GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Opera and Vocal => Topic started by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on October 02, 2008, 02:55:16 AM

Title: Winterreise
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on October 02, 2008, 02:55:16 AM
Oh people, just let you know, I'm a lucky man. For the first time I listened to Schuberts Winterreise, this work goes so well with me, the Autumn, melancholy ... I often feel like an einsamer Wanderer, I like walking through lonesome nature ... I'm a lucky man.  - Fischer-Dieskau on DG -
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: mn dave on October 02, 2008, 06:18:01 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on October 02, 2008, 02:55:16 AM
Oh people, just let you know, I'm a lucky man. For the first time I listened to Schuberts Winterreise, this work goes so well with me, the Autumn, melancholy ... I often feel like an einsamer Wanderer, I like walking through lonesome nature ... I'm a lucky man.  - Fischer-Dieskau on DG -

Yep. You are the lucky one. I remember the first time I heard it.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Keemun on October 04, 2008, 07:38:21 PM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on October 02, 2008, 02:55:16 AM
Oh people, just let you know, I'm a lucky man. For the first time I listened to Schuberts Winterreise, this work goes so well with me, the Autumn, melancholy ... I often feel like an einsamer Wanderer, I like walking through lonesome nature ... I'm a lucky man.  - Fischer-Dieskau on DG -

I just checked out that CD from the library and loaded it on my iPod.  I haven't listened to it yet, but I'm looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: rappy on October 05, 2008, 01:40:19 AM
You will feel even luckier if you now get the Pregardien recording  8)
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on October 05, 2008, 06:18:33 AM
Excellent recommendations but be adventurous and get the DVD of a stunning film with Ian Bostridge. He does have, what I believe, is a perfect Schubertian voice.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=168978&album_group=2
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: mozartsneighbor on October 05, 2008, 12:41:51 PM
Discovering the Winterreise was an incredible journey for me.
As another poster pointed out already above the Pregardien/Staier version is very interesting. Also, I like Gerhaher out of the recent crop of baritones.
Enjoy!
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: knight66 on October 05, 2008, 02:06:32 PM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on October 05, 2008, 06:18:33 AM
Excellent recommendations but be adventurous and get the DVD of a stunning film with Ian Bostridge. He does have, what I believe, is a perfect Schubertian voice.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=168978&album_group=2

Now here Hilde, we part company. I am as allergic to Bostridge as I am to Peter Pears. He certainly highlights verbal acuity, but he is inclined to break up the musical lines into sub phrases and he squeezes the tone like toothpaste. The actual sound of the voice is usually, though not always, dry. I think this recording was made a few years ago, since which his mannerisms have become even more pronounced.

Although Schubert did write the cycle for the tenor voice, he sanctioned the Baratone transpositions. I prefer the lower voice, Hotter and Dieskau are amongst my favourites.

For a different take on the piece, I recommend the chamber arrangement made by Hans Zender. The tenor there is Hans Peter Blochwitz. This is not an interpretation from which to learn the cycle, but it does reinvent it using modern sonorities. Zender is wonderful at conveying weather and the sounds of nature. He highlights these and it sends you back to the piano version to hear how Schubert initially conveyed all these sounds. It is not a straight forward transcription, some songs have extended introductions or interludes. It comes out at almost 90 minutes. A different journey.

Mike
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 05, 2008, 02:25:41 PM
I like the first song, the rest I can't ever get excited about. I have the DFD/Demus recording on DG.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on October 05, 2008, 02:35:39 PM
Quote from: knight on October 05, 2008, 02:06:32 PM

Although Schubert did write the cycle for the tenor voice, he sanctioned the Baratone transpositions. I prefer the lower voice, Hotter and Dieskau are amongst my favourites.

Mike

Parting is such sweet sorrow... but we part only on this one issue, nothing permanent about it, I hope.  :-*

A surprisingly good Winterreise is the one I have with Martti Talvela, on a BIS recording, even a notch deeper than the other baritone performances.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: knight66 on October 05, 2008, 02:51:57 PM
I would think that Talvela's voice would be striking. I also have Robert Holl, who I feel is not really inside the piece, it does not grab you.

That cannot be said of Brigitte Fassbaender's version which is a triumph, full-on and involving.

Mike
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: greg on October 05, 2008, 04:18:34 PM
It's been awhile for me. Hey, this is a good remember, though, I might have to listen to this:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510VRWK2BSL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

tomorrow

isee this:
http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Die-Winterreise-Fischer-Dieskau/dp/B000001GQE/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1223252194&sr=8-1
is the highest-rated version, though.....
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on October 05, 2008, 07:28:54 PM
Quote from: knight on October 05, 2008, 02:51:57 PM

That cannot be said of Brigitte Fassbaender's version which is a triumph, full-on and involving.

