GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: Mandryka on July 17, 2016, 10:47:11 PM

Title: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on July 17, 2016, 10:47:11 PM
(http://www.euterpeclassicmusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/1649-350x350.jpg)

The organ (Zeffirini /Badia Florence) is 16th century and in 2012 was "returned to a temperament (tuning system) closer to that in which it was first built". I bet the Italian style harpsichord, a modern copy of an anonymous instrument, is tuned likewise. Daniele Boccaccio prides himself on the way his preparation has been informed by historical considerations. His style is very deeply felt, which is much appreciated in the contrapuntal music.  Without wishing to lapse into racial stereotypes, he makes the music sing.

One idea you sometimes hear about Froberger's music is that it falls into two types: contrapuntal and expressive. This is something I've seen suggested by Davitt Moroney for example. In a good performance like Boccaccio's you hear that this idea is really misleading, and that the Fantasias and Canzoni and Toccatas, properly played, are, as much as the death music, infused with a dark brooding sadness.

http://www.fegfirenze.it/organo.htm

http://www.euterpeclassicmusic.com/prodotto/froberger-toccate-fantasie-canzoni-suites/

Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on July 18, 2016, 05:51:22 AM
(http://www.musicandarts.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/2/1280.png)

Listening to this interpretation of suites by Colin Tilney, two thought crossed my mind. One is a comment by Kenneth Gilbert about Rameau, where he says that inégalité isn't a decoration added to the music, it is rather organic to the basic pulse. That is why basic pulse is so important, what you lose if you play every movement like an unmeasured prelude (Cates? Cera? Rübsam? )!

And the other is how Tilney's touch makes each note in a phrase meaningful, presumably because there's a bit of air between each note.

It is tempting to say that Tilney's style is emotionally restrained. But it is not true, any more than it is with Leonhardt's Froberger. It's just that the naturalness and eloquence of what he does makes the interpretation seem to vanish, he's like the stage conjuror who makes the lady in the box disappear!
 
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on July 19, 2016, 03:21:21 AM
Amusing and informed discussion of the tombeau for Blancrocher here

https://list.uiowa.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind1111&L=HPSCHD-L&P=R12252&1=HPSCHD-L&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on July 19, 2016, 03:33:31 AM
(http://a5.mzstatic.com/us/r30/Music/v4/79/b6/02/79b6024f-4604-618f-fad2-10d60acdafd7/cover170x170.jpeg)

Continuing to reflect on this alleged coolth of his contrapuntal music, as opposed to the late suites, and my dubiousness thereof, I listened to a few recordings of the D minor ricercar today, which Leonhardt recorded, as did Tilney. Well I stumbled across an old BNL CD from someone called Anne Robert.  And you know,  this lady has a talent for finding the affect in Toccatas, ricercari, cappricci, fantasias etc. A bit in the Verlet vain, but different, if you know what I mean. Less random rubato, less over-interpreted.

The harpsichord sounds like a Hemsch: a powerful and rich bass, well balanced. I note that I can find no mention of a Hemsch harpsichord at Chateau De La Fontasse. So go figure.

http://harpsichordphoto.org/french/

Sound Engineering is OK, a bit too close for me, but I don't want to cavil.

The cover says vol 1 - but so far it's the only Froberger from her that I've found, nothing further is listed in the Bibliothèque Nationale de France.

http://data.bnf.fr/documents-by-rdt/13937074/1580/page1
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on July 19, 2016, 10:11:45 AM
Thanks for the recommendations. I do not think I have anything of this composer. I am really enjoying exploring music (especially for organ) by some of the lesser known names in late Renaissance-early Baroque music: Siefert, Volckmar, Mohnheim, Gronau, et al. Frescobaldi is the next one on my list to explore.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on July 20, 2016, 09:34:53 AM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000BTQGXU.03._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)



The concept behind this CD from Bob van Asperen is to  alternate the sunny canzoni with the darker toccatas and Fantasias.

The organ in San Martini, Bologna is, according to Aeolus's website, tuned meantone, but is it really tuned 1/4 comma? I don't have the confidence to say, but it feels wrong. In Asperen's hands it sounds as rich as a piece of Yorkshire Parkin.

That's a lot of ginger cake.  I'm afraid to say I don't think that he's a good enough organist to pull it off. It lacks . . . life. Dry parkin.

Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on July 22, 2016, 03:03:54 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/239/MI0003239882.jpg)

One of the performances on this CD by Pamela Ruiter Feenstra, is, IMO, a "great" bit of Froberger playing. It is the D minor Toccata, FbWV 102. I say this because of two things: the intense feeling and the complex voicing. That's how I came to find the CD - while comparing versions of this Toccata. There are other interesting ones - Mortensen, Vartolo - but Ruiter Feenstra's made me see what I like about Froberger's Italianate music. Her grasp of the toccatas is, generally, a high point of her art in this CD.

JJK's Toccatas and contrapuntal pieces are less dramatic and flamboyant than Frescobaldi's, and Pamela Ruiter Feenstra is completely in her element in the relatively reflective musical idiom. She tends to choose, correctly in my view, slowish tempos, which creates an air of introspection, and lets the listener appreciate the gestures in the music.

She has an acute feeling for the dialogue of the counterpoint: voices are in complex dramatic relation with each other, a sort of conversation or dance of voices. It is nothing short of astonishing - only Asperen comes close to playing like this, but maybe not so much in Froberger, where he seems to have other preoccupations. This gives her style of playing a unique sort of élan.

The instrument, Zentis, is well recorded and very beautiful. Italian harpsichords are surely right in most of the music on this CD  (there is a suite, though in fact I don't enjoy what she does there very much.)
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on July 22, 2016, 05:41:40 AM
I do not think I have anything of this composer.

I think for anyone who wants a sampler CD, to get a feel for the range of JJF's music, the one to get is this one by Gustav Leonhardt

(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51JNamKvwyL._SY300_QL70_.jpg)

The selection of music is wide - from Italianate contrapuntal music, levitation toccatas, French style suites. The instruments are perfect - organ by Christian Mueller in Amsterdam and an Italian style harpsichord by Martin Showroneck. The sound engineering is exceptional. The playing is abstract, you certainly don't feel as Leonhardt is expressing his own personal emotional world like you do with Verlet, but it is not at all cold or inhuman, on the contrary.  It has this quality which I noticed in Tilney's recording of making each note sound meaningful by letting each note respire - I can't explain it better,  you have to hear it. And in Froberger I think that's really important.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Que on July 22, 2016, 10:58:06 PM
As for Froberger's keyboard works played on harpsichord, I am totally commited to Bob van Asperen's recordings on Æolus in his series of the complete keyboard works (just completed, overview HERE (https://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en/content/view/full/255).

This is some of the best I've ever heard by Van Asperen, it is da bomb.... 8)



Another set with harpsichord music by Johann Jakob Froberger, whose first rate harpsichord music seems to be as enigmatic and elusive as F. Couperin's. :) First volume (2 CD's) by Dutch harpsichordist Bob van Asperen in what will be a complete keyboard music series (http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en/all_discs/editions/froberger_edition) on the small German label Aeolus (http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en).

The recording is absolutely wonderful (the founders of the label are sound engineers): my ideal harpsichord recording - not to bright and up-close, but not too "spacious" or reverberant either. Very natural and clear. Van Asperen plays a Ruckers harpsichord from 1640 with a firm and deep tone.
As of the interpretation. I have still very little to go on as means of comparison, owning just the superb Baiano disc on Symphonia (see earlier post) to date. And as I said, Froberger's music is elusive and I haven't settled on a "ideal Froberger" in my mind, if ever. :) Though this recording is another step forward in that process. Van Asperen does not take the intellectually probing approach of Baiano, his style is ....more leisurely, genial, benign, playful at times. Van Asperen lets things unfold with emphasis on the careful development of phrases and the blending of the sound. And it is that transparant sound picture and the seemingly uncomplicated way the music develops, that are the key attractions of his playing.

Very good indeed, though at some instances I wished for more "grip" and more extrovert "brilliance". I think I will continue this series and try some other interpretations at the same time.

Heartily recommended.

Q


.



Part two of Bob van Asperen's Froberger Edition (http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en/all_discs/editions/froberger_edition) on the small German label Aeolus (http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en). (See my comments on the first volume HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2044.msg93269.html#msg93269).)
I'm very glad I went through with this and got the second volume, because reservations I had before - the occasional diminished "structural grip" and moments the music felt "static" without sufficient forward thrust, have entirely dissapated with this volume. And all the positives remain: Van Asperen is a master in letting the music enfold naturally, and in evoking a lush and exotic sound picture. Again brilliantly recorded, but this time another harpsichord is used: a Couchet-Blanchet-Taskin. A Flemish built/French adapted harpsichord, whith a sound that is slighly softer edged and less bright than the Ruckers in the first volume, but which sounds as rich.

A short note on the music: the more I hear of it, the more I'm fascinated by Froberger's enigmatic and "fantastical" music. But an acquired taste, I'm sure. 8)

Q


.



Reaffirming my recommendation for this Froberger series by Bob van Asperen after listening to the 3rd installment. Performances are beyond reproach IMO: clarity and equilibrity, combined with sufficient impetus and playfulness - wonderful!  :) Van Asperen plays a lush and transparent sounding anonymous French harpsichord from c.1700.

