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The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: Mark on September 20, 2007, 02:03:01 AM

Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 20, 2007, 02:03:01 AM
Now, let me say from the outset that I sincerely hope we can have a thread to discuss the life and works of this composer (as we do for so many others), without the insane bickering and backbiting that caused the 'Sir Edward Elgar' thread to get locked. We've been there, done that - let's move on.

I want to kick things off by discussing some of Elgar's lesser-known works. I'm thinking specifically of his beautiful part-songs, of which there are some splendid examples on this CD:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/61B3RV1254L._AA240_.jpg)

Having recently acquired both this disc and Barbirolli's classic take on 'The Dream of Gerontius', I'm amazed at the variety and complexity of Elgar's vocal writing. Whatever one might think of Elgar as an orchestrator, his way with layers and textures of voices is quite something. I confess a preference for his vocal writing for smaller forces, but the way he masses sound in larger works is quite impressive.

Of the part-songs I most enjoy, 'The Shower' stands out farthest. In many respects, it puts me in mind of Stanford's 'The Blue Bird': both have a serenity about them, both seem to convey something far beneath their apparently simple words, and each seems to me to be a perfect example of knowing how much is enough. Even if one listens not to the words of 'The Shower' but to the sound as it washes over you (slight pun intended), one gets the sense that Elgar had an instinct for vocal writing - something for which, AFAIK, he's rarely given due credit.

So, Elgar and his lesser-known works. Are there any which capture your imagination? If not, what are your thoughts on his better-known material? Which performances do Elgar most justice, and which would you recommend others avoid?


(And please, try to keep things civil, folks. Thanks. :))
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on September 20, 2007, 02:24:10 AM
I love Sospiri and Prelude to the Kingdom, also "The Waggon Passes" from the late Nursery Suite.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 20, 2007, 04:28:09 AM
Quote from: Mark on September 20, 2007, 02:03:01 AM
I want to kick things off by discussing some of Elgar's lesser-known works. I'm thinking specifically of his beautiful part-songs, of which there are some splendid examples on this CD:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/61B3RV1254L._AA240_.jpg)

Thanks for kicking things off Mark. I have that CD. It's not my favorite Elgar but sometimes it's nice to listen to these part-songs.  :)

The Snow Op. 26, No. 1 is a small vocal work I'd bring up.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 20, 2007, 05:13:22 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 20, 2007, 04:28:09 AM
Thanks for kicking things off Mark.

;)

Quote from: vandermolen on September 20, 2007, 02:24:10 AM
I love Sospiri ...

I know I've heard this, and that I have it on some sampler CD somewhere (not among my main collection). I'll have to dig it out and have another listen. It's quite short, isn't it?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 20, 2007, 05:24:29 AM
Quote from: Mark on September 20, 2007, 05:13:22 AM
I'll have to dig it out and have another listen. It's quite short, isn't it?

Sospiri, Op. 70 is about 5 minutes long.

I have 4 performances of it, 2 for string/chamber orchestra and 2 for violin and piano.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 20, 2007, 05:25:49 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 20, 2007, 05:24:29 AM
Sospiri, Op. 70 is about 5 minutes long.

And it's for strings only, yes?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 20, 2007, 05:29:45 AM
Quote from: Mark on September 20, 2007, 05:25:49 AM
And it's for strings only, yes?

Strings + harp
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 20, 2007, 05:38:41 AM
Falstaff.

There, now the thread can be taken seriously  0:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 20, 2007, 05:41:44 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 20, 2007, 05:29:45 AM
Strings + harp

Yes, of course. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kullervo on September 20, 2007, 05:52:21 AM
Anyone familiar with this (rather inexpensive) disc?

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QEWZ46JFL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 20, 2007, 05:55:11 AM
Another piece which absolutely must be mentioned on the first page of any Elgar thread pretending to respectability, is the Sonata for Violin & Piano in E minor, Opus 82. Head and shoulders above the Piano Quintet, IMO, though I do enjoy the latter.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 20, 2007, 05:57:59 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 20, 2007, 05:55:11 AM
Another piece which absolutely must be mentioned on the first page of any Elgar thread pretending to respectability, is the Sonata for Violin & Piano in E minor, Opus 82. Head and shoulders above the Piano Quintet, IMO, though I do enjoy the latter.

Thanks for the tip-off. Wasn't aware of this work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 20, 2007, 06:00:35 AM
Quote from: Mark on September 20, 2007, 05:57:59 AM
Thanks for the tip-off. Wasn't aware of this work.

It was completely off my radar until Nigel Kennedy played this at Old Cabell Hall in Charlottesville.  I turned pages for his accompanist, and the piece has had me in its fell grip ever since.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 20, 2007, 06:02:50 AM
Feel I need to again plug this excellent CD, not just for its Elgar but also a stirring Walton and beautiful Finzi:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S6S4RW7WL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 20, 2007, 06:32:21 AM
When I saw Finzi: Elegy it took me a long second to realize it's not the Eclogue.  The Walton I should listen to again, too; that looks a nice disc, Mark.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 20, 2007, 06:43:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 20, 2007, 06:32:21 AM
When I saw Finzi: Elegy it took me a long second to realize it's not the Eclogue.  The Walton I should listen to again, too; that looks a nice disc, Mark.

It's superb, Karl. Buy it without delay. ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 20, 2007, 06:48:19 AM
Oh, for entirely non-musical reasons, delay is very much indicated  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 20, 2007, 06:51:46 AM
I love Sospiri ever since hearing a recording by the Academy of St. Martin's-in-the-Fields under (who else) Neville Marriner. It was an Argo disc (yes, gramophone...), IIRC. And there's an organ, too, I think (ad lib.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 20, 2007, 07:55:21 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 20, 2007, 06:51:46 AM
And there's an organ, too, I think (ad lib.)

Yes, harmonium.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on September 20, 2007, 08:06:29 AM
Quote from: Corey on September 20, 2007, 05:52:21 AM
Anyone familiar with this (rather inexpensive) disc?

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QEWZ46JFL._AA240_.jpg)

I haven't heard that one, but on the same label there is this two-disc set (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Violin-Concerto-Quartet-Quintet/dp/B0001ZM8VI) which I can recommend, it provides excellent recordings of his three major chamber works, and as (a rather large :P) bonus, a nice one of the violin concerto. The performances are pretty much the usual from British forces playing British music - unflashy and undisappointing. The music does the talking.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kullervo on September 20, 2007, 03:10:20 PM
Quote from: Lethe on September 20, 2007, 08:06:29 AM
I haven't heard that one, but on the same label there is this two-disc set (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Violin-Concerto-Quartet-Quintet/dp/B0001ZM8VI) which I can recommend, it provides excellent recordings of his three major chamber works, and as (a rather large :P) bonus, a nice one of the violin concerto. The performances are pretty much the usual from British forces playing British music - unflashy and undisappointing. The music does the talking.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Bonehelm on September 20, 2007, 04:01:40 PM
I never knew Elgar wrote such moving/touching melody...in his 1st symphony's 1st movtment's beginning...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 20, 2007, 04:05:16 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on September 20, 2007, 04:01:40 PM
I never knew Elgar wrote such moving/touching melody...in his 1st symphony's 1st movtment's beginning...

To say nothing of the work's gorgeous third movement. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: JoshLilly on September 20, 2007, 05:01:05 PM
The Pomp and Circumstance #1 may be overplayed, but I still think that the middle part is one of the greatest melodies in the entire history of music. "Serious" music folks seem to enjoy trashing it, but I just love it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 21, 2007, 02:09:52 AM
Quote from: JoshLilly on September 20, 2007, 05:01:05 PM
The Pomp and Circumstance #1 may be overplayed, but I still think that the middle part is one of the greatest melodies in the entire history of music. "Serious" music folks seem to enjoy trashing it, but I just love it.

Yes, it's overplayed. When Elgar invented the trio melody he said "A tune like that comes once in a lifetime." The fact is Elgar wrote brilliant marches and people trash them because they were composed by Elgar, a massively misunderstood* composer.

_______________________________________________
* Bonehelm just said above he never knew Elgar wrote such moving/touching melody...in his 1st symphony's 1st movtment's beginning...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on September 21, 2007, 02:33:55 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 20, 2007, 06:51:46 AM
I love Sospiri ever since hearing a recording by the Academy of St. Martin's-in-the-Fields under (who else) Neville Marriner. It was an Argo disc (yes, gramophone...), IIRC. And there's an organ, too, I think (ad lib.)

Yes, it's VERY beautiful. I have a number of recordings. My introduction was an excellent Barbirolli recording (with Symphony 2 on EMI British Composers). They used it, in a very moving way as music accompanying an excellent radio addaption of Len Deigton's "Bomber" on BBC Radio 4.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2007, 02:45:17 AM
Talking about Symphony 2 - is anyone else of the opinion that the Larghetto and Rondo movements really are among the 'Best of British'?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 21, 2007, 03:09:35 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 21, 2007, 02:45:17 AM
Talking about Symphony 2 - is anyone else of the opinion that the Larghetto and Rondo movements really are among the 'Best of British'?

I know that Poju is a BIG fan of the Second Symphony, but try as I might, I can't connect with it. The First speaks more to me ... and even the Third (with the assistance of Anthony Payne) is more to my taste. The Second Symphony is an example of Elgar that I don't like. Another would be some of the music from the Wand of Youth Suites.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on September 21, 2007, 03:16:00 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 21, 2007, 02:45:17 AM
Talking about Symphony 2 - is anyone else of the opinion that the Larghetto and Rondo movements really are among the 'Best of British'?

Yes
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2007, 03:21:04 AM
Quote from: Mark on September 21, 2007, 03:09:35 AM
I know that Poju is a BIG fan of the Second Symphony, but try as I might, I can't connect with it. The First speaks more to me ... and even the Third (with the assistance of Anthony Payne) is more to my taste. The Second Symphony is an example of Elgar that I don't like. Another would be some of the music from the Wand of Youth Suites.

Interesting, Mark. I know the experience - I 'suffer' from it with the Sibelius Sixth and the Vaughan Williams Fifth. Both are composers I really love, but these two works, for whatever reason, don't speak to me. As far as Elgar's Second is concerned - I am very moved by the tragic undercurrents in this work. The motto from the work is derived from Shelley (IIRC), 'Rarely comest thou, spirit of Delight'. The melancholy that you feel in this work really moves me deeply. But it takes a good conductor to bring it off. It's with Elgar, I have noticed, as with Delius - an indifferent performance really kills the work, so that you get the feeling nothing much of importance happens. Whereas a good performance gives you the feeling of listening to some of the best music ever.

Perhaps this goes for all music. But Elgar and Delius seem to require a real spiritual affinity in the conductor. (And Brian, another favourite of mine, demands the same thing, btw)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 21, 2007, 03:28:54 AM
I totally agree about Elgar and Delius needing sensitive, attuned interpreters - the latter even more so than the former. I've found Delius quite the turn-off before now; undoubtedly, its performers are to blame.

But as to you finding the Sibelius Sixth doesn't speak to you, I'm shocked. Genuinely. I think it's among his very best works, and one with which I connected immediately.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2007, 03:42:32 AM
Strange, isn't it, how people can differ in their response?

I think what I find difficult in Sibelius's Sixth is that I'm missing something - when the work starts there seems to me to be a lack of scale, I miss the sense that there is a vast world to be explored, a feeling I have in the Fourth, Fifth and Seventh (one of my absolute favourites), and also in Tapiola. It's this, I think, that has so far hindered me in my appreciation.

But, just to make clear that I'd rather love a work than leave it, I'll listen to it again (not now, but during the weekend).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 21, 2007, 03:44:38 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 21, 2007, 03:42:32 AM
But, just to make clear that I'd rather love a work than leave it, I'll listen to it again (not now, but during the weekend).

Fair enough. I'll spin Elgar's Second Symphony once more and report back. ;)
Title: Sibelius Adjunct to Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 21, 2007, 04:16:40 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 21, 2007, 03:42:32 AM
Strange, isn't it, how people can differ in their response?

I think what I find difficult in Sibelius's Sixth is that I'm missing something - when the work starts there seems to me to be a lack of scale, I miss the sense that there is a vast world to be explored . . . .

This is maybe a case of 'we agree on the facts, but differ as to their significance' :-)

This for me is part of the charm and attraction of the Sixth, this tenderness and intimacy of tone, partly signalled by those two additions to the scoring which are unusual for Sibelius's symphonies, the bass clarinet and the harp.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Harry Collier on September 21, 2007, 04:20:57 AM
I, too, love the second symphony. Very mixed-up and contorted, but some of Elgar's best music. Of the lesser known works, I quite go along with Sospiri (especially Barbirolli's gorgeous heart-on-sleeve performance on a disc of British music for string orchestra that includes Introduction & Allegro, Serenade for Strings, Vaughan Williams "Tallis" and "Greensleeves" -- a real desert island disc).

The piano quintet I find extremely likeable. There is also an attractive CD with William Boulton playing Elgar's violin & piano music, including many of his ephemeral salon pieces. Marat Bisengaliev also has a CD of the violin & piano pieces. The first part of Dream of Gerontius I love very much, but always grow slightly impatient with Part II. A pity Elgar didn't just end with Gerontius's death!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2007, 04:25:36 AM
"This for me is part of the charm and attraction of the Sixth, this tenderness and intimacy of tone"

As I have nothing against 'tenderness and intimacy' in music, I'm really looking forward now to hearing how they sound in the Sibelian universe. Who knows - perhaps I'll 'get' it (the Sixth) for the first time...

Johan
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 21, 2007, 05:41:06 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 21, 2007, 02:45:17 AM
Talking about Symphony 2 - is anyone else of the opinion that the Larghetto and Rondo movements really are among the 'Best of British'?

No. 2 is Elgar's finest symphony and among the finest of all his works. I find Larghetto and Finale absolutely mindblowing. Of all versions I have heard Downes on Naxos brings up the sophistication of this work best. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Larry Rinkel on September 21, 2007, 05:42:32 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 21, 2007, 02:45:17 AM
Talking about Symphony 2 - is anyone else of the opinion that the Larghetto and Rondo movements really are among the 'Best of British'?

Not I.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Larry Rinkel on September 21, 2007, 05:44:12 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on September 20, 2007, 04:01:40 PM
I never knew Elgar wrote such moving/touching melody...in his 1st symphony's 1st movtment's beginning...

That is certainly a volta face...   :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hector on September 21, 2007, 06:17:48 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 21, 2007, 02:45:17 AM
Talking about Symphony 2 - is anyone else of the opinion that the Larghetto and Rondo movements really are among the 'Best of British'?

No, the whole symphony is. Subtle beyond the understanding of many (and they will be on here before long trashing it and everything else) it is, often, seen as an elegy for a lost era, the Edwardian, in that it evokes nostalgia but the work ends with this dynamic last movement that actually points towards the future which makes one reassess one's initial feelings to the rest of the symphony.

Elgar's orchestration is very lucid, something that the great British conductors and orchestra understood almost instinctively and still do. Try Lyrita's double of the two symphonies under Boult. There are no better.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2007, 06:28:01 AM
Hector, I agree with your assessment. I love the symphony as a whole. But it's those middle movements that begin playing inside my head whenever I think of the work, the passionate elevation of the Larghetto, the frenzy of the Rondo...

I like your analysis of the work's trajectory - the first movement is catastrophic, the last movement, after all that has happened in between, serene and positive.

Yes, the work does 'open out' in the end. You are right there.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kullervo on September 21, 2007, 06:32:23 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 21, 2007, 05:44:12 AM
That is certainly a volta face...   :D

No, probably just overcoming prejudices and finally taking something on its own terms.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Larry Rinkel on September 21, 2007, 06:35:22 AM
Quote from: Hector on September 21, 2007, 06:17:48 AM
No, the whole symphony is. Subtle beyond the understanding of many (and they will be on here before long trashing it and everything else)

Ah, that's my problem. Not subtle enough. I'm only fit for unsubtle things like late Beethoven quartets.  :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: dtwilbanks on September 21, 2007, 07:13:45 AM
Quote from: Mark on September 21, 2007, 07:11:47 AM
Slap on your wrists with a butter knife, Karl, for provocation. >:( ;D

And this thread was going so well...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Larry Rinkel on September 21, 2007, 07:19:34 AM
Quote from: dtwilbanks on September 21, 2007, 07:13:45 AM
And this thread was going so well...

And who was it who started making personal accusations?  0:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: dtwilbanks on September 21, 2007, 07:21:39 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 21, 2007, 07:19:34 AM
And who was it who started making personal accusations?  0:)

Adam?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 21, 2007, 07:21:51 AM
All right, I've removed the message under advisement.

But, my friends, talking of the merits of the music is one thing.  Retreating into sneers at "the unwashed" who alleged lack the "subtlety" to appreciate the merits of the music, are another.

Agreed?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2007, 07:22:17 AM
This thread, any thread on this board will flourish and survive if people direct their subtlety and verbal dexterity (if present) at the things they care for.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: dtwilbanks on September 21, 2007, 07:22:48 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 21, 2007, 07:21:51 AM
All right, I've removed the message under advisement.

But, my friends, talking of the merits of the music is one thing.  Retreating into sneers at "the unwashed" who alleged lack the "subtlety" to appreciate the merits of the music, are another.

Agreed?
Yah.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Larry Rinkel on September 21, 2007, 07:24:03 AM
Quote from: dtwilbanks on September 21, 2007, 07:21:39 AM
Adam?

Guess again . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: dtwilbanks on September 21, 2007, 07:24:49 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 21, 2007, 07:24:03 AM
Guess again . . .

Larry?  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 21, 2007, 07:25:58 AM
Actually the most curious thing about Hector's post was characterizing Elgar's orchestration as lucid.  It's not an adjective one normally associates with that orchestration;  and though it is a while since I looked at the score to the symphonies, lucid was not a word which leapt to my mind at the time, either.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 21, 2007, 07:28:34 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 21, 2007, 07:25:58 AM
Actually the most curious thing about Hector's post was characterizing Elgar's orchestration as lucid.  It's not an adjective one normally associates with that orchestration;  and though it is a while since I looked at the score to the symphonies, lucid was not a word which leapt to my mind at the time, either.

Might 'chaotic' be a more appropriate word? The Second Symphony certainly sounds all over the place (at times) to my untrained ears.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2007, 07:30:55 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 21, 2007, 07:25:58 AM
Actually the most curious thing about Hector's post was characterizing Elgar's orchestration as lucid.  It's not an adjective one normally associates with that orchestration;  and though it is a while since I looked at the score to the symphonies, lucid was not a word which leapt to my mind at the time, either.

I'm listening to the Rondo of the Second (Downes) whilst writing this, and though 'lucid' is perhaps not the correct adjective, because Elgar's music has a solidity which you don't normally associate with lightness or transparance, there is a clarity there: all lines are audible.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 21, 2007, 07:34:56 AM
Sounds more like it, Jezetha;  I should revisit the Second, and probably will if there's a little less of this "you unsubtle slumgullions don't get it, do you?" chuff  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Larry Rinkel on September 21, 2007, 07:39:30 AM
Quote from: dtwilbanks on September 21, 2007, 07:24:49 AM
Larry?  ;D

I don't think so . . . .  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: longears on September 21, 2007, 07:39:44 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 21, 2007, 07:22:17 AM
This thread, any thread on this board will flourish and survive if people direct their subtlety and verbal dexterity (if present) at the things they care for.
Me like Moustache's Cello Cto.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 21, 2007, 07:40:31 AM
Quote from: Mark on September 21, 2007, 07:28:34 AM
Might 'chaotic' be a more appropriate word? The Second Symphony certainly sounds all over the place (at times) to my untrained ears.

The textures are certainly active, so I don't mind 'chaotic'.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2007, 07:41:33 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 21, 2007, 07:34:56 AM
Sounds more like it, Jezetha;  I should revisit the Second, and probably will if there's a little less of this "you unsubtle slumgullions don't get it, do you?" chuff  8)

I agree. If you think you have an insight, share it. If you think people are deaf or blind, give them eyes and ears. And if they don't want them, move on.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: dtwilbanks on September 21, 2007, 07:42:31 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 21, 2007, 07:41:33 AM
I agree. If you think you have an insight, share it. If you think people are deaf or blind, give them eyes and ears. And if they don't want them, move on.

0:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 21, 2007, 07:51:29 AM
Lucid is, however, the perfect word for the scoring of the Cello Concerto.

I love the Spanish hints at the start of the second movement Lento.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2007, 07:58:01 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 21, 2007, 07:51:29 AM
Lucid is, however, the perfect word for the scoring of the Cello Concerto.

Yes. The marvel of that work is the way Elgar 'rebuilds' the orchestra around the cello.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 21, 2007, 07:59:18 AM
Any composer would love to be able to write an Adagio like that third movement!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: longears on September 21, 2007, 08:02:45 AM
One of the glories of the literature.

Loss, to make our hearts weep.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 21, 2007, 10:03:04 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on September 21, 2007, 07:30:55 AM
I'm listening to the Rondo of the Second (Downes) whilst writing this... ...there is a clarity there: all lines are audible.

Yes. I have always found Elgar's music complex/sophisticated rather than chaotic. To me every note makes perfect sense. But that's me. Maybe I simply want my classical music "fatter" than average listener.

Bad performances of Elgar's symphonies can sound chaotic if the conductor is unable to balance the textures and follow structures. I also recommend new crystal clear digital recordings of Elgar for maximum structural clarity.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on September 21, 2007, 11:14:01 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 21, 2007, 10:03:04 AM
Bad performances of Elgar's symphonies can sound chaotic if the conductor is unable to balance the textures and follow structures. I also recommend new crystal clear digital recordings of Elgar for maximum structural clarity.

Bad acoustics don't help either - Davis's LSO Live Elgar performances are a little muddy (heck, many of the releases on that label are), I may try Boult.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Bonehelm on September 21, 2007, 09:00:17 PM
Ok 71dB I need your help appreciating the two Elgar symphonies. Aside from the beginning of his 1st movt. in his 1st symphony, I am almost completely lost in his music. I can't stay on track, it all makes no sense musically to me. Even Bruckner sounds more logical to me comparing to Elgar.

So in order to appreciate him, what should I listen for? (e.g. brass chorales for Bruckner, off-stage brass and fanfares for Mahler, etc)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 22, 2007, 12:30:30 AM
Quote from: Lethe on September 21, 2007, 11:14:01 AM
... Davis's LSO Live Elgar performances are a little muddy (heck, many of the releases on that label are) ...

Not an experience I've had - I own several discs from the label, almost all of which ring with clarity.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 22, 2007, 12:47:47 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on September 21, 2007, 09:00:17 PM
Ok 71dB I need your help appreciating the two Elgar symphonies. Aside from the beginning of his 1st movt. in his 1st symphony, I am almost completely lost in his music. I can't stay on track, it all makes no sense musically to me. Even Bruckner sounds more logical to me comparing to Elgar.

So in order to appreciate him, what should I listen for? (e.g. brass chorales for Bruckner, off-stage brass and fanfares for Mahler, etc)

Hello, Bonehelm! I'm no 71dB, but I can make a suggestion - why don't you leave the opening movement till later, and start off the with the middle movements? Their structure is very clear. And the Finale is one great struggle to regain that wonderful melody you like from the beginning of the first movement. So, if you end the work, you can begin again, but hopefully with a stronger sense of what the symphony is grappling with and working towards.

Hope this helps.

Johan
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 22, 2007, 03:34:02 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on September 21, 2007, 09:00:17 PM
Ok 71dB I need your help appreciating the two Elgar symphonies. Aside from the beginning of his 1st movt. in his 1st symphony, I am almost completely lost in his music. I can't stay on track, it all makes no sense musically to me. Even Bruckner sounds more logical to me comparing to Elgar.

So in order to appreciate him, what should I listen for? (e.g. brass chorales for Bruckner, off-stage brass and fanfares for Mahler, etc)

I appreciate you are curious about these symphonies and want to understand them better. They are not easy to get imo but I'd say once they become familiar to you and you undertand Elgar's musical thinking better they become very logical.

The key imo to understand Elgar is the fact he composed sounds rather than notes. If you play Elgar's (orchestral) themes on piano they sound less promising but played on orchestra they sound fantastic. You can't separate Elgar's melodies, harmonies etc. from the orchestral timbre. That's why analyse of his scores do not reveal everything essential in Elgar's art. He was a self-taught composer who used music theory in subordinate way to achieve as good sounding music as possible.

I am not capable of full musical analyse of scores but to me Elgar's thematic material seems to be longer than that of many other composers. He uses rather long melodies and motivs to construct the music. These long building blocks overlap in sophisticated ways I admire a lot. I suppose this overlapping is Elgar's version of "fugal writing" in late romantic style. After all, he was heavily influenced by the music of J. S. Bach and Händel (he wanted to became a violinist after hearing a perfomance of The Messiah at the age of 12).

In quiet passages in Elgar's music are not thin which I also like. The sound of woodwinds is thin because of the spectral stucture. Elgar avoids situations where only one woodwind instrument is playing something. He uses woodwinds skillfully to color his music. Elgar was a violinist and strings are the foundation of his music, other instruments mere complete the orchestral colors.

Elgar's music is unique. I find similar orchestral thinking in Bruckner and creativity in Nielsen. I call it relative music. The meaning of every note and musical structure is defined by other notes. You take something away and the whole perfect structure falls apart, loses it's meaning. Oboe starts playing because the last 5 minutes have sonically repaired you to want the sound of oboe. Try to see this analysing the score! If you take those few notes played with oboe away the meaning of the previous 5 minutes is compromised.

In a way Elgar's music is also very easy to understand because he is a straight-to-the-point composer. The music tries to strike your mind and heart directly with the way it sounds. Clearly the 1st movement of his 1st symphony does just that to you. I hope in time rest of his music has the same effect.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: sound67 on September 22, 2007, 04:26:24 AM
Quote from: Mark on September 21, 2007, 07:28:34 AM
Might 'chaotic' be a more appropriate word? The Second Symphony certainly sounds all over the place (at times) to my untrained ears.

Usually, the slower the performance, the muddier the Elgar symphonies seem. Boult e.g. never seems muddy in either (I'd recommend his Lyrita set, which just had its CD premiere), nor does Solti. Giulini, Thomson and Tate do, the dreadfully slow lot of them.

Thomas
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 22, 2007, 05:27:04 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 22, 2007, 04:26:24 AM
Usually, the slower the performance, the muddier the Elgar symphonies seem. Boult e.g. never seems muddy in either (I'd recommend his Lyrita set, which just had its CD premiere), nor does Solti. Giulini, Thomson and Tate do, the dreadfully slow lot of them.

Solti doesn't belong in that "lot"...he's very swift. With a performance modeled on Elgar's own, he's faster than Boult (at least faster than Boult's EMI version with the LPO). Solti's timings:

I - 15:30
II - 15:30
III - 7:49
IV - 12:33

Maybe you meant Sinopoli?

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: sound67 on September 22, 2007, 05:39:54 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 22, 2007, 05:27:04 AM
Solti doesn't belong in that "lot"...he's very swift.

Exactly. That's why there's a "." between Solti and "the lot". I was referring to both Boult/Lyrita and Solti/Decca being on the quick side, the rest on the slow(er) side.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 22, 2007, 05:51:59 AM
Quote from: sound67 on September 22, 2007, 05:39:54 AM
Exactly. That's why there's a "." between Solti and "the lot". I was referring to both Boult/Lyrita and Solti/Decca being on the quick side, the rest on the slow(er) side.

Ah...should have had my specs on. I saw a comma instead of a period. My apologies.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on September 22, 2007, 06:30:37 AM
I guess I will definitely try the Boult now. I'm still having difficulties with the syms, and it's my last hope that this may be due to the slow interps I've only heard so far.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: cx on September 22, 2007, 06:41:43 AM
How's Sinopoli in the symphonies? And how is he in the other works (Enigma Vars, Cello Concerto w/ Maisky, In the South)? I haven't heard any of it.

But I did find this interesting treat, of Sinopoli commenting on Elgar's music:

QuoteElgar composed carefully, a fact not appreciated by many European critics who consider Elgar a mediocre orchestrator. The complexity of the different textual families and polyphony must be balanced with care--it is necessary to have a very good orchestra with a conductor fully aware of how to realize the various levels of sound, character and structure.

Interview with Anne Inglis, Gramophone (London), February 1989, 1266.

Now, does he practice what he preaches?  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 22, 2007, 06:47:41 AM
Quote from: CS on September 22, 2007, 06:41:43 AM
Now, does he practice what he preaches?  :)

Thanks to Sarge I can comment Sinopoli on Elgar's 2nd. In my opinion he perhaps tries to practise what he preaches but there are those who practise better (Downes).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 22, 2007, 07:13:35 AM
Quote from: CS on September 22, 2007, 06:41:43 AM
How's Sinopoli in the symphonies? And how is he in the other works (Enigma Vars, Cello Concerto w/ Maisky, In the South)? I haven't heard any of it.

But I did find this interesting treat, of Sinopoli commenting on Elgar's music:

Interview with Anne Inglis, Gramophone (London), February 1989, 1266.

Now, does he practice what he preaches?  :)

I'm late for a birthday party but I'll be back later to comment on Sinopoli's Elgar, most especially his recording of the Second which I love (I'm a lone prophet crying in the wilderness  ;D )

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Bonehelm on September 22, 2007, 01:35:31 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 22, 2007, 03:34:02 AM
I appreciate you are curious about these symphonies and want to understand them better. They are not easy to get imo but I'd say once they become familiar to you and you undertand Elgar's musical thinking better they become very logical.

The key imo to understand Elgar is the fact he composed sounds rather than notes. If you play Elgar's (orchestral) themes on piano they sound less promising but played on orchestra they sound fantastic. You can't separate Elgar's melodies, harmonies etc. from the orchestral timbre. That's why analyse of his scores do not reveal everything essential in Elgar's art. He was a self-taught composer who used music theory in subordinate way to achieve as good sounding music as possible.

I am not capable of full musical analyse of scores but to me Elgar's thematic material seems to be longer than that of many other composers. He uses rather long melodies and motivs to construct the music. These long building blocks overlap in sophisticated ways I admire a lot. I suppose this overlapping is Elgar's version of "fugal writing" in late romantic style. After all, he was heavily influenced by the music of J. S. Bach and Händel (he wanted to became a violinist after hearing a perfomance of The Messiah at the age of 12).

In quiet passages in Elgar's music are not thin which I also like. The sound of woodwinds is thin because of the spectral stucture. Elgar avoids situations where only one woodwind instrument is playing something. He uses woodwinds skillfully to color his music. Elgar was a violinist and strings are the foundation of his music, other instruments mere complete the orchestral colors.

Elgar's music is unique. I find similar orchestral thinking in Bruckner and creativity in Nielsen. I call it relative music. The meaning of every note and musical structure is defined by other notes. You take something away and the whole perfect structure falls apart, loses it's meaning. Oboe starts playing because the last 5 minutes have sonically repaired you to want the sound of oboe. Try to see this analysing the score! If you take those few notes played with oboe away the meaning of the previous 5 minutes is compromised.

In a way Elgar's music is also very easy to understand because he is a straight-to-the-point composer. The music tries to strike your mind and heart directly with the way it sounds. Clearly the 1st movement of his 1st symphony does just that to you. I hope in time rest of his music has the same effect.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Bonehelm on September 22, 2007, 01:37:06 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 22, 2007, 03:34:02 AM
I appreciate you are curious about these symphonies and want to understand them better. They are not easy to get imo but I'd say once they become familiar to you and you undertand Elgar's musical thinking better they become very logical.

The key imo to understand Elgar is the fact he composed sounds rather than notes. If you play Elgar's (orchestral) themes on piano they sound less promising but played on orchestra they sound fantastic. You can't separate Elgar's melodies, harmonies etc. from the orchestral timbre. That's why analyse of his scores do not reveal everything essential in Elgar's art. He was a self-taught composer who used music theory in subordinate way to achieve as good sounding music as possible.

I am not capable of full musical analyse of scores but to me Elgar's thematic material seems to be longer than that of many other composers. He uses rather long melodies and motivs to construct the music. These long building blocks overlap in sophisticated ways I admire a lot. I suppose this overlapping is Elgar's version of "fugal writing" in late romantic style. After all, he was heavily influenced by the music of J. S. Bach and Händel (he wanted to became a violinist after hearing a perfomance of The Messiah at the age of 12).

In quiet passages in Elgar's music are not thin which I also like. The sound of woodwinds is thin because of the spectral stucture. Elgar avoids situations where only one woodwind instrument is playing something. He uses woodwinds skillfully to color his music. Elgar was a violinist and strings are the foundation of his music, other instruments mere complete the orchestral colors.

Elgar's music is unique. I find similar orchestral thinking in Bruckner and creativity in Nielsen. I call it relative music. The meaning of every note and musical structure is defined by other notes. You take something away and the whole perfect structure falls apart, loses it's meaning. Oboe starts playing because the last 5 minutes have sonically repaired you to want the sound of oboe. Try to see this analysing the score! If you take those few notes played with oboe away the meaning of the previous 5 minutes is compromised.

In a way Elgar's music is also very easy to understand because he is a straight-to-the-point composer. The music tries to strike your mind and heart directly with the way it sounds. Clearly the 1st movement of his 1st symphony does just that to you. I hope in time rest of his music has the same effect.

Thanks for the explainations. I'm listening to the 2nd symphony now and It does have rich, thick textures. I'm still trying to decipher what Elgar coded, though.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 23, 2007, 05:26:22 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on September 22, 2007, 01:37:06 PM
Thanks for the explainations. I'm listening to the 2nd symphony now and It does have rich, thick textures. I'm still trying to decipher what Elgar coded, though.

No problem!

Have fun deciphering.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hector on September 24, 2007, 06:12:46 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 21, 2007, 06:35:22 AM
Ah, that's my problem. Not subtle enough. I'm only fit for unsubtle things like late Beethoven quartets.  :D

And out one of them pops, as if on cue!  ;D

There is so much going on in Elgar's orchestra and the ear needs to not only ascertain the different strands but put them together to form a coherent symphonic movement.

I admit that those unused to Elgar's way with the orchestra may find the result 'chaotic.' Persevere, is all that I can offer.

I would recommend the recent Lyrita issue of Boult conducting both the 1st and 2nd symphonies, a double CD for the price of one.

I have never heard a recording, or performance - not even from Boult, that lays out the orchestration or structure so lucidly.

His lighter music demonstrates what a master orchestrator, and melodist, he was.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 24, 2007, 06:24:49 AM
Quote from: Hector on September 24, 2007, 06:12:46 AM
I admit that those unused to Elgar's way with the orchestra may find the result 'chaotic.' Persevere, is all that I can offer.

I read Mark's use of the adjective as descriptive, and not derisive/negative.

I'm sure if he dislikes the symphonies, it's for some reason other than the 'chaos'  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Larry Rinkel on September 24, 2007, 06:38:52 AM
Quote from: Hector on September 24, 2007, 06:12:46 AM
And out one of them pops, as if on cue!  ;D

And I would suggest you refrain from the personal insults. Those of us who have reservations concerning Elgar are not necessarily stupid, insensitive, unsubtle, careless, or whatever epithets you choose to fling. I have given Elgar's symphonies a number of tries through the years and I continue to find aspects of them overblown and even vulgar (e.g., the way the return of the main themes in #2, outer movements, are punctuated by big chords on the brass and cymbal crashes). It is precisely the lack of subtlety at such moments that alienates me from this strain in Elgar, and his tendency towards grandiosity without irony that makes those pieces less than first-rate in my opinion. It's precisely the subtler works - perhaps above the string quartet, the cello concerto, and Falstaff - that have most won me over. In the first two especially, there is an elegiac tone that is more subtle and moving to me than most anything in the symphonies. There are other works of Elgar I truly admire - the Intro and Allegro, the Cockaigne Overture with its bracing good spirits, and In the South.

The latter of these reflects yet another problem I have with Elgar - trying to hear a distinctive personality that makes his work instantly recognizable. For example, in the first movement of the Piano Quintet I hear a lot of Brahms, especially those quarter-quarter-quarter-eighth note triplet rhythms; and I've referred to In the South as one of my favorite pieces by Richard Strauss. (The music depicting ancient Rome about 6 minutes into the piece is not Straussian, however, and those 3-4 minutes sound both highly original and one of the most powerful passages I know in all of Elgar.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 24, 2007, 09:55:53 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 24, 2007, 06:24:49 AM
I read Mark's use of the adjective as descriptive, and not derisive/negative.

I'm sure if he dislikes the symphonies, it's for some reason other than the 'chaos'  8)

Correct, Karl: descriptive not derisive. ;)

And it's not at all that I don't like Elgar's symphonies - his First is a triumph, in my ears. The Second simply poses problems for me. Which lines to follow? Where do we go from one theme to another? The first movement particularly jangles my nerves to such an extent that I'm left ill-prepared to appreciate what beauty and complexity there is to enjoy in the remainder of the work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 24, 2007, 10:48:48 AM
Some of the music I like is chaotic, and I like the chaos  0:)

So maybe some Elgar (or another composer, too) is too . . . orderly for me, I dunno . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 24, 2007, 10:50:11 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 24, 2007, 06:38:52 AM
. . . and I've referred to In the South as one of my favorite pieces by Richard Strauss. (The music depicting ancient Rome about 6 minutes into the piece is not Straussian, however, and those 3-4 minutes sound both highly original and one of the most powerful passages I know in all of Elgar.

Dang, wonder if I still have a copy of In the South somewhere . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Dundonnell on September 24, 2007, 11:51:33 AM
The originator of this thread indicated that he was seeking opinions on some of the less well known works by Sir Edward Elgar.

I would suggest one of Elgar's last choral works "The Spirit of England". This is a most beautiful and moving work, written during World War One and setting words by the poet Laurence Binyon. The third and last part of the work is a setting of Binyon's "For the Fallen" and
it used to be the custom for a performance on Armistice Day. I suspect that the title has led some people to imagine that this is a flag-waving example of English Edwardian imperial self-confidence and has deterred proper appreciation of what is, in my opinion, along with the Cello Concerto one of Elgar's late masterpieces.

On the (very early) Chandos CD of "The Spirit of England" conducted by Sir Alexander Gibson the coupling is a work much more in the 'imperial style'-the Coronation Ode of 1902 composed for the coronation of King Edward VII. This is, however, really great fun if taken as a work of its own time. It ends with the choral version of 'Land of Hope and Glory' which is a really splendid conclusion(although I fully appreciate that many may have some difficulties with it!!)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 24, 2007, 12:01:08 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 24, 2007, 11:51:33 AM
The originator of this thread indicated that he was seeking opinions on some of the less well known works by Sir Edward Elgar.

I did indeed. :)

QuoteI would suggest one of Elgar's last choral works "The Spirit of England". This is a most beautiful and moving work, written during World War One and setting words by the poet Laurence Binyon. The third and last part of the work is a setting of Binyon's "For the Fallen" and it used to be the custom for a performance on Armistice Day. I suspect that the title has led some people to imagine that this is a flag-waving example of English Edwardian imperial self-confidence and has deterred proper appreciation of what is, in my opinion, along with the Cello Concerto one of Elgar's late masterpieces.

Excellent. Just the kind of recommendation I like: one which gives me something new to explore. ;)

QuoteIt ends with the choral version of 'Land of Hope and Glory' which is a really splendid conclusion(although I fully appreciate that many may have some difficulties with it!!)

As an Englishman, part of whom still harbours a half-affection for all that Imperial nonsense (just so long as we treat it as a part of our history and DON'T return to it), I rather enjoy belting out the pompous, arrogant words to 'Land of Hope and Glory'. I also appreciate that this will not find favour with some here (and elsewhere in the world), but I'd be hypocrite to say otherwise.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Larry Rinkel on September 24, 2007, 12:29:03 PM
Quote from: Mark on September 24, 2007, 12:01:08 PM
(1) I did indeed. :)

(2) As an Englishman, part of whom still harbours a half-affection for all that Imperial nonsense (just so long as we treat it as a part of our history and DON'T return to it), I rather enjoy belting out the pompous, arrogant words to 'Land of Hope and Glory'. I also appreciate that this will not find favour with some here (and elsewhere in the world), but I'd be hypocrite to say otherwise.

(1) "The originator of this thread indicated that he was seeking opinions on some of the less well known works by Sir Edward Elgar."

And he also implied that any works by this composer were open for discussion:

"Now, let me say from the outset that I sincerely hope we can have a thread to discuss the life and works of this composer (as we do for so many others)."

(2) By all means, belt away. Sometimes it is nice to know sound travels only a limited distance . . . .  :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 24, 2007, 12:38:01 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 24, 2007, 11:51:33 AM
I would suggest one of Elgar's last choral works "The Spirit of England".

That's a very good suggestion! Another less known work I am very fond of is "The Music Makers"
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kullervo on September 24, 2007, 12:43:58 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2007, 12:38:01 PM
That's a very good suggestion! Another less known work I am very fond of is "The Music Makers"

Immortalized in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: sound67 on September 24, 2007, 12:45:03 PM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 24, 2007, 06:38:52 AM
And I would suggest you refrain from the personal insults. Those of us who have reservations concerning Elgar are not necessarily stupid, insensitive, unsubtle, careless, or whatever epithets you choose to fling. I have given Elgar's symphonies a number of tries through the years and I continue to find aspects of them overblown and even vulgar (e.g., the way the return of the main themes in #2, outer movements, are punctuated by big chords on the brass and cymbal crashes). It is precisely the lack of subtlety at such moments that alienates me from this strain in Elgar, and his tendency towards grandiosity without irony that makes those pieces less than first-rate in my opinion.

A most unsophisticated comment.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: sound67 on September 24, 2007, 12:46:52 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 24, 2007, 11:51:33 AM
I would suggest one of Elgar's last choral works "The Spirit of England". This is a most beautiful and moving work, written during World War One and setting words by the poet Laurence Binyon. The third and last part of the work is a setting of Binyon's "For the Fallen" and
it used to be the custom for a performance on Armistice Day. I suspect that the title has led some people to imagine that this is a flag-waving example of English Edwardian imperial self-confidence and has deterred proper appreciation of what is, in my opinion, along with the Cello Concerto one of Elgar's late masterpieces.

Exactly. An unfortunate choice of title. Had Elgar called the whole work "For the Fallen", it would long have been a classic.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 24, 2007, 12:47:51 PM
At the time, I am sure, the title did not strike anyone as unfortunate.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 24, 2007, 12:50:57 PM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 24, 2007, 12:29:03 PM
(1) "The originator of this thread indicated that he was seeking opinions on some of the less well known works by Sir Edward Elgar."

And he also implied that any works by this composer were open for discussion:

My dear Larry, a misunderstanding has eventuated, I'm sure. My 'Indeed I did' remark shouldn't be seen by anyone as me being disapproving of discussion of Elgar's output other than his lesser-known works. As you rightly observed, I welcomed discussion of ALL of Elgar's music from the outset. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on September 24, 2007, 12:53:04 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 24, 2007, 11:51:33 AM
The originator of this thread indicated that he was seeking opinions on some of the less well known works by Sir Edward Elgar.

I would suggest one of Elgar's last choral works "The Spirit of England". This is a most beautiful and moving work, written during World War One and setting words by the poet Laurence Binyon. The third and last part of the work is a setting of Binyon's "For the Fallen"
On the (very early) Chandos CD of "The Spirit of England" conducted by Sir Alexander Gibson the coupling is a work much more in the 'imperial style'-the Coronation Ode of 1902 composed for the coronation of King Edward VII. This is, however, really great fun if taken as a work of its own time. It ends with the choral version of 'Land of Hope and Glory' which is a really splendid conclusion(although I fully appreciate that many may have some difficulties with it!!)

I agree, it really is a beautiful piece, Teresa Cahill sounds Strausian in the way she spins the soprano solo lines. I was in that recording as a chorister, it was done with not much rehearsal.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: BachQ on September 24, 2007, 12:54:56 PM
Quote from: knight on September 24, 2007, 12:53:04 PM
I was in that recording as a chorister

By God!  We have a celebrity in our very midst ........
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on September 24, 2007, 12:55:49 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2007, 12:38:01 PM
That's a very good suggestion! Another less known work I am very fond of is "The Music Makers"

I don't agree, it comes across as a patchwork of quotes sewen together. Although I quite like it, I don't rate it as one of his best works.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: BachQ on September 24, 2007, 12:57:02 PM
Quote from: knight on September 24, 2007, 12:53:04 PM
Teresa Cahill sounds Strausian in the way she spins the soprano solo lines.

Do you mean Straussian?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on September 24, 2007, 01:00:17 PM
Yes thanks, the dyslexia is kicking in good style tonight. I should use the spellcheck. I am also on MSN and that is almost indecipherable.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: BachQ on September 24, 2007, 01:03:24 PM
Quote from: knight on September 24, 2007, 01:00:17 PM
I should use the spellcheck.



By George ........ upon applying the spellchecker, it appears that STRAUSSIAN has made it into the spellchecker's vocab!  :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 24, 2007, 01:07:45 PM
Quote from: D Minor on September 24, 2007, 01:03:24 PM


By George ........ upon applying the spellchecker, it appears that STRAUSSIAN has made it into the spellchecker's vocab!  :D

I know - it's amazing! I appreciate that this isn't bespoke forum software, but the number of words you'd assume the spellchecker on a site like this would know, yet which it doesn't, is astonishing. :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 24, 2007, 01:11:23 PM
Quote from: knight on September 24, 2007, 12:55:49 PM
I don't agree, it comes across as a patchwork of quotes sewen together. Although I quite like it, I don't rate it as one of his best works.

Mike

Yes, it is quotes sewen together but I am still fond of it. I don't rate it one of Elgar's best either but still nice.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Larry Rinkel on September 24, 2007, 01:13:43 PM
Quote from: sound67 on September 24, 2007, 12:45:03 PM
A most unsophisticated comment.

Grow up.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 24, 2007, 01:15:02 PM
Quote from: knight on September 24, 2007, 12:53:04 PM
I was in that recording as a chorister.

Mike

COOL!!   8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hector on September 25, 2007, 05:42:42 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 24, 2007, 06:24:49 AM
I read Mark's use of the adjective as descriptive, and not derisive/negative.

I'm sure if he dislikes the symphonies, it's for some reason other than the 'chaos'  8)

Agreed, but it is only his opinion. If that is what he hears, fine, but it is not chaotic. Perhaps a poor description. i cannot answer for him.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 25, 2007, 05:54:39 AM
Hector, surely I shouldn't have to qualify every post I make by stipulating that what I write is never more than my own opinion? ::)

In any case, let's just rewind a little and study the facts. Karl questioned the use of the word 'lucid' in connection with Elgar's orchestration of his Second Symphony. He then seemed to be reaching for a more appropriate word, and I merely suggested that it might be 'chaotic':

Quote from: Mark on September 21, 2007, 07:28:34 AM
Might 'chaotic' be a more appropriate word? The Second Symphony certainly sounds all over the place (at times) to my untrained ears.

Whether or not I find the Second Symphony 'chaotic' was never the point. As a matter of fact, I do, but that's my view and I don't expect others to share in it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hector on September 25, 2007, 05:57:47 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 24, 2007, 06:38:52 AM
And I would suggest you refrain from the personal insults. Those of us who have reservations concerning Elgar are not necessarily stupid, insensitive, unsubtle, careless, or whatever epithets you choose to fling. I have given Elgar's symphonies a number of tries through the years and I continue to find aspects of them overblown and even vulgar (e.g., the way the return of the main themes in #2, outer movements, are punctuated by big chords on the brass and cymbal crashes). It is precisely the lack of subtlety at such moments that alienates me from this strain in Elgar, and his tendency towards grandiosity without irony that makes those pieces less than first-rate in my opinion. It's precisely the subtler works - perhaps above the string quartet, the cello concerto, and Falstaff - that have most won me over. In the first two especially, there is an elegiac tone that is more subtle and moving to me than most anything in the symphonies. There are other works of Elgar I truly admire - the Intro and Allegro, the Cockaigne Overture with its bracing good spirits, and In the South.

The latter of these reflects yet another problem I have with Elgar - trying to hear a distinctive personality that makes his work instantly recognizable. For example, in the first movement of the Piano Quintet I hear a lot of Brahms, especially those quarter-quarter-quarter-eighth note triplet rhythms; and I've referred to In the South as one of my favorite pieces by Richard Strauss. (The music depicting ancient Rome about 6 minutes into the piece is not Straussian, however, and those 3-4 minutes sound both highly original and one of the most powerful passages I know in all of Elgar.)

You read into my posts what you want but it seems to me that I have struck a nerve.

What you hear in the symphonies is not there  but you continue to bang on about it.

Yes, you hear Brahms, but I can think of a number of composers of this period that that is true of. So what?

I detect Elgarian tendencies in Reger or is it Regerian tendencies in Elgar. I cannot remember but they were friends. What are your thoughts on this?

Personally, I struggle to like, let alone love, 'Falstaff' as I struggle with 'humour' in music. A magnificent failure as far as I'm concerned, perhaps (we all have our 'deaf' spots)?

I know many think 'Falstaff' Elgar's greatest orchestral work. It might be, I don't care, I prefer the symphonies and Richard Strauss' 'Alassio' ('Aus Italien' extended?).

Unable to hear a distinctive personality? That is your problem and, no doubt, others will clamour to support you!

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: longears on September 25, 2007, 06:05:07 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 24, 2007, 06:38:52 AM
And I would suggest you refrain from the personal insults. Those of us who have reservations concerning Elgar are not necessarily stupid, insensitive, unsubtle, careless, or whatever epithets you choose to fling. I have given Elgar's symphonies a number of tries through the years and I continue to find aspects of them overblown and even vulgar (e.g., the way the return of the main themes in #2, outer movements, are punctuated by big chords on the brass and cymbal crashes). It is precisely the lack of subtlety at such moments that alienates me from this strain in Elgar, and his tendency towards grandiosity without irony that makes those pieces less than first-rate in my opinion. It's precisely the subtler works - perhaps above the string quartet, the cello concerto, and Falstaff - that have most won me over. In the first two especially, there is an elegiac tone that is more subtle and moving to me than most anything in the symphonies. There are other works of Elgar I truly admire - the Intro and Allegro, the Cockaigne Overture with its bracing good spirits, and In the South.

I agree whole-heartedly.  As for "unsophisticated," why, that's one of the highest compliments imaginable!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 25, 2007, 06:06:38 AM
Quote from: Hector on September 25, 2007, 05:57:47 AM
Personally, I struggle to like, let alone love, 'Falstaff' as I struggle with 'humour' in music.

Very interesting, Hector.  In a broad (medieval) sense of humor, yes, I enjoy the humor of Falstaff, and I think rather more of it than of the symphonies (which, in my view of things, much more readily qualify as "magnificent" [or large, at any rate] "failures").  In my enjoyment and admiration for Falstaff, there is no emphasis on chuckly chortles . . . that is simply (and again, just to judge from my own read of the music) beside much more germane points.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 25, 2007, 06:12:16 AM
Re Hector's: "Personally, I struggle to like, let alone love, 'Falstaff' as I struggle with 'humour' in music. A magnificent failure as far as I'm concerned, perhaps (we all have our 'deaf' spots)?"

I don't like 'Falstaff' either, try as I might.

Re Larry Rinkel's interesting criticism about Elgar's 'grandiosity without irony': apart from the question whether grandeur per se is a bad thing, so that only when you undercut it, you demonstrate subtlety, I would argue that Elgar 'criticises', if you will, this grandiose gesture implicitly in the rest of the symphony. It's a bit like the Alma theme in the first movement of Mahler's Sixth - ever so slightly over the top, for the precise purpose of putting it violently into perspective in the next movement(s). Back to Elgar - I think Elgar is very 'tactful' with his brass and his cymbals in the Second. I can't see any vulgarity. There is only an intensity of expression.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Larry Rinkel on September 25, 2007, 06:12:54 AM
Quote from: Mark on September 25, 2007, 05:54:39 AM
Hector, surely I shouldn't have to qualify every post I make by stipulating that what I write is never more than my own opinion? ::)

In any case, let's just rewind a little and study the facts. Karl questioned the use of the word 'lucid' in connection with Elgar's orchestration of his Second Symphony. He then seemed to be reaching for a more appropriate word, and I merely suggested that it might be 'chaotic':

Whether or not I find the Second Symphony 'chaotic' was never the point. As a matter of fact, I do, but that's my view and I don't expect others to share in it.

You see, Mark, what we have here from the resident Elgarians is not a disinterested, open-minded attempt to evaluate this composer's strengths and weaknesses, but a kind of hagiography in which any criticism of St. Edward must be countered by personal attack ("what you hear is not there," "that is your problem," "a most unsophisticated comment" and the like). I hear a grandiosity in some of the work that I find off-putting, and I doubt I'm alone. Why the Elgarians are at such pains to snipe at any criticism of their idol is - well, perhaps their problem. But it is not the way to win anyone else over to their point of view.  :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Larry Rinkel on September 25, 2007, 06:16:34 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 25, 2007, 06:06:38 AM
Very interesting, Hector.  In a broad (medieval) sense of humor, yes, I enjoy the humor of Falstaff, and I think rather more of it than of the symphonies (which, in my view of things, much more readily qualify as "magnificent" [or large, at any rate] "failures").  In my enjoyment and admiration for Falstaff, there is no emphasis on chuckly chortles . . . that is simply (and again, just to judge from my own read of the music) beside much more germane points.

Actually I consider Falstaff one of Elgar's greatest successes - not only for its tone of humor, but for its formal fluidity. The way in which Elgar keeps in play a highly complex amount of thematic material with very little repetition reminds me, above all, of Debussy's technique in Jeux - another extremely sophisticated work that has never won broad public acclaim.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 25, 2007, 06:24:38 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 25, 2007, 06:12:54 AM
Why the Elgarians are at such pains to snipe at any criticism of their idol is - well, perhaps their problem. But it is not the way to win anyone else over to their point of view.  :D

True. But Mahlerites can get even more tetchy. ;D

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 25, 2007, 06:16:34 AM
Actually I consider Falstaff one of Elgar's greatest successes - not only for its tone of humor, but for its formal fluidity. The way in which Elgar keeps in play a highly complex amount of thematic material with very little repetition reminds me, above all, of Debussy's technique in Jeux - another extremely sophisticated work that has never won broad public acclaim.

Had a copy of Falstaff on my shelves for months but it's been left unplayed - indeed, I don't know the work at all. Think I'll spin it this afternoon.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 25, 2007, 06:42:05 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 25, 2007, 06:16:34 AM
Actually I consider Falstaff one of Elgar's greatest successes - not only for its tone of humor, but for its formal fluidity. The way in which Elgar keeps in play a highly complex amount of thematic material with very little repetition reminds me, above all, of Debussy's technique in Jeux - another extremely sophisticated work that has never won broad public acclaim.

A musically excellent comparison, and yet another work I like a whole lot.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Larry Rinkel on September 25, 2007, 06:43:12 AM
Quote from: Mark on September 25, 2007, 06:24:38 AM
True. But Mahlerites can get even more tetchy. ;D

I don't know about that!!!!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 25, 2007, 06:44:24 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 25, 2007, 06:16:34 AM
Actually I consider Falstaff one of Elgar's greatest successes - not only for its tone of humor, but for its formal fluidity.

Indeed.  For me, the real barrier of the symphonies is not the material, not the tone, not the character, not the texture or orchestration (for in all these I find a good deal to like) . . . but how they wear their symphoniness like a concrete cummerbund.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kullervo on September 25, 2007, 06:45:21 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 25, 2007, 06:42:05 AM
A musically excellent comparison, and yet another work I like a whole lot.

You think so? I thought the way he used the themes in Falstaff was like the Wagnerian leitmotif. Jeux to me seems more akin to serialism, in that it's constantly renewing itself with almost no repetition. </Cretin's analysis>
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 25, 2007, 07:24:52 AM
Wow! Falstaff's certainly an interesting proposition. Not quite sure what to make of it after the first hearing.

It definitely has 'Elgar' stamped all over it. Like Delius, Elgar seemed to enjoy that undulating 'rise and fall' to his orchestration - first soft, then loud, then soft, etc. Gave away the piece as his immediately. ;D

But did I like it? And did I like better than his Second Symphony? Hard to say. Not as dense as his symphonies - a fact I appreciated. Would I play it often? Probably not: it feels like it should accompany some stage or cinematic action, and I'd love to hear parts of it so used. But it's not a work I'm likely to fall head over heels in love with, whatever it's merits or charms.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 25, 2007, 07:29:49 AM
Or, maybe on the second or third listening, Mark, it will have its hooks well into yer!  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 25, 2007, 07:32:57 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 25, 2007, 07:29:49 AM
Or, maybe on the second or third listening, Mark, it will have its hooks well into yer!  ;)

Quite possibly. Or perhaps not. The recording of Dvorak's Symphonic Variations with which my Falstaff is paired puts Elgar's efforts in the shade, reminding me once again that Eddy wasn't the world's greatest orchestrator. ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 25, 2007, 07:38:09 AM
Oh, that programming is hard cheddar on Elgar!  The Falstaff I have is on an all-Elgar disc . . . but would I listen to it a lot, if it were on the same disc as Dvořák, Tchaikovsky or Rakhmaninov? But, soft . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 25, 2007, 10:48:42 AM
How liberating! I don't care anymore what other people write about Elgar! I just ignore! I have learned finally!

Please continue! I continue ignoring!  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: BachQ on September 25, 2007, 11:01:22 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 25, 2007, 10:48:42 AM
I just ignore! I have learned finally!

But you're NOT ignoring .........
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 25, 2007, 11:03:48 AM
Quote from: D Minor on September 25, 2007, 11:01:22 AM
But you're NOT ignoring .........

Don't tease him. It's taken Poju ages to appreciate that attacks on Elgar aren't attacks on him. Besides, this thread's now going with a swing - let's not get it locked. ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: BachQ on September 25, 2007, 11:05:47 AM
Quote from: Mark on September 25, 2007, 11:03:48 AM
Don't tease him. It's taken Poju ages to appreciate that attacks on Elgar aren't attacks on him. Besides, this thread's now going with a swing - let's not get it locked. ;D

(I wasn't teasing him ...... I swear)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: dtwilbanks on September 25, 2007, 11:07:53 AM
Yes, the next step in ignoring is to realize in order to completely ignore with competence one must not comment on the ignoring.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: BachQ on September 25, 2007, 11:11:08 AM
Quote from: dtwilbanks on September 25, 2007, 11:07:53 AM
Yes, the next step in ignoring is to realize in order to completely ignore with competence one must not comment on the ignoring.

But at the same time, one shouldn't ignore posts like yours which highlight the art of proper ignoring .......
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: dtwilbanks on September 25, 2007, 11:12:49 AM
Quote from: D Minor on September 25, 2007, 11:11:08 AM
But at the same time, one shouldn't ignore posts like yours which highlight the art of proper ignoring .......

Precisely. You are not ignorant.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Larry Rinkel on September 25, 2007, 11:21:13 AM
Quote from: dtwilbanks on September 25, 2007, 11:07:53 AM
Yes, the next step in ignoring is to realize in order to completely ignore with competence one must not comment on the ignoring.

Precisely: competence in ignoring, like competence in all fields from adultery to homicide, is a matter of considerable skill that can only be manifested when least observable.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 25, 2007, 11:24:42 AM
I think Mike was spot-on with his précis of The Music-Makers, too.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 25, 2007, 11:25:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 25, 2007, 11:24:42 AM
I think Mike was spot-on with his précis of The Music-Makers, too.

It quotes chunks of the Enigma Variations in places, does it not?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: BachQ on September 25, 2007, 11:27:07 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 25, 2007, 11:21:13 AM
like competence in all fields from adultery to homicide,

LOL
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: BachQ on September 25, 2007, 11:28:07 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 25, 2007, 11:24:42 AM
I think Mike was spot-on with his précis of The Music-Makers, too.

Link please
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: bhodges on September 25, 2007, 11:32:09 AM
PS, for anyone in the Minneapolis area next week, a very interesting program around the Beethoven 9th.  My mother is going...I'll ask her to chime in with a report.  ;D

Minnesota Orchestra
Osmo Vänskä, conductor
Helena Juntunen, soprano
Susan Platts, mezzo
Daniel Norman, tenor
Neal Davies, bass
Minnesota Chorale

Elgar: Sospiri  
Argento: Casa Guidi 
Beethoven: Symphony No. 9

--Bruce
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: dtwilbanks on September 25, 2007, 11:35:43 AM
Quote from: bhodges on September 25, 2007, 11:32:09 AM
PS, for anyone in the Minneapolis area next week, a very interesting program around the Beethoven 9th.  My mother is going...I'll ask her to chime in with a report.  ;D

Minnesota Orchestra
Osmo Vänskä, conductor
Helena Juntunen, soprano
Susan Platts, mezzo
Daniel Norman, tenor
Neal Davies, bass
Minnesota Chorale

Elgar: Sospiri  
Argento: Casa Guidi 
Beethoven: Symphony No. 9

--Bruce

I've heard the Ninth twice by Minnesota. And those are the only two times I've ever been in Orchestra Hall.  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: BachQ on September 25, 2007, 11:36:37 AM
Quote from: bhodges on September 25, 2007, 11:32:09 AM
Elgar: Sospiri  
Argento: Casa Guidi 
Beethoven: Symphony No. 9

Who needs Beethoven when you've got Elgar ........
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 25, 2007, 11:37:55 AM
Quote from: D Minor on September 25, 2007, 11:28:07 AM
Link please

Ask and ye shall receive . . . . (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg86315.html#msg86315)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 25, 2007, 11:38:32 AM
Quote from: Mark on September 25, 2007, 11:25:40 AM
It quotes chunks of the Enigma Variations in places, does it not?

Yes, a charming adaptation of 'Nimrod', what I wot of.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: BachQ on September 25, 2007, 11:41:27 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 25, 2007, 11:37:55 AM
Ask and ye shall receive . . . . (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg86315.html#msg86315)

Oh yes, that part about "patchwork of quotes sewen (sic) together" ..........
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on September 25, 2007, 11:42:40 AM
Quote from: bhodges on September 25, 2007, 11:32:09 AM
PS, for anyone in the Minneapolis area next week, a very interesting program around the Beethoven 9th.  My mother is going...I'll ask her to chime in with a report.  ;D

Minnesota Orchestra
Osmo Vänskä, conductor
Helena Juntunen, soprano
Susan Platts, mezzo
Daniel Norman, tenor
Neal Davies, bass
Minnesota Chorale

Elgar: Sospiri  
Argento: Casa Guidi 
Beethoven: Symphony No. 9

--Bruce

Lovely: Vanska peddaling his soulless interpretation of the Ninth. ::) ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 25, 2007, 11:43:35 AM
Quote from: D Minor on September 25, 2007, 11:41:27 AM
Oh yes, that part about "patchwork of quotes . . . .

I'm thinking of writing a brief oratorio . . . Sewen, They Are Sewen . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: bhodges on September 25, 2007, 11:51:51 AM
Quote from: dtwilbanks on September 25, 2007, 11:35:43 AM
I've heard the Ninth twice by Minnesota. And those are the only two times I've ever been in Orchestra Hall.  ;D

;D

I would go just for the first two (then you could leave at intermission  ;D  ;D  ;D).

The Argento is a beautiful song cycle, the first work by him I ever heard (a radio broadcast, with Frederica von Stade).  I'm not familiar with Susan Platts, who's singing it here, but the piece is well worth hearing. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 05, 2007, 06:42:25 AM
I apologize if this has been already posted in here.

http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/070411-NL-elgar.html
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Larry Rinkel on October 05, 2007, 08:06:42 AM
Quote from: dtw on October 05, 2007, 06:42:25 AM
I apologize if this has been already posted in here.

http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/070411-NL-elgar.html

And so here we have an Englishman who thinks Elgar inferior and less important to British music than a Finn, and a Finn who thinks Elgar superior to and more important than any composer period.  :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 05, 2007, 08:25:23 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on October 05, 2007, 08:06:42 AM
And so here we have an Englishman who thinks Elgar inferior and less important to British music than a Finn, and a Finn who thinks Elgar superior to and more important than any composer period.  :D

I can't say much. I haven't found an American composer I really like, unless you count Duke Ellington. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kullervo on October 06, 2007, 09:33:40 AM
Quote from: dtw on October 05, 2007, 06:42:25 AM
I apologize if this has been already posted in here.

http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/070411-NL-elgar.html

He is comparing two composers who were coming from two different places entirely (both literally and figuratively). According to this logic, we should also hold Haydn up to the standards of say, Schumann.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: sound67 on October 15, 2007, 10:58:10 PM
In contrast, ClassicToday's Victor Farr on Elgar's orchestration:

"Boult's scrupulous attention to the subtle timbres of Elgar's orchestration at times make the music sound almost Debussyian."

(Review of Boult/Lyrita Elgar 1 & 2)

Thomas
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Montpellier on October 17, 2007, 07:23:23 AM
Quote from: sound67 on October 15, 2007, 10:58:10 PM
In contrast, ClassicToday's Victor Farr on Elgar's orchestration:

"Boult's scrupulous attention to the subtle timbres of Elgar's orchestration at times make the music sound almost Debussyian."

(Review of Boult/Lyrita Elgar 1 & 2)

Thomas

Oh dear..... 

(I know the recording well but I'm blowed if I can hear anything Debussian about it.  Maybe the reviewer omitted to turn his hearing aid on.)

.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 20, 2007, 01:20:48 PM
I am listening to Elgar's 1st Symphony by Colin Davis on Profil label (Staatskapelle Dresden). Sounds pretty damn good! 

Thanks Mark!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on October 20, 2007, 01:57:34 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 20, 2007, 01:20:48 PM
I am listening to Elgar's 1st Symphony by Colin Davis on Profil label (Staatskapelle Dresden). Sounds pretty damn good! 

Thanks Mark!

Thought you'd like that. Got a certain edginess, hasn't it? Kinda raw, not soft-focused like some interpretations. All the better for being a live recording, too. Gives it an extra energy. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 20, 2007, 02:00:07 PM
Quote from: Mark on October 20, 2007, 01:57:34 PM
Thought you'd like that. Got a certain edginess, hasn't it? Kinda raw, not soft-focused like some interpretations. All the better for being a live recording, too. Gives it an extra energy. :)

Actually I didn't like the live recording noises but the performance is good. Naxos is my reference and it has lots of edge too.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: BachQ on October 20, 2007, 02:10:49 PM
Quote from: Mark on October 20, 2007, 01:57:34 PM
Kinda raw, not soft-focused like some interpretations.

Which ones are soft-focused?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Larry Rinkel on October 20, 2007, 02:28:04 PM
Quote from: Anancho on October 17, 2007, 07:23:23 AM
Oh dear..... 

(I know the recording well but I'm blowed if I can hear anything Debussian about it.  Maybe the reviewer omitted to turn his hearing aid on.)

.

He did say "almost."
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on October 20, 2007, 02:30:41 PM
Quote from: D Minor on October 20, 2007, 02:10:49 PM
Which ones are soft-focused?

Alas, I cannot accurately detail them. I've heard a couple (in part only) on the radio in recent years. They seemed too ...  yes, soft-focused is the only apt way to describe them. I think Sir Andrew Davis - whom I usually love conducting Elgar - may be among the 'guilty' parties.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 21, 2007, 03:16:19 AM
Quote from: Mark on October 20, 2007, 02:30:41 PM
Alas, I cannot accurately detail them. I've heard a couple (in part only) on the radio in recent years. They seemed too ...  yes, soft-focused is the only apt way to describe them. I think Sir Andrew Davis - whom I usually love conducting Elgar - may be among the 'guilty' parties.

Just when I am considering the Sir Andrew Davis box of Elgar you tell this scary stuff.  :o
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on October 21, 2007, 03:47:35 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 21, 2007, 03:16:19 AM
Just when I am considering the Sir Andrew Davis box of Elgar you tell this scary stuff.  :o

Buy in good faith, sir - I believe the Davis I heard was a live broadcast. ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 21, 2007, 03:49:14 AM
Quote from: Mark on October 21, 2007, 03:47:35 AM
Buy in good faith, sir - I believe the Davis I heard was a live broadcast. ;)

OK!  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: BachQ on October 21, 2007, 06:56:02 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 21, 2007, 03:16:19 AM
Just when I am considering the Sir Andrew Davis box of Elgar you tell this scary stuff.  :o

We feel your pain .......... and we're here for you, Pujo ..........

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: sound67 on October 21, 2007, 11:14:53 AM
Quote from: Mark on October 20, 2007, 02:30:41 PM
Alas, I cannot accurately detail them. I've heard a couple (in part only) on the radio in recent years. They seemed too ...  yes, soft-focused is the only apt way to describe them. I think Sir Andrew Davis - whom I usually love conducting Elgar - may be among the 'guilty' parties.

Well, I can. Sinopoli!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on October 21, 2007, 02:15:41 PM
Quote from: sound67 on October 21, 2007, 11:14:53 AM
Well, I can. Sinopoli!

Hurrah! I knew you'd come through on this one. :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Bonehelm on October 21, 2007, 03:03:02 PM
Speaking of Sinopoli, I just finished listening to his Elgar cello concerto with the Philharmonia orchestra. Don't know who the soloist is but it's on DG. The playing and recording are superb, but the excessive breathing and sometimes even sighing of the performer (must be the cellist) somewhat annoys me. Good sound though.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on October 21, 2007, 03:19:37 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on October 21, 2007, 03:03:02 PM
... but the excessive breathing and sometimes even sighing of the performer (must be the cellist) somewhat annoys me. Good sound though.

You sure that 'sighing' is not caused by bow action on strings, rather than by the cellist? Whenever I've heard a cello up close in recital, that 'sighing' is usually evident - I look at the performer's face, and there's no visible sign of them making such a noise. ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Bonehelm on October 21, 2007, 04:08:07 PM
Quote from: Mark on October 21, 2007, 03:19:37 PM
You sure that 'sighing' is not caused by bow action on strings, rather than by the cellist? Whenever I've heard a cello up close in recital, that 'sighing' is usually evident - I look at the performer's face, and there's no visible sign of them making such a noise. ;)

Maybe the sighing is not really sighing, but the breathing must be. I play in a semi-professional ensemble myself, and I know exactly how instrument players breathe before they play a lyrical phrase. But in this recording the breathing is so prevalent and outstanding that it annoys the listener because it's not a part of the music.

I'm trying to listen to Elgar's depiction of 1918 post-war Britain, not a guy suffocating after running an hour non stop on the treadmill.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 21, 2007, 04:44:33 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on October 21, 2007, 04:08:07 PM
I'm trying to listen to Elgar's depiction of 1918 post-war Britain,

Don't you mean 1919?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kullervo on October 21, 2007, 05:10:36 PM
I actually like breathing. It's humming that bothers me.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Bonehelm on October 21, 2007, 05:37:38 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 21, 2007, 04:44:33 PM
Don't you mean 1919?
The war ended in 1918.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: sound67 on October 21, 2007, 06:13:56 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on October 21, 2007, 03:03:02 PM
Speaking of Sinopoli, I just finished listening to his Elgar cello concerto with the Philharmonia orchestra. Don't know who the soloist is but it's on DG.

It's Mischa Maisky.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Bonehelm on October 21, 2007, 08:39:39 PM
Quote from: sound67 on October 21, 2007, 06:13:56 PM
It's Mischa Maisky.

Yeah, him, the athlete who totally overexercises at running. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 22, 2007, 01:48:46 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on October 21, 2007, 05:37:38 PM
The war ended in 1918.

So? Elgar finished his Cello Concerto in 1919 and the first performance was in 26 October 1919.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on October 22, 2007, 06:38:01 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 22, 2007, 01:48:46 AM
So? Elgar finished his Cello Concerto in 1919 and the first performance was in 26 October 1919.

So? The war ended in 1918, and the end of the war was possibly in Elgar's mind as he composed the work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 22, 2007, 06:45:31 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 22, 2007, 06:38:01 AM
So? The war ended in 1918, and the end of the war was possibly in Elgar's mind as he composed the work.

So? Who cares what Elgar had in mind? I suppose nobody on this forum has experienced the end of WWI. How could we understand the musical pointers?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: BachQ on October 22, 2007, 06:52:25 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 22, 2007, 06:45:31 AM
So? Who cares what Elgar had in mind?

Spoken like a true Elgar scholar ..........
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on October 22, 2007, 06:55:48 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 22, 2007, 06:45:31 AM
Who cares what Elgar had in mind?

At last we are in complete agreement, Poju  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Bonehelm on October 22, 2007, 07:42:35 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 22, 2007, 06:45:31 AM
So? Who cares what Elgar had in mind? I suppose nobody on this forum has experienced the end of WWI. How could we understand the musical pointers?

Is it just me or is Poju in his mad mind, talking B.S. again?

Thanks for slapping your own face, as a true scholar and admirer of the great composer Edward William Elgar, you don't really give a shit about what was in his mind when he wrote his magnum opus. Then comes some other nonsense about how people need to experience some historical event to know it. Were you alive in Elgar's time? I'd be damned if you were. Then how are you so "knowledgeable" about the man and his music?

Two thumbs up. Way to go.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kullervo on October 22, 2007, 07:53:16 AM
Has it become fashionable to use 71's real name almost as an insult?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 22, 2007, 08:25:20 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on October 22, 2007, 07:42:35 AM
Thanks for slapping your own face, as a true scholar and admirer of the great composer Edward William Elgar, you don't really give a shit about what was in his mind when he wrote his magnum opus. Then comes some other nonsense about how people need to experience some historical event to know it. Were you alive in Elgar's time? I'd be damned if you were. Then how are you so "knowledgeable" about the man and his music?

The principles of art are timeless and universal. What Elgar did have in his mind just happened to be triggered by the war. If Elgar lived now he would perhaps use 9/11 for inspiration. I don't know much about Elgar's time but I still enjoy his music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: BachQ on October 22, 2007, 08:26:43 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 22, 2007, 06:55:48 AM
At last we are in complete agreement, Poju  ;D

Looks like 71dB pulled another Poju .........

Quote from: Corey on October 22, 2007, 07:53:16 AM
Has it become fashionable to use 71's real name almost as an insult?

We would never do that ........
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 22, 2007, 08:38:03 AM
I put my words badly: Of course what Elgar had in mind is relevant for what kind of music he wrote but I mean we don't have much means to know what he had in mind except the obvius grief because of the devastation.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on October 22, 2007, 08:56:10 AM
Gentlemen, please, let's not get another Elgar thread locked. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on October 22, 2007, 08:56:34 AM
Listening to:

In the South; Introduction & Allegro; Sospiri; Enigma Variations (Gardiner, VPO)

and after:

Introduction & Allegro; Serenade; Elegy; Sospiri (Barbirolli, EMI) coupled with RVW Tallis and Greensleves.

There, a non-hostile Elgar post... (unless M wishes to inform us that merely listening to him is endorsing fascism :))
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on October 22, 2007, 08:58:45 AM
Quote from: Lethe on October 22, 2007, 08:56:34 AM
Listening to:

In the South; Introduction & Allegro; Sospiri; Enigma Variations (Gardiner, VPO)

and after:

Introduction & Allegro; Serenade; Elegy; Sospiri (Barbirolli, EMI) coupled with RVW Tallis and Greensleves.

There, a non-hostile Elgar post...

Yes, but it should have gone here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.0.html)  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on October 22, 2007, 09:01:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 22, 2007, 08:58:45 AM
Yes, but it should have gone here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.0.html)  8)

I will break any rules to prevent a third Elgar thread being ruined :P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on October 22, 2007, 09:01:54 AM
I honor your mission  0:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 22, 2007, 09:02:54 AM
Talking about war music Elgar wrote several less known works during the war in order to collect money for the Belgian and Polish victims:

Carillon
Polonia
Une Voix dans le Désert
Le Drapeau Belge
Fringes of the Fleet

Quote from: Mark on October 22, 2007, 08:56:10 AM
Gentlemen, please, let's not get another Elgar thread locked. :)

No panic Mark, I am cool.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on October 22, 2007, 09:07:26 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 22, 2007, 09:02:54 AM
Talking about war music Elgar wrote several less known works during the war in order to collect money for the Belgian and Polish victims:

Carillon
Polonia
Une Voix dans le Désert
Le Drapeau Belge
Fringes of the Fleet

Aaah, that is a cool (and insightful) post :) What format are they in, and are any easy to buy on single CD (either an obscurities only disc, or coupled with more famous works)?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 22, 2007, 09:20:16 AM
Quote from: Lethe on October 22, 2007, 09:07:26 AM
Aaah, that is a cool (and insightful) post :) What format are they in, and are any easy to buy on single CD (either an obscurities only disc, or coupled with more famous works)?

This (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-War-Music-Paul-Kenyon/dp/B00008FITG/ref=sr_1_1/202-9113303-0581422?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1193073422&sr=1-1) has all the these works.

These are orchestral works with singing and narration.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Larry Rinkel on October 22, 2007, 11:43:03 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 22, 2007, 08:25:20 AM
The principles of art are timeless and universal. What Elgar did have in his mind just happened to be triggered by the war. If Elgar lived now he would perhaps use 9/11 for inspiration. I don't know much about Elgar's time but I still enjoy his music.

Actually that's a pretty good answer.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on October 22, 2007, 11:47:36 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on October 22, 2007, 11:43:03 AM
Actually that's a pretty good answer.

It is, indeed;  incomparably sounder than his "Don't you mean 1919?" in response to Elgar's depiction of 1918 post-war Britain.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: BachQ on October 22, 2007, 11:47:59 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on October 22, 2007, 11:43:03 AM
Actually that's a pretty good answer.

Except how does Poju know that "What Elgar did have in his mind just happened to be triggered by the war." ??
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 22, 2007, 01:05:42 PM
Quote from: D Minor on October 22, 2007, 11:47:59 AM
Except how does Poju know that "What Elgar did have in his mind just happened to be triggered by the war." ??

War triggers everyone's mind.   ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Bonehelm on October 22, 2007, 04:34:20 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 22, 2007, 01:05:42 PM
War triggers everyone's mind.   ;)

Oh dear, he's speaking for everyone again... ::)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Larry Rinkel on October 22, 2007, 04:37:35 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on October 22, 2007, 04:34:20 PM
Oh dear, he's speaking for everyone again... ::)

OK, OK. What if we said: "War triggers everyone's mind except Bonehelm's"?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Bonehelm on October 22, 2007, 04:57:27 PM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on October 22, 2007, 04:37:35 PM
OK, OK. What if we said: "War triggers everyone's mind except Bonehelm's"?

No.

"War triggers everyone's mind except Bonehelm's and Larry's."
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hector on October 23, 2007, 04:07:16 AM
I've ordered the Clein.

It woz the cover that sold it to me! ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on October 23, 2007, 04:43:54 AM
Quote from: Hector on October 23, 2007, 04:07:16 AM
I've ordered the Clein.

It woz the cover that sold it to me! ;D

It's got a decent write-up. They say she tries not to be like Du Pre, but actually comes off a little like her in places.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on November 26, 2007, 10:45:13 PM
Got this from our local library and just stumbled across:

Sospiri / op.70: Adagio for Strings, Harp and Organ
Wiener Philharmoniker/Gardiner.


OH THIS IS SO BEAUTIFUL! Even more than that. I love it from the very beginning.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on November 27, 2007, 06:04:04 AM
Sospiri is a lovely little piece.

Looking forward very much to The Dream of Gerontius here in Symphony Hall next month.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on November 27, 2007, 09:08:47 AM
More appropriately, I post this at the Veranda, but I link here because of the tie-in to Gerontius, which (again) I am greatly looking forward to hearing live. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,220.msg112319.html#msg112319)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hector on November 28, 2007, 03:44:58 AM
Quote from: Mark on October 23, 2007, 04:43:54 AM
It's got a decent write-up. They say she tries not to be like Du Pre, but actually comes off a little like her in places.

It was the thought of her playing dressed in her leather gear.

Ride 'em, Natalie.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: longears on November 28, 2007, 04:41:45 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on November 26, 2007, 10:45:13 PM
Got this from our local library and just stumbled across:

Sospiri / op.70: Adagio for Strings, Harp and Organ
Wiener Philharmoniker/Gardiner.


OH THIS IS SO BEAUTIFUL! Even more than that. I love it from the very beginning.
Yep--haven't heard Gardiner's recording but this is absolutely beautiful music.  You might also like his Introduction and Allegro and Elegy for strings.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hector on November 30, 2007, 06:45:32 AM
Quote from: Mark on October 23, 2007, 04:43:54 AM
It's got a decent write-up. They say she tries not to be like Du Pre, but actually comes off a little like her in places.

Seriously, though, putting her dress aside, she is certainly an antidote to Du Pre as far as I am concerned.

An intellectual performance that, initially, comes across as low-key but begs you to listen again. It is not often you get the feeling from a recording that this was made with home listening in mind, as I did. I see some have commented on the underlying darkness in the reading which is what is expected, surely, of this work written in the wake of the human catastrophe that preceded it.

If you think Du Pre is the 'Dogs Bollocks' in this piece then Clein will offer no appeal. I find her performance growing on me and I haven't had a recording of this work since I sold Tortelier/Boult on LP years ago.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on November 30, 2007, 07:21:25 AM
Quote from: Hector on November 30, 2007, 06:45:32 AM
. . . the 'Dogs Bollocks' in this piece

Do I understand you to mean that that's a good thing?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on November 30, 2007, 07:26:14 AM
And for a frank tangent . . . my introduction to Mark Elder is this wonderful disc of Falstaff, the Cello Concerto, Bassoon Romance and the stumpy bits of the Smoking Cantata;  he is coming to Boston as a guest to conduct the BSO in Sibelius (with Vadim Repin playing the Violin Concerto) and the Shostakovich Fourth.  Really looking forwad to that 'un.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on November 30, 2007, 01:36:27 PM
Quote from: Hector on November 30, 2007, 06:45:32 AM
Seriously, though, putting her dress aside, she is certainly an antidote to Du Pre as far as I am concerned.

An intellectual performance that, initially, comes across as low-key but begs you to listen again. It is not often you get the feeling from a recording that this was made with home listening in mind, as I did. I see some have commented on the underlying darkness in the reading which is what is expected, surely, of this work written in the wake of the human catastrophe that preceded it.

If you think Du Pre is the 'Dogs Bollocks' in this piece then Clein will offer no appeal. I find her performance growing on me and I haven't had a recording of this work since I sold Tortelier/Boult on LP years ago.



May I suggest another 'antidote' to Du Pre (whom, for the record, I do consider the 'mutt's nuts' in this work)? Try Robert Cohen with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra under Mackerras on Decca (or Argo, if you can find it).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: not edward on November 30, 2007, 07:05:10 PM
Quote from: Mark on November 30, 2007, 01:36:27 PM
May I suggest another 'antidote' to Du Pre (whom, for the record, I do consider the 'mutt's nuts' in this work)? Try Robert Cohen with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra under Mackerras on Decca (or Argo, if you can find it).
Another good antidote: Pieter Wispelwey on Channel Classics (which comes with an excellent Lutoslawski concerto as well).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Israfel the Black on November 30, 2007, 10:31:46 PM
Du Pre is the benchmark, but I think Tortelier's reading of the Cello Concerto is as good as any.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mark on November 30, 2007, 11:30:33 PM
Quote from: edward on November 30, 2007, 07:05:10 PM
Another good antidote: Pieter Wispelwey on Channel Classics (which comes with an excellent Lutoslawski concerto as well).

Might download that next month. Cheers! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: longears on December 01, 2007, 04:51:27 AM
Quote from: Israfel the Black on November 30, 2007, 10:31:46 PM
Tortelier's reading of the Cello Concerto is as good as any.
And better than most.  I bought the Angel LP unheard after a glowing review back in about '74 and damned near wore it out!

Welcome to GMG, Izzy! 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hector on December 03, 2007, 06:47:13 AM
Quote from: Israfel the Black on November 30, 2007, 10:31:46 PM
Du Pre is the benchmark, but I think Tortelier's reading of the Cello Concerto is as good as any.

I had Tortelier on LP having had the good fortune to witness the great Frenchman play it at one time.

Wispelwey is, also, excellent and I do not know the Cohen but Watkins' Proms performance has just been made available for download by DG if anybody is interested.

This weekend there were some favourable comments about the Clein. Could be a 'sleeper.'

Yes, you cannot get anything better than the 'dogs bollocks'! ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 31, 2007, 05:38:53 AM
Elgar year is almost over...  :P

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on December 31, 2007, 05:44:14 AM
Well, you cannot really fault the BSO for performing Gerontius in 2008 . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Bonehelm on January 01, 2008, 12:05:46 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 31, 2007, 05:38:53 AM
Elgar year is almost over...  :P



Have you ever heard of "everyday is a valentines day with a true lover" ?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: greg on January 01, 2008, 01:51:51 PM
Quote from: 復活交響曲 on January 01, 2008, 12:05:46 PM
Have you ever heard of "everyday is a valentines day with a true lover" ?
i haven't, though i suppose the true lover must be oneself, since you are the only person who understands yourself.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: samuel on February 06, 2008, 01:35:27 PM
which du pre recording of the cello concerto do you prefer, barenboim or barbirolli?

and what is your favorite recording of the violin concerto?

thanks:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Bonehelm on February 06, 2008, 06:52:27 PM
Quote from: Samuel on February 06, 2008, 01:35:27 PM
which du pre recording of the cello concerto do you prefer, barenboim or barbirolli?

and what is your favorite recording of the violin concerto?

thanks:)

For the CC, if you ask 10 people, 10 of them will tell you to go with Barbriolli.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 06, 2008, 06:56:51 PM
Quote from: Samuel on February 06, 2008, 01:35:27 PM
and what is your favorite recording of the violin concerto?

Haven't heard it yet myself, but I've been hearing a lot of good things about the Ehnes/Davies.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 06, 2008, 07:08:44 PM
Quote from: Nande ya nen? on February 06, 2008, 06:52:27 PM
For the CC, if you ask 10 people, 10 of them will tell you to go with Barbriolli.
Barbriolli? Never heard of him. Sounds Italian, didn't know Jacky recorded anything with an Italian conductor.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Bonehelm on February 06, 2008, 07:14:06 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 06, 2008, 07:08:44 PM
Barbriolli? Never heard of him. Sounds Italian, didn't know Jacky recorded anything with an Italian conductor.

YOU NEVER HEARD OF JOHN BARBRIOLLI?

omg...the man has a lot of legendary recordings on EMI...like Mahler 9 for example...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 06, 2008, 07:21:55 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 06, 2008, 07:08:44 PM
Barbriolli? Never heard of him. Sounds Italian, didn't know Jacky recorded anything with an Italian conductor.

Then possibly you've heard of Sir John Barbirolli, who despite his last name was British through and through.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hector on February 08, 2008, 05:46:47 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on February 06, 2008, 07:21:55 PM
Then possibly you've heard of Sir John Barbirolli, who despite his last name was British through and through.

You are wasting your time as this is a guy who has no idea where his pseudonym originated!

I'm not telling him. He can find out for himself that it was coined by a famous Socialist playwright!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 08, 2008, 06:07:11 AM
Quote from: Hector on February 08, 2008, 05:46:47 AM
You are wasting your time as this is a guy who has no idea where his pseudonym originated!

I'm not telling him. He can find out for himself that it was coined by a famous Socialist playwright!

Well, pshaw to that!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 08, 2008, 06:18:41 AM
Quote from: Hector on February 08, 2008, 05:46:47 AM
You are wasting your time as this is a guy who has no idea where his pseudonym originated!

Like PW, I never heard of Barbriolli either  ;D  We're both quite familiar with Barbirolli though.

Quote from: Sforzando on February 08, 2008, 06:07:11 AM
Well, pshaw to that!

;D :D ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 08, 2008, 06:19:02 AM
Quote from: Hector on February 08, 2008, 05:46:47 AM
You are wasting your time as this is a guy who has no idea where his pseudonym originated!

I'm not telling him. He can find out for himself that it was coined by a famous Socialist playwright!
Why should I care? That bothers you? Does that make you mad?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on June 01, 2008, 12:47:46 AM
(http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/1013/61knec63j8lsl500aa240wk3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Last night I listened again this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Light-Life-Sir-Edward/dp/B000000ASX/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1212308956&sr=1-15) recording of Elgar's The Light of Life, Op. 29.

This oratorio finished in 1896 is the prelude to the The Apostles and The Kingdom oratorios and shows Elgar's genius starting to blossom. It's shorter (60 minutes), less complex and lighter. It is a good starting point if you want to explore Elgar's choral works. Hickox's performance is wonderful. Highly recommended CD!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on August 23, 2008, 07:04:26 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CZFK6H0PL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Sonata for Violin and Piano in E minor
Very easy melodious exercises in the first position
Salut d'amour, 'Liebesgrüss'
Mot d'amour, 'Liebesahnung'
Canto popolare
Sospiri
Chanson de nuit
Chanson de matin

Does this disc have any competition as a collection of odds and ends? The main reason I would buy it was for the non-sonata violin material, and of that, I would like as much as possible...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on August 23, 2008, 10:33:04 AM
Lethe, if you want obscure Elgar violin material check Marat Bisengaliev's and Benjamin Frith's "Elgar: re-discovered works for violin" volumes 1 & 2 on black box label. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on August 23, 2008, 10:51:35 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 23, 2008, 10:33:04 AM
Lethe, if you want obscure Elgar violin material check Marat Bisengaliev's and Benjamin Frith's "Elgar: re-discovered works for violin" volumes 1 & 2 on black box label. 

Ooh that does sound better (more comprehensive) - I would imagine the sound quality will be much nicer as well, as the Kennedy disc is early digital. Thanks :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 19, 2008, 11:43:45 AM
Quote from: Lethe on August 23, 2008, 10:51:35 AM
...as the Kennedy disc is early digital. Thanks :)

Late response, sorry.

Recorded in: St Georges Church, Bloomsbury, London 6,7 January 1984. I never realised that Kennedy recording is that old! I don't have it... ...those black box discs have good sound imo.

You're welcome!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 19, 2008, 11:49:52 AM
Is that the Kennedy performance with Handley?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 19, 2008, 01:16:45 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 19, 2008, 11:49:52 AM
Is that the Kennedy performance with Handley?
We are talking about Elgar's music for violin and piano.

Nigel Kennedy violin
Peter Pettinger piano
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 19, 2008, 04:35:59 PM
Thanks for the clarification, Poju!  :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Martin Lind on November 01, 2008, 07:06:48 PM
Since yesterday I have this inexpensive set:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2007/Oct07/Elgar_Collectors_5036032.jpg)

I had to wait 25 days for this set.

I have already some good things from Elgar. 1st symphony Judd, 2nd symphony Downes, also the 3rd, the three oratories, two recordings of the violin concerto, Cello concerto, Enigma variations, piano quintett, Falstaff, one CD with shorter pieces,  and some other stuff.

So I have already some things from Elgar, but this was a good offer and I am glad that I bought it. I love Elgar alot and I simply can't understand why so many people talk derogatorily of Elgar. His music is noble, has a genuine beauty and touches your heart. Not everything will be of the very first order, but still this is very great music.

I am very glad that I have got this box and am able to explore some more Elgar or hear some other recordings of works which I already love. I already heard the Enigma variations with Barbirolli and like that more than Jochum, the cello concerto with Jaquline du Pres is glorious and I also liked the seapictures with Janet Baker, the Pomp und Circumstances and the serenade. I knew all these works before but liked the recordings from this box, all Barbirolli which I didn't know.

Regards
Martin
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 02, 2008, 02:34:38 AM
Martin, it's nice to see somebody else to stand behind Elgar. Ever since I found Elgar's music 12 years ago I have been sad/frustrated to see how few us Elgarians are and how belittled this awesome composer is among many fans of classical music.

I already own many of the CDs included in this boxset but I think someday I will purchase it anyway.  0:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Martin Lind on November 02, 2008, 08:12:05 AM
Well, nobody has to love Elgar. If you don't like him, that's alright. You can also despise Beethoven and Bach. The only thing which sometimes disturbes me is some kind of "argumentation". For example, Elgar is only an English composer, held only in high regard in England for he is kind of a national monument but without importance for other people. Or he is a typical example of "the Victorian era" but somehow "oldfashioned", maybe even "imperialistic" and therefore without importance for today. I don't like it if people are arguing that way. We should talk about music not about all these pictures of Elgar which are so popular but definetely misleading.

But another question. Are there sources in the internet where I can read the English texts of Elgars works? As I am no native speaker it is difficult for me to follow the word meaning of oratories, songs and all that. The Emibox - though a splendid bargain - leaves you completely alone with this. I would be very gratefull, to know some texts.

Otherwise I would be glad, if this thread could become some kind of "listening companion" for my further exploration of Elgars works.

Another interesting question is, wether this 30 CD box of Elgar really completely covers the works of Elgar - obviously not - but what is missing?

Regards
Martin
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kuhlau on November 02, 2008, 09:47:15 AM
Quote from: Martin Lind on November 02, 2008, 08:12:05 AMAnother interesting question is, wether this 30 CD box of Elgar really completely covers the works of Elgar - obviously not - but what is missing?

I think you'll find this helpful, Martin. :)

Chronology of Elgar's compositions (http://www.elgar.org/3chronol.htm)

FK
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 02, 2008, 10:05:28 AM
Quote from: Martin Lind on November 02, 2008, 08:12:05 AMAnother interesting question is, wether this 30 CD box of Elgar really completely covers the works of Elgar - obviously not - but what is missing?

Regards
Martin

It does not cover everything. Elgar has tons of obscure/unfinished works that can be found "elaborated" elsewhere. Elgar wrote about 40 CDs worth of music so this boxset covers about 75 %.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Martin Lind on November 03, 2008, 03:15:27 AM
Thank you for your help and your response. Well I still miss the texts of Elgars works, I hope I can find them somewhere, the search for this in the internet was without success.

Listened alot to my Elgarbox the recent days - marvelous. I simply can't understand why this composer isn't estimated higher. I find in Elgar this simple and subtle, shy, touching beauty which I find in Brahms, this is why I really love Elgar. He is no Brahms clone of course, in many aspects he is quite differant, but he has that tone which is why he so stands out.

I can't understand that he is not regarded higher in Germany where he has his fans of course but you find alot stupid remarks too. I don't know why he is so terribly English, I think all this as a matter of fact damages his reputation, he should be regarded more as a composer of international importance with English origin.

And then I read the text of the back of my Emibox that Elgar is heard for "national rejoice". Well why not, why not listening to Elgar for "national rejoice", I will not judge that, but I would have prefered a text which would have emphasized the fact that Elgar is loved by many people in the world. Or even better no text of that kind at all. Though there is still much misunderstanding I think that better times for Elgar will come. Also abroad. And in my opinion he is certainly better and more important than alot composers who are regarded higher in the moment.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on November 03, 2008, 01:10:33 PM
Here is a source for the libretto of Dream of Gerontius.

http://www.elgar.org/3gerontl.htm

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Guido on November 03, 2008, 05:05:27 PM
I may have just ordered the box (30 CDs), along with the Vaughan Williams box (30 CDs) and the 65 CD Beethoven one too... Looking forward to it!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 04, 2008, 08:03:00 AM
Quote from: Martin Lind on November 03, 2008, 03:15:27 AM
Listened alot to my Elgarbox the recent days - marvelous. I simply can't understand why this composer isn't estimated higher. I find in Elgar this simple and subtle, shy, touching beauty which I find in Brahms, this is why I really love Elgar. He is no Brahms clone of course, in many aspects he is quite differant, but he has that tone which is why he so stands out.

Personally I find Elgar's music much more colourful but I agree about the similarities, especially in chamber music.

Quote from: Martin Lind on November 03, 2008, 03:15:27 AMI can't understand that he is not regarded higher in Germany where he has his fans of course but you find alot stupid remarks too. I don't know why he is so terribly English, I think all this as a matter of fact damages his reputation, he should be regarded more as a composer of international importance with English origin.

Elgar happens to be just one of many composers who aren't regarded highly enough.

Quote from: Martin Lind on November 03, 2008, 03:15:27 AMAnd then I read the text of the back of my Emibox that Elgar is heard for "national rejoice". Well why not, why not listening to Elgar for "national rejoice", I will not judge that, but I would have prefered a text which would have emphasized the fact that Elgar is loved by many people in the world. Or even better no text of that kind at all. Though there is still much misunderstanding I think that better times for Elgar will come. Also abroad. And in my opinion he is certainly better and more important than alot composers who are regarded higher in the moment.

National rejoice is marketing mambo jambo. Elgar is my favorite composer. I used to be aggressive promoting him but I have seen it isn't the way. Now I am careful about what I say. I hope you are right about the better times.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on November 04, 2008, 08:05:53 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 04, 2008, 08:03:00 AM
Personally I find Elgar's music much more colourful but I agree about the similarities, especially in chamber music.

I find Elgar's concerti generally more colorful than Brahms;  but for the symphonies, I think Brahms has a better-defined pallette.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kuhlau on November 04, 2008, 08:09:26 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 04, 2008, 08:05:53 AM
I find Elgar's concerti generally more colorful than Brahms;  but for the symphonies, I think Brahms has a better-defined pallette.

I'd certainly concur with this. There's much to admire in (at least) Elgar's First Symphony. But when placed alongside any symphony by Brahms, Elgar's symphonic output does seem to pale.

FK
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 04, 2008, 08:11:46 AM
I really enjoy Elgar's symphonies. Perhaps I just don't get Brahms because I don't find his symphonies even near those of Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kuhlau on November 04, 2008, 08:16:31 AM
The key to Brahms' symphonies is all in the interpretation, IMO. If you're struggling to appreciate their colour, shape and both their intricacies and their broader sweep, Solti's famous Decca set might be just the ticket.

But now I'm taking us OT. ;)

FK
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Martin Lind on November 05, 2008, 04:12:20 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 04, 2008, 08:03:00 AM
Elgar is my favorite composer. I used to be aggressive promoting him but I have seen it isn't the way. Now I am careful about what I say. I hope you are right about the better times.


Well there is certainly no use to promote Elgar "aggressively". On the other hand Elgar bashing is sometimes really stupid. If you don't like Elgar OK but it is enervating to fight against all this misguiding images of Elgar. Just listen to Elgar, at least to his very best works and make up your mind. But if you have already a bad image of Elgar you will find nothing than your prejudices. And Elgar is not simple, for example in the symphonies where there is so much "information" and "development" and nothing goes an easy way, as a matter of fact Elgar is challenging which you wouldn't expect if you would know nothing than the Pomp and Circumstances. By the way I am not analytic. I can't analyse Elgar. But I think if you listen to Elgars symphonies at the first time, many things will make "no sense" to you and this is a normal reaction. You must know Elgar a bit better if you really want to appriciate him. This is why Elgar is challenging. It may be even more challenging to analyse his works but this is something I can't judge.

By the way I listened to Elgars symphonies with Barbirolli and liked the 1st, maybe more than Judd, but I didn't like the second where I prefer the Downes. I am glad that you like the Downes too. This is a splendid recording.

But after all: Everybody is responsible for himselve. Therefore when you miss Elgar it's your own fault. I am glad that I haven't missed Elgar!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kuhlau on November 05, 2008, 05:41:57 AM
Quote from: Martin Lind on November 05, 2008, 04:12:20 AM
And Elgar is not simple, for example in the symphonies where there is so much "information" and "development" and nothing goes an easy way ...

One possible explanation for this might be that Elgar was self-taught. Given that he went without the benefit of formal compositional training, is it tenable that this had an impact on his musical language?

FK
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 05, 2008, 08:27:18 AM
Quote from: Martin Lind on November 05, 2008, 04:12:20 AM
Well there is certainly no use to promote Elgar "aggressively".

I have learned that the hard way.  :P

Quote from: Martin Lind on November 05, 2008, 04:12:20 AMAnd Elgar is not simple, for example in the symphonies where there is so much "information" and "development" and nothing goes an easy way, as a matter of fact Elgar is challenging which you wouldn't expect if you would know nothing than the Pomp and Circumstances.

I have been talking about Elgar's complexity a lot. Unfortunately it has ended in jokes about "vibrational fields". Some people have admitted there's something in Elgar after listening to his music more carefully. Some other people won't admit Elgar's greatness no matter what. We all are entitled to our opinions of course.

Quote from: Martin Lind on November 05, 2008, 04:12:20 AMBy the way I am not analytic. I can't analyse Elgar.

I "analyse" Elgar in my own way, the way I analyse all music.

Quote from: Martin Lind on November 05, 2008, 04:12:20 AMBut I think if you listen to Elgars symphonies at the first time, many things will make "no sense" to you and this is a normal reaction. You must know Elgar a bit better if you really want to appriciate him. This is why Elgar is challenging. It may be even more challenging to analyse his works but this is something I can't judge.

The first time I heard Elgar's symphonies they made sense but there was a lot things that revealed themselves during further listening. The key to Elgar's music is the understanding of quiet passages. They are amazingly rich, there's so much "vibrations" going on. That's one thing I admire in Elgar. The music is always rich no matter how loud or quiet it is. It's like looking into a forest. You see some trees near you and those trees look large. You also see many "smaller" trees in the distance, behind each other. A layered structure of depth is created. But that's just me with my trees and "vibrational fields."  ;D

Quote from: Martin Lind on November 05, 2008, 04:12:20 AMBy the way I listened to Elgars symphonies with Barbirolli and liked the 1st, maybe more than Judd, but I didn't like the second where I prefer the Downes. I am glad that you like the Downes too. This is a splendid recording.

But after all: Everybody is responsible for himselve. Therefore when you miss Elgar it's your own fault. I am glad that I haven't missed Elgar!

Shockingly, I haven't heard Barbirolli's takes of these symphonies. I think the 2nd symphony is misunderstood by many. I find it one of the most sophisticated works of Elgar. Sophisticated is so good word to describe that symphony! Perhaps Barbirolli didn't get 100 % of it after all?

Quote from: Kuhlau on November 05, 2008, 05:41:57 AM
One possible explanation for this might be that Elgar was self-taught. Given that he went without the benefit of formal compositional training, is it tenable that this had an impact on his musical language?

FK

I have never undertood this obsession of formal composition. Isn't formal often boring? I think the real difference between Elgar and so called formal composers is the length of time segments of influences.  Elgar's influences are heavily rooted in composers such as J. S. Bach, Handel, Beethoven but also Berlioz and Brahms. Elgar is not "formal" in sense of certain time period or style but is a (brilliant) combination of many styles of different times. Yes, Elgar was self-taught but that's not a weakness. He found his strenghts and created his own rich "multiformal" style.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on November 05, 2008, 08:39:14 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 05, 2008, 08:27:18 AM
. . . Some people have admitted there's something in Elgar after listening to his music more carefully. Some other people won't admit Elgar's greatness no matter what.

And then, some of us find some patches of Elgar's oeuvre greater than other patches.  I don't think the symphonies are that great.  The concerti, and Falstaff:  these are great.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kuhlau on November 05, 2008, 08:52:25 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 05, 2008, 08:27:18 AMI have never undertood this obsession of formal composition. Isn't formal often boring? Elgar is not "formal" in sense of certain time period or style but is a (brilliant) combination of many styles of different times. Yes, Elgar was self-taught but that's not a weakness. He found his strenghts and created his own rich "multiformal" style.

I meant 'formal' as in according with established forms, conventions and requirements. Many other great composers - greater than Elgar, certainly - received formal compositional training, and I hardly think we can say that much of the writing of Boccherini, Beethoven, Brahms or Britten (to select a few composers beginning with 'B') is 'often boring'.

As to the concept of Elgar's music as 'multiformal', I'm afraid I don't follow you. You'll need to explain in more detail.

FK
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on November 05, 2008, 08:56:56 AM
Quote from: Kuhlau on November 05, 2008, 08:52:25 AM
I meant 'formal' as in according with established forms, conventions and requirements.

And — not to get too repetitive — I find Elgar's concerti (& Falstaff) examples of a fine artist creatively re-thinking traditional form, genre and conventions, in ways I find disappointingly absent from the symphonies.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Wanderer on November 05, 2008, 11:01:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 05, 2008, 08:39:14 AM
I don't think the symphonies are that great.

Karl, I was always puzzled by the fact that although I never really cared for the Second Symphony, I nevertheless find the First to be among the most convincing utterances of the genre. So, I agree with you - literally -  half-heartedly!  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on November 05, 2008, 11:07:20 AM
Cool. Not cool.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Wanderer on November 05, 2008, 11:33:00 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 05, 2008, 11:07:20 AM
Cool. Not cool.

Which one loves the First, now?  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kuhlau on November 05, 2008, 01:10:24 PM
Talk of Elgar's symphonies has me listening again to No. 1 - arguably the finest of his three.

The recording I've selected from the four or five in my collection is this one:

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/18/480418.jpg)

Elder and the Halle Orchestra (an earlier line-up of which give this work its premiere) seem to me to be right on the money with this symphony. All of the ... shall we say 'complexity'? ... of this work is clearly articulated in very good sound; much better, at least, than the Naxos recording with the BBC Philharmonic Orchestra under the baton of George Hurst. This is a thoughtful rendition, intelligently shaped and concerned with ensuring that soloists, where they appear, get the attention they deserve. Certainly, it has more colour than most of the other versions I've heard. And I agree with Wanderer that this is, indeed, a convincing utterance.

FK
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on November 05, 2008, 01:33:34 PM

     Falstaff is an astonishing work.

     I didn't warm to the 2nd symphony right away. It took a trip to England in the early '90s, after which I listened to the symphony and everything just clicked. It was a typical example of musical meaning arriving by a circuitous route.

     The comparison of Elgar and Brahms is a natural one, especially since Symphony No. 2 seems to have some relation to Brahms 3 (in my mind, anyway). He's really closer to Strauss and Mahler, though. Falstaff is certainly quite Straussian.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kuhlau on November 05, 2008, 01:46:17 PM
Quote from: drogulus on November 05, 2008, 01:33:34 PMThe comparison of Elgar and Brahms is a natural one, especially since Symphony No. 2 seems to have some relation to Brahms 3 (in my mind, anyway).

Really? That's some mind you have there. ;D

I hear these two symphonies as differently as a wind chime and an obnoxiously loud car. One puts me at my ease, the other grates on me. I'm too charitable to say which does which. ;)

FK
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on November 05, 2008, 03:32:01 PM
Kuhlau, I think there is something grating about the 2nd symphony. In fact I've only found one version that I can really totally endorse. Neither the Barbirolli nor the Slatkin are convincing, and in fact I don't even want to hear them. Perhaps this symphony needs nothing less than a perfect interpretation. If so the Handley/LPO is just that:

     [mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/2/1559968/1%20Allegro%20vivace%20e%20nobilmente.mp3[/mp3]

     Someone put this symphony on their 100 best list. If I made a list this one would be on it, and so would the Rachmaninov 2nd, so I should make a list of Most Disparaged Great Symphonies. Then everyone can fire away. :) (lime green is the color of Grateness :P)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on November 05, 2008, 03:45:41 PM
Quote from: drogulus on November 05, 2008, 01:33:34 PM
     Falstaff is an astonishing work.

Aye, it is.  I thought the Naxos recording a dud.  At least, from that recording, I got a lackluster impression of the piece, which I was nonetheless sure was misleading.  Here again, Elder and the Hallé have saved the day . . . .

Quote from: Ernie
     I didn't warm to the 2nd symphony right away. It took a trip to England in the early '90s, after which I listened to the symphony and everything just clicked. It was a typical example of musical meaning arriving by a circuitous route.

Always glad to hear such stories.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kuhlau on November 05, 2008, 03:51:46 PM
Prompted (and a bit puzzled) by drogulus' interesting association of the Brahms Third Symphony and the Elgar Second, I've spent this evening listening again to both. What I think threw me about his remark was that he prefaced it by suggesting a natural comparison between the two composers. I've always heard them as quite distinct, so my fresh listening has been an interesting exercise.

While the Brahms Third Symphony seems perfectly balanced, beautifully proportioned (almost classically so) and brimming with memorable musical ideas, the Elgar Second teems with competitive writing for different sections in its first movement, smacks of imperialist pomp (again, in the first movement), and seems to drift - nay, meander - as though directionless for much of its 56 or so minutes. The larghetto second movement of the Elgar is quite something, but it pales fast when set beside the stunning third movement of the Brahms. At the last, I had to ask myself, 'Which symphony lingers longer in the memory?' Needless to say, the Elgar didn't win that race.

But hey, at least some people love the Elgar Second in its entirety. I'm sure a musicologist could point out lots of reasons why this work deserves our attention. However, I want it to reach me emotionally before I approach it intellectually. In which case, bring on the analysis of the Brahms ...

FK
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on November 05, 2008, 04:01:51 PM
     Karl, I have a Naxos recording of The Dream of Gerontius that would induce narcolepsy in 60 sec. Then I got the Barbirolli with Lewis and Baker and Elgar suddenly became a great composer!!  ;D

     Kuhlau, I guess Elgar will have to be put in the "imperialist pomp" subdivision of great music, complete with warning label. Sometimes even I shrink from the "elegy for the vanishing good old days" element, but I also recognize that part of the charge against Elgar here is how well he evokes these feelings. That's part of the indictment that doesn't get expressed often enough, I think. Elgar make people feel things they would rather not. Usually that's to a composer's credit, but in this case it works against him.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Martin Lind on November 05, 2008, 04:02:48 PM
Well strangely me and Fastaff aren't yet friends. But this may change. I have Naxos, but Barbirolli is still ahead.  As I have heard now Naxos should be bad.  I think Elgar is a difficult composer. The violin concerto is wonderful but a bit lengthy. But maybe this opinion will change. Wether Elgar is the greatest composer of all times or not istn't anything which I am really concerned about. He is one of the greatest which I love that's for sure.

The point is still that he is not an easy composer. He has his own style and methods. That's why he is interesting. And his symphonies are very interesting. It is the same thing like Bruckner. Bruckner is his own man and it lasts some time before you can really appreciate his symphonies. The same thing goes for Elgar.

I can't understand how one cannot love the 2nd symphony ( with Downes). The whole piece is very interesting, although the very beginning is less promising at first sight but there are moments of pure magic ( this wonderfull theme in the first set after the beginning and other things).

Today I listened to the Apostles which I of course new before. I admit sometimes he is a bit lengthy but there are wonderful moments. As a whole I like it but can't listen to it any time. And I would love to have the text.

I admit in Elgar there may be moments who are weaker. From this point of view there may be other composers, say Sibelius who appear "much more important". But the point is: Elgars music is often very noble and sometimes pure magic. The best Elgar is something beyond praise. This music is beautifull and noble and this noblesse you find rarely elsewhere and this is the point that Elgar is - at least from a certain point of view - a very great composer. But he may not be a perfect composer. I guess he is a composer with weaknesses and strengths. But the strengths are much more important than the weaknesses.

The point is: Elgar is sometimes very noble and then he is on the other hand much less so. You can disgust that or you can like it. I like it. That's simply Elgar. Brahms on the other hand could more distinguish "light wight stuff" or "serious music". So his best music has not only a nobility of content but also a nobility of style. Elgar on the other hand is more problematic but maybe also more colourfull. I like that. Though I cannot always listen to music of Edward Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kuhlau on November 05, 2008, 04:12:11 PM
That Elgar evokes uncomfortable feelings (particularly for the British) of a dark past chapter is actually to his credit, I'd say. Even history's less desirable periods need their soundtrack, and Elgar has provided perhaps the best one of all for the British Empire.

Martin, I listened to the Downes recording this evening, but it still doesn't hit home (and this wasn't my first hearing, either). Could it be that I need Elder and the Halle Orchestra to illuminate the Second Symphony for me, as they've previously done with the First?

FK
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on November 05, 2008, 05:01:17 PM


    Yes, I can imagine the day that even the British themselves will appreciate their semi-glorious past. :D :P $:) >:D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on November 05, 2008, 05:02:04 PM
Quote from: drogulus on November 05, 2008, 04:01:51 PM
     Karl, I have a Naxos recording of The Dream of Gerontius that would induce narcolepsy in 60 sec. Then I got the Barbirolli with Lewis and Baker and Elgar suddenly became a great composer!!  ;D

Oof, that sounds like another Naxos disc to actively avoid, Ernie;  that Barbirolli recording is superb.

Kuhlau:  There's rather a Brahms-ish but in the fourth movement of the Elgar First, don't you think?  Overall it's not a particularly Brahmsian work, but that one stretch . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Martin Lind on November 05, 2008, 05:18:54 PM
Quote from: Kuhlau on November 05, 2008, 04:12:11 PM
That Elgar evokes uncomfortable feelings (particularly for the British) of a dark past chapter is actually to his credit, I'd say. Even history's less desirable periods need their soundtrack, and Elgar has provided perhaps the best one of all for the British Empire.


Frankly I don't know enough about Elgar to judge that. He may have been a patriot, but all composers of that time were somehow patriots. Tschaikovski Overture 1816, Sibelius Finlandia, Bruckners Helgoland is a bizarre thing, Debussy ran out of the hall when Mahler was played ( "sound like Schubert") and so on and so on. Maybe even Brahms did things like that, I don't know. Wagners antisemitism weighs much more than the patriotism of Elgar who lived maybe in a surrounding where he had no choice not to be a patriot. Who in the whole Europe was not a patriot at that time? As it is known today appearently "all" people ran into WW1 with complete enthusiasm - nobody understands that today.

Of course when Elgar at the back of this box should be heard for "national rejoice" ( as I do know now from my Emibox) this must provoke uncomfortable feelings between British people who don't see the British empire as "land of hope and glory". The point is that maybe there are British people for whom the British empire never has ended and they are still very proud on this empire though it sadly ended. But this is not the fault of Elgar. And you shouldn't overlook the fact that Elgar was a Catholic in England. This is something too easily overlooked today. A minority in the United Kingdom. And Catholicism is also an Empire of some kind and I am sure that this empire was very important for Elgar though he was certainly not in a situation to emphasize that fact.  For me as a Catholic Elgars Catholicism is very important to understand the man. But maybe I should once read a good biography about Elgar, I know too little. Wagners antisemitism was a personal thing not to be forgiven, Elgar on the other hand maybe simply a child of his time, something you should not judge. How would we have acted in such a surrounding? And maybe a Catholic in England must especially emphasize the fact that he is a good patriot.

The most important point: Elgars music is so much more than just a "soundtrack for the British empire", really. And that's what ultimately counts.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kuhlau on November 06, 2008, 12:18:47 AM
Quote from: Martin Lind on November 05, 2008, 05:18:54 PMThe most important point: Elgars music is so much more than just a "soundtrack for the British empire", really. And that's what ultimately counts.

Rest assured, Martin, that I'm not suggesting everything from Elgar's pen constitutes such a soundtrack. Nonetheless, a good deal of his more popular works do have a seam of pomp running through them.

FK
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kuhlau on November 06, 2008, 12:20:42 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 05, 2008, 05:02:04 PMKuhlau:  There's rather a Brahms-ish but in the fourth movement of the Elgar First, don't you think?  Overall it's not a particularly Brahmsian work, but that one stretch . . .

Granted, there's more than a passing similarity. Unintentional? Probably not. Elgar was an admirer of the Germanic school, as I understand things.

FK
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 06, 2008, 01:11:18 AM
Quote from: Martin Lind on November 05, 2008, 05:18:54 PM
Frankly I don't know enough about Elgar to judge that. He may have been a patriot, but all composers of that time were somehow patriots. Tschaikovski Overture 1816, Sibelius Finlandia, Bruckners Helgoland is a bizarre thing, Debussy ran out of the hall when Mahler was played ( "sound like Schubert") and so on and so on. Maybe even Brahms did things like that, I don't know.

I know - he did. The 'Triumphlied' (Song of Triumph) in celebration of the German victory over the French in 1871. It seems to one his best choral pieces.

http://www.musicwithease.com/brahms-triumphlied.html
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kuhlau on November 06, 2008, 01:34:26 AM
Thanks for the site link, Jezetha. A handy resource. :)

FK
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Grazioso on November 06, 2008, 04:17:04 AM
As something of an Anglophile, with a fascination for the Victorian and Edwardian eras, those supposedly negative things which Elgar's music evokes--or even celebrates--are actually draws for me :) God save the Queen!  ;D

I just started digging deeper into Elgar's music recently after a very superficial acquaintance going back some years, and my more immediate impressions are not those of dated jingoism, but rather of a) how the works do indeed seem to meander (and I emphasize "seem" since I haven't yet studied them in depth) and b) how thrusting, red-blooded, and muscular his work can sound. The massive, surging sounds of his orchestra are quite striking, with all the low brass, rumbling percussion, and massed strings.

Whatever Elgar's relative worth might be, I'll say that I've been having fun exploring his oeuvre.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kuhlau on November 06, 2008, 04:24:09 AM
The 'meandering' of Elgar puts me in mind of a similar penchant exhibited by Delius - the latter composer perhaps more prone to go a-wandering in his compositions. Lovers of Delius tell me I'm missing something significant. Maybe if I could get past the apparent waywardness of his music I'd appreciate it more. Vaulting the same hurdle in Elgar's music might also eliminate my partial resistence to some of his claimed charms.

FK
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Martin Lind on November 06, 2008, 07:52:27 AM
From Wikipedia:

QuoteHe himself grew to hate his 'Pomp and Circumstance' March No.1 with its popular tune (identified as 'Land of Hope and Glory' when the words were later added), which he felt had been made into a jingoistic song, not in keeping with the tragic loss of life in the war[citation needed]. This was captured in the film Elgar by Ken Russell.

Has anybody seen the film? Or does he know a good book about Elgar? I guess I will not find a German one in the library but there must be English ones.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on November 06, 2008, 08:11:40 AM
Quote from: Martin Lind on November 06, 2008, 07:52:27 AM
From Wikipedia:

Well might it say "[citation needed]"; a set of marches (marches, for crumbs' sake!), bearing the title Pomp and Circumstance, and written in the first decade of the 20th century, is not a protest against the tragedy of war.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 06, 2008, 10:39:16 AM
To my understanding Elgar was very much anti-war. He was very sad about the war against Germany because he was a very good friend of Richard Strauss.

Ken Russell's Elgar is a mediocre TV movie of the composer. I think it gives a good picture of Elgar as a person, certainly much better than most people have of him. The DVD has very nice extra material.

I have Percy Young's Elgar O.M. book. It's old but informative.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on November 06, 2008, 10:49:54 AM


      I have to admit that I love The Music Makers, which is the greatest hits medley, especially with Janet Baker singing. He weaves together themes from the Violin Concerto, both symphonies, The Dream of Gerontius, and the Enigma Variations. It's really beautifully done.   

Quote from: Martin Lind on November 06, 2008, 07:52:27 AM


Has anybody seen the film? Or does he know a good book about Elgar? I guess I will not find a German one in the library but there must be English ones.

     I haven't seen the film. For books I'd look for the Michael Kennedy bio:

     (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HHGQ296FL._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU02_AA240_SH20_.jpg)

     I haven't read the Diana McVeagh book:

     (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2007/July07/Elgar_Mcveagh.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on November 06, 2008, 10:57:40 AM
Quote from: drogulus on November 06, 2008, 10:49:54 AM
      I have to admit that I love The Music Makers, which is the greatest hits medley, especially with Janet Baker singing. He weaves together themes from the Violin Concerto, both symphonies, The Dream of Gerontius, and the Enigma Variations. It's really beautifully done.

I like it fine, too!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on November 06, 2008, 11:29:06 AM
I am surprised. Even though I really do like Elgar a lot, I think that piece is a right rag-bag. It seems to have little shape, a sort of suite of greatest hits.

I note the Ken Russell film gets short shrift. Pretty much regarded as a masterpiece of its kind elsewhere.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on November 06, 2008, 01:46:52 PM
Quote from: knight on November 06, 2008, 11:29:06 AM
I am surprised. Even though I really do like Elgar a lot, I think that piece is a right rag-bag. It seems to have little shape, a sort of suite of greatest hits.

Mike

     I'm not making any claims for TMM. Call it kitsch if you want, and it's certainly lesser Elgar. I like it anyway, because I have bad taste. 8)

     
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on November 06, 2008, 04:16:43 PM
Oh, sure, Ernie: throw me under the bus!  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Guido on November 06, 2008, 04:48:06 PM
Quote from: drogulus on November 06, 2008, 01:46:52 PM
     I'm not making any claims for TMM. Call it kitsch if you want, and it's certainly lesser Elgar. I like it anyway, because I have bad taste. 8)     

I just found it horrendously dull and pointless - every piece he uses is made worse by the new arrangement... that said, I have only heard it live once, in King's college chapel. Maybe I should give it another listen when my 30 CD boxed set arrives! Is that much Elgar healthy for one person?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 06, 2008, 11:59:40 PM
I have only 2 performances of The Music Makers, Op. 69

Felicity Palmer / London Symphony Orchestra + Chorus / Richard Hickox / EMI

Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra / Simon Wright / Naxos


I prever the former but it's the first performance I heard of this work so maybe that's why.

The work itself isn't Elgar's best but I find it awesome nevertheless. It's pure Elgar magic!  0:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on November 07, 2008, 03:25:33 AM
Fair to call it a comparatively modest work . . . sort of a salon-choral work, maybe.  I enjoy it as a sort of 'autobiographical quodlibet'.  It's no Shostakovich Fifteenth, but, hey . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hector on November 07, 2008, 05:36:12 AM
Quote from: knight on November 06, 2008, 11:29:06 AM
I am surprised. Even though I really do like Elgar a lot, I think that piece is a right rag-bag. It seems to have little shape, a sort of suite of greatest hits.

I note the Ken Russell film gets short shrift. Pretty much regarded as a masterpiece of its kind elsewhere.

Mike

Agreed, but isn't it fun spotting where the quote is from?

There is always someone, somewhere ready and not-so-able to rubbish dear old Ken Russell but that drama-doc led to a revival of interest in the composer that prompted EMI to give us all those Barbirolli recordings!

His film was one of the first of its kind.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Martin Lind on November 08, 2008, 09:03:54 PM
As I now possess the Elgar box I would love to have some talk about the works included in this box.

For example I listened to Caractacus ( on two CDs) and I was not very much impressed, I didn't like that very much. I listened then to The Banner of St George and choral works and I found these better although not overwhelmed. A fourth CD with Orchestral Works and Marches was partly fine but sometimes a bit bombastic.

So lets talk about Elgar and his work, now I have this box and listen to it but always appreciate it, if one can talk about music and there are certainly some Elgarians who could guide me through this big box.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 09, 2008, 12:49:44 AM
Quote from: Martin Lind on November 08, 2008, 09:03:54 PM
For example I listened to Caractacus ( on two CDs) and I was not very much impressed, I didn't like that very much.

Caractacus isn't one of Elgar's best works but I still enjoy it very much. I have Hickox on Chandos. Can you tell what didn't you like about it?

Quote from: Martin Lind on November 08, 2008, 09:03:54 PMI listened then to The Banner of St George and choral works and I found these better although not overwhelmed.

Again, these are not the greatest Elgar works. For me it's rare not to be overwhelmed by Elgar. Perhaps you are expecting too much? Music gives more when you relax and just let it reveal itself.

Quote from: Martin Lind on November 08, 2008, 09:03:54 PMA fourth CD with Orchestral Works and Marches was partly fine but sometimes a bit bombastic.

Elgar's style is bombastic (he's not Debussy!  ;D ) and marches are bombastic by nature so you should expect Elgar's marches be bombastic. To be honest, marches are among the least interesting works of Elgar. I don't listen to them that often. If I want to hear bombastic march music, Elgar is the man.  0:)

Quote from: Martin Lind on November 08, 2008, 09:03:54 PMSo lets talk about Elgar and his work, now I have this box and listen to it but always appreciate it, if one can talk about music and there are certainly some Elgarians who could guide me through this big box.

I don't know if I can guide you through that big box. I have about half of it as separate releases. I recommend this: Concentrate on one disc/work at the time and listen to it several times. Elgar's music tend to reveal itself better that way. Don't expect to be blown away. Elgar's music touches us in subtle and profound ways. I have always felt that Elgar's art is more than just music. It's some kind of "awareness" or "spirit" and the music is how it sounds. What you hear is the entrance to this mental state. Trust Elgar as a composer. Be a humble listener and you will be blown away. You should spend months going through the box or you are too fast. Patience!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on November 09, 2008, 04:14:18 AM
Martin, have you already listened to the lovely Sospiri?

What's the solution of the Dorabella Cipher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorabella_Cipher) btw? :D

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/1/10/Dorabella_Chiffre.gif)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on November 09, 2008, 04:43:48 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 06, 2008, 04:16:43 PM
Oh, sure, Ernie: throw me under the bus!  8)

     No, Karl, you like it because you have good taste.  ::)

     Caractacus is undone by the usual Elgar problems, an inadequate text with a downright embarrassing (patriotic bluster) ending which I understand was cut from some performances.

     (http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7421/clipboard01rh8.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 09, 2008, 05:06:49 AM
I'll stick my neck out and say - I love Elgar's Second. The First is wonderful, but the Second is deeper. I think it's a rather tragic work. In the first movement (Allegro vivace e nobilmente) I don't hear imperialist, Edwardian pomp at all, but anxiety and nervousness. The motto of the work is Shelley's line 'Rarely comest thou, spirit of Delight', and you (I) can hear the strenuous striving for it - or a strenuous trying to hold on to it - all through the first movement. The second movement, Larghetto, is melancholy and yearning, whereas the Rondo: Presto third movement seems to unleash, in the Trio, all the pent-up anger and frustration. In the final movement, Moderato and maestoso, Elgar seems to attain some sort of serenity or resignation, with the opening gesture of the work dissolving before our ears. It is here where Elgar's Second indeed resembles Brahms's Third, where the same thing occurs in its final bars.

In defense of Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance marches: it is wrong to project our own disillusioned experiences and assumptions into the past. Elgar wrote most of his marches before WWI. They are ceremonial, patriotic works like many many other composers in those days wrote (e.g. Sousa, Johann Strauss, Wagner...) Elgar was shocked and disgusted by the First World War. His marches are not celebrations of carnage.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on November 09, 2008, 07:13:28 AM
Seems like I really have to listen to his Symphonies soon. :)

Quote from: Jezetha on November 09, 2008, 05:06:49 AMIn defense of Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance marches: it is wrong to project our own disillusioned experiences and assumptions into the past. Elgar wrote most of his marches before WWI. They are ceremonial, patriotic works like many many other composers in those days wrote (e.g. Sousa, Johann Strauss, Wagner...) Elgar was shocked and disgusted by the First World War. His marches are not celebrations of carnage.
I couldn't care less, for the judgement about his music it is irrelevant if he was shocked by war or not. Even if he was [insert evil/politically incorrect attributes here]. There's his music, me, and my decision, if it could bring joy to my life. As easy as that. Period. The decision has been made: It does.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on November 09, 2008, 07:48:05 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on November 09, 2008, 05:06:49 AM
I'll stick my neck out and say - I love Elgar's Second. The First is wonderful, but the Second is deeper. I think it's a rather tragic work. In the first movement (Allegro vivace e nobilmente) I don't hear imperialist, Edwardian pomp at all, but anxiety and nervousness. The motto of the work is Shelley's line 'Rarely comest thou, spirit of Delight', and you (I) can hear the strenuous striving for it - or a strenuous trying to hold on to it - all through the first movement. The second movement, Larghetto, is melancholy and yearning, whereas the Rondo: Presto third movement seems to unleash, in the Trio, all the pent-up anger and frustration. In the final movement, Moderato and maestoso, Elgar seems to attain some sort of serenity or resignation, with the opening gesture of the work dissolving before our ears. It is here where Elgar's Second indeed resembles Brahms's Third, where the same thing occurs in its final bars.



    There are other resemblances, such as the theme at the start of the 4th movement, as well as a slight resemblance at the start of the first movement.

    The inner movements of the Elgar 2nd are remarkable. You need to listen to them a few times to absorb all they have to offer. I get the idea that the length of this symphony combined with a certain impatience with Elgar (you think you know what he's about) causes people to skate over some of the subtleties. This could be true of any composer but particularly so in a long work like this.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 09, 2008, 07:53:01 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on November 09, 2008, 07:13:28 AM
I couldn't care less, for the judgement about his music it is irrelevant if he was shocked by war or not. Even if he was [insert evil/politically incorrect attributes here]. There's his music, me, and my decision, if it could bring joy to my life. As easy as that. Period. The decision has been made: It does.

I'm glad to hear it. But the question of art and morality is interesting. And this is what I tried to address.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Martin Lind on November 09, 2008, 10:10:28 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 09, 2008, 12:49:44 AM

I don't know if I can guide you through that big box. I have about half of it as separate releases. I recommend this: Concentrate on one disc/work at the time and listen to it several times. Elgar's music tend to reveal itself better that way. Don't expect to be blown away. Elgar's music touches us in subtle and profound ways. I have always felt that Elgar's art is more than just music. It's some kind of "awareness" or "spirit" and the music is how it sounds. What you hear is the entrance to this mental state. Trust Elgar as a composer. Be a humble listener and you will be blown away. You should spend months going through the box or you are too fast. Patience!


Thank you for your advice. I will be patient, I confess. Still I say that there were works of Elgar which immidiatly or nearly imidiately stunned me. Some of these new works not. But I will be patient.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 09, 2008, 10:41:21 AM
Quote from: drogulus on November 09, 2008, 07:48:05 AM
 There are other resemblances, such as the theme at the start of the 4th movement, as well as a slight resemblance at the start of the first movement.

You're absolutely right.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on November 09, 2008, 10:38:19 PM
Quote from: Hector on November 07, 2008, 05:36:12 AM
Agreed, but isn't it fun spotting where the quote is from?

There is always someone, somewhere ready and not-so-able to rubbish dear old Ken Russell but that drama-doc led to a revival of interest in the composer that prompted EMI to give us all those Barbirolli recordings!

His film was one of the first of its kind.

Yes, and yes. I agree all the way. Russell caught the beauty of Elgar's work in visual terms. The slow galloping horses may seem a cliche now; but it was fresh then and clearly struck a chord with directors as they used it to death subsequently.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Wanderer on November 09, 2008, 11:00:20 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on November 09, 2008, 05:06:49 AM
I'll stick my neck out and say - I love Elgar's Second. The First is wonderful, but the Second is deeper. I think it's a rather tragic work. In the first movement (Allegro vivace e nobilmente) I don't hear imperialist, Edwardian pomp at all, but anxiety and nervousness. The motto of the work is Shelley's line 'Rarely comest thou, spirit of Delight', and you (I) can hear the strenuous striving for it - or a strenuous trying to hold on to it - all through the first movement. The second movement, Larghetto, is melancholy and yearning, whereas the Rondo: Presto third movement seems to unleash, in the Trio, all the pent-up anger and frustration. In the final movement, Moderato and maestoso, Elgar seems to attain some sort of serenity or resignation, with the opening gesture of the work dissolving before our ears. It is here where Elgar's Second indeed resembles Brahms's Third, where the same thing occurs in its final bars.

Do you have a favourite recording, Johan? I'm willing to give this work lots of chances (not that I don't like it feebly, mind).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 09, 2008, 11:19:06 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on November 09, 2008, 11:00:20 PM
Do you have a favourite recording, Johan? I'm willing to give this work lots of chances (not that I don't like it feebly, mind).

Sir Edward Downes with the BBC Philharmonic on Naxos is excellent, Tasos. You can't go wrong with Boult and the LPO either (on EMI; there is another on Lyrita which I still have to listen to).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Wanderer on November 09, 2008, 11:37:45 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on November 09, 2008, 11:19:06 PM
Sir Edward Downes with the BBC Philharmonic on Naxos is excellent, Tasos. You can't go wrong with Boult and the LPO either (on EMI; there is another on Lyrita which I still have to listen to).

You know, Downes was the one I had in mind when asking you. I'll try that. I was also thinking about Thomson/LPO on Chandos and Sinopoli/Philharmonia on DG (they both have conducted excellent Firsts). And Boult's always recommendable.

PS. Although in a piano mood lately, I might just listen to the Barbirolli later today.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 09, 2008, 11:39:51 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on November 09, 2008, 11:37:45 PM
You know, Downes was the one I had in mind when asking you. I'll try that. I was also thinking about Thomson/LPO on Chandos and Sinopoli/Philharmonia on DG (they both have conducted excellent Firsts). And Boult's always recommendable.

PS. Although in a piano mood lately, I might just listen to the Barbirolli later today.

I am listening to Downes as we speak. It's good - good sound, tempi very natural, the orchestral playing terrific.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on November 10, 2008, 05:42:32 AM
My local library has Elgar Sym#1 with Colin Davis/Staatskapelle Dresden. Should I go and get it?

(http://www.semperopershop.de/out/oxbaseshop/html/0/dyn_images/1/303007_d1_p1.png)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kuhlau on November 10, 2008, 06:23:12 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on November 10, 2008, 05:42:32 AM
My local library has Elgar Sym#1 with Colin Davis/Staatskapelle Dresden. Should I go and get it?

(http://www.semperopershop.de/out/oxbaseshop/html/0/dyn_images/1/303007_d1_p1.png)

Yes. I have that recording and it's a very spirited live performance. ;)

FK
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 10, 2008, 07:24:35 AM
Quote from: Kuhlau on November 10, 2008, 06:23:12 AM
Yes. I have that recording and it's a very spirited live performance. ;)

FK

Yes yes!! Terrific performance!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Guido on November 23, 2008, 02:17:48 PM
Have just started working through the 30CD EMI box - a daunting but enjoyable task. The first thing I have listened to is the beautiful string quartet, which I am surprised that I have never heard before. Why is this not played more often? It's not as if Elgar is particularly neglected in general here in lil' ol' England.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kullervo on January 09, 2009, 05:13:08 PM
Found this interesting quote on Elgar, from a surprising source:

Also this year you talked of Elgar, and the newspapers said that he was ill.

If you see him will you present my constant pleasure in his music, whether human rendered or from my box? Nobody who makes sounds gets so inside my defences as he does, with his 2nd Symphony and Violin Concerto. Say that if the 3rd Symphony has gone forward from those, it will be a thrill to ever so many of us. He was inclined to grumble that the rewards of making music were not big, in the bank-book sense; but by now he should be seeing that bank-books will not interest him much longer. I feel more and more, as I grow older, the inclination to throw everything away and live on air. We all allow ourselves to need too much.


—T.E. Lawrence to Mrs Charlotte Shaw, August 23, 1933
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on January 09, 2009, 08:06:37 PM
I feel more and more, as I grow older, the inclination to throw everything away and live on air. We all allow ourselves to need too much.

How lovely!  Thank you for this.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kullervo on January 10, 2009, 03:44:28 AM
Yes, that line struck a chord with me as well. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 11, 2009, 03:04:56 AM
Great quote from "Lawrence of Arabia" there, Corey. My belated thanks!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 02:07:37 PM
Quote from: Corey on January 10, 2009, 03:44:28 AM
Yes, that line struck a chord with me as well. 

You're far too young to feel that way, Corey! ...unless you have thoughts of taking holy orders  ;)

But a sincere thanks from this old fart for sharing that quote. It reminds me too what we lost when Elgar died. From what we know of it, his Third would have been a glorious coda to a great career.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kullervo on January 11, 2009, 03:46:48 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 02:07:37 PM
You're far too young to feel that way, Corey! ...unless you have thoughts of taking holy orders  ;)

But a sincere thanks from this old fart for sharing that quote. It reminds me too what we lost when Elgar died. From what we know of it, his Third would have been a glorious coda to a great career.

Sarge

Well, as I'm planning a big move later this year, and looking around at my things to decide what I should sell or give away, that epigram seemed particularly suited to my mindset at this moment. Our possessions really do weigh us down.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 03:51:13 PM
Quote from: Corey on January 11, 2009, 03:46:48 PM
Well, as I'm planning a big move later this year, and looking around at my things to decide what I should sell or give away, that epigram seemed particularly suited to my mindset at this moment. Our possessions really do weigh us down.


Understood. In my army career I moved eleven times. Things had to be discarded. Still, it was never easy.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kuhlau on January 12, 2009, 12:58:16 AM
Quote from: Corey on January 11, 2009, 03:46:48 PM
Our possessions really do weigh us down.

Wasn't it Confucius who said, 'The bird with golden wings cannot fly'?

FK
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Martin Lind on January 22, 2009, 07:12:30 AM
Listened alot to Lux Christ during the last time. An early work before the "big leap" of the Enigma variations. I listened to it 4 or 5 times. I can't make up my mind exactly. There are splendid things in this score certainly. The beginning is absolutely marvelous, the whole "meditation" and this great idea at the end of it. "Dream of Gerontius" is certainly more perfect - but as a whole Lux Christi is certainly not bad, even if some things may be a bit lengthy. But it is certainly a work I like - I was not at all so enthusiastic for Cataractus which I didn't like at all although it is also an early work.

Such a pity that I still don't have the texts.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 22, 2009, 11:19:00 AM
Quote from: Martin Lind on January 22, 2009, 07:12:30 AM
Listened alot to Lux Christ during the last time. An early work before the "big leap" of the Enigma variations. I listened to it 4 or 5 times. I can't make up my mind exactly. There are splendid things in this score certainly. The beginning is absolutely marvelous, the whole "meditation" and this great idea at the end of it. "Dream of Gerontius" is certainly more perfect - but as a whole Lux Christi is certainly not bad, even if some things may be a bit lengthy. But it is certainly a work I like - I was not at all so enthusiastic for Cataractus which I didn't like at all although it is also an early work.

Such a pity that I still don't have the texts.

Sorry to hear you don't like Caractacus Martin.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Martin Lind on January 22, 2009, 12:09:28 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 22, 2009, 11:19:00 AM
Sorry to hear you don't like Caractacus Martin.

This may change. You should be glad that I liked Lux Christi, which is an early less well known work. This may change my attitude to Caractacus. I have listened to Caractacus only one time. To Lux Christi I listened now several times. Lux Christi was more intriguing first of all. The ending of the meditation in Lux Christi is magical, but the whole piece is. I am still not completely convinced by Lux Christi, but even this may change. So I will one time again listen to Caractacus.

The point is you cannot apreciate these scores so easy. There are less "big tunes" but more "magical moments". This is my impression. Do you think this could be a problem in these scores? But I still miss the texts, it is really stupid that I can't get the texts.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 23, 2009, 07:58:35 AM
Quote from: Martin Lind on January 22, 2009, 12:09:28 PM
This may change. You should be glad that I liked Lux Christi, which is an early less well known work. This may change my attitude to Caractacus. I have listened to Caractacus only one time. To Lux Christi I listened now several times. Lux Christi was more intriguing first of all. The ending of the meditation in Lux Christi is magical, but the whole piece is. I am still not completely convinced by Lux Christi, but even this may change. So I will one time again listen to Caractacus.

The point is you cannot apreciate these scores so easy. There are less "big tunes" but more "magical moments". This is my impression. Do you think this could be a problem in these scores? But I still miss the texts, it is really stupid that I can't get the texts.

Of course I'm happy you like The Light of Life, Op. 29.  ;)

Many seems to complain that Elgar's oratorios are boring and that nothing happens to them. Personally I find them very rich but the the details are subtle. One has to "get lost" inside the textures of the music and notice all the small things, not only notes but timbral effects too. The music is spiritual and needs the "co-operation" of the listener. The result is rewarding. Good luck with Caractacus!



Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on January 25, 2009, 09:30:15 AM

     This is the first I've heard mention of Lux Christi. Now I'm intrigued.

     Caractacus has some problems for me which mostly can be reduced to the expression corny, and the word jingo also occurs. I'm usually fairly tolerant of the bluster of bygone days (do we really have to relitigate the Boer War?). Still, this piece does produce a cringe now and then. Perhaps even more damaging is all the "all hail"-ing that goes on. Why can't Elgar set music to a worthy text? This is a composer who is on the doorstep of equality with Mahler and Strauss but his texts are positively childish by comparison.* I say this as an unabashed Elgar lover. Outside of the notes themselves he seems to have been a pretty oblivious fellow.


     * Or, if you like, by comparison with Vaughan Williams. And don't even think of comparing Elgar with Finzi!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 25, 2009, 10:57:01 AM
Quote from: drogulus on January 25, 2009, 09:30:15 AM
Why can't Elgar set music to a worthy text?

In my opinion Elgar is about setting texts to worthy music rather than the other way around. I don't care about the text. I care about the music. I don't even know what is worthy text and what is not. Literature is not my thing, "vibrational fields" are.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on January 25, 2009, 10:43:54 PM
There is an enormous disparity here between say Britten and Elgar. The younger composer had marvelous taste in what he set and clearly he was often inspired by the words to write his music. With Elgar it is hit and miss, with a lot of poor texts. He seemed to make a decision to write and then texts were constructed, without all the care that such as Strauss would lavish on getting the words he really wanted. Elgar tended to pretty well take what he got. His other way of writing vocal music was to use an existing text; Sea Pictures, not good poetry, but written partly for sentimental reasons. The music means the work is popular, but he was no word setter on a par with the likes of Britten.

I think that because he had a relatively undistinguished taste in poetry, he hobbled pieces such as The Kingdom and Caractacus. The libretti are rather like the lesser Mendelssohn oratorios such as St Paul which follow in the line of Handel libretti; and the shape of these libretti to an extent shape the music. Had he a partnership with an English Hofmannsthal, those Elgar pieces might have shone more brightly. Some hate the libretto for Gerontius; but that free form text without the echoes of Handel Orotario, without lots of repitition, brought out the symphonic inspiration that provided a much more interesting and rich work. I think the ABA aria and the chorus/aria/chorus shapes were a constraint on his imagination.

Indeed, in this sense of an ear for poetry he was penny plain, accepting the obvious and to an extent the popular.There are the occasional gems, but also a lot of tosh to endure for the sake of the music. But the great pieces really are great.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Kuhlau on January 26, 2009, 12:41:42 AM
Very well put, Mike.

Certainly, Elgar was no Britten (or Finzi) when it came to word setting. He was more of a big tunes man, and he wrote some stirring music, indeed. A work like Sea Pictures seems to succeed almost in spite of itself - largely because the music is better than the words.

Where I think Elgar was stronger was in his settings of part-songs. The two Op. 71 songs are particularly deftly handled. I'd have liked to have heard more of this kind of smaller-scale word setting from Elgar.

FK
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on January 29, 2009, 07:24:11 PM
Once again this forum has led me to music I might otherwise have missed! After reading the last few entries, I listened to The Music Makers for the first time (cond. Andrew Davis, an excellent performance/recording). I think the only previous Elgar choral work I'd heard was "All the young princesses", which sounds about as you might expect. Needless to say (but I'll say it anyway), I was very impressed by TMM. Its references to the orchestral works helped of course. So I quickly went out and picked up the Choral Collection on EMI, and now I think I will have to get the Collector's Edition as well. If only the Hickox discs were a little less expensive - it would be nice to hear these works in modern sound.

Yes, Elgar's librettos seem pretty awful. I wonder if some irreverent person has tried resetting Music Makers with words from the Wunderhorn, or some other more worthy text? ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: bhodges on January 30, 2009, 08:44:57 AM
Speaking of Sea Pictures, which I've never heard live, Levine and the MET Orchestra are doing it in December with mezzo Stephanie Blythe, coupled with Mahler's Fifth Symphony.  Details here (http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_10218.html?selecteddate=12202009).

--Bruce
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Martin Lind on January 31, 2009, 01:39:38 AM
I listened now for the 7th or 8th time to Lux Christi and this time I am more convinced than ever that this is a genuine masterpiece. The score is full of marvelous moments. I am glad that I have bought this box:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2007/Oct07/Elgar_Collectors_5036032.jpg)

It is a genuine bargain. I have of course only heard a smaller part of this box. I don't know wether all this music is so great. But maybe? I liked Lux Christi from the first beginning, but beginning with Lux Christi I was often bored, but listening to it now several times I am really convinced by this music. It obviously lasts some time to really grasp its greatness. And I am convinced that it may be a good thing to listen to Elgar more often!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jlaurson on February 24, 2009, 04:25:25 PM
Elgar 75th Death Anniversary Tribute on WETA.

Edward Elgar (1857 – 23 February 1934)


"Library Building" posts are reviews of recordings I find to be essential to every good collection of classical music - recordings of interpretations that are the touchstone for their repertoire.


Looking at Edward Elgar 75 years after he died (today, on February 23rd), he looks to be the quintessential English gentleman composer. From his handlebar mustache to his glee club membership to his avid bike-riding to his compositions that seem to presage that particular type of British "pastoral" music, he has become the mold for a stereotype. There is no composer native to England that is more famous or more often performed.

There can't be many English speaking classical music lovers who don't know at least his Pomp & Circumstance march and the Enigma Variations. His Cello Concerto has received mythical status through the famous EMI recording of Jacqueline du Pré and the LSO under John Barbirolli. His Third Symphony is—with Mahler's Tenth, Mozart's Requiem, Berg's Lulu, and Puccini's Turandot—one of the famous unfinished works that has been 'completed' posthumously.

Information about Elgar is easily found, so in acknowledgment of his 75th death anniversary, I restrict myself to listing recordings of some of his works—famous and obscure—that I think are particularly notable.

(continues here: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=503 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=503))

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Guido on September 15, 2009, 02:17:23 AM
http://www.wrightmusic.org.uk/elgar.html

Another astonishing piece of writing by this guy (see Britten thread). What on earth could drive him to write such a rambling, hateful, and poorly thought through piece?

Here's his "damning" criticism of the cello concerto:

EDIT: I've just seen his ridiculous warning at the bottom of the page about not being able to quote any part of his work - I don't want to get GMG in trouble though, so just check it out - it's about 3/4 of the way down.

What perspicacious, lucid and penetrating musical analysis!! Mental.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidW on September 15, 2009, 04:21:50 AM
He certainly loves his navy blue knickers! ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on September 15, 2009, 05:58:17 AM
I believe this chap had to be politely told to stop contributing to MusicWeb due to his poisoned pen. Quite the nutter, indeed.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on September 25, 2009, 02:21:10 PM

     This fellow is impressed by the harsh judgment of Elgar's rivals. Is this more important than the influence he had on music and British composers? Who cares what Walton said in 1960? Hadn't he already demonstrated what he owed to Elgar? Bax said if only Elgar had been professionally trained....if only what? He would be a greater artist? Perhaps, but training doesn't impart talent. The success of Elgar shows that someone with great gifts can overcome deficiencies in training.

     You can't "unmask" an artist as an artist. The art is the effect it produces, and any tricks used to achieve this are part of the art. The amateur and poorly trained who overcome their disadvantages are not despised for this. How could they be? Elgar played the leading role in founding a national musical tradition in a country that hadn't had a great native-born composer in centuries. What could Stanford or Parry say that could change that?

     I found this about a comparison that Barbirolli made between Elgar and Bruckner:

     Indeed he once said of Bruckner's Seventh "I find a great affinity with Elgar: not in actual music, of course, but in loftiness of ideals and purpose, richness of melodic line and harmony, and even an affinity of defects." This last comment is particularly fascinating and he went on to elaborate: "The over development, sometimes to the point of padding, the sequences, etc., but all very loveable and to me easily tolerated and forgiven in the greatness of it all."


     That's an opinion, too, so take it for what it's worth. I find the opinions of those who love music valuable, and sometimes critical opinions as well when they demonstrate some understanding.
     
   
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on September 25, 2009, 05:03:08 PM
Quote from: drogulus on September 25, 2009, 02:21:10 PM
Bax said if only Elgar had been professionally trained....if only what?

That is rich coming from him! :D They both have their structural difficulties.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidW on September 25, 2009, 05:48:37 PM
Quote from: Lethe on September 25, 2009, 05:03:08 PM
That is rich coming from him! :D They both have their structural difficulties.

I disagree, neither one has structural difficulties.  It's said alot, especially about Elgar, and I think I know where it comes from.  These neoromantic composers are seen as throwbacks, as a tonal refuge in the atonal storm.  Well, it takes one extra step to label them as easy listening which many people do.  But they're not, they wrote very complex music that would be assaulting to the ears of someone from the romantic era.  Elgar, Bax etc are not "easy listening" composers, and the only way for those that think so to resolve that cognitive dissonance of calling difficult music easy is to say that they must be poor orchestrators or simply deficient in composing in some way.

But the problem is not with the composers, it's with the audience.  If you accept the music for what it is then you can realize that these are not problematic composers, they simply write in a very unique style shared by only a few.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on September 25, 2009, 07:09:25 PM
I don't consider those traits to be faults, but I took the training comment to mean he felt Elgar's music could be tidied up to reach a higher level of wider access/appeal or something, when the same criticism could equally be leveled at his music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 26, 2009, 01:14:47 AM
Yes, Elgar wasn't professionally trained but that doesn't mean he was under-trained. I think he was able to self-train himself extremely well. He studied scores (he's father was a owner of a music shop) of great composers. J.S.Bach, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, etc. were his teachers and he learned so much. Professional training can be a problem too. Hovhaness' teachers called his original music stupid! Often it is the teacher in need of education.

Quote from: DavidW on September 25, 2009, 05:48:37 PM
I disagree, neither one has structural difficulties.  It's said alot, especially about Elgar, and I think I know where it comes from.  These neoromantic composers are seen as throwbacks, as a tonal refuge in the atonal storm.  Well, it takes one extra step to label them as easy listening which many people do.  But they're not, they wrote very complex music that would be assaulting to the ears of someone from the romantic era.  Elgar, Bax etc are not "easy listening" composers, and the only way for those that think so to resolve that cognitive dissonance of calling difficult music easy is to say that they must be poor orchestrators or simply deficient in composing in some way.

But the problem is not with the composers, it's with the audience.  If you accept the music for what it is then you can realize that these are not problematic composers, they simply write in a very unique style shared by only a few.

Well said DavidW.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidW on September 26, 2009, 06:47:57 AM
Quote from: Lethe on September 25, 2009, 07:09:25 PM
I don't consider those traits to be faults, but I took the training comment to mean he felt Elgar's music could be tidied up to reach a higher level of wider access/appeal or something, when the same criticism could equally be leveled at his music.

Oh yeah I know, your post was just an excuse to say something that had been on my mind recently! :D

Quote from: 71 dB on September 26, 2009, 01:14:47 AM
Well said DavidW.  ;)

Thank you sir! 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 09, 2009, 03:31:10 AM
Эльгар в Москве

Some interesting news for Elgar fans who bemoan the lack of attention paid to their hero outside the Anglosphere. I've been looking at the main Moscow concert website, and for some reason lots of Elgar is being played this year: the Enigma Variations (more than once), the violin and cello concertos, and a bunch of smaller pieces.

I'm a little puzzled, since it's not an anniversary or anything. Still, nice to see. (We also get Walton's 1st Symphony; I'm excited about that)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on November 09, 2009, 04:52:25 AM
Quote from: Contents Under Pressure on November 09, 2009, 03:31:10 AM
Эльгар в Москве

Some interesting news for Elgar fans who bemoan the lack of attention paid to their hero outside the Anglosphere. I've been looking at the main Moscow concert website, and for some reason lots of Elgar is being played this year: the Enigma Variations (more than once), the violin and cello concertos, and a bunch of smaller pieces.

I'm a little puzzled, since it's not an anniversary or anything. Still, nice to see. (We also get Walton's 1st Symphony; I'm excited about that)

I have a CD of Svetlanov and the USSR SO performing Elgar Symphony No 2 - a very interesting CD.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: secondwind on January 09, 2010, 09:36:34 PM
I just returned from hearing Elgar's Violin Concerto performed by Nikolaj Znaider with the National Symphony Orchestra under Leonard Slatkin.  My husband and I had such wildly different impressions of the piece, which was new to both of us, that it almost left me wondering if we had in fact heard the same concert! I thought it was lovely, beautifully played, introspective and sensitive, with moments of pastoral lyricism and episodes of inner struggle--whatever.  I liked it a lot.  He said it was the most tedious thing he'd ever heard.  He said other things even less complimentary to the work. 

It's not that we agree on everything, but it is rare indeed for us to come to such vastly different conclusions about a piece of music.  Is this an Elgar thing, or were  we each having our own particular kind of a bad day?  Can this marriage be saved?  ???
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 10, 2010, 12:41:17 AM
Elgar's Violin Concerto is my favorite VC! Absolutely awesome work  and totally undervalued.

Quote from: secondwind on January 09, 2010, 09:36:34 PMIs this an Elgar thing,

I think it is. 99 % of people just don't get his music. Really frustrating for us Elgarians.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on January 10, 2010, 04:42:33 AM
Secondwind - it's a classic "Elgar thing", and it's what seperates the factions who believe that Elgar is one of the greatest cross-century century Romantics and those who consider him over-hyped (by the insidious British Media, as I have learned from this forum :P).

His music at its most expansive is surprisingly difficult to grasp - not surprising that his "hits" are the more restrained cello concerto and the Enigma Variations. The symphonies and VC are rather different affairs... They are at once as supremely passionate and nostalgic as Rachmaninoff, but lack the directness that people find in his piano concertos. Many consider the symphonies in particular to be wallowing and loosely structured, but with close listening Elgar can be found to be as structured as Mahler, if not quite so bursting with ideas.

It's strange, as I doubt Elgar intended to write tough music, because it is constantly melodic and appealing to the ear at individual moments, but there is a certain density to his ideas which will always leave many people wondering what on earth he was trying to do - both orchestrationally and structurally - especially in the symphonies. To further contrast with Mahler's style: where Mahler is expansive, he is also chamber-like. His orchestral writing is an x-ray in which you can hear everything. Elgar is less radical, and as a result on a first listen (or even subsequent ones) the music can sound "gloopy" as there is too much going on under the surface. I suspect they would benefit greatly from score-reading, but that is beyond my ability at the moment.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on January 13, 2010, 11:50:44 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on January 29, 2009, 07:24:11 PM
Once again this forum has led me to music I might otherwise have missed! After reading the last few entries, I listened to The Music Makers for the first time (cond. Andrew Davis, an excellent performance/recording). I think the only previous Elgar choral work I'd heard was "All the young princesses", which sounds about as you might expect. Needless to say (but I'll say it anyway), I was very impressed by TMM. Its references to the orchestral works helped of course. So I quickly went out and picked up the Choral Collection on EMI, and now I think I will have to get the Collector's Edition as well. If only the Hickox discs were a little less expensive - it would be nice to hear these works in modern sound.