Mike

Now we are back together again because I much prefer Fassbaender over the schmalzige Fischer-Dieskau.

Fassbaender is such a consummate musical genius that even Sergiu Celibidache deigned to perform with her his one and only Gustav Mahler work: Kindertotenlieder.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: knight66 on October 05, 2008, 10:33:35 PM
Fassbaender's recordings do not seem to me to get enough attention. Her pianist in the Schubert is the composer Aribert Reiman. The two work closely in terms of the colours being used and the atmosphere created. Schubert ensured in these songs that the pianist had the same importance as the singer. The piano part is always important, but here is vital.

They also colluded in a version of Schwanengesang. They reorder the songs to achieve a stronger thread of narrative. Fassbaender takes us on an alarming journey to the point of derangement; strong meat and probably one of the greatest lieder discs ever laid down.

In neither set of songs does it matter in the least that a number of the songs are considered the property of the male voice.

Lis, in what way is Fischer Dieskau sentimentalise Winterreise? He recorded it a number of times and certainly, his later discs show the voice with markedly less glamor, I would have thought he could more be accused of hectoring in those.

Mike

Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on October 06, 2008, 01:31:02 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on October 05, 2008, 07:28:54 PMNow we are back together again because I much prefer Fassbaender over the schmalzige Fischer-Dieskau.
I like Schmalz :)
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on October 06, 2008, 06:14:58 AM
The Fischer-Dieskau recording I have is from 1984 and the pianist is Philippe Bianconi.

Probably should not be comparing, but after hearing Prégardien, Talvela, Bostridge and Fassbaender, Fischer-Dieskau sounds a tad too sentimental here and there.

Has Keenlyside ever done it?
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Wendell_E on October 06, 2008, 10:01:09 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on October 06, 2008, 06:14:58 AM
Has Keenlyside ever done it?

He's sung and danced it!  At the same time.

http://www.simonkeenlyside.info/Articles/Perform/Recital/20041019+WinterreiseMelbo.html

No recordings, AFAIK.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on October 06, 2008, 10:55:53 AM
I have his other Trisha Brown ballet/concert disc, the Monteverdi L'Orfeo and when I watch it, I don't watch it, I only listen to him sing. Somehow his marionette-like movements don't do a thing for me!  :-\
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: knight66 on October 06, 2008, 11:05:31 AM
Lis, I cannot imagine he is in fact dancing in the Schubert. Although I have not seen it, I imagine he is like Orpheus walking through the set while the furies dance round him.

Mike
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: The new erato on October 06, 2008, 11:47:13 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on October 06, 2008, 10:55:53 AM
the Monteverdi L'Orfeo and when I watch it, I don't watch it, I only listen to him sing.
I love that perfomance. Its spellbinding rhytm and intricate cheoreography creates a unique suggestive performance. Pure magic. And few recorded Orfeos can match his singing.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on October 06, 2008, 11:52:14 AM
Quote from: erato on October 06, 2008, 11:47:13 AM
And few recorded Orfeos can match his singing.

That is exactly the reason why I don't watch it, just listen to it!
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on October 06, 2008, 11:11:29 PM
Quote from: Wendell_E on October 06, 2008, 10:01:09 AMhttp://www.simonkeenlyside.info/Articles/Perform/Recital/20041019+WinterreiseMelbo.html
Oh, once again a disgustingly poor and blue background. Do people go to theater in order to suffer?
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 28, 2011, 04:56:45 AM
Help me fill this gap in my collection!

I've been YouTubing and sampling here and there. Predictably, guys like Fischer-Dieskau and Quasthoff make a good impression. Somewhat to my surprise, I'm also really impressed by Christine Schäfer's version - sounds modernistic, almost like Schubert as filtered through Schoenberg.

Then there are versions for hurdy-gurdy, chamber orchestra, and God only knows what else. Please advise, you Schubertologists and Liederologists!
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Marc on May 28, 2011, 05:06:41 AM
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau is a solid choice in this cycle, f.i. in his DG recording with Gerald Moore.
Personally, I've always considered the one with Christoph Prégardien very convincing. He's impressively accompanied by Andreas Staier on a beautiful sounding fortepiano.

(http://i56.tinypic.com/2upybrd.jpg)
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 28, 2011, 05:28:19 AM
My favorite version:

(http://www.musicaomnia.org/images/mo0108-fc272x233.jpg)

The seasoned Max van Egmond is just perfect, but almost that important: the gorgeous fortepiano played by Penelope Crawford is a real and warm partner for him. A generous sample can be listened to HERE (http://www.musicaomnia.org/romantics.asp).