In the three volumes that I've acquired so far, this series goes from strength to strength - more information in the posts above. And my favourable impression of Froberger's music - continues to be strengthened as well. :)

Q
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Que on July 22, 2016, 11:34:46 PM

The concept behind this CD from Bob van Asperen is to  alternate the sunny canzoni with the darker toccatas and Fantasias.

The organ in San Martini, Bologna is, according to Aeolus's website, tuned meantone, but is it really tuned 1/4 comma? I don't have the confidence to say, but it feels wrong. In Asperen's hands it sounds as rich as a piece of Yorkshire Parkin.

That's a lot of ginger cake.  I'm afraid to say I don't think that he's a good enough organist to pull it off. It lacks . . . life. Dry parkin.


My own (first) impressions:

.



As Premont commented before, this is an excellent disc. Coming from Froberger's works for harpsichord (see the German Baroque thread) that are very much oriented on the French tradition, this is somewhat of a surprise since this seems to me quite focused on Italian organ music by Frescobaldi et al. Pretty elusive and somewhat austere stuff too, basically a large collection of exercises in counterpoint. Playing by Van Asperen is pretty straight, unfussy. It is on the conservative side but not as much as his teacher Leonhardt. What makes it a success is the flexibility and subtle phrasing, bold at some times, almost transcendental at others. And the warm, intimate, characterful and transparent sound of the  organ of the Basilica S.Martini in Bologna, built in 1556 by Giovanni Cipri. Recording by the German label Aeolus (http://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en/), that specialises in organ music, is exemplary. A rewarding disc for advanced organ listeners.

Q


I believe you wanted to know what was mentioned in the booklet about the choice of the organ... :)

Firstly you had some doubts on the tuning.... The booklet states mean-tone tuning at a' = 435 Hz.
Although the notes provide ample background information on the organ, it does not offer an explanation why this particular organ was chosen.
However, the strong influence of Froberger's teacher Girolamo Frescobaldi in these works is emphasised.

Q
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on July 23, 2016, 04:14:02 AM
My own (first) impressions:

I believe you wanted to know what was mentioned in the booklet about the choice of the organ... :)

Firstly you had some doubts on the tuning.... The booklet states mean-tone tuning at a' = 435 Hz.
Although the notes provide ample background information on the organ, it does not offer an explanation why this particular organ was chosen.
However, the strong influence of Froberger's teacher Girolamo Frescobaldi in these works is emphasised.

Q

Cheers q. I like Asperen when he's playing harpsichord, I hope I will get the hang of his organ style one day.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Scion7 on July 23, 2016, 06:27:14 AM
Thanks for bringing this Baroquester to my attention.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Que on July 23, 2016, 10:24:16 PM
Cheers q. I like Asperen when he's playing harpsichord, I hope I will get the hang of his organ style one day.

As to Van Asperen's organ recordings - I have to date vols. 5 & 6 - I can understand your hesitations…. I think it is good, and certainly good enough for me to continue and complete the series.
The use of nice organs and the amazing recording quality of Aelous weigh in favour of Van Asperen as well. Plus Froberger organ recordings are not exactly thick on the ground...

But they are not "da bomb" as harpsichord are…. In a way they remind me of how Van Asperen used to sound on the harpsichord: studious, on the conservative side. I can imagine other players to infuse some more life into it. Andre Marcon comes to mind (he did a miscellaneous recital that includes some Froberger on DIVOX), also expert in the Southern Germanic organ School, Joseph Kelemen. To my surprise he did an entire Froberger disc on Arte Nova that I need to track down… Another candidate might be Stefano Molardi.

PS Now Aeolus has concluded the entire series a boxed reissue might be in the cards? ::)

Perhaps better to wait and see, Harry! :D

Q
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on July 25, 2016, 11:09:55 PM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bwkag3j9CuQ/hqdefault.jpg)

An analytic and phlegmatic and level headed approach to Froberger in this the second recording by Chrostophe Rousset. Anyone who enjoys the Teldec recording from Leonhardt will find some of the same approach here. Dedicated to suites, some of them not so often performers outside of complete sets. So basically I think this is really valuable recording, and it shows a rather surprising side of Rousset - not at all intuitive, savage, spontaneous or dramatic.

(It has made me want to revisit and reassess his Well Temepered Clavier, I have a vague and unverified feeling that it's in the same mould.)
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on July 25, 2016, 11:23:27 PM

But they are not "da bomb" as harpsichord are…. In a way they remind me of how Van Asperen used to sound on the harpsichord: studious, on the conservative side.

There is one Toccata which Asperen recorded on organ and on harpsichord - Toccata 3. I much prefer the earlier harpsichord one, it's on a very good CD called War and Peace. (I don't agree that his earlier work was studious or conservative, by the way. Quite the contrary!)

(http://rcdn-1.fishpond.co.nz/0000/487/996/2665232/6.jpeg)


 I can imagine other players to infuse some more life into it. Andre Marcon comes to mind (he did a miscellaneous recital that includes some Froberger on DIVOX), also expert in the Southern Germanic organ School, Joseph Kelemen. To my surprise he did an entire Froberger disc on Arte Nova that I need to track down… Another candidate might be Stefano Molardi.



Q

One to take into account is Roland Götz, and Davitt Moroney. And Daniele Boccacio who I mentioned above. Both use outstanding organs. I'll try to make some comments about Kelemen's disc later, he uses an anachronistic organ.

(http://www.studio-xvii-augsburg.de/images/froberger.jpg)  (https://i.scdn.co/image/a7f1b7a9ec08bda1dbb9064cc2b13cae62e77bd0)
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on August 05, 2016, 11:29:05 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/Z3sMvZ3AzwKnmkJFEVGo4yNxlT0=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-3226358-1321295740.jpeg.jpg)

The above is Blandine Verlet's first Froberger CD (1989), played on the Ruckers Colmar, tuned meantone I believe, and not to be confused with her later recording (2000) which is now released with the moniker "L'Intranquilité"

There's a Toccata (XI) which is, I believe, a levitation Toccata - it is astonishing to hear this played on a harpsichord, especially this one with this tuning. The way Toccata II follows on from the Blancrocher Tombeau is  a really imaginative bit of programming. The Gigues are particularly special I think, the rhythms!

The style of play is an antinomy, like so much in music. On the one had muscular, bracing, lively, extrovert and strongly rhythmic. On the other hand it is full of fantasy.

Very much worth hearing, even for those who found the second recording over-interpreted.


Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Que on August 05, 2016, 11:04:56 PM
Guess what? ::)

Another scoop for Brilliant Classics with the issue in September of a complete Froberger keyboard works edition by Simone Stella:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/complete-music-for-harpsi/hnum/4141839

(http://www.grooves-inc.com/images/cover/740/194/f7sh5wpe.j31)

My initial fear that he would use the generic sounding Italian reconstruction of a German Baroque organ, that he used before, seems unfounded:

Quote
I'm recording the complete works for harpsichord and organ of Johann Jakob Froberger for the dutch label Brilliant Classics (production by OnClassical). For this project I have chosen to use two important italian historical organs, where I'm proud to be titular organist: the organ by Domenico Di Lorenzo da Lucca (1509-1521) in the church of Santissima Annunziata and the instrument by Onofrio Zeffirini da Cortona (1558) in the church of Badia Fiorentina, both in the historical centre of Florence (IT).

https://www.gofundme.com/Froberger

Q
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on August 14, 2016, 09:18:38 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/024/MI0001024280.jpg)

As with many of Lars Ulrik Mortensen's recordings the instrument is quite resonant. He plays in a way which is texturally busy - not much space between notes because of the ornamentation, but the phrasing is clear and sharp - I can't really think of the word in English but in French you'd say the phrasing is tranchant - "decisive" is possibly the right word -  so there's no problem with respiration. The recording is taken from an audience's perspective - it's good and natural, what you might hear if you were in a  recital. But it's not what people expect from harpsichord recordings, which are often recorded as if the microphone is actually in the instrument.

The performances are very distinctive because they are passionate - not miserable melancholy, but hot hot hot! Like he's boiling over with emotions, Latin emotions. Even in a sweet little thing like the partita on Die  Mayerin he's intense, ardent.

The combination of the unusual sound, the busy textures and the fervour have made this a really challenging recording for me to get into (I'm a Brit so my upper lip is stiff.) But now I've lightened up and I love it.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on September 02, 2016, 10:40:24 PM
(http://d250ptlkmugbjz.cloudfront.net/images/covers/70/34/3610155343470_300.jpg) (http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/208/9201208.jpg)

Two little finds, both clavichord performances of the A minor Fantasia FbWV 202, both quite slowed down. Dart is deep and lyrical, Tüma exudes a simple and touching humanity. Both absolutely riveting.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Que on September 02, 2016, 11:30:41 PM
Simone Stella's new set has reached Amazon (just DE for now...)


Q
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on September 03, 2016, 12:01:20 AM
Quote from: Simone Stella https://www.gofundme.com/Froberger, my emphasis
Dear Music Lovers,

actually I'm recording the complete works for harpsichord and organ of Johann Jakob Froberger for the dutch label Brilliant Classics (production by OnClassical). For this project I have chosen to use two important italian historical organs, where I'm proud to be titular organist: the organ by Domenico Di Lorenzo da Lucca (1509-1521) in the church of Santissima Annunziata and the instrument by Onofrio Zeffirini da Cortona (1558) in the church of Badia Fiorentina, both in the historical centre of Florence (IT).
The first instrument by Domenico Di Lorenzo needs urgently a great work of repair to be good for being recorded, estimated in 3000 euros. This is why I'm asking you, with this crowdfunding, to help us to repair this ancient organ, giving us the chance to let you hear its beautiful and unique sound in a valuable Brilliant Classics cd-box.
I want to thank everybody who will help us to finish this recording project within this year! I offer my cds to our donors.
I wish you all the best,

Simone Stella
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Que on September 03, 2016, 12:10:30 AM
Yes, the information about the use of historical organs instead if the generic reconstructions he sometimes uses was good news indeed.
And Italian organs should be appropriate for Froberger, Van Asperen did the same.
One more thing that comes to mind is that the organs, unless their sound has been "modernised" in subsequent times, are from the Renaissance.
This seems to indicate an approach that Stella will emphasise the "Frescobaldi" connection for the organ works, as Van Asperen did.

