Cross-posting fron "General", I know, but I think that when I was a "beginner" this listing would have been a nice thing to have, so...1 more time!
Almost 900 works listed...99 percent of which can be found on YouTube! Each entry is formatted so that you can highlight a composer/work and right click on it to open a menu which will allow you to do a quick Google/Bing search (taking you to a YouTube clip, Wikipedia entry, etc...).
A Timeline History of 20th Century Classical and Electronic Music
http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/p/timeline-history-of-20th-century.html (http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/p/timeline-history-of-20th-century.html)
A very interesting list. Some of of them might be useful pointers for beginners, others are probably a bit extreme, depending on your taste. There are a lot of pieces there I've never heard, and some I'm sure I never will, not least the following:
Arseny Avraamov: "Simfoniya gudkov" ("Symphony of factory sirens"), essentially a noise installation, employs navy ship sirens and whistles, bus and car horns, factory sirens, cannons, the foghorns of the entire Soviet flotilla in the Caspian Sea, artillery guns, machine guns, hydro-airplanes, a specially designed "whistle main," and renderings of the Internationale and Marseillaise anthems by a mass band and choir. The piece was conducted by a team of conductors using flags and pistols.
I disagree with the characterization of Schoenberg's mature style as atonal. It's a nonsensical term that was invented to disparage something the critics didn't understand, and it's also applied more or less haphazardly to mark off individual perception rather than as a mark of any real element of harmonic construction. I also disagree with the characterization of Neoromanticism as tonal. It's not at all tonal in the traditional sense.
The sooner the term and the idea of atonality die, the sooner people will actually start hearing the music thus maligned as music.
Bah...that comes off as too negative. Looks like a good list. I hope that many people are aided in their explorations.
Interesting, but it doesn't seem a ballanced or representative overview of the last 116 years. It reads more like a list of everything by the composers you like and nothing by the composers you don't like or don't know. A better introduction to you and your taste than to the era for those largely new to it.
Quote from: SimonNZ on October 22, 2016, 06:12:16 PM
Interesting, but it doesn't seem a ballanced or representative overview of the last 116 years. It reads more like a list of everything by the composers you like and nothing by the composers you don't like or don't know. A better introduction to you and your taste than to the era for those largely new to it.
I do agree that (even as a lover of the Darmstadt and Second Viennese Schools) there should probably be more of the conservative music on this list, especially after 1950 or so. It's not a matter of removing anything, just adding other things.
Can there really be 850 "essential" post-1900 works for a beginner? Isn't that impossibly daunting?
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 22, 2016, 05:58:09 PM
I disagree with the characterization of Schoenberg's mature style as atonal. It's a nonsensical term that was invented to disparage something the critics didn't understand, and it's also applied more or less haphazardly to mark off individual perception rather than as a mark of any real element of harmonic construction.
Well, Schoenberg's mature music is not tonal. So are you against these terms entirely, or do you have a different term you'd like to suggest?
Great list. But with so many it ignores the growth of concern band music >:(
Off the top of my head I can make a few suggestions. Although there are some modernistic works, most of the great concert band works sound more tonal:
Holst: Two Suites for Military Band
Holst: Hammersmith: Prelude and Scherzo
Vaughn Williams: English Folk Song Suite
Vaughn Williams: Toccata Marziale
Granger: Lincolnshire Posey
Morton Gould: West Point Symphony
Persichetti: Symphony No. 6 for Band
Persichetti: Masquerade Variations for Band
Persichetti: Parable for Band. I read a biography of Persichetti were the author claims that Persichetti band works are his masterpieces.
Hindemith: Symphony in Bb
Schoenberg: Variations for Band. One of his late tonal works.
Dello Joio: Variants on a Medieval Tune
Mendelssohn composed an Overture for Band when he was around fifteen.
Husa: Prague 1968
H. Owen Reed: La Fiesta Mexicana
Dahl: Sinfonietta for Band
I can come up with many more, but this is a start.
Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2016, 07:04:03 PM
Well, Schoenberg's mature music is not tonal. So are you against these terms entirely, or do you have a different term you'd like to suggest?
Many of his mature works certainly are not tonal, but it is fairly useful to view these works as using contrasting tools to music from the CP era (early 17th to late 19th centuries). Anyone who listens carefully to these compositions can perceive certain relationships between pitches and hear a kind of tension and release at different points in the music....but the term 'atonal' itself doesn't supply any information to what the music is....only what it is not.
