Dear all. I just caught myself writing that a certain recording would be getting the most votes if one ever surveyed classical music lovers (or critics) about what "the greatest recording" might be. The epitome of a classical music recording. Let's not get into the absurdity of such a claim... that's not my point.
In order not to betray my own bias and opinion, I'm just listing candidates (with apologies to every self-respecting GMG member) from Norman Lebrecht's list of 100 Great Recordings.
The idea is to get informal votes in for records that should be included in a poll of, say, 25 recordings... so that I can poll the GMG Forum at least, if not the classical world at large.
It would help if you'd indicated which choices below you second, which you might exclude (if you feel strongly about it), and which you might add.
Kreisler/Blech, LvB Violin Concerto, EMI
Mendelssohn/Schumann Piano Trios, Cortot/Thibaud/Casals, EMI
Rachmaninoff/Stokowski, 2nd PC, RCA
Schabel, Beethoven Sonatas, EMI _ II
Mahler 9, Walter, VPh, EMI _ I
Bach, Casals Cello Suites, EMI _ I
Tchaik, PC1, Horowitz/Toscanini, RCA
Toscanini, LvB Symphonies, RCA
Toscanini, LvB7 NYP, RCA _ I
Toscanini, Falstaff, RCA _ I
Chopin Waltzes, Lipatti, EMI _ I
Wagner, T&I, Furtwangler, EMI _ II
Puccini, Tosca, Callas, de Sabata, EMI _ II
Brahms, PC 1, Rubinstein, Reiner, RCA
Bach Goldberg Variations, Gould, Columbia _ III
Mozart, Figaro, E.Kleiber, Decca _ III
Bartok Cto. for Orchestra, Reiner, RCA _ I
Tchaik, Sys. 4-6, Mravinsky, DG__ IIIII
Ravel, Daphnis & Chloe, Monteux, Decca _ I
DSCH, VC & CC, Oistrahk, Rostropovich, CBS _ I
Schubert, Death & Maiden, Amadeus Quartet, DG _ I
Bartok PCs, Anda, Fricsay, DG _ II
Bach, Matthew Passion, Klemperer, EMI _ I
Prokofiev Piano Sonata 8 et al, S.Richter, DG
Elgar, Cello Concerto, J.d.Pre, LSO, Barbirolli, EMI _ III
Wagner, Ring, Solti, Decca_ IIIII
Mahler, LvdE, Ludwig, Wunderlich, Klemperer, EMI _ III
Mahler, Sy.4th, Szell, CBS
Strauss, Four Last Songs, Schwarzkopf (OTTO or Szell?), EMI _ III
Vivaldi Four Seasons, Marrinner, Decca _ I
Bach, Orchestral Suites, Harnoncourt, Teldec
Dvorak, Sys, 8 & 9, Kubelik, DG _ I
Schubert, Schoene Muellerin, Fischer-Dieskau, Moore, EMI
Schubert, Winterreise, Fischer-Dieskau, Demus, DG _ II
Bach, S&P, Milstein, DG _ I
Beethoven, Symphonies 5 & 7, Carlos Kleiber, DG _ II
Janacek, Katia Kabanova, Mackerras, Decca _ I
Janacek, Makropoulos, Mackerras, Decca _ I
Britten, Peter Grimes, Britten-Pears et al., Decca _ I
Britten, Peter Grimes, Davis, Vickers, Philips _ I
Berlioz, Les Troyens, Davis, Philips _ I
Berlioz, Les Troyens, Davis, LSO Live
Holst, Planets, Boult, EMI _ I
Berg, Lulu, Boulez, DG _ I
Mahler, 10th, Rattle, CBSO, EMI _ II
Mozart, Horn Concertos, Brian, EMI _ III
Mozart, Clarinet Concerto, Pay/Hogwood, Decca
Bach, Mass in B Minor, Gardiner, Archiv _ III
Verdi, Otello, Domingo et al., Maazel, EMI _ I
Paert, Tabula Rasa, ECM _ IIII
Bruckner 7, Vienna, Karajan, DG _ III
The Three Tenors in Concert, Decca
Gorecki, Third Symphony, Upshaw/Zinam, Nonesuch _ I
Verdi, Traviata, Gheorghiu, Solti, Decca
Beethoven Symphonies, Karajan, 1963, DG _ I
Beethoven, String Quartets, Busch Quartet, HMV/EMI/Warner
Schubert String Quintet, Prades (Casals/Tortelier)
Beethoven Symphonies, Zinman, Tonhalle, Arte Nova _ -1
Mahler 1, Kubelik, BRSO, DG _ II
Strav.: Rite of the Spring, Lenny, Sony (1958)
Strav.: Rite of the Spring, Gergiev, Philips
Strav.: Rite of the Spring, Stravinsky, either of his own _ III
Berlioz, Symphonie Fantastique, Colin Davis, LSO _ I
DSCH, Sy.15, Sanderling, Erato _ I
DSCH, Sy.15, Kondrashin, Dresden, Profil
Bach, Concertos italiaens, Tharaud, Harmonia Mundi _ II
Scarlatti, Sonatas, Pletnev, Virgin _ I
Philip Glass, Einstein on the Beach, CBS
Adams, Shaker Loops, Alsop, Naxos
Messiaen, Turangalila, Wit, Naxos
Brahms Piano Concertos, Gilels/Jochum, DG _ II
Brahms Piano Concertos, Fleisher/Szell, Sony _ I
Beethoven Piano Sonatas, Backhaus II, Decca _ I
Stravinsky, Firebird, Boulez, DG _ II
Schoenberg: Pierre Boulez, Gurrelieder, Columbia _ I
Bruckner: Eugen Jochum, Symphony #7 / Complete Bruckner Symphonies, DG _ I
Tchaikovsky: Manfred Symphony, Toscanini, RCA _ I
Sibelius, Akeo Watanabe, Complete Symphonies, Epic _ I
Tchaik/Rachmaninoff, PC 1 & 2, Argerich, Philips _ I
Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto 2, Richter, DG _ II
Mahler, Das Knaben Wunderhorn, Szell, EMI _ I
Brahms Symphony 4, Kleiber, DG _ I
Yonder Came A Courteous Knight, Ravenscroft, by the Pro Cantione Antiqua _ I
Swing, Swing, Swing the 1938 broadcast _ I
Bach, GVs, Leonhardt, 1978, DHM _ I
Sibelius, Sy.No7, HvK, DG _ I
Rachmaninov: Piano Concerto, Byron Janis #3 RCA _ I
Tchaikovsky PC 1, Rachmaninoff PC 2; Cliburn, Kondrashin/Reiner
Hummel/Piano Concertos 2&3 Hough _ I
Mozart Mass in C minor/Leppard _ I
Offenbach: Entre Nous _ I
Holst Military Suites for Band/Fennel _ I
Victoria The Victoria Collection, Christophers (Coro) _ I
North German organ music, Leonhardt (Sony/Vivarte) _ I
Buxtehude complete organ works, Harald Vogel (MDG) _ I
Bach Das wohltemperierte Clavier, Gilbert (DG/Archiv) _ I
Bach Brandenburg Concertos, Goebel (DG/Archiv) _ I
Bach Matthäus Passion, Leonhardt (Harmonia Mundi) _ I
Bach organ works, Kooiman (Coronata) _ I
Bach Die Kunst der Fuge [organ] Rogg (EMI) _ I
Händel Water Music & Music For The Royal Fireworks, Gardiner (Philips) _ I
Mozart symphonies, Hogwood (Decca/l'Oiseau Lyre) _ I
Mozart Figaro, Solti (Decca) _ I
Mozart Così, Klemperer (EMI) _ I
Mozart Zauberflöte, Klemperer (EMI) _ I
Schubert Complete Symphonies Immerseel (Columbia/Zig Zag) _ I
Chopin Vladimir Tropp plays Chopin [a.o. Sonata no. 2] (Denon) _ I
Verdi, Rigoletto (Giulini) _ I
Mahler 2, Stokowski (RCA) _ I
Mahler 6, Barbirolli (EMI) _ I
Rachmaninov Vespers, Sweschnikow (EuroDisc) _ II
L. Andriessen, De Staat (De Leeuw) _ I
Beethoven Symphony No 3 'Eroica' E Kleiber/VPO _ I
Schoenberg: Kubelik, Gurrelieder, DG _ I
The Scarlatti Sonatas, Scott Ross, Erato - 1
Bach Matthäus Passion, Mogens Wöldike (Vanguard/The Bach Guild)
Bach Goldberg Variations, Xhu Xiao-Mei (Mirare)
Beethoven Eroica symphony, Furtwängler, WP 1943 (EMI)
Beethoven Eroica Symphony, Monteux, Concertgebouw Orchestra (Philips/Decca)
Beethoven Pastoral symphony: Walter, Columbia Symphony (Sony)
Beethoven Missa Solemnis: Bernstein, Concertgebouw (DGG)
Brahms symphony no 2: Abbado, BP (1969) (DGG)
Brahms symphony no 3: Walter, Columbia Symphony (Sony)
Bruckner: symphony no 5: Klemperer, New Philharmonia (EMI)
Bruckner: symphony no 6: Keilberth, BP (Teldec)
Bruckner: symphony no 8: Böhm, WP (DGG)
Can I add a few? Toscanini and Beethoven, yes!
Off the top of my head:
Wilhelm Backhaus, Beethoven: Complete Piano Sonatas (London Stereo version)
Pierre Boulez, Stravinsky: The Firebird, DGG
Pierre Boulez, Schoenberg: Gurrelieder, Columbia
Eugen Jochum, Bruckner: Symphony #7 DGG (also: Complete Bruckner Symphonies)
Georg Solti, Wagner: Der Ring der Nibelungen, London
Arturo Toscanini, Beethoven: Symphony #7, RCA
Arturo Toscanini, Tchaikovsky: Manfred Symphony, RCA
Akeo Watanabe, Sibelius: Complete Symphonies, Epic
Quote from: Cato on April 23, 2018, 04:06:17 AM
Can I add a few? Toscanini and Beethoven, yes!
Off the top of my head:
Wilhelm Backhaus, Beethoven: Complete Piano Sonatas (London Stereo version)
Pierre Boulez, Stravinsky: The Firebird, DGG
Pierre Boulez, Schoenberg: Gurrelieder, Columbia
Eugen Jochum, Bruckner: Symphony #7 DGG (also: Complete Bruckner Symphonies)
Georg Solti, Wagner: Der Ring der Nibelungen, London Absolutely. (Included above, too.)
Arturo Toscanini, Beethoven: Symphony #7, RCA Toscanini LvB7 - the famed NYPhil recording, presumably.
Arturo Toscanini, Tchaikovsky: Manfred Symphony, RCA
Akeo Watanabe, Sibelius: Complete Symphonies, Epic First stereo Sibelius Cycle, I understand. But can this compete? Was this available in the West? Known at all? Is this a case of "Should" rather than "is", when it comes to great / milestone recordings? Sadly out of print even in Japan.
Thanks much!
These I second
Wagner, T&I, Furtwangler, EMI
Puccini, Tosca, Callas, de Sabata, EMI
Bach Goldberg Variations, Gould, Columbia
Tchaik, Sys. 4-6, Mravinsky, DG
DSCH, VC & CC, Oistrahk, Rostropovich, CBS
Bartok PCs, Anda, Fricsay, DG
Bach, Matthew Passion, Klemperer, EMI
Elgar, Cello Concerto, J.d.Pre, LSO, Barbirolli, EMI
Wagner, Ring, Solti, Decca
Mahler, LvdE, Ludwig, Wunderlich, Klemperer, EMI
Strauss, Four Last Songs, Schwarzkopf (Szell), EMI
Britten, Peter Grimes, Davis, Vickers, Philips
Berlioz, Les Troyens, Davis, Philips
Mozart, Horn Concertos, Brian, EMI
Bach, Mass in B Minor, Gardiner, Archiv
Verdi, Otello, Domingo et al., Maazel, EMI
Paert, Tabula Rasa, ECM
Bruckner 7, Vienna, Karajan, DG
Strav.: Rite of the Spring, Stravinsky, either of his own
DSCH, Sy.15, Sanderling, Erato
Brahms Piano Concertos, Fleisher/Szell, Sony
and I'd add:
Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto 2, Richter, DG
Mahler, Das Knaben Wunderhorn, Szell, EMI
Brahms Symphony 4, Kleiber, DG
Jens, do I get this right: You are listing Lebrecht's choices and it's the starting point of an eventual Top 25 List ?
The starting point is deeply flawed IMHO. I can find only 3 that may be included, out of 100 :o. So many of them have lived off their reputation... Most are way past their 'best before' date...
The 3 that I would keep are not necessarily the best phonographic production for the work at hand (artists, quality of execution, sound engineering), but they fostered huge interest from critics and the buying public, causing rediscovery and/or wholesale reappraisal of acknowledged classics:
- Bach, Goldberg Variations, Gould. A seminal record, it's been loved, imitated or loathed by 3 generations of Bach lovers. My own personal favourite is by an elderly female chinese pianist who tours the world playing only the Goldbergs. But it all started with Gould, didn't it ?
- Brahms: piano concerto no 1, Gilels and Jochum. Forget about the 2nd, it's very fine but has been done better before and since. The First remains unrivalled IMO, an epochal meeting of two titans. I suspect the producers must have been taken aback at the sheer voltage generated.
- Wagner: the Ring, Solti. Few operatic productions are as iconic as this. Not necessarily the best sung/vocally acted, but a giant step from what went before and the yardstick by which all others are measured. It can be safely said that stereophony's full potential was realized for the first time in a major operatic production.
BTW, you have the wrong Otto conducting the Four Last Songs by Schwarzkopf. It's Ackermann, not Edelmann (the baritone) :).
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 23, 2018, 04:36:56 AM
Thanks much!
QuoteAkeo Watanabe, Sibelius: Complete Symphonies, Epic First stereo Sibelius Cycle, I understand. But can this compete? Was this available in the West? Known at all? Is this a case of "Should" rather than "is", when it comes to great / milestone recordings? Sadly out of print even in Japan[/i].
The
Watanabe was absolutely available in the West: that is why I was able to hear it in Dayton in the 1960's! ;)
Yonder Came A Courteous Knight, Ravenscroft, by the Pro Cantione Antiqua
Can I vote for Swing, Swing, Swing the 1938 broadcast?
Beethoven 7, Philharmonia, Cantelli
Mahler 6, Karajan
(Okay the Mahler is a joke, I have never even heard it)
Goldberg Variations, Leonhardt, the 1980 recording
Sibelius 7, BPO, Karajan on DG
Quote from: André on April 23, 2018, 05:36:40 AM
Jens, do I get this right: You are listing Lebrecht's choices and it's the starting point of an eventual Top 25 List ?
The starting point is deeply flawed IMHO. I can find only 3 that may be included, out of 100 :o. So many of them have lived off their reputation... Most are way past their 'best before' date...
The 3 that I would keep are not necessarily the best phonographic production for the work at hand (artists, quality of execution, sound engineering), but they fostered huge interest from critics and the buying public, causing rediscovery and/or wholesale reappraisal of acknowledged classics:
- Bach, Goldberg Variations, Gould. A seminal record, it's been loved, imitated or loathed by 3 generations of Bach lovers. My own personal favourite is by an elderly female chinese pianist who tours the world playing only the Goldbergs. But it all started with Gould, didn't it ?
- Brahms: piano concerto no 1, Gilels and Jochum. Forget about the 2nd, it's very fine but has been done better before and since. The First remains unrivalled IMO, an epochal meeting of two titans. I suspect the producers must have been taken aback at the sheer voltage generated.
- Wagner: the Ring, Solti. Few operatic productions are as iconic as this. Not necessarily the best sung/vocally acted, but a giant step from what went before and the yardstick by which all others are measured. It can be safely said that stereophony's full potential was realized for the first time in a major operatic production.
BTW, you have the wrong Otto conducting the Four Last Songs by Schwarzkopf. It's Ackermann, not Edelmann (the baritone) :).
André, I'm listing Lebrecht's choices, omitting some and smuggling a few others in there. I didn't want to just use my own OTTOMH-list, especially since I have a candidate in mind and don't want to accidentally skew it towards that one.
Feel free to add as you deem important ones missing or dismiss as you deem a recording to be famous only, but not great. Incidentally, the criterion you put forth for making your selection is just about verbatim what I would have said, had I had the proper wit to put it into words.
Otto-Schmotto. (Thanks for pointing it out. :-) )
I'd only agree with three:
Tchaikovsky/Mravinsky
Beethoven 5&7/Kleiber
Elgar/DuPre
Others I'd think about adding
Hummel/Piano Concertos 2&3 Hough
Mozart Mass in C minor/Leppard
Offenbach: Entre Nous
Holst Military Suites for Band/Fennel
There could be more - would have to think about it.
Crazy contest... >:D
Can we pick our own choices, or is the Lebrecht list mandatory?
Anyway, I picked a few of the many greatest I happen to know (and adore).
Many of these are projects/collections, dunno if they count.
Victoria The Victoria Collection, Christophers (Coro)
North German organ music, Leonhardt (Sony/Vivarte)
Buxtehude complete organ works, Harald Vogel (MDG)
Bach Das wohltemperierte Clavier, Gilbert (DG/Archiv)
Bach Brandenburg Concertos, Goebel (DG/Archiv)
Bach Matthäus Passion, Leonhardt (Harmonia Mundi)
Bach organ works, Kooiman (Coronata)
Bach Die Kunst der Fuge [organ] Rogg (EMI)
Händel Water Music & Music For The Royal Fireworks, Gardiner (Philips)
Mozart symphonies, Hogwood (Decca/l'Oiseau Lyre)
Mozart Figaro, Solti (Decca)
Mozart Così, Klemperer (EMI)
Mozart Zauberflöte, Klemperer (EMI)
Schubert Complete Symphonies Immerseel (Columbia/Zig Zag)
Chopin Vladimir Tropp plays Chopin [a.o. Sonata no. 2] (Denon)
Verdi, Rigoletto (Giulini)
Mahler 2, Stokowski (RCA)
Mahler 6, Barbirolli (EMI)
Rachmaninov Vespers, Sweschnikow (EuroDisc)
L. Andriessen, De Staat (De Leeuw)
Quote from: Cato on April 23, 2018, 05:39:41 AM
The Watanabe was absolutely available in the West: that is why I was able to hear it in Dayton in the 1960's! ;)
Almost forgot! 8)
Byron Janis, Rachmaninov:
Piano Concerto #3 RCA
Quote from: Marc on April 23, 2018, 06:09:18 AM
Crazy contest... >:D
Can we pick our own choices, or is the Lebrecht list mandatory?
Good heavens, no. I just picked the Lebrecht, because it was a convenient list I had nearby, not mine, and included the obvious choices.
Seconded: Pärt, Lipatti Chopin, du Pre Elgar, Solti Ring, Klemperer Das Lied, Boulez Lulu, Rattle Mahler 10, Stravinsky conducts Rite of Spring, Tharaud Bach, Boulez Firebird, Rachmaninov Vespers, Sweschnikow (EuroDisc)
Scarlatti Sonatas: Ross
Schubert: Complete Songs (Johnson)
I have taken the original list and removed those recordings I have never heard (in some cases heard of) . I have also removed some recordings I know and love but don't think they qualify (Szell in Mahler, Klemperer in Bach etc). I have changed a couple, Kubelik for Boulez in Gurrelieder and Makropoulos for Katya out of Mackerras/Janacek recordings.
Schnabel, Beethoven Sonatas, EMI _ I
Mahler 9, Walter, VPh, EMI
Mozart, Figaro, E.Kleiber, Decca _ II
Tchaik, Sys. 4-6, Mravinsky, DG__ IIII
Ravel, Daphnis & Chloe, Monteux, Decca
Schubert, Death & Maiden, Berg Qt EMI
Tchaik, Sys. 4-6, Mravinsky, DG__ IIII
Bartok PCs, Anda, Fricsay, DG _ I
Elgar, Cello Concerto, J.d.Pre, LSO, Barbirolli, EMI _ I
Wagner, Ring, Solti, Decca_ III
Mahler, LvdE, Ludwig, Wunderlich, Klemperer, EMI _ I
Strauss, Four Last Songs, Schwarzkopf ,Szell EMI _ II
Dvorak, Sys, 8 & 9, Kubelik, DG
Schubert, Winterreise, Fischer-Dieskau, Demus, DG _ I
Janacek, Makropoulos, Mackerras, Decca
Berlioz, Les Troyens, Davis, Philips _ I
Holst, Planets, Boult, EMI
Mozart, Horn Concertos, Brian, EMI _ II
Bach, Mass in B Minor, Gardiner, Archiv _ II
Bruckner 7, Vienna, Karajan, DG _ II
Mahler 1, Kubelik, BRSO, DG _ I
Berlioz, Symphonie Fantastique, Colin Davis, LSO
Schoenberg: Kubelik, Gurrelieder, DGI
Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto 2, Richter, DG _ I
Beethoven Symphony No 3 'Eroica' E Kleiber/VPO
I don't think there is a single completely satisfactory Beethoven Symphony cycle (certainly not Zinman) so removed them all and added E. Kleiber in the 'Eroica'.
Likewise I have numerous reservations about Solti's Ring (mainly Solti) but concede it is a major landmark in recording history and has many fine points (many of them down to Solti). I thought of replacing Du Pre/Barbirolli in the Dvorak Cello Concerto with Navarra/Barbirolli but that is a personal choice and DP/B was a favourite ever since LP days and was the first album I replaced with a CD. Would go for Gilels/Jochum over Fleisher/Szell though both are very fine.
Early Music Consort of London/David Munrow, Art of the Netherlands
Gustav Leonhardt, Art of Fugue (DHM)
Jordi Savall, Lluis de Mila
Ensemble Organum, Chants de l'eglise milanaise
Wolfgang Rubsam, Well Tempered Clavier
Thomas Binkley, Machaut
Sergio Vartolo, Frescobaldi Capricci
Sergio Vartolo Froberger
Walcha, Bach organ (second recording)
Marie Claire Alain Bach Organ (Second Recording)
Paul Beier Reusner
Dmitri Badiarov Bach suites
Capella Pratensis, Ockeghem Missa Mi Mi
Giuseppi Maletto Dufay Missa Ave Regina cœlorum
There are lots of new suggestions for the poll of "The Greatest Recording Ever Made", which I'm grateful for. It's also kind of beginning to look as though it's becoming a list of just "Great Recordings Made".
To pick (at random, I swear) out an example: Is Paul Beier's recording of Reusner's Delitiae Testudinis really a serious candidate for "The Greatest Recording Ever Made"? I mean, if you think so, absolutely. We need not all converge on the Solti Ring. That's the reason I'm asking. But there should be some sense of that hard-to-define "total greatness" and perhaps also a small dash of "historical significance"?!
