of the St. Florian
BrucknerTage (Bruckner-Days) on August 21: The brass section of the Altomonte
Orchestra – basically a purpose-assembled summer-band – get rid of excess energy
by regaling the guests of the monastery's restaurant with a selection of brass-band
favorites from hunting songs to Wagner chorales: Got you in the mood alright for
Bruckner's Ninth Symphony under Rémy Ballot, a Sergiù Celibidache disciple with a
penchant for glorious length, especially in the music of Anton Bruckner.

For this grand finale of the week-long celebration of Bruckner, the vast, gorgeous
baroque basilica was filled to the brim, except for the side balconies, allegedly among
the best places but cordoned off on this occasion. (That fact made a most determined
Austrian journalist lady – habitually taking her seat there and with little intention to
yielding to some stripling with a badge squeaking "Verboten" – reveal a whole new
color-range in her vocabulary when she ultimately had to follow others' instructions
over her instinct.) With everyone seated and standing in the right places, the sounds
of Debussy's Images pour orchestra, the concert's amuse-gueule, rose to the organ
balcony on which I had found myself at the last minute...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/09/08/the-second-coming-of-sergiu-celibidache-bruckner-in-st-florian/
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2015/09/Forbes_Bruckner_StFlorian_Ballot-3_jens-f-laurson.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/09/08/the-second-coming-of-sergiu-celibidache-bruckner-in-st-florian/)
...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on September 09, 2015, 12:41:55 AM
Quote from: André on July 14, 2015, 04:17:36 PM
4 - The consensus is that the first version of this work is a diffuse, almost dislocated work, containing in germ great figments of the composer's imagination. The 1878-1880 version is much more organic, integrated within movements and fabulously orchestrated. I have always found that the first version was a draft, a blueprint. Mahler may have thought as much, and produced a dramatically shortened and reorchestrated edition - probably more a student's 'thesis' than an artist's effort. The quixotic and diffuse first version is akin to listening to Smetana's full 'My Country': okay for a once-in-five-years foray. Get the later version. The cymbal clash in IV is only incidental. Some conductors who include it (Nowak Edition) make nothing of it. Others who don't (Haas Edition) manage to pack more puch out of the text. My opinion: it's an indulgence, and a slightly vulgar one.
I actually really like the 1874 finale. I'm not sure why. Rhythmically I suppose it's unique, far ahead of its time—too far for Bruckner's confidence, and the revisions are toned down greatly. Also more polished and better orchestrated. But the original finale has something they don't (neither the 'Volksfest' nor the final finale). The revised version is unimpeachably better in the first three movements though. Particularly the first movement fares better.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on September 11, 2015, 09:40:26 AM
Quote from: André on July 14, 2015, 04:17:36 PM
4 - The consensus is that the first version of this work is a diffuse, almost dislocated work, containing in germ great figments of the composer's imagination. The 1878-1880 version is much more organic, integrated within movements and fabulously orchestrated. I have always found that the first version was a draft, a blueprint. Mahler may have thought as much, and produced a dramatically shortened and reorchestrated edition - probably more a student's 'thesis' than an artist's effort. The quixotic and diffuse first version is akin to listening to Smetana's full 'My Country': okay for a once-in-five-years foray. Get the later version. The cymbal clash in IV is only incidental. Some conductors who include it (Nowak Edition) make nothing of it. Others who don't (Haas Edition) manage to pack more puch out of the text. My opinion: it's an indulgence, and a slightly vulgar one.

It has always struck me that the negative impressions so many have of the 1874 version of the 4th have more to do with tentative, inadequate interpretations rather than with the work itself. You have to consider that here the original version is so categorically different from the final product that it is in effect an entirely separate symphony. When you then compare the reluctant, tentative and often uncommitted performances of some orchestras and conductors of the first version against the final version, for which there is a long established performance tradition and the score of which most orchestra musicians these days basically have in their bones, one gets the impression that the first version is an inferior work. But I don't believe it is. I actually think it is a much bolder work, more daring, more modern, in some ways pointing farther ahead towards his later symphonies than the final more conservative and backward looking version. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 11, 2015, 03:40:42 PM
Quote from: MishaK on September 11, 2015, 09:40:26 AM
It has always struck me that the negative impressions so many have of the 1874 version of the 4th have more to do with tentative, inadequate interpretations rather than with the work itself. You have to consider that here the original version is so categorically different from the final product that it is in effect an entirely separate symphony. When you then compare the reluctant, tentative and often uncommitted performances of some orchestras and conductors of the first version against the final version, for which there is a long established performance tradition and the score of which most orchestra musicians these days basically have in their bones, one gets the impression that the first version is an inferior work. But I don't believe it is. I actually think it is a much bolder work, more daring, more modern, in some ways pointing farther ahead towards his later symphonies than the final more conservative and backward looking version.

Well said, Misha. I really like this verse, I also believe the coda from the original 4th is much more exciting than the revised. Nagano and Russell-Davies are the two recordings I own, both superbly performed and make great statements on Bruckner's initial word.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on September 12, 2015, 09:45:22 AM
I alert all and sundry that Leif Segerstam, the one-man composer of 300 symphonies and conductor of two Sibelius cycles has turned his conducting attentions to the symphonies of Bruckner. The 7th has been received to great acclaim. The much controversial interpretation of the 8th with a truly glorious BBCSO is available on youtube - all 102 minutes of it. It was aired at the Proms in February 2015. I listened to about 1/4 (25 minutes is my maximum youtube concentration period). It IS spectacular in its way and rather different from Celibidache's equally protracted view. I hope a cd edition come out of that peculiar venture. The UK music critics were sharply divided.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on September 12, 2015, 09:57:45 AM
Quote from: André on September 12, 2015, 09:45:22 AM
I alert all and sundry that Leif Segerstam, the one-man composer of 300 symphonies and conductor of two Sibelius cycles has turned his conducting attentions to the symphonies of Bruckner. The 7th has been received to great acclaim. The much controversial interpretation of the 8th with a truly glorious BBCSO is available on youtube - all 102 minutes of it. It was aired at the Proms in February 2015. I listened to about 1/4 (25 minutes is my maximum youtube concentration period). It IS spectacular in its way and rather different from Celibidache's equally protracted view. I hope a cd edition come out of that peculiar venture. The UK music critics were sharply divided.
An early Christmas present for Brucknerians indeed.

https://www.youtube.com/v/F5nEaZdUj34
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 12, 2015, 03:11:44 PM
Quote from: North Star on September 12, 2015, 09:57:45 AM
An early Christmas present for Brucknerians indeed.

https://www.youtube.com/v/F5nEaZdUj34

I sure hope this gets on CD. One of the best, if not the best, handling of the finale's coda. Some powerful stuff, not surprised as Segertam constantly impresses me with his interpretations. Still my favorite Sibelius cycle.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Christo on September 13, 2015, 03:58:43 AM
Quote from: André on September 12, 2015, 09:45:22 AMLeif Segerstam, the one-man composer of 300 symphonies

286, at the last count: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_symphonies_by_Leif_Segerstam
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on October 12, 2015, 08:38:09 AM
A fine performance of 4th Symphony (1874 version), NDR Sinfonieorchester Hamburg / Thomas Hengelbrock.

https://www.youtube.com/v/VtRnp8r_bH0
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on October 16, 2015, 02:38:02 AM
Any fans of Bruckner's string quintet? It's a real beauty. The String quartet ain't bad either.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on October 16, 2015, 04:33:27 AM
Quote from: Alberich on October 16, 2015, 02:38:02 AM
Any fans of Bruckner's string quintet? It's a real beauty. The String quartet ain't bad either.

Yes, regarding the string quintet.  A big fan of it.  :)

I've heard a few movements for string quartet, but not a complete string quartet?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on October 16, 2015, 06:13:51 AM
There is a complete string quartet as a "filler" on the Archibudelli/Sony recording. As I recall it, it is a very early (study) piece that did not leave much of an impression (tbh I hardly remember anything about it). It only was "re-discovered" by the leader of the Bavarian Koeckert Quartett in the 1950s or early 1960s.

The string quintet is a fascinating piece and worth anyone's attention, although I'd probably lie if I said I loved it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 16, 2015, 09:35:26 PM
Bruckner's String Quintet is fully as marvellous as any of his symphonies. I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of the new recording by the Fitzwilliam Quintet which uses instruments strung with gut (period instruments if you will). The recording also includes the alternative version of the Scherzo (the Intermezzo) that Bruckner wrote when the original movement was felt to be too bold. I haven't heard this before. And it includes the String Quartet.

BTW the Quintet (which dates from between the Fifth and Sixth Symphonies is harmonically very bold. The first movement is in the tonic (F major), but the next two movements hardly touch on this key. The finale starts in another key and it doesn't get back to F major properly until the recapitulation, in other words the tonic is in abeyance from the end of the first movement to two-thirds of way through the finale. This, almost other evidence always makes me impatient with people who claim that the SPCM performing version of the finale of the Ninth is too unorthodox harmonically.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on October 16, 2015, 11:44:16 PM
I think of the String Quintet mostly as a vehicle for Bruckner's second- or third-greatest symphonic Adagio. There's actually lots of interesting stuff going on in the rest of the piece, I guess, but you sort of forget about it 30 seconds or so into the third movement.
>.>
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on October 17, 2015, 12:23:27 AM
FWIW, I think the Archibudelli/Sony also has the alternative movement and the early quartet. Gut strings as well. As I almost always prefer the slow movement in a piece by Bruckner, I would not have expected otherwise from the quintet. It's a pity that he wasted so much time with revisions of symphonies instead of writing  a few more chamber pieces.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on October 17, 2015, 03:50:34 AM
Bruckner indeed did compose a work for string quartet, in C minor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKy7jfCQXb0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKy7jfCQXb0)
Title: Bruckner cycle at Carnegie Hall in January 2017
Post by: bhodges on January 30, 2016, 04:45:17 AM
In January of 2017, over ten days at Carnegie Hall, Daniel Barenboim and the Staatskapelle Berlin will do Bruckner's Symphonies 1 through 9, in order. Eight of the concerts (all but the Eighth Symphony) will begin with Mozart, including some of the piano concertos with Barenboim at the keyboard.

Perhaps incredibly, this is the first time a Bruckner cycle has ever been done in Carnegie's 125-year history.

http://www.carnegiehall.org/bruckner/

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner cycle at Carnegie Hall in January 2017
Post by: Cato on January 30, 2016, 05:17:08 AM
Quote from: Brewski on January 30, 2016, 04:45:17 AM
In January of 2017, over ten days at Carnegie Hall, Daniel Barenboim and the Staatskapelle Berlin will do Bruckner's Symphonies 1 through 9, in order. Eight of the concerts (all but the Eighth Symphony) will begin with Mozart, including some of the piano concertos with Barenboim at the keyboard.

Perhaps incredibly, this is the first time a Bruckner cycle has ever been done in Carnegie's 125-year history.

http://www.carnegiehall.org/bruckner/

--Bruce

No love for the Symphony 0 ?   ;)   Last year I heard the Toledo Symphony perform it live at the Roman Catholic Cathedral there.

Any information on whether they use the Nowak vs. Haas vs. other versions?  OR whether they will use the completed Ninth Symphony?
Title: Re: Bruckner cycle at Carnegie Hall in January 2017
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 30, 2016, 05:23:50 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 30, 2016, 05:17:08 AM
No love for the Symphony 0 ?   ;)

Maybe they'll do it as an encore.
Title: Re: Bruckner cycle at Carnegie Hall in January 2017
Post by: bhodges on January 30, 2016, 05:33:59 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 30, 2016, 05:17:08 AM
No love for the Symphony 0 ?   ;)   Last year I heard the Toledo Symphony perform it live at the Roman Catholic Cathedral there.

Any information on whether they use the Nowak vs. Haas vs. other versions?  OR whether they will use the completed Ninth Symphony?

I know, right? (Not to mention the Symphony 00.) And your other questions were exactly those posed by some at the press announcement (with no answers at the moment).

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 30, 2016, 05:23:50 AM
Maybe they'll do it as an encore.

Ha! (*mails suggestion to Barenboim*)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner cycle at Carnegie Hall in January 2017
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 30, 2016, 05:47:24 AM
Quote from: Brewski on January 30, 2016, 05:33:59 AM
I know, right? (Not to mention the Symphony 00.) And your other questions were exactly those posed by some at the press announcement (with no answers at the moment).

Ha! (*mails suggestion to Barenboim*)

--Bruce

I just wonder how many people will go to the whole thing. Much as I love Bruckner, the idea of paying c. $100 a ticket for nine nights in close succession, not to mention transportation and dinner, to hear a set of very long, heavy, not highly varied Romantic symphonies by a single composer, seems to me rather indigestible.
Title: Re: Bruckner cycle at Carnegie Hall in January 2017
Post by: Mirror Image on January 30, 2016, 05:53:21 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 30, 2016, 05:47:24 AM
I just wonder how many people will go to the whole thing. Much as I love Bruckner, the idea of paying c. $100 a ticket for nine nights in close succession, not to mention transportation and dinner, to hear a set of very long, heavy, not highly varied Romantic symphonies by a single composer, seems to me rather indigestible.

Yeah, that would almost be aural torture. No offense to Bruckner (who I love a great deal), but I imagine it would be much more beneficial for the concertgoer who does enjoy Bruckner to just pick and choose what symphonies they want to see in concert. Personally, I'd love to see the 6th and 9th.
Title: Re: Bruckner cycle at Carnegie Hall in January 2017
Post by: Wanderer on January 30, 2016, 06:41:17 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 30, 2016, 05:17:08 AMOR whether they will use the completed Ninth Symphony?

I hope they will (although they probably won't).
Title: Re: Bruckner cycle at Carnegie Hall in January 2017
Post by: Cato on January 30, 2016, 07:11:22 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 30, 2016, 05:47:24 AM
, seems to me rather indigestible.

:o :o :o  Sounds like the ultimate dessert!   8) 8) 8)

Quote from: Brewski on January 30, 2016, 05:33:59 AM
I know, right? (Not to mention the Symphony 00.) And your other questions were exactly those posed by some at the press announcement (with no answers at the moment).

Ha! (*mails suggestion to Barenboim*)

--Bruce

Thanks for the update!  Tell us if Barenboim takes that suggestion!   0:)


Title: Re: Bruckner cycle at Carnegie Hall in January 2017
Post by: Brian on January 30, 2016, 08:30:37 AM
Quote from: Brewski on January 30, 2016, 04:45:17 AM
In January of 2017, over ten days at Carnegie Hall, Daniel Barenboim and the Staatskapelle Berlin will do Bruckner's Symphonies 1 through 9, in order. Eight of the concerts (all but the Eighth Symphony) will begin with Mozart, including some of the piano concertos with Barenboim at the keyboard.

Perhaps incredibly, this is the first time a Bruckner cycle has ever been done in Carnegie's 125-year history.

http://www.carnegiehall.org/bruckner/

--Bruce

Wow, I think I know when my next NYC trip will be! Gotta see at least 6 and 7.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on January 30, 2016, 08:37:42 AM
The density is maybe a bit high but with a Mozart concerto before the intermission, there is some variety ;)
How else should one do this, if at all? It's not that all of them are played within two days...
Title: Re: Bruckner cycle at Carnegie Hall in January 2017
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 30, 2016, 12:01:06 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 30, 2016, 08:30:37 AM
Wow, I think I know when my next NYC trip will be! Gotta see at least 6 and 7.

Let's make sure you survive your first one first.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 30, 2016, 12:13:31 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 30, 2016, 08:37:42 AM
The density is maybe a bit high but with a Mozart concerto before the intermission, there is some variety ;)
How else should one do this, if at all? It's not that all of them are played within two days...

Please remember I spoke only about attending the "whole thing." I'm no great fan of Barenboim, but I would have no objection to hearing one or two of the symphonies (which is in essence what Brian and MI said). But consider what we're up against with this 10-day cycle: the symphonies are long to start with, but most are preceded by a concerto and intermission. Several of the concerts take place on weeknights where people have to work the next day, and they're likely to end at 10:30 or even 11 PM. Since it's a visiting orchestra, ticket prices will easily top $100 apiece, And while people who live in the city can get their dinners at home and use the subway to the hall, anyone out of town has to pay for either train fare or parking and for dinner. That means by the end a person could be paying easily $200 for the night (times 9). And then they have to get home after each concert. That's why I think this a lousy idea.

Back in 1998, the Royal Philharmonic in London did a complete Mahler cycle that was spread out over three months and played under various conductors. I got to hear Gilbert Kaplan doing the 2nd while I was traveling there. That's how else one could do this, if at all.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on January 30, 2016, 12:20:53 PM
The other way would be a one-day marathon of all nine. Start at 10AM, finish around midnight. Presumably with a relay of orchestras/conductors. >.>
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 30, 2016, 12:28:39 PM
Quote from: amw on January 30, 2016, 12:20:53 PM
The other way would be a one-day marathon of all nine. Start at 10AM, finish around midnight. Presumably with a relay of orchestras/conductors. >.>

Oy, vey. And what are you charging for tickets? How long are your intermissions? Are there breaks for meals? How are you going to manage the logistics of shifting conductors and orchestras 8-9 times in a day? Not to mention, do you really expect any audience could survive a 14-hour stretch?

(I went through a 7-hour marathon of four Shakespeare history plays a few months ago. They were all cut from their full 3-hour length, but even so, it was as much as I can could manage on one day.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on January 30, 2016, 12:52:43 PM
I am not disputing that this may not be an ideal way to experience a Bruckner cycle. But a visiting conductor and orchestra can hardly spread it over several months. It could also be argued that it would not get any cheaper for visitors when spread over months but doing it in 10 days gives Brucknerians from further away a chance to take a vacation, travel to NYC and go for the full Bruckner experience...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 30, 2016, 01:29:30 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 30, 2016, 12:52:43 PM
I am not disputing that this may not be an ideal way to experience a Bruckner cycle. But a visiting conductor and orchestra can hardly spread it over several months. It could also be argued that it would not get any cheaper for visitors when spread over months but doing it in 10 days gives Brucknerians from further away a chance to take a vacation, travel to NYC and go for the full Bruckner experience...

Then use multiple conductors and multiple orchestras. And have you checked out the rate for NYC hotels lately?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on January 30, 2016, 01:53:34 PM
So are people only staying on business in NYC? I'd guess there are SOME people who can afford to go there as tourists, though. It's been almost 20 years that I've been there and I stayed in a Youth Hostel but as I recall there were plenty of tourists around and not all were staying in Youth Hostels. Of course, concerts and hotels in NYC are comparably expensive! But with a cycle spread over months it is obviously far less feasible for a non-local Brucknerian to attend because he would have far more travel expenses.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 30, 2016, 04:16:27 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 30, 2016, 01:53:34 PM
So are people only staying on business in NYC? I'd guess there are SOME people who can afford to go there as tourists, though. It's been almost 20 years that I've been there and I stayed in a Youth Hostel but as I recall there were plenty of tourists around and not all were staying in Youth Hostels. Of course, concerts and hotels in NYC are comparably expensive! But with a cycle spread over months it is obviously far less feasible for a non-local Brucknerian to attend because he would have far more travel expenses.

Not worth quarreling over. Those who want to come, will come.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on February 02, 2016, 07:10:49 AM
Quote from: amw on January 30, 2016, 12:20:53 PM
The other way would be a one-day marathon of all nine. Start at 10AM, finish around midnight. Presumably with a relay of orchestras/conductors. >.>
I think Daverz has done this. There is a group of folks in California who get together once a year and spend all day in somebody's house, listening to rare/obscure recordings of all 11 Bruckner symphonies, with food and beer.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on February 02, 2016, 07:20:46 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 02, 2016, 07:10:49 AM
I think Daverz has done this. There is a group of folks in California who get together once a year and spend all day in somebody's house, listening to rare/obscure recordings of all 11 Bruckner symphonies, with food and beer.

Yes, the "Brucknerthon"! Several friends have been, and I hope to get out there and experience it myself, some day. I've seen a few of the lists of recordings scheduled in the past, and there have been some fascinating ones (e.g., rare airchecks).

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 02, 2016, 07:22:47 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 02, 2016, 07:10:49 AM
I think Daverz has done this. There is a group of folks in California who get together once a year and spend all day in somebody's house, listening to rare/obscure recordings of all 11 Bruckner symphonies, with food and beer.

The West Coast Brucknerthon.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on February 02, 2016, 07:24:01 AM
2015 Brucknerthon playlist (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.classical.recordings/j9zb5emTNc8) with this intriguing P.S.: "Be sure to brush up on your Bruckner trivia before the event, as the winner of the annual Bruckner quiz will walk away with a special prize. "
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 02, 2016, 07:26:18 AM
Quote from: Brewski on February 02, 2016, 07:20:46 AM
Yes, the "Brucknerthon"! Several friends have been, and I hope to get out there and experience it myself, some day. I've seen a few of the lists of recordings scheduled in the past, and there have been some fascinating ones (e.g., rare airchecks).

--Bruce

According to Berky's site, there will be one on the east coast this year.

http://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/features/westcoastbrucknert/

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on February 02, 2016, 07:28:35 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 02, 2016, 07:26:18 AM
According to Berky's site, there will be one on the east coast this year.

http://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/features/westcoastbrucknert/

Sarge

Thank you! Didn't know about this, and will investigate.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 02, 2016, 07:56:44 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 02, 2016, 07:26:18 AM
According to Berky's site, there will be one on the east coast this year.

http://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/features/westcoastbrucknert/

Sarge

But there have already been several on the East Coast! We have missed out.

http://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/features/the2014eastcoastbr/pastbrucknertatonp/
http://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/features/the2014eastcoastbr/
http://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/features/the2014eastcoastbr/brucknerathonliste/

For 2014: "Music begins at 8AM and concludes at 10:45PM One hour for lunch and dinner."

But I submit that this statement is deceptive! One clicks the link and finds 55 minutes each for lunch and dinner. And one is given variously 6, 3, 5, 2, 4, 7, and 8-minute breaks between symphonies. Talk about being over-scheduled.

Well, if it's not the first then I will not show up. I'm waiting for Todd to host a Beethoven Pianosonatathon, where each sonata - possibly each sonata movement - is performed by a different pianist. I volunteer to play the first movement from op. 49/1 live.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 02, 2016, 08:06:51 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 02, 2016, 07:56:44 AM
But there have already been several on the East Coast! We have missed out.

Yep. The page I found was really old apparently. Confusing though because the links at the side are for recent newsletters.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on February 02, 2016, 08:19:57 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 02, 2016, 07:56:44 AM
Well, if it's not the first then I will not show up. I'm waiting for Todd to host a Beethoven Pianosonatathon, where each sonata - possibly each sonata movement - is performed by a different pianist. I volunteer to play the first movement from op. 49/1 live.
No joking here: I would definitely fly to Portland attend this.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 02, 2016, 08:31:09 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 02, 2016, 08:19:57 AM
No joking here: I would definitely fly to Portland attend this.

In that case I volunteer to play the fugue from the Hammerklavier. Now you'll be sorry.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on February 02, 2016, 08:46:39 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/JCpnk5OuzUE
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Pat B on February 02, 2016, 08:51:23 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 02, 2016, 07:56:44 AM
Well, if it's not the first then I will not show up. I'm waiting for Todd to host a Beethoven Pianosonatathon, where each sonata - possibly each sonata movement - is performed by a different pianist. I volunteer to play the first movement from op. 49/1 live.

If Todd is hosting, it is liable to be a Beethoven Piano Sonata Cyclathon.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 02, 2016, 09:22:00 AM
Quote from: Pat B on February 02, 2016, 08:51:23 AM
If Todd is hosting, it is liable to be a Beethoven Piano Sonata Cyclathon.

Allowing one day for both numbers from op. 49, that could be a month-long affair for all those months with 31.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on February 08, 2016, 01:03:57 PM
Guys, I just want to add to this latest discussion on Barenboim's upcoming Carnegie cycle two things:

1. Barenboim live, doing repertoire that he loves dearly is in a different category entirely than his recorded output. If all you know are his recordings, don't be dissuaded. There is a completely different electricity to his live performances. And Bruckner's symphonies and Mozart's piano concertos are his 'babies'. He loves these works dearly and it shows. Some of my finest concertgoing moments involved basically any time I had the pleasure of hearing Barenboim conduct a Mozart piano concerto from the keyboard, as well as the mini-Bruckner cycle (Nos. 4, 7 and 9) he did with the CSO in Berlin on tour circa 2003.

2. Barenboim doing a full cycle is almost becoming a tagline for a recurring joke. But there is a special atmosphere at these things. I went to his complete Beethoven cycle (symphonies and piano concertos) at Carnegie, also with Staatskapelle Berlin, in the 2000/2001 season. There was a special sort of connection that developed between the audience and the orchestra over the course of the cycle. Many attendees went to the whole cycle or at least several concerts from what I could tell.

I'm gonna have to come to NY for some of these. Not sure how that will work out yet.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 08, 2016, 01:16:09 PM
Quote from: MishaK on February 08, 2016, 01:03:57 PM
Guys, I just want to add to this latest discussion on Barenboim's upcoming Carnegie cycle two things:

1. Barenboim live, doing repertoire that he loves dearly is in a different category entirely than his recorded output. If all you know are his recordings, don't be dissuaded. There is a completely different electricity to his live performances. And Bruckner's symphonies and Mozart's piano concertos are his 'babies'. He loves these works dearly and it shows. Some of my finest concertgoing moments involved basically any time I had the pleasure of hearing Barenboim conduct a Mozart piano concerto from the keyboard, as well as the mini-Bruckner cycle (Nos. 4, 7 and 9) he did with the CSO in Berlin on tour circa 2003.

2. Barenboim doing a full cycle is almost becoming a tagline for a recurring joke. But there is a special atmosphere at these things. I went to his complete Beethoven cycle (symphonies and piano concertos) at Carnegie, also with Staatskapelle Berlin, in the 2000/2001 season. There was a special sort of connection that developed between the audience and the orchestra over the course of the cycle. Many attendees went to the whole cycle or at least several concerts from what I could tell.

I'm gonna have to come to NY for some of these. Not sure how that will work out yet.

Thank you for this, MishaK. I definitely want to hear a few of these. But probably not all, even though NY is just a 90-minute train ride for me. But given the likely expense, and the fact that I don't find all the symphonies of equal interest, I don't plan to come to all. With all the interest, however, maybe some of us can meet face-to-face if so desired!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 15, 2016, 02:00:15 PM
Picking up the Barenboim-Brucknerthon at Carnegie again, single tickets for non-subscribers are on sale starting August 29. As the website is a bit tedious to navigate, here's the full schedule (all performances except the Sunday are at 8PM):

Th Jan 19: K595, B1
F Jan 20: K466, B2
Sa Jan 21: K491, B3
M Jan 23: K537, B4
Tu Jan 24: K297b, B5
W Jan 25: K482, B6
F Jan 27: K364, B7
Sa Jan 28: B8 only
Su Jan 29 mat: K488, B9

At the date, I could go in and pick up tickets for those interested, to save service charges.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: knight66 on June 11, 2016, 11:45:12 PM
The 92 year old conductor Stanislaw Skrowaczewski has committed to disc a newly released Bruckner 5 with the LPO on their own label. It must be 30 years since I stood in choir in front of him, a birdlike man, very alert and clear to what he wanted. He has a full cycle of Bruckner symphonies on another label, but I encountered this on Spotify almost by accident. I stuck with it, so engaged, that I have ordered the CD.

Reading reviews of the concert it seems the hall was half empty, which may account for the bloom on the sound, not dry at all. He conducted from memory and stood through the full 80 minutes. The orchestra sounds superb. The performance is on one mid-price disc.

The Novak edition is used with a cut opened out and, I read, one or two slight emendations by the conductor. This is not a slowly paced performance as is clear from its fitting onto a single disc, but none of it sounds at all rushed or undercharacterised. This was the first Bruckner I ever encountered and it remains my favourite among the symphonies. This performance is distinctive and feels right in terms of the way the relationships of tempi work. The Adagio is faster than usual I think, but it feels exactly right in the contest of the performance.

I am not making any allowances for the age of the conductor, none are needed. He can't produce many more of these performances that have been marinaded for decades and decades. I find this slightly craggy 5th to be distinctive and very worthwhile. I may look for the 3rd now by the same artists, though it has never been a great favourite for me, but perhaps this conductor can change my mind.

Mike
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on June 12, 2016, 12:18:12 AM
The complete cycle from the 1990s with the Saarbrücken Radio Orchestra is on Arte Nova and Oehms; there are also several single recordings of the better known symphonies with American orchestras on other (sometimes audiophile) labels. But the Saarbrücken discs can usually be found separately, they are fairly cheap as well.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ritter on June 12, 2016, 12:56:15 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 12, 2016, 12:18:12 AM
The complete cycle from the 1990s with the Saarbrücken Radio Orchestra is on Arte Nova and Oehms; there are also several single recordings of the better known symphonies with American orchestras on other (sometimes audiophile) labels. But the Saarbrücken discs can usually be found separately, they are fairly cheap as well.
They can also be found in this 28 CD set, which is very good value for money (on some European Amazon sites):

[asin]B00EXS4OVQ[/asin]
I saw Skrowaczewski conduct Bruckner's Fourth with the Orquesta Sinfónica de Galicia in Northwest Spain a couple of years ago, and is was a memorable performance; the phrasing, the dynamics...really top-notch.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 19, 2016, 10:06:52 AM
I really have been enjoying HvK's set tremendously:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51310wTQrHL._SX425_.jpg)

For me, this is a landmark set. Karajan understands Bruckner's idiom incredibly well, but I'm in the HvK camp when it comes to Bruckner anyway as I never have liked Jochum's knee-jerk, stop-and-go performances. Besides Karajan, I love Wand, Giulini, and Skrowaczewski. What does everyone think of Simone Young's cycle? I own a few of her recordings but haven't given them much of a listen.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on June 19, 2016, 07:26:24 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 19, 2016, 10:06:52 AM
I really have been enjoying HvK's set tremendously:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51310wTQrHL._SX425_.jpg)

For me, this is a landmark set. Karajan understands Bruckner's idiom incredibly well, but I'm in the HvK camp when it comes to Bruckner anyway as I never have liked Jochum's knee-jerk, stop-and-go performances. Besides Karajan, I love Wand, Giulini, and Skrowaczewski. What does everyone think of Simone Young's cycle? I own a few of her recordings but haven't given them much of a listen.

That's about the only set which has made Symphonies 1-3 work for me...although 4 and later, while good, are not clearly superior to the rest.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 19, 2016, 07:57:55 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 19, 2016, 07:26:24 PM
That's about the only set which has made Symphonies 1-3 work for me...although 4 and later, while good, are not clearly superior to the rest.

I haven't finished listening to this set, but both the 5th and 7th were magnificent. The broad sweep and the uncanny ear HvK has in shaping the musical lines is truly one-of-a-kind. He may be my favorite Brucknerian. Special note: I have never been a Jochum fan. I also don't like the super-slow Celibidache performances, which seem to be highly praised amongst listeners. Karajan also handles the transitions from loud/soft better than anyone I've heard. Only Wand can touch him in regards to these musical transitions. Anyway, this is ultimately what I'm looking for in my Bruckner performances. Also, I get tired of the ongoing 'which edition of this or that symphony is the best' and usually when someone engages me in such a conversation, I tell them I'm not interested in discussing that aspect of his music. Bruckner was notorious for editing his music and tinkering around with what to cut and what not to cut from the music. Whatever the end result is, I'm happy to hear it, because it's Bruckner and I can think of no other reason but this alone.

Sorry, I went on a bit of a rant didn't I? I'm tired, so please excuse my insanity. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2016, 11:45:11 AM
These are the kinds of articles that make me want not want to read another musical article again, especially when it comes to the British press:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/apr/01/sex-death-dissonance-anton-bruckner-concertgebouw-orchestra (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/apr/01/sex-death-dissonance-anton-bruckner-concertgebouw-orchestra)

Absolutely cheap writing which seems to try nothing more than to get a rise out of people. Whatever the composer did in his personal life has no bearing on the music the composer wrote, because all good music IMHO transcends time and place. Bruckner's music appears to do this for me anyway.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on June 20, 2016, 01:04:25 PM
Received this today. :)
[asin]B008YKRRH2[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2016, 01:08:57 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 20, 2016, 01:04:25 PM
Received this today. :)
[asin]B008YKRRH2[/asin]

It's been ages since I've revisited Klemperer's Bruckner, but I'm going to have a difficult time getting HvK's performances out of my head. Anyway, that's neither here nor there, enjoy the set, Jeffrey! Let me know what you think of Klemperer's 8th. For whatever reason, the 8th used to give me some problems, but I just finished HvK's performance of it and am completely blown away. So far from this HvK set, I've listened to the 5th, 7th, and 8th. Now onto the 6th, which must be the trickiest Bruckner symphony to pull off well. Everything sounds good so far.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on June 20, 2016, 01:55:40 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2016, 01:08:57 PM
It's been ages since I've revisited Klemperer's Bruckner, but I'm going to have a difficult time getting HvK's performances out of my head. Anyway, that's neither here nor there, enjoy the set, Jeffrey! Let me know what you think of Klemperer's 8th. For whatever reason, the 8th used to give me some problems, but I just finished HvK's performance of it and am completely blown away. So far from this HvK set, I've listened to the 5th, 7th, and 8th. Now onto the 6th, which must be the trickiest Bruckner symphony to pull off well. Everything sounds good so far.
Thanks John.
I had the LP of Nos 4 and 6 which were highly rated and the box was quite cheap so I look forward to hearing what old Otto makes of the later symphonies.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 20, 2016, 02:11:06 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2016, 01:08:57 PM
It's been ages since I've revisited Klemperer's Bruckner, but I'm going to have a difficult time getting HvK's performances out of my head. Anyway, that's neither here nor there, enjoy the set, Jeffrey! Let me know what you think of Klemperer's 8th. For whatever reason, the 8th used to give me some problems, but I just finished HvK's performance of it and am completely blown away. So far from this HvK set, I've listened to the 5th, 7th, and 8th. Now onto the 6th, which must be the trickiest Bruckner symphony to pull off well. Everything sounds good so far.
The Vienna 8th and 7th are 2 of HVK's greatest recordings.

In general I do not like his complete set (the one you linked earlier) as Wand,  Jochum (either set), and Klemperer bring out more rough edges in the music rather than the soupy, beautiful in a museum showpiece sort of way that HVK's Berlin set mostly is. If you like to lavish in the playing of the BPO then I can see how you can dig this set.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2016, 02:28:08 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 20, 2016, 02:11:06 PM
The Vienna 8th and 7th are 2 of HVK's greatest recordings.

In general I do not like his complete set (the one you linked earlier) as Wand,  Jochum (either set), and Klemperer bring out more rough edges in the music rather than the soupy, beautiful in a museum showpiece sort of way that HVK's Berlin set mostly is. If you like to lavish in the playing of the BPO then I can see how you can dig this set.

I detest Jochum's rough-and-ready, stop-and-go performances. Wand is a favorite, but I think he even pales next to HvK regardless of how good he actually is. There's plenty of edginess in HvK's 70s cycle, but I like a conductor who can deliver smooth transitions and Jochum never has been able to do this for me. I really haven't heard too many Bruckner conductors I like outside of HvK, Wand, and Giulini. Kubelik is pretty good. Haitink is also quite good. That's about it for me.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 20, 2016, 03:53:45 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2016, 11:45:11 AM
These are the kinds of articles that make me want not want to read another musical article again, especially when it comes to the British press:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/apr/01/sex-death-dissonance-anton-bruckner-concertgebouw-orchestra (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/apr/01/sex-death-dissonance-anton-bruckner-concertgebouw-orchestra)

Absolutely cheap writing which seems to try nothing more than to get a rise out of people. Whatever the composer did in his personal life has no bearing on the music the composer wrote, because all good music IMHO transcends time and place. Bruckner's music appears to do this for me anyway.

Thanks for the link!

"Maniac" to describe Bruckner ? ? ?  Cheap writing indeed!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 20, 2016, 05:28:50 PM
Quote from: Cato on June 20, 2016, 03:53:45 PM
Thanks for the link!

"Maniac" to describe Bruckner ? ? ?  Cheap writing indeed!
Well there is not a shred of scholarship in the entire article. Whatever eccentricities the author finds in Bruckner is filtered through the eyes of the 21st century. For example in Bruckner's time it was quite normal for men to marry and have affairs with girls young enough to be their granddaughters, and pictures of relatives in their death-beds was quite normal (just watch the movie "The Others" (yes the one with the superhot Nicole Kidman)). All you have to do is read the line "Professor Butts told me..." and get to the conclusion that the author is really not interesting in doing any kind of research.

Then again the Guardian is not a real magazine.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2016, 05:36:21 PM
Quote from: Cato on June 20, 2016, 03:53:45 PM
Thanks for the link!

"Maniac" to describe Bruckner ? ? ?  Cheap writing indeed!

You're welcome, Cato. Yes, maniac is a low blow indeed. The article certainly didn't do the composer any favors.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2016, 07:14:20 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 20, 2016, 05:28:50 PM
Well there is not a shred of scholarship in the entire article. Whatever eccentricities the author finds in Bruckner is filtered through the eyes of the 21st century. For example in Bruckner's time it was quite normal for men to marry and have affairs with girls young enough to be their granddaughters, and pictures of relatives in their death-beds was quite normal (just watch the movie "The Others" (yes the one with the superhot Nicole Kidman)). All you have to do is read the line "Professor Butts told me..." and get to the conclusion that the author is really not interesting in doing any kind of research.

Then again the Guardian is not a real magazine.

What I gathered from the article as well. Bruckner liked younger women because he thought they represented purity (i. e. virginity). He was an incredibly pious man with a humble background. It's nothing short of astonishing that this music poured out of him. I also loved the fact that even after the backlash he received from critics, he continued to perfect his craft in the face of almost total neglect. Nobody sounds like him and no other composer ever will.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2016, 08:32:45 PM
Here's a question for everyone: what do you think Bruckner's intent was in his music? You could definitely call this music absolute music in the sense that there's no kind of program with any of the works with only the subtitle of Romantic given to Symphony No. 4 and that subtitle alone hardly tells us anything. What do you guys think the music is expressing?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 20, 2016, 09:14:45 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 20, 2016, 01:04:25 PM
Received this today. :)
[asin]B008YKRRH2[/asin]

Do you own HvK's cycle, Jeffrey? If you don't, then don't hesitate! Also, if you don't own it, try and get the older set (the one with the cover I've been posting about on the 'Listening' thread) as it's a deluxe type of packaging with an attractive booklet.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on June 20, 2016, 09:24:55 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2016, 08:32:45 PM
Here's a question for everyone: what do you think Bruckner's intent was in his music? You could definitely call this music absolute music in the sense that there's no kind of program with any of the works with only the subtitle of Romantic given to Symphony No. 4 and that subtitle alone hardly tells us anything. What do you guys think the music is expressing?
He was deeply religious and I think that this is probably central to his music. An obvious point but true I think. Want the Ninth Symphony dedicated to God?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on June 20, 2016, 09:29:08 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2016, 09:14:45 PM
Do you own HvK's cycle, Jeffrey? If you don't, then don't hesitate! Also, if you don't own it, try and get the older set (the one with the cover I've been posting about on the 'Listening' thread) as it's a deluxe type of packaging with an attractive booklet.
Just the Ninth Symphony John. I think it's the older version on DGG. I have boxes (not of all the symphonies in some cases) by Knappertsbush, Celibidache and the complete symphs with Jochum on DGG. My favourite No.8 is Horenstein ( I was at the concert as a boy). I think that Wand is perhaps the greatest Bruckner conductor of all. I was at his final concert in London - Bruckner Symphony 9. Best I have heard although I wouldn't be without Furtwangler's doom-laden 1944 recording from a bombed out Berlin.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on June 20, 2016, 11:03:00 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2016, 08:32:45 PM
Here's a question for everyone: what do you think Bruckner's intent was in his music? You could definitely call this music absolute music in the sense that there's no kind of program with any of the works with only the subtitle of Romantic given to Symphony No. 4 and that subtitle alone hardly tells us anything. What do you guys think the music is expressing?

Interestingly, there are some programmatic titles or short remarks for the 4th symphony. The older scherzo is for some reason known as "Volksfest" (popular festival), the later one as Jagd/hunt. A subsidiary theme in the first movement is associated with a certain bird call.
The 2nd movement of the 7th is obviously funeral music and was later associated with Wagner's death. Bruckner called the end of the first movement of the 8th "Totenuhr" (death clock), the scherzo of that work has been called "der deutsche Michel" (German Mike, this is a 19th cent. national stereotype, like "Tom" for Brits) and parts of the finale are supposed to be inspired by a meeting of the emperors of Germany, Austria and Russia (Dreikaisertreffen). All this seems fairly strange, but there are authentic remarks from Bruckner giving these associations (up to Russian Cossacks parading at the beginning of the 8th finale). So at least the 8th seems to have some nationalist undertones.

Of course this is far from a program à la Strauss but it seems to show that some of the symphonies might not be as "absolute" as one would expect. Still, I am not sure what could be gained from such scattered remarks for understanding the music.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 21, 2016, 05:35:30 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 20, 2016, 09:29:08 PM
Just the Ninth Symphony John. I think it's the older version on DGG. I have boxes (not of all the symphonies in some cases) by Knappertsbush, Celibidache and the complete symphs with Jochum on DGG. My favourite No.8 is Horenstein ( I was at the concert as a boy). I think that Wand is perhaps the greatest Bruckner conductor of all. I was at his final concert in London - Bruckner Symphony 9. Best I have heard although I wouldn't be without Furtwangler's doom-laden 1944 recording from a bombed out Berlin.

That HvK 9th is fantastic. Wand is very good and is similar to HvK in the regards to allowing the music to breathe and keep from stopping and starting. The flow of the musical line in Bruckner is absolutely essential and Wand certainly understands this BUT he's not as dramatic as HvK and the Berliners, for my money, were in the better shape during their cycle with HvK. This is just me being nitpicky, though, but I also admire Giulini, Bohm, Haitink, and Skrowaczewski as well. I can't say I'm fond of Celibidache. I'll have to check out Horenstein's 8th.

Quote from: Jo498 on June 20, 2016, 11:03:00 PM
Interestingly, there are some programmatic titles or short remarks for the 4th symphony. The older scherzo is for some reason known as "Volksfest" (popular festival), the later one as Jagd/hunt. A subsidiary theme in the first movement is associated with a certain bird call.
The 2nd movement of the 7th is obviously funeral music and was later associated with Wagner's death. Bruckner called the end of the first movement of the 8th "Totenuhr" (death clock), the scherzo of that work has been called "der deutsche Michel" (German Mike, this is a 19th cent. national stereotype, like "Tom" for Brits) and parts of the finale are supposed to be inspired by a meeting of the emperors of Germany, Austria and Russia (Dreikaisertreffen). All this seems fairly strange, but there are authentic remarks from Bruckner giving these associations (up to Russian Cossacks parading at the beginning of the 8th finale). So at least the 8th seems to have some nationalist undertones.

Of course this is far from a program à la Strauss but it seems to show that some of the symphonies might not be as "absolute" as one would expect. Still, I am not sure what could be gained from such scattered remarks for understanding the music.

Absolutely fascinating, Jo498. I didn't know Bruckner's 8th had those kinds of 'programs' within it. I need to research that symphony a bit more. Perhaps you could tell me what you hear in his music and what you feel the music expresses to you?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on June 21, 2016, 05:38:34 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 21, 2016, 05:35:30 AM
That HvK 9th is fantastic. Wand is very good and is similar to HvK in the regards to allowing the music to breathe and keep from stopping and starting. The flow of the musical line in Bruckner is absolutely essential and Wand certainly understands this BUT he's not as dramatic as HvK and the Berliners, for my money, were in the better shape during their cycle with HvK. This is just me being nitpicky, though, but I also admire Giulini, Bohm, Haitink, and Skrowaczewski as well. I can't say I'm fond of Celibidache. I'll have to check out Horenstein's 8th.

Absolutely fascinating, Jo498. I didn't know Bruckner's 8th had those kinds of 'programs' within it. I need to research that symphony a bit more. Perhaps you could tell me what you hear in his music and what you feel the music expresses to you?
Yes, the Giulini No.9 on DGG is special.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 21, 2016, 05:45:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 21, 2016, 05:38:34 AM
Yes, the Giulini No.9 on DGG is special.

It certainly is in a class of its' own. There's no denying that. Perhaps the best 9th I've ever heard.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ritter on June 21, 2016, 05:50:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 21, 2016, 05:35:30 AM
I can't say I'm fond of Celibidache.
I bit of a digression on my side, but I was listening to Celibidache conducting Wagner's Siegfried-Idyll this morning (as reported in the WAYLTN (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg978586.html#msg978586) thread) and was downright horrified  :o! And what I've heard of his Bruckner (including a documentary where he is at St. Florian) was not to my liking either. He's the polar opposite of the type of music-making I enjoy and admire.

As for Böhm, I think his DG Eighth is very accomplished; the one with the BRSO on Audite significanly less so (I notice some ensemble problems in the scherzo--surprising, given the high quality of that ensemble  ::) ).

And yes, the Giulini Ninth is a very special recording!

Cheers,


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 21, 2016, 05:57:51 AM
Quote from: ritter on June 21, 2016, 05:50:17 AM
I bit of a digression on my side, but I was listening to Celibidache conducting Wagner's Siegfried-Idyll this morning (as reported in the WAYLTN (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg978586.html#msg978586) thread) and was downright horrified  :o! And what I've heard of his Bruckner (including a documentary where he is at St. Florian) was not to my liking either. He's the polar opposite of the type of music-making I enjoy and admire.

As for Böhm, I think his DG Eighth is very accomplished; the one with the BRSO significanly on Audite less so (I notice some ensemble problems in the scherzo--surprising, given the high quality of that ensemble  ::) ).

And yes, the Giulini Ninth is a very special recording!

Cheers,

Yeah, Celibidache seems to be admired by many listeners, but, like you said, it's music-making that I'm not interested in. Bruckner's music is already purposely laid out that it's going to be a long and slow-burn, but I certainly don't want to hear a conductor who slows it down even more unless it's what HvK did with the Adagio in the 5th. This I will allow as HvK doesn't really do this kind of thing very often in Bruckner, he must have wanted us to hear how this particular movement unfolded. Anyway, yes, Bohm's 8th is excellent as is his 4th on that Decca Legends series. Giulini also conducts a great 8th (also on DG).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 21, 2016, 06:08:07 AM
Cross-posted from the 'New Releases' thread -

Quote from: Mirror Image on June 21, 2016, 06:06:54 AM
Coming in July:

[asin]B01FR2N5TI[/asin]

Can't say I know this cycle at all. I barely know Simone Young's Hamburg cycle (surprised this hasn't been boxed up). Any comments on Venzago's Bruckner? I remember reading that Hurwitz didn't think much of it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 21, 2016, 06:18:26 AM
Well, taking Brian's post in the 'New Releases' thread into consideration, I think I'll stay clear of Venzago's Bruckner. Sounds unappealing. I don't like the idea of a small-ish orchestra performing Bruckner. I like my Bruckner resplendent, brassy, apocalyptic, disturbing, and painted with massive brushstrokes.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on June 21, 2016, 06:59:20 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 21, 2016, 05:35:30 AM
Absolutely fascinating, Jo498. I didn't know Bruckner's 8th had those kinds of 'programs' within it. I need to research that symphony a bit more. Perhaps you could tell me what you hear in his music and what you feel the music expresses to you?
As I am unusually wary of program music I don't really know myself how to understand/interpret such remarks. I do not think it is a fully-fledged program but it also seems less "absolute" than I thought. And I mainly have the info from one book although this seems reliable and was written by a non-partisan music professor. But unless you read German I cannot point you to another source. I was fairly surprised myself when I read this book a few years ago.

But I have come to the conclusion that the "absolute" vs. "program" music was and is often presented in a skewed fashion that does not really reflect what most composers between Beethoven and Mahler when those issues were relevant thought. We see this in pieces like Mendelssohn's "Hebrides" or Scottish symphony that are not really program music but not completely "abstract" either because they obviously want to evoke certain moods, landscapes etc.

I am not sure. But I have the suspicion that Bruckner felt that his way of musical thinking was so different from both the Liszt/Wagner ("program") faction and the Hanslick/Brahms absolute faction that he was led to such remarks because the former faction supported him. There are some elements that might be fairly uncontroversial: there is obviously music evoking nature, like the "bird calls", the horn signals etc. There are chorales and other elements close to church music (sometimes brief quotations from Bruckner's own church music). There are some Wagnerian gestures. There is some Austrian dance music (often underplayed, it's not only there in the scherzo movements but also in some subsidiary themes elsewhere)

[asin]349960891X[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 21, 2016, 07:28:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 20, 2016, 09:29:08 PM
Just the Ninth Symphony John. I think it's the older version on DGG. I have boxes (not of all the symphonies in some cases) by Knappertsbush, Celibidache and the complete symphs with Jochum on DGG. My favourite No.8 is Horenstein ( I was at the concert as a boy). I think that Wand is perhaps the greatest Bruckner conductor of all. I was at his final concert in London - Bruckner Symphony 9. Best I have heard although I wouldn't be without Furtwangler's doom-laden 1944 recording from a bombed out Berlin.
As some have mentioned previously regardless of how many 9ths you have the one you must hear is the 1988 Luebeck 9th with Wand's very own NDR group. Just one of those rare occasions where everything sort of just exists on another plane that is hard to describe. There is a stillness and luminescence in the reading where the silence between notes mean as much as the actual notes themselves. The audience is mouse quiet, perhaps awed into reticence by Wand's concentration. Just a surreal performance. It is available at a very reasonable price.

Haven't heard the Furtwangler recording as most of the time extra musical "juice" is a lot of hot air (and I am NOT saying this one is). Like the so-called "Nazi" Beethoven 9th where Hitler and his henchmen might or might not have been in the audience. Or Bruno Walter's 1938 Mahler 9th where the only added musical tension is the feeling that conductor and orchestra couldn't wait to get the heck out of there.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81tFYIX3fGL._SX425_.jpg)

Quote from: Jo498 on June 20, 2016, 11:03:00 PM
Interestingly, there are some programmatic titles or short remarks for the 4th symphony. The older scherzo is for some reason known as "Volksfest" (popular festival), the later one as Jagd/hunt. A subsidiary theme in the first movement is associated with a certain bird call.
The 2nd movement of the 7th is obviously funeral music and was later associated with Wagner's death. Bruckner called the end of the first movement of the 8th "Totenuhr" (death clock), the scherzo of that work has been called "der deutsche Michel" (German Mike, this is a 19th cent. national stereotype, like "Tom" for Brits) and parts of the finale are supposed to be inspired by a meeting of the emperors of Germany, Austria and Russia (Dreikaisertreffen). All this seems fairly strange, but there are authentic remarks from Bruckner giving these associations (up to Russian Cossacks parading at the beginning of the 8th finale). So at least the 8th seems to have some nationalist undertones.

Of course this is far from a program à la Strauss but it seems to show that some of the symphonies might not be as "absolute" as one would expect. Still, I am not sure what could be gained from such scattered remarks for understanding the music.
Interestingly these are the nicknames of the Bruckner symphonies given in both the Skrowazewski and Barenboim sets. I am not sure how many of them actually stuck.

Symphony No. 1 in C minor ("The Saucy Maid"), WAB 101 (various versions)

Symphony No. 2 in C minor ("Symphony of Pauses"), WAB 102

Symphony No. 3 in D minor ("Wagner"), WAB 103

Symphony No. 4 in E flat ("Romantic"), WAB 104

Symphony No. 5 in B flat ("Tragic"; "Church of Faith"; "Pizzicato"), WAB 105

Symphony No. 6 in A major ("Philosophic"), WAB 106


Symphony No. 7 in E major ("Lyric"), WAB 107

Symphony No. 8 in C minor ("Apocalyptic"; "The German Michel"), WAB 108


Symphony No. 9 in D minor ("Unfinished"), WAB 109
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 21, 2016, 07:41:17 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 21, 2016, 06:59:20 AM
As I am unusually wary of program music I don't really know myself how to understand/interpret such remarks. I do not think it is a fully-fledged program but it also seems less "absolute" than I thought. And I mainly have the info from one book although this seems reliable and was written by a non-partisan music professor. But unless you read German I cannot point you to another source. I was fairly surprised myself when I read this book a few years ago.

But I have come to the conclusion that the "absolute" vs. "program" music was and is often presented in a skewed fashion that does not really reflect what most composers between Beethoven and Mahler when those issues were relevant thought. We see this in pieces like Mendelssohn's "Hebrides" or Scottish symphony that are not really program music but not completely "abstract" either because they obviously want to evoke certain moods, landscapes etc.

I am not sure. But I have the suspicion that Bruckner felt that his way of musical thinking was so different from both the Liszt/Wagner ("program") faction and the Hanslick/Brahms absolute faction that he was led to such remarks because the former faction supported him. There are some elements that might be fairly uncontroversial: there is obviously music evoking nature, like the "bird calls", the horn signals etc. There are chorales and other elements close to church music (sometimes brief quotations from Bruckner's own church music). There are some Wagnerian gestures. There is some Austrian dance music (often underplayed, it's not only there in the scherzo movements but also in some subsidiary themes elsewhere)

[asin]349960891X[/asin]

Thanks for your feedback, Wagnerite. I certainly understand what you're saying, but I think, as so often with music, that the music means something different to all of us. Allow a simpleton like me to explain what I hear (in rather condensed form): I hear a man that is on a spiritual journey. Each symphony brings him closer and closer to reaching the end, but even this end remained unresolved. The questions that jump out to me are: what does it all mean? What's the point of arrival when the destination is so far away? I also hear a man that is deeply in fear of what the future holds not only for himself, but for civilization as an entirety. Maybe I need to get out more? Maybe I'm completely bonkers? I wager all of the above. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Turner on June 21, 2016, 10:10:45 AM
Concerning Bruckner and programme content, his own remarks for the early versions of the 4th Symphony should of course be mentioned (they can be seen in the Wikipedia article on the symphony, for example). But they seem quite naive compared to today´s understanding of and mythology about the music´s sublime traits. They also suggest a livelier, more episodic and descriptive way of playing Bruckner than it is fund in some conductors: rather Abendroth´s than Karajan´s or the later Celibidache, for instance. I wouldn´t like to be without both ways of the interpretation, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._4_(Bruckner):
"In the first movement after a full night's sleep the day is announced by the horn, 2nd movement song, 3rd movement hunting trio, musical entertainment of the hunters in the wood.[2] There is a similar passage in a letter from the composer to Paul Heyse of 22 December 1890: "In the first movement of the "Romantic" Fourth Symphony the intention is to depict the horn that proclaims the day from the town hall! Then life goes on; in the Gesangsperiode [the second subject] the theme is the song of the great tit [a bird] Zizipe. 2nd movement: song, prayer, serenade. 3rd: hunt and in the Trio how a barrel-organ plays during the midday meal in the forest.[2]

The autograph of the Scherzo and Finale of the 1878 version of the symphony contains markings such as Jagdthema (hunting theme), Tanzweise während der Mahlzeit auf der Jagd (dance tune during the lunch break while hunting) and Volksfest (people's festival).[2] In addition to these clues that come directly from Bruckner, the musicologist Theodor Helm communicated a more detailed account reported via the composer's associate Bernhard Deubler: "Mediaeval city -- Daybreak -- Morning calls sound from the city towers -- the gates open -- On proud horses the knights burst out into the open, the magic of nature envelops them -- forest murmurs -- bird song -- and so the Romantic picture develops further...[2]

There does not seem to be any clear hint of a program for the third version (1880) of the symphony's finale.[2]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 21, 2016, 12:09:22 PM
Bruckner tried mightily and to little avail to be recognized as a serious composer. From the beginning his music was  considered weird and unpractical, then met with openly derisive skepticism. His attempts at 'fitting in the crowd' consisted of blatant flattery vis-à-vis the musical establishment and not very convincing attempts to tailor a niebelungish program to his fourth symphony, the first to make something like a breakthrough in the musical public.

Throughout all this, he remained true to his musical self: he knew but one way to make music, and stuck with it regardless of the criticism, cynicism and ridicule it was met with. His innate lack of confidence led him to revisit, revise and alter his scores, mostly to the good. Some music lovers prefer his first thoughts (symphonies 2, 3, 4 and 8 ), but most concede that he 'mainstreamed' his music to great effect.

Regarding his composing style, it is now acknowledged that he was one of the few originals AND true geniuses in music. In that respect, one must take into consideration the fact that classical music did not evolve according to a straight line of originals and geniuses. On the contrary, the latter categories appear more as a kind of sore thumb when set against the likes of Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms and, yes, Wagner and Debussy.

Bruckner, like C.P.E. Bach, Nielsen and Ives is one of those originals and geniuses that owe little (very early in their career) to mainstream composers. Their musical worlds are balls, squares and triangles that (sometimes uncomfortably) inhabit a giant bubble, with the argument tossed to and fro with seeming incoherence. Phrases can be curt and quirky, or unendingly beatific.  It takes great openness of mind or an inborn innocence to 'fall' for Bruckner, head first. Most come to terms with his music through prolonged and intermittent exposure.

When it comes to interpretation, Bruckner can be sampled in many, many ways. Both the forceful, propulsive yet lyrical interpretations of Abendroth, Andreae, Böhm, Kubelik, Schuricht or the cosmically expansive vistas laid out in the late recordings of Celibidache, Asahina, Karajan can unravel his music in true, authentic interpretations. There are those conductors who have revisited the composer's world over many decades, finding new ways to resolve an impossible conundrum, starting fast, ending slow, or vice-versa: Jochum, Klemperer, Maazel, Haitink, Knappertsbusch, Wand. Some others have taken late to Bruckner but have made their mark in interpretations of rare import and coherence: Prêtre, Szell for example.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on June 21, 2016, 12:46:27 PM
While I don't doubt his originality, Bruckner owes a LOT to Beethoven and Schubert. His symphonic style is basically a fusion of elements from Beethoven's and Schubert's 9th (C major). Plus some Wagner and Catholic church music. In many ways Bruckner is as firmly rooted in tradition as Brahms.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 21, 2016, 12:58:43 PM
Certainly. The structures are inherited from Beethoven, the type of musical phrases from Schubert. It's the cells within the bones and muscles that are totally original. Had Beethoven or Schubert lived to 100, they would never have evolved in the direction of Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 21, 2016, 07:05:56 PM
Quote from: André on June 21, 2016, 12:09:22 PM
Bruckner tried mightily and to little avail to be recognized as a serious composer. From the beginning his music was  considered weird and unpractical, then met with openly derisive skepticism. His attempts at 'fitting in the crowd' consisted of blatant flattery vis-à-vis the musical establishment and not very convincing attempts to tailor a niebelungish program to his fourth symphony, the first to make something like a breakthrough in the musical public.

Throughout all this, he remained true to his musical self: he knew but one way to make music, and stuck with it regardless of the criticism, cynicism and ridicule it was met with. His innate lack of confidence led him to revisit, revise and alter his scores, mostly to the good. Some music lovers prefer his first thoughts (symphonies 2, 3, 4 and 8 ), but most concede that he 'mainstreamed' his music to great effect.

Regarding his composing style, it is now acknowledged that he was one of the few originals AND true geniuses in music. In that respect, one must take into consideration the fact that classical music did not evolve according to a straight line of originals and geniuses. On the contrary, the latter categories appear more as a kind of sore thumb when set against the likes of Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms and, yes, Wagner and Debussy.

Bruckner, like C.P.E. Bach, Nielsen and Ives is one of those originals and geniuses that owe little (very early in their career) to mainstream composers. Their musical worlds are balls, squares and triangles that (sometimes uncomfortably) inhabit a giant bubble, with the argument tossed to and fro with seeming incoherence. Phrases can be curt and quirky, or unendingly beatific.  It takes great openness of mind or an inborn innocence to 'fall' for Bruckner, head first. Most come to terms with his music through prolonged and intermittent exposure.

When it comes to interpretation, Bruckner can be sampled in many, many ways. Both the forceful, propulsive yet lyrical interpretations of Abendroth, Andreae, Böhm, Kubelik, Schuricht or the cosmically expansive vistas laid out in the late recordings of Celibidache, Asahina, Karajan can unravel his music in true, authentic interpretations. There are those conductors who have revisited the composer's world over many decades, finding new ways to resolve an impossible conundrum, starting fast, ending slow, or vice-versa: Jochum, Klemperer, Maazel, Haitink, Knappertsbusch, Wand. Some others have taken late to Bruckner but have made their mark in interpretations of rare import and coherence: Prêtre, Szell for example.

This post deserves a round of...

(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4ehyhoaRH1qdqyfo.gif)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 21, 2016, 11:18:30 PM
"Here's a question for everyone: what do you think Bruckner's intent was in his music? You could definitely call this music absolute music in the sense that there's no kind of program with any of the works with only the subtitle of Romantic given to Symphony No. 4 and that subtitle alone hardly tells us anything. What do you guys think the music is expressing?"

I think that Bruckner was a mystic, attuned to the energy of the universe (which he would have called "God"). This is why most of his symphonies begin with the famous string vibrato, which is an expression of the buzzing potential energy of the universe. His symphonies then explore the different expressions of this energy, the different tempi, ranging from energetic scherzi to slow movements that are very slow. But whatever the tempi he explores, they are counterpointed to the timeless tempo implied by the opening vibration. Bruckner when working on his symphonies may have had in mind certain programmes (as in the 4th) or certain programmes for parts of symphonies (as in the 8th) and he certainly referred to objective sounds like one of the calls of the Great Tit in the first movement of the 4th. And I think you can also say that different parts of his symphonies have different moods: calm and contented, mysterious, elated, even panic-stricken (parts of the Ninth). However, these are foreground to the cosmic background as it were.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 22, 2016, 04:17:30 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 21, 2016, 11:18:30 PM
"Here's a question for everyone: what do you think Bruckner's intent was in his music? You could definitely call this music absolute music in the sense that there's no kind of program with any of the works with only the subtitle of Romantic given to Symphony No. 4 and that subtitle alone hardly tells us anything. What do you guys think the music is expressing?"

I think that Bruckner was a mystic, attuned to the energy of the universe (which he would have called "God"). This is why most of his symphonies begin with the famous string vibrato, which is an expression of the buzzing potential energy of the universe. His symphonies then explore the different expressions of this energy, the different tempi, ranging from energetic scherzi to slow movements that are very slow. But whatever the tempi he explores, they are counterpointed to the timeless tempo implied by the opening vibration. Bruckner when working on his symphonies may have had in mind certain programmes (as in the 4th) or certain programmes for parts of symphonies (as in the 8th) and he certainly referred to objective sounds like one of the calls of the Great Tit in the first movement of the 4th. And I think you can also say that different parts of his symphonies have different moods: calm and contented, mysterious, elated, even panic-stricken (parts of the Ninth). However, these are foreground to the cosmic background as it were.

Very interesting take on Bruckner's music. I agree that there's certainly an aim at expressing music that goes beyond our meager existence.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 22, 2016, 07:59:47 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 21, 2016, 11:18:30 PM
"Here's a question for everyone: what do you think Bruckner's intent was in his music?
What was his intent? How about getting just getting performed and maybe just make a few $$$?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on June 22, 2016, 10:55:01 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 22, 2016, 07:59:47 AM
What was his intent? How about getting just getting performed and maybe just make a few $$$?
He utterly failed at this front most of the time. Some of his symphonies were premiered in versions for two pianos because he could nor raise enough money or enthusiasm.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on June 22, 2016, 11:19:38 AM
Quote from: André on June 21, 2016, 12:09:22 PM
His innate lack of confidence led him to revisit, revise and alter his scores, mostly to the good.
Bruckner had quite a lot of confidence, although he did rely on the opinions of friends and colleagues as well -- but certainly without confidence he would never have written the way he did, and would have been trained out of his characteristic style and into something more "normal" very early.

He did, however, probably have something we'd now recognise as obsessive-compulsive disorder, which is a more likely explanation for the constant revision (especially considering how numerically focused it was) and his occasional bouts of insecurity and depression. At least, that tallies with everything I've seen in the literature.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on June 22, 2016, 12:10:18 PM
Some of his quirks like counting windows of buildings or meticulously making sure that he observed the rules for fasting days also point toward some obsessive-compulsive tics.
As he started out from a very humble situation he also craved public recognition, that's why even as a fairly experienced musician he took exams in counterpoint etc. to get official statements that he was a master of the craft.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Parsifal on June 22, 2016, 12:18:38 PM
Quote from: amw on June 22, 2016, 11:19:38 AM
Bruckner had quite a lot of confidence, although he did rely on the opinions of friends and colleagues as well -- but certainly without confidence he would never have written the way he did, and would have been trained out of his characteristic style and into something more "normal" very early.

There is a distinction between having confidence in your own ability and having confidence that you will receive recognition for your work.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 22, 2016, 03:14:54 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 21, 2016, 11:18:30 PM
"Here's a question for everyone: what do you think Bruckner's intent was in his music? You could definitely call this music absolute music in the sense that there's no kind of program with any of the works with only the subtitle of Romantic given to Symphony No. 4 and that subtitle alone hardly tells us anything. What do you guys think the music is expressing?"

I think that Bruckner was a mystic, attuned to the energy of the universe (which he would have called "God"). This is why most of his symphonies begin with the famous string vibrato, which is an expression of the buzzing potential energy of the universe. His symphonies then explore the different expressions of this energy, the different tempi, ranging from energetic scherzi to slow movements that are very slow. But whatever the tempi he explores, they are counterpointed to the timeless tempo implied by the opening vibration. Bruckner when working on his symphonies may have had in mind certain programmes (as in the 4th) or certain programmes for parts of symphonies (as in the 8th) and he certainly referred to objective sounds like one of the calls of the Great Tit in the first movement of the 4th. And I think you can also say that different parts of his symphonies have different moods: calm and contented, mysterious, elated, even panic-stricken (parts of the Ninth). However, these are foreground to the cosmic background as it were.

I meant tremolos

:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 22, 2016, 05:37:21 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 22, 2016, 12:18:38 PM
There is a distinction between having confidence in your own ability and having confidence that you will receive recognition for your work.
Exactly, and what do composers want more than anything else: to get their works PERFORMED, or else why publish them? Bruckner was going to do anything: re-orchestrating, chopping, others rewriting, anything to his works performed. During his time these were works that were tediously long, requiring vast orchestral forces that the run-of-the mill orchestras just couldn't do.

And he did receive recognition for his work, the 7th symphony was an unqualified success and the 8th while not as lionized was premiered by a major orchestra.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 23, 2016, 04:06:27 AM
What does everyone think of Haitink's Bruckner cycle?

(http://boxset.ru/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/haitink_bruckner_the_symphonies.jpg)

I've owned this set for years, but I don't think I've listened to it all that much. Any standout performances?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 23, 2016, 04:29:43 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 23, 2016, 04:06:27 AM
What does everyone think of Haitink's Bruckner cycle?

(http://boxset.ru/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/haitink_bruckner_the_symphonies.jpg)

I've owned this set for years, but I don't think I've listened to it all that much. Any standout performances?
Not really.  Sorry, a pretty superfluous set as anything out there is better. Only interesting if you must have the Dutch orchestra in this music, otherwise a real bore. 5 and 6 are ok but not real standouts. The others I don't remember being in any way memorable.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 23, 2016, 04:35:03 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 23, 2016, 04:29:43 AM
Not really.  Sorry, a pretty superfluous set as anything out there is better. Only interesting if you must have the Dutch orchestra in this music, otherwise a real bore. 5 and 6 are ok but not real standouts. The others I don't remember being in any way memorable.

I'm starting to now remember what I don't like about this particular cycle. As you mentioned, I didn't really hear anything in Haitink's interpretations that stood out to me, which I suppose what prompted me to inquire about it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 23, 2016, 07:45:07 AM
The 1st and 8 th are dynamic and superbly played. Among my favourite performances. There are better accounts for the rest.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on June 23, 2016, 07:50:08 AM
Well, there's somebody on GMG who thinks that set is among the best there is - I remember hearing that recommendation. I think Haitink comes close to getting the tempo right in 7's first movement - which is a rare quality. Am currently enjoying the Ninth from that set.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2016, 09:49:42 AM
At (I think) Jens's suggestion, I fetched in Haitink recordings of the Fifth (Bavarian Radio) and Sixth (Dresdner Staatskapelle) . . . also the Seventh (Chicago);  and I certainly enjoy all those thoroughly.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on June 23, 2016, 11:05:58 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 23, 2016, 09:49:42 AM
At (I think) Jens's suggestion, I fetched in Haitink recordings of the Fifth (Bavarian Radio) and Sixth (Dresdner Staatskapelle) . . . also the Seventh (Chicago);  and I certainly enjoy all those thoroughly.

I enjoy that Dresdner 6th, too.
The other recordings I don't know, but then, I have to say, I'm not a true Bruckner connaisseur.

Apart from that: from the above mentioned Haitink set, I prefer the 'young' Bruckner symphonies, especially nos 1 & 2. They're bold and fresh and Haitink makes them sound like true masterpieces.
He later re-recorded nos 8 & 9 in the early 1980s with the Amsterdam forces (now officially OOP), and I consider them to be errr... quite magnificent. There's a noble depth in those performances, combined with supreme sound quality. Speaking of which: the boxset recording quality is splendid, too. I remember feeling very sad when I heard that Philips was to quit the recording bizz, because I loved their issues so much.

I never heard much mediocrity and dullness in Haitink's performances btw. If you want emotion and intensity on call, then go for conductors like Gergiev. If you want a recording that lasts a lifetime, and which will grow on you during the years, then go for Haitink.

Well, to some this may sound like utter bullshit, but there's nothing against bullshit, as long as God's blessing rests upon it, that's what I always say.
(Loosely translated, after Dutch writer Gerard Reve.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2016, 11:13:34 AM
Quote from: Marc on June 23, 2016, 11:05:58 AM
. . . from the above mentioned Haitink set, I prefer the 'young' Bruckner symphonies, especially nos 1 & 2. They're bold and fresh and Haitink makes them sound like true masterpieces.

He later re-recorded nos 8 & 9 in the early 1980s with the Amsterdam forces (now officially OOP), and I consider them to be errr... quite magnificent. There's a noble depth in those performances, combined with supreme sound quality. Speaking of which: the boxset recording quality is splendid, too. I remember feeling very sad when I heard that Philips was to quit the recording bizz, because I loved their issues so much.

I never heard much mediocrity and dullness in Haitink's performances btw.

I hold many* of his Shostakovich recordings and his entire Vaughan Williams cycle in high regard, indeed . . . which has at times seemed the contrarian position  8)

* I do not think I have heard all 15 symphonies from his Decca cycle.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on June 23, 2016, 11:22:03 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 23, 2016, 11:13:34 AM
I hold many* of his Shostakovich recordings and his entire Vaughan Williams cycle in high regard, indeed . . . which has at times seemed the contrarian position  8)

* I do not think I have heard all 15 symphonies from his Decca cycle.

Right now I'm listening to Haitink's Bruckner 9 from 1981 (not in the above mentioned box) and it moves me. The Adagio is beautiful. Haitink doesn't turn the old Bruckner into a Mahler-avant-la-lettre, but gives this music its own space and time to sink in. Works great for me.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 24, 2016, 07:44:22 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51CNxj1OB-L.jpg)

A powerful interpretation of the 7th. The disc cover mentions 1954. What I have is a copy a friend gave me, with his own notes. He mentions Aug. 5, 1964. John Berky's web site lists it as 1964 too. To me the sound is clearly 1964, not 1954 (clean, big dynamic range, very little hiss). Anyone has access to more information?

Be that as it may, it's one of the top performances of the work, ever.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Pat B on June 24, 2016, 10:22:01 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 23, 2016, 07:50:08 AM
Well, there's somebody on GMG who thinks that set is among the best there is - I remember hearing that recommendation. I think Haitink comes close to getting the tempo right in 7's first movement - which is a rare quality. Am currently enjoying the Ninth from that set.

I don't know if you care but the 9th you posted in the listening thread is the later one Marc mentioned, not the one from his cycle.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Pat B on June 24, 2016, 10:32:24 PM
Quote from: André on June 24, 2016, 07:44:22 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51CNxj1OB-L.jpg)

A powerful interpretation of the 7th. The disc cover mentions 1954. What I have is a copy a friend gave me, with his own notes. He mentions Aug. 5, 1964. John Berky's web site lists it as 1964 too. To me the sound is clearly 1964, not 1954 (clean, big dynamic range, very little hiss). Anyone has access to more information?

Be that as it may, it's one of the top performances of the work, ever.

Hard to tell from that JPG but that's a 6.

http://testament.co.uk/carl-schuricht-2-cd-set-for-the-price-of-1-5.html (http://testament.co.uk/carl-schuricht-2-cd-set-for-the-price-of-1-5.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on June 24, 2016, 10:50:27 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 23, 2016, 11:13:34 AM
I hold many* of his Shostakovich recordings and his entire Vaughan Williams cycle in high regard, indeed . . . which has at times seemed the contrarian position  8)

* I do not think I have heard all 15 symphonies from his Decca cycle.
I agree with Karl.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on June 25, 2016, 12:23:32 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 23, 2016, 07:50:08 AM
Well, there's somebody on GMG who thinks that set is among the best there is - I remember hearing that recommendation. I think Haitink comes close to getting the tempo right in 7's first movement - which is a rare quality. Am currently enjoying the Ninth from that set.
Quote from: karlhenning on June 23, 2016, 09:49:42 AM
At (I think) Jens's suggestion, I fetched in Haitink recordings of the Fifth (Bavarian Radio) and Sixth (Dresdner Staatskapelle) . . . also the Seventh (Chicago);  and I certainly enjoy all those thoroughly.

The former, not me. The latter, absolutely! I think that Haitink's Non-Official cycles tend to be better (for whatever reason; perhaps age) than the official ones... be it Mahler or Bruckner. I have that main Philips Bruckner cycles and I have his Vienna Bruckner recordings... and I really ought to listen to them more carefully again... but until now I've not been really caught swooning. But those extracurricular Bruckner recordings are real bangers. [Uhm, phrasing?!]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 25, 2016, 05:50:25 AM
I quite agree, Jens.

I really love these two Haitink Bruckner recordings:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41VwSUGhb%2BL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61bruY4H6hL._SL1012_.jpg)

Apparently, Haitink has an obsessive pointing problem. ;) Anyway, these two recordings really display his flair for Bruckner more so than that Philips Concertgebouw cycle, which I thought were lukewarm performances. I think Jens maybe onto something with the age comment. Haitink turned into quite the Brucknerian.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on June 25, 2016, 06:02:18 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 25, 2016, 12:23:32 AM
The former, not me. The latter, absolutely! I think that Haitink's Non-Official cycles tend to be better (for whatever reason; perhaps age) than the official ones... be it Mahler or Bruckner. I have that main Philips Bruckner cycles and I have his Vienna Bruckner recordings... and I really ought to listen to them more carefully again... but until now I've not been really caught swooning. But those extracurricular Bruckner recordings are real bangers. [Uhm, phrasing?!]

It might be age, too, but I guess that the main cause is that these recordings are all live.

Haitink seems to need a live audience to bring out his best.
(The same goes for f.i. for his Beethoven and Mahler.)

His studio recordings are still solid to good though, IMHO.
Well thought out, and no mannerisms.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on June 25, 2016, 06:33:32 AM
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/TOQyQ8HiDBI/AAAAAAAABU0/cmY_Qt-rBEw/s400/bearnard-haitink094.png)

Quote from: Marc on June 25, 2016, 06:02:18 AM
It might be age, too, but I guess that the main cause is that these recordings are all live.

Haitink seems to need a live audience to bring out his best.
(The same goes for f.i. for his Beethoven and Mahler.)

His studio recordings are still solid to good though, IMHO.
Well thought out, and no mannerisms.

You make a very good point... as it applies to his Mahler as well. (Though not to the LSO recordings, by-and-large, except in turn the Strauss Alpine Symphony) Are there earlier live recordings against which we can check this theory?

Here's a link to ALL his non-cycle Bruckner (http://www.amazon.com/lm/R3AZ7P8N8MVIT9/?_encoding=UTF8&tag=nectarandambr-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=390957&lm_bb=).
And here's a link just to his "unofficial" late-live international cycle (so far Nos. 4-8): Alternative Bernard Haitink Bruckner (https://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/R3AZ7P8N8MVIT9/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&linkCode=ur2&lm_bb=&tag=forbessoundadvice-20&linkId=J4O2454DZYGQ7BND)

Here a couple apropos links to reviews of these albums:

#5
Ionarts-at-Large: Haitink in Bruckner, Ozawa not in Bruckner [review of the concert from which the recording was made]
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41VwSUGhb+L._AC_US160_.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/02/ionarts-at-large-haitink-in-bruckner.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/02/ionarts-at-large-haitink-in-bruckner.html)

#6
Dip Your Ears, No. 80b (Bruckner 6)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000LC4Y1S.01.L.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-no-80b-bruckner-6.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-no-80b-bruckner-6.html)

#7
"B7" - Solti, Haitink, Böhm & Co.
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000VPNK5Q.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/05/b7-solti-haitink-bhm-co.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/05/b7-solti-haitink-bhm-co.html)


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Parsifal on June 25, 2016, 07:27:27 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 23, 2016, 07:50:08 AM
Well, there's somebody on GMG who thinks that set is among the best there is - I remember hearing that recommendation. I think Haitink comes close to getting the tempo right in 7's first movement - which is a rare quality. Am currently enjoying the Ninth from that set.

I don't know if I am the only one, but I have expressed the opinion that Haitink's Bruckner set is my favorite. I have this version, I don't know if it is identical to the current offering (Haitink has several alternate versions of Bruckner symphonies with the RCO).

[asin]B00000E589[/asin]

When there is a choice, I think this set contains the earlier recording.  It is not that I think that every recording is superlative. Mainly I like Haitink's approach, in which he allows the music to unfold in a natural way, without the need to put his personal stamp on it. There is enough histrionics written into the music without layering more on. Philips engineering is also well suited to this music, in my opinion. I haven't heard much of the out-of-cycle Haitink, although I remember not liking his VPO recordings on Philips.

There are other recordings that I love, such as Karajan's 1989 VPO recording of the 8th (I heard him perform it live with that orchestra just a few months before he died and it was the most exciting musical performance I have ever experienced). Karajan's BP recordings are also revelatory, particularly the EMI recordings (better engineered than the DG counterparts). There is stuff on my shelves that I have to listen to or revisit, such as Barenboim's cycle and Inbal's set of original editions.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on June 25, 2016, 11:14:14 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 25, 2016, 07:27:27 AM
I don't know if I am the only one, but I have expressed the opinion that Haitink's Bruckner set is my favorite. I have this version, I don't know if it is identical to the current offering (Haitink has several alternate versions of Bruckner symphonies with the RCO).

[asin]B00000E589[/asin]

When there is a choice, I think this set contains the earlier recording.  It is not that I think that every recording is superlative. Mainly I like Haitink's approach, in which he allows the music to unfold in a natural way, without the need to put his personal stamp on it. There is enough histrionics written into the music without layering more on. Philips engineering is also well suited to this music, in my opinion. I haven't heard much of the out-of-cycle Haitink, although I remember not liking his VPO recordings on Philips.

There are other recordings that I love, such as Karajan's 1989 VPO recording of the 8th (I heard him perform it live with that orchestra just a few months before he died and it was the most exciting musical performance I have ever experienced). Karajan's BP recordings are also revelatory, particularly the EMI recordings (better engineered than the DG counterparts). There is stuff on my shelves that I have to listen to or revisit, such as Barenboim's cycle and Inbal's set of original editions.

Revisiting Bruckner, that's a great idea!

I have some Ormandy, Suitner, Eichhorn, Inbal and Colin Davis that I should revisit.
If only I had the time... or should I just stop blabbering around in that wretched Diner section?

About the Haintink boxes: I think they have the same content (= the 1960s/1970s cycle).
This cycle is now re-issued in a Haitink symphonies box, which, btw, doesn't contain his well-known Shostakovich and Vaughan Williams cycles.

https://www.amazon.com/Symphony-36-CD-Limited/dp/B00GMVBL7W?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&tag=goodmusicguideco
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on June 25, 2016, 11:42:52 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 25, 2016, 06:33:32 AM
[...] Are there earlier live recordings against which we can check this theory? [...]

The Christmas Matinee recordings of Mahler, and his farewell Mahler 8 in Amsterdam, when he was a young man of 59 ;).
Despite the imperfections (I for instance am not that fond of Gwyneth Jones), much better and more moving than his 'studio' recording.

https://www.youtube.com/v/vjbc5qrFJK8

In the Christmas recordings, there are great performances of f.i. Mahler 3, 5, 7 and 9.
Here's no. 7 (25-12-1985):

https://www.youtube.com/v/Q4fWE-JRgMU

I realize that these Mahler clips are in fact off-topic, but, then again, Gustav was a true Bruckner protagonist. :)

And here's B. Haitink truly young, rehearsing et al in black & white.

https://www.youtube.com/v/Z4kFBozhS2k

And this is Haitink's studio recording of Bruckner 9 (1981), NOT collected in the Bruckner NOR in the Haitink symphonies box.

https://www.youtube.com/v/IflSxve72dg
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on June 25, 2016, 01:16:41 PM
Quote from: Marc on June 25, 2016, 11:42:52 AM
The Christmas Matinee recordings of Mahler, and his farewell Mahler 8 in Amsterdam, when he was a young man of 59 ;).
Despite the imperfections (I for instance am not that fond of Gwyneth Jones), much better and more moving than his 'studio' recording.

The Christmas Mahler I have; never noticed it to be a different league to his studio recordings, but I certainly like it. The fact that I like it better might be due to my being a little proud to have that set in the first place.  :D
In Mahler 8th, it's a low bar he set; it is the symphony that interested him least and it shows. Any early live Bruckner you know of?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on June 25, 2016, 01:33:23 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 25, 2016, 01:16:41 PM
The Christmas Mahler I have; never noticed it to be a different league to his studio recordings, but I certainly like it. The fact that I like it better might be due to my being a little proud to have that set in the first place.  :D
In Mahler 8th, it's a low bar he set; it is the symphony that interested him least and it shows. Any early live Bruckner you know of?

There's a Te Deum from 1966, with a.o. Elly Ameling and Anna Reynolds. It's pretty good.
Recorded live for the Dutch radio (IIRC) and issued for the 'Dutch Masters' series - volume 46, Philips 462 943-2 -, combined with Bruckner 8 (the 2nd studio recording, 1981).

(http://116.imagebam.com/download/UgH7F75jLH91SCoQCDBxoQ/49184/491831547/bruckner%208%20haitink.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 25, 2016, 07:07:24 PM
What does everyone think of Jaap van Zweden's Bruckner recordings? Any standouts amongst the series?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on June 26, 2016, 02:45:18 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 25, 2016, 07:07:24 PM
What does everyone think of Jaap van Zweden's Bruckner recordings? Any standouts amongst the series?

I like what I've heard so far... 3 and 8 especially. Little tip of the hat: A complete cycle that includes the symphonies on Exton and those on Challenge should be forthcoming within months.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on June 26, 2016, 05:14:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 25, 2016, 07:07:24 PM
What does everyone think of Jaap van Zweden's Bruckner recordings? Any standouts amongst the series?
His Sixth came in, I think, third or fourth place in the blind listening game, with special praise for the slow movement and general integrity, and a bit of critique for a slowdown in the middle of the finale.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 26, 2016, 05:36:47 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 26, 2016, 02:45:18 AM
I like what I've heard so far... 3 and 8 especially. Little tip of the hat: A complete cycle that includes the symphonies on Exton and those on Challenge should be forthcoming within months.

Thanks for this info, Jens. Any idea of when we might see this cycle appear or would that be giving away too much? ;)

Quote from: Brian on June 26, 2016, 05:14:15 AM
His Sixth came in, I think, third or fourth place in the blind listening game, with special praise for the slow movement and general integrity, and a bit of critique for a slowdown in the middle of the finale.

Interesting. I wonder who's 6th came in first place?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 26, 2016, 05:51:56 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 26, 2016, 05:36:47 AM
Interesting. I wonder who's 6th came in first place?

Celi first. Van Zweden and Klemperer tied for second place.


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23157.msg845711.html#msg845711

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 26, 2016, 05:54:51 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 26, 2016, 05:51:56 AM
Celi first. Van Zweden and Klemperer tied for second place.

Sarge

Cool even though I don't like Celibidache's Bruckner. Klemperer's 6th is quite overrated, too. I was just listening to Haitink's live 6th with the Staatskapelle last night and truly found this to be one of the better performances I've heard. Everything sounded perfectly paced and phrased. Someone here mentioned that Haitink sounds better live and I can't help but nod my head in agreement as he seemed much more animated than usual.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 26, 2016, 06:05:19 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 26, 2016, 05:54:51 AMKlemperer's 6th is quite overrated, too.

Klemp's Sixth came in second...thereby proving it is criminally underrated  >:(

Seriously, his Sixth has been a critical darling since it was first issued and the members here, in the blind listening, confirmed just how great it is.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 26, 2016, 06:12:20 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 26, 2016, 06:05:19 AM
Klemp's Sixth came in second...thereby proving it is criminally underrated  >:(

Seriously, his Sixth has been a critical darling since it was first issued and the members here, in the blind listening, confirmed just how great it is.

Sarge

:)

I disagree with many Brucknerians about Klemperer's 6th, but it's certainly fine with me that it's highly acclaimed as I have no bone in this fight. All I'm saying is I didn't think much of it. Klemperer's Beethoven and Wagner, on the other hand, are extremely good.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on June 26, 2016, 10:20:05 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 26, 2016, 06:05:19 AM
Klemp's Sixth came in second...thereby proving it is criminally underrated  >:(

Seriously, his Sixth has been a critical darling since it was first issued and the members here, in the blind listening, confirmed just how great it is.

Sarge
I think, all these months after the contest, Klemp and Celi are still in my top five, with Barenboim/Berlin and Nagano. More recently, Schaller and Inbal/Tokyo/live deserve honorable mentions.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ken B on June 26, 2016, 10:25:27 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 26, 2016, 10:20:05 AM
I think, all these months after the contest, Klemp and Celi are still in my top five, with Barenboim/Berlin and Nagano. More recently, Schaller and Inbal/Tokyo/live deserve honorable mentions.

I just listened to Celi 7 the other day. Underwhelming. Maybe my least favorite version. And generally I like slow Bruckner. Now I want to dig out Paternostro's 6 ...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 26, 2016, 12:11:34 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 26, 2016, 10:25:27 AM
I just listened to Celi 7 the other day. Underwhelming. Maybe my least favorite version.

3, 4, 5 & 6, are, I think, Celi's best Bruckner. I love 8 too but admit one needs the patience of Job to sit through it. Worth it, though.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 27, 2016, 07:55:42 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 26, 2016, 06:12:20 AM
:)

I disagree with many Brucknerians about Klemperer's 6th, but it's certainly fine with me that it's highly acclaimed as I have no bone in this fight. All I'm saying is I didn't think much of it. Klemperer's Beethoven and Wagner, on the other hand, are extremely good.

I have 3 Klemperer 6ths and each tells a vastly different story. The man could be quite schizophrenic at times...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 28, 2016, 07:06:34 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread -

Quote from: Mirror Image on June 27, 2016, 05:12:23 PM
Did some shopping on jpc.de and here are the results:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51SKDtu74qL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/516AY7T8b-L.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51JN2pnpsQL.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51O8gcFnZGL.jpg) (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_1080/MI0003/042/MI0003042851.jpg?partner=allrovi.com) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51GOWYaP07L.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51d5adluHcL.jpg) (http://img.maniadb.com/images/album/274/274264_1_f.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51wgRIfVh%2BL.jpg)

Does anyone else own the Davies Bruckner series on Arte Nova? What do you think of these performances? I only listened to a few audio samples and they sounded wonderful.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on June 28, 2016, 10:56:08 PM
I think at least the ones with "early versions" are considered among the best of their kind. (I only had the 4th and I just don't like that piece in the early version.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 29, 2016, 05:01:24 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 28, 2016, 10:56:08 PM
I think at least the ones with "early versions" are considered among the best of their kind. (I only had the 4th and I just don't like that piece in the early version.)

Thanks for the feedback. I don't think I know the early versions well at all or at least not well enough to say why I like them or dislike them. In due time.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 29, 2016, 05:06:52 AM
Another Brucknerian conductor I enjoy: Wolfgang Sawallisch. Too bad he only recorded the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 9th. :(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 29, 2016, 05:18:03 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 26, 2016, 06:05:19 AM
Klemp's Sixth came in second...thereby proving it is criminally underrated  >:(

Seriously, his Sixth has been a critical darling since it was first issued and the members here, in the blind listening, confirmed just how great it is.

Sarge

Quote from: André on June 27, 2016, 07:55:42 AM
I have 3 Klemperer 6ths and each tells a vastly different story. The man could be quite schizophrenic at times...

I have told the story before, but it has been a few years: I once had a recording of Bruckner's Fifth Symphony conducted by Klemperer, and was amazed at how energetic it was.

Then I noticed that I was hearing the wrong key(s).  ???

And then I noticed that my sister had set the record player to 45 rpm!  :laugh:

My #1B choice in the blind listening was Gunter Wand.

My Number One #1 choice was of course  0:) Eugen  0:) Jochum  0:)  !   ;)

Concerning Dennis Russell Davies: his handling of other works (e.g. Hans Rott's Symphony in E minor)  is most excellent, so I would trust that he could and would handle Bruckner in the same manner!

He is also from Ohio (Toledo, specifically)!   8) 0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on June 29, 2016, 05:19:16 AM
DRD has impressive range.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 29, 2016, 05:24:24 AM
Quote from: Cato on June 29, 2016, 05:18:03 AMConcerning Dennis Russell Davies: his handling of other works (e.g. Hans Rott's Symphony in E minor)  is most excellent, so I would trust that he could and would handle Bruckner in the same manner!

He is also from Ohio (Toledo, specifically)!   8) 0:)

Like Karl mentioned, Davies has a wide range of composers he's interested in. I'm also quite certain that he would bring a unique approach to Bruckner as he does with all the music he conducts. He really seems to be able to get inside of the music he conducts and offer a different kind of interpretation.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2016, 05:29:07 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 28, 2016, 07:06:34 PM

Does anyone else own the Davies Bruckner series on Arte Nova? What do you think of these performances? I only listened to a few audio samples and they sounded wonderful.

I own 2, 3, 5 and 6 but have only given 6 a critical listen. I was first intrigued by it during the blind listening. amw and I liked it, but the other participants put it in last place, eliminating it in the first round. Since you and I usually disagree about Bruckner performances, you may not like it either. Here's what we said about the first movement:


Sarge:

Listened to A1, the performance that polarized the group. I can see why amw likes it...and I can also see why the others rated it last. I was torn between intellectual doubt and emotional cheering. The interpretation is very unusual with abrupt differences in tempo that, I don't think, are justified by the score. The first and second themes are played at a fairly brisk pace and I thought, How is this going to be stretched out to almost 19 minutes? The answer came with the third theme and the development, taken at a snail's pace. I initially rebelled but kept listening. The development really is enchanting. Then there was an accelerando into the central climax that thrilled with thunderous timpani. The coda likewise had two very different tempos, the first initially slow, almost like a trudging pilgrim approaching a celestial goal, then suddenly a quick dash to the end with a decisive final chord (no lingering), just how I like it.

The sudden shifts in speeds are jarring but they kept me awake. It's the kind of interpretation I tend to like: something different. I couldn't wait for the reveal; I did some research to find out who it is, and ordered it.


amw:

So far I have listened to A1 (as background music while making dinner, to get an idea of the structure), A2, A3 and A1 again (blasted through the speakers as only Bruckner can be). Note that these are my only exposure to this piece so far; haven't heard it before and don't have a score.

I liked A1 the most, it had a vividness and presence and "explained" the music to me in a way the others didn't.


lisztianwagner:

A1 – The orchestral sound is clear and melodious, instruments well handled and balanced, but the rhythm is too slow and makes the movement lack energy and intensity, with a sense of heaviness.


Pim:

A1: dragging along a bit, not very captivating


ChamberNut:

A1 - 1 point - Quite sluggish, not enough momentum, especially in the key moments, overall sound quality and dynamics are OK.


Monkey Greg (comment during the reveal):

A1 has become a popular figure already. Receiving three last place votes and one first place, also gathering a late "thumbs up" review from Sarge. And if you thought the opening movement is slow, then you may not be prepared for the 18-minute finale, but it needs to be heard, certainly a different universe of Bruckner. Dennis Russell Davies may be the new Cool Kid of the Haydn Haus, but has yet to be offered a key into Bruckner's Abbey, perhaps over time, and with amw and Sarge's seal of approval, it may find its way into a better looking position. But not today, not now. Sorry, DRD.


And here is what amw wrote about those tempo changes I was skeptical of:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23157.msg813794.html#msg813794
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2016, 05:34:33 AM
Quote from: Cato on June 29, 2016, 05:18:03 AMDennis Russell Davies
He is also from Ohio (Toledo, specifically)!   8) 0:)

No wonder I like him  8)  His Rott is good.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on June 29, 2016, 06:05:46 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2016, 05:29:07 AM
And here is what amw wrote about those tempo changes I was skeptical of:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23157.msg813794.html#msg813794
To be fair there's one really obvious thing Davies doesn't follow—the metronome marks. He takes both of them about 15-20% slower than in the score. I can't say I am sold. For the correct opening tempo (but not the correct Bedeutend langsamer) Marcus Bosch is your man. Some combination of Bosch and Davies would be ideal, obviously >_>
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 29, 2016, 06:07:08 AM
Thanks for the feedback, Sarge, but I actually listened to the Scherzo from the 6th from Davies and thought it was very good. I didn't find it dragging at all. I found it's overall pacing and musical phrasing to be quite good actually. Of course, hearing it on the ol' home stereo will be even better. The only Bruckner I find dragging is Celibidache and that newcomer Rémy Ballot who I believe may actually be one of the worst Bruckner conductors I ever heard. A solid 10/10 on the 'Bland-O-Meter'. ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on June 29, 2016, 06:13:01 AM
Quote from: amw on June 29, 2016, 06:05:46 AM
To be fair there's one really obvious thing Davies doesn't follow—the metronome marks. He takes both of them about 15-20% slower than in the score. I can't say I am sold. For the correct opening tempo (but not the correct Bedeutend langsamer) Marcus Bosch is your man. Some combination of Bosch and Davies would be ideal, obviously >_>
*listening to samples of Bosch*

Wow - that is a crazy fast intro to me. Although Rögner is similar, I think. Gonna go check now.

EDIT: No real Bedeutend langsamer with Rögner, either. Maybe nobody trusts ol' Anton's instincts.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 29, 2016, 06:22:29 AM
Quote from: amw on June 29, 2016, 06:05:46 AM
To be fair there's one really obvious thing Davies doesn't follow—the metronome marks. He takes both of them about 15-20% slower than in the score. I can't say I am sold. For the correct opening tempo (but not the correct Bedeutend langsamer) Marcus Bosch is your man. Some combination of Bosch and Davies would be ideal, obviously >_>

I actually sampled some of Bosch's 6th and it's just too fast for my tastes. Didn't like his approach at all. Sawallisch in the 6th, on the other hand, is marvelous and just my kind of performance not to mention HvK and Haitink's live Dresden account.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on June 29, 2016, 07:23:54 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 28, 2016, 07:06:34 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread -

Does anyone else own the Davies Bruckner series on Arte Nova? What do you think of these performances? I only listened to a few audio samples and they sounded wonderful.

I streamed the finale of No.5 out of curiosity and did not like it. Boring in its pace and bland overall. Forgettable.

Also, the covers are eyesores.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 29, 2016, 07:59:01 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on June 29, 2016, 07:23:54 AM
I streamed the finale of No.5 out of curiosity and did not like it. Boring in its pace and bland overall. Forgettable.

Also, the covers are eyesores.

Can't be any more bland and boring than Celibidache or hell even Jochum. 0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on June 29, 2016, 08:05:29 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 29, 2016, 07:59:01 AM
Can't be any more bland and boring than Celibidache or hell even Jochum. 0:)
*Sarge and Cato retrieve bazookas*
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2016, 09:08:56 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 29, 2016, 08:05:29 AM
*Sarge and Cato retrieve bazookas*


(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/1408.gif)
  (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/14_6_12.gif)                              MIRROR IMAGE
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on June 29, 2016, 09:14:01 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 29, 2016, 07:59:01 AM
Can't be any more bland and boring than Celibidache or hell even Jochum. 0:)

Hah! He'd probably give an arm and a leg or any other combination of body parts necessary to reach the level of a Celibidache or a Jochum.

Quote from: Brian on June 29, 2016, 08:05:29 AM
*Sarge and Cato retrieve bazookas*

No need. ICBM launched and on its way.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 29, 2016, 12:10:28 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 29, 2016, 08:05:29 AM
*Sarge and Cato retrieve bazookas*

Bazookas?!  Those are for wimps!

(http://www.davidpride.com/Army/images/US_APG_44.jpg)

Say hello to my VERY BIG friend!   $:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 29, 2016, 12:18:52 PM
Back to Klemperer and the 6th.  ;)
A common feature of all three performances is the extreme slowness of the introduction to I. It sounds for all the world like a morse code transcription of "I - am - dying"  in slow motion. A visual image would be that of a myopic man tentatively tapping the bed table for his goggles.

When it comes to tempo in Bruckner, it's all a matter of rythm. Not speed or slowness, but firmness of beat and strength of motion. Klemperer knew that. Which enabled him to slow down with age without losing an ounce of grip on the structure of the phrases.

True, his tempo for the beginning of the 6th was sloooow from the get go, regrdless of the year or orchestra. But he made you (me) sit back and take a deep breath before launching a powerful Allegro.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2016, 02:01:34 PM
Quote from: Cato on June 29, 2016, 12:10:28 PM
Bazookas?!  Those are for wimps!

(http://www.davidpride.com/Army/images/US_APG_44.jpg)

Say hello to my VERY BIG friend!   $:)

The M65 Atomic Cannon...wow. I haven't seen a picture of that weapon since probably the 50s.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2016, 02:03:01 PM
Quote from: André on June 29, 2016, 12:18:52 PM
True, his tempo for the beginning of the 6th was sloooow from the get go, regrdless of the year or orchestra. But he made you (me) sit back and take a deep breath before launching a powerful Allegro.

Oh yeah. I like the way his slow tempo builds anticipation before the inevitable explosion.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 29, 2016, 06:54:13 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on June 29, 2016, 09:14:01 AM
Hah! He'd probably give an arm and a leg or any other combination of body parts necessary to reach the level of a Celibidache or a Jochum.

Well, music isn't some sort of competition. I just don't like S-L-O-W Bruckner. As for Davies giving an arm and leg to be able to reach the level of a Celibidache or a Jochum...well that's just a silly assertion on your part. I don't think Davies thinks he's better than anyone and I certainly don't think he'd give a rat's ass whether he was another Celibidache or Jochum. He has his own agenda and you can either respect it or not. I don't like Celibidach or Jochum and you don't like Davies. Fair enough...let's move on.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 29, 2016, 08:03:43 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2016, 09:08:56 AM

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/1408.gif)
  (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/14_6_12.gif)                              MIRROR IMAGE

:P I'm really starting to feel the love around here. ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 29, 2016, 08:05:53 PM
All of this negative talk of mine about Celibidache, I do plan to revisit his Bruckner EMI set at some point or at least listen to a few performances from it. See if I can get onboard with his view on Bruckner now.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on June 29, 2016, 11:09:56 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 29, 2016, 06:54:13 PM
Well, music isn't some sort of competition.

Well, you started this:
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 29, 2016, 07:59:01 AM
Can't be any more bland and boring than Celibidache or hell even Jochum. 0:)


Quote from: Mirror Image on June 29, 2016, 06:54:13 PM
As for Davies giving an arm and leg to be able to reach the level of a Celibidache or a Jochum...well that's just a silly assertion on your part. I don't think Davies thinks he's better than anyone and I certainly don't think he'd give a rat's ass whether he was another Celibidache or Jochum.

It's an assertion, same as yours, but mine actually does him credit. It's only natural for a second- or third-tier conductor to aspire to reach the level of the greats in the field.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 30, 2016, 01:27:36 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on June 29, 2016, 11:09:56 PM
Well, you started this:

It's an assertion, same as yours, but mine actually does him credit. It's only natural for a second- or third-tier conductor to aspire to reach the level of the greats in the field.

But how do you know what Davies' aspirations are? I certainly don't claim to know.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on June 30, 2016, 04:01:59 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 30, 2016, 01:27:36 AMI certainly don't claim to know.

You claimed that he has "an agenda", which apparently does not include aspiring to reach the level of better musicians. Your guess is as good as mine; mine is just not insulting to the man.

Quote from: Mirror Image on June 30, 2016, 01:27:36 AM
But how...

How is it that you made an aside against Celibidache and Jochum, it backfired and now you're being deliberately obtuse about it? No idea. Good call, though!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 30, 2016, 05:06:15 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on June 30, 2016, 04:01:59 AM
You claimed that he has "an agenda", which apparently does not include aspiring to reach the level of better musicians. Your guess is as good as mine; mine is just not insulting to the man.

How is it that you made an aside against Celibidache and Jochum, it backfired and now you're being deliberately obtuse about it? No idea. Good call, though!

Accept my apologies. This particular dialogue between us will go no further.

Anyway, I'm listening to Sawallisch's B6 now and I've got to say this is just what the doctor ordered. My kind of Bruckner performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 30, 2016, 05:18:41 AM
On another note, has anyone heard this new B7 from Thielemann?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81-TLuPASwL._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on June 30, 2016, 05:55:54 AM
I do need to spend some time with my Celi Bruckner box . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 30, 2016, 06:03:04 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 30, 2016, 05:55:54 AM
I do need to spend some time with my Celi Bruckner box . . . .

Same here, but it may be awhile before I can get around to it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on June 30, 2016, 07:06:47 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 30, 2016, 05:18:41 AM
On another note, has anyone heard this new B7 from Thielemann?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81-TLuPASwL._SL1200_.jpg)

I'm making it the CD of the Week later today. Also heard the performance live: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/09/christian-thielemanns-inauguration.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/09/christian-thielemanns-inauguration.html)
The B7 is fine, not great, I think. Slightly better on CD than live, I thought... but if it is the CD of the Week, it's because of the Wagner, not the Bruckner. (The Wagner was not part of that concert.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 30, 2016, 07:49:29 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 30, 2016, 07:06:47 AM
The B7 is fine, not great, I think. Slightly better on CD than live, I thought... but if it is the CD of the Week, it's because of the Wagner, not the Bruckner. (The Wagner was not part of that concert.)

Well, I can easily pass over it since it's not a great performance. ;) I have zero interest in that Wagner work.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on June 30, 2016, 08:12:17 AM
I'm surprised Sawallisch's Bruckner doesn't get mentioned much here. He's utterly superb in this music. For me, everything is paced, phrased, and has the right amount of weight to the performances. The only performance of his I haven't heard is B1, but this is coming in the mail. Can't wait to hear this Saucy Maid. :) Also, what does everyone think of Georg Tintner's Bruckner cycle on Naxos? I have the box set, but, so far, I've only heard the 8th and wasn't particularly impressed with the rather scrappy playing for the orchestra. We'll see if my opinion changes over time.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mjmosca on July 03, 2016, 03:43:03 AM
Quote from: Danny on April 19, 2007, 10:37:04 AM
Just bought (an am liking) Bruckner's Fifth conducted by Welser-Most with the LSO.  I hear some hate this disc--and perhaps there are betters out there--but for the price I paid I cannot make any objections about its worth. 

Overall, I think its a very good interpretation and I especially love the first two movements.

I love the recording by Welser-Most with the LSO. I think I have 7 recordings of the Fifth and this is one of my favorites. At the end of the last movement, which is, after all the great triumphant moment that the entire work has been leading to Welser-Most gets the antiphonal brass choirs perfectly- many recordings (Rogner, for example) have them too recessed, barely audible. I don't know why this recording is not more respected (American Record Guide disliked it pretty intensely). I would love to hear from others as to which recordings of the Fifth are their favorites and why. -thank you!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 03, 2016, 05:12:15 AM
Quote from: mjmosca on July 03, 2016, 03:43:03 AM
I love the recording by Welser-Most with the LSO....I would love to hear from others as to which recordings of the Fifth are their favorites and why. -thank you!

W-M I really like. Interpretively at the opposite end from "monumental/epic" (exemplified by Celibidache or Marthé), he gives us Bruckner in swift, dramatic guise like Dohnányi/Cleveland, another favorite (and perhaps my desert island B5).

Another favorite is Jochum/Concertgebouw (on the Tahra label: a legendary live performance in which Jochum revives a Schalk  practice of introducing additional brass--4 horns, 3 trumpets, 3 trombones and tuba--at key points in the last movement).

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 03, 2016, 05:19:37 AM
Quote from: mjmosca on July 03, 2016, 03:43:03 AM
I love the recording by Welser-Most with the LSO. I think I have 7 recordings of the Fifth and this is one of my favorites. At the end of the last movement, which is, after all the great triumphant moment that the entire work has been leading to Welser-Most gets the antiphonal brass choirs perfectly- many recordings (Rogner, for example) have them too recessed, barely audible. I don't know why this recording is not more respected (American Record Guide disliked it pretty intensely). I would love to hear from others as to which recordings of the Fifth are their favorites and why. -thank you!

For me, it's hard to beat HvK and Wand (Berliner Philharmoniker or Cologne Radio SO performance) in the 5th. Both HvK and Wand couldn't be any more different interpretatively, though. HvK has a grander, flowing, 'building cathedral' approach to Bruckner that just works wonders. Wand, on the other hand, offers a more down-to-earth approach but with a razor-sharp precision and clarity. Both approaches couldn't be any more valid IMHO. Ultimately, however, it boils down to what you would like from your Bruckner performances. I can't say I know Welser-Most's Bruckner, but he's never been a conductor that's been under my radar either, so this is perhaps why I've never heard any of his performances.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 03, 2016, 10:25:06 AM
I just want to say that Bruckner is The Composer of the Month in the July 2016 issue of BBC Music Magazine. I just bought it via my local Barnes & Nobles. 8)

Posted from an Apple store. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mjmosca on July 04, 2016, 03:10:33 AM
Thank you Sarge and Mirror Image - I appreciate your advice. I am certainly going to get the Jochum performance that you recommended, Sarge, and the Wand performance that you, Mirror Image recommended. I have their recordings of the Bruckner 9 and enjoy each very much. Thanks!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 04, 2016, 04:34:56 PM
Quote from: mjmosca on July 04, 2016, 03:10:33 AM
Thank you Sarge and Mirror Image - I appreciate your advice. I am certainly going to get the Jochum performance that you recommended, Sarge, and the Wand performance that you, Mirror Image recommended. I have their recordings of the Bruckner 9 and enjoy each very much. Thanks!

You're welcome. I hope you enjoy Jochum more than I do. Not that it matters to me as I don't like either of Jochum's 5th performances (or any of his Bruckner recordings for that matter), but which Jochum did you end up getting? DG or EMI (errr....Warner)? I seem to recall many people preferring Jochum's DG performances to his later ones with the Dresden Staatskapelle.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 04, 2016, 08:08:34 PM
Here's a challenge for some of my fellow Brucknerians, what are your favorite performance(s) of Symphonies 1-9?

No. 1 -
No. 2 -
No. 3 -
No. 4 -
No. 5 -
No. 6 -
No. 7 -
No. 8 -
No. 9 -
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Autumn Leaves on July 04, 2016, 11:16:20 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 04, 2016, 08:08:34 PM
Here's a challenge for some of my fellow Brucknerians, what are your favorite performance(s) of Symphonies 1-9?

I'll give it a shot:

No. 1 - Karajan
No. 2 - Jochum (EMI)
No. 3 - Tintner
No. 4 - Bohm
No. 5 - Celibidache (EMI)
No. 6 - Karajan
No. 7 - Karajan (VPO)
No. 8 - Celibidache (EMI)
No. 9 - Jochum (EMI)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on July 05, 2016, 12:09:42 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 04, 2016, 08:08:34 PM
Here's a challenge for some of my fellow Brucknerians, what are your favorite performance(s) of Symphonies 1-9?

No. 00 -
No. 0 -
No. 1 - Skrowaczewski, Saarbrücken (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000I3YY/goodmusicguide-20)
No. 2 - Dausgaard, Swedish CO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0045W9BSG/goodmusicguide-20) | Stein, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000OPP9QG/goodmusicguide-20)
No. 3 - Celibidache, MPhil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG2Z/goodmusicguide-20) | Venzago, Bern SO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00BEMV0SO/goodmusicguide-20) |
No. 4 - Boehm, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000KP7JDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Kubelik, BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007WZXG2/goodmusicguide-20) | Honeck, Pittsburgh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00R4VU7J2/goodmusicguide-20)
No. 5 - Celibidache, MPhil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG31/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand, MPhil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FVQUX0/goodmusicguide-20) | Sinopoli, Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000058BH0/goodmusicguide-20)
No. 6 - Haitink, Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000LC4Y1S/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-no-80b-bruckner-6.html)) | Celibidache, MPhil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG32/goodmusicguide-20) | Norrington, SWR RSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CH3BRO/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/best-recordings-of-2010-almost-list.html))
No. 7 - Haitink, CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000VPNK5Q/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/05/b7-solti-haitink-bhm-co.html)) | HvK, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GKC/nectarandambr-20) | Boehm, BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000XPU5M0/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html))
No. 8 - Wand, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q66Y/goodmusicguide-20) | Boulez, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TL2N/goodmusicguide-20) | Blomstedt, Leipzig (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000MGAZ98/goodmusicguide-20)
No. 9 - Wand, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002VYE0E/goodmusicguide-20) | Dohnanyi, Philharmonia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0127PVLZI/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/08/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-9.html)) | Barenboim, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000SDZ/goodmusicguide-20)

Related & possibly of interest:
Bruckner: The Divine and the Beautiful (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/bruckner-divine-and-beautiful.html)
A Survey of Bruckner Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 05, 2016, 03:05:09 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 04, 2016, 08:08:34 PM
Here's a challenge for some of my fellow Brucknerians, what are your favorite performance(s) of Symphonies 1-9?


0:)Eugen Jochum 0:) for all 9, followed by Guenter Wand on RCA for the Sixth, and Simon Rattle and the Berlin Philharmonic with the completed Ninth.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2016, 03:25:57 AM
Quote from: Cato on July 05, 2016, 03:05:09 AM
0:)Eugen Jochum 0:) for all 9, followed by Guenter Wand on RCA for the Sixth, and Simon Rattle and the Berlin Philharmonic with the completed Ninth.

Interesting.

As for John's query, I am too neophytely to presume to have an opinion.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 05, 2016, 03:44:01 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 04, 2016, 08:08:34 PM
Here's a challenge for some of my fellow Brucknerians, what are your favorite performance(s) of Symphonies 1-9?


Why leave out Die Nullte?

No. 0 - BLUNIER/BEETHOVEN O BONN
           MAAZEL/SOBR

No. 1 - WAND/KÖLNER RSO (VER.1891)
           TINTNER/ROYAL SCOT (UNREVISED 1866)
           MAAZEL/SOBR (VER.1877)

No. 2 - BARENBOIM/BERLIN PHIL
           STEIN/VIENNA

No. 3 - CELIBIDACHE/MUNICH (VER.1889)
           SZELL/CLEVELAND (SCHALK 1890)
           NAGANO/DSO BERLIN (ORIG.VER.1873)

No. 4 - KARAJAN/BERLIN PHIL (EMI)
          JOCHUM/DRESDEN

No. 5 - DOHNÁNYI/CLEVELAND
           JOCHUM/CONCERTGBOUW

No. 6 - KLEMPERER/NEW PHILHARMONIA
           DAVIES/BRUCKNER O LINZ
           NORRINGTON/STUTTGART

No. 7 - CHAILLY/RSO BERLIN

No. 8 - MAAZEL/BERLIN PHIL
           CELIBIDACHE/MUNICH

No. 9 - GIULINI/VIENNA
           HAITINK/CONCERTGEBOUW (1981 recording)
           JOCHUM/DRESDEN
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2016, 03:55:16 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 05, 2016, 03:44:01 AM

Why leave out Die Nullte?

No. 0 - BLUNIER/BEETHOVEN O BONN

No. 1 - WAND/KÖLNER RSO (VERS.1891)
           TINTNER/ROYAL SCOT (UNREVISED 1866)
           MAAZEL/MUNICH (VER.1877)

No. 2 - BARENBOIM/BERLIN PHIL
           STEIN/VIENNA

No. 3 - CELIBIDACHE/MUNICH (VER.1889)
           SZELL/CLEVELAND (SCHALK 1890)
           NAGANO/DSO BERLIN (ORIG.VER.1873)

No. 4 - KARAJAN/BERLIN PHIL (EMI)
          JOCHUM/DRESDEN

No. 5 - DOHNÁNYI/CLEVELAND
           JOCHUM/CONCERTGBOUW

No. 6 - KLEMPERER/NEW PHILHARMONIA
           DAVIES/BRUCKNER O LINZ
           NORRINGTON/STUTTGART

No. 7 - CHAILLY/RSO BERLIN

No. 8 - MAAZEL/BERLIN PHIL
           CELIBIDACHE/MUNICH

No. 9 - GIULINI/VIENNA
           HAITINK/CONCERTGEBOUW (1981 recording)
           JOCHUM/DRESDEN

Most interesting, thank you.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 05, 2016, 04:23:08 AM
Quote from: Conor248 on July 04, 2016, 11:16:20 PM
No. 3 - Tintner

Tintner and the Scots are magnificent here (the original version of the D minor). I had a hard time choosing between his and Nagano's Third. In the end I flipped a coin  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Heck148 on July 05, 2016, 05:25:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 04, 2016, 08:08:34 PM
Here's a challenge for some of my fellow Brucknerians, what are your favorite performance(s) of Symphonies 1-9?

No. 3 - Solti/CSO, Barenboim/CSO
No. 4 - Walter/ColSO, Barenboim/CSO
No. 5 - Solti/CSO
No. 6 - Solti/CSO
No. 7 - von Matacic/CzPO, Solti/CSO, Walter/ColSO
No. 8 - Solti/CSO
No. 9 - Solti/CSO, Walter/ColSO, Barenboim/CSO, von Matacic/CzPO
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 05, 2016, 06:02:23 AM
Here are mine (for now):

No. 1 - Sawallisch/Bavarian State Orch., HvK/Berliners
No. 2 - Inbal/Franfurt RSO
No. 3 - Kubelik/Bavarian RSO
No. 4 - Bohm/Wiener Phil., Wand/Berliners
No. 5 - HvK/Berliners, Haitink/Bavarian RSO
No. 6 - Sawallisch/Bavarian State Orch., HvK/Berliners
No. 7 - Skrowaczewski/Saarbrucken RSO, HvK/Berliners (DG)
No. 8 - HvK/Berliners (DG), Wand/Berliners, Boulez/Wiener Phil.
No. 9 - Wand/Berliners, Giulini/Wiener Phil.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 05, 2016, 05:32:51 PM
I'm with Cato: Jochum's Dresden cycle rocks!!

For me:

1: Chailly
2: Jochum/Dresden
3: Nagano/DSO Berlin
    Kubelik/Bavarian Radio
4: Blomstedt/San Francisco (the San Franciscans really play their hearts out!)
5: Dohnanyi
6: Chailly
    Nagano/DSO Berlin
7: Blomstedt/Dresden
    Dohnanyi
8: Boulez
9: Kubelik/Bavarian Radio


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on July 06, 2016, 01:36:08 AM
2 - Stein VPO
3 - Sinopoli Dresden, Bohm VPO
4 - Bohm VPO
5 - Sinopoli Dresden
6 - Stein VPO, Gielen Baden-Baden
7 - Matacic CzPO
8 - Schuricht VPO, Furtwangler VPO, Bohm VPO
9 - Mehta VPO, Furtwangler BPO, Kubelik BRSO
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on July 06, 2016, 10:52:11 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 06, 2016, 12:53:24 AM
Speaking of Drasko: Did I get your Furtwangler Choces right? With him, it's always a bit tricky in Bruckner, given the many non-official and officialish recordings that are out there.

Yes, I think you did. The VPO 8th is the 17.10.1944 recording and the 9th is the only one there is, 7.10.1944 with BPO. I have them in those pastel DG Furtwangler boxes.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on July 06, 2016, 01:01:08 PM
Quote from: Draško on July 06, 2016, 10:52:11 AM
Yes, I think you did. The VPO 8th is the 17.10.1944 recording and the 9th is the only one there is, 7.10.1944 with BPO. I have them in those pastel DG Furtwangler boxes.

With the Ninth, it's easy: There's only one recording, as it turns out. If you have them in Universal boxes, then I'm right about the 8th, too... the '49 recording is on EMI and the '54 recording was never released on a major label.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 06, 2016, 01:17:28 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 05, 2016, 04:23:08 AM
Tintner and the Scots are magnificent here (the original version of the D minor). ...
Sarge

Yes, an excellent performance which makes a good case for the original version!

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on July 05, 2016, 05:32:51 PM
I'm with Cato: Jochum's Dresden cycle rocks!!


The usual wisdom calls the Dresden orchestra "raw" or less polished, but even if one hears such a nature in the orchestra, it lends a certain power to the cycle.

And not to be forgotten:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/e9EAAOSwYlJW2GoQ/s-l300.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 06, 2016, 08:27:25 PM
I don't know "00" well enough to suggest there might be a top contender among the select few who recorded it.

*** is the separator from one version to the other, no indicator of a particular quality.

- "0" : Marriner, Stuttgart Radio s. O. *** Haitink, RCOA
- 1: After 40 years of listening to it (one of my fav Bruckners), Haitink RCOA stil comes up on top. *** Neumann, Leipzig Gewandhaus.
- 2: Zender, SWF Baden-Baden *** Stein, WP   *** Karajan, BP
- 3: Böhm, WP, *** Nézet-Séguin (one of his few interesting interpretations), ***Kubelik BRSO,  ***Haitink RCOA
- 4: Barenboim CSO, *** Klemperer BRSO, ***Celibidache MPO, ***Kubelik BRSO, ***Rögner, BerlinRSO, ***Konwitschny, ***Suitner Berlin RSO
- 5: Klemperer NPO, ***Wand NDRSO, ***Suitner Berlin RSO
- 6: Klemperer (NPO), ***Bongartz, ***Stein WP, ***Keilberth BP, ***Rögner, ***Swoboda, ***Leitner (2 versions)
- 7: Blomstedt Dresden, ***Schuricht (The Hague or Berlin PO), ***Giulini or ***Böhm in Vienna
- 8: any of at least ten, including Jochum in Bamberg (1982), ***Haitink RCOA 1969 (yes!), ***Celibidache MPO (more than one), ***Klemperer NPO, ***Schuricht WP, ***Böhm WP (my favourite), ***Furtwängler BPO, etc. Even Prêtre, various Wands and Karajan WP (overrated but still very impressive)
- 9: Walter, ***Leitner, ***Klemperer, ***Mehta, ***Rögner, ***Kubelik (Berlin PO), Keilberth (Hamburg and Berlin) and many others.

I have hundreds of Bruckner discs in my collection, and my taste tends to vary. Generally speaking I favour swift, direct, abrasive, no-nonsense conducting, but occasionally welcome expansive, ruminative, morose performances as long as they don't stint on the power and gravitas.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 06, 2016, 10:03:18 PM
I don't do much comparative Bruckner listening. But I have heard several 9ths (and 6ths from the blind listening) and I would add a vote for the '81 Haitink. It's a phenomenal recording. In this, I agree whole-heartedly with Sarge.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on July 06, 2016, 11:12:41 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 06, 2016, 12:53:24 AM
No. 4 - Böhm WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000KP7JDQ/goodmusicguide-20) (x4)

Beautiful sounding as this is, I'm not sure this one has ever really grabbed me the way the Klemperer/BRSO does.   
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on July 06, 2016, 11:22:33 PM
Quote from: André on July 06, 2016, 08:27:25 PM
I don't know "00" well enough to suggest there might be a top contender among the select few who recorded it.

*** is the separator from one version to the other, no indicator of a particular quality.

- "0" : Marriner, Stuttgart Radio s. O. *** Haitink, RCOA
- 1: After 40 years of listening to it (one of my fav Bruckners), Haitink RCOA stil comes up on top. *** Neumann, Leipzig Gewandhaus.
- 2: Zander, Philharmonia *** Stein, WP   *** Karajan, BP
- 3: Böhm, WP, *** Nézet-Séguin (one of his few interesting interpretations), ***Kubelik BRSO,  ***Haitink RCOA
- 4: Barenboim CSO, *** Klemperer BRSO, ***Celibidache MPO, ***Kubelik BRSO, ***Rögner, BerlinRSO, ***Konwitschny, ***Suitner Berlin RSO
- 5: Klemperer NPO, ***Wand NDRSO, ***Suitner Berlin RSO
- 6: Klemperer (NPO), ***Bongartz, ***Stein WP, ***Rögner, ***Swoboda
- 7: Blomstedt Dresden, ***Schuricht (The Hague or Berlin PO), ***Giulini or ***Böhm in Vienna
- 8: any of at least ten, including Jochum in Bamberg (1982), ***Haitink RCOA 1969 (yes!), ***Celibidache MPO (more than one), ***Klemperer NPO, ***Schuricht WP, ***Böhm WP (my favourite), ***Furtwängler BPO, etc. Even Prêtre, various Wands and Karajan WP (overrated but still very impressive)
- 9: Walter, ***Klemperer, ***Mehta, ***Rögner, ***Kubelik (Berlin PO), and many others.

I have hundreds of Bruckner discs in my collection, and my taste tends to vary. Generally speaking I favour swift, direct, abrasive, no-nonsense conducting, but occasionally welcome expansive, ruminative, morose performances as long as they don't stint on the power and gravitas.

So as not to skew the tally, could I ask you to indicate THREE performances per symphony (where you have listed more) that you'd particularly want counted/think are particularly special? (i.e. as above)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on July 07, 2016, 12:05:47 AM
Tally-time (moved down):

No. 00 - Inbal/Frankfurt (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009J71/goodmusicguide-20)


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61GHeyUR52L._SL500_SX300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009J71/nectarandambr-20)


No. 0 - Blunier B.O.Bonn (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004PKO5MA/goodmusicguide-20) |  Marriner/Stuttgart (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001VHB/goodmusicguide-20) |  Haitink/RCO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0014NIDPG/goodmusicguide-20) | Skrowaczewski Saarbrücken (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008HE50/goodmusicguide-20)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51kl-0IqWUL.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004PKO5MA/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001VHB.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001VHB/nectarandambr-20)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51wsAV2GuCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0014NIDPG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00008HE50.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008HE50/nectarandambr-20)


No. 1 - HvK/Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E33Y/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Haitink/RCO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021CF848/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Chailly  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3O5/goodmusicguide-20)| Sawallisch/BStO  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000599M/goodmusicguide-20)| Tintner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SYFQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Maazel BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00475E136/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand/Cologne (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0042U2HLY/goodmusicguide-20) | Skrowaczewski Saarbrücken (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000I3YY/goodmusicguide-20) | Neumann (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000669W6/goodmusicguide-20)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00ATRPHFM.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E33Y/nectarandambr-20)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1iaJFh81mL._SX522_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021CF848/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000E3O5.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3O5/nectarandambr-20)(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/204/2040243.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000599M/nectarandambr-20)


No. 2 - Stein, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000OPP9QG/goodmusicguide-20) (x4)| Jochum/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHW2/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Dausgaard Swedish CO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0045W9BSG/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000HYAX/goodmusicguide-20) | Inbal/Frankfurt  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E8QH/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/Berlin  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E33Z/goodmusicguide-20) | Suitner/Tokyo (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00CH86AGG/goodmusicguide-20)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000OPP9QG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000OPP9QG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005QHW2.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHW2/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0045W9BSG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0045W9BSG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000HYAX.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000HYAX/nectarandambr-20)


No. 3 - Kubelik BRSO Sony (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0018DO1Z8/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) {Audite (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CSUMQW/goodmusicguide-20)} | Nagano/DSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00K1Q3VNG/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Celibidache MPhil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG2Z/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Böhm/WPh (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002GQ74IC/goodmusicguide-20)  | Venzago, Bern SO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00BEMV0SO/goodmusicguide-20) | Szell/ClevO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B009GN76Y0/goodmusicguide-20) | Tintner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003Q40K/goodmusicguide-20) | Sinopoli/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4RL/goodmusicguide-20) | Nezet-Seguin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00LYJING4/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand/Cologne (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026PKF/goodmusicguide-20)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007WZXFS.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007WZXFS/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000CSUMQW.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CSUMQW/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00K1Q3VNG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00K1Q3VNG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG2Z.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG2Z/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B002GQ74IC.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002GQ74IC/nectarandambr-20)


No. 4 - Böhm WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000KP7JDQ/goodmusicguide-20) (x4) | Kubelik, BRSO (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007WZXG2/goodmusicguide-20) | Honeck, Pittsburgh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00R4VU7J2/goodmusicguide-20) | Blomstedt/SFSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B014I2Y9E8/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000247D1/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/Berlin/EMI (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002S7Z/goodmusicguide-20) | Jochum Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHW2/goodmusicguide-20)  | Klemperer/BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000AF4S/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim/CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z1AP/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim/CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z1AP/goodmusicguide-20)  | Suitner/StaKapB (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B01G4DZHQ8/goodmusicguide-20) | B00004YL94/CzPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z1AP/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim/CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00ET820BQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Ormandy/Philadelphia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00ET820BQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Herrreweghe (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00COU078Y/goodmusicguide-20) (Review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/05/dip-your-ears-no-60.html))


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000KP7JDQ.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000KP7JDQ/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007WZXG2.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007WZXG2/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00R4VU7J2.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00R4VU7J2/nectarandambr-20)(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/984/MI0000984732.jpg?partner=allrovi.com) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B014I2Y9E8/nectarandambr-20)


No. 5 - Dohnanyi/ClevO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4X1/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) | Celibidache MPhil (x2)  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG31/goodmusicguide-20) | Sinopoli, Dresden (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000058BH0/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand, Cologne (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063X5P/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand, NDRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B01HLDYQJ4/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00442M0MQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Suitner/StakapB (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035NG/goodmusicguide-20) | Jochum/RCO/Philips (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000V6S8U2/goodmusicguide-20) {December 1986 (http://amzn.to/29mWQU0)} | Klemperer/NewPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B008YKRRH2/goodmusicguide-20)  | Harnoncourt/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00M3J2S6A/goodmusicguide-20)


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1gNUxebghL._SX522_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4X1/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG31.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG31/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000058BH0.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000058BH0/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000063X5P.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063X5P/nectarandambr-20)


No. 6 - Norrington, SWR RSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CH3BRO/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/best-recordings-of-2010-almost-list.html)) | HvK/Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CH3BRO/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Stein/WPh  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007MR298/goodmusicguide-20)(x2) | Klemperer (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000AF1MU/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Haitink Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000LC4Y1S/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-no-80b-bruckner-6.html)) | Sawallisch/BStO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000596U/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Celibidache, MPhil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG32/goodmusicguide-20) | Nagano/DSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0063JALWO/goodmusicguide-20) | D.R.Davies (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001BWQW6C/goodmusicguide-20) | Gielen/Baden-Baden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002N48WQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Bongartz/Lpzg (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035TT/goodmusicguide-20) | Keilberth/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007X6SYE8/goodmusicguide-20) 


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001CH3BRO.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CH3BRO/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001CH3BRO.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CH3BRO/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007MR298.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007MR298/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000AF1MU.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000AF1MU/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000LC4Y1S.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000LC4Y1S/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000596U.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000596U/nectarandambr-20)


No. 7 - HvK/Vienna (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GKC/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Blomstedt/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003RECFFY/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Chailly/RSO Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024WGM/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | HvK/Berlin/EMI (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009NDKV4/goodmusicguide-20) {DG (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3F6/goodmusicguide-20)} | Haitink CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000VPNK5Q/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/05/b7-solti-haitink-bhm-co.html)) | Böhm, BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000XPU5M0/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html)) | Böhm, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3HJ/goodmusicguide-20)  | Dohnanyi/ClevO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4OS/goodmusicguide-20) | Skrowaczewski Saarbrücken (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0043VMP64/goodmusicguide-20) | Matacic/CzechPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001NPU6U/goodmusicguide-20) | Schuricht/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00NBSYLJE/goodmusicguide-20) | Herrreweghe (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002I745O/goodmusicguide-20) (Review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/11/dip-your-ears-no-17.html))


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GKC.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GKC/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003RECFFY.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003RECFFY/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000024WGM.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024WGM/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0009NDKV4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009NDKV4/nectarandambr-20)


No. 8 - Wand, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q66Y/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Boulez, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TL2N/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Celibidache, MPhil, EMI (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG33/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Schuricht/VPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0079J26S4/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) |Böhm/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000025MOX/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Blomstedt, Leipzig (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000MGAZ98/goodmusicguide-20) | Maazel/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000040OCD/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3F7/goodmusicguide-20) |  Furtwängler/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002J53H4/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/RCO/69 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009A41VU/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/RCO/81 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E2SV/goodmusicguide-20) | Chailly (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000665EV/goodmusicguide-20) | Thielemann/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003N843T0/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/notes-from-2012-dresden-music-festival_26.html))


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005Q66Y.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q66Y/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004TL2N.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TL2N/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG33.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG33/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0079J26S4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0079J26S4/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000025MOX.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000025MOX/nectarandambr-20)


No. 9 - Kubelik/BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005N556/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Wand, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002VYE0E/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Giulini, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GAM/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Jochum/Dresden (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SRG7/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink, RCO 81 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E2LS/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000SDZ/goodmusicguide-20) | Dohnanyi, Philharmonia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0127PVLZI/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/08/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-9.html)) | Furtwängler/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MWYW/goodmusicguide-20) | Mehta/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005N56Z/goodmusicguide-20)  | Walter (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002J58XI/goodmusicguide-20) | Rögner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00LY9WCHK/goodmusicguide-20) | Leitner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00007BHHP/goodmusicguide-20) | Bernstein/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0053MFES8/goodmusicguide-20) | Rattle/Complete (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007O3QC8K/goodmusicguide-20) 


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005N556.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005N556/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0002VYE0E.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002VYE0E/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GAM.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GAM/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004SRG7.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SRG7/nectarandambr-20)



Notes:
Sawallisch is not w/BRSO but BStO in both instances. Berlin and Munich Orchestras dominate w/20 resp. 16 mentions if I counted right.
André mentioned a Zander/2 which I am not aware of; only his 5th... The Bamberg Jochum 8 seems never to have made it onto CD (and evenLP or DVD are unavailable) or else is simply not available.

Very little consensus. Assumed editorial liberties by ignoring the "Chicago-for-everything" recommendation.  Includes Drasko's choices: Speaking of Drasko: Did I get your Furtwangler Choces right? With him, it's always a bit tricky in Bruckner, given the many non-official and officialish recordings that are out there.

Conductors with Multiple Mentions (=/>4):


1 - HvK     : IIIIIIIIII 10 -
1 - Böhm    : IIIIIIIIII 10 -
1 - Haitink : IIIIIIIIII 10 ˄˄˄
4 - Wand    : IIIIIIIII 9 (˅)
5 - Kubelik : IIIIIIII 8 ˅
6 - Celi    : IIIIIII 7 ˅˅
7 - Jochum  : IIIIII 6 -
7 - Stein   : IIIIII 6 -
9 - Dohnanyi: IIIII 5 -
10 - Chailly: IIII 4 (New)


Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on July 07, 2016, 04:28:16 AM
Kubelik 9th with the Berlin Philharmonic? Is this one commercially available?

Nice catch. I mistakenly just shoved it to the BRSO 9th, not thinking that there is (albeit not commercially available) a 1984 Berlin Phil performance.

[forgot to post this; by now Andre has answered it.]
Quote from: Marc on July 07, 2016, 10:19:40 AM
Bonus:
Study Symphony: Inbal/Frankfurt
Nullified Symphony: Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken
Quote from: amw on July 07, 2016, 09:54:27 PM
I am weird

Both accounted for in the tally above.

Not THAT weird, amw. Both your Herreweghe-Choices were close ones for me (hence able to supply a review for both). And while I didn't count your Jochum/Bamberg, because it's too obscure a recording, your choices were right along informed Bruckneriana-lines, no?

In the "Bruckner Conductor Pantheon" I'm a little surprised how high Kubelik ranks, despite not being particularly known as a Bruckner conductor... and despite being the only one in the top 7 mentions that doesn't have a Bruckner Symphony Cycle, incomplete or not. Oh, wait... I'm overlooking Böhm... Could one cobble a cycle together from his Bruckner recordings? Universal sits on 3, 4, 7, 8... there is 5th of his (Dresden, EMI / Profil et al.) but no 6 or 9. Why'd he never have conducted/recorded that?
The next surprise perhaps Stein, who on account of two old but golden Bruckner recordings, makes it into the phalanx of top Bruckner conductors.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on July 07, 2016, 12:38:09 AM
Quote from: André on July 06, 2016, 08:27:25 PM
Generally speaking I favour swift, direct, abrasive, no-nonsense conducting

Have you heard any of Kegel's Bruckner?  Certainly abrasive, but also quite exciting.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 07, 2016, 04:28:16 AM
Quote from: André on July 06, 2016, 08:27:25 PM***Kubelik (Berlin PO),

Kubelik 9th with the Berlin Philharmonic? Is this one commercially available?

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 07, 2016, 07:46:28 AM
Quote from: Daverz on July 07, 2016, 12:38:09 AM
Have you heard any of Kegel's Bruckner?  Certainly abrasive, but also quite exciting.

Every Kegel performance is worth having. A great Bruckner conductor.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 07, 2016, 07:47:19 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on July 07, 2016, 04:28:16 AM
Kubelik 9th with the Berlin Philharmonic? Is this one commercially available?

From 09/1984, available on various labels (see John Berky's web site).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 07, 2016, 07:53:58 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 06, 2016, 11:22:33 PM
So as not to skew the tally, could I ask you to indicate THREE performances per symphony (where you have listed more) that you'd particularly want counted/think are particularly special? (i.e. as above)

I have bolded them. And added two other 6th, Keilberth and Leitner as well as Keilberth's and Leitner's ninth which I had inadvertently left out.

Edit: I forgot Schuricht in the 9th (WP, on EMI). A great interpretation.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 07, 2016, 09:00:51 AM
Kubelik's BP 9: I don't think it's available commercially, although it has been issued on cd. Mine is a copy a friend sent me. It's a beautiful interpretation, unaffected and unexaggerated, in better sound than the BRSO widely available on Orfeo.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on July 07, 2016, 10:19:40 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 04, 2016, 08:08:34 PM
Here's a challenge for some of my fellow Brucknerians, what are your favorite performance(s) of Symphonies 1-9?

No. 1 - Haitink/Concertgebouw
No. 2 - Suitner/Tokyo (live)
No. 3 - Wand/Köln
No. 4 - Ormandy/Philadelphia
No. 5 - Harnoncourt/Wiener Phil
No. 6 - Haitink/Dresden (live)
No. 7 - Chailly/Berlin RSO
No. 8 - Haitink/Concertgebouw (1981)
No. 9 - Bernstein/Wiener Phil ['sentimental choice']

Bonus:
Study Symphony: Inbal/Frankfurt
Nullified Symphony: Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on July 07, 2016, 09:54:27 PM
4 - Herreweghe
5 - Dohnanyi/Cleveland
6 - Sawallisch/Orfeo or Norrington/Stuttgart
7 - Herreweghe I guess
8 - Chailly/RCO + or - Jochum/Bamberg
9 - Rattle

I am weird
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Autumn Leaves on July 07, 2016, 10:56:06 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 05, 2016, 04:23:08 AM
Tintner and the Scots are magnificent here (the original version of the D minor).
Sarge

For sure :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 08, 2016, 02:09:13 AM
I'd like to add Thielemann's 8th (w/ the Staatskapelle) to my list of favorites for this symphony. So mark this one up on your tally board, Jens. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on July 08, 2016, 04:11:47 AM
Quote from: amw on July 07, 2016, 09:54:27 PM
9 - Rattle
This is the completed finale version?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on July 08, 2016, 04:25:26 AM
Indeed.

To be fair I haven't done a ton of comparative listening with Bruckner except the 6th (obviously). I have also heard Karajan, Giulini (who is also fairly good), Bernstein and maybe another one. But I like Rattle, or at least the Berlin Phil, and I like the finale, or at least the parts of it written by Bruckner. I like that it doesn't end with the Adagio, which has never convinced me.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 08, 2016, 11:34:15 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 05, 2016, 03:44:01 AM

No. 9 -
           HAITINK/CONCERTGEBOUW (1981 recording)

Quote from: Marc on July 07, 2016, 10:19:40 AM

No. 8 - Haitink/Concertgebouw (1981)

I'm glad to see mention of these 2 Haitinks. I think they're quite hard to find nowadays, but the 8th is excellent and the 9th is one of the very best. I have 'em together in an LP box.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on July 09, 2016, 11:32:12 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 08, 2016, 11:34:15 AM
I'm glad to see mention of these 2 Haitinks. I think they're quite hard to find nowadays, but the 8th is excellent and the 9th is one of the very best. I have 'em together in an LP box.

The 9th is available again, in the Haitink boxset The Philips Years.

https://www.amazon.com/Haitink-Philips-Years-20-CD/dp/B00DI5BS8M/?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideco

Strangely enough, they picked the 1969 performance of No 8 for this selection. Not that this one is 'bad', but I think that Haitink's (and Bruckner's) fans would have been more pleased with the OOP 1981 recording. The conductor's broadened insight in this later recording works much better for this work IMO, as does his 1995 recording with the Wiener Philharmoniker.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 10, 2016, 06:24:01 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 07, 2016, 12:05:47 AM
Tally-time (moved down):

No. 00 - Inbal/Frankfurt (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009J71/goodmusicguide-20)


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61GHeyUR52L._SL500_SX300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009J71/nectarandambr-20)


No. 0 - Blunier B.O.Bonn (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004PKO5MA/goodmusicguide-20) |  Marriner/Stuttgart (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001VHB/goodmusicguide-20) |  Haitink/RCO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0014NIDPG/goodmusicguide-20) | Skrowaczewski Saarbrücken (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008HE50/goodmusicguide-20)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51kl-0IqWUL.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004PKO5MA/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001VHB.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001VHB/nectarandambr-20)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51wsAV2GuCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0014NIDPG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00008HE50.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008HE50/nectarandambr-20)


No. 1 - HvK/Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E33Y/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Haitink/RCO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021CF848/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Chailly  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3O5/goodmusicguide-20)| Sawallisch/BStO  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000599M/goodmusicguide-20)| Tintner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SYFQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Maazel BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00475E136/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand/Cologne (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0042U2HLY/goodmusicguide-20) | Skrowaczewski Saarbrücken (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000I3YY/goodmusicguide-20) | Neumann (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000669W6/goodmusicguide-20)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00ATRPHFM.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E33Y/nectarandambr-20)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1iaJFh81mL._SX522_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021CF848/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000E3O5.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3O5/nectarandambr-20)(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/204/2040243.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000599M/nectarandambr-20)


No. 2 - Stein, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000OPP9QG/goodmusicguide-20) (x4)| Jochum/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHW2/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Dausgaard Swedish CO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0045W9BSG/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000HYAX/goodmusicguide-20) | Inbal/Frankfurt  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E8QH/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/Berlin  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E33Z/goodmusicguide-20) | Suitner/Tokyo (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00CH86AGG/goodmusicguide-20)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000OPP9QG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000OPP9QG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005QHW2.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHW2/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0045W9BSG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0045W9BSG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000HYAX.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000HYAX/nectarandambr-20)


No. 3 - Kubelik BRSO Sony (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0018DO1Z8/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) {Audite (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CSUMQW/goodmusicguide-20)} | Nagano/DSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00K1Q3VNG/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Celibidache MPhil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG2Z/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Böhm/WPh (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002GQ74IC/goodmusicguide-20)  | Venzago, Bern SO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00BEMV0SO/goodmusicguide-20) | Szell/ClevO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B009GN76Y0/goodmusicguide-20) | Tintner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003Q40K/goodmusicguide-20) | Sinopoli/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4RL/goodmusicguide-20) | Nezet-Seguin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00LYJING4/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand/Cologne (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026PKF/goodmusicguide-20)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007WZXFS.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007WZXFS/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000CSUMQW.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CSUMQW/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00K1Q3VNG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00K1Q3VNG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG2Z.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG2Z/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B002GQ74IC.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002GQ74IC/nectarandambr-20)


No. 4 - Böhm WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000KP7JDQ/goodmusicguide-20) (x4) | Kubelik, BRSO (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007WZXG2/goodmusicguide-20) | Honeck, Pittsburgh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00R4VU7J2/goodmusicguide-20) | Blomstedt/SFSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B014I2Y9E8/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000247D1/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/Berlin/EMI (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002S7Z/goodmusicguide-20) | Jochum Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHW2/goodmusicguide-20)  | Klemperer/BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000AF4S/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim/CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z1AP/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim/CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z1AP/goodmusicguide-20)  | Suitner/StaKapB (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B01G4DZHQ8/goodmusicguide-20) | B00004YL94/CzPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z1AP/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim/CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00ET820BQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Ormandy/Philadelphia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00ET820BQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Herrreweghe (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00COU078Y/goodmusicguide-20) (Review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/05/dip-your-ears-no-60.html))


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000KP7JDQ.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000KP7JDQ/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007WZXG2.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007WZXG2/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00R4VU7J2.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00R4VU7J2/nectarandambr-20)(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/984/MI0000984732.jpg?partner=allrovi.com) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B014I2Y9E8/nectarandambr-20)


No. 5 - Dohnanyi/ClevO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4X1/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) | Celibidache MPhil (x2)  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG31/goodmusicguide-20) | Sinopoli, Dresden (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000058BH0/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand, Cologne (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063X5P/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand, NDRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B01HLDYQJ4/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00442M0MQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Suitner/StakapB (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035NG/goodmusicguide-20) | Jochum/RCO/Philips (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000V6S8U2/goodmusicguide-20) {December 1986 (http://amzn.to/29mWQU0)} | Klemperer/NewPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B008YKRRH2/goodmusicguide-20)  | Harnoncourt/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00M3J2S6A/goodmusicguide-20)


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1gNUxebghL._SX522_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4X1/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG31.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG31/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000058BH0.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000058BH0/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000063X5P.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063X5P/nectarandambr-20)


No. 6 - Norrington, SWR RSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CH3BRO/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/best-recordings-of-2010-almost-list.html)) | HvK/Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CH3BRO/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Stein/WPh  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007MR298/goodmusicguide-20)(x2) | Klemperer (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000AF1MU/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Haitink Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000LC4Y1S/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-no-80b-bruckner-6.html)) | Sawallisch/BStO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000596U/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Celibidache, MPhil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG32/goodmusicguide-20) | Nagano/DSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0063JALWO/goodmusicguide-20) | D.R.Davies (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001BWQW6C/goodmusicguide-20) | Gielen/Baden-Baden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002N48WQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Bongartz/Lpzg (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035TT/goodmusicguide-20) | Keilberth/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007X6SYE8/goodmusicguide-20) 


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001CH3BRO.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CH3BRO/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001CH3BRO.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CH3BRO/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007MR298.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007MR298/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000AF1MU.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000AF1MU/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000LC4Y1S.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000LC4Y1S/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000596U.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000596U/nectarandambr-20)


No. 7 - HvK/Vienna (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GKC/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Blomstedt/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003RECFFY/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Chailly/RSO Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024WGM/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | HvK/Berlin/EMI (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009NDKV4/goodmusicguide-20) {DG (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3F6/goodmusicguide-20)} | Haitink CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000VPNK5Q/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/05/b7-solti-haitink-bhm-co.html)) | Böhm, BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000XPU5M0/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html)) | Böhm, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3HJ/goodmusicguide-20)  | Dohnanyi/ClevO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4OS/goodmusicguide-20) | Skrowaczewski Saarbrücken (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0043VMP64/goodmusicguide-20) | Matacic/CzechPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001NPU6U/goodmusicguide-20) | Schuricht/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00NBSYLJE/goodmusicguide-20) | Herrreweghe (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002I745O/goodmusicguide-20) (Review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/11/dip-your-ears-no-17.html))


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GKC.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GKC/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003RECFFY.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003RECFFY/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000024WGM.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024WGM/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0009NDKV4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009NDKV4/nectarandambr-20)


No. 8 - Wand, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q66Y/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Boulez, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TL2N/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Celibidache, MPhil, EMI (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG33/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Schuricht/VPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0079J26S4/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) |Böhm/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000025MOX/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Blomstedt, Leipzig (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000MGAZ98/goodmusicguide-20) | Maazel/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000040OCD/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3F7/goodmusicguide-20) |  Furtwängler/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002J53H4/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/RCO/69 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009A41VU/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/RCO/81 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E2SV/goodmusicguide-20) | Chailly (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000665EV/goodmusicguide-20) | Thielemann/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003N843T0/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/notes-from-2012-dresden-music-festival_26.html))


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005Q66Y.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q66Y/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004TL2N.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TL2N/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG33.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG33/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0079J26S4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0079J26S4/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000025MOX.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000025MOX/nectarandambr-20)


No. 9 - Kubelik/BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005N556/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Wand, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002VYE0E/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Giulini, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GAM/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Jochum/Dresden (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SRG7/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink, RCO 81 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E2LS/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000SDZ/goodmusicguide-20) | Dohnanyi, Philharmonia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0127PVLZI/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/08/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-9.html)) | Furtwängler/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MWYW/goodmusicguide-20) | Mehta/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005N56Z/goodmusicguide-20)  | Walter (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002J58XI/goodmusicguide-20) | Rögner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00LY9WCHK/goodmusicguide-20) | Leitner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00007BHHP/goodmusicguide-20) | Bernstein/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0053MFES8/goodmusicguide-20) | Rattle/Complete (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007O3QC8K/goodmusicguide-20) 


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005N556.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005N556/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0002VYE0E.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002VYE0E/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GAM.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GAM/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004SRG7.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SRG7/nectarandambr-20)



Notes:
Sawallisch is not w/BRSO but BStO in both instances. Berlin and Munich Orchestras dominate w/20 resp. 16 mentions if I counted right.
André mentioned a Zander/2 which I am not aware of; only his 5th... The Bamberg Jochum 8 seems never to have made it onto CD (and evenLP or DVD are unavailable) or else is simply not available.

Very little consensus. Assumed editorial liberties by ignoring the "Chicago-for-everything" recommendation.  Includes Drasko's choices: Speaking of Drasko: Did I get your Furtwangler Choces right? With him, it's always a bit tricky in Bruckner, given the many non-official and officialish recordings that are out there.

Conductors with Multiple Mentions (=/>4):


1 - HvK     : IIIIIIIIII 10 -
1 - Böhm    : IIIIIIIIII 10 -
1 - Haitink : IIIIIIIIII 10 ˄˄˄
4 - Wand    : IIIIIIIII 9 (˅)
5 - Kubelik : IIIIIIII 8 ˅
6 - Celi    : IIIIIII 7 ˅˅
7 - Jochum  : IIIIII 6 -
7 - Stein   : IIIIII 6 -
9 - Dohnanyi: IIIII 5 -
10 - Chailly: IIII 4 (New)


Very nice post, Jens! Great job, sir.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 10, 2016, 01:33:26 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 10, 2016, 06:24:01 AM
Very nice post, Jens! Great job, sir.

Oh I need to add to this list! But it's already filled with great ones.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 10, 2016, 04:07:03 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 10, 2016, 01:33:26 PM
Oh I need to add to this list! But it's already filled with great ones.

Yes! Show us your list! Inquiring minds want to know. ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 10, 2016, 05:28:44 PM
Re: the 2nd from my list. It's by Zender (Hans), not Zander (Benjamin). And it's the SWF Baden-Baden, not the Philharmonia. My mistake, sorry if I misled. Zender recorded the 2nd, Zander the 5th. I guess I was mixed up with the Mahlers recorded by Zander, whch I recently listened to  ::)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51vNh4RFiKL._SX355_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5170mGgir-L._SL500_SX355_.jpg)

Apparently it's unavailable on Amazon.com (USA), but available on Amazon.de (Germany)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 10, 2016, 06:58:52 PM
Quote from: André on July 10, 2016, 05:28:44 PM
Re: the 2nd from my list. It's by Zender (Hans), not Zander (Benjamin). And it's the SWF Baden-Baden, not the Philharmonia. My mistake, sorry if I misled. Zender recorded the 2nd, Zander the 5th. I guess I was mixed up with the Mahlers recorded by Zander, whch I recently listened to  ::)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51vNh4RFiKL._SX355_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5170mGgir-L._SL500_SX355_.jpg)

Apparently it's unavailable on Amazon.com (USA), but available on Amazon.de (Germany)

How is this Zender performance, Andre?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on July 10, 2016, 08:50:34 PM
Some votes:

1: Neumann/Leipzig
2: Stein; Sieghart/Bruckner Linz
3: Schuricht/EMI
4: Klemperer/BRSO; Karajan/EMI
5: Karajan (surprised no votes for it)
6: Celibidache/EMI (come on, this is the blind listening test winner!)
7: Karajan/EMI; Rosbaud
9: Schuricht/EMI
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on July 11, 2016, 01:48:22 AM
Pic help:

I have the Rosbaud Bruckner 7 on this release with some other historical Bruckner:

[asin]B001E1DHFO[/asin]

Much, much better sounding than the Vox CD.

Schuricht's EMI 3, 8 and 9 now in a box set:

[asin]B008I15774[/asin]





Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on July 11, 2016, 03:56:21 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 11, 2016, 01:10:53 AM
Thanks for the positive feedback! Much appreciated.