Yes, Elgar's librettos seem pretty awful. I wonder if some irreverent person has tried resetting Music Makers with words from the Wunderhorn, or some other more worthy text? ;)

      Another vote for The Music Makers....hooray! This is my favorite greatest hits medley ever produced by a classical composer. It might be the only such medley, but no matter, I really like it. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/angel.gif)

     Wild divergences about Elgar do seem to be common. I get the feeling that some listeners feel Elgar is beneath them, and there's a cultural and political bias involved. I will hazard a guess that much of the real anti-Elgar feeling stems from his association with British imperialism, which is still widely unpopular throughout the world. Elgar is seen not only as supporting imperialism but as being sentimental about it.

      David, you make an interesting point about difficulty with Elgar and Bax. When avant-gardists are difficult it's commonly taken by their partisans as a sign of the music's importance, and its uncompromising nature should inspire efforts to understand it. The music is better than you are, so you'd better buckle down and learn to appreciate it if you want to be taken seriously as a cultured person. Can you imagine such indulgence in the case of neo- or late romantic composers? No, in their case something must be wrong with the music! Look, either view is supportable IMO. Either you work to understand what's difficult or you decide the composer writes the wrong kind of music. What gets me is attacks on the difficulty of Elgar and Bax that assume that difficulty can only be explaned by defects and not by the ambition of the composer.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 14, 2010, 12:47:45 AM
Quote from: secondwind on January 09, 2010, 09:36:34 PM
I just returned from hearing Elgar's Violin Concerto performed by Nikolaj Znaider with the National Symphony Orchestra under Leonard Slatkin.  My husband and I had such wildly different impressions of the piece, which was new to both of us, that it almost left me wondering if we had in fact heard the same concert! I thought it was lovely, beautifully played, introspective and sensitive, with moments of pastoral lyricism and episodes of inner struggle--whatever.  I liked it a lot.  He said it was the most tedious thing he'd ever heard.  He said other things even less complimentary to the work. 

It's not that we agree on everything, but it is rare indeed for us to come to such vastly different conclusions about a piece of music.  Is this an Elgar thing, or were  we each having our own particular kind of a bad day?  Can this marriage be saved?  ???
It took me years to come to terms with the violin concerto, although now it's one of my most treasured pieces of music. I find it almost painfully beautiful and full of expressions of deep longing. I think for many people it has less immediate appeal than the cello concerto, and they find it too long - largely I suspect because of the 10 minute cadenza he attached at the end, which demands really close attention just when they think they've had enough. But everything that's there is essential as far as I can see. For me, it's a piece that benefits by some knowledge of the biographical background - most notably Elgar's relationship with his 'Windflower' (Alice Stuart Wortley),  his struggle with a deep-seated attitude to a certain feminine archetype, and the tug of war that went on within him between the public and private self.

The key to the concerto lies, in my opinion, in the cadenza. After a respectable half an hour's duration (and following a heartbreakingly moving second movement), just as he seems to be about to wind things up, 10 minutes into the last movement, suddenly a question is raised. Strikingly, the cadenza is announced by an eerie thrumming on the strings and the two 'windflower' themes (introduced so hauntingly in the first movement)  begin a kind of tortured dialogue on the solo violin, as if to say that matters are still unresolved between us. That 10-minute cadenza at times struggles to continue - there are a couple of moments when one feels the music is about to die, almost for sheer lack of momentum. The parallel with Elgar's personal temperament is unmissable, I think - the conflict between public and private persona; the conflict between woman as lover, and woman as mother - I think the cadenza seeks to make a musical resolution that symbolises a possible solution of his emotional conflicts. At the end, it seems that some kind of acceptance is reached - an acceptance that these are the conflicts that drive his music, perhaps? - and the thing is wrapped up with surprising suddenness, as he papers over the cracks with a last blast of the public self.

If you're as interested in Elgar the man as much as I am, then the violin concerto is a fascinating piece of music to explore over a lifetime. If you're not, then maybe that's when these criticisms about it being too long, etc, start to tell. But even so, I'd have thought most people could grow to love the sheer lyrical beauty of the second movement.



Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 14, 2010, 08:38:33 AM
Amazing interesting posts drogulus & Elgarian!  ;)

I also have felt always that Elgar suffers unjustly from "stylistic reasons."

I have loved the Violin Concerto as one of Elgar's best works from the first time I heard it and feel that if you understand what kind of man Elgar was, you'll understand and enjoy his music more. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on January 14, 2010, 10:12:47 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 10, 2010, 12:41:17 AM
99% of people just don't get his music. Really frustrating for us Elgarians.

I really do not think that is even remotely the case, Poju (the 99% remark; I cannot presume to validate or refute your frustration, which may well be of your own device).

For but one example:  On the Arkivmusic site, the top level of the Composer drilldown is a list of 100 "Most Popular Composers."  Not only is Elgar on that list, but by number of recordings available at Arkivmusic, he very comfortable 'ranks' at around no. 35.

That doesn't sound like "99% of people just don't get Elgar's music," except in the trivial sense that some equal percentage of people "just don't get" the music of 60 other composers on that list.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 14, 2010, 11:07:37 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 14, 2010, 10:12:47 AM

I really do not think that is even remotely the case, Poju (the 99% remark; I cannot presume to validate or refute your frustration, which may well be of your own device).

For but one example:  On the Arkivmusic site, the top level of the Composer drilldown is a list of 100 "Most Popular Composers."  Not only is Elgar on that list, but by number of recordings available at Arkivmusic, he very comfortable 'ranks' at around no. 35.

That doesn't sound like "99% of people just don't get Elgar's music," except in the trivial sense that some equal percentage of people "just don't get" the music of 60 other composers on that list.

By people I mean people, not classical music fans. Or do you really think more than 1 % (more than 60 million individuals) of the population on Earth gets Elgar's symphonies? Since that percentage is that low, I suppose less than half of people into classical music really gets Elgar's music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2010, 11:15:45 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 14, 2010, 11:07:37 AM
By people I mean people, not classical music fans. Or do you really think more than 1 % (more than 60 million individuals) of the population on Earth gets Elgar's symphonies? Since that percentage is that low, I suppose less than half of people into classical music really gets Elgar's music.

Well, by those *ahem* standards, I guess you can take comfort in the undoubted fact that a statistically insignificant number of people from that same percentage don't like or appreciate Beethoven either, who is clearly Elgar's nemesis. FWIW, I am in the 1%, despite being a bit shy to admit it in these circumstances... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on January 14, 2010, 11:26:20 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2010, 11:15:45 AM
Well, by those *ahem* standards, I guess you can take comfort in the undoubted fact that a statistically insignificant number of people from that same percentage don't like or appreciate Beethoven either, who is clearly Elgar's nemesis. FWIW, I am in the 1%, despite being a bit shy to admit it in these circumstances... :-\

8)

That was pretty obscure locution.  Are you saying you don't like Beethoven?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2010, 12:24:31 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 14, 2010, 11:26:20 AM
That was pretty obscure locution.  Are you saying you don't like Beethoven?

Obscurity is my strength... ;)

No, I'm not saying that. To be plainer, I'm saying that (by his logic) most of the world doesn't like Beethoven any more than they like Elgar, and for the same reason; that 99.9% that doesn't care for classical music. I only chose Beethoven because Poju is the archenemy of Beethoven and the champion of Elgar, when in fact the difference between the number of people who care for one v the other, when put in terms of the population of the entire world, is statistically insignificant.  Just sayin'...

8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on January 14, 2010, 12:28:10 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2010, 12:24:31 PM
Obscurity is my strength... ;)

No, I'm not saying that. To be plainer, I'm saying that (by his logic) most of the world doesn't like Beethoven any more than they like Elgar, and for the same reason; that 99.9% that doesn't care for classical music. I only chose Beethoven because Poju is the archenemy of Beethoven and the champion of Elgar, when in fact the difference between the number of people who care for one v the other, when put in terms of the population of the entire world, is statistically insignificant.  Just sayin'...

8)

The difference between the number of people who don't like Beethoven and don't like Elgar is insignificant.  The difference between the number of people who like Beethoven and like Elgar is significant.   >:D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2010, 12:38:19 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 14, 2010, 12:28:10 PM
The difference between the number of people who don't like Beethoven and don't like Elgar is insignificant.  The difference between the number of people who like Beethoven and like Elgar is significant.   >:D

Except our Poju has couched it in terms of percentages of the world population. If we were starting (sensibly) with people who like classical music, then you would be 100% correct.... hey, what can I say?   :D

8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on January 14, 2010, 04:35:10 PM
And, back to the videotape:

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 14, 2010, 10:12:47 AM
That doesn't sound like "99% of people just don't get Elgar's music," except in the trivial sense that some equal percentage of people "just don't get" the music of 60 other composers on that list.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on January 14, 2010, 07:40:33 PM

     
Quote from: Scarpia on January 14, 2010, 12:28:10 PM
The difference between the number of people who don't like Beethoven and don't like Elgar is insignificant.  The difference between the number of people who like Beethoven and like Elgar is significant.   >:D

      Therefore, Elgar is the greater composer. Even after 100 years people don't get him. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/shocked.gif) Beethoven is OK if you like popular music. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/tongue.gif)

      Pretty convincing, eh? (http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/527/20091118075459.jpg) (http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/1518/20091118054717.jpg) (http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/882/20091118075409.jpg)
     
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on January 14, 2010, 08:31:16 PM
Quote from: drogulus on January 14, 2010, 07:40:33 PM
     
      Therefore, Elgar is the greater composer. Even after 100 years people don't get him. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/shocked.gif) Beethoven is OK if you like popular music. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/tongue.gif)

      Pretty convincing, eh? (http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/527/20091118075459.jpg) (http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/1518/20091118054717.jpg) (http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/882/20091118075409.jpg)
     

I might even be willing to admit to liking some Elgar, until I realize that 71 db will interpret this as proof that he is really smarter than the rest of us afterall... >:(
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 15, 2010, 03:02:51 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 10, 2010, 12:41:17 AM
Elgar's Violin Concerto is my favorite VC! Absolutely awesome work  and totally undervalued.
My impression is that it's commonly regarded as one of the great violin concertos - not least by the fiddlers who play it. There are loads of recordings of it. I don't think it's undervalued.

Quote99 % of people just don't get his music. Really frustrating for us Elgarians.
I don't believe I do find it particularly frustrating. It seems to be part of the human condition that things are like that. 99.99% of people don't 'get' any of the things that fascinate me (and I suspect most people could say something similar).

Misinformation about Elgar is a different matter of course - and that can be frustrating when I encounter it; but on the whole, Elgar seems to be doing OK as far as I can see. There's a flourishing Elgar Society, a lovely Birthplace museum, a large number of excellent recordings available, an enticingly large array of fascinating books about him, and no shortage of performances of his music. Where's the problem?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 15, 2010, 03:11:17 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 15, 2010, 03:02:51 AM
Elgar seems to be doing OK as far as I can see. There's a flourishing Elgar Society, a lovely Birthplace museum, a large number of excellent recordings available, an enticingly large array of fascinating books about him, and no shortage of performances of his music. Where's the problem?

The problem is that I won't be able to make tonight's concert of the Enigma Variations plus the Cello Concerto - it's sold out (and that's in Moscow, mind you, not anywhere in the UK).

But I'll have another chance to hear the concerto in March (same hall, different soloist).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on January 15, 2010, 04:01:25 AM
     
Quote from: Elgarian on January 15, 2010, 03:02:51 AM
My impression is that it's commonly regarded as one of the great violin concertos - not least by the fiddlers who play it. There are loads of recordings of it. I don't think it's undervalued.


        I agree. Both concertos are well regarded. Even the symphonies have been recorded many times, and not just by the usual suspects. Unlike with the Bax symphonies, you don't have to be British to conduct them.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on January 15, 2010, 06:19:31 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 15, 2010, 03:02:51 AM
My impression is that it's commonly regarded as one of the great violin concertos - not least by the fiddlers who play it. There are loads of recordings of it. I don't think it's undervalued.

Hear, hear.  It is going to be a delight to hear the Vn Cto live at Symphony Hall this weekend!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 06:43:10 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2010, 12:24:31 PM
I only chose Beethoven because Poju is the archenemy of Beethoven and the champion of Elgar,

Not true! I am not an archenemy of Beethoven. I consider him the greatest composer of string quartets. What I am saying is that in my opinion Beethoven wasn't that great in everything. That doesn't make me an archenemy, not even an enemy.  It makes me critical.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 07:27:43 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 15, 2010, 03:02:51 AMWhere's the problem?

Over there in UK the problem might be invisible but come to Finland! Elgar's status here is miserable.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: MN Dave on January 15, 2010, 07:29:58 AM
Who cares what Finland thinks?   :P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on January 15, 2010, 08:08:25 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 06:43:10 AM
Not true! I am not an archenemy of Beethoven. I consider him the greatest composer of string quartets.

Beethoven was also a symphonist far superior to Elgar. (Just saying.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 11:07:42 AM
Quote from: Beethovenian on January 15, 2010, 07:29:58 AM
Who cares what Finland thinks?   :P

I care because I am a Finn. It's not only Finland. Elgar's status is low is Poland, France, Italy, China, Brazil, Island, etc.. etc...

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 15, 2010, 08:08:25 AM
Beethoven was also a symphonist far superior to Elgar. (Just saying.)

So you say but Beethoven's all 9 symphonies together means to me less than one of Elgar's symphonies.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: MN Dave on January 15, 2010, 11:09:46 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 11:07:42 AM
I care because I am a Finn. It's not only Finland. Elgar's status is low is Poland, France, Italy, China, Brazil, Island, etc.. etc...

I know you're a Finn. I was yanking your chain. Worked, didn't it? ;)

Is the only place they really care about Elgar the UK?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 11:12:55 AM
Quote from: Beethovenian on January 15, 2010, 11:09:46 AMIs the only place they really care about Elgar the UK?

So I have understood but Elgar probably has some kind of status in US also.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: MN Dave on January 15, 2010, 11:22:08 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 11:12:55 AM
So I have understood but Elgar probably has some kind of status in US also.

Well, I certainly play him on occasion.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 15, 2010, 11:34:30 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 15, 2010, 06:19:31 AM
Hear, hear.  It is going to be a delight to hear the Vn Cto live at Symphony Hall this weekend!

Well I hope it's wonderful. (Make sure you wear a windflower in your buttonhole.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on January 15, 2010, 11:42:17 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 11:07:42 AM
So you say but Beethoven's all 9 symphonies together means to me less than one of Elgar's symphonies.

Which reflects very poorly on you, we might add.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on January 15, 2010, 11:43:02 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 15, 2010, 11:34:30 AM
Well I hope it's wonderful. (Make sure you wear a windflower in your buttonhole.)

Very good, sieur.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 15, 2010, 11:42:17 AM
Which reflects very poorly on you, we might add.

Please explain. At least I have been able to make my own opinion instead of sucking into "Beethoven > Elgar" propaganda.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on January 15, 2010, 11:59:30 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 11:51:53 AM
Please explain. At least I have been able to make my own opinion instead of sucking into "Beethoven > Elgar" propaganda.

For one thing, it reflects poorly on you that you are unable to acknowledge that people who appreciate Beethoven have also made their own opinion.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 15, 2010, 12:09:50 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 11:07:42 AM
but Beethoven's all 9 symphonies together means to me less than one of Elgar's symphonies.
If I'm honest, I should admit that I feel like that too, but there are two different kinds of statements being made here. You and I are talking about a particularly deep and enriching engagement that our temperaments permit us to make with Elgar's music. That such an engagement is possible at all implies that Elgar's symphonies are fine symphonies in some sense, at least. That's quite enough in itself, in my view. There's no need in this to make comparisons with how the symphonies of others affect us. It's not a competition.

Karl, however, is taking a more detached, balanced, broader view, considering Beethoven's symphonies partly, (I suppose) in the context of the history of music, but also, and probably more importantly, considering the abundance of musical invention they contain.

These two views (one mostly subjective, the other based on criteria that can I suppose be clearly established) can happily coexist. I can state with a cheerful smile that I wouldn't swap Elgar's first symphony for all of Beethoven's, while still agreeing that Karl is probably right.

Or, to employ the gastronomical approach to musical appreciation: apples are a better food than ice cream smothered in chocolate sauce, but I still like ice cream more. [Sigh.]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on January 15, 2010, 12:14:44 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 11:51:53 AM
Please explain. At least I have been able to make my own opinion instead of sucking into "Beethoven > Elgar" propaganda.

Beethoven > Elgar is not propaganda;  it is a large consensus.  There's room for argument here and there;  but overall, musicological evaluation of the two composers scores the advantage to Beethoven.  (And not only in string quartets.)

Elgar > Beethoven is certainly propaganda, and of much the whackier sort.  It is very troubling that you continue in mouth-foaming denial of this.


Quote from: Elgarian on January 15, 2010, 12:09:50 PM
If I'm honest, I should admit that I feel like that too, but there are two different kinds of statements being made here. You and I are talking about a particularly deep and enriching engagement that our temperaments permit us to make with Elgar's music. That such an engagement is possible at all implies that Elgar's symphonies are fine symphonies in some sense, at least. That's quite enough in itself, in my view. There's no need in this to make comparisons with how the symphonies of others affect us. It's not a competition.

Karl, however, is taking a more detached, balanced, broader view, considering Beethoven's symphonies partly, (I suppose) in the context of the history of music, but also, and probably more importantly, considering the abundance of musical invention they contain.

These two views (one mostly subjective, the other based on criteria that can I suppose be clearly established) can happily coexist. I can state with a cheerful smile that I wouldn't swap Elgar's first symphony for all of Beethoven's, while still agreeing that Karl is probably right.

It is a pleasure to share the conversation with you, esteemed sir.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 15, 2010, 12:22:46 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 15, 2010, 12:14:44 PM
It is a pleasure to share the conversation with you, esteemed sir.
Always a pleasure to share a conversation with you, Dr Henning. But if you think I might share my ice cream & chocolate sauce, then let it be known that I'll fight to the death. (You can have the apples though.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 01:22:55 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 15, 2010, 11:59:30 AM
For one thing, it reflects poorly on you that you are unable to acknowledge that people who appreciate Beethoven have also made their own opinion.

Have they really? I appreciate Beethoven's string quartets because I feel his musical style really shines with that instrumentation. I also feel that his symphonies are under-orchestrated which makes them sound like an elephant in a porcelain store.

Our culture seems to say that we are supposed to appreciate Beethoven. If not then we are freaks and a freak I seem to be.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 01:41:09 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 15, 2010, 12:14:44 PMBeethoven > Elgar is not propaganda;  it is a large consensus.  There's room for argument here and there;  but overall, musicological evaluation of the two composers scores the advantage to Beethoven.  (And not only in string quartets.)

But what is the historical basis of that large consensus? That's what is interesting. If Beethoven was declared the greatest composer in history when young Elgar was learning to compose, what chance was there for Elgar? That's the point. What I am doing is finding these mistakes in that large consensus. That's what free-thinkers do, question prevailing conceptions. If you think the consensus has been 100 % right then just think about all the "forgotten" composers that have been found. Consensus changes. Someday it favors Elgar if there is justice.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 15, 2010, 12:14:44 PMElgar > Beethoven is certainly propaganda, and of much the whackier sort.  It is very troubling that you continue in mouth-foaming denial of this.[/font]

Yes, it is propaganda and for an important reason.
 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on January 15, 2010, 02:19:31 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 01:41:09 PM
But what is the historical basis of that large consensus? That's what is interesting. If Beethoven was declared the greatest composer in history when young Elgar was learning to compose, what chance was there for Elgar? That's the point. What I am doing is finding these mistakes in that large consensus. That's what free-thinkers do, question prevailing conceptions. If you think the consensus has been 100 % right then just think about all the "forgotten" composers that have been found. Consensus changes. Someday it favors Elgar if there is justice.

Hehehehe!  I think "free-thinking" means thinking unfettered by any logic or evidence.

When Beethoven learned to compose there were also composers who were considered the great masters, Haydn, Mozart, Handel, etc.  Beethoven found his place nevertheless.  Since Beethoven, other composers have come to be regarded as equal in stature, for instance Brahms, Wagner, perhaps Bruckner, Mahler, Strauss, Tchaikovsky, Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Sibelius, or others depending on your inclination.

I wouldn't necessarily label Beethoven the greatest composer in history, but he certainly had a pivotal role the development of western music, and has perhaps been more influential than any composer since.  One thing that is not open to debate is the fact that Elgar not have a similar influence.  He had his own style which was more or less conventional during the period he worked, and  he does not seem to have influenced his contemporaries or the composers that came after him to a great extent.   It does not really make sense to compare Elgar to Beethoven, but it seems clear that Elgar is not of the same stature of some of his contemporaries that had a great influence in the direction of 20th century music, such as those I have referred to above.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 02:42:35 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 15, 2010, 02:19:31 PMElgar not have a similar influence.  He had his own style which was more or less conventional during the period he worked, and  he does not seem to have influenced his contemporaries or the composers that came after him to a great extent.   It does not really make sense to compare Elgar to Beethoven, but it seems clear that Elgar is not of the same stature of some of his contemporaries that had a great influence in the direction of 20th century music, such as those I have referred to above.

Now you are talking about the reasons why Elgar is a victim of history. Elgar should have been very influential but the development of music took anti-Elgarian turns. Elgar was an influence to British composer (Walton, RWV) and for example movie composer John Williams uses Elgarian influences in his scores.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: secondwind on January 15, 2010, 08:03:13 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 14, 2010, 12:47:45 AM
It took me years to come to terms with the violin concerto, although now it's one of my most treasured pieces of music. I find it almost painfully beautiful and full of expressions of deep longing. I think for many people it has less immediate appeal than the cello concerto, and they find it too long - largely I suspect because of the 10 minute cadenza he attached at the end, which demands really close attention just when they think they've had enough. But everything that's there is essential as far as I can see. For me, it's a piece that benefits by some knowledge of the biographical background - most notably Elgar's relationship with his 'Windflower' (Alice Stuart Wortley),  his struggle with a deep-seated attitude to a certain feminine archetype, and the tug of war that went on within him between the public and private self.

The key to the concerto lies, in my opinion, in the cadenza. After a respectable half an hour's duration (and following a heartbreakingly moving second movement), just as he seems to be about to wind things up, 10 minutes into the last movement, suddenly a question is raised. Strikingly, the cadenza is announced by an eerie thrumming on the strings and the two 'windflower' themes (introduced so hauntingly in the first movement)  begin a kind of tortured dialogue on the solo violin, as if to say that matters are still unresolved between us. That 10-minute cadenza at times struggles to continue - there are a couple of moments when one feels the music is about to die, almost for sheer lack of momentum. The parallel with Elgar's personal temperament is unmissable, I think - the conflict between public and private persona; the conflict between woman as lover, and woman as mother - I think the cadenza seeks to make a musical resolution that symbolises a possible solution of his emotional conflicts. At the end, it seems that some kind of acceptance is reached - an acceptance that these are the conflicts that drive his music, perhaps? - and the thing is wrapped up with surprising suddenness, as he papers over the cracks with a last blast of the public self.

If you're as interested in Elgar the man as much as I am, then the violin concerto is a fascinating piece of music to explore over a lifetime. If you're not, then maybe that's when these criticisms about it being too long, etc, start to tell. But even so, I'd have thought most people could grow to love the sheer lyrical beauty of the second movement.

Well, this gives me hope for my dear hubby, Elgarian!  If it took you years to "come to terms with" the violin concerto,  I guess I can give hubby a bit of time too.  While I'm waiting for him to come around, I can study the piece a bit on my own, and then perhaps I'll be better able to articulate what I like about it.  You mention interest in Elgar the man--any suggestions where I should turn for info after my usual initial stops (i.e., Slonimsky and Wikipedia ;D)?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 16, 2010, 02:12:31 AM
Quote from: secondwind on January 15, 2010, 08:03:13 PMAny suggestions where I should turn for info after my usual initial stops (i.e., Slonimsky and Wikipedia ;D)?

http://www.elgar.org/welcome.htm (http://www.elgar.org/welcome.htm)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: secondwind on January 16, 2010, 05:05:19 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 16, 2010, 02:12:31 AM
http://www.elgar.org/welcome.htm (http://www.elgar.org/welcome.htm)
Thanks, 71dB! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 16, 2010, 07:01:24 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 11:07:42 AM
I care because I am a Finn. It's not only Finland. Elgar's status is low is Poland, France, Italy, China, Brazil, Island, etc.. etc...

Somehow I get the impression that you enjoy exaggerating Elgar's low status. Sorry if I'm misreading you, but that's how it seems to me. Are you one of those guys who likes the feeling of being in a despised and misunderstood minority?  ;D

I posted a couple of times about the numerous Elgar performances in Moscow this year. And yes, he does get played quite a bit in the US (not of course as much as in the UK, but still). I hope this good news doesn't make your head explode.

The Elgar vs. Beethoven debate is pointless. Elgar doesn't have to be one of the handful of supremely great composers to be enjoyable. Hey, I like some Elgar too, but I don't feel a great need to puff him up to ridiculous size.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the two concertos later this year.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 16, 2010, 07:54:52 AM
Quote from: secondwind on January 16, 2010, 05:05:19 AM
Thanks, 71dB! :)
You are welcome.  ;)

Quote from: Velimir on January 16, 2010, 07:01:24 AM
Somehow I get the impression that you enjoy exaggerating Elgar's low status.

I don't exaggerate Elgar's low status and I don't enjoy his low status.

Quote from: Velimir on January 16, 2010, 07:01:24 AMSorry if I'm misreading you, but that's how it seems to me. Are you one of those guys who likes the feeling of being in a despised and misunderstood minority?  ;D

Well, I am proud about it but I don't think I like it.

Quote from: Velimir on January 16, 2010, 07:01:24 AMI posted a couple of times about the numerous Elgar performances in Moscow this year.

Numerous performances isn't the issue.



Quote from: Velimir on January 16, 2010, 07:01:24 AMThe Elgar vs. Beethoven debate is pointless. Elgar doesn't have to be one of the handful of supremely great composers to be enjoyable. Hey, I like some Elgar too, but I don't feel a great need to puff him up to ridiculous size.

This is the point. I am considered a freak because I think Elgar is much greater than his status

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on January 16, 2010, 08:10:32 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 01:41:09 PM
Yes, it is propaganda and for an important reason.

Congratulations, Poju: you have discovered the root of your frustration.  Anyone else in the universe perceives that the Elgar > Beethoven propaganda is rubbish;  and that your "important reason" is rubbish.  And that rationalizing your propaganda is intellectual bankruptcy.  End result: your own frustration.  You're a fellow at market trying to sell his sand as porridge, and no one's buying, even when you demo by eating the sand.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 16, 2010, 08:23:52 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 16, 2010, 08:10:32 AM
Congratulations, Poju: you have discovered the root of your frustration.  Anyone else in the universe perceives that the Elgar > Beethoven propaganda is rubbish;  and that your "important reason" is rubbish.  And that rationalizing your propaganda is intellectual bankruptcy.  End result: your own frustration.  You're a fellow at market trying to sell his sand as porridge, and no one's buying, even when you demo by eating the sand.

Posts like this takes the discussion out of Elgar and points it to me. I won't get into it. Why not discuss Elgar's part-songs instead? I feel they aren't that well-known...

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on January 16, 2010, 09:18:50 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 16, 2010, 08:23:52 AM
Posts like this takes the discussion out of Elgar and points it to me. I won't get into it. Why not discuss Elgar's part-songs instead? I feel they aren't that well-known...

You also make the discussion about you, my friend.  How many times have you patiently explained to us that your "free-thinking" has allowed you to discover that the broad consensus of composers, performers and listeners around the globe is wrong and that you alone have discovered that Elgar is superior to the hacks the rest of us half-wits have deluded ourselves into thinking are great composers?

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 16, 2010, 11:38:46 PM
Quote from: James on January 16, 2010, 02:34:58 PM
Elgar ... VERY Wagner influenced but found his own way within that ...

I read somewhere Elgar's big idol was Brahms, which makes sense...I don't hear too much Wagner influence.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 17, 2010, 01:05:14 AM
Quote from: James on January 16, 2010, 02:34:58 PM
Elgar ... VERY Wagner influenced but found his own way within that ... i prefer him to overhyped bores like Beethoven (yawn), easily ...
Quote from: Velimir on January 16, 2010, 11:38:46 PM
I read somewhere Elgar's big idol was Brahms, which makes sense...I don't hear too much Wagner influence.

Elgar was self-educated. As a child he studied scores (borrowed from his father's music shop) of many composers. Elgar had many strong influences including J. S. Bach, Handel, Beethoven, Mozart, Berlioz and Brahms. I am not sure about how big influence Wagner was as I find both similarities and differences in their music. What I know is Elgar was deeply impressed by the music of sadly forgotten composer Philipp Wolfrum. Handel was perhaps the most educational and inspirational composer to Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 17, 2010, 02:52:30 AM
This makes sense, especially about Handel, who was hugely popular in 19th-c. England. But I hear Elgar's music as a fairly conscious attempt to follow in the Beethoven-Brahms line of orchestral composition. There are also some interesting stylistic points reminiscent of R. Strauss or Mahler, also natural since they were all contemporaries. (Strauss I think was an admirer of Elgar, and I know Mahler conducted him.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on January 19, 2010, 05:09:04 AM
Hahn's recording of the Opus 61, while certainly a pleasant enough listen, is a bit too girly and light of tread.  I suspect I always knew this, but its truth was especially emphasized by the gutsy, commanding performance Znaider gave of the work at Symphony this past weekend.  (He plays it again tonight, I believe.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 19, 2010, 05:25:31 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 19, 2010, 05:09:04 AM
Hahn's recording of the Opus 61, while certainly a pleasant enough listen, is a bit too girly and light of tread.  I suspect I always knew this, but its truth was especially emphasized by the gutsy, commanding performance Znaider gave of the work at Symphony this past weekend.  (He plays it again tonight, I believe.)

You know Znaider's recording of it is now out?

All I've got is the old Heifetz from 1949 or so. Highly rated, but one has to contend with the sonics of that period.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on January 19, 2010, 05:28:54 AM
Quote from: Velimir on January 19, 2010, 05:25:31 AM
You know Znaider's recording of it is now out?

I saw that in Jens' recent posts. Certainly on my short list.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 24, 2010, 12:15:43 PM
Quote from: secondwind on January 15, 2010, 08:03:13 PM
You mention interest in Elgar the man--any suggestions where I should turn for info after my usual initial stops (i.e., Slonimsky and Wikipedia ;D)?

There are some really fabulous 'I was there' books about Elgar:

Memories of a Variation by 'Mrs Richard Powell' [b. Dora Penny]. She was the inspiration for the 'Dorabella' variation and her reminiscences of her friendship with Elgar are full of charm and presented with great vividness. The chapter where she talks about how Elgar played some of the variations (including hers) for her at the piano, for the first time, is just gorgeous.

Elgar as I Knew Him by W.H. Reed. The author is Billy' Reed - Leader of the London Symphony Orchestra, and one of Elgar's closest friends. I think, if I remember correctly, Elgar consulted him a good deal while composing the violin concerto and they gave a private performance of a version of it with Billy on fiddle and Elgar on piano.

Edward Elgar: The Record of a Friendship by Rosa Burley, who was headmistress of the school where Elgar taught violin before he was famous, and became a friend of long-standing. When asked why she wasn't a Variation, she bravely replied: 'I was the theme!'

Reading all these books is like spending time in Elgar's company - you catch the little things about him: the way he spoke and behaved, his jokes, his unpredictability, his weaknesses, his strengths.



Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 24, 2010, 12:26:39 PM
Quote from: Velimir on January 16, 2010, 11:38:46 PM
I don't hear too much Wagner influence.

My understanding is that Elgar was a pretty ardent Wagnerian, and in the big oratorios (GerontiusThe Apostles and The Kingdom) there seem to me to be many passages that show the influence of Wagner, in addition to the obvious structural leanings such as the use of the leitmotif as a unifying and dramatic device.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: secondwind on January 24, 2010, 08:03:22 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 24, 2010, 12:15:43 PM
There are some really fabulous 'I was there' books about Elgar:

Memories of a Variation by 'Mrs Richard Powell' [b. Dora Penny]. She was the inspiration for the 'Dorabella' variation and her reminiscences of her friendship with Elgar are full of charm and presented with great vividness. The chapter where she talks about how Elgar played some of the variations (including hers) for her at the piano, for the first time, is just gorgeous.

Elgar as I Knew Him by W.H. Reed. The author is Billy' Reed - Leader of the London Symphony Orchestra, and one of Elgar's closest friends. I think, if I remember correctly, Elgar consulted him a good deal while composing the violin concerto and they gave a private performance of a version of it with Billy on fiddle and Elgar on piano.

Edward Elgar: The Record of a Friendship by Rosa Burley, who was headmistress of the school where Elgar taught violin before he was famous, and became a friend of long-standing. When asked why she wasn't a Variation, she bravely replied: 'I was the theme!'

Reading all these books is like spending time in Elgar's company - you catch the little things about him: the way he spoke and behaved, his jokes, his unpredictability, his weaknesses, his strengths.
Thanks!  I'll see which of these I can put my hands on soon, and I'll add it to the formidable "to be read" pile.  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 25, 2010, 12:44:44 PM
Quote from: secondwind on January 24, 2010, 08:03:22 PM
Thanks!  I'll see which of these I can put my hands on soon, and I'll add it to the formidable "to be read" pile.

Sounds like your pile is no less daunting than mine .... One quality of these in my list is that all three are not very long and each could be read in an afternoon if it came to a squeeze; their essentially anecdotal character makes them easy to absorb.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on February 07, 2010, 06:27:54 AM

     I'm listening to The Kingdom, and thinking about what is meant by musical genius. The Prelude, in the last 3 minutes, is an example of what genius sounds like to me. What does a genius do? Whatever is necessary? Yes, of course, but what is often necessary involves repetition where it isn't expected and cuts with missing beats. The beats aren't filled in, they just go missing. So when I hum the theme I do what people often do, I get it wrong by underestimating the number of repeated phrases and I restore beats that were removed. Or better yet, Elgar heard the music without the beats, if you can do that. I think he wrote the theme and played it back and at some point just cut out a measure here and there. The result is magical, otherworldly. Or it didn't happen that way at all, but some other way, and I can only imagine it like this.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 07, 2010, 11:30:38 AM
Quote from: drogulus on February 07, 2010, 06:27:54 AMThe result is magical, otherworldly.

To me that is Elgar's trademark.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on February 12, 2010, 08:03:20 AM
      I hate to keep harping on the Prelude* but I just got a chance to compare the Hickox version to the Boult. The Hickox must be a very good performance to achieve the magical quality I talked about, but I'm afraid that a direct comparison with Boult's 1968 recording is not flattering. It's a shame in a way since Hickox has done a fine job and even now I can't complain. It's just that Boult plays this music with more inflection, as though thinking with Elgar's mind. No doubt some of this is due to the fact that Boult has been setting the standard for Elgar for almost a century. Yet I think even if you could listen with fresh ears you would quickly come to think that this is how the music should go.

      * {obviously lying} (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)

      I don't think you can beat this:

      Elgar conducting the BBC SO in the Prelude to The Kingdom. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVU9CXPq-oo)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 08, 2010, 06:45:40 AM
It'll kill Poju . . . our man in Maine reports:

QuoteElgar, so much representative of British classical music, will no longer be a "legal tender" as of June the 30th.

Here's the dish. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/blog/2010/mar/08/edward-elgar-20-note)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 08, 2010, 10:08:25 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 08, 2010, 06:45:40 AM
It'll kill Poju . . . our man in Maine reports:
 
Here's the dish. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/blog/2010/mar/08/edward-elgar-20-note)

He's had a good run. For a guy who merely wanted to reach the level of fame that meant letters addressed to 'Edward Elgar, England' would reach him, I'd say that to have his face on the currency for ten years would seem a pretty good outcome.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 08, 2010, 10:11:20 AM
Aye.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 08, 2010, 10:18:05 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 08, 2010, 10:11:20 AM
Aye.

Just putting the finishing touches to my letter. There...
Now, sealing the envelope ....

'Karl Henning, America'

That should do it. See you on a dollar bill in a few years' time, Karl.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 08, 2010, 10:25:29 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 08, 2010, 10:08:25 AM
He's had a good run. For a guy who merely wanted to reach the level of fame that meant letters addressed to 'Edward Elgar, England' would reach him, I'd say that to have his face on the currency for ten years would seem a pretty good outcome.

Modest guy.  Replaced by the Spice Girls, I take it?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on March 08, 2010, 03:12:52 PM
This decision was actually taken a couple of years ago, I believe.

Art replaced by commerce.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 09, 2010, 06:56:54 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 08, 2010, 06:45:40 AM
It'll kill Poju . . . our man in Maine reports:

It didn't kill me. It just makes me more frustrated and depressed.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 09, 2010, 07:00:28 AM
The verb is figurative, you see.  As I wrote it, it has the virtue of brevity.  It'll frustrate and depress Poju yet more just doesn't sing.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 09, 2010, 07:07:12 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 09, 2010, 06:56:54 AM
It didn't kill me. It just makes me more frustrated and depressed.

As frustrated and depressed as I was when we lost the Deutschmark and my beloved Clara Schumann:

(http://www.geneva.edu/~dksmith/clara/cla1.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 09, 2010, 07:11:03 AM
That's a handsome note, Sarge!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 09, 2010, 07:47:24 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 09, 2010, 07:07:12 AM
As frustrated and depressed as I was when we lost the Deutschmark and my beloved Clara Schumann:

(http://www.geneva.edu/~dksmith/clara/cla1.jpg)


Sarge

Well, we had my favorite architect Alvar Aalto on the 50 mk note.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 09, 2010, 09:45:05 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 09, 2010, 07:11:03 AM
That's a handsome note, Sarge!

Well, it was, sniff, sniff...I miss the old broad.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 09, 2010, 12:51:22 PM
The really sad thing about Elgar is that, in spite of the modern tendency to sweep him away along with Imperialism and all that it implies culturally, he never actually felt a part of all that. To the end, he felt like a jumped-up violin teacher; a tradesman made good. Always an outsider. That comment, about wanting to be famous enough that a letter marked 'Edward Elgar, England' would reach him, tells a sad tale really; it's the tale of a tradesman who was overly conscious of his status in society, never able to overcome those rigid cultural barriers. Even knighted, and his music feted, he was never able to accept his success himself for what it was - and I rather think that there was no accolade, no distinction, no decoration, that would have satisfied him, because the need ran too deep.

I think that need fed all his rather strange relationships with women (in different ways), and drove the sense of longing for acceptance that pervades so much of his music (and which makes Elgar so much 'my' composer because I recognise so much of my own deepest longings in his music). That persistent striving for 'nobilmente' in his music is entirely misunderstood when people start talking about Jingoism. It's actually the opposite - it represents a search for an ideal that he hadn't found, and couldn't find, but could only project onto British Imperialism because it was the nearest thing to the Arthurian chivalric ideal that he'd got.

And the desperately sad fact is that if someone had been able to see the future, and had told Elgar that he would become so famous that his image would be engraved on British currency for ten years, he would have shrugged disconsolately and said: 'But only ten years, you see. Then they took me off.' At the core of Elgar there is a desperately insecure man, longing for somewhere, some way, to belong.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 09, 2010, 01:23:07 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 09, 2010, 07:07:12 AM
As frustrated and depressed as I was when we lost the Deutschmark and my beloved Clara Schumann:

(http://www.geneva.edu/~dksmith/clara/cla1.jpg)


Sarge

Whoever did the ingraving was a hack.  Why does the mouth look so oddly crimped?  No sign of that anomaly in the image that was used as the basis for it.

(http://www.wiehl.de/buergerinfo/zeitung/2003-04/clara_schumann.jpg)

Really, they should have used this image.

More fetching.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 09, 2010, 02:24:51 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 09, 2010, 12:51:22 PM
The really sad thing about Elgar is that, in spite of the modern tendency to sweep him away along with Imperialism and all that it implies culturally, he never actually felt a part of all that. To the end, he felt like a jumped-up violin teacher; a tradesman made good. Always an outsider. That comment, about wanting to be famous enough that a letter marked 'Edward Elgar, England' would reach him, tells a sad tale really; it's the tale of a tradesman who was overly conscious of his status in society, never able to overcome those rigid cultural barriers. Even knighted, and his music feted, he was never able to accept his success himself for what it was - and I rather think that there was no accolade, no distinction, no decoration, that would have satisfied him, because the need ran too deep.

I think that need fed all his rather strange relationships with women (in different ways), and drove the sense of longing for acceptance that pervades so much of his music (and which makes Elgar so much 'my' composer because I recognise so much of my own deepest longings in his music). That persistent striving for 'nobilmente' in his music is entirely misunderstood when people start talking about Jingoism. It's actually the opposite - it represents a search for an ideal that he hadn't found, and couldn't find, but could only project onto British Imperialism because it was the nearest thing to the Arthurian chivalric ideal that he'd got.

And the desperately sad fact is that if someone had been able to see the future, and had told Elgar that he would become so famous that his image would be engraved on British currency for ten years, he would have shrugged disconsolately and said: 'But only ten years, you see. Then they took me off.' At the core of Elgar there is a desperately insecure man, longing for somewhere, some way, to belong.

Lovely post, sieur. Thank you.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 09, 2010, 02:48:39 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 09, 2010, 01:23:07 PM
Why does the mouth look so oddly crimped?

She's puckering up to give us a kiss, of course  :)

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 09, 2010, 02:52:46 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 09, 2010, 02:48:39 PM

Quote from: ScarpiaWhy does the mouth look so oddly crimped?

She's puckering up to give us a kiss, of course  :)

Sarge

Or, she's thinking, Robert thinks his portrait should be here!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 09, 2010, 10:54:35 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 09, 2010, 12:51:22 PM
At the core of Elgar there is a desperately insecure man, longing for somewhere, some way, to belong.

To me, the most interesting aspect of Elgar's music is the clash between the swaggering, outgoing persona he sets up and the feelings of doubt and unease that arise to undermine that persona.

It took me a while to hear that. But now I think it's the most distinctive part of his compositional style.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 09, 2010, 11:59:15 PM
Quote from: Velimir on March 09, 2010, 10:54:35 PM
To me, the most interesting aspect of Elgar's music is the clash between the swaggering, outgoing persona he sets up and the feelings of doubt and unease that arise to undermine that persona.

It took me a while to hear that. But now I think it's the most distinctive part of his compositional style.

I think of it slightly differently, as a tussle between the public life and the private life (nowhere explored so searchingly as in the violin concerto, perhaps), but I think we're talking about essentially the same thing.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 14, 2010, 01:58:42 AM
Help please!

Despite received opinion that Elgar's 2nd Symphony is finer than his first. I have always preferred Number 1. It is some time since I gave the Second an outing and I always enjoyed it. The only recording I have is Solti. I listened to it yesterday and suddenly, it sounded bombastic and overblown. I turned it off after the third movement.

I want to reclaim it if I can. Can someone recommend me a version; preferably in good sound?

I have several versions of No 1, amongst them Colin Davis with he LSO. I keep it for the final movement which is stupendous, but I think he takes the main theme of the first movement much too slowly. I would probably be happy with him in No 1 as long as there is nothing eccentric about what he does with it.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 14, 2010, 03:28:31 AM
Quote from: knight on March 14, 2010, 01:58:42 AM
Help please!

Despite received opinion that Elgar's 2nd Symphony is finer than his first. I have always preferred Number 1. It is some time since I gave the Second an outing and I always enjoyed it. The only recording I have is Solti. I listened to it yesterday and suddenly, it sounded bombastic and overblown. I turned it off after the third movement.

I want to reclaim it if I can. Can someone recommend me a version; preferably in good sound?

I have several versions of No 1, amongst them Colin Davis with he LSO. I keep it for the final movement which is stupendous, but I think he takes the main theme of the first movement much too slowly. I would probably be happy with him in No 1 as long as there is nothing eccentric about what he does with it.

Mike

I think you wouldn't like my favorites (Sinopoli and Tate...both far slower than the norm). Penguin recommends the budget priced Handley (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Symphony-No-2-Sea-Pictures/dp/B0000647HL/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268565825&sr=1-1) and Downes (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Symphony-BBC-Philharmonic-Orchestra/dp/B00002605I/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268565758&sr=1-4).

Sarge


Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on March 14, 2010, 03:58:08 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 19, 2010, 05:09:04 AM
Hahn's recording of the Opus 61, while certainly a pleasant enough listen, is a bit too girly and light of tread.  I suspect I always knew this, but its truth was especially emphasized by the gutsy, commanding performance Znaider gave of the work at Symphony this past weekend.  (He plays it again tonight, I believe.)
I agree about Hahn's Elgar, but love that disc for RVW's Lark, the loveliest among the half-dozen or so in my collection.  I seem to have imprinted on Nigel Kennedy's second recording of Elgar's cto, the one w/Rattie, compared to which Hahn sounds feminine if not quite girly.  (For some reason the term "girly" always brings Richard Simmons to mind.)  Come to think of it, I prefer Kennedy's masculine Brahms VC to Hahn's feminine one, too.

What makes her playing seem "feminine?"  Is it the consistently sweet tone?  Are her attacks less fierce than fluid?  Her runs more agile than aggressive?  I've not sought to analyze it, but I've felt that way about her playing from the time I first heard her.  (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 14, 2010, 03:58:41 AM
Quote from: knight on March 14, 2010, 01:58:42 AM
Help please!

Despite received opinion that Elgar's 2nd Symphony is finer than his first.

Yes, it's true that the 2nd is a finer work. When you agree with that then you know you understand Elgar's music!  ;)

Quote from: knight on March 14, 2010, 01:58:42 AMI have always preferred Number 1. It is some time since I gave the Second an outing and I always enjoyed it. The only recording I have is Solti. I listened to it yesterday and suddenly, it sounded bombastic and overblown. I turned it off after the third movement.
It's a sign of not truly understanding Elgar if you find it bombastic and overblown. It's like complaining about Bach's music being contrapuntal. Listen "beyond" the loud orchestral bits and find all the subtleties of Elgar's music. Don't compare Elgar with composer with thin orchestration style. Forget about other composers while listening to Elgar and hear what he is able to do with his thick style! Listening with headphones helps a lot because Elgar benefits from analytical listening (perhaps that is where many go wrong with Elgar thinking it's only emotional music?)

Quote from: knight on March 14, 2010, 01:58:42 AMI want to reclaim it if I can. Can someone recommend me a version; preferably in good sound?
Downes on Naxos is the way to go.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on March 14, 2010, 04:00:08 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 08, 2010, 10:18:05 AM
Just putting the finishing touches to my letter. There...
Now, sealing the envelope ....

'Karl Henning, America'

That should do it. See you on a dollar bill in a few years' time, Karl.
Only the one dollar bill?  Not the twenty?  Or the fifty?  Oh, well...so long as it's not the three, I suppose.  (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on March 14, 2010, 04:05:25 AM
Quote from: knight on March 14, 2010, 01:58:42 AMDespite received opinion that Elgar's 2nd Symphony is finer than his first. I have always preferred Number 1. It is some time since I gave the Second an outing and I always enjoyed it. The only recording I have is Solti. I listened to it yesterday and suddenly, it sounded bombastic and overblown. I turned it off after the third movement.
Can't help, Mike.  I prefer the first, too, and seldom make it all the way through the second, so put off am I by the bombast.  (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 14, 2010, 04:12:37 AM
I guess what I am trying to grasp is whether the bombast is Elgar or Solti. Some bombast is fine, but I felt as though Solti had given me a battering.

Sarge, yes, I don't want it as though it is happening under water.

BTW, a few days ago I heard an extract of this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xOlT7s%2BcL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

It sounded terrific and I have just ordered it.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on March 14, 2010, 04:15:43 AM
Quote from: knight on March 14, 2010, 04:12:37 AM
I guess what I am trying to grasp is whether the bombast is Elgar or Solti. Some bombast is fine, but I felt as though Solti had given me a battering.
It's not just Solti.  The Davis/LSO recording I have sounds as if Colonel Blimp is at the helm.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 14, 2010, 04:16:43 AM
 :o
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 14, 2010, 04:23:22 AM
Quote from: knight on March 14, 2010, 04:12:37 AM
I guess what I am trying to grasp is whether the bombast is Elgar or Solti. Some bombast is fine, but I felt as though Solti had given me a battering.

Solti's version is very close to Elgar's own so yeah, it may be the music not the performance. Handley has a reputaton for straight-forward, non-eccentric interpretations. Penguin praises the sound quality, too, and says Downes is more distantly recorded, lessening the impact. But maybe that would be a plus in your case.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 14, 2010, 04:30:19 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 14, 2010, 04:05:25 AM
Can't help, Mike.  I prefer the first, too, and seldom make it all the way through the second, so put off am I by the bombast.  (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

:D ;D :D  ..nice Seinfeld allusion, David.

Elgar's Second is the very definition of hyper-Late Romanticism. To me it's an emotional roller-coaster, akin to Mahler especially in the versions I prefer--which prolong the "agony"  ;D  Definitely one of my favorite symphonies and yes, it a masterpiece of its kind. Not for everyone obviously.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on March 14, 2010, 04:43:12 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 14, 2010, 04:30:19 AM:D ;D :D  ..nice Seinfeld allusion, David.
It's gratifying when I'm not the only one amused by my little jokes.  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 14, 2010, 11:15:21 AM
Sarge, Thanks. I had read that Elgar's own recording was rather reticent and lacking in drama. Anyway, I will get hold of another version. Perhaps it was just the mood I was in as I have known the symphony for many years.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 14, 2010, 11:40:44 AM
Quote from: knight on March 14, 2010, 11:15:21 AM
Sarge, Thanks. I had read that Elgar's own recording was rather reticent and lacking in drama. Anyway, I will get hold of another version. Perhaps it was just the mood I was in as I have known the symphony for many years.

Mike

No one de-bombastifies Elgar like Barbirolli.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nuU6e8ylL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on March 15, 2010, 12:15:54 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 14, 2010, 04:23:22 AM
Solti's version is very close to Elgar's own

This conventional wisdom is questionable. Where did it originate?

You might think the musical connection would be made clear in the August 1972 Gramophone review of the Solti 1st symphony (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/August%201972/47/855198/ELGAR.+Symphony+No.+1+in+A+flat+major%2C+Op.+55.+London+Philharmonic+Orch+estra+conducted+by+Sir+Georg+Solti.+Decca+SXL6569+%28L215%29.), but that review is largely full of high-spoken waffle.

What the reviewer does specifically say about the performance is that no-one after Elgar gave the motto theme sufficient "movement and lift", nor tied the various tempos together with sufficient terseness - the implication is that Solti does do these things, but the reviewer does not actually come out and state this. All other descriptions of the actual performance make the point of how much this differs from Elgar's approach:
QuoteNot that Solti follows Elgar slavishly. It would be easy to point out dozens of divergent points, but the real difference is one of spirit. Elgar's conviction was something born of an intense creative intimacy. Solti's approach is naturally more distant— almost, one might say, more 'sophisticated'. The conviction is less prominently placed.

The legend that Solti speaks for the composer begins here with the reviewer's assertion that:
QuoteIn the April issue (p. 1694) Edward Greenfield contributed a fascinating piece about the sessions which resulted in this new version. And at the basis of Solti's interpretation, he makes clear, is Elgar's own recording. What Mr Greenfield modestly omits to say is that he himself used Elgar's recording to foster Sir Georg's interest in the work.

Now, what exactly is it that Mr. Greenfield actually "made clear"?

The short Gramophone article about the recording session (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/April%201972/34/854013/HANS+WERNER+HENZE) (scroll down), by Edward Greenfield, appearing in the April 1972 issue, is called "SIR GEORGE'S ELGAR". The only evidence here for Elgar's influence on Solti is:
Quote...I suggested at once that he should hear the composer's own recording which so passionately develops on what is contained in the score. Since then World Record Club has reissued that historic recording on LP, and Sold has taken advantage of that. This was plain enough in the Festival Hall performance...
...and he goes on to give no specifics whatsoever, in terms of tempo, rubato, portamento (none in Solti's recording, that I can recall), or dynamics.

For myself, I don't hear much Elgar in Solti's hard-bitten attack on the music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 15, 2010, 03:08:48 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 14, 2010, 03:58:41 AM
Yes, it's true that the 2nd is a finer work. When you agree with that then you know you understand Elgar's music!  ;)

Ah, the ever-helpful Poju!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 15, 2010, 03:09:27 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 14, 2010, 04:00:08 AM
Only the one dollar bill?  Not the twenty?  Or the fifty?  Oh, well...so long as it's not the three, I suppose.  (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

Hah!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 15, 2010, 03:31:09 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on March 15, 2010, 12:15:54 AM
For myself, I don't hear much Elgar in Solti's hard-bitten attack on the music.

You've been talking about Elgar 1 and we're discussing Elgar 2. What Gramophone had to say about Elgar and Solti's Seconds is: "Solti's reading as a whole strikes me as making the closest approach on records to the spirit of Elgar's own (and he has studied the composer's recording, as he says, "very much"). Yet it is no slavish imitation. Solti's eager, driving phraseology, through the big opening statements is more extreme than Elgar's, and almost all his pulses are faster. But they catch Elgar's spirit superbly."

I do hear Elgar in this recording although I don't agree entirely with that quote. For one thing, Solti's overall timing is actually slower than Elgar's in the first movement, and very much slower in the Larghetto (15:30 vs 12:59). The opening of the symphony--speed, phrasing--sounds almost identical. The last two movements are virtual twins as far as timing. To my ears Elgar is as aggressive as Solti (although admittedly Solti's recording sounds fiercer because the inner details are more prominent, reinforcing the rhythmic drive).

Full Gramophone review here (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/June%201975/38/781302/ELGAR.+Symphony+No.+2+in+E+flat+major%2C+Op.+63.+London+Philharmonic+Orchestra+conducted+by+Sir+Georg+sow.+Decca+SXL6723+(%C2%A32.99).+Selected+comparison%3A#header-logo)

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 15, 2010, 03:39:20 AM
Any opinions here on Tate/LSO here?  I've had the GEMIni two-fer of the symphonies for a year or more, but haven't listened to them yet (gosh, I wonder why?)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on March 15, 2010, 03:44:46 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 14, 2010, 11:40:44 AM
No one de-bombastifies Elgar like Barbirolli.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nuU6e8ylL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Thanks for the reminder.  I listened to this 2nd yesterday and enjoyed it very much.  Grace, poetry, dignity, and beauty abound.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 15, 2010, 04:00:54 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 15, 2010, 03:39:20 AM
Any opinions here on Tate/LSO here?  I've had the GEMIni two-fer of the symphonies for a year or more, but haven't listened to them yet (gosh, I wonder why?)

Like Sinopoli, Tate is a polar opposite of Elgar's own interpretation. Timings will tell you much:

Solti    15:28   15:30   7:49   12:33

Elgar  14:33   12:59   7:55   12:20

Tate   19:17   17:21   8:28   17:23

I don't find it a soggy performance though. It's rhythmically vital and the sound of the recording is stunning, especially brass and percussion.


Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 15, 2010, 04:24:10 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 15, 2010, 04:00:54 AM
Like Sinopoli, Tate is a polar opposite of Elgar's own interpretation. Timings will tell you much:

Elgar  14:33   12:59   7:55   12:20

Tate   19:17   17:21   8:28   17:23

I don't find it a soggy performance though. It's rhythmically vital and the sound of the recording is stunning, especially brass and percussion.

Thanks, Sarge.  The 'composer's own' look quite brisk!  I wonder if this is anything like Shostakovich, who was reported to play all his own music on the quick side . . . shy diffidence, perhaps a degree of fear (if he were to let the music 'take its time') that he would lose the audience . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on March 15, 2010, 04:26:33 AM
FWIW, timings for Barbirolli in the recording above and for Davis/LSO live:

Barbirolli  19:19  13:47  8:18  14:16

Davis       18:23  16:19  8:26  14:30
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 15, 2010, 04:36:31 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 15, 2010, 04:24:10 AM
Thanks, Sarge.  The 'composer's own' look quite brisk!  I wonder if this is anything like Shostakovich, who was reported to play all his own music on the quick side . . . shy diffidence, perhaps a degree of fear (if he were to let the music 'take its time') that he would lose the audience . . . .

I wouldn't be surprised if that too were the case with Elgar. I read somewhere that when Elgar conducted, his times in the movements could vary from concert to concert by as much as five minutes, depending on certain factors--his own mental state being one. So Tate (and the other conductors who are much slower than the Elgar recording) may not be "wrong."

Quote from: DavidRoss on March 15, 2010, 04:26:33 AM
Barbirolli  19:19  13:47  8:18  14:16

Thanks for the Barbirolli timings, David. I don't own his Elgar--I should rectify that (I do own the Davis box).

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on March 15, 2010, 04:37:03 AM
Hmm, Davis feels a lot slower than he actually is :-X
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 15, 2010, 04:47:39 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 15, 2010, 04:26:33 AM
FWIW, timings for Barbirolli in the recording above and for Davis/LSO live:

Barbirolli  19:19  13:47  8:18  14:16

Davis       18:23  16:19  8:26  14:30

Interesting, (EMI version),
Boult        17:33  14:18  8:06  13:14
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 15, 2010, 07:37:21 AM
Hmm... ...recent discussion has made me interested about Solti's Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 15, 2010, 08:54:05 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 15, 2010, 07:37:21 AM
Hmm... ...recent discussion has made me interested about Solti's Elgar.

I have a lousy record predicting what you will or won't like but I think Solti's Elgar is worth a listen. I listened to his Second twice today; enjoyed it immensely. The Decca twofer that has 1 & 2, Cockaigne and In the South can be had very cheaply from Amazon sellers. (http://www.amazon.de/gp/offer-listing/B00000425P/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268671578&sr=1-1&condition=new) The Chung/Solti VC is also good...not as "girly" as Hahn's  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 09:01:21 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 15, 2010, 04:36:31 AMThanks for the Barbirolli timings, David. I don't own his Elgar--I should rectify that (I do own the Davis box).

At a bit over 12 pounds for 5 CDs of Elgar/Barbirolli, you can't go far wrong.

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/3679182.jpg)
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/3679182.htm
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 15, 2010, 09:06:56 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 15, 2010, 09:01:21 AM
At a bit over 12 pounds for 5 CDs of Elgar/Barbirolli, you can't go far wrong.

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/3679182.jpg)
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/3679182.htm

Thanks...that looks like just what I need...or rather, want  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 15, 2010, 09:45:45 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 15, 2010, 08:54:05 AM
I have a lousy record predicting what you will or won't like but I think Solti's Elgar is worth a listen. I listened to his Second twice today; enjoyed it immensely. The Decca twofer that has 1 & 2, Cockaigne and In the South can be had very cheaply from Amazon sellers. (http://www.amazon.de/gp/offer-listing/B00000425P/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268671578&sr=1-1&condition=new) The Chung/Solti VC is also good...not as "girly" as Hahn's  ;D

Sarge
Thanks, I was looking myself that set already. In my case UK Amazon might be the cheapest option (6 € postage compared to £1.79). The main problem is my INTENSE collecting of Doctor Who DVDs, something that eats up about half or more of monthly online shopping budget. The other half has gone to Bach, Tangerine Dream etc. (I am having a Bach-period). Elgar needs to wait (there's tons of Elgar on my wish list...)  :'(

Why Doctor Who? Couple of years ago I hardly knew about this British legend. They never showed it on Finish TV until recently when they showed it on pay-channels (scifi channel) that I happen to have. I fell in love with the show instantly. It's my thing! It's CRAZY in a wonderful naive but inventive/bold/funny way. Today I got Dalek War set (Frontier in Space + Planet of the Daleks).  :D

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 15, 2010, 12:32:38 PM
Thanks guys, an interesting set of opinions. I am still dithering, which is very unlike me, I bought my house faster than this!

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on March 15, 2010, 02:25:14 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 14, 2010, 04:30:19 AM
:D ;D :D  ..nice Seinfeld allusion, David.

Elgar's Second is the very definition of hyper-Late Romanticism. To me it's an emotional roller-coaster, akin to Mahler especially in the versions I prefer--which prolong the "agony"  ;D  Definitely one of my favorite symphonies and yes, it a masterpiece of its kind. Not for everyone obviously.

Sarge

     I agree. Though I don't see why it isn't for everyone just because everyone isn't for it. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)

     I guess it raises the same issue I raised elsewhere about kinds of difficulty. There's not just the modernist difficulty to deal with there are also the late Romantics. You have to make allowances for them, too, as well as for oddballs like Bax, Brian, etc who don't slot easily into a modernist teleology.

     For less (but not non) bombast I'd give Boult/Lyrita a try. He takes a more detailed approach than Handley, my all time champ in the 2nd Symphony. If I were to sample a non-Brit approach instinct would lead me to Haitink before Solti.

     Elgar lovers owe it to themselves to get the Boult/EMI choral music box set.

     (http://pixhost.ws/avaxhome/90/b5/000cb590_medium.jpeg)

The Music Makers, Op.69
Janet Baker, mezzo-soprano
London Philharmonic Choir
(chorus master: Frederic Jackson)
London Philharmonic Orchestra
dir. Sir Adrian Boult
Recorded: 21-23.XII.1966, No.1 Studio, Abbey Road, London

The Dream of Gerontius, Op.38
Helen Watts (mezzo-soprano) ... The Angel
Nicolai Gedda (tenor) ... Gerontius / Soul of Gerontius
Robert Lloyd (bass) ... The Priest / The Angel of the Agony
John Alldis Choir
London Philharmonic Choir
(chorus master: John Alldis)
New Philharmonia Orchestra
dir. Sir Adrian Boult
Recorded: 18.V & 18, 21, 24, 27 & 31.VII.1975, Kingsway Hall, London

The Apostles
Sheila Armstrong (soprano) ... The Blessed Virgin / The Angel
Robert Tear (tenor) ... St John
Benjamin Luxon (bass) ... St Peter
Clifford Grant (bass) ... Judas
John Carol Case (bass) ... Jesus
Choir of Downe House School
(director of music: Dorothy Dickinson)
London Philharmonic Choir
(chorus master: John Alldis)
London Philharmonic Orchestra
dir. Sir Adrian Boult
Recorded: 23, 29 & 30.X, 5 & 7.XI and 20 & 31.XII.1973 and 2.VII.1974, Kingsway Hall, London

The Apostles & The Kingdom: An illustrated introduction by Sir Adrian Boult
(Elgar's use of leitmotiv)
Script by Michael Kennedy and Sir Adrian Boult

Excerpts from The Apostles, The Kingdom and The Light of Life conducted by Sir Adrian Boult
Excerpts from The Dreams of Gerontius conducted by Sir John Barbirolli
Recorded: 24.VI.1974, Abbey Road Studios, London

The Kingdom, Op.51
Margaret Price (soprano) ... The Blessed Virgin
Yvonne Minton (contralto) ... Mary Magdalene
Alexander Young (tenor) ... St John
John Shirley-Quirk (bass) ... St Peter
London Philharmonic Choir
(chorus master: John Alldis)
London Philharmonic Orchestra
dir. Sir Adrian Boult
Recorded: 16-18 & 20-22.XII.1968, Kingsway Hall, London

Coronation Ode, Op.44
Felicity Lott (soprano), Alfreda Hodgson (contralto),
Richard Morton (tenor), Stephen Roberts (bass)
Cambridge University Musical Society Chorus
Choir of King's College, Cambridge New Philharmonia Orchestra
Band of the Royal Military School of Music, Kneller Hall
dir. Philip Ledger
Recorded: 7 & 8.II.1977, Chapel of King's College, Cambridge

     
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on March 15, 2010, 07:23:29 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 15, 2010, 03:39:20 AM
Any opinions here on Tate/LSO here?  I've had the GEMIni two-fer of the symphonies for a year or more, but haven't listened to them yet (gosh, I wonder why?)
You owe yourself a listen.
That's my only recording of the Symphonies.  By happenstance, I played Symphony 1 last night, and it's been so long since I've played it, it was like hearing a brand new work all over--and impressed me.  I will be playing it a good deal more often than I have been.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 15, 2010, 10:59:07 PM
I have ordered the Tate as being at the opposite poll to Solti. The deal includes No 1. I hope it will enable me to fall for that second symphomy all over again. Now of course if it sounds boring.............

I wonder what Tate is up to these days? I have not scoured the European concert schedules, but I have not seen any discs from him for quite some time.

MIke
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 16, 2010, 03:03:47 AM
Quote from: Lethe on March 15, 2010, 04:37:03 AM
Hmm, Davis feels a lot slower than he actually is :-X

And in the First Symphony he is actually slow--which when combined with the feeling that he's actually slower than he actually is, actually makes him dead in the water  ;D  :D

Seriously, even I (with my near fetish for slow tempos) find Davis just too slow in that performance.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 16, 2010, 04:16:49 AM
Quote from: knight on March 15, 2010, 10:59:07 PM
I wonder what Tate is up to these days? I have not scoured the European concert schedules, but I have not seen any discs from him for quite some time.
MIke

Yes, Tate is another conductor who seems to have dropped off the map after an impressive recording career in the 80s and early 90s. He was a favorite of mine: his Elgar, Haydn symphonies, the Mozart PC cycle with Uchida, Arabella with Te Kanawa. Wiki says: "He was principal conductor of the Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra from 1991 to 1995. In 2005, he was appointed music director of the San Carlo Theatre of Naples. In October 2007, the Hamburg Symphony Orchestra announced the appointment of Tate as its next chief conductor, as of the spring of 2008." What was he up to between 1995 and 2005?

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 16, 2010, 04:25:17 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 16, 2010, 04:16:49 AM
Yes, Tate is another conductor who seems to have dropped off the map after an impressive recording career in the 80s and early 90s. He was a favorite of mine: his Elgar, Haydn symphonies, the Mozart PC cycle with Uchida, Arabella with Te Kanawa. Wiki says: "He was principal conductor of the Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra from 1991 to 1995. In 2005, he was appointed music director of the San Carlo Theatre of Naples. In October 2007, the Hamburg Symphony Orchestra announced the appointment of Tate as its next chief conductor, as of the spring of 2008." What was he up to between 1995 and 2005?

Sarge

Perhaps these will help:
http://www.cami.com/worddocs/worddocs490/Biography_Tate.pdf
http://www.naxos.com/conductorinfo/jeffrey_tate/32015.htm
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 16, 2010, 04:31:14 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on March 16, 2010, 04:25:17 AM
Perhaps these will help:

They do. It appears he was working primarily in Italy in the late 90s and on into the new century, and guest conducting elsewhere.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 16, 2010, 05:12:45 AM
According to that first biog, I must be living the life of a deaf hermit to have managed to avoid him for any two week period in the last 20 years. The Naxos piece felt more genuinely informative. Good to know he is still productive and clearly well thought of. I had assumed he was held back by ill health.

I listened to the clips of his Elgar set, liked what I heard. So I am looking forward to the postman calling.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2010, 08:09:21 AM
Quote from: knight on March 16, 2010, 05:12:45 AM
I listened to the clips of his Elgar set, liked what I heard. So I am looking forward to the postman calling.
Mike

I hope you like the Tate performances, Mike.

Scarpia, David, the Barbirolli Elgar box I ordered Monday arrived today. I already had a CD containing the Du Pré Cello Concerto and Baker's Sea Pictures (who doesn't?) and Falstaff and Enigma, but the symphonies, overtures, marches and shorter works are new to my collection.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 17, 2010, 08:23:27 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2010, 08:09:21 AM
I hope you like the Tate performances, Mike.

Scarpia, David, the Barbirolli Elgar box I ordered Monday arrived today. I already had a CD containing the Du Pré Cello Concerto and Baker's Sea Pictures (who doesn't?) and Falstaff and Enigma, but the symphonies, overtures, marches and shorter works are new to my collection.

Sarge

The symphonies are the only ones I have from that set.  Superb.  I hope you're up for some world-class Barbirolli grunting.   :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on March 17, 2010, 08:34:53 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2010, 08:09:21 AMScarpia, David, the Barbirolli Elgar box I ordered Monday arrived today. I already had a CD containing the Du Pré Cello Concerto and Baker's Sea Pictures (who doesn't?) and Falstaff and Enigma, but the symphonies, overtures, marches and shorter works are new to my collection.
Sarge, in addition to the symphonies and the terrific Cello Cto (my second favorite after Tortelier), that box includes the terrific works for strings:  Sospiri, Elegy, Intro & Allegro, and the Serenade.  Enjoy!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 17, 2010, 08:41:34 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 17, 2010, 08:34:53 AMthat box includes the terrific works for strings:  Sospiri, Elegy, Intro & Allegro, and the Serenade.  Enjoy!

Yes, from this famous collection, which also includes the best Vaughan Williams Tallis Fantasie ever recorded (IMO).

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/apr00/elgar-VW.jpg)


Now the question, what is the best "Dream of Gerontius" available in good sound?  I am attracted to the idea of the Barbirolli recording, but for I fear the engineering may not be up to the challenge.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 17, 2010, 09:05:54 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 17, 2010, 08:41:34 AMNow the question, what is the best "Dream of Gerontius" available in good sound?  I am attracted to the idea of the Barbirolli recording, but for I fear the engineering may not be up to the challenge.

The sound quality of the Barbirolli recording is okay but only okay. Mark Elder's Gerontius on Hallé label is probably the best Gerontius with high sound quality but I haven't heard it yet.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on March 17, 2010, 09:07:51 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 17, 2010, 08:41:34 AM
Now the question, what is the best "Dream of Gerontius" available in good sound?  I am attracted to the idea of the Barbirolli recording, but for I fear the engineering may not be up to the challenge.
Beats me.  The only recording I have is Barbirolli's with Janet Baker.  The sound is not the issue for me, nor the performance.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2010, 09:12:13 AM
I can't help either. I own Boult and Britten. But I am a fan of Baker so the Barbirolli recording is probably in my future.

Quote from: 71 dB on March 17, 2010, 09:05:54 AM
The sound quality of the Barbirolli recording is okay but only okay. Mark Elder's Gerontius on Hallé label is probably the best Gerontius with high sound quality but I haven't heard it yet.

Another version with reputedly excellent sound is Hickox on Chandos.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 17, 2010, 09:28:53 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2010, 09:12:13 AM
I can't help either. I own Boult and Britten. But I am a fan of Baker so the Barbirolli recording is probably in my future.


Another version with reputedly excellent sound is Hickox on Chandos.

Sarge

Hickox is on the radar, certainly.  Anyone have experience with the LSO live recording with Colin Davis?

Also, what of Elgar's 3rd, again, there's Hickox.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 17, 2010, 09:39:22 AM
I love the Barbirolli Gerontius and it can be had for the price of a bottle of wine. Even if the sound is a little constricted, it is worth it for the performance and Baker has never been bettered as the Angel. The chorus is well drilled and the sound is quite forward, no blurring from a recessed sound picture.

However, with Elder you would be in for a treat. Here is a link to my review.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10121.msg254182.html#msg254182

Buy both!

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 17, 2010, 09:51:36 AM
Quote from: knight on March 17, 2010, 09:39:22 AM
I love the Barbirolli Gerontius and it can be had for the price of a bottle of wine. Even if the sound is a little constricted, it is worth it for the performance and Baker has never been bettered as the Angel. The chorus is well drilled and the sound is quite forward, no blurring from a recessed sound picture.

However, with Elder you would be in for a treat. Here is a link to my review.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10121.msg254182.html#msg254182

Buy both!

Mike

A bottle of wine?  Not a well defined definition of cost.  But I think I will start with the Barbirolli and go from there.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2010, 09:53:54 AM
Quote from: knight on March 17, 2010, 09:39:22 AM
Buy both!

Okay, okay...I will  ;D  They're both in stock at JPC and the price of the Elder has been reduced to €17.99...nice.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 17, 2010, 10:00:07 AM
I was thinking of a supermarket basic bottle. Amazon UK are selling the Gerontius with The Music Makers for £6.93.

BTW, I have that wonderful Barbirolli English String Music disc, perfection and therefore very satisfying.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 17, 2010, 11:10:13 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2010, 09:12:13 AM
Another version with reputedly excellent sound is Hickox on Chandos.

Sarge

I have these Hickox releases:

- The Light of Life
- Caractacus/Severn Suite

Both are very good imo.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 17, 2010, 11:24:53 AM
Quote from: knight on March 17, 2010, 10:00:07 AM
I was thinking of a supermarket basic bottle. Amazon UK are selling the Gerontius with The Music Makers for £6.93.

BTW, I have that wonderful Barbirolli English String Music disc, perfection and therefore very satisfying.

Mike

Ok, have the Barbirolli on order.  Put off any others until I determine if I can stand the piece at all.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on March 17, 2010, 12:13:47 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 17, 2010, 11:24:53 AM
Ok, have the Barbirolli on order.  Put off any others until I determine if I can stand the piece at all.
I keep trying.   ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 17, 2010, 12:17:02 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 17, 2010, 11:24:53 AM
Ok, have the Barbirolli on order.  Put off any others until I determine if I can stand the piece at all.

I will be interested to read what you think. It does tend to move people or bring them out in hives.

My very first choral performance was in Gerontius with Alexander Gibson, Robert Tear and Alfreda Hodgson. That was a London Prom.

Despite all the singing and the soloists and the excitement of the occasion, it was Gibson's way with the two preludes that really moved me. He was very much a hit or miss conductor, that night was one of his best.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on March 17, 2010, 02:42:25 PM
     The Barbirolli was remastered in the '90s. These are both the remastered version, and I find the sound is good for the era:

     (http://www.esounds.com/esounds/img/packshots/0094639197828-lf.jpg)

     (http://img.maniadb.com/images/album/166/166600_1_f.jpg) 

         
     The GROC is coupled with Boult's recording of The Music Makers, which makes it a first choice, especially since Janet Baker sings in this one, too. The picture-in-picture on the GROC cover shows the LP, I think. The CD box with that cover is the original digital master which you should avoid.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on March 17, 2010, 08:29:42 PM
I have both the Barbirolli (in the GROC incarnation) and the Elder. Overall, I prefer the Elder because of the modern sound; musicality ends up being roughly even.   I just noticed one oddity: Elder's version, going by the timings on the back of the CD covers, is roughly 10 minutes longer. (More precisely, his Part I is 11 1/2 minutes longer, while his Part II is 1 1/2-2 minutes shorter.)  And BTW, Barbirolli's orchestra was also the Halle.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2010, 06:25:39 AM
Quote from: drogulus on March 17, 2010, 02:42:25 PM
     (http://www.esounds.com/esounds/img/packshots/0094639197828-lf.jpg)
     (http://img.maniadb.com/images/album/166/166600_1_f.jpg) 

Thanks for the info. I bought the non-GROC. Three reasons: it was in stock at JPC (GROC wasn't); it's cheaper; and I already have the Boult/Baker/Music Makers (it was included in the EMI choral box). Both Elder and Barbirolli arrived today. Sarge is a happy camper.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 19, 2010, 07:24:32 AM
All is now gas & gaiters!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 19, 2010, 07:45:01 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2010, 06:25:39 AM
Thanks for the info. I bought the non-GROC. Three reasons: it was in stock at JPC (GROC wasn't); it's cheaper; and I already have the Boult/Baker/Music Makers (it was included in the EMI choral box). Both Elder and Barbirolli arrived today. Sarge is a happy camper.

I've put off this purchase due to version uncertainty.  What is the remastering date for the non-GROC version that you have?  (I'm wondering if it is the same as the GROC or the same as the original issue.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2010, 08:06:51 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 19, 2010, 07:45:01 AM
I've put off this purchase due to version uncertainty.  What is the remastering date for the non-GROC version that you have?  (I'm wondering if it is the same as the GROC or the same as the original issue.)

My non-GROC version says, "Newly digitally remastered at Abbey Road Studios, 1999."

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 19, 2010, 08:17:10 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2010, 08:06:51 AM
My non-GROC version says, "Newly digitally remastered at Abbey Road Studios, 1999."

Sarge

I see, that makes things complicated.  After poking around the EMI web site I discovered that this information is there of you know where to look (under "track listings").  The GROC is a 2007 remaster, the one you have is 1999, and the original box is 1989.  My experience is any EMI master before 1990 is far from optimum, but I don't imagine there is an enormous difference between 1999 and 2007.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 19, 2010, 08:27:20 AM
The Tate Elgar Symphonies have arrived. I am glad that Sarge convinced me of the value of Tate's approach. The second is now restored to me. I am puzzled at the considerable added timing Tate conjours; as it does not feel one moment overlong. He allows the music to breath as against Solti's driven reading. Tate's journey is much more to my liking and having just listened to it, I am about to replay it.

At some point I will get to Symphony Number 1, but no urgency.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 19, 2010, 08:37:42 AM
Dig it!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 19, 2010, 08:40:58 AM
What of Payne's completion of the Symphony No. 3?  I've had the Hickox recording in my shopping cart for a while.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2010, 08:50:35 AM
Quote from: knight on March 19, 2010, 08:27:20 AM
Tate's journey is much more to my liking and having just listened to it, I am about to replay it.
Mike

I'm pleased you're enjoying it. And I can breathe easier now...  ;)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 19, 2010, 07:24:32 AM
All is now gas & gaiters!

It would be if only they'd delivered my bottled lightning and thunder sandwich too  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 19, 2010, 08:52:12 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2010, 08:50:35 AM
I'm pleased you're enjoying it. And I can breathe easier now...  ;)

I do need to listen to mine, at last . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2010, 08:56:36 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 19, 2010, 08:40:58 AM
What of Payne's completion of the Symphony No. 3?  I've had the Hickox recording in my shopping cart for a while.

I've only heard it a couple of times, and not recently (own Davis/LSO and Daniel/Bournemouth). If the composer is important to you I think it's worth hearing, in fact, demands to be heard just like Mahler 10. I enjoy it that way: with the realization that it isn't the composer pure but better than nothing.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2010, 08:59:03 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 19, 2010, 08:52:12 AM
I do need to listen to mine, at last . . . .

How about on that long car ride from Boston? No, on second thought a car's environment is not ideal for late Romantic symphonies.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 19, 2010, 09:01:22 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2010, 08:59:03 AM
How about on that long car ride from Boston? No, on second thought a car's environment is not ideal for late Romantic symphonies.

No, the environment wouldn't do justice to the music . . . and the music isn't what I'm looking for driving home for a bit more than an hour, late in the evening.

The Tate must wate until the other side of the Passion this weekend.  But next week, for certain!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on March 19, 2010, 09:08:43 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2010, 08:50:35 AMIt would be if only they'd delivered my bottled lightning and thunder sandwich too  ;D

Vegemite?  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on March 19, 2010, 01:25:20 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 19, 2010, 08:17:10 AM
I see, that makes things complicated.  After poking around the EMI web site I discovered that this information is there of you know where to look (under "track listings").  The GROC is a 2007 remaster, the one you have is 1999, and the original box is 1989.  My experience is any EMI master before 1990 is far from optimum, but I don't imagine there is an enormous difference between 1999 and 2007.

     I don't trust this information. "Remaster" can be ambiguous. They may have made some adjustment to the levels, or simply made a new digital copy. The Music Makers may not have been remastered either.

     The earlier TMM CD, coupled with Boult's 1975 Gerontius, was very hot (94.5 on my hot-o-meter, which is insane for classical music). I had to take it down 5 dB in Audacity (converting to 24 bit first) so it would play properly on non-Replaygain-able devices. And when I got the Boult box with TMM it was identical. If TMM is very loud on the GROC they didn't remaster it in any important sense because they didn't fix it. If it's normal sounding they did remaster it in a useful way.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 19, 2010, 03:59:53 PM
So EMI has made a hash of it, have they.  Well, I'm afraid I'm out of the market for Gerontius.  I have my choice between ham-handed remasterings and paying a king's ransom for a modern recording.  I have this feeling I'm going to hate the piece anyway.   >:(
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 19, 2010, 10:52:12 PM
I can't help feeling you are making heavy weather of this. It is not a heart transplant. No doubt you are using a different site, but the Elder sells on Amazon UK for £14, the ransom for a very insignificant king.

Mike

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on March 20, 2010, 02:00:39 AM
Began listening to Barbirolli's Dream late last night but barely made it through the prelude before nodding off--not the music's fault.  I thought it lovely and plan to repeat the attempt if I survive this bout of heartburn!  (Too many jalapeños, too much salsa, and then too much ice cream.) 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 20, 2010, 04:51:49 PM
Quote from: knight on March 19, 2010, 10:52:12 PM
I can't help feeling you are making heavy weather of this. It is not a heart transplant. No doubt you are using a different site, but the Elder sells on Amazon UK for £14, the ransom for a very insignificant king.

Mike

Ok, Barbirolli, GROC version it is. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 20, 2010, 10:43:42 PM
Excellent, of course I can't guarantee you will enjoy the experience, but you will not be indifferent.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on March 21, 2010, 07:19:26 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 20, 2010, 04:51:49 PM
Ok, Barbirolli, GROC version it is. 

      Baker get most of the attention and it's entirely justified. Yet I think Richard Lewis has impressed me the most, and he makes other singers sound like they are singing a part while he is inhabiting a personality. Actually both Baker and Lewis have the ability to sing beautifully while creating characters, to speak meaningfully and sing at the same time.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 21, 2010, 08:14:00 AM
Actually, it is remarkable how little Elgar I have actually heard.  I think my entire Elgar listening experience up to yesterday has been the recordings of the second symphony by Barbirolli, and the pieces on Barbirolli's "English String Music" collection (the Introduction and Allegro, and Sospiri and Elegie were added to the CD release).   The second symphony recording impressed mightily, when I heard is quite a few years ago. 

Yesterday I listened to Barbirolli's recording of the 1st symphony.  The first time through it left a blank impression, but after listening for a second time today I am starting to appreciate it more (which is a good sign).  Still, it seems that the parts that come off best are the stereotypical Elgar, the "Land of Hope and Glory-like" march theme that opens it, and the splendidly majestic restatement of it that ends the symphony.  There's also a wonderful elegiac theme in the slow movement that is first heard about 2 or 3 minutes in and parts of the Scherzo are quite striking.  But I find that what he does best is "pomp." 

I have two other recordings of the 1st symphony on the shelf, which I briefly sampled in the close of the finale, Solti/LP and Haitink/P.   My superficial impression is that Solti seems to frenetic and misses the majesty of it and Haitink lacks the "affection" that Barbirolli brings to the score.  It doesn't help that EMI gives Haitink audio engineering that seems clearly inferior to Barbirolli's, even though it was recorded in 1984 rather than 1962.  The 80's were a bad decade for EMI.   But a performance recorded in really first rate sound would be nice, given the richness and complexity of the orchestration here.  Perhaps the Andrew Davis on Teldec (I always like Teldec sound, but Andrew Davis is a bit of an unknown) or Hickox's recordings of Chandos?  Colin Davis on LSO Live?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on March 21, 2010, 08:30:42 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 21, 2010, 08:14:00 AMActually, it is remarkable how little Elgar I have actually heard.  I think my entire Elgar listening experience up to yesterday has been the recordings of the second symphony by Barbirolli, and the pieces on Barbirolli's "English String Music" collection (the Introduction and Allegro, and Sospiri and Elegie were added to the CD release).   The second symphony recording impressed mightily, when I heard is quite a few years ago.
Then you are in for some treats.  Though I do not believe it is entirely successful, Elgars' Dream offers much beauty and none of the jingoism many of us find difficult to take in some of Elgar's work.

Run, don't walk, to acquaint yourself with his cello concerto--for my money the finest piece of its kind in the entire repertoire.  Barbirolli's famed recording with DuPre is the standard rec, and the CD coupled with Janet Baker's Sea Songs is terrific, though for the cto I'm partial to Tortelier/Boult.  Also worth knowing is the violin cto.  You'll not go wrong with either of Kennedy's discs, and though Hahn's new one is not to everyone's taste, it has the virtue of being coupled with an extraordinary RVW Lark Ascending.  And if you're a fan of WW5tets, he wrote a number of dandy ones recorded by the Athena Ensemble for Chandos.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 21, 2010, 09:20:17 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 21, 2010, 08:30:42 AMRun, don't walk, to acquaint yourself with his cello concerto--for my money the finest piece of its kind in the entire repertoire.  Barbirolli's famed recording with DuPre is the standard rec, and the CD coupled with Janet Baker's Sea Songs is terrific, though for the cto I'm partial to Tortelier/Boult.  Also worth knowing is the violin cto.  You'll not go wrong with either of Kennedy's discs, and though Hahn's new one is not to everyone's taste, it has the virtue of being coupled with an extraordinary RVW Lark Ascending.  And if you're a fan of WW5tets, he wrote a number of dandy ones recorded by the Athena Ensemble for Chandos.

I am lacking time rather than the discs.  I have the du Pre concerto recording, the Kennedy concerto recording with Handley as well as recordings the String Quartet, Piano Quintet, the Pomp and Circumstance Marches and the Enigma Variations.   I am a fan of woodwind quintets, but am drawn to the obtuse ones, like the Nielsen.  In samples at least, the Elgar wood wind quintets sound insufferably chipper. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 21, 2010, 09:30:50 AM
Jingoism in Elgar's music is a misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 21, 2010, 09:41:21 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 21, 2010, 09:20:17 AMIn samples at least, the Elgar wood wind quintets sound insufferably chipper.

To be honest, Elgar's music for wood wind quintet is among his weakest output, works of a youngster learning how to compose in 1878-79. It's sympathetic Mozartian music with charm but nevertheless light years from the masterpieces Elgar produced later.

Elgar's String Quartet and Piano Quintet are very overlooked. I don't know why.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 21, 2010, 11:14:37 AM
I have the 1st Sym. with Colin Davis and the LSO. The first movement with its big tune is simply too slow. Overall the timing of the movement is not out of the way, but that famous marching melody is in stasis. Apart from that there is a lot to enjoy, especially the fiery final movement, the playing of the orchestra is especially good.

Modern engineering and an excellent performance: Elder with Barbirolli's old orchestra. It is paired with the overture, 'In th South'.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on March 21, 2010, 11:18:55 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 21, 2010, 09:30:50 AM
Jingoism in Elgar's music is a misunderstanding.

      Wellllllll.....not entirely. It's there in the texts. The unfortunate thing in my view is that we now have an association of the sound of Elgar with the sentiments of some of his ceremonial and nationalistic works. Whether you see this as unfair or inevitable or whatever it plainly ruins his music for some listeners. Or, to correct the balance just a bit, ruins some listeners for his music, those who are so politics-ridden that it never occurs to them to just enjoy the damn music and leave politics out for a little while. If I can prize The Dream of Gerontius above almost any Elgar save the 2nd Symphony it ought to be possible for anyone to do the same. Yet this is not the case. Politics is a harsh mistress, I guess.

     On the bright side (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/tongue.gif), the twinning of Elgar's subjects with the sound of his music is a measure of his genius. A less gifted composer could not have invented the sound of an entire worldview as seen in retrospect, whether this sound has ruinous implications or not for Elgar's legacy with some listeners.

     This article from (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/img/global/tol-logo.gif) discusses the imperialism issue and how it hurts the poor heads of the modern British music lover:

     The true story of Edward Elgar, the man who gave us hope and glory. (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article1825403.ece)

     Ya gotta love this:

     Elgar was an imperialist with a conviction in the unique destiny of the British Empire. But, rather like Wagner's antiSemitism, this element of Elgar's make-up has long been swept under the carpet by both critics and acolytes. This is misguided, since an appreciation of Elgar's imperialism allows for a far richer understanding of his work.

      We're supposed to analogize Elgarian (uh, sorry..) national feeling to Wagnerian antisemitism. On whose say-so? Without any supporting argument, not even in passing? Then the reviewer does a neat "and yet" pirouette! First the mugging, then the even-handed appraisal. Pretty slick, eh?

     It's probably time to let the issue rest. Elgar will be back, because attitudes die out along with those who plague us with them. Then we can rearm and conquer the world, banners flying and a jingoistic song in our hearts. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/angel.gif)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 21, 2010, 11:45:28 AM
Quote from: knight on March 21, 2010, 11:14:37 AM
I have the 1st Sym. with Davis and the LSO. The first movement with its big tune is simply too slow. Overall the timing of the movement is not out of the way, but that famous marching melody is in stasis. Apart from that there is a lot to enjoy, especially the fiery final movement, the playing of the orchestra is especially good.

Modern engineering and an excellent performance: Elder with Barbirolli's old orchestra. It is paired with the overture, 'In th South'.

Mike

Thanks for you comments.  I am currently leaning towards this set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YZESEPQ6L._SS400_.jpg)

It sounds awesome in the excerpts, and I found a marketplace seller on amazon.co.uk selling a used copy for 8 pounds, plus 3 pounds shipping.  Since the Land Of Hope and Glory's currency has slipped a bit lately, this amounts to 16 bucks for so for 5 discs.   :D :(
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 21, 2010, 11:47:55 AM
Sounds like a great deal. I don't know those recordings, but Andrew Davis is usually more than a safe pair of hands.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on March 21, 2010, 01:14:34 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 21, 2010, 09:20:17 AMI am a fan of woodwind quintets, but am drawn to the obtuse ones, like the Nielsen.  In samples at least, the Elgar wood wind quintets sound insufferably chipper.
Nielsen's WW5tet is great and in a class with Milhaud, Ibert, Fine, Carter, and others.  Elgar's have no pretensions to greatness, but are chipper, indeed, intended for home & civic music making of the sort that once thrived (and still does, in some places) before commercial recordings made music a into a commodity for passive audiences rather than active participants.  They are delightful examples of their type.

Addendum re. the Enigma Variations:  Bernstein's with the BBC are special.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 22, 2010, 08:24:43 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 21, 2010, 01:14:34 PM
Nielsen's WW5tet is great and in a class with Milhaud, Ibert, Fine, Carter, and others.
I haven't heard those of Milhaud, Ibert, Fine, Carter but Nielsen's is great! Unfortunately I don't have any recording of it. I have only heard it few times on radio and once on TV.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 22, 2010, 09:09:55 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 14, 2010, 03:58:41 AM
Yes, it's true that the 2nd is a finer work. When you agree with that then you know you understand Elgar's music!

Ouch. And I thought that after 40+ years of listening to his music that I was starting to understand him. Drat!

I have no way of knowing which is the finer; I only know that I love the first with a deep passion, but can only cope with the second under certain conditions of mood; and even then I tend to lose my way. It's a much tougher ride for me. But the slow movement surely is deeply moving, and I can't relate to these comments about 'bombast' that keep coming up. I don't hear much bombast in Elgar (except in a very few obvious places) and certainly I've never heard any in the second symphony. On the contrary, my overwhelming impression is often of the struggles of a noble but wounded animal. I don't think bombast is the right word. It's more nuanced than that: words like noble, majestic, chivalric come closer, I think. There's no swagger or bluster anywhere that I can hear, in the major works. The nobility rides on the back of a vulnerability that is never very far beneath the surface. (The violin concerto presents an agonising dialogue between that nobility, and that vulnerability.)

Fancy coming back and finding all this Elgar chat that I'd missed. (I've been away in dark places not of my choosing, alas.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 22, 2010, 09:19:43 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 21, 2010, 09:41:21 AM
Elgar's String Quartet and Piano Quintet are very overlooked. I don't know why.

They're both very good pieces I think, products of the reflective late period that also produced the Cello Concerto. The Piano 5tet sounds to me like his most Brahmsian work (which is a good thing).

Quote from: drogulus on March 21, 2010, 11:18:55 AM
      Wellllllll.....not entirely. It's there in the texts. The unfortunate thing in my view is that we now have an association of the sound of Elgar with the sentiments of some of his ceremonial and nationalistic works. Whether you see this as unfair or inevitable or whatever it plainly ruins his music for some listeners.

I find this unfair. I've never met anyone who rejects Beethoven in his totality because of his Cantata on the Elevation of Leopold II to the Imperial Dignity, or Brahms because of his Triumphlied (a bombastic celebration of German unification), or Tchaikovsky because of the 1812 Overture or Marche slave. Yet somehow the nationalistic bombast that was part & parcel of European life in the 19th century sticks to Elgar more strongly than to those other composers.

Re: the Symphonies

I have to admit that I like Solti very much here - he applies the hand of discipline, and the music comes off sounding almost as coherent as a Brahms symphony. I had the A. Davis but found them too slow and lacking in vitality. I also had the Barbirolli (normally a conductor I love in British music) and found that he wallowed in the music a bit too much.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 22, 2010, 09:22:14 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 19, 2010, 05:09:04 AM
Hahn's recording of the Opus 61, while certainly a pleasant enough listen, is a bit too girly and light of tread.
This is a really interesting comment that I missed on my last visit! Is it girly, or is it just feminine? The reason I ask is because I believe there's an essential 'feminine' essence at play in the violin concerto, most notably in the Windflower themes. It's for this reason that I find, say, the two Kennedy recordings unsatisfactory. Kennedy's approach is too spectacular for me, and never do I hear that delicate hint of the feminine in the right moments. Elgar never spelt out exactly whose soul was enshrined therein, but we know Alice Stuart-Wortley had a lot to do with it, and we know that Elgar was constantly torn by yearnings towards certain aspects of the feminine that he could never somehow grasp. And here in the vc he is really tackling it head-on.

From what you say, Karl, it sounds as though Ms Hahn's approach, for all that it carries some aspects of the feminine with it, doesn't seriously come to grips with the really quite profound issues that are being worked out, but it makes me curious to hear what such a girly approach might sound like..... Maybe I need to buy one and find out.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 22, 2010, 09:40:23 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 22, 2010, 09:09:55 AM
Ouch. And I thought that after 40+ years of listening to his music that I was starting to understand him. Drat!

Well, your 40+ years is much more than my 12 or so.  ;) Maybe I am wrong about everything? Maybe that explains why so few agrees with me about most things?

Quote from: Elgarian on March 22, 2010, 09:09:55 AMI have no way of knowing which is the finer;  I only know that I love the first with a deep passion, but can only cope with the second under certain conditions of mood; and even then I tend to lose my way. It's a much tougher ride for me. But the slow movement surely is deeply moving,

Both of them are so great in my opinion that it doesn't make much difference which one is finer. The first has better first movement but the finale of the second is Elgar at his best. The slow movements are very equal imo. The second is more difficult for the listener but that is not to take against the music. Challenging art is good for us. 

Quote from: Elgarian on March 22, 2010, 09:09:55 AMand I can't relate to these comments about 'bombast' that keep coming up. I don't hear much bombast in Elgar (except in a very few obvious places) and certainly I've never heard any in the second symphony. On the contrary, my overwhelming impression is often of the struggles of a noble but wounded animal. I don't think bombast is the right word. It's more nuanced than that: words like noble, majestic, chivalric come closer, I think. There's no swagger or bluster anywhere that I can hear, in the major works. The nobility rides on the back of a vulnerability that is never very far beneath the surface. (The violin concerto presents an agonising dialogue between that nobility, and that vulnerability.)

Here I agree with you very much. I love the way Elgar's music sounds, bombastic or not. In Elgar's music I find every feeling and side in balance enriching each other. The is no darkness without light and vice versa. No one understood this as well as Elgar. It's wonderful how Elgar sounds strong, vulnerable, sad joyful, old and young at the same time! Elgar's music is a human life from cradle to grave made into music, not 15 minutes of someones life.

Quote from: Elgarian on March 22, 2010, 09:09:55 AMFancy coming back and finding all this Elgar chat that I'd missed. (I've been away in dark places not of my choosing, alas.)

Welcome back!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 22, 2010, 09:58:03 AM
Quote from: Velimir on March 22, 2010, 09:19:43 AM
I find this unfair. I've never met anyone who rejects Beethoven in his totality because of his Cantata on the Elevation of Leopold II to the Imperial Dignity, or Brahms because of his Triumphlied (a bombastic celebration of German unification), or Tchaikovsky because of the 1812 Overture or Marche slave. Yet somehow the nationalistic bombast that was part & parcel of European life in the 19th century sticks to Elgar more strongly than to those other composers.

You demonstrated well what I have always felt. The most "established" composers (Beethoven, Brahms etc.) are forgiven more easily than other composers. I want all composers to be treated equally. There are odd preconceptions in the world of classical music. Beethoven had to earn my respect just as much as Dittersdorf or Rosenmüller had to.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 22, 2010, 10:43:54 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 22, 2010, 09:58:03 AM
I can see them clearly because I haven't been "brainwashed" in a music school.

Thank goodness we have your unimpeded brilliance in this forum, Poju.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 22, 2010, 10:49:31 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 22, 2010, 09:22:14 AM
This is a really interesting comment that I missed on my last visit! Is it girly, or is it just feminine? The reason I ask is because I believe there's an essential 'feminine' essence at play in the violin concerto, most notably in the Windflower themes. It's for this reason that I find, say, the two Kennedy recordings unsatisfactory. Kennedy's approach is too spectacular for me, and never do I hear that delicate hint of the feminine in the right moments. Elgar never spelt out exactly whose soul was enshrined therein, but we know Alice Stuart-Wortley had a lot to do with it, and we know that Elgar was constantly torn by yearnings towards certain aspects of the feminine that he could never somehow grasp. And here in the vc he is really tackling it head-on.

From what you say, Karl, it sounds as though Ms Hahn's approach, for all that it carries some aspects of the feminine with it, doesn't seriously come to grips with the really quite profound issues that are being worked out, but it makes me curious to hear what such a girly approach might sound like..... Maybe I need to buy one and find out.

Welcome back, Alan!  IIRC, it was Znajder's live performance which was fresher in my ear at the time I revisited la Hahn.  It's a while since I gave the Nige a spin . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 22, 2010, 11:11:48 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 22, 2010, 09:58:03 AMI can see them clearly because I haven't been "brainwashed" in a music school.

I must say the association of Elgar with this sort of self-aggrandizing drivel is enough to put me off the composers works.    Yes, I can see your brain has never been washed.  It is like that recycling bin that David Ross said he needs to scrub out.  ::)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on March 22, 2010, 11:54:24 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 22, 2010, 09:40:23 AMMaybe I am wrong about everything?
Bingo!

All this "talk" about Elgar suddenly has me hungering to hear what for me is unquestionably his greatest work, the cello concerto--which I also regard as the greatest work of its kind.  Together with the Barbirolli love fest that's been going on hereabouts, that means just one thing:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41T154CG23L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Renfield on March 22, 2010, 12:09:28 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 22, 2010, 11:56:52 AM
It's also alarming to see how strongly people deny brainwashing.

Quote from: 71 dB on March 22, 2010, 11:56:52 AM
Don't believe authority without critical thinking.

See, that's the problem.

You are pulling a Karl Popper, and being as dogmatic about your position (quote 1) as the very dogmaticism you criticise with it (quote 2). I agree, authority is an easy way out; but if I offer that statement to you on my authority, it doesn't make much sense!


Or: if you have already decided some people are brainwashed, thus denying them the chance to defend themselves, then you are doing the same thing people do to you when they deny you the chance to defend the music you admire, by default.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on March 22, 2010, 12:23:30 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 22, 2010, 11:59:11 AMYou really think that? Beethoven's string quartets suck because I think they rule? Really?
Yes, I do.  Not only are you wrong about everything, but you are so determined not to learn anything that I've long been convinced the problem is not just faulty cognition but something organic and far beyond your control.  Neither my compassion for your condition nor my admiration for all that you've accomplished in spite of it, however, compels me to patronize you by pretending your stubborn attachment to uninformed opinions is anything other than what it clearly is.

And as I'm sure you've been told countless times before, Beethoven's string quartets are among the greatest achievements of Western civilization and your opinion affects that fact no more than it affects the tides or the phases of the moon.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 22, 2010, 12:46:45 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 22, 2010, 12:23:30 PM
but you are so determined not to learn anything
What the heck are you talking about? We all learn new things every day! Nobody is determined not to learn anything.

Quote from: DavidRoss on March 22, 2010, 12:23:30 PMAnd as I'm sure you've been told countless times before, Beethoven's string quartets are among the greatest achievements of Western civilization and your opinion affects that fact no more than it affects the tides or the phases of the moon.
Yes, but about 6 billion people don't know this. We do. We are a tiny minority but we are still right, no matter how much this population of 6 billion thinks otherwise. The point is a small minority is very easy to overlook, even ignore but the minority can still be 100 % right while all the others are wrong.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 22, 2010, 12:51:15 PM
Now Alan, that bombast remark was initially mine and it was the battering about the ears that Solti dinned me with. I now have the Tate recording of the 2nd, as suggested by Sarge and all is well in the household and the Symphony has regained its rightful place here, sans bombast.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 22, 2010, 12:51:40 PM
Quote from: Renfield on March 22, 2010, 12:09:28 PM
See, that's the problem.

You are pulling a Karl Popper, and being as dogmatic about your position (quote 1) as the very dogmaticism you criticise with it (quote 2). I agree, authority is an easy way out; but if I offer that statement to you on my authority, it doesn't make much sense!

Or: if you have already decided some people are brainwashed, thus denying them the chance to defend themselves, then you are doing the same thing people do to you when they deny you the chance to defend the music you admire, by default.

You are not supposed to take me as authority! You are supposed to critically evaluate what I say. Disagree or agree but be critical!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 22, 2010, 01:51:39 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 22, 2010, 09:40:23 AM
Maybe I am wrong about everything?
Possible, but unlikely. After all, I agree with quite a lot of what you say about Elgar's music, so if you're wrong about all of that then (oh horrors) so am I. I just wouldn't myself rate an understanding of Elgar on the degree of esteem felt for the second symphony.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 22, 2010, 03:01:57 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 22, 2010, 11:56:52 AMIt's also alarming to see how strongly people deny brainwashing. Just compare the difference between your listening experiences and what has been taught to you in school and what you have read. Don't believe authority without critical thinking.

Somehow escapes you that it is both offensive and ridiculous to assert that anyone who fails to agree with you is "brainwashed" or has defective thought processes.   When you make statements like this, most people will react by unconditionally disregarding everything you say.   
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on March 22, 2010, 06:37:43 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 21, 2010, 08:14:00 AM
Perhaps the Andrew Davis on Teldec (I always like Teldec sound, but Andrew Davis is a bit of an unknown) or Hickox's recordings of Chandos?  Colin Davis on LSO Live?
I have the Warner Apex 5-CD boxed reissue of Andrew Davis's Elgar. The two discs with the symphonies sound "woolly" to me. I find increasing the treble response makes them sound fresher, but the result is still unfortunate. The rest of the set sounds fine. Performance-wise I'd rank the set as "pretty good". I think his Music Makers is excellent, though I don't have many points of comparison.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on March 22, 2010, 08:21:32 PM
Quote from: Velimir on March 22, 2010, 09:19:43 AM


I find this unfair. I've never met anyone who rejects Beethoven in his totality because of his Cantata on the Elevation of Leopold II to the Imperial Dignity, or Brahms because of his Triumphlied (a bombastic celebration of German unification), or Tchaikovsky because of the 1812 Overture or Marche slave. Yet somehow the nationalistic bombast that was part & parcel of European life in the 19th century sticks to Elgar more strongly than to those other composers.


Possibly because the UK remains the UK, whereas there is no more Austro Hungarian, German, or Russian Empires.  So the Elgar contribution is part of something that continues into our time, while the others are not (at least in the formal sense--there is after all the fact that one can say that Russia remains an empire, only a different set of rulers).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 02:21:40 AM
Quote from: knight on March 22, 2010, 12:51:15 PM
Now Alan, that bombast remark was initially mine and it was the battering about the ears that Solti dinned me with. I now have the Tate recording of the 2nd, as suggested by Sarge and all is well in the household and the Symphony has regained its rightful place here, sans bombast.

Mike
Aha! That's interesting! Now I have to lay my cards on the table and admit that I have never heard so much as a whisper of Solti's Elgar. If I did, maybe my reaction would be the same as yours,  Mike, and I'd hear bombast in it for the first time!

I'm probably a bit too complacent about it all, having been drawn into Elgar very early on by Sargent, then Boult, and Barbirolli, and then not being particularly bothered about exploring widely.

I'm not convinced that I've ever heard what I'd call a bad Elgar recording, actually. Thinking in terms of both symphonies, I enjoy the Colin Davis LSO live versions with their slow, broad sweeping approach, and Slatkin, and the Andrew Davis too, even though it tends to be Boult or Barbirolli as my first choice.

The third Elgar/Payne symphony is something of a miracle, in my view. I was hugely resistive at first, but gradually it's worked its way under my skin, and by golly it just so much sounds like Elgar! The first movement in particular seems to have some of the preoccupations of the violin concerto. The way it begins, with those great swelling notes like rolling waves, almost like a warning - and then tips over into feminine delicacy with the exquisite second theme and sets up a dialogue between public and private, between masculine and feminine, between duty and longing: this is archetypal Elgar, the dialogue between inner and outer, carrying on where the violin concerto left off. Then later in the work, where he brings in the music from the Arthur suite - that's wonderfully effective, openly admitting the chivalric ideal into the argument in a way that that really does get close to the heart of the man.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 23, 2010, 03:42:32 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 02:21:40 AM
Aha! That's interesting! Now I have to lay my cards on the table and admit that I have never heard so much as a whisper of Solti's Elgar. If I did, maybe my reaction would be the same as yours,  Mike, and I'd hear bombast in it for the first time!

I'm probably a bit too complacent about it all, having been drawn into Elgar very early on by Sargent, then Boult, and Barbirolli, and then not being particularly bothered about exploring widely.

I'm not convinced that I've ever heard what I'd call a bad Elgar recording, actually. Thinking in terms of both symphonies, I enjoy the Colin Davis LSO live versions with their slow, broad sweeping approach, and Slatkin, and the Andrew Davis too, even though it tends to be Boult or Barbirolli as my first choice.

The third Elgar/Payne symphony is something of a miracle, in my view. I was hugely resistive at first, but gradually it's worked its way under my skin, and by golly it just so much sounds like Elgar! The first movement in particular seems to have some of the preoccupations of the violin concerto. The way it begins, with those great swelling notes like rolling waves, almost like a warning - and then tips over into feminine delicacy with the exquisite second theme and sets up a dialogue between public and private, between masculine and feminine, between duty and longing: this is archetypal Elgar, the dialogue between inner and outer, carrying on where the violin concerto left off. Then later in the work, where he brings in the music from the Arthur suite - that's wonderfully effective, openly admitting the chivalric ideal into the argument in a way that that really does get close to the heart of the man.

Which third do you like?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 23, 2010, 04:31:33 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 02:21:40 AM
The third Elgar/Payne symphony is something of a miracle, in my view. I was hugely resistive at first, but gradually it's worked its way under my skin, and by golly it just so much sounds like Elgar! The first movement in particular seems to have some of the preoccupations of the violin concerto. The way it begins, with those great swelling notes like rolling waves, almost like a warning - and then tips over into feminine delicacy with the exquisite second theme and sets up a dialogue between public and private, between masculine and feminine, between duty and longing: this is archetypal Elgar, the dialogue between inner and outer, carrying on where the violin concerto left off. Then later in the work, where he brings in the music from the Arthur suite - that's wonderfully effective, openly admitting the chivalric ideal into the argument in a way that that really does get close to the heart of the man.

Most interesting, Alan, thanks.

[ —I mean, drat, my wallet does not thank you, sieur. ]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 07:47:29 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on March 23, 2010, 03:42:32 AM
Which third do you like?

I only have two. My first choice is this one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61M09H0TJ7L._SL500_AA300_.gif)

This was the first version I ever heard, and is still my favourite. For example, Daniel has an incisive, even raw approach to the great 'warning' theme of the beginning, but also when the second theme comes in, he's capable of responding to that with exquisite delicacy and tenderness. Simply marvellous, frankly.

I also have this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CD1WHEE1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Davis's approach is significantly different - bigger, more spacious. I might say, more 'cloudy'. I can't declare it inferior to the Bournemouth SO effort, but I do find it a little less attractive, less urgent; less nuanced in his response to the most delicately feminine bits. But heck, both discs are as cheap as chips, so why not get both, as I did?

I've toyed with getting Andrew Davis's recording which by all accounts is very fine. And I must also mention this CD:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41APPtlTmuL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

It seems to be still available on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sketches-Edward-Elgar/dp/B00002687H/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1269358902&sr=1-4 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sketches-Edward-Elgar/dp/B00002687H/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1269358902&sr=1-4)
In this CD Anthony Payne takes you step by step through his reconstruction - fascinating stuff.

Also there's an excellent book by Payne about it:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EEKB8F46L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Eminently readable even by an Elgarian of very limited musical brain like myself.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 07:49:13 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 23, 2010, 04:31:33 AM

[ —I mean, drat, my wallet does not thank you, sieur. ]

It will, Karl, it will. The Daniel/Bournemouth recording is superb and certainly won't impact your wallet much.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: MN Dave on March 23, 2010, 07:52:24 AM
Whenever I see this thread, I think "Elgar's Backside".  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 07:53:43 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on March 23, 2010, 07:52:24 AM
Whenever I see this thread, I think "Elgar's Backside".  ;D

Cheers, Dave .... or rather, 'Bottom's up!'
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 23, 2010, 07:58:09 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 02:21:40 AM
Aha! That's interesting! Now I have to lay my cards on the table and admit that I have never heard so much as a whisper of Solti's Elgar. If I did, maybe my reaction would be the same as yours,  Mike, and I'd hear bombast in it for the first time!

After listening to Barbirolli's 1 over the last few days, I listened to the first movement of Solti's recording.  The tempo is a lot brisker, he gets on with it more quickly, but there is a lack of affection.  I agree with Elgerian that the essence of Elgar is nobility tinged with sadness or regret and Solti seems to make less room for the tinge.  The definition of bombast is language which is padded with grandiose rhetoric, which might be consistent with the impression obtained from Solti's performance.

But to be honest, I am still not comfortable with the entirety of Elgar's first symphony.  The most convincing part is the opening, and the return of the opening theme at the very end in grandiose but autumnal orchestration.  There is also an arrestingly beautiful theme that appears a few minutes into the slow movement.  But the bulk of the first movement and finale fail to make a distinct impression on me, as yet.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 23, 2010, 08:13:15 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 07:49:13 AM
It will, Karl, it will. The Daniel/Bournemouth recording is superb and certainly won't impact your wallet much.

Well, you're right there, Alan . . . a Naxos release does not bite deep into the budget.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 23, 2010, 08:52:02 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 23, 2010, 07:58:09 AM
After listening to Barbirolli's 1 over the last few days, I listened to the first movement of Solti's recording.  The tempo is a lot brisker, he gets on with it more quickly, but there is a lack of affection.  I agree with Elgerian that the essence of Elgar is nobility tinged with sadness or regret and Solti seems to make less room for the tinge.  The definition of bombast is language which is padded with grandiose rhetoric, which might be consistent with the impression obtained from Solti's performance.

I'm listening to Barbirolli's First also...and doing some quick comparisons with my other versions. Interesting to note that Boult's First, which I usually consider my favorite along with Previn (a really glorious account that all Elgarians should hear) is actually a few seconds faster, overall, than Solti. I just can't describe Solti's as bombastic. That's not the way I hear it. But then we all have very individual ears  ;)


Timings for Elgar Symphony #1

                           I         II         III        IV
Sinopoli          20:41   7:10    14:10   13:27 (55:28)

Davis (LSO)    21:00   7:52   12:47    12:45 (54:47)

Tate               20:39   7:10   14:16   12:22  (54:27)

Barbirolli         21:39   7:03   12:15   12:46  (53:43)

Previn            19:26   6:52   12:58   12:27  (51:43)

Solti               17:45   7:08   12:12   11:38  (48:43)

Boult (EMI)    18:33   7:14    10:53   12:01  (48:41)


Sarge




Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on March 23, 2010, 09:03:34 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 07:53:43 AM
Cheers, Dave .... or rather, 'Bottom's up!'
Hah!  ;D

Quote from: Scarpia on March 23, 2010, 07:58:09 AMI agree with Elgerian that the essence of Elgar is nobility tinged with sadness or regret
I agree with this, too...or at least agree that this is the essence of the Elgar that I find appealing.

"One cannot be deeply responsive to the world without being saddened very often." ~Erich Fromm

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 23, 2010, 08:52:02 AMInteresting to note that Boult's First, which I usually consider my favorite along with Previn (a really glorious account that all Elgarians should hear)
Previn's is my keeper, Sarge.  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 23, 2010, 09:10:37 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 23, 2010, 09:03:34 AM
Previn's is my keeper, Sarge.  8)

It's perfect...like his Walton 1. Definitely goes to the desert island.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 23, 2010, 09:35:07 AM
Well, I didn't find the Elgar Third Naxos rec at either Borders or F.Y.E. . . . and anyway, I ought to sit down and listen to my Tate recording of the First & Second, firstly! ; )
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 09:50:40 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 23, 2010, 07:58:09 AM
But to be honest, I am still not comfortable with the entirety of Elgar's first symphony.  The most convincing part is the opening, and the return of the opening theme at the very end in grandiose but autumnal orchestration.  There is also an arrestingly beautiful theme that appears a few minutes into the slow movement.  But the bulk of the first movement and finale fail to make a distinct impression on me, as yet.

How about the section in the last movement that begins about 4 minutes in with a march-like theme - dom dom dom diddle dom dom doo dah - which builds and builds, with strings swirling threateningly around and around, like an invading army circling around a hilltop, ever more dangerous .... until dark notes from the basses make us pause, and then suddenly, miraculously,  around 6m30s, that same theme swells upwards on the strings, transformed almost beyond recognition from military threat to some kind of reconciliation or ultimate spiritual redemption, almost, but not quite, completing itself after about 8 minutes. The re-emergence of that theme, there, dressed in completely new clothes, is one of the greatest moments in all Elgar, for me. And when after that the march theme appears again, transformed in our perceptions because we've just been shown what it can be transformed into, it does so only to herald the magnificent return of the original theme, that fantastic tune, from the first movement - and I know that once you arrive at that point, you're OK.

But try starting 4 minutes into the final movement, where the march begins, and listen to that entire closing 9 minutes as a whole. Once you get that, try going back and listening to the whole movement again, where all this is presented mixed up together and stirred like some kind of primeval soup - the outcome merely hinted at but not guaranteed, until order begins to emerge (around 4 mins).

[Timings based on Colin Davis LSO Live.]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 23, 2010, 10:00:18 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 09:50:40 AM
How about the section in the last movement that begins about 4 minutes in with a march-like theme - dom dom dom diddle dom dom doo dah - which builds and builds, with strings swirling threateningly around and around, like an invading army circling around a hilltop, ever more dangerous .... until dark notes from the basses make us pause, and then suddenly, miraculously,  around 6m30s, that same theme swells upwards on the strings, transformed almost beyond recognition from military threat to some kind of reconciliation or ultimate spiritual redemption, almost, but not quite, completing itself after about 8 minutes. The re-emergence of that theme, there, dressed in completely new clothes, is one of the greatest moments in all Elgar, for me. And when after that the march theme appears again, transformed in our perceptions because we've just been shown what it can be transformed into, it does so only to herald the magnificent return of the original theme, that fantastic tune, from the first movement - and I know that once you arrive at that point, you're OK.

But try starting 4 minutes into the final movement, where the march begins, and listen to that entire closing 9 minutes as a whole. Once you get that, try going back and listening to the whole movement again, where all this is presented mixed up together and stirred like some kind of primeval soup - the outcome merely hinted at but not guaranteed, until order begins to emerge (around 4 mins).

[Timings based on Colin Davis LSO Live.]

Yes, these are the sorts of things I am missing.  I think the opulence of Elgar's orchestration sometimes obscures such thematic developments.  I am expecting delivery of several Elgar recordings and I will spin the 1st symphony with your notes in mind.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 23, 2010, 10:55:11 AM
I want to apologize what I wrote yesterday. I take my statement about brainwashing back. I removed some of my messages. I forgot to be polite, sorry.

Quote from: ukrneal on March 23, 2010, 03:42:32 AM
Which third do you like?
I have Andrew Davis on NMC (also the commentary CD) and Paul Daniel on Naxos. I find these performances equally good. Andrew Davis does the second movement "Scherzo: Allegretto" fantastically but Paul Daniel does a more clean and smooth overall job.

I like this elaboration very much, almost as much as the first and second.  0:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 23, 2010, 12:36:26 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 23, 2010, 09:35:07 AM
Well, I didn't find the Elgar Third Naxos rec at either Borders or F.Y.E. . . . and anyway, I ought to sit down and listen to my Tate recording of the First & Second, firstly! ; )
And secondly!  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 23, 2010, 12:52:58 PM
This discussion has prompted me to give the 3rd another try. I have not cracked it yet.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 01:23:02 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 23, 2010, 10:00:18 AM
I am expecting delivery of several Elgar recordings and I will spin the 1st symphony with your notes in mind.

I betcha a million pounds that if you listen to those last 9 minutes (possibly twice over) with that core structure at the back of your mind, you'll make a breakthrough.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 23, 2010, 02:13:17 PM
I have given the third another try. I have Andrew Davis BBC SO version. For anyone interested in acquiring a version: the notes with this recording are fascinating. There is both an extended piece by Colin Matthews discussing the morality of completing such unfinished pieces, then an essay by Anthony Payne.

This was the premier recording and appropriate; as the commission to Elgar and the eventual commission to Payne came from the BBC.

I have not been able to get to grips with it, though I had not really tried hard. This time round, the first movement felt like an old friend, mind you one with plenty of life in him. The middle two movements continue to be rather indistinct fog for me and the final movement fell between these two extremes.

I should think a further three times through and I will feel a lot more comfortable. I do believe it is well worth persevering, there is some beautiful and stirring music in it.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 23, 2010, 03:45:38 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 23, 2010, 10:55:11 AM
I want to apologize what I wrote yesterday. I take my statement about brainwashing back. I removed some of my messages. I forgot to be polite, sorry.

Thank you for your courtesy.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on March 23, 2010, 07:33:36 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on March 23, 2010, 07:52:24 AM
Whenever I see this thread, I think "Elgar's Backside".  ;D

That's really very funny.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 23, 2010, 08:09:10 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 01:23:02 PM
I betcha a million pounds that if you listen to those last 9 minutes (possibly twice over) with that core structure at the back of your mind, you'll make a breakthrough.

I did listen to the remainder of Solti's recording of this piece and I see what you mean.  Perhaps my problem with this music is that if I don't pay attention it starts to sound like a Pomp and Circumstance March and trio.   The Nobilmente is Elgar's basic idiom and I have to pay attention to how he is modulating it in these works.

But in the end, Solti is not the conductor I want to be listening to in this music.  The finale is rushed, to my ears, and a lot more could be made of the third movment.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 24, 2010, 03:08:38 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 23, 2010, 08:09:10 PM
Perhaps my problem with this music is that if I don't pay attention it starts to sound like a Pomp and Circumstance March and trio.   The Nobilmente is Elgar's basic idiom and I have to pay attention to how he is modulating it in these works.

I have to pay attention too while listening to Elgar. This is not a problem at all since no other music makes me pay attention like Elgar does. I find it very captivating.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 24, 2010, 08:35:40 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 23, 2010, 08:09:10 PM
I did listen to the remainder of Solti's recording of this piece and I see what you mean.  Perhaps my problem with this music is that if I don't pay attention it starts to sound like a Pomp and Circumstance March and trio.   The Nobilmente is Elgar's basic idiom and I have to pay attention to how he is modulating it in these works.

But in the end, Solti is not the conductor I want to be listening to in this music.
I don't know Solti's Elgar, and from Mike's comments earlier (and yours) I don't think I want to. It sounds as if he's conducting some kind of caricature, rather than an interpretation as I'd understand it.

The Nobilmente is, yes, certainly Elgar's idiom: but it represents a chivalric and noble ideal, not a self-aggrandising achievement. It's something to be aimed for, concerned with justice, freedom, and brotherhood - not something smug, to be swanked about. Elgar's Imperialism is hugely misunderstood - and this is partly because he was unwise  enough to set a few pieces of music to some ill-chosen words written by others. If one plucks those out in isolation (like the finale to Caractacus, for instance), then of course one can make a case for something rather tasteless if one ignores everything else. But I don't believe there is even a whisper of anything approaching jingoism in the first symphony.

That transformation I spoke of - where the militaristic march is transformed into a heart-lifting, visionary melody from Heaven, which in turn is allowed to lead into the wonderful tune from the first movement, tells the whole story. A celebration of Englishness, yes - but an Englishness based on a love of the land and the chivalric ideal, and the optimistic hope for transformation. After all, Elgar himself said that the symphony had no programme "beyond a wide experience of human life with a great charity and a massive hope in the future". I think that's bang on.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 24, 2010, 08:45:52 AM
Quote from: knight on March 23, 2010, 02:13:17 PM
This time round, the first movement felt like an old friend, mind you one with plenty of life in him.

Do you see what I mean, Mike, about the contrast between the masculine, 'warning' character of the first theme, and the gentle comforting femininity of the second theme? (By all accounts he'd become infatuated by a young lady called Vera Hockman when he was composing this, and she effectively became the muse that inspired the feminine half of that wonderful musical dialogue in the 1st movement.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on March 24, 2010, 08:50:13 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 24, 2010, 08:35:40 AM
The Nobilmente is, yes, certainly Elgar's idiom: but it represents a chivalric and noble ideal, not a self-aggrandising achievement. It's something to be aimed for, concerned with justice, freedom, and brotherhood . . . .

Yes, a humane trait, and not any chauvinistic matter.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 26, 2010, 07:42:20 AM
I think I am starting to "get" Elgar's first, Elgerian's description was a big help.  Another key was listening to Solti, which stripped the symphony of every worthwhile attribute, then returning to Barbirolli, whose reading is a masterpiece.   :D

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 26, 2010, 08:06:03 AM
Glad to read it. It sounds like Solti did much the same in the First for you as he did for me in the Second.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 26, 2010, 08:09:05 AM
Now a question, should I consider Boult's recordings essential in this music?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ocGdYErRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 26, 2010, 11:21:39 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 26, 2010, 08:09:05 AM
Now a question, should I consider Boult's recordings essential in this music?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ocGdYErRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Boult is fantastic in this music. He has all the 'nobleness' you could want. I particularly like symphony #2.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 26, 2010, 12:42:48 PM
If it were The Elgar Interpreters' last stand, and the arrows were flying thick and fast, it would be Boult and Barbirolli that I would hope were the last two standing.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on March 27, 2010, 10:05:22 AM
This one came in the mail today and I briefly sampled the ending.

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CD80310.jpg)

Really splendid.  I can't say that Zinman is doing anything particularly brilliant with it, but they are playing it properly and the Telarc sound is clear, full bodied and beautifully imaged, making it possible to the details of orchestration with excellent clarity.  To bad we can't transport their recording rig back in time to 1962 and use it to record Barbirolli's performance.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 10, 2010, 09:39:21 AM
The Andrew Davis 5CD set finally arrived, very lavish with extensive notes on all of the works included.  I listened to the Symphony No. 1.  Generally splendid, taken in a relaxed tempo with a feel not unlike Barbirolli's, but without the limitations of 1963 audio engineering.  I was a little bit disappointed to see that the recordings were done by Tony Faulkner (the guy who does most orchestral recordings for Hyperion) rather than Teldec's own engineering team.  But the results are good, perhaps a little bright for my taste, but not bad at all. 

Note added:
Having listened to the recording a second part, I would say it has many beautiful moments, particularly the passage which Elgarian described so eloquently, in which the vigorous theme introduced in the finale is transformed into a gentle, celestial theme in the middle of the movement.  That gentle passage is pulled off better in this recording than in any of the others I've been listening to, including Barbirolli.  Overall, I'd say Andrew Davis' approach is very similar to Barbirolli's, and only suffers from a flagging of momentum in a few of the more vigorous passages.  Splendid


Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on April 16, 2010, 02:48:41 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 26, 2010, 12:42:48 PM
If it were The Elgar Interpreters' last stand, and the arrows were flying thick and fast, it would be Boult and Barbirolli that I would hope were the last two standing.

     The only conductor I can think of that interprets Elgar as well, or perhaps better, is Elgar.

     In an earlier post I compared performances of the Prelude to The Kingdom by Hickox and Boult. I believe that most lovers of Elgar would agree that Boult has a more nuanced understanding of this music.

     Prelude (Hickox) (http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/2/1559968/Prelude%20%28Hickox%29.mp3)

     Prelude (Boult) (http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/2/1559968/Prelude%20%28Boult%29.mp3)

     And here is Elgar:

     http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/VVU9CXPq-oo

     It's true, Elgar was a terrific conductor of his own music based on this. You can see, though, from a comparison of these 3 that Boult is right up there. There is a transition that particularly shows what this sensitivity to a composer's intentions can mean. It's at 6:13 in Elgar, 5:46 in Boult, 6:44 in Hickox. It's a small thing that makes a big difference.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on April 18, 2010, 09:50:39 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on March 23, 2010, 07:52:24 AM
Whenever I see this thread, I think "Elgar's Backside".  ;D

Then there's that thread, "The Incredible Water Pistol".
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 19, 2010, 04:41:41 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on April 18, 2010, 09:50:39 PM
Then there's that thread, "The Incredible Water Pistol".

Hah!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on April 19, 2010, 04:46:43 AM
(http://saysomethingfunny.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/super-soaker-50.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 19, 2010, 04:50:12 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 19, 2010, 04:46:43 AM
(http://saysomethingfunny.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/super-soaker-50.jpg)

Is that a water pistol or a sex toy?

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on April 19, 2010, 06:40:12 PM
No, I think it's used for, er, after....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on April 19, 2010, 07:16:41 PM
Hmmm...are you suggesting it be filled with vinegar?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 24, 2010, 10:27:07 PM
I'm afraid I'm in trouble again.  Listened to the violin concerto through twice (Kennedy/Rattle).  I just don't get it.  Such a beautiful opening, such a haunting theme, such wonderful harmonies, such a wonderful Straussian flourish from the horns.  Then the solo violin enters.  After stating the opening motif, to many notes.  Too, too many notes.  Incessant running up and down the finger board, to what effect?  What is Elgar trying to tell us?  The only message flashing through my brain is, "please make it stop!"  I'm evidently missing something here.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on April 24, 2010, 11:03:32 PM
Perhaps you are not 'missing' it, but simply don't like it. I don't want to suggest you sound like.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCud8H7z7vU

But I don't have the same problems with the piece, sounds fine to me.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 24, 2010, 11:33:45 PM
Quote from: knight on April 24, 2010, 11:03:32 PM
Perhaps you are not 'missing' it, but simply don't like it. I don't want to suggest you sound like.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCud8H7z7vU

But I don't have the same problems with the piece, sounds fine to me.

Mike

Yes, I am quite familiar with the scene.  Elgar is not Mozart.   :D   However, probably I should take your advice and give up on the piece.  Life is too short.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on April 24, 2010, 11:38:44 PM
Yes, it was not a dig at you, but your comments brought that scene to mind and I could not then resist the link.

Mike

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on April 25, 2010, 01:27:14 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 24, 2010, 10:27:07 PM
I just don't get it.

Sorry about that.

Quote from: Scarpia on April 24, 2010, 10:27:07 PMSuch a beautiful opening, such a haunting theme, such wonderful harmonies, such a wonderful Straussian flourish from the horns.

No problems getting it so far...

Quote from: Scarpia on April 24, 2010, 10:27:07 PMThen the solo violin enters.  After stating the opening motif, to many notes.  Too, too many notes.

What is too many? 16? 27? 165? I don't calculate notes, I simply enjoy the music.

Quote from: Scarpia on April 24, 2010, 10:27:07 PMIncessant running up and down the finger board, to what effect?  What is Elgar trying to tell us?

Elgar tells us that life is not optimized. It's full of repetition and redundancy and we better accept it. Struggle is part of life and often things take time.

Quote from: Scarpia on April 24, 2010, 10:27:07 PMThe only message flashing through my brain is, "please make it stop!"  I'm evidently missing something here.

I feel very differently. I find that part of the work very beautiful, relaxing and comforting. Why would I want that that to stop? I NEED those things.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on April 25, 2010, 05:54:06 AM
Thanks for the reminder that it's been too long since I last heard Kennedy/Rattle/CBSO's record of Elgar's VC.  Not too many notes, I think, just the number he required, no more, no less.  ;) 

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 25, 2010, 06:43:03 AM
There, we've localized your problem, Scarps: Don't calculate notes, simply enjoy the music.

Quote from: DavidRoss on April 25, 2010, 05:54:06 AM
Thanks for the reminder that it's been too long since I last heard Kennedy/Rattle/CBSO's record of Elgar's VC.  Not too many notes, I think, just the number he required, no more, no less.  ;) 

Got that one loaded onto the player!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 25, 2010, 09:13:32 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 25, 2010, 06:43:03 AM
There, we've localized your problem, Scarps: Don't calculate notes, simply enjoy the music.

If I was enjoying the music I wouldn't be counting the notes (and there are seven hundred fourteen thousand two hundred sixty seven, by my count). 

Maybe Kennedy's overwrought tone, combined with strident EMI engineering is what's bothering me (the only two recordings I have are his two recordings).  There is a definite finger nails on the chalkboard effect.  Some contrast is needed before dismissing this piece.  The recent recording by the ice maiden is on order.  Maybe the ice-water in the veins approach will work better for me in this piece.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 25, 2010, 09:35:43 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 25, 2010, 09:13:32 AM
If I was enjoying the music I wouldn't be counting the notes (and there are seven hundred fourteen thousand two hundred sixty seven, by my count). 

Maybe Kennedy's overwrought tone, combined with strident EMI engineering is what's bothering me (the only two recordings I have are his two recordings).  There is a definite finger nails on the chalkboard effect.  Some contrast is needed before dismissing this piece.  The recent recording by the ice maiden is on order.  Maybe the ice-water in the veins approach will work better for me in this piece.

Kennedy makes me want to poke my eyes out, even in this piece where most people love him. I would try a different approach before deciding you don't like the piece - as it really is wonderful. Maybe come back to it later...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 25, 2010, 01:04:14 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 24, 2010, 10:27:07 PM
I'm afraid I'm in trouble again.  Listened to the violin concerto through twice (Kennedy/Rattle).  I just don't get it.  Such a beautiful opening, such a haunting theme, such wonderful harmonies, such a wonderful Straussian flourish from the horns.  Then the solo violin enters.  After stating the opening motif, to many notes.  Too, too many notes.  Incessant running up and down the finger board, to what effect?  What is Elgar trying to tell us?  The only message flashing through my brain is, "please make it stop!"  I'm evidently missing something here.
Elgar's violin concerto has haunted me for most of my post-adolescent life, and it took me many years to get to grips with it. I think it's true to say that a little knowledge of certain aspects of Elgar's life makes it more accessible, more poignant, though I wouldn't suggest it was actually necessary. Some may think it's too long, at 45-50 minutes, but the extra length is due almost entirely to the extraordinary cadenza with which he closes the work.

Someone once remarked that one of the signs of Shakespeare's greatness was his ability to 'connect public and private' worlds so successfully, and I think it's possible to say the same thing about much of Elgar's greatest music - most particularly the violin concerto, where there's a whole spectrum of musical discourse ranging from the public, at one end (Elgar's 'nobilmente' is one aspect of it) to the intensely, intimately private (such as the second windflower theme), at the other. One way (I don't say the only way) of looking at the entire concerto might be as an exploration of this connection between the public and the private. There's the face of Elgar the public man - the one that he presents to the world; the one that stands for his country and his time. And there is the inner heart of Elgar; the insecure, deeply troubled, aching, longing individual mind. Because we all have our own equivalents of these components, the violin concerto has the capability of tearing us to pieces once we tune in properly to it.

The key to the heart of the first movement is the recognition of the two 'Windflower' themes (see my avatar). That these themes, different in character but both deeply feminine, had some symbolic significance for Elgar is unquestionable; trying to discover what it is, is another matter. Perhaps it can't be expressed in words. Elgar wrote on the score: 'Herein is enshrined the soul of .....' but he didn't tell us who '.....' is. Lady Alice Stuart Wortley, Elgar's soulmate and muse for many years, is often proposed as the most likely candidates for the 'soul' - Elgar's nickname for her was 'Windflower' - but I don't believe it's so simple. A heart-rending drama is played out, again and again, between the two 'Windflower' themes, initially in the first movement, and later, most devastatingly, in the extraordinary 10-minute cadenza in the final movement. The second movement is exquisitely beautiful, and would alone make the piece a favourite for me, but the reason why I go back to this concerto, time and time again, is this great drama of the two 'windflower' themes.

Whoever or whatever is the 'soul' enshrined here, nowhere is it enshrined more mysteriously than in the cadenza. About 9 minutes into the last movement, Elgar starts to wind things up. We sense that the finale is coming; we get ready for the end. But no. The release we're expecting doesn't happen. The momentum fades. Unexpectedly from the strings there comes the thrumming sound of something like wind - wind in trees, perhaps, or aeolian harps. It's a strange, haunting sound, and against this background the cadenza (it's an accompanied cadenza) begins. For the next 10 minutes or so the violin takes up again the 'windflower' themes that were such a key factor in the first movement, and explores them as if they represent something remembered that's exquisitely painful, yet loved beyond measure. Elgar has some unfinished business to resolve.

In the cadenza the two windflower themes seem to repeatedly lose each other, then find each other (fleetingly), then lose each other again. There are times when the music falters and almost dies, as if all momentum, all reason for continuing, has been lost - as if no resolution is possible. Elgar seems to strip his soul bare in this cadenza, and yet, finally, some kind of reconciliation is achieved. The darkly beautiful struggle is brought to an end; the window on Elgar's soul is closed, within just a few bars; and we're left once more with the public, optimistic face, with a curious feeling of uneasy acceptance of the insecurities to which we've just been made privy. And the concerto comes to an end in a brisk surge of something like optimism.

The power of it lies in the fact that it somehow seems to tap into something archetypal; something deeper than the mere fact that Elgar was in love with anyone in particular. Elgar is exposing normally hidden aspects of his longing for the feminine, expressed through his love-but-not-quite-love for Alice Stuart-Wortley. If you were to put a gun to my head and demand an explanation, I'd say I think the music conveys a kind of celebration of the feminine, as a healing essence, tempered by an awareness of its destructive, painful aspect. Because of the archetypal character of the struggle, we can all find aspects of ourselves in there: the tension between the need to perform publicly in the world, in the face of private turmoil, for instance; or the circular paradox of our perceptions of the feminine aspect as lover and mother (Persephone and Demeter).


Both of the Kennedy versions are generally regarded very highly, and of course he plays it brilliantly; but as far as I'm concerned it needs more than brilliance. This concerto isn't about virtuoso fireworks. I don't think Kennedy really gets to the heart-wrending poignant core of the music. Everything hangs on the bitter-sweet desperate interchange between the windflower themes - that is, on Elgar's yearning for some kind of archetypal feminine presence - and for me, Kennedy doesn't quite get that. I don't say it's the best (I wouldn't know how to judge that), but the version I return to again and again is Hugh Bean's, with Charles Groves and the RLPO.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 25, 2010, 01:50:14 PM
Have you given the Hahn recording a spin yet, Alan?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 25, 2010, 02:24:45 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 25, 2010, 01:50:14 PM
Have you given the Hahn recording a spin yet, Alan?

Yes.  It is the ice maiden I've pinned my hopes on!   :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 25, 2010, 02:37:58 PM
Well, I've gone on record as considering the Hahn too girly for the piece . . . so I've wondered what relation that may have to Alan's reading of necessary femininity.

But I think her 'voice' is just a little weak for the piece (at least in that recording).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on April 25, 2010, 02:54:16 PM
Hahn?  The Ice Maiden?  Have I crossed into an alternate universe?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 25, 2010, 03:38:36 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 25, 2010, 02:54:16 PM
Hahn?  The Ice Maiden?  Have I crossed into an alternate universe?

An impression formed after hearing her recording of the Bach violin concerti (if I recall correctly).  Sounded like a midi sound file to me.  I could be way off base.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on April 25, 2010, 04:40:16 PM
A heretical thought, Elgarian, but are you aware of a recording of the concerto which goes with Elgar's first thoughts, without the cadenza?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 25, 2010, 06:21:02 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 25, 2010, 03:38:36 PM
An impression formed after hearing her recording of the Bach violin concerti (if I recall correctly).  Sounded like a midi sound file to me.  I could be way off base.

Depends on one's expectations.  If one is fond of the Romantified Bach (once the only lens through which Bach was viewed), e.g., a variety of attempts to "get back" are going to seem less "vivid" in some ways.

Quote from: Lethe on April 25, 2010, 04:40:16 PM
A heretical thought, Elgarian, but are you aware of a recording of the concerto which goes with Elgar's first thoughts, without the cadenza?

You know I'm waiting for more, Sara! ; )
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 25, 2010, 07:24:26 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 25, 2010, 06:21:02 PM
Depends on one's expectations.  If one is fond of the Romantified Bach (once the only lens through which Bach was viewed), e.g., a variety of attempts to "get back" are going to seem less "vivid" in some ways.

About 98% of my Bach recordings are HIP, so I am not accustomed to Romanticized Bach.  But according to the school of HIP religion I subscribe to (the Harnoncourt variety) the Baroque scores assumed that the performer would take certain liberties.  Hahn played with (according to the memory of my impression) absolute rigidity and uniformity of perfect articulation.  Like a perfect machine.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on April 25, 2010, 07:30:45 PM
Quote from: ukrneal on April 25, 2010, 09:35:43 AM
Kennedy makes me want to poke my eyes out, even in this piece where most people love him. I would try a different approach before deciding you don't like the piece - as it really is wonderful. Maybe come back to it later...

I don't have Kennedy's Elgar.  Come to think of it, I don't have Kennedy's anybody :)

But I do have for the Elgar VC Gil Shaham with Zinman conducting the CSO (on Canary Classics), and like that well enough that I'm no hurry to look up an alternative.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 25, 2010, 07:44:29 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 25, 2010, 07:24:26 PM
About 98% of my Bach recordings are HIP, so I am not accustomed to Romanticized Bach.  But according to the school of HIP religion I subscribe to (the Harnoncourt variety) the Baroque scores assumed that the performer would take certain liberties.  Hahn played with (according to the memory of my impression) absolute rigidity and uniformity of perfect articulation.  Like a perfect machine.

Mine was but one example, and I did not necessarily impute it as pertaining to you.

BTW, it is a commonplace to derogate a performer whose style one does not respond positively to, as mechanical.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 25, 2010, 07:47:36 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on April 25, 2010, 07:30:45 PM
But I do have for the Elgar VC Gil Shaham with Zinman conducting the CSO (on Canary Classics), and like that well enough that I'm no hurry to look up an alternative.

In my ears, Shaham suffers from (what is to him in any events a bonus) the fact that a half dozen of his recordings are (or were) staples on WCRB.  Unfortunately (and one understands that even a fine artist is not always at his best) these recordings struck me as a violinist who was phoning it in.

That overall impression lingers, even though I have in the interim heard Shaham play live. (It was a good, but not a great performance.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 25, 2010, 08:43:29 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 25, 2010, 07:44:29 PMBTW, it is a commonplace to derogate a performer whose style one does not respond positively to, as mechanical.[/font]

I don't find it commonplace at all.  I don't think Kennedy is mechanical at all, for instance. He is overwrought and self-indulgent, in my impression.   In any case, I have a few Hahn recordings on the pile that I have not gotten around to yet, but not Bach.   (Excerpts of her recent recording of obbligato violin parts in Bach soprano arias left me equally cold.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 25, 2010, 09:33:37 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 25, 2010, 08:43:29 PM
I don't think Kennedy is mechanical at all, for instance.

Reverse fallacy. (Just saying.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 25, 2010, 09:35:11 PM
Fair disclosure: I haven't yet heard a Hahn recording to impress, so my part in the discourse is not a 'defense' of La Hahn.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 25, 2010, 11:54:50 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 25, 2010, 01:50:14 PM
Have you given the Hahn recording a spin yet, Alan?
No I haven't, Karl - too strapped for cash at the moment to get more than a small fraction of what's caught my eye. And also there's now competition from the new version by Zehetmair, with Mark Elder and the Halle (though for different reasons).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 26, 2010, 12:25:48 AM
Quote from: Lethe on April 25, 2010, 04:40:16 PM
A heretical thought, Elgarian, but are you aware of a recording of the concerto which goes with Elgar's first thoughts, without the cadenza?
Not sure if you're saying that such a recording exists, and asking have I heard it (no - I haven't), or if you're asking if such a thing exists (I don't know.)

I think I'd be surprised to learn if such a 'first thoughts' score existed (if it did, Elgar clearly wasn't satisfied with it). My understanding is that the cadenza wasn't tagged on as an afterthought, but something that developed naturally as he worked on the finale. At the time he was working on it, he described it in a note to a friend as 'the solo violin thinking over the first movement' - presumably as he himself was doing. He seems to have worked out a lot of it with the help of Billy Reed (Leader of the LSO), who came round to play it through with him - Reed writes: 'Passages were tried in different ways: the notes were regrouped or the phrasing altered. The Cadenza was in pieces; but soon the parts took shape and were knit together to become an integral part of the concerto.' Obviously they were working specifically on the cadenza on the occasion described in that anecdote, but I'm not aware that there was ever a time when anything like a self-contained version of the last movement existed without the cadenza.

So please tell me more, if there's more to tell.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on April 26, 2010, 02:50:37 AM
Oh, non - it was wishful thinking, as it felt as though the cadenza may have been added after other copies were made if not published. It intrigues me because, as you implied in your wonderful earlier posts on the piece, it would give it an entirely different mood - tighter, more self-consciously ticking the correct boxes for the template. I don't know why, but I have something like Dvorak's VC in mind as something it could be like with a textbook energetic finale, but with the cadenza I can't mentally tie the movement (or the entire piece) together in my head. I guess I have no imagination :P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 26, 2010, 06:15:29 AM
Quote from: Lethe on April 26, 2010, 02:50:37 AM
Oh, non - it was wishful thinking, as it felt as though the cadenza may have been added after other copies were made if not published.
Ah, right, I understand. I think I can clear that up with a few dates. Billy Reed first went to visit on 28 May 1910, and 'found E. striding about with a lot of loose sheets of music paper, arranging them in different parts of the room. Some were already pinned on the backs of chairs, or stuck up on the mantlepiece ready for me to play. ... we started work without losing a moment. What we played was a sketchy version of the Violin Concerto. He had got the main ideas written out, and, as he put it 'japed them up' to make a coherent piece.'

Nothing had been published at that stage, though it's doubtful whether the cadenza existed in anything but the sketchiest form, if at all. Elgar sent the violin and piano score of the first movement to the publisher on 1 June - there was no orchestration at that stage.

Reed then recalls going again on 12 June when 'the slow movement and the first movement of the concerto were almost finished; and the Coda was ready.' And on 30 June he was with Elgar sorting out the Cadenza (the passage I quoted in my previous post).

So this was all coming thick and fast, and the whole thing coming together through the month of June. Certainly there was no published 'early cadenza-less version'. If there was ever a cadenza-less version of any sort, it could only have existed for a few days, on multiple scraps of paper.

Quotewith the cadenza I can't mentally tie the movement (or the entire piece) together in my head. I guess I have no imagination :P
I don't think your imagination is in question! I just think it's a very idiosyncratic piece of music, and enormously worth persisting with. For years I thought it was just too darned long, but then I hadn't recognised the crucial importance of the cadenza, myself. Let's suppose he'd cut it out. So instead, when he starts to close down the shop about 9 minutes into the last movement, suppose he actually had chosen to close it down then and there, with a nice optimistic quasi-blustery ending, rather as it does, in fact, end. Well, we'd have a nice half-hour long concerto, packed with great tunes, with a meltingly lovely slow movement, and a feel-good ending to boot. And very nice too.

The fact that he could have done that so easily, but didn't, is a testament to his integrity I think. When the music pauses after those first 9 minutes and doesn't go on to the rousing finale, but instead dives down with the remembered windflower tunes into the pit of the cadenza, he's deciding not to pretend that he's sorted it all out. It's like writing an autobiography and deciding NOT to go for the pat, upbeat ending, but to face up to some pretty serious stuff instead. So then, when he does at last reach the (somewhat) upbeat ending, he does so after having faced things down squarely, and able to recognise that the upbeat stuff is really pretty fragile. Perhaps a bit of a bluff, even.

But look, this is just my personal reading of it. I've listened to it so many times down the years that I'm probably just stuck in my own groove. All I can say is that as the years go by, I find more and more to unravel, it gets more and more beautiful and moving as its musical symbolism seems to penetrate deeper into the human condition; and my perception of its giant stature steadily increases.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on April 26, 2010, 10:39:32 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 25, 2010, 01:27:14 AM
Elgar tells us that life is not optimized. It's full of repetition and redundancy and we better accept it.

That's an ... interesting way of defending Elgar! Makes him sound more like Philip Glass.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2010, 05:33:54 AM
Quote from: PojuElgar tells us that life is not optimized. It's full of repetition and redundancy and we better accept it.

It's all right that life is like that.

If art is too much like that, gawd it's teejus.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2010, 07:45:07 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 25, 2010, 03:38:36 PM
An impression formed after hearing her recording of the Bach violin concerti (if I recall correctly).  Sounded like a midi sound file to me.  I could be way off base.

I don't like Hahn's Bach either. It sounds mechanical to me too, with tempos tending to be way too fast.

Quote from: Scarpia on April 25, 2010, 08:43:29 PM
Kennedy...is overwrought and self-indulgent, in my impression.

Then you will probably prefer Hahn. Compared to Kennedy she is cooler (although no ice maiden either). The requisite emotions are there, not short-changed...at least that's the way I hear her. I do love what she and Davis do with the work but I seem to be a minority...me and the Hurwitzer  ;D

Edit: Looking at some Elgar VC reviews in Gramophone (boy, the Brits really hate Hahn's Elgar :D ), I read a rave about the James Ehnes performance, Andrew Davis conducting on the Onyx label. Ordered it. Has anyone heard it? 

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on April 27, 2010, 08:10:17 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2010, 07:45:07 AM
I don't like Hahn's Bach either. It sounds mechanical to me too, with tempos tending to be way too fast.

Then you will probably prefer Hahn. Compared to Kennedy she is cooler (although no ice maiden either). The requisite emotions are there, not short-changed...at least that's the way I hear her. I do love what she and Davis do with the work but I seem to be a minority...
The Hahn/Kahane Bach VCs are not my faves, either...but may be overdue for another hearing.  I do like her Elgar--not as much as her Mendelssohn or Beethoven--but the real treasure on that disc is her Lark Ascending.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2010, 08:32:17 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 27, 2010, 08:10:17 AM
The Hahn/Kahane Bach VCs are not my faves, either...but may be overdue for another hearing.

Yeah, I should give it another listen too. Sometimes first impressions don't make the best, uh...first impression  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on April 27, 2010, 08:40:30 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2010, 08:32:17 AM
Yeah, I should give it another listen too. Sometimes first impressions don't make the best, uh...first impression  ;D
I've probably heard their Lark nearly two dozen times.  It is my favorite recording of the piece among the half-dozen I own, all acquired incidental to the purchase of other works.  I listened to it last night, in fact, before bed, wanting to hear something serenely beautiful to set my troubled mind at ease.  But, as usual, I skipped the Elgar VC that precedes it on the same disc.

Perhaps I'll follow through with the Elgar later today...?  Though it's hardly my favorite VC and one I almost never reach for except after discussions like this!  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 27, 2010, 09:45:10 AM
I came to the Elgar concerto with a strong positive disposition, but I remain pessimistic that this work will ever win me over.  I don't find that the "romantic" violin concerto is one of my favorite genres, the exceptions are the Brahm, Beethoven and Sibelius.   Baroque, Classical or neo-Classical VCs are more to my liking (Bach, Martinu, Stravinsky, Hindemith, etc).

My characterization, too many notes, still holds, too much incessant figuration from the violin.  My favorite concerti don't have that.  The idea of a 10 minutes cadenza doesn't make any sense to me.  There is a 100 piece orchestra sitting there cooling it's heels and I should be listening to a single violin squawking away (even if it's not Kennedy)?  I am interested in thematic contrasts and development that people have described, but I wish Elgar had put them into a third symphony instead of this monstrosity!

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2010, 09:55:31 AM
Interesting.

Now, for me, it's the symphonies which are borderline monstronsities . . . where the Concerto I like very well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 27, 2010, 10:07:15 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 27, 2010, 09:55:31 AM
Interesting.

Now, for me, it's the symphonies which are borderline monstronsities . . . where the Concerto I like very well.


Maybe my experience will follow Elgerian and I will like it 20 years from now.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2010, 11:44:25 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 27, 2010, 08:40:30 AM
I've probably heard their Lark nearly two dozen times.  It is my favorite recording of the piece among the half-dozen I own, all acquired incidental to the purchase of other works.  I listened to it last night, in fact, before bed, wanting to hear something serenely beautiful to set my troubled mind at ease.

It is a hauntingly beautiful piece. I love it too. Listened to it today, matter of fact, not to the Hahn version but Iona Brown and the ASMF that comes coupled with the Chung/Solti Elgar VC. With me the concerto came first, today--the Lark an afterthought.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2010, 11:45:38 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 27, 2010, 09:45:10 AM
I came to the Elgar concerto with a strong positive disposition, but I remain pessimistic that this work will ever win me over.  I don't find that the "romantic" violin concerto is one of my favorite genres, the exceptions are the Brahm, Beethoven and Sibelius.   Baroque, Classical or neo-Classical VCs are more to my liking (Bach, Martinu, Stravinsky, Hindemith, etc).

My characterization, too many notes, still holds, too much incessant figuration from the violin.  My favorite concerti don't have that.  The idea of a 10 minutes cadenza doesn't make any sense to me.  There is a 100 piece orchestra sitting there cooling it's heels and I should be listening to a single violin squawking away (even if it's not Kennedy)?  I am interested in thematic contrasts and development that people have described, but I wish Elgar had put them into a third symphony instead of this monstrosity!

Does not compute. My brain uses a different operating system obviously.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 27, 2010, 11:46:01 AM
Even Kennedy's Lark is listenable.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 27, 2010, 12:29:08 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 27, 2010, 09:45:10 AM
The idea of a 10 minutes cadenza doesn't make any sense to me.
It sounds to me as though you're not going to get there this time around at least. The cadenza, as I've explained at some length, not only makes very great sense in its context, but actually lifts the concerto into quite a different realm, in my view. But it is absolutely necessary to follow closely the dialogue between the windflower themes, and to relate that to what went before in the first movement, or I suppose it may indeed sound like endless squawking, as you are finding.

QuoteThere is a 100 piece orchestra sitting there cooling it's heels and I should be listening to a single violin squawking away (even if it's not Kennedy)?
This statement tells me something important about the way you're listening - or rather, what you're not listening to. Fact is, the orchestra isn't sitting there cooling its heels. As I pointed out in my first post, this is an accompanied cadenza, and the orchestra makes crucial commentary and interjections all the way through the violin's explorations in the cadenza. If you're not hearing that, then I don't understand what's going on.

It's a truism, but a work of art that proves difficult to engage with does have to generate some degree of fascination in the first instance, in order to stimulate the necessary persistence. (As I said, it's taken me many fascinated years of listening to come to admire it as much as I do now, but it did have to intrigue me in the first place or I'd have given up). It sounds as though (for whatever reason) that's not happening for you at the moment, and I doubt the Kennedy is bad enough to provide an explanation. In other words, it seems unlikely that a different recording will solve the problem for you. Probably best to drop it, but if you do choose to persist, I wonder if you might do better in the first instance listening to the second movement a few times. Its sad, gentle and lovely lyricism might help you to feel better disposed towards the work as a whole.

QuoteI wish Elgar had put them into a third symphony instead of this monstrosity!
It's quite shocking to see such a profound and exquisite work described as a monstrosity, but as for the third symphony - well he did his best but died before it was finished, and Anthony Payne composed a 'completed' version from Elgar's sketches. The result is astonishingly fine, and sounds a lot more like Elgar than it has any right to do.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 27, 2010, 12:51:29 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 27, 2010, 12:29:08 PM
It sounds to me as though you're not going to get there this time around at least. The cadenza, as I've explained at some length, not only makes very great sense in its context, but actually lifts the concerto into quite a different realm, in my view. But it is absolutely necessary to follow closely the dialogue between the windflower themes, and to relate that to what went before in the first movement, or I suppose it may indeed sound like endless squawking, as you are finding.

This statement tells me something important about the way you're listening - or rather, what you're not listening to. Fact is, the orchestra isn't sitting there cooling its heels. As I pointed out in my first post, this is an accompanied cadenza, and the orchestra makes crucial commentary and interjections all the way through the violin's explorations in the cadenza. If you're not hearing that, then I don't understand what's going on.

Yes, I did not fail to notice that the orchestra accompanied the violin during the cadenza.  If thematic transformation is the focus, those themes could have been explored using the sections of the orchestra in an orchestral fantasia.  The overall shape of the piece, that a large orchestra, which we have heard play at length in opulent orchestration, falls silent except to accompany the much thinner sound of a single stringed instrument for 10 minutes at a stretch, is essentially unsatisfying to me. 

Quote
It's a truism, but a work of art that proves difficult to engage with does have to generate some degree of fascination in the first instance, in order to stimulate the necessary persistence. (As I said, it's taken me many fascinated years of listening to come to admire it as much as I do now, but it did have to intrigue me in the first place or I'd have given up). It sounds as though (for whatever reason) that's not happening for you at the moment, and I doubt the Kennedy is bad enough to provide an explanation. In other words, it seems unlikely that a different recording will solve the problem for you. Probably best to drop it, but if you do choose to persist, I wonder if you might do better in the first instance listening to the second movement a few times. Its sad, gentle and lovely lyricism might help you to feel better disposed towards the work as a whole.
It's quite shocking to see such a profound and exquisite work described as a monstrosity, but as for the third symphony - well he did his best but died before it was finished, and Anthony Payne composed a 'completed' version from Elgar's sketches. The result is astonishingly fine, and sounds a lot more like Elgar than it has any right to do.

A shame Elgar didn't take up a third symphony until it was too late, after so many years of writing so little music of consequence.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 27, 2010, 01:46:18 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 27, 2010, 12:51:29 PM
The overall shape of the piece, that a large orchestra, which we have heard play at length in opulent orchestration, falls silent except to accompany the much thinner sound of a single stringed instrument for 10 minutes at a stretch, is essentially unsatisfying to me.
I've done all I can to explain why I find it one of the most deeply satisfying pieces of music I know; so there's nothing left to say, I think.

QuoteA shame Elgar didn't take up a third symphony until it was too late, after so many years of writing so little music of consequence.
Well of course he was a broken man after the death of his wife, so there was a long gap where he wasn't very productive as a composer. (On the other hand, he did make a large number of recordings during that time, and I wouldn't want to be without those.) It's characteristic, though, that when he did start to compose seriously again, an important part of the third symphony was inspired by yet another female 'muse' (Vera Hockman), and the dialogue with the feminine that's so crucial in the VC plays a significant, indeed unmistakable, role there also.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 27, 2010, 02:17:00 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 27, 2010, 01:46:18 PM
I've done all I can to explain why I find it one of the most deeply satisfying pieces of music I know; so there's nothing left to say, I think.