8) 
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 28, 2011, 05:32:39 AM
Tremendous choice here and many of them very good. I think the top chocies would be DFD (with Demus), Gura, Fassbaender, and Goerne (Hyperion). But you won't go wrong with Quasthoff, Pregardien (mentioned by Marc), Schreier, or Bostridge either. And I am forgetting some I am sure. I generally don't like the female voice for this one, so am not very familiar with it myself, but have heard good things (meaning Schafer).
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 28, 2011, 05:53:19 AM
This is one of those threads where every version is going to be recommended, I fear  :D  When I'm in the mood for Fischer-Dieskau, I turn to the version with Barenboim. But really, I prefer a tenor (the higher voice sounding more youthful than a baritone). Schreier and Schiff are, I think, incomparable.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gmgpictures/Winter.jpg)

I really like the Hans Zender orchestration too.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/SchWinZen.jpg)


Sarge


Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 28, 2011, 06:28:49 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 28, 2011, 05:53:19 AM
This is one of those threads where every version is going to be recommended, I fear  :D 

OK...in view of that, what's a "safe," standard rec? (like, the one everyone can agree is the 2nd best, or something like that)
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 28, 2011, 06:43:48 AM
Quote from: Velimir on May 28, 2011, 06:28:49 AM
OK...in view of that, what's a "safe," standard rec? (like, the one everyone can agree is the 2nd best, or something like that)

After that new definition I have crossed out my recommendation.   :D
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 28, 2011, 06:53:32 AM
Quote from: Velimir on May 28, 2011, 06:28:49 AM
OK...in view of that, what's a "safe," standard rec? (like, the one everyone can agree is the 2nd best, or something like that)
I would suggest something different. If you liked one that you heard or one of the named singers caught your eye - just go with that. This is a harder piece than most to pick a 'best' as there are so many variables: sound of the voice, articulation, stress, interpretation, etc. I love Goerne - I just love the sound of his voice (youthful soundings) and how he blends with the pianist (who is also excellent). But I can't argue with Marc's or Sarge's pick (for example) - they sing it wonderfully as well. Once you get to this point it is just a matter of preferance.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Mandryka on May 28, 2011, 07:10:14 AM
The Winterreise to get, in my opinion, is Schreier/Richter. I think  it is the greatest lieder recording ever made.

If you really want a baritone, then I think you should hear Hotter sing it. I prefer the second recording with Moore because I think it's  contemplative and introspective, which I like. But some people I know also cherish the first, often because they feel that it evokes a very personal response to the horrors of the second world war.



Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Cato on May 28, 2011, 07:18:01 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 28, 2011, 06:53:32 AM
I would suggest something different. If you liked one that you heard or one of the named singers caught your eye - just go with that. This is a harder piece than most to pick a 'best' as there are so many variables: sound of the voice, articulation, stress, interpretation, etc. I love Goerne - I just love the sound of his voice (youthful soundings) and how he blends with the pianist (who is also excellent). But I can't argue with Marc's or Sarge's pick (for example) - they sing it wonderfully as well. Once you get to this point it is just a matter of preference.

Hans Hotter is always an all-around fave!   0:)

If possible, a fascinating experience is to listen to the middle 3 of Fischer-Dieskau's performances, two with Gerald Moore in the 60's and 70's and one from 1979 or 1980 with Daniel Barenboim.

1963:

http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Winterreise-Great-Recordings-Century/dp/B00006I0DH/ref=sr_1_11?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1306595245&sr=1-11 (http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Winterreise-Great-Recordings-Century/dp/B00006I0DH/ref=sr_1_11?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1306595245&sr=1-11)

1971 (or so it seems)

http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Winterreise-D-911-Dietrich-Fischer-Dieskau/dp/B000001G60/ref=sr_1_13?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1306595708&sr=1-13 (http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Winterreise-D-911-Dietrich-Fischer-Dieskau/dp/B000001G60/ref=sr_1_13?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1306595708&sr=1-13)

1979/1980

http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Winterreise-Fischer-Dieskau/dp/B0000012ZU/ref=sr_1_36?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1306595070&sr=1-36 (http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Winterreise-Fischer-Dieskau/dp/B0000012ZU/ref=sr_1_36?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1306595070&sr=1-36)
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Todd on May 28, 2011, 07:53:01 AM
Quote from: Velimir on May 28, 2011, 04:56:45 AMSomewhat to my surprise, I'm also really impressed by Christine Schäfer's version - sounds modernistic, almost like Schubert as filtered through Schoenberg.