Yes, great job! Thanks for the effort. Love lists.

few errors though: there are two separate links for Nezet-Seguin 3, same with Barenboim CSO 4, both link and picture for Karajan 6th lead to Norrington, link for Rosbaud 7 leads to his Mahler 7.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 11, 2016, 05:30:08 AM
The Jochum Bamberg 8 is available through the Downloads section of John Berky's Web site (download of the month, August 2009). It's a concert from June 1982. There is another Jochum Bamberg 8, this time from December of the same year (1982). IIRC one of the two has slightly more punch, but IMO they are among the very best ever done.

I didn't check if the link still works.

https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/August09/ (https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/August09/)


The Zender 2nd is my favourite performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2016, 07:19:24 AM
Quote from: Daverz on July 10, 2016, 08:50:34 PM
5: Karajan (surprised no votes for it)

(Raises hand) Ummm...I picked HvK's 5th as a favorite:

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 05, 2016, 06:02:23 AM
Here are mine (for now):

No. 1 - Sawallisch/Bavarian State Orch., HvK/Berliners
No. 2 - Inbal/Franfurt RSO
No. 3 - Kubelik/Bavarian RSO
No. 4 - Bohm/Wiener Phil., Wand/Berliners
No. 5 - HvK/Berliners, Haitink/Bavarian RSO
No. 6 - Sawallisch/Bavarian State Orch., HvK/Berliners
No. 7 - Skrowaczewski/Saarbrucken RSO, HvK/Berliners (DG)
No. 8 - HvK/Berliners (DG), Wand/Berliners, Boulez/Wiener Phil.
No. 9 - Wand/Berliners, Giulini/Wiener Phil.

One reason why I believe Karajan's 5th is such a great performance, besides all of the obvious characteristics that dominate his Bruckner performances, is the way he stretched out the Adagio, which was unbelievable and completely convincing.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on July 11, 2016, 09:20:40 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 11, 2016, 01:10:53 AM
[...]
Daverz, may I question your Sieghart/2 choice?!? Are you sure it's not Eichhorn that you are thinking about?[...]

Yeah, I thought the same thing.
Actually, for me, it was a toss between Eichhorn 2 (Erstfassung) & Suitner's Tokyo performance.
Eicchorn also made a convincing recording of no 7 btw.
It's a pity that the Linz/Eichhorn/Sieghart box has become officially OOP, despite some quite expensive offerings on the internet.
Too expensive for me anyway.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on July 11, 2016, 09:25:38 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 11, 2016, 07:19:24 AM
(Raises hand) Ummm...I picked HvK's 5th as a favorite:

One reason why I believe Karajan's 5th is such a great performance, besides all of the obvious characteristics that dominate his Bruckner performances, is the way he stretched out the Adagio, which was unbelievable and completely convincing.

I ordered the Karajan boxset this weekend.
So far I only knew his 6th, which is good, but nothing really special IMHO.

Jochum/Dresden is also quite slow in the Adagio 5, and I adore that one.
(Listening right now.)

Conclusion: I picked my favourites a few days ago, BUT there is so much to love.
Next year my list could be very different...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2016, 09:31:52 AM
Quote from: Marc on July 11, 2016, 09:25:38 AM
I ordered the Karajan boxset this weekend.
So far I only knew his 6th, which is good, but nothing really special IMHO.

Jochum/Dresden is also quite slow in the Adagio 5, and I adore that one.
(Listening right now.)

Conclusion: I picked my favourites a few days ago, BUT there is so much to love.
Next year my list could be very different...

Karajan's 6th isn't great, but, like you said, is plenty good enough. This is a difficult symphony to pull off well anyway. It's so unusual in comparison with the others.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on July 11, 2016, 09:51:01 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 11, 2016, 09:31:52 AM
Karajan's 6th isn't great, but, like you said, is plenty good enough. This is a difficult symphony to pull off well anyway. It's so unusual in comparison with the others.

I agree.
Yet, it was one of my 'instant' Bruckner favourites after I first listened to it. The same happened with 1 and 4.

After that, I quickly lost my heart to no 9 (thanks to a very driven live performance by Reinbert de Leeuw and a Dutch youth orchestra).

Then Haitink (Concertgebouw 1981, Philips) convinced me of no 8.
And Jochum/Dresden of no 5.
And I convinced myself of no 2. :) I think it's probably Bruckner's most underrated symphony.

The nullified and study symphony are quite nice, too. The latter reminded me a lot of Schumann when I first heard it.
But I don't play them that often, despite the fact that I certainly think that 'Zero' deserves better critics than it generally achieves.

Nos 3 & 7 are still a bit of a problem... when I was just 20+ years of age, I listened to 3 & 4 from my dad's vinyl collection (forgot the orchestras/conductors, sorry to say).
I immediately liked 4, but felt completely lost when listening to the Third.
The same with no 7, which I first heard live, with a girlfriend (not THE girlfriend (to my regret back then), but a very good friend nevertheless ;)), and we both said after the concert: guess we'll never be Bruckner fans then.

I know she's still not Anton's greatest fan, but since I grew older I personally grew more and more attached to his music.

3 & 7 are still 'bubbling under' though.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 11, 2016, 10:05:40 AM
Quote from: Marc on July 11, 2016, 09:25:38 AM
I ordered the Karajan boxset this weekend.
So far I only knew his 6th, which is good, but nothing really special IMHO.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 11, 2016, 09:31:52 AM
Karajan's 6th isn't great, but, like you said, is plenty good enough. This is a difficult symphony to pull off well anyway. It's so unusual in comparison with the others.

When I ran the Bruckner Death Match (Wand's box vs Karajan's), Karajan just edged out Wand in the Sixth but with the caveat that I wouldn't include either as a favorite. So, yeah, in general, I agree with you guys.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2016, 10:15:34 AM
Parenthetically ... two and a half years ago I ordered a used copy of the Chailly/RSO Berlin Seventh.

I blush to say that I only noticed today that the wrong disc was in the case:  HvK/Berliner Philharmoniker (which is, of course, a redundancy, as I have the HvK Bruckner box).

Gosh, do I feel silly.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on July 11, 2016, 10:17:37 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2016, 10:15:34 AM
Parenthetically ... two and a half years ago I ordered a used copy of the Chailly/RSO Berlin Seventh.

I blush to say that I only noticed today that the wrong disc was in the case:  HvK/Berliner Philharmoniker (which is, of course, a redundancy, as I have the HvK Bruckner box).

Gosh, do I feel silly.

(*chortle*)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2016, 10:23:27 AM
Quote from: Marc on July 11, 2016, 10:17:37 AM
(*chortle*)

And I mean ... Saturday I pull the disc from the jewel case, and ... I see the Deutsche Grammaphon label, not the London/Decca label.  So the imposture was hiding in plain sight.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on July 11, 2016, 10:27:46 AM
Quote from: André on July 11, 2016, 05:30:08 AM
The Jochum Bamberg 8 is available through the Downloads section of John Berky's Web site (download of the month, August 2009). It's a concert from June 1982. There is another Jochum Bamberg 8, this time from December of the same year (1982). IIRC one of the two has slightly more punch, but IMO they are among the very best ever done.

QuoteThe Bamberg Jochum 8 seems never to have made it onto CD (and evenLP or DVD are unavailable) or else is simply not available.

The later one of the Jochum Bambergs is from September in Tokyo. It's available from Altus as both CD and DVD.

http://www.altusmusic.com/conductor/jochum-eugen/jochum-bamberg-so-bruckner-symphony-no-8-2cd-1982-tokyo-live/

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Bruckner-1824-1896_000000000019429/item_Sym-8-Jochum-Bamberg-so-1982_151781
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on July 11, 2016, 10:31:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2016, 10:23:27 AM
And I mean ... Saturday I pull the disc from the jewel case, and ... I see the Deutsche Grammaphon label, not the London/Decca label.  So the imposture was hiding in plain sight.

sleep little Henning do not cry
Chailly will offer you another try


(http://thumbnails115.imagebam.com/49451/590ef7494505837.jpg) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/590ef7494505837)

Quite affordable on many websites...

:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2016, 10:32:29 AM
Quote from: Marc on July 11, 2016, 10:31:14 AM
sleep little Henning do not cry
Chailly will offer you another try


(http://thumbnails115.imagebam.com/49451/590ef7494505837.jpg) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/590ef7494505837)

Quite affordable on many websites...

:)

Well, I've tried again.

Definitely checking it, first thing it arrives.  I've learnt my lesson . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on July 11, 2016, 10:42:05 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2016, 10:32:29 AM
Well, I've tried again.

Definitely checking it, first thing it arrives.  I've learnt my lesson . . . .

Good.

But first... for old time's sake:

https://www.youtube.com/v/LTo-TwFIr_M
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 11, 2016, 10:47:23 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2016, 10:15:34 AM
Parenthetically ... two and a half years ago I ordered a used copy of the Chailly/RSO Berlin Seventh.

I blush to say that I only noticed today that the wrong disc was in the case:  HvK/Berliner Philharmoniker (which is, of course, a redundancy, as I have the HvK Bruckner box).

Gosh, do I feel silly.

If It's any consolation, Karl, Herbie won the Death Match 7. He does do the Seventh proud (although my personal favorite is his EMI performance).

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2016, 11:04:18 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 11, 2016, 10:47:23 AM
If It's any consolation, Karl, Herbie won the Death Match 7. He does do the Seventh proud (although my personal favorite is his EMI performance).

Sarge

I know a good home to send this redundant Bruckner Seventh to  0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on July 11, 2016, 11:40:06 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 11, 2016, 01:10:53 AM
Daverz, may I question your Sieghart/2 choice?!?III Are you sure it's not Eichhorn that you are thinking about?

Yes, sorry, it's Eichhorn.  Original version of 2 edited by Bill Carragan.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on July 11, 2016, 11:58:10 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 10, 2016, 06:24:01 AM
Very nice post, Jens! Great job, sir.
Thanks for the positive feedback! Much appreciated. (As I say: "Bruckner is a love. [Mahler an addiction.]")ne
Daverz, may I question your Sieghart/2 choice?!?III Are you sure it's not Eichhorn that you are thinking about?schur

Tally-time
(updated):

No. 00 - Inbal/Frankfurt (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009J71/goodmusicguide-20)


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61GHeyUR52L._SL500_SX300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009J71/nectarandambr-20)


No. 0 - Blunier B.O.Bonn (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004PKO5MA/goodmusicguide-20) |  Marriner/Stuttgart (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001VHB/goodmusicguide-20) |  Haitink/RCO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0014NIDPG/goodmusicguide-20) | Skrowaczewski Saarbrücken (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008HE50/goodmusicguide-20)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51kl-0IqWUL.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004PKO5MA/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001VHB.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001VHB/nectarandambr-20)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51wsAV2GuCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0014NIDPG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00008HE50.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008HE50/nectarandambr-20)


No. 1 - HvK/Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E33Y/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Neumann/Leipzig (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000669W6/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/RCO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021CF848/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Chailly  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3O5/goodmusicguide-20)| Sawallisch/BStO  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000599M/goodmusicguide-20)| Tintner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SYFQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Maazel BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00475E136/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand/Cologne (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0042U2HLY/goodmusicguide-20) | Skrowaczewski Saarbrücken (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000I3YY/goodmusicguide-20)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00ATRPHFM.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E33Y/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000669W6.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000669W6/nectarandambr-20)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1iaJFh81mL._SX522_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021CF848/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000E3O5.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3O5/nectarandambr-20)(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/204/2040243.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000599M/nectarandambr-20)


No. 2 - Stein, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000OPP9QG/goodmusicguide-20) (x5)| Jochum/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHW2/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Dausgaard Swedish CO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0045W9BSG/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000HYAX/goodmusicguide-20) | Inbal/Frankfurt  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E8QH/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/Berlin  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E33Z/goodmusicguide-20) | Suitner/Tokyo (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00CH86AGG/goodmusicguide-20) | Zender/SWF-BB (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002MSR10/goodmusicguide-20) | Eichhorn/BOLinz/SWF-BB (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004U4GQ/goodmusicguide-20)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000OPP9QG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000OPP9QG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005QHW2.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHW2/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0045W9BSG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0045W9BSG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000HYAX.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000HYAX/nectarandambr-20)


No. 3 - Kubelik BRSO Sony (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0018DO1Z8/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) {Audite (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CSUMQW/goodmusicguide-20)} | Nagano/DSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00K1Q3VNG/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Celibidache MPhil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG2Z/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Böhm/WPh (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002GQ74IC/goodmusicguide-20)  | Venzago, Bern SO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00BEMV0SO/goodmusicguide-20) | Szell/ClevO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B009GN76Y0/goodmusicguide-20) | Tintner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003Q40K/goodmusicguide-20) | Sinopoli/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4RL/goodmusicguide-20) | Nezet-Seguin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00LYJING4/goodmusicguide-20) | Schuricht/WPh/EMI (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B008I15774/goodmusicguide-20)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007WZXFS.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007WZXFS/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000CSUMQW.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CSUMQW/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00K1Q3VNG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00K1Q3VNG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG2Z.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG2Z/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B002GQ74IC.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002GQ74IC/nectarandambr-20)


No. 4 - Böhm WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000KP7JDQ/goodmusicguide-20) (x4) | Kubelik, BRSO (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007WZXG2/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/Berlin/EMI (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002S7Z/goodmusicguide-20) | Klemperer/BRSO (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000AF4S/goodmusicguide-20) | Honeck, Pittsburgh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00R4VU7J2/goodmusicguide-20) | Blomstedt/SFSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B014I2Y9E8/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000247D1/goodmusicguide-20) | Jochum Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHW2/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim/CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z1AP/goodmusicguide-20)  | Suitner/StaKapB (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B01G4DZHQ8/goodmusicguide-20) | B00004YL94/CzPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z1AP/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim/CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00ET820BQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Ormandy/Philadelphia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00ET820BQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Herrreweghe (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00COU078Y/goodmusicguide-20) (Review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/05/dip-your-ears-no-60.html))


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000KP7JDQ.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000KP7JDQ/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007WZXG2.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007WZXG2/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000002S7Z.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002S7Z/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000AF4S.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000AF4S/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00R4VU7J2.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00R4VU7J2/nectarandambr-20)(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/984/MI0000984732.jpg?partner=allrovi.com) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B014I2Y9E8/nectarandambr-20)


No. 5 - Dohnanyi/ClevO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4X1/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) | Celibidache MPhil (x2)  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG31/goodmusicguide-20) | Sinopoli, Dresden (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000058BH0/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/BPh (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H9N3E18/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand, Cologne (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063X5P/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand, NDRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B01HLDYQJ4/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00442M0MQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Suitner/StakapB (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035NG/goodmusicguide-20) | Jochum/RCO/Philips (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000V6S8U2/goodmusicguide-20) {December 1986 (http://amzn.to/29mWQU0)} | Klemperer/NewPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B008YKRRH2/goodmusicguide-20) | Harnoncourt/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00M3J2S6A/goodmusicguide-20)


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1gNUxebghL._SX522_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4X1/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG31.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG31/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000058BH0.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000058BH0/nectarandambr-20) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00H9N3E18.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H9N3E18/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000063X5P.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063X5P/nectarandambr-20)


No. 6 - Norrington, SWR RSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CH3BRO/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/best-recordings-of-2010-almost-list.html)) | HvK/Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H9N3F9O/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Stein/WPh  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007MR298/goodmusicguide-20)(x2) | Klemperer (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000AF1MU/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Haitink Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000LC4Y1S/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-no-80b-bruckner-6.html)) | Sawallisch/BStO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000596U/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Celibidache, MPhil (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG32/goodmusicguide-20) | Nagano/DSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0063JALWO/goodmusicguide-20) | D.R.Davies (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001BWQW6C/goodmusicguide-20) | Gielen/Baden-Baden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002N48WQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Bongartz/Lpzg (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035TT/goodmusicguide-20) | Keilberth/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007X6SYE8/goodmusicguide-20) 


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001CH3BRO.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CH3BRO/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00H9N3F9O.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3F5/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007MR298.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007MR298/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000AF1MU.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000AF1MU/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000LC4Y1S.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000LC4Y1S/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000596U.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000596U/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG32.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG32/nectarandambr-20)


No. 7 - HvK/Vienna (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GKC/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Blomstedt/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003RECFFY/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | HvK/Berlin/EMI (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009NDKV4/goodmusicguide-20) {DG (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3F6/goodmusicguide-20)} | Rosbaud/SWR BB (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H27YV2W/goodmusicguide-20) | Chailly/RSO Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024WGM/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000VPNK5Q/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/05/b7-solti-haitink-bhm-co.html)) | Böhm, BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000XPU5M0/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html)) | Böhm, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3HJ/goodmusicguide-20)  | Dohnanyi/ClevO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4OS/goodmusicguide-20) | Skrowaczewski Saarbrücken (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0043VMP64/goodmusicguide-20) | Matacic/CzechPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001NPU6U/goodmusicguide-20) | Schuricht/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00NBSYLJE/goodmusicguide-20) | Herrreweghe (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002I745O/goodmusicguide-20) (Review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/11/dip-your-ears-no-17.html))


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GKC.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GKC/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003RECFFY.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003RECFFY/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0009NDKV4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009NDKV4/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00H27YV2W.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H27YV2W/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000024WGM.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024WGM/nectarandambr-20)


No. 8 - Wand, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q66Y/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Boulez, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TL2N/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Celibidache, MPhil, EMI (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG33/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Schuricht/VPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0079J26S4/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) |Böhm/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000025MOX/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Blomstedt, Leipzig (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000MGAZ98/goodmusicguide-20) | Maazel/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000040OCD/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3F7/goodmusicguide-20) |  Furtwängler/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002J53H4/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/RCO/69 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009A41VU/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/RCO/81 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E2SV/goodmusicguide-20) | Chailly (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000665EV/goodmusicguide-20) | Thielemann/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003N843T0/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/notes-from-2012-dresden-music-festival_26.html))


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005Q66Y.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q66Y/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004TL2N.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TL2N/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG33.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG33/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0079J26S4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0079J26S4/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000025MOX.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000025MOX/nectarandambr-20)


No. 9 - Kubelik/BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005N556/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Wand, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002VYE0E/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Giulini, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GAM/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Jochum/Dresden (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SRG7/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink, RCO 81 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E2LS/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000SDZ/goodmusicguide-20) | Dohnanyi, Philharmonia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0127PVLZI/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/08/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-9.html)) | Furtwängler/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MWYW/goodmusicguide-20) | Mehta/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005N56Z/goodmusicguide-20)  | Walter (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002J58XI/goodmusicguide-20) | Rögner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00LY9WCHK/goodmusicguide-20) | Leitner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00007BHHP/goodmusicguide-20) | Bernstein/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0053MFES8/goodmusicguide-20) | Rattle/Complete (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007O3QC8K/goodmusicguide-20) | Schuricht/VPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0079J26S4/goodmusicguide-20)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005N556.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005N556/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0002VYE0E.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002VYE0E/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GAM.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GAM/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004SRG7.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SRG7/nectarandambr-20)



Notes:
Sawallisch is not w/BRSO but BStO in both instances. Berlin and Munich Orchestras dominate w/20 resp. 16 mentions if I counted right.
André mentioned a Zander/2 which I am not aware of; only his 5th... The Bamberg Jochum 8 seems never to have made it onto CD (and evenLP or DVD are unavailable) or else is simply not available.

Very little consensus. Assumed editorial liberties by ignoring the "Chicago-for-everything" recommendation.  Includes Drasko's choices: Speaking of Drasko: Did I get your Furtwangler Choces right? With him, it's always a bit tricky in Bruckner, given the many non-official and officialish recordings that are out there.

Conductors with Multiple Mentions (=/>4):


1 - HvK     : IIIIIIIIIIIIII 14 (˄)
2 - Böhm    : IIIIIIIIII 10 ˅
2 - Haitink : IIIIIIIIII 10 ˅
4 - Wand    : IIIIIIIII 9 -
5 - Kubelik : IIIIIIII 8 -
5 - Celi    : IIIIIIII 8 ˄
7 - Stein   : IIIIIII 7 ˄
8 - Jochum  : IIIIII 6 ˅
9 - Dohnanyi: IIIII 5 -
9 - Schuricht: IIIII 5 NEW
11 - Chailly: IIII 4 ˅

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2016, 02:17:00 PM
Quote from: Marc on July 11, 2016, 09:51:01 AM
I agree.
Yet, it was one of my 'instant' Bruckner favourites after I first listened to it. The same happened with 1 and 4.

After that, I quickly lost my heart to no 9 (thanks to a very driven live performance by Reinbert de Leeuw and a Dutch youth orchestra).

Then Haitink (Concertgebouw 1981, Philips) convinced me of no 8.
And Jochum/Dresden of no 5.
And I convinced myself of no 2. :) I think it's probably Bruckner's most underrated symphony.

The nullified and study symphony are quite nice, too. The latter reminded me a lot of Schumann when I first heard it.
But I don't play them that often, despite the fact that I certainly think that 'Zero' deserves better critics than it generally achieves.

Nos 3 & 7 are still a bit of a problem... when I was just 20+ years of age, I listened to 3 & 4 from my dad's vinyl collection (forgot the orchestras/conductors, sorry to say).
I immediately liked 4, but felt completely lost when listening to the Third.
The same with no 7, which I first heard live, with a girlfriend (not THE girlfriend (to my regret back then), but a very good friend nevertheless ;)), and we both said after the concert: guess we'll never be Bruckner fans then.

I know she's still not Anton's greatest fan, but since I grew older I personally grew more and more attached to his music.

3 & 7 are still 'bubbling under' though.

There's something completely endearing about Bruckner's music. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's just a quality in his music that I cannot find in any other 19th Century composer. I mean sure composers like Brahms, Dvorak, Berlioz, Schumann, Liszt, Wagner, Schubert, among others had some special things happening in their music and each of these composers have their own followers and detractors (as with any composer), but even when I wasn't a follower of Bruckner, I was attracted by the 'strange noise' of his music. It just sounded like nothing that came before or after it.

As for Symphonies 3 & 7, I love the 7th more than the 3rd. I'm still not completely convinced by his 3rd. It has some interesting qualities and quirks about it, but it doesn't really speak to me right now. I suppose I'll appreciate it more as time goes on. As for the 2nd being underrated, I suppose we can say that of Symphonies 0-3 in general. I don't hear people talk about these works very often, but I definitely need to do my homework a bit more in regards to these early symphonies. I do love the 1st. I'm getting more familiar with the 2nd. I don't know 0 or 00 at all or as well as I should.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2016, 02:18:47 PM
Loving the work you're doing, Jens. Keep it up!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 11, 2016, 02:49:56 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 11, 2016, 02:17:00 PM
There's something completely endearing about Bruckner's music. I can't quite put my finger on it...

I don't know 0 or 00 at all or as well as I should.

Undoubtedly the source of the endearing aspect, which for me is too weak a description (life-long obsession comes closer   ;) :D   ), is different among listeners, which is why it will be  difficult to describe.

A few years ago I heard Stefan Sanderling and the Toledo Symphony play the Symphony #0 in the Roman Catholic cathedral there, and in their performance die Nullte had nothing to be bashful about: it was a proud Bruckner Symphony, despite its early origin!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2016, 03:31:31 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 11, 2016, 02:49:56 PM
Undoubtedly the source of the endearing aspect, which for me is too weak a description (life-long obsession comes closer   ;) :D   ), is different among listeners, which is why it will be  difficult to describe.

A few years ago I heard Stefan Sanderling and the Toledo Symphony play the Symphony #0 in a the Roman Catholic cathedral there, and in their performance die Nullte had nothing to be bashful about: it was a proud Bruckner Symphony, despite its early origin!

Great to read, Cato. Yeah, there's something quite compelling about this music.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on July 11, 2016, 07:37:00 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 11, 2016, 02:17:00 PM
[...]
As for Symphonies 3 & 7, I love the 7th more than the 3rd. I'm still not completely convinced by his 3rd.[...]

Same here.

Quote from: Cato on July 11, 2016, 02:49:56 PM
Undoubtedly the source of the endearing aspect, which for me is too weak a description (life-long obsession comes closer   ;) :D   ), is different among listeners, which is why it will be  difficult to describe.

A few years ago I heard Stefan Sanderling and the Toledo Symphony play the Symphony #0 in the Roman Catholic cathedral there, and in their performance die Nullte had nothing to be bashful about: it was a proud Bruckner Symphony, despite its early origin!

Mind you, die Nullte was already Bruckner's third symphony!
Despite what many people think, it was composed between nos 1 & 2.
Originally Bruckner wrote 'no 2' on the score of the 'Nullified'.
But he decided to withdraw this specific work in D-minor, because he already started to sketch and work on the (eventual) 3rd in D-minor, which he thought was a far better attempt to 'honour' this Beethoven 9 key. And the earlier D-minor work received too much criticism from f.i. leading members of the Wiener Phil.

In fact, the only 'real' Zero :-\ symphony is no 00, which Bruckner has always considered to be just a 'Schularbeit'. (Still a nice one, though. :))

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_in_D_minor_(Bruckner)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on July 11, 2016, 11:13:07 PM
As he was 47 when he wrote the "Nullte", 44 when he wrote the first, slightly over 40 when he wrote the "Studiensymphonie", none of them can really be considered early...
If one takes the official 1st, even Brahms beat him who despite laboring for more than a decade on his first got it done when he was 43...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 12, 2016, 06:28:26 AM
Quote from: Marc on July 11, 2016, 07:37:00 PM


Mind you, die Nullte was already Bruckner's third symphony!
Despite what many people think, it was composed between nos 1 & 2.


No, I had not forgotten that!  ;)

Symphonies 0-3 are "Early" in the sense that they are - obviously! - not from the middle or end of his career!  That Bruckner himself was in his 40's (a "late bloomer"  0:)) would not seem to affect that.

Quote from: jlaurson on July 11, 2016, 11:28:38 PM
I think Philip Glass has them beat, seeing that he was 55 when he wrote the "Low" Symphony in 1992.

Kodaly began sketching his only symphony when he was in his 50's, and finished it when he was 79!  ??? ;)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on July 12, 2016, 06:40:57 AM
Well, if I do write a [first] symphony, it is apt to be in my 50s (I have sketches from earlier, but ... may not trouble to use them).  If I do start it though (pace Kodály) I shan't wait until 79 to finish it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 14, 2016, 09:55:00 AM
Quote from: Draško on July 11, 2016, 10:27:46 AM
The later one of the Jochum Bambergs is from September in Tokyo. It's available from Altus as both CD and DVD.

http://www.altusmusic.com/conductor/jochum-eugen/jochum-bamberg-so-bruckner-symphony-no-8-2cd-1982-tokyo-live/

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Bruckner-1824-1896_000000000019429/item_Sym-8-Jochum-Bamberg-so-1982_151781

You are right, of course ! I'll be listening to the two of them in short order to make up my mind as to which of the two is my favourite. In any case, they both rank in my top 10 for that work. An embarrassment of riches !

Right now, listening to the Zender 2nd, a wonderful recording indeed. The work may be a bit all over the place stylistically speaking, but it's echt-Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on July 15, 2016, 11:16:51 AM
My review of a quite moving Bruckner 6th Symphony last night, with Christoph Eschenbach and the National Youth Orchestra of the USA. I was quite impressed that that musicians relatively young (ages 16-19) could play this so beautifully, and with such confidence.

http://newyorkclassicalreview.com/2016/07/eschenbach-national-youth-orchestra-of-usa-scale-the-heights-with-bruckner/

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 15, 2016, 12:38:47 PM
Quote from: Brewski on July 15, 2016, 11:16:51 AM
My review of a quite moving Bruckner 6th Symphony last night, with Christoph Eschenbach and the National Youth Orchestra of the USA. I was quite impressed that that musicians relatively young (ages 16-19) could play this so beautifully, and with such confidence.

http://newyorkclassicalreview.com/2016/07/eschenbach-national-youth-orchestra-of-usa-scale-the-heights-with-bruckner/

--Bruce

I read about this but forgot to mark the date. Well, I'm sure it's not the last time they'll play in NY. Good to hear they did so well (the New York Youth Symphony also plays at Carnegie, and is quite good; each concert features and original work by a young composer too).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on July 15, 2016, 03:05:45 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 15, 2016, 12:38:47 PM
I read about this but forgot to mark the date. Well, I'm sure it's not the last time they'll play in NY. Good to hear they did so well (the New York Youth Symphony also plays at Carnegie, and is quite good; each concert features and original work by a young composer too).

Based on their schedule to date, they come to Carnegie every other summer, so looks like their next visit will be in 2018. (I wish they could play a bit more, but the snag is probably scheduling, since the musicians come from all over the country - not quite "all 50 states," but close.)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on July 16, 2016, 10:18:30 AM
Did some no 7 listening during the last days, which changed my mind about my little list... I'd like to exchange a splendid recording for a splendid performance, please please please.

(Jens, I hope it's not too much trouble. :))

Quote from: Marc on July 07, 2016, 10:19:40 AM
No. 1 - Haitink/Concertgebouw
No. 2 - Suitner/Tokyo (live)
No. 3 - Wand/Köln
No. 4 - Ormandy/Philadelphia
No. 5 - Harnoncourt/Wiener Phil
No. 6 - Haitink/Dresden (live)
No. 7 - Chailly/Berlin RSO Rosbaud/SWR Baden-Baden
No. 8 - Haitink/Concertgebouw (1981)
No. 9 - Bernstein/Wiener Phil ['sentimental choice']

Bonus:
Study Symphony: Inbal/Frankfurt
Nullified Symphony: Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 16, 2016, 11:40:17 AM
Quote from: Brewski on July 15, 2016, 03:05:45 PM
Based on their schedule to date, they come to Carnegie every other summer, so looks like their next visit will be in 2018. (I wish they could play a bit more, but the snag is probably scheduling, since the musicians come from all over the country - not quite "all 50 states," but close.)

--Bruce

They are resident at Purchase, NY, and according to the web site will play at Carnegie each year.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 16, 2016, 05:53:01 PM
Thanks to a benefactor, I'm expecting a cd of the 1st under Haitink with the SOBR (1974) which, according to him, is even more dynamic than the 1971 COA recording. I can't wait !!  ;D.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on July 16, 2016, 11:56:08 PM
Quote from: André on July 16, 2016, 05:53:01 PM
Thanks to a benefactor, I'm expecting a cd of the 1st under Haitink with the SOBR (1974) which, according to him, is even more dynamic than the 1971 COA recording. I can't wait !!  ;D.

It is.
Coincidentally I listened to it last week, and enjoyed it a lot.
Less 'perfect' than the Concertgebouw, but with more emotion.

Have fun!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 17, 2016, 07:33:08 AM
Tomorrow I'll give Thielemann's newest recording of the 7th a listen. Great looking package overall from Profil.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 21, 2016, 06:57:05 AM
Munich Phil has its own label now, and released Gergiev conducting Bruckner's 4th. Has anyone heard this? Or heard Gergiev conducting Bruckner before?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 22, 2016, 11:29:05 AM
This is an excellent question. Unless you intended to scare us all  ?  ???
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 23, 2016, 09:02:41 PM
From what my ears have heard, Knappertsbusch excels when interpreting Bruckner. I've listened to the 4th (Berlin-1944) 8th (Munich-1963) and 9th (Berlin-1950) and they are all brilliant. Knapp is very individualistic in his approach, and not specifically attached to one style or tone as each symphony is given it's own. Anyone else have any thoughts on Knappertsbusch and his conducting of Bruckner's symphonies?
(Couldn't find a decent pic of the 9th recording)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ia5PEldQL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ccqPbF2NL.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on July 24, 2016, 02:24:52 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 21, 2016, 06:57:05 AM
Munich Phil has its own label now, and released Gergiev conducting Bruckner's 4th. Has anyone heard this? Or heard Gergiev conducting Bruckner before?

Yes (though not I that particular 4th), it was a concert in Munich at which this was recorded. I was told that he had a concert of B4 at Suntory Hall that was out of this world... not long after the Munich performance. (I didn't hear it; friends tell me it was good, not great; better than expected.)

He'll conduct (and record) a whole cycle of the Bruckner symphonies (0-9!) at St. Florian. This will mean the first (!!!) recordings of the MPhil of Bruckner 0, 1, and 2.

Also, the orchestra that's premiered Mahler 4, 8, DLvdE and the second perf. of M7 (all but DLvdE under Mahler himself), is issuing its second (!!) ever Mahler recording with that Gergiev M2. (That concert I was at and reported from. (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/09/28/gergiev-starts-munich-tenure-with-mahler/#191f53405329)) Incidentally I talked with Gergiev an hour about -- ostensibly Bruckner and the new label -- but he was a bit off topic and in the zone... so I can't relate much that's apropos.

Quote from: Brewski on July 15, 2016, 11:16:51 AM
My review of a quite moving Bruckner 6th Symphony last night, with Christoph Eschenbach and the National Youth Orchestra of the USA. I was quite impressed that that musicians relatively young (ages 16-19) could play this so beautifully, and with such confidence.

http://newyorkclassicalreview.com/2016/07/eschenbach-national-youth-orchestra-of-usa-scale-the-heights-with-bruckner/

--Bruce

That's one of the great skills of Eschenbach, to bring (even!) Bruckner so near to such young players. I find Bruckner with him -- and with Youth Orchestras especially -- one of his great strengths.


Quote from: Marc on July 16, 2016, 10:18:30 AM
Did some no 7 listening during the last days, which changed my mind about my little list... I'd like to exchange a splendid recording for a splendid performance, please please please.

(Jens, I hope it's not too much trouble. :))


Will do, of course... hopefully tomorrow. Am at a festival and therefore a bit busy... but I'll hear Bruckner 6 with Herreweghe the day after tomorrow -- and again at St. Florian in a 2  Piano version and the real thing with the illegitimate son of Celibidache (<- licentious rumor!), Remy Ballot. :-)

Update: DONE

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 10, 2016, 06:24:01 AM
Very nice post, Jens! Great job, sir.
Thanks for the positive feedback! Much appreciated. (As I say: "Bruckner is a love. [Mahler an addiction.]")ne
Daverz, may I question your Sieghart/2 choice?!?III Are you sure it's not Eichhorn that you are thinking about?schur

Tally-time
(updated):

No. 00 - Inbal/Frankfurt (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009J71/goodmusicguide-20)


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61GHeyUR52L._SL500_SX300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009J71/nectarandambr-20)


No. 0 - Blunier B.O.Bonn (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004PKO5MA/goodmusicguide-20) |  Marriner/Stuttgart (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001VHB/goodmusicguide-20) |  Haitink/RCO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0014NIDPG/goodmusicguide-20) | Skrowaczewski Saarbrücken (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008HE50/goodmusicguide-20)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51kl-0IqWUL.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004PKO5MA/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001VHB.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001VHB/nectarandambr-20)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51wsAV2GuCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0014NIDPG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00008HE50.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008HE50/nectarandambr-20)


No. 1 - HvK/Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E33Y/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Neumann/Leipzig (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000669W6/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/RCO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021CF848/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Chailly  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3O5/goodmusicguide-20)| Sawallisch/BStO  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000599M/goodmusicguide-20)| Tintner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SYFQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Maazel BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00475E136/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand/Cologne (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0042U2HLY/goodmusicguide-20) | Skrowaczewski Saarbrücken (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000I3YY/goodmusicguide-20)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00ATRPHFM.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E33Y/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000669W6.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000669W6/nectarandambr-20)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1iaJFh81mL._SX522_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021CF848/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000E3O5.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3O5/nectarandambr-20)(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/204/2040243.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000599M/nectarandambr-20)


No. 2 - Stein, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000OPP9QG/goodmusicguide-20) (x5)| Jochum/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHW2/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Dausgaard Swedish CO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0045W9BSG/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000HYAX/goodmusicguide-20) | Inbal/Frankfurt  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E8QH/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/Berlin  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E33Z/goodmusicguide-20) | Suitner/Tokyo (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00CH86AGG/goodmusicguide-20) | Zender/SWF-BB (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002MSR10/goodmusicguide-20) | Eichhorn/BOLinz/SWF-BB (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004U4GQ/goodmusicguide-20)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000OPP9QG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000OPP9QG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005QHW2.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHW2/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0045W9BSG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0045W9BSG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000HYAX.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000HYAX/nectarandambr-20)


No. 3 - Kubelik BRSO Sony (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0018DO1Z8/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) {Audite (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CSUMQW/goodmusicguide-20)} | Nagano/DSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00K1Q3VNG/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Celibidache MPhil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG2Z/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Böhm/WPh (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002GQ74IC/goodmusicguide-20)  | Venzago, Bern SO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00BEMV0SO/goodmusicguide-20) | Szell/ClevO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B009GN76Y0/goodmusicguide-20) | Tintner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003Q40K/goodmusicguide-20) | Sinopoli/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4RL/goodmusicguide-20) | Nezet-Seguin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00LYJING4/goodmusicguide-20) | Schuricht/WPh/EMI (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B008I15774/goodmusicguide-20)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007WZXFS.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007WZXFS/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000CSUMQW.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CSUMQW/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00K1Q3VNG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00K1Q3VNG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG2Z.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG2Z/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B002GQ74IC.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002GQ74IC/nectarandambr-20)


No. 4 - Böhm WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000KP7JDQ/goodmusicguide-20) (x4) | Kubelik, BRSO (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007WZXG2/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/Berlin/EMI (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002S7Z/goodmusicguide-20) | Klemperer/BRSO (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000AF4S/goodmusicguide-20) | Honeck, Pittsburgh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00R4VU7J2/goodmusicguide-20) | Blomstedt/SFSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B014I2Y9E8/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000247D1/goodmusicguide-20) | Jochum Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHW2/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim/CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z1AP/goodmusicguide-20)  | Suitner/StaKapB (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B01G4DZHQ8/goodmusicguide-20) | B00004YL94/CzPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z1AP/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim/CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00ET820BQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Ormandy/Philadelphia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00ET820BQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Herrreweghe (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00COU078Y/goodmusicguide-20) (Review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/05/dip-your-ears-no-60.html))


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000KP7JDQ.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000KP7JDQ/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007WZXG2.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007WZXG2/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000002S7Z.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002S7Z/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000AF4S.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000AF4S/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00R4VU7J2.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00R4VU7J2/nectarandambr-20)(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/984/MI0000984732.jpg?partner=allrovi.com) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B014I2Y9E8/nectarandambr-20)


No. 5 - Dohnanyi/ClevO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4X1/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) | Celibidache MPhil (x2)  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG31/goodmusicguide-20) | Sinopoli, Dresden (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000058BH0/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/BPh (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H9N3E18/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand, Cologne (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063X5P/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand, NDRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B01HLDYQJ4/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00442M0MQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Suitner/StakapB (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035NG/goodmusicguide-20) | Jochum/RCO/Philips (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000V6S8U2/goodmusicguide-20) {December 1986 (http://amzn.to/29mWQU0)} | Klemperer/NewPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B008YKRRH2/goodmusicguide-20) | Harnoncourt/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00M3J2S6A/goodmusicguide-20)


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1gNUxebghL._SX522_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4X1/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG31.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG31/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000058BH0.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000058BH0/nectarandambr-20) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00H9N3E18.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H9N3E18/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000063X5P.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063X5P/nectarandambr-20)


No. 6 - Norrington, SWR RSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CH3BRO/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/best-recordings-of-2010-almost-list.html)) | HvK/Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H9N3F9O/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Stein/WPh  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007MR298/goodmusicguide-20)(x2) | Klemperer (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000AF1MU/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Haitink Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000LC4Y1S/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-no-80b-bruckner-6.html)) | Sawallisch/BStO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000596U/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Celibidache, MPhil (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG32/goodmusicguide-20) | Nagano/DSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0063JALWO/goodmusicguide-20) | D.R.Davies (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001BWQW6C/goodmusicguide-20) | Gielen/Baden-Baden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002N48WQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Bongartz/Lpzg (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035TT/goodmusicguide-20) | Keilberth/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007X6SYE8/goodmusicguide-20) 


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001CH3BRO.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CH3BRO/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00H9N3F9O.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3F5/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007MR298.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007MR298/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000AF1MU.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000AF1MU/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000LC4Y1S.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000LC4Y1S/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000596U.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000596U/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG32.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG32/nectarandambr-20)


No. 7 - HvK/Vienna (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GKC/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Blomstedt/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003RECFFY/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | HvK/Berlin/EMI (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009NDKV4/goodmusicguide-20) {DG (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3F6/goodmusicguide-20)} | Rosbaud/SWR BB (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H27YV2W/goodmusicguide-20) | Chailly/RSO Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024WGM/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000VPNK5Q/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/05/b7-solti-haitink-bhm-co.html)) | Böhm, BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000XPU5M0/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html)) | Böhm, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3HJ/goodmusicguide-20)  | Dohnanyi/ClevO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4OS/goodmusicguide-20) | Skrowaczewski Saarbrücken (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0043VMP64/goodmusicguide-20) | Matacic/CzechPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001NPU6U/goodmusicguide-20) | Schuricht/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00NBSYLJE/goodmusicguide-20) | Herrreweghe (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002I745O/goodmusicguide-20) (Review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/11/dip-your-ears-no-17.html))


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GKC.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GKC/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003RECFFY.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003RECFFY/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0009NDKV4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009NDKV4/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00H27YV2W.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H27YV2W/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000024WGM.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024WGM/nectarandambr-20)


No. 8 - Wand, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q66Y/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Boulez, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TL2N/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Celibidache, MPhil, EMI (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG33/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Schuricht/VPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0079J26S4/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) |Böhm/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000025MOX/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Blomstedt, Leipzig (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000MGAZ98/goodmusicguide-20) | Maazel/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000040OCD/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3F7/goodmusicguide-20) |  Furtwängler/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002J53H4/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/RCO/69 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009A41VU/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/RCO/81 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E2SV/goodmusicguide-20) | Chailly (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000665EV/goodmusicguide-20) | Thielemann/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003N843T0/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/notes-from-2012-dresden-music-festival_26.html))


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005Q66Y.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q66Y/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004TL2N.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TL2N/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG33.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG33/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0079J26S4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0079J26S4/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000025MOX.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000025MOX/nectarandambr-20)


No. 9 - Kubelik/BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005N556/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Wand, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002VYE0E/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Giulini, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GAM/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Jochum/Dresden (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SRG7/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink, RCO 81 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E2LS/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000SDZ/goodmusicguide-20) | Dohnanyi, Philharmonia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0127PVLZI/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/08/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-9.html)) | Furtwängler/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MWYW/goodmusicguide-20) | Mehta/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005N56Z/goodmusicguide-20)  | Walter (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002J58XI/goodmusicguide-20) | Rögner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00LY9WCHK/goodmusicguide-20) | Leitner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00007BHHP/goodmusicguide-20) | Bernstein/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0053MFES8/goodmusicguide-20) | Rattle/Complete (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007O3QC8K/goodmusicguide-20) | Schuricht/VPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0079J26S4/goodmusicguide-20)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005N556.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005N556/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0002VYE0E.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002VYE0E/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GAM.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GAM/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004SRG7.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SRG7/nectarandambr-20)



Notes:
Sawallisch is not w/BRSO but BStO in both instances. Berlin and Munich Orchestras dominate w/20 resp. 16 mentions if I counted right.
André mentioned a Zander/2 which I am not aware of; only his 5th... The Bamberg Jochum 8 seems never to have made it onto CD (and evenLP or DVD are unavailable) or else is simply not available.

Very little consensus. Assumed editorial liberties by ignoring the "Chicago-for-everything" recommendation.  Includes Drasko's choices: Speaking of Drasko: Did I get your Furtwangler Choces right? With him, it's always a bit tricky in Bruckner, given the many non-official and officialish recordings that are out there.

Conductors with Multiple Mentions (=/>4):


1 - HvK     : IIIIIIIIIIIIII 14 (˄)
2 - Böhm    : IIIIIIIIII 10 ˅
2 - Haitink : IIIIIIIIII 10 ˅
4 - Wand    : IIIIIIIII 9 -
5 - Kubelik : IIIIIIII 8 -
5 - Celi    : IIIIIIII 8 ˄
7 - Stein   : IIIIIII 7 ˄
8 - Jochum  : IIIIII 6 ˅
9 - Dohnanyi: IIIII 5 -
9 - Schuricht: IIIII 5 NEW
11 - Chailly: IIII 4 ˅

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on July 24, 2016, 03:27:54 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 23, 2016, 09:02:41 PM
From what my ears have heard, Knappertsbusch excels when interpreting Bruckner. I've listened to the 4th (Berlin-1944) 8th (Munich-1963) and 9th (Berlin-1950) and they are all brilliant. Knapp is very individualistic in his approach, and not specifically attached to one style or tone as each symphony is given it's own. Anyone else have any thoughts on Knappertsbusch and his conducting of Bruckner's symphonies?

At his best Knappertsbusch Bruckner is awesomely exciting, this organic free-flowing river-like stream of sound where tempo and dynamic fluctuations seem utterly natural, but at his worst fluctuations sound jarring, tempos can get heavy and characterization goes into cartoon caricature land.

Unfortunately he had predilection for Schalk editions, which for me rules out his 5th (but the 3rd survives) and generally I think he is much better live than in studio. I'm afraid I'm not that big fan of that Munich 8th on Westminster, too heavy and ponderous for me.

My favorite recordings would be:

9 - Berlin Philharmonic 28.01.1950
8 - Berlin Philharmonic 08.01.1951 (I have 8 & 9 on Tahra)
7 - Vienna Philharmonic 30.08.1949 (Salzburg on Orfeo)
5 - no go for me
4 - somehow never heard any of his 4ts
3 - Bavarian State Orchestra 11.10.1954 (Orfeo) with some caveats
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 24, 2016, 04:11:36 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 24, 2016, 02:24:52 AM
Yes (though not I that particular 4th), it was a concert in Munich at which this was recorded. I was told that he had a concert of B4 at Suntory Hall that was out of this world... not long after the Munich performance. (I didn't hear it; friends tell me it was good, not great; better than expected.)

He'll conduct (and record) a whole cycle of the Bruckner symphonies (0-9!) at St. Florian. This will mean the first (!!!) recordings of the MPhil of Bruckner 0, 1, and 2.

Also, the orchestra that's premiered Mahler 4, 8, DLvdE and the second perf. of M7 (all but DLvdE under Mahler himself), is issuing its second (!!) ever Mahler recording with that Gergiev M2. (That concert I was at and reported from. (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/09/28/gergiev-starts-munich-tenure-with-mahler/#191f53405329)) Incidentally I talked with Gergiev an hour about -- ostensibly Bruckner and the new label -- but he was a bit off topic and in the zone... so I can't relate much that's apropos.

Thank you for the reply, Jens.  You've done such a great job with compiling all the recordings too, I guess I still need to contribute with my favorites.


Quote from: Draško on July 24, 2016, 03:27:54 AM
At his best Knappertsbusch Bruckner is awesomely exciting, this organic free-flowing river-like stream of sound where tempo and dynamic fluctuations seem utterly natural, but at his worst fluctuations sound jarring, tempos can get heavy and characterization goes into cartoon caricature land.

Unfortunately he had predilection for Schalk editions, which for me rules out his 5th (but the 3rd survives) and generally I think he is much better live than in studio. I'm afraid I'm not that big fan of that Munich 8th on Westminster, too heavy and ponderous for me.

My favorite recordings would be:

9 - Berlin Philharmonic 28.01.1950
8 - Berlin Philharmonic 08.01.1951 (I have 8 & 9 on Tahra)
7 - Vienna Philharmonic 30.08.1949 (Salzburg on Orfeo)
5 - no go for me
4 - somehow never heard any of his 4ts
3 - Bavarian State Orchestra 11.10.1954 (Orfeo) with some caveats

Thank you very much, Drasko!! I've read several other times that the 5th is a no go, I would still be interested to hear Knapp's take on it though. I've come to find my preferences for the last two mvts of the 8th are for more of a broader, meditative approach. I like to hear performances take their time with those themes and melodies. But I can understand your view of it being ponderous.
I think Knapp has many recordings on Spotify, I'll check them out and let you know what I think.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 29, 2016, 08:26:55 PM
Finally posting my pick for Bruckner recordings...

No. 0 - Davies/Bruckner Linz*, Chailly/RSO Berlin
No. 1 - Barenboim/Berlin*
No. 2 - Chailly/RCO*, Tintner/NSOoI
No. 3 - Nagano/DSO Berlin (1873)*, Vanska/BBC Scottish (1877), Wand/Cologne (1889)
No. 4 - Celibidache/Munich*, Jochum/Berlin, Vanska/Minn
No. 5 - Eichhorn/Bruckner Linz*, Sinopoli/Dresden, Harnoncourt/Vienna
No. 6 - Blomstedt/Leipzig*, Haitink/Dresden, Norrington/Stuttgart
No. 7 - Venzago/Basel SO*, Matacic/Czech, Davies/Bruckner Linz
No. 8 - Wand/Berlin*, Knappertsbusch/Munich
No. 9 - Jochum/Berlin*, Barenboim/Berlin, Knappertsbusch/Berlin, Wand/Berlin

Surprisingly the 9th was the hardest to for me to decide, all four I mentioned above are first rate, and deserve to be placed high. I would even include Harnoncourt/Vienna, Giulini/Vienna, Jochum/Dresden to that list.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on July 30, 2016, 01:44:59 AM
Tally-time
(updated):

No. 00 - Inbal/Frankfurt (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009J71/goodmusivcguide-20)


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61GHeyUR52L._SL500_SX300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009J71/nectarandambr-20)


No. 0 - Blunier B.O.Bonn (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004PKO5MA/goodmusicguide-20) |  Marriner/Stuttgart (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001VHB/goodmusicguide-20) |  Haitink/RCO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0014NIDPG/goodmusicguide-20) | Skrowaczewski Saarbrücken (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008HE50/goodmusicguide-20) | Davies/BOLinz (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003VIZ8MI/goodmusicguide-20) | Chailly/RSOBerlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3R1/goodmusicguide-20)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51kl-0IqWUL.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004PKO5MA/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001VHB.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001VHB/nectarandambr-20)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51wsAV2GuCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0014NIDPG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00008HE50.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008HE50/nectarandambr-20)


No. 1 - HvK/Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E33Y/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Neumann/Leipzig (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000669W6/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/RCO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021CF848/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Chailly  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3O5/goodmusicguide-20)| Sawallisch/BStO  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000599M/goodmusicguide-20)| Tintner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SYFQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Maazel BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00475E136/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand/Cologne (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0042U2HLY/goodmusicguide-20) | Skrowaczewski Saarbrücken (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000I3YY/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000006PL6/goodmusicguide-20)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00ATRPHFM.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E33Y/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000669W6.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000669W6/nectarandambr-20)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1iaJFh81mL._SX522_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021CF848/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000E3O5.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3O5/nectarandambr-20)(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/204/2040243.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000599M/nectarandambr-20)


No. 2 - Stein, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000OPP9QG/goodmusicguide-20) (x5)| Jochum/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHW2/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Dausgaard Swedish CO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0045W9BSG/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000HYAX/goodmusicguide-20) | Inbal/Frankfurt  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E8QH/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/Berlin  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E33Z/goodmusicguide-20) | Suitner/Tokyo (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00CH86AGG/goodmusicguide-20) | Zender/SWF-BB (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002MSR10/goodmusicguide-20) | Eichhorn/BOLinz (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004U4GQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Chailly/RCO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000004209/goodmusicguide-20) | Tintner/NSOiI (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000060D5/goodmusicguide-20) 


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000OPP9QG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000OPP9QG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005QHW2.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHW2/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0045W9BSG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0045W9BSG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000HYAX.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000HYAX/nectarandambr-20)


No. 3 - Kubelik/BRSO/Sony - 1878, Ed.Oeser (w/out Scherzo coda) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0018DO1Z8/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) {Audite (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CSUMQW/goodmusicguide-20)} | Nagano/DSO - 1873 OV, Ed.Nowak (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00K1Q3VNG/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) | Celibidache MPhil - 1889, Ed.Nowak (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG2Z/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Böhm/WPh - 1889, Ed.Nowak (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002GQ74IC/goodmusicguide-20)  | Venzago, Bern SO - 1889, Ed.Nowak (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00BEMV0SO/goodmusicguide-20) | Szell/ClevO - 1890, Bruckner-Schalk Bros., Ed.Raettig (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B009GN76Y0/goodmusicguide-20) | Tintner - 1873 OV, Ed.Nowak (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003Q40K/goodmusicguide-20) | Sinopoli/Dresden - 1877, Ed.Leopld Nowak  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4RL/goodmusicguide-20) | Nezet-Seguin - 1873 OV, Ed.Nowak (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00LYJING4/goodmusicguide-20) | Schuricht/WPh/EMI - 1890, Bruckner-Schalk Bros., Ed.Raettig (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B008I15774/goodmusicguide-20) | Vanska/BBC SCottish - 1877, Ed.Nowak (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004YYQ7/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand/Cologne RSO - 1889, Ed.Nowak (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000RGYRQU/goodmusicguide-20) | Norrington/SWR RSO Stuttgart - 1873 OV, Ed.Nowak (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00140L7CU/goodmusicguide-20)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007WZXFS.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007WZXFS/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000CSUMQW.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CSUMQW/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00K1Q3VNG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00K1Q3VNG/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG2Z.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG2Z/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B002GQ74IC.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002GQ74IC/nectarandambr-20)


No. 4 - Böhm WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000KP7JDQ/goodmusicguide-20) (x4) | Kubelik, BRSO (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007WZXG2/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/Berlin/EMI (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002S7Z/goodmusicguide-20) | Klemperer/BRSO (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000AF4S/goodmusicguide-20) | Honeck, Pittsburgh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00R4VU7J2/goodmusicguide-20) | Blomstedt/SFSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B014I2Y9E8/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000247D1/goodmusicguide-20) | Jochum/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QHW2/goodmusicguide-20)] | Jochum/Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GX0/goodmusicguide-20) | Barenboim/CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z1AP/goodmusicguide-20)  | Suitner/StaKapB (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B01G4DZHQ8/goodmusicguide-20) |  Konwitschny/CzPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004YL94/goodmusicguide-20) | Ormandy/Philadelphia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00ET820BQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Herrreweghe (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00COU078Y/goodmusicguide-20) (Review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/05/dip-your-ears-no-60.html)) | Vanska/MN (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003KRAS02/goodmusicguide-20) | Celibidache/MPhil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG30/goodmusicguide-20)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000KP7JDQ.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000KP7JDQ/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007WZXG2.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007WZXG2/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000002S7Z.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002S7Z/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000AF4S.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000AF4S/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00R4VU7J2.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00R4VU7J2/nectarandambr-20)(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/984/MI0000984732.jpg?partner=allrovi.com) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B014I2Y9E8/nectarandambr-20)


No. 5 - Dohnanyi/ClevO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4X1/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) | Sinopoli, Dresden (x3) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000058BH0/goodmusicguide-20) | Celibidache MPhil (x2)  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG31/goodmusicguide-20) | Harnoncourt/WPh (x3) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006PV58U/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/BPh (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H9N3E18/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand, Cologne (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063X5P/goodmusicguide-20) | Wand, NDRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B01HLDYQJ4/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00442M0MQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Suitner/StakapB (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035NG/goodmusicguide-20) | Jochum/RCO/Philips (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000V6S8U2/goodmusicguide-20) {December 1986 (http://amzn.to/29mWQU0)} | Klemperer/NewPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B008YKRRH2/goodmusicguide-20) | Eichhorn/BOLinz (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000050PUB/goodmusicguide-20)


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1gNUxebghL._SX522_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4X1/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG31.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG31/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000058BH0.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000058BH0/nectarandambr-20) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00H9N3E18.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H9N3E18/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000063X5P.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063X5P/nectarandambr-20)


No. 6 - Norrington, SWR RSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CH3BRO/goodmusicguide-20) (x4) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/best-recordings-of-2010-almost-list.html)) | Haitink Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000LC4Y1S/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) | HvK/Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H9N3F9O/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Stein/WPh  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007MR298/goodmusicguide-20)(x2) | Klemperer (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000AF1MU/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) |(review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-no-80b-bruckner-6.html)) | Sawallisch/BStO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000596U/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Celibidache, MPhil (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG32/goodmusicguide-20) | Nagano/DSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0063JALWO/goodmusicguide-20) | D.R.Davies (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001BWQW6C/goodmusicguide-20) | Gielen/Baden-Baden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002N48WQ/goodmusicguide-20) | Bongartz/Lpzg (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035TT/goodmusicguide-20) | Keilberth/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007X6SYE8/goodmusicguide-20) | Blomstedt/Leipzig (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001TN0VLU/goodmusicguide-20) 


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001CH3BRO.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CH3BRO/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00H9N3F9O.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3F5/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0007MR298.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007MR298/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000AF1MU.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000AF1MU/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000LC4Y1S.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000LC4Y1S/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000596U.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000596U/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG32.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG32/nectarandambr-20)


No. 7 - HvK/Vienna (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GKC/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Blomstedt/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003RECFFY/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | HvK/Berlin/EMI (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009NDKV4/goodmusicguide-20) {DG (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3F6/goodmusicguide-20)} | Rosbaud/SWR BB (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H27YV2W/goodmusicguide-20) | Matacic/CzechPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001NPU6U/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Chailly/RSO Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024WGM/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000VPNK5Q/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/05/b7-solti-haitink-bhm-co.html)) | Böhm, BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000XPU5M0/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html)) | Böhm, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3HJ/goodmusicguide-20)  | Dohnanyi/ClevO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4OS/goodmusicguide-20) | Skrowaczewski Saarbrücken (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0043VMP64/goodmusicguide-20) | Schuricht/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00NBSYLJE/goodmusicguide-20) | Venzago/Basel (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004YXL5XU/goodmusicguide-20) | Davies/BOLinz (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001BWQW6M/goodmusicguide-20) | Herrreweghe (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002I745O/goodmusicguide-20) (Review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/11/dip-your-ears-no-17.html))


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GKC.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GKC/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003RECFFY.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003RECFFY/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0009NDKV4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009NDKV4/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00H27YV2W.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00H27YV2W/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000024WGM.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024WGM/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0001NPU6U.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001NPU6U/nectarandambr-20)


No. 8 - Wand, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q66Y/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) | Boulez, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TL2N/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Celibidache, MPhil, EMI (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG33/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Schuricht/VPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0079J26S4/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) |Böhm/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000025MOX/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Blomstedt, Leipzig (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000MGAZ98/goodmusicguide-20) | Maazel/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000040OCD/goodmusicguide-20) | HvK/Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E3F7/goodmusicguide-20) |  Furtwängler/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002J53H4/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/RCO/69 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009A41VU/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink/RCO/81 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E2SV/goodmusicguide-20) | Chailly (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000665EV/goodmusicguide-20) | Knappertsbursch/MPhil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005LMWH/goodmusicguide-20) | Thielemann/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003N843T0/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/notes-from-2012-dresden-music-festival_26.html))


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005Q66Y.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q66Y/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004TL2N.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TL2N/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IG33.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG33/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0079J26S4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0079J26S4/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000025MOX.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000025MOX/nectarandambr-20)


No. 9 - Wand, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002VYE0E/goodmusicguide-20) (x3) | Kubelik/BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005N556/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Giulini, WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GAM/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Barenboim, BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000SDZ/goodmusicguide-20) (x2) | Jochum/Dresden (x2) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SRG7/goodmusicguide-20) | Jochum, Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4GY/goodmusicguide-20) | Haitink, RCO 81 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E2LS/goodmusicguide-20) | Dohnanyi, Philharmonia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0127PVLZI/goodmusicguide-20) (review (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/08/notes-from-2014-salzburg-festival-9.html)) | Furtwängler/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MWYW/goodmusicguide-20) | Mehta/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005N56Z/goodmusicguide-20)  | Walter (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002J58XI/goodmusicguide-20) | Rögner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00LY9WCHK/goodmusicguide-20) | Leitner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00007BHHP/goodmusicguide-20) | Bernstein/WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0053MFES8/goodmusicguide-20) | Rattle/Complete (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007O3QC8K/goodmusicguide-20) | Schuricht/VPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0079J26S4/goodmusicguide-20) Celibidache/MPhil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IG34/goodmusicguide-20) | Kna'/BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001DF6GDQ/goodmusicguide-20)




(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005N556.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005N556/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0002VYE0E.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002VYE0E/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GAM.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GAM/nectarandambr-20)(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004SRG7.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SRG7/nectarandambr-20)


Conductors with Multiple Mentions (=/>5):


1 - HvK      : IIIII IIIII IIII 14 -
2 - Wand     : IIIII IIIII II 12 ˄
3 - Haitink  : IIIII IIIII I 11 (˅)
4 - Böhm     : IIIII IIIII 10 ˅
4 - Celi     : IIIII IIIII 10 ˄
6 - Kubelik  : IIIII III 8 ˅
6 - Jochum   : IIIII III 8 ˄
7 - Stein    : IIIII II 7 -
8 - Chailly  : IIIII I 6 ˄
9 - Dohnanyi : IIIII 5 -
9 - Schuricht: IIIII 5 -
9 - Barenboim: IIIII 5 *
9 - Blomstedt: IIIII 5 *


Orchestras with Multiple Mentions (=/>4):


1 - Wiener Philharmoniker        : IIIII IIIII IIIII IIIII IIIII IIIII (30)
2 - Berliner Philharmoniker      : IIIII IIIII IIIII IIIII IIIII IIII (29)
3 - Staatskapelle Dresden        : IIIII IIIII IIIII (15)
4 - BRSO                         : IIIII IIIII II (12)
5 - Münchner Philharmoniker      : IIIII IIIII I (11)
6 - Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra: IIIII IIII (9)
7 - SWR RSO Stuttgart            : IIIII II (7)
8 - Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchester : IIIII (5)
8 - Cleveland Orchestra          : IIIII (5)
8 - Bruckner Orchester Linz      : IIIII (5)
11 - RSO Berlin                   : IIII (4)
11 - DSO Berlin                   : IIII (4)
11 - SWR Baden-Baden/Freiburg     : IIII (4)



I had to add another Choice Third for myself. Norrington's 1873 (already helpful!) Third is really splendid. Maybe not quite as obviously as his 6th, but still! Gives the SWR Stuttgart another notch in its belt, on the day after it played its last concert at the proms.

Updated in accordance w/TheGSMoeller's latest B9 antics. :-) Now he's got all his choices in, after all.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 30, 2016, 06:02:08 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 30, 2016, 01:44:59 AM
Tally-time

I had to add another Choice Third for myself. Norrington's 1873 (already helpful!) Third is really splendid. Maybe not quite as obviously as his 6th, but still! Gives the SWR Stuttgart another notch in its belt, on the day after it played its last concert at the proms.

Thanks for the tally, Jens. But you didn't add Knapp/Berlin for the 9th?

And it's nice to see another Norrington/Stuttgart fan here, his tenure, and recordings, seem to be controversial, but I find it all revelatory and unique. Their collab on the 7th is also splendid.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on July 30, 2016, 07:11:31 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 30, 2016, 06:02:08 AM
Thanks for the tally, Jens. But you didn't add Knapp/Berlin for the 9th?

And it's nice to see another Norrington/Stuttgart fan here, his tenure, and recordings, seem to be controversial, but I find it all revelatory and unique. Their collab on the 7th is also splendid.

I didn't. I have, arbitrarily and inconsistently, made the cut-off for 'nominatable recordings for "favorite" by one person' at three. If you absolutely insist, because it's a can't-live-without Bruckner 9th, I'll add it, though.  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 30, 2016, 07:20:30 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 30, 2016, 07:11:31 AM
I didn't. I have, arbitrarily and inconsistently, made the cut-off for 'nominatable recordings for "favorite" by one person' at three. If you absolutely insist, because it's a can't-live-without Bruckner 9th, I'll add it, though.  ;)

Oh it doesn't matter, I wasn't aware of the 3 cut off. Knapp can sit this one out for now.

Hey anyone here willing to do some CD swapping? I've got a hand full of Bruckner recordings I don't listen to much and I see a lot I would love to listen to.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 01, 2016, 06:36:33 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 29, 2016, 08:26:55 PM
Finally posting my pick for Bruckner recordings...

No. 0 - Davies/Bruckner Linz*, Chailly/RSO Berlin
No. 1 - Barenboim/Berlin*
No. 2 - Chailly/RCO*, Tintner/NSOoI
No. 3 - Nagano/DSO Berlin (1873)*, Vanska/BBC Scottish (1877), Wand/Cologne (1889)
No. 4 - Celibidache/Munich*, Jochum/Berlin, Vanska/Minn
No. 5 - Eichhorn/Bruckner Linz*, Sinopoli/Dresden, Harnoncourt/Vienna
No. 6 - Blomstedt/Leipzig*, Haitink/Dresden, Norrington/Stuttgart
No. 7 - Venzago/Basel SO*, Matacic/Czech, Davies/Bruckner Linz
No. 8 - Wand/Berlin*, Knappertsbusch/Munich
No. 9 - Jochum/Berlin*, Celibidache/Munich,  Knappertsbusch/Berlin,

Surprisingly the 9th was the hardest to for me to decide, all four I mentioned above are first rate, and deserve to be placed high. I would even include Harnoncourt/Vienna, Giulini/Vienna, Jochum/Dresden to that list.

I knew this would happen...in the quest to hear as many, if not all  :P , of the available Bruckner Symphony recordings my list is constantly updating. I finally got around to hearing Celibidache's take on the 9th, and it's earth shatteringly amazing! It might one day be my favorite 9th, but i'll have to warm up to the slower-than-usual tempi of the second mvt Scherzo/Trio, which in no way lacks power or confidence. The two outer movements, however, are breathtaking, and played flawlessly by the Munich Phil. This performance is cosmic.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61daWJ61uDL.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on August 01, 2016, 07:38:52 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 01, 2016, 06:36:33 AM
I knew this would happen...in the quest to hear as many, if not all  :P , of the available Bruckner Symphony recordings my list is constantly updating. I finally got around to hearing Celibidache's take on the 9th, and it's earth shatteringly amazing! It might one day be my favorite 9th, but i'll have to warm up to the slower-than-usual tempi of the second mvt Scherzo/Trio, which in no way lacks power or confidence. The two outer movements, however, are breathtaking, and played flawlessly by the Munich Phil. This performance is cosmic.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61daWJ61uDL.jpg)
B9 - Celi - MPhil - EMI/Warner (http://amzn.to/2aqd3qZ)

Am I to understand your new list correctly in that it boots off Wand and and Barenboim in favor of adding Celi and retaining Kna'? If so, will make the necessary adjustments to the tally.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 01, 2016, 12:07:41 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 01, 2016, 07:38:52 AM
Am I to understand your new list correctly in that it boots off Wand and and Barenboim in favor of adding Celi and retaining Kna'? If so, will make the necessary adjustments to the tally.  :)

I think so, I didn't see Celibidache on the list on the tally and really wanted to have this one represented. And I hate knocking the Barenboim and Wand off, both excellent, but I know your rules for this  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on August 02, 2016, 02:21:03 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 01, 2016, 12:07:41 PM
I think so, I didn't see Celibidache on the list on the tally and really wanted to have this one represented. And I hate knocking the Barenboim and Wand off, both excellent, but I know your rules for this  ;D

I like both BB's 9th and Wand's 9th, so I make an arbitrary exception and they stay; Celi gets added.  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 02, 2016, 04:00:32 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 02, 2016, 02:21:03 AM
I like both BB's 9th and Wand's 9th, so I make an arbitrary exception and they stay; Celi gets added.  ;)

No argument from me.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on August 02, 2016, 11:47:01 AM
Just listening to a 31.12.1976 Cleveland Orchestra broadcast with William Steinberg conducting the 8th symphony. Ouch !  :o Ouch, ouch, ouch ! ! :o This is mean Bruckner ! Faster and more slashing than most others, including Böhm Zurich or even Steinberg's own Boston or NY broadcasts.

The demons are after him. A great performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on August 11, 2016, 10:29:00 AM
Copied from the What Are You Listening etc thread:

Quote from: Que on August 10, 2016, 10:10:33 AM
I'm experiencing a small Bruckner renaissance at the moment:

[asin]B000002S1I[/asin]
I quite forgot about the existence of  this recording on my shelves.... And it has been been a long time...judging from the dated issue from 1999. It has been reissued since the at least two times.

Anyway, I am enjoying the performance. Though I'm not sure if the slightly sweet and woolly sound of the New Philharmonia Orvhestra is entirely to my liking - I miss the translucent sound of the BRSO and the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig.... Klemperer doesn't dilly dally and I definitely like that, yet he is surprisingly mellow and rounded.
His approach sounds kind of Mahlerian to me...
A very nice, fascinating performance indeed, but I don't think it me it would represent the ultimate in Bruckner.

Q

Currently listening to the Stein WP recording.

About 5 years ago, I went to a Bruckner 6th concert with a friend, Myung-Wun-Chung conducting the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra. His comment was that Chung conducted the 6th as if it was Nielsen !

I'll never get to understand his POV (we met only once since - for another Bruckner concert) and my knowledge of Nielsen (let alone any musical connection between Bruckner and Nielsen) is just not on the same level.

I know 3 different Klemperer performances: 2 on EMI (BRSO and Philharmonia Orchestra) and another one, contemporaneous but wildly different, with the Amsterdam Concertgebouw. All three are spectacularly unlike any other.

I prefer the ones that have no negatives (orchestral playing, interpretional indifference or wild idiosyncrasy, crude engineering). From that bunch I choose those that have a strong profile, a positive character (this is A Major after all!) and a personality that stands above the crowd:

- Keilberth with the mighty Berliner Philharmoniker (Teldec). A Siegfried-like interpretation.
- Bongartz, also in Berlin, but east of the Wall (Berlin Classics). Gruff, unyielding, beautifully played.
- Leitner  with the cultured, noble SWF, Baden-Baden orchestra (+ you get the best Hartmann 6 there is on disc)
- Stein WP on Decca. Elegant, powerful but never exaggerated.

I listen with almost equal relish to Kegel RSO Leipzig, the 2 Klemperer EMI, Rögner (Berlin RSO) the other Leitner (in Basel), Jochum in Munich (BRSO), Wand in Cologne and, when in the mood for a gentler, kinder take on the work, Lopez-Cobos' glowing Cincinnati recording (possibly the opposite of Kegel's dark, turbulent, mighty way).

The 6th is possibly the most open of the corpus to a wide spectum of interpretive ways and visions.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 11, 2016, 10:51:26 AM
Quote from: André on August 11, 2016, 10:29:00 AM



I listen with almost equal relish to ... Jochum in Munich (BRSO), Wand in Cologne and, when in the mood for a gentler, kinder take on the work, Lopez-Cobos' glowing Cincinnati recording (possibly the opposite of Kegel's dark, turbulent, mighty way).

The 6th is possibly the most open of the corpus to a wide spectum of interpretive ways and visions.

Hello Andre' !!!

Yes!!!  Those three are also all-around faves!  Highly recommended!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on August 11, 2016, 11:44:18 AM
 ;)

Indeed, these are among the 6th's most positive, affirmative versions !

This is one of Bruckner's few 'uncomplicated' works ("0", # 5, # 7 are the others). It does not have textual problems, one of the few that Bruckner did not see as needing amending, re-orchestration, cuts or recomposing (same with # 9 of course, but due to the 'finale' problem, this one will forever be among AB's 'Cinderella' works), and one that has no 'cosmic' type of musical message.

Maybe that's why the spectrum of versions tends to favour strict, no-nonsense interpretations, uncomplicated tempo relationships and a bright, shining orchestral sound. The 6th should bring a wide smile when it ends. The EMI Klemperer art cover is anything but conclusive in that sense. Strange as it may seem, I suspect that a different art cover might bring a more positive response to that particular recording. Of course, that precludes portraying Klemp's face on the art cover - who ever saw Klemperer smiling - or anything other than bored and frowning, for that matter ?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on August 25, 2016, 01:30:06 PM
A few minutes ago, on another (French-based) web site,  I posted my impressions of a concert recording of Bruckner's symphony no. 1 by Bernard Haitink and the BRSO (Febr. 1974, some 5 years after his Philips recording).

I don't feel like translating everything I wrote, so here goes the short version: if you come across that live concert transcript (check Bersky's Bruckner web site for details), don't miss it. This version has wings like those of a dragonfly. A real beauty (in very good sound). The essence of the work: lightness and agility, anchored deep in the the classical sound of your favourite mitteleuropa saal.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on August 26, 2016, 01:22:08 AM
Some recent St.Florian impressions

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqOSyyfWEAA0LIS.jpg)
one wrong turn and what a view. #Bruckner #StFlorian
http://ift.tt/2bCGeqK

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqOSx2CWcAAqFRG.jpg)
#Bruckner's organ. His Bombardoni grossi was rumored to be 32' big.
http://ift.tt/2b4yqez

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqOSw-lWcAAEMNv.jpg)
patching session for the #Bruckner 6th that'll be released on Gramola. @brucknertage in #S...
http://ift.tt/2b4yBX8

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqNqoPhXEAANjlF.jpg)
@Brucknertage listening spot perched far above where the #Bruckner sound blends particular... http://ift.tt/2bn7tnh

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqNmEjtWgAAOD8u.jpg)
Dress rehearsal #Bruckner No.6 @ Stift_St_Florian as part of the wonderful @Brucknertage (https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/media)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: jlaurson on August 26, 2016, 07:53:33 AM



Classical CD Of The Week: Bruckner Rising & Wagner Rarity

(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/08/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_PROFIL-HAENSSLER_Wagner-Abendmahl_Bruckner-7_Thielemann_Dresden_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/08/24/classical-cd-of-the-week-bruckner-rising-wagner-rarity/#178363f9c55f (http://bit.ly/CDoftheWeek026)


If I can coax someone into leaving a comment on any of the Forbes CD of the Week reviews, I've got a voucher for the Berlin Phil's Digital Concert Hall (alas valid for only 7 days from the first concert watched) to go their way.
Title: Haitink/EUYO Bruckner 7, live-streamed on Monday
Post by: bhodges on August 28, 2016, 06:39:53 AM
Just found out this concert tomorrow will be live-streamed from Het Concertgebouw:

20.00
European Union Youth Orchestra
Bernard Haitink, conductor

Bruckner: Symphony No. 7

https://www.concertgebouw.nl/live-streams#

--Bruce
Title: Re: Haitink/EUYO Bruckner 7, live-streamed on Monday
Post by: jlaurson on August 28, 2016, 09:48:24 AM
Quote from: Brewski on August 28, 2016, 06:39:53 AM
Just found out this concert tomorrow will be live-streamed from Het Concertgebouw:

20.00
European Union Youth Orchestra
Bernard Haitink, conductor

Bruckner: Symphony No. 7

https://www.concertgebouw.nl/live-streams#

--Bruce

The same, but from Grafenegg (just heard the concert last night), will also be on ORF this week or next. (Though it wasn't so memorable as to be worth tuning in, methinks. Still, a kick-ass orchestra.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on September 10, 2016, 09:56:10 AM
(http://boxset.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/jochum_bruckner_symphony9.jpg)

I'm not a fan of Jochum's Bruckner in his "middle period" (1955-1975/80). I find his conducting often unfocused, disconcerting, sometimes even confused. In his last years however he seems to have found a couple of keys that unlocked the doors to a whole array of new ways to connect the musical paragraphs. Suddenly, everything is brought into intense focus, bringing a solidity to the sound, a cogency to the musical argument that simply was not there previously. Tempi are often slightly more settled, the sound is much weightier, as are the climaxes that are simply crushing.

This Weitblick recording is from July 1983 and emphatically shows the change that was taking place at that time. The orchestra is the Munich Philharmonic, a smoother, denser outfit than the other Munich orchestra (the BRSO). It is recorded in the Herkulessaal, the BRSO's magnificent concert hall (the MPO's change of venue to the Philharmonie am Gasteig was yet to take place).

Suffice to say that this is one of the very best recordings of the work ever, infinitely superior to Jochum's Berlin or Dresden commercial performances.

There is another fantastic Jochum 9th, hailing from his very last concert in January 1987. It also features the MPO (this time in the Philharmonie concert hall). I'm listening to it next.

BTW the test of a dead or old conductor's real identification with a composer is the works he will perform in his last years. In the case of Bruckner, it seems to be the 5th, 7th, 8th and 9th (vide Jochum, Haitink, Wand). As if, in their last years (what else have you got when yous pass the 80 mark?) they want to concentrate on the works they feel they can still add yet another important comma or exclamation mark on a work that will forever remain unattainable in its reach and might.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 12, 2016, 04:42:28 PM
Quote from: André on September 10, 2016, 09:56:10 AM
(http://boxset.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/jochum_bruckner_symphony9.jpg)

I'm not a fan of Jochum's Bruckner in his "middle period" (1955-1975/80). I find his conducting often unfocused, disconcerting, sometimes even confused. In his last years however he seems to have found a couple of keys that unlocked the doors to a whole array of new ways to connect the musical paragraphs. Suddenly, everything is brought into intense focus, bringing a solidity to the sound, a cogency to the musical argument that simply was not there previously. Tempi are often slightly more settled, the sound is much weightier, as are the climaxes that are simply crushing.


Many thanks for this review, Andre'!

Some would say that the only way to perform Bruckner is with "crushing climaxes"!!!   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on November 02, 2016, 10:11:48 AM
A few wonderful recent youtube finds of clips of four great Brucknerians for the Brucknerites here:

Skrowaczewski

Skrowaczewski Bruckner 9 with Frankfurt RSO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az-kHLRQhsk

Interview with Stan about conducting Bruckner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E69j9KaOEEM

Another interview about one of his works and B9 (in German): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsbRPZqcKuU

Skrowaczewski Bruckner 4 with Galicia SO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_BXBiHtIGM

Skrowaczewski Breckner 8 with his Saarbrücken RSO live in Tokyo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjeL9hKOhcE&t=2091s


Kubelik

Kubelik/VPO Bruckner 4 rehearsal footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7D9HMuRMj0&t=80s

Interview with Kubelik about B4 (in German - with Japanese subtitles): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAAO_tFIxzw

Complete performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4eITP7BMyg&t=16s


Asahina

Asahina Chicago SO Bruckner 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwj_57e8T2s&t=79s

Asahina New Japan PO Bruckner 8: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js5pBqpNvZA

Asahina New Japan PO Bruckner 7: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmgMxDLC9qo

Asahina New Japan PO Bruckner 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo9oKghi5oY

Asahina New Japan PO Bruckner 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI_ZUa-0p4U


Wand

Wand BPO Bruckner 9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asFTFaeoVaw

Wand NDR SO Bruckner 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqI6OuIOGbM

Wand NDR SO Bruckner 8 (in four individual clips):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtG3ct-iol0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oxe5SoYgFbs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M49u848iy_w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pzTLk-thrQ

Interview with Wand about Bruckner (in German): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAMjkLKKa7M



Cheers

Misha (who heard Skrowaczewski conduct an absolutely phenomenal Bruckner 8 in Minneapolis two weeks ago and is still glowing from the experience)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on November 02, 2016, 12:03:48 PM
Quote from: André on September 10, 2016, 09:56:10 AM
The orchestra is the Munich Philharmonic, a smoother, denser outfit than the other Munich orchestra (the BRSO). It is recorded in the Herkulessaal, the BRSO's magnificent concert hall (the MPO's change of venue to the Philharmonie am Gasteig was yet to take place).

I don't know this recording, so what I say comes with that caveat, but I find that an odd statement. The BRSO has consistently been the technically superior Munich orchestra (especially before and after Celi's tenure with the MPO when the MPO's level was arguably at its highest thanks to the massive amount of rehearsal time Celi demanded, though still not BRSO caliber). I wonder whether what you're experiencing has more to do with the recording itself and/or the conductor's different approach rather than the orchestra. If you check out any of Kubelik's Bruckner recordings from the early 80s with the BRSO (the studio recordings of 3 & 4 on Sony, the live 3 on audite, the live 8 on BR's own label and the live 9 on Orfeo) you will hear that the BRSO is no less capable of a dense, warm, blended Brucknerian sound, crushing climaxes and breathtaking codas. That just doesn't seem to be what Jochum wanted in in his DG recordings or what DG's engineers captured (or were capable of capturing) at the time.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on November 02, 2016, 01:42:58 PM
I don't see the point of your post if you didn't hear that recording. Or Jochum's previous (1983) 9th with the Munich Philharmonic, which is more widely available. Especially since these 2 performances  were made with Celibidache's orchestra (he was MD 1979-1996), "when the MPO's level was arguably at its highest".

I do own and value highly all the BRSO recordings you mention. I'm not saying one is technically better than the other. I wrote that they sound different.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on November 02, 2016, 02:05:09 PM
I'm surprised by the statement that the MPO is a "denser, smoother outfit" than the BRSO. I've heard tons of recordings of both and have heard the BRSO live, hence that seems like a conclusion drawn from an overly small sample (i.e. the two recordings you mention). I don't need to have heard that MPO Jochum recording to know that your statement disagrees with my experience. That's all.  ;) (There's also the history of the ensembles, with the BRSO having been created by Jochum from hand picked top musicians from all over Germany. The MPO never quite had that caliber.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on November 03, 2016, 06:12:23 AM
I recall our old friend M forever wondered what the Orchestre de Paris might have sounded like back in the 80s when they performed Bruckner for the first time under Barenboim, having had next to no prior experience in that repertoire. Here's the answer (though admittedly in mediocre sound quality):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utKiXkKf4Fg
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on November 04, 2016, 05:53:21 AM
I've had the Venzago coupling of the 4th and 7th for some time, and that recording of the 7th is certainly my favourite.
[asin]B004YXL5XU[/asin]
So I've recently added his recordings of the 2nd and the 8th to my collection, and having listened once to the 8th I think this will become a favourite too.  I generally find most Bruckner recordings a bit shouty and blarey, and Venzago's approach is a very good antidote to that.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on November 29, 2016, 06:21:13 AM
Conductor Gerd Schaller has completed, premiered, and recorded (live) his own completion of the Ninth Symphony's finale.

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/PH16089.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 29, 2016, 06:22:55 AM
Any thoughts on this set?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71OMEAUcilL._SX425_.jpg)

Is it me or every other week there is a new Bruckner cycle...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on November 29, 2016, 06:34:10 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 29, 2016, 06:22:55 AM
Any thoughts on this set?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71OMEAUcilL._SX425_.jpg)

Is it me or every other week there is a new Bruckner cycle...

She's a good Brucknerian, but against some stiff competition and really no match for my favorite cycle: HvK/Berliners.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mahlerian on November 29, 2016, 08:31:16 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 29, 2016, 06:22:55 AM
Any thoughts on this set?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71OMEAUcilL._SX425_.jpg)

Is it me or every other week there is a new Bruckner cycle...

She uses the first versions of the works exclusively for her cycle, so take that as you will.  In the more familiar works she and her orchestra may not have the sheen of Karajan or the power of other more famous Brucknerians, but I have been generally satisfied with what I've heard.  She also has done the only recording of the F minor "Study" Symphony that I've found even remotely interesting or successful.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 29, 2016, 08:35:48 AM
Thanks guys. I have never been a big fan of HVK in these works, more of a Jochum guy myself. The price IS cheap in the Young set but like our friend Orfeo I am trying to be a bit more selective in terms of what I buy.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 29, 2016, 08:58:27 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 04, 2016, 05:53:21 AM
I've had the Venzago coupling of the 4th and 7th for some time, and that recording of the 7th is certainly my favourite.
[asin]B004YXL5XU[/asin]
So I've recently added his recordings of the 2nd and the 8th to my collection, and having listened once to the 8th I think this will become a favourite too.  I generally find most Bruckner recordings a bit shouty and blarey, and Venzago's approach is a very good antidote to that.

Venzago is a mixed bag of (mostly) goodies, I've appreciated all of the recordings, even though the 5th from the cycle takes an extremely open mind. I agree with your above assessment of Venzago's 7th, aukhawk, I've also considered it a favorite, his handling of the finale is unique but beautifully conveyed.


Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 29, 2016, 06:22:55 AM
Any thoughts on this set?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71OMEAUcilL._SX425_.jpg)

Is it me or every other week there is a new Bruckner cycle...

This is a solid set, PerfectWagnerite. I've only listened to it on Spotify, although I did purchase the solo disc of the 2nd from it, had to own a hard copy for my collection. I'm a big enthusiast of Bruckner's original versions and the 2nd's is superior to the revised in my opinion. It gets titled "Symphony of Pauses", and Young really stresses those "pauses". Gorgeous performance.

There are many great cycles of Bruckner out there for sure. And I still stand by my belief that no other composer's works benefits from multiple recordings and interpretations than the music of Bruckner does.


Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 29, 2016, 08:35:48 AM
Thanks guys. I have never been a big fan of HVK in these works, more of a Jochum guy myself. The price IS cheap in the Young set but like our friend Orfeo I am trying to be a bit more selective in terms of what I buy.

Agreed, I have never placed HvK high on my list of top Bruckner interpreters, in fact I've never placed HvK high on any list (don't punish me, GMG'rs).  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 30, 2016, 06:15:12 AM
Thanks guys for all your inputs. I ordered it, if nothing else fresh editions versions of these works.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 11, 2016, 02:26:40 PM
I just came across this: Ashkenazy's orchestration of the Adagio from the String Quintet:

https://www.youtube.com/v/XwyBZiUxFMw&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on December 15, 2016, 12:17:02 PM
Quote from: Cato on December 11, 2016, 02:26:40 PM
I just came across this: Ashkenazy's orchestration of the Adagio from the String Quintet:

There's also one by Skrowaczewski.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm3WFLT7V8c

Not sure how much difference there is, since in each case it's just for string orchestra which is basically an augmented string quintet.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 19, 2016, 07:31:34 PM
I've just tried the experiment of following a suggestion of Robert Simpson's, which is that although the 1873 version of the Third Symphony is, in Simpson's view (and mine) the best one, the last part of the Adagio,the reappearance of the main theme, final climax and coda, is better in the 1878 version.

I got mp3s of two Adagio versions, one 1873 and the other 1878 and cut the end off the former and extracted the final section from the latter and combined the two using audio editing software (very easy).

I'm impressed with it, as it is not something that you are ever likely to hear in the concert hall or on CD, you should try it too.
Title: Live Bruckner 9 (Salzburg 2001) w/Boulez/Vienna
Post by: bhodges on December 29, 2016, 01:26:22 PM
For anyone who loves Boulez's Bruckner 8 (I do), here's a live Bruckner 9, which I didn't know existed, recorded in 2001 at the Salzburg Festival. Happy New Year! (Or for some, "Bruce, you really must hate me."  ;D)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9yVhn1mxzg

--Bruce
Title: Bruckner/Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin on Medici.tv (5, 6, 7 January)
Post by: bhodges on January 05, 2017, 10:57:45 AM
Just found out Medici.tv is showing the first 3 Bruckner symphonies live from the Paris Philharmonie -- today, Friday, and Saturday -- with Daniel Barenboim and the Staatskapelle Berlin:

Today, 3:30 (EST): Bruckner 1
Friday, 3:30: Bruckner 2
Saturday, 3:30: Bruckner 3

--Bruce

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on January 13, 2017, 07:17:25 AM
"If I Were to Play Trombone on a Bruckner Symphony" (http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2013/01/26/if-i-were-to-play-trombone-on-a-bruckner-symphony/), a vivid and quite amusing poem by conductor Kenneth Woods
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 14, 2017, 06:32:54 PM
On Friday BBC Radio 3 broadcast a concert from the Scottish Symphony Orchestra of the Ninth with the SPCM performing version of the finale.

The audience seemed to like it and it worked very well in live performance. Good to see the finale getting an airing now and then.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 20, 2017, 06:39:39 PM
The choice of a Bruckner 3 version is probably the most delicate, difficult and in the end, unsatisfying question that still baffles and divides Bruckner lovers.

Basically, there are 3 versions: 1873, 1878 and 1889. Reminder: a version is one of Bruckner's texts. An edition (for ex: "ed. Nowak" or "ed. Haas") is one of Bruckner's versions with the editor's corrections, amendments etc. Sometimes a "Nowak" and a "Haas" edition are similar, sometimes they differ. That is another problem.

When we talk about 1873, 1877 and 1889 we're basically talking about 3 very different texts. Other composers struggled with their musical thoughts (Prokofiev in his 4th symphony for example), but few composers went to such lengths as Bruckner did in his efforts to give the world his best shot. In itself, that blunt fact should caution us to handle the options at hand with care: after all, each was the product of a great composer's best thoughts and intentions.

Step # 1 is to realize that 1877 is basically the same text as 1889, but with more connecting tissue, esp. in the finale. Therefore the coda of IV doesn't seem to "come from the left field" so much. BTW I think it's a quite fair description of the effect many recordings of 1889 make. Not all, though: some conductors have a better handle on this than others. Hint: they take a slower, more massive approach in the finale.

Step # 2 is to realize that, although very compelling, envelopping - and painstakingly developped - as it is, the 1873 text, sometimes referred to as the "original" version, is also more intractable and difficult to entangle. There is a reason for that: Bruckner had encapsulated and amalgamated into his own compositional idiom various wagnerian quotes and sometimes clumsy bridging material. Eventually he came to the realization that these glued-together "homages to the Master" didn't jive with his own sound world and proceeded to revise the score. The end product was to excise all the Wagner quotes and "reconnect" the bleeding parts.

Step # 3 is to come to terms with the composer's conundrum and realize that there will never be a definitive choice of texts. They all have their merits. I agree that the composer's final solution is unsatisfactory in the finale. Too many cuts. Too many seams. But this is the text that was accepted for decades (until roughly 1980) and for which we have quite a few outstanding recordings: Böhm, Sanderling, Knappertsbusch in Munich and Berlin, Wand in Cologne, Maazel in Munich or Berlin. Lest it sound heretical, I will rate Maazel's Munich recording of the 1889 score (recorded as recently as 2012) as one of the most satisfying Bruckner recordings ever made.

Personally, I think that, in this work, multiple recordings are mandatory. There are outstanding and meh interpretations of each of the composer's takes on this work. Personally I gravitate more toward the "intermediate" 1878 version (sometimes known as the Oeser text). It is more orotund than 1889 and less obese than 1873. Bernard Haitink (RCOA 1963) is the earliest exponent on records. His later, slower, much weightier WP recording (both on Philips) is also a favourite. Kubelik and Solti also recorded it.

Nézet-Séguin's Dresden concert ("original" 1873 version) is highly touted. I haven't heard it. I was in the hall when the ATMA recording engineeers captured his second recording in Montreal a couple of years ago. It's a typical YNS thing: powerful and probing yet highly detailed. A very good interpretation, in splendid sound. Considering the 1873 "original" is still relatively new, it will take some time before that text becomes as familiar to the public as it seem to have become to the younger generation of conductors.

Don't throw the baby with the tub water: all 3 are Bruckner's children !!!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mahlerian on January 21, 2017, 05:52:41 AM
A fine precis, thanks.

Quote from: André on January 20, 2017, 06:39:39 PMStep # 2 is to realize that, although very compelling, envelopping - and painstakingly developped - as it is, the 1873 text, sometimes referred to as the "original" version, is also more intractable and difficult to entangle. There is a reason for that: Bruckner had encapsulated and amalgamated into his own compositional idiom various wagnerian quotes and sometimes clumsy bridging material. Eventually he came to the realization that these glued-together "homages to the Master" didn't jive with his own sound world and proceeded to revise the score. The end product was to excise all the Wagner quotes and "reconnect" the bleeding parts.

That's where I disagree with you.  The quotes are a really essential part of the whole thing, and I think the loss of the Valkyrie sleep motif in the first movement, for example, completely changes the balance of moods that the original had.  In an otherwise consistently tense and driving movement, it was the only spot of pure respite.  Note also the reference to it at the end of the slow movement.

Also, I feel that when he made cuts in the Third, the music he used to paper over the gaps was far less inspired than what was there before, and so the whole work feels trivialized.  I don't feel the original is bloated at all, and I rank it as one of his best symphonies (with the Fifth, Eighth, and Ninth), rather than as one of his worst with the revised versions.

I would agree that the orchestration in the revisions is better and has a more varied sound to it, though.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 21, 2017, 10:58:54 AM
I don't disagree with you. I love that version too. I'm just stating the reasons behind the action.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 21, 2017, 11:24:51 AM
Re the Third, you also have to think of the complete tonal argument going on. Robert Simpson's analysis of this and other Bruckner symphonies is based on the idea of a current of tonality running through the work, the music arriving at last at a well-prepared home key, having arrived at that key, or relatives, at various key points throughout the work.

Now Simpson had perfect pitch and knew what was going on moment by moment in the work, but he also believed that any listener could tell subconsciously whether the music was on an exciting tonal path or a confused one. In the latter case the music would be disjointed or unintelligible.

I don't have perfect pitch, but what Simpson writes has proved true for me, back in the mid 1970s I first heard the 3rd in one of the later versions and thought it was a fascinating sound world, but just a mass of disjointed fragments that didn't add up to a symphony and were quite hard to listen to all the way through. When I first heard the 1873 version it was as if the fragments had been put in the right order at last and you could listen to them as a symphony.

Simpson isn't a first version fundamentalist, for the 4th he recommends the 1878 version, and for the 8th the Haas version, a revised version with a few passages from the earlier version retained. In other works he fully acknowledges that some parts of later versions are better orchestrated or whatever (cf his recommendation above to have the final part of the 1878 version of the 3rd's adagio, which I have constructed). He always prefers the version that has the clearest tonal argument.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mahlerian on January 22, 2017, 06:12:08 AM
Quote from: André on January 21, 2017, 10:58:54 AM
I don't disagree with you. I love that version too. I'm just stating the reasons behind the action.

True enough that Bruckner probably did come to wonder about several aspects of his Third.  The original is actually a relatively difficult work to get to know, and even among Bruckner's works it is a fairly aggressive piece, bold in harmony and unconventional in development.

It's telling that he never did change one of the most unconventional things about the first movement of the work, the fact that the main theme is stated in a fortissimo unison in the home key in the exact center of the development.  He must have known that it would be mistakenly identified in some of the audience's mind as a recapitulation, and they would be confused by the way it proceeded to move away immediately.

With regards to Bruckner's other revisions, I would point to the Fourth as being a fascinating case where instead of merely hacking away material, Bruckner recomposed large swaths of the whole thing (including the entirety of the scherzo).  In that case, the revision is widely considered the more effective piece, but I think both are entirely valid works and worth getting to know.  There were plenty of fascinating touches in the 1874 Fourth that were removed in favor of streamlining the musical argument and making it more straightforward.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 22, 2017, 05:25:47 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on January 22, 2017, 06:12:08 AM
It's telling that he never did change one of the most unconventional things about the first movement of the work, the fact that the main theme is stated in a fortissimo unison in the home key in the exact center of the development.  He must have known that it would be mistakenly identified in some of the audience's mind as a recapitulation, and they would be confused by the way it proceeded to move away immediately.

This also occurs in both later versions.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mahlerian on January 22, 2017, 06:47:32 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 22, 2017, 05:25:47 PM
This also occurs in both later versions.

Yes, that's exactly what I said, that he never did change that aspect.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 22, 2017, 09:30:26 PM
Sorry, misread your post.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mahlerian on January 23, 2017, 06:45:07 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 22, 2017, 09:30:26 PM
Sorry, misread your post.

No problem.  This has been an interesting discussion.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on January 24, 2017, 10:27:46 AM
For anyone interested in thoughts on Barenboim's complete Bruckner cycle at Carnegie Hall so far, here are my reviews of the first three concerts. The second concert, which fell on the evening of Inauguration Day, was especially poignant, given Barenboim's post-concert remarks.

http://seenandheard-international.com/2017/01/a-revelatory-opening-to-barenboims-bruckner-cycle/

http://seenandheard-international.com/2017/01/after-bruckners-second-symphony-barenboim-gives-a-memorable-coda/

http://newyorkclassicalreview.com/2017/01/in-majestic-bruckner-third-barenboim-defies-conventional-wisdom/

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 24, 2017, 11:35:25 AM
Great reviews, Bruce ! From his work with so many different orchestras, one wonders what type of sound Barenboim coaxes from this excellent orchestra at this stage in his life.

I'm sure that, as a Bruckner interpreter, he has come a long way from his initial forays into the composer's works. And yet, I remain much more loyal to his Chicago cycle than the Berlin remake. I'm really curious about this new cycle. I look forward to your next reviews !
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 24, 2017, 11:53:59 AM
Quote from: Brewski on January 24, 2017, 10:27:46 AM
For anyone interested in thoughts on Barenboim's complete Bruckner cycle at Carnegie Hall so far, here are my reviews of the first three concerts. The second concert, which fell on the evening of Inauguration Day, was especially poignant, given Barenboim's post-concert remarks.

http://seenandheard-international.com/2017/01/a-revelatory-opening-to-barenboims-bruckner-cycle/

http://seenandheard-international.com/2017/01/after-bruckners-second-symphony-barenboim-gives-a-memorable-coda/

http://newyorkclassicalreview.com/2017/01/in-majestic-bruckner-third-barenboim-defies-conventional-wisdom/

--Bruce

Next best thing to being there, reading your reviews. Thanks, Bruce. A question: were the concerts well-attended? Did the early symphonies draw in the crowds?

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 24, 2017, 05:18:15 PM
Checking in at Casa Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on January 25, 2017, 05:01:00 AM
Quote from: André on January 24, 2017, 11:35:25 AM
Great reviews, Bruce ! From his work with so many different orchestras, one wonders what type of sound Barenboim coaxes from this excellent orchestra at this stage in his life.

I'm sure that, as a Bruckner interpreter, he has come a long way from his initial forays into the composer's works. And yet, I remain much more loyal to his Chicago cycle than the Berlin remake. I'm really curious about this new cycle. I look forward to your next reviews !

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 24, 2017, 11:53:59 AM
Next best thing to being there, reading your reviews. Thanks, Bruce. A question: were the concerts well-attended? Did the early symphonies draw in the crowds?

Sarge

Thanks, guys! Re: the sound of the orchestra. Last time I heard them was about 10 years ago when Barenboim and Boulez split conducting honors with a complete Mahler cycle (also at Carnegie). The concerts were excellent, overall, but I don't recall the group sounding as good as it does, this time around. Last night's Fifth, for example, might have been the best of the five concerts so far, with no signs of fatigue.

And the concerts have been very well attended. The first three looked to be sold out (though I couldn't be sure -- just a visual check of the hall).

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 25, 2017, 12:45:09 PM
Many thanks to Bruce Brewski for the reviews of the Carnegie Hall concerts: here is another view.

Allow me to offer a review from the Wall Street Journal of Barenboim's current Bruckner cycle being played this week: (CAUTION!  The reviewer makes a few snide comments about Bruckner's occasionally "weak material"  ???   ;)  PLUS: the picture shows him conducting a Mozart piano concerto, but the caption implies he is conducting the Bruckner First Symphony!)     Anyway, in the end, the review is positive!

Quote...Monday's performance of the popular Fourth Symphony, which Bruckner dubbed "Romantic," soared impressively. Mr. Barenboim's full-bodied approach was seamless throughout. The andante, with its subtle funeral-march rhythms, had the right touch of melancholy, with velvety timpani rolls and expansive restatements of brass themes. There was a thrilling progression from the long, solemn sigh—a farewell?—near the end of the andante to the scream of anguish by the brass and strings in the finale, with its somber but ultimately transcendent coda. Other maestros have captured more of the spiritual rebirth that Bruckner, a devout Catholic, may have envisioned here, but Mr. Barenboim and his musicians conveyed its irrepressible joy.


Throughout these concerts, the members of the Staatskapelle demonstrated a high level of involvement and stamina. While the orchestra lacks the pinpoint precision and cushy homogeneity of, say, the Vienna Philharmonic, it has similarly golden-toned flutes, mellow brass and versatile strings, soft or acerbic as the music requires. Mr. Barenboim has been the Staatskapelle's general music director since 1992 and its chief conductor for life since 2000.

About 450 individuals reportedly purchased tickets for five or more concerts of the Bruckner cycle...

See:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/barenboim-does-bruckner-at-carnegie-hall-1485298402 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/barenboim-does-bruckner-at-carnegie-hall-1485298402)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 25, 2017, 12:50:29 PM
Quote from: Brewski on January 25, 2017, 05:01:00 AM

And the concerts have been very well attended. The first three looked to be sold out (though I couldn't be sure -- just a visual check of the hall).

--Bruce

Wonderful!  Is the Ninth Symphony the 3-movement version or the 4-movement completion?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mahlerian on January 25, 2017, 03:10:13 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 25, 2017, 12:50:29 PM
Wonderful!  Is the Ninth Symphony the 3-movement version or the 4-movement completion?

I didn't particularly like Rattle's recording of the most recent completion, but that very well could be the fault of the conductor.  I fully enjoyed the two-piano arrangement I found here:
https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/november15/
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 25, 2017, 10:56:47 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 25, 2017, 12:50:29 PM
Wonderful!  Is the Ninth Symphony the 3-movement version or the 4-movement completion?

As expected, it's the 3-movement version, talking  (https://www.carnegiehall.org/Calendar/2017/1/29/0200/PM/Staatskapelle-Berlin/)even of the "Adagio-Finale" on the website. Coupled -- nicely -- with a Mozart PC. I predict Barenboim trying to wing it and it being a bit of a shamble but that people won't care. (Though Bruce will notice, if it is going to be so.)

Using the 3-movement version is not surprising; any performance version of the last movement is a field of musicological landmines and still much more skeptically treated than, say, a full M10. (Which is rare enough, in concert.)
Since people attend a 9th w/3 movements just the same as one with 4, it's also not surprising on that count. I don't know if the finale works for me; it's certainly not quite convinced me yet, as such. But! The very idea of the Adagio being looked at and treated as a 'finale' raises my ire -- and in fact I want the Finale of the B9 to be performed, not to hear the finale but to better hear the Adagio in its rightly place as a movement leading into something. That way, all that nonsense about "parting statement", "last-will-and-testament-cum-music", this slow-goodbye attitude goes out the window (ideally). The Adagio sounds different that way; more modern, more 'Bruckner; less like the final movement of Mahler's 9th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on January 26, 2017, 11:12:16 AM
Here's my review of the Sixth. (And sorry, have been so busy that my report on Nos. 4 and 5 will come probably tomorrow. Today is occupied by a Boulez tribute concert, which Barenboim has squeezed in between all the Bruckner evenings, with AXIOM performing -- Juilliard's new music ensemble. I'll be writing that up, too, for Musical America.)

http://newyorkclassicalreview.com/2017/01/a-sublime-adagio-forms-the-cornerstone-of-barenboims-bruckner-sixth/

And just found out that tomorrow night's concert, the Seventh, will be broadcast live on WQXR.com, 8:00 EST.

On Sunday afternoon at 2:00 EST, medici.tv will be live-streaming the Ninth, too.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 27, 2017, 06:53:46 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 25, 2017, 10:56:47 PM
As expected, it's the 3-movement version...

Using the 3-movement version is not surprising; any performance version of the last movement is a field of musicological landmines and still much more skeptically treated than, say, a full M10. (Which is rare enough, in concert.)
Since people attend a 9th w/3 movements just the same as one with 4, it's also not surprising on that count. I don't know if the finale works for me; it's certainly not quite convinced me yet, as such. But! The very idea of the Adagio being looked at and treated as a 'finale' raises my ire -- and in fact I want the Finale of the B9 to be performed, not to hear the finale but to better hear the Adagio in its rightly place as a movement leading into something. That way, all that nonsense about "parting statement", "last-will-and-testament-cum-music", this slow-goodbye attitude goes out the window (ideally). The Adagio sounds different that way; more modern, more 'Bruckner; less like the final movement of Mahler's 9th.

Quite true!  I like the Finale in its most recent "multi-musicologist" manifestation: Simon Rattle almost does it the way my brain says it should be done.  I obtained early versions of the sketches from the Library of Congress 50 years ago or so.  Other discoveries and the actual score of the "multi-musicologist" team I have not seen.

In fact I listened to it last night, and am amazed at 1. how quickly it goes by (22 minutes!) and therefore 2. how much I want it to continue! 0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on January 29, 2017, 09:05:00 PM
More Bruckner comments soon, but if you're at all inclined, check out the Ninth from Daniel Barenboim and the Staatskapelle Berlin, from Sunday afternoon at Carnegie Hall, available on medici.tv. It was quite something.

www.medici.tv

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on January 31, 2017, 05:20:14 PM
Here's my review of No. 7, a noisier affair than usual, with an opening rant.  ;D

http://seenandheard-international.com/2017/01/a-rightly-annoyed-barenboim-shows-the-audience-how-to-cough/

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: NY Times Snobs Link Bruckner to Nazism
Post by: Cato on January 31, 2017, 05:34:45 PM
Hard to believe: a "review" with two arrogant snobs complaining how Bruckner is too individualistic, not connected enough to the doubting Thomases in the proletariat, too concerned with Hell and Heaven, and...wait for it...was used by the Nazis to pump up the home front!  At the same time, he is also too "communal," too often puts a triumphant "we" at the center of his music, and is guilty of "pseudo-medieval self-importance," which proves that the writers know absolutely nothing about the nature of Medieval People, whose general lack of ego and self-deprecation is summed up by the simple fact that so many of their creators are unknown, leading to the old joke that the greatest poet/composer/artist of the Middle Ages was named "Anonymous."


See:


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/arts/music/bruckner-barenboim-staatskapelle-berlin-carnegie-hall.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/arts/music/bruckner-barenboim-staatskapelle-berlin-carnegie-hall.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 31, 2017, 05:36:32 PM
Ah, the vagaries of live occasions... ::) Regardless, it must have been quite an evening, musically speaking.

Great review by the way!  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: NY Times Snobs Link Bruckner to Nazism
Post by: Mahlerian on January 31, 2017, 06:28:41 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 31, 2017, 05:34:45 PM
Hard to believe: a "review" with two arrogant snobs complaining how Bruckner is too individualistic, not connected enough to the doubting Thomases in the proletariat, too concerned with Hell and Heaven, and...wait for it...was used by the Nazis to pump up the home front!  At the same time, he is also too "communal," too often puts a triumphant "we" at the center of his music, and is guilty of "pseudo-medieval self-importance," which proves that the writers know absolutely nothing about the nature of Medieval People, whose general lack of ego and self-deprecation is summed up by the simple fact that so many of their creators are unknown, leading to the old joke that the greatest poet/composer/artist of the Middle Ages was named "Anonymous."


See:


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/arts/music/bruckner-barenboim-staatskapelle-berlin-carnegie-hall.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/arts/music/bruckner-barenboim-staatskapelle-berlin-carnegie-hall.html)

Anyone who thinks that the Fifth is less than fully integrated deserves no attention as a serious critic of Bruckner's work.

On top of which, the criticism of Bruckner as less than individualistic is ridiculous.  He was, as a person, not at all interested in politics, and as a musician, he was staunchly individual, declaring his independence not only from Beethoven but also from his idol Wagner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: NY Times Snobs Link Bruckner to Nazism
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 31, 2017, 10:25:51 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 31, 2017, 05:34:45 PM
Hard to believe: a "review" with two arrogant snobs complaining how Bruckner is too individualistic, not connected enough to the doubting Thomases in the proletariat, too concerned with Hell and Heaven, and...wait for it...was used by the Nazis to pump up the home front!  At the same time, he is also too "communal," too often puts a triumphant "we" at the center of his music, and is guilty of "pseudo-medieval self-importance," which proves that the writers know absolutely nothing about the nature of Medieval People, whose general lack of ego and self-deprecation is summed up by the simple fact that so many of their creators are unknown, leading to the old joke that the greatest poet/composer/artist of the Middle Ages was named "Anonymous."
See:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/arts/music/bruckner-barenboim-staatskapelle-berlin-carnegie-hall.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/arts/music/bruckner-barenboim-staatskapelle-berlin-carnegie-hall.html)

I was quite shocked by the seeming celebration of this double-barreled ignorance, myself. It's OK when a NYT/WaPo critic confesses not liking Brahms and/or ignorance about the composer; awareness of shortcomings is healthy and not everyone has to love everything. But when you have no one in the house who has any appreciable Bruckner credentials and then let them just wallow in their lack of response and call that journalism (and be even celebratory of their own ignorance), that's strange indeed.

From Twitter:
QuoteJens F. Laurson ‏@ClassicalCritic:
@BruceHodgesNY @zwoolfe @CorinnadFW A most worrying read! If any air of pomposity was in fact involved, it surely wasn't Bruckner's fault. (https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/826442436188700673)

Bruce Hodges ‏@BruceHodgesNY:
@ClassicalCritic @zwoolfe @CorinnadFW My #Bruckner experiences have been completely different: gentle, contemplative, architectural... (https://twitter.com/BruceHodgesNY/status/826446622078955522)

Jens F. Laurson ‏@ClassicalCritic:
@BruceHodgesNY @zwoolfe @CorinnadFW Validity of any subjective experience aside, that's much more in keeping w/character of A.B.'s music. (https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/826457756538388482)

In reply to Bruce Hodges  Jens F. Laurson ‏@ClassicalCritic:
@BruceHodgesNY @zwoolfe @CorinnadFW After all, never has a more humble composer composed more humble music. (https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/826457991629115392)

In reply to Bruce Hodges  Jens F. Laurson ‏@ClassicalCritic:
@BruceHodgesNY @zwoolfe @CorinnadFW But perhaps it's precisely the humility & self-effacing qualities (& G_d) in there, that make us squirm. (https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/826458264632180738)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: NY Times Snobs Link Bruckner to Nazism
Post by: Cato on February 01, 2017, 03:29:11 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 31, 2017, 10:25:51 PM
I was quite shocked by the seeming celebration of this double-barreled ignorance, myself. It's OK when a NYT/WaPo critic confesses not liking Brahms and/or ignorance about the composer; awareness of shortcomings is healthy and not everyone has to love everything. But when you have no one in the house who has any appreciable Bruckner credentials and then let them just wallow in their lack of response and call that journalism (and be even celebratory of their own ignorance), that's strange indeed.


A Big AMEN to you!   0:)

Quote from: Mahlerian on January 31, 2017, 06:28:41 PM
Anyone who thinks that the Fifth is less than fully integrated deserves no attention as a serious critic of Bruckner's work.

On top of which, the criticism of Bruckner as less than individualistic is ridiculous.  He was, as a person, not at all interested in politics, and as a musician, he was staunchly individual, declaring his independence not only from Beethoven but also from his idol Wagner.

And another Big AMEN for these comments!   0:)

The "article" almost seemed to have an agenda that Bruckner had to be in general pooh-poohed for some reason, that such a series of concerts augured an increasing popularity for Bruckner, which need to be nipped in the womb.  And so we needed to know that the "Smaht Set" at the Times disapproved of such religious bombast and "pseudo-medieval self-importance," a phrase whose ignorance and emptiness smears only its perpetrator with the mud of irrelevance, rather than Bruckner's accomplishments.  (See my earlier comments on it.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on February 01, 2017, 03:49:17 AM
It is amazing that in 2016 (rather than 1966) they could only muster two reviewers who are both not very familiar and not fond of Bruckner (or was that the point? but if one has a choice, why not one "skeptic" and one sympathetic?). Sure, a fanboy might not be ideal as well but they are obviously struggling even to verbalize what they don't like about the music. And it is so full of clichés and spurious associations that one wonders if they could be bothered to prepare for the concerts by listening to other recordings or looking at some scores not to go ignorant and unprepared into such a "marathon". This is really unprofessional.

While I think it is perfectly fine to mention and discuss the "oddness" of Bruckner, his strange relation to his predecessors and Wagner, this, like his personal quirks or his catholicism could at best be a starting point for thinking about and appreciating (or maybe even disagreeing with) his music.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on February 01, 2017, 04:26:44 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 01, 2017, 03:49:17 AM
It is amazing that in 2016 (rather than 1966) they could only muster two reviewers who are both not very familiar and not fond of Bruckner (or was that the point? but if one has a choice, why not one "skeptic" and one sympathetic?). Sure, a fanboy might not be ideal as well but they are obviously struggling even to verbalize what they don't like about the music...
While I think it is perfectly fine to mention and discuss the "oddness" of Bruckner, his strange relation to his predecessors and Wagner, this, like his personal quirks or his catholicism could at best be a starting point for thinking about and appreciating (or maybe even disagreeing with) his music.

I absolutely agree: Every music deserves to be treated, even by its greatest fan, with an empathy for those who might not find it great. The ignorance of love is not much better (though often at least more knowledgeable or perhaps positively infectious) than the ignorance of indifference or dislike. But this clichee-ridden, happily ignorant "conversation" really is shameful. The jarring tie-in with Trump is particularly egregious, since they are themselves wallowing in non-appreciation of things different from their own experiences thus far. It's just a sorry lack of experience for two music critics in 2016 to be so utterly unfamiliar -- and disinterested in -- Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: knight66 on February 01, 2017, 04:38:39 AM
Reading those critics made me wonder whether they write with perception about music that they do like. I drew from it, that, unable to grapple with the music and evaluate it, they pulled in what they felt was damming cultural baggage to explain their dislike. But the baggage mostly was not even Bruckner's baggage. Perhaps they should be made to only use their ears for a while and practice writing about what actually happens in the hall.

I hope some of these concerts surface as recordings. The 5th esp sounded mouthwatering Bruce.

Mike
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on February 01, 2017, 09:48:29 AM
FYI for anyone who missed any, here are my reviews to date, of 1-7. If I hadn't had to deal with a massive water leak in my apartment yesterday, you'd be seeing the others, too -- hopefully tomorrow.

Daniel Barenboim's Bruckner Cycle at Carnegie Hall

No. 1
http://seenandheard-international.com/2017/01/a-revelatory-opening-to-barenboims-bruckner-cycle/

No. 2
http://seenandheard-international.com/2017/01/after-bruckners-second-symphony-barenboim-gives-a-memorable-coda/

No. 3
http://newyorkclassicalreview.com/2017/01/in-majestic-bruckner-third-barenboim-defies-conventional-wisdom/

Nos. 4 and 5
http://seenandheard-international.com/2017/01/torrential-bruckner-fourth-and-fifth-in-barenboims-bruckner-cycle/

No. 6
http://newyorkclassicalreview.com/2017/01/a-sublime-adagio-forms-the-cornerstone-of-barenboims-bruckner-sixth/

No. 7
http://seenandheard-international.com/2017/01/a-rightly-annoyed-barenboim-shows-the-audience-how-to-cough/

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 01, 2017, 10:03:22 AM
Quote from: Brewski on February 01, 2017, 09:48:29 AM
FYI for anyone who missed any, here are my reviews to date, of 1-7.
--Bruce

Many thanks!  Very quickly, concerning the coughing and general stupidity, the Cincinnati Symphony has a recommendation: the management offers "free" cough drops at the doors of the hall to all patrons.  Bowls two feet wide and a foot deep full of monitory cough drops! $:)

Concerning the rudeness, what can we say?  The believers in solipsism are everywhere today! 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on February 01, 2017, 10:19:35 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 01, 2017, 10:03:22 AM
Many thanks!  Very quickly, concerning the coughing and general stupidity, the Cincinnati Symphony has a recommendation: the management offer "free" cough drops at the doors of the hall to all patrons.  Bowls two feet wide and a foot deep full of monitory cough drops! $:)

I first saw such a public service in the Eastman Theater for a Rochester Phil concert.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mahlerian on February 01, 2017, 10:55:50 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 01, 2017, 10:03:22 AMConcerning the rudeness, what can we say?  The believers in solipsism are everywhere today!

If they all meet up, would they even acknowledge that it happened?

Thanks for the reviews, Brewski.  I read the first few, and I'll read the others too before long.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on February 08, 2017, 12:41:29 AM
There is IMHO a great performance of Bruckner's 7th Symphony in this newly released CD. I bought it for Shostakovich's First Symphony as I was curious to hear what the man who conducted the premiere in 1926 made of it. The Bruckner was a broadcast from 1960.
[asin]B016OTKDYI[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on February 23, 2017, 04:03:53 PM



Classical CD Of The Week: Bruckner's End In Salzburg
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/02/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_Signum_Bruckner-9_Philharmonia_Dohnanyi_Salzburg_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg?width=960) (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/02/23/classical-cd-of-the-week-bruckners-end-in-salzburg/#339188451714)

The 2014 Salzburg Festival featured all the Bruckner Symphonies and the Ninth with Christoph von Dohnányi and the Philharmonia Orchestra was the best of the lot.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on February 21, 2017, 10:21:31 PM
Because there is never enough Bruckner in our lives!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C49M3XfXAAA9fHW.jpg)
#morninglistening to glorious #Bruckner:http://amzn.to/2kzqgnS  w/@nedpho_nko on @challenge... http://ift.tt/2kJCvcM (http://a-fwd.to/4gK2YFWl)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 23, 2017, 04:44:10 PM
Found also on Mahler Mania:

Quote from: Cato on February 22, 2017, 02:00:45 PM
It could be that this particular performance is what made everything attractive to your ears! 0:)

Allow me to suggest something (which I have never seen in notes to recordings nor in any other books on Mahler and Bruckner, possibly because the following is just wrong  ;)  ), but to my ears the slow movements of the symphonies of Bruckner - in a collective sense - are an influence in Mahler's Third Symphony, especially for the final movement.  I think in particular of the slow movement for Bruckner's Sixth Symphony, with its little funeral march, and of the Seventh, but possibly others  influenced Mahler as well here.


Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2017, 04:25:16 PM
Your ears are far better versed in all these symphonies, so I lend you credence gladly. Whence else had he gotten the nerve for a 25-minute Adagio? That was no casual invention.

Herbert Blomstedt on Bruckner and Mahler at c. 6:30, but the entire interview is worth your time!

"For me, Bruckner is more enigmatic than Mahler."

https://www.youtube.com/v/issTb4oM3O8&feature=share
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on February 24, 2017, 08:38:49 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 23, 2017, 04:44:10 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/issTb4oM3O8&feature=share

When the maestro said he was in his "Bach, Beethoven quartets period," that hit home!  Not that there's anything wrong with learning to love the focus and clarity of these, but, yes, when my ears were first exposed to Mahler (and probably to Bruckner), they were very different, and therefore inferior . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on February 24, 2017, 08:42:40 AM
Beautiful insight about Lenny: "He was not a showman, he was a naturally theatrical personality . . . ."
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 24, 2017, 08:57:41 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 24, 2017, 08:42:40 AM
Beautiful insight about Lenny: "He was not a showman, he was a naturally theatrical personality . . . ."

Which (I think) allowed him to become that bridge for many born after WW II between so-called popular music and classical.  He came across on television as "natural" and not as a phony, or somebody trying to uphgrade the peasants. 0:)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 24, 2017, 08:38:49 AM
When the maestro said he was in his "Bach, Beethoven quartets period," that hit home!  Not that there's anything wrong with learning to love the focus and clarity of these, but, yes, when my ears were first exposed to Mahler (and probably to Bruckner), they were very different, and therefore inferior . . . .

Ah, yes!  How many periods or phases have we all gone through!? ;)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on February 24, 2017, 09:15:18 AM
Indeed!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 02, 2017, 05:07:15 PM

Review: Eternal Youth -- Gustav Mahler Youth Orchestra At 30
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/04/Gustav-Mahler-Jugendorchester_cCosimo-Filippini_Excerpt2_laurson_1800-1200x446.jpg?width=960)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/04/02/review-eternal-youth-gustav-mahler-youth-orchestra-at-30/#6fa07f6e5720 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/04/02/review-eternal-youth-gustav-mahler-youth-orchestra-at-30/#6fa07f6e5720)

Blowsy Bruckner, Gerhaher Gorgeousness

QuoteThe best youth orchestras – and this may well not be a secret anymore – are among the most enjoyable orchestras you can listen to: Technically at the top of the game and motivated from ponytail to pinky; ability and willingness in ready harmony at a level and consistency that cannot be expected from all but a handful of top-notch orchestras. The only thing that can possibly derail them is music that works primarily off a arcane emotional response to life – and a conductor who lacks profundity and the natural authority that comes from musical and personal authenticity. In those cases youth orchestras are prone to have a more difficult time. Incidentally Bruckner – to move from the general to the particular – is one of those composers. And the conductor on this occasion, namely the Vienna stop of the Gustav Mahler Youth Orchestra's 30th Anniversary Easter Tour, was Daniel Harding...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 16, 2017, 03:09:03 AM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 15, 2017, 06:27:39 PM
Yep, Bruckner is where it's at!  ;D

Welcome, to The Abbey.  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 19, 2017, 03:49:12 PM
According to one source, Eugen Jochum in 1986 with the Concertgebouw:

https://www.youtube.com/v/IQM8C0fOScQ
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 22, 2017, 01:15:56 PM
Comments from a Bruckner FaceBook page - along with comments from YouTube - say that this performance by Segerstam is one for the ages:

https://www.youtube.com/v/eIV0M6oL9Qo
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on April 22, 2017, 01:26:59 PM
Quote from: Cato on April 22, 2017, 01:15:56 PM
Comments from a Bruckner FaceBook page - along with comments from YouTube - say that this performance by Segerstam is one for the ages:
I'm not certain if it's the same performance, but the recording by him of the work that I heard some time ago is certainly that (that Youtube video appears to be deleted now).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: relm1 on April 22, 2017, 04:48:19 PM
Quote from: Cato on April 22, 2017, 01:15:56 PM
Comments from a Bruckner FaceBook page - along with comments from YouTube - say that this performance by Segerstam is one for the ages:

https://www.youtube.com/v/eIV0M6oL9Qo

I just listened to this performance.  It is a somewhat Mahlerian interpretation with grand sweeping gestures and more questioning/philosophical.  Quite solid with much rubato but not particularly forceful in the way I think Maazel was with Berlin Phil and I think Maazel better served the drama musically with his intense approach.

Fore example (sorry that I never figured out how to embed video) check out the timpani/brass in Maazel/Berlin:
https://youtu.be/SyTpkMhLRVo?t=22

and compare to Segerstam/Sinfónica de Galicia
https://youtu.be/eIV0M6oL9Qo?t=3860

The level of intensity in Maazel is exhilarating but with Segerstam, it is more questioning. 

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 22, 2017, 05:06:24 PM
Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/v/SyTpkMhLRVo&feature=youtu.be&t=22

And:

https://www.youtube.com/v/eIV0M6oL9Qo&feature=youtu.be&t=3860
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 26, 2017, 01:39:34 PM
I found this today on the Bruckner Society website: a gratis download of a work by Johann David from the 1930's:

QuoteJohann Nepomuk David is regarded, next to Max Reger, as one of the foremost exponents of contrapuntal tradition in the 20th century. The Introitus, Choral and Fugue for Organ and Nine Wind Instruments (two trumpets, four horns and three trombones) on a Theme by Anton Bruckner dates from 1939. The theme was jotted down by Bruckner while he was giving an organ recital in 1884. This highly sophisticated composition, remarkable for its thematic variety and intricate web of permutations and interconnections, is yet full of resplendent harmonies and hence a fitting tribute to Anton Bruckner.



https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/April17/ (https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/April17/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 26, 2017, 01:53:34 PM
Quote from: Cato on April 26, 2017, 01:39:34 PM
I found this today on the Bruckner Society website: a gratis download of a work by Johann David from the 1930's:



https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/April17/ (https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/April17/)

Thanks for the link.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 26, 2017, 02:22:35 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 26, 2017, 01:53:34 PM
Thanks for the link.

Sarge

Sure no problem!  It is an interesting website, which offers access to scholarly journals from the Bruckner Society of America and many other things.

One curiosity: another download, this one a performance of an orchestration exercise from one of Bruckner's notebooks:].  It is Bruckner's orchestration of the first movement of Beethoven's Opus 13 Piano Sonata #8.

https://www.abruckner.com/discography/otherorchestracomp/orchestration_lvb/ (https://www.abruckner.com/discography/otherorchestracomp/orchestration_lvb/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 26, 2017, 03:05:00 PM
Quote from: Cato on April 26, 2017, 02:22:35 PM
One curiosity: another download, this one a performance of an orchestration exercise from one of Bruckner's notebooks:].  It is Bruckner's orchestration of the first movement of Beethoven's Opus 13 Piano Sonata #8.

https://www.abruckner.com/discography/otherorchestracomp/orchestration_lvb/ (https://www.abruckner.com/discography/otherorchestracomp/orchestration_lvb/)

Very interested in hearing this (the Pathétique is my favorite Ludwig van Sonata). I clicked on the link, and everything on that page, but could not find a download link. What's the secret?

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 26, 2017, 11:17:12 PM
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/04/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_REMY-BALLOT_BRUCKNER_3_St-Florian_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg?width=960)
Classical CD Of The Week: The Second Coming Of Celibidache
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/04/23/classical-cd-of-the-week-the-second-coming-of-celibidache/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/04/23/classical-cd-of-the-week-the-second-coming-of-celibidache/#4d42c2ab7a84)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 27, 2017, 08:00:47 AM
Quote from: Cato on April 26, 2017, 02:22:35 PM
Sure no problem!  It is an interesting website, which offers access to scholarly journals from the Bruckner Society of America and many other things.

One curiosity: another download, this one a performance of an orchestration exercise from one of Bruckner's notebooks:].  It is Bruckner's orchestration of the first movement of Beethoven's Opus 13 Piano Sonata #8.

https://www.abruckner.com/discography/otherorchestracomp/orchestration_lvb/ (https://www.abruckner.com/discography/otherorchestracomp/orchestration_lvb/)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 26, 2017, 03:05:00 PM
Very interested in hearing this (the Pathétique is my favorite Ludwig van Sonata). I clicked on the link, and everything on that page, but could not find a download link. What's the secret?

Sarge

It seems to be a broken link! :'(  I will see if I can contact Mr. Berky, who is in charge of the website.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 11:10:57 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 26, 2017, 03:05:00 PM
the Pathétique is my favorite Ludwig van Sonata

That makes two of us.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2017, 01:10:48 PM
Quote from: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 11:10:57 AM
That makes two of us.

Two with exquisite taste  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 01:31:13 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2017, 01:10:48 PM
Two with exquisite taste  ;D

That goes without saying.  :laugh:

On topic: my favorite Bruckner Symphonies (ie, they kept my attention from beginning to end) are 1 and 4 with Jochum / SOBR (honestly, the only versions I've heard) --- where should I go next, and with whom?  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2017, 01:35:41 PM
Quote from: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 01:31:13 PM


That goes without saying.  :laugh:

On topic: my favorite Bruckner Symphonies (ie, they kept my attention from beginning to end) are 1 and 4 with Jochum / SOBR (honestly, the only versions I've heard) --- where should I go next, and with whom?  :)

Which ones didn't hold your attention? I need to know that before making any recommendations. I will say the Third is my favorite but not many would agree.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 01:42:39 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2017, 01:35:41 PM
Which ones didn't hold your attention? I need to know that before making any recommendations.

Frankly, all other than 1 and 4 --- coincidentally or not, these are the two I've also heard live. And: from the 1st I absolutely love the Scherzo, while the 4th I absolutely love as a whole.

I have no problem whatsoever with Mahler, but Bruckner is a hard nut for me.  :(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on April 27, 2017, 01:46:33 PM
Quote from: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 01:42:39 PM
Frankly, all other than 1 and 4 --- coincidentally or not, these are the two I've also heard live. And: from the 1st I absolutely love the Scherzo, while the 4th I absolutely love as a whole.

I have no problem whatsoever with Mahler, but Bruckner is a hard nut for me.  :(

If 1 can hold your attention, they all should!

Try the Seventh with Herreweghe.
And the Second and Third with Karajan.
Or the Sixth with anyone other than Tintner or Colin Davis.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on April 27, 2017, 01:50:00 PM
Quote from: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 01:42:39 PM
Frankly, all other than 1 and 4 --- coincidentally or not, these are the two I've also heard live. And: from the 1st I absolutely love the Scherzo, while the 4th I absolutely love as a whole.

I have no problem whatsoever with Mahler, but Bruckner is a hard nut for me.  :(

Both Bruckner and Mahler grew on me beginning with their nos 1 & 4.
Then I got hooked on Mahler songs, the Finale of his 2nd, and, after attending a live performance of no 5, the rest of the entire 'package'.

Bruckner took a bit longer, but a live concert of no 9 (Reinbert de Leeuw conducting a Dutch youth orchestra) helped immensely.
I learned to love no 6, and the rest followed after that.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 01:50:56 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 27, 2017, 01:46:33 PM
If 1 can hold your attention, they all should!

Try the Seventh with Herreweghe.
And the Second and Third with Karajan.
Or the Sixth with anyone other than Tintner or Colin Davis.

You always hold my attention, Jeffrey!

Duly noted, thanks.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on April 27, 2017, 02:02:18 PM
Quote from: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 01:50:56 PM
You always hold my attention, Jeffrey!

Duly noted, thanks.

I would like to recommend no 7 with Hans Rosbaud conducting the Südwestfunk Orchester of Baden-Baden.
And for no 9 maybe the rather idiosyncratic recording of Bernstein. But if you like his Mahler, you might appreciate his Bruckner, too.

https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-7-Major/dp/B0007GIZF4/?tag=goodmusicguid-21
https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-9-Anton/dp/B000001GFW/?tag=goodmusicguid-21

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 02:03:38 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 27, 2017, 01:50:00 PM
Both Bruckner and Mahler grew on me beginning with their nos 1 & 4.

The first Mahler I've ever heard was S3, with Vaclav Neuman / Czech PO and I was spellbound --- he instantly replaced Beethoven as my favorite composer, but in my defence it should be noted that I was 14 at the time.  ;D

Quote
Then I got hooked on Mahler songs,

The first Mahler songs I've heard was DKWH --- love at first sight, followed by RL and DKL in this order --- ditto. I've yet to hear DLVDE.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2017, 02:04:57 PM
Quote from: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 01:42:39 PM
I have no problem whatsoever with Mahler, but Bruckner is a hard nut for me.  :(

That was my experience as well. I was immediately drawn to Mahler but Bruckner eluded me for about five years. The Fourth (Klemp, a recommendation by a good friend) was my eventual way into the music. After that, the rest was easy.

I do agree with Jeffrey: if you like the First, the rest shouldn't be a problem (the First is my least favorite, actually). But obviously, it is a problem. So what to recommend? I have no idea ;D  Seriously, try to hear the others live. Hearing Cleveland do the Third was a revelation. I even wrote a poem about that experience (which The Bruckner Journal published).

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2017, 02:15:12 PM
Quote from: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 02:03:38 PMI've yet to hear DLVDE.

:o :o :o  Really? Remedy that soon! It may be Mahler's masterpiece. Try to hear Haitink and Baker...or Kubelik and Baker.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 02:21:34 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2017, 02:04:57 PM
Hearing Cleveland do the Third was a revelation. I even wrote a poem about that experience

Wow! I'd really and in all earnest be interested in reading it, please, please, please! (and I'm sure it's not only I).

You mean Cleveland / Szell, right?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 02:23:03 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2017, 02:15:12 PM
:o :o :o  Really? Remedy that soon! It may be Mahler's masterpiece. Try to hear Haitink and Baker...or Kubelik and Baker.

Will do and report.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2017, 02:30:49 PM
Quote from: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 02:21:34 PM
Wow! I'd really and in all earnest be interested in reading it, please, please, please! (and I'm sure it's not only I).

You mean Cleveland / Szell, right?

Unfortunately, not Szell (I do own his recording, and it's a favorite). It was Aldo Ceccato that night at Severance. He was a frequent guest conductor with the Cleveland after Szell's death. His Third was sensational. The poem:

THE D MINOR, THIRD VERSION, NOWAK

for David "Pete" Petersen

Conducting the Cleveland, Aldo Ceccato, baton
like a sword, was charging his way through the finale
of Bruckner's symphonic cathedral to Wagner
like it was the gallop from Rossini's Tell

(Latin temperament irrepressible, allowing
no monumental peasant piety nor Ländler lope)
when I noticed the Afro among the three thousand
palefaces in attendance at Severance:

as the coda approached, that majestic moment
when trumpet theme returns for a major recycling,
the white woman beside him tapped his shoulder,
alerting. He tensed forward, straining to hear,

fanfares rallentando and...wholly Hallelujah!!!
Cleveland explodes!
braying horns, tuba and trombones erupting,
trumpets machine-gunning triplets.
   
I was showered in brass shrapnel, fifths,
goose bumps; a silly grin spreading. And
black and white
beamed enormously at each other

as he shook his head yes! O yes! up and down,
up and down, yes! and yes! And yes,
I thought amazed, this ain't Miles or Marvin,
stereotypes burning away in Brucknerian blaze.
   
Yes. . .make color and culture irrelevant,
build your Gothic structure of sound,
hurl your themes toward heaven like spires
and stride, augmented, through the macrocosm, Anton: sainted!

And let your majors and minors linger in my mind...



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 02:36:28 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2017, 02:30:49 PM
Unfortunately, not Szell (I do own his recording, and it's a favorite). It was Aldo Ceccato that night at Severance. He was a frequent guest conductor with the Cleveland after Szell's death. His Third was sensational. The poem:

THE D MINOR, THIRD VERSION, NOWAK

for David "Pete" Petersen

Conducting the Cleveland, Aldo Ceccato, baton
like a sword, was charging his way through the finale
of Bruckner's symphonic cathedral to Wagner
like it was the gallop from Rossini's Tell

(Latin temperament irrepressible, allowing
no monumental peasant piety nor Ländler lope)
when I noticed the Afro among the three thousand
palefaces in attendance at Severance:

as the coda approached, that majestic moment
when trumpet theme returns for a major recycling,
the white woman beside him tapped his shoulder,
alerting. He tensed forward, straining to hear,

fanfares rallentando and. . .wholly Hallelujah!!!
Cleveland explodes!
braying horns, tuba and trombones erupting,
trumpets machine-gunning triplets.
   
I was showered in brass shrapnel, fifths,
goose bumps; a silly grin spreading. And
black and white
beamed enormously at each other

as he shook his head yes! O yes! up and down,
up and down, yes! and yes! And yes,
I thought amazed, this ain't Miles or Marvin,
stereotypes burning away in Brucknerian blaze.
   
Yes. . .make color and culture irrelevant,
build your Gothic structure of sound,
hurl your themes toward heaven like spires
and stride, augmented, through the macrocosm, Anton: sainted!

And let your majors and minors linger in my mind...

Many thanks! Lots of things to absorb and digest --- Rossini as a reference to Bruckner, hmmm... Now I'll really have to listen attentively to this darned B3!  :laugh: --- will do and report asap.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2017, 02:42:10 PM
Quote from: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 02:36:28 PMRossini as a reference to Bruckner, hmmm... Now I'll really have to listen attentively to this darned B3!  :laugh:

Well, just be aware of poetic license  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 02:55:22 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2017, 02:42:10 PM
Well, just be aware of poetic license  ;D

Poetic license qua, poetic license là, poetic license su, poetic license giù... bravo, bravissimo, fortunatissimo... Qua la fanfara... Presto la coda... a te licenza non mancherà...

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 28, 2017, 06:49:10 AM
Quote from: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 01:42:39 PM
Frankly, all other than 1 and 4 --- coincidentally or not, these are the two I've also heard live. And: from the 1st I absolutely love the Scherzo, while the 4th I absolutely love as a whole.

I have no problem whatsoever with Mahler, but Bruckner is a hard nut for me.  :(

I have told the story earlier, but just in case...

Many moons ago, I happened to see the score of the Nowak Edition of the Bruckner Seventh at my public library in Dayton (state of Ohio).

As soon as I began mentally hearing the opening pages of the work, I thought: "I MUST HEAR THIS!!!"  And fortunately the library was in the process of purchasing all the Bruckner symphonies on DGG with of course Saint  0:)  Eugen Jochum !   ;)

I absorbed everything and loved everything as soon as I heard it!  The First Symphony is such a whirlwind of emotions: it is often ignored in lists, but I have always thought it was one of the best of the nine!

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2017, 02:30:49 PM
Unfortunately, not Szell (I do own his recording, and it's a favorite). It was Aldo Ceccato that night at Severance. He was a frequent guest conductor with the Cleveland after Szell's death. His Third was sensational. The poem:

THE D MINOR, THIRD VERSION, NOWAK

for David "Pete" Petersen

Conducting the Cleveland, Aldo Ceccato, baton
like a sword, was charging his way through the finale
of Bruckner's symphonic cathedral to Wagner
like it was the gallop from Rossini's Tell

(Latin temperament irrepressible, allowing
no monumental peasant piety nor Ländler lope)
when I noticed the Afro among the three thousand
palefaces in attendance at Severance:

as the coda approached, that majestic moment
when trumpet theme returns for a major recycling,
the white woman beside him tapped his shoulder,
alerting. He tensed forward, straining to hear,

fanfares rallentando and...wholly Hallelujah!!!
Cleveland explodes!
braying horns, tuba and trombones erupting,
trumpets machine-gunning triplets.
   
I was showered in brass shrapnel, fifths,
goose bumps; a silly grin spreading. And
black and white
beamed enormously at each other

as he shook his head yes! O yes! up and down,
up and down, yes! and yes! And yes,
I thought amazed, this ain't Miles or Marvin,
stereotypes burning away in Brucknerian blaze.
   
Yes. . .make color and culture irrelevant,
build your Gothic structure of sound,
hurl your themes toward heaven like spires
and stride, augmented, through the macrocosm, Anton: sainted!

And let your majors and minors linger in my mind...



Excellent work, Sarge!  And "Yes!" to the incredible conductor Aldo Ceccato of the good ol' days!  I recall listening to a good number of works conducted by him with various orchestras.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on April 28, 2017, 09:26:20 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/616NK0uppCL._SL1000_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51XD%2BhRRK9L.jpg)

Any thoughts on these? Bruckner with French orchestras, especially mid century ones, is hen's teeth territory.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 28, 2017, 09:38:21 AM
Quote from: Draško on April 28, 2017, 09:26:20 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/616NK0uppCL._SL1000_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51XD%2BhRRK9L.jpg)

Any thoughts on these? Bruckner with French orchestras, especially mid century ones, is hen's teeth territory.

I cannot say specifically, only that Carl Schuricht was one of the great Bruckner conductors.  I had a performance of his on the old Angel/Seraphim label with the Ninth Symphony (maybe with the Vienna Philharmonic (?)) and it was a great one!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on April 28, 2017, 12:18:52 PM
John Berky's site lists 9 versions of the 7th under Schuricht. I own 3 of them (Berlin, Hamburg and The Hague). The latter is the least proficient and least known of these outfits, but to my ears it beats the others in characterfulness, and the conductor takes the work by the throat from the first bars and never lets go. It's all a bit raucous and certainly unrefined, but it remains one of my favourites.

Bruckner 7 under Schuricht with a French orchestra is definitely something I'm curious about. But I'd check excerpts first, both for the playing and sound quality.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Drasko on April 28, 2017, 12:29:08 PM
Quote from: Cato on April 28, 2017, 09:38:21 AM
I cannot say specifically, only that Carl Schuricht was one of the great Bruckner conductors.  I had a performance of his on the old Angel/Seraphim label with the Ninth Symphony (maybe with the Vienna Philharmonic (?)) and it was a great one!

I absolutely agree about Schuricht. One of great Bruckner conductors. I have multiple recordings of his Bruckner, 3, 5, 8 & 9 with the VPO, 7 with the BPO and the Hague Orchestra, 9 with Berlin State Opera. While I can't really say that I'm fan of any of his 9ths, his VPO 8th and both BPO and Hague 7ths are favorites.

But here I'm more interested in the French connection. Recordings of Bruckner with French orchestras are very rare. I know of only four official releases:

4th - Orchestre d'Paris / Eschenbach (2003, Ondine)
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Ondine/ODE10302

5th - French National Orchestra / Matacic (1979, Naive)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bruckner-Symphony-No-5-Anton/dp/B0007DDR14

7th - French National Orchestra / Jochum (1980, INA)
https://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvres-Brahms-Bruckner-Wagner-Multi-Compositeurs/dp/B00004VN29

7th - Strasbourg Philharmonic / Guschbauer (1989, Erato)
https://www.amazon.fr/Sinfonie-Guschlbauer-Theodor-Bruckner-Anton/dp/B00002400D

The oldest of which is 1979, and I'm really curious how Bruckner sounds played by mid 20th century French orchestras with their unblending watery brass and nasal winds. These Schuricht 7ths are from 1963 and 1956 respectively and since both are live I'm bit wary of sound quality (especially given the Japanese prices).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on April 29, 2017, 09:32:44 AM
Crosspost from the main listening thread

Last night, I started this set with the First. Currently, I am listening to the Second.
[asin]B01ET5D54Y[/asin]
Heretofore, Karajan has been the only conductor who has produced performances in which I am interested out of B1-B3.  He now has a companion in Gielen, at least for the First and Second.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61qOPStAGSL.jpg)
Curiously, this studio recording from 1968 was never released before. Neither was the performance of the First, although a bit less curiously there (recorded in live performances in 2009).  That fact may make this set a must buy for Cato, Andre, and other Brucknerites.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on April 29, 2017, 09:41:52 AM
Gielen is a master brucknerite in 5 and 7. From the timings you can tell these are swift performances. Few can touch him there. His 8th on the contrary is lumbering and bloated. It's hard to believe this 5th and this 8th are from the same conductor. His 6th is very good. I don't have the others. Maybe the disappointment with the 8th stopped me in my tracks.  ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on April 29, 2017, 09:47:57 AM
Quote from: André on April 29, 2017, 09:41:52 AM
Gielen is a master brucknerite in 5 and 7. From the timings you can tell these are swift performances. Few can touch him there. His 8th on the contrary is lumbering and bloated. It's hard to believe this 5th and this 8th are from the same conductor. His 6th is very good. I don't have the others. Maybe the disappointment with the 8th stopped me in my tracks.  ::)

The Eighth in this set is the other never-before-released recording (live, Baden 2007) in this set, so it may be better...although the 95 minute timing certainly allows for lumbering and bloating.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on April 29, 2017, 10:05:32 AM
I see. The 8th I have is with the Baden-Baden Orchestra, not the Saarbrücken one. Curiously, it is coupled with Morton Feldman's Coptic Light (the only work of this composer I ever heard). The Bruckner is some 83 minutes long. It's in the same range as Karajan's performances (which I generally find also bloated and protracted, although it is undoubtedly grand and impressive)  ;D.

Let us know what you think of the 5th !
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on April 29, 2017, 11:28:04 PM
This is the 1887 version which is ~200 bars longer than the 1890 one (on the Coptic Light recording), so timings are going to be longer for that reason.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on April 30, 2017, 02:06:53 AM
Of the ones I have heard, I agree that the 5th and 7th are the best of Gielen's Bruckner. These two as well as the 4th (first version, so this is certainly also interesting because there are not so many recordings, I don't like that version regardless of conductor, though), 8th (the more common version with the SWF Orchestra) and 9th had been on CD on Intercord in the early 1990s. The 3rd and 6th  appeared on Hänssler. As shown the 3rd is also an alternative version (I was not too fond of this recording either). I have not heard the 9th which has been oop for a long time. At 37 EUR the set would be worth it for 5,6,7 and the early version of the 4th (for those interested in it) with the rest as a bonus.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on April 30, 2017, 11:46:51 AM
I wasn't aware that Gielen had recorded both the first and last versions of the 8th. As well as those of the 2nd and 4th. Not many conductors have done that (Rozhdestvensky comes to mind, having recorded multiple versions/editions of most of the works - AFAIK, he's the most 'complete' Bruckner conductor on discs). After careful comparison in the Bruckner Discography (John Berky's web site) I notice that the more recent Gielen discs are of the original versions of the 2nd, 4th and 8th symphonies. 

Symphonies 2, 3, 4 and 8 exist in "first versions" that are substantially different (generally longer, more diffuse, but no less interesting for that) than the later pruned, concentrated, reorchestrated, excised, butchered last versions (take your pick in terms of the appropriate description, but that is not my POV: while I wallow in the unalduterated brucknerian first thoughts,
I ultimately consider his last editorial views as those that convey his musical thoughts best - except in the case of the 1st).

But that shouldn't account for the longer timings. The timing of this Gielen 1887 8th is 20 minutes over Inbal's. And a good 8 minutes over Tintner's very measured versions (with the National Youth Orchestra substantially more interesting than the commercial Naxos issue IMHO) which I also own. I also note that Gielen's 1993 reading of the 9th symphony (EMI/Intercord) and 2013 (the present set), both of the same text are quite different in terms of tempi/timings (58 minutes in 1993 vs 67 in 2013). 

Clearly, the conductor's view of either the the Bruckner symphonies - in terms of the versions (the actual text) - or the interpretation of the scores differs markedly from one disc to another. It thus make for a very interesting, enterprising, but editorially very confused "complete set". A clear case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde, something like Klemperer's mid 50s Bruckner or Mahler in comparison to his mid-to-late sixties interpretations.

The fact that the rarely recorded original 2nd, 4th and 8th (but not the 3rd) are mixed with last versions of the other symphonies should not deter anyone from acquiring this set. Gielen in Bruckner (as in Mahler, Schönberg and Beethoven) is a giant among interpreters.

I do not expect any conductor to be "primus inter pares' in all the symphonies (same as with Beethoven and Mahler complete sets). But, by all means, a "final version" of these symphonies should be at hand for comparison. It matters not one whit whether the interpretation is fast or slow. There will be no winner. "Bruckner vs Bruckner" means that Bruckner will win. Every time.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 30, 2017, 04:34:26 PM
Courtesy of Todd from "What Are You Listening?"

Quote from: Todd on April 30, 2017, 02:18:42 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61twHwJ-H0L._SS325.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61F5aoaqOsL._SS325.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41UFX7zh6tL._SS325.jpg)


Three Ninths from Barenboim.  The new recording got first airing in this comparative matchup.  This recording has a bit more brass bite than preceding recordings in this cycle, and that helps things, but not as much as Barenboim's control of tempo and pacing and climaxes.  Though only a minute or two shorter than his prior two recordings, this one is notably more intense, especially when compared to the Chicago recording.  The piece moves forward relentlessly at all times.  It's an hour of nightmares of cataclysm, very much modelled on Furtwangler's approach.  Barenboim doesn't achieve what Furtwangler does, but it is in better sound.  The Scherzo has nearly the same teeth-gnashing intensity as Jansons' take on DSCH 4, and the Adagio is taut and tense.  The low frequencies, especially the double basses and cellos, add a physicality and imposing nature to the music.  The Chicago recording followed, and though the brass definitely shine hear, and overall executive precision is greater, the playing is more conventional and less intense.  The Teldec recording is closer in spirit and style to the newest recording, though it must cede to the Staatskapelle Berlin in terms of intensity and overall satisfaction. 

Of the three cycles, I'd have to do A/B/Cs for the other symphonies, but the Chicago cycle is probably my favorite, though the First and Ninth in this newest one are the big attractions.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 01, 2017, 11:36:32 AM
Quote from: Cato on April 30, 2017, 04:34:26 PM
Courtesy of Todd from "What Are You Listening?"

Funny, I've always found Nos. 1 & 9 the strong points in the Berlin cycle. And the Fourth, in its brash way, in the Chicago cycle and also the Fourth, in a more supple but less blazing way, in the new Staatskapelle-cycle. (Judging by the Accent DVD which I reckon is the same performance.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 03, 2017, 01:05:30 PM
Quote from: André on April 30, 2017, 11:46:51 AM
Symphonies 2, 3, 4 and 8 exist in "first versions" that are substantially different (generally longer, more diffuse, but no less interesting for that) than the later pruned, concentrated, reorchestrated, excised, butchered last versions (take your pick in terms of the appropriate description, but that is not my POV: while I wallow in the unalduterated brucknerian first thoughts,


I would agree with you in the case of 4 and 8, although 4 I don't think is longer, just more diffuse. However with 2 and 3 I think the earlier versions are better.

My 'rule' is, first version except 4 and 8; in those two cases Bruckner got uncharacteristically overconfident, and produced the first versions in a very short time (for him).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 03, 2017, 01:21:58 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 03, 2017, 01:05:30 PM
I would agree with you in the case of 4 and 8, although 4 I don't think is longer, just more diffuse. However with 2 and 3 I think the earlier versions are better.

My 'rule' is, first version except 4 and 8; in those two cases Bruckner got uncharacteristically overconfident, and produced the first versions in a very short time (for him).

The psychologists say that second-guessing is usually not a good idea, but there are times when it is correct! 0:)

I was biased for the longest time by the Nowak versions, since Saint  0:) Eugen Jochum used them for the DGG recordings, but I must admit that the Originalfassungen have a great deal in their favor!

e.g.

https://www.youtube.com/v/pH4xR2y3j3w
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on May 04, 2017, 06:46:45 PM
This is probably one for the Unpopular Opinions thread but I prefer the first version of No. 4 to the second. The new scherzo is undoubtedly much better, but everything else became more conventional, more formally unified, less bold and experimental, and often less interesting. The 1874 finale in particular is significantly better than either of the later versions (although much harder to play).
<_<

No. 8 I have to go with the revision. Of course this is the only case where Bruckner carried on revising straight after finishing the piece and thus was still writing within the same frame of mind. 1, 2, 3, and 4 he revised after he'd written a lot of other music in the interim and it shows.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mahlerian on May 05, 2017, 03:30:39 AM
Quote from: amw on May 04, 2017, 06:46:45 PM
This is probably one for the Unpopular Opinions thread but I prefer the first version of No. 4 to the second. The new scherzo is undoubtedly much better, but everything else became more conventional, more formally unified, less bold and experimental, and often less interesting. The 1874 finale in particular is significantly better than either of the later versions (although much harder to play).
<_<

Much as I love the revision and feel it is the more straightforward piece of the two, I agree with you as to your reasons for preferring the original (if not to the choice itself).  I wouldn't even say that the later scherzo is the better movement; the original movement is more closely connected to the motif that saturates all of the other movements.  It's also unlike any of Bruckner's other scherzos in temperament and style.  He even had to add in a reference to the revised scherzo in his later finale in order to make it fit.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on May 05, 2017, 03:38:14 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on May 05, 2017, 03:30:39 AM
Much as I love the revision and feel it is the more straightforward piece of the two, I agree with you as to your reasons for preferring the original (if not to the choice itself).  I wouldn't even say that the later scherzo is the better movement; the original movement is more closely connected to the motif that saturates all of the other movements.  It's also unlike any of Bruckner's other scherzos in temperament and style.  He even had to add in a reference to the revised scherzo in his later finale in order to make it fit.
You're probably right, but I mean I can see why he got rid of it; it's kind of epigrammatic, not really a successful large-scale structure. I do still like it a lot. The later scherzo is more successful as a coherent listening experience but, yeah, doesn't mesh well with the remaining movements, stylistically being more of a throw-forward to the 7th symphony or thereabouts. (begun the year after Bruckner finished revising the 4th)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on May 06, 2017, 12:12:54 PM
Quote from: André on April 29, 2017, 09:41:52 AM
Gielen is a master brucknerite in 5 and 7. From the timings you can tell these are swift performances. Few can touch him there. His 8th on the contrary is lumbering and bloated. It's hard to believe this 5th and this 8th are from the same conductor. His 6th is very good. I don't have the others. Maybe the disappointment with the 8th stopped me in my tracks.  ::)

Listened to Gielen's Fifth earlier today.  I agree with your assessment of the performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on May 11, 2017, 05:40:19 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 29, 2017, 09:32:44 AM
Crosspost from the main listening thread

Last night, I started this set with the First. Currently, I am listening to the Second.
[asin]B01ET5D54Y[/asin]
Heretofore, Karajan has been the only conductor who has produced performances in which I am interested out of B1-B3.  He now has a companion in Gielen, at least for the First and Second.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61qOPStAGSL.jpg)
Curiously, this studio recording from 1968 was never released before. Neither was the performance of the First, although a bit less curiously there (recorded in live performances in 2009).  That fact may make this set a must buy for Cato, Andre, and other Brucknerites.