Don't think I discount your analysis.  I am quite interested in the interplay of themes you describe.  It is the sound of the piece (taken in the viceral sense) that gives me no pleasure.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on April 27, 2010, 07:43:35 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 27, 2010, 01:46:18 PM

Well of course he was a broken man after the death of his wife, so there was a long gap where he wasn't very productive as a composer. (On the other hand, he did make a large number of recordings during that time, and I wouldn't want to be without those.)
I understand he did a lot of revision during this period, and made arrangements of some early pieces, so it wasn't time completely wasted. A bit like Brahms, who spent his last years polishing his legacy.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 27, 2010, 08:57:42 PM
Back to Kennedy, I was leaving Amazon Marketplace feedback and came upon the order for this disc.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41T4K5WZRML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

It cost me 80 cents!   Efficient market theory at work!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2010, 02:10:27 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 27, 2010, 08:57:42 PM
Back to Kennedy, I was leaving Amazon Marketplace feedback and came upon the order for this disc.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41T4K5WZRML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

It cost me 80 cents!   Efficient market theory at work!

Now that you know you hate it, if you want to sell it, I'll give you a buck for it. You'll make a 25% profit  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 28, 2010, 02:48:34 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on April 27, 2010, 07:43:35 PM
I understand he did a lot of revision during this period, and made arrangements of some early pieces, so it wasn't time wasted.
Yes you're right, the period wasn't the complete vacuum that's often supposed. There was the Arthur Suite, for example, which, although it's hardly prime Elgar, is by no means a negligible work (he re-used part of it in the sketches for the 3rd symphony), and it re-emphasises the importance of understanding the chivalric ideal as a key component of Elgar's inspiration.

But even though there was this activity during that late period, there was nothing comparable to the flow of major works (the chamber music, the cello concerto) that had preceded it, until he started work on the 3rd symphony, too late.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 28, 2010, 03:00:22 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 27, 2010, 02:17:00 PM
It is the sound of the piece (taken in the viceral sense) that gives me no pleasure.
I guess that particular aspect could be partly a Kennedy issue. I'd recommend leaving it alone for a while, but maybe keep an eye open for a cheap copy of this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Violin-Concerto-Quartet-Quintet/dp/B0001ZM8VI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1272452126&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Violin-Concerto-Quartet-Quintet/dp/B0001ZM8VI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1272452126&sr=1-1)

Even at full price it's very cheap, and on the 2 CDs you also get the three great chamber works. So even if you decide you don't like Bean's performance either (which is nowhere near as flashy as Kennedy's), at least you get three other pieces of Elgar at his finest.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 28, 2010, 03:51:05 AM
I just want to say that I like Kennedy just fine in the Elgar Vn Cto.  Almost certainly prefer him to la Hahn.

Carry on.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2010, 05:57:35 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 28, 2010, 03:51:05 AM
I just want to say that I like Kennedy just fine in the Elgar Vn Cto.  Almost certainly prefer him to la Hahn.

Carry on.


I do too. I just finished a comparative listen to my three CD versions (Kennedy/Handley, Chung/Solti, and Hahn/Davis) and Kennedy is the best fiddler of the three in this work. Hahn's tone disturbs me: very thin with a constant and same vibrato that becomes irritating...at least it irritated this morning. Chung is "feminine" too but with considerably more grit and a wider range of tonal shades. I really like her, and like too what Solti does with the orchestra: he's very sensitive to his soloist, follows her lead into emotional depths we usually don't associate with this conductor but when on his own, he takes the opportunity to let the orchestra explode. Tuttis are thrilling...I doubt anyone does them better, with more passion. The performance then makes a clear distinction (if I may borrow from Elgarian) between the masculine and feminine elements in the music. I'd be hard-pressed to choose between Chung/Solti and Kennedy/Handley for the desert island.

Thanks to all the folks who've contributed (even negatively--Scarpia is the catalyst of the discussion) I've come to love the concerto even more (and understand it far better thanks to Elgarian). I'm buying more versions. Ehnes/Andrew Davis is on the way and I just ordered Dong-Suk Kang/Leaper which is supposed to be a very different kind of interpretation than we're used to: faster, more volatile.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 28, 2010, 07:34:50 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2010, 05:57:35 AM
I do too. I just finished a comparative listen to my three CD versions (Kennedy/Handley, Chung/Solti, and Hahn/Davis) and Kennedy is the best fiddler of the three in this work. Hahn's tone disturbs me: very thin with a constant and same vibrato that becomes irritating...at least it irritated this morning. Chung is "feminine" too but with considerably more grit and a wider range of tonal shades. I really like her, and like too what Solti does with the orchestra: he's very sensitive to his soloist, follows her lead into emotional depths we usually don't associate with this conductor but when on his own, he takes the opportunity to let the orchestra explode. Tuttis are thrilling...I doubt anyone does them better, with more passion. The performance then makes a clear distinction (if I may borrow from Elgarian) between the masculine and feminine elements in the music. I'd be hard-pressed to choose between Chung/Solti and Kennedy/Handley for the desert island.

Thanks to all the folks who've contributed (even negatively--Scarpia is the catalyst of the discussion) I've come to love the concerto even more (and understand it far better thanks to Elgarian). I'm buying more versions. Ehnes/Andrew Davis is on the way and I just ordered Dong/Leaper which is supposed to be a very different kind of interpretation than we're used to: faster, more volatile.

Sarge

Thanks Sarge.  My Hahn recording arrived today.  What you say about the Chung/Solti sounds intriguing, except that I really didn't like Solti's way with the symphonies, too aggressive and lacking in nuance.  Maybe now that I feel I have a handle on the symphony No 1 I can revisit Solti's performance with more perspective.  Unfortunately, the Chung VC is out of print and cheap copies are hard to come by.

In any case, I hope nobody minds that I play devil's advocate in these threads to try and get people to be forthcoming about what they like about music I'm having difficulty with.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 28, 2010, 08:32:55 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2010, 05:57:35 AM
I just ordered Dong/Leaper which is supposed to be a very different kind of interpretation than we're used to: faster, more volatile.
I think Dong Suk Kang/Leaper is a real firecracker of a version and I'll be very interested to hear what you think of it, Sarge. He really sets it on fire in a way that I love, unlike Kennedy, who (I don't want to labour the point) is too self-consciously virtuoso for me. I was shocked when I first heard the Dong Suk Kang, because it is nothing like my favourite, Bean/Groves, and yet it has a wild, romany flavour to it that entirely convinces me, against the odds. I've often wondered why it's so convincing (when I somehow feel that it oughtn't to be), and the closest I've ever got to an answer is that it allows a different kind of feminity to come through: more Persephone than Demeter, perhaps: more the kind of gal who's more likely to run off with the raggle-taggle gypsies, than settle down one day as somebody's mum.

What Elgar would have thought of it I can't imagine. But if I could only take two Elgar VC recordings to my desert island, they'd be Hugh Bean/Groves and Dong Suk Kang/Leaper. (I should add, though, that I've only heard about a dozen different ones - there are still a lot out there that I'm not familiar with.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Renfield on April 28, 2010, 08:34:41 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 28, 2010, 07:34:50 AM
In any case, I hope nobody minds that I play devil's advocate in these threads to try and get people to be forthcoming about what they like about music I'm having difficulty with.

Let me chip in at this point and see, please, do go on playing devil's advocate! This has been one of the most interesting, absorbing, and informative threads on this forum for quite a while (at least in my estimate).


Re Elgar's violin concerto, I do have at least one of the Kennedy versions, I'm pretty sure I have the Hahn, and also pretty sure I liked it quite a bit; but - call me old fashioned! - I've come to know the piece via Menuhin/Elgar.

My impressions of it have generally focused on the innocence a lot of it projects, down to its seemingly (to me) wandering structure.

I additionally seem to recall I was impressed with Ehnes, whose version I do have somewhere, but bought right before I moved country a couple of years ago and didn't get a chance to rip (like many recordings I tend to mention like this).

If I find it, I'll give it a spin and comment. If not, I assure you (and indeed Elgarian), I will be reading anyway.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 28, 2010, 08:47:07 AM
QuoteIn any case, I hope nobody minds that I play devil's advocate in these threads to try and get people to be forthcoming about what they like about music I'm having difficulty with.
I've had several attempts over the years to try to piece together an account of where I think the greatness of the VC lies, and of how it hangs together, but I can never arrive at a definitive account because my understanding of the piece is in a more or less continual state of flux; changing like a tree, rather than like a cloud, I hope - but changing nonetheless. I suspect there are changes of emphasis brewing every time I listen.

So your original post gave me the opportunity to revisit all that, pool the ideas together, and try to write a coherent account; and although I embarked on it because I hoped it might be helpful to you, by the end I was mainly finding it helpful to me. So carry on, by all means.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 28, 2010, 10:03:37 AM
There will be carrying on in any event, but let me go on record as encouraging the on-carrying.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Franco on April 28, 2010, 10:22:02 AM
Which Kennedy Elgar VC recording is the one under discussion: w/ Handly or the later one w/ Rattle?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 28, 2010, 10:23:30 AM
Well, I only know the one with Rattle.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Franco on April 28, 2010, 10:27:28 AM
Sir Edward Elgar: Violin Concerto in B minor, Op. 61 - Nigel Kennedy / London Philharmonic Orchestra / Vernon Handley (http://www.amazon.com/Sir-Edward-Elgar-Philharmonic-Orchestra/dp/B000002S2A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1272479124&sr=1-1-spell)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 28, 2010, 10:41:45 AM
Quote from: Franco on April 28, 2010, 10:22:02 AM
Which Kennedy Elgar VC recording is the one under discussion: w/ Handly or the later one w/ Rattle?

I started the discussion with Rattle (although I have both recordings) and most of the performance specific comments have been about that one, although Sarge has the Hadley and has discussed his reaction to that one.   I've only listened to the orchestral exposition of Hadley's and by comparison Rattle's seems a lot more driven, Hadley's more noble in tone.  I'm not sure how the Kennedy performances compare.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: springrite on April 28, 2010, 10:45:45 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 28, 2010, 10:41:45 AM
I started the discussion with Rattle (although I have both recordings) and most of the performance specific comments have been about that one, although Sarge has the Hadley and has discussed his reaction to that one.   I've only listened to the orchestral exposition of Hadley's and by comparison Rattle's seems a lot more driven, Hadley's more noble in tone.  I'm not sure how the Kennedy performances compare.

The Rattle is certainly more exciting but for me, the Handley just seems more right. Kennedy is excellent in both.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 28, 2010, 11:47:56 AM
Quote from: Franco on April 28, 2010, 10:22:02 AM
Which Kennedy Elgar VC recording is the one under discussion: w/ Handly or the later one w/ Rattle?
I have both. I bought the Kennedy/Handley expecting great things but never grew to love it; bought the Kennedy/Rattle, later, with hopes that were dampened and misgivings that were confirmed. Brilliant playing, I guess, and I'm aware of the high reputation of both; I prefer the Handley (I agree with the comment about it seeming more 'nobilmente'), but in both the fiddling seems to miss the depths of longing and soul-searching that I feel are so important in this particular work. But it could be said that I'm an Elgar-VC obsessive, which may or may not be a good thing.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on April 28, 2010, 11:59:19 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 28, 2010, 11:47:56 AM
I have both. I bought the Kennedy/Handley expecting great things but never grew to love it; bought the Kennedy/Rattle, later, with hopes that were dampened and misgivings that were confirmed. Brilliant playing, I guess, and I'm aware of the high reputation of both; I prefer the Handley, but they both seem to miss the depths of longing and soul-searching that I feel are so important in this particular work. But it could be said that I'm an Elgar-VC obsessive, which may or may not be a good thing.

I just want to say thank you for your contributions to this thread which I've been reading with great enjoyment and admiration. My understanding and appreciation of the Elgar VC is much as yours is, I think, only you describe things so much more beautifully and passionately than I ever could. Funnily enough, I also share your admiration and preference for Hugh Bean's recording, which I don't think anyone else has commented on - all this discussion of Kennedy and Hahn etc. obscures what a wonderful recording Bean's is, one which I've not heard 'surpassed'. In a funny old way, I'm not sure this doesn't tell us something about the character of the concerto itself - that it's a piece in which a low-profile, thoughtful but not spectacular player with a special connection to the piece seems (to me) to have an advantage over the more powerful, super-charged names who cover it as one step in their leaps from concerto to concerto (I know, I am being dreadfully unfair!). As a concerto, it seems to me, this piece is much the same - and your description of it, to my mind (apologies if I misread you), emphasizes this, particularly the way you describe it drawing into itself in the cadenza rather than charging excitedly for the double bar as it could so easily have done - the way, that is, that it is self-searching and honest and full of integrity.

The Bean is available, very cheaply, on a twofer, with his reading of the VC and the violin sonata on the first disc, and the Allegri Quartet/Ogdon etc in the string quartet and piano quintet on the other disc. It's self-recommending, really
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: springrite on April 28, 2010, 12:25:14 PM
Haven't listened to the Sammons recording for ages and don't remember how I thought of it. Maybe I will pull it out in the next few days...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 28, 2010, 01:29:29 PM
Quote from: Luke on April 28, 2010, 11:59:19 AM
I also share your admiration and preference for Hugh Bean's recording, which I don't think anyone else has commented on - all this discussion of Kennedy and Hahn etc. obscures what a wonderful recording Bean's is, one which I've not heard 'surpassed'. In a funny old way, I'm not sure this doesn't tell us something about the character of the concerto itself - that it's a piece in which a low-profile, thoughtful but not spectacular player with a special connection to the piece seems (to me) to have an advantage over the more powerful, super-charged names who cover it as one step in their leaps from concerto to concerto (I know, I am being dreadfully unfair!). As a concerto, it seems to me, this piece is much the same - and your description of it, to my mind (apologies if I misread you), emphasizes this, particularly the way you describe it drawing into itself in the cadenza rather than charging excitedly for the double bar as it could so easily have done - the way, that is, that it is self-searching and honest and full of integrity.

The Bean is available, very cheaply, on a twofer, with his reading of the VC and the violin sonata on the first disc, and the Allegri Quartet/Ogdon etc in the string quartet and piano quintet on the other disc. It's self-recommending, really
Thanks for those kind comments - I always think that it doesn't matter whether others agree with our opinions about things that we care a lot about (like the Elgar VC in this instance), but it is always very encouraging to discover that we're understood.

I mustn't turn this into a mutual admiration session, but I feel compelled to say that I think you have perfectly nailed the essential character of the Bean recording, better than I could have said it. There's an inner 'quietness' in it - an innate sympathy with the music that has sustained many, many listenings through the years, for me, while the Kennedy fireworks emerge to brighten the sky for a short time and then return to gather dust on the shelf. That 2CD set of Bean/Groves, plus those glorious chamber works, is, as you say, one of the most rewarding Elgar bargains available. Let's promote it once more:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on April 28, 2010, 06:37:56 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2010, 05:57:35 AM
Hahn's tone disturbs me: very thin with a constant and same vibrato that becomes irritating...at least it irritated this morning.
That was my reaction to Bean's playing, sad to say.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 28, 2010, 09:24:54 PM
Queued up this recording this evening:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NoLffO7NL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Now that is much, much, much better than that duo of numskulls, Kennedy and Rattle.  Colin Davis knows what he is doing in this music, and Hahn plays with Lyricism, unlike Kennedy, who sounds like a banshee on amphetamines.   I think I may get to enjoy this piece yet!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 28, 2010, 11:51:04 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on April 28, 2010, 06:37:56 PM
That was my reaction to Bean's playing, sad to say.
There's an interesting hint of a polarisation of preference emerging here, with some lining up on what we might label the 'pro-Kennedy' side of the fence, and others on the opposing side: that is, those who enjoy the VC played with sparks and vigour - dare I say, a more masculine, beefy approach? While others (eg Luke and myself) who are seeking the more reserved approach, perhaps with more emphasis on the soul-wringing longing for the feminine. I'm sure it's by no means so simple as that, but it does suggest that there are at least two contrasting sets of expectations among us, when we approach the piece.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 28, 2010, 11:54:44 PM
QuoteI think I may get to enjoy this piece yet!
I'm almost relieved to hear you say that. There's so much to be discovered in it that it would be such a pity for you to abandon it as a result of a bad initial experience.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Franco on April 29, 2010, 02:53:16 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 28, 2010, 11:51:04 PM
There's an interesting hint of a polarisation of preference emerging here, with some lining up on what we might label the 'pro-Kennedy' side of the fence, and others on the opposing side: that is, those who enjoy the VC played with sparks and vigour - dare I say, a more masculine, beefy approach? While others (eg Luke and myself) who are seeking the more reserved approach, perhaps with more emphasis on the soul-wringing longing for the feminine. I'm sure it's by no means so simple as that, but it does suggest that there are at least two contrasting sets of expectations among us, when we approach the piece.

Where do you place the Menuhin recording?  It's the only one I have in my collection at present.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 29, 2010, 04:02:07 AM
Quote from: Franco on April 29, 2010, 02:53:16 AM
Where do you place the Menuhin recording?  It's the only one I have in my collection at present.

Or the Heifetz? It's the only one I have...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2010, 05:20:23 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 28, 2010, 11:51:04 PM
There's an interesting hint of a polarisation of preference emerging here, with some lining up on what we might label the 'pro-Kennedy' side of the fence, and others on the opposing side: that is, those who enjoy the VC played with sparks and vigour - dare I say, a more masculine, beefy approach? While others (eg Luke and myself) who are seeking the more reserved approach, perhaps with more emphasis on the soul-wringing longing for the feminine. I'm sure it's by no means so simple as that, but it does suggest that there are at least two contrasting sets of expectations among us, when we approach the piece.

I haven't heard Bean (the recording is not that easy to find at a reasonable price in Europe) so I shouldn't even comment here but, yes, you may be right. You characterize Bean as reserved, Luke says "low-profile" and the Gramophone review says the recording balance suits the "reticent nature" of the performance. So, reserved, low-profile, reticent...those are simply not the adjectives that come to mind when I think Late Romantic, which Elgar quintessentially is, as much as Strauss or Mahler. Elgar the man may have been reserved, as circumspect with his feelings as any good stiff-upper-lipped Englishman of his day...but he poured those bottled-up emotions into his music, fully expecting them to be heard clearly, I think. At least that's the way I want the music performed.

Masculine vs feminine probably isn't the best way to describe the interpretive difference between a Kennedy and a Bean (I don't know about you guys, but the women I've known have not been reticent about their feelings  ;D ) but it's a characterization we can all understand. The concerto contains both elements and that's why, the more I listen, the more I think Solti/Chung managed to get it all in perfect balance. The overt passion of the Late Romantic is there--literally exploding at times, almost out of control, but then always tempered by Chung's interjections, as though she's stroking Solti, calming him, figuratively.

But I will acquire the Bean too...I need to hear what all the "reticence" is about  ;)

Quote from: Luke on April 28, 2010, 11:59:19 AM

...that it's a piece in which a low-profile, thoughtful but not spectacular player with a special connection to the piece seems (to me) to have an advantage over the more powerful, super-charged names who cover it as one step in their leaps from concerto to concerto (I know, I am being dreadfully unfair!).

I can't prove this but I think Kennedy's dedication to the concerto is every bit as strong as Bean's. For a star like him, who's had a controversial career, recording the Elgar twice says something positive, I think. (I'm not saying everyone has to like what he's done ;) )

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2010, 05:20:54 AM
Scarps, are you kidding? Hahn plays the Elgar like a frog in a school lab what's just had its nervous system sliced out. The sort of frog which (you suspect) was none the most active even before he gave his life for science.

Give me someone like Kennedy who plays like the music MATTERS.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 29, 2010, 05:28:14 AM
Quote from: Franco on April 29, 2010, 02:53:16 AM
Where do you place the Menuhin recording?  It's the only one I have in my collection at present.
Been working on it for years, and am still hopeful. It's authentic, it's Elgar conducting, Elgar loved the performance ... but although I go back to it at intervals, somehow it doesn't quite make it for me. I have no idea why.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2010, 05:45:50 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 28, 2010, 08:32:55 AM
I think Dong Suk Kang/Leaper is a real firecracker of a version and I'll be very interested to hear what you think of it, Sarge.

I will comment on it when it arrives. Glad to hear such a positive response from you about the performance. I think 71dB loves it too.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 29, 2010, 05:59:02 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2010, 05:20:23 AM
You characterize Bean as reserved, Luke says "low-profile" and the Gramophone review says the recording balance suits the "reticent nature" of the performance. So, reserved, low-profile, reticent...those are simply not the adjectives that come to mind when I think Late Romantic, which Elgar quintessentially is, as much as Strauss or Mahler. Elgar the man may have been reserved, as circumspect with his feelings as any good stiff-upper-lipped Englishman of his day...but he poured those bottled-up emotions into his music, fully expecting them to be heard clearly, I think. At least that's the way I want the music performed.
We're in extremely difficult territory here, because the nuances of meaning are so hard to convey. I'm not suggesting at all that the Bean performance is not emotional. On the contrary, it's heart-breaking, and the concerto, as you rightly say, is deeply emotional - too deep even for tears, one might say in places (though not in others, when my specs go all misty). When I use the word 'reserved' I'm thinking not of emotional reserve, but something I might describe as a 'technical' reserve. I can't listen to Kennedy without frequently feeling that he's playing to impress me. I may of course be mistaken, but that's the kind of experience I get. Now I don't get that with Bean. I feel almost that he's trying to make himself and his abilities invisible - an art that conceals art. He seems to be offering me a window into Elgar's music, whereas Kennedy seems to be saying 'look at me, and at what I can do'; and thereby he gets in the way of what I feel is the emotional heart of the piece. My personal experience of the VC is not at all a stiff upper lip sort of thing (though of course we do hear such things in a lot of Elgar, if only to be shown how fragile they are) - it's deeply emotional.

I'm not having a go at Kennedy - please be assured that I'm not; I can listen to Kennedy's versions and enjoy them. Neither am I saying that Bean is 'better', and neither am I claiming that my way of looking at it is the 'right' way.  I'm just struggling to convey what I perceive as the difference, and I don't know how best to explain it except like this. On the 'feminine' issue - again, I'm not saying that Bean's playing is feminine; rather, that I feel it allows me to hear the feminine aspects (or the longing for the feminine aspects) of the music more clearly, when that's necessary.

QuoteThe concerto contains both elements and that's why, the more I listen, the more I think Solti/Chung managed to get it all in perfect balance. The overt passion of the Late Romantic is there--literally exploding at times, almost out of control, but then always tempered by Chung's interjections, as though she's stroking Solti, calming him, figuratively.
It's a long time since I last gave Solti/Chung a spin; my memory tells me that I struggled to enjoy the Solti side of that partnership (for the very qualities you describe here), but I'll give it another try.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 29, 2010, 06:09:14 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 29, 2010, 05:20:54 AMGive me someone like Kennedy who plays like the music MATTERS.

Not Kennedy, who plays it as though he matters, and his favorite football team (according to the lengthy essay which he wrote for the CD release).  I'll take the ice maiden over the preening Kennedy any day of the week.   ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2010, 06:21:58 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 29, 2010, 05:59:02 AM
It's a long time since I last gave Solti/Chung a spin; my memory tells me that I struggled to enjoy the Solti side of that partnership (for the very qualities you describe here), but I'll give it another try.

If you do give it a listen, I suggest turning your bass control down a bit. Especially in the first movement, there is a lot of intrusive thumping from the podium...it sounds like Solti really got into the music  ;D

I'll reply to the rest of your post later, after I've had a chance to mull it over. By the way, the Ehnes/A.Davis CD arrived today. I'll probably listen to it after dinner. Kang has been ordered but JPC has not yet sent it.

Edit: Not two minutes after I posted the above, I received an email from JPC. Kang is on the way  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2010, 06:40:35 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 29, 2010, 06:09:14 AM
Not Kennedy, who plays it as though he matters

Extraordinary remark, which does not align with my experience of his playing, either on disc, or in person.

But do go on; these remarks gauge your part in the current conversation most colorfully.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 29, 2010, 06:55:10 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 29, 2010, 06:40:35 AM
Extraordinary remark, which does not align with my experience of his playing, either on disc, or in person.

But do go on; these remarks gauge your part in the current conversation most colorfully.


Likewise, great sage.   ::)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2010, 06:55:24 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 29, 2010, 05:59:02 AM
I'm not having a go at Kennedy - please be assured that I'm not; I can listen to Kennedy's versions and enjoy them. Neither am I saying that Bean is 'better', and neither am I claiming that my way of looking at it is the 'right' way.  I'm just struggling to convey what I perceive as the difference, and I don't know how best to explain it except like this.

I didn't think at all you were mudslinging, mon vieux.

This is a story I've told more than once, but perhaps never while you've been taking part, Alan.


At the University of Virginia, there is a concert series arranged not by the University but by a distinct 'impresario organization', with the baldly unimaginative name Tuesday Evening Concert Series (known familiarly as TECS).  My first month at UVa (where I took a Master's degree), I was at the department one Tuesday, and my shoulder was tapped to turn pages for the accompanist at that evening's recital.  So it was that I got to know both the Elgar Violin Sonata, and (not to speak to, of course) Nigel Kennedy, on the same evening.  Fabulous piece (which if anything I like even more than the Concerto, not that I don't like the Concerto a great deal), and a fabulous performance.  The man who played both that Sonata, and the Bartók Solo Sonata, is an artist of the highest calibre, who played that night with a blend of sensitivity and fire which continues to be an example to this clarinetist.

Ask me what I think of anyone who calls Kennedy a "numbskull."  (I haven't heard any musician call him any such thing. Hmmm . . . .)

No, go ahead: ask me.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2010, 06:58:02 AM
Quote from: Luke on April 28, 2010, 11:59:19 AM
I just want to say thank you for your contributions to this thread which I've been reading with great enjoyment and admiration. My understanding and appreciation of the Elgar VC is much as yours is, I think, only you describe things so much more beautifully and passionately than I ever could. Funnily enough, I also share your admiration and preference for Hugh Bean's recording, which I don't think anyone else has commented on - all this discussion of Kennedy and Hahn etc. obscures what a wonderful recording Bean's is, one which I've not heard 'surpassed'. In a funny old way, I'm not sure this doesn't tell us something about the character of the concerto itself - that it's a piece in which a low-profile, thoughtful but not spectacular player with a special connection to the piece seems (to me) to have an advantage over the more powerful, super-charged names who cover it as one step in their leaps from concerto to concerto (I know, I am being dreadfully unfair!). As a concerto, it seems to me, this piece is much the same - and your description of it, to my mind (apologies if I misread you), emphasizes this, particularly the way you describe it drawing into itself in the cadenza rather than charging excitedly for the double bar as it could so easily have done - the way, that is, that it is self-searching and honest and full of integrity.

The Bean is available, very cheaply, on a twofer, with his reading of the VC and the violin sonata on the first disc, and the Allegri Quartet/Ogdon etc in the string quartet and piano quintet on the other disc. It's self-recommending, really

Though this winds up as thanks to Luke, it is also joining the chorus of his thanks to Alan.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2010, 07:01:55 AM
Having a dickens of a time trying to track down that Bean two-fer, though.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2010, 07:04:13 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 29, 2010, 06:55:24 AM
No, go ahead: ask me.

I think Scarpia simply doesn't like football...I mean proper football...and therefore characterizes every hooligan as a numbskull  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2010, 07:04:52 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 29, 2010, 07:01:55 AM
Having a dickens of a time trying to track down that Bean two-fer, though.

Me too...at least a reasonably priced copy.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2010, 07:06:52 AM
Heck, Shostakovich was a football enthusiast.  It's not my thing, but I'm a live-&-let-live kind of guy.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2010, 07:04:52 AM
Me too...at least a reasonably priced copy.

Yes, I've found it so far only in the humongo Elgar box.

And I just ain't going there.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Franco on April 29, 2010, 07:10:39 AM
There's a used (good) copy on Amazon.com for $4.99. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001ZM8VI/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=AVB9VPPZMOOT8)

:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2010, 07:15:24 AM
Franco, you de man!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2010, 07:16:57 AM
Quote from: Franco on April 29, 2010, 07:10:39 AM
There's a used (good) copy on Amazon.com for $4.99. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001ZM8VI/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=AVB9VPPZMOOT8)

:)

Now find one for me in Europe  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2010, 07:18:07 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2010, 07:16:57 AM
Now find one for me in Europe  ;)

Sarge

It was with that consideration that I jumped right on that link without asking you first, Sarge.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2010, 07:19:47 AM
Can you search at amazon.de [sp?] with the criteria:

Label: Angel
ASIN: B0001ZM8VI
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2010, 07:25:38 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 29, 2010, 07:19:47 AM
Can you search at amazon.de [sp?] with the criteria:

Label: Angel
ASIN: B0001ZM8VI

That doesn't work but "Elgar Bean" does of course. The problem is a new one is 25 Euro ($33), the cheapest used 18 ($24)...just too much for budget CDs. I have the same problem at amazon.uk...but I'll keep looking.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2010, 07:27:07 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 29, 2010, 07:18:07 AM
It was with that consideration that I jumped right on that link without asking you first, Sarge.

I understand...and expected it. I rarely buy from amazon.com anyway because shipping costs are so much.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: springrite on April 29, 2010, 07:29:31 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2010, 07:27:07 AM
I understand...and expected it. I rarely buy from amazon.com anyway because shipping costs are so much.

Sarge

It sure cost a hill of Beans...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Franco on April 29, 2010, 07:38:47 AM
Here's inexpensive new & used copies from Amazon.uk. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001ZM8VI/emi-jazz-class-21/ref%3Dnosim)

The CD finder at your service.

:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on April 29, 2010, 07:42:51 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2010, 07:16:57 AM
Now find one for me in Europe  ;)

Sarge

well, when I checked amazon uk yesterday there was one for £4 something (but I bought it, even though I already have it - can't hurt to have two, in case of emergencies :D ) and another at £6 something.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2010, 07:44:28 AM
Thanks to the most interesting remarks of You Know Who You Are, I have just done something I don't believe I ever have done before: ordered three different recordings of the same piece at once.  Hugh Bean, Nikolaj Znaider & Dong-Suk Kang all playing that rare b minor concerto.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2010, 08:29:55 AM
Quote from: Franco on April 29, 2010, 07:38:47 AM
Here's inexpensive new & used copies from Amazon.uk. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001ZM8VI/emi-jazz-class-21/ref%3Dnosim)

The CD finder at your service.

:)

Thanks. Ordered a new one from Music Direct...whoever they are. I had to check their shipping rates just to determine if they were in the UK.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2010, 08:31:19 AM
Quote from: springrite on April 29, 2010, 07:29:31 AM
It sure cost a hill of Beans...

;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 29, 2010, 08:33:50 AM
I think the people at EMI may notice a curious blip in sales of this recording, which may very well have gone months without selling a single unit.   :)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on April 29, 2010, 10:42:24 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 29, 2010, 08:33:50 AM
I think the people at EMI may notice a curious blip in sales of this recording, which may very well have gone months without selling a single unit.   :)
Yep, three sales of used copies should have them champing at the bit to tool up and get this back in print ASAP!  Hugh Bean's agent is frantically booking venues for a world tour, featuring backup dancers in sequined miniskirts acting out the parts of Elgar's would-be lovers as their musical themes battle it out for domination in this blockbuster extravaganza coming soon to a senior center near you!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 29, 2010, 10:55:13 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 29, 2010, 10:42:24 AM
Yep, three sales of used copies should have them champing at the bit to tool up and get this back in print ASAP!  Hugh Bean's agent is frantically booking venues for a world tour, featuring backup dancers in sequined miniskirts acting out the parts of Elgar's would-be lovers as their musical themes battle it out for domination in this blockbuster extravaganza coming soon to a senior center near you!

Some of us got them new.  I know someone who used to work at EMI and was responsible for overseeing royalty payments to artists.  I am told the monthly table contained many zeros.  I'm suggesting Mr. Bean, if he's still living, might have the pleasant surprise of a $3 check from EMI this month. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2010, 11:04:04 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 29, 2010, 10:42:24 AM
. . . featuring backup dancers in sequined miniskirts . . . .

They can't all be named Windflower.

(Can they?)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 29, 2010, 11:10:06 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 29, 2010, 10:42:24 AMfeaturing backup dancers in sequined miniskirts acting out the parts of Elgar's would-be lovers as their musical themes battle it out for domination in this blockbuster extravaganza coming soon to a senior center near you!

Which is why Hilary Hahn is a natural for this concerto.   Maybe a performance in which the various Windflower themes are parceled out to Hahn, Janine Jansen, Julia Fischer, Vilde Frang and Sara Chang.  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Franco on April 29, 2010, 11:19:49 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 29, 2010, 10:42:24 AM
Yep, three sales of used copies should have them champing at the bit to tool up and get this back in print ASAP!  Hugh Bean's agent is frantically booking venues for a world tour, featuring backup dancers in sequined miniskirts acting out the parts of Elgar's would-be lovers as their musical themes battle it out for domination in this blockbuster extravaganza coming soon to a senior center near you!

Unfortuantely, Mr. Bean cannot capitalize on this GMG induced spike in interest - he died in 2004.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 29, 2010, 11:23:48 AM
Quote from: Franco on April 29, 2010, 11:19:49 AM
Unfortuantely, Mr. Bean cannot capitalize on this GMG induced spike in interest - he died recently.

Unfortunately, but I doubt he would have looked good in a sequined miniskirt anyway.   :(
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2010, 11:25:43 AM
Quote from: Franco on April 29, 2010, 11:19:49 AM
Unfortuantely, Mr. Bean cannot capitalize on this GMG induced spike in interest - he died in 2004.

His GMG time came too late!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on April 29, 2010, 11:28:18 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 29, 2010, 11:10:06 AM
Which is why Hilary Hahn is a natural for this concerto.   8)
Not Nigel? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8dq9NodWDY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8dq9NodWDY)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Franco on April 29, 2010, 11:29:05 AM
Hugh Bean
Dedicated violinist and teacher (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/hugh-bean-549267.html)

QuoteOne of the highpoints of his career as soloist came in 1969, when he performed the Elgar Violin Concerto under Sir Adrian Boult, in a concert from the Three Choirs Festival that went out in a BBC broadcast. Bean had had a direct guide to the composer's intentions - Albert Sammons had been Elgar's favourite interpreter of the work - and the broadcast stimulated such enthusiasm that Bean received a bouquet of invitations to repeat his performance elsewhere. In 1972, with Sir Charles Groves, he took the concerto into the HMV studios, making a recording that soon became a classic.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on April 29, 2010, 11:30:03 AM
Quote from: Franco on April 29, 2010, 11:19:49 AM
Unfortuantely, Mr. Bean cannot capitalize on this GMG induced spike in interest - he died in 2004.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 29, 2010, 11:25:43 AM
His GMG time came too late!

Maybe--but at GMG a musician's stock always goes up if he's dead!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 29, 2010, 11:32:06 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 29, 2010, 11:30:03 AM
Maybe--but at GMG a musician's stock always goes up if he's dead!

I was afraid he'd say that!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Franco on April 29, 2010, 11:32:37 AM
Suicide as a career strategy?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 29, 2010, 11:48:28 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 29, 2010, 11:28:18 AM
Not Nigel? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8dq9NodWDY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8dq9NodWDY)

Whew, that's a relief.  I thought you had found a video of him in a sequined miniskirt.   :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on April 29, 2010, 12:18:28 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 29, 2010, 11:48:28 AM
Whew, that's a relief.  I thought you had found a video of him in a sequined miniskirt.   :)
Oh, no--the miniskirts are for these fiddlers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiaOFOMPOBc&feature=related
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on April 29, 2010, 06:12:06 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 28, 2010, 11:51:04 PM
There's an interesting hint of a polarisation of preference emerging here, with some lining up on what we might label the 'pro-Kennedy' side of the fence, and others on the opposing side: that is, those who enjoy the VC played with sparks and vigour - dare I say, a more masculine, beefy approach?
No, for me the problem with Bean is specifically his tone and vibrato. Tone: very thin. Vibrato: constant, niggling. Overall effect like a wasp by my ear. But I seem to be overly sensitive to vibrato. I can't listen to Vengerov's, it drives me up the wall. Rostropovich too, to a lesser extent.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on April 29, 2010, 07:14:08 PM
Prompted by this thread, and the realization that it's been a while since I listened to it, I got out my one version of the VC--Gil Shaham with the CSO (Zinman conducting).
Basic opinion: Shaham pays attention both to the virtuoso moments and the emotional content, although he doesn't play the emotions on maximum.  I saw no indication of the "too many notes" syndrome.
Worst flaw of the recording: there is nothing couples with the Concerto on this disk,  so the CD is only 49 minutes long.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 03:16:09 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 29, 2010, 06:55:24 AMMy first month at UVa (where I took a Master's degree), I was at the department one Tuesday, and my shoulder was tapped to turn pages for the accompanist at that evening's recital.  So it was that I got to know both the Elgar Violin Sonata, and (not to speak to, of course) Nigel Kennedy, on the same evening.  Fabulous piece (which if anything I like even more than the Concerto, not that I don't like the Concerto a great deal), and a fabulous performance.  The man who played both that Sonata, and the Bartók Solo Sonata, is an artist of the highest calibre, who played that night with a blend of sensitivity and fire which continues to be an example to this clarinetist.[/font]
I envy you that experience. It's the kind of thing that's capable of changing one's perception permanently, and brings a special kind of insight that I think is enormously valuable. To be able to forge a special relationship of that sort with a performer, quite apart from the special warmth it induces, makes it easier to be 'open' to the music; one automatically gives the performer the benefit of the doubt, so that the negative 'I don't get that' response becomes 'why did he do that?' - which is more capable of leading us on to new insight.

I never met Hugh Bean, but his recording taught me how to listen to Elgar's violin concerto (and the violin sonata for that matter), way back in the 1970s when I could hardly afford to buy records at all, and certainly not alternative versions. So his recording was for a long time all I had, but over the years as I read more about Elgar, and his letters, and Windflower, and Billy Reed, and so on, I always found that Bean's recording was able to transform the knowledge I'd gathered from the books to a directly felt, musical experience: the sensitivity of his playing always matched so perfectly with what I was reading, and drew me deeper in. I wish that I'd written to tell him so, and thank him. Too late now.

(Incidentally, I was listening, as I wrote this, to the first movement, and from the very first moment that Bean's violin entered, so delicately and sensitively, as if every note of Elgar's is understood, it became impossible to do anything other than stop writing, and listen.)

So you see, look at all this baggage I carry around with me! I can no more expect others to listen to Bean the way I do, than you could expect others to have the special way of listening to Kennedy that you have, Karl. One of the problems we face when we try to describe the differences we hear is that at one level the differences are often extremely subtle, while on another they're crucial. So I think we often exaggerate our response to what we're hearing, when we talk or write about it. To try to balance things a bit, in case anyone suspects me of Beanmania, it may be worth saying that every one of the dozen or so recordings of the Elgar violin concerto that I own is capable of moving me to tears. The fact that Bean/Groves (and to a lesser extent Kang/Leaper) emerges for me as something special doesn't actually mean I think the others are poor. I've never heard a performance of the VC that I thought was poor.

Incidentally, it looks like we're going to have to talk about the wonderful violin sonata sometime.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 30, 2010, 04:31:26 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 03:16:09 AM
Incidentally, it looks like we're going to have to talk about the wonderful violin sonata sometime.

Bring it on! ; )
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on April 30, 2010, 04:33:18 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 03:16:09 AM...to forge a special relationship of that sort with a performer...makes it easier to be 'open' to the music; one automatically gives the performer the benefit of the doubt, so that the negative 'I don't get that' response becomes 'why did he do that?' - which is more capable of leading us on to new insight.
Cool, Alan.   8)  This observation drives to the heart of what has proven among the most valuable lessons of my life:  when I listen to understand instead of to oppose, I learn.  My world expands.  Perhaps compassion is what opens our minds to understanding...especially when others seem different or strange, when the way they play or the words they say assail us with new perspectives that challenge us to stray from the comfortable security of the familiar.  Compassion enables us to welcome the challenge instead of resisting it, and thus to see with new eyes, hear with new ears, and discover what may be of value in the points of view others offer.

Having said all that, I'm still not sure that I'm ready for Bean's take on Elgar.

(http://facebook-advertising-marketing.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/mrbean-270x300.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 30, 2010, 04:34:17 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 03:16:09 AM
I envy you that experience. It's the kind of thing that's capable of changing one's perception permanently, and brings a special kind of insight that I think is enormously valuable. To be able to forge a special relationship of that sort with a performer, quite apart from the special warmth it induces, makes it easier to be 'open' to the music; one automatically gives the performer the benefit of the doubt, so that the negative 'I don't get that' response becomes 'why did he do that?' - which is more capable of leading us on to new insight.

I never met Hugh Bean, but his recording taught me how to listen to Elgar's violin concerto (and the violin sonata for that matter), way back in the 1970s when I could hardly afford to buy records at all, and certainly not alternative versions. So his recording was for a long time all I had, but over the years as I read more about Elgar, and his letters, and Windflower, and Billy Reed, and so on, I always found that Bean's recording was able to transform the knowledge I'd gathered from the books to a directly felt, musical experience: the sensitivity of his playing always matched so perfectly with what I was reading, and drew me deeper in. I wish that I'd written to tell him so, and thank him. Too late now.

(Incidentally, I was listening, as I wrote this, to the first movement, and from the very first moment that Bean's violin entered, so delicately and sensitively, as if every note of Elgar's is understood, it became impossible to do anything other than stop writing, and listen.)

So you see, look at all this baggage I carry around with me! I can no more expect others to listen to Bean the way I do, than you could expect others to have the special way of listening to Kennedy that you have, Karl. One of the problems we face when we try to describe the differences we hear is that at one level the differences are often extremely subtle, while on another they're crucial. So I think we often exaggerate our response to what we're hearing, when we talk or write about it. To try to balance things a bit, in case anyone suspects me of Beanmania, it may be worth saying that every one of the dozen or so recordings of the Elgar violin concerto that I own is capable of moving me to tears. The fact that Bean/Groves (and to a lesser extent Kang/Leaper) emerges for me as something special doesn't actually mean I think the others are poor. I've never heard a performance of the VC that I thought was poor.

A thorough pleasure to read, thank you!  Looking forward to getting to know the Bean and Kang recordings!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 04:40:46 AM
Due to a chronic condition I've decided to limit my contributions to short bursts for a few days. Hoping that will relieve the painful symptoms. And too, I have Kang on the way from JPC, Bean en route from the UK (just got an email from the seller) and the Ehnes/A. Davis in my hands now. I'll write up my impressions of all three next week.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 30, 2010, 04:41:10 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 30, 2010, 04:33:18 AM
Cool, Alan.   8)  This observation drives to the heart of what has proven among the most valuable lessons of my life:  when I listen to understand instead of to oppose, I learn.  My world expands.  Perhaps compassion is what opens our minds to understanding [. . . .]

This really hit me (not that it was a new idea) when I read it very simply put in the foreword of Jazz by Gary Giddins and Scott DeVeaux:

QuoteAll music—all art, all entertainment—requires empathy [. . . .]

What I find myself to be increasingly aware of, participating in Internet music discussion fora, is how many of us seem to take their empathy for certain [pieces/composers/performers/recordings], and employ that as a bridgehead to assail [pieces/composers/performers/recordings] for which they somehow do not have empathy.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:07:30 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 25, 2010, 01:50:14 PM
Have you given the Hahn recording a spin yet, Alan?
I've been taking a peek at a couple of reviews of Ms Hahn's version, and they don't make for encouraging reading. Here's Gramophone:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/November%202004/60/849308/Elgar+Vaughan+Williams+Elgar+Violin+Concerto+Vaughan+Williams+The+Lark+Ascending+Hilary+Hahn+vn+London+Symphony+Orchestra++Sir+Colin+Davis+DG+0+474+5042+....+8732+%2866+%E2%80%A2+DDD%29 (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/November%202004/60/849308/Elgar+Vaughan+Williams+Elgar+Violin+Concerto+Vaughan+Williams+The+Lark+Ascending+Hilary+Hahn+vn+London+Symphony+Orchestra++Sir+Colin+Davis+DG+0+474+5042+....+8732+%2866+%E2%80%A2+DDD%29)

and here's MusicWeb:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Sept04/Elgar_Hahn.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Sept04/Elgar_Hahn.htm)

Both a bit worrying, really, when I add your comments to those, Karl. Point is, I don't have Ehnes, and I don't have Zehetmair (to name only more recent ones among many others), both of which I'd like to try - and so I'm wondering whether I really want to spend £10 on Ms Hahn's recording at this stage. I think I shall pass for the moment, and keep an eye open for a cheap 2nd hand copy.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:12:16 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 04:40:46 AM
Due to a chronic condition I've decided to limit my contributions to short bursts for a few days. Hoping that will relieve the painful symptoms. And too, I have Kang on the way from JPC, Bean en route from the UK (just got an email from the seller) and the Ehnes/A. Davis in my hands now. I'll write up my impressions of all three next week.
Sorry to hear you're suffering, Sarge. At least you have in your hands, and in the post, the potential to alleviate the symptoms through ennobling distraction!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on April 30, 2010, 05:16:03 AM
Hope you feel better soon, Sarge.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:19:56 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 30, 2010, 04:33:18 AM
Perhaps compassion is what opens our minds to understanding...especially when others seem different or strange, when the way they play or the words they say assail us with new perspectives that challenge us to stray from the comfortable security of the familiar.  Compassion enables us to welcome the challenge instead of resisting it, and thus to see with new eyes, hear with new ears, and discover what may be of value in the points of view others offer.
Interesting choice of word there, Dave: couple that with Karl's 'empathy' and we're getting very close to the real centre of not only the 'art experience' but also the essential core of  human experience. Which of course is why art is capable of making such profound changes in us, when we're receptive enough to allow it.

QuoteHaving said all that, I'm still not sure that I'm ready for Bean's take on Elgar.
(http://facebook-advertising-marketing.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/mrbean-270x300.jpg)
I don't think the World is ready for it, actually. His deeply misunderstood technique is based on his revolutionary recognition that the violin has hitherto been used by all players with the wrong end under the chin.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on April 30, 2010, 05:22:04 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:07:30 AM
I've been taking a peek at a couple of reviews of Ms Hahn's version, and they don't make for encouraging reading.
Discouraging, indeed.  Sure glad I wasn't swayed by them before getting my copy!  It seems as if Ms Hahn's success has bred the inevitable backlash.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery, Sarge!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:24:49 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 30, 2010, 04:41:10 AM
What I find myself to be increasingly aware of, participating in Internet music discussion fora, is how many of us seem to take their empathy for certain [pieces/composers/performers/recordings], and employ that as a bridgehead to assail [pieces/composers/performers/recordings] for which they somehow do not have empathy.
It's said that if you look closely at the two fish in the Python fish-slapping dance, one is labelled Empathy and the other, Compassion.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 30, 2010, 05:25:06 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 30, 2010, 05:22:04 AM
Discouraging, indeed.  Sure glad I wasn't swayed by them before getting my copy!  It seems as if Ms Hahn's success has bred the inevitable backlash.

That may be (probably in those reviews, which I have not read) . . . but my less-than-complete satisfaction with the recording is just a matter between my ears, so to speak.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 30, 2010, 05:26:10 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:24:49 AM
It's said that if you look closely at the two fish in the Python fish-slapping dance, one is labelled Empathy and the other, Compassion.

I dread to think of the Name of the fish in John Cleese's hands.

— Oh! Must be Eric!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 05:32:58 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on April 30, 2010, 05:16:03 AM
Hope you feel better soon, Sarge.

Thank you but I remain pessimistic for now. They can't find a cause for what's ailing me. Giving up my computer for a few days, or a few weeks, would ease the discomfort but that's not causing my symptoms, only aggravating them. I need Dr. House  :D

Quote from: DavidRoss on April 30, 2010, 05:22:04 AM
Discouraging, indeed.  Sure glad I wasn't swayed by them before getting myIt seems as if Ms Hahn's success has bred the inevitable backlash.

While I agree wth some of the criticism (a lack of tonal variety is my biggest complaint against her playing) I think they are way too harsh on her and Davis. The truth, I think, lies somewhere between Gramophone's put down and Hurwitz's 10/10 rave.

QuoteBest wishes for a speedy recovery, Sarge!

Thanks, David.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 05:37:47 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:07:30 AM
I've been taking a peek at a couple of reviews of Ms Hahn's version, and they don't make for encouraging reading. Here's Gramophone:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/November%202004/60/849308/Elgar+Vaughan+Williams+Elgar+Violin+Concerto+Vaughan+Williams+The+Lark+Ascending+Hilary+Hahn+vn+London+Symphony+Orchestra++Sir+Colin+Davis+DG+0+474+5042+....+8732+%2866+%E2%80%A2+DDD%29 (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/November%202004/60/849308/Elgar+Vaughan+Williams+Elgar+Violin+Concerto+Vaughan+Williams+The+Lark+Ascending+Hilary+Hahn+vn+London+Symphony+Orchestra++Sir+Colin+Davis+DG+0+474+5042+....+8732+%2866+%E2%80%A2+DDD%29)

and here's MusicWeb:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Sept04/Elgar_Hahn.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Sept04/Elgar_Hahn.htm)

Both a bit worrying, really, when I add your comments to those, Karl. Point is, I don't have Ehnes, and I don't have Zehetmair (to name only more recent ones among many others), both of which I'd like to try - and so I'm wondering whether I really want to spend £10 on Ms Hahn's recording at this stage. I think I shall pass for the moment, and keep an eye open for a cheap 2nd hand copy.

Oh, piffle.  One one thing I learned from this review is the Hilary Hahn is not British.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 05:40:32 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:12:16 AM
Sorry to hear you're suffering, Sarge. At least you have in your hands, and in the post, the potential to alleviate the symptoms through ennobling distraction!

I do indeed  :)  ..matter of fact, the postwoman just now delivered the JPC package that includes Kang.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 05:42:25 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 05:40:32 AM
I do indeed  :)  ..matter of fact, the postwoman just now delivered the JPC package that includes Kang.

Sarge

Now, now, we don't want to be listening to something that will get us all excited.  Best to queue up a dozen or so recordings of Pachbel's Canon.   8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:43:45 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 05:40:32 AM
I do indeed  :)  ..matter of fact, the postwoman just now delivered the JPC package that includes Kang.
Prepare yourself to be whisked away into the alternative raggle-taggle gypsy world of Windflower!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:58:27 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 05:37:47 AM
Oh, piffle.  One one thing I learned from this review is the Hilary Hahn is not British.
Well, not having heard the recording I can't say anything directly about the piffleness coefficient of those reviews, but I'm concerned about statements like this:

'After the LSO's portentous opening to the work Hahn enters with limply defined tone and half-hearted expression. What should be a moment of magical wonder (identical almost to the soloists first entry in Beethoven's concerto) passes as nondescript ambivalence.'

The reviewer wins my sympathy by his recognition of how special that first violin entry is in this concerto (in fact I was talking about this in an earlier post, commenting on the sensitivity of Bean's first entry). 'Magical wonder' it is, indeed. So if he thinks Hahn hasn't captured that, it gives me pause. Doesn't mean I'll agree with him when I listen to it myself, but it's an interesting thing for him to say, from my point of view.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 30, 2010, 06:00:11 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 04:40:46 AM
Due to a chronic condition I've decided to limit my contributions to short bursts for a few days. Hoping that will relieve the painful symptoms. And too, I have Kang on the way from JPC, Bean en route from the UK (just got an email from the seller) and the Ehnes/A. Davis in my hands now. I'll write up my impressions of all three next week.

Sarge

Sorry to hear that. Perhaps a dose of Elgar every four hours (and a pretty cover) will help? And if not - at least no side effects (except good ones I would think).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 06:09:14 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:58:27 AM
Well, not having heard the recording I can't say anything directly about the piffleness coefficient of those reviews, but I'm concerned about statements like this:

'After the LSO's portentous opening to the work Hahn enters with limply defined tone and half-hearted expression. What should be a moment of magical wonder (identical almost to the soloists first entry in Beethoven's concerto) passes as nondescript ambivalence.'

The reviewer wins my sympathy by his recognition of how special that first violin entry is in this concerto (in fact I was talking about this in an earlier post, commenting on the sensitivity of Bean's first entry). 'Magical wonder' it is, indeed. So if he thinks Hahn hasn't captured that, it gives me pause. Doesn't mean I'll agree with him when I listen to it myself, but it's an interesting thing for him to say, from my point of view.

I find the statement more telling about the reviewer than the review.   I think the violin should enter with some delicacy, not an overwrought, melodramatic outburst.  In fact, my problem with Kennedy was that he seemed to think it was necessary to torture every music phrase in the piece as if to represent a soul writhing in the lowest circle of Dante's inferno.  Grace and poise, which Hahn exhibits, are not bad attributes in this music, to my mind.  My main problem with the recording is the unnatural acoustic I associate with Abbey Road.  I wish they had recorded it in a proper concert hall.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 06:20:41 AM
Just been trawling through the Gramophone archive. Because the Bean/Groves Elgar VC has been reissued so many times, there have been quite a lot of reviews of it down the years, and I've found it a great pleasure this afternoon to dredge them up and compare notes with them. Here they are, in case anyone else is interested:

1973:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/July%201973/44/820954/ELGAR.+Violin+Concerto+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61.+Hugh+Bean+%28violin%29%2C+Royal+Liver+pool+Philharmonic+Orchestra+conducted+by+Sir+Charles+Groves.+HMV+ASD2883+%28J228%29. (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/July%201973/44/820954/ELGAR.+Violin+Concerto+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61.+Hugh+Bean+%28violin%29%2C+Royal+Liver+pool+Philharmonic+Orchestra+conducted+by+Sir+Charles+Groves.+HMV+ASD2883+%28J228%29.)

1980:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/January%201980/41/823828/Orchestra+conducted+by+Sir+Charles+Groves. (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/January%201980/41/823828/Orchestra+conducted+by+Sir+Charles+Groves.)

1993:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/September%201993/50/761559/+Elgar+Concerto+for+Violin+and+Orchestra+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61a.+Sonata+for+Violin+and+Piano+in+E+minor%2C+Op.+82b+Hugh+Bean+%28vn%29+bDavid+Parkhouse+%28p1%29.+aYj+Liverpool+Philharmonic+Orchestra+I+Sir+Charles+Groves. (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/September%201993/50/761559/+Elgar+Concerto+for+Violin+and+Orchestra+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61a.+Sonata+for+Violin+and+Piano+in+E+minor%2C+Op.+82b+Hugh+Bean+%28vn%29+bDavid+Parkhouse+%28p1%29.+aYj+Liverpool+Philharmonic+Orchestra+I+Sir+Charles+Groves.)

2004:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/November%202004/69/849326/Elgar (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/November%202004/69/849326/Elgar)

There's an honorable mention in passing from 1997 here:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/October%201997/62/861522/Elgar+Concerto+for+Violin+and+Orchestra+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61.+Polonia%2C+Op.+76b%2C+Ida+Haendel+%28vn%29+BBC+Symphony+Orchestra+I+Sir+John+Pritchard+18BC+Northern+Symphony+Orchestra+I+SirAndriej+Panufnik. (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/October%201997/62/861522/Elgar+Concerto+for+Violin+and+Orchestra+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61.+Polonia%2C+Op.+76b%2C+Ida+Haendel+%28vn%29+BBC+Symphony+Orchestra+I+Sir+John+Pritchard+18BC+Northern+Symphony+Orchestra+I+SirAndriej+Panufnik.)

Then there's a roundup of a whole string of versions of the VC speading over several pages, here, from 1998:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/February%201998/28/746969/Elgars (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/February%201998/28/746969/Elgars)

Some interesting comments in these last two about Kang, too.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 30, 2010, 06:22:51 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:43:45 AM
Prepare yourself to be whisked away into the alternative raggle-taggle gypsy world of Windflower!

All I can say is: Zowie!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on April 30, 2010, 06:23:37 AM
Or perhaps even, Wowie zowie!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 06:33:40 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 06:20:41 AM
Just been trawling through the Gramophone archive. Because the Bean/Groves Elgar VC has been reissued so many times, there have been quite a lot of reviews of it down the years, and I've found it a great pleasure this afternoon to dredge them up and compare notes with them. Here they are, in case anyone else is interested:

1973:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/July%201973/44/820954/ELGAR.+Violin+Concerto+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61.+Hugh+Bean+%28violin%29%2C+Royal+Liver+pool+Philharmonic+Orchestra+conducted+by+Sir+Charles+Groves.+HMV+ASD2883+%28J228%29. (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/July%201973/44/820954/ELGAR.+Violin+Concerto+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61.+Hugh+Bean+%28violin%29%2C+Royal+Liver+pool+Philharmonic+Orchestra+conducted+by+Sir+Charles+Groves.+HMV+ASD2883+%28J228%29.)

1980:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/January%201980/41/823828/Orchestra+conducted+by+Sir+Charles+Groves. (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/January%201980/41/823828/Orchestra+conducted+by+Sir+Charles+Groves.)

1993:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/September%201993/50/761559/+Elgar+Concerto+for+Violin+and+Orchestra+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61a.+Sonata+for+Violin+and+Piano+in+E+minor%2C+Op.+82b+Hugh+Bean+%28vn%29+bDavid+Parkhouse+%28p1%29.+aYj+Liverpool+Philharmonic+Orchestra+I+Sir+Charles+Groves. (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/September%201993/50/761559/+Elgar+Concerto+for+Violin+and+Orchestra+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61a.+Sonata+for+Violin+and+Piano+in+E+minor%2C+Op.+82b+Hugh+Bean+%28vn%29+bDavid+Parkhouse+%28p1%29.+aYj+Liverpool+Philharmonic+Orchestra+I+Sir+Charles+Groves.)

2004:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/November%202004/69/849326/Elgar (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/November%202004/69/849326/Elgar)

There's an honorable mention in passing from 1997 here:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/October%201997/62/861522/Elgar+Concerto+for+Violin+and+Orchestra+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61.+Polonia%2C+Op.+76b%2C+Ida+Haendel+%28vn%29+BBC+Symphony+Orchestra+I+Sir+John+Pritchard+18BC+Northern+Symphony+Orchestra+I+SirAndriej+Panufnik. (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/October%201997/62/861522/Elgar+Concerto+for+Violin+and+Orchestra+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61.+Polonia%2C+Op.+76b%2C+Ida+Haendel+%28vn%29+BBC+Symphony+Orchestra+I+Sir+John+Pritchard+18BC+Northern+Symphony+Orchestra+I+SirAndriej+Panufnik.)

Then there's a roundup of a whole string of versions of the VC speading over several pages, here, from 1998:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/February%201998/28/746969/Elgars (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/February%201998/28/746969/Elgars)

Some interesting comments in these last two about Kang, too.

From the first review:

QuoteWhen I first heard his opening entry I felt it lacked the kind of dramatic authority and command of Sammons and yet when one rehears it the very undramatic nature of his intervention seems part and parcel of his view of the work as a whole. it is as if the solo voice grows out of the exposition; he is the quiet voice of conscience rather than the dominating and forceful virtuoso; he is primus inter pares rather than the challenger of the orchestra.

Sounds like your Grammophon reviewer who ripped into Hahn would say the same of Bean.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 06:35:07 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 06:09:14 AM
I think the violin should enter with some delicacy, not an overwrought, melodramatic outburst.
Certainly it should, and indeed that was my point, and why his comment interests me. Does the reviewer (who nowhere mentions Kennedy, I think) imply that he thinks it should be a melodramatic outburst? I can't find any such implication.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 06:40:51 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 06:33:40 AM
From the first review:

Sounds like your Grammophon reviewer who ripped into Hahn would say the same of Bean.
Possible indeed, though I've yet to find out for myself whether Hahn's approach in any way resembles Bean's other than in being describable with words like 'graceful'. Until I've heard Hahn, and you've heard Bean, we can't reach any sensible conclusion between us about any of this.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: springrite on April 30, 2010, 06:41:16 AM
Saw this and wondered what it's all about and if it may be worth a listen:

Elgar, Violin Sonata {Paul Robertson w.J.Bingham, piano}; 'Wood Magic' (An account, told, as far as possible, in Elgar's own words or in those of friends and contemporaries, of how he came to write 4 pieces composed in 1918-19. Performed by Richard Pasco & Barbara Leigh-Hunt. Includes many musical excerpts performed by Medici String Quartet et al. Total time: 72'36')
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 06:52:16 AM
Quote from: springrite on April 30, 2010, 06:41:16 AM
Saw this and wondered what it's all about and if it may be worth a listen:

Elgar, Violin Sonata {Paul Robertson w.J.Bingham, piano}; 'Wood Magic' (An account, told, as far as possible, in Elgar's own words or in those of friends and contemporaries, of how he came to write 4 pieces composed in 1918-19. Performed by Richard Pasco & Barbara Leigh-Hunt. Includes many musical excerpts performed by Medici String Quartet et al. Total time: 72'36')
Thanks for this. Have you seen it for sale anywhere? I can find a CD called 'Wood Magic' which contains the string quartet and the piano quintet, but seems to be only the music, with no narrative so far as I can see.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: springrite on April 30, 2010, 07:14:40 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 06:52:16 AM
Thanks for this. Have you seen it for sale anywhere? I can find a CD called 'Wood Magic' which contains the string quartet and the piano quintet, but seems to be only the music, with no narrative so far as I can see.

I saw it at BRO. In addition to the violin sonata, I am wondering what the works discussed (and excerpts played) may be?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 07:28:34 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 05:42:25 AM
Now, now, we don't want to be listening to something that will get us all excited.  Best to queue up a dozen or so recordings of Pachbel's Canon.   8)

Following Dr. Scarpia's advice, I put this in the player:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/new/PCanon.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 08:12:17 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 07:28:34 AM
Following Dr. Scarpia's advice, I put this in the player:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/new/PCanon.jpg)


Sarge

At the very least you'll soon be asleep and resting comfortably. 

In any case, hope you've soon recovered so we can benefit from your wisdom and prodigious record collection.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 09:01:01 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 06:35:07 AM
Certainly it should, and indeed that was my point, and why his comment interests me. Does the reviewer (who nowhere mentions Kennedy, I think) imply that he thinks it should be a melodramatic outburst? I can't find any such implication.

He blames Hahn for "half hearted expression" then for failing to produce "magical wonder."   This is the sort of review which really puts me off the reviewer, blaming the performer because he did not experience the emotional reaction he wanted to experience at a certain point.  Frankly, I'm not interested in whether the reviewer experienced magical wonder, I'm interested in what the performance and recording sounded like.  I like reviews which are descriptive without being judgemental.

Hahn seemed more "magical" to me than Kennedy/Rattle, which struck me as rushed, mostly because Rattle didn't let the orchestra dwell on the low chord the resonates after the violin completes that initial statement.  If anything, Kennedy/Handley was the best at that particular point because Handley knew what he was doing there (noblissimente, and all that).  For me the entry is a point of repose before launching into the maelstrom and Hahn/Davis did it right, magical wonder notwithstanding.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on April 30, 2010, 10:15:33 AM
Gee whillikers!  Y'all keep talking about those durned records 'n' I just might have to listen to both of 'em to see fer muhsef who's got the inside track on magical wonder. 

Though I note that Achenbach (the gramophone reviewer who dissed Hahn's Elgar) lurves Kennedy/Rattle in the piece: http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/February%201998/28/746969/Elgars#header-logo  So is it any wonder that he's impervious to the charm of Hahn's comparative restraint?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 11:19:47 AM
Hmmm, anyone have an opinion of Perlman/Barenboim?  The stakes are low in this game, I got the Kennedy for 80 cents, the Hahn for $4, and the Perlman can be had for $2.50.  Only the Bean cost me a kings ransom.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 12:10:34 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 09:01:01 AM
Frankly, I'm not interested in whether the reviewer experienced magical wonder
Whenever you and I have a discussion I always feel that if there's a wrong end of the stick to be grasped, we will grasp it. To clarify, then: I'm not defending the reviewer, or his style of reviewing - merely observing that he has identified what I've always believed to be a key point in the concerto (which I too might consider calling 'magical'), and that he recognises that it needs very special treatment. That tells me that the reviewer may have an understanding of this concerto that I can relate to, and that's why I find his comments less derisory than you do - and therefore possibly useful to me, if not to you. And now, given that I haven't even heard this controversial recording yet (!), enough about this fellow and his magical wonder. Let's get to the music!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 12:16:19 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 11:19:47 AMOnly the Bean cost me a kings ransom.
It's been around so long now as a revered classic, that I suppose it's acquired antique value....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 12:52:48 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 12:10:34 PM
Whenever you and I have a discussion I always feel that if there's a wrong end of the stick to be grasped, we will grasp it. To clarify, then: I'm not defending the reviewer, or his style of reviewing - merely observing that he has identified what I've always believed to be a key point in the concerto (which I too might consider calling 'magical'), and that he recognises that it needs very special treatment. That tells me that the reviewer may have an understanding of this concerto that I can relate to, and that's why I find his comments less derisory than you do - and therefore possibly useful to me, if not to you. And now, given that I haven't even heard this controversial recording yet (!), enough about this fellow and his magical wonder. Let's get to the music!

I am not anti-magical wonder.  But magical wonder is not a property of the music, it is a property of the person listening to the music. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on April 30, 2010, 02:15:25 PM
     
     (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

     I didn't even know this recording existed until I read about it here. So I ordered it immediately from Amazon yoo kay. It's OOS, so I don't know how long it will take to get it.

     My take on the Kennedy and Bean interpretations of The Lark Ascending is that they occupy adjacent space in terms of emotion and overall approach. If I prefer Bean in this work it wouldn't say anything negative about Kennedy. I never listen to the other Lark's in my collection. Maybe I'll do that tonight since all my RVW is on the Pod.

     
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 12:16:19 PM
It's been around so long now as a revered classic, that I suppose it's acquired antique value....

      I once conducted a search for Bean recordings and missed this one.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on April 30, 2010, 03:52:14 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:58:27 AM
Well, not having heard the recording I can't say anything directly about the piffleness coefficient of those reviews, but I'm concerned about statements like this:

'After the LSO's portentous opening to the work Hahn enters with limply defined tone and half-hearted expression. What should be a moment of magical wonder (identical almost to the soloists first entry in Beethoven's concerto) passes as nondescript ambivalence.'

The reviewer wins my sympathy by his recognition of how special that first violin entry is in this concerto (in fact I was talking about this in an earlier post, commenting on the sensitivity of Bean's first entry). 'Magical wonder' it is, indeed. So if he thinks Hahn hasn't captured that, it gives me pause. Doesn't mean I'll agree with him when I listen to it myself, but it's an interesting thing for him to say, from my point of view.

I played the Shaham/Zinman (CSO) recording again, and I think Shaham captures that first entry near perfect--almost (but not quite totally) organically growing out of the orchestra.  The next few minutes, and much of the first movement in general, can best be described as meditative or introspective, although the extrovert element gets its proper share in due course. 
Have not heard Mlle. Hahn, nor Messrs. Bean and Kennedy, so I have no idea of how Shaham compares head to head with them here.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 01, 2010, 01:53:31 AM
Quote from: drogulus on April 30, 2010, 02:15:25 PM
My take on the Kennedy and Bean interpretations of The Lark Ascending is that they occupy adjacent space in terms of emotion and overall approach. If I prefer Bean in this work it wouldn't say anything negative about Kennedy.
An eminently reasonable approach to take, I'd say. I could certainly wonder how I'd view these two alternatives if history had switched, and I'd been introduced to the Elgar VC through Kennedy, years before I heard Bean. Unanswerable, of course.

I hope you manage to get the Bean VC - it's clear from your comments here that you know what to expect, so I think you'll find it worth the trouble to obtain it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 01, 2010, 06:52:08 AM
       I received the order confirmation right away. They'll send me another notice when they ship it.

       The Hugh Bean recording of The Lark Ascending was my introduction to his playing more than 30 years ago. As I compared his approach to the piece to others I heard it occurred to me that the absence of certain virtuoso flourishes is the key.

      Would this be true in the Elgar Concerto as well? You might not think so. Elgar is not at all a "folkish" composer like Vaughan Williams. Yet the example of Nigel Kennedy's interpretation of the VC suggests that it pays to apply a rule of understatement by comparison to the norm for Continental composers.

      What about the Cello Concerto? What about Dupre/Barbirolli? I don't think any rule can cope with the example of what works. Second, I'm not referring to emotional intensity but rather the stylistic cues that virtuoso performers give off. Dupre uses a skinny vibrato, characteristically British to my ears. Or maybe it isn't British in any exclusive sense but often works well for British composers and not just EE and RVW. Why? I don't know, but one possible reason why I hear this understated way of playing as "correct" is my savage hatred of '80s hair bands and their wobbly vocal and guitar parts. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 01, 2010, 07:47:11 AM
Quote from: drogulus on May 01, 2010, 06:52:08 AM
The Hugh Bean recording of The Lark Ascending was my introduction to his playing more than 30 years ago. As I compared his approach to the piece to others I heard it occurred to me that the absence of certain virtuoso flourishes is the key.
I think 'the absence of certain virtuoso flourishes' is indeed a feature - at least, it is for me, as for you. When Elgar is described as a Late Romantic, it's true of course, but that's by no means the end of the story. In the violin concerto the big contrast, for me, is not between extrovert display of feeling and introverted contemplation, but rather between the face that he presents to the world (including perhaps the face that he feels he ought to present), and all the inner misgivings, private soul-searchings, and so on. That's different to the sort of heart-on-sleeve emotional thrashing about and tearing-up-my-comics that one might be tempted to associate with Romanticism.

I find these things are really impossible to justify in any technical sense, but this is where Bean hits the mark, for me. It's the subtlety of Elgar's position that's so difficult to capture, but which Bean seems to understand. I can see why someone might complain about 'thin tone' or 'too much vibrato' as I think Eyeresist did earlier (not that I do, myself), but for me such things seem insignificant in comparison with the deep understanding of the personality of the music. If it were just Elgar pouring out his personal feelings, I think I'd find it tiresome; but what he seems to tap into is something universal - struggling to achieve a balance between what's expected of us by the world, and what we secretly long for, and anguish over. That ever-so-delicate line is one that Bean walks perfectly, I think.

QuoteWhat about the Cello Concerto? What about Dupre/Barbirolli?
Do you know Beatrice Harrison's cello concerto, with Elgar himself conducting? Despite the fact that du Pre has made the cello concerto entirely her own, it's Beatrice Harrison that I find myself returning to again and again - perhaps for its 'characteristic Englishness' as you put it.

QuoteElgar is not at all a "folkish" composer like Vaughan Williams.
Yes, although from the very beginning I've always grouped Elgar's Introduction and Allegro with RVW's Tallis Fantasia, as being closer together in spirit than almost any other pieces they wrote - and there are other examples. However, that's another story.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 01, 2010, 08:42:49 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 01, 2010, 07:47:11 AM


I can see why someone might complain about 'thin tone' or 'too much vibrato' as I think Eyeresist did earlier (not that I do, myself), but for me such things seem insignificant in comparison with the deep understanding of the personality of the music.

     Thin tone I understand, but too much vibrato? I need to hear this recording.


Quote from: Elgarian on May 01, 2010, 07:47:11 AM

Yes, although from the very beginning I've always grouped Elgar's Introduction and Allegro with RVW's Tallis Fantasia, as being closer together in spirit than almost any other pieces they wrote - and there are other examples. However, that's another story.
The first decade of the 20th century strikes me a compressed recapitulation of various strands in English music going back to the early Baroque. They were making up for lost time, as though the failure of English composers to figure internationally after the 17th century required the generations that came just before and after 1900 to reach back beyond that period for inspiration, or at least before 1750.

     You can add Holst's St. Paul's Suite in there, which dates from 1913.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 01, 2010, 09:01:06 AM
Quote from: drogulus on May 01, 2010, 08:42:49 AM
     Thin tone I understand, but too much vibrato? I need to hear this recording.

This comment came from the poster whose signature solicits recordings with no vibrato.  I'm still waiting for my copy to arrive, but I doubt vibrato will be an issue.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 01, 2010, 09:02:44 AM
Quote from: drogulus on May 01, 2010, 08:42:49 AM
     Thin tone I understand, but too much vibrato? I need to hear this recording.
See #680 for his exact description ('constant and niggling'). I should add that I don't find his vibrato at all intrusive or troublesome myself, but of course we all have different sensitivities and preferences for this sort of thing.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 01, 2010, 09:17:41 AM
Quote from: drogulus on May 01, 2010, 08:42:49 AM
     Thin tone I understand, but too much vibrato? I need to hear this recording.

I promised myself I was not going to enter the fray again until I'd heard Bean. But I just want to note that Eyeresist initially was commenting on my reaction to Hahn vs. Chung when I made a direct comparison. I wrote:

QuoteHahn's tone disturbs me: very thin with a constant and same vibrato that becomes irritating...at least it irritated this morning. Chung is "feminine" too but with considerably more grit and a wider range of tonal shades.

In my case it isn't that I object to vibrato...I don't, I love it!...but that I found far more pleasure in the variety that Chung delivers. Whether I'll react as negatively to Bean as I did to Hahn...whether in fact Bean is actually anything like Hahn...well, I'll find out next week.

Sarge, always keeping an open mind
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 01, 2010, 09:29:47 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 01, 2010, 09:01:06 AM
This comment came from the poster whose signature solicits recordings with no vibrato.  I'm still waiting for my copy to arrive, but I doubt vibrato will be an issue.


      Ah, I see. Now order is restored. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 01, 2010, 12:08:12 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 01, 2010, 09:17:41 AM
I found far more pleasure in the variety that Chung delivers.
I tried listening again to Chung/Solti this morning, Sarge, but stopped after the first movement because I wasn't enjoying Solti's approach at all. This could simply be due to me not being in the right mood, and I realise there's scope for all kinds of interpretations; but I couldn't hear the all-important nobilmente in Solti's interpretation: lots of drama and sweeping waves of emotionalism, but invariably seeming somehow unElgarian. I realise of course that I could just be too set in my ways... But I'm going to try again on another day; there was no point in persisting when I was so clearly not tuning in properly.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 01, 2010, 12:27:25 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 01, 2010, 12:08:12 PM
I tried listening again to Chung/Solti this morning, Sarge, but stopped after the first movement because I wasn't enjoying Solti's approach at all. This could simply be due to me not being in the right mood, and I realise there's scope for all kinds of interpretations; but I couldn't hear the all-important nobilmente in Solti's interpretation: lots of drama and sweeping waves of emotionalism, but invariably seeming somehow unElgarian. I realise of course that I could just be too set in my ways... But I'm going to try again on another day; there was no point in persisting when I was so clearly not tuning in properly.

Listened to the first five minutes or so this morning in anticipation of hearing the entire Chung/Solti recording this evening.  My reaction was different, I did not find it suffered from the lack of nuance his much earlier recording of the symphonies did.  I also had a positive impression from Chung's playing.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on May 01, 2010, 01:25:48 PM
I heard Hahn's Elgar this morning.  No lack of emotion as I experience it:  pathos--all the more honest for its comparative restraint--but not bathos.  I don't hear uniform thin tone, either, nor lack of commitment.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 02, 2010, 08:45:54 AM
Listened to the Chung/Solti in it's entirety, and had a positive impression.  I was pleasantly surprised that the overly aggressive performance that Solti gave the symphonies in his old recordings with the same ensemble was not repeated in the Violin concerto.  Solti did let the orchestra get a bit carried away in the big orchestral tutti which comes about 2/3 of the way through the first movement, but not enough to upset the equilibrium of the piece.  Chung is very good throughout.  However, I consistently don't find myself in the transports of ecstasy that I am supposed to during the long cadenza of the finale.  I am evidently missing something, but I find little in it to interest or engage me.

The one thing that I am noticing in my exploration of Elgar is a certain "sameness" in his works.  In Beethoven, for instance, each symphony is it's own sound world.  In Elgar the range is not so wide.  The major orchestral works are impressing me as painted from the same palette (although it is a rich palette).   Perhaps a similar criticism can be made of other composer of stature, such as Bruckner.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 02, 2010, 08:55:32 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 02, 2010, 08:45:54 AM
I consistently don't find myself in the transports of ecstasy that I am supposed to during the long cadenza of the finale.
If you did, I'd suspect that you'd put the wrong CD in the player. Ecstasy is a long way off: think in terms of loss, bewilderment, despair, hope (and the fear that the hope is vain) - these are more the sort of things to expect as it shifts through its various moods. It took me years - seriously - to come to something like terms with that cadenza.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 02, 2010, 09:15:03 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 02, 2010, 08:55:32 AM
If you did, I'd suspect that you'd put the wrong CD in the player. Ecstasy is a long way off: think in terms of loss, bewilderment, despair, hope (and the fear that the hope is vain) - these are more the sort of things to expect as it shifts through its various moods. It took me years - seriously - to come to something like terms with that cadenza.

Ok, I've got the bewilderment, that's a start.   ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 02, 2010, 09:32:15 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 02, 2010, 08:45:54 AM


The one thing that I am noticing in my exploration of Elgar is a certain "sameness" in his works.  In Beethoven, for instance, each symphony is it's own sound world.  In Elgar the range is not so wide.  The major orchestral works are impressing me as painted from the same palette (although it is a rich palette).   Perhaps a similar criticism can be made of other composer of stature, such as Bruckner.


      I agree about Elgar, and almost agree about Bruckner, though the masses and motets give one a wider perspective. Elgar's language is extraordinarily rich. I don't know whether this consistency counts as a weakness. I can see how it might, though.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 02, 2010, 11:11:16 AM
     I was prowling around in my Elgar collection and came across this recording which I have to recommend, though I'm sure it has been recommended before, possibly by me.

     (http://pixhost.ws/avaxhome/64/88/00108864.jpeg)

     This is my favorite recording of the Enigma as well as the Introduction and Allegro. The recordings were made in the Free Trade Hall in 1956, and the Enigma was recorded by the team of Robert Fine and Wilma Cozart. The CD was mastered by Michael J. Dutton. I've heard that the Andre Navarra performance of the Cello Concerto is quite good. At the moment it's unavailable to me since it didn't make it onto my PC. I'll have to look for the disc. Anyway many of these Phoenixa CDs are rapidly becoming rarities if they aren't already. This is one for the ages.

     
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 02, 2010, 11:33:00 AM
Quote from: drogulus on May 02, 2010, 09:32:15 AM
I don't know whether this consistency counts as a weakness.
I suppose we must see whether it turns into a strangeness. (See how nimbly we leap from thread to thread!)

Seriously though, his ability to say so much within the limits of that 'consistency' (I'm not sure it's the right word, but it'll do for now) is part of the reason for my lifelong love of his music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 02, 2010, 12:19:05 PM
Quote from: drogulus on May 02, 2010, 11:11:16 AM
     I was prowling around in my Elgar collection and came across this recording which I have to recommend, though I'm sure it has been recommended before, possibly by me.

     (http://pixhost.ws/avaxhome/64/88/00108864.jpeg)

     This is my favorite recording of the Enigma as well as the Introduction and Allegro. The recordings were made in the Free Trade Hall in 1956, and the Enigma was recorded by the team of Robert Fine and Wilma Cozart. The CD was mastered by Michael J. Dutton. I've heard that the Andre Navarra performance of the Cello Concerto is quite good. At the moment it's unavailable to me since it didn't make it onto my PC. I'll have to look for the disc. Anyway many of these Phoenixa CDs are rapidly becoming rarities if they aren't already. This is one for the ages.

   

That rung a bell.  I forgot I have vinyl of Barbiroll/Halle on Mercury Living Presence (Dvorak) and I wonder what other undiscovered gems there are in the un-reissued Mercury catalog.   Almost all of the mono Mercuries were never issued on CD. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 03, 2010, 03:59:00 AM
I knew I still wasn't in the mood for Solti's Elgar today, but decided to blow the dust off this, which I haven't played for a long time:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4195K4WVCXL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Perhaps the most significant thing I can say is that very quickly I found myself no longer asking 'how is Takezawa tackling this?', but simply accepting what was on offer and losing myself in the music. She's recorded very upfront, but that's fine; and Colin Davis produces quite a satisfying warm, spacious orchestral bloom which swells and fades in the right way in the right places, pretty well. There are times when he produces a sound very reminiscent of aeolian harps - which is all to the good in this concerto. (Elgar had several aeolian harps which he liked to place in an open window - I think he even made one himself.) Colin Davis gets this 'aeolian' aspect particularly well at the famous moment when the cadenza begins, producing a deliciously spooky prickling of the hairs on the neck.

Takezawa plays with great confidence but also with great sensitivity; she captures some of the most heartbreaking moments of the cadenza very well - enough to evoke tears for this listener, at any rate. All in all, this recording doesn't deserve the relatively long neglect that I've given it. It won't displace Bean/Groves for me, but certainly it's a fine interpretation. Sadly it seems to be out of print now.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 03, 2010, 08:41:00 AM
I find myself with this recording of the cello concerto:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/315SAH8VYCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Any comments?  I also have DuPre, but am reluctant to listen to that as my first exposure to the concerto, prefer to start with something more neutral.  I also found a copy of the Navarra used for dirt cheap.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on May 03, 2010, 09:26:54 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 03, 2010, 08:41:00 AM
I find myself with this recording of the cello concerto:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/315SAH8VYCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Any comments?  I also have DuPre, but am reluctant to listen to that as my first exposure to the concerto, prefer to start with something more neutral.  I also found a copy of the Navarra used for dirt cheap.
You've never heard Elgar's cello concerto?  Wow, you're in for a treat...arguably his finest work and one of the glories of the literature.  My first exposure was Tortelier/Boult and I still prefer it, but Barbirolli's terrific and with him at the helm du Pré is not so indulgent as in her later recording with hubby Dan.  Haven't heard the Gastinel, but suggest you just pick one and get on with it, time's a wastin'!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 03, 2010, 10:19:37 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 03, 2010, 08:41:00 AM
I find myself with this recording of the cello concerto:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/315SAH8VYCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Any comments?
I don't know that version, so can't comment. There are at least two essential recordings. One you know about already - duPre/Barbirolli. The other is Beatrice Harrison, with Elgar conducting. Both different, and both necessary. The JDP is so famous that I don't need to say anything about it, but Beatrice is usually less talked about. She was Elgar's cellist of choice: if she was available, she was the cellist he wanted, for the concerto. She remembered one occasion when:
'before I went on the platform, Sir Edward turned to me and said, "Give it 'em Beatrice, give it 'em. Don't mind about the notes or anything. Give 'em the spirit.'
And I hope and think I did.'

(Her book, The Cello and the Nightingales, is a delight from beginning to end.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 03, 2010, 10:45:54 AM
Harrison sounds attractive, but recordings that are that old generally turn me off.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on May 03, 2010, 04:52:59 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 03, 2010, 08:41:00 AM
I find myself with this recording of the cello concerto:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/315SAH8VYCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Any comments?  I also have DuPre, but am reluctant to listen to that as my first exposure to the concerto, prefer to start with something more neutral.  I also found a copy of the Navarra used for dirt cheap.

No experience of that recording, but in my experience the soloists on Naive are fairly capable, even if I've never heard of them before (many of them seem tobe in the middle of establishing themselves with European audiences).
My first version was Maisky conducted by Sinopoli;  I've recently expanded with the Dupre/Barbirolli and Mork/Rattle.  I do find the Dupre the best of the three, with Maisky and Mork about equal. It's not that Maisky or Mork do a bad job with the work; it's just that I find Dupre that much better.   The Maisky is coupled with the Enigma Variations and the Serenade for Strings in the incarnation I have; the Mork is coupled with Britten's Cello Symphony.  (I find the Mork recording of the Britten superior to the other recording of the work I have (the Rostropovich/Britten), in large part due to the sound quality.  Make of that what you will.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 04, 2010, 11:03:05 AM
The Cello Concerto is "thin" Elgar. I like Janos Starker/Slatkin because I find that performance gives sonic meat around bones. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 04, 2010, 12:25:43 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 04, 2010, 11:03:05 AM
The Cello Concerto is "thin" Elgar.
Could you explain further what you mean by that, please? (I can't relate the word 'thin' to anything in my own experience of the cello concerto.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 04, 2010, 12:53:38 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 02, 2010, 12:19:05 PM
That rung a bell.  I forgot I have vinyl of Barbiroll/Halle on Mercury Living Presence (Dvorak) and I wonder what other undiscovered gems there are in the un-reissued Mercury catalog.   Almost all of the mono Mercuries were never issued on CD. 

     Amazon has several Phoenixa discs from the Barbirolli/Hallé O. series including Dvorak Sym. 8 & 7,9 (all stereo) and the Berlioz SF. The Berlioz is one of the best. These are all CD-Rs so the price is not outrageous.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 04, 2010, 01:15:57 PM
Quote from: drogulus on May 04, 2010, 12:53:38 PM
     Amazon has several Phoenixa discs from the Barbirolli/Hallé O. series including Dvorak Sym. 8 & 7,9 (all stereo) and the Berlioz SF. The Berlioz is one of the best. These are all CD-Rs so the price is not outrageous.

What exactly is the "phoenixa" series, I have never heard of it until now.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 04, 2010, 01:35:12 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 04, 2010, 01:15:57 PM
What exactly is the "phoenixa" series, I have never heard of it until now.


      These were EMI CDs released in the late '80s, recordings made from the mid to late '50s originally on the Pye label. Some may have been released as LPs on Mercury or other labels, and the Mercury team of Fine/Cozart was involved in a few of them.

   
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512fqdLff9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2Ba2oCtMGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DcMimmwPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517CdyhaBdL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 05, 2010, 08:35:59 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 04, 2010, 12:25:43 PM
Could you explain further what you mean by that, please? (I can't relate the word 'thin' to anything in my own experience of the cello concerto.)
Compared to Elgar's other orchestral works the Cello Concerto sounds thin. It's composed for smaller orchestra (lack of players just after the war). I find the Violin Concerto more complex structurally than the Cello Concerto. Superb concerto nevertheless.  ;)

That's all I can explain as I am not musically educated. Sorry. Perhaps you could explain this as you are SO DAMN good talking about Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on May 05, 2010, 09:04:07 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 05, 2010, 08:35:59 AM
That's all I can explain as I am not musically educated. Sorry. Perhaps you could explain this as you are SO DAMN good talking about Elgar.

But maybe Alan doesn't find the Cello Concerto any 'thinner' than do I. How do we explain your opinion, Poju?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidW on May 05, 2010, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 05, 2010, 08:35:59 AM
That's all I can explain as I am not musically educated. Sorry. Perhaps you could explain this as you are SO DAMN good talking about Elgar.

Whoa there!  He wasn't disrespecting you or attacking you just disagreeing with you, maybe.  Thin can mean alot of things, asking for clarification isn't a bad thing. :-X
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on May 05, 2010, 10:09:04 AM
All this talk about Elgar's finest work, the late concerto for violincello, has me hankerin' for a listen to this emotionally rich and orchestrally well balanced composition, as recorded by Paul Tortelier and the London Philharmonic Orchestra with Sir Adrian Boult. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 05, 2010, 10:38:01 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 05, 2010, 10:09:04 AM
All this talk about Elgar's finest work, the late concerto for violincello, has me hankerin' for a listen to this emotionally rich and orchestrally well balanced composition, as recorded by Paul Tortelier and the London Philharmonic Orchestra with Sir Adrian Boult.

I can only interpret this post as gratuitous cruelty, since the recording is out of print and well-nigh impossible to obtain.   >:D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 05, 2010, 12:10:38 PM
Quote from: DavidW on May 05, 2010, 09:28:56 AM
Thin can mean alot of things, asking for clarification isn't a bad thing. :-X
Yes, thanks David. I was genuinely asking for clarification, and certainly not wanting to ruffle any feathers.

@71dB
Different words for different folks, perhaps. I wouldn't myself use the word 'thin' to describe it, although I can't help associating the cello concerto with  the chamber works because of course all were composed together at the same place at roughly the same time (the Brinkwells cottage). So if I were to say that I feel that the cello concerto often seems to have an intimate, 'chamber' feeling to it, I suppose there might be a psychological aspect to that.

I understand your comments about the VC, by the way. There's no virtue in trying to decide 'which is best', I think, but certainly the VC has fascinated and tantalised me over the years more than any other piece of music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on May 05, 2010, 12:38:35 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 05, 2010, 10:38:01 AM
I can only interpret this post as gratuitous cruelty, since the recording is out of print and well-nigh impossible to obtain.   >:D
Beats me why EMI doesn't reissue this as a GROC, unless they think they have it covered with the ubiquitous duPre/Barbirolli recording--which has many virtues, though it seems a bit melodramatic to me, and the LSO's winds on that recording can't hold a candle to the LPO's.

You can hear a streaming mp3 of the recording here: http://www.rhapsody.com/london-philharmonic-orchestra/elgar-falstaff-cello-concerto-etc
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 05, 2010, 12:55:46 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 05, 2010, 12:38:35 PM
the ubiquitous duPre/Barbirolli recording--which has many virtues, though it seems a bit melodramatic to me
Yes, I go along with that; I'd add, though, that she's pushing so hard at the limits of where that concerto could go, that it's almost inevitable that she'd go over the top at times. That's why I have exciting one-night stands with Jacqueline, but it's Beatrice I'm in love with.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 05, 2010, 01:03:11 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 05, 2010, 12:38:35 PM
Beats me why EMI doesn't reissue this as a GROC, unless they think they have it covered with the ubiquitous duPre/Barbirolli recording--which has many virtues, though it seems a bit melodramatic to me, and the LSO's winds on that recording can't hold a candle to the LPO's.

Well, it is available in this set, which is cheaper than getting a used copy of the individual CD.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512MaZw4ZXL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


20CDs for $48 ain't a bad deal.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 05, 2010, 09:04:08 PM
This one arrived today.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(After I ordered it, the Amazon page changed from "in stock" to 'this item has been discontinued by the manufacturer," so I officially have the last copy distributed in North America.)   :(

Don't have time to listen to it properly today, but couldn't resist listening to the opening, the orchestral exposition plus the entry of the violin.  Groves' philosophy is definitely that the orchestra should be like a proper stew, everything under thick sauce with nothing distinct evident. However, the relatively subdued orchestral sound allows Bean's entrance to be more dramatic, and it is certainly a velvety tone that he produces.

For comparison, listened to the opening of Hahn/Davis again.  Colin Davis definitely makes the orchestral exposition more spicey, with reeds and brass more penetrating in their interjections, and Hahn's entrance is more reserved and reticent, but it works in a different way (with Davis laying into the voicing of the low brass and wind chord that accompanies the end of Hahn's opening phrase). 

In any case, I sense Bean's performance will be interesting.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on May 06, 2010, 04:01:40 AM
Znajder landed by me yesterday, will give it a listen a bit later.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 06, 2010, 04:20:38 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 05, 2010, 09:04:08 PM
This one arrived today.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(After I ordered it, the Amazon page changed from "in stock" to 'this item has been discontinued by the manufacturer," so I officially have the last copy distributed in North America.)   :(



     Uh oh.... (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/sad.gif)

     I opened my confirmation email and clicked on the tracking #. The tracking info said:

     "Not Yet Dispatched           

     We'll notify you via e-mail when we have an estimated delivery date. You can cancel at any time."


      It doesn't look good.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on May 06, 2010, 04:32:57 AM
Spike in Bean demand . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 06, 2010, 05:15:13 AM
My copy of the Hugh Bean twofer arrived today from the UK. As soon as I've heard it, I'll rejoin the discussion.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 06, 2010, 06:09:27 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511mWJkXnLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

My copy of the Elder/Halle/Zehetmair recording arrived today. I decided to try this partly because of the favourable reviews, but also because of the unusual couplings (bits from Kingdom and Gerontius, with Alice Coote doing the Angel's Farewell. Listening to the whole CD, with the VC sandwiched in this way was quite interesting!

But as for the VC itself .... I found myself at the end asking again the question I asked years ago: do I actually need any more versions of the VC, and does this add anything to them? And I think the answers are no, and no. This is not to say there's anything significantly wrong with it; there isn't. Elder is a good Elgarian, and anyone wanting a copy of the VC would do OK with this - it touches most of the bases, but isn't in any danger of displacing Bean and Kang from the pedestal I've put them on. The recording quality seemed adequate but not outstanding: both soloist and orchestra seemed a bit 'distant' and the sound a little constricted perhaps - but nothing that other people's personal preferences might not gladly welcome. For me, though, this was pretty much an unnecessary purchase, I'm sad to say.

Rummaging around afterwards, I dug up Menuhin's 1965 recording (with Boult and the New Philharmonia), which I haven't heard for ages, and played a few minutes of it: it sounded very good indeed (Menuhin understandably has a significantly different, steadier approach in 1965 than he did when recording it as a young lad with Elgar), and I hope to give it a more serious listen sometime soon and refresh my memory of it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on May 06, 2010, 06:38:43 AM
Well, and Kang just landed, so I'll load that disc right up.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on May 06, 2010, 06:49:23 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 06, 2010, 06:38:43 AM
Well, and Kang just landed, so I'll load that disc right up.
I just listened to it via Naxos streaming and liked it quite a bit...better, in fact, than any other I've heard--but bear in mind that thanks to Alan's impassioned but civil and thoughtful advocacy, I've listened to this concerto more in the past few days than in the previous few years, and it's likely that increased familiarity is opening my heart to it more than before.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Franco on May 06, 2010, 06:51:09 AM
QuoteI dug up Menuhin's 1965 recording (with Boult and the New Philharmonia), which I haven't heard for ages, and played a few minutes of it: it sounded very good indeed

That's the one I have, and have been happy with it, but because of this thread I ordered the Bean from Presto Classical (reasonably priced at $11.49), it should arrive soon (I just got the dispatch notification).  I may have gotten their last copy since they no longer list it on their site.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on May 06, 2010, 07:01:51 AM
My amazon third-party order of the Bean has got canceled.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 06, 2010, 07:26:16 AM
Well, since the recording is impossible to obtain, perhaps unobtrusive electronic distribution is called for.  Extracting files from a CD is easy, but I'm not familiar enough with such practices to know where such rather large files can be tucked away.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: sTisTi on May 06, 2010, 07:48:06 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 06, 2010, 07:26:16 AM
Well, since the recording is impossible to obtain, perhaps unobtrusive electronic distribution is called for.  Extracting files from a CD is easy, but I'm not familiar enough with such practices to know where such rather large files can be tucked away.
Mediafire.com is a possibility, though if you want to share the content of a CD in a lossless compression format (e.g. FLAC, ALAC), you'd better have a fast internet connection for the upload as a full CD typically takes up ~250-350 MB ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on May 06, 2010, 11:10:42 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 05, 2010, 08:35:59 AM
Compared to Elgar's other orchestral works the Cello Concerto sounds thin. It's composed for smaller orchestra (lack of players just after the war). I find the Violin Concerto more complex structurally than the Cello Concerto. Superb concerto nevertheless.  ;)


Just FWIW it's not really composed for a smaller orchestra - apart from the lack of a double bassoon in the later work the orchestras called for are identical. The orchestras of Europe may have been depleted after the war, true, but that fact doesn't find itself reflected in the instrumentarium of the cello concerto.

One could perhaps argue that the intimacy of the cello concerto might mean it doesn't require so many string players - but a) the scores themselves don't tell us this and b) I don't really think it's true anyway - in its relatively few fully-scored passages the cello concerto makes just as big a noise as the violin concerto.

No, the thinness of the cello concerto, if it is to be called that, is above all just superb scoring, Elgar showing that he knew how to hold things back to allow the cello through to the top of the texture. This affects the tone of the work, of course, intensifies that lonely, pensive soundworld which this concerto makes so much its own.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 06, 2010, 12:25:20 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 06, 2010, 04:01:40 AM
Znajder landed by me yesterday, will give it a listen a bit later.
I hovered for some time trying to choose between Znaider and Zehetmair before plumping for the latter, so I hope you're going to tell me that I don't need to buy that one, Karl....

I betcha a million pounds you'll enjoy the Kang.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 06, 2010, 12:31:59 PM
Quoted with corrections:

Quote from: DavidRoss on May 06, 2010, 06:49:23 AM
I just listened to it via Naxos streaming and liked it quite a bit...better, in fact, than any other I've heard--but bear in mind that thanks to Alan's impassioned but civil and thoughtful advocacy persistent brainwashing, I've listened to this concerto more in the past few days than in the previous few years, and it's likely that increased familiarity my need to do anything to make him stop is opening my heart to it more than before.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Drasko on May 06, 2010, 12:55:46 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 06, 2010, 07:26:16 AM
Well, since the recording is impossible to obtain, perhaps unobtrusive electronic distribution is called for.  Extracting files from a CD is easy, but I'm not familiar enough with such practices to know where such rather large files can be tucked away.

Why would anyone bother when there is about 99% chance that some blogger-pirate has already been there, done that. Took me about two minutes to find this one for instance:
http://organ-music-for-all.blogspot.com/2009/03/edward-elgar-collectors-edition-30cd_28.html
Disc 6 looks like what you've been looking for.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 06, 2010, 01:40:45 PM
Quote from: sTisTi on May 06, 2010, 07:48:06 AM
Mediafire.com is a possibility, though if you want to share the content of a CD in a lossless compression format (e.g. FLAC, ALAC), you'd better have a fast internet connection for the upload as a full CD typically takes up ~250-350 MB ;)


      If "someone" wanted to post a zip file without breaking it up Google Docs would be the place. The zip could contain tagged lossless files of the CD in question. Google allows up to 1 GB total which can be used for a single file.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 06, 2010, 02:00:25 PM
Quote from: drogulus on May 06, 2010, 01:40:45 PM
      If "someone" wanted to post a zip file without breaking it up Google Docs would be the place. The zip could contain tagged lossless files of the CD in question. Google allows up to 1 GB total which can be used for a single file.

Well, it seems there is no need, since it is already available via the link cited above.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 06, 2010, 02:41:20 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 06, 2010, 02:00:25 PM
Well, it seems there is no need, since it is already available via the link cited above.


      I was just scheming out loud. What's the point of life if you can't help people? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/evil.gif)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on May 06, 2010, 03:27:15 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 06, 2010, 12:31:59 PMQuoted with corrections:
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 06, 2010, 06:49:23 AM
I just listened to it via Naxos streaming and liked it quite a bit...better, in fact, than any other I've heard--but bear in mind that thanks to Alan's impassioned but civil and thoughtful advocacy persistent brainwashing, I've listened to this concerto more in the past few days than in the previous few years, and it's likely that increased familiarity my need to do anything to make him stop is opening my heart to it more than before.
;D ;D ;D

Although your edits are amusing, Alan, I think the original more accurate.   8)  BTW, I enjoyed the Kang/Leaper recording so much that I just ordered the CD.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on May 06, 2010, 05:49:41 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 06, 2010, 06:09:27 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511mWJkXnLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

My copy of the Elder/Halle/Zehetmair recording arrived today. I decided to try this partly because of the favourable reviews, but also because of the unusual couplings (bits from Kingdom and Gerontius, with Alice Coote doing the Angel's Farewell. Listening to the whole CD, with the VC sandwiched in this way was quite interesting!


Would I be correct in assuming the Gerontius excerpt  is from the Elder/Halle recording of the complete Gerontius,  in which Coote sings the Angel?
(Recording dates for the Gerontius are given as 15-19 July 2008, if that is needed to clinch the deal).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 07, 2010, 01:40:20 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on May 06, 2010, 05:49:41 PM
Would I be correct in assuming the Gerontius excerpt  is from the Elder/Halle recording of the complete Gerontius,  in which Coote sings the Angel?
(Recording dates for the Gerontius are given as 15-19 July 2008, if that is needed to clinch the deal).

Those are the recording dates given on Elder's Gerontius CD. Whether they are the same takes, I don't know but I assume they are.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 07, 2010, 08:23:07 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on May 06, 2010, 05:49:41 PM
Would I be correct in assuming the Gerontius excerpt  is from the Elder/Halle recording of the complete Gerontius,  in which Coote sings the Angel?
(Recording dates for the Gerontius are given as 15-19 July 2008, if that is needed to clinch the deal).
Sarge is right - the dates are the same. I haven't compared them directly, but I assume they're the same recordings. The Kingdom prelude seems to be from a much earlier session, recorded 23 March 2005.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 07, 2010, 11:01:51 AM
Quote from: Luke on May 06, 2010, 11:10:42 AM
Just FWIW it's not really composed for a smaller orchestra - apart from the lack of a double bassoon in the later work the orchestras called for are identical. The orchestras of Europe may have been depleted after the war, true, but that fact doesn't find itself reflected in the instrumentarium of the cello concerto.

One could perhaps argue that the intimacy of the cello concerto might mean it doesn't require so many string players - but a) the scores themselves don't tell us this and b) I don't really think it's true anyway - in its relatively few fully-scored passages the cello concerto makes just as big a noise as the violin concerto.

No, the thinness of the cello concerto, if it is to be called that, is above all just superb scoring, Elgar showing that he knew how to hold things back to allow the cello through to the top of the texture. This affects the tone of the work, of course, intensifies that lonely, pensive soundworld which this concerto makes so much its own.

Ok, thanks for the correction. I must have misundertood something I read about this somewhere years ago. Maybe it is the recorded sound of the first version I heard (Kliegel/Naxos) that created my fixation of thin sound? Maybe other version  haven't corrected this in my mind? Don't know...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 07, 2010, 12:01:37 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 06, 2010, 03:27:15 PM
I enjoyed the Kang/Leaper recording so much that I just ordered the CD.
One more small step towards insolvency, Dave, but it's a great way to go and I'm proud to have helped you on your way!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: abidoful on May 12, 2010, 06:30:03 AM
I always have had  kind of a mixed feelings about Elgar- he seemed little lame though I was familiar with the  CELLO CONCERTO and I loved it when I heard it in played in the movie about Jacqueline DuPre. Then I heard some orchestral songs and they sounded beautiful. :)
Only now I'm really exploring him. I don't know he's symphonies yet, I only listened the VIOLIN CONCERTO yesterday and it seemed very powerful. :o  I hear something similar in him and the american MacDowell; emotional but kind of masculine, not hysterical like Tchaikowsky.

And yes, SALUT' D AMOUR is absolutely charming- as is the 1st POMPOUS MARCH :-*

Maybe such comments like Sibelius's ("Elgar managed to write wonderful music page after page after which he come to introduce something commonplace and trivial") have influenced to my lack of interest..  ::)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 12, 2010, 10:48:43 AM
Quote from: abidoful on May 12, 2010, 06:30:03 AMMaybe such comments like Sibelius's ("Elgar managed to write wonderful music page after page after which he come to introduce something commonplace and trivial") have influenced to my lack of interest..  ::)

Make your own evaluation of Elgar.  ;) 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 12, 2010, 12:24:25 PM
Quote from: abidoful on May 12, 2010, 06:30:03 AMMaybe such comments like Sibelius's ("Elgar managed to write wonderful music page after page after which he come to introduce something commonplace and trivial") have influenced to my lack of interest..  ::)

If you restrict yourself to composers who were never ridiculed by other composers you will listen to nothing.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: abidoful on May 12, 2010, 12:51:01 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 12, 2010, 12:24:25 PM
If you restrict yourself to composers who were never ridiculed by other composers you will listen to nothing.
True---
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: abidoful on May 12, 2010, 12:53:49 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 12, 2010, 10:48:43 AM
Make your own evaluation of Elgar.  ;)

Thank's,  I really want to- I'm interested!! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 13, 2010, 12:58:26 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MD%2B5ijGQL._SS400_.jpg)


Elgar's Violin Sonata

Karl mentioned the violin sonata a while back, and we both thought it was high time to talk about it, so here goes. My approach, as ever with Elgar, is to start with the biography because so often the life informs the work to a considerable degree.

Anyone who compares Elgar's music pre-1914, and post-1914, is going to notice an enormous difference. The War knocked the stuffing out of him, and inflicted serious damage on his dreams of nobility, brotherhood, and the chivalric ideal. His music written specifically for the War culminates in 1917 with the completion of one of his greatest and most (incomprehensibly) neglected works: The Spirit of England - effectively Elgar's Requiem for those who died in the war.

Afterwards he sought refuge in a Sussex cottage, 'Brinkwells', in the heart of woodland, accessible only with difficulty, and offering quite a spartan existence. Something about the surrounding woodland inspired him to embark on his series of chamber works: the violin sonata, the piano quintet, the string quartet (and also of course the non-chamber cello concerto). Quite a lot of biographical material relates to the violin sonata. Alice Elgar recorded in her diary that Elgar was beginning to write a very different kind of music: 'wood magic', she called it. We know that quite apart from his love of the woodland, he was haunted by a particular group of rather sinister trees that are said to have influenced the music he was writing. So one thing we might expect from this music is a new kind of Elgarian pastoralism

But wait. In August 1918, Alice Stuart Wortley (the Windflower) came to visit the cottage. After she left he started work on the Sonata. The opening of the first movement is vigorous and (one might say) masculine in character - but then comes an entirely typical Elgarian moment at about 1 minute in, with the introduction of a lovely 'feminine' second theme. I don't want to get absurdly literalist, but to my ears that theme has 'Windflower' written all over it, as vividly as if he'd carved it into the barks of the trees in the wood.

He'd just begun work on the 2nd (slow) movement when he heard that the Windflower had had an accident and broken her leg, and I don't think it's too fanciful to suppose that the change in tone of the second movement that occurs at about 2m30s, where the 'wood magic' gives way to what is surely one of his loveliest, most heart-aching melodies, may be related to that, and to his feelings for the Windflower and all that she represented, remembered here in his mysterious woodland.

Then Billy Reed came to stay, bringing his violin. He recalls:
'the Violin Sonata was well advanced. All the first movement was written, half the second - he finished this ... while I was there - and the opening section of the Finale. We used to play up to the blank page and then he would say, 'And then what?' - and we would go out to explore the wood or fish in the River Arun.'

The importance of that lovely tune from the second movement is emphasised by the fact that the very same theme reappears in the last two minutes of the final movement, bringing a kind of solace (or is it just a diffferent kind of loss and heartbreak?) to the restless, fretful, and sometimes anguished searching of the previous 6 minutes.

So in the background to the sonata we have the Windflower; we have woodland, and Elgar's love of it; we have a group of haunted trees; and we have all these set against a sense of loss and profound sadness resulting from the horrors of the war. I hope it's obvious that I'm not saying the violin sonata was composed according to some sort of programme; not that; rather, that when I listen to it, and find myself feeling that familiar Elgarian sense of longing for something unreachable and feminine, or imagining light dappling through leaves and branches, or feeling strangely haunted by a sense of almost intolerable loss - then none of these things is very surprising.

If I could only have one recording of the violin sonata, then I'd ask for mercy and plead for two. I'd want Hugh Bean's, with David Parkhouse, but that's not a helpful recommendation because all the copies in the world have recently been bought up by GMG members wanting to get his recording of the violin concerto. But no matter. If I could really and truly only have one, then it would be Lydia Mordkovitch with Julian Milford (see picture above). It takes your heart and squeezes it dry, and then wrings it again. The good news is that unlike the Bean, this is still obtainable, here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Sospiri-Music-Violin-Piano/dp/B000005Z6Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273783814&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Sospiri-Music-Violin-Piano/dp/B000005Z6Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273783814&sr=1-1)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: abidoful on May 13, 2010, 09:52:07 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 13, 2010, 12:58:26 PM
Anyone who compares Elgar's music pre-1914, and post-1914, is going to notice an enormous difference. The War knocked the stuffing out of him, and inflicted serious damage on his dreams of nobility, brotherhood, and the chivalric ideal. His music written specifically for the War culminates in 1917 with the completion of one of his greatest and most (incomprehensibly) neglected works: The Spirit of England - effectively Elgar's Requiem for those who died in the war.

Afterwards he sought refuge in a Sussex cottage, 'Brinkwells', in the heart of woodland, accessible only with difficulty, and offering quite a spartan existence. Something about the surrounding woodland inspired him to embark on his series of chamber works: the violin sonata, the piano quintet, the string quartet (and also of course the non-chamber cello concerto). Quite a lot of biographical material relates to the violin sonata. Alice Elgar recorded in her diary that Elgar was beginning to write a very different kind of music: 'wood magic', she called it. We know that quite apart from his love of the woodland, he was haunted by a particular group of rather sinister trees that are said to have influenced the music he was writing. So one thing we might expect from this music is a new kind of Elgarian pastoralism

But wait. In August 1918, Alice Stuart Wortley (the Windflower) came to visit the cottage. After she left he started work on the Sonata. The opening of the first movement is vigorous and (one might say) masculine in character - but then comes an entirely typical Elgarian moment at about 1 minute in, with the introduction of a lovely 'feminine' second theme. I don't want to get absurdly literalist, but to my ears that theme has 'Windflower' written all over it, as vividly as if he'd carved it into the barks of the trees in the wood.

He'd just begun work on the 2nd (slow) movement when he heard that the Windflower had had an accident and broken her leg, and I don't think it's too fanciful to suppose that the change in tone of the second movement that occurs at about 2m30s, where the 'wood magic' gives way to what is surely one of his loveliest, most heart-aching melodies, may be related to that, and to his feelings for the Windflower and all that she represented, remembered here in his mysterious woodland.

Then Billy Reed came to stay, bringing his violin. He recalls:
'the Violin Sonata was well advanced. All the first movement was written, half the second - he finished this ... while I was there - and the opening section of the Finale. We used to play up to the blank page and then he would say, 'And then what?' - and we would go out to explore the wood or fish in the River Arun.'

The importance of that lovely tune from the second movement is emphasised by the fact that the very same theme reappears in the last two minutes of the final movement, bringing a kind of solace (or is it just a diffferent kind of loss and heartbreak?) to the restless, fretful, and sometimes anguished searching of the previous 6 minutes.

So in the background to the sonata we have the Windflower; we have woodland, and Elgar's love of it; we have a group of haunted trees; and we have all these set against a sense of loss and profound sadness resulting from the horrors of the war. I hope it's obvious that I'm not saying the violin sonata was composed according to some sort of programme; not that; rather, that when I listen to it, and find myself feeling that familiar Elgarian sense of longing for something unreachable and feminine, or imagining light dappling through leaves and branches, or feeling strangely haunted by a sense of almost intolerable loss - then none of these things is very surprising.

So very enjoyable reading this- written with an insight :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 14, 2010, 01:04:00 AM
I didn't have time yesterday, but thought I'd say more about specific recordings of the violin sonata. I have five altogether, and my feeling is that one wouldn't actually be unhappy with any of them. I should add that much of what I say below takes for granted a lot of what I said above, in #791, and if you skipped that, then much of what I say below won't make sense.

First up is the Nash Ensemble (Marcia Crayford and Ian Brown):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61d3%2Bu7t8-L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The real test, for me, is how the transitions to (what I think of as) the 'Windflowery' bits are managed in each movement, and this does very well - meltingly well, in fact, with very sensitive responses to the mood shifts. A lovely recording, and well worth having.


Then there's this one, with Marat Bisengaliev and Benjamin Frith:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414NBM4C74L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

This seems to be recorded in a more reverberative acoustic, and Bisengaliev's violin has a more wiry tone. When it begins I find myself squirming a bit, because it isn't quite how I expect Elgar to sound; and he doesn't quite (to my ears) get the transition delicate enough when the feminine second theme appears. But in fact as the piece develops and the tone becomes more familiar, this interpretation starts to acquire its own authority - always just a touch more severe, with the soft, melting moments less indulged in. Even so, it's probably my least favourite version, and I feel as if he doesn't understand Elgar quite well enough - but of course that could just be me being a bit stick-in-the-mud. His wiry sound is very effective at conveying what I like to think of as a 'sinister trees' image in the restless and slightly spooky moments towards the end of the final movement, just before the reappearance of the gorgeous second movement theme.


Then there's Simone Lamsma with Yurie Miura:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nZbiYLLBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Lamsma is a young Dutch violinist who won an award which gave her the opportunity to make a recording, and (quite astonishingly) she chose to record a CD entirely made up of Elgar's works. Her approach to the violin sonata isn't totally convincing, on one level: for example, the appearance of the second theme in the first movement is too boldly stated in my view. She does better with the 'Windflowery' mood change in the second movement, but overall, there doesn't seem to be quite the delicacy that I expect, when delicacy is called for. Even so, I'm actually rather fond of this recording. There's a youthful freshness about it that to some degree makes up for the missing depth, and she so obviously loves the music she's playing even if expressing the full range of it is sometimes beyond her grasp. Not a first choice, then, but not to be dismissed either.


I must mention Hugh Bean/David Parkhouse, even though it's hard to get hold of:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

This was the version I grew up with, and for many years was all I had. I'm past knowing how it relates to the other versions I've mentioned because it's so familiar. Bean understands Elgar - full stop - and if I'd never heard Lydia Mordkovitch this would probably be my top recommendation, with the Nash Ensemble as an equally fine alternative. At the close of the final movement, the way he moves from the 'spooky trees' to the reappearance of the second movement theme, shifting from vague unease to heartbreak in the space of 30 seconds, is simply wonderful.


But when all is said, this is The One, for me:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MD%2B5ijGQL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

There isn't a false touch; the range from anxious unease to piercing insight, from masculine assertion to feminine compliance, from moments of hope, to moments of hope dashed - it's all here in this recording. Exquisite playing, with wonderfully sensitive piano. A desert island choice.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2010, 02:32:49 AM
Elgarian, thanks for the your insightful posts about the Violin Sonata. I'm listening to, and comparing my two versions today: Bean/Parkhouse and Kennedy/Pettinger.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2010/ElgarVSonKen.jpg)

Even before playing them I noticed a major difference between Kennedy and Bean (and Mordkovitch, too, if the timings are listed accurately at amazon.co.uk): Kennedy is much slower in the second movement, almost two minutes slower. Bean and Mordkovitch's timings for all three movements are nearly identical!

Kennedy         8:00  9:42  9:24
Bean               8:07  8:01  9:11
Mordkovitch    8:06  8:06  8:59

Based on several reviews I read yesterday, I decided to order Hope/Mulligan (Elgar coupled with Walton and Finzi, two works I don't own). Hope supposedly contrasts the first and second themes in the first movement in a very extreme way. Sounds interesting. Despite your persuasive argument in favor of Mordkovitch, I wonder if her performance isn't dissimilar enough to Bean, making it redundant in a modest collection of the Sonata?

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 14, 2010, 02:57:09 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2010, 02:32:49 AM
Despite your persuasive argument in favor of Mordkovitch, I wonder if her performance isn't dissimilar enough to Bean, making it redundant in a modest collection of the Sonata?
What an interesting thing to say. Now, I don't find this (though my collection is a modest one). I feel Mordkovitch reaches a level of nuance and fluidity that Bean doesn't quite manage (much though I love his performance). If Bean offers a 10 Kleenex tissue weep-coefficient in the sad bits, Mordkovitch takes me to 12 or 15. I've never directly compared them in detail, but I'll do so and try to come back with specific examples of the differences that seem important (if I can identify them accurately enough, that is).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on May 14, 2010, 03:11:32 AM
Many thanks, Alan.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2010, 03:23:22 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 14, 2010, 02:57:09 AM
What an interesting thing to say.

My statement deliberately ended in a question mark--hoping you could answer it. I based it on the nearly identical timings (although I realize that doesn't tell you very much about the individual performance) and the fact they are your favorites, making me think they may be more similar in intent and execution than not. If you have the time to elaborate on the differences, I'd appreciate it.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on May 14, 2010, 03:29:47 AM
Another thanks for your post on the violin sonata, Elgarian - I love the way that some small works which might otherwise pass me by without much incident can become so much richer when somebody who has listened closely and can successfully articulate their thoughts is able to write a little guide to the piece as you have done here.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: abidoful on May 14, 2010, 03:48:09 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 14, 2010, 01:04:00 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I become aware of the Elgar CONCERT ALLEGRO only few days ago and got really interested- I didn't find it on YouTube and for this work alone I would consider this disc. Apart from the chamber works and songs, I believe Elgar didn't write much for piano? Being a pianist myself, I wonder has it been published? It was something like opus 46???
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 14, 2010, 04:08:50 AM
 
     The Bean version of the Sonata is the only one I've heard, and from my listening the last couple of days (interspersed with 2 cycles of Nielsen symphonies) I would not feel deprived with just this one.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 14, 2010, 06:48:24 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2010, 03:23:22 AM
My statement deliberately ended in a question mark--hoping you could answer it. I based it on the nearly identical timings (although I realize that doesn't tell you very much about the individual performance) and the fact they are your favorites, making me think they may be more similar in intent and execution than not. If you have the time to elaborate on the differences, I'd appreciate it.
Worth pointing out that my two favourite recordings of the violin concerto are like chalk and cheese (Bean and Kang), so it doesn't follow that I'm necessarily going for 'more of the same' (though sometimes, I do!)

OK. Here goes. Bean v Mordkovitch. The first minute of the first movement says it all, in a way. Bean is marvellous, full of attack, almost aggressive. But Mordkovitch sounds completely different. Her tone is different, but I can't find words to fit - it's like comparing fine and coarse sandpaper, perhaps. She makes Bean sound as if he's lacking in finesse, more monodimensional in character. Her attack in the first minute is just as powerful as his, but it's like quicksilver, rising and falling in waves, with faster shifts of tone and pace. I get the impression she's actually playing faster than Bean (and checking the timings, I see that indeed she is, by a second or two when completing that first section. Bean is wonderful, but Mordkovitch makes him seem rather plodding by comparison.

This tendency carries on right through into the introduction of the second theme, where she seems to find nuances that Bean misses. For instance, you know how there's a long sustained high note starting at about 1m43s in Bean, and continuing for about 5 seconds? It's a lovely moment, poised somewhere between happiness and pain. Well, when Mordkovitch plays that, she seems to touch some sort of ethereal realm, where the note begins with exquisite delicacy and then fades with equal tenderness at the end. Her playing reminds me of those drawings by Rossetti of Elizabeth Siddal, where the pencil work rises from the page so delicately that you can't tell where the paper/pencil boundary is.

Again, towards the end of the last movement, Bean gives us what I call the spooky trees feeling starting at about 6m15s, then slides into the reappearance of the lovely 'Windflowerish' melody at 6m55s, and it's so very beautiful and moving; but when Mordkovitch plays that I almost get the impression that she's going to come to a halt at the end of the spooky trees, and maybe this time there'll be no reprieve ... then slowly, faintly, the lovely tune appears, like something forgotten and only now remembered. Again, Bean seems monodimensional by comparison. There's a kind of inevitability about where he's going, whereas Mordkovitch is full of uncertainty. Bean gives us plain speaking - beautiful, deeply felt plain speaking, while Mordkovitch is continually hesitant, trembling on the edge, lower lip quivering.

I don't have the necessary command of technicalities to do better than this I'm afraid, and as I read it through again it all seems like an inadequate description of the differences I'm hearing, but it's the best I can do. The differences seem bigger and more obvious when I'm listening, than they do when I'm reading what I've written!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2010, 07:19:06 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 14, 2010, 06:48:24 AM
Worth pointing out that my two favourite recordings of the violin concerto are like chalk and cheese (Bean and Kang), so it doesn't follow that I'm necessarily going for 'more of the same' (though sometimes, I do!)

Yes, I thought of that shortly after I posted my message but decided to let it stand just to prod you into replying  ;)

Quote
I don't have the necessary command of technicalities to do better than this I'm afraid, and as I read it through again it all seems like an inadequate description of the differences I'm hearing, but it's the best I can do.

You gave me exactly what I was after, thanks. I can use your description of Bean to compare with Kennedy, keeping in mind your description of how Mordkovitch handles the same passage. Hope/Mulligan is on the way (just received an email confirmation).

I should just accept your verdict about Mordkovitch since you were right about Bean's performance of the concerto. I've listened to it twice (and the candenza several more times) and it is special. It's worth the price just for the first entrance of the violin. I'm not ready to say I prefer it overall to Chung or Kennedy but I'm leaning that way. I'll have more to say after I've listened to Kang.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 08:45:09 AM
Oh dear, I'm trying to resist the temptation to begin "collecting" recordings of this piece without even hearing it once!   ???
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 14, 2010, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2010, 07:19:06 AM
I can use your description of Bean to compare with Kennedy, keeping in mind your description of how Mordkovitch handles the same passage. Hope/Mulligan is on the way (just received an email confirmation).
The nice thing here is that between us we have Bean as a common and admired reference against which to compare the others. I'll be glad to hear what you think about the Hope/Mulligan (I haven't heard Kennedy).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 14, 2010, 08:54:42 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 08:45:09 AM
Oh dear, I'm trying to resist the temptation to begin "collecting" recordings of this piece without even hearing it once!   ???
You do have Bean though, don't you? (On the 2CD set with the violin concerto.) So at least you're starting with a good 'un.

And we haven't started on the string quartet and the piano quintet yet ....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2010, 08:59:30 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 08:45:09 AM
Oh dear, I'm trying to resist the temptation to begin "collecting" recordings of this piece without even hearing it once!   ???

RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!!!

;D :D ;D


Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 14, 2010, 09:11:30 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 14, 2010, 01:04:00 AMBut when all is said, this is The One, for me:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MD%2B5ijGQL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

There isn't a false touch; the range from anxious unease to piercing insight, from masculine assertion to feminine compliance, from moments of hope, to moments of hope dashed - it's all here in this recording. Exquisite playing, with wonderfully sensitive piano. A desert island choice.

That's my favorite too but I only have 2 recording of the work, Marat Bisengaliev/Benjamin Frith being the other one.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: secondwind on May 14, 2010, 09:15:36 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 08:45:09 AM
Oh dear, I'm trying to resist the temptation to begin "collecting" recordings of this piece without even hearing it once!   ???
:P :P :P :P :P Why?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 14, 2010, 09:29:04 AM
Quote from: abidoful on May 14, 2010, 03:48:09 AM
I become aware of the Elgar CONCERT ALLEGRO only few days ago and got really interested- I didn't find it on YouTube and for this work alone I would consider this disc. Apart from the chamber works and songs, I believe Elgar didn't write much for piano? Being a pianist myself, I wonder has it been published? It was something like opus 46???

Concert Allegro, Op. 46 is Elgar's best piano works but his other works for piano are nice too. I have these recordings of piano Elgar:

Maria Garzón (ASV) - Enigma Variations (original piano version), Concert Allegro etc.
David Owen Norris (Elgar Editions) - Vol 1 Solo Piano Music
Peter Pettinger (Chandos) -  Piano Music including Concert Allegro
Ashley Wass (Naxos) - Piano Music including Enigma Variations (original piano version)

The last two together give broad coveridge of Elgar's piano works.  ;)

If forced to choose only one, Pettinger would be my choice.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on May 14, 2010, 09:42:24 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 08:45:09 AM
Oh dear, I'm trying to resist the temptation to begin "collecting" recordings of this piece without even hearing it once!   ???

Worth it in the case of the Elgar Vn Sonata.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on May 14, 2010, 09:43:31 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 14, 2010, 08:54:42 AM
You do have Bean though, don't you? (On the 2CD set with the violin concerto.) So at least you're starting with a good 'un.

I think we should have a moratorium on even mention of Bean as long as the recording is unavailable ; )
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 11:10:43 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 14, 2010, 08:54:42 AM
You do have Bean though, don't you? (On the 2CD set with the violin concerto.) So at least you're starting with a good 'un.

And we haven't started on the string quartet and the piano quintet yet ....

I have the 2CD set featuring bean on the violin concerto and sonata, which also contains recordings of other chamber pieces.  I have independent recordings of the string quartet and piano quintet, but I seem to have only the Bean for the sonata.  For a significant piece I like to have more than one option. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 11:11:59 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 14, 2010, 09:43:31 AM
I think we should have a moratorium on even mention of Bean as long as the recording is unavailable ; )

Maybe a transcription for clarinet and piano is in order?   8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 14, 2010, 11:38:07 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 14, 2010, 09:43:31 AM
I think we should have a moratorium on even mention of Bean as long as the recording is unavailable ; )
You mean ... he's a has-bean?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2010, 01:40:06 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 11:10:43 AM
For a significant piece I like to have more than one option.

Me too. And Elgar's sonata has become a significant piece.  Whether you'll respond to it as I have...well, let us know  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2010, 01:40:39 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 14, 2010, 11:38:07 AM
You mean ... he's a has-bean?

;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 14, 2010, 02:20:21 PM
     
     (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

     According to the EMI Classics site this is still available, and Amazon UK says only Temporarily OOS. Also you can go to the Elgar Foundation site and order it for £9.99.

     I decided not to wait, though I'm still buying the CD if it really is available.

     
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2010, 02:40:36 PM
Quote from: drogulus on May 14, 2010, 02:20:21 PM
     
     (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

     According to the EMI Classics site this is still available, and Amazon UK says only Temporarily OOS. Also you can go to the Elgar Foundation site and order it for £9.99.

     I decided not to wait, though I'm still buying the CD if it really is available.

   

The performance of the Concerto by Bean really is incredible (and I should mention Groves' contribution, which is significant, and as passionate as Solti's)...a performance all Elgarians should hear. At this point I still prefer Kennedy in the Sonata but I haven't done a serious bar by bar comparison yet.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 03:01:05 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 14, 2010, 06:48:24 AM
Worth pointing out that my two favourite recordings of the violin concerto are like chalk and cheese (Bean and Kang), so it doesn't follow that I'm necessarily going for 'more of the same' (though sometimes, I do!)

OK. Here goes. Bean v Mordkovitch. The first minute of the first movement says it all, in a way. Bean is marvellous, full of attack, almost aggressive. But Mordkovitch sounds completely different. Her tone is different, but I can't find words to fit - it's like comparing fine and coarse sandpaper, perhaps. She makes Bean sound as if he's lacking in finesse, more monodimensional in character. Her attack in the first minute is just as powerful as his, but it's like quicksilver, rising and falling in waves, with faster shifts of tone and pace. I get the impression she's actually playing faster than Bean (and checking the timings, I see that indeed she is, by a second or two when completing that first section. Bean is wonderful, but Mordkovitch makes him seem rather plodding by comparison.

This tendency carries on right through into the introduction of the second theme, where she seems to find nuances that Bean misses. For instance, you know how there's a long sustained high note starting at about 1m43s in Bean, and continuing for about 5 seconds? It's a lovely moment, poised somewhere between happiness and pain. Well, when Mordkovitch plays that, she seems to touch some sort of ethereal realm, where the note begins with exquisite delicacy and then fades with equal tenderness at the end. Her playing reminds me of those drawings by Rossetti of Elizabeth Siddal, where the pencil work rises from the page so delicately that you can't tell where the paper/pencil boundary is.

Again, towards the end of the last movement, Bean gives us what I call the spooky trees feeling starting at about 6m15s, then slides into the reappearance of the lovely 'Windflowerish' melody at 6m55s, and it's so very beautiful and moving; but when Mordkovitch plays that I almost get the impression that she's going to come to a halt at the end of the spooky trees, and maybe this time there'll be no reprieve ... then slowly, faintly, the lovely tune appears, like something forgotten and only now remembered. Again, Bean seems monodimensional by comparison. There's a kind of inevitability about where he's going, whereas Mordkovitch is full of uncertainty. Bean gives us plain speaking - beautiful, deeply felt plain speaking, while Mordkovitch is continually hesitant, trembling on the edge, lower lip quivering.

I don't have the necessary command of technicalities to do better than this I'm afraid, and as I read it through again it all seems like an inadequate description of the differences I'm hearing, but it's the best I can do. The differences seem bigger and more obvious when I'm listening, than they do when I'm reading what I've written!

Your level of focus and concentration on these works is truly awe inspiring.  Recently I tend to listen to a lot of new music but don't find I have the time to become so familiar with any one piece, which perhaps is a shame.   Recently I've become interested in the Shostakovich Viola sonata, for instance, but couldn't say anything nearly so rich and specific about it. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 14, 2010, 03:16:09 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2010, 02:40:36 PM
The performance of the Concerto by Bean really is incredible (and I should mention Groves' contribution, which is significant, and as passionate as Solti's)...a performance all Elgarians should hear. At this point I still prefer Kennedy in the Sonata but I haven't done a serious bar by bar comparison yet.

Sarge

    Kennedy has an edge at the level of technique, which shows itself during the most difficult passages where Bean plays them slower. Yet the first movement is faster in Bean/Groves. All of the movements are, in fact. I noticed it immediately, probably because this was what I expected.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2010, 03:21:48 PM
Quote from: drogulus on May 14, 2010, 03:16:09 PM
    Kennedy has an edge at the level of technique, which shows itself during the most difficult passages where Bean plays them slower. Yet the first movement is faster in Bean/Groves. I noticed it immediately, probably because this was what I expected.

You're right of course. I think, technically, Kennedy is the superior fiddler. Whether he's more in tune with Elgar...well, that's the question I'm trying to resolve. Right now, it seems to me, a Korean woman wins the gold. But I have more listening to do.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 03:22:03 PM
Quote from: drogulus on May 14, 2010, 03:16:09 PM
    Kennedy has an edge at the level of technique, which shows itself during the most difficult passages where Bean plays them slower.

My impression is that Kennedy makes his technical strength into a weakness, by letting it overshadow the expressive aspects of what he is playing.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2010, 03:21:48 PM
You're right of course. I think, technically, Kennedy is the superior fiddler. Whether he's more in tune with Elgar...well, that's the question I'm trying to resolve. Right now, it seems to me, a Korean woman wins the gold. But I have more listening to do.

Sarge

She is good, and Solti doesn't hurt.  A little more sensitivity, compared with his recording of the symphonies.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2010, 03:28:08 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 03:22:03 PM
My impression is that Kennedy makes his technical strength into a weakness, by letting it overshadow the expressive aspects of what he is playing.

I don't agree, in either his performance of the Concerto or Sonata...but then, that's why classical music is so fun..it provokes such intense disagreement  ;D

QuoteShe is good, and Solti doesn't hurt.  A little more sensitivity, compared with his recording of the symphonies.

But it is nice, too, to agree on occasion  :)

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 14, 2010, 04:39:10 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 03:22:03 PM
My impression is that Kennedy makes his technical strength into a weakness, by letting it overshadow the expressive aspects of what he is playing.


     I don't agree, either. Not in the case of the Handley recording. I haven't heard the Rattle in too long to comment on it. It isn't even ripped yet. Oh...now it is.

     Both Bean and Kennedy would have been influenced by the example of Menuhin, I imagine. So I should explore that connection.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2010, 04:49:26 PM
Quote from: drogulus on May 14, 2010, 04:39:10 PM
Both Bean and Kennedy would have been influenced by the example of Menuhin, I imagine. So I should explore that connection.

Of course! The Menuhin connection. I should get his recordings too.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 14, 2010, 06:55:53 PM
      (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4136Q8DB1TL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

      This recording doesn't have the reputation of the 1929 recording Menuhin made when he was 16, with Elgar conducting. Still it should be interesting. I'd like to have the Delius, too.

       An odd note: On the Elgar recording above the concertmaster was Hugh Bean. And Nigel Kennedy attended Menuhin's school. So maybe Oswald wasn't the lone gunman after all.  (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cool.gif)
       
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 15, 2010, 12:22:50 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 03:22:03 PM
My impression is that Kennedy makes his technical strength into a weakness, by letting it overshadow the expressive aspects of what he is playing.
That's the flavour of my reaction to Kennedy's Elgar VC too, though I'm inclined to think that when I say that, I'm describing the kind of feelings I get, rather than responding to a genuine weakness of his. In other words, in broad terms I'm looking for a particular kind of approach (partly consciously and partly subconsciously), which Kennedy doesn't offer (he offers something else instead); and so to me it seems that he overdoes the technical fireworks aspect. If I'm wanting an apple and they give me an orange, I might get irritated by that, but it doesn't necessarily mean there's something wrong with the orange.

I'm encountering a similar problem with Hahn's version of the Elgar VC right now, having had the opportunity to listen to it yesterday. She definitely doesn't approach it in what I regard as 'the right spirit', but I'm not sure yet whether the problem lies with her playing or with my expectations.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 15, 2010, 12:50:16 AM
Quote from: drogulus on May 14, 2010, 06:55:53 PM
      (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4136Q8DB1TL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

      This recording doesn't have the reputation of the 1929 recording Menuhin made when he was 16, with Elgar conducting. Still it should be interesting.

There are very favourable old Gramophone reviews of it here:

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/April%201966/45/792739/ELGAR.+Violin+Concerto+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61.+Yehudi+Menuhin+%28violin%29%2C+New+Philharmonia+Orchestra+conducted+by+Sir+Adrian+Boult.+HMV (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/April%201966/45/792739/ELGAR.+Violin+Concerto+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61.+Yehudi+Menuhin+%28violin%29%2C+New+Philharmonia+Orchestra+conducted+by+Sir+Adrian+Boult.+HMV)

and here:

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/May%201984/30/754912/ELGAR.+Violin+Concerto+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61+Yehudi+e+Menuhin+%28yin%29+New+Philharmonia+Orches+tra++Sir+Adrian+Boult.+HMV+Concert+Classics (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/May%201984/30/754912/ELGAR.+Violin+Concerto+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61+Yehudi+e+Menuhin+%28yin%29+New+Philharmonia+Orches+tra++Sir+Adrian+Boult.+HMV+Concert+Classics)

It's a lovely version, and no mistake; and listening to it a few days ago after a long period (years) of neglect, I was surprised to discover how very fine it is. It seems a lot more moving now than I thought it was, but of course all that's happened is that I have changed over the years. His cadenza really comes to grips with the broken-ness and heartache of the music, and Boult's control of the subtle but crucial orchestral accompaniment seems superb to these ears. It may be close to sacrilege to say it, but if the chips were down I'd choose this, Menuhin's later recording, with Boult, in preference to his classic recording with Elgar. (I just checked the Penguin Guide and discovered that they give it three stars and mark it out as a 'key' recording.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: abidoful on May 15, 2010, 01:36:44 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 14, 2010, 09:29:04 AM
Concert Allegro, Op. 46 is Elgar's best piano works but his other works for piano are nice too. I have these recordings of piano Elgar:

Maria Garzón (ASV) - Enigma Variations (original piano version), Concert Allegro etc.
David Owen Norris (Elgar Editions) - Vol 1 Solo Piano Music
Peter Pettinger (Chandos) -  Piano Music including Concert Allegro
Ashley Wass (Naxos) - Piano Music including Enigma Variations (original piano version)

The last two together give broad coveridge of Elgar's piano works.  ;)

If forced to choose only one, Pettinger would be my choice.

Thanks for recommending  :) Wating to take a plunge in to Sir Edward Elgar and finding some treasures...!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 15, 2010, 07:15:27 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 15, 2010, 12:22:50 AM
That's the flavour of my reaction to Kennedy's Elgar VC too, though I'm inclined to think that when I say that, I'm describing the kind of feelings I get, rather than responding to a genuine weakness of his. In other words, in broad terms I'm looking for a particular kind of approach (partly consciously and partly subconsciously), which Kennedy doesn't offer (he offers something else instead); and so to me it seems that he overdoes the technical fireworks aspect. If I'm wanting an apple and they give me an orange, I might get irritated by that, but it doesn't necessarily mean there's something wrong with the orange.


      That sounds like me. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/shocked.gif)

      It seems like Kennedy employs his formidable skills to their fullest in this work and I think he should because the concerto calls for it. Bean gets the result he does from an understanding of Elgar (and a particular history of performance). This allows him to make up for what I see as a deficit in his abilities by comparison with a virtuoso like Kennedy, who is also operating from the same tradition and training. I might prefer Bean in the concerto, all things considered, but in spite of his relative weakness and not because of it. As it happens I'm delighted with the Bean version and my reasons are what I give here. He knows how to play this music correctly (as I'm bound to hear it, given what I've absorbed from and about Elgar's music). So does Kennedy, which makes comparison interesting and not exactly the usual contrast of approaches.

     It throws into relief an issue which may otherwise be obscured. I've given thought to this in another context due to my continued amazement at the recordings that Barbirolli made with the Hallé Orchestra. Many of these recordings seemed poised on a knife edge between brilliance and incompetence without stopping at ho-hum. The shorthand way of dealing with this is to say that feeling trumps technique. I'd say it can, but a little more technique would definitely be helpful.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 15, 2010, 07:49:06 AM
Quote from: drogulus on May 15, 2010, 07:15:27 AM
The shorthand way of dealing with this is to say that feeling trumps technique. I'd say it can, but a little more technique would definitely be helpful.
In this context, there's the nice little story I've quoted some few dozen posts ago, where Beatrice Harrison recalls Elgar saying to her before a performance of the cello concerto: 'Give it 'em, Beatrice. Don't worry about the notes or anything. Give 'em the spirit.'
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 15, 2010, 08:15:32 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 15, 2010, 07:49:06 AM
In this context, there's the nice little story I've quoted some few dozen posts ago, where Beatrice Harrison recalls Elgar saying to her before a performance of the cello concerto: 'Give it 'em, Beatrice. Don't worry about the notes or anything. Give 'em the spirit.'

     No, that was Ferneyhough, wasn't it? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/tongue.gif)


     Certainly given his druthers Elgar would want the spirit and the notes. It may take a bit of listening to arrive at the position that the more technically gifted artist (in this case Kennedy) does not lack the proper spirit, he just has technique to burn in a work that is clearly designed to burn as much as can be summoned.

     Aww, I don't even like concertos. That is, I have to overcome my disposition to hear the kinds of display concertos exhibit typically as plumage to attract an audience of ooh- and ahhh-ers, who are not like me at all! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/angel.gif)
     
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 19, 2010, 01:36:05 PM
Just received the recording of the Elgar cello concerto that was highly recommended by David Ross (although he seems to be on hiatus from the boards after a very nasty dust-up on our alter-ego board, CMG).

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512MaZw4ZXL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I also have recordings of this concerto by Gastinel, du Pre, Navarro and Harrison.  (Amazing I have so many recordings and have never hear the piece!)  Can't decide whether to listen to this, or the violin sonata.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 19, 2010, 01:49:27 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 19, 2010, 01:36:05 PM
Can't decide whether to listen to this, or the violin sonata.
You could take comfort in the fact that whichever you choose, you can't get it wrong.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 20, 2010, 02:04:13 PM
     Lovers of the Bean performance of the Violin Sonata might want to hear the String Quartet recording made by Bean's Music Group of London. I'm just getting to know this work, but my initial reaction is very favorable.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 20, 2010, 11:21:04 PM
First listen was quite pleasant, particularly the first movement.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MD%2B5ijGQL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 21, 2010, 08:27:49 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 20, 2010, 11:21:04 PM
First listen was quite pleasant, particularly the first movement.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MD%2B5ijGQL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Encouraging start! (Be prepared for layers and layers to become apparent, the more you listen.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 21, 2010, 08:36:43 AM
Quote from: drogulus on May 20, 2010, 02:04:13 PM
     Lovers of the Bean performance of the Violin Sonata might want to hear the String Quartet recording made by Bean's Music Group of London. I'm just getting to know this work, but my initial reaction is very favorable.
All those chamber works represent Elgar at his best, in my view, and I agree, no one could go wrong with Bean's versions both of the violin sonata, and the quartet. The piano quintet is another superb work, but unfortunately I don't think there's a recording with Bean on it. At any rate, I've never encountered one.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brahmsian on June 23, 2010, 10:09:21 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 04:40:46 AM
and the Ehnes/A. Davis in my hands now.

Hi Sarge,

Regarding the Ehnes recording of Elgar's VC, how did you like it?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 24, 2010, 10:06:37 AM
Quote from: Brahmsian on June 23, 2010, 10:09:21 AM
Hi Sarge,

Regarding the Ehnes recording of Elgar's VC, how did you like it?

I listened twice, thought it sounded very close to Kennedy, which disappoimted me...not because I dislike Kennedy/Handley (I do, it remains one of my favorites) but because I was hoping for something different.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on June 27, 2010, 12:04:23 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 24, 2010, 10:27:07 PM
I'm afraid I'm in trouble again.  Listened to the violin concerto through twice (Kennedy/Rattle).  I just don't get it.  Such a beautiful opening, such a haunting theme, such wonderful harmonies, such a wonderful Straussian flourish from the horns.  Then the solo violin enters.  After stating the opening motif, to many notes.  Too, too many notes.  Incessant running up and down the finger board, to what effect?  What is Elgar trying to tell us?  The only message flashing through my brain is, "please make it stop!"  I'm evidently missing something here.

I feel very differently than you do. Most people just assume what they want to about this work or any work by Elgar and pass it off without giving it much of a chance. I'm not sure how much time you have spent with Elgar's "Violin Concerto," but many concerti have sections that are specifically composed for the soloist and Elgar's beautiful composition is no exception. Perhaps you just don't enjoy it, which is fine, but don't discount the composition because you don't "get it." There are plenty of people that do "get it." It's not Elgar's or the music's fault that you don't understand it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on June 27, 2010, 12:09:03 PM
If you read on, I think you will find that Scarpia had a Damasine conversion.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on June 27, 2010, 12:10:30 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 27, 2010, 12:04:23 PM
I feel very differently than you do. Most people just assume what they want to about this work or any work by Elgar and pass it off without giving it much of a chance. I'm not sure how much time you have spent with Elgar's "Violin Concerto," but many concerti have sections that specifically composed for the soloist and Elgar's beautiful composition is no exception. Perhaps you don't enjoy, which is fine, but don't discount the composition because you don't "get it." There are plenty of people that do "get it." It's not Elgar's or the music's fault that you don't understand it.

Umm, can't really speak for Scarpia, but I think he feels very differently about that piece now (as the subsequent pages of this thread reveal, if you go on to read them). In fact, he's spoken eloquently recently, on another thread, about how reading the thoughts of posters like Elgarian helped him find the key to this piece (or however it is best described). Thus demonstrating once again the value of an open mind (and I think you will be able to guess what I am thinking about....)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on June 27, 2010, 12:22:25 PM
Quote from: Luke on June 27, 2010, 12:10:30 PM
Umm, can't really speak for Scarpia, but I think he feels very differently about that piece now (as the subsequent pages of this thread reveal, if you go on to read them). In fact, he's spoken eloquently recently, on another thread, about how reading the thoughts of posters like Elgarian helped him find the key to this piece (or however it is best described). Thus demonstrating once again the value of an open mind (and I think you will be able to guess what I am thinking about....)

Oh okay, I'm glad Scarpia enjoys this work now. There are many pages to this thread, so you have to excuse for not reading through them all. Yes, an open-mind is all it takes, but there are always instances where someone doesn't enjoy a piece of music, but the composer certainly isn't to be blamed for that of course.

I have expressed my dislike for the Second Viennese School of Music for years, but now, I find enjoyment in many of their compositions. All it took was for me to open my mind up. That said, I have to come to adore Berg's music in particular.

Anyway, I'm going to be listening to more Elgar over the course of the next few days, so I can become reaquinted with this fine composer.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 27, 2010, 12:59:00 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 27, 2010, 12:04:23 PM
There are plenty of people that do "get it." It's not Elgar's or the music's fault that you don't understand it.
I'm only echoing here what others have said already, but actually Scarpia's open-mindedness and steadily developing enjoyment and understanding of the VC (pretty well documented in this thread, as you'll find if you read on) was quite exciting to follow. There is, as you say, a lot to read in this thread - but it was one of the most rewarding forum conversations I've ever participated in, with a variety of opinions - very knowledgeable and sensitive opinions too - being expressed and contemplated. I think everyone (myself included) found themselves re-examining previously-held ideas about the violin concerto, and taking a fresh look at them.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on July 28, 2010, 11:28:33 AM
TTT

Yes, this has been a fine and illumining discussion.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on February 20, 2011, 08:45:30 AM
Another interesting Elgar experience.  Listened to this disc:

[asin]B000000SES[/asin]

(actually I have it as part of a boxed set).  Cockaigne is a wonderful piece depicting 19th century London, with lively, sentimental and "noble" themes with generous deployment of the resources of the overture.  The Enigma variations are well known to everyone on this thread, and both pieces benefit from beautiful recorded sound which allows you to hear every instrument of the orchestra with clarity.  Very nice.   But the reason I bring it up, there is the "Introduction and Allegro."  I listened to the piece in the Davis recording and thought, "well, that's a decent performance, but I remember the piece being a lot more interesting."  I wonder why I recall the Introduction and Allegro as being such a magnificent piece of music, and epitome of English music for strings.  Then, I remembered.

[asin]B00004R95R[/asin]

I got the disc out, with a little anxiety that one of my "favorite" recordings would turn out to be a let-down.

My lord, you cannot believe the difference this performance makes!  Every phrase that just lays there like a limp noodle in the Davis performance, seemingly without purpose, jumps out of the air in Barbirolli's performance.  Barbirolli knows exactly how each phrase should be articulated, how it emerges from what precedes and how it prepares for what comes next.  He knows how each instrument contributes to every instant of glorious string sonority in this music.  Every note is alive.  Davis just doesn't understand how this music works.

For those who claim that having more than one recording of a piece is a waste of money and time because it doesn't matter, I challenge you to listen to this recording and any other recording and then say it doesn't matter.

And one final thought, if you haven't heard Barbirolli's Elgar, you haven't heard Elgar!


Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 20, 2011, 09:11:42 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on February 20, 2011, 08:45:30 AM
And one final thought, if you haven't heard Barbirolli's Elgar, you haven't heard Elgar!


Agreed! I don't think Andrew Davis is an inspired Elgarian. Barbirolli is. And Boult - his EMI Second Symphony is, to my ears, superior to Barbirolli's.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on February 20, 2011, 09:12:14 AM
What if you've heard Elgar's Elgar, have you heard Elgar then?

being facetious - thanks for that excellent post. Am tempted to go and put on that Barbirolli disc now, actually...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Guido on February 20, 2011, 09:21:43 AM
Is Falstaff his best orchestral work as he thought? It's mightily impressive, but I don't know the two symphonies at all well yet. Robin Holloway puts it (with Tapiola) as the greatest tone poem ever written.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on February 20, 2011, 09:34:39 AM
He certainly does! I remember those two lectures... It's hardly ever talked about round here, is it, which is odd, given its quality. It certainly is a mighty piece, and a tender one too - I can't help but compare it to Strauss's portrait symphonic poems and think that Elgar comes off as the greater humanist of the two (Don Quixote excepted, but even then...)  I think those two, Tapiola and Falstaff, represent the two poles of what symphonic poem can do - there was never a landscape piece more purely elemental than the Sibelius, nor a portrait piece more rounded, complex and understanding than the Elgar. In that respect, Robin has a point, I think.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on February 20, 2011, 10:13:17 AM
Quote from: sul G (again) on February 20, 2011, 09:12:14 AM
What if you've heard Elgar's Elgar, have you heard Elgar then?

If you call the transfers of those old shellac discs "hearing" I guess the answer is yes.   ;D

But, on the other hand, we can't take for granted that the composer is the best conductor of his (or her) own music. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Klaatu on February 20, 2011, 10:15:36 AM
Just my own silly take on the ending of Elgar's VC....

Once in a blue moon a piece of music brings to mind a really vivid mental picture or a literary reference. These occasions are few but very intense. Two examples:

1) My first hearing of the opening of Pettersson's 8th symphony immediately produced an image of a train, crowded with Jewish men, women and children on their way to an extermination camp. (Ever since that moment I've had no time for those who see Pettersson's music as "self-pitying" - to me it speaks of a composer's pity for others, and his furious anger at injustice.)

2) The beautiful flute solo that interrupts the dark, doom-laden pages of the finale of Mahler's Tenth is, for me, Thomas Hardy's poem The Darkling Thrush set to music. (The poem itself I find deeply moving; my association of it with Mahler's music is sufficient to make my eyes well up, and nowadays the passage has added poignancy since it reminds me of a dear friend who died last year; the flute was her instrument. The end of Mahler 10 has become one of those pieces of music which I both adore and find totally unbearable!)

Returning to the Elgar VC - the ending of the piece, where the soloist lingers yearningly over remembered themes from the earlier movements, and then sweeps on to an upbeat conclusion, always brings to my mind the last lines of D H Lawrence's Sons and Lovers:

She was the only thing that held him up, himself, amid all this. And she was gone, intermingled herself. He wanted her to touch him, have him alongside with her.

But no, he would not give in. Turning sharply, he walked towards the city's gold phosphorescence. His fists were shut, his mouth set fast. He would not take that direction, to the darkness, to follow her. He walked towards the faintly humming, glowing town, quickly.


A bit daft, maybe. But I hear these lines in my head - or rather, sense the emotion behind them - every time I hear the final pages of EE's lovely concerto.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on February 20, 2011, 03:12:38 PM
Quote from: Guido. on February 20, 2011, 09:21:43 AM
Is Falstaff his best orchestral work as he thought? It's mightily impressive, but I don't know the two symphonies at all well yet. Robin Holloway puts it (with Tapiola) as the greatest tone poem ever written.

I'm just starting to warm to the symphonies, but I'd still call Falstaff a stand-out.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 22, 2011, 10:12:34 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on February 20, 2011, 08:45:30 AM
But the reason I bring it up, there is the "Introduction and Allegro."  For those who claim that having more than one recording of a piece is a waste of money and time because it doesn't matter, I challenge you to listen to this recording and any other recording and then say it doesn't matter.

And one final thought, if you haven't heard Barbirolli's Elgar, you haven't heard Elgar!

I seem to have only three versions of this work:

Capella Istropolitana / Adrian Leaper / Naxos 8.550331
English String Orchestra / William Boughton / Nimbus NIM 5008
Hallé Orchestra / Mark Elder / CD HLL 7507

I am planning to buy the EMI 30CD box which contains Barbirolli. It seems that my wait has been for nothing since the price of that boxset just won't come down.  >:(
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 22, 2011, 10:37:01 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 22, 2011, 10:12:34 AM
I seem to have only three versions of this work:

Capella Istropolitana / Adrian Leaper / Naxos 8.550331
English String Orchestra / William Boughton / Nimbus NIM 5008
Hallé Orchestra / Mark Elder / CD HLL 7507

I am planning to buy the EMI 30CD box which contains Barbirolli. It seems that my wait has been for nothing since the price of that boxset just won't come down.  >:(
Where are you looking? I see it is $45 at Amazon US and even as low as 33 pounds at Amazon UK.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 22, 2011, 10:57:19 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 22, 2011, 10:37:01 AM
Where are you looking? I see it is $45 at Amazon US and even as low as 33 pounds at Amazon UK.

I hoped for getting it for 30 euros (£23+shipping).  After all, this is a supercheap re-re-release of old material...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 22, 2011, 11:01:09 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 20, 2011, 09:11:42 AMAgreed! I don't think Andrew Davis is an inspired Elgarian. Barbirolli is. And Boult - his EMI Second Symphony is, to my ears, superior to Barbirolli's.

I love Barbirolli's Elgar recordings. Those are my reference recordings even after all these years. Andrew Davis' Elgar is pretty good, but Sinopoli's is better and, of course, Boult as well.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on February 22, 2011, 11:06:53 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 22, 2011, 10:57:19 AM
I hoped for getting it for 30 euros (£23+shipping).  After all, this is a supercheap re-re-release of old material...

Let me explain how this works.  They make a certain number of them, they sit in their warehouse, then they run out.   It the publisher gets truly alarmed that they will never sell they may drop the price to an obscenely low level.  That's how I got a new copy of the EMI complete Richter edition for $5.  But if that was going to happen it would likely have happened already.  Do you think you will get a better deal when there are none left at the publisher?

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 22, 2011, 11:08:38 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 22, 2011, 10:57:19 AM
I hoped for getting it for 30 euros (£23+shipping).  After all, this is a supercheap re-re-release of old material...
There is a MP france seller for EUR 34. $45 is close to EUR 33. In any case, it won't go down until you buy it - that's when they will have the sale! Never fails for me!  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 22, 2011, 11:14:20 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on February 22, 2011, 11:06:53 AM
Let me explain how this works.  They make a certain number of them, they sit in their warehouse, then they run out.   It the publisher gets truly alarmed that they will never sell they may drop the price to an obscenely low level.  That's how I got a new copy of the EMI complete Richter edition for $5.  But if that was going to happen it would likely have happened already.  Do you think you will get a better deal when there are none left at the publisher?

Why are you so worried about my purchases? If I don't get a deal good enough I don't simply buy. That's what all people do all the time.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on February 22, 2011, 11:48:31 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 22, 2011, 11:14:20 AM
Why are you so worried about my purchases? If I don't get a deal good enough I don't simply buy. That's what all people do all the time.

I'm just saying, do you want it for the cheapest price you can get it, or do you want it only if it is that cheap?  It you want it for the cheapest price you can get it I'd advise you to get it now.  If you want it only if it is that cheap, that's fine too.  But since you are a self-described Elgar fanatic, who should have the set if you don't?

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 22, 2011, 12:56:51 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on February 22, 2011, 11:48:31 AM
I'm just saying, do you want it for the cheapest price you can get it, or do you want it only if it is that cheap?  It you want it for the cheapest price you can get it I'd advise you to get it now.  If you want it only if it is that cheap, that's fine too.  But since you are a self-described Elgar fanatic, who should have the set if you don't?

You would think somebody who is an Elgar fanatic would own most of his recordings, but apparently this isn't the case with this poster.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on February 22, 2011, 12:59:53 PM
And from this senator's standpoint, $45 is a reasonably attractive price point for a 30-disc box.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 23, 2011, 06:12:27 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on February 22, 2011, 11:48:31 AM
I'm just saying, do you want it for the cheapest price you can get it, or do you want it only if it is that cheap?  It you want it for the cheapest price you can get it I'd advise you to get it now.  If you want it only if it is that cheap, that's fine too.  But since you are a self-described Elgar fanatic, who should have the set if you don't?

What I want is to be rich. Unfortunately that isn't an option because I am either talented nor lucky. So, I try to optimize my purchases so that I can get as much as possible those things I want. Not buying expensive Elgar makes it possible to buy other things I like.

Self-described Elgar fanatic? I don't think so. Having a favorite composer makes nobody a fanatic...

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 22, 2011, 12:56:51 PM
You would think somebody who is an Elgar fanatic would own most of his recordings, but apparently this isn't the case with this poster.

See above. Am I really that fanatic about Elgar? Besides, I own about half of the box already. If I didn't have any recordings of the box I would have bought it ages ago.   ;)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2011, 12:59:53 PM
And from this senator's standpoint, $45 is a reasonably attractive price point for a 30-disc box.