I really enjoy Ms Schäfer's version, and agree that it is a more "modern" take.  But you really must get Fischer-Dieskau in this work.  Doesn't really matter which one I think, though his pairings with Gerald Moore are reliably good.  His version with Demus is darned good, too.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: mjwal on May 29, 2011, 06:23:34 AM
I like the Zender orchestration, too, Sarge, though some have dismissed it. I don't know either of the Schreier versions - I shall obtain the one with Richter the next time I want to listen to a new version, because of Mandryka's fervent recommendation. I have never taken to F-D in this cycle, having imprinted on Hotter in the work. There are, by the way, two very similar early (1942 and '43) Hotter recordings with Raucheisen - the 42 Polydor version is better - making the one with Moore the 4th after the recording w/Schröter, which >I haven't heard. I like two versions with forte-piano, the very first - possibly - by Ernst Haefliger w/Dähler, and the more recent one by Prégardien w/Staier recommended by Marc.
My absolute favourite is a very historical performance recorded almost in the hour of Germany's defeat by Peter Anders w/Raucheisen, a searing performance. I think everyone should know this.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: springrite on May 29, 2011, 07:32:06 AM
Quote from: mjwal on May 29, 2011, 06:23:34 AM
My absolute favourite is a very historical performance recorded almost in the hour of Germany's defeat by Peter Anders w/Raucheisen, a searing performance. I think everyone should know this.

What is your take on his 1948 recording (Cologne)?
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: knight66 on May 29, 2011, 07:34:20 AM
Another vote for that fantasmagorical Zender homage. I love it, but it cannot be someone's first go at the piece. So for a classic rendition, almost any of those listed above, apart from Bostridge, I don't think he carries the legato lines properly.

Here is one not so far mentioned. A man who has a special way with words. He also has a superb partner in Gerold Huber.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51W7DhRpJfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Mike
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: mjwal on May 29, 2011, 07:54:42 AM
Quote from: springrite on May 29, 2011, 07:32:06 AM
What is your take on his 1948 recording (Cologne)?
I had that on LP long before I managed to find the '45 recording, and only listened to it once. His voice has already hardened (from singing roles that overextended him, I believe), and there is something metallically marmoreal about it all as I remember (it's been 30 years if it's been a day. I'll dig the discs out and re-listen - watch this space) - little remains of the fluidity and control of vocal texture the younger Anders had in spades (in his early Mozart recordings, for instance).
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 29, 2011, 12:30:58 PM
Another Zender fan here. I heard his version on the radio during the 1990s, a live broadcast from the Holland Festival (iirc), and found it absolutely fascinating.


In the more 'regular' versions I love Hotter, Fassbaender and Fischer-Dieskau.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 29, 2011, 10:28:49 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 29, 2011, 12:30:58 PM
Another Zender fan here. I heard his version on the radio during the 1990s, a live broadcast from the Holland Festival (iirc), and found it absolutely fascinating.

What specifically did Zender do to the piece? Is "composed interpretation" just a fancy term for "orchestration"?
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 29, 2011, 11:00:52 PM
Quote from: Velimir on May 29, 2011, 10:28:49 PM
What specifically did Zender do to the piece? Is "composed interpretation" just a fancy term for "orchestration"?


I think Sarge can tell you more precisely, because I only heard it once. But no, it isn't just an orchestration, though it contains one. It recreates the work, adding bridges between the songs, for instance (if I remember correctly!) It is a 20th-century re-imagining, showing (me) quite startlingly that Schubert's songs are also related to Kurt Weill's. Usually I don't like conductors/composers interfering with a work, but in this case I do, because Zender is faithful to the spirit of Schubert.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: knight66 on May 29, 2011, 11:05:44 PM
No, it is much more than orchestrated. A chamber orchestra is used with some percussion instruments. It is much longer in the Zender guise. The Hans Hotter version lasts 75 minutes, Zender's totals 90 minutes.

He provides extended introductions, for example in the first song, there is a long percussive introduction which creeps towards you evoking the step by step tramp of a long journey. The violin bow hits the bridge, a horn blares. It provides a chilly landscape and an apt setting for the singer. That song lasts over three minutes longer than it normally does. In the middle of 'Gute Nacht' he provides a violent discordant passage with the singer moving into declaimed sprechgesang.

In other songs he takes themes and provides interpolated orchestral passages between verses.

All this reads to me like he does violence to Schubert, but it works wonderfully and is clearly a reworking done out of love and admiration. He plays up the phantasmagorical aspects of Schubert's cycle evoking weather in all its violence, wind, storms rain. It has to be heard before it is dismissed.

The performance itself is virtuosic. Blochwitz has never sounded better or more engaged.

Mike
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 29, 2011, 11:08:29 PM
Well, Mike, it seems my memory is still in working order. Thanks!
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: knight66 on May 29, 2011, 11:17:09 PM
Perhaps you will be inspired to buy it and keep it!

