Here's a challenge for all Nielsen-lovers.
Which recording do you consider contains the best side-drum solo and cadenza in the first mvmt of Nielsen's 5th symphony ?
NOTE : I'm not asking which is the best overall performance .... just the side-drum battle in the first mvmt.
My favourite to date is in the Horenstein ex-Unicorn recording. I can even remember the name of the drummer .... Alfred Dukes ! He really gives it everything in the cadenza, and is more memorable than the drummer in either the Bernstein or the Ole Schmidt versions (good as they are for the rest of the symphony).
Not much of an subject for a thread since you have given the correct answer in your initial post, and BTW I agree.
The question is: is that Horenstein recording available anywhere these days? Everyone speaks of it in such terms of wonder that I would love to hear it.
I have it on LP and I'm not quite sure how good it is, but that sidedrum sure takes a beating.
The Horenstein (on LP) was my introduction to the piece, and even though I hadn't heard any other versions, it seemed like the drummer was really going wild.
The one I've heard most often since is Blomstedt's, and although I like it a lot, I don't recall the drum solo being quite as "out there" as the one on Horenstein's recording.
--Bruce
I tried to track down a CD of the Horenstein New Philharmonia 5th Symphony. There seems to be a version on "BBC Legends" which is coupled with Mahler's 6th and a Rossini overture. It's available on Amazon. Can anyone confirm that this is the classic version that corresponds to the original Unicorn vinyl release (also contain Saga Drom)?
Apart from the snare drum in the 1st movement, there is an amazing part for the trumpet at the end of the second movement. As the symphony moves towards its apotheosis, following a stormy passage for the cellos and basses, there is a solo trumpet that oscillates between the same two notes for bar after bar after bar after bar, before being joined by the other brass in a final fanfare. The best version to hear this is Ole Schmidt's and in some other versions it does not come through very well. I first saw this at a concert (Ole Schmidt conducting!) and the poor trumpeter was going redder and redder, but he did a great job.
Quote from: alkan on October 14, 2009, 06:17:19 AM
I tried to track down a CD of the Horenstein New Philharmonia 5th Symphony. There seems to be a version on "BBC Legends" which is coupled with Mahler's 6th and a Rossini overture. It's available on Amazon. Can anyone confirm that this is the classic version that corresponds to the original Unicorn vinyl release (also contain Saga Drom)?
It isn't; it's a live recording from two years later. :(
I have many versions of Nielsen's 5th. Also for me the manic side-drummer in Horenstein's Unicorn CD (not the one on BBC Legends) is the best of all. The recording of the drummer is quite close up in the Unicorn, which adds to the impact.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 18, 2009, 01:21:21 AM
I have many versions of Nielsen's 5th. Also for me the manic side-drummer in Horenstein's Unicorn CD (not the one on BBC Legends) is the best of all. The recording of the drummer is quite close up in the Unicorn, which adds to the impact.
It's not a very balanced recording, and I don't think I in general like it very much (haven't heard it in a long time though) - but the sidedrummer is the Keith Moon (or should that be John Bonham?) of recordings of this work.
Quote from: erato on October 18, 2009, 01:38:20 AM
It's not a very balanced recording, and I don't think I in general like it very much (haven't heard it in a long time though) - but the sidedrummer is the Keith Moon (or should that be John Bonham?) of recordings of this work.
Mike Shrieve I think :)
I have what is probably the same Horenstein/New Philharmonia recording on a Nonesuch LP '70s reissue. Yeah, Mr. Dukes gives it all he's got! And Horenstein is one of my favorite unknown conductors. My copy also gives solo credits to clarinetist John McCaw, probably for some spectacular runs in the Presto. :D If only the recorded sound was better! :-\
Thanks to everyone for their replies. It seems that from the snare-drum point of view, Horenstein has never been bettered.
I'd like to throw out a personal comment to see what others think.
I've always felt a little frustrated by the way that Neilsen wrote the snare-drum part at the climax. I have always felt that he stopped the free cadenza too soon. As the huge theme rises up, the snare-drum subsides into a simple roll, a little too meekly for my taste. I would really love it to be continue fanatically a few moments more so as to be eventually swallowed up, going down with all guns blazing, still fighting like crazy. After all that has gone before, the side-drum almost seems to give up and shut up, rather than continue to total annihilation ...
Well, if I had the skill to play the side-drum, and the opportunity to perform in Neilsen's 5th, I would ignore the score and keep on going until the conductor shoots me !