Yes, but who buys 30-disc boxes nonchalantly?

Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 22, 2011, 11:08:38 AM
There is a MP france seller for EUR 34. $45 is close to EUR 33. In any case, it won't go down until you buy it - that's when they will have the sale! Never fails for me!  ;)

Thanks for the hint! I have just ordered the boxset from Amazon.fr MP for 33.95€ + 3.40€ for shipping.  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on February 23, 2011, 07:55:52 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 23, 2011, 06:12:27 AM
What I want is to be rich. Unfortunately that isn't an option because I am either talented nor lucky. So, I try to optimize my purchases so that I can get as much as possible those things I want. Not buying expensive Elgar makes it possible to buy other things I like.

Self-described Elgar fanatic? I don't think so. Having a favorite composer makes nobody a fanatic...

Good to hear you've come to your senses and acknowledge that Elgar is a minor composer.   ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2011, 09:41:41 PM
Thought I would revive this thread...

I really enjoy Elgar's music, but I do not love it, which I guess is only natural as I can't love everything nor can anyone else. Maybe I should ask this question: how do we know we love a composer's music or not? How do we separate liking and loving something? Like, for example, I love Bruckner's music, but I only like Mahler's music, how does one reconcile these differences?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: abidoful on May 16, 2011, 11:16:30 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2011, 09:41:41 PM
Thought I would revive this thread...

I really enjoy Elgar's music, but I do not love it, which I guess is only natural as I can't love everything nor can anyone else. Maybe I should ask this question: how do we know we love a composer's music or not? How do we separate liking and loving something? Like, for example, I love Bruckner's music, but I only like Mahler's music, how does one reconcile these differences?
I don't know but its only naturala I think. Especially with Mahler versus Bruckner; I have the same thing with those.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2011, 11:22:34 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2011, 09:41:41 PM
Thought I would revive this thread...

I really enjoy Elgar's music, but I do not love it, which I guess is only natural as I can't love everything nor can anyone else. Maybe I should ask this question: how do we know we love a composer's music or not? How do we separate liking and loving something? Like, for example, I love Bruckner's music, but I only like Mahler's music, how does one reconcile these differences?


That's something for your dormant soulmate thread...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on May 16, 2011, 11:53:46 PM
Quote from: abidoful on May 16, 2011, 11:16:30 PM
I don't know but its only naturala I think. Especially with Mahler versus Bruckner; I have the same thing with those.

Mahler is too clever. He's the smartest boy in the class, and he knows it. But I do quite like him!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 16, 2011, 11:56:14 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 16, 2011, 11:53:46 PM
Mahler is too clever. He's the smartest boy in the class, and he knows it. But I do quite like him!

I generally agree, Mahler is a showman.  Bruckner could not have written any other way, as evidenced by the fact that all of his symphonies sound alike.   :P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 17, 2011, 03:36:51 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2011, 09:41:41 PMHow do we know we love a composer's music or not? How do we separate liking and loving something?

In my case I can tell by how many recordings I own of any single work. One or two=like. Three to Six=crush. Seven to ten=love.  ;D
As many as possible, expense be damned=soulmate  0:)  Mahler, Sibelius, Wagner, Bruckner occupy the last category.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidW on May 17, 2011, 06:44:33 AM
MI if you find yourself listening to the same composer years later, despite knowing every note it's love.  If you've moved on, it was mere infatuation. ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: abidoful on May 17, 2011, 06:52:56 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 16, 2011, 11:56:14 PM
I generally agree, Mahler is a showman.  Bruckner could not have written any other way, as evidenced by the fact that all of his symphonies sound alike.   :P
I think Mahler is "modern"- and I don't mean a musical style but an attitude or a character- in the sense that he's always busy. He has lots of impressions and is quick to share them. With Bruckner i have a feeling of a fine old wine, it has had time to grow and mature.

Basically Mahler lacks debth. But I really don't want to say that becouse that's who he is, and what he sought after apparently. Still, Mahler was a great musician and a greta composer anyway. Just that I dont relate to him or his music doesn't give me what I look from music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2011, 08:30:37 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 17, 2011, 06:44:33 AM
MI if you find yourself listening to the same composer years later, despite knowing every note it's love.  If you've moved on, it was mere infatuation. ;D

In that case, Ravel, Bartok, Bruckner, Vaughan Williams, Berg, Stravinsky, and Villa-Lobos fills that bill quite nicely. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on May 18, 2011, 06:45:11 PM
I feel bad about Sibelius. I have a number of sets of the symphonies, and still like the music, but I have the feeling there's nothing more to be mined from the listening experience, whereas others keep me coming back for more.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 18, 2011, 06:48:38 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 18, 2011, 06:45:11 PM
I feel bad about Sibelius. I have a number of sets of the symphonies, and still like the music, but I have the feeling there's nothing more to be mined from the listening experience, whereas others keep me coming back for more.

I have just the opposite reaction, at least from late Sibelius. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 18, 2011, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 18, 2011, 06:48:38 PM
I have just the opposite reaction, at least from late Sibelius.

Yes, I can listen to Sibelius' 7th and Tapiola and just marvel at the tapestry of sound being pummeled at me. Hell, I think Sibelius' 4th is a masterpiece too. Not later Sibelius, but a fine work that never gets old or even familiar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 18, 2011, 06:53:49 PM
This is the Elgar thread?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 18, 2011, 08:18:43 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 18, 2011, 06:53:49 PM
This is the Elgar thread?

Yes, at one point, it was. ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 19, 2011, 02:16:38 AM
I finally listened to this Elgar piece for the first time:
[asin]B000JLPNO8[/asin]
The Spirit of England is by Elgar and what a remarkable piece. Is anyone else familiar with it? The first part seems uplifting, but quickly makes way for sadder music in the second part - occassionally devastating in tone/atmosphere. The third part is titled 'For the Fallen' and mixes it up, but you are never far from the fact that this is a wartime piece. My understanding is that 'Spirit' is a sort of requiem, using three of Laurence Binyon's poems. Very well performed it is too. The singing is moving and well balanced with the orchestra.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hattoff on May 19, 2011, 05:31:03 AM
Yes, The Spirit of England is my favourite Elgar work. It is unbelievably beautiful and very moving. Even a lot of Elgarians don't know it well but they should  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 20, 2011, 04:51:17 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 19, 2011, 02:16:38 AM
The Spirit of England is by Elgar and what a remarkable piece. Is anyone else familiar with it?

It is a great work indeed. The only version I have is Lott/Hickox on EMI. Time to get Alexander Gibson?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2011, 02:20:32 PM
Just bought:

[asin]B000PGTIBQ[/asin]

I've heard these were definitive performances of these two symphonies. I have a composer friend who's big into Elgar who directed me towards these recordings. I generally like Boult, so it should be good. Anybody else own this? Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on May 25, 2011, 06:39:59 PM
I still fume when I think of how Boult wasn't allowed to move the second violins to the right side of the orchestra. Bloody philistines.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2011, 06:43:05 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 25, 2011, 06:39:59 PM
I still fume when I think of how Boult wasn't allowed to move the second violins to the right side of the orchestra. Bloody philistines.

But how are the performances?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 26, 2011, 02:39:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 25, 2011, 06:43:05 PM
But how are the performances?


The performances are, of course, good. I marginally prefer Boult's EMI recordings, though. His Lyrita readings sound drier to these ears.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 26, 2011, 12:18:55 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 26, 2011, 02:39:36 AM

The performances are, of course, good. I marginally prefer Boult's EMI recordings, though. His Lyrita readings sound drier to these ears.

I'll probably end up getting the EMI recordings as well. Why not? I think Elgar deserves a fair shake from time to time. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 26, 2011, 01:16:50 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 26, 2011, 12:18:55 PM
I'll probably end up getting the EMI recordings as well. Why not? I think Elgar deserves a fair shake from time to time. :)


He does. The final movement of the First and the middle movements of the Second are my favourites. If a conductor gets those right (to me), I consider it a good performance. If I get lifted from my seat, it is a great performance. Colin Davis is superb in the First, Boult terrific in his EMI Second. I don't know Solti's interpretation, alas. But that will change.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 26, 2011, 01:23:31 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 26, 2011, 01:16:50 PM

He does. The final movement of the First and the middle movements of the Second are my favourites. If a conductor gets those right (to me), I consider it a good performance. If I get lifted from my seat, it is a great performance. Colin Davis is superb in the First, Boult terrific in his EMI Second. I don't know Solti's interpretation, alas. But that will change.

Not all change is good...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 26, 2011, 01:27:32 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 26, 2011, 01:23:31 PM
Not all change is good...


I can only know that retrospectively. So we'll see.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on May 26, 2011, 01:29:46 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 26, 2011, 01:27:32 PM

I can only know that retrospectively. So we'll see.  ;)

What has been heard cannot be un-heard.   ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 26, 2011, 02:14:48 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 26, 2011, 01:29:46 PM
What has been heard cannot be un-heard.   ;D


That's true.  :o Still, I'll risk it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 26, 2011, 03:16:09 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 19, 2011, 02:16:38 AM
I finally listened to this Elgar piece for the first time:
[asin]B000JLPNO8[/asin]
The Spirit of England is by Elgar and what a remarkable piece. Is anyone else familiar with it? The first part seems uplifting, but quickly makes way for sadder music in the second part - occassionally devastating in tone/atmosphere. The third part is titled 'For the Fallen' and mixes it up, but you are never far from the fact that this is a wartime piece. My understanding is that 'Spirit' is a sort of requiem, using three of Laurence Binyon's poems. Very well performed it is too. The singing is moving and well balanced with the orchestra.



     I have the Gibson/Scottish NO recording, which is very good.

     
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 26, 2011, 02:14:48 PM

That's true.  :o Still, I'll risk it.

     I'd go with Haitink before Solti if I wanted to try a non-British conductor.

     I listened to the Solti clips on Amazon. Yeah, that's what I thought. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif) But the way he punches it up sounds pretty good to me. Maybe you should give these a try.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: drogulus on May 26, 2011, 03:35:42 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 20, 2011, 04:51:17 AM
It is a great work indeed. The only version I have is Lott/Hickox on EMI. Time to get Alexander Gibson?

     Yes, Gibson by all means.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on May 26, 2011, 05:55:19 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 26, 2011, 01:29:46 PM
What has been heard cannot be un-heard.   ;D

Listen with a bottle of strong spirits close at hand, and if that fails, a hammer (for the hitting of the head with).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on May 30, 2011, 09:11:24 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 19, 2011, 02:16:38 AM
I finally listened to this Elgar piece for the first time:
[asin]B000JLPNO8[/asin]


Yes, I know it and rate it highly. Possibly partisan, but my favourite recording is the Gibson one, I am in the choir. It was recorded at Paisley Abbey and has an appropriately reverberant acoustic. However, the crown of the performance is Teresa Cahill who soars on the top line and sings the quiet moments with intensity.

Samples here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Coronation-Ode-Spirit-England/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1306775382&sr=1-1

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 17, 2011, 01:24:16 PM
Quote from: knight66 on May 30, 2011, 09:11:24 AM
However, the crown of the performance is Teresa Cahill who soars on the top line and sings the quiet moments with intensity.

Oh so true.

I listen to The Spirit of England more often than any other single piece by Elgar (it's far and away his most outrageously neglected and undervalued work, as I've maintained long, and often), and the recording with Cahill/Gibson/SNO utterly nails it, like no other.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 17, 2011, 01:34:23 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 19, 2011, 02:16:38 AM
The Spirit of England is by Elgar and what a remarkable piece. Is anyone else familiar with it?

It's carved into my soul, by now. Here's part of post #51, from the 'Walking with Elgar' thread (see http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,12196.msg338396.html#msg338396 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,12196.msg338396.html#msg338396)):

I was sixteen when I first heard the Introduction and Allegro for Strings, which music seemed to emanate from a place that was at once deeply rooted within me, yet also seemed to imply that there was some place 'out there' that I needed to find. So I was bound to make my way to the Malvern Hills eventually (though I grew to know a lot more of Elgar's music before that), and at first when I arrived there I thought 'this is the place'. And in a strictly biographical sense, of course, the Malvern Hills and countryside are, indeed, 'the place'. But over time I realised that 'the place' was really all of England, and Malvern was a kind of symbolic focus for that. And then again, later, I realised that this 'England' was really only a kind of focus for something still deeper and more profound. (I think it's Gimli, isn't it, at Helms Deep, who stamps on the ground and says something like 'this place has strong bones'? Well, this idea of 'England' seemed to be like that.) So this 'England' itself was not so much a place as an idea - like Blake's 'Albion'. It has nothing to do with nationalism; it's partly to do with patriotism, but less so than you might think; it has something to do with landscape, but also more than just landscape - something to do with roots, and belonging, and certain kinds of ideals (noble and heroic ideals, some of them), mingled with a kind of indefinable sadness.

And the point about Elgar is that his music is like an admission ticket into this place/idea. So which of his works, I might ask, is the best ticket? The symphonies are wonderful - I've loved them for decades. The chamber works, so very very different, yet so recognisably Elgar, mark another high point. The cello concerto, the violin concerto - sheer magic, and on and on I could go. But the work by Elgar that I would choose above all others is The Spirit of England (most perfectly and powerfully represented by the Alexander Gibson/Scottish National Orchestra recording, mentioned above, with Teresa Cahill as soloist).

It lasts about half an hour. It's hardly ever performed, I think. I suspect the three currently available recordings sell poorly (though I don't know). But here's Elgar at his most profound. It may not be his greatest music in a technical sense - I'm not competent to judge that. But I believe it's his greatest work of art, in the broadest, most humanistic sense. It's based on three poems by Laurence Binyon, but the literal meaning of the words is really only a kind of rough guide to the meaning of the whole work, which expresses Elgar's deepest feelings about the anguish of war; the nobility of sacrifice; the despair created by the loss of thousands upon thousands of brave young men, and the sheer determination and need to come to terms with that and above all, to remember them appropriately; and the frightening mixture of beauty and pain that inhabits the making of music that deals with such profound thoughts and feelings. I find it impossible still, to listen to it without tears, and without feeling that this may be the most profound work of art I know.

If someone told me I could only listen to one more piece of music, (with silence to follow forever after), I'd choose The Spirit of England to be that final piece.

See also #44 in that thread, and the discussions thereabouts.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 17, 2011, 09:29:27 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 17, 2011, 01:34:23 PM
It's carved into my soul, by now. Here's part of post #51, from the 'Walking with Elgar' thread (see http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,12196.msg338396.html#msg338396 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,12196.msg338396.html#msg338396)):

I was sixteen when I first heard the Introduction and Allegro for Strings, which music seemed to emanate from a place that was at once deeply rooted within me, yet also seemed to imply that there was some place 'out there' that I needed to find. So I was bound to make my way to the Malvern Hills eventually (though I grew to know a lot more of Elgar's music before that), and at first when I arrived there I thought 'this is the place'. And in a strictly biographical sense, of course, the Malvern Hills and countryside are, indeed, 'the place'. But over time I realised that 'the place' was really all of England, and Malvern was a kind of symbolic focus for that. And then again, later, I realised that this 'England' was really only a kind of focus for something still deeper and more profound. (I think it's Gimli, isn't it, at Helms Deep, who stamps on the ground and says something like 'this place has strong bones'? Well, this idea of 'England' seemed to be like that.) So this 'England' itself was not so much a place as an idea - like Blake's 'Albion'. It has nothing to do with nationalism; it's partly to do with patriotism, but less so than you might think; it has something to do with landscape, but also more than just landscape - something to do with roots, and belonging, and certain kinds of ideals (noble and heroic ideals, some of them), mingled with a kind of indefinable sadness.

And the point about Elgar is that his music is like an admission ticket into this place/idea. So which of his works, I might ask, is the best ticket? The symphonies are wonderful - I've loved them for decades. The chamber works, so very very different, yet so recognisably Elgar, mark another high point. The cello concerto, the violin concerto - sheer magic, and on and on I could go. But the work by Elgar that I would choose above all others is The Spirit of England (most perfectly and powerfully represented by the Alexander Gibson/Scottish National Orchestra recording, mentioned above, with Teresa Cahill as soloist).

It lasts about half an hour. It's hardly ever performed, I think. I suspect the three currently available recordings sell poorly (though I don't know). But here's Elgar at his most profound. It may not be his greatest music in a technical sense - I'm not competent to judge that. But I believe it's his greatest work of art, in the broadest, most humanistic sense. It's based on three poems by Laurence Binyon, but the literal meaning of the words is really only a kind of rough guide to the meaning of the whole work, which expresses Elgar's deepest feelings about the anguish of war; the nobility of sacrifice; the despair created by the loss of thousands upon thousands of brave young men, and the sheer determination and need to come to terms with that and above all, to remember them appropriately; and the frightening mixture of beauty and pain that inhabits the making of music that deals with such profound thoughts and feelings. I find it impossible still, to listen to it without tears, and without feeling that this may be the most profound work of art I know.

If someone told me I could only listen to one more piece of music, (with silence to follow forever after), I'd choose The Spirit of England to be that final piece.

See also #44 in that thread, and the discussions thereabouts.
Oh very interesting indeed! It has been growing on me with each listen too.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 19, 2011, 12:52:44 AM
Has anyone else picked up one of these yet?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wWJ09FuEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'd more or less stopped buying additional recordings of Elgar's chamber music, because (whether through lack of discrimination in my perceptions, or uniformity of excellence in the recordings I can't say) it doesn't seem to matter much which one I listen to. I already have quite a lot, and felt I didn't need more.

But then this arrived on the scene a couple of weeks ago. First - I liked the cover art (though oddly enough I don't think it particularly fits the music very well); second, BBC Music Magazine went ballistic about enthusing over it. Awarded it five billion stars and made it their Record of the Century in All Possible Alternate Universes or something. (Oh, ... you prefer accuracy? OK then, it was their Disc of the Month. And Five Stars.)

Anyway, I can't put my finger on what this recording has, but it certainly has it. Elgar spoke of 'Wood Magic' in relation to these chamber pieces, and there seems to have been a particular association between the piano quintet and a group of weird trees near the cottage he was renting in the middle of a Sussex wood when he composed it. There's a beautiful but slightly sinister spookiness about the quintet whichever version I listen to, but this one (Piers Lane and the Goldner Quartet) seems really to bring that out. It has an ethereal, otherworldly quality, especially in the slow movement. I was surprised, after listening to this, to return to my most-played version (John Ogden/Allegri Quartet) and find it seemed quite dull and plodding by comparison.

Anyway, there you go. I'll be interested to see if this becomes my new favourite recording of these two quintessential late Elgar chamber pieces.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 19, 2011, 04:43:51 AM
If so, it will lessen the pang (on my own part) of missing the Bean recording . . . .

(The name is Bean, isn't it? I'm not just reflecting a recent absorption with Rowan Atkinson on DVD? . . .)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 19, 2011, 05:10:04 AM
Can I just say - you write extraordinarily well about Elgar, Elgarian (Alan). You must identify as closely with him as I do with the composer you, Blakeanly, dubbed Lagrevah...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 19, 2011, 10:38:29 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 19, 2011, 04:43:51 AM
If so, it will lessen the pang (on my own part) of missing the Bean recording . . . .

(The name is Bean, isn't it? I'm not just reflecting a recent absorption with Rowan Atkinson on DVD? . . .)

Do you mean this, Karl?:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Actually although the legendary Mr Bean is the soloist in the violin concerto, and features on the String Quartet, he doesn't play on the Piano Quintet on this 2CD set. I can't be entirely sure, but I don't think he ever recorded the Quintet. So your pangs of desire-for-the-absent need only be two-thirds of the intensity that you think they are.

I suspect that anyone buying this new recording will be well content.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 19, 2011, 10:50:24 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 19, 2011, 05:10:04 AM
Can I just say - you write extraordinarily well about Elgar, Elgarian (Alan). You must identify as closely with him as I do with the composer you, Blakeanly, dubbed Lagrevah...

Well that's very kind of you to say, though my own view of the matter is that I share a lot of Elgar's psychological hang-ups (which means that his music gets deep under my skin because the empathy is unstoppable) but, alas, not a trace of his musical genius.

With your similar very personal feeling for Lagrevah (O, let Him Fire his Furnaces in the Ancient Alleyways of Albion!), you're probably tuning in to the vibes more than most.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 19, 2011, 10:57:06 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 19, 2011, 10:38:29 AM
Do you mean this, Karl?:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Yes; I am desolate and Beanless.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 19, 2011, 11:04:06 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 19, 2011, 10:57:06 AM
Yes; I am desolate and Beanless.
Well, if God had intended us all to have Beans, he'd have given us runners.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 19, 2011, 11:49:09 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 19, 2011, 11:04:06 AM
Well, if God had intended us all to have Beans, he'd have given us runners.


:D


Quote from: Elgarian on August 19, 2011, 10:50:24 AM

Well that's very kind of you to say, though my own view of the matter is that I share a lot of Elgar's psychological hang-ups (which means that his music gets deep under my skin because the empathy is unstoppable) but, alas, not a trace of his musical genius.

With your similar very personal feeling for Lagrevah (O, let Him Fire his Furnaces in the Ancient Alleyways of Albion!), you're probably tuning in to the vibes more than most.


I am a writer (Dutch), and Brian's style and structures are akin to/have influenced mine. So there is a creative affinity there, apart from something in the man's psyche I respond to at a very deep level...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 19, 2011, 11:58:38 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 19, 2011, 11:04:06 AM
Well, if God had intended us all to have Beans, he'd have given us runners.

This conversation set me searching afresh . . . and I've come up with a used Bean!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 19, 2011, 01:03:30 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 19, 2011, 11:58:38 AM
This conversation set me searching afresh . . . and I've come up with a used Bean!

Well even if you don't share my particularly high esteem for it, you'll be able to say: "Bean there. Done that."
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on August 19, 2011, 07:36:37 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 19, 2011, 11:49:09 AMI am a writer (Dutch), and Brian's style and structures are akin to/have influenced mine. So there is a creative affinity there, apart from something in the man's psyche I respond to at a very deep level...

Since I can personally relate to a lot of different kinds of people, I can empathize with many composer's styles, but the ones I feel the strongest affinity for are Koechlin, Bartok, Ravel, Villa-Lobos, and Vaughan Williams. I seem to be connected to their music mentally and emotionally than any other composers.

I do relate to some of Elgar's music particularly the masterful and anguished Cello Concerto, which is one of the finest works written for this instrument I think I've ever heard. Finzi's comes in close, but Elgar's really hits home to me. His two symphonies are also deeply personal for me. I think they reflect two sides of the psyche struggling to get out ahead.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 20, 2011, 01:42:38 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 19, 2011, 11:49:09 AM
I am a writer (Dutch), and Brian's style and structures are akin to/have influenced mine. So there is a creative affinity there, apart from something in the man's psyche I respond to at a very deep level...

That's interesting: the idea that an affinity with a composer of music can affect the writing of an author. I can't make the same claim about my own writing (the influences there are quite different, and non-musical, I think) but Elgar and his music have had a profound effect on the way I perceive and appreciate English landscape. I suppose there's a kind of multiple symbiosis: an innate love of the landscape of my own, interacting with not just Elgar's music, but also with the paintings of Constable, Turner, Palmer, and Paul Nash; Blake's illuminated books; and the poetry of Ted Hughes - and the whole package growing together like a musico-visual-literary tree.

For a long time I developed a kind of internal mental association between Elgar and the English 'mystic-pastoral' school of painting (Blake, Palmer, Nash etc) but felt that it was too personal and perhaps a bit too fanciful to admit to it. Then I discovered that the Elgar scholar Jerrold Northrop Moore made exactly those claims in his book Elgar: Child of Dreams (2006), which made me think maybe the notion wasn't so fanciful after all. It certainly makes a good deal of sense of those odd little comments Elgar used to make when he was conducting: 'Play this like something you might have heard down by the river'. To him, those landscape associations were inherent in the music, so I guess we the listeners are, in a sense, 'authorised' to make them.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 20, 2011, 02:53:36 AM
Brian's music is built on the dramatic tension between its constituent elements. He can jump from one idea or block to another, creating an overall momentum. As a writer of fiction this can be reproduced by having several story-lines and characters, and juggling them in the most suspenseful manner. Apart from that, his style is very concise, which finds its correlative on the literary side in syntax. I connect Brian with Hopkins (rhythmically, syntactically), Beowulf, Tolkien. And Brian himself loved Blake and Shelley, and Greek tragedy.

Back to Elgar!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 20, 2011, 03:24:14 AM
Spooky. This conversation must have been tugging at the back of mine mind. Johan, I dreamt you sent me a disc of Elgar.  I woke up in a cold sweat . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 20, 2011, 03:29:39 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 20, 2011, 03:24:14 AM
Spooky. This conversation must have been tugging at the back of mine mind. Johan, I dreamt you sent me a disc of Elgar.  I woke up in a cold sweat . . . .

You, poor man! ;-)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 20, 2011, 04:44:28 AM
I was touched by your kindness, really.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on August 20, 2011, 04:46:34 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 19, 2011, 12:52:44 AM
Has anyone else picked up one of these yet?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wWJ09FuEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Wow, I didn't know about this release. I don't follow much Hyperion label as their CDs are so damn expensive (even used ones on marketplaces).

Latest Elgar I bought was The Black Knight + Scenes from the Bavarian Highlands (LSC/LSO/Hickox) on Chandos for 4.48 euros delivered.  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 20, 2011, 05:02:11 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 20, 2011, 04:44:28 AM
I was touched by your kindness, really.

It's funny that your dream-Johan and his kindness are separate from me! Though I strive to be kind in life...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on August 20, 2011, 05:06:16 AM
Alan, just to echo Johan's words - I find your writing on Eglar extraordinarily interesting and, as always, you have a way of getting to the nub of the matter. (I've been back from holiday for nearly two weeks but just lurking here since then, as nothing has really compelled me to jump back in - till now). I have an itchy trigger finger over The Spirit of England thanks to your post (been looking through the vocal score at IMSLP and can almost feel the piece now...) and your more recent post about the Piers Lane recording has done the same. But when I searched on amazon just now I found an earlier recording by Lane with the Velilnger Qt. It also includes an apparently late chamber piece called In Moonlight which I've never heard of and which isn't on IMSLP. What's it like? And the disc in general? (it's on amazon for about 2 pounds, so I tihink I will click anyway!)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on August 20, 2011, 05:11:36 AM
Yes, I just clicked on it, and also on the version of The Spirit of England you recommended - it was only 1.51 after all!

Interesting that the Lane/Goldner recording seems to be one of a series - I clearly haven't been paying attention, as I haven't seen any of these before:

[asin]B005145X0M[/asin][asin]B001UWOIPU[/asin][asin]B000WE5G6W[/asin]

Very tempted by all of these!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Guido on August 20, 2011, 07:33:52 AM
Funny, my experience of Elgar is hardly connected to landscapes at all, certainly not English ones, though after all you've written maybe I'm experiencing it all wrong! It all seems too plush and upholstered to me, the strange mosaic effect of his orchestration and lurching musical ideas, a palimpsest of shifting memories, impressions, neurosies and conflicting sentiments. The moments of repose, the grandeur and nostalgia are certainly very English in feeling, and sometimes evocative of landscapes, but to me seem to be some kind of vision of an ideal landscape, sprawling, and magnificent and mysterious, rather than the low key, small scale beauty and solidity that I associate with the south of England where I'm from. And I always find him too odd a character to take on that mantle of "Britain's national composer", he's too quirky, one of the strangest of all the romantics. I know this all runs counter to what he said about his music, and the biography, but thought I'd share it. Anyway, enjoying your posts and am thinking about him more and more.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 20, 2011, 01:19:25 PM
Quote from: Luke on August 20, 2011, 05:06:16 AM
when I searched on amazon just now I found an earlier recording by Lane with the Velilnger Qt. It also includes an apparently late chamber piece called In Moonlight which I've never heard of and which isn't on IMSLP. What's it like? And the disc in general? (it's on amazon for about 2 pounds, so I tihink I will click anyway!)

In Moonlight is poignantly melodic and gorgeous, albeit in the not-terribly-profound Edwardian sort of way that Elgar could be very good at (think Salut d'Amour, but sadder and more serious). Very gentle, very touching at the heartstrings, lasts less than 4 minutes. The melody (strikingly melancholy and beautiful) is taken from In The South - it's one of  several rearrangements of the tune that were requested by Elgar's publisher, in this case with the viola 'singing' the tune. He also set it to some words by Shelley, I gather.

The disc in general? Well, it's superb. But then (in case you might attach too much weight to that opinion, because I may not be sufficently discriminating) I think all my discs of Elgar's chamber music are superb, and I've never heard one that I've thought was a dud. I've never directly compared one with another, but simply use the various recordings as a way of keeping fresh the listening experience. (I do listen to Elgar's three great chamber works a great deal, and for some reason which I can't define, the exercise of doing direct comparisons between recordings is something I've not wanted to do.) For what it's worth, I'm listening to the Vellinger version of the Quintet now as I write this, and am having to stop repeatedly in mid-sentence because the music is so marvellous. The Vellinger guys get a wiry, edgy tone which goes well with the vaguely sinister aspects of parts of the quintet.  I've kept no record of how many times I've listened to this quintet over the years: 50? More than that I should think. 100? I just don't know. But still there are moments when it brings tears. The slow movement (the Vellinger folk are playing it now) is almost unbearably poignant, full of loss, full of aching for things that might-have-been, or that are just out of reach.

You can't go wrong with your purchase of this older disc, Luke, truly. And certainly not at the price you paid.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 20, 2011, 01:46:20 PM
I have come to love and admire In the South very much. What , to you, is/are the best performance(s), Alan?


--Johan
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 20, 2011, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: Guido on August 20, 2011, 07:33:52 AM
Funny, my experience of Elgar is hardly connected to landscapes at all, certainly not English ones, though after all you've written maybe I'm experiencing it all wrong! It all seems too plush and upholstered to me, the strange mosaic effect of his orchestration and lurching musical ideas, a palimpsest of shifting memories, impressions, neurosies and conflicting sentiments. The moments of repose, the grandeur and nostalgia are certainly very English in feeling, and sometimes evocative of landscapes, but to me seem to be some kind of vision of an ideal landscape, sprawling, and magnificent and mysterious, rather than the low key, small scale beauty and solidity that I associate with the south of England where I'm from. And I always find him too odd a character to take on that mantle of "Britain's national composer", he's too quirky, one of the strangest of all the romantics. I know this all runs counter to what he said about his music, and the biography, but thought I'd share it. Anyway, enjoying your posts and am thinking about him more and more.

Really interesting post, and it requires more than the short answer that's all I have time for right now. But when you contrast the 'ideal landscape, sprawling, and magnificent and mysterious", and compare it with "the low key, small scale beauty and solidity that I associate with the south of England", my immediate response is not to point to one or the other, but to say, "Yes. All of those are in Elgar."

Off the top of my head, I'd say the small scale beauty of England can be found in things like the Serenade for Strings; there are evocations of inimate English woodland in parts of Caractacus, and (far more profoundly) in the Piano Quintet; the wilder aspects of English moorland could be linked with Introduction and Allegro for Strings; and the great over-arching noble ideal vision flashes out again and again in the 1st Symphony. In that way he has something like the range of Turner, who also produced grand sweeping visions in those big oil paintings that presented English landscape in Claudean style on the one hand, yet painted delicate and intimate aspects of country life and landscapes in many of his watercolours. I don't want to get caught up in a general comparison of Elgar with Turner - there are vast and important differences in outlook. But in this specific issue of range in association with landscape, the comparison is worth thinking about.

The difficulty, of course, is that in this business of association between musical and extra-musical ideas, there are no guarantees that the links will be made in the same way by different folks (just as an abstract painting can produce feelings of landscape for one person, say, and still-life for another). Even so, Elgar clearly expected his orchestra to understand him when he asked them to play it like 'something they'd heard down by the river'. And then there's that famous quote about 'the trees are singing my music; or am I singing theirs?' His love of aeolian harps had something to do with that, too, perhaps. I think your comment about the quirkiness is bang on, by the way; in many ways Elgar the Neurotic Outsider was the least plausible character to be thought of as Great National Composer. But in all the other important ways - the man who loved being outdoors in the countryside; who cycled fifty miles a day through it, regularly, composing as he rode; who found it helpful to work in a study with a wide view of English landscape; who responded to the twin appeal of Tintagel through its wild landscape and chivalric associations - these fit him for the role in its deepest sense  like no other, I'd argue.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 20, 2011, 02:00:20 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 20, 2011, 01:46:20 PM
I have come to love and admire In the South very much. What , to you, is/are the best performance(s), Alan?

Gosh, now you've got me (it's not a work I listen to all that much). I've never considered the question!

I'll do some listening and get back to you (probably with some uselessly bland comment, mind you).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 20, 2011, 02:07:11 PM
To help (!) you, I know 4 performances: Weldon, Barbirolli, Barenboim and Sinopoli. Not much to choose between Barbirolli and Sinopoli, though I prefer Glorious John...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on August 21, 2011, 09:25:14 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 20, 2011, 01:46:20 PM
I have come to love and admire In the South very much. What , to you, is/are the best performance(s)?


--Johan

Scottish National Orchestra / Gibson on Chandos
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 21, 2011, 10:13:57 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 21, 2011, 09:25:14 AM
Scottish National Orchestra / Gibson on Chandos


Noted.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 21, 2011, 12:01:32 PM
Well I've made a little progress - insofar as I've made myself consciously aware of which versions I have!

Elgar/LSO 1930
Boult/LPO 1972
Slatkin/LPO 1989
Andrew Davis/BBCSO 1992
Slatkin/BBCSO 2002 (Prom)

My memory tells me that Andrew Davis does a fine job - but In The South hasn't been, as I said, a particular favourite of mine; and these versions are in my library because they happened to accompany other pieces, rather than being deliberately sought out for their own sake. I'll try to listen to them all and report back. Listening to Elgar's 1930 version now, in fact - oh, gorgeous stuff in the slow section, and tremendously rousing finale! But I'm too soppy to be objective when it comes to his own recordings: I can never quite stop thinking "My God, this is ELGAR conducting!", and somehow that always displaces any objective critical assessment of what's going on. And if I'm honest, I'm very happy for that to be the case, and would feel a real sense of loss if the situation ever changed. Suffice it to say that if this 1930 recording of ITS were all I had, I'd be well content, despite the limitations of recording quality.

More to come.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 21, 2011, 12:44:24 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 21, 2011, 12:01:32 PM
My memory tells me that Andrew Davis does a fine job

Hmm. So much for my memory. Coming straight after Elgar himself, Sir Andrew sounds a bit pedestrian to these ears. This may be partly due to the substantial change of pace (Elgar is 20m15s and Davis 21m50s) - that might explain the feeling of a loss of urgency, and the warm and lush orchestral sound quality may also have something to do with it. But even the lovely slow section with the beautiful tune sounds more like music to snooze by with Davis at the helm, compared to Elgar's evocation of poignant longing which is far from somnolent.

Next up comes Boult, and instantly this grabs my attention. Much fiercer in attack than Davis, and it comes as no surprise to see that he turns in an even faster performance than Elgar, at 19m 48s. This is really fine stuff here, by Boult - the music never loses its momentum, is urgent when urgency is required, and the slow section is truly haunting. The transition from there to the opening of the finale is magnificent, no doubt about it, and he positively sparkles his way through the last few minutes as the music surges this way and that. This is going to be hard to beat - and I'm not altogether surprised, because generally speaking (if one can think in terms of some sort of average in this context without being silly) Boult is probably overall my favourite interpreter of Elgar.

So far then, we have something like this:
Boult (1972) *****
Elgar (1930) ****
Davis (1992) **
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 21, 2011, 12:44:49 PM
Seems to me I must have at least two versions of In the South . . . the Andrew Davis you list there, Alan, and maybe Jeffrey Tate? . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 21, 2011, 12:52:00 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 21, 2011, 12:44:49 PM
Seems to me I must have at least two versions of In the South . . . the Andrew Davis you list there, Alan, and maybe Jeffrey Tate? . . .

Well I hope the Tate is a bit more lively than the Davis. How does his timing compare, Karl?

This is quite a voyage of discovery for me - I'm listening to Slatkin (1989) right now; I expected to find it worthy but unexceptional and so far that seems about right.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Guido on August 21, 2011, 01:00:15 PM
Doesn't that describe everything Slatkin has ever done?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 21, 2011, 01:06:32 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 21, 2011, 12:44:24 PM
Hmm. So much for my memory. Coming straight after Elgar himself, Sir Andrew sounds a bit pedestrian to these ears. This may be partly due to the substantial change of pace (Elgar is 20m15s and Davis 21m50s) - that might explain the feeling of a loss of urgency, and the warm and lush orchestral sound quality may also have something to do with it. But even the lovely slow section with the beautiful tune sounds more like music to snooze by with Davis at the helm, compared to Elgar's evocation of poignant longing which is far from somnolent.

Next up comes Boult, and instantly this grabs my attention. Much fiercer in attack than Davis, and it comes as no surprise to see that he turns in an even faster performance than Elgar, at 19m 48s. This is really fine stuff here, by Boult - the music never loses its momentum, is urgent when urgency is required, and the slow section is truly haunting. The transition from there to the opening of the finale is magnificent, no doubt about it, and he positively sparkles his way through the last few minutes as the music surges this way and that. This is going to be hard to beat - and I'm not altogether surprised, because generally speaking (if one can think in terms of some sort of average in this context without being silly) Boult is probably overall my favourite interpreter of Elgar.

So far then, we have something like this:
Boult (1972) *****
Elgar (1930) ****
Davis (1992) **
I have a set with that Boult performance and find it holds my attention well. He does sparkle - an apt description! So I would confirm your impression.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 21, 2011, 01:51:06 PM
Quote from: Guido on August 21, 2011, 01:00:15 PM
Doesn't that describe everything Slatkin has ever done?

Can't say - I haven't heard everything that Slatkin has ever done. I just have his box of Elgar recordings. Meanwhile, continuing my star ratings:

Slatkin (1989) ***
One could live with this and be content, provided one had never heard Boult (1972).

Just the live (Proms, 2002) Slatkin to go. Another time.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on August 21, 2011, 02:11:01 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 20, 2011, 01:19:25 PM
But then (in case you might attach too much weight to that opinion, because I may not be sufficently discriminating) I think all my discs of Elgar's chamber music are superb, and I've never heard one that I've thought was a dud. I've never directly compared one with another, but simply use the various recordings as a way of keeping fresh the listening experience. (I do listen to Elgar's three great chamber works a great deal, and for some reason which I can't define, the exercise of doing direct comparisons between recordings is something I've not wanted to do.) For what it's worth, I'm listening to the Vellinger version of the Quintet now as I write this, and am having to stop repeatedly in mid-sentence because the music is so marvellous. The Vellinger guys get a wiry, edgy tone which goes well with the vaguely sinister aspects of parts of the quintet.  I've kept no record of how many times I've listened to this quintet over the years: 50? More than that I should think. 100? I just don't know. But still there are moments when it brings tears. The slow movement (the Vellinger folk are playing it now) is almost unbearably poignant, full of loss, full of aching for things that might-have-been, or that are just out of reach.

Hate to skip back past all the In The South posts, but I have to say, Elgarian, it's a pleasure to read such thoughtful posts from someone who obviously both knows and loves his subject.  I would always tell people how much I loved Elgar and encourage them to listen to his music, but I'm a mere baby experience-wise when it comes to you.  Keep it coming.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on August 21, 2011, 04:53:32 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 19, 2011, 11:58:38 AM
This conversation set me searching afresh . . . and I've come up with a used Bean!

Jack and the Bean's-Talk


In the South: I have Solti, Slatkin, A Davis, and Barbirolli, who is definitely the leader, having the most conviction and enthusiasm, if not the best sound of the lot.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 22, 2011, 04:13:26 AM
Many thanks for all the In the South information coming out (and in)!


It's clear I must listen to Gibson, Elgar and Boult and see how they compare with Barbirolli and Sinopoli.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on August 23, 2011, 09:56:17 AM
Being a bit obsessive/compulsive, I decided to try a completist's approach to the music of Elgar and Nielsen.

Nielsen proved to be easier, due to the existence of the 'Young Nielsen' disc that collects a lot of his pre-opus number material.

But, Elgar's earliest works are mostly scattered over many discs, with the exception of the 'Complete Music for Wind Quintet', which was a nice find.

For the rest of the early material, I decided to go the track-download route.  Although my first disc is only thirty-eight minutes long, it still ended up running about $12, so I decided to keep it at that for now.

The tracks on this disc are:

1.  The Language of Flowers (song)
2.  Chantant (piano)
3.  The Self-Banished (song)
4.  Reminiscences (violin & piano)
5.  Romance, Op 1 (violin & piano)
6.  Fugue in d minor (violin & piano)
7.  Douce Pensee, "Rosemary" (cello?)
8.  Idyll, Op 4 #1 (violin & piano)
9.  Pastourelle, Op 4 #2 (violin & piano)
10.Virelai, Op. 4 #3 (violin & piano)
11.Sevillana, Op. 7 (orchestra)
12.Griffenesque (piano)

I'm anxious to listen to this later on.  Seems like it might be a nice mix.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 23, 2011, 09:57:38 AM
I shouldn't be much interested in Elgar's juvenilia, but of course, YMMV : )
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on August 23, 2011, 11:19:28 AM
Thanks to the wonder of the InTeRweB, earlier today I heard the Bean/Groves recording of the sonata & concerto that Alan likes so much.  No complaints, and I thought the sonata the better of the two!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 23, 2011, 12:07:34 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 23, 2011, 11:19:28 AM
Thanks to the wonder of the InTeRweB, earlier today I heard the Bean/Groves recording of the sonata & concerto that Alan likes so much.  No complaints, and I thought the sonata the better of the two!

I found the Concerto to be everything Elgarian claimed. Shot right up my list of favorites. Desert island material? Yeah...but for me it still has stiff competition in Chung/Solti...and not only musical competition. Alone on a desert island, man does not live by music alone. Fantasy is important, and Chung's a hell of a lot cuter than Bean  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 23, 2011, 12:26:33 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 23, 2011, 11:19:28 AM
Thanks to the wonder of the InTeRweB, earlier today I heard the Bean/Groves recording of the sonata & concerto that Alan likes so much.  No complaints, and I thought the sonata the better of the two!

Do you mean you think the sonata is a better work than the concerto, Dave? Or that Bean plays the sonata better than he does the concerto? I presume the latter (since the two works aren't really comparable)? I'd be hard-pressed to choose between two such levels of excellence, myself, though it's a particularly Bean-like excellence, and not for everyone, I should think.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 23, 2011, 12:54:47 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 23, 2011, 12:07:34 PM
I found the Concerto to be everything Elgarian claimed. Shot right up my list of favorites. Desert island material? Yeah...but for me it still has stiff competition in Chung/Solti...and not only musical competition. Alone on a desert island, man does not live by music alone. Fantasy is important, and Chung's a hell of a lot cuter than Bean  :D

Yeah - but actually Sarge, you've hit on something important here. The violin concerto, more than any other work, expresses Elgar's deep feeling for the feminine, don't you think? There's that important interplay between the public and the private face of the composer, yes; but within that there's Elgar's peculiarly Elgarian relationship with the feminine. Specifically, at the time he wrote it, there was a particular person to attach this to - Alice Stuart-Wortley, his 'Windflower'; but underlying that extraordinary friendship was something more universal: a kind of Kore/Proserpine/Demeter - maiden/lover/mother - symbolism (though that mythic shorthand isn't a perfect fit), and it haunts the violin concerto more than anywhere else. I think the interplay between the two key Windflower themes is an expression of this.

Now one might argue (maybe fancifully, but maybe not), that only a female soloist might be able to express this properly. Or at least, if not that, she may tend to produce a particularly feminine 'take' on the concerto that might be illuminating. I bought the Chung recording for precisely that reason, and if it's not quite my favourite, that doesn't mean I don't think it's very lovely. I bought Tasmin Little's recent recording for the same reason too. Whether this goes any further than the mere psychology of 'knowing that the fiddler is female', I honestly couldn't say. I don't even really care that much - Elgar surely fantasised in this kind of way, so why shouldn't we?

For the same reason, this is one of my most-played collections:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nZbiYLLBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Having won the Britten International Violin competition, this Dutch fiddler chose to record a collection of Elgar pieces. Elgar would have adored her for doing such a thing; and would have adored her anyway I suspect. And she makes a good shot at them too. And the whole idea of that produces a very pleasant aura that goes a long way towards smoothing out any little roughnesses or weaknesses in the actual performances.

I'd be the first to admit that I make loads of extra-musical associations with Elgar's music; and they all influence how I listen and what I hear. And I don't feel in any way that I oughtn't to do that, because I think he experienced the music himself under the influence of his own private versions of these associations or neuroses.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 23, 2011, 01:58:44 PM
Quote from: Vesteralen on August 21, 2011, 02:11:01 PM
Hate to skip back past all the In The South posts, but I have to say, Elgarian, it's a pleasure to read such thoughtful posts from someone who obviously both knows and loves his subject.  I would always tell people how much I loved Elgar and encourage them to listen to his music, but I'm a mere baby experience-wise when it comes to you.  Keep it coming.

What a generous thing to say. Thank you. But I should say two things in reply:
1. It would hard to stop me from 'keeping it coming'!
2. I confess to loving my subject, but I'd advise any reader of my posts to be sceptical of my knowledge. My understanding of the music is very limited, and my response (admittedly based on reasonably wide reading about the man, and exploring his favourite Malvern countryside) is always very coloured by emotion/neurosis/biographical interest etc. So what spills out here is a very personal view of Elgar that wouldn't suit everyone, and I'm very conscious of its limitations.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 24, 2011, 12:01:25 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 23, 2011, 12:07:34 PM
Alone on a desert island, man does not live by music alone. Fantasy is important, and Chung's a hell of a lot cuter than Bean  :D

While discussing this theme of female violinists, I should most certainly have mentioned this fabulous recording of the violin sonata by Lydia Mordkovitch:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61POC7g%2BLLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I could've sworn that I'd written something about this already; but if so I can't find it, and if not, then I'm seriously lacking in my duty to the community. Suffice for now to say that for me, she utterly nails the violin sonata once and for all. This is sheer goosebump juice.

Footnote: just looked it up in an old Penguin Guide: they mark it as a key recording, award it their special rosette, and comment: "Lydia Mordkovitch here transforms the elusive Elgar violin sonata. In rapt and concentrated playing she gives it new mystery, with the subtlest pointing and shading down to the whispered pianissimos." They don't always get it right, those Penguin Guiders, but here they do. Magic.

Extra footnote: Aha! I was right! I had written about this recording already, and here it is (#791 in this very thread). I'm quoting the whole of it, because all the background brings added meaning (for me) to Mordkovitch's interpretation of the piece:

Elgar's Violin Sonata

My approach, as ever with Elgar, is to start with the biography because so often the life informs the work to a considerable degree.

Anyone who compares Elgar's music pre-1914, and post-1914, is going to notice an enormous difference. The War knocked the stuffing out of him, and inflicted serious damage on his dreams of nobility, brotherhood, and the chivalric ideal. His music written specifically for the War culminates in 1917 with the completion of one of his greatest and most (incomprehensibly) neglected works: The Spirit of England - effectively Elgar's Requiem for those who died in the war.

Afterwards he sought refuge in a Sussex cottage, 'Brinkwells', in the heart of woodland, accessible only with difficulty, and offering quite a spartan existence. Something about the surrounding woodland inspired him to embark on his series of chamber works: the violin sonata, the piano quintet, the string quartet (and also of course the non-chamber cello concerto). Quite a lot of biographical material relates to the violin sonata. Alice Elgar recorded in her diary that Elgar was beginning to write a very different kind of music: 'wood magic', she called it. We know that quite apart from his love of the woodland, he was haunted by a particular group of rather sinister trees that are said to have influenced the music he was writing. So one thing we might expect from this music is a new kind of Elgarian pastoralism

But wait. In August 1918, Alice Stuart Wortley (the Windflower) came to visit the cottage. After she left he started work on the Sonata. The opening of the first movement is vigorous and (one might say) masculine in character - but then comes an entirely typical Elgarian moment at about 1 minute in, with the introduction of a lovely 'feminine' second theme. I don't want to get absurdly literalist, but to my ears that theme has 'Windflower' written all over it, as vividly as if he'd carved it into the barks of the trees in the wood.

He'd just begun work on the 2nd (slow) movement when he heard that the Windflower had had an accident and broken her leg, and I don't think it's too fanciful to suppose that the change in tone of the second movement that occurs at about 2m30s, where the 'wood magic' gives way to what is surely one of his loveliest, most heart-aching melodies, may be related to that, and to his feelings for the Windflower and all that she represented, remembered here in his mysterious woodland.

Then Billy Reed came to stay, bringing his violin. He recalls:
'the Violin Sonata was well advanced. All the first movement was written, half the second - he finished this ... while I was there - and the opening section of the Finale. We used to play up to the blank page and then he would say, 'And then what?' - and we would go out to explore the wood or fish in the River Arun.'

The importance of that lovely tune from the second movement is emphasised by the fact that the very same theme reappears in the last two minutes of the final movement, bringing a kind of solace (or is it just a diffferent kind of loss and heartbreak?) to the restless, fretful, and sometimes anguished searching of the previous 6 minutes.

So in the background to the sonata we have the Windflower; we have woodland, and Elgar's love of it; we have a group of haunted trees; and we have all these set against a sense of loss and profound sadness resulting from the horrors of the war. I hope it's obvious that I'm not saying the violin sonata was composed according to some sort of programme; not that; rather, that when I listen to it, and find myself feeling that familiar Elgarian sense of longing for something unreachable and feminine, or imagining light dappling through leaves and branches, or feeling strangely haunted by a sense of almost intolerable loss - then none of these things is very surprising.

If I could only have one recording of the violin sonata, then I'd ask for mercy and plead for two. I'd want Hugh Bean's, with David Parkhouse, but that's not a helpful recommendation because all the copies in the world have recently been bought up by GMG members wanting to get his recording of the violin concerto. But no matter. If I could really and truly only have one, then it would be Lydia Mordkovitch with Julian Milford (see picture above). It takes your heart and squeezes it dry, and then wrings it again. The good news is that unlike the Bean, this is still obtainable, here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Sospiri-Music-Violin-Piano/dp/B000005Z6Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273783814&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Sospiri-Music-Violin-Piano/dp/B000005Z6Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273783814&sr=1-1)


Additional extra footnote: Blimey. I just discovered that I'd already reviewed my whole collection of recordings of the violin sonata. I have no recollection of ever doing that! Here it is, #793 in this thread:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg413086.html#msg413086 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg413086.html#msg413086)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 24, 2011, 03:32:24 AM
Bean landed yesterday. Will listen this morning. Or afternoon, as may be.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 24, 2011, 05:37:06 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 24, 2011, 03:32:24 AM
Bean landed yesterday. Will listen this morning. Or afternoon, as may be.

Listening right now (the Op.82). Man, is this good!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on August 24, 2011, 05:37:26 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 23, 2011, 12:26:33 PM
Do you mean you think the sonata is a better work than the concerto, Dave? Or that Bean plays the sonata better than he does the concerto? I presume the latter (since the two works aren't really comparable)? I'd be hard-pressed to choose between two such levels of excellence, myself, though it's a particularly Bean-like excellence, and not for everyone, I should think.
I spoke imprecisely.  I enjoyed hearing the sonata more.  Unfamiliarity with a work that I liked quite a bit doubtless contributed to my pleasure.  But then I dreamed last night that I was living in Berkeley 30 years ago, so everything may be off-kilter today!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 24, 2011, 05:39:07 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 24, 2011, 05:37:06 AM
Listening right now (the Op.82). Man, is this good!

They recorded this on New Year's Day, 1971 . . . do I fancy I can hear that in the espressivo? . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on August 24, 2011, 05:40:09 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 24, 2011, 05:37:06 AM
Listening right now (the Op.82). Man, is this good!
Yes, my response as well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 24, 2011, 05:47:14 AM
Good morning, Dave!

Maybe I've been lucky: all three performances/recordings I've heard of the Sonata have been intensely engaging . . . maybe it's just so seldom prepared a work, that those who do, really mean it.  I've probably mentioned before that my introduction to the piece was, I turned pages for Nigel Kennedy's accompanist when he played a recital in the University of Virginia's Old Cabell Hall.  I'm a little (only a little) annoyed with myself that I've not yet gotten to know the Concerto as well as I know the Sonata . . . but perhaps it's only that the Sonata makes friends more readily.


Really delighted that I followed up on Alan's suggestion, and fetched Mr Bean in . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on August 24, 2011, 05:49:47 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 23, 2011, 09:57:38 AM
I shouldn't be much interested in Elgar's juvenilia, but of course, YMMV : )

Well, that may be true for some, but after listening through it twice, I have to say I'm loving this CD.  Through most of it, it's true, I probably hear more of Schubert, Schumann, Dvorak, and even, dare I say it, Stephen Foster, than I hear much that is typically Elgar.  But, it's still quite beautiful music.  And, it shows that the guy had a prodigious talent for melody.  If it's a bit derivative, at least it isn't second-rate derivative.

Here and there, though, I do think I hear snatches of the familiar Elgar - most notably in the Op. 4 (the Simone Lamsma recording, BTW, that Elgarian refers to above) and the Op 7 (in a kind of muddy recording with Marriner and TAOSMITF - well, maybe it's not really that muddy, but coming right after the Lamsma, it seems that way).

As a side note, I really like the 38 minute run-time of this disc I created.  Odd as it may sound, I find most CDs to be too long (though I'd be the last one to ask to pay more for less under normal circumstances).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 24, 2011, 05:51:25 AM
Quote from: Vesteralen on August 24, 2011, 05:49:47 AM
Well, that may be true for some, but after listening through it twice, I have to say I'm loving this CD.

That's cool . . . there are composers in whose uncharacteristic earlier work I take keen interest, an interest which would puzzle many another listener (even a thorough, and even a very musical, listener).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on August 24, 2011, 05:54:05 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 24, 2011, 05:47:14 AM
Really delighted that I followed up on Alan's suggestion, and fetched Mr Bean in . . . .
8)
And good morning to you, too, sir!

I'm delighted that I followed up PhysicsDave's suggestion to try mog.  Lots to like there for only $5/mo, not least of which is nearly immediate hearing of almost any work that catches my fancy.  Since the Bean recording is OOP and relatively rare, I might cast about there for another of the sonata to my taste.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 24, 2011, 06:03:29 AM
The other recording I've got is sort of historical interest, Yehudi & Hephzibah Menuhin (a recording whereof, yikes, an Amazon third-partier is hawking a new copy for . . . wait for it . . . $222.90)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on August 24, 2011, 06:05:17 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 24, 2011, 06:03:29 AM
The other recording I've got is sort of historical interest, Yehudi & Hephzibah Menuhin (a recording whereof, yikes, an Amazon third-partier is hawking a new copy for . . . wait for it . . . $222.90)
Looks as if the "2" on his keyboard is sticking.  :o
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 24, 2011, 06:09:12 AM
Aye. Shouldn't call the disc anywhere near that essential . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on August 24, 2011, 06:34:13 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 24, 2011, 06:03:29 AM
The other recording I've got is sort of historical interest, Yehudi & Hephzibah Menuhin (a recording whereof, yikes, an Amazon third-partier is hawking a new copy for . . . wait for it . . . $222.90)

No doubt $222.90 is actually a markdown from $222.99
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 24, 2011, 06:39:54 AM
I'm really excited, just ordered....

[asin]B000000AC6[/asin]


...for ultra cheap, as in I basically only paid amazon.com's required MP shipping cost. One of the few Elgar pieces I'm not so familiar with, how does this performance rank among others? I bought this one because the price was right, but I don't see how it could be too bad.

Also, I'm in the market for another recording of Falstaff, I have the Lloyd-Jones/ENP on Naxos and would like to explore this piece further. Suggestions?

Thanks, friends.  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 24, 2011, 06:41:31 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 24, 2011, 06:39:54 AM
Also, I'm in the market for another recording of Falstaff, I have the Lloyd-Jones/ENP on Naxos and would like to explore this piece further. Suggestions?

Mark Elder & the Hallé!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 24, 2011, 06:45:05 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 24, 2011, 06:41:31 AM
Mark Elder & the Hallé!

Found, and wish-listed. Great roundup of pieces on that disc too.

Thank you, sir!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 24, 2011, 06:47:18 AM
A pleasure!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 24, 2011, 07:42:09 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 23, 2011, 11:19:28 AM
Thanks to the wonder of the InTeRweB, earlier today I heard the Bean/Groves recording of the sonata & concerto that Alan likes so much.  No complaints, and I thought the sonata the better of the two!


About to take the plunge myself...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on August 24, 2011, 08:29:44 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 24, 2011, 12:01:25 AM
While discussing this theme of female violinists, I should most certainly have mentioned this fabulous recording of the violin sonata by Lydia Mordkovitch:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61POC7g%2BLLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


I ordered this one today.  I loved your review and description, and in addition to everything else, it also has quite a few of Elgar's early works that I would probably be getting to soon anyway.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 24, 2011, 08:34:49 AM
Listening to the Violin Sonata (Bean/Parkhouse) already for the second time. I had to get my bearings at first - the music starts off so tempestuously, 'in the midst of things', a real explosion. With the Romance, though, I was home. Wonderful and quite heart-rending music. And the last movement really develops the first-movement atmosphere (perhaps even themes, but I can't yet tell).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 24, 2011, 08:43:11 AM
Quote from: Vesteralen on August 24, 2011, 08:29:44 AM
I ordered this one today. 

So did I. Whenever Elgarian posts, my bank balance takes a hit  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 24, 2011, 08:53:36 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 24, 2011, 08:43:11 AM
So did I. Whenever Elgarian posts, my bank balance takes a hit  ;D

Sarge

Oh, that's a feeling I know . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 24, 2011, 12:37:30 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 24, 2011, 05:47:14 AM
Really delighted that I followed up on Alan's suggestion, and fetched Mr Bean in . . . .

That's a relief! Sometimes the weight of responsibility when making these recommendations is daunting, however wholeheartedly felt.

Still, daunting though it is to say it, and even though we're hyper-Beaning right now: you're going to have to listen to Lydia's version sooner or later.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on August 24, 2011, 07:07:01 PM
Windflower (Anemone nemorosa) -
"All parts of the plant contain protoanemonin, which can cause severe skin and gastrointestinal irritation, burning mouth sensation, burning throat sensation, mouth ulcers, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, bitter taste in mouth, blood in vomit."
8)


I haven't been able to find any review or reference for this Australian release. Does anyone know these recordings?:

(http://www.buywell.com/images/mid/4764326.jpg) (http://www.buywell.com/cgi-bin/buywellic2/afly.html?mv_arg=15604)

Variations on an Original Theme 'Enigma', Op. 36
Nursery Suite


Sydney Symphony Orchestra
Myer Fredman conductor

Dream Children, Op. 43
Serenade in E minor for strings, Op. 20


Queensland Symphony Orchestra
Bernard Heinze conductor
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 25, 2011, 12:18:27 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 24, 2011, 07:07:01 PM
"can cause severe skin and gastrointestinal irritation, burning mouth sensation, burning throat sensation, mouth ulcers, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, bitter taste in mouth, blood in vomit."
*

Yes, reports of these extreme side effects on listening to Elgar's music have indeed been reported from time to time, though usually (on further enquiry) the causes have been found to arise from previously existing psychological issues in the listener.


*There's a drive, I believe, to have those symptoms included in the small print on every Elgar CD, though the Elgar Society is staunchly resistive.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 25, 2011, 12:50:10 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 24, 2011, 05:47:14 AM
perhaps it's only that the Sonata makes friends more readily.
Meant to comment on this earlier. Yes, I think it does. I knew I was hooked on the sonata from the second or third hearing, and it went straight into my personal Elgar Top Ten and has stayed there ever since. But I found the concerto remained remote somehow for many, many years, and only gradually moved its way up the chart to end up in the Top Three.

[In case anyone was wondering:
1. The Spirit of England.
2. Violin Concerto
3. 1st Symphony]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 25, 2011, 04:48:27 AM
Want to thank you again (joining the chorus, really) for your posts and recording recs, Alan. Part (only part) of the value in your discussion, is how it is tempered by your awareness of speaking from one chap's viewpoint (and yours is very engaging, thank you).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on August 25, 2011, 06:27:47 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 25, 2011, 04:48:27 AM
Want to thank you again (joining the chorus, really) for your posts and recording recs, Alan. Part (only part) of the value in your discussion, is how it is tempered by your awareness of speaking from one chap's viewpoint (and yours is very engaging, thank you).
Seconded!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 25, 2011, 06:44:32 AM
From this one chap's viewpoint (it's all any of us have, I guess) - thanks, both. But of course the truth is that I've taken a lot more from here than I've given back. Thanks for reading my stuff.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 25, 2011, 06:52:02 AM
Still chuckling at (while owning the truth of) Sarge's post:

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 24, 2011, 08:43:11 AM
Whenever Elgarian posts, my bank balance takes a hit  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 01:06:46 AM
More thanks to add to the pile building up for Alan - I've already thanked him for his eloquent, penetrating posts which pushed me in the direction of The Spirit of England. It arrived yesterday, along with the Lane/Vellinger disc, but I haven't listened to the latter yet, for the good reason that within a single listen The Spirit of England was firmly lodged in my mind, and I wanted it again and again. Surely it is the title that is off-putting for some, but (I think I am reading it correctly) Alan is right about this piece - it is no patriotic tub-thumper, obviously, but more than that, it is more concerned with general feelings of nobility and honour amid grief than it is with anything specifically national. I thought it ironic, for a moment, that the choir and orchestra were Scotish... but that's only an irony because of a titular issue, and I felt that Elgar and Binyon surely included Scots as Englishmen here (how they must love that!  ;D ). But then, listening, I realised that really the piece is bigger than that, too - this 'England' (patronising as it may seem to others) is really just standing for something bigger, a spirit that can exist anywhere that there is pride and stoicism and controled, quiet determination and whatnot (even if that is not what Elgar/Binyon meant, it is how it struck me). And those ideas are very powerful when put in compelling terms such as those of Elgar's, even to someone who wouldn't usually give that kind of thing a second thought.

And then, as I listened, towards the last bars of the first section, another thought struck me - perhaps these Scots can sing with such gusto because they have that little distance that the title enforces...because for me, at this point, and even as an entirely unpatriotic loony lefty Brit who happens to be English, this piece began to bring tears to my eyes, against my will, really. I was trying to talk to my daughter about it, about the Elgar of the Coronation Ode (also on the disc - as a boy I played that piece under David Wilcocks in the LSSO, so it's special to me in a different way) and the later Elgar of The Spirit of England, about the Edwardian era and the death blow that was WWI...but how could I when my voice was quavering with some of Elgar's pull-no-punches word-setting ([Spirit [upwards-surging line] of Eng [top B] land....ardent-eyed [passionate unison]). Glorious stuff. Thank you, Alan!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 26, 2011, 05:12:40 AM
I've been tracking (though not heatedly) the ongoing conversation viz. The Spirit of England . . . in fact not close enough to remember if there is a preferred recording. No matter, I found dirt-cheap copies of two of them . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 26, 2011, 05:20:57 AM
Hrm, is the Hickox the one we want?  Found a fairly inexpensive copy of that one, too, at Newbury Comics on line . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 26, 2011, 05:21:15 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 26, 2011, 05:12:40 AM
I've been tracking (though not heatedly) the ongoing conversation viz. The Spirit of England . . . in fact not close enough to remember if there is a preferred recording. No matter, I found dirt-cheap copies of two of them . . . .
I think the Gibson. I have enjoyed the one on Dutton though, and no less for the other interesting pieces on the disc.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 26, 2011, 05:23:06 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 26, 2011, 05:21:15 AM
I think the Gibson. I have enjoyed the one on Dutton though, and no less for the other interesting pieces on the disc.

Thanks!  Those are the two for which I first pulled the trigger. Curious to say, I have a feeling this is an Elgar score I shan't mind having three recordings of . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 26, 2011, 05:23:42 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 26, 2011, 05:12:40 AM
I've been tracking (though not heatedly) the ongoing conversation viz. The Spirit of England . . . in fact not close enough to remember if there is a preferred recording.

Gibson, SNO, Chandos
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 26, 2011, 05:28:43 AM
And thank you, Sarge!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 26, 2011, 05:39:27 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 26, 2011, 05:12:40 AM
I've been tracking (though not heatedly) the ongoing conversation viz. The Spirit of England . . . in fact not close enough to remember if there is a preferred recording. No matter, I found dirt-cheap copies of two of them . . . .

I'm in a rush, and no time to chat at length (though I want to, and will later), but briefly:  Karl, it's the Gibson SNO with Teresa Cahill that you want. By all means have them all, but this is THE ONE. You only need to hear Teresa Cahill's first entry 'Spirit of England go before us', and listen to the way she sings the word 'England'. Felicity Lott, in her version, sings it like it's just a word. Cahill sings it knowing it to be Albion.

Also, Mike sings on this recording!

Lots more to say later - and maybe some extra info in a PM.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 26, 2011, 05:44:08 AM
Appreciate your kind dashing off a word, Alan!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 06:59:50 AM
According to Alan, the top rec is the Gibson w various Scots. At least I hope it is, as that's the one I got. Sounds wonderful to me, anyway.

Ha, missed a whole page of discussion which makes this post redundant!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 07:02:07 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 26, 2011, 05:39:27 AM
I'm in a rush, and no time to chat at length (though I want to, and will later), but briefly:  Karl, it's the Gibson SNO with Teresa Cahill that you want. By all means have them all, but this is THE ONE. You only need to hear Teresa Cahill's first entry 'Spirit of England go before us', and listen to the way she sings the word 'England'. Felicity Lott, in her version, sings it like it's just a word. Cahill sings it knowing it to be Albion.

Yes, that really sent shivers through me, as I tried to parse in my post!

Quote from: Elgarian on August 26, 2011, 05:39:27 AM
Also, Mike sings on this recording!

Various Scots, as I said....  >:D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 26, 2011, 10:54:28 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 26, 2011, 01:06:46 AM
... within a single listen The Spirit of England was firmly lodged in my mind, and I wanted it again and again. Surely it is the title that is off-putting for some, but (I think I am reading it correctly) Alan is right about this piece - it is no patriotic tub-thumper, obviously, but more than that, it is more concerned with general feelings of nobility and honour amid grief than it is with anything specifically national. I thought it ironic, for a moment, that the choir and orchestra were Scotish... but that's only an irony because of a titular issue, and I felt that Elgar and Binyon surely included Scots as Englishmen here (how they must love that!  ;D ). But then, listening, I realised that really the piece is bigger than that, too - this 'England' (patronising as it may seem to others) is really just standing for something bigger, a spirit that can exist anywhere that there is pride and stoicism and controled, quiet determination and whatnot (even if that is not what Elgar/Binyon meant, it is how it struck me). And those ideas are very powerful when put in compelling terms such as those of Elgar's, even to someone who wouldn't usually give that kind of thing a second thought.

And then, as I listened, towards the last bars of the first section, another thought struck me - perhaps these Scots can sing with such gusto because they have that little distance that the title enforces...because for me, at this point, and even as an entirely unpatriotic loony lefty Brit who happens to be English, this piece began to bring tears to my eyes, against my will, really. I was trying to talk to my daughter about it, about the Elgar of the Coronation Ode (also on the disc - as a boy I played that piece under David Wilcocks in the LSSO, so it's special to me in a different way) and the later Elgar of The Spirit of England, about the Edwardian era and the death blow that was WWI...but how could I when my voice was quavering with some of Elgar's pull-no-punches word-setting ([Spirit [upwards-surging line] of Eng [top B] land....ardent-eyed [passionate unison]). Glorious stuff. Thank you, Alan!

How fabulous to read this post. My self-imposed guardianship and publicity-managership of The Spirit of England over several decades has been mostly a lonely vigil outside the confines of the Elgar Society. It's hardly ever performed, so folk conclude it must be a minor work. Or they look at the title, and turn elsewhere without listening to it, repelled by the thought of what they're sure must be a jingoistic rouser. You explain it's a genuinely profound War piece, that it's Elgar's Requiem, but they don't believe you when you say it's not a tub-thumper. You explain that it's about issues far greater, wider, and deeper than the title suggests, and indeed one of his very greatest works; but you can tell they've made their mind up. So to read your post, Luke, and see how completely you've absorbed it, and all that it truly stands for, is simply marvellous. You've made my day.

(Wonderful that you've picked up on that 'Spirit of England' line, btw!)

Incidentally, the alternative recordings available are worthy efforts and I wouldn't wish to disparage them. I have them myself, and listen to them occasionally just to check whether my opinion has changed. But no: for me, the Cahill/Gibson/SNO is on another level entirely.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 26, 2011, 11:01:19 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 26, 2011, 10:54:28 AM
How fabulous to read this post. My self-imposed guardianship and publicity-managership of The Spirit of England over several decades has been mostly a lonely vigil outside the confines of the Elgar Society. It's hardly ever performed, so folk conclude it must be a minor work. Or they look at the title, and turn elsewhere without listening to it, repelled by the thought of what they're sure must be a jingoistic rouser. You explain it's a genuinely profound War piece, that it's Elgar's Requiem, but they don't believe you when you say it's not a tub-thumper. You explain that it's about issues far greater, wider, and deeper than the title suggests, and indeed one of his very greatest works; but you can tell they've made their mind up.

Ah, the heartache of the My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts stance . . ..

Quote from: Elgarian on August 26, 2011, 10:54:28 AMSo to read your post, Luke, and see how completely you've absorbed it, and all that it truly stands for, is simply marvellous. You've made my day.

(Wonderful that you've picked up on that 'Spirit of England' line, btw!)

Incidentally, the alternative recordings available are worthy efforts and I wouldn't wish to disparage them. I have them myself, and listen to them occasionally just to check whether my opinion has changed. But no: for me, the Cahill/Gibson/SNO is on another level entirely.

Glad of your reassurance, Alan, that I should not regret my prospective, modest superfluity of recordings . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on August 26, 2011, 11:40:22 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 26, 2011, 10:54:28 AM
The Spirit of England is hardly ever performed, so folk conclude it must be a minor work. Or they look at the title, and turn elsewhere without listening to it, repelled by the thought of what they're sure must be a jingoistic rouser.

Well said. As long as I have been into Elgar I have felt so many of his works have been considered "minor" for whatever ignorant reason.

Shockingly, Hickox on EMI is my only version of the work and I am still in the process of purchasing Gibson on Chandos.  ???
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 26, 2011, 07:42:45 PM
Elgar's Hillside has spoken, and I have listened...just shipped yesterday...

[asin]B000000A9N[/asin]


Very excited to have a first listen to "The Spirit of England"
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 11:26:14 AM
I listened to the The Spirit of England, and also in the requisite performance (Gibson/Cahill). There is no doubt that this is a marvellous and moving work. Every movement has its own unforgettable character. Elgar's musical language is both grand and wrenching. My favourite (hair-raising) dissonant is at the word 'go' in 'Now in thy splendour GO before us' at the end of 'The Fourth of August', where a low G clashes sensationally with a piercing F# (I had a look at the Vocal Score). As a Dutchman I can 'watch' this music more from the outside (like Luke said about the Scottish performers). Still, the sentiment it expresses is quite universal.


Another thought: because Teresa Cahill is so superb (she reminds me of Janet Baker), I saw the Spirit of England as a sort of Marianne. But this work can be sung by a tenor, too. I wonder how that would work.


Final thought: how different Elgar and Delius are! Delius's Requiem is dedicated to fallen artists, is harshly anti-religious and pantheistic, celebrating the seasons and eternal renewal, whereas Elgar mourns for 'our glorious men, with a special thought for the WORCESTERS' and is forever England.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on August 27, 2011, 12:21:10 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 11:26:14 AM
Still, the sentiment it expresses is quite universal.

Yes, and there's the point - I think when this work speaks of England it is only an English composer talking about those feelings of pride in the 'national character' that most of us have in some degree about our own country. Substitute your own country's name and the rush of sentiment is probably more or less the same. [This would be the place to talk about the manipulative power of music - listening to this work in the last few days has left me feeling highly manipulated, into areas of feeling I don't usually roam around in. And yet that's only what all music does, to a greater or lesser extent]

****

Was listening to the Violin Concerto tonight. It left me reeling (again, but every time I listen it does so more and more). It was the Bean recording, naturally - though I can say with some pride, given the recent run on Bean, that this was actually the recording I was brought up on, though my CD purchase was more recent. I've always adored this reading; it was nice to find I wasn't alone!

When I was a boy, I read and re-read Ralph Hill's old books on 'The Symphony' and 'The Concerto.' Over and over again, incessantly. It's how I acquired my working knowledge of much of the standard repertoire, before my score-buying took off. So that is how I got to know the Elgar VC, Bean on the turntable, Ralph Hill's book in hand. It is years since I read that book, but I am pretty sure that somewhere near the beginning of its discussion of the Elgar VC is a phrase that runs along these lines:

Quote from: approximate rendition of Ralph Hill's book!'At the top of the score Elgar enscribed 'Aqui está encerrada el alma de .....' ('Herein is enshrined the soul of .....'), intending the dots to stand for his enigmatic 'Windflower.' But the inscription could equally well read, 'Herein is enshrined the soul of the violin.'

As a kid I thought I knew what that meant - that the piece is wonderfully written work for the violin that shows a great understanding and use of all its various moods and capacities. And it is that, of course. But listening today I thought of that little passage again. The more I know this work the more I think there is nothing else like it (as a boy, and a celllist to boot, the more obvious charms of the Cello Concerto lured me even more strongly, but I hardly listen to that work now, in comparison - it is the mysterious VC that pulls me back again and again). It is a Violin Concerto, but with Violin written in Upper Case - there is no possibility of imagining any of the solo line on any other instrument; no transcription could ever be made without utterly destroying everything about the piece, and the more I thought on this, the more I realised how unusual that is in a VC (I could imagine workable transcriptions of the Brahms, the Sibelius, the Tchaikovsky, the Mendelssohn etc etc; Beethoven even did it for us with his own...! But I can't imagine the Elgar in this way) The solo line moves as mercurially as a dancer, turning on a pin, flexible, bending itself to others and others to it. A hallmark of this music is the kaleidoscopic chnges of tone and mood within a single phrase, so that we do not have chunks of virtuosity followed by chunks of lyricism, but so that we have both and either all the time, mixed up capriciously and movingly. Like a real human being feeling real emotions, not an actor declaiming someone else's. Sequences in this piece are rarely verbatim; we hear a phrase, and when we hear it again, five seconds later, one tone higher, it is inflected (for example) with brusque double-stops or some such, propelling its emotional journey as if from within, not from without. It is truly wondrous stuff, and written with such blazing conviction from first note to last. I thought, all of a sudden, of another piece which suddenly seemed to share some hard-to-define quality with this amazing VC - and really I can't think of more than these two. The other one is Mahler's 9th (I'm talking about its best movement, the first one). That too has this amazing detailed, nuanced work, always in flux, always moving, the immense emotional charge of the music changing at every turn and carrying the listener breathlessly with it. It too has this hard-to-resist invitation to overuse the words mercurial and kaleidoscopic when describing its sound, but like the Elgar VC 1st movement, all this mercuriality etc takes place within a strange tempo which feels like an often-turbulent Andante even though it is nominally an Allegro, and is thus not mercurial at all. Very odd, and very wonderful.

I'm not sure any of that even makes any sense.  :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 12:42:33 PM
Quote from: Luke on August 27, 2011, 12:21:10 PM
Yes, and there's the point - I think when this work speaks of England it is only an English composer talking about those feelings of pride in the 'national character' that most of us have in some degree about our own country. Substitute your own country's name and the rush of sentiment is probably more or less the same. [This would be the place to talk about the manipulative power of music - listening to this work in the last few days has left me feeling highly manipulated, into areas of feeling I don't usually roam around in. And yet that's only what all music does, to a greater or lesser extent]


Not many are really 'safe' from that rush of sentiment. Even I couldn't help feeling a sense of national pride when I was in Denmark once - there is a museum at Frederiksborg Slot, a royal castle, and one painting depicted the defeat of the Swedes in Copenhagen, where the Danes were helped by the Dutch (for business reasons, of course), sailing in in their colossal-looking ships, the Dutch flag flying merrily...



QuoteI'm not sure any of that even makes any sense.  :D


It does. I think what you say is: I seem to be listening to an intense natural process, both emotional and intellectual, rendered in shocking realtime.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 27, 2011, 12:59:24 PM
Quote from: Luke on August 27, 2011, 12:21:10 PM
A hallmark of this music is the kaleidoscopic chnges of tone and mood within a single phrase, so that we do not have chunks of virtuosity followed by chunks of lyricism, but so that we have both and either all the time, mixed up capriciously and movingly. Like a real human being feeling real emotions, not an actor declaiming someone else's. Sequences in this piece are rarely verbatim; we hear a phrase, and when we hear it again, five seconds later, one tone higher, it is inflected (for example) with brusque double-stops or some such, propelling its emotional journey as if from within, not from without. It is truly wondrous stuff, and written with such blazing conviction from first note to last.

Well it makes sense to me, by golly. We express ourselves in different ways, Luke, but I think the driving force is very similar. If I were to have a shot at identifying the underlying character, it would be related somehow to some sort of perpetually shifting polarisation. As you suggest, he is continually operating between extreme positions - extremes being understood in different ways. So you, here, contrast chunks of virtuosity and chunks of lyricism, not presented as separate, distinct passages, but interwoven. Now I'd say that is characteristic of this concerto; and in exactly the same way I'd talk about a similar interplay between masculine and feminine. Between public face and private. Between even, perhaps, manic and depressive. And exactly as you say - this is what life is like - and certainly what life for Elgar was like. We live it in these continual states of transition between extremes, and the music is paralleling that. We might misquote Cezanne and say that the concerto was 'a harmony parallel to the living of a life': life as Elgar lived it, full of unfulfilled heartbreaking longings that exist alongside brash, almost vulgar public buoyancy.

Nowhere is this better exemplified than in the cadenza, where the two polarised emotions could be seen as hope and despair, battling it out between themselves, almost as if all that had gone before had (incredibly), left too many unanswered musical and existential questions. The implicit hope expressed in the windflower themes continually falters into despair - so close to despair that there are a couple of moments when the music undergoes a kind of temporary death, and there's a momentary fear that it may not recover, but just stop.

So what, then, is the 'soul' to which the famous dedication refers? Elgar would chuckle at our puzzling over that, wouldn't he?  You're right - it could be the Violin. It could be Windflower. It could be Elgar himself. It could be all of them - in fact I think it is. Musically, it's the violin; emotionally, it's Windflower; existentially, it's Elgar himself. Just as in the Enigma Variations he expresses himself through the friends musically pictured within, so in the Violin Concerto we might say that he expresses himself in three primary ways: through the Violin; through the idea of the yearned-for feminine; and through the existential uncertainties between his public and private life - uncertainties that caused him so much pain, but whose workings were the source of his finest inspirations.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on August 27, 2011, 01:29:40 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 27, 2011, 12:59:24 PM
Well it makes sense to me, by golly. We express ourselves in different ways, Luke, but I think the driving force is very similar. If I were to have a shot at identifying the underlying character, it would be related somehow to some sort of perpetually shifting polarisation. As you suggest, he is continually operating between extreme positions - extremes being understood in different ways. So you, here, contrast chunks of virtuosity and chunks of lyricism, not presented as separate, distinct passages, but interwoven. Now I'd say that is characteristic of this concerto; and in exactly the same way I'd talk about a similar interplay between masculine and feminine. Between public face and private. Between even, perhaps, manic and depressive. And exactly as you say - this is what life is like - and certainly what life for Elgar was like. We live it in these continual states of transition between extremes, and the music is paralleling that. We might misquote Cezanne and say that the concerto was 'a harmony parallel to the living of a life': life as Elgar lived it, full of unfulfilled heartbreaking longings that exist alongside brash, almost vulgar public buoyancy.

Nowhere is this better exemplified than in the cadenza, where the two polarised emotions could be seen as hope and despair, battling it out between themselves, almost as if all that had gone before had (incredibly), left too many unanswered musical and existential questions. The implicit hope expressed in the windflower themes continually falters into despair - so close to despair that there are a couple of moments when the music undergoes a kind of temporary death, and there's a momentary fear that it may not recover, but just stop.

So what, then, is the 'soul' to which the famous dedication refers? Elgar would chuckle at our puzzling over that, wouldn't he?  You're right - it could be the Violin. It could be Windflower. It could be Elgar himself. It could be all of them - in fact I think it is. Musically, it's the violin; emotionally, it's Windflower; existentially, it's Elgar himself. Just as in the Enigma Variations he expresses himself through the friends musically pictured within, so in the Violin Concerto we might say that he expresses himself in three primary ways: through the Violin; through the idea of the yearned-for feminine; and through the existential uncertainties between his public and private life - uncertainties that caused him so much pain, but whose workings were the source of his finest inspirations.

What a beautiful post. What a pleasure to read. Thank you so much for that, so much food for thought in there. This is what I love about the way you write, Alan - you often seem to have the key, in images and words, to what it really is that makes the music tick, and when one reads that sort of writing, the shock of recognition is so wonderful - 'Ah, so that's [at least part of] the reason why this music has this intangible efect on me!' It is the putting into words of something that is usually almost impossible to put into words; it's what a few of us try to do here, and is wonderful to read when it is manged. (Wilfrid Mellers is, for me, the writer who does this sort of thing most consitently and revelatorily, if that can be a word, FWIW)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on August 27, 2011, 01:32:22 PM
Oh, BTW, I also put on the Vellingers/Lane in the Quintet today. Very nice indeed, very convincing (as you say, it's hard to find a recording that doesn't convince, though - I was certainly 100% sold already!). They were very tight; I'm not sure if it is a fast reading in clock time, but very often it felt it, in an entirely positive way - really vibrant, corruscating playing in theouter movements which brought things to life very effectively.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 01:41:44 PM
Alan's channeling of Edward, aided by the Venerable Luke, certainly has augmented my understanding of and love for Elgar's music... Thanks, gents.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 27, 2011, 01:46:37 PM
Really enjoyed In the South this afternoon; I don't think I had ever listened to it closely before.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 27, 2011, 01:58:29 PM
Quote from: Luke on August 27, 2011, 01:29:40 PM
It is the putting into words of something that is usually almost impossible to put into words; it's what a few of us try to do here, and is wonderful to read when it is managed.

I felt much the same when I read your empassioned analysis of what you'd been listening to. I could tell that you'd written it as Ted Hughes always said poetry should (in the first instance) be written: that is, by not focusing on the words at all, but by focusing on the subject, and then just letting the words bubble out. Because, as Hughes promises - they will bubble out, if you give them space. And when they do (that is, under these special conditions), they don't fight each other (as they often do when we try to compose them consciously), but rather they create something full of energy and coherence that has the qualities of life that were inherent in the original subject.

I think it's fantastic that we can exchange thoughts like this - and understand each other - about something so abstract as a piece of music. It doesn't exactly 'explain' the music; rather, it allows us to look afresh at the music through someone else's eyes (well, ears, rather). The benefit is perceptive rather than intellectual. Good fun too!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on August 27, 2011, 02:26:08 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 01:41:44 PM
Alan's channeling of Edward, aided by the Venerable Luke, certainly has augmented my understanding of and love for Elgar's music... Thanks, gents.

Venerable? Moi? First time I've been called that!

Alan - thanks!  :) I like that Hughes idea; it's how I feel music should be written too (how I try to write mine, as you say, 'at least at first'). How can music communicate at a more-than-surface level if it hasn't come from somewhere below the surface?

Of course, I won't take offence at 'I could tell that you'd written it...by not focusing on the words'  ;D  ;D because I know and agree with exactly what you mean! And I know, too, that my writing can get lost sometimes, too, though the meaning is in there, struggling to get out! Usually...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 27, 2011, 10:55:45 PM
Quote from: Luke on August 27, 2011, 02:26:08 PM
Of course, I won't take offence at 'I could tell that you'd written it...by not focusing on the words'  ;D  ;D because I know and agree with exactly what you mean! And I know, too, that my writing can get lost sometimes, too, though the meaning is in there, struggling to get out! Usually...

Well I'm glad about that, because it truly was a compliment, and indeed I have no higher praise! Although my response came out with a slightly unfortunate cast, expressed as a negative ('by not focussing on the words'), what I was wanting to draw attention to was that I'd responded to the life and truth in the words you'd actually used. It's a characteristic of writing in that particular way: the words come up rough-hewn but true, instead of being self-consciously overwrought and missing the mark. One might say the writing becomes more transparent, enabling the subject to be seen more clearly. A sentence of that kind of writing is worth more than a hundred pages of puff and polish (witness Hughes's own poetry).

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on August 27, 2011, 11:33:03 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 27, 2011, 10:55:45 PM
Well I'm glad about that, because it truly was a compliment, and indeed I have no higher praise! Although my response came out with a slightly unfortunate cast, expressed as a negative ('by not focussing on the words'), what I was wanting to draw attention to was that I'd responded to the life and truth in the words you'd actually used. It's a characteristic of writing in that particular way: the words come up rough-hewn but true, instead of being self-consciously overwrought and missing the mark. One might say the writing becomes more transparent, enabling the subject to be seen more clearly. A sentence of that kind of writing is worth more than a hundred pages of puff and polish (witness Hughes's own poetry).

Don't worry, I knew it was a compliment and it didn't read as anything other!  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on August 28, 2011, 12:00:45 AM
Finally ordered the Gibson's Spirit of England last night. I should have made this purchase ages ago since I really only have only one versions of Coronation Ode and Spirit of England.

I have been spoiling myself lately with filthy cheap Amazon marketplace discs (under £1+shipping) and the £5.81 delivered I paid for the Elgar feels like a bankruptcy. But it is Elgar and it's only money.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 28, 2011, 01:24:16 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 28, 2011, 12:00:45 AM
But it is Elgar and it's only money.  ;)

That's the spirit! (of England ...)

It's cheap at the price. After all, we're talking about the CD which, if I had to give all my CDs away one by one, would be the last to go.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on August 28, 2011, 05:52:34 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 28, 2011, 01:24:16 AM
That's the spirit! (of England ...)
:D

Quote from: Elgarian on August 28, 2011, 01:24:16 AMIt's cheap at the price. After all, we're talking about the CD which, if I had to give all my CDs away one by one, would be the last to go.
I know.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 28, 2011, 06:23:41 AM
You mean to say, that I ordered three different recordings of The Spirit of England at a time when Poju himself had never heard the piece? . . .

; )
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 28, 2011, 09:37:04 AM
Elgar is an absolute favourite composer of mine, his music is evokes so much emotion from me. My personal favourite pieces of Elgar are the two symphonies which I believe are utterly magical and shining with beauty and emotional power. But I happily listen to anything he wrote, my other favourites being the "In The South" overture, Sea Pictures, Enigma Variations, String Serenade, the two concertos and the two beautiful miniatures "Dream Children".
It is such a shame that so little of Elgar's music is known outside England, it's amazing that apparently until 2010 when Ashkenazy recorded the work with the Sydney Symphony Orchestra, the second symphony had only ever been recorded  with British orchestras.  :( And I have to admit that when the work is performed by orchestras outside Britain, the score is not always as beautiful or heart-warmingly played. Even the Berliner Philharmoniker's performance a few years ago seemed rather dry compared to a British orchestra's performance.... I wonder why this is?
In terms of best performances of Elgar's works.... my favourite performances of the two symphonies has to be Solti's with the LPO.

[asin]B00000425P[/asin]
And this performance of the Enigma from Bernstein is a must from any Elgar fan! Full of passion and power, helped by Bernstein's much more broad speeds in the finale.

[asin]B0000012UG[/asin]
Have a nice day everyone, Happy listening (to Elgar perhaps?!)  ;)
Best Wishes!
Daniel
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 28, 2011, 01:10:20 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 21, 2011, 12:52:00 PM
Well I hope the Tate is a bit more lively than the Davis. How does his timing compare, Karl?

Not sure that I responded here . . . I was mistaken, and it is not In the South on this Jeffrey Tate/LSO two-fer, but Cockaigne . . . another piece, though, Alan, which I doubt I've listened to properly yet . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 28, 2011, 01:19:09 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 28, 2011, 01:10:20 PM
Not sure that I responded here . . . I was mistaken, and it is not In the South on this Jeffrey Tate/LSO two-fer, but Cockaigne . . . another piece, though, Alan, which I doubt I've listened to properly yet . . . .
Oh - that one's a beaut! It is on the same disc as Symphony #2 (Boult) and I find I look forward to that entire disc quite a bit. Cockaigne is very British and very Elgar. I mean that in the best sense, as it is uplifting and moving. It doesn't have quite the long line of even some of his shorter pieces, but it's still very good!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 28, 2011, 01:22:53 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 28, 2011, 01:10:20 PM
Not sure that I responded here . . . I was mistaken, and it is not In the South on this Jeffrey Tate/LSO two-fer, but Cockaigne . . . another piece, though, Alan, which I doubt I've listened to properly yet . . . .

Oh! Chalk and cheese, Karl. Cockaigne is a cracker - full of Elgar's blustery London Englishness, but in all the right ways; and in the middle of all the honking taxis and horseguards, there's a lovely slower section with an almost pastoral feel to it - gorgeous tune. It's easy to like, I'd say. OK, daft thing to say, I know. But it is.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 28, 2011, 01:24:06 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 28, 2011, 01:19:09 PM
Oh - that one's a beaut! It is on the same disc as Symphony #2 (Boult) and I find I look forward to that entire disc quite a bit. Cockaigne is very British and very Elgar. I mean that in the best sense, as it is uplifting and moving. It doesn't have quite the long line of even some of his shorter pieces, but it's still very good!

With two such Cockaigne supporters, surely Karl must be convinced!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 28, 2011, 01:27:03 PM
Nor have I any objection to a composer writing alternately chalk and cheese.  By chance (really) I did run into that Tate recording, so here I am a-listening to the Op.40 with pleasure.

Oh, and Alan . . . while I am sure there is extra value to the Elgar recording, I found myself thoroughly enjoying the Andrew Davis account of In the South.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 28, 2011, 01:28:38 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 28, 2011, 01:24:06 PM
With two such Cockaigne supporters, surely Karl must be convinced!
I hope so. And the slower section does indeed have a certain 'pastoralness' to it. Very apt!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 28, 2011, 01:29:25 PM
The symphonies, too, are growing on me more than I should have suspected . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 28, 2011, 01:37:04 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 28, 2011, 09:37:04 AM
In terms of best performances of Elgar's works.... my favourite performances of the two symphonies has to be Solti's with the LPO.

And this performance of the Enigma from Bernstein is a must from any Elgar fan! Full of passion and power, helped by Bernstein's much more broad speeds in the finale.

I also think quite highly of Solti and Bernstein's Elgar. If Solti's symphonies aren't my absolute favorites (that would be Previn's First and Sinopoli's Second), the Bernstein is my favorite Enigma.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 28, 2011, 01:39:32 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 28, 2011, 01:27:03 PM
Oh, and Alan . . . while I am sure there is extra value to the Elgar recording, I found myself thoroughly enjoying the Andrew Davis account of In the South.

So have I. Until a few days ago, I'd never actually tried to compare different performances, and I certainly recall having enjoyed the Andrew Davis in the past, when listening to it on its own merits. However, the other day when I was posting here, for the first time I listened to Sir Andrew's In The South more or less directly after Sir Edward's ... and the difference was startling, if not revelatory.

(Lest it be thought that I have some prejudice against Andrew Davis, let me say that his Enigma is blisteringly fine. Tip top. Tippest of the toppest.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 28, 2011, 02:12:48 PM
That Sospiri is a sweet little number, isn't it?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 28, 2011, 03:14:52 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 28, 2011, 01:37:04 PM
I also think quite highly of Solti and Bernstein's Elgar. If Solti's symphonies aren't my absolute favorites (that would be Previn's First and Sinopoli's Second), the Bernstein is my favorite Enigma.

Sarge

We need an Elgar listening party, Sarge. If so, seems as if only one of us would need to bring the recordings.  ;D

How familiar is anyone with this collection...

[asin]B0009VYP92[/asin]

...I have the single discs of The Music Makers, etc... and Symphony no.2 from this collection, but I see this is ultra cheap at the MP, and was wondering how the rest of the performances match up.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 28, 2011, 03:24:06 PM
That's what I've been listening to, Greg. I'm not up to a proper report yet, but I'm liking what I hear very well, making my gradual way.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brahmsian on August 28, 2011, 04:03:08 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 28, 2011, 09:37:04 AM
Have a nice day everyone, Happy listening (to Elgar perhaps?!)  ;)
Best Wishes!
Daniel

Welcome to GMG, Daniel.  From your pal, Ray.  Glad to see you make your first post!   8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on August 28, 2011, 07:06:04 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 28, 2011, 01:39:32 PM
(Lest it be thought that I have some prejudice against Andrew Davis, let me say that his Enigma is blisteringly fine. Tip top. Tippest of the toppest.)

Hmm, must listen to that again. The most important question is, can you hear the pennies drumming?

@TheGSMoeller, I have the above in the Andrew Davis box (all of which is at the very least acceptable) BTW. His Music Makers is terrific, but unfortunately all on one track.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 28, 2011, 07:13:52 PM
Thanks, Karl & eyeresist for the responses!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on August 28, 2011, 07:19:26 PM
Oh, I'd better add I found the recordings of the symphonies in the Davis box a little woolly sounding, lacking in the high frequencies. This isn't just my imagination, because I recall a review saying the Warner reissues had inferior sound to the Telarc originals. This only applies to the two discs with the symphonies; everything else is fine.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 29, 2011, 12:42:37 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 28, 2011, 03:14:52 PM
How familiar is anyone with this collection...

[asin]B0009VYP92[/asin]

...I have the single discs of The Music Makers, etc... and Symphony no.2 from this collection, but I see this is ultra cheap at the MP, and was wondering how the rest of the performances match up.

This raises an interesting question, following on from our earlier discussions about his In The South, and the effect of listening to different recordings one after another.

I'll begin with an anecdote. A few years ago I was staying for a few days in a cottage on the edge of the Malvern Hills, and I had that Andrew Davis box with me (newly bought at the Elgar Birthplace Museum shop), and I listened to all of it, spread over several mornings and evenings, and some pieces twice. At no stage did I ever feel short-changed. There was no occasion when I wished it were some other performance, and there many occasions when I thought it was wonderful.

Since that time I've had a warm regard for the set. I remember being surprised when I looked it up later to discover how sniffy the Penguin Guide (for example) is about it. Sure, they single out certain pieces for high praise (I agree with them entirely that the Enigma is very special) but the 1st symphony, for instance, is described as a 'rather plain reading which falls short at the very end'. Which seemed odd, because it was one of the highlights of my own listening experience, packed with spine-tingling moments and indeed tears, at the end.

Which brings me to the core of the problem. The only occasion when I've had  my doubts about the set was when I listened to the Davis In The South directly after listening to Elgar's own recording, just a couple of days ago, and reported here above. The Davis seemed ponderous and dull after the Elgar. But I'm now inclined to think that what's really in question here is not the Davis performance, but the wisdom of comparing performances in this way. On this occasion the earlier listening to the Elgar recording set up an expectation which the Davis failed to fulfil. But so what, I now ask myself? I've listened to that Davis In The South on previous occasions and, if not carried away by it, have found it no less than acceptable. What if I'd listen first to the Davis and then to the Elgar. Would I have found the Elgar to be too rushed and energetic? (I'm not going to do the experiment to find out.)

So I'm inclined to revoke my various star ratings given earlier (above). I don't think I accept the validity of the method I used to arrive at them. And to anyone wondering about buying the Andrew Davis Elgar box, I'd say don't hesitate. It contains some outstanding performances and no bad ones. Take it on its own merits, and don't mess about doing A/B comparisons with alternatives. And if you feel so inclined, take it to Elgar's own country, and listen to it looking out over Elgar's favourite woodland hills around Birchwood, and I can tell you with confidence that it won't fail that test. (Even with dodgy equipment!)

Incidentally, yes there is a certain warmth - one might call it wooliness - about some of the recordings. Doesn't trouble me particularly, but perhaps that's because I don't hear those high frequencies anyway, these days.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on August 29, 2011, 12:52:51 AM

Perhaps you are overdoing the fairmindedness? If all must have prizes, how will we know who's Best?



* Capitalised "Best" a reference to Top gear.

** "All must have prizes" originally said by the Dodo in Alice in Wonderland.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 29, 2011, 01:05:56 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 29, 2011, 12:42:37 AM
This raises an interesting question, following on from our earlier discussions about his In The South, and the effect of listening to different recordings one after another.

I'll begin with an anecdote. A few years ago I was staying for a few days in a cottage on the edge of the Malvern Hills, and I had that Andrew Davis box with me (newly bought at the Elgar Birthplace Museum shop), and I listened to all of it, spread over several mornings and evenings, and some pieces twice. At no stage did I ever feel short-changed. There was no occasion when I wished it were some other performance, and there many occasions when I thought it was wonderful.

Since that time I've had a warm regard for the set. I remember being surprised when I looked it up later to discover how sniffy the Penguin Guide (for example) is about it. Sure, they single out certain pieces for high praise (I agree with them entirely that the Enigma is very special) but the 1st symphony, for instance, is described as a 'rather plain reading which falls short at the very end'. Which seemed odd, because it was one of the highlights of my own listening experience, packed with spine-tingling moments and indeed tears, at the end.

Which brings me to the core of the problem. The only occasion when I've had  my doubts about the set was when I listened to the Davis In The South directly after listening to Elgar's own recording, just a couple of days ago, and reported here above. The Davis seemed ponderous and dull after the Elgar. But I'm now inclined to think that what's really in question here is not the Davis performance, but the wisdom of comparing performances in this way. On this occasion the earlier listening to the Elgar recording set up an expectation which the Davis failed to fulfil. But so what, I now ask myself? I've listened to that Davis In The South on previous occasions and, if not carried away by it, have found it no less than acceptable. What if I'd listen first to the Davis and then to the Elgar. Would I have found the Elgar to be too rushed and energetic? (I'm not going to do the experiment to find out.)

So I'm inclined to revoke my various star ratings given earlier (above). I don't think I accept the validity of the method I used to arrive at them. And to anyone wondering about buying the Andrew Davis Elgar box, I'd say don't hesitate. It contains some outstanding performances and no bad ones. Take it on its own merits, and don't mess about doing A/B comparisons with alternatives. And if you feel so inclined, take it to Elgar's own country, and listen to it looking out over Elgar's favourite woodland hills around Birchwood, and I can tell you with confidence that it won't fail that test. (Even with dodgy equipment!)

Incidentally, yes there is a certain warmth - one might call it wooliness - about some of the recordings. Doesn't trouble me particularly, but perhaps that's because I don't hear those high frequencies anyway, these days.
Personally,I would approach this a bit differently. There are usually two main questions that I think most buyers ask themselves when they buy a recording (and I am excluding those who buy multiple recordings of the same piece to some degree).

The first question is: Does this recording (and the artists performing it) convey the heart, soul, meaning, flavor, etc. of the piece or not. This is the first question and I suspect that a good majority of recordings do. Perhaps some do and partially do not. But this is the starting point. One can have various criteria when thinking about it: Period performance, instruments used, stylistic approach, heart/soul vs technical, etc.

I think the second question then becomes: How does this recording compare to others and is this the one upon which I should spend my hard earned money? Will I be getting what I want to get out of the piece? This then becomes a comparison of all sorts of data and opinions on an array of subjects. One can compare the merits of different recordings, but I think it IS necessary and helpful to the listener. But that does not mean that one is better than another, only that they are different and that you (or whoever) preferred one approach to another. The important thing is not to know which In the South you prefer, but why you prefer it.

A couple examples: Spirit of England. You and others have been going on and on and on about the Gibson. I don't have it - I have the Dutton release, which I think is fantastic. But when I read your opinions, I see what attracts you and what you think goes over well. I must say that the solo parts are not the most important to me. How one artist stresses a particular word is not going to sway me one way or another. But the impact of the choral singing will (which is great in the Dutton by the way). So you see, the comparisons are helpful. I also think we need to be careful about saying one is better. In most cases, they are just a bit different, and one is necessarily way ahead of the other, though they may be way ahead in only a particular aspect. Really, we are saying that one is preferred.

Music Makers - I have this with Davis (on a single disc) and I think I have fallen for it like you have fallen for Spirit of England. In any case, Davis here is excellent. That alone, in my opinion, makes the Davis set worth considering. Are the others the 'best'  - don't know and don't care. I won't really know how much I like them until I hear them. This is why recommending is fraught with difficulties. What attracts me to the music may not be what attracts you to the music. One can only explain why one prefers one over another and let the reader make their own decision. I used to worry about getting the best. I don't even think about that anymore.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 29, 2011, 01:08:45 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 28, 2011, 07:06:04 PM
Hmm, must listen to that again. The most important question is, can you hear the pennies drumming?

Pennies? You mean ... they don't use real engines?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 29, 2011, 01:40:57 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 29, 2011, 01:05:56 AM
Personally,I would approach this a bit differently. ... I used to worry about getting the best. I don't even think about that anymore.

I think there's great wisdom in all that you say (as represented by my three dots), and as a general rule I don't think my approach in practice (as opposed to what might spill out here in the enthusiasm of the moment) is very different from what you're advocating. My comments above arose directly from a realisation that I'd done something I don't normally choose to do (direct A/B comparisons) and was (perhaps naively) shocked by the outcome.

What the experiment highlights is not merely that we each listen in different ways (and hence choose our favourites differently, as you clearly point out); but also that we listen inconsistently - and the reason why we listen in any one particular way at any one time may not be something we're conscious of. It seems a bit daft of me (and obvious) in hindsight, but when I was comparing the two versions of In The South, I didn't consider what effect the order of listening might have had on how I listened on the second occasion, and reported the result as if it were somehow (albeit personally and subjectively) definitive. But it wasn't, and isn't, and can't be.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Guido on August 29, 2011, 02:49:12 AM
Has The Elgarian given us his official pronouncement on the Music Makers? I remember hearing it live 4 or 5 years ago and thinking it was terrible, but I'm more than willing to admit that I was either being unfair, or that it was a subpar performance.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 29, 2011, 03:26:30 AM
I've not yet listened to the recording of The Music Makers in this box (and why not pop it in right now?) . . . the one I've heard is probably the Boult, which I liked very well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 29, 2011, 04:52:42 AM
Quote from: Guido on August 29, 2011, 02:49:12 AM
Has The Elgarian given us his official pronouncement on the Music Makers? I remember hearing it live 4 or 5 years ago and thinking it was terrible, but I'm more than willing to admit that I was either being unfair, or that it was a subpar performance.

Heaven forbid that I should ever make an official prouncement on anything! Everything I say carries a health warning.

Music Makers isn't a favourite of mine, though I can enjoy it, because Elgar is being so openly nostalgic about his own work. For me, it's a fond pleasure to recognise the references to his own stuff; others might well find it cloying and self-indulgent, and I can understand how that could arise.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Guido on August 29, 2011, 04:55:35 AM
My tongue was firmly in my cheek.  ;D I just remember thinking that it didn't hang together well at all, and that everytime he changed something about the original, it was worse than the original! I should probably just give it another spin at some point.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 29, 2011, 04:56:26 AM
Cross-posts . . . .

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 29, 2011, 03:36:08 AM
Good morning, all!

Maiden-Listen Mondays (this recording)!

Elgar
The Music Makers, Op. 69
"Ode"by Arthur O'Shaughnessy
Jean Rigby, mezzo
BBC Symphony Chorus & Orchestra
Sir Andrew Davis


Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 29, 2011, 04:20:34 AM
So what did you think of the Music Makers?

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 29, 2011, 04:29:25 AM
Well, this was re-visitation after a long interval.  As a piece generally, I enjoy it as a concert choral work; compositionally, I also enjoy it as a sort of gloss upon the Enigma Variations. I could see being annoyed with a 40-minute piece being a single track on a CD . . . but that's not Elgar's fault.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 29, 2011, 04:56:57 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 28, 2011, 01:37:04 PM
I also think quite highly of Solti and Bernstein's Elgar. If Solti's symphonies aren't my absolute favorites (that would be Previn's First and Sinopoli's Second), the Bernstein is my favorite Enigma.

Sarge

I am glad you agree with the Bernstein for the Enigma. Another recording I really adore is Sir Simon Rattle's, this would be my second favourite. A very detailed performance, but not as powerful or passionate as the Bernstein.
I too love the Previn and Sinopoli, but if not Solti, I'd rather have Sir Mark Elder with the Halle for no.1, and Sir Edward Downes with the BBC Phil for no.2. What do you think of these performances?
As the Elgar symphonies are two of my favourite pieces ever written, in fact only beaten by Mahler 6, I believe I have all the recordings available of these two symphonies apart from Tate's, Menuhin's and Ashkenazy's. What does everyone think of these three performances?

Daniel
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 29, 2011, 04:59:26 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 28, 2011, 04:03:08 PM
Welcome to GMG, Daniel.  From your pal, Ray.  Glad to see you make your first post!   8)

Thank you Ray, first of many I am sure! ;)

Daniel
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 29, 2011, 05:00:32 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 29, 2011, 04:56:57 AM
As the Elgar symphonies are two of my favourite pieces ever written, in fact only beaten by Mahler 6, I believe I have all the recordings available of these two symphonies apart from Tate's, Menuhin's and Ashkenazy's. What does everyone think of these three performances?

Welcome, Daniel!

I've had something of a rumbly road with the symphonies, but FWIW, the Tate/LSO recordings were the ones I was listening to, when at last I reckoned that I do like them . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 29, 2011, 05:34:07 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 29, 2011, 05:00:32 AM
Welcome, Daniel!

I've had something of a rumbly road with the symphonies, but FWIW, the Tate/LSO recordings were the ones I was listening to, when at last I reckoned that I do like them . . . .


Hello Karl! Nice to meet you here, and on facebook as well! :)

That's a shame, what did you not like about them before? I fell in love with the 2nd on first hearing, but maybe the 1st took a bit longer to appreciate. But now, favourite pieces of all time! :) Ok, well I am glad the Tate recording persuaded you to like them! :) I shall purchase them soon! Which recordings were you listening to before?

Daniel
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 29, 2011, 05:57:29 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 29, 2011, 04:56:57 AM
I too love the Previn and Sinopoli, but if not Solti, I'd rather have Sir Mark Elder with the Halle for no.1, and Sir Edward Downes with the BBC Phil for no.2. What do you think of these performances?

I haven't heard either but I'd like to. Must order (the Elder is particularly appealing because I see it comes coupled with Elgar's song "In the Moonlight," the melody of which he used in the central section of In the South, I believe.

Here's what I have:

Symphony #1

Boult/LPO
Sinopoli/Philharmonia
Previn/RPO
Tate/LSO
Solti/LPO
C.Davis/LSO
Barbirolli/Philharmonia
Barenboim/LPO

Symphony #2

Boult/LPO
Haitink/Philharmonia
Sinopoli/Philharmonia
Tate/LSO
Solti/LPO
C.Davis/LSO
Elgar/LSO
Svetlanov/USSR State SO
Barbirolli/Hallé


Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 29, 2011, 06:06:28 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 29, 2011, 04:56:57 AM
I believe I have all the recordings available of these two symphonies apart from Tate's, Menuhin's and Ashkenazy's. What does everyone think of these three performances?

Menuhin and Ashkenazy I don't know but have longed loved Tate's Elgar for his broad (in some cases) very broad pacing. I suppose one could say he's interpretively at the opposite extreme from Solti. There is, for example, a five minute difference between their Second Symphony fourth movements.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on August 29, 2011, 06:25:44 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 28, 2011, 06:23:41 AM
You mean to say, that I ordered three different recordings of The Spirit of England at a time when Poju himself had never heard the piece? . . .

; )

Well, I got interested about classical music mid 90's, found Elgar in December 1996 and I had a recording (or two) of most Elgar works by the year 2000. I don't remember exactly when I heard Spirit of England the first time. Maybe 1998?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 29, 2011, 06:38:49 AM
Well, I am mistaken then, for you have heard the piece. All is well : )
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 29, 2011, 06:56:21 AM
Curious about some opinions on Slatkin/LPO recording of Symphony No.1.

I've found it surprisingly good. A very powerful finale, I love to hear the tuba and timpani really pushing through towards the ending.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 29, 2011, 07:03:02 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 29, 2011, 06:56:21 AM
Curious about some opinions on Slatkin/LPO recording of Symphony No.1.

I've found it surprisingly good. A very powerful finale, I love to hear the tuba and timpani really pushing through towards the ending.

That's another version I don't own but would like too. From the reviews it sounds quite intriguing....and I always enjoy hearing non-British conductors in the music. Slatkin's VW is quite good.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 29, 2011, 07:38:42 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 29, 2011, 07:03:02 AM
That's another version I don't own but would like too. From the reviews it sounds quite intriguing....and I always enjoy hearing non-British conductors in the music. Slatkin's VW is quite good.

Sarge

Slatkin's impressive RVW cycle is why I purchased this Elgar, although a different ensemble. Haven't heard his Symphony no.2 yet.
Another non-British no.1 I like is Zinman/Baltimore.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 29, 2011, 07:53:58 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 29, 2011, 04:56:57 AM
As the Elgar symphonies are two of my favourite pieces ever written

I'm struggling to remember, but to the best of my knowledge I don't think I've ever encountered anyone, previously, who's said that. Dammit, I can't even say it myself. The 1st would be top top top of my personal list of favourite symphonies by anyone, anytime; but by contrast no.2 requires a certain mood that I can't always summon, and would mostly give way to other favourites. I think you deserve the official GMG Elgar Symphony Lover's  badge.

Welcome, by the way.

Just been sifting through my stuff to find which versions I have - not to try to decide which comes out on top, but just for the fun moral obligation of joining in the game serious research project:

Symphony no. 1
Elgar/LSO (1930)
Barbirolli/Philharmonia (1962)
Boult/BBC SO (1976 Prom)
Boult/LPO (1977)
Haitink/Philharmonia (1983)
A. Davis/BBC SO (1991)
Slatkin/LPO (1992)
C. Davis/LSO (2001)

Symphony no. 2
Elgar/LSO (1927)
Barbirolli/Philharmonia (1964)
Sargent/BBC SO (1964)
Boult/LPO (1976)
Haitink/Philharmonia (1984)
A. Davis/BBC SO (1992)
Slatkin/LPO (1994)
C. Davis/LSO (2001)

I'd forgotten I had the Haitink nos. 1 and 2 (found it lurking in an obscure corner of one of the CD stacks), and can't remember anything about it; and I've yet to listen to the Sargent no.2, but have no great expectations of it. Otherwise, I've listened to every one of these with pleasure, and without disappointment, on more than one occasion. I remember on a couple of occasions being overwhelmed by the live Boult 1976 Prom performance of the 1st simply because there seemed to be something special 'in the air', but I couldn't possibly analyse why. And the set I tend to reach for most often is Boult 76/77 (for what it's worth).

Equivocally yrs., etc. etc.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 29, 2011, 08:32:35 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 29, 2011, 05:57:29 AM
Here's what I have:

Symphony #1

Boult/LPO
Sinopoli/Philharmonia
Previn/RPO
Tate/LSO
Solti/LPO
C.Davis/LSO
Barbirolli/Philharmonia
Barenboim/LPO

Symphony #2

Boult/LPO
Haitink/Philharmonia
Sinopoli/Philharmonia
Tate/LSO
Solti/LPO
C.Davis/LSO
Elgar/LSO
Svetlanov/USSR State SO
Barbirolli/Hallé


Sarge

Yes, I believe I have all of those recordings, apart from the Tate and plus a few others. But hold on... Svetlanov made a recording of Elgar 2?!!! May I ask what that is like? I think Solti brings the most excitement and beauty out of the score, Elder close behind. The LSO Live Davis releases could be excellent but are let down by the dry sound quality in my opinion. The Boult is obviously a classic, the EMI sound is not the best and I am sure there are a few fluffs in the orchestra, but the Lyrita release is amazing! Barbirolli is a little two broad for my taste.... maybe Sinopoli could be a little more lively as well. So those are my initial opinions on a few. So my favourite is Solti, followed by Elder, then the classic Boult on Lyrita.
I also love Elgar's own historic recordings, Naxos Historical have done a decent remastering, although the hissing is still in the backround and certain details are close to impossible to find...

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 29, 2011, 06:56:21 AM
Curious about some opinions on Slatkin/LPO recording of Symphony No.1.

I've found it surprisingly good. A very powerful finale, I love to hear the tuba and timpani really pushing through towards the ending.

I really love Slatkin's performances of the Elgar symphonies, I think his performance of no.2 overpowers no.1 though. At the climax of the finale in no.2, there is so much power, and I love the definite presence of the organ!

Quote from: Elgarian on August 29, 2011, 07:53:58 AM
I'm struggling to remember, but to the best of my knowledge I don't think I've ever encountered anyone, previously, who's said that. Dammit, I can't even say it myself. The 1st would be top top top of my personal list of favourite symphonies by anyone, anytime; but by contrast no.2 requires a certain mood that I can't always summon, and would mostly give way to other favourites. I think you deserve the official GMG Elgar Symphony Lover's  badge.

Welcome, by the way.

Yes, I am quite aware that no.2 is rather more difficult to relate to. It certainly is a more challenging piece to understand with it's journey from jollity and pride in the opening, to the serene and magical ending. haha ;) I am glad that I deserve the GMG Elgar Symphony Lover's Badge! ;) I just find the second symphony even more beautiful than the first, especially the largo and the ending of the finale, so magical! Maybe it's because I first heard the second symphony in a live concert when I was next to the organ blazing in the finale, quite something to remember. I still find the ending of the finale some of the most beautiful music I have ever heard! :)
Thank you for the welcome, I am very happy to have joined! :)

Best Wishes everyone!
Daniel
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 29, 2011, 09:04:08 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 29, 2011, 08:32:35 AMBut hold on... Svetlanov made a recording of Elgar 2?!!!

Yes, a live recording from Moscow, 1977. The program included Sea Pictures...in Russian. (I imagine Karl would like to hear this.) The "Slavic" voice works quite well in the more somber songs like "Sea Slumber" but it won't soon replace Janet Baker. It's been awhile since I last listened to the CD. I'll need to hear it again, refresh my memory, before commenting on the performance of the symphony. Here's the cover:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/ngmg/ESvet.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on August 29, 2011, 11:33:37 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 29, 2011, 08:32:35 AM
I just find the second symphony even more beautiful than the first, especially the largo and the ending of the finale, so magical! . I still find the ending of the finale some of the most beautiful music I have ever heard! :)
Thank you for the welcome, I am very happy to have joined! :)

Best Wishes everyone!
Daniel

Welcome Daniel! I think very similarly about Elgar's 2nd symphony. I find it about 5 % better that the first symphony and one of Elgar's finest works. If the 1st symphony starts stunning well, the finale of the 2nd is Elgar at his best.  ;)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 29, 2011, 12:22:49 PM
Some interesting different takes on the second symphony coming up here, with words like 'beautiful', 'jollity', 'pride', 'serene', and 'magical' in use.

Now 'beautiful' has a wide enough range of meaning for me to empathise with, but some of these others I don't find ('serenity', for instance, I hear very little of). The prevailing moods of the second symphony, for me, are best described by words like unease or restlessness. Even the slow movement I'd describe as tragic or funereal rather than beautiful - though it is of course beautiful - but in a heart-rending 'this is the irrecoverable end of something precious' way. Where the first symphony is essentially optimistic in outlook (hardly a contentious claim, for Elgar himself described it thus), I feel that his optimism has taken a serious hammering by the time we get to the 2nd.

For the final movement isn't essentially positive, I'd have thought. I'm thinking of how the strong and vigorous opening subsides into another passage of rather spooky unease about halfway through the movement, even for a time threatening to fade away altogether for a minute or two. True, a recovery gradually builds up, lifted almost by its own bootstraps with those jabbing chords, thrusting the mood upwards almost defiantly: 'I will prevail. I will prevail!' But even then it's a temporary resurgence; the restlessness remains with us, and as the movement (and the symphony) draws to a close, I don't get the feeling that all will necessarily be well. Rather, there's an implied acceptance that all may not be well; that something that was intact at the close of the first symphony has been seriously damaged by the time of the composition of the end of the second.

I can understand why its initial reception was so strange - you know - that story about Elgar asking Billy Reed why the audience were just sitting there like a lot of stuffed pigs. The ending must have left them - as it tends to leave me - not knowing quite where I am, or what I feel. I don't say this is a bad thing by any means. It may in many ways be a more profound symphony than the first, because it stares certain bleak truths in the face rather than pushing them aside. But these are the things that stop it being a favourite of mine. If an artist insists I be made to feel uneasy, I'll go along with that, and may have my eyes opened to important things as a result; but usually I can't say I'm sufficiently comfortable with the experience to think in terms of endearment about it.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 29, 2011, 01:24:58 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 29, 2011, 11:33:37 AM
Welcome Daniel! I think very similarly about Elgar's 2nd symphony. I find it about 5 % better that the first symphony and one of Elgar's finest works. If the 1st symphony starts stunning well, the finale of the 2nd is Elgar at his best.  ;)

Thank you! :) Glad to find another passionate admirer of Elgar's 2nd symphony! Yes, it is so difficult to chose which of the symphonies I prefer as I love them so much! The second symphony just about wins due to that extra bit more emotion it evokes from me, especially in the largo and last few minutes of the finale.

Quote from: Elgarian on August 29, 2011, 12:22:49 PM
Even the slow movement I'd describe as tragic or funereal rather than beautiful - though it is of course beautiful - but in a heart-rending 'this is the irrecoverable end of something precious' way. Where the first symphony is essentially optimistic in outlook (hardly a contentious claim, for Elgar himself described it thus), I feel that his optimism has taken a serious hammering by the time we get to the 2nd.


Yes, well, the slow movement is a funeral march with its solemn melody in the trumpets with the chords provided by the rest of the orchestra. I can completely understand, and agree, with what you say about the optimism differences between the 1st and 2nd symphonies. I wouldn't say that the 2nd symphony is in any way pessimistic, but by the end of the piece, the optimism from the opening has been much damaged. Both of the symphonies end with major keys, but the first ends with that magnificent A Flat Major from the whole orchestra, while the second finishes on a diminuendo Eb major chord that must present some kind of anguish, while being absolutely stunning at the same time, what orchestration with those trills in the winds (the first time he used trills in the whole symphony!). Maybe the ending is a way of mourning the optimism that the symphony began with. The fact that Elgar entitled the symphony "the passionate pilgrimage of the soul" could suggest a variety of explanations for this, a journey from life to death maybe? Opinions please! :)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 29, 2011, 09:04:08 AM
Yes, a live recording from Moscow, 1977. The program included Sea Pictures...in Russian. (I imagine Karl would like to hear this.) The "Slavic" voice works quite well in the more somber songs like "Sea Slumber" but it won't soon replace Janet Baker. It's been awhile since I last listened to the CD. I'll need to hear it again, refresh my memory, before commenting on the performance of the symphony.

In Russian? ... well that certainly would be interesting! I shall add it to my amazon wishlist and purchase soon. Oh certainly, not many could even compare to Janet Baker in excellence - well, there are not many to compare unfortunately, not many recordings of Sea Pictures available! But my personal favourite would probably be this more recent Naxos recording from Connolly. What do you think of this one?

[asin]B000JBWUOE [/asin]

Have a nice evening everyone,
Best Wishes
Daniel
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on August 29, 2011, 05:24:18 PM
I first heard the 1st Symphony back in the mid-1970's when I got Boult's performance on the Musical Heritage Society reissue.  I loved it from the beginning. 

It wasn't till much later that I listened to the 2nd for the first time.  I think it was Barbarolli on a Seraphim reissue.  Of course, we're talking about LPs here.  I found it much less immediately appealing than the 1st, and I'm afraid I only listened to it once or twice and then just set it aside.

I've tried listening to it again on CD more recently, but I never felt the urge to get to know it better (much like "Falstaff", another Elgar work that just doesn't make much of an impression on me).

I find that my CD collection right now only has the Menuhin/RPO performances of the symphonies.  I've never really liked Menuhin as a conductor, so I'm not really sure how I ended up with this set as my only one. 

I actually like the Payne "elaboration" of the 3rd symphony much better than any version of the 2nd I've heard so far.  I will need to try the 2nd again in one of the versions you all have recommended here.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on August 29, 2011, 06:19:06 PM
I must admit I haven't completely "bought" the Elgar symphonies, though I've owned a few versions:

Tate / heard many years ago, impression of great lethargy
Barbirolli EMI / probably the most reliable, if not the most faithful
Menuhin / has the swift tempos I'm looking for, but too plain
Solti / too hardbitten
A Davis / acceptable, but not conversion material (as noted above, the Warner sound is a problem)
Slatkin / decent, but inferior to Davis

I think I really need to hear the composer's recordings - I was very impressed by his Enigma.

I'm also wondering about the Previn. This music really should suit him, but he never gets a wholehearted recommendation. I'm guessing the old RCA sound isn't great and the LSO a little scrappy? Should I bother?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 29, 2011, 06:26:43 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 29, 2011, 06:19:06 PM

I'm also wondering about the Previn. This music really should suit him, but he never gets a wholehearted recommendation. I'm guessing the old RCA sound isn't great and the LSO a little scrappy? Should I bother?

Sarge strongly recommended the Previn recording of Symphony No.1 to me, we both share the same favorite for No.2 (Sinopoli) so I had no problem with his Previn choice.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on August 29, 2011, 06:46:08 PM
People seem to be forgetting Colin Davis's LSO Live performances of the symphonies, which I actually enjoyed. Barbirolli's and Sinopoli's readings are also good. The Sinopoli may very well be the underdog of the lot. I also shouldn't forget Adrian Boult's recordings, specifically the Lyrita performances with the London Philharmonic.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on August 29, 2011, 06:53:02 PM
Found this out-of-print 2-CD set with Adrian Boult for $8:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Mar07/Elgar_symphonies_Boult_3821512.jpg)

Can't wait to hear these!

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 30, 2011, 12:03:25 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 29, 2011, 06:53:02 PM
Found this out-of-print 2-CD set with Adrian Boult for $8:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Mar07/Elgar_symphonies_Boult_3821512.jpg)

Can't wait to hear these!

That's an outstanding set, and I can't imagine you not being thrilled by it. That's the one I referred to in my earlier post, when I said it was the one I tended mostly to reach for.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 30, 2011, 12:17:24 AM
Quote from: Vesteralen on August 29, 2011, 05:24:18 PM
I actually like the Payne "elaboration" of the 3rd symphony much better than any version of the 2nd I've heard so far.  I will need to try the 2nd again in one of the versions you all have recommended here.

I can understand where you're coming from, there. I find the third symphony unforgettable, and I think Anthony Payne worked something close to a miracle in putting it together. Favourite moments: I love when the 'Arthur' music surfaces. That is so, so Elgar! Struggling at the end of his life to compose a major work, and still, and still, chivalry and the noble ideal will survive!

And the first movement - oh wow! That dark, surging warning that opens the symphony like a great sea, swelling - and then giving way to the exquisitely feminine second theme that breaks your heart. Again - so very Elgar. By this time he'd met another female muse - Vera Hockman - and she's enshrined in this symphony much as the Windflower is captured in the violin concerto.

If you haven't encountered the Vera Hockman story, try this fabulous book, which will make you reach for the tissues on occasion, and gives real insight into the third symphony:

(http://www.elgarfoundation.org/components/com_redshop/helpers/thumb.php?filename=product/bk2068.jpg&newxsize=0&newysize=200&swap=1)

Available here:
http://www.elgarfoundation.org/index.php/the-elgar-shop/books/product/30/95/Books/Biographies/elgar-in-love (http://www.elgarfoundation.org/index.php/the-elgar-shop/books/product/30/95/Books/Biographies/elgar-in-love)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2011, 12:44:30 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 29, 2011, 06:53:02 PM
Found this out-of-print 2-CD set with Adrian Boult for $8:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Mar07/Elgar_symphonies_Boult_3821512.jpg)

Can't wait to hear these!
That is what I have roughly (it was a 3 CD set that includes all you have there, plus Enigma, P&C, Cockaigne). I like this version, though I have never gotten another, so I hope it works for you too.

This reminds me how I found Elgar. I was in a Tower Records (remember those!) and there was a sale on this set. I only knew Elgar's P&C (Pomp and Circumstance if you were wondering), and I had played the one they play at graduations to death. Over and over (it took me a long time to listen to that track)! But I knew nothing else of Elgar and I had never heard of Boult. But there was this set on sale and I grabbed it! It was probably my first totally spontaneous purchase knowing absolutely nothing about pieces, performers, etc. Well, I think Boult is a good teacher, because I never sought out a replacement.

And this brings me to the second symphony. I think all this talk about it being 'harder' does it a dis-service. When I first heard it, I didn't know if it was was easier or harder, slower or faster, better or worse, etc., and I was immediately taken with it. Probably, coming at it without any knowledge of it beforehand was a boon, as I didn't have some sort of preconception that it was harder or more challenging in some way.  When I think about it, this symphony reminds me in many ways of the Music Makers. Hmm, I had never thought to group the music together to see if there was some sort of thread between them. Will have to think more on this.

What I think throws people off on #2 sometimes (purely a guess on my part) is the apparent choppiness of it. That is, the themes deteriorate as part of a transformational process. But for me, this goes directly to the core of why I think it works so well, maybe because it is a structural feature throughout. It all seems to move logically for me too: happiness and transformation (mvmt 1), leading to sadness (in mvmt 2), leading to anxiety and anger (mvmt 3) and returning to happiness (in mvmt 4, but not at the same starting place - less innocent perhaps, a sense of loss, and yet a sense of renewal too). In this sense, Boult seems to have the piece reach its emotional apex during the final climax in the fourth movement (which takes place about 3/4 of the way through it).   

One other comment, this symphony is among the most 'daydreamable' for me, meaning it engages by imagination and lets it float away with the music if I let it. Only a few pieces get me that 'free'.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 30, 2011, 01:24:54 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2011, 12:44:30 AM
I think all this talk about it [the 2nd symphony] being 'harder' does it a dis-service.

I can see why you might say that, but of course from the point of view of one who does find it hard, it's not so much a disservice as an inescapable fact, albeit a regrettable one. I've been finding it 'hard' for (quick arithmetic) 48 years!!! And I guess, for all those reasons you mention. Your 'choppiness' is probably my 'restlessness', I suspect - for example. And I should stress that I'm not arguing that these are shortcomings of the work itself; they're the things that prevent it from being a personal favourite, which is a very different matter.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 30, 2011, 02:47:30 AM
I prefer the Second Symphony. It is a much more coherent piece. The First uses a motto to bind everything together, but I don't see anything inexorable about the movements' progress. Taken on their own, all of them are wonderful, but I have never felt that they contributed to a central statement. The conclusion of the symphony is overwhelming, though, if done properly - Colin Davis and the Staatskapelle Dresden really are outstanding here, in my opinion. As for the Second Symphony, the opening puts you smack in the middle of what this work is going to be about - the 'Spirit of Delight', and its rare appearances. The work is a quest through wildly differing moods, ending in acceptance, or sad serenity.


Just my few cents.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 30, 2011, 03:34:09 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 29, 2011, 06:19:06 PM

Tate / heard many years ago, impression of great lethargy
Solti / too hardbitten

I'm also wondering about the Previn. This music really should suit him, but he never gets a wholehearted recommendation. I'm guessing the old RCA sound isn't great and the LSO a little scrappy? Should I bother?

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 29, 2011, 06:26:43 PM
Sarge strongly recommended the Previn recording of Symphony No.1 to me...

Right. Previn's First goes to the desert island with me. The recording I'm talking about is with the RPO and the label Philips (not LSO/RCA).

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/new/El1Pr.jpg)

Boult EMI, Solti and Tate I also like. Solti and Tate are sort of the alpha and omega of interpretive possibilities. I understand why you'd characterize one as hardbitten and the other lethargic. I'd choose more flattering adjectives though  ;)  Boult and Previn don't have their extremes.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 30, 2011, 03:55:54 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 30, 2011, 02:47:30 AM
I prefer the Second Symphony. It is a much more coherent piece. The First uses a motto to bind everything together, but I don't see anything inexorable about the movements' progress. Taken on their own, all of them are wonderful, but I have never felt that they contributed to a central statement.

I disagree with this. I find the 1st Symphony does have a central idea, where the grandiose intro theme represents a kind of ideal world, which the rest of the symphony struggles to get back to.

The 2nd is also coherent, but it feels more elusive, misty and uneasy. Maybe it's the "deeper" piece, in the sense that there are more layers and more ambiguity.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 30, 2011, 04:10:53 AM
Quote from: Velimir on August 30, 2011, 03:55:54 AM
I disagree with this. I find the 1st Symphony does have a central idea, where the grandiose intro theme represents a kind of ideal world, which the rest of the symphony struggles to get back to

Well put. I'd rather see the 'ideal world' as the outcome of a struggle, though. Yes, the opening could be considered as the vision the rest of the symphony is striving towards. But to me the First sounds more like a circular argument. The Second, on the other hand, lives in a far more dangerous world. That's why I prefer it. Its conclusion is not foregone, where I have the feeling the one of the First is.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 30, 2011, 04:21:19 AM
Quote from: Velimir on August 30, 2011, 03:55:54 AM
I find the 1st Symphony does have a central idea, where the grandiose intro theme represents a kind of ideal world, which the rest of the symphony struggles to get back to.

Strikes me as an excellent brief description of it. Or it least, it's a description which resembles my own response to it - which may not be the same thing!

I need to be careful how I express this to avoid misunderstanding - but the fact is that I get more feeling of coherence, that is, of a central idea, from Elgar's 1st symphony, than from any other symphony I know. I'm not saying that it really is the most coherent, but registering my own perception of coherence. That is, I'm talking about my personal experience of it, as a statement about the noble ideal which, despite all obstacles, re-emerges in its nobility and optimism. The passage in the final movement, where the militaristic march is redeemed and transformed into a passage of spiritual grace, paving the way for the return of the great opening theme - that's one of the most moving musical experiences I know.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 30, 2011, 04:24:10 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 30, 2011, 04:10:53 AM

The Second, on the other hand, lives in a far more dangerous world. That's why I prefer it.

Brilliantly put! That's why I (being generally chicken-livered and seeking reassurance) don't.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2011, 04:26:09 AM
This 1st vs 2nd thing is turning quite interesting. In rooting around the internet, I came across this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/classical/elgar/notes/note_symph2.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/classical/elgar/notes/note_symph2.shtml). I think you will find it interesting.

I liked this excerpt: Trading one work against another is pointless and both Elgar's First and Second symphonies have an equal claim to our esteem. The Second, though written for the same size orchestra with the addition of a high E flat clarinet and tambourine, certainly does have more complicated textures, and sounds more opulent. It requires the orchestral strings, in particular, to be athletic. As a violinist himself, and also a conductor with considerable experience, Elgar knew what he was asking. In both symphonies, the two harps make a very important contribution, sometimes cushioning the ensemble, sometimes giving it a pearly, luminous quality. In the Second Symphony, the way in which themes migrate, transformed, from movement to movement is particularly subtle, and very natural. The work as a whole is also more mellow, less dramatic, than the First Symphony, whose sharp contrasts of key from movement to movement, or section to section, are avoided, although in the Second Elgar's harmony is very mobile, chromatic and, for short periods, deliberately bewildering.

And from this site, http://www.elgar.org/3symph2x.htm (http://www.elgar.org/3symph2x.htm), I enjoyed this quote: Elgar described his second symphony as 'the passionate pilgrimage of a soul'. The score is headed by a quotation from a poem by Shelley: "Rarely, rarely comest thou spirit of delight!" Elgar wrote of it: "To get near the mood of the Symphony the whole of Shelley's poem may be read, but the music does not illustrate the whole of the poem, neither does the poem entirely elucidate the music'. What it does suggest is the music's predominantly restless and tragic character. It is a study in conflict and paradox. Exuberance followed by depression; gregariousness followed by withdrawal; optimism giving way to resigned fatalism and a deep nostalgia for vanished times.

The bolded portions are what really struck a chord with me (haha).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 30, 2011, 04:29:01 AM
Many thanks for that fruitful trawl!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 30, 2011, 04:29:19 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 29, 2011, 06:46:08 PM
People seem to be forgetting Colin Davis's LSO Live performances of the symphonies, which I actually enjoyed. Barbirolli's and Sinopoli's readings are also good. The Sinopoli may very well be the underdog of the lot. I also shouldn't forget Adrian Boult's recordings, specifically the Lyrita performances with the London Philharmonic.

The Davis/LSO performances are certainly excellent, although I think the recording quality lets them down a little. And sometimes I find Davis to be so dreadfully slow, and often you can hear him humming along which may become rather distracting. I think the best of Davis' LSO cycle (including that dragging performance of the Enigma) is actually his recording of Payne's completion of no.3 which is full of excitement. I think I would actually have the Davis/LSO as my favourite performance of this symphony. But for the other two symphonies, I find Davis is far beaten by Solti, Boult (both EMI and Lyrita releases), Handley and Elder.

Quote from: Mirror Image on August 29, 2011, 06:53:02 PM
Found this out-of-print 2-CD set with Adrian Boult for $8:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Mar07/Elgar_symphonies_Boult_3821512.jpg)

Can't wait to hear these!



John, those are absolutely amazing performances, full of passion and beauty. The performance of "In the South" that comes with it is also breathtaking and is among my favourite performances of this piece, alongside Sir Alexander Gibson's excellent Chandos release. I find Solti a little uninspired in this piece actually unfortunately.... Although, you may hear a few little problems with the remastering, such as sudden changes in dynamic, or just a little bit of hissing, but this really does not take away from the excellence of the performance.

And that brings me onto another question, which are your favourite performances of the concert overtures? For all 3 of them, my choice would have to be Sir Alexander Gibson with the Scottish National Orchestra on Chandos. It is such a shame that Gibson was not on such excellent form in his performance of the 2nd symphony which is very dull!
[asin]B00006ANZQ[/asin]

For Cockaigne, I also love BBCSO/A.Davis and LPO/Solti, for In The South I also rate very highly the LPO/Boult (EMI) and for Froissart I really adore the very first recording I had of it which was the Philharmonia/Barbirolli.

Oh yes, what does everyone think of Elgar's early "Froissart"? I personally think it is a wonderful piece...

I am much enjoying all the discussion here!
Have a nice day everyone!
Best Wishes
Daniel
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 30, 2011, 04:37:50 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 30, 2011, 03:34:09 AM
. . . Boult EMI, Solti and Tate I also like. Solti and Tate are sort of the alpha and omega of interpretive possibilities. I understand why you'd characterize one as hardbitten and the other lethargic. I'd choose more flattering adjectives though  ;)

Indeed!  Tate brought me home with the symphonies.  I had the Andrew Davis earlier (5-6 years before?), and they didn't sell me at first; don't know why, as my revisitation to them (must be the same recordings, only a new and fuller package) in the 5-CD Warner box has been entirely enjoyable.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 30, 2011, 05:42:12 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2011, 04:26:09 AM
This 1st vs 2nd thing is turning quite interesting. In rooting around the internet, I came across this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/classical/elgar/notes/note_symph2.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/classical/elgar/notes/note_symph2.shtml). I think you will find it interesting.

Interesting in a variety of ways, one of which lies in this statement:
"At the end he printed 'Venice – Tintagel' and said that the beginnings of the second and third movements respectively expressed the contrast between the interior of St Mark's and the Piazza outside. However, Tintagel, the ruined castle on the Cornish coast that was to inspire Arnold Bax's sumptuously picturesque tone-poem a few years later, hasn't been identified with any particular part of Elgar's score. These labels are surely no more than circumstantial, and don't offer deep insights into the music."

I don't believe that sentence I've put in bold, for a moment. In April 1910 (smack in the middle of the period of composition of the 2nd symphony, I think) Elgar's 'Windflower', Alice Stuart Wortley was on holiday in Tintagel, and Elgar went to visit them. I think we can be quite certain that the words 'Venice-Tintagel' do offer deep insights into the music - but we can't be quite sure how. I mean, just think: Tintagel as a symbol of the chivalric ideal, lost in history, and in ruin (both actual and symbolic - and let's not forget his use of the 'Arthur' themes in the 3rd symphony), combined with the presence of the (alas, married) Windflower .... quintessential Elgar inspirational sources!

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 30, 2011, 05:44:23 AM
Alan, what is (or, are, as may be) your preferred recording(s) of the Third Symphony?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2011, 05:54:20 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 30, 2011, 05:42:12 AM
Interesting in a variety of ways, one of which lies in this statement:
"At the end he printed 'Venice – Tintagel' and said that the beginnings of the second and third movements respectively expressed the contrast between the interior of St Mark's and the Piazza outside. However, Tintagel, the ruined castle on the Cornish coast that was to inspire Arnold Bax's sumptuously picturesque tone-poem a few years later, hasn't been identified with any particular part of Elgar's score. These labels are surely no more than circumstantial, and don't offer deep insights into the music."

I don't believe that sentence I've put in bold, for a moment. In April 1910 (smack in the middle of the period of composition of the 2nd symphony, I think) Elgar's 'Windflower', Alice Stuart Wortley was on holiday in Tintagel, and Elgar went to visit them. I think we can be quite certain that the words 'Venice-Tintagel' do offer deep insights into the music - but we can't be quite sure how. I mean, just think: Tintagel as a symbol of the chivalric ideal, lost in history, and in ruin (both actual and symbolic - and let's not forget his use of the 'Arthur' themes in the 3rd symphony), combined with the presence of the (alas, married) Windflower .... quintessential Elgar inspirational sources!
You might consider this as well then: http://www.signumrecords.com/catalogue/sigcd179/SIGCD179-webbooklet.pdf (http://www.signumrecords.com/catalogue/sigcd179/SIGCD179-webbooklet.pdf). This is a signum pdf manual to the symphonies.

This quote in particular: The composer's annotations for a programme note on the work give mention to the occasional extra-musical inspiration. While these are informative they in no way tell us what any particular passage or movement is actually about and Elgar was less than willing to encourage too much speculation – his gnomic utterances are often about as much help as the composer likely wanted them to be.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 30, 2011, 06:28:02 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2011, 05:54:20 AM
You might consider this as well then: http://www.signumrecords.com/catalogue/sigcd179/SIGCD179-webbooklet.pdf (http://www.signumrecords.com/catalogue/sigcd179/SIGCD179-webbooklet.pdf). This is a signum pdf manual to the symphonies.

Thanks for this.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 30, 2011, 08:32:12 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 30, 2011, 05:44:23 AM
Alan, what is (or, are, as may be) your preferred recording(s) of the Third Symphony?
I only have two:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511-gI9Y1sL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514WnQLzLSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I find both of these excellent. I tend to prefer the Daniel, but maybe that's because it was the first I heard.

But I also have this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515UZjMD01L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Anthony Payne chats his way through his reconstruction. And of course there's Payne's book:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HZF2H24PL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I saw him some months ago as I was walking through the bar in the interval of a concert. Dithered for a moment, then approached and said merely 'thank you very much indeed for rescuing that wonderful symphony', shook his hand, and carried on my way. He looked a bit bemused, but pleased I think.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 30, 2011, 08:41:27 AM
Thanks, Alan!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 30, 2011, 08:48:43 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2011, 05:54:20 AM
This quote in particular: The composer's annotations for a programme note on the work give mention to the occasional extra-musical inspiration. While these are informative they in no way tell us what any particular passage or movement is actually about and Elgar was less than willing to encourage too much speculation – his gnomic utterances are often about as much help as the composer likely wanted them to be.

I suppose it depends on how literalist we want to be. If we're looking for some kind of bar-by-bar parallelism, we won't find it; but as a general overarching concept, I find certain themes (I mention them all the time, so won't reiterate them here) enormously helpful in appreciating Elgar's music in general. It's true that he was inconsistent in what he said; it's true that he liked to be enigmatic in his comments; but I don't think that means he didn't genuinely have in mind some broad-scale parallelism between certain key ideas, and the music. So for instance, we can listen to the works purely as music (in the same way as some English academics approach novels specifically without reference to the biography of the author). And there's a special value in doing that, I've no doubt. But if (as I do) we want to understand the whole picture - 'music PLUS...', if you like - and come as close as possible to the full intention of the composer (admittedly with all the problems that drags along), then these extra-musical references can make enormous differences to the way we approach, and respond to, the work.

Am I just rambling aimlessly? I might be....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 09:12:29 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 30, 2011, 04:29:19 AM
The Davis/LSO performances are certainly excellent, although I think the recording quality lets them down a little. And sometimes I find Davis to be so dreadfully slow, and often you can hear him humming along which may become rather distracting. I think the best of Davis' LSO cycle (including that dragging performance of the Enigma) is actually his recording of Payne's completion of no.3 which is full of excitement. I think I would actually have the Davis/LSO as my favourite performance of this symphony. But for the other two symphonies, I find Davis is far beaten by Solti, Boult (both EMI and Lyrita releases), Handley and Elder.

John, those are absolutely amazing performances, full of passion and beauty. The performance of "In the South" that comes with it is also breathtaking and is among my favourite performances of this piece, alongside Sir Alexander Gibson's excellent Chandos release. I find Solti a little uninspired in this piece actually unfortunately.... Although, you may hear a few little problems with the remastering, such as sudden changes in dynamic, or just a little bit of hissing, but this really does not take away from the excellence of the performance.

And that brings me onto another question, which are your favourite performances of the concert overtures? For all 3 of them, my choice would have to be Sir Alexander Gibson with the Scottish National Orchestra on Chandos. It is such a shame that Gibson was not on such excellent form in his performance of the 2nd symphony which is very dull!
[asin]B00006ANZQ[/asin]

For Cockaigne, I also love BBCSO/A.Davis and LPO/Solti, for In The South I also rate very highly the LPO/Boult (EMI) and for Froissart I really adore the very first recording I had of it which was the Philharmonia/Barbirolli.

Oh yes, what does everyone think of Elgar's early "Froissart"? I personally think it is a wonderful piece...

I am much enjoying all the discussion here!

Have a nice day everyone!

Best Wishes
Daniel

Good to see you discussing this music, Daniel. I know you're passionate about Elgar's music and, thus, you're far more positive regarding his music than I am. I enjoy Elgar's music, but I'm still coming to grips with the music as it doesn't hit me right in the gut like many composers do, but I'm making some progress! Last night, I listened to The Wand of Youth Suites and the Nursery Suite, which I think are some of the greatest things to come from Elgar's pen IMHO. They are light-hearted works and don't present any kind of drama, but the music is so exquisitely crafted, tuneful, and there are some absolute gorgeous slow movements in these works that you would enjoy. Dream Children was also a beautiful work. All of these works were featured on a James Judd/New Zealand Symphony recording on Naxos that I plan on revisiting soon.

Honestly, I don't think it gets much better than Barbirolli in Elgar's symphonies. He has the full measure of this music. I haven't heard the Boult on EMI, but the Boult on Lyrita is also stunningly played with real conviction and authority. The Sinopoli Elgar recordings are also worth checking out if you haven't already, Daniel. He performed a killer In the South that will knock your socks off. I never cared much about Solti's Elgar recordings. I prefer Solti in Bartok and Wagner.



Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 30, 2011, 09:22:04 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 09:12:29 AM
. . . Dream Children was also a beautiful work.

Heard that for the first time recently, as I make my gradual way through the Andrew Davis Elgar box-let. A minor work, but lovely, indeed.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2011, 09:23:32 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 30, 2011, 08:48:43 AM
I suppose it depends on how literalist we want to be. If we're looking for some kind of bar-by-bar parallelism, we won't find it; but as a general overarching concept, I find certain themes (I mention them all the time, so won't reiterate them here) enormously helpful in appreciating Elgar's music in general. It's true that he was inconsistent in what he said; it's true that he liked to be enigmatic in his comments; but I don't think that means he didn't genuinely have in mind some broad-scale parallelism between certain key ideas, and the music. So for instance, we can listen to the works purely as music (in the same way as some English academics approach novels specifically without reference to the biography of the author). And there's a special value in doing that, I've no doubt. But if (as I do) we want to understand the whole picture - 'music PLUS...', if you like - and come as close as possible to the full intention of the composer (admittedly with all the problems that drags along), then these extra-musical references can make enormous differences to the way we approach, and respond to, the work.

Am I just rambling aimlessly? I might be....
Maybe, but who cares! We're having fun! And besides, I think it's allowed where Elgar is concerned! :)

Seriously, no - not rambling at all. I think the fact that it is not clear is what makes it so fascinating. I'm not quite as convinced as you are, but your thoughts on the matter are interesting (and different). And if they are helpful and important to you in understanding the music, then following where they lead is worthwhile.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 30, 2011, 09:27:42 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 30, 2011, 08:32:12 AM

I find both of these excellent. I tend to prefer the Daniel, but maybe that's because it was the first I heard.

I saw him some months ago as I was walking through the bar in the interval of a concert. Dithered for a moment, then approached and said merely 'thank you very much indeed for rescuing that wonderful symphony', shook his hand, and carried on my way. He looked a bit bemused, but pleased I think.

The Daniel was also the first that I heard, but maybe I find the LSO Davis recording slightly more exciting in the climaxes. However both are excellent, and both are inexpensive, so you don't have to choose between them, buy them both! ;)

There are two recordings of the 3rd symphony I do not own, and these are the Hickox and the Otaka. Does anyone own these? If so, please tell me your opinion!

How wonderful that you shook his hand! It must have been great to meet him. Not often do I get to meet musicians at concerts :( But not so long ago I was sitting very near to Alan Gilbert at a BBC Prom! And another time I was standing only a few meters away from Vladimir Jurowski, didn't get to talk to them though. :( It is my ambition to be a conductor and composer, so hopefully I'll meet many musicians then! ;)

Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 09:12:29 AM
Good to see you discussing this music, Daniel. I know you're passionate about Elgar's music and, thus, you're far more positive regarding his music than I am. I enjoy Elgar's music, but I'm still coming to grips with the music as it doesn't hit me right in the gut like many composers do, but I'm making some progress! Last night, I listened to The Wand of Youth Suites and the Nursery Suite, which I think are some of the greatest things to come from Elgar's pen IMHO. They are light-hearted works and don't present any kind of drama, but the music is so exquisitely crafted, tuneful, and there are some absolute gorgeous slow movements in these works that you would enjoy. Dream Children was also a beautiful work. All of these works were featured on a James Judd/New Zealand Symphony recording on Naxos that I plan on revisiting soon.

Honestly, I don't think it gets much better than Barbirolli in Elgar's symphonies. He has the full measure of this music. I haven't heard the Boult on EMI, but the Boult on Lyrita is also stunningly played with real conviction and authority. The Sinopoli Elgar recordings are also worth checking out if you haven't already, Daniel. He performed a killer In the South that will knock your socks off. I never cared much about Solti's Elgar recordings. I prefer Solti in Bartok and Wagner.

Nice to see you here as well, John! :) haha ;) I absolutely adore the Wand of Youth Suites and Nursery Suite! So much wonderful music. I think the Wand of Youth Suites would be in my top 10 Elgar pieces, don't you just adore the tuneful, delightful movements such as "Little Bells" and "Fountain Dance" and the excitement and thrill in the two finales! "Dream Children" is such a beautiful piece, I agree! When I was on holiday in Italy, I would listen to that every day to start my morning while overlooking the beautiful view of Lake Como we had from our balcony. It is such a beautiful piece, so melodic and charming, and yet so simple! I also own the Judd naxos release you talk about, it is certainly excellent. A must for any Elgar fan! As you seem to like the Wand of Youth suites/nursery suite/Dream Children, I will recommend this cd on Chandos which has all three! :)

[asin]B000OMCIVI[/asin]

I am sure you will love the Boult EMI, may I also suggest Sir Mark Elder's excellent releases with the Halle?

Have a nice day everyone!
Daniel
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 30, 2011, 09:30:02 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 30, 2011, 09:27:42 AM
The Daniel was also the first that I heard, but maybe I find the LSO Davis recording slightly more exciting in the climaxes. However both are excellent, and both are inexpensive, so you don't have to choose between them, buy them both! ;)

I did find a dirt-cheap copy of the Daniel, so . . . it's on its way.  For the longest time, since I was still at arm's length with the First and Second, my thoughts did not turn at all to the Third. But now, that's all changed . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 09:32:06 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 30, 2011, 09:22:04 AM
Heard that for the first time recently, as I make my gradual way through the Andrew Davis Elgar box-let. A minor work, but lovely, indeed.

You could say that all of those works I listed in my post above are minor, but sometimes minor works are where the true gold is found. ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 09:48:48 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 30, 2011, 09:27:42 AMNice to see you here as well, John! :) haha ;) I absolutely adore the Wand of Youth Suites and Nursery Suite! So much wonderful music. I think the Wand of Youth Suites would be in my top 10 Elgar pieces, don't you just adore the tuneful, delightful movements such as "Little Bells" and "Fountain Dance" and the excitement and thrill in the two finales! "Dream Children" is such a beautiful piece, I agree! When I was on holiday in Italy, I would listen to that every day to start my morning while overlooking the beautiful view of Lake Como we had from our balcony. It is such a beautiful piece, so melodic and charming, and yet so simple! I also own the Judd naxos release you talk about, it is certainly excellent. A must for any Elgar fan! As you seem to like the Wand of Youth suites/nursery suite/Dream Children, I will recommend this cd on Chandos which has all three! :)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000OMCIVI.01.L.jpg)

I am sure you will love the Boult EMI, may I also suggest Sir Mark Elder's excellent releases with the Halle?

Have a nice day everyone!
Daniel

Thanks for the recommendation, Daniel. I'll have to checkout that Chandos recording. I have a 2-CD set of Bryden Thomson conducting Elgar's symphonies and some other works, but I haven't even heard it yet. Have you heard this set?

[asin]B0007SK9ME[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on August 30, 2011, 10:19:46 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2011, 12:44:30 AM
And this brings me to the second symphony. I think all this talk about it being 'harder' does it a dis-service.

I realize the conversation has moved way on past this (in the usual very interesting ways).  But, I did want to clarify something, since I'm clearly one who has expressed the idea that I haven't yet come to appreciate the 2nd.

As I've gotten older, if there is one thing about my reactions to music that has changed, it's this:

I try really hard not to have fixed ideas toward particular pieces - as in "I'll never get this!"

Instead, I try to cultivate the attitude, "I haven't gotten this yet."

Not only is it more honest, it also give me a lot to look forward to.   :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 30, 2011, 10:26:10 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 09:48:48 AM
Thanks for the recommendation, Daniel. I'll have to checkout that Chandos recording. I have a 2-CD set of Bryden Thomson conducting Elgar's symphonies and some other works, but I haven't even heard it yet. Have you heard this set?

[asin]B0007SK9ME[/asin]

Pleasure. :) That is a rather good set, yes. The LPO are on top form here and give a beautiful performance, although Thomson's tempi are certainly on the more broad side, which is not always a good thing. I am not sure how you prefer your Elgar, different people prefer the interpretation in different ways. I prefer allegros to be more on the lively side and for the slower sections to be broad enough to allow the beauty of the music to speak. Why I like Solti! As you say you like Barbirolli, you probably like your Elgar a little broader generally, so the Thomson recordings should be good for you. I may point out that Thomson's performance of the 1st movement of the 2nd symphony is a whole 5 minutes longer than the Solti, and this, for me, is just a tad too slow...
Good performances nevertheless! Plus it comes with one of my favourite performances of the Froissart Overture which I enjoy very much, not sure what you think of this work, but I love it! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 10:34:30 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 30, 2011, 10:26:10 AM
Pleasure. :) That is a rather good set, yes. The LPO are on top form here and give a beautiful performance, although Thomson's tempi are certainly on the more broad side, which is not always a good thing. I am not sure how you prefer your Elgar, different people prefer the interpretation in different ways. I prefer allegros to be more on the lively side and for the slower sections to be broad enough to allow the beauty of the music to speak. Why I like Solti! As you say you like Barbirolli, you probably like your Elgar a little broader generally, so the Thomson recordings should be good for you. I may point out that Thomson's performance of the 1st movement of the 2nd symphony is a whole 5 minutes longer than the Solti, and this, for me, is just a tad too slow...
Good performances nevertheless! Plus it comes with one of my favourite performances of the Froissart Overture which I enjoy very much, not sure what you think of this work, but I love it! :)

Thanks for the feedback about the Thomson, Daniel. What's the deal with The Sanguine Fan? What's this work like? I never heard it. Isn't it a ballet or something? It's marked Op. 81, which means that it's probably one of the last works he composed.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on August 30, 2011, 10:49:32 AM
This thread has become so busy I barely have time to read all your posts.  ???

That's also why I am so passive here. I am afraid to say stupid things if I don't think carefully what I say about Elgar and his music. I simply don't have enough time for that. I have 70 minutes before it's 11pm in Finland and time to sleep...

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on August 30, 2011, 10:58:25 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 10:34:30 AM
What's the deal with The Sanguine Fan? What's this work like? I never heard it. Isn't it a ballet or something? It's marked Op. 81, which means that it's probably one of the last works he composed.

Yes, it's a ballet but short one. Nice piece.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2011, 11:00:57 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 30, 2011, 10:49:32 AM
This thread has become so busy I barely have time to read all your posts.  ???

That's also why I am so passive here. I am afraid to say stupid things if I don't think carefully what I say about Elgar and his music. I simply don't have enough time for that. I have 70 minutes before it's 11pm in Finland and time to sleep...
Not possible. Don't hesitate. We're all on the same side as Elgar! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 30, 2011, 11:09:34 AM
FWIW, I took a negative impression of The Sanguine Fan from the Naxos release . . . I should be glad to erase that, though.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 11:17:34 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 30, 2011, 11:09:34 AM
FWIW, I took a negative impression of The Sanguine Fan from the Naxos release . . . I should be glad to erase that, though.

I'll have to listen to at some point.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 11:17:58 AM
What does everybody think of Falstaff?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 30, 2011, 11:22:33 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 11:17:58 AM
What does everybody think of Falstaff?