Q
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Que on September 12, 2016, 10:21:18 AM
When it rains, it pours - more new Froberger:


Q
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on September 22, 2016, 11:42:56 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51bQquJT3dL._SS500.jpg)

Volume 3 of Richard Egarr's Froberger series is one of the baroque keyboard recording which means the most to me, and which has to a certain extent formed my own musical taste.

The selection of music in the first half is almost all quite severe, in that the interest comes primarily not from melody, rhythm or variation, but from counterpoint. It is almost all quite serious too: there are moments of jubilation and even light heartedness, but they are rare.  What makes Egarr so special here is that he finds in these toccatas, capricci and ricercari something both touching and tender.

The second half is given over to suites, but again the tone is serious and spiritual.

On harpsichord Egarr is a great great master: he manages to be simultaneously calm and passionate, yet another example of paradox which now seems to me to be at the heart of all early music, maybe all music. Maybe all art. The emotions he evokes in the suites are bizarre: there is something almost nightmarish about what he makes of suite xviii, for example. And just wait till you hear what he makes of Toccatas XV and XVII! And yet his way of playing is not without a certain grandeur either: another quasi-paradox there - both grand and frightening.

Basically we have here a recording which touches the soul, and which shows both composer and performer as poets of the highest order.

There's a good balance of organ and harpsichord music in the first half. Sound is absolutely fine.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on September 24, 2016, 12:39:53 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/124/MI0001124365.jpg)   (http://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/thumbnails/4026798100643.jpg)

In 1654, towards the end of his life, Froberger published a set of six suites numbered 7 through 12.  The performance here by Egarr is marked by a sense of emotional restraint. This is a marked contrast to Asperen, whose performances are full of emotion. Egarr makes me think of Leonhardt, who recorded two of the suites in question.

What is the wisdom of age? Is it a move to abstraction and asceticism, imperturbability, a move away from emotional turbulence?  Or is it a sense of profound melancholy and regret?

Egarr and Leonhardt answer the first way. Asperen the second. Glen Wilson has recorded all these suites recently, I wonder what his answer will be.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on September 29, 2016, 09:19:54 AM
(http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/12/92/42/38/reflex43.jpg)



This recording by Tilney is devoted to Italianate music, and may be the most pure and abstracted Froberger performance I know. What I mean is that it is the music is abstracted from emotion, from human psychology. We're in a sound-world which is not really about feeling. The question is whether it benefits from this kind of treatment, or whether the detachment kills it.

I'm not sure what I think, and I find my response to Tilney's playing here has done a U turn over time. At first I thought the music making was unbearably dry and uncommunicative. But somehow, and I can't explain how, I now find myself very stimulated by what Tilney does.

It's as if I have had to learn how to appreciate  this way of making music, maybe because it is so different from galant or romantic style. And I have had to discipline myself to take it on its own terms, to avoid comparisons.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on March 04, 2017, 06:07:55 AM
Interesting thesis on keyboard temperaments in Froberger

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/12055/21/PhD%20Masumi%20Yamamoto.pdf
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: (: premont :) on March 04, 2017, 06:46:55 AM
Interesting thesis on keyboard temperaments in Froberger

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/12055/21/PhD%20Masumi%20Yamamoto.pdf

Thanks for this fine link, Mandryka.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on March 05, 2017, 10:27:38 AM
Nice picture

(http://i65.tinypic.com/2copidc.png)
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on March 05, 2017, 10:47:25 AM
Thanks for this fine link, Mandryka.

It's interesting to compare Leonhardt and Verlet in the Lamentation sur ce que j'ai été volé, given what he says about functional harmony and tuning for the piece.

What he says about Egarr and the wobbly ricercar is extraordinary.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on April 07, 2017, 01:44:47 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/024/MI0001024280.jpg)

As with many of Lars Ulrik Mortensen's recordings the instrument is quite resonant. He plays in a way which is texturally busy - not much space between notes because of the ornamentation, but the phrasing is clear and sharp - I can't really think of the word in English but in French you'd say the phrasing is tranchant - "decisive" is possibly the right word -  so there's no problem with respiration. The recording is taken from an audience's perspective - it's good and natural, what you might hear if you were in a  recital. But it's not what people expect from harpsichord recordings, which are often recorded as if the microphone is actually in the instrument.

The performances are very distinctive because they are passionate - not miserable melancholy, but hot hot hot! Like he's boiling over with emotions, Latin emotions. Even in a sweet little thing like the partita on Die  Mayerin he's intense, ardent.

The combination of the unusual sound, the busy textures and the fervour have made this a really challenging recording for me to get into (I'm a Brit so my upper lip is stiff.) But now I've lightened up and I love it.
I was led to this by another forum - the suggestion that in some Bach, the influence of Froberger is felt. This is not a disappointing recording. I would love to see something like this live. It really takes one away. Mortensen is carried away and brings the listener along. 
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Ubiquitous on April 07, 2017, 03:15:33 AM
the suggestion that in some Bach, the influence of Froberger is felt.

Below is an excerpt from a 19th century book written by Spitta. In addition, Bach varied the form of the suite in his solo violin partitas and cello suites. The form of the suite for instrumental music was established by Froberger.It originally contained Allemande, Courante, Sarabande, and Gigue. Bach followed the tradition and varied the form in each his sets.
 
A prelude and fugue in E flat major must also be mentioned here. Mention has frequently been made of J. Jakob Froberger, of Halle, who, in the middle of the seventeenth century, was one of the most prominent masters of the clavier and organ, in Germany. Although a native of Central Germany, he had devoted himself chiefly to the southern type of organ-music, just then raised to its zenith by Frescobaldi in Rome. But his performances were known and valued throughout Germany, least of all, indeed, in his own native province since his education had left him unfamiliar with the chorale form but much more in the north. It has been already noticed that his toccatas contributed to the formation of the North German fugue-form, consisting of several sections. With regard to free organ composition Froberger stands about half-way between the northern and southern masters. We are told that in the book belonging to Bach's elder brother, which he secretly transcribed for himself in Ohrdruf, there were pieces by Froberger, so that he had made this master's acquaintance when quite a boy. The northern masters, of whom he learnt in later life, had, it is true, long since overtaken Froberger, but they still referred to him, and did not hinder the delight which Bach, determined by his earliest impressions, took in his works. That this was actually the case, is shown by Adlung, a personal friend of Bach, who says : " Froberger was held at that time in high honour by the late Bach, of Leipzig, although he was somewhat antiquated." But in the nature of the case, it cannot be thought that Froberger had any important or direct influence on Bach through his own works ; the principal elements of Froberger's genius were probably transmitted to him through the northern masters, with whom he stood in closer connection than with Froberger.

In fact the only work where beside or beneath Buxtehude's manner that of Froberger appears at all, is this same prelude and fugue. It was a favourite device with this master to display at the beginning and end of his toccatas a kind of passage-writing accompanied with chords now lying above and now underneath ; these passages consist of notes of different values irregularly mixed, and are easily recognisable by this restless character. From such a germ grew the pre- lude of Buxtehude, who, however, added the elements of proportion, order, and development; his "finales" or perorations, ingenious as they are, are allied to the finale passages of Froberger's toccatas. Bach's composition reminds us strongly of Froberger, not only in the form of the running passages (e.g., the phrase of zig-zag descending semiquavers) and the massive chords, but also in the repetition of the fugue in a form adorned with trivial figures which have no inner connection with it, expanded to a length which in later times the composer never permitted. On the other hand, the passages have a quieter flow and more connection by means of imitation, as in the works of Buxtehude. Both influences seem to me less conspicuous in the fugue ; the theme has not sufficient motion for the Liibeck master, and the style of contrapuntal invention is not his, while, on the other hand, the harmony is too complicated for Froberger.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on April 07, 2017, 05:00:30 AM
Below is an excerpt from a 19th century book written by Spitta. In addition, Bach varied the form of the suite in his solo violin partitas and cello suites. The form of the suite for instrumental music was established by Froberger.It originally contained Allemande, Courante, Sarabande, and Gigue. Bach followed the tradition and varied the form in each his sets.
 
A prelude and fugue in E flat major must also be mentioned here. Mention has frequently been made of J. Jakob Froberger, of Halle, who, in the middle of the seventeenth century, was one of the most prominent masters of the clavier and organ, in Germany. Although a native of Central Germany, he had devoted himself chiefly to the southern type of organ-music, just then raised to its zenith by Frescobaldi in Rome. But his performances were known and valued throughout Germany, least of all, indeed, in his own native province since his education had left him unfamiliar with the chorale form but much more in the north. It has been already noticed that his toccatas contributed to the formation of the North German fugue-form, consisting of several sections. With regard to free organ composition Froberger stands about half-way between the northern and southern masters. We are told that in the book belonging to Bach's elder brother, which he secretly transcribed for himself in Ohrdruf, there were pieces by Froberger, so that he had made this master's acquaintance when quite a boy. The northern masters, of whom he learnt in later life, had, it is true, long since overtaken Froberger, but they still referred to him, and did not hinder the delight which Bach, determined by his earliest impressions, took in his works. That this was actually the case, is shown by Adlung, a personal friend of Bach, who says : " Froberger was held at that time in high honour by the late Bach, of Leipzig, although he was somewhat antiquated." But in the nature of the case, it cannot be thought that Froberger had any important or direct influence on Bach through his own works ; the principal elements of Froberger's genius were probably transmitted to him through the northern masters, with whom he stood in closer connection than with Froberger.