Mike
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 29, 2011, 11:36:25 PM
I won't forget.  ;D
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: mjwal on May 30, 2011, 12:19:34 PM
I had forgotten the Fassbaender - it becomes an expressionist masterpiece on the order of Schoenberg's Buch der hängenden Gärten in her rendition ("on the order of" does not mean similar in character or of equal worth - to avoid heated disputes!). Perhaps Elena Gerhardt's version was like this - does it exist on record? Digression: I had a much older colleague in the language school I worked in in Frankfurt who had been a pupil of Gerhardt's - she was horrified at my suggestion that "Der Lindenbaum" was about a suicidal temptation. Anyway, Fassbaender's  and Lotte Lehmann's versions are priceless, though I should not choose either as a first recommendation for a newcomer.
I have had a dramatic change of attitude since my last post. I listened to the first LP side of Peter Anders's 1948 recording this afternoon, and registered much the same objections - the voice hardening and drying out in the upper register in forte passages, and noticed how unresponsively Weissenborn bangs out the "accompaniment", how you often lose any sense of a connection between the two artists. The first song sounds hurried and unmodulated. Faster songs sound almost breathless and the German articulation suffers at times.On the other hand Anders is very expressive in passages where he can veil his tone in the mid-range; the few passages in the lower voice-range, however, sound almost unsupported and dull. No comparison with the 1945 recording - which is a record of great singing as well as a horrified look into the abyss. But...the winner of the afternoon is a recording that I pulled out on an impulse and had somehow classified under "Good for an old chap, but lacking the chops" (hey! an iambic pentameter); a recording which I do hope is on CD by now, as it is incomparable (please notice the rhetorical use of dilatio here - are you getting impatient?) and revolutionary in its whole character:
Julius Patzak w/Jörg Demus (1964 - work out how old he was).
Yes, he has no "voice" in the sense of vocal brilliance and depth; yes, he has more "voice" in the sense of character-expression than any,and I mean any, of these or other singers of the cycle that I am aware of (Hotter, F-D, Pears, Anders, Hüsch, Prégardien - no I don't know Jarnot e tutti quanti). He is the only singer I know who, instead of inhabiting ("living") a style of expression, represents the character of every phrase without resorting to rhetorical overkill (need I spell his name out?). He is the only one I am aware of who represents the bemused malice of the character as well as his self-pity and anger - that note of malice has a peculiar Austrian tone, and the self-pity something almost dreamily objective (at times the old 3/4 seems to ghostlily gyrate in the background ("glücklich ist, wer vergisst,was nicht mehr zu ändern ist"). When he gives us something like a dramatic full voice it shakes us; you know his almost whispered weary whingeing could be heard at the back of the auditorium. There is a degree of engagement with the implications of the German languge that goes way beyond F-D's rather stagey rhetoric. His Lindenbaum is audacious - there is a dizzying sequence of hesitations and heartstopping inwardnesses, an unpredictable flux which his partner at the piano fully responds to and in fact co-initiates, such is his wizardry. And there you have it: I had never expected to remark on the genius of Jörg Demus, but in this work he is unleashed, brilliant, unsettling, weaving his piano part in such a wise as to meet every slight quickening or delay with his own, creating in fact the sense that there is a second world that the singer knows nothing of - though he sings upon its crests as on an infinitely complex wave.
I haven't checked, but I hope there's a CD out there.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 30, 2011, 12:36:08 PM
Quote from: mjwal on May 30, 2011, 12:19:34 PM
I had forgotten the Fassbaender - it becomes an expressionist masterpiece on the order of Schoenberg's Buch der hängenden Gärten in her rendition ("on the order of" does not mean similar in character or of equal worth - to avoid heated disputes!). Perhaps Elena Gerhardt's version was like this - does it exist on record? Digression: I had a much older colleague in the language school I worked in in Frankfurt who had been a pupil of Gerhardt's - she was horrified at my suggestion that "Der Lindenbaum" was about a suicidal temptation. Anyway, Fassbaender's  and Lotte Lehmann's versions are priceless, though I should not choose either as a first recommendation for a newcomer.

I haven't checked, but I hope there's a CD out there.
I agree Fassbender is not a first rec, but makes a wonderful alternative.

I assume on Patzak, you mean this one (which also has a download option):
[asin]B00000HXX2[/asin]
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: knight66 on May 30, 2011, 01:08:50 PM
Thanks mjwal, very interesting. I also am impressed by Fassbaender. Expressionist is a good word, it becomes deranged. She takes it as far as I can imagine it being pushed. She has a very sympathetic and capable pianist, so often a composer can shed new light on another composer's work.

Mike
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 30, 2011, 09:55:36 PM
Quote from: mjwal on May 30, 2011, 12:19:34 PM
I had forgotten the Fassbaender - it becomes an expressionist masterpiece on the order of Schoenberg's Buch der hängenden Gärten in her rendition

mjwal, have you heard Christine Schäfer's version? I was YouTubing portions of it, and it fits the "Schoenbergian" mode very well. I also listened to bits of the Fassbaender, but I didn't much like the wobbly sound of her voice. Schäfer has a much more even tone based on what I heard.