Quote from: alkan on October 21, 2009, 02:25:28 AM
...I've always felt a little frustrated by the way that Neilsen wrote the snare-drum part at the climax. I have always felt that he stopped the free cadenza too soon. As the huge theme rises up, the snare-drum subsides into a simple roll, a little too meekly for my taste. I would really love it to be continue fanatically a few moments more so as to be eventually swallowed up, going down with all guns blazing, still fighting like crazy. After all that has gone before, the side-drum almost seems to give up and shut up, rather than continue to total annihilation ...
Well, if I had the skill to play the side-drum, and the opportunity to perform in Neilsen's 5th, I would ignore the score and keep on going until the conductor shoots me !
I've only had one glimpse at the score, but if I recall correctly, Nielsen instructs the drummer to ignore what the conductor is doing and play at his own tempo. 8) He probably got the idea from Mahler. ;D
Or from Thoreau.
Jochanaan, my understanding is that during the cadenza at the climax of the first movement, the drummer is given complete freedom to improvise "so as to stop the flow of the music" (or something similar). It's an entirely destructive role and an incredible idea.
But, IMHO, Neilsen brings the cadenza to a close (with a drumroll) a little too soon. However, considering that the sidedrum returns (in the distance) during the post-apocalyptic coda, I guess that it's logical that it was not annihilated in the earlier climax.
The 5th is an amazing symphony, and is one of those works that gains tremendously by experiencing it in a live concert. It's a pity that it is not played so often .....
Quote from: jochanaan on October 22, 2009, 07:47:50 AM
I've only had one glimpse at the score, but if I recall correctly, Nielsen instructs the drummer to ignore what the conductor is doing and play at his own tempo. 8) He probably got the idea from Mahler. ;D
Where did you see that from Mahler? That would be completely uncharacteristic of Mahler, who usually micromanages every bar of his music. The only place I can think of is in the first movment of the third symphony where the piccolo interjections have the marking "without regards to tempo".
My brother saw the snare drum player burst into tears for being unable to stop the rest of the orchestra playing (Cambridge University Orchestra) many years ago.
Another manic snare-drummer is Tom Nybe on the recording with Michael Schonwandt with the Danish NRSO on dacapo (I think that this has just been issued on Naxos).
ps (added later) - here it is:
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 23, 2009, 06:25:00 AM
Where did you see that from Mahler? That would be completely uncharacteristic of Mahler, who usually micromanages every bar of his music. The only place I can think of is in the first movment of the third symphony where the piccolo interjections have the marking "without regards to tempo".
Once in the First the clarinet finishes its cuckoo calls in the tempo it was playing in (faster) while the cellos and basses change to a slow tempo. In the Fourth's opening, the sleigh-bell player is directed to keep the tempo moderately fast while the rest of the orchestra slows down. And in the Seventh's first movement and a couple of times in the Eighth, he gives the violin section an accelerando and fermata while the rest of the orchestra plays in tempo. Yes, Mahler micromanages every bar--and every player's part. ;D (But few conductors are courageous enough to have the orchestra play those passages as directed, preferring to "play it safe" and keep the vertical alignment. :-\)
Quote from: vandermolen on October 23, 2009, 07:46:09 AM
My brother saw the snare drum player burst into tears for being unable to stop the rest of the orchestra playing (Cambridge University Orchestra) many years ago.
Another manic snare-drummer is Tom Nybe on the recording with Michael Schonwandt with the Danish NRSO on dacapo (I think that this has just been issued on Naxos).
ps (added later) - here it is:
I do like the Schønwandt cycle a lot and has added it to the Blomstedt/SFOcycle as my complete cycle mainstays on CD. I have lots of single discs though, mostly on LP, Bernstein, Horenstein, Schmidt...., but the CDs are whats usually played (call me lazy).
Quote from: vandermolen on October 23, 2009, 07:46:09 AM
Another manic snare-drummer is Tom Nybe on the recording with Michael Schonwandt with the Danish NRSO on dacapo (I think that this has just been issued on Naxos).
Ah, thanks Vandermolar ..... this sounds like exactly what I am looking for whilst I await a reissue of the Horenstein version.
The Cambridge concert sounds great .... additional drama in the first movement as the drummer breaks down and throws his sticks away :o
Quote from: alkan on October 26, 2009, 02:42:07 AM
Ah, thanks Vandermolar ..... this sounds like exactly what I am looking for whilst I await a reissue of the Horenstein version.
One can always hope I guess, but this doesn't seem to be the kind of stuff that's high on the reissues ladder. Whio owms this catalogu now? Am I right in seeming to remember that it once was on the Unicorn-Kanchana label?
Quote from: jochanaan on October 23, 2009, 06:19:27 PM
In the Fourth's opening, the sleigh-bell player is directed to keep the tempo moderately fast while the rest of the orchestra slows down. And in the Seventh's first movement and a couple of times in the Eighth, he gives the violin section an accelerando and fermata while the rest of the orchestra plays in tempo.