In fact the only work where beside or beneath Buxtehude's manner that of Froberger appears at all, is this same prelude and fugue. It was a favourite device with this master to display at the beginning and end of his toccatas a kind of passage-writing accompanied with chords now lying above and now underneath ; these passages consist of notes of different values irregularly mixed, and are easily recognisable by this restless character. From such a germ grew the pre- lude of Buxtehude, who, however, added the elements of proportion, order, and development; his "finales" or perorations, ingenious as they are, are allied to the finale passages of Froberger's toccatas. Bach's composition reminds us strongly of Froberger, not only in the form of the running passages (e.g., the phrase of zig-zag descending semiquavers) and the massive chords, but also in the repetition of the fugue in a form adorned with trivial figures which have no inner connection with it, expanded to a length which in later times the composer never permitted. On the other hand, the passages have a quieter flow and more connection by means of imitation, as in the works of Buxtehude. Both influences seem to me less conspicuous in the fugue ; the theme has not sufficient motion for the Liibeck master, and the style of contrapuntal invention is not his, while, on the other hand, the harmony is too complicated for Froberger.

I'm straining to get all the musicology here but it's interesting. Froberger is a strange duck. Sometimes he seems more well-placed in the atmospherics of French music. Yet, his way of organizing gets through in Bach. Well, he's not fancy-free at all like the French. There's a lot of emotional control (to the breaking point?). It's easy to forget the idea of form because Froberger has so much less musical breadth and is so much moodier than Bach.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on April 07, 2017, 06:42:12 AM
I'm straining to get all the musicology here but it's interesting. Froberger is a strange duck. Sometimes he seems more well-placed in the atmospherics of French music. Yet, his way of organizing gets through in Bach. Well, he's not fancy-free at all like the French. There's a lot of emotional control (to the breaking point?). It's easy to forget the idea of form because Froberger has so much less musical breadth and is so much moodier than Bach.

You should listen to the Froberger suites that Glen Wilson released last year partly because they're arranged chronologically. So you can hear the way his ideas about music change. There's a lot more to Froberger than the death music he wrote at the end of his life.

Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on June 27, 2017, 03:11:50 AM
(http://frabernardo.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/fb_1703213_froberger_bogner_BACK.jpg)


A new Froberger recording by Johannes Maria Bogner, who uses a clavichord. The timbres of the instrument are so rich that Bogner can use them  as means of expression. Similarly for the dynamic variation. The music sounds good played like this.

I prefer it to Tuma's second - I'll cherish it along with Tuma's first and Dart's.





Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on June 28, 2017, 04:59:01 AM
(http://frabernardo.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/fb_1703213_froberger_bogner_BACK.jpg)


A new Froberger recording by Johannes Maria Bogner, who uses a clavichord. The timbres of the instrument are so rich that Bogner can use them  as means of expression. Similarly for the dynamic variation. The music sounds good played like this.

I prefer it to Tuma's second - I'll cherish it along with Tuma's first and Dart's.
Great! Thanks. I just purchased this.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on July 09, 2017, 11:23:25 AM
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/naxos/large/4260307432133.jpg)

Listening again to Johannes Maria Bogner on a nice copy of a Christofori clavichord, a bit more critically. One new thing that these interpretations bring is Froberger quasi- Empfindsamkeit - he doesn't always play like that, the Partita on Mayerin and some of the capriccios at the end are relatively phlegmatic I think. The instrument and the unusual approach make it a  valuable contribution IMO.

I've always assumed that Johannes Maria Bogner is a man - if that's correct, what's the cover of the CD about?
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Jo498 on July 09, 2017, 11:40:12 PM
Bogner is a bald bespectacled male, you can find pictures in the web and even a facebook presence. I don't know what the cover is about. (A woman with a hunting hat searching for Froberger's traces?)
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on July 20, 2017, 08:53:33 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/dFb1fECwk2o

Froberger meditation on a chromatic harpsichord.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on September 24, 2017, 04:06:06 AM
(http://duo-coloquintes.fr/images/assets/Couverture-disque.png)
This looks like an interesting recording. I can't believe no one has recorded Froberger on the piano. I know the music is difficult to translate on piano...still, everything else has been tried. Are Couperin and Rameau really that much easier for the big furniture? You'd think someone would have given it a go.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on September 24, 2017, 04:52:50 AM
Sokolov played Froberger on the piano, I think what he did sounds good, after all we all know that a piano is just a loud clavichord. A music student, piano,  once said to me that he started to play Froberger and he demonstrated it to the early music people in his university, but they wrinkled their noses and said it's as silly as playing Couperin on a bagpipe.

Pianophiles tend to like simple hummable melodies and foot tapping rhythms, and in my experience they can't get their little heads round Froberger's music.

Claudio Columbo has released a commercial recording of Froberger using some sort of piano, I don't think it's very interesting.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on September 24, 2017, 11:37:09 PM
Sokolov played Froberger on the piano, I think what he did sounds good, after all we all know that a piano is just a loud clavichord. A music student, piano,  once said to me that he started to play Froberger and he demonstrated it to the early music people in his university, but they wrinkled their noses and said it's as silly as playing Couperin on a bagpipe.

Pianophiles tend to like simple hummable melodies and foot tapping rhythms, and in my experience they can't get their little heads round Froberger's music.

Claudio Columbo has released a commercial recording of Froberger using some sort of piano, I don't think it's very interesting.
I wish I could get a hold of the Sokolov. I take your explanation. I mean, Couperin and Rameau made super hummable music. Still...aren't pianists looking for new ground (ok, where I live, in Japan, I've seen NO evidence for this statement)? Here is something ripe for a genius album to come along and rock the world! After all, there's lots to pick and choose from. One would think this would be in the pike. Who wants another Chopin?!?   
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on September 24, 2017, 11:53:02 PM
I wish I could get a hold of the Sokolov. I take your explanation. I mean, Couperin and Rameau made super hummable music. Still...aren't pianists looking for new ground (ok, where I live, in Japan, I've seen NO evidence for this statement)? Here is something ripe for a genius album to come along and rock the world! After all, there's lots to pick and choose from. One would think this would be in the pike. Who wants another Chopin?!?

I'll send you the Sokolov later today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on September 25, 2017, 02:27:44 AM
I'll send you the Sokolov later today or tomorrow.
yay!!!!!!!! Thanks!
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on September 28, 2017, 03:46:26 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51bQquJT3dL._SS500.jpg)

Volume 3 of Richard Egarr's Froberger series is one of the baroque keyboard recording which means the most to me, and which has to a certain extent formed my own musical taste.

The selection of music in the first half is almost all quite severe, in that the interest comes primarily not from melody, rhythm or variation, but from counterpoint. It is almost all quite serious too: there are moments of jubilation and even light heartedness, but they are rare.  What makes Egarr so special here is that he finds in these toccatas, capricci and ricercari something both touching and tender.

The second half is given over to suites, but again the tone is serious and spiritual.

On harpsichord Egarr is a great great master: he manages to be simultaneously calm and passionate, yet another example of paradox which now seems to me to be at the heart of all early music, maybe all music. Maybe all art. The emotions he evokes in the suites are bizarre: there is something almost nightmarish about what he makes of suite xviii, for example. And just wait till you hear what he makes of Toccatas XV and XVII! And yet his way of playing is not without a certain grandeur either: another quasi-paradox there - both grand and frightening.

Basically we have here a recording which touches the soul, and which shows both composer and performer as poets of the highest order.

There's a good balance of organ and harpsichord music in the first half. Sound is absolutely fine.
Would you say that Egarr is also less "personal," "flatter," more "direct" or "restrained" than than others on the market? I seem to have a lot of Froberger in my collection now. Egarr choses the driest sound too. Something attracts me lately to this style. I think with something like Bach I feel a more universal connection. With Froberger or Frescobaldi, I feel I am really traveling to another world with totally different references. And with Egarr, I feel it's even more mysterious in a way.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on September 28, 2017, 06:04:26 AM
Would you say that Egarr is also less "personal," "flatter," more "direct" or "restrained" than than others on the market? I seem to have a lot of Froberger in my collection now. Egarr choses the driest sound too. Something attracts me lately to this style. I think with something like Bach I feel a more universal connection. With Froberger or Frescobaldi, I feel I am really traveling to another world with totally different references. And with Egarr, I feel it's even more mysterious in a way.

Try Vartolo and Tilney.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 28, 2017, 06:16:20 AM

This looks like an interesting recording. I can't believe no one has recorded Froberger on the piano. I know the music is difficult to translate on piano...still, everything else has been tried. Are Couperin and Rameau really that much easier for the big furniture? You'd think someone would have given it a go.

