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The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: SymphonicAddict on August 17, 2018, 09:29:17 PM

Title: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: SymphonicAddict on August 17, 2018, 09:29:17 PM
I don't know many recordings of this work, my favorite Mahler's symphony. So, I'd like to know what is the most cataclysmic performance of it, the wildest and compelling you know. Please, avoid both mono/old and live recordings. I'd really appreciate your suggestions.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Daverz on August 17, 2018, 09:43:27 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on August 17, 2018, 09:29:17 PM
I don't know many recordings of this work, my favorite Mahler's symphony. So, I'd like to know what is the most cataclysmic performance of it, the wildest and compelling you know. Please, avoid both mono/old and live recordings. I'd really appreciate your suggestions.

Well, darn, that eliminates Mitropoulos.

[asin] B00006J3L9[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Biffo on August 18, 2018, 01:15:25 AM
Quote from: Daverz on August 17, 2018, 09:43:27 PM
Well, darn, that eliminates Mitropoulos.

[asin] B00006J3L9[/asin]

Second that, you've eliminated the best ever. That leaves my long time favourite, Kubelik/Bavarian Radio SO (DG).
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: aligreto on August 18, 2018, 01:48:52 AM
The old reliables of Bernstein, Kubelik and Solti offer powerful versions if you do not know them but I cannot remember whether or not they are live performances.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Draško on August 18, 2018, 02:48:37 AM
The softest and gentlest is Abbado with Berlin Philharmonic on DG, and I like it.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: amw on August 18, 2018, 03:33:41 AM
Hard to go wrong with Kubelík (DG or Audite), Solti or Kondrashin (Melodiya). In general keep an eye out for recordings with timings under 22', 12'30" (Scherzo), 15' (Andante), 28' (Finale)—in particular I'm convinced that there is no speed too fast to be appropriate for the finale's Allegro energico sections.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: NikF on August 18, 2018, 03:45:04 AM
Quote from: amw on August 18, 2018, 03:33:41 AM
Hard to go wrong with Kubelík (DG or Audite), Solti or Kondrashin (Melodiya). In general keep an eye out for recordings with timings under 22', 12'30" (Scherzo), 15' (Andante), 28' (Finale)—in particular I'm convinced that there is no speed too fast to be appropriate for the finale's Allegro energico sections.

I never thought of it that way before. Good stuff.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: André on August 18, 2018, 04:38:52 AM
Two widely divergent recordings I cherish are Barbirolli (the EMI disc, not the various live ones) and the Szell on Sony. The most cataclysmic, at least in sonic terms, thanks to a stupendous recording, is Benjamin Zander's.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Biffo on August 18, 2018, 04:48:18 AM
Quote from: André on August 18, 2018, 04:38:52 AM
Two widely divergent recordings I cherish are Barbirolli (the EMI disc, not the various live ones) and the Szell on Sony. The most cataclysmic, at least in sonic terms, thanks to a stupendous recording, is Benjamin Zander's.

I would go for Barbirolli's live recording with the Philharmonia but that is a personal choice.The edition of the studio recording I have is split over two discs and has the order Scherzo-Andante so you can't reprogram it to Barbirolli's (and Mahler's) preferred order - if you want to. The Zander set is valuable because it has both versions of the Finale; it also has an extra disc with a discussion of the work by Zander. It is also a fine performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Mahlerian on August 18, 2018, 07:40:38 AM
I'm fond of these ones:
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Aug09/Mahler6_%20Tennstedt_lpo0038.jpg)

(https://i.qello.com/c/concerts/t/3x4/i/1_ryehxov2.jpg/width/448/quality/75)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81srY0%2BUI7L._SX355_.jpg)

My favorite symphony by anyone.  As Schoenberg said, it is a work in which every single detail has ramifications and nothing is superfluous.  I don't particularly like Bernstein's first recording (his DG is better, I think, though really strange), and the Mitropolous, while historically important as the first recording, is captured in mediocre mono sound and cuts the exposition repeat in the first movement, messing up the balance.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 18, 2018, 08:38:14 AM
The already mentioned Barbirolli is a great recording, but very unconventional - slow tempi, a feeling of dogged, unrelenting struggle. Also, no expo repeat in the first mvt.

I like the second Bernstein (VPO) - feels sort of expressionist (a lot like early Schoenberg et al.). Finale is slow but hugely dramatic. (I think it's "officially" live, but there is no audience noise or orchestral bloopers.) It's much better than his jackrabbit NYPO version, which sounds neurotic or hysteric rather than tragic.