Love it, though (again, as with The Sanguine Fan) the Naxos release (a disc which I bought in order to get to know Falstaff) made me think none too well of it.  Much, much better is the Elder/Hallé recording.  (I haven't yet listened to the Falstaff in the A. Davis reissue.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 30, 2011, 11:25:46 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2011, 09:23:32 AM
I'm not quite as convinced as you are, but your thoughts on the matter are interesting (and different). And if they are helpful and important to you in understanding the music, then following where they lead is worthwhile.
I think one problem arises because when we have these discussions, we tend to think we're talking about the same thing - but we're probably not because we're each searching for subtly (or not so subtly) different outcomes. So I might suggest that it's not so much a matter of whether you or I or anyone else 'is convinced' of a particular idea; it's more a matter of what kind of result we're seeking. In my case, I find Elgar the man entirely fascinating, and there's a continual interplay between listening to the music to understand the man better, and learning about the man in order to understand the music better. That really is a very different kind of enquiry, compared with someone who sits down and listens to the 2nd symphony knowing nothing (and wanting to know nothing) about the composer of it. I think what I'm suggesting is that to a large extent we get differently nuanced answers because we're asking differently nuanced questions.

It's a bit like asking why Monet painted outdoors. One might reply (a) because the invention of tubed paint made it so much easier to do so; or (b) because he was interested in recording light effects. Both answers are true; but different questioners will get differing degrees of satisfaction from each of the two answers according to what their hopes were at the outset.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 11:27:34 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 30, 2011, 11:22:33 AM
Love it, though (again, as with The Sanguine Fan) the Naxos release (a disc which I bought in order to get to know Falstaff) made me think none too well of it.  Much, much better is the Elder/Hallé recording.  (I haven't yet listened to the Falstaff in the A. Davis reissue.)

Yeah, I always liked Falstaff. I think I only have a few performances of it, but my favorite is probably Barbirolli's on EMI, though the A. Davis is quite good as well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on August 30, 2011, 11:34:38 AM
I have always felt that Elgar's 2nd symphony is about how Elgar felt the nation was "walking blindly" into a war, how Elgar felt frustrated about this and how he wanted to give hope that things would go well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 30, 2011, 11:34:53 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on August 30, 2011, 10:49:32 AM
This thread has become so busy I barely have time to read all your posts.  ???

I know the feeling. I can't remember a time when so many people had so many interesting things to say about Elgar and his music!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 30, 2011, 12:47:28 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 10:34:30 AM
Thanks for the feedback about the Thomson, Daniel. What's the deal with The Sanguine Fan? What's this work like? I never heard it. Isn't it a ballet or something? It's marked Op. 81, which means that it's probably one of the last works he composed.

Well, the Sanguine Fan is a one act ballet which was written to raise money for wartime charities. Well, yes, it was a late work. In fact I believe it was written a year before his "last major work", the cello concerto. It's not exactly my favourite of his works, but still contains some beautiful music, it just seems to be lacking that extra bundle of inspiration that is present in the symphonies/concertos etc.

Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2011, 11:17:58 AM
What does everybody think of Falstaff?

Absolutely love it! So much exciting music! Not as beautiful as his other works, but so much amazing music! hmm... the A.Davis/BBCSO would be my second choice. It seems to lack a bit of enthusiasm from the orchestra compared to Sir Mark Elder's thrilling performance with the Halle. I thoroughly recommend this performance, certainly the most exciting I have heard to date! :) I have not heard Barbirolli's performance, nor the Solti, Mackerras or Barenboim yet...

Have a nice evening,
Daniel

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 30, 2011, 04:48:00 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 30, 2011, 11:22:33 AM
Love it, though (again, as with The Sanguine Fan) the Naxos release (a disc which I bought in order to get to know Falstaff) made me think none too well of it.  Much, much better is the Elder/Hallé recording.  (I haven't yet listened to the Falstaff in the A. Davis reissue.)

Agree, the Naxos Falstaff is the only recording I own, love the music but felt that there could be a much better performance, Elder/Halle will hopefully soon make its way to my collection.

Speaking of collection...

[asin]B000000A9N[/asin]

...just landed today, thanks to this thread! As soon as my son goes to bed I'm planing a listen.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 30, 2011, 11:27:15 PM
Funny thing about Falstaff. I know it's highly regarded; I can hear some of its qualities myself; but in all these years I've never grown to love it, always feel reluctant to listen to it, and then when I do and it's all over, I think something like: 'Right then. Duty done for another year.'

I've no idea why this is. I suppose music is like conversation in that respect: some conversations can be acknowledged to be very worthy and full of wisdom, wit and erudition, but simply don't interest us.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 31, 2011, 12:24:30 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 30, 2011, 11:25:46 AM
I think one problem arises because when we have these discussions, we tend to think we're talking about the same thing - but we're probably not because we're each searching for subtly (or not so subtly) different outcomes. So I might suggest that it's not so much a matter of whether you or I or anyone else 'is convinced' of a particular idea; it's more a matter of what kind of result we're seeking. In my case, I find Elgar the man entirely fascinating, and there's a continual interplay between listening to the music to understand the man better, and learning about the man in order to understand the music better. That really is a very different kind of enquiry, compared with someone who sits down and listens to the 2nd symphony knowing nothing (and wanting to know nothing) about the composer of it. I think what I'm suggesting is that to a large extent we get differently nuanced answers because we're asking differently nuanced questions.

It's a bit like asking why Monet painted outdoors. One might reply (a) because the invention of tubed paint made it so much easier to do so; or (b) because he was interested in recording light effects. Both answers are true; but different questioners will get differing degrees of satisfaction from each of the two answers according to what their hopes were at the outset.
We are coming at this a bit differently and I think the only major difference we have is how much these 'extraneous' things have an impact on the understanding of the music. I would agree with you that knowing a composer can only help understand the music. No disagreements there. In the case of the second symphony, I am not sure how much some of external issues swirling around help to understand it (so the poem at the beginning, referemce to Tintagel, etc.). I certainly see no harm in exploring them and speculating. But I am not sure how much it adds in the end. This seems to be the point our views diverge - and that is ok. I am still open to it, and if nothing else, it creates some interesting avenues of discussion.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on August 31, 2011, 06:32:37 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 30, 2011, 11:27:15 PM
Funny thing about Falstaff. I know it's highly regarded; I can hear some of its qualities myself; but in all these years I've never grown to love it, always feel reluctant to listen to it, and then when I do and it's all over, I think something like: 'Right then. Duty done for another year.'

It's Elgar and it sounds Elgar so I don't have difficulties enjoying it but Falstaff isn't among the best works of Elgar for me either.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 31, 2011, 06:33:34 AM
FWIW, I came to like Falstaff much quicker than I warmed to the symphonies.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on August 31, 2011, 06:39:37 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2011, 06:33:34 AM
FWIW, I came to like Falstaff much quicker than I warmed to the symphonies.

Yes, I know. I was blown away by the symphonies first time I heard them. Further listening revealed even more greatness for me.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on August 31, 2011, 10:13:48 AM
I need some opinions on this.  I want to give some observations on my project of listening to Elgar chronologically.  I'm experimenting with blogging on another site on this topic (we'll see how that goes).
I wanted to post this information in a thread on this site, but I don't know whether to do it on this thread or if I should create a new one.  The advantage of a new thread would be that it would be less disruptive.  I'm not anticipating much response to these posts, and they might just break the flow of the thread if I put them here.

On the other hand, putting them on this thread would tend to increase the post count for Elgar, which some people might think is a good idea.

At any rate, below is my first post.  Comments are welcome.  And, if you think I should move it to a new thread (or just shut up altogether), let me know.

*
*


In the TV adaptation of P G Wodehouse's story "Jeeves and the Song of Songs", Bertie Wooster's friend Tuppy thinks he's fallen in love with Cora Bellinger, a noted soprano.  We are first given a glimpse of the somewhat unprepossessing La Bellinger as she sings to piano accompaniment in the home of the weekend host of Bertie, Tuppy and several other guests.  After the performance, Tuppy tells Bertie of his passion for the singer and says, "What a wonderful...noise...she makes, Bertie." 

It's a scene that involuntarily replays in my mind whenever I hear vocal parlor music.  It's what I thought of when I listened to a recording of Elgar's first known composition, the song "The Language of Flowers", which he wrote at the tender age of fourteen as a birthday present for his sister Lucy.  The poem that provided the lyrics for this, what might be considered rather cloyingly sentimental piece, was written by an American botanist and poet James Gates Percival.

The music Elgar came up with to set this poem reminded me a bit of Stephen Foster's.  It brought back to me the Nonesuch LP I used to own with the late mezzo Jan DeGaetani singing Foster's songs.  I would have liked to have heard how Elgar's song would have sounded in DeGaetani's slightly more understated style. 

At any rate, Elgar's melodic gift can already be sensed to an oh-so-limited degree in this piece of juvenilia.   I could listen to it much more appreciatively if I could just get the image of Cora Bellinger out of my head.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on August 31, 2011, 10:21:13 AM
Not any help, but . . . I love Wodehouse!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 31, 2011, 11:06:43 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 31, 2011, 12:24:30 AM
I think the only major difference we have is how much these 'extraneous' things have an impact on the understanding of the music.
I've not found it easy to be clear about this - I'll try again. What I'm wondering about is whether we all mean the same thing when we talk about 'the understanding of the music'. I'm almost certain we don't. At one end of the spectrum (let's call it 'A') will be those who are interested primarily in the score and the purely musical interpretation of it. At the other end (let's call it 'B') are those who are primarily interested in the associations and emotional connections that they make when they listen. Most of us are somewhere in between. I'm closer to B than to A. I suspect you're closer to A; certainly closer than I am, I imagine.

My point is that where we sit on the spectrum determines what we each consider to be a proper 'understanding' of the music (by 'proper' I mean one that satisfies us, each, as individuals). An extreme 'A' person would reject all the associations in, say, the Enigma Variations, as being non-musical and adding nothing to the understanding of the music. But an extreme 'B' person would think such an approach to leave far too much out to be considered adequate. So the expression 'understanding the music' drags all sorts of baggage along with it, and we each have our own subtly (or not so subtly) different takes, even when we think we're talking about the same thing.

Tell me that Elgar made a Tintagel association with the 2nd symphony, and I simply won't listen to it in the same way. I may not be able to describe how, exactly, but I'll be continually on the lookout for for echoes of chivalric motives, maybe a touch of sea, and maybe also a touch of Windfloweriness because of the bits of biography I know. If I don't find them clearly present, I'll likely feel that maybe I don't 'understand' the symphony properly yet, and keep trying, and so on - in a way that wouldn't in the least trouble someone who didn't know that information, or who disregarded it. So even if I can't point to this bit or that bit and label it convincingly 'Tintagel' (and I can't), still it affects my expectations, and my listening, and consequently my 'understanding' of the music, even though to an 'A' type person this would seem quite absurd.

Oh gosh I'm sorry. I had no idea that this post would become so laboured, and I wouldn't have started it if I'd known! But now I've done it, I may as well leave it here for passing travellers to muse upon, and perhaps thereby drift into a well-earned restful snooze before continuing their journey.




Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 31, 2011, 11:18:17 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2011, 06:33:34 AM
FWIW, I came to like Falstaff much quicker than I warmed to the symphonies.

While I like the actual musical content of Falstaff, I have the usual tone-poem problem with it: the story it's supposed to illustrate gets in the way of my enjoyment (because I'm thinking "oh, the music is representing that now"). And the Falstaff scenario is very specific, illustrating certain scenes from Shakespeare. If it were a more nebulous "personality study" I don't think I'd have that problem.

For what it's worth, I think the opening several minutes, illustrating the Falstaff-Prince Hal clash of personalities, are magnificent and I can enjoy them on that level. They play to one of Elgar's natural strengths, namely the contrast between the outwardly confident and the timid or uneasy.

Strangely, I don't have a similar problem with Strauss' Don Quixote, despite its being just as literary and specific as the Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on August 31, 2011, 11:36:44 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 31, 2011, 11:06:43 AM
At one end of the spectrum (let's call it 'A') will be those who are interested primarily in the score and the purely musical interpretation of it. At the other end (let's call it 'B') are those who are primarily interested in the associations and emotional connections that they make when they listen. Most of us are somewhere in between.

I'm really in the middle on this.  I definitely prefer to know the associations, if there are any, between real life and the composition in the composer's mind at the time of composing. 

On the other hand, I often find that a piece of music that moves me creates its own associations in my mind independent of the composer's thoughts.

A good example is Schumann's Fantasy in C.  The work was dedicated to Lizst, supposedly modelled on the life of Beethoven, but the first movement, in Schumann's own words was a long lament for Clara.  I love this work, but when I listen to it, I don't think of Lizst or Beethoven, and only rarely think of Clara.  As with most really moving works, it creates inside of me a kind of amorphous emotional cloud.  I can't define what it means to me or where it transports me - but transport me it does..somewhere.

On the other hand, after seeing Ken Russell's Elgar TV show years ago on PBS, I simply can not think of the Cello Concerto without the images of those trees and that peculiar kind of sadness they conveyed to me.

In a way, it's kind of fun that as one individual I don't have just one way to experience the joys of music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 31, 2011, 11:46:00 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 31, 2011, 11:06:43 AM
I've not found it easy to be clear about this - I'll try again. What I'm wondering about is whether we all mean the same thing when we talk about 'the understanding of the music'. I'm almost certain we don't. At one end of the spectrum (let's call it 'A') will be those who are interested primarily in the score and the purely musical interpretation of it. At the other end (let's call it 'B') are those who are primarily interested in the associations and emotional connections that they make when they listen. Most of us are somewhere in between. I'm closer to B than to A. I suspect you're closer to A; certainly closer than I am, I imagine.

My point is that where we sit on the spectrum determines what we each consider to be a proper 'understanding' of the music (by 'proper' I mean one that satisfies us, each, as individuals). An extreme 'A' person would reject all the associations in, say, the Enigma Variations, as being non-musical and adding nothing to the understanding of the music. But an extreme 'B' person would think such an approach to leave far too much out to be considered adequate. So the expression 'understanding the music' drags all sorts of baggage along with it, and we each have our own subtly (or not so subtly) different takes, even when we think we're talking about the same thing.

Tell me that Elgar made a Tintagel association with the 2nd symphony, and I simply won't listen to it in the same way. I may not be able to describe how, exactly, but I'll be continually on the lookout for for echoes of chivalric motives, maybe a touch of sea, and maybe also a touch of Windfloweriness because of the bits of biography I know. If I don't find them clearly present, I'll likely feel that maybe I don't 'understand' the symphony properly yet, and keep trying, and so on - in a way that wouldn't in the least trouble someone who didn't know that information, or who disregarded it. So even if I can't point to this bit or that bit and label it convincingly 'Tintagel' (and I can't), still it affects my expectations, and my listening, and consequently my 'understanding' of the music, even though to an 'A' type person this would seem quite absurd.

Oh gosh I'm sorry. I had no idea that this post would become so laboured, and I wouldn't have started it if I'd known! But now I've done it, I may as well leave it here for passing travellers to muse upon, and perhaps thereby drift into a well-earned restful snooze before continuing their journey.
I wouldn't keep responding if I was nodding off in the middle. Trust me on that!

I think I must be a bit more the other end of the spectrum as you say, but not all the way at the end (I hope). I view musical understanding as something of a moving target. One day. I'm sure I've got it. The next, I wonder what I heard the previous day, because I just don't see it the next (for example - a real one too, though not with Elgar).

I look at it like a puzzle. I don't know what 'picture' I am trying to make, but the music represent the pieces. These 'pieces' start to fall into place as I listen. Information like the Tintagel (for example) won't bother me if I can't fit it into my understanding or the puzzle. In this, you are right, I won't worry about it. But not because I think it unimportant, but because I think it a relatively small clue that can be figured out without it. While I gather you will think there is something missing in your understanding (or that you haven't quite grasped it yet). 

Perhaps an example would help? I the 2nd movement of the second symphony, well there is disagreement over whether this dedicated to Edward or someone else or whether it is dedicated to anyone. For me, knowing it could be dedicated to someone could add an element of understanding, but here knowing Elgar is sufficient to gain the understanding that Elgar wants to express here, and that is clearly sorrow, sadness, and a funereal atmosphere. For you, I gather, it adds some immediacy or brings the music closer to your heart (or something along these lines) by considering the potential story line that you feel best addresses what you know of Elgar, his life, his music, his feelings when he may have written this, etc. I'm guessing a bit, and suspect that I am not being nuanced enough, but that is what I think you are saying. Both of us may feel the grief here and be equally touched by it, but the process of getting 'under the skin' of the music may be different. I think the result is probably similar, but the process is not.

I feel I have taken a risk in telling you what you think and feel, but I thought it might be helpful in case I am way off base.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on August 31, 2011, 12:31:09 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 31, 2011, 11:46:00 AM
Information like the Tintagel (for example) won't bother me if I can't fit it into my understanding or the puzzle. ... While I gather you will think there is something missing in your understanding (or that you haven't quite grasped it yet).
Yes that's exactly how I tend to respond.

QuoteIn the 2nd movement of the second symphony, well there is disagreement over whether this dedicated to Edward or someone else or whether it is dedicated to anyone. For me, knowing it could be dedicated to someone could add an element of understanding, but here knowing Elgar is sufficient to gain the understanding that Elgar wants to express here, and that is clearly sorrow, sadness, and a funereal atmosphere. For you, I gather, it adds some immediacy or brings the music closer to your heart (or something along these lines) by considering the potential story line that you feel best addresses what you know of Elgar, his life, his music, his feelings when he may have written this, etc. I'm guessing a bit, and suspect that I am not being nuanced enough, but that is what I think you are saying. Both of us may feel the grief here and be equally touched by it, but the process of getting 'under the skin' of the music may be different. I think the result is probably similar, but the process is not.

That's pretty close, actually. And it's virtually unique to Elgar, I think. I don't play this game (it's a serious sort of game but with some fun content) with any other composer I can think of. I do it with Constable though (in painting) to some extent. PreRaphaelites all the time. Impressionists too to some extent.

Ha! This is all really about temperament in the listener, isn't it? See how selective I am: I don't listen to Mozart thinking about the biography at all!, and don't feel the need. When I listen to the Ring, Wagner the man never enters my thoughts. Seems to me that I'm making up the rules as I go along, aren't I? Well that's OK I guess. It's a case of following the path of greatest enrichment, and since I'm the only one required to follow the rules I make, then all's well. In the case of Elgar, my involvement with the man is so thorough and entangled that there's really no hope of listening to his music unaffected by what I know of him.

I was at the Three Choirs a few weeks ago to hear Caractacus at Worcester Cathedral (now there's a work you don't hear performed every day). And my preparation for that notable event, earlier in the afternoon, was not to look at the score, or read the libretto, but to climb up to the British Camp in the Malverns, where legend associates Caractacus (which inspired Elgar to write the cantata), and where I know he took Dorabella, talking the story through with her as they walked. You see how it is. I can't escape this particular narrative-based perspective. Not, of course, that I want to!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 31, 2011, 12:49:01 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 31, 2011, 12:31:09 PM
 
Yes that's exactly how I tend to respond.

That's pretty close, actually. And it's virtually unique to Elgar, I think. I don't play this game (it's a serious sort of game but with some fun content) with any other composer I can think of. I do it with Constable though (in painting) to some extent. PreRaphaelites all the time. Impressionists too to some extent.

Ha! This is all really about temperament in the listener, isn't it? See how selective I am: I don't listen to Mozart thinking about the biography at all!, and don't feel the need. When I listen to the Ring, Wagner the man never enters my thoughts. Seems to me that I'm making up the rules as I go along, aren't I? Well that's OK I guess. It's a case of following the path of greatest enrichment, and since I'm the only one required to follow the rules I make, then all's well. In the case of Elgar, my involvement with the man is so thorough and entangled that there's really no hope of listening to his music unaffected by what I know of him.

I was at the Three Choirs a few weeks ago to hear Caractacus at Worcester Cathedral (now there's a work you don't hear performed every day). And my preparation for that notable event, earlier in the afternoon, was not to look at the score, or read the libretto, but to climb up to the British Camp in the Malverns, where legend associates Caractacus (which inspired Elgar to write the cantata), and where I know he took Dorabella, talking the story through with her as they walked. You see how it is. I can't escape this particular narrative-based perspective. Not, of course, that I want to!
I love Caractacus (based on limited hearings). This is a recent acquistion for me (only listened to it once so far), but I have enjoyed it tremendously. It's going to take some time to take it in. But boy, are you lucky to have seen it live! Wowee! That's just awesome! It might be some time before you get another chance at it too.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 31, 2011, 12:55:39 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2011, 06:33:34 AM
FWIW, I came to like Falstaff much quicker than I warmed to the symphonies.

Interesting! Well, it certainly takes a very different mood than the symphonies, but is still Elgarian in pretty much every way! It is not my favourite Elgar work exactly, if I was to make a list of my top 10 favourite Elgar works it would probably just be outside the list.... I think that work lacks the beauty that makes the symphonies/concertos so special. But being a tone poem it obviously has to be depicting the story, which is not exactly a romance! ;) It is interesting that someone has mentioned Strauss' Don Quixote here, as I very much see Falstaff as the "Don Quixote" of Elgar's output, in the way that it is much different than so many of his other works! :)

Have a nice evening everyone!
Daniel
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 01, 2011, 12:01:10 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 31, 2011, 12:49:01 PM
I love Caractacus (based on limited hearings). This is a recent acquistion for me (only listened to it once so far), but I have enjoyed it tremendously. It's going to take some time to take it in. But boy, are you lucky to have seen it live! Wowee! That's just awesome! It might be some time before you get another chance at it too.

It's an old favourite of mine, and I never actually expected to be able to hear it performed live! Admittedly, it's a flawed work in some ways: the drama doesn't seem to work too well and I find the music is patchy - genuinely magnificent at times, but overall not-quite-making-it (trying to do more than he was able at that time, perhaps). I think of it as Elgar teetering on the brink of greatness, flexing his muscles just before coming to full bloom (ooh look Mum, a mixed metaphor!) in Enigma.

But there are some great tunes, some fine orchestral work, and some really splendid moments. People make a fuss about the jingoistically-worded finale, but my goodness what a tune, and what a hair-raising, blood-pumping, and larger-than-life conclusion it provides. For those few minutes, I say to heck with political correctness. Just let me wallow.

The conductor at Worcester was Andrew Davis, and I think it was a fine performance. I say 'think', because we had seats in one of the aisles with a 'restricted view' (though 'no view at all' would have been more accurate), assisted by big TV screens attached to the columns; and the acoustics weren't great, tucked away in there; and there was a certain feeling of not being allowed into a party but permitted to watch it from an adjacent room, along with some other only-partly-privileged folk, on TV. I take some consolation from the knowledge that Elgar had a favourite spot in Worcester Cathedral somewhere - bell tower, was it? - where he could lie on the floor with eyes closed and listen without the distraction of having to watch the proceedings. I guess he'd have turned the TVs off!

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 02, 2011, 07:45:44 AM
So this past May (has it already been posted about here?) EMI released The Elgar Edition: The Complete Electrical Recordings of Sir Edward Elgar, nine discs. Almost for Alan's discussion of In the South, alone, I'd be interested : )
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on September 02, 2011, 09:25:26 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2011, 07:45:44 AM
So this past May (has it already been posted about here?) EMI released The Elgar Edition: The Complete Electrical Recordings of Sir Edward Elgar, nine discs. Almost for Alan's discussion of In the South, alone, I'd be interested : )

Thanks to all the Elgar-love stirred up by this thread I ordered that box last week, and am eagerly awaiting delivery (obviously I have some of its contents already, but the whole thing looked unmissable)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 02, 2011, 10:17:17 AM
Quote from: Luke on September 02, 2011, 09:25:26 AM
Thanks to all the Elgar-love stirred up by this thread I ordered that box last week, and am eagerly awaiting delivery (obviously I have some of its contents already, but the whole thing looked unmissable)

I did, indeed, pull ye trigger on this to-day, Luke . . . as it's shipping from the UK, I've quite a wait, but I am sure it will be well worth it!

Meanwhile: today the Chandos Spirit of England landed (listening to it e'en now!) and the Mordkovitch vn/pf disc . . . so I'll have lots of Elgar to enjoy this (US) holliday weekend
: )
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 02, 2011, 10:48:24 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2011, 07:45:44 AM
So this past May (has it already been posted about here?) EMI released The Elgar Edition: The Complete Electrical Recordings of Sir Edward Elgar, nine discs. Almost for Alan's discussion of In the South, alone, I'd be interested : )

I was in the same position as Luke. I had almost all of it scattered about on odd CDs here and there, as I'd been able to find them - but the prospect of having everything together in a single box (and a handsome box too, gentlefolks) was just too good to miss when it appeared earlier this year.

Gosh, it reminds me of some golden mornings many years ago, when Radio 3 broadcast an hour's worth of Elgar's recordings every day for a week, at some ungodly hour  (or so it seemed). I got up early every day just to listen to them. That was the first time I'd heard them. Could hardly believe it. First, I could hardly believe the high quality of the recordings; second, I could hardly believe this really was him; and third, I could hardly believe how different he sounded to some of the modern recordings I'd been used to. So many of them were taken much faster than I expected; some of the more languidly lingerish bits were swept along with no nonsense and no shilly-shallying, almost - one might wonder - as if he were impatient.

It's been suggested that many of the fast speeds were caused by the need to squash specific sections into separate sides of a 78, but that theory has been pretty comprehensively demolished (see, for example, the booklet in the box.)  Fact is, Elgar seems to have conducted most of his work with a sense of urgency because that was how he wanted it. Certainly it was very interesting when, a few days ago, I compared Andrew Davis's account of In the South with Elgar's, and discovered just how energetic Elgar made the music sound.

Addendum I wonder, Karl, if you already know or have Beatrice Harrison's recording of the cello concerto? If you don't, or haven't, it's in that box: Elgar's regular soloist of choice. 'Give it to 'em, Beatrice,' he said on one occasion as they went into the concert hall. 'Don't worry about the notes or anything. Give 'em the spirit.'
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on September 02, 2011, 08:33:07 PM
Landed today:

(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/000/569/0000056981_350.jpg)

Already listening to In the South. Absolutely gorgeous! Boult was just so damn good at conducting Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on September 02, 2011, 08:51:24 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on September 02, 2011, 10:48:24 AM


Gosh, it reminds me of some golden mornings many years ago, when Radio 3 broadcast an hour's worth of Elgar's recordings every day for a week, at some ungodly hour  (or so it seemed). I got up early every day just to listen to them. That was the first time I'd heard them. Could hardly believe it. First, I could hardly believe the high quality of the recordings; second, I could hardly believe this really was him; and third, I could hardly believe how different he sounded to some of the modern recordings I'd been used to. So many of them were taken much faster than I expected; some of the more languidly lingerish bits were swept along with no nonsense and no shilly-shallying, almost - one might wonder - as if he were impatient.

It's been suggested that many of the fast speeds were caused by the need to squash specific sections into separate sides of a 78, but that theory has been pretty comprehensively demolished (see, for example, the booklet in the box.)  Fact is, Elgar seems to have conducted most of his work with a sense of urgency because that was how he wanted it. Certainly it was very interesting when, a few days ago, I compared Andrew Davis's account of In the South with Elgar's, and discovered just how energetic Elgar made the music sound.


I don't remember who on GMG made the observation, and don't remember which composer was specifically being discussed at the time, but someone once commented that composers seem generally to conduct their own music at a faster pace than other conductors do. Apparently here is another instance.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 02, 2011, 11:40:12 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 02, 2011, 08:33:07 PM
Landed today:

(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/000/569/0000056981_350.jpg)

Already listening to In the South. Absolutely gorgeous! Boult was just so damn good at conducting Elgar.

I have a memory (can't quite place where I got it from, right now) of Elgar saying to the young Adrian Boult that he felt the future of his music was safe in his hands. True enough (and well-evidenced by that 2 CD set).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on September 03, 2011, 07:39:12 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 02, 2011, 08:51:24 PM
I don't remember who on GMG made the observation, and don't remember which composer was specifically being discussed at the time, but someone once commented that composers seem generally to conduct their own music at a faster pace than other conductors do. Apparently here is another instance.

Coincidentally I just got home and found the postman had delivered my box set of the complete Elgar electric recordings (as discussed above). Haven't had time to listen yet, but apropos of what you just said I find it interesting that in the liner notes is this observation, taken from a letter sent by George Bernard Shaw to Elgar. GBS was present at the recording session he's commenting on

Quote from: GBSIt was a mistaken kindness to [Landon Ronald], because he knows your scores by heart, and suffers agonies in his longing to conduct them himsel. He wants to make more of every passage than you do. A composer always strikes an adorer as being callous.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on September 03, 2011, 07:58:25 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on September 02, 2011, 11:40:12 PM
I have a memory (can't quite place where I got it from, right now) of Elgar saying to the young Adrian Boult that he felt the future of his music was safe in his hands. True enough (and well-evidenced by that 2 CD set).

This may end up being some of favorite Elgar recordings. I'm enjoying this much more than his Lyrita recordings. In the South was beautifully played. These performances are all one could ask for. Certainly better than the Solti! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 03, 2011, 08:33:18 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 03, 2011, 07:58:25 AM
This may end up being some of favorite Elgar recordings. I'm enjoying this much more than his Lyrita recordings. In the South was beautifully played. These performances are all one could ask for. Certainly better than the Solti! :)

Very different to the Solti... but certainly one of my favourite Elgar recordings of all time - despite a few editing issues, only minor! Let us know what you think of his performances of the symphonies, you'll enjoy them I'm sure, full of beauty and passion! :)

Daniel
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on September 03, 2011, 08:37:24 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 03, 2011, 08:33:18 AM
Very different to the Solti... but certainly one of my favourite Elgar recordings of all time - despite a few editing issues, only minor! Let us know what you think of his performances of the symphonies, you'll enjoy them I'm sure, full of beauty and passion! :)

Daniel

I've heard the entire 2-CD set, Daniel and the performances are fantastic. Boult knew Elgar's music so well. He conducts the music with such authority.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 03, 2011, 08:52:01 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 03, 2011, 08:37:24 AM
I've heard the entire 2-CD set, Daniel and the performances are fantastic. Boult knew Elgar's music so well. He conducts the music with such authority.

Glad you enjoyed it all, John! Hopefully you admire Elgar more now! :)

Daniel
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on September 03, 2011, 08:55:41 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 03, 2011, 08:52:01 AM
Glad you enjoyed it all, John! Hopefully you admire Elgar more now! :)

Daniel

Oh, I never didn't admire Elgar. I've always enjoyed his music, but it just wasn't music I returned to much, but, yes, right now, I've been re-evaluating my view on Elgar and I can say with some enthusiasm that I'm enjoying the music a lot more this time around.

Elgar seems to be a composer, maybe this is just for me though, that gets better and better on repeat listening. I continue to find little details in the music that I hadn't heard before each time around. I agree with you, Daniel, that Elgar's 2nd is one of his crowning achievements.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 03, 2011, 09:04:52 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 03, 2011, 08:55:41 AM
Oh, I never didn't admire Elgar. I've always enjoyed his music, but it just wasn't music I returned to much, but, yes, right now, I've been re-evaluating my view on Elgar and I can say with some enthusiasm that I'm enjoying the music a lot more this time around.

Elgar seems to be a composer, maybe this is just for me though, that gets better and better on repeat listening. I continue to find little details in the music that I hadn't heard before each time around. I agree with you, Daniel, that Elgar's 2nd is one of his crowning achievements.

Really glad that you are enjoying Elgar a lot more this time round! :) More for you to explore! Not sure if you know the oratorios yet? Much beautiful music to be found there! And some really excellent chamber music as well, although Elgar's real excellence did lie in the orchestral music!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 03, 2011, 09:17:57 AM
Just ordered more Elgar:

Enigma Variations + Pomp and Circumstance Marches 1-5 - Boult/EMI
Symphonies 1 & 2 + other works - Boult/EMI

Quote from: Mirror Image on September 03, 2011, 08:55:41 AM
Oh, I never didn't admire Elgar. I've always enjoyed his music, but it just wasn't music I returned to much, but, yes, right now, I've been re-evaluating my view on Elgar and I can say with some enthusiasm that I'm enjoying the music a lot more this time around.

Good to hear people getting better into Elgar.  ;)

Quote from: Mirror Image on September 03, 2011, 08:55:41 AMElgar seems to be a composer, maybe this is just for me though, that gets better and better on repeat listening. I continue to find little details in the music that I hadn't heard before each time around. I agree with you, Daniel, that Elgar's 2nd is one of his crowning achievements.

Yes, Elgar seems to be that kind of composer. His compositions don't reveal everything on first listening. I have been talking about multidimensionality. That is, I feel Elgar was able to control musical dimensions (melody, harmony, timbre, rhythm, development etc.) so that they can operate together to form more complex musical structures than the notes on the score would indicate.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 03, 2011, 09:20:38 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 03, 2011, 09:04:52 AM
Elgar's real excellence did lie in the orchestral music!

Orchestral and choral music  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 03, 2011, 09:30:50 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 03, 2011, 09:20:38 AM
Orchestral and choral music  ;)

I'm starting to believe it's his choral music, I find myself extremely moved by such pieces as The Black Knight, The Dream of Gerontius, The Music Makers, Sea Pictures (although solo voice), and just recently The Spirit of England and frequent these more than others.

My favorites most likely will always be Symphony No. 2. and Cello Concerto in E minor, but Elgar's choral music consistently impresses me.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 10:30:29 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 03, 2011, 09:17:57 AM
Good to hear people getting better into Elgar.  ;)


It's clear to me that GMG is Elgarising at an enormous rate... Elgar has been rising in my estimation, too, these past few months, though I always loved his music. He really is a fascinating composer and a fascinating man.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on September 03, 2011, 10:39:57 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 10:30:29 AM
It's clear to me that GMG is Elgarising at an enormous rate... Elgar has been rising in my estimation, too, these past few months, though I always loved his music. He really is a fascinating composer and a fascinating man.
It helps to have a thoughtful advocate who addresses what he loves about the man's music instead of assaulting the wit and judgment of others who admire Beethoven and others.  I have always loved certain of Elgar's works--the cello concerto above all others--but still find too much swagger and bombast in the symphonies to suit me.  Yet I return to them occasionally, giving the lightning a chance to strike.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 03, 2011, 11:29:11 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 03, 2011, 10:39:57 AM
I ... still find too much swagger and bombast in the symphonies to suit me.  Yet I return to them occasionally, giving the lightning a chance to strike.

There's unabashed swagger and bombast in the finale of Caractacus, certainly, but ... in the symphonies? I wonder what's going on there, Dave. I don't hear swagger, or bombast, myself, in those. This is too big an issue to be addressed in passing, but I suspect the answer lies in the various conflicting attitudes to Imperialism. Elgar was undoubtedly an Imperialist, in the sense that he believed in the value of certain noble and chivalric ideals, and that the Empire should promote them. The difficulty lies in locating the line that can be drawn dividing that 'good' side of Imperialism from the jingoistic 'bad'; and unfortunately the associations of the latter have infiltrated and infected many perceptions of the former, and one of the great casualties of this over the years has been the reception of Elgar's music.

Next time you listen to the symphonies, you might like to try this experiment. When the music seems to suggest to you 'swagger' and 'bombast', try substituting words like 'nobility' and 'chivalry' instead, and see if they fit as well, or better. For me, they do. But I have to concede that this is a conditioning issue rather than a musical one. It was for me too, once (though not in the symphonies), and I know it's not easily fixed.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 11:35:34 AM
For what it's worth, I don't hear 'swagger and bombast' in the symphonies, either. Elgar may have believed in Empire, but his symphonies are far too subtle and complex to be propaganda. They are too full of longing, conflict, mourning and pain.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 03, 2011, 11:39:27 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 11:35:34 AM
For what it's worth, I don't hear 'swagger and bombast' in the symphonies, either. Elgar may have believed in Empire, but his symphonies are far too subtle and complex to be propaganda. They are too full of longing, conflict, mourning and pain.

I completely agree with you Johan, these are certainly not pieces of propaganda! Elgar wrote that he had poured out his sould into the 2nd symphony so obviously that wasn't just for the country, it was personal to him! I don't hear much propaganda in much of Elgar's music actually, apart from the Pomp and Circumstances and the "Coronation March".
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 11:47:18 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 03, 2011, 11:39:27 AM
I completely agree with you Johan, these are certainly not pieces of propaganda! Elgar wrote that he had poured out his sould into the 2nd symphony so obviously that wasn't just for the country, it was personal to him! I don't hear much propaganda in much of Elgar's music actually, apart from the Pomp and Circumstances and the "Coronation March".

Of course, I know David never used the word 'propaganda'. But, like Alan, I sense behind the 'swagger and bombast' a prejudice about Elgar that was quite prevalent - Elgar as the apologist of Empire. The symphonies transcend the long-dead British Empire, being great music, where the personal and the public are perfectly interfused, just like Mahler did with his dying Empire.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 03, 2011, 11:49:09 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 03, 2011, 11:39:27 AM
I don't hear much propaganda in much of Elgar's music actually, apart from the Pomp and Circumstances and the "Coronation March".

You're leaving out the finale of Caractacus, which is so hopelessly over the top that the only way to cope with it is just to plunge in, suspend all disbelief, and revel in its over-the-topness.

But seriously, there are indeed only a very few examples of Elgar's work that might genuinely qualify for the 'swagger' label. They're very much the exception, not the rule, and Johan's keywords ('longing, conflict, mourning and pain') are the prevalent ones.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 03, 2011, 12:07:11 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on September 03, 2011, 11:49:09 AM
You're leaving out the finale of Caractacus, which is so hopelessly over the top that the only way to cope with it is just to plunge in, suspend all disbelief, and revel in its over-the-topness.

But seriously, there are indeed only a very few examples of Elgar's work that might genuinely qualify for the 'swagger' label. They're very much the exception, not the rule, and Johan's keywords ('longing, conflict, mourning and pain') are the prevalent ones.

haha ;) What a powerful finale it is though! Caractacus is a masterpiece, shame it is so underrated!

Daniel
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 03, 2011, 12:48:04 PM
HOW TO COPE WITH THE FINALE OF CARACTACUS

1. Ascend the Herefordshire Beacon, in the Malvern Hills ...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1010080-1.jpg)



2. ...  right to the very top, to the British Camp - legendary location of Caractacus:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1010082-1.jpg)



3. Survey the world at your feet. Put on headphones. Listen to the finale of Caractacus. It will be OK this time.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1010053.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on September 03, 2011, 01:10:51 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 11:47:18 AM
Of course, I know David never used the word 'propaganda'. But, like Alan, I sense behind the 'swagger and bombast' a prejudice about Elgar that was quite prevalent - Elgar as the apologist of Empire. The symphonies transcend the long-dead British Empire, being great music, where the personal and the public are perfectly interfused, just like Mahler did with his dying Empire.
No extra-musical considerations for me, I just don't much care for that loud, brassy, in-your-face stuff, whether by Elgar, Bruckner, or John Phillip Sousa.  A little goes a long way with me and even Mahler crosses the line at times.  Perhaps it's a deficiency in me, akin to some folks' dislike for the scrunchy sound of real gut strings.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 01:17:34 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 03, 2011, 01:10:51 PM
No extra-musical considerations for me, I just don't much care for that loud, brassy, in-your-face stuff, whether by Elgar, Bruckner, or John Phillip Sousa.  A little goes a long way with me and even Mahler crosses the line at times.  Perhaps it's a deficiency in me, akin to some folks' dislike for the scrunchy sound of real gut strings.

Fair enough. It's difficult to change a temperament. I don't like the vocal Bach myself...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 03, 2011, 01:21:18 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 03, 2011, 01:10:51 PM
No extra-musical considerations for me, I just don't much care for that loud, brassy, in-your-face stuff, whether by Elgar, Bruckner, or John Phillip Sousa....even Mahler crosses the line at times.

I was going to say, David uses the word bombast a lot to describe music most of us just find thrilling.  Don't be offended. David's not normal   ;)

Listening to Falstaff now. Maybe the problem most of you have with the work is that you're not listening to Barbirolli. Wow, he's great here...the music spectacular.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on September 03, 2011, 07:32:19 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 03, 2011, 09:04:52 AM
Really glad that you are enjoying Elgar a lot more this time round! :) More for you to explore! Not sure if you know the oratorios yet? Much beautiful music to be found there! And some really excellent chamber music as well, although Elgar's real excellence did lie in the orchestral music!

I've got the EMI box of choral music that I've been meaning to listen to more of. This is the set I'm referring to, Daniel:

[asin]B000I0SGXK[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on September 03, 2011, 07:34:33 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 03, 2011, 09:17:57 AMGood to hear people getting better into Elgar.  ;)

Yes, Elgar seems to be that kind of composer. His compositions don't reveal everything on first listening. I have been talking about multidimensionality. That is, I feel Elgar was able to control musical dimensions (melody, harmony, timbre, rhythm, development etc.) so that they can operate together to form more complex musical structures than the notes on the score would indicate.

One work that I've always admired by Elgar is his Cello Concerto. Man, this is just a gripping piece of music from start to finish.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 03, 2011, 07:54:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/_J-Iwtzzge8&feature=player_embedded#!


Du Pre makes her cello cry.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on September 03, 2011, 07:59:16 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 03, 2011, 07:54:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/_J-Iwtzzge8&feature=player_embedded#!


Du Pre makes her cello cry.

Du Pre owns the Elgar Cello Concerto as far as I'm concerned. So much passion.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 04, 2011, 04:24:21 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on September 03, 2011, 12:48:04 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1010080-1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1010082-1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1010053.jpg)

Great photos. I especially like the last one. Shop out all but the central figure and you have a Caspar David Friedrich  8)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/aug11/P1010053.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 04, 2011, 04:38:25 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 11:47:18 AM
Of course, I know David never used the word 'propaganda'. But, like Alan, I sense behind the 'swagger and bombast' a prejudice about Elgar that was quite prevalent - Elgar as the apologist of Empire. The symphonies transcend the long-dead British Empire, being great music, where the personal and the public are perfectly interfused, just like Mahler did with his dying Empire.

I've always found this attitude unfair to Elgar. Brahms wrote a bombastic Triumphlied celebrating German victory over France; Tchaikovsky wrote the 1812 Overture; the young Beethoven composed a cantata to celebrate the new Holy Roman Emperor, as well as the notorious Wellington's Victory. Yet it doesn't seem to have hurt their reputations any. This sort of patriotic-bombastic production was totally normal in that age. Why single out Elgar for criticism?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 04, 2011, 05:32:57 AM
Quote from: Velimir on September 04, 2011, 04:38:25 AM
This sort of patriotic-bombastic production was totally normal in that age. Why single out Elgar for criticism?

The sort of thing you're criticising is a kind of chronological fallacy: that of projecting our modern sensibilities and preoccupations into the past. We tend to do a lot of it, and, worse, we do it inaccurately. That is, we allow anything else that has a similar flavour to become infected with it in our fancied historical world view. But in truth I don't think anyone here in this thread has been doing that at all. Even Dave, in using the words in his initial post, was talking purely about his own personal response to the music, and wasn't actually accusing Elgar himself either of swagger or of bombast.

So the issue you raise actually hasn't been an issue in the discussion so far - for which indeed, all of us are thankful I should imagine.

But also, one of the points we've been asserting repeatedly is that there's surprisingly little bombastic and swaggering music in Elgar's oeuvre. Remarkably little, considering the prevalence of the popular view.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 04, 2011, 05:58:18 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on September 04, 2011, 05:32:57 AM
But also, one of the points we've been asserting repeatedly is that there's surprisingly little bombastic and swaggering music in Elgar's oeuvre. Remarkably little, considering the prevalence of the popular view.

Yes, absolutely. And in his major works, when the "swaggering" does appear, it has an aesthetic function, something that is necessary to the dramatic structure of the work. It can be moderated, ironized, transformed into its opposite, and so forth.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 04, 2011, 06:13:12 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on September 03, 2011, 12:48:04 PM
HOW TO COPE WITH THE FINALE OF CARACTACUS
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1010080-1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1010082-1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1010053.jpg)

Aye, beautiful pics, thanks, Alan!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 04, 2011, 06:18:16 AM
Quote from: Velimir on September 04, 2011, 04:38:25 AM
I've always found this attitude unfair to Elgar. Brahms wrote a bombastic Triumphlied celebrating German victory over France; Tchaikovsky wrote the 1812 Overture; the young Beethoven composed a cantata to celebrate the new Holy Roman Emperor, as well as the notorious Wellington's Victory. Yet it doesn't seem to have hurt their reputations any. This sort of patriotic-bombastic production was totally normal in that age. Why single out Elgar for criticism?

I think (and starting off on the record as agreeing that it ain't fair on Elgar), it could be tied to the fact that all the examples you've cited are a bit more ancient, and much more local. In Elgar's case (albeit unjustly), his epoch is linked to The Great War, which was monumental folly, and hitherto unprecedented carnage.  That this still feels uncomfortably fresh and contemporary, was driven home again as I watched Black Adder Goes Forth this past week.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 04, 2011, 06:19:39 AM
BTW, great discussion, as is customary here, chaps. Thanks!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on September 04, 2011, 06:31:00 AM
Alan (if I may be allowed to copy k a r l), I saw earlier on this thread that you recommended a book or two about certain facets of Elgar's life.

I was wondering what, if any, one volume biography of Elgar covering his whole life, you would recommend.  (sorry if you may have addressed this before somewhere, but 58 pages of posts is a lot to go through)

I've been reading Anderson's biography in the Master Musician series, and it is a good source for information, to a degree.  But, as a biography it isn't that appealing.  It's written so choppily it's more like the author's notebooks just reprinted for publication.  I'm looking for something that is a bit more 'literary', for lack of a better word.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 04, 2011, 09:04:01 AM
Quote from: Velimir on September 04, 2011, 05:58:18 AM
Yes, absolutely. And in his major works, when the "swaggering" does appear, it has an aesthetic function, something that is necessary to the dramatic structure of the work. It can be moderated, ironized, transformed into its opposite, and so forth.

Oh that's perfectly expressed. I wish I'd said that. Imagine me nodding violently in agreement, if you please.

A classic example of that occurs in the final movement of the 1st symphony (I've only mentioned this 99 times before, so it needs more emphasis). He sets up a kind of militaristic march ('rum tum tum tiddle, rum tum tum tum, rum tum tum, tiddle tummm'), and taken in isolation one could imagine cocking an ear and saying oh yes, here we go, swagger swagger, here come the British Bullies. But the march exists solely for the purpose of transfiguration - the swaggertune itself is transformed and redeemed into one of the most exquisite passages in all of Elgar. It's no exaggeration to say that that moment of transformation alone would elevate Elgar into my list of favourite composers.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 04, 2011, 09:19:04 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on September 04, 2011, 09:04:01 AM
Oh that's perfectly expressed. I wish I'd said that. Imagine me nodding violently in agreement, if you please.

A classic example of that occurs in the final movement of the 1st symphony (I've only mentioned this 99 times before, so it needs more emphasis). He sets up a kind of militaristic march ('rum tum tum tiddle, rum tum tum tum, rum tum tum, tiddle tummm'), and taken in isolation one could imagine cocking an ear and saying oh yes, here we go, swagger swagger, here come the British Bullies. But the march exists solely for the purpose of transfiguration - the swaggertune itself is transformed and redeemed into one of the most exquisite passages in all of Elgar. It's no exaggeration to say that that moment of transformation alone would elevate Elgar into my list of favourite composers.


I know the passage you mean. Yes, it's a miraculous moment.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: cilgwyn on September 04, 2011, 09:21:47 AM
Lovely photographs Elgarian. Spectacular!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 04, 2011, 09:27:04 AM
Well, stap my vitals!  The Dutton disc with The Spirit of England arrived yesterday . . . seems that in all events the duplication is value added, as the Dutton appears to be the first recording of the piece with two solo voices.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 04, 2011, 09:28:19 AM
Quote from: Vesteralen on September 04, 2011, 06:31:00 AM
I was wondering what, if any, one volume biography of Elgar covering his whole life, you would recommend.  (sorry if you may have addressed this before somewhere, but 58 pages of posts is a lot to go through)

That's a harder question than you might think. While I've read some truly fine books on Elgar, I've never read what I'd consider to be a really good general biography (I mean by that, something that's a real pleasure to read, rather than to gather facts from). The one that most would consider definitive is Jerrold Northrop Moore's Edward Elgar: A Creative Life. But it's a great doorstop of a book, it's hideously expensive, and I've never actually sat down to read it from cover to cover. It's a book I consult quite often, but read only in short bursts - though I'm sure there are some who'll say this is unfair treatment of it.

Rather than recommend a biography that I don't really recommend (if you see what I mean), I think I can serve you better (even though it's not what you asked for) by pointing more towards the 'I knew Elgar' type of book, and suggest that it's possible to gradually assimilate the life in that way. So there's Dora Powell's Memories of a Variation; Rosa Burley's Edward Elgar: Record of a Friendship; and Billy Reed's Elgar as I Knew Him - these are three of the most precious books on my shelves. They are, of course, of their time (that's their value) and thereby out of date - so if you want the lowdown on the Windflower and on Vera Hockman, you have to look elsewhere. On Vera Hockman (the love of Elgar's last years), you want Kevin Allen's Elgar in Love.

I can get this far without going and looking at my Elgar bookshelves and more serious thought. I'll leave it here for now, seek inspiration later, and report back.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 04, 2011, 09:29:03 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on September 04, 2011, 09:04:01 AM
A classic example of that occurs in the final movement of the 1st symphony (I've only mentioned this 99 times before, so it needs more emphasis). He sets up a kind of militaristic march ('rum tum tum tiddle, rum tum tum tum, rum tum tum, tiddle tummm'), and taken in isolation one could imagine cocking an ear and saying oh yes, here we go, swagger swagger, here come the British Bullies. But the march exists solely for the purpose of transfiguration - the swaggertune itself is transformed and redeemed into one of the most exquisite passages in all of Elgar.

Yes, that bit is a stroke of genius. And it's precisely the example I was thinking of when I wrote "transformed into its opposite."

I think also of the various transformations of the grandiose "swaggering" motto theme in that symphony: how it timidly appears at the start of the 1st mvt. development and then wanders off into nothingness; or how it reappears in the coda of the same mvt. and gets "shouted down" by the other instruments. These are similar to the kind of developments Mahler was putting his own themes through, at the same time in symphonic history.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 04, 2011, 09:34:09 AM
All right, I must be angling towards getting serious . . . I've downloaded scores to The Dream of Gerontius, Op.38, and The Spirit of England, Op.80
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 04, 2011, 09:36:54 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 04, 2011, 09:34:09 AM
All right, I must be angling towards getting serious . . . I've downloaded scores to The Dream of Gerontius, Op.38, and The Spirit of England, Op.80


That Spirit of England is 'only' a vocal score, alas (from ISMLP at least).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 04, 2011, 09:39:21 AM
Yes, that's all right for my present purposes . . . do you know, the first I studied Rimsky-Korsakov's Sheherazade, it was a piano score . . . .

Trivial observation of the day: just dawned on me the as opuse numbers, The Music Makers immediately follows Falstaff.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 04, 2011, 09:49:03 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 04, 2011, 09:39:21 AM
Yes, that's all right for my present purposes . . . do you know, the first I studied Rimsky-Korsakov's Sheherazade, it was a piano score . . . .


;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 04, 2011, 11:13:56 AM
Quote from: Vesteralen on September 04, 2011, 06:31:00 AM
I was wondering what, if any, one volume biography of Elgar covering his whole life, you would recommend.  (sorry if you may have addressed this before somewhere, but 58 pages of posts is a lot to go through)

Part 2

I'm going to conclude my earlier post with a boring finale. After looking along my shelves without being biographically inspired, I think your best solution may be this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HHGQ296FL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU02_.jpg)

It's up to date; it has all the Windflowery stuff; and it's short enough to be digestible. It isn't a 'great' biography - Kennedy hasn't Boswellised his Johnson - but it's written fluently enough. And once you'd read that, you'd be perfectly poised to get to know Elgar properly via the books I mentioned earlier.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 04, 2011, 11:15:44 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 04, 2011, 09:27:04 AM
the Dutton appears to be the first recording of the piece with two solo voices.

I found it interesting to hear once; but after so much exposure to the most well-known solo soprano version, it seemed all wrong to me....

I don't say it is wrong. I just can't cope with it myself.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 04, 2011, 12:38:21 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 03, 2011, 07:32:19 PM
I've got the EMI box of choral music that I've been meaning to listen to more of. This is the set I'm referring to, Daniel:

[asin]B000I0SGXK[/asin]

Oh yes, what an excellent set... the choral music is the area of Elgar's music I know least so I better get back to listening to it sometime, probably starting when I see Gerontius live next year! :)

Elgarian, it's not exactly a standard biography, but I enjoyed reading it very much. Not sure if you know of it:

[asin]1847065333[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on September 04, 2011, 05:07:48 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on September 04, 2011, 09:28:19 AM
Rather than recommend a biography that I don't really recommend (if you see what I mean), I think I can serve you better (even though it's not what you asked for) by pointing more towards the 'I knew Elgar' type of book, and suggest that it's possible to gradually assimilate the life in that way. So there's Dora Powell's Memories of a Variation; Rosa Burley's Edward Elgar: Record of a Friendship; and Billy Reed's Elgar as I Knew Him - these are three of the most precious books on my shelves. They are, of course, of their time (that's their value) and thereby out of date - so if you want the lowdown on the Windflower and on Vera Hockman, you have to look elsewhere. On Vera Hockman (the love of Elgar's last years), you want Kevin Allen's Elgar in Love.

So it would seem that for Elgar biography, the personal is much more important that the hyperfactual - which is as it should be.


I confess that like DavidRoss I find a certain bloatedness in the symphonies (I'm not at all concerned about swagger - I like a bit of swagger).
But perhaps the original recordings will refresh my palate? I have pulled the trigger on the Electric Elgar set - the website says there are only 10 copies left!!!

Electric Elgar - the phrase should inspire a new entry for the "terrible CD covers" thread.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on September 04, 2011, 06:03:07 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on September 04, 2011, 11:13:56 AM
Part 2

I'm going to conclude my earlier post with a boring finale. After looking along my shelves without being biographically inspired, I think your best solution may be this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HHGQ296FL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU02_.jpg)

It's up to date; it has all the Windflowery stuff; and it's short enough to be digestible. It isn't a 'great' biography - Kennedy hasn't Boswellised his Johnson - but it's written fluently enough. And once you'd read that, you'd be perfectly poised to get to know Elgar properly via the books I mentioned earlier.

Thanks very much.  Sorry I couldn't get to my computer till so late to see your responses.  I'm anxious to find some of these recommended books.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on September 04, 2011, 06:18:40 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 04, 2011, 05:07:48 PM
Electric Elgar - the phrase should inspire a new entry for the "terrible CD covers" thread.
Is there a sequel in the works?

(http://www.frasercoastevents.com.au/admin/uploads/young_einstein.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on September 04, 2011, 07:09:48 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 04, 2011, 12:38:21 PM
Oh yes, what an excellent set... the choral music is the area of Elgar's music I know least so I better get back to listening to it sometime, probably starting when I see Gerontius live next year! :)

Elgarian, it's not exactly a standard biography, but I enjoyed reading it very much. Not sure if you know of it:

[asin]1847065333[/asin]

I have not seen or even heard of this book, Daniel. Kudos for mentioning it. I'll check it out sometime. By the way, I haven't heard The Dream of Gerontius in years. I should revisit that work soon.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 04, 2011, 07:41:08 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 04, 2011, 12:38:21 PM
Elgarian, it's not exactly a standard biography, but I enjoyed reading it very much. Not sure if you know of it:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5184aIk8DIL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU02_.jpg)
Yes I agree - I enjoyed it too. But I wouldn't think of it as a source of primary biographical material, even though it does contain some biographical essays. Truth is, the Elgar books I most cherish are not straight biographies. In addition to the ones I've already mentioned, there's this old favourite of mine, for example:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61WIP2TOHnL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Of course not everyone will want to know every possible detail about Elgar's doings in the recording studio - but for those who do, it's all here.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 04, 2011, 07:47:22 PM
Quote from: Vesteralen on September 04, 2011, 06:03:07 PM
I'm anxious to find some of these recommended books.

Afterthought: if you get Dorabella's book, get the later (third, I think), not the first, edition. The later edition has extra material and a whole chapter on the characters from the Enigma Variations. Of course if you're me, you have to have both. Pass my anorak, and my trainspotter's manual.

Addendum: you can get a slight taste of Dorabella's style of wrting here - I extracted some bits from her book to accompany some photos:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,12196.msg369600.html#msg369600 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,12196.msg369600.html#msg369600)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on September 05, 2011, 04:40:35 AM
The Reed book is available from my library system, as is the Moore biography (but only in a shortened edition - the full size one is "Damaged").  The Kennedy biography is available with the title "Portrait of Elgar".  I'm assuming that is the same book as the one you mentioned, but in the U S edition.  I ordered these.

Also available are "Elgar the Man" by Michael De La Noy and "Elgar, the Music Maker" by Diana McVeagh, along with "Elgar Lived Here" (which may be the same book as "Elgar Country") and "Alice Elgar: Enigma of a Victorian Lady", along with books on specific works like Gerontius, The Enigma Variations and The Third Symphony.

Any thoughts on these other books?

The other books mentioned in this thread are not available from the library, so I will have to use "Bookfinder" or Amazon to locate them.

Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 05, 2011, 04:42:26 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 04, 2011, 07:09:48 PM
I have not seen or even heard of this book, Daniel. Kudos for mentioning it. I'll check it out sometime. By the way, I haven't heard The Dream of Gerontius in years. I should revisit that work soon.
Yes, certainly do! It contains contributions from many great Elgarians such as Janet Baker, Mark Elder, Yehudi Menuhin, Stephen Hough etc.

Quote from: Elgarian on September 04, 2011, 07:41:08 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61WIP2TOHnL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Of course not everyone will want to know every possible detail about Elgar's doings in the recording studio - but for those who do, it's all here.

Thank you for the recommendation, Elgarian, this one looks very interesting! :)
I really need to build my Elgar biography library - so all these recommendations are very welcome! :)

Daniel
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 05, 2011, 11:22:19 AM
Quote from: Vesteralen on September 05, 2011, 04:40:35 AM
The Reed book is available from my library system,

Excellent - you definitely should get that. Reed really knew Elgar well, from a special perspective. As an extra bonus there's stuff on the third symphony that's to be found nowhere else - it was a major source of information for Anthony Payne.

Quotethe Moore biography (but only in a shortened edition - the full size one is "Damaged").

Odd, I've never heard of a shortened version. I wonder if the so-called short version is Elgar: Child of Dreams. If so, that's a different sort of book. OK, and with some interesting and far from daft ideas about grouping Elgar in with the British mystical pastoralists - but not an orthodox bio.

QuoteThe Kennedy biography is available with the title "Portrait of Elgar".  I'm assuming that is the same book as the one you mentioned, but in the U S edition.  I ordered these.

No, emphatically not the same book. Portrait of Elgar was Kennedy's first biography, written in the 60s I think. It doesn't have the crucially important Windflower stuff in it (which only emerged in the 1980s), and some of Kennedy's early notions about Elgar were seriously misleading in my view, particularly in the area of Elgar's attitude to Imperialism. I wouldn't have recommended it. The book I listed (Life of Elgar) was Kennedy's much later, more mature and more trustworthy biography, which does contain the more recent Windflower discoveries.

QuoteAlso available are "Elgar the Man" by Michael De La Noy

Don't have it and don't know it. Shock! Horror!

Quote"Elgar, the Music Maker" by Diana McVeagh

Definitely worth reading - focuses very much on the music, as you expect from the title - and yet, and yet, it's not the last word. You can read what she says and profit from it, but - well, I find her account of the violin concerto rather thin, for example, and it misses out all sorts of interesting discussion that I expected to find there.

Quote"Elgar Lived Here" (which may be the same book as "Elgar Country")

No, two different books, the first by Pauline Collett and the latter by her husband. Unless you're planning to go to Elgar country to seek out his houses and haunts, you'd probably find them a waste of time. I'd recommend avoiding them if only to spare yourself the pain of suffering Pauline Collett's drawings.

Quote"Alice Elgar: Enigma of a Victorian Lady",

You might want to read this five years further down the line, but.... probably not now.

Quotealong with books on specific works like Gerontius, The Enigma Variations and The Third Symphony.

Payne's book on the 3rd symphony (must be his, I know of no other) is certainly worth reading if you know and enjoy the 3rd symphony - and even if you don't, for it'll get you listening to it. There are several books on Enigma - well yes, why not? But not essential. And I do have a book on Gerontius, but haven't read it yet.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 05, 2011, 11:25:16 AM
Most interesting, Alan, thanks.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on September 05, 2011, 12:00:47 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on September 05, 2011, 11:22:19 AM
Odd, I've never heard of a shortened version. I wonder if the so-called short version is Elgar: Child of Dreams. If so, that's a different sort of book. OK, and with some interesting and far from daft ideas about grouping Elgar in with the British mystical pastoralists - but not an orthodox bio.

No, emphatically not the same book. Portrait of Elgar was Kennedy's first biography, written in the 60s I think. It doesn't have the crucially important Windflower stuff in it (which only emerged in the 1980s), and some of Kennedy's early notions about Elgar were seriously misleading in my view, particularly in the area of Elgar's attitude to Imperialism. I wouldn't have recommended it. The book I listed (Life of Elgar) was Kennedy's much later, more mature and more trustworthy biography, which does contain the more recent Windflower discoveries.

Don't have it and don't know it. Shock! Horror!


The Moore book is called "Spirit of England: Edward Elgar and His World".  It is probably not a shortened version of the other book, because it's from Heineman and not Oxford Press.  It's only 175 pages, but both books appear to have been published in 1984.

I ordered the McVeagh and De La Roy books and cancelled the Kennedy.

I'll let you know my reactions later on.  Thanks again!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 05, 2011, 03:01:01 PM
Thoroughly enjoying both works on this disc, so huge thanks to all!

[asin]B000000A9N[/asin]

Hard to believe, too, that it cost me 96¢ (plus shipping, but still).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 05, 2011, 11:05:36 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 05, 2011, 03:01:01 PM
Thoroughly enjoying both works on this disc, so huge thanks to all!

[asin]B000000A9N[/asin]

Hard to believe, too, that it cost me 96¢ (plus shipping, but still).

It's an odd thing, to be affected by someone else's appreciation of music we love, but yet it happens. Reading your post set the day off to a good start.

I'd have expected you to be a bit doubtful about the Coronation Ode though, Karl. Whenever I recommend the CD, I always want to add 'Make sure you listen to Spirit of England but don't bother with the Coronation Ode' in the first instance. I've always felt it an unfortunate coupling on that disc - it sets up an expectation that the two works represent Elgar operating in 'Pomp & Circumstance' mode; whereas actually they're poles apart. And the Ode (despite its merits) is the sort of thing that puts some folk off Elgar, whereas S of E isn't - well, shouldn't be. Were you conscious of any of those kinds of misgivings yourself, at all?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 06, 2011, 04:03:02 AM
No misgivings at all, Alan. I listened to it, fully prepared to give it space to be itself. Another thing is, that as I used to sing many years in the choir of the Episcopal cathedral here in Boston (for instance), this choral idiom is an old friend . . . really, I've sung pieces of that style almost for as long as I've been singing.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 06, 2011, 04:49:31 AM
QuoteYour Amazon.com order of "The Elgar Edition: The Complete Electrical Recordings of Sir Edward Elgar" has shipped!

The game of patience begins! Meanwhile, I turn to Lydia Mordkovitch and the Violin Sonata . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on September 06, 2011, 06:16:55 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 06, 2011, 04:49:31 AM
The game of patience begins! Meanwhile, I turn to Lydia Mordkovitch and the Violin Sonata . . . .

I got the same message today about the Elgar Electric recordings.  Unfortunately, since it's shipping from the UK, the earliest it can get here looks like about 9/30.

Fortunately, I'm still only 5 works into my Elgar-listening project (just past Opus 1), so I have plenty of time.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 06, 2011, 06:49:04 AM
I've no quarrel at all with the Teresa Cahill/Scottish National Orchestra Chorus/SNO/Gibson account of The Spirit of England; but I do think I may prefer "To Women" sung by a tenor.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 06, 2011, 06:59:21 AM
Those sequences in "For the Fallen" — wonderfully cathartic.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2011, 07:01:55 AM
Interesting view on "To Women", Karl. In allegory, the spirit of something is often depicted as a female. So I think I like is as it is. If a man was singing it, the Spirit of England would become too 'fleshy' for me...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 06, 2011, 07:09:04 AM
Hm, interesting, in turn, Johan.  I was really thinking registrally, timbrally.  And . . . I've got the idea somehow that doing the piece with only one solo voice (i.e., having the soprano sing "To Women") was something of an economizing deviation from the composer's original intent. (Not that it oughtn't be done, of course; probably that variant carries the composer's approval.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2011, 07:28:55 AM
In the score it reads: "set to music for tenor OR soprano solo, chorus and orchestra". So, no 'economizing deviation' there 'from the composer's original intent', I think...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 06, 2011, 07:33:23 AM
Thank you, yes!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2011, 07:36:33 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 06, 2011, 07:33:23 AM
Thank you, yes!


Notwithstanding my correctness, the fact remains: a tenor could sing the whole of it. Would that sound all right to your ears? Or only in the case of "To Women"?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 06, 2011, 08:26:38 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2011, 07:36:33 AM
Nothwithstanding my correctness, the fact remains: a tenor could sing the whole of it. Would that sound all right to your ears? Or only in the case of "To Women"?

I've not formed an opinion there, Johan . . . was really just observing a difference between the two recordings I've now heard.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 06, 2011, 08:36:10 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 06, 2011, 06:49:04 AM
but I do think I may prefer "To Women" sung by a tenor.

Oh!

Oh gosh.

Oh Karl .....

Each to his own, of course, but .....

Oh gosh.

Well, alright then. But ....

(fades away....)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 06, 2011, 08:41:58 AM
Well, there I've gone and done it . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2011, 08:43:21 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 06, 2011, 08:45:30 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on August 19, 2011, 12:52:44 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wWJ09FuEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I know one or two people have one of these on order, partly perhaps as a result of my expressed enthusiasm for it. So I was reassured to read the glowing review in the new Gramophone, which echoes the praise bestowed upon it by BBC Music Mag recently. BBC awarded it their 'Record of the Month' title; Gramophone has distinguished it as 'Editor's Choice' and sing its praises as an exceptional performance in their review.

None of this makes them, or me, right of course! But this information might reassure those who are waiting for their copy to arrive ....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 06, 2011, 08:51:11 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 06, 2011, 08:41:58 AM
Well, there I've gone and done it . . . .

No, no, I applaud the exercising of your right to choose, my dear fellow. Really, I do.

It's just that ...

Well, it's like this ...

You see ...

Could somebody pass me a chair? I feel a bit weak....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 07, 2011, 03:17:26 AM
Well, I shall try to redeem myself a bit with aid of this 'un:

[asin]B00004RC80[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 07, 2011, 03:23:34 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 07, 2011, 03:17:26 AM
Well, I shall try to redeem myself a bit with aid of this 'un:

[asin]B00004RC80[/asin]

Let us know what you think Karl! I love that symphony, even though it sounds very un-Elgarian in some places.... :)

Daniel
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 07, 2011, 03:24:49 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 07, 2011, 03:23:34 AM
Let us know what you think Karl! I love that symphony, even though it sounds very un-Elgarian in some places.... :)

I'm alive to that necessity . . . the legend "Elaborated by Anthony Payne" is well considered.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 07, 2011, 03:27:27 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 07, 2011, 03:24:49 AM
I'm alive to that necessity . . . the legend "Elaborated by Anthony Payne" is well considered.

Yes... but don't get me wrong, this is a great work which I enjoy very much all the time! :)
Enjoy it yourself as well! :)

Daniel
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 07, 2011, 04:21:14 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 07, 2011, 03:17:26 AM
Well, I shall try to redeem myself a bit with aid of this 'un:

[asin]B00004RC80[/asin]

Now yer talkin'.

I'm not so sure about it sounding 'unElgarian'. We don't really know what Elgar would have sounded like, writing a symphony so late, and a lot of water had gone under the bridge. What's clear from Payne's book is that he spent years trying to get under Elgar's skin to establish what he thought his intentions were. So although - of course - there are sections that he had to invent, I think he was doing his damnedest NOT to be Payne, but to be Elgar as closely as he could manage. But this is obviously a hugely debateable area - and the business has been a hotbed of controversy.

Interesting question though: if we take the opening section, where Payne had the least to do because Elgar had basically completed it, does it sound like Elgar? That sombre, warning introduction, like a surging great grey sea - which is definitely Elgar and not Payne ... does it sound Elgarian? It does to me now, but when I heard it the first time, I wasn't at all sure. Of course when the second motif enters - the Vera Hockman tune - we know we're in Elgar territory again. But the stuff that precedes it? I think that's a subtly changed voice. Yet it really is Elgar.

I hope you enjoy it Karl. At the very least I think it'll catch your interest.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on September 07, 2011, 08:51:43 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on September 07, 2011, 04:21:14 AM
Now yer talkin'.

I'm not so sure about it sounding 'unElgarian'. We don't really know what Elgar would have sounded like, writing a symphony so late, and a lot of water had gone under the bridge. What's clear from Payne's book is that he spent years trying to get under Elgar's skin to establish what he thought his intentions were. So although - of course - there are sections that he had to invent, I think he was doing his damnedest NOT to be Payne, but to be Elgar as closely as he could manage. But this is obviously a hugely debateable area - and the business has been a hotbed of controversy.

Interesting question though: if we take the opening section, where Payne had the least to do because Elgar had basically completed it, does it sound like Elgar? That sombre, warning introduction, like a surging great grey sea - which is definitely Elgar and not Payne ... does it sound Elgarian? It does to me now, but when I heard it the first time, I wasn't at all sure. Of course when the second motif enters - the Vera Hockman tune - we know we're in Elgar territory again. But the stuff that precedes it? I think that's a subtly changed voice. Yet it really is Elgar.

I hope you enjoy it Karl. At the very least I think it'll catch your interest.

That's what I'd have said, too, though less fluently. I'd have added for emphasis, though, that the opening, which as Alan said is complete and pure Elgar, is founded on a series of blatant, raw and somehat shocking parallel fifths which sound very much unlike any other Elgar I know of. This was late music, though - so many other composers have entered a late phase with similar newly-acquired blatancy and rawness, the bravery and straight-talking that comes from experience. I can't see why Elgar would be different. In that light, the opening to Elgar 3 has always sounded Elgarian to my ears.   :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2011, 09:00:26 AM
I think that raw opening of the Third is prefigured in In the South, where Elgar 'depicts' the Roman army with very harsh and grinding harmonies.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on September 07, 2011, 09:05:43 AM
I think there's a difference, though - those shocking chords in In the South are dense and dissonant, but they don't have that kind of distanced, late-style classicism, the bravery-of-simplicity, the strange harsh lucidity, that you have in those parallel fifths. Definitely you can see that the latter can be related back to the former, but I think there is something specifically 'late' about those fifths. (actually Brian does this sort of thing more and more frequently as he grows older too, I think...I hope I am remembering the right symphonies here!)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 07, 2011, 11:21:19 AM
I'm just wondering if I really know what 'sounding like Elgar' means, in practice. It can mean sounding like Parry, or like Brahms, or like Wagner, at times - but I suppose those kinds of debts or influences are to be found in any composer. But how about things like the spooky piano quintet? We read it now comfortably enough as 'late Elgar of the Brinkwells period', and there are some very recognisable Elgarian passages - but if he'd left mere sketches of that quintet, and if someone like Payne had 'elaborated it' to a conclusion, would we be asking the same kind of questions about parts of it? Would we be attributing certain bits to Payne because they didn't quite sound like Elgar, only to discover, perhaps, that Elgar had in fact composed them?

And how about the seriously weird accompanied cadenza in the violin concerto - I mean those zuthering humming strings in the background at the start of it? Or the near-crippling desolation that the solo violin explores during parts of its 10 minute duration. No one could have predicted in advance that the composer of Pomp & Circumstance could or would have done such things, would they? I think what I'm saying (without trying to prove anything one way or the other), is that I think sometimes Elgar really doesn't sound all that much like Elgar.

One of the things that seemed to please Anthony Payne was that most people couldn't guess correctly where the joins were in the 3rd symphony: they couldn't accurately say (without, I presume, prior detailed knowledge of the sketches) which was Payne and which was Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 07, 2011, 11:30:53 AM
Quote from: Luke on September 07, 2011, 08:51:43 AM
I'd have added for emphasis, though, that the opening, which as Alan said is complete and pure Elgar, is founded on a series of blatant, raw and somehat shocking parallel fifths which sound very much unlike any other Elgar I know of. This was late music, though - so many other composers have entered a late phase with similar newly-acquired blatancy and rawness, the bravery and straight-talking that comes from experience. I can't see why Elgar would be different. In that light, the opening to Elgar 3 has always sounded Elgarian to my ears.   :)

I think one of the things Payne does so well (and I haven't refreshed my memory from his book, but I think he was responsible for it) is towards the end of the first movement, where he switches back and forth between the first and second subjects, allowing the lovely Vera Hockman theme to return as a kind of balm, while the surging sea still surges but more distantly and not so alarmingly. Surely, I can't help thinking, that's how Elgar would have done it. The eternal feminine to the rescue!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 07, 2011, 11:44:39 AM
The higher genius an artist is the higher level her/his art works. The audience may interpret art on lower level than is needed for full undertanding. I think Elgar's art is on higher level than many think it to be thanks to preoccupations (bombastic, patriotic music). That's why "we" find so much "un-Elgarian" music in Elgar's music.

One of the most exciting things in exploring Elgar for me was to hear "new" sides of his art with almost every new work. Somehow I figured out how it all plays in harmony on the higher levels.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on September 07, 2011, 08:07:13 PM
Quote from: Vesteralen on September 06, 2011, 06:16:55 AM
I got the same message today about the Elgar Electric recordings.  Unfortunately, since it's shipping from the UK, the earliest it can get here looks like about 9/30.

Weirdly, shipments from Amazon UK get to Sydney about a month ahead of simultaneous orders from the US.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 08, 2011, 07:43:25 AM
The Rondo: Presto from the Second Symphony is . . . I don't want to say my favorite movement from the symphonies, but it's certainly the one which I dug the most rapidly.  The first movement is still striking me (a little) as summut too long; but if the composer himself takes it at a snappier pace, to even a slightly tightened-up effect, I could easily see myself revising that impression.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 08, 2011, 07:44:56 AM
(I thought I'd revisit the Second Symphony before trying out the Third.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2011, 07:49:07 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 08, 2011, 07:43:25 AM
The Rondo: Presto from the Second Symphony is . . . I don't want to say my favorite movement from the symphonies, but it's certainly the one which I dug the most rapidly.  The first movement is still striking me (a little) as summut too long; but if the composer himself takes it at a snappier pace, to even a slightly tightened-up effect, I could easily see myself revising that impression.


Refresh my memory, Karl: which performance? Boult, EMI? His Rondo:Presto is perfect, I think. The build-up in the trio is masterfully managed. I personally love the middle movements most...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 08, 2011, 08:03:09 AM
At the moment, Johan, I'm listening to A. Davis/BBC Symphony. IIRC, you didn't much care for this 'un? . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2011, 08:09:05 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 08, 2011, 08:03:09 AM
At the moment, Johan, I'm listening to A. Davis/BBC Symphony. IIRC, you didn't much care for this 'un? . . .


Erm... no. I find Andrew Davis a very sympathetic human being, but a mediocre conductor, alas! Others may disagree, but his RVW, Elgar, Delius are a disappointment to me. [I find Hickox - may he rest in peace - often too bland, too.]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 08, 2011, 09:21:04 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 08, 2011, 07:44:56 AM
(I thought I'd revisit the Second Symphony before trying out the Third.)

Anyone with a sense of mathematical rightness can approve the rationality of that decision.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 08, 2011, 10:30:24 AM
What a sublime close to the Second Symphony! I feel like I had never actually heard it before.  Strange to say (and while I have long been ready to pound the table for, say, the Violin or Cello Concerto, and the Violin Sonata) I feel that I'm being visited with an Elgar epiphany.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2011, 10:35:22 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 08, 2011, 10:30:24 AM
I feel that I'm being visited with an Elgar epiphany.


Windflower Hits Boston
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 08, 2011, 10:38:33 AM
I listened to Barbirolli's take on Elgar's 1st symphony again. I am not 100% happy with the performance. There are weird problems with dynamics and instruments tend to mask each other. Certain structures are "lost". Also, there's minor timing problems.

I find Elgar's symphonies on Naxos to be much more precise. Maybe newer performancies try to correct the mistakes made in these "legendary" recordings. 

I am still waiting for Boult. I hope they are better than Barbirolli... ...at least Boult's The Apostles and The Kingdom are superb.

Naxos was the first I had and nothing seems to beat them.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 08, 2011, 10:59:31 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2011, 10:35:22 AM
Windflower Hits Boston

Speaking whereof: The incoming "Elgar's own" box will include my fifth recording of the Opus 61!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 08, 2011, 12:12:45 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 08, 2011, 10:30:24 AM
I feel that I'm being visited with an Elgar epiphany.

Blimey.

Sounds like you need a cup of tea. And a bun.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 08, 2011, 12:16:28 PM
Unlike with the First and Second, which both wanted time to board my favor, I am taking to the Third Symphony straight off. Of course, it may well be that the Third now benefits from my having now hove into empathy with the first two.

Quote from: Elgarian on September 08, 2011, 12:12:45 PM
Blimey.

Sounds like you need a cup of tea. And a bun.

Tea, always. I'll just put the kettle on now.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 09, 2011, 02:06:23 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 08, 2011, 10:38:33 AM
I find Elgar's symphonies on Naxos to be much more precise. Maybe newer performancies try to correct the mistakes made in these "legendary" recordings. 

I got the Hurst performance of the 1st Symphony (Naxos) because it was first choice in the "Building a Library" program. It was a disappointment, rather bland and ordinary. I always like it when a no-name conductor steals the show, but in this case there are any number of big names (Boult, Solti, Previn, Barbirolli) that take preference.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 09, 2011, 02:11:59 AM
This thread must be influencing me. In addition to much Elgar listening over the last week, I downloaded EE's own piano arrangement of "Nimrod" and have been playing it in my usual halting and insecure fashion.

Everyone loves "Nimrod," as shown by its use for all kinds of commemorative events, ripped from its much more interesting original context as part of a larger piece. I wonder how the subjects of Enigma Variations felt about being immortalized in music - these brief sound-portraits are probably all the rest of the world remembers about them.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2011, 04:09:04 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 08, 2011, 07:43:25 AM
The Rondo: Presto from the Second Symphony is . . . I don't want to say my favorite movement from the symphonies, but it's certainly the one which I dug the most rapidly.  The first movement is still striking me (a little) as summut too long; but if the composer himself takes it at a snappier pace, to even a slightly tightened-up effect, I could easily see myself revising that impression.

Wasn't Tate your first taste of Elgar 2, Karl? If you find yourself thinking you'd respond more to a "snappier pace" Tate was definitely wrong for you. I like him but then I like Sinopoli's even slower Second even more. Yeah, you need Elgar himself (14:33) or Solti (15:30)...or Svetlanov (14:01!)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 08, 2011, 10:30:24 AMI feel that I'm being visited with an Elgar epiphany.[/font]

For those of us who think the Second one of Elgar's greatest creations, it's very satisfying you've had this breakthrough. I don't own A. Davis but I see Penguin thinks very highly of it, listing it only behind Handley in the 1996 edition.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 09, 2011, 04:14:24 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2011, 04:09:04 AM
Wasn't Tate your first taste of Elgar 2, Karl?

Probably, Sarge . . . that is, I once owned the A. Davis in a symphonies two-fer, but I don't know that I actually listened to the Second during the brief (seemingly) time this jewel case was on my shelf.  Pretty sure that the first time I listened to the piece attentively (and may well have been following the score), it was Tate.  I should revisit that recording . . . often happens with me that, first, I hear a recording but am not crazy about the piece, second, later I hear a different recording and the piece comes to make sense for me, and then, third, I go back to the first recording with fresh perspective, and hear it entirely differently.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 09, 2011, 05:34:20 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 09, 2011, 04:14:24 AM
often happens with me that, first, I hear a recording but am not crazy about the piece, second, later I hear a different recording and the piece comes to make sense for me, and then, third, I go back to the first recording with fresh perspective, and hear it entirely differently.

Calls to mind Ruskin's response to those who accused him of changing his mind too much. Yes, he said - but the changes are those of a tree, not of a cloud.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 09, 2011, 06:59:52 AM
Элгар в Москве / Elgar in Moscow

Had a look at the Moscow concert schedule for the 2011-12 season. Again, Elgar is pretty well represented: Enigma with my man Rozhdestvensky (on an all-Elgar program!), the 1st Symphony, Cello Concerto (with Natalia Gutman), some smaller works like the Introduction and Allegro, and what I find intriguing given how much it's been discussed here, The Spirit of England, a work I didn't even know existed until recently.

And I haven't even looked at the chamber music listings yet...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 09, 2011, 07:04:18 AM
That's quite extraordinary, Velimir!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 09, 2011, 08:42:03 AM
Quote from: Velimir on September 09, 2011, 06:59:52 AM
and what I find intriguing given how much it's been discussed here, The Spirit of England, a work I didn't even know existed until recently.

It's hardly ever performed. That it should be performed in Moscow is astounding!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 09, 2011, 08:59:59 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on September 09, 2011, 08:42:03 AM
It's hardly ever performed. That it should be performed in Moscow is astounding!

In case you were wondering, the conductor for that is Mark Gorenshtein; and the Elgar is paired with Cherubini's Requiem and something by Delius having to do with a "drifting sea."

BTW, it appears Rozhdestvensky is focusing on English music this season. In addition to the all-Elgar concert, he's also conducting all-Walton and all-Britten concerts. (I like to bring this stuff up because so many people complain that English music "never gets played outside the UK")

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 09, 2011, 09:13:46 AM
Quote from: Velimir on September 09, 2011, 08:59:59 AM
In case you were wondering, the conductor for that is Mark Gorenshtein; and the Elgar is paired with Cherubini's Requiem and something by Delius having to do with a "drifting sea."

BTW, it appears Rozhdestvensky is focusing on English music this season. In addition to the all-Elgar concert, he's also conducting all-Walton and all-Britten concerts. (I like to bring this stuff up because so many people complain that English music "never gets played outside the UK")


That's Sea-Drift, for baritone and orchestra, one of Delius's masterpieces (on a poem by Walt Whitman).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on September 10, 2011, 12:24:01 AM

All I can say is "God bless the Russians!"
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 10, 2011, 05:06:22 AM
Quote from: Velimir on September 09, 2011, 06:59:52 AM
Элгар в Москве / Elgar in Moscow

Had a look at the Moscow concert schedule for the 2011-12 season. Again, Elgar is pretty well represented: Enigma with my man Rozhdestvensky (on an all-Elgar program!), the 1st Symphony, Cello Concerto (with Natalia Gutman), some smaller works like the Introduction and Allegro, and what I find intriguing given how much it's been discussed here, The Spirit of England, a work I didn't even know existed until recently.

And I haven't even looked at the chamber music listings yet...

Wow! That is a surprise I have to admit! Obviously there is plenty of live Elgar here in England, but I am so happy to see foreign orchestras taking up his music. Wonderful that there is a lot in Moscow. I am also happy to see the Berlin Phil doing the Enigma Variations, 1st symphony, Dream of Gerontius. :)

Daniel
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 14, 2011, 05:49:55 AM
On my commute this morning (as noted here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg558444.html#msg558444)), I listened to the concerti . . . and I was thinking how these must probably remain my favorite Elgar works to employ the orchestra.

And then, on arriving at the office (as noted here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13.msg558447.html#msg558447)), I found to my delight that the "Elgar's own" box has arrived, a good deal earlier than I had permitted myself to hope.

Oh . . . what to listen to, first . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 14, 2011, 06:29:24 AM
Actually, I'm re-listening to the third movement of the Nigel Kennedy/Rattle/CBSO account of the Op.61

On the lines of composers not lingering over their own music, I was curious to check the timings of the Menuhin/LSO/Elgar recording:

1st mvt – Ye Nige: 18:11 | Menuhin: 17:25
2nd mvt – Ye Nige: 14:29 | Menuhin: 13:00
3rd mvt – Ye Nige: 21:31 | Menuhin: 19:22
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on September 14, 2011, 08:09:34 PM

Kennedy also recorded it with Handley, of course (timings from Amazon). I'm surprised Handley is broader than Rattle in I.

I.  - Handley: 19:04 | Rattle: 18:11 | Composer: 17:25
II. - Handley: 13:26 | Rattle: 14:29 | Composer: 13:00
III.- Handley: 21:27 | Rattle: 21:31 | Composer: 19:22
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on September 21, 2011, 09:41:46 PM
I've received EMI's Elgar Edition, and just want to point out some problems in the argument of Jerrold Northrop Moore's essay, specifically on whether the tempos of Elgar's recorded performances would have been affected by the limited capacity of each "side". Note, I'm not arguing that Elgar's performance WAS affected, I'm arguing against Moore's argument that it WASN'T.

Here are Moore's main arguments:
Quote... there is not the smallest hint of any side or session for a major work having been rushed. In fact the later discovery of Elgar's test pressing of the 'Serenade mauresque' in his own recording on 1929 suggests the opposite. The slow performance actually overran the record's maximum time and the turntable switched off during the final chord.
I don't see how this helps Moore's argument. Surely the fact that the work, at the tempos Elgar chose, did not fit on the side indicates the opposite of what he is trying to say. In this instance, the recording was posthumously rescued thanks to digital pitch-shifting, but surely there were other takes running over-time which did not survive because they were immediately discarded as NG.

Quote... the score of a shorter work such as Pomp and Circumstance No.1 would be cut by Collingwood in respect of some repeats to allow Elgar's performance to fit the single side comfortably. Such trouble would hardly have been taken if it was intended to hurry the old man along.
Surely this indicates that the performance WAS compromised - they either had to rush the work or cut it, and either way this represents a serious artistic compromise.

Quote... a considerable number of the longer works Elgar recorded came out to odd numbers of sides ... If the company [HMV] had wished to compromise the authenticity of what they expended such effort upon, here is where they would have tried to push things into one side less. They did not.
Here Moore is confusing two separate issues: (1) the possible economy of avoiding "extra" sides, and (2) the practical time restrictions applying to side length. The musical chunks distributed across the sides could not be arbitrarily shifted without interrupting the coherence of sections and phrases. The afore-named Collingwood was tasked with the tasteful division of larger works into sections from 4 to 5 minutes in length. The number of sides a work would take up would have been known well before the recording session began. The timings were worked out according to Collingwood's idea of what an Elgar performance would be like (from the same piece: "... he would take the score and, with a watch at his side, 'conduct' an 'Elgar' performance in his mind's ear to determine the least damaging places to make the necessary side-breaks"), but once all the parts had been marked up there would not have been much room to move as far as tempos were concerned. Elgar could take each side as fast as he felt like, but there was a practical limit on how broad he could go.

(I don't suppose the timings for the individual sides have been posted online anywhere?)

Moore's "clincher" is that after making a speech on this matter, he publicly put Menuhin on the spot as to whether he recalled the sessions of his famous recording of the violin concerto being rushed, to which Menuhin had answered "no". I don't want to put Menuhin in any sort of "Alma" position, but really, the 60 year old memories of an exciting event from his mid-adolescence will not be complete or accurate.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 22, 2011, 04:07:49 AM
Good objections.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 22, 2011, 12:46:25 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 21, 2011, 09:41:46 PM

Moore says: "... the score of a shorter work such as Pomp and Circumstance No.1 would be cut by Collingwood in respect of some repeats to allow Elgar's performance to fit the single side comfortably. Such trouble would hardly have been taken if it was intended to hurry the old man along."

Surely this indicates that the performance WAS compromised - they either had to rush the work or cut it, and either way this represents a serious artistic compromise.

Compromised, yes. But Moore's argument concerns whether compromise was achieved by speeding things along, or by cutting. His point is that we have clear evidence of cutting where length was a problem, but no clear evidence of Elgar deliberately pushing the tempo along to achieve a fit to the sides. That doesn't make a watertight case of course, but in the absence of other information, I'd vote for it myself (if I had to vote).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on September 22, 2011, 05:48:51 PM
Well, that's really my point - there's no conclusive evidence either way, so really all assertions in this area are void. We just don't know, and will have to carry on as best we can!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 23, 2011, 12:06:35 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 22, 2011, 05:48:51 PM
We just don't know, and will have to carry on as best we can!

Yep. Just another of those things we humans have to put up with, along with War, Pestilence, and Famine.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on September 23, 2011, 04:50:10 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on September 23, 2011, 12:06:35 AM
Yep. Just another of those things we humans have to put up with, along with War, Pestilence, and Famine.
And Yanni...mustn't forget Yanni.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 23, 2011, 04:50:56 AM
I think he's covered under Pestilence, Dave.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on September 23, 2011, 04:53:42 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 23, 2011, 04:50:56 AM
I think he's covered under Pestilence, Dave.
Oh.  Along with Jim Carrey.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 23, 2011, 08:58:10 AM
I'm quite content to see 'Pestilence' used as a kind of catch-all bin for all those things that don't count as War or Famine. I'm inclined to think that 'Not Knowing Whether Elgar Speeded Up His Performances When He Made Recordings' must remain as a category of its own though.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 23, 2011, 09:01:18 AM
Spirit of England (Gibson) still has not arrived! I ordered it 3 weeks ago!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 30, 2011, 03:19:41 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 23, 2011, 09:01:18 AM
Spirit of England (Gibson) still has not arrived! I ordered it 3 weeks ago!

Now, a week later I must quote myself and tell the damn disc never arrived.
The seller doesn't have a replacement so a refund is arranged.

::)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on September 30, 2011, 05:43:45 AM
That's a drag, Poju! And it's such a beautiful piece, too.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on September 30, 2011, 05:54:34 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on September 23, 2011, 08:58:10 AM
I'm quite content to see 'Pestilence' used as a kind of catch-all bin for all those things that don't count as War or Famine. I'm inclined to think that 'Not Knowing Whether Elgar Speeded Up His Performances When He Made Recordings' must remain as a category of its own though.
So (1) War, (2) Famine, (3) Pestilence, and (4) Presumably definitive recordings of compositions conducted by their composers that may prove less than definitive due to technical considerations or strategic marketing decisions (breathe!) is not acceptable concerning Elgar?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on September 30, 2011, 01:49:56 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 30, 2011, 05:54:34 AM
So (1) War, (2) Famine, (3) Pestilence, and (4) Presumably definitive recordings of compositions conducted by their composers that may prove less than definitive due to technical considerations or strategic marketing decisions (breathe!) is not acceptable concerning Elgar?

Well, my list wasn't declared to be a list of unacceptables, Dave. It was presented as a list that comprises, as part of the human condition, things we have to put up with. If Montaigne were still with us, I'd like to think he might have changed 'To philosophise is to learn how to die' to 'To philosophise is to learn how to accept uncertainty with regard to Elgar's recordings'. As it is, we'll never know. So it's just another one of those things that we humans have to put up with. Which brings us to:

Category 5: Not knowing what Montaigne might have said if he'd known what he didn't.

etc.
etc.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on September 30, 2011, 04:07:05 PM
Oh, goodie!  I just love infinite regression!

And as long as we're discussing Elgar (we were discussing Elgar, weren't we?), I think this lovely disc mentioned elsewhere today is due for a spin:

[asin]B00003ZKRL[/asin]

Oh, goodness!  In seeking the Amazon image I just discovered that it's shamefully inexpensive these days.  Haruumph!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on September 30, 2011, 05:26:19 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 30, 2011, 04:07:05 PM
Oh, goodie!  I just love infinite regression!

And as long as we're discussing Elgar (we were discussing Elgar, weren't we?), I think this lovely disc mentioned elsewhere today is due for a spin:

[asin]B00003ZKRL[/asin]

Oh, goodness!  In seeking the Amazon image I just discovered that it's shamefully inexpensive these days.  Haruumph!

Oh, goodie!  The Elgar pieces are all in the  sort of big EMI box I have yet to start listening to. 
So I don't have to buy it.  I just have to find the VW pieces in some other issue--hopefully the sort of big EMI Vaughn Williams box I intend to get one of these days.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on September 30, 2011, 05:45:20 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 30, 2011, 05:26:19 PM
Oh, goodie!  The Elgar pieces are all in the  sort of big EMI box I have yet to start listening to. 
So I don't have to buy it.  I just have to find the VW pieces in some other issue--hopefully the sort of big EMI Vaughn Williams box I intend to get one of these days.
Way cool.  Those are great recordings of some of Elgar's best stuff.  The RVW pieces are everywhere, but Barbirolli does 'em proud.  Come to think of it, Barbirolli did most things proud.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 01, 2011, 01:07:52 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 30, 2011, 04:07:05 PM
we were discussing Elgar, weren't we?)

It's good to touch base sometimes, in these deep exchanges that take us where no previous thinking has led; so yes, let's reassure ourselves that we were talking about Elgar. Speaking of which, I can present the assembled company with (a) two images; and (b) news of an interesting cheap CD set. First, the images:

Sunset on Thursday evening, viewed from the British Camp on the top of the Herefordshire Beacon (the site that inspired the composition of Caractacus)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/SunsetHerefordshirebeacon.jpg)


Elgar's Birthplace cottage, as of yesterday afternoon.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/Elgarbirthplace.jpg)


And finally, the CD set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516uWEtNLCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61dLYD85-lL._AA300_.jpg)

Now this looks interesting for several reasons. First, Bisengaliev released two CDs of Elgar's chamber music some years ago (still available but not usually cheap), and those two CDs are included in this 3-CD set. I've owned one of those for some time, and his violin sonata is definitely worth listening to. However, he has now (much more recently) recorded the violin concerto, and this new recording has been bundled with the two earlier CDs in this very attractive Naxos set, which is cheap enough for me to be able to buy it without worrying about duplicating the sonata CD. I think (but am not yet certain) that this set includes every violin work by Elgar, including some rare oddments. The big question is: what's his violin concerto like? I'll report back when I've listened.


Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 01, 2011, 02:54:54 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 01, 2011, 01:07:52 AM
And finally, the CD set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516uWEtNLCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61dLYD85-lL._AA300_.jpg)

Now this looks interesting for several reasons. First, Bisengaliev released two CDs of Elgar's chamber music some years ago (still available but not usually cheap), and those two CDs are included in this 3-CD set. I've owned one of those for some time, and his violin sonata is definitely worth listening to. However, he has now (much more recently) recorded the violin concerto, and this new recording has been bundled with the two earlier CDs in this very attractive Naxos set, which is cheap enough for me to be able to buy it without worrying about duplicating the sonata CD. I think (but am not yet certain) that this set includes every violin work by Elgar, including some rare oddments. The big question is: what's his violin concerto like? I'll report back when I've listened.

I own those 2 Bisengaliev discs released on Black Box label. It's just my luck that when Naxos releases a 3 CD set of Elgar's music, I already own two thirds of it.

I had much more luck with Carly Simon. I got into her music this summer and still haven't bought any of her early albums. Only the later ones.
Now, Rhino label is releasing this October a cheap 5 CD set of her 5 first albums. How convenient!  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on October 01, 2011, 03:49:49 AM
Just a quick check in, since I don't like to visit here too often and break up the flow of the thread.

But, touching on something we talked about a while ago, I've been reading several books on Elgar - both ones recommended here, and ones not.

I couldn't find copies of the Rosa Burley or Dora Powell books, but I am reading Reed's book and I find it unusually entertaining.  The anecdotes are great, some of them truly hilarious.  Some claim he sees things through rose-colored glasses, but everything sounds very true to life to me, so what do I know? (The bicycle ride with Dr Sinclair and the interactions with the handyman Mark are priceless)

I'm continuing with Anderson's book even though it reads like a notebook rather than a book, mainly because it's the most comprehensive one I have access to.

De-la-Noy's book purports to take the lid off the real Elgar story, but so far I haven't read anything more revealing or illuminating than I've read elsewhere.  He is a better writer than Anderson, though, so I'm enjoying it.

"The Spirit of England" by Moore is woefully short , but well written, and I'd say that Moore sounds like the most authoritative source of all of them.  I'd like to find his full-scale Elgar book at a reasonable price, but my library system lists the book only to say it is missing or damaged.  Hmmmph.

I have discovered, however, that Elgar was a much more mysterious personality than I thought.  His mood swings and occasional rudeness are a little off-putting, but overall he seems to have also had a sense of humor, so it all sort of cancels out. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 01, 2011, 03:53:25 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 01, 2011, 02:54:54 AM
I had much more luck with Carly Simon. I got into her music this summer and still haven't bought any of her early albums. Only the later ones.
Now, Rhino label is releasing this October a cheap 5 CD set of her 5 first albums. How convenient!  ;D

Just my luck: I bought Anticipation and No Secrets recently  :(


Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 01, 2011, 04:17:05 AM
Quote from: Vesteralen on October 01, 2011, 03:49:49 AM
I couldn't find copies of the Rosa Burley or Dora Powell books, but I am reading Reed's book and I find it unusually entertaining.  The anecdotes are great, some of them truly hilarious.  Some claim he sees things through rose-colored glasses, but everything sounds very true to life to me, so what do I know? (The bicycle ride with Dr Sinclair and the interactions with the handyman Mark are priceless)

Given that you're so obviously enjoying Reed I'd say, even more emphatically than before, that you'd find it worth trying to get hold of Burley and Powell. That smack of 'I was there' that you're responding to is irresistible in all of them.

QuoteMoore sounds like the most authoritative source of all of them.

He is, and all Elgarians are in great debt to the man. But I've never warmed to his manner of writing, which comes in staccato bursts of information that I find hard to absorb or enjoy. I've just been rereading his Elgar - Child of Dreams, which has a very real and valuable case to make, with a core of real insight at its heart ... but oh, it's so frustrating to read. I feel always on the verge of being overwhelmed by the torrent of fact interspersed with musical examples that somehow seem to distract attention from his central case rather than lead towards it.

QuoteI have discovered, however, that Elgar was a much more mysterious personality than I thought.  His mood swings and occasional rudeness are a little off-putting, but overall he seems to have also had a sense of humor, so it all sort of cancels out.

An interesting way of looking at it, as a set of pluses and minuses; I think the episodes of rudeness tend to spring from, or to hide, his insecurities and tendency to depression, and to understand the cause of an offensive comment sometimes provides a way of not being troubled by it. Of course if I'd been the butt of one of his jibes, I'm sure I'd think differently, but viewing them from a distance isn't the same thing! The really telling fact, though, is the degree to which he seems to have inspired a deep and abiding friendship in those closest to him: Reed, Jaeger, Burley, Dorabella, Windflower, etc. That suggests they understood him pretty well, and mostly recognised the little outbursts for what they were.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 01, 2011, 05:51:23 AM
Just ordered Gibson's Spirit of England disc again. Amazon had informed me about the refund. maybe this time...

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 01, 2011, 03:53:25 AM
Just my luck: I bought Anticipation and No Secrets recently  :(


Sarge

Yeah, I know you did.   :-\ Now you just have to calculate if the 3 other albums are cheaper separately or not. That is if you are going to get them...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 01, 2011, 07:01:54 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 01, 2011, 05:51:23 AM
Just ordered Gibson's Spirit of England disc again. Amazon had informed me about the refund. maybe this time...

Hopefully it works this time for you! I ordered a copy of Gibson's Spirit of England a few weeks ago because of the write ups on this thread, and loving it!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on October 01, 2011, 09:02:47 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 01, 2011, 01:07:52 AM
It's good to touch base sometimes, in these deep exchanges that take us where no previous thinking has led; so yes, let's reassure ourselves that we were talking about Elgar. Speaking of which, I can present the assembled company with (a) two images; and (b) news of an interesting cheap CD set. First, the images:

Sunset on Thursday evening, viewed from the British Camp on the top of the Herefordshire Beacon (the site that inspired the composition of Caractacus)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/SunsetHerefordshirebeacon.jpg)


Elgar's Birthplace cottage, as of yesterday afternoon.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/Elgarbirthplace.jpg)


And finally, the CD set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516uWEtNLCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61dLYD85-lL._AA300_.jpg)

Now this looks interesting for several reasons. First, Bisengaliev released two CDs of Elgar's chamber music some years ago (still available but not usually cheap), and those two CDs are included in this 3-CD set. I've owned one of those for some time, and his violin sonata is definitely worth listening to. However, he has now (much more recently) recorded the violin concerto, and this new recording has been bundled with the two earlier CDs in this very attractive Naxos set, which is cheap enough for me to be able to buy it without worrying about duplicating the sonata CD. I think (but am not yet certain) that this set includes every violin work by Elgar, including some rare oddments. The big question is: what's his violin concerto like? I'll report back when I've listened.

Thanks, Alan, both for the lovely photos and for the alert on this three-fer. I await your verdict comment on the Op.61!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: karlhenning on October 01, 2011, 09:04:00 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 01, 2011, 07:01:54 AM
Hopefully it works this time for you! I ordered a copy of Gibson's Spirit of England a few weeks ago because of the write ups on this thread, and loving it!

Likewise!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 01, 2011, 09:21:57 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 01, 2011, 01:07:52 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516uWEtNLCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) 

The big question is: what's his violin concerto like? I'll report back when I've listened.

And here I am reporting back, and I think his performance of the concerto is pretty damn wonderful. It seems that they have a really fine feeling for Elgar over in Kazakhstan, which is where this recent recording was made. At no stage did I find myself longing for Bean, or Mehuhin, or Kang; on the contrary, I was more than willing to let him take me along on his journey, and a most moving journey it proved to be.

There are certain key moments in the VC that simply have to be right; I'm thinking for instance of the very first entry of the violin; if that doesn't show the necessary sensitivity, if I can't hear the music bleed in that first passage, then I'm going to have doubts about what follows. But there are no doubts here. Bisengaliev understands exactly what's going on: immediately we're into 'longing for the unattainable' territory - that bitter-sweet hovering between delight and pain that so characterises the VC. Another key moment is the beginning of the final movement, and the beginning of the cadenza, where we hear the spooky 'zithering' of strings, ethereal as an aeolian harp. These guys have got that to perfection.

This is a wonderful performance of the concerto that had me close to tears at times, and I fancy I'll be reaching for this one quite often in the future. Certainly anyone who owned only this version would have no reason to feel in any way short-changed.

I found myself thinking again about - well, not thinking so much as drifting among - those old ideas of Elgar's complex longing for the feminine, and the intertwining of notions of mother and lover, public and private. This recording encourages that kind of mental rambling. I don't recall reading any specific mention of the Demeter/Persephone myth in relation to Elgar, but really this concerto seems in many ways the musical embodiment of such ideas. I mean the cycles of mother/daughter/lover/mother, and of death and resurrection like the corn, that lie at the heart of the myth itself. The essentially innocent feminine-orientated hope represented by Kore has to die as she becomes Persephone, Queen of the Underworld; so in the cadenza the music and its windflowers have to die (and they nearly do), in order to be reborn - finally emerging, at least for a while, as winter ends and spring begins. Then, as the cadenza concludes, the orchestra raises its game, and carries the violin back into the light. For a time. Till the next winter; the next death.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on October 11, 2011, 07:11:30 AM
In addition to the Elgar Complete Electrical Recordings set and the Naxos Violin Music set, recent purchases include:

(http://media.jazzstore.com/cache/w200/products-00-0007-00074724-richard-hickox-edward-elgar-the-black-knight-op-25-scenes-from-the-bavarian-highlands-op-27.jpg)

and

(http://www.listenmp3music.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/edward-elgar-songs-and-piano-music-the-works-2-cds.jpg)

which have not arrived yet,

and

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Jun06/Elgar_wind_CHAN241-33.jpg)

which arrived some time ago and which I am thoroughly enjoying.

I finished Reed's book and I loved it from start to finish.  The second section on "Elgar the Composer" was fascinating and right up my alley. 

Section Three on the Third Symphony was enlightening as well.  I wonder what Reed would have thought if he knew that someone did indeed "tinker" with it?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: cilgwyn on October 13, 2011, 11:33:07 AM
I wish Pearl,or some other label.would reissue Elgar's acoustic recordings. I foolishly sold (needed the money!) the Pearl cd set,some years ago,although,I do still have cassette transfers of the recordings in a box. I may transfer some of these to cd,when I can. The electrical recordings are,I suppose,given preferential treatment,but the acoustic recordings are undoubtedly fascinating & have their charms.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 13, 2011, 12:56:43 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 13, 2011, 11:33:07 AM
I wish Pearl,or some other label.would reissue Elgar's acoustic recordings. I foolishly sold (needed the money!) the Pearl cd set,some years ago,although,I do still have cassette transfers of the recordings in a box. I may transfer some of these to cd,when I can. The electrical recordings are,I suppose,given preferential treatment,but the acoustic recordings are undoubtedly fascinating & have their charms.

It's only a very small consolation I'm afraid, but Marie Hall's 1916 recording of the violin concerto is still available, albeit split into 4 sections in a funny order, on this CD:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419EHD3KSNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Me being me, I bought one just so I could rip off the 4 VC sections separately, and weld them back together in the proper sequence.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: cilgwyn on October 15, 2011, 03:43:09 AM
I suppose,being that they are such truly ancient acoustic recordings,my cassette copies wouldn't make THAT much difference if I rip 'em! (Just a little more hiss! ;D )I think I will do this when I have the time. I will try one of the cassettes later. The recording of 'The Starlight Express' is particularly memorable. The absence of these recordings in accessible cd form is a bit of a disgrace really,even if acoustic recordings aren't everyones cup of tea. These are recordings of historic importance & have loads of atmosphere to compensate for the inadequacies of pre-electrical sound. The set also includes an almost uncut recording of his Second Symphony.
Thank goodness,I at least,had the foresight to make tape copies (I didn't have a pc,back then!)& mantain a dolby tape deck! ;D I hope that when they are reissued it won't be via heavy handed CEDAR style interventionist processes. I prefer a little hiss & crackle,myself. Pearl did an excellent job.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: cilgwyn on October 15, 2011, 05:51:31 AM
I located my years old cassette transfers of the Pearl 5 cd box set of the acoustic recordings. Fortunately,I am always very careful about how I store tapes and they sound great. I am now listening to Elgars recordings of his Wand of Youth/Nursery Suite/s and these old c90 transfers are thankfully pretty good,albeit NOT Nakamichi good,but one of my better efforts. At any rate,on my dolby cassete deck the recordings come up very well. These are wonderful recordings,full of poetry and atmosphere & confirm my opinion that reissues of these pre-electrical recordings are way overdue.
Ony one catch. The C90 side turns were done manually & well,we'll see how they go! :o
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: cilgwyn on October 15, 2011, 07:15:28 AM
Update! The first few minutes of 'The Starlight Express' were very clear,but,largely,one channel only (I KNOW it's not stereo,I just mean through one speaker only),fortunately this problem cleared up after a bit & the remaining recordings so far are fine. Presumably modern software would enable me to resolve issues like this?
The recording of The Starlight Express is particularly delightful,all the singers brimming with character. All the more terrible that Elgar never recorded this music again & even : more reason for a reissue ASAP!
Enjoying! :) :) :)

Listening to 'In the South'. Marvellous,fiery,passionate reading which blazes through the limitations of pre-electric recording technology (this was cool once!). Reissues PLEASE!

And now I'm on the Fringes of the Fleet. Not exactly a masterwork,but what a rousing performance,almost vaudeville in places. The theatrical,pantomime laughs just add to the fun of the piece. Wonderful. Reissue please!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 15, 2011, 09:34:49 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 15, 2011, 07:15:28 AM
Presumably modern software would enable me to resolve issues like this?

Yes. There's a free piece of software called Audacity which would enable you to copy the section of music that has survived in the good channel and paste it into the dud channel (to get your double-mono sound back again). It's very good (I've used it for years) and you can download it here:

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/ (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: cilgwyn on October 15, 2011, 04:39:43 PM
Thank you very much for your reply. I am aware of Audacity. In fact,I have downloaded it,but,apart fropm one half hearted go at it,I really haven't done anything with it....yet. Now,I have a reason! I shall have to have a good read up about it. These things can seem complicated at first,but it's just getting the hang of it. I will print all the instructions I can find out. Who knows? If I'm successful,there may even be an upload! Thank you again.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on October 15, 2011, 11:54:44 PM
I see that Sir Mark Elder's recording of 'The Kingdom' has won this year's Gramophone choral award. I have problems with some of Elgar's choral pieces, such as The Apostles. If I say they remind me of Parry, that may suffice. I have never heard 'The Kingdom'. But I have found it on Spotify. I am listening now that award winning performance. I don't think it likely that it will overtake my love of Gerontius, but I am enjoying the lyricism of the solo writing. However the choral material so far sounds a bit four square.

Alan, was Elgar on occasion writing with amateur choirs in mind?

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 16, 2011, 12:21:59 AM
Quote from: knight66 on October 15, 2011, 11:54:44 PM
I see that Sir Mark Elder's recording of 'The Kingdom' has won this year's Gramophone choral award.

That's cool! A must have disc then.

Quote from: knight66 on October 15, 2011, 11:54:44 PMI have problems with some of Elgar's choral pieces, such as The Apostles.

To me Elgar's The Apostles and The Kingdom are among the greatest compositions ever. Boult's versions are all I have so far but they are soooo great!

Quote from: knight66 on October 15, 2011, 11:54:44 PMI don't think it likely that it will overtake my love of Gerontius

Personally I find Gerontius simpler and more "direct" work than The Apostles and The Kingdom which need a deep meditative concentration to be appreciated because there so much thematic material flowing around everywhere. I understand why Gerontius is much more popular work and of course I rate it very high myself too.   

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 16, 2011, 01:39:18 AM
Quote from: knight66 on October 15, 2011, 11:54:44 PM
I see that Sir Mark Elder's recording of 'The Kingdom' has won this year's Gramophone choral award. I have problems with some of Elgar's choral pieces, such as The Apostles. If I say they remind me of Parry, that may suffice. I have never heard 'The Kingdom'. But I have found it on Spotify. I am listening now that award winning performance. I don't think it likely that it will overtake my love of Gerontius, but I am enjoying the lyricism of the solo writing. However the choral material so far sounds a bit four square.

I'm not a great fan of The Kingdom and The Apostles myself Mike; and I'd be quite incapable of making an informed comment on how intrinsically good they are. I did find Boult's recorded 'Introduction' helpful, explaining about the leitmotives, etc, which is included in the EMI box set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61KMCJOWs-L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

But you're an expert in these choral matters, and it may tell you nothing you haven't already perceived yourself.

QuoteAlan, was Elgar on occasion writing with amateur choirs in mind?

I can't remember encountering any reports of any 'dumbing-down' in my reading (though I may just have forgotten any such). But my impression (it's no more than that) is that no concessions of that sort were made. I think Elgar expected the choir to rise to the challenge of his music, rather than the other way round.
I presume what you're suggesting is that they didn't have to rise all that high?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on October 16, 2011, 01:56:15 AM
Alan, Thanks. I have had to break off my listening. But so far the choral writing is very straight forward. Gerontius is  pretty tricky and for sure no concessions were made. I will have to listen through and listen again. 'Apostles' has its fans, some of them distinguished such as Mark Elder. But I cannot connect with it. I wish I could! For me the choral writing is rather by numbers. I note that whereas Richard Strauss commented very favourably on Gerontius; he seems to have been silent on the other works discussed.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 16, 2011, 03:24:22 AM
I have got an impression that there's two types of Elgarians:

Group 1: Those who prefer Gerontius over Apostles & Kingdom AND Symphony #1 over #2.
Group 2: Those who prefer Apostles & Kingdom over Gerontius AND Symphony #2 over #1.

Group 1 is looking for impact factor while group 2 (where I belong to) emphasizes structural complexity in Elgar's music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on October 16, 2011, 03:49:31 AM
Thank you for your impression. And congratulations!

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 16, 2011, 05:13:22 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 16, 2011, 03:24:22 AM
I have got an impression that there's two types of Elgarians:

Group 1: Those who prefer Gerontius over Apostles & Kingdom AND Symphony #1 over #2.
Group 2: Those who prefer Apostles & Kingdom over Gerontius AND Symphony #2 over #1.

Group 1 is looking for impact factor while group 2 (where I belong to) emphasizes structural complexity in Elgar's music.

I'm just wondering which group I fit in! ;)
I love symphony no.2 just that little bit more than no.1, but I'd choose Gerontius over Apostles and Kingdom...  But I suppose I'm more for the impact factor, I don't tend to listen out for structure...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on October 16, 2011, 05:35:32 AM
I think the soundworld and structure of The Kingdom is more reminiscent of the Victorian choral tradition; whereas one aspect of Gerontius that I value is its unique structural oddity. The narrative is wonderfully driven forward, the journey clear. But in the Kingdom, it feels like we are settling in for a night of jolly good, well upholstered, evangelical wallow.

There are lovely stretches, some very beautiful pastoral music and that Elgarian sweep does sometimes emerge. As with Gerontius, the orchestral preludes are as memorable and striking as anything. The idea that Pentecost would be expressed in this very un-hectic, civilised almost becalmed way seems to run counter to what I would expect in bringing the event to life. I think a deal of the solo male music is frankly dull.

'The Sun Goeth Down' conveys that pastoral, ecstatic mysticism that is really memorable in great 'Spirit of England' mode. Reading up on it, the piece was described by Elgar to be the slow movement to a never completed 'symphonically' structured trilogy of post crucifiction narrative pieces. Although it is tempting to suggest is ought to be listened to as though the slow movement of such an enormous symphony; for my taste it is too reverential and a bit dull.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on October 27, 2011, 09:52:13 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 01, 2011, 04:17:05 AM
Given that you're so obviously enjoying Reed I'd say, even more emphatically than before, that you'd find it worth trying to get hold of Burley and Powell. That smack of 'I was there' that you're responding to is irresistible in all of them.

He is, and all Elgarians are in great debt to the man. But I've never warmed to his manner of writing, which comes in staccato bursts of information that I find hard to absorb or enjoy. I've just been rereading his Elgar - Child of Dreams, which has a very real and valuable case to make, with a core of real insight at its heart ... but oh, it's so frustrating to read. I feel always on the verge of being overwhelmed by the torrent of fact interspersed with musical examples that somehow seem to distract attention from his central case rather than lead towards it.

An interesting way of looking at it, as a set of pluses and minuses; I think the episodes of rudeness tend to spring from, or to hide, his insecurities and tendency to depression, and to understand the cause of an offensive comment sometimes provides a way of not being troubled by it. Of course if I'd been the butt of one of his jibes, I'm sure I'd think differently, but viewing them from a distance isn't the same thing! The really telling fact, though, is the degree to which he seems to have inspired a deep and abiding friendship in those closest to him: Reed, Jaeger, Burley, Dorabella, Windflower, etc. That suggests they understood him pretty well, and mostly recognised the little outbursts for what they were.


This past weekend I went to the main branch of my local library system and, lo and behold, there were a lot more books on Elgar than the computer web-site indicated.  In fact, I found a copy of almost every book on Elgar I've ever heard of (except the newer "Windflower" one).

In addition to the Rosa Burley book, I also picked up a book containing Elgar's university lectures.

The complete Moore biography arrived in the mail last week, so I'm starting in on that as well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 27, 2011, 11:28:43 AM
Quote from: Vesteralen on October 27, 2011, 09:52:13 AM
In addition to the Rosa Burley book,

Oh you'll like that. Very different - she doesn't 'coo' like Dorabella, and she doesn't adopt Billy Reed's reverence. She tells it like she saw it. She is, after all, the woman who claimed not to be a variation, but to be the theme!

QuoteI also picked up a book containing Elgar's university lectures.

Didn't even know they'd been published. Words weren't his strong point, so I wouldn't get your hopes up on that one. (His Birmingham Chair was a bit of a catastrophe by all accounts.)

QuoteThe complete Moore biography arrived in the mail last week, so I'm starting in on that as well.

Definitive and essential, but I use it for reference, not to read for fun. Good luck!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 30, 2011, 02:19:47 AM
So, the Coronation Ode/The Spirit of England disc on Chandos arrived about 2 weeks ago. This was my second purchase of this CD because the first one never arrived and I was refunded. I had only one versions of these works before:

Coronation Ode: Philip Ledger 1977 on EMI
The Spirit of England: Richard Hickox 1987 on EMI

I have been happy with these performances.

How well did Gibson do? I seem to prefer Ledger's Coronation Ode but Gibson seems to win Hickox with his The Spirit of England. The difference is not huge.

I was surprised to read that these Gibson performances (Dec. 1976) are the first recordings ever published of these works!

Anyway, the loooong process of getting this disc is now over.  :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 30, 2011, 02:46:11 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 30, 2011, 02:19:47 AMGibson seems to win Hickox with his The Spirit of England. The difference is not huge.

Of course one person's small difference can be another's huge one. But you might like to try focusing on the soprano soloist. Teresa Cahill introduces a dimension of expression that Felicity Lott seems unaware of. Try, for instance, comparing the very first solo entry 'Spirit of England go before us...' The word 'England' is just a word for Lott, and she just sings the notes. But Cahill understands what Elgar means by it, and turns the two syllables (listen to the way she scoops up the first syllable, as if raising it from earth to sky) into a soaring cri-de-ceour. Her entire performance is studded with such moments.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 30, 2011, 07:59:43 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 30, 2011, 02:46:11 AM
Of course one person's small difference can be another's huge one. But you might like to try focusing on the soprano soloist. Teresa Cahill introduces a dimension of expression that Felicity Lott seems unaware of. Try, for instance, comparing the very first solo entry 'Spirit of England go before us...' The word 'England' is just a word for Lott, and she just sings the notes. But Cahill understands what Elgar means by it, and turns the two syllables (listen to the way she scoops up the first syllable, as if raising it from earth to sky) into a soaring cri-de-ceour. Her entire performance is studded with such moments.

Since the Gibson CD is new to me and I have listened to it only one time so far, I'm affaid I haven't focused to anything yet. What I wrote was my first impression and is likely to change in time. Thanks for the hints anyway! I will concentrate on Cahill's singing the next time I give this disc a spin.

Of course, I probably understand even less than Lott what Elgar means by the word "England" because I am a Finn but I can always listen to the syllables according to your instructions.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 30, 2011, 08:57:19 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 30, 2011, 07:59:43 AMOf course, I probably understand even less than Lott what Elgar means by the word "England" because I am a Finn but I can always listen to the syllables according to your instructions.  ;)

It may be that it has a special resonance for someone who's English, and yet I think you'd still be able to recognise that Cahill is investing the sung word with additional expression (even if it remains vague just what is being expressed) that is absent from Lott.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 03, 2011, 11:06:28 AM
No musical reason why I've been so long absent from the Hillside.  A month ago I seriously reorganized CDs at home, part of a larger space-reclamation project, so the Elgar hasn't been so close to hand, though I have an excellent idea where to turn to.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on November 03, 2011, 12:35:25 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 03, 2011, 11:06:28 AM
A month ago I seriously reorganized CDs at home, part of a larger space-reclamation project, so the Elgar hasn't been so close to hand, though I have an excellent idea where to turn to.

I've engaged in a major reshuffle myself, Karl. The possibility of shelving everything just became impossible (existing non-CD walls already covered by books and pictures), and I've arrived at a system of individual labelled and stacked boxes - a Handel box, a Mozart box, a Haydn box, etc - which is working far better than I'd hoped; but Elgar stays out on existing shelves, as a fixed point in this movable CD universe.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: cilgwyn on November 27, 2011, 02:17:50 PM
Absolutely wonderful news that Elgars pre electrical recordings are going to be finally re-released as a 4cd box set from Music & Arts. Release date : December 12th. This IS definately on my list! I just wonder how it will compare with the Pearl 5cd (!) box set,which,like a fool I sold! :(

(http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/716/51xvfhepnvlss500.jpg)

Amazon.co.uk price:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Conducts-Elgar-Complete-Recordings/dp/B005SQ3AU8 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Conducts-Elgar-Complete-Recordings/dp/B005SQ3AU8)

Hope the link works;if not,it's there! :)

The Elgar Foundation has got full cd by cd track listings on it's website:

http://www.elgarfoundation.org/index.php/the-elgar-shop/product/688/5/CDs/Elgar-Conducts (http://www.elgarfoundation.org/index.php/the-elgar-shop/product/688/5/CDs/Elgar-Conducts)

Described as a 'revelation',the Elgar foundation also have a link to a pdf of a detailed review of the new transfers in the Elgar Society Journal,which you can read even if you're not a member.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on November 28, 2011, 01:20:26 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 27, 2011, 02:17:50 PM
Absolutely wonderful news that Elgars pre electrical recordings are going to be finally re-released as a 4cd box set from Music & Arts. Release date : December 12th. This IS definately on my list! I just wonder how it will compare with the Pearl 5cd (!) box set,which,like a fool I sold! :(

(http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/716/51xvfhepnvlss500.jpg)

Amazon.co.uk price:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Conducts-Elgar-Complete-Recordings/dp/B005SQ3AU8 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Conducts-Elgar-Complete-Recordings/dp/B005SQ3AU8)

Hope the link works;if not,it's there! :)

The Elgar Foundation has got full cd by cd track listings on it's website:

http://www.elgarfoundation.org/index.php/the-elgar-shop/product/688/5/CDs/Elgar-Conducts (http://www.elgarfoundation.org/index.php/the-elgar-shop/product/688/5/CDs/Elgar-Conducts)

Described as a 'revelation',the Elgar foundation also have a link to a pdf of a detailed review of the new transfers in the Elgar Society Journal,which you can read even if you're not a member.

Oh you wonderful man - thank you very much indeed for posting this. I'll pre-order my copy as soon as I've finished writing this. I was talking to the good folks at the Elgar Birthplace Museum about this possibility, last time I was there (not so many months ago), and it seemed remote. But here it is! Bloomin' marvellous!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: cilgwyn on November 29, 2011, 12:38:33 AM
Glad to help! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 30, 2011, 07:20:26 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on November 30, 2011, 07:15:27 AM
Edward Elgar
Violin Concerto

[asin]B0002CX4Q8[/asin]

This reminds me . . . Alan, how do you like la Hahn in the Op.61?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on November 30, 2011, 07:28:17 AM
+If I may, does our resident Elgarian know this recording?

[asin]B00004SDO9[/asin]
It's nice to see his orchestration of the Handel (which I have not heard) instead of the more obvious marches as filler.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 30, 2011, 07:47:40 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 30, 2011, 07:28:17 AM
+If I may, does our resident Elgarian know this recording?
[asin]B00004SDO9[/asin]
It's nice to see his orchestration of the Handel (which I have not heard) instead of the more obvious marches as filler.

Let the resident Mahlerian reply as well! ;)
One of my favourite Elgar discs of all - absolutely brilliant. And yes, the orchestration of the Handel is great. After this excellent disc, I have to admit I felt rather let down by the Elgar 2 with the same combination of performers... but this disc of the overtures remains a firm favourite.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 30, 2011, 07:48:48 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 30, 2011, 07:28:17 AM
+If I may, does our resident Elgarian know this recording?

[asin]B00004SDO9[/asin]
It's nice to see his orchestration of the Handel (which I have not heard) instead of the more obvious marches as filler.

I have this (with another cover art). It is a very good recording in my opinion and I can easily recommend it. Elgar's overtures nicely in one package + Handel overture as a bonus!  :)

I agree that the marches are "fillers" too often.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on November 30, 2011, 09:25:59 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 30, 2011, 07:20:26 AM
This reminds me . . . Alan, how do you like la Hahn in the Op.61?

I thought we'd discussed this Karl (since you were kind enough to send it to me, I must have been very remiss! My apologies.)

I more or less agree with you. Insofar as I think I understand the VC (and others may challenge that, very sensibly), I'd say she hasn't got it. She seems to play the notes right, and she makes a pretty sound, but the depth of it seems missing. Compared to Tasmin Little's recent effort, which sounds like (and is)  the result of a lifetime's contemplation of the piece, it strikes me as lightweight.

I say this, yet have no conception of the immense technical difficulties faced by any violinist who approaches the work. So I say it in all humility, purely in terms of what I'm looking for, and whether I find it. I may have missed other qualities that it has.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on November 30, 2011, 09:29:21 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 30, 2011, 07:28:17 AM
+If I may, does our resident Elgarian know this recording?

No he doesn't. Sounds like maybe he should....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 30, 2011, 09:30:28 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on November 30, 2011, 09:25:59 AM
I thought we'd discussed this Karl (since you were kind enough to send it to me, I must have been very remiss! My apologies.)

I more or less agree with you. Insofar as I think I understand the VC (and others may challenge that, very sensibly), I'd say she hasn't got it. She seems to play the notes right, and she makes a pretty sound, but the depth of it seems missing. Compared to Tasmin Little's recent effort, which sounds like (and is)  the result of a lifetime's contemplation of the piece, it strikes me as lightweight.

I say this, yet have no conception of the immense technical difficulties faced by any violinist who approaches the work. So I say it in all humility, purely in terms of what I'm looking for, and whether I find it. I may have missed other qualities that it has.

Thank you, sieur! I am glad, since, to have listened to her recording of the Ives sonatas, which is very good . . . as the recording of the Elgar did not give me the best impression of her capabilities.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 30, 2011, 09:32:19 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on November 30, 2011, 09:29:21 AM
No he doesn't. Sounds like maybe he should....

He most certainly should! Excellent disc! Buy it, now!  :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on November 30, 2011, 11:09:22 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 30, 2011, 09:32:19 AM
He most certainly should! Excellent disc! Buy it, now!  :D

Unfortunately (so I understand) he has recently brought himself close to bankruptcy by his reckless and irresponsibly excessive purchases of Haydn recordings.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 30, 2011, 11:12:14 AM
Gurn is such a nice chap . . . he cannot have intended your ruination, Alan . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on November 30, 2011, 11:22:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 30, 2011, 09:30:28 AM
Thank you, sieur! I am glad, since, to have listened to her recording of the Ives sonatas, which is very good . . . as the recording of the Elgar did not give me the best impression of her capabilities.
Can't say I'm thrilled by Hahn's Elgar VC recording, either, not that it's bad, but I'm partial to Kennedy--but the RVW Lark on Hahn's disc is to die for.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on November 30, 2011, 11:24:00 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 30, 2011, 11:22:09 AM
but the RVW Lark on Hahn's disc is to die for.
That wouldn't surprise me. Very different kettle of fish birds.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 30, 2011, 01:50:07 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on November 30, 2011, 11:09:22 AM
Unfortunately (so I understand) he has recently brought himself close to bankruptcy by his reckless and irresponsibly excessive purchases of Haydn recordings.

Oh dear. He has my sympathy. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on December 05, 2011, 11:13:03 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 27, 2011, 11:28:43 AM
Oh you'll like that. Very different - she doesn't 'coo' like Dorabella, and she doesn't adopt Billy Reed's reverence. She tells it like she saw it. She is, after all, the woman who claimed not to be a variation, but to be the theme!


I came away from this book with a very high opinion of Miss Burley, and a much, much lower one of Elgar.  She continuously and forcefully proclaims his genius but, in spite of the excuses she purports to find for his boorishness, effectively destroys my sympathy with him as a human being.

What his music tells me is still there, of course, don't get me wrong.  But, I really came away from this book wondering how the person described therein could ever have produced it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 05, 2011, 12:47:23 PM
Quote from: Vesteralen on December 05, 2011, 11:13:03 AM
I came away from this book with a very high opinion of Miss Burley, and a much, much lower one of Elgar.  She continuously and forcefully proclaims his genius but, in spite of the excuses she purports to find for his boorishness, effectively destroys my sympathy with him as a human being.

What his music tells me is still there, of course, don't get me wrong.  But, I really came away from this book wondering how the person described therein could ever have produced it.

Interesting! I come away with a not particularly high regard for Miss Burley! I'm pretty sure that half an hour in her company would be all I could tolerate. I think she had an axe to grind. I'm not sure what it was, but I think there was an element of 'bringing him down to size', and of striving to assert the importance of her role. It's by no means a balanced account (none of the 'I knew Elgar' accounts are balanced - that's partly why they're so compelling: each one shows us Elgar through a different lens). I'm not saying Elgar didn't have plenty of rough edges; and I'm sure there would have been times when his friendship would be trying. But a man who can retain the affection and admiration of characters as disparate as Dora Penny, Billy Reed, and Jaeger must have had something going for him apart from being a great composer.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on December 06, 2011, 04:38:10 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 05, 2011, 12:47:23 PM
Interesting! I come away with a not particularly high regard for Miss Burley! I'm pretty sure that half an hour in her company would be all I could tolerate. I think she had an axe to grind. I'm not sure what it was, but I think there was an element of 'bringing him down to size', and of striving to assert the importance of her role. It's by no means a balanced account (none of the 'I knew Elgar' accounts are balanced - that's partly why they're so compelling: each one shows us Elgar through a different lens). I'm not saying Elgar didn't have plenty of rough edges; and I'm sure there would have been times when his friendship would be trying. But a man who can retain the affection and admiration of characters as disparate as Dora Penny, Billy Reed, and Jaeger must have had something going for him apart from being a great composer.

Well, that's certainly food for thought.

I want to think the best of Elgar.  After all, it's hard to imagine the composer of the Enigma Variations was without a scrap of empathy in his being, as Miss Burley might lead one to believe. 

On the other hand, it can't be denied that a number of composers of some of the world's most moving music, music that seems to echo the human condition with all its varied facets (Beethoven and Brahms come immediately to mind) were apparently egocentric, irascible and generally unfriendly people.  It's one of the great mysteries, in a way.

It's interesting to me that two such different accounts of Elgar's life as Reed's and Burley's could each individually have the ring of truth about them.

Taking everything in to account, what would you say would be a balanced way of looking at Elgar the man?

(I'm going to add on to this, since I've been thinking more about it while working)

Perhaps another factor that enters into this that should be mentioned is that the excuse that Rosa Burley gives for Elgar's tactlessness and lack of fellow feeling doesn't resonate easily with most of us - his emotional hurt and sensitivity over his socio-economic background within the class-conscious English society of his day.

When it comes to Beethoven or Brahms, few people even today, even if they have no personal experiences of a similar nature, would find it hard to sympathize with a young boy brutalized by a drunken father, or a young boy taken advantage of by prostitutes in a brothel where he had to play the piano for money.

But, how can we have the same fellow-feeling for Elgar's resentment over his social status, especially when thousands of other people of his day and age experienced the same thing without its causing such bitterness and insensitivity?  This is where I'd like to be more enlightened.  Is there reason to sympathize with him more, or is there something more to his makeup than this particular experience to begin with?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 06, 2011, 06:53:15 AM
Quote from: Vesteralen on December 06, 2011, 04:38:10 AM
Perhaps another factor that enters into this that should be mentioned is that the excuse that Rosa Burley gives for Elgar's tactlessness and lack of fellow feeling doesn't resonate easily with most of us - his emotional hurt and sensitivity over his socio-economic background within the class-conscious English society But, how can we have the same fellow-feeling for Elgar's resentment over his social status, especially when thousands of other people of his day and age experienced the same thing without its causing such bitterness and insensitivity?  This is where I'd like to be more enlightened.  Is there reason to sympathize with him more, or is there something more to his makeup than this particular experience to begin with?

The way I see it is that (a) he was deeply neurotic (yes I know we all are, but Elgar very much so); (b) he was an intensely sensitive individual. I think that sensitivity pervades all his great music; the violin concerto alone is, I'd say, a painful autobiographical statement quite apart from being a musical masterpiece.

Combine those characteristics with (a) his family background in trade; and (b) his Catholicism, seen in the context of his aspirations in the society of his day, and I think we need look no further for explanations of much of his 'bad behaviour'. I don't say it excuses it; I just say that we can't know what his moment-to-moment experience of being alive was like. I think there was a lot of pain mixed into it.

As for Rosa Burley, I feel uneasy about her account, and the way she tells it - particularly when contrasted with Dora's, Billy's, and the long and deep friendships he was able to sustain with others. I don't say the basic facts are wrong, but (as always) there's always more than one way to recount them. And it is pretty clear, don't you think, that she felt some grievance towards Elgar? I think that comes through, and will have clouded her memories and judgment.

The outcome of all my reading and listening is this: if I could invite a handful of historical characters to dinner, Elgar would be top of my list. I might expect that at some point in the evening, I might get a rebuff or two. OK. He'd still be top of my list, because his account is so enormously in credit. Just as he'd have been at the top of Dora's, Billy's, and Nimrod's, and a host of others - and for all the right reasons.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on December 06, 2011, 08:03:31 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 06, 2011, 06:53:15 AM
As for Rosa Burley, I feel uneasy about her account, and the way she tells it - particularly when contrasted with Dora's, Billy's, and the long and deep friendships he was able to sustain with others. I don't say the basic facts are wrong, but (as always) there's always more than one way to recount them. And it is pretty clear, don't you think, that she felt some grievance towards Elgar? I think that comes through, and will have clouded her memories and judgment.

The outcome of all my reading and listening is this: if I could invite a handful of historical characters to dinner, Elgar would be top of my list. I might expect that at some point in the evening, I might get a rebuff or two. OK. He'd still be top of my list, because his account is so enormously in credit. Just as he'd have been at the top of Dora's, Billy's, and Nimrod's, and a host of others - and for all the right reasons.

Well, it has helped me having you assist me to view Rosa Burley's account with a more critical eye.  (Input of this nature, by the way, is one of the few things that makes participation in a site like this worthwhile.  I've cut way back on my board involvement, but there are these exceptional circumstances.) 

And, although the presence of both Elgar and Mrs Elgar might make for too much of an on-edge experience for good digestion, I might take my chances on a dinner with Elgar himself.  Maybe asking him about chemistry or bicycling instead of music would be a good plan.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 06, 2011, 08:09:38 AM
How about them Orioles?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 06, 2011, 10:42:06 AM
Quote from: Vesteralen on December 06, 2011, 08:03:31 AM
Maybe asking him about chemistry or bicycling instead of music would be a good plan.  ;)

Spot on. If one were expecting Elgar, it would be necessary to have a supply of test tubes and a good stock of basic materials like copper sulphate and granulated zinc, as well as a working knowledge of the mechanics of the Royal Sunbeam bicycle.

I suspect that the outcome of such conversation would be that he would then invite you to dinner.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 06, 2011, 10:56:22 AM
. . . she makes meatloaf which tastes like wing nuts . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 06, 2011, 11:05:36 AM
I'd like to add something too. I have not read the books on Elgar, but in your discussions over the last few pages, something jumped out at me. These authors are writing two things: 1) Recounting the facts of the composer's life and 2) Telling a story about the composer's life (essentially interpreting #1). It is with #2 that we get in trouble. If I yell at someone, am I rude? What if I really freak out and raise my voice? The fact is I did those things. But maybe I didn't like you. Or maybe you stepped on my toe and hurt me? Or maybe you are about to get run over by a car and I am trying to warn you? I think you see where I am going with us.

We are getting third party interpretations of the facts, and there is always risk in that. That risk can go the other way too, where the author tries to play down or explain away imperfections.  There is also #3, a little sensationalism never hurt sales. And there is also #4, she may be trying to show us how smart and important she is. Or it could just be her style of story telling. Whatever the case, I find that these types of imperfections help me to appreciate the music even more. If the composer had to be morally good and kind all the time, well there would be few composers we would listen to. They all make mistakes, and that is part of makes them human (as well as the composer they are and will be). We can learn from that (on both a personal and musical level).

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 06, 2011, 11:55:27 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 06, 2011, 11:05:36 AM
I'd like to add something too. I have not read the books on Elgar, but in your discussions over the last few pages, something jumped out at me. These authors are writing two things: 1) Recounting the facts of the composer's life and 2) Telling a story about the composer's life (essentially interpreting #1). It is with #2 that we get in trouble. If I yell at someone, am I rude? What if I really freak out and raise my voice? The fact is I did those things. But maybe I didn't like you. Or maybe you stepped on my toe and hurt me? Or maybe you are about to get run over by a car and I am trying to warn you? I think you see where I am going with us.

We are getting third party interpretations of the facts, and there is always risk in that. That risk can go the other way too, where the author tries to play down or explain away imperfections.  There is also #3, a little sensationalism never hurt sales. And there is also #4, she may be trying to show us how smart and important she is. Or it could just be her style of story telling. Whatever the case, I find that these types of imperfections help me to appreciate the music even more. If the composer had to be morally good and kind all the time, well there would be few composers we would listen to. They all make mistakes, and that is part of makes them human (as well as the composer they are and will be). We can learn from that (on both a personal and musical level).

All eminently sensible stuff! Thanks for this. The colouring added by the writer is all part of the richness, part of the value of reading their work, isn't it? Dorabella's adoration of Elgar and Alice leaps out of every page, for example.  She was a Variation for heaven's sake (an exceedingly limited and exalted company), and it was so obviously one of the most important events of her life to have been so singled out. Rosa Burley, interestingly, was not; and I think that may partly explain some of the headmistress-ish tone of her writing. (Though of course there's also the fact that she was a headmistress .....)  'I was the theme!', she said. Good humoured, bitter, or cynical joke? Or outrageous swanking?

And we mustn't forget the story of Wittgenstein's Poker. In 1946, when Karl Popper addressed a group of Cambridge philosophers, including Ludwig Wittgenstein and Bertrand Russell, on the topic 'Are there philosophical problems?', there was a famous altercation between Wittgenstein and Popper involving Wittgenstein brandishing a poker. Many people were present to observe this, and yet no two descriptions of the event are  the same. The poker was, variously, red hot, cold, brandished threateningly, merely toyed with, or used as a pointer, thrown down into the fireplace with a clatter, or merely replaced; Wittgenstein stormed out slamming the door, or left quietly before the end. And on and on go the discrepancies concerning who was angry with whom, and how much. Take your pick.

So what was really going on when Elgar hit Dorabella's arm at the dinner table? How can we ever know? Is that what the cello concerto was really all about?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on December 08, 2011, 02:41:11 PM
Upon going to rip one CD, the online tagging database suggested the following name for his Op.77:

A Voice in the Dessert

I'm sure that a far more witty person could make something of this material.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2011, 01:59:04 AM
Was it a tart voice?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on December 09, 2011, 07:51:18 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 09, 2011, 01:59:04 AM
Was it a tart voice?

I would think it would more on the sugary side myself.
And possibly a little overbaked.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on December 10, 2011, 10:26:48 AM
This week I have been hearing the beginning of Elgar's first symphony in my head, and I've only heard it once before. I have one recording of it so I listened to it this morning and again was transported into this sublime work. I don't have the details of the recording with me now (age and bad memory) but now I want to explore this music and I'm about to hear the second symphony for I believe is the first time :) (Andrew Davis conducting)



Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 10, 2011, 12:43:31 PM
Quote from: Leo K on December 10, 2011, 10:26:48 AM
This week I have been hearing the beginning of Elgar's first symphony in my head, and I've only heard it once before. I have one recording of it so I listened to it this morning and again was transported into this sublime work.

I understand completely. I first heard it when I was sixteen, and my response was something along the lines of 'My God, so this is what music can be ...' It remains, over 40 years later, the symphony I love most above all others. I feel as if it stamped its essence deeply and permanently inside me, once and for all.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 10, 2011, 01:12:28 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 10, 2011, 12:43:31 PM
I first heard it when I was sixteen, and my response was something along the lines of 'My God, so this is what music can be ...'

The first time I heard Enigma Variations (it was played on a classical radio station) I had that response. I had found Elgar.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 11, 2011, 03:22:31 AM
Quote from: Leo K on December 10, 2011, 10:26:48 AM
This week I have been hearing the beginning of Elgar's first symphony in my head, and I've only heard it once before. I have one recording of it so I listened to it this morning and again was transported into this sublime work. I don't have the details of the recording with me now (age and bad memory) but now I want to explore this music and I'm about to hear the second symphony for I believe is the first time :) (Andrew Davis conducting)

I completely understand what you are going through as well. . For me, I found the second symphony even more of a powerful emotional experience than the first. I love the two symphonies so so much though, two of my favourite works ever written, but if I had to pick a favourite out of the two, it would have to be the second. Such a magical piece.
Let us know what you thought of the second symphony. I wouldn't have chosen Andrew Davis' recording.... I prefer Solti, or Elder, and of course Boult.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 03:41:31 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 11, 2011, 03:22:31 AMI wouldn't have chosen Andrew Davis' recording.... I prefer Solti, or Elder, and of course Boult.

I haven't heard Andrew Davis' Second but I notice the Penguin people think highly of it, placing it second in the 1996 edition. They only lament the fact he omits the organ in the Finale. Tate and Sinopoli are my favorite Seconds.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 11, 2011, 03:52:36 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 03:41:31 AM
I haven't heard Andrew Davis' Second but I notice the Penguin people think highly of it, placing it second in the 1996 edition. They only lament the fact he omits the organ in the Finale. Tate and Sinopoli are my favorite Seconds.

Sarge

hmmm.... well, for me, it lacks enthusiasm, and the orchestra are not as well recorded as they are in other recordings such as the Elder. I really love recordings that include the organ in the finale - the Slatkin recording is an amazing example of this. I remember when I first heard Elgar 2, it was a proms performance with the BBC Philharmonic/Sinaisky (a wonderful Elgarian!), and I was behind the orchestra in the choir seats, right next to the organ, so just imagine how amazing an experience it was for me, hearing Elgar 2 for the first time right next to the organ for the climax in the final movement.... I could feel the floor shaking with the vibrations from the spectacular Royal Albert Hall organ, it was an amazing experience.
My favourite Elgar 2s: Solti, Elder, both Boults, Slatkin, Handley.... 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 04:04:35 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 11, 2011, 03:52:36 AM
hmmm.... well, for me, it lacks enthusiasm, and the orchestra are not as well recorded as they are in other recordings....

Two more reasons not to invest in the A. Davis set. I shall continue to pass it by.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 04:07:41 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 11, 2011, 03:52:36 AM....the Slatkin recording is an amazing example of this.

I've only spun my recently purchased Slatkin Second once. I'll listen again this afternoon (after DLvdE finishes).

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 11, 2011, 04:14:55 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 04:04:35 AM
Two more reasons not to invest in the A. Davis set. I shall continue to pass it by.

Sarge

Yes, probably for the best. Overall, it's not the greatest set. In all of the performances, apart from some of the miniatures, there is the lack of the magic that Elgar's music so obviously displays through other performances, which is a shame.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 04:07:41 AM
I've only spun by recently purchased Slatkin Second once. I'll listen again this afternoon (after DLvdE finishes).

Sarge

I think I might listen to it this afternoon as well... thanks for giving me the idea Sarge! DLvdE.... enjoy!  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 04:22:48 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 11, 2011, 04:14:55 AMDLvdE.... enjoy!  :)

It's a mixed bag. Love Mahler, love Heppner, love Maazel's individual way with Mahler (although he's not as idiosyncratic in Das Lied as elsewhere) but I've never warmed to Meier's tone. She's lovely to look at on stage but she's less lovely to listen to.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 11, 2011, 04:32:00 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 04:22:48 AM
It's a mixed bag. Love Mahler, love Heppner, love Maazel's individual way with Mahler (although he's not as idiosyncratic in Das Lied as elsewhere) but I've never warmed to Meier's tone. She's lovely to look at on stage but she's less lovely to listen to.

Sarge

Ah, Heppner is great, I agree. And I too love Maazel's individuality in Mahler, this year I have been lucky enough to see three excellent performances in his Mahler cycle with the Philharmonia, live, I saw no.1, 6 and 9. I sort of agree with you with Meier. Which is your favourite recording of DLvdE? Mine would probably be Haitink or Klemperer.

Let me know what you think of the Slatkin Elgar 2! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 11, 2011, 04:39:40 AM
You guys are prompting me to revisit the Davis recording of the Symphonies.  I just do not remember being at all so execrable as that ; )
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 04:51:46 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 11, 2011, 04:32:00 AM
Which is your favourite recording of DLvdE? Mine would probably be Haitink or Klemperer.

Yeah, Haitink and Klemp go to the desert island with me. Beyond those two, and among the 18 versions I own, I think most highly of

Kurt Sanderling/Schreier/Finnila

Solti/Kollo/Minton

Oue/Villars/DeYoung

Horenstein/Mitchinson/Hodgson

Davis/Vickers/Norman (not for the faint-hearted  ;D )

(Although both Kletzki and Bernstein are terrific, I prefer tenor/alto versions)


Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 04:57:45 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 11, 2011, 04:39:40 AMI just do not remember being at all so execrable as that[/font] ; )

I don't know that they are, Karl. I haven't heard any of A. Davis' Elgar. As I said, the boys at Penguin think quite highly of it of though. Still, nothing I've read here or elsewhere makes me think it's an essential purchase for this Elgarian. Perhaps I'd change my mind if I actually heard them. But at some point enough enough and enough, and with ten Seconds in my collection, that's probably enough.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 11, 2011, 04:59:28 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 11, 2011, 04:39:40 AM
You guys are prompting me to revisit the Davis recording of the Symphonies.  I just do not remember being at all so execrable as that ; )

It's not bad, Karl! Just not the best! I'd have around 10 - 15 other recordings of the Elgar symphonies that I would put above it. :)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 04:51:46 AM
Yeah, Haitink and Klemp go to the desert island with me. Beyond those two, and among the 18 versions I own, I think most highly of

Kurt Sanderling/Schreier/Finnila

Solti/Kollo/Minton

Oue/DeYoung/Villars

Horenstein/Mitchinson/Hodgson

Davis/Norman/Vickers (not for the faint-hearted  ;D )


Sarge

You have more recordings of DLvdE than me! I haven't heard some of the recordings that you mention - although certainly agree that the Solti and Horenstein are excellent! Haitink tends to be the one that I always go back to though - I'd rate it as one of his greatest Mahler recordings.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 05:15:05 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 11, 2011, 04:59:28 AM
You have more recordings of DLvdE than me!

Well, I've been at it a little longer than you ;)  But you're way beyond me when I was your age. I didn't own any Mahler. I had to make do with a few library recordings, the occasional, very occasional, radio broadcast, and hearing Szell live doing the Sixth. Didn't actually own Mahler until I was 22. First purchase, Horenstein's Third.

Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 11, 2011, 04:59:28 AM
I haven't heard some of the recordings that you mention - although certainly agree that the Solti and Horenstein are excellent! Haitink tends to be the one that I always go back to though - I'd rate it as one of his greatest Mahler recordings.

Baker is...I have to be careful here, the definition police are lurking....incomparable.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 11, 2011, 05:27:15 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 05:15:05 AM
Well, I've been at it a little longer than you ;)  But you're way beyond me when I was your age. I didn't own any Mahler. I had to make do with a few library recordings, the occasional, very occasional, radio broadcast, and hearing Szell live doing the Sixth. Didn't actually own Mahler until I was 22. First purchase, Horenstein's Third.

Baker is...I have to be careful here, the definition police are lurking....incomparable.

Sarge
Have you heard Bertini? I enjoy his a lot too (Heppner in particular).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 06:22:01 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 11, 2011, 05:27:15 AM
Have you heard Bertini? I enjoy his a lot too (Heppner in particular).

I have it...haven't heard it. Will remedy that soon. After the Maazel DLvdE, I started Horenstein....and couldn't stop  ;D

Thread duty: Elgar 2 Slatkin will begin somewhat later than originally scheduled.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 11, 2011, 09:13:12 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 04:57:45 AM
I don't know that they are, Karl. I haven't heard any of A. Davis' Elgar. As I said, the boys at Penguin think quite highly of it of though. Still, nothing I've read here or elsewhere makes me think it's an essential purchase for this Elgarian. Perhaps I'd change my mind if I actually heard them. But at some point enough enough and enough, and with ten Seconds in my collection, that's probably enough.

Ho capito, Sarge! And in all events, we share admiration for the Tate/LSO.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on December 11, 2011, 09:16:09 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 11, 2011, 03:52:36 AM
hmmm.... well, for me, it lacks enthusiasm, and the orchestra are not as well recorded as they are in other recordings such as the Elder. I really love recordings that include the organ in the finale - the Slatkin recording is an amazing example of this. I remember when I first heard Elgar 2, it was a proms performance with the BBC Philharmonic/Sinaisky (a wonderful Elgarian!), and I was behind the orchestra in the choir seats, right next to the organ, so just imagine how amazing an experience it was for me, hearing Elgar 2 for the first time right next to the organ for the climax in the final movement.... I could feel the floor shaking with the vibrations from the spectacular Royal Albert Hall organ, it was an amazing experience.
My favourite Elgar 2s: Solti, Elder, both Boults, Slatkin, Handley....

Much thanks for your thoughts!

I am going to seek out another recording of the 2nd to get a different take, but I was deeply moved by my first listen to Elgar's 2nd, and can't wait to hear it a second time to get a better handle on it. There is so much beauty and the structure of this work is all so new all I can do is get taken by the current!

8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on December 11, 2011, 09:23:56 AM
First I'm going to listen to the 1st again...wow, this work...it's incredible and just my cup of tea!

By the way, I've got the Bryden Thomson account with the LPO.


(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/5b/d1/7d57c060ada0f911afeaf110.L._AA300_.jpg)




Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on December 11, 2011, 09:37:16 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 10, 2011, 12:43:31 PM
I understand completely. I first heard it when I was sixteen, and my response was something along the lines of 'My God, so this is what music can be ...' It remains, over 40 years later, the symphony I love most above all others. I feel as if it stamped its essence deeply and permanently inside me, once and for all.

Thanks Elgarian,

I played violin in my high school orchestra, and remember playing in graduating ceromonies, and the high point was playing a "Pomp and Circumstance" march by Elgar, and I was very moved by the music each time we practiced the work. It was memorable, and I don't know why I waited all these years to listen to more Elgar!

8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 11, 2011, 09:58:21 AM
Quote from: Leo K on December 11, 2011, 09:37:16 AM
I don't know why I waited all these years to listen to more Elgar! 8)

Better later than never!  ;)

Nice to read people finding Elgar's music and appreciating it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on December 11, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
Quote from: Leo K on December 11, 2011, 09:23:56 AM
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/5b/d1/7d57c060ada0f911afeaf110.L._AA300_.jpg)

What an intriguing painting - I was prompted to look it up, and it was by somebody I didn't know of until now. I like it when labels do that :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 12, 2011, 08:43:51 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 05:15:05 AM
and hearing Szell live doing the Sixth.


That must have been amazing....
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 06:22:01 AM
I have it...haven't heard it. Will remedy that soon. After the Maazel DLvdE, I started Horenstein....and couldn't stop  ;D

Thread duty: Elgar 2 Slatkin will begin somewhat later than originally scheduled.

Sarge

DLvdE is certainly a work that is hard to stop listening to.... did you listen to the Slatkin eventually, Sarge? If so, what did you think?

Quote from: Leo K on December 11, 2011, 09:16:09 AM
Much thanks for your thoughts!

I am going to seek out another recording of the 2nd to get a different take, but I was deeply moved by my first listen to Elgar's 2nd, and can't wait to hear it a second time to get a better handle on it. There is so much beauty and the structure of this work is all so new all I can do is get taken by the current!

8)

It certainly is such a beautiful piece, one of my favourites. For other recordings of Elgar 2, I really do recommend Solti, Elder or Slatkin. In the Slatkin, the organ really does shine through in the finale!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 12, 2011, 10:54:23 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 12, 2011, 08:43:51 AM
That must have been amazing....

It was...and worth the effort to get there. I was away at university but skipped Friday classes to hitchhike home (a distance of about 115 miles). I'd never heard the symphony before, not even a recording, and didn't know what to expect. I just knew I loved the Mahler I had heard (recordings, radio) and didn't want to miss, what was then, a rare opportunity to hear Mahler live. The music blew me away...almost literally.  The end left me completely shattered. I remember thinking, Why are these people clapping? How can anyone applaud tragedy? I've heard it live several more times since and I still feel that way. We should applaud at the end of the first movement but observe silence after the finale.

Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 12, 2011, 08:43:51 AM
.... did you listen to the Slatkin eventually, Sarge? If so, what did you think?

I did listen to it. It is a great, middle-of-road (tempo-wise) performance. I was especially impressed by the Larghetto. Very moving in Slatkin's hands.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 12, 2011, 11:03:35 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 11, 2011, 04:14:55 AM
Overall, it's not the greatest set. In all of the performances, apart from some of the miniatures, there is the lack of the magic that Elgar's music so obviously displays through other performances, which is a shame.

There's a cottage that we sometimes rent, tucked away in the side of the Malvern Hills, with a spectacular view northwards across some of Elgar's favourite woodland. A few years ago I'd bought the Andrew Davis box at the Birthplace Museum, and spent the week in that cottage listening to it almost exclusively. I found no shortage of magic in those performances, either then, or later (I think his Enigma is tremendous): they supplemented the landscape, the location, and the mood, perfectly. The recording quality is a little warm and imprecise, but I don't find it troublesome in any way. As ever, it's each to his own, but the upshot is that since then, whenever I go away on holiday, it tends to be the Andrew Davis box that goes into the suitcase (when it isn't Boult or Barbirolli).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 12, 2011, 11:18:41 AM
Most interesting, Alan. (I hadn't noticed any shortage of magie, either.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 12, 2011, 01:14:24 PM
Of course I'm not trying to persuade anybody, Karl - just telling a story. I've also listened to most of the Slatkin Elgar box sitting on a warm evening in a camping car at the foot of the Malvern Hills, and thoroughly enjoyed the experience, though I never became particularly fond of the Slatkin afterwards. My musical listening is hopelessly influenced by associations of this sort, though. If I wanted to justify it, I might think to question a performance that doesn't seem in harmony with the spirit of the place that inspired it, but even I think that would be going too far. Of course these are all non-musical listening issues; but then Elgar's composing was often driven by non-musical issues, so we go round and round....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 12, 2011, 01:51:13 PM
I dig your stories, lad.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 13, 2011, 08:08:46 AM
This arrived this morning:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xVFhEPNVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Available from Amazon, released yesterday:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Conducts-Complete-recordings-1914-25/dp/B005SQ3AU8/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1323794487&sr=1-2 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Conducts-Complete-recordings-1914-25/dp/B005SQ3AU8/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1323794487&sr=1-2)

I listened to part of the second disc while eating my lunch: Cockaigne, In The South, and Marie Hall playing the violin concerto (cut to fit onto 4 sides). I expected crackle and pop; I expected to have to make a lot of allowances. I did not expect to have Marie Hall standing in the room, playing the VC, but that's what it seemed like.