Andrew Rangell plays a couple of Froberger pieces on piano on his Bridge to Bach album. I do wish more pianists would explore this early baroque keyboard material. If you can play Bach on piano, why not this other stuff?
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on September 28, 2017, 06:23:12 AM
Andrew Rangell plays a couple of Froberger pieces on piano on his Bridge to Bach album.

If you like what he does there you'll like Francesco Tristano Schlime's Frescobaldi recording, which has a similar feeling of a stoned jazz pianist in a club in the early hours of the morning. I've grown to like Schlime a lot, I'm sure he could make something of Froberger.

Pierre Chalmeau has a Louis Couperin piano recording. I've only heard it once, so won't comment.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on September 28, 2017, 06:59:27 AM

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/815XPMsCIcL._SY355_.jpg)
An odd recording: I just bought one track: "Meditation sur ma mort future NB Memento mori Froberger" played by Dylan Sauerwald on what sounds like lautenwerk: not my favorite instrument but it's not bad here.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 28, 2017, 08:20:33 AM
If you like what he does there you'll like Francesco Tristano Schlime's Frescobaldi recording, which has a similar feeling of a stoned jazz pianist in a club in the early hours of the morning.

Thanks for the rec - it's available on Amazon for a mere $74.98.

A "stoned jazz" approach seems to fit these early keyboard composers. There's a sense of unsettled forms, as if they're still working out how the music is supposed to go.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on September 28, 2017, 02:42:48 PM
Thanks for the rec - it's available on Amazon for a mere $74.98.

A "stoned jazz" approach seems to fit these early keyboard composers. There's a sense of unsettled forms, as if they're still working out how the music is supposed to go.
I saw that too. Too bad! As I've been saying, someone should come along again with recording of these works on piano. It's not well chartered waters for pianists. Someone might do L. Couperin, Froberger and Frescobaldi. Maybe Sweelinck too. On one recording. But maybe the public is not clamoring for it. 
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on September 28, 2017, 07:56:07 PM
I saw that too. Too bad! As I've been saying, someone should come along again with recording of these works on piano. It's not well chartered waters for pianists. Someone might do L. Couperin, Froberger and Frescobaldi. Maybe Sweelinck too. On one recording. But maybe the public is not clamoring for it.

There's Daniel Ben Pienaar's Gibbons, some pianist recorded some Bull, and Schlime recorded some Buxtehude.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 29, 2017, 05:13:02 AM
There's Daniel Ben Pienaar's Gibbons, some pianist recorded some Bull, and Schlime recorded some Buxtehude.

That's Alan Feinberg's Basically Bull.

Also the aforementioned Rangell Bridge to Bach. And who can forget the granddaddy of them all: Gould's Consort of Musicke!

The fact that these "albums" have titles highlights their novelty character.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on September 29, 2017, 06:38:57 AM
I'm most attracted to Egarr for Froberger these days. I got the Vartolo and I think I will enjoy it in the future. Clearly, he works his own kind of magic on the music. Maybe it's just a phase, but I like this kind of "flat," subdued, almost dry style of Egarr. I can't quite put my finger on why I like it so much. When I bought volumes one and two of Egarr's Froberger a few years back, it did nothing for me. Now I find myself really enjoying Egarr more than anyone else. It's pure as the afternoon sun. 
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on September 29, 2017, 11:18:53 AM
The reason I keep beating a drum for Vartolo's late Froberger is that it is incredibly dark, like a cold hard and hopeless glimpse into the void. The first time I heard it I could not believe my ears, and to some extent the shock of it has never worn off, because of the complete absence of comfort, consolation.

But more importantly I'm forgetting someone with a dry style you may like in Froberger - Kenneth Gilbert.

Egarr's Froberger is quite early, at the same time he recorded some Louis Couperin on a CD called Four Harpsichord Suites for The Sun King. I just mention it because you may find it worth hearing, given your response to the Froberger. I prefer his later Louis Couperin myself.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on September 29, 2017, 02:49:40 PM
The reason I keep beating a drum for Vartolo's late Froberger is that it is incredibly dark, like a cold hard and hopeless glimpse into the void. The first time I heard it I could not believe my ears, and to some extent the shock of it has never worn off, because of the complete absence of comfort, consolation.

But more importantly I'm forgetting someone with a dry style you may like in Froberger - Kenneth Gilbert.

Egarr's Froberger is quite early, at the same time he recorded some Louis Couperin on a CD called Four Harpsichord Suites for The Sun King. I just mention it because you may find it worth hearing, given your response to the Froberger. I prefer his later Louis Couperin myself.
I think I'll spend time with the Vartolo today. I wonder if Froberger thought of himself as a grim sort of fellow?
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on September 29, 2017, 09:48:44 PM
(http://prod.naive.naive.nbs-test.com/img/front/pho/works/1200x1200/001938.jpg) Verlet also doles out a nice dollop of melancholy. I'm very fond of this. She can be touching too - as in the fantasia. Love that meantone! Vertolo is pure misery! In a good way!   
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on October 02, 2017, 03:55:54 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51fIprTapdL._SR600%2C315_PIWhiteStrip%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C35_PIAmznPrime%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C-5_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg) Pamela Ruiter-Feenstra gives us a luxurious, plush and beautiful Froberger. I'm all about Mr. Froberger these days. 
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on October 03, 2017, 05:08:11 AM
The magic trick of performing Froberger really delights me. Of course it depends on which part of the repertoire is done, and what kind of instrument and recoding choices as well. Still. Vartolo plays a sad, bereft and desolate Froberger, Verlet a nervous and forlorn one. With Pamela Ruiter-Feenstra we can really hear the influence on Louis Couperin; it's a lovely, dreamy and lush-sounding performance. Egarr is interesting to me for his baroque restraint. I quite like it even though, in a way, he does much less than all the others. That's a kind of magic too: expressing something pure. I'm not sure where to put Van Asperen yet except I do like his recording. I think he is on the grand side, perhaps. I have to say, Pamela Ruiter-Feenstra is great. I highly recommend her recording. Reminds me of Sempe's Couperin. 
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on October 03, 2017, 08:15:47 AM
The magic trick of performing Froberger really delights me. Of course it depends on which part of the repertoire is done, and what kind of instrument and recoding choices as well. Still. Vartolo plays a sad, bereft and desolate Froberger, Verlet a nervous and forlorn one. With Pamela Ruiter-Feenstra we can really hear the influence on Louis Couperin; it's a lovely, dreamy and lush-sounding performance. Egarr is interesting to me for his baroque restraint. I quite like it even though, in a way, he does much less than all the others. That's a kind of magic too: expressing something pure. I'm not sure where to put Van Asperen yet except I do like his recording. I think he is on the grand side, perhaps. I have to say, Pamela Ruiter-Feenstra is great. I highly recommend her recording. Reminds me of Sempe's Couperin.

For a postmodern approach try Jane Chapman; for Froberger Empfindsamer style try Johannes Maria Bogner; for a galant Froberger try Anne Marie Dragosits. There's also Glen Wilson to think about, who just may be the best of the lot.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on October 03, 2017, 03:43:55 PM
For a postmodern approach try Jane Chapman; for Froberger Empfindsamer style try Johannes Maria Bogner; for a galant Froberger try Anne Marie Dragosits. There's also Glen Wilson to think about, who just may be the best of the lot.
NOW you’re just trying to bankrupt me! And I’ve a baby on the way!
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on October 03, 2017, 05:11:43 PM
For a postmodern approach try Jane Chapman; for Froberger Empfindsamer style try Johannes Maria Bogner; for a galant Froberger try Anne Marie Dragosits. There's also Glen Wilson to think about, who just may be the best of the lot.
why do you think Wilson I’d best?
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on October 03, 2017, 08:04:03 PM
why do you think Wilson I’d best?

Because of the drama.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: JCBuckley on October 04, 2017, 01:54:09 AM
Anyone have a view on Alina Rotaru's Froberger?
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on October 04, 2017, 02:42:48 AM
Anyone have a view on Alina Rotaru's Froberger?
I'm not sure how to characterize it, but I think it's good. Maybe dramatic...highly spirited and intense...
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: JCBuckley on October 04, 2017, 05:55:38 AM
Thank you. I know at least one reviewer had some misgivings about the Ruckers instrument that she used for the recording, but the excerpt that I've heard sounded wonderful, I thought. Dramatic, as you say.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on November 26, 2017, 07:07:26 PM
Egarr's Auff Die Maÿerin is splendid on organ. Very dreamy and soft like clouds.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 09, 2018, 10:46:23 PM
I've been listening to the Rémy CPO disks of Suites. My first hearing of Froberger. Love them.

Do you think the Brilliant box is for me?
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on January 09, 2018, 11:25:21 PM


Do you think the Brilliant box is for me?

Go on!  Treat yourself. It's a competent and complete edition, so what's not to like?
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: The One on January 09, 2018, 11:32:37 PM
I've been listening to the Rémy CPO disks of Suites. My first hearing of Froberger. Love them.

Do you think the Brilliant box is for me?
Get these three plus Rampe as a bonus and you are all set

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/010/MI0001010029.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51mgnDB0UYL._SY355_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51J5gQWs6sL._SX300_QL70_.jpg)

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/329/MI0003329511.jpg)
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on January 15, 2018, 01:43:20 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51gcZT14QaL.jpg)

This CD from Parlement de Musique is a real revelation for the suite by Michael Bulyovsky, who proves himself to be a sensational Neo-Frobergerian, I'd never heard of him before and I'd be very keen to hear more of his music. I'm also glad to meet the suite by Johann Gumprecht, who I'd also never come across before, and whose simple melodic music is not at all unattractive.