If you want it fast but not hysterical, the Solti/CSO is good.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: SymphonicAddict on August 18, 2018, 05:56:51 PM
Many thanks for the replies. I'm gonna see what ones I can get. More suggestions are welcome.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: aukhawk on August 19, 2018, 01:42:00 AM
This symphony was the subject of an extended blind listening game a while back.  I link you here to the 'top 5' results (out of 32), three of which have already been mentioned - but if you like this symphony then the whole thread is well worth a read.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=20334.240 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=20334.240)   Just nobody mention Karajan or we'll never hear the last of it
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Daverz on August 19, 2018, 11:15:50 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on August 19, 2018, 01:42:00 AM
This symphony was the subject of an extended blind listening game a while back.  I link you here to the 'top 5' results (out of 32), three of which have already been mentioned - but if you like this symphony then the whole thread is well worth a read.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=20334.240 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=20334.240)   Just nobody mention Karajan or we'll never hear the last of it

I was quite pleased with the Pappano and thought of mentioning it as one of the better ones of recent years, but I don't remember enough to say whether it was "cataclysmic" enough for SymphonyAddict.  However, the Bernstein/VPO certainly fits that bill.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Mahlerian on August 19, 2018, 02:39:24 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on August 19, 2018, 01:42:00 AMJust nobody mention Karajan or we'll never hear the last of it

I only participated in that thread because other people asked me to.  For some reason people think I started it.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: geralmar on August 23, 2018, 10:51:32 AM
One mild caution about the Barbirolli/EMI recording is the conductor's audible contributions (heavy breathing, grunts) during the quieter passages.  Back in L.P. days I set up a faux quadraphonic speaker system that pulled the vocal effects into the rear speakers which produced the unnerving sense of having a dead man breathing behind me.  Maybe appropriate for the symphony... .
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Crudblud on September 04, 2018, 01:51:12 AM
I thought I'd posted in this thread already. Well, my favourite recording is the live Eschenbach/Cleveland Orchestra on Ondine.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: JBS on September 04, 2018, 08:33:56 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on September 04, 2018, 01:51:12 AM
I thought I'd posted in this thread already. Well, my favourite recording is the live Eschenbach/Cleveland Orchestra on Ondine.

You mean Philadelphia, don't you?
[asin]B000HRMEM8[/asin]
I agree that it is a great performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Crudblud on September 10, 2018, 07:19:04 AM
Quote from: JBS on September 04, 2018, 08:33:56 AM
You mean Philadelphia, don't you?
[asin]B000HRMEM8[/asin]
I agree that it is a great performance.
Oh, yes! For some reason I remembered Cleveland and didn't bother to check.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: alkan on September 11, 2018, 01:43:44 PM
Bernstein and the VPO is the most powerful version that I know, especially the finale.     I usually feel exhausted by the end, like I've been sledge-hammered into submission.     The first part of the finale is unbelievable ..... quite slow, but very tense and full of eerie, spine-tingling effects.       The rest is pure emotion, power and excitement.

Solti is also powerful, but his faster speeds make his version seem hysteric and a little artificial to me.   

Bernstein/VPO is the one to get, but consult your doctor and have a check-up before listening ....

Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 11, 2018, 02:02:31 PM
Quote from: alkan on September 11, 2018, 01:43:44 PM
Bernstein and the VPO is the most powerful version that I know[...]Solti is also powerful, but his faster speeds make his version seem hysteric and a little artificial to me.

Solti's hysterics might just be what the op is looking for. In any case, Bernstein (DG) and Solti are my recommendations. (I also love, for various reaons, Szell, Karajan and Chailly but I don't think those three conform to the op's requirements.)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on September 11, 2018, 02:36:12 PM
No one does hysterical like Solti. It was over the top for me, but very intense.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: alkan on September 12, 2018, 12:33:04 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 11, 2018, 02:02:31 PM
Solti's hysterics might just be what the op is looking for.
Sarge

With respect Sarge, I see it differently.

My take is that this is a heroic struggle against impossible odds ending in an inevitable defeat.       Hysterics are not really appropriate.       The struggle is brutal ..... it is pretty grim stuff, but the hero goes down fighting to the end.        For this, artificial excitement is not really appropriate .... slower intensity is much more powerful.

This is a work that really generates different emotions in each listener.       

Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 12, 2018, 12:58:28 PM
Quote from: alkan on September 12, 2018, 12:33:04 PMThe struggle is brutal ..... it is pretty grim stuff

In that case, maybe I should reconsider Chailly as a possible choice for the op: Chailly's is the grimmest M6 I've ever heard.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: relm1 on September 12, 2018, 04:31:58 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 12, 2018, 12:58:28 PM
In that case, maybe I should reconsider Chailly as a possible choice for the op: Chailly's is the grimmest M6 I've ever heard.