Long way of saying: If you recommend a recording that's not already listed, could you also then include a recording that you think should NOT be on the list?
BTW. I've added all new suggestions to the initial list by now (except the very latest) and added a few myself. Like the famous Tchaik/Rachmaninoff with Cliburn which I forgot but which is certainly of importance.
Cheers & thanks - jfl
As I'm adding Ross' Scarlatti: It will be hard to measure recordings fairly against 'projects'. A reason I am not including the Johnson Schubert Project. Perhaps cycles should not be included at all?
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 23, 2018, 10:18:09 AM
Long way of saying: If you recommend a recording not already listed, could you also then include a recording that you think should NOT be on the list?
I don't think that Ross's complete Scarlatti should be on the list, because it's not very good. His first Scarlatti recording (Stil) is a better candidate, but even then . . .
And it's astonishing that no=one has proposed the most iconic recording of all time -- Glen Gould's first Goldbergs.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 23, 2018, 10:42:39 AM
I don't think that Ross's complete Scarlatti should be on the list, because it's not very good. His first Scarlatti recording (Stil) is a better candidate, but even then . . .
And it's astonishing that no=one has proposed the most iconic recording of all time -- Glen Gould's first Goldbergs.
It was always on the list and has been seconded by Sarge and Andre (and myself). But yes, fewer votes than might be expected.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 23, 2018, 09:50:47 AM
Early Music Consort of London/David Munrow, Art of the Netherlands
Gustav Leonhardt, Art of Fugue (DHM)
Jordi Savall, Lluis de Mila
Ensemble Organum, Chants de l'eglise milanaise
Wolfgang Rubsam, Well Tempered Clavier
Thomas Binkley, Machaut
Sergio Vartolo, Frescobaldi Capricci
Sergio Vartolo Froberger
Walcha, Bach organ (second recording)
Marie Claire Alain Bach Organ (Second Recording)
Paul Beier Reusner
Dmitri Badiarov Bach suites
Capella Pratensis, Ockeghem Missa Mi Mi
Giuseppi Maletto Dufay Missa Ave Regina cœlorum
I like an 'old music' list like that.
Munrow, Ensemble Organum, Savall and Cappella Pratensis most certainly derserve a mention!
Thanks for the precisions, Jens. Some of my choices have been mentioned by others, to which I'll add my own Recordings of the Century for the 4 B. I think they are incontournables, in the sense that they make me pause and gasp every time I hear them, no matter how often. Most are well known, some not all that well known.
Bach:
- Matthäus Passion, Mogens Wöldike (Vanguard/The Bach Guild)
- Goldberg Variations, Xhu Xiao-Mei (Mirare)
Beethoven:
- Eroica symphony, Furtwängler, WP 1943 (EMI)
- Eroica Symphony, Monteux, Concertgebouw Orchestra (Philips/Decca)
- Pastoral symphony: Walter, Columbia Symphony (Sony)
- Missa Solemnis: Bernstein, Concertgebouw (DGG)
Brahms:
- symphony no 2: Abbado, BP (1969) (DGG)
- symphony no 3: Walter, Columbia Symphony (Sony)
Bruckner:
- symphony no 5: Klemperer, New Philharmonia (EMI)
- symphony no 6: Keilberth, BP (Teldec)
- symphony no 8: Böhm, WP (DGG)
I would add the Busch Quartet in late Beethoven (subtracting Zinman's Beethoven cycle) - and the Prades (Casals/Tortelier) Schubert String Quintet - both of them superb music making and, I think, of historical significance in terms of the coming together of the musicians at particular times and places in the twentieth century.
Ok, when I see a recording of a giant pile of keyboard trifles played on harpsichord as the "greatest recording ever made" I know there is something intrinsically absurd about this thing. You'd have to pay me at least $75 an hour to listen to that.
Quote from: André on April 23, 2018, 12:30:50 PM
Thanks for the precisions, Jens. Some of my choices have been mentioned by others, to which I'll add my own Recordings of the Century for the 4 B. I think they are incontournables, in the sense that they make me pause and gasp every time I hear them, no matter how often. Most are well known, some not all that well known.
I've included them for now...
It's a balance. One the one hand, the fact that a recording is not well known already suggests that it is not considered "The Greatest Recording XYZ". On the other hand, I didn't ask you to guess others choices but make your own, so all is fair game. Including a giant pile of keyboard trifles on the harpsichord. ;D (I'll take that comment as a downvote.)
I'm reposting the updated list below, so you don't have to switch between pages to see what's all included by now. Before long I'll have to get some order into it.
Dear all. I just caught myself writing that a certain recording would be getting the most votes if one ever surveyed classical music lovers (or critics) about what "the greatest recording" might be. The epitome of a classical music recording. Let's not get into the absurdity of such a claim... that's not my point.
In order not to betray my own bias and opinion, I'm just listing candidates (with apologies to every self-respecting GMG member) from Norman Lebrecht's list of 100 Great Recordings.
The idea is to get informal votes in for records that should be included in a poll of, say, 25 recordings... so that I can poll the GMG Forum at least, if not the classical world at large.
It would help if you'd indicated which choices below you second, which you might exclude (if you feel strongly about it), and which you might add.
Kreisler/Blech, LvB Violin Concerto, EMI
Mendelssohn/Schumann Piano Trios, Cortot/Thibaud/Casals, EMI
Rachmaninoff/Stokowski, 2nd PC, RCA
Schabel, Beethoven Sonatas, EMI _ II BOX
Mahler 9, Walter, VPh, EMI _ I
Bach, Casals Cello Suites, EMI _ I
Tchaik, PC1, Horowitz/Toscanini, RCA
Toscanini, LvB Symphonies, RCA BOX
Toscanini, LvB7 NYP, RCA _ I
Toscanini, Falstaff, RCA _ I
Chopin Waltzes, Lipatti, EMI _ I
Wagner, T&I, Furtwangler, EMI _ II
Puccini, Tosca, Callas, de Sabata, EMI _ II
Brahms, PC 1, Rubinstein, Reiner, RCA
Bach Goldberg Variations, Gould, Columbia _ III
Mozart, Figaro, E.Kleiber, Decca _ III
Bartok Cto. for Orchestra, Reiner, RCA _ I
Tchaik, Sys. 4-6, Mravinsky, DG__ IIIII
Ravel, Daphnis & Chloe, Monteux, Decca _ I
DSCH, VC & CC, Oistrahk, Rostropovich, CBS _ I
Schubert, Death & Maiden, Amadeus Quartet, DG _ I
Bartok PCs, Anda, Fricsay, DG _ II
Bach, Matthew Passion, Klemperer, EMI _ I
Prokofiev Piano Sonata 8 et al, S.Richter, DG
Elgar, Cello Concerto, J.d.Pre, LSO, Barbirolli, EMI _ III
Wagner, Ring, Solti, Decca_ IIIII BOX
Mahler, LvdE, Ludwig, Wunderlich, Klemperer, EMI _ III
Mahler, Sy.4th, Szell, CBS
Strauss, Four Last Songs, Schwarzkopf (OTTO or Szell?), EMI _ III
Vivaldi Four Seasons, Marrinner, Decca _ I
Bach, Orchestral Suites, Harnoncourt, Teldec
Dvorak, Sys, 8 & 9, Kubelik, DG _ I
Schubert, Schoene Muellerin, Fischer-Dieskau, Moore, EMI
Schubert, Winterreise, Fischer-Dieskau, Demus, DG _ II
Bach, S&P, Milstein, DG _ I
Beethoven, Symphonies 5 & 7, Carlos Kleiber, DG _ II
Janacek, Katia Kabanova, Mackerras, Decca _ I
Janacek, Makropoulos, Mackerras, Decca _ I
Britten, Peter Grimes, Britten-Pears et al., Decca _ I
Britten, Peter Grimes, Davis, Vickers, Philips _ I
Berlioz, Les Troyens, Davis, Philips _ I
Berlioz, Les Troyens, Davis, LSO Live
Holst, Planets, Boult, EMI _ I
Berg, Lulu, Boulez, DG _ I
Mahler, 10th, Rattle, CBSO, EMI _ II
Mozart, Horn Concertos, Brian, EMI _ III
Mozart, Clarinet Concerto, Pay/Hogwood, Decca
Bach, Mass in B Minor, Gardiner, Archiv _ III
Verdi, Otello, Domingo et al., Maazel, EMI _ I
Paert, Tabula Rasa, ECM _ IIII
Bruckner 7, Vienna, Karajan, DG _ III
The Three Tenors in Concert, Decca
Gorecki, Third Symphony, Upshaw/Zinam, Nonesuch _ I
Verdi, Traviata, Gheorghiu, Solti, Decca
Beethoven Symphonies, Karajan, 1963, DG _ I
Beethoven, String Quartets, Busch Quartet, HMV/EMI/Warner
Schubert String Quintet, Prades (Casals/Tortelier)
Beethoven Symphonies, Zinman, Tonhalle, Arte Nova _ -1
Mahler 1, Kubelik, BRSO, DG _ II
Strav.: Rite of the Spring, Lenny, Sony (1958)
Strav.: Rite of the Spring, Gergiev, Philips
Strav.: Rite of the Spring, Stravinsky, either of his own _ III
Berlioz, Symphonie Fantastique, Colin Davis, LSO _ I
DSCH, Sy.15, Sanderling, Erato _ I
DSCH, Sy.15, Kondrashin, Dresden, Profil
Bach, Concertos italiaens, Tharaud, Harmonia Mundi _ II
Scarlatti, Sonatas, Pletnev, Virgin _ I
Philip Glass, Einstein on the Beach, CBS
Adams, Shaker Loops, Alsop, Naxos
Messiaen, Turangalila, Wit, Naxos
Brahms Piano Concertos, Gilels/Jochum, DG _ II
Brahms Piano Concertos, Fleisher/Szell, Sony _ I
Beethoven Piano Sonatas, Backhaus II, Decca _ I
Stravinsky, Firebird, Boulez, DG _ II
Schoenberg: Pierre Boulez, Gurrelieder, Columbia _ I
Bruckner: Eugen Jochum, Symphony #7 / Complete Bruckner Symphonies, DG _ I
Tchaikovsky: Manfred Symphony, Toscanini, RCA _ I
Sibelius, Akeo Watanabe, Complete Symphonies, Epic _ I
Tchaik/Rachmaninoff, PC 1 & 2, Argerich, Philips _ I
Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto 2, Richter, DG _ II
Mahler, Das Knaben Wunderhorn, Szell, EMI _ I
Brahms Symphony 4, Kleiber, DG _ I
Yonder Came A Courteous Knight, Ravenscroft, by the Pro Cantione Antiqua _ I
Swing, Swing, Swing the 1938 broadcast _ I
Bach, GVs, Leonhardt, 1978, DHM _ I
Sibelius, Sy.No7, HvK, DG _ I
Rachmaninov: Piano Concerto, Byron Janis #3 RCA _ I
Tchaikovsky PC 1, Rachmaninoff PC 2; Cliburn, Kondrashin/Reiner
Hummel/Piano Concertos 2&3 Hough _ I
Mozart Mass in C minor/Leppard _ I
Offenbach: Entre Nous _ I
Holst Military Suites for Band/Fennel _ I
Victoria The Victoria Collection, Christophers (Coro) _ I
North German organ music, Leonhardt (Sony/Vivarte) _ I
Buxtehude complete organ works, Harald Vogel (MDG) _ I
Bach Das wohltemperierte Clavier, Gilbert (DG/Archiv) _ I
Bach Brandenburg Concertos, Goebel (DG/Archiv) _ I
Bach Matthäus Passion, Leonhardt (Harmonia Mundi) _ I
Bach organ works, Kooiman (Coronata) _ I
Bach Die Kunst der Fuge [organ] Rogg (EMI) _ I
Händel Water Music & Music For The Royal Fireworks, Gardiner (Philips) _ I
Mozart symphonies, Hogwood (Decca/l'Oiseau Lyre) _ I
Mozart Figaro, Solti (Decca) _ I
Mozart Così, Klemperer (EMI) _ I
Mozart Zauberflöte, Klemperer (EMI) _ I
Schubert Complete Symphonies Immerseel (Columbia/Zig Zag) _ I
Chopin Vladimir Tropp plays Chopin [a.o. Sonata no. 2] (Denon) _ I
Verdi, Rigoletto (Giulini) _ I
Mahler 2, Stokowski (RCA) _ I
Mahler 6, Barbirolli (EMI) _ I
Rachmaninov Vespers, Sweschnikow (EuroDisc) _ II
L. Andriessen, De Staat (De Leeuw) _ I
Beethoven Symphony No 3 'Eroica' E Kleiber/VPO _ I
Schoenberg: Kubelik, Gurrelieder, DG _ I
The Scarlatti Sonatas, Scott Ross, Erato BOX - 2
Bach Matthäus Passion, Mogens Wöldike (Vanguard/The Bach Guild)
Bach Goldberg Variations, Xhu Xiao-Mei (Mirare)
Beethoven Eroica symphony, Furtwängler, WP 1943 (EMI)
Beethoven Eroica Symphony, Monteux, Concertgebouw Orchestra (Philips/Decca)
Beethoven Pastoral symphony: Walter, Columbia Symphony (Sony)
Beethoven Missa Solemnis: Bernstein, Concertgebouw (DGG)
Brahms symphony no 2: Abbado, BP (1969) (DGG)
Brahms symphony no 3: Walter, Columbia Symphony (Sony)
Bruckner: symphony no 5: Klemperer, New Philharmonia (EMI)
Bruckner: symphony no 6: Keilberth, BP (Teldec)
Bruckner: symphony no 8: Böhm, WP (DGG)
Liszt: Sonata in B minor, Krystian Zimerman, DG _ I
Faure: Requiem, Pavane . Durufle: Requiem, Philip Ledger, EMI _ I
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 23, 2018, 01:09:02 PM
Ok, when I see a recording of a giant pile of keyboard trifles played on harpsichord as the "greatest recording ever made" I know there is something intrinsically absurd about this thing. You'd have to pay me at least $75 an hour to listen to that.
Which entry are you referring to?
Quote from: Sammy on April 23, 2018, 01:48:26 PM
Which entry are you referring to?
Scarlatti Sonatas recorded by Ross.
I think the question of including or not complete cycles is a fair one. On the one hand, it's impossible and rather silly to choose a single Scarlatti sonata (1/555) or even Bach cantata (1/250ish), and on the other, it doen't make sense to eliminate them altogether because they're such a huge batch of works. A question to ponder.
As for the Ring, I think it should be considered a single work - in a Prologue and three Journeys. More complications, I'm afraid.
....................................
Now, my choices for the 5 « S » :D
Schubert
- Recital by Elly Ameling (w. Jörg Demus - incl. Der Hirt auf dem Felsen), Harmonia Mundi
- Symphony no 9, Sinopoli, Staatskapelle Dresden - DGG
Schumann
- Symphony no 4, Klemperer, New Philharmonia
- Symphony no 3, Giulini, LAPO - DGG
Shostakovich
- Symphony no 5, Bernstein NYPO in Tokyo, Sony
- Symphony no 8, Kondrashin, Moscow Philharmonic
Sibelius
- Symphony no 1, Stokowski, National Philharmonic, Sony
- Symphony no 2. Barbirolli, Royal Philharmonic
- Symphonies 3 and 5. Rozhdestvensky, USSR TV and Radio Large SO
- Symphony no 6. Karajan, BP - DGG
Strauss (R)
- Also Sprach Zarathustra. Steinberg, Boston Symphony, DGG
- Don Quixote. Fournier, Szell, Cleveland Orchestra, Sony.
- Ein Heldenleben. Haitink, Chicago Symphony - CSO
- Four Last Songs. Janowitz, Karajan, BP - DGG
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 23, 2018, 01:09:02 PM
Ok, when I see a recording of a giant pile of keyboard trifles played on harpsichord as the "greatest recording ever made" I know there is something intrinsically absurd about this thing. You'd have to pay me at least $75 an hour to listen to that.
I'd even do it for free!
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 23, 2018, 01:09:02 PM
Ok, when I see a recording of a giant pile of keyboard trifles played on harpsichord as the "greatest recording ever made" I know there is something intrinsically absurd about this thing. You'd have to pay me at least $75 an hour to listen to that.
Trifles?!! :o :-X >:(
I don't like these Great Recordings lists. Who are they for and how are they meant to be used?
I think it's better to start with repertoire and then list several recordings that represent different poles of interpretation (with brief descriptions), perhaps supplementing with notable historical recordings.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 23, 2018, 01:09:02 PM
Ok, when I see a recording of a giant pile of keyboard trifles played on harpsichord as the "greatest recording ever made" I know there is something intrinsically absurd about this thing. You'd have to pay me at least $75 an hour to listen to that.
More like a giant musical monument for the ages..... 0:)
When I was a teenager, I compared Scarlatti with running tap water..... so there is still hope... ;)
Q
Quote from: Daverz on April 23, 2018, 09:48:23 PM
Trifles?!! :o :-X >:(
I don't like these Great Recordings lists. Who are they for and how are they meant to be used?
I think it's better to start with repertoire and then list several recordings that represent different poles of interpretation (with brief descriptions), perhaps supplementing with notable historical recordings.
Yeah, you're right, those lists are useless (mostly just meant for showing off), but that doesn't mean I don't like them. ;)
Sometimes I have a fondness for uselessness.
Quote from: Que on April 23, 2018, 09:55:07 PM
More like a giant musical monument for the ages..... 0:)
When I was a teenager, I compared Scarlatti with running tap water..... so there is still hope... ;)
Scarlatti is the water.
Scarlatti is the well.
Drunk full, ....(I'll stop here.)
Quote from: Que on April 23, 2018, 09:55:07 PM
More like a giant musical monument for the ages..... 0:)
When I was a teenager, I compared Scarlatti with running tap water..... so there is still hope... ;)
Q
But he wasn't talking about Scarlatti per se, he was talking about Ross's Scarlatti in the complete set.
This thing isn't about music, it's about interpretation on record.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 23, 2018, 10:21:36 PM
But he wasn't talking about Scarlatti per se, he was talking about Ross's Scarlatti in the complete set.
I thought he was talking about 'a giant pile of keyboard trifles' played on a harpsichord.
No mentioning of the interpreter as far as I understand.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 23, 2018, 10:21:36 PM
This thing isn't about music, it's about interpretation on record.
Yep, and therefore the Baron's post is good for a laugh, but, that's all.
(Nothing wrong with that though.)
Quote from: Marc on April 23, 2018, 10:14:41 PM
Yeah, you're right, those lists are useless (mostly just meant for showing off), but that doesn't mean I don't like them. ;)
Sometimes I have a fondness for uselessness.
Maybe not quite useless, but the use of the title "greatest recordings" is IMO a misnomer, which tends to authorize the choices over ability. Better if we made a list with our recommendations. This would display the subjectivity of the endeavor.
Quote from: Marc on April 23, 2018, 10:35:53 PM
Yep, and therefore the Baron's post is good for a laugh, but, that's all.
He probably intended that.
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 23, 2018, 11:16:48 PM
Maybe not quite useless, but the use of the title "greatest recordings" is IMO a misnomer, which tends to authorize the choices over ability. Better if we made a list with our recommendations. This would display the subjectivity of the endeavor.
I specifically want "GREATEST" and all the associations that go with it, however amorphous. (Although I admit that I don't know what "authorize choices over ability" means.)
And I don't want a subjective-as-possible list, I want a list that would converge towards a consensus. In this first round of info-gathering I'm opening it up to avoid biases...
Liszt: Sonata in B minor / Nuages gris / La notte / La lugubre gondola II / Funérailles
Krystian Zimerman
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51qduupWXAL._SX425_.jpg)
Faure: Requiem, Pavane . Durufle: Requiem
Philip Ledger
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81Ox0voMjgL._SX425_.jpg)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 24, 2018, 12:12:48 AM
(Although I admit that I don't know what "authorize choices over ability" means.)
With other words: Authorize the choices more than the basis allows.
Hopefully this is understandable.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 24, 2018, 12:12:48 AM
I specifically want "GREATEST" and all the associations that go with it, however amorphous. (Although I admit that I don't know what "authorize choices over ability" means.)
And I don't want a subjective-as-possible list, I want a list that would converge towards a consensus. In this first round of info-gathering I'm opening it up to avoid biases...
So you want the received opinion of what the greatest recordings are as gleaned by the members from our collective knowledge of the zeitgeist, or something like that, rather than our own personal "greatest recordings". Well, phooey.
Quote from: Daverz on April 24, 2018, 01:19:08 AM
So you want the received opinion of what the greatest recordings are as gleaned by the members from our collective knowledge of the zeitgeist, or something like that, rather than our own personal "greatest recordings". Well, phooey.
It's more complicated than that. (Which becomes obvious when reading my various, however impotent, attempts at explaining what I want.)
Basically, I want to ARRIVE at what you say, but THROUGH your
personal "Greatest Recordings".
There is a recording I think might be considered "THE classical recording"
par excellence. I want to know if one can arrive at that, without triggering that "collective knowledge of the Zeitgeist", as you put it quite fittingly. And in the course of it I want to pump you for what you think are among the greatest recordings... both out of interest to learn what the different meanings of "Greatest Recordings" are to you, and also what recordings they actually are. (I'll be bound to leave a bunch of quid with record companies in the course of this thread.)
Oh, and I nominate Pollini's late LVB Sonatas (DG) to the above list, thinking of what
MY Greatest Recordings are.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 24, 2018, 01:43:46 AM
Basically, I want to ARRIVE at what you [Daverz] say, but THROUGH your personal "Greatest Recordings".
Maybe there are recordings, where a relative consensus may be found, but the main problem in my view is, that the matter is entirely subjective (at least in the way you organize it), and that many possible candidates are quite controversial. Some recordings may be adored by some but detested by others. How many votes pro and how many votes contra do you need to put or not to put a recording on the list?
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 24, 2018, 02:17:55 AM
Maybe there are recordings, where a relative consensus may be found, but the main problem in my view is, that the matter is entirely subjective (at least in the way you organize it), and that many possible candidates are quite controversial. Some recordings may be adored by some but detested by others. How many votes pro and how many votes contra do you need to put or not to put a recording on the list?
And therefore my personal view is: useless, senseless, but... good fun. :)
(As with loads of other threads here.)
I mean, really, Klemperer's recording of Bach's Matthäus Passion a candidate for
The Greatest Recording Ever Made? :laugh: (fun)
(Et cetera.)
EDIT: before a possible war will start: I consider Klemperer one of the greatest conductors of the 'recorded' history, but not for Bach. His SMP even sounds old-fashioned compared to (f.i.) Richter, Werner and Münchinger. Which doesn't mean no one is allowed to like it, though.
(Wiping the sweat from my forehead.)