Anne Zilberajch shows herself more than able to play the Froberger suites, her performances are poised and graceful and a great joy to hear.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: (: premont :) on January 15, 2018, 02:39:56 PM

This CD from Parlement de Musique is a real revelation for the suite by Michael Bulyovsky, who proves himself to be a sensational Neo-Frobergerian, I'd never heard of him before and I'd be very keen to hear more of his music. I'm also glad to meet the suite by Johann Gumprecht, who I'd also never come across before, and whose simple melodic music is not at all unattractive.

Anne Zilberajch shows herself more than able to play the Froberger suites, her performances are poised and graceful and a great joy to hear.

I am afraid, that this suite in b flat minor is the only existing work by Michael Bulyovsky. It is contained in a manuscript assumed to be written by him. There are in the manuscript several suites by Froberger and a few suites by others, among them his own suite. He lived at a time, where meantone tuning was still prevalent, so b flat minor must be considered rather audacious. 

You can see the manuscript on the IMSLP home page:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Composers#fcfrom:Bu
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 07, 2018, 12:38:29 PM
The big box arrived recently I have begun to listen to it. Delighted on to hear the 'usignuoli' (Nightingale) stop used on track 3 of disk 1 (Toccata in G FbWV103).

 :D
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on February 08, 2018, 12:13:18 PM
The big box arrived recently I have begun to listen to it. Delighted on to hear the 'usignuoli' (Nightingale) stop used on track 3 of disk 1 (Toccata in G FbWV103).

 :D

Daniel Boccaccio and Jeremy Joseph also recorded this on an organ, both fundamentally different from Stella, less colourful, much more serious and noble. Joseph uses a very nice organ

(https://i.scdn.co/image/030a0f2269f4d07bd62f1178e62c01e870e30053)
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: HIPster on February 11, 2018, 11:42:43 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51gcZT14QaL.jpg)

This CD from Parlement de Musique is a real revelation for the suite by Michael Bulyovsky, who proves himself to be a sensational Neo-Frobergerian, I'd never heard of him before and I'd be very keen to hear more of his music. I'm also glad to meet the suite by Johann Gumprecht, who I'd also never come across before, and whose simple melodic music is not at all unattractive.

Anne Zilberajch shows herself more than able to play the Froberger suites, her performances are poised and graceful and a great joy to hear.

Anyone know of a source for a reasonably priced copy of this disc?

Looks very fine!

Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on February 11, 2018, 01:58:15 PM
That CD demonstrates conclusively the superiority of the harpsichord over the violin. The violin sonatas are utterly trivial.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on February 12, 2018, 11:00:42 PM
I've been listening to recordings of FbWV 617, a late suite in F major, I think it's one of Froberger's major masterpieces. The two outer movements, an allemande and a sarabande, are fabulous. So far I've managed to find Wilson, Rampe, Stella, Asperen, Egarr, Baiano and Claudio Colombo. Are there any more?

All of them seem good to me, apart from Stella and Colombo.

Stella's approach is very much about top line cantabile, and he relegates all the other voices to the background. This is combined with tempos which are on the slow side. I find my mind wondering in the allemande.  His style in the wonderful sarabande, where he uses a lute stop throughout, and adopts a lumbering pulse and tempo, sounds goofy to me, and emotionally shallow.

Colombo's tasteful modesty is endearing, but his approach is naive and dutiful. In French you'd say he's "bon enfant" and I did indeed feel like I was listening to a kid run through the music after hours and hours of practice. Nevertheless, hats off to him for having a go on piano!

 I like Wilson very much, for the drama, the inner life, and the range of darker emotions expressed.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Que on February 13, 2018, 12:53:52 AM

All of them seem good to me, apart from Stella and Columbo.

Stella's approach is very much about top line cantabile, and he relegates all the other voices to the background. This is combined with tempos which are on the slow side. I find my mind wondering in the allemande.  His style in the wonderful sarabande, where he uses a lute stop throughout, and adopts a lumbering pulse and tempo, sounds goofy to me, and emotionally shallow.

I absolutely agree with you. All in all, I found Stella's complete set a mixed bag. He simply doesn't "get" Froberger's idiom in the harpsichord works. Aimless and one dimensional IMO. The more Italian oriented (Frescobaldi) organ works however, are mostly very well done in spirited and joyful performances. Definitely a lighter touch in comparison to Van Asperen.

Q
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on February 13, 2018, 04:16:48 AM
I went on to listen to the suite that comes before, the G major FbWV 616, and Asperen has to be heard to be believed. It's in the first of his Froberger CDs, which he's subtitled "the programmatic suites" and he gives a title to the allemande - repraesentans monticidium Frobergii. I found this note online here

https://sscm-jscm.org/v13/no1/schulenberg.html#_edn78

Quote
"sur le subject d’un chemin montaigneux” in SA, is described in Dl as “repraesentans monticidium”—possibly an avalanche (“Bergsturz,” in Rasch and Dirksen, “Eine neue Quelle,” 143), or perhaps merely a “tumble down the hill” (“Sturz vom Berg,” in Bob van Asperen, “Neue Erkenntnisse über die ‘Allemande, faite en passant le Rhin’ (Theil 1),” Concerto 191 (March 2004): 26).

No one else plays it as dramatically as Asperen that I've found. Tumble down a hill is right, and I'd love to see a translation of Asperen's paper.  Not Egarr, Stella, Wilson, Baiano or Klosiewicz are as representational, so I guess it's disputed that its programmatic (I haven't read all that article yet.) Klosiewicz is rather good in his way. 

Anyway it does look as though van Asperen has made a special study of the representational music so I'm going to have to explore what he has to say about them, both in performance and in writing.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 13, 2018, 11:43:05 PM
Obviously I'm a novice with Frogberger, but what others are complaining about in Stella's interpretation is exactly what I like. I like the slowness and the mysticism, because it reminds me of contemporary lute music by the likes of the Gaultiers and Gallot &c

I will listen to the reinterpretations in due course, of course. :D
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Que on February 14, 2018, 12:19:43 AM
I think it boils down to how you see Froberger.
Because of the versatility of his music that incorporates many influences - English, Italian (he was a pupil of Frescobaldi), and last but not least: French (he was a very close friend to Louis Couperin) - Froberger is many things to many people... 8)

Stella chose clearly for the Italian/ Frescobaldi angle, with its slownes, hesitations and phrasing.
Which works with the pieces for organ, but is IMO dead wrong in the harpsichord works....
His approach is reinforced by the use of a rather small and dry sounding harpsichord.

Q
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on March 10, 2018, 12:35:07 AM
(https://is5-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music/3f/81/50/mzi.pvoqmkol.jpg/268x0w.jpg)

It's astonishing how Frobergerian some of the suites here are, the more so than anything by Purcell I think. I'm thinking of the ones in C and G really. Apparently Froberger visited London and Locke mentioned him as an influence.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Vinbrulé on May 04, 2018, 07:49:11 AM
Anyone have a view on Alina Rotaru's Froberger?
IMHO Alina Rotaru's single CD is simply marvellous, very well chosen pieces, beautiful harpsichord Ruckers.
My very first Froberger disc was Siegbert Rampe's (who was Rotaru's teacher) : powerful, dramatic, intense.  Rotaru's recording stands well alongside her master's.
Tombeau pour Blancrocher is a must !!  She ends it in a surprising manner !!!!
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on May 15, 2018, 08:46:17 PM
(http://www.orestedetommaso.com/media/images/user-images/20607/gallery_thumbs/271732/5/FrobergerCD.gif)

I think this new recording by Oreste de Tommaso is very interesting, well worth catching, his essay on the music is here

http://www.orestedetommaso.com/cd_notes_froberger.html

Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 18, 2018, 01:20:13 AM
How do you actually buy the Tommaso disk?
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on May 18, 2018, 03:43:10 AM
How do you actually buy the Tommaso disk?
I downloaded via Amazon. I know it’s not everyone’s choice for good sound. Anyway, another great recommendation by Mandryka!
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 22, 2018, 07:29:15 PM
(http://www.orestedetommaso.com/media/images/user-images/20607/gallery_thumbs/271732/5/FrobergerCD.gif)

I think this new recording by Oreste de Tommaso is very interesting, well worth catching, his essay on the music is here

http://www.orestedetommaso.com/cd_notes_froberger.html

I found this on iTunes and downloaded it, very strange recording, you have to have it turned down very low otherwise it sounds awful, but the arrangements are very compelling.
It made me think how I'd like the hear some Froberger arranged for lute. Has anyone done this?
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on May 23, 2018, 04:27:06 AM
I found this on iTunes and downloaded it, very strange recording, you have to have it turned down very low otherwise it sounds awful, but the arrangements are very compelling.
It made me think how I'd like the hear some Froberger arranged for lute. Has anyone done this?
I had the same thought about lute.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on May 23, 2018, 11:08:25 AM
I'm sure I've heard some Froberger on lute but I can't remember the details, if I ever find it again I'll mention it.

I'm so used to listening to quiet instruments, viols and harpsichords, that I never noticed a problem with the sound of Oreste de Tommaso's CD, my stereo is mostly turned down low. I think it sounds pretty truthful.  I'm glad people seem to find it stimulating. I know that solo music for viol was pretty widespread, and that violists made transcriptions. Froberger played viol. I hear the CD through Qobuz, which will have better sound than amazon and possibly itunes too.