Sarge

Really?  I've always found Chailly to be refined not devastatingly grim. 
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: aukhawk on September 13, 2018, 04:39:39 AM
Quote from: alkan on September 12, 2018, 12:33:04 PM
This is a work that really generates different emotions in each listener.     

So it would seem.  It repels me.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: amw on September 13, 2018, 05:00:54 AM
Quote from: alkan on September 12, 2018, 12:33:04 PMFor this, artificial excitement is not really appropriate .... slower intensity is much more powerful.
iirc Mahler's own tempi as reported in New York Phil programmes are something like 22', 14', 10', 30' (andante-scherzo order) which are definitely on the fast side except for the finale. So he may have disagreed with you there.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Mahlerian on September 13, 2018, 05:11:15 AM
Quote from: amw on September 13, 2018, 05:00:54 AM
iirc Mahler's own tempi as reported in New York Phil programmes are something like 22', 14', 10', 30' (andante-scherzo order) which are definitely on the fast side except for the finale. So he may have disagreed with you there.

He never played the Sixth with the NYP.  He conducted the premiere, once more, and then once in Vienna and the reception every time was so awful that he permanently shelved the piece.  Maybe you're thinking of the Vienna Philharmonic?
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: amw on September 13, 2018, 05:20:36 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on September 13, 2018, 05:11:15 AM
He never played the Sixth with the NYP.  He conducted the premiere, once more, and then once in Vienna and the reception every time was so awful that he permanently shelved the piece.  Maybe you're thinking of the Vienna Philharmonic?
Yes, probably.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Biffo on September 13, 2018, 05:30:11 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on September 13, 2018, 05:11:15 AM
He never played the Sixth with the NYP.  He conducted the premiere, once more, and then once in Vienna and the reception every time was so awful that he permanently shelved the piece.  Maybe you're thinking of the Vienna Philharmonic?

The only timing I have for Mahler 6 conducted by the composer is 77 mins (no breakdown); this was for the Vienna performance with the Konzertverein Orchestra. After a disastrous performance of Symphony No 1 in November 1900 Mahler never conducted the Vienna Philharmonic in one of his works, in public, again. He resigned from the orchestra in April 1901. His farewell concert in 1907 was performance of the 'Resurrection Symphony but it was a farewell to the Opera and the orchestra was billed as that of the Court Opera.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Mahlerian on September 13, 2018, 06:04:24 AM
Quote from: Biffo on September 13, 2018, 05:30:11 AM
The only timing I have for Mahler 6 conducted by the composer is 77 mins (no breakdown); this was for the Vienna performance with the Konzertverein Orchestra. After a disastrous performance of Symphony No 1 in November 1900 Mahler never conducted the Vienna Philharmonic in one of his works, in public, again. He resigned from the orchestra in April 1901. His farewell concert in 1907 was performance of the 'Resurrection Symphony but it was a farewell to the Opera and the orchestra was billed as that of the Court Opera.

He was ousted as director of the Vienna Philharmonic, but I seem to remember that he still conducted the orchestra itself from time to time, and this was part of why he was forced out in the end.  It was seen as offensive that such music was played by the proud Vienna Phil.

You might be correct, though.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: knight66 on September 13, 2018, 06:08:13 AM
A left of field suggestion here. Mackerras with the BBC Phil. It was issued stuck to the BBC Music magazine. But there is usually a copy for sale.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symphony-Sir-Charles-Mackerras/dp/B0042OIOBC/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1536847323&sr=1-1&keywords=Mahler+6+mackerras


There is one substantial review there which may give some flavour of the interpretation. It has given me a lot of pleasure over the years. I have Bertini and Barbirolli amongst others and recommend both.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Biffo on September 13, 2018, 06:27:55 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on September 13, 2018, 06:04:24 AM
He was ousted as director of the Vienna Philharmonic, but I seem to remember that he still conducted the orchestra itself from time to time, and this was part of why he was forced out in the end.  It was seen as offensive that such music was played by the proud Vienna Phil.

You might be correct, though.

Mahler resigned as conductor, tactfully giving health reasons (partially true). He used the orchestra for private rehearsals of the 4th, 5th (twice) and 6th symphonies. The orchestra deliberately played the 4th as badly as possible leaving Mahler in a rage but they seem to have been better behaved for the 5th and 6th.