Quote from: Marc on April 24, 2018, 02:26:36 AM
And therefore my personal view is: useless, senseless, but... good fun. :)
(As with loads of other threads here.)
I mean, really, Klemperer's recording of Bach's Matthäus Passion a candidate for The Greatest Recording Ever Made? :laugh: (fun)
(Et cetera.)
EDIT: before a possible war will start: I consider Klemperer one of the greatest conductors of the 'recorded' history, but not for Bach. His SMP even sounds old-fashioned compared to (f.i.) Richter, Werner and Münchinger. Which doesn't mean no one is allowed to like it, though.
(Wiping the sweat from my forehead.)
I think that is what makes it such fun: All the things we realize go into GROC-status. Will we consider it -- which is to say the interpretation -- entirely from our vantage point now? Or for what it was at its time? The effect it had? Will we consider that? Who was the greatest long jumper of all time? The one currently holding the world record? Or Bob Beamon? Or Carl Lewis? What bestows greatness on a recording, if it is anything but our personal response to it? And even then: Our personal response will be subject to different factors. What if I had had heard all of Beethoven's piano sonatas already, before ever hearing Pollini play them? Would that recording still have left as indelible an impression? And yet there ARE decidedly GREAT recordings -- we know that and we can even agree on it. (Or not? This is the thread to find out.) Or consider questions like: How come people who don't even love the Solti Ring will still vote for it? What is the role of "achievement" in such a status?
Here are three recordings that I LOVE and three that I think are "GREAT" (with a strong dash of "seminal"!), just to illustrate the difference/overlap:
♥: Pollini, Late Beethoven Sonatas. Pletnev, Scarlatti Sonatas. Barenboim, Tristan.
!: Pollini, Late Beethoven Sonatas. Furtwangler, LvB 9, Bayreuth. Erich Kleiber, Le Nozze di Figaro.
I can totally see how Klemperer would be in the running... but don't even have that recording in my collection and never felt inclined to acquire it. (I do and like Mengelberg, but I give it much more historical leeway than I would, Old Klempi. I am part of the generation where the English-centric Klemperer hype totally went by...)
Quote from: Marc on April 24, 2018, 02:26:36 AM
And therefore my personal view is: useless, senseless, but... good fun. :)
(As with loads of other threads here.)
Maybe I take things too seriously.
Quote from: Marc
I mean, really, Klemperer's recording of Bach's Matthäus Passion a candidate for The Greatest Recording Ever Made? :laugh: (fun)
(Et cetera.)
EDIT: before a possible war will start: I consider Klemperer one of the greatest conductors of the 'recorded' history, but not for Bach. His SMP even sounds old-fashioned compared to (f.i.) Richter, Werner and Münchinger. Which doesn't mean no one is allowed to like it, though.
(Wiping the sweat from my forehead.)
I quite agree with your view upon Klemperer and his SMP - and one can add his b-minor mass, but his recordings of the Brandenburg concertos are rather modern for their time (1947 and 1962) and throughout enjoyable.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 24, 2018, 12:12:48 AM
I specifically want "GREATEST" and all the associations that go with it, however amorphous. (Although I admit that I don't know what "authorize choices over ability" means.)
And I don't want a subjective-as-possible list, I want a list that would converge towards a consensus. In this first round of info-gathering I'm opening it up to avoid biases...
Why?
Quote from: Mandryka on April 24, 2018, 04:06:56 AM
Why?
1.) Because I have a theory and I want to put it to the test
2.) Because I enjoy the process.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 24, 2018, 01:43:46 AM
Basically, I want to ARRIVE at what you say, but THROUGH your personal "Greatest Recordings".
There is a recording I think might be considered "THE classical recording" par excellence. I want to know if one can arrive at that, without triggering that "collective knowledge of the Zeitgeist", as you put it quite fittingly. And in the course of it I want to pump you for what you think are among the greatest recordings... both out of interest to learn what the different meanings of "Greatest Recordings" are to you, and also what recordings they actually are. (I'll be bound to leave a bunch of quid with record companies in the course of this thread.)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 24, 2018, 04:27:14 AM
1.) Because I have a theory and I want to put it to the test
Say more . . .
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 24, 2018, 02:59:36 AM
I think that is what makes it such fun: All the things we realize go into GROC-status. Will we consider it -- which is to say the interpretation -- entirely from our vantage point now? Or for what it was at its time? The effect it had? Will we consider that? Who was the greatest long jumper of all time? The one currently holding the world record? Or Bob Beamon? Or Carl Lewis? What bestows greatness on a recording, if it is anything but our personal response to it? And even then: Our personal response will be subject to different factors. What if I had had heard all of Beethoven's piano sonatas already, before ever hearing Pollini play them? Would that recording still have left as indelible an impression? And yet there ARE decidedly GREAT recordings -- we know that and we can even agree on it. (Or not? This is the thread to find out.) Or consider questions like: How come people who don't even love the Solti Ring will still vote for it? What is the role of "achievement" in such a status?
Here are three recordings that I LOVE and three that I think are "GREAT" (with a strong dash of "seminal"!), just to illustrate the difference/overlap:
♥: Pollini, Late Beethoven Sonatas. Pletnev, Scarlatti Sonatas. Barenboim, Tristan.
!: Pollini, Late Beethoven Sonatas. Furtwangler, LvB 9, Bayreuth. Erich Kleiber, Le Nozze di Figaro.
I can totally see how Klemperer would be in the running... but don't even have that recording in my collection and never felt inclined to acquire it. (I do and like Mengelberg, but I give it much more historical leeway than I would, Old Klempi. I am part of the generation where the English-centric Klemperer hype totally went by...)
I have heard all of these. And none of these would my own 'greatest' list. I wouldn't nominate any of them either, although I don't mind the Beethoven/Pollini as a choice. I'm not sure that it means anything, and I am not suggesting to anyone that they can't have them on their lists, but I don't think they are great (and so consensus seems unlikely). Some of them are quite good, but not even all of them are that (for me). For example. I've never connected to Furtwangler's Beethoven. And Kleiber's Mozart is ok, but Solti's FAR exceeds it.
The other problem I have (and it seems to be purely mine) is that there are too many contenders. I don't understand when people nominate so many choices. They can't all be the greatest.
There is also the problem, and this is my theory, that people often dismiss performances they haven't heard (especially if they dislike one of the contributors). I'd like to be wrong on this...
Quote from: Turner on April 24, 2018, 02:42:30 AM
Obviously, Mengelberg's (from 1939) could count as a valuable, earlier, partly 'proto-Klemperer' example in this respect, free of the now dominating HIP tendencies that were to come. And Scherchen´s (from 1953) is even considered partly proto-HIP by some, for example in the chosen tempi, but the singing is of irregular quality.
Or pick the 1957 Anthon van der Horst live recording in Naarden (reissued by Fidelio in 1993) with viola da gamba, oboe d'amore, oboe da caccia et al. 'His'
Matthäus was considered more historically informed than Mengelberg's. But if Mengelberg wasn't able to conduct the piece in Amsterdam on Palm Sunday, he was replaced by Van der Horst (in the 1930s). There was much mutual respect. Mengelberg's successor Eduard van Beinum was also more interested in the historical backgrounds. He corresponded with Paul Badura-Skoda about that. There's a reissued recording of Van Beinum's 1958 live performance on compact disc (Audiophile), but I have not listened to that one (yet).
(Apologies for getting a bit off-topic.)
There seem to be a number of candidates that pre-date the stereo era, and next to none that date from the digital era. Despite general standards of musicianship, and the ability to record that musicianship more or less faithfully, having risen over time. Am I to deduce that 'Recording' is being used in the sense of a historical document, rather than in the sense of a good copy?
Quote from: aukhawk on April 24, 2018, 04:57:38 AM
There seem to be a number of candidates that pre-date the stereo era, and next to none that date from the digital era. Despite general standards of musicianship, and the ability to record that musicianship more or less faithfully, having risen over time. Am I to deduce that 'Recording' is being used in the sense of a historical document, rather than in the sense of a good copy?
I can't speak for Jens, but yours truly selected about a dozen stereo digital recordings, and, AFAIK, they were all 'accepted'.
So my guess would be: until now, most contributors are indeed of the opinion that the greatest recordings of many-a-piece were made in the pre-digital period.
Is this going to be a Sammy-style voting poll? If so, a consensus would develop and those recordings with the most votes would rise to the top.
Quote from: Marc on April 24, 2018, 05:19:46 AM
So my guess would be: until now, most contributors are indeed of the opinion that the greatest recordings of many-a-piece were made in the pre-digital period.
Hmm. Well I would agree with 'pre-digital' as it happens.
So modern - or recent past - musicians stand in the shadows of giants? Not on their shoulders? Is this a problem with the conservatoire system of musical education? Are all pianists since Liszt diminished by definition?
Quote from: aukhawk on April 24, 2018, 05:35:59 AM
Hmm. Well I would agree with 'pre-digital' as it happens.
So modern - or recent past - musicians stand in the shadows of giants? Not on their shoulders? Is this a problem with the conservatoire system of musical education? Are all pianists since Liszt diminished by definition?
Or ... people imprint on recordings when young. For me the Karajan DG Sibelius 7 will always be the one everything else is mentally compared to. And while many come close I still like it best. Had I imprinted on the Davis/Boston that might be my choice, etc.
Quote from: Marc on April 24, 2018, 05:19:46 AM
So my guess would be: until now, most contributors are indeed of the opinion that the greatest recordings of many-a-piece were made in the pre-digital period.
In theory, any recording could be "the greatest". But in practice, I suppose it will be something more like: Which recording has for the longest time been thought "among the greatest" by the most people. And obviously older recordings have the advantage of
accrued reputation. Also, there was less competition back then, so a REALLY GOOD recording of the Beethoven 5th was more likely to get into a glory-position than if a similarly good recording of that work appeared today.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 24, 2018, 04:44:06 AM
I have heard all of these. And none of these would my own 'greatest' list. I wouldn't nominate any of them either, although I don't mind the Beethoven/Pollini as a choice. I'm not sure that it means anything, and I am not suggesting to anyone that they can't have them on their lists, but I don't think they are great (and so consensus seems unlikely). Some of them are quite good, but not even all of them are that (for me). For example. I've never connected to Furtwangler's Beethoven. And Kleiber's Mozart is ok, but Solti's FAR exceeds it.
The other problem I have (and it seems to be purely mine) is that there are too many contenders. I don't understand when people nominate so many choices. They can't all be the greatest.
There is also the problem, and this is my theory, that people often dismiss performances they haven't heard (especially if they dislike one of the contributors). I'd like to be wrong on this...
I think there might be
some consensus for the recordings I picked as being "great". Incidentally, I'm not too gaga about that Furtwangler Ninth, either... but it stands for one interpretation of what "great" might mean. (I.e. reputation.) And I thought that Kleiber's Mozart was very widely considered very good -- even great -- by a lot of people?!
I'm prejudiced against Solit, I'm afraid. Perhaps BECAUSE I have none of his Mozart, except his second Don Giovanni and his second (?) Cosi. Your point about people having opinions about recordings they have never heard is very valid. Encountered a lot of that while working at Tower.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 24, 2018, 04:44:06 AM
There is also the problem, and this is my theory, that people often dismiss performances they haven't heard (especially if they dislike one of the contributors). I'd like to be wrong on this...
I dismissed (if that is the right word) more than half the list on the grounds that I felt unable to comment on recordings I haven't heard, however great their reputations. I also left out a few I didn't think worthy of 'greatest'.
Regarding my comments on Scarlati, I think if you are going to claim something is the greatest recording ever made, it has to be something monumental, that changed the business of making recordings and changed the way people listen to music. Probably it should be of a monumental piece of music, like Beethoven's 9th and something that many people have heard. Something like a Furtwangler wartime recording of the 9th, Van Cliburn's recording after winning the competition in Moscow, Dorati's 1812 Overture, Gould's Goldbergs. Exquisite though they may be, to suggest a series of recordings of harpsichord music that maybe sold 800 copies strikes me as crazy.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 24, 2018, 06:18:28 AM
I think there might be some consensus for the recordings I picked as being "great". Incidentally, I'm not too gaga about that Furtwangler Ninth, either... but it stands for one interpretation of what "great" might mean. (I.e. reputation.) And I thought that Kleiber's Mozart was very widely considered very good -- even great -- by a lot of people?!
Generally, an issue is that some of these recordings were the best of their time (or considered so by those then listening). As times have changed, so have practices and the like. So I would agree that many of those highlighted have been considered 'great' at some point in time by some group of people. But I think we need to re-evaluate them all, which isn't something that most people do. Usually when someone attacks a favorite, the knee-jerk response is to dismiss the objection.
SO I have been re-listening to the Mozart/Kleiber. It IS better than I remembered it. I think the conducting/orchestra is it's greatest strength. The singing is solid, but I am not wowed as I am in some other sets. Bohm, for example, is as equally well conducted and I prefer the singing. So perhaps it's not so much a question of its quality, but its comparative quality. But then, I think it's also harder for an opera recording to stay at the top over time.
Lastly, I am torn by using 'reputation' as an indicator of quality. The issue here is simply one of marketing. Some versions get detractors or defenders and this can influence a reputation quite significantly (not to mention the lifelong attempts at this of some artists, whose influence is still felt today). Some recent threads highlight that idea quite well, especially when they do everything to convince listeners of its good/bad qualities.
Incidentally, no matter how good the performance, I would ding some performances simply because the sound quality isn't good enough. I know not everyone would agree with this.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 24, 2018, 07:47:27 AM
Regarding my comments on Scarlati, I think if you are going to claim something is the greatest recording ever made, it has to be something monumental, that changed the business of making recordings and changed the way people listen to music.
An example would be a recording which changed the way that people listened to Esaias Reusner.
I agree with what you're getting at, if the concept has any value it has to be along the lines you're suggesting and has nothing to do with this sort of way of thinking
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 24, 2018, 04:44:06 AM
. . . For example. I've never connected to Furtwangler's Beethoven. . . .
So for example, I've never "connected to" Toscanini's NBC Beethoven but his way of playing the music was such an important influence historically (Toscanini, I would say, is the origin of the ideas of Klemperer, Boulez . . . ) that I think it's probably a contender.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 24, 2018, 07:57:28 AM
An example would be a recording which changed the way that people listened to Esaias Reusner.
I agree with what you're getting at, if the concept has any value it has to be along the lines you're suggesting and has nothing to do with this sort of way of thinking
So for example, I've never "connected to" Toscanini's NBC Beethoven but his way of playing the music was such an important influence historically (Toscanini, I would say, is the origin of the ideas of Klemperer, Boulez . . . ) that I think it's probably a contender.
I love Toscanini. But I wouldn't include his Beethoven either. He did better things.
But I think the problem for both of these particular conductors is that they have a group of people that adore him (can do no wrong) or hate him (to the point of irrationality). Thus, it can be hard to judge them. That said, both had an enormous influence on their contemporaries and those who came after. And not including them (or a performance of theirs) will not change that.
Then there is the issue that these (and some others) are associated with or caught up with emotionally resonant events. And this can help us give greater weight to their performances. I suppose it is perfectly normal but that does not mean that we cannot re-assess their virtues as time moves away from those events. Personally, I would try to divest them from those events, but again, others may disagree and say that the event (or association) and the performance are intertwined and that part of what makes it great is the very emotion of it.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 24, 2018, 07:57:28 AMSo for example, I've never "connected to" Toscanini's NBC Beethoven but his way of playing the music was such an important influence historically (Toscanini, I would say, is the origin of the ideas of Klemperer, Boulez . . . ) that I think it's probably a contender.
Toscanini would be a good choice.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 24, 2018, 08:07:43 AMThen there is the issue that these (and some others) are associated with or caught up with emotionally resonant events. And this can help us give greater weight to their performances. I suppose it is perfectly normal but that does not mean that we cannot re-assess their virtues as time moves away from those events. Personally, I would try to divest them from those events, but again, others may disagree and say that the event (or association) and the performance are intertwined and that part of what makes it great is the very emotion of it.
It is not performance, it is
recording. After Toscanini recorded Beethoven millions of people who had never heard it before heard it, or heard it a new way. After Casals recorded Bach's suites, music which was utterly obscure became widely known. This should not be about who got the tempo just right in the andante. It should be about what classical recording had the biggest impact on the world. Aren't you tired of endlessly fussing about what recording got this or that little detail right?
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 24, 2018, 08:07:43 AM
I love Toscanini. But I wouldn't include his Beethoven either. He did better things.
But I think the problem for both of these particular conductors is that they have a group of people that adore him (can do no wrong) or hate him (to the point of irrationality). Thus, it can be hard to judge them. That said, both had an enormous influence on their contemporaries and those who came after. And not including them (or a performance of theirs) will not change that.
Then there is the issue that these (and some others) are associated with or caught up with emotionally resonant events. And this can help us give greater weight to their performances. I suppose it is perfectly normal but that does not mean that we cannot re-assess their virtues as time moves away from those events. Personally, I would try to divest them from those events, but again, others may disagree and say that the event (or association) and the performance are intertwined and that part of what makes it great is the very emotion of it.
My point was though that like him or not, love him or hate him, Toscanini invented a way of reading the score which was very influential in the C20. That makes what he did great.
Similarly for Gould's Goldbergs -- more so.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 24, 2018, 08:11:53 AM
It is not performance, it is recording. After Toscanini recorded Beethoven millions of people who had never heard it before heard it. After Casals recorded Bach's suites, music which was utterly obscure became widely known. This should not be about who got the tempo just write in the andante. It should be about what classical recording had the biggest impact on the world. Aren't you tired of endlessly fussing about what recording got this or that little detail right?
I agree with you here.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 24, 2018, 08:11:53 AM
It is not performance, it is recording. After Toscanini recorded Beethoven millions of people who had never heard it before heard it. After Casals recorded Bach's suites, music which was utterly obscure became widely known. This should not be about who got the tempo just write in the andante. It should be about what classical recording had the biggest impact on the world. Aren't you tired of endlessly fussing about what recording got this or that little detail right?
That would not be my criteria, which I guess is now obvious. But isn't that what this thread is revealing about all of us - we apply different criteria.
It is up to the thread originator to set the criteria, I suppose. That's how I interpreted it.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 24, 2018, 07:56:25 AMSome versions get detractors or defenders and this can influence a reputation quite significantly (not to mention the lifelong attempts at this of some artists, whose influence is still felt today). Some recent threads highlight that idea quite well, especially when they do everything to convince listeners of its good/bad qualities.
You're talking about my discussion of Karajan's Mahler? I tried to shy away from evaluating the recording as good or bad. I merely wanted to show how it was not an accurate representation of what Mahler wrote. That's how the discussion started and I tried to keep it as objective as possible.
Also, I'd be interested in what ways you think my own impression of Karajan was influenced by others.
OK: Top of PAGE FOUR is as good a reason as any to give this exercise a new impulse.
edit: holy mackerell -- 11 new posts since I started on this.
Everyone gets to nominate 10 Recordings off the list or add their own. Whatever you think "great" is. Most meaningful. Changed recording history. Changed listening-history. Changed MY life. Sounds best. Greatest performance of most important work at the time...
I have underlined some that might be conventionally/historically be seen as "great".... or whichever release has so far gotten at least three votes.