I see that Oreste de Tommaso plans on releasing a recording of some transcriptions Corelli made of the Bach cello suites -- for some sort of  5 string instrument

.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: milk on May 23, 2018, 01:29:55 PM
Johannes Jacob Froberger (1616-1667) : 6 Partite for Solo Cello - CD booklet notes

The practice of transcription holds a prominent place in the baroque era, not only responding to a pragmatic interest that finds solved the problem of of coming up with new musical ideas from scratch. Adapting and elaborating a musical idea to the possibilities and idiom of the new instrumental means poses an interesting task to the arranger, who must pick the essence of its content and transform it, making the new transcribed work autonomous in its own right. For example, J.S. Bach reinvents the Prelude of the Third Partita into the amazing Ouverture of Cantata BWV29, that featuring concertato organ, trumpets, strings and continuo results satisfactorily autonomous from the violin version with which shares its musical content.

In the spirit of the age, and at the light of the composing tradition for a solo bowed instrument, my transcriptions are destined to a five-string cello, a typology that must have been very popular until the end of the 18th century. This instrument is the bass member of the “viole da braccio” family, that in this instance is played vertically, and it benefits from the tradition of composing for solo violin. But even more than being influenced by this, the style of composing for solo cello is deeply affected by the rich tradition of composing for the lute and the viola da gamba. These organologically distinct families of instruments have their own bass members, that share with the five- string cello the low-octave extension. Double stops and chords play nicely and easily on the violin, especially by virtue of its thin treble range, whereas on bass instruments it is more effective a style of horizontal polyphony. Horizontal polyphony may be described as the musical counterpart of the painting technique of “trompe l’œil”, by which the eye is deceived to see three dimensions on a two-dimension surface.

The renowned cosmopolitan composer Froberger remains an inspirational figure both for his contemporaries and for future generations, as in composing his Partite he is instrumental in the development of the Suite as a genre. In these Partite, his style rarely takes overtly the shape of counterpoint, but rather follows closely the “stil brisé” of baroque lutenists and the extension of a baroque lute. Froberger visits Paris, he is friend with Huygens, comes into contact with the great masters of the lute Denis and Ennemond Gaultier Le Vieux, Blancrocher, and with the violist-lutenist Nicolas Hotman. All the musical “entourage” of the court of Versailles affects deeply Froberger, who newly elaborates these influences into his own personal idioms. His Partite, rich of broken lines, are well suited to be adapted to an instrument such as the five-string cello. If this is more limited, compared to the harpsichord – with respect to the possible number of notes playable simultaneously - it certainly offers interesting opportunities in terms of articulation of sound, dynamics and resonance.

Allemandes, Gigues, Courantes and Sarabandes flowing one after the other constitute what Kircher defines as “stylus choraichus”, overtly based on the step units of French dance. The hierarchy of the beats within phrases is unequivocal. Thesis and arsis - strong and weak accents -alternate, infusing living energy into the typical steps of dance in a circular and harmonious natural flow. This flow pulsates regularly, the very idea of a regular “tactus” so much held in estimation by the masters of Renaissance, becomes here a structural element. Speaking-music is the prominent feature of the Allemandes, where their content is inspired to the rethorical figures of speeches, these ones not necessarily always declamed aloud. The character of each dance becomes a diversifying building element as these Partite are often cyclical in including monothematic ideas.

In these transcriptions, my objective consists of imitating the “stil brisé” of lutenists that had also been successfully employed by violists, such as Alfonso Ferrabosco, Maugars e N. Hotman, who used to play both the viol and the lute. In this style of playing, broken fragments of lines imply their complete parts and create the illusion that polyphony is at work, whereas the instrument playing is only one, albeit this becomes independent in presenting both a melodic line and a fundamental bass. I have also chosen to use different tunings, in common with the contemporary practice of the Baroque . Widely documented in the contemporary sources of the lute, “viole da braccio” and viols, this practice explores into the possibility of widening the sound-palette of each instrument, searching for an ideal sonority suited to each work. As a typical example, Biber experiments in his Mystery and Rosary Sonatas different tuning on a violin, imitating the lyra-viol, with her numerous possibilities of tuning. Thus in these Partite I have used four different tunings: one in C G d a d’, another in C G d g c’, another one in E G d a e’, and one in Eb Bb f c’, with the fifth string tuned to AAb. Special effects of resonating overtones, chords and multiple stops that would be otherwise impossible to obtain, become possible almost by magic, thanks to the adoption of the new tunings.

The principle of resonance, fundamental to the musical aesthetic of the Baroque, had been inherited from the Renaissance, together with its poetical and philosophical implications. The contemporary techniques of instrument-making tend all towards satisfying this essential and vital principle. Lutes are set up with double strings, the courses, viols are built as lyra-viols with symphathetic strings, the “da braccio” family flourishes into the viole d’amore. Even in the Classical period, instruments such as the baryton, much favoured by the Prince Esterhazy and enriched by the compositions by F.J. Haydn, still reflect the contemporary musical taste and the importance given to this fundamental principle.

My cello is stringed in gut, as gut strings facilitate a clear sound-attack and provide opportunities in choosing amid the consonant syllabs of articulation. The colour-palette offers wide choices and facilitates pursuing the different parts in perspective at play. The dynamic range is wider compared to what it can be obtained with strings made of other materials. The bow that I use is of a convex shape, with a fixed-frog, following the common usage of the 17th and 18th centuries.

The baroque cello deserves some more attention : which kind of instrument is it really? Recent musicological research shows us that this instrument exists in a variety of formats, from the small enough to be played on your arm, to the large “church bass”, also known as “basse de violon” in France and tuned to Bb in the orchestra of Lully, or even in Eb as a “basse de Lorraine”. In addition to this variety of formats, the number of strings, by no means restricted to the four of the classic type, includes the typologies with five and six strings. These are cited by the authoritative sources by Matheson, Walther and Brossard, finding their counterpart in iconographic evidence.

There seems to be unanimous agreement within the contemporary iconography in representing players who hold the bow with the under-hand grip. This evidence fully concords with the famous and well-known account by Charles Burney, who in his chronicles tells us of a meeting with Vandini, the cellist who used to play with Tartini. The former still performed with the under-hand bow grip toward the end of the 18th century. Not only is this grip functional to the natural alternation of the push and pull bow strokes that breathe life into the musical phrase, but also facilitate the changing of string. Conversely to modern practice, changing string is sought after, as it enhances the resonance of the instrument.

Worth of note is the fact that many cellos were fretted, just as viols and lutes. Drawings by Stradivari have come down to us that shows his calculations to fit frets on a neck, before this was modified, alas common destiny of so many baroque instruments. A fret, by no means limited to being a visual aid for fingers to find their place on the strings, is essentially a sound-mechanism to imitate the resonance of the open string as much as possible.

Although the evolutionary path showed by the French school at the end of the 18th century will lead to the standardised format of a cello with four strings, with a fretless neck and played with a bow-grip held in the same manner as on the violin, I have let the idea of a sound that is characteristic of the Baroque guide me. It is exactly in this idea of sound that the Suite lives its Golden Age.

- Oreste De Tommaso

 
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on May 23, 2018, 08:50:23 PM
Tilman Hoppstock has recorded a Froberger suite on guitar, and in fact I think that Andres Segovia recorded a bit of Froberger. Nothing on lute that I can remember yet.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on June 01, 2018, 11:24:34 AM
As to Van Asperen's organ recordings - I have to date vols. 5 & 6 - I can understand your hesitations…. I think it is good, and certainly good enough for me to continue and complete the series.
The use of nice organs and the amazing recording quality of Aelous weigh in favour of Van Asperen as well. Plus Froberger organ recordings are not exactly thick on the ground...

But they are not "da bomb" as harpsichord are…. In a way they remind me of how Van Asperen used to sound on the harpsichord: studious, on the conservative side. I can imagine other players to infuse some more life into it. Andre Marcon comes to mind (he did a miscellaneous recital that includes some Froberger on DIVOX), also expert in the Southern Germanic organ School, Joseph Kelemen. To my surprise he did an entire Froberger disc on Arte Nova that I need to track down… Another candidate might be Stefano Molardi.

PS Now Aeolus has concluded the entire series a boxed reissue might be in the cards? ::)

Perhaps better to wait and see, Harry! :D

Q

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81KcGuvL7zL._SX355_.jpg)

Right, well over the past few days I’ve been listening to Vol 7, the Capriccios, played on the Norden Schnitger, it’s wonderful: music, performance, organ, sound, booklet essay - all wonderful. Off the top of my head I can’t think of a better recordng devoted to Froberger’s Italianate music on organ. The CD is, IMO, the summit of the Asperen Froberger series. 
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Que on June 01, 2018, 10:03:17 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81KcGuvL7zL._SX355_.jpg)

Right, well over the past few days I’ve been listening to Vol 7, the Capriccios, played on the Norden Schnitger, it’s wonderful: music, performance, organ, sound, booklet essay - all wonderful. Off the top of my head I can’t think of a better recordng devoted to Froberger’s Italianate music on organ. The CD is, IMO, the summit of the Asperen Froberger series.

You're preaching to the choir!  :D I have the entire keyboard series now, and it is all anyone could wish for.... (except for the price...)

The complete set by Simone Stella (Brilliant) has quite some fans too, and his approach to the organ works has a lighter touch and is more frivolous than the more profound Van Asperen.