At the performance of the 1st Symphony the orchestra walked off leaving Mahler to face the booing. Mahler conducted one more Philharmonic concert, his beloved Bruckner's 5th Symphony and then resigned. He used members of the orchestra for his Lieder evenings with chamber orchestra but they were billed as members of the Court Opera orchestra.

After Mahler's death Bruno Walter conducted the second performance of Das Lied von der Erde and the premiere of the 9th Symphony with the Philharmonic then there was nothing for many years. Vienna heard a lot of Mahler but it was from the Konzertverein (later renamed the Vienna Symphony Orchestra) under Oskar Fried and Anton Webern. The performances Walter conducted with the Philharmonic in the late 30's of the 8th, 9th and Das Lied von der Erde were done for political reasons not any love for Mahler on the part of the Philharmonic.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: André on September 13, 2018, 09:34:02 AM
Quote from: Biffo on September 13, 2018, 06:27:55 AM
Mahler resigned as conductor, tactfully giving health reasons (partially true). He used the orchestra for private rehearsals of the 4th, 5th (twice) and 6th symphonies. The orchestra deliberately played the 4th as badly as possible leaving Mahler in a rage but they seem to have been better behaved for the 5th and 6th.

At the performance of the 1st Symphony the orchestra walked off leaving Mahler to face the booing. Mahler conducted one more Philharmonic concert, his beloved Bruckner's 5th Symphony and then resigned. He used members of the orchestra for his Lieder evenings with chamber orchestra but they were billed as members of the Court Opera orchestra.

After Mahler's death Bruno Walter conducted the second performance of Das Lied von der Erde and the premiere of the 9th Symphony with the Philharmonic then there was nothing for many years. Vienna heard a lot of Mahler but it was from the Konzertverein (later renamed the Vienna Symphony Orchestra) under Oskar Fried and Anton Webern. The performances Walter conducted with the Philharmonic in the late 30's of the 8th, 9th and Das Lied von der Erde were done for political reasons not any love for Mahler on the part of the Philharmonic.

Same with Bruckner. A disproportionately large number of Bruckner performances pre-1960 were made with the Symphony. The Philharmonic wouldn't touch it, unless Böhm or Furtwängler insisted. They were a very conservative outfit.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: George on September 13, 2018, 05:58:21 PM
After reading a glowing review of Abbado's 6th, I ran out and bought it. However, I found myself unmoved by his interpretation. A few weeks later, I bought a used copy of Barbirolli's studio 6th on EMI. After one listen to this emotional, powerful interpretation, I was completely sold on the work (and the conductor, who became one of my favorites.)
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on September 13, 2018, 08:32:05 PM
Quote from: George on September 13, 2018, 05:58:21 PM
After reading a glowing review of Abbado's 6th, I ran out and bought it. However, I found myself unmoved by his interpretation. A few weeks later, I bought a used copy of Barbirolli's studio 6th on EMI. After one listen to this emotional, powerful interpretation, I was completely sold on the work (and the conductor, who became one of my favorites.)

I will never understand how an Abbado recording ever gets a glowing review.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 14, 2018, 09:34:22 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on September 13, 2018, 08:32:05 PM
I will never understand how an Abbado recording ever gets a glowing review.
You mean because the recording is bad or because there is (was) a conspiracy against him?

I have a lot of Abbado recordings - how can you not as one is apt to trip over a few dozen almost by accident. In general I don't get what the fuss is. They are ok as there are truly few really bad recordings. But I can't say anything is a standout. I enjoy his Ravel set quite a bit. From what i gather musicians love working with him.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on September 14, 2018, 09:38:33 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 14, 2018, 09:34:22 AM
You mean because the recording is bad or because there is (was) a conspiracy against him?

Because I think he was an unremarkable conductor who did not produce memorable recordings.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: ritter on September 14, 2018, 09:43:39 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on September 14, 2018, 09:38:33 AM
Because I think he was an unremarkable conductor who did not produce memorable recordings.

But Abbado made what IMHO is one of the great Mahler recordings of all time:

[asin]B00000E2VF[/asin]

Just sayin'  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 14, 2018, 09:49:39 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on September 14, 2018, 09:38:33 AM
Because I think he was an unremarkable conductor who did not produce memorable recordings.