Update, having finished this set earlier today

Strong points
1-3,5,6, final movement of 8

Weak points
third movement of 8

In between
4,7, the first two movements of 8 (and 8 overall), 9

Overall rating:good buy, perhaps essential.

The 8 may require a bit of explanation. The first two movements were good, but could have been produced by anyone.  The third was too mellow and a bit flaccid for my taste. The final movement more than made up for it, being essentially a long slow burn that lost no intensity along the way. As pointed out earlier in the thread, this was the first version of the symphony.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on May 11, 2017, 11:06:15 PM
I find is somewhat strange that they did not include the recording of the "standard" version of the 8th. Granted, it is probably not that special (it is maybe the weakest/least distinctive of the ones (3, 4-8) I have heard) but I had the impression that they went for completeness in these boxes.
I am surprised that you did not find the 7th more distinctive. I am not a huge Brucknerian and have not heard all that many (although around 10 of this piece) but for me this is the best "fleet/lean" reading of the piece I know. Even if one does not favor such an approach it seems to me more distinctive than his other Bruckner (except maybe the 5th).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 12, 2017, 03:51:12 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 11, 2017, 11:06:15 PM
I find is somewhat strange that they did not include the recording of the "standard" version of the 8th. Granted, it is probably not that special (it is maybe the weakest/least distinctive of the ones (3, 4-8) I have heard) but I had the impression that they went for completeness in these boxes.
I am surprised that you did not find the 7th more distinctive. I am not a huge Brucknerian and have not heard all that many (although around 10 of this piece) but for me this is the best "fleet/lean" reading of the piece I know. Even if one does not favor such an approach it seems to me more distinctive than his other Bruckner (except maybe the 5th).

+ 3 (re: the 7th, the final version of 8 and the 5th)  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 13, 2017, 02:47:08 PM
I apologize if already mentioned but I am bowed over by this video of Bruckner's 5th:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwj_57e8T2s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwj_57e8T2s)

What can you say about Asahina? This is Bruckner conducting at its epitomy: serious, ascetic, uncompromising, steely in execution, not unlike another great Bruckner conductor Gunter Wand.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 13, 2017, 03:31:39 PM
It is glorious indeed. And the comparison with Wand is not farfetched. Both conductors achieve a sense of mystical ceremony combined with a juggernaut orchestral display.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 13, 2017, 04:00:19 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 13, 2017, 02:47:08 PM
I apologize if already mentioned but I am bowed over by this video of Bruckner's 5th:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwj_57e8T2s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwj_57e8T2s)

What can you say about Asahina? This is Bruckner conducting at its epitomy: serious, ascetic, uncompromising, steely in execution, not unlike another great Bruckner conductor Gunter Wand.

Quote from: André on June 13, 2017, 03:31:39 PM
It is glorious indeed. And the comparison with Wand is not farfetched. Both conductors achieve a sense of mystical ceremony combined with a juggernaut orchestral display.

Many thanks for the link!  I will need to listen to it tomorrow: are Asahina and Bruckner parallel with Watanabe and Sibelius?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 13, 2017, 04:08:09 PM
Ooof ! You got me there... :o I've only heard of Watanabe'  Sibelius, but never actually expereienced it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 16, 2017, 11:59:23 AM
Quote from: Cato on June 13, 2017, 04:00:19 PM
Many thanks for the link!  I will need to listen to it tomorrow: are Asahina and Bruckner parallel with Watanabe and Sibelius?
Did you guys know that Asahina's father was Watanabe? Not Akeo the conductor but Kaichi the engineer !

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 19, 2017, 05:32:42 AM
Quote from: André on June 13, 2017, 04:08:09 PM
Ooof ! You got me there... :o I've only heard of Watanabe'  Sibelius, but never actually expereienced it.

I've tried to look for either of these guys' Sibelius or Bruckner and found no sets at the Shibuya Tower Records and only single discs of Asahina Sibelius. (No Watanabe Sibelius at all.) Rather disappointing, actually, and certainly surprising. Esp. since it's not like the store hasn't the most splendid selection in every other way.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 19, 2017, 06:46:48 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 19, 2017, 05:32:42 AM
I've tried to look for either of these guys' Sibelius or Bruckner and found no sets at the Shibuya Tower Records and only single discs of Asahina Sibelius. (No Watanabe Sibelius at all.) Rather disappointing, actually, and certainly surprising. Esp. since it's not like the store hasn't the most splendid selection in every other way.
I saw this on Amazon, price is a bit high but not outrageous:

[asin]B00000I75L[/asin]

Anyway watching the Asahina Bruckner 5th it is more astonishing for a man that was 88 yrs old conducting a work that is 80 minutes long. Goes right up there with Bernard Haitink conducting a Mahler 3rd or Mahler 7th nowadays.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Parsifal on June 20, 2017, 09:58:02 PM
After spending a little time with this cycle

[asin]B00076YOQ8[/asin]

I find myself generally put off, seems rushed, crescendos don't unfold organically, lacking in a gentle grandeur I want to hear in the music.

Anyway, I'm wondering if there is a Bruckner cycle in which the brass generally has a more dolce touch that is normally the case. The orchestration of this music is so brass heavy, maybe the laying into it with utmost power is over the top. I'm thinking maybe something along the lines of the Bohm recordings with the VPO on Decca. Or maybe something like Haitink's original RCO cycle in more modern sound. How would Barbirolli perform it?

Any comments on the Masur cycle, the Venzago cycle, van Zweden, Maazel?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on June 20, 2017, 11:07:04 PM
you probably know these already and "dolce" is not quite the proper word but they are not "hard" and "harsh" and very worthwhile: Giulini/VPO in 7-9.
And the ones I know of Celi/Munich (4,6,8 -he did 3-9) are not only slow but also generally tending lyrical and balanced without anything "blaring out"
While far from this kind of "luxurious" warm sound, I seem to recall that the Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken recordings are also not as "brassy" as some others. But I have not heard any of the ones you mention in the last line.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 20, 2017, 11:43:21 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 20, 2017, 09:58:02 PM
After spending a little time with BB's 2nd cycle.

I find myself generally put off, seems rushed, crescendos don't unfold organically, lacking in a gentle grandeur I want to hear in the music.

Anyway, I'm wondering if there is a Bruckner cycle in which the brass generally has a more dolce touch that is normally the case. The orchestration of this music is so brass heavy, maybe the laying into it with utmost power is over the top. I'm thinking maybe something along the lines of the Bohm recordings with the VPO on Decca. Or maybe something like Haitink's original RCO cycle in more modern sound. How would Barbirolli perform it?

Any comments on the Masur cycle, the Venzago cycle, van Zweden, Maazel?

Sarge, who also likes Bb's Berlin Cycle better than I do (I think the 9th and the 1st are fabulous, but the rest not so much), is also GMG's in-house apologist for Maazel's BRSO cycle.  ;D
It is best to hear what's good about that cycle from him. Certainly Maazel does make his personal choices and doesn't follow the crowd.

The Masur-cycle is one cycle I've always stayed far away from and never even had the tiniest urge to attain. That's obviously not saying anything about the cycle and only about my biases...
Venzago Cycle I'm still trying to acquire the whole thing but whatever I've heard so far was at the very least fascinating. I don't mind Bruckner being done differently to my expectations as long as it's done with convictions... and this is certainly the case w/Venzago. Same reason I can love Norrington and Celi and Haitink in the Sixth the best. Van Zweden is a marvelous cycle, I think... but, it might be said, also middle-of-the-road. Sheer quality, though, and a fine orchestral sound. But I haven't gotten to know it well enough to say as much about it as I might be about time-honored favorites (Skrowa, Wand, Celi) of mine, of course.
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Parsifal on June 21, 2017, 06:09:04 AM
Thanks to both of you for comments. I generally like Maazel, and when I read amateur reviewers on Amazon talk about how Bruckner is rolling in his grave, I think I have to hear this thing.

I also should find that Guilini. I'm sure I had the 8th when it first came out but probably foolishly culled it at some point.

Maybe I should just be satisfied with my existing favorites, Karajan, the cycle plus EMI and WPO one-offs, Haitink's old cycle, Chailly, and listen to those old Schuricht recordings I have never gotten around to.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on June 21, 2017, 06:37:39 AM
Another brass-lighter, wind-heavier set I've heard lately was Hun-Joung Lim's cycle with the Korean Symphony. I'd urge you to find a way to sample before buying it, but it's an option. (EDIT: Todd is reviewing it symphony by symphony; check his post history.)

Venzago is a loon. It's not that he de-emphasizes brass but that he uses chamber orchestras. But I would describe his interpretive style as sort of like Airplane!: let's try 100 crazy ideas and see if any of them work. For me, it's more of the blind squirrel finding a nut rule than genuine insight, which is a damn shame since Bruckner is in need of a serious, grownup re-interpretation.

EDIT: ClassicsToday was good enough to attach some Venzago sound samples to its scathing reviews. example (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/venzago-vs-bruckner-venzago-wins/?search=1) (7 - Victor Carr), example (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/alvin-chipmunks-play-bruckner/?search=1) (5 - Hurwitz)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on June 21, 2017, 06:57:25 AM
If you generally like Giulini there is a "Giulini in Vienna" box that contains Bruckner's 7-9 (+ Beethoven concerti with ABM, Brahms symphonies, Rigoletto etc.). Otherwise the 8th is probably easiest to find because this one (and the 7th, too) appeared also in the gold colored "Masters" series.
As most late Giulini they are all slow (if not quite Celi-slow) but for Bruckner this approach works better than for Brahms, IMO.

Admittedly, I am somewhat biased because this 7th and 8th were my first recordings of these pieces (and probably among my first 30 CDs or so). The brass is not damped down but it sounds warm and full and does not stick out glaringly.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 21, 2017, 07:23:33 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 20, 2017, 09:58:02 PM
Any comments on the Masur cycle, the Venzago cycle, van Zweden, Maazel?

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 20, 2017, 11:43:21 PM
Sarge[...]is also GMG's in-house apologist for Maazel's BRSO cycle.  ;D

I do like Maazel's cycle. It would probably be my desert island choice. He is, in general, slower than average in the first and last movements, faster than average in the slow movements, with unremarkable (tempo-wise) Scherzos. Hard to generalize about the brass sound but I think it rather mellow, at least the trumpets and trombones aren't overbearing in the, for example, coda of the 8th. You can clearly hear the horns (which disappear in too many recordings). Is this a recommendation? No. I never assume anyone will agree with me  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Parsifal on June 21, 2017, 07:59:17 AM
Again, thanks for all of the comments. Sounds like I need Maazel and Venzago.  A blind squirrel may be just what is needed!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 21, 2017, 07:25:08 PM
I've always enjoyed going back and revisiting Venzago's discs, even if for just pure amusement. I'm still amazed at the 5th's timings, look at his take on the Adagio compared to the third movement...

II - 12:13
III - 13:11

And Celibdaches Adagio is close to 24 minutes if I remember correctly.  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 21, 2017, 10:17:32 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 21, 2017, 07:25:08 PM
I've always enjoyed going back and revisiting Venzago's discs, even if for just pure amusement. I'm still amazed at the 5th's timings, look at his take on the Adagio compared to the third movement...

II - 12:13
III - 13:11

And Celibdaches Adagio is close to 24 minutes if I remember correctly.  ;D

Something tells me that Celi isn't the standard, either. Though in Bruckner, subjective and objective time can be particularly far apart, I find. Hearing Bruckner in St. Florian (where the symphonies don't really belong, but that's a different matter), I might find a 20-minute Adagio sounding swift and 12 minutes an utter, incomprehensible mess. In a dryish modern concert hall, however, the very same former performance would probably sound like old chewing gum and the latter might work.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on June 21, 2017, 11:32:12 PM
16-18 min is probably the "normal" tempo for the adagio of the 5th (my fastest is Harnoncourt with a few seconds under 15). So unsurprisingly 12 min is very fast but 24 is very slow ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 22, 2017, 01:35:29 PM
apropos:


Classical CD Of The Week: Bruckner from Deutsche Grammophon
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/06/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_BRUCKNER-7-Barenboim_DG_Staatskapelle_Laurson_2400-1200x469.jpg?width=960)

(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/06/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_BRUCKNER-9-Abbado_DG_Lucerne_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg?width=960)
Exploring, discovering and rediscovering great music in new recordings and old music in great recordings.
Bruckner from Barenboim and Abbado.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/06/22/classical-cd-of-the-week-bruckner-from-deutsche-grammophon/
(https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/06/22/classical-cd-of-the-week-bruckner-from-deutsche-grammophon/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 24, 2017, 03:55:39 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 21, 2017, 06:37:39 AM


Venzago is a loon. It's not that he de-emphasizes brass but that he uses chamber orchestras. But I would describe his interpretive style as sort of like Airplane!: let's try 100 crazy ideas and see if any of them work. For me, it's more of the blind squirrel finding a nut rule than genuine insight, which is a damn shame since Bruckner is in need of a serious, grownup re-interpretation.

EDIT: ClassicsToday was good enough to attach some Venzago sound samples to its scathing reviews. example (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/venzago-vs-bruckner-venzago-wins/?search=1) (7 - Victor Carr), example (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/alvin-chipmunks-play-bruckner/?search=1) (5 - Hurwitz)

Absolutely bizarre!  The strings are nearly non-existent in the Seventh Symphony excerpt: one can easily assume that Bruckner intended them to be heard, even when the brass played forte! And in the excerpt from the Fifth Symphony, the brass are not accenting the notes correctly!  One must assume that is a command from the conductor to ignore the score! ???

Why would a recording company invest in such performances?  A few years ago, the Toledo Symphony played (a nearly complete) Bruckner cycle in a cathedral, a cycle which should have been recorded because it was very well played and because of the acoustics in the cathedral. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Parsifal on June 26, 2017, 04:47:26 AM
After listening to a few samples, I can see where the Venzago loon comment is coming from. I don't think I meet a cycle of that. I will probably pick up a single disc to satisfy my curiosity, probably the 8th. But the Maazel lset is the thing I must have.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on June 28, 2017, 06:41:54 AM
Well Venzago's recordings may not satisfy Brucknerians, but perhaps that is why I like them so much.  There is much about Bruckner's symphonies that I find quite hard to take (brassiness, repitition) and Venzago's 7th in particular minimises all that.  It's the only recording of this work I turn to.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81xl70aCIYL._SY355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 29, 2017, 04:30:57 AM
With a bit of luck I'll get to participate in a real feast: Bamberg SO under Blomstedt in four cathedrals in four days in Bruckner's Fifth this summer: https://www.bamberger-symphoniker.de/en/programme-tickets/concert-overview/herbert-blomstedt-conducts-bruckner-19-07-2017.html
(https://www.bamberger-symphoniker.de/en/programme-tickets/concert-overview/herbert-blomstedt-conducts-bruckner-19-07-2017.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 29, 2017, 05:14:53 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 29, 2017, 04:30:57 AM
With a bit of luck I'll get to participate in a real feast: Bamberg SO under Blomstedt in four cathedrals in four days in Bruckner's Fifth this summer: https://www.bamberger-symphoniker.de/en/programme-tickets/concert-overview/herbert-blomstedt-conducts-bruckner-19-07-2017.html
(https://www.bamberger-symphoniker.de/en/programme-tickets/concert-overview/herbert-blomstedt-conducts-bruckner-19-07-2017.html)

That is a real feast!  Bruckner played in a cathedral is more than appropriate!

I once heard the following story about Toscanini from someone who knew a musician who had played in the NBC Orchestra:

While rehearsing the orchestra, the conductor sees a worker of some sort passing by the podium, and Toscanini takes his baton and knocks the man's hat off.  The worker, not immune to the maestro's reputation, says nothing, picks up his hat, and goes off.  Later, he again passes by the podium, and again Toscanini knocks off his hat.  The man says:

"Hey, Maestro, what's the big idea knocking off my hat?  This ain't a church, y' know!"

Toscanini: "When we play music, is like a church!"  0:)



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 29, 2017, 05:50:03 AM
Quote from: Cato on June 29, 2017, 05:14:53 AM
That is a real feast!  Bruckner played in a cathedral is more than appropriate!

I once heard the following story about Toscanini from someone who knew a musician who had played in the NBC Orchestra:

While rehearsing the orchestra, the conductor sees a worker of some sort passing by the podium, and Toscanini takes his baton and knocks the man's hat off.  The worker, not immune to the maestro's reputation, says nothing, picks up his hat, and goes off.  Later, he again passes by the podium, and again Toscanini knocks off his hat.  The man says:

"Hey, Maestro, what's the big idea knocking off my hat?  This ain't a church, y' know!"

Toscanini: "When we play music, is like a church!"  0:)

I have the feeling it will be wonderful, yes, but then I also think that Bruckner and churches are perhaps too easily associated. None of the symphonies were actually composed for that sort of a space... but in fact very much for the Musikverein (later, at least; not sure what he logically had in mind for the earliest symphonies). It tends to push the notion of Bruckner the sacred symphonist a little too hard; the incense-wafting a la Celibidache. Don't get me wrong: Love Celi and that's how I found into Bruckner. But I'm not sure if it is 100% Bruckner or doing his music a great service. Fortunately we have this trend and any imaginable counter-trend, too... see the Vinzago discussion. (One reason why I'm not jumping on the Vinzago-rubbishing train. I find them refreshing antidotes.)

Love the Toscanini quote. Se non è vero, è ben trovato.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 29, 2017, 09:27:47 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 29, 2017, 05:50:03 AM
I have the feeling it will be wonderful, yes, but then I also think that Bruckner and churches are perhaps too easily associated. None of the symphonies were actually composed for that sort of a space...

True, but having heard several of the symphonies (0, 4, 8  ) in the cathedral of the Toledo diocese, it is a great experience!  Let us know what you think!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 29, 2017, 12:19:13 PM
Quote from: Cato on June 29, 2017, 09:27:47 AM
True, but having heard several of the symphonies (0, 4, 8) in the cathedral of the Toledo diocese, it is a great experience!  Let us know what you think!

Will do! So far, my experiences have been: Bloomstedt, Ottobeuren, 8th, BRSO and 9th and 6th with Remy Ballot at St. Florian. I think that's been it, though. Very fine experiences, each time, indeed.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on June 29, 2017, 08:20:46 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 29, 2017, 04:30:57 AM
With a bit of luck I'll get to participate in a real feast: Bamberg SO under Blomstedt in four cathedrals in four days in Bruckner's Fifth this summer: https://www.bamberger-symphoniker.de/en/programme-tickets/concert-overview/herbert-blomstedt-conducts-bruckner-19-07-2017.html
(https://www.bamberger-symphoniker.de/en/programme-tickets/concert-overview/herbert-blomstedt-conducts-bruckner-19-07-2017.html)

Sounds splendid!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 30, 2017, 06:27:36 AM
(https://www.abruckner.com/getimage.asp?id=/store/abrucknercomexclus/abrucknercomcds/bruckenrsymphonyno/&filename=cover_bsvd-0103.jpg&mode=5)

The unpublished 1876 version of symphony no 2. Eichhorn recorded the original 1872 version, as well as the slightly pruned 1873. Carragan and Berky concocted this assemblage, in which the text is tightened here and there (small cuts).  Movement order is andante-scherzo (it originated the other way around), and the adagio coda is allotted to the clarinet.

It's all very fine - and a very good interpretation. Except that the orchestra, fine as it is, is not the most alert and tranchent outfit and it is put at a further disadvantage by the homogeneous and slightly recessed sound picture. IOW it does not sound bold and youthful enough. This is early Bruckner, after all !

I retain a preference for Stein, Giulini, Karajan, Jochum (DGG), Zender, Haitink, Blomstedt (1872 original). Even Konwitschny's deliberate performance has more character.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 21, 2017, 01:17:05 PM
Stalking Blomstedt and Bamberg Symphony in their Bruckner-5-in-4-Cathedrals-Tour.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFRfem2XgAEqUtp.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFRgopoWAAAa5WX.jpg)

Pix Wuerzburg & Passau, respectively.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 21, 2017, 01:33:41 PM
Quote from: André on June 30, 2017, 06:27:36 AM
(https://www.abruckner.com/getimage.asp?id=/store/abrucknercomexclus/abrucknercomcds/bruckenrsymphonyno/&filename=cover_bsvd-0103.jpg&mode=5)

The unpublished 1876 version of symphony no 2. Eichhorn recorded the original 1872 version, as well as the slightly pruned 1873. Carragan and Berky concocted this assemblage, in which the text is tightened here and there (small cuts).  Movement order is andante-scherzo (it originated the other way around), and the adagio coda is allotted to the clarinet.

It's all very fine - and a very good interpretation. Except that the orchestra, fine as it is, is not the most alert and tranchent outfit and it is put at a further disadvantage by the homogeneous and slightly recessed sound picture. IOW it does not sound bold and youthful enough. This is early Bruckner, after all !

I retain a preference for Stein, Giulini, Karajan, Jochum (DGG), Zender, Haitink, Blomstedt (1872 original). Even Konwitschny's deliberate performance has more character.

Many thanks for the information!

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 21, 2017, 01:17:05 PM
Stalking Blomstedt and Bamberg Symphony in their Bruckner-5-in-4-Cathedrals-Tour.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFRfem2XgAEqUtp.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFRgopoWAAAa5WX.jpg)

Pix Wuerzburg & Passau, respectively.

Great pictures!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on July 21, 2017, 03:23:55 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 21, 2017, 01:17:05 PM
Stalking Blomstedt and Bamberg Symphony in their Bruckner-5-in-4-Cathedrals-Tour.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFRfem2XgAEqUtp.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFRgopoWAAAa5WX.jpg)

Pix Wuerzburg & Passau, respectively.

There's at least one violinist who seems to have packed but one outfit for the trip...

Re:Passau
That high altar seems to enshrine three Greek deities and Gandalf the Grey. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on July 22, 2017, 08:28:01 AM
Thanks for the reportage, Jens!  8)

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 21, 2017, 03:23:55 PM
Re:Passau
That high altar seems to enshrine three Greek deities and Gandalf the Grey.

;D

Passau is definitely on my radar now.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 23, 2017, 01:29:09 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on July 22, 2017, 08:28:01 AM
Thanks for the reportage, Jens!  8)

;D

Passau is definitely on my radar now.

More coming in an upcoming actual report of the trip which ended last night in St. Florian!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFRfcYfXkAA-cfM.jpg)
(Passau organ)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 28, 2017, 06:02:10 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 23, 2017, 01:29:09 AM
More coming in an upcoming actual report of the trip which ended last night in St. Florian!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFRfcYfXkAA-cfM.jpg)
(Passau organ)

The Baroque, where more is always MORE!!! 0:)

Many thanks, and let us know your reviews!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: HIPster on July 29, 2017, 04:56:13 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 23, 2017, 01:29:09 AM
More coming in an upcoming actual report of the trip which ended last night in St. Florian!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFRfcYfXkAA-cfM.jpg)
(Passau organ)

Excellent.  :)

Really looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Your Earliest Experiences
Post by: Cato on August 04, 2017, 09:43:48 AM
I used to have all 9 on LP !

(https://img.discogs.com/dx6B-DdIr_m6sMrcWAGsmJez9l8=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-5526639-1395662788-1309.jpeg.jpg)

I have told the story before, but for any newcomers...

I had already discovered intuitively (age 5 or before perhaps)  the differences between the 3-minute radio ditties my mother occasionally listened to (my father was basically unmusical, except when it came to a Big-Band singer named Teresa Brewer) and classical music, the latter supplied by Carl Stalling's pastiche scores for cartoons, a show on Sunday with Alistair Cooke called Omnibus , the organist at my Catholic parish, and Leonard Bernstein's Young People's Concerts (1958).  The latter two shows had to be viewed at my grandparents' house next door, since they did not fit my parents' taste. 0:)

One day, around age 11, I was visiting the Dayton downtown Main Library and browsing through the study scores,when I came across a nice new blue score (Editor Leopold Nowak) of a composer named Anton Bruckner.  Following the score, I reached the first climax of the opening movement of the Seventh Symphony, and thought: "I have GOT to find a record of THIS!!!"

And whoever the Music Librarian was at the time, s/he was wonderful, because a new DGG 2-record set of the symphony - conducted by Eugen Jochum - was waiting for me!  So I took it home, and even though my 1950's record player had only one speaker, I was more than enthralled!

When I have more time, I will be writing about my early experiences as a (perhaps only somewhat precocious   ;)   )  11-year old and Bruckner as conducted by Eugen Jochum!   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Your Earliest Experiences
Post by: aukhawk on August 05, 2017, 07:18:30 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 04, 2017, 09:43:48 AM
I used to have all 9 on LP !

I misread that - as "I used to have all 9 on 1 LP"  ;D

(That character on the cover picture looks as though he'd fit right in, at Passau)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Your Earliest Experiences
Post by: Cato on August 06, 2017, 03:27:24 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on August 05, 2017, 07:18:30 AM
I misread that - as "I used to have all 9 on 1 LP"  ;D

(That character on the cover picture looks as though he'd fit right in, at Passau)

Yes!  The DGG/Jochum series had album covers with similar sketches of churches to symbolize the symphonies and Bruckner's own piety.

My earliest memories of the First Symphony:

It was not the first Bruckner work to hit my ears: as I mentioned earlier, that "honor" went to the Seventh Symphony!  ;)

However, the First Symphony impressed me with its energy, its drive, its fury in the first movement, and then came the slow movement with its arching themes, both melancholy and hopeful, and I realized that it was not for nothing that ecclesiastical architecture was used on those album covers!  The Scherzo brought back the furious nature of the first movement's conclusion, a fury tempered somewhat, however, by the contrasting theme and the Trio.  And then the Finale summed up all that driving energy, concentrated it, yet at the same time expanded its scope.

I was a teenager at the time of Jochum's  recording, and had already started my composing "career" as an autodidact, so every Nowak score of the symphonies and every recording (especially Jochum's) of a Bruckner work was important for my musical education.

Quote from: Cato on August 04, 2017, 09:43:48 AM

And whoever the Music Librarian was at the time, s/he was wonderful, because a new* DGG 2-record set of the symphony - conducted by Eugen Jochum - was waiting for me!  So I took it home, and even though my 1950's record player had only one speaker, I was more than enthralled!


It strikes me that my memory is off, for it could not have been the stereo recording, but one from the early 1950's: the stereo recording became available when I was a teenager.  Perhaps it was "new" in that they had bought the older monaural recording: I am positive that it was in the bin labeled NEW ACQUISITIONS.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Your Earliest Experiences
Post by: Cato on August 14, 2017, 08:25:17 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 06, 2017, 03:27:24 AM
Yes!  The DGG/Jochum series had album covers with similar sketches of churches to symbolize the symphonies and Bruckner's own piety.

My earliest memories of the First Symphony:

It was not the first Bruckner work to hit my ears: as I mentioned earlier, that "honor" went to the Seventh Symphony!  ;)

However, the First Symphony impressed me with its energy, its drive, its fury in the first movement, and then came the slow movement with its arching themes, both melancholy and hopeful, and I realized that it was not for nothing that ecclesiastical architecture was used on those album covers!  The Scherzo brought back the furious nature of the first movement's conclusion, a fury tempered somewhat, however, by the contrasting theme and the Trio.  And then the Finale summed up all that driving energy, concentrated it, yet at the same time expanded its scope.

I was a teenager at the time of Jochum's  recording, and had already started my composing "career" as an autodidact, so every Nowak score of the symphonies and every recording (especially Jochum's) of a Bruckner work was important for my musical education.

It strikes me that my memory is off, for it could not have been the stereo recording, but one from the early 1950's: the stereo recording became available when I was a teenager.  Perhaps it was "new" in that they had bought the older monaural recording: I am positive that it was in the bin labeled NEW ACQUISITIONS.

Today, the Second Symphony is my topic: my Nowak score dates from 1965, so that must be the first time I had heard the Second Symphony, when I was in high school.

If the First Symphony impressed me with its drive and energy, the Second Symphony left a mark with its wealth of fascinating material, which often provided an air of mystery as well as drama: the opening theme in the high register of the cellos, the theme in the woodwinds at C, bar 100, for example, with the marvelous theme in the woodwinds accompanied by a repeated motif of  two 8th notes and a quarter note on massed strings, the insistent trumpet call bursting in at times, and of course the pauses, which "riddle" the movement in more ways than one.    ;)   The Andante begins full or portent, and has an opening climax full of drama, portending the greater outburst at K, bar 149.  This slow movement is more restrained emotionally than the ones to come, more mysterious, meditative, enigmatic perhaps.  The Scherzo was just fun: lots of fast fiddling, but that trumpet motif from the first movement was not to be forgotten!  The Coda, I recall, struck me as remarkable.  The opening of the Finale seemed an expression of frustration, scrambling up a mountain, but not quite reaching the top. By the time sections E and F are reached, however, the top seems to have yielded to serenity and then at the end is trampled by the trumpet motif!

I dread to mention that my 52 year-old score is yellowing!  But I will not be bothering with a replacement!  8)

I do not dread to mention that I also obtained the CD with the Originalfassung of the Second Symphony,  on NAXOS with Georg Tintner conducting.  Again, there is a case to be made that Bruckner tinkered with something that did not need tinkering.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on August 14, 2017, 08:33:52 AM
Something of a poster boy for composerly diffidence!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 14, 2017, 05:04:13 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 14, 2017, 08:33:52 AM
Something of a poster boy for composerly diffidence!

Oh yes!  The poor man often sought e.g. certificates from professors to prove himself.

Quote from: Cato on August 14, 2017, 08:25:17 AM

I do not dread to mention that I also obtained the CD with the Originalfassung of the Second Symphony,  on NAXOS with Georg Tintner conducting.  Again, there is a case to be made that Bruckner tinkered with something that did not need tinkering.

I revisited the Tintner/ National Symphony Orchestra of Ireland performance of the original version of the Second Symphony and must say that it is preferable to the Nowak edition of the revised work!  There is simply much more drama in the Andante and the Finale, especially the latter.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Hindemith Conducting the Seventh Symphony
Post by: Cato on August 19, 2017, 10:18:05 AM
Courtesy of a fellow Brucknerian:

Paul Hindemith conducts the New York Philharmonic (February 1960 according to a note) in the Seventh Symphony:

https://www.youtube.com/v/i6Q2qiSdu44&feature=share
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on August 19, 2017, 10:19:04 AM
Wow, definitely on the To Watch list.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 22, 2017, 02:28:16 PM
Again, thanks to a fellow Brucknerian:

https://www.youtube.com/v/L1PreUSNb9c
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on August 22, 2017, 10:50:36 PM
I wonder why they interviewed only brass players... I know of at least one string player who strongly dislikes playing Bruckner...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 23, 2017, 01:25:49 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 22, 2017, 10:50:36 PM
I wonder why they interviewed only brass players... I know of at least one string player who strongly dislikes playing Bruckner...

The music is for the pleasure of the audience, not the pleasure of the players.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on August 23, 2017, 02:49:03 AM
Sure. (And if I remember correctly that person did not dislike Bruckner's music per se but the frequent tremolo apparently hurts/exhausts some string players.)
But it is somewhat strange to interview only brass players; there are woodwinds as well, if one expects the string players do be less fond.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on August 23, 2017, 05:05:00 AM
I've heard that Schubert's 9th symphony (the last movement) is a nightmare for the string players. It physically hurts them to play these passages of repeated fast notes. I never heard that about Bruckner, though the 7th symphony does have lots of tremolos, and the last movement has them fighting hard to be heard above the brass.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 23, 2017, 09:16:06 AM
Quote from: André on August 23, 2017, 05:05:00 AM
I've heard that Schubert's 9th symphony (the last movement) is a nightmare for the string players. It physically hurts them to play these passages of repeated fast notes. I never heard that about Bruckner, though the 7th symphony does have lots of tremolos, and the last movement has them fighting hard to be heard above the brass.

I have heard the same about the more experimental composers of yesteryear, e.g. Penderecki's  earlier works were considered by some both painful to play and to hear.  I wonder if the players today would have the same opinion!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on August 24, 2017, 01:42:05 AM
I am not really a Brucknerian but I might get this at some stage. The Southwest German Radio finally publishes Rosbaud's Brucker recordings, some of which have been around for decades on some labels, but not all of them. Symphonies 2-9.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/anton-bruckner-hans-rosbaud-dirigiert-bruckner/hnum/7731324
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 24, 2017, 03:45:48 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 24, 2017, 01:42:05 AM
I am not really a Brucknerian but I might get this at some stage. The Southwest German Radio finally publishes Rosbaud's Brucker recordings, some of which have been around for decades on some labels, but not all of them. Symphonies 2-9.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/anton-bruckner-hans-rosbaud-dirigiert-bruckner/hnum/7731324

I am not acquainted with these at all: Hans Rosbaud of course was one of the great conductors of the 20th Century, especially with contemporary composers (e.g. Schoenberg and Hartmann), so you will undoubtedly be in good hands!

Let us know what you think!

Here is a taste on You Tube:

https://www.youtube.com/v/r-rmYPtS5pc
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 24, 2017, 01:59:48 PM
Rough visualization of why I like B9 with the 4th movement. Not for that movement itself but for what it does to the 3rd.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DH5g6L4WsAA1cSE.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on August 24, 2017, 02:21:29 PM
It's all downhill, so the slow movement seems so much better in comparison? 0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Your Earliest Experiences
Post by: Cato on August 24, 2017, 02:33:25 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 24, 2017, 01:59:48 PM
Rough visualization of why I like B9 with the 4th movement. Not for that movement itself but for what it does to the 3rd.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DH5g6L4WsAA1cSE.jpg)

Quote from: North Star on August 24, 2017, 02:21:29 PM
It's all downhill, so the slow movement seems so much better in comparison? 0:)

I find nothing downhill about the last movement: it is a tortured yet successful ascent from the acquiescence in the earlier abyss.

From Bruno Walter in the quote below:

QuoteTheir symphonies resemble each other also in the special significance of the finale in the total-architecture.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Your Earliest Experiences
Post by: Cato on August 24, 2017, 02:35:37 PM
The Symphony #3 pleased me right from the start (which goes without saying  8)  ).  I recall being intrigued by the mysterious opening with the strange figures in the strings and that seemingly faraway trumpet.  The first movement's drama told some sort of story, a story somehow more specific - yet still ineffable - than the impressions from the earlier symphonies.

This was the revised Nowak edition without the Wagner homage, and that was fine with me: for some reason I was much against using quotations from other composers, and felt that Bruckner was right to second-guess himself.  These days I am more open to the idea having validity in a work, but back then it seemed too overt: if the composer was telling me too clearly what the music should guide me toward (Wagner), then that interfered with my own ideas and enjoyment.   Now, I have heard the original, Wagner-referring version thanks to Kent Nagano, and oddly, I did not find it very jarring at all!  My fears were somewhat unwarranted: still, I prefer the un-Wagnered revised edition!  Perhaps the preference comes from liking the unknowable, and the reference to Wagner gives me too much of a clue.

I also recall being impressed by the famous part of the last movement, where a rather jolly dance is played above a somber chorale: one critic called the chorale in the brass and woodwinds a funeral march, and I recall thinking that was overstating the case.  Mahler, of course, was influenced (greatly?) by the work, and this kind of juxtaposition appealed to him.  The "Brother John" funeral march in his First Symphony is seen as a direct descendant of Bruckner's Third.

And on that point, allow me to present a link to something else of importance from my youth: I joined the Bruckner Society of America (for $5.00, I think!) when I was a teenager in the 1960's and received several copies of Chord and Discord for my membership, one of which was from the 1940's and contained a marvelous essay by Bruno Walter on the two composers.

This essay is now available here:

http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/articles/bruckner/brucknerandmahler.php (http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/articles/bruckner/brucknerandmahler.php)

An excerpt:

QuoteNine symphonies composed by Bruckner, as well as Mahler, in the course of about thirty years, constitute the chief product of their creative power. The nature of the themes, developments, combinations, is (in keeping with their creator's nature) truly symphonic. Remarkable coincidences in the periodic progress of their work are the decisive step from the Third to the Fourth and the change of style between the Fourth and Fifth symphonies. The Fourth of each opens a new field of expression scarcely glimpsed in his previous works. A warm, romantic light rises over Bruckner's hitherto heroic tone-world; a tender fairy-tale-like idyll soothes Mahler's tempestuous heart. For both the Fifth, with its intensification of the polyphonic style, inaugurates the period of mature mastery. The laconic idiom of restraint, the art of mere suggestion, involving economy of means and form, is not theirs. Only in a number of his songs do we find Mahler's contradictory nature master of this style too. Otherwise both share in common the urge to yield their entire beings symphonically through unrestrained expression in huge dimensions. Their symphonies resemble each other also in the special significance of the finale in the total-architecture. Broadly spun, essentially diatonic themes and a counterpoint directly joined to the classical tradition characterize both. To be sure, Mahler's later polyphony trod more complex, daring, and highly individual paths. To both (and to them alone) the church chorale comes as naturally as the Austrian Ländler. The utmost solemnity and folk-like joviality constitute the opposite poles in both their natures. They are linked with the classicists, the way leads through Schubert. Their association is strengthened, among other things, by the fundamentals of their harmony, their style of cadence and (all their deviations notwithstanding) their fondness for symmetry and regular periodic structure. Even the later Mahler, no matter to what regions his formal and harmonic boldness led him, maintained clear periodic structure and a firm tonal foundation. Both revel in broadly built climaxes, in long sustained tensions, whose release requires overwhelming sonorous dynamics.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on August 24, 2017, 02:52:21 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 24, 2017, 01:59:48 PM
Rough visualization of why I like B9 with the 4th movement. Not for that movement itself but for what it does to the 3rd.

The 4th movement (any 4th movement) can't do anything to the 3rd (any 3rd) because time only goes one way, however you choose to visualize it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on August 24, 2017, 02:57:18 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 23, 2017, 01:25:49 AM
The music is for the pleasure of the audience, not the pleasure of the players.  :)

You remind me of my local supermarket, which seems to be entirely for the benefit of the shelf-stackers, and not for the shoppers. (Which of course is, actually, true.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: relm1 on August 24, 2017, 04:43:20 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 24, 2017, 01:59:48 PM
Rough visualization of why I like B9 with the 4th movement. Not for that movement itself but for what it does to the 3rd.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DH5g6L4WsAA1cSE.jpg)

I don't get your post at all.  Explain further. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mahlerian on August 24, 2017, 06:06:51 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on August 24, 2017, 02:52:21 PM
The 4th movement (any 4th movement) can't do anything to the 3rd (any 3rd) because time only goes one way, however you choose to visualize it.

Our perception of events is surely shaped by what follows them, though.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Hindemith Conducting the Seventh Symphony
Post by: Cato on August 25, 2017, 07:59:23 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 19, 2017, 10:18:05 AM
Courtesy of a fellow Brucknerian:

Paul Hindemith conducts the New York Philharmonic (February 1960 according to a note) in the Seventh Symphony:

https://www.youtube.com/v/i6Q2qiSdu44&feature=share

A live performance, so there is some audience noise at times.  Hindemith does not use the timpani or a cymbal clash at the climax of big crescendo in the Adagio.  The performance is a crisp one: no lollygagging around, yet it is never rushed!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 25, 2017, 10:22:37 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on August 24, 2017, 06:06:51 PM
Our perception of events is surely shaped by what follows them, though.

Thanks. I should think so. I didn't mean to suggest anything absurd or even particularly controversial, actually.

It's just that if we think of the slow movement of the 9th -- Bruckner's last (!) symphony, to boot -- as the final movement of the symphony, the whole work attains a character commensurate with that focal point of a sad (minor) leave-taking... slow-movements having a certain connotation in our culture. In fact, with the fourth movement added, the slow movement isn't the final focal point, it becomes an interlude. And we aim our view somewhere else. And in that change of perspective, our perception of the movement changes, too. And that of the performers', presumably, as well.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on August 25, 2017, 12:37:36 PM
It is fairly absurd that both Bruckner's 9th and Schubert's b minor symphony have been canonized in their fragmentary forms and people made up justifications why they are "perfect in 2 or 3 movements", respectively. We know that Bruckner found the 3 movement fragment of his 9th so impossible, that he suggested to play his Te Deum as a "choral finale". And when Schubert's b minor was first performed in the 1860s they played the finale of his 3rd (which does not really fit the mood but it is D major, so a possible closure for a b minor symphony) after the two movements.
Of course I also grew up with the fragmentary version and dubious backcover justifications. Of course, the completions are not without problems either. But at the very least one can be clear about the fact that neither work would have been performable in the form that is commonly performed today for the composers.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Parsifal on August 25, 2017, 01:53:01 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 25, 2017, 12:37:36 PM
It is fairly absurd that both Bruckner's 9th and Schubert's b minor symphony have been canonized in their fragmentary forms and people made up justifications why they are "perfect in 2 or 3 movements", respectively. We know that Bruckner found the 3 movement fragment of his 9th so impossible, that he suggested to play his Te Deum as a "choral finale". And when Schubert's b minor was first performed in the 1860s they played the finale of his 3rd (which does not really fit the mood but it is D major, so a possible closure for a b minor symphony) after the two movements.
Of course I also grew up with the fragmentary version and dubious backcover justifications. Of course, the completions are not without problems either. But at the very least one can be clear about the fact that neither work would have been performable in the form that is commonly performed today for the composers.

I consider the first movement of Schubert's b minor to be convincing on its own, as a free standing overture, of sorts. The second movement is nice also, but I don't consider that the two movement form produces a sense of "completion."

The tragedy of Bruckner's 9th is that, as I recall reading, the finale was more or less complete in some sort of short score that Bruckner wasn't happy with. The pages of the draft were given out a souvenirs when Bruckner died and many pages have subsequently been lost. If it weren't for that stupidity there would be a complete draft of the finale for people to work from.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on August 26, 2017, 06:55:55 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 25, 2017, 12:37:36 PM
It is fairly absurd that both Bruckner's 9th and Schubert's b minor symphony have been canonized in their fragmentary forms and people made up justifications why they are "perfect in 2 or 3 movements", respectively.

[snip]

... But at the very least one can be clear about the fact that neither work would have been performable in the form that is commonly performed today for the composers.

The music of all five movements referred to is each composer at the top of his game, so it is not absurd to canonize them, not absurd at all.

Considering those two symphony-trunks any kind of 'complete,' is absurd, yes.

Tacking on the finale from the Schubert Third to the Unfinished, well, that is damned absurd, too.

I have no real opinion about performing the Bruckner Ninth with the Te Deum as a kind of finale.  But I've never heard it that way, and have no plans to in future  0:)


And . . . I thought we were clear about the fact that neither work would have been performable in the form that is commonly performed today for the composers . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on August 26, 2017, 08:02:25 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 26, 2017, 06:55:55 AM
Considering those two symphony-trunks any kind of 'complete,' is absurd, yes.

This is what I meant.
Of course tacking on the finale of the 3rd is bizarre. I only mentioned this that at the time of Brahms, Hanslick and Joachim that was what people would rather do than perform the fragment in two movements only because the second option would have been even more bizarre for them.

There is no ideal solution. But performing versions/completions at least give one a piece in a form that would have been recognized by Bruckner or Schubert as a symphony. And I find it puzzling that in these two cases the fragments have been canonized as fragments and most conductors and listeners do not even bother with the completion attempts. (That's why Rattle/Berlin taking on the completed Bruckner 9th was an important step, I believe.) Whereas in opera (Turandot, Lulu, maybe another one I forgot) or in Mozart's Requiem completions or performance versions have been taken for granted for many decades.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mahlerian on August 26, 2017, 08:04:38 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 26, 2017, 08:02:25 AM
This is what I meant.
Of course tacking on the finale of the 3rd is bizarre. I only mentioned this that at the time of Brahms, Hanslick and Joachim that was what people would rather do than perform the fragment in two movements only because the second option would have been even more bizarre for them.

There is no ideal solution. But performing versions/completions at least give one a piece in a form that would have been recognized by Bruckner or Schubert as a symphony. And I find it puzzling that in these two cases the fragments have been canonized as fragments and most conductors and listeners do not even bother with the completion attempts. (That's why Rattle/Berlin taking on the completed Bruckner 9th was an important step, I believe.) Whereas in opera (Turandot, Lulu, maybe another one I forgot) or in Mozart's Requiem completions or performance versions have been taken for granted for many decades.

Bartok's Piano Concerto No. 3 and Viola Concerto are also regularly performed in completions by another's hand.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on August 26, 2017, 08:48:37 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 26, 2017, 08:02:25 AM
This is what I meant.
Of course tacking on the finale of the 3rd is bizarre. I only mentioned this that at the time of Brahms, Hanslick and Joachim that was what people would rather do than perform the fragment in two movements only because the second option would have been even more bizarre for them.

Oh, indeed!  Tempora mutantur . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on August 26, 2017, 08:54:31 AM
Quote from: Guy RickardsPupil [Hartmann] and teacher [Webern] did not always concur in their opinions of other composers' stature. 'Even as I heartily rejoice at his opinion of Reger I cannot agree with his appraisal of Bruckner. He does not believe that Bruckner has contributed to the development of music. Is Bruckner then so different from Mahler?' This remark encapsulates the essential difference between pupil and teacher. Webern's music sprang ultimately from a Mahlerian, High Romantic aesthetic, whereas Hartmann was preternaturally Brucknerian in orientation. The music of Anton Bruckner also linked Hartmann to Hindemith in spirit. The Icelandic composer Jon Thórarinsson who studied at Yale between 1944 and 1947 recalled that, among the composers of the Classic and Romantic period, Anton Bruckner was the one most often referred to by Hindemith. I believe he considered Bruckner, who at this time was practically unknown in America, to be the greatest symphonist after Beethoven.'
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Parsifal on August 26, 2017, 11:43:53 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 26, 2017, 06:55:55 AMI have no real opinion about performing the Bruckner Ninth with the Te Deum as a kind of finale.  But I've never heard it that way, and have no plans to in future  0:)

I would never consider the Te Deum to be a suitable "finale" for the 9th. But at a live concert I can see that there is an argument against sending the audience out into the night after listening to a piece that breaks off before the completion that the composer intended.

I can see ending the concert with something like the Te Deum, not as a substitute finale, but so that the audience leaves the hall having experienced a completed piece of music.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 26, 2017, 01:59:50 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 26, 2017, 08:54:31 AM
The music of Anton Bruckner also linked Hartmann to Hindemith in spirit. The Icelandic composer Jon Thórarinsson who studied at Yale between 1944 and 1947 recalled that, among the composers of the Classic and Romantic period, Anton Bruckner was the one most often referred to by Hindemith. I believe he considered Bruckner, who at this time was practically unknown in America, to be the greatest symphonist after Beethoven.'

Amen!  0:)

In the 1970's, I had a friend who had access to the Library of Congress, and who made a photocopy of the Alfred Orel edition of Bruckner's finale for the Ninth Symphony (i.e. Entwürfe und Skizzen zur IX. Symphonie) from 1934.  I studied the edition fairly carefully for some time, and always thought that a Deryck Cooke might be able to complete it.

In the event it took 4 musicologists, but I personally am quite happy with the result, which goes beyond the Orel edition in that it rectifies the scholar's misinterpretations and uses a few new pages not known to him.

See:

https://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/articlesEnglish/roelandsjacques/roelandsjacques-bruckner_9_finale_critical_account.pdf (https://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/articlesEnglish/roelandsjacques/roelandsjacques-bruckner_9_finale_critical_account.pdf)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on August 26, 2017, 03:12:45 PM
Most interesting!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 27, 2017, 12:48:42 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 26, 2017, 06:55:55 AM
The music of all five movements referred to is each composer at the top of his game, so it is not absurd to canonize them, not absurd at all.

Considering those two symphony-trunks any kind of 'complete,' is absurd, yes.

In fairness, the quotee said that it "is fairly absurd that both Bruckner's 9th and Schubert's b minor symphony have been canonized in their fragmentary forms and people made up justifications why they are "perfect in 2 or 3 movements", respectively."

It's not absurd that we try to get the most out of those works even though they are not finished. But we go well beyond it... in a sort of self-justifying and rationalizing way pretending that these are not just OK to perform because we lack the real thing and still want a taste of it... but that it's actually just perfect the way it is. Exactly what Jo said, actually.

Must admit that I think the Te Deum patch is not a good one... scarcely better than no last movement at all -- and even then only if actually played attacca. But how about tacking Schubert's Symphony in D major, D.708 to the Ninth? Killing two birds with a stone, as it were.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on August 27, 2017, 01:58:15 AM
As I said, I mentioned the apparently bizarre patchings (finale of Schubert's 3rd at the belated first performance of the b minor fragment and Te Deum) is to show that there is virtually no historical evidence that either composer (or more or less contemporary musicians) regarded them as "perfect" in their transmitted form.
But in the last ca. 100 years we have canonized the fragmentary state and mostly disregarded any attempts at patchings or completions. I don't think we should deny the difficulties of the completions for either work. But until very recently or even today it was totally exotic to even bother with them. Before Rattle recorded the 4 movement Bruckner 9th the recordings were by virtually unknown conductors with provincial orchestras. For Schubert there was Mackerras but the overwhelming mainstream did not bother with any completion attempt.

So I think some pluralism is on order, so that listeners and musicians can make up their minds themselves. If every 4th or 5th performance/recording of these two pieces was in a completed version this would be a huge change in perception.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 27, 2017, 02:03:21 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 27, 2017, 01:58:15 AM
As I said, I mentioned the apparently bizarre patchings (finale of Schubert's 3rd at the belated first performance of the b minor fragment and Te Deum) is to show that there is virtually no historical evidence that either composer (or more or less contemporary musicians) regarded them as "perfect" in their transmitted form.
But in the last ca. 100 years we have canonized the fragmentary state and mostly disregarded any attempts at patchings or completions. I don't think we should deny the difficulties of the completions for either work. But until very recently or even today it was totally exotic to even bother with them. Before Rattle recorded the 4 movement Bruckner 9th the recordings were by virtually unknown conductors with provincial orchestras. For Schubert there was Mackerras but the overwhelming mainstream did not bother with any completion attempt.

So I think some pluralism is on order, so that listeners and musicians can make up their minds themselves. If every 4th or 5th performance/recording of these two pieces was in a completed version this would be a huge change in perception.

Couldn't agree more. And Bruckner 9 is still very rare, despite Rattle's fine (and important) efforts. Only M10 has made it mainstream, really... though Bartok Viola Concerto could be argued to be in the mix. And then there are the completions which we don't even think of much; Turandot & Lulu, for one.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 27, 2017, 02:56:19 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 27, 2017, 02:03:21 AM
Couldn't agree more. And Bruckner 9 is still very rare, despite Rattle's fine (and important) efforts. Only M10 has made it mainstream, really... though Bartok Viola Concerto could be argued to be in the mix. And then there are the completions which we don't even think of much; Turandot & Lulu, for one.

That is a great recording, and not just because it includes a very persuasive case for the Finale of the 4 musicologists!  The first three movements are beyond excellent, and that is the opinion of an unreconstructed Jochum fan!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Your Earliest Experiences
Post by: Cato on September 08, 2017, 10:38:01 AM
Inviting others to share their memories: perhaps the extra title has not been noticed?

Today I will write a few things about the Bruckner Fourth Symphony from my first hearing.  I am practically positive that it was the second work of Bruckner's to hit my ears (the Seventh was the first), and I recall being immediately immersed in a medieval atmosphere, and this was before I knew anything about the term "Romantic", which I just ignored. ;)

The music summoned up knights marching and riding, castles, etc. and practically everything about the opening movement brought these kinds of thoughts.  The melancholy slow movement - with its march-like moments also contributed to the "medieval" aspect, and of course there was the Scherzo!

However, and I still marvel at this, a 16-bar section, (specifically bars 334-350 of the Nowak score), in the opening movement summoned up an image of when I was younger, standing in my yard and watching a huge B-52 fly above my house on its way to the local USAF base!

The last movement I found odd, even quirky, for it seemed to be on a different planet, but I trusted Bruckner by that time (bewitched by the Seventh's greatness) and just listened and followed the score!   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 21, 2017, 07:37:26 AM
Rough visualization of why I like B9 with the 4th movement. Not for that movement itself but for what it does to the 3rd.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DH5g6L4WsAA1cSE.jpg)

Quote from: relm1 on August 24, 2017, 04:43:20 PM

I don't get your post at all.  Explain further.

This is meant to illustrate that we end up in a different place after three movements, if we have our horizon fixed on the end of a fourth movement.
In other words, that the emotional context of the third movement is different when we see it as the penultimate, rather than the ultimate movement.
[Sorry for the late answer; didn't see your post there, having been on the bottom of the page]

Quote from: Cato on July 28, 2017, 06:02:10 AM
The Baroque, where more is always MORE!!! 0:)

Many thanks, and let us know your reviews!

Voila. Finally!


The Subtle Miracle Herbert Blomstedt And Bamberg's Cathedral Tour Of Bruckner

(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/09/Blomstedt-Bamberg-Bruckner_Cathedral-Tour_Classical-Critic_Jens-F-Laurson__BAMBERG-DOM-ORCHESTRA__.jpg?width=960)

(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/09/Blomstedt-Bamberg-Bruckner_Cathedral-Tour_Classical-Critic_Jens-F-Laurson__ST-FLORIAN-CATHEDRAL-Final_Applause__.jpg?width=960)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/09/21/the-subtle-miracle-herbert-blomstedt-and-bambergs-cathedral-tour-of-bruckner/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/09/21/the-subtle-miracle-herbert-blomstedt-and-bambergs-cathedral-tour-of-bruckner/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on September 21, 2017, 08:08:38 AM
I personally love the Bruckner 9th in it's three-movement form. I think it sounds so foreboding when it ends on that third movement. I'm actually left quite satisfied.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 21, 2017, 08:11:41 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on September 21, 2017, 07:37:26 AM
Rough visualization of why I like B9 with the 4th movement. Not for that movement itself but for what it does to the 3rd.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DH5g6L4WsAA1cSE.jpg)

This is meant to illustrate that we end up in a different place after three movements, if we have our horizon fixed on the end of a fourth movement.
In other words, that the emotional context of the third movement is different when we see it as the penultimate, rather than the ultimate movement.
[Sorry for the late answer; didn't see your post there, having been on the bottom of the page]

Voila. Finally!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/09/21/the-subtle-miracle-herbert-blomstedt-and-bambergs-cathedral-tour-of-bruckner/[/url]

Hello Jens!  Many thanks for your very nice essay: the review contains excellent information written in an engaging style!  By chance, I am preparing to write my next little essay on hearing the Bruckner Fifth Symphony for the first time...probably well before you were born!   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 21, 2017, 01:19:38 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 25, 2017, 01:53:01 PM
The tragedy of Bruckner's 9th is that, as I recall reading, the finale was more or less complete in some sort of short score that Bruckner wasn't happy with.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 21, 2017, 01:25:26 PM
Woops, hit reply too soon.

My own feeling after reading about the end of Bruckner's life is that Bruckner had completed a short score of the Finale. He wouldn't have regarded it as complete in that he wouldn't have regarded that phase of any of his previous symphony finales as complete. However I believe that he thought he had solved the problem of how to end the symphony, only he was too sick and tired to carry on and fully score it and definitely didn't have enough argue to argue with his friends, colleagues and assistants about its structure and material which would have been beyond their comprehension. He left the short score for posterity to sort out, which, after various vicissitudes, SPCM have succeeded in doing.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 21, 2017, 02:47:32 PM
Energy to argue

:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 21, 2017, 03:22:16 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on September 21, 2017, 01:25:26 PM
Woops, hit reply too soon.

My own feeling after reading about the end of Bruckner's life is that Bruckner had completed a short score of the Finale. He wouldn't have regarded it as complete in that he wouldn't have regarded that phase of any of his previous symphony finales as complete. However I believe that he thought he had solved the problem of how to end the symphony, only he was too sick and tired to carry on and fully score it and definitely didn't have enough energy to argue with his friends, colleagues and assistants about its structure and material which would have been beyond their comprehension. He left the short score for posterity to sort out, which, after various vicissitudes, SPCM have succeeded in doing.

Amen!  0:)   I find their completion of the first version of the Finale quite persuasive, especially in the recording by Simon Rattle and the Berlin Philharmonic.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on September 22, 2017, 07:21:24 AM
Quote from: Cato on September 21, 2017, 03:22:16 PM
Amen!  0:)   I find their completion of the first version of the Finale quite persuasive, especially in the recording by Simon Rattle and the Berlin Philharmonic.

I noted that, and in fact the CD is resting at home.  Must take it for a test drive this weekend.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 09, 2017, 01:53:40 PM

A Survey of Bruckner Cycles


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aRBqVEFm6bU/UPm2FsFICBI/AAAAAAAAF8M/EMaiDsgkkPE/s1600/Anton_Bruckner_II_laurson_600.jpg)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)

Major, much overdue update to the Bruckner survey.

Quote[Ed.10/09/17] A massive, much overdue update: SWR Classic has at last issued Hans Rosbaud's near-complete cycle (2-9) in never before achieved sound quality. Kurt Masur's Bruckner has been re-issued. Daniel Barenboim has recorded a third cycle, now, for the first time with "his" orchestra, the Berliner Staatskapelle. I have reviewed the 7th on Forbes: "Classical CD of the Week: Bruckner for DG" and the 4th here on ionarts: "Dip Your Ears, No. 163 (Visual Bruckner)". Jaap van Zweden had his excellent Bruckner cycle issued on Challenge Records on SACDs. The Korean Symphony Orchestra has recorded a cycle for Korean Decca under Hun-Joung Lim. The Riccardo Chailly cycle has been re-issued cheaply on Decca/Eloquence. Mario Venzago finished his controversial cycle on CPO. Brilliant Classic has put all of Heinz Rögner's Bruckner with the RSO Berlin together and made a complete cycle out of it by adding contemporary East German performances of Vaclav Neumann, Kurt Sanderling, and Franz Konwitschny to it. The Bruckner Orchestra Linz' cycle with Dennis-Russell Davies will be re-issued by SOny in December of this year. And Simone Young completed her very complete set ("00" + "0"), which has been released on Oehms. Global Amazon links have been added in all the lines I had to edit. The incomplete cycles of Dohnanyi & Harnoncourt will be added in the next round of edits
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 12, 2017, 05:43:47 PM
I came across this article about a performance of the original, unrevised Eighth Symphony:

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2017/10/27/philharmonia-to-premiere-original-bruckner/ (https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2017/10/27/philharmonia-to-premiere-original-bruckner/)

An excerpt:

Quotefor Levi, the Eighth Symphony was too long, too similar to the Seventh Symphony and too heavy handed in its orchestration of brass instruments.

"I think Levi thought the piece was just too avant-garde," Hawkshaw said, adding that the rejection of the first edition led Bruckner to revise the piece into the second edition, the version of the piece orchestras has performed since its completion.

Hawkshaw said that some moments of the first edition will be noticeably different for listeners familiar with the second. In particular, Hawkshaw noted differences in the ending of the first movement and the orchestration in the brass. The first edition has its own spontaneity, he added.

Its first movement also ends with what Hawkshaw described as an "upbeat, positive, kind of fanfare coda" expected of a recently successful composer, whereas the second edition's first movement ends "softly and darkly," perhaps in response to rejection.

The portion of the symphony that requires the large brass section that Levi critiqued contributes to the dramatic range of sounds and colors Oundjian sees in the original edition of the symphony.

"When he gets the whole orchestra going — and we have a huge brass section the sound is just unbelievable," Oundjian said. "But then, there will be just two players playing, which makes this a great choice for someone who hasn't been to orchestra concerts: the variety of expression is just exhilarating."
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 28, 2017, 04:46:54 AM
Although there has been little reaction, and no demand  ;) for them, I will continue with my memories of hearing the Bruckner symphonies for the first time, in the hope that others might do the same.

Today, the mighty Fifth Symphony!  0:)

I was perhaps thirteen when I found the Fifth in the DGG performance with - of course! - Eugen Jochum conducting.  I recall finding the opening movement a collage of emotions: it was difficult to figure out how everything connected.  The slow movement struck me as really s  l  o  w, but the Scherzo in contrast was really scherzoic!  And then came the last movement, which seemed like a variation of everything from the earlier movements.

Not yet owning the score at this time, I did not realize that Jochum - in this recording at least (the DGG from 1958) - nearly halves the speed for the grand conclusion, which gave the impression of a truck slamming into a wall in slow motion.

Later I listened to the Angel recording of the work with Otto Klemperer conducting, and was amazed by two things: his interpretation really moved along! 

And it was also transposed to a different key!  ??? :o

The explanation...I had not noticed that my sister had increased the speed of the record player to 45 rpm!  :D

I understand that there is a recording of Jochum conducting the work in Amsterdam (Concertgebouw) in 1985 or 1986, either his last recording or the last work he conducted.  It would be interesting to compare it to the 1958 version.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on November 28, 2017, 05:45:05 AM
For my taste, Jochum's late Bruckner performances (approx post 1982, when he reached age 80) are uniformly more convincing than his previous ones - including his late 70s Dresden cycle. For some reason he stopped accelerating the tempo in climaxes, and this changed the face of his interpretations. They morphed from sometimes out of control conflagrations to something close to Brünnhilde's rock surrounded by Wotan's magic fire. This is particularly noticeable in the last 3 symphonies, which he performed in Bamberg and Munich right up to his death in 1987 (the 9th was his last concert). And yet, it's still recognizably Jochum's Bruckner. The 1986 Amsterdam 5th is superb, but then again, his 1958 BRSO was already a magnificent edifice.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 28, 2017, 05:58:26 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 28, 2017, 04:46:54 AM
I understand that there is a recording of Jochum conducting the work in Amsterdam (Concertgebouw) in 1985 or 1986, either his last recording or the last work he conducted.  It would be interesting to compare it to the 1958 version.

I have the Concertgebouw recording on Tahra. The booklet notes say it was his penultimate concert, 4 Dec 1986. The cover, which says "Very last performance", means the last performance in Amsterdam with the orchestra.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/july2009/Bru5jochumconcert.jpg)

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on November 28, 2017, 08:23:34 AM
*Apparently* the last concert he conducted was in Munich (January 1987, the Philharmonic) and featured the ninth symphony. I say « apparently » because that's what the audio link I got said. I've never seen it confirmed or contradicted anywhere. If somebody has info on this, it would be nice !
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 28, 2017, 08:44:53 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 28, 2017, 05:58:26 AM
I have the Concertgebouw recording on Tahra. The booklet notes say it was his penultimate concert, 4 Dec 1986. The cover, which says "Very last performance", means the last performance in Amsterdam with the orchestra.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/july2009/Bru5jochumconcert.jpg)

Sarge

Sarge!  Dude!  Keep that CD locked up!  $:)  On Amazon it is going for $300.00+  ??? :o 8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 28, 2017, 11:32:02 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 28, 2017, 05:58:26 AM
I have the Concertgebouw recording on Tahra. The booklet notes say it was his penultimate concert, 4 Dec 1986. The cover, which says "Very last performance", means the last performance in Amsterdam with the orchestra.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/july2009/Bru5jochumconcert.jpg) (http://a-fwd.to/7mqxCoo)

Sarge

presumably same performance as this, is it?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51n4bHcpO-L.jpg)

+

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51LzFOOgzBL.jpg) (http://a-fwd.to/7mqxCoo)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 28, 2017, 03:15:23 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 28, 2017, 11:32:02 AM
presumably same performance as this, is it?

Yep. appears to be the same; date and timings identical except for a five second difference in the Adagio (20:43 v 20:48).

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 01, 2017, 11:41:36 AM
I've just become aware of the Symphonic Prelude from 1876.

This is work that discovered after WW2 in the handwriting of Bruckner's pupil Krzyzanowski. It is assumed that Bruckner had completed a symphonic movement and gave it to Krzyzanowski to orchestrate, either to assess his skills in orchestration, or because he wanted to 'hear' his symphonic movement.

It's a fascinating movement, a truncated sonata form, where, as in the Ninth, the recapitulation is also a development. Well worth listening to.

For my money though, what is most interesting is that it is quite short, 6.5 minutes (Järvi), 8 minutes or so (Jurowski) (the two available recordings). The significance of this is that it proves (if proof was needed) that Bruckner could write to particular lengths and with concision, and was not, as per the helpless Bruckner legend, always condemned to be churning out gargantuan movements. (Of course the Scherzos and Trios of the Symphonies, the whole of String Quintet &c &c also show this, but the legend is strong).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on December 01, 2017, 11:49:08 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on December 01, 2017, 11:41:36 AM
I've just become aware of the Symphonic Prelude from 1876.

This is work that discovered after WW2 in the handwriting of Bruckner's pupil Krzyzanowski. It is assumed that Bruckner had completed a symphonic movement and gave it to Krzyzanowski to orchestrate, either to assess his skills in orchestration, or because he wanted to 'hear' his symphonic movement.

It's a fascinating movement, a truncated sonata form, where, as in the Ninth, the recapitulation is also a development. Well worth listening to.

For my money though, what is most interesting is that it is quite short, 6.5 minutes (Järvi), 8 minutes or so (Jurowski) (the two available recordings). The significance of this is that it proves (if proof was needed) that Bruckner could write to particular lengths and with concision, and was not, as per the helpless Bruckner legend, always condemned to be churning out gargantuan movements. (Of course the Scherzos and Trios of the Symphonies, the whole of String Quintet &c &c also show this, but the legend is strong).

This is much disputed. My hunch is that Bruckner had no input in this piece. It does not sound like anything by Bruckner. See Benjamin Gunnar-Cohr's article on the subject:

https://www.abruckner.com/Data/documents/symphonisches_praeludium_essay.pdf (https://www.abruckner.com/Data/documents/symphonisches_praeludium_essay.pdf)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 01, 2017, 01:03:42 PM
Quote from: André on December 01, 2017, 11:49:08 AM
This is much disputed. My hunch is that Bruckner had no input in this piece. It does not sound like anything by Bruckner. See Benjamin Gunnar-Cohr's article on the subject:

https://www.abruckner.com/Data/documents/symphonisches_praeludium_essay.pdf (https://www.abruckner.com/Data/documents/symphonisches_praeludium_essay.pdf)

Well, it sounds a lot like Bruckner to me. And the Gunnar-Cohr article you link to does argue that it is by Bruckner, though not orchestrated by him.

I can imagine that Bruckner had quite a lot of drafts and fragmentary material lying around in his study, and he may have caused his pupil to orchestrate this one for a particular occasion, or simply to see what it looked like in full-score.

Anyway, just another little Bruckner-related piece for those interested.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on December 01, 2017, 01:18:00 PM
I totally agree that it's a very good piece, and I enjoy it immensely. But there are too many question marks to make me believe Bruckner may have written it around 1875. If it had been dated post-1890 I might have bought the argument, but it's a very forward-looking piece, quite audacious in places, at a time when Bruckner was busy writing his most learned, quasi-archaïc sounding work, the 5th symphony. It just doesn't jive. Even the late (1893) Helgoland sounds more conservative than that.

Obviously, I may be tricked by the orchestration, which includes instruments Bruckner never used ! It was initially orchestrated in the mahlerian/post-romantic idiom by someone who thought it was a lost work from Mahler's youth.

I read the comments of the various people who wrote on the YT page that features it
(https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JiRdgFLEn8M (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JiRdgFLEn8M), and opinions are all over the place - which is as it should, as the authorship cannot be ascertained one way or another. Same thing on this Mahler forum:
http://gustavmahlerboard.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=86e3c896531996892d008c86e33e7be7&topic=1527.15 (http://gustavmahlerboard.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=86e3c896531996892d008c86e33e7be7&topic=1527.15)

So, what we have is a fascinating orchestral composition that just *might* be by Bruckner, but (for me) is more probably the work of a very gifted student - even Zemlinsky has been named as a possible author. In any case, thanks for bringing it up ! As I mentioned, it's a very special curiosity. My version is that of the premiere under Forster. It's more majestic than Järvi's.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 05, 2017, 04:46:51 PM
One of the YouTube comments has this claim:

QuoteAfter WW II the Austrian composer H. Tschuppik discovered in the estate of his uncle R. Krzyzanowski a copy of an orchestrated score of 1876 of this work, on which Krzyzanowski had written "von Anton Bruckner". Both Mahler and Krzyzanowski were at that time Bruckner's pupils. A. Gürsching, who was not aware of this original orchestrated score, but only of a four stave particello also made by Krzyzanowski, thought it was Mahler's and (re-)orchestrated it on Mahler's way.

THAT sounds pretty conclusive...if it is true!  8)  The comment is actually culled from the 2006 essay by Benjamin Cohrs on this work:

https://www.abruckner.com/Data/documents/symphonisches_praeludium_essay.pdf (https://www.abruckner.com/Data/documents/symphonisches_praeludium_essay.pdf)

QuoteOn the  one  hand,  one  may  argue  we  have  only  Krzyzanowski's  copy  and his word that this music was composed by Bruckner.  Documentary research gave no further evidence; no  further  manuscripts  from  Bruckner's  own  hand  survive,  and  also  in  his  letters  and  private  annotations nothing is to be found about it....

However, it seems clear from Hiltl's stylistic examination that the musical material itself is indeed all Bruckner's, and in
particular because some of these ideas even anticipate some music from the Ninth Symphony, which certainly  nobody  can  have  known  already  in  1876!  The  form  is  quite  unique  –  all  three  themes  are  merely lyrical (as later in the first movement of the Seventh Symphony). The first theme contains the core  of  the  Main  Themes  of  the  First  and  Second  Symphony  in  C  minor,  as  well  as  allusions  to  Wagner's Walkuere,  which  Bruckner  may  have  known  from  the  piano  score  of  1865,  or  some  orchestral extracts given in concerts in Vienna in 1872. (He first heard the entire Walkuere in Bayreuth
in  August  1876,  which  may  suggest  the  Praeludium could  be  the  composer's  reaction  to  the  Ring experience. But this would leave only very little time for the conception and abandoning of it, and it being given to Krzyzanowski for copying, all in late 1876.)

Why might Herr Krzyzanowski be untrustworthy in this case?  It would be easier to find him untrustworthy if he had claimed to be the piece's composer!



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on December 06, 2017, 05:08:17 AM
Did you listen to the piece, Cato?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 06, 2017, 04:56:16 PM
Quote from: André on December 06, 2017, 05:08:17 AM
Did you listen to the piece, Cato?

It is on the list for tomorrow!  (i.e. Dec. 7th)  8)

Quote from: André on December 06, 2017, 05:08:17 AM

As I mentioned, it's a very special curiosity. My version is that of the premiere under Forster. It's more majestic than Järvi's.


I cannot find that performance anywhere: the Bruckner website mentions a performance by "Moore's School Orchestra."  On Amazon, only the Jarvi is offered.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 07, 2017, 01:57:48 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 06, 2017, 04:56:16 PM
It is on the list for tomorrow!  (i.e. Dec. 7th)  8)

I cannot find that performance anywhere: the Bruckner website mentions a performance by "Moore's School Orchestra."  On Amazon, only the Jarvi is offered.

Did you look under Mahler? Or Bruckner? The Jurowski is out by now, too. (http://a-fwd.to/1WRdj0j)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 07, 2017, 07:54:38 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 07, 2017, 01:57:48 AM
Did you look under Mahler? Or Bruckner? The Jurowski is out by now, too. (http://a-fwd.to/1WRdj0j)

Do you have the right recording?  The Totenfeier was an early version of the opening of Mahler's Second Symphony.

This is on YouTube: note the screen still shows a cover with "Totenfeier" instead of Symphonic Prelude!

https://www.youtube.com/v/u_UDjmm5as0

Quote from: André on December 06, 2017, 05:08:17 AM
Did you listen to the piece, Cato?

Yes, to the above four times!   ;D

I would say yes, this was composed by Bruckner.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 07, 2017, 12:47:32 PM
Quote from: Cato on December 07, 2017, 07:54:38 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 07, 2017, 01:57:48 AM
Did you look under Mahler? Or Bruckner? The Jurowski is out by now, too. (http://a-fwd.to/1WRdj0j)

Do you have the right recording?  The Totenfeier was an early version of the opening of Mahler's Second Symphony.


You are asking me... and yet you found the proof that I was right? Aside, Cato, you know I know what Totenfeier is...  :(

It's simply  not mentioned on the cover. But on the back cover you'll find it included.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 08, 2017, 04:05:13 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 07, 2017, 12:47:32 PM
Do you have the right recording?  The Totenfeier was an early version of the opening of Mahler's Second Symphony.



You are asking me... and yet you found the proof that I was right? Aside, Cato, you know I know what Totenfeier is...  :(

It's simply  not mentioned on the cover. But on the back cover you'll find it included.

Sorry, just confused by the (seemingly) mismarked picture!  0:)

More later! ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 10, 2017, 02:20:32 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 07, 2017, 07:54:38 AM


https://www.youtube.com/v/u_UDjmm5as0



Concerning the above, musicologist Benjamin Gunnar-Cohrs wrote:

Quote...From stylistic comparison and analysis it seems to be clear that at least the entire musical substance is by Bruckner himself, most
likely  in  the  first  stage  of  the  »emerging  autograph  score«,  containing  all  String  parts,  some  important lines for Woodwind and Brass, perhaps also a few passages being already entirely complete – very similar to what survived from the Finale of the Ninth Symphony....In all, this Symphonic Prelude constitutes an extremely advanced, ›experimental‹ sonata movement, with a dramatic, almost radical second part combining development, recapitulation and coda to a unified and  radical  »zweite  Abtheilung«.  The  musical  language  and  structure,  the  dramatic  sweep  anticipates much of Bruckner's last composition...

Having listened to the piece again, I can only concur with this: I hear nothing of Mahler's style, who was not a direct student of Bruckner's.

https://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/articlesEnglish/cohrsprelude/bg_cohrs_bruckner_symphonic_prelude_100817.pdf (https://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/articlesEnglish/cohrsprelude/bg_cohrs_bruckner_symphonic_prelude_100817.pdf)

Concerning both composers, Bruno Walter, however, wrote this in 1940, in the Bruckner Society of America journal called Chord and Discord:

QuoteGreat was the difference between the two, as I have shown; but conjure up one and the other is not very distant.

The entire essay is worth your time:

http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/articles/bruckner/brucknerandmahler.php (http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/articles/bruckner/brucknerandmahler.php)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on December 10, 2017, 04:48:48 AM
Leopold Nowak studied the score intently and couldn't make up his mind. In the end he refused to list it as a work by Bruckner.

I have no idea who besides Bruckner could have written it. An early Wagner work sounds like nothing Wagner would have written 25 years later, and would certainly not contain germs of Meistersinger or Parsifal.

What really makes a Bruckner attribution improbable to me is the fact that some claim the Symphonic Prelude anticipates the 9th symphony and Helgoland, works Bruckner would not write before much later in life, when his style had advanced quite radically. Bruckner was a slow developer, and would go back to old scores over and over again. And yet he had this premonitory glimpse into the distant future that mysteriously didn't appear in any form in his works until 25 years later ? And in the interim no score, no sketch, no mention from anybody about a Symphonic Prelude of his ?? Defies logic.

My bet is that Bruckner may have outlined a theme and given it to his students as an exercise - and never looked back. All composers, especially organists, did that. Some students take that as a springboard and try to develop it in their own burgeoning style, while others ape some of their teacher's compositional traits. That last scenario is the most probable. But it does not solve the riddle.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mahlerian on December 10, 2017, 04:56:34 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 10, 2017, 02:20:32 AMHaving listened to the piece again, I can only concur with this: I hear nothing of Mahler's style, who was not a direct student of Bruckner's.

https://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/articlesEnglish/cohrsprelude/bg_cohrs_bruckner_symphonic_prelude_100817.pdf (https://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/articlesEnglish/cohrsprelude/bg_cohrs_bruckner_symphonic_prelude_100817.pdf)

Concerning both composers, Bruno Walter, however, wrote this in 1940, in the Bruckner Society of America journal called Chord and Discord:

The entire essay is worth your time:

http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/articles/bruckner/brucknerandmahler.php (http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/articles/bruckner/brucknerandmahler.php)

Walter was, of course, very close to Mahler, but I should say that Mahler did attend a few classes taught by Bruckner, though especially after 1900, he seemed keen on distancing himself from his predecessor, probably because of the divergence in their styles.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 10, 2017, 06:22:10 AM
Quote from: André on December 10, 2017, 04:48:48 AM
Leopold Nowak studied the score intently and couldn't make up his mind. In the end he refused to list it as a work by Bruckner.

I have no idea who besides Bruckner could have written it. An early Wagner work sounds like nothing Wagner would have written 25 years later, and would certainly not contain germs of Meistersinger or Parsifal.

What really makes a Bruckner attribution improbable to me is the fact that some claim the Symphonic Prelude anticipates the 9th symphony and Helgoland, works Bruckner would not write before much later in life, when his style had advanced quite radically. Bruckner was a slow developer, and would go back to old scores over and over again. And yet he had this premonitory glimpse into the distant future that mysteriously didn't appear in any form in his works until 25 years later ? And in the interim no score, no sketch, no mention from anybody about a Symphonic Prelude of his ?? Defies logic.

My bet is that Bruckner may have outlined a theme and given it to his students as an exercise
- and never looked back. All composers, especially organists, did that. Some students take that as a springboard and try to develop it in their own burgeoning style, while others ape some of their teacher's compositional traits. That last scenario is the most probable. But it does not solve the riddle.

Given that the score was in the hands of Bruckner's student Rudolf Krzyzanowski, one might assume that he took the themes and created the work, except that on the manuscript was the attribution of the entire work to Bruckner, not just the themes, and that Krzyzanowski showed no such talent in his only published work, a group of 5 Lieder for voice and piano.  His career was spent as a conductor.

If you can read German, here is a Wikipedia article on him:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Krzyzanowski (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Krzyzanowski)

I agree that it is odd to find an anticipation of the Ninth Symphony of the 1890's in a sketch from the 1870's.  However, I can attest that right now I am writing a novel based on a character created in a short story 25 years ago.  One also can marvel at the nearly 60-year time span needed by Goethe for the creation of Faust.   I realize that these examples prove nothing specific about Bruckner, but that years can go by while an artistic idea either lies dormant, grows slowly, or percolates into something different.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on December 10, 2017, 09:47:59 AM
I do not agree. The only trace of an attribution to Bruckner is the writing on the back page of the lost Krzyzanowski manuscript « von Anton Bruckner ». It can mean anything and many things, including a mental note that this specific manuscript is « based on Bruckner » - a theme, an exercize or what not. Nowhere is it mentioned that the « entire work » is attributed to Bruckner. If that was the case, Bruckner's name would appear on the front, not the back page. The front page has the inscription « Rudolf Krzyzanowski cop. 1876 ». To me it suggests that this is a copy. But where is the original ? One can only speculate - which we certainly do  :D

If it was indeed by Bruckner, it would be extremely surprising that Krzyzanowski would have kept that a secret. He was close to Mahler, Wolf and Rott, and someone, sometime, would have found an occasion to perform it. Krzyzanowski being a renowned conductor - and a direct competitor of Mahler - would probably have conducted it, whatever its paternity. It's a fine piece, and one any conductor of the time would have relished presenting in concert.

I think Nowak was correct to doubt its authenticity - and so is Gunnar-Cohrs, who in the last paragraph of his essay ascribes it as « possibly » by Bruckner.  As a composer, Krzyzanowski wrote more than a mere set of lieder: a symphony, a tone poem (or overture), various chamber works, etc. All those scores but the lieder have ben lost. Who knows what they sounded like ?

In the end, the only thing we can be certain of is that there is no certainty about the Symphonic Prelude.

PS: the wiki article is also in French. There is no difference as far as I can tell.

[Edit]: the french article is actually more detailed than the german one:

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Krzyzanowski (https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Krzyzanowski).

According to its author (whom?) Krzymanowski's compositions were contemporary with Bruckner's 4th and 5th symphonies as well as Mahler's Klagende Lied and Rott's symphony. He seems to have devoted his career to conducting thereafter.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 10, 2017, 12:37:22 PM
Quote from: André on December 10, 2017, 09:47:59 AM

PS: the wiki article is also in French. There is no difference as far as I can tell.

[Edit]: the french article is actually more detailed than the german one:

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Krzyzanowski (https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Krzyzanowski).

According to its author (whom?) Krzyzanowski's compositions were contemporary with Bruckner's 4th and 5th symphonies as well as Mahler's Klagende Lied and Rott's symphony. He seems to have devoted his career to conducting thereafter.


Many thanks for the link to the French article!   Barring some discovery about Krzyzanowski, it looks like the mystery will always be with us!  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: kishnevi on December 10, 2017, 12:51:05 PM
Quote from: André on December 10, 2017, 09:47:59 AM
I do not agree. The only trace of an attribution to Bruckner is the writing on the back page of the lost Krzyzanowski manuscript « von Anton Bruckner ». It can mean anything and many things, including a mental note that this specific manuscript is « based on Bruckner » - a theme, an exercize or what not. Nowhere is it mentioned that the « entire work » is attributed to Bruckner. If that was the case, Bruckner's name would appear on the front, not the back page. The front page has the inscription « Rudolf Krzyzanowski cop. 1876 ». To me it suggests that this is a copy. But where is the original ? One can only speculate - which we certainly do  :D

If it was indeed by Bruckner, it would be extremely surprising that Krzyzanowski would have kept that a secret. He was close to Mahler, Wolf and Rott, and someone, sometime, would have found an occasion to perform it. Krzyzanowski being a renowned conductor - and a direct competitor of Mahler - would probably have conducted it, whatever its paternity. It's a fine piece, and one any conductor of the time would have relished presenting in concert.

I think Nowak was correct to doubt its authenticity - and so is Gunnar-Cohrs, who in the last paragraph of his essay ascribes it as « possibly » by Bruckner.  As a composer, Krzyzanowski wrote more than a mere set of lieder: a symphony, a tone poem (or overture), various chamber works, etc. All those scores but the lieder have ben lost. Who knows what they sounded like ?

In the end, the only thing we can be certain of is that there is no certainty about the Symphonic Prelude.

PS: the wiki article is also in French. There is no difference as far as I can tell.

[Edit]: the french article is actually more detailed than the german one:

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Krzyzanowski (https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Krzyzanowski).

According to its author (whom?) Krzymanowski's compositions were contemporary with Bruckner's 4th and 5th symphonies as well as Mahler's Klagende Lied and Rott's symphony. He seems to have devoted his career to conducting thereafter.

My German is pretty weak, but if it was based on a theme or other materials provided by Bruckner, wouldn't another preposition or even a phrase be used instead of "von"?...aus or nach, I think.

To me von implies the whole thing was obtained from Bruckner.  But  it does not imply necessarily that Bruckner was the composer.   Bruckner might have given him the entire score...of a piece written by someone else--but that would be covered by von.

I do think the fact that the piece was never publicized makes it likely Bruckner did not write it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mahlerian on December 10, 2017, 01:48:08 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 10, 2017, 12:51:05 PM
My German is pretty weak, but if it was based on a theme or other materials provided by Bruckner, wouldn't another preposition or even a phrase be used instead of "von"?...aus or nach, I think.

"Nach" is usually used to indicate that a work is "in the manner of" some other composer or artist.  My German isn't perfect either, though, so I couldn't tell you specifically what "von" would indicate here either.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 10, 2017, 02:03:46 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 10, 2017, 12:51:05 PM
My German is pretty weak, but if it was based on a theme or other materials provided by Bruckner, wouldn't another preposition or even a phrase be used instead of "von"?...aus or nach, I think.

To me von implies the whole thing was obtained from Bruckner.  But  it does not imply necessarily that Bruckner was the composer.   Bruckner might have given him the entire score...of a piece written by someone else--but that would be covered by von.


Quote from: Mahlerian on December 10, 2017, 01:48:08 PM
"Nach" is usually used to indicate that a work is "in the manner of" some other composer or artist.  My German isn't perfect either, though, so I couldn't tell you specifically what "von" would indicate here either.

Right!  "Nach" would imply "after Bruckner" i.e. in the style of.  If the manuscript were from Bruckner's library, then "aus" would be correct (e.g. Das Buch ist aus der Stadtbuecherei, i.e. "The book is from the public library."

Unfortunately, "von" can mean both "by" and "from" e.g. "Das ist ein Geschenk von meiner Freundin"  (That is a gift from my girl friend.)

"Ein Werk von Bruckner aus den Archiven..."  (A work by Bruckner from the archives...)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on December 10, 2017, 03:35:10 PM
I'll see if I can upload the Foster version (the « helgolandisms » are more to the fore than in the Järvi interpretation). Actually, I'll ask a friend to do it for me  :D. That friend is a regular contributor to the John Berky website. Although no musicologist, he's been a Bruckner nut since our high school days. I'll ask him his opinion on the subject. I'm curious to see what he'll tell me.

The upload could take a few weeks. We have a Christmas supper on December 19th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2017, 03:41:38 PM
Quote from: André on December 10, 2017, 03:35:10 PM
The upload could take a few weeks. We have a Christmas supper on December 19th.

You have a really slow connection, eh?  ;D ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 10, 2017, 03:43:45 PM
Quote from: André on December 10, 2017, 03:35:10 PM
I'll see if I can upload the Foster version (the « helgolandisms » are more to the fore than in the Järvi interpretation). Actually, I'll ask a friend to do it for me  :D. That friend is a regular contributor to the John Berky website. Although no musicologist, he's been a Bruckner nut since our high school days. I'll ask him his opinion on the subject. I'm curious to see what he'll tell me.

The upload could take a few weeks. We have a Christmas supper on December 19th.

Vielen Dank im voraus!!!  0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on December 10, 2017, 03:52:08 PM
Bitte schön !

(Hope I didn't muff that one  ;D)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 10, 2017, 05:06:37 PM
I'll look forward to hearing the Foster interpretation.

I don't have any difficulty in thinking the whole thing is by Bruckner. I imagine that throughout his composing life he would have been jotting down sketches, drafting short-score passages &c and one day in 1876 he thought "Now let's see how that Krzyzanowski's getting on. Here's few pages a wrote a little while ago, he can orchestrate them!"

The piece itself is interesting because it so concise, but if Bruckner had taken it further he would have expanded it in all sorts of ways. Usually when we listen to Bruckner 'versions' it's perfectly finished compositions ruined by officious interventions by Bruckner's friends' forcing him to revise what was already wonderful. But this piece is a genuine sketch, the best analogy I can offer is the odd and perfunctory first version of the Fourth Symphony... which did need revisions.

When I have time to listen to the piece again I'll point out the passage which I thinks proves Bruckner wrote it (in that no-one else could have), I'll give the timing (ie X minutes Y seconds in the Jurowski version).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 10, 2017, 05:18:09 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on December 10, 2017, 05:06:37 PM

When I have time to listen to the piece again I'll point out the passage which I thinks proves Bruckner wrote it (in that no-one else could have), I'll give the timing (ie X minutes Y seconds in the Jurowski version).


8)  Great to know!

Here is something interesting: in the Mahler archives is a post card from 1880 from Bruckner to Mahler, which contains two themes, the one by Wagner (the Valhalla theme from Der Ring), but the other is a theme from a march (Fatinitza)* by Franz von Suppe' !

* called Faninitza in the article. (Misspelled by Bruckner ?)

See:

https://www.gustav-mahler.eu/index.php/personen-2/422-bruckner-anton-1824-1896 (https://www.gustav-mahler.eu/index.php/personen-2/422-bruckner-anton-1824-1896)

Here is the work in question: the theme on Bruckner's card is from the Trio.

https://www.youtube.com/v/sVShfWyYbjI

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on December 10, 2017, 07:20:37 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on December 10, 2017, 05:06:37 PM
I'll look forward to hearing the Foster interpretation.

I don't have any difficulty in thinking the whole thing is by Bruckner. I imagine that throughout his composing life he would have been jotting down sketches, drafting short-score passages &c and one day in 1876 he thought "Now let's see how that Krzyzanowski's getting on. Here's few pages a wrote a little while ago, he can orchestrate them!"

The piece itself is interesting because it so concise, but if Bruckner had taken it further he would have expanded it in all sorts of ways. Usually when we listen to Bruckner 'versions' it's perfectly finished compositions ruined by officious interventions by Bruckner's friends' forcing him to revise what was already wonderful. But this piece is a genuine sketch, the best analogy I can offer is the odd and perfunctory first version of the Fourth Symphony... which did need revisions.

When I have time to listen to the piece again I'll point out the passage which I thinks proves Bruckner wrote it (in that no-one else could have), I'll give the timing (ie X minutes Y seconds in the Jurowski version).

Ironically, Jurowski (or his disc producer) seems to think otherwise: on this disc the Symphonisches Praeludium is attributed to Mahler ! I haven't read the booklet notes, but the back cover is unequivocal:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Ghtf570lL._SX644_.jpg)

I personally doubt the Mahler attribution as well.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 10, 2017, 10:44:44 PM
Quote from: André on December 10, 2017, 07:20:37 PM
Ironically, Jurowski (or his disc producer) seems to think otherwise: on this disc the Symphonisches Praeludium is attributed to Mahler ! I haven't read the booklet notes, but the back cover is unequivocal:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Ghtf570lL._SX644_.jpg)

I personally doubt the Mahler attribution as well.

This makes sense, in a way, because he is using the Guersching version/orchestration -- and Guersching operated under the assumption that it was a work by Mahler's, not Bruckner's.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 11, 2017, 10:27:57 PM
I had another several listens I think it's all vintage Bruckner. The passage that most convinced me was the second subject (roughly 2.00 - 4.00 in the Jurowski recording).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 12, 2017, 12:40:40 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on December 11, 2017, 10:27:57 PM
I had another several listens I think it's all vintage Bruckner. The passage that most convinced me was the second subject (roughly 2.00 - 4.00 in the Jurowski recording).

It certainly sounds very Brucknerish. I had the same impression on first and subsequent listening. Almost too lush, but that might be due to the faux-Mahlerian orchestration of Guersching's.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: motoboy on December 13, 2017, 08:08:01 AM
Please share your recommendations of recordings of Te Deum and the Requiem. These are next on my list of music to digest.

I typically like Karajan, Mehta, Boulez, MTT, Walter, Ormandy, Klemperer, Rattle.

I typically don't like Solti (except I love his opera work), Ozawa, Levine, Abbado, Muti.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 13, 2017, 08:48:58 AM
Quote from: motoboy on December 13, 2017, 08:08:01 AM
Please share your recommendations of recordings of Te Deum and the Requiem. These are next on my list of music to digest.

I typically like Karajan, Mehta, Boulez, MTT, Walter, Ormandy, Klemperer, Rattle.

I typically don't like Solti (except I love his opera work), Ozawa, Levine, Abbado, Muti.

Greetings!

The DGG recordings of Eugen Jochum are necessary for Bruckner fans: this is a nice collection....and the Te Deum RAWKS!  8)

[asin]B01F2RGLFI[/asin]

For the Requiem (not included in the above for some reason), I have this CD and can recommend it:

[asin]B000002ZJR[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: motoboy on December 14, 2017, 04:58:00 AM
Thanks! I put those in my shopping list.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: HIPster on December 17, 2017, 06:54:20 AM
On Friday, December 15th, I caught an excellent performance of Bruckner's 7th Symphony, performed by the Los Angeles Philharmonic, led by Michael Tilson Thomas.

This was my first ever Bruckner concert.  :)

Here's a review of the prior evening's performance:

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/la-et-cm-mtt-la-phil-review-20171216-story.html
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2017, 07:00:10 AM
Quote from: HIPster on December 17, 2017, 06:54:20 AM
On Friday, December 15th, I caught an excellent performance of Bruckner's 7th Symphony, performed by the Los Angeles Philharmonic, led by Michael Tilson Thomas.

This was my first ever Bruckner concert.  :)

Here's a review of the prior evening's performance:

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/la-et-cm-mtt-la-phil-review-20171216-story.html

Is MTT becoming a Brucknerian? Stay tuned... :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on December 18, 2017, 09:54:05 AM
Quote from: HIPster on December 17, 2017, 06:54:20 AM
On Friday, December 15th, I caught an excellent performance of Bruckner's 7th Symphony, performed by the Los Angeles Philharmonic, led by Michael Tilson Thomas.

This was my first ever Bruckner concert.  :)

Here's a review of the prior evening's performance:

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/la-et-cm-mtt-la-phil-review-20171216-story.html

So, Dave - did you enjoy it?
:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 21, 2018, 03:03:38 PM
Link to the January 19, 2018 concert of the SWF orchestra and its new MD, maverick conductor Teodor Currentzis, who chose to inaugurate his tenure with Bruckner's 9th symphony.  It's a daring choice for such an ccasion, but Maestro Currentzis does not stop there: he has devised his own original solution to the vexing problem of the finale. Hear for yourself:


https://www.swr.de/swr-classic/symphonieorchester/19-01-2018-swr-symphonieorchester-stuttgart/-/id=17055322/did=19361728/nid=17055322/agmzkm/index.html (https://www.swr.de/swr-classic/symphonieorchester/19-01-2018-swr-symphonieorchester-stuttgart/-/id=17055322/did=19361728/nid=17055322/agmzkm/index.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 01, 2018, 04:55:00 AM
Allow me to continue my little series about my first experiences with the Bruckner symphonies c. 55 years ago!

Today: the Sixth Symphony.  And as always, I am talking about the Eugen Jochum performance on DGG.

The first time I ever heard the symphony, the proclamation of the main theme in the first movement brought up a completely cinematic image: a Cecil B. De Mille scene of an ancient throne room, dozens of attendants sprayed all over the area with peacock fans etc., where a vampish female potentate is marching down the stairs from her throne, the camera pulling back to display an ever more astounding throne room, showing that it is more expansive and ornately bizarre than one thought at first. 8)

What can I say?!  That is precisely what the music conjured up!  The image has been hard to shake! ;)

Needless to say, I found the rest of the movement fascinating, especially by the occasionally minor seconds floating around in the violins.

The slow movement was quite a change, and I found it to be absolutely enchanting, and still consider it to be one of the most soulful pieces ever composed.  I once described the final minutes of it (starting at the return of the little funeral march) in a novel, where a young organist (named Tom) has adapted it for a funeral for a child killed in a bicycle accident:

QuoteSo then Tom began to play the Bruckner excerpt.  The first two bars seemed more tragic than in practice, and he had to ignore an impulse to cut the repetition of the opening four-bar theme that he had interpolated into the piece.  The next two bars rose and evoked more of a cry of anguish than any hope!  What was happening?  Those two bars were supposed to argue with the first ones, not commiserate!  When the repetition came, Tom quickly changed the stops and made the music softer.  That was better.  Now a short dialogue in the upper register ensued, followed by a chorale that gave a distant angelicity to the opening.  Then an upward struggle with sixteenth notes, ending in a huge, slow, climactic descent in eighth notes.  But this was no descent into hopelessness, rather it was an affirmation of a foundation and of a connection between heaven and earth, a Jacob's Ladder being extended downward to all those who had the faith to take the first step.  And then the farewell most serene, the flute-and-clarinet melody slowly hovering on high, waving good-bye, as it faded away into the blissful otherworld. 

The Scherzo I found rather off-kilter and fun: perhaps this movement is why Bruckner said:  "Die Sechste ist die keckste!" ("The Sixth is the sassiest!")  And the last movement!  What a roller-coaster ride with its - again - rather unexpected lurches and irregular nature.

As a whole, the entire symphony really struck me as unusual, with the first two movements, and obviously especially the slow movement, being the most striking.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 01, 2018, 06:18:22 AM
Terrific -- stunning -- performance of the ORF RSO under Markus Poschner... neither of which are ingredients I would have had high on my list for even serviceable Bruckner.

Truly revealed the 0th for me.

(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F02%2FAnton_Bruckner_II_ORF-RSO__laurson_960.jpg%3Fwidth%3D960)
Review: Anton Bruckner's Zeroth Symphony, A Viennese Miracle
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/02/24/review-anton-bruckners-zeroth-symphony-a-viennese-miracle/#78e34beb14a1 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/02/24/review-anton-bruckners-zeroth-symphony-a-viennese-miracle/#78e34beb14a1)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 01, 2018, 04:53:51 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 01, 2018, 06:18:22 AM
Terrific -- stunning -- performance of the ORF RSO under Markus Poschner... neither of which are ingredients I would have had high on my list for even serviceable Bruckner.

Truly revealed the 0th for me.

(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F02%2FAnton_Bruckner_II_ORF-RSO__laurson_960.jpg%3Fwidth%3D960)
Review: Anton Bruckner's Zeroth Symphony, A Viennese Miracle
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/02/24/review-anton-bruckners-zeroth-symphony-a-viennese-miracle/#78e34beb14a1 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/02/24/review-anton-bruckners-zeroth-symphony-a-viennese-miracle/#78e34beb14a1)

I heard Die Nullte three or four years ago at a performance in the Toledo Cathedral (Roman Catholic) by the Toledo Symphony conducted by Stefan Sanderling.

They treated it like a major symphony, and so it sounded great, like a major symphony!  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 02, 2018, 09:36:41 AM
A new edition of the 8th symphony has been given its baptism by fire recently:


https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/news/new_edition_of_the/ (https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/news/new_edition_of_the/)

The Toronto Symphony is performing it this spring. I will attend their Montreal concert on May 8. As far as I can tell from the meagre detailds that have emerged it is not a big change from the Nowak score. Anyhow, it should be a nice concert. Peter Oundjian is a sound if unadventurous brucknerian.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on March 02, 2018, 10:19:28 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 01, 2018, 04:55:00 AM
Allow me to continue my little series about my first experiences with the Bruckner symphonies c. 55 years ago!

Today: the Sixth Symphony.  And as always, I am talking about the Eugen Jochum performance on DGG.

The first time I ever heard the symphony, the proclamation of the main theme in the first movement brought up a completely cinematic image: a Cecil B. De Mille scene of an ancient throne room, dozens of attendants sprayed all over the area with peacock fans etc., where a vampish female potentate is marching down the stairs from her throne, the camera pulling back to display an ever more astounding throne room, showing that it is more expansive and ornately bizarre than one thought at first. 8)

What can I say?!  That is precisely what the music conjured up!  The image has been hard to shake! ;)

Needless to say, I found the rest of the movement fascinating, especially by the occasionally minor seconds floating around in the violins.

The slow movement was quite a change, and I found it to be absolutely enchanting, and still consider it to be one of the most soulful pieces ever composed.  I once described the final minutes of it (starting at the return of the little funeral march) in a novel, where a young organist (named Tom) has adapted it for a funeral for a child killed in a bicycle accident:

The Scherzo I found rather off-kilter and fun: perhaps this movement is why Bruckner said:  "Die Sechste ist die keckste!" ("The Sixth is the sassiest!")  And the last movement!  What a roller-coaster ride with its - again - rather unexpected lurches and irregular nature.

As a whole, the entire symphony really struck me as unusual, with the first two movements, and obviously especially the slow movement, being the most striking.

Thanks for the reminder; your post prompted me to revisit the symphony, and that passage in particular.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 02, 2018, 10:38:51 AM
Quote from: André on March 02, 2018, 09:36:41 AM
A new edition of the 8th symphony has been given its baptism by fire recently:
... Peter Oundjian is a sound if unadventurous brucknerian.

In that case, it's quite surprising (nice) that he bothered with a new edition at all. So often conductors don't bother learning a new edition if they already have one under their belt.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 02, 2018, 12:46:36 PM
According to John Berky's story and the chronology of performances, Oundjian has started championing this new edition in Yale (the University orchestra, of which he is the MD), and is bringing it to Edinburgh, Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal with his other orchestra, the TSO.

His recording of the 4th (with the TSO) falls into the 'comfy' category, Ormandy-style. It's well upholstered but offers little in terms of edge and boldness. So, yes, it's a nice development for his brucknerian journey.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 07, 2018, 10:26:15 AM
(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F03%2FForbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_BRUCKNER_HONECK_PITTSBURG_REFERENCE_RECORDINGS_Classical-Critic-Jens-F-Laurson-960_.jpg%3Fwidth%3D960)

Classical CD Of The Week: A Gaggle Of Bruckner Fourths, Led By Manfred Honeck

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/07/classical-cd-of-the-week-a-gaggle-of-bruckner-fourths-led-by-manfred-honeck/#13189eee37da (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/07/classical-cd-of-the-week-a-gaggle-of-bruckner-fourths-led-by-manfred-honeck/#13189eee37da)

(Literally every click helps to convince Forbes not to dismiss classical music coverage)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 07, 2018, 10:31:17 PM

A Survey of Bruckner Cycles

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aRBqVEFm6bU/UPm2FsFICBI/AAAAAAAAF8M/EMaiDsgkkPE/s1600/Anton_Bruckner_II_laurson_600.jpg) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)

Updated the Survey of Bruckner Cycles with: Bolton, Nezet-Seguin, and Kurt Eichhorn:

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-survey-of-bruckner-cycles.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 08, 2018, 04:32:16 AM
The link to the Marcus Bosch set comes up as Sibelius symphonies. 

I understand that Bosch, according to some Amazon reviewers, takes at least several of the symphonies at a "Fast and Furious" pace in a tribute to Vin Diesel!   ???  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 08, 2018, 05:10:44 AM
Thanks for the link-correction! Fixed!

Yes, Bosch has a strange anti-following on Amazon... but he's not really all that wild. Or perhaps I've just missed those symphonies he DID take in such a manner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 08, 2018, 07:06:02 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 08, 2018, 05:10:44 AM
Thanks for the link-correction! Fixed!

Yes, Bosch has a strange anti-following on Amazon... but he's not really all that wild. Or perhaps I've just missed those symphonies he DID take in such a manner.

VI and IX had complaints about ridiculously fast tempos.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 08, 2018, 08:57:46 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 08, 2018, 07:06:02 AM
VI and IX had complaints about ridiculously fast tempos.

I can't comment on the Sixth, which I don't have -- except that my two favorite recordings (alongside Haitink/Dresden) are Celi/Munich and Norrington/Stuttgart, so speed can't be the issue, surely. (Also Klepmerer, I recall, is pretty quick here.)

In the Ninth, yes, he does take the first movement rather fast... but not by more than 10% compared to some of the fast(er) mainstream accounts. The Scherzo is middle-of-the-road, tempo-wise; (Dohnanyi/Cleveland, for example, is a bit faster.) And the third movement, too, is on the speedy side - granted - but not by much compared to, say, Jansons/RCO and Scherchen. In any case, I think that a fast slow movement is in part an outgrowth of performing the symphony with a fourth movement to come. (See discussion earlier in this thread.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 11, 2018, 06:05:18 PM
Here's a parlor game of sorts: Pick your Bruckner First Eleven. How does that work? Easy enough -

(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F03%2FBruckner-Forbes-PERFECT-First-Eleven_11_Classical-Critici_Jens-F-Laurson_SQUARE.jpg)
My Bruckner First Eleven: A Dream-Team Fantasy
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/11/my-bruckner-first-eleven-a-dream-team-fantasy/#4301d0dd6e0e (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/11/my-bruckner-first-eleven-a-dream-team-fantasy/#4301d0dd6e0e)

Every click helps to convince Forbes.com to continue bothering with classical music coverage. Even silly articles like these.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on March 11, 2018, 08:46:56 PM
Nice article, Jens. I clicked on your link about 20 times. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 12, 2018, 01:35:33 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 11, 2018, 08:46:56 PM
Nice article, Jens. I clicked on your link about 20 times. :)

Thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks.  ;)


(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F03%2FBRUCKNER_Forbes-First-Eleven_The-Bench_Nelsons_Ballot_Zweeden_Janowski_Jarvi_Classical-Critic_Jens-F-Laurson.jpg)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on March 12, 2018, 06:28:18 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 12, 2018, 01:35:33 AM
Thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks-thanks.  ;)

:P
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 12, 2018, 09:44:01 AM
I have never heard of Das Orchester der Klang-Verwaltung ! 8) 

http://www.klangverwaltung.de/kvo/index.html (http://www.klangverwaltung.de/kvo/index.html)

Scroll down to see the English translation!  Apparently a Bruckner Fourth performance is recommended!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 12, 2018, 04:38:30 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 12, 2018, 09:44:01 AM
I have never heard of Das Orchester der Klang-Verwaltung ! 8) 

http://www.klangverwaltung.de/kvo/index.html (http://www.klangverwaltung.de/kvo/index.html)

Scroll down to see the English translation!  Apparently a Bruckner Fourth performance is recommended!

A pick-up orchestra made up of soloists and top-notch orchestral musicians from the MPhil, BRSO, BStOp orchestra and elsewhere, united by their belief in Guttenberg as a conductor. I'm not surprised that a B4 with them is recommended. Their Matthew Passion and Magic Flute are awesome. Heard them at their festival last year: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/10/07/the-castle-is-alive-with-music-the-herrenchiemsee-festival/2/#218b5e192161 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/10/07/the-castle-is-alive-with-music-the-herrenchiemsee-festival/2/#218b5e192161)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 15, 2018, 06:43:02 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 12, 2018, 04:38:30 PM
A pick-up orchestra made up of soloists and top-notch orchestral musicians from the MPhil, BRSO, BStOp orchestra and elsewhere, united by their belief in Guttenberg as a conductor. I'm not surprised that a B4 with them is recommended. Their Matthew Passion and Magic Flute are awesome. Heard them at their festival last year: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/10/07/the-castle-is-alive-with-music-the-herrenchiemsee-festival/2/#218b5e192161 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/10/07/the-castle-is-alive-with-music-the-herrenchiemsee-festival/2/#218b5e192161)

Many thanks for the recommendation!

Bruckner and The Passage of Time

Yesterday my Seventh Graders in Latin finished translating the Te Deum text used by Bruckner for his work, and so we listened to the piece.

Some were prepared to put their heads on their desks, a position which - in my classroom - brings with it a future decorated with black crepe and the delicate aroma of formaldehyde.

So these particular ones propped up their massive craniums on their arms.  The others followed the text as the choir and soloists zipped through the opening stanzas.  Bruckner (for those who do not know the work) lingers over the last lines of the hymn, especially the last words Non confundar in aeternum. ("I will not be confused in eternity.")

Five seconds after the mighty conclusion, the bell rang.  There was some general astonishment:

"Is the period over?  Already?"
"Huh?  How long is that work?!"
"I don't believe it!"

(This has happened before with Bruckner's religious works in my classroom.)

I simply commented that great music often takes away one's sense of Time, and brings you into its own temporal universe. 0:)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on March 15, 2018, 06:45:53 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 15, 2018, 06:43:02 AM
Many thanks for the recommendation!

Bruckner and The Passage of Time

Yesterday my Seventh Graders in Latin finished translating the Te Deum text used by Bruckner for his work, and so we listened to the piece.

Some were prepared to put their heads on their desks, a position which - in my classroom - brings with it a future decorated with black crepe and the delicate aroma of formaldehyde.

So these particular ones propped up their massive craniums on their arms.  The others followed the text as the choir and soloists zipped through the opening stanzas.  Bruckner (for those who do not know the work) lingers over the last lines of the hymn, especially the last words Non confundar in aeternum. ("I will not be confused in eternity.")

Five seconds after the mighty conclusion, the bell rang.  There was some general astonishment:

"Is the period over?  Already?"
"Huh?  How long is that work?!"
"I don't believe it!"

(This has happened before with Bruckner's religious works in my classroom.)

I simply commented that great music often takes away one's sense of Time, and brings you into its own temporal universe. 0:)



Separately . . . I may just like that Cincinnati recording of the Sixth even better than HvK's . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 15, 2018, 10:08:56 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 15, 2018, 06:45:53 AM
Separately . . . I may just like that Cincinnati recording of the Sixth even better than HvK's . . . .

I suppose you are referring to the Lopez-Cobos ? It has an honesty that disarms criticism. I wouldn't put it in the top 5 (I like a certain level of gruffness in the 6th), but certainly in the top 10. An apollonian 6th...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 15, 2018, 03:53:29 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 15, 2018, 06:45:53 AM
Separately . . . I may just like that Cincinnati recording of the Sixth even better than HvK's . . . .

Quote from: André on March 15, 2018, 10:08:56 AM
I suppose you are referring to the Lopez-Cobos ? It has an honesty that disarms criticism. I wouldn't put it in the top 5 (I like a certain level of gruffness in the 6th), but certainly in the top 10. An apollonian 6th...

High praise and an excellent description:

[asin]B000003CXD[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 19, 2018, 10:16:06 AM
Bruckner Angelic 11

A Proposal. (Click to enlarge)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYqulq0XUAAf9Nj.jpg:large) (https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/975784917060718592)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Seventh Symphony Reminiscences
Post by: Cato on May 02, 2018, 02:48:47 PM
Continuing my little personal series about the first time I heard each symphony....

Long-time members may recall my story about coming across the score - imported from Austria and edited by Leopold Nowak - in the public library.  While I was reading through it, I became ever more enthusiastic about the work!

This was the first time I had ever heard of Bruckner, and so I began to look for a biography, but at the time the library had none.  An encyclopedia entry had to suffice.

Not long after that experience, the library purchased the DGG Bruckner Seventh Symphony  with  0:) Eugen Jochum  0:) conducting: 2 LP's with Psalm 150 filling out Side 4.

I may have been the first one to check the record out, for it was in pristine condition.  Now, keep in mind that my record player dated from the early 1950's, and had no stereo capacity.  It would be a few years before my family could invest in a stereo player (a Magnavox, the woofers and tweeters were about 3 inches wide at the most!).

In spite of that, I was hooked on every note!  The opening theme, over 20 bars long, the climaxes, the crescendos toward the climaxes, the calm sections, everything sounded amazing!  I believe the year was 1964 or '65.

After that, I was "hooked on Bruckner," and hooked on Jochum!   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2018, 03:04:59 AM
Magnavox:  there is a word I have not heard (or read) in many a day . . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 03, 2018, 04:17:29 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 03, 2018, 03:04:59 AM
Magnavoxthere is a word I have not heard (or read) in many a day . . . .

"Great voice" in Latin!  Apparently the name is still alive, now owned by Philips.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Seventh Symphony Reminiscences
Post by: Cato on May 03, 2018, 03:25:39 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 02, 2018, 02:48:47 PM
Continuing my little personal series about the first time I heard each symphony....

Long-time members may recall my story about coming across the score - imported from Austria and edited by Leopold Nowak - in the public library.  While I was reading through it, I became ever more enthusiastic about the work!

This was the first time I had ever heard of Bruckner, and so I began to look for a biography, but at the time the library had none.  An encyclopedia entry had to suffice.

Not long after that experience, the library purchased the DGG Bruckner Seventh Symphony  with  0:) Eugen Jochum  0:) conducting: 2 LP's with Psalm 150 filling out Side 4.

I may have been the first one to check the record out, for it was in pristine condition.  Now, keep in mind that my record player dated from the early 1950's, and had no stereo capacity.  It would be a few years before my family could invest in a stereo player (a Magnavox, the woofers and tweeters were about 3 inches wide at the most!).

In spite of that, I was hooked on every note!  The opening theme, over 20 bars long, the climaxes, the crescendos toward the climaxes, the calm sections, everything sounded amazing!  I believe the year was 1964 or '65.

After that, I was "hooked on Bruckner," and hooked on Jochum!   0:)

To continue with some specifics about my first impressions:

I recall being intrigued by the upward thrust of the music at the beginning, and not just with the opening theme, e.g. the first great crescendo beginning at bar 106 ff. (Nowak score) uses a constantly upward struggling motif, and then the angular, and  the rather wild dancing motif at bar 123ff. in the strings dances its way skyward by bar 144.  But then we have the main theme inverted and the trend is downward, but only a trend, since certain instruments (e.g. the flute at bar 210) still want to defy gravity.

This idea of inverting the main theme was new to me at the time, and I recall resisting the notion for some reason, but I began to hear a certain logic to this mirroring, as soon as bars 290-302 hit, which I thought were just magnificent: yet even more magnificent was everything in Letter W (bars 391-402), right before the coda.

I also learned that the figurations in the violins are not just there to move things harmonically, but also have a motivic function, especially at the beginning (bar 413 ff.).



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Seventh Symphony Reminiscences
Post by: Cato on May 03, 2018, 04:07:23 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 03, 2018, 03:25:39 PM
To continue with some specifics about my first impressions:

I recall being intrigued by the upward thrust of the music at the beginning, and not just with the opening theme, e.g. the first great crescendo beginning at bar 106 ff. (Nowak score) uses a constantly upward struggling motif, and then the angular, and  the rather wild dancing motif at bar 123ff. in the strings dances its way skyward by bar 144.  But then we have the main theme inverted and the trend is downward, but only a trend, since certain instruments (e.g. the flute at bar 210) still want to defy gravity.

This idea of inverting the main theme was new to me at the time, and I recall resisting the notion for some reason, but I began to hear a certain logic to this mirroring, as soon as bars 290-302 hit, which I thought were just magnificent: yet even more magnificent was everything in Letter W (bars 391-402), right before the coda.

I also learned that the figurations in the violins are not just there to move things harmonically, but also have a motivic function, especially at the beginning (bar 413 ff.).

I have a little more time than I thought would have, so I will make a few comments about my memories of the Adagio.

I knew nothing of any connection between the movement and Wagner's death, but that it was a lamentation was obvious even to my immature ears.

Those ears did understand a curious connection between the main theme of Movement I and the secondary theme in Letter D (bars 37 ff.).  Exactly what that connection might have been...?  Perhaps a counterbalance to the Gravitas of the opening bars.

However, that some sort of soulful conflict was happening became obvious in the famous heart of the movement, the huge crescendo at Letter S (bar 157 ff.), where there is a kind of trepidation, yet this trepidation, this feeling of something ominous ahead, is outweighed by a desire to continue forward and upward.  The famous chorale at Letter X (bar 184 ff.): yes, it was an amazing experience to hear the deep brass mourning and then the 4 horns crying forth: the simplicity of the section belied its power.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Seventh Symphony Reminiscences
Post by: Cato on May 06, 2018, 07:24:05 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 03, 2018, 04:07:23 PM
I have a little more time than I thought would have, so I will make a few comments about my memories of the Adagio.

I knew nothing of any connection between the movement and Wagner's death, but that it was a lamentation was obvious even to my immature ears.

Those ears did understand a curious connection between the main theme of Movement I and the secondary theme in Letter D (bars 37 ff.).  Exactly what that connection might have been...?  Perhaps a counterbalance to the Gravitas of the opening bars.

However, that some sort of soulful conflict was happening became obvious in the famous heart of the movement, the huge crescendo at Letter S (bar 157 ff.), where there is a kind of trepidation, yet this trepidation, this feeling of something ominous ahead, is outweighed by a desire to continue forward and upward.  The famous chorale at Letter X (bar 184 ff.): yes, it was an amazing experience to hear the deep brass mourning and then the 4 horns crying forth: the simplicity of the section belied its power.

To continue my memories of hearing the symphony for the first time:

The Scherzo was just great, prancing fun, but the Trio had something that puzzled me.  for the main theme, still in 3/4 time, uses a "2 against 3" indication in bars 11 and 13 and elsewhere, rather than just two dotted quarter-notes.  The only thing I could think of was that some sort of rubato was thereby indicated, instead of a strict division of the 3/4 time into halves.

And my main memory of the Finale was that it constantly seemed on the verge of ending!  Even the opening pages sounded like: "Okay, here's the Coda!"  Certainly many other sections intervened to allay that feeling, but never for very long!   $:)   0:)   I also found the final bar somewhat curious, but later discovered it was typical of Bruckner just to end the symphony on one simple chord (the Fifth would be an example where a series of emphatic chords bring things to an end).  Later I wondered if that tendency came from an organ technique of using the deepest note of the pedal to put an emphatic end to the work.

After that, I had to listen to ALL of the symphonies, and that followed as quickly as possible, along with the purchase of ALL the Nowak scores!   0:)  They have yellowed slightly in the last 50+ years, but are still in good shape.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Seventh Symphony Reminiscences
Post by: Cato on May 08, 2018, 05:50:49 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 06, 2018, 07:24:05 AM
To continue my memories of hearing the symphony for the first time:

The Scherzo was just great, prancing fun, but the Trio had something that puzzled me.  for the main theme, still in 3/4 time, uses a "2 against 3" indication in bars 11 and 13 and elsewhere, rather than just two dotted quarter-notes.  The only thing I could think of was that some sort of rubato was thereby indicated, instead of a strict division of the 3/4 time into halves.

And my main memory of the Finale was that it constantly seemed on the verge of ending!  Even the opening pages sounded like: "Okay, here's the Coda!"  Certainly many other sections intervened to allay that feeling, but never for very long!   $:)   0:)   I also found the final bar somewhat curious, but later discovered it was typical of Bruckner just to end the symphony on one simple chord (the Fifth would be an example where a series of emphatic chords bring things to an end).  Later I wondered if that tendency came from an organ technique of using the deepest note of the pedal to put an emphatic end to the work.

After that, I had to listen to ALL of the symphonies, and that followed as quickly as possible, along with the purchase of ALL the Nowak scores!   0:)  They have yellowed slightly in the last 50+ years, but are still in good shape.


This morning I recalled a 1960's-era comment made by a high-school classmate who was also a Bruckner enthusiast back then (yes, while others were grooving to The Electric Prunes (q.v.*) we were grooving to Bruckner!  8) ). after he had heard the Eighth Symphony, in particular the Scherzo.

He had a habit of talking with his hands (even though he was not of Italian heritage).  After he had heard the Eighth Symphony, in particular the Scherzo, he saw me one day and, while shaking his hands, he said:

"The Eighth Symphony's Scherzo!  Man!  He must've composed that after going to another planet!"  0:)


*http://www.electricprunes.com/ (http://www.electricprunes.com/))
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on May 08, 2018, 05:58:33 AM
Were they not The Electric Plums at the beginning? . . .
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 08, 2018, 06:24:05 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 08, 2018, 05:58:33 AM
Were they not The Electric Plums at the beginning? . . .

Well, from their music, I think they skipped that phase!  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Seventh Symphony Reminiscences
Post by: Daverz on May 08, 2018, 02:20:09 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 02, 2018, 02:48:47 PM
Not long after that experience, the library purchased the DGG Bruckner Seventh Symphony  with  0:) Eugen Jochum  0:) conducting: 2 LP's with Psalm 150 filling out Side 4.

My first encounter with 7 was the Rosbaud on a single Vox Turnabout Lp. 

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51PiAE-dGiL.jpg)

As you can imagine, cramming the symphony on to one Lp results in compromised sound, but it was still captivating.  You can get much better sounding CD transfers now:

[asin] B001E1DHFO[/asin]

Oddly, the 7 in the recent SWR Classics Rosbaud Bruckner box is mono.  Not sure what the story is there.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Seventh Symphony Reminiscences
Post by: Cato on May 08, 2018, 03:41:26 PM
Quote from: Daverz on May 08, 2018, 02:20:09 PM
My first encounter with 7 was the Rosbaud on a single Vox Turnabout Lp. 

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51PiAE-dGiL.jpg)

As you can imagine, cramming the symphony on to one Lp results in compromised sound, but it was still captivating.  You can get much better sounding CD transfers now:

[asin] B001E1DHFO[/asin]

Oddly, the 7 in the recent SWR Classics Rosbaud Bruckner box is mono.  Not sure what the story is there.

The Anton Bruckner website offers an online download of Rosbaud conducting the SWF Orchestra: see how the recording has been issued either in mistaken - or fraudulent - versions of stereo, including Dolby SurroundSound!  ???

https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/november14/ (https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/november14/)

On Amazon the performance has 5 star reviews!

Hans Rosbaud!  Yes, he was one of the great conductors from the good ol' days!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Seventh Symphony Reminiscences
Post by: Daverz on May 08, 2018, 03:50:37 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 08, 2018, 03:41:26 PM
The Anton Bruckner website offers an online download of Rosbaud conducting the SWF Orchestra: see how the recording has been issued either in mistaken - or fraudulent - versions of stereo, including Dolby SurroundSound!  ???

https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/november14/ (https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/november14/)

On Amazon the performance has 5 star reviews!

Hans Rosbaud!  Yes, he was one of the great conductors from the good ol' days!

I'll check it out.  The Zyx is not just stereo, but fine, spacious stereo.  It does seem odd considering the cheap label.

As for the performance, Rosbaud must have been allowed a lot of rehearsal time.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Seventh Symphony Reminiscences
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 08, 2018, 09:54:35 PM
Quote from: Daverz on May 08, 2018, 02:20:09 PM
My first encounter with 7 was the Rosbaud on a single Vox Turnabout Lp. 

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51PiAE-dGiL.jpg)


Oddly, the 7 in the recent SWR Classics Rosbaud Bruckner box is mono.  Not sure what the story is there.

The story will be told in my review of it; I expect it up on ClassicsToday any time.
Or, to give it away: SWR licensed the stereo take but archived it in mono. (No more was needed for radio broadcasts at the time.)
Although they could have gotten their hands on the stereo take, the producers decided to issue the box all from the archival tape, and consequently all in mono, to keep a coherent SQ profile among the performances in the box.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Draško on May 09, 2018, 01:52:39 AM
Can't recall first time I heard Bruckner 7th, but the first one I owned (on CD) was pretty obscure one: Guschlbauer on Erato. Haven't listened to that one in years, possibly a decade.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519f3Hzj6jL.jpg)

My CD is even autographed, when ages ago Guschlbauer conducted Bruckner's Die Nullte here. The only time I heard that symphony live.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 09, 2018, 03:35:12 AM
Quote from: Draško on May 09, 2018, 01:52:39 AM
Can't recall first time I heard Bruckner 7th, but the first one I owned (on CD) was pretty obscure one: Guschlbauer on Erato. Haven't listened to that one in years, possibly a decade.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519f3Hzj6jL.jpg)

My CD is even autographed, when ages ago Guschlbauer conducted Bruckner's Die Nullte here. The only time I heard that symphony live.

I heard Die Nullte live also, when the Toledo Symphony played it in the cathedral there: Stefan Sanderling obviously thought the work is not the "red-headed step-child,"  ;) but a major member of the family, and treated it as such: the Andante was in particular most outstanding.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 09, 2018, 10:49:20 AM
My first ever Bruckner 7 was this one:

(http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/7/71980/dsc08733-h.jpg)

Carl Schuricht with the Hague Philharmonic. An extroverted, bluff account that favored rythmic sharpness, bold contrasts and made no concessions to orchestral suavity à la Giulini or Karajan. I still find it excellent, a musical shot in the arm.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on May 09, 2018, 10:58:24 AM
Quote from: André on May 09, 2018, 10:49:20 AM
My first ever Bruckner 7 was this one ....

Mine must have been Giulini, and courtesy of a tip from Chamber Nut Ray:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71aaHp%2BEYBL._SL1050_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 09, 2018, 11:00:16 AM
I think this Giulini disc is my favourite 7th - in a tie with a couple others, of course  :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 11, 2018, 04:21:33 PM
Quote from: André on May 09, 2018, 10:49:20 AM
My first ever Bruckner 7 was this one:

(http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/7/71980/dsc08733-h.jpg)

Carl Schuricht with the Hague Philharmonic. An extroverted, bluff account that favored rythmic sharpness, bold contrasts and made no concessions to orchestral suavity à la Giulini or Karajan. I still find it excellent, a musical shot in the arm.

Yes, right on target!  I remember Carl Schuricht's approach to Bruckner being described as "straight-forward," and "no frills."  I also remember listening to that record, along with Schuricht's powerful reading of the Ninth Symphony on Angel/Serpahim.  He was one of the greats!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on May 11, 2018, 05:16:39 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 11, 2018, 04:21:33 PM
Yes, right on target!  I remember Carl Schuricht's approach to Bruckner being described as "straight-forward," and "no frills."  I also remember listening to that record, along with Schuricht's powerful reading of the Ninth Symphony on Angel/Serpahim.  He was one of the greats!

According to the Bruckner discography, Denon released this on CD in Japan:

https://www.abruckner.com/recordings/Hague_Philharmonic_Orchestra

Also, Scribendum, but that's out of print.  Here's one of the Denon releases:

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/NEODAI-12153?s_ssid=e4149d5af6426e23b

I found a couple copies of this on Tidal that are obviously transferred from Lp, but I found them unpleasantly processed sounding after a while.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 11, 2018, 06:08:02 PM
The sound on that Schuricht disc is as unvarnished as the interpretation, that's true  :D , but it's not bad at all: big, deep, blunt. I like it as it is, it's of a piece with the music-making.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on May 11, 2018, 06:48:40 PM
Quote from: André on May 11, 2018, 06:08:02 PM
The sound on that Schuricht disc is as unvarnished as the interpretation, that's true  :D , but it's not bad at all: big, deep, blunt. I like it as it is, it's of a piece with the music-making.

To clarify, all I've only heard the anonymous LP transfers on Tidal, not the Denon CDs, which I expect are legitimately licensed.  The basic quality seems promising, though the noise reduction used was obvious and unpleasant.  I also have the Nonesuch Lp, but it's pretty dusty, and my cleaning machine is stacked with other junk, which gives you an idea of how often I use it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 11, 2018, 11:42:02 PM
There's said review of Rosbaud.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dc8HTuKXkAAQ16n.jpg)

Latest on #ClassicsToday: Terrific Bruckner from the @SWRClassic archives with #HansRosbaud!

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/rosbaud-from-the-archives-a-collectors-near-complete-bruckner-cycle/ ... (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/rosbaud-from-the-archives-a-collectors-near-complete-bruckner-cycle/)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 12, 2018, 02:21:28 PM
I can't read the review, but the Rosbaud a particularly good account of the 7th. I actually don't think I've ever heard a performance of the 7th that leaves out the triangle and cymbals in the climax of the slow movement. But now that I have heard it without the percussion I think it has spoiled the other accounts for me, they sound a bit vulgar now!

Cato reminiscing about his first encounter with the 7th leads me to narrate how I first encountered it. I was in town (Cambridge UK) during school holidays in the early 1980s and I had my first job (can't even remember what it was, a bookshop I think) and it was the first week, before I got paid. On the way home I dropped into Heffers (the bookshop) which had a record department in the basement. I had heard about Bruckner, but had never listened to any of his works. After a few minutes browsing I had two LPs in my hand: Bruckner's 7th conducted by Haitink and Brahms' 4th. I knew I didn't have much money and scraping all the change in my pockets together I found that after taking away 12p or whatever I needed for the bus fare home I had £3.49 which was exactly the cost of the Bruckner (whereas the Brahms was £3.50!). So for the want of a penny I went with Bruckner, was suitably blown away, and as soon as I started getting paid got other Bruckner LPs. As for Brahms.... never have been a Brahms fan.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2018, 02:54:30 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 11, 2018, 11:42:02 PM
There's said review of Rosbaud.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dc8HTuKXkAAQ16n.jpg)

Latest on #ClassicsToday: Terrific Bruckner from the @SWRClassic archives with #HansRosbaud!

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/rosbaud-from-the-archives-a-collectors-near-complete-bruckner-cycle/ ... (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/rosbaud-from-the-archives-a-collectors-near-complete-bruckner-cycle/)

:o :o :o  ...you're reviewing for ClassicToday now! Wow...I did not see that coming. I will have to renew my Insider subscription.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 12, 2018, 03:13:54 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2018, 02:54:30 PM
:o :o :o  ...you're reviewing for ClassicToday now! Wow...I did not see that coming. I will have to renew my Insider subscription.

Sarge

;D Now that's music to my ears!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on May 21, 2018, 07:22:15 PM
What's the general verdict on Schaller's performances in this compilation?

[asin] B077TCZHD8[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 22, 2018, 06:18:27 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 21, 2018, 07:22:15 PM
What's the general verdict on Schaffller's performances in this compilation?

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/%20B077TCZHD8.01.L.jpg)
Bruckner, Schaller
Profil
(http://a-fwd.to/28GN5Ht)

I think these are ABSOLUTELY worth hearing.

The orchestra is basically a pick-up band consisting of the very much Bruckner-experienced professional Munich orchestras. The only thing they lack is that ultra-coherence that some Karajan recordings of Bruckner feature.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on May 22, 2018, 09:05:03 AM
The conductor seems to be channeling the composer more than a little ...

Quote
[asin] B077TCZHD8[/asin]   (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Bruckner_Anton_Postcard-1910.jpg/200px-Bruckner_Anton_Postcard-1910.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on May 22, 2018, 09:52:59 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 22, 2018, 06:18:27 AM
I think these are ABSOLUTELY worth hearing.

The orchestra is basically a pick-up band consisting of the very much Bruckner-experienced professional Munich orchestras. The only thing they lack is that ultra-coherence that some Karajan recordings of Bruckner feature.

Ooops, a conductor typo.  ::)    Thanks for your feedback in regards to Bruckner.  So less disciplined but still excellent performances? I was just reading the review on MusicWeb. "Worth hearing and buying whether you're a Bruckner tyro or tyrannosaurus."
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Feb/Bruckner_sys_PH17024.htm

David Hurwitz thinks that Schaller has caught Bruckneritus!  ???  "Gerd Schaller is a sensitive and idiomatic Bruckner conductor, but he has caught Bruckneritus, the uncontrollable urge to perform a stupid new edition of one of the major symphonies."
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/another-bastard-bruckner-edition-time-8th/

Btw I keep checking out your surveys of different cycles (Bruckner, Sibelius, Beethoven etc). An excellent resource!!!!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 22, 2018, 01:43:30 PM
Hurwitz must have undergone a root canal or suffered from bad hemorrhoïds. On top of this Bruckner review, he has penned two « CD from Hell » reviews this week ! That's a lot of bile on one page  ::)

Jens, find him a doctor !  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 22, 2018, 03:00:05 PM
Quote from: André on May 22, 2018, 01:43:30 PM
Hurwitz must have undergone a root canal or suffered from bad hemorrhoïds. On top of this Bruckner review, he has penned two « CD from Hell » reviews this week ! That's a lot of bile on one page  ::)

Jens, find him a doctor !  ;D

I'm contractually obliged to agree with everything he says!  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 22, 2018, 03:00:39 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 22, 2018, 03:00:05 PM
I'm contractually obliged to agree with everything he says!  ;D

P.S. The Gatti is my favorite La Mer recording of the last 20 years.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 22, 2018, 11:16:26 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 22, 2018, 03:00:39 PM
P.S. The Gatti is my favorite La Mer recording of the last 20 years.

Good to know  :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on May 23, 2018, 02:54:39 AM
I see that there's a comparatively inexpensive set of Hans Rosbaud conducting symphonies 2-9.
Any views on Rosbaud's performances?
[asin]B07556L2TN[/asin]
I seem to recall having a rather good LP of him conducting Symphony 7 on Vox/Turnabout in my youth.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 23, 2018, 02:59:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 23, 2018, 02:54:39 AM
I see that there's a comparatively inexpensive set of Hans Rosbaud conducting symphonies 2-9.
Any views on Rosbaud's performances?
[asin]B07556L2TN[/asin]
I seem to recall having a rather good LP of him conducting Symphony 7 on Vox/Turnabout in my youth.

Sure:

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 11, 2018, 11:42:02 PM
There's said review of Rosbaud.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dc8HTuKXkAAQ16n.jpg)

Latest on #ClassicsToday: Terrific Bruckner from the @SWRClassic archives with #HansRosbaud!

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/rosbaud-from-the-archives-a-collectors-near-complete-bruckner-cycle/ ... (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/rosbaud-from-the-archives-a-collectors-near-complete-bruckner-cycle/)

Super-no-nonsense performances. 4th 7th and 9th particularly worth hearing. Sound good mono. Sometimes a little slow for how little happens.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on May 23, 2018, 03:33:44 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 23, 2018, 02:59:47 AM
Sure:

Super-no-nonsense performances. 4th 7th and 9th particularly worth hearing. Sound good mono. Sometimes a little slow for how little happens.

Thank you very much. Unfortunately I'm not a subscriber so can't access that particular review. However, I did just find one on Musicweb which was generally positive, although less impressed by symphonies 8 and 9 (my two favourites). Still, I may still be unable to resist this temptation. Apparently Rosbaud was too ill to record Symphony 1.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on May 23, 2018, 10:46:34 AM
As a resource:
Rosbaud review: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Feb/Bruckner_sys_SWR19043CD.htm
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on May 23, 2018, 11:51:22 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 23, 2018, 10:46:34 AM
As a resource:
Rosbaud review: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Feb/Bruckner_sys_SWR19043CD.htm

Many thanks. That's the one I saw. Am still tempted by the set.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on May 23, 2018, 12:00:37 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 23, 2018, 11:51:22 AM
Many thanks. That's the one I saw. Am still tempted by the set.

It looks intriguing. Can one have too many Bruckner experiences? Nah!   >:D   I recently ordered a mega set of Wand's recordings (which includes a huge dosage of Bruckner) so I think I will muse over them before I even think about Rosbaud's performances. It will definitely take me a while. Still, tempting......
The Wand recordings (and deal) are still available at https://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B06XPYVS8P/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

See: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4431.msg1150960.html#msg1150960

(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/images/records/sony88985435852.jpg?1495618541)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on May 23, 2018, 12:51:47 PM
I was at Wand's last concert in the UK, at the Albert Hall; Bruckner's 9th Symphony. I was with my brother who is more of a Bruckner fanatic than myself (he took his late wife on a 'Pilgerfahrt' (Pilgrimage) to Austria to see all the sites associated with his hero) - anyway, my brother thought it the greatest performance he had ever heard of Bruckner's 9th Symphony.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on May 23, 2018, 01:49:45 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 23, 2018, 12:51:47 PM
I was at Wand's last concert in the UK, at the Albert Hall; Bruckner's 9th Symphony. I was with my brother who is more of a Bruckner fanatic than myself (he took his late wife on a 'Pilgerfahrt' (Pilgrimage) to Austria to see all the sites associated with his hero) - anyway, my brother thought it the greatest performance he had ever herd of Bruckner's 9th Symphony.


Such a treat! A lifetime experience!
*jealous*
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on May 23, 2018, 02:26:33 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 23, 2018, 01:49:45 PM

Such a treat! A lifetime experience!
*jealous*

Jealous of the 'Pilgerfahrt' or the concert, or both?  8)

I'm also jealous of the Bruckner pilgrimage. My brother sent me a postcard of the school room which was Bruckner's birthplace I think.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Moonfish on May 23, 2018, 02:32:05 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 23, 2018, 02:26:33 PM
Jealous of the 'Pilgerfahrt' or the concert, or both?  8)

I'm also jealous of the Bruckner pilgrimage. My brother sent me a postcard of the school room which was Bruckner's birthplace I think.

Both!  0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on May 24, 2018, 02:09:44 AM
Pilgerfahrt postcard:

(https://www.alpharail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/vertical-railings-resized.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 29, 2018, 06:41:57 AM
i am pretty stunned by the number of complete sets that have cropped up the last few years. Three on a small label like Oehm alone, just boggles the imagination.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 11, 2018, 08:24:06 AM
Continuing my reminiscences of hearing the Bruckner symphonies for the first time: today it is the mighty Eighth Symphony.

I must have been around 14 or 15 years of age, and had already heard the Seventh, Fourth, and First symphonies, all conducted by Eugen Jochum on DGG.  The Ninth I had also heard via Carl Schuricht's recording on Angel/Seraphim.

So, despite that background, when I heard Jochum's performance of the (Nowak version) of the Eighth Symphony, I was amazed by nearly everything!  The three themes of the opening sounding enigmatic, yet familiar, like a friend from earlier days who seems pretty much the same...but to whom something disturbing had happened.  This unease is revealed, of course, in the tragic final bars.  The Scherzo struck me also as odd, if not downright weird.  (After I had loaned my recording to a friend, he said it sounded as if Bruckner had visited another planet!  The Adagio seemed to echo the final bars of the first movement in its portentous drama, and also sounded like a logical development from all the previous slow movements I had heard.  The Finale's opening I loved, astonished by the energy and drive in the music.  The next section sounded curious with many lines everywhere, yet creating unity.  And after much hin und her one arrives at that incredible combination of all the main themes in the last two pages!  I was - again - amazed.

Not long afterward, I came across Eduard Hanslick's review of the Eighth Symphony.  He did not like it at all, since he was a devotee of Brahms.  Much of his review was spent in mocking the "programme" which (I suppose) was written by Josef Schalk.

See:

https://theoryofmusic.wordpress.com/2009/10/11/bruckners-symphony-no-8-reviewed-by-eduard-hanslick-1892/ (https://theoryofmusic.wordpress.com/2009/10/11/bruckners-symphony-no-8-reviewed-by-eduard-hanslick-1892/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: relm1 on June 12, 2018, 05:57:16 AM
I really love the Bruckner 4th recording from 1973 by Daniel Barenboim and the CSO.  Really intense read that one.  It made me print out the part and play the bass trombone part much to neighbors frustration since everything there is fff!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 12, 2018, 06:16:59 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 12, 2018, 05:57:16 AM
I really love the Bruckner 4th recording from 1973 by Daniel Barenboim and the CSO.  Really intense read that one.  It made me print out the part and play the bass trombone part much to neighbors frustration since everything there is fff!

Great!  Spreading the Good News of Bruckner can be your good deed for the day!   ;)


Quote from: Cato on June 11, 2018, 08:24:06 AM
Continuing my reminiscences of hearing the Bruckner symphonies for the first time: today it is the mighty Eighth Symphony.

I must have been around 14 or 15 years of age, and had already heard the Seventh, Fourth, and First symphonies, all conducted by Eugen Jochum on DGG.  The Ninth I had also heard via Carl Schuricht's recording on Angel/Seraphim.

So, despite that background, when I heard Jochum's performance of the (Nowak version) of the Eighth Symphony, I was amazed by nearly everything!  The three themes of the opening sounding enigmatic, yet familiar, like a friend from earlier days who seems pretty much the same...but to whom something disturbing had happened.  This unease is revealed, of course, in the tragic final bars.  The Scherzo struck me also as odd, if not downright weird.  (After I had loaned my recording to a friend, he said it sounded as if Bruckner had visited another planet!  The Adagio seemed to echo the final bars of the first movement in its portentous drama, and also sounded like a logical development from all the previous slow movements I had heard.  The Finale's opening I loved, astonished by the energy and drive in the music.  The next section sounded curious with many lines everywhere, yet creating unity.  And after much hin und her one arrives at that incredible combination of all the main themes in the last two pages!  I was - again - amazed.

Not long afterward, I came across Eduard Hanslick's review of the Eighth Symphony.  He did not like it at all, since he was a devotee of Brahms.  Much of his review was spent in mocking the "programme" which (I suppose) was written by Josef Schalk.

See:

https://theoryofmusic.wordpress.com/2009/10/11/bruckners-symphony-no-8-reviewed-by-eduard-hanslick-1892/ (https://theoryofmusic.wordpress.com/2009/10/11/bruckners-symphony-no-8-reviewed-by-eduard-hanslick-1892/)

And even though response has been nil to slight (thanks to all , who have responded), I will end my little series of essays with the Ninth Symphony.  (When I set out to do something, I always finish it, no matter what!  $:)  )

It was a Christmas present!  I had asked (of course!) for the Eugen Jochum DGG recording, but my mother could not find it.  Instead, Santa Claus brought me the Carl Schuricht performance on Angel/Seraphim.  After experiencing the Seventh Symphony, I had read about how great the Ninth Symphony was in a biography, and had seen parts of the score in the book, which really got my interest.   I believe it was the second symphony by  Bruckner I had heard (maybe the third: I might have heard the Fourth before the Ninth.)

Keep in mind that I only had an Admiral monaural record player from the early 1950's!  But in spite of that, the performance sounded riveting all the way through.  I recall being shocked and enthused by the dire sound of the opening, along with the massive statement of the main theme later.  The second and third themes I found deliciously portentous, and therefore fitting for the atmosphere of the movement.  The Scherzo sounded very 20th-century to me, like something by Bartok!  And then the Adagio of all Adagios!  Emotionally stirring, even - or especially - to a young (13) teenager.

Later in high school, my parents bought a small Motorola stereo, and I was able to crank things up!   8)

And the work has never grown stale after 50+ years!  And...yes, I do like the 4-movement version by the quartet of musicologists (Simon Rattle and the Berlin Philharmonic).

So, thanks for reading!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 12, 2018, 06:39:27 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 12, 2018, 05:57:16 AM
I really love the Bruckner 4th recording from 1973 by Daniel Barenboim and the CSO.  Really intense read that one.  It made me print out the part and play the bass trombone part much to neighbors frustration since everything there is fff!

Absolutely. :-)

I think it's not quite Brucknerian, but it damned-well is glorious: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/05/dip-your-ears-no-60.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/05/dip-your-ears-no-60.html)

"It is brash, with its fanfare-touting brass, it is a thrill, it is cheap (metaphorically and literally) and sacrifices Brucknerian spirit for orchestral splendor. The effect is calculated but also  undeniable."
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 12, 2018, 08:26:12 AM
Nice series of messages Cato ! I admire your memory, mine is not as good  :D

IIRC my first Bruckner recordings were the 9th by Mehta, which made an indelible impression, followed by the 4th under Barenboim (in Chicago), which was a brand new issue at the time.

After that I'm not quite sure, but the 3rd and 5th under Jochum (DGG), Klemperer's 5th and Keilberth's 6th must not have been far behind. Other old memories: the 7th under Schuricht (in The Hague), the 1st with Haitink and the 8th with Böhm.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 12, 2018, 09:28:24 AM
Quote from: André on June 12, 2018, 08:26:12 AM
Nice series of messages Cato ! I admire your memory, mine is not as good  :D

IIRC my first Bruckner recordings were the 9th by Mehta, which made an indelible impression, followed by the 4th under Barenboim (in Chicago), which was a brand new issue at the time.

After that I'm not quite sure, but the 3rd and 5th under Jochum (DGG), Klemperer's 5th and Keilberth's 6th must not have been far behind. Other old memories: the 7th under Schuricht (in The Hague), the 1st with Haitink and the 8th with Böhm.

Thanks for the comment, André !  That Jochum Fifth has the curious Finale where the brakes are slammed on for the peroration, as if Celibidache had suddenly appeared, pushed Saint Eugen off the podium, and assumed control!   8)

And Joseph Keilberth!  Two of his opera recordings are classics!  Der Freischuetz and Cardillac !

[asin] B004LUNZ6Q[/asin]

[asin]B00000E4S1[/asin]

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mahlerian on June 12, 2018, 01:50:41 PM
Quote from: Cato on June 12, 2018, 06:16:59 AMThe Scherzo sounded very 20th-century to me, like something by Bartok!

When I think of the half-diminished seventh chord, that opening is one of the first things to come to mind.  Then there's the abrupt shift to the F# major trio, and the bizarre shifts within that trio, and it goes on...

Quote from: Cato on June 12, 2018, 06:16:59 AMSo, thanks for reading!

Thanks for sharing!  I didn't encounter Bruckner (or Mahler) until I was 18 or so...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 12, 2018, 04:41:31 PM
Listening right now to this enticing compendium of Bruckner rarities:

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/741/MI0003741438.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

The works for orchestra have been arranged for chamber ensemble. The effect is not unlike a cross between the string quintet and the standard Bruckner orchestra. Very interesting. Recommended for the confirmed brucknerian.

Front cover:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41MnXnkg6%2BL.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 13, 2018, 03:47:02 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 12, 2018, 01:50:41 PM

Thanks for sharing!  I didn't encounter Bruckner (or Mahler) until I was 18 or so...


In late grade school Bruckner led me to Mahler, who led me to Schoenberg and beyond!  8)

Classic cartoons led me very early to Franz Liszt and Franz von Suppe and of course to good ol' Dick Wagner !   8)  A 1950's children's television show which used The Moldau led me to Smetana, who led me to DvorakCharles Schulz and his character Schroeder in Peanuts of course revealed Beethoven who led me to Schubert and Schumann!

The Dayton Public Library had a marvelous collection of classical music and scores, so sometimes simple browsing through the "New Records" bin and wondering "What will this sound like?" opened up all kinds of new roads!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 13, 2018, 06:59:39 AM
Quote from: Cato on June 11, 2018, 08:24:06 AM
Continuing my reminiscences of hearing the Bruckner symphonies for the first time: today it is the mighty Eighth Symphony.

I must have been around 14 or 15 years of age, and had already heard the Seventh, Fourth, and First symphonies, all conducted by Eugen Jochum on DGG.  The Ninth I had also heard via Carl Schuricht's recording on Angel/Seraphim.

So, despite that background, when I heard Jochum's performance of the (Nowak version) of the Eighth Symphony, I was amazed by nearly everything!  The three themes of the opening sounding enigmatic, yet familiar, like a friend from earlier days who seems pretty much the same...but to whom something disturbing had happened.  This unease is revealed, of course, in the tragic final bars.  The Scherzo struck me also as odd, if not downright weird.  (After I had loaned my recording to a friend, he said it sounded as if Bruckner had visited another planet!  The Adagio seemed to echo the final bars of the first movement in its portentous drama, and also sounded like a logical development from all the previous slow movements I had heard.  The Finale's opening I loved, astonished by the energy and drive in the music.  The next section sounded curious with many lines everywhere, yet creating unity.  And after much hin und her one arrives at that incredible combination of all the main themes in the last two pages!  I was - again - amazed.

Like someone else said my first exposure to Bruckner's 8th was Schuricht/Vienna coupled with an equally impressive reading of the 9th. Someone the Viennese seem to own this piece as one can easily name half a dozen or so great recordings of this work by the Viennese. Maybe its those Viennese horns, especially the magical moment in the Adagio around the 6 and a half minute mark when the Wagner tubas come in.

Another standout recording that is a favorite of mine is the 5th with Jochum/Dresden. To me this symphony is like a marathon, and the energy that the SD musters at the end of the work, with that marvelous brass sound, is just otherworldly.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 13, 2018, 11:02:47 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 13, 2018, 06:59:39 AM
Like someone else said my first exposure to Bruckner's 8th was Schuricht/Vienna coupled with an equally impressive reading of the 9th. Someone the Viennese seem to own this piece as one can easily name half a dozen or so great recordings of this work by the Viennese. Maybe its those Viennese horns, especially the magical moment in the Adagio around the 6 and a half minute mark when the Wagner tubas come in.

Another standout recording that is a favorite of mine is the 5th with Jochum/Dresden. To me this symphony is like a marathon, and the energy that the SD musters at the end of the work, with that marvelous brass sound, is just otherworldly.

Amen to the Schuricht recordings of Bruckner!   0:)

I cannot recall if it goes back to early Bruckner conductors (e.g. Schalk, or even Mahler ) but some conductors have a trick: they hire 4 to 6 extra players to wait for the Fifth's grand peroration, and then they join in to make sure that everything is fresh and loud enough!  8)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 14, 2018, 07:23:23 AM
Quote from: Cato on June 13, 2018, 11:02:47 AM

Amen to the Schuricht recordings of Bruckner!   0:)

I cannot recall if it goes back to early Bruckner conductors (e.g. Schalk, or even Mahler ) but some conductors have a trick: they hire 4 to 6 extra players to wait for the Fifth's grand peroration, and then they join in to make sure that everything is fresh and loud enough!  8)
Yes I remember when i was in college I as entranced with the cover art which pretty much sums up Bruckner's 8th and 9th symphonies:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/416HM29112L.jpg)

The fact that it cost $13.98 brand new didn't hurt as the Karajan recording next to it costs over $30 spread out over 2 CDs.

I don't how common it is to have extra brass players in Bruckner, but seems like you routinely see a few extra horn players in Mahler and Strauss. In any event I think it aids the work rather than intrudes. Great conductors are rarely non-interventionists it is really the outcome that counts. I also think there is something special in the Dresden recording. The 2 other Jochum/B5 recordings I have (DG/BRSO and Philips/RCO) are also very good but not quite at the same level.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 14, 2018, 08:05:58 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 14, 2018, 07:23:23 AM
Yes I remember when i was in college I as entranced with the cover art which pretty much sums up Bruckner's 8th and 9th symphonies:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/416HM29112L.jpg)
\

I don't how common it is to have extra brass players in Bruckner, but seems like you routinely see a few extra horn players in Mahler and Strauss. In any event I think it aids the work rather than intrudes. Great conductors are rarely non-interventionists it is really the outcome that counts. I also think there is something special in the Dresden recording. The 2 other Jochum/B5 recordings I have (DG/BRSO and Philips/RCO) are also very good but not quite at the same level.