Kreisler/Blech, LvB Violin Concerto, EMI
Mendelssohn/Schumann Piano Trios, Cortot/Thibaud/Casals, EMI
Rachmaninoff/Stokowski, 2nd PC, RCA
Schabel, Beethoven Sonatas, EMI _ II BOX
Mahler 9, Walter, VPh, EMI _ I
Bach, Casals Cello Suites, EMI _ I
Tchaik, PC1, Horowitz/Toscanini, RCA
Toscanini, LvB Symphonies, RCA BOX
Toscanini, LvB7 NYP, RCA _ I
Toscanini, Falstaff, RCA _ I
Chopin Waltzes, Lipatti, EMI _ I
Wagner, T&I, Furtwangler, EMI _ II
Puccini, Tosca, Callas, de Sabata, EMI _ II
Brahms, PC 1, Rubinstein, Reiner, RCA
Bach Goldberg Variations, Gould, Columbia _ III
Mozart, Figaro, E.Kleiber, Decca _ III
Bartok Cto. for Orchestra, Reiner, RCA _ I
Tchaik, Sys. 4-6, Mravinsky, DG _ IIIII
Ravel, Daphnis & Chloe, Monteux, Decca _ I
DSCH, VC & CC, Oistrahk, Rostropovich, CBS _ I
Schubert, Death & Maiden, Amadeus Quartet, DG _ I
Bartok PCs, Anda, Fricsay, DG _ II
Bach, Matthew Passion, Klemperer, EMI _ I
Prokofiev Piano Sonata 8 et al, S.Richter, DG
Elgar, Cello Concerto, J.d.Pre, LSO, Barbirolli, EMI _ III
Wagner, Ring, Solti, Decca_ IIIII BOX
Mahler, LvdE, Ludwig, Wunderlich, Klemperer, EMI _ III
Mahler, Sy.4th, Szell, CBS
Strauss, Four Last Songs, Schwarzkopf (OTTO or Szell?), EMI _ III
Vivaldi Four Seasons, Marrinner, Decca _ I
Bach, Orchestral Suites, Harnoncourt, Teldec
Dvorak, Sys, 8 & 9, Kubelik, DG _ I
Schubert, Schoene Muellerin, Fischer-Dieskau, Moore, EMI
Schubert, Winterreise, Fischer-Dieskau, Demus, DG _ II
Bach, S&P, Milstein, DG _ I
Beethoven, Symphonies 5 & 7, Carlos Kleiber, DG _ II
Janacek, Katia Kabanova, Mackerras, Decca _ I
Janacek, Makropoulos, Mackerras, Decca _ I
Britten, Peter Grimes, Britten-Pears et al., Decca _ I
Britten, Peter Grimes, Davis, Vickers, Philips _ I
Berlioz, Les Troyens, Davis, Philips _ I
Berlioz, Les Troyens, Davis, LSO Live
Holst, Planets, Boult, EMI _ I
Berg, Lulu, Boulez, DG _ I
Mahler, 10th, Rattle, CBSO, EMI _ II
Mozart, Horn Concertos, Brian, EMI _ III
Mozart, Clarinet Concerto, Pay/Hogwood, Decca
Bach, Mass in B Minor, Gardiner, Archiv _ III
Verdi, Otello, Domingo et al., Maazel, EMI _ I
Paert, Tabula Rasa, ECM _ IIII
Bruckner 7, Vienna, Karajan, DG _ III
The Three Tenors in Concert, Decca
Gorecki, Third Symphony, Upshaw/Zinam, Nonesuch _ I
Verdi, Traviata, Gheorghiu, Solti, Decca
Beethoven Symphonies (alternatively: Eroica), Karajan, 1963, DG _ I (BOX)
Beethoven, String Quartets, Busch Quartet, HMV/EMI/WarnerSchubert String Quintet, Prades (Casals/Tortelier)
Beethoven Symphonies, Zinman, Tonhalle, Arte Nova _ -1
Mahler 1, Kubelik, BRSO, DG _ II
Strav.: Rite of the Spring, Lenny, Sony (1958)
Strav.: Rite of the Spring, Gergiev, Philips
Strav.: Rite of the Spring, Stravinsky, either of his own _ III
Berlioz, Symphonie Fantastique, Colin Davis, LSO _ I
DSCH, Sy.15, Sanderling, Erato _ I
DSCH, Sy.15, Kondrashin, Dresden, Profil
Bach, Concertos italiaens, Tharaud, Harmonia Mundi _ II
Scarlatti, Sonatas, Pletnev, Virgin _ I
Philip Glass, Einstein on the Beach, CBSAdams, Shaker Loops, Alsop, Naxos
Messiaen, Turangalila, Wit, Naxos
Brahms Piano Concertos, Gilels/Jochum, DG _ II
Brahms Piano Concertos, Fleisher/Szell, Sony _ I
Beethoven Piano Sonatas, Backhaus II, Decca _ I BOX
Stravinsky, Firebird, Boulez, DG _ II
Schoenberg: Pierre Boulez, Gurrelieder, Columbia _ I
Bruckner: Eugen Jochum, Symphony #7 / Complete Bruckner Symphonies, DG _ I
Tchaikovsky: Manfred Symphony, Toscanini, RCA _ I
Sibelius, Akeo Watanabe, Complete Symphonies, Epic _ I
Tchaik/Rachmaninoff, PC 1 & 2, Argerich, Philips _ I
Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto 2, Richter, DG _ II
Mahler, Das Knaben Wunderhorn, Szell, EMI _ I
Brahms Symphony 4, Kleiber, DG _ I
Yonder Came A Courteous Knight, Ravenscroft, by the Pro Cantione Antiqua _ I
Swing, Swing, Swing the 1938 broadcast _ I
Bach, GVs, Leonhardt, 1978, DHM _ I
Sibelius, Sy.No7, HvK, DG _ I
Rachmaninov: Piano Concerto, Byron Janis #3 RCA _ I
Tchaikovsky PC 1, Rachmaninoff PC 2; Cliburn, Kondrashin/ReinerHummel/Piano Concertos 2&3 Hough _ I
Mozart Mass in C minor/Leppard _ I
Offenbach: Entre Nous _ I
Holst Military Suites for Band/Fennel _ I
Victoria The Victoria Collection, Christophers (Coro) _ I
North German organ music, Leonhardt (Sony/Vivarte) _ I
Buxtehude complete organ works, Harald Vogel (MDG) _ I
Bach Das wohltemperierte Clavier, Gilbert (DG/Archiv) _ I
Bach Brandenburg Concertos, Goebel (DG/Archiv) _ I
Bach Matthäus Passion, Leonhardt (Harmonia Mundi) _ I
Bach Matthäus Passion, Harnoncourt III (Harmonia Mundi) _ IBach organ works, Kooiman (Coronata) _ I
Bach Die Kunst der Fuge [organ] Rogg (EMI) _ I
Händel Water Music & Music For The Royal Fireworks, Gardiner (Philips) _ I
Mozart symphonies, Hogwood (Decca/l'Oiseau Lyre) _ I BOX
Mozart Figaro, Solti (Decca) _ I
Mozart Così, Klemperer (EMI) _ I
Mozart Zauberflöte, Klemperer (EMI) _ I
Schubert Complete Symphonies Immerseel (Columbia/Zig Zag) _ I BOX
Chopin Vladimir Tropp plays Chopin [a.o. Sonata no. 2] (Denon) _ I
Verdi, Rigoletto (Giulini) _ I
Mahler 2, Stokowski (RCA) _ I
Mahler 6, Barbirolli (EMI) _ I
Rachmaninov Vespers, Sweschnikow (EuroDisc) _ II
L. Andriessen, De Staat (De Leeuw) _ I
Beethoven Symphony No 3 'Eroica' E Kleiber/VPO _ I
Schoenberg: Kubelik, Gurrelieder, DG _ I
The Scarlatti Sonatas, Scott Ross, Erato BOX - 2
Bach Matthäus Passion, Mogens Wöldike (Vanguard/The Bach Guild)
Bach Goldberg Variations, Xhu Xiao-Mei (Mirare)
Beethoven Eroica symphony, Furtwängler, WP 1943 (EMI)Beethoven Eroica Symphony, Monteux, Concertgebouw Orchestra (Philips/Decca)
Beethoven Pastoral symphony: Walter, Columbia Symphony (Sony)
Beethoven Missa Solemnis: Bernstein, Concertgebouw (DGG)
Brahms symphony no 2: Abbado, BP (1969) (DGG)
Brahms symphony no 3: Walter, Columbia Symphony (Sony)
Bruckner: symphony no 5: Klemperer, New Philharmonia (EMI)
Bruckner: symphony no 6: Keilberth, BP (Teldec)
Bruckner: symphony no 8: Böhm, WP (DGG)
Liszt: Sonata in B minor, Krystian Zimerman, DG _ I
Faure: Requiem, Pavane . Durufle: Requiem, Philip Ledger, EMI _ I
Glass, 20 Piano Etudes, Batagov, Orange Mountain. _ I
Britten, War Requiem, Britten, Decca. _ I
Ravel/Debussy, Quartetto Italiano, Philips _ II
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 24, 2018, 08:14:48 AM
That would not be my criteria, which I guess is now obvious. But isn't that what this thread is revealing about all of us - we apply different criteria.
Exactly! ;D
♥ ♥ ♥
Very interesting comments from everybody. I think we're advancing :).
A list of « best ever » arrived at consensually will automatically discard niche works or composers, for the simple reason that most people have never heard them, or would not consider repeating the experience. We'll then be « stuck » with a list of the same old usual suspects. Well, I think they still deserve their day at court, or their 15 minutes of fame, or whatever you choose to call it.
In that respect, I've restricted myself to « the 4 B », « the 5 S », and intend next to go for « the 4 M » (and no, that won't include Magnard, Milhaud, Massenet or even Martinu - sorry John :D). They will be composers everybody listens to at least once in a while. Even with that selective a list, it will be easy to get to 100.
NB: I left out Berlioz from the « B » selection. They should be 5, not 4. My bad. I'll rectify that eventually
Quote from: André on April 24, 2018, 08:33:55 AM
« the 4 M » (and no, that won't include Magnard, Milhaud, Massenet or even Martinu - sorry John :D).
Martin, Messiaen, Mompou & Mussorgsky? ;)
I have nothing meaningful I could add to this thread as I never bought into the whole concept of what's the 'greatest', because, even with this kind of thinking, it'll end up boiling down to subjectivity, so I could pick favorite individual recordings, but don't really think any of them would be on anyone's short list of 'greatest recordings'. I don't really listen to the 'mainstream' composers like Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms, etc., so this alone probably puts me in the minority.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 24, 2018, 08:57:37 AM
I have nothing meaningful I could add to this thread as I never bought into the whole concept of what's the 'greatest', because, even with this kind of thinking, it'll end up boiling down to subjectivity, so I could pick favorite individual recordings, but don't really think any of them would be on anyone's short list of 'greatest recordings'. I don't really listen to the 'mainstream' composers like Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms, etc., so this alone probably puts me in the minority.
Oh, you're doing fine with the Debussy-listening and championing Jacobs' as one of the great recordings of his music. You belong here more than you might think. In any case I hope you are not feeling unwelcome. Even those who don't like to buy into the "Greatest" thing (though we all kind of have our own idea of what it might be) may participate here.
Quote from: aukhawk on April 24, 2018, 09:35:48 AM
Talking of Debussy - what of the Quartetto Italiano Debussy/Ravel quartets coupling? Up there, I think.
Well your comments prompted me to buy a copy - I don't like that symphony very much and so I figured a 'wrong' recording might be just what I needed - I had a listen last night, and yes, that worked. ;)
My nominations -
DSCH, Cello Concerto, Rostropovich/Ormandy CBS. Premiere recording, and still not been bettered. ***
Glass, 20 Piano Etudes, Batagov, Orange Mountain. A live recording of a recital given in Moscow in celebration of the composer's 80th birthday.
Britten, War Requiem, Britten, Decca. Premiere recording featuring the three soloists (one English, one German, one Russian) it was written for.
*** I see you've already got this listed, but as a strange coupling - two separate recordings surely.
It is a fairly common CD-age coupling. I wouldn't want to list it seperately and have copies cannibalize each other. But yes, the coupling issue is tricky. Is the original the great recording or did it attain that status as a CD or re-issue...
Talking of Debussy - what of the Quartetto Italiano Debussy/Ravel quartets coupling? Up there, I think.
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 24, 2018, 08:21:23 AM
You're talking about my discussion of Karajan's Mahler? I tried to shy away from evaluating the recording as good or bad. I merely wanted to show how it was not an accurate representation of what Mahler wrote. That's how the discussion started and I tried to keep it as objective as possible.
Well your comments prompted me to buy a copy - I don't like that symphony very much and so I figured a 'wrong' recording might be just what I needed - I had a listen last night, and yes, that worked. ;)
My nominations -
DSCH, Cello Concerto, Rostropovich/Ormandy CBS. Premiere recording, and still not been bettered. ***
Glass, 20 Piano Etudes, Batagov, Orange Mountain. A live recording of a recital given in Moscow in celebration of the composer's 80th birthday.
Britten, War Requiem, Britten, Decca. Premiere recording featuring the three soloists (one English, one German, one Russian) it was written for.
*** I see you've already got this listed, but as a strange coupling - two separate recordings surely.
Quote from: aukhawk on April 24, 2018, 09:35:48 AMWell your comments prompted me to buy a copy - I don't like that symphony very much and so I figured a 'wrong' recording might be just what I needed - I had a listen last night, and yes, that worked. ;)
I've long thought of it as Mahler's Sixth for people who don't like Mahler's Sixth. If that's your thing, go for it, and I have no intention of saying you can't enjoy it all you want, but just realize that it's not the music Mahler wrote.
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 24, 2018, 09:42:39 AM
I've long thought of it as Mahler's Sixth for people who don't like Mahler's Sixth. If that's your thing, go for it, and I have no intention of saying you can't enjoy it all you want, but just realize that it's not the music Mahler wrote.
It's better! :)
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 24, 2018, 09:45:52 AM
It's better! :)
Please go into that thread and explain how his changes to the score improve the work, then.
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 24, 2018, 09:48:26 AM
Please go into that thread and explain how his changes to the score improve the work, then.
There is this concept, called a joke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke)
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 24, 2018, 09:51:35 AM
There is this concept, called a joke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke)
Yes, there is. And I didn't expect you to detail why Karajan's Sixth is better than Mahler's score...it's called a retort.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 24, 2018, 09:45:52 AM
It's better! :)
Since there are an infinite number of varieties of combing articulation, dynamics, phrasing and tempo gradations - the composer's indications are just one way to play the music. Mahlerian is saying that Mahler's interpretation of his score is the primary one to consider and carries more weight than any other's. But the bottom line is that a conductor is an artist as well, has every right to hear the music as he thinks it should go, and perform it that way.
I've said before that the performer and composer stand on equal footing regarding any piece of music: The performer has nothing to play without the composer's creation, but the composer has nothing but a silent score without the performer.
TD:
Rach II, Richter, Karajan (DG)
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 24, 2018, 09:51:35 AM
There is this concept, called a joke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke)
I'm sorry but Mahler's 6th is not a joke! Not even the way Karajan tells it.
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 24, 2018, 09:48:26 AM
Please go into that thread and explain how his changes to the score improve the work, then.
Scarpia (nor any of us) does not need to "explain how his changes to the score improve the work". Karajan is the one to ask. All I need to explain is that Karajan has the right to play the music as he sees fit.
Quote from: San Antone on April 24, 2018, 09:55:56 AMScarpia (nor any of us) does not need to "explain how his changes to the score improve the work". Karajan is the one to ask. All I need to explain is that Karajan has the right to play the music as he sees fit.
When have I said that Karajan should not have that right?
Karajan had a right to do whatever he wanted. He could have arranged Mahler's work for a chorus of 40 kazoos for all I care.
SurprisedbyBeauty: I'm sorry I butted in on your thread, and I wish I could contribute, but I just don't feel like I have a meaningful way of judging what the greatest recordings of all time are beyond what I like, and that would be limited by what I've listened to.
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 24, 2018, 09:59:25 AM
SurprisedbyBeauty: ... I just don't feel like I have a meaningful way of judging what the greatest recordings of all time are beyond what I like, and that would be limited by what I've listened to.
It should well be limited to what you've listened to. A recording can't be "great" by any stretch of my imagination, if only very few people have heard it. (Not in a reasonably free, functioning market.) So our limitations of exposure are already a meaningful contribution.
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 24, 2018, 09:59:25 AM
When have I said that Karajan should not have that right?
Karajan had a right to do whatever he wanted. He could have arranged Mahler's work for a chorus of 40 kazoos for all I care.
Please, aukhawk mentioned that Karajan's M6 allowed him to enjoy the work more than he had in the past and you brought out you back-handed put-down, "but just realize that it's not the music Mahler wrote." Effectively, "you may think you enjoy Mahler, but you only enjoy Karajan's corrupted Mahler, with the counterpoint suppressed, simplified for half-wits."
You may call yourself Mahlerian, you may have Mahler's picture as your avatar, but you don't speak for Mahler. For all you know, if Mahler had heard Karajan's performance, he might have broke down, weeping, "finally someone understands my music!" I don't claim it's true, but you have no valid argument that it's not true.
Now I'm having a warm feeling, imaging Mahler begging to kiss Karajan's feet. Karajan would have loved that. :)
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 24, 2018, 10:26:10 AM
Please, aukhawk mentioned that Karajan's M6 allowed him to enjoy the work more than he had in the past and you brought out you back-handed put-down, "but just realize that it's not the music Mahler wrote." Effectively, "you may think you enjoy Mahler, but you only enjoy Karajan's corrupted Mahler, with the counterpoint suppressed, simplified for half-wits."
You may call yourself Mahlerian, you may have Mahler's picture as your avatar, but you don't speak for Mahler. For all you know, if Mahler had heard Karajan's performance, he might have broke down, weeping, "finally someone understands my music!" I don't claim it's true, but you have no valid argument that it's not true.
Now I'm having a warm feeling, imaging Mahler begging to kiss Karajan's feet. Karajan would have loved that. :)
This is probably a
good conversation to have in the
Silly Karajan thread that was formed for, among other things, that purpose, no?
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 24, 2018, 10:26:10 AMPlease, aukhawk mentioned that Karajan's M6 allowed him to enjoy the work more than he had in the past and you brought out you back-handed put-down, "but just realize that it's not the music Mahler wrote." Effectively, "you may think you enjoy Mahler, but you only enjoy Karajan's corrupted Mahler, with the counterpoint suppressed, simplified for half-wits."
That's not what I said, nor is it what I meant. I didn't intend any insult, and I was merely agreeing with Aukhawk that Karajan's Sixth may have something to offer people who don't like Mahler's text when rendered faithfully.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 24, 2018, 10:26:10 AMYou may call yourself Mahlerian, you may have Mahler's picture as your avatar, but you don't speak for Mahler.
I don't claim to, and I agree that I don't personally speak for Mahler. That's why I refer to Mahler's words and his scores in order to make any argument rather than relying on my personal perceptions, to allow him to speak for himself.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 24, 2018, 10:28:24 AM
This is probably a good conversation to have in the Silly Karajan thread that was formed for, among other things, that purpose, no?
No argument here. :)
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 24, 2018, 09:42:39 AM
I've long thought of it as Mahler's Sixth for people who don't like Mahler's Sixth. If that's your thing, go for it, and I have no intention of saying you can't enjoy it all you want, but just realize that it's not the music Mahler wrote.
I wonder if it's helpful to explore the identity of a work of art. When is a performance a performance of Mahler 6 and when is it something else? (I remember thinking the same thing about Lucas Foss's Art of Fugue)
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 24, 2018, 09:59:25 AM
SurprisedbyBeauty: I'm sorry I butted in on your thread, and I wish I could contribute, but I just don't feel like I have a meaningful way of judging what the greatest recordings of all time are beyond what I like, and that would be limited by what I've listened to.
It's as if there's a concept here which people bandy around as if they're succeeding in saying something meaningful, but they probably aren't saying anything at all, or just mouthing nonsense. Like talking about Mumbo Jumbo. Basically Jens' whole thing is based on meaningless hot air. It's not primarily that the procedure is useless, it's that the concepts are vacuous.
(I like these things which look as though they express a thought, an idea, but analysis reveals that they don't. )
Quote from: Mandryka on April 24, 2018, 10:42:19 AM
It's as if there's a concept here which people bandy around as if they're succeeding in saying something meaningful, but they probably aren't saying anything at all, or just mouthing nonsense. Like talking about Mumbo Jumbo. Basically Jens' whole thing is based on meaningless hot air. It's not primarily that the procedure is useless, it's that the concepts are vacuous.
(I like these things which look as though they express a thought, an idea, but analysis reveals that they don't. )
I would say that "greatest recording" is difficult to adress without a clear criteria: quality of the performance, impact on the public, impact on classical music community, etc.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 24, 2018, 10:42:19 AM
It's as if there's a concept here which people bandy around as if they're succeeding in saying something meaningful, but they probably aren't saying anything at all, or just mouthing nonsense. Like talking about Mumbo Jumbo. Basically Jens' whole thing is based on meaningless hot air. It's not primarily that the procedure is useless, it's that the concepts are vacuous.
(I like these things which look as though they express a thought, an idea, but analysis reveals that they don't. )
You're always most welcome to stop by here and take a dump on the thread. Don't worry a bit about it! I'm just surprised you're spending your time engaging here at all, though.
Incidentally I disgaree with you: We all know that the concept of "Greatest" this-or-that exists. Heck, there's even a whole line of recordings named after that concept. It is most unlikely that a concept is at once both "vacuous" and "real". And if there is an inherent tension between the one approach and the other fact, well, I happen to think that's of interest.
As with similar topics, I use these things as an impetus to check Great Recording X or Y or Z of which I am ignorant!
"Hmmm, so GMG Member #17* says this version of Poulenc's Concerto for Organ, Strings, and Timpani is THE GREATEST thing ever!" ??? :o
"I guess I should give that a listen!" 0:)
* And just WHO is GMG Member #17 ? 8) 0:)
From the list I'd choose Holst's The Planets, EMI, Boult.
In addition I'd add:
Bruckner: Symphony 9, Furtwangler
Honegger: Symphonie Liturgique, Karajan
Vaughan Williams: Symphony 6 LPO, Boult (Decca)
Hanson: Symphony 3, Koussevitsky
Quote from: North Star on April 24, 2018, 08:48:48 AM
Martin, Messiaen, Mompou & Mussorgsky? ;)
Hey ! 1 out of 4 ain't bad at all !! ;)
MahlerBarbirolli's 6th has already been mentioned, and deservedly so. An excellent Das Lied, 1st and 4th symphony too. My choices:
- Symphony 3: Horenstein, LSO (Unicorn)
- Symphony 9: Karajan II, BP (DGG). My personal favourite is Maderna's BBC recording, but it's a radio broadcast transcript, not a commercial release. A 9th has already been selected, but I can't find much to commend it, except maybe sentimental/historical circumstances. Musically it's fallible and sonically it's a non-starter.
- Orchestral 5 Rückert lieder: Forrester, Fricsay RIAS Orchestra (DGG).
Monteverdi. There is NONE in the list !! ???
- This 1958 recital by Deller and Marriner:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91pKTNA9iaL._SX522_.jpg)
- This other recital:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51a-wXSf6nL.jpg)
Mozart- Don Giovanni: Siepi, Krips (Decca)
- Requiem: Karl Richter, Munich Bach Orchestra, Telefunken
- Violin sonatas, Boskowsky, Kraus (EMI)
Mussorgsky- Boris Godunov: Christoff, Dobrowen (EMI)
Quote from: André on April 24, 2018, 01:31:46 PM
Hey ! 1 out of 4 ain't bad at all !! ;)
Mahler
Barbirolli's 6th has already been mentioned, and deservedly so. An excellent Das Lied, 1st and 4th symphony too. My choices:
- Symphony 3: Horenstein, LSO (Unicorn)
- Symphony 9: Karajan II, BP (DGG). My personal favourite is Maderna's BBC recording, but it's a radio broadcast transcript, not a commercial release. A 9th has already been selected, but I can't find much to commend it, except maybe sentimental/historical circumstances. Musically it's fallible and sonically it's a non-starter.
- Orchestral 5 Rückert lieder: Forrester, Fricsay RIAS Orchestra (DGG).
Monteverdi. There is NONE in the list !! ???
- This 1958 recital by Deller and Marriner:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91pKTNA9iaL._SX522_.jpg)
- This other recital:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51a-wXSf6nL.jpg)
Mozart
- Don Giovanni: Siepi, Krips (Decca)
- Requiem: Karl Richter, Munich Bach Orchestra, Telefunken
- Violin sonatas, Boskowsky, Kraus (EMI)
Mussorgsky
- Boris Godunov: Christoff, Dobrowen (EMI)
+1 for Dobrowen/Mussorgsky from me.
For Mahler I'd choose Klemperer's EMI recording of Symphony 9.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 24, 2018, 08:23:35 AM
Everyone gets to nominate 10 Recordings off the list or add their own. Whatever you think "great" is. Most meaningful. Changed recording history. Changed listening-history. Changed MY life. Sounds best. Greatest performance of most important work at the time...
To me the problem is, that quite a lot of the old venerated recordings, you list, have been surpassed several times. So I would pass most of these by, if I should name the recordings, I favor the most and for that reason think are the "greatest". The fact that eg. Casals' Bach cello suites set at the time of release (not facing any competition), was considered great and changed the history has only historical interest to day, when we are supplied with about 200 recordings of these works, a considerable part of these being more artistically satisfying than the Casals recordings..
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 24, 2018, 02:02:17 PM
To me the problem is, that quite a lot of the old venerated recordings, you list, have been surpassed several times. So I would pass most of these by, if I should name the recordings, I favor the most and for that reason think are the "greatest". The fact that eg. Casals' Bach cello suites set at the time of release (not facing any competition), was considered great and changed the history has only historical interest to day, when we are supplied with about 200 recordings of these works, a considerable part of these being more artistically satisfying than the Casals recordings..
I feel the same way -- and how does one compare Casals to Fournier to Wispelwey to Arnau Tomàs, for example? We always circle around the question of what "great" really means. "Great in its time" "Greaty beyond its time" "Subjectively Best"...