His recent live Mahler was quite good, performed consistently well. But I think his real strength was in opera. His Simon Boccanegra is as good as it gets. He's done some fabulous Rossini, Donizetti and Mozart. And his Mussorgsky Khovanshchina was the first good modern version available for this piece (and is still at the top of the heap). I could go on, but this is a Mahler thread. Having said all this, I do not like his studio versions (referring to Mahler again) - the live version on Blu-ray in the years before his death are much to be preferred.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on September 14, 2018, 09:53:49 AM
Quote from: ritter on September 14, 2018, 09:43:39 AM
But Abbado made what IMHO is one of the great Mahler recordings of all time:

[asin]B00000E2VF[/asin]

Just sayin'  ;)

I had that recording at one point. It is not a work that I really love. The one Abbado recording I have which I generally like is his Mahler 5 with the CSO. That was from 1975 or so. In my cynical mind, I think that in those days the orchestras more or less ignored him and played however they wanted. They were probably remembering how Solti told them to do it. It wasn't until later that Abbado really learned how to ruin things. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on September 14, 2018, 10:04:28 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 14, 2018, 09:49:39 AM
His recent live Mahler was quite good, performed consistently well. But I think his real strength was in opera. His Simon Boccanegra is as good as it gets. He's done some fabulous Rossini, Donizetti and Mozart. And his Mussorgsky Khovanshchina was the first good modern version available for this piece (and is still at the top of the heap). I could go on, but this is a Mahler thread. Having said all this, I do not like his studio versions (referring to Mahler again) - the live version on Blu-ray in the years before his death are much to be preferred.

Well, the BPO (among others) hired him, so clearly he was capable. But I have rarely heard a recording by him that resonated with me.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 14, 2018, 10:28:06 AM
i think that is the key: resonate is such a subjective term. I think his Mahler in general is a bit characterless as in it sounds just about like every other Mahler recording out there. I rather like his CSO Mahler 7th and his Viennese 3rd is also rather good.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: JBS on September 14, 2018, 01:24:31 PM
I find Abbado in Mahler to be sometimes excellent, sometimes horrible, sometimes just mainstream.
I think his Berlin 7th is the best performance of that symphony I have ever heard. But his M2 with Vienna ans again with Lucerne are the worst I have ever heard. His CSO M2 is good.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Josquin13 on September 14, 2018, 01:30:55 PM
Taking the old Mitropoulos NYP & F. Charles Adler Mahler 6s off the table (even though Adler was one of Mahler's proteges)--due to sound restrictions (as requested in the opening post), along with the 1991 Tennstedt 6th because it's live, I'd say the finest Mahler 6s I've heard over the decades have been the following 5 or 6 recordings (listed in no particular order)--all of which can be heard on You Tube:

1. Leonard Bernstein: New York Philharmonic--normally, it's a no brainer for me to favor Bernstein's Columbia/Sony recordings over his later DG recordings (esp. the ones he made in Vienna), and while I do prefer his early NYP Mahler 6th over the later Vienna 6th, it's not so clear cut this time, as both are very good.  Indeed, this is one instance where I could safely recommend either recording; although, if pressed, yes, I do find the NYP performance a bit more dynamic and brilliant (it begins at 2:04: 26 on the following You Tube clip): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok8wwvduSJo&frags=pl%2Cwn

2. Here's Bernstein's Vienna performance, so you can decide for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dex4aQGotps&frags=pl%2Cwn

3. I'd also strongly recommend Leif Segerstam's excellent Mahler 6th, which is one of the finest in the catalogue, IMO (& don't be deterred by the Danish orchestra--as they play remarkably well): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK1Nu5nkKfg&frags=pl%2Cwn.  (Segerstam's Mahler 5th & 9th are excellent too.)

4. Gunther Herbig is another fine, unsung Mahler conductor.  His 5th & 6th are well worth getting to know among his Mahler recordings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL3jY6g1Rf8&list=OLAK5uy_liVPxRzj-jr-lQu5qM5As3f-JSBEHpUP0

5. I'm also a great admirer of Rafael Kubelik, and his DG (& live Audite) Mahler 6th is very fine too (and more driven than the others); however, with that said, Kubelik's DG Mahler needs to be newly remastered, IMO, & it probably will be soon, as it's long overdo (so far, only Kubelik's DG 1st has been remastered since the earliest days of the CD).  Nevertheless, Kubelik's DG 6th sounds perfectly good on You Tube (it may be an LP?--as there was nothing wrong with the original sound of the LPs): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m8cs8umfkI&frags=pl%2Cwn

6. Jascha Horenstein's Stockholm 6th should be heard too (though it is live), as his view of this symphony differs from other conductors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRDZswVLeZA&frags=pl%2Cwn  (There's also a live Horenstein Mahler 6th that was recorded with the Bournemouth S.O., but the sound quality is more of a challenge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY3PX1lCx3U&frags=pl%2Cwn

Finally, I'm normally a fan of Sir John Barbirolli's Mahler (esp. the Mahler song cycles he recorded with Dame Janet Baker--which are desert island discs in my collection), but I don't think the 6th was one of Sir John's best Mahler symphonies.  For one, I find the way he makes the music almost stutter at the opening of the 1st movement a bit odd (as it's different from the way others conduct this movement):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCnZJaRtZSo&frags=pl%2Cwn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzjtaiExMwA&list=PL7BhxaEv8fJOKaopTTYmDlHwO8Q70WWqr

However, if you're looking to collect a variety of different interpretations of the 6th, then Barbirolli's studio (and live) recording does sense (& many listeners are devoted to his Mahler).