Quote from: jessop on October 22, 2016, 07:16:58 PM
Many of his mature works certainly are not tonal, but it is fairly useful to view these works as using contrasting tools to music from the CP era (early 17th to late 19th centuries). Anyone who listens carefully to these compositions can perceive certain relationships between pitches and hear a kind of tension and release at different points in the music....but the term 'atonal' itself doesn't supply any information to what the music is....only what it is not.
I don't like reducing music to labels. That said, it is useful to describe music as being tonal or atonal for people who wish to use that as the most general way to find composers writing in a style they wish to investigate. Sometimes, people who have studied a subject so much they can overlook the most fundamental quality it possesses.
Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2016, 07:04:03 PM
Well, Schoenberg's mature music is not tonal. So are you against these terms entirely, or do you have a different term you'd like to suggest?
Tonal means different things to different people. If they are using it in the technical sense as meaning the system of functional triadic harmony from the 17th through early 20th centuries, then sure, it's not tonal.
But that's not what a lot of people think tonal means, and that's not the way it's used by the people who are against "atonal" music. If you think that pre-Baroque music is tonal and Debussy is tonal and The Rite of Spring is tonal, then Schoenberg's mature music must also be tonal, as it is not different vis a vis common practice tonality than any of these other things. What people
really mean when they say "atonal" is total chromaticism mixed with non-triadic harmony. That's it.
As for whether it's helpful, I think the exact opposite. It hinders understanding by putting up a mental barrier, as if the mature music of Schoenberg is somehow completely antithetical to the music of the past (or at least in terms of harmony), which is completely wrong.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 22, 2016, 06:23:20 PM
Can there really be 850 "essential" post-1900 works for a beginner? Isn't that impossibly daunting?
Of course there can't. Merriam-Webster: essential: extremely important and necessary. For a beginner ssaying 850 works are essential is begging them to find another interest. Forget about essential ands beginners, and this is interesting.
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 22, 2016, 07:46:10 PM
Tonal means different things to different people. If they are using it in the technical sense as meaning the system of functional triadic harmony from the 17th through early 20th centuries, then sure, it's not tonal.
But that's not what a lot of people think tonal means, and that's not the way it's used by the people who are against "atonal" music. If you think that pre-Baroque music is tonal and Debussy is tonal and The Rite of Spring is tonal, then Schoenberg's mature music must also be tonal, as it is not different vis a vis common practice tonality than any of these other things. What people really mean when they say "atonal" is total chromaticism mixed with non-triadic harmony. That's it.
As for whether it's helpful, I think the exact opposite. It hinders understanding by putting up a mental barrier, as if the mature music of Schoenberg is somehow completely antithetical to the music of the past (or at least in terms of harmony), which is completely wrong.
I don't really know what other people think when they hear the words "tonal" or "atonal" - which is why I don't like labels of any kind. They are reductionist and only limit an understanding of the music. If I were pressed I might say that Schoenberg was both an experimental and traditional composer. So, if that sounds confusing, just listen to .... and name a few works.
But I was curious where you were coming from, and now you've answered, and I appreciate your answer. Thanks. ;)
Thread duty:
I haven't looked at the list, since I don't like lists, which are also reductionist. :P
;)
A good list imo. Any idea on what to put into it from 2011 onward?
Quite weird that that sort of OP has been sleeping here for almost a year, without replies...
Quote from: The new erato on October 22, 2016, 07:52:02 PM
Of course there can't. Merriam-Webster: essential: extremely important and necessary. For a beginner ssaying 850 works are essential is begging them to find another interest. Forget about essential ands beginners, and this is interesting.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on October 22, 2016, 07:57:56 PM
I think it works well as a comprehensive guide (while not perfect)
Not denying your points. Still, the label is problematic.
Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2016, 07:36:10 PMThat said, it is useful to describe music as being tonal or atonal for people ..
Even Schoenberg disliked the term atonal, and he's right - it doesn't make any sense, there is no such thing. Preferred pantonal, which is a much more accurate & useful descriptor.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 22, 2016, 06:23:20 PM
Can there really be 850 "essential" post-1900 works for a beginner? Isn't that impossibly daunting?
You know what I call a guy going through his first divorce? Beginner.
Karl's point is well taken. We hear a lot of huffing on GMG about snobs and elitists. What can be more so than a list larger than most people's entire collection called an essential list for beginners? For just one century to boot!
We have people here who have been listening to music on an industrial scale for decades, many of whom will not know all those pieces. Essential for a beginner?