Is it possible to find a recording the "Greatest", but not the "best"?
I think if I trim this list and bring it in order, I shall list a contender for golden-timey 'greatness' next to a viable modern candidate.
And maybe we can then play "brackets" within groups.
Someone mentioned
Deller; I'd been waiting for a mention. Clearly someone who pushed music-appreciation a good few steps forward with his recordings. I'll add the most recent suggestions to a new list tomorrow.
In addition I would say that 'a recording' is an integral of three parts - the music, the interpretation/performance, the technical recording element - and personally I don't separate them.
So to be a 'great' recording IMHO it must satisfy at least 2 of the following, and the 3rd only a notch behind at most:
* the music itself is 'great' or very nearly so (and in my book 'great' is a very big word, most composers only manage 'great' once or twice)
* the interpretation/performance is 'great' or very nearly so (by the standards of the recording date)
* the technical recording quality is 'great' or very nearly so (by the standards of the recording date)
So for example DSCH Cello Concerto (1) Rostropovich/Ormandy/CBS easily qualifies by those criteria, plus there is added historical significance.
Casals/Bach too, but in that case there is clearly a big problem in that the recording has been superseded many times since. Here the history trumps almost everything.
Quote from: aukhawk on April 24, 2018, 02:52:15 PM
In addition I would say that 'a recording' is an integral of three parts - the music, the interpretation/performance, the technical recording element - and personally I don't separate them.
So to be a 'great' recording IMHO it must satisfy at least 2 of the following, and the 3rd only a notch behind at most:
* the music itself is 'great' or very nearly so (and in my book 'great' is a very big word, most composers only manage 'great' once or twice)
* the interpretation/performance is 'great' or very nearly so (by the standards of the recording date)
* the technical recording quality is 'great' or very nearly so (by the standards of the recording date)
So for example DSCH Cello Concerto (1) Rostropovich/Ormandy/CBS easily qualifies by those criteria, plus there is added historical significance.
Casals/Bach too, but in that case there is clearly a big problem in that the recording has been superseded many times since. Here the history trumps almost everything.
I think that's an excellent codification of what makes a great recording.
Also: Did the recording make people talk about 'around the water cooler'? Did it have a cultural impact? (I really don't like that word but is there a more fitting one? Are, were, will people still talk(ing) about it ten, twenty, thirty, fifty years after its making? Did it change the perception of a composer? Did it change the interpretative history? Or the reception of the same repertoire? (I.e. did it become the recording 'to measure all others against'?)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 24, 2018, 02:58:07 PM
I think that's an excellent codification of what makes a great recording.
Also: Did the recording make people talk about 'around the water cooler'? Did it have a cultural impact? (I really don't like that word but is there a more fitting one? Are, were, will people still talk(ing) about it ten, twenty, thirty, fifty years after its making? Did it change the perception of a composer? Did it change the interpretative history? Or the reception of the same repertoire? (I.e. did it become the recording 'to measure all others against'?)
This is more-or-less the same as my comment, which you brushed off earlier.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 24, 2018, 07:47:27 AM
Regarding my comments on Scarlati, I think if you are going to claim something is the greatest recording ever made, it has to be something monumental, that changed the business of making recordings and changed the way people listen to music. Probably it should be of a monumental piece of music, like Beethoven's 9th and something that many people have heard. Something like a Furtwangler wartime recording of the 9th, Van Cliburn's recording after winning the competition in Moscow, Dorati's 1812 Overture, Gould's Goldbergs. Exquisite though they may be, to suggest a series of recordings of harpsichord music that maybe sold 800 copies strikes me as crazy.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 24, 2018, 08:11:53 AM
It is not performance, it is recording. After Toscanini recorded Beethoven millions of people who had never heard it before heard it, or heard it a new way. After Casals recorded Bach's suites, music which was utterly obscure became widely known. This should not be about who got the tempo just right in the andante. It should be about what classical recording had the biggest impact on the world. Aren't you tired of endlessly fussing about what recording got this or that little detail right?
The claim that Casal's recording of the Bach Suites as been
superseded by 200 subsequent recordings makes no sense to me. Those 200 recordings, except for a few, are vanity projects, some hardly distinguishable from each other. Casals took obscure works that were consider bone dry academic exercises, only included in the Bach edition out of a duty to completeness, and breathed life into them. That is a great recording that changed music.
The difference between Pablo Casals and Pieter Wispelwey is that Casals was a genius and Wispelwey is a guy that plays the cello very nicely.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 24, 2018, 03:18:01 PMThe claim that Casal's recording of the Bach Suites as been superseded by 200 subsequent recordings makes no sense to me. Those 200 recordings, except for a few, are vanity projects, some hardly distinguishable from each other. Casals took obscure works that were consider bone dry academic exercises, only included in the Bach edition out of a duty to completeness, and breathed life into them. That is a great recording that changed music.
The difference between Pablo Casals and Pieter Wispelwey is that Casals was a genius and Wispelwey is a guy that plays the cello very nicely.
I'm not going to comment on Casals vs. Wispelwey, but I consider the premise that Casal's Bach Cello Suites has been supplanted by many other subsequent recordings to be ridiculous.
Quote from: Sammy on April 24, 2018, 04:17:33 PM
I'm not going to comment on Casals vs. Wispelwey, but I consider the premise that Casal's Bach Cello Suites has been supplanted by many other subsequent recordings to be ridiculous.
Supplanted is the wrong word. Surpassed is le mot juste.
Surpassed is ok. As long as it took many attempts and many years to have it universally considered surpassed. Longevity is a key ingredient. Meteoric fame will not do.
Some interpreters were not just geniuses, they were also pioneers (Gould, Callas, Deller, Casals). Some of their recorded performances may have been surpassed, but they were the first there and held their place for a long time.
Quote from: André on April 24, 2018, 06:51:54 PM
Surpassed is ok. As long as it took many attempts and many years to have it universally considered surpassed. Longevity is a key ingredient. Meteoric fame will not do.
Some interpreters were not just geniuses, they were also pioneers (Gould, Callas, Deller, Casals). Some of their recorded performances may have been surpassed, but they were the first there and held their place for a long time.
Yes. I would call Gould's 1955 Goldbergs epochal. There are many now I think better, but it held a special place for a generation. Same with the Casals Bach. Deller was almost the only one for a decade and his stuff is still great (although the voice is nowhere near the best more modern counters).
I would walk a mile to get away from a Callas recording, but I agree she was epochal too. (I just have no idea why.)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 24, 2018, 09:00:24 AM
Oh, you're doing fine with the Debussy-listening and championing Jacobs' as one of the great recordings of his music. You belong here more than you might think. In any case I hope you are not feeling unwelcome. Even those who don't like to buy into the "Greatest" thing (though we all kind of have our own idea of what it might be) may participate here.
Thanks, Jens. 8) I suppose if I nominate anything, it'd be this recording and this is only because it had a tremendous effect on me before I started to seriously get into classical music:
(https://img.discogs.com/H3TnZsW6r69eUJWaPasmZbTcFco=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3051443-1313434202.jpeg.jpg)
Quote from: Ken B on April 24, 2018, 07:09:30 PM
Yes. I would call Gould's 1955 Goldbergs epochal. There are many now I think better, but it held a special place for a generation. Same with the Casals Bach. Deller was almost the only one for a decade and his stuff is still great (although the voice is nowhere near the best more modern counters).
I would walk a mile to get away from a Callas recording, but I agree she was epochal too. (I just have no idea why.)
It sounds like you're saying that large volume sales is a factor - that (e.g.) That the Casals Bach is great because lots of people bought it and used to listen to it with pleasure. I don't know if you're saying large sales is a necassary or a sufficient condition or both or neither. Maybe marketing is an ingredient in all of this.
Is The Three Tenors on the list? I mean it sold a lot and introduced some people to the music - probably more so than anything Callas ever recorded. Liberace? And Swingle Singers stuff . . .
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 24, 2018, 03:18:01 PM
This is more-or-less the same as my comment, which you brushed off earlier.
The claim that Casal's recording of the Bach Suites as been superseded by 200 subsequent recordings makes no sense to me. Those 200 recordings, except for a few, are vanity projects, some hardly distinguishable from each other. Casals took obscure works that were consider bone dry academic exercises, only included in the Bach edition out of a duty to completeness, and breathed life into them. That is a great recording that changed music.
The difference between Pablo Casals and Pieter Wispelwey is that Casals was a genius and Wispelwey is a guy that plays the cello very nicely.
This simply advances your criteria over others. And as often happens in these sorts of things, the newer generation is not able to 'break into' the ranks of those who came before (at least, not easily). Modern artists will always be disadvantaged if we frame it the way you have. For me, greatest does not mean historically important or first ever recording. In fact, quite the opposite, we should divest the recording of its historical baggage. In any case, I'm sure others have their own views as well, and I'd be interested to hear them (I find this more interesting than choosing the recording itself!). :)
List of possible candidates for inclusion in a poll about "Greatest Recording Ever Made"
Now sorted by composer so that we may perhaps start bracketing to whittle things down.
Bach
Bach, Matthew Passion, Klemperer, EMI _ I / -2
Bach Matthäus Passion, Leonhardt (Harmonia Mundi) _ I
Bach Matthäus Passion, Harnoncourt III (Harmonia Mundi) _ I
Bach Matthäus Passion, Mogens Wöldike (Vanguard/The Bach Guild)
Bach, Mass in B Minor, Gardiner, Archiv _ III
Bach, Christmas Oratorio, Karl Richter, Archiv
Bach, Orchestral Suites, Harnoncourt, Teldec
Bach Goldberg Variations, Xhu Xiao-Mei (Mirare)
Bach, Goldberg Variations, Leonhardt, 1978, DHM _ I
Bach Goldberg Variations, Glenn Gould, Columbia _ III
Bach, Concertos italiaens, Tharaud, Harmonia Mundi _ II
Bach, Sonatas & Partitas, Milstein, DG _ I
Bach, Cello Suites, Casals, EMI _ I
Bach, Cello Suites, Fournier, DG
Bach, Organ Works, Karl Richter, DG
Bach, Organ works, Kooiman (Coronata) _ I
Bach Die Kunst der Fuge [organ] Rogg (EMI) _ I
Bach Das wohltemperierte Clavier, Gilbert (DG/Archiv) _ I
Bach Brandenburg Concertos, Goebel (DG/Archiv) _ I
Beethoven
Beethoven, Violin Concerto, Kreisler/Blech EMI
Beethoven, Violin Concerto, Zehetmair, Brugen, Philips
Beethoven, Triple Concerto, Richter, Oistrakh, Slava, HvK, EMI
Beethoven Symphonies (alternatively: Eroica?), Karajan, 1963, DG _ I (BOX)
Beethoven Symphonies, Zinman, Tonhalle, Arte Nova _ -1
Beethoven Symphonies, Toscanini, RCA BOX _ -1
Beethoven Eroica Symphony, Furtwängler, WP 1943 (EMI)
Beethoven Eroica Symphony, Monteux, Concertgebouw Orchestra (Philips/Decca)
Beethoven Symphony No 3 'Eroica' E Kleiber/VPO _ I
Beethoven, Eroica Symphony, Gardienr, ORR, Archiv
Beethoven Pastoral symphony: Walter, Columbia Symphony (Sony)
Beethoven, Symphonies 5 & 7, Carlos Kleiber, DG _ IIII
Beethoven, LvB 7, NYP, Toscanini, RCA _ I
Beethoven, Symphony No.9, Furtwangler, Bayreuth, EMI
Beethoven, Symphony No.9, Fricsay, DG
Beethoven Missa Solemnis: Bernstein, Concertgebouw (DGG)
Beethoven Sonatas, Schnabel, EMI _ II BOX
Beethoven Piano Sonatas, Backhaus II, Decca _ I BOX
Beethoven, String Quartets, Busch Quartet, HMV/EMI/Warner
Brahms
Brahms Piano Concertos, Gilels/Jochum, DG _ II
Brahms Piano Concertos, Fleisher/Szell, Sony _ I
Brahms Symphony 4, Kleiber, DG _ I
Brahms Symphony no 2: Abbado, BP (1969) (DGG)
Brahms Symphony no 3: Walter, Columbia Symphony (Sony)
Brahms, PC 1, Rubinstein, Reiner, RCA
Bruckner
Bruckner 7, Vienna, Karajan, DG _ III
Bruckner: Eugen Jochum, Symphony #7 / Complete Bruckner Symphonies, DG _ I
Bruckner, Symphony no 5: Klemperer, New Philharmonia (EMI)
Bruckner,Symphony No.5, Celibidache, MPhil, EMI
Bruckner, Symphony no 6: Keilberth, BP (Teldec)
Bruckner, Symphony no 8: Böhm, WP (DGG)
Britten
Britten, Peter Grimes, Britten-Pears et al., Decca _ I
Britten, Peter Grimes, Davis, Vickers, Philips _ I
Britten, War Requiem, Britten, Decca. _ I
Mozart
Mozart, Figaro, E.Kleiber, Decca _ III
Mozart, Horn Concertos, Brian, EMI _ III
Mozart, Clarinet Concerto, Pay/Hogwood, Decca
Mozart Mass in C minor/Leppard _ I
Mozart, Symphonies, Hogwood (Decca/l'Oiseau Lyre) _ I BOX
Mozart Figaro, Solti (Decca) _ I
Mozart Così, Klemperer (EMI) _ I
Mozart Zauberflöte, Klemperer (EMI) _ I
Mozart, Requiem, Harnoncourt, DHM
Mozart, Requiem, Boehm, DG
Schubert
Schubert String Quintet, Prades (Casals/Tortelier)
Schubert, Death & Maiden, Amadeus Quartet, DG _ I
Schubert Complete Symphonies Immerseel (Columbia/Zig Zag) _ I BOX
Schubert, Schoene Muellerin, Fischer-Dieskau, Moore, EMI
Schubert, Winterreise, Fischer-Dieskau, Demus, DG _ II
Shostakovich & Prokofiev
Prokofiev Piano Sonata 8 et al, S.Richter, DG
DSCH, VC & CC, Oistrahk, Rostropovich, CBS _ I
DSCH, Sy.5, Bernstein (Tokyo), Sony
DSCH, Sy.8, Kondrashin, (?)
DSCH, Sy.15, Sanderling, Erato _ I
DSCH, Sy.15, Kondrashin, Dresden, Profil
Stravinsky
Stravinsky: Rite of the Spring, Lenny, Sony (1958)
Stravinsky: Rite of the Spring, Gergiev, Philips
Stravinsky: Rite of the Spring, Stravinsky, either of his own _ III
Stravinsky, Firebird, Boulez, DG _ II
Tchaikovsky & Rachmaninoff
Tchaikovsky, PC1, Horowitz/Toscanini, RCA
Tchaikovsky, Sys. 4-6, Mravinsky, DG _ IIIII
Tchaikovsky: Manfred Symphony, Toscanini, RCA _ I
Tchaikovsky/Rachmaninoff, PC 1 & 2, Argerich, Philips _ I
Tchaikovsky PC 1, Rachmaninoff PC 2; Cliburn, Kondrashin/Reiner _ I
Rachmaninov Vespers, Sweschnikow (EuroDisc) _ II
Rachmaninoff/Stokowski, 2nd PC, RCA
Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto 2, Richter, DG _ III
Rachmaninov: Piano Concerto, Byron Janis #3 RCA _ I
Verdi & Wagner
Verdi, Otello, Domingo et al., Maazel, EMI _ I
Verdi, Traviata, Gheorghiu, Solti, Decca
Verdi, Rigoletto (Giulini) _ I
Verdi, Falstaff, Toscanini, RCA _ I
Wagner, T&I, Furtwangler, EMI _ II
Wagner, Ring, Solti, Decca_ IIIII BOX
Other
Yonder Came A Courteous Knight, Ravenscroft, by the Pro Cantione Antiqua _ I
Victoria The Victoria Collection, Christophers (Coro) _ I
North German organ music, Leonhardt (Sony/Vivarte) _ I
Buxtehude complete organ works, Harald Vogel (MDG) _ I
Vivaldi Four Seasons, Marrinner, Decca _ I
Scarlatti, Sonatas, Pletnev, Virgin _ I
The Scarlatti Sonatas, Scott Ross, Erato BOX - 2
Händel Water Music & Music For The Royal Fireworks, Gardiner (Philips) _ I
Hummel/Piano Concertos 2&3 Hough _ I
Mendelssohn/Schumann Piano Trios, Cortot/Thibaud/Casals, EMI
Liszt: Sonata in B minor, Krystian Zimerman, DG _ I
Chopin Vladimir Tropp plays Chopin [a.o. Sonata no. 2] (Denon) _ I (bit obscure?)
Chopin Waltzes, Lipatti, EMI _ I
Berlioz, Symphonie Fantastique, Colin Davis, LSO _ I
Berlioz, Les Troyens, Davis, Philips _ I
Berlioz, Les Troyens, Davis, LSO Live
Dvorak, Sys, 8 & 9, Kubelik, DG _ I
Offenbach: Entre Nous _ I
Puccini, Tosca, Callas, de Sabata, EMI _ II
Faure: Requiem, Pavane . Durufle: Requiem, Philip Ledger, EMI _ I
Elgar, Cello Concerto, J.d.Pre, LSO, Barbirolli, EMI _ III
Holst Military Suites for Band/Fennel _ I
Holst, Planets, Boult, EMI _ I
Ravel, Daphnis & Chloe, Monteux, Decca _ I
Ravel/Debussy, Quartetto Italiano, Philips _ II
Debussy - Pelleas et Melisande, Roger Desormiere, EMI _ I
Schoenberg: Pierre Boulez, Gurrelieder, Columbia _ I
Schoenberg: Kubelik, Gurrelieder, DG _ I
Berg, Lulu, Boulez, DG _ I
Janacek, Katia Kabanova, Mackerras, Decca _ I
Janacek, Makropoulos, Mackerras, Decca _ I
Strauss, Four Last Songs, Schwarzkopf (OTTO or Szell?), EMI _ III
Bartok Cto. for Orchestra, Reiner, RCA _ I
Bartok PCs, Anda, Fricsay, DG _ II
Messiaen, Turangalila, Wit, Naxos
Glass, 20 Piano Etudes, Batagov, Orange Mountain. _ I
Philip Glass, Einstein on the Beach, CBS
L. Andriessen, De Staat (De Leeuw) _ I
Gorecki, Third Symphony, Upshaw/Zinam, Nonesuch _ I
Paert, Tabula Rasa, ECM _ IIII
Adams, Shaker Loops, Alsop, Naxos
Swing, Swing, Swing the 1938 broadcast _ I
The Three Tenors in Concert, Decca
Quote from: Mandryka on April 24, 2018, 10:25:21 PM
It sounds like you're saying that large volume sales is a factor - that (e.g.) That the Casals Bach is great because lots of people bought it and used to listen to it with pleasure. I don't know if you're saying large sales is a necassary or a sufficient condition or both or neither. Maybe marketing is an ingredient in all of this.
Is The Three Tenors on the list? I mean it sold a lot and introduced some people to the music - probably more so than anything Callas ever recorded. Liberace? And Swingle Singers stuff . . .
I think sales are indicative if not determinative. For starters, things sell for a reason. Also: If a lot of people heard it, the recording in question will have left a more considerable impression. It will have formed opinion, shaped the discussion, changed the perception. These may or may not be elements that go into one's idea of whatever "GREATEST" may mean. And what if a sensationally-sublime recording had been made, but no one ever heard it? Is that the reason why the non-Decca Keilberth Ring isn't in consideration, but Solti's is?
And yes, the Three Tenors are on the list. ;D (But you needen't vote for it. Determining what the best selling classical album was is a different matter and would be much easier. (Though still not easy, because then we'd get into the definition of what "classical" really means, in any narrow or specific sense.)
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 24, 2018, 10:38:31 PM
This simply advances your criteria over others. And as often happens in these sorts of things, the newer generation is not able to 'break into' the ranks of those who came before (at least, not easily). Modern artists will always be disadvantaged if we frame it the way you have. For me, greatest does not mean historically important or first ever recording. In fact, quite the opposite, we should divest the recording of its historical baggage. In any case, I'm sure others have their own views as well, and I'd be interested to hear them (I find this more interesting than choosing the recording itself!). :)
The journey is the goal. As a constant "there was no golden age" propagist, I agree that at the very least we ought to be aware of the historical 'baggage' and why it's there. But I also think that that baggage isn't worthless and doesn't come from nowhere. We're parsing through it here, I think.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 24, 2018, 03:18:01 PM
The claim that Casal's recording of the Bach Suites as been superseded by 200 subsequent recordings makes no sense to me. Those 200 recordings, except for a few, are vanity projects, some hardly distinguishable from each other. Casals took obscure works that were consider bone dry academic exercises, only included in the Bach edition out of a duty to completeness, and breathed life into them. That is a great recording that changed music.
I did not claim that all 200 have surpassed Casals' recording, but if you have heard more than 100 of these (as I have) you will know, that many of them do. Of course I do not want to detract from its historical importance, and I agree that it has some attractive elements, but the fact that lots of people have been imprinted with it long time ago and for that reason consider it the golden standard should not prevent others from looking upon it in an objective way and rate it against the competition in the way one rates every other recording of these works. If Casals' recording had been made to day (even in up to date sound) it would have drowned in the swirl of the competition.
If 'greatest' = 'most groundbreaking', then the Baron has a point.
If 'greatest' = 'best', then Il Premont is right.
The journey is the goal.
This is gonna be a traveling thread. :)
Just a few house-cleaning suggestions ...
Maybe consider using Arabic numerals? And single spacing the entries? What about alphabetizing the "other" selections?
0:)
If I am allowed another suggestion, then,
Debussy - Pelleas et Melisande, Roger Desormiere
The Keilberth Ring was not issued commercially until very late in the day, if I'm not mistaken. Therefore it never received wide distribution or mass marketing efforts. Only confirmed wagnerites are likely to look at it as a first or second choice. If there is a Ring thread, it will probably give the Solti a run for his money, but again, only confirmed wagnerians would have an opinion on the subject. Unless I'm wrong, this thread is more for general than specialized appraisal, non ?
@ Ken B: Callas made italian opera relevant again. Opera Lovers started paying attention to the (melo)drama taking place on stage. That was especially the case with bel canto repertoire, where her charisma drew the audience in like no other singer before her. Because of her, talented stage directors (Visconti, Zeffirelli) were attracted to the opera scene, and new singers (Caballé, Gencer, Sills) were able to develop their talent in the bel canto repertoire. It cannot be denied that a new era for italian opera opened in the 50s, and Callas was at its epicenter. Many listeners cannot go past the voice, which many find frankly unattractive - just like some piano lovers cannot go past Gould's humming or musical provocation (some of his Mozart or Beethoven sonatas for example).