Among recordings I've not yet heard, but which are on my wish list, I'd most like to hear Riccardo Chailly's Leipzig Gewandhaus Mahler 6th (on DVD & Blu-ray).  Judging by what I've listened to so far from this cycle (a brilliant Leipzig 9th on You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfaY1wTAtyM&frags=pl%2Cwn), Chailly's Leipzig cycle may be even better than his earlier Concertgebouw cycle.  Indeed, the excerpt from the 6th here does sound better (& good enough to go onto my list of top favorites):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9MbS7Z1Z5o&frags=pl%2Cwn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nla-nDaWPuQ&frags=pl%2Cwn

P.S. To conclude, I'd be remiss not to add that Dmitri Mitropoulos's New York Philharmonic 6th is legendary & worth hearing, at least once in your life, even if the sound does put you off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HSvGX2lG94&frags=pl%2Cwn

My two cents.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: André on September 14, 2018, 03:18:58 PM
I really like these two:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51sHfqFjqLL.jpg)

It is grim and stark, hugely dramatic, with unusual tempo relationships, a bit like a Klemperer performance: energetic but measured in the outer movements, flowing in the middle ones. The RSO Leipzig has a very dark sound.

(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511RNF-zgpL._SS500.jpg)

Very expansive, very lyrical, a rich chocolate palette. The sound is gorgeous.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: amw on September 25, 2018, 05:47:43 AM
I was surprised to discover that Charles Mackerras & the BBC Philharmonic have a pretty good recording of this piece as well, though only released on a BBC Music Magazine CD. Not a conductor I would have ordinarily considered for this repertoire.

edit: and I see already mentioned in this thread, oops
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: relm1 on September 25, 2018, 06:30:28 AM
Quote from: Josquin13 on September 14, 2018, 01:30:55 PM
Taking the old Mitropoulos NYP & F. Charles Adler Mahler 6s off the table (even though Adler was one of Mahler's proteges)--due to sound restrictions (as requested in the opening post), along with the 1991 Tennstedt 6th because it's live, I'd say the finest Mahler 6s I've heard over the decades have been the following 5 or 6 recordings (listed in no particular order)--all of which can be heard on You Tube:

1. Leonard Bernstein: New York Philharmonic--normally, it's a no brainer for me to favor Bernstein's Columbia/Sony recordings over his later DG recordings (esp. the ones he made in Vienna), and while I do prefer his early NYP Mahler 6th over the later Vienna 6th, it's not so clear cut this time, as both are very good.  Indeed, this is one instance where I could safely recommend either recording; although, if pressed, yes, I do find the NYP performance a bit more dynamic and brilliant (it begins at 2:04: 26 on the following You Tube clip): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok8wwvduSJo&frags=pl%2Cwn

2. Here's Bernstein's Vienna performance, so you can decide for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dex4aQGotps&frags=pl%2Cwn

3. I'd also strongly recommend Leif Segerstam's excellent Mahler 6th, which is one of the finest in the catalogue, IMO (& don't be deterred by the Danish orchestra--as they play remarkably well): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK1Nu5nkKfg&frags=pl%2Cwn.  (Segerstam's Mahler 5th & 9th are excellent too.)

4. Gunther Herbig is another fine, unsung Mahler conductor.  His 5th & 6th are well worth getting to know among his Mahler recordings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL3jY6g1Rf8&list=OLAK5uy_liVPxRzj-jr-lQu5qM5As3f-JSBEHpUP0

5. I'm also a great admirer of Rafael Kubelik, and his DG (& live Audite) Mahler 6th is very fine too (and more driven than the others); however, with that said, Kubelik's DG Mahler needs to be newly remastered, IMO, & it probably will be soon, as it's long overdo (so far, only Kubelik's DG 1st has been remastered since the earliest days of the CD).  Nevertheless, Kubelik's DG 6th sounds perfectly good on You Tube (it may be an LP?--as there was nothing wrong with the original sound of the LPs): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m8cs8umfkI&frags=pl%2Cwn