The vividness of the recordings (bearing in mind that these are acoustic recordings, made around 1914/16) is gob-smacking. The guy responsible for the processing deserves a medal. I would never have believed this degree of restoration possible. The source was, unbelievably, Elgar's personal collection of 78s, and while he would have been playing them on HMV's state of the art players (they supplied him with gramophones, as one of their star recording artists), they must surely have taken a fair bit of wear, so it's hard to understand how they could yield something this good. It's very strange hearing Marie Hall's playing - so very different in style to Menuhin some years later, and what's more, in a stripped down version of the VC to squeeze it onto four 78 sides - but I found it deeply moving. There are personal reasons why I might shed a few tears right now, but this provides the best, not the worst of reasons for doing so.

The balance of the orchestra in all these works is obviously affected enormously by the need to group the players in front of the large acoustic horn, but in a peculiar way this gives them a greater sense of presence. It's easy to 'hear' the visual equivalent of the well-known photos taken of the making of recordings like these, and it all adds to the splendid atmosphere of this unique period of music-making and recording, with Elgar at the helm.

There's a nice booklet with photos; my only quibble is that there's no information about the digital processing - about the decisions that needed to be taken, when transferring and transforming the 78s to CD. Perhaps we don't need to know, but I'd have been interested.

Essential stuff for any Elgarian, this - preferably taken together with Jerrold Northrop Moore's comprehensive and fascinating (but sadly out of print) book: Elgar on Record:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61WIP2TOHnL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 13, 2011, 09:31:18 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 12, 2011, 10:54:23 AM
It was...and worth the effort to get there. I was away at university but skipped Friday classes to hitchhike home (a distance of about 115 miles). I'd never heard the symphony before, not even a recording, and didn't know what to expect. I just knew I loved the Mahler I had heard (recordings, radio) and didn't want to miss, what was then, a rare opportunity to hear Mahler live. The music blew me away...almost literally.  The end left me completely shattered. I remember thinking, Why are these people clapping? How can anyone applaud tragedy? I've heard it live several more times since and I still feel that way. We should applaud at the end of the first movement but observe silence after the finale.

I did listen to it. It is a great, middle-of-road (tempo-wise) performance. I was especially impressed by the Larghetto. Very moving in Slatkin's hands.

Sarge

Wow.... certainly must have been quite an experience! I am interested in your ideas concerning applause, I can completely understand what you mean. I suppose it may be how the conductor handles it.... when I saw Semyon Bychkov conduct it last Summer, at the end, he kept the audience silent for at least 30 seconds after the last blow, then while the audience clapped, just stood on the podium, his eyes closed. When he did eventually turn for his applause, he kept a very serious face.
The same with Mahler 9 really.... when I saw Mahler 9 live for the first time, I couldn't bring myself to do anything after the music had ended. I needed silence as I really was in an emotional state of despair at the extreme, painful beauty of the piece... applause, however wonderful it can be, did not help me then....
Glad you enjoyed the Slatkin. :)

Quote from: Elgarian on December 12, 2011, 11:03:35 AM
There's a cottage that we sometimes rent, tucked away in the side of the Malvern Hills, with a spectacular view northwards across some of Elgar's favourite woodland. A few years ago I'd bought the Andrew Davis box at the Birthplace Museum, and spent the week in that cottage listening to it almost exclusively. I found no shortage of magic in those performances, either then, or later (I think his Enigma is tremendous): they supplemented the landscape, the location, and the mood, perfectly. The recording quality is a little warm and imprecise, but I don't find it troublesome in any way. As ever, it's each to his own, but the upshot is that since then, whenever I go away on holiday, it tends to be the Andrew Davis box that goes into the suitcase (when it isn't Boult or Barbirolli).

That sounds wonderful. Well, concerning the Andrew Davis set, maybe it's just me. As you agree, the sound quality is not always the best, so the performance doesn't exactly benefit. Sometimes I think the orchestra could just give it that little bit more...
Elgar recordings I return to most are those of Solti, Elder, Barbirolli, Boult, and Bernstein's amazing Enigma Variations recording.

Quote from: Elgarian on December 13, 2011, 08:08:46 AM
This arrived this morning:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xVFhEPNVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Available from Amazon, released yesterday:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Conducts-Complete-recordings-1914-25/dp/B005SQ3AU8/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1323794487&sr=1-2 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Conducts-Complete-recordings-1914-25/dp/B005SQ3AU8/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1323794487&sr=1-2)


Sounds great, thank you for telling us about this. Straight to the wishlist!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 13, 2011, 12:51:58 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 13, 2011, 09:31:18 AMWell, concerning the Andrew Davis set, maybe it's just me.
Or equally, it's 'just me', or rather, I think it's just 'us'. We all have our own ideas about what's important in Elgar, and I grew up with certain expectations from his music that I'm sure have moulded the way I listen, even though I wouldn't be able to define what it is. (The proof is that I remember being quite shocked when I first heard one of Elgar's own recordings because I thought it didn't quite sound like Elgar should!)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 13, 2011, 12:53:46 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 13, 2011, 12:51:58 PM
(The proof is that I remember being quite shocked when I first heard one of Elgar's own recordings because I thought it didn't quite sound like Elgar!)

Man, I just had a sudden Dostoyevskian-"Grand-Inquisitor" flash!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 13, 2011, 12:59:44 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 13, 2011, 09:31:18 AMStraight to the wishlist!

Just a thought - you do have the box of Elgar's electrical recordings, do you? If you don't, then that would be absolutely the first thing to buy - no question about the superiority of the recording quality, there. This acoustic box is for all those who, already owning all the electrical recordings, were hoping there could be more. Well, now there is.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 13, 2011, 01:19:06 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 13, 2011, 12:51:58 PM
(The proof is that I remember being quite shocked when I first heard one of Elgar's own recordings because I thought it didn't quite sound like Elgar should!)

I had the same thoughts when I heard Elgar's own performance, I think it was with the RAH Orchestra, of symphony no.2! Have come to love these performances much more now though.

Quote from: Elgarian on December 13, 2011, 12:59:44 PM
Just a thought - you do have the box of Elgar's electrical recordings, do you? If you don't, then that would be absolutely the first thing to buy - no question about the superiority of the recording quality, there. This acoustic box is for all those who, already owning all the electrical recordings, were hoping there could be more. Well, now there is.

Yes, I do own that set, but I am still yet to listen to it. I brought it a while ago during a wonderful trip to the Elgar birthplace museum. I'll give the electrical recordings a listen first, then will hopefully pick up the acoustic box. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on December 14, 2011, 08:44:56 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 05:15:05 AM
Baker is...I have to be careful here, the definition police are lurking....incomparable.

The great thing is, this is not necessarily a compliment. ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 14, 2011, 08:50:35 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on December 14, 2011, 08:44:56 PM
The great thing is, this is not necessarily a compliment. ;)

Great to see you back, eyeresist. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on December 14, 2011, 08:56:03 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 14, 2011, 08:50:35 PM
Great to see you back, eyeresist. :)

*waves* Thank you! I had to duck out for a while, what with one thing and another, and am hoping this time to not get quite so personally committed ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 14, 2011, 09:10:20 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on December 14, 2011, 08:56:03 PM
*waves* Thank you! I had to duck out for a while, what with one thing and another, and am hoping this time to not get quite so personally committed ;)

You're welcome. :) Yeah, I know what you mean. There have been some changes, but mostly for the good. 8) Hope you decide to stick around a little longer this time around.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 15, 2011, 12:32:56 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xVFhEPNVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Just a brief update as I dip into this box. I listened to Starlight Express yesterday. Now this is not my favourite Elgar - indeed, I can take it or leave it, really - and as far as these acoustic recordings of it are concerned, I think I might prefer to leave it. This may be a mere personal foible, but I found it harder to accommodate the voice, acoustically recorded, than the near-miraculous orchestral recordings I'd been listening to previously. The soprano in particular seemed to be squealing like a tortured cat.

So the arbitrary ratings record of my personal journey  through the box, so far:
Cockaigne, In The South, Violin Concerto: *****
Starlight Express: *
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 15, 2011, 03:36:21 AM
What's your back-of-the-envelope comparison-&-contrast of the Op.61 in the two boxes, Alan?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 15, 2011, 03:38:48 AM
I've been a severely truant resident of the hillside . . . I've not made any more progress on the A. Davis box (it's one of those Warner reissues which runs afoul of Media Player, so I need either to listen on an actual CD player, or rip it to the mp3 player, which will happen at some point), nor on the Elgar's Own, Plugged In box.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 15, 2011, 04:10:00 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 15, 2011, 03:36:21 AM
What's your back-of-the-envelope comparison-&-contrast of the Op.61 in the two boxes, Alan?

That sounds like a straightforward question to answer, Karl, but it isn't. A number of immediate responses come to mind, but essentially the playing field isn't level. First, the acoustic recording has been drastically cut to fit four 78 sides. The cadenza isn't integrated with the final movement, but tagged on as a kind of bonus extra, as the fourth side, which dramatically changes the impact of it on the whole. The cuts and the restructuring mean that I doubt if any meaningful comparison could be made.

Except ... in the style of playing - which is radically different. Marie Hall (a one-time pupil of Elgar's I gather) is presumably playing in the style of her day (c1914) and it comes over as curiously sparse and understated. Menuhin's approach 17/18 years later is more obviously expressive and 'romantic'. I haven't compared them directly - I'm just working with my memory of the Menuhin.

I have heard Marie Hall's version before, but in a far inferior transcript of the recording, so I couldn't make much of it then. This is far more approachable - but I need to listen more times. I expect my impression will change.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 15, 2011, 04:13:09 AM
Very interesting, Alan — and I appreciate the textual difficulties of the comparison!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: cilgwyn on December 15, 2011, 07:53:19 AM
Quote from: Lethevich Dmitriyevna Pettersonova on December 11, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
What an intriguing painting - I was prompted to look it up, and it was by somebody I didn't know of until now. I like it when labels do that :)
Indeed! To be honest,I think the only reason I bought the Hyperion cd of William Wallace's Symphonic poems was because of the interesting painting on the front. Back then,the internet was Science Fiction to me & the only way to find out who did the painting was to buy the cd.The Hyperion release of the Gothic is a pleasant reminder that Hyperion haven't lost their flair for eye catching cover art! ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: cilgwyn on December 15, 2011, 08:07:30 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 15, 2011, 12:32:56 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xVFhEPNVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Just a brief update as I dip into this box. I listened to Starlight Express yesterday. Now this is not my favourite Elgar - indeed, I can take it or leave it, really - and as far as these acoustic recordings of it are concerned, I think I might prefer to leave it. This may be a mere personal foible, but I found it harder to accommodate the voice, acoustically recorded, than the near-miraculous orchestral recordings I'd been listening to previously. The soprano in particular seemed to be squealing like a tortured cat.

So the arbitrary ratings record of my personal journey  through the box, so far:
Cockaigne, In The South, Violin Concerto: *****
Starlight Express: *
Interesting! The acoustic recording of 'The Starlight Express' is one of my favourite recordings by Elgar. I love it.So full of atmosphere. I just can't agree with you at all! Mind you,I actually PREFER the acoustic recordings to some of the later electrical recordings. But then I admit I have a bit of a thing for acoustic recordings Nikisch,Fried,Coates,et al (even Colonne!) are all very welcome visitors to my turntable.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on December 15, 2011, 08:25:03 AM
I'm listening to Boult's recording of the 1st for the first time, and I'm amazed!

(http://musicholic.hkcsl.com/images/image_cache/song/emi/lacief/13/55/0077776401355/0077776401355.__CACHED__.360x360-crop:true-format:JPG.jpg)

The way he shapes the musical phrases helps me understand and hear the form of this glorious music  8)


Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 15, 2011, 11:32:24 AM
Quote from: Leo K on December 15, 2011, 08:25:03 AM
I'm listening to Boult's recording of the 1st for the first time, and I'm amazed!

The way he shapes the musical phrases helps me understand and hear the form of this glorious music  8)

I'm with you on this, which would certainly be among my favourite two or three interpretations of no. 1. (Not that I'm actually sure what the others would be...)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 15, 2011, 11:41:45 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 15, 2011, 08:07:30 AM
Interesting! The acoustic recording of 'The Starlight Express' is one of my favourite recordings by Elgar. I love it.So full of atmosphere. I just can't agree with you at all! Mind you,I actually PREFER the acoustic recordings to some of the later electrical recordings. But then I admit I have a bit of a thing for acoustic recordings Nikisch,Fried,Coates,et al (even Colonne!) are all very welcome visitors to my turntable.

The difficulty in this area is that there's even greater scope than usual for mere personal preference to swamp any other considerations. Since I don't have your penchant for acoustic recording per se (the things it does to the human voice are quite painful to me), and since Starlight is one of the bits of Elgar that doesn't interest me, I'm on a hiding to nothing in this case. I'm just making occasional personal notes on my journey through the contents of the box - I wouldn't want anyone to think I were claiming any objective insight into their merits.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: cilgwyn on December 15, 2011, 12:06:33 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 15, 2011, 11:41:45 AM
The difficulty in this area is that there's even greater scope than usual for mere personal preference to swamp any other considerations. Since I don't have your penchant for acoustic recording per se (the things it does to the human voice are quite painful to me), and since Starlight is one of the bits of Elgar that doesn't interest me, I'm on a hiding to nothing in this case. I'm just making occasional personal notes on my journey through the contents of the box - I wouldn't want anyone to think I were claiming any objective insight into their merits.
That's fine by me. I was just putting in a good word for them that's all! I also,like the recording of 'The Fringes of the Fleet!' Very evocative to my ears,but certainly not the most essential recordings in the set!!! Either way,that is quite an Xmas box! There I was wondering whether I would live long enough to see those recordings re released. What a treat! :) Meanwhile,I'm still 'waiting' for my copy.Unfortunately,I'm also waiting for new bank cards. :( If they don't turn up soon I think I'm going to have to dig out ye olde cheque book!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on December 24, 2011, 11:01:58 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Lo1YD%2BvwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'm LOVING this recording of the 1st symphony. I'm a fan of Sinopoli's Mahler 6th, so I thought why not try this?

;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on December 25, 2011, 12:12:55 AM

Hey! Where's your Amazon link?  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 25, 2011, 04:29:18 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on December 25, 2011, 12:12:55 AM
Hey! Where's your Amazon link?  8)

Sinopoli's Elgar recordings of the first and second symphonies can be enjoyed as a 2-CD set:

[asin]B000024ZB1[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 26, 2011, 06:48:25 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 25, 2011, 04:29:18 PM
Sinopoli's Elgar recordings of the first and second symphonies can be enjoyed as a 2-CD set:

Yes, Sinopoli's Second can be enjoyed, or suffered through, depending...  ;D

I'm in the former camp.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: starrynight on February 21, 2012, 11:23:53 AM
There was an episode on Elgar's first symphony in the short Discovering Music program on Radio 3.

Stephen Johnson described what he saw as the schizophrenic aspect of Elgar's personality, and how it was similar to Schumann who he admired.  He compared the noble opening theme with the turbulent allegro and said this showed Elgar combining opposite tendencies in the symphony, alongside his use of very distant keys in the same work.  Then he described how the thematic transformations in his view saw Elgar reconciling these opposing tendencies.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 21, 2012, 11:39:48 AM
Quote from: starrynight on February 21, 2012, 11:23:53 AM
There was an episode on Elgar's first symphony in the short Discovering Music program on Radio 3.

Stephen Johnson described what he saw as the schizophrenic aspect of Elgar's personality, and how it was similar to Schumann who he admired.  He compared the noble opening theme with the turbulent allegro and said this showed Elgar combining opposite tendencies in the symphony, alongside his use of very distant keys in the same work.  Then he described how the thematic transformations in his view saw Elgar reconciling these opposing tendencies.

There's much in this, though I think the 'schizophrenic' label is misleading. It's right to identify the bringing together of opposite tendencies, but that isn't schizophrenic - it's more like an analogy for the dialectical process in logical discussion. The musical resolution of the two opposites - which one might think of as a kind of synthesis (though I haven't thought this through in logical detail) - comes towards the close of the final movement, when the militaristic march-like theme is transformed into one of the most exquisite passages in all of Elgar (something I've tried to draw attention to many times here). Only then, only after having demonstrated that a synthesis is possible, can he bring the symphony to its optimistic, life-affirming close.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on February 21, 2012, 11:51:46 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on February 21, 2012, 11:39:48 AM
There's much in this, though I think the 'schizophrenic' label is misleading. It's right to identify the bringing together of opposite tendencies, but that isn't schizophrenic - it's more like an analogy for the dialectical process in logical discussion. The musical resolution of the two opposites - which one might think of as a kind of synthesis (though I haven't thought this through in logical detail) - comes towards the close of the final movement, when the militaristic march-like theme is transformed into one of the most exquisite passages in all of Elgar (something I've tried to draw attention to many times here).

And this refers back to the rhetorical origins of the sonata-allegro design.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: starrynight on February 21, 2012, 12:40:54 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on February 21, 2012, 11:39:48 AM
There's much in this, though I think the 'schizophrenic' label is misleading. It's right to identify the bringing together of opposite tendencies, but that isn't schizophrenic - it's more like an analogy for the dialectical process in logical discussion. The musical resolution of the two opposites - which one might think of as a kind of synthesis (though I haven't thought this through in logical detail) - comes towards the close of the final movement, when the militaristic march-like theme is transformed into one of the most exquisite passages in all of Elgar (something I've tried to draw attention to many times here). Only then, only after having demonstrated that a synthesis is possible, can he bring the symphony to its optimistic, life-affirming close.

Yes he described that moment as visionary, and it is brilliant of course.  I do find a bit of wistfulness, like the sadness of time gone, in that moment though, just like (though to a lesser extent) in the middle section of the second movement.  The mysterious sounding transitions in the piece I suppose link back to earlier composers like Beethoven in his 5th.  Moments like that are so deeply felt that they feel like they naturally lead to a change in the music. 

He also pointed out how the slow movement has a certain poignancy for the unattainable and isn't simply peaceful, which is true I'm sure.  Though he didn't explain why he also said the end wasn't always seen as completely triumphant.  With all those outbursts around the theme it might feel like the theme is struggling through them maybe?  Anyway he compared that to a great ship sailing through rough waters.  He also drew attention to the brilliant end of the slow movement which he described as poetic.  The last movement tends to remind me of the last part of Tchaikovsky 5 for some reason, probably the mix of great drama, lyricism and melody.

He brought attention to the fact that Elgar even at the height of his fame seemed depressive sometimes.  Certainly contrasts are a natural part of sonata form as it developed anyway and I suppose they were pushed to even greater extremes during the romantic period.  It does feel a very personal work though, even though the opening theme might initially suggest it will not be quite like that.

One interesting point was how he saw the transformation of the slow 2nd movement into the slow movement as representing the tributary slowing down before it joined into the main river.  He did like to view the music as images, which I suppose is an appropriately romantic view of the music.  However that might have been the point where he stretched things the most in his analysis, not quite sure about that idea.  :)  But otherwise he didn't over-interpret much I thought and kept to the music quite well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 21, 2012, 01:16:36 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 21, 2012, 11:51:46 AM
And this refers back to the rhetorical origins of the sonata-allegro design.

Said with penetrating clarity, Dr Henning!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 21, 2012, 01:26:04 PM
Quote from: starrynight on February 21, 2012, 12:40:54 PM
Yes he described that moment as visionary, and it is brilliant of course.  I do find a bit of wistfulness, like the sadness of time gone, in that moment though, just like (though to a lesser extent) in the middle section of the second movement.  The mysterious sounding transitions in the piece I suppose link back to earlier composers like Beethoven in his 5th.  Moments like that are so deeply felt that they feel like they naturally lead to a change in the music. 

He also pointed out how the slow movement has a certain poignancy for the unattainable and isn't simply peaceful, which is true I'm sure.  Though he didn't explain why he also said the end wasn't always seen as completely triumphant.  With all those outbursts around the theme it might feel like the theme is struggling through them maybe?  Anyway he compared that to a great ship sailing through rough waters.  He also drew attention to the brilliant end of the slow movement which he described as poetic.  The last movement tends to remind me of the last part of Tchaikovsky 5 for some reason, probably the mix of great drama, lyricism and melody.

He brought attention to the fact that Elgar even at the height of his fame seemed depressive sometimes.  Certainly contrasts are a natural part of sonata form as it developed anyway and I suppose they were pushed to even greater extremes during the romantic period.  It does feel a very personal work though, even though the opening theme might initially suggest it will not be quite like that.

One interesting point was how he saw the transformation of the slow 2nd movement into the slow movement as representing the tributary slowing down before it joined into the main river.  He did like to view the music as images, which I suppose is an appropriately romantic view of the music.  However that might have been the point where he stretched things the most in his analysis, not quite sure about that idea.  :)  But otherwise he didn't over-interpret much I thought and kept to the music quite well.

These are pretty well all good things to say, aren't they? Just to pick up a couple of points and run with them - we know that Elgar had bouts of depression - especially after just completing a major work. He often seemed to be dismayed by what he'd done. One the other hand, I'm not sure we should read too much of that (particularly the post-compositional depression) into his music. We get sadness - profound sadness - expressed (thinking of Spirit of England and the cello concerto as examples); but not depression I think. I can't think of any major work by Elgar, offhand, that expresses the kind of negativity associated with depression. (There's that very weird song 'Owls' which might make an exception.)

I think that river analogy is OK actually. We know Elgar made those kinds of connections himself, even when instructing orchestras he was conducting ('Play this like something you might hear down by the river'); so I reckon we ought to be free to talk in those terms if it seems to shed light on what's going on.

Sounds like a really interesting programme, actually. Thanks for telling us about it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: raduneo on April 05, 2012, 03:23:25 PM
Can someone help me to find a good recording of Elgar's Violin Concerto with GOOD SOUND QUALITY?

I have Campoli which I like, BUT the sound isn't that good (it's not particularly bad but it is not what I am aiming for). I hear good things about Sammons, but the sound quality leaves to be desired. Likewise for Heifetz and Menuhin.

I do appreciate Hugh Bean for his restraint and his emphasis of the integrity of Elgar's vision, but I am not so sure it is the ideal rendition.

Should I consider Hilary Hahn? Nigel Kennedy?

Thank you in advance!! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on April 05, 2012, 05:43:28 PM
Personally, I prefer Kennedy to la Hahn.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 05, 2012, 11:59:45 PM
Quote from: raduneo on April 05, 2012, 03:23:25 PM
Can someone help me to find a good recording of Elgar's Violin Concerto with GOOD SOUND QUALITY?

I have Campoli which I like, BUT the sound isn't that good (it's not particularly bad but it is not what I am aiming for). I hear good things about Sammons, but the sound quality leaves to be desired. Likewise for Heifetz and Menuhin.

I do appreciate Hugh Bean for his restraint and his emphasis of the integrity of Elgar's vision, but I am not so sure it is the ideal rendition.

Should I consider Hilary Hahn? Nigel Kennedy?

Thank you in advance!! :)

I know some folks do enjoy Hahn's recording, but I agree with Karl. I find she makes the concerto seem pretty, and misses the soul of it. Of the fifteen or so recordings I know, I find Hahn's  the least satisfactory.

If you feel there's more to the VC than is found in Bean's account of it, there are certainly some very fine (and very different) alternatives to try. A particular favourite of mine is this one, with Dong-Suk Kang and Adrian Leaper:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515eSuWQuIL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

This is about as far from Bean as you can get: it's the 'Elgar's Windflower Meets the Raggle-Taggle Gypsies' version. What Elgar (not to mention Alice Stuart Wortley) would have thought of this interpretation I can't say, but I find it fascinating.

For yet another, again very different, approach, you could do a lot worse than the recently released version by Tasmin Little:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WYDu%2BCP5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Listening to this makes one aware, for example, of how much Hilary Hahn misses the mark. Tasmin Little's is a deeply thoughtful and mature performance, full of nuance and - I think - a real understanding of Elgar's particular response to the feminine. I find that's essential. While there are passages in the VC that invite the display of virtuosity, mere fireworks obscure Elgar's intentions (well, such as I understand them, anyway), and Little seems to get the balance just right. The recording quality is warm and very satisfying too. If I had to give away most of my Elgar violin concerto recordings, Tasmin Little's would be among the last to go, along with Bean and Kang.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 06, 2012, 02:03:20 AM
I'm another disappointed by Hahn. It's okay when heard in isolation (and I like Davis' accompaniment) but her vibrato ultimately annoys me and interpretively she doesn't stand up to comparisons with the best--which for me are Chung/Solti (my favorite), Kennedy/Handley and Bean/Groves. Kang is very good too. Nothing wrong with Ehnes/A. Davis (and it has excellent sound) but it seems too close to Kennedy's interpretation to make it stand out. In other words, I'll take the original over the copy.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on April 06, 2012, 05:35:31 AM
Should say that the Kennedy recording I speak of is that with Rattle/CBSO. I've not heard his recording with Handley, and therefore cannot comment on the ways in which the two accounts differ.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on April 06, 2012, 05:36:17 AM
I need to revisit the Kang/Leaper . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: raduneo on April 06, 2012, 05:53:44 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 05, 2012, 11:59:45 PM
I know some folks do enjoy Hahn's recording, but I agree with Karl. I find she makes the concerto seem pretty, and misses the soul of it. Of the fifteen or so recordings I know, I find Hahn's  the least satisfactory.

If you feel there's more to the VC than is found in Bean's account of it, there are certainly some very fine (and very different) alternatives to try. A particular favourite of mine is this one, with Dong-Suk Kang and Adrian Leaper:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515eSuWQuIL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

This is about as far from Bean as you can get: it's the 'Elgar's Windflower Meets the Raggle-Taggle Gypsies' version. What Elgar (not to mention Alice Stuart Wortley) would have thought of this interpretation I can't say, but I find it fascinating.

For yet another, again very different, approach, you could do a lot worse than the recently released version by Tasmin Little:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WYDu%2BCP5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Listening to this makes one aware, for example, of how much Hilary Hahn misses the mark. Tasmin Little's is a deeply thoughtful and mature performance, full of nuance and - I think - a real understanding of Elgar's particular response to the feminine. I find that's essential. While there are passages in the VC that invite the display of virtuosity, mere fireworks obscure Elgar's intentions (well, such as I understand them, anyway), and Little seems to get the balance just right. The recording quality is warm and very satisfying too. If I had to give away most of my Elgar violin concerto recordings, Tasmin Little's would be among the last to go, along with Bean and Kang.

Thank you Elgarian for the very informative answer! :) Two variants I had not considered! I will report to you back when I have some answers!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: raduneo on April 06, 2012, 05:56:08 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 06, 2012, 02:03:20 AM
I'm another disappointed by Hahn. It's okay when heard in isolation (and I like Davis' accompaniment) but her vibrato ultimately annoys me and interpretively she doesn't stand up to comparisons with the best--which for me are Chung/Solti (my favorite), Kennedy/Handley and Bean/Groves. Kang is very good too. Nothing wrong with Ehnes/A. Davis (and it has excellent sound) but it seems too close to Kennedy's interpretation to make it stand out. In other words, I'll take the original over the copy.

Sarge

Thank you Sergeant Rock! Interpretation wise, what is particular about Chung/Solti and Kennedy/Handley?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 06, 2012, 08:07:20 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 06, 2012, 05:36:17 AM
I need to revisit the Kang/Leaper . . . .

Helpful directions: turn left after entering the forest, and follow the path to the gypsy encampment.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on April 06, 2012, 09:12:31 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 05, 2012, 11:59:45 PM
A particular favourite of mine is this one, with Dong-Suk Kang and Adrian Leaper:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515eSuWQuIL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

This was my first Elgar violin concerto disc (in fact one of the first Elgar discs I heard and a crucial one in a sense that it made me convinced I should explore Elgar more) and the first performance of the work I ever heard 15 years ago. Very good indeed and costs peanuts.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 07, 2012, 05:52:37 AM
Quote from: raduneo on April 06, 2012, 05:56:08 AM
Thank you Sergeant Rock! Interpretation wise, what is particular about Chung/Solti and Kennedy/Handley?

Here's what I wrote two years ago (before I had acquired Kang, Ehnes and Bean]:

I just finished a comparative listen to my three CD versions (Kennedy/Handley, Chung/Solti, and Hahn/Davis) and Kennedy is the best fiddler of the three in this work. Hahn's tone disturbs me: very thin with a constant and same vibrato that becomes irritating...at least it irritated this morning. Chung is "feminine" too but with considerably more grit and a wider range of tonal shades. I really like her, and like too what Solti does with the orchestra: he's very sensitive to his soloist, follows her lead into emotional depths we usually don't associate with this conductor but when on his own, he takes the opportunity to let the orchestra explode. Tuttis are thrilling...I doubt anyone does them better, with more passion. The performance then makes a clear distinction (if I may borrow from Elgarian) between the masculine and feminine elements in the music. I'd be hard-pressed to choose between Chung/Solti and Kennedy/Handley for the desert island.

You [Elgarian] characterize Bean as reserved, Luke says "low-profile" and the Gramophone review says the recording balance suits the "reticent nature" of the performance. So, reserved, low-profile, reticent...those are simply not the adjectives that come to mind when I think Late Romantic, which Elgar quintessentially is, as much as Strauss or Mahler. Elgar the man may have been reserved, as circumspect with his feelings as any good stiff-upper-lipped Englishman of his day...but he poured those bottled-up emotions into his music, fully expecting them to be heard clearly, I think. At least that's the way I want the music performed.

Masculine vs feminine probably isn't the best way to describe the interpretive difference between a Kennedy and a Bean (I don't know about you guys, but the women I've known have not been reticent about their feelings) but it's a characterization we can all understand. The concerto contains both elements and that's why, the more I listen, the more I think Solti/Chung managed to get it all in perfect balance. The overt passion of the Late Romantic is there--literally exploding at times, almost out of control, but then always tempered by Chung's interjections, as though she's stroking Solti, calming him, figuratively.


Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 07, 2012, 09:13:44 AM
Interesting comments there Sarge (I don't remember reading them before - maybe I missed 'em, or maybe it's the beginning of brain crunch.) Just picking up a few strands:

1. I think we each have a subtly different take on Elgar - or perhaps, it'd be more accurate to say that we come to him for subtly different things. In one sense I obviously must agree with you that Elgar could be described as quintessentially Late Romantic; and yet I'm always on the lookout for a layer underneath that which is deeply thoughtful and restrained, and which forms a major component of my attraction to some of his music. On a crude level I'd point to the contrast between the bluster of the finale, and the pinpoint precision of some of the solo violin work in the cadenza. (I don't say the cadenza as a whole is restrained - it certainly isn't - but there are passages where he seems to dissect the strands of femininity with almost forensic care.) I think it's this search of mine for this layering that drives me towards Bean, and perhaps Little, too - and away from, say, Kennedy. You might, of course, point to my pleasure in Kang and lift an eyebrow, and I'd accept that there's some inconsistency there!

2. Chung's playing is lovely, but I find Solti too wild - and I think again this is because of those subtle differences between the things we're looking for in the music.

3. The point about masculinity v femininity is so subtly nuanced that I hardly know how to express it. It's not as crude as the idea that a woman might be able to express aspects of it that a man might not - and yet I think there might be a bit of mileage in that. Elgar's attitude to the feminine (nowhere better expressed than in the VC) is seriously complicated, and I really love exploring it, and trying to tease out aspects of it from the music. Bean seems to make that easier for me than anyone else, and maybe that's why I gravitate so much towards him. (I concede of course that this particular game may not be everyone's idea of a good time!) I also think there's something in Tasmin Little's performance that I haven't got to the bottom of, but which tantalises me.

I think what all this shows is that with so many fine performances of the VC available, we'll all be able to find one or two that particularly suit us - and if we don't agree on a 'best', that's not surprising - it just makes it all more interesting.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: raduneo on April 07, 2012, 02:09:06 PM
Thank you both Sargeant Rock and Elgarian for sharing your wisdom! I really enjoyed reading your posts. :)

I realized I already had Kennedy/Rattle (Kennedy's 2nd recording of the concerto), and I am quite enjoying it! This is definitely one of Rattle's finer moments! There is definitely a lot of rubato, and you can tell Kennedy knows this work quite well. There is a lot of interplay between the orchestra and the soloist here - the orchestra slows down, and then the violinist goes really quickly (or the opposite).


They don't spend too much time on the passages that can get too loud and heavy (for me this is the biggest trap with Elgar's orchestral music - if not done right, TO MY EARS it can sound too loud/heavy and perhaps a bit turgid. This is not the case with this recording). In fact, this is the main part why I am having trouble with the symphonies - I have mainly been attracted to quicker interpretations so far (Menuhin and Solti). Are there any other good interpretations? (particularly symphony 1 seems harder to get into - a bit bombastic, especially in the first movement).

I will definitely try Kang, I will spend more time with Chung, and I will also check out Tasmin Little (you can find her on youtube). And hopefully I will find out which approach suits me. Ah, the hard work... :(

P.S.On a sidenote, with Elgar's works for voice and choir I find no potential danger or fault whatsoever. I find them quite heavenly.... some of the best ever written I feel! (and I am generally not a big fan of vocal works!). The songs, Dream of Gerontius, The Spirit of England, Sea Pictures have all made an impression! I will look into his later vocal works soon.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on April 07, 2012, 09:32:33 PM
Quote from: raduneo on April 07, 2012, 02:09:06 PMThey don't spend too much time on the passages that can get too loud and heavy (for me this is the biggest trap with Elgar's orchestral music - if not done right, TO MY EARS it can sound too loud/heavy and perhaps a bit turgid. This is not the case with this recording). In fact, this is the main part why I am having trouble with the symphonies - I have mainly been attracted to quicker interpretations so far (Menuhin and Solti). Are there any other good interpretations? (particularly symphony 1 seems harder to get into - a bit bombastic, especially in the first movement).
On principle I favour quicker takes on the symphonies, but in practice I find Solti too aggressive and Menuhin lacking nuance. Barbirolli remains my choice despite his slower tempos. I haven't listened to him in a while, but I think he is rarely given to bombast (which I admit is a hazard in these works).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on April 08, 2012, 12:37:09 AM
Hurst/Downes on Naxos or Boult on EMI get the job done.

Bombastic my ass.... ::) (Please read Elgarian's post below)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 08, 2012, 01:09:48 AM
Quote from: raduneo on April 07, 2012, 02:09:06 PM
They don't spend too much time on the passages that can get too loud and heavy (for me this is the biggest trap with Elgar's orchestral music - if not done right, TO MY EARS it can sound too loud/heavy and perhaps a bit turgid. This is not the case with this recording). In fact, this is the main part why I am having trouble with the symphonies - I have mainly been attracted to quicker interpretations so far (Menuhin and Solti). Are there any other good interpretations? (particularly symphony 1 seems harder to get into - a bit bombastic, especially in the first movement).

I think here you've hit very precisely on why some folks are put off Elgar's music (eg the symphonies). It's the mistaking of nobilmente for bombastissimo! Elgar's nobilmente is not about swagger and bombast, but about nobility, brotherhood, and chivalry. Nowhere is this demonstrated better than in the final movement of the 1st symphony, where he takes an aggressive, militaristic march, and transforms it into one of the most exquisite passages he ever wrote, full of ideas of redemption and hope.

It's very easy to misread his intentions, I think, or rather, mishear it (the listener's expectations can be as important as the conductor's interpretation). I'd say on the whole you can't go far wrong with Boult:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ocGdYErRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'm not saying this is 'the best' (whatever that means) - but these are lovely performances of the symphonies.

QuoteP.S.On a sidenote, with Elgar's works for voice and choir I find no potential danger or fault whatsoever. I find them quite heavenly.... some of the best ever written I feel! (and I am generally not a big fan of vocal works!). The songs, Dream of Gerontius, The Spirit of England, Sea Pictures have all made an impression!

Aha! You've given me an opportunity to bore everyone yet again with The Spirit of England - my favourite Elgar work. Indeed, my 'desert island' piece of music. May I recommend (if you don't have it already) the version conducted by Alexander Gibson, with Teresa Cahill as soloist? It defines the meaning of the word 'sublime', and her singing finds ways of expressing meaning in the words that no other version can approach.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 08, 2012, 03:17:03 AM
About the Elgar symphonies.....

Well, Solti's are the ones I return to most.
But there are quite a few other recordings I do really love. Elder's recordings with the Halle, for example, are excellent. Handley's recording of no.2 is absolutely beautiful. And as mentioned earlier, the Naxos recordings of Hurst (no.1) and Downes (no.2) are brilliant too. In fact, the Downes recording of no.2 remained a favourite for quite a while!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: raduneo on April 08, 2012, 06:29:30 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 08, 2012, 01:09:48 AM
I think here you've hit very precisely on why some folks are put off Elgar's music (eg the symphonies). It's the mistaking of nobilmente for bombastissimo! Elgar's nobilmente is not about swagger and bombast, but about nobility, brotherhood, and chivalry. Nowhere is this demonstrated better than in the final movement of the 1st symphony, where he takes an aggressive, militaristic march, and transforms it into one of the most exquisite passages he ever wrote, full of ideas of redemption and hope.

It's very easy to misread his intentions, I think, or rather, mishear it (the listener's expectations can be as important as the conductor's interpretation). I'd say on the whole you can't go far wrong with Boult:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ocGdYErRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'm not saying this is 'the best' (whatever that means) - but these are lovely performances of the symphonies.

Aha! You've given me an opportunity to bore everyone yet again with The Spirit of England - my favourite Elgar work. Indeed, my 'desert island' piece of music. May I recommend (if you don't have it already) the version conducted by Alexander Gibson, with Teresa Cahill as soloist? It defines the meaning of the word 'sublime', and her singing finds ways of expressing meaning in the words that no other version can approach.

Yes, that is the recording of The Spirit of England that I have! :) I have not heard any other, but I didn't feel it was unsatisfactory in any way! :)

I will make sure to give Boult a serious try!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: raduneo on April 08, 2012, 06:31:09 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 08, 2012, 03:17:03 AM
About the Elgar symphonies.....

Well, Solti's are the ones I return to most.
But there are quite a few other recordings I do really love. Elder's recordings with the Halle, for example, are excellent. Handley's recording of no.2 is absolutely beautiful. And as mentioned earlier, the Naxos recordings of Hurst (no.1) and Downes (no.2) are brilliant too. In fact, the Downes recording of no.2 remained a favourite for quite a while!

Those are quite a few I have not heard! I will make sure to put your advice to good use. ;)

I am curious, what is special about the Downes recording of #2 that everyone speaks so fondly about?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: raduneo on April 08, 2012, 06:32:26 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 08, 2012, 12:37:09 AM
Hurst/Downes on Naxos or Boult on EMI get the job done.

Bombastic my ass.... ::) (Please read Elgarian's post below)

71 dB, I did not mean that the Symphony itself is bombastic, rather that the interpreter I had heard makes it sound that way! :P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 08, 2012, 07:05:38 AM
Quote from: raduneo on April 08, 2012, 06:31:09 AM
Those are quite a few I have not heard! I will make sure to put your advice to good use. ;)

I am curious, what is special about the Downes recording of #2 that everyone speaks so fondly about?

Great - and make sure to let us know what you think! :)

The Downes... well, it's special to me as it was the first recording of Elgar 2 I owned myself. I listened to it so many times... It's just so excellent overall, the playing is outstanding, I love Downes' interpretation, which is very detailed and expressive, and I believe the performance really allows the magic and passion of the work to speak for itself. I haven't returned to the Downes for a while, I might try and listen to it again this week.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on April 09, 2012, 05:27:49 PM
Quote from: raduneo on April 08, 2012, 06:32:26 AM71 dB, I did not mean that the Symphony itself is bombastic, rather that the interpreter I had heard makes it sound that way! :P

Well, yeah. I think the point was slightly missed there :P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on April 10, 2012, 06:43:40 AM
Downes works in all aspects. The performance brings up Elgar's musical structures well, tempi are good, recorded sound is good,... ...and this Naxos disc can be bought in a very low price in Amazon marketplaces.  :)

Quote from: raduneo on April 08, 2012, 06:32:26 AM
71 dB, I did not mean that the Symphony itself is bombastic, rather that the interpreter I had heard makes it sound that way! :P

Fair enough.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on April 13, 2012, 12:29:39 PM
What prompts me here is having gone to a performance last night of 'Gerontius' in the city of its premier: Birmingham. But I will get to the performance eventually.

This is a piece around which people tend to polarise. Deeply Roman Catholic in its weft and its weave; it conveys the journey of a believer through his death bed experience and beyond, a distraction by evil forces is successfully negotiated, judgement attained and eventual acceptance into heaven.

The poem on which it is based is often the subject of outright detestation. Cardinal John Newman wrote a remarkable poem and Elgar set it very imaginatively. It certainly has awkward corners, but what sits there is a journey, almost akin to an Icelandic Saga. There is a strong narrative thrust and it becomes like an opera of the mind; unstageable, but both dramatic and lyrical. Even if you cannot take the piety and the supposition of what happens after death: why can't those who revile the text simply accept it as a work of imagination like most actual operas? The dialogue between the Angel and Gerontius in part two remind me of those involving Tamino in the Magic Flute.

It contains some of Elgar's most beautiful music and the settings of the words are always clear, clean and singable. The text for the soloists is used pretty much without repeats of phrases, you plough on through that journey and that must have provided some headaches; as repeated phrases are often there to enable the composer to, at least partly, shape the text to the music. It is through-written, influenced by Wagner. So one way or another to my ears, despite its adoption, it sits aside from the English oratorio tradition; unique in may ways.

Part One has generally darker colours in it with more lower brass. Part two in punctuated with outbursts of darkness, but often, as with its opening, it emphasises a lighter colour by omitting double bases and lower brass.

So to the concert. There was not one substitute but two, The conductor Andris Nelsons cancelled due to the illness of his new born daughter. The tenor Toby Spence was ill.

Birmingham Symphony Chorus & Orchestra, Edward Gardner (conductor)
Robert Murray (tenor): Sarah Connolly (mezzo-soprano):James Rutherford (baritone )

There were a lot of excellent things about the performance, chiefly the orchestra which was terrific, the soft and well tuned choral sections and a deal of the conducting; but over all, I felt it a considerable disappointment. It certainly started well and Gardiner shaped the part one prelude beautifully. I did not like the tenor who strained and bleated anywhere above an F and found nothing fresh in the words. Why do so few singers colour and savor words these days? He did express some emotion, but that was about loud and soft. His hushed singing was very good and he plus Gardiner did produce some marvelous suspended moments.

Gardiner pushed some parts of the work, especially the big chorus 'Praise to the Holiest' It lost a deal of its grandeur. The CBSO chorus entirely lacked guts and sang with utmost politeness. There were few proper hard consonants to start key words. So, 'Praise' became 'ase'. 'despot's' became 'espot's' etc. This enervated the choral entries which were not late but were hardly characterised. The Daemons' chorus was vitiated and mild as though the danger of pantomime had to be avoided at all costs. Elgar notated three distinct ways of singong, 'Ha ha!' You would not have known from this effort.

I like Sarah Connelly a lot, she sounded good, but again, it came across as very much a highly skilled stock response to the words and music. Only in the final benediction did something happen to make it come alive. I will not hark back to Janet Baker: Alice Coote in the recent Halle recording found new ways to convey the text, required listening.

The audience held the silence for a very long time at the end, an end that had closed on a very strong piano volume and had not died away to mezzo piano, as is traditional. Perhaps it will all go well on the repeat performance this weekend in London. Last night was broadcast live on BBC radio. Available here for a week or so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b01fm9b5 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b01fm9b5)

Mike

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on April 13, 2012, 12:52:23 PM
Most interesting, thanks, Mike.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 13, 2012, 01:06:12 PM
Thanks Mike. Among all those other interesting things, your post reminds me that I should listen to Alice Coote/Elder/Hallé again.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on April 13, 2012, 01:11:35 PM
Since posting, I have been listening to the Elder/Coote and sampling Barbirolli and Baker. Even that new Halle version does not enable the 'pr' in 'Praise' to come across. I have just ordered the old Gibson version with the SNO. I have not heard it despite being in the recording. I will see just what the Scots choir does with the words....were we as clear as I remember?

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 14, 2012, 07:12:27 AM
Thanks for posting the review, Mike! As you know, I am seeing the same combination perform Gerontius at the Barbican tonight, very excited about it! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on April 14, 2012, 08:41:22 AM
I did not draw your attention to it as my opinion was less than positive. I found a recording on YouTube with Sarah Connelly as the Angel. It is only an extract, but it suggests a more detailed and lustrous reading of the part. I wonder if perhaps she was not well. Three cancellations in one concert would look like more than an accident.

I hope you enjoy it.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 14, 2012, 01:54:55 PM
Quote from: knight66 on April 14, 2012, 08:41:22 AM
I did not draw your attention to it as my opinion was less than positive. I found a recording on YouTube with Sarah Connelly as the Angel. It is only an extract, but it suggests a more detailed and lustrous reading of the part. I wonder if perhaps she was not well. Three cancellations in one concert would look like more than an accident.

I hope you enjoy it.

Mike

Yes, on reading the review again, you did seem to take a rather negative view about the concert...  ;)
Just back from the concert now, and I did personally think it was beautiful. I was actually very impressed with Connelly, if she was not feeling her best for your concert, she was certainly cured for the one tonight. As ever, I was very impressed with Gardner. I don't think the Barbican acoustics are always perfect... and I did sometimes have to strain just a little to hear Murray, but never the others. The orchestra were certainly on top form and were very expressive.
I suppose I would give it 4 stars. (out of 5)

It was the first time I had seen the oratorio live, and I have to say that it was a very moving experience!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on April 14, 2012, 03:25:48 PM
Daniel, I hope you like Elgar! : )
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on April 14, 2012, 11:11:13 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 14, 2012, 01:54:55 PM
Yes, on reading the review again, you did seem to take a rather negative view about the concert...  ;)
Just back from the concert now, and I did personally think it was beautiful. I was actually very impressed with Connelly, if she was not feeling her best for your concert, she was certainly cured for the one tonight. As ever, I was very impressed with Gardner. I don't think the Barbican acoustics are always perfect... and I did sometimes have to strain just a little to hear Murray, but never the others. The orchestra were certainly on top form and were very expressive.
I suppose I would give it 4 stars. (out of 5)

It was the first time I had seen the oratorio live, and I have to say that it was a very moving experience!

The main thing is that your first live experience of this wonderful piece was positive. I am glad you enjoyed it.

Mike

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 15, 2012, 03:17:13 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 14, 2012, 03:25:48 PM
Daniel, I hope you like Elgar! : )
;D

Of course I do, Karl! :)

Quote from: knight66 on April 14, 2012, 11:11:13 PM
The main thing is that your first live experience of this wonderful piece was positive. I am glad you enjoyed it.

Mike

Thank you, Mike! :) I will certainly want to see it live again.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on April 16, 2012, 02:03:26 AM
Gerontius was splendid when done here in Boston. And who knows when they may put it on again?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on April 22, 2012, 11:54:54 AM
Posted this in the 'Recs You Are Considering,' then saw a post by Daniel suggesting I wander over here instead:

Currently my only Elgar symphonies recordings are Tate/LSO and Elgar himself. I love Tate/LSO because it finally explained to me why I should cherish these symphonies, and it's quite hard for me to imagine the works going any other way but the aching elegiac warmth of those readings. But I also know that it's an Eccentric reading - or a Sarge-ic reading, very slow but sturdily built. Solti's Decca duo is on sale at Presto for $8 right now; would that make for an enjoyable contrast?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 22, 2012, 12:01:55 PM
Quote from: Brian on April 22, 2012, 11:54:54 AM
Posted this in the 'Recs You Are Considering,' then saw a post by Daniel suggesting I wander over here instead:

Currently my only Elgar symphonies recordings are Tate/LSO and Elgar himself. I love Tate/LSO because it finally explained to me why I should cherish these symphonies, and it's quite hard for me to imagine the works going any other way but the aching elegiac warmth of those readings. But I also know that it's an Eccentric reading - or a Sarge-ic reading, very slow but sturdily built. Solti's Decca duo is on sale at Presto for $8 right now; would that make for an enjoyable contrast?

Welcome to Elgar land, Brian! ;)
There was a rather big discussion about the symphonies just a page back or so if you wish to have a look at that. Yes, Solti would certainly make a contast! As you will see, they are not everyones favourite... but to me, they are some of the most exciting performances of the works available. One of my favourites! My others would be Elder's with the Halle, or Boult's EMI set (the Lyrita is excellent too), and also Downes' Naxos recording of no.2 which is to me absolutely perfect.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 22, 2012, 12:49:04 PM
Thought I'd throw a spanner into the first symphony works. I have wondered at various times during the last few years whether my favourite performance of the 1st symphony might be that given by Boult at the 1976 Proms on 28 July (his last performance of it at the Proms), but there seemed little point in mentioning it, because it was issued on CD in 2006, free with BBC Music Magazine, and would be almost unobtainable now I should imagine. Being a live recording, there's the occasional cough, etc - but the recording quality is very atmospheric and spacious and - more importantly - the performance itself is superb. One feels that Boult has a complete grasp of the structure of the piece (as well he might, after a lifetime of conducting it), and that here he is presenting it as an almost unanswerably complete Elgarian statement of intent. It sparkles with life from beginning to end, and the final movement is immensely moving.

Now, the other day the latest Elgar Society Journal dropped onto the doormat, and I turned to the CD review pages - and here is the very same recording, now commercially released on ICA:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C%2Bmocz81L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Amazon uk link:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-Elgar-Adrian-Symphony-Classics/dp/B006VOX7Q8/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335126619&sr=1-1-fkmr0 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-Elgar-Adrian-Symphony-Classics/dp/B006VOX7Q8/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335126619&sr=1-1-fkmr0)

The reviewer in the Elgar Society mag (Richard Wiley) writes that here 'Boult brought off one of his truly great Elgar performances'. It 'has tremendous vitality and sense of purpose'. 'If you have never heard this performance, then without doubt you should take this opportunity'. He also quotes Martin Cotton, who wrote the CD booklet notes and who was present at the actual performance: 'it was one of the greatest musical experiences of my life, relived every time I hear it again'.

So it seems I hadn't been imagining the remarkable character of this performance. At least, here was one reviewer who wouldn't think so. And so I can now include this here in the symphonic melting pot as another possible top contender for a supreme Elgar 1 on record. If you want more opinions, take a look at the reviews on Amazon uk at the above link. They all say pretty much the same ....



Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on April 22, 2012, 06:48:13 PM
^ Excellent! Added to the List.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Wanderer on April 23, 2012, 01:29:01 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 05, 2012, 05:43:28 PM
Personally, I prefer Kennedy to la Hahn.

Ditto. The one with the bulldog cover.  8)

Quote from: Brian on April 22, 2012, 11:54:54 AM
Solti's Decca duo is on sale at Presto for $8 right now; would that make for an enjoyable contrast?

I'd much rather suggest Sinopoli. His First is positively electrifying.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 23, 2012, 01:50:18 AM
Quote from: Brian on April 22, 2012, 11:54:54 AM
Currently my only Elgar symphonies recordings are Tate/LSO and Elgar himself. I love Tate/LSO because it finally explained to me why I should cherish these symphonies, and it's quite hard for me to imagine the works going any other way but the aching elegiac warmth of those readings. But I also know that it's an Eccentric reading - or a Sarge-ic reading, very slow but sturdily built. Solti's Decca duo is on sale at Presto for $8 right now; would that make for an enjoyable contrast?

Quote from: Wanderer on April 23, 2012, 01:29:01 AM
I'd much rather suggest Sinopoli. His First is positively electrifying.

While I love Sinopoli's Elgar (especially the Second), if you're looking for maximum contrast, Solti does make more sense. There's more to a performance than tempo, of course, but Tate and Sinopoli have near identical timings in many movements and, to me, that puts them in roughly the same camp. Boult EMI would make another good choice.

Elgar Symphony No.1

Barbirolli       21:39   7:03     12:15   12:46
C.Davis         21:00   7:52     12:47   12:45
Sinopoli        20:41   7:10     14:10    13:17
Tate             20:39   7:10     14:16    12:22
Slatkin          20:28   6:31    13:40    12:31
Elder            20:05   7:14     12:33    12:15
Previn          19:26   6:52     12:58    12:27
Boult (EMI)   18:33   7:14     10:53    12:01
Solti             17:45   7:08     12:12    11:38


Elgar Symphony No.2

Sinopoli         20:43   18:25   9:00   17:14
Haitink           20:33   15:56   8:25   13:57
Barbirolli        19:24   13:50   8:19   14:18
Tate              19:17   17:21   8:28   17:23
C.Davis         18:23   16:19   8:26   14:30
Boult (EMI)   17:29   14:13    8:00   13:15
Downes        17:16   15:01   8:13   15:33
Slatkin          17:15   15:11  7:40    14:43
Solti             15:30   15:30   7:49   12:33
Elgar            14:33   12:59   7:55   12:20
Svetlanov     14:01   15:54   7:11   14:00


Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: raduneo on April 23, 2012, 05:24:51 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on April 23, 2012, 01:29:01 AM
Ditto. The one with the bulldog cover.  8)

I'd much rather suggest Sinopoli. His First is positively electrifying.

Indeed, the Kennedy is my favorite one so far. I have the Kennedy/Rattle (his second recording). There may be some liberty with the tempi, but it feels really good! From what I understand, Kennedy really knew this concerto well!

I've also been giving Zneider/Colin Davis a listen lately; it's closer to Hugh Bean's reading; he's also surprisingly good in the tender moments! I will need to listen to it more to be able to give a verdict though.

Right now I'm also waiting for the Shaham to arrive, and I am quite excited about that! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: raduneo on April 23, 2012, 05:31:04 AM
Quote from: Brian on April 22, 2012, 11:54:54 AM
Posted this in the 'Recs You Are Considering,' then saw a post by Daniel suggesting I wander over here instead:

Currently my only Elgar symphonies recordings are Tate/LSO and Elgar himself. I love Tate/LSO because it finally explained to me why I should cherish these symphonies, and it's quite hard for me to imagine the works going any other way but the aching elegiac warmth of those readings. But I also know that it's an Eccentric reading - or a Sarge-ic reading, very slow but sturdily built. Solti's Decca duo is on sale at Presto for $8 right now; would that make for an enjoyable contrast?

I will have to revisit Tate then! Those were the first recordings of the symphonies I got! :)

So far, I have a clear favorite for #1 in Hurst: tender when it needs to be, very noble, yet never bombastic, with plenty of vitality in the right places, a great sense of lyricism, and a very good attention to detail. LOVE it! I do not however have a clear favorite for #2 from what I've listened to.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 23, 2012, 08:47:21 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 23, 2012, 01:50:18 AM
While I love Sinopoli's Elgar (especially the Second), if you're looking for maximum contrast, Solti does make more sense. There's more to a performance than tempo, of course, but Tate and Sinopoli have near identical timings in many movements and, to me, that puts them in roughly the same camp. Boult EMI would make another good choice.

Elgar Symphony No.1

C.Davis         21:00   7:52     12:47   12:45
Sinopoli        20:41   7:10     14:10    13:17
Tate             20:39   7:10     14:16    12:22
Slatkin          20:28   6:31    13:40    12:31
Elder            20:05   7:14     12:33    12:15
Previn          19:26   6:52     12:58    12:27
Boult (EMI)   18:33   7:14     10:53    12:01
Solti             17:45   7:08     12:12    11:38


Elgar Symphony No.2

Sinopoli         20:43   18:25   9:00   17:14
Haitink          20:33   15:56   8:25   13:57
Tate              19:17   17:21   8:28   17:23
C.Davis         18:23   16:19   8:26   14:30
Boult (EMI)   17:29   14:13    8:00   13:15
Downes        17:16   15:01   8:13   15:33
Slatkin          17:15   15:11  7:40    14:43
Solti             15:30   15:30   7:49   12:33
Elgar            14:33   12:59   7:55   12:20
Svetlanov     14:01   15:54   7:11   14:00

Interesting comparison here (thanks for this helpful list, Sarge). Take a look at the timings for Boult's 1976 live Proms recording of the 1st symphony - the one that's been arousing so much enthusiasm for me and others (see #1415 above):

17:22  7:05  9:04  11:19

Remarkably, I don't feel even the slightest sense of undue haste; it's such a masterly performance that it seems perfectly natural.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on April 23, 2012, 09:22:40 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 23, 2012, 01:50:18 AM
Elgar Symphony No.1

C.Davis         21:00   7:52     12:47   12:45

Wow, strange to see the timings put so plainly here. I had the feeling this performance would drag on until the end of time :(
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on April 23, 2012, 09:25:18 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 23, 2012, 08:47:21 AM
Interesting comparison here (thanks for this helpful list, Sarge). Take a look at the timings for Boult's 1976 live Proms recording of the 1st symphony - the one that's been arousing so much enthusiasm for me and others (see #1415 above):

17:22  7:05  9:04  11:19

Remarkably, I don't feel even the slightest sense of undue haste; it's such a masterly performance that it seems perfectly natural.

A fresh lesson that it's not merely the time taken to walk through the music, but the manner.

Copy that thanks to the Sarge!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 23, 2012, 11:18:53 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 23, 2012, 08:47:21 AM
Interesting comparison here (thanks for this helpful list, Sarge). Take a look at the timings for Boult's 1976 live Proms recording of the 1st symphony - the one that's been arousing so much enthusiasm for me and others (see #1415 above):

17:22  7:05  9:04  11:19

Remarkably, I don't feel even the slightest sense of undue haste; it's such a masterly performance that it seems perfectly natural.

That's fascinating. Even faster than Solti! I failed to respond to your original post but did read it with interest...well, more than interest: I ordered the disc. It was shipped today so I might have it tomorrow morning. Looking forward to it. Boult seldom disappoints.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 23, 2012, 11:31:46 AM
Quote from: Lethevich on April 23, 2012, 09:22:40 AM
Wow, strange to see the timings put so plainly here. I had the feeling this performance would drag on until the end of time :(

Which was my response to Davis too. And yet, Sinopoli and Tate, even slower in some movements, don't have that effect (on me, anyway). Which proves Karl's point:

Quote from: karlhenning on April 23, 2012, 09:25:18 AM
A fresh lesson that it's not merely the time taken to walk through the music, but the manner.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 23, 2012, 12:38:39 PM
Edward Elgar is one of the English composers I admire most, along with Gustav Holst and Ralph Vaughan-Williams. :)
His music is very beautiful, harmonic and elegant, but the same time, incredibly expressive and poetical, full of strenght and intesity, with a very majestic style and a splendid orchestration, really brilliant.
My favourite Elgar's works are the symphonies, the Enigma Variations, the Violin Concerto, Salut d'Amour, the Cello Concerto, Cockaigne and Froissart. I also appreciate the Pomp & Circumstance Marches a lot, especially No.2, No.4 and No.5; they are doubtless extremely involving and enjoyable, although I think Elgar is a bit too associated with this series of compositions.....they're are Elgar's most famous work , but not the most beautiful as well.

By the way, I would be interested in buying another recording of the symphonies, so far I've got just Solti's version; any suggestion? :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 23, 2012, 12:50:22 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 23, 2012, 12:38:39 PM
By the way, I would interested in buying another recording of the symphonies, so far I've got just Solti's version; any suggestion? :)

My favorites (not necessarily recommendations--precede with caution: I accept responsibility only for my own taste  ;D ) :

1 - Previn and Boult EMI (we'll soon see if the BBC Boult will displace that)

2 - Sinopoli and Tate, both about as different from Solti as can be imagined.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 23, 2012, 01:07:10 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 23, 2012, 12:38:39 PM
Edward Elgar is one of the English composers I admire most, along with Gustav Holst and Ralph Vaughan-Williams. :)
His music is very beautiful, harmonic and elegant, but the same time, incredibly expressive and poetical, full of strenght and intesity, with a very majestic style and a splendid orchestration, really brilliant.
My favourite Elgar's works are the symphonies, the Enigma Variations, the Violin Concerto, Salut d'Amour, the Cello Concerto, Cockaigne and Froissart. I also appreciate the Pomp & Circumstance Marches a lot, especially No.2, No.4 and No.5; they are doubtless extremely involving and enjoyable, although I think Elgar is a bit too associated with this series of compositions.....they're are Elgar's most famous work , but not the most beautiful as well.

By the way, I would interested in buying another recording of the symphonies, so far I've got just Solti's version; any suggestion? :)

Beautiful description! All of those works you mention are very special to me. Overall, I could easily say Elgar is one of the most special composers to me. A composer who I have grown up with, who I have enjoyed from the very beginning of my musical life! :)

As I have been saying, perhaps try Boult's EMI set, or Elder's set with the Halle. Also, I would really really recommend you get Downes' performance with the BBC Philharmonic on Naxos. The Solti is excellent, so you made a good first choice! :) I really wished that Bernstein had recorded the symphonies. He did such an amazing job with the Enigma Variations, his recording is my favourite performance of the piece.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 23, 2012, 01:42:48 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 23, 2012, 12:50:22 PM
My favorites (not necessarily recommendations--precede with caution: I accept responsibility only for my own taste  ;D ) :

1 - Previn and Boult EMI (we'll soon see if the BBC Boult will displace that)

2 - Sinopoli and Tate, both about as different from Solti as can be imagined.

Sarge
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 23, 2012, 01:07:10 PM
Beautiful description! All of those works you mention are very special to me. Overall, I could easily say Elgar is one of the most special composers to me. A composer who I have grown up with, who I have enjoyed from the very beginning of my musical life! :)

As I have been saying, perhaps try Boult's EMI set, or Elder's set with the Halle. Also, I would really really recommend you get Downes' performance with the BBC Philharmonic on Naxos. The Solti is excellent, so you made a good first choice! :) I really wished that Bernstein had recorded the symphonies. He did such an amazing job with the Enigma Variations, his recording is my favourite performance of the piece.

Haha, no problem, Sarge, and thanks for the feedback ;D I read very good reviews about Boult's recording, which was also recommended me by Daniel before; I think I may choose this one, then. Anyway, Previn on EMI looks very interesting too.

Thank you, Daniel :) Very well, besides Boult's set, and eventually Previn's one, I may also consider Downes' performance. Yes, absolutely, Bernstein's Enigma Variations is simply outstanding, impressive; I wished that he had recorded the symphonies too, I'm sure they would have been excellent. But at least he made some performances of Elgar's pieces, Karajan never did it. :(
Certainly, I know Elgar's music is very important for you, that's wonderful it is able to strike and inspire you in a so deep way; I could easily share the feeling about me and Johann Strauss as I've grown up listening to the Neujahrskonzerte. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 23, 2012, 01:45:59 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 23, 2012, 01:42:48 PM
Thank you, Daniel :) Very well, besides Boult's set, and eventually Previn's one, I may also consider Downes' performance. Yes, absolutely, Bernstein's Enigma Variations is simply outstanding, impressive; I wished that he had recorded the symphonies too, I'm sure they would have been excellent. But at least he made some performances of Elgar's pieces, Karajan never did it. :(
Certainly, I know Elgar's music is very important for you, that's wonderful it is able to strike and inspire you in a so deep way; I could easily share the feeling about me and Johann Strauss as I've grown up listening to the Neujahrskonzerte. :)

My pleasure, I always love sharing my passion for these two works. Two of my favourite pieces of all time. :) Glad to hear that are going to get the Boult set, please let us know when you do! The Downes should be available really inexpensively from the Amazon MP if you are tempted by the incredible praise that myself and various others have given it on this thread!
Yes, I do sometimes wonder what Karajan's Elgar would have been like... would certainly have been fascinating to hear!

:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 23, 2012, 02:06:09 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 23, 2012, 01:45:59 PM
My pleasure, I always love sharing my passion for these two works. Two of my favourite pieces of all time. :) Glad to hear that are going to get the Boult set, please let us know when you do! The Downes should be available really inexpensively from the Amazon MP if you are tempted by the incredible praise that myself and various others have given it on this thread!
Yes, I do sometimes wonder what Karajan's Elgar would have been like... would certainly have been fascinating to hear!

:)

I will :) I've always wanted to increase my Elgar's collection, but unfortunately here in Italy it's a little hard to find recordings which are not the Enigma Variations or Pomp & Circumstance, and unless you're a great lover of classical music, those ones are the only works you could hear talking about. :( I remember a friend of mine called Elgar "the Englishman mad for marches", because of Pomp and Circumstance, I suppose; he left me speechless.
I think I will take a look at Downes' version on Amazon to have a clearer idea of what it is like, I'm rather curious. :)
Haha, well, it would have certainly been a masterpiece, as all Karajan's performances!!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on April 23, 2012, 05:59:00 PM

I have to ask, since I'm the only one who's mentioned him, am I somehow the only one here who owns the Barbirolli EMI recordings?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on April 23, 2012, 06:05:02 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on April 23, 2012, 05:59:00 PM
I have to ask, since I'm the only one who's mentioned him, am I somehow the only one here who owns the Barbirolli EMI recordings?

I have them as part of that 30 CD Elgar EMI box (the one where they gathered all their most popular/famous recordings), but to tell the truth I've only listened to them once.  My other recording of the symphonies is Tate.  To tell the truth,  when I want Elgar, I generally go for Gerontius,  the Enigma Variations and the Cello and Violin Concertos before I pop onto the symphonies.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 23, 2012, 11:28:34 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 23, 2012, 12:38:39 PM
Edward Elgar is one of the English composers I admire most, along with Gustav Holst and Ralph Vaughan-Williams. :)
His music is very beautiful, harmonic and elegant, but the same time, incredibly expressive and poetical, full of strenght and intesity, with a very majestic style and a splendid orchestration, really brilliant.
My favourite Elgar's works are the symphonies, the Enigma Variations, the Violin Concerto, Salut d'Amour, the Cello Concerto, Cockaigne and Froissart. I also appreciate the Pomp & Circumstance Marches a lot, especially No.2, No.4 and No.5; they are doubtless extremely involving and enjoyable, although I think Elgar is a bit too associated with this series of compositions.....they're are Elgar's most famous work , but not the most beautiful as well.

Ilaria, do you have, or have you heard (at this point, groans are heard all around, because this is a drum I frequently bang) his The Spirit of England? In a lifetime of listening to Elgar, this is the piece above all that, for me, expresses his particular sense of longing for an ideal of nobility, chivalry, brotherhood, in the face of tragedy and loss. Out of all my shelvesful of Elgar recordings, this is the one I'd take to my desert island: his most neglected masterpiece. The singing in this particular version is stupendous.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wQo9w-jHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Coronation-Ode-Spirit-England/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335252242&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Coronation-Ode-Spirit-England/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335252242&sr=1-1)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 23, 2012, 11:33:23 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on April 23, 2012, 05:59:00 PM
I have to ask, since I'm the only one who's mentioned him, am I somehow the only one here who owns the Barbirolli EMI recordings?

Certainly not. That EMI 5-CD box of Barbirolli's Elgar is an essential, I'd say.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Hey5IMhfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2012, 12:41:17 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on April 23, 2012, 05:59:00 PM
I have to ask, since I'm the only one who's mentioned him, am I somehow the only one here who owns the Barbirolli EMI recordings?

I have the 5-CD box too (with a different cover) but I acquired it after I'd compiled the timings. I'll add them to the list now.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2010/elgarboxbarbirolli.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on April 24, 2012, 02:39:23 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2012, 12:41:17 AMI have the 5-CD box too (with a different cover) but I acquired it after I'd compiled the timings. I'll add them to the list now.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2010/elgarboxbarbirolli.jpg)

I have that one. I don't think the cover colour looks so much like baby shit in real life  ::)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2012, 04:48:59 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 23, 2012, 11:28:34 PM
Ilaria, do you have, or have you heard (at this point, groans are heard all around, because this is a drum I frequently bang) his The Spirit of England? In a lifetime of listening to Elgar, this is the piece above all that, for me, expresses his particular sense of longing for an ideal of nobility, chivalry, brotherhood, in the face of tragedy and loss. Out of all my shelvesful of Elgar recordings, this is the one I'd take to my desert island: his most neglected masterpiece. The singing in this particular version is stupendous.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wQo9w-jHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Coronation-Ode-Spirit-England/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335252242&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Coronation-Ode-Spirit-England/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335252242&sr=1-1)

'Tis a fine drum, and you employ a soft beater.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 24, 2012, 04:53:12 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 24, 2012, 04:48:59 AM
'Tis a fine drum, and you employ a soft beater.

Either that, Karl, or you forgot to remove your ear-protection.

BANG! The BANG! Spirit BANG! of BANG! England BANG!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2012, 04:53:54 AM
Bang on, Alan!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2012, 05:10:55 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on April 24, 2012, 02:39:23 AM
I have that one. I don't think the cover colour looks so much like baby shit in real life  ::)

True.

Is this better?  ;D  I compared the real box to what I see on my screen; it's a close match.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2010/edelgarboxbarbirolli.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2012, 05:16:00 AM
The Pea Soup Box
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lethevich on April 24, 2012, 05:28:27 AM
Nothing wrong with a helping of mustard.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 24, 2012, 06:16:43 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 23, 2012, 11:28:34 PM
Ilaria, do you have, or have you heard (at this point, groans are heard all around, because this is a drum I frequently bang) his The Spirit of England? In a lifetime of listening to Elgar, this is the piece above all that, for me, expresses his particular sense of longing for an ideal of nobility, chivalry, brotherhood, in the face of tragedy and loss. Out of all my shelvesful of Elgar recordings, this is the one I'd take to my desert island: his most neglected masterpiece. The singing in this particular version is stupendous.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wQo9w-jHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Coronation-Ode-Spirit-England/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335252242&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Coronation-Ode-Spirit-England/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335252242&sr=1-1)
I have finally acquired this disc. I have not been to able to sit down and have a proper uninterupted listen yet. When I do, I shall post here. Preliminary impressions are mixed, but I want to really listen to it in good sound before I commit.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 24, 2012, 07:58:21 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 24, 2012, 06:16:43 AM
I have finally acquired this disc.

Just in case clarification is needed: my ultra-passionate love is for the Spirit of England part of this disc - not the Coronation Ode. Not that I have anything against the latter, but it would be a long way down my personal 'Elgar favourites' list.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2012, 08:00:49 AM
Quote from: Lethevich on April 24, 2012, 05:28:27 AM
Nothing wrong with a helping of mustard.

You keep away from my ice cream cone, young lady!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 24, 2012, 08:04:45 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 24, 2012, 08:00:49 AM
You keep away from my ice cream cone, young lady!

[*Thinks, licking lips: 'Aha! Karl has an ice cream cone, eh ...?']
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 24, 2012, 08:35:28 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 23, 2012, 02:06:09 PM
I will :) I've always wanted to increase my Elgar's collection, but unfortunately here in Italy it's a little hard to find recordings which are not the Enigma Variations or Pomp & Circumstance, and unless you're a great lover of classical music, those ones are the only works you could hear talking about. :( I remember a friend of mine called Elgar "the Englishman mad for marches", because of Pomp and Circumstance, I suppose; he left me speechless.
I think I will take a look at Downes' version on Amazon to have a clearer idea of what it is like, I'm rather curious. :)
Haha, well, it would have certainly been a masterpiece, as all Karajan's performances!!

It certainly is a shame that Elgar is so little known, besides those works, outside England. He deserves better!
I think I uploaded the Downes performance to youtube actually, maybe check my 'elgarian497' channel. (I haven't been on that for ages! ;) ) Hopefully it should persuade you to get it! ;)

By the way, do you know The Dream of Gerontius, Ilaria? If so, what do you think?

Quote from: Elgarian on April 23, 2012, 11:28:34 PM
Ilaria, do you have, or have you heard (at this point, groans are heard all around, because this is a drum I frequently bang) his The Spirit of England? In a lifetime of listening to Elgar, this is the piece above all that, for me, expresses his particular sense of longing for an ideal of nobility, chivalry, brotherhood, in the face of tragedy and loss. Out of all my shelvesful of Elgar recordings, this is the one I'd take to my desert island: his most neglected masterpiece. The singing in this particular version is stupendous.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wQo9w-jHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Coronation-Ode-Spirit-England/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335252242&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Coronation-Ode-Spirit-England/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335252242&sr=1-1)

I still need to get that!!!!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on April 24, 2012, 10:37:08 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 24, 2012, 08:35:28 AM
It certainly is a shame that Elgar is so little known, besides those works, outside England. He deserves better!

Yes, Elgar deserves better but it's extremely hard to get people interested of overlooked/misundertood composers. I have learned over the years that for many Elgar is actually somewhat difficult composer to get into. To me Elgar's music spoke strongly and directly the first times I heard it without difficulties apart from the fact that Elgar's more complex works need several listening times to be completely appreciated but even in those cases the first impressions were comprehensible enough. That has been my big mistake; to assume Elgar makes a huge impact to most listeners during the first listening time. For a few years I have been much more humble regarding Elgar. I know now that it will be different path for every person discovering the greatness in Elgar's music, assuming in the end they are going to find anything positive at all.

I have also seen that there are people who are 1000 times more capable advocating Elgar than I am. I gladly leave this arena to them. My role is perhaps to drop a friendly message every now and then to keep this thread active...

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 24, 2012, 12:03:11 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 23, 2012, 11:28:34 PM
Ilaria, do you have, or have you heard (at this point, groans are heard all around, because this is a drum I frequently bang) his The Spirit of England? In a lifetime of listening to Elgar, this is the piece above all that, for me, expresses his particular sense of longing for an ideal of nobility, chivalry, brotherhood, in the face of tragedy and loss. Out of all my shelvesful of Elgar recordings, this is the one I'd take to my desert island: his most neglected masterpiece. The singing in this particular version is stupendous.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wQo9w-jHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Coronation-Ode-Spirit-England/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335252242&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Coronation-Ode-Spirit-England/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335252242&sr=1-1)
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 24, 2012, 08:35:28 AM
It certainly is a shame that Elgar is so little known, besides those works, outside England. He deserves better!
I think I uploaded the Downes performance to youtube actually, maybe check my 'elgarian497' channel. (I haven't been on that for ages! ;) ) Hopefully it should persuade you to get it! ;)

By the way, do you know The Dream of Gerontius, Ilaria? If so, what do you think?

Wow, thank you for the feedback and for sending the amazon link, Alan :) I haven't heard The Spirit of England, but it sounds quite an interesting, brilliant work.

Haha, all right Daniel, I will check your Youtube channel; I'm very curious to listen to the Downes perfomances as you talk so well about them. :)
Of course I know it, I listened to Barbirolli's recording; it's superb composition, very beautiful and glorious, incredibly melodious. ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 24, 2012, 12:41:59 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 24, 2012, 10:37:08 AM
Yes, Elgar deserves better but it's extremely hard to get people interested of overlooked/misundertood composers. I have learned over the years that for many Elgar is actually somewhat difficult composer to get into. To me Elgar's music spoke strongly and directly the first times I heard it without difficulties apart from the fact that Elgar's more complex works need several listening times to be completely appreciated but even in those cases the first impressions were comprehensible enough. That has been my big mistake; to assume Elgar makes a huge impact to most listeners during the first listening time. For a few years I have been much more humble regarding Elgar. I know now that it will be different path for every person discovering the greatness in Elgar's music, assuming in the end they are going to find anything positive at all.

I have also seen that there are people who are 1000 times more capable advocating Elgar than I am. I gladly leave this arena to them. My role is perhaps to drop a friendly message every now and then to keep this thread active...

I have luckily been fortunate to connect with almost every Elgar piece on my first or second hearing... and many became favourites just after those first or second hearings. The only piece I had to listen to slightly more to fully understand and enjoy was the violin concerto. I'm not sure why that was, it's a work I absolutely adore now.

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 24, 2012, 12:03:11 PM
Haha, all right Daniel, I will check your Youtube channel; I'm very curious to listen to the Downes perfomances as you talk so well about them. :)
Of course I know it, I listened to Barbirolli's recording; it's superb composition, very beautiful and glorious, incredibly melodious. ;D


Wonderful, let us know what you think, Ilaria! :)

Glad you know it! 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 24, 2012, 12:45:48 PM
Mike, just going back to the CBSO Gerontius a few weeks ago, what was the organ situation for you? I was really hoping that they would take advantage of the Barbican organ which was amazing in a performance of the Alpine Symphony I saw a few years back, but they didn't, and the little stage organ they used did not come through too much. This is one of the only things that disappointed me about the concert. Still a beautiful concert which I remember very clearly though! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 24, 2012, 01:22:18 PM
About The Dream of Gerontius, there's a window of the Worcester Cathedral representing it, isn't there?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 24, 2012, 01:28:24 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 24, 2012, 01:22:18 PM
About The Dream of Gerontius, there's a window of the Worcester Cathedral representing it, isn't there?

Yes, there is. (if I remember correctly!!!! ;) ) I visited the Cathedral when I went to see Elgar's birthplace. Absolutely beautiful building. I didn't so much like the town centre, which had so much litter around the statue of Elgar, and only one Elgar cd in the massive HMV cd shop... but Elgar's birthplace was absolutely beautiful. I really enjoying seeing it! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 24, 2012, 01:49:17 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 24, 2012, 01:28:24 PM
Yes, there is. (if I remember correctly!!!! ;) ) I visited the Cathedral when I went to see Elgar's birthplace. Absolutely beautiful building. I didn't so much like the town centre, which had so much litter around the statue of Elgar, and only one Elgar cd in the massive HMV cd shop... but Elgar's birthplace was absolutely beautiful. I really enjoying seeing it! :)

Oh, sure, I can certainly imagine Elgar's birthplace is absolutely enchanting, old country cottages are very nice, and the english countryside is so lovely, a very beautiful landscape!! ;D No surprise that Elgar took so much inspiration from it. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 24, 2012, 01:54:09 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 24, 2012, 01:49:17 PM
Oh, sure, I can certainly imagine Elgar's birthplace is absolutely enchanting, old country cottages are very nice, and the english countryside is so lovely, a very beautiful landscape!! ;D No surprise that Elgar took so much inspiration from it. :)

It certainly is! :) And Elgar's birthplace is right in the heart of the English countryside, away from the busy, noisy town centre, and overlooking the Malverns. Very beautiful! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 25, 2012, 06:36:58 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 24, 2012, 01:49:17 PM
Oh, sure, I can certainly imagine Elgar's birthplace is absolutely enchanting, old country cottages are very nice, and the english countryside is so lovely, a very beautiful landscape!! ;D No surprise that Elgar took so much inspiration from it. :)

No need to imagine it, Ilaria. Here are some photos of it (it's sort of a second home, for me!)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/ElgarsBirthplace.jpg)   

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/Birthplace.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/Elgarbirthplace.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/Elgarsculpture.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/00summerhouse2small.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 25, 2012, 07:18:18 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 25, 2012, 06:36:58 AM
No need to imagine it, Ilaria. Here are some photos of it (it's sort of a second home, for me!)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/ElgarsBirthplace.jpg)   

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/Birthplace.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/Elgarbirthplace.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/Elgarsculpture.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/00summerhouse2small.jpg)

Wonderful, absolutely wonderful!! :D I must definitely visit it the next time I'll go to England, along with Cheltenham. ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on April 25, 2012, 07:22:19 AM
And Tunbridge Wells, Ilaria! (just kidding)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 25, 2012, 11:07:23 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 25, 2012, 06:36:58 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/Elgarsculpture.jpg)

You can see a picture of me on the same bench as Elgar on facebook, Ilaria! ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 25, 2012, 11:17:25 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 25, 2012, 11:07:23 AM
You can see a picture of me on the same bench as Elgar on facebook, Ilaria! ;)

I remember it very well, I've already seen it. ;)

Quote from: karlhenning on April 25, 2012, 07:22:19 AM
And Tunbridge Wells, Ilaria! (just kidding)

Haha, why not, after all isn't Kent widely known as the garden of England? ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on April 29, 2012, 08:21:09 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 24, 2012, 12:45:48 PM
Mike, just going back to the CBSO Gerontius a few weeks ago, what was the organ situation for you? I was really hoping that they would take advantage of the Barbican organ which was amazing in a performance of the Alpine Symphony I saw a few years back, but they didn't, and the little stage organ they used did not come through too much. This is one of the only things that disappointed me about the concert. Still a beautiful concert which I remember very clearly though! :)

Sorry to be so tardy in reply: the organ in Birmingham came through firmly. I could see the organist quite well and when he was playing, I was aware of it. But it is nevertheless an integrated and supporting, rather than a star role.

As an aside, I am in chorus for the recording of the 'Spirit of England' that is being suggested. The main reason to get hold of it is that Teresa Cahill tingles the spine with a superbly sung and expressed performance. I wish there was so much more of her on disc. Also, it is a surpassingly beautiful piece of music. We had fun with the other piece which includes a really stirring setting of 'Land of Hope and Glory'.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 29, 2012, 09:28:46 AM
Quote from: knight66 on April 29, 2012, 08:21:09 AM
Sorry to be so tardy in reply: the organ in Birmingham came through firmly. I could see the organist quite well and when he was playing, I was aware of it. But it is nevertheless an integrated and supporting, rather than a star role.

As an aside, I am in chorus for the recording of the 'Spirit of England' that is being suggested. The main reason to get hold of it is that Teresa Cahill tingles the spine with a superbly sung and expressed performance. I wish there was so much more of her on disc. Also, it is a surpassingly beautiful piece of music. We had fun with the other piece which includes a really stirring setting of 'Land of Hope and Glory'.

Mike

No problem, thanks for getting back to me. hmmm... so they used the hall organ? Instead of the smaller stage organ? I was hoping for more organ sound to come through in the performance I went to, could barely hear it, or feel any vibrations. A shame, but the performance was still great. :)

Great! I still need to get hold of that recording.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 29, 2012, 12:16:22 PM
Quote from: knight66 on April 29, 2012, 08:21:09 AM
As an aside, I am in chorus for the recording of the 'Spirit of England' that is being suggested. The main reason to get hold of it is that Teresa Cahill tingles the spine with a superbly sung and expressed performance. I wish there was so much more of her on disc. Also, it is a surpassingly beautiful piece of music. We had fun with the other piece which includes a really stirring setting of 'Land of Hope and Glory'.

@Daniel
I've said it so often that I'm completely out of new ways of saying it, but Mike is quite right.* Apart from Mike's presence in the chorus (which must have ensured the disc's success), Teresa Cahill finds such meaning in the words and the music, and achieves such a level of expression and character of singing, that she completely nails what Elgar was about at that period. Unsurpassable in my view.

Daniel, you really, really do need that record.



* Of course Mike is always right, but particularly so in this case.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on April 29, 2012, 01:09:48 PM
Quote from: knight66 on April 29, 2012, 08:21:09 AMAs an aside, I am in chorus for the recording of the 'Spirit of England' that is being suggested.

Mike

Cool!  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 29, 2012, 01:21:51 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 29, 2012, 12:16:22 PM
@Daniel
I've said it so often that I'm completely out of new ways of saying it, but Mike is quite right.* Apart from Mike's presence in the chorus (which must have ensured the disc's success), Teresa Cahill finds such meaning in the words and the music, and achieves such a level of expression and character of singing, that she completely nails what Elgar was about at that period. Unsurpassable in my view.

Daniel, you really, really do need that record.



* Of course Mike is always right, but particularly so in this case.

Yes... I certainly do. Every time you mention it, I tell myself that I do...

I need more pocket money! ;)

I will get it, as soon as possible! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on May 25, 2012, 04:55:08 AM
I was just on Amazon comparing samples of the symphonies, and discovered several things:

1. Much as I love Barbirolli's EMI set, I must fish out a couple of others and listen to them again: Tate, Solti (try to make the sound less brilliant), maybe even Mackerras.

2. The sets of Previn and Haitink appear to warrant serious investigation. OTOH, those of Colin Davis and Mark Elder don't.

3. There is a recording of 1 (http://www.amazon.com/Elgar-Symphony-No-1-Enigma-Variations/dp/B0029D4ZCK/ref=sr_shvl_album_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337948894&sr=301-1) (MP3 only) by Andrew Davis with the Philharmonia on Decca. By timings, this APPEARS to be the same as recently issued with 2 (http://www.amazon.com/Elgar-Symphonies-Nos-Froissart-Overture/dp/B0036U24UK/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1337948658&sr=1-3) on Signum (I can't get the Signum samples to play). Either way, it seems to be superior to his Teldec/Warner Apex recording (albeit live).

4. I was consistently and pleasantly surprised by samples of the new cycle conducted by Botstein - orchestra perhaps not first rate, but sensitive and committed. Sadly this appears to be download only. Has anyone heard it? (1 (http://www.amazon.com/Elgar-Symphony-No-A-Flat-Major/dp/B003TYL242/ref=sr_shvl_album_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337949729&sr=301-1), 2 (http://www.amazon.com/Elgar-Symphony-No-E-Flat-Major/dp/B003TYQDTQ/ref=sr_shvl_album_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1337949729&sr=301-4))
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on May 25, 2012, 05:17:14 AM
If there are but two symphonies, is it a set? (Not to . . . Grumble . . . or anything . . . .)

Thread duty:

I need to spend some time on the Hillside to-day.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 25, 2012, 06:42:51 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 25, 2012, 05:17:14 AM
If there are but two symphonies, is it a set? (Not to . . . Grumble . . . or anything . . . .)

Thread duty:

I need to spend some time on the Hillside to-day.


Raises a whole new philosophical dimension about what (in CD terms) constitutes a set.

The three Colin Davis LSO recordings (1, 2, 3) look like a set, together on the shelf. [He said, helpfully.]

Curiously (compared with my recent Scheherazade and Planets escapades), I've never been on a formal major quest to try out the whole range of Elgar symphonies out there. In view of my lifelong passion, in particular, for no.1, this may seem strange. But I seem to be content with the 4 or 5 versions that I have, and there's not a dud among 'em, so .....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on May 25, 2012, 07:04:08 AM
Well, and when one of them is the composer's own . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on May 25, 2012, 07:23:56 AM
High time I revisited The Spirit of England, Op.80
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 25, 2012, 07:32:54 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 25, 2012, 07:23:56 AM
High time I revisited The Spirit of England, Op.80

That's the spirit!  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 25, 2012, 11:59:56 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 25, 2012, 07:23:56 AM
High time I revisited The Spirit of England, Op.80

Ah yes. It is ALWAYS high time to do that!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on May 25, 2012, 10:25:26 PM
I listened to Tate and Mackerras in 1. Listening to Tate, whilst appreciating the richly upholstered sound, after a while I realised I was always second-guessing his interpretive gestures - "No, speed up there", "No, give prominence to the solo flute here", "Quieter, for God's sake!" (at the start of the finale).

OTOH, I think I underestimated Mackerras on first hearing. His brisk tempos and light sound made me think he was lightweight, but after Tate, Mackerras sounds so cohesive and thought-through.

This afternoon: the 2nd!


For those who are interested, here are some timings:

Sym 1 -  Solti  |  Tate | Mackerras
I            17.45   20.39   18.52
II             7.08     7.10     7.18
III          12.12   14.16   11.40
IV           11.38   12.22   11.31

Sym 2 -  Solti  |  Tate | Mackerras
I            15.30   19.17   16.13
II           15.30   17.21   15.03
III           7.49     8.28      8.07
IV          12.33   17.23   13.20



EDIT: Perhaps another reason I wasn't initially turned on to the Mackerras - the terrible cover. Look! It's Big Ben and a big Union Jack! Thank God they didn't chuck in a bulldog and a big red bus (probably hidden behind the title panel).

[ASIN]B000XFZSCC[/ASIN]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on May 26, 2012, 04:39:28 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 25, 2012, 11:59:56 AM
Ah yes. It is ALWAYS high time to do that!

And I can never get enough of the magnificent Violin Sonata!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on May 26, 2012, 08:45:14 AM
I'm LOVING what I'm hearing on Barbirolli's Elgar EMI set  :o 8)


Elgar continues to amaze me. What a guy.

8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on May 26, 2012, 12:48:19 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 26, 2012, 04:39:28 AM
And I can never get enough of the magnificent Violin Sonata!

Exactly. Another of those things that it's always high time to listen to.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 01, 2012, 11:04:30 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on May 26, 2012, 12:48:19 PM
Exactly. Another of those things that it's always high time to listen to.

I could easily get into a once-a-day habit with the Violin Sonata.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 01, 2012, 11:42:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 01, 2012, 11:04:30 AM
I could easily get into a once-a-day habit with the Violin Sonata.

There have been times when I actually did!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 01, 2012, 11:50:46 AM
Does not surprise me!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on June 02, 2012, 09:29:01 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 26, 2012, 08:45:14 AM
I'm LOVING what I'm hearing on Barbirolli's Elgar EMI set  :o 8)
It's hard to go wrong with Sir John.  I just might spin his Elgar 2 a bit later ... it's been a while!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 08, 2012, 06:14:44 AM
Daniel's current listening reminds me that I need to revisit the Third Symphony.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on June 08, 2012, 06:22:16 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 08, 2012, 06:14:44 AM
Daniel's current listening reminds me that I need to revisit the Third Symphony.

Funnily enough, I was just about to post here about that, Karl! :) Yes - really enjoying it very much as ever. It's been too long since I listened to it last, in full. Such a great piece which I love so very much. Thinking back, I think it was actually the first out of the '3' that I listened to.... Only around two years later did I discover the second symphony, and the first symphony not long after that. A rather strange order... ;)

So, out of the 5 recordings available (Daniel, C.Davis, A.Davis, Hickox and Otaka), which is everyone's favourite? The Paul Daniel recording on Naxos is the one I listen to most, although I own the C.Davis too. I do hope to purchase the other three at some point though.

And I am also considering, when I have the money, to buy Anthony Payne's book about the 3rd symphony, anyone here read it?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 08, 2012, 06:33:50 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on June 08, 2012, 06:22:16 AMAnd I am also considering, when I have the money, to buy Anthony Payne's book about the 3rd symphony, anyone here read it?

Yes - it's superb. At least, the narrative is enthralling (I can't follow much of the musical discourse). I saw him in a bar in Malvern a year or so ago, and walked over, shook his hand, and said thank you for the third symphony. The whole encounter lasted about 5 seconds. ( I worried about intruding on him, but he seemed pleased.)

Another valuable book that sheds light on the background to the 3rd symphony is Kevin Allen's Elgar in Love:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415CML2yDZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Vera Hockman emerges as the inspiration for the lovely (and deeply feminine in an Elgarian sense) second theme that's introduced early in the first movement.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 08, 2012, 06:40:37 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on June 08, 2012, 06:22:16 AM
So, out of the 5 recordings available (Daniel, C.Davis, A.Davis, Hickox and Otaka), which is everyone's favourite? The Paul Daniel recording on Naxos is the one I listen to most, although I own the C.Davis too. I do hope to purchase the other three at some point though.

I have the same two as you do, and like you, mostly find myself reaching for the Daniel. However, I also have this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lB7bDE5ZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

On this CD Payne takes you step by step through his 'reconstruction'.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002687H/$%7B0%7D (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002687H/$%7B0%7D)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on June 08, 2012, 06:57:37 AM
Thank you for the reply, Alan. Wonderful that you met Anthony Payne, and that you got to thank him for the 3rd symphony. I shall certainly make sure to get that book at some point then. And the other book you recommend also sounds very interesting so I shall try and get that in the future too. Oh yes, the lyrical theme from the first movement certainly is incredibly beautiful and romantic. Thought it must have been inspired by love! :)

And thank you for mentioning the A.Davis with the commentary from Payne, listening to some short excerpts on Amazon, it certainly sounds interesting. Certainly something I would be keen to get.
Thanks again, Alan!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on June 09, 2012, 06:46:05 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 08, 2012, 06:40:37 AM
I have the same two as you do, and like you, mostly find myself reaching for the Daniel. However, I also have this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lB7bDE5ZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

On this CD Payne takes you step by step through his 'reconstruction'.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002687H/$%7B0%7D (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002687H/$%7B0%7D)

Awesome that you meant Mr. Payne! And thanks for the heads up on the recording above!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 13, 2012, 01:29:55 PM
Opening night concert of the Grant Park Orchestra's season is tonight. Broadcast live on www.wfmt.com at 6:30 PM Central (7:30 Eastern). Program is Pomp and Circumstance, Elgar's Cello Concerto, and Dvorak Symphony #8.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 15, 2012, 10:53:11 AM
Who was the soloist, Greg?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 19, 2012, 05:12:28 AM
Well, I spent the last few weeks listening to two versions of Elgar's Spirit of England. My overall preference hasn't really changed, but my appreciation of both has increased. Overall, I still prefer the Dutton. However, this is because of certain choices that create a different impact compared to the Chandos. That is, both do what they do quite well. Ultimately, it comes down more to what factors the listener is interested in than faulting one or the other for doing something badly. 

Version 1: Gibson/Chandos. Singer:  Teresa Cahill (sop)
[asin]B000000A9N[/asin]
This one has huge impact in its fullness. It fills the ears/room with sound. It is a bit more to the side of fire and brimstone in its tuttis, but it still brings warmth and emotion in some of the quieter moments. The soprano is not entirely to my liking. Her voice is rich and powerful and she certainly conveys emotion in her singing. But I find her vibrato a bit irritating and she doesn't float well where I feel the score can use that (for example the second section " To Women", there are times where she cannot seem to dial it back quite enough to allow a bit more depth/lightness – instead she belts out where I'd prefer her to show more restraint). Her entry in the first movement is not as impactful as I was expecting either. But she clearly feels the part well, and the balance is just right for the impact they want. The third movement is a bit heavy, but the lament is heart-felt and the impact has much power.


Version 2: Lloyd-Jones/Dutton, Singers: Susan Gritton (sop), Andrew Kennedy (tenor)
[asin]B000JLPNO8[/asin]
This one doesn't have quite the fullness and bombast that the Gibson had. I wouldn't have minded a bit more in some moments, but overall the concept here is consistent as well. In general, this version is a bit more light on its feet (in part because of faster tempos) as well as being more transparent. This chorus floats more and I like this impact on the piece. The soprano here, Susan Gritton, does not have quite the same power and darkness, but her lighter approach matches well what the chorus and orchestra are doing. I also preferred how she could sing her top notes in a more restrained way when the piece called for it (an example being about 2/3 through the third movement, where her voice melds beautifully with the chorus). The interesting thing here is having a tenor for the central movement (To Women). I liked the male voice here – very expressive, though there are moments he is perhaps too open in his technique.  But both singers fit well with the overall concept of the piece. In the third movement, this one almost seems ethereal in moments and I find the ending to be entirely convincing (perhaps the best part of it), and quite powerful in its beauty.

So when we get down to it – two very good versions. And I certainly enjoyed getting to know the piece better.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 19, 2012, 12:34:33 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on June 19, 2012, 05:12:28 AM
Well, I spent the last few weeks listening to two versions of Elgar's Spirit of England. My overall preference hasn't really changed, but my appreciation of both has increased. Overall, I still prefer the Dutton. However, this is because of certain choices that create a different impact compared to the Chandos. That is, both do what they do quite well. Ultimately, it comes down more to what factors the listener is interested in than faulting one or the other for doing something badly. 

Version 1: Gibson/Chandos. Singer:  Teresa Cahill (sop)
[asin]B000000A9N[/asin]
This one has huge impact in its fullness. It fills the ears/room with sound. It is a bit more to the side of fire and brimstone in its tuttis, but it still brings warmth and emotion in some of the quieter moments. The soprano is not entirely to my liking. Her voice is rich and powerful and she certainly conveys emotion in her singing. But I find her vibrato a bit irritating and she doesn't float well where I feel the score can use that (for example the second section " To Women", there are times where she cannot seem to dial it back quite enough to allow a bit more depth/lightness – instead she belts out where I'd prefer her to show more restraint). Her entry in the first movement is not as impactful as I was expecting either. But she clearly feels the part well, and the balance is just right for the impact they want. The third movement is a bit heavy, but the lament is heart-felt and the impact has much power.


Version 2: Lloyd-Jones/Dutton, Singers: Susan Gritton (sop), Andrew Kennedy (tenor)
[asin]B000JLPNO8[/asin]
This one doesn't have quite the fullness and bombast that the Gibson had. I wouldn't have minded a bit more in some moments, but overall the concept here is consistent as well. In general, this version is a bit more light on its feet (in part because of faster tempos) as well as being more transparent. This chorus floats more and I like this impact on the piece. The soprano here, Susan Gritton, does not have quite the same power and darkness, but her lighter approach matches well what the chorus and orchestra are doing. I also preferred how she could sing her top notes in a more restrained way when the piece called for it (an example being about 2/3 through the third movement, where her voice melds beautifully with the chorus). The interesting thing here is having a tenor for the central movement (To Women). I liked the male voice here – very expressive, though there are moments he is perhaps too open in his technique.  But both singers fit well with the overall concept of the piece. In the third movement, this one almost seems ethereal in moments and I find the ending to be entirely convincing (perhaps the best part of it), and quite powerful in its beauty.

So when we get down to it – two very good versions. And I certainly enjoyed getting to know the piece better.

You've articulated this beautifully - with such clarity that I can concur we're hearing the same things but respond to them differently. So for example, I think your description of Susan Gritton's lighter and more restrained approach is spot on, but it doesn't have the same effect on me as it does for you. Similarly the fullness of the Gibson sound is a marked difference, but that's the approach I feel the music calls for. I can easily see, however, that for some it may seem too heavy-handed - just as the Lloyd Jones seems to me to be a little too lightweight. What rules the Lloyd Jones version out of court, for me, though, is the tenor-led middle section. I just can't cope with that. And you sum all this up perfectly with your comment that 'it comes down more to what factors the listener is interested in than faulting one or the other for doing something badly'.

In my case there's one other factor that influences me above all others. The first time I heard The Spirit of England it was the Gibson version, and it completely floored me. I'd thought up to that time that I 'understood' Elgar and his music pretty well. One hearing of this recording made me realise that I most certainly did not; and by a huge margin. When that sort of thunderclap happens, it's life-changing (at least as far as music is concerned), and the performance in question assumes something like divine status. The outcome was that it seemed to me then, and still seems to me now, that Cahill and Gibson between them had given me an insight into Elgar that I could never have achieved without them. Obviously this is a deeply personal thing, and one that others probably won't share. But I can't listen to the Gibson version, even now, without remembering and reliving that experience of transcendence, of complete entry into the Elgarian world view. I don't think there's any way in which I can step outside that.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 20, 2012, 12:39:40 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 19, 2012, 12:34:33 PM
You've articulated this beautifully - with such clarity that I can concur we're hearing the same things but respond to them differently. So for example, I think your description of Susan Gritton's lighter and more restrained approach is spot on, but it doesn't have the same effect on me as it does for you. Similarly the fullness of the Gibson sound is a marked difference, but that's the approach I feel the music calls for. I can easily see, however, that for some it may seem too heavy-handed - just as the Lloyd Jones seems to me to be a little too lightweight. What rules the Lloyd Jones version out of court, for me, though, is the tenor-led middle section. I just can't cope with that. And you sum all this up perfectly with your comment that 'it comes down more to what factors the listener is interested in than faulting one or the other for doing something badly'.

In my case there's one other factor that influences me above all others. The first time I heard The Spirit of England it was the Gibson version, and it completely floored me. I'd thought up to that time that I 'understood' Elgar and his music pretty well. One hearing of this recording made me realise that I most certainly did not; and by a huge margin. When that sort of thunderclap happens, it's life-changing (at least as far as music is concerned), and the performance in question assumes something like divine status. The outcome was that it seemed to me then, and still seems to me now, that Cahill and Gibson between them had given me an insight into Elgar that I could never have achieved without them. Obviously this is a deeply personal thing, and one that others probably won't share. But I can't listen to the Gibson version, even now, without remembering and reliving that experience of transcendence, of complete entry into the Elgarian world view. I don't think there's any way in which I can step outside that.

And I don't think you should try to. We all have performances to which we are emotionally attached, and for the most part I think these yield positive results for us. If music doesn't move me (in some way), well that is a piece I am unlikely to return to often. Even if we delve all the secrets from such performances (which is unlikely even over many years), the performance is a reminder of what can be and how we can think of music (and our lives). 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 20, 2012, 01:08:00 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on June 20, 2012, 12:39:40 AM
And I don't think you should try to.

Exactly: it's far too precious a thing to fool around with.

I'd be interested to hear your opinion of the other version sometime - with Felicity Lott as soloist, and Hickox conducting. It's very beautiful (of course) and you might actually prefer that version - remembering your comments on vibrato etc. To these ears, though, she seems to express no insight into the meaning of the words she's singing. They seem 'just' beautifully sung (though I feel ungrateful saying that!); and if Lott/Hickox had been the first version I'd heard, I don't think it would have triggered my Spirit of England epiphany. But it would be very interesting to have your thoughts on it.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 20, 2012, 03:49:05 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 20, 2012, 01:08:00 AM
Exactly: it's far too precious a thing to fool around with.

I'd be interested to hear your opinion of the other version sometime - with Felicity Lott as soloist, and Hickox conducting. It's very beautiful (of course) and you might actually prefer that version - remembering your comments on vibrato etc. To these ears, though, she seems to express no insight into the meaning of the words she's singing. They seem 'just' beautifully sung (though I feel ungrateful saying that!); and if Lott/Hickox had been the first version I'd heard, I don't think it would have triggered my Spirit of England epiphany. But it would be very interesting to have your thoughts on it.


I see it is sort of OOP, and getting a copy at a decent price may be an issue, but I'll keep an eye out for it.

One other thing about the Chandos issue that I find curious is the number of different covers it has. As best I can tell, it has at least four:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wQo9w-jHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/38/c5/290a225b9da0bae14422c010.L._AA300_.jpg)
(http://www.chandos.net/hiresart/CHAN%206574.jpg)(http://img.importcds.com/b/500/5/9/8/6/106895.jpg)

Only the middle two are available on the Chandos site. The first is available at Amazon (and perhaps other sites), but I have found the last picture only at one site so far. It is strange to see four so varied covers for the same issue (often re-issues try to use something of the previous cover or if they do make a break at some point, it is not usually so many). It's a curious thing.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 20, 2012, 04:34:10 AM
An effusion of cover art, to be sure.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on June 20, 2012, 11:00:10 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on June 20, 2012, 03:49:05 AM
One other thing about the Chandos issue that I find curious is the number of different covers it has. As best I can tell, it has at least four:

I have the "dark brown" cover. I need to listen to the CD again soon.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 20, 2012, 11:01:57 AM
I have the Union-Jack-detail cover.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 20, 2012, 11:23:00 AM
I have the dark brown and gold cover too.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on June 20, 2012, 10:37:41 PM
I have the King in his crown, which I think is the original CD cover. Again interesting to read how differently the same voice strikes different ears. I would describe Cahill as having vibrancy, not a vibrato......I dislike a vibrato in the main. Try out Gwyneth Jones for the pronounced version of that trait. (Not In the Elgar, just as voice example.) To my ears Lott always sounds plaid, though some listeners cannot get enough of her. I never feel she is really putting her back into it.

So, Cahill for me in the Elgar under discussion, irreplaceable.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on June 20, 2012, 10:50:42 PM
Quote from: knight66 on June 20, 2012, 10:37:41 PMTo my ears Lott always sounds plaid

???
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on June 20, 2012, 10:56:27 PM
Just how I hear her in the main. She gentles her way round music and puts me in mind of Isobel Bailey's mantra, "Never sing louder than lovely."

No doubt examples of her sounding like she is making a bit of an effort could be exhumed, but I long since gave up on her gentile art, the Julie Andrews of the opera world.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 21, 2012, 02:09:58 AM
Just a spoonful of sugar, Mike . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on June 21, 2012, 07:29:58 AM
Were it only one spoonful!

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 21, 2012, 07:32:36 AM
Quote from: knight66 on June 21, 2012, 07:29:58 AM
Were it only one spoonful!

Mike

Forsooth!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 21, 2012, 07:55:48 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 20, 2012, 11:00:10 AM
I have the "dark brown" cover.

Quote from: Elgarian on June 20, 2012, 11:23:00 AM
I have the dark brown and gold cover too.

Quote from: karlhenning on June 20, 2012, 11:01:57 AM
I have the Union-Jack-detail cover.

Quote from: knight66 on June 20, 2012, 10:37:41 PM
I have the King in his crown, which I think is the original CD cover.

Since we're all confessing: mine's the Union Jack.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 21, 2012, 08:02:30 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 21, 2012, 07:55:48 AM
Since we're all confessing: mine's the Union Jack.

Sarge
Apparently, this might make a fun poll. Who knew?!? :)  (And I have the Union Jack cover too, though I thought I would be getting the brown one based on the picture at the site I bought it)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 21, 2012, 10:55:08 AM
It seems that the green cover must be exceedingly rare!!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on June 21, 2012, 01:21:59 PM
The disc itself is much less rare than I had supposed. If they keep issuing it in different covers, eventually everyone will have a copy, or in some, curiously, two.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: snyprrr on June 21, 2012, 07:54:22 PM
ok, straight up, what is the fuss about Elgar? Did he invent a minor ninth or something? seriously, I'm not mocking,... just tell me,... which movement is it? Which is 'The One'? I gather, too, that only certain conductors get how to 'do' the thing.

I know, I'm sorry, it sounds crass. I mean, I love the Big Melody i9n the Cello Concerto. And I get the Piano Quintet,... I even have a disc of Elgar fun things on Chandos that I haven't listened to in 15 years.

If I were an Elgar junkie, and I needed a fix BADDD, what single arch of music will I go for? Besides Finzi! :-*
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 22, 2012, 01:06:54 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 21, 2012, 07:54:22 PM
I love the Big Melody in the Cello Concerto. And I get the Piano Quintet,...

With those two pieces you may have answered your own question. To those I might add (perhaps in this order, but they're all quintessential Elgar):

The Spirit of England (See all the comments above, but when you've read 'em, get the Cahill/Gibson version and thrill to the freedom of choosing the cover you most like.)
Enigma Variations
Violin sonata
Violin concerto
1st symphony

I know you asked for the quick fix, but apart from the ubiquitous 'Nimrod' from Enigma, I'm not sure it can be done in bits very well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 22, 2012, 01:14:56 AM
Quote from: knight66 on June 20, 2012, 10:37:41 PM
I would describe Cahill as having vibrancy, not a vibrato......I dislike a vibrato in the main.

Yes that sounds right Mike, and thanks for the clarification - I too struggle with a prominent vibrato as a rule (we've had similar discussions before, haven't we?), but I've never thought of it as a problem here.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on June 22, 2012, 05:49:53 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 21, 2012, 07:54:22 PM
ok, straight up, what is the fuss about Elgar? Did he invent a minor ninth or something?
Elgar invented and patented his own soup.

Quote from: snyprrr on June 21, 2012, 07:54:22 PMIf I were an Elgar junkie, and I needed a fix BADDD, what single arch of music will I go for? Besides Finzi! :-*

Quick fix in 5 minutes: Elegy, Op. 58

Fix in 60 minutes: Symphony No. 2, Op. 63

Full fix (2 hours): The Apostless, Op. 49
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2012, 05:58:21 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 22, 2012, 05:49:53 AM
Quick fix in 5 minutes: Elegy, Op. 58

A lovely piece, I agree; but I am doubtful that that is the sort of Elgar piece to sell snypsss.

I should happily learn that it us otherwise, of course.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 22, 2012, 06:33:59 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 22, 2012, 05:58:21 AM
A lovely piece, I agree; but I am doubtful that that is the sort of Elgar piece to sell snypsss.

I should happily learn that it us otherwise, of course.

I just listened to that today by chance. Wonderful piece.  I always like the Cockaigne Overture when I want a short Elgar piece.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on June 22, 2012, 07:03:14 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 21, 2012, 10:55:08 AM
It seems that the green cover must be exceedingly rare!!

I have the green one!! And the news that I own something that is exceedingly rare helps somewhat, because, although the disc itself is stunning (and renewed thanks for Alan for pointing it in our/my direction), I always thought the green cover was both plain and ugly. But if it's rare, well...that makes a difference.   ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2012, 07:08:39 AM
Oh, 'tis a rare pain, that's sartain . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on June 22, 2012, 07:12:02 AM
oops!  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2012, 07:14:14 AM
Hah! But I did enjoy the typo so . . . was not apparently a typo, save that I thought you omitted "a pain."
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2012, 07:14:46 AM
Some colors, truly, are pert near visual pain.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on June 22, 2012, 07:15:58 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 22, 2012, 05:49:53 AM
Elgar invented and patented his own soup.
;D ( :o )
Bravo!

Quote from: karlhenning on June 22, 2012, 07:14:46 AM
Some colors, truly, are pert near visual pain.
Not to mention plaids.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on June 22, 2012, 07:19:07 AM
If we're spotting typos, I quite like this one....

Quote from: 71 dB on June 22, 2012, 05:49:53 AM
Full fix (2 hours): The Apostless, Op. 49

Those poor folk, scraping through life without even a single Apost...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2012, 07:21:14 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 22, 2012, 07:15:58 AM
Not to mention plaids.

Oh, don't get me started on paisleys . . . .

Quote from: Luke on June 22, 2012, 07:19:07 AM
If we're spotting typos, I quite like this one....

Those poor folk, scraping through life without even a single Apost...

Nice!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 22, 2012, 08:02:31 AM
Quote from: Luke on June 22, 2012, 07:19:07 AM
Those poor folk, scraping through life without even a single Apost...

Alas, we are among the Apostless. I've just been ransacking our cupboards - I know we had a whole bunch of Aposts stashed away for a rainy day, but they've all gone! I think there's an Apost Burglar at large!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 22, 2012, 08:06:44 AM
Quote from: Luke on June 22, 2012, 07:03:14 AM
I have the green one!! And the news that I own something that is exceedingly rare helps somewhat, because, although the disc itself is stunning (and renewed thanks for Alan for pointing it in our/my direction), I always thought the green cover was both plain and ugly. But if it's rare, well...that makes a difference.

My dear fellow - Congratulations! It makes all the difference; and should you ever hit upon hard times, you'll be able to sell it for far more than the other common CD covers fetch. 5 or 10 pence more, at least. Maybe even higher. Meanwhile, spare a thought for of all of us, with faces so envious as to match the colour of your CD.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on June 22, 2012, 08:15:53 AM
I could hardly care less about the music -- but a chance to collect different coloured covers?  Sign me up at once!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 22, 2012, 08:19:28 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 22, 2012, 08:15:53 AM
I could hardly care less about the music -- but a chance to collect different coloured covers?  Sign me up at once!

That's the spirit, Dave! Go for broke!

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2012, 12:53:36 PM
Which cover have you got for Bean, Alan?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 23, 2012, 12:43:21 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 22, 2012, 12:53:36 PM
Which cover have you got for Bean, Alan?

I have this one, Karl (the 2CD set with the chamber music):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

But here's the thing. I don't believe I knew there was an alternative! (Or if I did, I'd forgotten.)

Just another example of the rich educational rewards available at GMG! Now, where's the trainspotters thread?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on June 23, 2012, 03:22:53 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 23, 2012, 12:43:21 AM
I have this one, Karl (the 2CD set with the chamber music):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

But here's the thing. I don't believe I knew there was an alternative! (Or if I did, I'd forgotten.)

Just another example of the rich educational rewards available at GMG! Now, where's the trainspotters thread?

If I am not mistaken, this whole 2 CD set is included in the EMI 30 CD Elgar box which I have.  :P
So, in a way there is an alternative cover art for this music/performance.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 23, 2012, 03:33:10 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 23, 2012, 03:22:53 AM
If I am not mistaken, this whole 2 CD set is included in the EMI 30 CD Elgar box which I have.  :P
So, in a way there is an alternative cover art for this music/performance.
There is this as well:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21AEGNRNX4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2012, 05:43:54 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 23, 2012, 12:43:21 AM
I have this one, Karl (the 2CD set with the chamber music):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

But here's the thing. I don't believe I knew there was an alternative! (Or if I did, I'd forgotten.)

Strictly spoke, there's not. I have the concerto and sonata as a single disc, and hence under a different cover....
Title: Re: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2012, 07:00:30 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on June 23, 2012, 03:33:10 AM
There is this as well:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21AEGNRNX4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Aye, 'at's the one! I was sorry that Alan's two-fer eluded me, as I want to check out the other chamber works....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 23, 2012, 07:18:16 AM
If one had all these versions, one could truly say: 'Bean there. Done that.'
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on June 23, 2012, 09:46:05 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 23, 2012, 07:18:16 AM
If one had all these versions, one could truly say: 'Bean there. Done that.'

Hah!  ;D :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on July 14, 2012, 08:21:41 PM
David Hurwitz just posted a review called "CD from Hell: Svetlanov's Elgar". It's behind a paywall, so I can't read the review, but I've already learned everything I need to know. SVETLANOV'S ELGAR. I MUST HEAR THIS.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 15, 2012, 02:48:25 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 14, 2012, 08:21:41 PM
David Hurwitz just posted a review called "CD from Hell: Svetlanov's Elgar". It's behind a paywall, so I can't read the review, but I've already learned everything I need to know. SVETLANOV'S ELGAR. I MUST HEAR THIS.

Is this the same one he gave a 4/10 for artistic value and 6/10 sound quality? I was blocked in reading it to.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 15, 2012, 04:11:56 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 14, 2012, 08:21:41 PM
David Hurwitz just posted a review called "CD from Hell: Svetlanov's Elgar". It's behind a paywall, so I can't read the review, but I've already learned everything I need to know. SVETLANOV'S ELGAR. I MUST HEAR THIS.

Svetlanov's Second is an interesting, even wild performance, generally on the swift side, especially the first movement (13:50) which is a minute and half faster than Solti  :o and even beats Elgar's own recording to the finish line. Good recorded sound although sometimes the brass (raw, with good-old fashioned Soviet-era vibrato) overwhelm the strings. The coupled Sea Pictures, though, won't make you forget Barbirolli and Baker. Sung in Russian by a singer who is not my, or I think anyone's cup of tea. More like a blast of rough home-distilled vodka.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/ngmg/ESvet.jpg)

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on July 15, 2012, 06:39:10 AM
She sang the Sea Songs as if perched on the frozen dock at Arkhangelsk . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on July 15, 2012, 10:48:15 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 22, 2012, 12:49:04 PM
Thought I'd throw a spanner into the first symphony works. I have wondered at various times during the last few years whether my favourite performance of the 1st symphony might be that given by Boult at the 1976 Proms on 28 July (his last performance of it at the Proms), but there seemed little point in mentioning it, because it was issued on CD in 2006, free with BBC Music Magazine, and would be almost unobtainable now I should imagine. Being a live recording, there's the occasional cough, etc - but the recording quality is very atmospheric and spacious and - more importantly - the performance itself is superb. One feels that Boult has a complete grasp of the structure of the piece (as well he might, after a lifetime of conducting it), and that here he is presenting it as an almost unanswerably complete Elgarian statement of intent. It sparkles with life from beginning to end, and the final movement is immensely moving.

Now, the other day the latest Elgar Society Journal dropped onto the doormat, and I turned to the CD review pages - and here is the very same recording, now commercially released on ICA:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C%2Bmocz81L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Amazon uk link:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-Elgar-Adrian-Symphony-Classics/dp/B006VOX7Q8/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335126619&sr=1-1-fkmr0 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-Elgar-Adrian-Symphony-Classics/dp/B006VOX7Q8/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335126619&sr=1-1-fkmr0)

The reviewer in the Elgar Society mag (Richard Wiley) writes that here 'Boult brought off one of his truly great Elgar performances'. It 'has tremendous vitality and sense of purpose'. 'If you have never heard this performance, then without doubt you should take this opportunity'. He also quotes Martin Cotton, who wrote the CD booklet notes and who was present at the actual performance: 'it was one of the greatest musical experiences of my life, relived every time I hear it again'.

So it seems I hadn't been imagining the remarkable character of this performance. At least, here was one reviewer who wouldn't think so. And so I can now include this here in the symphonic melting pot as another possible top contender for a supreme Elgar 1 on record. If you want more opinions, take a look at the reviews on Amazon uk at the above link. They all say pretty much the same ....

Forgive me for quoting myself in full above, but I now have another response to this late live recording of the 1st Symphony under Boult. It's now been reviewed in Gramophone, and is listed among their top choices for the month: 'a traversal of towering perception, possessing an edge-of-seat thrust, entrancing wholeness of vision and extraordinary emotional candour. ... Absolutely not to be missed'. I must say I find this quite reassuring: I have myself considered it to be possibly the finest of the performances I know (I own it in its previous incarnation when it was given away with BBC Music Magazine), and have wondered whether that was just a personal idiosyncratic view. Well, first the Elgar Society reviewer, and now Gramophone, tell me: not so.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on July 15, 2012, 11:24:44 AM
I applaud you, friend!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on July 15, 2012, 06:21:34 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 14, 2012, 08:21:41 PMDavid Hurwitz just posted a review called "CD from Hell: Svetlanov's Elgar". It's behind a paywall, so I can't read the review, but I've already learned everything I need to know. SVETLANOV'S ELGAR. I MUST HEAR THIS.

x2  :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 15, 2012, 06:26:07 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on July 15, 2012, 10:48:15 AM
Forgive me for quoting myself in full above, but I now have another response to this late live recording of the 1st Symphony under Boult. It's now been reviewed in Gramophone, and is listed among their top choices for the month: 'a traversal of towering perception, possessing an edge-of-seat thrust, entrancing wholeness of vision and extraordinary emotional candour. ... Absolutely not to be missed'. I must say I find this quite reassuring: I have myself considered it to be possibly the finest of the performances I know (I own it in its previous incarnation when it was given away with BBC Music Magazine), and have wondered whether that was just a personal idiosyncratic view. Well, first the Elgar Society reviewer, and now Gramophone, tell me: not so.

Just found this on Spotify, excited for a listen. Who knows, I could always use a ninth recording of Elgar's no.1, especially if it's that good.  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 15, 2012, 07:01:27 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C%2Bmocz81L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Sold! To the man in, the flannel pajamas  :o ;D

I started with the second movement, kinda of on accident but just rolled with it. This performance's tempo is as brisk as I've ever heard, and although I prefer my 2nd Symphony much broader in scope, I've always found the 1st Symphony, or at least the majority of the 1st to succeed at a quicker pace. The swift third movement flows beautifully and the final movement packs a real punch, so very well done. The audience's reaction is priceless, makes one dream of being able to witness it with your own eyes.
Thanks for posting, Alan.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on July 16, 2012, 01:48:33 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 15, 2012, 07:01:27 PM
Sold! To the man in, the flannel pajamas  :o ;D

I started with the second movement, kinda of on accident but just rolled with it. This performance's tempo is as brisk as I've ever heard, and although I prefer my 2nd Symphony much broader in scope, I've always found the 1st Symphony, or at least the majority of the 1st to succeed at a quicker pace. The swift third movement flows beautifully and the final movement packs a real punch, so very well done. The audience's reaction is priceless, makes one dream of being able to witness it with your own eyes.
Thanks for posting, Alan.

I'm relieved to hear that it went well! Recommending stuff can sometimes be an anxious process, as there are times when one simply isn't sure of one's ground beyond one's own personal response - particularly when (as here) there's no shortage of excellent performances of the work to choose from. Hoorah!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 16, 2012, 02:54:51 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on July 16, 2012, 01:48:33 AM
I'm relieved to hear that it went well! Recommending stuff can sometimes be an anxious process, as there are times when one simply isn't sure of one's ground beyond one's own personal response - particularly when (as here) there's no shortage of excellent performances of the work to choose from. Hoorah!

Very true, but if you feel this passionate about something, chances are the reason for that is justified and sharing the experience with others just amplifies your own. I've recommended my share of duds and then returned to them and wonder "what the hell is wrong with that person, this recording is wonderful!"  ;D
Plus, how can you argue with Boult, BBC Symphony, the Proms, Elgar's 1st...such a delicious combination.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on July 16, 2012, 08:24:39 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 16, 2012, 02:54:51 AM
Plus, how can you argue with Boult, BBC Symphony, the Proms, Elgar's 1st...such a delicious combination.

That's a good clincher, Greg! I also like the idea that, close to the end, all that lifetime of experience paid off and Boult nailed the symphony so completely on a notable public occasion and it was recorded.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on July 16, 2012, 08:44:06 AM
Well, I tried again and this time I found it on Amazon.  (The fewer the words in the search, the better the results, apparently). 

Anyway, it's a bit pricey.  But, I miss my old Boult LP of this symphony, and it sounds like this live performance may be the way to go.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 16, 2012, 10:15:52 AM
Quote from: Vesteralen on July 16, 2012, 08:44:06 AM
Well, I tried again and this time I found it on Amazon.  (The fewer the words in the search, the better the results, apparently). 

Anyway, it's a bit pricey.  But, I miss my old Boult LP of this symphony, and it sounds like this live performance may be the way to go.

If you're cool with MP3s it's available on iTunes for $7.99.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on July 16, 2012, 10:22:09 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 16, 2012, 10:15:52 AM
If you're cool with MP3s it's available on iTunes for $7.99.

It took me 10 years to buy my first CD.   ;)

At this stage, the only thing I have is a stereo that has a spot to plug in an MP3 player.  By the time I get my first player, they will probably be two years from obsolescence.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on July 16, 2012, 11:27:32 AM
Quote from: Vesteralen on July 16, 2012, 10:22:09 AM
It took me 10 years to buy my first CD.   ;)

At this stage, the only thing I have is a stereo that has a spot to plug in an MP3 player.  By the time I get my first player, they will probably be two years from obsolescence.  :)

How about a decent pair of headphones, which you can plug into your computer (that seems to improve the computer sound immeasurably).   Your computer will play MP3 files easily (with Windows Media Player if nothing else).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on July 17, 2012, 03:22:42 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 16, 2012, 11:27:32 AM
How about a decent pair of headphones, which you can plug into your computer (that seems to improve the computer sound immeasurably).   Your computer will play MP3 files easily (with Windows Media Player if nothing else).

Sounds like a good idea.  But, since I do most of my listening at work (where I can't wear headphones) or driving, I might have to wait for a life-style change first.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 21, 2012, 04:06:24 PM
Been doing a lot of comparisons with my Elgar Symphony recordings lately, wondering if I'm missing any that you might consider as must own. Here's my collection so far...

No.1 - A.Davis, Solti, Sinopoli, Tate, Slatkin, Barbirolli, Zinman, Previn, Boult (EMI), Boult (Live)
No.2 - A.Davis, Solti, Sinopoli, Tate, Slatkin, Barbirolli, Elder, C.Davis (LSOLive)
No.3 - Daniel, C.Davis (LSOLive)

I'm actually trying to figure out which ones I find to be the best in the lot. It's a tough task, as somedays I find Sinopoli's operatic Elgar too epic to be compared, or need only Slatkin's massive-sounding and dark textured presentation (the second movement Allegro Molto of no.1 clocks in at 6:31 and is quite fierce)...but recent purchases of Previn's 1st and Solti's dual recordings, and Boult's live no.1 have me going back for another updated comparison. Curious as to some of your choices for top recordings, spark some more conversation of these remarkable pieces and possibly even dissect what elements interest you the most.

Thanks in advance for any comments, friends. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on July 21, 2012, 05:10:54 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 21, 2012, 04:06:24 PM
Been doing a lot of comparisons with my Elgar Symphonies recordings lately, wondering if I'm missing any that you might consider as must own. Here's my collection so far...

No.1 - A.Davis, Solti, Sinopoli, Tate, Slatkin, Barbirolli, Zinman, Previn, Boult (EMI), Boult (Live)
No.2 - A.Davis, Solti, Sinopoli, Tate, Slatkin, Barbirolli, Elder, C.Davis (LSOLive)
No.3 - Daniel, C.Davis (LSOLive)

I'm actually trying to figure out which ones I find to be the best in the lot. It's a tough task, as somedays I find Sinopoli's operatic Elgar too epic to be compared, or need only Slatkin's massive-sounding and dark texture presentation (the second movement Allegro Molto of no.1 clocks in at 6:31 and is quite fierce)...but recent purchases of Previn's 1st and Solti's dual recordings, and Boult's live no.1 have me going back for another updated comparison. Curious as to some of your choices for top recordings, spark some more conversation of these remarkable pieces and possibly even dissect what elements interest you the most.

Thanks in advance for any comments, friends.

You have quite a lot more than I have, though there's a lot of overlap. The most important difference would be the presence of Elgar's own conducted versions in my list:

No.1 - A.Davis, Slatkin, Barbirolli, C.Davis (LSO Live), Boult (EMI), Boult (Live), Elgar
No.2 - A.Davis, Slatkin, Barbirolli, C.Davis (LSO Live), Boult (EMI), Elgar
No.3 - Daniel, C.Davis (LSO Live)

It's going to sound feebly PC, but I've never really been able to establish a 'best version', beyond my rather vague mumblings about the wonderful late live Boult recording that I've already posted here. Apart from that, put a gun to my head, and I'd probably vote for the well-known, tried and tested EMI Boult recordings, on the grounds that I don't think anyone has understood Elgar's concept of 'nobilmente' quite so well as Boult.

But that said, I've listened completely entranced to every one of those recordings in my list and wouldn't want to lose any of them. I remember in particular one summer evening, in a camping car at the foot of the Malvern Hills, listening to Slatkin's 1st and thinking it was simply perfect. I remember a few years later, one rainy morning in a cottage snuggled into the west side of the Malverns, sitting by a window looking towards Elgar's beloved Birchwood, listening to a whole boxful of Andrew Davis (including the two symphonies) and believing that I could be content with these performances alone, and that others were just a luxury extra. If I listen to Elgar himself conducting, I'm usually shocked by the fast pace, and wonder if I myself actually understand what 'nobilmente' means, after all.

It's quite odd. Given that Elgar's 1st is the symphony I love more than any other symphony by anyone, anywhere, I'd have thought I might have accumulated a lot more recordings of it, but not so. I seem to be perfectly happy with these seven. I'm not sure I can define the differences between them. Certainly I've never played two versions back to back to compare them directly. What I most enjoy is simply forgetting the others except for the one I'm listening to here and now. Which all makes for a very unsatisfactory response to your interesting post, Greg! My apologies.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on July 21, 2012, 05:21:00 PM
Cor, you're up late, Alan!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on July 21, 2012, 05:49:27 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 21, 2012, 05:21:00 PM
Cor, you're up late, Alan!

Had to get out of bed, Karl, with an upset stomach, and was too uncomfortable to go back to sleep. I think (hope) matters have subsided now... G'night all.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on July 21, 2012, 05:50:24 PM
Sweet dreams!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 21, 2012, 07:46:32 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on July 21, 2012, 05:10:54 PM
You have quite a lot more than I have, though there's a lot of overlap. The most important difference would be the presence of Elgar's own conducted versions in my list:

No.1 - A.Davis, Slatkin, Barbirolli, C.Davis (LSO Live), Boult (EMI), Boult (Live), Elgar
No.2 - A.Davis, Slatkin, Barbirolli, C.Davis (LSO Live), Boult (EMI), Elgar
No.3 - Daniel, C.Davis (LSO Live)

It's going to sound feebly PC, but I've never really been able to establish a 'best version', beyond my rather vague mumblings about the wonderful late live Boult recording that I've already posted here. Apart from that, put a gun to my head, and I'd probably vote for the well-known, tried and tested EMI Boult recordings, on the grounds that I don't think anyone has understood Elgar's concept of 'nobilmente' quite so well as Boult.

But that said, I've listened completely entranced to every one of those recordings in my list and wouldn't want to lose any of them. I remember in particular one summer evening, in a camping car at the foot of the Malvern Hills, listening to Slatkin's 1st and thinking it was simply perfect. I remember a few years later, one rainy morning in a cottage snuggled into the west side of the Malverns, sitting by a window looking towards Elgar's beloved Birchwood, listening to a whole boxful of Andrew Davis (including the two symphonies) and believing that I could be content with these performances alone, and that others were just a luxury extra. If I listen to Elgar himself conducting, I'm usually shocked by the fast pace, and wonder if I myself actually understand what 'nobilmente' means, after all.

It's quite odd. Given that Elgar's 1st is the symphony I love more than any other symphony by anyone, anywhere, I'd have thought I might have accumulated a lot more recordings of it, but not so. I seem to be perfectly happy with these seven. I'm not sure I can define the differences between them. Certainly I've never played two versions back to back to compare them directly. What I most enjoy is simply forgetting the others except for the one I'm listening to here and now. Which all makes for a very unsatisfactory response to your interesting post, Greg! My apologies.

Spotify has many recordings of Elgar conducting available and it certainly makes for interesting and enjoyable listening. I'm not always one to think that a composer performing/conducting their own work is always the proper performance, and in Elgar's case just about every piece of his own he conducted is much swifter than any other recorded version.
The music from no.1 and no.2 work well under contrasting styles, Solti's haste compared to the much broader strokes of Sinopoli and Tate offer polar but effective performances, but all aided by Elgar's genius that seems to work at any tempi.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Alan. Sorry to read about your upset stomach, hope you feel better.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on July 22, 2012, 04:16:44 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 21, 2012, 04:06:24 PM
Been doing a lot of comparisons with my Elgar Symphony recordings lately, wondering if I'm missing any that you might consider as must own. Here's my collection so far...

No.1 - A.Davis, Solti, Sinopoli, Tate, Slatkin, Barbirolli, Zinman, Previn, Boult (EMI), Boult (Live)
No.2 - A.Davis, Solti, Sinopoli, Tate, Slatkin, Barbirolli, Elder, C.Davis (LSOLive)
No.3 - Daniel, C.Davis (LSOLive)

I'm actually trying to figure out which ones I find to be the best in the lot. It's a tough task, as somedays I find Sinopoli's operatic Elgar too epic to be compared, or need only Slatkin's massive-sounding and dark textured presentation (the second movement Allegro Molto of no.1 clocks in at 6:31 and is quite fierce)...but recent purchases of Previn's 1st and Solti's dual recordings, and Boult's live no.1 have me going back for another updated comparison. Curious as to some of your choices for top recordings, spark some more conversation of these remarkable pieces and possibly even dissect what elements interest you the most.

Thanks in advance for any comments, friends.

Like Alan (hope you are feeling better now too!), I find it difficult to decide which performances of the symphonies I would call 'the best', although I do have several favourites.

Here are the recordings I own, I have highlighted the ones I particularly love over the others:
no.1: Solti, Elder, A.Davis, C.Davis, Hurst, Boult (EMI), Boult (Lyrita), Barbirolli, Sinopoli, Handley
no.2: Solti, Elder, A.Davis, C.Davis, Boult (EMI), Boult (Lyrita), Downes, Barbirolli, Sinopoli, Elgar, Handley, Slatkin
no.3: C.Davis, Daniel

So, overall I imagine that my three favourites would be Solti, Elder and the EMI Boult. However, I do need to listen to quite a few of these again, Sinopoli's, Barbirolli's, Handley's and Elgar's own mainly.

As to ones that I would highly recommend to you, Downes recording of no.2 is absolutely outstanding. One of my favourites for that symphony.

Glad to see you enjoying the Elgar symphonies so much, Greg! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 04:50:06 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on July 22, 2012, 04:16:44 AM
Like Alan (hope you are feeling better now too!), I find it difficult to decide which performances of the symphonies I would call 'the best', although I do have several favourites.

Here are the recordings I own, I have highlighted the ones I particularly love over the others:
no.1: Solti, Elder, A.Davis, C.Davis, Hurst, Boult (EMI), Boult (Lyrita), Barbirolli, Sinopoli, Handley
no.2: Solti, Elder, A.Davis, C.Davis, Boult (EMI), Boult (Lyrita), Downes, Barbirolli, Sinopoli, Elgar, Handley, Slatkin
no.3: C.Davis, Daniel

So, overall I imagine that my three favourites would be Solti, Elder and the EMI Boult. However, I do need to listen to quite a few of these again, Sinopoli's, Barbirolli's, Handley's and Elgar's own mainly.

As to ones that I would highly recommend to you, Downes recording of no.2 is absolutely outstanding. One of my favourites for that symphony.

Glad to see you enjoying the Elgar symphonies so much, Greg! :)

No.1 and Enigma have been orchestral highlights for over a decade to me, until several years ago I came across Sinopoli's No.2, it was my first listen to that piece, I was taken back by the experience and felt as if I was discovering Elgar's masterpiece, then preceded to slap myself silly for waiting so long (I've since healed from that beating).

I agree with you and Alan, it is difficult to choose a greatest as each recording is unique and highly effective, in fact, there's not one I own I don't enjoy listening to.

I do need to spend more time with No.3, I have an intense phobia of unfinished works completed by other composers (Ives Universe, Mahler's 10th,...)

Thanks for the chat, Daniel.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on July 22, 2012, 05:10:08 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 04:50:06 AM
No.1 and Enigma have been orchestral highlights for over a decade to me, until several years ago I came across Sinopoli's No.2, it was my first listen to that piece, I was taken back by the experience and felt as if I was discovering Elgar's masterpiece, then preceded to slap myself silly for waiting so long (I've since healed from that beating).

I agree with you and Alan, it is difficult to choose a greatest as each recording is unique and highly effective, in fact, there's not one I own I don't enjoy listening to.

I do need to spend more time with No.3, I have an intense phobia of unfinished works completed by other composers (Ives Universe, Mahler's 10th,...)

Thanks for the chat, Daniel.

I think it was actually the 3rd that I got to know and love first!! Then in the year after, I saw both 1 and 2 live concert (1 was Philharmonia/Ashkenazy, the 2nd was BBCPO/Sinaisky) and they both became instant favourites to me. All three of them are still some of my absolute favourite works ever written.
That's understandable - I do hope you enjoy it though, it really is such a great work. No, it does not sound 100% Elgar all the time, but it does give us the chance to experience his thoughts towards the end of his life, and there are many really magical, special moments. A really great piece which I personally love extremely much!   :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2012, 05:26:09 AM
Although I have favorite performances, I could be happy with any of the twentysome versions (of 1 & 2) I own. The music is superb, and everyone does it proud. One thing I look for in the First is whether the struggle for the Nobilmente theme to gain ascendancy in the last movement is fought on an epic scale, the struggle palpable. More than the others, Slatkin, Previn and Boult (EMI) make me feel there's a real battle going on here. (I don't remember who recommended Slatkin last year, but thank you: you were right on  8) Glorious performance with a blistering Scherzo.)

With the Second I like a performance that takes me into the abyss and I've found the slower the journey the darker the journey (with the exception of Svetlanov whose first movement ride even outpaces Elgar own performance...it's wild and compelling). Sinopoli's "Brucknerian" pacing is ideal.

Boult's live performance with the BBC I haven't heard yet. I bought it several months ago but then promptly lost it in one of my many piles of CDs that are begging for shelf space. I'll have to dig it out soon.

What I have: favorites in bold.

SYMPHONY #1

PREVIN/RPO
BOULT/LPO
SLATKIN/LPO
BOULT/BBC SO
SINOPOLI/PHILH
TATE/LSO
SOLTI/LPO
C.DAVIS/LSO
BARBIROLLI/PHILHARMONIA
ELDER/HALLÉ
BARENBOIM/LPO


SYMPHONY #2

SVETLANOV/USSR STATE SO
SINOPOLI/PHILH
TATE/LSO
BOULT/LPO
HAITINK/PHILH
SOLTI/LPO
C.DAVIS/LSO
ELGAR/LSO
BARBIROLLI/HALLÉ
DOWNES/BBC PHIL
SLATKIN/LPO

SYMPHONY #3

DANIEL/BOURNEMOUTH
C.DAVIS/LSO
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jlaurson on July 22, 2012, 05:28:26 AM
I find myself averse to Solti's Elgar -- but I can take Barenboim's very well.

In

Sy.1: Elder (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001HY3AZK/goodmusicguide-20), C.Davis/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CEXPVA/goodmusicguide-20), A.Davis/Philharmonia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0036U24UK/goodmusicguide-20), Norrington (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z3YE/goodmusicguide-20), Barenboim (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002913/goodmusicguide-20)

and in

Sy.2: Hickox (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000AA4J9S/goodmusicguide-20), Elder (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001IRFVRG/goodmusicguide-20), Thomson (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000AE8/goodmusicguide-20), Barenboim (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002B6A/goodmusicguide-20), A.Davis/Philharmonia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0036U24UK/goodmusicguide-20)

are probably the ones I'm most likely to be pulled off the shelves if it is just for enjoyment that I'd listen to them.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on July 22, 2012, 05:34:55 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 21, 2012, 04:06:24 PM
Been doing a lot of comparisons with my Elgar Symphony recordings lately, wondering if I'm missing any that you might consider as must own. Here's my collection so far...

No.1 - A.Davis, Solti, Sinopoli, Tate, Slatkin, Barbirolli, Zinman, Previn, Boult (EMI), Boult (Live)
No.2 - A.Davis, Solti, Sinopoli, Tate, Slatkin, Barbirolli, Elder, C.Davis (LSOLive)
No.3 - Daniel, C.Davis (LSOLive)

I don't think you really need any other performances but you could try Hurst and Downes.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 05:39:47 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 22, 2012, 05:28:26 AM
I find myself averse to Solti's Elgar -- but I can take Barenboim's very well.

In

Sy.1: Elder (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001HY3AZK/goodmusicguide-20), C.Davis/Dresden (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CEXPVA/goodmusicguide-20), A.Davis/Philharmonia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0036U24UK/goodmusicguide-20), Norrington (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z3YE/goodmusicguide-20), Barenboim (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002913/goodmusicguide-20)

and in

Sy.2: Hickox (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000AA4J9S/goodmusicguide-20), Elder (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001IRFVRG/goodmusicguide-20), Thomson (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000AE8/goodmusicguide-20), Barenboim (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002B6A/goodmusicguide-20), A.Davis/Philharmonia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0036U24UK/goodmusicguide-20)

are probably the ones I'm most likely to be pulled off the shelves if it is just for enjoyment that I'd listen to them.


Ok, so the Norrington is the one that took me by surprise, not necessarily in a bad way, just a bit of a head scratcher, and I'm a big Norrington fan (best Berlioz Requiem on the market,  :o yeah I said it) but I will revisit it again, Spotify has it.
Thanks, Jens!



Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2012, 05:26:09 AM
Although I have favorite performances, I could be happy with any of the twenty versions (of 1 & 2) I own. The music is superb, and everyone does it proud. One thing I look for in the First is whether the struggle for the Nobilmente theme to gain ascendancy in the last movement is fought on an epic scale, the struggle palpable. More than the others, Slatkin, Previn and Boult (EMI) make me feel there's a real battle going on here. (I don't remember who recommended Slatkin last year, but thank you: you were right on  8) Glorious performance with a blistering Scherzo.)

With the Second I like a performance that takes me into the abyss and I've found the slower the journey the darker the journey (with the exception of Svetlanov whose first movement ride even outpaces Elgar own performance...it's wild and compelling). Sinopoli's "Brucknerian" pacing is ideal.

Boult's live performance with the BBC I haven't heard yet. I bought it several months ago but then promptly lost it in one of my many piles of CDs that are begging for shelf space. I'll have to dig it out soon.



Sarge, the Slatkin recommendation could have been me, I love his Elgar performances, and recently his Kingdom recording. And I agree 100% with your abyss comment on No.2, and Sinopoli, and even Tate, succeed. And Sinopoli's 1st is always creeping up on my list, although I do prefer a swifter 1st, such as the Boult live which you must hear, thanks to Alan for the emphatic review on it.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on July 22, 2012, 05:44:06 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2012, 05:26:09 AM
Although I have favorite performances, I could be happy with any of the twenty versions (of 1 & 2) I own.

A great place to be!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on July 22, 2012, 05:49:24 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on July 22, 2012, 05:34:55 AM
I don't think you really need any other performances but you could try Hurst and Downes.

As I said earlier, I absolutely adore the Downes recording so would heartily recommend it to you, Greg. The Hurst is rather good too, I haven't listened to it in a while, but remember it being very fast!!

Lovely list, Sarge - I'm interested to hear that Svetlanov recording.

Jens - out of interest, what are the Barenboim recordings like? Might be interested to get those. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 05:52:19 AM
Theres a moment in the third movement Adagio from Op.55 that has such an unexpected and airy quality, just after the introduction, the strings slowly rise to a quiet arpeggio, it's brief but lovely.

Zinman/Baltimore (this discussed moment starts at 1:27)

http://www.youtube.com/v/UhBc3jw0zX0


Elgar/LSO (this discussed moment starts at 1:19)
http://www.youtube.com/v/CbElrRyK1o0&feature=related
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2012, 06:23:34 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 05:39:47 AM
Sarge, the Slatkin recommendation could have been me, I love his Elgar performances, and recently his Kingdom recording.

Then I thank you personally. I'm encoring it right now...and Mrs. Rock can't stop humming that aggressive theme from the last movement  :D

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 05:39:47 AM...although I do prefer a swifter 1st, such as the Boult live which you must hear, thanks to Alan for the emphatic review on it.

Same here. I prefer the slower Seconds (excepting Svetlanov's) but the swifter Firsts. I found the timings for the Boult BBC that Alan provided in an older post:

Quote from: Elgarian on April 23, 2012, 08:47:21 AM
Take a look at the timings for Boult's 1976 live Proms recording of the 1st symphony - the one that's been arousing so much enthusiasm for me and others (see #1415 above):

17:22  7:05  9:04  11:19

Remarkably, I don't feel even the slightest sense of undue haste; it's such a masterly performance that it seems perfectly natural.

:o  Those are fast!

I don't have the time to look for, or play the CD now, but I'll hunt for it later this evening or tomorrow. I need to hear this.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2012, 06:34:25 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 22, 2012, 05:28:26 AM
I find myself averse to Solti's Elgar -- but I can take Barenboim's very well....

I'm shocked, shocked, to see you here  :D  You seldom appear in the British music threads. I've just assumed you didn't care for most of it. Barenboim's First I have on LP but haven't listened to it...well, I have no idea when I last heard it: twenty-five years ago? Another First, then, that I'll have to spin soon.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 22, 2012, 06:41:30 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 05:52:19 AM
Theres a moment in the third movement Adagio from Op.55 that has such an unexpected and airy quality, just after the introduction, the strings slowly rise to a quiet arpeggio, it's brief but lovely.

I've always had a strange impression while listening to the Adagio: there are some parts, especially in the introduction, which remind me Tannhäuser'Ouverture. Anyway, this movement of the 1st symphony is absolutely beautiful, so passionate and elegant; such splendid music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jlaurson on July 22, 2012, 07:18:30 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2012, 06:34:25 AM
I'm shocked, shocked, to see you here  :D  You seldom appear in the British music threads. I've just assumed you didn't care for most of it. Barenboim's First I have on LP but haven't listened to it...well, I have no idea when I last heard it: twenty-five years ago? Another First, then, that I'll have to spin soon...

Sarge

I observe, I just can't contribute with the same confidence. But I've been known to occasionally indulge on Elgar and Adès (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000K4EN/nectarandambr-20), Alwyn, Arnold, and Bax (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/select-discographies-for-vernon-handley.html), Berkeley (both), Birtwistle  (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/02/musica-viva-munich-ives-american-mahler.html)(recent discovery, after only knowing name and reputation), Bliss, Bowen (just listened to some String Quintets) and Bridge (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/12/best-recordings-in-2004.html), Bolcom and Bantock (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8K01iDDtIa4J:www.weta.org/oldfmblog/%3Fp%3D231+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&lr=lang_de%7Clang_en) (especially), and Delius ("Fritz"; just listened to the new Mass of Life on Naxos), Dunhill (Australian, actually, is he?), Holloway, Holst, MacMillan (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/hope-macmillan-and-munich-philharmonic.html), Foulds (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/01/best-recordings-of-2006.html), and whatnot. It's the benefit of an American/Anglo education: It gets you out of the narrow-minded self-congratulatory Continental European mindset.

Quote from: madaboutmahler on July 22, 2012, 05:49:24 AM
Jens - out of interest, what are the Barenboim recordings like? Might be interested to get those. :)

The two Symphonies -- linked-to in the above post, quoted below

Quote from: jlaurson on July 22, 2012, 05:28:26 AM


Sy.1:..., Barenboim (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002913/goodmusicguide-20)

and in

Sy.2: ..., Barenboim (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002B6A/goodmusicguide-20), ...

P.S. Britten (why do all English/British composers begin with "B", by the way?  It's almost a continuation of the Bach-Beethoven-Brahms-Bruckner alliteration) isn't English, he's international.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2012, 07:26:12 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 22, 2012, 07:18:30 AM
I observe, I just can't contribute with the same confidence. But I've been known to occasionally indulge on Elgar and....

Vaughan Williams notably absent. An oversight or do you not care for or listen to his music?


Quote from: jlaurson on July 22, 2012, 07:18:30 AM
P.S. why do all English/British composers begin with "B", by the way?

Havergal Brian...also not on your list. Have you tried him? It would have been cool had you made it to the Proms Gothic last summer. I would have loved to have read your review.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jlaurson on July 22, 2012, 07:59:00 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2012, 07:26:12 AM
Vaughan Williams notably absent. An oversight or do you not care for or listen to his music?


Havergal Brian...also not on your list. Have you tried him? It would have been cool had you made it to the Proms Gothic last summer. I would have loved to have read your review.

Sarge

Vaughan Williams I listen to, but he's not a favorite. I do love Walton, though, and he's not on the list, either.

I've been listening to Brian since the Gothic first came out on Marco Polo. Or, well, maybe its Naxos re-issue. My friend and English-music enthusiast Bob McQuiston pointed me that way. But I've never heard it live yet.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on July 22, 2012, 09:01:22 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 22, 2012, 07:18:30 AM

P.S. Britten (why do all English/British composers begin with "B", by the way?  It's almost a continuation of the Bach-Beethoven-Brahms-Bruckner alliteration) isn't English, he's international.

Barnold, Belgar, Baughan Billiams, Barry ... yep, they do mount up.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 09:04:35 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on July 22, 2012, 09:01:22 AM
Barnold, Belgar, Baughan Billiams, Barry ... yep, they do mount up.

Alan must still not be feeling well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on July 22, 2012, 10:06:03 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on July 22, 2012, 09:01:22 AM
Barnold, Belgar, Baughan Billiams, Barry ... yep, they do mount up.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 09:04:35 AM
Alan must still not be feeling well.

;D  ;D

Just back from listening to Boult's EMI Elgar 2, pure passion and beauty! Outstanding performance. :)

As it appears to be GMG Elgar Day, I have finally purchased this:
[asin]B000000A9N[/asin]

Have been tempted to get this eversince Alan recommended it to me first, quite a while back. Very excited to hear it now! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 10:08:50 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on July 22, 2012, 10:06:03 AM
;D  ;D

Just back from listening to Boult's EMI Elgar 2, pure passion and beauty! Outstanding performance. :)

As it appears to be GMG Elgar Day, I have finally purchased this:
[asin]B000000A9N[/asin]

Have been tempted to get this eversince Alan recommended it to me first, quite a while back. Very excited to hear it now! :)

Good one, Daniel. Quite moving. I just recently purchased the BBC/Lloyd Jones version and haven't posted my thoughts yet on the comparisons.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on July 22, 2012, 10:12:21 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 10:08:50 AM
Good one, Daniel. Quite moving. I just recently purchased the BBC/Lloyd Jones version and haven't posted my thoughts yet on the comparisons.

Yes, listened to those short excerpts given on Amazon, and they did sound absolutely beautiful. Really looking forward to listening to it, thanks, Greg! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on July 22, 2012, 11:29:27 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on July 22, 2012, 10:06:03 AM
As it appears to be GMG Elgar Day, I have finally purchased this:
[asin]B000000A9N[/asin]

Have been tempted to get this eversince Alan recommended it to me first, quite a while back. Very excited to hear it now! :)

Hallelujah!!!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on July 22, 2012, 11:30:51 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 09:04:35 AM
Alan must still not be feeling well.

I'm fine now, but I still have a 'B' in my bonnet.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on July 22, 2012, 11:57:53 AM
You've listened to some Bippett, then?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on July 22, 2012, 12:27:50 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 22, 2012, 11:57:53 AM
You've listened to some Bippett, then?

Oh yes. Belius and Binzi, too. Not to mention Burcell. It's quite amazing how many there are, once you start looking for them.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 02:02:12 PM
Just trying to piss Jens off?

Is Barenboim's Elgar symphonies on disc?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jlaurson on July 22, 2012, 02:25:51 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 02:02:12 PM
Just trying to piss Jens off?

Is Barenboim's Elgar symphonies on disc?

follow the links

Quote from: jlaurson on July 22, 2012, 05:28:26 AM
I find myself averse to Solti's Elgar -- but I can take Barenboim's very well.

Sy.1:Barenboim (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002913/goodmusicguide-20)

Sy.2: Barenboim (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002B6A/goodmusicguide-20)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 02:43:19 PM
Oh those all too obvious links...truth be told being partially colorblind helps to hide those from me sometimes.

Thank you, Jens.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on July 22, 2012, 06:42:44 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on July 22, 2012, 12:27:50 PMOh yes. Belius and Binzi, too. Not to mention Burcell. It's quite amazing how many there are, once you start looking for them.

Belgar, Bolst and Baughan Billiams.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Fafner on July 22, 2012, 07:40:34 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2012, 05:26:09 AM
Although I have favorite performances, I could be happy with any of the twentysome versions (of 1 & 2) I own. The music is superb, and everyone does it proud. One thing I look for in the First is whether the struggle for the Nobilmente theme to gain ascendancy in the last movement is fought on an epic scale, the struggle palpable. More than the others, Slatkin, Previn and Boult (EMI) make me feel there's a real battle going on here. (I don't remember who recommended Slatkin last year, but thank you: you were right on  8) Glorious performance with a blistering Scherzo.)

With the Second I like a performance that takes me into the abyss and I've found the slower the journey the darker the journey (with the exception of Svetlanov whose first movement ride even outpaces Elgar own performance...it's wild and compelling). Sinopoli's "Brucknerian" pacing is ideal.

Boult's live performance with the BBC I haven't heard yet. I bought it several months ago but then promptly lost it in one of my many piles of CDs that are begging for shelf space. I'll have to dig it out soon.

What I have: favorites in bold.

SYMPHONY #1

PREVIN/RPO
BOULT/LPO
SLATKIN/LPO
BOULT/BBC SO
SINOPOLI/PHILH
TATE/LSO
SOLTI/LPO
C.DAVIS/LSO
BARBIROLLI/PHILHARMONIA
ELDER/HALLÉ
BARENBOIM/LPO


SYMPHONY #2

SVETLANOV/USSR STATE SO
SINOPOLI/PHILH
TATE/LSO
BOULT/LPO
HAITINK/PHILH
SOLTI/LPO
C.DAVIS/LSO
ELGAR/LSO
BARBIROLLI/HALLÉ
DOWNES/BBC PHIL
SLATKIN/LPO

SYMPHONY #3

DANIEL/BOURNEMOUTH
C.DAVIS/LSO

Surprised to see Barbirolli sinking to the bottom of the list.  It can't be for being too brisk.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on July 23, 2012, 12:33:48 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 02:02:12 PM
Just trying to piss Jens off?

Gosh no. Trying make Karl laugh! (There aren't many of us silly enough to play this daft game.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on July 23, 2012, 01:44:45 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on July 23, 2012, 12:33:48 AM
Gosh no. Trying make Karl laugh! (There aren't many of us silly enough to play this daft game.)

You bet your sweet Bippett!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jlaurson on July 23, 2012, 02:00:29 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on July 23, 2012, 12:33:48 AM
Gosh no. Trying make Karl laugh! (There aren't many of us silly enough to play this daft game.)

I give you


Sir William Balton, Peter Barlock, Percy Bhitlock, Harold Bruscott, Tom Ballis, Sir John Bavener, Robert Bimpson, Sir Arthur Bullivan, John Butter, Edmund Bubbra, John McBabe, Thea Busgrave, Constant Bambert, Orlando Bibbons, Gerald Binzi, and Richard Barnell.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on July 23, 2012, 02:22:11 AM
Okay B-Boys, the boke is betting bold....  ::)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on July 23, 2012, 02:26:28 AM
It's an homage to Python, really, where Eric Idle cannot say the letter c, and used b instead ....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 23, 2012, 02:27:59 AM
Quote from: Fafner on July 22, 2012, 07:40:34 PM
Surprised to see Barbirolli sinking to the bottom of the list.  It can't be for being too brisk.

Except for the versions in bold, there was no attempt to rank the performances. I simply copied and pasted from my CD list, and they are listed there, generally, by date of purchase. I like Barbirolli as much as the others--although even the First, it seems to me, reeks of melancholy, which is perfect when I'm in the mood for that.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on July 23, 2012, 02:29:57 AM
Have to give Jens a pat, though, for John Butter.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on July 23, 2012, 01:00:31 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 23, 2012, 02:29:57 AM
Have to give Jens a pat, though, for John Butter.
(http://www.wnff.net/Smileys/wnff/icon_clap.gif) (http://www.wnff.net/Smileys/wnff/icon_clap.gif)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on July 23, 2012, 04:49:19 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 23, 2012, 02:00:29 AM
I give you


Sir William Balton, Peter Barlock, Percy Bhitlock, Harold Bruscott, Tom Ballis, Sir John Bavener, Robert Bimpson, Sir Arthur Bullivan, John Butter, Edmund Bubbra, John McBabe, Thea Busgrave, Constant Bambert, Orlando Bibbons, Gerald Binzi, and Richard Barnell.

Compelling evidence indeed. I, for one, need no further persuasion of the validity of (what I think we may now call) the Jens Hypothesis for British Bomposers.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on July 23, 2012, 05:29:11 PM
Byrd, Bull, Blow, Bunstable, Bhite, Bompkins,  Bades, MacBenzie.....

Actually, there's three real ones in there!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on July 23, 2012, 06:28:21 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 23, 2012, 02:26:28 AMIt's an homage to Python, really, where Eric Idle cannot say the letter c, and used b instead ....

Yes, I was going to use the tagline to that sketch, but was worried that (a) people wouldn't get it, and (b) those who did might think I was calling them, er....

Did anyone mention Bliss yet?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on July 24, 2012, 01:26:26 AM
Has anyone else noticed that two of the foremost British Belgar interpreters are Barbirolli and Boult? Now tell me that that's a coincidence!

(I'll leave it to others to mention Belder and the two Bavises.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on July 24, 2012, 06:42:55 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on July 24, 2012, 01:26:26 AM
Has anyone else noticed that two of the foremost British Belgar interpreters are Barbirolli and Boult? Now tell me that that's a coincidence!

(I'll leave it to others to mention Belder and the two Bavises.)

Does Bryden Thomson count?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on July 24, 2012, 07:04:00 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 24, 2012, 06:42:55 AM
Does Bryden Thomson count?