Jens, you forgot a few entries: DSCH 5 (Lenny) and 8 (Kondrashin). Maybe some more, I didn't check everything. This is a wonderful thread for the insights we can share - as has been said, even mor fun than the actual list !
Quote from: André on April 25, 2018, 08:30:50 AM
The Keilberth Ring was not issued commercially until very late in the day, if I'm not mistaken. Therefore it never received wide distribution or mass marketing efforts. Only confirmed wagnerites are likely to look at it as a first or second choice. If there is a Ring thread, it will probably give the Solti a run for his money, but again, only confirmed wagnerians would have an opinion on the subject. Unless I'm wrong, this thread is more for general than specialized appraisal, non ?
@ Ken B: Callas made italian opera relevant again. Opera Lovers started paying attention to the (melo)drama taking place on stage. That was especially the case with bel canto repertoire, where her charisma drew the audience in like no other singer before her. Because of her, talented stage directors (Visconti, Zeffirelli) were attracted to the opera scene, and new singers (Caballé, Gencer, Sills) were able to develop their talent in the bel canto repertoire. It cannot be denied that a new era for italian opera opened in the 50s, and Callas was at its epicenter. Many listeners cannot go past the voice, which many find frankly unattractive - just like some piano lovers cannot go past Gould's humming or musical provocation (some of his Mozart or Beethoven sonatas for example).
Jens, you forgot a few entries: DSCH 5 (Lenny) and 8 (Kondrashin). Maybe some more, I didn't check everything. This is a wonderful thread for the insights we can share - as has been said, even mor fun than the actual list !
Yep, I cannot get past Callas's voice, especially the mile wide vibrato. I'd rather listen to a tape of Donald Trump rutting.
Quote from: (: premont :) on April 25, 2018, 01:39:17 AM
I did not claim that all 200 have surpassed Casals' recording, but if you have heard more than 100 of these (as I have) you will know, that many of them do. Of course I do not want to detract from its historical importance, and I agree that it has some attractive elements, but the fact that lots of people have been imprinted with it long time ago and for that reason consider it the golden standard should not prevent others from looking upon it in an objective way and rate it against the competition in the way one rates every other recording of these works. If Casals' recording had been made to day (even in up to date sound) it would have drowned in the swirl of the competition.
If Casal's recording had been made today there wouldn't be 200 competing versions. It wouldn't be the first because there would have to be one in the Teldec complete Bach and the another Hanssler complete Bach, so it would be the third recorded and the best. It would take at least another 5 years for the 200 versions to be produced. :)
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 25, 2018, 09:09:26 AM
If Casal's recording had been made today there wouldn't be 200 competing versions. It wouldn't be the first because there would have to be one in the Teldec complete Bach and the another Hanssler complete Bach, so it would be the third recorded and the best. It would take at least another 5 years for the 200 versions to be produced. :)
It seems to me, that you exaggerate Casals' importance. Well, he was the first, but during the first half of the 20th century musicians and musicologists were busy with a systematic revival of all Bach's works. Already in the early 1950es very comprehensive recordings of eg. his organ and harpsichord works were made, so also the cello suites were bound to become revived (even without Casals' efforts) maybe in the late 1940es or so. And several (>100) recordings would be made until now.
I first got to hear these suites through Casals, I remember thinking that the preludes were nice, and maybe some of the sarabandes, but the faster movements seemed as dull as ditchwater to me. It was only when I listened to other musicians that I strarted to see that these suites were really great music. I still have a soft spot for Casals in the prelude to BWV 1012, but much less so elsewhere.
I wouldn't underestimate the importance of the record companies' marketing here. The image of Casals playing on some improvised cello made with a gourd, or playing the Bach suites in toto in a café in Barcelona, his battle with arthritis, and of course his stand against Franco, these things all contribute to the mystique. These are the sort of things which make for good PR, which leads to the high sales volumes which some people think of an indicator, albeit a fallible one, of a "great" recording.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 25, 2018, 12:26:28 PM
I first got to hear these suites through Casals, I remember thinking that the preludes were nice, and maybe some of the sarabandes, but the faster movements seemed as dull as ditchwater to me. It was only when I listened to other musicians that I strarted to see that these suites were really great music. I still have a soft spot for Casals in the prelude to BWV 1012, but much less so elsewhere.
I wouldn't underestimate the importance of the record companies' marketing here. The image of Casals playing on some improvised cello made with a gourd, or playing the Bach suites in toto in a café in Barcelona, his battle with arthritis, and of course his stand against Franco, these things all contribute to the mystique. These are the sort of things which make for good PR, which leads to the high sales volumes which some people think of an indicator, albeit a fallible one, of a "great" recording.
Casals's recording was boring. Stravinsky nailed him for this I think. Anyway, count me in the anti-Casals faction.
Quote from: Ken B on April 25, 2018, 12:42:26 PM
Casals's recording was boring. Stravinsky nailed him for this I think. Anyway, count me in the anti-Casals faction.
I tend to agree that Casals' Suites are a
candidate for GROAT, on account of its trailblazing nature and status and original quality... but that it doesn't probably make the cut because it hasn't held up well enough in quality. (Sound quality as well as improvements in performance since, that have relativized its status.) I think it's a candidate to take off this list. (But it doesn't deserve to be the first recording thrown off this list, either.)
It was my first recording of the Suites, as well, but it was very quickly superceded by Fournier. (Though not by Rostropovich or Ma, for whatever that's worth.)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 25, 2018, 12:52:00 PM
I tend to agree that Casals' Suites are a candidate for GROAT, on account of its trailblazing nature and status and original quality... but that it doesn't probably make the cut because it hasn't held up well enough in quality. (Sound quality as well as improvements in performance since, that have relativized its status.) I think it's a candidate to take off this list. (But it doesn't deserve to be the first recording thrown off this list, either.)
It was my first recording of the Suites, as well, but it was very quickly superceded by Fournier. (Though not by Rostropovich or Ma, for whatever that's worth.)
Fournier was my favourite on vinyl for sure. Still might be, though Bylsma and some other HIP sets are great too.
Is any of the Klemperer Bach on the list? I think I saw an NCO who shall be nameless nominate his SMP, which is without doubt the worst recording ever made by a great musician. His Bburgs are merely very bad.
In our blind listening test of the Cello Suites a couple of years ago, Casals was 18th out of 30.
Fournier did very well I thought, coming 6th.
For the final result of that comparison see here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23936.msg886832.html#msg886832)
Quote from: Ken B on April 25, 2018, 08:56:06 AM
I'd rather listen to a tape of Donald Trump rutting.
What's unsettling is that such a thing may very well exist - possibly in multiple venues.
Anyway, I'm going to be boring and offer the Kleiber recording of Beethoven 5 & 7 as my choice. I'm pretty new to classical music compared to many others here but I've seen more consensus on this recording as "great" than on any other - and as we see on this forum every day, it's hard to get a consensus on
anything.
Actually, I think the greatest recording ever is Miles Davis'
Kind of Blue (with Robert Johnson's
King of the Delta Blues Singers possibly in the runner-up spot), but I can't shoehorn either of those into being "classical music" in any reasonable sense. :)
I am a little surprised to see the Solti Ring but not the Boulez. The Solti is of course groundbreaking (and the soloists are mostly fantastic which is just a bit more than can be said for the orchestra) but in terms of the overall musicianship including the orchestra, soloists, conductor, but also the quality of production I would surely expect the Boulez to top Solti. Even if we are just counting the audio recording.
Quote from: Alek Hidell on April 25, 2018, 06:51:49 PM
What's unsettling is that such a thing may very well exist - possibly in multiple venues.
Anyway, I'm going to be boring and offer the Kleiber recording of Beethoven 5 & 7 as my choice. I'm pretty new to classical music compared to many others here but I've seen more consensus on this recording as "great" than on any other - and as we see on this forum every day, it's hard to get a consensus on anything.
Actually, I think the greatest recording ever is Miles Davis' Kind of Blue (with Robert Johnson's King of the Delta Blues Singers possibly in the runner-up spot), but I can't shoehorn either of those into being "classical music" in any reasonable sense. :)
The Kleiber is a great one for sure. Especially for 5. But for 7 I like Cantelli.
Quote from: Ken B on April 25, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
Fournier was my favourite on vinyl for sure. Still might be, though Bylsma and some other HIP sets are great too.
Is any of the Klemperer Bach on the list? I think I saw an NCO who shall be nameless nominate his SMP, which is without doubt the worst recording ever made by a great musician. His Bburgs are merely very bad.
Klemperer's Matthäus was already in the first list, posted by Jens SuprisedByBeauty.
A pick which was kinda made ridiculous by yours truly, but another member, whose name is Premont ;)), had a few positive remarks about Otto's recordings of the Brandenburgs. He recorded them twice (Vox 1946 and EMI 1960).
jessop: I'll consider that a nomination, but I doubt it will go very far. I think that outside the production / video, the Boulez Ring is not that strong (and I actually like Jones and I love Zednik in the Rheingold). But what is certain is that as an audio recording, it never attained a particular following or cachet. I think that HvK's Ring and Boehm's Ring and even Barenboim's Ring would outshine it in a "GROAT" consideration such as this.
Klemperer Matthew Passion: Was among those recordings I put in the list copied from Hurwitz's. As I said, it's not my kind of Bach (although I'm listening to Minkowski's St. John Passion right now and that's falling off the other side of the cliff) but it certainly occupied a central position in the discography for a long time. It even comes with its own andecdote lore (Dieskau vs. Klemperer, "Bach appeared to me in a dream"). But I'm happy to give it two negative votes.
Kleiber - LvB Putting two votes down for that recording.
Rachmaninov play Rachmaninov (the concerti - that's for me as legendary as it gets)
Kleiber Brahms 4
Mravinsky Tchaikovsky 4, 5, 6 (stereo DG)
Michelangeli Debussy Preludes I
Francois / Cluytens Ravel Concerti
Pollini late Beethoven sonatas
Pogorelich Chopin Scherzi
Fricsay's Bartok on DG - CFO & MFSPC
Can I clarify that I am interesting in nominating the video recording of the Jahrhundertring?
Quote from: Draško on April 26, 2018, 04:06:52 AM
Mravinsky Tchaikovsky 4, 5, 6 (stereo DG)
Presumably these were recorded at separate sessions, and originally issued separately? Are they all equally meritious (I know the 6th has a very good reputation).
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 26, 2018, 12:35:36 AM
jessop: I'll consider that a nomination, but I doubt it will go very far. I think that outside the production / video, the Boulez Ring is not that strong (and I actually like Jones and I love Zednik in the Rheingold). But what is certain is that as an audio recording, it never attained a particular following or cachet. I think that HvK's Ring and Boehm's Ring and even Barenboim's Ring would outshine it in a "GROAT" consideration such as this.
The Boulez and Solti Ring Cycles were the ones I listened to first, and while I prefer the orchestral sound on the Boulez, I have to say that the Solti does have better singing generally.
But I think the Chereau production is very strong indeed.
Quote from: aukhawk on April 26, 2018, 05:39:12 AM
Presumably these were recorded at separate sessions, and originally issued separately? Are they all equally meritious (I know the 6th has a very good reputation).
Just like the Kleiber LvB 5+7. Recorded and released a few years apart, only recently joined at he hip on a single cd. The 7th has very different engineering, too. I guess we have to consider them as they are offered to us today. The Mrawinsky Tchaikovskys are on a double cd set, with the 5th occupying half of each disc.
Quote from: aukhawk on April 26, 2018, 05:39:12 AM
Presumably these were recorded at separate sessions, and originally issued separately? Are they all equally meritious (I know the 6th has a very good reputation).
If I recall correctly they were recorded in London when Mravinsky had taken the Lenningrad Philharmonic on tour in Europe. I don't know if they were issued as a set, but I think they were recorded as a distinct project.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 26, 2018, 06:12:18 AM
If I recall correctly they were recorded in London when Mravinsky had taken the Lenningrad Philharmonic on tour in Europe. I don't know if they were issued as a set, but I think they were recorded as a distinct project.
I have the DG Originals issue and the inside back page has the original covers - they were issued as three separate albums. The 4th was recorded in September 1960 in London and the 5th & 6th in November 1960 in Vienna.
Quote from: André on April 26, 2018, 06:04:41 AM
The Mrawinsky Tchaikovskys are on a double cd set, with the 5th occupying half of each disc.
Ugh! I went through the dickens of trouble (and expense) of getting these on three separate CDs. Finally succeeded in Japan. That one hurt (SHM-SACDs!) but I have to say that the joy of listening to these was very considerable. Whether in part because of the Japanese-Vodoo techniques or just because the recordings are so darn good, I can't say.
Quote from: jessop on April 26, 2018, 04:24:00 AM
Can I clarify that I am interesting in nominating the video recording of the Jahrhundertring?
I think it's the non-plus-ultra of Wagnerian stage productions -- or was, until the Herheim Parsifal came along. But the nomination is denied on grounds of only recordings being considered here. Sorry. ;)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 26, 2018, 07:12:57 AM
Ugh! I went through the dickens of trouble (and expense) of getting these on three separate CDs. Finally succeeded in Japan. That one hurt (SHM-SACDs!) but I have to say that the joy of listening to these was very considerable. Whether in part because of the Japanese-Vodoo techniques or just because the recordings are so darn good, I can't say.
I would have been prepared to pay extra for having the 5th on a disc by itself - I have other sets with the same irritating arrangement - but probably not Japanese prices.
Quote from: Biffo on April 26, 2018, 07:23:34 AM
I would have been prepared to pay extra for having the 5th on a disc by itself - I have other sets with the same irritating arrangement - but probably not Japanese prices.
If you rip them, you can do this fairly easily yourself without going through the expense of another order.
Quote from: Biffo on April 26, 2018, 07:23:34 AM
I would have been prepared to pay extra for having the 5th on a disc by itself - I have other sets with the same irritating arrangement - but probably not Japanese prices.
Here's your chance: Tchaik 5, Mravinsky (http://a-fwd.to/1amR1IN). The only one of the three that exists "only" as an SHM-CD. If that price doesn't seem reasonable, it will after you look at the SHM-SACD version (http://a-fwd.to/1CM21kV) of it. It's the one I ended up with, since I wasn't willing to splurge for the latter on all three, if I didn't have to. Not my favorite composer by a LONG stretch, but I must say that I almost didn't ever regret those purchases. ;)
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 26, 2018, 07:28:32 AM
If you rip them, you can do this fairly easily yourself without going through the expense of another order.
That's true... and yet it just doesn't feel right. Part of the joy - strangely, irrationally, industry-supportingly - for me is the act of putting the actual CD in the player... and it can't be a copy.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 26, 2018, 07:28:32 AM
If you rip them, you can do this fairly easily yourself without going through the expense of another order.
Probably laziness but I can't be bothered to rip CDs any more - I have done it in the past. I have numerous downloads and I don't have the strange obsession with owning something 'physical' but in this case I would prefer an individual CD though, in truth, it doesn't bother me too much.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 26, 2018, 07:33:04 AM
Here's your chance: Tchaik 5, Mravinsky (http://a-fwd.to/1amR1IN). The only one of the three that exists "only" as an SHM-CD. If that price doesn't seem reasonable, it will after you look at the SHM-SACD version (http://a-fwd.to/1CM21kV) of it. It's the one I ended up with, since I wasn't willing to splurge for the latter on all three, if I didn't have to. Not my favorite composer by a LONG stretch, but I must say that I almost didn't ever regret those purchases. ;)
Thanks for the tip - it is a reasonable price from Amazon UK marketplace but only one left. Will now have to make up my mind quickly. I have already ordered some discs today (Melos Ensemble & Mahler/Bernstein) so dithering about ordering more.
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 26, 2018, 05:40:31 AM
The Boulez and Solti Ring Cycles were the ones I listened to first, and while I prefer the orchestral sound on the Boulez, I have to say that the Solti does have better singing generally.
When you read Culshaw and the incredible lengths he went to to assemble the cast he wanted (never all at the same time of course, such luxury is recording) - I should hope so!
Question: what about music recorded as an 'edition' of complete works, as in Vänskä's Sibelius Edition on BIS? Does that count as a single nomination considering it's something of a complete musicological work in itself, groundbreaking in the fact that it is a publication of recorded works rather than just scores, or does each volume count as a single nomination?
I think for something to be notable as a 'Greatest Recording' it should be something that is out of the ordinary.........
Vänskä's disc of the original version of the 5th symphony certainly deserves mention (it's coupled with the familiar definitive version). As for the whole edition, I'm not convinced. What exactly had never been recorded before, and how important are these works ?
Quote from: jessop on April 26, 2018, 05:13:10 PM
Question: what about music recorded as an 'edition' of complete works, as in Vänskä's Sibelius Edition on BIS? Does that count as a single nomination considering it's something of a complete musicological work in itself, groundbreaking in the fact that it is a publication of recorded works rather than just scores, or does each volume count as a single nomination?
I think for something to be notable as a 'Greatest Recording' it should be something that is out of the ordinary.........
I nominate the DG catalogue.
Quote from: André on April 26, 2018, 05:21:59 PM
Vänskä's disc of the original version of the 5th symphony certainly deserves mention (it's coupled with the familiar definitive version). As for the whole edition, I'm not convinced. What exactly had never been recorded before, and how important are these works ?
I mean, the effort put into the publication as a great musicological and recording venture in its own right to create a definitive and complete catalogue of works by Sibelius to listen to. This is different to other complete recorded editions of a composer's work where existing recordings are cobbled together and a few minor works are recorded for the first time for the sake of completion.
Quote from: Ken B on April 26, 2018, 05:22:13 PM
I nominate the DG catalogue.
I don't quite understand what you're saying.....
Quote from: jessop on April 26, 2018, 06:51:17 PM
I don't quite understand what you're saying.....
Actually the entire Seon catalogue is available in a box. Why not it? Why not the complete Karajan?
Whatever "great recording" singular means it doesn't mean dozens of discs recorded over decades by scores of performers.
Quote from: Ken B on April 26, 2018, 07:17:19 PM
Actually the entire Seon catalogue is available in a box. Why not it? Why not the complete Karajan?
Whatever "great recording" singular means it doesn't mean dozens of discs recorded over decades by scores of performers.
Yeah that's what I am saying is different about the Sibelius Edition. It was put together with a completed edition in mind, overseen by Osmo Vanska and BIS, not entirely re-releases of heaps of recordings by various artists not intended for a project like it (although admittedly there are some older recordings in there). That's what makes the Sibelius Edition stand out as different and with a purpose to provide top notch performances by leading experts of Sibelius, hence why I asked. I don't know why you are bringing up the idea of an entire catalogue of unrelated recordings released by a record company because it is entirely irrelevant to the purpose of this thread as you have rightly mentioned. What are you trying to achieve by bringing it up in the first place?
Quote from: jessop on April 26, 2018, 08:38:12 PM
Yeah that's what I am saying is different about the Sibelius Edition. It was put together with a completed edition in mind, overseen by Osmo Vanska and BIS, not entirely re-releases of heaps of recordings by various artists not intended for a project like it (although admittedly there are some older recordings in there). That's what makes the Sibelius Edition stand out as different and with a purpose to provide top notch performances by leading experts of Sibelius, hence why I asked. I don't know why you are bringing up the idea of an entire catalogue of unrelated recordings released by a record company because it is entirely irrelevant to the purpose of this thread as you have rightly mentioned. What are you trying to achieve by bringing it up in the first place?
There's much to that -- and sometimes the line between "project" and "recording" is not clear. (We encounter that with the Ring... or any box set, already.) Alas, I think it really is another ballgame if we consider such projects as well... for one, we get "quantity" as a determinant. It doesn't quite fit the idea of "Great Recording" neatly enough. Otherwise, how could a Tchaik. 6th of Mravinsky or Kleiber Figaro or a Kleiber jr. Beethoven 5th possibly compete against the first complete Bach Cantata recording collection? Or all of Sibelius...
It seems to me that a 'recording' represents a single event (it isn't of course - Casals Bach was recorded over 3 years - but you get the illusion of a single event).
It seems reasonable to include a 'coupling' of two well-matched recordings (Quartetto Italiano Debussy/Ravel).
It is stretching things a bit more to include a 'set' of several well-matched recordings (Mravinsky Tchaikovsky 4-6) but one thing I have learned since first visiting this forum is that GMG-ers do like their box sets and integrals. ;D
Quote from: aukhawk on April 27, 2018, 12:08:46 AM
It seems to me that a 'recording' represents a single event (it isn't of course - Casals Bach was recorded over 3 years - but you get the illusion of a single event).
It seems reasonable to include a 'coupling' of two well-matched recordings (Quartetto Italiano Debussy/Ravel).
It is stretching things a bit more to include a 'set' of several well-matched recordings (Mravinsky Tchaikovsky 4-6) but one thing I have learned since first visiting this forum is that GMG-ers do like their box sets and integrals. ;D
The perception of a "Recording" has much to do with the marketing. If a recording was famous already in LP days, it might differ from a recording that became really famous only in CD days.
Karajan's '63 Beethoven cycle was so heavily promoted as a set, it appears to us as "a recording" by now. Ditto Solti's Ring. Two examples at the outer fringe of the dividing line. Or perhaps just outside.
FIRST POLL to whittle down the list: Please come vote early and often!
<Bruckner> (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28180.msg1145015.html#msg1145015)
Ah, tis a shame one of my favourite Bruckner conductors, Simone Young, didn't make it. But my other favourite, Jochum, did. So that's good. 8)
Just gonna quickly nominate that Répons recoding. Possibly notable for its technological innovations emulating three dimensional sound.
List of possible candidates for inclusion in a poll about "Greatest Recording Ever Made"
Now sorted by composer so that we may perhaps start bracketing to whittle things down.