6. Jascha Horenstein's Stockholm 6th should be heard too (though it is live), as his view of this symphony differs from other conductors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRDZswVLeZA&frags=pl%2Cwn  (There's also a live Horenstein Mahler 6th that was recorded with the Bournemouth S.O., but the sound quality is more of a challenge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY3PX1lCx3U&frags=pl%2Cwn

Finally, I'm normally a fan of Sir John Barbirolli's Mahler (esp. the Mahler song cycles he recorded with Dame Janet Baker--which are desert island discs in my collection), but I don't think the 6th was one of Sir John's best Mahler symphonies.  For one, I find the way he makes the music almost stutter at the opening of the 1st movement a bit odd (as it's different from the way others conduct this movement):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCnZJaRtZSo&frags=pl%2Cwn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzjtaiExMwA&list=PL7BhxaEv8fJOKaopTTYmDlHwO8Q70WWqr

However, if you're looking to collect a variety of different interpretations of the 6th, then Barbirolli's studio (and live) recording does sense (& many listeners are devoted to his Mahler).

Among recordings I've not yet heard, but which are on my wish list, I'd most like to hear Riccardo Chailly's Leipzig Gewandhaus Mahler 6th (on DVD & Blu-ray).  Judging by what I've listened to so far from this cycle (a brilliant Leipzig 9th on You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfaY1wTAtyM&frags=pl%2Cwn), Chailly's Leipzig cycle may be even better than his earlier Concertgebouw cycle.  Indeed, the excerpt from the 6th here does sound better (& good enough to go onto my list of top favorites):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9MbS7Z1Z5o&frags=pl%2Cwn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nla-nDaWPuQ&frags=pl%2Cwn

P.S. To conclude, I'd be remiss not to add that Dmitri Mitropoulos's New York Philharmonic 6th is legendary & worth hearing, at least once in your life, even if the sound does put you off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HSvGX2lG94&frags=pl%2Cwn

My two cents.

Why no love for the SFO/MTT No. 6?  I think it was recorded fantastically and features a very memorable interpretation.  The recording took place on September 12, 2001, and it is hard not to feel the national loss in that performance.  I was in the audience as well so anytime I hear it, brings me back to those terrible days.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 26, 2018, 08:21:09 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 25, 2018, 06:30:28 AM
Why no love for the SFO/MTT No. 6?  I think it was recorded fantastically and features a very memorable interpretation.  The recording took place on September 12, 2001, and it is hard not to feel the national loss in that performance.  I was in the audience as well so anytime I hear it, brings me back to those terrible days.
The extra-musical connotations aside the performance is pretty mainstream. I appreciate MTT's placing the Scherzo before the Andante (no matter who says what I still can't listen to it the other way around). i don't think there is anything wrong with the performance. It is well-played and detailed. The Andante drags on a bit and some sections lack a bit of contrast but overall is a fine performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: relm1 on September 26, 2018, 04:36:28 PM
Is there an official word on the movement order?  I prefer the scherzo as second because it gives greater expressive contrast to have the adagio next to the finale.  Otherwise is a bit tiresome.  It is interesting that a composer as exacting as Mahler seemed to be unspecific on many details like the third hammer blow (which I've heard is described as optional) and the movement sequence.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: amw on September 26, 2018, 04:52:56 PM
Andante/Scherzo is the movement order of the first published version & Mahler's preference. Scherzo/Andante was the movement order of the manuscript up until the rehearsals, when Mahler changed it. A potential complicating factor is that originally there were two scherzi, one on either side of the Andante, before the second one was cut (I think about 70 bars of it have survived in short score; Mahler probably never completed it) which accounts for his change of mind to some extent.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 26, 2018, 05:39:21 PM
Quote from: amw on September 26, 2018, 04:52:56 PM
Andante/Scherzo is the movement order of the first published version & Mahler's preference. Scherzo/Andante was the movement order of the manuscript up until the rehearsals, when Mahler changed it. A potential complicating factor is that originally there were two scherzi, one on either side of the Andante, before the second one was cut (I think about 70 bars of it have survived in short score; Mahler probably never completed it) which accounts for his change of mind to some extent.
As good an answer as any.

I was reading this article and got about 2 pages in before losing interest on this topic:

https://www.dlib.si/stream/URN:NBN:SI:DOC-IUTUYIVG/f7d2b1ee-654a-4ebd-ba06-faf1faeae13a/PDF

Abbado recorded the work with the inner mvts in both orders.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Biffo on September 27, 2018, 01:28:20 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 26, 2018, 04:36:28 PM
Is there an official word on the movement order?  I prefer the scherzo as second because it gives greater expressive contrast to have the adagio next to the finale.  Otherwise is a bit tiresome.  It is interesting that a composer as exacting as Mahler seemed to be unspecific on many details like the third hammer blow (which I've heard is described as optional) and the movement sequence.