Quote from: James on October 23, 2016, 04:36:57 AM
Even Schoenberg disliked the term atonal, and he's right - it doesn't make any sense, there is no such thing. Preferred pantonal, which is a much more accurate & useful descriptor.
Pansinine.
Quote from: Ken B on October 23, 2016, 06:09:59 AM
You know what I call a guy going through his first divorce? Beginner.
Karl's point is well taken. We hear a lot of huffing on GMG about snobs and elitists. What can be more so than a list larger than most people's entire collection called an essential list for beginners? For just one century to boot!
We have people here who have been listening to music on an industrial scale for decades, many of whom will not know all those pieces. Essential for a beginner?
Agreed, someone is over-enthusiastic. Or needs to look-up the word 'essential.'
Quote from: Ken B on October 23, 2016, 06:09:59 AMWhat can be more so than a list larger than most people's entire collection called an essential list for beginners? For just one century to boot!
You can sum up the century with roughly a dozen essential pieces (ditto prior eras of Art music!). Challenging works or not, the best of the century is the best place for beginners to start.
Quote from: Ken B on October 23, 2016, 06:09:59 AM
We have people here who have been listening to music on an industrial scale for decades, many of whom will not know all those pieces. Essential for a beginner?
I have heard about half of them , mostly, but not exclusively, those from before WWII.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 22, 2016, 06:23:20 PM
Can there really be 850 "essential" post-1900 works for a beginner? Isn't that impossibly daunting?
The description of Birtwistle's
Pulse Shadows as an "opera" suggests that not even the blogger is completely familiar with all of them.
Quote from: DaveF on October 23, 2016, 12:43:44 PM
The description of Birtwistle's Pulse Shadows as an "opera" suggests that not even the blogger is completely familiar with all of them.
It might also be better to list them as the two works they were originally composed as. Pulse Shadows is a combination of the two, alternating movements and songs from 9 movements for string quartet and 9 settings of Celan (i think) although that is not to say that the recording of the two released by Arditti Quartet et al called 'Pulse Shadows' isn't worthy of hearing!
Btw two pieces I wouldn't hesitate to substitute for those two would be Silbury Air and Pan.
Saw this and thought I might have a go myself, but I limited myself to the 20th century only. As stated in the preamble, the main goal is to provide jumping-off points for newcomers rather than to be exhaustive, to encourage exploration by offering a few basics instead of dumping an encyclopædia at their feet and walking off patting myself on the back for being aware of 850 works of 20th century classical music...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9-PkKpTlnleS2hGSkxBTXVoWTQ/view?usp=sharing
This is my first run-through, so pointers for revision are more than welcome. Lack of Nono is nagging at me, but I'm not really familiar enough with his work to feel confident about it, I was thinking possibly Il canto sospeso or Composizione No. 1 but I don't know yet.
Quote from: Crudblud on October 23, 2016, 03:28:29 PM
Saw this and thought I might have a go myself, but I limited myself to the 20th century only. As stated in the preamble, the main goal is to provide jumping-off points for newcomers rather than to be exhaustive, to encourage exploration by offering a few basics instead of dumping an encyclopædia at their feet and walking off patting myself on the back for being aware of 850 works of 20th century classical music...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9-PkKpTlnleS2hGSkxBTXVoWTQ/view?usp=sharing
This is my first run-through, so pointers for revision are more than welcome. Lack of Nono is nagging at me, but I'm not really familiar enough with his work to feel confident about it, I was thinking possibly Il canto sospeso or Composizione No. 1 but I don't know yet.
This is very good! It seems very representative, including some more conservative composers along with the other big names of the 20th century. Perhaps there could be room for some short early tape/electronic works from the 40s/50s/60s?
Quote from: Crudblud on October 23, 2016, 03:28:29 PM
Saw this and thought I might have a go myself, but I limited myself to the 20th century only. As stated in the preamble, the main goal is to provide jumping-off points for newcomers rather than to be exhaustive, to encourage exploration by offering a few basics instead of dumping an encyclopædia at their feet and walking off patting myself on the back for being aware of 850 works of 20th century classical music...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9-PkKpTlnleS2hGSkxBTXVoWTQ/view?usp=sharing
This is my first run-through, so pointers for revision are more than welcome. Lack of Nono is nagging at me, but I'm not really familiar enough with his work to feel confident about it, I was thinking possibly Il canto sospeso or Composizione No. 1 but I don't know yet.
Well The Threepenny Opera has to be on any list. And few composers should appear twice. Only possibly Stravinsky or Debussy as they both so foundational. Less is more in lists for beginners.