Bach
Bach, Matthew Passion, Klemperer, EMI _ I / -2
Bach Matthäus Passion, Leonhardt (Harmonia Mundi) _ I
Bach Matthäus Passion, Harnoncourt III (Harmonia Mundi) _ I
Bach Matthäus Passion, Mogens Wöldike (Vanguard/The Bach Guild)
Bach, Mass in B Minor, Gardiner, Archiv _ III
Bach, Christmas Oratorio, Karl Richter, Archiv
Bach, Orchestral Suites, Harnoncourt, Teldec
Bach Goldberg Variations, Xhu Xiao-Mei (Mirare)
Bach, Goldberg Variations, Leonhardt, 1978, DHM _ I
Bach Goldberg Variations, Glenn Gould, Columbia _ III
Bach, Concertos italiaens, Tharaud, Harmonia Mundi _ II
Bach, Sonatas & Partitas, Milstein, DG _ I
Bach, Cello Suites, Casals, EMI _ I
Bach, Cello Suites, Fournier, DG
Bach, Organ Works, Karl Richter, DG
Bach, Organ works, Kooiman (Coronata) _ I
Bach Die Kunst der Fuge [organ] Rogg (EMI) _ I
Bach Das wohltemperierte Clavier, Gilbert (DG/Archiv) _ I
Bach Brandenburg Concertos, Goebel (DG/Archiv) _ I
Beethoven
Beethoven, Violin Concerto, Kreisler/Blech EMI
Beethoven, Violin Concerto, Zehetmair, Brugen, Philips
Beethoven, Triple Concerto, Richter, Oistrakh, Slava, HvK, EMI
Beethoven Symphonies (alternatively: Eroica?), Karajan, 1963, DG _ I (BOX)
Beethoven Symphonies, Zinman, Tonhalle, Arte Nova _ -1
Beethoven Symphonies, Toscanini, RCA BOX _ -1
Beethoven Eroica Symphony, Furtwängler, WP 1943 (EMI)
Beethoven Eroica Symphony, Monteux, Concertgebouw Orchestra (Philips/Decca)
Beethoven Symphony No 3 'Eroica' E Kleiber/VPO _ I
Beethoven, Eroica Symphony, Gardienr, ORR, Archiv
Beethoven Pastoral symphony: Walter, Columbia Symphony (Sony)
Beethoven, Symphonies 5 & 7, Carlos Kleiber, DG _ IIII
Beethoven, LvB 7, NYP, Toscanini, RCA _ I
Beethoven, Symphony No.9, Furtwangler, Bayreuth, EMI
Beethoven, Symphony No.9, Fricsay, DG
Beethoven Missa Solemnis: Bernstein, Concertgebouw (DGG)
Beethoven Sonatas, Schnabel, EMI _ II BOX
Beethoven Piano Sonatas, Backhaus II, Decca _ I BOX
Beethoven, String Quartets, Busch Quartet, HMV/EMI/Warner
Brahms
Brahms Piano Concertos, Gilels/Jochum, DG _ II
Brahms Piano Concertos, Fleisher/Szell, Sony _ I
Brahms Symphony 4, Kleiber, DG _ I
Brahms Symphony no 2: Abbado, BP (1969) (DGG)
Brahms Symphony no 3: Walter, Columbia Symphony (Sony)
Brahms, PC 1, Rubinstein, Reiner, RCA
Bruckner
Bruckner 7, Vienna, Karajan, DG _ IIII
Bruckner: Eugen Jochum, Symphony #7 / Complete Bruckner Symphonies, DG _ I
Bruckner, Symphony no 5: Klemperer, New Philharmonia (EMI) _ IIIII
Bruckner, Symphony No.5, Celibidache, MPhil, EMI _ III
Bruckner, Symphony no 6: Keilberth, BP (Teldec)
Bruckner, Symphony no 8: Böhm, WP (DGG) _ III
Bruckner 5, Jochum, RCO, "Ottobeuren", Philips_ IIIII
Bruckner 8, Wand, BPh, RCA_ III
Bruckner 9, Giulini, Vienna, DG_ IIIII I
Bruckner 9, Haitink II, RCO, Philips_ IIII
Britten
Britten, Peter Grimes, Britten-Pears et al., Decca _ I
Britten, Peter Grimes, Davis, Vickers, Philips _ I
Britten, War Requiem, Britten, Decca. _ I
Mozart
Mozart, Figaro, E.Kleiber, Decca _ III
Mozart, Horn Concertos, Brian, EMI _ III
Mozart, Clarinet Concerto, Pay/Hogwood, Decca
Mozart Mass in C minor/Leppard _ I
Mozart, Symphonies, Hogwood (Decca/l'Oiseau Lyre) _ I BOX
Mozart Figaro, Solti (Decca) _ I
Mozart Così, Klemperer (EMI) _ I
Mozart Zauberflöte, Klemperer (EMI) _ I
Mozart, Requiem, Harnoncourt, DHM
Mozart, Requiem, Boehm, DG
Schubert
Schubert String Quintet, Prades (Casals/Tortelier)
Schubert, Death & Maiden, Amadeus Quartet, DG _ I
Schubert Complete Symphonies Immerseel (Columbia/Zig Zag) _ I BOX
Schubert, Schoene Muellerin, Fischer-Dieskau, Moore, EMI
Schubert, Winterreise, Fischer-Dieskau, Demus, DG _ II
Shostakovich & Prokofiev
Prokofiev Piano Sonata 8 et al, S.Richter, DG
DSCH, VC & CC, Oistrahk, Rostropovich, CBS _ I
DSCH, Sy.5, Bernstein (Tokyo), Sony
DSCH, Sy.8, Kondrashin, (?)
DSCH, Sy.15, Sanderling, Erato _ I
DSCH, Sy.15, Kondrashin, Dresden, Profil
Stravinsky
Stravinsky: Rite of the Spring, Lenny, Sony (1958)
Stravinsky: Rite of the Spring, Gergiev, Philips
Stravinsky: Rite of the Spring, Stravinsky, either of his own _ III
Stravinsky, Firebird, Boulez, DG _ II
Tchaikovsky & Rachmaninoff
Tchaikovsky, PC1, Horowitz/Toscanini, RCA
Tchaikovsky, Sys. 4-6, Mravinsky, DG _ IIIII
Tchaikovsky: Manfred Symphony, Toscanini, RCA _ I
Tchaikovsky/Rachmaninoff, PC 1 & 2, Argerich, Philips _ I
Tchaikovsky PC 1, Rachmaninoff PC 2; Cliburn, Kondrashin/Reiner _ I
Rachmaninov Vespers, Sweschnikow (EuroDisc) _ II
Rachmaninoff/Stokowski, 2nd PC, RCA
Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto 2, Richter, DG _ III
Rachmaninov: Piano Concerto, Byron Janis #3 RCA _ I
Verdi & Wagner
Verdi, Otello, Domingo et al., Maazel, EMI _ I
Verdi, Traviata, Gheorghiu, Solti, Decca
Verdi, Rigoletto (Giulini) _ I
Verdi, Falstaff, Toscanini, RCA _ I
Wagner, T&I, Furtwangler, EMI _ II
Wagner, Ring, Solti, Decca_ IIIII BOX
Other
Yonder Came A Courteous Knight, Ravenscroft, by the Pro Cantione Antiqua _ I
Victoria The Victoria Collection, Christophers (Coro) _ I
North German organ music, Leonhardt (Sony/Vivarte) _ I
Buxtehude complete organ works, Harald Vogel (MDG) _ I
Vivaldi Four Seasons, Marrinner, Decca _ I
Scarlatti, Sonatas, Pletnev, Virgin _ I
The Scarlatti Sonatas, Scott Ross, Erato BOX - 2
Händel Water Music & Music For The Royal Fireworks, Gardiner (Philips) _ I
Hummel/Piano Concertos 2&3 Hough _ I
Mendelssohn/Schumann Piano Trios, Cortot/Thibaud/Casals, EMI
Liszt: Sonata in B minor, Krystian Zimerman, DG _ I
Chopin Vladimir Tropp plays Chopin [a.o. Sonata no. 2] (Denon) _ I (bit obscure?)
Chopin Waltzes, Lipatti, EMI _ I
Berlioz, Symphonie Fantastique, Colin Davis, LSO _ I
Berlioz, Les Troyens, Davis, Philips _ I
Berlioz, Les Troyens, Davis, LSO Live
Dvorak, Sys, 8 & 9, Kubelik, DG _ I
Offenbach: Entre Nous _ I
Puccini, Tosca, Callas, de Sabata, EMI _ II
Faure: Requiem, Pavane . Durufle: Requiem, Philip Ledger, EMI _ I
Elgar, Cello Concerto, J.d.Pre, LSO, Barbirolli, EMI _ III
Holst Military Suites for Band/Fennel _ I
Holst, Planets, Boult, EMI _ I
Ravel, Daphnis & Chloe, Monteux, Decca _ I
Ravel/Debussy, Quartetto Italiano, Philips _ II
Debussy - Pelleas et Melisande, Roger Desormiere, EMI _ I
Schoenberg: Pierre Boulez, Gurrelieder, Columbia _ I
Schoenberg: Kubelik, Gurrelieder, DG _ I
Berg, Lulu, Boulez, DG _ I
Janacek, Katia Kabanova, Mackerras, Decca _ I
Janacek, Makropoulos, Mackerras, Decca _ I
Strauss, Four Last Songs, Schwarzkopf (OTTO or Szell?), EMI _ III
Bartok Cto. for Orchestra, Reiner, RCA _ I
Bartok PCs, Anda, Fricsay, DG _ II
Messiaen, Turangalila, Wit, Naxos
Glass, 20 Piano Etudes, Batagov, Orange Mountain. _ I
Philip Glass, Einstein on the Beach, CBS
L. Andriessen, De Staat (De Leeuw) _ I
Gorecki, Third Symphony, Upshaw/Zinam, Nonesuch _ I
Paert, Tabula Rasa, ECM _ IIII
Adams, Shaker Loops, Alsop, Naxos
Boulez, Repons, DG
Swing, Swing, Swing the 1938 broadcast _ I
The Three Tenors in Concert, Decca
Great! Whittling down the Bruckner section has gotten rid of two entries and added two more. ;D Keep voting for more clarity! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28180.0.html)
Let's try another poll: SECOND POLL to whittle DOWN the list: Please come vote early and often! <MISC. RECORDINGS> (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28185.0.html)
Why eliminate Keilberth's Bruckner 6 ????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????? ???
Quote from: André on April 28, 2018, 03:53:35 AM
Why eliminate Keilberth's Bruckner 6 ????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????? ???
Because it got just 2 votes in the sub-poll that wanted to narrow down the Bruckner recording candidates.
Vox populi, sorry!
(Also: Out-of-printness is never a good sign for something that wants to have claims on being TGREM.)
It's NEVER been out of print.
Quote from: André on April 28, 2018, 07:53:16 AM
It's NEVER been out of print.
In Japan? In a box? I can't find a copy for a reasonable price. It seems quite obscure. We're talking about the Berlin Phil. 6th, right?
Exactly. Available both singly and as a box (EMI Icon) on Amazon. I first bought it as an lp, then as a cd. And I've always seen it available, never oop. But it's your game, so...
Quote from: André on April 28, 2018, 07:57:45 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 28, 2018, 07:55:00 AM
In Japan? In a box? I can't find a copy for a reasonable price. It seems quite obscure. We're talking about the Berlin Phil. 6th, right?
Exactly. Available both singly and as a box (EMI Icon) on Amazon. I first bought it as an lp, then as a cd. And I've always seen it available, never oop. But it's your game, so...
Could you send me in the direction of a (non-Japanese) in-print copy? I'm interested... but have only found imports or oop editions. :-( And I don't do box-sets, so the Icon edition is out of the question for me.)
(In any case, this didn't make the cut because of insufficient votes in the poll, not because of oop/ip status.)
Quote from: André on April 28, 2018, 08:33:34 AM
A great record's merits don't depend on their availability as 'new' on Amazon. Most of my purchases are from the used market. They were new at one point and I wasn't there to buy them at the time. So what ? What you buy new today will be oop next year. Does it become less valuable ?? I'm puzzled...
Forget "greatness"; that gets in the way. But a
popular recording is never out of print. I don't think there was any time where HvK's Beethoven Cycle wasn't in print, for example. Or Kleiber's 5th. Or perhaps even Casals' Bach. It's just an indicator of sales and/or importance the record companies bestow upon a release (though that's really only relating to sales, too, wouldn't it.)
Have you never heard of the phrase, in a review, for example, that interpretation XYZ "was never out of print" - as a sort of batch of honor?
On a practical matter: the secondary market, before Amazon was so popular, used to be much harder to access, so out-of-printness had much more meaning as to whether you could get your hands on something or not. Nowadays, it's much less meaningful; it might be available online or, as we've pointed out, on the secondary market.
I have the feeling you sense that I am in some way trying to be antagonistic... I'm not.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51M%2BjvROyQL.jpg)
And:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BJa5nBj0L.jpg)
Both available at Amazon.com:
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_4_11/134-6851704-5261059?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=bruckner+6+keilberth&sprefix=Bruckner+6+%2Caps%2C158&crid=ZPU9R7GUUF2O (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_4_11/134-6851704-5261059?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=bruckner+6+keilberth&sprefix=Bruckner+6+%2Caps%2C158&crid=ZPU9R7GUUF2O)
Boxes like the Icon series are precisely made for the express purpose of making available the recorded legacy of important artists from the past. Someone at Warner figured he was worth the tribute. 22 discs in all, including his Bruckner 6th and 9th (just as great IMO).
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81tcIKwgOWL._SL500_.jpg)
A great record's merits don't depend on their availability as 'new' on Amazon. Most of my purchases are from the used market. They were new at one point and I wasn't there to buy them at the time. So what ? What you buy new today will be oop next year. Does it become less valuable ?? I'm puzzled...
Quote from: André on April 28, 2018, 08:15:08 AM
Boxes like the Icon series are precisely made for the express purpose of making available the recorded legacy of important artists from the past.
They are just an attempt to generate new sales out of old material.
Creating supply to generate demand ?
This would have to be one of the silliest music threads I have ever come across.
Quote from: brunumb on April 28, 2018, 02:51:30 PM
This would have to be one of the silliest music threads I have ever come across.
I wouldn't call it a music thread tbh.....
Quote from: brunumb on April 28, 2018, 02:51:30 PM
This would have to be one of the silliest music threads I have ever come across.
You must be new here. We have FAR sillier threads in abundance.
I don't want to turn this into the Keilberth-Yes-or-No thread; I like him a lot, anyway, and you need not convince me of his merits.
But your links only show me what I found myself: Out of print copies (the non-Japanese copies are even more expensive in Europe, unfortunately) and a box-set.
Available, yes-ish, but not in print. I would have picked a copy up at the Shibuya Tower Records in May, but I had to cancel my trip... pity. If the prices come down on used copies I'll definitely snap one up, though, now that I'm intrigued.
The Third Poll has a wonderful 25 participants. Things are quite clear there.
The Fifth Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28210.0.html) and the Fourth Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28209.0.html) could still use a bit more participation to deobfuscate matters a bit.
Some good votin' there, folks. Thanks for it. Have been able to promote a few clear winners and cut a few clear under-achievers. Esp. from the Fifth Poll.
Here's the new, Seventh Poll! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=28227.0)
The Fourth Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28209.0.html) sees the following cuts:
Gone:
Beethoven, Toscanini, Symphony No.7, New York Phil (RCA, 1936)
Beethoven, Violin Concerto, Kreisler/Blech (EMI)
Bach Matthäus Passion, Leonhardt (Harmonia Mundi)
Bach Brandenburg Concertos, Goebel (DG/Archiv)
Mozart, Clarinet Concerto, Pay/Hogwood (Decca)
DSCH, Sy.8, Kondrashin, (Melodiya?)
Victoria The Victoria Collection, Christophers (Coro)
Still in the game:
Boulez, Repons (DG) (only three votes in this group but elsewhere it went through with flying colors)
Brahms Piano Concertos, Fleisher/Szel (Sony)
Britten, War Requiem, Britten (Decca) Group Winner
Schubert, Schoene Muellerin, Fischer-Dieskau, Moore (EMI) Barely managed to make it, just like
Rachmaninov: Piano Concerto, Byron Janis #3
Also: The Sixth Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28218.0.html) is still open, but this is the preliminary result -- some of which was more predictable than other polls so far have been:
Onto the next round, of course, are the
Bach Goldberg Variations, Glenn Gould, Columbia 12 (25%), ditto:
Rachmaninov Vespers, Sweschnikow (EuroDisc) 5 (10.4%) (bit of a surprise to me; out of print, to boot...)
Brahms Piano Concertos, Gilels/Jochum, DG 7 (14.6%)
Mozart, Don Giovanni, Giulini, EMI 4 (8.3%) barely hanging in there... same as:
Schoenberg: Pierre Boulez, Gurrelieder, Columbia 4 (8.3%) and
Bach, Mass in B Minor, Gardiner, Archiv 4 (8.3%) -- which is probably what one might call a 'modern classic'.
Good-bye to:
Buxtehude complete organ works, Harald Vogel, MDG 1 (2.1%)
Ravel, Daphnis & Chloe, Monteux, Decca 3 (6.3%)
Hummel/Piano Concertos 2&3 Hough, Chandos 2 (4.2%)
Mozart, Requiem, Boehm, DG 3 (6.3%)
DSCH, Sy.5, Bernstein (Tokyo), Sony 2 (4.2%)
Beethoven, Violin Concerto, Kreisler/Blech EMI 1 (2.1%)
List of possible candidates for inclusion in a poll about "Greatest Recording Ever Made"
Now sorted by composer so that we may perhaps start bracketing to whittle things down.
Bach
Bach, Matthew Passion, Klemperer, EMI _ I / -2
Bach Matthäus Passion, Leonhardt (Harmonia Mundi) _ I
Bach Matthäus Passion, Harnoncourt III (Harmonia Mundi) _ I
Bach Matthäus Passion, Mogens Wöldike (Vanguard/The Bach Guild)
Bach, Mass in B Minor, Gardiner, Archiv _ III
Bach, Christmas Oratorio, Karl Richter, Archiv
Bach, Orchestral Suites, Harnoncourt, Teldec
Bach Goldberg Variations, Xhu Xiao-Mei (Mirare)
Bach, Goldberg Variations, Leonhardt, 1978, DHM _ I
Bach Goldberg Variations, Glenn Gould, Columbia _ III
Bach, Concertos italiaens, Tharaud, Harmonia Mundi _ II
Bach, Sonatas & Partitas, Milstein, DG _ I
Bach, Cello Suites, Casals, EMI _ I
Bach, Cello Suites, Fournier, DG
Bach, Organ Works, Karl Richter, DG
Bach, Organ works, Kooiman (Coronata) _ I
Bach Die Kunst der Fuge [organ] Rogg (EMI) _ I
Bach Das wohltemperierte Clavier, Gilbert (DG/Archiv) _ I
Bach Brandenburg Concertos, Goebel (DG/Archiv) _ I
Beethoven
Beethoven, Violin Concerto, Kreisler/Blech EMI
Beethoven, Violin Concerto, Zehetmair, Brugen, Philips
Beethoven, Triple Concerto, Richter, Oistrakh, Slava, HvK, EMI
Beethoven Symphonies (alternatively: Eroica?), Karajan, 1963, DG _ I (BOX)
Beethoven Symphonies, Zinman, Tonhalle, Arte Nova _ -1
Beethoven Symphonies, Toscanini, RCA BOX _ -1
Beethoven Eroica Symphony, Furtwängler, WP 1943 (EMI)
Beethoven Eroica Symphony, Monteux, Concertgebouw Orchestra (Philips/Decca)
Beethoven Symphony No 3 'Eroica' E Kleiber/VPO _ I
Beethoven, Eroica Symphony, Gardienr, ORR, Archiv
Beethoven Pastoral symphony: Walter, Columbia Symphony (Sony)
Beethoven, Symphonies 5 & 7, Carlos Kleiber, DG[glow] _ IIIII IIIII
Beethoven, LvB 7, NYP, Toscanini, RCA _ I
Beethoven, Symphony No.9, Furtwangler, Bayreuth, EMI
Beethoven, Symphony No.9, Fricsay, DG
Beethoven Missa Solemnis: Bernstein, Concertgebouw (DGG)
Beethoven Sonatas, Schnabel, EMI _ II BOX
Beethoven Piano Sonatas, Backhaus II, Decca _ I BOX
Beethoven, String Quartets, Busch Quartet, HMV/EMI/Warner
Beethoven, Piano Concertos, Fleisher/Szell (CBS) _IIII (strange, though, that these have not been available as a (just-Beethoven) for such a long time. {I know of the combined Brahms/LvB set.})
Brahms
Brahms Piano Concertos, Gilels/Jochum, DG _ II
Brahms Piano Concertos, Fleisher/Szell, Sony _ I
Brahms Symphony 4, Kleiber, DG _ IIIII IIIII II
Brahms Symphony no 2: Abbado, BP (1969) (DGG)
Brahms Symphony no 3: Walter, Columbia Symphony (Sony)
Brahms, PC 1, Rubinstein, Reiner, RCA
Bruckner
Bruckner 7, Vienna, Karajan, DG _ IIII
Bruckner, Symphony no 5: Klemperer, New Philharmonia (EMI) _ IIIII
Bruckner 5, Jochum, RCO, "Ottobeuren", Philips_ IIIII
Bruckner 8, Wand, BPh, RCA_ III
Bruckner 9, Giulini, Vienna, DG_ IIIII I
Bruckner 9, Haitink II, RCO, Philips_ IIII
Britten
Britten, Peter Grimes, Britten-Pears et al., Decca _ I
Britten, Peter Grimes, Davis, Vickers, Philips _ I
Britten, War Requiem, Britten, Decca. _ I
Mozart
Mozart, Don Giovanni, Giulini, EMI
Mozart, Cosi fan tute, R.Jacobs, Harmonia Mundi
Mozart, Don Giovanni, R.Jaocbs, Harmonia Mundi
Mozart, Idomeneo, Gardiner, Archiv
Mozart, Figaro, E.Kleiber, Decca _ III
Mozart, Horn Concertos, Brian, EMI _ III
Mozart, Clarinet Concerto, Pay/Hogwood, Decca
Mozart Mass in C minor/Leppard _ I
Mozart, Symphonies, Hogwood (Decca/l'Oiseau Lyre) _ I BOX
Mozart Figaro, Solti (Decca) _ I
Mozart Figaro, Giulini (EMI) _ I
Mozart Così, Klemperer (EMI) _ I
Mozart Zauberflöte, Klemperer (EMI) _ I
Mozart, Requiem, Harnoncourt, DHM
Mozart, Requiem, Boehm, DG
Schubert
Schubert String Quintet, Prades (Casals/Tortelier)
Schubert, Death & Maiden, Amadeus Quartet, DG _ I
Schubert Complete Symphonies Immerseel (Columbia/Zig Zag) _ I BOX
Schubert, Schoene Muellerin, Fischer-Dieskau, Moore, EMI
Schubert, Winterreise, Fischer-Dieskau, Demus, DG _ II
Shostakovich & Prokofiev
Prokofiev Piano Sonata 8 et al, S.Richter, DG
DSCH, VC & CC, Oistrahk, Rostropovich, CBS _ I
DSCH, Sy.5, Bernstein (Tokyo), Sony
DSCH, Sy.8, Kondrashin, (?)