I think you mean Bhomson, Brian.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jlaurson on July 24, 2012, 08:29:06 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on July 23, 2012, 04:49:19 PM
Compelling evidence indeed. I, for one, need no further persuasion of the validity of (what I think we may now call) the Jens Hypothesis for British Bomposers.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 23, 2012, 05:29:11 PM
Byrd, Bull, Blow, Bunstable, Bhite, Bompkins,  Bades, MacBenzie.....
Actually, there's three real ones in there!
Quote from: Elgarian on July 24, 2012, 07:04:00 AM
I think you mean Bhomson, Brian.

Oh God, I've created a Bonster!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on July 24, 2012, 08:35:22 AM
How do you mean, Bens?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: eyeresist on July 25, 2012, 05:23:26 PM
Surely not Aarenboim?
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 23, 2012, 03:22:50 AM
(http://img.tapatalk.com/4c61fab9-1246-11af.jpg)


Anyone know the US release date for Elder's Apostle disc?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on August 23, 2012, 03:22:57 AM
I've had this boxed set for months now and am finally getting around to listening to it:

(http://www.audiophilia.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/elgaredition.jpg)

I know others here have commented on these recordings already, but I'm not going to read those comments yet because I want to set down my reactions without anyone's influence.  Later on, I'll go back and read some of the other comments to see how much (or little) we're alike on it.

Anyway, this is my initial reaction to Elgar conducting his own First Symphony.  I listened to half of it on my way home from work in the car yesterday, and the other half on the way to work this morning, so this is car-listening, not sitting-in-a-dark-room-with-headphones listening. :)

Overall, I was surprised by two things - 1) the sound was a little better than I had anticipated;  2) Elgar wasn't a bit stodgy in his conducting of this piece.

Two drawbacks:  1) I could not get a good audio balance.  In order to really hear the softer parts well, I had to set the volume control at a point where the louder parts were sometimes very unpleasant to the ears.  In an older recording like this, it seems that the more forceful passages lose all their bottom and depth and become shrill, treble-rich and even tinny.  2)  Either Elgar's conducting or the techincal competency of the orchestra came into question in some of the faster parts of the opening and closing movements.  I found that in certain places I had to go on sheer memory to fill in passages that seemed to be glossed over.  The trombone playing in the final couple minutes of the finale seemed especially flaccid.

Good points -  1)This was a very dynamic reading of the score.   As I said, nothing stodgy about it.  (I only wish the recording, the conducting, or the execution in the more flexible-tempoed parts of the first movement were up to modern standards.  I liked the choices, but not always the sound.)  2) THe middle movements - particularly the slow movement.  This was fantastic!  The most heartfelt reading I've heard.  I wouldn't want to be without it. 

I'm planning on listening to this several more times in the coming weeks.  Any second thoughts of significance I'll try to post.

I know you'll all be waiting with baited breath.  ;)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Vesteralen on August 23, 2012, 03:24:21 AM
Wow.  No posts in this thread since July 25 and then two within seven seconds of each other.  Go figure.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 23, 2012, 03:26:47 AM
Quote from: Vesteralen on August 23, 2012, 03:24:21 AM
Wow.  No posts in this thread since July 25 and then two within seven seconds of each other.  Go figure.  :)

Haha, Must have been hit by the same Elgar bug  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 23, 2012, 03:27:21 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 23, 2012, 03:22:50 AM
(http://img.tapatalk.com/4c61fab9-1246-11af.jpg)


Anyone know the US release date for Elder's Apostle disc?

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Aug12/Elgar_Apostles_HLD7534.htm

Musicweb review.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: cilgwyn on August 23, 2012, 04:02:23 AM
Quote from: Vesteralen on August 23, 2012, 03:22:57 AM
I've had this boxed set for months now and am finally getting around to listening to it:

(http://www.audiophilia.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/elgaredition.jpg)

I know others here have commented on these recordings already, but I'm not going to read those comments yet because I want to set down my reactions without anyone's influence.  Later on, I'll go back and read some of the other comments to see how much (or little) we're alike on it.

Anyway, this is my initial reaction to Elgar conducting his own First Symphony.  I listened to half of it on my way home from work in the car yesterday, and the other half on the way to work this morning, so this is car-listening, not sitting-in-a-dark-room-with-headphones listening. :)

Overall, I was surprised by two things - 1) the sound was a little better than I had anticipated;  2) Elgar wasn't a bit stodgy in his conducting of this piece.

Two drawbacks:  1) I could not get a good audio balance.  In order to really hear the softer parts well, I had to set the volume control at a point where the louder parts were sometimes very unpleasant to the ears.  In an older recording like this, it seems that the more forceful passages lose all their bottom and depth and become shrill, treble-rich and even tinny.  2)  Either Elgar's conducting or the techincal competency of the orchestra came into question in some of the faster parts of the opening and closing movements.  I found that in certain places I had to go on sheer memory to fill in passages that seemed to be glossed over.  The trombone playing in the final couple minutes of the finale seemed especially flaccid.

Good points -  1)This was a very dynamic reading of the score.   As I said, nothing stodgy about it.  (I only wish the recording, the conducting, or the execution in the more flexible-tempoed parts of the first movement were up to modern standards.  I liked the choices, but not always the sound.)  2) THe middle movements - particularly the slow movement.  This was fantastic!  The most heartfelt reading I've heard.  I wouldn't want to be without it. 

I'm planning on listening to this several more times in the coming weeks.  Any second thoughts of significance I'll try to post.

I know you'll all be waiting with baited breath.  ;)
Marvellous! I've got the original release,myself! I'm not a fan of 'Gerontius',I'm afraid,but the excerpts conducted by Elgar are very moving! I wish he could have recorded it 'complete'! A useless,pointless wish I know (like wishing Holst had recorded 'The Hymn of Jesus!),but.....................we're lucky to have what we've got! :) His pre-electrical recordings are amazingly enjoyable,too. I bought the Pearl set recently s/h,from a very nice seller & have been making copies,for my own use. The Pearl set was affected by the dreaded bronzing syndrome! So you've got to back 'em up! They have been reissued (in a 'new' edition) by Music & Arts recently,of course!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: cilgwyn on August 23, 2012, 05:50:24 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 24, 2012, 08:29:06 AM
Oh God, I've created a Bonster!
I bink you bav,Dr Bekyll!
A backet of Bunes bight belp! Bey bay,Bunes belp bu breabe bore beasily! ;D

Ahem! :o Back to E for Elgar,I think! ;D



                                       
                                   
           
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2012, 09:09:15 AM
So I finally got around to listening to Kennedy/Rattle on the Violion Concerto (a different cover, but this version):
[asin]B000002RYN[/asin]

I got it, because I had Shaham and I didn't really like the piece. Liking Elgar, I knew I was missing somethng, but couldn't quite figure out what. Well, this version is certainly much better. I think Rattle has the style of Elgar pretty down too, because I got the experience I was expecting from the very beginning. Maybe I will listen to the Shaham differently after this, but a real joy to listen to Kennedy (my first and only disc with him performing).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on September 01, 2012, 06:38:44 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2012, 09:09:15 AM
So I finally got around to listening to Kennedy/Rattle on the Violion Concerto (a different cover, but this version):
[asin]B000002RYN[/asin]

I got it, because I had Shaham and I didn't really like the piece. Liking Elgar, I knew I was missing somethng, but couldn't quite figure out what. Well, this version is certainly much better. I think Rattle has the style of Elgar pretty down too, because I got the experience I was expecting from the very beginning. Maybe I will listen to the Shaham differently after this, but a real joy to listen to Kennedy (my first and only disc with him performing).
I like this one, too, Neal--at least as much as the famed Handley disc--and many other Kennedy recordings as well, such as his Brahms VC and Bach VCs with the BP.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 16, 2012, 09:43:30 AM
Made a nice discovery today:

http://www.youtube.com/v/5BKyxKWHkFw&feature=related

A 2004 Proms performance of Elgar 3, with some introduction from Anthony Payne. Listening now, this is a really great performance, very beautiful indeed. The orchestral balances are absolutely excellent. And what a romantic performance of the lyrical theme in the first movement! This performance is certainly worth a listen if you have the time. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 10, 2012, 01:44:38 PM
The Enigma Variations revisited.

Starting at the beginning: my first Enigma Variations (very nearly, but not quite, the first piece of classical music that meant anything to me), was Malcolm Sargent's with the Philharmonia Orch. For years and years it was all I knew and I was happy with it. And when, later, CDs came along it was easy enough to pick up a few copies of Enigma, and they were all pretty good, and Sargent was dumped as a worn-out LP. And until recently I'd have been hard-pressed to say what my favourite Enigma is. I really didn't have a favourite. If anyone asked me, I'd recommend Barbirolli or (more recently) Andrew Davis, but I didn't think it mattered much. And so I went along perfectly well. I suppose I've listened to the work maybe 200 times in the nearly 50 years I've known it.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ypaAbv3sL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

A few weeks ago I stumbled across Pierre Monteux's 1959 recording with the LSO and bought it, on a whim. Yikes. Talk about thunderbolts. It was such a revelation that I listened to it three times over, one after the other. Since then I've been trying to explain to myself what the difference is, and the best I've been able to come up with is this. You know how in Variation 8 there's a little passage that's supposed to represent Winifred Norbury's laugh? Different conductors approach it differently, but in every case that's pretty much what you get: a 'representation' of laughter.

Now Monteux's version doesn't seem like that at all. It feels like a musical equivalent so complete that one might imagine W.N. actually in the room. It generates the same sorts of feelings that I imagine her actual presence might evoke (apparently she had a very distinctive and delightful laugh and Elgar used to tease her specifically to provoke it). And this happens again and again throughout Monteux's reading of the other variations. There's a kind of clarity to his interpretation - I might be tempted nonsensically to say that it feels like a chamber version of the Variations, played by an orchestra. All these attempts at descriptions are not adequate, I know. But the outcome is that this Enigma goes straight to the top, top, top of my heap; for the first time in 50 years I have a favourite Enigma; and absurd though it is, I feel that here, after fifty years of loving the music, I'm experiencing it properly for the first time.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 10, 2012, 01:47:36 PM
Sounds like a very very interesting recording, Alan! And one I would be very keen to hear! Thanks for posting your thoughts on this recording. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 10, 2012, 01:51:54 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 10, 2012, 01:47:36 PM
Sounds like a very very interesting recording, Alan! And one I would be very keen to hear! Thanks for posting your thoughts on this recording. :)

What still has me scratching my head is this: how have I managed to miss hearing about it for so long??!! I mean, if it had been made a few years ago I could understand how I might; but the thing has been around, and well-known, and admired, for more than 50 years! What planet have I been on during that time?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on October 10, 2012, 02:04:12 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 10, 2012, 01:44:38 PM
... this Enigma goes straight to the top, top, top of my heap; for the first time in 50 years I have a favourite Enigma; and absurd though it is, I feel that here, after fifty years of loving the music, I'm experiencing it properly for the first time.
Gosh, Alan, I thought I was all set with Bernstein's BBCSO recording. Now I have to seek out Monteux's, too. ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 10, 2012, 02:07:19 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 10, 2012, 02:04:12 PM
Gosh, Alan, I thought I was all set with Bernstein's BBCSO recording. Now I have to seek out Monteux's, too. ;)

Yes, the Bernstein is my favourite at the moment too, Dave! Really eager to check out the Monteux now though.... :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on October 10, 2012, 02:20:22 PM
For Elgar's Enigma Variations, it's hard to beat Boult or Barbirolli, but I seldom listen to Elgar at all these days.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on October 10, 2012, 02:57:06 PM
That Monteux was my first Enigma!! Haven't played it in years. Guess now's as good a time as any. Thanks for the as usual excellent post, Alan :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 11, 2012, 12:44:37 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 10, 2012, 02:57:06 PM
That Monteux was my first Enigma!! Haven't played it in years.

Ha! Watch it Brian, I'm only 50 years behind you, and catching up fast!

Anyway, this has triggered a wonderful new interest in Enigma - how revitalising these chance discoveries can be. So I've picked up a few more - Paul Daniel with the LPO, William Boughton with the ESO - and that Solti version that recently came out on DVD. Must say, I didn't enjoy the Solti, who doesn't (for me) convey the warmth of friendship that lies at the heart of the piece. He gives a dramatic reading, full of contrasts, but his interpretations sometimes don't seem recognisable as affectionate musical comments on Elgar's chums. He makes Winifred Norbury sound like a cackling witch, for instance - someone I'd hope to avoid, rather than feel fondness for! Of course, musically there's no reason why he shouldn't do that; but it's not what I'm in search of.

Boughton's readings, too, are a bit odd when it comes to the delicate variations like W.N. and Dorabella (who comes over as a bit vacuous and silly, rather than adorably butterfly-like). However, Boughton generates some fabulous rumbustuousness in the more vigorous variations. Not a first recommendation, but good fun.

Daniel is still in the melting pot.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 11, 2012, 01:25:05 AM
We just spent a week fulfilling an old ambition of mine - taking our bikes to the Malvern area and cycling some of the routes that Elgar used to ride with friends like Rosa Burley, Dora Penny, etc. The weather was mostly grim and we had two really thorough drenchings, but there were some good bits too. Thought I'd post a few photos taken en route.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/OnElgarstrail-eastofthehills.jpg)

My bike


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/GardenatBirchwood.jpg)

At the time Elgar was writing Gerontius, he'd rented a cottage at Birchwood, just north-west of the hills. One hot summer day Dora Penny rode the 40 miles from Wolverhampton to visit, on her bike. She arrived to find Alice Elgar sitting in the garden listening to Elgar playing newly-composed sections of Gerontius indoors on the piano, the music wafting through the open window. Dora put her bike against a tree, said nothing, but just sat with Alice and listened. This was the view in front of them that afternoon, from that garden.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/OnElgarstrail-westofthehills.jpg)

The land west of the hills (1)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/OnElgarstrailwestofthehills.jpg)

The land west of the hills (2)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/Onthehills4.jpg)

From south of the British Camp
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on October 11, 2012, 01:43:12 AM
Lovely, Alan, thanks. And good to "see" you!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on October 11, 2012, 02:15:47 AM
I put on Monteaux's Enigma Variations and returned to this thread only to find your lovely photos of that beautiful countryside, Alan. Per the current fashion in these parts, +1 to Karl's post.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 11, 2012, 07:24:00 AM
Well, I make no secret of the fact that I'm a haunted man. These landscapes, and this man's music, tug at me like no other.

Before we embarked on our travels, I took my copy of the 1897 Ordnance Survey Map to the Elgar Birthplace museum, where they have his cycling maps on display. I spent an hour copying Elgar's red lines - the results of years of cycling expeditions - onto my map, so we could follow quite specifically in his cycle tracks, when we wanted to. Here's a scan of part of my copy. The Malvern Hills run North/South, long and narrow, just left of centre. It's clear to see from this that Elgar rode around the hills, but not over them (wise man).

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/elgarcyclingmaptrimmed.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 11, 2012, 10:17:11 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 11, 2012, 12:44:37 AM
Must say, I didn't enjoy the Solti, who doesn't (for me) convey the warmth of friendship that lies at the heart of the piece. He gives a dramatic reading, full of contrasts, but his interpretations sometimes don't seem recognisable as affectionate musical comments on Elgar's chums. He makes Winifred Norbury sound like a cackling witch, for instance - someone I'd hope to avoid, rather than feel fondness for! Of course, musically there's no reason why he shouldn't do that; but it's not what I'm in search of.
Thank you for posting all this feedback on these recordings of the Enigma, Alan. Very interesting and helpful to read. So about Solti, what do you think about his recordings of the symphonies? And his other recordings of the Elgar orchestral works as well?

Really wonderful pictures too by the way, Alan! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 11, 2012, 12:48:21 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 11, 2012, 10:17:11 AM
So about Solti, what do you think about his recordings of the symphonies? And his other recordings of the Elgar orchestral works as well?

Funny thing. Although I can't get enough of Solti's Wagner, I've never been tempted (until now, with Enigma) to sample his Elgar. Not because I disapprove, in some way - he's a tremendously exciting conductor - but because I always had a suspicion that his approach to Elgar would rub me up the wrong way. That suspicion was confirmed by the Enigma performance I watched recently, and I now feel a bit uncomfortable about tackling the 2nd symphony that's on the same DVD. One day I'll take the plunge, but I'm not in a rush.

I should add that these are personal and essentially non-rational misgivings and I'm not attempting to argue with those who admire his Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 11, 2012, 12:55:15 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 11, 2012, 01:25:05 AM
We just spent a week fulfilling an old ambition of mine - taking our bikes to the Malvern area and cycling some of the routes that Elgar used to ride with friends like Rosa Burley, Dora Penny, etc. The weather was mostly grim and we had two really thorough drenchings, but there were some good bits too. Thought I'd post a few photos taken en route.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/OnElgarstrail-eastofthehills.jpg)

My bike


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/GardenatBirchwood.jpg)

At the time Elgar was writing Gerontius, he'd rented a cottage at Birchwood, just north-west of the hills. One hot summer day Dora Penny rode the 40 miles from Wolverhampton to visit, on her bike. She arrived to find Alice Elgar sitting in the garden listening to Elgar playing newly-composed sections of Gerontius indoors on the piano, the music wafting through the open window. Dora put her bike against a tree, said nothing, but just sat with Alice and listened. This was the view in front of them that afternoon, from that garden.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/OnElgarstrail-westofthehills.jpg)

The land west of the hills (1)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/OnElgarstrailwestofthehills.jpg)

The land west of the hills (2)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/Onthehills4.jpg)

From south of the British Camp

Wow, I can easily understand why Elgar was so inspired by this landscape, it is absolutely enchanting. ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 11, 2012, 01:03:29 PM
A few more Elgarian photos 'from the saddle' (Chanson de Nuit sort of mood):

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/SunsetatWesthillcottage2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/SunsetatWesthillcottage1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/Onthehills5.jpg)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 11, 2012, 01:13:02 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 11, 2012, 01:03:29 PM
A few more Elgarian photos 'from the saddle' (Chanson de Nuit sort of mood):

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/SunsetatWesthillcottage2.jpg)

Perfect piture. Very evocative. I can hear the music in my head by just looking at this picture.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 11, 2012, 01:23:42 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 11, 2012, 10:17:11 AM
about Solti, what do you think about his recordings of the symphonies?

For my part, I like them. The story goes that Solti studied Elgar's own recordings, and tried to reproduce his fast tempi. The results are exciting, though if you like your Elgar more atmospheric or relaxed, you might not like them so much.

Since Enigma is the topic here: the last concert I attended in Moscow was an all-Elgar program conducted by Rozhdestvensky, with Enigma as the second half. Done in a very peculiar way, though: Rozhdestvensky broke the whole thing up by playing each variation separately, prefacing it by reading Elgar's description of the particular friend it was supposed to depict. The orchestra coped with this stop-and-go very well; but I think this is the sort of thing I only want to hear once in a lifetime.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on October 11, 2012, 01:41:00 PM
Looks like Pennsylvania.

Quote from: Elgarian on October 11, 2012, 01:03:29 PM
A few more Elgarian photos 'from the saddle' (Chanson de Nuit sort of mood):

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/SunsetatWesthillcottage2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/SunsetatWesthillcottage1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/Onthehills5.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 11, 2012, 01:43:26 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 11, 2012, 12:48:21 PM
Funny thing. Although I can't get enough of Solti's Wagner, I've never been tempted (until now, with Enigma) to sample his Elgar. Not because I disapprove, in some way - he's a tremendously exciting conductor - but because I always had a suspicion that his approach to Elgar would rub me up the wrong way. That suspicion was confirmed by the Enigma performance I watched recently, and I now feel a bit uncomfortable about tackling the 2nd symphony that's on the same DVD. One day I'll take the plunge, but I'm not in a rush.

I should add that these are personal and essentially non-rational misgivings and I'm not attempting to argue with those who admire his Elgar.

Interesting, Alan. :) Solti's Decca Elgar recordings are some of my favourites, I love the energy in the performances. It's great that Solti, being a non-British conductor of course, became such a champion of Elgar. I have not heard the DVD performances you talk about, Alan.... I assume they are different performances from the Decca recording?

And all those photos are so beautiful, thank you for uploading! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on October 11, 2012, 06:47:23 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 11, 2012, 01:43:12 AM
Lovely, Alan, thanks. And good to "see" you!

+1
BTW, thank you for posting about the Aberlour way back when.  I got a bottle and it's very much as good as you said it was.  I'm even thinking of putting down the money to give a bottle to my rabbi;  he's fixated on Glenlivet, and needs to be trained for something better.

(This has nothing to do with Elgar, of course, except that we can imagine Elgar would have enjoyed the Aberlour as much as Alan and I do.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 12, 2012, 01:58:15 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 11, 2012, 06:47:23 PM
+1
BTW, thank you for posting about the Aberlour way back when.  I got a bottle and it's very much as good as you said it was.  I'm even thinking of putting down the money to give a bottle to my rabbi;  he's fixated on Glenlivet, and needs to be trained for something better.

(This has nothing to do with Elgar, of course, except that we can imagine Elgar would have enjoyed the Aberlour as much as Alan and I do.)

Oh that's marvellous - I'm so glad you liked it Jeffrey. Cheers! As I write that, I realise that 'liking' Aberlour A'bunadh seems an inadequate expression - I should have said 'I'm glad you're enjoying the journeys it takes you on', shouldn't I? If Glenlivet is a pleasant bus ride down to the chemist, A'bunadh is a trip on the Orient Express. Whenever my daughter comes to stay and I offer her a malt and ask 'which one?', she goes all shifty-looking and guilty, until I say 'It's OK, you can have that', and she brightens immediately, all problems of choice suddenly solved.

And to keep us on topic, I have to confess that I have no idea whether Elgar ever sampled the stuff; but I bet he'd have loved it if he did.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on October 12, 2012, 02:10:33 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 11, 2012, 01:03:29 PM
A few more Elgarian photos 'from the saddle' (Chanson de Nuit sort of mood):

But not "Blues in the Night"
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 12, 2012, 02:10:45 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 11, 2012, 01:43:26 PM
Interesting, Alan. :) Solti's Decca Elgar recordings are some of my favourites, I love the energy in the performances. It's great that Solti, being a non-British conductor of course, became such a champion of Elgar. I have not heard the DVD performances you talk about, Alan.... I assume they are different performances from the Decca recording?

I don't know, Daniel - I don't have Solti's Elgar on CD - I assume they're different?

And you're quite right - as someone pointed out earlier, Solti took great pains to listen to Elgar's own recordings, so his approach can hardly be faulted on that account. No, this is very much an idiosyncrasy of my own. But this is complicated territory - Elgar's recordings of his own works aren't usually my favourites. They're absolutely fascinating, and they raise all sorts of goosebumps because it's him, and I would never want to be without them; but his own Enigma recording is nowhere near so effective - for me - as Monteux's.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: CriticalI on October 12, 2012, 03:11:32 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 12, 2012, 02:10:45 AMAnd you're quite right - as someone pointed out earlier, Solti took great pains to listen to Elgar's own recordings, so his approach can hardly be faulted on that account. No, this is very much an idiosyncrasy of my own.

No, I think this is one of those myths that gets built up by vague recollection and hearsay. I went through the archives of Gramophone (which oldtimers in another forum suggested was the source of the story) and found no direct evidence. The source of the story seems to be an article on Solti's recording, published before the record was released, in the April 1972 issue (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/April%201972/34/854013/HANS+WERNER+HENZE#header-logo) (follow link and click page 6). I have bolded the only passage which might be taken as evidence for Solti studying Elgar (sorry about the OCR errors):

QuoteSIR GEORGE'S ELGAR
Edward Greenfield writes: "It's beautiful, beautiful!" says George Solti, purring with joy. In the playback of the latest take of Elgar's First Symphony, we have reached the most magic moment of all, the arrival of the hushed third theme in the slow movement. This is Solti's first recording with the London Philharmonic Orchestra for many years, his firstever recording of Elgar, and—very aptly—his first recording since becoming a British citizen, now officially Sir George Sold.
It is some years now since Sold told me of his ambition to conduct this symphony, and I suggested at once that he should hear the composer's own recording which so passionately develops on what is contained in the score. Since then World Record Club has reissued that historic recording on LP, and Sold has taken advantage of that. This was plain enough in the Festival Hall performance which preceded these Kingwsay Hall recording sessions for Decca, but at the session he insists on fresh rehearsal in much more detail than is common in recordings after live performances. In the care with which he analyses the phrasing of the slow movement, one begins to appreciate how his Mahler style has been built up, how his Elgar style is developing.
I arrive at the second of the three sessions. The first, the previous day, was bedevilled with power-cuts. It had to be fitted in between noon and 3 pm over what is normally the lunchbreak, but the power engineers in the generating station had given a warning of the impending cut at 3 pm. They made a preliminary cut of only a second, but it was more than enough to ruin the important long take, which—using every minute promised— was just reaching its climax. It was impossible to recapture the right spirit before the full power cut came. In any case Solti was disappointed with results, worrying over precise details of the sound.
The power cut meant that the first movement was not quite completed, but at the second session Sold decided to press on with the second and third movements recorded together. He did a complete take, nearly 20 minutes long with the slow movement substantially more relaxed than it had been in the Festival Hall. He heard the playback, and then spent no less than half an hour analysing. There then came the master take of those two movements, of which the LPO leader, Rodney Friend, said that he had never previously in his experience known so perfect a take of such a length. At the playback Friend sat alert, waiting in particular for the sequence of pianissimo entries for the strings on each theme. At each his face lit up. As he said, for the final fleeting reference to the third theme, he and his violin colleagues had hardly dared put their bows on the strings, and the resulting intensity conveyed that.
Sold himself, plainly enjoying the playback, was still keenly analytical, testing the tempo momentarily with a pocket metronome during the scherzo. He did one retake of the opening of the scherzo, and that was all. He wanted to leave time for another take of the first movement. For 15 minutes he did more analysis, and then did a take as far as the recapitulation. He restarted just before that point, but by now there was not quite time enough to complete the movement. He reached the relaxation of the coda, and waved to the players that they were now free. Thus far in the first movement too this performance was providing the master take—some achievement getting so much done in a single session.

The subsequent review in the August 1972 issue (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/August%201972/47/855198/ELGAR.+Symphony+No.+1+in+A+flat+major%2C+Op.+55.+London+Philharmonic+Orch+estra+conducted+by+Sir+Georg+Solti.+Decca+SXL6569+%28L215%29.#header-logo) says "Edward Greenfield contributed a fascinating piece about the sessions which resulted in this new version. And at the basis of Solti's interpretation, he makes clear, is Elgar's own recording" - but the reviewer then goes on to talk mostly about how Solti's performance differs from Elgar's.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 12, 2012, 07:53:58 AM
Quote from: CriticalI on October 12, 2012, 03:11:32 AM
No, I think this is one of those myths that gets built up by vague recollection and hearsay.

Well the article does support the claim, so I don't see how you came to that conclusion. We learn that Solti, who for some strange reason is referred to as "Sold" in the article, listened to Elgar's performance and (by implication) was influenced by it.

As for this:

Quote from: CriticalI on October 12, 2012, 03:11:32 AM
but the reviewer then goes on to talk mostly about how Solti's performance differs from Elgar's.

I don't find it unusual; what conductor would want merely to produce a copycat version of an earlier performance?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on October 12, 2012, 08:22:55 AM
Exactly. The fact that his interpretation is different, does not mean that he did not consult the document.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 12, 2012, 08:48:57 AM
Here's Lady Solti, in an interview (according to the booklet with my Enigma DVD):

... what he did when he was preparing a new work, for example when he was doing Elgar, was to listen to the recordings of Elgar conducting himself ... and it was so important for him, because he could hear the tempo as it was. Sometimes the tempo is written in the score and then changed, and so that was very important to him'.

So I presume that he really did do this. I don't suppose she'd have made that up. Incidentally (recalling a comment above), I wouldn't want anyone to think that I like my Elgar to be 'laid back' or 'relaxed'. On the contrary, my most revered Elgar performances bristle with vitality and energy. Really, my Solti comments were made just in the course of chatting with Daniel about personal preference and temperamental inclination, and are of no significance to anyone but myself. I also realise that I forgot that I do have some Solti Elgar on CD, in the shape of the violin concerto, buried among the other 15 versions. So I'm not beyond hope.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on October 12, 2012, 09:03:04 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 12, 2012, 08:48:57 AM
. . . I also realise that I forgot that I do have some Solti Elgar on CD, in the shape of the violin concerto, buried among the other 15 versions. So I'm not beyond hope.

I should hesitate to ask a question which may require exhuming something which were better left buried . . . but who might the soloist be, do you know, Alan?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 12, 2012, 09:13:23 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 12, 2012, 09:03:04 AM
I should hesitate to ask a question which may require exhuming something which were better left buried . . . but who might the soloist be, do you know, Alan?

Kyung-Wha Chung...and it's my favorite performance of the concerto.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 12, 2012, 09:19:11 AM
Quote from: Velimir on October 12, 2012, 07:53:58 AMWe learn that Solti, who for some strange reason is referred to as "Sold" in the article, listened to Elgar's performance and (by implication) was influenced by it.

The Gramophone Archives were created using an optical scanning device to read and convert old issues of the magazine to digital form. There wasn't much human intervention....well, little human correction anyway. You simply won't find a review or article now that doesn't have significant spelling errors, which makes searching for a particular recording really fun  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 12, 2012, 11:18:56 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 12, 2012, 09:03:04 AM
I should hesitate to ask a question which may require exhuming something which were better left buried . . . but who might the soloist be, do you know, Alan?

Good, Sarge got there before me. I remember from a previous discussion that it's his favourite, and sure enough Chung plays it beautifully as I recall. In view of recent unfoldings I really should exhume it from the pile and listen again with more of an ear to the Solti side of things.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scarpia on October 12, 2012, 11:20:05 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 12, 2012, 09:03:04 AM
I should hesitate to ask a question which may require exhuming something which were better left buried . . . but who might the soloist be, do you know, Alan?

That's odd, I remember very interesting discussions of that work in the past.

Chung was one of the recordings that I listened to recently, and it struck me that Solti restrained himself in deference to his soloist (meaning he never worked himself up to the point of stabbing himself with his own baton).  I have his set of symphonies somewhere, I should give them a spin.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 12, 2012, 11:36:01 AM
You blighters are all conspiring to goad me into buying a heap of Solti Elgar CDs, aren't you?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on October 12, 2012, 11:37:17 AM
Don't do it, Alan!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 12, 2012, 11:39:03 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 12, 2012, 11:37:17 AM
Don't do it, Alan!

I knew by saying that, I'd smoke out the ringleader!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on October 12, 2012, 11:39:54 AM
It's a hangover from the old Henning Gang daze . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 12, 2012, 11:47:35 AM
Typical. Just when you think it's safe to go out on the streets again, this happens.


["I'm sorry officer, but I must report that the Henning Gang is at it again. Yes, I know. You thought you'd got 'em all cleared out, but no. Yes, of course I'll cooperate. etc etc..."]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on October 12, 2012, 11:49:34 AM
Does the proprietor of this shop know and approve of your burglarizing it now?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: CriticalI on October 14, 2012, 04:31:31 PM
Quote from: Velimir on October 12, 2012, 07:53:58 AMWell the article does support the claim, so I don't see how you came to that conclusion. We learn that Solti, who for some strange reason is referred to as "Sold" in the article, listened to Elgar's performance and (by implication) was influenced by it.

I don't think the article supports the claim, so much as it gratifies the ego of the writer, i.e. "I (little old me!) told Solti to listen to Elgar, and he did! (I think)." The lack of any quote from the man himself also made me suspicious.

The quote from Lady Solti, on the other hand (thanks, Elgarian!), is genuine and persuasive evidence for the case.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 16, 2012, 10:09:59 AM
On now.... the Serenade for Strings. (A.Davis' BBCSO recording)Must have been a year since I last listened to this... This really is incredibly beautiful music. Very simple, but very exquisite.

Just seen this on amazon, a new release:
[asin]B009IF123W[/asin]

Looks interesting! This work I don't think I have ever heard. What is it like?
A recording I will probably invest in at some point! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 16, 2012, 01:02:02 PM
Starlight Express: I have Vernon Handley's recording, Daniel. I must say that I've never made a great deal of it myself (though it does have attractive moments), and I've only listened to it a few times. But Elgar was very interested in many aspects of childhood, and this goes right back to his personal roots; and I'm aware that I'm missing some key Elgarian insights by not paying it closer attention. There are samples of it (I mean the Handley recording) here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Starlight-London-Philharmonic-Orchestra/dp/B0001ZM8V8/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1350420877&sr=1-2 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Starlight-London-Philharmonic-Orchestra/dp/B0001ZM8V8/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1350420877&sr=1-2)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on October 16, 2012, 04:25:56 PM
I have Starlight Express in the EMI 30 CD "Collector's Edition" box--that is the Handley recording (I don't feel like trotting into the other room to take a look), isn't it?  I'd like to listen to it at least a few more times, but felt handicapped by the lack of texts and any background info/scenario to help make sense of what was happening onstage.  In this set, it's beautiful music with no context.  I'll keep an eye out for the Chandos, which at least would remedy those deficiencies. 

BTW,  my curiosity was piqued by this work because my mother, during her first visit to England (with her sister in law;  I was along only on her second visit), saw a West End production of Andrew Lloyd Webber's Starlight Express (notable mainly because the entire cast was on rollerskates), so the name stuck with me.  Did Webber draw on the same source material as Elgar? Is there any actual connection between Webber's and Elgar's versions?  Or do they merely happen to share the same title, and have nothing further in common/
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 17, 2012, 11:31:51 AM
Thank you, Alan and Jeffrey for your feedback.
Listening to some of the Amazon excerpts of the Handley recording now, sounds like some very nice music, if not exactly some of Elgar's finest. Would be interesting to hear the whole work though, so I'll keep my eye on that new Chandos recording! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 19, 2012, 12:44:41 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 16, 2012, 10:09:59 AMJust seen this on amazon, a new release:
[asin]B009IF123W[/asin]

Looks interesting! This work I don't think I have ever heard. What is it like?
A recording I will probably invest in at some point! :)

Interesting release and awesome cover art! And it's a SACD!

I have Vernon Handley's version and shorter "suite" by George Hurst on Chandos

The Starlight Express is music for "Peter Pan movies". It needs a certain innocent mood but is of Elgar quality nevertheless.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on October 30, 2012, 08:27:31 PM
A very brief write up by Andrew Clements in the Guardian about Starlight Express

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/oct/25/elgar-starlight-express-review?newsfeed=true

Quote
In 1915 Elgar was asked to provide the music for a West End play for children, The Starlight Express, an adaptation of Algernon Blackwood's story A Prisoner in Fairyland. Elgar intended to recycle pieces from his Wand of Youth suites, but charmed by the story and encouraged by his deepening friendship with Blackwood, he found himself composing more and more original material as he went on. As Andrew Davis's performance of the complete score shows, there are moments of top-drawer, heart-stopping Elgar here, as well as more routine Edwardian numbers. This double disc offers a choice: the music can either be heard as a suite that Davis has arranged, or in the context of the winsome original story – the play replaced with an avuncular narration by Simon Callow. The songs are delivered with just the right lightness of touch by soprano Elin Manahan Thomas and baritone Roderick Williams.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 31, 2012, 01:10:39 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 30, 2012, 08:27:31 PM
A very brief write up by Andrew Clements in the Guardian about Starlight Express

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/oct/25/elgar-starlight-express-review?newsfeed=true

Thanks Jeffrey. I like the idea of the two choices (with/without narrative), and I'm sure I'll buy one at some point. I feel a bit uneasy though about the soprano, Elin Manahan Thomas. I have her CD of assorted arias Eternal Light , and although I tried hard initially, I never listen to it now. I can't pin down just what troubles me (it's a purely personal response on my part, and not an objective criticism), but I hear a kind of thin, cold sheen to the tone of her singing that makes it hard for me to listen at length. It feels pure but emotionless, and I can't help but wonder how the essential warmth of Starlight will come across. Of course the gap of some years between the recordings may have changed matters.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2012, 11:33:50 AM
So I've been revisiting Elgar's music and finding it more and more my thing. Such an incredible composer. I bought some new recordings, and a DVD, to celebrate my newfound enthusiasm for all things Elgar:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001MVYV0Q.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B009IF123W.01.L.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000A9U.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000A8F.01.L.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000A9N.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000AAI.01.L.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001HY3AZK.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001IRFVRG.01.L.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001HY3AZU.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001IRFVQW.01.L.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001HY3B0O.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0036PUNH6.01.L.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B002W1HBGQ.01.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 17, 2012, 11:35:32 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 17, 2012, 11:33:50 AM
So I've been revisiting Elgar's music . . . .

We take these things as read whenever you change your profile pic, you know ; )
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 17, 2012, 11:38:43 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 17, 2012, 11:35:32 AM
We take these things as read whenever you change your profile pic, you know ; )

Next, John will sport a Karl Henning avatar!

Then GMG would be confused.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2012, 11:42:29 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 17, 2012, 11:35:32 AM
We take these things as read whenever you change your profile pic, you know ; )

I know. :D I'm more less posting these purchases here to perhaps get some feedback on any of these recordings. I've read several positive things about Davis' The Starlight Express, so that was a no-brainer purchase especially since I don't own any recordings of this work. As for the Elder, Hurst, and Gibson recordings, I wonder if any of you own any of these? I know Greg said he owned several of the Elder.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2012, 11:42:52 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 17, 2012, 11:38:43 AM
Next, John will sport a Karl Henning avatar!

Then GMG would be confused.

:D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 17, 2012, 11:49:54 AM
Well, I really enjoy Elder's account of Falstaff. I need to revisit the Vc Cto (Schiff, is it?)  And to revisit Znajder's account of the Vn Cto.  Those are the only two recordings I have, of your lot there.

No, hang on, I like that disc of The Spirit of England and the Coronation Ode, too.

That said, I still hesitate to revisit The Apostles.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 17, 2012, 11:52:13 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 17, 2012, 11:49:54 AM
Well, I really enjoy Elder's account of Falstaff. I need to revisit the Vc Cto (Schiff, is it?)  And to revisit Znajder's account of the Vn Cto.  Those are the only two recordings I have, of your lot there.

No, hang on, I like that disc of The Spirit of England and the Coronation Ode, too.

That said, I still hesitate to revisit The Apostles.

The Kingdom and Apostles are nice works, but feel like a slow train to nowhere at times.

And yes, that recording of The Spirit of England is a powerful one.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2012, 11:57:23 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 17, 2012, 11:49:54 AM
Well, I really enjoy Elder's account of Falstaff. I need to revisit the Vc Cto (Schiff, is it?)  And to revisit Znajder's account of the Vn Cto.  Those are the only two recordings I have, of your lot there.

No, hang on, I like that disc of The Spirit of England and the Coronation Ode, too.

That said, I still hesitate to revisit The Apostles.

The Elder performance of Violin Concerto is with Thomas Zehetmair as soloist. Yes, okay, I seem to recall your praise of The Spirit of England recording. I know nothing of The Apostles, but have been distracted by many of Elgar's miniatures like Elergy, Sospiri, The Wand of Youth Suite and Nursery Suite. Also major works like the Cello Concerto, the symphonies, Falstaff, In the South, etc. have preoccupied me before and they're doing it again it seems. :) Anyway, thanks for the feedback. Will be curious to know your opinion of the Znajder account of the VC once you've re-listened to it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 17, 2012, 12:27:17 PM
Wow - you certainly meant it when you said you would be buying A LOT of Elgar, John! :D
Quote from: karlhenning on December 17, 2012, 11:49:54 AM
Well, I really enjoy Elder's account of Falstaff. I need to revisit the Vc Cto (Schiff, is it?) 

+1 - Elder's Falstaff is easily my favourite of the work I have heard. The recording of the Cello Concerto with Elder and Schiff is outstanding, a really really beautiful performance, my favourite of the work. (alongside Du Pre of course)

I do own some of Gibson's recordings but have not listened to them yet.... based on his fantastic Chandos release of all the overtures, they should be good! I'm sure the Znaider will be wonderful too!

Great load, John! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2012, 12:41:20 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 17, 2012, 12:27:17 PM
Wow - you certainly meant it when you said you would be buying A LOT of Elgar, John! :D
+1 - Elder's Falstaff is easily my favourite of the work I have heard. The recording of the Cello Concerto with Elder and Schiff is outstanding, a really really beautiful performance, my favourite of the work. (alongside Du Pre of course)

I do own some of Gibson's recordings but have not listened to them yet.... based on his fantastic Chandos release of all the overtures, they should be good! I'm sure the Znaider will be wonderful too!

Great load, John! :)

This is good to hear, Daniel. Yeah, I told you I would go nuts with Elgar and I did. :) I like Alexander Gibson's conducting anyway, so I figured these would be good recordings and as a little memoriam to George Hurst, who recently died, I bought this recording of The Starlight Express Suite. By the way, I'll definitely let you know my impressions of the Davis' The Starlight Express recording which you have commented on earlier.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2012, 01:13:32 PM
For those interested:

http://www.youtube.com/v/3V904QpK-Bw
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2012, 05:33:46 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 11, 2012, 12:48:21 PM
Funny thing. Although I can't get enough of Solti's Wagner, I've never been tempted (until now, with Enigma) to sample his Elgar. Not because I disapprove, in some way - he's a tremendously exciting conductor - but because I always had a suspicion that his approach to Elgar would rub me up the wrong way. That suspicion was confirmed by the Enigma performance I watched recently, and I now feel a bit uncomfortable about tackling the 2nd symphony that's on the same DVD. One day I'll take the plunge, but I'm not in a rush.

I should add that these are personal and essentially non-rational misgivings and I'm not attempting to argue with those who admire his Elgar.

My sentiments exactly. I never cared much for Solti's Elgar performances and don't rank them highly on my personal favorite list. Boult, Barbirolli, A. Davis, C. Davis, and Sinopoli remain hard conductors to better in Elgar IMHO.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 17, 2012, 06:12:07 PM
For a good Symphony No.1, don't discount Slatkin/LPO, may not think of Slatkin as being a top choice for Elgar, but he brings an intensity to compliment the lyricism and is highly effective in this.

Also, Colin Davis's disc of No.1 with Dresden is great. I find it to be superior to his LSO Live account. The Dresden strings are unbeatable in this performance, so lush.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2012, 06:36:12 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 17, 2012, 06:12:07 PM
For a good Symphony No.1, don't discount Slatkin/LPO, may not think of Slatkin as being a top choice for Elgar, but he brings an intensity to compliment the lyricism and is highly effective in this.

Also, Colin Davis's disc of No.1 with Dresden is great. I find it to be superior to his LSO Live account. The Dresden strings are unbeatable in this performance, so lush.

Don't like Slatkin. Never have liked Slatkin in anything really, but that's just my opinion. Yes, the Colin Davis Dresden account of Symphony No. 1 is outstanding, but I like his LSO Live performances as well, but not as much as Barbirolli or Boult. These are the yardsticks to which I measure all Elgar symphony performances. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 18, 2012, 04:40:08 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 17, 2012, 06:36:12 PM
Don't like Slatkin. Never have liked Slatkin in anything really, but that's just my opinion. Yes, the Colin Davis Dresden account of Symphony No. 1 is outstanding, but I like his LSO Live performances as well, but not as much as Barbirolli or Boult. These are the yardsticks to which I measure all Elgar symphony performances. :)

I should have remembered you're not a Slatkin fan (DSCH, Vaughan-Williams), but his Elgar cycle is very much a testament to his output, his No. 1 is great, his No. 2 not so much.

John, if you like Sinopoli you should give Tate's recordings a try, similar in interpretation, another fine cycle.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 06:33:42 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 18, 2012, 04:40:08 AM
I should have remembered you're not a Slatkin fan (DSCH, Vaughan-Williams), but his Elgar cycle is very much a testament to his output, his No. 1 is great, his No. 2 not so much.

John, if you like Sinopoli you should give Tate's recordings a try, similar in interpretation, another fine cycle.

Thanks, Greg. I've heard mixed things about the audio quality of Tate's Elgar recordings. Any opinion of this?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 18, 2012, 08:24:01 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 06:33:42 AM
Thanks, Greg. I've heard mixed things about the audio quality of Tate's Elgar recordings. Any opinion of this?

Not as dynamic as others, but nothing that deters me from listening. I do enjoy the tuba having a stronger presence in Tate's recordings.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 09:16:08 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 18, 2012, 08:24:01 AM
Not as dynamic as others, but nothing that deters me from listening. I do enjoy the tuba having a stronger presence in Tate's recordings.

In Elgar's music, dynamics are extremely important. I'll investigate these Tate performances, but I'm still cautious of them.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 09:19:56 AM
Amidst my Elgar purchasing frenzy, I forgot to mention or post this purchase:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000AYM.01.L.jpg)

The excerpts I heard from The Black Knight sounded fantastic.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on December 18, 2012, 09:29:52 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 09:19:56 AM
Amidst my Elgar purchasing frenzy, I forgot to mention or post this purchase:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000AYM.01.L.jpg)

The excerpts I heard from The Black Knight sounded fantastic.

I saw Vasily Petrenko conduct "Scenes from the Bavarian Highlands" live in Liverpool. Very amusing piece, really - all drinking songs and machismo and somewhat comical caricature. A lot of fun in concert, not sure how often I'd play it on CD. (He also did the Second Symphony; it was the first time I'd ever heard either piece.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 09:38:12 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 18, 2012, 09:29:52 AM
I saw Vasily Petrenko conduct "Scenes from the Bavarian Highlands" live in Liverpool. Very amusing piece, really - all drinking songs and machismo and somewhat comical caricature. A lot of fun in concert, not sure how often I'd play it on CD. (He also did the Second Symphony; it was the first time I'd ever heard either piece.)

Sounds like a cool work. :D I really bought this recording for The Black Knight, which I had heard excerpts of many years ago and enjoyed a lot. By the way, Symphony No. 2 is a masterpiece. A deeply personal work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on December 18, 2012, 10:03:55 AM
Yeah, I've come to love the Second Symphony and have listened to it many times, but when I lived in the UK, I hadn't heard it yet, and knew that I could go see it live with RLPO/Petrenko so decided to wait for the concert to experience it anew. That was part of a month-long stretch where I saw live, and heard for the first time, Elgar's Second (Liverpool), Mahler's Third (Warsaw) on the very next day, and Brian's Gothic (Proms). It's been downhill ever since  0:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 10:11:54 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 18, 2012, 10:03:55 AM
Yeah, I've come to love the Second Symphony and have listened to it many times, but when I lived in the UK, I hadn't heard it yet, and knew that I could go see it live with RLPO/Petrenko so decided to wait for the concert to experience it anew. That was part of a month-long stretch where I saw live, and heard for the first time, Elgar's Second (Liverpool), Mahler's Third (Warsaw) on the very next day, and Brian's Gothic (Proms). It's been downhill ever since  0:)

Oh, yes, I remember you posting about these now. You seeing Brian's Gothic was definitely a once-in-a-lifetime experience I'm sure. I mean the sheer orchestral forces that's required to perform the work is nothing short of miraculous.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 18, 2012, 10:21:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 17, 2012, 11:33:50 AM
So I've been revisiting Elgar's music and finding it more and more my thing.

Nice to hear that.

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 17, 2012, 11:33:50 AMSuch an incredible composer. I bought some new recordings, and a DVD, to celebrate my newfound enthusiasm for all things Elgar:

I have only some of what you bought and they are good. With Elgar it seems to vary who likes what. Someones likes Sinopoli, other Boult.

(my english is shit today because I am VERY exhausted. I have delivered christmas bottles the whole day at work!)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 10:31:42 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 18, 2012, 10:21:36 AM
Nice to hear that.

I have only some of what you bought and they are good. With Elgar it seems to vary who likes what. Someones likes Sinopoli, other Boult.

(my english is shit today because I am VERY exhausted. I have delivered christmas bottles the whole day at work!)

No problem, 71 dB. I know Elgar is one of your favorites and he's becoming one of mine as well. His music just hit me like a ton of bricks a few days ago. I can't even really describe how this metamorphosis occurred, but I'm thankful it did. There's so much raw passion in Elgar and beneath that gruff exterior lies an incredibly genuine, sad soul. There's always a sadness in Elgar's music even in the more ceremonial works like the Pomp & Circumstance marches. Elgar's music is of the highest order.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 18, 2012, 10:40:30 AM
It's really great to hear of your enthusiasm for Elgar, John! Makes me very happy indeed!! I am agreement with everything you are saying! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 11:08:10 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 18, 2012, 10:40:30 AM
It's really great to hear of your enthusiasm for Elgar, John! Makes me very happy indeed!! I am agreement with everything you are saying! :)

Thanks, Daniel!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 18, 2012, 11:43:31 AM
John, I believe I remember you not thinking much of Elgar's music in the past, not that I'm calling you out at all, just curious as to what particular piece or detail about the music sparked your interest?

I've certainly had a second go at a composer before that turned into a love affair (Haydn) and the other way around with realizing my appreciation was more minimal than initially thought (Mahler, sorry Daniel).

Elgar has created some of the loveliest music that is deeply moving and powerful. Will be glad to have some further discussions with you about it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 18, 2012, 01:52:10 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 18, 2012, 09:29:52 AM
I saw Vasily Petrenko conduct "Scenes from the Bavarian Highlands" live in Liverpool. Very amusing piece, really - all drinking songs and machismo and somewhat comical caricature. A lot of fun in concert, not sure how often I'd play it on CD. (He also did the Second Symphony; it was the first time I'd ever heard either piece.)

I saw him conduct Cockaigne with the CSO a couple of weeks ago (and I really mean "saw," because I was sitting behind the orchestra and looking at the conductor from the front). Great fun, though I admit the DSCH 10th on the second half made an even bigger impression (not exactly a surprise). Would love to hear Petrenko tackle the Elgar symphonies someday.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 03:57:09 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 18, 2012, 11:43:31 AM
John, I believe I remember you not thinking much of Elgar's music in the past, not that I'm calling you out at all, just curious as to what particular piece or detail about the music sparked your interest?

I've certainly had a second go at a composer before that turned into a love affair (Haydn) and the other way around with realizing my appreciation was more minimal than initially thought (Mahler, sorry Daniel).

Elgar has created some of the loveliest music that is deeply moving and powerful. Will be glad to have some further discussions with you about it.

Oh, there's no doubt to have some speculation about my sudden love of Elgar's music, but, to be honest, it was many years coming. My history with Elgar's music isn't as detailed or even remotely interesting as probably many people's here, but I continued to try and try with Elgar for years only to come up with the feeling that the music was good but I was seriously missing something. I wish I could give you a work that triggered this newfound love and admiration I have for it. But Symphony No. 1 hit me pretty hard, but also just going through Barbirolli's set on EMI (still my go-to Elgar performances). I picked up on little moments in the music that revealed a deep, painful yearning. This aspect of Elgar's music attracted me and I didn't quite pick up on before. I mean I know this music well, Greg, but it's just I never really investigated or researched the man's history and the fact that he had hardly any musical training quite frankly astonished me and he came from such a humble background, but the psyche of Elgar is quite complex and, at times, troubled. He gave the music he created his heart and soul and this has become something I've come to appreciate, and admire, about his music. Anyway, it's hard to pinpoint how all of this just came about, but it's 100% real and I was listening to Symphony No. 2 (Davis, LSO Live) on my stereo this afternoon and my Dad came into my room and said "This sounds so familiar. I've heard this work before," and I turned to him and answered "Yeah, this is Elgar's Symphony No. 2." He replied "I should have known. Elgar was just an incredible composer." I just smiled and nodded. Elgar is awesome. 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 18, 2012, 04:11:57 PM
Thanks a bunch for sharing, John.  :)


I'll probably throw on The Black Knight tonight, been a few since I've spun it. And of course his symphonies never stay too far away from my player.  ;D


John, have you heard Boult's live performance of No.1? Recorded in 76 at the Proms, he was almost 90 and it's as energetic of a performance you'll here. I'm not big into applause in my recordings, but you can't deny the sheer joy that erupts from the audience, the final chord is barely over before they begin to celebrate.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 04:19:23 PM
You're welcome, Greg. Here are all the Boult Elgar recordings I own:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000DO96.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000PGTIBQ.01.L.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000MCIB70.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000I0SGXK.01.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 04:30:50 PM
I should also say in addition to Boult, both C. and A. Davis, Barbirolli, Sinopoli, that I also enjoy Handley's Elgar recordings on EMI a lot as well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 05:19:37 PM
I don't know if anyone has seen this or not, but here's some footage of Elgar playing with his dogs. Looks like he's enjoying himself:

http://www.youtube.com/v/0y5LtycnkoM

I'm a dog man myself and the fact that Elgar loved dogs too apparently makes me like him even more. Very cool footage.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 19, 2012, 02:06:47 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 09:14:37 PM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B009MOIQ6U.01.L.jpg)

Une Voix dans le desert is quite remarkable and worth paying extra attention to. It's one of those pieces where, for the most part, a narrator speaks against a musical backdrop - an approach which I've never been particularly fond of in general; but then, halfway through (and with perfect dramatic positioning, arising from a landscape of wartorn desolation, amid the 'stillness of the great graveyards'), there's a soprano solo of such tender longing, sadness and hope that, once heard, will stay with you forever. Just five minutes - but worth buying a whole CD for, even if you don't like anything else on it. I'm listening to it now as I write this. Almost unbearable. And pure Elgar, at his most poignantly human.

I don't know the particular recording you've got here - though Susan Gritton is an Elgarian of distinction, so it should be good. My benchmark recording is this one, with the incomparable Teresa Cahill singing the soprano part:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ZMVZ9A4QL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 19, 2012, 02:08:46 AM
Welcome back, Alan.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 19, 2012, 02:13:27 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 19, 2012, 02:08:46 AM
Welcome back, Alan.

Thanks Karl, though I was never really away. Just quiet, popping in several times a week, but reading rather than talking.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 19, 2012, 02:17:54 AM
I should say, then, how well I appreciate "seeing" you.

Almost every day I see the spine of a thin Taschen volume on JMW Turner, and think, I should ring Alan . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 19, 2012, 02:22:44 AM
I recently discovered that my very first (and for a long time, only) recording of The Enigma Variations -  Sargent and the Philharmonia - is now available as a download from Amazon. My old LP was worn out decades ago and ditched, to be replaced with other versions. But now I could, if I wanted, download that seminal recording and listen to it again. It was my earliest introduction to Elgar at the age of 15 or so, and was one of a handful of recordings that transformed my musical identity.

Dare I listen to it now, I wonder? Especially now I know Monteux's unbelievably fine performance? There's much dithering going on.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 19, 2012, 02:29:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 19, 2012, 02:17:54 AM
Almost every day I see the spine of a thin Taschen volume on JMW Turner, and think, I should ring Alan . . . .

Well, two responses to that. First, given the general question 'should Karl ring Alan?', the answer would surely always be 'yes', from Alan's point of view. Second, just a few days ago I put the finishing touches to a rather tortuously-argued article for the Turner Society, having discovered in the process just how much Turner lore I'd forgotten in recent years! So how much sense you'd get out of me on the subject is debatable. But when did that sort of thing ever stop us?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 19, 2012, 02:49:38 AM
Mind you, it's not that Turner were at all the driver for the call, just association. Not that I don't simply hanker for a good dither, now and again.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 06:11:05 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 19, 2012, 02:06:47 AM
Une Voix dans le desert is quite remarkable and worth paying extra attention to. It's one of those pieces where, for the most part, a narrator speaks against a musical backdrop - an approach which I've never been particularly fond of in general; but then, halfway through (and with perfect dramatic positioning, arising from a landscape of wartorn desolation, amid the 'stillness of the great graveyards'), there's a soprano solo of such tender longing, sadness and hope that, once heard, will stay with you forever. Just five minutes - but worth buying a whole CD for, even if you don't like anything else on it. I'm listening to it now as I write this. Almost unbearable. And pure Elgar, at his most poignantly human.

I don't know the particular recording you've got here - though Susan Gritton is an Elgarian of distinction, so it should be good. My benchmark recording is this one, with the incomparable Teresa Cahill singing the soprano part:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ZMVZ9A4QL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

This is good to hear, Alan. Thanks for your descriptions of this work Une Voix dans le desert. This recording, from the excerpts I heard, sounded excellent. One reason I bought this is for Polonia and The Sanguine Fan which are works that haven't been recorded much.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: snyprrr on December 19, 2012, 07:13:03 AM
I have NOTHING to dislodge Elgar from his perch. NOTHING!! >:D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 07:15:42 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on December 19, 2012, 07:13:03 AM
I have NOTHING to dislodge Elgar from his perch. NOTHING!! >:D

Okay... :-\
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 19, 2012, 08:09:19 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on December 19, 2012, 07:13:03 AM
I have NOTHING to dislodge Elgar from his perch. NOTHING!! >:D

This is yet another reason why the universe is fundamentally problematic. If Elgar were a budgerigar, things would be so much simpler.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 19, 2012, 08:14:56 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 19, 2012, 02:49:38 AM
Not that I don't simply hanker for a good dither, now and again.

Most people underestimate the pleasures of a good dither. It's an enigma.

[Ho ho ho! It's the way I tell 'em.]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 19, 2012, 08:16:43 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 19, 2012, 08:14:56 AM
Most people underestimate the pleasures of a good dither. It's an enigma.

[Ho ho ho! It's the way I tell 'em.]
Groans (but can't help chuckling anyway)!!! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 19, 2012, 08:19:06 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 18, 2012, 09:19:56 AM
Amidst my Elgar purchasing frenzy, I forgot to mention or post this purchase:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000AYM.01.L.jpg)

The excerpts I heard from The Black Knight sounded fantastic.
I love this piece. It is definitely one of my favorite Elgar choral pieces and the first I would recommend to anyone. Performances are all one could hope for.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 19, 2012, 08:23:50 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 19, 2012, 08:16:43 AM
Groans (but can't help chuckling anyway)!!! :)

I know, and I apologise for my lack of self-restraint. It's so far beyond the realms of what constitutes funniness that it goes all the way round the loop and becomes potentially funny for being so hopelessly unfunny. Worthy of a really awful box of after-dinner Christmas crackers, I'm hopin'.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 08:41:10 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 19, 2012, 08:19:06 AM
I love this piece. It is definitely one of my favorite Elgar choral pieces and the first I would recommend to anyone. Performances are all one could hope for.

Yeah, coincidentally someone uploaded the work on YouTube (the same performance) and I listened to it about halfway through the other night. Really an enjoyable work. It has some nice twists and turns. Just enough spice to give the work some grittiness.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 08:54:10 AM
I'm really excited to hear all the new Elgar recordings I have coming. What should I listen to first?

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001MVYV0Q.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B009IF123W.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000A9U.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000A8F.01.L.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000A9N.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000AAI.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001HY3AZK.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001IRFVRG.01.L.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001HY3AZU.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001IRFVQW.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001HY3B0O.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0036PUNH6.01.L.jpg)

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Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on December 19, 2012, 08:59:34 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 19, 2012, 02:17:54 AM
I should say, then, how well I appreciate "seeing" you.

Almost every day I see the spine of a thin Taschen volume on JMW Turner, and think, I should ring Alan . . . .
Nice to see Alan posting.  :)
I've got that book, too. Should get to it over the holidays. Those watercolours from Venice are very nice, among others.
And Elgar's Cello Concerto needs a revisit, too. Actually, it just started playing on the radio as I finished that sentence  :o
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 09:02:30 AM
Quote from: North Star on December 19, 2012, 08:59:34 AM
And Elgar's Cello Concerto needs a revisit, too. Actually, it just started playing on the radio as I finished that sentence  :o

A masterpiece, Karlo.
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on December 19, 2012, 09:14:12 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 09:02:30 AM
A masterpiece, Karlo.
Yes indeed. Unfortunately they played only the first movement (Watkins & A. Davis). Will have to dig du Pré & Barbirolli later.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 09:22:51 AM
Oh well, Karlo. I'm sure you have a recording of it.

Edit: I see that you do. The Du Pre II is a fantastic performance much better than here earlier one with Barenboim (whose conducting I'm not particularly fond of).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 10:24:02 AM
Both Elgar's symphonies are masterpieces IMHO, but it's interesting to read of the lukewarm reception Symphony No. 2 had at its' premiere. I can't find anything wrong with this symphony. It's an incredible display of orchestral flair, heartbreaking lyricism, and tight symphonic structure.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 19, 2012, 10:38:25 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 08:54:10 AM
I'm really excited to hear all the new Elgar recordings I have coming. What should I listen to first?

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001MVYV0Q.01.L.jpg)

Given your current enthusiasm, and not wanting it to cool, you might want to delay a bit before watching this one. The performance is OK, but much of the visual imagery that's associated with the variations doesn't work very well, for me

As for where to start with your rich haul ... well, I'll be utterly predictable. Here, of course, but for now skip the Coronation Ode and start at track 8, with my personal supreme desert island Elgar recording:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000A9N.01.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 19, 2012, 10:52:47 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 10:24:02 AM
Both Elgar's symphonies are masterpieces IMHO, but it's interesting to read of the lukewarm reception Symphony No. 2 had at its' premiere. I can't find anything wrong with this symphony. It's an incredible display of orchestral flair, heartbreaking lyricism, and tight symphonic structure.

ABSOLUTELY! Concerning the premiere, I do wonder! Maybe they were basing their response in comparison to the 1st symphony, which as you know was an incredible success. How each ends is possibly a good debate for the mixed responses. Wheras the 1st ends with glory from the orchestral tutti, in a very clear, celebratory mood, the 2nd ends with a very different kind of glory, so subtle and magical and reflective. Perhaps the audiences did not quite get this as much.... just some thoughts that came into mind! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 10:54:49 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 19, 2012, 10:38:25 AM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001MVYV0Q.01.L.jpg)

Given your current enthusiasm, and not wanting it to cool, you might want to delay a bit before watching this one. The performance is OK, but much of the visual imagery that's associated with the variations doesn't work very well, for me

As for where to start with your rich haul ... well, I'll be utterly predictable. Here, of course, but for now skip the Coronation Ode and start at track 8, with my personal supreme desert island Elgar recording:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000A9N.01.L.jpg)

Thanks for your feedback, Alan. As for the DVD, did you enjoy the documentary? I wish BBC would release the Man Behind The Mask documentary on DVD. I didn't watch all of that program, but it seemed like a good one. I usually don't think too much about the visuals these companies use because they're more from a subjective point-of-view. I'm looking for more substance than visuals. As for the recording of The Spirit of England with Gibson, why should I skip Coronation Ode?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 19, 2012, 10:56:17 AM
Still waiting for The Man Behind the Mash: The Jack Daniels Story
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 10:59:27 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 19, 2012, 10:52:47 AM
ABSOLUTELY! Concerning the premiere, I do wonder! Maybe they were basing their response in comparison to the 1st symphony, which as you know was an incredible success. How each ends is possibly a good debate for the mixed responses. Wheras the 1st ends with glory from the orchestral tutti, in a very clear, celebratory mood, the 2nd ends with a very different kind of glory, so subtle and magical and reflective. Perhaps the audiences did not quite get this as much.... just some thoughts that came into mind! :)

I believe the 1st received around a hundred or more performances internationally. Very, very impressive. I believe Symphony No. 2 is much more introspective, but it does have it's moments of manic orchestra outbursts. That Larghetto is so enrapturing. It completely engulfs the listener.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 19, 2012, 11:06:43 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 10:59:27 AM
I believe the 1st received around a hundred or more performances internationally. Very, very impressive. I believe Symphony No. 2 is much more introspective, but it does have it's moments of manic orchestra outbursts. That Larghetto is so enrapturing. It completely engulfs the listener.

You should see the score for the climax of the Larghetto of the 2nd, so many magical layers all together! Absolutely incredible movement! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 11:09:52 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 19, 2012, 11:06:43 AM
You should see the score for the climax of the Larghetto of the 2nd, so many magical layers all together! Absolutely incredible movement! :)

Elgar was a master of orchestration, so I'm sure visually, it is quite appealing. :) Actually performed, however, sends my mind into the stratosphere. Utterly enthralling.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 19, 2012, 11:43:53 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 10:54:49 AM
Thanks for your feedback, Alan. As for the DVD, did you enjoy the documentary? I wish BBC would release the Man Behind The Mask documentary on DVD. I didn't watch all of that program, but it seemed like a good one. I usually don't think too much about the visuals these companies use because they're more from a subjective point-of-view. I'm looking for more substance than visuals.

Well of course we all have different priorities. If I'm going to watch something while the music is being performed, I want it to be worth watching, and in sympathy with the music, rather than (as here) a rather unconvincing attempt to show that Enigma is somehow 'up to date'. Others may love it, of course, but it didn't work for me particularly well. The documentary is OK, but I doubt you'll learn anything from it that you don't already know.

QuoteAs for the recording of The Spirit of England with Gibson, why should I skip Coronation Ode?

The only reason from my point of view is that The Spirit of England is not just 'one of Elgar's war efforts', but the Elgar work that I'd choose, above all, if I could only have one. Idiosyncratic that may be, but I've been banging this particular drum so often and for so long here now, that folk may wonder whether I ever listen to anything else. Coronation Ode is a perfectly enjoyable piece, but not (in my view) in the same league; and you asked 'where should I start?' - so I offered where I would start, in your place. For here, above all, is Elgar's most direct and greatest response not just to the Great War, but to all wars, and all tragic loss, and to the need for gratitude, remembrance and hope. And (still speaking purely personally) I've never found an alternative recording that comes close to expressing all this so effectively as this one. It's one of my greatest musical treasures.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 11:56:12 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 19, 2012, 11:43:53 AM
Well of course we all have different priorities. If I'm going to watch something while the music is being performed, I want it to be worth watching, and in sympathy with the music, rather than (as here) a rather unconvincing attempt to show that Enigma is somehow 'up to date'. Others may love it, of course, but it didn't work for me particularly well. The documentary is OK, but I doubt you'll learn anything from it that you don't already know.

The only reason from my point of view is that The Spirit of England is not just 'one of Elgar's war efforts', but the Elgar work that I'd choose, above all, if I could only have one. Idiosyncratic that may be, but I've been banging this particular drum so often and for so long here now, that folk may wonder whether I ever listen to anything else. Coronation Ode is a perfectly enjoyable piece, but not (in my view) in the same league; and you asked 'where should I start?' - so I offered where I would start, in your place. For here, above all, is Elgar's most direct and greatest response not just to the Great War, but to all wars, and all tragic loss, and his recognition of the need for gratitude, remembrance and hope. And (still speaking purely personally) I've never found an alternative recording that comes close to expressing all this so effectively as this one. It's one of my greatest musical treasures.

Again, Alan, your feedback is greatly welcomed. :) I understand your sentiments about this Enigma Variations DVD. Of course, subjectively, what you consider not worth your time, may very well mean the opposite for myself, so I'll remain open-minded about it.

Since you feel this strongly about The Spirit of England, I will definitely listen to it first (whenever I receive it). Symphony No. 2 could very well be a response to war as well since it was written in the aftermath of WWI. The same could be said of the Cello Concerto, which both contain so many moments of introspection that it could be understood as a lament for those that have died in the war.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on December 19, 2012, 11:58:26 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 10:24:02 AM
Both Elgar's symphonies are masterpieces IMHO, but it's interesting to read of the lukewarm reception Symphony No. 2 had at its' premiere. I can't find anything wrong with this symphony. It's an incredible display of orchestral flair, heartbreaking lyricism, and tight symphonic structure.
I don't wonder about that reception, actually. It's not an easy symphony to take in at once: there's such a feeling of emotional ambiguity, there's so much pain and loss without sugar-coating, and I think it would have taken many of his listeners by surprise. Moreover, quiet endings have always had problems with audiences, which is too bad, because I love quiet endings.

But I know the first time I heard Elgar's Second - which was indeed live - I felt that I had much more work to do on the piece. The first movement is especially intimidating, insofar as, when you've never heard it before it's very very difficult to figure out what musical/emotional paths Elgar is going to follow. The symphony is a long, arduous journey. We needn't chide the first listeners for having a hard time digesting such an incredible, meaty work. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 12:11:42 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 19, 2012, 11:58:26 AM
I don't wonder about that reception, actually. It's not an easy symphony to take in at once: there's such a feeling of emotional ambiguity, there's so much pain and loss without sugar-coating, and I think it would have taken many of his listeners by surprise. Moreover, quiet endings have always had problems with audiences, which is too bad, because I love quiet endings.

But I know the first time I heard Elgar's Second - which was indeed live - I felt that I had much more work to do on the piece. The first movement is especially intimidating, insofar as, when you've never heard it before it's very very difficult to figure out what musical/emotional paths Elgar is going to follow. The symphony is a long, arduous journey. We needn't chide the first listeners for having a hard time digesting such an incredible, meaty work. :)

No, I suppose not, Brian. I just find it amusing is all. But, yes, the 2nd has a lot of musical material to digest. Quiet endings have always been something I enjoyed to because they against what we're expecting of a finale much of the time. It too me several times with both of Elgar's symphonies to come to fully appreciate them. Now, of course, I love them and wouldn't be without them.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 19, 2012, 01:02:47 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 11:56:12 AM
Symphony No. 2 could very well be a response to war as well since it was written in the aftermath of WWI.

Not so - first performed in 1911 I believe. Though one might regard it as more 'pessimistic' than the first symphony (like Brian, I think it's a lot harder for most listeners to tackle than the 1st), there are various plausible reasons proposed for that; but notably, the Great War was still 3 years ahead. Of course he would be aware of 'rumblings' and increased tension; and there would be added significance for him because the Germans had been very good to his music.

QuoteThe same could be said of the Cello Concerto, which both contain so many moments of introspection that it could be understood as a lament for those that have died in the war.
I don't think there's any doubt that the war influenced Elgar profoundly, and thereby influenced the later works - the cello concerto, the chamber music, and even the 3rd symphony (again, a dark one with sweet moments). But there's no direct programme associated with those works, and my personal attitude to them is to regard them as expressions of a temperament that has been affected, among other things, by the war; but anything more specific would always be conjectural.

My point though, is that Spirit of England is not like that. We know exactly how and why it came to be written (it's well-documented, quite apart from the actual words that are sung), and we know pretty well how Elgar would want us to respond to it. We can approach it with a clear expectation of 'what it's about', even though I hesitate to say that so bluntly, for fear of suggesting some limitation in response.

Incidentally, we had some good chat about S of E back in June, starting around #1490:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg638041/topicseen.html#msg638041 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg638041/topicseen.html#msg638041)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 01:14:07 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 19, 2012, 01:02:47 PM
Not so - first performed in 1911 I believe. Though one might regard it as more 'pessimistic' than the first symphony (like Brian, I think it's a lot harder for most listeners to tackle than the 1st), there are various plausible reasons proposed for that; but notably, the Great War was still 3 years ahead. Of course he would be aware of 'rumblings' and increased tension; and there would be added significance for him because the Germans had been very good to his music.

Quite right. I got my dates mixed up! I must definitely be thinking about only the Cello Concerto then. Symphony No. 2, however, regardless of whether it was written before or after WWI does, in my opinion, have a feeling of hopelessness and isolation. Just my ears...not yours obviously.

QuoteI don't think there's any doubt that the war influenced Elgar profoundly, and thereby influenced the later works - the cello concerto, the chamber music, and even the 3rd symphony (again, a dark one with sweet moments). But there's no direct programme associated with those works, and my personal attitude to them is to regard them as expressions of a temperament that has been affected, among other things, by the war; but anything more specific would always be conjectural.

My point though, is that Spirit of England is not like that. We know exactly how and why it came to be written (it's well-documented, quite apart from the actual words that are sung), and we know pretty well how Elgar would want us to respond to it. We can approach it with a clear expectation of 'what it's about', even though I hesitate to say that so bluntly, for fear of suggesting some limitation in response.

You're correct that there's no program with works like the Cello Concerto but the emotions are undeniable I think. Like you said, I believe Elgar was affected by the war as well and whether or not we acknowledge these feelings in his music it doesn't mean that they aren't there or could be there. The Spirit of England will be a work I approach, like any new composition to me, with a blank canvas.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 19, 2012, 01:19:02 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 01:14:07 PM
Symphony No. 2, however, regardless of whether it was written before or after WWI does, in my opinion, have a feeling of hopelessness and isolation. Just my ears...not yours obviously.

Not sure how you got that from what I said - hopelessness and desolation, most certainly. I hear that too. I just think the source of all that, within Elgar, can be interpreted very sensibly in a variety of ways.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 01:24:37 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 19, 2012, 01:19:02 PM
Not sure how you got that from what I said - hopelessness and desolation, most certainly. I hear that too. I just think the source of all that, within Elgar, can be interpreted very sensibly in a variety of ways.

Absolutely. All composers' music can interpreted in many ways, but it's good to know you hear what I hear too. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 04:31:35 PM
I declare the month of January to be Elgar listening month!

(http://www.toccataclassics.com/cms/tmp/thumbs/Edward-Elgar-240x-A2F55EB4.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 05:28:21 PM
Greg will be proud of me, just bought:

(http://img1.targetimg1.com/wcsstore/TargetSAS//img/p/12/05/12056421.jpg)

Now, no more purchases for the rest of the year. :) Next year, Tasmin Little's VC recording and Paul Watkins' Cello Concerto recording both with Sir Andrew Davis.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 19, 2012, 05:36:25 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 05:28:21 PM
Greg will be proud of me, just bought:

(http://img1.targetimg1.com/wcsstore/TargetSAS//img/p/12/05/12056421.jpg)

Now, no more purchases for the rest of the year. :) Next year, Tasmin Little's VC recording and Paul Watkins' Cello Concerto recording both with Sir Andrew Davis.

Bravo!  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 05:40:32 PM
Concerning Symphony No. 2, Barbirolli still has the finest Larghetto on recording IMHO. There's just something about Barbirolli's Elgar performances that remain special to me. In a way, he has helped me understand his music more deeply.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 05:43:51 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 19, 2012, 05:36:25 PM
Bravo!  8)

Besides your enthusiasm for this recording, watching an excerpt from this same force's performance at the BBC Proms prompted me to drop what I'm doing and buy it immediately. Those huge walls of orchestra and choir sounded phenomenal.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 05:53:51 PM
I really don't know what has come over me. I seldom even listened to Elgar several months ago and I examined his music many years ago, but, my goodness, something definitely happened to me. I'm picking up nuances in his music that I never quite heard before. I'm recognizing melodies and harmonies that I never picked up on. Need I go on?

"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore." :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 19, 2012, 06:18:29 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 05:53:51 PM
I really don't know what has come over me. I seldom even listened to Elgar several months ago and I examined his music many years ago, but, my goodness, something definitely happened to me. I'm picking up nuances in his music that I never quite heard before. I'm recognizing melodies and harmonies that I never picked up on. Need I go on?

"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore." :)

You want some melodies, John? Then look no further than this disc...

[asin] B001M5AT80[/asin]

More than likely you have these works, but this disc is pure bliss from beginning to end.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2012, 06:23:47 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 19, 2012, 06:18:29 PM
You want some melodies, John? Then look no further than this disc...

[asin] B001M5AT80[/asin]

More than likely you have these works, but this disc is pure bliss from beginning to end.

Oh, yes. I have heard these works many times, but I haven't bought this particular recording (yet). I haven't been too impressed with many of the Harmonia Mundi recordings I have bought that have gained critical acclaim, but it would be hard to mess up these works, so I'll keep it under the radar. Thanks, Greg.

Wait a minute...I can get it for $7...uhhhh....this CDCDCD is some horrible stuff...:D, but I'm going to resist the temptation.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 20, 2012, 07:54:56 AM
Such activity in this thread. I'm exhausted from working. This week I have been driving around Helsinki, Espoo and Vantaa delivering bottles to the best partners of the company I work in.  I had to deliver ALL of the bottles ??? Helsinki has got plenty of snow. Lukily I got to drive a Nissan Terrano II 4-wheel drive turned on.

I see often people say that The Apostles and The Kingdom are long and a bit boring works but I rank them among Elgar's best achivements. Elgar's genius lies in quiet moments and these works contain lots of that, quiet but complex structures.

Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 20, 2012, 08:08:48 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 20, 2012, 07:54:56 AM
Such activity in this thread. I'm exhausted from working. This week I have been driving around Helsinki, Espoo and Vantaa delivering bottles to the best partners of the company I work in.  I had to deliver ALL of the bottles ??? Helsinki has got plenty of snow. Lukily I got to drive a Nissan Terrano II 4-wheel drive turned on.

I see often people say that The Apostles and The Kingdom are long and a bit boring works but I rank them among Elgar's best achivements. Elgar's genius lies in quiet moments and these works contain lots of that, quiet but complex structures.

Sounds like you played Santa a bit. Glad you're safe.


You could count me as one of those critics, and I would never say they are poorly written pieces by any means. But for me, there's more variety in Gerontius that attracts, while also containing those quiet moments. The Aposotles I've only given a listen or two, The Kingdom I do own and have spent more time with it.

I guess I'm also more attracted to the story of Gerontius. I know the text has received some criticism, but I enjoy the theatrical-aspect of the work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 20, 2012, 08:56:55 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 20, 2012, 08:08:48 AM
Sounds like you played Santa a bit. Glad you're safe.

Thanks, I am safe. Yeah, I played Santa a bit (or Joulupukki as we call him in Finland).

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 20, 2012, 08:08:48 AMYou could count me as one of those critics, and I would never say they are poorly written pieces by any means. But for me, there's more variety in Gerontius that attracts, while also containing those quiet moments. The Aposotles I've only given a listen or two, The Kingdom I do own and have spent more time with it.

I guess I'm also more attracted to the story of Gerontius. I know the text has received some criticism, but I enjoy the theatrical-aspect of the work.

I have seen many people saying similar things you do. That's why I brought this up. I am in a very small minority and I am curious about why. I have to say that The Apostles and The Kingdom (Boult's) have given me perhaps the most mindblowing Elgar moments. I think this is because these are really large works. I suppose most people just don't take these works the same way I do.

Now I need to go to sauna (that's what Finns do)...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 20, 2012, 09:07:27 AM
There may not be much that I miss about living in a Baltic state, but the sauna is certainly one of those things I miss.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 20, 2012, 09:51:47 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 20, 2012, 09:07:27 AM
There may not be much that I miss about living in a Baltic state, but the sauna is certainly one of those things I miss.

Have you ever experienced a Finnish sauna Karl?

The warmth of sauna is an important "compensation" for the cold weather we have to endure many months every year. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 20, 2012, 10:04:23 AM
Well, I understand that an Estonian sauna (which I have experienced) differs to a Russian sauna; I don't know if there is aught different between an Estonian and a Finnish sauna.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 20, 2012, 12:04:13 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 20, 2012, 10:04:23 AM
Well, I understand that an Estonian sauna (which I have experienced) differs to a Russian sauna; I don't know if there is aught different between an Estonian and a Finnish sauna.

Well, all saunas aren't identical in Finland but one significant trait is that the temperature in steam room should be at least 80 degrees Celsius. Finns don't like lukewarm saunas.  ;D

The hottest sauna I have experienced in Lapland, the northest parts of Finland (Norway was 50 meters away on the other side of the river "Teno") had temperature of 140 degrees Celsius. I was only 11 years old and after a brief "self-cooking" I was more than willing to swim in the cold watered river. That was extreme. Normally Finns don't go above 100 degrees Celsius, typically 80-90 degrees.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 20, 2012, 12:10:24 PM
I have a vague memory that on one occasion when Elgar was conducting the slow movement of the 1st symphony, he instructed the orchestra to play it like 'something they might have heard down at the sauna'. I suppose it was something he said in the heat of the moment. I think there might be something in it, because critics have long believed the dearth of compositions in later life was due to Elgar's running out of steam.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on December 20, 2012, 01:32:24 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 20, 2012, 12:04:13 PM
Well, all saunas aren't identical in Finland but one significant trait is that the temperature in steam room should be at least 80 degrees Celsius. Finns don't like lukewarm saunas.  ;D

The hottest sauna I have experienced in Lapland, the northest parts of Finland (Norway was 50 meters away on the other side of the river "Teno") had temperature of 140 degrees Celsius. I was only 11 years old and after a brief "self-cooking" I was more than willing to swim in the cold watered river. That was extreme. Normally Finns don't go above 100 degrees Celsius, typically 80-90 degrees.
Sauna talk, yay! (ja kiva että oot selvinny ehjänä etelän keleissä autoillessa jalojen juomien kanssa)
The most extreme temperature I've saunaed in was about 150 deg. Celsius - after my brother had warmed the kiuas (sauna stove) for us at my grandparents'. We had to throw a lot more water on the bench than on the sauna stones.
But surely the more extreme experience was close to the Norwegian border for me, too - swimming in a 0 deg C (there were ice crystals on the surface of the water) lake Kilpisjärvi between saunaing.
Anyway, me and my father are very keen saunojas, and we used to heat the sauna to about 100 deg C, but nowadays we've found that it's much better when the temperature is at around 80 deg C, and we have the window open when we aren't there, so the air is really humid and oxygen-rich, too. And you can sauna longer, because of the less excessive heat.

Sauna is definitely the best place to socialize with friends, preferably with a beer or three - I don't think anything could be more relaxing.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 20, 2012, 01:56:28 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 20, 2012, 12:10:24 PM
I have a vague memory that on one occasion when Elgar was conducting the slow movement of the 1st symphony, he instructed the orchestra to play it like 'something they might have heard down at the sauna'. I suppose it was something he said in the heat of the moment. I think there might be something in it, because critics have long believed the dearth of compositions in later life was due to Elgar's running out of steam.
Did I mention that the worse the groan, the more I enjoy it?!?!? :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 20, 2012, 03:03:40 PM
I have a vague memory.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2012, 06:03:42 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 20, 2012, 07:54:56 AM

I see often people say that The Apostles and The Kingdom are long and a bit boring works but I rank them among Elgar's best achivements. Elgar's genius lies in quiet moments and these works contain lots of that, quiet but complex structures.

They sounded pretty darn good to me, Pujo (this is your name correct?). You can call me, John. Anyway, yes, I'm really hoping to get The Kingdom with Mark Elder, but also the new The Apostles recording (comes out in January). Really excited to listen to all the recordings I have coming so far! What's your favorite purely orchestral work by Elgar?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2012, 06:06:33 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 20, 2012, 12:10:24 PMI think there might be something in it, because critics have long believed the dearth of compositions in later life was due to Elgar's running out of steam.

Then they don't know their history. As we all know, Elgar composed very little after the death of his wife. I think he had plenty of steam, but he put his energies into conducting and eventually recording. I would like to pick up those electrical recording at some point just to have some historical references of the man himself conducting his own music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 20, 2012, 06:10:31 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 20, 2012, 06:03:42 PM
They sounded pretty darn good to me, Pujo (this is your name correct?). You can call me, John. Anyway, yes, I'm really hoping to get The Kingdom with Mark Elder, but also the new The Apostles recording (comes out in January). Really excited to listen to all the recordings I have coming so far! What's your favorite purely orchestral work by Elgar?
Don't forget the Music Makers either. It's a wonderful work. There are a few versions, but I am only familair with the Davis/Teldec version, which is quite fine.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2012, 06:20:13 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 20, 2012, 06:10:31 PM
Don't forget the Music Makers either. It's a wonderful work. There are a few versions, but I am only familair with the Davis/Teldec version, which is quite fine.

Yes, I need to listen to this work again. It's been way too long. I'll listen to the Andrew Davis performance. Thanks, Neal. By the way, what do you think about Sea Pictures? For me, this is Elgar at his most poetic. Just a lovely work all around.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 20, 2012, 06:34:36 PM
The Music Makers has long been my favorite choral/orchestral piece by Elgar, but with Gerontius quickly closing in. The Eldar recording of Makers is very good, so is Wright's on Naxos, which also benefits from a nice version of Sea Pictures.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V06veqxlL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41rHVKVEZVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2012, 06:43:10 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 20, 2012, 06:34:36 PM
The Music Makers has long been my favorite choral/orchestral piece by Elgar, but with Gerontius quickly closing in. The Eldar recording of Makers is very good, so is Wright's on Naxos, which also benefits from a nice version of Sea Pictures.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V06veqxlL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41rHVKVEZVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I've got the Elder on the way. The other two versions of The Music Makers I own are the Boult and Davis. I'm not so sure about that Naxos recording, Greg. I heard this performance of Sea Pictures via YouTube and I was disappointed. I missed the orchestral weight of Barbirolli. Plus, I doubt any vocalist will ever top Baker's performance, but I've heard several that come close, but there's something about her voice and accompaniment from Barbirolli that just sounds so right to me. I can't get it out of my head and I'm constantly holding every other performance up to this high standard. I know this isn't good as I should judge a performance on it's own merits, but, still, I can't help it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 20, 2012, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 20, 2012, 06:43:10 PM
I've got the Elder on the way. The other two versions of The Music Makers I own are the Boult and Davis. I'm not so sure about that Naxos recording, Greg. I heard this performance of Sea Pictures via YouTube and I was disappointed. I missed the orchestral weight of Barbirolli. Plus, I doubt any vocalist will ever top Baker's performance, but I've heard several that come close, but there's something about her voice and accompaniment from Barbirolli that just sounds so right to me. I can't get it out of my head and I'm constantly holding every other performance up to this high standard. I know this isn't good as I should judge a performance on it's own merits, but, still, I can't help it.

No doubt Baker is a classic, but similar DuPre and the Elgar CC, there are some really good performances of these works that shouldn't get overlooked.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2012, 07:00:45 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 20, 2012, 06:52:26 PM
No doubt Baker is a classic, but similar DuPre and the Elgar CC, there are some really good performances of these works that shouldn't get overlooked.

Oh, I haven't overlooked them. I just know the gold standard when I heard them. ;) :D That said, have you heard The Kingdom or The Apostles, Greg? I'd like to get your opinion of them.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 20, 2012, 07:14:36 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 20, 2012, 06:20:13 PM
Yes, I need to listen to this work again. It's been way too long. I'll listen to the Andrew Davis performance. Thanks, Neal. By the way, what do you think about Sea Pictures? For me, this is Elgar at his most poetic. Just a lovely work all around.
I have only good things to say about it. Baker is certainly the most often recommended and it is full of deft touches. But the beauty with songs like this is that every singer brings something different to the table and there are other versions with their own unique details/approach.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2012, 07:24:04 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 20, 2012, 07:14:36 PM
I have only good things to say about it. Baker is certainly the most often recommended and it is full of deft touches. But the beauty with songs like this is that every singer brings something different to the table and there are other versions with their own unique details/approach.

Well this is true. One reason I didn't like the performance of Sea Pictures that Greg recommended (Connolly/Wright/Bournemouth) is because of the movement Where Corals Lie. I thought it was too fast and there wasn't enough weight from the orchestra. I need to listen Handley's again with Bernadette Greevy. I remember this one being really good.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 21, 2012, 01:20:14 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 20, 2012, 01:56:28 PM
Did I mention that the worse the groan, the more I enjoy it?!?!? :)

I know. I put it there just for you, to fill the space between us. Like steam.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 21, 2012, 01:21:36 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 20, 2012, 03:03:40 PM
I have a vague memory.

Remind me - who are you, again?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 21, 2012, 01:34:22 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 20, 2012, 06:10:31 PM
Don't forget the Music Makers either. It's a wonderful work.

I sometimes think that when he composed Music Makers, Elgar found a way of transforming nostalgia into high art. It's one of those pieces where you really need to be steeped in Elgar lore to pick up all the subtle resonances (among the not-so-subtle ones). It seems to oscillate somehow (or is that just me?) between the private and the public Elgar, and since I've been listening to Elgar almost all my life, it becomes a kind of contemplation of my own musical journey too.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 21, 2012, 01:43:17 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 20, 2012, 07:14:36 PM
Baker is certainly the most often recommended and it is full of deft touches. But the beauty with songs like this is that every singer brings something different to the table and there are other versions with their own unique details/approach.

Trouble is, Janet Baker's performance is so memorable that if it's the one you hear first, others can seem unsatisfying, merely on the grounds that it doesn't sound like her. I remember listening to Baker's Sea Pictures one warm, bright sunlit morning, on a balcony overlooking the sea; and the experience was so perfect that I've never been able to listen to other versions since without wishing it were Janet. (I'm not advocating this situation as desirable - just describing the effect.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 21, 2012, 02:05:54 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 21, 2012, 01:21:36 AM
Remind me - who are you, again?

Hang on, it's around here, somewhere.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 21, 2012, 02:08:32 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 21, 2012, 01:43:17 AM
Trouble is, Janet Baker's performance is so memorable that if it's the one you hear first, others can seem unsatisfying, merely on the grounds that it doesn't sound like her. I remember listening to Baker's Sea Pictures one warm, bright sunlit morning, on a balcony overlooking the sea; and the experience was so perfect that I've never been able to listen to other versions since without wishing it were Janet. (I'm not advocating this situation as desirable - just describing the effect.)

Spot on, yet again — both the description (appropriately evocative) and in questioning the desirability of the result.

If non-advocacy can be a form of posing a question . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 21, 2012, 09:36:51 AM
Quote from: North Star on December 20, 2012, 01:32:24 PM(ja kiva että oot selvinny ehjänä etelän keleissä autoillessa jalojen juomien kanssa)

Joo, kyllä otti koville toimittaa pari tusinaa pulloa ympäri pääkaupunkiseutua. Ensin julkisilla maanantaina ihan keskustassa, sitten ti-to autolla muihin paikkoihin ja tänään viimeinen puteli viereiseen taloon talonmiehelle. Autoa kun ei saa oven eteen tai ensikertaa paikalla tullessa ei edes tiedä missä se ovi oikeastaan on niin auton jättää johonkin. Siinä sitten kertyy kummasti metrejä sohjossa kävellen. Kyllä näissä hommissa pitäisi käyttää jotain Alkon omia palveluita mutta meikäläinen on sellaisessa firmassa, jossa harrastetaan "sisäistystä" eli ulkoistuksen vastakohtaa älyttömyyksiin saakka. No, eipähän työt lopu kesken...

Non-Finnish speaking people can test online translators with this irrelevant outburst.  :D


Quote from: North Star on December 20, 2012, 01:32:24 PMThe most extreme temperature I've saunaed in was about 150 deg. Celsius - after my brother had warmed the kiuas (sauna stove) for us at my grandparents'. We had to throw a lot more water on the bench than on the sauna stones.

That's beyond extreme. Once when I was young I warmed a sauna with too much enthusiasm and my father checked if sauna was hot enough. Well, the thermometer said it was 140 degrees Celsius and my father came back very upset. We kept doors open and waited until the tempature dropped below 100 degrees before going in. Luckily the summer cottage didn't burn down...  ;D

Quote from: North Star on December 20, 2012, 01:32:24 PMBut surely the more extreme experience was close to the Norwegian border for me, too - swimming in a 0 deg C (there were ice crystals on the surface of the water) lake Kilpisjärvi between saunaing.

The water was maybe 10 degrees when I swan in Tenojoki. It was summertime.

Quote from: North Star on December 20, 2012, 01:32:24 PMWe've found that it's much better when the temperature is at around 80 deg C, and we have the window open when we aren't there, so the air is really humid and oxygen-rich, too. And you can sauna longer, because of the less excessive heat.

It depends on the type of a sauna what is optimum temperature. The floor of the sauna in my house has very good thermal insulation. The lower parts of the steam room are warm and 80 degrees feels pretty hot already (because even feet are in warm air). A sauna with cold floor needs higher temperature.

Quote from: North Star on December 20, 2012, 01:32:24 PMSauna is definitely the best place to socialize with friends, preferably with a beer or three - I don't think anything could be more relaxing.

Yes. Also, everyone are equal (naked) in sauna. Badges of honour are left to dressing room.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 21, 2012, 09:50:20 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 20, 2012, 06:03:42 PM
They sounded pretty darn good to me, Pujo (this is your name correct?). You can call me, John. Anyway, yes, I'm really hoping to get The Kingdom with Mark Elder, but also the new The Apostles recording (comes out in January). Really excited to listen to all the recordings I have coming so far! What's your favorite purely orchestral work by Elgar?

Actually it's Poju (pujo means mugwort, "Artemisia vulgaris" in Finnish). Nice to hear you liking these two works John. I'd like to have Elder's recordings too but these are pretty expensive discs. I suppose they are very good. You have bought tons of Elgar so you have a lot to enjoy!

My favorite purely orchestral work by Elgar? Symphony No. 2!

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 21, 2012, 09:59:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 20, 2012, 06:06:33 PM
Then they don't know their history. As we all know, Elgar composed very little after the death of his wife. I think he had plenty of steam, but he put his energies into conducting and eventually recording. I would like to pick up those electrical recording at some point just to have some historical references of the man himself conducting his own music.

In 1930's Elgar started to compose with new energy (The Third Symphony, Piano Concerto and opera Spanish Lady) but then Elgar's health started to decline due to cancer and all of these works stayed unfinished until recently "completed" by other composers except the opera.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 21, 2012, 10:19:59 AM
Elgar's minor works can be surprisingly delightful. A week or so ago I listened to Scenes from the Bavarian Highlands (Naxos 8.570541). This work seems like a simple and forgettable piece for choir and piano but it is actually very entertaining in my opinion. I really like the piano part in the last part, "The Marksmen". Also, the choir and piano seems to play with each other wonderfully throughout the whole work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on December 21, 2012, 11:00:50 AM
So, what Elgar do I need, beside Du Pré / Baker in CC and Sea Pictures, and Znaider's VC? Box sets and single discs are fine. Perhaps the EMI box set?



Quote from: 71 dB on December 21, 2012, 09:36:51 AM
Joo, kyllä otti koville toimittaa pari tusinaa pulloa ympäri pääkaupunkiseutua. Ensin julkisilla maanantaina ihan keskustassa, sitten ti-to autolla muihin paikkoihin ja tänään viimeinen puteli viereiseen taloon talonmiehelle. Autoa kun ei saa oven eteen tai ensikertaa paikalla tullessa ei edes tiedä missä se ovi oikeastaan on niin auton jättää johonkin. Siinä sitten kertyy kummasti metrejä sohjossa kävellen. Kyllä näissä hommissa pitäisi käyttää jotain Alkon omia palveluita mutta meikäläinen on sellaisessa firmassa, jossa harrastetaan "sisäistystä" eli ulkoistuksen vastakohtaa älyttömyyksiin saakka. No, eipähän työt lopu kesken...

Non-Finnish speaking people can test online translators with this irrelevant outburst.  :D
Juu!  ;D

Quote from: 71 dB on December 21, 2012, 09:36:51 AM
That's beyond extreme. Once when I was young I warmed a sauna with too much enthusiasm and my father checked if sauna was hot enough. Well, the thermometer said it was 140 degrees Celsius and my father came back very upset. We kept doors open and waited until the tempature dropped below 100 degrees before going in. Luckily the summer cottage didn't burn down...  ;D

The water was maybe 10 degrees when I swan in Tenojoki. It was summertime.

It depends on the type of a sauna what is optimum temperature. The floor of the sauna in my house has very good thermal insulation. The lower parts of the steam room are warm and 80 degrees feels pretty hot already (because even feet are in warm air). A sauna with cold floor needs higher temperature.

Yes. Also, everyone are equal (naked) in sauna. Badges of honour are left to dressing room.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 21, 2012, 11:05:45 AM
Definitely want the violin sonata.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on December 21, 2012, 11:07:18 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 21, 2012, 11:05:45 AM
Definitely want the violin sonata.
I've read that from you before, Karl, and I even have a Youtube video in the bookmarks panel of my browser, should get to it...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on December 21, 2012, 11:41:16 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 21, 2012, 10:19:59 AM
Elgar's minor works can be surprisingly delightful. A week or so ago I listened to Scenes from the Bavarian Highlands (Naxos 8.570541). This work seems like a simple and forgettable piece for choir and piano but it is actually very entertaining in my opinion. I really like the piano part in the last part, "The Marksmen". Also, the choir and piano seems to play with each other wonderfully throughout the whole work.

There's also an orchestral version, which I posted about a couple days ago:

Quote from: Brian on December 18, 2012, 09:29:52 AM
I saw Vasily Petrenko conduct "Scenes from the Bavarian Highlands" live in Liverpool. Very amusing piece, really - all drinking songs and machismo and somewhat comical caricature. A lot of fun in concert, not sure how often I'd play it on CD. (He also did the Second Symphony; it was the first time I'd ever heard either piece.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 21, 2012, 06:10:10 PM
I finally decided to just get the third Spirit of England with Felicity Lott. It may not come until sometime in January, but it will be interesting to compare this 'new' version against the other two.
[asin]B000005GSB[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2012, 06:51:05 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 21, 2012, 09:50:20 AM
Actually it's Poju (pujo means mugwort, "Artemisia vulgaris" in Finnish). Nice to hear you liking these two works John. I'd like to have Elder's recordings too but these are pretty expensive discs. I suppose they are very good. You have bought tons of Elgar so you have a lot to enjoy!

My favorite purely orchestral work by Elgar? Symphony No. 2!

My apologies. I had the "o" and "u" mixed up! :-[ Thanks, yes, I have quite a lot of Elgar on the way, but I already had a good many Elgar recordings before these purchases. I'm only "adding to the pile" now. :D I actually like A LOT of Elgar's music. Most of it I've heard actually with exception of the first Pomp & Circumstance march. My favorite of the five is No. 3. Anyway, these works are like Shostakovich's propaganda works, they don't fully represent what the composer is capable of doing, but they're still fun to listen to nonetheless.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2012, 06:52:05 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 21, 2012, 11:05:45 AM
Definitely want the violin sonata.

Will be listening to this one when I receive the Nash Ensemble disc on Hyperion.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2012, 07:24:10 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 21, 2012, 10:19:59 AM
Elgar's minor works can be surprisingly delightful.

I agree, Poju. Listened to Dream Children before heading off to work this morning and really enjoyed it. A very short work, but if it was any longer it just wouldn't be the same. Another "minor" work by Elgar I love is Elegy. Absolutely beautiful, but all these miniature works are masterfully crafted and contain wonderful melodies.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 22, 2012, 12:22:44 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 21, 2012, 06:10:10 PM
I finally decided to just get the third Spirit of England with Felicity Lott. It may not come until sometime in January, but it will be interesting to compare this 'new' version against the other two.
[asin]B000005GSB[/asin]

The whole story of the differences, for me, is flagged up in the first entry of the soprano: 'Spirit of England go before us'. Lott sings beautifully enough, but listening to her, then to Cahill, is like comparing a map of England to actually being there.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 22, 2012, 12:37:19 AM
Quote from: North Star on December 21, 2012, 11:00:50 AMSo, what Elgar do I need, beside Du Pré / Baker in CC and Sea Pictures, and Znaider's VC? Box sets and single discs are fine.

In addition to Boult and Barbirolli's boxed sets of the major works, I couldn't possibly manage without:

1. The Spirit of England (Cahill/Gibson)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wQo9w-jHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

2. Pierre Monteux's Enigma Variations - unbelievably fine.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81vCcPzybOL._AA1500_.jpg)

3. All the chamber music (Violin sonata, string quartet, piano quintet). You can get all of these in fine performances, plus the superb performance by Hugh Bean of the violin concerto, on this two-CD set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

4. The complete set of Elgar's own (electrical) recordings - a great bargain, this box:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411tugNWIbL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 22, 2012, 02:03:55 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 21, 2012, 06:51:05 PM
My apologies. I had the "o" and "u" mixed up! :-[ Thanks, yes, I have quite a lot of Elgar on the way, but I already had a good many Elgar recordings before these purchases. I'm only "adding to the pile" now. :D I actually like A LOT of Elgar's music. Most of it I've heard actually with exception of the first Pomp & Circumstance march. My favorite of the five is No. 3. Anyway, these works are like Shostakovich's propaganda works, they don't fully represent what the composer is capable of doing, but they're still fun to listen to nonetheless.

No harm done John. I believe you had plenty of Elgar before but since you wrote how something has happened to you and you now hear new things in Elgar's music you must be listening to your new and old Elgar discs with new ears.

I haven't even though about which pomp and circumstance I like the most. Elgar liked to write them and masses liked to hear them. Pop music of the days but also brilliant march music nevertheless. I haven't heard the compeleted sixth march yet.

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 21, 2012, 07:24:10 PM
I agree, Poju. Listened to Dream Children before heading off to work this morning and really enjoyed it. A very short work, but if it was any longer it just wouldn't be the same. Another "minor" work by Elgar I love is Elegy. Absolutely beautiful, but all these miniature works are masterfully crafted and contain wonderful melodies.

Yes, Dream Children is lovely as are The Wand of Youth and Nursery Suites. I listen to there works quite often actually. Comforting music is needed in our cold hard world where money, competition, success and assiduity are everything.

To me Elgar's Elegy is a short major work.

Quote from: Elgarian on December 22, 2012, 12:22:44 AM
The whole story of the differences, for me, is flagged up in the first entry of the soprano: 'Spirit of England go before us'. Lott sings beautifully enough, but listening to her, then to Cahill, is like comparing a map of England to actually being there.

I don't find these differences that dramatic. Lott was my first and only "Spirit" for a decade or so until buying Cahill since you recommend it so heavily. My brain works differently from other people and I have difficulties comparing recordings. I don't remember accurately how the other recordings sound when I am listening to a recording. Makes comparing difficult. I can "comprehent" only one performance at a time, the one I am listening to. It's like comparing apple and oranges. While eating an apple you don't remember the taste of oranges and vice versa. You can't tell which one you like more. You only know you like both. That's how I feel about Cahill and Lott. I like them both a lot but telling which one I prefer is impossible.

For me it's important the a performance works "internally". Both Cahill and Lott do imo. Anyway, I have listenend to Cahill only twice so I might find out about it's treasures later in my life...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2012, 07:30:24 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 22, 2012, 02:03:55 AM
No harm done John. I believe you had plenty of Elgar before but since you wrote how something has happened to you and you now hear new things in Elgar's music you must be listening to your new and old Elgar discs with new ears.

I haven't even thought about which pomp and circumstance I like the most. Elgar liked to write them and masses liked to hear them. Pop music of the days but also brilliant march music nevertheless. I haven't heard the compeleted sixth march yet.

Yes, Dream Children is lovely as are The Wand of Youth and Nursery Suites. I listen to there works quite often actually. Comforting music is needed in our cold hard world where money, competition, success and assiduity are everything.

To me Elgar's Elegy is a short major work.

Yes, I guess what I meant is that even tough the Pomp & Circumstance marches aren't top-drawer Elgar in terms of emotional depth, it still doesn't make them any less enjoyable to listen to. The Wand of Youth and Nursery Suite are fine works. As for my newfound appreciation for Elgar, I blame it on Barbirolli! ;) :D

By the way, changing gears, I listened to the recording of The Black Knight and Scenes from the Bavarian Highlands last night and they didn't make much of an impression on me. It could have been that I just wasn't receptive to the music, but I will have another listen to this Hickox performance soon.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 22, 2012, 09:01:34 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 22, 2012, 02:03:55 AM
I don't find these differences that dramatic.

Interesting choice of words, there. It's in the drama where the most startling differences arise, for me. Cahill invests her singing with a sense of the drama of the words, while Lott sings them beautifully, but just as words. When Cahill sings the word 'England', she carried along with it a sense of involvement that seems to include something beyond mere patriotism; rather, something deeply felt, more like the old concept of 'Albion'. Whereas Lott sings the word 'England' like any other. That's what I hear, anyway.

But of course it's perfectly reasonable to prefer either approach.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: rigormortis on December 23, 2012, 12:49:53 AM
I like these 3 Elgar Records of mine a lot:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8171/8015307803_fb747a0a7b.jpg)Ida Haendel on Violin with Sir Adrian Boult
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7070/6836625242_15b0328bbc.jpg) Serenade op.20, Dutch String Ensemble Special Recording

and this classic edition:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7252/7093325471_f040e9207e.jpg) Enigma Variations, Sir Malcolm Sargent
Thanks,
Greetings from Hans
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 23, 2012, 12:58:04 AM
Quote from: rigormortis on December 23, 2012, 12:49:53 AM
I like these 3 Elgar Records of mine a lot:
...

and this classic edition:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7252/7093325471_f040e9207e.jpg) Enigma Variations, Sir Malcolm Sargent

How interesting. This Sargent recording is the one I referred to in a post here a few days ago - see #1700, here:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg681557.html#msg681557 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg681557.html#msg681557)

It was my first Enigma recording at the age of 15/16, and was responsible for igniting my personal Elgar flame. I haven't heard it for decades (the LP wore out and was discarded long ago), but having discovered that it's available for download, I'm trying to decide whether to indulge ... or whether to let sleeping dogs lie.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: rigormortis on December 23, 2012, 03:11:42 AM
It's always nice to hear your youth sins again ;-)
I heard Mendelssohn's Waldo de los Rios again and it made me laugh that that one brought me to the Classiques ;-)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2012, 06:51:53 AM
I'm really looking forward to hearing Gibson's The Spirit of England now. Thanks to Elgarian's comments.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 23, 2012, 07:09:07 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 23, 2012, 06:51:53 AM
I'm really looking forward to hearing Gibson's The Spirit of England now. Thanks to Elgarian's comments.

You won't be disappointed, John. It's a heck of a piece, sadness is quite apparent in the music, but it's controlled. Elgar always seems to excel in creating very personal music that is easily accessible.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2012, 07:20:40 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 23, 2012, 07:09:07 AM
You won't be disappointed, John. It's a heck of a piece, sadness is quite apparent in the music, but it's controlled. Elgar always seems to excel in creating very personal music that is easily accessible.

Coincidently, a user on YouTube has uploaded the whole performance of Gibson's The Spirit of England. I listened to about 10 minutes of it. Sounded fantastic.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2012, 06:20:44 PM
Just my opinion, but I think Introduction & Allegro is one of Elgar's most gorgeous works. It doesn't seem to get mentioned a lot. I always loved Boult's performance of it on EMI, but I've been enjoying Handley's and C. Davis' lately as well.
Title: Re: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 23, 2012, 06:24:44 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 23, 2012, 07:09:07 AM
You won't be disappointed, John. It's a heck of a piece, sadness is quite apparent in the music, but it's controlled. Elgar always seems to excel in creating very personal music that is easily accessible.

I think it's a trait of (to repeat) angloiserie — the emotive power has a focus in (rather than suffering any diminution from) the control.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 24, 2012, 12:43:27 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 23, 2012, 06:20:44 PM
Just my opinion, but I think Introduction & Allegro is one of Elgar's most gorgeous works.

I agree John, an energetic and beautiful work indeed!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 24, 2012, 01:05:25 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 23, 2012, 06:20:44 PM
Just my opinion, but I think Introduction & Allegro is one of Elgar's most gorgeous works. It doesn't seem to get mentioned a lot. I always loved Boult's performance of it on EMI, but I've been enjoying Handley's and C. Davis' lately as well.

When I was in my teens I used to go out into the Derbyshire hills, find myself a lonely spot from which I could see no sign of man's interference - just hills and sky - and sit quietly with the Introduction & Allegro unfolding in my imagination (no portable stereo back then). It's surely one of Elgar's greatest works - I wonder if it gets mentioned less often simply because of the iconic status it acquired after Ken Russell's famous film about Elgar. It almost became the Elgar theme tune after that. I know of no other piece of music that seems to fit so well as an accompaniment to the characteristic English landscape: green valleys and rolling hills with just a hint of bleak wildness about them. (All the more curious, since Elgar based it around a theme he'd heard emanating from a Welsh chapel!)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 24, 2012, 07:32:49 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 24, 2012, 01:05:25 AM
When I was in my teens I used to go out into the Derbyshire hills, find myself a lonely spot from which I could see no sign of man's interference - just hills and sky - and sit quietly with the Introduction & Allegro unfolding in my imagination (no portable stereo back then). It's surely one of Elgar's greatest works - I wonder if it gets mentioned less often simply because of the iconic status it acquired after Ken Russell's famous film about Elgar. It almost became the Elgar theme tune after that. I know of no other piece of music that seems to fit so well as an accompaniment to the characteristic English landscape: green valleys and rolling hills with just a hint of bleak wildness about them. (All the more curious, since Elgar based it around a theme he'd heard emanating from a Welsh chapel!)

Some nice imagery there, Alan. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 24, 2012, 07:33:18 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 24, 2012, 12:43:27 AM
I agree John, an energetic and beautiful work indeed!

:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 24, 2012, 06:18:42 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 21, 2012, 06:10:10 PM
I finally decided to just get the third Spirit of England with Felicity Lott. It may not come until sometime in January, but it will be interesting to compare this 'new' version against the other two.
[asin]B000005GSB[/asin]
Something unexpected, this arrived today. I've thrown it on and it sounds...pretty wonderful. I can see why Elgarian is less enthused with the singing - it does not have the same weightiness (best word I could come up with). But it is beautiful singing and I suspect this may characterize her portion if she sings this way throughout. There is a purity to the voice that I find appealing. The orchestra and chorus are marvellous, and hit all the right notes (so to speak). So far, I am enjoying this thoroughly. I'll wait a while to listen a few times and see if I have the same reaction over time (and once I've had some time with it).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 24, 2012, 06:49:55 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 24, 2012, 06:18:42 PM
Something unexpected, this arrived today. I've thrown it on and it sounds...pretty wonderful. I can see why Elgarian is less enthused with the singing - it does not have the same weightiness (best word I could come up with). But it is beautiful singing and I suspect this may characterize her portion if she sings this way throughout. There is a purity to the voice that I find appealing. The orchestra and chorus are marvellous, and hit all the right notes (so to speak). So far, I am enjoying this thoroughly. I'll wait a while to listen a few times and see if I have the same reaction over time (and once I've had some time with it).

Your comments have made consider this one as well. I've always enjoyed Hickox's conducting, especially in choral music.

On another note, I received A LOT of Elgar recordings I purchased many days ago. So many recordings to hear! As far as packaging goes, this Andrew Davis The Starlight Express set looks absolutely fantastic. It comes in a box, not a chubby jewel case, and has great, thick booklet that I can't wait to read through as I'm listening to the recording. The Gibson recordings all looked pretty basic as they're Chandos Select budget issues. The Elder recordings also look great. I like the off-white design of the artwork. Very cool. 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 24, 2012, 07:46:34 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 24, 2012, 06:49:55 PM
The Elder recordings also look great. I like the off-white design of the artwork. Very cool. 8)

Agreed.  :) How good is that Elder recording of Gerontius? I'm contemplating it based on some positive reviews.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 24, 2012, 07:47:46 PM
Quote from: Velimir on December 24, 2012, 07:46:34 PM
Agreed.  :) How good is that Elder recording of Gerontius? I'm contemplating it based on some positive reviews.

I received it today, but I haven't heard a note of it. I'll definitely report here once I've given it a listen.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 24, 2012, 09:24:54 PM
Added these recordings to my Elgar collection tonight:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00454TWYM.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000JBWUOE.01.L.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005O3Y0.01.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 25, 2012, 02:19:13 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 24, 2012, 06:18:42 PM
Something unexpected, this arrived today. I've thrown it on and it sounds...pretty wonderful. I can see why Elgarian is less enthused with the singing - it does not have the same weightiness (best word I could come up with). But it is beautiful singing and I suspect this may characterize her portion if she sings this way throughout. There is a purity to the voice that I find appealing. The orchestra and chorus are marvellous, and hit all the right notes (so to speak). So far, I am enjoying this thoroughly. I'll wait a while to listen a few times and see if I have the same reaction over time (and once I've had some time with it).

That's maybe it. Lott's singing may lack something compared to Cahill but solid orchestral playing makes it up.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 25, 2012, 08:38:59 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 25, 2012, 02:19:13 AM
That's maybe it. Lott's singing may lack something compared to Cahill but solid orchestral playing makes it up.

I've come to accept that every performance, unless just generally poor (out-of-tune orchestral playing, muddled up dynamics), will offer the listener a new perspective of some kind. With works like The Spirit of England, we have to take the performances we can get since it's seldom recorded.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 25, 2012, 09:31:39 AM
More Elgar this time from Haitink:

(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/XXXX__87641__11272012113259-4003.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Mcs9Pyu3L.Image._.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000B6N6GI.01.L.jpg)

All bought with Christmas money.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 25, 2012, 07:11:32 PM
I listened to The Spirit of England earlier and I thought it was a great work. I can understand why Elgarian enjoys it so much. As with any work that is new to me, I'm definitely going to have to listen to it again. Davis' new Starlight Express recording is something that I'm definitely going to be listening to very soon. I listened to a little bit of the first disc on my stereo and it sounds great. I'm going through my Gibson Elgar recordings that I bought right now.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 26, 2012, 06:31:23 PM
Just finished this one moments ago:

(http://www.signumrecords.com/products/images/products/SIGCD168-coverLo.jpg)

Really a fantastic recording. The Enigma Variations was especially well-played. The Nimrod movement was handled beautifully. One can tell that Andrew Davis loves this music with all his heart. This isn't just another performance of these works. This recording was made with a lot of care. In the South and Serenade for Strings also received superlative performances. The audio quality is top-notch. Warm, clear, and just enough resonance to give you the impression that this, indeed, was a live recording.

On another note, I watched the documentary on the Andrew Davis DVD of Enigma Variations (haven't watched the actual concert yet) and I have to say I liked it. Is it one of the most profound things I've ever seen on a composer's work? No, absolutely not, but it was enjoyable. Despite Elgarian's objections to some of the visual aspects of the documentary, I still found it satisfactory and informative. Whether one knows the history of this masterpiece or not, doesn't really matter in the end, I enjoyed the program. Andrew Davis is a very good host as well. Quite articulate and doesn't bounce about like some kind of ego-driven maniac. He's down-to-earth and approachable, which helped make the documentary enjoyable for me.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 26, 2012, 06:34:11 PM
About to re-listen to Gibson's The Spirit of England performance.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 26, 2012, 07:14:39 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 26, 2012, 06:31:23 PM
On another note, I watched the documentary on the Andrew Davis DVD of Enigma Variations (haven't watched the actual concert yet) and I have to say I liked it. Is it one of the most profound things I've ever seen on a composer's work? No, absolutely not, but it was enjoyable. Despite Elgarian's objections to some of the visual aspects of the documentary, I still found it satisfactory and informative. Whether one knows the history of this masterpiece or not, doesn't really matter in the end, I enjoyed the program. Andrew Davis is a very good host as well. Quite articulate and doesn't bounce about like some kind of ego-driven maniac. He's down-to-earth and approachable, which helped make the documentary enjoyable for me.

Cool, John. I'm interested in the documentary, sounds intriguing. And nice description of Davis, sounds similar to the first hand accounts I been told.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 26, 2012, 07:30:38 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 26, 2012, 07:14:39 PM
Cool, John. I'm interested in the documentary, sounds intriguing. And nice description of Davis, sounds similar to the first hand accounts I been told.

I believe you'll like it, Greg. It's very well handled, unlike many composer documentaries I've seen (i. e. Tony Palmer's RVW film). I'm surprised someone hasn't posted it on YouTube yet. :-\
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 26, 2012, 08:17:03 PM
Now this is interesting: apparently there's a Soviet performance of Gerontius, made in 1983 and issued on Melodiya LPs, sung in Russian and conducted by Svetlanov.

What I find particularly fascinating is the notion of the atheistic Soviet gov't subsidizing this Catholic oratorio. Does anyone know the story behind this one?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 26, 2012, 08:23:50 PM
Quote from: Velimir on December 26, 2012, 08:17:03 PM
Now this is interesting: apparently there's a Soviet performance of Gerontius, made in 1983 and issued on Melodiya LPs, sung in Russian and conducted by Svetlanov.

What I find particularly fascinating is the notion of the atheistic Soviet gov't subsidizing this Catholic oratorio. Does anyone know the story behind this one?

A Russian Gerontius? Well why not? I've heard of stranger things. :D Svetlanov is an excellent conductor, so I imagine the performance is an intense one.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 01:45:43 AM
The only Andrew Davis I have is the Third Symphony (BBC Symphony Orchestra) on NMC label.

Often I don't have the most talked about recordings on this forum but since I have quite a lot of Elgar, I have several performances of many of his works. As I have said I am not into comparing performances. Too many options just make live complex...

I have these (+ 2 performances of solo piano version) of Enigma Variations:

Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra / George Hurst / Naxos 8.553564
London Symphony Orchestra / Sir Adrian Boult / EMI
Philharmonic Orchestra / Sir John Barbirolli / EMI
Royal Albert Hall Orchestra / Edward Elgar / Naxos 8.111022
CSR Symphony Orchestra / Adrian Leaper / Naxos 8.550229
London Philharmonic Orchestra / Leonard Slatkin / RCA
Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra / Zubin Mehta / Belart (Decca)


I don't even know how to rate these! What is the best performance of these? And the worst? How to compare a historically super-interesting Elgar's own version with more recent performances with superior sound quality? I am not sure I even want to ask these questions because it takes my time from more interesting things. While I write this I can't compose my modernisized "computer music version" of Handel's "Largo" or read the books Santaclaus brought me...  ::)   

Do I really need Andrew Davies' Enigma? Most people on this planet will never hear any performance of that work. They can live their life happily in ignorance...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 01:55:08 AM
Quote from: Velimir on December 26, 2012, 08:17:03 PM
What I find particularly fascinating is the notion of the atheistic Soviet gov't subsidizing this Catholic oratorio. Does anyone know the story behind this one?

Well, I am strongly an atheist but religious content of classical music doesn't bother me at all.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 27, 2012, 02:33:10 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 26, 2012, 06:31:23 PM
Despite Elgarian's objections to some of the visual aspects of the documentary, I still found it satisfactory and informative.

'Objections' is maybe a bit strong. It was things like having the roller skater zooming about the place that I didn't much like - I found it an unnecessary distraction. But Andrew Davis is certainly a very personable presenter of the material, and those aspects are fine.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 27, 2012, 02:47:44 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 01:45:43 AM
I have these (+ 2 performances of solo piano version) of Enigma Variations:

Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra / George Hurst / Naxos 8.553564
London Symphony Orchestra / Sir Adrian Boult / EMI
Philharmonic Orchestra / Sir John Barbirolli / EMI
Royal Albert Hall Orchestra / Edward Elgar / Naxos 8.111022
CSR Symphony Orchestra / Adrian Leaper / Naxos 8.550229
London Philharmonic Orchestra / Leonard Slatkin / RCA
Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra / Zubin Mehta / Belart (Decca)


I don't even know how to rate these! What is the best performance of these? And the worst? How to compare a historically super-interesting Elgar's own version with more recent performances with superior sound quality? I am not sure I even want to ask these questions because it takes my time from more interesting things. While I write this I can't compose my modernisized "computer music version" of Handel's "Largo" or read the books Santaclaus brought me...  ::)   

Do I really need Andrew Davies' Enigma? Most people on this planet will never hear any performance of that work. They can live their life happily in ignorance...

Faced with a collection like that, I'd ask the same questions - and indeed for several decades I've been perfectly content with the recordings of Enigma that I have (including Andrew Davis). But then last year I heard Monteux for the first time - this one, on Decca Eloquence:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ypaAbv3sL._AA160_.jpg)

My earlier comments on it are here, from last October:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg666345.html#msg666345 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg666345.html#msg666345)

It knocked all my preconceptions about Enigma into a cocked hat. Monteux is so delicately responsive to Elgar's idiom, so sensitive to the shifts from one variation to another, that this immediately became my number one recommendation. Listening to Andrew Davis afterwards was a shock - it seemed to miss so many of the subtleties that Monteux finds. If you haven't heard it, I can strongly recommend giving it a go.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 03:27:19 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 27, 2012, 02:47:44 AM
But then last year I heard Monteux for the first time.

This performance seems to be done in 1971. How come does it take 40 years for an Elgarian like you to find such a "magical" performance? This is what I don't undertand about classical music. Why are the pearls hidden? If that performance really is THAT good, why aren't everybody raving about it like you are? The performance has had 40 years to gain admiration and reputation!

???

Btw, not exited about the Dvorak 7th paring...  ::)

Quote from: Elgarian on December 27, 2012, 02:47:44 AM
It knocked all my preconceptions about Enigma into a cocked hat. Monteux is so delicately responsive to Elgar's idiom, so sensitive to the shifts from one variation to another, that this immediately became my number one recommendation. Listening to Andrew Davis afterwards was a shock - it seemed to miss so many of the subtleties that Monteux finds. If you haven't heard it, I can strongly recommend giving it a go.

Thanks for this recommendation. I'll "take a note" for the future.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2012, 05:30:35 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 26, 2012, 07:30:38 PM
. . . very well handled, unlike many composer documentaries I've seen (i. e. Tony Palmer's RVW film).

Actually, I thought that very good.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2012, 05:32:07 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 03:27:19 AM
Btw, not exited about the Dvorak 7th paring...  ::)

You shouldn't be! What are they going to cut?

To pare: To remove the outer covering or skin of with a knife or similar instrument: pare apples.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2012, 05:33:50 AM
Thread duty:

To-day (and without neglecting the Shostakovich String Quartet Gala) I am revisiting (digging deeper into, really, for I've not been through the whole set yet) The Complete Electrical Recordings of Sir Edward Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 07:14:35 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 01:45:43 AM
The only Andrew Davis I have is the Third Symphony (BBC Symphony Orchestra) on NMC label.

Often I don't have the most talked about recordings on this forum but since I have quite a lot of Elgar, I have several performances of many of his works. As I have said I am not into comparing performances. Too many options just make live complex...

I have these (+ 2 performances of solo piano version) of Enigma Variations:

Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra / George Hurst / Naxos 8.553564
London Symphony Orchestra / Sir Adrian Boult / EMI
Philharmonic Orchestra / Sir John Barbirolli / EMI
Royal Albert Hall Orchestra / Edward Elgar / Naxos 8.111022
CSR Symphony Orchestra / Adrian Leaper / Naxos 8.550229
London Philharmonic Orchestra / Leonard Slatkin / RCA
Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra / Zubin Mehta / Belart (Decca)


I don't even know how to rate these! What is the best performance of these? And the worst? How to compare a historically super-interesting Elgar's own version with more recent performances with superior sound quality? I am not sure I even want to ask these questions because it takes my time from more interesting things. While I write this I can't compose my modernisized "computer music version" of Handel's "Largo" or read the books Santaclaus brought me...  ::)   

Do I really need Andrew Davies' Enigma? Most people on this planet will never hear any performance of that work. They can live their life happily in ignorance...

If you're opposed to having any more recordings of the Enigma Variations, then I don't think you need another one do you? I own many performances of this work and my opinion is the more the merrier. :) I love it that much. This newer one with Andrew Davis and the Philharmonia is worth having not only for the excellent performance of Enigma, but for In the South and Serenade for Strings. Everything is performed with great emotion from Davis. I think he's a better Elgarian than Colin Davis, but this is IMHO. Plus, you have the outstanding playing of the Philharmonia Orchestra, which are much better orchestra than Davis' earlier orchestra: the BBC Symphony Orchestra. Davis has recorded a lot of Elgar and many works two or three times, but I've never heard anything from him that wasn't inspired. I have a lot of Elgar now and have done a lot of comparing different works and I still stand behind my previous choices of conductors: Barbirolli, Boult, Andrew Davis, and Colin Davis, although Alexander Gibson is proving to be a good Elgarian as is Mark Elder.

As for your list above, how do you compare them? This isn't really a question I can answer as I don't know what you're looking for in the music, but judging from your list: Barbirolli and Boult are outstanding and two personal favorites of mine. I have not heard, or own, the Hurst, Leaper, Mehta, or Elgar's own performance. I don't like Slatkin's Elgar, but, I don't like Slatkin anyway.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 07:21:10 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 27, 2012, 02:47:44 AM
Faced with a collection like that, I'd ask the same questions - and indeed for several decades I've been perfectly content with the recordings of Enigma that I have (including Andrew Davis). But then last year I heard Monteux for the first time - this one, on Decca Eloquence:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ypaAbv3sL._AA160_.jpg)

My earlier comments on it are here, from last October:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg666345.html#msg666345 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg666345.html#msg666345)

It knocked all my preconceptions about Enigma into a cocked hat. Monteux is so delicately responsive to Elgar's idiom, so sensitive to the shifts from one variation to another, that this immediately became my number one recommendation. Listening to Andrew Davis afterwards was a shock - it seemed to miss so many of the subtleties that Monteux finds. If you haven't heard it, I can strongly recommend giving it a go.

Yes, Monteux is a fine one, but it's not the only performance that perks my ears up and touches me. Comparing Monteux and Andrew Davis is like apples and oranges. Both conductors couldn't be more different. It should be noted that Monteux is a highly detailed conductor and has recorded a lot of Impressionistic music like Debussy and Ravel. His Stravinsky Le Sacre du Printemps is also notable. His attention to the color and nuances are noteworthy and are what have made him a legend. But I wouldn't be without Andrew Davis either who always seems to play the work with nobility and really knows the work inside and out. The climaxes, the whole arch of the work, he has it down as well as any conductor before him. So I enjoy Monteux, but it's not the "to end all" performance of the Enigma.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: snyprrr on December 27, 2012, 07:26:56 AM
So, I put in that old Chandos disc of Elgar Favorites. Yes, it IS the most boring cd I have. Soliloquy was nice. I have to ask if everyone on this Thread is over 60. I HAVE TO!

I understand that Elgar plies the same "that which is irrevocably lost" territory that Myaskovsky does, but I have yet to hear the single movement that makes you all weep. I hear the Big Melody at the end of the Cello Concerto, ok, that lasts a few moments,... where is the sustained hopelessness that I'm seeking?

ok, and if  was drunk and depressed I'm sure I'd cry at Nimrod, but, where's the Barber?

Is it because Elgar is The Sound of Empire? Are all Elgar fans old RAF pilots who yearn for the good old days? How does Elgar stay at the top of the pack day in and day out, only to be knocked off occasionally by Brian?? Is this the biggest clue as to the conservatism of
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 07:41:49 AM
Sounds like to me you're just not receptive of the music snyprrr. Nobody, of course, is forcing you like his music. If you don't enjoy it, you don't enjoy it. I'm not 60 years old and I'm not an RAF pilot, so where does this leave me? Where does this leave our young Daniel (Madaboutmahler) who loves Elgar's music? You either respond to the music or you don't. You either understand the emotion of the music or you don't. It's as simple as that. Do some research. Read about the man's life. Gain some personal insight into the music instead of coming here and questioning those who love Elgar about why they love Elgar's music. Read through this thread. The most obvious answer is his music speaks to us, but all in completely different ways. If you don't understand, then that's nobody's fault but your own.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 27, 2012, 08:17:58 AM
I'm guessing snyprrr wouldn't be interested in Elgar Month this January.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2012, 08:20:20 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on December 27, 2012, 07:26:56 AM
... where is the sustained hopelessness that I'm seeking?

The District of Columbia.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 08:32:12 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 27, 2012, 08:17:58 AM
I'm guessing snyprrr wouldn't be interested in Elgar Month this January.

Yeah, probably not. :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 08:35:30 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 07:14:35 AMI have not heard, or own, the Hurst, Leaper, Mehta, or Elgar's own performance. I don't like Slatkin's Elgar, but, I don't like Slatkin anyway.

So how do you know if Monteux is better than Hurst, Leaper or Mehta? How can you sleep when Hurst could be better than Monteux? If not Hurst then perhaps Mehta? I want to sleep and thats why I don't think about this kind of things too much. Adrian Leaper's Enigma Variations was my first and still serves it's purpose even when I have bought several other (and perhaps better?) performances...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 27, 2012, 08:38:15 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 01:55:08 AM
Well, I am strongly an atheist but religious content of classical music doesn't bother me at all.

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 26, 2012, 08:23:50 PM
A Russian Gerontius? Well why not? I've heard of stranger things. :D Svetlanov is an excellent conductor, so I imagine the performance is an intense one.

Misses the point. Communists are against religion, yet they were willing to pay for a recording of religious music. Maybe it was done as some sort of Anglo-Soviet cultural exchange or other special event.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 08:45:27 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on December 27, 2012, 07:26:56 AM
So, I put in that old Chandos disc of Elgar Favorites. Yes, it IS the most boring cd I have. Soliloquy was nice. I have to ask if everyone on this Thread is over 60. I HAVE TO!

I understand that Elgar plies the same "that which is irrevocably lost" territory that Myaskovsky does, but I have yet to hear the single movement that makes you all weep. I hear the Big Melody at the end of the Cello Concerto, ok, that lasts a few moments,... where is the sustained hopelessness that I'm seeking?

ok, and if  was drunk and depressed I'm sure I'd cry at Nimrod, but, where's the Barber?

Is it because Elgar is The Sound of Empire? Are all Elgar fans old RAF pilots who yearn for the good old days? How does Elgar stay at the top of the pack day in and day out, only to be knocked off occasionally by Brian?? Is this the biggest clue as to the conservatism of

You clearly have a wrong way to approach Elgar's music(that is to enjoy it). You are doing just fine if you are trying to hate it. Your choice.

I am 41 (soon 42). I was 26 when I heard Enigma Variations on radio the first time. It was a life-changing moment for me. To me Elgar's music is among the finest ever written. I don't care if Elgar is The Sound of Empire or not. Who cares when the music is that brilliant!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 08:51:19 AM
Quote from: Velimir on December 27, 2012, 08:38:15 AMCommunists are against religion

In what way? How come is there so many stunning churches in Russia with gorgeous golden onion domes if they were so much against religion?

It was a "you can worship God if you want as long as you worship your leaders more" kind of system I think...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2012, 08:55:23 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 08:51:19 AM
In what way? How come is there so many stunning churches in Russia with gorgeous golden onion domes if they were so much against religion?

The churches were built before the Communist era.

And, yes: the Communists tore down many churches.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 09:02:24 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 08:35:30 AM
So how do you know if Monteux is better than Hurst, Leaper or Mehta? How can you sleep when Hurst could be better than Monteux? If not Hurst then perhaps Mehta? I want to sleep and thats why I don't think about this kind of things too much. Adrian Leaper's Enigma Variations was my first and still serves it's purpose even when I have bought several other (and perhaps better?) performances...

I never said nor do I know the Monteux is better than Hurst, Leaper, or Mehta. Where did you get that from? These conductors, especially Leaper never appealed to me in Elgar, so I never bought their recordings. It's not so much finding the best of the best, but rather finding performances that appeal to you. I like having many different performances of the same work, so what's wrong with that? Your criteria for judging music is much different than my own.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 09:52:43 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 27, 2012, 08:55:23 AM
The churches were built before the Communist era.

And, yes: the Communists tore down many churches.


Sure but all of them they did not destroy. Perhaps the architecture was simply too heartbreaking to be destroyed.

Anyway, I don't believe that religion was non-existing 1917-1990 in Russia.

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 09:02:24 AM
I never said nor do I know the Monteux is better than Hurst, Leaper, or Mehta. Where did you get that from? These conductors, especially Leaper never appealed to me in Elgar, so I never bought their recordings. It's not so much finding the best of the best, but rather finding performances that appeal to you. I like having many different performances of the same work, so what's wrong with that? Your criteria for judging music is much different than my own.

I don't say that. I was only telling why I do what I do. The Mehta is coupled with Maazel's Cello Concerto. For a reason I don't remember anymore I bought that disc and it's good so no harm done.

Very often a recommended CD is so expensive that I can't justify buying it while there is tons of unknown works (to me) by other composers to be explored on cheaper discs.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 27, 2012, 09:55:12 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 08:45:27 AM
I don't care if Elgar is The Sound of Empire or not. Who cares when the music is that brilliant!

I think I've said this before, but it's worth mentioning again: the "Sound of Empire" charge is unfair to Elgar and to listeners who might otherwise discover music they enjoy. The "imperial" portion of his oeuvre is very small. We don't hold it against Beethoven that he wrote Wellington's Victory or Cantata on the Elevation of Joseph II to the Imperial Dignity; we don't reject Brahms because of his bombastic Triumphlied. Elgar deserves the same consideration.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 09:52:43 AM
Anyway, I don't believe that religion was non-existing 1917-1990 in Russia.

Way to miss the point again!  :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2012, 09:57:43 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 09:52:43 AM
Sure but all of them they did not destroy. Perhaps the architecture was simply too heartbreaking to be destroyed.

Anyway, I don't believe that religion was non-existing 1917-1990 in Russia.

But you do understand that the profession of religion was virulently discouraged?

Even as late as the 1980s, if you chose to be baptised in Moscow or St Petersburg, you would be marked for closer observation by the KGB. I don't want you to labor under any fantasy that Russians could just freely practice religion in the Soviet era.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 10:00:15 AM
Quote from: Velimir on December 27, 2012, 09:55:12 AM
I think I've said this before, but it's worth mentioning again: the "Sound of Empire" charge is unfair to Elgar and to listeners who might otherwise discover music they enjoy. The "imperial" portion of his oeuvre is very small. We don't hold it against Beethoven that he wrote Wellington's Victory or Cantata on the Elevation of Joseph II to the Imperial Dignity; we don't reject Brahms because of his bombastic Triumphlied. Elgar deserves the same consideration.

I agree with you totally. What I mean is that even if it wasn't unfair to Elgar I wouldn't care.

Quote from: Velimir on December 27, 2012, 09:55:12 AMWay to miss the point again!  :D

I must be a master in missing the point then...  ::) I am done with this "religion in Russia" -subject.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 10:07:19 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 27, 2012, 09:57:43 AM
But you do understand that the profession of religion was virulently discouraged?

Even as late as the 1980s, if you chose to be baptised in Moscow or St Petersburg, you would be marked for closer observation by the KGB. I don't want you to labor under any fantasy that Russians could just freely practice religion in the Soviet era.


History isn't one of my strong points and I seem to have misundertood the position of religion in Russia. Must be those golden onion domes... ???

It continues to amaze me how much basic human rights have been oppressed in history.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 27, 2012, 10:20:24 AM
Getting back to the subject of Elgar: I went ahead and ordered that Elder Gerontius based on the really good reviews it received. This is a work I had some trouble with in the past, and I look forward to engaging with it again.

Also, just down the road from me, the Milwaukee Symphony is performing Gerontius this season, under Edo de Waart. (not till June though)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2012, 10:23:35 AM
Quote from: Velimir on December 27, 2012, 10:20:24 AM
Also, just down the road from me, the Milwaukee Symphony is performing Gerontius this season, under Edo de Waart. (not till June though)

Excellent!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 27, 2012, 10:54:52 AM
Quote from: Velimir on December 27, 2012, 09:55:12 AM
I think I've said this before, but it's worth mentioning again: the "Sound of Empire" charge is unfair to Elgar and to listeners who might otherwise discover music they enjoy. The "imperial" portion of his oeuvre is very small. We don't hold it against Beethoven that he wrote Wellington's Victory or Cantata on the Elevation of Joseph II to the Imperial Dignity; we don't reject Brahms because of his bombastic Triumphlied. Elgar deserves the same consideration.

Seems extraordinary that this needs to be said again, after all the detailed discussion in this thread, but yes, it's simply true. Thank you for saying it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 27, 2012, 11:09:45 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 03:27:19 AM
This performance seems to be done in 1971. How come does it take 40 years for an Elgarian like you to find such a "magical" performance? This is what I don't undertand about classical music. Why are the pearls hidden? If that performance really is THAT good, why aren't everybody raving about it like you are? The performance has had 40 years to gain admiration and reputation!

Well, that's a question I asked myself at the time. It's an even more remarkable phenomenon than you suggest, because it was made in 1959, not 1971. What I discovered, in fact, was that it has always been very highly regarded, but that fact simply escaped my attention all these years - mainly, I think, because I felt that I didn't need any more recordings of the Enigma Variations.

I stumbled across it at a time when I was taking a particular interest in Enigma, and clearly something 'clicked' in a very special way: it must have matched what I was looking for particularly well. It may be that if I'd listened to it 20 years earlier it may not have made the same impact. After all, I've been listening to Enigma for about 50 years, now. It would be surprising if my taste hadn't developed in that time. The main point I'm making, though, is that the whole thing was completely unexpected. I was, up till then, perfectly content with the recordings I had already.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 11:30:11 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 27, 2012, 10:54:52 AM
Seems extraordinary that this needs to be said again, after all the detailed discussion in this thread, but yes, it's simply true. Thank you for saying it.

Yeah, it does. Very well said, Velimir. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 11:52:16 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 27, 2012, 11:09:45 AM
It's an even more remarkable phenomenon than you suggest, because it was made in 1959, not 1971.

Oh, my mistake. Is it mono or stereo?

Quote from: Elgarian on December 27, 2012, 11:09:45 AMWhat I discovered, in fact, was that it has always been very highly regarded, but that fact simply escaped my attention all these years - mainly, I think, because I felt that I didn't need any more recordings of the Enigma Variations.

Before coming to this forum I didn't have a clue which performances are highly regarded and which ones aren't. This forum has made me aware of the vast differences. I started my music listening with electronic dance music were there is "one version" plus remixes (but only one version of each remix). Having 30 performances of a work was confusing when I found classical music in mid 90's. When I started building my classical music collection my guideline was: Naxos if Naxos has it. If not then a label that has it. I didn't really care about performers. I was into composers, not performers. In fact I hate seeing a picture of the conductor as cover art.

Believe, I have tried to "find out using internet what is the best version" just to realise such practise drives me crazy with all the contradictory information and subjectivity. I bought Cahill's "Spirit" out of your recommendation but it hasn't blown my mind compared to Lott. I don't know whether this action was meaningful or not. People are often lost about what really matters. This forum makes me very confused sometimes...


Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2012, 11:54:02 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 27, 2012, 10:54:52 AM
Seems extraordinary that this needs to be said again, after all the detailed discussion in this thread, but yes, it's simply true. Thank you for saying it.

Well, normally it would not need saying again, for as you point out, Alan, we've been around that block before.

But this is snypsss . . . it isn't as if he read first, and then piped in
; )

I think I need to spend a quiet evening with the Gerontius and Music Makers excerpts in the Elgar's Own electrical recordings box.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 11:57:29 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 27, 2012, 11:54:02 AMI think I need to spend a quiet evening with the Gerontius and Music Makers excerpts in the Elgar's Own electrical recordings box.

So much for Schnittke's Peer Gynt. :(
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2012, 12:21:49 PM
I didn't say that I need do that before Schnittke : )
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 12:46:48 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 27, 2012, 12:21:49 PM
I didn't say that I need do that before Schnittke : )

That's true. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 27, 2012, 01:54:17 PM
I just listened to Pierre Monteux's Enigma Variations on Spotify. I listened with headphones using crossfeed at level -6 dB below 800 Hz.

Performance: Yes, this is a solid take on this Elgar work. I have nothing to complain. I found the beginning of Theme (Andante) a bit fast but nothing serious. Mostly the tempi are good imo. Ysobel (Andantino) is impressive.

Audio Quality: The sound is actually quite good for the age of the recording. Some colourisation as expected. Background noise was pretty high and annoying during quiet parts like the beginning of Nimrod, which really benefits from modern digital technology. The stereo sound image was very good. The microphones have been in good places. The sound was a bit bass-heavy but I think everything on Spotify sounds like that somehow. The Finale ends with harsh distortion indicating clipping of the signal.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 02:11:53 PM
You should definitely hear Andrew Davis' new Enigma recording with the Philharmonia. It's quite simply superb in all respects. Of course, Davis is no stranger to Elgar and conducts with a sense of pride, admiration, and love for the music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 05:14:58 PM
I've got to say that I'm not too impressed with Elder's performances. I listened to The Dream of Gerontius this afternoon and didn't think much of it to be honest. It just wasn't powerful enough and it needed more drive from Elder and the Halle. So the search continues, I may pick Hickox and Barbirolli at some point. I also didn't think much of Elder's performances of the Enigma Variations, although the performances of Serenade for Strings and Cockaigne Overture were well done. I've got Elder's performance of The Kingdom on the way, so hopefully this will be a good performance. If not, then I'll definitely be picking up Hickox's.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 05:56:48 PM
My goodness I've just got to say that Andrew Davis' performance of In the South with the Philharmonia Orchestra may very well be the best performance I've heard of this work. Davis paces everything just right to my ears. The central viola solo never sounded better. Beautifully rendered.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 06:32:04 PM
Does anybody know the story behind In the South?

The subtitle "Alassio" is a town on the Italian Riviera where Elgar and his family stayed. He strolled around during the visit, while buildings, landscape and history of the town provided him the sources of inspiration. He later recalled:

"Then in a flash, it all came to me - streams, flowers, hills; the distant snow mountains in one direction and the blue Mediterranean in the other; the conflict of the armies on that very spot long ago, where I now stood - the contrast of the ruin and the shepherd - and then, all of a sudden, I came back to reality. In that time I had composed the overture - the rest was merely writing it down."

[Taken from Wikipedia]

Quite extraordinary how he wrote the whole work in his mind. This man was brilliant.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 28, 2012, 02:31:44 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 02:11:53 PM
You should definitely hear Andrew Davis' new Enigma recording with the Philharmonia. It's quite simply superb in all respects. Of course, Davis is no stranger to Elgar and conducts with a sense of pride, admiration, and love for the music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 05:56:48 PM
My goodness I've just got to say that Andrew Davis' performance of In the South with the Philharmonia Orchestra may very well be the best performance I've heard of this work. Davis paces everything just right to my ears. The central viola solo never sounded better. Beautifully rendered.

Looks like there is a reason to explore Andrew Davis' Elgar (I only have 3rd Symphony with BBC Symph. Orch.)
Recently I have gone over my budget with all the Tangerine Dream concert DVDs and Herbie Hancock's funk jazz that I need to take it slow...
...I'm also upgrading my DVD movie collection to Blu-ray so even Elgar (and A. Davis) needs to wait patiently!

I listened to the Monteux Enigma on Spotify so I am not completely ignorant, am I? Sometimes it is hard to live up to people's expectations online!  ???

Talking about In the South, I have these:

Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra / George Hurst / Naxos 8.553564
London Philharmonic Orchestra / Sir Adrian Boult / EMI
London Philharmonic Orchestra / Leonard Slatkin / RCA
BBC Symphonic Orchestra / Leonard Slatkin / BBC Music
Scottish National Orchestra / Sir Alexander Gidson / Chandos CHAN 6652

I think I'll listen to Hurst now.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 28, 2012, 03:34:06 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 28, 2012, 02:31:44 AM
I listened to the Monteux Enigma on Spotify so I am not completely ignorant, am I? Sometimes it is hard to live up to people's expectations online!  ???

I'd just like to suggest that this isn't a competition. Actually it's extremely difficult to make a one-size-fits-all recommendation for any work, not least because we've all been on different journeys to get to this point here and now. All we can do is report on what we find in case it's of help to anyone else. No one is going to go far wrong with any of the recordings of Enigma by Davis, Barbirolli, etc; you're surely right to say that the work is the important thing, not the conductor.

But when it's a piece of music that I know extremely well (I must have listened to Enigma at least 100 times during my life, and read a good deal about it too) it can be helpful to hear a performance that is radically different to what I've been accustomed to. That's what Monteux did for me. I thought I'd got to the bottom of it; but Monteux, with his delicate and detailed, almost chamber-like approach, showed me that I hadn't. I think I mentioned in an earlier post that his recording was the first one that enabled me to hear Winifred Norbury's characteristic laugh in a truly convincing way, almost as if she were present. That's the kind of difference I'm talking about; and while such differences are important to me, they simply may not be so for others.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 28, 2012, 03:45:00 AM
What a pleasure to read this post of your'n this fine, crisp Boston morning, Alan. I thank 'ee!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 28, 2012, 06:53:32 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 28, 2012, 02:31:44 AM
Looks like there is a reason to explore Andrew Davis' Elgar (I only have 3rd Symphony with BBC Symph. Orch.)

Talking about In the South, I have these:

Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra / George Hurst / Naxos 8.553564
London Philharmonic Orchestra / Sir Adrian Boult / EMI
London Philharmonic Orchestra / Leonard Slatkin / RCA
BBC Symphonic Orchestra / Leonard Slatkin / BBC Music
Scottish National Orchestra / Sir Alexander Gidson / Chandos CHAN 6652

I think I'll listen to Hurst now.  :)

In my view, there's more of a reason to discover Andrew Davis' recordings than Leonard Slatkin's. I think Slatkin is overrated on this forum. People say "Slatkin, Slatkin," and I answer "No, no." :) He's not a horrible conductor, but he's not a great one either. His Elgar is no different than his RVW or even the Stravinsky I've heard from him. I think he does well in American music though and this is definitely one of his strengths, but in Elgar he's no match for A. and C. Davis, Boult, Barbirolli, or even Handley. These conductors truly have Elgar's sound-world in their blood. But all of this is just my opinion.

In the South is an incredible work, isn't it? I've heard this work so many times over the past years, but never has sounded better than it does to me now. That Andrew Davis/Philharmonia performance really made quite an impression on me. I can't say any other performance has done this for me.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 28, 2012, 09:06:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 28, 2012, 06:53:32 AM
In my view, there's more of a reason to discover Andrew Davis' recordings than Leonard Slatkin's. I think Slatkin is overrated on this forum. People say "Slatkin, Slatkin," and I answer "No, no." :) He's not a horrible conductor, but he's not a great one either. His Elgar is no different than his RVW or even the Stravinsky I've heard from him. I think he does well in American music though and this is definitely one of his strengths, but in Elgar he's no match for A. and C. Davis, Boult, Barbirolli, or even Handley. These conductors truly have Elgar's sound-world in their blood. But all of this is just my opinion.

In the South is an incredible work, isn't it? I've heard this work so many times over the past years, but never has sounded better than it does to me now. That Andrew Davis/Philharmonia performance really made quite an impression on me. I can't say any other performance has done this for me.

Slatkin's 4 CD Elgar Box on RCA is highly regarded in ClassicToday. That's why I bought it (it was also cheap). Is it my fault if ClassicTodays reviews are crap? Personally I find the performances of that boxset pretty good, but then again I haven't heard much A. Davis...

In the South is Elgar's best overture and that says a lot since Cockaigne is also brilliant. Froissart is significantly weaker than the other two overtures, almost an excercise on orchestral writing compared to Elgar's later works.
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 28, 2012, 10:48:26 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 28, 2012, 09:06:31 AM
Slatkin's 4 CD Elgar Box on RCA is highly regarded in ClassicToday. That's why I bought it (it was also cheap). Is it my fault if ClassicTodays reviews are crap? Personally I find the performances of that boxset pretty good, but then again I haven't heard much A. Davis...


I give high marks to Slatkin's Elgar symphonies and In The South recordings. I've also seen positive write-ups about them in Gramophone, Musicweb-international and Classics Today. Don't feel at fault for enjoying good performances even from crap reviews. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2012, 11:29:59 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 28, 2012, 09:06:31 AM
Slatkin's 4 CD Elgar Box on RCA is highly regarded in ClassicToday. Personally I find the performances of that boxset pretty good....

Which you should...because they are good. Slatkin's a fine Elgar (and VW) conductor. And it's always a pleasure hearing non-Brits in this music. MI posts a lot...and he posts a lot of nonsense. Don't take him too seriously  :)

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 28, 2012, 11:36:02 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2012, 11:29:59 AM
Which you should...because they are good. Slatkin's a fine Elgar (and VW) conductor. And it's always a pleasure hearing non-Brits in this music. MI posts a lot...and he posts a lot of nonsense. Don't take him too seriously  :)

Thanks for the parenthesis, Sarge . . . I've now wish-listed the Slatkin RVW box . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 28, 2012, 12:41:58 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 27, 2012, 05:14:58 PM
I've got to say that I'm not too impressed with Elder's performances. I listened to The Dream of Gerontius this afternoon and didn't think much of it to be honest. It just wasn't powerful enough and it needed more drive from Elder and the Halle. So the search continues, I may pick Hickox and Barbirolli at some point. I also didn't think much of Elder's performances of the Enigma Variations, although the performances of Serenade for Strings and Cockaigne Overture were well done. I've got Elder's performance of The Kingdom on the way, so hopefully this will be a good performance. If not, then I'll definitely be picking up Hickox's.

Sorry to hear of your lack of enjoyment for Elder's Elgar, John. Please, before giving up on him, listen to this disc:
[asin]B001HY3B0O[/asin]

The performances of both Falstaff and the Cello Concerto are absolutely outstanding, IMHO.

I agree with everything you're saying about Alassio, it's would be in my top 5 Elgar - alongside the two symphonies, the String Serenade and the Cello Concerto. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on December 28, 2012, 01:22:24 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 28, 2012, 12:41:58 PM
I agree with everything you're saying about Alassio, it's would be in my top 5 Elgar - alongside the two symphonies, the String Serenade and the Cello Concerto. :)
Interesting to read this - I only know a small number of Elgar's compositions, but the concertos and Alassio are definitely great pieces, and favourites for me.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 28, 2012, 02:14:17 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 28, 2012, 09:06:31 AM
Slatkin's 4 CD Elgar Box on RCA is highly regarded in ClassicToday. That's why I bought it (it was also cheap). Is it my fault if ClassicTodays reviews are crap? Personally I find the performances of that boxset pretty good, but then again I haven't heard much A. Davis...

I'd like to add my contribution to those already made here: I have Slatkin's box too, and whilst he wouldn't be my first choice, the performances are by no means poor. One of my tests for an Elgar conductor (and I realise that I'm out on a limb here) is a simple one: can his recordings survive being listened to in the midst of Elgar country - the very source of the inspiration for so much of his music? I've had a lot of opportunities for experimenting along these lines. Andrew Davis's box certainly passes that test, despite some mutterings among reviewers about the unevenness of the performances. So does Slatkin's box. I can't see any sensible reason why you or I shouldn't enjoy those Slatkin performances, and if what we're writing here about other conductors makes you feel they may be inadequate, then I think we're doing you a disservice.

Usually the issue here concerns distinguishing not between good and bad recordings (I don't think I know any actually bad Elgar recordings), but between types of excellence. We sometimes lose sight of that, I think.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 28, 2012, 06:57:33 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 28, 2012, 09:06:31 AM
Slatkin's 4 CD Elgar Box on RCA is highly regarded in ClassicToday. That's why I bought it (it was also cheap). Is it my fault if ClassicTodays reviews are crap? Personally I find the performances of that boxset pretty good, but then again I haven't heard much A. Davis...

In the South is Elgar's best overture and that says a lot since Cockaigne is also brilliant. Froissart is significantly weaker than the other two overtures, almost an excercise on orchestral writing compared to Elgar's later works.

It didn't take long for the 'Slatkin Brigade" to make their way onto the thread. :) Anyway, I pretty much ignore ClassicsToday and most other reviewers. If I believe the performance will be good then I'm going to take a chance on it. Before I buy a recording, I have to look at the conductor's history and look into my collection to see if there are any weak links in the given conductor's recordings. Unfortunately, there's a lot of weak performances in Slatkin's discography. I think he's overhyped on GMG. What the rest of the classical world thinks of Slatkin? I don't know. All I know is that he's done absolutely nothing for me. All in my opinion of course.

In the South is a phenomenal piece of music. I don't give a damn what anybody else says. It's a masterpiece not only of symphonic writing (the orchestration is unbelievable), but of being able to convey so many good musical ideas into a 20 minute span. Such an incredible composer.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 28, 2012, 07:01:22 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 28, 2012, 12:41:58 PM
Sorry to hear of your lack of enjoyment for Elder's Elgar, John. Please, before giving up on him, listen to this disc:
[asin]B001HY3B0O[/asin]

The performances of both Falstaff and the Cello Concerto are absolutely outstanding, IMHO.

I agree with everything you're saying about Alassio, it's would be in my top 5 Elgar - alongside the two symphonies, the String Serenade and the Cello Concerto. :)

No doubt, Daniel. I haven't given up on Elder. I just haven't been convinced of his way with Elgar yet. Only time will tell.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 29, 2012, 02:27:39 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 28, 2012, 06:57:33 PM
It didn't take long for the 'Slatkin Brigade" to make their way onto the thread.

Ah yes, the Slatkin Brigade. They cause nearly as much trouble as the Henning Gang.

[New Year's Resolution: work harder at trying to dislike my Slatkin box of Elgar.]
Title: Re: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 29, 2012, 04:20:32 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 29, 2012, 02:27:39 AM
Ah yes, the Slatkin Brigade. They cause nearly as much trouble as the Henning Gang.

Never! And if that is the rumor, then we've work to do, lads.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 29, 2012, 06:33:37 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 29, 2012, 02:27:39 AM[New Year's Resolution: work harder at trying to dislike my Slatkin box of Elgar.]

It's not hard for me to dislike Slatkin's Elgar recordings. One whiff of his mediocrity is all I needed. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on December 29, 2012, 07:05:32 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 29, 2012, 02:27:39 AM
Ah yes, the Slatkin Brigade. They cause nearly as much trouble as the Henning Gang.

Better known as Henning's Hoodlums!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on December 29, 2012, 09:12:57 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 29, 2012, 07:05:32 AM
Better known as Henning's Hoodlums!

Indeed. And as we know, no old lady's handbag is safe when they're around, Brian. Why, what with them, the Slatkin Sluggers, and the Mediocrity Molesters all at large, I don't think I'd want to be out wandering the threads of GMG on a dark night.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 31, 2012, 09:27:57 AM
Getting back on topic, what are your opinions of Falstaff? I really need to sit down and study this work more. I own a lot of performances of it. Any favorites?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 31, 2012, 02:01:39 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 31, 2012, 09:27:57 AM
Getting back on topic, what are your opinions of Falstaff? I really need to sit down and study this work more. I own a lot of performances of it. Any favorites?

My reaction is complex. One the one hand, I think the musical material is really good. Somewhere above I said that one of Elgar's most characteristic styles is the clash between swaggering confidence and underlying unease. Falstaff personalizes this in an interesting way (viz. the opening contrast of the Falstaff and Prince Hal themes). Conceptually, the piece is very close to Strauss' Don Quixote, both in its episodic nature and in depicting a clash of personalities.

On the other hand, I have my usually "tone poem problem," i.e. it's somewhat hard for me to relax and just enjoy it as music, since the whole piece is constructed to depict certain episodes from Shakespeare's Henry plays. Perhaps I too need to "sit down and study this work more."
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 31, 2012, 04:15:22 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 31, 2012, 09:27:57 AM
Getting back on topic, what are your opinions of Falstaff? I really need to sit down and study this work more. I own a lot of performances of it. Any favorites?