Quote from: Ken B on October 23, 2016, 04:29:14 PM
Well The Threepenny Opera has to be on any list. And few composers should appear twice. Only possibly Stravinsky or Debussy as they both so foundational. Less is more in lists for beginners.
Threepenny is far too long for this. It's the same reason I chose
Kindertotenlieder over a full Mahler symphony for 1900-1909.
As for repeating composers, I've been careful not to repeat a single composer within a decade, but several major composers did undergo significant stylistic evolutions over time, and I feel these are worth exploring for beginners. Furthermore, I think they're going to appreciate having familiar names to latch onto as they move forward, especially as they hit the post-war period, when things started to move even faster than before both stylistically and technologically.
Quote from: jessop on October 23, 2016, 04:18:02 PM
This is very good! It seems very representative, including some more conservative composers along with the other big names of the 20th century. Perhaps there could be room for some short early tape/electronic works from the 40s/50s/60s?
Thanks! Yes, electronic music is the major gap right now, I threw a couple of good works in but I'm not too sure what else to include at the moment. The second revision is at least going to have Schaeffer's
Suite for 14 Instruments, which I think is a really good way to introduce basic tape/electronic concepts in the '40s.
Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2016, 07:04:03 PM
Well, Schoenberg's mature music is not tonal. So are you against these terms entirely, or do you have a different term you'd like to suggest?
A piece is atonal if it doesn't work.
Whatever, folks, love'm or loathe'em, it is pretty much uncontested that Schoenberg's pieces 'work.'
The term atonal is itself an extreme misnomer, the Latin 'a' + tonal
literally means "music without tones." Of course, there is no such thing as per the definition of Music. The relative academic meaning is music without a
tonic (and that means tonic triad) center or home base.
Ultimately, the term has become an automatic turn-off or turn-away for people who have never even sat down to give atonal music any real and unbiased listening attention, which is why, imo, it is best dropped from the vocabulary.; I do know that as terms, Modal, Tonal and Neotonal have seen next to no such misunderstanding and abuse ;-)
Think, when a piece is described as tonal -- and just how much that alone really tells you about the piece... which is actually nigh unto zip-nada... other than to let you know it is not modal or atonal, lol. I can not think of the legions of misuses of the term atonal I have read or heard (Prokofiev = 'atonal,' The double fugue from Stravinsky's
Symphony of Psalms = 'atonal.' are but a few.
Modal, Tonal, Neotonal and Atonal are but categorical terms for various
general harmonic usages, labels that will tell you next to nothing about a piece other than its most general harmonic usage. Outside of academia, I don't see much practical, or legitimate, need or use for the terms. The only thing any of those four terms as descriptors might tell you is that a piece is not one of the other three.
Better, imo, "more or less dissonant," in context with the era from whence the music comes. That is more accurate, requires more effort vs slapping Tonal or Atonal on as (too superficial and easy/glib) identifiers. Rameau and Bach, near to exact peers by date -- and of equal 'greatness' in that how high up Mount Parnassus are the composers game -- are both quite dissonant from that era. Mozart and Beethoven were both quite dissonant for their eras. Hell, even Musica Ficta in its time was considered wildly dissonant, and to unaccustomed contemporary ears it can sound pungently tangy on the dissonance front.
Consider some of the more acutely angular and dissonant serial ('atonal') music from the 1950's, and then think on the soaring late romantic lyricism of Berg's
Violin Concerto, or Schoenberg's late
Piano Concerto, veritably littered with his lingering sentimentalism for all things older from 'German music,' the interpolation of simpler old song and dance forms and other like variants within. There is also Dallapiccola, whose atonal music bears the sundry stamps of the typically Italianate; lyricism, emotive drama, etc. They're all 'atonal' by category, yet... which is why I consider modal, tonal, neotonal and atonal as being of very little real service to the general listener.
I offer you and anyone else this challenge:
Since the term Atonal is a dreadful misnomer, come up with another term for this music other than atonal. Serial is apposite, Second Viennese School, too, though less pithy, while 'neotonal,' though it applies, is a Johnny come later -- and already taken. Have at it, then ;-)
Quote from: Crudblud on October 23, 2016, 03:28:29 PM
Saw this and thought I might have a go myself, but I limited myself to the 20th century only. As stated in the preamble, the main goal is to provide jumping-off points for newcomers rather than to be exhaustive, to encourage exploration by offering a few basics instead of dumping an encyclopædia at their feet and walking off patting myself on the back for being aware of 850 works of 20th century classical music...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9-PkKpTlnleS2hGSkxBTXVoWTQ/view?usp=sharing
This is my first run-through, so pointers for revision are more than welcome. Lack of Nono is nagging at me, but I'm not really familiar enough with his work to feel confident about it, I was thinking possibly Il canto sospeso or Composizione No. 1 but I don't know yet.