Depends what you mean by 'official' . The International Gustav Mahler Gesellschaft is the nearest thing to an official body for Mahler's music but it was their edition and its editor Erwin Ratz that caused the problem. He published the work in the order Scherzo-Andante, basing his decision on a telegram sent by Alma Mahler to Wilhelm Mengelberg and ignored Mahler's own wishes (see previous postings).

Many conductors took the IGMG edition to be definitive and followed it. The first version I got to know was Kubelik's and he uses the IGMG edition; for many years Scherzo-Andante was the only version I knew and, in truth, is what I prefer but really it should be Andante-Scherzo. Nowadays I just play the discs as they come and don't attempt to reorder the movements.

The 6th wasn't the first time Mahler changed his mind. He wrote the 2nd symphony in the order Scherzo-Andante. As he was making no progress with the Finale he sent the three completed movements to Berlin for performance. Shortly afterwards he changed his mind and reversed the order of the movements. He wrote to Berlin informing the conductor who was rehearsing the work of his decision; the rehearsal material shows the change.
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: Wanderer on September 27, 2018, 01:43:41 AM
Quote from: amw on September 26, 2018, 04:52:56 PM
Andante/Scherzo is the movement order of the first published version & Mahler's preference. Scherzo/Andante was the movement order of the manuscript up until the rehearsals, when Mahler changed it. A potential complicating factor is that originally there were two scherzi, one on either side of the Andante, before the second one was cut (I think about 70 bars of it have survived in short score; Mahler probably never completed it) which accounts for his change of mind to some extent.

This sums it up succinctly.

Quote from: Biffo on September 27, 2018, 01:28:20 AM
...basing his decision on a telegram sent by Alma Mahler to Wilhelm Mengelberg and ignored Mahler's own wishes (see previous postings).

Dear Alma at work again.  $:)
Title: Re: Mahler Symphony No. 6
Post by: André on September 27, 2018, 04:26:58 AM
Quote from: Biffo on September 27, 2018, 01:28:20 AM
Depends what you mean by 'official' . The International Gustav Mahler Gesellschaft is the nearest thing to an official body for Mahler's music but it was their edition and its editor Erwin Ratz that caused the problem. He published the work in the order Scherzo-Andante, basing his decision on a telegram sent by Alma Mahler to Wilhelm Mengelberg and ignored Mahler's own wishes (see previous postings).

Many conductors took the IGMG edition to be definitive and followed it. The first version I got to know was Kubelik's and he uses the IGMG edition; for many years Scherzo-Andante was the only version I knew and, in truth, is what I prefer but really it should be Andante-Scherzo. Nowadays I just play the discs as they come and don't attempt to reorder the movements.

The 6th wasn't the first time Mahler changed his mind. He wrote the 2nd symphony in the order Scherzo-Andante. As he was making no progress with the Finale he sent the three completed movements to Berlin for performance. Shortly afterwards he changed his mind and reversed the order of the movements. He wrote to Berlin informing the conductor who was rehearsing the work of his decision; the rehearsal material shows the change.

The article posted above by Perfect Wagnerite is very interesting. The author definitely sides with Mahler's final thoughts, calling them « an abrupt decision that proved to be a stroke of genius ». The article laids out all the technical and musical matters that have fueled the debate over the years. There are musical pros and cons both ways, but the balance of advantages favours the revised order (andante/scherzo). But the sixth symphony is an extremely complex organism that can accept different points of view phrase after phrase, paragraph after paragraph and it's the conductor's instinct and musical judgment that ultimately gives it its definitive shape. Therefore, my opinion is that the official word on the movement order belongs to the conductor. He alone is the captain on this 80 minute musical journey. Some conductors actually perform the symphony both ways (like Ivan Fischer).

Last week I mentioned the 1963 Goldschmidt BBC performance, one of the first ever performed in the UK. Goldschmidt took the repeat in I and played the movements in the revised order. I, too, have first heard and loved it in the scherzo/andante order and prefer it that way. Mahler is supposed to have made his decision based on the effect, or impression caused by a second rythmically strong movement (too heavy), discarding the traditional hermonic tenets of key relationships that would have made the scherzo/andante order more « musical ». That was daring and actually caused experts such as Theodor Adorno to reject his decision (of which we know strictly nothing in terms of arguments: Mahler never explained his reasoning).