I checked the score of the 4th, I cannot find the part you are referring to. There is a mild slowdown when the violins first enter while the ostinato in the flute and sleigh bell is in tempo. Maybe this is what you are referring to.
I can't find the score of the 1st, 2nd or 7th right now but I think I know what you are referring to. But if I remember correctly Mahler gave very detailed instructions as to the different tempi he wants from the different sections, not just "ignore the conductor and do whatever you want".
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 26, 2009, 06:07:43 AM
I checked the score of the 4th, I cannot find the part you are referring to. There is a mild slowdown when the violins first enter while the ostinato in the flute and sleigh bell is in tempo. Maybe this is what you are referring to.
No, it's right at the beginning.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 26, 2009, 06:07:43 AM
I can't find the score of the 1st, 2nd or 7th right now but I think I know what you are referring to. But if I remember correctly Mahler gave very detailed instructions as to the different tempi he wants from the different sections, not just "ignore the conductor and do whatever you want".
He did. But with some of those sections, it's almost impossible to conduct everything. (I know; I've tried. :o) You have to rely on the first-chair players to lead, at least a little.
Quote from: erato on October 26, 2009, 04:28:36 AM
One can always hope I guess, but this doesn't seem to be the kind of stuff that's high on the reissues ladder. Whio owms this catalogu now? Am I right in seeming to remember that it once was on the Unicorn-Kanchana label?
Regis/Alto have issued some old Unicorn recordings. I approached them recommending the Horenstein Nielsen's 5th as a candidate for reissue, but the problem is that they have already issued the complete Ole Schmidt Nielsen cycle (previously Unicorn) in their current catalogue. Still, I shall keep pestering them.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 27, 2009, 01:24:20 AM
Regis/Alto have issued some old Unicorn recordings. I approached them recommending the Horenstein Nielsen's 5th as a candidate for reissue, but the problem is that they have already issued the complete Ole Schmitt Nielsen cycle (previously Unicorn) in their current catalogue. Still, I shall keep pestering them.
I was aware of that, eg the VERY FINE cycle of Maconchy string quartets. But again, as you say, the Nielsen stakes are somewhat higher.
Quote from: erato on October 27, 2009, 03:30:22 AM
I was aware of that, eg the VERY FINE cycle of Maconchy string quartets. But again, as you say, the Nielsen stakes are somewhat higher.
Yes, that's true. I've also tried to get them to issue David Measham's recording of Goossens Symphony No 1 (better than Hickox or Handley IMHO) - but no luck there either.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 26, 2009, 06:07:43 AM
I checked the score of the 4th, I cannot find the part you are referring to. There is a mild slowdown when the violins first enter while the ostinato in the flute and sleigh bell is in tempo. Maybe this is what you are referring to.
No, Jo's quite right, and as he says, it's right at the beginning. It isn't very clear in the score - some instruments are given a rit whilst the sleigh bell is not, which might look like an oversight but isn't. It isn't often played this way, however. It is on Chailly's recording, and the liner notes give the whole story:
Quote from: Chailly liner notesThe tiny jingling ritornello with which the movement opens awakens memories of a nursery musical box, one that, in Mahler's own words, leaves us with the impression that it 'could not count to three'. He acheives this by keeping the flutes and bells in strict time, marking them ohne rit [actually, I can't see this in the score, which doesn't help make things clearer, but as the missing marking essentially means 'don't do anything different', the case is essentially unaltered] while the accompanying clarinets, as their figuration comes to an end, are marked poco rit. [that is in the score, and it is only in the clarinets, not the flute or bells - the violins, as they come in, have something else again!] The resulting 'confusion' - a typical Mahlerian innovation - sounds exactly as if the musical box has a mechanical fault or the child operating it hasn't got far with his numbers. It was only at the very end of his life that Mahler made his wishes clear about this passage and this performance incorporates his final intentions as documented by erwin stein
Re the point made earlier about Nielsen's drum solo finishing 'too early' with a couple of bars of simple roll - two convergent thoughts occur to me. One is that Nielsen imagined that a pure hard roll represented some kind of a maximum level of pure activity into which even the wildest drum solo could merge - IOW, that a roll
would be the logical climax of any solo, something with which any solo could merge. Two is that it's very possible that Nielsen, living in his pre bebop, pre Keith Moon, pre Jaki Leibezeit days ;D could not imagine quite how much disruptive power a good drum soloist could release, to the extent that his simple roll, rather than being climactic, might come as something of a let-down.