I have always wondered about the Dresden performances: was playing all the Bruckner symphonies - under  0:) Saint Eugen Jochum   0:) - somehow "freeing" in the atmosphere of the Deutsche Undemokratische Unrepublik ?  0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Biffo on June 14, 2018, 10:05:19 AM
Quote from: Cato on June 14, 2018, 08:05:58 AM
I have always wondered about the Dresden performances: was playing all the Bruckner symphonies - under  0:) Saint Eugen Jochum   0:) - somehow "freeing" in the atmosphere of the Deutsche Undemokratische Unrepublik ?  0:)

I am not sure what you mean.  'Freeing' for who?  The Dresden Staatskapelle and the Leipzig Gewandhaus were the DDR's showcase orchestras and played the standard Austro-German repertoire  under resident and guest conductors. Culture, like sport, was used for propaganda purposes.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 14, 2018, 12:48:35 PM
Quote from: Biffo on June 14, 2018, 10:05:19 AM
I am not sure what you mean.  'Freeing' for who?  The Dresden Staatskapelle and the Leipzig Gewandhaus were the DDR's showcase orchestras and played the standard Austro-German repertoire  under resident and guest conductors. Culture, like sport, was used for propaganda purposes.

Yes, I know!  I mean, despite any political purposes, did the players perhaps feel a sense of freedom by playing the works of Bruckner in a state where one could be shot for escaping it?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 14, 2018, 04:06:36 PM
Quote from: Cato on June 14, 2018, 12:48:35 PM
Yes, I know!  I mean, despite any political purposes, did the players perhaps feel a sense of freedom by playing the works of Bruckner in a state where one could be shot for escaping it?
I would think not. I think a lot of these non-musical extracurriculars are pretty overrated despite what we as the audience who spent our entires lives living in paradise compared to those in the Soviet Union or the DDR think. I tend to think musicians see notes and they play the notes, just a matter of execution.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 15, 2018, 07:38:51 AM
Enoch zu Guttenberg died. Bruckner is crying somewhere. But mostly I am.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 18, 2018, 05:10:43 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 15, 2018, 07:38:51 AM
Enoch zu Guttenberg died. Bruckner is crying somewhere. But mostly I am.


Never heard of him until recently here on G-M-G:  and he was not just Enoch zu Guttenberg, but Enoch... von und zu Guttenberg !    0:)  And about ten other names are in between there!

See:

http://www.enochzuguttenberg.de/index_e.htm (http://www.enochzuguttenberg.de/index_e.htm)

The link on that website to the review of the Bruckner Fourth Symphony does not work: here is a positive review.  (Some negative ones can be found.)

https://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/5003

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 18, 2018, 05:29:19 AM
Quote from: Cato on July 18, 2018, 05:10:43 AM

Never heard of him until recently here on G-M-G:  and he was not just Enoch zu Guttenberg, but Enoch... von und zu Guttenberg !    0:)  And about ten other names are in between there!

See:

http://www.enochzuguttenberg.de/index_e.htm (http://www.enochzuguttenberg.de/index_e.htm)

The link on that website to the review of the Bruckner Fourth Symphony does not work: here is a positive review.  (Some negative ones can be found.)

https://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/5003

He was a polarizing figure, ready to fight the good fight... and only did things of which he was ABSOLUTELY convinced. He studied (in a loose sense; i.e. looking at the score at least once a week) the Missa Solemnis for 35 years (!) before he performed it, because he hadn't truly 'understood' it, previously. (I still don't.) He had an unbelievable zest for life and an embracing charm where knowing him was just about tantamount to having to love him. His performances were always interesting; usually very good if you understood where he was coming from, although there were some occasional, real clunkers among the lot... which he was usually the first to admit to. His last recording (never intended to be his last) was just released; Schubert's Ninth.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 18, 2018, 06:08:42 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 18, 2018, 05:29:19 AM
He studied (in a loose sense; i.e. looking at the score at least once a week) the Missa Solemnis for 35 years (!) before he performed it, because he hadn't truly 'understood' it, previously.
Who did he studied with? Gilb Kaplan?
35 yrs you would think he can write the score out from memory forwards and backwards.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 18, 2018, 08:02:45 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 18, 2018, 06:08:42 AM
Who did he studied with? Gilb Kaplan?
35 yrs you would think he can write the score out from memory forwards and backwards.

He studied under Carl Feilitzsch (composition) and with Dorati and Paumgartner (conducting).

Backward and forwards is one thing. But to penetrate a work spiritually is yet another matter. He could have conducted it, of course... but whatever he did, he needed to really FEEL it. And with him, that wasn't just some phrase. Everything he conducted became an essential message of his own. He re-lived, more than he re-produced.

On the topic of Bruckner:

Many a fantastic Bruckner performance has taken place here. This year it'll be Luisi.

(https://i0.wp.com/surprisedbybeautyorg.files.wordpress.com/2018/07/dsc03029.jpg?ssl=1&w=450)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: an Ave Maria by Bruckner (WAB 7)
Post by: Cato on July 27, 2018, 05:48:16 AM
Courtesy of a Bruckner fan: Ave Maria (WAB 7)

https://www.youtube.com/v/BQcdT_xeVX0
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 29, 2018, 05:58:46 AM
Quote from: Cato on July 27, 2018, 05:48:16 AM
Courtesy of a Bruckner fan: Ave Maria (WAB 7)

https://www.youtube.com/v/BQcdT_xeVX0

Concerning Bruckner's sacred music, I have always used the Te Deum and the Mass #3 for my Latin classes, and the reaction from my (7th and 8th Grade) students has always been positive.

Many decades ago, I learned of the Te Deum when I was first discovering the Ninth Symphony, and the liner notes of course mentioned that Bruckner had suggested using the Te Deum as a final movement, in case he did not finish the finale.  The energy, the mystery, the energy, the sudden contrasts, and yes, the energy of the Te Deum made it one of my favorite works!

And for my students I play the one which first hooked me: Eugen  0:)  Jochum conducting the Berlin Philharmonic on DGG.

https://www.youtube.com/v/UgDBhcF8mus

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: relm1 on July 29, 2018, 06:12:20 AM
I saw the Te Deum in concert.  It packs quite a punch.  It was SFO/Herbert Blomstedt and I'll never forget that thundering organ and brass.  Unfortunately I was with someone who hated Bruckner (prefers more mellow music like Mozart, Vivaldi, etc.) so he was immediately annoyed by the aggressive onslaught. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on July 31, 2018, 06:32:38 AM
Brucknerthon 2018 announcement:

Join us on Saturday, September 1, 2018 for the 20th annual San Diego County Bruckner Marathon.

This year we'll play Bruckner's Symphonies 0-9 as well as a brand new recording, conducted by Gerd Schaller, of the Overture in G minor and the Quintet in F major, the latter in a new arrangement for orchestra by Gerd Schaller.  As always, the setting will be informal, with plenty of food and drinks to keep us going.  We'll also have our usual CD exchange; those unwanted CDs of yours could be someone else's treasure.

As in previous years, we offer a combination of live and studio recordings.  Our line-up includes classic performances conducted by Wilhelm Furtwängler, Herbert Kegel, and Lovro von Matačić.  We also celebrate the lives of Gennady Rozhdestvensky and Jesús López Cobos in performances of the Fifth and Sixth Symphonies.

Here are the selected recordings in the order in which they'll be played:

- Overture: Schaller/Prague Radio Symphony Orchestra (Profil CD, 2018)

- Symphony No. 0: Asahina/Osaka Philharmonic Orchestra (Tower Records SACD, 1978)

- Symphony No. 1: Bolton/Salzburg Mozarteum Orchestra (Oehms CD, 2013)

- Symphony No. 2: Tintner/National Symphony Orchestra of Ireland (Naxos CD, 1996)

- Symphony No. 3: Wildner/Westphalia Philharmonic Orchestra (1877 version, SonArte CD, 2001/2002)

- Symphony No. 4: Honeck/Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra (Reference Recordings SACD, 2013)

- Symphony No. 5: Rozhdestvensky/USSR Ministry of Culture Symphony Orchestra (Russian Revelation CD, 1984)

- Quintet: Schaller/Prague Radio Symphony Orchestra (Profil CD, 2018)

- Symphony No. 6: López Cobos/Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra (Telarc CD, 1991)

- Symphony No. 7: Furtwängler/Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Grand Slam CD, 1949)

- Symphony No. 8: Kegel/Leipzig Radio Symphony Orchestra (Pilz CD, 1975)

- Symphony No. 9: Matačić/Czech Philharmonic Orchestra (Denon CD, 1980)

When: Saturday, September 1, 2018, beginning at 9:00 AM

Where: 9863 Fox Valley Way, San Diego, CA 92127

Please feel free to bring your favorite food and drinks (especially Bruckner's favorite beverage) to share.  Contributions will be taken towards lunch and/or dinner.  For more information, contact Ramón Khalona at rkhalona@hotmail.com or Dave Griegel at dkgriegel@cox.net.  Please forward this invitation to others who may be interested.  RSVPs are appreciated!

Brand new this year, David Fox will be live-streaming the Brucknerthon, so those who can't make it to San Diego can enjoy the music as well.  Links will appear on The Brucknerthon YouTube channel on the day of the event.  Simply go to YouTube.com and search for "The Brucknerthon".  Subscribe to the channel and visit the page on September 1, after 9:00 Pacific Time, to listen.

Those who make it to San Diego should be sure to brush up on their Bruckner trivia before the event, as the winner of the annual Bruckner quiz will walk away with a special prize.

We look forward to seeing you.

Ramón Khalona and Dave Griegel

https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/news/the-2018-west-coast-br/
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 31, 2018, 07:38:52 AM
Quote from: Daverz on July 31, 2018, 06:32:38 AM
Brucknerthon 2018 announcement:

Join us on Saturday, September 1, 2018 for the 20th annual San Diego County Bruckner Marathon.

Ramón Khalona and Dave Griegel

https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/news/the-2018-west-coast-br/

Your announcement reminds me of a man who went around my neighborhood in Dayton with a hammer, nails, and homemade posters to announce his BACH FESTIVAL!

He had a large stereo system and a very looooong extension cord which he ran into the middle of a park, where he had set up folding chairs for those interested in J.S. Bach.  People did attend!

So you must give us details of the actual result!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on July 31, 2018, 07:50:08 AM
Quote from: Cato on July 31, 2018, 07:38:52 AM
Your announcement reminds me of a man who went around my neighborhood in Dayton with a hammer, nails, and homemade posters to announce his BACH FESTIVAL!

He had a large stereo system and a very looooong extension cord which he ran into the middle of a park, where he had set up folding chairs for those interested in J.S. Bach.  People did attend!

So you must give us details of the actual result!

Apparently they are going to live stream it on Youtube this year.  Don't know if this is just the music or will include shots of all us Bruckner nerds.

Here is a report on a previous year:

https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/features/the2012brucknerathon/schorereview/
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 03, 2018, 05:52:39 AM
I came across this by chance:

Quote             

,,Bruckner ist wieder in"

,,Bruckner war sehr heimatbezogen. Wir wollen ihn auch als Person beleuchten. Bruckner ist bei der Jugend wieder in, weil er etwas Monumentales hat. Das soll auch einfließen. Wir wollen ihn modern und zeitgemäß präsentieren, direkt in die Herzen der Oberösterreicherinnen und Oberösterreicher", sagt die Linzer Kultur- und Tourismusstadträtin Doris Lang-Mayerhofer, die stolz ist, dass sich dafür 13 Partner an einem Tisch versammelt haben und betont: ,,Bruckner soll für Oberösterreich das sein, was Mozart für Salzburg oder Wagner für Bayreuth ist".       


My translation:

"Bruckner is 'In" Again"

"Bruckner was very rooted in his homeland.  We also want to illuminate Bruckner as a person.  Bruckner is again 'in' among younng people, because he has something monumental.  That should also be incorporated.  We want to present him as modern and timely, directly into the hearts of Upper Austrians," says Doris Lang-Mayerhofer, City-Councilor for Culture and Tourism in Linz., who is very proud that 13 partners were gathered at her table, and emphasizes: "Bruckner should as important for Upper Austria as Mozart is for Salzburg, and Wagner for Bayreuth."

See:

https://volksblatt.at/anton-bruckner-neu-denken/ (https://volksblatt.at/anton-bruckner-neu-denken/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: BRUCKNERKUGELN ?
Post by: Cato on August 03, 2018, 06:02:37 AM
So I was thinking, if Linz wants to use Bruckner as a "brand name" for marketing, maybe they should consider something like this:

(https://secure.ce-tescoassets.com/assets/HU/017/9012200020017/ShotType1_328x328.jpg)

Questions: how BIG would a Brucknerkugel have to be, and what would be the ingredients?  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on August 03, 2018, 06:05:21 AM
Hah!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: BRUCKNERKUGELN ?
Post by: André on August 03, 2018, 06:16:53 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 03, 2018, 06:02:37 AM
So I was thinking, if Linz wants to use Bruckner as a "brand name" for marketing, maybe they should consider something like this:

(https://secure.ce-tescoassets.com/assets/HU/017/9012200020017/ShotType1_328x328.jpg)

Questions: 1) how BIG would a Brucknerkugel have to be, and 2) what would be the ingredients?  8)

1) One liter size
2) Hops
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 03, 2018, 06:22:18 AM
Quote from: André on August 03, 2018, 06:16:53 AM
1) One liter size
2) Hops

There is undoubtedly an under-served market for chewy beer!  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on August 03, 2018, 06:24:59 AM
Mix & match is the big thing. Molson Coors Brewery intends to market cannabis flavoured beer. Soon on your supermarket shelves...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 03, 2018, 08:31:51 AM
There is a Bach-Cube, sold by the same people who make the ORIGINAL Mozart Kugels (http://www.original-mozartkugel.com/en/mozartkugel/herstellung_mozartkugel.php). (You are showing the "ECHTE" Mozart Kugel type... which is different.

The Bach Cube is delicious!

This popular treat was created in 1985 in honour of Johann Sebastian Bach's 300th birthday. Made of layers of coffee truffle, nut truffle and marzipan, this bonbon is then coated in a thin layer of dark chocolate.

http://www.original-mozartkugel.com/en/produkte/hausspezialitaeten.php (http://www.original-mozartkugel.com/en/produkte/hausspezialitaeten.php)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 03, 2018, 02:28:42 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 03, 2018, 08:31:51 AM
There is a Bach-Cube, sold by the same people who make the ORIGINAL Mozart Kugels (http://www.original-mozartkugel.com/en/mozartkugel/herstellung_mozartkugel.php). (You are showing the "ECHTE" Mozart Kugel type... which is different.



This reminds me of the original Bakewell Tart. This dessert won't be familiar to anyone who wasn't born in the UK, but it's a baked tart with jam, coconut and egg. The supermarket version is pretty unappealing but if you go to the town of Bakewell in Derbyshire (in May or June when the trout are jumping in the River Wye), there are two shops who each claim to sell the original Bakewell Tart, and yet the two offerings are quite different.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 05, 2018, 02:18:18 PM
For those who have no interest in Wilhelm Furtwaengler as a composer or in his Brahms recordings, you might not have seen this quote from him concerning Bruckner, which was included in an article I mentioned here on GMG under those two topics:

Quote...Furtwängler writes: "Bruckner is one of the few geniuses . . . whose appointed task was to express the transcendental in human terms, to weave the power of God into the fabric of human life. Be it in struggles against demonic forces, or in music of blissful transfiguration, his whole mind and spirit were infused with thoughts of the divine." ...

See:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17845.40.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17845.40.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 07, 2018, 05:16:49 AM
Courtesy of a FaceBook Bruckner page: an article from c. 20 years ago about Celibidache and his approach to Bruckner:

Quote[1] This month sees the release by EMI of the Bruckner symphonies of German-based maestro Sergiu Celibidache. Even before his death in 1996, the Rumanian was often considered by many to be the last surviving great genius of conducting. The release of this collection is all the more special because Celibidache throughout his lifetime opposed recordings of his work. Throughout the world, it will be the first chance for many to discover why music critics wrote that Celibidache was capable of presenting an entirely new and extremely moving Bruckner.

[2] There has always been a special relationship between Celibidache and Bruckner, the former being said to have understood the latter like nobody else.

[3] "To him, time is different than it is to other composers. To a normal man, time is what comes after the beginning. To Bruckner, time is what comes after the end. All his apotheotical finals, the hope for another world, the hope of being saved, of being again baptised in light, it exists nowhere else in the same manner"—these were Celibidache's own words when asked about Bruckner. But what precisely did it mean for an orchestra? They had to play Bruckner with Celi's understanding of tempi, which made each symphony sound as if it were heard for the very first time, and much longer than ever before.

[4] "It meant very hard work," recalls Joerg Eggebrecht, who plays first Cello at the Munich Philharmonic orchestra, where Celibidache conducted from the early eighties until his death. "His way of rehearing put enormous pressure on us. If I study the score as closely as Celibidache, if I make it my life's work to play Bruckner as Bruckner meant us to play him—with great calm and quiet—then this means a great effort especially for the wind instruments. Some of my colleagues had actually taken up yoga in order to fulfil Celi's breathing technique requirements. The release of the CDs will show that our brass players play completely different than anything we have previously heard of Bruckner."

[5] Eggebrecht recalls that the wind instruments were required to precisely dosage of their breath. "To keep up this enormous peace and quiet all through the symphony was a great strain" he explains, adding: "but it means that our Bruckner performances were completely lacking in violence. Every note could be born at its own pace, all sound had its own space. Nothing was swallowed up. It was possible to hear every minute aspect of the music and comprehend what Bruckner had meant to bring across. It was like a moment of truth, and the musical space expanded beyond the orchestra, into the audience."

[6] Eggebrecht feels that Celibidache's Bruckner could have become a household name. "But he did not want to make recordings," the Cellist explains. "He said that our job as an orchestra is to perform the music as it was written down, to bring to life again the original emotion which had been felt at the time of writing. The composer had a certain experience, he used a kind of shorthand to write it down, and we must decipher it to bring the experience back to life. This had to be done anew each time the music was played. Hence, a CD could not fulfil the same purpose." The only reason why the concert recordings are now going to be released is due to Celibidache's son Serge, a film maker who lives in Paris and who believes that the arguably most fascinating Bruckner experience there ever was should not die together with his father.

[7] Peter Jonas, a graduate of the RCM who has formerly worked together with Solti in England is now the Intendant of the Bayerischer Staatsoper in Munich—the first English speaking Indendant ever in Germany. "I remember his Bruckner performances very well," Jonas reminiscences. "People have cried openly, without shame. It was so moving, it was more than mere music."

[8] It has been said that Celibidache's Bruckner was never an effort to listen to, that it sounded more like running water and clothed the soul of the listener. Music critics have called it natural, flowing, connecting with the very essence of sound. "That is easily explained," says Eggebrecht. "We found in his music elements which said that we are mortal, that we have an uncontrollable fate, that we go through periods of loneliness, of being god-removed. For all this there are symbols in his music. When a sound becomes reality, it is born. But at the same moment it already dies. The sound C or F comes out of the cosmic force. It is already there, all I have to do is to bring it forth on my instrument: the tuba, the cello. The very moment it is born, it dies already. Just take the wonderful start of the horn in the 4th symphony: bee bam da dee. A very simple structure, where the birth and demise of a sound is the symbol for life: how it arises and fades away."

[9] In rehearsals, Celibidache's reputation as a slave-driver and dictator was legendary. "Rightly so," recalls Joerg's brother Harald, a music critic for one of Germany's most respected newspapers. "I remember the first time I was sent to write about a rehearsal. I went there to write about a monster, whose reputation had preceded him. And it was exactly as I had been forewarned: there was great drama, he walked out, he sent a musician outside, he screamed, he abused the first violins. And yet, it wasn't like I had expected at all. Whatever he did, he was justified. I realised after a few minutes that his screaming was not for the sake of it: he had an immensely deep understanding of what music should be. He would not stand for anything less than perfection, and he got angry of he felt anyone in his orchestra was not taking the music as seriously as he did. I became one of his greatest defenders, and one of his best friends. Outside of the music, he was the nicest person."

[10] Indeed, Celibidache must have been a very kind man: all his rehearsals were open to the public "to give everyone access to music." He rescued stray dogs from the pound. He always had an open door and heart for his musicians when rehearsals were over, and he maintained very close personal relations with his students and many members of his orchestra.

[11] One of Celibidache's best friends became Helmut Nicolai, first viola and today also the head of the Rosamunde quartet, which is rapidly shooting to fame and will be in the limelight again this month with the world premiere of Bruckner's favorite student Hans Rott's string quartet at the Berlin Festival.

[12] "I do recall my first rehearsal with him," says Nicolai. "I had come from the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra under Karajan, wanting to work with Celibidache, but I had no idea what it meant. It meant four or five days' rehearsal, and each time we performed a symphony again we had to rehearse it as if it were the first time. He wanted a new experience to come out of the music with every performance. What I liked about him was that he always called us by our first names, not by our instrument. It made us feel human, but he wanted something in return. We were not just to play our own notes but to listen where our instrument stands in relation to the entire orchestra. He wanted us to think for ourselves, rather than just being the executive branch. We had to consider the music in its entirety, like the conductor, and he got mad when he found we were just playing our notes. Once or twice I had to tell him not to scream at the first violins so much, because the poor guys got so upset that I was afraid they would eventually become too scared to ever play freely again. What he did not understand is that you have to balance compliments and punishment when you rehearse."

[13] Joerg was there for the first rehearsal ever with Celibidache. "It started with him saying: what is wrong with your breathing technique? to one of the winds. The poor guy replies: I breathe like all the others. And Celi goes: is that so? You want to be like everyone else, do you? But not here, not with me."

[14] "And we had to start all over again, as if we had to go back to school to grade one. You have to imagine that: we were a well-known, well-respected European orchestra. So a bass player gets up and he says: but Maestro, we aren't a student orchestra. And Celi says: but you look like you are. What's your name? Come on, sit down and play for me."

[15] "And then we really started work. Ten days. It was as if he had locked the doors to prevent is from leaving, it was really serious. And he said to us: you think I am joking, don't think that, gentlemen."

[16] Joerg recalls his first Bruckner rehearsal just as vividly. "The first tremolo came up, and he says: what are you doing? Chicki, chicki, chicki. Wrong, wrong. The tremolo has to sound like hot air. What can we do? Let's all play at different frequencies, come on, try it out."

[17] Celibidache saw his work on Bruckner's symphonies as being defined by the syllable sym = unity. Each member of the orchestra had to be part of the whole. "When we went on tour to the United States," recalls Eggebrecht, "although Bruckner is not as widely known there as he is here, everyone was spellbound by our performance. I recall an American colleague saying at the start: look they do different bow speeds, but it sounds nice."

[18] Nicolai once observed a deeply moved Celibidache at the grave of Bruckner in St. Florian. "There is no question that he felt very connected to Bruckner as a person. This may explain the spectacular sound experiences that he could turn a Bruckner symphony into. Celibidache had survived the second World War. As a young man he had been in Berlin when the city was bombed. He fled from the horror of his memories into the world of music. With the help of Bruckner, he drowned out the screams of children he had seen die. Music was more than music to him, it was his reason for staying alive."

See:

http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.98.4.5/mto.98.4.5.james.html (http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.98.4.5/mto.98.4.5.james.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on August 07, 2018, 05:33:50 AM
Very nice, thanks.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 23, 2018, 08:17:17 AM
I came across this via an Austrian website: the article implied that this was a video recording of Leonard Bernstein's last conducting performance before his death.  The program included Bruckner's Ninth Symphony.

Quote,,So hat man Bruckners kompositorisches* Meisterwerk noch nie gehört", titelten die Zeitungen damals. Eine Aufführung, die mit stehenden Ovationen gefeiert wurde.

(Bruckner's masterpiece has never been heard like this, said newspaper headlines at the time.  A performance, which was celebrated with standing ovations.)

*("compositionally" seems to be some sort of academic preciosity, although I could be wrong.  Perhaps a German member here can comment.   I suppose one could translate it as "masterpiece of his composing career," or a "masterpiece of composition," which still seems unnecessary.)

Anyway...

See:  https://ooe.orf.at/news/stories/2931670/ (https://ooe.orf.at/news/stories/2931670/)


https://www.youtube.com/v/Tw2LNhwnquk&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on August 23, 2018, 08:39:24 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 23, 2018, 08:17:17 AM
I came across this via an Austrian website: the article implied that this was a video recording of Leonard Bernstein's last conducting performance before his death.  The program included Bruckner's Ninth Symphony.

(Bruckner's masterpiece has never been heard like this, said newspaper headlines at the time.  A performance, which was celebrated with standing ovations.)

*("compositionally" seems to be some sort of academic preciosity, although I could be wrong.  Perhaps a German member here can comment.   I suppose one could translate it as "masterpiece of his composing career," or a "masterpiece of composition," which still seems unnecessary.)

Anyway...

See:  https://ooe.orf.at/news/stories/2931670/ (https://ooe.orf.at/news/stories/2931670/)
Yeah, "compositional masterpiece" is certainly unnecessary - it's not as if we'd otherwise think it was his finest piece of bakery. A shame that there wasn't a finale in Bernstein's final performance..
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Draško on August 23, 2018, 09:11:37 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 23, 2018, 08:17:17 AM
I came across this via an Austrian website: the article implied that this was a video recording of Leonard Bernstein's last conducting performance before his death.  The program included Bruckner's Ninth Symphony.

They probably meant his last conducted performance in Austria, or with the Vienna Philharmonic, or the last recorded on video.

His last ever conducted performance will be some six months later at Tanglewood. This one:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51sFw0uZq8L.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 23, 2018, 10:33:51 AM
Quote from: Draško on August 23, 2018, 09:11:37 AM
They probably meant his last conducted performance in Austria, or with the Vienna Philharmonic, or the last recorded on video.

His last ever conducted performance will be some six months later at Tanglewood. This one:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51sFw0uZq8L.jpg)

I thought that there was a later performance of something: many thanks!

Quote from: North Star on August 23, 2018, 08:39:24 AM
Yeah, "compositional masterpiece" is certainly unnecessary - it's not as if we'd otherwise think it was his finest piece of bakery. A shame that there wasn't a finale in Bernstein's final performance..

Yes, that would have been really something!  Unfortunately the quartet of musicologists had not yet come together to reconstruct the sketches of the Finale.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: North Star on August 23, 2018, 10:39:37 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 23, 2018, 10:33:51 AM
Yes, that would have been really something!  Unfortunately the quartet of musicologists had not yet come together to reconstruct the sketches of the Finale.
True, that's a pretty good excuse 0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 23, 2018, 01:33:41 PM
Some impressions from St. Florian (Bruckner 7)

(https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39868997_10155937603962989_2043921781651144704_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=a3cfbb1c55f7d92cdee1fbfa5bd8489c&oe=5BFF9503)

(https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39916202_10155937603942989_3171279009552007168_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=e271760204a15cdaa310369a684318e8&oe=5BEFA04F)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 23, 2018, 01:36:44 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 23, 2018, 01:33:41 PM
Some impressions from St. Florian (Bruckner 7)

(https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39868997_10155937603962989_2043921781651144704_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=a3cfbb1c55f7d92cdee1fbfa5bd8489c&oe=5BFF9503)

(https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39916202_10155937603942989_3171279009552007168_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=e271760204a15cdaa310369a684318e8&oe=5BEFA04F)

Marvelous!  So were you in the choir loft?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 23, 2018, 02:21:24 PM
Quote from: Cato on August 23, 2018, 01:36:44 PM
Marvelous!  So were you in the choir loft?

Unfortunately. But the performance was such, that it didn't too much harm. In the B9, some years earlier, it had obscured even more of it. There aren't many good seats in St. Florian... only above the orchestra and in the first 10 rows, maybe. The worst is somewhere back in row 27 or so. Muddle instead of music.  ;D Very intriguing performance, though! A score was used that was ridded of all accents and marks and additions that Schalk put into the score. (On Bruckner's behest or not; who knows.) Result was very much a smoothly flowing, anti-bombastic 7th. Despite the (however did that get to stay?) cymbal clash.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 24, 2018, 03:48:55 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 23, 2018, 02:21:24 PM
Unfortunately. But the performance was such, that it didn't too much harm. In the B9, some years earlier, it had obscured even more of it. There aren't many good seats in St. Florian... only above the orchestra and in the first 10 rows, maybe. The worst is somewhere back in row 27 or so. Muddle instead of music.  ;D Very intriguing performance, though! A score was used that was ridded of all accents and marks and additions that Schalk put into the score. (On Bruckner's behest or not; who knows.) Result was very much a smoothly flowing, anti-bombastic 7th. Despite the (however did that get to stay?) cymbal clash.

I have been under the impression that modern musicologists e.g. Leopold Nowak have done away with all of the "improvements" from the Brothers Schalk and others, in an attempt to restore Bruckner's original intentions.  Do you know which specific edition was used in the performance which you attended?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 24, 2018, 04:19:18 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 24, 2018, 03:48:55 AM
I have been under the impression that modern musicologists e.g. Leopold Nowak have done away with all of the "improvements" from the Brothers Schalk and others, in an attempt to restore Bruckner's original intentions.  Do you know which specific edition was used in the performance which you attended?

Yes, it's a brand new edition and this time they took out all that was done in the handwriting (!) of Schalk in Bruckner's score. Will get you more info anon.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on August 29, 2018, 07:45:27 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 23, 2018, 02:21:24 PM
Unfortunately. But the performance was such, that it didn't too much harm. In the B9, some years earlier, it had obscured even more of it. There aren't many good seats in St. Florian... only above the orchestra and in the first 10 rows, maybe. The worst is somewhere back in row 27 or so. Muddle instead of music.  ;D Very intriguing performance, though! A score was used that was ridded of all accents and marks and additions that Schalk put into the score. (On Bruckner's behest or not; who knows.) Result was very much a smoothly flowing, anti-bombastic 7th. Despite the (however did that get to stay?) cymbal clash.

Thanks for the interesting report (and the great photos!). A visit to St. Florian is on my (very long) list.

--Bruce
Title: Brucknerthon 2018
Post by: bhodges on August 29, 2018, 07:59:03 PM
On Saturday, 1 September, the annual Brucknerthon will happen in Carlsbad, California. It is hosted by a couple of devout fans, who play all of the symphonies (and sometimes other items) in order. All of the recordings are notable, including some rare air checks. Attendees are encouraged to come and go, and to bring "Bruckner's favorite beverage" (beer).

This year, the event will be broadcast live on Facebook. Search for "Brucknerthon" for details.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Brucknerthon 2018
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 30, 2018, 02:53:02 AM
Quote from: Brewski on August 29, 2018, 07:59:03 PM
On Saturday, 1 September, the annual Brucknerthon will happen in Carlsbad, California. It is hosted by a couple of devout fans, who play all of the symphonies (and sometimes other items) in order. All of the recordings are notable, including some rare air checks. Attendees are encouraged to come and go, and to bring "Bruckner's favorite beverage" (beer).

This year, the event will be broadcast live on Facebook. Search for "Brucknerthon" for details.

--Bruce

Good morning, Bruce.

I searched and didn't find this on FB, could've been user error, but if you have, or find, a link could you please post it? I would be interested to read about it.

Thanks, Bruce!
Title: Re: Brucknerthon 2018
Post by: bhodges on August 30, 2018, 03:43:16 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 30, 2018, 02:53:02 AM
Good morning, Bruce.

I searched and didn't find this on FB, could've been user error, but if you have, or find, a link could you please post it? I would be interested to read about it.

Thanks, Bruce!

Well, thank YOU, Greg, since I am unable to find the info myself! (The source -- reputable -- implied that it would pop right up during a search.) Let me do some more digging -- since I was planning to listen to a good chunk of it! -- and post here. That's what I get for not vetting properly!  :-[

Update: OK, think I found it, on YouTube. Will post any additional info if located.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5LsP9B19ZT7UhnOTmoD22A

--Bruce
Title: Re: Brucknerthon 2018
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 30, 2018, 05:35:04 AM
Quote from: Brewski on August 30, 2018, 03:43:16 AM
Well, thank YOU, Greg, since I am unable to find the info myself! (The source -- reputable -- implied that it would pop right up during a search.) Let me do some more digging -- since I was planning to listen to a good chunk of it! -- and post here. That's what I get for not vetting properly!  :-[

Update: OK, think I found it, on YouTube. Will post any additional info if located.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5LsP9B19ZT7UhnOTmoD22A

--Bruce

Cool.  8) Thanks for the link, Bruce!
Title: Re: Brucknerthon 2018
Post by: Daverz on September 01, 2018, 10:07:19 PM
Quote from: Brewski on August 30, 2018, 03:43:16 AM
Well, thank YOU, Greg, since I am unable to find the info myself! (The source -- reputable -- implied that it would pop right up during a search.) Let me do some more digging -- since I was planning to listen to a good chunk of it! -- and post here. That's what I get for not vetting properly!  :-[

Update: OK, think I found it, on YouTube. Will post any additional info if located.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5LsP9B19ZT7UhnOTmoD22A

--Bruce

Did anyone listen to the live stream?  I spent most of the time yakking, eating, or drinking, but I was impressed by the Asahina 0, the arrangement (not just an enlargement) of the Quintet, the Furtwängler 7 (1949), and the Kegel 8.  I'd like to listen to the Matačić 9 without distractions.  I only got 27% on the quiz :p.
Title: Re: Brucknerthon 2018
Post by: Cato on September 03, 2018, 11:40:43 AM
Quote from: Daverz on September 01, 2018, 10:07:19 PM
Did anyone listen to the live stream?  I spent most of the time yakking, eating, or drinking, but I was impressed by the Asahina 0, the arrangement (not just an enlargement) of the Quintet, the Furtwängler 7 (1949), and the Kegel 8.  I'd like to listen to the Matačić 9 without distractions.  I only got 27% on the quiz :p.

Greetings!

Many thanks for the link!  I will need to wait until tomorrow to listen to the performances.  The performance of the Symphony 0 is especially intriguing for me.  Four years ago or so, the Toledo Symphony under Stefan Sanderling played Die Nullte in the Roman Catholic cathedral there.  (They had for a while played a different Bruckner symphony every year at that cathedral in the early 2000's.  They have not done it for a while: possibly a new bishop stopped it for whatever reason, but I am not sure.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on September 03, 2018, 11:43:36 AM
The new bishop must be a descendant of Eduard Hanslick  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 03, 2018, 02:18:01 PM
Quote from: André on September 03, 2018, 11:43:36 AM
The new bishop must be a descendant of Eduard Hanslick  8)

Possibly!   :D    His arrival and the end of the concerts (they were very well attended) could be coincidental.   0:)   Nothing scheduled this year: a new conductor is in charge, a French Canadian named Alain Trudel.  He has scheduled a good number of "pops" concerts, but those have not affected the regular concerts.  I noticed a few contemporary works were on the programs.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on September 03, 2018, 04:39:26 PM
Trudel is a trombonist turned conductor. His latest gig was with the Laval symphony, where I live. Never heard him live, though :-[. From what I've read he is quite good. This cd is worth listening to:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/719zkGD4z3L._SX522_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 03, 2018, 05:20:35 PM
Quote from: André on September 03, 2018, 04:39:26 PM
Trudel is a trombonist turned conductor. His latest gig was with the Laval symphony, where I live. Never heard him live, though :-[. From what I've read he is quite good. This cd is worth listening to:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/719zkGD4z3L._SX522_.jpg)

Many thanks, André

His biography at the Toledo Symphony website quotes someone calling him "the Jascha Heifetz of the trombone."   8)  Now THAT is high praise!  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ainsi la nuit on September 06, 2018, 12:59:42 PM
I have a confession to make...

...I actually love Bruckner's very early F minor symphony, even though it's clearly a student work when compared with his later efforts.

There, I said it. Of course I would never choose the piece of any of Bruckner's other symphonies - goes without saying! - but I still enjoy listening to it way more than I probably should.

The reason for this message was a new listening-trough of the symphonies that I began today, and the F minor is always my point of departure in such efforts. This time I chose Ashkenazy's reading with the Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, an Ondine release that marked his only recorded Bruckner, at least so far. I wonder what's Ashkenazy's motivation behind preserving his interpretation of this early work and leaving the later masterpieces untouched? Anyway, it's a fine performance, and Ashkenazy has certainly kept himself busy with a lot of other repertoire. Maybe there just isn't time for everything...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 06, 2018, 02:45:18 PM
Quote from: Ainsi la nuit on September 06, 2018, 12:59:42 PM
I have a confession to make...

...I actually love Bruckner's very early F minor symphony, even though it's clearly a student work when compared with his later efforts.

There, I said it. Of course I would never choose the piece of any of Bruckner's other symphonies - goes without saying! - but I still enjoy listening to it way more than I probably should.

The reason for this message was a new listening-trough of the symphonies that I began today, and the F minor is always my point of departure in such efforts. This time I chose Ashkenazy's reading with the Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, an Ondine release that marked his only recorded Bruckner, at least so far. I wonder what's Ashkenazy's motivation behind preserving his interpretation of this early work and leaving the later masterpieces untouched? Anyway, it's a fine performance, and Ashkenazy has certainly kept himself busy with a lot of other repertoire. Maybe there just isn't time for everything...

I could be mistaken, and I cannot find information one way or the other, but I believe Ashkenazy conducted a Bruckner symphony (the Fifth?)  with the Cleveland Orchestra in the late 1990's or early 2000's.  I might be misremembering: he and Dohnanyi are similar in body shape, if not facially.

If he is interested in a really complete Bruckner cycle, the Study Symphony is the place to start!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on September 06, 2018, 04:24:29 PM
Quote from: Ainsi la nuit on September 06, 2018, 12:59:42 PM
...I actually love Bruckner's very early F minor symphony, even though it's clearly a student work when compared with his later efforts.

I find it very Schumannesque.  I only have the Skrowaczewski.  I'll try the Ashkenazy (Tidal search term "bruckner f minor deutsches").
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 06, 2018, 10:50:22 PM
Quote from: Cato on September 06, 2018, 02:45:18 PM... I might be misremembering: he and Dohnanyi are similar in body shape, if not facially.


What??? Dohnanyi is VERY tall (6.2?) - and Ashkenazy is VERY smal (5.4?)l. Neither are fat, though, I'll grant you. :-)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Marc on September 07, 2018, 12:20:25 AM
Quote from: Daverz on September 06, 2018, 04:24:29 PM
I find it very Schumannesque.  [...]

Same here.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 07, 2018, 05:20:30 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on September 06, 2018, 10:50:22 PM
What??? Dohnanyi is VERY tall (6.2?) - and Ashkenazy is VERY smal (5.4?)l. Neither are fat, though, I'll grant you. :-)

Well, from where I was sitting, Dohnanyi seemed rather short!

But here is a story for you: I once had to see a doctor for an infection, a specialist named Dr. Sood.  After about three visits I was cured: the infection had caused me some fairly severe pain.

Seven or eight years later, my little son needed a minor operation, and the surgeon was Dr. Sood.  So I said to my little boy: "You'll like Dr. Sood!  He's real tall and thin, taller than I am (I am 6' 3") even!  He's the nicest!"  So my wife took our son to meet him and prepare things several days before.

So at the hospital, my wife and I are together with our son in a large preparation room.  About twenty feet away an Indian doctor arrives with several other doctors and nurses.  The Indian doctor is about 5' 2" tall.  He comes over to our son and says: "How are you doing, my little friend?"  And after saying a feew more things about the simplicity of the procedure, he leaves.

So I said: "Who was that?"

Mrs. Cato: (incredulous): "What's the matter with you? What do you mean 'who is that?' ?  That's Dr. Sood!"

I (hearing Bernard Herrmann's Twilight Zone music and doubly incredulous): "No, that's impossible!  Dr. Sood is 6 feet 5 inches tall at a minimum!  That is some other doctor from Bombay!"

Mrs. Cato: "WHAT?!  No, that's Dr. Sood!"

I cannot tell you how weird that felt!!!   :o   Finally, some time later, the solution came to me: every time I had seen Dr. Sood at his office, I was lying prone on a low examination table, and when he walked in, he seemed immensely tall, barely able to make it through the threshold!     ???   Imagine a camera near the floor, shooting at a person upward at a 45-degree angle to make the person seem huge: that was my perspective and memory of Dr. Sood!

So, I have had trouble judging people's height from a distance!  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 08, 2018, 06:10:26 AM
Quote from: Cato on September 07, 2018, 05:20:30 PM


I cannot tell you how weird that felt!!!   :o   Finally, some time later, the solution came to me: every time I had seen Dr. Sood at his office, I was lying prone on a low examination table, and when he walked in, he seemed immensely tall, barely able to make it through the threshold!     ???   Imagine a camera near the floor, shooting at a person upward at a 45-degree angle to make the person seem huge: that was my perspective and memory of Dr. Sood!

So, I have had trouble judging people's height from a distance!  ;)

;D :) Perspective matters. Not foreshortening so much in this case, as after-shortening.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on September 08, 2018, 07:06:18 AM
Quote from: Cato on September 07, 2018, 05:20:30 PMSo, I have had trouble judging people's height from a distance!  ;)

From which I am to conclude you spent the entire Ashkenazy concert lying prone on the floor?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 08, 2018, 07:23:53 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on September 08, 2018, 07:06:18 AM
From which I am to conclude you spent the entire Ashkenazy concert lying prone on the floor?

First row should have the same effect. Great view of the 1st Violins' socks, in most places, and a Salvador Dali's / El Grecco like  impression of the conductor.  :P
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Glenn Gould?
Post by: Cato on September 12, 2018, 01:31:33 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on September 08, 2018, 06:10:26 AM
;D :) Perspective matters. Not foreshortening so much in this case, as after-shortening.

Amen!

On topic: I have been re-listening to the String Quintet in the string orchestra version, and came across a recommendation for GLENN GOULD playing a transcription of the Adagio!  It is only the opening, however.

https://www.youtube.com/v/pcsGWJwi84U

For the orchestral version:

https://www.youtube.com/v/1i8JdhN1EsA&app=desktop
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 08, 2018, 10:37:22 AM
I came across a reference to Valery Gergiev's Bruckner cycle with the Munich Philharmonic.

Early reviews, however, on Amazon are not encouraging:

Quote

Bruckner's Third Symphony is coming into vogue. Whatever the edition might be, it's been a bumper crop of late, even if some of the endeavours are unimpressive and knackery-bound from inception

One of the precepts of the Australian Knappertsbusch Association is that Russian conductors and orchestras alike should avoid Bruckner like the pox: it's not in their remit. Like so much of his handiwork, Gergiev's B3 is crude and unreflective. Not that it matters, but the 1889 edition is in use and the brass of the Munich Philharmonic - in their mastery - do not evoke a stampede of elephants (cf. their Leningrad or Moscow counterparts). In all honesty, I cannot recall an account of the slow movement which so skates over its Innigkeit. Nothing is born of necessity. Nothing is at stake. Across the expanse of this symphony, Gergiev's phrasing is unidiomatic. This is amply demonstrated in the chorale of the finale. Is this really Bruckner? I'm hesitant to say so. For all I know, it could be pseudo Rimsky-Korsakov as it draws upon any number of wellsprings to mask the lack of an interpretative stance and ease-at-depth. The articulation in the coda of the finale is soupier than anything from the kitchen of Herbert von Karajan. It's a horror beyond redemption.

Slickness counts for nothing in this domain. I wasted an hour of my life on this vapidity. Give it the widest of berths.

This reviewer gave it 2/5 stars.

It is interesting that, right now, Oct. 8, 2018, 5 reviews for the Fourth Symphony are posted, each one representing a separate level, from 5-stars to 1-star!

See:

https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-Valery-Gergiev/dp/B01IFRTVTK/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1539023089&sr=1-3&keywords=Bruckner+Gergiev (https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-Valery-Gergiev/dp/B01IFRTVTK/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1539023089&sr=1-3&keywords=Bruckner+Gergiev)

e.g. a review of the Mp3 download, so perhaps some caution is in order....

Quote

Very disappointed with the sound quality on this recording. Gergiev has been advertising that he will record the complete cycle, but one would have expected with a good orchestra and such a major conductor that Bruckner would be treated properly to an outstanding sounding recording. Why purchase a recording made recently of Bruckner if it sounds more than 50 years old? One needs the richness, beautiful and magnificence the symphony offers - Munich - I expected more from you.


And...the 5-star:

Quote

hopefully he'll do 3, 5, 7-9 to close out. Enjoy!


;)

Has anyone heard these Gergiev/Munich Philharmonic performances?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 08, 2018, 11:02:17 AM
Quote from: Cato on October 08, 2018, 10:37:22 AM

Has anyone heard these Gergiev/Munich Philharmonic performances?

Some. Also live. Started "UGH" but has really come around. I wouldn't actively seek it out on record, but it's becoming good. Much like his LSO Mahler eventually became pretty good.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on October 08, 2018, 12:52:45 PM
Quote from: Cato on October 08, 2018, 10:37:22 AM
I came across a reference to Valery Gergiev's Bruckner cycle with the Munich Philharmonic.

Early reviews, however, on Amazon are not encouraging:

This reviewer gave it 2/5 stars.

It is interesting that, right now, Oct. 8, 2018, 5 reviews for the Fourth Symphony are posted, each one representing a separate level, from 5-stars to 1-star!

See:

https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-Valery-Gergiev/dp/B01IFRTVTK/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1539023089&sr=1-3&keywords=Bruckner+Gergiev (https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-Valery-Gergiev/dp/B01IFRTVTK/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1539023089&sr=1-3&keywords=Bruckner+Gergiev)

e.g. a review of the Mp3 download, so perhaps some caution is in order....

And...the 5-star:

;)

Has anyone heard these Gergiev/Munich Philharmonic performances?

This review looks suspiciously like the work of Bernard O'Hanlon... ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 08, 2018, 01:06:23 PM
Quote from: André on October 08, 2018, 12:52:45 PM
This review looks suspiciously like the work of Bernard O'Hanlon... ::)

Yes it is, for the Bruckner Third Symphony.

I was ignorant of the name, but have found these comments from elsewhere (from the Vivaldi topic) on GMG:

Quote from: Mookalafalas on April 06, 2015, 11:47:41 PM

  Is it only me, or do all of the bad reviews sound like they are written by the same person?  Amazon reviews are rife with cranks who have become addicted to various hobby horses (and sometimes, judging by their over-the-top rants, controlled substances).  I haven't heard this disc, but agree that you should find alternative opinions/reviews!



Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2015, 04:19:34 AM

Many of them don't even make sense. One of my favorites is "Bernard O'Hanlon", who hates PI. He is a fine writer though, far better than ... Hurwitz, and he really can make you laugh, albeit while admitting that he is full of sh!t to the nth degree.  :D  He is on the same plane for me as "Santa Fe Listener"; much better writer, but equally insipid in his tastes. I use them as a sort of 'anti-touchstone'.


Thanks for the information, Andre'!


Here is "O'Hanlon's" review for the Fourth Symphony, or is it the result of an arachnoid brain tumor?  The first paragraph might be of interest to a psychiatrist:

Quote

As he is yet to bother with Bach, Haydn or Mozart – the important stuff – Gergiev's new recording of the Bruckner 4th is welcome: at last I have a read on the guy. After all, what does a performance of Rachmaninov's Third Symphony with the LSO mean in the scheme of things? Answer: chicken-pellets. Some have suggested that on looks alone, the Russian conductor is a former 'black-on-black' operative of the Australian Knappertsbusch Association. This much I can say officially: there was a Treadstone program in place. It remains classified to this day. Those grimy photos from the Dieppe-style raid on Jeggy's farm in Dorset are neither here nor there. For sure, Gergiev was in Stuttgart at the time of the last assassination attempt on Norrington (the exploding frozen pizza) - it was a coincidence. René Jacobs can squeal as much as he likes: there is no evidence to link Gergiev with the zapper in the man-perm dryer-hood at the salon.

As for this Bruckner 4th, little comment is required. This is the proverbial bull-in-a-china-shop – a very determined bull for sure but a bull nonetheless. There's not an ion of mystery here. With nothing else to say, Gergiev plays the drama-card on every occasion and relentlessly so. Not once does he luxuriate in the vision splendid – it eludes him in any event. Epicentres are undetectable when the promulgation of a dramatic narrative is so relentless and hard-driven. The airless semi-murky recording here is the least of the problems at hand - it adds little to the value proposition.

Seekers of cosmic wonder would be better served hitting the NASA website than listening to this prosaic endeavour.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on October 08, 2018, 01:13:59 PM
 ;)

Truth is, the guy IS funny to read, which makes his reviews all the more insidious. At least Hurwitz prominently displays his vitriolic rants under the banner « cd from hell », and we know it often signals an interesting recording  :D.

That being said, I wouldn't rush to buy a Bruckner symphony under Gergiev. He certainly made some excellent recordings, but often he either misses the mark or simply sounds not wholly committed. I would try to hear extended samples first.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on October 08, 2018, 02:37:32 PM
Wow, the Universe does balance itself: there's a Gergiev hater on Amazon to balance out embarrassing Gergiev fanboi Santa Fe Listener (AKA Huntley Dent.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Alek Hidell on October 09, 2018, 08:07:10 PM
Quote from: Cato on October 08, 2018, 01:06:23 PM
Yes it is, for the Bruckner Third Symphony.

I was ignorant of the name, but have found these comments from elsewhere (from the Vivaldi topic) on GMG:


Thanks for the information, Andre'!

Just look at the reviews for any recording by Gardiner or Norrington: almost invariably you'll find a disparaging review by this fellow, who refers to the two conductors as "Jeggy" and "Sir Woger" respectively. He's like their personal cyber-stalker. As André said, his reviews are usually fun to read, quite literate and witty (if in a pompously self-conscious way), but after a while you start to wonder: does this guy ever listen to anything he LIKES?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on October 09, 2018, 08:17:39 PM
Quote from: André on October 08, 2018, 01:13:59 PM
;)

Truth is, the gI uy IS funny to read, which makes his reviews all the more insidious. At least Hurwitz prominently displays his vitriolic rants under the banner « cd from hell », and we know it often signals an interesting recording  :D.

That being said, I wouldn't rush to buy a Bruckner symphony under Gergiev. He certainly made some excellent recordings, but often he either misses the mark or simply sounds not wholly committed. I would try to hear extended samples first.

That review was so over the top I had to order it just to hear it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 10, 2018, 04:13:55 AM
Quote from: JBS on October 09, 2018, 08:17:39 PM
That review was so over the top I had to order it just to hear it.

:D

I used to have a few records that I kept as examples of awful performances: I remember a recording of the 1812 Overture which was conducted so slowly, that I had to make sure the speed had not been bumped down to 16 rpm!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 10, 2018, 05:43:57 AM
Quote from: André on October 08, 2018, 01:13:59 PM
;)

Truth is, the guy IS funny to read, which makes his reviews all the more insidious. At least Hurwitz prominently displays his vitriolic rants under the banner « cd from hell », and we know it often signals an interesting recording  :D.
i think Hurwitz is prone to exaggerations. A lot of the Roger Norrington recordings (like Mahler, Tchaikovsky, Bruckner) that he panned are actually not all that different except Sir Roger doesn't use vibrato.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on October 10, 2018, 07:41:30 AM
Quote from: André on October 08, 2018, 01:13:59 PMThat being said, I wouldn't rush to buy a Bruckner symphony under Gergiev. He certainly made some excellent recordings, but often he either misses the mark or simply sounds not wholly committed. I would try to hear extended samples first.

If I had to name one conductor whose fame is inexplicable, it would be Gergiev. Makes Abbado look like Toscanini.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on October 10, 2018, 08:17:31 AM
Agreed. His Prokofiev and Mahler symphony cycles left me wanting for more bite and character. I never had the feeling he could fire up the orchestra out of its comfort zone. His Shostakovich 7th with the combined Rotterdam and Kirov orchestras OTOH is quite good.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on October 10, 2018, 08:21:59 AM
Quote from: André on October 10, 2018, 08:17:31 AM
Agreed. His Prokofiev and Mahler symphony cycles left me wanting for more bite and character. I never had the feeling he could fire up the orchestra out of its comfort zone. His Shostakovich 7th with the combined Rotterdam and Kirov orchestras OTOH is quite good.

Someone I know in the music biz claimed he is essentially a fraud. The performance is prepared entirely by assistance conductors and he shows up at the last minute to wave the baton. I can't say I have any direct knowledge.

I remember liking a recording of Prokofiev Romeo and Juliet on Philips. Everything else has been a disappointment.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on October 10, 2018, 10:09:19 AM
The Prokofiev Piano Concertos with Toradze are slow but very powerful and overall quite impressive (this may be my only Gergiev recording...).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Draško on October 10, 2018, 10:15:05 AM
I like quite a few Gergiev recordings but it's all Russian repertoire and all with Mariinsky/Kirov Orchestra.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 10, 2018, 02:31:14 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on October 10, 2018, 08:21:59 AM
Someone I know in the music biz claimed he is essentially a fraud. The performance is prepared entirely by assistance conductors and he shows up at the last minute to wave the baton. I can't say I have any direct knowledge.

I remember liking a recording of Prokofiev Romeo and Juliet on Philips. Everything else has been a disappointment.

No, he's certainly not. He might be part quack, he may be tiresome, he may be all kinds of things. But he's an insanely hard worker; he's got his Mariinsky Orchestra under total control and he CAN create some extraordinary musical experiences. And he's a very quick learner; his Wagner used to be loathsome (I witnessed a dreadful Parsifal in concert); five years later his recording was quite good; his Walkuere is excellent. His early Brucker with Munich, including the above-discussed Fourth was very ho-hum and pointless... but recent Bruckner performances were rather notable. His style tends to wear off on non-Mariisnky Orchestras after a while, but even there he can galvanize them into really spectacular performances. Admittedly, much of his output I don't find very interesting. But the best is truly worth listening to.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 10, 2018, 04:17:30 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 10, 2018, 02:31:14 PM
No, he's certainly not. He might be part quack, he may be tiresome, he may be all kinds of things. But he's an insanely hard worker; he's got his Mariinsky Orchestra under total control and he CAN create some extraordinary musical experiences.

I really like his work with Rimsky-Korsakov's The Invisible City of Kitezh.

[asin]B00002DF33[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on October 10, 2018, 04:54:23 PM
Quote from: Cato on October 10, 2018, 04:17:30 PM
I really like his work with Rimsky-Korsakov's The Invisible City of Kitezh.

[asin]B00002DF33[/asin]

On the other hand, I thought his conducting in Prokofiev's War & Peace was rather soggy compared to Rostropovich.  But that's a very old recording.  I was, howver, very impressed by the Philips Rite of Spring, another old recording.

We should probably get back to Bruckner... ;)

This transfer got a very positive review on MW:

[asin] B0040T7COE[/asin]

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Oct/Bruckner_sy8_MC109.htm

It does sound sweet, but I have yet to compare it to the Music & Arts transfer.  Tidal link:

https://tidal.com/album/46540717

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 11, 2018, 04:20:52 AM
Quote from: Cato on October 10, 2018, 04:17:30 PM
I really like his work with Rimsky-Korsakov's The Invisible City of Kitezh.


That's a great one!

These are other Gergiev recordings I think are either v.good or downright great:

Rheingold / Mariinsky (https://amzn.to/2Pt2OUY)

Romeo & J. / LSO  (https://amzn.to/2A4qtWi)

Tchaik 1-3, LSO (https://amzn.to/2PtoIYe) (underrated) Best coupled with the Vienna late Tchaik.

"Kirov" Rite of Spring (https://amzn.to/2QJlRum)

Nutcracker (https://amzn.to/2ISFgqc)

Sheherazade (https://amzn.to/2A4567z)

DSCH, The Nose (https://amzn.to/2pMQkfu)

Mahler 5 (https://amzn.to/2ywQVGl) (his best in that cycle)

Fiery Angel (https://amzn.to/2A4AjHX)

Kancheli: Styx (https://amzn.to/2yvfTFX)

Scriabin 1 & 2 (https://amzn.to/2pPqMyx)

Scriabin 3 & 4 (https://amzn.to/2A45jHT) Not as good as Muti but 2nd-best Scriabin Cycle

Ivan the Terrible (https://amzn.to/2PAu9V2)

Prokofiev PCs (https://amzn.to/2A3rii7)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Que on October 14, 2018, 04:26:34 AM
Quote from: Daverz on October 10, 2018, 04:54:23 PM
This transfer got a very positive review on MW:

[asin] B0040T7COE[/asin]

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Oct/Bruckner_sy8_MC109.htm

It does sound sweet, but I have yet to compare it to the Music & Arts transfer.  Tidal link:

https://tidal.com/album/46540717

I own that recording, and can concur on the sound quality!  :)

I'm in general not a fan of Music & Arts' approach.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: SImone Young, Melbourne. #6
Post by: Cato on October 14, 2018, 02:00:08 PM
I came across this by chance:

Simone Young conducting the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra in the Sixth Symphony :

https://www.youtube.com/v/LRi6DwywmOE&feature=share
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: SImone Young, Melbourne. #6
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 17, 2018, 06:41:37 PM
Quote from: Cato on October 14, 2018, 02:00:08 PM
I came across this by chance:

Simone Young conducting the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra in the Sixth Symphony :

https://www.youtube.com/v/LRi6DwywmOE&feature=share
Not wanting to be unfair to the conductor... however i couldn't help thinking of this as a good example of a conductor trying to make Bruckner dramatic instead of simply conducting the music and letting the drama in the music emerge.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on October 18, 2018, 04:05:01 PM
From the WAYL thread.

Quote from: André on October 18, 2018, 04:03:36 PM
(https://d24jnm9llkb1ub.cloudfront.net/icpn/4025438080758/4025438080758-cover-zoom.jpg)

This is Nagano's second recording of the 8th symphony. In 2005 he recorded the familiar revised version (1890, ed. Haas) with the Deutsches Symphonie Orchester, Berlin. At 89 minutes it was about 10 minutes slower than the average interpretation. On his second attempt in 2009 the conductor chose the different, longer, original version from 1887. The extra material is handled in the same way, meaning that the timing of this Munich concert is close to 100 minutes, the longest in the discography - save for a couple of Celibidache performances.

It is quite daring of Nagano to adopt such a spacious view of the work. Tempo markings in the adagio specify feierlich langsam doch nicht schleppend - solemn and slow but without dragging. The wonder is that it does not schlepp even at over 33 minutes. When he conducts in Germany Nagano is often on the slow side compared to his north american performances. He takes advantage of the germanic orchestral tradition, founded on solid, full, low string sound and softer attacks. The vocabulary may be the same, but the speech pattern is quite different. In Bruckner that also means more time to shape long musical paragraphs and cadential phrases. Pauses are longer, too. IOW the music's breathing is very different. It's a totally distinctive reality and I'm glad I can experience it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on October 18, 2018, 05:08:37 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 10, 2018, 02:31:14 PM
No, he's certainly not. He might be part quack, he may be tiresome, he may be all kinds of things. But he's an insanely hard worker; he's got his Mariinsky Orchestra under total control and he CAN create some extraordinary musical experiences. And he's a very quick learner; his Wagner used to be loathsome (I witnessed a dreadful Parsifal in concert); five years later his recording was quite good; his Walkuere is excellent. His early Brucker with Munich, including the above-discussed Fourth was very ho-hum and pointless... but recent Bruckner performances were rather notable. His style tends to wear off on non-Mariisnky Orchestras after a while, but even there he can galvanize them into really spectacular performances. Admittedly, much of his output I don't find very interesting. But the best is truly worth listening to.

Okay, I received Gergiev's B4 today, and played it right away.
On the whole, I like it.
O'Hanlon was correct in saying there is no cosmic mystery here, no great drama.
Thing is, in Gergiev's hands B4 is a totally different thing. It is a very genial reading, bucolic. The horn's are those of a huntsman, and the finale shows us the huntsman returning with enough meat to skin, salt, and feed his family for the coming winter months, welcomed by his family with a hearty meal and a jug of ale.

Okay, maybe that is a little overpoetic, but it's the image my mind produced. If you want a less poetic description, Gergiev's B4 is not the composer contemplating the Four Last Things or similar. It's the composer thinking of the countryside in which he grew up.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on October 18, 2018, 05:47:02 PM
Quote from: JBS on October 18, 2018, 05:08:37 PM
Okay, I received Gergiev's B4 today, and played it right away.
On the whole, I like it.
O'Hanlon was correct in saying there is no cosmic mystery here, no great drama.
Thing is, in Gergiev's hands B4 is a totally different thing. It is a very genial reading, bucolic. The horn's are those of a huntsman, and the finale shows us the huntsman returning with enough meat to skin, salt, and feed his family for the coming winter months, welcomed by his family with a hearty meal and a jug of ale.

Okay, maybe that is a little overpoetic, but it's the image my mind produced. If you want a less poetic description, Gergiev's B4 is not the composer contemplating the Four Last Things or similar. It's the composer thinking of the countryside in which he grew up.

Have you heard the Kertesz?  I'd also call that genial rather than cosmic or mystical.

[asin] B009MP8KP6[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on October 18, 2018, 07:14:17 PM
Quote from: Daverz on October 18, 2018, 05:47:02 PM
Have you heard the Kertesz?  I'd also call that genial rather than cosmic or mystical.

[asin] B009MP8KP6[/asin]

No, I have not. But I just ordered it, so I will be soon enough.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 18, 2018, 10:57:54 PM
Quote from: André on October 18, 2018, 04:05:01 PM
From the WAYL thread.
Quote from: André on October 18, 2018, 04:03:36 PM
(https://d24jnm9llkb1ub.cloudfront.net/icpn/4025438080758/4025438080758-cover-zoom.jpg)

This is Nagano's second recording of the 8th symphony. In 2005 he recorded the familiar revised version (1890, ed. Haas) with the Deutsches Symphonie Orchester, Berlin. At 89 minutes it was about 10 minutes slower than the average interpretation. On his second attempt in 2009 the conductor chose the different, longer, original version from 1887. The extra material is handled in the same way, meaning that the timing of this Munich concert is close to 100 minutes, the longest in the discography - save for a couple of Celibidache performances.

It is quite daring of Nagano to adopt such a spacious view of the work. Tempo markings in the adagio specify feierlich langsam doch nicht schleppend - solemn and slow but without dragging. The wonder is that it does not schlepp even at over 33 minutes. When he conducts in Germany Nagano is often on the slow side compared to his north american performances. He takes advantage of the germanic orchestral tradition, founded on solid, full, low string sound and softer attacks. The vocabulary may be the same, but the speech pattern is quite different. In Bruckner that also means more time to shape long musical paragraphs and cadential phrases. Pauses are longer, too. IOW the music's breathing is very different. It's a totally distinctive reality and I'm glad I can experience it.

I was at that concert. It wasn't AS impressive there -- but I do like the recording. His Ninth, in concert, however, was very special along the same lines. pre-Coupled with Bernd Alois Zimmermann's "Stille & Umkehr". Real 'space music':

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/magnificent-isnt-quite-right-word.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/magnificent-isnt-quite-right-word.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 29, 2018, 11:20:14 AM
My first CD from Hell:

Latest on @classicstoday: On paper, this is great: Bruckner rarities and a favorite artist! The pianism is faultless. But it's a #CDfromHell!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DqsYj2OWoAEyhEM.jpg) (https://t.co/4u778EVxBU)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 05, 2018, 05:32:18 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 29, 2018, 11:20:14 AM
My first CD from Hell:

Latest on @classicstoday: On paper, this is great: Bruckner rarities and a favorite artist! The pianism is faultless. But it's a #CDfromHell!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DqsYj2OWoAEyhEM.jpg) (https://t.co/4u778EVxBU)

SO...what does that mean?! 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 06, 2018, 06:05:22 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 05, 2018, 05:32:18 PM
SO...what does that mean?!

That's called, if you are generous, a teaser.  ;D (Not quite clickbait, because there actually IS something waiting at the other side that makes sense of this.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 06, 2018, 06:49:15 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 06, 2018, 06:05:22 AM
That's called, if you are generous, a teaser.  ;D (Not quite clickbait, because there actually IS something waiting at the other side that makes sense of this.)

So...if you click on it, is maybe   >:D   waitin'  ?    ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on November 06, 2018, 07:14:52 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 06, 2018, 06:49:15 AM
So...if you click on it, is maybe   >:D   waitin'  ?    ;)

If you click it, you meet the CI paywall.  So it remains a teaser for me.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 06, 2018, 10:58:10 PM
Quote from: JBS on November 06, 2018, 07:14:52 AM
If you click it, you meet the CI paywall.  So it remains a teaser for me.

Hmmm... there's that, of course. The bit of trying to carve out a living from what we do. Well, I'll give it away for free, this once, but don't tell anyone else: The music is terrible!

;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on November 07, 2018, 12:18:44 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 06, 2018, 10:58:10 PM
Hmmm... there's that, of course. The bit of trying to carve out a living from what we do. Well, I'll give it away for free, this once, but don't tell anyone else: The music is terrible!

;D

That would explain why that recording has so many world premieres.

I am a bit surprised. An organist is not a pianist but one would expect an organist to have a basic feel for how the notes sound under the fingers of a good keyboardist.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on November 08, 2018, 12:52:00 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/512izKl4DuL.jpg)

Overture in g minor and symphony no 1 (Wienerfassung). Symphony no 3 (1890, ed. By Raettig). No 1 ia a studio recording from 1955, no 3 emanates from a 1953 concert in the Konzerthaus, Vienna.

When I started collecting records around 1972 F. Charles Adler was known for his pioneering Mahler recordings of symphonies 3 and 6. I had no idea he was also a noted brucknerian, although his lifetime association with the Wiener Symphoniker should have tipped me in that direction. At the time these were old recordings  ::) and I much preferred to listen to world class orchestras in good stereo (first discs were Mehta's WP 9th and Barenboim's Chicago 4th).

A contemporaneous cycle of the symphonies with the same orchestra under Volkmar Andreae signally failed to satisfy me. I found it uniformly harsh and aggressive, turning Bruckner's symphonies into musical edifices under siege. Not necessarily a question of tempo (generally fast) so much as a seeming lack of patience and affection for the brucknerian idiom.

Under Adler things improve significantly. Although the sound is certainly unglamorous, it nevertheless encompasses big dynamic levels without problem. The Wiener Symphoniker at the time was THE Bruckner orchestra. Not a question of quality of playing (the Philharmoniker play and sound better), but of familiarity with the brucknerian syntax. Adler definitely has the measure of both the ground plan and the fine details of the scores.

The 3rd was recorded both in concert and in the studio. The concert recording is a volcanic, super intense interpretation. The first movement is much like that of the Eroica under Toscanini and it suits the work to a T. I must have a couple of recordings of the rare Overture in g minor, but this is the first time I listen to it with any kind of interest. An excellent historic set.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 11, 2018, 01:31:55 PM
Quote from: André on November 08, 2018, 12:52:00 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/512izKl4DuL.jpg)

Overture in g minor and symphony no 1 (Wienerfassung). Symphony no 3 (1890, ed. By Raettig). No 1 ia a studio recording from 1955, no 3 emanates from a 1953 concert in the Konzerthaus, Vienna.


Any other performances in this set, other than those you mention? Near complete even?

Quote from: JBS on November 07, 2018, 12:18:44 PM
That would explain why that recording has so many world premieres.

I am a bit surprised. An organist is not a pianist but one would expect an organist to have a basic feel for how the notes sound under the fingers of a good keyboardist.

Yes, NOT AT ALL. That's what I had hoped for, too...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on November 11, 2018, 03:46:45 PM
Contents of the Adler box:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51HTTgVFwVL.jpg)

I have listened to the studio 3rd and the 6th. The 3rd in concert is from another disc. It's a searing performance and I'm happy to have this other slant on the conductor's art. Like a low angle shot (looking up) for additional drama. Sometime this month I'll listen to the 9th. I notice that contrary to the view that prevailed pre-1965, timings indicate a quite spacious performance. Yummy!

Adler has a way of placing rhetorical emphasis on the concluding bars of the finales that I find very satisfying.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on November 29, 2018, 09:42:48 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on April 27, 2017, 01:46:33 PM


Try the Seventh with Herreweghe.


I tried it and I surprisingly didn't just liked it, I LOVE it!  Enjoy it equally to the Munich/Celibidache and Dresden/Jochum 7th.  Three vastly different approaches, and all of them seem to work for me.  Could it simply be that Bruckner wrote not too shabby of a ditty with the 7th?  :-\ :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on November 29, 2018, 09:58:49 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 29, 2018, 09:42:48 AM
I tried it and I surprisingly didn't just liked it, I LOVE it!  Enjoy it equally to the Munich/Celibidache and Dresden/Jochum 7th.  Three vastly different approaches, and all of them seem to work for me.  Could it simply be that Bruckner wrote not too shabby of a ditty with the 7th?  :-\ :)
:) :) :)
Good to see you! 

JBS/Jeffrey Smith/kishnevi
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 29, 2018, 11:31:38 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 29, 2018, 09:42:48 AM
I tried it and I surprisingly didn't just liked it, I LOVE it!  Enjoy it equally to the Munich/Celibidache and Dresden/Jochum 7th.  Three vastly different approaches, and all of them seem to work for me.  Could it simply be that Bruckner wrote not too shabby of a ditty with the 7th?  :-\ :)

The Nut is back! Excellent! Hope you stick around.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on November 30, 2018, 04:59:22 PM

After starting almost 2 years ago, I completed listening to this set today with no 7   :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Ag6JwOGjL._SX522_.jpg)

Only no 4 left me unsatisfied. Better than his boring Hallé version (on IMP) but still sub par. His 9th though is even better than the earlier Minnesota account (on Reference) - inded, I think it's one of the best modern versions. This set is very complete, including as it does the study symphony in f minor and no 0. No finale to # 9 though. Particularly fine IMO are all the early symphonies, up to no 3. Nos 6-9 are all uniformly excellent. Throughout, the Saarbrücken orchestra delivers the goods in spades, and the recorded sound is spacious and well defined. This as satisfying as Rögner & Friends on Brilliant Classics, and better value than most big name sets out there.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on November 30, 2018, 05:51:37 PM
Quote from: André on November 30, 2018, 04:59:22 PM
After starting almost 2 years ago, I completed listening to this set today with no 7   :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Ag6JwOGjL._SX522_.jpg)

Only no 4 left me unsatisfied. Better than his boring Hallé version (on IMP) but still sub par. His 9th though is even better than the earlier Minnesota account (on Reference) - inded, I think it's one of the best modern versions. This set is very complete, including as it does the study symphony in f minor and no 0. No finale to # 9 though. Particularly fine IMO are all the early symphonies, up to no 3. Nos 6-9 are all uniformly excellent. Throughout, the Saarbrücken orchestra delivers the goods in spades, and the recorded sound is spacious and well defined. This as satisfying as Rögner & Friends on Brilliant Classics, and better value than most big name sets out there.

He also did 0, 5 and 7 thru 9 in Japan with the Yomiuri Nippon for Denon.

[asin] B00317COMG[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on December 01, 2018, 05:55:02 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81jOCb5%2BdxL._SY355_.jpg)

Listened to today: symphony no 3 in the Carragan edition of the 1874 version. The notes to the booklet do not explain exactly what is different from the original 1873 version, other than mentioning that it is "unabridged and documents Bruckner's first comprehensive revisions. Interestingly, it is in many places more opulently orchestrated than the original version of 1873."

Anyone has info on what those "comprehensive revisions" may be ?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 02, 2018, 03:00:11 PM
Quote from: André on December 01, 2018, 05:55:02 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81jOCb5%2BdxL._SY355_.jpg)

Listened to today: symphony no 3 in the Carragan edition of the 1874 version. The notes to the booklet do not explain exactly what is different from the original 1873 version, other than mentioning that it is "unabridged and documents Brucknerks first comprehensive revisions. Interestingly, it is in many places more opulently orchestrated than the original version of 1873."

Anyone have info on what those "comprehensive revisions" may be ?


Apparently the article to read is one from c. 30 years ago by a certain Thomas Roeder: I found this reference in a few articles about everything except the 1874 revision!

Quote

Thomas RoederAuf dem Weg zur Bruckner Symphonie: Untersuchungen zu den ersten beiden Fassungen von Anton Bruckners Dritter Symphonie   (Stuttgart, 1987)


"On the Path to the Bruckner Symphony: Investigations on the first two versions of Anton Bruckner's Third Symphony"

I found a summarized reference to a section of that article which might provide a clue toward answering your question:

Quote

In the Third Symphony, as the research of Thomas Röder first revealed, Bruckner added some stretto-like imitation, mostly in the brass, in intensifying and tension-building passages—or what are often called Steigerungen in German—in which he uses imitation and stretto as a means of intensification.  Röder suggests that this must have happened around January 1875, when Bruckner wrote "I have significantly improved the Wagner Symphony (in D minor)."    This would have been at just the time he began drafting the Fifth.



The 1874 revisions might have been the result of private rehearsals of the symphony, which allowed Bruckner to judge his orchestration.

Manfred Wagner, the great Bruckner scholar, was of the opinion that, in general, the earliest versions of the symphonies were to be preferred.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on December 06, 2018, 04:44:44 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81jOCb5%2BdxL._SX522_.jpg)

This box set comprises two different performances of the 4th symphony. The first dates from 2007 and is of the final (1878/1880) revision, in the Nowak edition - no cymbal crash in the finale though. The second performance dates from 2013 and is of the same 1878/1880 version, but with the 1878 so-called Volkfest finale in lieu of the familiar last movement - this time in an edition by "Nowak/Carragan".

Let's dispatch the Volkfest movement first: it's a strange, strange musical contraption. The notes fail to explain what exactly Bruckner had in mind composing it, but describe it as "briefer and catchier". It's also insanely incoherent. I was reminded of these webs spun by Spiders under the influence:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/CaffeinatedSpider.jpg)

On the basis of this recording of the piece, I can only conclude that Anton experimented with bennies around 1878. Since he returned to the original finale in 1880, we can be grateful that he shook the habit.

Anyhow, it helps that the two performances are different enough to make a clear first choice possible. The "normal" version from 2007 is an excellent one, spaciously conceived but rythmically alive, beautifully played and resplendently recorded. I normally don't like that set's churchy acoustics, but here they are perfectly judged, with the long reverb time just this side of acceptable. The coda to the finale is stunning. All told, a success and the best performance of the bunch 00-4 (I'm listening to the symphonies chronologically).

The Volkfest performance is slower in I, faster in II, identical in III. Rythms seem to chug instead of flow, damaging the music's continuity. The symphony seems to suffer from arthritic joints. Also, the orchestra sounds less confident. It's a festival orchestra, its members brought together for the Ebracher Musiksommer every year. The Volkfest version was taped in January, therefore not in the Festival season. IOW it was a one-off gathering for recording purposes only. I think that may account for the fact that the orchestral tissue does not sound as seamless as usual.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on December 07, 2018, 09:05:48 AM
Quote from: André on December 06, 2018, 04:44:44 PM

On the basis of this recording of the piece, I can only conclude that Anton experimented with bennies around 1878. Since he returned to the original finale in 1880, we can be grateful that he shook the habit.


:D  I have a hard time imagining this, but it is funny nevertheless.  Are you sure it is described as "Volkfest" movement?  Or "Tokefest"?  8) :P
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on December 07, 2018, 09:10:51 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 07, 2018, 09:05:48 AM
:D  I have a hard time imagining this, but it is funny nevertheless.  Are you sure it is described as "Volkfest" movement?  Or "Tokefest"?  8) :P

Maybe he hung around with the bad volks ?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Bruckner's Second in the Ukraine
Post by: Cato on December 14, 2018, 02:40:58 PM
I cam across this today completely by chance: too late to hop a plane for Lviv (a.k.a. Lwow and Lemberg):

The Lviv Philharmonic plays Bruckner's Second Symphony: the title of the concert is interesting.

Interview in English:

https://www.youtube.com/v/E1Er1TwZefM

https://philharmonia.lviv.ua/en/event/romantic-mysteria-14-12-2018-19-00/ (https://philharmonia.lviv.ua/en/event/romantic-mysteria-14-12-2018-19-00/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2018, 11:08:05 PM
Am enjoying this.

Have only heard No.9 so far but thought it terrific. One review described these recordings as like Furtwangler in more modern sound:
[asin]B000002SBO[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 15, 2018, 02:15:04 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 14, 2018, 11:08:05 PM
Am enjoying this.

Have only heard No.9 so far but thought it terrific. One review described these recordings as like Furtwangler in more modern sound:
[asin]B000002SBO[/asin]

Carl Schuricht's Bruckner Ninth was the first performance of the work that I had ever heard in the early 1960's, and it remains near the top.  I remember a reviewer calling it something like straight, no-nonsense Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 16, 2018, 12:14:03 PM
 Does anyone know how the Fifth Symphony's theme from bar 55 ff. in the first movement by the cellos and violas (Nowak score, and a theme used later in the finale) came to be used by American college marching bands at football and basketball games? I was at a local high-school game on Friday, and the "pep band" started playing the theme from the Fifth Symphony!   8)   I have heard college bands use it during games broadcast on television in the past 3 years or so.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on December 17, 2018, 01:15:34 AM
It seems a "natural ostinato" phrase. It occurs very similarly in some popsong ("something nations army" is either the band or song name) and became a popular football(soccer) fan chant. At least, I think that is the phrase, I can't look it up right now.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 17, 2018, 08:59:10 PM
Here's an Australian 25 Schilling coin depicting Bruckner from 1962.

(http://www.jleonard.net/Bruck-sch.jpg)

Don't know why they issued this coin in 1962 specifically, what did Bruckner do in 1862... he was still in Linz wasn't he?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Biffo on December 18, 2018, 01:02:08 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on December 17, 2018, 08:59:10 PM
Here's an Australian 25 Schilling coin depicting Bruckner from 1962.

(http://www.jleonard.net/Bruck-sch.jpg)

Don't know why they issued this coin in 1962 specifically, what did Bruckner do in 1862... he was still in Linz wasn't he?

You would probably need to see the other denomination coins. Possibly in 1962 there was an issue showing famous Austrians.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ainsi la nuit on December 18, 2018, 01:46:07 AM
I'm very much looking forward to hearing the 2nd symphony in a concert later this season, in the spring. It's been a hugely Mahlerian season in Helsinki - and while I love both composers almost equally, I feel like a certain balance should exist. Hearing Bruckner's works in a concert is a wonderful experience indeed.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Maestro267 on December 18, 2018, 02:44:29 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 17, 2018, 01:15:34 AM
It seems a "natural ostinato" phrase. It occurs very similarly in some popsong ("something nations army" is either the band or song name) and became a popular football(soccer) fan chant. At least, I think that is the phrase, I can't look it up right now.

I've never thought to compare Bruckner's duplet-triplet rhythmic signature with Seven Nation Army before...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 18, 2018, 03:23:11 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on December 18, 2018, 02:44:29 AM
I've never thought to compare Bruckner's duplet-triplet rhythmic signature with Seven Nation Army before...

Apparently Bruckner's music was consciously appropriated by the rock group, and then migrated to the marching bands:


Quote

This rock single from The White Stripe's album, "Elephant" contains an iconic Guitar riff by lead singer, Jack White. White studied classical music as a student and the opening of Bruckner's Fifth Symphony inspired this riff that has become a rock legend.


https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/recordingswbruckner/thewhitestripessev/ (https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/recordingswbruckner/thewhitestripessev/)


https://www.youtube.com/v/0J2QdDbelmY



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on December 18, 2018, 09:00:37 AM
Quote from: Biffo on December 18, 2018, 01:02:08 AM
You would probably need to see the other denomination coins. Possibly in 1962 there was an issue showing famous Austrians.

Google search suggest Austria issued a famous Austrian coin every year (Mozart, Prince Eugene of Savoy, Grillparzer, etc) but all the others in the series seem to mark a centennial of the person's birth or death.  So the mystery remains.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on December 18, 2018, 12:41:57 PM
List of coins issued by Austria. Bruckner's is a 25 schillings coin.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commemorative_coins_of_Austria (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commemorative_coins_of_Austria)

Some of these seem to be commemorative issues tied to a milestone, as you mention. There's another Bruckner coin (20 schillings) issued in the centenary year, 1996. Some others seem to be randomly issued (Hoffmanstahl, Nicolai) - at least for the uninitiated.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Marching-Band Bruckner!
Post by: Cato on December 20, 2018, 02:26:32 PM
Quote from: Cato on December 18, 2018, 03:23:11 AM
Apparently Bruckner's music was consciously appropriated by the rock group, and then migrated to the marching bands:


https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/recordingswbruckner/thewhitestripessev/ (https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/recordingswbruckner/thewhitestripessev/)


https://www.youtube.com/v/0J2QdDbelmY

Courtesy of my  brother:

https://www.youtube.com/v/nG7c2HoJwDg&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR0H6Q65Su2aGxu3UIdJwx_8GzxOAVdGx-frPSEmLNU0tJB-rqmg6zgpi98
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Marching-Band Bruckner!
Post by: Brahmsian on December 20, 2018, 02:43:45 PM
Quote from: Cato on December 20, 2018, 02:26:32 PM
Courtesy of my  brother:

https://www.youtube.com/v/nG7c2HoJwDg&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR0H6Q65Su2aGxu3UIdJwx_8GzxOAVdGx-frPSEmLNU0tJB-rqmg6zgpi98

That was fun to listen to.  Thank you, and your brother.  :)

Bruckner is all around us, it seems!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 02, 2019, 07:50:14 AM
From the Musical Resolutions topic: for those of you who missed it, stellar member GS Moeller is on a quest for the perfect Bruckner Sixth Symphony performance!

So what would you consider necessary for a "perfect" Bruckner Sixth Symphony ?

My candidates for the perfect one are Eugen Jochum and Guenter Wand.

However, let me remind everyone of the top candidates from the famous Blind Comparison of 4 years ago:


Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 06, 2014, 05:33:27 PM
F2 & F3
Tie for Second Place

F2 - The surprise contender of the comparison.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91ewZrzg95L._SX522_.jpg)

Van Zweden
Netherlands Radio Philharmonic 


What must absolutely be present in such a recording for it to reach perfection?  What must happen - or not happen?  ;)  -  in each movement?

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 06, 2014, 05:38:39 PM
And the winner is...

F1
First Place

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61lW6aYeVsL.jpg)

Sergiu Celibidache
Munich Philharmonic Orchestra


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 02, 2019, 10:21:00 AM
Die sechste ist die keckste, said Anton. Bold, brash, confident, impertinent. I think Bruckner's intent was to advertise the new symphony as one where impetus, strong rythmic accents and bold textures are salient characteristics. Without a good dollop of 'keck' the sixth may sound slightly listless.

My suggestions for the strongest dose of confidence and boldness would be Keilberth (Berlin Phil), Bongartz (Berlin Radio), Stein (Wiener Phil), Rögner (Berlin Radio), Kegel (Leipzig Radio). These interpretations may all sound slightly over the top in the keck department, but that's part and parcel of the symphony's personality.

Haitink (Amsterdam or Dresden), Wand (Cologne) and Jochum (BRSO) stress the work's joy and tonal allure. Klemperer, Skrowaczewski (Saarbrücken), Lopez-Cobos (Cincinnati), Jochum in Dresden, Karajan and Celibidache offer a more apollonian experience without sounding timid or lacking in temperament. More balanced maybe ? Klemperer's mono Amsterdam performance is a real kick in the butt affair, gaunt and brutal - totally different from the familiar Philharmonia EMI - proof that there is no single "right" approach.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 02, 2019, 10:48:38 AM
Are these from the same recordings?
I own the ones with the zen garden cover, but never seen the conductor-in-action covers before.


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51dllg8WjGL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61lW6aYeVsL.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51c7N64Jt6L.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81atmFL9J5L._SL1300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on January 02, 2019, 11:05:01 AM
I cannot really justify getting another 6th. (Have Klemperer/EMI, Celi/EMI, Stein and Gielen, maybe another one I forgot but I am not a Brucknerian and this is plenty for me.)
But wasn't someone praising an elusive Kubelik recording somewhere? I also have heard good things about the Keilberth and Sawallisch/Orfeo.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 02, 2019, 11:08:22 AM
There are various releases of the 6th under Celibidache, all of them dated end of november 1991 - the only extant instance of a Celi B6 around.

In the case of the 8th, they seem to be different performances: 20-10-1990 for the Sony disc and 13-09-1993 for the EMI one. Celibidache recorded the 8th multiple times.

Check this link for details of Celibidache's Bruckner discography:


https://www.abruckner.com/recordings/Celibidache/Sergiu (https://www.abruckner.com/recordings/Celibidache/Sergiu)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 03, 2019, 02:11:56 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 02, 2019, 10:48:38 AM
Are these from the same recordings?
I own the ones with the zen garden cover, but never seen the conductor-in-action covers before.



I want to say that the Sony ones were originally video recordings that were made (sometimes during the same concerts as the recordings that ended up on EMI)... but I'm not 100% on this.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on January 03, 2019, 09:55:33 AM
As I'm getting through the Celibidache/Munich recordings, I am definitely having difficulty with the deliberately slow tempo choices (not all instances, but in some).

However, as pure performance quality goes, it is absolutely top notch.  I've never heard such vivid woodwinds played in Bruckner as I have with the Celibidache/Munich performances.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on January 03, 2019, 09:59:46 AM
Lots of talk about the 6th, and I remember that blind listen comparison, although I pulled out half way through.  Definitely increased my appreciation and love of the 6th.

Perhaps it has changed in recent years, but I read somewhere that the 6th is the least performed of all Bruckner's symphonies?  I'm assuming they mean 1-9.  I was shocked by this!  Even less than 1 and 2, and possibly 3?  Surely this is a trend that will eventually change in the upcoming decades, I would think?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 03, 2019, 10:05:32 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 03, 2019, 02:11:56 AM
I want to say that the Sony ones were originally video recordings that were made (sometimes during the same concerts as the recordings that ended up on EMI)... but I'm not 100% on this.

I don't think they would have separate recording rigs for and audio recording and the audio program of a video production at the same concert. Possibly Sony licensed the video and its lawyers decided that this would cover a CD release of the sound track, which might include independently done editing and mixing of the audio.

Here's another curious example

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51GgjcWhK2L._AC_US436_QL65_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Yje0oKt-L._AC_US436_QL65_.jpg)

The same or different? In this case, the same.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 03, 2019, 10:19:39 AM
Speaking of the 6th, just before retiring last night I put on the beginning of Solti's Chicago recording and, surprisingly, I liked it a lot.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 05, 2019, 04:07:22 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 03, 2019, 10:19:39 AM
Speaking of the 6th, just before retiring last night I put on the beginning of Solti's Chicago recording and, surprisingly, I liked it a lot.

Solti was one of the greats!  He is usually trustworthy: I recall buying his Mahler Eighth Symphony and being a little disappointed not by the conducting, but by the sound engineers fiddling with the knobs at climaxes!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on January 08, 2019, 11:48:57 AM
I enjoyed Nelsons's new recording of Symphony 3, which I think is the first characteristic Bruckner symphony (others may disagree). I think, however, that Szell remains my favourite. One thing irritated me. The booklet was full of photos of Nelsons and none of Bruckner. Wasn't this the story of Bruckner's life - being overshadowed by conductors with large egos (although I'm not sure this is true of Nelsons) who insisted on revisions to the symphonies? By contrast the booklet accompanying the excellent new Chandos recording of Lyatoshynsky's 3rd Symphony featured several photos of the composer Lyatoshynsky and one of the conductor Karabits. I think that this is far preferable as I always like to see photos of the composer as well as the conductor in CD booklets. This may well be of little or no significance to anyone else.

But, as my daughter frequently tells me, I'm turning into a grumpy old man. >:(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 08, 2019, 11:53:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 08, 2019, 11:48:57 AM
I enjoyed Nelsons's new recording of Symphony 3, which I think is the first characteristic Bruckner symphony (others may disagree). I think, however, that Szell remains my favourite. One thing irritated me. The booklet was full of photos of Nelsons and none of Bruckner. Wasn't this the story of Bruckner's life - being overshadowed by conductors with large egos (although I'm not sure this is true of Nelsons) who insisted on revisions to the symphonies? By contrast the booklet accompanying the excellent new Chandos recording of Lyatoshynsky's 3rd Symphony featured several photos of the composer Lyatoshynsky and one of the conductor Karabits. I think that this is far preferable as I always like to see photos of the composer as well as the conductor in CD booklet.

But, as my daughter frequently tells me I'm turning into a grumpy old man. >:(


It doesn't come close to my daughter giving my collection a critical look and telling me I'd better clear it up before I die, because they don't want to get stuck doing it  ??? ???.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on January 08, 2019, 12:00:52 PM
Quote from: André on January 08, 2019, 11:53:23 AM
It doesn't come close to my daughter giving my collection a critical look and telling me I'd better clear it up before I die, because they don't want to get stuck doing it  ??? ???.

Oh, don't worry my friend, I get exactly the same from both my wife and daughter. No doubt as soon as I 'check out' the whole collection will end up in a skip.

On a lighter note, the naughty daughter of my equally obsessional Classical CD friend played a wicked trick on him. A large parcel of new CDs arrived at their house for him. Before he got to the packet she opened it and replaced all the new contents with CDs already in his collection. She then expertly sealed the parcel so that nobody would realise that it had already been opened and took great delight in watching his face as he opened the packet. How evil is that?  >:D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 08, 2019, 12:17:00 PM
Wicked, wicked, indeed !!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on January 08, 2019, 12:45:34 PM
He should disinherit her!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on January 08, 2019, 02:31:03 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 08, 2019, 12:45:34 PM
He should disinherit her!

Hehe or alternatively leave her his entire CD collection (27 copies of 'Parsifal' etc). That would be a good punishment.
8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 08, 2019, 04:03:39 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 08, 2019, 02:31:03 PM
Hehe or alternatively leave her his entire CD collection (27 copies of 'Parsifal' etc). That would be a good punishment.
8)

Cruel and unjust punishment !


(Runs for cover...)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on January 08, 2019, 11:01:32 PM
Quote from: André on January 08, 2019, 04:03:39 PM
Cruel and unjust punishment !


(Runs for cover...)
8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on January 08, 2019, 11:36:17 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 08, 2019, 02:31:03 PM
Hehe or alternatively leave her his entire CD collection (27 copies of 'Parsifal' etc). That would be a good punishment.
8)

Yes, this would be better. The best would be to couple the monetary or real estate heritage she could expect with care of the treasured CD collection. She only gets the manor house if she keeps the CDs and listens to Parsifal at least once per week!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on January 09, 2019, 01:18:25 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 08, 2019, 11:36:17 PM
Yes, this would be better. The best would be to couple the monetary or real estate heritage she could expect with care of the treasured CD collection. She only gets the manor house if she keeps the CDs and listens to Parsifal at least once per week!

Excellent! What a torment that would be.
8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 16, 2019, 07:31:51 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxC60yXXgAA024o.jpg) (https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/1085572927754588160)
"Can you put the #Bruckner #Symphonies on my iPod?" Here's my choice of 00, 0, 1-9 + 'completed 9th'

#iPod #BrucknerCycle. Rules: Every conductor only once. Theme: Slightly off the beaten path excellence.

00) #Skrowaczewski , #DRPOrchester, @oehmsclassics

0) #Schaller, #PhilharmonieFestiva, #HänsslerClassic

1) #Neumann, @Gewandhaus, @BerlinClassics

2) #Stein, @Vienna_Phil, @DeccaClassics

3) #Sanderling, @gewandhausorchester, #BerlinClassics

4) @ManfredHoneck, @Pittsburgh_Symphony, @ReferenceRecordings

5) #Celibidache, @Munich_Philharmonic, #Altus

6) #BernardHaitink, @StaatskapelleDresden, #HänsslerProfil

7) #KarlBöhm, @BRSOrchestra, #Audite

8) #KentNagano, O.d. @BayerischeStaatsoper, #Farao

9, unfinished) @christophvondohnanyi, @philharmonia_orchestra, @signumrecords

9, 4-mvts) #SimonRatle, @BerlinPhil, #EMI/@Warner_Classics
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 16, 2019, 08:11:30 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 16, 2019, 07:31:51 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxC60yXXgAA024o.jpg) (https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/1085572927754588160)
"Can you put the #Bruckner #Symphonies on my iPod?" Here's my choice of 00, 0, 1-9 + 'completed 9th'

#iPod #BrucknerCycle. Rules: Every conductor only once. Theme: Slightly off the beaten path excellence.

00) #Skrowaczewski , #DRPOrchester, @oehmsclassics

0) #Schaller, #PhilharmonieFestiva, #HänsslerClassic

1) #Neumann, @Gewandhaus, @BerlinClassics

2) #Stein, @Vienna_Phil, @DeccaClassics

3) #Sanderling, @gewandhausorchester, #BerlinClassics

4) @ManfredHoneck, @Pittsburgh_Symphony, @ReferenceRecordings

5) #Celibidache, @Munich_Philharmonic, #Altus

6) #BernardHaitink, @StaatskapelleDresden, #HänsslerProfil

7) #KarlBöhm, @BRSOrchestra, #Audite

8) #KentNagano, O.d. @BayerischeStaatsoper, #Farao

9, unfinished) @christophvondohnanyi, @philharmonia_orchestra, @signumrecords

9, 4-mvts) #SimonRatle, @BerlinPhil, #EMI/@Warner_Classics


Do you mean "slightly off the beaten path of excellence" or "excellence that is slightly off the beaten path" ?   0:)


Either way, I believe I understand the choices.  :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 16, 2019, 08:31:03 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 16, 2019, 08:11:30 AM

Do you mean "slightly off the beaten path of excellence" or "excellence that is slightly off the beaten path" ?   0:)


Either way, I believe I understand the choices.  :D

I was aiming at the latter.  ;D

Although not consistently. Rattle's Ninth is the most beaten-path completion there is. But I don't find Bosch/Aachen or LeviTalmi/Oslo that much more convincing.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on January 16, 2019, 08:41:28 AM
I guess my choices would be:

3: Szell
4: Klemperer
5: Haitink
6: Klemperer
7: Knappertsbusch
8: Horenstein
9: Furtwangler/Wand/Rattle
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 16, 2019, 08:53:39 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 16, 2019, 07:31:51 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxC60yXXgAA024o.jpg) (https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/1085572927754588160)
"Can you put the #Bruckner #Symphonies on my iPod?" Here's my choice of 00, 0, 1-9 + 'completed 9th'

#iPod #BrucknerCycle. Rules: Every conductor only once. Theme: Slightly off the beaten path excellence.

00) #Skrowaczewski , #DRPOrchester, @oehmsclassics

0) #Schaller, #PhilharmonieFestiva, #HänsslerClassic

1) #Neumann, @Gewandhaus, @BerlinClassics

2) #Stein, @Vienna_Phil, @DeccaClassics

3) #Sanderling, @gewandhausorchester, #BerlinClassics

4) @ManfredHoneck, @Pittsburgh_Symphony, @ReferenceRecordings

5) #Celibidache, @Munich_Philharmonic, #Altus

6) #BernardHaitink, @StaatskapelleDresden, #HänsslerProfil

7) #KarlBöhm, @BRSOrchestra, #Audite

8) #KentNagano, O.d. @BayerischeStaatsoper, #Farao

9, unfinished) @christophvondohnanyi, @philharmonia_orchestra, @signumrecords

9, 4-mvts) #SimonRatle, @BerlinPhil, #EMI/@Warner_Classics

The only ones I don't have are the Honeck 4th and the Dohannyi 9th. I wouldn't choose many as top choices though  0:).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on January 16, 2019, 08:58:38 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 16, 2019, 07:31:51 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxC60yXXgAA024o.jpg) (https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/1085572927754588160)
"Can you put the #Bruckner #Symphonies on my iPod?" Here's my choice of 00, 0, 1-9 + 'completed 9th'

#iPod #BrucknerCycle. Rules: Every conductor only once. Theme: Slightly off the beaten path excellence.

00) #Skrowaczewski , #DRPOrchester, @oehmsclassics

0) #Schaller, #PhilharmonieFestiva, #HänsslerClassic

1) #Neumann, @Gewandhaus, @BerlinClassics

2) #Stein, @Vienna_Phil, @DeccaClassics

3) #Sanderling, @gewandhausorchester, #BerlinClassics

4) @ManfredHoneck, @Pittsburgh_Symphony, @ReferenceRecordings

5) #Celibidache, @Munich_Philharmonic, #Altus

6) #BernardHaitink, @StaatskapelleDresden, #HänsslerProfil

7) #KarlBöhm, @BRSOrchestra, #Audite

8) #KentNagano, O.d. @BayerischeStaatsoper, #Farao

9, unfinished) @christophvondohnanyi, @philharmonia_orchestra, @signumrecords

9, 4-mvts) #SimonRatle, @BerlinPhil, #EMI/@Warner_Classics

Nice selection!  Though I haven't heard the Celibicache (I'll have to set a day aside ;) ), the Nagano, and that particular Bohm recording.  I have Bohm's studio recording and a live recording with the VPO on 6/9/76 (Andante).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 16, 2019, 09:22:33 AM
Quote from: André on January 16, 2019, 08:53:39 AM
The only ones I don't have are the Honeck 4th and the Dohannyi 9th. I wouldn't choose many as top choices though  0:).

I didn't quite mean for this to be a "Top Choices/One Conductor per" kind of list, I suppose...

...but that would be interesting, too.

I would have to hone in on what some *absolute* favorites are and then work it out from there.

00 ???
0 Skrowaczewski
1 Barenboim/BPh
2 Blomstedt/Leipzig (not sure)
3 Celi/MPhil [alt. ...???]
4 Honeck/Pittsburgh
5 ____ [alt. Celi/MPhil, Jochum/BRSO, Wand/Cologne]
6 Haitink/Dresden [alt Norrington/SWR, Celi/MPhil]
7 Böhm, BRSO [alt. Haitink/CSO, Karajan/WPh, Jochum/Dresden]
8 Wand/BPh, [Karajan/WPh, Wand/NDR,Lübeck]
9 XXX [alt. Barenboim/BPh, Wand/BPh]

(off to the theater now; more later)

Quote from: Daverz on January 16, 2019, 08:58:38 AM
Nice selection!  Though I haven't heard the Celibicache (I'll have to set a day aside ;) ), the Nagano, and that particular Bohm recording.  I have Bohm's studio recording and a live recording with the VPO on 6/9/76 (Andante).

reviewed it (B7) here, I seem to remember:
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/05/b7-solti-haitink-bhm-co.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/05/b7-solti-haitink-bhm-co.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 16, 2019, 10:32:41 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 16, 2019, 09:22:33 AM
I didn't quite mean for this to be a "Top Choices/One Conductor per" kind of list, I suppose...

...but that would be interesting, too.

I would have to hone in on what some *absolute* favorites are and then work it out from there.

1 Barenboim 1
2
3 Celi

Haitink 6 [alt Norrington, Celi]
Wand 8
[alt. Barenboim/BPh]


(off to the theater now; more later)

reviewed it (B7) here, I seem to remember:
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/05/b7-solti-haitink-bhm-co.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/05/b7-solti-haitink-bhm-co.html)

Would you include the String Quintet in its string orchestra version as a quasi-symphony?  :D

I am listening to it right now via YouTube.

I have not yet heard the complete orchestration by Gerd Schaller: any comments from those who have heard it?

[asin]B07FCS4XR9[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 16, 2019, 10:49:46 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 16, 2019, 10:32:41 AM
Would you include the String Quintet in its string orchestra version as a quasi-symphony?  :D

I am listening to it right now via YouTube.

I have not yet heard the complete orchestration by Gerd Schaller: any comments from those who have heard it?

[asin]B07FCS4XR9[/asin]

My mind just made a connection!   8)



(http://www.immusicmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/WATC-download-final-1.jpg)

Coincidence?  Should we be worried?  :o   ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 16, 2019, 12:46:47 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 16, 2019, 10:32:41 AM
Would you include the String Quintet in its string orchestra version as a quasi-symphony?  :D

I am listening to it right now via YouTube.

I have not yet heard the complete orchestration by Gerd Schaller: any comments from those who have heard it?

[asin]B07FCS4XR9[/asin]

Quote from: Cato on January 16, 2019, 10:49:46 AM
My mind just made a connection!   8)



(http://www.immusicmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/WATC-download-final-1.jpg)

Coincidence?  Should we be worried?  :o   ;)

Schaller's orchestration is available on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/v/5w6OLLqvNac&list=OLAK5uy_mRiA4eI-g_eILh0sMqo98xhDDMxmURY2I
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 17, 2019, 12:49:42 PM
I revisited the slow movement today, and intend to hear the entire work again:

Symphony "00" in F minor.  More than a "study symphony"!


https://www.youtube.com/v/eNlbYSgzDkQ
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on January 18, 2019, 06:22:58 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 16, 2019, 10:49:46 AM
My mind just made a connection!   8)



(http://www.immusicmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/WATC-download-final-1.jpg)

Coincidence?  Should we be worried?  :o   ;)

That is awesome beyond words!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 19, 2019, 05:21:52 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 18, 2019, 06:22:58 AM
That is awesome beyond words!

:D

In case anyone missed it...

Quote from: Cato on January 16, 2019, 10:32:41 AM

[asin]B07FCS4XR9[/asin]

Quote from: Cato on January 16, 2019, 10:49:46 AM
My mind just made a connection!   8)



(http://www.immusicmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/WATC-download-final-1.jpg)

Coincidence?  Should we be worried?  :o   ;)

On a somewhat deeper level...Gerd Schaller's completion of the Ninth Symphony is available on a DVD: I have neither seen nor heard it.  Two opinions on Amazon give the completion a 5-star and a 4-star, with the 5-star saying it is a spiritual experience and the 4-star saying it is a "not a Christian" finale as Bruckner would have composed.

Any thoughts?

https://www.abruckner.com/store/dvdsbruckner/symphony-no-9-with-schaller-finale-gerd-schaller--/ (https://www.abruckner.com/store/dvdsbruckner/symphony-no-9-with-schaller-finale-gerd-schaller--/)



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 19, 2019, 06:44:44 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 19, 2019, 05:21:52 AM
:D

In case anyone missed it...

On a somewhat deeper level...Gerd Schaller's completion of the Ninth Symphony is available on a DVD: I have neither seen nor heard it.  Two opinions on Amazon give the completion a 5-star and a 4-star, with the 5-star saying it is a spiritual experience and the 4-star saying it is a "not a Christian" finale as Bruckner would have composed.

Any thoughts?

I have the Profil box and listened to the Schaller completion once, about a year ago. As I am proceeding chronologically and slowly, it might take another year before I get there again. My first thoughts were that Schaller went into overdrive recycling themes from earlier in the work and from previous symphonies. Neither positive nor negative, just an impression. It might fall into place more naturally upon further acquaintance.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 19, 2019, 01:23:38 PM
Quote from: André on January 19, 2019, 06:44:44 AM
I have the Profil box and listened to the Schaller completion once, about a year ago. As I am proceeding chronologically and slowly, it might take another year before I get there again. My first thoughts were that Schaller went into overdrive recycling themes from earlier in the work and from previous symphonies. Neither positive nor negative, just an impression. It might fall into place more naturally upon further acquaintance.
How is that box by the way? I see it for pretty cheap here:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Anton-Bruckner-Complete-Symphonies-18-CD-Brand-New-Sealed-Package-Ships-Next-Day/323585993317?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D37ddaac12f644d2fa78266e703bffa27%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D283129738516%26itm%3D323585993317&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ab9a27a54-1c38-11e9-9e61-74dbd180caf9%7Cparentrq%3A683567541680ac1c5ccd29aefffe43c6%7Ciid%3A1
(https://www.ebay.com/itm/Anton-Bruckner-Complete-Symphonies-18-CD-Brand-New-Sealed-Package-Ships-Next-Day/323585993317?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D37ddaac12f644d2fa78266e703bffa27%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D283129738516%26itm%3D323585993317&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ab9a27a54-1c38-11e9-9e61-74dbd180caf9%7Cparentrq%3A683567541680ac1c5ccd29aefffe43c6%7Ciid%3A1)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 19, 2019, 01:48:19 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 19, 2019, 01:23:38 PM
How is that box by the way? I see it for pretty cheap here:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Anton-Bruckner-Complete-Symphonies-18-CD-Brand-New-Sealed-Package-Ships-Next-Day/323585993317?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D37ddaac12f644d2fa78266e703bffa27%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D283129738516%26itm%3D323585993317&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ab9a27a54-1c38-11e9-9e61-74dbd180caf9%7Cparentrq%3A683567541680ac1c5ccd29aefffe43c6%7Ciid%3A1
(https://www.ebay.com/itm/Anton-Bruckner-Complete-Symphonies-18-CD-Brand-New-Sealed-Package-Ships-Next-Day/323585993317?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D37ddaac12f644d2fa78266e703bffa27%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D283129738516%26itm%3D323585993317&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ab9a27a54-1c38-11e9-9e61-74dbd180caf9%7Cparentrq%3A683567541680ac1c5ccd29aefffe43c6%7Ciid%3A1)

I'm about 2/3 of the way through it. So far no cigars. There are 2 recording locations, one very good, the other not (excessive reverberation - a popular idea for Bruckner that fails to work here).  I find the lesser played/recorded symphonies faring better (00,0), and one of the 4ths is very good indeed. I was disappointed with 2, 6 and 7.

One might think it ultra complete at first glance, but it is not. There are 2 versions of no 1 (Linz and Vienna), 2 of no 4 (both using the familiar Nowak version, but one using the 'Volkfest' finale) and 2 of no 9 - both using a completed finale, one by Carragan, one by Schaller. We get early versions of 2, 3, an 'interim' version of 1888 which is neither the 1887 or 1890 versions. IOW it's the chef's choice, with rather jarring inconsistencies (early versions of 2 and 3 only, but no early version of no 4 - why?).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 19, 2019, 06:46:47 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 19, 2019, 01:23:38 PM
How is that box by the way? I see it for pretty cheap here:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Anton-Bruckner-Complete-Symphonies-18-CD-Brand-New-Sealed-Package-Ships-Next-Day/323585993317?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D37ddaac12f644d2fa78266e703bffa27%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D283129738516%26itm%3D323585993317&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ab9a27a54-1c38-11e9-9e61-74dbd180caf9%7Cparentrq%3A683567541680ac1c5ccd29aefffe43c6%7Ciid%3A1
(https://www.ebay.com/itm/Anton-Bruckner-Complete-Symphonies-18-CD-Brand-New-Sealed-Package-Ships-Next-Day/323585993317?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D37ddaac12f644d2fa78266e703bffa27%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D283129738516%26itm%3D323585993317&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ab9a27a54-1c38-11e9-9e61-74dbd180caf9%7Cparentrq%3A683567541680ac1c5ccd29aefffe43c6%7Ciid%3A1)

You didn't ask me, but I own Schaller's set of Symphonies Nos. 4, 7, & 9 and didn't think the performances were anything special. I'll freely admit that I'm rather spoilt by performances that have come well before Schaller, so he's up against some stiff competition.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Kna on January 20, 2019, 10:02:06 AM
Hello gentlemen,

I had the pleasure to attend the concerts in Ebrach where G.Schaller and the Philharmonia Festiva played the 9th with the Finale by the maestro, once in 2016 and once in 2018 (slightly revised). And indeed, for me it was a kind of spiritual experience, something unforgettable. Regarding the Wiener Fassung of the 1st symphony, they will play it (and probably record it) this year in may in Bad-Kissingen.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 20, 2019, 02:00:08 PM
Hi Kna, pleased to meet you. One of my internet buddies had the same experience as you with the Ebrach concerts - I recall him writing about the 2016 9th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 20, 2019, 02:03:07 PM
Quote from: Kna on January 20, 2019, 10:02:06 AM
Hello gentlemen,

I had the pleasure to attend the concerts in Ebrach where G.Schaller and the Philharmonia Festiva played the 9th with the Finale by the maestro, once in 2016 and once in 2018 (slightly revised). And indeed, for me it was a kind of spiritual experience, something unforgettable. Regarding the Wiener Fassung of the 1st symphony, they will play it (and probably record it) this year in may in Bad-Kissingen.

Greetings, Kna(ppertsbusch ? )!

Many thanks for your comments! 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey" Jochum/Concertgebouw 5th: Recording of the Century?
Post by: Cato on January 22, 2019, 03:23:21 PM
A Bruckner website on FaceBook offered this recently:

https://www.youtube.com/v/6J4IDfajZHw&feature=share

I was wondering about the designation as "Recording of the Century."  Is it the opinion of the YouTube publisher, or does anyone here know if the recording received such an award from a record magazine, or a group of musicologists, or...?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey" Jochum/Concertgebouw 5th: Recording of the Century?
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 22, 2019, 03:29:46 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 22, 2019, 03:23:21 PM
A Bruckner website on FaceBook offered this recently:

https://www.youtube.com/v/6J4IDfajZHw&feature=share

I was wondering about the designation as "Recording of the Century."  Is it the opinion of the YouTube publisher, or does anyone here know if the recording received such an award from a record magazine, or a group of musicologists, or...?
This is the cd on my shelf:
[asin]B000051YD8[/asin]
Looks like part of the Philips 50 Great Recordings series.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on January 22, 2019, 06:37:20 PM
The one with the RCO, recorded by Tahra, is from December 1986, and is far superior to the Philips.  It is one of the best B5s I have heard.  One reason is that it does not have the overly reverberant sonics of the abbey in which the Philips version was recorded.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 23, 2019, 03:49:04 AM
Quote from: merlin on January 22, 2019, 06:37:20 PM
The one with the RCO, recorded by Tahra, is from December 1986, and is far superior to the Philips.  It is one of the best B5s I have heard.  One reason is that it does not have the overly reverberant sonics of the abbey in which the Philips version was recorded.

Many thanks for the review!

I found an announcement that Christian Thielemann will perform all* the Bruckner symphonies in European cathedrals in a 5-year project with the Vienna Philharmonic.

See:

https://slippedisc.com/2019/01/vienna-phil-signs-thielemann-for-5-year-bruckner-cycle/ (https://slippedisc.com/2019/01/vienna-phil-signs-thielemann-for-5-year-bruckner-cycle/)


* Whether that includes the F minor Study Symphony and Die Nullte is unclear.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 23, 2019, 03:44:30 PM
Quote from: merlin on January 22, 2019, 06:37:20 PM
The one with the RCO, recorded by Tahra, is from December 1986, and is far superior to the Philips.  It is one of the best B5s I have heard.  One reason is that it does not have the overly reverberant sonics of the abbey in which the Philips version was recorded.

+ 1

Indeed, it's one of the greatest Bruckner performances ever made - along with 8 an 9 from the same decade.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 23, 2019, 04:47:05 PM
Quote from: merlin on January 22, 2019, 06:37:20 PM
The one with the RCO, recorded by Tahra, is from December 1986, and is far superior to the Philips.  It is one of the best B5s I have heard.  One reason is that it does not have the overly reverberant sonics of the abbey in which the Philips version was recorded.


Quote from: André on January 23, 2019, 03:44:30 PM
+ 1

Indeed, it's one of the greatest Bruckner performances ever made
- along with 8 an 9 from the same decade.

As I wrote under What Are You Listening To, yes, I heard this performance today.  I discovered that my downloading service offered it, and WOW!!!

Am goettlichsten!!!   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 23, 2019, 06:09:16 PM
My experience with Jochum has been mixed. His early recordings in Hamburg and Munich (nos 8 and 9 on DGG) are formidable, among the best from the mono era. His stereo cycle on DG is mostly excellent, but a bit light of gait and rather contrived in symphonies 4 and 9. His second cycle in Dresden has never appealed to me. I find the sound shrill and unfocused, and the performances unsettled. Nos 3, 6 and 8 are quite good nevertheless.

Then in the 1980s he started revisiting his favourites, symphonies 5,7, 8 and 9. We have recordings from Amsterdam (5 and 8 ), Munich (7 and 9, with the Philharmonic, not the BRSO) and Bamberg (8, 2 different performances). In those, Jochum seems to have found that elusive ideal: magisterial grandeur, hugely dramatic vistas and a well of emotion that is rarely found in Bruckner. The Amsterdam 5th, Bamberg 8th and Munich 9th are in a class of their own. The others are almost as great.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on January 23, 2019, 07:39:55 PM
Very well stated, André, and I wholeheartedly concur.  I have not yet heard his later B7 with MPO, but the ones you mention are at the very top. 

IIRC, one of the Bamberg B8s was recorded in Tokyo and the other at St. Florian, and his daughter selected the MPO B9 as her dad's best performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 24, 2019, 08:22:57 AM
Coming up in March:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71W757pw7DL._SX522_.jpg)

The current release of these performances in the Haitink Symphony Edition takes 9 discs. It will be stretched to 10, presumably by uncoupling the first 3 symphonies (0-2 occupying 2 discs, with the 1st split between discs), and adding the Te Deum as a filler to one of the shorter discs.

Unfortunately missing will be the RCOA remakes of 7-9, which is a pity. The later recordings of 7 and 9 are definite improvements over their earlier counterparts, both in terms of interpretation and sound. As for the 8th, Haitink had changed his vision quite radically, adding almost 12 minutes to its duration. All three later performances are worth reissuing, IMO.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 24, 2019, 08:36:36 AM
Couldn't they just have made a HAITINK-DECCA-BRUCKNER box -- with all the Vienna and Berlin recordings, too?  ;D But then they couldn't have used that neat cover, I suppose.

[Berlin is Mahler, of course, not Bruckner]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on January 24, 2019, 09:09:24 AM
I just unearthed a Jochum/RCO B7 recording from a performance on 17 September 1986 in Tokyo on Altus.  How does this compare with the one you cited with the MPO, Andre?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 24, 2019, 09:29:08 AM
I don't know that Altus recording of the 7th. The Weitblick one I have is from Nov 8, 1979 and was recorded in the Herkulessaal. The timings point to a broader concept: 76 minutes in Tokyo vs 69 in Munich, with a 5minute difference for the first 2 movements.

Concerning the Bamberg 8th: the two versions come from different time/places: September 15, 1982 in the NHK Hall as you mentioned and June 12, 1982 from St-Florian Abbey. I think the latter has the advantage in terms of the depth of musical experience, but it depends what one expects.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 24, 2019, 11:21:16 AM
Quote from: André on January 23, 2019, 06:09:16 PM
My experience with Jochum has been mixed. His early recordings in Hamburg and Munich (nos 8 and 9 on DGG) are formidable, among the best from the mono era. His stereo cycle on DG is mostly excellent, but a bit light of gait and rather contrived in symphonies 4 and 9. His second cycle in Dresden has never appealed to me. I find the sound shrill and unfocused, and the performances unsettled. Nos 3, 6 and 8 are quite good nevertheless.

Then in the 1980s he started revisiting his favourites, symphonies 5,7, 8 and 9. We have recordings from Amsterdam (5 and 8 ), Munich (7 and 9, with the Philharmonic, not the BRSO) and Bamberg (8, 2 different performances). In those, Jochum seems to have found that elusive ideal: magisterial grandeur, hugely dramatic vistas and a well of emotion that is rarely found in Bruckner. The Amsterdam 5th, Bamberg 8th and Munich 9th are in a class of their own. The others are almost as great.

I agree that the early mono recordings on DG are superb. I was turned off the stereo DGG cycle by the audio quality. I started with the 8th symphony and the balance in the first movement was crazy, with the first trumpet absurdly loud. I generally like the EMI/Dresden cycle, but have never heard any of his later recordings.

My preferred Bruckner is Haitink/Concertgebouw, Chailly/Concertgebouw, Karajan/WPO, Karajan/Berlin, I'm not sure in what order.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on January 24, 2019, 01:27:36 PM
Meanwhile via the EMI Karajan Remastered set, I am listening to the best B8 I can remember hearing.
[asin]B00K0PDQGA[/asin]
Earlier incarnations, now more or less unavailable via Amazon US
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51St8hae-fL.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71nIq8x3fAL.jpg)
Sonics are not impressive...dry and compressed to my ears..but the interpretation is to live for.

I have a similar feeling regarding his EMI B4
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: merlin on January 25, 2019, 07:34:14 AM
Quote from: André on January 24, 2019, 09:29:08 AM
I don't know that Altus recording of the 7th. The Weitblick one I have is from Nov 8, 1979 and was recorded in the Herkulessaal. The timings point to a broader concept: 76 minutes in Tokyo vs 69 in Munich, with a 5minute difference for the first 2 movements.

Concerning the Bamberg 8th: the two versions come from different time/places: September 15, 1982 in the NHK Hall as you mentioned and June 12, 1982 from St-Florian Abbey. I think the latter has the advantage in terms of the depth of musical experience, but it depends what one expects.

I listened to the Tokyo Jochum/RCO B7 last night.  It was indeed much more expansive than anything else I have heard from him, but with lots of depth and emotion.  The SQ was good as well.  His interpretation reminded me of Giulini.

I only have the Bamberg St. Florian B8 in mp3 format (it was posted at abruckner.com in the downloads of the month section), and it is definitely lesser SQ than the Tokyo recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 27, 2019, 09:09:20 AM
Interview about Bruckner. Probably so basic that few on this forum would learn anything new.

https://avemariaradio.net/audio-archive/church-and-culture-january-26-2019-hour-2/?fbclid=IwAR3ilhtj28aJdY4JT9NJ33v3ICWiC3t8S7wj6G0E27zD82lmhukvVUh8j4c (https://avemariaradio.net/audio-archive/church-and-culture-january-26-2019-hour-2/?fbclid=IwAR3ilhtj28aJdY4JT9NJ33v3ICWiC3t8S7wj6G0E27zD82lmhukvVUh8j4c)

Latest interview on Ave Maria Radio where Deal Wyatt Hudson invited me to speak about #Bruckner. Which of course is a thing I love to do.

Excerpts from Symphonies 3, 7, 9 (w/ Rémy Ballot/ GRAMOLA) & 5 (Jochum/ Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, 1986) & the Os justi Motet.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 27, 2019, 12:53:23 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 27, 2019, 09:09:20 AM
Interview about Bruckner. Probably so basic that few on this forum would learn anything new.

https://avemariaradio.net/audio-archive/church-and-culture-january-26-2019-hour-2/?fbclid=IwAR3ilhtj28aJdY4JT9NJ33v3ICWiC3t8S7wj6G0E27zD82lmhukvVUh8j4c (https://avemariaradio.net/audio-archive/church-and-culture-january-26-2019-hour-2/?fbclid=IwAR3ilhtj28aJdY4JT9NJ33v3ICWiC3t8S7wj6G0E27zD82lmhukvVUh8j4c)

Latest interview on Ave Maria Radio where Deal Wyatt Hudson invited me to speak about #Bruckner. Which of course is a thing I love to do.

Excerpts from Symphonies 3, 7, 9 (w/ Rémy Ballot/ GRAMOLA) & 5 (Jochum/ Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, 1986) & the Os justi Motet.

Very cool, Jens. 8) You're a star! Keep 'em coming my man.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 27, 2019, 04:14:52 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 27, 2019, 12:53:23 PM
Very cool, Jens. 8) You're a star! Keep 'em coming my man.

8) ;D

All thanks to Deal Hudson's absolutely shameless exaggeration.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on January 27, 2019, 04:22:49 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 27, 2019, 04:14:52 PM
8) ;D

All thanks to Deal Hudson's absolutely shameless exaggeration.

:D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Kna on January 29, 2019, 08:19:03 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 27, 2019, 09:09:20 AM
Interview about Bruckner. Probably so basic that few on this forum would learn anything new.

https://avemariaradio.net/audio-archive/church-and-culture-january-26-2019-hour-2/?fbclid=IwAR3ilhtj28aJdY4JT9NJ33v3ICWiC3t8S7wj6G0E27zD82lmhukvVUh8j4c (https://avemariaradio.net/audio-archive/church-and-culture-january-26-2019-hour-2/?fbclid=IwAR3ilhtj28aJdY4JT9NJ33v3ICWiC3t8S7wj6G0E27zD82lmhukvVUh8j4c)

Latest interview on Ave Maria Radio where Deal Wyatt Hudson invited me to speak about #Bruckner. Which of course is a thing I love to do.

Excerpts from Symphonies 3, 7, 9 (w/ Rémy Ballot/ GRAMOLA) & 5 (Jochum/ Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, 1986) & the Os justi Motet.

Listened to it. I liked the "That's just a wise man's summation of another wise composer's great work..." about Jochum's 5th in Amsterdam (1986). Well said Jens ! (And incidentally, I'm on the two pictures of the 2018 Sankt-Florian concert you posted some months ago  ;D)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 30, 2019, 03:34:41 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 27, 2019, 09:09:20 AM
Interview about Bruckner. Probably so basic that few on this forum would learn anything new.

https://avemariaradio.net/audio-archive/church-and-culture-january-26-2019-hour-2/?fbclid=IwAR3ilhtj28aJdY4JT9NJ33v3ICWiC3t8S7wj6G0E27zD82lmhukvVUh8j4c (https://avemariaradio.net/audio-archive/church-and-culture-january-26-2019-hour-2/?fbclid=IwAR3ilhtj28aJdY4JT9NJ33v3ICWiC3t8S7wj6G0E27zD82lmhukvVUh8j4c)

Latest interview on Ave Maria Radio where Deal Wyatt Hudson invited me to speak about #Bruckner. Which of course is a thing I love to do.

Excerpts from Symphonies 3, 7, 9 (w/ Rémy Ballot/ GRAMOLA) & 5 (Jochum/ Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, 1986) & the Os justi Motet.

Excellent, Jens Laurson!!!

For those who would like to hear the Os Iusti complete...


An excellent performance with the score:

https://www.youtube.com/v/ov-OAmpcRfw



And, in an older recording with a large choir and recorded during a concert...

Here is (Sankt)*  Eugen   0:)    Jochum  (The Os Iusti is at 3:33, but all 4 works are masterpieces.)

https://www.youtube.com/v/RLb7LcizXbY


* We all know it is just a matter of time: Vatican City works slowly!  ;)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 30, 2019, 05:07:15 AM
Quote from: Kna on January 29, 2019, 08:19:03 AM
Listened to it. I liked the "That's just a wise man's summation of another wise composer's great work..." about Jochum's 5th in Amsterdam (1986). Well said Jens !

Thanks kindly.

Quote(And incidentally, I'm on the two pictures of the 2018 Sankt-Florian concert you posted some months ago  ;D)

Oh boy... are you going to get me via the European Union General Data Protection Regulation? What do I owe you?  ???

[Next time wave and we'll have a beer!]

Quote from: Cato on January 30, 2019, 03:34:41 AM
Excellent, Jens Laurson!!!


That's "universally adored Mega-famous critic Jens Laurson", to you, sir!  :P :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 30, 2019, 05:16:41 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 30, 2019, 05:07:15 AM

That's "universally adored Mega-famous critic Jens Laurson", to you, sir!  :P :D



(http://hua.umf.maine.edu/China/Xian/Shaanxi_History/images/Song_960_7367w.jpg)



Yes, Master!!!
   :D   8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 30, 2019, 06:40:20 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 30, 2019, 05:07:15 AM
Thanks kindly.

Oh boy... are you going to get me via the European Union General Data Protection Regulation? What do I owe you?  ???

[Next time wave and we'll have a beer!]

That's "universally adored Mega-famous critic Jens Laurson", to you, sir!  :P :D

Make sure it's Kronenbourg  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 13, 2019, 03:25:09 PM
I was just listening to Helgoland and it occurred to me that it would be much easier to listen to it as one of Bruckner's last works if someone performed it without the chorus. There isn't an orchestral only recording but has it ever been performed thus?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on February 14, 2019, 02:10:19 AM
Quote from: André on January 30, 2019, 06:40:20 AM
Make sure it's Kronenbourg  ;)

I don't think they serve that at St. Florian.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on February 14, 2019, 09:52:25 AM
Probably not, but it's a brand Kna probably knows very well  ;).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on February 14, 2019, 12:36:19 PM
Quote from: André on January 24, 2019, 08:22:57 AM
Coming up in March:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71W757pw7DL._SX522_.jpg)

The current release of these performances in the Haitink Symphony Edition takes 9 discs. It will be stretched to 10, presumably by uncoupling the first 3 symphonies (0-2 occupying 2 discs, with the 1st split between discs), and adding the Te Deum as a filler to one of the shorter discs.

Unfortunately missing will be the RCOA remakes of 7-9, which is a pity. The later recordings of 7 and 9 are definite improvements over their earlier counterparts, both in terms of interpretation and sound. As for the 8th, Haitink had changed his vision quite radically, adding almost 12 minutes to its duration. All three later performances are worth reissuing, IMO.
Looks fabulous.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Os Iusti Freezes Latin Student!
Post by: Cato on February 18, 2019, 04:49:09 AM
Last week I had my best 8th Grade Latin II class (there are two not quite on the same level of knowledge and maturity) translate the text of the Os Iusti (Saint Jerome's translation of Psalm 36) and then we heard Bruckner's motet.

https://www.youtube.com/v/ov-OAmpcRfw

The general reaction was one of stunned awe, and one of the boys exclaimed: "Wow!  I actually got chills listening to that!"

Yes, Bruckner can do that!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 02, 2019, 06:07:07 PM
The March issue of the Bruckner Journal lists that month's new/reissued recordings. Among those is Mehta's LAPO performance of the 8th symphony on Decca. I intend to buy it. Hopefully it will be available at a reasonable price.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on March 02, 2019, 09:20:29 PM
Quote from: André on March 02, 2019, 06:07:07 PM
The March issue of the Bruckner Journal lists that month's new/reissued recordings. Among those is Mehta's LAPO performance of the 8th symphony on Decca. I intend to buy it. Hopefully it will be available at a reasonable price.

Could this be the reissue you're referring to?

[asin] B07J33Q51M[/asin]

This is a Japanese reissue.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: GioCar on March 03, 2019, 12:26:44 AM
Quote from: André on March 02, 2019, 06:07:07 PM
The March issue of the Bruckner Journal lists that month's new/reissued recordings. Among those is Mehta's LAPO performance of the 8th symphony on Decca. I intend to buy it. Hopefully it will be available at a reasonable price.

That reminds me that next May I'll have in my La Scala subscription Mehta with the same piece.
http://www.teatroallascala.org/en/season/2018-2019/concert/symphony-concert/zubin-mehta-filarmonica-scala.html
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 03, 2019, 03:51:00 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 02, 2019, 09:20:29 PM
Could this be the reissue you're referring to?

[asin] B07J33Q51M[/asin]

This is a Japanese reissue.

That's the one. It came out some 3-4 months ago. I tried twice to get it, the merchant canceled twice. Maybe a larger distribution base will help.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 18, 2019, 04:19:56 PM
In Holland, a Bruckner Festival offering the Originalfassungen of Symphonies III, IV, and VIII.

By a certain Frank Teunissen, Bruckner advocate:

Quote

After having talked to 17 conductors, 6 Festivals, 7 concert venues, 12 orchestras and countless influencers, it WILL happen: The Bruckner Festival, 'Ongehoord Bruckner'.*
For the first time in Dutch concert history, in one weekend, 3 Orchestras will perform Bruckner's First Versions of Symphonies nr. 3, 4 and 8. Where? The Muziekgebouw Aan 't IJ Amsterdam. When? 8-10 November 2019.
Why would you come? These First Versions are SO recognizably different, rougher and more romantic than the always played later versions; you will be surprised how avant-garde Bruckner is. Come and Listen!


* Unheard
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 18, 2019, 06:35:54 PM
Quote from: André on March 03, 2019, 03:51:00 AM
That's the one. It came out some 3-4 months ago. I tried twice to get it, the merchant canceled twice. Maybe a larger distribution base will help.
IT is also in this box:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71PfK19LyFL._SS500_.jpg)

which might be easier to find than the Japanese release. The box is available free if you Amazon Music.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on March 18, 2019, 06:42:13 PM
Quote from: André on March 03, 2019, 03:51:00 AM
That's the one. It came out some 3-4 months ago. I tried twice to get it, the merchant canceled twice. Maybe a larger distribution base will help.

?!
The usual Amazon dealers are offering that CD at a normal price...
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B07J33Q51M/ref=tmm_acd_new_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=new&qid=1552963078&sr=8-1
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on March 18, 2019, 07:22:32 PM
Quote from: JBS on March 18, 2019, 06:42:13 PM
?!
The usual Amazon dealers are offering that CD at a normal price...
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B07J33Q51M/ref=tmm_acd_new_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=new&qid=1552963078&sr=8-1

May be a bit of a crapshoot.  I'd be a bit afraid of getting the wrong CD (e.g. the Israel Philharmonic recording) from some of these vendors.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 05, 2019, 02:04:30 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 30, 2019, 05:16:41 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 30, 2019, 03:34:41 AM
Excellent, Jens Laurson!!!

QuoteThanks kindly.

...
That's "universally adored Mega-famous critic Jens Laurson", to you, sir!  :P :D

(http://hua.umf.maine.edu/China/Xian/Shaanxi_History/images/Song_960_7367w.jpg)



Yes, Master!!!
   :D   8)


Sort-of related: Recently I got an e-mail back from a publisher that had been passed around internally -- and the e-mails among the staff were not deleted. And one chap forwarded my request to a colleague with this explanation: "I received the following request from Mr. Laurson a (relatively well-known) music critic..." "Relatively well-known music critic" has subsequently become my wife's nickname for me, when she is in a good mood. :-) To be certain, it's the most I ever aspired to. Just the right mix of sting and honey.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on April 24, 2019, 05:34:08 AM
I'm not much of a Brucknerian but I've just dipped a toe into the new Gergiev/Munich cycle by listening to No.2 and greatly enjoyed it.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91vP1ftDg+L._SS500_.jpg)

I wouldn't instinctively trust Gergiev in this music but here he does exactly what I want most in Bruckner - he just sets a tempo then rolls with it, minimum interference, end result to my ears quite classical in effect.  It's a fine (live) recording at St Florian and the reverberation is HUGE - just sample the start of the Scherzo.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 27, 2019, 06:25:52 AM
In a story about a new assistant conductor for the Dallas Symphony:

Quote

...Born in 1995, (Katharina) Wincor initially studied piano and oboe in the Senior High School of Music in Linz, Austria. Also in Linz, she studied composition at the Anton Bruckner Private University.

Since 2014, she has studied orchestral conducting in Vienna at the University of Music and Performing Arts, and she was invited as an exchange student for one year at the Franz Liszt Weimar School of Music in Germany. She is continuing conducting studies at the Zurich University of the Arts in Switzerland.


See:

https://www.dallasnews.com/arts/classical-music/2019/04/23/dallas-symphony-names-austrian-katharina-wincor-assistant-conductor (https://www.dallasnews.com/arts/classical-music/2019/04/23/dallas-symphony-names-austrian-katharina-wincor-assistant-conductor)

I never knew that such an institution existed, although it makes sense that it is located in Linz!

https://www.bruckneruni.at/en/home/ (https://www.bruckneruni.at/en/home/)

And I came across this:

(https://c.o0bg.com/rf/image_835w/Boston/2011-2020/2018/04/20/BostonGlobe.com/Arts/Images/MarcoBorggreve_names_01_art.jpg)

https://www3.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/names/2018/04/20/for-andris-nelsons-bruckner-bust/NVXEwrkBg2EePN2VJpfdqJ/story.html?arc404=true (https://www3.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/names/2018/04/20/for-andris-nelsons-bruckner-bust/NVXEwrkBg2EePN2VJpfdqJ/story.html?arc404=true)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 01, 2019, 04:25:33 AM
Georg Tintner's view on the Symphonic Prelude (from John Berky's website)


https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/news/georg-tintner--the-symphonic-prelude/fullimage.htm?image=Tintner-letter.jpg (https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/news/georg-tintner--the-symphonic-prelude/fullimage.htm?image=Tintner-letter.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 01, 2019, 08:41:36 AM
Quote from: André on May 01, 2019, 04:25:33 AM

Georg Tintner's view on the Symphonic Prelude (from John Berky's website)


https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/news/georg-tintner--the-symphonic-prelude/fullimage.htm?image=Tintner-letter.jpg (https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/news/georg-tintner--the-symphonic-prelude/fullimage.htm?image=Tintner-letter.jpg)


Interesting theory!  Who knows how much was lost in World War II's destruction, or in the chaos one reads about following Bruckner's death, with people snatching "mementos" e.g. the pages for the Ninth's Fourth Movement ?

On a different note... 8)

This popped up recently:

https://www.youtube.com/v/1YVdTI21rZQ

I knew a German woman who was one of the biggest members of his fan club, a near "Celi Groupie"  (Celipie ? ).  She gushed, gooeyed, and oozed with ecstatic praise for him!

It made me skeptical of the man for a while!   8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 02, 2019, 08:09:45 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on April 24, 2019, 05:34:08 AM
I'm not much of a Brucknerian but I've just dipped a toe into the new Gergiev/Munich cycle by listening to No.2 and greatly enjoyed it.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91vP1ftDg+L._SS500_.jpg)

I wouldn't instinctively trust Gergiev in this music but here he does exactly what I want most in Bruckner - he just sets a tempo then rolls with it, minimum interference, end result to my ears quite classical in effect.  It's a fine (live) recording at St Florian and the reverberation is HUGE - just sample the start of the Scherzo.

It's getting better, that much is for sure: Here's my review of No.1, just uploaded:


Dip Your Ears, No. 234 (Gergiev's Early Bruckner Maturing)
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2019/05/dip-your-ears-no-234-gergievs-early.html)

The conclusion isn't too dissimilar.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 24, 2019, 02:40:27 PM
For those who know German...

I have not watched the entire movie, but someone has placed a documentary from 1971 by Austrian Television of Rafael Kubelik preparing the Vienna Philharmonic for Bruckner's Symphony #4.

The first 70 minutes is an interview with the rehearsal, then follows the actual performance:

https://www.youtube.com/v/1wcOnftZo7I&t=4485s
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 24, 2019, 03:28:08 PM
That's great, Leo. Thanks for that most interesting film. Kubelik was one of the best brucknerians around.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on June 27, 2019, 11:03:47 PM
On the subject of Kubelik what's the verdict on these two recordings please?
From 1963 (Orfeo) and 1966.
(//)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 02, 2019, 01:43:22 PM
Quote from: Cato on April 27, 2019, 06:25:52 AM
https://www3.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/names/2018/04/20/for-andris-nelsons-bruckner-bust/NVXEwrkBg2EePN2VJpfdqJ/story.html?arc404=true (https://www3.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/names/2018/04/20/for-andris-nelsons-bruckner-bust/NVXEwrkBg2EePN2VJpfdqJ/story.html?arc404=true)

a toe-curling deeply naff image.  Hopefully one Nelsons will live to regret
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 03, 2019, 04:10:18 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 02, 2019, 01:43:22 PM
a toe-curling deeply naff image.  Hopefully one Nelsons will live to regret

Another image to contemplate:

(https://www.abruckner.com/store/collectibles/the-bruckner-bobblehead-doll/IMG_7301.jpg,5)

A Bruckner Bobblehead!  Well, why not?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on July 03, 2019, 08:11:14 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 03, 2019, 04:10:18 AM
Another image to contemplate:

(https://www.abruckner.com/store/collectibles/the-bruckner-bobblehead-doll/IMG_7301.jpg,5)

A Bruckner Bobblehead!  Well, why not?

$89.95 on ebay... I'll have to save every groschen.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 04, 2019, 01:39:58 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 02, 2019, 01:43:22 PM
a toe-curling deeply naff image.  Hopefully one Nelsons will live to regret

;D Right on, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 04, 2019, 04:02:15 AM
Quote from: Daverz on July 03, 2019, 08:11:14 PM
$89.95 on ebay... I'll have to save every groschen.

Bruckner is high-class all the way: "It'll cost ya!"   :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on July 05, 2019, 09:49:35 PM
This dropped at Presto last week

[asin]B07NTXC6T9[/asin]

I know some of you were unhappy with the previous releases.

Presto has a good price as well:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8621662--bruckner-symphonies-nos-1-9

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 06, 2019, 08:05:54 AM
Quote from: Daverz on July 05, 2019, 09:49:35 PM
This dropped at Presto last week

[asin]B07NTXC6T9[/asin]

I know some of you were unhappy with the previous releases.

Presto has a good price as well:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8621662--bruckner-symphonies-nos-1-9

How would you review the sound quality?  And I assume some televised concerts are on the Blu-ray disc?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 06, 2019, 08:18:36 AM

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/612l46GtHBL.jpg)


Just purchased this disc because I've always been curious about this conductor's Bruckner and it was insanely cheap (2 discs, 9$ new, shipped).

Anyone has heard Ballot's Bruckner ? He has a reputation for eccentric tempi, à la Celibidache (which some claim is his dad). Timings on this disc would seem to bear this out: 103 minutes. But quid of his conducting talent?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 06, 2019, 08:28:29 AM
Quote from: Cato on July 06, 2019, 08:05:54 AM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B07NTXC6T9.01.L.jpg)
How would you review the sound quality?  And I assume some televised concerts are on the Blu-ray disc?

SQ is bound to be identical with the last re-issue on CD... as the remastering takes place only for the blu-ray audio discs. (At least that's the case with the last such re-issues.)
There's no video on the blu-ray; they're audio-only.

Quote from: André on July 06, 2019, 08:18:36 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/612l46GtHBL.jpg)


Just purchased this disc because I've always been curious about this conductor's Bruckner and it was insanely cheap (2 discs, 9$ new, shipped).

Anyone has heard Ballot's Bruckner ? He has a reputation for eccentric tempi, à la Celibidache (which some claim is his dad). Timings on this disc would seem to bear this out: 103 minutes. But quid of his conducting talent?

I've heard him make kid-orchestras -- such as the one below -- sound excellent. I've heard three or four of those performances live. They're always different. The 7th impresses me the most*.  The tempi are due to the acoustic, more than any erraticism on his part. Celi is decidedly not his dad, but he was his last student and does look a bit like a young Celi - hence the cute rumor.

*And I loved Debussy Image before the Ninth - but that was not recorded (or not issued, at any rate). Actually a work that benefits from the acoustic at St. Florian. Whereas Bruckner (dirty secret) does not.

Written a bit about it here:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/09/08/the-second-coming-of-sergiu-celibidache-bruckner-in-st-florian/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/09/08/the-second-coming-of-sergiu-celibidache-bruckner-in-st-florian/)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/04/23/classical-cd-of-the-week-the-second-coming-of-celibidache/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/04/23/classical-cd-of-the-week-the-second-coming-of-celibidache/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 06, 2019, 10:59:40 AM
Thanks, Jens! Very interesting articles. I'm not as fond as you of a cathedral acoustic in Bruckner performances - a problematic concept IMO. I got rid of the Paternostro cycle on that account and most of the quibbles I had on the Schaller one stem from the echoey sound. Sometimes it works beautifully (as with Jochum's 8th with the Bambergers, also recorded in St Florian).

I am curious to hear Ballot. I normally prefer the 8th in the 74-80 minutes range, but I have 2 of Celibidache's 100+ versions and really get high on them, an almost spiritual experience. Suspense, suspense... :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 06, 2019, 12:35:51 PM
Quote from: André on July 06, 2019, 10:59:40 AM
Thanks, Jens! Very interesting articles. I'm not as fond as you of a cathedral acoustic in Bruckner performances - a problematic concept IMO. I got rid of the Paternostro cycle on that account and most of the quibbles I had on the Schaller one stem from the echoey sound. Sometimes it works beautifully (as with Jochum's 8th with the Bambergers, also recorded in St Florian).

I am curious to hear Ballot. I normally prefer the 8th in the 74-80 minutes range, but I have 2 of Celibidache's 100+ versions and really get high on them, an almost spiritual experience. Suspense, suspense... :)

You can RECORD well at St. Florian, if you hang the microphones just above and in front of the orchestra. (Just as there are good spots to listen to it -- above the orchestra, where you are no longer allowed to be.)
But then it would not sound right for the audience of a concert. And vice versa, if you play to the crowd (2/3 of which get mush, no matter *what* you do), then that doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense on record.

But one very well recorded 8th is Boulez' with the WPh (http://a-fwd.to/3rsq0qt) -- at St. Florian. A real dark horse favorite of mine.

Here's another Bruckner/Cathedral article: This one following the Bambergers and Blomstedt to 4 cathedrals, including St. Florian: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/09/21/the-subtle-miracle-herbert-blomstedt-and-bambergs-cathedral-tour-of-bruckner/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/09/21/the-subtle-miracle-herbert-blomstedt-and-bambergs-cathedral-tour-of-bruckner/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on July 06, 2019, 12:59:10 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 03, 2019, 04:10:18 AM
Another image to contemplate:

(https://www.abruckner.com/store/collectibles/the-bruckner-bobblehead-doll/IMG_7301.jpg,5)

A Bruckner Bobblehead!  Well, why not?
My brother would love that! Some years ago he went on a Bruckner 'Pilgerfahrt' to Austria.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 06, 2019, 01:23:12 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 06, 2019, 12:35:51 PM
You can RECORD well at St. Florian, if you hang the microphones just above and in front of the orchestra. (Just as there are good spots to listen to it -- above the orchestra, where you are no longer allowed to be.)
But then it would not sound right for the audience of a concert. And vice versa, if you play to the crowd (2/3 of which get mush, no matter *what* you do), then that doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense on record.

But one very well recorded 8th is Boulez' with the WPh (http://a-fwd.to/3rsq0qt) -- at St. Florian. A real dark horse favorite of mine.

Here's another Bruckner/Cathedral article: This one following the Bambergers and Blomstedt to 4 cathedrals, including St. Florian: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/09/21/the-subtle-miracle-herbert-blomstedt-and-bambergs-cathedral-tour-of-bruckner/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/09/21/the-subtle-miracle-herbert-blomstedt-and-bambergs-cathedral-tour-of-bruckner/)

Another thought-provoking article, thanks again Jens!

I had the chance to hear Blomstedt conduct the 2nd symphony in 2008, it was a fantastic performance despite the probable lack of familiarity of the orchestra with the version used (1872). Your tour of those Bruckner 5 concerts must have been quite an experience !
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on July 06, 2019, 02:48:03 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 06, 2019, 08:28:29 AM
SQ is bound to be identical with the last re-issue on CD... as the remastering takes place only for the blu-ray audio discs. (At least that's the case with the last such re-issues.)
There's no video on the blu-ray; they're audio-only.

That's weird.  Why don't they just downsample the Blu-ray transfers?  Is this true of the Steinberg Planets?  I bought the blu-ray set, but I can only play the CD.  I guess I'll hope for hi-res downloads at some point.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 06, 2019, 09:44:11 PM
Quote from: Daverz on July 06, 2019, 02:48:03 PM
That's weird.  Why don't they just downsample the Blu-ray transfers?  Is this true of the Steinberg Planets?  I bought the blu-ray set, but I can only play the CD.  I guess I'll hope for hi-res downloads at some point.

I know it's true of the Kubelik Mahler and of the Kempff Schubert -- and corresponding with the studio that did the remastering, it sounded as though that was the standard practice. Perhaps it's not as simple as simply downsampling the new transfers? Yes, it's a little bit odd, indeed.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on July 08, 2019, 01:48:52 AM
The West Coast Brucknerthon has been announced:

QuoteJoin us on SUNDAY, September 1, 2019 for the 21st annual San Diego County Bruckner Marathon.  Please note: To work around scheduling conflicts, this year's marathon is scheduled for the Sunday (not Saturday) before Labor Day.

This year we'll play all 11 of Bruckner's Symphonies, and, as always, the setting will be informal with plenty of food and drinks to keep us going.  We'll also have our usual CD exchange; those unwanted CDs of yours could be someone else's treasure.

As in previous years, we offer a combination of live and studio recordings.  Our line-up includes classic performances conducted by Eugen Jochum and William Steinberg.  We also celebrate the retirement of Bernard Haitink and the life of Michael Gielen.

Here are the selected recordings in the order in which they'll be played:
- Symphony in F minor: Schaller/Philharmonie Festiva (Profil CD, 2015)
- Symphony No. 1: Sieghart/Bruckner Orchester Linz (Camerata CD, 1995)
- Symphony in D minor: Van Beinum/Concertgebouw Orchestra (Private CD, 1955)
- Symphony No. 2: Muti/Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (Deutsche Grammophon CD, 2016)
- Symphony No. 3: Nézet-Séguin/Staatskapelle Dresden (Profil CD, 2008)
- Symphony No. 4: Wand/NHK Symphony Orchestra (Altus SACD, 1982)
- Symphony No. 5: Jochum/Concertgebouw Orchestra (Tower Records/Decca SACD, 1964)
- Symphony No. 6: Steinberg/Boston Symphony Orchestra (Tower Records/RCA CD, 1970)
- Symphony No. 7: Blomstedt/Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (Vienna Philharmonic CD, 2017)
- Symphony No. 8: Haitink/Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (Philips CD, 1995)
- Symphony No. 9: Gielen/SWF Symphony Orchestra (Intercord CD, 1993)

When: Sunday, September 1, 2019, beginning at 9:00 AM
Where: 9863 Fox Valley Way, San Diego, CA 92127

Please feel free to bring your favorite food and drinks (especially Bruckner's favorite beverage) to share.  Contributions will be taken towards lunch and/or dinner.  For more information, contact Ramón Khalona at rkhalona at hotmail dot com or Dave Griegel at dkgriegel at cox dot net.  Please forward this invitation to others who may be interested.  RSVPs are appreciated!

Be sure to brush up on your Bruckner trivia before the event, as the winner of the annual Bruckner quiz will walk away with a special prize.  We look forward to seeing you.

Ramón Khalona and Dave Griegel
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Maestro267 on July 08, 2019, 03:31:26 AM
I love it! Haven't seen anything like it in classical music, an event where people come, make themselves comfy and listen to recordings.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 08, 2019, 05:30:18 AM
Quote from: Daverz on July 08, 2019, 01:48:52 AM
The West Coast Brucknerthon has been announced:

Who smuggled Riccardo Muti's Bruckner into the lineup? Yikes. Masochists have to spoil everything.  :o :(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on July 08, 2019, 08:00:34 AM
Quote from: Daverz on July 08, 2019, 01:48:52 AM
The West Coast Brucknerthon has been announced:


What fun!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on July 08, 2019, 10:33:20 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 08, 2019, 05:30:18 AM
Who smuggled Riccardo Muti's Bruckner into the lineup? Yikes. Masochists have to spoil everything.  :o :(

I didn't care for the Chicago 9, but he recorded a beautiful 6 in Berlin. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 08, 2019, 12:55:55 PM
Quote from: Daverz on July 08, 2019, 10:33:20 AM
I didn't care for the Chicago 9, but he recorded a beautiful 6 in Berlin.

That Sixth is not quite my cup of tea, but it's certainly not awful -- just as his Berlin 4th is OK to goodish. But what I've heard of him lately, live, especially with the Vienna Phil, was absolutely hair-pullingly insensitive and boring.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on July 12, 2019, 06:32:54 PM
Quote from: Daverz on July 05, 2019, 09:49:35 PM
This dropped at Presto last week

[asin]B07NTXC6T9[/asin]

I know some of you were unhappy with the previous releases.

Presto has a good price as well:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8621662--bruckner-symphonies-nos-1-9

And now Qobuz is streaming Symphonies 4-9 at 192kHz/24-bit.  Yes, I know, huge overkill for these analog recordings.  Listening to 5 now.  Certainly sounds good.

https://open.qobuz.com/album/why2yxx4rkcmb
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on July 12, 2019, 06:45:36 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 08, 2019, 12:55:55 PM
That Sixth is not quite my cup of tea, but it's certainly not awful -- just as his Berlin 4th is OK to goodish. But what I've heard of him lately, live, especially with the Vienna Phil, was absolutely hair-pullingly insensitive and boring.

They have him doing the Second.  IOW, where he will do least harm.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 12, 2019, 11:17:17 PM
Quote from: JBS on July 12, 2019, 06:45:36 PM
They have him doing the Second.  IOW, where he will do least harm.

The way I look at it: The symphony that needs the most help (apart from F minor), you thus throw to the dogs. :-)

Oh, and recent Bruckner reviews on ClassicsToday:


Budapest Bruckner: Unimpressive Sublime
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9ztZXcW4AA2tft.jpg) (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/budapest-bruckner-unimpressive-sublime/?search=1)


Bruckner From Switzerland, Handicapped And Below Par
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9FudVIUwAEkwLo.jpg) (https://t.co/h8iFAKUh4s)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Andy D. on July 18, 2019, 06:21:56 PM
Quote from: Daverz on July 05, 2019, 09:49:35 PM
This dropped at Presto last week

[asin]B07NTXC6T9[/asin]

I know some of you were unhappy with the previous releases.

Presto has a good price as well:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8621662--bruckner-symphonies-nos-1-9
The ninth from that set is my least favorite but I really like most of the rest there.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 19, 2019, 01:53:22 PM
Folks,
I've been mulling heresy here. Normally i'm someone who won't hear a word against the Master and who thinks that his symphonies, especially the later ones, are well-nigh perfect.
But recently i've been having my doubts about 7. I've listened to all the recordings I have and i'm Coming round to the idea that the finale is slightly too short to match the scale of the first two movements.
I don't think think it's anything to do with interpretation or tempi, but it's just AB should have written another 3-4 minutes of music for the finale,  perhaps in an episode in the middle of the structure, simply to make it a little longer and more substantial.
What do people think?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 19, 2019, 03:25:00 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 19, 2019, 01:53:22 PM
Folks,
I've been mulling heresy here. Normally i'm someone who won't hear a word against the Master and who thinks that his symphonies, especially the later ones, are well-nigh perfect.
But recently i've been having my doubts about 7. I've listened to all the recordings I have and i'm Coming round to the idea that the finale is slightly too short to match the scale of the first two movements.
I don't think think it's anything to do with interpretation or tempi, but it's just AB should have written another 3-4 minutes of music for the finale,  perhaps in an episode in the middle of the structure, simply to make it a little longer and more substantial.
What do people think?

I can understand the sentiment, and have occasionally throughout the decades also wondered whether or not the Finale is - perhaps - a little short.  That we would like more music by Bruckner is a given, but whether or not that additional music should be added to a work is questionable.

In this case, let me surmise that, with those great middle movements, Bruckner went for a condensation rather than an expansion of what had gone before.  Bruckner, in general, did not follow traditional rules of structure, but invented rules for himself as variations on tradition.  The Finale is linked via rhythmical variations to the First movement, and to my ear there is a constant sense of conclusion right from the beginning, a sense which is sabotaged, causing thereby a great, if compact, struggle to reach the top of the mountain sooner rather than later, so to speak. 

Would another 3-4-5 minutes improve the movement, or would they be gilding the geranium?  I would think that small amount of extra music would not hurt, but...right now, I am thinking that the Finale is just fine the way it is! 