DSCH, Sy.15, Sanderling, Erato _ I
DSCH, Sy.15, Kondrashin, Dresden, Profil
Stravinsky
Stravinsky: Rite of the Spring, Lenny, Sony (1958)
Stravinsky: Rite of the Spring, Gergiev, Philips
Stravinsky: Rite of the Spring, Stravinsky, either of his own _ III
Stravinsky, Firebird, Boulez, DG _ II
Tchaikovsky & Rachmaninoff
Tchaikovsky, PC1, Horowitz/Toscanini, RCA
Tchaikovsky, Sys. 4-6, Mravinsky, DG _ IIIII
Tchaikovsky: Manfred Symphony, Toscanini, RCA _ I
Tchaikovsky/Rachmaninoff, PC 1 & 2, Argerich, Philips _ I
Tchaikovsky PC 1, Rachmaninoff PC 2; Cliburn, Kondrashin/Reiner _ I
Rachmaninov Vespers, Sweschnikow (EuroDisc) _ II
Rachmaninoff/Stokowski, 2nd PC, RCA
Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto 2, Richter, DG _ III
Rachmaninov: Piano Concerto, Byron Janis #3 RCA _ I
Verdi & Wagner & Weber
Verdi, Traviata, Kleiber, DG
Verdi, Otello, Domingo et al., Maazel, EMI _ I
Verdi, Traviata, Gheorghiu, Solti, Decca
Verdi, Rigoletto (Giulini) _ I
Verdi, Falstaff, Toscanini, RCA _ I
Wagner, T&I, Furtwangler, EMI _ II
Wagner, T&I, Boehm, DG
Wagner, T&I, Kleiber, DG
Wagner, Ring, Solti, Decca_ IIIII BOX
Weber, Freischuetz, Kleiber, DG
Other
Yonder Came A Courteous Knight, Ravenscroft, by the Pro Cantione Antiqua _ I
Victoria The Victoria Collection, Christophers (Coro) _ I
North German organ music, Leonhardt (Sony/Vivarte) _ I
Buxtehude complete organ works, Harald Vogel (MDG) _ I
Vivaldi Four Seasons, Marrinner, Decca _ I
Scarlatti, Sonatas, Pletnev, Virgin _ I
The Scarlatti Sonatas, Scott Ross, Erato BOX - 2
Händel Water Music & Music For The Royal Fireworks, Gardiner (Philips) _ I
Hummel/Piano Concertos 2&3 Hough _ I
Mendelssohn/Schumann Piano Trios, Cortot/Thibaud/Casals, EMI
Liszt: Sonata in B minor, Krystian Zimerman, DG _ I
Chopin Vladimir Tropp plays Chopin [a.o. Sonata no. 2] (Denon) _ I (bit obscure?)
Chopin Waltzes, Lipatti, EMI _ I
Berlioz, Symphonie Fantastique, Colin Davis, LSO _ I
Berlioz, Les Troyens, Davis, Philips _ I
Berlioz, Les Troyens, Davis, LSO Live
Dvorak, Sys, 8 & 9, Kubelik, DG _ IIII
Offenbach: Entre Nous _ I
J.Strauss, Fledermaus, Kleiber, DG
J.Strauss, Fledermaus, Karajan, RCA
1992 Neujahrskonzert, Vienna, Kleiber, Sony
1989 Neujahrskonzert, Vienna, Kleiber, Sony
Puccini, Tosca, Callas, de Sabata, EMI _ II
Faure: Requiem, Pavane . Durufle: Requiem, Philip Ledger, EMI _ I
Elgar, Cello Concerto, J.d.Pre, LSO, Barbirolli, EMI[/u] _ IIIII IIIII III
Holst Military Suites for Band/Fennel _ I
Holst, Planets, Boult, EMI _ I
Ravel, Daphnis & Chloe, Monteux, Decca
Ravel/Debuy, Quartetto Italiano, Philips _ IIII
Debussy - Pelleas et Melisande, Roger Desormiere, EMI _ I
Schoenberg: Pierre Boulez, Gurrelieder, Columbia _ I
Schoenberg: Kubelik, Gurrelieder, DG _ I
Berg, Lulu, Boulez, DG _ IIIII II
Janacek, Katia Kabanova, Mackerras, Decca _ I
Janacek, Makropoulos, Mackerras, Decca _ I
Strauss, Four Last Songs, Schwarzkopf (OTTO or Szell?), EMI _ III
Bartok Cto. for Orchestra, Reiner, RCA _ I
Bartok PCs, Anda, Fricsay, DG _ IIIII I
Messiaen, Turangalila, Wit, Naxos
Glass, 20 Piano Etudes, Batagov, Orange Mountain. _ I
Philip Glass, Einstein on the Beach, CBS
L. Andriessen, De Staat (De Leeuw) _ I
Gorecki, Third Symphony, Upshaw/Zinam, Nonesuch _ IIIII
Paert, Tabula Rasa, ECM _ IIIII I
Adams, Shaker Loops, Alsop, Naxos
Boulez, Repons, DG _ IIIII I
Swing, Swing, Swing the 1938 broadcast _ I
The Three Tenors in Concert, Decca
[/quote]
Whittling-down continues here, with the:
Second Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28185.0.html).
Third Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28189.0.html).
Fourth Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28209.0.html).
Fifth Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28210.0.html).
Sixth Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28218.0.html).
Seventh Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=28227.0)
Half-time report on the 7th poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28227.msg1148477.html#msg1148477):
By the way: When I started this, I had been completely unaware of the "polling" games that have been underway at the "polling station". I now realize that this might seem like "Ugh..." yet another one of those. I didn't mean to contribute to the pollution.
My intention with this "TGREM" post is quite different.
No super-clear frontrunner in the 7th poll, which is surprising once again, since there are several candidates in this batch that could be -- and were -- considered absolutely "GREAT" recordings at one point or another.
Notably Toscanini's Falstaff, which had decades of "THE RECORDING" status... but also Reiner's Bartok, the Toscanini/Horowitz Tchaikovsky 1 (hyper-hyped, in its day and always overrated until now, perhaps), the Desormiere Debussy (first good recording of that opera; maybe first complete even?). And the Fricsay 9th, the first 9th of the stereo age. (And one that I think really holds up.) That latter one is the front-runner, so far, if that's the right word for a recording that could only unite 18% of the vote on it so far.
4 (14.3%) Bartok Cto. for Orchestra, Reiner, RCA
3 (10.7%) Debussy - Pelleas et Melisande, Roger Desormiere, EMI
2 (7.1%) Verdi, Rigoletto (Giulini)
3 (10.7%) Verdi, Falstaff, Toscanini, RCA
2 (7.1%) Rachmaninoff/Stokowski, 2nd PC, RCA
2 (7.1%) Tchaikovsky, PC1, Horowitz/Toscanini, RCA
3 (10.7%) Schubert String Quintet, Prades (Casals/Tortelier)
2 (7.1%) Mozart, Requiem, Harnoncourt, DHM
5 (17.9%) Beethoven, Symphony No.9, Fricsay, DG
1 (3.6%) Bach Das wohltemperierte Clavier, Gilbert (DG/Archiv)
0 (0%) Bach, Orchestral Suites, Harnoncourt, Teldec
1 (3.6%) Chopin Vladimir Tropp plays Chopin [a.o. Sonata no. 2] (Denon)
On the one hand, selecting any candidate(s) for " greatest recording ever made " may be a totally futile endeavor.
On the other hand, certain recordings have been discussed whose existence l was ignorant of, and others which l had forgotten have been referenced.
So on balance l am grateful for this thread and all contributors. By all means, carry on!
Lurking,
LKB
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 11, 2018, 07:31:50 AM
Half-time report on the 7th poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28227.msg1148477.html#msg1148477):
By the way: When I started this, I had been completely unaware of the "polling" games that have been underway at the "polling station". I now realize that this might seem like "Ugh..." yet another one of those. I didn't mean to contribute to the pollution.
My intention with this "TGREM" post is quite different.
No super-clear frontrunner in the 7th poll, which is surprising once again, since there are several candidates in this batch that could be -- and were -- considered absolutely "GREAT" recordings at one point or another.
Notably Toscanini's Falstaff, which had decades of "THE RECORDING" status... but also Reiner's Bartok, the Toscanini/Horowitz Tchaikovsky 1 (hyper-hyped, in its day and always overrated until now, perhaps), the Desormiere Debussy (first good recording of that opera; maybe first complete even?). And the Fricsay 9th, the first 9th of the stereo age. (And one that I think really holds up.) That latter one is the front-runner, so far, if that's the right word for a recording that could only unite 18% of the vote on it so far.
4 (14.3%) Bartok Cto. for Orchestra, Reiner, RCA
3 (10.7%) Debussy - Pelleas et Melisande, Roger Desormiere, EMI
2 (7.1%) Verdi, Rigoletto (Giulini)
3 (10.7%) Verdi, Falstaff, Toscanini, RCA
2 (7.1%) Rachmaninoff/Stokowski, 2nd PC, RCA
2 (7.1%) Tchaikovsky, PC1, Horowitz/Toscanini, RCA
3 (10.7%) Schubert String Quintet, Prades (Casals/Tortelier)
2 (7.1%) Mozart, Requiem, Harnoncourt, DHM
5 (17.9%) Beethoven, Symphony No.9, Fricsay, DG
1 (3.6%) Bach Das wohltemperierte Clavier, Gilbert (DG/Archiv)
0 (0%) Bach, Orchestral Suites, Harnoncourt, Teldec
1 (3.6%) Chopin Vladimir Tropp plays Chopin [a.o. Sonata no. 2] (Denon)
Actually, I find these polls to be a breath of fresh air from the games in the polling station, which I am taking a bit of a break from! This one is quite different in approach. :)
The 7th poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28227.msg1148477.html#msg1148477) has stalled a tad; if I could get three more members to vote, that would be lovely.
Perhaps get a bit more clarity into matters as to what can be safely dropped and what might still - just - be included for further consideration.
Right now I am inclined to move along these:
Bartok Cto. for Orchestra, Reiner, RCA, Schubert String Quintet, Prades (Casals/Tortelier) and Beethoven, Symphony No.9, Fricsay, DG...
...the question being if any of these will still hop onto the train:
Debussy - Pelleas et Melisande, Roger Desormiere, EMI
Verdi, Falstaff, Toscanini, RCA
Rachmaninoff/Stokowski, 2nd PC, RCA
The Seventh poll has had 21 participators... good enough to come to some conclusions.
The Seventh Poll! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=28227.0) sees the following cuts:
Gone:
Verdi, Rigoletto (Giulini) 2 (5.3%)
Verdi, Falstaff, Toscanini, RCA 3 (7.9%)
Tchaikovsky, PC1, Horowitz/Toscanini, RCA 2 (5.3%)
Mozart, Requiem, Harnoncourt, DHM 3 (7.9%)
Bach Das wohltemperierte Clavier, Gilbert (DG/Archiv) 1 (2.6%)
Bach, Orchestral Suites, Harnoncourt, Teldec 0 (0%)
Chopin Vladimir Tropp plays Chopin [a.o. Sonata no. 2] (Denon) 2 (5.3%)
Toscanini's Falstaff getting so little love... I suppose this is the nominal 'shocker'... or rather: The reason this thread is of interest to me. Once considered definitely among the greatest recordings, time has simply washed away its on-time significance. We have come such a long way since the Toscanini-hold over classical music was still firm. It's showing.
Still in the game:
Only two recording had anything like a distinct mandate to continue life in this quest:
Fricsay's Beethoven 9th and Reiner's Bartok Concerto for Orchestra. That's not surprising.
Just squeaking through, for now, are also:
Debussy - Pelleas et Melisande, Roger Desormiere, EMI 4 (10.5%)
Schubert String Quintet, Prades (Casals/Tortelier) 4 (10.5%)
Rachmaninoff/Stokowski, 2nd PC, RCA 4 (10.5%) [A bit surprising that, given that other recordings of similar renown at a similar time have not fared even that modestly well.]
Meanwhile: Here's the Eighth Poll! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=28246.0)
List of possible candidates for inclusion in a poll about "Greatest Recording Ever Made"
Now sorted by composer so that we may perhaps start bracketing to whittle things down.
Bach
Bach, Matthew Passion, Klemperer, EMI _ I / -2
Bach Matthäus Passion, Leonhardt (Harmonia Mundi) _ I
Bach Matthäus Passion, Harnoncourt III (Harmonia Mundi) _ I
Bach Matthäus Passion, Mogens Wöldike (Vanguard/The Bach Guild)
Bach, Mass in B Minor, Gardiner, Archiv _ III
Bach, Christmas Oratorio, Karl Richter, Archiv
Bach, Orchestral Suites, Harnoncourt, Teldec
Bach Goldberg Variations, Xhu Xiao-Mei (Mirare)
Bach, Goldberg Variations, Leonhardt, 1978, DHM _ I
Bach Goldberg Variations, Glenn Gould, Columbia _ III
Bach, Concertos italiaens, Tharaud, Harmonia Mundi _ II
Bach, Sonatas & Partitas, Milstein, DG _ I
Bach, Cello Suites, Casals, EMI _ I
Bach, Cello Suites, Fournier, DG
Bach, Organ Works, Karl Richter, DG
Bach, Organ works, Kooiman (Coronata) _ I
Bach Die Kunst der Fuge [organ] Rogg (EMI) _ I
Bach Das wohltemperierte Clavier, Gilbert (DG/Archiv) _ I
Bach Brandenburg Concertos, Goebel (DG/Archiv) _ I
Beethoven
Beethoven, Violin Concerto, Kreisler/Blech EMI
Beethoven, Violin Concerto, Zehetmair, Brugen, Philips
Beethoven, Triple Concerto, Richter, Oistrakh, Slava, HvK, EMI
Beethoven Symphonies (alternatively: Eroica?), Karajan, 1963, DG _ I (BOX)
Beethoven Symphonies, Zinman, Tonhalle, Arte Nova _ -1
Beethoven Symphonies, Toscanini, RCA BOX _ -1
Beethoven Eroica Symphony, Furtwängler, WP 1943 (EMI)
Beethoven Eroica Symphony, Monteux, Concertgebouw Orchestra (Philips/Decca)
Beethoven Symphony No 3 'Eroica' E Kleiber/VPO _ I
Beethoven, Eroica Symphony, Gardiner, ORR, Archiv
Beethoven Pastoral symphony: Walter, Columbia Symphony (Sony)
Beethoven, Symphonies 5 & 7, Carlos Kleiber, DG[glow] _ IIIII IIIII
Beethoven, LvB 7, NYP, Toscanini, RCA _ I
Beethoven, Symphony No.9, Furtwangler, Bayreuth, EMI
Beethoven, Symphony No.9, Fricsay, DG
Beethoven Missa Solemnis: Bernstein, Concertgebouw (DGG)
Beethoven Sonatas, Schnabel, EMI _ II BOX
Beethoven Piano Sonatas, Backhaus II, Decca _ I BOX
Beethoven, String Quartets, Busch Quartet, HMV/EMI/Warner
Beethoven, Piano Concertos, Fleisher/Szell (CBS) _IIII (strange, though, that these have not been available as a (just-Beethoven) for such a long time. {I know of the combined Brahms/LvB set.})
Brahms
Brahms Piano Concertos, Gilels/Jochum, DG _ II
Brahms Piano Concertos, Fleisher/Szell, Sony _ I
Brahms Symphony 4, Kleiber, DG _ IIIII IIIII II
Brahms Symphony no 2: Abbado, BP (1969) (DGG)
Brahms Symphony no 3: Walter, Columbia Symphony (Sony)
Brahms, PC 1, Rubinstein, Reiner, RCA
Bruckner
Bruckner 7, Vienna, Karajan, DG _ IIII
Bruckner, Symphony no 5: Klemperer, New Philharmonia (EMI) _ IIIII
Bruckner 5, Jochum, RCO, "Ottobeuren", Philips_ IIIII
Bruckner 8, Wand, BPh, RCA_ III
Bruckner 9, Giulini, Vienna, DG_ IIIII I
Bruckner 9, Haitink II, RCO, Philips_ IIII
Britten
Britten, Peter Grimes, Britten-Pears et al., Decca _ I
Britten, Peter Grimes, Davis, Vickers, Philips _ I
Britten, War Requiem, Britten, Decca. _ I
Mozart
Mozart, Don Giovanni, Giulini, EMI
Mozart, Cosi fan tute, R.Jacobs, Harmonia Mundi
Mozart, Don Giovanni, R.Jaocbs, Harmonia Mundi
Mozart, Idomeneo, Gardiner, Archiv
Mozart, Figaro, E.Kleiber, Decca _ III
Mozart, Horn Concertos, Brian, EMI _ III
Mozart, Clarinet Concerto, Pay/Hogwood, Decca
Mozart Mass in C minor/Leppard _ I
Mozart, Symphonies, Hogwood (Decca/l'Oiseau Lyre) _ I BOX
Mozart Figaro, Solti (Decca) _ I
Mozart Figaro, Giulini (EMI) _ I
Mozart Così, Klemperer (EMI) _ I
Mozart Zauberflöte, Klemperer (EMI) _ I
Mozart, Requiem, Harnoncourt, DHM
Mozart, Requiem, Boehm, DG
Schubert
Schubert String Quintet, Prades (Casals/Tortelier), CBS/Sony
Schubert, Death & Maiden, Amadeus Quartet, DG _ I
Schubert Complete Symphonies Immerseel (Columbia/Zig Zag) _ I BOX
Schubert, Schoene Muellerin, Fischer-Dieskau, Moore, EMI
Schubert, Winterreise, Fischer-Dieskau, Demus, DG _ II
Shostakovich & Prokofiev
Prokofiev Piano Sonata 8 et al, S.Richter, DG
DSCH, VC & CC, Oistrahk, Rostropovich, CBS _ I
DSCH, Sy.5, Bernstein (Tokyo), Sony
DSCH, Sy.8, Kondrashin, (?)
DSCH, Sy.15, Sanderling, Erato _ I
DSCH, Sy.15, Kondrashin, Dresden, Profil
Stravinsky
Stravinsky: Rite of the Spring, Lenny, Sony (1958)
Stravinsky: Rite of the Spring, Gergiev, Philips
Stravinsky: Rite of the Spring, Stravinsky, either of his own _ III
Stravinsky, Firebird, Boulez, DG _ II
Tchaikovsky & Rachmaninoff
Tchaikovsky, PC1, Horowitz/Toscanini, RCA
Tchaikovsky, Sys. 4-6, Mravinsky, DG _ IIIII
Tchaikovsky: Manfred Symphony, Toscanini, RCA _ I
Tchaikovsky/Rachmaninoff, PC 1 & 2, Argerich, Philips _ I
Tchaikovsky PC 1, Rachmaninoff PC 2; Cliburn, Kondrashin/Reiner _ I
Rachmaninov Vespers, Sweschnikow (EuroDisc) _ II
Rachmaninoff/Stokowski, 2nd PC, RCA
Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto 2, Richter, DG _ III
Rachmaninov: Piano Concerto, Byron Janis #3 RCA _ I
Verdi & Wagner & Weber
Verdi, Traviata, Kleiber, DG
Verdi, Otello, Domingo et al., Maazel, EMI _ I
Verdi, Traviata, Gheorghiu, Solti, Decca
Verdi, Rigoletto (Giulini) _ I
Verdi, Falstaff, Toscanini, RCA _ I
Wagner, T&I, Furtwangler, EMI _ II
Wagner, T&I, Boehm, DG
Wagner, T&I, Kleiber, DG
Wagner, Ring, Solti, Decca_ IIIII BOX
Weber, Freischuetz, Kleiber, DG
Other
Yonder Came A Courteous Knight, Ravenscroft, by the Pro Cantione Antiqua _ I
Victoria The Victoria Collection, Christophers (Coro) _ I
North German organ music, Leonhardt (Sony/Vivarte) _ I
Buxtehude complete organ works, Harald Vogel (MDG) _ I
Vivaldi Four Seasons, Marrinner, Decca _ I
Scarlatti, Sonatas, Pletnev, Virgin _ I
The Scarlatti Sonatas, Scott Ross, Erato BOX - 2
Händel Water Music & Music For The Royal Fireworks, Gardiner (Philips) _ I
Hummel/Piano Concertos 2&3 Hough _ I
Mendelssohn/Schumann Piano Trios, Cortot/Thibaud/Casals, EMI
Liszt: Sonata in B minor, Krystian Zimerman, DG _ I
Chopin Vladimir Tropp plays Chopin [a.o. Sonata no. 2] (Denon) _ I (bit obscure?)
Chopin Waltzes, Lipatti, EMI _ I
Berlioz, Symphonie Fantastique, Colin Davis, LSO _ I
Berlioz, Les Troyens, Davis, Philips _ I
Berlioz, Les Troyens, Davis, LSO Live
Dvorak, Sys, 8 & 9, Kubelik, DG _ IIII
Offenbach: Entre Nous _ I
J.Strauss, Fledermaus, Kleiber, DG
J.Strauss, Fledermaus, Karajan, RCA
1992 Neujahrskonzert, Vienna, Kleiber, Sony
1989 Neujahrskonzert, Vienna, Kleiber, Sony
Puccini, Tosca, Callas, de Sabata, EMI _ II
Faure: Requiem, Pavane . Durufle: Requiem, Philip Ledger, EMI _ I
Elgar, Cello Concerto, J.d.Pre, LSO, Barbirolli, EMI[/u] _ IIIII IIIII III
Holst Military Suites for Band/Fennel _ I
Holst, Planets, Boult, EMI _ I
Ravel, Daphnis & Chloe, Monteux, Decca
Ravel/Debuy, Quartetto Italiano, Philips _ IIII
Debussy - Pelleas et Melisande, Roger Desormiere, EMI _ I
Schoenberg: Pierre Boulez, Gurrelieder, Columbia _ I
Schoenberg: Kubelik, Gurrelieder, DG _ I
Berg, Lulu, Boulez, DG _ IIIII II
Janacek, Katia Kabanova, Mackerras, Decca _ I
Janacek, Makropoulos, Mackerras, Decca _ I
Strauss, Four Last Songs, Schwarzkopf (OTTO or Szell?), EMI _ III
Bartok Cto. for Orchestra, Reiner, RCA _ I
Bartok PCs, Anda, Fricsay, DG _ IIIII I
Messiaen, Turangalila, Wit, Naxos
Glass, 20 Piano Etudes, Batagov, Orange Mountain. _ I
Philip Glass, Einstein on the Beach, CBS
L. Andriessen, De Staat (De Leeuw) _ I
Gorecki, Third Symphony, Upshaw/Zinam, Nonesuch _ IIIII
Paert, Tabula Rasa, ECM _ IIIII I
Adams, Shaker Loops, Alsop, Naxos
Boulez, Repons, DG _ IIIII I
Swing, Swing, Swing the 1938 broadcast _ I
The Three Tenors in Concert, Decca
Whittling-down continues here, with the:
First Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28180.0.html).
Second Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28185.0.html).
Third Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28189.0.html).
Fourth Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28209.0.html).
Fifth Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28210.0.html).
Sixth Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,28218.0.html).
Seventh Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=28227.0).
Eighth Poll (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=28246.msg1150466#msg1150466).
All polls are continuously open and you can change your votes.