Any1 heard the hurdy-gurdy version?
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Harry Powell on May 31, 2011, 02:27:27 AM
Besides the first Hotter cycle and young DFD, I stick to Gerhard Hüsch and Christa Ludwig. With Hüsch you probably get something very similar to what Schubert had in mind when composing. A Romantic, matter-of-fact yet deeply felt rendition. Very different from Hotter's tragic drama.

Quote from: knight66 on October 05, 2008, 02:06:32 PM
Now here Hilde, we part company. I am as allergic to Bostridge as I am to Peter Pears. He certainly highlights verbal acuity, but he is inclined to break up the musical lines into sub phrases and he squeezes the tone like toothpaste. The actual sound of the voice is usually, though not always, dry. I think this recording was made a few years ago, since which his mannerisms have become even more pronounced.

I think this comment truly summarizes my opinion on current Lieder singing. I'm repelled by people like Pregardien who can't sing "on the breath" and consequently use falsetto and crooning as their standard delivery. As for baritones I don' care at all for Goernes and Gerhahers: they're the umpteenth crop of Dieskau imitators. Now you get even the smallest nuance in the words, but they are spoken and not sung as true legato is missing.

However I'd like to put Pears aside. He was a very refined singer; Bostridge and the like are simply twee.   

I'll look for the Patzak set. In spite of his vocal weaknesses I think he would be perfect for the cycle.

Anders was a disappointment also for me.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: mjwal on May 31, 2011, 03:14:18 AM
Interesting point of view, Harry. The Hüsch is very well and movingly sung but for my taste lacking in the shock factor I feel this cycle inherently possesses - not an affair for "pure singing" IMO. And I do not find the pianist very inspiring. Ludwig rather bores me, I'm afraid. Pears was refined, almost at times too "refayned", but able to suggest profoundest melancholy in a way that "twee" (good word) Bostridge will never manage (just compare their versions of Britten's Serenade!), so that despite some inadequacy in idiomatic pronunciation his version of Winterreise, with and especially because of Britten's accompaniment, is dear to me. I did, however, find the Goerne/Brendel live quite involving, but having said that, I only listened to it once.
My favourites (a very subjective list)
1. Patzak
2. Anders
3. Hotter 1
4. Fassbaender
5. Pears
I can't comment on the young F-D - I have the LPs but haven't listened in ages - I remember vocal beauty and stagily didactic impersonation at times, where what is needed is presentation of the varying climates of character and mood within an essentially distanced frame (in the sense of ostranenie).  Listening now to Prégardien again I can see what you mean, though that bothers me less than his inability to truly characterise without a sort of comfortably psycho-melodramatic emphasis, it's a bit "awk, big dipper; bop, summer rain; Bong, Mr., bong, Mr., bong, Mr., bong." No, I retract my approval. I like the forte-piano, though.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Guido on May 31, 2011, 04:05:28 AM
Quote from: Harry Powell on May 31, 2011, 02:27:27 AM
Besides the first Hotter cycle and young DFD, I stick to Gerhard Hüsch and Christa Ludwig. With Hüsch you probably get something very similar to what Schubert had in mind when composing. A Romantic, matter-of-fact yet deeply felt rendition. Very different from Hotter's tragic drama.

I think this comment truly summarizes my opinion on current Lieder singing. I'm repelled by people like Pregardien who can't sing "on the breath" and consequently use falsetto and crooning as their standard delivery. As for baritones I don' care at all for Goernes and Gerhahers: they're the umpteenth crop of Dieskau imitators. Now you get even the smallest nuance in the words, but they are spoken and not sung as true legato is missing.

However I'd like to put Pears aside. He was a very refined singer; Bostridge and the like are simply twee.   

I'll look for the Patzak set. In spite of his vocal weaknesses I think he would be perfect for the cycle.

Anders was a disappointment also for me.

The problem with Bostridge is that he NEVER uses chest voice. Everything is sung in the head voice, which creates a superficially pretty sound, but doesn't travel at all well in the concert hall and nor is it satisfying. He is famously and proudly untrained.

I very much like Gerhaher and Andreas Schmidt. Are you a fan of DFD Harry? I thought all post war baritones were not to your taste.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 31, 2011, 04:14:14 AM
Quote from: Velimir on May 30, 2011, 09:55:36 PM
Any1 heard the hurdy-gurdy version?

I own it. I find it works best for me in small doses, a few songs at a time.


Sarge
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: knight66 on May 31, 2011, 04:43:59 AM
Harry, I understand what you mean re Gerhaher. The set I was suggesting was his much earlier recording. He actually sings on it. I heard him last year in Mahler at the Royal Albert Hall. He simply did not sing. We were treated to minimalist voice, often almost whispered, clever projection mind you.