Which recordings do you have?  Do you have the Jochum on DGG from the 1960's?  If not, try it, and if so, try it again.   8)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on July 19, 2019, 04:10:10 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 19, 2019, 03:25:00 PM
I can understand the sentiment, and have occasionally throughout the decades also wondered whether or not the Finale is - perhaps - a little short.  That we would like more music by Bruckner is a given, but whether or not that additional music should be added to a work is questionable.



Leave 'em wanting more.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on July 19, 2019, 10:53:31 PM
The 8th? Be careful what you wish for  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Andy D. on July 20, 2019, 01:09:25 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 19, 2019, 04:10:10 PM
Leave 'em wanting more.

Perhaps Bruckner was a little tired of writing long, writhing symphonies at the time.

(that postulated, I can't imagine any of AB's symphonies getting any better than the way they are now. Pardon my sycophancy)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 20, 2019, 04:44:48 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 19, 2019, 03:25:00 PM
I can understand the sentiment, and have occasionally throughout the decades also wondered whether or not the Finale is - perhaps - a little short.  That we would like more music by Bruckner is a given, but whether or not that additional music should be added to a work is questionable.

In this case, let me surmise that, with those great middle movements, Bruckner went for a condensation rather than an expansion of what had gone before.  Bruckner, in general, did not follow traditional rules of structure, but invented rules for himself as variations on tradition.  The Finale is linked via rhythmical variations to the First movement, and to my ear there is a constant sense of conclusion right from the beginning, a sense which is sabotaged, causing thereby a great, if compact, struggle to reach the top of the mountain sooner rather than later, so to speak. 

Would another 3-4-5 minutes improve the movement, or would they be gilding the geranium?  I would think that small amount of extra music would not hurt, but...right now, I am thinking that the Finale is just fine the way it is! 

Which recordings do you have?  Do you have the Jochum on DGG from the 1960's?  If not, try it, and if so, try it again.   8)

I've always thought of the seventh as a three-part symphony, with the scherzo and finale balancing the first two movements, with each 'part' lasting some 20-23 minutes. The finale is in good part dance-based, with its polka rythms. Following the slowish scherzo, it seems to me a natural development of the latter, with the broadening at the end capping the work in glorious fashion.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 11, 2019, 05:02:22 PM
I just discovered this: Manfred Honeck and the Pittsburgh Symphony try the Bruckner Ninth Symphony.

Quote

Honeck, like Bruckner a devout Austrian Catholic, believes there is a close connection between the text of the "Agnus Dei" portion of the Mass and the slow final movement of the Ninth. He identifies particular musical ideas with sins of the world ("peccata mundi") and prayers for mercy and for peace. The meaning of the earlier two movements is similarly clarified for both primary musical ideas and smaller gestures.

The proof of Honeck's verbal interpretation is the enthralling performance he leads. It is a bold performance marked in part by extremes – the very loud and the very soft, slow pacing and tremendous speed (in the middle section of the second movement), and immense power and meekness. Yet it is the nuance with which Honeck and the musicians tell the story which most touches the heart. Honeck's Bruckner Ninth is a performance of the utmost devotion and conviction which reaches the most transcendent heights when speaking softly.



See:  https://triblive.com/aande/music/manfred-honeck-pso-release-new-anton-bruckner-recording/ (https://triblive.com/aande/music/manfred-honeck-pso-release-new-anton-bruckner-recording/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 12, 2019, 06:29:13 AM
For our European members: from the International Bruckner Society...

Quote

To commemorate the IBG's 90th anniversary, there will be a symposium and a concert in Vienna on 8th of October 2019. Bruckner's string quintet will be played by musicians from the Vienna Philharmonic.
There will be greetings by Johanna Rachinger and Thomas Leibnitz, and Clemens Hellsberg will give a paper.

The complete program will be published some days before the concert.

Professor Benjamin Korstvedt from Clark University and current President of the Bruckner Society of America will represent the Society at the event.


This Blu-Ray is being released at the end of the month:

[asin]B07VTYDY5M[/asin]

Probably for a separate topic, but does anyone prefer to watch a concert on television rather than simply hear the music?  If one attends the concert, there is always a certain added excitement in hearing and seeing the performance as it happens, rather than at a distance via the recording.

But a televised performance will always have the cameras cutting back and forth and up and down and zooming in and away: I recall a Saint Peter's Basilica concert of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis that was televised in the 1970's, and Franco Zeffirelli was put in charge of the cameras.  At one point he had a camera literally spiraling upward toward the peak of the dome while the music played.  Such "Mickey-Mousing" was a distraction and hindrance and added nothing to the music.

Obviously I would prefer a televised concert with a minimum of camera movement.   ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Biffo on September 12, 2019, 06:58:33 AM
It is not a preference but  do occasionally watch televised concerts. I also stream concerts but then I play them through my hi-fi and don't bother with the visuals playing on my PC. The bulk of music DVDs I own are operas with a few documentaries.  I dislike concerts on DVD for the reasons mentioned above by Cato - all the tricksy camera work etc.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 12, 2019, 08:45:01 AM
Quote from: Biffo on September 12, 2019, 06:58:33 AM
It is not a preference but  do occasionally watch televised concerts. I also stream concerts but then I play them through my hi-fi and don't bother with the visuals playing on my PC. The bulk of music DVDs I own are operas with a few documentaries.  I dislike concerts on DVD for the reasons mentioned above by Cato - all the tricksy camera work etc.

I have Elektra by Richard Strauss with Hildegard Behrens and in the late 1980's taped a performance of Erwartung by Arnold Schoenberg with Jessye Norman.

(Mrs. Cato does not like opera.  ;)    )
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: j winter on September 12, 2019, 10:01:48 AM
I certainly prefer audio, but for works that I particularly like, I will sometimes seek out a video performance, particularly if it includes rehearsal footage or other goodies. 

For such DVDs I try to avoid duplication in works, and to spread the wealth among as many different conductors/performers as well... it gives me a chance to "see" as well as hear some of my favorites.  I make exceptions for the rare cases where there's a video set like the WP films of Lenny's Mahler or Bohm's Mozart, where I really appreciate the specific combination of performer and composer.

For Bruckner, I have the following... my favorite is the Giulini 9, which includes a nice rehearsal with the orchestra:

(https://www.euroarts.com/sites/default/files/styles/disk_cover_1000_/public/media_product/Bruckner5_300dpi.jpg?itok=lH46LvV-)

(https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/e29809ef-994f-44d3-a955-85c475b967cd_1.97a6b09dd8cbf819ec94a83224f06d85.jpeg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81X96M0wnVL._SY445_.jpg)

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Dec04/Bruckner_Giulini_101065.jpg)

I think it's this one -- I know have one of Celi in Munich, don't have it in front of me... bought it from BRO and the packaging is different
(http://arthaus-musik.de/include/images/DVD/101645_Celibidache%20Bruckner4.jpg)

     
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 13, 2019, 03:49:59 AM
Quote from: j winter on September 12, 2019, 10:01:48 AM
I certainly prefer audio, but for works that I particularly like, I will sometimes seek out a video performance, particularly if it includes rehearsal footage or other goodies. 

For such DVDs I try to avoid duplication in works, and to spread the wealth among as many different conductors/performers as well... it gives me a chance to "see" as well as hear some of my favorites.  I make exceptions for the rare cases where there's a video set like the WP films of Lenny's Mahler or Bohm's Mozart, where I really appreciate the specific combination of performer and composer.

For Bruckner, I have the following... my favorite is the Giulini 9, which includes a nice rehearsal with the orchestra:


Many thanks for the recommendations!

Giulini is always dependable, much like Carl Schuricht or Eugen Jochum.

I assume the camerawork in those DVD's is subdued?   ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: j winter on September 13, 2019, 09:57:10 AM
Quote from: Cato on September 13, 2019, 03:49:59 AM
Many thanks for the recommendations!

Giulini is always dependable, much like Carl Schuricht or Eugen Jochum.

I assume the camerawork in those DVD's is subdued?   ;)

I would have to rewatch them to be 100% sure, but I have no particular memory of the cinematography -- which in this case is probably a good sign :)

I have to say, I would not particularly recommend the Karajan video -- if I recall the actual performance is fine, but he made a whole series of those videos late in his life, and they are all pretty similar... they rotate slowly between a few static shots of the various sections of the orchestra, and soft focus shots of Karajan, eyes majestically closed, ponderously massaging little whirls of air with his fingers.  I can only imagine there are better video versions of the 8th...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on September 14, 2019, 02:14:07 AM
Quote from: Cato on September 13, 2019, 03:49:59 AM
I assume the camerawork in those DVD's is subdued?   ;)

Matching a consistent stereo (or even surround) sound image with changeing and sometimes close-up viewpoints of the musicians presents some knotty problems for the sound balancer and the production team in general.  You can't just rely on a general self-balancing orchestral image (eg from a crossed pair or Decca tree or some such) - that would look and sound quite inadequate.

In the early days of stereo-with-pictures (eg some Proms broadcasts in the '70s where (mono) TV and (stereo) radio broadcast simultaneously - incidentally no longer possible in the digital age) we were limited to visuals consisting of a long shot of the orchestra from the back of the auditorium, with the camera gently tracking left and right behind some silhouetted audience heads while keeping the whole orchestra in shot, to add some visual interest.
Well as anyone who has worked in TV knows, visuals trump audio bigtime, so it wasn't long before the direction and camerawork became more adventurous.  For a while it was quite messy I thought, but then simulcasts stopped being a thing, and for occasions such as the Proms we now have two compeletely separate sound balances, albeit sometimes sharing the same mics or at least some of them.  The TV is almost always post-produced and broadcast later, meaning that the sound balancer can and does tweak spotlights in the sound, from a multitrack master, to match the picture.  The (live) radio balance by comparison is less 'managed' (though the sound person will be working to the score, its not completely passive) - although it is still recorded in multitrack format so that if it later gets issued as a recording it will get re-balanced. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: j winter on September 14, 2019, 06:47:12 AM
Very interesting -- thanks for that!  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 20, 2019, 01:39:37 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on September 14, 2019, 02:14:07 AM
Matching a consistent stereo (or even surround) sound image with changeing and sometimes close-up viewpoints of the musicians presents some knotty problems for the sound balancer and the production team in general.  You can't just rely on a general self-balancing orchestral image (eg from a crossed pair or Decca tree or some such) - that would look and sound quite inadequate.

In the early days of stereo-with-pictures (eg some Proms broadcasts in the '70s where (mono) TV and (stereo) radio broadcast simultaneously - incidentally no longer possible in the digital age) we were limited to visuals consisting of a long shot of the orchestra from the back of the auditorium, with the camera gently tracking left and right behind some silhouetted audience heads while keeping the whole orchestra in shot, to add some visual interest.
Well as anyone who has worked in TV knows, visuals trump audio bigtime, so it wasn't long before the direction and camerawork became more adventurous.  For a while it was quite messy I thought, but then simulcasts stopped being a thing, and for occasions such as the Proms we now have two compeletely separate sound balances, albeit sometimes sharing the same mics or at least some of them. The TV is almost always post-produced and broadcast later, meaning that the sound balancer can and does tweak spotlights in the sound, from a multitrack master, to match the picture.  The (live) radio balance by comparison is less 'managed' (though the sound person will be working to the score, its not completely passive) - although it is still recorded in multitrack format so that if it later gets issued as a recording it will get re-balanced.

Quote from: j winter on September 14, 2019, 06:47:12 AM
Very interesting -- thanks for that!  :)


Yes, many thanks for the explanation!

The Anton Bruckner website is offering a download of a chamber-orchestra version arranged by a Portuguese composer, of the Seventh Symphony.

Does smaller Bruckner interest anyone? 

https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/news/a-new-performing-version-of-the-symphony-no-7-for-/ (https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/news/a-new-performing-version-of-the-symphony-no-7-for-/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on September 20, 2019, 03:53:39 PM
Quote from: Cato on September 20, 2019, 01:39:37 PM

Yes, many thanks for the explanation!

The Anton Bruckner website is offering a download of a chamber-orchestra version arranged by a Portuguese composer, of the Seventh Symphony.

Does smaller Bruckner interest anyone? 

https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/news/a-new-performing-version-of-the-symphony-no-7-for-/ (https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/news/a-new-performing-version-of-the-symphony-no-7-for-/)

It's an idea floated - and carried - by Schoenberg & Co. almost 100 years ago. It has been recorded at least twice (I have it by the Thomas Christian Ensemble and the Linos Ensemble). This new arrangement is scored differently, using the instruments of the full score but in a one-to-a-part kind of thing. I don't know how that works. A friend of mine has downloaded it and is burning it on cdr. I'll ask him a copy.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 20, 2019, 04:45:38 PM
Quote from: André on September 20, 2019, 03:53:39 PM
It's an idea floated - and carried - by Schoenberg & Co. almost 100 years ago. It has been recorded at least twice (I have it by the Thomas Christian Ensemble and the Linos Ensemble). This new arrangement is scored differently, using the instruments of the full score but in a one-to-a-part kind of thing. I don't know how that works. A friend of mine has downloaded it and is burning it on cdr. I'll ask him a copy.

Concerning Arnold Schoenberg's idea for the creation of a smaller score:

Quote

Despite the grandiloquence of form and orchestral concept, the supreme organization of its creative thinking makes the Brucknerian symphonies perfectly suited to what is called "instrumental reduction". Schoenberg was the first to realize this, in relation to not only Bruckner's music but also that of Mahler and Debussy, among others. Specifically for Bruckner's Symphony No.7, Schoenberg instructed his students Hanns Eisler, Erwin Stein and Karl Rankl, to prepare an instrumental reduction of the symphony, planned at the time for a very modestly sized ensemble of only two violins, viola, violoncello, double bass, clarinet, French horn, 4-hands piano and harmonium. Intended, like so many other arrangements at this time, for the Society for Private Musical Performances (Verein für musikalische Privataufführungen), which Schoenberg founded in Vienna in the 1920s, it was actually never performed then but finally premiered only more than 60 years later.

Inspired by Schoenberg's concept, Luís Carvalho created in 2018-2019 a new version of the Seventh for ensemble. Scored for a group of about fifteen players, unlike the "Schoenbergian" version Carvalho tries to simulate a miniature orchestra by including all the chief instrumental families of the typical Brucknerian symphony orchestra. Thus, a more compact instrumental version of the work is sought while still trying to retain some of its original grandeur. At the same time, a certain refreshing of timbre is pursued by the inclusion of less usual instruments such as the euphonium, the flugelhorn and the accordion (which can be replaced by a harmonium, a closer option to the Schoenbergian arrangements).

The perspective in this new arrangement is always that the listener's musical enjoyment will be equally rewarding when compared to the original symphonic version. After all, it still is some of the best music the Romantic era has produced!




And something else of interest....


Courtesy of a Bruckner fan in Greece:

https://www.youtube.com/v/MwySoONIOk0

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Bach and Brahms, Beer and Brats, and Bruckner Motets
Post by: Cato on October 06, 2019, 03:10:29 AM
For an Oktoberfest celebration!

Quote

The program features J.S. Bach's great motet "Jesu meine freude," Johannes Brahms' "Zigeunerlieder" (Gypsy Songs), motets by Anton Bruckner and drinking songs found in the Beer Choir Hymnal....

"Classical music especially is too often stereotyped as being stuffy and unapproachable, and it shouldn't be!" Taylor said in a statement. "We are making this concert into an event befit its title."


Hmmm!  That last part seems a little off grammatically.   ;)


https://www.postandcourier.com/features/taylor-festival-choir-celebrates-oktoberfest-in-charleston-and-beaufort-with/article_db9a8ff2-dfb9-11e9-9f9b-97d8f6ebe5b9.html (https://www.postandcourier.com/features/taylor-festival-choir-celebrates-oktoberfest-in-charleston-and-beaufort-with/article_db9a8ff2-dfb9-11e9-9f9b-97d8f6ebe5b9.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Bach and Brahms, Beer and Brats, and Bruckner Motets
Post by: vers la flamme on October 06, 2019, 04:31:25 AM
Quote from: Cato on October 06, 2019, 03:10:29 AM
For an Oktoberfest celebration!

Hmmm!  That last part seems a little off grammatically.   ;)


https://www.postandcourier.com/features/taylor-festival-choir-celebrates-oktoberfest-in-charleston-and-beaufort-with/article_db9a8ff2-dfb9-11e9-9f9b-97d8f6ebe5b9.html (https://www.postandcourier.com/features/taylor-festival-choir-celebrates-oktoberfest-in-charleston-and-beaufort-with/article_db9a8ff2-dfb9-11e9-9f9b-97d8f6ebe5b9.html)

Sounds like a good time. Not so far from me, either.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Bach and Brahms, Beer and Brats, and Bruckner Motets
Post by: Cato on October 07, 2019, 03:13:48 PM
For an Oktoberfest celebration!


   
QuoteThe program features J.S. Bach's great motet "Jesu meine freude," Johannes Brahms' "Zigeunerlieder" (Gypsy Songs), motets by Anton Bruckner and drinking songs found in the Beer Choir Hymnal....

    "Classical music especially is too often stereotyped as being stuffy and unapproachable, and it shouldn't be!" Taylor said in a statement. "We are making this concert into an event befit its title."



https://www.postandcourier.com/features/taylor-festival-choir-celebrates-oktoberfest-in-charleston-and-beaufort-with/article_db9a8ff2-dfb9-11e9-9f9b-97d8f6ebe5b9.h


Quote from: vers la flamme on October 06, 2019, 04:31:25 AM
Sounds like a good time. Not so far from me, either.

If you attend, please write a review for us!   8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Symphony Number 5
Post by: mjmosca on October 12, 2019, 04:47:56 AM
I have been collecting recordings of the Symphony #5 for a long time, I think that I have about 12 at present. The most recent purchase has come as a great surprise, though I had read that Lovro Von Matacic had excellent recordings of Bruckner. His recording of the Symphony number 5 with the Orchestre National de France on Naive lable is a splendid achievement- the last movement, builds to a most magnificent realization- perfectly timed [in my opinion]. It is now my go to recording. Anyone else familiar with this recording? thank you.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2019, 09:01:10 AM
I'm currently greatly enjoying this monumental and granitic recorded performance of Symphony 5:
(//)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on October 12, 2019, 09:07:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 12, 2019, 09:01:10 AM
I'm currently greatly enjoying this monumental and granitic recorded performance of Symphony 5:
(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=29.0;attach=60414;image)

A truly indispensable set.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2019, 09:32:53 AM
Quote from: André on October 12, 2019, 09:07:00 AM
A truly indispensable set.
Glad you think so André. He and Haitink are both great Bruckner conductors from the Netherlands.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Symphony Number 5
Post by: Cato on October 22, 2019, 01:47:34 PM
Quote from: mjmosca on October 12, 2019, 04:47:56 AM
I have been collecting recordings of the Symphony #5 for a long time, I think that I have about 12 at present. The most recent purchase has come as a great surprise, though I had read that Lovro Von Matacic had excellent recordings of Bruckner. His recording of the Symphony number 5 with the Orchestre National de France on Naive lable is a splendid achievement- the last movement, builds to a most magnificent realization- perfectly timed [in my opinion]. It is now my go to recording. Anyone else familiar with this recording? thank you.

Greetings!  Sorry, no, I have never heard of this, but will investigate!


Quote from: vandermolen on October 12, 2019, 09:01:10 AM

I'm currently greatly enjoying (Van Beinum's)  monumental and granitic recorded performance of Symphony 5:


When I was discovering Classical Music in grade school, a good number of Van Beinum records were in circulation: since he died right around the beginning of the stereo era, they were undoubtedly swamped by newer versions in stereo.  Many thanks for reminding us of this recording!

https://www.youtube.com/v/ghW8AWt6Vmw
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 22, 2019, 01:52:58 PM
Okay, is it just me, or is Die Nullte popping up more and more these days?  0:)

From a Bruckner Facebook page:

https://www.youtube.com/v/Fj_VwS7jGz4&feature=youtu.be

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: relm1 on November 04, 2019, 04:10:59 PM
I had the wonderful experience of hearing Bruckner's No. 4 live yesterday by the LA Phil/Dudamel.  It was a superb performance (well except for the damn cell phone that went off in my section and received searing stares from members of the orchestra before they recomposed themselves.  Disney Hall is a very bright hall where all sounds are carried, not just the stage.  Aside from that, a phenomenal performance with exquisite attention to detail, precision, and dramatic propulsive energy.  Fantastically performed especially by the brass but seriously all played their hearts out.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on November 04, 2019, 04:16:04 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 04, 2019, 04:10:59 PM
I had the wonderful experience of hearing Bruckner's No. 4 live yesterday by the LA Phil/Dudamel.  It was a superb performance (well except for the damn cell phone that went off in my section and received searing stares from members of the orchestra before they recomposed themselves.  Disney Hall is a very bright hall where all sounds are carried, not just the stage.  Aside from that, a phenomenal performance with exquisite attention to detail, precision, and dramatic propulsive energy.  Fantastically performed especially by the brass but seriously all played their hearts out.

It royally pisses me off that people can't put down their damn cell phones for three seconds to watch one of the great orchestras perform. I mean if someone pays money to see them, it means you want to see them perform the music and nothing else --- that's it! I know for some folks going to the concert hall is just a social thing and they really have no interest in it, but to those that are there for the music, I can't think of a greater offense than a cell phone ringing.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: relm1 on November 05, 2019, 06:26:32 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 04, 2019, 04:16:04 PM
It royally pisses me off that people can't put down their damn cell phones for three seconds to watch one of the great orchestras perform. I mean if someone pays money to see them, it means you want to see them perform the music and nothing else --- that's it! I know for some folks going to the concert hall is just a social thing and they really have no interest in it, but to those that are there for the music, I can't think of a greater offense than a cell phone ringing.

I don't think they couldn't put down their damn cell phone for three seconds, just some old person who hasn't mastered their technology never turned the ringer off though instructed to.  Whenever I take my elderly mom to the concert, I have to manage this for her otherwise she'll have no idea how to do it.  It was one of those sort of things.  It's annoying and all, but orchestra members really should fake their disgust.  This is the freaking orchestra that played through an earthquake without it interrupting a performance, they do have that will power and concentration level in their control.  The cell phone should be more annoying to the audience than the orchestra.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAPxOMp0rL0
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on November 06, 2019, 11:31:58 PM
Interesting looking new release:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Nov/Bruckner_sys_4840204.htm
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 07, 2019, 12:56:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 06, 2019, 11:31:58 PM
Interesting looking new release:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Nov/Bruckner_sys_4840204.htm

Also in the works: A set of ALL Bruckner Symphonies in ALL versions. Every note. Every version. Every alternative finale. Bruckner Orchestra Linz and RSO Vienna under Poschner. Probably to appear on Capriccio before the anniversary in 2024.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on November 07, 2019, 03:02:19 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 06, 2019, 11:31:58 PM
Interesting looking new release:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Nov/Bruckner_sys_4840204.htm

Good deal if you don't have the Böhm, Stein, and Mehta recordings.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on November 07, 2019, 03:03:46 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 07, 2019, 12:56:50 AM
Also in the works: A set of ALL Bruckner Symphonies in ALL versions. Every note. Every version. Every alternative finale. Bruckner Orchestra Linz and RSO Vienna under Poschner. Probably to appear on Capriccio before the anniversary in 2024.

Bruckner the obsessive would have approved.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 07, 2019, 11:27:44 AM
Oh dear, I'll have to get it for one track I need to hear: the first version of the Scherzo of the First (only heard a small ensemble version).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 09, 2019, 03:06:45 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 04, 2019, 04:16:04 PM
It royally pisses me off that people can't put down their damn cell phones for three seconds to watch one of the great orchestras perform. I mean if someone pays money to see them, it means you want to see them perform the music and nothing else --- that's it! I know for some folks going to the concert hall is just a social thing and they really have no interest in it, but to those that are there for the music, I can't think of a greater offense than a cell phone ringing.

The entire planet it seems has become addicted to those machines, which the previous Catholic bishop of my diocese compared to Ba'al or The Golden Calf, a new false god for our addled age.

Quote from: relm1 on November 04, 2019, 04:10:59 PM
I had the wonderful experience of hearing Bruckner's No. 4 live yesterday by the LA Phil/Dudamel.  It was a superb performance (well except for the damn cell phone that went off in my section and received searing stares from members of the orchestra before they recomposed themselves.  Disney Hall is a very bright hall where all sounds are carried, not just the stage.  Aside from that, a phenomenal performance with exquisite attention to detail, precision, and dramatic propulsive energy.  Fantastically performed especially by the brass but seriously all played their hearts out.

Glad to hear it was a great performance!

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 07, 2019, 12:56:50 AM
Also in the works: A set of ALL Bruckner Symphonies in ALL versions. Every note. Every version. Every alternative finale. Bruckner Orchestra Linz and RSO Vienna under Poschner. Probably to appear on Capriccio before the anniversary in 2024.

Quote from: aukhawk on November 07, 2019, 03:03:46 AM
Bruckner the obsessive would have approved.

Indeed!   ;)   But will it include the "Performing Version" of the 9th's Finale by SMC or anybody else?



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on November 09, 2019, 03:32:54 PM
Quote from: Daverz on November 07, 2019, 03:02:19 AM
Good deal if you don't have the Böhm, Stein, and Mehta recordings.

I only have the Mehta version of Np.9 and don't own any of the others.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on November 09, 2019, 07:56:38 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 05, 2019, 06:26:32 AM
I don't think they couldn't put down their damn cell phone for three seconds, just some old person who hasn't mastered their technology never turned the ringer off though instructed to.  Whenever I take my elderly mom to the concert, I have to manage this for her otherwise she'll have no idea how to do it.  It was one of those sort of things.  It's annoying and all, but orchestra members really should fake their disgust.  This is the freaking orchestra that played through an earthquake without it interrupting a performance, they do have that will power and concentration level in their control.  The cell phone should be more annoying to the audience than the orchestra.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAPxOMp0rL0

But my point is it's annoying and disrespectful to, not only the audience, but the orchestra musicians as well. I understand that mistakes happen but this kind of thing is becoming more and more prominent in our society and I'm totally against it. Cell phones should all be set to vibrate when attending a concert, especially a classical concert where silence is absolutely necessary to hear what's happening onstage.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: relm1 on November 10, 2019, 06:38:07 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 09, 2019, 07:56:38 PM
But my point is it's annoying and disrespectful to, not only the audience, but the orchestra musicians as well. I understand that mistakes happen but this kind of thing is becoming more and more prominent in our society and I'm totally against it. Cell phones should all be set to vibrate when attending a concert, especially a classical concert where silence is absolutely necessary to hear what's happening onstage.

I agree cell phones *should* be turned off/vibrate but accidents happen and orchestras should maintain their composure, sure they fume inside but dirty looks from several of them were very, very disrespectful to the audience too and somewhat juvenile.  To me, it's almost like a yawn from an orchestra member.  Remember in Bruckner 8, the percussionist literally plays one note in the entire work and has to sit there throughout for that one cymbal crash.  Wouldn't it be inappropriate for a yawn to come from them or for them to look anything other than engaged?  Of course he's bored.  But he's a professional.  I think the dirty looks were like that.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on November 10, 2019, 06:45:27 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 10, 2019, 06:38:07 AM
I agree cell phones *should* be turned off/vibrate but accidents happen and orchestras should maintain their composure, sure they fume inside but dirty looks from several of them were very, very disrespectful to the audience too and somewhat juvenile.  To me, it's almost like a yawn from an orchestra member.  Remember in Bruckner 8, the percussionist literally plays one note in the entire work and has to sit there throughout for that one cymbal crash.  Wouldn't it be inappropriate for a yawn to come from them or for them to look anything other than engaged?  Of course he's bored.  But he's a professional.  I think the dirty looks were like that.

Well, two wrongs here certainly don't make a right I agree.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 10, 2019, 12:08:16 PM
Quote from: Cato on November 09, 2019, 03:06:45 PM

Indeed!   ;)   But will it include the "Performing Version" of the 9th's Finale by SMC or anybody else?

I will inquire!
Title: Brahms is Everything...But Bruckner is THE ANSWER!
Post by: Cato on November 12, 2019, 06:47:47 AM
I came across this article by chance: the quotation of a comment by Max Rudolf caught my eye.  Max Rudolf was the head of the Cincinnati Symphony and the May Festival for over a decade, and brought them to higher levels of performance.  The Brahms and Bruckner comment is most intriguing!   ;)

Comments on preparing both the orchestra and the audience for a Bruckner symphony I also found interesting:

Quote

..."Not doing Bruckner has been a real void," Stern said. "The orchestra had lost the tradition of playing, and the audience had lost the tradition of hearing it, so it had to be reintroduced in the right way, and I think the seventh (Sic!) is the right one to do it with. It's accessible, it's majestic, it's incredibly powerful. And it's not his longest one."

"The length of a typical Bruckner symphony provides a challenge not just for the audience but also for the musicians.

"It is a massive undertaking," Stern said. "It's a huge edifice of control and focus and concentration. It's the architecture that holds it together and that requires a control of playing and intonation from both brass and winds and strings. Bruckner builds a massive cathedral, which starts with the foundation and builds up and up and up until you come to the spire, and that's it."

"...Bruckner wrote the seventh symphony (Sic) in his 59th year, and it spoke to me because I'm in my 59th year," Stern said. "When I was in my 30s and 40s, I absolutely hesitated to do Bruckner. This music requires a life experience and a patience and an understanding and a vulnerability, and sometimes all those things are less present in a young person than in someone who's lived a little bit longer. My teacher, Max Rudolf, used to say, 'When you're young, you think Brahms is everything, and then you grow up and realize that Bruckner is the answer.' Now I know what he meant."



See:

https://www.kansascity.com/entertainment/arts-culture/article236531868.html (https://www.kansascity.com/entertainment/arts-culture/article236531868.html)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on November 12, 2019, 07:06:10 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 12, 2019, 06:47:47 AM
I came across this article by chance: the quotation of a comment by Max Rudolf caught my eye.  Max Rudolf was the head of the Cincinnati Symphony and the May Festival for over a decade, and brought them to higher levels of performance.  The Brahms and Bruckner comment is most intriguing!   ;)

Comments on preparing both the orchestra and the audience for a Bruckner symphony I also found interesting:

See:

https://www.kansascity.com/entertainment/arts-culture/article236531868.html (https://www.kansascity.com/entertainment/arts-culture/article236531868.html)



Nice!
Title: Re: Brahms is Everything...But Bruckner is THE ANSWER!
Post by: André on November 12, 2019, 08:22:42 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 12, 2019, 06:47:47 AM
I came across this article by chance: the quotation of a comment by Max Rudolf caught my eye.  Max Rudolf was the head of the Cincinnati Symphony and the May Festival for over a decade, and brought them to higher levels of performance.  The Brahms and Bruckner comment is most intriguing!   ;)

Comments on preparing both the orchestra and the audience for a Bruckner symphony I also found interesting:

See:

https://www.kansascity.com/entertainment/arts-culture/article236531868.html (https://www.kansascity.com/entertainment/arts-culture/article236531868.html)

Thanks, Leo, good article. I do wonder about the bit (in the KC newspaper) on the cymbal crash being triggered by the news of Bruckner's death. I had always thought it was the end of the adagio (the brass dirge) that Bruckner composed in response to the event.
Title: Re: Brahms is Everything...But Bruckner is THE ANSWER!
Post by: Cato on November 13, 2019, 06:45:32 AM
Quote from: André on November 12, 2019, 08:22:42 AM
Thanks, Leo, good article. I do wonder about the bit (in the KC newspaper) on the cymbal crash being triggered by the news of Wagner's death. I had always thought it was the end of the adagio (the brass dirge) that Bruckner composed in response to the event.

Oh my!  The "Cymbal Clash Controversy"!   ??? ???   ;)

I have read in the past that the story of the news of Wagner's death giving rise to the cymbal clash is a myth.  Conductor Arthur Nikisch is the one who supposedly suggested the punctuation of a cymbal clash at the climax.  Another source for Bruckner's mind-set at the time is a letter to Felix MottlBruckner's former student, in which he admitted to knowing of Wagner's ill health, that he probably did not have long to live, and that this uneasy feeling was in his mind at the same time as the theme in c# minor was occurring to him.

Scholars have argued that the words "Nicht gilt" (Invalid) on the crossed-out cymbal clash in the manuscript are not in Bruckner's penmanship.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on November 13, 2019, 07:01:59 AM
Interesting, thanks!

Meanwhile, searching for a clue has led me to read this very informative article by Richard Freed, who dwells at length on the context of the composition and its influence on the music. 


https://www.kennedy-center.org/artist/composition/3670 (https://www.kennedy-center.org/artist/composition/3670)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 13, 2019, 07:24:01 AM
Quote from: André on November 13, 2019, 07:01:59 AM
Interesting, thanks!

Meanwhile, searching for a clue has led me to read this very informative article by Richard Freed, who dwells at length on the context of the composition and its influence on the music. 


https://www.kennedy-center.org/artist/composition/3670 (https://www.kennedy-center.org/artist/composition/3670)

Very nice article!

I should mention that the DGG Eugen Jochum recording of the 1960's uses the percussion for that climax in the Adagio: nothing "invalid" about the cymbal clash, as far as he was concerned.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on November 14, 2019, 12:26:15 AM
I suppose he thought that it was the crossing-out that was 'invalid'.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on November 14, 2019, 06:39:16 AM
No, the crossing out is apparently by another hand. If Bruckner wanted the reorchestrated climax nixed he would simply have removed the addendum that contained the amended (cymbal+triangle) parts. At least, that's what Richard Freed claims in his analysis of the symphony, and it makes a lot of sense. My hunch is that Bruckner stood by what he wrote, but was not actively against the amendment.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 15, 2019, 10:25:25 AM
Because of a recommendation from Andre':


https://www.youtube.com/v/5JnGmMQ5aU8
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on November 15, 2019, 12:24:00 PM
Quote from: mahlertitan on April 06, 2007, 09:35:22 AM
just a question not related to the main topic. out of pure curiosity, why is that only males seem to enjoy the music of Bruckner?
Given the peculiar way so many of his symphonies involve multiple 'accelerandos' without ever reaching a real climax ?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on November 15, 2019, 12:25:51 PM
Quote from: Cato on November 15, 2019, 10:25:25 AM
Because of a recommendation from Andre':


https://www.youtube.com/v/5JnGmMQ5aU8

It's really quite stupendous IMO.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 16, 2019, 01:17:06 PM
Quote from: Cato on November 15, 2019, 10:25:25 AM
Because of a recommendation from Andre':


https://www.youtube.com/v/5JnGmMQ5aU8



Quote from: André on November 15, 2019, 12:25:51 PM
It's really quite stupendous IMO.

Too bad he missed the stereo LP era by a few years!  I found this general review of his Bruckner recordings:

Quote

Bruckner – After the fire of his best Brahms, Abendroth's Bruckner can seem a bit disappointing, despite the heavy critical praise lavished by others. Abendroth seems to opt for a middle ground of balance and moderation, lacking the tension of Furtwangler, the splendor of Celibidache or the huge emotional wallop of Horenstein. This approach works best in the Fifth (Leipzig RSO 1949, ARL 149) and Seventh (Berlin RSO 1956, Tahra 114) Symphonies, which are consistently superb throughout; both benefit from Abendroth's tidy, small-scaled approach – finely detailed, small-boned and modest – and boast particularly good recordings. His Fourth (Leipzig RSO 1951, ARL 107) has a wonderfully propulsive and improvisatory first movement, but, once having spent all his artistic energy, the rest is pretty standard. An Eighth (Leipzig RSO 1949, Tahra 115) is quite serious and somewhat perfunctory. His Ninth (Leipzig RSO 1951, Berlin Classics 0120 050) inhabits a world strikingly similar to Furtwangler's magnificent 1943 Berlin Philharmonic concert. While it may lack Furtwangler's astounding sense of manic urgency and driven intensity, Abendroth's trademark collisions among blocks of differing tempos, while annoying to some in other repertoire, seems undeniably appropriate here.


See:

http://www.classicalnotes.net/columns/abendweb.html (http://www.classicalnotes.net/columns/abendweb.html)


Concerning certain conductors and their conducting of Bruckner symphonies: G. Dudamel !

Quote

...The choice of Bruckner may prove to be controversial, especially among observers who have not exactly been enamored with the rock star-celebrity aura that has surrounded Dudamel even before he came to the LA Phil. Bruckner the pious, visionary architect of cathedrals of symphonic sound would seem to be at the opposite pole of the things that Dudamel does best — like hard-grooving Latin American concert music, tempestuous new music, Tchaikovsky, and on a good day, Mahler.

Indeed, Dudamel hasn't done much Bruckner; I recall that he led the Symphony No. 7 here back in 2011 and there is a recording of the Symphony No. 9 from his formative years at the Gothenburg Symphony in Sweden. In the Ninth, he took a rather expansive approach, particularly in the third movement, which came off as something less than ecstatic. His Fourth Symphony on Saturday was more in line with other recent performances of Central European repertoire where he has adopted faster speeds, although not outside the norm in this piece.

The ingredients seemed to be in place; the notes were there, things moved along with a steady pulse, the orchestra handled them mostly with precision and in the lyrical second subjects, graciousness. What I didn't hear was any sense of patiently constructed cumulative weight and power in the crescendos and climaxes. Sometimes they would suddenly explode brutally at ear-piercing volume. In the Scherzo, they were rushed to where they sounded frantic at the point of detonation. Maybe Bruckner with sudden hyped-up peaks is more in tune with what the attention spans of the 21st century need — or deserve — but overall, it didn't come close to being an overwhelming, transcendent experience.


My emphasis above.


See:

https://www.sfcv.org/reviews/los-angeles-philharmonic/mixed-results-from-dudamels-pairing-of-bruckner-and-andrew-norman (https://www.sfcv.org/reviews/los-angeles-philharmonic/mixed-results-from-dudamels-pairing-of-bruckner-and-andrew-norman)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on November 16, 2019, 02:09:41 PM
And what did you think of it ?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 16, 2019, 02:35:05 PM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on November 15, 2019, 12:24:00 PM
Given the peculiar way so many of his symphonies involve multiple 'accelerandos' without ever reaching a real climax ?
The coitus interruptus interpretation of Bruckner has been noted. However it doesn't involve accelerandos except in the case of certain very poor conductors.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 16, 2019, 03:23:29 PM
Quote from: André on November 16, 2019, 02:09:41 PM
And what did you think of it ?

I have only had a chance to hear the first movement, which I found to be most excellent, despite the curiosities of YouTube audio.   8)

Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on November 15, 2019, 12:24:00 PM
Given the peculiar way so many of his symphonies involve multiple 'accelerandos' without ever reaching a real climax ?

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 16, 2019, 02:35:05 PM
The coitus interruptus interpretation of Bruckner has been noted. However it doesn't involve accelerandos except in the case of certain very poor conductors.

You remind me of Jochum's DGG recording of the Fifth Symphony, where he slows down the tempo quite a bit for the ending of the fourth movement, apparently wanting to savor every bar as much as possible.      ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Conductors Prove Their Mettle Via Bruckner!
Post by: Cato on November 27, 2019, 08:16:34 AM
From the NY Times:

Quote

...Is Anton Bruckner, an earlier-generation Austrian composer who also wound up in Vienna, edging out Mahler as the symphonist with which to show your stuff? One might have thought so from recent programs presented in New York by two of today's most dynamic and acclaimed younger conductors.

On Friday, Yannick Nézet-Séguin, 44, the music director of the Metropolitan Opera and the Philadelphia Orchestra, brought the other ensemble he leads, the Orchestre Métropolitain of Montreal, to Carnegie Hall with a program featuring Bruckner's Fourth Symphony ("Romantic"). Then, on Sunday afternoon at David Geffen Hall, Gustavo Dudamel, 38, led the Los Angeles Philharmonic in, as it happens, the same symphony....



See:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/27/arts/music/bruckner-symphonies.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/27/arts/music/bruckner-symphonies.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Conductors Prove Their Mettle Via Bruckner!
Post by: André on November 27, 2019, 11:08:29 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 27, 2019, 08:16:34 AM
From the NY Times:


See:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/27/arts/music/bruckner-symphonies.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/27/arts/music/bruckner-symphonies.html)

Thanks for the link, Leo ! YNS and his orchestra played the work in Chicago and Philadelphia too, part of a mini tour of the US. I listened to YNS and the Orchestre métropolitain in the 4th last week (an ATMA disc issued in 2011, I believe). Its brass section then - the horns in particular - was gorgeous. The Romantic is certainly a good work for them to shine in.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 04, 2019, 05:45:50 AM
A review of a performance of Bruckner's Fourth Symphony in San Francisco conducted by Manfred Honeck:

An excerpt:


Quote

...Honeck was on much firmer ground with his reading of Bruckner's symphony. In this case, imparting energy and providing clear, large-scale connections is important: Bruckner is a discursive composer and Symphony No. 4 is over an hour long. The brass is taxed heavily in this score and SF Symphony's group, from principal Robert Ward down to fourth horn Jessica Valeri, shone....


See:

https://www.sfcv.org/reviews/san-francisco-symphony/sf-symphony-brass-shine-in-bruckners-fourth (https://www.sfcv.org/reviews/san-francisco-symphony/sf-symphony-brass-shine-in-bruckners-fourth)

What think ye of the highlighted section? 

Does the reviewer mean to state facts or is he gently complaining?    ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on December 04, 2019, 09:29:24 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 04, 2019, 05:45:50 AM

Does the reviewer mean to state facts or is he gently complaining?    ;)

I've seen "professional" critics dismiss Bruckner as a complete fraud, so "discursive" is not too worrisome.   He does seem discursive if you are not that familiar with the symphonies.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 04, 2019, 10:34:07 AM
Quote from: Daverz on December 04, 2019, 09:29:24 AM
I've seen "professional" critics dismiss Bruckner as a complete fraud, so "discursive" is not too worrisome.   He does seem discursive if you are not that familiar with the symphonies.

WOW!  "A complete fraud" !  Do you recall who wrote that and why?


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 04, 2019, 10:59:58 AM
The antipathy that Bruckner still arises in some critics and listeners is incomprehensible. The same was the case with Mahler in the mid C20 when his music was first making its way into concerts on on to disk, but that antipathy seemed to die down quite quickly. I don't know why it hasn't with Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on December 04, 2019, 11:45:45 AM
Some things are acquired tastes. There is nothing wrong with that. Bruckner was  controversial from the beginning although around 60 years ago his music  apparently already was hugely successful in Austria and mostly respected in Germany but a small niche almost everywhere else. This changed with recordings to some extent but I think Bruckner is still not as big in slavic countries as in Germanic countries and even less popular in Italy, France and Spain. So what?
It's the same (or actually far more local) with Elgar and one will find more examples.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on December 04, 2019, 01:46:37 PM
The Atlanta Symphony also performed Bruckner's 4th in the past month, conducted by I believe Donald Runnicles. I am not sure why this symphony is getting so much love lately, but it's a good one, one of the few of Bruckner's symphonies that I really enjoy, but I am new to his music.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 04, 2019, 01:58:05 PM
A voice from the past:

Quote

"(Bruckner's latest symphony) is the eighth in the series and similar to its predecessors in form and mood.  (Sic!)  I found this newest one, as I have found the other Bruckner symphonies, interesting in detail, but strange as a whole and even repugnant.  The nature of the work consists...in applying Wagner's dramatic style to the symphony.

(Comparing the opening to the beginning of Tristan und Isolde)...Bruckner begins with a short chromatic motif repeats it ...into infinity, augments it...offers it in contrary motion...until the listener is crushed under the sheer weight and monotony of this interminable lamentation...Wagnerian orchestral effects are met on every hand...(along with) the newest achievements of the Siegfried tubas....

...Also characteristic (of this work) is the immediate juxtaposition of dry schoolroom counterpoint with unbounded exaltation.  Thus tossed about between intoxication and desolation, we arrive at no definite impression and enjoy no artistic pleasure.  Everything flows without clarity and without order... into dismal long-windedness....

...In each of the four movements, and most frequently in the first and third, there are interesting passages and flashes of genius - if only all the rest were not there!

...(Probably) the future belongs to this type of muddled hangover style - which is no reason to regard the future with envy!...

And the reception of the new symphony?  A stormy ovation, waving of handkerchiefs...innumerable recalls... For Bruckner the concert was certainly a huge success.  Whether (conductor) Hans Richter performed a similar favor for his subscribers by devoting an entire concert to the Bruckner symphony is doubtful..."


Eduard Hanslick 1892 - Translation by Henry Pleasants.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on December 04, 2019, 02:43:58 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on December 04, 2019, 10:59:58 AM
The antipathy that Bruckner still arises in some critics and listeners is incomprehensible. The same was the case with Mahler in the mid C20 when his music was first making its way into concerts on on to disk, but that antipathy seemed to die down quite quickly. I don't know why it hasn't with Bruckner.

Because the two composers had absolutely nothing in common, other than a tendency to large-scale 'symphonic' music.  One has currently gained more approval than the other, rightly or wrongly, that is just fashion.  20 years on, it might be very different.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 04, 2019, 03:01:22 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on December 04, 2019, 02:43:58 PM
Because the two composers had absolutely nothing in common, other than a tendency to large-scale 'symphonic' music.  One has currently gained more approval than the other, rightly or wrongly, that is just fashion.  20 years on, it might be very different.


Quote from: Cato on December 04, 2019, 01:58:05 PM
A voice from the past:

Eduard Hanslick 1892 - Translation by Henry Pleasants.

I was skimming through the Hanslick book, and he makes some interesting comments about Rossini's version of Othello (c. 1817) along with the original Shakespeare play.  Hanslick says that Rossini's original version followed Shakespeare, which faithfulness caused a huge outcry against the work.  The composer had to change the work so that the opera ended with Desdemona and Othello reconciling and singing a happy-ending love duet!  Hanslick adds that a similar occurrence happened in Hamburg after a performance of the play.  "So many women fainted" because of the strangulation scene, that the Hamburg Senate decreed that further performances would be required to have a happy ending!

Talk about snowflakes!   0:)

Hanslick adds that things had changed throughout the century, and nobody in his day (1880's at the time) would think of changing Shakespeare's plays.

I should mention that Hanslick liked The Mikado of Gilbert and Sullivan and much admired the English genius for comedy shown in the work and in its performance by the singers and actors.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on December 04, 2019, 06:45:42 PM
Quote from: Cato on December 04, 2019, 10:34:07 AM
WOW!  "A complete fraud" !  Do you recall who wrote that and why?

I feel a bit sheepish to admit I was reading Lynn René Bayley's blog (The Art Music Lounge).  You can google if you are curious. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on December 05, 2019, 12:23:10 AM
In my personal impression both Mahler's and Bruckner's music have become far more popular, actually pretty much core repertoire (except for maybe Bruckner's 00-2 and alternative versions and maybe Mahler's 8th because of the forces needed) within the 3 decades I followed classical music. When I started listening around 1987 as a teenager, both were of course not obscure but not quite standard fare either. One would see introductory series (or say musical history overviews in middle/high school) that skipped both and went from Brahms and Dvorak to R. Strauss, Debussy and Stravinsky.

I think there are still many listeners who don't care all that much about Bruckner (and/or Mahler). But they are popular with conductors and orchestras because one can demonstrate prowess in several departments without resorting to "shallow sonic spectacular" (like Rimsky ;). And for similar reasons the music is popular with audiophiles. And I also think that the nerdy males who dominate internet discussions have also considerable overlap with Bruckner/Mahler fandom.
So from recordings and the internet one can get the impression that almost everybody just loves Bruckner (or Mahler). But this is not the case. There is no composer/music loved by everyone, not even Bach or Beethoven.

And of course, they are totally different. There is no need to hate or love both.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 06, 2019, 06:21:16 PM
A concert probably impossible when both composers were alive:

Brahms: Piano Concerto #2

Bruckner
: Symphony #5

https://www.youtube.com/v/yOa0cxBVUP4
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on December 06, 2019, 06:47:45 PM
Has anyone heard any of this box yet?

(https://www.berliner-philharmoniker-recordings.com/media/catalog/product/cache/12/thumbnail/960x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/b/p/bphr_bruckner_edition_cover_rgb.jpg)

I assume the Rattle 9 is the same one that was on EMI.  So far I've listened to the Mehta 8, which seemed a bit polite, and the Paavo Järvi 2, which I liked: very clear-eyed.  The Ozawa 1 should be interesting, and the Blomstedt 3 is the 1873 version.  Haitink conducts 4 & 5, Jansons conducts 6, and Thielemann conducts 7.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 07, 2019, 01:55:48 AM
Quote from: Daverz on December 06, 2019, 06:47:45 PM
Has anyone heard any of this box yet?

(https://www.berliner-philharmoniker-recordings.com/media/catalog/product/cache/12/thumbnail/960x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/b/p/bphr_bruckner_edition_cover_rgb.jpg)

I assume the Rattle 9 is the same one that was on EMI.  So far I've listened to the Mehta 8, which seemed a bit polite, and the Paavo Järvi 2, which I liked: very clear-eyed.  The Ozawa 1 should be interesting, and the Blomstedt 3 is the 1873 version.  Haitink conducts 4 & 5, Jansons conducts 6, and Thielemann conducts 7.

Interesting set!

The Simon Rattle version: is that the one with the completed Finale?  If, so it is beyond excellent, almost on the level of Saint Eugen's !   0:) :D

Paavo Järvi also has an excellent recording on RCA of the Hans Rott Symphony.  I heard part of his work on the Bruckner Second Symphony
on the radio and was impressed.

Christian Thielemann's conducting of Schoenberg's Pelleas und Melisande on DGG is one of the best available.  So I would think a Bruckner Seventh Symphony would have great potential!


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on December 07, 2019, 07:42:18 AM
Speaking of interesting sets, a few nights ago I received the SACD box sets of Karajan's performances on DG of Symphonies Nos. 4-9 (plus the Te Deum) and, so far, I've only listened to Symphony No. 9. It sounds absolutely fantastic! My only hope is they take this DSD transfer and release it in single issues or have they done this already? I might have to look into it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 19, 2019, 04:58:16 PM
Courtesy of an interview with John Kinsella, composer from Ireland, found under his topic:

Quote

He (Kinsella) struggled with Bruckner, too: "I can stand back from a Bruckner symphony now, and appreciate it in the whole, and know what he's doing. The effect can be totally overwhelming. I think Bruckner symphonies are, if you like, the ideal symphony, because they do say something very important and very profound, and even manage to get very trite ideas in, but they're in the right place, in the right mixture."


https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/music/2.749/a-lifetime-of-obsession-with-symphonies-1.497868 (https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/music/2.749/a-lifetime-of-obsession-with-symphonies-1.497868)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 21, 2019, 07:27:24 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 19, 2019, 04:58:16 PM
Courtesy of an interview with John Kinsella, composer from Ireland, found under his topic:

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/music/2.749/a-lifetime-of-obsession-with-symphonies-1.497868 (https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/music/2.749/a-lifetime-of-obsession-with-symphonies-1.497868)

one of the greatest living symphonists! some really marvelous works among his output!!! Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 01, 2020, 12:02:18 PM
The Bruckner Red Book: Eleven Symphonies

"Up to this day the various scores have attracted strong partisanship among both conductors and enthusiasts, even though in all that time there has not been a general guide to the differences among them. As a result, the Bruckner Society of America is announcing the publication of Anton Bruckner, Eleven Symphonies, called the Bruckner Red Book, which is intended as a response to that need. In it the individual revision histories of each symphony, the overture, and the quartet and quintet are discussed in detail, and musical examples are provided which show the distinctions being described. In addition the innovative use in every example of quick recognition codes leading to on-line audio tracks makes the musical content open to those who do not read music." (Book is by William Carrigan)

I've ordered my copy at https://brucknerredbook.com
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 01, 2020, 02:44:01 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 01, 2020, 12:02:18 PM
The Bruckner Red Book: Eleven Symphonies

"Up to this day the various scores have attracted strong partisanship among both conductors and enthusiasts, even though in all that time there has not been a general guide to the differences among them. As a result, the Bruckner Society of America is announcing the publication of Anton Bruckner, Eleven Symphonies, called the Bruckner Red Book, which is intended as a response to that need. In it the individual revision histories of each symphony, the overture, and the quartet and quintet are discussed in detail, and musical examples are provided which show the distinctions being described. In addition the innovative use in every example of quick recognition codes leading to on-line audio tracks makes the musical content open to those who do not read music." (Book is by William Carrigan)

I've ordered my copy at https://brucknerredbook.com

That would seem to be a must-have!  Carragan tried his hand at a completion of the Finale of the Ninth Symphony.  I am amazed that a regular publishing company did not sponsor this, but....their loss! 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Herman on January 03, 2020, 11:29:19 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 05, 2019, 12:23:10 AM
In my personal impression both Mahler's and Bruckner's music have become far more popular, actually pretty much core repertoire (except for maybe Bruckner's 00-2 and alternative versions and maybe Mahler's 8th because of the forces needed) within the 3 decades I followed classical music.
[...]

I think there are still many listeners who don't care all that much about Bruckner (and/or Mahler). But they are popular with conductors and orchestras because one can demonstrate prowess in several departments without resorting to "shallow sonic spectacular" (like Rimsky ;). And for similar reasons the music is popular with audiophiles. And I also think that the nerdy males who dominate internet discussions have also considerable overlap with Bruckner/Mahler fandom.
So from recordings and the internet one can get the impression that almost everybody just loves Bruckner (or Mahler). But this is not the case. There is no composer/music loved by everyone, not even Bach or Beethoven.

Mahler of course is very popular, because of the emotional appeal and the orchestra spectacle.
Bruckner has neither and I don't think much changed in his popularity. He's still very much at the mercy of conductors who champion his work.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on January 03, 2020, 12:17:09 PM
This does not at all agree with my impression of the last 30 years I followed classical music (and what I heard/read about the 30 years before that). When I started buying CDs in 1988 in a typical German CD store you had about three options for a Bruckner symphony (maybe a few more for 4, 7-9), Jochum, Karajan, Wand. For the alternative versions there was one (Inbal) or none.  Within these 30 years the Bruckner recordings grew exponentially, especially the choices for the ur- or alternative versions.
And of course, Bruckner has huge emotional appeal for some people and while spectactular only for the brass, it's certainly more spectacular than Haydn or Schumann...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 04, 2020, 05:42:30 AM
The Columbus Symphony is playing Bruckner's Seventh Symphony this weekend, along with a Cello Concerto by an American cellist named Joshua Roman, whom the advertising describes as "mercurial."  0:)

It is unclear yet whether we will be able to attend.

The orchestra's conductor hails from Bulgaria: Rossen Milanov.  He has done well in my previous visits.

https://columbussymphony.com/events/calendar/profile.dT/peaks-of-beauty-and-devotion (https://columbussymphony.com/events/calendar/profile.dT/peaks-of-beauty-and-devotion)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 06, 2020, 08:31:58 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 05, 2019, 12:23:10 AM
In my personal impression both Mahler's and Bruckner's music have become far more popular, actually pretty much core repertoire ...

Bruckner Symphonies, any given year, is more often programmed in Vienna than Beethoven Sys! So yes. He's come a long way!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 06, 2020, 12:33:35 PM
For many years, right up until the mid seventies I think, the Vienna Symphony (the Symphoniker) played Bruckner far more often than their colleagues at the Philharmonic (the WP).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 07, 2020, 02:17:20 AM
Quote from: André on March 06, 2020, 12:33:35 PM
For many years, right up until the mid-seventies I think, the Vienna Symphony (the Symphoniker) played Bruckner far more often than their colleagues at the Philharmonic (the WP).

I don't have the statistics on that; it's certainly true for Mahler (where I do have the statistics), where the Vienna renaissance really started with Bruno Walter's performance of the 2nd with the VSO in 1953, not only with Lennie dragging the VPO into it.

I'd like to say that Bruckner had an earlier start with the VPO, but again... that's just a hunch at this point.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 07, 2020, 05:03:55 AM
One of my high school buddies is a huge Bruckner fan, a regular contributor to John Berky's website. He dug up the information from 1900 onward. I can ask him the stats, it would be interesting.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 07, 2020, 04:19:07 PM
Quote from: André on March 07, 2020, 05:03:55 AM
One of my high school buddies is a huge Bruckner fan, a regular contributor to John Berky's website. He dug up the information from 1900 onward. I can ask him the stats, it would be interesting.

Here's the link in Berky's abruckner.com web site:

https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/listsanddata/houlegilles/ (https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/listsanddata/houlegilles/)

WS Bruckner performances consistently outnumbered those from the WP until the mid 1990s. The trend started right from the beginning (1900) under WS founder Ferdinand Löwe, a Bruckner pupil and advocate.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 13, 2020, 12:52:03 PM
A review of this recording elsewhere reminded me of this one from August in The Wall Street Journal
:

Excerpts:

Quote

...

Recorded live at Heinz Hall in Pittsburgh, (Manfred Honeck's) Bruckner Ninth is a wondrous achievement. Telling moments abound: the lyrical episodes in the opening movement that seemingly float in the air, the triumphant nobility the conductor summons at the first movement's conclusion, the tonal colors he coaxes from the strings throughout—early in his career, Mr. Honeck was a violist with the Vienna Philharmonic—to name a few

...Mr. Honeck, also Catholic, brings his familiarity with the liturgy to his interpretation. For example, he envisions the third movement as based on the traditional Latin Mass "Agnus Dei" (Lamb of God) and provides his reasons in detailed liner notes. Others could easily hypothesize different underlying scenarios, but this peek under the hood shows how one conductor developed his concept of a score through repeated study and personal reflection. Helpful track timings are provided to help interested listeners follow along.....
..




See:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/demystifying-bruckners-ninth-11566329399 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/demystifying-bruckners-ninth-11566329399)

Has anyone heard this recording?  What say ye?   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on March 13, 2020, 12:55:26 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 13, 2020, 12:52:03 PM
Has anyone heard [Honeck's Bruckner 9] recording?  What say ye?   0:)

It's fantastic. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 15, 2020, 03:18:00 PM
Quote from: Daverz on March 13, 2020, 12:55:26 PM
It's fantastic.

+1 - a triumphant combination of superb playing, glorious recording and a visionary interpretation.....
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 15, 2020, 03:25:35 PM
I was very impressed too, but the impression that lingers is one of 'in your face' directness, as if I was stared at intently for 60 minutes.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on March 16, 2020, 09:01:55 AM
Quote from: Daverz on March 13, 2020, 12:55:26 PM
It's fantastic.

It's top of the tree, for me.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 21, 2020, 03:50:11 PM
Cross-posted from the WAYL2 thread:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51GdyFA9gVL._AC_.jpg)

Since no useful info is to be gleaned from the cover, here it is:

- Nitsch (that's his name): Für Anton Bruckner, a 23 minute work for solo organ.
- Bruckner: symphony no 5.

The European Philharmonic Orchestra is conducted by Pierre-Jean Marthé. Both works were played and recorded in the Stiftsbasilika Ottobeuren, in Bavaria, on August 7, 2007.

The organ work is a static, uneventful affair.

Marthé leads a somnambulistic performance and retouches the score here and there (cymbals and triangle in the slow movement). There is almost no sense of forward motion. Marthé's Bruckner exists in a far away place where music notes practice social distancing. I suspect he set out to out-zen Celibidache. 3 of the 4 movements are longer than Celi's longest performance. Conductor and orchestra shake the heavens in the coda (cymbal clashes again).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on April 08, 2020, 05:51:28 PM

A curiosity, the symphony of a childhood friend of Bruckner's, Ignaz Dorn. Dorn called the work : « Labyrinth-Bilder oder Traum und Erwachen. Characteristische Sinfonie. » (Labyrinth Images or Dream and Awakening. Characteristic Symphony.)

It is interpreted by the renowned Bruckner conductor, Takashi Asahina. The sound is so-so, but I think it's worth a hearing. The duration is 27 minutes and the music is packed with colour and drama.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AlYZJvl5Uw&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AlYZJvl5Uw&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on April 22, 2020, 12:32:17 PM
Is it heresy, if I find that Herreweghe leading l'Orchestre des Champs-Élysées may be my favorite account of the Fourth?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 22, 2020, 12:38:52 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 22, 2020, 12:32:17 PM
Is it heresy, if I find that Herreweghe leading l'Orchestre des Champs-Élysées may be my favorite account of the Fourth?

Yes. Karajan EMI or Celi should be your favorite  >:(

Sarge  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 01, 2020, 03:39:45 AM
John Berky's website has this picture on its welcome page:

(http://www.abruckner.com/getimage.asp?id=/editorsnote/newsletter-may-1-2020/&filename=AB_Mask.jpg&mode=6)

And, more importantly, the download of the month for May 2020 is the 4th symphony under Gerd Albrecht (Czech Philharmonic Orchestra).

Flac files available here:
https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/May20/ (https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/May20/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 02, 2020, 08:18:31 AM
Quote from: André on May 01, 2020, 03:39:45 AM
John Berky's website has this picture on its welcome page:

(http://www.abruckner.com/getimage.asp?id=/editorsnote/newsletter-may-1-2020/&filename=AB_Mask.jpg&mode=6)

And, more importantly, the download of the month for May 2020 is the 4th symphony under Gerd Albrecht (Czech Philharmonic Orchestra).

Flac files available here:
https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/May20/ (https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/May20/)

Thanks for the heads up re the download.  I heard the Czech PO perform Bruckner 7 live in the Rudolfinum with Inbal a few years backs - their sound really suits this music.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 02, 2020, 10:18:10 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 02, 2020, 08:18:31 AM
Thanks for the heads up re the download.  I heard the Czech PO perform Bruckner 7 live in the Rudolfinum with Inbal a few years backs - their sound really suits this music.

As for me, I heard Albrecht conduct the original version of the 8th in Brussels (not with the CzPO), and I can attest he is a good brucknerian. So, if you combine the two, it's a tempting proposition !  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on May 02, 2020, 04:54:32 PM
Thoughts on this?

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/20/39/4526977003920_600.jpg)

$4 on Qobuz. Sounding pretty good to my ears.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on May 08, 2020, 02:13:57 AM
Quote from: Dowder on May 07, 2020, 04:56:24 PM
Listening to the 7th today and realized how much I prefer the second and third movements of his symphonies more than the first and fourth movements (not counting the unfinished ninth). If he only wrote a symphony with two movements it still would have worked for all the Bruckerian majesty and wonder he conjured up.

I love the first movement of the 7th. Might even be my favorite Brucknerian Allegro. The Adagio is too heavy and emotional for me to get through sometimes. I usually turn it off after the 2nd movement. But I would agree that as a rule he wrote some damn fine adagios and scherzos. The change of tone from the Allegro to the Andante in the 4th is always so striking in its contrast. One of the high points of the symphony for me.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Herman on May 09, 2020, 06:49:04 AM
The finales are intended to be the crown and climax of these symphonies.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on May 09, 2020, 08:33:06 AM
The Finale of the 7th is very uncommon for Bruckner because it is very short and condensed (for Brucknerian scales). I admittedly find some other Bruckner finales overambitious and somewhat overblown, that's why the 7th is one of my favorites (although mostly because of the wonderful first two movements, both also uncommonly rich in melodies).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 09, 2020, 11:58:33 AM
Interesting to read these takes on the Bruckner 7th.

It's always been one of my 3 or 4 favorite Bruckner symphonies. But I think it's kind of unbalanced, because the two opening movements are much "heavier" than the two following movements. Another odd thing about it is that it's the only famous symphony I can think of in E major. I wonder why symphonic composers tend to shun this key.

One possible way of rectifying the unbalance is to play the first movement faster, and I wonder why this isn't done more often. After all, it's Allegro moderato, not Moderato. This suggests to me it should come in around 17-18 minutes, rather than the 20+ we usually get.

On that subject: has any1 here heard Ormandy/Phila. recording of the 7th? Much faster than usual timings, with the 1st mvt. under 18 minutes.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on May 09, 2020, 12:49:00 PM
I have not heard the Ormandy, but Horenstein, Gielen, Rosbaud (I think also Bruno Walter and others) are around 18-19 min. I also think that balance among movements is somewhat overrated (although it is probably true that this apparent imbalance is exaggerated because 18 min first and 19-20 min second movements in the 7ths are rare and we often get 21 and 25 min). In fact Bruckner is here not so far from Haydn and Mozart where Menuet and finale are usually far shorter than the first two movements. But he himself had written some huge finales in his 4th and 5th (the one in the 3rd was cut almost down to half in the last version) and there was to follow another big one in the 8th. The sixth has also a more compact finale, though I find it a considerably weaker movement (while I like the scherzo of the 6th better and the first two almost as much as the ones from the 7th).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 09, 2020, 01:29:53 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 09, 2020, 12:49:00 PM
In fact Bruckner is here not so far from Haydn and Mozart where Menuet and finale are usually far shorter than the first two movements.

Yeah, that's a good point. Maybe it just feels unbalanced to me because it's so much bigger than a Haydn or Mozart symphony.

I suspect conductors just like to milk that great long melody at the beginning for all it's worth, and this slows down the whole movement.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on May 09, 2020, 01:46:49 PM
I think that the difficulties for wind and brass with more remote keys created a tradition that made four or more accidentals from the beginning rare even in the mid/late 19th century symphonies when these instruments were more advanced and could in theory play almost any key. There seems also only one famous A flat major symphony, by Elgar. There are more in f minor but the "flat keys" tend to have more secondary passages/movements in key with fewer accidentals because of their dominant, tonic major etc.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 09, 2020, 01:54:37 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 09, 2020, 01:46:49 PM
I think that the difficulties for wind and brass with more remote keys created a tradition that made four or more accidentals from the beginning rare even in the mid/late 19th century symphonies when these instruments were more advanced and could in theory play almost any key. There seems also only one famous A flat major symphony, by Elgar. There are more in f minor but the "flat keys" tend to have more secondary passages/movements in key with fewer accidentals because of their dominant, tonic major etc.

That sounds plausible. I was thinking of that Elgar symphony myself; a similar case I suppose. And I can't think of *any* symphony in B major or G# minor (5 accidentals).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 09, 2020, 02:42:55 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 09, 2020, 11:58:33 AM
Interesting to read these takes on the Bruckner 7th.

It's always been one of my 3 or 4 favorite Bruckner symphonies. But I think it's kind of unbalanced, because the two opening movements are much "heavier" than the two following movements. Another odd thing about it is that it's the only famous symphony I can think of in E major. I wonder why symphonic composers tend to shun this key.

One possible way of rectifying the unbalance is to play the first movement faster, and I wonder why this isn't done more often. After all, it's Allegro moderato, not Moderato. This suggests to me it should come in around 17-18 minutes, rather than the 20+ we usually get.

On that subject: has any1 here heard Ormandy/Phila. recording of the 7th? Much faster than usual timings, with the 1st mvt. under 18 minutes.

I've also come to think that the finale of the 7th needs another few minutes of development in the middle to make it a little longer and more substantial. This was a surprise to me because I'd found that Bruckner's movements were always well-proportioned and exactly the right length (in the original versions of course   ;)*).

I think in Bruckner the idea of fast and slow performances are misleading, it matters in music were there is poor musical movement that conductors don't wallow. But Bruckner has the secret of musical movement and so it doesn't matter how slow the tempo is, the music still moves (cf Celibadache).

* Except 4 and 8  ;) ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on May 09, 2020, 02:44:36 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 09, 2020, 01:54:37 PM
That sounds plausible. I was thinking of that Elgar symphony myself; a similar case I suppose. And I can't think of *any* symphony in B major or G# minor (5 accidentals).

Shostakovich's 2nd is in B major. Mahler's 10th is in F-sharp major, 6 sharps.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mahlerian on May 09, 2020, 05:48:03 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 09, 2020, 01:54:37 PM
That sounds plausible. I was thinking of that Elgar symphony myself; a similar case I suppose. And I can't think of *any* symphony in B major or G# minor (5 accidentals).

There's a Haydn Symphony in B major, No. 46.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on May 09, 2020, 11:59:16 PM
And Haydn #46 is a great piece, one of the best of the early 1770s that also has the "cyclic" device of the menuetto theme recurring later in the finale. Haydn also has symphonies in E major (12, 29), f minor (49), f sharp minor (45), but they are of course string dominated with only horns/oboes.
Glazunov's first two are in E major and f# minor, also cf. Tchaikovsky's famous b flat minor piano concerto
I think by the early 20th century, composers had embraced the remote keys (hardly surprising when others got rid of home keys altogether).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2020, 12:18:01 AM
Here, apropos of nothing, are my favourite Bruckner symphonies in order:
No 8 and No 9
No 5
No 3
No 6
No 7
No 4
No 2
No 1
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 10, 2020, 06:12:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 10, 2020, 12:18:01 AM
Here, apropos of nothing, are my favourite Bruckner symphonies in order:
No 8 and No 9
No 5
No 3
No 6
No 7
No 4
No 2
No 1

Where does Die Nullte fit in?

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mahlerian on May 10, 2020, 06:33:49 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 09, 2020, 11:59:16 PMI think by the early 20th century, composers had embraced the remote keys (hardly surprising when others got rid of home keys altogether).

Which reminds me, Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony No. 2 is in E-flat minor (six flats!).


Anyway, to the person above who prefers the revised versions of the Fourth and Eighth, I'm inclined to say I generally agree, but would argue the original version of the Fourth is a lot better than people give it credit for, and its first movement has quite a few interesting features which were ironed out of the more straightforward revision.

That said, the coda of the finale is incomparably improved by being a gradual crescendo rather than fortissimo throughout...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2020, 07:23:10 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 10, 2020, 06:12:11 AM
Where does Die Nullte fit in?

Sarge
Don't really know that one Sarge and I don't think it appears in any of my Bruckner boxed sets.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 10, 2020, 09:42:06 AM
I spent the morning listening to the Klemperer/Philharmonia 7th. This was a good way to spend the morning, because I think this performance is near-ideal. Klemp really does balance the symphony well. The timing of the 1st mvt. is 19:48, not fast really, but it flows very nicely. The finale has more weight, and its coda actually sounds like an evocation of the 1st mvt. coda, which I think is how it's supposed to sound. Plus, like most Philharmonia recordings of that vintage, it just sounds gorgeous throughout.

This doesn't seem to get as much love as Klemp's 6th with the same forces, but I think it's just as good.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on May 21, 2020, 04:52:36 PM
Slowly but surely I'm getting more into the music of Anton Bruckner. Mostly it's his symphonies that capture my interest lately; the most interesting of the bunch to me are 3, 4, 5, 7 & 9, though I consider all 9 to be great. I have frequently heard the criticism leveled against Bruckner that he is inconsistent, but I actually disagree and find him to be extremely consistent; if you like one symphony, you'll probably like them all.

I'm looking to get more into his non-symphonic music. In this realm it seems he is most known for his sacred music, though he did leave behind several chamber works (any Lieder? music for a solo instrument?—I know he didn't leave behind much organ music despite his great stature in his lifetime as an organist; anything else?). I have Jochum on DG for most of the sacred works on 2 CDs, the 3 Masses on one & the Te Deum, motets & Psalm 150 on another. Both are very good, though I owe it to myself to spend more time with the masses.

Is anyone here a fan of the String Quintet?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on May 22, 2020, 12:01:11 AM
I like the string quintet. It is symphonic in scale but not quite as sprawling as some of the symphonies. It was written between the 6h and 7th, I think, so it is a mature piece (unlike a string quartet that was a student piece and only premiered in the 1950s or so).
I'ts been a while that I listened to the choral music. The best piece is probably the "Te Deum" but the masses etc. are all worthwhile. The most original one is the second one in e minor with only wind/brass instead of orchestra and a kind of romanticized Palestrina style for the choir.
(I have "Helgoland" on disc but not sure if I ever listened to it, I have no recollection.)

There are recordings of (early?) piano music but I have never heard any

[asin]B01KAR0YD0[/asin][asin]B000001RXW[/asin]
[asin]B07S98JQ3S[/asin][asin]B07BYWVLZK[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on May 22, 2020, 02:33:00 AM
^Fascinating. I'll definitely be exploring that piano music to see if anything of worth is buried in it. And most definitely going to be tracking down the quintet.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 22, 2020, 02:56:03 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 21, 2020, 04:52:36 PM
Slowly but surely I'm getting more into the music of Anton Bruckner. Mostly it's his symphonies that capture my interest lately; the most interesting of the bunch to me are 3, 4, 5, 7 & 9, though I consider all 9 to be great. I have frequently heard the criticism leveled against Bruckner that he is inconsistent, but I actually disagree and find him to be extremely consistent; if you like one symphony, you'll probably like them all.

I'm looking to get more into his non-symphonic music. In this realm it seems he is most known for his sacred music, though he did leave behind several chamber works (any Lieder? music for a solo instrument?—I know he didn't leave behind much organ music despite his great stature in his lifetime as an organist; anything else?). I have Jochum on DG for most of the sacred works on 2 CDs, the 3 Masses on one & the Te Deum, motets & Psalm 150 on another. Both are very good, though I owe it to myself to spend more time with the masses.

Is anyone here a fan of the String Quintet?


I have never understood the "inconsistent" charge: each symphony  shows movement into new territory, and yet maintains a style which is very consistent.

Yes, it is most curious that he did not compose more - much more - for the organ.  Yet I believe the symphony orchestra was his church organ: scholars have remarked upon Bruckner's orchestration and how it resembles the organ's registration.

The String Quintet is excellent: some have orchestrated it for a string orchestra:

https://www.youtube.com/v/1i8JdhN1EsA
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 22, 2020, 05:53:36 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 22, 2020, 12:01:11 AM
I like the string quintet. It is symphonic in scale but not quite as sprawling as some of the symphonies. It was written between the 6h and 7th, I think, so it is a mature piece (unlike a string quartet that was a student piece and only premiered in the 1950s or so).
I'ts been a while that I listened to the choral music. The best piece is probably the "Te Deum" but the masses etc. are all worthwhile. The most original one is the second one in e minor with only wind/brass instead of orchestra and a kind of romanticized Palestrina style for the choir.
(I have "Helgoland" on disc but not sure if I ever listened to it, I have no recollection.)

There are recordings of (early?) piano music but I have never heard any



Frankly, if you don't recall it, it's because you probably didn't hear it.  ;)

Helgoland is Bruckner's last complete work and it packs enormous punch. I've heard a few versions and I find it's one of the rare instances where one interpreter clearly grabs the work and runs away with it, leaving others trailing far behind:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61QyHJpyCNL.jpg)

Morris is sweeping and engulfing, achieving infinite grandeur at the peroration.


Edit: the pic above represents the coupled work, Wagner's Love Feast of the Apostles. Here's what Helgoland is actually about:

(http://www.artnet.com/WebServices/images/ll01030lld20MJFg3JECfDrCWvaHBOcKN9E/patrick-von-kalckreuth-helgoland.jpg)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on May 22, 2020, 06:45:47 AM
I know what Helgoland is, although I have not been there (it is a somewhat popular day cruise from several north sea coast tourist locations). My recording is Barenboim/DG as filler for the "Nullte".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 22, 2020, 08:58:27 AM
I'm sure you know what it is, but I suspect it's not the case with many. ;) I wanted to show the rough sea and the craggy cliffs depicted in the text. I couldn't find one with the invading Roman fleet, though  :D.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on May 23, 2020, 06:33:34 AM
Helgoland is awesome. I have the Barenboim/Berlin Philharmonic recording, though that Wyn Morris looks intriguing. I've never heard of that Wagner piece.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 23, 2020, 12:47:51 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 23, 2020, 06:33:34 AM
Helgoland is awesome. I have the Barenboim/Berlin Philharmonic recording, though that Wyn Morris looks intriguing. I've never heard of that Wagner piece.

Both Barenboim versions (Chicago and Berlin) as well as the one On Profil (can't remember the conductor's name) take it too fast. The engulfing opening waves of sound are much more awe inspiring under Morris. Bruckner's depiction of the mighty waves make much more effect when taken at this more imposing pace. It's thrilling no end.

The Wagner is a curious but very rewarding work. It depicts the day of Pentecost. The first 25 minutes are capella singing from the choir. Then, when the Holy Ghost appears, the orchestra ushers in. It all ends in a blaze of glory. Unusual fare, but musically very rewarding. Here too Morris is slower than the competition (Boulez, of all people!). He takes about 34 minutes to Boulez' 26.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 23, 2020, 01:14:30 PM
Helgoland comparison. From youtube.

Listen to the first minute under Barenboim in Berlin (11 mins):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrU0P-sKyIM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrU0P-sKyIM)

Breathless.

.........................

Then listen to Barenboim's earlier take in Chicago (13:50):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvT1tG2zKgw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvT1tG2zKgw)

More breadth, more power.
..........................

Then listen to Wyn Morris in the same extract (15 mins):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CfWAfmRHZw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CfWAfmRHZw)

Breathtaking. The chorus is more imposing in sound, with sharper enunciation, the brass more cutting. You can see the rolling waves of the text:

Quote

On the North Sea's most distant horizon
Ships appear that resemble clouds;
In billowy waves with tension on the sail
The Romans approach the Saxons' isle



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2020, 06:03:40 AM
Quote from: André on May 23, 2020, 01:14:30 PM
Helgoland comparison. From youtube.

I have both Barenboim and Morris. I agree with your conclusions in this comparison. I have a taste for broader tempos in music depicting the sea (e.g., Scheherazade and La Mer where I think Celi rules the waves  ;) ) so my preference for Morris is almost a preordained given.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: knight66 on June 11, 2020, 06:42:51 AM
Bruckner 3rd Symphony: Edition by Peter Jan Marthé, European Philharmonic Orchestra, cond Peter Jan Marthé
Recorded live in St Florian 2005

I searched the site assuming that there might be discussion of this edition and recording. However I only turned up some discussion of this conductor's edition of the 9th. In the 3rd he has conflated all three editions of the score and the adagio becomes the penultimate movement. It has about 30 minutes more playtime than the standard  editions giving an 88 minute performance.

I wondered whether people here had strong views either way on its success. I enjoy it a great deal and prefer it over the other more standard recordings that I have. As far as I know, no one else has made use of the edition, but that could be a copyright issue as much as an artistic choice.

The conductor provides extensive notes, some of which seem quite barking. He seems for example to see deep significance in Bruckner and Freud having lived very close to one another, but not at the same time, he is silent on that key fact.

However, whether he is sound in mind or not, the performance is very powerful and works on its own terms. The youth orchestra sounds terrific and it is good to hear the reverberant acoustic which contained Bruckner as organist.

Mike 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 11, 2020, 11:57:51 AM
I have that and haven't listened to it in years. I just finished listening to it (thanks for suggestion, Mike  ;)).

Aside from the obvious aim to picture Celibidache as a speed merchant, I think he gauged his tempi to the acoustics very neatly. The Stiftsbasilika St Florian is a beast of an acoustic vessel and Marthé lets the phrase ends bloom fully before moving on. At first it sounds as if it is one hair away from being an incompetent stop and go thing. But then one notices how well it works on its own terms, as Mike said.

As for the version used, Marthé's notes mention he has conflated the 1873, 1877 and 1889 versions, using the alternate 1876 Adagio for good measure. Also, he says it would be tedious to mention the places he has retouched, recomposed or re-ochestrated (he added a contrabass tuba and cymbals). In view of the extraordinarily expansive tempi used in the first movement, the decision to cast the scherzo next is not silly at all. Kind of leavens the proceedings. The tempo is quite normal in the scherzo portions of the movement, very slow in the trio. Adds the zany 1877 codetta, something I could have done without.

The conflating and recomposing take place mostly in the Adagio and Finale. It is sometimes well done, the wafts from Tannhäuser noble and powerful about 2/3 of the way through in the adagio. The recomposing is mainly in that last third, where themes from the first movement are grafted into the fabric rather gratuitously. Then there is the finale, where Marthé introduces new, foreign material (nothing from Bruckner) midway through. I don't understand why. The timpani are called in for some African-beat tattoos.

The title of the album is « Bruckner III reloaded ». Indeed. One is in for quite a ride. I guess one could dismiss the whole venture as an ill-advised ego trip, a willful, unnecessary indulgence. I wonder how it would sound with the most obvious excrescences removed. I enjoyed it because what Bruckner did write was all there, meaningfully interpreted. And yes, orchestra and sound are terrific.

I also have his 5th - same orchestra, also recorded in St Florian. It is less extreme (same overall timing as Celi/Munich, no obvious recomposing) although the tendency to stretch and wallow is very much there, too. I didn't listen to his 9th (with his own Finale).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: knight66 on June 11, 2020, 12:08:23 PM
Thanks very much André. I am pretty sure respectable scholars would hold their noses if listening to it. I had previously found the third difficult. I find Mahler's Third difficult too. But I have really enjoyed this extended Bruckner. I am happy with the group of 5ths that I have, and I don't feel I want to explore another completion to the 9th. I like the Rattle, but I also really like those great truncated Three movements. I have not heard this conductor in anything else. I will look and see what other repertoire he has recorded.

Mike
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 11, 2020, 12:34:43 PM
My comments may have come across as somewhat dismissive, but in truth I really enjoyed this. It was necessary to point the obvious extravagances, but actually I find Marthé less textually offensive than, say, Mahler in his version of the Bruckner 4th. All told, an original 'essay'. Let's not forget that the Third is Bruckner's most self-tinkered symphony, so why not ?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: knight66 on June 11, 2020, 01:21:09 PM
André, I did not mean to imply that you had been other than factual and fair. I was thinking of the professional scholars. But like you, I really enjoyed it and it is not as though the other versions are being suppressed

Mike.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 11, 2020, 03:27:58 PM
I know, I know. But I felt I had been a bit dismissive  (succumbing to some scholarly disdain maybe ::)) whereas I had actually quite enjoyed this musical journey  ;).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 14, 2020, 05:08:42 AM
I returned to Sinopoli's Symphony No.8 yesterday.  He was a conductor that seemed to inspire quite a bit of negative comment - or at least comments that dammed with faint praise along the lines of "Symphony 'X' is one of Sinopoli's more successful....".  By my reckoning the Dresden Staatskapelle were not going to suffer any musical fools so they must've reckoned Sinopoli had a thing or two worth saying.  I love the grandeur of his No.8 and for sure the Dresden players sound superb - greatly enjoyed.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 14, 2020, 05:28:46 AM
Quote from: André on May 23, 2020, 01:14:30 PM
Helgoland comparison. From youtube.

Listen to the first minute under Barenboim in Berlin (11 mins):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrU0P-sKyIM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrU0P-sKyIM)

Breathless.

.........................

Then listen to Barenboim's earlier take in Chicago (13:50):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvT1tG2zKgw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvT1tG2zKgw)

More breadth, more power.
..........................

Then listen to Wyn Morris in the same extract (15 mins):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CfWAfmRHZw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CfWAfmRHZw)

Breathtaking. The chorus is more imposing in sound, with sharper enunciation, the brass more cutting. You can see the rolling waves of the text:

For those who don't fancy paying inflated prices - Klassic Haus have coupled the Morris version of Helgoland with a performance of Symphony 6 here;

http://klassichaus.us/Bruckner%3A-Symphony-No--6---Bongartz-LGO.php

(http://klassichaus.us/images/KHCD-2012-043-tray.jpg)

it sounds very well in the 320 kps download version I have.....
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 14, 2020, 08:47:48 AM
This is all the more interesting since Bongartz' 6th is a top choice. Good find !
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on June 20, 2020, 12:33:49 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 14, 2020, 05:28:46 AM
For those who don't fancy paying inflated prices - Klassic Haus have coupled the Morris version of Helgoland with a performance of Symphony 6 here;

http://klassichaus.us/Bruckner%3A-Symphony-No--6---Bongartz-LGO.php

(http://klassichaus.us/images/KHCD-2012-043-tray.jpg)

it sounds very well in the 320 kps download version I have.....

Thanks for that. I just downloaded it. Excited to hear both the Morris Helgoland and the Bongartz 6th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on June 20, 2020, 01:57:41 PM
@André, you are so right, my friend, about this Morris/Symphonica recording. Outstanding. He makes this minor work of Bruckner's sound like seriously important music, and I think the slower tempo is a big part of that. Yet it doesn't sound slow at all. It has a big, fast momentum to it. It's going to be weird going back to the Barenboim now, as I can't imagine this working much faster than here.

Beyond Barenboim and Morris, has anyone else even recorded Helgoland?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mahlerian on June 20, 2020, 04:23:21 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 20, 2020, 01:57:41 PM
@André, you are so right, my friend, about this Morris/Symphonica recording. Outstanding. He makes this minor work of Bruckner's sound like seriously important music, and I think the slower tempo is a big part of that. Yet it doesn't sound slow at all. It has a big, fast momentum to it. It's going to be weird going back to the Barenboim now, as I can't imagine this working much faster than here.

Beyond Barenboim and Morris, has anyone else even recorded Helgoland?

This is the discography I could find (linked to on Abruckner.com):

http://www.abruckner.com/vocal_instrumental_music/php/index.php@pag=228.htm
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on June 20, 2020, 04:52:43 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 20, 2020, 04:23:21 PM
This is the discography I could find (linked to on Abruckner.com):

http://www.abruckner.com/vocal_instrumental_music/php/index.php@pag=228.htm

Thanks. Interesting that the Morris is far and away the slowest. It sounds quite natural at that pace.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on June 21, 2020, 05:59:18 AM
Wow, the Bongartz/Leipzig 6th is incredible!! This is easily one of the greatest Bruckner recordings I've ever heard... I love the crushing brass and the razor sharp strings of the first movement, and the soft, moving lyricism of the slow movement. I never even really liked this symphony all that much, but Bongartz has shown me the light!

Would anyone care to recommend me more Bruckner recordings in this vein? I must hear more... Furthermore, are there any other Bruckner recordings in the Klassic Haus catalog worthy of a listen? I'm thoroughly impressed with the sound...:

http://klassichaus.us/Bruckner%3A-Select-Recordings.php
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 21, 2020, 06:54:24 PM
Glad you enjoyed both recordings, Vers la flamme! True, after Morris it's hard to settle for a fast Helgoland. The opening choir and orchestra salvo has the theme of the rolling waves going from crest to hollow in thrilling fashion. If played fast the physical effect of plunging and cresting is severely diminished.

Another great 6th is Keilberth's with the BP. Glorious brass and strings. More imposing if less passionate than Bongartz. Both are mandatory listening IMO.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on June 22, 2020, 12:57:00 AM
I'm late to this Bongartz party.  Is it the same as the recording in this box?

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7991899--gewandhausorchester-leipzig-legendary-masterworks-recordings
https://www.amazon.com/Leipzig-Gewandhaus-Orchestra-Masterworks-Recordings/dp/B003UBOU4I

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71aX8G-WxsL._SS500_PIPJStripe-Robin-Large-V2,TopLeft,0,0_.jpg)

There are some other interesting things in the box, like a Konwitschny Scotch Symphony (haha) and a Markevitch Pictures.  And how can one not be curious about East German Gershwin?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on June 22, 2020, 05:29:09 AM
Yes, it's the same version. In East Germany, after the death of Konwitschny, the top recording spots were held by Suitner, Kegel and Masur. Bongartz and Rögner didn't have the same exposure despite their superb music making. One of my fave Mahler 6 is by Bongartz.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 22, 2020, 11:00:09 AM
Quote from: Daverz on June 22, 2020, 12:57:00 AM
I'm late to this Bongartz party.  Is it the same as the recording in this box?

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7991899--gewandhausorchester-leipzig-legendary-masterworks-recordings
https://www.amazon.com/Leipzig-Gewandhaus-Orchestra-Masterworks-Recordings/dp/B003UBOU4I

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71aX8G-WxsL._SS500_PIPJStripe-Robin-Large-V2,TopLeft,0,0_.jpg)

There are some other interesting things in the box, like a Konwitschny Scotch Symphony (haha) and a Markevitch Pictures.  And how can one not be curious about East German Gershwin?

From memory - East German Gershwin is very good indeed!  I've collected all kinds of repertoire on the old Berlin Classics label and they are all very fine indeed.  I love the sound of the East German orchestras which I guess was somehow 'preserved' post War by little interaction with the West.  Also, the players would be drawn from a very similar pool of playing/technique so there is a very coherent sound.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on June 22, 2020, 03:02:37 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 22, 2020, 11:00:09 AM
From memory - East German Gershwin is very good indeed!  I've collected all kinds of repertoire on the old Berlin Classics label and they are all very fine indeed.  I love the sound of the East German orchestras which I guess was somehow 'preserved' post War by little interaction with the West.  Also, the players would be drawn from a very similar pool of playing/technique so there is a very coherent sound.

On the other, I also enjoy the sometimes rather rough playing of the Leipzig Radio Orchestra in the exciting Bruckner recordings that Kegel did. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on July 10, 2020, 04:38:45 PM

Direct to disc LP recording of the 7th, Haitink's last appearance with the BP. I recommend watching this video. It's about the object itself, not the performance. ABruckner.com sells it at the special price of 195$ US  :o.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpj1ucFMf34&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpj1ucFMf34&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 10, 2020, 05:28:57 PM
Quote from: André on July 10, 2020, 04:38:45 PM
Direct to disc LP recording of the 7th, Haitink's last appearance with the BP. I recommend watching this video. It's about the object itself, not the performance. ABruckner.com sells it at the special price of 195$ US  :o.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpj1ucFMf34&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpj1ucFMf34&feature=youtu.be)

Ouch! :-\ That's quite a hefty price tag for one performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Your Most Recent Obsession
Post by: Cato on October 04, 2020, 05:22:40 AM
Via a discussion elsewhere: do you "obsess" over any of the symphonies?  i.e.  Do you find yourself listening to a specific symphony (or another work, e.g. Os Iusti ) again and again?

I will admit that I have done this throughout the decades.  ;)

For many years, I will also admit that the Fifth Symphony was not necessarily a first choice.  However, about twenty years ago I heard it in Cleveland with Christoph von Dohnanyi conducting, and I was marveling at why I had ranked the symphony lower!

Right now, I have spent several days listening to it, the legendary Eugen Jochum, Concertgebouw performance from the 1980's.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Your Most Recent Obsession
Post by: MusicTurner on October 04, 2020, 11:46:09 AM
Quote from: Cato on October 04, 2020, 05:22:40 AM
Via a discussion elsewhere: do you "obsess" over any of the symphonies?  i.e.  Do you find yourself listening to a specific symphony (or another work, e.g. Os Iusti ) again and again?

I will admit that I have done this throughout the decades.  ;)

... ... ...

Yes, especially regarding the 9th (at first, mainly Jochum on DG), the 8th (afterwards, for many years, especially Haitinks first DDD recording), and then the 4th ... (several recordings), nowadays the symphonies are more equal to me. But actually, to me, the 9th is the most modern sounding and perhaps complex of the bunch.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Your Most Recent Obsession
Post by: Cato on October 04, 2020, 12:55:05 PM
Quote from: MusicTurner on October 04, 2020, 11:46:09 AM
Yes, especially regarding the 9th (at first, especially Jochum on DG), the 8th (afterwards, for many years, especially Haitinks first DDD recording), and then the 4th ... (several recordings), nowadays the symphonies are more equal to me. But actually, to me, the 9th is the most modern sounding and perhaps complex of the bunch.

True, although the 8th has some very curious pages, especially in the First Movement and the Scherzo. 

And yes again to Jochum's Ninth on DGG!  I am also partial to Simon Rattle's Ninth with the completed Finale.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Your Most Recent Obsession
Post by: Daverz on October 04, 2020, 01:27:15 PM
Quote from: Cato on October 04, 2020, 05:22:40 AM
Via a discussion elsewhere: do you "obsess" over any of the symphonies?  i.e.  Do you find yourself listening to a specific symphony (or another work, e.g. Os Iusti ) again and again?

I will admit that I have done this throughout the decades.  ;)

For many years, I will also admit that the Fifth Symphony was not necessarily a first choice.  However, about twenty years ago I heard it in Cleveland with Christoph von Dohnanyi conducting, and I was marveling at why I had ranked the symphony lower!

Right now, I have spent several days listening to it, the legendary Eugen Jochum, Concertgebouw performance from the 1980's.

You probably know that Dohnanyi recorded the 5th in Cleveland for Decca, a fantastic performance:

[asin]B00000E4X1[/asin]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Your Most Recent Obsession
Post by: Cato on October 04, 2020, 03:03:37 PM
Quote from: Daverz on October 04, 2020, 01:27:15 PM
You probably know that Dohnanyi recorded the 5th in Cleveland for Decca, a fantastic performance:

[asin]B00000E4X1[/asin]


Yes!  Fantastic performance indeed!  Possibly recorded around the time when I attended that concert.

I believe the opener was the Penderecki Viola Concerto, which did not leave much of an impression.   But, as I mentioned above, after listening to that performance in the second half of the concert, the Fifth Symphony rose greatly in my estimation!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on December 27, 2020, 07:30:08 AM
A couple of delightful Christmas gifts!

This one from my girlfriend :

Gerd Schaller's complete recordings of Bruckner's symphonies (spun the 6th symphony as the first test. Quite a strong performance).

The other was a gift from myself:

William Carragan's new book:  Anton Bruckner.  The Eleven Symphonies. Purchased through the Bruckner Society of America.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on December 28, 2020, 06:12:32 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on December 27, 2020, 07:30:08 AM
The other was a gift from myself:

William Carragan's new book:  Anton Bruckner.  The Eleven Symphonies. Purchased through the Bruckner Society of America.

Has anyone else ordered this book or have it? I haven't yet opened it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on December 28, 2020, 05:09:25 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on December 28, 2020, 06:12:32 AM
Has anyone else ordered this book or have it? I haven't yet opened it.

Yes, I have it.  An interesting feature are the QR codes that will play back musical samples on your phone.  I was going to use those and the bluetooth receiver in my headphone amp/DAC to listen to these.  Haven't set aside the time yet.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on December 29, 2020, 04:19:42 AM
Quote from: Daverz on December 28, 2020, 05:09:25 PM
Yes, I have it.  An interesting feature are the QR codes that will play back musical samples on your phone.

Yes, I noticed this as well!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 09, 2021, 08:03:39 AM
In various places I have noticed an increase in interest in the Symphony #1, which I have always found a wonderful work.  Some reviewers and Brucknerians throughout the years have sniffed at it somewhat, which I have never understood.  Eugen Jochum's DGG recording brings out the energy and ebullience in the work.


Anyway, this CD came out about a year ago.


(https://www.abruckner.com/getimage.asp?id=/store/abrucknercomexclus/exclusiveandhardto/symphony-no-1-vienna-version-of-1891-gerd-schaller/&filename=Cover_Profil-190847.jpg&mode=10)

I am not sure whether it is a newer performance, or a re-issue from 2012, which also offered the Symphonies II and III.





See also:

https://www.abruckner.com/store/abrucknercomexclus/exclusiveandhardto/symphony-no-1-vienna-version-of-1891-gerd-schaller/ (https://www.abruckner.com/store/abrucknercomexclus/exclusiveandhardto/symphony-no-1-vienna-version-of-1891-gerd-schaller/)


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Biffo on January 09, 2021, 08:15:21 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 09, 2021, 08:03:39 AM
In various places I have noticed an increase in interest in the Symphony #1, which I have always found a wonderful work.  Some reviewers and Brucknerians throughout the years have sniffed at it somewhat, which I have never understood.  Eugen Jochum's DGG recording brings out the energy and ebullience in the work.


Anyway, this CD came out about a year ago.


(https://www.abruckner.com/getimage.asp?id=/store/abrucknercomexclus/exclusiveandhardto/symphony-no-1-vienna-version-of-1891-gerd-schaller/&filename=Cover_Profil-190847.jpg&mode=10)

I am not sure whether it is a newer performance, or a re-issue from 2012, which also offered the Symphonies II and III.





See also:

https://www.abruckner.com/store/abrucknercomexclus/exclusiveandhardto/symphony-no-1-vienna-version-of-1891-gerd-schaller/ (https://www.abruckner.com/store/abrucknercomexclus/exclusiveandhardto/symphony-no-1-vienna-version-of-1891-gerd-schaller/)

This was the first Bruckner symphony I heard and I have loved it ever since - I still have the LP
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 09, 2021, 09:11:08 AM
# 1 is a cracking work, bursting with energy. My first version and, TBH still my favourite, is Haitink's RCOA.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on January 10, 2021, 04:16:44 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 09, 2021, 08:03:39 AM
In various places I have noticed an increase in interest in the Symphony #1, which I have always found a wonderful work.  Some reviewers and Brucknerians throughout the years have sniffed at it somewhat, which I have never understood.  Eugen Jochum's DGG recording brings out the energy and ebullience in the work.


Anyway, this CD came out about a year ago.


(https://www.abruckner.com/getimage.asp?id=/store/abrucknercomexclus/exclusiveandhardto/symphony-no-1-vienna-version-of-1891-gerd-schaller/&filename=Cover_Profil-190847.jpg&mode=10)

I am not sure whether it is a newer performance, or a re-issue from 2012, which also offered the Symphonies II and III.





See also:

https://www.abruckner.com/store/abrucknercomexclus/exclusiveandhardto/symphony-no-1-vienna-version-of-1891-gerd-schaller/ (https://www.abruckner.com/store/abrucknercomexclus/exclusiveandhardto/symphony-no-1-vienna-version-of-1891-gerd-schaller/)

Leo, it is a newer recording, I believe. The one from 2012 is the early Linz version of 1866.  That's the one that is included in the Schaller box set.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: krummholz on January 10, 2021, 06:06:47 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on May 10, 2020, 06:33:49 AM
Which reminds me, Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony No. 2 is in E-flat minor (six flats!).

And his Chamber Symphony No. 1 ends in E major, I believe.

My ranking of the Bruckner symphonies:

#8 (superb through and through - can't point to a favorite movement)
#9 (second only because he didn't live to finish it - all signs are that the finished work would have deserved the #1 spot)
#6 (I disagree that the finale is weak... and the slow movement is one of his best IMO)
#7 (and the Adagio is my favorite movement... but I agree that the last two movements are too short)
#3 (contains IMO his first great slow movement)
#5 (I love the Adagio but have some reservations about the Finale's length)
#1 (agree that it's full of energy and life... but it is relatively early and IMO not quite mature)
#4 (I like the Finale best of all the movements)
#2 (this one has always struck me as rambling and weak... but it could just be me)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 10, 2021, 06:10:46 AM
Love your list ! The only change I'd make is to elevate #5 to the third rank. I especially like that lengthy finale  :P
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 10, 2021, 06:36:26 AM
Quote from: André on January 09, 2021, 09:11:08 AM

# 1 is a cracking work, bursting with energy. My first version and, TBH still my favourite, is Haitink's RCOA.



Amen, Andre' !




Quote from: Cato on January 09, 2021, 08:03:39 AM

Anyway, this CD came out about a year ago.


(https://www.abruckner.com/getimage.asp?id=/store/abrucknercomexclus/exclusiveandhardto/symphony-no-1-vienna-version-of-1891-gerd-schaller/&filename=Cover_Profil-190847.jpg&mode=10)

I am not sure whether it is a newer performance, or a re-issue from 2012, which also offered the Symphonies II and III.





See also:

https://www.abruckner.com/store/abrucknercomexclus/exclusiveandhardto/symphony-no-1-vienna-version-of-1891-gerd-schaller/ (https://www.abruckner.com/store/abrucknercomexclus/exclusiveandhardto/symphony-no-1-vienna-version-of-1891-gerd-schaller/)







Quote from: OrchestralNut on January 10, 2021, 04:16:44 AM

Leo, it is a newer recording, I believe. The one from 2012 is the early Linz version of 1866.  That's the one that is included in the Schaller box set.



Many thanks for the information!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 13, 2021, 02:23:58 PM
Here is an interesting mix:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71rVS2%2BCu9L._SL600_.jpg)


Quote

We announce the upcoming release of Andris Nelsons and the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig's performance of Bruckner's Symphonies Nos. 2 & 8, coupled with Wagner's Meistersinger Prelude. The Orchestra and the Latvian Maestro recently announced the extension of their acclaimed partnership until 2027.
"In this symphony, Bruckner has formulated everything very clearly: the wonderful themes are clearly separated from each other by general pauses, and yet the result is a great whole. It is astonishing that this work is so rarely performed – in fact it is an ideal introduction to the cosmos of Bruckner's Symphony", says Gewandhaus Kapellmeister Andris Nelsons about the second symphony. Bruckner himself called his Eighth a "mystery". Andris Nelsons has much to gain from this: "Bruckner penetrated here, especially in the slow movement, into regions that were beyond the reach of other composers. The unity of the enormous work is also a miracle. The magnificent final set – the last that Bruckner was able to complete – contributes to this".

The album is set to be released 5 February 2021 and is available for pre-order now. Listen to the first pre-release track Bruckner: Symphony No. 2: 3. Scherzo. Mäßig schnell – Trio. Gleiches Tempo now!



For that taste of the performance....


See:

https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/catalogue/products/bruckner-symphonies-nos-2-8-nelsons-12212?utm_source=andere&utm_medium=organischer-post&utm_content=Nelsons+Bruckner+Symphonies+2+8&utm_campaign=Nelsons+Bruckner+Symphonies+2+8 (https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/catalogue/products/bruckner-symphonies-nos-2-8-nelsons-12212?utm_source=andere&utm_medium=organischer-post&utm_content=Nelsons+Bruckner+Symphonies+2+8&utm_campaign=Nelsons+Bruckner+Symphonies+2+8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on January 14, 2021, 05:32:38 AM
Quote from: krummholz on January 10, 2021, 06:06:47 AM

My ranking of the Bruckner symphonies:

#8 (superb through and through - can't point to a favorite movement)
#9 (second only because he didn't live to finish it - all signs are that the finished work would have deserved the #1 spot)
#6 (I disagree that the finale is weak... and the slow movement is one of his best IMO)
#7 (and the Adagio is my favorite movement... but I agree that the last two movements are too short)
#3 (contains IMO his first great slow movement)
#5 (I love the Adagio but have some reservations about the Finale's length)
#1 (agree that it's full of energy and life... but it is relatively early and IMO not quite mature)
#4 (I like the Finale best of all the movements)
#2 (this one has always struck me as rambling and weak... but it could just be me)

Well, I really do listen to 3-9 on a frequent basis, and lately it is 4 and 8 on a very frequent basis.

I listen much less frequently to 1 and 2, but particularly less to number 2.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on January 14, 2021, 08:04:18 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51SFCnPfygL._SY300_SX300_QL70_ML2_.jpg)

Well, speaking of the 2nd symphony......WOW!  This made a tremendously positive impression on me.  I had never heard the (much longer) 1872 First version, here edited by William Carragan.  I had only ever heard the revised (much shorter) 1877 version. 

For me, 100% prefer the 1872 version, which is longer, but also has the Scherzo as the second movement.  It seemed more cohesive than the highly revised and cut 1877 version.

Has anyone else heard the 1872 version?  Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 14, 2021, 11:39:14 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on January 14, 2021, 08:04:18 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51SFCnPfygL._SY300_SX300_QL70_ML2_.jpg)

Well, speaking of the 2nd symphony......WOW!  This made a tremendously positive impression on me.  I had never heard the (much longer) 1872 First version, here edited by William Carragan.  I had only ever heard the revised (much shorter) 1877 version. 

For me, 100% prefer the 1872 version, which is longer, but also has the Scherzo as the second movement.  It seemed more cohesive than the highly revised and cut 1877 version.

Has anyone else heard the 1872 version?  Any thoughts?

+ 1 for me, the Tinter recording of #2 is almost the only one I listen to. Recently I listened to recording of the 1877 version and was genuinely shocked by the ineptness of the cut in the finale.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 16, 2021, 06:10:16 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 14, 2021, 11:39:14 AM
+ 1 for me, the Tinter recording of #2 is almost the only one I listen to. Recently I listened to recording of the 1877 version and was genuinely shocked by the ineptness of the cut in the finale.

In general, "cutting" a Bruckner symphony is a bad idea, but from what I recall from biographical stories, almost every conductor back then told Bruckner that yes, he liked Symphony # X very much, "but, of course, there would have to be cuts."
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on January 16, 2021, 08:00:57 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 16, 2021, 06:10:16 PM
In general, "cutting" a Bruckner symphony is a bad idea, but from what I recall from biographical stories, almost every conductor back then told Bruckner that yes, he liked Symphony # X very much, "but, of course, there would have to be cuts."

Argh!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on January 17, 2021, 04:56:39 AM
Well I bought Tintner's recording of the 2nd on the praise of some here, but unfortunately the disc does not play for some unknown reason. A shame. In any case, I will soon be revisiting the one recording of the symphony that I have: Barenboim with the Berlin Philharmonic. It's probably the Bruckner symphony I'm least familiar with, excepting the "disowned" symphonies, which I have only recently begun spending time with.

I'm listening now to the Marriner/Stuttgart recording of "Die Nullte". So far, I like it. I guess I must be really in a Bruckner mood lately because everything is clicking with me, even these supposedly minor early works.

Any general thoughts here on No.0 and No.00? Do you like them as much as the others, or was Bruckner right to have disowned them?

On an unrelated note, I saw this at the record store yesterday...:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31CXn-gP-dL.jpg)

Thoughts on this recording? I wasn't aware that Kubelik had recorded any Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on January 17, 2021, 05:06:18 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 17, 2021, 04:56:39 AM

Any general thoughts here on No.0 and No.00? Do you like them as much as the others, or was Bruckner right to have disowned them?


I myself have only recently started to get familiarized with the two zero numbered symphonies.

I find the early study symphony in F minor to be charming. It was Bruckner's first attempt at writing a symphony. It lacks some Brucknerian characteristics, but at the same time shows a lot of promise. I particularly love the scherzo.

For the other symphony, in D minor, this is a full blown mature work, in fact, written after Symphony number one. I think it is of a high quality, equal to Symphony number one and two!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 17, 2021, 05:22:08 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 17, 2021, 04:56:39 AM
Well I bought Tintner's recording of the 2nd on the praise of some here, but unfortunately the disc does not play for some unknown reason. A shame. In any case, I will soon be revisiting the one recording of the symphony that I have: Barenboim with the Berlin Philharmonic. It's probably the Bruckner symphony I'm least familiar with, excepting the "disowned" symphonies, which I have only recently begun spending time with.

I'm listening now to the Marriner/Stuttgart recording of "Die Nullte". So far, I like it. I guess I must be really in a Bruckner mood lately because everything is clicking with me, even these supposedly minor early works.

Any general thoughts here on No.0 and No.00? Do you like them as much as the others, or was Bruckner right to have disowned them?

On an unrelated note, I saw this at the record store yesterday...:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31CXn-gP-dL.jpg)

Thoughts on this recording? I wasn't aware that Kubelik had recorded any Bruckner.

It's my favourite performance of my preferrered version (1877). Also available in this fine, inexpensive box:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81G-0THi%2BRL._SL500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Que on January 17, 2021, 06:00:22 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 17, 2021, 04:56:39 AM
On an unrelated note, I saw this at the record store yesterday...:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31CXn-gP-dL.jpg)

Thoughts on this recording? I wasn't aware that Kubelik had recorded any Bruckner.

I wouldn't call myself a true Brucknerian, but just want to echo André's response: amazing recording - get it!  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 17, 2021, 02:04:52 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on January 17, 2021, 05:06:18 AM
I myself have only recently started to get familiarized with the two zero numbered symphonies.

I find the early study symphony in F minor to be charming. It was Bruckner's first attempt at writing a symphony. It lacks some Brucknerian characteristics, but at the same time shows a lot of promise. I particularly love the scherzo.


For the other symphony, in D minor, this is a full blown mature work, in fact, written after Symphony number one. I think it is of a high quality, equal to Symphony number one and two!



I wish it had been recorded:

A few years ago I heard The Toledo Symphony under Stefan Sanderling  perform Die Nullte in the Catholic cathedral there!  Sanderling and the orchestra proved that this was no beginner's work!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 02, 2021, 01:36:13 PM
From the Anton Bruckner website:

Quote

One of the first things you learn in Psychology "101" is the concept of "Intermittent reinforcement." An occasional reward can keep someone coming back for more and more. The perfect real-world example of this concept is gambling. But this works with collecting as well. This month's download is a perfect example. I keep searching and searching for out-of-the-way Bruckner recordings and here is this one. It is a CD released in 2010 of a performance of the Youth Orchestra of Bremen. The orchestra is still in existence and the conductor, Stefan Geiger is active in Germany and he is still leading these talented young musicians. Here is a chance for all of us to hear their good work from over a decade ago. And I'll keep searching...


The download has 4 FLAC tracks.


https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/february21/ (https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/february21/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on February 02, 2021, 01:47:45 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 02, 2021, 01:36:13 PM
From the Anton Bruckner website:

The download has 4 FLAC tracks.


https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/february21/ (https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/february21/)


Cool!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 05, 2021, 03:41:26 AM
A television performance from Spain of the Psalm 150 was sent to me recently by an Internet acquaintance:

https://www.youtube.com/v/nmx0yRQhe78&list=RDnmx0yRQhe78&start_radio=1&t=170
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on February 24, 2021, 03:04:27 PM
Really admiring Georg Tintner's work in Bruckner these days. Generally speaking, Bruckner's music seems to make more sense to me with each successive listen to any of his symphonies. I feel like this is music that takes some time to reveal itself to the listener, but it's interesting what a cumulative effect this seems to be, my appreciation of his art. I think I'm enjoying Bruckner more than ever. I might go as far as calling him a top 10 composer. Though I must confess there are times when I try and listen to a symphony of his and it just doesn't hit me the way it's supposed to. I still find Bruckner to be somewhat of an enigma.

What are the thoughts on Tintner, here? What are some favorite recordings of his? I think his 9th is extremely successful. I'm listening to the 4th now and enjoying it greatly. I know he's notable for tending to always prefer the earliest available versions of symphonies, but I'm not yet familiar enough with Bruckner to be able to really hear the distinctions between versions.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on February 24, 2021, 03:17:20 PM
I can only say that I've always been underwhelmed by Tintner's traversal of Bruckner. I don't really to find him to be a conductor of note. Plus, why would I listen to his Bruckner when there's Jochum, Wand, Giulini, Haitink, etc.? So many better options available, IMHO.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Symphonic Addict on February 24, 2021, 03:23:44 PM
The 6th Symphony on that box set is the most satisfying performance of that piece IMO (even before Hurwitz claimed the same).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on February 24, 2021, 03:37:01 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on February 24, 2021, 03:23:44 PM
The 6th Symphony on that box set is the most satisfying performance of that piece IMO (even before Hurwitz claimed the same).

Do you mean the Tintner? I don't have the box set, but I did just bid on a copy of that disc as well as Tintner's 7th. (I don't follow Hurwitz.) My personal favorite Bruckner 6th is Bongartz/Leipzig, but I confess I've not heard many. I'd like to hear more. It's a great symphony.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 24, 2021, 03:45:13 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 24, 2021, 03:04:27 PM
Really admiring Georg Tintner's work in Bruckner these days. Generally speaking, Bruckner's music seems to make more sense to me with each successive listen to any of his symphonies. I feel like this is music that takes some time to reveal itself to the listener, but it's interesting what a cumulative effect this seems to be, my appreciation of his art. I think I'm enjoying Bruckner more than ever. I might go as far as calling him a top 10 composer. Though I must confess there are times when I try and listen to a symphony of his and it just doesn't hit me the way it's supposed to. I still find Bruckner to be somewhat of an enigma.

What are the thoughts on Tintner, here? What are some favorite recordings of his? I think his 9th is extremely successful. I'm listening to the 4th now and enjoying it greatly. I know he's notable for tending to always prefer the earliest available versions of symphonies, but I'm not yet familiar enough with Bruckner to be able to really hear the distinctions between versions.


Welcome to Bruckner!   Your comment about familiarity bringing more understanding and enjoyment is precisely the approach I took toward Schoenberg many decades ago.  The effort was worth it!  My mentor Alexander Tcherepnin often advised "keep listening," or to expand to something else unfamiliar, and then go back to the "incomprehensible" work and see if anything in one's comprehension had changed.



Tintner's NAXOS CD with the 1872 version is not to be missed.



A performance of the Originalfassung with Simone Young and the Hamburg Philharmonic on OEHMS Classics was given some top reviews.



Quote from: vers la flamme on February 24, 2021, 03:37:01 PM
Do you mean the Tintner? I don't have the box set, but I did just bid on a copy of that disc as well as Tintner's 7th. (I don't follow Hurwitz.) My personal favorite Bruckner 6th is Bongartz/Leipzig, but I confess I've not heard many. I'd like to hear more. It's a great symphony.


Then you must hear (Saint)  0:)  Eugen Jochum's version of the Symphony #6: the slow movement is transcendent!

https://www.youtube.com/v/iGSovJ6OzLw

Of course, there is the famous Symphony #5 performance with Eugen Jochum and the Concertgebouw Orchestra from the 1980's, also not to be missed!

The !960's DGG Jochum set of all 9 symphonies is essential...for me at least!   ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on February 24, 2021, 04:15:44 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 24, 2021, 03:37:01 PM
Do you mean the Tintner? I don't have the box set, but I did just bid on a copy of that disc as well as Tintner's 7th. (I don't follow Hurwitz.) My personal favorite Bruckner 6th is Bongartz/Leipzig, but I confess I've not heard many. I'd like to hear more. It's a great symphony.

The 6th, next to the 8th and 9th, is my favorite Bruckner symphony. The performance that really turned me around was Haitink's live Dresden account on Profil. Do check it out!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 24, 2021, 04:23:21 PM
I like Tinter in the early symphonies (0-3), particularly his choice of version. I find other conductors better in the later symphonies.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on February 24, 2021, 04:33:48 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 24, 2021, 03:04:27 PM
What are the thoughts on Tintner, here? What are some favorite recordings of his? I think his 9th is extremely successful. I'm listening to the 4th now and enjoying it greatly. I know he's notable for tending to always prefer the earliest available versions of symphonies, but I'm not yet familiar enough with Bruckner to be able to really hear the distinctions between versions.

I think this recording of the third symphony is exceptional.  I prefer Jochum, Karajan, Skrowaczewski, and some others in 4-9.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on February 24, 2021, 04:37:00 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 24, 2021, 04:33:48 PM
I think this recording of the third symphony is exceptional.  I prefer Jochum, Karajan, Skrowaczewski, and some others in 4-9.

The best 3rd I've ever heard came from Kubelik on Audite:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91gVLH3QncL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on February 24, 2021, 06:58:42 PM
Okay I've added that recording to my list to listen!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on February 24, 2021, 07:22:05 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 24, 2021, 06:58:42 PM
Okay I've added that recording to my list to listen!

8) Hope you enjoy it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on February 25, 2021, 03:13:51 AM
Tintner - I'm fond of the 2nd - this recording really opened my ears.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81yC0vrFtpL._AC_SL1200_.jpg)

However I have subsequently replaced him with Gergiev who I think really hits the spot in this symphony.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91F0psekKnL._AC_SL1500_.jpg)

Though - as in the WAYL2N thread - I'm generally a Venzago man, on the rare occasions I listen to Bruckner - which probably disqualifies me from this thread  :laugh:
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 25, 2021, 04:04:35 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 24, 2021, 04:37:00 PM
The best 3rd I've ever heard came from Kubelik on Audite:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91gVLH3QncL._SS500_.jpg)



Rafael Kubelik is never to be excluded!


Here is a late 1970's recording of the Sixth Symphony: somebody offered it on YouTube back in October!


https://www.youtube.com/v/uoJfmsBsCuw


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on February 25, 2021, 06:17:17 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 25, 2021, 04:04:35 AM

Rafael Kubelik is never to be excluded!


Here is a late 1970's recording of the Sixth Symphony: somebody offered it on YouTube back in October!


https://www.youtube.com/v/uoJfmsBsCuw

Indeed! I also like this recording with Kubelik:

(https://albumart.primephonic.com/s900/4011790550114.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Herman on February 25, 2021, 10:02:04 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 24, 2021, 03:37:01 PM
Do you mean the Tintner? I don't have the box set, but I did just bid on a copy of that disc as well as Tintner's 7th. (I don't follow Hurwitz.) My personal favorite Bruckner 6th is Bongartz/Leipzig, but I confess I've not heard many. I'd like to hear more. It's a great symphony.

In 6, I really like the live Haitink with the Dresden Phil on Profil.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on February 26, 2021, 10:23:49 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 24, 2021, 04:15:44 PM
The 6th, next to the 8th and 9th, is my favorite Bruckner symphony. The performance that really turned me around was Haitink's live Dresden account on Profil. Do check it out!

Me too by a long country mile. It is so amazing and so Haitink's live Dresden account.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2021, 07:25:02 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 26, 2021, 10:23:49 AM
Me too by a long country mile. It is so amazing and so Haitink's live Dresden account.

Great minds think alike. ;) 8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on February 28, 2021, 01:34:49 PM
From ABruckner.com comes this transcript of a 1941 performance of the mighty 5th by the great Paul van Kempen conducting the Amsterdam Concertgebouw orchestra. The sound is ancient, but not quite prehistoric. Lots of surface noise, but a clear ambience.


https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/march21/ (https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/march21/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on March 02, 2021, 03:56:34 PM
Thoughts on the Klaus Tennstedt/LPO live Bruckner 7th?

(http://image.kyobobook.co.kr/newimages/music/large/8553/2355852.jpg)

I'd be curious to hear it. 

The more I listen, the more I remain unconvinced by Karajan's Bruckner. I have the two late VPO recordings of the 7th and 8th, the latter of which I listened to this morning. I also have the EMI Berlin 4th, which sounds pretty good, but I can't say it's my favorite. I'm not sure what gives? It's clearly solid stuff, good conducting, good playing, but it doesn't seem to have the same kind of excitement that Karajan brings to the likes of Beethoven.

An unrelated thought, but I still don't seem to have much love for the 8th symphony. I wonder whether I'm alone in this.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 02, 2021, 05:15:50 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 02, 2021, 03:56:34 PM
Thoughts on the Klaus Tennstedt/LPO live Bruckner 7th?

(http://image.kyobobook.co.kr/newimages/music/large/8553/2355852.jpg)

I'd be curious to hear it. 

The more I listen, the more I remain unconvinced by Karajan's Bruckner. I have the two late VPO recordings of the 7th and 8th, the latter of which I listened to this morning. I also have the EMI Berlin 4th, which sounds pretty good, but I can't say it's my favorite. I'm not sure what gives? It's clearly solid stuff, good conducting, good playing, but it doesn't seem to have the same kind of excitement that Karajan brings to the likes of Beethoven.


An unrelated thought, but I still don't seem to have much love for the 8th symphony. I wonder whether I'm alone in this
.


The 8th Symphony is, perhaps, just as experimental as the Ninth.  The Scherzo is especially idiosyncratic, but in the right hands, the entire symphony can be shown to be a journey toward the last two triumphant pages of the score!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on March 02, 2021, 05:51:06 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 02, 2021, 03:56:34 PM
Thoughts on the Klaus Tennstedt/LPO live Bruckner 7th?

(http://image.kyobobook.co.kr/newimages/music/large/8553/2355852.jpg)

I'd be curious to hear it. 

The more I listen, the more I remain unconvinced by Karajan's Bruckner. I have the two late VPO recordings of the 7th and 8th, the latter of which I listened to this morning. I also have the EMI Berlin 4th, which sounds pretty good, but I can't say it's my favorite. I'm not sure what gives? It's clearly solid stuff, good conducting, good playing, but it doesn't seem to have the same kind of excitement that Karajan brings to the likes of Beethoven.

An unrelated thought, but I still don't seem to have much love for the 8th symphony. I wonder whether I'm alone in this.

We're in disagreement about HvK's Bruckner. His Bruckner is absolute tops for me and I'm talking about his Berliner performances on Deutsche Grammophon. These performances are where its at for me. You can keep his EMI and those later DG recordings. He could never top this Berliner DG cycle. Bruckner's 8th is a monumental piece and it gets much, much love from Brucknerians, so, while you're probably not alone, you're definitely in the minority. The 7th is actually one of my least favorite Bruckner symphonies along with the earlier ones like the 00, 0, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, but I do like the 4th a lot. The 5th is another one that I've come to really enjoy over the years.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on March 03, 2021, 01:33:21 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 02, 2021, 05:51:06 PM
We're in disagreement about HvK's Bruckner. His Bruckner is absolute tops for me and I'm talking about his Berliner performances on Deutsche Grammophon. These performances are where its at for me. You can keep his EMI and those later DG recordings. He could never top this Berliner DG cycle. Bruckner's 8th is a monumental piece and it gets much, much love from Brucknerians, so, while you're probably not alone, you're definitely in the minority. The 7th is actually one of my least favorite Bruckner symphonies along with the earlier ones like the 00, 0, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, but I do like the 4th a lot. The 5th is another one that I've come to really enjoy over the years.

I guess I'll have to check out the DG cycle before writing off Karajan the Brucknerian. I absolutely love the 7th. It might just be my favorite of them all. The 5th is also great.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on March 03, 2021, 07:47:02 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 03, 2021, 01:33:21 AM
I guess I'll have to check out the DG cycle before writing off Karajan the Brucknerian. I absolutely love the 7th. It might just be my favorite of them all. The 5th is also great.

It is one of my favorite cycles.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on March 03, 2021, 08:28:48 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 03, 2021, 01:33:21 AM
I guess I'll have to check out the DG cycle before writing off Karajan the Brucknerian. I absolutely love the 7th. It might just be my favorite of them all. The 5th is also great.

And give the 8th more time to grow on you. Karajan's account of it with the Berliners is exquisite.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on March 03, 2021, 08:59:01 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 03, 2021, 08:28:48 AM
And give the 8th more time to grow on you. Karajan's account of it with the Berliners is exquisite.

I didn't like the 8th until I heard that recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on March 03, 2021, 09:33:12 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 03, 2021, 08:59:01 AM
I didn't like the 8th until I heard that recording.

Yeah, it's quite something. I liked Boulez's recording of it as well, but there are many fine accounts of this symphony.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 03, 2021, 10:29:09 AM
I think one thing that needs saying re the Bruckner symphonies is that for all the critics' talk about Bruckner writing the same symphony nine times in fact each symphony is completely different from every other. No one could possibly predict what the third symphony would sound like if Bruckner had died after completing the second. Similarly no one could predict what the eighth would sound like if Bruckner had died died after completing the seventh. In don't have a favourite Bruckner symphony because each time I listen to any particular symphony it becomes my favourite.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on March 03, 2021, 12:33:25 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 03, 2021, 10:29:09 AM
I think one thing that needs saying re the Bruckner symphonies is that for all the critics' talk about Bruckner writing the same symphony nine times in fact each symphony is completely different from every other. No one could possibly predict what the third symphony would sound like if Bruckner had died after completing the second. Similarly no one could predict what the eighth would sound like if Bruckner had died died after completing the seventh. In don't have a favourite Bruckner symphony because each time I listen to any particular symphony it becomes my favourite.

Well, I think it's true that he didn't write the same symphony over and over, but there is some truth that his musical vernacular didn't change that much over his career. What did change was his handling of the musical material --- the way he continued to stretch time and so forth. His structuring of the symphonies also became more complicated as he went along. One thing that is admirable about his development as a composer is how he never compromised this musical language. He may have cut some measures here or there at the urging of other conductors or well-meaning friends, but remained true to his own vision. There's one thing for certain: no one sounded like him.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on March 03, 2021, 11:42:25 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 03, 2021, 10:29:09 AM
I think one thing that needs saying re the Bruckner symphonies is that for all the critics' talk about Bruckner writing the same symphony nine times in fact each symphony is completely different from every other. No one could possibly predict what the third symphony would sound like if Bruckner had died after completing the second. Similarly no one could predict what the eighth would sound like if Bruckner had died died after completing the seventh. In don't have a favourite Bruckner symphony because each time I listen to any particular symphony it becomes my favourite.

That's only like saying that chicken vindaloo tastes different to chicken madras.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 04, 2021, 12:06:54 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 03, 2021, 11:42:25 PM
That's only like saying that chicken vindaloo tastes different to chicken madras.
Not sure what the point of the comment is.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on March 05, 2021, 12:41:40 AM
I'm disagreeing with you. To most people, all Bruckner does sound the same.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on March 05, 2021, 01:02:36 AM
They are structurally and in many other ways, e.g. shapes of themes, types of movements, time signatures etc. within a rather narrow compass, compared to e.g. Beethoven, Brahms or Dvorak. There is some variety, but it is rather "controlled", despite a few things that stick out, such as the 5th being the only symphony with a clearly separate slow introductin.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MusicTurner on March 05, 2021, 05:43:59 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 05, 2021, 12:41:40 AM
I'm disagreeing with you. To most people, all Bruckner does sound the same.

Most people haven't heard any Bruckner. A few have heard some, and even fewer have heard a lot/~all. If psychologically more inclined to like him and explore the oeuvre, one will also find more differences in his music and its many details.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 08, 2021, 10:31:09 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on March 05, 2021, 05:43:59 AM


Most people haven't heard any Bruckner. A few have heard some, and even fewer have heard a lot/~all. If psychologically more inclined to like him and explore the oeuvre, one will also find more differences in his music and its many details.





Hearing a constant development in Bruckner's skills is what I have enjoyed, from the earliest symphonies to the Finale, such as it is, of the Ninth Symphony.


I am reminded of one of my German students from long ago, who reacted negatively when I mentioned that some excerpts of German operas would be part of the curriculum.

"I hate operas!"

"Oh: how many have you heard?"   0:)


And of course he had never heard an opera!   8)


Might we still - in some sense - be fighting the influence of Hanslick and the negative cliches from the 1800's about Bruckner's works?  I would think not: more performances and recordings seem to be happening.  One example: about a decade ago The Toledo Symphony performed a Bruckner symphony every year in the Roman Catholic cathedral.  The concerts were well attended and the orchestra handled the symphonies quite well.  They did not quite make it through the entire cycle. Stefan Sanderling left, and a new bishop came in, etc. and so things did not work out any more.

Still, the cathedral was much fuller than it was for the Masses!   0:)





Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 08, 2021, 03:18:38 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 08, 2021, 10:31:09 AM


Hearing a constant development in Bruckner's skills is what I have enjoyed, from the earliest symphonies to the Finale, such as it is, of the Ninth Symphony.


I am reminded of one of my German students from long ago, who reacted negatively when I mentioned that some excerpts of German operas would be part of the curriculum.

"I hate operas!"

"Oh: how many have you heard?"   0:)


And of course he had never heard an opera!   8)


Might we still - in some sense - be fighting the influence of Hanslick and the negative cliches from the 1800's about Bruckner's works?  I would think not: more performances and recordings seem to be happening.  One example: about a decade ago The Toledo Symphony performed a Bruckner symphony every year in the Roman Catholic cathedral.  The concerts were well attended and the orchestra handled the symphonies quite well.  They did not quite make it through the entire cycle. Stefan Sanderling left, and a new bishop came in, etc. and so things did not work out any more.

Still, the cathedral was much fuller than it was for the Masses!   0:)

I stand corrected!  The Toledo Symphony did indeed play ALL the Bruckner symphonies: not all of them were played, however, in the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Rosary.

Quote



Born in East Berlin in 1964, the son of the late legendary conductor Kurt Sanderling, Stefan Sanderling studied musicology at the University of Halle and conducting at the conservatory in Leipzig before leaving East Germany to continue his studies in Los Angeles at the University of Southern California.


From 1990 to 1995, Sanderling became one of Germany's youngest conductors to take the position of General Music Director at the Brandenburgische Philharmonie and the Potsdam Opera. He was Music Director of the Philharmonic Orchestra and Staatstheater in Mainz 1995-2001 and served as Music Director of the Orchestre de Bretagne in France (1996-2004), before taking up his post as Music Director of The Florida Orchestra (2002-2012). He was Music Director of the Chautauqua Symphony orchestra 2007-2011 and he has been Principal Conductor and Music Advisor of the Toledo Symphony since 2002.


Sanderling was Awarded the Kilenyi Medal of Honor (Bruckner Medal) by the Board of Directors of the Bruckner Society of America for his contribution to the works of Anton Bruckner in April 2012, which included the performance of all of Bruckner's symphonies with the Toledo Symphony over an 11 year period.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on March 08, 2021, 03:41:21 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 08, 2021, 03:18:38 PM
I stand corrected!  The Toledo Symphony did indeed play ALL the Bruckner symphonies: not all of them were played, however, in the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Rosary.

That is badass. My whole family hails from Toledo. If I'm not mistaken I think I was baptized in that very cathedral. I need to catch a Toledo Symphony concert the next time I'm up there seeing family.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 08, 2021, 04:02:13 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 08, 2021, 03:41:21 PM
That is badass. My whole family hails from Toledo. If I'm not mistaken I think I was baptized in that very cathedral. I need to catch a Toledo Symphony concert the next time I'm up there seeing family.


Yes!  The performances in recent years have been excellent!

Too bad that e.g. NAXOS did not record their performances of the Bruckner symphonies!  The local classical music station in Toledo undoubtedly has recordings of the performances.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Maestro267 on March 08, 2021, 10:18:46 PM
Quote from: MusicTurner on March 05, 2021, 05:43:59 AM
Most people haven't heard any Bruckner. A few have heard some, and even fewer have heard a lot/~all. If psychologically more inclined to like him and explore the oeuvre, one will also find more differences in his music and its many details.

So if you BELIEVE hard enough, you'll convince yourself there are differences.

No, they're all quite similar to each other. In fact, I was kind of disappointed with the hyped completion of No. 9's finale that Rattle did, trying to pull another Mahler 10. Cooke/Mahler is lightning in a bottle. I got the impression from liner notes that the finale of Bruckner 9 would have been a truly modern groundbreaking masterpiece that basically did what Schoenberg would later do. In the end, it became another Bruckner finale. He works on such a narrow compass that it becomes repetitive. Heck, he has a dilemma whenever he tries to use even the most basic extra percussion in his 7th and 8th symphonies.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MusicTurner on March 08, 2021, 11:01:24 PM
For example, I hear a moving towards a more modernist expression in the oeuvre, culminating the 9th symphony; the 7th symphony as of a much more lyrical/melodical mood, with more long-stretched lines than the others; and the 5th as a more structurally strict, 'minimalist' work, based on comparatively few building stones.

A Bruckner specialist I knew, who had most of the Anton recordings and 8000 LPs spanning the entire classical repertoire, emphasized the diversities inherent in the symphonies too. It's fairly easy to locate academic texts emphasizing various differences in Anton too.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on March 09, 2021, 01:32:18 AM
Obviously, the more detailed knowledge one has, the more one will hear/see differences.
I don't understand why using a bit of extra percussion should pose a "dilemma" (I think it is mostly superfluous but hardly disturbing/unfitting).
But the repetitiveness is a part of the style, it is mostly repetitive structures within the same piece/movement. Of course, there are also types of movements that repeat and in some parameters the settings are very similar or narrow. I have not checked everything, but I am not sure Bruckner ever wrote a 3/4 or x/8 movement not a scherzo; there is a 3/4 section e.g. in the slow movement of the Seventh but the main time signatures are always 4/4 or 2/2. Conversely, all scherzi but one (4th in 2/4 or actually 6/8) are in 3/4. And so on. Of course these are also identifiable "Brucknerian" features that make the music recognizable as Bruckner (although it becomes harder to tell which piece...)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: timwtheov on March 09, 2021, 06:29:15 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 08, 2021, 10:18:46 PM
So if you BELIEVE hard enough, you'll convince yourself there are differences.

No, they're all quite similar to each other. In fact, I was kind of disappointed with the hyped completion of No. 9's finale that Rattle did, trying to pull another Mahler 10. Cooke/Mahler is lightning in a bottle. I got the impression from liner notes that the finale of Bruckner 9 would have been a truly modern groundbreaking masterpiece that basically did what Schoenberg would later do. In the end, it became another Bruckner finale. He works on such a narrow compass that it becomes repetitive. Heck, he has a dilemma whenever he tries to use even the most basic extra percussion in his 7th and 8th symphonies.

I think both sides are right here, for though I'm speaking as a mere listener (I can't read a note), I'd agree that Bruckner's range is limited, and so there's a similarity in sound, structure, etc. in all the symphonies. On the other hand, when you get to know them well enough their distinctions emerge, e.g., the slow movements have distinct melodies, no one brass fanfare is quite the same as another, etc. And if you like or even revel in that limited range, well, Bruckner's one of the best; and if not, not.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 12, 2021, 01:46:12 PM
A true story from the bloody, mud-filled, and totally vibed trenches of American Education!


Part of my duties this year, because of the stooopid virus, is to monitor the Fifth Grade during the morning, since we have now 4 divisions of every grade this year, rather than 2 "to separate the kids and keep them safe."     ::)  ::)   ::)

(Don't get me started!).

So this morning I played the Os Iusti of Anton Bruckner for one of the quarters: when Lent started, I discovered that one of the Fifth Graders in the other quarter is quite the pianist, so I thought he and the others would be able to appreciate the work.  I gave a quick introduction to Bruckner, the 9 symphonies, and told of my personal discovery of Bruckner when I found a study score of the Seventh Symphony at the Dayton Public Library, and was astounded by it.  The stereo LP was just coming into existence in the early 1960's, and by chance a DGG record of the work had arrived in the Music Department.  Our stereo was not the best, but I was hexed, charmed, enchanted, and thrilled by Bruckner's work.  I was probably the youngest person on the planet to own the complete 9 symphonies on DGG conducted by (Saint) Eugen Jochum!  😇


Anyway, I played the Os Iusti:



https://www.youtube.com/v/AXv-QUU2mgk



The Fifth Graders were listening quite nicely and then at bar 11 ff. (q.v. et q.a.) I hear a loudly whispered "Wow!" from one of the Fifth Grade boys!  8)   0:)


That made my day!  The boy is the son of a former student from my days in the Catholic all-boy high school
in Toledo.


Yes, there is hope for the future!   :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 17, 2021, 04:19:43 AM
I came across this essay recently on Wilhelm Furtwängler and the Fourth Symphony.

An excerpt:


Quote

"...Although after  1938,  he used for  symphonies V to  IX,  the newly revised Robert Haas  «Original Edition», he has not been convinced by the amendments in the IVth. Why ?

During a 1951 debate with students of the Munich National Conservatoire of Music, Furtwängler adressed this issue. It stands out that for him Bruckner was more a "mystical" composer" than an artist who searches with the highest  objectivity the  expression  of a "cosmical order"  (as,  later,Günther Wand did). The Furtwängler recordings of the Vth and above all the VIIIth symphonies testify (to) an energetic hold of the score with accelerandi and ritardandi and an emotional expressivity that goes beyond the simple rendering of the score, thereby rubbing out the "deficiencies" of the composition seen by Furtwängler.

The preserved recordings ot the VIIth and of the IXth (but also the three preserved movements of the 1943 VIth), show the same intensity of the interpretation, but they follow more closely the tempi indications of the score. In the IVth, It is already by the choice of the Edition that we notice that Furtwängler, while basing himself on the score, tries to free himself from it by creating a sound world that goes beyond and transcends the written text"...."


See:

https://www.abruckner.com/down/articles/articlesEnglish/jacquard-philippe-furtwangler-and/Furtwaengler---Bruckner-Symphonie-IV-Welche-Fassung-English.pdf (https://www.abruckner.com/down/articles/articlesEnglish/jacquard-philippe-furtwangler-and/Furtwaengler---Bruckner-Symphonie-IV-Welche-Fassung-English.pdf)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 20, 2021, 02:10:43 PM
I had an idea for a long article or a short book but unfortunately I can't read German so couldn't read the necessary primary texts... so I'm giving the idea away hoping someone can run with it.

Bruckner lovers know of Hanslick the critic who, we know, was anti-Wagner and also wrote scathingly of Bruckner. However, I think we need a more nuanced account answering questions like:

1.   What did Hanslick actually say about Bruckner?
2.   What was this in reaction to, ie tying each review to the performance that provoked it and stating what it was Hanslick heard, which version of which Symphony, who was conducting, who was playing, was it a good performance, what did other critics think?
3.   Is there any evidence that Hanslick studied Bruckner's music in MS or in published versions?
4.   Did Hanslick criticise Bruckner because he needed friends and allies of Wagner to criticise, or did he have a particular set against Bruckner?
5.   How does his Brucknerian criticism mesh with his published work on musical aesthetics, is it in line with it, or does he bend his own rules to bash Bruckner?
6.   Did other critics of the time react to Hanslick's criticism of Bruckner, or was the critical consensus largely against Bruckner anyway during his lifetime?

I think such an article/book would be quite an interesting read.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on March 21, 2021, 12:51:16 AM
At least some of this has probably been covered by Bruckner scholars although maybe not in a monograph or article but rather some chapters or subsection (and probably in German). I have not read anything specific (or I don't remember but I have not read much about Bruckner in particular although a bit in general about the epoch and the tensions between the Wagnerians and the rest.)
I do think that many musicians and critics were honestly puzzled by Bruckner's music. Brahms respected Wagner's music but his remarks wrt Bruckner are even more scathing than Hanslick's and somewhat personally demeaning (sth. like "a poor confused soul ruined by the popish priests of St. Florian). As Brahms was far more successful in their lifetimes he certainly gained little from such behavior. But Brahms was known to be very generous towards people/music he liked (e.g. Dvorak) but brutally scathing to anything that didn't meet his exacting standards.

But there was no consensus. Wagnerians like Hugo Wolf wrote in support of Bruckner although sometimes this also sounds as if it seemsed more important to them o support a symphonist of the "Wagnerian school" contra Brahms than to genuinely help Bruckner.

I will look up one or two of my books and add a bit later if I find more specific information regarding your questions.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on March 22, 2021, 02:21:26 AM
I'm really falling for the 1st symphony lately. I only have one recording of it, which I very much like: Daniel Barenboim and the Berlin Philharmonic on Warner/Teldec. What are some other great recordings of the work?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on March 22, 2021, 03:53:15 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 22, 2021, 02:21:26 AM
I'm really falling for the 1st symphony lately. I only have one recording of it, which I very much like: Daniel Barenboim and the Berlin Philharmonic on Warner/Teldec. What are some other great recordings of the work?

Hmmm, I'm not sure what is considered a great 1st symphony recording? I admittedly don't listen to the 1st very often these days.

I have Jochum Dresden and also Berlin that I enjoy.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 22, 2021, 05:20:32 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 22, 2021, 02:21:26 AM
I'm really falling for the 1st symphony lately. I only have one recording of it, which I very much like: Daniel Barenboim and the Berlin Philharmonic on Warner/Teldec. What are some other great recordings of the work?

Definitely Haitink and the Concertgebouw. Fresh, direct and dynamic reading and the orchestra is on fire. Succulent winds, pliant strings and what a horn section !
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 22, 2021, 03:46:59 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 20, 2021, 02:10:43 PM
I had an idea for a long article or a short book but unfortunately I can't read German so couldn't read the necessary primary texts... so I'm giving the idea away hoping someone can run with it.

Bruckner lovers know of Hanslick the critic who, we know, was anti-Wagner and also wrote scathingly of Bruckner. However, I think we need a more nuanced account answering questions like:

1.   What did Hanslick actually say about Bruckner?
2.   What was this in reaction to, ie tying each review to the performance that provoked it and stating what it was Hanslick heard, which version of which Symphony, who was conducting, who was playing, was it a good performance, what did other critics think?
3.   Is there any evidence that Hanslick studied Bruckner's music in MS or in published versions?
4.   Did Hanslick criticise Bruckner because he needed friends and allies of Wagner to criticise, or did he have a particular set against Bruckner?
5.   How does his Brucknerian criticism mesh with his published work on musical aesthetics, is it in line with it, or does he bend his own rules to bash Bruckner?
6.   Did other critics of the time react to Hanslick's criticism of Bruckner, or was the critical consensus largely against Bruckner anyway during his lifetime?

I think such an article/book would be quite an interesting read.


Thank you for the interesting comments!

Penguin Publishing, under the Peregrine Books imprint, in the early 1960's offered a translation of some reviews by Hanslick from the last half of the 1800's.

https://www.amazon.com/Music-Criticisms-1846-99-Hanslick/dp/B00ADJMGEQ/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=Eduard+Hanslick&qid=1616453960&s=books&sr=1-3 (https://www.amazon.com/Music-Criticisms-1846-99-Hanslick/dp/B00ADJMGEQ/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=Eduard+Hanslick&qid=1616453960&s=books&sr=1-3)


It is still available: one of the chapters is Hanslick's review of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony, wherein Hanslick mentions studying the score and "preparing" for the premiere of the work in Vienna (Hans Richter conducting the Vienna Philharmonic).  Hanslick was quite thorough and fair in that regard.

To be sure, there is nothing nuanced about his review: it is quite hostile! 

e.g. "...tossed about between intoxication and desolation, we arrive at no definite impression and enjoy no artistic pleasure."  The review argues quite a bit with the "program" written by Josef Schalk, which admittedly is unnecessary, but shows why Hanslick was quite hostile to this symphony at least, for his aesthetic ideas repudiated "program music."


In fact, any "Wagnerite" e.g. Richard Strauss (a composer "lacking in musical ideas" in Tod und Verklaerung), violated Hanslick's musical aesthetics, which disallowed extra-musical considerations in a musical work.  An opera libretto such as Lohengrin's, which Wagner said could be performed on its own as a regular drama, Hanslick found repugnant.  Wagner's early operas, more traditional in form, enthused him, but he broke with Wagner with the appearance of Lohengrin.

For Hanslick, Zukunftsmusik  or Gesamtkunstwerke were by definition paths to artistic artificiality and the degradation of Music as Music!

I do wonder what he would have thought of Bruckner's music, if the composer had not been connected to Wagner and if the Schalks and others had kept their programs to themselves!
 

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 22, 2021, 03:54:35 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 22, 2021, 02:21:26 AM
I'm really falling for the 1st symphony lately. I only have one recording of it, which I very much like: Daniel Barenboim and the Berlin Philharmonic on Warner/Teldec. What are some other great recordings of the work?

The Jochum/DGG is also a great recording!

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ECpqe323L._SX425_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 23, 2021, 06:21:03 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 20, 2021, 02:10:43 PM
I had an idea for a long article or a short book but unfortunately I can't read German so couldn't read the necessary primary texts... so I'm giving the idea away hoping someone can run with it.

Bruckner lovers know of Hanslick the critic who, we know, was anti-Wagner and also wrote scathingly of Bruckner. However, I think we need a more nuanced account answering questions like:

1.   What did Hanslick actually say about Bruckner?
2.   What was this in reaction to, ie tying each review to the performance that provoked it and stating what it was Hanslick heard, which version of which Symphony, who was conducting, who was playing, was it a good performance, what did other critics think?
3.   Is there any evidence that Hanslick studied Bruckner's music in MS or in published versions?
4.   Did Hanslick criticise Bruckner because he needed friends and allies of Wagner to criticise, or did he have a particular set against Bruckner?
5.   How does his Brucknerian criticism mesh with his published work on musical aesthetics, is it in line with it, or does he bend his own rules to bash Bruckner?
6.   Did other critics of the time react to Hanslick's criticism of Bruckner, or was the critical consensus largely against Bruckner anyway during his lifetime?

I think such an article/book would be quite an interesting read.

Digging around, I found this excerpt from an Eduard Hanslick review of the Sixth Symphony:

Quote

.his artistic intentions are honest, however oddly he employs them. Instead of a critique, therefore, we would rather simply confess that we have not understood his gigantic symphony. Neither were his poetic intentions clear to us...nor could we grasp the purely musical coherence. The composer...was greeted with cheering and was consoled with lively applause at the close by a fraction of the audience that stayed to the end...the Finale, which exceeded all its predecessors in oddities, was only experienced to the last extreme by a little host of hardy adventurers...


Fascinating!  Was Hanslick (along with the majority of the audience, apparently) really bewildered even by the rather straight-forward Adagio, one of the finest and greatest pieces ever composed?  It would seem to be so.  Hanslick did not seem to be a disingenuous sort.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 23, 2021, 06:41:39 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 23, 2021, 06:21:03 AM
Digging around, I found this excerpt from an Eduard Hanslick review of the Sixth Symphony:

Fascinating!  Was Hanslick (along with the majority of the audience, apparently) really bewildered even by the rather straight-forward Adagio, one of the finest and greatest pieces ever composed?  It would seem to be so.  Hanslick did not seem to be a disingenuous sort.


Allow me to add a few more thoughts: at an early adolescent age, when I first discovered the score of the Bruckner Seventh Symphony in our public library, and found my amazement about the work increasing with every page, I have never considered a Bruckner work, no matter how "gigantic," incomprehensible!  How could a 13-year old American grasp something which an erudite and musically skilled critic had found impossible to understand?

Hanslick did not find e.g. the Fourth Symphony of Brahms incomprehensible, although when given a taste of it in piano form, he wrote that he felt as if he had been "clubbed by two intelligent ruffians."  Later, with the full orchestra performing it, he became enthusiastic.  Yet there are still some people who find that work rather enigmatic (For me, however, its somewhat enigmatic nature is one of its attractions.)

So perhaps the anti-Wagner bias in Hanslick prevented an understanding of Bruckner's works from properly forming.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 09, 2021, 03:25:01 AM
A curiosity offered by the Anton Bruckner website: an opera called Geschnitzte Heiligkeit  (Carved Holiness/Sanctity) by a composer named Peter Androsch.  Apparently it deals with Bruckner and the few women in his life.


https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/April21/ (https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/April21/)


Skimming through the composer's remarks upon the libretto, I found a good deal of Freudian "mother fixation" given as the reason for Bruckner's "inability to approach the opposite sex."

Well, sure, why not?   ;)

No presence on YouTube!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Bruckner Goes Star Trek + 5th Symphony
Post by: Cato on April 12, 2021, 04:25:42 AM
Quote from: Cato on April 09, 2021, 03:25:01 AM
A curiosity offered by the Anton Bruckner website: an opera called Geschnitzte Heiligkeit  (Carved Holiness/Sanctity) by a composer named Peter Androsch.  Apparently it deals with Bruckner and the few women in his life.


https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/April21/ (https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/April21/)


Skimming through the composer's remarks upon the libretto, I found a good deal of Freudian "mother fixation" given as the reason for Bruckner's "inability to approach the opposite sex."

Well, sure, why not?   ;)

No presence on YouTube!

Okay, I spent about 8 minutes with the Peter Androsch opera on "Bruckner and the women": the opening music is more of a "soundscape" with glissandos and clicks and pops, not unlike bargain-basement Stockhausen.  A low, growling voice like something from Scandinavian Suicide Krell-Metal Music comes on, then some Sprechgesang voices, followed by a kind of normal song for a minute or so, then we go back to the soundscape when slowly - for some unknown reason - the motto theme to the T.V. show Star Trek is intoned on the trumpet. ??? :o ??? :o ::)


Bruckner it ain't!   ;)


Anyway...I was thinking of Saint   0:)   Eugen  0:)   Jochum   0:) *  and specifically of his performances of the last pages in the  Finale of the Fifth Symphony.  Many years ago I read a book about Bruckner in which the author thought the conductor went awry on the DGG recording.  For the climax at the end, Jochum slows down things to a Celibidachean pace.  The author wrote that this was just wrong, and that, if anything, the ending should be speeded up.   (The score, as I recall, indicates nothing abut speeding up or slowing down for the final pages.)

Jochum does not slow things down in the same way on the 1970's recording for the Fifth Symphony with the Staatskapelle Dresden, nor with the Concertgebouw in the legendary 1980's performance.


Any thoughts on this?   What does your other favorite conductor  ;)   do at that moment?


* Canonization has not yet happened, but it is assured!  8)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Bruckner Goes Star Trek + 5th Symphony
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2021, 05:13:02 AM
Quote from: Cato on April 12, 2021, 04:25:42 AM
What does your other favorite conductor  ;)   do at that moment?

Dohnányi/Cleveland is my favorite Bruckner Fifth. He speeds up slightly going into the coda and maintains that pace through to the end.

Quote from: Cato on April 12, 2021, 04:25:42 AM
* Canonization has not yet happened, but it is assured!  8)

8)  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on April 12, 2021, 07:33:36 AM
Haitink BRSO and Klemperer NPO set and keep a moderate tempo to the bitter end. The energy generated is practically unbearable. I can certainly understand a conductor getting carried away and speeding things up in a live performance. It's almost inhuman to ask a normal person not to start levitating, arms flailing at that point.

Apart from the above performances my favourites include Jochum RCOA 1986 and Konwitschny. All are of the moderate/slow persuasion in the finale. I also love the faster, more dynamic Suitner and Rögner versions. They also boast superb playing and sonics.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 12, 2021, 10:39:05 AM
Quote from: André on April 12, 2021, 07:33:36 AM

Haitink BRSO and Klemperer NPO set and keep a moderate tempo to the bitter end. The energy generated is practically unbearable. I can certainly understand a conductor getting carried away and speeding things up in a live performance. It's almost inhuman to ask a normal person not to start levitating, arms flailing at that point.



:D  I know and have known that feeling!


Quote from: André on April 12, 2021, 07:33:36 AM

Apart from the above performances my favourites include Jochum RCOA 1986 and Konwitschny. All are of the moderate/slow persuasion in the finale. I also love the faster, more dynamic Suitner and Rögner versions. They also boast superb playing and sonics.



Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2021, 05:13:02 AM

Dohnányi/Cleveland is my favorite Bruckner Fifth. He speeds up slightly going into the coda and maintains that pace through to the end.


Sarge


Many thanks for the recommendations!


I found the Konwitschny performance of the Fifth on YouTube: I have not heard the entire performance.  So far, the early 1960's sound is quite good.



https://www.youtube.com/v/9Qm22wyZ02I

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Bruckner Goes Star Trek + 5th Symphony
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 12, 2021, 12:56:41 PM
Quote from: Cato on April 12, 2021, 04:25:42 AM
(The score, as I recall, indicates nothing abut speeding up or slowing down for the final pages.)


So I guess conductors shouldn't do either  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Bruckner Goes Star Trek + 5th Symphony
Post by: Cato on April 12, 2021, 01:22:46 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 12, 2021, 12:56:41 PM

So I guess conductors shouldn't do either  ;)


:D

Heh-heh!  Bruckner was fairly sparse in directions, which lack perhaps was Bruckner's way of allowing for interpretations.  Given what has been written about his abilities in improvising on the organ, I suspect that, if a conductor wanted to "improvise" something, he would not be against it. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 01, 2021, 05:40:19 AM
A broadcast concert of the Bruckner Symphony #5 from Vienna.