I do not agree with your choice for Francis Poulenc (the sextet). For me his major works are
1) Le dialogue des Carmelites (opera)
2) The sacred music : by order of composition Salve Regina, Stabat Mater, Gloria
Quote from: Spineur on October 25, 2016, 10:01:16 AM
I do not agree with your choice for Francis Poulenc (the sextet). For me his major works are
1) Le dialogue des Carmelites (opera)
2) The sacred music : by order of composition Salve Regina, Stabat Mater, Gloria
Chamber works are a significant contribution to
Poulenc's oeuvre, but it is the late sonatas for a wind instrument (clarinet, flute, oboe) with piano accompaniment that stand apart.
Quote from: Spineur on October 25, 2016, 10:01:16 AM
I do not agree with your choice for Francis Poulenc (the sextet). For me his major works are
1) Le dialogue des Carmelites (opera)
2) The sacred music : by order of composition Salve Regina, Stabat Mater, Gloria
I think opera is significantly distinguishable from concert music that it deserves its own list, aimed at people who are specifically interested in opera. In most cases opera requires willingness on the part of the audience to engage for several hours with a single theatrical work with text sung in a foreign language. Even if you're familiar with classical music of prior eras that is a daunting prospect, let alone for a complete newcomer, and the purpose of the list is to invite, not to intimidate. I will look into those choral works, however. Thanks!
Thanks also for the suggestion of the sonatas for piano and winds, North Star!
New list, 867 essential items.
Quote from: Ken B on October 25, 2016, 12:00:50 PM
New list, 867 essential items.
Is there an editor in the house? 8)
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Quote from: Crudblud on October 23, 2016, 03:28:29 PM
Saw this and thought I might have a go myself, but I limited myself to the 20th century only. As stated in the preamble, the main goal is to provide jumping-off points for newcomers rather than to be exhaustive, to encourage exploration by offering a few basics instead of dumping an encyclopædia at their feet and walking off patting myself on the back for being aware of 850 works of 20th century classical music...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9-PkKpTlnleS2hGSkxBTXVoWTQ/view?usp=sharing
This is my first run-through, so pointers for revision are more than welcome. Lack of Nono is nagging at me, but I'm not really familiar enough with his work to feel confident about it, I was thinking possibly Il canto sospeso or Composizione No. 1 but I don't know yet.
Thanks for this. A really interesting list. I might just work my way through it, though I'm probably not a beginner.
Quote from: Ken B on October 25, 2016, 12:00:50 PM
New list, 867 essential items.
I'm trying to imagine what this person is like packing luggage for a trip away from home.
Quote from: Androcles on October 30, 2016, 01:57:18 PM
Thanks for this. A really interesting list. I might just work my way through it, though I'm probably not a beginner.
That's fine, because I respectfully question whether the list is really for a beginner.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 04, 2016, 04:40:42 AM
That's fine, because I respectfully question whether the list is really for a beginner.
My list? I believe that's what Androcles is talking about.
Thanks, btw, Androcles, hope it is of some use to you.
Your list interested me also, Crudblud, and I've made a list of a few items I was unaware of. Particularly looking forward to hearing a Harry Partch work that had escaped my attention.
Quote from: SimonNZ on November 06, 2016, 11:46:34 AM
Your list interested me also, Crudblud, and I've made a list of a few items I was unaware of. Particularly looking forward to hearing a Harry Partch work that had escaped my attention.
US Highball is a real gem, technically forming part of a thematic tetralogy with
Barstow and a couple of other pieces, all together called
The Wayward. Hope you like it!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 22, 2016, 06:23:20 PM
Can there really be 850 "essential" post-1900 works for a beginner? Isn't that impossibly daunting?
Not in any way, lol. There is far more on this list than there would be for an in-depth semester long 20th Century music lit class for undergraduate music majors, and it less replete [pedagogically lacking] as to imparting information about all the sundry styles and harmonic veins.
Still, I'll take the topic with its enthusiasm and effort to compile the list, and flawed as it is, the list itself, over the more usual near to silence on this rep ;-)
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on November 26, 2016, 03:48:33 PM
Still, I'll take the topic with its enthusiasm and effort to compile the list, and flawed as it is, the list itself, over the more usual near to silence on this rep ;-)
Valid point, that.