Q
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on June 10, 2018, 08:57:41 AM
(http://frabernardo.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/fb_1609113_froberger_gluexam_BACK.jpg). (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51GFjWxojvL._SS500.jpg)

One thing that I find really haunting is a little Fantasia that Glüxam plays on organ, FbWV 208. No one else has recorded it on keyboard that I can find, though there is a viol performance. The Duo Coliquintes booklet is well researched and they confidently attribute it to Froberger, though they say that their source is in a viol anthology, I don’t know if they mean to suggest that there is no other source. Anyway better on organ. It’s very simple, probably early or maybe not reliably by Froberger at all. Beautiful.

Is it on Asperen’s set? Or Stella’s? Or Egarr? I’m probably going to embarrass myself now and find that it’s been recorded loads of times! [Found it played by Stella, rather routinely. No one would ever describe what he does as "haunting" I don't think. ]
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mr. Minnow on June 11, 2018, 03:48:08 PM
You're preaching to the choir!  :D I have the entire keyboard series now, and it is all anyone could wish for.... (except for the price...)

The complete set by Simone Stella (Brilliant) has quite some fans too, and his approach to the organ works has a lighter touch and is more frivolous than the more profound Van Asperen.

Q

Do you think the Van Asperen series is worth getting for those like me who already have Stella's set? I also have Rampe's two discs on MDG and his Virgin Veritas x2 double, as well as a 2CD set on CPO and Glen Wilson's double on Naxos, but as Van Asperen's is a complete set I'm considering it. However, the "cheapest" I can find it is the offer from Aeolus - all 8 volumes for 135 euros plus whatever they charge for shipping. That is not, to put it mildly, a casual purchase, but if it's really worth it I'll start putting some cash aside and hopefully pick it up in a month or two.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on June 11, 2018, 08:53:35 PM
Do you think the Van Asperen series is worth getting for those like me who already have Stella's set? I also have Rampe's two discs on MDG and his Virgin Veritas x2 double, as well as a 2CD set on CPO and Glen Wilson's double on Naxos, but as Van Asperen's is a complete set I'm considering it. However, the "cheapest" I can find it is the offer from Aeolus - all 8 volumes for 135 euros plus whatever they charge for shipping. That is not, to put it mildly, a casual purchase, but if it's really worth it I'll start putting some cash aside and hopefully pick it up in a month or two.

One thing that may or may not be a factor for you to consider is that, if you buy the Asperen recordings, you will end up with a some very thoroughly researched essays on the music, this at a time when there are no serious books dedicated to the composer - indeed as far as I know the only scholarly book is in French  and is rare and expensive (J J Froberger, Musicien Européen (Klincksiek 1998), I haven’t read it, I think it’s a collection of papers from a conference.)

I do not know whether I enjoy Egarr’s Froberger recordings more than Asperen’s.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on June 12, 2018, 04:12:23 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91ktuOafTbL._SX569_.jpg)

Comparative listening to Froberger’s later toccatas is quite revealing about what Asperen is up to, I focussed on Toccata 12 (Leonhardt, Egarr, Vartolo), 15 (Baiano), 18 (Egarr, Leonhardt) and 19 (Glüxam, Rotaru)

I would say that the two things that characterise Asperen in these pieces are a desire to promote their coherence and his sensitivity to the affective possibilities in the music. The result is more linear than we may expect (I don’t say that that’s a weakness necessarily) and more poignant. His harpsichord is very well recorded, and it is a quiet subtle instrument rather than an in your face brilliant one. To some extent what Asperen does reminds me of  Leonhardt’s Frescobaldi on Alpha, though I’d have to go back to listen to see whether there’s anything to be made of that.
 
The highlight of the experience included Glüxam’s organ performance of the 19th toccata - the organ music at the end of his Froberger disc is turning out to be a real revelation. Another highlight was the rediscovery of Vartolo in FbWV 112 -  Vartolo’s  Froberger is just wonderful.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on June 19, 2018, 04:25:34 AM
Do you think the Van Asperen series is worth getting for those like me who already have Stella's set? I also have Rampe's two discs on MDG and his Virgin Veritas x2 double, as well as a 2CD set on CPO and Glen Wilson's double on Naxos

I have listened to all of Asperen and some of Stella since you made that post. And I now say this with confidence: Asperen’s set is indeed worth getting even for those who, like you, already have Stella, Rampe, Rémy on CPO and Wilson if you are interested in the ricercari, toccatas, capriccios. What you have is very good for suites, and I personally would say that Vartolo is a greater priority given you have Wilson and Rampe, even though Asperen has its own interesting ideas about how the suites should go.

It’s very good to have the ricercari and capriccios collected together, with Asperen’s notes, the CDs have helped me to appreciate Froberger’s Italian style much more.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mr. Minnow on June 19, 2018, 05:44:41 AM
I have listened to all of Asperen and some of Stella since you made that post. And I now say this with confidence: Asperen’s set is indeed worth getting even for those who, like you, already have Stella, Rampe, Rémy on CPO and Wilson if you are interested in the ricercari, toccatas, capriccios. What you have is very good for suites, and I personally would say that Vartolo is a greater priority given you have Wilson and Rampe, even though Asperen has its own interesting ideas about how the suites should go.

It’s very good to have the ricercari and capriccios collected together, with Asperen’s notes, the CDs have helped me to appreciate Froberger’s Italian style much more.

Many thanks for this! I'll start saving some cash to get Asperen's series. Vartolo's double CD on Naxos is on the way - I saw it on ebay for the grand sum of £2.58, which was just too good a bargain to resist. 
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Vinbrulé on June 19, 2018, 08:02:26 AM
Many thanks for this! I'll start saving some cash to get Asperen's series. Vartolo's double CD on Naxos is on the way - I saw it on ebay for the grand sum of £2.58, which was just too good a bargain to resist.
Another Vartolo's double CD is on the way   :D :D
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mr. Minnow on June 28, 2018, 03:09:46 PM
I have listened to all of Asperen and some of Stella since you made that post. And I now say this with confidence: Asperen’s set is indeed worth getting even for those who, like you, already have Stella, Rampe, Rémy on CPO and Wilson if you are interested in the ricercari, toccatas, capriccios. What you have is very good for suites, and I personally would say that Vartolo is a greater priority given you have Wilson and Rampe, even though Asperen has its own interesting ideas about how the suites should go.

It’s very good to have the ricercari and capriccios collected together, with Asperen’s notes, the CDs have helped me to appreciate Froberger’s Italian style much more.

I meant to ask if Asperen's set really is a complete one as Aeolus say it is. His series consists of 11 discs whereas Stella's box has 16, and five discs is clearly quite a difference. Is it like complete sets of Bach's organ music, where the degree of completeness and number of discs depends on which works are considered authentic and which are excluded on the grounds of doubtful attribution? I'll still get Asperen's series when I have the cash for it whether it's complete or not, I was just wondering about the apparent discrepancy with Stella's set.   
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on June 28, 2018, 07:56:01 PM
I meant to ask if Asperen's set really is a complete one as Aeolus say it is. His series consists of 11 discs whereas Stella's box has 16, and five discs is clearly quite a difference. Is it like complete sets of Bach's organ music, where the degree of completeness and number of discs depends on which works are considered authentic and which are excluded on the grounds of doubtful attribution? I'll still get Asperen's series when I have the cash for it whether it's complete or not, I was just wondering about the apparent discrepancy with Stella's set.

Stella recorded work “from secondary sources” which Asperen omitted, I’m not sure what “secondary sources” means or  whether it implies that their authorship is disputable. Maybe someone else can say whether the booklet casts light on this, though this review doesn't fill me with hope (from amazon in the uk)

Quote
Booklet notes totally inadequate, particularly information about music from secondary sources. His organ playing is good but somewhat stiff. He is certainly not a harpsichordist as he treats it like an organ and has no concept of making sound on the instrument - the suites (Partitas) are stiff and colourless. The biggest sin is transposiing the f-sharp minor Ricercar into e minor - utterly criminal...guess he couldn't take the exreme nature of this piece. As someone who was really excited to hear this music interpreted by another obvious Froberger fan I was massively underwhelmed. There are too many keyboard players out there now seeming to speed through and record the complete works of someone without true thought and passion. Beautiful organs on in this set though.
Title: Re: Johann Jakob Froberger
Post by: Mandryka on June 29, 2018, 12:24:15 AM
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Booklet notes totally inadequate, particularly information about music from secondary sources. His organ playing is good but somewhat stiff. He is certainly not a harpsichordist as he treats it like an organ and has no concept of making sound on the instrument - the suites (Partitas) are stiff and colourless. The biggest sin is transposiing the f-sharp minor Ricercar into e minor - utterly criminal...guess he couldn't take the exreme nature of this piece. As someone who was really excited to hear this music interpreted by another obvious Froberger fan I was massively underwhelmed. There are too many keyboard players out there now seeming to speed through and record the complete works of someone without true thought and passion. Beautiful organs on in this set though.

The F sharp minor ricercar  mentioned in this review is FbWV 412. There are recordings by Boccaccio, Asperen, Coudurier, Stella, Rampe, Tilney and Egarr. Just thinking of organ performances, Egarr seems the most "extreme" harmonically  (St Martin’s Cuijk, 1/5 comma meantone, I’m not sure whether he's transposed it) Asperen thinks that the ricercar is evidence that Froberger had moved away from meantone tuning, but he doesn’t elaborate and his organ is just described as unequally tuned (now I’m looking at the details, I’m starting to think that maybe the notes aren’t as good as I thought in Asperen’s set.) On organ, Asperen and Egarr seem to me to be very soulful in it. Coudurier is exciting, thrilling, and tough and extrovert.