Christian Thielemann conducting the Vienna Philharmonic:


https://oe1.orf.at/player/20210501/636042/1619859783268?fbclid=IwAR27fFw7weVVMddhkatq3hW0Rf8bCgVvm9z47_vp6Qw-cStL50JmM8KzQ5c (https://oe1.orf.at/player/20210501/636042/1619859783268?fbclid=IwAR27fFw7weVVMddhkatq3hW0Rf8bCgVvm9z47_vp6Qw-cStL50JmM8KzQ5c)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Symphony #6 in Shanghai
Post by: Cato on May 07, 2021, 08:43:44 AM
I came across this article today:

Quote

"...In the second half of the concert, the orchestra performed Bruckner's "Symphony No. 6," under the baton of conductor Lu Jia, who is also music director of the orchestra.

This year marks the 125th anniversary of Anton Bruckner's death. Lu, a Shanghai native and Bruckner fan, said the sixth symphony is the Austrian composer's "most complex and best-quality" work.

"We experience the mystery of mathematics in Bach's works; we see the charm of a child prodigy in Mozart's works; we hear the greatness of heroes in Beethoven's composition," he said, "but in Bruckner's works, we open up ourselves and get close to the sky, the earth and nature, and confront ourselves...."


Interesting view! 

See:

https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/2104167528/ (https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/2104167528/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Symphony #6 in Shanghai
Post by: Cato on May 09, 2021, 05:15:20 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 07, 2021, 08:43:44 AM
I came across this article today:

Quote

"...In the second half of the concert, the orchestra performed Bruckner's "Symphony No. 6," under the baton of conductor Lu Jia, who is also music director of the orchestra.

This year marks the 125th anniversary of Anton Bruckner's death. Lu, a Shanghai native and Bruckner fan, said the sixth symphony is the Austrian composer's "most complex and best-quality" work.

"We experience the mystery of mathematics in Bach's works; we see the charm of a child prodigy in Mozart's works; we hear the greatness of heroes in Beethoven's composition," he said, "but in Bruckner's works, we open up ourselves and get close to the sky, the earth and nature, and confront ourselves...."




Interesting view! 

See:

https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/2104167528/ (https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/2104167528/)


A few thoughts on the conductor's comment: an often-made comment one hears or reads concerns the "religious" or "pious" sound one detects in Bruckner's music, undoubtedly because he was a religious man, a church organist, who composed Masses and motets for the Catholic Church.

It is interesting to read that "the sky" and "Nature" itself opens up for Mr. Jia.  Looking back to my first experiences with the Bruckner symphonies, when I was barely a teenager in the early/mid-1960's, I do recall the music evoking such images at times.  Of course, those can have their religious aspects also.  What I recall the most, however, from my initiations, is the thrill of the emotional evocations found in the themes, the sudden outbursts, and in the great, slowly burgeoning climaxes. 

Whether self-confrontation was involved...perhaps, I can no longer say for sure.  What I can say is that throughout the decades I have always undergone different experiences with every hearing, and never felt that I was tired of listening to any of the works.  Rather, I expected to hear something I had never sensed before, and that expectation has always been met.

Yes, the Sixth Symphony is a great favorite.   "Most complex" ?  I can understand that opinion, given - at first hearing, or even more than one hearing  - the seemingly disparate nature of the movements.  "Best quality"?  I am unsure what he means by that, except if he considers it to be the most complex symphony, "best quality" might follow from that opinion. 

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 21, 2021, 06:58:42 AM
New CD of Bruckner's Third Symphony (Nowak Edition)


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71T9t66JsIL._SX425_.jpg)



with conductor Christian Thielemann: on Amazon some reviews are 5-star, here is a fairly negative one with some interesting phrases.


Quote


Die Wiener Philharmoniker sind brave Musikanten, Thielemann ist ein braver Dirigent, und alle zusammen lassen Bruckner einen braven Mann sein, der brave Musik komponiert hat. Naja. So klingt's zumindest für mich. Spannung kommt in dieser Aufnahme ... von Bruckners 3. Sinfonie bestenfalls in homöopathischen Dosen auf, Thielemann reiht sich ein in die Legion der durchschnittlichen Bruckner-Dirigenten der 70er und 80er (zu denen auch Thielemanns unüberhörbares Klang-Vorbild Karajan zählt), .... Viel indifferente Wucht, wenig differenzierende Klanggewalt. Eine Sinfonie, die wie ein akustischer Godzilla aus einem Notenmeer steigt, und alles niedertrampelt, was filigran sein könnte...



"The Vienna Philharmonic has nice musicians.  Thielemann is a nice conductor, and together they all allow Bruckner to be a nice man, who has composed nice music.  Oh well!  At least that's how it sounds to me.  Excitement in this recording of Bruckner's Third is best taken in homeopathic doses.  Thielemann ranks among the legion of average Bruckner conductors of the 70's and 80's (counted among them is also Thielemann's unmistakable Sound-Model Karajan) ...a very indifferent momentum, few distinctions in dynamics.  A symphony, which climbs from the deep sea of musical notes like an acoustic Godzilla and tramples everything which could be delicate..."


(My translation above)

I have not heard any of Thielemann's other Bruckner CD's: any opinions on them?  Reviews on Amazon are mixed for them also.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 21, 2021, 03:43:07 PM
Interesting the thought about Bruckner as a religious composer, obviously he was a deeply pious Catholic but he did write more symphonies than masses! Japanese followers of western classical music seem to like his music and perhaps they find in it something like a more Buddhist mysticism?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on May 22, 2021, 07:00:18 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 21, 2021, 06:58:42 AM
New CD of Bruckner's Third Symphony (Nowak Edition)


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71T9t66JsIL._SX425_.jpg)



with conductor Christian Thielemann: on Amazon some reviews are 5-star, here is a fairly negative one with some interesting phrases.


"The Vienna Philharmonic has nice musicians.  Thielemann is a nice conductor, and together they all allow Bruckner to be a nice man, who has composed nice music.  Oh well!  At least that's how it sounds to me.  Excitement in this recording of Bruckner's Third is best taken in homeopathic doses.  Thielemann ranks among the legion of average Bruckner conductors of the 70's and 80's (counted among them is also Thielemann's unmistakable Sound-Model Karajan) ...a very indifferent momentum, few distinctions in dynamics.  A symphony, which climbs from the deep sea of musical notes like an acoustic Godzilla and tramples everything which could be delicate..."


(My translation above)

I have not heard any of Thielemann's other Bruckner CD's: any opinions on them?  Reviews on Amazon are mixed for them also.

I've been wondering about these newer Thielemann recordings as well. It seems some of the negative reviews I've read mention his Staatskapelle Dresden performances being much better, which I'd have no argument with since I believe those performances to be top-drawer. It seems in Wiener, he's reeled in some of the excitement and adds in more vanilla, which could never be a good thing.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on May 22, 2021, 07:02:45 AM
Any opinions on the Gergiev cycle?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81gQsB%2BbvUL._SL1500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: aukhawk on May 23, 2021, 04:16:19 AM
I'm no Brucknerian (I generally prefer the Venzago recordings which tells you all you need to know) but I do really like the Gergiev 2nd.  It's a fine recording of an absolutely gorgeous acoustic setting, and probably my favourite single Bruckner record out of those I have.  (2nd place - the Honeck 9th.)  I've read that the cycle as a whole is uneven though, with the 4th for example attracting adverse comments, whether for performance or recording I don't know - I think the 4th was recorded some time before tne 2nd so maybe the partership was not fully formed.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on May 23, 2021, 06:38:01 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 23, 2021, 04:16:19 AM
I'm no Brucknerian (I generally prefer the Venzago recordings which tells you all you need to know) but I do really like the Gergiev 2nd.  It's a fine recording of an absolutely gorgeous acoustic setting, and probably my favourite single Bruckner record out of those I have.  (2nd place - the Honeck 9th.)  I've read that the cycle as a whole is uneven though, with the 4th for example attracting adverse comments, whether for performance or recording I don't know - I think the 4th was recorded some time before tne 2nd so maybe the partership was not fully formed.

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I've read reviews on this cycle as well and they're all over the map from excellent to lousy. Gergiev is an extremely erratic conductor. He has more misses than hits in my experience (his Mahler, for example, was a travesty). I just can't imagine him being too convincing of a Brucknerian.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 27, 2021, 08:34:19 AM
For those interested, a specialist's curio: the long voyage of Bruckner's 3rd symphony's manuscript is described in photos on John Berky's web site. The manuscript itself is photographed - all of it - starting from slide 201.

From Bruckner's death onward it was handed to or used for performance or study by all kinds of people, from Mahler to his widow Alma, to Schalk, Löwe, Rättig, etc. Paintings of some of these people by Schoenberg and Kokoschka are included. The 1920s and 30s Vienna is also pictured (the Musikverein, the entry of the Nazis in Vienna, the Palais Mollard-Clary of the Austrian National Library where the manuscript is now kept, etc). Fascinating stuff.


https://www.abruckner.com/down/articles/articlesEnglish/houle-gilles-the-long-journey-of-the-manuscript-of/TheLongJourneyOfTheManuscriptOfTheThirdSymphony_Images.pdf (https://www.abruckner.com/down/articles/articlesEnglish/houle-gilles-the-long-journey-of-the-manuscript-of/TheLongJourneyOfTheManuscriptOfTheThirdSymphony_Images.pdf)

The written storybook of all this is in a second link of some 379 pages. That's way too much for me and, I guess, for most people, even the most ardent brucknerian. I'd rather look at the pictures !

https://www.abruckner.com/down/articles/articlesEnglish/houle-gilles-the-long-journey-of-the-manuscript-of/TheLongJourneyOfTheManuscriptOfTheThirdSymphony_Text.pdf (https://www.abruckner.com/down/articles/articlesEnglish/houle-gilles-the-long-journey-of-the-manuscript-of/TheLongJourneyOfTheManuscriptOfTheThirdSymphony_Text.pdf)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 12, 2021, 06:01:17 PM
A live performance from Cologne: Mass #2 in E  minor

https://www.youtube.com/v/YqlcXpPdaBc
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 24, 2021, 05:49:25 AM
I just happened to notice this on the Anton Bruckner website (www.abruckner.com): record companies maltreating their customers, this time via the Paavo Järvi Bruckner cycle:


Quote

After years of having the recordings available, Sony / RCA Red Seal finally gets around to releasing the Paavo Jarvi Bruckner cycle as a complete set. But this release really annoys me!!! There are several reasons:

1) Sony / RCA have been sitting on these recordings for years. Look at the recording dates:


Symphony 0 - March, 2017 Never released as a single CD.

(Numbers refer to the symphonies)

[1] February 6, 2013
[2] March 30 - April 1, 2011
[3] March 19-21, 2014
[4] September 3-5, 2009
[5] April 2-3 & May 28-30, 2009
[6] May 20-22, 2010
[7] November 22-24, 2006
[8] October, 2011 Never released as a single CD.
[9] February 27-29, 2008

They have been trickling out this series of recordings for over ten years and the final recording (Die Nullte) has been available for four years.

2) Sony / RCA is following the disgusting practice of issuing the set without offering two of the recordings as single releases. So, the patrons who have supported this project by purchasing the recordings as they have been released over the last decade are now the ones who are punished by not being offered the last two recordings. Now they are supposed to purchase the complete set???

3) I have seen situations when the complete set has been offered at a discounted price thus alleviating some of the pain for those who have purchased the individual CDs, but Sony / RCA is putting out their "limited edition" for the outrageous price of $200.00!

SHAME ON THEM!!


See:  https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/news/bmg-to-release-paavo-jarvi-bruckner-cyclebut/ (https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/news/bmg-to-release-paavo-jarvi-bruckner-cyclebut/)

Has this been typical for other cycles?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on June 24, 2021, 01:01:41 PM
^Who on earth is paying $200 for the Paavo Järvi Bruckner cycle...?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 05, 2021, 05:14:39 AM
Courtesy of a Bruckner fan:

https://www.youtube.com/v/G8zuELOE5eo

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on July 05, 2021, 06:35:22 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 24, 2021, 01:01:41 PM
^Who on earth is paying $200 for the Paavo Järvi Bruckner cycle...?

Someone with deep pockets apparently. ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 01, 2021, 05:05:54 AM
I have been oppressed for most of the summer by preparing our "new" (60 years old) retirement house for our arrival some time this month (I hope!) and preparing our present house for its sale!


Anyway, I took a few spare moments this morning to read a few things, and this popped up on FaceBook: The Second Symphony under Georg Solti and the Chicago Symphony.


https://www.youtube.com/v/vj_ANtp4iMs
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on August 01, 2021, 08:21:47 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 01, 2021, 05:05:54 AM
I have been oppressed for most of the summer by preparing our "new" (60 years old) retirement house for our arrival some time this month (I hope!) and preparing our present house for its sale!


Anyway, I took a few spare moments this morning to read a few things, and this popped up on FaceBook: The Second Symphony under Georg Solti and the Chicago Symphony.


https://www.youtube.com/v/vj_ANtp4iMs

I heard it only once many moons ago but seem to recall it as a high point in Solti's uneven CSO traversal.

Are you moving far, Leo ? Good luck for everything !  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 01, 2021, 12:05:17 PM
Quote from: André on August 01, 2021, 08:21:47 AM

I heard it only once many moons ago but seem to recall it as a high point in Solti's uneven CSO traversal.

Are you moving far, Leo ? Good luck for everything !  :)

Thank you, Andre'!   I will need to find an hour to listen to it.

We are moving c. 2 hours to the northwest here in Ohio, near my wife's hometown.  Things were supposed to be easier when you retired.... :o :o :o   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: VonStupp on August 01, 2021, 01:03:04 PM
Quote from: André on August 01, 2021, 08:21:47 AM
I heard it only once many moons ago but seem to recall it as a high point in Solti's uneven CSO traversal.

Yes, I would say Solti and Chicago are best in Bruckner's earliest symphonies. I don't know if anyone clambers for Symphonies 0-2, though.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on August 01, 2021, 02:23:51 PM
Quote from: VonStupp on August 01, 2021, 01:03:04 PM
Yes, I would say Solti and Chicago are best in Bruckner's earliest symphonies. I don't know if anyone clambers for Symphonies 0-2, though.

Well, count me in ! They are extremely refreshing in their boldness and rythmic drive.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 01, 2021, 02:51:48 PM
Quote from: André on August 01, 2021, 02:23:51 PM
Well, count me in ! They are extremely refreshing in their boldness and rythmic drive.

Amen!  I will never forget a live performance in the Toledo Rosary Cathedral of Die Nullte by the Toledo Symphony under Stefan Sanderling some years ago.  They obviously believed that the symphony was no minor-league exercise, but a major work by a great composer!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: VonStupp on August 01, 2021, 03:31:31 PM
Quote from: André on August 01, 2021, 02:23:51 PM
Well, count me in ! They are extremely refreshing in their boldness and rhythmic drive.

Yes, and you get that in spades with Solti.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on August 19, 2021, 01:27:18 AM
Good review of new Chandos recording of the 6th Symphony
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2021/Aug/Bruckner-sy6-CHAN20221.htm
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 19, 2021, 12:08:42 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 19, 2021, 01:27:18 AM
Good review of new Chandos recording of the 6th Symphony
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2021/Aug/Bruckner-sy6-CHAN20221.htm

Nice! I received this disc a few weeks ago and agree, it's a very good recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on August 19, 2021, 12:34:41 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 19, 2021, 12:08:42 PM
Nice! I received this disc a few weeks ago and agree, it's a very good recording.
Good to know!
:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 03, 2021, 04:52:09 PM
Apparently Herbert Blomstedt (age 94) conducted Bruckner's Symphony #5 with the Berlin Philharmonic this weekend!

Of interest therefore:

https://www.berliner-philharmoniker.de/en/blomstedt-interview-bruckner/?fbclid=IwAR304DbBFPG2UTxZmzrmiNeAIb-dmJ5LphbGVBRfawRqul7e7diEO6XaCoY (https://www.berliner-philharmoniker.de/en/blomstedt-interview-bruckner/?fbclid=IwAR304DbBFPG2UTxZmzrmiNeAIb-dmJ5LphbGVBRfawRqul7e7diEO6XaCoY)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 09, 2021, 10:49:14 PM
Unfortunately it's happened  :(

After trying hard not to get pernickety about the cymbals and triangle in the Adagio of the 7th I have become so. It started with Rosbaud's recording and since then I have found his recording of the Adagio without percussion much more powerful and sustained in its momentum than other recordings which do include the crash and tingles.

All the other recordings I have have the percussion. What are some modern recordings that omit them?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MusicTurner on October 09, 2021, 11:05:00 PM
Quote from: Cato on October 03, 2021, 04:52:09 PM
Apparently Herbert Blomstedt (age 94) conducted Bruckner's Symphony #5 with the Berlin Philharmonic this weekend!

Of interest therefore:

https://www.berliner-philharmoniker.de/en/blomstedt-interview-bruckner/?fbclid=IwAR304DbBFPG2UTxZmzrmiNeAIb-dmJ5LphbGVBRfawRqul7e7diEO6XaCoY (https://www.berliner-philharmoniker.de/en/blomstedt-interview-bruckner/?fbclid=IwAR304DbBFPG2UTxZmzrmiNeAIb-dmJ5LphbGVBRfawRqul7e7diEO6XaCoY)

That's surely a very impressive level of activity for that age. He'll be setting records, if he isn't already doing it ... I think Stokowski was 92 at his last concert in 1974. BTW, Wiki has a list of centenarian musicians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_centenarians_(musicians,_composers_and_music_patrons)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on October 09, 2021, 11:37:37 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 09, 2021, 10:49:14 PM
After trying hard not to get pernickety about the cymbals and triangle in the Adagio of the 7th I have become so. It started with Rosbaud's recording and since then I have found his recording of the Adagio without percussion much more powerful and sustained in its momentum than other recordings which do include the crash and tingles.

All the other recordings I have have the percussion. What are some modern recordings that omit them?
There must be a list somewhere on the internet for this... ;)
I never much cared either way (it's one of the handful of things where I cannot really understand why everyone puts so much importance on them - like the hammer blows in Mahler or the octave glissandi in the Waldstein sonata), so I don't remember but I suspect that Gielen might be following Rosbaud here.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Maestro267 on October 10, 2021, 04:31:45 AM
If Bruckner deployed percussion regularly it wouldn't be such a problem.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on October 10, 2021, 09:18:44 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 09, 2021, 10:49:14 PM
Unfortunately it's happened  :(

After trying hard not to get pernickety about the cymbals and triangle in the Adagio of the 7th I have become so. It started with Rosbaud's recording and since then I have found his recording of the Adagio without percussion much more powerful and sustained in its momentum than other recordings which do include the crash and tingles.

All the other recordings I have have the percussion. What are some modern recordings that omit them?




From Berky's web site, this page gives the list of all available versions of the 7th. At the beginning it states that
Quote
There is only one version of the Symphony No. 7, but there are differences between the editions prepared by Robert Haas and Leopold Nowak. The primary difference is the inclusion of the cymbals in the Adagio in the Nowak edition

So, Nowak = cymbals, Haas = timpani only.

https://www.abruckner.com/discography1/symphonyno7inemajo/ (https://www.abruckner.com/discography1/symphonyno7inemajo/)

Scrolling down will reveal all extant recordings by edition(Haas-no-cymbals first, Nowak-cum-cymbals second).

Voilà !
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on October 10, 2021, 12:22:36 PM
Currently enjoying this (No.5)

I first came across Rosbaud's Bruckner when, as a teenager, I bought his Vox/Turnabout LP of Symphony No.7 in my early days of discovering classical music:
(//)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 10, 2021, 12:53:12 PM
Quote from: André on October 10, 2021, 09:18:44 AM



From Berky's web site, this page gives the list of all available versions of the 7th. At the beginning it states that
So, Nowak = cymbals, Haas = timpani only.

https://www.abruckner.com/discography1/symphonyno7inemajo/ (https://www.abruckner.com/discography1/symphonyno7inemajo/)

Scrolling down will reveal all extant recordings by edition(Haas-no-cymbals first, Nowak-cum-cymbals second).

Voilà !

Ah, thanks, so apart from Rosbaud the main ones are Asahina, Karajan, Thielemann and Wand.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on October 11, 2021, 03:19:45 PM
October 11th, 2021 is the 125th anniversary of Bruckner's death. This is his resting place in St Florian Abbey:

(http://www.abruckner.com/getimage.asp?id=/editorsnote/news/october-11-2021-the-125th-anniversary-of-anton-bru/&filename=IMG_7974.jpg&mode=6)

Note the crypt with thousands of craniums in the background...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on October 12, 2021, 01:34:38 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 10, 2021, 12:22:36 PM
Currently enjoying this (No.5)

I first came across Rosbaud's Bruckner when, as a teenager, I bought his Vox/Turnabout LP of Symphony No.7 in my early days of discovering classical music:


Note that the 7 in the SWR box is from a mono tape.  The same performance was also recorded in true stereo (and much better sound than the Vox CD).  I have it in this box:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41y568udnwL.jpg)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001E1DHFO/

 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 18, 2021, 05:50:57 PM
Wow, Bob!  WOW!

Concerning the climax in the Adagio of the Seventh Symphony, and many other things...

"Many of the apparent weaknesses in Bruckner's music - his long - windedness, his inconsequentiality, his naive literalism - prove to be motes in our eye rather than in his ear. We listen with irrelevant preconceptions; and this is not entirely our fault because it is not easy to hear Bruckner's scores as he wrote them.

So great was his humility that he allowed well-meaning friends to rewrite and rescore his works in order to make them more acceptable to conventional notions of symphonic style. His themes-except perhaps in his scherzos-are spacious and not time-obsessed; and although the first movement of his Fifth is undeniably shorter without its recapitulation, it does not make better sense. Even if one never comes to recognize the logic in Bruckner's vast structures, there are moments when one wonders, listening to these last three adagios, whether since the last works of Beethoven music has reached this point again.

The climax of the Adagio to the Seventh - and therefore of the whole work - is a conflictless paean of bells on a C major triad, which grows out of softly upsurging scales on the violins. It is naive if you like. Yet it is also an incarnation of Glory, and only a man who had seen this vision could have written the elegy with which the movement then concludes; funereal music, inspired by the death of Wagner, in which there is regret, but no shadow of fear. In his very innocence, Bruckner seems in such moments to belong to a nobler race than our own. It is no more than a sober statement of fact to say that we shall never look upon his like again."
                   

  --Wilfred Mellers, "The Sonata Principle"
                         p. 693, Barrie and Jenkins,London 1988


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 20, 2021, 04:52:08 AM
Quote from: Cato on October 18, 2021, 05:50:57 PM


The climax of the Adagio to the Seventh - and therefore of the whole work - is a conflictless paean of bells on a C major triad, which grows out of softly upsurging scales on the violins. It is naive if you like. Yet it is also an incarnation of Glory, and only a man who had seen this vision could have written the elegy with which the movement then concludes; funereal music, inspired by the death of Wagner, in which there is regret, but no shadow of fear. In his very innocence, Bruckner seems in such moments to belong to a nobler race than our own. It is no more than a sober statement of fact to say that we shall never look upon his like again."
                   

  --Wilfred Mellers, "The Sonata Principle"
                         p. 693, Barrie and Jenkins,London 1988[/size][/font]

A more melancholy statement would be difficult to find.  Rather, I believe that such people still do persist in the human race, but that their creativity, if it is not killed in its infancy, is drowned out by the cacophony of kulcheral mediocrity (and of things much worse than the mediocre ones) being lionized as genius today.

I would like to believe that a 21st-century Bruckner or Beethoven or (Insert Name Here) can still be found, but one must search for them much more diligently and with more difficulty than ever before to discover them.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Bernard Haitink and Bruckner
Post by: Cato on October 22, 2021, 03:20:40 AM
What are your thoughts on the Haitink set of Bruckner symphonies?

By a certain James Leonard:

Quote

Does anyone outside of the Benelux countries remember the Haitink/ Concertgebouw/Bruckner cycle? With competition from the more glamorous Karajan/Berlin cycle and the more muscular Solti/Chicago cycle, not to mention the more spiritual Jochum/Bavarian/Berlin cycle, the more straightforward Haitink/Concertgebouw cycle probably doesn't stick in the memories of most international listeners. And yet there are many good reasons to prefer the Haitink/Concertgebouw cycle. For one thing, there's Haitink. A consummate professional with less ego and arguably more integrity than Karajan and more sincerity than Solti, Haitink was more than willing to let Bruckner's symphonies unfold in their own good time....




See:

https://www.allmusic.com/album/bruckner-the-symphonies-mw0001840021 (https://www.allmusic.com/album/bruckner-the-symphonies-mw0001840021)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 22, 2021, 03:37:08 AM
I must admit I do enjoy Bruckner red in tooth and claw but that said The Haitink/Concertgebouw cycle is an absolute prime example of how to let the music unfold with a sure sense of musical direction and utter control.  Very fine indeed.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 22, 2021, 04:20:32 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 22, 2021, 03:37:08 AM
I must admit I do enjoy Bruckner red in tooth and claw but that said The Haitink/Concertgebouw cycle is an absolute prime example of how to let the music unfold with a sure sense of musical direction and utter control.  Very fine indeed.

Many thanks for the comment...and your picture of the "merry" people waiting for their excursion is a classic!  ;)

I wonder how Haitink would fare in a comparison with Carl Schuricht, who was also known for a straight-forward approach in his recordings of the symphonies.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mirror Image on October 22, 2021, 06:29:13 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 22, 2021, 03:37:08 AM
I must admit I do enjoy Bruckner red in tooth and claw but that said The Haitink/Concertgebouw cycle is an absolute prime example of how to let the music unfold with a sure sense of musical direction and utter control.  Very fine indeed.

Absolutely. The Haitink/RCO cycle is one of the great ones, but he remained a master Brucknerian throughout his long and distinguished career. His 6th with the Staatskapelle Dresden on Profil is stunning.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Bernard Haitink and Bruckner
Post by: André on October 22, 2021, 07:05:06 AM
Quote from: Cato on October 22, 2021, 03:20:40 AM
What are your thoughts on the Haitink set of Bruckner symphonies?

By a certain James Leonard:



See:

https://www.allmusic.com/album/bruckner-the-symphonies-mw0001840021 (https://www.allmusic.com/album/bruckner-the-symphonies-mw0001840021)

Hmmm... this article is full of stereotypes, not to mention a surfeit of the adverb 'more'...

My first ever recordings of the 1st and 8th were Haitink's COA versions. That 1st is still my go-to version and the 8th remains a top choice for a dynamic, biting account of the work - Haitink slowed the tempi down in the 8th with each of his numerous remakes. His 1960s-70s COA cycle is still the reference for me. He did improve his take on the 5th (with the BRSO) and the 7th (COA again) subsequently.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Bernard Haitink and Bruckner
Post by: Cato on October 22, 2021, 08:17:58 AM
Quote from: André on October 22, 2021, 07:05:06 AM


Hmmm... this article is full of stereotypes, not to mention a surfeit of the adverb 'more'...


My first ever recordings of the 1st and 8th were Haitink's COA versions. That 1st is still my go-to version and the 8th remains a top choice for a dynamic, biting account of the work - Haitink slowed the tempi down in the 8th with each of his numerous remakes. His 1960s-70s COA cycle is still the reference for me. He did improve his take on the 5th (with the BRSO) and the 7th (COA again) subsequently.


I was skeptical of the curious divisions (egotistical, spiritual) among the conductors mentioned.

(Saint)     ???   Eugen Jochum   8)   remains my favorite for all the symphonies, but yes, the First and Eighth under Haitink are excellent!


e.g.

https://www.youtube.com/v/TEAtorNdCZw


This performance of the 8th I have not yet heard: it popped up, when I found the above recording.

https://www.youtube.com/v/sjSRv3MDQHU
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on October 22, 2021, 08:35:05 AM
Haitink is one of the three complete cycles I have, acquired about two years ago. I have lots of other individual recordings but have not felt the need to invest in any new cycles since then (except Venzago). I think he still remains the most satisfying Bruckner conductor I know of overall even if I may be able to point to individual symphony recordings by other conductors that I like better (e.g., Vänskä 3, Dohnányi 5, Chailly 8, Rattle 9).

I am, obviously, widely hated by all true Brucknerians. I think the primacy of Haitink is the one thing we're all likely to agree on.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MusicTurner on October 22, 2021, 09:54:32 AM
Quote from: amw on October 22, 2021, 08:35:05 AM
Haitink is one of the three complete cycles I have, acquired about two years ago. I have lots of other individual recordings but have not felt the need to invest in any new cycles since then (except Venzago). I think he still remains the most satisfying Bruckner conductor I know of overall even if I may be able to point to individual symphony recordings by other conductors that I like better (e.g., Vänskä 3, Dohnányi 5, Chailly 8, Rattle 9).

I am, obviously, widely hated by all true Brucknerians. I think the primacy of Haitink is the one thing we're all likely to agree on.

I have the 8th & 9th with Concertgebouw (DDD, 1981 & 1982), and they are definitely among my preferred recordings. Massive, broad readings, but very intense too, IMO.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 22, 2021, 11:10:56 AM
Quote from: amw on October 22, 2021, 08:35:05 AM

Haitink is one of the three complete cycles I have, acquired about two years ago. I have lots of other individual recordings but have not felt the need to invest in any new cycles since then (except Venzago). I think he* still remains the most satisfying Bruckner conductor I know of overall

(e.g.,  Dohnányi 5Rattle 9).



* I assume the "he" refers back to Haitink and jumps over Venzago (?)


The Dohnányi Fifth and Rattle Ninth (with the completion of the Finale by the quartet of musicologists) are excellent: the latter is a great favorite!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on October 22, 2021, 11:56:03 AM
Quote from: Cato on October 22, 2021, 11:10:56 AM

* I assume the "he" refers back to Haitink and jumps over Venzago (?)
Yes, sorry. I like Venzago a lot but am well aware that most people aren't going to agree with me, while Haitink seems universally liked if not always loved.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 22, 2021, 03:14:42 PM
Quote from: amw on October 22, 2021, 11:56:03 AM
Yes, sorry. I like Venzago a lot but am well aware that most people aren't going to agree with me, while Haitink seems universally liked if not always loved.

A review from Amazon about the Symphony #2 conducted by Mario Venzago:

Quote

"Anybody collecting Mario Venzago's controversial Bruckner cycle (currently Symphonies 0, 1, 4 & 7 have been released) will already have some idea of what to expect in this recording of the 1877 edition of Symphony No 2: a slim orchestral sound, swift tempos and flexible phrasing.

Each release in the cycle so far has been with a different orchestra. This recording is with the mostly excellent Northern Sinfonia. Straight away the sound is tellingly "HIP" with a startlingly spare use of vibrato in the opening cello phrases. More startles come with the very free rubato in the phrasing (and throughout the performance). In an interview in the accompanying booklet Venzago argues for the use of "agogic freedom" in interpreting Bruckner, and in its own terms I find this rhetorical approach very persuasively deployed here, in this "Symphony of Pauses".

The Adagio is gorgeous, with the string playing allowed more warmth than in the outer movements and some beautiful playing from the horns and woodwinds in particular - all allowed to emerge unforcedly in the resonant (but not over resonant) acoustic of the recording venue: Hall One, The Sage, Gateshead. Technically, this recording sounds excellent.

The idea of Venzago as a fast Bruckner conductor does not hold for the Adagio. His interpretation takes 17' 42" - two minutes slower than that of Gunther Wand's Cologne RSO recording!

One particular merit of Venzago's Bruckner is its discipline in keeping the brass integrated into the orchestral texture during climaxes. This allows Bruckner's obsessively chatty string writing to be heard, which forms such an important part of the overall argument of the works - though at times (the climax of the Adagio for example) it might seem that just too much is going on. "



See:

https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-2-Anton/dp/B007S6R3E0 (https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-2-Anton/dp/B007S6R3E0)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Live Recordings with Jochum/Concertgebouw
Post by: Cato on October 31, 2021, 08:51:07 AM
This just came across the desk: a "new mastering" of Symphonies IV, VI,VII, and VIII.


https://www.youtube.com/v/30Inf9Ax9RI



They also offer this "Recording of the Century" of Symphony #5:


https://www.youtube.com/v/6J4IDfajZHw&list=RD6J4IDfajZHw&start_radio=1&rv=6J4IDfajZHw&t=41



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on October 31, 2021, 09:47:05 AM
Is there a topic devoted specifically to the 4th symphony ('Romantic') ?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on October 31, 2021, 10:22:01 AM
Cross-posted:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/819oZMsv+3L._AC_SL400_.jpg)

Disc 4, the 1876 finale (aka 'Volkfest' plus the alternative versions of various movements in the 1878, 1880 and 1881 versions. That symphony's tangle of versions, editions, alternative movements and the like is just as complicated as that of the 3rd symphony. Bruckner seems to have found his way with the final version of the Romantic. After that it was comparatively smooth sailing, until he hit a snag again with the 8th.

This disc of discarded or unpublished bits of the 4th (including complete performances of the 1876 and 1881 finale) makes for compelling listening. The performances are superb. Hrusa's Bruckner is closer to Schubert and Dvorak than Mahler and Strauss.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 01, 2021, 12:42:18 PM
For the Haitink fans out there!

The Bruckner website is offering FLAC downloads of Bernard Haitink conducting the European Youth Orchestra in Bruckner's Seventh Symphony.



QuoteWith news of the death of conductor, Bernard Haitink, I sent readers of this newsletter a link to my June, 2017 Download of the Month containing Haitink's performance of the Bruckner Symphony No. 8 with the European Community Youth Orchestra. That performance produced quite a stir among listeners for its extraordinary playing and interpretation.

This month, I will provide one more example. Here is a performance of Bruckner's Symphony No. 7 as presented by Bernard Haitink and the European Youth Orchestra in Amsterdam on August 29th, 2016
.


https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/November21/ (https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/November21/)


I have had no time to listen to these offerings yet.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on November 04, 2021, 07:41:40 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on October 22, 2021, 09:54:32 AM
I have the 8th & 9th with Concertgebouw (DDD, 1981 & 1982), and they are definitely among my preferred recordings. Massive, broad readings, but very intense too, IMO.

+1

My favorite recordings of these two works for nearly forty years. One of the interesting facets is the difference in engineering, with the 8th miked more closely. In the 9th, the acoustic ( or, if you like, character ) of the Concertgebouw itself is every bit as important as Haitink or the orchestra. I don't know if they removed seats to center the orchestra in the hall but the sound is, at many points, as gloriously epic as anything I've heard in an orchestral recording.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 04, 2021, 10:22:00 AM
Quote from: LKB on November 04, 2021, 07:41:40 AM
+1

My favorite recordings of these two works for nearly forty years. One of the interesting facets is the difference in engineering, with the 8th miked more closely. In the 9th, the acoustic ( or, if you like, character ) of the Concertgebouw itself is every bit as important as Haitink or the orchestra. I don't know if they removed seats to center the orchestra in the hall but the sound is, at many points, as gloriously epic as anything I've heard in an orchestral recording.


Many thanks for the recommendation!  I must explore that performance!

Concerning acoustics and an epic sound...

About a decade ago, The Toledo Symphony, under Stefan Sanderling, began a tradition of performing a Bruckner symphony every year in the Diocese of Toledo's cathedral: I found a short essay from that era to promote the concert with the Ninth Symphony:


Quote

"...Each year another Bruckner work has been performed in this sacred space. Why the church and not the Peristyle*?

Something about Bruckner s music and the man himself make it seem a natural choice. Known as a deeply devout man, a church organist by profession, the shy, humble German villager poured his spirituality into each note.

His symphonies have been called architectural and are often compared in scale and grandeur to cathedrals. The setting enhances the music and the music deepens the spiritual power of the setting..."


See:

https://www.toledoblade.com/a-e/music-theater-dance/2008/03/23/Rosary-Cathedral-is-the-majestic-setting-for-Bruckner-symphony/stories/200803230047 (https://www.toledoblade.com/a-e/music-theater-dance/2008/03/23/Rosary-Cathedral-is-the-majestic-setting-for-Bruckner-symphony/stories/200803230047)


* The Peristyle is a Greco-Roman style theater whose ceiling is painted to look like a night-time sky, when the lights go down.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on November 04, 2021, 10:30:30 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 04, 2021, 10:22:00 AM
Many thanks for the recommendation!  I must explore that performance!

Concerning acoustics and an epic sound...

About a decade ago, The Toledo Symphony, under Stefan Sanderling, began a tradition of performing a Bruckner symphony every year in the Diocese of Toledo's cathedral: I found a short essay from that era to promote the concert with the Ninth Symphony:


Anything upcoming? My whole family is from Toledo and I owe them all a visit. Might try and arrange a trip around one of these Bruckner performances  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 04, 2021, 10:52:06 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 04, 2021, 10:30:30 AM
Anything upcoming? My whole family is from Toledo and I owe them all a visit. Might try and arrange a trip around one of these Bruckner performances  ;D

Not Bruckner, but this year it will be Handel's Messiah at the Cathedral.

They will be playing Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde - at the Peristyle - on the 19th and 20th this month.

The Bruckner tradition at the Rosary Cathedral seems to have ended in 2015.  Stefan Sanderling left in 2017, and a new bishop arrived a few years ago, so perhaps those changes are involved.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on November 04, 2021, 12:00:06 PM
Quote from: Cato on November 04, 2021, 10:52:06 AM
Not Bruckner, but this year it will be Handel's Messiah at the Cathedral.

They will be playing Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde - at the Peristyle - on the 19th and 20th this month.

The Bruckner tradition at the Rosary Cathedral seems to have ended in 2015.  Stefan Sanderling left in 2017, and a new bishop arrived a few years ago, so perhaps those changes are involved.

Hmm, too bad. Das Lied von der Erde, though; that may be worth flying up for a few days to celebrate an early Thanksgiving  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 04, 2021, 02:04:35 PM
Quote from: Cato on November 01, 2021, 12:42:18 PM
For the Haitink fans out there!

The Bruckner website is offering FLAC downloads of Bernard Haitink conducting the European Youth Orchestra in Bruckner's Seventh Symphony.


https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/November21/ (https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/November21/)

I have had no time to listen to these offerings yet.

The Seventh Symphony recording is a good one, but I went back to the June 2017 recording of the 8th with the same orchestra (different members!) and it's a ripper! It'll certainly be up there with my favourite 8ths. I particular I don't think I have ever head the harps and the Wagner tubas played so beautifully in the Adagio.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Live Recordings with Jochum/Concertgebouw
Post by: André on November 04, 2021, 04:18:33 PM
Quote from: Cato on October 31, 2021, 08:51:07 AM
This just came across the desk: a "new mastering" of Symphonies IV, VI,VII, and VIII.


https://www.youtube.com/v/30Inf9Ax9RI



They also offer this "Recording of the Century" of Symphony #5:


https://www.youtube.com/v/6J4IDfajZHw&list=RD6J4IDfajZHw&start_radio=1&rv=6J4IDfajZHw&t=41

Halfway through #4. Superb. What an orchestra ! You don't hear oboe and horn tone like that in other european orchestras. So characterful. And what amazing ensemble playing !

Do you have details on the performances, Leo ? I'v seen the date 1975. Are they all from the same year, was it a festival of some sort ?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Live Recordings with Jochum/Concertgebouw
Post by: Cato on November 04, 2021, 06:07:16 PM
Quote from: André on November 04, 2021, 04:18:33 PM
Halfway through #4. Superb. What an orchestra ! You don't hear oboe and horn tone like that in other european orchestras. So characterful. And what amazing ensemble playing !

Do you have details on the performances, Leo ? I've seen the date 1975. Are they all from the same year, was it a festival of some sort ?


Sorry no, although I have spent some time searching: the "Classical Music/Reference Recording" website, there is nothing specifically about the recording there.  They apparently do not produce CD's, they sponsor only online things like the YouTube Channel, Spotify, etc.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Live Recordings with Jochum/Concertgebouw
Post by: André on November 05, 2021, 04:38:09 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 04, 2021, 06:07:16 PM
Sorry no, although I have spent some time searching: the "Classical Music/Reference Recording" website, there is nothing specifically about the recording there.  They apparently do not produce CD's, they sponsor only online things like the YouTube Channel, Spotify, etc.

I've found them. They seem to hail from recorded concerts issued on the Altus label. Check the discography database on John Berky's Bruckner web site for details.

The 4th is from 1975 - an incredible performance, better IMO than Jochum's commercial recordings. Never heard such characterful playing from the winds and brass. What an orchestra !

I''ve also listened to the 6th, a leisurely performance of great beauty. Klemperer with the same orchestra took 6 minutes less to go through the Adagio !
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Live Recordings with Jochum/Concertgebouw
Post by: Cato on November 05, 2021, 05:02:43 AM
Quote from: André on November 05, 2021, 04:38:09 AM

I've found them. They seem to hail from recorded concerts issued on the Altus label. Check the discography database on John Berky's Bruckner web site for details.

The 4th is from 1975 - an incredible performance, better IMO than Jochum's commercial recordings. Never heard such characterful playing from the winds and brass. What an orchestra !

I''ve also listened to the 6th, a leisurely performance of great beauty. Klemperer with the same orchestra took 6 minutes less to go through the Adagio !


Aha!  The one place where I should have looked: I thought the recordings originated with that "Reference Recordings" group!  Thanks for the successful research!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on November 05, 2021, 05:26:30 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 01, 2021, 12:42:18 PM
For the Haitink fans out there!

The Bruckner website is offering FLAC downloads of Bernard Haitink conducting the European Youth Orchestra in Bruckner's Seventh Symphony.




https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/November21/ (https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/November21/)


I have had no time to listen to these offerings yet.

A little late to this party, but thanks so much for posting this, as well as those other Haitink performances. His Eighth with the Concertgebouw was my introduction to the composer, and around 1979 or so, I listened to that recording obsessively. Still love Haitink for his gentle moulding, and of course, the sound quality of the ensemble.

And I guess I need to see what all the fuss is about with Vengazo! Interpretation-wise, I have a pretty broad range for Bruckner. After that initial Haitink exposure, continued with the luxuriously polished versions from Karajan and Berlin, but later found leaner readings from Abbado, Tintner, and others. Whether slow and massive, or faster with more sinews showing -- all are welcome.

Plus, all this conversation is making me really hungry for Bruckner of any kind. Will remedy that this weekend.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 08, 2021, 03:36:10 AM
Quote from: Brewski on November 05, 2021, 05:26:30 AM
A little late to this party, but thanks so much for posting this, as well as those other Haitink performances. His Eighth with the Concertgebouw was my introduction to the composer, and around 1979 or so, I listened to that recording obsessively. Still love Haitink for his gentle moulding, and of course, the sound quality of the ensemble.

And I guess I need to see what all the fuss is about with Vengazo! Interpretation-wise, I have a pretty broad range for Bruckner. After that initial Haitink exposure, continued with the luxuriously polished versions from Karajan and Berlin, but later found leaner readings from Abbado, Tintner, and others. Whether slow and massive, or faster with more sinews showing -- all are welcome.

Plus, all this conversation is making me really hungry for Bruckner of any kind. Will remedy that this weekend.

--Bruce


Someone sent this to me via a Bruckner fan-site: a televised performance of Eugen Jochum (in his later years, perhaps early 1980's?) conducting the Seventh Symphony with the Concertgebouw Orchestra.


https://www.youtube.com/v/VuMef33J6aA
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 08, 2021, 03:42:50 AM
Quote from: Brewski on November 05, 2021, 05:26:30 AM
A little late to this party, but thanks so much for posting this, as well as those other Haitink performances. His Eighth with the Concertgebouw was my introduction to the composer, and around 1979 or so, I listened to that recording obsessively. Still love Haitink for his gentle moulding, and of course, the sound quality of the ensemble.

And I guess I need to see what all the fuss is about with Vengazo! Interpretation-wise, I have a pretty broad range for Bruckner. After that initial Haitink exposure, continued with the luxuriously polished versions from Karajan and Berlin, but later found leaner readings from Abbado, Tintner, and others. Whether slow and massive, or faster with more sinews showing -- all are welcome.

Plus, all this conversation is making me really hungry for Bruckner of any kind. Will remedy that this weekend.

--Bruce

I forgot to mention the Mario Venzago: if you know German, here is a short interview - promotional video - for the Fifth Symphony with Mario Venzago giving a religious interpretation to "this monster of a symphony."

https://www.youtube.com/v/AJj3vtdXlZo
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 11, 2021, 04:48:09 PM
I see that the Moores School Symphony Orchestra recording of the Symphonic Prelude has appeared on Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNVy_Upgvp8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNVy_Upgvp8)

The Symphonic Prelude MS was discovered in the effects of a former pupil of Bruckner's, with an ascription to the Master. This recording uses an orchestration that is more Brucknerian than the other two recordings which use a more dense orchestration, perhaps as an attempt to prove the thesis that this was really a student exercise by Mahler.

However the work sounds authentically Bruckerian, especially in this version. It's a very compressed first movement, very dramatic. The ascription has been doubted because of various harmonies in it that people think Bruckner would never have used. Can't a composer sketch and experiment?

I don't hear anything in this piece to contradict the idea that it was a sketch that Bruckner had lying about that he gave to a pupil of his as an orchestration exercise.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 15, 2021, 05:44:24 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 11, 2021, 04:48:09 PM
I see that the Moores School Symphony Orchestra recording of the Symphonic Prelude has appeared on Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNVy_Upgvp8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNVy_Upgvp8)

The Symphonic Prelude MS was discovered in the effects of a former pupil of Bruckner's, with an ascription to the Master. This recording uses an orchestration that is more Brucknerian than the other two recordings which use a more dense orchestration, perhaps as an attempt to prove the thesis that this was really a student exercise by Mahler.

However the work sounds authentically Bruckerian, especially in this version. It's a very compressed first movement, very dramatic. The ascription has been doubted because of various harmonies in it that people think Bruckner would never have used. Can't a composer sketch and experiment?

I don't hear anything in this piece to contradict the idea that it was a sketch that Bruckner had lying about that he gave to a pupil of his as an orchestration exercise.



There is quite a story behind this manuscript, which for a while - and maybe the idea persists - was attributed to Mahler!


It begins with the discovery of the MS. in the papers of Rudolf Krzyzanowski, a student of Bruckner and friend of Mahler and Hans RottLeopold Nowak gets involved, the manuscript disappears and then re-appears, and on and on.


Check out the essay by Benjamin Cohrs, one of the musicologists who helped to complete the sketch of the Finale of the Ninth Symphony: the word "strangely" is used quite often!  His 2010 Postscript will leave you with your head shaking!   ???


An excerpt about this Manuscript from c. 1876:

Quote... The soft first theme is, as being typical for Bruckner, repeated in
full  tutti  (b.  43),  leading  into  a  dark  chorale  (b.  59,  pre-shadowing  the  structure  of  the  chorale  theme
from the Finale of the Ninth Symphony
), and even a significant epilogue (b. 73), further to be used in the
development (b. 160). The second theme (b. 87) reflects some ideas of the Third Symphony, and in par-
ticular the famous miserere of the D minor Mass as well. The closing theme is an energetic trumpet call
with a repeated, remarkable minor Ninth, as at the beginning of the Adagio from the Ninth Symphony,
also pre-shadowing the Trumpets at the end of the first movement of this work to be composed some 25
years later. The second part (b. 148) brings two elements from the main theme in variants, similar as in
the first movement of the Ninth
,...



(My emphasis above)


It is fascinating to consider how elements of the Ninth Symphony were already swirling around in Bruckner's mind as musical possibilities decades earlier.

See


https://www.abruckner.com/down/articles/articlesenglish/cohrsprelude/bg_cohrs_bruckner_symphonic_prelude_100817.pdf (https://www.abruckner.com/down/articles/articlesenglish/cohrsprelude/bg_cohrs_bruckner_symphonic_prelude_100817.pdf)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on November 17, 2021, 06:44:16 AM

Cross-posted:


A Bruckner evening with friends.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71QFb90-EcL._AC_SL375_.jpg)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTI0NzEzNS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MzQ2Mzc5NTV9)

1878 and 1888 versions

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODk0MTE4OC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MzIzMTU3NTV9)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/719GmFmmv3L._SS500_.jpg)

The Sado 4th is played with an excellent 'second tier' orchestra who clearly has Bruckner's idiom in their blood. Perfect balances with strong string and brass that blend instead of attempting to dominate proceedings. Pacing is natural, i.e. making room for full expression in the slower episodes, where strings sing and winds comment. Allowing due time for those pastoral episodes to unfold naturally is crucial in this symphony. Sado ends with a militant, bold view of the finale, with assertive brass and timpani. This is an excellent 4th, superbly recorded (live) in the fabled acoustics of the Vienna Musikverein. Warmly recommended.

Jakob Hrusa and the Bamberger Symphoniker have lent their considerable talents to an enterprising musicological journey into the 4th symphony's tortuous genesis. There are basically 2 versions (1874 and 1878-80), plus a variant of the latter (1888) and a bevy of variants, sections of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th movements mostly, but also a full-blown alternate finale. All of these options have been thoroughly researched and documented by Bruckner scholar Benjamin Korstvedt. The set comprises 4 discs, one each for performances of the 1874, 1878-80 and 1888 versions, and one for all the variants (snippets of 1-2 minutes) plus the alternate Finale nicknamed Volkfest (popular fête).

Here too the orchestra dwells on a strong brucknerian tradition honed under the conductorships of Jochum, Keilberth and others. Its playing style is more blended, with forward, luminous winds, richly singing strings and burnished, sonorous but unassertive brass. Performances of all three versions are on the moderate side, allowing the many gesangsperioden full exposure. The first movement may be open to criticism at first as one may feel the playing to be more laid back than bold and brassy as is often the case. What is revealed is how much wind details emerge and how important their cumulative impact on the sound picture alters the conventional view of this movement as a confident, driving, brass-heavy piece. Think of early/mid period Dvorak to get an idea of the soundworld created here, one that harks back to the 1870s instead of the 1890s, to rustic austrian countryside, but also to the organ registrations that are never far in the background in Bruckner's music. The slow movement in the 1878 and 1888 performances are absolutely mesmerizing, by far the most beautiful and mysterious I've heard in many a moon. The revelation though comes in the finales, where Hrusa adopts measured but sharply accented rythms that impart a mysterious, menacing atmosphere. Patient pacing in building the long crescendos pays rich dividends in making climaxes sound organic instead of abruptly pasted on. The coda is splendid, with its insistent Celibidachean accentuation of the march rythms in the violins. A crowning achievement for an unusual view of this familiar work.

The 6th from Poschner on Capriccio disappoints. There is an attempt to paste baroquisms on Bruckner's music that is both ill-advised and unsatisfying. Strings play with a good weigth of tone but very little vibrato. Individual notes are generously peppered with hairpin crescendos throughout, with last notes elongated to make for a more 'meaningful' phrasing. It does have a kind of novelty effect at first but it quickly grows tiresome and emerges as musical tics applied without discernment. The finale sounds more herky-jerky than usual. It is propulsive and powerful, but is prone to sound impulsive and disorganized. It's in the nature of this movement, but a strong guiding thread seems to be missing.

Finally, Ozawa's First in the BP compendium with various conductors. Ozawa has the measure of the score but here what's missing is simply a sense of the concert hall. The sound is forward but disembodied, with no sense of the work being played in a physical space. It sounds very 'digital', making a connection with the playing hard to establish. There's no denying that conductor and orchestra give their all, especially in splendid accounts of the last 2 movements. In the end the two-dimensional soundstage makes this merely good instead of outstanding.

As a footnote, I will mention that I've listened to 2 YT videos from the Hurwitzer, who kills the Hrusa/Korstvedt enterprise and raves orgasmically over Poschner's 6th. My conclusion is that he has utterly failed to understand the sound world and phrasing of the former, and fallen prey to the cheap tricks of the latter. Either way his judgment is wildly off.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 18, 2021, 04:37:06 PM
Quote from: André on November 17, 2021, 06:44:16 AM
Cross-posted:


A Bruckner evening with friends.


(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTI0NzEzNS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MzQ2Mzc5NTV9)

1878 and 1888 versions


As a footnote, I will mention that I've listened to 2 YT videos from the Hurwitzer, who kills the Hrusa/Korstvedt enterprise and raves orgasmically over Poschner's 6th. My conclusion is that he has utterly failed to understand the sound world and phrasing of the former, and fallen prey to the cheap tricks of the latter. Either way his judgment is wildly off.

Many thanks for the nice reviews!  You have interested me in the Bruckner Fourth Symphony collection with the Bamberg Symphony and Jakub Hrusa.

Hurwitz - from the various things I have read in recent years - seemingly wants to be the gadfly in the unguent.  Many are outraged by his trashing of Horenstein's 1959 London Symphony performance of the Mahler Eighth Symphony

In a recent (2019) revisit he called the recording a "CD From Hell" and "Obsolete."
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on November 18, 2021, 09:51:57 PM
Quote from: Cato on November 18, 2021, 04:37:06 PM
Many thanks for the nice reviews!  You have interested me in the Bruckner Fourth Symphony collection with the Bamberg Symphony and Jakub Hrusa.

Hurwitz - from the various things I have read in recent years - seemingly wants to be the gadfly in the unguent.  Many are outraged by his trashing of Horenstein's 1959 London Symphony performance of the Mahler Eighth Symphony

In a recent (2019) revisit he called the recording a "CD From Hell" and "Obsolete."

Hurwitz is probably trying to enhance his income by boosting his profile, and one way to do that is to generate controversy.

I do watch his videos out of boredom while at work, but his influence on my purchasing and preferences has always been exactly zero.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 20, 2021, 02:30:54 AM
Quote from: LKB on November 18, 2021, 09:51:57 PM
Hurwitz is probably trying to enhance his income by boosting his profile, and one way to do that is to generate controversy.

I do watch his videos out of boredom while at work, but his influence on my purchasing and preferences has always been exactly zero.


I would rather trust recommendations from GMG members!   8)


This was recommended via a FaceBook site:

Symphony #2 (Nowak 1877 version).  I did not listen to the entire performance yet, but what I did hear is excellent, and the comments are enthusiastic.

The Flanders Symphony Orchestra:

https://www.youtube.com/v/cSCPFVMHtCs 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 22, 2021, 07:21:20 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 20, 2021, 02:30:54 AM
I would rather trust recommendations from GMG members!   8)


This was recommended via a FaceBook site:

Symphony #2 (Nowak 1877 version).  I did not listen to the entire performance yet, but what I did hear is excellent, and the comments are enthusiastic.

The Flanders Symphony Orchestra:

https://www.youtube.com/v/cSCPFVMHtCs

sounds very good!  unusual to see non-Viennese trumpets playing rotary valves I think.....?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on November 22, 2021, 12:30:08 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 22, 2021, 07:21:20 AM
sounds very good!  unusual to see non-Viennese trumpets playing rotary valves I think.....?

BPO has used rotary trumpets in the past, during the von Karajan era. Not sure about other ensembles, aside from ( presumably ) the Wiener Staatsoper.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 22, 2021, 06:36:27 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 22, 2021, 07:21:20 AM
sounds very good!  unusual to see non-Viennese trumpets playing rotary valves I think.....?

Can you tell from the sound, or are you going by a picture?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 23, 2021, 01:57:56 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 22, 2021, 06:36:27 PM
Can you tell from the sound, or are you going by a picture?

Its from the video.  I'd like to tell you my ears are so forensically atuned to such detail that I could tell the difference.  But sadly I'd be lying!  I'm sure that proper brass players can hear a difference - I'm not sure why rotary valve trumpets are used except because of tradition.  If someone here on the site can explain why they are used and what to listen out for I'd love to know.  I do remember working with a British horn player in Germany who was a top top player who said they wouldn't get a position in a German orchestra because of the different playing style.  Of course, there is a British horn player in the BPO now (and has been for some years) - the very brilliant Sarah Willis - so I imagine she must have adapted her technique (and perhaps changed her instrument?) to fit into the BPO 'sound'.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 23, 2021, 03:08:05 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 22, 2021, 07:21:20 AM

sounds very good!  unusual to see non-Viennese trumpets playing rotary valves I think.....?


Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 22, 2021, 06:36:27 PM

Can you tell from the sound, or are you going by a picture?



Quote from: LKB on November 22, 2021, 12:30:08 PM

BPO has used rotary trumpets in the past, during the von Karajan era. Not sure about other ensembles, aside from ( presumably ) the Wiener Staatsoper.


This article offers a comparison:

https://www.reverbland.com/piston-vs-rotary-valve-trumpets/ (https://www.reverbland.com/piston-vs-rotary-valve-trumpets/)


e.g.


Quote

"...The bore size on a rotary trumpet is much smaller than on a regular piston trumpet. It is narrower all the way through.

The bore size specifically is the diameter of the tubing used to make the trumpet.

A smaller bore size results in a mellow, softer, controlled tone. A larger bore size, by contrast, results in a brighter, aggressive, more pronounced tone.

#3 — Rotary valve trumpets have bigger, broader-flared bells


When you get to the end, rotary trumpets have bigger, broader-flared bells than piston trumpet.

A rotary valve C-trumpet in comparison is about a quarter inch more than a piston valve C-trumpet. Again, this has a huge effect on how the instrument plays, how it feels to the player and what it sounds like.

A larger bell size creates darker tones, while providing a softer, mellow feel. A smaller bell size, by contrast, produces sharper, brighter, brilliant sounds.

#4 — Rotary valve trumpets are more subtle and colorful


One of the major differences in feel, when you play a rotary trumpet is how it blows.

I've always made the comparison that a rotary trumpet feels like a small sports car and a piston trumpet feels like a heavy-duty truck. These two have significantly different feels.

A rotary trumpet is capable of a lot more subtlety, and color than a piston trumpet.

The tonal spectrum of the piston trumpet remains the same throughout it's range whether it's soft or loud. The rotary trumpet changes color quite rapidly, from mellow in piano volume to white-hot molten in fortissimo...

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 23, 2021, 03:45:50 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 23, 2021, 03:08:05 AM

This article offers a comparison:

https://www.reverbland.com/piston-vs-rotary-valve-trumpets/ (https://www.reverbland.com/piston-vs-rotary-valve-trumpets/)


e.g.

That is very interesting indeed - thankyou for your research.  So - to a brass layman such as me - the description of the rotary valve sound makes it closer to what I would expect of a cornet as used in brass bands or quite often in French orchestral scores (RVW uses an additional pair of cornets in his London Symphony - a Ravel legacy perhaps....?)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 23, 2021, 04:47:43 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 23, 2021, 03:45:50 AM

That is very interesting indeed - thankyou for your research.  So - to a brass layman such as me - the description of the rotary valve sound makes it closer to what I would expect of a cornet as used in brass bands or quite often in French orchestral scores (RVW uses an additional pair of cornets in his London Symphony - a Ravel legacy perhaps....?)


That was my impression also!

Given that the Bruckner Second Symphony is rather heavy on the trumpets, the two choices might at least partially affect the overall atmosphere of the work.  I don't believe either choice has any negatives by any means, but the results could be e.g. a beautiful green vs. a beautiful blue.

For those who missed it above, the reference is to this performance:

Quote from: Cato on November 20, 2021, 02:30:54 AM

This was recommended via a FaceBook site:

Symphony #2 (Nowak 1877 version).  I did not listen to the entire performance yet, but what I did hear is excellent, and the comments are enthusiastic.

The Flanders Symphony Orchestra:

https://www.youtube.com/v/cSCPFVMHtCs 


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 23, 2021, 05:05:59 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 23, 2021, 04:47:43 AM
That was my impression also!

Given that the Bruckner Second Symphony is rather heavy on the trumpets, the two choices might at least partially affect the overall atmosphere of the work.  I don't believe either choice has any negatives by any means, but the results could be e.g. a beautiful green vs. a beautiful blue.

For those who missed it above, the reference is to this performance:

Probably deeply inauthentically I do rather love "blazing brass" in Bruckner.  It might not be subtle, it might not be nuanced but goodness me it is exciting and uplifting.  So for me the likes of Chicago are a guilty delight!  I just had a quick check - Dresden use rotary valves as well and I love their Bruckner with Jochum and Sinopoli and I can't say I remember a particularly mellow trumpet sound - I'll have to revisit.....

EDIT:  Just dipped into these 3 versions of Bruckner 2:

(https://csoarchives.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/bruckner-symphonies.jpg)(https://img.cdandlp.com/2018/05/imgL/119166771.jpg)(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODczNzkxMy4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1ODAzMTMxNzF9)

All really fine (Actually the Horst Stein is particularly impressive!) but I'd be lying to say I can spot significantly mellower trumpets... I'll just sit back and enjoy the music

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on November 23, 2021, 07:06:35 AM
Recording, playback quality etc. probably have a rôle here as well. Among the first Bruckner (in 3, 4, 5) I heard was Wand/Cologne. It's not Chicago brass but sticking out nevertheless. I didn't always like this very much, found the music compared to the Beethoven or Brahms I was more used to, incredibly brass heavy.
When a bit later I got the 7th and 8th with Giulini/Vienna this was a far more luxurious, warmer, less brass heavy (although neither damped down) sound. I still tend to prefer a less dominant brass in Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 27, 2021, 05:37:30 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 23, 2021, 07:06:35 AM

Recording, playback quality etc. probably have a rôle here as well. Among the first Bruckner (in 3, 4, 5) I heard was Wand/Cologne. It's not Chicago brass but sticking out nevertheless. I didn't always like this very much, found the music compared to the Beethoven or Brahms I was more used to, incredibly brass heavy.

When a bit later I got the 7th and 8th with Giulini/Vienna this was a far more luxurious, warmer, less brass heavy (although neither damped down) sound. I still tend to prefer a less dominant brass in Bruckner.


Whenever possible, I follow my Bruckner scores (Leopold Nowak, editor), although recently it has rarely been possible, unfortunately.  Anyway, it has always been disconcerting to see the score and not hear all the contributions of all the instruments.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 18, 2021, 06:02:55 AM
Some Bruckner items from recent sources, e.g. this comes from an interview with Sir Roger Norrington:


Quote

"...Even more controversial is Norrington's insistence that orchestral string players play without vibrato, that manner of playing a note with a tremor that adds expressive warmth. "It took me a long time to dare to ask an orchestra to play without vibrato, I think it was 2000," says Norrington. "But whenever I do, players and audiences are astonished at how beautiful and expressive it sounds."

Norrington has even used this method with that arch-romantic composer Anton Bruckner, who he says is constantly misunderstood. "We think of Bruckner as always on his knees in church, but in fact he was very worldly. He liked the ladies, and he liked to have a drink. In one of his symphonies, he combines a church chorale and a polka, but most conductors find that an outrageous idea, and take the music so slow you can't hear it as a polka."


I would assume he is referring to the Third Symphony.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/classical-music/looking-forward-different-life-conductor-roger-norrington-last/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/classical-music/looking-forward-different-life-conductor-roger-norrington-last/)



See also this YouTube performance and the discussion in the comments: one person says that he considers "the 1874 and the 1878/80 versions almost as two different symphonies based on similar themes."


https://www.youtube.com/v/fyN0ObSYNpE&t=979s


A talk between musicologist Benjamin Korstvedt and conductor Warren Cohen on a newly discovered score of the Fourth Symphony:


https://www.youtube.com/v/S0pqacDjmdQ



And Gerd Schaller - who apparently wants to be the heir to Eugen Jochum - has a website for his Bruckner 2024 Project:


Quote

"...Anton Bruckner created true cathedrals of sound with his wonderfully emotional but at the same time highly complex music. But like no other composer, he repeatedly fine-tuned nearly all of his works, especially the symphonies, constantly striving for the ideal form and making changes.

Therefore, there are different variants or versions of his symphonies existing, which Gerd Schaller and his orchestra, the Philharmonie Festiva, now are recording in their own artistic handwriting within the framework of BRUCKNER2024.

The very possibility of being able to compare these different versions directly, interpreted by one and the same orchestra and conductor is intended to help listeners to even better understand the fascinating and multifaceted musical personality of Anton Bruckner.

The basis for this is Gerd Schaller's internationally acclaimed Bruckner cycle, in which several symphonies are already available in different versions on CD, but also the first oratorical and organ works have been published. The recordings of the still missing variants of the symphonies and the other works will be realised in the coming years and will appear on the CD label Profil Günter Hänssler.

The editions used take into account the current state of musicology. However, this is not enough for Gerd Schaller. And so it is a major concern of his not to neglect the important findings of previous generations of editors. In some cases, he even includes the first printed editions of Bruckner's works, which also convey information that is important in terms of performance history and is worthy of tradition. As world premiere recordings, he has also recorded a number of intermediate versions in the editions of William Carragan. Most important for Gerd Schaller, however, is one's own critical research and dealing with the respective autograph. This led to the fact that he even created his own editions of several versions. Gerd Schaller would like to present the symphonies in editions that are not only based on knowledge that is currently favored and may already be outdated in a few years. Rather, he strives for a timeless overall view of all symphonies that are based on musicology and that are as timeless as possible. important performance-historical aspects are also taken into account....


;)   0:)

See:

https://www.bruckner2024.com/en/ (https://www.bruckner2024.com/en/)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 18, 2021, 07:13:03 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 18, 2021, 06:02:55 AM

And Gerd Schaller - who apparently wants to be the heir to Eugen Jochum - has a website for his Bruckner 2024 Project:

;)   0:)

See:

https://www.bruckner2024.com/en/ (https://www.bruckner2024.com/en/)
"The editions used take into account the current state of musicology. However, this is not enough for Gerd Schaller. And so it is a major concern of his not to neglect the important findings of previous generations of editors. In some cases, he even includes the first printed editions of Bruckner's works, which also convey information that is important in terms of performance history and is worthy of tradition. As world premiere recordings, he has also recorded a number of intermediate versions in the editions of William Carragan. Most important for Gerd Schaller, however, is one's own critical research and dealing with the respective autograph. This led to the fact that he even created his own editions of several versions. Gerd Schaller would like to present the symphonies in editions that are not only based on knowledge that is currently favored and may already be outdated in a few years. Rather, he strives for a timeless overall view of all symphonies that are based on musicology and that are as timeless as possible. important performance-historical aspects are also taken into account...."

So just to be sure I understand Schaller's goal - HIS interpretations ALONE will be the "timeless" versions superceding all previous performances and never needing to be replaced..... ever.  Good to know, I'll tick Bruckner off the list..........
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 18, 2021, 06:16:43 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 18, 2021, 07:13:03 AM

"The editions used take into account the current state of musicology. However, this is not enough for Gerd Schaller. And so it is a major concern of his not to neglect the important findings of previous generations of editors. In some cases, he even includes the first printed editions of Bruckner's works, which also convey information that is important in terms of performance history and is worthy of tradition. As world premiere recordings, he has also recorded a number of intermediate versions in the editions of William Carragan. Most important for Gerd Schaller, however, is one's own critical research and dealing with the respective autograph. This led to the fact that he even created his own editions of several versions. Gerd Schaller would like to present the symphonies in editions that are not only based on knowledge that is currently favored and may already be outdated in a few years. Rather, he strives for a timeless overall view of all symphonies that are based on musicology and that are as timeless as possible. important performance-historical aspects are also taken into account...."

So just to be sure I understand Schaller's goal - HIS interpretations ALONE will be the "timeless" versions superceding all previous performances and never needing to be replaced..... ever.  Good to know, I'll tick Bruckner off the list..........



Will somebody please find Gerd Schaller's watch?!   ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 19, 2021, 10:39:29 AM
Advertised as being available on January 7th: I thought it might be of interest not only because of Karl Boehm, but also due to the presence of...

Paul Hindemith's Concerto for Woodwinds, Harp and Orchestra.



Quote

In spite of his many recordings for Deutsche Grammophon and London/Decca, this recording of the Bruckner 7th has never been previously released. Audite went into the archives of the Swiss radio to retrieve this Lucerne Festival concert from September of 1964. The CD also includes a performance of Paul Hindemith's Concerto for Woodwinds, Harp and Orchestra.



See:



https://www.abruckner.com/store/abrucknercomexclus/current-releases-cds--dvds--blu-ray--lps/symphony-no-7-karl-boehm--lucerne-festival-orchest/ (https://www.abruckner.com/store/abrucknercomexclus/current-releases-cds--dvds--blu-ray--lps/symphony-no-7-karl-boehm--lucerne-festival-orchest/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 21, 2021, 02:52:03 AM
Interesting 2022 concerts noticed recently:


Berg's Violin Concerto paired with the Bruckner Seventh Symphony.



https://www.musikverein.at/konzert/eventid/45507 (https://www.musikverein.at/konzert/eventid/45507)



Schoenberg's Piano Concerto paired with the Bruckner Ninth Symphony.



https://www.clevelandorchestra.com/attend/concerts-and-events/2122/severance/wk-11-Mitsuko-Uchida-Returns/


It will be interesting to see whether this becomes a trend.  Probably just a coincidence: Die Neue Wiener Schule und Bruckner!


I will again direct people to Dika Newlin's book:


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/516hraR1W5L._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)


https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Mahler-Schoenberg-Dika-Newlin/dp/1406756237 (https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Mahler-Schoenberg-Dika-Newlin/dp/1406756237)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 22, 2021, 05:35:13 AM
Here is the thesis of Dika Newlin's book mentioned above:



(From the Preface)

Quote



The idea of this book originally came to me during my years of
study with Arnold Schoenberg in Los Angeles (1938-1941).

At that time I was first introduced to the most "radical" works of Schoenberg,
works virtually unknown in this country so far as public performances
are concerned. I felt the need of a historical background which would
explain the origins of the new style.

It was this which brought me to a study of the works of Mahler and Bruckner; for Schoenberg's oft-
expressed indebtedness to Mahler plainly indicated that the roots of Schoenberg's style might be found in Mahler's scores (however different
Mahler's music might be in texture from Schoenberg's), and the relationship between Mahler and Bruckner seemed well established.

Thence, it was but a step to the conclusion that Schoenberg is not only the heir of Bruckner and Mahler but also the heir of the great Viennese
classical tradition, which they transmitted to him. It is this conclusion which I have tried to prove in the following pages; it has been my desire to portray Schoenberg's works as the culmination of several centuries of historical development, rather than as the products of a wilful iconoclasm. To this end, I have attempted to place Schoenberg in the Viennese cultural scene by analyzing, not only the musical background, but also the literary, artistic, and political background of his generation a task which I have likewise performed for the period of Bruckner and of Mahler.



A later excerpt on Bruckner: looking at stylistic bonds among all 9 symphonies, she observes the opening bar of Symphony #1.

Quote



"...we shall first give our attention to that opening measure in which, apparently, nothing happens. For it is this type of beginning which is to become one of the most characteristic earmarks of Bruckner's style.

Looking at the openings of the nine symphonies, we invariably find a harmonically static beginning characterized by a tremolo or ostinato figure over which the theme unfolds itself.
Obviously, such a beginning is a far cry from the succinct opening of the classical symphony in medias res. The difference calls for some kind of explanation. Many German writers on Bruckner have followed the lead of August Halm in providing a mystical-philosophical elucidation of the phenomenon. Halm writes:

'Before the motive, "that which moves," originates, we experience something like a moment before time, something almost timeless; there, time and events
themselves seem to be doled out to us gradually.  For the first time in Bruckner we feel completely the holiness of the fundamental.  We think we are inhaling something like the breath of creation, when we are enveloped in the first tones of his Seventh, Ninth, or Fourth Symphonies.

We feel it; it is not just a piece of music which begins here, but music itself commences. The classic composers are able only to lead us into the specific piece of musicof the moment; in rare instances, they give us at least a hint of a real musical  beginning.

They themselves felt this lack from time to time, and then tried to make up for it by means of an introduction.'


(Newlin continues later...)

"...We must avoid confusing the technique employed in the opening bars of these symphonies with that used in the introduction of the
classical symphony.

Bruckner himself has given us the clearest indication that they are different when, after the fifty-bar slow introduction to the first movement of the Fifth Symphony (the only symphony in which he uses such an introduction), he still deems it necessary to precede his main theme with four bars of his customary tremolo.

After such a long introduction, what purpose does the tremolo serve?

Alfred Orel...has made an interesting suggestion...

... he concludes that Bruckner's purpose in using the tremolo or ostinato type of accompaniment so consistently may have been to set off the emphatic rhythm of the main theme against a background of more neutral tone, so that the hearer's attention would be concentrated on that one theme. Orel's theory has much to recommend it..."



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 23, 2021, 05:46:37 AM
Perhaps this will be of interest: some religious music for the Christmas season was sent to me.

The Mass #3 in a televised performance with Herbert Blomstedt conducting.




https://www.youtube.com/v/bTdng8p5GLM
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 28, 2021, 11:02:30 AM
I discovered the existence of a "Bruckner Orchestra of Nagoya, Japan."

Founded c. 30 years ago, they have performed and recorded all Eleven Symphonies, some more than once.


Here is the First Movement of the Fourth Symphony:


https://www.youtube.com/v/x_KW9Kgiuik
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Choral Work in German
Post by: Cato on January 15, 2022, 05:40:25 AM
I have never heard of this work!


I am glad that it was sent to me:


https://www.youtube.com/v/zs-Iz9U2UbQ


Schatten sind des Lebens Güter,
Schatten seiner Freuden Schar,
Schatten Worte, Wünsche, Taten;
Die Gedanken nur sind wahr.

Und die Liebe, die du fühlest,
Und das Gute, das du tust,
Und kein Wachen als im Schlafe,
Wenn du einst im Grabe ruhst.
   

Shadows are the goods of life,
Shadows its joys,
Shadows words, wishes, acts;
Thoughts alone are true.

And the love that you feel,
And the good that you do,
And awakening only in the sleep
When you once rest in the grave.




Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on January 15, 2022, 06:27:13 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 23, 2021, 05:46:37 AM
Perhaps this will be of interest: some religious music for the Christmas season was sent to me.

The Mass #3 in a televised performance with Herbert Blomstedt conducting.




https://www.youtube.com/v/bTdng8p5GLM

I played this work when l was principal oboe in the university orchestra (  back when dinosaurs walked the Earth... ). I must say that the memories aren't especially positive, as there are no memorable oboe solos and l found the mass only tolerable to listen to.

But my tastes then were quote parochial, and l was a snob to boot. If a composition had nothing good for the oboe, it was obviously second-rate.  ::)

I'll give this a listen. Now that a few eons have passed and I'm something like an adult, perhaps the work will have some value for me.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 15, 2022, 03:02:46 PM
Quote from: LKB on January 15, 2022, 06:27:13 AM
I played this work when l was principal oboe in the university orchestra (  back when dinosaurs walked the Earth... ). I must say that the memories aren't especially positive, as there are no memorable oboe solos and l found the mass only tolerable to listen to.

But my tastes then were quote parochial, and l was a snob to boot. If a composition had nothing good for the oboe, it was obviously second-rate.  ::)

I'll give this a listen. Now that a few eons have passed and I'm something like an adult, perhaps the work will have some value for me.

I am revisiting works and composers from 50-60 years ago and hearing things I do not recall hearing, or having reactions to the music which I had never experienced!

An example is the Mendelssohn Symphony #3 - especially in the performance with Harnoncourt and the Chamber Orchestra of Europe: By gum, the man thinks the symphony is by Bruckner!

https://www.youtube.com/v/vh6vlsEluHM

Another example is this performance of another choral work by Bruckner which I recently discovered:

(with Alphorns!)

https://www.youtube.com/v/TKTbEmI0wok

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 16, 2022, 08:09:54 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 15, 2022, 03:02:46 PM
Another example is this performance of another choral work by Bruckner which I recently discovered:

(with Alphorns!)

Gorgeous piece! Thanks for posting this.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 16, 2022, 02:19:22 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 16, 2022, 08:09:54 AM
Gorgeous piece! Thanks for posting this.

Sarge


You are quite welcome!

The secular choral pieces of Bruckner are not to be missed!

Here: Troesterin Musik ( Music, The Comforter)

https://www.youtube.com/v/e-VPg5tNX3U
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 16, 2022, 11:39:26 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 16, 2022, 08:09:54 AM
Gorgeous piece! Thanks for posting this.

Sarge

It is a glorious piece indeed!  Here's another YouTube version - very authentically Viennese and I love the church setting.  For what its worth - Bruckner wrote for Horns imitating alphorns not actual alphorns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPT6c12DWlU
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 17, 2022, 05:56:57 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 16, 2022, 11:39:26 PM
It is a glorious piece indeed!  Here's another YouTube version - very authentically Viennese and I love the church setting.  For what its worth - Bruckner wrote for Horns imitating alphorns not actual alphorns

Okay!  These scores (i.e. scores for the secular choral works) are not in my possession, so I depended on the YouTube channel.

Still, using real Alphorns would be awesome!   8)

And speaking of other instruments...here is another version of Troesterin by The Bruckner Trombone Quartet (a Dutch group out of Rotterdam (I think)



https://www.youtube.com/v/fQ-8UwwcUG0&t=24s



See also the group's website:

https://sebastiaankemner.com/articles/bruckner-quartet (https://sebastiaankemner.com/articles/bruckner-quartet)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 17, 2022, 11:44:35 AM
Superbly evocative indeed. There's only a couple of recordings and none are available easily, it seems.  >:(
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: 1873 Symphony III
Post by: Cato on January 19, 2022, 06:17:12 AM
Thanks to the discussion on What Are You Listening To?, I found that YouTube has this performance of the 1873 version of the Third Symphony: Georg Tintner on NAXOS.

When I bought this CD some years ago, I found it a revelation!


https://www.youtube.com/v/CI7HOnfFWFU&list=OLAK5uy_mhj0Q94TGWIHanOYvwv_upBRAMJBJWlIE
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: 1873 Symphony III
Post by: foxandpeng on January 19, 2022, 11:05:35 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 19, 2022, 06:17:12 AM
Thanks to the discussion on What Are You Listening To?, I found that YouTube has this performance of the 1873 version of the Third Symphony: Georg Tintner on NAXOS.

When I bought this CD some years ago, I found it a revelation!


https://www.youtube.com/v/CI7HOnfFWFU&list=OLAK5uy_mhj0Q94TGWIHanOYvwv_upBRAMJBJWlIE

The Tintner cycle was the first I ever owned, and I confess that through familiarity and regular listening then, these are what I gravitated toward as being 'real' Bruckner. I understand a little more now than I did back then, but they are still the recordings I enjoy most.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: 1873 Symphony III
Post by: Cato on January 21, 2022, 05:49:50 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on January 19, 2022, 11:05:35 AM
The Tintner cycle was the first I ever owned, and I confess that through familiarity and regular listening then, these are what I gravitated toward as being 'real' Bruckner. I understand a little more now than I did back then, but they are still the recordings I enjoy most.

I also have Tintner's Bruckner Second Symphony, which uses the 1872 original version: it is excellent!  Some might find it more powerful than the revised version.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: 1873 Symphony III
Post by: foxandpeng on January 21, 2022, 06:15:48 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 21, 2022, 05:49:50 AM
I also have Tintner's Bruckner Second Symphony, which uses the 1872 original version: it is excellent!  Some might find it more powerful than the revised version.

My bias is always toward the Tintner :), although the Inbal and Chailly are really good! It's been such a long time since I have spent any time with Bruckner and I had frankly forgotten just how great the symphonies are. I had also forgotten just how many YouTube rips and unidentified downloads I have from various places, including the Bruckner website. Ha. So much for making listening plans at the start of the year.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 21, 2022, 09:51:03 AM
Following an earlier thread I rooted around on the free download page of John Berky's extraordinarily comprehensive site abruckner.com.

https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/

These downloads are quite often of passing interest - little known orchestra/conductors etc.  But scrolling down the "back catalogue" I spotted the series of recordings Gerd Albrecht made with the Czech PO for Exton.  These can be downloaded for free in FLAC format so sonically very good.  Albrecht is a fine Bruckner conductor and the Czech PO make just the right old-fashioned Central European warm sound.  Its really rather glorious and well recorded too.  Enjoyed listening to No.8 this afternoon very much......
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 21, 2022, 10:12:47 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 21, 2022, 09:51:03 AM
Following an earlier thread I rooted around on the free download page of John Berky's extraordinarily comprehensive site abruckner.com.

https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/

These downloads are quite often of passing interest - little known orchestra/conductors etc.  But scrolling down the "back catalogue" I spotted the series of recordings Gerd Albrecht made with the Czech PO for Exton.  These can be downloaded for free in FLAC format so sonically very good.  Albrecht is a fine Bruckner conductor and the Czech PO make just the right old-fashioned Central European warm sound.  Its really rather glorious and well recorded too.  Enjoyed listening to No.8 this afternoon very much......

If it's still available, try to locate the 8th under Jochum in Bamberg. A 1982 live performance of tremendous power. It was offered a few years back (5 or 6?), so scroll down a few years...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Linz on January 21, 2022, 10:18:20 AM
Yes Jochums Bamberg 8 is still there and he has added Flac links to it with the organ works in mp3
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 21, 2022, 11:03:26 AM
Quote from: Linz on January 21, 2022, 10:18:20 AM
Yes Jochums Bamberg 8 is still there and he has added Flac links to it with the organ works in mp3

Go for it. Simply glorious, easily the best B8 Jochum did (IMHO of course  ;D)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 21, 2022, 01:08:28 PM
Quote from: André on January 21, 2022, 10:12:47 AM

If it's still available, try to locate the 8th under Jochum in Bamberg. A 1982 live performance of tremendous power. It was offered a few years back (5 or 6?), so scroll down a few years...



Quote from: Linz on January 21, 2022, 10:18:20 AM

Yes Jochums Bamberg 8 is still there and he has added Flac links to it with the organ works in mp3


Quote from: André on January 21, 2022, 11:03:26 AM


Go for it. Simply glorious, easily the best B8 Jochum did (IMHO of course  ;D)




Incredible coincidence!  This performance popped up yesterday, while I was searching for something else!

I assume this is the same performance:

https://www.youtube.com/v/adHIid54n38


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 21, 2022, 01:32:51 PM
I can't access your link, Leo (just a big blank). There are 2 Bamberg 8ths by Jochum in 1982: June 12 from St-Florian Abbey (coupled with the organ works), and September 15, live from NHK Hall, Tokyo. Both are formidable, but I like the slightly tauter Tokyo performance slightly more. Obviously sonics will be a consideration (the St-Florian reverb a factor). I haven't listened to them in a few years, so I've pulled them out for listening and I'm open to revise my order of preference  ;D.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ritter on January 21, 2022, 01:40:11 PM
Cato's link must be from the NHK Hall, André (unless they were using Japanese characters in Linz, and the abbey has been refurbished by a brutalist architect   ;D).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Linz on January 21, 2022, 03:13:37 PM
The one from Berkies site is the St Florian recordinng  and the Altus recording is the NHK Hall recording
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 21, 2022, 05:15:12 PM
Quote from: Linz on January 21, 2022, 03:13:37 PM

The one from Berkies site is the St Florian recording  and the Altus recording is the NHK Hall recording



Many thanks for the clarification!  The YouTube "channel" indicates it is the Japanese performance from September 1982.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 22, 2022, 12:13:16 AM
Quote from: André on January 21, 2022, 11:03:26 AM


Go for it. Simply glorious, easily the best B8 Jochum did (IMHO of course  ;D)

Great tip - thankyou!  Jochum last/live No.5 with the Concertgebouw is my favourite version of that symphony bar none - extraordinary sense of journey and final arrival
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 22, 2022, 03:41:52 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 22, 2022, 12:13:16 AM
Great tip - thankyou!  Jochum last/live No.5 with the Concertgebouw is my favourite version of that symphony bar none - extraordinary sense of journey and final arrival

Amen to that!

This Bruckner Trombone Quartet is something else!  A Dutch group, they are impressive!


https://www.youtube.com/v/Oj6rmmOek1M

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 22, 2022, 05:56:48 AM
Quote from: André on January 21, 2022, 01:32:51 PM
I can't access your link, Leo (just a big blank). There are 2 Bamberg 8ths by Jochum in 1982: June 12 from St-Florian Abbey (coupled with the organ works), and September 15, live from NHK Hall, Tokyo. Both are formidable, but I like the slightly tauter Tokyo performance slightly more. Obviously sonics will be a consideration (the St-Florian reverb a factor). I haven't listened to them in a few years, so I've pulled them out for listening and I'm open to revise my order of preference  ;D.

I've been listening to the St. Florian/Jochum/Bamberg No.8 this morning.  I do like a lot Jochum's emotional volatility in Bruckner - which I know some folk don't!  The St. Florian acoustic is not excessive at all and the detail in the recording is very good.  I'm not sure it would go to the very top of my list of favourites for No.8 though.  The sound of the Bamberg players is obviously good but the brass is a bit "plain" for my preference - the climactic passages don't ring out as I enjoy most.  Interesting "perils of live performance" moment in the 1st movement when it sounds as if a harp string breaks!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 22, 2022, 11:43:47 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 22, 2022, 05:56:48 AM
I've been listening to the St. Florian/Jochum/Bamberg No.8 this morning.  I do like a lot Jochum's emotional volatility in Bruckner - which I know some folk don't!  The St. Florian acoustic is not excessive at all and the detail in the recording is very good.  I'm not sure it would go to the very top of my list of favourites for No.8 though.  The sound of the Bamberg players is obviously good but the brass is a bit "plain" for my preference - the climactic passages don't ring out as I enjoy most.  Interesting "perils of live performance" moment in the 1st movement when it sounds as if a harp string breaks!

The harp is silent in the first movement.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on January 22, 2022, 02:15:21 PM
Quote from: André on January 22, 2022, 11:43:47 AM
The harp is silent in the first movement.

True, but that doesn't preclude a string breaking.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 22, 2022, 02:43:21 PM
Quote from: André on January 22, 2022, 11:43:47 AM
The harp is silent in the first movement.

Of course but when a harp string's gotta go, its gotta go!  Its a very distinctive sound - quite dry pop as it snaps back against the soundboard - 5' 33" into the 1st movement........
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 22, 2022, 04:25:20 PM
I believe you if you say so. All I hear is a quick 'tack' sound in the left channel.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: foxandpeng on January 24, 2022, 05:42:56 AM
Anton Bruckner
Symphony 5
Georg Tintner
RSNO


First run at a couple of days of #5. Any loved recs of relatively modern recordings appreciated. I make no apology for my advocacy of Tintner, and I also want to continue to hear Chailly and Inbal, but keen to hear your thoughts.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on January 24, 2022, 07:39:55 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on January 24, 2022, 05:42:56 AM
Anton Bruckner
Symphony 5
Georg Tintner
RSNO


First run at a couple of days of #5. Any loved recs of relatively modern recordings appreciated. I make no apology for my advocacy of Tintner, and I also want to continue to hear Chailly and Inbal, but keen to hear your thoughts.

For the 5th, I am quite partial to Jochum (either Staatskapelle Dresden or Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks).

For another take that I really appreciate, try Celibidache and Munich (I find his approach hit and miss with Bruckner, but I think his 5th is one of the successful ones)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on January 24, 2022, 11:07:24 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on January 24, 2022, 05:42:56 AM
Anton Bruckner
Symphony 5
Georg Tintner
RSNO


First run at a couple of days of #5. Any loved recs of relatively modern recordings appreciated. I make no apology for my advocacy of Tintner, and I also want to continue to hear Chailly and Inbal, but keen to hear your thoughts.

Haitink is available in a few incarnations, my favorite being the studio recording with the VPO he made for Philips back in the '80's. Excellent sound and performance.

My imprint for B5 was von Karajan's, and I'm still fond of it. DG somehow found such hall resonance in the Philharmonie that it actually sound's good, probably the best analog recording I've heard from that venue. HvK had the measure of the work and l can't honestly point out any interpretive weaknesses, though some rather prominent critics disagree.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: foxandpeng on January 24, 2022, 03:06:06 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on January 24, 2022, 07:39:55 AM
For the 5th, I am quite partial to Jochum (either Staatskapelle Dresden or Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks).

For another take that I really appreciate, try Celibidache and Munich (I find his approach hit and miss with Bruckner, but I think his 5th is one of the successful ones)

Quote from: LKB on January 24, 2022, 11:07:24 AM
Haitink is available in a few incarnations, my favorite being the studio recording with the VPO he made for Philips back in the '80's. Excellent sound and performance.

My imprint for B5 was von Karajan's, and I'm still fond of it. DG somehow found such hall resonance in the Philharmonie that it actually sound's good, probably the best analog recording I've heard from that venue. HvK had the measure of the work and l can't honestly point out any interpretive weaknesses, though some rather prominent critics disagree.

Thank you both!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 27, 2022, 06:43:32 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on January 24, 2022, 07:39:55 AM


For the 5th, I am quite partial to Jochum (either Staatskapelle Dresden or Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks).



There is also the famous Concertgebouw performance from the 1980's: one of Saint  0:)   Eugen Jochum's    8)  last concerts.



https://www.youtube.com/v/eFFnjWW8jwo
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on January 27, 2022, 06:51:47 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on January 24, 2022, 05:42:56 AM
Anton Bruckner
Symphony 5
Georg Tintner
RSNO


First run at a couple of days of #5. Any loved recs of relatively modern recordings appreciated. I make no apology for my advocacy of Tintner, and I also want to continue to hear Chailly and Inbal, but keen to hear your thoughts.

I dig (among others) Haitink with the Bavarian Radio Symphony
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: foxandpeng on January 27, 2022, 11:21:02 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 27, 2022, 06:51:47 AM
I dig (among others) Haitink with the Bavarian Radio Symphony

Thanks, Karl. This will probably be this evening's final run at #5 before I move on to #6. I'll listen with interest (once I've heard the new DSCH SQ release from Novus Qt)!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on January 27, 2022, 05:06:12 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on January 27, 2022, 11:21:02 AM
Thanks, Karl. This will probably be this evening's final run at #5 before I move on to #6. I'll listen with interest (once I've heard the new DSCH SQ release from Novus Qt)!

It's one of the truly great performances of the 5th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 12, 2022, 10:19:05 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on January 24, 2022, 05:42:56 AM
Any loved recs of relatively modern recordings appreciated.

Somewhat to my surprise, I really like the Ormandy version, which I have on an old Columbia LP issue. Rather swift and dramatic performance (not a stereotypical Brucknerian "cathedral in sound").
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Linz on March 12, 2022, 11:39:37 AM
The Ormandy recording of the 5th turned me right off the fifth for quite a while
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 12, 2022, 01:05:59 PM
Quote from: Linz on March 12, 2022, 11:39:37 AM
The Ormandy recording of the 5th turned me right off the fifth for quite a while

Why?

For what it's worth, Solti/CSO was my intro to the 5th. As you might expect, it should be renamed Concerto for Brass Band & Orchestra, but it didn't put me off the piece itself.

Quote from: ultralinear on March 12, 2022, 07:09:14 AM
Over on BBC Radio 3 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0003rpg) Tom Service spends quite an interesting half-hour debunking some of the more pernicious (and persistent) myths surrounding Bruckner's music.

Thanks for posting that - very enjoyable.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 12, 2022, 03:24:22 PM
Ormandy's Bruckner is not intrinsically bad, but the constant legato, rather quick tempi and reluctance to observe real pauses make the music sound...oily. The fifth is probably Bruckner's most 'blocky' structure. Its execution should emphasize big dynamic contrasts, raspy winds/brass tones and respect the silences between paragraphs. In that respect the exact opposite of Ormandy's 5th is the Klemperer version(s).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 13, 2022, 02:11:48 PM
Quote from: André on March 12, 2022, 03:24:22 PM
Ormandy's Bruckner is not intrinsically bad, but the constant legato, rather quick tempi and reluctance to observe real pauses make the music sound...oily. The fifth is probably Bruckner's most 'blocky' structure. Its execution should emphasize big dynamic contrasts, raspy winds/brass tones and respect the silences between paragraphs. In that respect the exact opposite of Ormandy's 5th is the Klemperer version(s).

Quote from: Linz on March 12, 2022, 11:39:37 AM
The Ormandy recording of the 5th turned me right off the fifth for quite a while

Thanks for the reviews!  I will see if I can find it.  Ormandy usually did so well with things like the Mahler Second Symphony and Rachmaninov.

Quote from: ultralinear on March 12, 2022, 07:09:14 AM

Over on BBC Radio 3 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0003rpg) Tom Service spends quite an interesting half-hour debunking some of the more pernicious (and persistent) myths surrounding Bruckner's music.

Not sure how accessible this is to users outside the UK, but I think it should be possible - it might be necessary to set up a (free) account perhaps. :-\


Many thanks for the link!

And allow me to offer this as Lenten Music:

https://www.youtube.com/v/ov-OAmpcRfw
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 13, 2022, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 13, 2022, 02:11:48 PM
Thanks for the reviews!  I will see if I can find it.  Ormandy usually did so well with things like the Mahler Second Symphony and Rachmaninov.

Many thanks for the link!

And allow me to offer this as Lenten Music:

https://www.youtube.com/v/ov-OAmpcRfw

Ormandy was a great conductor, one of the giants of the podium. Nobody's perfect.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Leo K. on March 14, 2022, 10:03:32 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 27, 2022, 06:51:47 AM
I dig (among others) Haitink with the Bavarian Radio Symphony

Me too this is an amazing sounding performance. Aces!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on March 14, 2022, 11:50:26 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 27, 2022, 06:51:47 AM
I dig (among others) Haitink with the Bavarian Radio Symphony

I'm unfamiliar with that one, but Haitink is one of my main Bruckner interpreters. I'll check it out when l get home.  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 14, 2022, 12:01:45 PM
It's an excellent version, more volatile than his earlier recording from Amsterdam, if without the latter orchestra's tightness of ensemble and richly burnished brass sound.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on March 14, 2022, 12:08:08 PM
How does it compare with his digital Philips recording with the VPO?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 14, 2022, 01:16:18 PM
Quote from: André on March 14, 2022, 12:01:45 PM
It's an excellent version, more volatile than his earlier recording from Amsterdam, if without the latter orchestra's tightness of ensemble and richly burnished brass sound.

Edit: sorry for the confusion, I thought Karl's post referred to the 1st symphony, which Haitink also recorded with the BRSO  :P

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on March 14, 2022, 01:20:13 PM
Quote from: LKB on March 14, 2022, 12:08:08 PM
How does it compare with his digital Philips recording with the VPO?

Assuming you refer to the 5th symphony, the answer is: go for the BRSO version. The VP recording on Philips is very good, but too plush for my taste. The BR orchestra and the engineers produce a fantastic sonic picture and Haitink has unlocked the gates of Walhalla. The finale (and particularly the coda) is jaw-dropping.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on March 14, 2022, 02:11:20 PM
Quote from: André on March 14, 2022, 01:20:13 PM
Assuming you refer to the 5th symphony, the answer is: go for the BRSO version. The VP recording on Philips is very good, but too plush for my taste. The BR orchestra and the engineers produce a fantastic sonic picture and Haitink has unlocked the gates of Walhalla. The finale (and particularly the coda) is jaw-dropping.

Just got home, I'll check it out, thx Andre.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 14, 2022, 09:30:18 AM
From Capriccio Records:

https://www.youtube.com/v/rq9GFasC334
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 15, 2022, 05:17:46 PM
This recording of Bruckner's Sixth Symphony came back to my attention today: those TELARC recordings - even without works by Bruckner  8) -  from the good ol' days were usually excellent!

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41ZnCiH3JOL.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on May 16, 2022, 01:22:32 AM
I listened to 4 recording of Bruckner's 5th, Schuricht, Klemperer, Skrowaczewski, Harnoncourt. I had probably listened only once to the last one when I got it and similarly for the Schuricht (I had hunted down for a while as it was the relatively rare Vienna live recording). The Schuricht is good in decent mono sound but not quite as intense as I expected from such a "legendary" recording. Both Klemperer and Skro are comparably "cool". I sometimes tend to find the brass overwhelming in Bruckner but Skro almost errs in the opposite direction with rather "discreet", well integrated brass. The outbursts in the intro to the first mvmt are not explosive enoug, I was a bit disappointed, had had this in better recollection.
Klemp's is not as good as his 4th and 6th, I think, a bit too slow and stately but still impressive.
I was very impressed by Harnoncourt's. Not sure if I ever listened properly to this. This was by some margin the most convincing and dramatic of them (even before Schuricht). NH seems also the only one to "get" the Austrian rustic touch in some passages of the (very fast) scherzo and also in subsidiary themes in the other movements. It's the best post-Beethoven Harnoncourt I remember hearing (admittedly, I have not heard all)
I have to re-listen to Harnoncourt's Bruckner 4 and 9 (don't have his 3 and 7).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on May 16, 2022, 06:27:58 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 16, 2022, 01:22:32 AM
I sometimes tend to find the brass overwhelming in Bruckner

Especially in the 5th where I feel that it can veer towards bombastic.

On the Skrowacezski is this with Saarbrucken or the LPO?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 16, 2022, 06:14:51 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 16, 2022, 01:22:32 AM

I was very impressed by Harnoncourt's. Not sure if I ever listened properly to this. This was by some margin the most convincing and dramatic of them (even before Schuricht). NH seems also the only one to "get" the Austrian rustic touch in some passages of the (very fast) scherzo and also in subsidiary themes in the other movements. It's the best post-Beethoven Harnoncourt I remember hearing (admittedly, I have not heard all)

I have to re-listen to Harnoncourt's Bruckner 4 and 9 (don't have his 3 and 7).


Thanks for the comments!

I once listened to a fairly lively Klemperer performance of the opening minutes of the Fifth Symphony, but wondered that the key seemed higher than it should have been.

Ahh, my little sister had changed the record player's speed to 45 RPM!   0:)
 
After that, things were not so brisk after all!  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on May 16, 2022, 11:04:35 PM
Quote from: DavidW on May 16, 2022, 06:27:58 AM
Especially in the 5th where I feel that it can veer towards bombastic.

On the Skrowacezski is this with Saarbrucken or the LPO?
Saarbrücken. The 5th IS bombastic, especially in the finale and it is supposed to be. ;) That's why I want some brass here, while I prefer it more integrated in the 6th or 7th.
The introduction to the first movement is also unique in Bruckner. My first recording was the 1970s Wand/WDR that is rather rough and violent in the brass.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 17, 2022, 02:58:43 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 16, 2022, 11:04:35 PM

Saarbrücken. The 5th IS bombastic, especially in the finale and it is supposed to be. ;) That's why I want some brass here,


Amen!


Somewhere, many years ago, I read that there was a conductor (one of the Schalk brothers?) who hired 5 or 6 brass players, who were to be reserved for the last minutes of the Finale!

A good trick!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 17, 2022, 01:02:03 PM
Talking of bombast, I was listening to a talk on Mahler's 7th on BBC Radio 3 c.1981 and the presenter said in a very posh British voice: 'Critics cannot decide whether the finale of Mahler's 7th is bombastic, or a parody of bombast.' I nearly fell off my chair laughing.

(NB, it's a parody of bombast).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 17, 2022, 11:27:28 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 17, 2022, 02:58:43 AM
Amen!


Somewhere, many years ago, I read that there was a conductor (one of the Schalk brothers?) who hired 5 or 6 brass players, who were to be reserved for the last minutes of the Finale!

A good trick!

Arnold Bax writing in his autobiography "Farewell My Youth" (published in the mid 1940's) wrote the following description;

"At these concerts [Dresden 1906] I also listened to a symphony of Bruckner [No.5].  Beyond its 'heavenly length' I can remember nothing of it except its conclusion.  The finale was cast in the shape of a formidably dull fugue, and as it showed signs of approaching its peroration I thought to myself that seldom or never had I heard any orchestra pile up such a prodigious volume of sound.  It was at this precise moment that an army corps of brass instruments, which must have been crouching furtively behind the percussion, arose in their might and weighted in over the top with a chorale, probably intended by the pious composer as an invocation to 'Der alte Deutsche Gott' ".

Don't think Bax is a Bruckner fan..... On the previous page he describes Mahler as "eccentric, long-winded, muddle-headed, and yet always interesting composer".  Not sure the court of history will find in Bax's favour there either!!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on May 17, 2022, 11:53:55 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 17, 2022, 02:58:43 AM
Somewhere, many years ago, I read that there was a conductor (one of the Schalk brothers?) who hired 5 or 6 brass players, who were to be reserved for the last minutes of the Finale!

A good trick!
I thought there was even a tradition to place 12! extra brass elsewhere in the hall for the finale ("the 12 apostles") but I cannot find more about this, so I probably imagined this or it was a satire.

the 5th's finale is a bit too long and overambitious but still impressive. I have never seen this one live but the 8th is even longer, as we know, with a similarly huge finale and it is overwhelming in live performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: André on May 18, 2022, 06:04:06 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 17, 2022, 11:53:55 PM
I thought there was even a tradition to place 12! extra brass elsewhere in the hall for the finale ("the 12 apostles") but I cannot find more about this, so I probably imagined this or it was a satire.

the 5th's finale is a bit too long and overambitious but still impressive. I have never seen this one live but the 8th is even longer, as we know, with a similarly huge finale and it is overwhelming in live performance.

Schalk started the practice of augmenting the brass in the coda but apparently only Jochum continued it in modern times. Come the coda the regular brass players were inevitably tired and unable to produce the full volume Jochum wanted.

https://multivariate-life.blogspot.com/2011/04/eugen-jochums-11-apostles.html (https://multivariate-life.blogspot.com/2011/04/eugen-jochums-11-apostles.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 19, 2022, 01:52:02 PM
Quote from: André on May 18, 2022, 06:04:06 AM

Schalk started the practice of augmenting the brass in the coda but apparently only Jochum continued it in modern times. Come the coda the regular brass players were inevitably tired and unable to produce the full volume Jochum wanted.


https://multivariate-life.blogspot.com/2011/04/eugen-jochums-11-apostles.html (https://multivariate-life.blogspot.com/2011/04/eugen-jochums-11-apostles.html)


Yes, that was it!  The Eleven (or Twelve) Apostles!

I wanted to attend, but too many other things intervened: last Sunday the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra played the Bruckner Seventh Symphony.


Here is a rave review:


Quote

...Louis Langrée, who conducted the Seventh with the CSO in 2014, was clearly in his element. He was completely immersed in every phrase, yet never lost sight of the work's expansive architecture. The music was warmly conducted, and every phrase breathed, yet all was anchored with a firm pulse.

The first movement, itself large in scale, was anchored by glowing sonorities in the strings playing unending tremolos. Textures were transparent, and intimate moments were beautifully shaped. The ascent to its peaks were gradual. A glorious summation was reached in a stunning display of timpani rolls (Patrick Schleker).

The heart of the work is the second movement Adagio, a memorial to Bruckner's idol Richard Wagner, who died while he was writing it. How wonderful it was to hear the CSO's French horns and tuba with the quartet of Wagner tubas. They made a sound like sun streaming through stained glass. The trombones, too, performed seamlessly in the movement's climax, which quotes a theme from Bruckner's "Te Deum." Langrée's reading of the lyrical themes was deeply felt and he cultivated a rich sound in the strings.

The Scherzo contrasted with its buoyant, energized quality, centered by a serene and gentle trio. The finale caught the feeling of sheer joy, its climaxes building to the final rousing, brass-filled finish. ...



https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2022/05/15/bruckerners-seventh-a-glowing-summation-to-csos.html (https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2022/05/15/bruckerners-seventh-a-glowing-summation-to-csos.html)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on May 19, 2022, 02:23:00 PM
A lovely review, makes me wish l had been there.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 25, 2022, 10:10:31 AM
Quote from: LKB on May 19, 2022, 02:23:00 PM

A lovely review, makes me wish l had been there.


Yes, I was hoping to be present, especially since disease-mask requirements are gone, but things did not work out, unfortunately.

This came to my attention: Bruckner performed at Royal Albert Hall on its massive pipe organ.

"Bonobo" is not a simian   :o  , but an Englishman named "Simon Green."   8)

Quote

Bonobo has performed his hit track "Otomo" with the 151-year old pipe organ at the Royal Albert Hall as he closed a five day residency at the historic venue.

Check out the video below!

A spontaneous collaboration with one of the Hall's Associate Artists, organist Anna Lapwood, the performance came about when Bonobo - AKA Simon Green - heard Anna practicing the night before, his band writing an organ part for her by the afternoon.

Simon Green said: "It was an incredible moment and a fitting end to the five night residency. Being able to incorporate the organ into the performance really connected the idea of where we all are and how an electronic show could fully integrate into the space of the Hall. I'm extremely grateful to have met Anna and her contribution to the performance was a truly live affirming experience!"

The Hall's pipe organ, known as the "Voice of Jupiter", was the largest instrument in the world when it was built. It has since been expanded to 9,999 pipes and marked its 150th anniversary last year along with the venue. Since 1871 it has been played by the likes of Pink Floyd, Frank Zappa, Anton Bruckner, and Camille Saint-Saëns among others...


See:

https://www.broadwayworld.com/uk-regional/article/WATCH-Bonobo-Features-9999-Pipe-Organ-To-Close-Royal-Albert-Halls-First-Electronic-Residency-20220524 (https://www.broadwayworld.com/uk-regional/article/WATCH-Bonobo-Features-9999-Pipe-Organ-To-Close-Royal-Albert-Halls-First-Electronic-Residency-20220524)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 01, 2022, 01:35:03 PM
This performance was recently recommended to me:


https://www.youtube.com/v/3nl40ljhXro


It has 6 5-star reviews on Amazon, which is not a bad sign!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on July 01, 2022, 02:14:57 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 01, 2022, 01:35:03 PM
This performance was recently recommended to me:


https://www.youtube.com/v/3nl40ljhXro


It has 6 5-star reviews on Amazon, which is not a bad sign!

Stan in the man.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: staxomega on July 01, 2022, 02:51:09 PM
I have the Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken Bruckner cycle still in shrink that I've been meaning to get into when I have some time to give them the proper attention they deserve.

It was Skrowaczewski conducting both of Chopin's Piano Concerti that really made me appreciate him as a conductor.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on July 01, 2022, 03:20:09 PM
Quote from: hvbias on July 01, 2022, 02:51:09 PM
I have the Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken Bruckner cycle still in shrink that I've been meaning to get into when I have some time to give them the proper attention they deserve.

You have to open it right now!  It is so amazing!!  Just try the 7th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 01, 2022, 05:14:09 PM
Quote from: hvbias on July 01, 2022, 02:51:09 PM
I have the Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken Bruckner cycle still in shrink that I've been meaning to get into when I have some time to give them the proper attention they deserve.

It was Skrowaczewski conducting both of Chopin's Piano Concerti that really made me appreciate him as a conductor.


Quote from: DavidW on July 01, 2022, 03:20:09 PM

You have to open it right now!  It is so amazing!!  Just try the 7th.




That is one powerful recommendation!  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: staxomega on July 03, 2022, 04:46:09 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 01, 2022, 03:20:09 PM
You have to open it right now!  It is so amazing!!  Just try the 7th.

Looking forward to that since that is my favorite Bruckner symphony. But for me I can't think of anything more daunting than a Bruckner cycle, maybe listening to The Ring all the way through. I also (correctly or incorrectly) view Bruckner as a composer for choral works that just happened to write symphonies so my expectations can be different, things like excitement are low on my list of priorities so it restricts the performances I tend to gravitate towards, making sense of the flow, structure, "spirituality" are things I tend to value more.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 07, 2022, 10:08:06 AM
From the Charles Ives topic:

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 03, 2022, 07:13:43 PM

I've had people try and persuade me to stay away from this or that composer in the past and, honestly, you won't truly know how you feel until you've actually heard the music. Nobody should stop you from listening to the music that you want to hear. It's best to listen to your own inner voice and ignore the naysayers. Many people have wrote negatively about Ives in the past and many still do, but this will never affect my own thinking about the composer. He's one of the greatest composers I've ever heard and he's certainly an important American composer in that he sought out new avenues of expression that hadn't been heard previously. Whether he's successful or not is up to the listener not someone telling you that you shouldn't be listening to his music.



Very recently a friend wrote that various Mahler works did not attract him very much...except for Das Lied von der Erde.


It is fascinating to hear why people are instantly open to one composer, or need to be slowly persuaded by repeated listening of the oeuvre itself, or have a musical St. Paul epiphany and suddenly become converts after initial hostility.


Given that we have some new people here, I thought I would (re)tell the story of my discovery of Bruckner with some self-analysis as to why I was instantly attracted.


Before I was in grade school, I was quite aware that some of the music in cartoons from the 1930's and into the early 1950's was on a higher level of interest than the ditties heard on our radio.

The cartoon Peanuts with the character Schroeder and his Beethoven obsession, along with various children's shows (Leonard Bernstein's Young People's Concerts) helped me to start discovering classical music at the Dayton Library, which - very fortunately - had a marvelous and large selection of records and scores.

In short, I was soon teaching myself the History of Western Music, even finding the Gradus Ad Parnassum by German musicologist Josef Fux and began creating my own works.

Helping me in this was my Catholic parish, where the organ, a mighty 1920 Austin "Romantic" Pipe Organ could be heard every day: the organist was partial to the French school (Cesar Franck, Alexandre Guilmant, Theodore Dubois) along with some Americans (Pietro Yon).

From age 5 and up, I loved hearing this instrument and all the works chosen for our Masses and other liturgies, and I believe that this influence was crucial for my attraction to the works of Bruckner.

See:

https://www.stmarydayton.org/organ.php (https://www.stmarydayton.org/organ.php)

And so, around age 12 or so, while perusing the scores one day at the Main Library in downtown Dayton, I came across a brand new imported score edited by a certain Leopold Nowak from Die Internationale Bruckner-Gesellschaft .

It was the score of the Symphony #7.  I opened the first page and began imagining what I was hearing, and when I reached the opening climax I thought:

"I ABSOLUTELY MUST HEAR THIS!!!"

Fortunately, the Music Librarian, who should be canonized, had also ordered for the collection the DGG Eugen Jochum performance of the work.  I checked out both works, went home...

...and became addicted for life!   8) :D

From Bruckner it was easy to go to Mahler, and from Mahler to Schoenberg and beyond (e.g. Karl Amadeus Hartmann).

And to go full circle, I believe I discovered Ives through the famous comment by Schoenberg ("There is a great composer in this country: his name is Ives."), which was mentioned in a book about Schoenberg. 

Charles Ives was an instant favorite!   8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on July 07, 2022, 10:45:43 AM
I can relate.

My own discovery of AB came via his Ave Maria, which l sang as part of a massed- choir performance at a festival. Just a bunch of high school kids, but it definitely shivered me timbers...

Fast forward a few years. I walk into the local Tower Records classical room and hear tremolo strings supporting an ascending E Major arpeggio. I didn't recognize it as orchestral Bruckner, but l was hooked all the same.  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 07, 2022, 01:40:15 PM
7th was my first Bruckner experience too.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 07, 2022, 01:47:17 PM
Quote from: LKB on July 07, 2022, 10:45:43 AM

I can relate.

My own discovery of AB came via his Ave Maria, which l sang as part of a massed- choir performance at a festival. Just a bunch of high school kids, but it definitely shivered me timbers...

Fast forward a few years. I walk into the local Tower Records classical room and hear tremolo strings supporting an ascending E Major arpeggio. I didn't recognize it as orchestral Bruckner, but l was hooked all the same.  8)


For those not acquainted with the Ave Maria:

https://www.youtube.com/v/v01ziSiOqPw
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mapman on July 07, 2022, 01:59:51 PM
I first encountered Bruckner by checking this CD out from a library when I was in high school:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51crjrw6-2L.jpg)

I then was at an honor band, and in free time the low brass section decided to play the opening of the finale of the 8th. I didn't know what it was then, but a few weeks later I was listening to music on shuffle and figured it out.

Over the next few years, I was able to see the Philadelphia Orchestra perform Bruckner's 4th and 8th. I still had mixed feelings about the 4th, but really liked the 8th, even if it was a bit long.

More recently, I found Richard Atkinson's video analyzing the finale of Bruckner's 5th: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuiQFwjcPVQ. It helped me understand how Bruckner constructs his music, and made it easy to get into the 7th. The first movement of the 7th is currently my favorite Bruckner movement.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 07, 2022, 05:11:47 PM
Quote from: Mapman on July 07, 2022, 01:59:51 PM

I first encountered Bruckner by checking this CD out from a library when I was in high school:


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51crjrw6-2L.jpg)


More recently, I found Richard Atkinson's video analyzing the finale of Bruckner's 5th: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuiQFwjcPVQ. It helped me understand how Bruckner constructs his music, and made it easy to get into the 7th. The first movement of the 7th is currently my favorite Bruckner movement.




Eugen Jochum conducting as your introduction to Bruckner: you are in the club!

Many thanks for the story!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: staxomega on July 08, 2022, 10:45:07 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 07, 2022, 01:40:15 PM
7th was my first Bruckner experience too.

7th wasn't my first Bruckner symphony (that goes to 4), but it was Haitink's late 70s recording. It was like having the floor fall out beneath me. A Brucknarian for life after that!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on July 08, 2022, 10:51:38 AM
This was my first Bruckner recording:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/PmkAAOSwapxgDKFJ/s-l300.jpg)

Loved it, played it to death.  The only thing I played more often was Brahms piano concertos.

I loved all of the Bruckner symphonies immediately except the 8th.  I had Tintner and despite all the praise it was just bland.  I then bought Maazel and I liked it significantly more... but I only came to love the 8th when I heard Karajan.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Linz on July 08, 2022, 11:35:57 AM
The first Bruckner Symphony I bought was a 2 Record set I was in my early 20's searching out Classical music and one day I spotted Karajan,s 8th Intrigued by the cover I bought it Iwas enthralled by the power of the Orchestra and the Finale just floored me and that was one of the first encounters with Bruckner
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: staxomega on July 08, 2022, 11:45:48 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 08, 2022, 10:51:38 AM
This was my first Bruckner recording:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/PmkAAOSwapxgDKFJ/s-l300.jpg)

Loved it, played it to death.  The only thing I played more often was Brahms piano concertos.

I loved all of the Bruckner symphonies immediately except the 8th.  I had Tintner and despite all the praise it was just bland.  I then bought Maazel and I liked it significantly more... but I only came to love the 8th when I heard Karajan.

If that is with the Staatskapelle Dresden I like those two performances as well. I can't say I've been that taken with anything from Tintner's cycle other than being able to hear editions that aren't recorded often.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on July 08, 2022, 12:15:35 PM
I love the "wing" covers of the Karajan, although the only Bruckner recordings of his I own are the late 7th and 8th from Vienna with different boring (conductor in pose...) covers.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on July 08, 2022, 12:17:15 PM
Quote from: Linz on July 08, 2022, 11:35:57 AM
The first Bruckner Symphony I bought was a 2 Record set I was in my early 20's searching out Classical music and one day I spotted Karajan,s 8th Intrigued by the cover I bought it Iwas enthralled by the power of the Orchestra and the Finale just floored me and that was one of the first encounters with Bruckner

Another fan of the Karajan 8!  Nice! 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on July 08, 2022, 12:18:16 PM
Quote from: hvbias on July 08, 2022, 11:45:48 AM
If that is with the Staatskapelle Dresden I like those two performances as well. I can't say I've been that taken with anything from Tintner's cycle other than being able to hear editions that aren't recorded often.

Yup that is the Dresden.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: bhodges on July 08, 2022, 12:36:50 PM
Quote from: Linz on July 08, 2022, 11:35:57 AM
The first Bruckner Symphony I bought was a 2 Record set I was in my early 20's searching out Classical music and one day I spotted Karajan,s 8th Intrigued by the cover I bought it Iwas enthralled by the power of the Orchestra and the Finale just floored me and that was one of the first encounters with Bruckner

Quote from: DavidW on July 08, 2022, 12:17:15 PM
Another fan of the Karajan 8!  Nice! 

And another fan of that recording, as well as the entire cycle (which my brother once referred to as the "dead bird series" ;D). That was actually my second version of the Eighth; the first one was Haitink and the Concertgebouw (on LP!), which I played to death.

But in general, that Karajan/Berlin set is marvelous. Some of them, IIRC, have a few sonic minuses (not the Eighth), but overall, the cycle is quite an achievement.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Iota on July 09, 2022, 03:44:48 AM
Quote from: hvbias on July 08, 2022, 10:45:07 AM
7th wasn't my first Bruckner symphony (that goes to 4), but it was Haitink's late 70s recording. It was like having the floor fall out beneath me. A Brucknarian for life after that!

The 7th wasn't my first Bruckner either, but it was the one that eventually triggered a much greater connection for me with his music. The opening seemed somewhat like the magical opening of the Parsifal Prelude, with the same soaring feeling of a long journey into the unknown ahead, and such little details radiate widely in my little mind, and I was hooked.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Linz on July 09, 2022, 09:06:56 AM
What I have been wondering for some time is this set the same recordings from the Old Wing set?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on July 09, 2022, 10:49:52 AM
Quote from: Linz on July 09, 2022, 09:06:56 AM
What I have been wondering for some time is this set the same recordings from the Old Wing set?

Yes, but there's a better physical version now, which I've had for a couple years and can recommend:

https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Herbert-Karajan-Berliner-Philharmoniker/dp/B07NTXC6T9/ref=asc_df_B07NTXC6T9/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366402866330&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11460427002527733677&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031914&hvtargid=pla-781429570036&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=81880684288&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366402866330&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11460427002527733677&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031914&hvtargid=pla-781429570036
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Linz on July 09, 2022, 10:57:46 AM
Thanks I suspected it was
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on July 09, 2022, 11:09:26 AM
Quote from: LKB on July 09, 2022, 10:49:52 AM
Yes, but there's a better physical version now, which I've had for a couple years and can recommend:

https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Herbert-Karajan-Berliner-Philharmoniker/dp/B07NTXC6T9/ref=asc_df_B07NTXC6T9/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366402866330&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11460427002527733677&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031914&hvtargid=pla-781429570036&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=81880684288&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366402866330&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11460427002527733677&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031914&hvtargid=pla-781429570036

Did the cds get the remaster or is it only the blu-ray that did?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on July 09, 2022, 11:18:44 AM
I don't know if the CDs are remastered. I ripped the 5th and 7th onto my laptop as lossless .wav files and the sound is very good, with just the barest hint of distortion in a few places in both symphonies. So even if they don't benefit from the latest remastering technologies, they are still more than acceptable, imho.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Linz on July 09, 2022, 11:47:07 AM
There is also this set that came out before the 9CD set came out
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on July 09, 2022, 11:49:29 AM
I remember that one, held off on buying it though.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on July 09, 2022, 12:14:40 PM
I bought the Karajan/Berlin Bruckner 4-9 set as 24/192 FLAC downloads from ProStudioMasters.  Here's what the frequency spectrum looks like (attached).  192 kHz sample rate is overkill, but the musical signal does go up to about 48 kHz.

https://www.prostudiomasters.com/album/page/37737

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Linz on July 09, 2022, 12:54:29 PM
Also in that set they did it more logically by having Symphony 5 and 8 on their own disc
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 23, 2022, 07:18:16 AM
I just came across this!

The Austrians have become quite serious about passing on Bruckner's music to the next generation!


Junge Brucknertagen!  (Bruckner Days for Young People)


https://www.brucknertage.at/junge/ (https://www.brucknertage.at/junge/)


"Erstaunen, Entdecken, Mitmachen" - "Be Amazed, Discover, Play Along"

Quote

Jeden Tag wartet ein spannendes neues Programm auf euch rund um das Leben, die Musik und die Zeit Anton Bruckners. Du kannst unsere halbtägigen Workshops besuchen oder auch den ganzen Tag mit uns verbringen:



"Every day an exciting new program about the life, music, and times of Anton Bruckner awaits you.  You can attend our half-day Workshops or just spend the whole day with us..."

(https://www.brucknertage.at/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/titelbild-brucknerbewegt-2022.jpg)



(https://www.brucknertage.at/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/brucknerpfeift-titelbild1.jpg)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 24, 2022, 11:44:39 AM
 "The Heavenly Ladder to Eternity: Bruckners Te Deum"

(https://www.brucknertage.at/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/StFBt22-Website-990x375px.jpg)


",,Unsere Vision war und ist es, das intensive Erleben der Musik von Anton Bruckner, die sich nicht jedem leicht erschließt, zu ermöglichen und Nachwuchstalente zu fördern", so Univ. Prof. Dr. Klaus Laczika, Gründer der St. Florianer Brucknertage."

"Our vision was and is: to make possible an intensive experience of Anton Bruckner's music, which is not easily accessible to everyone, and to encourage talented people of the next generations," said university Professor Dr. Klaus Laczika, founder of the Saint Florian Bruckner Days." 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 26, 2022, 06:29:45 AM
Has anyone read this book?

Dermot Gault is a Northern Irish (born in Belfast) musicologist.


The New Bruckner: Compositional Development and the dynamics of Revision


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51wXmk6BqvL._AC_US218_..jpg)


One reviewer writes:

Quote

This is an excellent book, a must for Bruckner fans. Those dismayed by the controversy surrounding multiple versions of the Bruckner symphonies will be delighted to learn that, in many instances, it was Bruckner himself who made the final decisions on revisions, and not just as a result of persuasion by his friends, disciples and students.

Notwithstanding the well meaning major rewrite of Bruckner's 5th at its premier in 1894 by Franz Schalk, Bruckner being too ill to attend, and the adulteration of the first 3 movements of his 9th by Ferdinand Lowe after Bruckner's death, sometimes Bruckner's last word on his symphonies was his last word. Clearly, he desired to do what was necessary to get his works performed, but his revisions were still his revisions, and reflect the beauty and intensity of his genius.

The book reviews all the symphonies and the revisions: it is well written and easy to follow.

[/size][/i]

It is NOT cheap by any means!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 26, 2022, 11:06:04 PM
"Notwithstanding the well meaning major rewrite of Bruckner's 5th at its premier in 1894 by Franz Schalk, Bruckner being too ill to attend, and the adulteration of the first 3 movements of his 9th by Ferdinand Lowe after Bruckner's death, sometimes Bruckner's last word on his symphonies was his last word. Clearly, he desired to do what was necessary to get his works performed, but his revisions were still his revisions, and reflect the beauty and intensity of his genius. "

If the reviewer is accurately paraphrasing the thesis of the book then it's interesting that it contains such a powerful statement of this thesis because usually what you find nowadays is the more moderate proposition that it's good to have so many versions of Bruckner symphonies and we can listen to different versions and appreciate Bruckner's revisions. This is the thesis of William Carrigan in his Anton Bruckner: Eleven Symphonies, published by the Bruckner Society of America in 2021. This volume, by the way, tells you everything you need to know about the various versions of the Bruckner symphonies and includes copious musical examples with QR code links to musical extracts online.

However, I believe more or less the opposite of this thesis and I thought it might be useful to put down why I think this is the case.
In literary studies the dictum is 'the last version published under the author's supervision is the one to be preferred', but literary scholars as often break this rule as they observe it. Very few Wordsworthians would be found who prefer the later revisions of The Prelude over the 1805 version, for example. And in musical studies, although the 'latest revision' is the preferred version according to orthodoxy, there are examples of a composer who had to modify their work to get it performed (or had it modified for them) whose original versions are later preferred, Janáček for example.

These are the main reasons why I believe that the first versions of Bruckner symphonies are in the main to be preferred (there are two exceptions to this, which I discuss later):

1.   Firstly they sound better, I don't think anyone who comes to the first versions first can honestly say that they prefer the later ones. For example the first version I heard of the 2nd Symphony was the 1872 version recorded by Georg Tinter. This is basically the only version I listened to until a few years ago when I put on a recording of the 1877 revision; even though this revision is not as drastic as later revisions of this or other early symphonies, I was genuinely shocked by the senseless cuts in the slow movement and the finale, which make no sense structurally and remove some fine music for no very good reason. Conversely I had listened to several of the later symphonies when a teenager, but was put off Bruckner for a time by a recording by Karajan of the 1889 revision of the 3rd. I couldn't understand why this work was so clumsy and inept. When I heard the original version it was a revelation, then I saw what Bruckner had intended.
2.   Secondly there is no prima facie reason why Bruckner needed to revise his symphonies; the early ones are early Bruckner with fresh, somewhat naïve orchestration and variable phrase lengths. When Bruckner revised these later in life he regularised the phrasing and made the orchestration more massive... more like late Bruckner in fact. If Beethoven had revised his First Symphony at the time of the Ninth in the style of his later works would anyone welcome this? If the symphonies needed to be revised (which they don't) anyone but Bruckner should have undertaken it, as he was last person who could have done it sympathetically in his earlier style. And many people have listened to 'Die Nullte', a symphony that Bruckner never revised; has anyone ever suggested that this work needs to have its phrasing regularised, its orchestration made more massive and have various (almost random) chunks chopped out of it to make a better symphony?
3.   The relations between Bruckner's 'friends' and the master are easily seen as abusive and parasitic. Instead of getting to know his work and understanding it, and promoting it by educating conductors and orchestras on the music, they simply kept him in a constant state of anxiety about his work and they wasted his time later in life by suggesting needless revisions to earlier works. They may have contributed to, or even caused, Bruckner's mental health problems later in life, and they certainly prevented him from fully finishing the 9th. [I believe that Bruckner did finish the 9th in bifolios and then stopped wok, too exhausted to continue, but convinced that time would vindicate him. The theft of manuscript pages after this death stymied this.] I have a close relative who suffers from a chronic lack of self-confidence, and it is clear that when afflicted by this this person is as deluded as someone who has inflated opinions of their talents or abilities. If Bruckner had had real friends they would have understood this and helped him instead of hindering him, and if they had he may have been able to premiere the 9th and even begin a 10th. In fact I think the nature of the revisions that Bruckner made at the suggestions of his 'friends' show that he himself did not agree with them. By the late 1880s he may have thought it was a good idea to regularise and reorchestrate earlier works in his late style, but the fact that he made big, senseless cuts in his works when revising to me indicates a sort of passive aggressive revision designed to show posterity he was in a hostage situation ('The Schalks are forcing me to revise this symphony, but I don't want to so I am making such egregious cuts that no-one can take them seriously and within a few years people will seek out the original MSs at the National Library and restore the earlier versions').

I did mention two exceptions to the rule of 'earliest version'. These are the 4th and the 8th. In both cases Bruckner wrote the first versions of these works in a state of unusual confidence. In the case of the 4th it was that he had just finished the first version of the 3rd and must have realised what a step forward it was (not that 1 and 2 are inconsiderable works!); he also hadn't yet experienced the set back with the first performance of the 3rd. In the case of the 8th he was buoyed by the success of the 7th in performance. In both these cases I think he simply composed much faster than he normally did and didn't have enough of a chance to (privately) revise the works. With the 4th he had problems with an insubstantial scherzo and with the structure of the finale. In the case of the finale he was moving towards a much freer structure for the finale of the kind that he demonstrated in a masterly way in the symphonies from 5 onwards. With the 8th it was a question of revising the ending to the first movement to the familiar quiet ending, revising the scherzo trio and tightening the structure of the slow movement; interestingly AFAIK he didn't revise the finale much at all, indicating he had now got finale writing down pat and wasn't worried by it. Haas' useful edition kept the changes to the first movement, scherzo and slow movement, but resisted later MS excisions which show Bruckner slipping down the slope of ruining the work by senseless cuts (as in the Nowak edition).

So just to summarise: these are the versions that should be preferred because they are not needlessly revised and because they sound better:

Symphony No.1   1866 version (the 1877 'Linz Version' was revised after Bruckner had taken up residence in Vienna)
Die Nullte   Never revised
Symphony No. 2   1872
Symphony No. 3   1873
Symphony No. 4   1881
Symphony No. 5   No significant revisions
Symphony No. 6   No significant revisions
Symphony No. 7   1885 version, Haas edition which doesn't have the intrusive cymbals and triangle in the slow movement
Symphony No. 8   1890 version, Haas edition
Symphony No. 9   Op post, with Samale–Phillips–Cohrs–Mazzuca Conclusive Revised Edition 2012 version of finale



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MusicTurner on July 27, 2022, 09:05:48 AM
I totally agree with your main, last points, that the original version of III (and II) are to be preferred, but not the original versions of IV and VIII.

Considering this, it's a bit strange, how the later versions of III have traditionally remained by far the most recorded.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 27, 2022, 12:29:15 PM
An excellent essay above by Calyptorhynchus!!!

Many thanks for taking the time to set out the case for Originalfassungen mit zwei Ausnahmen!

I do not have too much time right now, but here are some reactions.


Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 26, 2022, 11:06:04 PM

If the reviewer is accurately paraphrasing the thesis of the book then it's interesting that it contains such a powerful statement of this thesis because usually what you find nowadays is the more moderate proposition that it's good to have so many versions of Bruckner symphonies and we can listen to different versions and appreciate Bruckner's revisions. This is the thesis of William Carrigan in his Anton Bruckner: Eleven Symphonies, published by the Bruckner Society of America in 2021. This volume, by the way, tells you everything you need to know about the various versions of the Bruckner symphonies and includes copious musical examples with QR code links to musical extracts online.

However, I believe more or less the opposite of this thesis and I thought it might be useful to put down why I think this is the case.


I was raised on the Leopold Nowak editions as recorded by (Saint) Eugen Jochum.  Nowak at times included sections which had been excised in his edited scores, and which therefore were not recorded by Jochum.

Looking at those deleted sections (indicated by Nowak with the Latin abbreviation Vide split into two syllables to indicate the beginning and end of the deletion, i.e. Vi-.....-de )  back then, I remember wondering: "Why was this taken out?!  It seems wonderful!"

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 26, 2022, 11:06:04 PM

For example the first version I heard of the 2nd Symphony was the 1872 version recorded by Georg Tinter. This is basically the only version I listened to until a few years ago when I put on a recording of the 1877 revision; even though this revision is not as drastic as later revisions of this or other early symphonies, I was genuinely shocked by the senseless cuts in the slow movement and the finale, which make no sense structurally and remove some fine music for no very good reason. Conversely I had listened to several of the later symphonies when a teenager, but was put off Bruckner for a time by a recording by Karajan of the 1889 revision of the 3rd. I couldn't understand why this work was so clumsy and inept. When I heard the original version it was a revelation, then I saw what Bruckner had intended.


Your reaction was my reaction, with the caveat that my reaction came about 30 years later after knowing only the edited revision of the Second Symphony!  Yes, so much marvelous music, c. 15-20 minutes more, and that marvelous slow movement seemed to have been the main victim!


Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 26, 2022, 11:06:04 PM

If Beethoven had revised his First Symphony at the time of the Ninth in the style of his later works would anyone welcome this?

If the symphonies needed to be revised (which they don't) anyone but Bruckner should have undertaken it, as he was last person who could have done it sympathetically in his earlier style.

And many people have listened to 'Die Nullte', a symphony that Bruckner never revised; has anyone ever suggested that this work needs to have its phrasing regularised, its orchestration made more massive and have various (almost random) chunks chopped out of it to make a better symphony?


The first point is excellent, the second is even more powerful!

I had the good fortune to hear Stefan Sanderling conduct the Toledo Symphony (in a concert in a Cathedral!) in the Symphony #0!.

It seemed that Sanderling and the orchestra both thought this work was on the same level as the last three symphonies, i.e. he treated it as the mighty work it is!


Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 26, 2022, 11:06:04 PM

I did mention two exceptions to the rule of 'earliest version'. These are the 4th and the 8th.


In both cases Bruckner wrote the first versions of these works in a state of unusual confidence. In the case of the 4th it was that he had just finished the first version of the 3rd and must have realised what a step forward it was (not that 1 and 2 are inconsiderable works!); he also hadn't yet experienced the set back with the first performance of the 3rd.


So just to summarise: these are the versions that should be preferred because they are not needlessly revised and because they sound better:


Symphony No.1   1866 version (the 1877 'Linz Version' was revised after Bruckner had taken up residence in Vienna)
Die Nullte   Never revised
Symphony No. 2   1872
Symphony No. 3   1873
Symphony No. 4   1881
Symphony No. 5   No significant revisions
Symphony No. 6   No significant revisions
Symphony No. 7   1885 version, Haas edition which doesn't have the intrusive cymbals and triangle in the slow movement
Symphony No. 8   1890 version, Haas edition
Symphony No. 9   Op post, with Samale–Phillips–Cohrs–Mazzuca Conclusive Revised Edition 2012 version of finale


In my later years I am quite happy to have recordings of these available, and as a long-time adherent to the Nowak editions, I must say that your list is on target!

Which recording of the 2012 completion of the Ninth Symphony have you heard?

I will make some comments later!


Also:

Quote from: MusicTurner on July 27, 2022, 09:05:48 AM

I totally agree with your main, last points, that the original version of III (and II) are to be preferred, but not the the original versions of IV and VIII.


Considering this, it's a bit strange, how the later versions of III have traditionally remained by far the most recorded.





Yes, what is the problem?  Are the "Wagner" references politically incorrect or embarrassing or something?  When I first heard the original version, I was amazed at how slight the homage to Wagner is!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on August 27, 2022, 01:02:49 PM
Anyone listening to Bruckner lately? What are you listening to?

I've come to love Bruckner over the past three years or so, but it's clicking with me a little extra lately. Still love the Barenboim/Berlin Philharmonic recordings which were my introduction to Bruckner's music. I just can't get over how good the BPO sounds, and Barenboim takes a very solid middle of the road approach through the music: nothing too crazy, nothing too Zen'd out. It's clear he's very passionate about this composer.

Any thoughts on the Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin? It's more recent than this cycle, but I have not heard much about it. There's also his earlier Chicago cycle for DG, which is not easy to find right now.

I just picked up the Jochum/Dresden cycle for dirt cheap, and I can't wait to spend time with it. 

For all the Bruckner listening I've done over the past few years, I still feel like I'm just beginning to scratch the surface. There's a lot to unpack, just like with Mahler, but of course the music is completely and utterly different.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 27, 2022, 11:50:32 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 27, 2022, 01:02:49 PM
Anyone listening to Bruckner lately? What are you listening to?

I've come to love Bruckner over the past three years or so, but it's clicking with me a little extra lately. Still love the Barenboim/Berlin Philharmonic recordings which were my introduction to Bruckner's music. I just can't get over how good the BPO sounds, and Barenboim takes a very solid middle of the road approach through the music: nothing too crazy, nothing too Zen'd out. It's clear he's very passionate about this composer.

Any thoughts on the Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin? It's more recent than this cycle, but I have not heard much about it. There's also his earlier Chicago cycle for DG, which is not easy to find right now.

I just picked up the Jochum/Dresden cycle for dirt cheap, and I can't wait to spend time with it. 

For all the Bruckner listening I've done over the past few years, I still feel like I'm just beginning to scratch the surface. There's a lot to unpack, just like with Mahler, but of course the music is completely and utterly different.

Bruckner is one of those composers who I listen to often and have far too many cycles of!  But at the same time I don't really consider myself a Bruckner "expert".  In part, because I think he is one of those composers that folk like to get rather fixated on in a "connoisseur" manner.  So the music itself can get lost in heated debates about Haas or Nowak (or others), which version of any given work is "better" gesang-periods and just how visionary conductor X or Y is none of which is why I listen to Bruckner. 

I suspect the performances I enjoy and the style of Bruckner playing that I respond to most would be deeply frowned on by 'those-in-the-know'.  For example - I really enjoy the sheer dynamism of Barenboim's Chicago cycle.  The No.4 in that set absolutely blazes.  But for my sins the other day I listened to one of Gunter Wand's No.7's with the NDR and frankly my mind wandered.  Yes I could appreciate the lyrical qualities and the way he controlled climaxes but I found it just all a bit too measured.  I have the 2 other Barenboim cycles as well but neither top Chicago.

Away from Barenboim, I think the (partial) Rogner) cycle on Brilliant is wonderful - lythe and incisive but then I do enjoy the classic Karajan/BPO visionary style too.  Jochum's last/live No.5 with the Concertgebouw is astonishing.  Chailly leaves me relatively cold - well played of course but.......  The bargain Paternoster cycle folk seem to love and I hated - the only set I ever sold - sloppily played/poorly balanced and just too resonant in the live acoustic.  A genuinely great traditional cycle is Skrowaczewski in Saarbrucken.  I also enjoy Sinopoli's partial Dresden set - a powerful No.8 and Dresden playing Bruckner is stunning.  The Jochum Dresden set I only have in an early CD iteration - the playing is great (I prefer it to his DG set) but compromised by the slightly glassy engineering.  I suspect if Mirror Image were still here he'd put in a shout for the Japanese remasters which I seem to remember him raving about - but I can't afford those!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scion7 on August 28, 2022, 12:28:11 AM
Here, old boy - try this.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 02, 2022, 05:09:25 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 27, 2022, 01:02:49 PM
Anyone listening to Bruckner lately? What are you listening to?

I just picked up the Jochum/Dresden cycle for dirt cheap, and I can't wait to spend time with it. 


Good for you!

The usual opinion one reads about that cycle is that the Eastern Germans play the music with a "raw" sound, which for some people is not necessarily a bad thing.   8)

I recall it being very good: the playing of the Fifth Symphony is better than the DGG performance from the 1960's.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on September 02, 2022, 05:31:13 PM
In March of next year, Die Wiener Philharmoniker will be in Berkeley, California.

They're scheduled to preform Bruckner's Eighth, and l intend to be there.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on September 02, 2022, 05:58:59 PM
Brucknerthon XXIV playlist:

- Overture in G minor: Hager/SWF Symphony Orchestra (Amati CD, 1988)

- Symphony 1: Järvi/Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra (RCA SACD, 2013)

- Symphony 0: Poschner/Linz Bruckner Orchestra (Capriccio CD, 2021)

- Symphony 2: Zender/SWF Symphony Orchestra (Amati CD, 1990)

- Symphony 3: Asahina/New Japan Philharmonic Orchestra (Fontec/Tower Records SACD, 1996)

- Symphony 4: Dohnányi/Philharmonia Orchestra (Signum CD, 2008)

- Symphony 5: Haitink/Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (BPO Blu-ray Audio, 2011)

- Symphony 6: Blomstedt/Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra (Querstand SACD, 2008)

- Symphony 7: Schuricht/Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Testament CD, 1964)

- Symphony 8: Kubelik/Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra (Altus CD, 1965)

- Symphony 9: Skrowaczewski/Minnesota Orchestra (Reference Recordings CD, 1996)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on September 02, 2022, 06:16:21 PM
Quote from: Cato on September 02, 2022, 05:09:25 PM
Good for you!

The usual opinion one reads about that cycle is that the Eastern Germans play the music with a "raw" sound, which for some people is not necessarily a bad thing.   8)

I recall it being very good: the playing of the Fifth Symphony is better than the DGG performance from the 1960's.

Raw—I definitely agree with that. The brass is super sharp, it could cut glass. I'm reminded of another East German Bruckner recording that I really like: Heinz Bongartz in Leipzig performing the 6th. Jochum does Bruckner way differently than the conductors I'm used to listening to. It's not that it's extremely erratic, far from it, but his tempi are definitely more volatile than the Brucknerians I usually go for, which would include Daniel Barenboim, Georg Tintner and Günter Wand. Puts a different spin on the music, that I'm not quite used to yet.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Linz on September 03, 2022, 06:59:41 AM
Quote from: Daverz on September 02, 2022, 05:58:59 PM
Brucknerthon XXIV playlist:

- Overture in G minor: Hager/SWF Symphony Orchestra (Amati CD, 1988)

- Symphony 1: Järvi/Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra (RCA SACD, 2013)

- Symphony 0: Poschner/Linz Bruckner Orchestra (Capriccio CD, 2021)

- Symphony 2: Zender/SWF Symphony Orchestra (Amati CD, 1990)

- Symphony 3: Asahina/New Japan Philharmonic Orchestra (Fontec/Tower Records SACD, 1996)

- Symphony 4: Dohnányi/Philharmonia Orchestra (Signum CD, 2008)

- Symphony 5: Haitink/Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (BPO Blu-ray Audio, 2011)

- Symphony 6: Blomstedt/Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra (Querstand SACD, 2008)

- Symphony 7: Schuricht/Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Testament CD, 1964)

- Symphony 8: Kubelik/Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra (Altus CD, 1965)

- Symphony 9: Skrowaczewski/Minnesota Orchestra (Reference Recordings CD, 1996)
Thanks for posting
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MusicTurner on September 03, 2022, 10:19:36 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 02, 2022, 06:16:21 PM
Raw—I definitely agree with that. The brass is super sharp, it could cut glass. I'm reminded of another East German Bruckner recording that I really like: Heinz Bongartz in Leipzig performing the 6th. Jochum does Bruckner way differently than the conductors I'm used to listening to. It's not that it's extremely erratic, far from it, but his tempi are definitely more volatile than the Brucknerians I usually go for, which would include Daniel Barenboim, Georg Tintner and Günter Wand. Puts a different spin on the music, that I'm not quite used to yet.

Rögner, Abendroth, Suitner and sometimes Konwitschny of course did good, East-German Bruckner performances too.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on September 03, 2022, 10:58:42 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 02, 2022, 06:16:21 PM
Raw—I definitely agree with that. The brass is super sharp, it could cut glass. I'm reminded of another East German Bruckner recording that I really like: Heinz Bongartz in Leipzig performing the 6th. Jochum does Bruckner way differently than the conductors I'm used to listening to. It's not that it's extremely erratic, far from it, but his tempi are definitely more volatile than the Brucknerians I usually go for, which would include Daniel Barenboim, Georg Tintner and Günter Wand. Puts a different spin on the music, that I'm not quite used to yet.

I started with Jochum, and probably biased but he's still my favourite Bruckner conductor. Raw, intense, spontaneous. The 5th is a great example, but even more so is the Dresden 9th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on September 03, 2022, 12:14:56 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on September 03, 2022, 10:58:42 AM
I started with Jochum, and probably biased but he's still my favourite Bruckner conductor. Raw, intense, spontaneous. The 5th is a great example, but even more so is the Dresden 9th.

I shall get to that one perhaps next. I was trying to work my way through the cycle chronologically but I started mixing it up when I got to the 3rd, because I'm just not really crazy about Bruckner's 3rd unfortunately.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on September 03, 2022, 12:16:47 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 03, 2022, 12:14:56 PM
I shall get to that one perhaps next. I was trying to work my way through the cycle chronologically but I started mixing it up when I got to the 3rd, because I'm just not really crazy about Bruckner's 3rd unfortunately.

Oh, sorry to hear that! I love the 3rd!  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on September 03, 2022, 12:28:15 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on September 03, 2022, 12:16:47 PM
Oh, sorry to hear that! I love the 3rd!  :)

Not to worry, I expect I shall come around on it eventually.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 03, 2022, 02:59:57 PM
Quote from: LKB on September 02, 2022, 05:31:13 PM
In March of next year, Die Wiener Philharmoniker will be in Berkeley, California.

They're scheduled to preform Bruckner's Eighth, and l intend to be there.

WOW!  Thanks for the update: I will inform my "California brother"!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 03, 2022, 03:18:02 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 02, 2022, 06:16:21 PM
Raw—I definitely agree with that. The brass is super sharp, it could cut glass. I'm reminded of another East German Bruckner recording that I really like: Heinz Bongartz in Leipzig performing the 6th. Jochum does Bruckner way differently than the conductors I'm used to listening to. It's not that it's extremely erratic, far from it, but his tempi are definitely more volatile than the Brucknerians I usually go for, which would include Daniel Barenboim, Georg Tintner and Günter Wand. Puts a different spin on the music, that I'm not quite used to yet.

I think Bruckner gives conductors a good amount of freedom: his scores are not particularly full of "micromanagement," so to speak.


Quote from: OrchestralNut on September 03, 2022, 10:58:42 AM

I started with Jochum, and probably biased but he's still my favourite Bruckner conductor. Raw, intense, spontaneous. The 5th is a great example, but even more so is the Dresden 9th.



You are in Saint Eugen's club!   0:)   8)     Certainly I have enjoyed Jochum's performances since the 1960's, when they were first coming out on DGG!

Speaking of the Fifth Symphony, someone has placed his last performance of that work from the mid-1980's on YouTube.

There is no sign of this performance being any kind of valedictory one:

Quote

This live recording captures Jochum's penultimate concert, and his final appearance with the Concertgebouw, just a few months before his death in 1987. The audience apparently applauded so enthusiastically that Jochum and the orchestra encored the finale.


https://www.youtube.com/v/eFFnjWW8jwo



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on September 04, 2022, 10:11:17 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on September 03, 2022, 10:58:42 AM
I started with Jochum, and probably biased but he's still my favourite Bruckner conductor. Raw, intense, spontaneous. The 5th is a great example, but even more so is the Dresden 9th.

Certainly Jochum is astonishingly good with the 9th in Dresden. I have a bunch of Bruckner 9ths but this one does stand out on first listen.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 04, 2022, 08:29:04 PM
Quote from: Cato on September 03, 2022, 03:18:02 PM
I think Bruckner gives conductors a good amount of freedom: his scores are not particularly full of "micromanagement," so to speak.


Which to me means that unless tempo changes are indicated they shouldn't be enacted. Obviously it's not possible to conduct a long symphonic movement at an inhumanely steady tempo, but it is easy to avoid slamming the brakes on and then later flooring the pedal, as some conductors do (many times over).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Spotted Horses on September 04, 2022, 08:34:35 PM
I tend to find Jochum somewhat overdoes it in Bruckner, to my taste anyway. I think Karajan was superb in many of the symphonies, particularly No 4 (especially EMI), 6, 7, 8. In generally I tend to enjoy the conductors that don't double down on Bruckner's idiosyncrasies (Haitink/Concertgebouw, Chailly). I have gotten the Vengazo and am curious to hear what he does with it, and I also have the Maazel/Bayerichen Rundfunks set and have yet to listen.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on September 05, 2022, 04:28:00 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on September 04, 2022, 08:34:35 PM
I tend to find Jochum somewhat overdoes it in Bruckner, to my taste anyway. I think Karajan was superb in many of the symphonies, particularly No 4 (especially EMI), 6, 7, 8. In generally I tend to enjoy the conductors that don't double down on Bruckner's idiosyncrasies (Haitink/Concertgebouw, Chailly). I have gotten the Vengazo and am curious to hear what he does with it, and I also have the Maazel/Bayerichen Rundfunks set and have yet to listen.

I have that Karajan EMI 4th, I'll have to revisit soon. Karajan seems to take a "meditative" approach to Bruckner which seems to complement his habit of conducting with his eyes closed ;D I also have 7 and 8 with Vienna, but the sound kind of puts me off. I have early, non-remastered issues of them and I remember them sounding kind of harsh. But maybe I'm remembering that incorrectly.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Spotted Horses on September 05, 2022, 07:14:12 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 05, 2022, 04:28:00 AM
I have that Karajan EMI 4th, I'll have to revisit soon. Karajan seems to take a "meditative" approach to Bruckner which seems to complement his habit of conducting with his eyes closed ;D I also have 7 and 8 with Vienna, but the sound kind of puts me off. I have early, non-remastered issues of them and I remember them sounding kind of harsh. But maybe I'm remembering that incorrectly.

I wouldn't be surprised if the early releases of those Karajan/WPO Bruckner recordings had "digital glare." They are also used as the soundtrack for the Sony videos, and I seem to recall reading that Sony had gone back to the Wiener Grossenmusikvereign and recorded a playback of the recording to add reverberation that was absent in the original recording. (Maybe memory playing tricks).

It is bizarre the Karajan was recording Bruckner for EMI and DG almost simultaneously in the 70's (the recordings of the 4th and 7th were only a few years apart). I have a slight preference for EMI because I think the engineering was better.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on September 05, 2022, 07:19:25 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on September 05, 2022, 07:14:12 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if the early releases of those Karajan/WPO Bruckner recordings had "digital glare." They are also used as the soundtrack for the Sony videos, and I seem to recall reading that Sony had gone back to the Wiener Grossenmusikvereign and recorded a playback of the recording to add reverberation that was absent in the original recording. (Maybe memory playing tricks).

It is bizarre the Karajan was recording Bruckner for EMI and DG almost simultaneously in the 70's (the recordings of the 4th and 7th were only a few years apart). I have a slight preference for EMI because I think the engineering was better.

Not too much Karajan Bruckner on EMI, is there? I only know of the 4th and 7th. Not sure why he redid them at all, to be honest. (Have not heard any of the DG/Berlin Karajan Bruckner stuff.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MusicTurner on September 05, 2022, 07:37:42 AM
The 8th too, two recordings 1944 (incomplete, but partly stereo!) & 1957. But 4 + 7 most impressive, IMHO.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 05, 2022, 01:36:24 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on September 04, 2022, 08:29:04 PM
Which to me means that unless tempo changes are indicated they shouldn't be enacted. Obviously it's not possible to conduct a long symphonic movement at an inhumanely steady tempo, but it is easy to avoid slamming the brakes on and then later flooring the pedal, as some conductors do (many times over).

By Hans Hubert-Schoenzeler in his 1970 book Bruckner (p. 181)

Quote

...By contrast (with Klemperer) Eugen Jochum allows himself infinite freedom (with the score), especially in matters of tempo, and yet, his readings are in the truest spirit of Bruckner...he must certainly be regarded as one of the greatest Bruckner conductors alive...



To be sure, I recall another Bruckner expert from those days (I cannot find the reference right now) who was fine with Jochum's readings in general...with one great exception!

He thought that the DGG performance of the Fifth Symphony was spoiled by Jochum "halving the tempo" for the great finale of the Fourth Movement.  It was his opinion that, if anything, the speed should be increased, not slowed down by half!

To be sure, the brakes are slammed on quite a bit in that performance, and I do not believe that Jochum does that in subsequent recordings.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on September 05, 2022, 02:44:51 PM
Quote from: MusicTurner on September 05, 2022, 07:37:42 AM
The 8th too, two recordings 1944 (incomplete, but partly stereo!) & 1957. But 4 + 7 most impressive, IMHO.

Stereo (even "partly") from 1944? HOW?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MusicTurner on September 05, 2022, 08:06:09 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 05, 2022, 02:44:51 PM
Stereo (even "partly") from 1944? HOW?

Yeah, the German recording studio did an experimental 'two channel' stereo recording of the Finale. This even in September 1944 ...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on September 05, 2022, 08:52:44 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 05, 2022, 02:44:51 PM
Stereo (even "partly") from 1944? HOW?