I felt starved of sound. I have heard him since and clearly he feels this parlando method is the way to go. He could continue till he is 103 that way; as he is certainly conserving his voice. He was praised for his Wagner at Covent Garden, perhaps they gave him a megaphone.

But his early recordings are gems.

Mike
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Brahmsian on May 31, 2011, 04:53:02 AM
I'm very fond of this recording, with Canadian baritone Russell Braun and his wife Carolyn Maule at the piano:

[asin]B000BHHVPY[/asin]
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Guido on May 31, 2011, 04:57:55 AM
Quote from: knight66 on May 31, 2011, 04:43:59 AM
Harry, I understand what you mean re Gerhaher. The set I was suggesting was his much earlier recording. He actually sings on it. I heard him last year in Mahler at the Royal Albert Hall. He simply did not sing. We were treated to minimalist voice, often almost whispered, clever projection mind you.

I felt starved of sound. I have heard him since and clearly he feels this parlando method is the way to go. He could continue till he is 103 that way; as he is certainly conserving his voice. He was praised for his Wagner at Covent Garden, perhaps they gave him a megaphone.

But his early recordings are gems.

Mike

Interesting! When is early with Gerhaher? I'm not sure whether I have the early or late recording. He was rather wonderful as Wolfram at ROH I thought - certainly not stentorian, but definitely audible at all times.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: mjwal on May 31, 2011, 05:07:44 AM
I forgot to say, Velimir, that I have not heard C.Schäfer's version. I haven't really liked what I have heard of her singing, mainly because of a personal indifference to the sound she makes, but I will try again - these things often change in time (I can almost listen to Prey with pleasure nowadays...though not, perhaps, in Winterreise...).
I have two very important recordings waiting to be heard:the first Souzay, which I  have somehow almost shamefully missed, though I usually love his singing; and Schreier w/Richter. A first sampling of Souzay suggests I will only really enjoy the dreamy songs like "Frühlingstraum".
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Mandryka on May 31, 2011, 05:18:03 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on October 06, 2008, 10:01:09 AM
He's sung and danced it!  At the same time.

http://www.simonkeenlyside.info/Articles/Perform/Recital/20041019+WinterreiseMelbo.html

No recordings, AFAIK.

I saw him with his wife at the Barbican sing it, and you know what I enjoyed the dancing even more than the singing. There was a marvellous moment in Die Krähe . .  . You can imagine.

Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: knight66 on May 31, 2011, 06:16:27 AM
Quote from: Guido on May 31, 2011, 04:57:55 AM
Interesting! When is early with Gerhaher? I'm not sure whether I have the early or late recording. He was rather wonderful as Wolfram at ROH I thought - certainly not stentorian, but definitely audible at all times.

Of course, I was being facile about his Wagner; he must have put his back into it.

His early recordings are all found on Arte Nova. I have reviewed a couple of them in the vocal recital thread. His three Schubert 'cycle' discs were recorded 2001/3. More recently he was taken up by one of the major companies.

Mike
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Harry Powell on May 31, 2011, 06:18:07 AM
Quote from: knight66 on May 31, 2011, 04:43:59 AM
Harry, I understand what you mean re Gerhaher. The set I was suggesting was his much earlier recording. He actually sings on it. I heard him last year in Mahler at the Royal Albert Hall. He simply did not sing. We were treated to minimalist voice, often almost whispered, clever projection mind you.

I felt starved of sound. I have heard him since and clearly he feels this parlando method is the way to go. He could continue till he is 103 that way; as he is certainly conserving his voice. He was praised for his Wagner at Covent Garden, perhaps they gave him a megaphone.

But his early recordings are gems.

Mike

Mike, I'm really missing an applauding emoticon! The Songs of the Wayfarer from that concert you mentioned are on youtube. Some weeks ago I got really hooked on this clycle and compared several recordings. Gerhaher seemed to me a pale reflection - sorry if this isn't a common idiom in English - of Dieskau but the 62-year-old Schlusnus simply destroyed him (I promise I'll try to listen to his earlier recordings)
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Harry Powell on May 31, 2011, 06:48:41 AM
Quote from: Guido on May 31, 2011, 04:05:28 AM
The problem with Bostridge is that he NEVER uses chest voice. Everything is sung in the head voice, which creates a superficially pretty sound, but doesn't travel at all well in the concert hall and nor is it satisfying. He is famously and proudly untrained.

I very much like Gerhaher and Andreas Schmidt. Are you a fan of DFD Harry? I thought all post war baritones were not to your taste.

Ciao Guido

You are right. In Bostridge one listens to a new singing school which ignores the essential matters about producing a "classical" voice: good support, union between registers and a real top.

Of course I have a big admiration for DFD the liederist: I also appreciate many of his opera contributions (specially in his primes). The problem lies in his excessive influence on younger singers, which tend to follow him even in his defects (he had an open top and verged on falsetto when singing mezzavoce) and his intellectual approach to music. I really loved Mike's calling him "hectoring" (new word for me!). Sometimes you listen to him and you get the impression of a terribly intelligent fellow who is giving a lecture. I think it's really a pity that after DFD few people have tried to approach Lieder in the unassuming, "plain-spoken" way of Schlusnus, Hüsch, Patzak, Lehmann, etc.

Schmidt was the best gifted of the "Dieskau children". One listens to his recording of Schoeck's unknown masterpiece "Elegy" and inmediately recognizes a singer of worth. I think he destroyed his voice by imitating his Maestro's timbre (one of the worst mistakes a singer can make).

I also wanted to point out that my main objections to current Lieder singing is directed to men. Things are rather better among women.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: knight66 on May 31, 2011, 01:09:16 PM
Regarding DFD, I heard a critic on radio suggest that although he had many of his discs, they rarely came off the shelf. His reaction was that he admired DFD, but did not love his performances. With a few exceptions, I have the same reaction.

Mike
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Guido on May 31, 2011, 04:10:00 PM
Quote from: Harry Powell on May 31, 2011, 06:48:41 AM
Schmidt was the best gifted of the "Dieskau children". One listens to his recording of Schoeck's unknown masterpiece "Elegy" and inmediately recognizes a singer of worth. I think he destroyed his voice by imitating his Maestro's timbre (one of the worst mistakes a singer can make).

YES YES YES! That's precicely what I was thinking of. SO wonderful. I adore Schoeck (DFD Lebendig Begraben is also superb).

Schmidt is great in the rarely heard songs for bass baritone and orchestra by Strauss too. Haven't heard him in anything else, but just from these two recordings he is one of my favourite singers.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: mjwal on June 26, 2011, 05:59:30 AM
Quote from: knight66 on May 31, 2011, 01:09:16 PM
Regarding DFD, I heard a critic on radio suggest that although he had many of his discs, they rarely came off the shelf. His reaction was that he admired DFD, but did not love his performances. With a few exceptions, I have the same reaction.

Mike
My feelings exactly. But his early Schumann and his Mahler with Furtwängler are unforgettable. To go off on a tangent, though, I am very taken by his autobiographical reflections, Nachklang (Echoes of a Lifetime in English - the translation is said to be dodgy, though). They are very evocative of pre- and post-war Berlin, dryly humorous, without the slightest sentimentality but infused with a deep love of art and artists - in short the kind of musician's memoir that you can savour sentence for sentence (cue for a separate thread on this subject; offhand, Szigeti and Piatigorsky come to mind.)
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Mirror Image on June 28, 2011, 09:56:42 AM
How is this recording?

[asin]B003064CZK[/asin]

Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: Mirror Image on June 28, 2011, 03:10:59 PM
Has no one heard that Harmonia Mundi recording I posted above? ???
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 29, 2011, 12:20:54 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 28, 2011, 09:56:42 AM
How is this recording?

[asin]B003064CZK[/asin]
I missed your post! I think is quite good. But you can listen to them on youtube to get a feel for the voice (here is one of the songs, but there are many more there): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MVdE1_v3_8&feature=BFa&list=PL1BA46F24EBF95FEF&index=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MVdE1_v3_8&feature=BFa&list=PL1BA46F24EBF95FEF&index=1).

It is sometimes a bit declamatory, but that is not necessarily a black mark against it. His voice can be sensual and cold, both of which he uses here. And of course, he can sound like honey when he wants to. It is a good tenor version, but which you like most will depend on your tastes I think. There has been lots of discussion on some of his 'competitors' on the threads here and you may find those posts useful as well.
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: zamyrabyrd on June 29, 2011, 01:10:32 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on June 29, 2011, 12:20:54 AM
It is sometimes a bit declamatory, but that is not necessarily a black mark against it. His voice can be sensual and cold, both of which he uses here. And of course, he can sound like honey when he wants to. It is a good tenor version, but which you like most will depend on your tastes I think.

Werner Güra, a tenor, has considerable substance in his voice and also the ability to become almost transparent. The pianist, Christoph Berner, is also excellent with a beautiful tone. That particular recording is with a "Hammerflügel"?
ZB
Title: Re: Winterreise
Post by: petrarch on September 17, 2011, 07:00:34 AM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on June 29, 2011, 01:10:32 AM
Werner Güra, a tenor, has considerable substance in his voice and also the ability to become almost transparent. The pianist, Christoph Berner, is also excellent with a beautiful tone. That particular recording is with a "Hammerflügel"?

Yes, a Rönisch 1872.