(https://www.stokowski.org/images/Bell-Labs-1931-HiFi.jpg)

I transferred this LP to FLAC for a friend.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 06, 2022, 05:35:25 AM
Quote from: Daverz on September 05, 2022, 08:52:44 PM
(https://www.stokowski.org/images/Bell-Labs-1931-HiFi.jpg)

I transferred this LP to FLAC for a friend.

Leopold Stokowski and Walt Disney recorded a stereo soundtrack for Fantasia (1940):

Quote

...Thanks to Disney and Stokowski's experimental spirit, the engineering prowess of Bell Laboratories and RCA, and to Disney's great expense, Fantasia brought stereo sound to the masses. Recorded onto film and played back through a proprietary multi-channel system dubbed Fantasound, Fantasia presented not just a visual but an aural marvel to those lucky enough to catch its 1940 release.

It turned out to be a flash, with the film's stereo presentation being put on pause as World War II raged. But the initial Fantasia roadshow—which took over theaters in 13 cities, including the initial showing at New York City's Broadway Theatre on November 13, 1940—introduced the stereo future to commercial audiences....



See:

https://reverb.com/news/fantasia-and-the-birth-of-stereo-recording (https://reverb.com/news/fantasia-and-the-birth-of-stereo-recording)



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on September 06, 2022, 12:41:34 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 05, 2022, 07:19:25 AM
Not too much Karajan Bruckner on EMI, is there? I only know of the 4th and 7th. Not sure why he redid them at all, to be honest. (Have not heard any of the DG/Berlin Karajan Bruckner stuff.)

I owned HvK's EMI recordings of Symphonies 4 and 7 some years ago. I liked the Seventh more, but still prefer his analog DG version.

The EMI Fourth was frustrating for me. A great performance right up to the closing bars, where the principal trumpet apparently decided that he needed to play as loudly as possible, a glaring, ruinous distraction at the very end of the work.

So l'll stick with the Böhm/VPO 1973 Decca recording, which is practically perfect in every way.

That being said, HvK is generally still my preference for Bruckner, with Haitink a very close second.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on September 06, 2022, 01:39:14 PM
Quote from: LKB on September 06, 2022, 12:41:34 PM
So l'll stick with the Böhm/VPO 1973 Decca recording, which is practically perfect in every way.

Agreed, that's a very good one.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 07, 2022, 04:56:48 PM
Quote from: LKB on September 06, 2022, 12:41:34 PM

I owned HvK's EMI recordings of Symphonies 4 and 7 some years ago. I liked the Seventh more, but still prefer his analog DG version.

That being said, HvK is generally still my preference for Bruckner, with Haitink a very close second.


Speaking of Herbie von Karajan  8)  this recording of the FIRST SYMPHONY, which seems not to receive enough love, has always intrigued me:


https://www.youtube.com/v/l1i0jgP0XB4
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 07, 2022, 05:04:11 PM
Quote from: Cato on September 07, 2022, 04:56:48 PM

Speaking of Herbie von Karajan  8)  this recording of the FIRST SYMPHONY, which seems not to receive enough love, has always intrigued me:


https://www.youtube.com/v/l1i0jgP0XB4



Some of the YouTube comments are most interesting:

Quote

"This powerful symphony erases the haze of the mind ."

"The opening theme brings to mind the journey of man, his steps in the route of life, with his pains, his intimate passions, and the faith in the divine providence expressed by the tutti- fullness of the orchestra, but also the intimate and ecstatic moments in the long path of earthly existence. I'm over 60 and I've been listening to Bruckner since I was only 18. Danke schon Meister Bruckner."

"18:54"


(My emphasis above.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on September 08, 2022, 03:15:10 AM
^The 1st is one of my favorite Bruckner symphonies. I'll have to give that recording a listen.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 08, 2022, 08:22:37 AM
Quote from: LKB on September 06, 2022, 12:41:34 PM
I owned HvK's EMI recordings of Symphonies 4 and 7 some years ago. I liked the Seventh more, but still prefer his analog DG version.

The EMI Fourth was frustrating for me. A great performance right up to the closing bars, where the principal trumpet apparently decided that he needed to play as loudly as possible, a glaring, ruinous distraction at the very end of the work.

So l'll stick with the Böhm/VPO 1973 Decca recording, which is practically perfect in every way.

That being said, HvK is generally still my preference for Bruckner, with Haitink a very close second.

Prompted by your comment I listened to the end of that performance which I have had for ages but couldn't say was given a frequent spin(!)  You're quite right - how very odd.  There's this image of HvK as the ultimate controller of texture and tone and blended orchestral balance.  I wonder why he 'allowed' this?  The much more interesting horn parts are obliterated......
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 12, 2022, 02:24:51 PM
Has anyone heard this recording?


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/WEBP_402378-T2/images/I/41Pn9pDPe5L._SX425_.jpg)



I assume that the conductor "Karl Richter" is the same as the organist.

It has one rave, albeit eccentric, review on Amazon.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on September 12, 2022, 06:21:03 PM
Quote from: Cato on September 12, 2022, 02:24:51 PM
Has anyone heard this recording?


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/WEBP_402378-T2/images/I/41Pn9pDPe5L._SX425_.jpg)



I assume that the conductor "Karl Richter" is the same as the organist.

It has one rave, albeit eccentric, review on Amazon.

The same Karl Richter who recorded a bunch of great Bach with his Münchener Bach-Orchester und -Chor? I didn't realize he performed anything else.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on September 12, 2022, 11:09:56 PM
It's the same organist/harpsichordist/conductor. Richter recorded also Händel, Haydn, CPE Bach, Beethoven's C major mass and I am pretty sure he conducted an even broader range music.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 13, 2022, 06:40:10 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 12, 2022, 11:09:56 PM
It's the same organist/harpsichordist/conductor. Richter recorded also Händel, Haydn, CPE Bach, Beethoven's C major mass and I am pretty sure he conducted an even broader range music.

DGG issued a set of nearly 100 CD's with his recordings: he died at 54 in 1981.

From Wikipedia:

Quote

...In 1971, Richter suffered a heart attack and thereafter suffered increasing problems with his vision. Consequently, he began to memorize as many works as he could before he might lose his sight. Eventually he had eye surgery, of which he was initially skeptical but which was effective.[7]

When asked about the energy-draining self-imposed burden of work he set himself, he would reply "My time is now" and "We Richters don't grow old."[1]

In the 1970s, as the period-instrument revival was burgeoning, according to Nicholas Anderson, "with the growing interest in historically aware performance ... Richter's values were questioned"[citation needed]. In a hotel in Munich in 1981 he suffered a fatal heart attack, and was buried in the Enzenbühl cemetery in Zürich eight days later....



Bruckner recordings are not mentioned in this article, but it does say that CD 93 offers him conducting the Haydn Symphonies 94 and 101.

I was able to find the recording of the Fourth Symphony and listened to it early this morning: it is an excellent performance which brings out nice details sometimes smothered in other recordings.  Richter knows how to milk the crescendos! 8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on September 13, 2022, 09:21:57 AM
I'd be interested to hear Richter's Bruckner. I trusted his Bach, decades ago, and he had standards as high as anyone's.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 13, 2022, 05:34:51 PM
Quote from: LKB on September 13, 2022, 09:21:57 AM
I'd be interested to hear Richter's Bruckner. I trusted his Bach, decades ago, and he had standards as high as anyone's.


e.g.


https://www.youtube.com/v/TGZkPsTtHkM



Hear a Bruckner motet under his baton:

https://www.youtube.com/v/SlkUehxT9L0


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 04, 2022, 01:34:27 PM
Another Karl, but with a "C" this time!   8)

Via the TESTAMENT label: a live 1964 recording with Carl Schuricht and the Berlin Philharmonic: one of the comments from a listener would easily start a rhubarb*!


"Schuricht drives the Berliner Philharmoniker with natural tone. If Karajan, Not.   :D


* "Rhubarb" in this context is American baseball slang for a big argument!



https://www.youtube.com/v/wSAbtjMeArg
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scion7 on November 20, 2022, 05:59:28 AM
When EMI issued the 1975-1980 series of recordings by Jochum/Staatskapell Dresden on vinyl, did anyone see a No.4 domestically? Outside of the badly packaged East German issues in the 80's, the only 'original' of that series I ever came across was a Japanese issue.  Granted, I came to these somewhat late and may have missed it.  The original EMI's all had Jochum on the cover in various locations.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scion7 on November 23, 2022, 08:05:11 PM
Listened to it again tonight.  Although not representative of his later style, I've always found this to be a cracking little ditty!  Anyone else love this work, and like this performance?

(https://i.postimg.cc/TP7wmTPZ/outer-Gatefold.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 24, 2022, 12:34:37 AM
Yes for sure - and I'm one of those superficial thrill-seekers ( ;) ) who just loves the sound of the CSO in this repertoire.  One of my great concert-going regrets is that I never saw the Chicago SO in their pomp with Dale Clevinger, Adolf Herseth et al.  This is a really interesting article about the evolution of the CSO brass sound;

https://cso.org/experience/article/3477/the-essence-of-the-cso-brass-sound-teamwork-a

Of course Solti often gets credited/blamed/dismissed (you choose!) for encouraging this on his many and various recordings with the orchestra.  The truth is of course he was just part of the evolution of this very specific style and musical approach.  I like both his Mahler and Bruckner cycles with Chicago even though these days its easy and popular to dismiss them as noise over substance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Scion7 on November 24, 2022, 03:39:06 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 24, 2022, 12:34:37 AM... even though these days its easy and popular to dismiss them as noise over substance.

Which is just so much rubbish.  His recording of Mahler's Song of the Earth is excellent, for example.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 24, 2022, 01:23:54 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on November 23, 2022, 08:05:11 PMListened to it again tonight.  Although not representative of his later style, I've always found this to be a cracking little ditty!  Anyone else love this work, and like this performance?

(https://i.postimg.cc/TP7wmTPZ/outer-Gatefold.jpg)

The Symphony #0 is an excellent work: I have told the story of hearing it live in a cathedral with the Toledo Symphony Orchestra under Stefan Sanderling.

They made the case that this was no practice symphony, but a symphony that was echt Bruckner!

Concerning the Symphony #4 by Eugen Jochum/Dresden from the 1970's on vinyl: I only know the performance from the CD set, which is top-rate!


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 24, 2022, 01:52:34 PM
Remember that Die Nullte was actually composed between No.1 and No.2. I like it, although I think it isn't quite as distinguished in its ideas and structure as No.1, so I understand why Bruckner 'nullified' it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 25, 2022, 07:17:23 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 24, 2022, 01:52:34 PMRemember that Die Nullte was actually composed between No.1 and No.2. I like it, although I think it isn't quite as distinguished in its ideas and structure as No.1, so I understand why Bruckner 'nullified' it.



Yes, it was not really #0, but is a fine work.  Agreed that #1 wins any comparison, nevertheless, "I like it" also!

Quote from: ultralinear on November 25, 2022, 01:02:57 AMI've heard it in concert a couple of times, in Dresden: one with Marc Minkowski conducting the Staatskapelle, the other Kitajenko and the Philharmonie.  Both took it more slowly than I'd prefer, which for Minkowski might have been explicable in terms of the Frauenkirche's long reverberation time, but less so for the even slower Kitajenko in the Kulturpalast. :-\


Are they perhaps influenced by the Celibidache Cult?   ;)   0:)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey Premiere of Latest Revision of Ninth FInale
Post by: Cato on November 28, 2022, 03:14:48 PM



The 2021-22 revision is to be premiered by the London Philharmonic Orchestra under Robin Ticciati, London, 30 November 2022.

Do any of our members who live in England plan on going to this?

Here is a MIDI version:

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 28, 2022, 08:37:39 PM
Interesting, Phillips was part of the team that did the performing edition that Rattle recorded. I think he disagreed that the last pages of the finale would have a counterpoint of the themes from all the movements, saying that this was an idea imported from the Eighth. However in the previous performing version this counterpoint occurs before the end, unlike the Eighth, whereas the Ninth in their version ends with other material.

Please correct this if I am wrong.  :)

Ps Phillips is an Australian!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on November 29, 2022, 03:16:38 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 28, 2022, 03:14:48 PMThe 2021-22 revision is to be premiered by the London Philharmonic Orchestra under Robin Ticciati, London, 30 November 2022.

Do any of our members who live in England plan on going to this?

Here is a MIDI version:

Not me. It's a workday and I probably wouldn't be able to get up to London in time, especially with the trains invariably on strike.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 29, 2022, 06:56:00 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 28, 2022, 03:14:48 PMThe 2021-22 revision is to be premiered by the London Philharmonic Orchestra under Robin Ticciati, London, 30 November 2022

Do any of our members who live in England plan on going to this?

Here is a MIDI version:
.







Quote from: ultralinear on November 29, 2022, 12:36:16 AMYes. (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,429.msg1483405.html#msg1483405)  :)






Great!  Please write a review for us!  8)


Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 28, 2022, 08:37:39 PMInteresting, Phillips was part of the team that did the performing edition that Rattle recorded. I think he disagreed that the last pages of the finale would have a counterpoint of the themes from all the movements, saying that this was an idea imported from the Eighth. However in the previous performing version this counterpoint occurs before the end, unlike the Eighth, whereas the Ninth in their version ends with other material.

Please correct this if I am wrong.  :)

Ps Phillips is an Australian!



Yes, he is!

I believe your summary of the situation is correct: Professor Phillips explains everything in an essay with his revised performing version.

I found the program notes for tomorrow's concert online: here is a salient excerpt...

Quote


"...We can now reconstruct the coda even more accurately.

A mysteriously circling ascent led into the final chorale
statement for which we have both the allusion in the
reprise as well as a late sketch. Three remarkable drafts,
dated May 1896, for the rest of the coda are now
included in their entirety, the restored passage allowing
the themes of first movement and Finale to combine in
symbolic demonstration of the underlying unity of the
whole work. This culminates in a terrifyingly dissonant
passage before conclusively cadencing into the 'Glory'
of D major: Salvation.


Bruckner stated that he would introduce here 'with great
power' a theme prefigured in an earlier movement, an
'Alleluja [...], in order that the symphony end with a hymn
of praise to the dear Lord'. This can be convincingly
identified as the D major entry of the trumpets at bar 5
of the Adagio; numerous clues suggest how Bruckner
would have transformed it into his concluding 'hymn of
praise'.
Programme notes by Professor John Phillips...




See: (Scroll down to download the PDF file)

https://lpo.org.uk/event/bruckners-ninth/ (https://lpo.org.uk/event/bruckners-ninth/)


And this version of the MIDI score has an essay about this revision at the One Second mark!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 29, 2022, 07:14:51 AM
Apparently there is no streaming possibility of tomorrow's London Philharmonic/Bruckner 9th concert, outside of subscribing for $90.00 per year    :o    to "Marquee TV." 

Or at least I cannot find it on the website.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 29, 2022, 03:18:41 PM
Quote from: ultralinear on November 29, 2022, 09:19:29 AMNor I. :(  The BBC have no reference to it, although I suppose it's possible they may record it for future broadcast/streaming.  Or that the LPO may record it for their own label.  However it's sometimes astonishing to see the material they choose not to record. :o   E.g Jurowski's Bruckner concerts -  he's excellent in Bruckner, ahead (IMO) of many self-styled Brucknerians - but you'd never know it unless you'd been there. ::)

Currently attuning my ears to the material with 3 canonical versions of the SPCM Finale from different stages of its evolution:  Rozhdestvensky (1986), Wildner (1996) and Rattle (2012). :)

Many thanks for the BBC etc. comment!  Yes, all have their moments!  We shall hear what this latest offering does with the manuscript pages.


The Bruckner Journal has this longer essay by John Phillips on the Finale completion of the Ninth Symphony.



https://brucknerjournal.com/resources/phillips-b9-finale/ewExternalFiles/Phillips%20B9%20FinaleRev-ed.pdf (https://brucknerjournal.com/resources/phillips-b9-finale/ewExternalFiles/Phillips%20B9%20FinaleRev-ed.pdf)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 29, 2022, 04:43:56 PM
Quote from: Cato on November 29, 2022, 03:18:41 PMThe Bruckner Journal has this longer essay by John Phillips on the Finale completion of the Ninth Symphony.



https://brucknerjournal.com/resources/phillips-b9-finale/ewExternalFiles/Phillips%20B9%20FinaleRev-ed.pdf (https://brucknerjournal.com/resources/phillips-b9-finale/ewExternalFiles/Phillips%20B9%20FinaleRev-ed.pdf)

Excellent, thanks!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: krummholz on November 30, 2022, 03:18:48 AM
The only version I've heard of the Finale was the 2012 SPCM performing version, in a rather stiff performance conducted by Kurt Eichhorn. I think it's amazing that more sketches have come to light since then and that they've managed to further reconstruct Bruckner's craggy Coda. I only hope a worthy performance of this version gets commercially recorded at some point (hopefully, soon!).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 30, 2022, 07:26:04 AM
Quote from: krummholz on November 30, 2022, 03:18:48 AMThe only version I've heard of the Finale was the 2012 SPCM performing version...


There are others: I think conductor Gerd Schaller tried his hand at it.


Musicologist William Carragan, who is "Vice President of the Bruckner Society of America," has offered his version of the Finale.

He occasionally comments on a Bruckner FaceBook page: let's just say that the he and the quartet of musicologists that includes John Phillips do not agree on much of anything!  ;)

Two YouTube commenters write:

Quote


"Nearly everything from 18:38 until the end is made up by the editor."


"And a lot before that too! The orchestration and polyphonic voicing is extremely un-Bruckner in the sections which still bear resemblance to the original...... it's careering around between Bruckner and a kind of Shostakovician-Mahlerian overlay with excursions into other anachronistic styles in a very haphazard way. And that cadence at 16.32 is about the most UN Bruckner way of doing things I could imagine! Jeez............ Thanks massively to the uploader, but it seems that the Carragan finale is a dead loss. Has he ever listened to Bruckner? :) This is a complete travesty. "Vice President of the Bruckner Society of America" Eeeeeeeek"


After following this debate for 30 + years, I tend to trust the work done by the quartet, and the essays by John Phillips on his recent revisions of their work also seem convincing.

Quote from: krummholz on November 30, 2022, 03:18:48 AM I think it's amazing that more sketches have come to light since then and that they've managed to further reconstruct Bruckner's craggy Coda.


Yes, it is amazing!  I keep hoping that somebody in Vienna will open up great-great-grandpa's trunk in the attic and there will be the remaining sketches taken during the "chaos" (as described by Bruckner's physician) that occurred in Bruckner's room right after his death.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 30, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on November 30, 2022, 07:51:28 AMIn his TBJ article Phillips observes in passing that they know where some of the missing manuscript pages are but haven't had access to them.

Yes, what a disgrace, imagine owing an important musical MS and not letting anyone see it, what's the point of having it?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 30, 2022, 05:10:20 PM
Quote from: ultralinear on November 30, 2022, 02:02:54 PMNope - not a sign of any recording equipment. :(  I guess whoever decides these things must have judged it of insufficiently broad appeal - which may have been right, in view of the turnout: not much more than half full, and at least half of those well into the 70+ bracket.  This appears to be the new normal. ::)

What I hadn't expected was the couple of dozen who got up and left at the end of the Adagio.
:o  ;D

Disappointing about the recording (seemingly) not getting done.

And those who left without giving the Finale a chance...  Oy!  "Purists!"  Whaddaya gonna do?   8)

SO what did you think of the concert and the "new and improved" Finale?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 01, 2022, 05:53:12 PM
Quote from: ultralinear on December 01, 2022, 01:49:18 AMI thought the performance as a whole worked very well, and made a convincing case for the symphony as a 4-movement work. ...

Overall, a very good performance. That left me feeling Yes that's how I want the 9th Symphony to sound.  Not leaving before I've heard the Finale.  I shall feel short-changed if in future I don't get one. ;D


That is high praise!  And after reading the notes by Professor Phillips, he seemed to think along the very same lines.  It is a symphony designed to have 4 movements, and we have been somewhat conditioned to accept it as a 3-movement whole.

But obviously Bruckner's conception was for a 4-movement whole!  And it is on that basis that the purists fail to convince me to be satisfied with 3 movements.  If only 5 pages of score existed, well then, yes, we would need to sigh and accept the work as incomplete.

But with so much completed...no!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 02, 2022, 01:21:45 PM
Quote from: ultralinear on December 02, 2022, 04:35:03 AMwhich just goes to show the relative importance of interpretation over edition

Couldn't agree less, nor do I agreed that Bruckner truly approved of later revisions he was made to make by 'friends' playing on his insecurities. The Phillips' article linked to above shows that Bruckner could easily have finished the Ninth before extreme ill-health overtook him if he hadn't had to waste his time making unnecessary revisions to earlier symphonies.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 05, 2022, 09:50:15 AM
I wrote recently to Prof. John Phillips, whose completion of the Fourth Movement of the Symphony #9 was performed last week in London (q.v. above).  He was part of the quartet of musicologists who worked on a completion some years ago.  Given some new information since then, Prof. Phillips decided to revise his group's completion.

My question dealt with parts of the sketches still in private hands somewhere and not being released to musicologists.

His response to the question and on the concert:

Quote

The enthusiastic reception of the first performance by the LPO here in London a few nights ago was very encouraging, and I really do believe we have the fugue and coda right now. Just so much misinformation about the movement, and so many blatantly bad completions by others bringing the whole issue into disrepute. 20 years of work by 4 experts, not to mention two PhDs went into the SPCM score.

As regards your question: sadly, that may very well be the case.

I have a photocopy of a sketch (not a missing score bifolio, alas) that is (or should be) part of the A-Wn Mus. Hs. 3194 set, which are Bruckner's initial particello sketches for the movement, but I'm not at liberty to disclose its origin, or to state whether or not the owner may have other pages. Very sad situation. Nicholas Harnoncourt, in his performance and recording of my "Dokumentation des Fragments" in 1999, implored people to look in their old aunty's attic. How wonderful it would be if such person(s), one day, just did the right thing for everyone, and anonymously made their MSS available. Eheu!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 08, 2022, 07:58:30 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 05, 2022, 09:50:15 AMI wrote recently to Prof. John Phillips, whose completion of the Fourth Movement of the Symphony #9 was performed last week in London (q.v. above).  He was part of the quartet of musicologists who worked on a completion some years ago.  Given some new information since then, Prof. Phillips decided to revise his group's completion.

My question dealt with parts of the sketches still in private hands somewhere and not being released to musicologists.

His response to the question and on the concert:


Prompted by your post I finally - pun intended - listened to the Harnoncourt fragments lecture disc Prof Phillips refers to.  I found it absolutely fascinating especially since it makes a point of playing only and exactly what Bruckner "left" incomplete.  It certainly is quite different/more questing than anything else he wrote - a genuinely challenging and rewarding discussion...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 12, 2022, 09:59:48 AM
This came up under a different topic: Carl Schuricht conducting the 3-movement Ninth Symphony.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 18, 2022, 04:33:06 AM
Yesterday while negotiating a very cold/long drive to Stratford upon Avon to play a Messiah in the church where Shakespeare is buried I listened to a recent 99p charity shop purchase;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/418UJBAaG8L._SY580_.jpg)

Obviously not exactly ideal listening conditions(!) but goodness me what a performance.  About as far removed from a spiritual/"inner" Bruckner experience as you could imagine.  Bruckner red in tooth and claw.  I can imagine that in the concert hall this was a thrilling performance to witness.  The LPO - especially the brass - just blaze.  Perhaps not the only Bruckner 8 you'd ever want to know but certainly one to clear the sinuses literal and metaphorical.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on December 18, 2022, 06:27:07 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 18, 2022, 04:33:06 AMYesterday while negotiating a very cold/long drive to Stratford upon Avon to play a Messiah in the church where Shakespeare is buried I listened to a recent 99p charity shop purchase;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/418UJBAaG8L._SY580_.jpg)

Obviously not exactly ideal listening conditions(!) but goodness me what a performance.  About as far removed from a spiritual/"inner" Bruckner experience as you could imagine.  Bruckner red in tooth and claw.  I can imagine that in the concert hall this was a thrilling performance to witness.  The LPO - especially the brass - just blaze.  Perhaps not the only Bruckner 8 you'd ever want to know but certainly one to clear the sinuses literal and metaphorical.

From your description, this might resemble Barbirolli's live recording...

https://youtu.be/RHJrEfw6k4U
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 18, 2022, 09:12:12 AM
Quote from: LKB on December 18, 2022, 06:27:07 AMFrom your description, this might resemble Barbirolli's live recording...

https://youtu.be/RHJrEfw6k4U

Thankyou - I'll have a listen to that for sure.  My only "concern" is that the LPO play very well for Tennstadt but the Halle even in Barbirolli's pomp was not a top notch orchestra even by the standards of their time.  Not sure I want to hear rough-and-ready-but-blazing Bruckner!  But I shouldn't pre-judge so I will have a listen - thanks for the link.....
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 19, 2022, 04:33:21 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 18, 2022, 04:33:06 AM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/418UJBAaG8L._SY580_.jpg)

Obviously not exactly ideal listening conditions(!) but goodness me what a performance.  About as far removed from a spiritual/"inner" Bruckner experience as you could imagine.  Bruckner red in tooth and claw.  I can imagine that in the concert hall this was a thrilling performance to witness.  The LPO - especially the brass - just blaze.  Perhaps not the only Bruckner 8 you'd ever want to know but certainly one to clear the sinuses literal and metaphorical.


Is this the same recording?  Amazon seems to claim that they are, just different album covers.  The Berliners for #4 and then (perhaps) the same recording of #8 with the LPO.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/719ms2avP2L._SL1300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on December 19, 2022, 05:22:09 PM
Quote from: Cato on December 19, 2022, 04:33:21 PMIs this the same recording?  Amazon seems to claim that they are, just different album covers.  The Berliners for #4 and then (perhaps) the same recording of #8 with the LPO.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/719ms2avP2L._SL1300_.jpg)

I'm under the impression that the LPO private label releases such as this are in concert performances done around the time of studio performances recorded by EMI.

ETA
Timings differ but only by small amounts that could represent the audio engineers picking different start/stop points on the tape. But the LPO label version is definitely a live recording.
Overall difference is less than half a minute.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51apdep1SjL._SY350_DpWeblab_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51cf6bri4wL._SY780_DpWeblab_.jpg)

ETA 2
If they are the same performance, wouldn't the copyright show EMI licensing from LPO/BBC or vice versa?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 19, 2022, 10:56:26 PM
Quote from: JBS on December 19, 2022, 05:22:09 PMI'm under the impression that the LPO private label releases such as this are in concert performances done around the time of studio performances recorded by EMI.

ETA
Timings differ but only by small amounts that could represent the audio engineers picking different start/stop points on the tape. But the LPO label version is definitely a live recording.
Overall difference is less than half a minute.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51apdep1SjL._SY350_DpWeblab_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51cf6bri4wL._SY780_DpWeblab_.jpg)

ETA 2
If they are the same performance, wouldn't the copyright show EMI licensing from LPO/BBC or vice versa?

You are quite right to the bolded text above.  This is a different performance from the EMI studio version but from around the same time.  Tennstedt was one of those conductors who "came alive" with an audience - and more to the point the orchestra went with him.....
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Linz on December 21, 2022, 09:18:14 AM
On abruckner.com The EMI recording was a different performance from the London BBC performance
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 30, 2022, 04:35:40 AM
Bruckner and Mahler by H. F. Redlich was part of a series of biographies-cum-musical analyses called The Master Musicians, edited by Eric Blom and published in England by J.M. Dent.

Bruckner and Mahler, published in 1955, I read nearly 60 years ago via the Dayton Public Library.  So it was not even 10 years old back then.

Last week I came across a copy in Van Wert, Ohio in an antique shop, complete with a sticker saying "DENT BOOKS - NET  11/6."  Another sticker had "FOYLES BOOKS, Charing Cross Road, London WC 2".

How on earth it landed in Van Wert would be an interesting story!

Anyway, I thought those details might interest our members on Britannia!

When I first read the book, the Freudian analysis of Bruckner's eccentric behavior did not register, as I was too naive (not too young) at the time about such matters.

e.g. in contrasting Bruckner's religious attachment to the Catholic Church versus his "innumerable affairs of the heart," Redlich offers us this:

((My emphasis below)

"
Quote...his is a case of sexual inferiority complex, in need of powerful compensatory satisfactions.  Indeed, the peculiarities of Bruckner's psychology and the entanglements of his emotional life can all be traced back to that cause..."




Really?  As I used to tell my History students, beware of reductionism!  Certainly other factors can be invoked, e.g. the too early death of his father, the atmosphere of sophisticated urbanites versus country bumpkins, etc.

Anyway, the book is nevertheless valuable, despite its use of Freudianism, for which we cannot blame Herr Redlich, as Freud's theories dominated the curious field of Psychology/Psychiatry at the time.

I will report later on the book's musical exegesis.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 07, 2023, 12:28:32 PM
From group who restores classic recordings:

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 17, 2023, 03:13:12 AM
A few more comments from the 1955 book Bruckner and Mahler by H. F. Redlich.   (See my earlier comments above.)

The author is a fan of the Symphony #0:

Quote

"Surely the best proof for the true value of this neglected Symphony #0 must lie in the fact that its first theme...supplied the thematic underlay for the glorious trumpet theme of Symphony III..."


He also asserts that Bruckner quoted parts of the #0 in the Sixth Symphony (which work he finds somewhat unsatisfactory) and in the E minor Mass.

Like others, the author sees the Symphony #9 as a bridge not just to Mahler, and specifically Mahler's late symphonic style, but also to Arnold Schoenberg.

And...I mentioned this above:

Quote

"...his is a case of sexual inferiority complex, in need of powerful compensatory satisfactions.  Indeed, the peculiarities of Bruckner's psychology and the entanglements of his emotional life can all be traced back to that cause.."


He continues along that Freudian line with several more such comments.

On the other hand, he credits Bruckner with the resurrection of the grand symphonic style, which Wagner had declared dead, buried, and extinct.  The symphonies of Brahms with their "serenade-like" character and "restricted romantic" style hearkening back to Mendelssohn and Schumann were easy for audiences to accept.

Bruckner's symphonies, therefore, appeared "like anachronistic monstrosities," yet students and others heard something new and exciting.

I recall reading that Richard Strauss referred to Brahms as "an old pundit."  Too harsh, and Brahms still has his audience today.  However, personally I do find his "restricted romantic type" of symphony less fulfilling than Bruckner's.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 18, 2023, 10:28:15 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on January 18, 2023, 04:43:03 AMWhile emptying a room last week that I've used as a store for the past 20 years, in amongst all the boxes of books I discovered ... not one but two copies of Robert Simpson's irreplaceable The Essence of Bruckner (for years my go-to guide to all things Brucknerian)
Although I am a great fan of Robert Simpson it is important to remember that the edition of his Bruckner book that is widespread in libraries &c was written in the early 1960s before the issue of Bruckner's revisions was widely aired. Simpson rewrote this book for the 1993 edition (published by Gollancz in the UK), but this was not as widely circulated or read as the earlier edition and is difficult to come by. However it is the edition that best ventilates the edition issue and I recommend it, rather than the earlier version (oh the irony, for Bruckner listen to the earliest version (generally), with the Simpson book read the revised version!).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 18, 2023, 05:00:16 PM
Quote from: ultralinear on January 18, 2023, 04:43:03 AM- and I really do not remember buying it, let alone ever trying to read it - this 1947 study by one of Schoenberg's pupils, which looks a little forbidding but the premise is intriguing so I think I might give it a go. :-\  :)


It is an intriguing book!  Dika Newlin was a child prodigy, brought to Schoenberg c. age 10, and she almost instantly annoyed him with her perfect pitch and other abilities!  ;)

However, she is also an example of the child prodigy whose promise was not quite matched (depending on your point of view) by the results of her later life.

As a professor of music, she certainly had some valuable accomplishments.  As a creative artist, things did not work out for the best, and her eccentricities in later life seemed to prevent success at that point...unless becoming a 60-something punk rocker is considered an accomplishment, to which (again) some might say "Yes, it is!"  8)

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0233572/ (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0233572/)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mahlerbruck on January 23, 2023, 10:37:18 AM
My first ever Recording/CD i have heard of music of Anton Bruckner was Symphony no. 5 conducted by Eugene Ormandy and Philadelphia Orchestra.

Now i have heard more Symphony no.5 with other conductors and Orchestra's it is not my favourite or best performance. But i still like it!

What is your opinion about this performance of Eugene Ormandy.

(https://i.postimg.cc/GmQhSywV/R-11211838-1603186718-5622.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 23, 2023, 12:49:06 PM
Quote from: Mahlerbruck on January 23, 2023, 10:37:18 AMMy first ever Recording/CD i have heard of music of Anton Bruckner was Symphony no. 5 conducted by Eugene Ormandy and Philadelphia Orchestra.

Now i have heard more Symphony no.5 with other conductors and Orchestra's it is not my favourite or best performance. But i still like it!

What is your opinion about this performance of Eugene Ormandy.

(https://i.postimg.cc/GmQhSywV/R-11211838-1603186718-5622.jpg)

I'm a big fan of Ormandy/Philadelphia recordings but NOT of this particular disc.  Well played of course but somehow rather superficial - one of my least favourite Ormandy discs of all - sorry!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on February 04, 2023, 02:53:47 PM
Quote from: Daverz on September 02, 2022, 05:58:59 PMBrucknerthon XXIV playlist:

- Overture in G minor: Hager/SWF Symphony Orchestra (Amati CD, 1988)

- Symphony 1: Järvi/Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra (RCA SACD, 2013)

- Symphony 0: Poschner/Linz Bruckner Orchestra (Capriccio CD, 2021)

- Symphony 2: Zender/SWF Symphony Orchestra (Amati CD, 1990)

- Symphony 3: Asahina/New Japan Philharmonic Orchestra (Fontec/Tower Records SACD, 1996)

- Symphony 4: Dohnányi/Philharmonia Orchestra (Signum CD, 2008)

- Symphony 5: Haitink/Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (BPO Blu-ray Audio, 2011)

- Symphony 6: Blomstedt/Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra (Querstand SACD, 2008)

- Symphony 7: Schuricht/Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Testament CD, 1964)

- Symphony 8: Kubelik/Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra (Altus CD, 1965)

- Symphony 9: Skrowaczewski/Minnesota Orchestra (Reference Recordings CD, 1996)

Missed this last fall. Thanks for posting!

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on February 04, 2023, 03:03:46 PM
I'm seeing a lot of highly positive reviews on this recording with Markus Poschner and the Bruckner Orchester Linz. If anyone has heard it, would be eager for comments.

Gramophone review here (https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/bruckner-symphony-no-8-poschner#:~:text=The%20Scherzo%20is%20thrilling%20at,immediately%20afterwards%20is%20deeply%20eloquent.).

(https://reviews.azureedge.net/gramophone/media-thumbnails/C8081.jfif)

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on February 05, 2023, 06:14:07 AM
Quote from: brewski on February 04, 2023, 03:03:46 PMI'm seeing a lot of highly positive reviews on this recording with Markus Poschner and the Bruckner Orchester Linz. If anyone has heard it, would be eager for comments.

Gramophone review here (https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/bruckner-symphony-no-8-poschner#:~:text=The%20Scherzo%20is%20thrilling%20at,immediately%20afterwards%20is%20deeply%20eloquent.).

(https://reviews.azureedge.net/gramophone/media-thumbnails/C8081.jfif)

-Bruce

Thanks for that link, now I've something to do for the next couple of  days.  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 16, 2023, 03:29:08 PM
Somehow this ended up as a separate topic!  I could not discover how to delete it, so it is locked.

This popped up recently: Bruckner as Musical Therapy!


Quote

"...Apart from his profound love for and knowledge of Bruckner's music, Dr. Laczika has strong ideas about the relationship between music and medicine. In his own practice in Vienna he often uses music in therapy, basing his work on the idea that the natural rhythms of classical music — as opposed to those of computerised music — match, on a fundamental level, the rhythms of the human body. Bruckner's almost obsessive preference for strict numerical order corresponds closely with this idea...."




See:

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: String Quintet or Symphony?
Post by: Cato on February 20, 2023, 06:26:05 AM
Earlier I mentioned that I was revisiting Bruckner and Mahler, a book from 1955, by Hans Redlich.

I thought this passage about the String Quintet might interest people:

After writing that it would be a "gross exaggeration" to say that the work is a "symphony in disguise," Professor Redlich provide a description of sections which prove the opposite!

(from page 94)

"...(The quintet) is an attempt to adjust Bruckner's symphonic style to the requirements of an uncongenial medium.  This is borne out by a comparison of between its four movements and the movements in his symphonies.

The happiest balance is struck in the serenely beautiful Adagio, one of Bruckner's supreme inspirations....the grandeur of this mainly subdued movement becomes apparent at its fff climax, which transgresses the limitations of sonority imposed on chamber music and cries out for translation into majestic sound. 

A passage such as this clearly indicates that Bruckner could not keep for long within the boundaries of this restricted medium.  That he was chafing under this restriction is shown even more clearly by the Scherzo.
This ferocious and and dissonant piece, one of Bruckner's least grateful middle movements, shows an indisputable element of strain...

...All in all, here is plenty of evidence for Bruckner's comparative failure to provide the chosen medium with a really satisfactory work of intimate sonorities.


So, "symphony in disguise" or "failure as a string quintet" or...?  :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 20, 2023, 10:58:32 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 20, 2023, 06:26:05 AMEarlier I mentioned that I was revisiting Bruckner and Mahler, a book from 1955, by Hans Redlich.

I thought this passage about the String Quartet might interest people:

After writing that it would be a "gross exaggeration" to say that the work is a "symphony in disguise," Professor Redlich provide a description of sections which prove the opposite!

(from page 94)

"...(The quartet) is an attempt to adjust Bruckner's symphonic style to the requirements of an uncongenial medium.  This is borne out by a comparison of between its four movements and the movements in his symphonies.

The happiest balance is struck in the serenely beautiful Adagio, one of Bruckner's supreme inspirations....the grandeur of this mainly subdued movement becomes apparent at its fff climax, which transgresses the limitations of sonority imposed on chamber music and cries out for translation into majestic sound. 

A passage such as this clearly indicates that Bruckner could not keep for long within the boundaries of this restricted medium.  That he was chafing under this restriction is shown even more clearly by the Scherzo.
This ferocious and and dissonant piece, one of Bruckner's least grateful middle movements, shows an indisputable element of strain...

...All in all, here is plenty of evidence for Bruckner's comparative failure to provide the chosen medium with a really satisfactory work of intimate sonorities.
"   

So, "symphony in disguise" or "failure as a string quartet" or...?   :D

Is he talking about the String Quintet?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 20, 2023, 11:57:02 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 20, 2023, 10:58:32 AMIs he talking about the String Quintet?


Ach yes!  I mistyped!!! 

Quote from: ultralinear on February 20, 2023, 11:30:00 AMI wondered that.  But the Adagio as a "mainly subdued movement"?  And the Scherzo as "one of Bruckner's least graceful grateful middle movements"?  Surely not.


Unfortunately yes! 

I must admit: I am not sure what was meant by "least grateful movements."  I assume Professor Redlich (the book is in English, no translator is mentioned) meant that he found the movement "(least) pleasant," as "pleasant" is an older meaning of "grateful."



And if you are wondering about the "frustrated" symphony for orchestra idea, here is Gerd Schaller's solution:

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 20, 2023, 02:44:11 PM
Quote from: ultralinear on February 20, 2023, 01:36:27 PMAh, I assumed "grateful" had to be a typo - my bad. :(
 

By no means!  After I had typed "quartet" for "quintet," your assumption was warranted!  ;)

444
Quote from: ultralinear on February 20, 2023, 01:36:27 PMIf the argument is that the Quintet is best seen as a symphonie manqué then I can see the attractions of that, but I happen to think that it's mistaken.  None of the orchestrations I've heard seem to me to add anything.

 

Yes: I like a string orchestra version, but the one above...?

I will listen to it again tomorrow!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 20, 2023, 07:08:45 PM
I think Bruckner, despite the fact that he lived with the sound of the orchestra in his head presumably, managed with the Quintet to write a brilliant piece of chamber music. There isn't anywhere in the work that most obnoxious musical sound: a string quartet or quintet scrubbing away furiously trying to be a full orchestra; whereas in the chamber works of other composers...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on February 21, 2023, 12:07:54 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 20, 2023, 07:08:45 PMI think Bruckner, despite the fact that he lived with the sound of the orchestra in his head presumably, managed with the Quintet to write a brilliant piece of chamber music. There isn't anywhere in the work that most obnoxious musical sound: a string quartet or quintet scrubbing away furiously trying to be a full orchestra; whereas in the chamber works of other composers...
I agree with this but I think that what you describe is fortunately quite rare among great composers. I can think mainly of two string quartets that commit this sin to a certain extent (although I think they are both interesting enough to forgive it), Grieg's and Franck's.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 21, 2023, 01:44:17 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 21, 2023, 12:07:54 AMI agree with this but I think that what you describe is fortunately quite rare among great composers. I can think mainly of two string quartets that commit this sin to a certain extent (although I think they are both interesting enough to forgive it), Grieg's and Franck's.

Funnily enough those were two on my list, I have a couple of other suspects...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 24, 2023, 04:12:58 AM
Oh my!  It has been decades since I have listened to this marvelous choral work!




The piece evokes an echoing mountainous landscape after sunset:

Evening Magic (Abendzauber) by Heinrich von der Mattig Music by Anton Bruckner

Der See träumt zwischen Felsen,
Es flüstert sanft der Hain.
Den Bergeshang beleuchtet
Des Mondes Silberschein.

Und aus dem Waldesdunkel
Hallt Nachtigallensang,
Und von dem See weh'n Lieder
Mit zauberhaftem Klang.

Ich saß am Seegestade,
Vertieft in süßen Traum;
Da träumte ich zu schweben
Empor zum Himmelsraum.

Wer könnte je vergessen
Den wonnevollen Ort!
Noch tief im Herzen klingen
Die Zaubertöne fort.


The lake dreams between rocks,
The forest whispers gently.
The mountain slope is lit
By the silvery light of the moon.

From the darkness of the forest,
Sounds the song of the nightingale,
And from the lake, songs float
With enchanting sound.

I sat at the lakeshore,
Lost in sweet dream;
I dreamed to hover
Aloft to Heaven's realm.

Who could ever forget
This delightful place!
Deep in my heart
The enchanting tones still sound.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 25, 2023, 03:08:24 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 24, 2023, 04:12:58 AMOh my!  It has been decades since I have listened to this marvelous choral work!




The piece evokes an echoing mountainous landscape after sunset:

Evening Magic (Abendzauber) by Heinrich von der Mattig Music by Anton Bruckner

Der See träumt zwischen Felsen,
Es flüstert sanft der Hain.
Den Bergeshang beleuchtet
Des Mondes Silberschein.

Und aus dem Waldesdunkel
Hallt Nachtigallensang,
Und von dem See weh'n Lieder
Mit zauberhaftem Klang.

Ich saß am Seegestade,
Vertieft in süßen Traum;
Da träumte ich zu schweben
Empor zum Himmelsraum.

Wer könnte je vergessen
Den wonnevollen Ort!
Noch tief im Herzen klingen
Die Zaubertöne fort.


The lake dreams between rocks,
The forest whispers gently.
The mountain slope is lit
By the silvery light of the moon.

From the darkness of the forest,
Sounds the song of the nightingale,
And from the lake, songs float
With enchanting sound.

I sat at the lakeshore,
Lost in sweet dream;
I dreamed to hover
Aloft to Heaven's realm.

Who could ever forget
This delightful place!
Deep in my heart
The enchanting tones still sound.

For those who want more choral works by Bruckner, here are 5 short ones:

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 26, 2023, 01:33:07 PM
Hey, quick query, I've heard about the conductor (or conductors) who halve the tempo of the music in the finale of the Fifth when the chorale re-enters. I haven't got a recording where this happens and I haven't found one on YouTube (though I haven't searched exhaustively. Anyone care to name names?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 27, 2023, 04:00:46 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 26, 2023, 01:33:07 PMHey, quick query, I've heard about the conductor (or conductors) who halve the tempo of the music in the finale of the Fifth when the chorale re-enters. I haven't got a recording where this happens and I haven't found one on YouTube (though I haven't searched exhaustively. Anyone care to name names?


Eugen Jochum on his DGG recording is your man: I recall one musicologist (his name escapes me) complaining greatly about that halving: he insisted that, if anything, a faster tempo is warranted!

You can find it here:

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 27, 2023, 04:05:45 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 27, 2023, 04:00:46 PMEugen Jochum on his DGG recording is your man: I recall one musicologist (his name escapes me) complaining greatly about that halving: he insisted that, if anything, a faster tempo is warranted!

You can find it here:


Thanks  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Linz on March 02, 2023, 10:07:18 AM
Haitink really slows down the tempo of the fifth's finally in this recording
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 02, 2023, 12:22:38 PM
Quote from: Linz on March 02, 2023, 10:07:18 AMHaitink really slows down the tempo of the fifth's finally in this recording

But that's the whole finale (he said, suspecting auto-correct), not just the final few bars?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on March 03, 2023, 06:55:35 AM
For the most part, people exaggerate when they refer to this broadening of the tempo. It isn't " half- tempo ", more like 75%.

Haitink does it on his recording with the VPO and the one referenced above. Von Karajan didn't, and I've personally preferred that approach.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Bruckner's Influence on the Tenth Symphony of Mahler
Post by: Cato on March 09, 2023, 11:24:33 AM


I have mentioned that I came across Bruckner and Mahler by Professor H.F. Redlich, a comparative biography and comparative analysis of their works (up to a point) written about 70 years ago.

I am sure that he was not the first one to notice the parallel between the main theme of the Adagio of Bruckner's Symphony #9 and the main theme (NOT the opening "motto" in the  Violas) for the First Movement in Mahler's Symphony #10.

Bruckner:

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.pq-3ndWI0dLhLjBmtYOxRQHaBg%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=ee20e87756aed2de8d1228bfb8bf4024fb6ce4dd45112c4cc2ad8555966df6cc&ipo=images)

Mahler: bar 16 ff. Adagio

(https://www.ariaeditions.org/uploads/2/8/3/1/28310183/s618144978214657297_p422_i34_w640.jpeg)


Certainly they are different enough that they cannot be confused.

Whether Mahler consciously or unconsciously used Bruckner's Ninth Symphony as a model...who knows?

Professor Redlich writes:
Quote"...this deeply moving, abjectly melancholy, hopelessly nostalgic movement, with its beauty almost visibly turning to ashes, could not have come into being without the coda of (the last movement of) Das Lied von der Erde, without the two outer movements of Symphony IX and indeed with the Adagio of Bruckner's own incomplete Symphony IX, which acted as a kind of model for the wide skips and the fiery trombone-background of the movement's main subject...

(See examples above)

The movement starts with a long...solo for the Viola...which in turn becomes the 'lighter' contrast group, recalling the manner in which Bruckner alternates between his 3-4 contrast subject and the main chorale subject in the Adagio of his Symphony VII.

The latter (i.e. Bruckner's Symphony VII) might also be regarded as one of Mahler's (un)conscious models for the Adagio of the Symphony X..."


The above comes from p.p. 230-231.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on March 09, 2023, 10:50:16 PM
Got home about thirty minutes ago from the Vienna Philharmonic performing the Eighth, Thielmann conducting.

The orchestra was in very good form, richly balanced and blended. l was particularly impressed with the violins, basses, horns and woodwinds.

A very impressive and persuasive reading, though Thielmann still needlessly pushes the tempo in a few places.

Tonight's encore was Josef Strauss's Sphärenklänge, and it was perfect.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 10, 2023, 02:13:18 PM
Quote from: LKB on March 09, 2023, 10:50:16 PMGot home about thirty minutes ago from the Vienna Philharmonic performing the Eighth, Thielmann conducting.

The orchestra was in very good form, richly balanced and blended. l was particularly impressed with the violins, basses, horns and woodwinds.

A very impressive and persuasive reading, though Thielmann still needlessly pushes the tempo in a few places.

Tonight's encore was Josef Strauss's Sphärenklänge, and it was perfect.


Excellent opportunity to hear them at Carnegie Hall! 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 14, 2023, 10:23:25 AM
A FaceBook Bruckner fan recommends this as the best Te Deum performance ever!


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on March 14, 2023, 01:14:54 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 10, 2023, 02:13:18 PMExcellent opportunity to hear them at Carnegie Hall! 

I wish l had, Thursday night's concert was in Berkeley, CA.  ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 14, 2023, 05:05:14 PM
Quote from: LKB on March 14, 2023, 01:14:54 PMI wish l had, Thursday night's concert was in Berkeley, CA.  ::)

Oh!  I checked the travel schedule and thought you must have been in NYC!   :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 20, 2023, 01:16:50 PM
It has been too long since I took some time to check The Bruckner Journal, the successor to Chord and Discord, which was being edited by Jack Diether when I started reading it in the 1960's.

I came across this article in the archives of The Bruckner Journal: a Unitarian minister (from Scotland or Australia?) speaking on Bruckner's mysticism.

Quote
This is the (slightly edited) text of an address given at Blackpool Unitarian Church on 5th October 2014 by Dr Martin Pulbrook, Lay Minister of that church. During the Service recordings were played of Aequale No. 1 for 3 trombones, (Hamburg, 2000), Locus iste (NDR Choir, Hamburg, 2000), and the first 5¼ minutes of the Adagio of Furtwängler's 1944 performance of the Ninth Symphony.


                            The Mystical Genius of Anton Bruckner

IMAGINE you faced the question: "Who, in your view, are the most important people who ever lived?" For me,
inevitably, the choice, for one of the available positions, would be made in favour of Anton Bruckner. He was a rare spiritual master, not only a musical composer but also a Christian mystic of the very highest order. Briefly, let me try to explain the reasons for the choice.

Bruckner was a most traditional child of the Catholic Church. Born and brought up in the Catholic heartland of Upper Austria, Bruckner's spiritual life centred on the majestic Abbey of St Florian. He was a boy-chorister there, and in death his embalmed remains lie in a sarcophagus beneath the Abbey's mighty organ.

But Bruckner also knew the heartbreak of rebellion from the tradition that fostered him. In essence Catholic orthodoxy was neither large enough nor open enough to accommodate the extent of Bruckner's vision. In trying to 'clip his wings', Catholic officialdom, much to its own ultimate loss and discredit, succeeded in the end merely in driving Bruckner deeper into himself.

Bruckner's journey of quest led in time to his greatest spiritual masterpiece, the Ninth Symphony, dedicated, with deepest humility, "to dear God, if He will accept it". It was a long and sometimes painful journey, and there is as yet no adequate acknowledgement, either from musicians or the Christian Church, of the enormity of Bruckner's achievement

in the Ninth Symphony. For it is certainly part of my thesis here, and a significant reason for my placing of Bruckner among the 'most important people who ever lived', that his Ninth Symphony, by some long distance, is the most profound musical work ever composed.

Bruckner from his earliest years was captivated by vocal polyphony and Gregorian Chant, "the ever-flowing song" - as one critic aptly described it - "of the Catholic Church at prayer". But no less, from his earliest exposure to it, was Bruckner entranced by Wagner's use of the orchestra. And the ideal, in his fecund imagination, would be to combine the two.

The Catholic Church, in its traditional wisdom (as expressed by the Cäcilienverein - the Society of Cecilia), refused to sanction the combination. Bruckner, ever the dutiful son, tried to exercise the ordained restraint, in his austerely beautiful Mass in E minor (for wind instruments only and eight-part choir) of 1866.
But the shackles of this restraint were not, for Bruckner, a long-term possibility. The consequent tension caused a nervous breakdown, and henceforward Bruckner committed himself, with few exceptions, to the purely orchestral symphony. The symphony thus became, for Bruckner, the type of a "wordless Mass for Orchestra", in which his deepest spiritual promptings could be explored outside and beyond the limitations which marked the policy of the Cäcilienverein.

In Bruckner's symphonies we are far from the organized onward development and movement of sonata form. Rather,
we start from the blank canvas of silence, progressing gradually and tentatively into the exploration of eternity. There are many false starts, many pauses for wonderment and taking stock along the way. But, as confidence grows, there are heart-rendingly beautiful and intimate moments of melody, and perorations, majestic and even awe-inspiring in their grandeur.

The key to success in performance, and the key to understanding what Bruckner is trying to do, lies in patience. The patience demanded is akin to that required in a spiritual retreat, and it is this patience in the quest of the infinite and eternal, and consequently the affirmation resulting from the protracted search, that cement Bruckner's claim to be a Christian mystic.

And in the Ninth Symphony all these trends and strivings reach their furthest level of expression. The work was
essentially complete at Bruckner's death in 1896, the first three movements entrusted for safe-keeping to Dr Karl Muck, the fourth movement on the composer's desk. But to their eternal shame, those responsible failed to secure Bruckner's apartment, and booty-hunters pillaged some pages of the last movement's manuscript.

We owe to the painstaking reconstructive work (based on Bruckner's sketches) of the Australian musicologist John
Phillips [in collaboration with Nicola Samale, Giuseppe Mazzuca and Benjamin-Gunnar Cohrs] that Bruckner's final and greatest achievement can at last (since 1996) be seen and heard complete, in its intended four movements. (The three-movement form of the work known and performed for so many years represents an inevitable curtailment and blunting of Bruckner's full imaginative vision.)

Bruckner's world is a timeless world, an eternal world, an essentially true world, for those who are willing to take the time to accompany him there. And with infinite perceptiveness the Romanian conductor Sergiu Celibidache on one occasion observed that "Bruckner is God's greatest gift to humankind". Would that this acknowledgement were universal, for it assuredly deserves to be!

Dr Martin Pulbrook St Andrews/Dundee/Perth, 23rd/25th January 2014

[Bruckner's relationship as a composer with the Catholic Church, the Cäcilienverein, and the cause of his 'nervous breakdown' as described by Dr Pulbrook differs from most scholarly commentary today. But that Anton Bruckner was the subject of an address in Blackpool Unitarian Church seems a singular event that earns that address publication in The Bruckner Journal. Ed.]

My emphasis above.

See:

https://brucknerjournal.com/Issues/ewExternalFiles/19iA4.pdf


And...


https://brucknerjournal.com/Issues/backissues4.html
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on March 20, 2023, 01:32:30 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 20, 2023, 01:16:50 PMIt has been too long since I took some time to check The Bruckner Journal, the successor to Chord and Discord, which was being edited by Jack Diether when I started reading it in the 1960's.

I came across this article in the archives of The Bruckner Journal: a Unitarian minister (from Scotland or Australia?) speaking on Bruckner's mysticism.

My emphasis above.

See:

https://brucknerjournal.com/Issues/ewExternalFiles/19iA4.pdf


And...


https://brucknerjournal.com/Issues/backissues4.html
Quoth Mr Spock: Fascinating.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 20, 2023, 02:08:24 PM
Quote from: Karl Henning on March 20, 2023, 01:32:30 PMQuoth Mr Spock: Fascinating.


;)    8)

What caught my eye especially was that this essay was from a Unitarian minister, which church was once puckishly described by one of my professors as "a religion just in case there is a God."  8)

And where is my Angel emoticon?!  Here is another instance where it would be perfect!

Maybe I should start doing this:

(https://www.clipartkey.com/mpngs/m/19-195037_transparent-religious-christmas-clipart-emojis-png-angel.png)


Anyway, yes, I thought the essay was also "Fascinating" and not only for this belief:

" For it is certainly part of my thesis here, and a significant reason for my placing of Bruckner among the 'most important people who ever lived', that his Ninth Symphony, by some long distance, is the most profound musical work ever composed. "
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Karl Henning on March 20, 2023, 02:12:40 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 20, 2023, 02:08:24 PM;)    8)

What caught my eye especially was that this essay was from a Unitarian minister, which church was once puckishly described by one of my professors as "a religion just in case there is a God."  8)

And where is my Angel emoticon?!  Here is another instance where it would be perfect!

Maybe I should start doing this:

(https://www.clipartkey.com/mpngs/m/19-195037_transparent-religious-christmas-clipart-emojis-png-angel.png)


Anyway, yes, I thought the essay was also "Fascinating" and not only for this belief:

" For it is certainly part of my thesis here, and a significant reason for my placing of Bruckner among the 'most important people who ever lived', that his Ninth Symphony, by some long distance, is the most profound musical work ever composed. "

Here's certainly a case where, while empirically I am apt to question the pursuit of a "most profound musical work ever composed," I thoroughly enjoy the thesis, and appreciate the eloquence whereby the enthusiasm is expressed. There's a great deal of interest in there!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on March 20, 2023, 04:15:02 PM
Quote from: Karl Henning on March 20, 2023, 02:12:40 PMHere's certainly a case where, while empirically I am apt to question the pursuit of a "most profound musical work ever composed," I thoroughly enjoy the thesis, and appreciate the eloquence whereby the enthusiasm is expressed. There's a great deal of interest in there!

Fully agreed, and if anyone else wants to write at length to tell me why Bruckner's 9th (or any other piece of music, for that matter) is the peak of all human artistic expression, I'm all ears, though I may not agree. I'm a sucker for people writing with such intensity about their convictions. I'm of two minds as to whether or not this kind of hagiographic writing on Bruckner does any real service to his music or legacy, but I do admire the intense and clearly deeply felt enthusiasm.

Thanks for sharing Cato, though I expect this may rub some of us the wrong way (including some resident GMG Brucknerians).

By the way, I listened to Celibidache's Bruckner 4th again the other day. That bit about Bruckner being "God's greatest gift to humankind", you can tell Celi really believes that.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 20, 2023, 04:40:23 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 20, 2023, 04:15:02 PMFully agreed, and if anyone else wants to write at length to tell me why Bruckner's 9th (or any other piece of music, for that matter) is the peak of all human artistic expression, I'm all ears, though I may not agree. I'm a sucker for people writing with such intensity about their convictions. I'm of two minds as to whether or not this kind of hagiographic writing on Bruckner does any real service to his music or legacy, but I do admire the intense and clearly deeply felt enthusiasm.

Thanks for sharing Cato, though I expect this may rub some of us the wrong way (including some resident GMG Brucknerians).

By the way, I listened to Celibidache's Bruckner 4th again the other day. That bit about Bruckner being "God's greatest gift to humankind", you can tell Celi really believes that.


Yes, the author apparently listened to the completed version of Bruckner's Ninth (Simon Rattle's recording?) and had a quasi-Road-to-Damascus moment via the work!

I must listen to that Bruckner 4th/ Celibidache recording sooner rather than later! 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on March 20, 2023, 05:00:39 PM
Well, the Bruckner 9th is my favourite symphony of any composer, but I don't know if it's the most profound music ever written?  :D

However, it is pretty damn good.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Keemun on March 21, 2023, 06:27:54 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 20, 2023, 05:00:39 PMWell, the Bruckner 9th is my favourite symphony of any composer, but I don't know if it's the most profound music ever written?  :D

However, it is pretty damn good.

Have you heard the recording by Abbado/Lucerne Festival Orchestra?  It's excellent.  My favorite version (as of now).

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71z24Q17OdL._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on March 22, 2023, 02:39:46 AM
Quote from: Keemun on March 21, 2023, 06:27:54 PMHave you heard the recording by Abbado/Lucerne Festival Orchestra?  It's excellent.  My favorite version (as of now).

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71z24Q17OdL._SL1200_.jpg)

I have not heard that one Todd.  :) My old favourite seems to remain Jochum/Dresden.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on March 22, 2023, 07:15:11 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 22, 2023, 02:39:46 AMI have not heard that one Todd.  :) My old favourite seems to remain Jochum/Dresden.

And my favorite is (https://images.universal-music.de/img/assets/985/98530/4/720/sinfonien-nr-8-c-moll-nr-9-d-moll-0028944975828.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 22, 2023, 11:05:02 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 22, 2023, 07:15:11 AMAnd my favorite is (https://images.universal-music.de/img/assets/985/98530/4/720/sinfonien-nr-8-c-moll-nr-9-d-moll-0028944975828.jpg)


Are those stereo recordings?

Besides this stereo recording conducted by Eugen Jochum...

(https://static.hires-online.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Bruckner-Symphony-No.9-Te-Deum-sleeve.jpg)


...I was also enthralled in the 1960's by Carl Schuricht's "no-nonsense" approach:

(https://img.discogs.com/HWjPr-DjMqFNmUtNcCCog335fIM=/fit-in/600x601/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6943122-1443694388-3060.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on March 22, 2023, 11:21:17 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 22, 2023, 11:05:02 AMAre those stereo recordings?

I'll admit that they are a bit old, but both of those recordings (the 8th and the 9th) are just amazing!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 22, 2023, 11:23:53 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 22, 2023, 11:21:17 AMI'll admit that they are a bit old, but both of those recordings (the 8th and the 9th) are just amazing!


Thanks for the swift reply!  I will look into finding those performances!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on March 22, 2023, 03:14:54 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 22, 2023, 11:05:02 AMAre those stereo recordings?
Discogs has the recording dates, though it's a bit fuzzy here:

(https://i.discogs.com/6rBPG9t-cwnoSX9SsGVtej-yPYeOfptedS7YE7RM5FU/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTc0NzQ3/NjQtMTY2MzUwNjgw/Ny02ODA5LmpwZWc.jpeg)

Have you heard the Jochum/Dresden 9th?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 22, 2023, 04:14:46 PM
Quote from: Daverz on March 22, 2023, 03:14:54 PMDiscogs has the recording dates, though it's a bit fuzzy here:

(https://i.discogs.com/6rBPG9t-cwnoSX9SsGVtej-yPYeOfptedS7YE7RM5FU/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTc0NzQ3/NjQtMTY2MzUwNjgw/Ny02ODA5LmpwZWc.jpeg)

Have you heard the Jochum/Dresden 9th?


Thanks for the information!  And yes, the Eugen Jochum/Dresden 9th is another triumph!  That entire 1970's cycle with the Staatskapelle Dresden is preferred by some over the DGG cycle. 

The usual wisdom about the difference between the the two is that the former might have more polished orchestras, but the latter has more visceral drive and power.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Keemun on March 22, 2023, 06:29:29 PM
I think the next version I listen to will be Jochum/Dresden.  I'm sure I've heard it before, as I have that cycle on CD, but it's been years.   :o
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on March 23, 2023, 06:32:06 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 22, 2023, 04:14:46 PMThanks for the information!  And yes, the Eugen Jochum/Dresden 9th is another triumph!  That entire 1970's cycle with the Staatskapelle Dresden is preferred by some over the DGG cycle. 

The usual wisdom about the difference between the the two is that the former might have more polished orchestras, but the latter has more visceral drive and power.

Glad to see some love for the Dresden cycle.  I thought I was alone here in preferring it over the DG cycle (though I own and listen to both).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on March 23, 2023, 06:34:48 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 23, 2023, 06:32:06 AMGlad to see some love for the Dresden cycle.  I thought I was alone here in preferring it over the DG cycle (though I own and listen to both).

I do love both as well, but I have a slight preference to the Dresden.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on March 23, 2023, 06:38:46 AM
Speaking of the Jochum/Dresden, I have the older EMI green box issue, but I see it was somewhat recently released in 2020 under Warner Classics.  Good to see!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 24, 2023, 06:39:52 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 23, 2023, 06:38:46 AMSpeaking of the Jochum/Dresden, I have the older EMI green box issue, but I see it was somewhat recently released in 2020 under Warner Classics.  Good to see!


So there must be a market for that set!  Good to hear!

Earlier I was offering the opinion of musicologist H.F. Redlich on Bruckner's music from Bruckner and Mahler, a book of Redlich's from the mid 1950's.

In his survey of the symphonies, Redlich lets it be known that he does not like the Symphony #6 very much at all.

The work, says Herr Redlich, "excessively underscored and emphasized" "certain idiosyncrasies," which he does not specify. He complains that one of the themes in the opening movement and everything in the Scherzo are "painfully" modeled on Herr Wagner of Bayreuth.

He admits that the strongest movement is the second, but that it "cannot compensate for the unfortunate impression made by the patchy and inconclusive finale, which resorts more than any other movement of Bruckner's to material exploited by him to the full elsewhere."

He says that Gustav Mahler conducted the work's premiere in 1899 after "cutting it to the bone."

I find the opinion astonishing: I have always been a great admirer of the work, and find the objections very odd.  The Sixth has always seemed to me a strange but marvelous child, where Bruckner is experimenting with all kinds of things, especially rhythm and form.

Here is a counter-opinion:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/jun/03/symphony-guide-bruckners-6th (https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/jun/03/symphony-guide-bruckners-6th) 

A salient excerpt:

Quote

And making a connection across the symphony, one of the finale's tunes is a hyperactive transformation of the unforgettable, lamenting oboe line you hear at the start of the Adagio. But best and perhaps most cliché-beating of all is the sense at the end of the finale that all of the threads – and all of those grinding symphonic strata – have not in fact been tied together. Yes, Bruckner brings back the melody from the first movement, and there's a brief and noisy coda, but the emotional sense of this truncated apotheosis of the symphony is of questions that are left unanswered, of a symphonic drama that is left ambivalently open rather than cosmically closed.

That has troubled some Brucknerian commentators, who want to imagine that every Bruckner symphony ought to be a closed universe of musical and expressive experience. But why should that be the case? Instead of a sign of symphonic inadequacy, that emotional ambiguity is proof that the sixth achieves something completely different from the rest of Bruckner's other symphonies, and it's why I think its febrile drama resonates so profoundly after you've heard the whole piece. You'll want to return again and again to this symphony and its stupendous - yet "saucy" - drama.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DaveF on March 25, 2023, 10:15:05 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 24, 2023, 06:39:52 PMI have always been a great admirer of the work, and find the objections very odd.  The Sixth has always seemed to me a strange but marvelous child, where Bruckner is experimenting with all kinds of things, especially rhythm and form.

"Certain idiosyncrasies" in a Bruckner symphony?? Surely not!

And yes, quite agree with your particular admiration of no.6, and thanks for the Guardian link - it had never occurred to me that the oboe lament from the slow movement turns into the descending melody of the finale's introduction.  The latter is surely one of the funniest passages in a Bruckner symphony - up there, for me, with the "Beethoven 9" intro to no.5's finale, with its nose-thumbing clarinet interruptions.  It's one of those bits that you wish could be wiped from your memory, so as to hear it again with innocent ears - the first reaction is "Bruckner finales don't start like this", then it gets repeated with loud brass cadences to make you jump, and then we're off - those loud cadences turn into the first theme.  (The more I think of it, the more it becomes like a compressed version of no.5, where the rude interruptions turn also turn into the first theme, which just happens to be an almighty fugue.)

And isn't the first (quiet) half of the 1st movement's coda just the most beautiful thing in any Bruckner symphony?  And as for those rhythmic superpositions - it took Klemperer's recording to make sense of them to me, since so many conductors seem to get lost in a sort of polyrhythmic soup.  But when they do make sense, they are mind-expanding.

If I had to apply the description "patchy and inconclusive" to the finale of any late Bruckner symphony, it would be to that of no.7, nearly all of whose material is (admittedly very effectively) derived from the 1st theme of the 1st movement.  And here, if anywhere, the coda feels like a door being rather impatiently slammed.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 26, 2023, 01:58:22 PM
Quote from: DaveF on March 25, 2023, 10:15:05 AM"Certain idiosyncrasies" in a Bruckner symphony?? Surely not!

And yes, quite agree with your particular admiration of no.6, and thanks for the Guardian link - it had never occurred to me that the oboe lament from the slow movement turns into the descending melody of the finale's introduction.  The latter is surely one of the funniest passages in a Bruckner symphony - up there, for me, with the "Beethoven 9" intro to no.5's finale, with its nose-thumbing clarinet interruptions.  It's one of those bits that you wish could be wiped from your memory, so as to hear it again with innocent ears - the first reaction is "Bruckner finales don't start like this", then it gets repeated with loud brass cadences to make you jump, and then we're off - those loud cadences turn into the first theme.  (The more I think of it, the more it becomes like a compressed version of no.5, where the rude interruptions turn also turn into the first theme, which just happens to be an almighty fugue.)

And isn't the first (quiet) half of the 1st movement's coda just the most beautiful thing in any Bruckner symphony?  And as for those rhythmic superpositions - it took Klemperer's recording to make sense of them to me, since so many conductors seem to get lost in a sort of polyrhythmic soup.  But when they do make sense, they are mind-expanding.

If I had to apply the description "patchy and inconclusive" to the finale of any late Bruckner symphony, it would be to that of no.7, nearly all of whose material is (admittedly very effectively) derived from the 1st theme of the 1st movement.  And here, if anywhere, the coda feels like a door being rather impatiently slammed.


Excellent points!  Thank you for the comments!

In one of my (Still unpublished) novels, an adolescent organist for a Catholic parish decides to adapt the last section of the slow movement from Bruckner's Sixth Symphony for the organ and use it at a Requiem Mass for a child killed in an accident.


Quote...a melody from Tom's musical memory began playing, as he read the obituary, which mentioned Augie's pride in being an altar boy at St. Mary's and his joy in playing baseball.  The melody was a somber funeral march, complete with muffled drumbeats.  The important thing, however, was that the second part of the march rose somewhat, and seemed to aspire toward hope, or at least to counterbalance the tragedy of the opening notes.  It was from the Sixth Symphony of Anton Bruckner, from the Adagio, the second movement. 

But Tom also remembered that Bruckner brings this theme back toward the end of the movement, in a shortened form, and the little tragic funeral march becomes involved in a short brass chorale that softens the lament, which then leads to a dialogue in the strings, an up-and-down debate, with the upwardness of the music winning gently at the end, the two flutes and a single clarinet slowly, benignly, smilingly voicing their opinion that all is well, that the turmoil and sadness heard earlier have been dissolved into nothingness.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on March 27, 2023, 04:19:47 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/JnvgybbN/B19-F6465-7-EEC-4078-BE1-A-335-CE6-E2-F558.jpg)

For Ray, contents of the newest incarnation of Jochum/Dresden box
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brahmsian on March 27, 2023, 04:20:54 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 27, 2023, 04:19:47 AM(https://i.postimg.cc/JnvgybbN/B19-F6465-7-EEC-4078-BE1-A-335-CE6-E2-F558.jpg)

For Ray, contents of the newest incarnation of Jochum/Dresden box

Drool!  8)  :D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: relm1 on March 27, 2023, 05:41:03 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 22, 2023, 04:14:46 PMAnd yes, the Eugen Jochum/Dresden 9th is another triumph!  That entire 1970's cycle with the Staatskapelle Dresden is preferred by some over the DGG cycle.

Agreed, that Jochum/Dresden/9 is very, very good.  Probably my favorite of the two dozen recordings of this work I've heard.  Something very raw about its emotions...on the brink of imploding on itself through the depth of feeling while maintaining clarity and precision.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on March 27, 2023, 02:35:13 PM
You all are making me want to listen to that 9th again. I do recall it being one of the better ones I've heard for its extreme intensity (something I'm a sucker for in Bruckner performances) and rhythmic drive.

For what it's worth, this is my favorite Bruckner 9th:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/IMAGERENDERING_521856-T1/images/I/51F6qJPh6DL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)

Kind of an unpopular choice I realize, but it's the recording I learned the symphony with and I just love it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on March 27, 2023, 02:38:24 PM
OK, Brucknerians of GMG, hopefully someone among you knows this:

Is there a difference in mastering between these two incarnations of the Barenboim/BPO Bruckner cycle?

This is the one I have:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/IMAGERENDERING_521856-T1/images/I/41Xopt2VL6L._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)

And this is the new one:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61cXdfiu-yL._SL1200_.jpg)

If there is a remaster and you've heard both, can you tell the difference? The newest incarnation is available for very cheap and I'm wondering whether it's worth the upgrade. As I said in my previous post I realize this is an unpopular cycle, but someone out there has to love it as much as I do and is able to answer this for me  :P
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on March 27, 2023, 03:52:04 PM
Usually Warner mentions remastering, but doesn't with this one. But the copyright dates include 2021, which might mean remastering.

But pay attention to the problem narrated in the Amazon US review signed as "Just Bill".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on March 27, 2023, 04:43:17 PM
Quote from: JBS on March 27, 2023, 03:52:04 PMUsually Warner mentions remastering, but doesn't with this one. But the copyright dates include 2021, which might mean remastering.

But pay attention to the problem narrated in the Amazon US review signed as "Just Bill".

It appears that his problem is in reference to a previous issue of the same cycle, possibly the (blue) one I already have (which, for what it's worth, does not contain the glitch he is referring to). His comments date from 2017, while the (red) box I'm considering "upgrading" to was not released until 2021. (Sometimes, I've noticed, Amazon compiles reviews from earlier editions onto the latest edition of a particular release.)

In any case, thank you for the warning!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 28, 2023, 08:38:36 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 27, 2023, 04:43:17 PMIt appears that his problem is in reference to a previous issue of the same cycle, possibly the (blue) one I already have (which, for what it's worth, does not contain the glitch he is referring to). His comments date from 2017, while the (red) box I'm considering "upgrading" to was not released until 2021. (Sometimes, I've noticed, Amazon compiles reviews from earlier editions onto the latest edition of a particular release.)

In any case, thank you for the warning!

FWIW - I much prefer Barenboim's 1st cycle in Chicago on DG.  Its probably even LESS well-regarded than the Berlin cycle and in fact No.9 is probably not the finest part of that cycle.  But I love a lot of the other performances there - No.4 is a thrill ride (oh those Chicago horns.......)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: relm1 on March 28, 2023, 03:43:22 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 28, 2023, 08:38:36 AMFWIW - I much prefer Barenboim's 1st cycle in Chicago on DG.  Its probably even LESS well-regarded than the Berlin cycle and in fact No.9 is probably not the finest part of that cycle.  But I love a lot of the other performances there - No.4 is a thrill ride (oh those Chicago horns.......)

Completely agree 200%.  My favorite No. 4 ever is Barenboim/CSO.  Later Barenboim not as much.  Hard to describe it aside from the amazing sheer kinetic energy this recording exudes. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on March 28, 2023, 06:37:38 PM
While comparing Barenboim sets--there is a third one.  Anyone have an opinion on it?
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/IMAGERENDERING_521856-T1/images/I/71ppRc4srzL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/IMAGERENDERING_521856-T1/images/I/61-aypEomyL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)

I must laugh at the back cover blurb, which says this is a legendary cycle, was begun to be recorded in 2010, and is now (that would be 2014) being released on CD for the first time--all within the same sentence.

The Chicago cycle appears to be OOP as a set, although not as individual CDs.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 29, 2023, 04:30:08 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 28, 2023, 03:43:22 PMCompletely agree 200%.  My favorite No. 4 ever is Barenboim/CSO.  Later Barenboim not as much.  Hard to describe it aside from the amazing sheer kinetic energy this recording exudes. 

Exactly so.  My own personal taste is not for the overly pious turgid wade through Bruckner.  Not that I like the "its Schubert with more horns" approach of some.  But what I do like is the exhilarating energy and excitement that the Barenboim 1st cycle generates.  Certainly with the dozens of cycles around it derserves at least consideration although I guess many of the door-keepers to the "Temple of Anton" might bar its entrance to such sacred ground.........  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 29, 2023, 04:35:10 AM
Quote from: JBS on March 28, 2023, 06:37:38 PMWhile comparing Barenboim sets--there is a third one.  Anyone have an opinion on it?
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/IMAGERENDERING_521856-T1/images/I/71ppRc4srzL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/IMAGERENDERING_521856-T1/images/I/61-aypEomyL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)

I must laugh at the back cover blurb, which says this is a legendary cycle, was begun to be recorded in 2010, and is now (that would be 2014) being released on CD for the first time--all within the same sentence.

The Chicago cycle appears to be OOP as a set, although not as individual CDs.

I ask myself why but I do actually own all three Barenboim cycles.  Of course they are all well-played.  There is quite a performing difference between Chicago and Berlin.  But far less of a difference from Berlin PO to Berlin Staats so you do wonder why anyone - including Barenboim - thought it was necessary to do all over again.  In fairness (although I don't agree with him!) I think Barenboim felt his Chicago cycle lacked a depth of insight and understanding that warranted the Berlin PO remake.  Perhaps therefore, my preference for Chicago simply reflects my own lack of depth and understanding (in most things I suspect....!)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: relm1 on March 29, 2023, 06:00:16 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 29, 2023, 04:35:10 AMI ask myself why but I do actually own all three Barenboim cycles.  Of course they are all well-played.  There is quite a performing difference between Chicago and Berlin.  But far less of a difference from Berlin PO to Berlin Staats so you do wonder why anyone - including Barenboim - thought it was necessary to do all over again.  In fairness (although I don't agree with him!) I think Barenboim felt his Chicago cycle lacked a depth of insight and understanding that warranted the Berlin PO remake.  Perhaps therefore, my preference for Chicago simply reflects my own lack of depth and understanding (in most things I suspect....!)

I think it's just a more youthful interpretation and that's not a bad thing, just a different evolution of one's experience similar to how I prefer Bernstein's 1960's recordings over the 1980's.  Both are excellent but the later shows a maturity of interpretation and sometimes the more youthful approach is preferable.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lordlance on March 29, 2023, 04:59:12 PM
I heard this Sixth recently:

(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b2735e793fc0d8928fd687731e8f)

I don't suspect anyone was thinking this was going to be one of the all time great Bruckner Sixths and it wasn't - not actively terrible either though; just good. Lacked heft so for those who like their Bruckner a bit lighter perhaps they can give it a go. The idea of wanting lighter Bruckner seems like an oxymoron to me though.  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 08, 2023, 09:00:48 PM
This came out recently

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTM2MTg0OC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NjU1NzE2NDh9)

I think it's the best performance so far of the Symphonic Prelude. As presented here this stands as a fine truncated Bruckner first movement (no development, hardly any coda). Great sketch!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on April 10, 2023, 12:15:03 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 08, 2023, 09:00:48 PMThis came out recently

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTM2MTg0OC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NjU1NzE2NDh9)

I think it's the best performance so far of the Symphonic Prelude. As presented here this stands as a fine truncated Bruckner first movement (no development, hardly any coda). Great sketch!
How does the performance of the Symphony compare with earlier ones? I like that work very much.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 10, 2023, 03:26:52 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 10, 2023, 12:15:03 AMHow does the performance of the Symphony compare with earlier ones? I like that work very much.

Sorry, I don't know, I only bought the Prelude. However, the playing of the Prelude is very good, so I expect it would be a good disc overall.

I have the Paavo Järvi version of the Hans Rott Symphony, which I like a lot.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vandermolen on April 11, 2023, 12:46:29 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 10, 2023, 03:26:52 PMSorry, I don't know, I only bought the Prelude. However, the playing of the Prelude is very good, so I expect it would be a good disc overall.

I have the Paavo Järvi version of the Hans Rott Symphony, which I like a lot.
Thanks anyway
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 13, 2023, 06:52:13 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 10, 2023, 03:26:52 PMSorry, I don't know, I only bought the Prelude. However, the playing of the Prelude is very good, so I expect it would be a good disc overall.

I have the Paavo Järvi version of the Hans Rott Symphony, which I like a lot.



YES!  A most excellent performance of the Rott Symphony.


Concerning Daniel Barenboim and Bruckner:


Quote

...Q.  Do you remember your earliest encounter with Bruckner's music?

Daniel Barenboim: Yes, I remember it very well because it was in Australia, of all places. I was on tour there and I was 15 years old. I played with [conductor] Rafael Kubelik. whom I greatly admired. And when we finished rehearsing he says, "What are you doing now?" I said, "Nothing special." He said, "Why don't you stay? I'm rehearsing the Bruckner Nine."

Q. What was about the sound of it that that drew you in?

D. Barenboim: Well, I was 15 years old, and I was not well versed in analyzing my thoughts, let alone emotions. But I remember being fascinated by the way the orchestra sounded, especially the scherzo. And then of course the unfinished third movement. I felt very attracted by the harmonies in the piece.

Q: So what keeps you interested in and Bruckner's music today? You've recorded three cycles of his symphonies, and now you're about to conduct them all live at Carnegie Hall.

D. Barenboim: People think: How do musicians manage always to play the same pieces again and again for years and years and years? You know, some of the pieces I've been playing on the piano, including one of the Mozart concertos that I'm playing in this cycle in New York, I played in 1950.

Somebody who feels he has to strain himself in order not to be bored by doing the same piece again might as well look for another profession, because it means he doesn't understand the first thing about it. Nothing in music is twice the same way. In the same way that nothing in life is twice the same way

The most fascinating thing about being a musician is that every time you play or you conduct a piece, you learn something more. That means if I conduct the Bruckner Ninth today, when I finish the concert, I know something more about the piece than I knew before the concert. And when I come to conduct it again tomorrow, I come with a little more knowledge.

But the sound, the performance, is finished. I have to create all that from zero. And to create something from zero with more knowledge about it is one of the most wonderful experiences a human being can have.



See:

https://www.npr.org/sections/deceptivecadence/2017/01/19/509469628/why-bruckner-matters-a-listeners-guide-with-daniel-barenboim (https://www.npr.org/sections/deceptivecadence/2017/01/19/509469628/why-bruckner-matters-a-listeners-guide-with-daniel-barenboim)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 14, 2023, 07:47:32 AM
Quote from: Cato on April 13, 2023, 06:52:13 PMYES!  A most excellent performance of the Rott Symphony.


Concerning Daniel Barenboim and Bruckner:



See:

https://www.npr.org/sections/deceptivecadence/2017/01/19/509469628/why-bruckner-matters-a-listeners-guide-with-daniel-barenboim (https://www.npr.org/sections/deceptivecadence/2017/01/19/509469628/why-bruckner-matters-a-listeners-guide-with-daniel-barenboim)





I should mention that the link above has the complete radio interview: the article is only a section of the interview.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 14, 2023, 11:51:07 AM
From the listening now topic:

Quote from: Linz on April 14, 2023, 11:27:41 AMAnotherBruckner symphony No. 3 in D Minor this time with Eugen Jochum and the Staatskapelle Dresden


You seem to be listening in order: I am interested in knowing whether you think your perception/appreciation of the works might be somehow changed or affected.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Florestan on April 15, 2023, 03:28:38 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 29, 2023, 04:30:08 AMExactly so.  My own personal taste is not for the overly pious turgid wade through Bruckner.  Not that I like the "its Schubert with more horns" approach of some.  But what I do like is the exhilarating energy and excitement that the Barenboim 1st cycle generates.  Certainly with the dozens of cycles around it derserves at least consideration although I guess many of the door-keepers to the "Temple of Anton" might bar its entrance to such sacred ground.........  ;)

Do I correctly infer that Barenboim / CSO cycle is not an overly pious and turgid wade, it's nothing like Jochum or Celibidache and actually it's held in contempt by the door-keepers to the "Temple of Saint Anton"? If yes, this sounds like something that might finally crack the Bruckner nut for me. I might try it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on April 15, 2023, 04:51:17 AM
There are quite a few of non-reverent and/or lean and fastish Bruckner recordings but Bruckner will remain Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on April 15, 2023, 07:00:39 AM
Quote from: Florestan on April 15, 2023, 03:28:38 AMDo I correctly infer that Barenboim / CSO cycle is not an overly pious and turgid wade, it's nothing like Jochum or Celibidache and actually it's held in contempt by the door-keepers to the "Temple of Saint Anton"? If yes, this sounds like something that might finally crack the Bruckner nut for me. I might try it.

I don't think that it is held in contempt, it is just unknown.  It is a victim of being on the same label as Karajan and Jochum I, didn't receive enough marketing and went oop quickly.  Sometimes it doesn't pay to be on a major label. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Florestan on April 15, 2023, 07:02:47 AM
Quote from: DavidW on April 15, 2023, 07:00:39 AMI don't think that it is held in contempt, it is just unknown.  It is a victim of being on the same label as Karajan and Jochum I, didn't receive enough marketing and went oop quickly.  Sometimes it doesn't pay to be on a major label. 

Have you heard it? If yes, would you agree that it is "irreverential"?

I try to figure out if it's worth my time.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on April 15, 2023, 07:10:34 AM
Quote from: Florestan on April 15, 2023, 07:02:47 AMHave you heard it? If yes, would you agree that it is "irreverential"?

I try to figure out if it's worth my time.

Not the whole set!  I've heard more of the later two sets (those are middle of the road).  But I don't think that word fits for Barenboim in anything he conducts.  The only time I felt that way was when listening to Gielen's Bruckner 8.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on April 15, 2023, 07:11:10 AM
Quote from: Florestan on April 15, 2023, 07:02:47 AMHave you heard it? If yes, would you agree that it is "irreverential"?

I try to figure out if it's worth my time.

I can't speak on the Chicago cycle, but "irreverential" is absolutely not a word I would use to describe Barenboim's BPO cycle, which is definitely more in the "spiritual" Bruckner tradition. I have a hard time believing that his approach would have changed THAT much between the two cycles so as to go from "irreverential" to monumental.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on April 15, 2023, 07:43:33 AM
Just wondering, has anyone heard any of von Karajan's live recordings of the Fifth? I know of at least one each from Berlin and Vienna, but l don't know if there are any others out there.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Florestan on April 15, 2023, 07:54:31 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 15, 2023, 07:11:10 AMI can't speak on the Chicago cycle, but "irreverential" is absolutely not a word I would use to describe Barenboim's BPO cycle, which is definitely more in the "spiritual" Bruckner tradition. I have a hard time believing that his approach would have changed THAT much between the two cycles so as to go from "irreverential" to monumental.

This is what piqued my interest:

Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 29, 2023, 04:30:08 AMMy own personal taste is not for the overly pious turgid wade through Bruckner

from which I inferred that Barenboim / CSO is nothing like the above description, hence my use of "irreverential".



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Florestan on April 15, 2023, 08:24:19 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on April 15, 2023, 08:22:03 AMIf you are interested in a genuinely iconoclastic approach to Bruckner, I wonder if Venzago's cycle (on CPO, with various orchestras) might be a better bet.  His approach starts by rejecting the idea that there is such a thing as a "proper" style of Bruckner performance that applies equally to all the symphonies, and instead tries to find in each case an interpretation appropriate to the merits of that particular symphony. 

This sounds interesting too, thanks.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 15, 2023, 09:46:37 AM
Quote from: Florestan on April 15, 2023, 03:28:38 AMDo I correctly infer that Barenboim / CSO cycle is not an overly pious and turgid wade, it's nothing like Jochum or Celibidache and actually it's held in contempt by the door-keepers to the "Temple of Saint Anton"? If yes, this sounds like something that might finally crack the Bruckner nut for me. I might try it.

Barenboim/Chicago is an unfusty/exciting/muscular Bruckner.  For a lithe athletic but still powerful approach try Rogner with the Berlin RSO - I love his (partial) cycle......
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 15, 2023, 05:10:01 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 15, 2023, 09:46:37 AMBarenboim/Chicago is an unfusty/exciting/muscular Bruckner.  For a lithe athletic but still powerful approach try Rogner with the Berlin RSO - I love his (partial) cycle......


Here is a rave review with some deatils:

Quote

...All the symphonies are infused with rhythmic vitality. Barenboim keeps tempos moving but nothing ever sounds rushed. Even the massive 8th Adagio, which can be dragged out interminably, moves at a good pace.

But within these faster tempos, solos, which are incredibly distinguished, never sound rushed. The consistency is really quite remarkable. I think Barenboim, always a serious musician, took these recordings very seriously.

Bruckner is de rigueur, the Staatskapelle is his wunderkind orchestra, giving its neighbour a run for its money as top Berlin band, and on his label. Thus, no inconsistencies. 

The famous moments, the highlights if you will, all sound terrific. You won't find better on record.
Let's see, my TDF list - 4th opening horn call, 4th opening movement brass fanfares, 4th Scherzo, 4th closing horns, 5th opening, 5th Adagio, 7th Symphony opening, 7th opening movement brass fanfares, 7th Adagio coda, 7th Scherzo, 8th Adagio, 8th Finale opening strings and timpani, 9th opening, 9th Scherzo, 9th last movement.

That'll do to start. And each excerpt sounds brilliant. And so does all the connective musical tissue. You can't go wrong, I tried. I mixed and matched, played the whole set through and backwards, nothing fazed Barenboim's interpretation or his orchestra's playing. ...



See:

https://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/2017/1/6/anton-bruckner-the-complete-symphonies-daniel-barenboim-staatskapelle-berlin (https://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/2017/1/6/anton-bruckner-the-complete-symphonies-daniel-barenboim-staatskapelle-berlin)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 16, 2023, 10:53:23 AM
I noticed that Professor John Phillips has written an essay about a week ago on the question of finding the missing pages of the Finale to Bruckner's Symphony #9.

From YouTube:


QuoteYes, it is Bruckner's greatest Finale, despite the mutilated state in which it has come down to us. This is, of course, an interesting question, but I'm not sanguine about the likelihood of any of the score bifolios turning up.

The autograph MSS market is a very dark and murky world. Back in December 1999, Nikolaus Harnoncourt, at the premiere of my "Documentation of the Fragments" of the Finale in Vienna - the first time any orchestra had ever performed the movement in Vienna, only 103 years after its composition - even told the audience to "go look in your old aunt's attic" in case any of the lost MSS are hidden there. Nothing has eventuated, although the publication in the 1990s of my research in the Bruckner Complete Edition, in the words of my publisher, "hit like a bomb."

We know from the present widespread distribution of the MSS, among about 30 different library shelf marks and many different libraries, just how checkered their transmission has been. The main material, however, remained together in official hands since 1896. No new orchestral bifolios have reappeared since the 1930s. There are two single-folio fragments, one of which is now in the Austrian National Library (both of them initial particello sketches, not missing orchestral bifolios, alas), that were still in private possession in the 1990s.

Is the possibility that something might still turn up any reason whatsoever to discount the current score, however? No, of course not. Let us be happy that we have what we have, and that the motivic design and formal structure of this movement itself is so closely argued, so compelling, that we could reconstruct it with such a high level of credibility and conclusiveness, that quite literally no greater likelihood for alternative reconstructions of any of the missing bifolios exists.

This now extends to the coda, where after 30 years I am now utterly convinced Bruckner had virtually drafted the harmonic continuity of the movement up to the final D major peroration and the "Allelujah" theme Bruckner prefigured so clearly in the Adagio.

Paring down the possibilities, arguing this or that version, might have taken 30 years, but it is now unquestionably as accurate as we can make it. I can also not imagine that any of the missing bifolios are at all likely to contain anything radically different.

Bruckner's compositional technique, after 9 (or 10) preceding symphonies, was honed down to such a fine degree. This is not only Bruckner's Finale to the Ninth, it is the Finale of the rest of his output as well.



My emphasis above!  Quite a confident statement!



See:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGnoOhHLWUE&lc=UgxdrqyARj3GXkh67DV4AaABAg.9j21WHt1dSz9jGJFQUd75z (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGnoOhHLWUE&lc=UgxdrqyARj3GXkh67DV4AaABAg.9j21WHt1dSz9jGJFQUd75z)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 17, 2023, 04:46:09 PM
This rarity came to me today via email:

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 21, 2023, 11:02:16 AM
I came across this article today: a conductor named Eckart Preu (Spokane Symphony in Washington State) on "Ecstasy" in Bruckner and Wagner.

Quote

"...Preu has paired Bruckner's colossal Third Symphony with music from just one other work: Wagner's Tristan und Isolde....

"... "What's interesting about Wagner and Bruckner is that they are so different personality-wise, but they have certain similarities. And one of the similarities is ecstasy. In Tristan, it's basically a composed orgasm. And this forward motion, this drive to a climax is very strong in Wagner and is also very strong in Bruckner," Preu says,

In Bruckner in particular, "there's a lot of emotional, sexual unfulfillment, which he poured into his music." That creates a sense of longing, yearning and ultimately release that lends the music its potency.

"Now, it can be played very straight and very Teutonic, and that's going to be incredibly boring," he admits.

" So, to counter that, Preu is drawing on the close relationship that he cultivated with the musicians of the Spokane Symphony to showcase what he believes to be the latent, overlooked qualities of Bruckner's work.

"There's stuff that I can do with this orchestra that I can't do with other orchestras.
The whole point of conducting is nonverbal communication, and so after 15 years, the orchestra knows exactly what I'm going for, what I want with my motions. It's like reading each other's mind, and I hope," he chuckles, "that there's some memory left."


 


Hmmm!  ;D  Well, some "interesting phrases" there!  :o 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on April 21, 2023, 11:57:53 AM
' " Now, it can be played very straight and very Teutonic, and that's going to be incredibly boring," he admits. '

The words of someone with little understanding of Bruckner, imho.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 21, 2023, 01:20:18 PM
Do you think Mr Preu is projecting perchance!?!?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on April 21, 2023, 04:53:43 PM
Quote from: LKB on April 21, 2023, 11:57:53 AM' " Now, it can be played very straight and very Teutonic, and that's going to be incredibly boring," he admits. '

The words of someone with little understanding of Bruckner, imho.


Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 21, 2023, 01:20:18 PMDo you think Mr Preu is projecting perchance!?!?


Amen to both of those!

The article is unintentionally funny in a Freudian way!   ;D     8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 03, 2023, 05:27:55 AM
I happened across a review of a recent concert by The Minnesota Orchestra with the Bruckner Symphony #6.

The reviewer did not like the performance, but made an interesting comment about the Adagio:

QuoteWhile the Minnesota Orchestra has delivered some memorable Bruckner symphonies — they were a specialty of former music director Stanislaw Skrowaczewski — rarely has this orchestra explored the composer's Sixth. In fact, this weekend's concerts mark just the fourth time in the orchestra's 120 years that it's found its way onto a program.

Why? Well, perhaps because the Sixth can be quite enigmatic. Bruckner has never been regarded as a master of melody, his music more about textures and flow than delivering catchy earworms. If Beethoven is a composer whose genius largely involved assembling fragments into astounding wholes, Bruckner is even more deeply committed to that method of making music. At their most transporting, his symphonies can be mesmerizing.

Alas, Mena and the orchestra didn't take me on the journey I desired. This version of the Sixth blared and bellowed too often, dipping down to whispers before inevitably erupting again. Only the Adagio could be called an unqualified success, a hypnotic funeral march that exposed the stylistic thread connecting Bruckner to Richard Wagner before him and Gustav Mahler after.


My emphasis above.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 03, 2023, 07:19:36 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 03, 2023, 05:27:55 AMI happened across a review of a recent concert by The Minnesota Orchestra with the Bruckner Symphony #6.

The reviewer did not like the performance, but made an interesting comment about the Adagio:

My emphasis above.

I assume it is Juanjo Mena as conductor - his Chandos/BBC PO/Bruckner 6 has been very widely praised (I've not heard it) - I can't imagine his Minnesota performance would differ vastly in interpretative terms so that's an interesting little divergence of opinions......!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 04, 2023, 08:33:29 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 03, 2023, 07:19:36 AMI assume it is Juanjo Mena as conductor - his Chandos/BBC PO/Bruckner 6 has been very widely praised (I've not heard it) - I can't imagine his Minnesota performance would differ vastly in interpretative terms so that's an interesting little divergence of opinions......!

Here is a performance by the BBC Philharmonic with Juanjo Mena: there is a comment that Mena has been influenced by S. Celibidache.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on May 04, 2023, 09:44:42 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 03, 2023, 05:27:55 AMI happened across a review of a recent concert by The Minnesota Orchestra with the Bruckner Symphony #6.

The reviewer did not like the performance, but made an interesting comment about the Adagio:


Thanks for this! I listened to the performance live, online, and (diverging from the writer above) thought it was magnificent. But then, we probably disagree on a few points:

"Bruckner has never been regarded as a master of melody, his music more about textures and flow than delivering catchy earworms."

DISAGREE. ;D His melodic sense might be more "motifs" than long breaths, but I hum Bruckner all the time.

"This version of the Sixth blared and bellowed too often, dipping down to whispers before inevitably erupting again."

But...but...but...that's what Bruckner does! And the contrast between those whispers and the blares are what make the scores so fascinating—among many other things, of course. Maybe the sound actually in the hall sounded harsher than it did online, but I had no complaints at all, and the orchestra was playing magnificently. Glad the writer at least liked the Adagio, which is one of Bruckner's finest.

Ah well, agree to disagree and all that. I had a great time listening. And yes, with Juanjo Mena, whom I haven't heard that often.

Meanwhile, I'm planning to hear this concert twice, tomorrow afternoon and Saturday night. All-Bruckner programs don't show up that often, and I haven't heard the Te Deum live since the 1980s, when Muti did it with the Philadelphia Orchestra.

https://www.philorch.org/performances/our-season/events-and-tickets/2022-23-season/verizon-hall/yannick-and-bruckner/

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 04, 2023, 11:08:53 AM
Quote from: brewski on May 04, 2023, 09:44:42 AMThanks for this! I listened to the performance live, online, and (diverging from the writer above) thought it was magnificent. But then, we probably disagree on a few points:

"Bruckner has never been regarded as a master of melody, his music more about textures and flow than delivering catchy earworms."

DISAGREE. ;D His melodic sense might be more "motifs" than long breaths, but I hum Bruckner all the time.

"This version of the Sixth blared and bellowed too often, dipping down to whispers before inevitably erupting again."

But...but...but...that's what Bruckner does! And the contrast between those whispers and the blares are what make the scores so fascinating—among many other things, of course. Maybe the sound actually in the hall sounded harsher than it did online, but I had no complaints at all, and the orchestra was playing magnificently. Glad the writer at least liked the Adagio, which is one of Bruckner's finest.

Ah well, agree to disagree and all that. I had a great time listening. And yes, with Juanjo Mena, whom I haven't heard that often.

Meanwhile, I'm planning to hear this concert twice, tomorrow afternoon and Saturday night. All-Bruckner programs don't show up that often, and I haven't heard the Te Deum live since the 1980s, when Muti did it with the Philadelphia Orchestra.

https://www.philorch.org/performances/our-season/events-and-tickets/2022-23-season/verizon-hall/yannick-and-bruckner/

-Bruce


You are quite welcome: I am happy that you liked the link!

Yes, those comments by the reviewer in Minnesota are really off-target.

e.g. I believe the opening melody of the Seventh Symphony runs for 27 bars!

Best Wishes for the concert in Philadelphia!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on May 04, 2023, 11:35:12 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 04, 2023, 11:08:53 AMe.g. I believe the opening melody of the Seventh Symphony runs for 27 bars!

Best Wishes for the concert in Philadelphia!

That opening of the Seventh might be the best example possible, with one of the most beautiful cello lines ever penned. I don't know how someone could hear that and think Bruckner isn't about melody.

And thanks, between the Te Deum and the Ninth (either of which I would hear without much else on the program), "Christus factus est" seems like a lovely bonus. PS, I'm going to try to sit in two totally different places in the hall, too.

Quote from: ultralinear on May 04, 2023, 11:13:38 AMExcellent!  N-S conducted the LPO in that same program here some years ago.  Would be very interested to hear what you make of it. :)

It is obviously a program that he believes in. I find it interesting to have the Ninth in between the two choral pieces, rather than at the end.

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on May 05, 2023, 12:50:47 AM
Quote from: brewski on May 04, 2023, 11:35:12 AMThat opening of the Seventh might be the best example possible, with one of the most beautiful cello lines ever penned. I don't know how someone could hear that and think Bruckner isn't about melody.

And thanks, between the Te Deum and the Ninth (either of which I would hear without much else on the program), "Christus factus est" seems like a lovely bonus. PS, I'm going to try to sit in two totally different places in the hall, too.

It is obviously a program that he believes in. I find it interesting to have the Ninth in between the two choral pieces, rather than at the end.

-Bruce

Absent the reconstituted/reconstructed finale available nowadays, performing the Te Deum immediately after the Ninth is the next best thing (and what Bruckner himself instructed). Personally, I never found the three-movement torso of the Ninth satisfying. Only with the finale the work gets its true meaning and shape. I have already seen Rattle performing the Ninth with the finale in Vienna and would also love to listen to this program you'll be attending live someday (I have tried it at home, it works!). Enjoy and let us know of your thoughts. 😎

Off-topic, but speaking of attending the same concert program twice, a few days ago I booked tickets for the two-out-of-three concerts of Staatskapelle Dresden/Chung performing Turangalîla-Symphonie (Semperoper, June 2024). Something to look forward to!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on May 05, 2023, 04:13:23 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 05, 2023, 12:50:47 AMOff-topic, but speaking of attending the same concert program twice, a few days ago I booked tickets for the two-out-of-three concerts of Staatskapelle Dresden/Chung performing Turangalîla-Symphonie (Semperoper, June 2024). Something to look forward to!

Oh yes, definitely, 100% to seeing this more than once!

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 05, 2023, 04:59:43 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 05, 2023, 12:50:47 AMAbsent the reconstituted/reconstructed finale available nowadays, performing the Te Deum immediately after the Ninth is the next best thing (and what Bruckner himself instructed). Personally, I never found the three-movement torso of the Ninth satisfying. Only with the finale the work gets its true meaning and shape. I have already seen Rattle performing the Ninth with finale in Vienna and would also love to listen to this program you'll be attending live someday (I have tried it at home, it works!). Enjoy and let us know of your thoughts. 😎

Off-topic, but speaking of attending the same concert program twice, a few days ago I booked tickets for the two-out-of-three concerts of Staatskapelle Dresden/Chung performing (Messiaen's) Turangalîla-Symphonie (Semperoper, June 2024). Something to look forward to!



The quartet-of-musicologists-completed Finale on the Rattle/Berlin Philharmonic CD is very exciting.

Professor Phillips has done further tinkering on it and now thinks his solo version is the best, given new realizations, if not quite discoveries.  No recording of it, but there was a performance back in the Autumn.

See:


Concerning Messiaen's Turangalîla-Symphonie: I recall seeing the score, and the score to Chronochromie, at my university's music library.  By chance I had just read one of Stravinsky's books written with (by?   ;)   )  Robert Craft, in which the composer offered a "compliment" to Messiaen by saying that Turangalîla contained some excellent movie music, if the movie were Charlie Chan in Indo-China.*


The score to Chronochromie seemed impenetrable, the score for Turangalîla less so.   ;D


* For you youngsters out there: "Charlie Chan" was a detective-character in a very popular series of books and movies in the 1920's-40's.  As I recall, the character was based on a Chinese-American detective in Hawaii.  The character later inspired another series of detective movies, this time about a Japanese-American called "Mr. Moto," which starred...Hungarian-born Peter Lorre!   :o

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: krummholz on May 05, 2023, 05:58:59 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 05, 2023, 04:59:43 AMThe quartet-of-musicologists-completed Finale on the Rattle/Berlin Philharmonic CD is very exciting.

Professor Phillips has done further tinkering on it and now thinks his solo version is the best, given new realizations, if not quite discoveries.  No recording of it, but there was a performance back in the Autumn.

See:



Until that MIDI rendering was posted, the *only* version I had ever heard of the Finale was the much earlier SPCM performing version that was conducted by Kurt Eichhorn back in the early 2000s. This version seems much more coherent, though I have trouble with the way that final ff D major chord is approached in this version, it doesn't quite work for me. Though the harmonic scheme sounds pretty much the same as in the earlier version, I thought the sudden drop to pp (or maybe ppp, haven't seen the score), and starting on a bare D-A fifth before a long crescendo on the Alleluia theme, worked better.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on May 05, 2023, 04:27:23 PM
Quote from: brewski on May 04, 2023, 09:44:42 AMMeanwhile, I'm planning to hear this concert twice, tomorrow afternoon and Saturday night. All-Bruckner programs don't show up that often, and I haven't heard the Te Deum live since the 1980s, when Muti did it with the Philadelphia Orchestra.

https://www.philorch.org/performances/our-season/events-and-tickets/2022-23-season/verizon-hall/yannick-and-bruckner/

-Bruce

This afternoon was terrific. I did not realize that the entire program—the motet Christus factus est, the Ninth Symphony, and the Te Deum—would be played without pause, for an uninterrupted 1 hour and 45 minutes. Yannick Nézet-Séguin cued everything perfectly, with not a peep of applause until the very end, when all hell broke loose.

The 100-voice chorus was magnificent, as were the four soloists in the Te Deum, and the orchestra sounded terrific. While I'm perfectly happy with the three-movement torso of the Ninth Symphony, adding the Te Deum as a finale is not an unattractive thesis, and at least here, proved overwhelming—perhaps because of the quality of the musicianship. (The Philadelphia horn section was particularly on fire today.)

To top it off, the place was packed. I mean, I'm wearily aware that Bruckner has more detractors than admirers, so to be in a sold-out hall with people cheering afterward was great fun.

I'm hearing the entire thing again on Saturday night (there are only two performances) and honestly, can't wait.

-Bruce


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 05, 2023, 06:04:17 PM
Quote from: brewski on May 05, 2023, 04:27:23 PMThis afternoon was terrific. I did not realize that the entire program—the motet Christus factus est, the Ninth Symphony, and the Te Deum—would be played without pause, for an uninterrupted 1 hour and 45 minutes. Yannick Nézet-Séguin cued everything perfectly, with not a peep of applause until the very end, when all hell broke loose.

The 100-voice chorus was magnificent, as were the four soloists in the Te Deum, and the orchestra sounded terrific. While I'm perfectly happy with the three-movement torso of the Ninth Symphony, adding the Te Deum as a finale is not an unattractive thesis, and at least here, proved overwhelming—perhaps because of the quality of the musicianship. (The Philadelphia horn section was particularly on fire today.)

To top it off, the place was packed. I mean, I'm wearily aware that Bruckner has more detractors than admirers, so to be in a sold-out hall with people cheering afterward was great fun.

I'm hearing the entire thing again on Saturday night (there are only two performances) and honestly, can't wait.

-Bruce




Great and very heartening news!

There are many good people still around who seek the best!

For several years in a row, under conductor Stefan Sanderling, The Toledo Symphony offered a Bruckner symphony performance every year in the local Catholic cathedral. 

A large crowd was always in attendance!  So, I am not necessarily sure that more detractors than admirers are around.

Or perhaps Brucknerians are very loyal and want to hear and support live performances.  (https://www.shutterstock.com/image-vector/holy-isolated-emoji-vector-260nw-1048164133.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on May 06, 2023, 04:20:40 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 05, 2023, 06:04:17 PMFor several years in a row, under conductor Stefan Sanderling, The Toledo Symphony offered a Bruckner symphony performance every year in the local Catholic cathedral. 

A few years ago, a bassist in the orchestra sent me a recording of one of those, the Eighth. Had never heard the Toledo group before, and was quite surprised—maybe I shouldn't have been—at how good it was.

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on May 06, 2023, 01:12:43 PM
Favorite recordings of the three masses? I do not know them nearly well enough.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Franco_Manitobain on May 06, 2023, 01:44:15 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 06, 2023, 01:12:43 PMFavorite recordings of the three masses? I do not know them nearly well enough.

Herreweghe for the F minor mass for me.

Jochum for the others.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 06, 2023, 03:33:07 PM
Quote from: brewski on May 06, 2023, 04:20:40 AMA few years ago, a bassist in the orchestra sent me a recording of one of those, the Eighth. Had never heard the Toledo group before, and was quite surprised—maybe I shouldn't have been—at how good it was.

-Bruce


I am betting that was our member ToledoBass, a.k.a. "Allan."   8)

I was there with my youngest son for that concert and it was marvelous to hear such an excellent performance live...in a cathedral!  Even my son, who does not praise anything or anybody very much at all, said "pretty good!"   8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on May 07, 2023, 07:23:34 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 06, 2023, 03:33:07 PMI am betting that was our member ToledoBass, a.k.a. "Allan."   8)

I was there with my youngest son for that concert and it was marvelous to hear such an excellent performance live...in a cathedral!  Even my son, who does not praise anything or anybody very much at all, said "pretty good!"   8)

Yes. (Sorry, I momentarily forgot his username.) And good for you for bringing your son! Conventional wisdom might be something like "kids will never groove on Bruckner" but it sounds like this had an impact. Who knows, in 20 years, your son may say, "Dad, thanks for taking me to that awesome concert."

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 07, 2023, 02:53:24 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 06, 2023, 01:12:43 PMFavorite recordings of the three masses? I do not know them nearly well enough.


Quote from: Franco_Manitobain on May 06, 2023, 01:44:15 PMHerreweghe for the F minor mass for me.

Jochum for the others.



Quote from: ultralinear on May 06, 2023, 02:33:46 PMJochum is a sound recommendation. There's not much wrong with the Best/Corydon set either.

Personal favourites:

(https://exactlabels.com/dx71764852/42382305/BrucknerDm.jpg)  (https://exactlabels.com/dx71764852/42382305/BrucknerEm.jpg)  (https://exactlabels.com/dx71764852/42382305/BrucknerFm.jpg)


Amen for Eugen Jochum (all 3 Masses) and Philippe Herreweghe.


Quote from: brewski on May 07, 2023, 07:23:34 AMYes. (Sorry, I momentarily forgot his username.) And good for you for bringing your son! Conventional wisdom might be something like "kids will never groove on Bruckner" but it sounds like this had an impact. Who knows, in 20 years, your son may say, "Dad, thanks for taking me to that awesome concert."

-Bruce


I look forward to that!   ;)

I do wonder occasionally what will happen to my scores and CD's, since none of my children are really interested. 

We do now have a grandson, 5 months old, so I am hoping that perhaps his ears are like mine...or can be persuaded to become like mine!   :o   8)

But, we live 1100 miles apart!  So, it will be hard to have much influence.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on May 07, 2023, 05:28:34 PM
Quote from: mahlertitan on April 06, 2007, 03:57:27 PMu r a lucky dude.

+1
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 07, 2023, 05:47:10 PM
Quote from: brewski on May 07, 2023, 07:23:34 AMYes. (Sorry, I momentarily forgot his username.) And good for you for bringing your son! Conventional wisdom might be something like "kids will never groove on Bruckner" but it sounds like this had an impact. Who knows, in 20 years, your son may say, "Dad, thanks for taking me to that awesome concert."

-Bruce

I bought my first Bruckner LP when I was 15 (and had heard all the symphonies by age 18)... that's why I always regard Bruckner as just a normal composer (though extraordinary of course).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on May 07, 2023, 06:00:36 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 07, 2023, 05:47:10 PMI bought my first Bruckner LP when I was 15 (and had heard all the symphonies by age 18)... that's why I always regard Bruckner as just a normal composer (though extraordinary of course).

Wow. How lucky to experience them so early.

On a related note, for the Bruckner 9th on Friday afternoon (Yannick and Philadelphia), I noticed a group of school kids galloping upstairs, presumably a class trip. I would love to know their thoughts after the concert, even if 99% were indifferent.

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lordlance on May 08, 2023, 01:26:43 AM
A Sixth for those always on the lookout for great new recordings:


A propulsive interpretation for those like me who dislike measured/leisurely Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on May 08, 2023, 04:12:12 PM
Quote from: lordlance on May 08, 2023, 01:26:43 AMA Sixth for those always on the lookout for great new recordings:


A propulsive interpretation for those like me who dislike measured/leisurely Bruckner.

Says video unavailable.  What was it?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lordlance on May 08, 2023, 05:00:11 PM
Quote from: Daverz on May 08, 2023, 04:12:12 PMSays video unavailable.  What was it?

A live performance of the Sixth by Gielen conducting the ORF Radio Symphonieorchester Wien (1993)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on May 09, 2023, 03:46:06 AM
The Hänssler recording of the 6th with Gielen is also very good but I think his best Bruckner (I have not heard all of it, they dug out radio and live recordings for a complete box) are #5 and #7.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: relm1 on May 09, 2023, 05:16:13 AM
I thought this new Bruckner 4 release was excellent.  Doesn't displace my favorite but very riveting performance.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQ2Nzg2OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2Nzk1MTc4Mzh9)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: W.A. Mozart on May 09, 2023, 07:24:24 AM
What do you think about the symphony 1?

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on May 09, 2023, 07:28:45 AM
Quote from: brewskiquote author=brewski link=msg=1511678 date=1683511236]
Wow. How lucky to experience them so early.

On a related note, for the Bruckner 9th on Friday afternoon (Yannick and Philadelphia), I noticed a group of school kids galloping upstairs, presumably a class trip. I would love to know their thoughts after the concert, even if 99% were indifferent.

-Bruce

I hope at least one of them found it memorable.  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on May 09, 2023, 09:41:23 AM
Meanwhile, because I apparently can't get enough Bruckner this week, I stumbled across this terrific Eighth with the Euskadiko Orchestra (https://en.euskadikoorkestra.eus/) (Basque National Orchestra) and conductor Robert Trevino, recorded last December. How have I not heard this group before?


-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Spotted Horses on May 09, 2023, 09:48:55 AM
Quote from: brewski on May 09, 2023, 09:41:23 AMMeanwhile, because I apparently can't get enough Bruckner this week, I stumbled across this terrific Eighth with the Euskadiko Orchestra (https://en.euskadikoorkestra.eus/) (Basque National Orchestra) and conductor Robert Trevino, recorded last December. How have I not heard this group before?


-Bruce

The thought that occurs to me is, "why is there a colossal microphone 30 cm away from the violinist. Is she the recording engineer's daughter?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on May 09, 2023, 09:56:38 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on May 09, 2023, 09:48:55 AMThe thought that occurs to me is, "why is there a colossal microphone 30 cm away from the violinist. Is she the recording engineer's daughter?

;D

Gotta make sure we hear that cadenza!

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: toledobass on May 09, 2023, 12:15:34 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 06, 2023, 03:33:07 PMI am betting that was our member ToledoBass, a.k.a. "Allan."   8)

I was there with my youngest son for that concert and it was marvelous to hear such an excellent performance live...in a cathedral!  Even my son, who does not praise anything or anybody very much at all, said "pretty good!"   8)

👋🏽
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: toledobass on May 09, 2023, 12:16:20 PM
Quote from: brewski on May 07, 2023, 07:23:34 AMYes. (Sorry, I momentarily forgot his username.) And good for you for bringing your son! Conventional wisdom might be something like "kids will never groove on Bruckner" but it sounds like this had an impact. Who knows, in 20 years, your son may say, "Dad, thanks for taking me to that awesome concert."

-Bruce

😎👋🏽
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 09, 2023, 01:19:14 PM
Quote from: toledobass on May 09, 2023, 12:16:20 PM😎👋🏽


Hi Allan!  Thanks for stopping by!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on May 09, 2023, 05:33:07 PM
Quote from: toledobass on May 09, 2023, 12:16:20 PM😎👋🏽

Allan! The bass from Toledo returns! 8)

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: toledobass on May 09, 2023, 06:44:38 PM
Quote from: brewski on May 09, 2023, 05:33:07 PMAllan! The bass from Toledo returns! 8)

-Bruce

Greetings sir. I trust all is well and that the cocktails still delicious!

A
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on May 09, 2023, 07:24:51 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 09, 2023, 03:46:06 AMThe Hänssler recording of the 6th with Gielen is also very good but I think his best Bruckner (I have not heard all of it, they dug out radio and live recordings for a complete box) are #5 and #7.

I happen to have the Gielen set handy (I'm planning to give it another listen soon) Symphonies 1, 8, and 9 are "Live-Aufnahme"; the rest are "Studio-Aufnahme".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lordlance on May 09, 2023, 11:43:03 PM
Another new Bruckner 4 alongside the Dausgaard/Bergen:

(https://rovimusic.rovicorp.com/image.jpg?c=wOHTS5bKuLZxBoi1Y6PzZA4Q1ghY8VaPylnm7PwcKNY=&f=4)

Poschner's third recording of the 4th after the 1876 and 1878-80 versions. Once the Poschner and Schaller cycles are complete, we shall have three cycles that document Bruckner's various versions of his symphonies (Rozhdestvensky being the first.) Not bad. If you include the Hrusa set, then of the 4th alone we have 4 different conductors tackling the multiple editions.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: relm1 on May 10, 2023, 05:50:55 AM
I love that wall of sound from the low brass in Bruckner 8.  It's one of the great trombone moments.  Playing loud, open chords like these makes vibrates your whole body when you play it.  You feel the frequencies throughout your body - it's a very difficult thing to describe to those who haven't experienced it but you are inside the music, enveloped by it.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 10, 2023, 07:30:44 AM
Quote from: relm1 on May 10, 2023, 05:50:55 AMI love that wall of sound from the low brass in Bruckner 8.  It's one of the great trombone moments.  Playing loud, open chords like these makes vibrates your whole body when you play it.  You feel the frequencies throughout your body - it's a very difficult thing to describe to those who haven't experienced it but you are inside the music, enveloped by it.


they make a great sound - but hearing just a low brass section playing just low brass bits is VERY NICHE!! Has anyone ever arranged a full Bruckner Symphony for Brass Ensemble?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on May 10, 2023, 07:51:54 AM
Quote from: JBS on May 09, 2023, 07:24:51 PMI happen to have the Gielen set handy (I'm planning to give it another listen soon) Symphonies 1, 8, and 9 are "Live-Aufnahme"; the rest are "Studio-Aufnahme".
There were also studio recordings with Gielen of 8 (I have it) and (I think) of 9 that had been on intercord (and maybe other labels) in the late 1980s or early 1990s. For the box they must have opted for different live recordings. (I also think the #2 is a broadcast recording that was never available before; from the 50s through the 70s there were quite a few radio productions that never appeared on LP/CD. AFAIK most of the SWF Rosbaud boxes are based on such radio productions.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on May 10, 2023, 08:46:52 AM
Quote from: toledobass on May 09, 2023, 06:44:38 PMGreetings sir. I trust all is well and that the cocktails still delicious!

A

Thank you. Life is definitely in the "not bad" category, and perhaps it is time to create a new drink, The Toledo Bass! Something big, something substantial, with lots of low frequences. ;D (Feel free to recommend ingredients, though not here—perhaps in the "What are you drinking?" thread.)

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on May 10, 2023, 03:18:11 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 10, 2023, 07:30:44 AMthey make a great sound - but hearing just a low brass section playing just low brass bits is VERY NICHE!! Has anyone ever arranged a full Bruckner Symphony for Brass Ensemble?

The 4th might survive such treatment.

I'm curious about the organ transcriptions of complete Bruckner symphonies. I also chanced upon the score of a piano transcription of Bruckner's 5th, while browsing on Amazon yesterday, and I'm wondering if anyone has played it or any other Bruckner symphony on solo piano.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Franco_Manitobain on May 10, 2023, 03:51:54 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 10, 2023, 03:18:11 PMThe 4th might survive such treatment.

I'm curious about the organ transcriptions of complete Bruckner symphonies. I also chanced upon the score of a piano transcription of Bruckner's 5th, while browsing on Amazon yesterday, and I'm wondering if anyone has played it or any other Bruckner symphony on solo piano.

No, but there is a recording of Gerd Schaller performing Bruckner's 9th on an organ. Not interested in it however.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on May 10, 2023, 07:24:03 PM
Quote from: Franco_Manitobain on May 10, 2023, 03:51:54 PMNo, but there is a recording of Gerd Schaller performing Bruckner's 9th on an organ. Not interested in it however.

Schaller has also done the 5th.
Oehms is releasing a series that will cover all the symphonies, including the Nullte. It seems to reached the 6th.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51sYhHKcgvL._UX420_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg)

Amazon shows three other individual recordings
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81vb02kIYTL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/610evJMw42L._UX420_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61gh0HrWF6L._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)

Other than Rogg I know nothing about the organists involved.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 11, 2023, 02:24:05 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 10, 2023, 03:18:11 PMand I'm wondering if anyone has played it or any other Bruckner symphony on solo piano.
There are the transcriptions for piano duo too, but I know nothing about the pianists:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-11DEdkx0WiE/YE63XhVgIvI/AAAAAAABB9Q/KsoWlYmjIEMFbceVjqlHa0aozez_Rt70QCPcBGAYYCw/s1390/Bruckner%2B-%2B10%2BSymphonies%2B-%2BPiano%2BDuo%2BDino%2BSequi%2B%2526%2BGerhard%2BHofer%2B10CDs.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 11, 2023, 05:26:40 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 11, 2023, 02:24:05 AMThere are the transcriptions for piano duo too, but I know nothing about the pianists:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-11DEdkx0WiE/YE63XhVgIvI/AAAAAAABB9Q/KsoWlYmjIEMFbceVjqlHa0aozez_Rt70QCPcBGAYYCw/s1390/Bruckner%2B-%2B10%2BSymphonies%2B-%2BPiano%2BDuo%2BDino%2BSequi%2B%2526%2BGerhard%2BHofer%2B10CDs.jpg)


Do you know who arranged the transcriptions?  I believe Gustav Mahler transcribed the Symphony #3 and Josef Schalk seems to have arranged the Symphony #5 for 2 pianos: whether he butchered it in the same way that he did the orchestral score, I do not know.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 12, 2023, 03:53:53 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 11, 2023, 05:26:40 PMDo you know who arranged the transcriptions?  I believe Gustav Mahler transcribed the Symphony #3 and Josef Schalk seems to have arranged the Symphony #5 for 2 pianos: whether he butchered it in the same way that he did the orchestral score, I do not know.
I saw Symphony No. 0 was arranged by August Stradal, No. 1 and 4 by Ferdinand Löwe, No. 2,6 and 8 by Joseph Schalk, No. 3 by Gustav Mahler, No. 5 by Otto Singer, No. 7 by Joseph and Franz Schalk, and No. 9 by Joseph Schalk and Ferdinand Löwe.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lordlance on May 12, 2023, 10:35:02 AM
I recently hear two Sinopoli performances:

(https://resources.tidal.com/images/da273805/ee3f/42e6/9181/3c85c32de304/640x640.jpg)

(https://images.universal-music.de/img/assets/106/106946/4/720/sinfonie-nr-9-d-moll-0028945758723.jpg)

The Ninth was really well done - truly grandiose as Bruckner needs in contrast with the Poschner 4th that I posted earlier - that one was underwhelming in climaxes but that may well be a completely different approach to Bruckner of "fast and lean" - the latter sounds antithetical to Bruckner.

The Third was good too except for the bizarre code of the 3rd movement which seems slapped on haphazardly.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 13, 2023, 06:03:53 AM
Quote from: lordlance on May 12, 2023, 10:35:02 AMI recently hear two Sinopoli performances:

(https://resources.tidal.com/images/da273805/ee3f/42e6/9181/3c85c32de304/640x640.jpg)

(https://images.universal-music.de/img/assets/106/106946/4/720/sinfonie-nr-9-d-moll-0028945758723.jpg)

The Ninth was really well done - truly grandiose as Bruckner needs in contrast with the Poschner 4th that I posted earlier - that one was underwhelming in climaxes but that may well be a completely different approach to Bruckner of "fast and lean" - the latter sounds antithetical to Bruckner.

The Third was good too except for the bizarre coda of the 3rd movement which seems slapped on haphazardly.


Thanks for the reviews!

Concerning your last sentence: do you mean that you find the coda itself to be bizarre, or that the way Sinopoli conducted it made it seem bizarre and "slapped on haphazardly"?


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on May 13, 2023, 09:12:50 AM
Yes, thank you for the reviews, Lordlance. Very curious to hear Sinopoli's Bruckner now.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on May 14, 2023, 12:40:43 PM
The original version of the 3rd is really blowing my mind right now. Bad Brucknerian that I am, this is the first I've really noticed any substantial differences between different versions (aside from things like hearing/not hearing the cymbal in the adagio of the 7th etc). I don't have the score, so it's hard for me to say exactly what's different, but it seems that Bruckner's original vision for the symphony was quite different than what it would become in the revisions; it seems much more spacious and tranquil than the more dramatic symphony that would emerge in the later versions.

I'm listening to the Tintner/Royal Scottish on Naxos, and possibly interpretation is a factor in my impressions, too. I'm quite sure his tempos are slower than any other recording I have, definitely coming off as "Zen Bruckner" à la Celibidache.

If I wasn't already (just recently!) convinced of the greatness of Bruckner's 3rd symphony, hearing the original version would have put to rest any lingering doubts I might have still had.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 14, 2023, 02:29:26 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 14, 2023, 12:40:43 PMThe original version of the 3rd is really blowing my mind right now. Bad Brucknerian that I am, this is the first I've really noticed any substantial differences between different versions (aside from things like hearing/not hearing the cymbal in the adagio of the 7th etc). I don't have the score, so it's hard for me to say exactly what's different, but it seems that Bruckner's original vision for the symphony was quite different than what it would become in the revisions; it seems much more spacious and tranquil than the more dramatic symphony that would emerge in the later versions.

I'm listening to the Tintner/Royal Scottish on Naxos, and possibly interpretation is a factor in my impressions, too. I'm quite sure his tempos are slower than any other recording I have, definitely coming off as "Zen Bruckner" à la Celibidache.

If I wasn't already (just recently!) convinced of the greatness of Bruckner's 3rd symphony, hearing the original version would have put to rest any lingering doubts I might have still had.
I would be very curious to listen to the original version of Bruckner No.3, I think I've only got 1889 versions; the 1873 version had many quotes from Wagner's operas which were cut afterwards in the following revisions!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on May 14, 2023, 03:05:56 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 14, 2023, 02:29:26 PMI would be very curious to listen to the original version of Bruckner No.3, I think I've only got 1889 versions; the 1873 version had many quotes from Wagner's operas which were cut afterwards in the following revisions!

You being much more familiar with Wagner than I am would surely appreciate them more. I didn't hear them but I also didn't know exactly what to listen for. Anyway, check out the Tintner! It really was an excellent performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on May 14, 2023, 03:40:49 PM
The original Third is a magical experience and yes, totally different - the big noticeable change is that in the first movement, there is a fake recapitulation which leads into a hushed, solemn, religious episode that I think is a quote from Wagner. Once that episode is over, the real recapitulation arrives.

I love a fast, vigorous, youthful Third in the final version (Szell's is my quite unpopular favorite) but the Tintner original version is a truly unique vision. I think you'll find most people agree it is a milestone achievement in Bruckner recordings.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on May 14, 2023, 06:48:31 PM
I seem to be in a minority here.
Tintner's recordings of the First, Second, and Third Symphonies were my introduction to Bruckner. They nearly bored me to death. Thank God I perservered with Herreweghe's Seventh...

The only worse Bruckner recording I've ever heard is Colin Davis's Sixth on LSO.

ETA: Celibadache's Fourth might be worse, now that I think of it. But at least Celibadache was bad in an interesting way.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 14, 2023, 07:31:24 PM
Quote from: JBS on May 14, 2023, 06:48:31 PMI seem to be in a minority here.
Tintner's recordings of the First, Second, and Third Symphonies were my introduction to Bruckner. They nearly bored me to death. Thank God I perservered with Herreweghe's Seventh...

The only worse Bruckner recording I've ever heard is Colin Davis's Sixth on LSO.

ETA: Celibadache's Fourth might be worse, now that I think of it. But at least Celibadache was bad in an interesting way.
Interesting how tastes differ. Those four recordings you mention are my favourites for those works!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lordlance on May 15, 2023, 02:24:26 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 13, 2023, 06:03:53 AMConcerning your last sentence: do you mean that you find the coda itself to be bizarre, or that the way Sinopoli conducted it made it seem bizarre and "slapped on haphazardly"?

The coda as written by Bruckner is bizarre. Sounds completely unnecessary.

Quote from: vers la flamme on May 14, 2023, 12:40:43 PMThe original version of the 3rd is really blowing my mind right now. Bad Brucknerian that I am, this is the first I've really noticed any substantial differences between different versions (aside from things like hearing/not hearing the cymbal in the adagio of the 7th etc). I don't have the score, so it's hard for me to say exactly what's different, but it seems that Bruckner's original vision for the symphony was quite different than what it would become in the revisions; it seems much more spacious and tranquil than the more dramatic symphony that would emerge in the later versions.

I can't tell Bruckner revisions either precisely except when it sounds different than what I recall. For my money, I can't stand the original Fourth - a really bad edit of the work we know and love.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on May 15, 2023, 02:39:59 PM
Quote from: JBS on May 14, 2023, 06:48:31 PMI seem to be in a minority here.
Tintner's recordings of the First, Second, and Third Symphonies were my introduction to Bruckner. They nearly bored me to death. Thank God I perservered with Herreweghe's Seventh...

The only worse Bruckner recording I've ever heard is Colin Davis's Sixth on LSO.

ETA: Celibadache's Fourth might be worse, now that I think of it. But at least Celibadache was bad in an interesting way.

I like fast vigorous Bruckner now, especially when the speed is coupled with lyrical warmth and heart rather than just loud blasts of sound. Herreweghe, Walter, Harnoncourt in some symphonies. I have completely lost interest in the Celibidache approach. But Tintner 3 still has a place for me.

The problem is probably that it was your introduction to the composer. Bruckner is a terrible guy for "starting from the beginning"!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on May 15, 2023, 03:20:39 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 15, 2023, 02:39:59 PMI like fast vigorous Bruckner now, especially when the speed is coupled with lyrical warmth and heart rather than just loud blasts of sound. Herreweghe, Walter, Harnoncourt in some symphonies. I have completely lost interest in the Celibidache approach. But Tintner 3 still has a place for me.

The problem is probably that it was your introduction to the composer. Bruckner is a terrible guy for "starting from the beginning"!

Starting from (near) the end worked well enough for me—well, I started with 4, then 9, then 7, then I was hooked.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on May 15, 2023, 03:31:30 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 15, 2023, 02:39:59 PMI like fast vigorous Bruckner now, especially when the speed is coupled with lyrical warmth and heart rather than just loud blasts of sound. Herreweghe, Walter, Harnoncourt in some symphonies. I have completely lost interest in the Celibidache approach. But Tintner 3 still has a place for me.

The problem is probably that it was your introduction to the composer. Bruckner is a terrible guy for "starting from the beginning"!

I happen to be listening to Gielen's recording [RSO Saarbrucken 1968] of the Second now from the SWR set; the first movement at least matches your description of fast vigorous but lyrical. I'm liking it so far.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on May 15, 2023, 03:55:24 PM
Heinz Rögner made some pretty zippy Bruckner recordings for, I think, Berlin Classics.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on May 15, 2023, 05:29:59 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 15, 2023, 03:20:39 PMStarting from (near) the end worked well enough for me—well, I started with 4, then 9, then 7, then I was hooked.

I started with 4 and 9 Jochum/Dresden.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on May 15, 2023, 07:10:24 PM
Quote from: DavidW on May 15, 2023, 05:29:59 PMI started with 4 and 9 Jochum/Dresden.

Barenboim/Berlin Philharmonic for me. I still LOVE that cycle, though I think I'm the only one who does.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on May 16, 2023, 06:00:17 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 15, 2023, 07:10:24 PMBarenboim/Berlin Philharmonic for me. I still LOVE that cycle, though I think I'm the only one who does.

That is easy to stream so I'll give it a shot.  I've been meaning to for several months but I'm not exactly focused or organized in my listening.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lordlance on May 16, 2023, 03:19:08 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 15, 2023, 03:20:39 PMStarting from (near) the end worked well enough for me—well, I started with 4, then 9, then 7, then I was hooked.

I started with the 9th possibly and the second movement was possibly why I stuck around. That and 6.I were just such fun to listen to.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Franco_Manitobain on May 17, 2023, 06:21:21 AM
Put in an order today for this!  Cross-posted from purchases today thread.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA2MDY4Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MzA5MjcyOTR9)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on May 17, 2023, 06:50:41 AM
Quote from: Franco_Manitobain on May 17, 2023, 06:21:21 AMPut in an order today for this!  Cross-posted from purchases today thread.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA2MDY4Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MzA5MjcyOTR9)

One of my favorite cycles!  Highly consistent, very intense.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on May 17, 2023, 06:58:32 AM
Quote from: Franco_Manitobain on May 17, 2023, 06:21:21 AMPut in an order today for this!  Cross-posted from purchases today thread.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA2MDY4Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MzA5MjcyOTR9)

How much? I'd love to hear this.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Franco_Manitobain on May 17, 2023, 07:04:42 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 17, 2023, 06:58:32 AMHow much? I'd love to hear this.

It was $55 Cdn on Amazon Canada.

I have been wanting to get this for quite some time now.

Based on David Hurwitz recommendation.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Franco_Manitobain on May 17, 2023, 07:06:00 AM
Quote from: DavidW on May 17, 2023, 06:50:41 AMOne of my favorite cycles!  Highly consistent, very intense.

Was something I wanted to get for long time since it is generally very highly regarded and was Hurwitz's top cycle choice.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on May 17, 2023, 07:07:31 AM
I mentioned that Jochum 4 and 9 introduced me to Bruckner.  Well the second cd I bought was the Skrowaczeski 7 for $5 because it was on the bargain label Arte Nova (this is also well before Hurwitz would sing its praises btw)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 17, 2023, 04:06:48 PM
A good number of years ago, we had an epic* blind-listening survey about the best Symphony #6 recording.

I think Stanislas Skrowaczewski came in very high!

i.e. It took a good number of weeks and a good number of members were involved!

I found the link: from 2014!!!

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23157.720.html (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23157.720.html)


The winner:

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 06, 2014, 05:38:39 PMAnd the winner is...

F1
First Place

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61lW6aYeVsL.jpg)

Sergiu Celibidache
Munich Philharmonic Orchestra



Those of us in the Church of Saint Eugen Jochum begged to differ!   ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on May 17, 2023, 04:57:45 PM
What a surprise that neither Jochum recording made it!  I like that Klemperer made it to the top.  I haven't heard Wand nor Celibidache in the 6th.  Guess I'll have to give them a try.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on May 17, 2023, 05:38:29 PM
Quote from: DavidW on May 17, 2023, 04:57:45 PMWhat a surprise that neither Jochum recording made it!  I like that Klemperer made it to the top.  I haven't heard Wand nor Celibidache in the 6th.  Guess I'll have to give them a try.


I was shocked about the Jochum decision, but...thus spake the jury!   ;)

Yes: the Guenter Wand effort was excellent!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on May 18, 2023, 02:56:53 AM
Interesting, I love the 6th, I will have to hear that Celibidache. I do love his 4th, though I have my doubts that the style he employs would be as effective in all of the symphonies.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: JBS on May 18, 2023, 05:54:04 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 18, 2023, 02:56:53 AMInteresting, I love the 6th, I will have to hear that Celibidache. I do love his 4th, though I have my doubts that the style he employs would be as effective in all of the symphonies.

De Gustibus! De Gustibus!

I thought Celibadache's Fourth was horrible...however his Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth sounded very good to me.

ATM I'm listening to Gielen's recording of the Third as part of a repeat traversal of his Bruckner cycle. At least for the first three symphonies he does an excellent job.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 04, 2023, 06:47:26 AM
Recently I was talking with a friend about Bruckner and the original version-vs.-revised-version topic came up.

Georg Tintner makes a very good for the original of the Third Symphony!

Highly recommended!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on June 07, 2023, 06:51:16 AM
Quote from: Cato on June 04, 2023, 06:47:26 AMRecently I was talking with a friend about Bruckner and the original version-vs.-revised-version topic came up.

Georg Tintner makes a very good for the original of the Third Symphony!

Highly recommended!


Tinter got me into the third and remains my favorite.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: foxandpeng on June 09, 2023, 08:29:53 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 07, 2023, 06:51:16 AMTinter got me into the third and remains my favorite.

Mine too...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 19, 2023, 08:13:45 AM
This is from an Anton-Bruckner website, and contains a download of a "mystery" recording of the Symphony #4.


https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/june23/ (https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/june23/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Why Listen to Bruckner?
Post by: Cato on June 21, 2023, 03:10:37 AM
A very enthusiastic fan (some might consider him too enthusiastic) has placed this on YouTube:

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on June 21, 2023, 02:59:48 PM
Quote from: Cato on June 21, 2023, 03:10:37 AMA very enthusiastic fan (some might consider him too enthusiastic) has placed this on YouTube:


I watched that, but not sure I agreed with his assessment of the music; or at least he's listening to Bruckner for different reasons than I am.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on June 22, 2023, 07:54:13 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 21, 2023, 02:59:48 PMI watched that, but not sure I agreed with his assessment of the music; or at least he's listening to Bruckner for different reasons than I am.

But... but... each note is an exploration of the sheer force that music can carry! :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

It is truly APOCALYPTIC! ;)  ;)

Oh man it is so over the top.  I also like how the person who wrote the script is not the person reading it out.  Youtube has truly gone from honest video essays from the everyman to high production videos from people looking to make a career out of it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on June 22, 2023, 08:37:45 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 22, 2023, 07:54:13 AMBut... but... each note is an exploration of the sheer force that music can carry! :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

It is truly APOCALYPTIC! ;)  ;)

Oh man it is so over the top.  I also like how the person who wrote the script is not the person reading it out.  Youtube has truly gone from honest video essays from the everyman to high production videos from people looking to make a career out of it.

I'm listening now, and can't guarantee I will bail before it's over—though it's scarcely 15 minutes.  >:D

Perhaps some reassurance, though, that even as an avid Bruckner fan, I haven't gone over the edge.  ;D

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on June 22, 2023, 08:40:57 AM
Quote from: brewski on June 22, 2023, 08:37:45 AMI'm listening now, and can't guarantee I will bail before it's over—though it's scarcely 15 minutes.  >:D

Perhaps some reassurance, though, that even as an avid Bruckner fan, I haven't gone over the edge.  ;D

-Bruce

Aaaannnd...about halfway through, I couldn't take it anymore. When he started the analysis (or "analysis") of the Eighth, I asked, "Why am I watching this?" and couldn't come up with an answer.

Still, fascinating to see something from the far end of the Bruckner Appreciation Spectrum Society (BASS, which I just made up).

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on June 22, 2023, 09:03:43 AM
Quote from: brewski on June 22, 2023, 08:40:57 AM(BASS, which I just made up).

-Bruce

NAIS! (New Acronym Identification Survey)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on June 22, 2023, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on June 22, 2023, 09:03:43 AMNAIS! (New Acronym Identification Survey)

 ;D

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lunar22 on June 23, 2023, 08:00:24 AM
Quote from: Cato on June 04, 2023, 06:47:26 AMGeorg Tintner makes a very good for the original of the Third Symphony!

I find Tintner definitive in no. 3 and until I finally got round to investing in the Jochum Dresden at bargain price quite recently, Tintner was my only complete set of the greatest symphonies ever written. This is partly because I prefer the original versions in every case where he has chosen them -- even arguably in the 8th though I know that one's pretty controversial. I still think Jochum is the greatest Bruckner interpreter but is let down by his choice of versions. Fortunately this doesn't matter in no. 6 where he is sans pareil although Celi works wonders in this work -- one of his greatest achievements. I've never liked Klemperer  that much here -- his second movement is too matter of fact. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on June 23, 2023, 08:03:39 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 22, 2023, 07:54:13 AMBut... but... each note is an exploration of the sheer force that music can carry! :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

It is truly APOCALYPTIC! ;)  ;)

Oh man it is so over the top.
  I also like how the person who wrote the script is not the person reading it out.  Youtube has truly gone from honest video essays from the everyman to high production videos from people looking to make a career out of it.


Quote from: brewski on June 22, 2023, 08:37:45 AMI'm listening now, and can't guarantee I will bail before it's over—though it's scarcely 15 minutes.  >:D

Perhaps some reassurance, though, that even as an avid Bruckner fan, I haven't gone over the edge.  ;D

-Bruce

Quote from: brewski on June 22, 2023, 08:40:57 AMAaaannnd...about halfway through, I couldn't take it anymore. When he started the analysis (or "analysis") of the Eighth, I asked, "Why am I watching this?" and couldn't come up with an answer.

Still, fascinating to see something from the far end of the Bruckner Appreciation Spectrum Society (BASS, which I just made up).

-Bruce


Still, fascinating to see something from the far end of the Bruckner Appreciation Spectrum Society (BASS, which I just made up).


Yes, which is why I offered it!  ;D  Just soooo "over-the-top," it was hard to believe.

"And I thought I was the ultimate Bruckner fan!"

The author of this video-essay wins that contest!  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on June 23, 2023, 01:30:42 PM
Quote from: lunar22 on June 23, 2023, 08:00:24 AMI find Tintner definitive in no. 3 and until I finally got round to investing in the Jochum Dresden at bargain price quite recently, Tintner was my only complete set of the greatest symphonies ever written. This is partly because I prefer the original versions in every case where he has chosen them -- even arguably in the 8th though I know that one's pretty controversial. I still think Jochum is the greatest Bruckner interpreter but is let down by his choice of versions. Fortunately this doesn't matter in no. 6 where he is sans pareil although Celi works wonders in this work -- one of his greatest achievements. I've never liked Klemperer  that much here -- his second movement is too matter of fact. 

I need to listen to Tintner's no.3 again soon. Jochum/Dresden was the one who made the 3rd click for me; hearing Tintner's then ramped up my enthusiasm to a new level.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on June 24, 2023, 07:28:36 PM
Quote from: Cato on June 21, 2023, 03:10:37 AMA very enthusiastic fan (some might consider him too enthusiastic) has placed this on YouTube:


I saw that, and have been wondering whether it's worth checking out. Since I'm always in the market for anything which will help me stay awake at work, I'll probably sit through it tonight...  or try to.  ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on June 24, 2023, 11:54:52 PM
Quote from: lunar22 on June 23, 2023, 08:00:24 AMI still think Jochum is the greatest Bruckner interpreter but is let down by his choice of versions. 

The obsession with recording every version was not a thing back then.  I'm glad Jochum didn't get bogged down with that modern indulgence.

Also, the 1877 version of the 3rd is rarer on record, so obviously superior because of its exclusivity. ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lunar22 on June 25, 2023, 12:38:03 AM
of course in Jochum's day, the relatively recent editions were not known so I can hardly blame him. Nevertheless, there was often a choice between Novak and Haas for instance and if my memory serves me correctly, Jochum did tend to the shortest (i.e most butchered) versions. But I don't want to start a new discussion about the merits of respective editions-- there have been plenty of those and they can get rather heated (for instance Hurwitz has very strong opinions on the matter).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 25, 2023, 01:24:25 AM
Quote from: lunar22 on June 25, 2023, 12:38:03 AM- there have been plenty of those and they can get rather heated (for instance Hurwitz has very strong opinions on the matter).
I can guess which side he comes down on  ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 01, 2023, 04:15:19 PM
Today I discovered that, when my niece - at c. age 15, ten years ago - first heard Bruckner's Symphony IX as played by the Los Angeles Philharmonic under Gustavo Dudamel, she was sobbing during the last minutes of the Adagio.

"She had the same reaction, when she heard Mahler's Resurrection Symphony," said my brother.

"I just have highly emotional reactions to those composers!" said my niece.   8)

Completely comprehensible!   :-*

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on July 02, 2023, 12:30:15 AM
Quote from: Cato on July 01, 2023, 04:15:19 PMToday I discovered that, when my niece - at c. age 15, ten years ago - first heard Bruckner's Symphony IX as played by the Los Angeles Philharmonic under Gustavo Dudamel, she was sobbing during the last minutes of the Adagio.

"She had the same reaction, when she heard Mahler's Resurrection Symphony," said my brother.

"I just have highly emotional reactions to those composers!" said my niece.  8)

Completely comprehensible!  :-*

I was obsessing over Bach, Beethoven and Brahms at fifteen, both Bruckner and Mahler were still a couple of years away. On that account l envy your niece, just a bit.  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 03, 2023, 04:57:20 AM
Quote from: LKB on July 02, 2023, 12:30:15 AMI was obsessing over Bach, Beethoven and Brahms at fifteen, both Bruckner and Mahler were still a couple of years away. On that account I envy your niece, just a bit.  ;)


Thanks to the Music Department of our public library (in Dayton, here in Ohio, home of The Wright Brothers), I had been going through the music of Bach and Beethoven, Mozart and a few others with study scores around age 11 or so, and then hopped onto The Bruckner Train, when they acquired the score of the Seventh Symphony and started offering the DGG Eugen Jochum set of symphonies as they appeared in the early 1960's.

I also read Gradus ad Parnassum by Johann Fux (pronounced "Foox," i.e. German for "fox"   ;)  ) and other such books on harmony (e.g. Walter Piston's) and counterpoint.

Yes, I suppose I was an autodidact at an early age, which term I did not know.  Only one time did anyone question me about what I was listening to and reading: a lady librarian once looked at me quizzically and asked: "Do you understand all this stuff?" 

I recall being a little miffed, but stayed polite: "Yes, I believe I do."  😇
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 10, 2023, 11:31:20 AM
Today I revisited...



"Die Sechste ist die Keckste," (The Sixth is the sassiest) said Bruckner.


Certainly that might apply to the outer movements and the Scherzo, but not to the marvelous Adagio, which has always been near or at the top of my favorite slow movements.

The movement's Funeral March, and its transformation at the end into a hesitant, but irresistible, ascension of peacefulness, have always impressed me.

Musical perfection!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 10, 2023, 05:12:22 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 10, 2023, 11:31:20 AMToday I revisited...



"Die Sechste ist die Keckste," (The Sixth is the sassiest) said Bruckner.


Certainly that might apply to the outer movements and the Scherzo, but not to the marvelous Adagio, which has always been near or at the top of my favorite slow movements.

The movement's Funeral March, and its transformation at the end into a hesitant, but irresistible, ascension of peacefulness, have always impressed me.

Musical perfection!



I have offered this in earlier years.


Some years ago, I inserted Bruckner's Sixth Symphony into a scene in a novel, a novel about children,  but not necessarily for children.

In the scene, Tom Schranker, an 8th-Grade organist, is playing the organ at a Catholic Church for the funeral of a young child killed in a bicycle accident in the middle of the summer.  He has decided that the Funeral March from Bruckner's Sixth Symphony would be perfect as a post-Holy Communion meditation.

Quote"...a melody from Tom's musical memory began playing, as he read the obituary, which mentioned Augie's pride in being an altar boy at St. Mary's and his joy in playing baseball.  The melody was a somber funeral march, complete with muffled drumbeats.  The important thing, however, was that the second part of the march rose somewhat, and seemed to aspire toward hope, or at least to counterbalance the tragedy of the opening notes.  It was from the Sixth Symphony of Anton Bruckner, from the Adagio, the second movement.  But Tom also remembered that Bruckner brings this theme back toward the end of the movement, in a shortened form, and the little tragic funeral march becomes involved in a short brass chorale that softens the lament, which then leads to a dialogue in the strings, an up-and-down debate, with the upwardness of the music winning gently at the end, the two flutes and a single clarinet slowly, benignly, smilingly voicing their opinion that all is well, that the turmoil and sadness heard earlier have been dissolved into nothingness...."

 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lunar22 on July 10, 2023, 11:14:01 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 10, 2023, 11:31:20 AMToday I revisited...



"Die Sechste ist die Keckste," (The Sixth is the sassiest) said Bruckner.


Certainly that might apply to the outer movements and the Scherzo, but not to the marvelous Adagio, which has always been near or at the top of my favorite slow movements.

The movement's Funeral March, and its transformation at the end into a hesitant, but irresistible, ascension of peacefulness, have always impressed me.

Musical perfection!

yes, the Jochum Dresden recording in particular is perhaps the greatest of a slow movement which is unsurpassed in the entire symphonic literature.  I can never decide whether 6 or 9 is my favourite Bruckner symphony (and that means -- with the exception of Suk's Asrael, my favourite by any composer)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 11, 2023, 06:18:18 AM
Quote from: lunar22 on July 10, 2023, 11:14:01 PMyes, the Jochum Dresden recording in particular is perhaps the greatest of a slow movement which is unsurpassed in the entire symphonic literature.  I can never decide whether 6 or 9 is my favourite Bruckner symphony (and that means -- with the exception of Suk's Asrael, my favourite by any composer)


Vielen Dank dafuer!


Here is a later scene from my novel mentioned above: this takes place during the Requiem.  The young organist has his adaptation of the Bruckner Sixth Symphony excerpt ready to go:

Quote

"...So then Tom began to play the Bruckner excerpt.  The first two bars seemed more tragic than in practice, and he had to ignore an impulse to cut the repetition of the opening four-bar theme which he had interpolated into the piece.  The next two bars rose and evoked more of a cry of anguish than any hope!  What was happening?  Those two bars were supposed to argue with the first ones, not commiserate!  When the repetition came, Tom quickly changed the stops and made the music softer.  That was better.

    Now a short dialogue in the upper register ensued, followed by a chorale that gave a distant angelicity to the opening.  Then an upward struggle with sixteenth notes, ending in a huge, slow, climactic descent in eighth and quarter notes.  But this was no descent into hopelessness, rather it was an affirmation of a foundation and of a connection between heaven and earth, a Jacob's Ladder being extended downward to all those who had the faith to take the first step.  And then the farewell most serene, the flute-and-clarinet melody slowly hovering on high, waving good-bye, as it faded away into the blissful otherworld.

 

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lordlance on July 17, 2023, 08:10:37 AM
Continuing with my recs of great Bruckner performances is the one by Blomstedt with LGO:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61aPTtZ2gIL._AC_UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)

I actually enjoyed the slow movement as opposed to my general indifference as with most Bruckner symphonies. Unfortunately, the coda of the finale seems like a bit of a letdown but this performance is the first time I can see why Blomstedt is considered a great conductor. 

Side-note: Is the minute of silence at the end of the second movement the performers taking a break or is the writing almost inaudible?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 17, 2023, 08:43:03 AM
Quote from: lordlance on July 17, 2023, 08:10:37 AMContinuing with my recs of great Bruckner performances is the one by Blomstedt with LGO:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61aPTtZ2gIL._AC_UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)

I actually enjoyed the slow movement as opposed to my general indifference as with most Bruckner symphonies. Unfortunately, the coda of the finale seems like a bit of a letdown but this performance is the first time I can see why Blomstedt is considered a great conductor.

Side-note: Is the minute of silence at the end of the second movement the performers taking a break or is the writing almost inaudible?


Well, I would need to hear the CD, but everything between bar 203 to the conclusion is marked either pp or ppp.

You should hear the Strings playing pizzicato over a drum roll, then a French Horn enters, followed by an Oboe, and then 2 Flutes playing in contrary motion, followed by a single pizzicato 8th note accompanied by the same on the Timpani.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lordlance on July 21, 2023, 12:48:13 AM
I have always made fun of the Seventh as the worst of the lot along with the Second but I suppose sometimes you just need a great performance to make you see a work differently:


The performance being from 1975 may well explain why the tempi aren't glacial like most of Asahina's recordings (80s onwards I suppose) and not so pre-occupied with "profound tempo" ;-)

I take issue with the coda of the finale. It could use more momentum but otherwise I recommend the performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 21, 2023, 07:06:09 AM
Quote from: lordlance on July 21, 2023, 12:48:13 AMI have always made fun of the Seventh as the worst of the lot along with the Second but I suppose sometimes you just need a great performance to make you see a work differently:


The performance being from 1975 may well explain why the tempi aren't glacial like most of Asahina's recordings (80s onwards I suppose) and not so pre-occupied with "profound tempo" ;-)

I take issue with the coda of the finale. It could use more momentum but otherwise I recommend the performance.


Thanks for the link!

Have you tried Eugen Jochum's recordings of the Symphony VII ?


YouTube also offers some of Jochum's television performances with Bruckner's Seventh Symphony.


e.g. here with a French orchestra:


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 27, 2023, 04:40:27 PM
An essay on "lesser-played" symphonies by great composers: Bruckner's Third Symphony, says the author, must not be missed!

Quote

"...Anton Bruckner's Symphony No. 3 concludes with what might be the most epic minute-and-a-half of music ever written. The Third opens with a nervous string section while brass gathers themselves for a massive jumpscare about a minute into the music. The slow movement is not the colossus that appears in the Seventh and Eighth Symphonies but it is no slouch. The third movement scherzo has all the energy and drive that we lovers of Bruckner expect and then it's on to the monstrous final movement.


That opening sentence struck me!  What about e.g. the Symphony #5?

Anyway...for the entire essay see:


https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2023/may/19/symphonies-mendelssohn-dvorak-and-bruckner/ (https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2023/may/19/symphonies-mendelssohn-dvorak-and-bruckner/)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on July 27, 2023, 05:46:11 PM
Unfortunately, I can't even remember what the finale of the 3rd is like at the moment, so I'll have to listen again asap and see if this guy is right ;D (Right now, I must say no, there is absolutely no way it could possibly beat the end of the 5th, or the 4th.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 28, 2023, 06:10:24 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 27, 2023, 05:46:11 PMUnfortunately, I can't even remember what the finale of the 3rd is like at the moment, so I'll have to listen again asap and see if this guy is right ;D (Right now, I must say no, there is absolutely no way it could possibly beat the end of the 5th, or the 4th.)


From the What Are You Listening To? topic:

Quote from: vers la flamme on July 28, 2023, 04:21:59 AM(https://i.postimg.cc/GpkFsJ5z/image.png)

Anton Bruckner: Symphony No.3 in D minor, WAB 103, original version. Georg Tintner, Royal Scottish National Orchestra



I do not have the score for the original version: in the Nowak 1889 revised version, the final pages of the Finale are BIG, going beyond the fine endings of its predecessors (i.e. Symphonies 0, I, II), and seemingly exhausting the abilities of the Woodwinds.  :o    :D

But does it go beyond Symphonies IV or V or the later ones? 

Hmmm!  8)


As much as I like the Original version, the Finale of the revised (1889) version seems to have more drive, perhaps is a little "neater" in its details.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on July 29, 2023, 04:15:07 AM
Quote from: Cato on July 28, 2023, 06:10:24 AMFrom the What Are You Listening To? topic:


I do not have the score for the original version: in the Nowak 1889 revised version, the final pages of the Finale are BIG, going beyond the fine endings of its predecessors (i.e. Symphonies 0, I, II), and seemingly exhausting the abilities of the Woodwinds.  :o    :D

But does it go beyond Symphonies IV or V or the later ones? 

Hmmm!  8)


As much as I like the Original version, the Finale of the revised (1889) version seems to have more drive, perhaps is a little "neater" in its details.

In that case I'll have to give the revised version a listen soon  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 29, 2023, 05:43:32 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 29, 2023, 04:15:07 AMIn that case I'll have to give the revised version a listen soon  ;D


Great!  Let us know what you think!

On another point: I did not know that there is a private Bruckner University in Austria!

Quote

"The courses offered at the Bruckner University comprise performance and pedagogical studies in the classical range of instruments as well as vocal studies, early music, jazz, improvised music, computer music and composition, right up to elemental music education and audience development.

Our graduates perform as soloists in international concert venues and on renowned stages, are members of distinguished orchestras or teachers in music schools and universities.
Something special: Artistic performance and Pedagogy*

The close connection between performing and pedagogical Bachelor studies at the Bruckner University allows students to take their degree with two courses in parallel.         


See:

https://www.bruckneruni.at/en/university/bruckner-university/history (https://www.bruckneruni.at/en/university/bruckner-university/history)



* The original Ancient Greek word "paedagogos" referred to a slave who accompanied a boy to school (and made sure he stayed there and did not run down to the river to go fishing!  ;D  )

In English, a "pedagogue" is a derogatory term for a teacher, one who is dull, uncreative, and mind-crushing.

Obviously in German that sense does not apply at all to the term or its relatives.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on July 30, 2023, 04:37:37 AM
Bouncing back to YouTube for the Fifth... in case some haven't viewed this performance, I've found it quite worthwhile:

https://youtu.be/7IPqiq7nTgs

They aren't " world class ", and that shows here and there. But it's still quite an effective and largely successful effort, imho.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on July 30, 2023, 03:49:08 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 29, 2023, 05:43:32 AMGreat!  Let us know what you think!

On another point: I did not know that there is a private Bruckner University in Austria!

Nice! Today I learned there's a Bruckner Expressway in the Bronx ;D Sadly, I doubt that it was named for the composer.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on July 30, 2023, 04:36:22 PM
Quote from: LKB on July 30, 2023, 04:37:37 AMBouncing back to YouTube for the Fifth... in case some haven't viewed this performance, I've found it quite worthwhile:

https://youtu.be/7IPqiq7nTgs

They aren't " world class ", and that shows here and there. But it's still quite an effective and largely successful effort, imho.


I have found at times that such an orchestra rises to the challenge and gives you a wonderful performance!

We have two world class orchestras here in Ohio (Cleveland and Cincinnati) and two (Dayton and Toledo) who are not considered to be "world-class," have performed world premieres, rarely heard works, as well as more regular repertoire on a very high level.

e.g. Some years ago the Dayton Philharmonic delivered a highly praised performance of Mass by Leonard Bernstein, and the Toledo Symphony played the Shostakovich Symphony #7 conducted by Maxim Shostakovich, who seemed particularly delighted at the end.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 11, 2023, 12:53:26 PM
Some years ago, I wondered how the main theme from Bruckner's Symphony V ended up in American college football games.  Today, while "channel surfing," Mrs. Cato happened upon a college football game while a band was in the middle of the theme.

So, for newer members, I thought revisiting the conversation would be of interest!  8)

Quote from: Cato on December 16, 2018, 12:14:03 PMDoes anyone know how the Fifth Symphony's theme from bar 55 ff. in the first movement by the cellos and violas (Nowak score, and a theme used later in the finale) came to be used by American college marching bands at football and basketball games? I was at a local high-school game on Friday, and the "pep band" started playing the theme from the Fifth Symphony!  8)  I have heard college bands use it during games broadcast on television in the past 3 years or so.


Quote from: Jo498 on December 17, 2018, 01:15:34 AMIt seems a "natural ostinato" phrase. It occurs very similarly in some popsong ("something nations army" is either the band or song name) and became a popular football(soccer) fan chant. At least, I think that is the phrase, I can't look it up right now.


Quote from: Maestro267 on December 18, 2018, 02:44:29 AMI've never thought to compare Bruckner's duplet-triplet rhythmic signature with Seven Nation Army before...




https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/recordingswbruckner/thewhitestripessev/ (https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/recordingswbruckner/thewhitestripessev/)


[flash=400,400]https://www.youtube.com/v/0J2QdDbelmY[/flash]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 11, 2023, 01:14:35 PM
Quote from: Cato on August 11, 2023, 12:53:26 PMSome years ago, I wondered how the main theme from Bruckner's Symphony V ended up in American college football games.  Today, while "channel surfing," Mrs. Cato happened upon a college football game while a band was in the middle of the theme.

So, for newer members, I thought revisiting the conversation would be of interest!  8)


I should explain that this was a replay of a game from two years ago: as part of the Sahara of the Bozart, American television offers channels which replay old football games!  ???  :o
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 26, 2023, 04:39:57 PM
From my (still unpublished) novel A Center of the Universe: a 12-year old musician is already a follower of all things Bruckner!


Quote"...when Tom heard the Fourth Symphony of Anton Bruckner for the first time, a section of the symphony's first movement, bars 334 to 350, suddenly conjured forth an image of himself as a very small child watching a B-52 meander through the clouds on its way to the base.  Exactly why and how the music of a 19th-century Austrian composer should resurrect this memory in his soul remained a mystery that he often contemplated and marveled at.  Strange that such a death-dealing aircraft could be linked to the poetry of sounds!..."

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on August 27, 2023, 05:06:05 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 26, 2023, 04:39:57 PMFrom my (still unpublished) novel A Center of the Universe: a 12-year old musician is already a follower of all things Bruckner!



I can relate, since as a young boy l would frequently see B-52's in the landing pattern at the base where we lived during the 1960's.

( As an aside, the B-52H uses eight turbofan engines which can sound like a piccolo ensemble during takeoff and landing. Not very Brucknerian, but still oddly musical. )

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 27, 2023, 05:13:27 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 26, 2023, 04:39:57 PMFrom my (still unpublished) novel A Center of the Universe: a 12-year old musician is already a follower of all things Bruckner!



Turned on music many times during Russian night attacks. Not that it helps, but it distracts a little.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 27, 2023, 05:48:12 AM
Quote from: LKB on August 27, 2023, 05:06:05 AMI can relate, since as a young boy l would frequently see B-52's in the landing pattern at the base where we lived during the 1960's.

( As an aside, the B-52H uses eight turbofan engines which can sound like a piccolo ensemble during takeoff and landing. Not very Brucknerian, but still oddly musical. )



I lived near Wright-Patterson AFB: they flew over our neighborhood seemingly every day!  Louder than thunder and from 5 miles away!

We could see F-80's, F-86's, F-104's (beautiful design, but apparently a nightmare to fly!), KC-135 tankers, and others.  Great fun, until you became conscious of their purpose!

Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 27, 2023, 05:13:27 AMTurned on music many times during Russian night attacks. Not that it helps, but it distracts a little.
 

A distraction from such an event is valuable.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 27, 2023, 06:07:18 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 27, 2023, 05:48:12 AMA distraction from such an event is valuable.

Nothing really works.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on August 27, 2023, 06:57:59 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 27, 2023, 05:48:12 AMI lived near Wright-Patterson AFB: they flew over our neighborhood seemingly every day!  Louder than thunder and from 5 miles away!

We could see F-80's, F-86's, F-104's (beautiful design, but apparently a nightmare to fly!), KC-135 tankers, and others.  Great fun, until you became conscious of their purpose!

As an Air Force brat, l was a fan of pretty much anything with wings, even after l was old enough to understand the reasons for such aircraft. ( When your dad flies and fights for your country, it can make all the difference... )

I was even smuggled aboard a B-52G by my dad's crew ( for maybe two minutes ) while it was on static display during an airshow. I was a skinny nine-year-old at the time and still remember my surprise at how cramped the aircraft interior was.  ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 27, 2023, 04:28:57 PM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 27, 2023, 06:07:18 AMNothing really works.


That I can easily understand!  Best Wishes!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 31, 2023, 12:42:19 PM
Although people do not usually choose the Symphony #1 as a favorite, it has been one of my top choices since 1966, when I heard the DGG recording with 😇 Eugen Jochum 😇 conducting.


Bruckner supposedly nicknamed it "Das Kecke Beserl i.e. The Sassy Maid."

I remember being instantly impressed by the energy of the work:  Movements I, III, and IV are full of excitement and drive!  And yet, the slower Second Movement is not to be ignored either.  8)


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on August 31, 2023, 02:30:31 PM
Quote from: Cato on August 31, 2023, 12:42:19 PMAlthough people do not usually choose the Symphony #1 as a favorite, it has been one of my top choices since 1966, when I heard the DGG recording with 😇 Eugen Jochum 😇 conducting.


Bruckner supposedly nicknamed it "Das Kecke Beserl i.e. The Sassy Maid."

I remember being instantly impressed by the energy of the work:  Movements I, III, and IV are full of excitement and drive!  And yet, the slower Second Movement is not to be ignored either.  8)




I should mention that the work's music occurred to me today, while I was home and doing something demanding a diversion!  ;)

So I listened mentally, as cranking up the stereo was not an option!  😇
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on September 04, 2023, 05:37:10 AM
Happy 199th to the master. I'll be listening to something of his today.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on September 04, 2023, 06:37:47 AM
I'm thinking the third symphony with Skrowacezski.  Either that or the masses with Jochum.

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.qobuz.com%2Fimages%2Fcovers%2F67%2F63%2F0002894796367_600.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=0c02c3a4f3907514be91ec740d0f2c494d4d50149a3911d03a4542796cce7739&ipo=images)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on September 04, 2023, 07:24:51 AM
For the birthday boy, listening to the Eighth in a few hours, live from the Proms, with Semyon Bychkov conducting the BBC Symphony Orchestra. (For those who miss the broadcast, it will be archived.)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001q158

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 04, 2023, 08:13:00 AM
Quote from: brewski on September 04, 2023, 07:24:51 AMFor the birthday boy, listening to the Eighth in a few hours, live from the Proms, with Semyon Bychkov conducting the BBC Symphony Orchestra. (For those who miss the broadcast, it will be archived.)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001q158

-Bruce


Thanks for that link!  Semyon Bychkov conducting Bruckner should be interesting!


Quote from: DavidW on September 04, 2023, 06:37:47 AMI'm thinking the third symphony with Skrowaczewski.  Either that or the masses with Jochum.

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.qobuz.com%2Fimages%2Fcovers%2F67%2F63%2F0002894796367_600.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=0c02c3a4f3907514be91ec740d0f2c494d4d50149a3911d03a4542796cce7739&ipo=images)


Excellent choices: if you have time, why not both?   ;D

This morning I spent an excellent 5 minutes and a half with the Os Iusti:



Later, I hope to hear this performance:


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on September 04, 2023, 09:00:26 AM
I'll celebrate with the Seventh later, it was my introduction to symphonic Bruckner back in 1977 during my first stint at Tower Records.

At the risk of re-posting, here's a nice plug for both the birthday boy and the RCO:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/aug/25/bruckner-nine-symphonies-review-concertgebouws-early-gift-is-a-conducting-masterclass
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 04, 2023, 09:34:45 AM
Quote from: LKB on September 04, 2023, 09:00:26 AMI'll celebrate with the Seventh later, it was my introduction to symphonic Bruckner back in 1977 during my first stint at Tower Records.

At the risk of re-posting, here's a nice plug for both the birthday boy and the RCO:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/aug/25/bruckner-nine-symphonies-review-concertgebouws-early-gift-is-a-conducting-masterclass
Thanks for posting, it looks a great set!

The 7th Symphony, along with the 3rd, was my introduction to Brucker as well, such a powerfully impressive work; I'm tempted to celebrate the great Austrian composer with the 7th too, but to diversify, I'll choose the 9th.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: AnotherSpin on September 04, 2023, 09:41:53 AM
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/47/04/0002894830447_600.jpg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on September 04, 2023, 10:02:00 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on September 04, 2023, 09:41:53 AM(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/47/04/0002894830447_600.jpg)

My preferred recording of the Eighth, which Mr. Hurwitz claims is " badly recorded ( spoiler alert: it ain't  ::)  ) ".
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: AnotherSpin on September 04, 2023, 10:06:53 AM
Quote from: LKB on September 04, 2023, 10:02:00 AMMy preferred recording of the Eighth, which Mr. Hurwitz claims is " badly recorded ( spoiler alert: it ain't  ::)  ) ".

I can't remember when my impression fully coincided with what Hurwitz said. But, it's okay.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 04, 2023, 10:27:23 AM
Quote from: LKB on September 04, 2023, 10:02:00 AMMy preferred recording of the Eighth, which Mr. Hurwitz claims is " badly recorded ( spoiler alert: it ain't ::)  ) ".


I am shocked that Mr. Hurwitz could be wrong!   8)

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 04, 2023, 09:34:45 AMThanks for posting, it looks a great set!

The 7th Symphony, along with the 3rd, was my introduction to Brucker as well, such a powerfully impressive work; I'm tempted to celebrate the great Austrian composer with the 7th too, but to diversify, I'll choose the 9th.



Yes, thanks for the Concertgebouw link!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on September 04, 2023, 10:59:35 AM
I was idly curious to see who else had a birthday today. Anton has some interesting company, the following list is extracted from Wikipedia:

Darius Milhaud
Mitzi Gaynor
Dick York
Tom Watson
Damon Wayans
Beyoncé

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_4
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: amw on September 04, 2023, 11:42:56 PM
Didn't realize today was his birthday and nevertheless had somehow already decided to listen to him (in this case the 8th, conducted by Hans Rosbaud). Weird how that works sometimes.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Baxcalibur on September 05, 2023, 05:34:51 PM
I didn't realize that, either. I'd been listening to the entire Skrowaczewski cycle over the last few weeks, and I thought the Labor Day weekend would be a good time to hear Nos. 7 through 9.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 05, 2023, 06:23:01 PM
Quote from: Baxcalibur on September 05, 2023, 05:34:51 PMI didn't realize that, either. I'd been listening to the entire Skrowaczewski cycle over the last few weeks, and I thought the Labor Day weekend would be a good time to hear Nos. 7 through 9.


As I recall, the Sixth Symphony in that cycle was highly recommended:


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on September 05, 2023, 09:54:54 PM
For the Sixth I've settled on the EMI/Philharmonia/Klemperer, after trying von Karajan and a couple of others.

In 2014 l attended a performance by the VPO, with Andris Nelsons filling in for an ailing Franz Welser-Möst. While the orchestra sounded wonderful, l still wanted the Klemperer! ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on September 06, 2023, 06:30:26 AM
Quote from: Baxcalibur on September 05, 2023, 05:34:51 PMI didn't realize that, either. I'd been listening to the entire Skrowaczewski cycle over the last few weeks, and I thought the Labor Day weekend would be a good time to hear Nos. 7 through 9.

He is my favorite conductor for Bruckner, tied with Jochum.  I will be listening to more Wand though!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 08, 2023, 04:43:55 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 06, 2023, 06:30:26 AMHe is my favorite conductor for Bruckner, tied with JochumI will be listening to more Wand though!



Here is an excellent example Guenter Wand at work:



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 13, 2023, 01:56:07 PM
Courtesy of a BRUCKNER fan on another website: an article on Bruckner specialist Georg Tintner, who was also a composer!


Quote

Multiple exile was the singular experience of 20th-century Jewish musicians. Fleeing from fascist Europe, Soviet oppression and war, they sought audiences capable of giving them shelter and appreciating their talents. A key example is Vienna-born conductor and composer Georg Tintner, who worked in quasi-obscurity in New Zealand, Australia and Canada until late in life, when he was permitted to record Bruckner's symphonies for Naxos, by which time he was already elderly and suffering from cancer. As an "honorable" way to escape this disease, as Tintner put it, he committed suicide in 1999, at age 82.

Tintner is mostly remembered for his Bruckner CDs and, as one 1984 critic put it, for giving the appearance in concert of a "slightly underfed Old Testament prophet castigating the doubters of his congregation." Last April, a brilliant new biography, "Out of Time: The Vexed Life of Georg Tintner," appeared, almost entirely unheralded, from University of Western Australia Press (and available in America from International Specialized Book Services), patiently explaining the sources of Tintner's artistry.

Written by the conductor's widow, Tanya Buchdahl Tintner, a journalist and arts administrator, "Out of Time" narrates the musician's trajectory, starting in Vienna, where he was the first Jewish boy to be admitted to the noted Wiener Sängerknaben (Vienna Boys Choir). On a 1929 tour of Italy, at an audience with Pope Pius XI, Tintner was the only choirboy who refused to kiss the pope's ring. This may have exacerbated the first "vexed" aspect of Tintner's life. Wiener Sängerknaben's director, Josef Schnitt, was a notorious anti-Semite who tormented young Tintner in public, informing assemblies during prize-giving ceremonies: "And of course, there is nothing for the Jew."...

... in 1965, the mediocre conductor Richard Bonynge, ...banished Tintner to work as assistant prompter at The New Zealand Opera. ... Tintner wrote with delicately poignant forbearance to the opera administrator:

"Forgive me for making the personal observation that I see the years slip by (I was forty-seven in May) and I am being de- instead of promoted. Hitler cost me fifteen years of my life and I see less talented and younger people leaving me behind. I don't think many people who have conducted seventeen different operas from memory (not to speak of many symphonies etc.) have been used as prompters. Nevertheless the Hindus say: We are where we deserve to be — perhaps they are right."...



https://forward.com/culture/139493/being-where-he-deserves-to-be/ (https://forward.com/culture/139493/being-where-he-deserves-to-be/)

The article containing the above had the larger theme of conductors who did not  - or only rarely - perform the music of Gustav Mahler. And concerning Tintner on that topic:

Quote

...In 1970s lectures to Canadian music students, Tintner explained how he was repelled by the "self-pity," "self-hatred" and "self-loathing" that he discerned in much of Mahler's music. By contrast, Tintner loved Austrian-Catholic composer Anton Bruckner's music for its "consolation" and "assurance," adding his admiration for "that sort of cosmic feeling that, in spite of every horrible thing, the world can be a good place."


A few other excerpts:

Quote

Great conductors of Bruckner's music who have not performed Mahler's symphonies: Eugen Jochum, Sergiu Celibidache, Gunther Wand, Wofang Sawallisch, Nikolaus Harnoncourt, Hans Knappertsbusch

Eugen Jochum made an excellent recording of "Das Lied von der Erde" (The Song of the Earth). It's a pity he wasn't motivated to perform Mahler's symphonies...


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 13, 2023, 02:01:22 PM
I forgot to include this: Georg Tintner's Trauermusik

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lordlance on September 14, 2023, 10:50:16 AM
Quote from: Baxcalibur on September 05, 2023, 05:34:51 PMI didn't realize that, either. I'd been listening to the entire Skrowaczewski cycle over the last few weeks, and I thought the Labor Day weekend would be a good time to hear Nos. 7 through 9.
Wow someone referring to a Gen 9 Pokemon. That's rare. Do you like the design of Gen 9 Pokemons?

A great Sixth which I can recommend is Haitink's with Staatskapelle Dresden (https://open.spotify.com/album/0Vpx0mMR7fFXDbJWRUtz7C?si=8c8fc7a07151498c) (not on YT sadly.)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 15, 2023, 11:33:49 AM
Quote from: lordlance on September 14, 2023, 10:50:16 AMA great Sixth which I can recommend is Haitink's with Staatskapelle Dresden (https://open.spotify.com/album/0Vpx0mMR7fFXDbJWRUtz7C?si=8c8fc7a07151498c) (not on YT sadly.)


One must dig rather deeply into YouTube: it is in 4 separate videos.












It is ridiculous how YouTube scrambles such things!  If you are listening to the First Movement, the links to the next three are NOT readily available!

I had to search two more times to find the other movements, but they did exist in YouTube's vast ether!  ;D

And commercials came on before the First and Fourth Movements: ugh! 


Anyway, here they are for anyone wishing to hear the performance mentioned by Lord Lance!  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on September 15, 2023, 01:16:08 PM
Quote from: lordlance on September 14, 2023, 10:50:16 AMWow someone referring to a Gen 9 Pokemon. That's rare. Do you like the design of Gen 9 Pokemons?

A great Sixth which I can recommend is Haitink's with Staatskapelle Dresden (https://open.spotify.com/album/0Vpx0mMR7fFXDbJWRUtz7C?si=8c8fc7a07151498c) (not on YT sadly.)

Yes!! I love that recording.  Perhaps my favorite...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 15, 2023, 01:35:41 PM
Quote from: Cato on September 15, 2023, 11:33:49 AMOne must dig rather deeply into YouTube: it is in 4 separate videos.












It is ridiculous how YouTube scrambles such things!  If you are listening to the First Movement, the links to the next three are NOT readily available!

I had to search two more times to find the other movements, but they did exist in YouTube's vast ether!  ;D

And commercials came on before the First and Fourth Movements: ugh! 


Anyway, here they are for anyone wishing to hear the performance mentioned by Lord Lance!  ;)



Quote from: DavidW on September 15, 2023, 01:16:08 PMYes!! I love that recording.  Perhaps my favorite...



Eugen Jochum conducted his second series with the 1970's Staatskapelle Dresden. 

The usual wisdom about the set is that it might have a "rawer" sound at times, but is more dynamic or powerful than  the DGG set.


Here on ONE screen is the entire performance!


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Baxcalibur on September 15, 2023, 07:06:48 PM
Quote from: lordlance on September 14, 2023, 10:50:16 AMWow someone referring to a Gen 9 Pokemon. That's rare. Do you like the design of Gen 9 Pokemons?
They're hit-or-miss for me, although I could say that about most gens. I mainly chose this one for my profile because I was listening to Arnold Bax at the time.


Quote from: Cato on September 15, 2023, 01:35:41 PMEugen Jochum conducted his second series with the 1970's Staatskapelle Dresden. 

The usual wisdom about the set is that it might have a "rawer" sound at times, but is more dynamic or powerful than  the DGG set.
All the instruments share a singing quality to their sound, and in the case of the brass, the occasional belting. They really sing in the softer parts of the 1st-movement coda - just listen to the horns starting at 13:39!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 19, 2023, 12:06:00 PM
Courtesy of FaceBook member who says he is the curator of a Bruckner Museum: a 15-minute video on Bruckner.






Of interest is the international character of the creators:


Script by Yan Xing Lee

Voiceover by Oscar Osicki

Edit by Eddie Muniz


Like all great music, Bruckner's ignores divisions of any kind!   8) 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 26, 2023, 06:10:29 PM
This performance of the Symphony #3 was raved about by a Bruckner fan on FaceBook: any opinions?


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71MR4XnJI0L._SL1200_.jpg)



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 27, 2023, 01:07:21 PM
Quote from: Cato on September 26, 2023, 06:10:29 PMThis performance of the Symphony #3 was raved about by a Bruckner fan on FaceBook: any opinions?


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71MR4XnJI0L._SL1200_.jpg)




I admit it was the first time I listened to Celibidache in Bruckner, Karajan, Jochum and Rosbaud are usually my points of reference; definitely a splendid recording, very intense and passionate!

Is it a live recording? What I suppose is the voice of the conductor can be heard more than once along the performance, especially at the climaxes....
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on September 27, 2023, 05:03:47 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 27, 2023, 01:07:21 PMI admit it was the first time I listened to Celibidache in Bruckner, Karajan, Jochum and Rosbaud are usually my points of reference; definitely a splendid recording, very intense and passionate!

Is it a live recording? What I suppose is the voice of the conductor can be heard more than once along the performance, especially at the climaxes....


You can hear the conductor's voice?!  Hmmm!  😇

You remind me of a review from many decades ago (1970's?) of Mahler Symphonies conducted by Sir John Barbirolli, wherein the critic complained about "Sir John's groans" (whether from arthritis or from emotional reactions was unclear) during several performances, mainly in the Symphony VI.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: AnotherSpin on September 27, 2023, 09:35:55 PM
Quote from: Cato on September 27, 2023, 05:03:47 PMYou can hear the conductor's voice?!  Hmmm!  😇

You remind me of a review from many decades ago (1970's?) of Mahler Symphonies conducted by Sir John Barbirolli, wherein the critic complained about "Sir John's groans" (whether from arthritis or from emotional reactions was unclear) during several performances, mainly in the Symphony VI.

Yes, Barbirolli's moans are clearly audible in the recording of Mahler's 6th. Of course, for this one needs high-quality sound equipment with good resolution. With poor quality playback, everything is mixed up in a mess, one can't make out a thing.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 28, 2023, 02:58:24 AM
Quote from: Cato on September 27, 2023, 05:03:47 PMYou can hear the conductor's voice?!  Hmmm!  😇

You remind me of a review from many decades ago (1970's?) of Mahler Symphonies conducted by Sir John Barbirolli, wherein the critic complained about "Sir John's groans" (whether from arthritis or from emotional reactions was unclear) during several performances, mainly in the Symphony VI.
Amusing, I would have liked to listen to that Mahler 6! :)

Well, it's true a crystalline recording without noises is better for me, but I don't find Celibidache's groans particularly annoying (especially because the performance is enough wonderful to make you turn a blind eye to that), in some way, if it's not exaggerated, it's nice to hear a conductor so moved by the music.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 08, 2023, 03:30:39 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on September 27, 2023, 09:35:55 PMYes, Barbirolli's moans are clearly audible in the recording of Mahler's 6th. Of course, for this one needs high-quality sound equipment with good resolution. With poor quality playback, everything is mixed up in a mess, one can't make out a thing.



That is an advantage of going with the cheap stuff!   ;D


A new project from Austria on Bruckner:


The Upper Austrian KulturEXPO Anton Bruckner 2024 is looking for interested choirs and singers from all over the world for a digital, global "Locus iste"!

"Locus iste" is one of the "world hits" of the genius loci Anton Bruckner. At the beginning of his anniversary year, it should also be heard from all over the world. That is why we send the invitation out to all interested choirs, singers and musicians to send us a video recording of the "Locus iste" piece.

The selection of videos will become a part of an overall film. This film will be presented as a part of the New Year's Concert of the Bruckner Orchestra Linz on January 1st, 2024 in the Brucknerhaus Linz; therefore it will be a part of the official opening of the * KulturEXPO Anton Bruckner 2024.

On the day of the opening, musicians will be performing the choral work live in the hall, while the submitted film excerpts from all over the world will be played simultaneously. The aim of this new year's happening is to present that Anton Bruckner is happening "all over the world!" From January 1st, 2024, the entire film made from your submissions will also be available to the public on our official website www.anton-bruckner-2024.at.


* = Ober Österreich = Upper Austria, i.e. a state in the north/northwest part of Austria with Linz as the provincial capital.


https://www.anton-bruckner-2024.at/en/news/weltumspannendes-locus-iste/ (https://www.anton-bruckner-2024.at/en/news/weltumspannendes-locus-iste/)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: AnotherSpin on October 08, 2023, 04:51:19 AM
Quote from: Cato on October 08, 2023, 03:30:39 AMThat is an advantage of going with the cheap stuff!   ;D



It's quite possible that you'll like the music from a cheap radio better than from an expensive top quality sound set. Or it could be the other way round. It doesn't matter whether the thing is expensive or not, it's your subjective perception of the thing that matters.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 08, 2023, 10:18:29 AM
Quote from: Cato on October 08, 2023, 03:30:39 AMThat is an advantage of going with the cheap stuff!   ;D


A new project from Austria on Bruckner:


The Upper Austrian KulturEXPO Anton Bruckner 2024 is looking for interested choirs and singers from all over the world for a digital, global "Locus iste"!

"Locus iste" is one of the "world hits" of the genius loci Anton Bruckner. At the beginning of his anniversary year, it should also be heard from all over the world. That is why we send the invitation out to all interested choirs, singers and musicians to send us a video recording of the "Locus iste" piece.

The selection of videos will become a part of an overall film. This film will be presented as a part of the New Year's Concert of the Bruckner Orchestra Linz on January 1st, 2024 in the Brucknerhaus Linz; therefore it will be a part of the official opening of the * KulturEXPO Anton Bruckner 2024.

On the day of the opening, musicians will be performing the choral work live in the hall, while the submitted film excerpts from all over the world will be played simultaneously. The aim of this new year's happening is to present that Anton Bruckner is happening "all over the world!" From January 1st, 2024, the entire film made from your submissions will also be available to the public on our official website www.anton-bruckner-2024.at.


* = Ober Österreich = Upper Austria, i.e. a state in the north/northwest part of Austria with Linz as the provincial capital.


https://www.anton-bruckner-2024.at/en/news/weltumspannendes-locus-iste/ (https://www.anton-bruckner-2024.at/en/news/weltumspannendes-locus-iste/)




For those who do not know the work Locus Iste:

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lordlance on October 15, 2023, 04:11:40 AM
The Thielemann cycle has been released in its entirety:

(https://www.horizonsmusic.co.uk/cdn/shop/files/1_55f4e8af-a805-451a-9a9e-bb1904aac213.jpg?v=1695412548)

Any thoughts on the performances?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on October 15, 2023, 04:28:33 AM
Quote from: lordlance on October 15, 2023, 04:11:40 AMThe Thielemann cycle has been released in its entirety:

(https://www.horizonsmusic.co.uk/cdn/shop/files/1_55f4e8af-a805-451a-9a9e-bb1904aac213.jpg?v=1695412548)

Any thoughts on the performances?

I saw the same forces back in March, and the Eighth was successful if not perfect. But I'm not at all familiar with this set so I'd be interested in feedback as well.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lordlance on October 15, 2023, 04:34:02 AM
Quote from: LKB on October 15, 2023, 04:28:33 AMI saw the same forces back in March, and the Eighth was successful if not perfect. But I'm not at all familiar with this set so I'd be interested in feedback as well.
An interesting question: Have you heard any recorded Eighths made in the last 15 years that could stand with the great greats?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on October 15, 2023, 07:06:43 AM
Quote from: lordlance on October 15, 2023, 04:34:02 AMAn interesting question: Have you heard any recorded Eighths made in the last 15 years that could stand with the great greats?

The honest and entertainingly (?) snarky answer:

No.  >:D

The more completely honest ( if overly lengthy ) answer:

I haven't actually heard any of the studio Eighths recorded in the last 15 years, except for brief snippets from Thielmann's cycle above.

I tend to remain loyal ( with rare exceptions ) to the imprints for whatever music l've memorized over the last fifty years. For the Eighth that would be Haitink's digital studio release with the RCO from around 1980, though that wasn't actually the first recording l was exposed to.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lordlance on October 15, 2023, 11:24:24 AM
Quote from: LKB on October 15, 2023, 07:06:43 AMThe honest and entertainingly (?) snarky answer:

No.  >:D

The more completely honest ( if overly lengthy ) answer:

I haven't actually heard any of the studio Eighths recorded in the last 15 years, except for brief snippets from Thielmann's cycle above.

I tend to remain loyal ( with rare exceptions ) to the imprints for whatever music l've memorized over the last fifty years. For the Eighth that would be Haitink's digital studio release with the RCO from around 1980, though that wasn't actually the first recording l was exposed to.


There aren't studio recordings anymore AFAIK. Very rarely. It's all recordings of live performances. As Dave said, the industry went bust in the 90s. Are you not the type to keep wanting to hear new interpretations just for the kicks?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on October 15, 2023, 01:57:12 PM
Quote from: lordlance on October 15, 2023, 04:11:40 AMThe Thielemann cycle has been released in its entirety:

(https://www.horizonsmusic.co.uk/cdn/shop/files/1_55f4e8af-a805-451a-9a9e-bb1904aac213.jpg?v=1695412548)

Any thoughts on the performances?

Just okay but at least he tried.  I mean I am a stick in the mud that mostly relistens to Jochum and Karajan but it seems like conductors these days just gravitate towards Mahler and ignore Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on October 15, 2023, 08:16:13 PM
Quote from: lordlance on October 15, 2023, 11:24:24 AMThere aren't studio recordings anymore AFAIK. Very rarely. It's all recordings of live performances. As Dave said, the industry went bust in the 90s. Are you not the type to keep wanting to hear new interpretations just for the kicks?

I've played and sung and conducted ( vocal, not symphonic ) Bruckner in concert. And I've listened avidly since around 1977 or '78, when the Seventh hypnotized its way into my welcoming young brain.  ;D

So I don't really feel a need for new interpretations, but at the same time I'd like to think that I'm still willing to entertain a variety of points-of-view, within reasonable limits.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on October 16, 2023, 06:42:30 AM
Quote from: lordlance on October 15, 2023, 11:24:24 AMThere aren't studio recordings anymore AFAIK. Very rarely. It's all recordings of live performances. As Dave said, the industry went bust in the 90s. Are you not the type to keep wanting to hear new interpretations just for the kicks?

Wait what are you talking about!?  Certainly you don't mean the classical music recording industry which outputs more new releases than anybody but Brian and Todd can keep track of?  And most of those are still studio recordings.

Are you talking about a specific label?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lordlance on October 17, 2023, 08:22:21 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 16, 2023, 06:42:30 AMWait what are you talking about!?  Certainly you don't mean the classical music recording industry which outputs more new releases than anybody but Brian and Todd can keep track of?  And most of those are still studio recordings.

Are you talking about a specific label?
Wait really? I thought it was all live stuff now.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: MishaK on October 17, 2023, 01:25:26 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 15, 2023, 01:57:12 PMJust okay but at least he tried.  I mean I am a stick in the mud that mostly relistens to Jochum and Karajan but it seems like conductors these days just gravitate towards Mahler and ignore Bruckner.

I have tried and tried but have never warmed to CT's Bruckner. To me he sounds like he goes limp before every climax. And the dynamic distinctions just aren't as detailed as they could be. There is actually some good Bruckner coming out from "conductors these days". Do check out Honeck and Luisi for example.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on October 17, 2023, 02:09:58 PM
Quote from: MishaK on October 17, 2023, 01:25:26 PMDo check out Honeck and Luisi for example.

I'll do that!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on October 17, 2023, 03:40:38 PM
Though I haven't yet heard the Honeck/Pittsburgh Bruckner 9, I can vouch for the Fourth, which is superb. It doesn't hurt that they have teamed up with Reference Recordings, one of the best in the business.

-Bruce

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on October 17, 2023, 04:00:00 PM
In other Bruckner news, I'm looking forward to the Philadelphia Orchestra concert below this weekend. I don't think I've ever heard the Haydn.

Mirga Gražinytė-Tyla, conductor
Jennifer Montone, horn

Haydn Horn Concerto No. 1
Bruckner Symphony No. 6

https://www.philorch.org/performances/our-season/events-and-tickets/2023-2024-season/verizon-hall/haydn-and-bruckner/

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 23, 2023, 06:19:01 PM
Quote from: brewski on October 17, 2023, 04:00:00 PMIn other Bruckner news, I'm looking forward to the Philadelphia Orchestra concert below this weekend. I don't think I've ever heard the Haydn.

Mirga Gražinytė-Tyla, conductor
Jennifer Montone, horn

Haydn Horn Concerto No. 1
Bruckner Symphony No. 6

https://www.philorch.org/performances/our-season/events-and-tickets/2023-2024-season/verizon-hall/haydn-and-bruckner/

-Bruce


From the What Are You Listening To topic...

Quote from: brewski on October 23, 2023, 04:47:48 AMHappily replaying Bruckner 6 in my head, after performances this weekend with the Philadelphia Orchestra and conductor Mirga Gražinytė-Tyla.

At the concert, struck up a conversation with a journalist from Panama who was in town for the day. She had never heard the piece, nor the conductor, and was in awe.

-Bruce


Being in awe after hearing a Bruckner symphony is to be expected!   8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on October 23, 2023, 07:09:42 PM
Quote from: Cato on October 23, 2023, 06:19:01 PMBeing in awe after hearing a Bruckner symphony is to be expected!   8)

Well, I'd like to think that! But in my experience listeners are mixed: some are mesmerized, others bored. I could tell that this weekend, some in the audience were not having a good time. Bruckner does require a commitment to an hour or so, and not everyone these days seems to have that kind of attention span.

But it was fun sharing it with those who do!

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 24, 2023, 04:31:45 AM
Quote from: brewski on October 23, 2023, 07:09:42 PMWell, I'd like to think that! But in my experience listeners are mixed: some are mesmerized, others bored. I could tell that this weekend, some in the audience were not having a good time. Bruckner does require a commitment to an hour or so, and not everyone these days seems to have that kind of attention span.

But it was fun sharing it with those who do!

-Bruce


You remind me of the time I tried to convince my brother-in-law that Classical Music was worth his time, so I cranked up Pierre Boulez on a DGG CD with the Infernal Dance from Stravinsky's Firebird Suite.


In less than a minute he had his hands folded on his pizza-and-beer stomach and his eyes closed: "Yeah, that stuff always puts me to sleep."   ???    :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 24, 2023, 08:19:39 AM
This came up at a Mahler fansite: from the memoirs of Natalie Bauer-Lechner about Gustav Mahler:

According to her memoirs, while comparing Brahms to Bruckner in a discussion with his brother Otto, Mahler stated that he found the Gestalt (i.e. the overall form) in the works of Bruckner weaker:

Quote

"...The greatness and exuberance of invention in Bruckner undoubtedly excite, but one is continuously disturbed and disappointed by the fragmentation of his work. I allow myself to say this because you know how much I revere him, despite everything, and I will always do everything possible for him to be performed and listened to. It is really sad that in life, from his contemporaries, Bruckner never obtained what he deserved. He begins to assert himself only now that he is over seventy years old; and from posterity, which receives only what is complete, perfect, will be even less loved and understood..."



Certainly that last prediction has turned out to be completely wrong!  8)

I find the opinion about the "fragmentation" in Bruckner's works incomprehensible, especially from a composer/conductor who studied Bruckner's works.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on October 24, 2023, 09:21:21 AM
Quote from: Cato on October 24, 2023, 04:31:45 AMYou remind me of the time I tried to convince my brother-in-law that Classical Music was worth his time, so I cranked up Pierre Boulez on a DGG CD with the Infernal Dance from Stravinsky's Firebird Suite.


In less than a minute he had his hands folded on his pizza-and-beer stomach and his eyes closed: "Yeah, that stuff always puts me to sleep."  ???    :)

:o  ;D  :laugh:

I mean, to each his own, but imagine listening to that particular sequence (with Boulez and Chicago, no less) and thinking "time for a nap."  :o  :o  :o

But then, there's a certain segment of people who think that classical music is "relaxing."  ;D

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on October 24, 2023, 09:30:05 AM
Quote from: Cato on October 23, 2023, 06:19:01 PMBeing in awe after hearing a Bruckner symphony is to be expected!  8)

I'm sad to say that I've never heard Bruckner live, though I've heard Mahler live many times.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on October 24, 2023, 09:35:23 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 24, 2023, 09:30:05 AMI'm sad to say that I've never heard Bruckner live, though I've heard Mahler live many times.

Bruckner live can be thrilling. (Or for some, time to mentally take stock of the pantry for the next day's grocery list.  ;D )

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 24, 2023, 02:28:50 PM
Quote from: brewski on October 24, 2023, 09:21:21 AM:o  ;D  :laugh:

I mean, to each his own, but imagine listening to that particular sequence (with Boulez and Chicago, no less) and thinking "time for a nap."  :o  :o  :o

But then, there's a certain segment of people who think that classical music is "relaxing."  ;D

-Bruce


Yes, and Classical Music is, as we know, often marketed as "relaxing."

On my brother-in-law: he is a wise guy at times and a "reverse snob," i.e. too often, any kind of "high culture" is mocked, while cruder things are lionized.

My wife just sighs!  8)


Quote from: DavidW on October 24, 2023, 09:30:05 AMI'm sad to say that I've never heard Bruckner live, though I've heard Mahler live many times.


I have been blessed to hear the Cleveland Orchestra in the Fifth Symphony, the Toledo Symphony Orchestra performing in the local Catholic Cathedral Die Nullte, the Third, Fourth, Fifth and Eighth, and the Seventh with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra.

All were simply marvelous experiences!!!  8)   Hearing Bruckner in a cathedral was especially thrilling: the conductor of the Toledo Symphony at the time, Stefan Sanderling, was awarded the Kilenyi Medal by the Bruckner Society of America.  The concerts were well attended, but the tradition ended some years ago.  Sad!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 24, 2023, 03:58:11 PM
Here's an interesting point. In the first movement of Bruckner's 9th, at bar 68 of the Nowak score to be exact, there is a minim timpani note notated; this occurs after five bars of convulsive statement of main theme fff with every instrument in the orchestra playing, the timpani accompanying with rolls fff. Now there is no change in the dynamic for the timpani notated so that single minim should be an enormous thud heard clearly, as all the other instruments have a tied note over the bar line and their notes will be dying away.

This is how I heard it the first time I listened to it as a teenager and it scared the willies out of me, I had never heard anything quite so frightening in music. However I have noticed that some in recordings the timpanist plays that note as a rather modest thump (so probably f or ff) and in some recordings the timpanist doesn't seem to play anything in that bar, which kind of ruins the effect for me.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 25, 2023, 03:16:17 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 24, 2023, 03:58:11 PMHere's an interesting point. In the first movement of Bruckner's 9th, at bar 68 of the Nowak score to be exact, there is a minim timpani note notated; this occurs after five bars of convulsive statement of main theme fff with every instrument in the orchestra playing, the timpani accompanying with rolls fff. Now there is no change in the dynamic for the timpani notated so that single minim should be an enormous thud heard clearly, as all the other instruments have a tied note over the bar line and their notes will be dying away.

This is how I heard it the first time I listened to it as a teenager and it scared the willies out of me, I had never heard anything quite so frightening in music. However I have noticed that some in recordings the timpanist plays that note as a rather modest thump (so probably f or ff) and in some recordings the timpanist doesn't seem to play anything in that bar, which kind of ruins the effect for me.


Do you recall which recording you heard as a teenager?  Yes, the single note is indicated in the Nowak score at bar 68, although no special emphasis is indicated, e.g. no > is there nor is there a staccato dot.

My Jochum DGG performance has the timpanist simply ending his roll: the note is audible, but not in the fff which you heard, when you were a teenager.

Via YouTube, I checked performances conducted by Guenter Wand and Leonard Bernstein (the note is there, but not emphasized), Carlo Maria Giulini, Carl Schuricht, Herbert Von Karajan (the note is inaudible in all three!), and also checked Simon Rattle's version with the Finale (again, not emphasized).

I do recall hearing a performance, where the note is given a rather loud emphasis, and yes, has therefore a frightening effect!



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on October 25, 2023, 06:31:24 AM
Quote from: brewski on October 24, 2023, 09:21:21 AMBut then, there's a certain segment of people who think that classical music is "relaxing."  ;D

-Bruce

I'm sure then you immediately start blasting Penderecki's Threnody to correct them! :laugh:
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on October 25, 2023, 11:16:34 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 25, 2023, 06:31:24 AMI'm sure then you immediately start blasting Penderecki's Threnody to correct them! :laugh:

My goto is Xenakis's Kraanerg.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on October 25, 2023, 11:30:09 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 25, 2023, 06:31:24 AMI'm sure then you immediately start blasting Penderecki's Threnody to correct them! :laugh:

;D

Quote from: Daverz on October 25, 2023, 11:16:34 AMMy goto is Xenakis's Kraanerg.

;D

Excellent correctives, gentlemen.

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 25, 2023, 11:42:15 AM
Quote from: Cato on October 25, 2023, 03:16:17 AMDo you recall which recording you heard as a teenager?  Yes, the single note is indicated in the Nowak score at bar 68, although no special emphasis is indicated, e.g. no > is there nor is there a staccato dot.

My Jochum DGG performance has the timpanist simply ending his roll: the note is audible, but not in the fff which you heard, when you were a teenager.

Via YouTube, I checked performances conducted by Guenter Wand and Leonard Bernstein (the note is there, but not emphasized), Carlo Maria Giulini, Carl Schuricht, Herbert Von Karajan (the note is inaudible in all three!), and also checked Simon Rattle's version with the Finale (again, not emphasized).

I do recall hearing a performance, where the note is given a rather loud emphasis, and yes, has therefore a frightening effect!





Thanks Cato, I will try to remember the recording, it was purchased c 1984 and I think it was a DG cassette tape. Interesting the number of recordings you have sampled that don't have it, I have listened to a few recordings (including some you mentioned) and in addition Horenstein doesn't have it either. However Asahina and Wildner do.

Also I'm no expert on orchestration, but do you put accents on timpani? perhaps I'm underestimating the subtlety of the timpanist's touch, but wouldn't an accent simply result in a louder note (the note is already fff)?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on October 25, 2023, 03:29:30 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 25, 2023, 11:42:15 AM...Also I'm no expert on orchestration, but do you put accents on timpani? perhaps I'm underestimating the subtlety of the timpanist's touch, but wouldn't an accent simply result in a louder note (the note is already fff)?

Back in the Pleistocene when I was still a percussionist, I had a wide variety of mallets and sticks for timpani and various drums. A timpanist can change to a harder and/or smaller mallet if there are repeated accented notes, but for the passage in question you'd just take a VERY firm grip on your large mallet for the one final note.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on October 25, 2023, 04:53:52 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 25, 2023, 11:42:15 AMThanks Cato, I will try to remember the recording, it was purchased c 1984 and I think it was a DG cassette tape. Interesting the number of recordings you have sampled that don't have it, I have listened to a few recordings (including some you mentioned) and in addition Horenstein doesn't have it either. However Asahina and Wildner do.

Also I'm no expert on orchestration, but do you put accents on timpani? perhaps I'm underestimating the subtlety of the timpanist's touch, but wouldn't an accent simply result in a louder note (the note is already fff)?


Quote from: LKB on October 25, 2023, 03:29:30 PMBack in the Pleistocene when I was still a percussionist, I had a wide variety of mallets and sticks for timpani and various drums. A timpanist can change to a harder and/or smaller mallet if there are repeated accented notes, but for the passage in question you'd just take a VERY firm grip on your large mallet for the one final note.


I believe that LKB answers your first question.  For the second question, I will send you to all those recordings where that quarter-note is swallowed up and interpreted simply as a signal for the timpanist to stop.

So, yes, you can definitely put accents on timpani parts.  E.g., in the Rondo-Finale of Mahler's Symphony #7, bars 6 and 12, the 8th-notes have > accents.  In fact, bar 12 has 8 8th-notes, all with accent marks!



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 15, 2023, 02:47:47 PM
Has anyone been interested in Organ Transcriptions of the Bruckner symphonies...or listened to any of these OEHMS CD's?

For those who know French:

https://www.crescendo-magazine.be/sixieme-de-bruckner-a-lorgue-un-breviaire-de-poesie-naturaliste-a-lucerne/ (https://www.crescendo-magazine.be/sixieme-de-bruckner-a-lorgue-un-breviaire-de-poesie-naturaliste-a-lucerne/)

Also:

"
Quote

This series marks the 200th anniversary of the birth of Anton Bruckner, which falls in 2024. It's dedicated to Bruckner's symphonies, most of which are heard in new transcriptions for organ performed by Hansjörg Albrecht. This latest album in the edition features Erwin Horn's transcription of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony, performed on the organ of the Musikverein in Vienna.



https://www.abruckner.com/store/abrucknercomexclus/current-releases-cds--dvds--blu-ray--lps/symphony--8-hansjoerg-albrecht---continuation-of-t/ (https://www.abruckner.com/store/abrucknercomexclus/current-releases-cds--dvds--blu-ray--lps/symphony--8-hansjoerg-albrecht---continuation-of-t/)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 16, 2023, 03:36:19 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 24, 2023, 03:58:11 PMHere's an interesting point. In the first movement of Bruckner's 9th, at bar 68 of the Nowak score to be exact, there is a minim timpani note notated; this occurs after five bars of convulsive statement of main theme fff with every instrument in the orchestra playing, the timpani accompanying with rolls fff. Now there is no change in the dynamic for the timpani notated so that single minim should be an enormous thud heard clearly, as all the other instruments have a tied note over the bar line and their notes will be dying away.

This is how I heard it the first time I listened to it as a teenager and it scared the willies out of me, I had never heard anything quite so frightening in music. However I have noticed that some in recordings the timpanist plays that note as a rather modest thump (so probably f or ff) and in some recordings the timpanist doesn't seem to play anything in that bar, which kind of ruins the effect for me.


Not 100% sure I'm looking at the right bar(s) - IMSLP has the manuscript copy of the score.  I think page 14 of the manuscript is the moment you mean.  But it looks as if the timps and all the orchestra have had a 4 bar crescendo marked in all parts "crescendo sempre" which is crowned by the fff marking again in all parts but everyone except the timpanist has "hat" accents in addition.  I've never really got/understood how as a player you differentiate between a "hat" accent and a standard "lying on its side" v accent.  My reading of that would be a collective momentary emphasis at the arrival of the fff but nothing different between the parts

https://vmirror.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/8/8c/IMSLP263145-PMLP07928-Bruckner_-_Symphony_No._9_in_D_minor_(1891-94_1st_version,_autograph_manuscript),_WAB_109_-_Mvt._1.pdf
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on November 16, 2023, 06:17:27 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 16, 2023, 03:36:19 AMNot 100% sure I'm looking at the right bar(s) - IMSLP has the manuscript copy of the score.  I think page 14 of the manuscript is the moment you mean.  But it looks as if the timps and all the orchestra have had a 4 bar crescendo marked in all parts "crescendo sempre" which is crowned by the fff marking again in all parts but everyone except the timpanist has "hat" accents in addition.  I've never really got/understood how as a player you differentiate between a "hat" accent and a standard "lying on its side" v accent.  My reading of that would be a collective momentary emphasis at the arrival of the fff but nothing different between the parts

https://vmirror.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/8/8c/IMSLP263145-PMLP07928-Bruckner_-_Symphony_No._9_in_D_minor_(1891-94_1st_version,_autograph_manuscript),_WAB_109_-_Mvt._1.pdf

Agogic ( "hat" ) accents have the extra energy more evenly spread through the note, without the initial emphasis. This gives the note the impression of added weight, which can be preferred where the harmonic movement has slowed, such as in the passage in question.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 16, 2023, 08:29:44 AM
Quote from: LKB on November 16, 2023, 06:17:27 AMAgogic ( "hat" ) accents have the extra energy more evenly spread through the note, without the initial emphasis. This gives the note the impression of added weight, which can be preferred where the harmonic movement has slowed, such as in the passage in question.

Thankyou for the explanation.  I can honestly say in over 40 years of professional orchestral playing NO conductor has ever explained/requested that difference.  But how can something be "accented" without an initial emphasis - which is after all what an 'accent' means......?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 16, 2023, 08:44:38 AM
Quote from: LKB on November 16, 2023, 06:17:27 AMAgogic ( "hat" ) accents have the extra energy more evenly spread through the note, without the initial emphasis. This gives the note the impression of added weight, which can be preferred where the harmonic movement has slowed, such as in the passage in question.


That is what I thought, until I read someone defining it as a combination of > and a staccato dot, the latter seeming therefore to contradict the "keep it loud all the way through" definition.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 16, 2023, 08:55:48 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 16, 2023, 08:44:38 AMThat is what I thought, until I read someone defining it as a combination of > and a staccato dot, the latter seeming therefore to contradict the "keep it loud all the way through" definition.

This kind of super-detailed definition is something beloved of musicologists and theorists but all but ignored in practice by performing musicians.  You can end up so tied up in "how short to make the dot", "how heavy to make the accent", "how long to sustain/not sustain" the 'extra' weight that the more important line and phrase in the music is lost.  Further more unless you're probably Gunter Wand and given the rehearsal time you simply do not have the luxury to spend time fixating on this kind of detail - even if you want to.......
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 16, 2023, 09:02:59 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 16, 2023, 08:55:48 AMThis kind of super-detailed definition is something beloved of musicologists and theorists but all but ignored in practice by performing musicians.  You can end up so tied up in "how short to make the dot", "how heavy to make the accent", "how long to sustain/not sustain" the 'extra' weight that the more important line and phrase in the music is lost.  Further more unless you're probably Gunter Wand and given the rehearsal time you simply do not hav eht eluxury to spend time fixating on this kind of detail - even if you want to.......


Are you saying that they spoil things?   ;D

I believe that they can do indeed spoil things at times!

Not unlike someone sniffing during an uproarious standing ovation: "But I heard several wrong notes!"   ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 16, 2023, 09:44:19 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 16, 2023, 09:02:59 AMAre you saying that they spoil things?  ;D

I believe that they can do indeed spoil things at times!

Not unlike someone sniffing during an uproarious standing ovation: "But I heard several wrong notes!"  ;)

There is value in detailed analysis of any Art but at the same time - especially in performing arts this takes little or no account of the spontaneity, the "here and now" that a great/inspiring performance needs to be.  For me, the great conductors are those who rehearse meticulously yet also leave room for expressive/interpretative freedom in performance.  That is what empowers players rather than having them tied up in knots over some tiny detail.  I remember once playing in an orchestra with a well-known/rather despotic leader who decided that a certain phrase was being played "too loud!!!!!!!!"  After about 6 repetitions where we were "still too loud!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" my desk partner and I decided to literally air bow - not play at all.  Guess what - yup, it was still wrong.

People who claim to hear wrong notes are really just signalling their own "knowledge" and "understanding"/"appreciation" of the work in question.  It really has little to do with the impact of the performance and instead is just a case of "look at me , I'm such a connoisseur".......
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 16, 2023, 11:41:32 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 16, 2023, 09:44:19 AMThere is value in detailed analysis of any Art but at the same time - especially in performing arts this takes little or no account of the spontaneity, the "here and now" that a great/inspiring performance needs to be.  For me, the great conductors are those who rehearse meticulously yet also leave room for expressive/interpretative freedom in performance.  That is what empowers players rather than having them tied up in knots over some tiny detail. I remember once playing in an orchestra with a well-known/rather despotic leader who decided that a certain phrase was being played "too loud!!!!!!!!"  After about 6 repetitions where we were "still too loud!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" my desk partner and I decided to literally air bow - not play at all.  Guess what - yup, it was still wrong.


You remind me of a very similar Bruckner story via Alma Mahler's memoirs: supposedly Bruckner was conducting an orchestra in one of his works, and things were "too loud."  Finally all the members decided to "Air Play" and not produce a single sound, at which point, apparently listening to his imagination, Bruckner proclaimed the volume to be "just right."  ;D


Quote[quote author=Roasted Swan link=msg=1539534 date=17001602

People who claim to hear wrong notes are really just signalling their own "knowledge" and "understanding"/"appreciation" of the work in question.  It really has little to do with the impact of the performance and instead is just a case of "look at me , I'm such a connoisseur".......


Amen!  😇
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on November 27, 2023, 05:50:56 PM
You see an interesting program here:

B R U C K N E R  S y m p h o n y  # 1


Dickie Wagner: Tristan und Isolde Prelude and Liebestod   ;D


And why do need to see Andris Nelsons hanging around and trying to pick up a date?   8)


(https://scontent-ord5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/406032491_1514183259124641_8147922014020770074_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=B3UmYFOv3XUAX8EIMu_&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-2.xx&oh=00_AfDQX8C-J6WtQ0PPFuk8I6H4h_ErfAYGN9eO2wmPLDllIA&oe=6569F779)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 05, 2023, 10:12:59 AM
I have not had a chance to hear this yet, but another Bruckner aficionado has recommended it:



From a group called Classical Music Reference Recordings:

Quote

"Furtwängler comes straight from the 19th century. Son of an archaeologist specialized in ancient Greece, consciously or not, he certainly lived from the inside this mythical belief that Germany was the successor of Greece, bearer of an idealistic message, both Dionysian and Apollonian. What he gives us to hear, it is not a restored past, "historically informed", it is the sound product of a sensitivity and a thought deeply anchored in the romantic era, in the time of Wagner, Brahms, Bruckner. The work would be an organic being whose interpreter, acting like an inspired prophet and as if in a trance, would bring out and feel the telluric forces that work it. Nothing could be more anti-modern than this idealistic conception. This is why, when one listens to a Furtwängler interpretation, one feels a different emotion




(My emphasis above.)

The high humidity in the above is not be missed!  ;)     

Certainly in 1942 the Dionysian "message" was already being delivered with a vengeance!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Wanderer on December 05, 2023, 12:01:14 PM
Quote from: Cato on December 05, 2023, 10:12:59 AM(My emphasis above.)

The high humidity in the above is not be missed!  ;)   

Certainly in 1942 the Dionysian "message" was already being delivered with a vengeance!


The highlighted passage certainly informed the great flair with which the German occupation forces committed atrocity after atrocity in Greece from April 1941 until their final defeat and withdrawal from the country in October 1944. They could not forgive us for still existing.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 05, 2023, 01:20:18 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on December 05, 2023, 12:01:14 PMThe highlighted passage certainly informed the great flair with which the German occupation forces committed atrocity after atrocity in Greece from April 1941 until their final defeat and withdrawal from the country in October 1944. They could not forgive us for still existing.


Somewhere in the 1984 movie about the infamous Wannsee Conference, I recall one of the participants worrying how to respond to people asking how the culture which produced Beethoven and Goethe could carry out "the final solution."

No verbatim record exists, although a summary of sorts was found after the war, and I believe Adolph Eichmann gave more specific details in his trial.

Anyway, in the movie, if I recall it correctly, the question of a response is simply batted away as not important.

One gets the impression from the participants that they would have not raised the problem to begin with...

Writer Guenter Eich, in an epilogue to a series of radio plays called Träume (Dreams) wrote of a solution for the future to follow, lest something like Nazism occur again.

Seid unbequem...seid Sand, nicht das Oel im Getriebe der Welt =

Be uncomfortable...be the sand, not the oil, in the gears of the world.

Eich's point was that there was obviously not enough sand in the gears of the Nazis!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Mandryka on December 11, 2023, 04:14:53 AM
Quite enjoying the Ken Russell film this afternoon

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on December 11, 2023, 08:25:10 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 11, 2023, 04:14:53 AMQuite enjoying the Ken Russell film this afternoon


Is this based on fact, ie. was Bruckner OCD about numbers?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on December 11, 2023, 08:57:20 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 11, 2023, 08:25:10 AMIs this based on fact, ie. was Bruckner OCD about numbers?

I mean it is Ken Russell so it is probably about sex and weird hallucinations! >:D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on December 11, 2023, 09:21:33 AM
There seems some evidence that Bruckner had some OCD features, including counting all kinds of things. I also read that when there were bad reviews of his symphonies he recounted the measures/bars to verify that he "had done everything correctly" (and thus certainly missed whatever point the reviewers might have had).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 11, 2023, 05:35:37 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on December 11, 2023, 04:14:53 AMQuite enjoying the Ken Russell film this afternoon





Quote from: DavidW on December 11, 2023, 08:57:20 AMI mean it is Ken Russell so it is probably about sex and weird hallucinations! >:D



Well, often that is true!


On Bruckner as a near mental case, here is an excellent article against it:

https://www.brucknerjournal.com/Issues/ewExternalFiles/17i.pdf (https://www.brucknerjournal.com/Issues/ewExternalFiles/17i.pdf)

Anton Bruckner: a non-pathological view on his personality and implications for his approach to the task of composing.

Malcolm Hatfield C. Psychol. A.F.B.Ps.S



Quote

...I don't like what may be called the 'received wisdom' explanations about Bruckner that are often given,
and indeed continue to be so given. An example is the introduction to the BBC Prom broadcast of Bruckner's
6th Symphony in the summer of 2012, that referred in a somewhat condescending way to his difficulties in
establishing relationships.

... It is almost as if the intention is to prove that Bruckner was slightly crazy or a troubled personality, or simplistically focused on theCatholic religion, or sexually repressed, or psychologically impaired in some other way.

Even the Professor of Psychology at University College London ...commented on Bruckner, 'wasn't he supposed to be rather OCD?' Others seem happy, for example, to refer to Bruckner's 'numeromania' in relation to his revision and numbering of the bars in his scores; however 'numeromania' does not exist as a psychiatric condition, so the use of the word could be interpreted as an attempt to claim understanding through use of a (probably spurious) label....

...(One should look at Bruckner's) personality in terms of focus, conscientiousness, courage and aspiration, even
though the stress that this created opened many demons in his own life. So on this reading, he is not a kind of
flawed or inadequate indecisive rustic genius, locked into a 19th-century Catholicism or the restrictions of
obsessive compulsive disorder, but a much more human individual...




Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 11, 2023, 05:59:51 PM
The topic on Bruckner's possible numeromania reminded me of Arnold Schoenberg's morbid fear of the number 13 (triskaidekaphobia).

Schoenberg sometimes numbered each bar in a manuscript, using 12A in place of "13."


https://www.jstor.org/stable/832890 (https://www.jstor.org/stable/832890)



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on December 12, 2023, 03:02:48 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 11, 2023, 05:59:51 PMThe topic on Bruckner's possible numeromania reminded me of Arnold Schoenberg's morbid fear of the number 13 (triskaidekaphobia).

Schoenberg sometimes numbered each bar in a manuscript, using 12A in place of "13."


https://www.jstor.org/stable/832890 (https://www.jstor.org/stable/832890)





True, if Bruckner did truly have a manic obsession about numbers, he's in good company with Schoenberg, at least  :laugh:
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on December 12, 2023, 03:48:04 AM
Someone with OCD or other "spleens" we'd classify as mental disorders today can be mostly functional in life. Cf. the Jack Nicholson character in "As good as it gets". He has severe OCD but is a successful pulp author.

And it should be arithmomania, not numeromania, please! ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 12, 2023, 12:24:08 PM
Courtesy of a Bruckner fan: Herbert Blomstedt with the Gewandhaus Orchester Leipzig.



Quote

"Bruckner's symphonies are strenuous alpine hikes, and Blomstedt is a mountain guide who not only has the next fork in the road in mind but knows every stone on the path before the group has even started. The listener observes an ongoing creative process as if watching a sculptor at work. Blomstedt's unique Bruckner cycle impressively reflects the extraordinary spirit of the long-standing partnership between the legendary conductor and the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig. The nine symphonies released in this box were recorded at the Gewandhaus Leipzig between 2005 and 2012.

With this new edition, the box set will be available for the first time across all digital platforms."



See:


https://accentus.com/discs/575/?fbclid=IwAR3Lo46a-OSv3DyBKrIpm1j146DyrbUWV60wriwTyG1-ruYWT_HWw7Nc-rI (https://accentus.com/discs/575/?fbclid=IwAR3Lo46a-OSv3DyBKrIpm1j146DyrbUWV60wriwTyG1-ruYWT_HWw7Nc-rI)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 14, 2023, 06:22:49 AM
From another Bruckner fan: part of a documentary showing a certain conductor rehearsing the Bruckner Mass #3:


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Death of Musicologist Cohrs
Post by: Cato on December 18, 2023, 05:25:32 AM
I came across this news item this morning: a download of all 4 movements of the completed Ninth Symphony is available in "FLAC" versions:

Quote

Bruckner enthusiasts worldwide were saddened by the news of the passing of Benjamin-Gunnar Cohrs on November 21, 2013. Mr. Cohrs was a tireless researcher and was best known for his collaborative reconstruction of the Finale to Bruckner's Symphony No. 9. At the time of his passing Cohrs was working on his own "Urtext Edition" of the symphonies.

Cohrs was also a conductor, but we have few examples of his work. One such example is the download this month as we pay our respects.





https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/december23/ (https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/december23/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 22, 2023, 09:17:18 AM
Concerning last-minute Christmas presents, one of the greatest performances of not just the Bruckner Fifth Symphony, but of anything!


(https://scontent-ord5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/412988610_298640266509012_6473358039195618966_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=BWrl9__qRkwAX8ALgDw&_nc_oc=AQn6kljsZgMBWLINouz2Vwir7Nt19pEKbLHdgeA-I9w9eSfGqiX_RWCIRpZYgRdlcuSqQsPRCYDcn_rT_TuZeqUx&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-2.xx&oh=00_AfCtNayNMi8a59Odv5aM_m-rGLYHA89fLiy_rD17qIb6TA&oe=658AEF31)


Note the date: December 4th!  😇
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 22, 2023, 09:22:51 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 22, 2023, 09:17:18 AMConcerning last-minute Christmas presents, one of the greatest performances of not just the Bruckner Fifth Symphony, but of anything!


(https://scontent-ord5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/412988610_298640266509012_6473358039195618966_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=BWrl9__qRkwAX8ALgDw&_nc_oc=AQn6kljsZgMBWLINouz2Vwir7Nt19pEKbLHdgeA-I9w9eSfGqiX_RWCIRpZYgRdlcuSqQsPRCYDcn_rT_TuZeqUx&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-2.xx&oh=00_AfCtNayNMi8a59Odv5aM_m-rGLYHA89fLiy_rD17qIb6TA&oe=658AEF31)


Note the date: December 4th!  😇

My favourite version of No.5 and definitely one of my favourite Bruckner performances of any symphony by anyone.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on December 22, 2023, 09:34:05 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 22, 2023, 09:22:51 AMMy favourite version of No.5 and definitely one of my favourite Bruckner performances of any symphony by anyone.

I may have heard this... may have even commented on the performance right here in this thread.

But since l can't remember for sure, l have an excuse for seeking it out while I'm at work tonight.  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Atriod on December 23, 2023, 03:09:11 PM
I do wish they'd recorded Jochum more live in his later years like they did with Gunter Wand.
Quote from: Cato on December 22, 2023, 09:17:18 AMConcerning last-minute Christmas presents, one of the greatest performances of not just the Bruckner Fifth Symphony, but of anything!


(https://scontent-ord5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/412988610_298640266509012_6473358039195618966_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=BWrl9__qRkwAX8ALgDw&_nc_oc=AQn6kljsZgMBWLINouz2Vwir7Nt19pEKbLHdgeA-I9w9eSfGqiX_RWCIRpZYgRdlcuSqQsPRCYDcn_rT_TuZeqUx&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-2.xx&oh=00_AfCtNayNMi8a59Odv5aM_m-rGLYHA89fLiy_rD17qIb6TA&oe=658AEF31)


Note the date: December 4th!  😇

Alternative art for those looking for it:

(https://i.imgur.com/Q5snUZc.jpg)

And completely agree, this is a phenomenal performance.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 23, 2023, 04:15:50 PM



Quote from: Atriod on December 23, 2023, 03:09:11 PMI do wish they'd recorded Jochum more live in his later years like they did with Gunter Wand.

Alternative art for those looking for it:

(https://i.imgur.com/Q5snUZc.jpg)

And completely agree, this is a phenomenal performance.




Thank you!


The orchestra - and the audience - really responded to Eugen Jochum at this performance!


Quote from: LKB on December 22, 2023, 09:34:05 PMI may have heard this... may have even commented on the performance right here in this thread.

But since l can't remember for sure, l have an excuse for seeking it out while I'm at work tonight.  ;D



Excellent idea!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on December 25, 2023, 11:29:57 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 18, 2023, 05:25:32 AMI came across this news item this morning: a download of all 4 movements of the completed Ninth Symphony is available in "FLAC" versions:

https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/december23/ (https://www.abruckner.com//downloads/downloadofthemonth/december23/)

By coincidence, I clicked this thread to ask the experts: are Rattle/EMI and Wildner/Naxos still the two best recordings of the completed four movement Ninth?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 25, 2023, 12:08:26 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 25, 2023, 11:29:57 AMBy coincidence, I clicked this thread to ask the experts: are Rattle/EMI and Wildner/Naxos still the two best recordings of the completed four movement Ninth?


Yes, however, I like the Simon Rattle/EMI performance the best!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 28, 2023, 05:33:23 AM
From a comment by a Swedish fan on another Bruckner website: I thought it was quite humorous as well as enthusiastic.


Quote

"My first experience of Bruckner was at Berwaldhallen, with SRSO (Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra) and
Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos, in Symphony 5, ("The cathedral symphony"), in 1995.

I was absolutely flarbogasted, it was absolutely marvelous.

I almost levitated from my chair!

Since then Bruckner is my absolute "master" regarding this musical period.

Though he under his life struggled - in many aspects - he gave mankind a wonderful music treasure!


I have read many reactions about Bruckner, but being "flarbogasted" is one of the best!    8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on December 29, 2023, 02:08:37 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 28, 2023, 05:33:23 AMFrom a comment by a Swedish fan on another Bruckner website: I thought it was quite humorous as well as enthusiastic.

 

I have read many reactions about Bruckner, but being "flarbogasted" is one of the best!    8)

Well, I'm stealing " flarbogasted " for my personal use.

If that's a crime in Sweden, I'll take my chances.  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 30, 2023, 04:32:57 PM
From a Bruckner fan: with restored sound...1965!



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on December 30, 2023, 05:33:21 PM
Cato, thanks so much for posting that. The Third is not one that I listen to that often, but perhaps that will change. Listening now, and the interpretation and sound are pretty great. And PS, I don't have Schuricht in my ear often enough to describe him, so thanks for that, too.

1965, indeed!

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on December 31, 2023, 03:46:40 AM
Quote from: brewski on December 30, 2023, 05:33:21 PMCato, thanks so much for posting that. The Third is not one that I listen to that often, but perhaps that will change. Listening now, and the interpretation and sound are pretty great. And PS, I don't have Schuricht in my ear often enough to describe him, so thanks for that, too.

1965, indeed!

-Bruce

I recall one critic back in the good old days, c. 60 years ago, describe him basically as a no-frills conductor: "If you want a straight-forward performance of Bruckner,"...then Carl Schuricht is your man!   ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Maestro267 on January 01, 2024, 04:34:06 AM
Welcome to the Bruckner 200 year!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 01, 2024, 06:12:22 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on January 01, 2024, 04:34:06 AMWelcome to the Bruckner 200 year!


And to think I met Bruckner's music (The Symphony VII) when he was a mere 140!

I had read through the score at the library, found the DGG Berlin Philharmonic/Eugen Jochum recording, and have been hooked ever since!

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 01, 2024, 06:35:13 AM
Quote from: brewski on December 30, 2023, 05:33:21 PMCato, thanks so much for posting that. The Third is not one that I listen to that often, but perhaps that will change. Listening now, and the interpretation and sound are pretty great. And PS, I don't have Schuricht in my ear often enough to describe him, so thanks for that, too.

1965, indeed!

-Bruce


I found this for you today:

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Maestro267 on January 01, 2024, 08:50:07 AM
I'm realizing now I've known Bruckner's music for 17 years now, almost half my life.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 01, 2024, 09:09:19 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on January 01, 2024, 08:50:07 AMI'm realizing now I've known Bruckner's music for 17 years now, almost half my life.


My percentage is above 80% !   :o    8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on January 02, 2024, 04:57:52 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 01, 2024, 06:35:13 AMI found this for you today:


And thank you for that! Haven't listened yet, but will be a great way to start the new year.

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 02, 2024, 06:53:28 AM
Quote from: brewski on January 02, 2024, 04:57:52 AMAnd thank you for that! Haven't listened yet, but will be a great way to start the new year.

-Bruce

You are quite welcome!

The Austrians are prepared for Bruckner's 200th birthday!

https://www.anton-bruckner-2024.at/en/ (https://www.anton-bruckner-2024.at/en/)

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on January 02, 2024, 08:10:02 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 01, 2024, 09:09:19 AMMy percentage is above 80% !   :o    8)

And the years far, far more!! >:D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on January 02, 2024, 10:32:47 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on January 01, 2024, 08:50:07 AMI'm realizing now I've known Bruckner's music for 17 years now, almost half my life.
you should change your screenname. I always think you were born in 1967 ;)
I have known (some of) Bruckner's music about twice as long, i.e. as long as you have been alive which is 2/3 of my life and this makes me feel quite old (still a bit younger than *1967 ;)) I think the first CD I bought was Wand's 1970s recording of the 5th probably in 1989 but I had probably heard at least the 4th and maybe another one before that, borrowed from a friend or so.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on January 02, 2024, 11:21:05 AM
My introduction to Bruckner was the 4th and 9th performed by Jochum/Dresden which I purchased from Tower Records in 1997. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Maestro267 on January 02, 2024, 11:40:58 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 02, 2024, 10:32:47 AMyou should change your screenname. I always think you were born in 1967 ;)

I'll try MaestroCCLXVII ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 03, 2024, 02:45:09 AM
Some items from a Bruckner website: a recording of Bruckner's Symphony I with The Osaka Philharmonic conducted by Takashi Asahina, whose name came up recently in other topics.

Note that the overture was recorded in a cathedral!

(https://78experience.com/image/cache/catalog/07%202023%20a/1285%20DA-800x800.jpg)


https://78experience.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=221&product_id=7320 (https://78experience.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=221&product_id=7320)


Also, The Gerd Schaller Project for Bruckner's 200th birthday:

Quote

BRUCKNER2024 is a large-scale project since 2011 by the conductor Gerd Schaller with the aim of performing all symphonies of Anton Bruckner in all versions on the concert stage until the composer's 200th birthday in 2024 and recording them on CD. The Project also includes not only all symphonies in all versions but also the intermediate variants....


See:

https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/features/gerrd-schallers-bruckner--2024-project/ (https://www.abruckner.com/editorsnote/features/gerrd-schallers-bruckner--2024-project/)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on January 03, 2024, 07:35:56 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 02, 2024, 11:21:05 AMMy introduction to Bruckner was the 4th and 9th performed by Jochum/Dresden which I purchased from Tower Records in 1997. :)

My own baptism into the " Church of Anton " ( my personal nickname for Bruckner fandom, conceived only a moment ago while starting this post ) was also facilitated via Tower Records, in 1977 or '78.

I was hanging out in the Classical section of the Mountain View, CA store ( my future workplace ) speaking with my best college friend. He paused our conversion, gave me a " hold on a moment " sign and walked over to the play stock. He pulled a green box out ( von Karajan's second DG recording, with the BPO ), opened it and placed an LP on the section's Bang & Olufsen turntable.

After the usual vinyl interval,  tremolo strings on E and G# quietly filled the room. A moment passed, then E Major was confirmed with horn and celli in unison, gazing towards Heaven through an arpeggiated lens.

I was already hooked, and l had absolutely no clue who l was listening to.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on January 03, 2024, 08:14:23 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on January 02, 2024, 11:40:58 AMI'll try MaestroCCLXVII ;)
But you don't want to divulge the meaning? born July 26th? But don't you write the dates wrong in the US
(FWIW 498 in my name refers to Mozart's Kegelstatt Trio)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on January 03, 2024, 11:08:29 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 03, 2024, 08:14:23 AMBut don't you write the dates wrong in the US
Maestro is Welsh.

I just Googled "Op. 267" ... it could be a piece by Josef Strauss, Alan Hovhaness's harp concerto, or Schubert's Trinklied.  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 03, 2024, 12:57:52 PM
Quote from: LKB on January 03, 2024, 07:35:56 AMMy own baptism into the " Church of Anton " ( my personal nickname for Bruckner fandom, conceived only a moment ago while starting this post ) was also facilitated via Tower Records, in 1977 or '78.

I was hanging out in the Classical section of the Mountain View, CA store ( my future workplace ) speaking with my best college friend. He paused our conversion, gave me a " hold on a moment " sign and walked over to the play stock. He pulled a green box out ( von Karajan's second DG recording, with the BPO ), opened it and placed an LP on the section's Bang & Olufsen turntable.

After the usual vinyl interval,  tremolo strings on E and G# quietly filled the room. A moment passed, then E Major was confirmed with horn and celli in unison, gazing towards Heaven through an arpeggiated lens.


I was already hooked, and l had absolutely no clue who l was listening to.
  :laugh:\



What a great story!  Yes, after imagining that opening while reading the score, and then hearing it on the DGG Jochum recording, I was hooked forever!  ;D



😇😇😇The Church of Anton!😇😇😇  Excellent!



Certainly one of its bishops must be Eugen Jochum!


On that basis, how about this?


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Brian on January 03, 2024, 01:27:46 PM
First ever listen to the finale:

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/58/87/0825646328758_600.jpg)

Rattle's performance of the first three movements may not quite be my favorite - not as razor-sharp as Blomstedt or as hugely passionate as Honeck, just for example - but he does a really good job setting you up for the finale. The adagio doesn't "feel like the end" - you need there to be more, need a resolution. And the beginning of the finale is so satisfying in this way. It's like when your favorite book series gets a sequel that starts right where it left off.

However, the finale is - like the rest of the symphony - a tough nut. I think the first 22 minutes or so are totally successful, if not totally attractive. Like the Fifth, this is one of those finales where Bruckner is setting up a lot of dominoes, and then at the end he's going to knock 'em all down. You know he will get to the payoff, but there's so much setup, and the melodic material is not as immediately attractive as in the first three movements. Throughout all this, the orchestra sounds great and I can't identify where the reconstruction fits in. It all sounds original and all sounds "right."

...And then there are the last 60 seconds, with the final transition to major key. This was completely invented by the reconstructors, as Bruckner left the last dozen or so bars blank. The final resolved melody, as played by the trumpets, is so simple and so trite that it completely deflates the soufflé. I can hear that the shape of the melody echoes the ending of the first movement, and also has echoes of material in the third. But it's been simplified down to a cliché that Bruckner would have rejected. There has to be a better, more complex, more satisfying way to phrase this final melody.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: vers la flamme on January 04, 2024, 04:17:23 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 02, 2024, 10:32:47 AMyou should change your screenname. I always think you were born in 1967 ;)
I have known (some of) Bruckner's music about twice as long, i.e. as long as you have been alive which is 2/3 of my life and this makes me feel quite old (still a bit younger than *1967 ;)) I think the first CD I bought was Wand's 1970s recording of the 5th probably in 1989 but I had probably heard at least the 4th and maybe another one before that, borrowed from a friend or so.

You mean you weren't born in 1998?  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on January 04, 2024, 04:47:33 AM
I explained above that it's from a Koechel number.

Now "267" is NOT a moderately well known BWV, Deutsch, Koechel or opus number, otherwise I'd have considered the option. Of course it could be anything but born in 1967 would be reasonable in the demographics of classical music internet fora, that might be why my mind locked into that interpretation.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 04, 2024, 05:11:44 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 03, 2024, 01:27:46 PMFirst ever listen to the finale:

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/58/87/0825646328758_600.jpg)

Rattle's performance of the first three movements may not quite be my favorite - not as razor-sharp as Blomstedt or as hugely passionate as Honeck, just for example - but he does a really good job setting you up for the finale. The adagio doesn't "feel like the end" - you need there to be more, need a resolution. And the beginning of the finale is so satisfying in this way. It's like when your favorite book series gets a sequel that starts right where it left off.

However, the finale is - like the rest of the symphony - a tough nut. I think the first 22 minutes or so are totally successful, if not totally attractive. Like the Fifth, this is one of those finales where Bruckner is setting up a lot of dominoes, and then at the end he's going to knock 'em all down. You know he will get to the payoff, but there's so much setup, and the melodic material is not as immediately attractive as in the first three movements. Throughout all this, the orchestra sounds great and I can't identify where the reconstruction fits in. It all sounds original and all sounds "right."

...And then there are the last 60 seconds, with the final transition to major key. This was completely invented by the reconstructors, as Bruckner left the last dozen or so bars blank. The final resolved melody, as played by the trumpets, is so simple and so trite that it completely deflates the soufflé. I can hear that the shape of the melody echoes the ending of the first movement, and also has echoes of material in the third. But it's been simplified down to a cliché that Bruckner would have rejected. There has to be a better, more complex, more satisfying way to phrase this final melody.


Professor John Phillips, a member of the quartet, has had reservations: here is the revised finale which he completed in MIDI: performances by real orchestras will be available this year.


Quote

"(The symphony with his revised Finale) is being done in Karlsruhe, Tokyo, Manchester and (next year) Amsterdam; the Karlsruhe performance (February) is being live streamed and will also be permanently posted on YouTube. Manchester is also planning a CD release."

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 07, 2024, 11:07:02 AM
Since we have been discussing Bruckner performances on the What Are You Listening To topic...


...and because another Bruckner website has had people discussing Pierre Boulez and his interest in Bruckner later in his career:





From a review of a concert with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra:

Quote

"...He approached the massive cyclic structure with a composer's appreciation of how sound moves, builds, decays in space.

He bound the four movements together into a single statement, keeping the line firm and moving forward through Bruckner's typical starts and stops.

With his usual clarity Boulez sorted out the intricately woven counterpoint of the huge finale, building each appearance of the fugue steadily and without a hint of pomposity...."



See:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2000-10-28-0010280083-story.html (https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2000-10-28-0010280083-story.html)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 07, 2024, 11:17:11 AM
Concerning Boulez and Bruckner from a review of the DGG Eighth Symphony conducted by Pierre Boulez:


Quote

"Reading through Pierre Boulez's collection of essays, Orientations, the reader will find a single entry for Bruckner. It is in the essay, Mahler: Our Contemporary and Boulez writes only that 'Bruckner and Mahler appear as the Castor and Pollux of the symphony'. How extraordinary, therefore, to find Boulez not only conducting a Bruckner symphony (the only one he has ever conducted) but also giving us a performance of quite astonishing power. Both the first and second movements seethe with an electricity I have not encountered elsewhere, and the third and fourth movements are beautifully expansive without being in the slightest bit self-indulgent. It is a remarkable disc. ..."


This was written before Pierre Boulez began conducting other Bruckner symphonies, e.g. see above for the Fifth Symphony performance.


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/nov00/bruckner8boulez.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/nov00/bruckner8boulez.htm)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 07, 2024, 06:25:09 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 03, 2024, 01:27:46 PM...And then there are the last 60 seconds, with the final transition to major key. This was completely invented by the reconstructors, as Bruckner left the last dozen or so bars blank.

I understand that the entire symphony was completed in bifolios, but the last several were stolen by people thieving in Bruckner's apartment after this death. The reconstructors had various bits of evidence on which to base their reconstruction of the final bars...

I understand what you mean about a trite melody at the end, but the endings of all Bruckner symphonies are blazes of sounds with the themes reduced to very simple patterns; I don't think the reconstructors have done a bad job.

However I will be interesting to see what Phillips new revision sounds like in orchestral sound.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on January 07, 2024, 06:50:45 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 07, 2024, 11:17:11 AMConcerning Boulez and Bruckner from a review of the DGG Eighth Symphony conducted by Pierre Boulez:


This was written before Pierre Boulez began conducting other Bruckner symphonies, e.g. see above for the Fifth Symphony performance.


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/nov00/bruckner8boulez.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/nov00/bruckner8boulez.htm)

Was surprised and pleased to see this review was written by Marc Bridle, a former colleague with whom I'm still in touch. So thank you! He'll be very happy to know that someone cited his article, written (hard to believe) almost 25 years ago.

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on January 08, 2024, 12:21:13 PM
While trying to answer the question of what mp3 player did I buy 14 years ago, I accidentally found that I used to own the Wand Bruckner box set!  And here I thought it was a new discovery for me.  I'm telling you sometimes my memory is awful! ::)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Atriod on January 08, 2024, 12:38:13 PM
Has anyone heard Wand's late in life live Bruckner recordings that came out on King in Japan?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 09, 2024, 08:55:23 AM
Quote from: Atriod on January 08, 2024, 12:38:13 PMHas anyone heard Wand's late in life live Bruckner recordings that came out on King in Japan?





Would this be one of them?  The Symphony V in a performance from 1996:


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Atriod on January 09, 2024, 09:48:04 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 09, 2024, 08:55:23 AMWould this be one of them?  The Symphony V in a performance from 1996:




It's not, they're on King not RCA. I will have to see if the King dates are the same as the ones on Hanssler.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 09, 2024, 04:14:09 PM
From the What Are You Listening To topic:


Quote from: Linz on January 09, 2024, 10:54:40 AMBruckner Symphony No. 1 in C Minor, 1891 1866-1868 Linz version, Markus Poschner, Bruckner Orchester Linz






Quote from: Linz on January 09, 2024, 12:52:03 PMBruckner Symphony No. 2 in C Minor, 1872 First concept version. Ed. William Carragan, Altomonte Orchester St. Florian, Rémy Ballot 



Linz!  Can you give us a review of these?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 11, 2024, 03:38:56 AM
The Bruckner Symphony II: it has one of his finest slow movements, painful and anguished at times, yet offering hope in its conclusion.

This performance is powerful and energetic, but, we expect that from Herr von Karajan and Company!



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 11, 2024, 06:29:35 PM
A cartoon by German artist Otto Böhler, who apparently liked Bruckner very much!


(https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/417508864_10219581919457384_7117149753410629974_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=c42490&_nc_ohc=G7VrdAGuxpkAX-qzm4D&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfBhrO1nrJMUpSg_BwfmvXCoWCIoHsMgw5ZS2I1Ult9rcQ&oe=65A56DAE)


"Der Künstler wallt im Sonnenschirm, die Tintenbuben hinterdrin."


"The artist strolls with a parasol, the ink boys (stroll) behind in his shadow."
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on January 13, 2024, 12:21:15 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 03, 2024, 12:57:52 PMWhat a great story!  Yes, after imagining that opening while reading the score, and then hearing it on the DGG Jochum recording, I was hooked forever!  ;D



😇😇😇The Church of Anton!😇😇😇  Excellent!



Certainly one of its bishops must be Eugen Jochum!


On that basis, how about this?



I've only ever conducted two choral works in the concert hall, in 1987. One was Mendelssohn's Auf dem Berg. The other was Bruckner's Locus Iste.  8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on January 13, 2024, 11:33:59 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 11, 2024, 06:29:35 PMA cartoon by German artist Otto Böhler, who apparently liked Bruckner very much!


(https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/417508864_10219581919457384_7117149753410629974_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=c42490&_nc_ohc=G7VrdAGuxpkAX-qzm4D&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfBhrO1nrJMUpSg_BwfmvXCoWCIoHsMgw5ZS2I1Ult9rcQ&oe=65A56DAE)


"Der Künstler wallt im Sonnenschirm, die Tintenbuben hinterdrin."


"The artist strolls with a parasol, the ink boys (stroll) behind in his shadow."
The ink boys are apparently the critics. But this cannot be really appreciated without the "original" which is from the first and still famous (like Carroll's Alice everyone used to quote certain verses from this until quite recently) German children's picture book with (sometimes brutally educational stories), "Der Struwwelpeter" (1845, by the Frankfurt physician and psychiatrist Heinrich Hofmann).
In one of these stories children were mocking a black guy and as punishment are dipped into an enormous inkwell by a gigantic St Nicholas, so that they end up far blacker than the one they mocked (the message sounds a bit mixed today but it was fairly progressive then... ;))

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/H_Hoffmann_Struwwel_12.jpg)

The caption says (the asterisked verses were modified for the Bruckner caricature, I am not trying a verse translation!)
"Here you see how black they are
far blacker than the moorish child.
*The moor ahead in the shining sun
*the inkboys behind him.
And if they had not laughed at him,
St. Nicholas would not have turned them black."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struwwelpeter
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 14, 2024, 04:06:03 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 13, 2024, 11:33:59 PMThe ink boys are apparently the critics. But this cannot be really appreciated without the "original" which is from the first and still famous (like Carroll's Alice everyone used to quote certain verses from this until quite recently) German children's picture book with (sometimes brutally educational stories), "Der Struwwelpeter" (1845, by the Frankfurt physician and psychiatrist Heinrich Hofmann).

In one of these stories children were mocking a black guy and as punishment are dipped into an enormous inkwell by a gigantic St Nicholas, so that they end up far blacker than the one they mocked (the message sounds a bit mixed today but it was fairly progressive then... ;))

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/H_Hoffmann_Struwwel_12.jpg)

The caption says (the asterisked verses were modified for the Bruckner caricature, I am not trying a verse translation!)
"Here you see how black they are
far blacker than the moorish child.
*The moor ahead in the shining sun
*the inkboys behind him.
And if they had not laughed at him,
St. Nicholas would not have turned them black."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struwwelpeter



Ausgezeichnet!  Vielen Dank für die Informationen!   Höchst interessant!


Als ich Deutsch unterrichtet habe, fand ich ab und zu Auszüge dieses Kinderbuches, aber ohne die Bilder!  Richtig, echt brutal sehen uns solche Geschichten heutzutage aus.


Ja, der Kern des Gedichtes bleibt aber ein grosser Faust vor der Nase!  😇 






Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ultralinear on January 14, 2024, 04:42:23 AM
Some years ago a musical-theatre group here made a stage show from some of the stories, which quite a number of parents seemed mistakenly to have thought would make a suitable entertainment for their offspring.  The cruelty was imaginatively graphic - I recall particularly the tale of the boy who wouldn't stop sucking his thumbs, and ended up having them chopped off - long ribbons of "blood" everywhere - and the performance was punctuated periodically by adults in the audience getting to their feet and leading a line of white-faced traumatised small children from the auditorium, to ironic farewell waves from the performers.
 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 14, 2024, 05:19:55 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on January 14, 2024, 04:42:23 AMSome years ago a musical-theatre group here made a stage show from some of the stories, which quite a number of parents seemed mistakenly to have thought would make a suitable entertainment for their offspring.  The cruelty was imaginatively graphic - I recall particularly the tale of the boy who wouldn't stop sucking his thumbs, and ended up having them chopped off - long ribbons of "blood" everywhere - and the performance was punctuated periodically by adults in the audience getting to their feet and leading a line of white-faced traumatised small children from the auditorium, to ironic farewell waves from the performers.
 

Wow!  How post-modern can you get?!

For those interested:

https://www.amazon.com/Struwwelpeter-English-Translation-Childrens-Classics/dp/0486284697 (https://www.amazon.com/Struwwelpeter-English-Translation-Childrens-Classics/dp/0486284697)

We should mention Max und Moritz by Wilhelm Busch, which I used in my German II classes, where the two badly behaved boys come to a comical, yet, to be sure, deadly end!

Well beyond any Tom and Jerry violence!   ;D


(https://www.gutenberg.org/files/17161/17161-h/images/7-12.jpg)


Anyway...somebody on another website was pushing this as the Best Bruckner Symphony III performance: Karl Böhm and the Vienna Philharmonic:


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Jo498 on January 14, 2024, 09:48:00 AM
Wilhelm Busch is sometimes even more cruel (but mostly a bit later 1870s, I think) but was mostly not intended for such small children.
I think most of the stories and several more pictures can be found following links from the wikipedia link I gave above.
The cut off thumbs of the thumbsucker is the most graphic and disproportional but there is also burning to death (because playing with fire) and dying for refusing to eat soup as well as getting blown far away in a rainstorm.
There is apparently even a Musical "Shockheaded Peter"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shockheaded_Peter_(musical)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ultralinear on January 14, 2024, 10:18:12 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 14, 2024, 09:48:00 AMThere is apparently even a Musical "Shockheaded Peter"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shockheaded_Peter_(musical)

Yes that's the show I saw, performed by the Tigerlilies. "...a somewhat darker tone".  You're not kidding. ;D   More Itchy & Scratchy than Tom & Jerry.  I loved it. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Atriod on January 14, 2024, 02:53:27 PM
New to me (I have all the EMI and DG recordings) was Celibidache's live Sony recordings. Listened to Symphony 8 a couple of times, what an incredible performance. And purely by accident the second time as part of a spiritual double header with Michel Block playing Franck (particularly the Prelude, Choral, and Fugue).

(https://i.discogs.com/li4I-yst9W3866undrvxy8U_8tr9NYLt3837Xyd_4yg/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:525/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE1Mzk1/NDE4LTE1OTA4NDQx/ODktMjg3MS5qcGVn.jpeg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ultralinear on January 15, 2024, 01:00:48 AM
Quote from: Atriod on January 14, 2024, 02:53:27 PMNew to me (I have all the EMI and DG recordings) was Celibidache's live Sony recordings. Listened to Symphony 8 a couple of times, what an incredible performance. And purely by accident the second time as part of a spiritual double header with Michel Block playing Franck (particularly the Prelude, Choral, and Fugue).

(https://i.discogs.com/li4I-yst9W3866undrvxy8U_8tr9NYLt3837Xyd_4yg/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:525/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE1Mzk1/NDE4LTE1OTA4NDQx/ODktMjg3MS5qcGVn.jpeg)

That's a nice looking set. :)   I have what I believe is the same performance of the 8th on an Altus disc, and you're right, it's terrific:

(https://i.discogs.com/yULEFkLVZHKP5t4XbHoOzQLQYzwgJEpTW_ajWAvxjUE/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:500/w:500/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEzMjQ2/MDEyLTE1NTA2NTYw/MjktODQwNC5qcGVn.jpeg)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 17, 2024, 11:31:43 PM
I've been listening to some of Thielemann's recordings. They seem very good to me. In particular his recording of No.0 might be the best I have heard of that work.

I suppose one reason for this might be that he always seems to have Rolls-Royce orchestras to conduct. But I think he must have learnt a lot of patience conducting all that Wagner; he doesn't seem to force or hurry the music, but he just lets it speak for itself.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 19, 2024, 05:16:22 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 17, 2024, 11:31:43 PMI've been listening to some of Thielemann's recordings. They seem very good to me. In particular his recording of No.0 might be the best I have heard of that work.

I suppose one reason for this might be that he always seems to have Rolls-Royce orchestras to conduct. But I think he must have learnt a lot of patience conducting all that Wagner; he doesn't seem to force or hurry the music, but he just lets it speak for itself.



I listened to excerpts of this performance via YouTube with headphones: the comments are all raves in various languages (at least, in the several which I can translate).

I checked the final bars of the last movement: the timpanist certainly can be heard!  There is a sudden decrease in volume at one point to create a new crescendo.

Some people in the crowd were so enthusiastic that they started clapping immediately...then it slowly struck them to wait for the conductor to turn around.  8)

Anyway, I will listen to the whole thing again: from the excerpts, this particular performance is very good.


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Atriod on January 19, 2024, 06:20:00 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 22, 2023, 09:17:18 AMConcerning last-minute Christmas presents, one of the greatest performances of not just the Bruckner Fifth Symphony, but of anything!


(https://scontent-ord5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/412988610_298640266509012_6473358039195618966_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dd5e9f&_nc_ohc=BWrl9__qRkwAX8ALgDw&_nc_oc=AQn6kljsZgMBWLINouz2Vwir7Nt19pEKbLHdgeA-I9w9eSfGqiX_RWCIRpZYgRdlcuSqQsPRCYDcn_rT_TuZeqUx&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-2.xx&oh=00_AfCtNayNMi8a59Odv5aM_m-rGLYHA89fLiy_rD17qIb6TA&oe=658AEF31)




Note the date: December 4th!  😇

Quote from: Atriod on December 23, 2023, 03:09:11 PMI do wish they'd recorded Jochum more live in his later years like they did with Gunter Wand.
Alternative art for those looking for it:

(https://i.imgur.com/Q5snUZc.jpg)

And completely agree, this is a phenomenal performance.

Gil Zilkha released a video on the 5th, he has it as one of the best as well.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 19, 2024, 07:33:43 AM
Quote from: Atriod on January 19, 2024, 06:20:00 AMGil Zilkha released a video on the 5th, he has it as one of the best as well.




Mr. Zilkha is in the club!   8)


No time yet for hearing the complete Thielemann/BRSO performance, but I hope to do so tomorrow morning.

Of the sound quality, of course, must one always be wary on YouTube.

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 20, 2024, 03:36:17 AM
Because of recommendations above I listened to this performance early this morning:




It was spoiled by YouTube's recent push for revenue, i.e. during the first movement, commercials arose at intervals of 7 minutes or so!  :o 


Anyway, Herr Thielemann elicits a very good performance from the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra.
The woodwinds are not ignored or overwhelmed, and Bruckner's little dialogues are emphasized (e.g. in the First Movement between the Flute and French Horn).


The Adagio was particularly fine, again there was emphasis on the solo woodwinds and "dialogues" in the counterpoint!  Not a great amount of anguish or drama in the brass, but not subdued either.


The Scherzo showed its "folk-dance" quality in an almost 18th-century manner.


No commercials during those, at least when I listened!


Tempos in the Finale were varied, as some moments were not Allegro moderato, but...some will find that within the boundaries of the conductor's power.

The final minutes sounded better today than they did yesterday!  Strange!  Maybe I had the volume too low in my headphones yesterday!  ;)



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 20, 2024, 03:43:39 AM
Concerning the Symphony #0...from a Bruckner fan on another website:

Quote

(The performance by Stanislaw Skowaczewski was particularly praised.)
 
Several other good ones you should hear, also. The pioneering stereo by Haitink and the Concertgebouw is top notch, as is Chailly and the RSO Berlin.


For symphonic muscle, the 2023 recorded performance by Rémy Ballot and the St Florian Altomonte Orchestra is extraordinary - currently available only in the Gramola boxed set of 10 symphonies but coming out as an individual SACD later this spring.



That information might interest members here!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lordlance on January 22, 2024, 06:42:30 AM
I heard Bruckner 1 by Thielemann and VPO but had to stop a few minutes in. The recording quality is really bad. Sony screwed over Thielemann. It's kind of recessed? Hard to describe but it's not good. Thankfully we have an entire cycle with Dresden and individual one offs with other orchestras like BRSO, BPO. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 22, 2024, 07:37:02 AM
Quote from: lordlance on January 22, 2024, 06:42:30 AM

I heard Bruckner 1 by Thielemann and VPO but had to stop a few minutes in. The recording quality is really bad.


Sony screwed over Thielemann. It's kind of recessed? Hard to describe but it's not good. Thankfully we have an entire cycle with Dresden and individual one offs with other orchestras like BRSO, BPO.


I cannot find any reviews outside of Amazon, where the set has nearly 100% 5-star ratings.

Sorry to hear that the sound is muffled or recessed!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lordlance on January 22, 2024, 08:51:50 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 22, 2024, 07:37:02 AMI cannot find any reviews outside of Amazon, where the set has nearly 100% 5-star ratings.

Sorry to hear that the sound is muffled or recessed!
Dave - who, granted, doesn't like Thielemann - talked on individual releases about the sound being poor but I heard it for myself with the Bruckner 1 disc. 

Huh I just Googled it. You're right. There's no proper review of the box set. How strange. This is the first complete Bruckner survey by VPO. That should in itself be a cause of interest even if it sucks.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 22, 2024, 09:06:08 AM
Quote from: lordlance on January 22, 2024, 08:51:50 AMDave - who, granted, doesn't like Thielemann - talked on individual releases about the sound being poor but I heard it for myself with the Bruckner 1 disc.

Huh I just Googled it. You're right. There's no proper review of the box set. How strange. This is the first complete Bruckner survey by VPO. That should in itself be a cause of interest even if it sucks.


That is exactly what I thought!

There might be a review of it on Gramophone, but it is unclear whether it really exists: you must "register" first, which usually means you will then be asked to pay for a subscription.   :o

I found a review of the Third Symphony, but nothing about the sound is mentioned:

https://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2021/May/Bruckner-sy3-19439861382.htm (https://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2021/May/Bruckner-sy3-19439861382.htm)



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on January 22, 2024, 09:49:33 AM
Quote from: lordlance on January 22, 2024, 08:51:50 AMDave - who, granted, doesn't like Thielemann - talked on individual releases about the sound being poor but I heard it for myself with the Bruckner 1 disc.

He is pretty generous on SQ so that is not a good sign if he didn't like the sound.  Really no excuse for a major label anytime in the past twenty years to screw that up imo.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on January 30, 2024, 01:53:00 PM
Here is a review of the Remy Ballot set:


https://musicwebinternational.com/2024/01/bruckner-10-symphonies-gramola/?fbclid=IwAR0i_cf7IU-JCZ82qltfeBJCgm9KRdXX459aHYJYxDV8xs1--tr5S6oA6Ho (https://musicwebinternational.com/2024/01/bruckner-10-symphonies-gramola/?fbclid=IwAR0i_cf7IU-JCZ82qltfeBJCgm9KRdXX459aHYJYxDV8xs1--tr5S6oA6Ho)


An excerpt:

Quote

... they have all already been reviewed here on MusicWeb by me and my colleagues and those reviews indicate that Ballot's concept of Bruckner is all of a piece: grand, patient – and very slow, in the Celibidache school. Brucknerians will know by now if they respond to his manner, whereas neophytes are advised to sample his style before committing to a purchase. Personally, I do admire and esteem these accounts, even if I would not necessarily make most of them the first introduction to Bruckner's symphonies or recommend this as a core set; however, I certainly want them as an adjunct or supplement to favourite versions as per my shortlist of preferred recordings – although Ballot's account of the 1872 "First concept version" of the Symphony no. 2 does indeed appear there as a prime recommendation....

Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Mathilde Kralik
Post by: Cato on February 01, 2024, 08:32:50 AM
I just discovered this link today via FaceBook.


A student of Bruckner's, Mathilde Kralik von Meyrswald, an Austrian composer who lived into the 1940's.


She composed mainly Lieder and smaller chamber works, but three operas and a few other orchestral works are included in her oeuvre.


A descendant is trying to find an audience for her works: this symphony was composed over a span of 40 years or so, completed when she was 85.


I have not yet heard it, but hope to find time tomorrow.



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 02, 2024, 12:34:35 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 30, 2024, 01:53:00 PMHere is a review of the Remy Ballot set:


https://musicwebinternational.com/2024/01/bruckner-10-symphonies-gramola/?fbclid=IwAR0i_cf7IU-JCZ82qltfeBJCgm9KRdXX459aHYJYxDV8xs1--tr5S6oA6Ho (https://musicwebinternational.com/2024/01/bruckner-10-symphonies-gramola/?fbclid=IwAR0i_cf7IU-JCZ82qltfeBJCgm9KRdXX459aHYJYxDV8xs1--tr5S6oA6Ho)


An excerpt:


I've just listened to Ballot's recording of the 6th. I think it's too slow. generally I like a slow tempo with Bruckner, but here the music goes so slowly that certain passages, particularly in the first movement, sound as though the ensemble is falling apart (I don't think it is). He doesn't hold the music together. My favourite Bruckner 6 is by Dennis Russell Davies, who, almost alone amongst conductors gives as a very deliberate finale (not the usual quick gallop other conductors present, or the loose amble that Ballot gives us). NB, Celibidache, ironically, isn't deliberate/slow enough in the finale of this work (at least in the recordings of his I have heard).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: foxandpeng on February 07, 2024, 02:52:43 AM
Cross Post...

It's been a while.

Anton Bruckner
Symphony 00 'Study Symphony'
Georg Tintner
Royal Scottish National Orchestra
Naxos


It has always been my plan to join the 'Bruckner 200' listening fest, because I have appreciated him so much over the years. I've realised just how long it is since I last listened with any commitment to his symphonies, so I'm starting a bit earlier in the year than I intended. Probably lots of Tintner while I find my feet again, after which I can work on figuring out which versions of each work and which performances I prefer.

Feels like a bit of a tall task, but not so different from my really worthwhile traversals of DSCH SQs and Miaskovsky symphonies in the last couple of years.

*Note to self... here are Tintner's choices and versions...

"Study" Symphony in F minor (1863 - Nowak)
Symphony #0 in D minor "Die Nulte" (1869 - Nowak)
Symphony #1 in C minor (1866 - Linz; Carragan)
Symphony #2 in C minor (1872 - Carragan)
Symphony #3 in D minor "Wagner" (1873 - Nowak)
Symphony #4 in E Flat Major "Romantic" (1881 - Haas)
Symphony #5 in B Flat Major (1878 - Nowak/Haas)
Symphony #6 in A Major (1881 - Haas)
Symphony #7 in E Major (1883 - Haas)
Symphony #8 in C minor (1887 - Nowak)
Symphony #9 in D minor (1896 - Nowak)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on February 07, 2024, 03:46:15 AM
@foxandpeng My favorite Tintner is the 3rd.  I'm overall not that hot on his recordings though.  I would recommend Karajan, Jochum (either cycle), or Skrowacezski first.

And don't forget the masses, motets and the string quintet!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: foxandpeng on February 07, 2024, 06:13:17 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 07, 2024, 03:46:15 AM@foxandpeng My favorite Tintner is the 3rd.  I'm overall not that hot on his recordings though.  I would recommend Karajan, Jochum (either cycle), or Skrowacezski first.

And don't forget the masses, motets and the string quintet!

Haha. Thank you. Just a small list to start with, then :)

The Tintner was my entry point to Bruckner many years ago, so I confess a level of familiarity and entirely subjective 'rightness' about his approach, even though it has been a while. Your recs are now on my list, as are Wand, Inbal and Chailly. For now, at least :)

My preferences have predictably fallen with 4, 7, and 8, followed fairly closely by 6 and 5, with 3 and 2, and then the rest. It will be interesting to see what changes. Outside of the symphonies, I am a bit ignorant tbh, but glad to poke around. Hopefully, this anniversary year will stimulate me to new appreciation. Obliquely, it might also prod me to revisit Mahler, who has always seemed a bit too much like hard work for less immediate attraction. 

It all seems a bit Romantic compared to my usual fare...
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: foxandpeng on February 07, 2024, 07:16:33 AM
Anton Bruckner
Symphony 00 'Study Symphony' WAB99
Christian Thielemann
Wiener Philharmoniker
Sony


Nice. I like Thielemann's pacing in the first movement of this symphony. I know nothing about whether this is inexperienced juvenilia, unconvincing symphonic style, or much else about the composer's craft. I do like Bruckner, though.

I do sometimes wish that I could speak to the technical elements or architecture of the music I listen to. I suspect there is a whole other layer of benefit and enjoyment to be gained from understanding some of these features in the same way that understanding the nuts and bolts of poetry lifts appreciation to another level. That aside, I like music on whatever childish level I am able to enjoy it.

Thielemann uses the same WAB99 Nowak score as Tintner in the 00 - which is why I have chosen to listen almost back to back. I think I have that right, at least - I only know what I read :). I like the recording values here, and although I have only heard it once, felt it stood up to the Tintner timings. I appreciated the pacier first movement (more than 3 minutes faster), and felt the minor differences each way in the other three movements were negligible. Overall, it felt like a slicker and more taut performance but the point for me is that the music was enjoyable. Is the Thielemann better? I don't know :)

All good here and good to return to this music after donkey's years.

Go Anton.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: foxandpeng on February 08, 2024, 02:27:06 AM
Apologies for much posting. Any thoughts on the Simone Young cycle? She is warmly commended by the folk at music-web, and my first outing with the Bruckner 00 felt pretty positive. I have no illusions as to my level of expertise, so any impressions welcome 🙂

I did notice that her version choices were almost identical to Tintner with the earliest originals, which for me is a positive...

1. Symphony in F minor, "Study Symphony" (1863) WAB 99 [41:59]
rec. 22-23 February 2013
2. Symphony no. 0 in D minor, "Die Nullte" (1869) WAB 100 [49:41]
rec. 20 & 21 March 2012
3. Symphony no. 1 in C minor, "Linzer" (Urfassung 1865/66) WAB 101 [49:08]
rec. January 2010
4. Symphony no. 2 in C minor (Urfassung 1872) WAB 102 [71:22]
rec. 12 & 13 March 2006
5. Symphony no. 3 in D minor (Urfassung 1873) WAB 103 [68:38]
rec. 14-16 October 2006
6. Symphony no. 4 in E flat major, "Romantic" (Urfassung 1874) WAB 104 [70:01]
rec. 1-3 December 2007
7. Symphony no. 5 in B flat major (1873-75) WAB 105 [73:23]
rec. 1-2 March 2015
8. Symphony no. 6 in A major (1881) WAB 106 [54:37]
rec. 14-16 December 2013
9. Symphony no. 7 in E major (1883) WAB 107 [66:32]
rec. 29 & 30 August 2014
10 & 11. Symphony no. 8 in C minor (Urfassung 1887) WAB 108 [30:45 + 51:56 = 82:41]
rec. 14 & 15 December 2008
12. Symphony no. 9 in D minor (1887-94) WAB 109
rec. 25-27 October 2014 [59:01]
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 12, 2024, 11:56:54 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on February 08, 2024, 02:27:06 AMApologies for much posting. Any thoughts on the Simone Young cycle? She is warmly commended by the folk at music-web, and my first outing with the Bruckner 00 felt pretty positive. I have no illusions as to my level of expertise, so any impressions welcome 🙂

I did notice that her version choices were almost identical to Tintner with the earliest originals, which for me is a positive...

1. Symphony in F minor, "Study Symphony" (1863) WAB 99 [41:59]
rec. 22-23 February 2013
2. Symphony no. 0 in D minor, "Die Nullte" (1869) WAB 100 [49:41]
rec. 20 & 21 March 2012
3. Symphony no. 1 in C minor, "Linzer" (Urfassung 1865/66) WAB 101 [49:08]
rec. January 2010
4. Symphony no. 2 in C minor (Urfassung 1872) WAB 102 [71:22]
rec. 12 & 13 March 2006
5. Symphony no. 3 in D minor (Urfassung 1873) WAB 103 [68:38]
rec. 14-16 October 2006
6. Symphony no. 4 in E flat major, "Romantic" (Urfassung 1874) WAB 104 [70:01]
rec. 1-3 December 2007
7. Symphony no. 5 in B flat major (1873-75) WAB 105 [73:23]
rec. 1-2 March 2015
8. Symphony no. 6 in A major (1881) WAB 106 [54:37]
rec. 14-16 December 2013
9. Symphony no. 7 in E major (1883) WAB 107 [66:32]
rec. 29 & 30 August 2014
10 & 11. Symphony no. 8 in C minor (Urfassung 1887) WAB 108 [30:45 + 51:56 = 82:41]
rec. 14 & 15 December 2008
12. Symphony no. 9 in D minor (1887-94) WAB 109
rec. 25-27 October 2014 [59:01]


No, please, all your comments and recommendations are most welcome!



I did not know anything about a cycle by Simone Young, so I will try to find it!



A
Quote from: foxandpeng on February 07, 2024, 07:16:33 AMAnton Bruckner
Symphony 00 'Study Symphony' WAB99
Christian Thielemann
Wiener Philharmoniker
Sony


Nice. I like Thielemann's pacing in the first movement of this symphony. I know nothing about whether this is inexperienced juvenilia, unconvincing symphonic style, or much else about the composer's craft. I do like Bruckner, though.

I do sometimes wish that I could speak to the technical elements or architecture of the music I listen to. I suspect there is a whole other layer of benefit and enjoyment to be gained from understanding some of these features in the same way that understanding the nuts and bolts of poetry lifts appreciation to another level. That aside, I like music on whatever childish level I am able to enjoy it.

Thielemann uses the same WAB99 Nowak score as Tintner in the 00 - which is why I have chosen to listen almost back to back. I think I have that right, at least - I only know what I read :). I like the recording values here, and although I have only heard it once, felt it stood up to the Tintner timings. I appreciated the pacier first movement (more than 3 minutes faster), and felt the minor differences each way in the other three movements were negligible. Overall, it felt like a slicker and more taut performance but the point for me is that the music was enjoyable. Is the Thielemann better? I don't know :)

All good here and good to return to this music after donkey's years.

Go Anton.



The "Study Symphony" is not juvenilia per se, as Bruckner was already 40 years old when he composed it.


I have always thought that since he never destroyed the manuscript, he must have had some fondness for it and thought it worthwhile, and was not just sentimental about it being his first attempt at a symphony.



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 12, 2024, 11:58:09 AM
Concerning Simone Young:




Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on February 12, 2024, 01:02:31 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 12, 2024, 11:56:54 AMNo, please, all your comments and recommendations are most welcome!

Ditto!

Quote from: Cato on February 12, 2024, 11:56:54 AMI did not know anything about a cycle by Simone Young, so I will try to find it!

New to me as well. I see that in addition to the No. 1 you posted, there are others on YouTube, and I'll look forward to checking those out.

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: foxandpeng on February 12, 2024, 01:26:57 PM
Appreciated, both! Looks like a fruitful and busy year ahead 😁
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 14, 2024, 03:54:51 PM
There is a survey on another Bruckner website about a choice between...


Bruckner's Eighth Symphony: Haitink versus Celibidache - Nowak Version 1890


Celibidache's version lasts 105 minutes and Haitink's 73 minutes



Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Bernard Haitink - 73 min 55 sec





Munich Philharmonic Orchestra
conducted by Sergiu Celibidache


Live recording: 12 & 13 September 1993, Philharmonie am Gasteig, München 105 min






Which one would you choose?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on February 14, 2024, 04:29:21 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 14, 2024, 03:54:51 PMWhich one would you choose?  :laugh:

Wow. A difference of over 30 minutes with Celibidache. I haven't heard that one (and certainly will, just for the time difference), but the Haitink was one of the first Bruckner recordings I heard—and played endlessly. So he and the Amsterdammers get the nod at the moment, but wow. Half an hour.  :o

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 14, 2024, 05:13:39 PM
Quote from: brewski on February 14, 2024, 04:29:21 PMWow. A difference of over 30 minutes with Celibidache.

...but wow. Half an hour.  :o

-Bruce



"Wow, half an hour" was my reaction also!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on February 14, 2024, 05:14:34 PM
We live in a world where we can have both! 8)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on February 14, 2024, 07:06:29 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 14, 2024, 03:54:51 PMThere is a survey on another Bruckner website about a choice between...


Bruckner's Eighth Symphony: Haitink versus Celibidache - Nowak Version 1890


Celibidache's version lasts 105 minutes and Haitink's 73 minutes



Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Bernard Haitink - 73 min 55 sec





Munich Philharmonic Orchestra
conducted by Sergiu Celibidache


Live recording: 12 & 13 September 1993, Philharmonie am Gasteig, München 105 min






Which one would you choose?  :laugh:

Haitink, every time...  ;D

He has at least two other worthy offerings of the Eighth, his digital studio RCO recording from 1981 ( which a certain high-profile critic wrongly maintains is poorly recorded ), uploaded to YouTube piecemeal...

https://youtu.be/Mjy3jX8lbQU?si=_RJfiyK4mwqXYTZi  Movt. 1

and this live concert, also with the RCO:

https://youtu.be/sjSRv3MDQHU?si=Kb0ZZ0F9idzm9LS7

For both versions, I had to boost the volume somewhat.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 15, 2024, 03:42:23 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 14, 2024, 05:14:34 PMWe live in a world where we can have both! 8)


Despite many problems today (and show me an era without problems!), with Bruckner and all kinds of other composers being at our fingertips we can counterbalance them at least somewhat!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: New Performance of the Ninth with Latest Finale
Post by: Cato on February 15, 2024, 10:48:54 AM
I just discovered that a German orchestra performed the Ninth with the latest revision of the Finale by Professor John Phillips:


Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 15, 2024, 12:11:54 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 15, 2024, 10:48:54 AMI just discovered that a German orchestra performed the Ninth with the latest revision of the Finale by Professor John Phillips:



Er, bit of a warning, the orchestra was getting a bit tired by the end of the concert (which began with a very good performance of Sibelius' Violin Concerto). There are several rather teeth-clenching moments in it which detract somewhat from the Phillips' revision of the finale. Also the tempi are a bit slow and dragging  :-\
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 15, 2024, 12:56:08 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on February 08, 2024, 02:27:06 AMI did notice that her version choices were almost identical to Tintner with the earliest originals, which for me is a positive...

That was one of the distinguishing features of the Simone Young Cycle, the use of original editions of each symphony. I'm not too familiar with Tintner, but Imbal is another cycle which used the original editions.

At least in the 8th, I prefer the final edition, because one of my favorite passages in classical music (a cataclysmic passage in the coda of the first movement) was not in the initial edition (if I remember right).
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 15, 2024, 01:02:32 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 15, 2024, 12:11:54 PMEr, bit of a warning, the orchestra was getting a bit tired by the end of the concert (which began with a very good performance of Sibelius' Violin Concerto). There are several rather teeth-clenching moments in it which detract somewhat from the Phillips' revision of the finale. Also the tempi are a bit slow and dragging  :-\


There was a hint of that in one of the comments, so I am forewarned!

I think two or three other performances are scheduled by more accomplished orchestras this year, so perhaps they will be better.

I wondered about having the Sibelius first, rather than something shorter and less demanding on the orchestra as a whole.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on February 16, 2024, 06:21:19 AM
If this hasn't already been discussed... brilliant classics has a new release box set of Janowski.  I've never heard his Bruckner, but I love his Wagner!

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTU0NDYwMi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2OTkwMjE0Nzd9)

Opinions?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 16, 2024, 06:42:03 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 16, 2024, 06:21:19 AMIf this hasn't already been discussed... brilliant classics has a new release box set of Janowski.  I've never heard his Bruckner, but I love his Wagner!

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTU0NDYwMi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2OTkwMjE0Nzd9)

Opinions?

I love his Brahms on Pentatone. Is this Brilliant set re-release, or new recordings?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on February 16, 2024, 07:49:17 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 16, 2024, 06:42:03 AMI love his Brahms on Pentatone. Is this Brilliant set re-release, or new recordings?

No idea, I saw it on Presto!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 16, 2024, 08:49:49 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 16, 2024, 07:49:17 AMNo idea, I saw it on Presto!

It appears to be a re-release on CD of the Bruckner cycle Janowski did for Pentatone, originally SACD surround sound. Based on the Brahms cycle and Pentagon's engineering quality I'd be optimistic about it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 16, 2024, 09:25:10 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 16, 2024, 06:42:03 AMI love his Brahms on Pentatone. Is this Brilliant set re-release, or new recordings?

Its the Pentatone cycle but it looks like its standard CD not the SACD of the original releases - generally well reviewed....

EDIT:  Oops!  Identical post to Spotted Horses - although I had no idea the Pentagon had moved away from Military operations to CD releases.........
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 16, 2024, 09:45:28 AM
Here is an example from Janowski's Pentatone cycle: Bruckner's Symphony #1.



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 16, 2024, 10:31:35 AM
Looking back. I purchased the recording of #8 when it was released but no longer have it. I guess. Didn't like it, although my taste has changed since then. I have grown to appreciate less histrionic Bruckner.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ultralinear on February 16, 2024, 12:02:27 PM
I saw Janowski conduct the OSR in #5 some years ago (quite a few years, in fact) and I'm sorry to say that I hated it.  This was a minority view among the Bruckner enthusiasts assembled on that occasion, who generally spoke positively in terms of "honesty" and "truthfulness".  Which are very good things, no doubt.  But not necessarily enough for an engaging performance.

It seemed to me Janowski did not even try to bring the symphony to life, but - quite the opposite - dissected it into its component parts, leaving it like a laboratory rat pinned to a board, all internal organs exposed and labelled.  And quite, quite dead.  What we got was the corpse of Bruckner's 5th Symphony.

I was not the only one to think this, but we were in the minority, so when it was released on disc I bought it nonetheless - and others in the cycle - in case there was something there that I had simply failed to grasp, which over time might seep through the concrete.  And I'm sorry to say that on the few occasions when I've delved into it since, nothing has ignited.  I still find it pretty lifeless.

There are so many great Bruckner cycles out there - and to be fair, this is not the worst I've heard - but I just can't muster any enthusiasm for it.  YMMV of course.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 16, 2024, 12:26:38 PM
Wow!

Don't discuss completing the Finale of the Ninth Symphony with musicologists who have attempted to complete it!

"LIES!"  "DISTORTIONS!"  "INCOMPETENT ANALYSIS!"   "HE'S MAKING THINGS UP!"

From another website about Bruckner where this is happening: I dared to wonder about the latest revised completion by Professor John Phillips, who has stated that the Finale was complete in a short score, whose last few pages were lost/stolen at the time after Bruckner's death, and that some of those were recovered in the early 1990's.

By William Carragan, who did a completion in the 1980's:

Quote

William Carragan
:

"Sébastien Letocart has disposed of Phillips's work in a recent Bruckner Journal article. I examined Letocart's paper before he published it, and much of what he pointed out I already knew. Phillips's work is in many ways not reliable, and I am sorry anyone has fallen for it."




In other words, Phillips is a charlatan and/or incompetent and/or a liar!   :o


It is hard to believe that so many people could look at the same pages and say "60% complete" (Letocart) while others say "essentially complete"  (Phillips).



Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 16, 2024, 12:39:38 PM
On a more positive note: the recording of the year for 2023 (according to the Bruckner Society of America)  was the Bruckner Symphony #1 recorded by Remy Ballot with the Altomonte Orchestra of Saint Florian.


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51Iv5xeo7VL._SR600%2C315_PIWhiteStrip%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C35_PIStarRatingFOURANDHALF%2CBottomLeft%2C360%2C-6_SR600%2C315_SCLZZZZZZZ_FMpng_BG255%2C255%2C255.jpg)



https://www.brucknersocietyamerica.org/news-pages/roty-award (https://www.brucknersocietyamerica.org/news-pages/roty-award)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ultralinear on February 16, 2024, 12:51:57 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 16, 2024, 12:26:38 PMDon't discuss completing the Finale of the Ninth Symphony with musicologists who have attempted to complete it!

This may amuse you.  Many years ago I wrote - under an obvious pseudonym - a review of a performance of a Bruckner symphony, which I somewhat deprecated for what I saw as wilful departures from the tempo and expression markings in the familiar Nowak edition.  The editor of the publication in which that review appeared then contacted me to say that he'd had an irate email from a well-known Bruckner musicologist, who apparently had prepared his own edition of the musical text for that very performance, and who had seen in my critical review the hand of his arch-rival amongst Bruckner musicologists, determined to undermine him.  Apparently he was demanding evidence of the real name behind the pseudonym, and when my editor - a congenial fellow who was perturbed and amused in about equal amounts - tried to assure him that even if he did reveal the name it would mean nothing to him, as the author was (correctly) a mere nobody - that only seemed to inflame him even more, indicating an even wider conspiracy.

Murky waters, this Bruckner scholarship. ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Daverz on February 16, 2024, 01:35:03 PM
I've only heard the completion of the 9th once (Wildner), but the material itself is such obvious crap that I refuse to bother with it ever again.  Sad that scholars keep wasting their time with it.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 16, 2024, 01:39:41 PM
Quote from: ultralinear on February 16, 2024, 12:51:57 PMThis may amuse you.  Many years ago I wrote - under an obvious pseudonym - a review of a performance of a Bruckner symphony, which I somewhat deprecated for what I saw as wilful departures from the tempo and expression markings in the familiar Nowak edition.  The editor of the publication in which that review appeared then contacted me to say that he'd had an irate email from a well-known Bruckner musicologist, who apparently had prepared his own edition of the musical text for that very performance, and who had seen in my critical review the hand of his arch-rival amongst Bruckner musicologists, determined to undermine him.  Apparently he was demanding evidence of the real name behind the pseudonym, and when my editor - a congenial fellow who was perturbed and amused in about equal amounts - tried to assure him that even if he did reveal the name it would mean nothing to him, as the author was (correctly) a mere nobody - that only seemed to inflame him even more, indicating an even wider conspiracy.


Murky waters, this Bruckner scholarship. ;D



Great story!  Many thanks for sharing it! 


Yes, musicologists - at least, or especially - the Bruckner specialists - are apparently a VERY "touchy" group!


And Bruckner specialists, who have attempted a completion of the Ninth's Finale, are the touchiest apparently! 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 16, 2024, 04:05:43 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 16, 2024, 12:26:38 PMWow!

Don't discuss completing the Finale of the Ninth Symphony with musicologists who have attempted to complete it!

"LIES!"  "DISTORTIONS!"  "INCOMPETENT ANALYSIS!"   "HE'S MAKING THINGS UP!"

From another website about Bruckner where this is happening: I dared to wonder about the latest revised completion by Professor John Phillips, who has stated that the Finale was complete in a short score, whose last few pages were lost/stolen at the time after Bruckner's death, and that some of those were recovered in the early 1990's.

By William Carragan, who did a completion in the 1980's:


In other words, Phillips is a charlatan and/or incompetent and/or a liar!   :o


It is hard to believe that so many people could look at the same pages and say "60% complete" (Letocart) while others say "essentially complete"  (Phillips).





I wrote an article once arguing that the SPCM version of the finale of the Ninth works. I explained the fact that the music is so disconcerting as owing to the fact that Bruckner, to the very end of his life, continued to develop his compositional innovations.

But I didn't expect to convince anyone of the 'Unfinished Masterpiece' mindset: the sort of people who prefer an unfinished Contrapunctus XIV to a reliably completed one.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on February 16, 2024, 05:19:06 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 16, 2024, 04:05:43 PMI wrote an article once arguing that the SPCM version of the finale of the Ninth works. I explained the fact that the music is so disconcerting as owing to the fact that Bruckner, to the very end of his life, continued to develop his compositional innovations.

But I didn't expect to convince anyone of the 'Unfinished Masterpiece' mindset: the sort of people who prefer an unfinished Contrapunctus XIV to a reliably completed one.

In 2012 at Carnegie, Rattle and the Berlin PO played this completion, and I was convinced by what I'd heard, though I haven't heard it since, either live or recorded. (Apologies if I missed points made in earlier discussion.)

Frankly, I can live with either. A well-considered completion, as this one seemed at the time, is fine, as is the existing torso.

-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 16, 2024, 06:21:16 PM
The Ninth Symphony Finale Debate goes on!


Here is a recent comment from YouTube by Professor John Phillips, recently maligned by Sebastien Letocart: he begins by addressing the question of how much of the Finale is extant, as claims ranged from 60% to "essentially complete in short score."


Quote

For a start, the percentage calculation, which goes back to the work of my late colleague Ben Cohrs, is obviously based on how long one thinks the whole score is. So I don't know what - for Letocart - that figure might be based on. I'll do my best to give you a more complete picture of everything involved here – sorry for writing at such length.


Let me just say there's far more scholarship involved here than people like Letocart want to think; his idea is that you can do what you like with the material, not do the painstaking, real work required to reconstruct Bruckner's intentions from evidence. That's for a start unethical, perhaps rather egotistical, since it aggrandizes someone else's creative property, and most of all, insulting to the years of work spent by actual musicologists trying every way possible to get back to Bruckner's intentions, especially a team that has been involved with the score for as many decades as we have.


Like so often today, mis- and disinformation are paraded as the equal to real knowledge. When people don't know any better, they buy into it. The "SPCM Finale", since it was begun by my colleagues Nicola Samale and Giuseppe Mazzuca in 1985, has had over 80 performances world-wide by orchestras as prestigious as the RSO or LPO, and been recorded and even toured by the Berlin Philharmonic under Sir Simon Rattle.

My score of the Documentation of the Fragments was premiered by Nikolaus Harnoncourt in 1999 and recorded by him with the Vienna PO. My latest revision of 2022 has been enthusiastically greeted by conductors as distinguished as Robin Ticciati, Eliahu Inbal and Riccardo Chailly.


Letocart's score? A colleague once told me scathingly his score only sounds convincing when he's quoting other people's. So I wouldn't give him a lot of credence.


These are the facts: Bruckner began conceiving the Finale not in April 1895 when he started compositional work (the Adagio score was completed in April 1894). He began conceiving it back in 1887 along with the rest of the symphony. By April 1895 ideas like the tritone sequences of the opening, the principal and second theme and the idea of incorporating fugue and chorale, even the chorale melody itself all appear fully formed.


His late motet "Vexilla Regis" inhabits the same harmonic world as the Finale chorale; it was composed in 1892. In the 18 months Bruckner had left, he amassed what must have been well over 500 pages of drafts for the Finale, working incredibly thoroughly and methodically. With everything we know about his music-theoretical concepts, which underlay his compositional techniques, and the evidence of all his foregoing symphonic output, we can chronologically order this enormous amount of material, retrace his steps through the compositional process, and make credible informed hypotheses about the content of the missing bifolios based on the surviving materials.


Bruckner notated the score on numbered bifiolios pre-ruled by his secretary into 16 bars each. So from that 60/68 per cent – whatever – of the orchestral score you can re-establish with great credibility closer to 90 percent directly from Bruckner's sketches. Where Bruckner didn't have to use sketches to get his ideas right, it is most likely that the continuity was already clear to him already, and in such cases, we can probably retrace his thinking.


So the rest of the score requires no independent ideas, just understanding what he was doing, and I doubt that the structure of the completed movement is in doubt at no point. It isn't impossible that sketches, or even some of the missing bifiolios may yet turn up; last year a missing compositional sketch for the Scherzo was sold at auction. He reached the composition of the fugue by December 1895; By May 1896 he had sketched the coda, still six months before his death, and there are even newspaper reports from mid 1896 stating that he had drafted the entire movement, just no longer hoped to complete its instrumentation.


The exposition was originally completed in full score (a cover bifolio survives that enclosed the first 12 bifolios), the rest was probably left with the strings definitively scored in ink and significant wind entries in pencil. The coda sketches of May 1896 (which I discovered in the Austrian National Library in 1990), contain a reference to a "bifolio 36" (precisely the bifolio on which that sketch – now – begins).


My reconstruction of the autograph score as it appeared by the time of his death was published in the authoritative Bruckner Complete Edition in the 90s Musikwissenschaftlicher Verlag, Vienna, 1994, 1996). Up until that time no one understood the extent of the MSS and that the score bifolios represent a definitive autograph, not a draft. That led to the first ever performance of the Finale materials in Vienna, in 1999, by Harnoncourt.


If you want to know more, both my late colleague Ben Cohrs and I wrote doctoral dissertations on the Ninth and its Finale; mine (2001) is available on line: https://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/handle/2440/21827  (https://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/handle/2440/21827)


Concerning the 2022 revision of the SPCM score, last published by us in 2012, see also my:

https://www.brucknerjournal.com/resources/phillips-b9-finale/index  (https://www.brucknerjournal.com/resources/phillips-b9-finale/index)


Next performance of my revision is in June (Tokyo Metropolitan SO under Eliahu Inbal).




Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 16, 2024, 08:45:53 PM
Of course, I didn't touch on the other problem with acceptance of a reconstructed Ninth finale: professional jealousies between originators of rival reconstructions!
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Maestro267 on February 16, 2024, 11:09:26 PM
It's already complete in three movements.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ultralinear on February 17, 2024, 01:57:31 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 16, 2024, 04:05:43 PMI wrote an article once arguing that the SPCM version of the finale of the Ninth works. I explained the fact that the music is so disconcerting as owing to the fact that Bruckner, to the very end of his life, continued to develop his compositional innovations.

This about describes my view also FWIW.

I was at the concert where Robin Ticciati conducted an LPO B-team in the latest completion.  I am not sufficiently expert to pass judgement on the differences between that version and the one Rattle recorded in 2012, which in any case seemed to be largely swallowed up in differences of interpretation and standards of playing.  But what did come across quite clearly was the need for a successful performance of a 4-movement 9th - which this was, within its terms - to rebalance the work as a whole, which means lifting some of the weight usually placed on the Adagio and shifting it towards the end.  If you don't do that, then you get a 3+1 performance in which the Finale can seem like an unnecessary and unsatisfactory addendum to a work that is already complete.

Quote from: John PhillipsNext performance of my revision is in June (Tokyo Metropolitan SO under Eliahu Inbal).

Very much hoping that gets released on disc.  I like Inbal's Tokyo recording of the 1887 8th the best of those I've heard, and it was a huge disappointment to me that he didn't release a recording with them of the 1874 4th, choosing instead the standard revision.  It was hearing Inbal conduct the Wiener Symphoniker in that first version which completely changed my mind about it.  If anyone can make a success of the completed 9th, it should be him.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on February 17, 2024, 04:07:51 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on February 16, 2024, 11:09:26 PMIt's already complete in three movements.

Von Karajan, Bernstein and Haitink would agree, and so do I.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 17, 2024, 04:27:52 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on February 17, 2024, 01:57:31 AMThis about describes my view also FWIW.

I was at the concert where Robin Ticciati conducted an LPO B-team in the latest completion.  I am not sufficiently expert to pass judgement on the differences between that version and the one Rattle recorded in 2012, which in any case seemed to be largely swallowed up in differences of interpretation and standards of playing.  But what did come across quite clearly was the need for a successful performance of a 4-movement 9th - which this was, within its terms - to rebalance the work as a whole, which means lifting some of the weight usually placed on the Adagio and shifting it towards the end. If you don't do that, then you get a 3+1 performance in which the Finale can seem like an unnecessary and unsatisfactory addendum to a work that is already complete.

Very much hoping that gets released on disc.  I like Inbal's Tokyo recording of the 1887 8th the best of those I've heard, and it was a huge disappointment to me that he didn't release a recording with them of the 1874 4th, choosing instead the standard revision. It was hearing Inbal conduct the Wiener Symphoniker in that first version which completely changed my mind about it.  If anyone can make a success of the completed 9th, it should be him.



Yes, your 3 + 1 comment is right on target!

And I will search for that 1874 version of the Fourth with Inbal and the Wiener Symphoniker!

I saw Alfred Orel's 1930's edition of the Finale in the 1970's, and was very enthused by how much music - and the unusual nature of it - was available.

So I have been interested in this problem for a very long time!  The ultimate solution would be for someone to discover the few missing pages in an attic, but given the predations of World War II on Vienna, the odds of them having survived may be low.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: ultralinear on February 17, 2024, 05:36:49 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 17, 2024, 04:27:52 AMAnd I will search for that 1874 version of the Fourth with Inbal and the Wiener Symphoniker!

I'm not sure that recording exists. :(  TBH I don't remember exactly when it was - I would guess some time in the late 2000's - that I walked into the Wiener Konzerthaus with my mind firmly made up about the relative merits of the revised 4th over the original - only to emerge a couple of hours later, equally convinced of diametrically the opposite view.  In the interim I had witnessed an eloquent performance of the 1874 that worked, and worked well.  I would love there to have been a recording of it ... but I doubt there was.  Maybe some other performance though..?

It has occurred to me that there is a recording of a completed 9th which illustrates the point about the need to re-balance a 4-movement 9th:  Marcus Bosch with the Aachen SO.  Which normally I would hesitate to recommend, as it suffers from the same deficencies as in much of that cycle, notably inappropriate tempos for the echoey acoustic, and in places some remarkably sloppy timing.  The first 3 movements on their own would not make a very satisfactory performance, but what they do is lead up to a Finale which is the strongest part of the symphony, where it all does finally come together. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 17, 2024, 06:38:58 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 16, 2024, 10:31:35 AMLooking back. I purchased the recording of #8 when it was released but no longer have it. I guess. Didn't like it, although my taste has changed since then. I have grown to appreciate less histrionic Bruckner.

Found it on streaming and did a quick sample to refresh my memory. My impression is that it's not bad, but not remarkable in interpretation or audio quality. Not needed.

When I think about it, what I most value in Bruckner recordings is that the brass (primarily trumpets and trombones) are not too dominant, and that the French horns are well represented (interpretively and in terms of recording balance). I'd say the worst cycle I have ever heard is Barenboim/Chicago, and the second worst is Solti/Chicago. Haitink/RCO, Karajan/Various, Chailly/RCO and others are my references.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 17, 2024, 07:57:49 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 17, 2024, 06:38:58 AMFound it on streaming and did a quick sample to refresh my memory. My impression is that it's not bad, but not remarkable in interpretation or audio quality. Not needed.

When I think about it, what I most value in Bruckner recordings is that the brass (primarily trumpets and trombones) are not too dominant, and that the French horns are well represented (interpretively and in terms of recording balance). I'd say the worst cycle I have ever heard is Barenboim/Chicago, and the second worst is Solti/Chicago. Haitink/RCO, Karajan/Various, Chailly/RCO and others are my references.

I love that Barenboim/Chicago cycle - much prefer to either of his subsequent traversals.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 17, 2024, 08:11:11 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 17, 2024, 07:57:49 AMI love that Barenboim/Chicago cycle - much prefer to either of his subsequent traversals.

Love or hate, at least it is not indescript, like the Janowski seems to be. :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on February 17, 2024, 08:49:49 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 16, 2024, 09:25:10 AMalthough I had no idea the Pentagon had moved away from Military operations to CD releases.........

They decided to make love, not war! ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Iota on February 17, 2024, 11:39:56 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 17, 2024, 06:38:58 AMFound it [Bruckner 8, Janowski] on streaming and did a quick sample to refresh my memory. My impression is that it's not bad, but not remarkable in interpretation or audio quality. Not needed. ...

Perhaps not of interest to anybody but me really, but earlier on as a result of your and ultralinear's reservations about Janowski's Bruckner, I decided to give him a listen in the half-expectation/hope I might be able to quickly cross it off the very long list of cycles I've yet to explore (as I've concurred with both your opinions on a number of occasions in the past).
I chose the eighth as I was in the mood for it, and lo and behold I found myself enjoying it, actually rather a lot, so much so that I continued with all the first three movements, when I ran out of time (the last mvt will have to wait till tomorrow). I found in them a spaciousness and grandeur that not only seemed very apt, but illuminated the long term cohesion of each one so well, that I felt in that sense, it was as good as any I've heard.
I must admit recordings I'm keen on first time, sometimes fall victim to a sort of 'what was I thinking' reaction when I go back to them, but for now at least it gets a hearty thumbs up from me, and very glad to have stumbled across it, so thanks for the inadvertent prompt.  :)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 17, 2024, 12:54:03 PM
Quote from: Iota on February 17, 2024, 11:39:56 AMPerhaps not of interest to anybody but me really, but earlier on as a result of your and ultralinear's reservations about Janowski's Bruckner, I decided to give him a listen in the half-expectation/hope I might be able to quickly cross it off the very long list of cycles I've yet to explore (as I've concurred with both your opinions on a number of occasions in the past).
I chose the eighth as I was in the mood for it, and lo and behold I found myself enjoying it, actually rather a lot, so much so that I continued with all the first three movements, when I ran out of time (the last mvt will have to wait till tomorrow). I found in them a spaciousness and grandeur that not only seemed very apt, but illuminated the long term cohesion of each one so well, that I felt in that sense, it was as good as any I've heard.
I must admit recordings I'm keen on first time, sometimes fall victim to a sort of 'what was I thinking' reaction when I go back to them, but for now at least it gets a hearty thumbs up from me, and very glad to have stumbled across it, so thanks for the inadvertent prompt.  :)

I'm sure I would have enjoyed if I took the time to do more than sample a favorite passage. It is frustrating not to have the time to explore all of the music I'm interested in.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 17, 2024, 01:31:39 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 17, 2024, 12:54:03 PMI'm sure I would have enjoyed if I took the time to do more than sample a favorite passage. It is frustrating not to have the time to explore all of the music I'm interested in.




You are in a very large club with the rest of us!  😇
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on February 17, 2024, 03:05:46 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 17, 2024, 01:31:39 PMYou are in a very large club with the rest of us!  😇

Quite true, and it get's worse once you realize that there's even more music out there that you are unaware of, which you'd be interested in, and you'll never get to that either...  :-\
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on February 17, 2024, 03:25:20 PM
Quote from: LKB on February 17, 2024, 03:05:46 PMQuite true, and it gets worse once you realize that there's even more music out there that you are unaware of, which you'd be interested in, and you'll never get to that either...  :-\



😇 Amen! 😇
 

One of our members used to have a quotation by Rachmaninoff at the bottom of his comments:

"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for Music!" 😇
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Que on February 18, 2024, 12:45:59 AM
Apparently the BRSO had some more Haitink recordings on the shelves:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81AsQfMe6-L._AC_SX522_.jpg)

What's the word on this 7th?
Interestingly this is not late Haitink (appropriately reflected by the picture) - the recording is made up from two live recordings in 1981.

https://www.brso.de/en/cd-dvd/anton-bruckner-symphonie-nr-7-e-dur/
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on February 18, 2024, 02:40:57 AM
Quote from: Que on February 18, 2024, 12:45:59 AMApparently the BRSO had some more Haitink recordings on the shelves:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81AsQfMe6-L._AC_SX522_.jpg)

What's the word on this 7th?
Interestingly this is not late Haitink (appropriately reflected by the picture) - the recording is made up from two live recordings in 1981.

https://www.brso.de/en/cd-dvd/anton-bruckner-symphonie-nr-7-e-dur/

I'll attempt to search this out after lunch, if memory serves Haitink was strong in the Seventh.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on February 18, 2024, 06:47:05 AM
No luck thus far in locating that specific recording... 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Spotted Horses on February 18, 2024, 06:54:35 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 17, 2024, 01:31:39 PMYou are in a very large club with the rest of us!  😇

In my case the practical limit is about 15-30 minutes per day, depending on how far below five hours of sleep I am willing to go.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on February 18, 2024, 07:05:24 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on February 18, 2024, 06:54:35 AMIn my case the practical limit is about 15-30 minutes per day, depending on how far below five hours of sleep I am willing to go.

That's about what I spend, actually listening.

By engaging the stereo between my ears, hours of musical enjoyment are mine, every day.  ;)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on February 18, 2024, 08:53:51 AM
Quote from: Que on February 18, 2024, 12:45:59 AMWhat's the word on this 7th?
Interestingly this is not late Haitink (appropriately reflected by the picture) - the recording is made up from two live recordings in 1981.

Pretty good but the standouts for me on that label are still the 5th and 6th (which are also much later).  I still desire to listen to his studio efforts in Bruckner.

I always find it odd when the record label uses a picture of the conductor as an old man when the performance dates from when he was younger.  Classic example is Bernstein sony/columbia Mahler.  He was middle aged when he recorded that first cycle, but the picture of the cover is DG era Bernstein.

(https://i5.walmartimages.com/seo/Mahler-Bernstein-New-York-Philharmonic-Bernstein-Conducts-Mahler-CD_ea000bf8-710d-4d9a-a059-15109df627f4.991c4de6f854ad134cab3303b297f3e1.jpeg?odnHeight=768&odnWidth=768&odnBg=FFFFFF)
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on February 18, 2024, 08:55:16 AM
Quote from: LKB on February 18, 2024, 06:47:05 AMNo luck thus far in locating that specific recording...

You don't stream?
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on February 18, 2024, 08:59:20 AM
Quote from: LKB on February 18, 2024, 07:05:24 AMThat's about what I spend, actually listening.

By engaging the stereo between my ears, hours of musical enjoyment are mine, every day.  ;)

I like to spend an hour in the morning just listening on my stereo while I have my morning coffee and breakfast.  Anywhere from 1-3 times a week I will also dedicate time in the evening to just listening.

My time at work I'm not counting because I really have it on while I do grading or prep work.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Vexilla Regis for Lent
Post by: Cato on February 18, 2024, 02:17:46 PM
For Lent: Bruckner's motet Vexilla Regis




Text by Venantius Fortunatus :

VEXILLA Regis prodeunt;
fulget Crucis mysterium,
qua vita mortem pertulit,
et morte vitam protulit.

(The banners of the King fly,
now shines the Cross's mystery:
upon it Life did death endure,
and yet by death is Life secure.)

O Crux ave, spes unica,
hoc Passionis tempore!
piis adauge gratiam,
reisque dele crimina.

(Hail Cross, of hopes the most sublime!
Now, in the mournful Passion time;
grant to the just increase of grace,
and every sinner's crimes erase. )

Te, fons salutis Trinitas,
collaudet omnis spiritus:
quibus Crucis victoriam
largiris, adde praemium.


(Blest Trinity, salvation's spring
may every soul Thy praises sing;
to those Thou grantest conquest by
the Holy Cross, rewards supply. Amen. )
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: brewski on February 20, 2024, 11:18:22 AM
On Friday, March 1 at 2:00 pm (EST), Manfred Honeck and the NDR Elbphilharmonie Orchester will livestream Bruckner's Ninth. I have loved Honeck's Bruckner recordings with the Pittsburgh Symphony, and the Elbphilharmonie hall in Hamburg is just gorgeous.


-Bruce
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Cato on March 01, 2024, 09:15:40 AM
Professor John Phillips of the quartet of musicologists, who worked on the reconstruction of the Ninth Symphony's Finale with the aid of a few new discoveries, has recently done his own revision of their work.


It has been performed by a student/professor orchestra in Germany, and is set to be performed by professional orchestras this year, one of them being in Tokyo with Eliahu Inbal conducting, who obviously thinks the revision is worthy of his time!


On YouTube, Professor Phillips offered a digital version of the score to anyone interested.


I have always been interested in this: I had a friend in the 1970's who was able to photocopy Alfred Orel's compilation of the surviving sketches (known at the time, i.e. 1934) for me.  8)



So, I sent a note to Professor Phillips and - to prove that I had some musical competence and that I was not wasting his time - included a copy of the manuscript of my cantata for 9 voices Exaudi me.


Here is part of his reply:

Quote
"I finally am able to send you a copy of the revised score (with latest revisions for Tokyo)...

I'd very much value your insights, especially considering the very interesting choral work you were kind enough to send me - Wow!"






I was more than astonished by the last comments!  :o    8)



I truly expected my cantata to be ignored or just given a simple thank-you!


I doubt that I will have any "insights," but will do my best to peruse the score carefully.  😇




Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 01, 2024, 12:12:13 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 01, 2024, 09:15:40 AMProfessor John Phillips of the quartet of musicologists, who worked on the reconstruction of the Ninth Symphony's Finale with the aid of a few new discoveries, has recently done his own revision of their work.


It has been performed by a student/professor orchestra in Germany, and is set to be performed by professional orchestras this year, one of them being in Tokyo with Eliahu Inbal conducting, who obviously thinks the revision is worthy of his time!





I had no idea Inbal was still alive!  ;D
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: LKB on March 02, 2024, 07:37:15 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 18, 2024, 08:55:16 AMYou don't stream?

Nope. I've yet to encounter any type of online file delivery which offers comparable sound quality to physical media. I only pay for CDs or SACDs, and then rip them to lossless files.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: DavidW on March 02, 2024, 08:57:59 AM
Quote from: LKB on March 02, 2024, 07:37:15 AMNope. I've yet to encounter any type of online file delivery which offers comparable sound quality to physical media. I only pay for CDs or SACDs, and then rip them to lossless files.

Ah you do it just like Mirror Image!  Rip and listen.  I also saw some posters on either Steve Hoffman forum or Reddit say that they were burned too often by different masters or sneaky mp3s re-encoded as flac to buy digital downloads.  They only have confidence in ripping the cds themselves.
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: lordlance on March 06, 2024, 01:50:41 PM
Quote from: LKB on March 02, 2024, 07:37:15 AMNope. I've yet to encounter any type of online file delivery which offers comparable sound quality to physical media. I only pay for CDs or SACDs, and then rip them to lossless files.
TIDAL? Apple Lossless? Deezer has lossless too. 
Title: Re: Bruckner's Abbey
Post by: Atriod on March 06, 2024, 03:22:36 PM
Quote from: DavidW on March 02, 2024, 08:57:59 AMAh you do it just like Mirror Image!  Rip and listen.  I also saw some posters on either Steve Hoffman forum or Reddit say that they were burned too often by different masters or sneaky mp3s re-encoded as flac to buy digital downloads.  They only have confidence in ripping the cds themselves.

I have an extremely easy time hearing the Tidal watermark which others on an audiophile board said they couldn't hear.

https://www.mattmontag.com/music/universals-audible-watermark
https://www.mattmontag.com/music/an-update-on-umg-watermarks

Was just reading a thread on TalkClassical where people were praising the sound of Ebene Quartet's dynamically compressed Beethoven cycle on CD. It takes all kinds.