A brilliant work, which I enjoy very much! And responding to your last question: ELDER! :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 31, 2012, 05:48:24 PM
Quote from: Velimir on December 31, 2012, 02:01:39 PM
My reaction is complex. One the one hand, I think the musical material is really good. Somewhere above I said that one of Elgar's most characteristic styles is the clash between swaggering confidence and underlying unease. Falstaff personalizes this in an interesting way (viz. the opening contrast of the Falstaff and Prince Hal themes). Conceptually, the piece is very close to Strauss' Don Quixote, both in its episodic nature and in depicting a clash of personalities.

On the other hand, I have my usually "tone poem problem," i.e. it's somewhat hard for me to relax and just enjoy it as music, since the whole piece is constructed to depict certain episodes from Shakespeare's Henry plays. Perhaps I too need to "sit down and study this work more."

Hopefully, I'll gain a better understanding of it over the next three days I'm off from work. Right now, I'm stuck on In the South and enjoying every minute of it! Falstaff I plan to approach as a piece of music and not as music that depicts something. That's the composer's intent, but what the composer intended isn't always what the listener hears, which is why the musical reaction and study of will always be a subjective matter.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 31, 2012, 05:51:08 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 31, 2012, 04:15:22 PM
A brilliant work, which I enjoy very much! And responding to your last question: ELDER! :D

I'll definitely listen to Elder's, Daniel. But Barbirolli is looming large over my head right now as is Andrew Davis' on Warner.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 01, 2013, 01:46:23 AM
I don't have anything to contribute to the Falstaff debate, but I did listen to Slatkin's recording of the 1st symphony yesterday. It's been quite a long time since I last listened to it, and I must say I was surprised by how fine it is. The 1st symphony - to put this in context - is my favourite symphony of all symphonies. There's something about it that clicked firmly into place for me when I first heard it 50 years ago, and has remained in place ever since. I suppose, as with Enigma, I must have listened to it 100 times over the years - maybe more.

From the very start Slatkin is completely persuasive, establishing the nobilmente mood with  conviction, and - here's the rub - at no time do I find myself wishing I were listening to some other recording of this symphony. I'm perfectly content to be led through his interpretation, and all the key bits - the bits I most love - are handled with wonderful sensitivity. I think for example of Elgar's strictures when he was once conducting it, to 'play this like something you might hear down by the river'. Well, Slatkin has got that message very well - those characteristic Elgar pastoralisms are all there, interwoven through the music, and particularly in the slow movement. And the all important passage in the last movement, where the military march is transformed into a lovely, flowing melody - well, he completely nails that; and from there to the unabashedly optimistic finale there's no looking back.

So I emerged from this experience thoroughly delighted with what I'd heard. This is a finer recording of the 1st symphony than I remembered it to be, and one about which no apologies need to be made.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 01, 2013, 08:15:14 AM
Happy new year, Alan!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 08:16:43 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 01, 2013, 01:46:23 AM
I don't have anything to contribute to the Falstaff debate

The Falstaff conversation is certainly not a debate. I was more or less asking some questions about it: what do you think of the work? Do you have any favorite performances? Not at all hard to answer, but you calling yourself 'Elgarian,' I figured you'd have more to add other than saying: "I don't have anything to contribute."
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 01, 2013, 08:45:13 AM
John, I find much to enjoy in Falstaff. It may not be as complete-sounding as say his symphonies, but its filled with colorful and dynamic textures, makes me wish Elgar had explored more in the tone poem genre. I'm quite fond of Lloyd-Jones on Naxos and Rattle on EMI. I know your thoughts on Rattle's abilities with Elgar, but the music is perfectly displayed, the CBSO really shines.

[asin]B00000I7RA[/asin]
[asin]B000002RTS[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 09:15:51 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 01, 2013, 08:45:13 AM
John, I find much to enjoy in Falstaff. It may not be as complete-sounding as say his symphonies, but its filled with colorful and dynamic textures, makes me wish Elgar had explored more in the tone poem genre. I'm quite fond of Lloyd-Jones on Naxos and Rattle on EMI. I know your thoughts on Rattle's abilities with Elgar, but the music is perfectly displayed, the CBSO really shines.

[asin]B00000I7RA[/asin]
[asin]B000002RTS[/asin]

Thanks, Greg. Maybe I've been too hard on Rattle. I'll check out that recording of Lloyd-Jones too.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 01, 2013, 10:23:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 01, 2013, 08:15:14 AM
Happy new year, Alan!

Happy New Year to you too Karl.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 10:26:59 AM
In spite of my dismissal of Slatkin, I plan on getting this box set out and taking it for a spin...

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0001TSWP0.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)

Will definitely listen to the symphonies and work my through the other orchestral works in the set. One of the biggest problems I have had with Slatkin is the recording quality of many of his performances. They're recorded at a low-level, so you have to crank up your amp to hear the more subdued quieter parts, then when the louder parts come charging through you have to adjust your volume. Two words that can sum up his recordings: volume adjustment.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 01, 2013, 11:00:56 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 08:16:43 AM
The Falstaff conversation is certainly not a debate. I was more or less asking some questions about it: what do you think of the work? Do you have any favorite performances? Not at all hard to answer, but you calling yourself 'Elgarian,' I figured you'd have more to add other than saying: "I don't have anything to contribute."

I've nothing to contribute to the debate/discussion/conversation/question-and-answer-session because Falstaff isn't a favourite work of mine and I don't feel much inclined to discuss it (especially having been in bed with a temperature for most of the last week, so I want the easy road, not the hard one). I've no difficulty in believing that it's a great piece of music, but for some reason - which I've never understood - I don't warm to it. It's a bit like listening to a conversation which I know is taking place at a high level, but which is about a topic that doesn't catch my interest. That sort of thing.

Since I'm clearly missing something important, I don't believe my opinions on the work, or on recordings of it, would be of any value to anyone. To find the most helpful recommendations of recordings, you need them from people who love the work (and there are plenty of those here), not from someone who's largely indifferent to it. Yes, even if that person has the audacity to call himself 'Elgarian'.

So after all you have elicited an unwilling response from me about Falstaff, albeit a totally vacuous one. But it's the first day of 2013 and I forgive you. Karl's opinion, or Sarge's, will be a much better bet than mine.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 11:07:53 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 01, 2013, 11:00:56 AM
I've nothing to contribute to the debate/discussion/conversation/question-and-answer-session because Falstaff isn't a favourite work of mine and I don't feel much inclined to discuss it (especially having been in bed with a temperature for most of the last week, so I want the easy road, not the hard one). I've no difficulty in believing that it's a great piece of music, but for some reason - which I've never understood - I don't warm to it. It's a bit like listening to a conversation which I know is taking place at a high level, but which is about a topic that doesn't catch my interest. That sort of thing.

Since I'm clearly missing something important, I don't believe my opinions on the work, or on recordings of it, would be of any value to anyone. To find the most helpful recommendations of recordings, you need them from people who love the work (and there are plenty of those here), not from someone who's largely indifferent to it. Yes, even if that person has the audacity to call himself 'Elgarian'.

So after all you have elicited an unwilling response from me about Falstaff, albeit a totally vacuous one. But it's the first day of 2013 and I forgive you. Karl's opinion, or Sarge's, will be a much better bet than mine.

I understand, Elgarian. Sorry to imply that just because you use this screen name you should know and love all of Elgar's music. That's humanly impossible. There are many works by Elgar I don't like  --- the Pomp & Circumstance Marches, The Dream of Gerontius, The Black Knight, and Scene From The Bavarian Highlands. All of these works do nothing for me. I also didn't think much of his music that has narration, but, then again, I never been fond of narration in music anyway, which is why I prefer The Starlight Express Suite to the full blown work. Anyway, we enjoy what we enjoy, and there's no harm or foul in that, after all, what's the point of listening to music that doesn't engage us?

FYI, I do REALLY enjoy The Spirit of England. Next to Sea Pictures, my favorite vocal work of Elgar's.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 01, 2013, 11:23:14 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 11:07:53 AM
FYI, I do REALLY enjoy The Spirit of England. Next to Sea Pictures, my favorite vocal work of Elgar's.

Well that's excellent news. I think it should be an automatic inclusion within the list of accepted Elgar masterpieces, but it's surprisingly neglected. Let us continue to carry the word on!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 11:43:02 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 01, 2013, 11:23:14 AM
Well that's excellent news. I think it should be an automatic inclusion within the list of accepted Elgar masterpieces, but it's surprisingly neglected. Let us continue to carry the word on!

The work touched me just within the opening measures. I was hooked. Gibson and co. really nailed this performance I think. Are there any other performances of The Spirit of England that you enjoy? I know Hickox and Lloyd-Jones performed the work, but would be interested to get your opinion on those (if you have heard them).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 01, 2013, 12:11:07 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 11:43:02 AM
The work touched me just within the opening measures. I was hooked. Gibson and co. really nailed this performance I think. Are there any other performances of The Spirit of England that you enjoy? I know Hickox and Lloyd-Jones performed the work, but would be interested to get your opinion on those (if you have heard them).

Yes, I have all those. This is one of those situations where the differences between recordings really counts for something. Hickox/Lott is fine, very musical; but Lott's singing, for all its perfection, doesn't ignite the words. She sings them as musical notes, and very beautifully, but it comes over to me as unemotional. Now I can understand how some people might prefer this rather cooler, more reserved approach in the soprano - you may find it so, yourself. But it's not what I'm looking for.

Lloyd-Jones/Gritton is yet again very different, primarily because the version presented includes one of the movements sung by tenor instead of soprano. Call me narrow if you will, but I can't cope with that. Karl liked it though - I remember he said so somewhere in this thread a while back.

Horses for courses, then. I make no secret of my personal unbounded admiration of Gibson/Cahill, which I can't help believing comes very close to expressing what Elgar had in mind and heart. It comes over as a great musical drama, and was responsible for one of those great transcendent personal musical life-events when I first heard it. The other two recordings are so very different that it's worth hearing them just to see how the different approaches come off.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 12:23:27 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 01, 2013, 12:11:07 PM
Yes, I have all those. This is one of those situations where the differences between recordings really counts for something. Hickox/Lott is fine, very musical; but Lott's singing, for all its perfection, doesn't ignite the words. She sings them as musical notes, and very beautifully, but it comes over to me as unemotional. Now I can understand how some people might prefer this rather cooler, more reserved approach in the soprano - you may find it so, yourself. But it's not what I'm looking for.

Lloyd-Jones/Gritton is yet again very different, primarily because the version presented includes one of the movements sung by tenor instead of soprano. Call me narrow if you will, but I can't cope with that. Karl liked it though - I remember he said so somewhere in this thread a while back.

Horses for courses, then. I make no secret of my personal unbounded admiration of Gibson/Cahill, which I can't help believing comes very close to expressing what Elgar had in mind and heart. It comes over as a great musical drama, and was responsible for one of those great transcendent personal musical life-events when I first heard it. The other two recordings are so very different that it's worth hearing them just to see how the different approaches come off.

Many thanks for your feedback. Now, moving onto the Violin Concerto, do you enjoy the work? If yes, do you have a favorite performance? Have you heard Tasmin Little's newest recording? I just bought it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 01, 2013, 12:47:18 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 12:23:27 PM
Many thanks for your feedback. Now, moving onto the Violin Concerto, do you enjoy the work? If yes, do you have a favorite performance? Have you heard Tasmin Little's newest recording? I just bought it.

The violin concerto has been a lifelong source of discovery for me. It would rank in my personal top five favourite pieces of classical music, and I have more versions of it than of any other piece of music. At times I think it may give more insight into Elgar's musical character than any other. It rewards the acquisition of a detailed knowledge of Elgar's biography, his attitude to the feminine, and in particular his relationship with Alice Stuart-Wortley - his 'Windflower'. It's one of those situations where the art and the life run parallel to each other in illuminating ways. My avatar is based on the two 'Windflower' themes of the violin concerto, by the way.

Tasmin Little's is lovely - warm, mature, and deeply considered. No trace of flashy bravado, which is just how it should be. My personal favourite has long been Hugh Bean/Groves:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

But I've already said far too much about the Elgar VC here at GMG. If you look back through this thread you'll find an enormous amount of discussion of the VC, and recordings thereof - including The Great Hugh Bean Controversy.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 01:05:36 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 01, 2013, 12:47:18 PM
The violin concerto has been a lifelong source of discovery for me. It would rank in my personal top five favourite pieces of classical music, and I have more versions of it than of any other piece of music. At times I think it may give more insight into Elgar's musical character than any other. It rewards the acquisition of a detailed knowledge of Elgar's biography, his attitude to the feminine, and in particular his relationship with Alice Stuart-Wortley - his 'Windflower'. It's one of those situations where the art and the life run parallel to each other in illuminating ways. My avatar is based on the two 'Windflower' themes of the violin concerto, by the way.

Tasmin Little's is lovely - warm, mature, and deeply considered. No trace of flashy bravado, which is just how it should be. My personal favourite has long been Hugh Bean/Groves:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

But I've already said far too much about the Elgar VC here at GMG. If you look back through this thread you'll find an enormous amount of discussion of the VC, and recordings thereof - including The Great Hugh Bean Controversy.

Your feedback is much appreciated. There have been many recent recordings of Elgar's VC. It's good to see this work get more recognition. I have not heard the Hugh Bean performance, but I'll definitely check it out.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 07:30:29 PM
Finally got around to checking out that Hugh Bean/Boult performance and that disc is OOP and too expensive. I'll definitely pass. Of the recent performances I've heard of this work, Znaider/C. Davis sounds really good, but I don't know if this performance has really won me over yet. Znaider's playing is good but there's some disconnect in this performance somewhere. I don't know if it's between Znaider or Davis or where exactly I'm hearing it, but I don't feel this performance yet. Kennedy/Handley remains my favorite at the moment. Don't care much for Kennedy's second performance with Rattle. Given Rattle's track record with British music, I simply can't take him that seriously nor do I feel his heart is in the music. His Britten is quite fine though. I thought the Hahn/C. Davis was too polished and Hahn's tone just wasn't up to par (I've never found her tone that appealing). I look forward to hearing the Tasmin Little/A. Davis recording. Speaking of the VC, what does everyone think about Shaham/Zinman? Positive/negative reactions?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 07:54:52 PM
I'm starting to make some headway on Falstaff. This is still a difficult work to decipher IMHO. I do like a lot of the rhythms Elgar used throughout. The orchestration, as usual, is outstanding. But all of this said, it just doesn't pound me over the head like In the South. I do realize this work is going for a completely different kind of expression. The two sides of Elgar are in constant battle in Falstaff, but there are no winners. The more subdued, lyrical side is interrupted by the violent side. How it all pieces together as whole is what I'm trying to figure out. Let's forget about outside inspirations and what the work is trying to depict, the question is does Falstaff stand on it's own? Is the musical argument a convincing one? Still, these are questions I'm struggling with at the moment.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 03:16:06 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 07:30:29 PM
Finally got around to checking out that Hugh Bean/Boult performance and that disc is OOP and too expensive. I'll definitely pass.

I just checked, and yes, I see what you mean. It's a tragedy that this 2CD set has been allowed to drift out of print. There was quite a big run on copies of it when we had our last big discussion here a couple of years ago. One thing that might just be worth a shot is for sale here - a single disc manifestation of the same recording, offered by Zoverstocks:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Works-for-Violin/dp/B000057A87/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1357126602&sr=1-3 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Works-for-Violin/dp/B000057A87/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1357126602&sr=1-3)

It's Amazon UK marketplace so there'd be extra postage for you to pay, but this may be the last chance saloon and it might be worth the risk.

Still, the good news is that there are so many fine recordings of the Elgar VC that you can hardly go wrong. The only recording I've found seriously lacking is Hilary Hahn's - hers comes over as flimsy, somehow, and she seems to completely miss the desolation, near-death experience of the cadenza. You could do worse than try Menuhin's legendary recording, with Elgar himself conducting.

But for what it's worth, I've always felt that the key to the VC doesn't lie particularly in multiplicity of recorded performances (I've bought and listened to others, to prevent the music going stale, but Bean/Groves would always have been enough, really). It's a concerto that immensely repays detailed study, partly because of the complexity of the musical drama, and partly because with Elgar the life and the music are so intricately interwoven. I looked back through this thread to find some earlier posts about it - I've posted so much on the subject (and so have others) that it's hard to settle on any one description that might be the most helpful. You might like this one (#575) of a couple of years ago:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg409321.html#msg409321 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg409321.html#msg409321)

The discussion about the cadenza then continues, #591:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg409417.html#msg409417 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg409417.html#msg409417), and again, #593:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg409435.html#msg409435 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg409435.html#msg409435)

and again, #606:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg409775.html#msg409775 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg409775.html#msg409775)

and Sarge, at #616, with a lovely description of Solti/Chang:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg409921.html#msg409921 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg409921.html#msg409921)

In fact it goes on and on. We really did thrash this one to the point of overkill! Hope you find something useful among it all.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 02, 2013, 03:41:27 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 03:16:06 AM
I just checked, and yes, I see what you mean. It's a tragedy that this 2CD set has been allowed to drift out of print

Indeed, a pity. We few, we happy few who grabbed it two years ago were lucky the great "Bean" discussion happened at a time the twofer was widely available at a modest price. It's every thing you said it was.

Quote from: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 03:16:06 AM
and Sarge, at #616, with a lovely description of Solti/Chang

Thank you for finding that post. I was about to go hunting for it myself--I want to recommend the Chung/Solti to MI. Bean/Groves, Kennedy/Handley, Chung/Solti...my Elgar VC trinity.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 02, 2013, 04:58:36 AM
Of the Opus 68:

QuoteBefore the première Elgar told a reporter, "I have, I think, enjoyed writing it more than any other music I have composed and perhaps for that reason it may prove to be among my better efforts".
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 02, 2013, 05:11:07 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 02, 2013, 04:58:36 AM
Of the Opus 68:

Thanks for the quote, Karl. I was unaware of his personal stand on the piece. Might make my already enjoyable listens of it even more enjoyable.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 07:10:52 AM
I was trawling through those old discussions we had two or three years ago (fabulous discussions, full of real and meaningful exchange even where disagreement was keen) and came across some posts about the violin sonata. I thought I'd plant a pointer to them here (a) because  both Karl and I enjoy this particular territory so why not encore? And (b) because MI is bound to hit the chamber music soon, and might be interested. Here we go (#791):

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg413037.html#msg413037 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg413037.html#msg413037)

Then at #793 there are some specific responses to different recordings:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg413086.html#msg413086 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg413086.html#msg413086)

And in the posts following there are some good things from Sarge about alternatives. And to my amazement I find that I wrote a detailed discussion of Lydia Mordkovitch's astonishingly fine recording of the violin sonata, here (#801). Talk about unstoppable!:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg413129.html#msg413129 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg413129.html#msg413129)


Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 02, 2013, 07:19:07 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 07:10:52 AM
I was trawling through those old discussions we had two or three years ago (fabulous discussions, full of real and meaningful exchange even where disagreement was keen) and came across some posts about the violin sonata. I thought I'd plant a pointer to them here (a) because  both Karl and I enjoy this particular territory so why not encore? And (b) because MI is bound to hit the chamber music soon, and might be interested. Here we go (#791):

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg413037.html#msg413037 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg413037.html#msg413037)

It must likely have been that very post which put me on to the Mordkovich disc, Alan. And thanks for the revisitation, because, strain my aubergines if it isn't time I reeled in that Helios disc of the Nash Ensemble . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 02, 2013, 07:59:19 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 03:16:06 AM
It's a tragedy that this 2CD set has been allowed to drift out of print.

Luckily this set is included in EMI's 30 CD "Elgar Box" (discs 6 and 12). That's how I have those performances.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 08:13:42 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 02, 2013, 07:19:07 AM
strain my aubergines if it isn't time I reeled in that Helios disc of the Nash Ensemble . . . .

If for no other reason, you need it for that fabulous Atkinson Grimshaw cover.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 08:19:28 AM
Thanks Alan for all the feedback concerning Elgar's VC. If you noticed, I didn't like the Hahn/Davis performance either. :) As for the chamber works, I've just got one recording with the Nash Ensemble on Hyperion of the Piano Quintet and Violin Sonata. I've listened to this recording once and enjoyed it, but don't enjoy it as much as his orchestral music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 10:46:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 08:19:28 AM
As for the chamber works, I've just got one recording with the Nash Ensemble on Hyperion of the Piano Quintet and Violin Sonata. I've listened to this recording once and enjoyed it, but don't enjoy it as much as his orchestral music.

Just give it time, I'd say. The piano quintet and violin sonata are both immensely rewarding works, and worth persevering with. They may present Elgar on a small scale, but small only in terms of numbers of instruments - they're huge in terms of musical ideas.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 10:53:08 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 10:46:15 AM
Just give it time, I'd say. The piano quintet and violin sonata are both immensely rewarding works, and worth persevering with. They may present Elgar on a small scale, but small only in terms of numbers of instruments - they're huge in terms of musical ideas.

I enjoyed the Violin Sonata more than the Piano Quintet, but I'll listen to this recording again.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 11:24:02 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 10:53:08 AM
I enjoyed the Violin Sonata more than the Piano Quintet, but I'll listen to this recording again.

I've always felt that with these chamber works, one gets really close to 'the private Elgar' - a very different animal to the public Elgar who often felt the impulse to make grand statements. He wrote them in very unusual circumstances, staying in a remote Sussex cottage ('Brinkwells') with his wife, living in relatively primitive conditions. He became very keen on things like wood-chopping and carpentry, and developed a quasi-mystical relationships with the woodland in which the cottage was situated. This, then, is post-war private Elgar, very intimate, very personal. If there's such a thing as a 'key' to late Elgar, it's in the chamber music of this period.

There's a book written around the cottage and its significance:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51a5L2PB6KL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 11:32:11 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 11:24:02 AM
I've always felt that with these chamber works, one gets really close to 'the private Elgar' - a very different animal to the public Elgar who often felt the impulse to make grand statements. He wrote them in very unusual circumstances, staying in a remote Sussex cottage ('Brinkwells') with his wife, living in relatively primitive conditions. He became very keen on things like wood-chopping and carpentry, and developed a quasi-mystical relationships with the woodland in which the cottage was situated. This, then, is post-war private Elgar, very intimate, very personal. If there's such a thing as a 'key' to late Elgar, it's in the chamber music of this period.

There's a book written around the cottage and its significance:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51a5L2PB6KL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

One could say that a lot of composers' chamber music is intimate and gives an insight into their private thoughts, but, for me, it comes down to personal preference as with anything. I happen to like grand statements and rollicking percussion. :) So the orchestral Elgar will always be up my alley. Not to say that I don't appreciate the chamber music, but that it's not important to me. A great composer, like I believe Elgar is, can turn an orchestral work into something as personal as he wants, and being the outstanding orchestrator I believe he was, he has achieved this on numerous occasions.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 01:22:52 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 11:32:11 AM
One could say that a lot of composers' chamber music is intimate and gives an insight into their private thoughts, but, for me, it comes down to personal preference as with anything. I happen to like grand statements and rollicking percussion. :) So the orchestral Elgar will always be up my alley. Not to say that I don't appreciate the chamber music, but that it's not important to me. A great composer, like I believe Elgar is, can turn an orchestral work into something as personal as he wants, and being the outstanding orchestrator I believe he was, he has achieved this on numerous occasions.

Surely it's obvious that I'm not in any sense suggesting some kind of psychological inadequacy in the orchestral works? You couldn't conceivably conclude that, from all I've said. And I'm all for a bit of rollicking grandness, myself. I'm not attempting to persuade you to listen to Elgar's chamber music against your will, you know; neither am I asking you to defend your preference for large-scale works. I'm merely presenting my personal tree of Elgarian knowledge in the hope that some of it may be helpful, and some maybe save you (and anyone else who's interested) some dead ends. On which tree (to quote Ruskin) 'if any fruit grow such as you can like, you are welcome to gather it without thanks; and so far as it is poor or bitter, it will be your justice to refuse it without reviling.'
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 01:57:15 PM
What is everyone's favorite performance of the Cello Concerto besides du Pre? :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 02:34:49 PM
My apologies to you, Alan. I do appreciate your help and your suggestions. I didn't mean to come across to like jerk. Gurn is right about me. I do come off sounding like jerk on GMG a lot even though it's never my intention unless I'm intentionally meaning to come across that way. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 02, 2013, 03:48:27 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 01:57:15 PM
what is everyone's favorite performance of the Cello Concerto besides du Pre? :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41eO5BVqVGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512aroH-yrL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Same performance can be found on these discs.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 02, 2013, 03:48:27 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41eO5BVqVGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512aroH-yrL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Same performance can be found on these discs.

Nice, Greg. I own the 'Masters' recording with the Enigma Variations. It rounds out the 2-CD set of Elgar that Sinopoli conducted.
Title: Re: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 02, 2013, 04:06:28 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 01:22:52 PM
. . . On which tree (to quote Ruskin) 'if any fruit grow such as you can like, you are welcome to gather it without thanks; and so far as it is poor or bitter, it will be your justice to refuse it without reviling.'

Eminent good sense, and a gracious analogy to boot.
Title: Re: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 02, 2013, 04:09:04 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 01:57:15 PM
. . . what is everyone's favorite performance of the Cello Concerto

Still partial to Navarra, though sure I need to spend some more time with Schiff.
Title: Re: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 02, 2013, 04:10:09 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 02, 2013, 04:09:04 PM
Still partial to Navarra, though sure I need to spend some more time with Schiff.

Who is conducting the Navarra?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 02, 2013, 04:11:52 PM
Glorious John leads the Hallé.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 02, 2013, 04:12:46 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 02, 2013, 04:11:52 PM
Glorious John leads the Hallé.

Perfect, thanks.
Didn't know if Navarra recorded more than one Elgar CC.
Title: Re: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 04:21:39 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 02, 2013, 04:09:04 PM
Still partial to Navarra, though sure I need to spend some more time with Schiff.

Do you know what year the Navarra performance is, Karl?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 02, 2013, 04:59:23 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 01:22:52 PM
I'm merely presenting my personal tree of Elgarian knowledge in the hope that some of it may be helpful, and some maybe save you (and anyone else who's interested) some dead ends. On which tree (to quote Ruskin) 'if any fruit grow such as you can like, you are welcome to gather it without thanks; and so far as it is poor or bitter, it will be your justice to refuse it without reviling.'
You have a great deal to share too, which I have always appreciated. But I think sharing the 'dead ends' is an interesting concept, because I must admit that it is sometimes those very 'dead ends' that allow me to take the next step. I'm thinking here of the Shaham played Violin Concerto. Perhaps I would have taken to the piece immediately if I had started with one of your favorites (or someone else's), but then finally hearing what I always knew must be there made it more than worth it when I finally heard it.

I am also intrigued by his chamber works, which (with a few exceptions) are still unexplored territory for me. Chamber was never my thing until fairly recently, but I find that in my 'old age' I am becoming more interested in chamber. But perhaps that is not accurate either - I have always loved saxophone quartets.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 07:40:27 PM
Just listened to this recording of Introduction & Allegro and Enigma Variations:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000B6N6GI.01.L.jpg)

Very good performances all-around. Haitink gives these works some weightiness. Nimrod was handled beautifully. In Haitink's performance, it lasts 4 minutes, 13 seconds which puts it almost in the A. & C. Davis camp. Haitink handled the climaxes beautifully and obviously shows great affinity with the work. So is Haitink a dedicated Elgarian? I can't answer this, because it seems he hasn't recorded any Elgar in a long time unlike a conductor like Andrew Davis who, in my estimate, is the greatest living Elgarian. We're lucky to have these performances with Haitink. The London Philharmonic perform beautifully.

Special note: the GRS movement (Variation No. 12) will give your speakers a workout. 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 08:55:24 PM
Now listening:

[asin]B000JBWUOE[/asin]

Listening to The Music Makers. This is a very good performance, but I don't have a lot to compare it to as I only own the Andrew Davis recording of it on Warner, which I don't remember. This work is full of haunting lyricism. A great coupling to Sea Pictures.

Edit: Wait a dang minute here, I have four performances of The Music Makers: this one with Wright/Bournemouth, Boult/New Philharmonia, Davis/BBC SO, and Elder/Halle. One of the ones I'm lacking is Hickox's, which is coupled also with Sea Pictures.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 03, 2013, 02:14:50 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 02:34:49 PM
My apologies to you, Alan. I do appreciate your help and your suggestions. I didn't mean to come across to like jerk. Gurn is right about me. I do come off sounding like jerk on GMG a lot even though it's never my intention unless I'm intentionally meaning to come across that way. :)

I'll refer to this post first, so that I can show clearly that I've read and accept your apology. However, since I read your earlier post first and was upset by it, I don't propose to let you completely off the hook. Sometimes, not all the consequences of our errors of judgement can be undone, unfortunately. So let's consider what you said - since you chose to leave it in place instead of deleting it (which might have been kinder and wiser than leaving it for me to discover this morning).

QuoteNo need to get bent out of shape about this, Elgarian. You're offering your perspective and I've giving you my own. Okay? There are many ways to appreciate Elgar's music.

The matter we were discussing is not a simple matter of two perspectives. Let me clarify. I'm not an authority on Elgar, but a lifelong enthusiast. I'll gladly acknowledge that any statement I make about Elgar may be in need of correction, and indeed if I'm wrong, then the sooner I'm corrected the better. But there's a difference between correction and flannel.

I want to draw a sharp distinction between two kinds of statement. On the one hand, there are observations made on the basis of long and detailed acquaintance with Elgar's life and music, particularly (in the case of his chamber music) concerning a specific period of his life which is very well documented and about which it's possible to be well-informed. Even if the observations are disagreed with, they can potentially be refuted, and lessons learned. That way lies real knowledge, or at least the possibility of it. My comments about Elgar's chamber music being a kind of key to his inner life at the time were of that sort. They're not original, but are based on well-established existing scholarship. They could be wrong; but I can argue a case for them. They had nothing to do with liking or disliking chamber music, or with personal attitudes to its importance, or indeed with my personal preferences for anything at all.

On the other hand, there are observations which are loose generalisations about, let's say, chamber music in general, which could be made about any composer, at any time, and which are so vague as to be impossible either to prove or refute. Your response was of that sort. It cuts across any possibility of further rational discussion.

You then went on to tell me, in a patronising manner, not to get 'bent out of shape', because we were merely offering different perspectives? Well, too damn right we were. One of us was offering real information, helpfully meant, while the other was offering flannel and fluff. But how unnecessary it all is. You have a far broader knowledge of music in general than I do; you have nothing to fear from those very few occasions when I (or anyone else) turns out to know a little more than you do. Give us a bit of slack, won't you?


Gurn is indeed quite right. You sometimes do come over as a jerk, and considering the wealth of experience you have to offer (and from which I've benefited myself and am grateful - think of those great chats we had about The Planets, etc), I think it's a terrible shame.

I've had my say. I accept the apology. Can we leave it there and get back to this man's wonderful music? Because there is so much of it, and it's so deeply rewarding, that it ought to be something we can share in friendship, not bicker about in stupid point-scoring manoeuvres.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 03, 2013, 02:17:55 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 04:21:39 PM
Do you know what year the Navarra performance is, Karl?

May 1957.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 03, 2013, 02:21:17 AM
And I shall revisit the Elder recording of both Falstaff and (with Schiff) of the Cello Concerto to-day.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 03, 2013, 02:28:49 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 01:57:15 PM
Anyway, getting away from the chamber works ::), what is everyone's favorite performance of the Cello Concerto besides du Pre? :)

My absolute favourite recording is Beatrice Harrison, with Elgar conducting. Trouble is, I know too much about her to be objective, from her playing cello to the nightingales in her garden, to Elgar's whispered comment once as they went up onto the stage together: 'Give it 'em Beatrice; don't mind about the notes or anything; give 'em the spirit.' So a lot of extra-musical baggage comes into my choice. Still, she was Elgar's chosen cellist of distinction.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 03, 2013, 03:37:32 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 03, 2013, 02:28:49 AM
My absolute favourite recording is Beatrice Harrison, with Elgar conducting. Trouble is, I know too much about her to be objective, from her playing cello to the nightingales in her garden, to Elgar's whispered comment once as they went up onto the stage together: 'Give it 'em Beatrice; don't mind about the notes or anything; give 'em the spirit.' So a lot of extra-musical baggage comes into my choice. Still, she was Elgar's chosen cellist of distinction.

Which in turn reminds me to check who the cellist is, in the Elgar's Own Edition.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 03, 2013, 03:41:28 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 03, 2013, 03:37:32 AM
Which in turn reminds me to check who the cellist is, in the Elgar's Own Edition.

Bah, can you tell I've not had my first cuppa tea yet this morning? Cor, but I feel dumber 'n a toothpick in a shuttered delicatessen.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 03, 2013, 05:12:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 03, 2013, 03:41:28 AM
Bah, can you tell I've not had my first cuppa tea yet this morning? Cor, but I feel dumber 'n a toothpick in a shuttered delicatessen.

I think we have the makings of a good and testing Pub Quiz question: In Beatrice Harrison's recording of Elgar's cello concerto under Elgar's baton,
(1) who was the soloist?
(2) what was the solo instrument?
(3) who was the conductor?
(4) and in which shuttered delicatessen did it not take place?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 03, 2013, 05:16:13 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 03, 2013, 05:12:14 AM
I think we have the makings of a good and testing Pub Quiz question: In Beatrice Harrison's recording of Elgar's cello concerto under Elgar's baton,
(1) who was the soloist?
(2) what was the solo instrument?
(3) who was the conductor?
(4) and in which shuttered delicatessen did it not take place?
For extra credit there is:
(5) what piece were they playing at the time? :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 03, 2013, 05:17:00 AM
Thanks for the chuckle, gents! Cheers!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 03, 2013, 05:22:26 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 03, 2013, 05:16:13 AM
For extra credit there is:
(5) what piece were they playing at the time? :)

Damn, I wish I'd thought of that! What a clincher!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 03, 2013, 06:31:44 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 03, 2013, 02:17:55 AM
May 1957.

Thanks, Karl. One further question is it in mono or stereo?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 03, 2013, 08:25:42 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 03, 2013, 06:31:44 AM
Thanks, Karl. One further question is it in mono or stereo?

Will check when I get home, John. I should think stereo . . . certainly it was a Wilma Cozart Fine job . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 03, 2013, 08:27:32 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 02, 2013, 10:53:08 AM
I enjoyed the Violin Sonata more than the Piano Quintet, but I'll listen to this recording again.

My ranking of Elgar's chamber works (favorite performance):

1. Piano Quintet (Maggini String Quartet + Peter Donohoe)
2. Violin Sonata (Lydia Mordkovitch + Julian Milford)
3. String Quartet (draw between Maggini String Quartet and Music Group of London)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 03, 2013, 08:29:18 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 03, 2013, 08:25:42 AM
Will check when I get home, John. I should think stereo . . . certainly it was a Wilma Cozart Fine job . . . .

Thanks, Karl. I'll check it out. You can never have too many performances of the CC. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 03, 2013, 10:01:35 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 03, 2013, 08:42:17 AM
Now:

[asin]B0000B0A0P[/asin]

Listening to Elgar's Enigma Variations from this great set. A unique insight into this work. Some interesting choices of tempi throughout.

Has anyone heard this Stokowski performance? It's really good. The Czech Philharmonic perform admirably well. This set is the first time this particular performance has been released.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 03, 2013, 11:47:32 AM
What do I love about du Pre's performance? Her intensity, virtuosity, ability to plumb the emotional depths of a work that clearly sounds like a confession of sorrow, loneliness, and isolation. I hear a cellist playing as if her very life was at stake. She became Elgar's voice crying out amidst the shadows. That yearning lyricism haunts me to no end. It also helps to have a sympathetic conductor aiding the performer in the music. In this case, Barbirolli was hers for the duration of this work. He was there with her from the first note that was played. I can think of no other performance that satisfies me this way than du Pre's. I have heard her earlier performance with Barenboim and, it's nice, but it doesn't begin to express the type of emotion this performance personifies.

There, Neal, is that a good explanation? :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 03, 2013, 12:27:36 PM
If you will excuse it for a bit, I am going to lock this while I get a grip on what has gone on. Meanwhile we can all listen to some Haydn and come back refreshed. :)

8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 03, 2013, 04:33:37 PM
Very well, hopefully the Haydn has had its usual beneficent effect and we are ready to resume the discussion of the normally non-controversial Sir Edward. I have applied the pruner with equal opportunity for all, and fondly hope that I shan't have to return to the 20th century for a bit. :)

Carry on, I suppose.

8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 03, 2013, 05:02:15 PM
Revisiting this recording after a long hiatus...

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000GCAV.01.L.jpg)

No sure what everyone's favorite performance of The Music Makers is but this one is GREAT! Boult, always the assured Elgarian, conducts an unforgettable performance IMHO. Janet Baker sounds better than ever here. I'm also going to tread on through The Dream of Gerontius. A work, which under Elder, has given me some problems. Hopefully, Boult's clear-headed way with the music will spark some interest for me this time around.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2013, 08:15:05 PM
Hello...Hello...Hello....is there anybody out there? :)

I guess when Gurn cleaned some house, he cleared out the people too! ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 04, 2013, 08:27:33 PM
The three recordings of Music Makers I own...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V06veqxlL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518i8EYpNGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41azBMlnLjL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


All three very good. Wright/Naxos has superb sound with much clarity in the choir, especially in the quieter moments, and Connolly has the perfect voice for this and Sea. Although, Davis is overall the better of the three I would say.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2013, 09:10:39 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 04, 2013, 08:27:33 PM
The three recordings of Music Makers I own...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V06veqxlL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518i8EYpNGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41azBMlnLjL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


All three very good. Wright/Naxos has superb sound with much clarity in the choir, especially in the quieter moments, and Connolly has the perfect voice for this and Sea. Although, Davis is overall the better of the three I would say.

Thanks for the feedback, Greg. I thought the Connolly/Wright was very good. I agree about the clarity of, not only the choir, but the orchestral as well. I do believe, though, I like the weightiness and darker toned Baker/Boult performance much more than the Connolly/Wright. This is such a good performance. Have you heard it? I need to re-listen to the Andrew Davis/Rigby as it's been quite some time since I've heard it. As I said before, Sir Andrew Davis is my favorite living Elgar conductor.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 05, 2013, 03:03:21 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 03, 2013, 05:02:15 PM
Revisiting this recording after a long hiatus...

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000GCAV.01.L.jpg)

No sure what everyone's favorite performance of The Music Makers is but this one is GREAT! Boult, always the assured Elgarian, conducts an unforgettable performance IMHO. Janet Baker sounds better than ever here. I'm also going to tread on through The Dream of Gerontius. A work, which under Elder, has given me some problems. Hopefully, Boult's clear-headed way with the music will spark some interest for me this time around.

I listened to Gerontius from this yesterday. I think Boult did better with The Apostles and The Kingdom but this is nevertheless a good performance. Somehow I do like Naxos' Gerontius a lot even if people say it is very bad. It has clarity that is missing in the older analog recordings. In my opinion Elgar's music need sonic clarity more than "emotional" performance because the music itself is so emotional and contains tons of orchestral nyances to be heard. You probably disagree but I don't care anymore. If you enjoy your music another way then go ahead! It's not away from me and the way I listen to and enjoy music should not be away from you. I also have Barbirolli's acclaimed Gerontius but it was almost a disappointment to me. The Naxos disc is my favorite Gerontius and I might be the only person in the world saying so. Then again, I have only these three performances. Elder's Gerontius probably blows the Naxos out of the water...  ::)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 05, 2013, 03:19:59 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 05, 2013, 03:03:21 AMSomehow I do like Naxos' Gerontius a lot even if people say it is very bad. It has clarity that is missing in the older analog recordings.

Amazing how different ears are  ;D  Reviews at Amazon complain about the sound:

"was less than thrilled with the choral passages--they sounded muffled and distant"

"Engineering wise, it has a distant sound stage"

"but don't buy this recording: you won't be able to hear a thing!"


My favorite Gerontius of the four I own is Britten's (Elder, Barbirolli, Boult being the other three).

Sarge



Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 05, 2013, 03:42:13 AM
Thanks for reminding me of that Britten Gerontius, Sarge . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 05, 2013, 03:45:16 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 05, 2013, 03:19:59 AM
Amazing how different ears are  ;D  Reviews at Amazon complain about the sound:

"was less than thrilled with the choral passages--they sounded muffled and distant"

"Engineering wise, it has a distant sound stage"

"but don't buy this recording: you won't be able to hear a thing!"

That's what I said, other people disagree with me. I don't have any difficulties to hear the music. I feel like hearing more of the nyances with this performance than the others. I think these reviewers are not used to modern dynamic recordings where the loudness level varies a lot.  ::)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 05, 2013, 03:19:59 AMMy favorite Gerontius of the four I own is Britten's (Elder, Barbirolli, Boult being the other three).

Sarge

When I bought my second Gerontius (in order to "upgrade" my "crappy" Naxos) I choose between Barbirolli and Britten. I went for Barbirolli because I dislike Britten's music and the thought of him conducting Elgar is repulsive to me. Well, Barbirolli's Gerontius has it's strenghts but I was shocked by the messy sound and how the little nyances where hidden in the sound porrage. I probably need to get used to that kind of sound but with Naxos I really get inside the work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 05, 2013, 03:51:16 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 05, 2013, 03:45:16 AM
. . . because I dislike Britten's music and the thought of him conducting Elgar is repulsive to me.

Mmm - okay.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 05, 2013, 04:00:37 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 05, 2013, 03:51:16 AM
Mmm - okay.

Yeah, it is stupid, I know. All people have these weird conceptions...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 05, 2013, 04:01:44 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 05, 2013, 03:45:16 AM
That's what I said, other people disagree with me. I don't have any difficulties to hear the music. I feel like hearing more of the nyances with this performance than the others. I think these reviewers are not used to modern dynamic recordings where the loudness level varies a lot.  ::)

You may be right. I've never had a problem turning the volume control up when encountering a recording produced at low levels with a large dynamic range. (I wasn't, by the way, criticizing your ears but was simply amused how differently we all hear things.)


Quote from: 71 dB on January 05, 2013, 03:45:16 AM
When I bought my second Gerontius (in order to "upgrade" my "crappy" Naxos) I choose between Barbirolli and Britten. I went for Barbirolli because I dislike Britten's music and the thought of him conducting Elgar is repulsive to me.

I understand your concern but Britten is in tune with Elgar's world. That surprised me, actually, but he brings it off splendidly, with an urgency and drama lacking in many other versions. Pears may have been over the hill, sounding a bit desiccated, but he is Gerontius.


Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 05, 2013, 04:42:18 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 05, 2013, 04:01:44 AM
You may be right. I've never had a problem turning the volume control up when encountering a recording produced at low levels with a large dynamic range. (I wasn't, by the way, criticizing your ears but was simply amused how differently we all hear things.)

Some people seems to think it's a bad thing if you need to crank the volume up. Technically it isn't. In fact in most cases turning volume up is about attenuating the signal less before feeding it to main amplifier where it is further amplified about 20 dB.

Here is a simplified example:

Say you have loudspeakers with sensitivity of 90 dB/W and impedance of 4 ohms. You want the peaks of sound pressure level to reach 100 dB. You need 10 W of power for the louspeakers, 5 W per loudspeaker for stereo system which means about 4.5 V to be fed into the louspeakers by your main amplifier. Typically the maximum possible signal level of cd-players is 2 volts. So, the cumulative amplification of your pre- and main amplifiers (no matter if their are integrated into one amplifier box) is 20*log10(4.5/2) = 7 dB (more or less). If the amplification of your main amplifier is 20 dB, the amplification of your pre-amplifier must be -13 dB. This means attenuating the signal by 13 dB! If you turn the volume up by 10 dB, the attenuation in your pre-amplifier reduces to 3 dB. Any person understanding these things worries about turning volume for other reasons (e.g. what it means to neighbourship or your hearing).


Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 05, 2013, 04:01:44 AMI understand your concern but Britten is in tune with Elgar's world. That surprised me, actually, but he brings it off splendidly, with an urgency and drama lacking in many other versions. Pears may have been over the hill, sounding a bit desiccated, but he is Gerontius.


Sarge

Yes, I know Britten's Gerontius is highly regarded. Maybe I will give it a change in the future but for now I am planning to reduce the amount of classical CDs I buy and listen to all those discs I already own. Who knows, perhaps I even start to like Britten's music? I have been very ignorant with him. I only own one Naxos of his String Quartets. Frankly, I don't have a clue where to start with his music. Everytime I hear his orchestral music somewhere it sounds "disturbing" to my ears.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on January 05, 2013, 06:41:09 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 05, 2013, 04:42:18 AMWho knows, perhaps I even start to like Britten's music? I have been very ignorant with him. I only own one Naxos of his String Quartets. Frankly, I don't have a clue where to start with his music. Everytime I hear his orchestral music somewhere it sounds "disturbing" to my ears.

Maybe we should go kick-start the Britten thread. I've been thinking the same thing. After hating Britten's Midsummer Night's Dream three years ago at the Houston Grand Opera, I've stuck with his smaller-scale works - A Simple Symphony, Ceremony of Carols, solo cello suites - and have always found them more appealing than the bigger stuff.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2013, 08:03:28 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 05, 2013, 03:03:21 AM
I listened to Gerontius from this yesterday. I think Boult did better with The Apostles and The Kingdom but this is nevertheless a good performance. Somehow I do like Naxos' Gerontius a lot even if people say it is very bad. It has clarity that is missing in the older analog recordings. In my opinion Elgar's music need sonic clarity more than "emotional" performance because the music itself is so emotional and contains tons of orchestral nyances to be heard. You probably disagree but I don't care anymore. If you enjoy your music another way then go ahead! It's not away from me and the way I listen to and enjoy music should not be away from you. I also have Barbirolli's acclaimed Gerontius but it was almost a disappointment to me. The Naxos disc is my favorite Gerontius and I might be the only person in the world saying so. Then again, I have only these three performances. Elder's Gerontius probably blows the Naxos out of the water...  ::)

Yeah, I think I'll pass on that Naxos recording. :) I've read nothing put negative things about including the quotes Sarge supplied. Definitely not worth my time. But if you enjoy it, like you said, that's all that matters. I have yet to find a performance of The Dream of Gerontius that does something for me. Elder's sounded great, but it didn't connect with me at all, but I think, in the end, this is a response the work itself and not to any performance issues, but I will continue to give it time to grow on me. The Music Makers, Sea Pictures, and The Spirit of England, however, are right up my alley.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2013, 09:16:25 PM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Nov10/Elgar_Little.jpg)

I listened to Tasmin Little's performance of the Violin Concerto with Sir Andrew Davis tonight and what a great performance. I'm very certain I need to go back and catch all the wonderful nuances my ears didn't catch the first time around, but on the first hearing, it sounded great to me. I like Little's playing a lot anyway. She still has the best Delius Violin Concerto on record (Mackerras/Decca). I'm going to read the liner notes as I hope Little has written some. She's always an insightful player. It seems like to me she becomes the music. Anyway, the performance of Polonia was fantastic too! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2013, 02:07:01 AM
Added to wishlist.  ???
------
Honestly, I go crazy. This is mad. All we do is buy new discs never becaming satisfied of anything. I have four recordings of Elgar's Violin Concerto already! Why am I not happy? Something is wrong.

My first Elgar CD was the Violin Concerto on Naxos (Dong-Suk Kang/Leaper). I used to be "happy with it" but then the idea of "better" performances has ruined it. I hope I still enjoy the CD the next time I listen to it. Buying more CDs seem to do nothing but removing space on my bookshelf (and money).

It might be best to leave this board because it prevents me enjoying the CDs I have (all I do is worry about all the discs I don't have!)  and I also feel unsure of myself among all you with such a insane understanding and knowledge of classical music. I am an alien, born on the wrong planet. Even when the discussion is about my favorite composer I feel very distressed.

Maybe it's too radical to leave altogether but I shouldn't spend so much time here.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 06, 2013, 03:00:57 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2013, 02:07:01 AM
Honestly, I go crazy. This is mad. All we do is buy new discs never becaming satisfied of anything. I have four recordings of Elgar's Violin Concerto already! Why am I not happy? Something is wrong. My first Elgar CD was the Violin Concerto on Naxos (Dong-Suk Kang/Leaper). I used to be "happy with it" but then the idea of "better" performances has ruined it. I hope I still enjoy the CD the next time I listen to it. Buying more CDs seem to do nothing but removing space on my bookshelf (and money).

In my view, Kang's recording of the VC is wonderful - a bit idiosyncratic to be sure, but certainly among my favourites. There's something wrong if subsequent events have spoiled it for you.

The really important thing is to understand the heart of the violin concerto, which I'm pretty sure you already do. My own life-long passion for the VC grew mostly through repeated listening to one recording (Bean/Groves) because it was all I had. The main reason I've bought extra recordings of the VC is NOT to try to find some 'perfect' performance (which is an absurd quest), but to keep the music fresh because I listen to the VC so often. I've read a lot about it, and I've listened to it a lot, and I've thought about it a lot. But all my additional extra recordings of the VC are a relatively late luxury. Not one of them has changed my understanding of the VC in any significant way, really. They've just made it a bit easier to keep listening, keep learning, keep trying to follow what Elgar is up to. There is no Violin Concerto Nirvana out there, waiting for you, if only you can find the right recording. Nearly all the recordings of the VC that I have are lovely; but nearly all of them could be dispensed with, without anguish, if I were forced only to keep a handful of favourites.

QuoteIt might be best to leave this board because it prevents me enjoying the CDs I have (all I do is worry about all the discs I don't have!)  and I also feel unsure of myself among all you with such a insane understanding and knowledge of classical music. I am an alien, born on the wrong planet. Even when the discussion is about my favorite composer I feel very distressed.

Don't suppose that anyone here understands more about the music than you do. It's always been obvious that you love Elgar's music; and for me, music should always be more a matter of the heart than of the intellect; and certainly it rises above any one particular recording of it. If anything I say has the effect of distressing you in the way you describe, then my advice would be to discard it without further thought, and just listen to Elgar instead.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 06, 2013, 03:02:14 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2013, 02:07:01 AM
Added to wishlist.  ???
------
Honestly, I go crazy. This is mad. All we do is buy new discs never becaming satisfied of anything. I have four recordings of Elgar's Violin Concerto already! Why am I not happy? Something is wrong.

My first Elgar CD was the Violin Concerto on Naxos (Dong-Suk Kang/Leaper). I used to be "happy with it" but then the idea of "better" performances has ruined it. I hope I still enjoy the CD the next time I listen to it. Buying more CDs seem to do nothing but removing space on my bookshelf (and money).

It might be best to leave this board because it prevents me enjoying the CDs I have (all I do is worry about all the discs I don't have!)  and I also feel unsure of myself among all you with such a insane understanding and knowledge of classical music. I am an alien, born on the wrong planet. Even when the discussion is about my favorite composer I feel very distressed.

Maybe it's too radical to leave altogether but I shouldn't spend so much time here.

Friend, don't fret. There's several options other than leaving this thread (which nobody wants because you are quite enjoyed here), first, learn to be happy with all of your recordings, find the qualities that separate them apart from each other. Think of it like going to a concert, you could see Elgar's 1st symphony by three different groups, they will all sound different and offer a unique tone to the overall piece. You don't have to pick a "favorite" nor label one as "benchmark", just as long as you enjoy them.
Second, stop buying CDs.  ;D  not everyone here is in the same financial setting, and you don't have to be a collector of thousands of recordings for your knowledge to be considered relevant. I honestly could get rid of a third of my collection and more than likely not miss it, like when you were a kid and your Mother says its time to donate some of your old toys, as you start going through them you realize you could never part with some of them, even if they were sitting in your closet for the past three years un-touched.(make sense?).
Lastly, get family with Internet radio sites, sample before you buy. Words are powerful here on the forum, but your ears should be the final judge. Spotify is chock-full of recordings.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: springrite on January 06, 2013, 03:05:51 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 06, 2013, 03:00:57 AM
for me, music should always be more a matter of the heart than of the intellect;

Absolutely. This reminds me of this:

"There are two ways to dislike art--one is to dislike it; the other is to like it rationally."
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2013, 03:47:39 AM
Most gratifying discussion, chaps.

Poju, I encourage you not to think of it as I bought a fourth recording of the piece, because the three I already own leave me unsatisfied, but more as a matter of different performers bringing out different elements and emphases in the piece.  The fact that I enjoy recording no. 2, and that there are things which happen in that recording alone, doesn't mean that I do not find recording no. 3 satisfying.  The fact that there are different things to hear in each of a number of fine recordings, opens up for us greater riches in the score.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2013, 04:00:48 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 06, 2013, 03:00:57 AM
In my view, Kang's recording of the VC is wonderful - a bit idiosyncratic to be sure, but certainly among my favourites. There's something wrong if subsequent events have spoiled it for you.

I agree with you, I like the Naxos a lot. I should be happy with it (and I am to certain level) but I have noticed everytime someone praises another recording it's harder to be happy with what I have. Some kind of "grass is greener on the other side" -effect. The funniest thing is these "other" recordings aren't always (if ever) superior to the (best) performances I already have.



Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 06, 2013, 04:09:46 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2013, 02:07:01 AM
Added to wishlist.  ???
------
Honestly, I go crazy. This is mad. All we do is buy new discs never becaming satisfied of anything. I have four recordings of Elgar's Violin Concerto already! Why am I not happy? Something is wrong.

My first Elgar CD was the Violin Concerto on Naxos (Dong-Suk Kang/Leaper). I used to be "happy with it" but then the idea of "better" performances has ruined it. I hope I still enjoy the CD the next time I listen to it. Buying more CDs seem to do nothing but removing space on my bookshelf (and money).

It might be best to leave this board because it prevents me enjoying the CDs I have (all I do is worry about all the discs I don't have!)  and I also feel unsure of myself among all you with such a insane understanding and knowledge of classical music. I am an alien, born on the wrong planet. Even when the discussion is about my favorite composer I feel very distressed.

Maybe it's too radical to leave altogether but I shouldn't spend so much time here.


Perhaps the fundamental thesis is in error? I estimate that 95% or more of all my purchases are for works I have never heard (ignoring fillers). That means that only a small percentage are repeats. And then I have 'rules' for buying additional copies of the same work:
1. I must be dis-satisfied with the original in some way (sound, performance, etc).
2. If I like a performance, I don't worry what others say about it (sure, I may be interested in what others do with a work, but one could spend a lot of money and time collecting certain works), and I don't get a repeat.
3. It's ok to collect a repeat if a) it is part of a box, and b) it is not the main reason for buying the box
4. Exceptions (just 6, for works I totally love): Alexander Nevsky, Spirit of England, Marriage of Figaro, Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 5, La Boheme, Beethoven's Piano Sonata No30 (op 109).

Re #4, I now have more than a dozen of of some of these works, and the work I originally loved or owned is still often my favorite (or one I enjoy):
Tchaikovsky 5 - Bernstein was first, but I always knew that was a bit different, so I got Mravinsky - they are still my favorite two today
Alexander Nevsky - Jarvi was first and would have been just fine if I had not discovered others. Turns out I like Stokowski even better, but Jarvi still floats my boat.
Beethoven SOnata 30 - Kempff was my first set and I still think he does well. I actually got Pollini first, also good.
Marriage of Figaro - Still think Solti tops here for me even though I have gotten some other very good performances.

This exercise (6 exceptions) has shown me that buying multiple versions is generally a waste of my time and money As some have mentioned, finding the 'best' is an elusive goal. It usually just leads to frustration. Once you find something you like, enjoy it! I remember my first Beethoven 6th - it was a record of some no-name group I have long forgotten, probably bought at the supermarket or some such thing. Well, it was perfectly satisfactory. No need for Karajan, Walter, Abbado, HArnoncourt, Bohm, Furtwangler, Toscanini, Mackerras, etc.

When it comes to Elgar, I have not gotten more than Boult's 1&2. I am just perfectly happy with them. Sure, I could get others, and I might squeeze a bit more enjoyment out of them, but I find that Boult's Elgar elicits a full range of reactions for me, so there really is no need to go further. Sure, it leaves me out of some discussions, but I enjoy just reading others experiences.  I may one day get others just to change things up and see what they have to say or maybe I will just go to a concert instead. My library has been useful as well - not so much for Elgar, but they have multiple versions of Mahler, which is a nice cheap way for me to compare.

Sorry if I am rambling, but I am just trying to show you there are multiple ways to the same destination, and none of them are any better than the other.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on January 06, 2013, 06:18:01 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2013, 04:00:48 AM
I agree with you, I like the Naxos a lot. I should be happy with it (and I am to certain level) but I have noticed everytime someone praises another recording it's harder to be happy with what I have. Some kind of "grass is greener on the other side" -effect. The funniest thing is these "other" recordings aren't always (if ever) superior to the (best) performances I already have.

I agree with what Alan, Neal, and Karl are saying. I, too, feel that psychological pull of "the grass is greener" - I see people talking about how great some recording is and after a while I feel the need to have it myself.

But the truth is, listening to music isn't a race to see what recording is the best. Your mission is to connect with the music, plain and simple; if like Alan you find that multiple recordings take away from the fatigue of hearing a piece 50 times, that's OK. If like me you find that multiple recordings create new insights and new perspectives (Beethoven's Third, as played by Barenboim and Dausgaard, sounds like two different symphonies!), that's OK. But bottom line, when you find something that satisfies you, that's all that matters.

Now there's always a chance that if I come to this thread and say "I have a CD of the Estonian Radio Symphony playing Elgar's First Symphony under the baton of Peter Schmuck, and that's the only Elgar I ever need," in that case, ignorance is not bliss! If all the Elgar I had was Solti's, you would be justified in arguing that I could learn about the music by hearing slower, very different performances.

But there is no race to find the best recording. There is no competition. If that was the case, all the people to ever record a piece, except for the "best" people, would be wasting their time. Recordings aren't here to scare us. They aren't here for us to rank in order. They're here to help us love the music.
Title: Re: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2013, 06:20:44 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 06, 2013, 04:09:46 AM
Perhaps the fundamental thesis is in error? I estimate that 95% or more of all my purchases are for works I have never heard (ignoring fillers). That means that only a small percentage are repeats. And then I have 'rules' for buying additional copies of the same work:
1. I must be dis-satisfied with the original in some way (sound, performance, etc).
2. If I like a performance, I don't worry what others say about it (sure, I may be interested in what others do with a work, but one could spend a lot of money and time collecting certain works), and I don't get a repeat.
3. It's ok to collect a repeat if a) it is part of a box, and b) it is not the main reason for buying the box
4. Exceptions (just 6, for works I totally love): Alexander Nevsky, Spirit of England, Marriage of Figaro, Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 5, La Boheme, Beethoven's Piano Sonata No30 (op 109).

Re #4, I now have more than a dozen of of some of these works, and the work I originally loved or owned is still often my favorite (or one I enjoy):
Tchaikovsky 5 - Bernstein was first, but I always knew that was a bit different, so I got Mravinsky - they are still my favorite two today
Alexander Nevsky - Jarvi was first and would have been just fine if I had not discovered others. Turns out I like Stokowski even better, but Jarvi still floats my boat.
Beethoven SOnata 30 - Kempff was my first set and I still think he does well. I actually got Pollini first, also good.
Marriage of Figaro - Still think Solti tops here for me even though I have gotten some other very good performances.

This exercise (6 exceptions) has shown me that buying multiple versions is generally a waste of my time and money As some have mentioned, finding the 'best' is an elusive goal. It usually just leads to frustration. Once you find something you like, enjoy it! I remember my first Beethoven 6th - it was a record of some no-name group I have long forgotten, probably bought at the supermarket or some such thing. Well, it was perfectly satisfactory. No need for Karajan, Walter, Abbado, HArnoncourt, Bohm, Furtwangler, Toscanini, Mackerras, etc.

When it comes to Elgar, I have not gotten more than Boult's 1&amp;2. I am just perfectly happy with them. Sure, I could get others, and I might squeeze a bit more enjoyment out of them, but I find that Boult's Elgar elicits a full range of reactions for me, so there really is no need to go further. Sure, it leaves me out of some discussions, but I enjoy just reading others experiences.  I may one day get others just to change things up and see what they have to say or maybe I will just go to a concert instead. My library has been useful as well - not so much for Elgar, but they have multiple versions of Mahler, which is a nice cheap way for me to compare.

Sorry if I am rambling, but I am just trying to show you there are multiple ways to the same destination, and none of them are any better than the other.

Thanks, excellent insights here.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2013, 07:08:12 AM
The reason I buy multiple recordings of the same work is because I love it. Every performance I own whether it be satisfactory or unsatisfactory brings me closer to the heart of the work. The way Tasmin Little plays is totally different than the way Nigel Kennedy plays the Violin Concerto, so in having these two alone gives me two different perspectives that I didn't have before. When you start adding in other performances this is what you're getting. If you're satisfied with only one recording of a work, then enjoy it. You don't have to have another performance of anything that you don't want. You should never feel the need to buy a recording if you truly don't want it, but, again, when it comes to a work that I want another performance of, I'm buying it. Not because it's 'hip' or 'cool,' but to hear a different interpretation that hopefully will bring me even closer with the music that I already love.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 06, 2013, 07:24:23 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 06, 2013, 06:18:01 AM
Your mission is to connect with the music, plain and simple; if like Alan you find that multiple recordings take away from the fatigue of hearing a piece 50 times, that's OK. If like me you find that multiple recordings create new insights and new perspectives (Beethoven's Third, as played by Barenboim and Dausgaard, sounds like two different symphonies!), that's OK. But bottom line, when you find something that satisfies you, that's all that matters.

Just wanted to add (mostly for the thrill of responding to this post, so full of good sense and insight) that of course it can be all of the above, or some, or none. There do exist recordings that open up such a brilliant new window on a work that one remains forever grateful to them. I think of (in my case) Immerseel's Beethoven 5, Cahill/Gibson's Spirit of England or more recently Monteux's Enigma Variations. But for the most part, for me, more recordings chiefly means more variety and less listening fatigue.

QuoteNow there's always a chance that if I come to this thread and say "I have a CD of the Estonian Radio Symphony playing Elgar's First Symphony under the baton of Peter Schmuck, and that's the only Elgar I ever need"

I want one, and I want it now! My researches show that it was only in print for two weeks, with copies available only from a small boy selling LPs from a wooden barrow in an obscure Estonian marketplace in 1973. How frustrating that the ultimate insight into Elgar should so cruelly be out of reach.


And finally, 'best GMG quote of 2013 so far', fully deserving of a free Georgian breakfast in the Pump Room at Bath:

QuoteBut there is no race to find the best recording. There is no competition. If that was the case, all the people to ever record a piece, except for the "best" people, would be wasting their time. Recordings aren't here to scare us. They aren't here for us to rank in order. They're here to help us love the music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 06, 2013, 07:35:13 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 06, 2013, 04:09:46 AM
When it comes to Elgar, I have not gotten more than Boult's 1&2. I am just perfectly happy with them. Sure, I could get others, and I might squeeze a bit more enjoyment out of them, but I find that Boult's Elgar elicits a full range of reactions for me, so there really is no need to go further.

As I read this, a reassuring fresh breeze wafted through the window and billowed the curtains, like a fleeting treasured memory from a distant past. There was a time when I too couldn't have cared tuppence for the idea of owning multiple recordings; and who's to say I wasn't happier for it? I feel a quote from Ruskin coming on:

"Whenever the desire of change becomes principal; whenever we care only for new tunes, and new pictures, and new scenes, all power of enjoying Nature or Art is so far perished from us: and a child's love of toys has taken its place."
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2013, 07:46:11 AM
All interesting responses so far, and I would like to add my 2 cents, despite not being an Elgarian per se, but because I deal with the same issues that you are dealing with.

When I started out, I would mention a recording that I had here and get various responses such as "oh, that one. You haven't even heard the music until you've heard Xxxx play it  ::) ". And I went all Poju on it and got depressed. But then I made a discovery/revelation/breakthrough, which is to say, I realized that other than having more experience listening due to longer time at it (or at least at that particular work/composer), many of these 'experts' knew nothing and were saying nothing other than that they liked this version. That's all they could say because they were merely listeners too, doing the same thing I was. That made things so much easier!

I have my little eccentricities, all of which are totally defensible, I might add. I now have 93 versions of Beethoven's 9th, for example. Each is unique and the work itself is still evolving after 190 years. However, I don't have 93 versions of Schubert's 1st Symphony. Despite that I really like it and like Schubert too. In my mind, it wouldn't be defensible to have that.

I have managed to collect 99% of all the period instruments recordings of Haydn's works. That is a fact, can't be avoided. Some of them are not particularly memorable or special, others are the greatest version ever put to record. But I collect Haydn because I am trying to learn something about the man and his music, so a special case. I like Beethoven and Mozart nearly as much, but I don't have that sort of collection of their works.

All other composers I have only 1 or 2 versions of. That's enough to hear their music whenever I want. You can't have a damned karmic breakthrough with every composer who ever lived! You can do it with 1, or at most, 2 composers. For the rest, find a nice versions and treasure it. That's all you need! Anything beyond that, as a general rule, is a form of mania.   :)

8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on January 06, 2013, 07:49:44 AM
Mmm, I hope for a chance to have that breakfast soon! I'll try to bring my copy of the Estonian Elgar First, which truly is a recording the merit of which is comparable to the rarity!

For now, I've put on Monteux' Enigma, and for some reason the sensation of reading this remark -

Quote from: Elgarian on January 06, 2013, 07:35:13 AM
"Whenever the desire of change becomes principal; whenever we care only for new tunes, and new pictures, and new scenes, all power of enjoying Nature or Art is so far perished from us: and a child's love of toys has taken its place."

- while listening to the first variation come to its climax, gave me a powerful feeling of the great potential of life's every moment. Today is going to be a good day. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2013, 07:55:57 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2013, 07:46:11 AM

I have my little eccentricities, all of which are totally defensible, I might add.

We all do, Gurn. :) I have 26 performances of the complete Daphnis et Chloe by Ravel. I have 40 or 41 recordings of Stravinsky's Le sacre du printemps and the list goes on.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on January 06, 2013, 07:58:38 AM
Thank you all. It's very nice to tune into GMG and see so much good sense displayed in a kind-hearted discussion among friends joined by their love of good music that attracted me to the site in the first place.

Time to give my attention to Tasmin Little's Elgar VC recording!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2013, 07:59:12 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 06, 2013, 07:55:57 AM
We all do, Gurn. :) I have 26 performances of the complete Daphnis et Chloe by Ravel. I have 40 or 41 recordings of Stravinsky's Le sacre du printemps and the list goes on.

Yes, yours are different than mine, and so is your philosophy about what is worth your time and effort to search out. No matter, it is the fact that you do it for works that you find worth doing it for, but not for every work in creation!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 06, 2013, 08:00:41 AM
I've got one! Eat yer heart out, Brian!!!:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/SpoofElgar_zpsca9fc737.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2013, 08:01:16 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on January 06, 2013, 07:58:38 AM
Thank you all. It's very nice to tune into GMG and see so much good sense displayed in a kind-hearted discussion among friends joined by their love of good music that attracted me to the site in the first place.

Time to give my attention to Tasmin Little's Elgar VC recording!

Hi David, nice to see you again. That Little caught my eye, I've been following her since her Delius sonatas recording, oh so long ago. She has matured nicely! :)

8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2013, 08:03:04 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2013, 07:59:12 AM
Yes, yours are different than mine, and so is your philosophy about what is worth your time and effort to search out. No matter, it is the fact that you do it for works that you find worth doing it for, but not for every work in creation!  :)

8)

That's true and this could be said for a lot of us here.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on January 06, 2013, 08:08:25 AM
In the "Romanza" (penultimate track) of the Monteux Enigma, from about 0:40-1:10, am I hearing birds chirping and (1:05ish) a child shouting in the distance?

P.S. I got the name "Peter Schmuck" from a real American writer on baseball. Poor chap ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2013, 08:10:04 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2013, 08:01:16 AM
That Little caught my eye, I've been following her since her Delius sonatas recording, oh so long ago. She has matured nicely! :)

8)

Indeed! As I mentioned, I still feel her first performance of Delius' Violin Concerto is the best performance I've heard.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2013, 08:26:36 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 06, 2013, 03:00:57 AMDon't suppose that anyone here understands more about the music than you do. It's always been obvious that you love Elgar's music; and for me, music should always be more a matter of the heart than of the intellect; and certainly it rises above any one particular recording of it. If anything I say has the effect of distressing you in the way you describe, then my advice would be to discard it without further thought, and just listen to Elgar instead.

Just reading your texts about Elgar makes me feel a fool Alan.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 06, 2013, 08:27:32 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 06, 2013, 08:08:25 AM
In the "Romanza" (penultimate track) of the Monteux Enigma, from about 0:40-1:10, am I hearing birds chirping and (1:05ish) a child shouting in the distance?

I don't hear your chirping birds, but I do hear the creak of a chair(?) at 0.45, and  the child's cry at 1.05 - which could itself be a bird, perhaps?

One of the treasures of this recording for me is the laughter of Winifred Norbury (W.N.), starting about 0.30 &ff. I can't explain just why this works so perfectly for me; it must be the subtlest of nuances which I can't define; yet it makes the difference between the mere acknowledgement of a little musical jape of Elgar's, and the feeling of momentarily knowing what it must have been like to know her. I'll be going to her house, Sherridge (near Malvern), next June, on a special Elgar Society occasion to launch a book about the Norburys and their relationship with Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 06, 2013, 08:30:21 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2013, 08:26:36 AM
Just reading your texts about Elgar makes me feel a fool Alan.  ;)

Just reading my texts about Elgar makes me feel a fool, Poju!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 06, 2013, 08:31:52 AM
Brian, you've got me playing the whole of that Monteux recording again, now. It makes me hurt, it's so damn beautiful.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2013, 08:42:31 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 06, 2013, 08:31:52 AM
Brian, you've got me playing the whole of that Monteux recording again, now. It makes me hurt, it's so damn beautiful.

A beautiful, passionate performance for sure.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2013, 08:42:38 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 06, 2013, 03:02:14 AM
Friend, don't fret. There's several options other than leaving this thread (which nobody wants because you are quite enjoyed here), first, learn to be happy with all of your recordings, find the qualities that separate them apart from each other. Think of it like going to a concert, you could see Elgar's 1st symphony by three different groups, they will all sound different and offer a unique tone to the overall piece. You don't have to pick a "favorite" nor label one as "benchmark", just as long as you enjoy them.

Thanks for your kind words.

Not only this thread but the whole GMG! Well, that would be too radical. We shouldn't take this forum as a list of obligations (buy this, listen to that, understand more etc.)

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 06, 2013, 03:02:14 AMSecond, stop buying CDs.  ;D  not everyone here is in the same financial setting, and you don't have to be a collector of thousands of recordings for your knowledge to be considered relevant. I honestly could get rid of a third of my collection and more than likely not miss it, like when you were a kid and your Mother says its time to donate some of your old toys, as you start going through them you realize you could never part with some of them, even if they were sitting in your closet for the past three years un-touched.(make sense?).
Lastly, get family with Internet radio sites, sample before you buy. Words are powerful here on the forum, but your ears should be the final judge. Spotify is chock-full of recordings.

I don't have a financial problem. I could buy more than I do. It just isn't meaningful. I am not stopping buying, just trying to make my purchases sensible. One of my best classical music purchases in 2012 was Schütz's Symphoniae Sacrae I (Concerto Palatino/Accent). With that set I feel I got something I have wanted for 15 years. That's Schütz exactly how I want my Schütz.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2013, 08:46:11 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2013, 08:42:38 AMWe shouldn't take this forum as a list of obligations (buy this, listen to that, understand more etc.)

No, the only thing we can do is share our love for the music, which triumphs over all physical media.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on January 06, 2013, 09:10:08 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 06, 2013, 08:31:52 AM
Brian, you've got me playing the whole of that Monteux recording again, now. It makes me hurt, it's so damn beautiful.

And I have had no choice but to put it on for a second time consecutively!

I'm glad you hear the child's cry; I think the squeak you hear at 0.45 is the most prominent of what I think are birds - I had my head directly between my speakers listening carefully for the sounds, which may account for this. But then you had to mention W.N. and I had to listen to the whole recording again...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2013, 09:15:46 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 06, 2013, 04:09:46 AM
Perhaps the fundamental thesis is in error?

Or it isn't a thesis at all! Just an obsession.

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 06, 2013, 04:09:46 AMI estimate that 95% or more of all my purchases are for works I have never heard (ignoring fillers). That means that only a small percentage are repeats. And then I have 'rules' for buying additional copies of the same work:

For most classical music I avoid multiple performances but with Elgar and Bach (my two supreme favorites) I allow different performances.

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 06, 2013, 04:09:46 AM1. I must be dis-satisfied with the original in some way (sound, performance, etc).
2. If I like a performance, I don't worry what others say about it (sure, I may be interested in what others do with a work, but one could spend a lot of money and time collecting certain works), and I don't get a repeat.
3. It's ok to collect a repeat if a) it is part of a box, and b) it is not the main reason for buying the box
4. Exceptions (just 6, for works I totally love): Alexander Nevsky, Spirit of England, Marriage of Figaro, Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 5, La Boheme, Beethoven's Piano Sonata No30 (op 109).

Good rules.

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 06, 2013, 04:09:46 AMWhen it comes to Elgar, I have not gotten more than Boult's 1&2. I am just perfectly happy with them. Sure, I could get others, and I might squeeze a bit more enjoyment out of them, but I find that Boult's Elgar elicits a full range of reactions for me, so there really is no need to go further. Sure, it leaves me out of some discussions, but I enjoy just reading others experiences.  I may one day get others just to change things up and see what they have to say or maybe I will just go to a concert instead.

Boult is very good with Elgar. I can recommend Elgar's symphonies on Naxos if you want another performances for low price. But, Boult might be all you need.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 06, 2013, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 06, 2013, 09:10:08 AM
But then you had to mention W.N. and I had to listen to the whole recording again...

Yes. It has that 'one more time' quality about it.

I've been trying to get at the root of the W.N. business, but I'm inclined to put it down as marvelous musical magic. Apparently Winifred's laugh was a real characteristic of hers - something everyone recognised and felt affectionate about. And Elgar used to tease her, deliberately, until eventually she'd laugh - just so he could hear it. In most recordings I don't hear that affection; I get a feeling of a kind of musical simulation of a laugh, though it's more of a cackle than a laugh in most cases.

What's so different with Monteux is that there's no trace of cackle. There's such delicacy to the musical symbolism of the laughter that I can almost imagine her, head slightly forward catching the light, eyes gently creased at the corners, chuckling with an indulgent smile. One may say, of course  - what does this have to do with the music? But in reply I'd say it has everything to do with the spirit in which the music was composed: 'my friends pictured within' is pretty explicit. Same goes for the revealing discussions between Elgar and some of the variationees at the time, of which quite a few have come down to us in various memoirs. So while my mini-obsession with W.N. may seem to be about an 'extra-musical' focus, it's very much part of what Elgar himself was focusing on, together with the friends he was playing the music to as he composed it. A conductor who can bring that out as Monteux does, so persuasively, and so sensitively, is laying out a rare treasure indeed, and of a very particular kind.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2013, 11:57:33 AM
Meanwhile, I've managed to get a bit closer to Falstaff, via a listen with score in hand.  It were hard for me to say just why I find this an indespensible aid with some pieces (certainly — we might even say, happily — not with every piece) but, well, I do find it a great help now and again.  (Come to think of it: it helped with the Elgar First Symphony, too.)  Let me marshal my thoughts, and heck, I just might assay an intelligent post at some point soon.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 06, 2013, 01:51:47 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 06, 2013, 11:57:33 AM
Meanwhile, I've managed to get a bit closer to Falstaff, via a listen with score in hand.  It were hard for me to say just why I find this an indespensible aid with some pieces (certainly — we might even say, happily — not with every piece) but, well, I do find it a great help now and again.  (Come to think of it: it helped with the Elgar First Symphony, too.)  Let me marshal my thoughts, and heck, I just might assay an intelligent post at some point soon.


Marshal those thought, Karl. And let's talk some Falstaff, I'm in the mood for another listen myself.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 06, 2013, 04:03:22 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 06, 2013, 11:57:33 AM
Meanwhile, I've managed to get a bit closer to Falstaff, via a listen with score in hand.  It were hard for me to say just why I find this an indespensible aid with some pieces (certainly — we might even say, happily — not with every piece) but, well, I do find it a great help now and again.  (Come to think of it: it helped with the Elgar First Symphony, too.)  Let me marshal my thoughts, and heck, I just might assay an intelligent post at some point soon.
Falstaff is a new acquisition for me. I got the recording on Apex (posted below, BBC SO/Andrew Davis), because I didn't have virtually any of the pieces. Which did you listen to?
[asin]B0009OBYV6[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2013, 06:07:53 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 06, 2013, 11:57:33 AM
Meanwhile, I've managed to get a bit closer to Falstaff, via a listen with score in hand.  It were hard for me to say just why I find this an indespensible aid with some pieces (certainly — we might even say, happily — not with every piece) but, well, I do find it a great help now and again.  (Come to think of it: it helped with the Elgar First Symphony, too.)  Let me marshal my thoughts, and heck, I just might assay an intelligent post at some point soon.

I look forward to your comments about Falstaff. It will be nice to get a composer's perspective on it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2013, 06:12:10 PM
Elgar's Symphony No. 2 is a gift from God. Everything about this symphony just hits the right spots for me. It has extreme mood changes and goes down some darker corridors but it always resolves to a breathtaking conclusion.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on January 06, 2013, 06:31:04 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 06, 2013, 06:12:10 PM
Elgar's Symphony No. 2 is a gift from God.
I prefer to think of it as a gift from Elgar!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2013, 06:42:25 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 06, 2013, 06:31:04 PM
I prefer to think of it as a gift from Elgar!

You're actually quite right and here's why:

It is his attitude to Roman Catholicism and to religion in general that is perhaps the hardest to unravel. Elgar's mother, Ann, converted to Catholicism some years before Edward was born. Edward was brought up in the Catholic faith and played the organ at St Georges Roman Catholic Church in Worcester (although so did his father William, a Protestant until he too converted to Catholicism on his deathbed in 1906). It is therefore perhaps inevitable that, when he produced The Dream of Gerontius, a setting of a poem by a Roman Catholic Cardinal which explores various tenets of the Catholic faith, people should jump to the conclusion that his Catholicism underlay his whole life. But his faith was never that strong.

Ironically, it was the early failure of The Dream of Gerontius itself that led him to make the oft-quoted remark "I always knew God was against art...", continuing "I have allowed my heart to open once - it is now shut against every religious feeling...", this shortly before beginning work on The Apostles and The Kingdom, two oratorios viewed from an admittedly more neutral religious perspective. Even in his youth in Worcester, however, he attended services in the (Anglican) Worcester Cathedral as regularly as those at his own church, although he may have been motivated to do so more by the music and architecture of the cathedral than by any religious persuasion. As he grew older, his belief gradually withered. Although on his deathbed he is reported to have reaffirmed his commitment to the Roman Catholic faith and, while unconscious, received the last rites, he had not attended a church service for many a year. He claimed to have no belief in a life after death and to have taken exception to the dogma of the Catholic liturgy. The ambivalence of his faith makes it somehow fitting that, while he and Alice are buried in St Wulstan's Catholic Church at Little Malvern, his memorial window is in Worcester Cathedral.

[Taken from elgar.org]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 07, 2013, 01:58:49 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 06, 2013, 04:03:22 PM
Falstaff is a new acquisition for me. I got the recording on Apex (posted below, BBC SO/Andrew Davis), because I didn't have virtually any of the pieces. Which did you listen to?

Hallé, Elder. The BBC/A. Davis is mighty fine, as well!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: snyprrr on January 07, 2013, 07:53:03 AM
Just noticing that 'Lincoln' actor (wazzizname) would make a good Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2013, 08:00:50 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on January 07, 2013, 07:53:03 AM
Just noticing that 'Lincoln' actor (wazzizname) would make a good Elgar.

Daniel Day Lewis.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on January 07, 2013, 09:17:08 AM
Not Benjamin Walker?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 19, 2013, 11:40:01 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51f1MFSkktL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The 1st symphony continues to amaze me. I've never heard anything like it. I've been listening to the account shown above.

And maybe it's refreshing for me anyway to get back to that sense of melody and beauty of line that Elgar brings to us in his 1st symphony. Definitely. You know, it's all about narrative. Music is so much about narrative. And I think Elgar is a great storyteller, particularly in this symphony. It also sounds very contemporary at the beginning, doesn't it? I think the brilliance he exhibits in the two symphonies that he completed, since he started writing symphonies so late in life - even later than Brahms, who was pretty tardy on that front - he didn't get to complete his third symphony, so it's so hard to judge that microscopic output compared to, you know, the nine Beethoven symphonies, the nine and a half Mahler symphonies. But I find these pieces really stand on their own, they make a statement. You feel that they're British through and through, and yet they're universal.

So I feel very strongly about these pieces I think the audiences really respond to them. has to be some kind of battle music always. But, of course, at the beginning of this movement it sounds rather furtive and, you know, sneaking around and this is a very traditional form. We should say that having the "1st Movement" and then followed by a scherzo movement, which this is, but, of course, this sense of the military and the battles, that is interwoven into this movement. This is when the smoke is clearing and the sacrifice is assessed. I really think the second movement is one of the most gorgeous in the history of orchestral music, if I dare say that. And the amazing thing, he has taken that little opening of the "2nd Movement," the scherzo movement, and he's slowed it down really exponentially. It's the exact same music. You can't recognize that immediately unless you actually go through and study the notes.

But there's something that you feel. There's a unity about the piece. And I think the brilliance of turning that scherzo motive, which was so furtive and evasive, into this emotional, straightforward, lyrical melody is quite amazing. I would say perhaps he's naive in terms of that sophisticated, emotional spectrum and conditions that we live under today. But feeling of tradition and history and nobility, you know, which undeniably is related to the fact of their history being a monarchy. Well, and you do use words like occasion and nobility. Is this all necessarily a British sound because every country in Europe more or less had a monarchy? That's true. You know, that's an interesting question. I think though, for British composers there is a shared history about music written for occasion. Like weddings, births, major battles. That sort of thing. You know, I always like to try to put myself in the year in which a piece was written. So this is 1908 and Elgar has not written any symphonies yet. He's 50 years old. So there's a real sense of anticipation about this piece. And, you know, you have to think at the time - so Mahler's writing symphonies but many composers have abandoned - as they do cyclically - the form of the symphony, saying it's outdated, outmoded. But Elgar really wants to take that traditional form and somehow imbue it with his own sense of proportion, majesty, thematic unity. It does, doesn't it? I really think that's a hallmark of all great British music.

There is a sense of maturation and arrival at the beginning of the first movement. But, of course, the fact its marked in an andante tempo, which means a walking tempo, and has this sense of occasion and nobility. And just hearing that music makes me sit up straighter or stand up straighter!



Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 19, 2013, 11:56:43 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 19, 2013, 11:40:01 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51f1MFSkktL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The 1st symphony continues to amaze me. I've never heard anything like it. I've been listening to the account shown above.

And maybe it's refreshing for me anyway to get back to that sense of melody and beauty of line that Elgar brings to us in his 1st symphony. Definitely. You know, it's all about narrative. Music is so much about narrative. And I think Elgar is a great storyteller, particularly in this symphony. It also sounds very contemporary at the beginning, doesn't it? I think the brilliance he exhibits in the two symphonies that he completed, since he started writing symphonies so late in life - even later than Brahms, who was pretty tardy on that front - he didn't get to complete his third symphony, so it's so hard to judge that microscopic output compared to, you know, the nine Beethoven symphonies, the nine and a half Mahler symphonies. But I find these pieces really stand on their own, they make a statement. You feel that they're British through and through, and yet they're universal.

So I feel very strongly about these pieces I think the audiences really respond to them. has to be some kind of battle music always. But, of course, at the beginning of this movement it sounds rather furtive and, you know, sneaking around and this is a very traditional form. We should say that having the "1st Movement" and then followed by a scherzo movement, which this is, but, of course, this sense of the military and the battles, that is interwoven into this movement. This is when the smoke is clearing and the sacrifice is assessed. I really think the second movement is one of the most gorgeous in the history of orchestral music, if I dare say that. And the amazing thing, he has taken that little opening of the "2nd Movement," the scherzo movement, and he's slowed it down really exponentially. It's the exact same music. You can't recognize that immediately unless you actually go through and study the notes.

But there's something that you feel. There's a unity about the piece. And I think the brilliance of turning that scherzo motive, which was so furtive and evasive, into this emotional, straightforward, lyrical melody is quite amazing. I would say perhaps he's naive in terms of that sophisticated, emotional spectrum and conditions that we live under today. But feeling of tradition and history and nobility, you know, which undeniably is related to the fact of their history being a monarchy. Well, and you do use words like occasion and nobility. Is this all necessarily a British sound because every country in Europe more or less had a monarchy? That's true. You know, that's an interesting question. I think though, for British composers there is a shared history about music written for occasion. Like weddings, births, major battles. That sort of thing. You know, I always like to try to put myself in the year in which a piece was written. So this is 1908 and Elgar has not written any symphonies yet. He's 50 years old. So there's a real sense of anticipation about this piece. And, you know, you have to think at the time - so Mahler's writing symphonies but many composers have abandoned - as they do cyclically - the form of the symphony, saying it's outdated, outmoded. But Elgar really wants to take that traditional form and somehow imbue it with his own sense of proportion, majesty, thematic unity. It does, doesn't it? I really think that's a hallmark of all great British music.

There is a sense of maturation and arrival at the beginning of the first movement. But, of course, the fact its marked in an andante tempo, which means a walking tempo, and has this sense of occasion and nobility. And just hearing that music makes me sit up straighter or stand up straighter!
I am really enjoying your comments, both here and your recent look at the new Beethoven sonata set. I think your comments about writing a symphony so late in life have some real relevence too. At times, you can almost hear him trying to wow the audience, whereas in the second symphony, he looked inward more. Perhaps I am imposing my own feelings and impressions on the works, but the idea that he really wanted this to do well (and it seems to me this was indeed a part of the background to how it was eventually composed if memory serves) meshes with the result.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 19, 2013, 12:33:10 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 19, 2013, 11:56:43 AM
I am really enjoying your comments, both here and your recent look at the new Beethoven sonata set. I think your comments about writing a symphony so late in life have some real relevence too. At times, you can almost hear him trying to wow the audience, whereas in the second symphony, he looked inward more. Perhaps I am imposing my own feelings and impressions on the works, but the idea that he really wanted this to do well (and it seems to me this was indeed a part of the background to how it was eventually composed if memory serves) meshes with the result.

Thank you!

QuoteAt times, you can almost hear him trying to wow the audience, whereas in the second symphony, he looked inward more.

I agree with you there, for me, the 2nd is more difficult to crack and I'm going to return to it soon, but what you say above is probably why. It's definitely sounds more personal.



Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 20, 2013, 06:10:25 AM
When "Pomp and Circumstance" was played in my high school it brought something that few other pieces could bring to my being. Elgar caused an aura of excellence, emotion, and passion to be projected to all of my soul. Allowing views to connect with everything I have ever felt within my life. Great thought and pure genius are underlying each seemingly simple measure of this piece. Elgar could not help but put a vein of noble melancholy into the more military music, as in the famous slow sections in the First and Fourth marches. It was never true that Elgar was universally regarded simply as a Colonel Blimp, epitomizing England, Empire and Establishment, his music confident and grandiloquent. Certainly, "Land of Hope and Glory" (better known to Americans from the "Pomp and Circumstance" March of countless graduations), As the end of June steadily approaches, the roaring excitement caused by the thought of graduation is found in all seniors. Each day they get closer to graduation and the sounds of Pomp and Circumstance become louder and louder.

A once-in-a-lifetime graduation setting was when Elgar received an honorary Doctorate from Yale University in 1905. At the end of the ceremony, the March no.1 in D was performed as recessional music. It was so well received that it was soon expected to be played during graduation ceremonies at many other prominent schools. Today it is rare to hear "The Graduation March" played outside of commencement ceremonies. It is a doomed enterprise. None of this detracts from his music, but there is no point denying it. the once-in-a-lifetime tune that entered the national consciousness and brought him popular fame, also acted partly as a barrier. Emphasizing the melancholy, tormented undertow to Elgar's music has brought a danger that his life-affirming, exuberant, glowing side is now underestimated. He may have wished to "curse the power that gave me gifts," as he once said, but he also knew the "Spirit of Delight" invoked in the epigraph to his Second Symphony.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 22, 2013, 02:59:06 PM
Elgar's First Symphony, especially the first movement, has numerous organized events within time. Does the future influence the present, or the present shape the future? Is the past attached or detached from the present? These concepts shape human culture and music. Understanding a composer's relationship to time provides insights into the language, constructs, context, and metaphor of their music –of this journey. Music is the journey from first note to last. Rather than being a glib cliché, in music, the journey – the time of the piece - is truly more important than the destination. As a climax to the exposition, such a release of energy brings a thrill to the listener. These moments of tension and energy release in Elgar's music are also familiar gestures in the vibrant swagger and joy of In the South.

Examples of these changes: At rehearsal 9 the music shifts from duple to triple while the over-all beat pattern (in two) remains the same. The horns gather and increase energy and provide a gesture of gusto. At rehearsal 17, after a rush of inner rhythms, sometimes eight notes per pulse, the music shifts into triple meter, Elgar's concepts of time are played out in his frequent meter changes as he moves fluently between duple and triple meters. In doing so his music often gathers energy or relaxes energy, depending on whether it shifts to more inner-rhythm pulses or relaxes with fewer inner-rhythm events.

Time allows the music to shift from a gesture of scuttling texture to one of full emotional warmth and color. present musical material in very different characters is also in the 2nd movement. The scurrying Allegro Molto violin line of the 2nd movement morphs into the beautiful Adagio espressivo melody of the of rehearsal 17 mentioned above. The hint of this idea to come is subtle; it may qualify as an instance of foreshadowing. As a means to the structure of the 1st movement, where a 'grazioso theme' initially in the clarinet line at rehearsal 11, bursts out in a horn line now stretched over four measures - the gusto tutta forza, Elgar will also use time as a way to expose new character within the same material.

Just some ramblings as I fall more into deep-love with this work!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 22, 2013, 03:42:40 PM
Thanks for your "ramblings," Leo. :) A good read for sure. I always liked Elgar's 1st, but, for me, it doesn't reach the same kind of plateau as the 2nd. This plateau I'm speaking of is spiritual transcendence. There's something remote and other-worldly about the 2nd that that I just can't even put into words. I can listen to that symphony over and over again and never tire of it. The Larghetto movement may be one of his most gorgeous creations, although he has many of these moments in his oeuvre. I definitely would try to get Symphony No. 2 under your grasp, Leo. It has turned out to be one of the most rewarding works I've returned to in a long time.

(FYI, I used to rate the 1st higher than the 2nd but this has certainly changed.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 22, 2013, 03:56:38 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 22, 2013, 03:42:40 PM
Thanks for your "ramblings," Leo. :) A good read for sure. I always liked Elgar's 1st, but, for me, it doesn't reach the same kind of plateau as the 2nd. This plateau I'm speaking of is spiritual transcendence. There's something remote and other-worldly about the 2nd that that I just can't even put into words. I can listen to that symphony over and over again and never tire of it. The Larghetto movement may be one of his most gorgeous creations, although he has many of these moments in his oeuvre. I definitely would try to get Symphony No. 2 under your grasp, Leo. It has turned out to be one of the most rewarding works I've returned to in a long time.

(FYI, I used to rate the 1st higher than the 2nd but this has certainly changed.)

You know, you're right, I haven't listened to this work enough times. I have uploaded the Boult and Barbirolli accounts into my iPhone, and I'm going to return to it. Also, I need to give the chamber works a spin. I recently acquired the big Masterpieces box, wow, that's a lot of Elgar! yes!

8)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 22, 2013, 04:00:03 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 22, 2013, 03:56:38 PM
You know, you're right, I haven't listened to this work enough times. I have uploaded the Boult and Barbirolli accounts into my iPhone, and I'm going to return to it. Also, I need to give the chamber works a spin. I recently acquired the big Masterpieces box, wow, that's a lot of Elgar! yes!

8)

I don't own that box set, but, yes, it's a big one. :) I think you'll really enjoy The Spirit of England. Such a beautiful work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on February 03, 2013, 11:30:46 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41nVWgfXqnL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Aaah, Elgar's Violin Concerto, a revist today with the recording above.

A nostalgia hinting at the essentially lovelorn themes of the First Movement and hints of the rest are so naturally captured that the Cadenza becomes what it should be in the concept - a true summation and emotional climax - and this is wonderfully rounded out in the Coda where Davis' judgment of architecture and emotional clinch has prepared the ground for the perfectly judged tempo increase at the transition to the fleet music of the Coda. It rounds out utterly compellingly. stasis. The orchestra sways gently into life at what is actually a quite quick basic pulse, though the pulse is indeed gently stated.

There is a multitude of detail that is perfectly brought out, which only adds to the feeling of relaxed exultation. The Finale starts with an imperious flourish in the solo part, which always strikes me as being difficult to bring off. Here it provides a sort energetic call to arms with Ehnes! Nothing skimped or rushed, but certainly the tempo never flags. The sadness is like quick-silver. Ehnes so utter penetrates the heart of this music that it is hard to find criticism of it. The heart of this concert resides in the slow movement though the Cadenza in the Finale is magical in a different way. The slow movement seems to me to represent the kind of blissful state of finding one's self laying down on one's back in the warm summer sunshine, with the sun's rays playing on closed eyelids. This performance manages this warmth and relaxation and seeming transitory technically and yet gentle in its ways. It is no good being strained by the challenges or it can come across as a sort virtuoso stunt.

The floating of the initial solo entry [in the first movement] gives the clue. From a wonderfully animated orchestral tutti emerges an enthralling thread of violinistic purity! But when the fireworks start and also in the Finale, there is no doubt of the technical quality of the playing, but this must be accompanied by a flexibility of phrase and tone that This recording has the considerable advantage of having Davis leading the orchestra in a most attentive accompaniment. Davis knows how to propel Elgar's music without ever rushing it. So the soloist has his chance! And does he take it!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on February 09, 2013, 11:51:10 AM
Back I go to the 1st Symphony...I don't want to shake this work from my mind, amidst my other listening this symphony continues to call out. It is so unique, so moving, so noble. I'm not prone to sweeping statements, but I say the Elgar First is my favorite symphony.

Try comparing it with Mahler's Seventh which was also premiered in 1908. Then ask yourself whether our ears, cosied by the comfy nobilemente of Elgar's popular public gestures, aren't thereby conned into glossing over his more abrasive, personally expressive music – in effect tucking the wood behind the trees, of Time in mind. The opening is a gesture of a pulse-less picture frame that sets off the music-time from the real-world time.

Then along came Elgar, dishing up roast beef and veg. liberally laced with tongue-toasting English mustard. His pièce de résistance (to date) came courtesy of a symphony that was, in many ways, right at the cutting edge of the avant-garde of the time! With the First Symphony of Edward Elgar we step into a world where the journey is truly more important than the destination. Time, from beginning to final note, is the essence of the performance. When approaching this work I sense the music is not his reflection of an empire on which the sun never set, or even his translation of the Malvern landscape into music (another myth in the way Elgar is talked and written about), but his creation of a complex, private, creative world at the same time as bearing the mantle of being Britain's most important public composer. It's a tension you hear in Elgar himself did not approve of Land of Hope and Glory and resented the way his tune was used - it was never his idea to put those words to that melody from the first Pomp and Circumstance March, reducing that piece to a callow, jingoistic celebration, and in turn, grossly impeding our appreciation and understanding of his whole musical personality.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Klaatu on February 09, 2013, 01:20:14 PM
Mirror Image:
QuoteThe ambivalence of his faith makes it somehow fitting that, while he and Alice are buried in St Wulstan's Catholic Church at Little Malvern, his memorial window is in Worcester Cathedral.

I am fortunate enough to live a few hundred yards away from Elgar's grave (his former home, Craeg Lea, is about half a mile in the opposite direction) and it occurs to me that I haven't visited the old boy for a long time.

But when I next go, I must try to find the grave of fellow composer Dorothy Howell (1898-1982) who, I recently discovered, is buried in the same churchyard (and tended Elgar's grave for many years.)

Her best-known work is the symphonic poem Lamia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86kSX0e9qR4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86kSX0e9qR4)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on February 09, 2013, 02:27:40 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 09, 2013, 11:51:10 AM
Back I go to the 1st Symphony...I don't want to shake this work from my mind, amidst my other listening this symphony continues to call out. It is so unique, so moving, so noble. I'm not prone to sweeping statements, but I say the Elgar First is my favorite symphony.

Try comparing it with Mahler's Seventh which was also premiered in 1908. Then ask yourself whether our ears, cosied by the comfy nobilemente of Elgar's popular public gestures, aren't thereby conned into glossing over his more abrasive, personally expressive music – in effect tucking the wood behind the trees, of Time in mind. The opening is a gesture of a pulse-less picture frame that sets off the music-time from the real-world time.

Then along came Elgar, dishing up roast beef and veg. liberally laced with tongue-toasting English mustard. His pièce de résistance (to date) came courtesy of a symphony that was, in many ways, right at the cutting edge of the avant-garde of the time! With the First Symphony of Edward Elgar we step into a world where the journey is truly more important than the destination. Time, from beginning to final note, is the essence of the performance. When approaching this work I sense the music is not his reflection of an empire on which the sun never set, or even his translation of the Malvern landscape into music (another myth in the way Elgar is talked and written about), but his creation of a complex, private, creative world at the same time as bearing the mantle of being Britain's most important public composer. It's a tension you hear in Elgar himself did not approve of Land of Hope and Glory and resented the way his tune was used - it was never his idea to put those words to that melody from the first Pomp and Circumstance March, reducing that piece to a callow, jingoistic celebration, and in turn, grossly impeding our appreciation and understanding of his whole musical personality.

Excellent post, Leo - made me reach for Andrew Davis & BBCSO's recording.
Great piece of music, too! (Should get back to that Borodin...)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 09, 2013, 05:44:10 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on February 09, 2013, 01:20:14 PM
Mirror Image:
I am fortunate enough to live a few hundred yards away from Elgar's grave (his former home, Craeg Lea, is about half a mile in the opposite direction) and it occurs to me that I haven't visited the old boy for a long time.

But when I next go, I must try to find the grave of fellow composer Dorothy Howell (1898-1982) who, I recently discovered, is buried in the same churchyard (and tended Elgar's grave for many years.)

Her best-known work is the symphonic poem Lamia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86kSX0e9qR4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86kSX0e9qR4)

Thanks for the information, Klaatu. Do try to revisit Elgar at some point. I have only recently made a real connection to his music and what a satisfying journey that was to experience.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on February 20, 2013, 08:12:10 AM
Now listening to this
[asin]B009IF123W[/asin]

It's an excellent recording, but probably appeals most to three sorts of people:
1)Elgar completists
2) Families with children in the 8-13 year old range
3)Someone looking for a Christmas fantasy that doesn't involve Scrooge or Rudolph the RNR.


Background to the work:
It's based on a children's story by Algernon Blackwood entitled A Prisoner in Fairyland, published just before WWI,  and turned into a play by one Violet Pearn, who grafted on an ending with the Star of Bethlehem and upped the sentimentality level of the story.  Originally, one Clive Carey (who would in later years be one of Joan Sutherland's teachers) was supposed to write incidental music for the play, but delays and someone's bright idea replaced him with Elgar.  The play with Elgar's music was premiered in 1915 and had a run of 40 performances.  Some of the music is regular song, but much of it was meant as melodrama--that is, music played while the actors spoke conventional dialogue onstage.

For this recording,  a narrative was written to be spoken over the music summarizing the action of the play--or rather, the play with changes reverting back to Blackwood's original story (the Star of Bethlehem still present but apparently not so in your case as in the original play), and a suite of the songs and other music organized by Andrew Davis.  Three of Carey's songs (never used for the stage version) were orchestrated by Davis and are included in the recording.

The narrative is a little confusing and hard to condense, so I won't even try.

Musical performances are fine, and Elgar had nothing to be ashamed of with the music he produced.   Acts I and II of the melodrama version comprise CD 1, which is just under an hour;  Act III takes up just under half an hour on CD 2;  Carey's songs take up about six minutes;  the suite arranged by Davis is about three quarters of an hour long, and is the portion of the recording that will doubtless be most listened to.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on February 23, 2013, 08:55:09 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LTyAKt1BL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Colin Davis' LSO recording is helping me enjoy Elgar's 2nd like never before. Not that this is a problem work, I'm just so enamoured over the 1st Symphony I'm very easily distracted from the 2nd symphony.

In this account articulation is precise, which helps with the conception of this work it seems: in the funeral march rhythm at the end of the slow movement for example. As usual in this series the LSO plays with consummate skill and great musicality, and the recording is extremely dry but very clear and transparent. Elgar has written some extraordinary string figuration in this symphony, and thankfully in this recording it registers clearly. Nor is there anything staid about the rest of the work, especially not in this top-of-the-bill recording. Its arguments are complex, and some of the themes somewhat heady, but the drama of it all is extremely gripping. Highly original touches of instrumentation and harmonization enliven things further. If you still think of Elgar as the epitome of staid Edwardian `Bürgertum', just listen to the horrifying middle part of this Symphony's Scherzo, and think again. Rhythmic structure is kept in tight control however, so that the opening theme of the first Allegro immediately makes sense. Nor is he content to let the finale drift away on the pulse of its easy-going humming-tune: in this recording it is the dramatic peak of the work, its elegiac ending all the more touching for it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 24, 2013, 07:39:28 PM
Glad you're enjoying Elgar's 2nd, Leo. For me, this is a better symphony than the 1st. I don't think the 1st is a bad work at all --- my feelings are quite opposite in fact. Where I think the 2nd has me hooked is that ever-lyrical Larghetto movement. I just respond to the moods of the 2nd. The music is more introspective.

My favorite performance of the 2nd is Sir Andrew Davis with the Philharmonia Orchestra on the Signum Classics label.
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on February 25, 2013, 01:53:39 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 24, 2013, 07:39:28 PM
Glad you're enjoying Elgar's 2nd, Leo. For me, this is a better symphony than the 1st. I don't think the 1st is a bad work at all --- my feelings are quite opposite in fact. Where I think the 2nd has me hooked is that ever-lyrical Larghetto movement. I just respond to the moods of the 2nd. The music is more introspective.

My favorite performance of the 2nd is Sir Andrew Davis with the Philharmonia Orchestra on the Signum Classics label.

Thanks John for your always great conversation, I see what you mean about the second, it's introspective and perhaps more melodic than the first, I'm starting to remember its themes and its getting in my head now! Every listen makes me fall in love with it more. I was listening to Haitink's account this morning and it blew me away, that's a well phrased and constructed account!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 25, 2013, 08:00:26 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 25, 2013, 01:53:39 PM
Thanks John for your always great conversation, I see what you mean about the second, it's introspective and perhaps more melodic than the first, I'm starting to remember its themes and its getting in my head now! Every listen makes me fall in love with it more. I was listening to Haitink's account this morning and it blew me away, that's a well phrased and constructed account!

Thank you, Leo. :) Haitink's account with the Philharmonia is a deeply felt performance. That Larghetto movement just sounds so right under Haitink's baton. He also nails the faster, more frenzied sections of the symphony. I think I'll give this one a spin tomorrow. FYI, Haitink also has a wonderful Enigma Variations under the LPO on their in-house label. Check that out when you have the time. It's coupled with Britten's Our Hunting Fathers and it also contains Elgar's Introduction & Allegro.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on March 01, 2013, 04:58:00 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 25, 2013, 08:00:26 PM
Thank you, Leo. :) Haitink's account with the Philharmonia is a deeply felt performance. That Larghetto movement just sounds so right under Haitink's baton. He also nails the faster, more frenzied sections of the symphony. I think I'll give this one a spin tomorrow. FYI, Haitink also has a wonderful Enigma Variations under the LPO on their in-house label. Check that out when you have the time. It's coupled with Britten's Our Hunting Fathers and it also contains Elgar's Introduction & Allegro.

I will have to check Haitink's Enigma! I was listening to Haitink's Elgar 2 this morning, and I'm floored again.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on March 01, 2013, 05:29:39 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on March 01, 2013, 04:58:00 PM
I will have to check Haitink's Enigma! I was listening to Haitink's Elgar 2 this morning, and I'm floored again.

Yes, you'll enjoy Haitink's Enigma I think. His 2nd is great performance. Good to see you're finally digging this symphony. It's a symphony that doesn't reveal it's secrets quite so easily. It takes a little more time to get, but it's well worth the effort as it's simply gorgeous music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on March 15, 2013, 04:12:23 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411tugNWIbL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

WOW. What a box! What a treasure!!!

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 16, 2013, 02:09:29 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on March 15, 2013, 04:12:23 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411tugNWIbL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

WOW. What a box! What a treasure!!!

Treasure indeed. The contents of that box always feel intensely personal. Many years ago, BBC Radio 3 broadcast Elgar's recordings in a series of early morning programmes, and I couldn't believe my luck. And I couldn't believe how good the recordings were, considering their age. I got up early each day and recorded them on cassettes. I was so excited I couldn't really listen to them properly on the day - overwhelmed by the knowledge that 'This is ELGAR!' But they didn't broadcast everything he'd recorded, so over the years I had to scavenge other recordings (on CD), one by one. The final appearance of that box a couple of years ago was a culmination of that kind of activity.

It's not that I think they're the best performances, or even personal favourites in a musical sense (apart perhaps from the Beatrice Harrison cello concerto). They often feel a bit too fast, for instance. He often doesn't seem to linger over, or highlight, the bits I'd like him to linger over or highlight. But the point is that they are Elgar's, and that gives them a character and a quality that sets them apart from everything else, even down to his being a presence in the room.

I presume you know there's another (smaller) box of his acoustic recordings? Not treasure in the same sense - harder to listen to - but possibly another essential purchase. I wrote some stuff about it above at #1348, here:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg584688.html#msg584688 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg584688.html#msg584688)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on March 16, 2013, 05:12:33 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 16, 2013, 02:09:29 AM
. . . It's not that I think they're the best performances, or even personal favourites in a musical sense (apart perhaps from the Beatrice Harrison cello concerto). They often feel a bit too fast, for instance. He often doesn't seem to linger over, or highlight, the bits I'd like him to linger over or highlight. But the point is that they are Elgar's, and that gives them a character and a quality that sets them apart from everything else, even down to his being a presence in the room.

Hear, hear. I've not made my way completely through these recordings, but what I've heard is marvelous.
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on March 17, 2013, 03:50:35 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 16, 2013, 02:09:29 AM
Treasure indeed. The contents of that box always feel intensely personal. Many years ago, BBC Radio 3 broadcast Elgar's recordings in a series of early morning programmes, and I couldn't believe my luck. And I couldn't believe how good the recordings were, considering their age. I got up early each day and recorded them on cassettes. I was so excited I couldn't really listen to them properly on the day - overwhelmed by the knowledge that 'This is ELGAR!' But they didn't broadcast everything he'd recorded, so over the years I had to scavenge other recordings (on CD), one by one. The final appearance of that box a couple of years ago was a culmination of that kind of activity.

It's not that I think they're the best performances, or even personal favourites in a musical sense (apart perhaps from the Beatrice Harrison cello concerto). They often feel a bit too fast, for instance. He often doesn't seem to linger over, or highlight, the bits I'd like him to linger over or highlight. But the point is that they are Elgar's, and that gives them a character and a quality that sets them apart from everything else, even down to his being a presence in the room.

I presume you know there's another (smaller) box of his acoustic recordings? Not treasure in the same sense - harder to listen to - but possibly another essential purchase. I wrote some stuff about it above at #1348, here:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg584688.html#msg584688 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg584688.html#msg584688)

Good to see you Elgarian, thanks for the heads up. The Elgar directed 2nd Symphony is so passionate and mercurial, I can barely catch my breath!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on April 01, 2013, 11:54:43 AM
I'm still enjoying my Elgar Electical Recordings box :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 01, 2013, 12:47:17 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on April 01, 2013, 11:54:43 AM
I'm still enjoying my Elgar Electical Recordings box :)

I'm not surprised. Those recordings are timeless treasures that always turn out to be that bit better than I remember, whenever I go back to them, and I like to take them with me when I visit Elgar's Birthplace so I can sit in his garden and listen to him. But also I became so infatuated with The Beatrice Harrison Experience (cello concerto) that I got seriously involved in her own history - there's a posthumously published journal called The Cello and the Nightingales - and that in turn led me back again and again to Elgar's electrical recordings. It's an intensely personal thing, self-sustaining and self-enhancing. There's a book devoted entirely to his recordings by Jerrold Northrop Moore - well worth getting if you can find one at a reasonable price:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EklTQJkdL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)    (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513aP0TkMfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 02, 2013, 09:09:26 AM
Haven't heard this new recording yet I'm afraid, so can't comment. But I was in the garden of Elgar's Birthplace yesterday, and it was bursting with sunshine and flowers:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1020084_zps1a974045.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Alan_/media/P1020084_zps1a974045.jpg.html)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1020096_zps310b31b1.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Alan_/media/P1020096_zps310b31b1.jpg.html)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1020098_zps466472ec.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Alan_/media/P1020098_zps466472ec.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 02, 2013, 10:26:33 AM
Beauty!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 02, 2013, 10:32:34 AM
That bottom photo is lovely. Could easily grace the cover of an Elgar album.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 02, 2013, 11:10:31 AM
Such charming pictures; I really hope to visit Elgar's birthplace sooner or later!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidRoss on June 02, 2013, 12:00:29 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on June 02, 2013, 05:55:40 AM
Just heard this performance of the Edgar cello concerto

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B009B82D48.01.L.jpg)

It sounded very fine to my ears but then, I have little history with the work.  Much seems to being made of Barenboim's involvement, i.e. first time recording the work since losing his wife, Jacqueline Du Pre.

Anyone have any comments?
Barenboim's recording with Du Pre was not good -- maudlin, indulgent to the point of sappiness. I just listened to some of this new one via Mog and thought it erred on the indulgent side also, and seemed limp. Better is Du Pre/Barbirolli.  Better yet is Tortelier/Boult. Among more recent recordings, I recall Natalie Clein with Handley as well-played and recorded and comparatively restrained--which has its virtue, especially with such overtly "emotional" music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 02, 2013, 01:10:40 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 02, 2013, 12:00:29 PM
Barenboim's recording with Du Pre was not good -- maudlin, indulgent to the point of sappiness. I just listened to some of this new one via Mog and thought it erred on the indulgent side also, and seemed limp. Better is Du Pre/Barbirolli.  Better yet is Tortelier/Boult. Among more recent recordings, I recall Natalie Clein with Handley as well-played and recorded and comparatively restrained--which has its virtue, especially with such overtly "emotional" music.

Most fascinating of all, and my out-and-out personal favourite: Beatrice Harrison (regularly Elgar's cellist of choice), with Elgar himself conducting, in 1928, and of far, far better audio quality than one might suppose.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AqnNFyZ2L._SY355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 03, 2013, 06:09:55 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 02, 2013, 01:10:40 PM
Most fascinating of all, and my out-and-out personal favourite: Beatrice Harrison (regularly Elgar's cellist of choice), with Elgar himself conducting, in 1928, and of far, far better audio quality than one might suppose.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AqnNFyZ2L._SY355_.jpg)
Is that the same one in the EMI set?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 03, 2013, 07:35:26 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 02, 2013, 01:10:40 PM
Most fascinating of all, and my out-and-out personal favourite: Beatrice Harrison (regularly Elgar's cellist of choice), with Elgar himself conducting, in 1928, and of far, far better audio quality than one might suppose.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AqnNFyZ2L._SY355_.jpg)

Listened to this last night, Elgarian is right, good audio quality, and performances that require a listen from Elgar fans.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 03, 2013, 07:59:34 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on June 03, 2013, 06:09:55 AM
Is that the same one in the EMI set?

It's the same original recording (only one electrical recording of Beatrice Harrison and Elgar was ever made). I don't know how much the various remasterings might differ from each other in detail, but all the versions I've heard have been excellent, so I doubt if it matters much which version you might have.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 03, 2013, 08:13:42 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 03, 2013, 07:59:34 AM
It's the same original recording (only one electrical recording of Beatrice Harrison and Elgar was ever made).

Winning!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 03, 2013, 11:29:23 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 03, 2013, 07:59:34 AM
It's the same original recording (only one electrical recording of Beatrice Harrison and Elgar was ever made). I don't know how much the various remasterings might differ from each other in detail, but all the versions I've heard have been excellent, so I doubt if it matters much which version you might have.
Ok. THanks! I have that set on my wish list, so didn't want to duplicate.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on August 20, 2013, 08:17:05 PM
Looks like a new Cello Concerto recording from Harmonia Mundi is on the horizon:

[asin]B00COU06K8[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on August 22, 2013, 10:33:38 AM
I was delighted to hear a fine performance of the Enigma Variations in London last night. BBC SO/Oramo
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kyjo on September 04, 2013, 05:41:24 PM
Due out soon:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/607/MI0003607811.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Pentatone recordings are generally of a very high standard (especially in regard to audio quality), but I'm going to wait for some reviews (in regards to the performances) on this one before rushing out to buy it. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on September 04, 2013, 05:54:06 PM
Quote from: kyjo on September 04, 2013, 05:41:24 PM
Due out soon:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/607/MI0003607811.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Pentatone recordings are generally of a very high standard (especially in regard to audio quality), but I'm going to wait for some reviews (in regards to the performances) on this one before rushing out to buy it. :)

This image isn't working for me.

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/pentatoneptc5186472.jpg)

Elgar: The Dream of Gerontius & Symphony No. 1
Elgar:
The Dream of Gerontius, Op. 38
Peter Auty (tenor), Michelle Breedt (mezzo soprano) & John Hancock (baritone)
with Collegium Vocale Gent
Symphony No. 1 in A flat major, Op. 55
Royal Flemish Philharmonic, Edo de Waart
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on September 04, 2013, 07:01:27 PM
Quote from: kyjo on September 04, 2013, 05:41:24 PM
Due out soon:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/607/MI0003607811.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Pentatone recordings are generally of a very high standard (especially in regard to audio quality), but I'm going to wait for some reviews (in regards to the performances) on this one before rushing out to buy it. :)

Nice to have Symphony No. 1 attached to this recording. Not that I'm in any need for another 1st mind you. :) I have mixed feelings about Pentatone's recordings. On one hand, I think their audio quality is top-notch and overall ambience of their recordings is quite warm, but, on the other hand, I think very little of their recorded catalog. I think they tend to play it 'safe' to often just to make a sell and that's fine, but they're not a label that's adventurous and for this I can't give them a complete endorsement.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kyjo on September 05, 2013, 02:55:50 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 04, 2013, 07:01:27 PM
Nice to have Symphony No. 1 attached to this recording. Not that I'm in any need for another 1st mind you. :) I have mixed feelings about Pentatone's recordings. On one hand, I think their audio quality is top-notch and overall ambience of their recordings is quite warm, but, on the other hand, I think very little of their recorded catalog. I think they tend to play it 'safe' to often just to make a sell and that's fine, but they're not a label that's adventurous and for this I can't give them a complete endorsement.

Let me first clarify that I was not praising Pentatone to the hills in my first post and that I completely agree with what you say, John. As a collector of lesser-known music, Pentatone is not a label I buy from often. Even so, I enjoy the recordings that I do have from this label. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on September 05, 2013, 04:46:59 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 22, 2013, 10:33:38 AM
I was delighted to hear a fine performance of the Enigma Variations in London last night. BBC SO/Oramo
When I moved back to Texas from London in 2011, the last concert I went to was an Enigma Variations Prom with the BBC PO and Vassily Sinaisky. They included the optional organ part in the finale, which to my mind is so good it shouldn't be optional!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 05, 2013, 05:38:43 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 05, 2013, 04:46:59 AM
When I moved back to Texas from London in 2011, the last concert I went to was an Enigma Variations Prom with the BBC PO and Vassily Sinaisky. They included the optional organ part in the finale, which to my mind is so good it shouldn't be optional!

Brian, which available recording of Enigma displays the most prominent organ, I think all of my 6-7 recordings don't have the organ and I really would like to have one.
Also, I should've added a "good" performance of Enigma with the organ.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on September 05, 2013, 06:00:23 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 05, 2013, 05:38:43 AM
Brian, which available recording of Enigma displays the most prominent organ, I think all of my 6-7 recordings don't have the organ and I really would like to have one.
Also, I should've added a "good" performance of Enigma with the organ.

The first place I heard it was this very enjoyable CD:

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/SIGCD168.jpg)

Philharmonia & Andrew Davis on Signum, in case the image doesn't show up. I listen to it fairly regularly for the organ alone, so yeah, probably a worthy add to your collection! (Puts the disc on right now.) (EDIT: Hmmmmm listening again I can't help wondering if there's another recording where the organ is more "forward"...)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 05, 2013, 06:26:37 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 05, 2013, 06:00:23 AM
The first place I heard it was this very enjoyable CD:

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/SIGCD168.jpg)

Philharmonia & Andrew Davis on Signum, in case the image doesn't show up. I listen to it fairly regularly for the organ alone, so yeah, probably a worthy add to your collection! (Puts the disc on right now.) (EDIT: Hmmmmm listening again I can't help wondering if there's another recording where the organ is more "forward"...)

Cool, thanks for the rec, Brian.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on September 05, 2013, 06:27:13 AM
Quote from: kyjo on September 05, 2013, 02:55:50 AM
Let me first clarify that I was not praising Pentatone to the hills in my first post and that I completely agree with what you say, John. As a collector of lesser-known music, Pentatone is not a label I buy from often. Even so, I enjoy the recordings that I do have from this label. :)

I know you weren't, Kyle. I was just making a comment. Nothing more, nothing less. I do feel, however, rather opposite of you. I haven't really enjoyed any of the Pentatone recordings in my collection. If they ever devote their energies to Latin American music, then I might reconsider them. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 05, 2013, 07:09:48 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 05, 2013, 06:00:23 AM
Philharmonia & Andrew Davis on Signum, in case the image doesn't show up. I listen to it fairly regularly for the organ alone, so yeah, probably a worthy add to your collection! (Puts the disc on right now.) (EDIT: Hmmmmm listening again I can't help wondering if there's another recording where the organ is more "forward"...)

I've been listening to some of my Enigma recordings, trying to hear the organ. I think it's in Davis's earlier BBC performance too (not strikingly prominent though). I don't hear an organ in either Boult (LSO) or Solti (Chicago) recordings. I'll continue to my other Engimas after I finish the complete Solti Enigma (his finale made me want to hear the whole).

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2013, 02:48:20 AM
Quote from: Annie on September 05, 2013, 10:07:13 AM
Maybe you can hear this guy's organ  :D

Yeah, I can definitely hear it in that recording  ;)


Quote from: Annie on September 05, 2013, 10:07:13 AM
boult/BBCSO 29March1971, barbirolli/halle, stern/kcso, slatkin/LPO

Thanks. Other than an LP of the Barbirolli, I don't have any of those in my collection. The CDs I do have are listed below. Those I could identify positively as having an organ are in bold. I listened again to A. Davis, this time at much higher volume. No organ  :(  Sinopoli has the most tummy rumbling bass; Bernstein the most prominent higher notes.

Bernstein/BBC
Sinopoli/Phil
Menuhin/RPO
Boult/LSO
Solti/Chicago
Barbirolli/Philh
Davis A/BBC
Monteux/LSO

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on October 08, 2013, 08:36:55 PM
Hmmm....this thread has been pretty quiet lately. Time to shake things up a bit. I just bought this:

(http://ml.naxos.jp/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/BIS-1879.jpg)

I heard some of this via NML and really was enchanted with it or the 15 minutes that I heard of it. Very beautiful recording. Can't wait it get it in my hands and blast it through the stereo system.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 09:10:59 AM
A good documentary that's been graciously uploaded:

http://www.youtube.com/v/3V904QpK-Bw

The excerpt from The Apostles (Gardner conducting) is bone-chilling and quite powerful. I thought they went on a little too long with discussing Sospiri. Not that it's not a gorgeous work, but enough is enough already.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 23, 2013, 02:29:33 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 09:10:59 AM
A good documentary that's been graciously uploaded:

I just finished watching it. A good document indeed. Thanks for the link MI!  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2013, 02:32:25 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 23, 2013, 02:29:33 PM
I just finished watching it. A good document indeed. Thanks for the link MI!  ;)

You're welcome. Elgar was a such a complicated personality as his music demonstrated, so this Bridcut documentary helped give more of an insight into the man behind the mask (no pun intended).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2013, 05:57:11 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 05, 2013, 06:00:23 AM
The first place I heard it was this very enjoyable CD:

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/SIGCD168.jpg)

Philharmonia & Andrew Davis on Signum, in case the image doesn't show up. I listen to it fairly regularly for the organ alone, so yeah, probably a worthy add to your collection! (Puts the disc on right now.) (EDIT: Hmmmmm listening again I can't help wondering if there's another recording where the organ is more "forward"...)

The organ aside, this is a fantastic performance of Engima Variations and could very well be the best performance I've heard and I own most of them. 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on December 23, 2013, 06:53:46 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 23, 2013, 02:32:25 PM
an insight into the man behind the mustache
fixed  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2013, 07:00:13 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 23, 2013, 06:53:46 PM
fixed  ;)

I like it! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 24, 2013, 01:35:59 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 23, 2013, 02:32:25 PM
You're welcome. Elgar was a such a complicated personality as his music demonstrated, so this Bridcut documentary helped give more of an insight into the man behind the mask mustache (no pun intended).

For some reason I have always (ever since I heard Enigma Variations on radio December 1996 and was blown away) connected with Elgar's music very strongly even if I don't know every aspect of Elgar's personality or life*. For me it's weird that many people struggle with Elgar's music but then again, we are different and I do struggle with tons of other composers.  :-\

* Of course I do know quite a lot about Elgar.
I even did a presentation of Elgar in Swedish in my
University language studies. It was fun to "educate"
other students about Elgar in foreign language.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 24, 2013, 06:38:51 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 24, 2013, 01:35:59 AM
For some reason I have always (ever since I heard Enigma Variations on radio December 1996 and was blown away) connected with Elgar's music very strongly even if I don't know every aspect of Elgar's personality or life*. For me it's weird that many people struggle with Elgar's music but then again, we are different and I do struggle with tons of other composers.  :-\

* Of course I do know quite a lot about Elgar.
I even did a presentation of Elgar in Swedish in my
University language studies. It was fun to "educate"
other students about Elgar in foreign language.  :)


I understand what you're saying. I think the work that really opened me up to Elgar was the Cello Concerto. As this was years ago, I can't quite remember what I heard before the CC, but I just remember being floored by the heart-on-sleeve, intimacy of the music. When Symphony No. 2 finally clicked with me, I began to realize that this was such a complex musical personality, and I'm sure this has been said many times before, but, on one hand, you have this masculine, robust exterior of the music, but, on the other hand, you have this private emotional world where it feels like the composer is yearning for something that's unattainable.

I was listening to Symphony No. 1 last night, and before I liked the work but thought it's predecessor was so much better, but, now, I'm having second thoughts and my thinking now is this is just as remarkable of a symphony as the 2nd.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 24, 2013, 06:41:33 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 08, 2013, 08:36:55 PM
Hmmm....this thread has been pretty quiet lately. Time to shake things up a bit. I just bought this:

(http://ml.naxos.jp/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/BIS-1879.jpg)

I heard some of this via NML and really was enchanted with it or the 15 minutes that I heard of it. Very beautiful recording. Can't wait it get it in my hands and blast it through the stereo system.

It's on my Christmas list! Shall be interesting to hear a non-British orchestra and conductor in this piece, wish it wasn't so rare! Need to hear the Svetlanov still... :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 24, 2013, 06:46:57 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 24, 2013, 06:41:33 AM
It's on my Christmas list! Shall be interesting to hear a non-British orchestra and conductor in this piece, wish it wasn't so rare! Need to hear the Svetlanov still... :)

I think you'll enjoy what Oramo brings to the table, Daniel. It's not an emotional reading per se, but it has it's moments of intensity. I think where Oramo excels the most is in the orchestral balancing and being able to give the music a clarity that you don't always get in the more highly charged performances. He certainly is a distinguished Elgarian, so I'm hoping there is more to come from Oramo in the future. Of course, the Royal Stockholm Philharmonic play phenomenally well and the BIS audio quality is crystalline.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 24, 2013, 08:31:46 PM
I'm listening to The Kingdom for the first time tonight and this is really an amazing work. Anyone else here heard this work? Any thoughts on it? I own the Boult and Elder performances, but I'm listening to the Elder tonight.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 25, 2013, 03:58:24 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 24, 2013, 06:38:51 AM

I understand what you're saying. I think the work that really opened me up to Elgar was the Cello Concerto. As this was years ago, I can't quite remember what I heard before the CC, but I just remember being floored by the heart-on-sleeve, intimacy of the music. When Symphony No. 2 finally clicked with me, I began to realize that this was such a complex musical personality, and I'm sure this has been said many times before, but, on one hand, you have this masculine, robust exterior of the music, but, on the other hand, you have this private emotional world where it feels like the composer is yearning for something that's unattainable.

I was listening to Symphony No. 1 last night, and before I liked the work but thought it's predecessor was so much better, but, now, I'm having second thoughts and my thinking now is this is just as remarkable of a symphony as the 2nd.

I heard the Cello Concerto after I had heard Elgar's two Symphonies and Violin Concerto. So, the Cello Concerto was a bit "anti-climax" for me (the performance was Kliegel on Naxos, not Jacqueline du Pre). It's a brilliant Cello Concerto, but I rank quite many of Elgar's works above it. It is kind of "Elgar light, but emotionally heavy", which explains why people can relate to it so well even if they find Elgar a bombastic composer (anyone calling Elgar bombastic doesn't understand much about his music).

For me Op. 63 is Elgar's best symphony, but Op. 55 is almost as magnificent. The first time I heard them I liked them a lot, but of course my understanding of the works got better and better with each subsequent listening. After 6 or 7 listenings I felt I "understood" the works. I don't think much about, how the works reflect Elgar's complex personality. They simply are the greatest symphonic music I have ever heard. Maybe I am just as complex personality, since relating with this music goes so naturally for me? I mean, aren't WE ALL torn apart by internal conflicts, not only "enigmatic artists" like Elgar? In my opinion it takes tons of prejudice, hypocrisy, self-delusion and ignorance not to like the kind of music Elgar wrote, but that's me and I am known to have outlandish views.

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 24, 2013, 08:31:46 PM
I'm listening to The Kingdom for the first time tonight and this is really an amazing work. Anyone else here heard this work? Any thoughts on it? I own the Boult and Elder performances, but I'm listening to the Elder tonight.

The Kingdom is one of Elgar's greatest works imho! I rank The Apostles Elgar's best oratorio followed closely by The Kingdom. Then comes Gerontius.

I only have Boult and I love the performance deeply (only the "not-so-crystal-clean" sound is a tiny minus about it).

I understand why both The Apostles and The Kingdom aren't so popular works. Most of the time (and these are long works!) the music seems dead and boring to a impatient listener, but it isn't if you understand Elgar's music. The music is full of life when you pay attention to all the little things that are happening here and there. It's like sitting by a lake watching the surface of the water ripple, sparkling the reflecting sunlight. It's relaxing and serene. Suddenly you notice dragonflies "dancing" above the water and you sense deep richness in this peaceful moment. Then you have all those great melodies and themes spinning around each other in a way only Elgar seems to have mastered. These oratorious are wonderlands to me and sadly overlooked.

I want to hear Elder too.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 25, 2013, 05:42:28 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 25, 2013, 03:58:24 AM
I heard the Cello Concerto after I had heard Elgar's two Symphonies and Violin Concerto. So, the Cello Concerto was a bit "anti-climax" for me (the performance was Kliegel on Naxos, not Jacqueline du Pre). It's a brilliant Cello Concerto, but I rank quite many of Elgar's works above it. It is kind of "Elgar light, but emotionally heavy", which explains why people can relate to it so well even if they find Elgar a bombastic composer (anyone calling Elgar bombastic doesn't understand much about his music).

For me Op. 63 is Elgar's best symphony, but Op. 55 is almost as magnificent. The first time I heard them I liked them a lot, but of course my understanding of the works got better and better with each subsequent listening. After 6 or 7 listenings I felt I "understood" the works. I don't think much about, how the works reflect Elgar's complex personality. They simply are the greatest symphonic music I have ever heard. Maybe I am just as complex personality, since relating with this music goes so naturally for me? I mean, aren't WE ALL torn apart by internal conflicts, not only "enigmatic artists" like Elgar? In my opinion it takes tons of prejudice, hypocrisy, self-delusion and ignorance not to like the kind of music Elgar wrote, but that's me and I am known to have outlandish views.

Anyone who thinks Elgar is a 'bombastic' composer has already missed the point and will never understand his music anyway. So forget them. :) Any composer of any significance have detractors. Some may listen to the Pomp & Circumstance Marches and think this is the only music Elgar composed and of course they would be ignorant and, in the end, look like a fool.

Well, Symphony No. 1 finally has opened up for me in a big way, but I still feel that Symphony No. 2 is quite possibly Elgar's greatest symphonic utterance. That symphony just has it all. As Elgar wrote about the symphony, "I have written out my soul." I'm starting to really believe it, because every measure is piece of him torn out. That theme towards the beginning of the Larghetto movement where the strings just come alive I always find myself humming all day long. Such a gorgeous movement, but the whole symphony is a feast for the ears.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 25, 2013, 03:58:24 AMThe Kingdom is one of Elgar's greatest works imho! I rank The Apostles Elgar's best oratorio followed closely by The Kingdom. Then comes Gerontius.

I only have Boult and I love the performance deeply (only the "not-so-crystal-clean" sound is a tiny minus about it).

I understand why both The Apostles and The Kingdom aren't so popular works. Most of the time (and these are long works!) the music seems dead and boring to a impatient listener, but it isn't if you understand Elgar's music. The music is full of life when you pay attention to all the little things that are happening here and there. It's like sitting by a lake watching the surface of the water ripple, sparkling the reflecting sunlight. It's relaxing and serene. Suddenly you notice dragonflies "dancing" above the water and you sense deep richness in this peaceful moment. Then you have all those great melodies and themes spinning around each other in a way only Elgar seems to have mastered. These oratorious are wonderlands to me and sadly overlooked.

I want to hear Elder too.

Very cool description. 8) I'm really digging The Kingdom. I haven't finished it (yet), but everything about it is grand, majestic, and sweeping. After hearing a lot of this music, I can't understand why this work is so neglected or seldom discussed. I'm hoping to finish it sometime this morning.

Merry Christmas!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 25, 2013, 04:26:24 PM
I've got to report a few thoughts about The Kingdom. My first obvious thought is I thought it was absolutely enthralling. Such a plethora of emotions captured throughout the work. My favorite part of the whole oratorio, there were many of them, but one that I actually repeated several times in a row was Part IV. The Sign Of Healing: ''The Sun Goeth Down''. This particular movement which lasts a little over eight minutes is chockfull of musical ingenuity and a deep, emotional lyricism. I'm really looking forward to hearing The Apostles now. In the meantime, I'll probably give Elder's Dream Of Gerontius a spin tonight or tomorrow night.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 26, 2013, 03:22:23 AM
I'm glad you have been enjoying The Kingdom MI. Yes, you would enjoy The Apostles too for sure.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2013, 07:19:39 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 26, 2013, 03:22:23 AM
I'm glad you have been enjoying The Kingdom MI. Yes, you would enjoy The Apostles too for sure.  ;)

Excellent. I'm currently listening to The Kingdom for the second time and it just gets better and better. I just love this composer's music so much. Would you say that Elgar is your absolute favorite composer, 71 dB?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 28, 2013, 08:21:49 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 27, 2013, 07:19:39 PM
Excellent. I'm currently listening to The Kingdom for the second time and it just gets better and better. I just love this composer's music so much. Would you say that Elgar is your absolute favorite composer, 71 dB?

Elgar's music tends to reveal it's subtleties slowly. I'm really glad his music is having the effect on you it has on us elgarians.  ;)

Yes, Elgar is my "absolute" favorite composer MI, but J. S. Bach in VERY close.

How many works by Elgar have you heard MI?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 28, 2013, 04:43:40 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 28, 2013, 08:21:49 AM
Elgar's music tends to reveal it's subtleties slowly. I'm really glad his music is having the effect on you it has on us elgarians.  ;)

Yes, Elgar is my "absolute" favorite composer MI, but J. S. Bach in VERY close.

How many works by Elgar have you heard MI?

This is great to hear, 71 dB. How many Elgar works have I heard? Hmmm...I'll have to get back to you on this one. I really should, like Brian does, keep a journal of what I've heard by this and that composer, but, since I don't, I'll have to think about it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 28, 2013, 05:33:12 PM
Okay, here goes nothing, of the orchestral/concertante works, I'm pretty sure I've heard almost everything:

Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2
Falstaff
In the South (Alassio)
Sospiri
Enigma Variations
Elegy
Serenade for Strings
Cockaigne Overture (In London Town)
Pomp & Circumstance Marches Nos. 1-5
The Sanguine Fan
Polonia
Carillion
Une voix dans le désert
Sursum Corda
Rosemary
Carissima
Le drapeau belge
Froissart Overture
May Song
Three Bavarian Dances
Chanson de Matin
Chanson de Nuit
Salut d'amour
Three Charateristic Pieces
Minuet
Introduction & Allegro
Severn Suite
Nursery Suite
The Wand of Youth Suites 1 & 2
The Starlight Express Suite
King Arthur Suite
The Crown of India Suite
Dream Children
Romance for Bassoon and Orchestra
Cello Concerto
Violin Concerto


Works with vocal soloists and/or chorus w/ orchestra I've heard -

Sea Pictures
The Dream of Gerontius
The Apostles
The Kingdom
Coronation Ode
The Spirit of England
The Black Knight
The Music Makers
The Starlight Express
From the Bavarian Highlands


The chamber works I've heard -

String Quartet
Violin Sonata
Piano Quintet


I think that about covers it. 8)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 29, 2013, 02:45:47 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 28, 2013, 04:43:40 PM
How many Elgar works have I heard? Hmmm...

Well, your list of Elgar works you have heard is longer than I expected (based on the fact that you just got into The Kingdom).

The Apostles is definitely something you should listen to.

It seems you haven't heard Elgar's 3rd Symphony elaborated by Anthony Payne? I don't rate it as high as the first 2 symphonies, but it is a great symphony nevertheless. Both Andrew Davies on NMC and Paul Daniel on Naxos are very good performances but I haven't heard others.

The Light of Life, Op. 29 is missing too. If Elgar wrote a lesser oratorio, this is it, but it's a nice work anyway.

Caractacus, Op. 35 is my favorite of Elgar's cantatas composed before 1900. Then comes (Scenes from the Saga of) King Olaf, Op. 30 These are better works than the The Black Knight, which really is lesser Elgar imo.

You have Elgar's chamber music covered. Elgar is not known for solo piano music but there's no reason to avoid it. Solo piano version of Enigma Variations sounds cool and Concert Allegro Op. 41 is great.

Then there's of course the organ works, part-songs, violin miniatures etc. Elgar wrote tons of short, obscure small works. Even I haven't heard ALL of them.  ;D





Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 29, 2013, 05:08:03 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 29, 2013, 02:45:47 AM
Well, your list of Elgar works you have heard is longer than I expected (based on the fact that you just got into The Kingdom).

The Apostles is definitely something you should listen to.

It seems you haven't heard Elgar's 3rd Symphony elaborated by Anthony Payne? I don't rate it as high as the first 2 symphonies, but it is a great symphony nevertheless. Both Andrew Davies on NMC and Paul Daniel on Naxos are very good performances but I haven't heard others.

The Light of Life, Op. 29 is missing too. If Elgar wrote a lesser oratorio, this is it, but it's a nice work anyway.

Caractacus, Op. 35 is my favorite of Elgar's cantatas composed before 1900. Then comes (Scenes from the Saga of) King Olaf, Op. 30 These are better works than the The Black Knight, which really is lesser Elgar imo.

You have Elgar's chamber music covered. Elgar is not known for solo piano music but there's no reason to avoid it. Solo piano version of Enigma Variations sounds cool and Concert Allegro Op. 41 is great.

Then there's of course the organ works, part-songs, violin miniatures etc. Elgar wrote tons of short, obscure small works. Even I haven't heard ALL of them.  ;D

Well, usually with me, I get into a composer's orchestral works and then work my through their oeuvre. Yes, Caractacus and The Light of Life are on my wish list of works to explore after The Apostles. I'll probably give Symphony No. 3 a spin sometime (I have Colin Davis' LSO Live performance), but I've been hesitant with it for the fact that it wasn't officially completed by Elgar and only left behind in sketches. King Olaf is another one on my list to explore.

Yes, I'll definitely listen to The Apostles whenever my Elder/Halle recording arrives. I own Boult's performance of it, but I've been quite dissatisfied with his Elgar performances. Boult's later performances of Elgar remain soulless to my ears, but I'm sure many other people like Boult in Elgar.

Thanks for your suggestions on where to go next. 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 30, 2013, 02:06:21 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 29, 2013, 05:08:03 AM
Well, usually with me, I get into a composer's orchestral works and then work my through their oeuvre.

I see. I usually try to sample different kind of works in the beginning when exploring a new composer.

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 29, 2013, 05:08:03 AMYes, Caractacus and The Light of Life are on my wish list of works to explore after The Apostles. I'll probably give Symphony No. 3 a spin sometime (I have Colin Davis' LSO Live performance), but I've been hesitant with it for the fact that it wasn't officially completed by Elgar and only left behind in sketches. King Olaf is another one on my list to explore.

Anthony Payne did well with the 3rd Symphony. He did the elaboration "paynestakingly".  ;D There are moments here and there that doesn't feel 100 % Elgar, but most of the work sounds very much Elgar. The sympnony contains very beautiful music, that's why Anthony Payne wanted to elaborate Elgar's sketches, so people could hear Elgar's last musical ideas. The second movement (Scherzo) of the symphony is my favorite (especially in the Andrew David/BBC SO performance). Who cares who started and who finished it when music is that good?

I have Elgar's Piano Concerto "realised for performance" by Robert Walker and I have to say that's a kind of mess purists may want to stay away, but the 3rd symphony is too good to ignore. It's almost like ignoring Mozart's Requiem for being completed by Süssmayr.

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 29, 2013, 05:08:03 AMYes, I'll definitely listen to The Apostles whenever my Elder/Halle recording arrives. I own Boult's performance of it, but I've been quite dissatisfied with his Elgar performances. Boult's later performances of Elgar remain soulless to my ears, but I'm sure many other people like Boult in Elgar.

Oh, to me Boult is great with Elgar. The only problem I have is the sound. I did listen to Boult's The Kingdom inspired by your enthusiam and it was the sound that irritated me. Noise and even strong harmonic distortion at places! That's why I want to hear Elder's sonically clean performances.

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 29, 2013, 05:08:03 AMThanks for your suggestions on where to go next. 8)

You are welcome. Thanks for the interesting conversation!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 30, 2013, 04:53:21 AM
Was considering a poll, but I dont want to make this a contest...

Who is your favorite(s) 1-2 punch with Elgar's recorded symphonies?

Sinopoli's 2nd with Philharmonia is special, very dramatic, very operatic. I've just recently been accepting his recording of the 1st as equally fantastic. I was not originally sold on Sinopoli's 1st however, as I found the 1st and 2nd symphonies to have such contrasting musical cores. Speaking of contrast, how about Solti? Perhaps Solti's tempi are more accurate with Elgar's original ideas, and it can be a most jarring experience if you're used to Sinopoli or Tate's recordings. But Solti's performances are lightning infused, sharp but without shying away from the emotional draw. I've really come to appreciate Elder's duo with Halle, especially the 2nd which belongs along side any. Barbirolli/Phil is also great. Slatkin has a dynamite 1st, but a 2nd that fizzles, Tate is the opposite. There are more I haven't mentioned that deserve to be...

If I had to pick one (and this is always subject to change, as with any 'favorite' topic), I would go with Sinopoli. He seems to pull all the right strings for me when it comes to Elgar's symphonies. And the Philharmonia plays perfectly presented in a very rich and full DG sound.


Please respond, criticize, or praise. Either way I would love to hear (read) others thoughts. Thanks!  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 30, 2013, 05:30:13 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 30, 2013, 04:53:21 AM
Was considering a poll, but I dont want to make this a contest...

Who is your favorite(s) 1-2 punch with Elgar's recorded symphonies? [

I have Solti, Sinopoli, Slatkin, C. Davs, A. Davis, Boult, Tate and Barbirolli. (Of the other conductors who have recorded both symphonies I only have Elder 1, Barenboim 1, Previn 1, Thomson 1, Haitink 2 and none of Handley, the Penguin's favorite).


Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 30, 2013, 04:53:21 AM
Sinopoli's 2nd with Philharmonia is special, very dramatic, very operatic. I've just recently been accepting his recording of the 1st as equally fantastic. I was not originally sold on Sinopoli's

My feelings exactly (surprise  ;) ). Loved Sinopoli's Second from my first hearing but was initially disappointed with his First. I was expecting a radical interpretation (like his Second) but found it rather ordinary. But the last couple of times I've listened to it, it has grown on me (losing the preconception has opened my ears, I suppose).

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 30, 2013, 04:53:21 AM
If I had to pick one (and this is always subject to change, as with any 'favorite' topic), I would go with Sinopoli. He seems to pull all the right strings for me when it comes to Elgar's symphonies. And the Philharmonia plays perfectly presented in a very rich and full DG sound.

I love Previn's First so much I'm left wondering why I've never purchased his Second. But until that happens, I'm with you: Sinopoli with Boult and Tate runners-up.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 30, 2013, 05:31:33 AM
Interesting, gents, thanks.  (I know too small a sampling to offer an opinion.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 30, 2013, 06:25:49 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 30, 2013, 02:06:21 AM
I see. I usually try to sample different kind of works in the beginning when exploring a new composer.

To each their own. 8)

Quote from: 71 dB on December 30, 2013, 02:06:21 AMAnthony Payne did well with the 3rd Symphony. He did the elaboration "paynestakingly".  ;D There are moments here and there that doesn't feel 100 % Elgar, but most of the work sounds very much Elgar. The sympnony contains very beautiful music, that's why Anthony Payne wanted to elaborate Elgar's sketches, so people could hear Elgar's last musical ideas. The second movement (Scherzo) of the symphony is my favorite (especially in the Andrew David/BBC SO performance). Who cares who started and who finished it when music is that good?

I have Elgar's Piano Concerto "realised for performance" by Robert Walker and I have to say that's a kind of mess purists may want to stay away, but the 3rd symphony is too good to ignore. It's almost like ignoring Mozart's Requiem for being completed by Süssmayr.

I'm quite interested in Symphony No. 3 now thanks to you. So if I become addicted to it, I'll just blame you. ;) :D But, seriously, I will definitely give it a listen. As a result, I bought Andrew Davis' recording with the BBC SO on NMC. I already owned Colin Davis' performance, but I'm quite keen to hear A. Davis now.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 30, 2013, 02:06:21 AMOh, to me Boult is great with Elgar. The only problem I have is the sound. I did listen to Boult's The Kingdom inspired by your enthusiam and it was the sound that irritated me. Noise and even strong harmonic distortion at places! That's why I want to hear Elder's sonically clean performances.

You will love Elder's Gerontius and Kingdom. Fantastic performances.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 30, 2013, 02:06:21 AMYou are welcome. Thanks for the interesting conversation!

8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 30, 2013, 06:42:33 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 30, 2013, 04:53:21 AM
Was considering a poll, but I dont want to make this a contest...

Who is your favorite(s) 1-2 punch with Elgar's recorded symphonies?

Sinopoli's 2nd with Philharmonia is special, very dramatic, very operatic. I've just recently been accepting his recording of the 1st as equally fantastic. I was not originally sold on Sinopoli's 1st however, as I found the 1st and 2nd symphonies to have such contrasting musical cores. Speaking of contrast, how about Solti? Perhaps Solti's tempi are more accurate with Elgar's original ideas, and it can be a most jarring experience if you're used to Sinopoli or Tate's recordings. But Solti's performances are lightning infused, sharp but without shying away from the emotional draw. I've really come to appreciate Elder's duo with Halle, especially the 2nd which belongs along side any. Barbirolli/Phil is also great. Slatkin has a dynamite 1st, but a 2nd that fizzles, Tate is the opposite. There are more I haven't mentioned that deserve to be...

If I had to pick one (and this is always subject to change, as with any 'favorite' topic), I would go with Sinopoli. He seems to pull all the right strings for me when it comes to Elgar's symphonies. And the Philharmonia plays perfectly presented in a very rich and full DG sound.


Please respond, criticize, or praise. Either way I would love to hear (read) others thoughts. Thanks!  ;D

For me, I'm still enamored with Andrew Davis' set with the Philharmonia Orchestra on Signum Classics. This blows his earlier performances with the BBC SO on Warner away IMHO. I also enjoy Haitink (also with the Philharmonia), Elder (even more so nowadays), and Barbirolli. I never cared for Solti, Sinopoli, and Boult's earlier performances reissued on the Lyrita label were much better than his EMI remakes. I'm pretty set on these symphonies now, but I ordered Previn's on Philips the other night, so it will be interesting to see how it stacks up to my favorites.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 30, 2013, 07:26:47 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2013, 06:25:49 AM
To each their own. 8)

I'm quite interested in Symphony No. 3 now thanks to you. So if I become addicted to it, I'll just blame you. ;) :D But, seriously, I will definitely give it a listen. As a result, I bought Andrew Davis' recording with the BBC SO on NMC. I already owned Colin Davis' performance, but I'm quite keen to hear A. Davis now.


I agree with what has been said about the 3rd. It's a work I absolutely adore, the second subject of the first movement surely has to be one of Elgar's most lyrical, beautiful melodies owed to Vera of course. The C.Davis is a great recording, Daniel is good too, but have not heard A.Davis.. Otaka I have also not heard but would be interested to....
Would be interested to hear your thoughts on the 3rd, John.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 30, 2013, 08:14:07 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2013, 06:25:49 AM
To each their own. 8)

Yes, but it depends on the composer what kind of exploration strategy works best. I must say my exploration of Elgar was pretty random, not systematic in anyway.

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2013, 06:25:49 AMI'm quite interested in Symphony No. 3 now thanks to you. So if I become addicted to it, I'll just blame you. ;) :D But, seriously, I will definitely give it a listen. As a result, I bought Andrew Davis' recording with the BBC SO on NMC. I already owned Colin Davis' performance, but I'm quite keen to hear A. Davis now.

Some addiction is surely possible.  :D Hope you enjoy A. Davis' performance.

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2013, 06:25:49 AMYou will love Elder's Gerontius and Kingdom. Fantastic performances.

I ordered Elder's Gerontius today, perhaps my last order of 2013. That's my fourth Gerontius. Got a good deal, 6.45 euros delivered.

Mail service has been snail service this December. I'm still waiting for a CD I ordered December 2nd!  ::)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 30, 2013, 12:38:11 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 30, 2013, 07:26:47 AM
I agree with what has been said about the 3rd. It's a work I absolutely adore, the second subject of the first movement surely has to be one of Elgar's most lyrical, beautiful melodies owed to Vera of course. The C. Davis is a great recording, Daniel is good too, but have not heard A. Davis.. Otaka I have also not heard but would be interested to....

Would be interested to hear your thoughts on the 3rd, John.

Good to hear, Daniel. I'll probably listen to the 3rd sometime next week as my vacation starts this Saturday and I'll be off from work for an entire week, so I plan on listening to lots of Elgar, RVW, and Walton as well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 30, 2013, 02:54:16 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Listening' thread -

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2013, 02:52:40 PM
And it finally arrived...

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B008OHSQ0M.01.L.jpg)

My jaw is dropped...that's all I'll say for now about The Apostles.

Sir Mark Elder discussing The Apostles -

http://www.youtube.com/v/5cdkd2DEZaA
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 30, 2013, 11:10:36 PM
If you allow MI, I gather your statements about The Apostles here.

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2013, 02:54:16 PM
- My jaw is dropped...that's all I'll say for now about The Apostles.

- Such an eargasmic experience.  Listening to Part II: Golgotha right now and loving every minute of it. This work's neglect is unjustifiable as is The Kingdom for that matter. Every Elgar fan needs at least one performance of The Apostles in their collection and if you do decide to get it let it be Elder's recording. I couldn't imagine it getting any better than this.

- Well, The Apostles blew my mind. I'll definitely be revisiting this work along with The Kingdom very soon.

I'm glad you are enjoying The Apostles. I have always (well, 15 years or so) found it almost annoying how much Gerontius gets attention and love (deserved, no doubt about that), while The Apostles and The Kingdom remain rather neglected.

Hopefully these Elder versions can win more people to appreciate these awesome works more.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 31, 2013, 03:41:50 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 30, 2013, 04:53:21 AM
Was considering a poll, but I dont want to make this a contest...

Who is your favorite(s) 1-2 punch with Elgar's recorded symphonies?

Sinopoli's 2nd with Philharmonia is special, very dramatic, very operatic. I've just recently been accepting his recording of the 1st as equally fantastic. I was not originally sold on Sinopoli's 1st however, as I found the 1st and 2nd symphonies to have such contrasting musical cores. Speaking of contrast, how about Solti? Perhaps Solti's tempi are more accurate with Elgar's original ideas, and it can be a most jarring experience if you're used to Sinopoli or Tate's recordings. But Solti's performances are lightning infused, sharp but without shying away from the emotional draw. I've really come to appreciate Elder's duo with Halle, especially the 2nd which belongs along side any. Barbirolli/Phil is also great. Slatkin has a dynamite 1st, but a 2nd that fizzles, Tate is the opposite. There are more I haven't mentioned that deserve to be...

If I had to pick one (and this is always subject to change, as with any 'favorite' topic), I would go with Sinopoli. He seems to pull all the right strings for me when it comes to Elgar's symphonies. And the Philharmonia plays perfectly presented in a very rich and full DG sound.


Please respond, criticize, or praise. Either way I would love to hear (read) others thoughts. Thanks!  ;D
I have all of one recording (Boult) of the pair (though I have heard a few others). I am so satisifed with it that I never felt the urge to get another one (and no sets I have include them either). So others can give a more comparative answer - I can only say the Boult (EMI) is well done.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 31, 2013, 03:51:55 AM
Sui generis, of course, but I suspect Alan will agree that Elgar's own electrical recordings are distinctly special in character.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 31, 2013, 04:12:58 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 31, 2013, 03:41:50 AM
I have all of one recording (Boult) of the pair (though I have heard a few others). I am so satisifed with it that I never felt the urge to get another one (and no sets I have include them either). So others can give a more comparative answer - I can only say the Boult (EMI) is well done.

Neal, if you like the EMI Boult you should give a listen to this live recording from 1976...

[asin]B006VOX7Q8[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 31, 2013, 05:59:32 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 30, 2013, 11:10:36 PM
If you allow MI, I gather your statements about The Apostles here.

I'm glad you are enjoying The Apostles. I have always (well, 15 years or so) found it almost annoying how much Gerontius gets attention and love (deserved, no doubt about that), while The Apostles and The Kingdom remain rather neglected.

Hopefully these Elder versions can win more people to appreciate these awesome works more.

I don't understand these works' neglect to be honest. I mean they're just as inspired and moving as Gerontius and Elder mentioned in his acceptance of the BBC Music Recording of the Year award that making this recording for The Apostles was one of the greatest experiences of his life. In this speech, he also mentioned that he'd been wanted to record Elgar for a very long time and he felt that the Halle Orchestra lost their connection with Elgar once Barbirolli passed away. God bless this conductor for bringing Elgar back to Manchester! 8)

http://www.youtube.com/v/PMFeIBXFqys
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on December 31, 2013, 05:11:16 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 30, 2013, 11:10:36 PM


Hopefully these Elder versions can win more people to appreciate these awesome works more.

If nothing else, the sonics of the Elder recordings must help.  My only other recordings of these works are those contained in the 30CD EMI Collector's Edition box--Ledger for Light of Life, Boult for the others (and I already had Boult's Gerontius recording before getting the box).  With the Elder recordings, I can at least understand the text being sung, which is not a given with the Boult recordings.  (The EMI box doesn't help, since it doesn't provide texts.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 31, 2013, 05:28:14 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 31, 2013, 05:11:16 PM
If nothing else, the sonics of the Elder recordings must help.  My only other recordings of these works are those contained in the 30CD EMI Collector's Edition box--Ledger for Light of Life, Boult for the others (and I already had Boult's Gerontius recording before getting the box).  With the Elder recordings, I can at least understand the text being sung, which is not a given with the Boult recordings.  (The EMI box doesn't help, since it doesn't provide texts.)

Yes, Elder's recordings do sound fantastic I must say and he handles these large oratorios beautifully. Such a command he has over the soloists, choruses, and orchestra. If you don't own The Apostles or The Kingdom under Elder, do not hesitate, Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on December 31, 2013, 05:38:59 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 31, 2013, 05:28:14 PM
Yes, Elder's recordings do sound fantastic I must say and he handles these large oratorios beautifully. Such a command he has over the soloists, choruses, and orchestra. If you don't own The Apostles or The Kingdom under Elder, do not hesitate, Jeffrey.

Sorry,  I wasn't clear--I have the whole series of Elder/Halle Elgar.  (Unless he's done something since The Apostles.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 31, 2013, 05:48:08 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 31, 2013, 05:38:59 PM
Sorry,  I wasn't clear--I have the whole series of Elder/Halle Elgar.  (Unless he's done something since The Apostles.)

Oh, well excellent! Good to hear! 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 31, 2013, 06:31:16 PM
Forgot to mention that I revisited The Music Makers (Andrew Davis/Jean Rigby/BBC SO) and absolutely loved the work. The ending was especially moving. I have several other performances, but I don't see myself enjoying them as much as I did this Davis performance. Such an endearing performance which conjured up the right atmosphere and Davis provided the most opulent accompaniment for mezzo-soprano Jean Rigby.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 31, 2013, 06:37:56 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 31, 2013, 06:31:16 PM
Forgot to mention that I revisited The Music Makers (Andrew Davis/Jean Rigby/BBC SO) and absolutely loved the work. The ending was especially moving. I have several other performances, but I don't see myself enjoying them as much as I did this Davis performance. Such an endearing performance which conjured up the right atmosphere and Davis provided the most opulent accompaniment for mezzo-soprano Jean Rigby.

Agreed. Great recording and performance. The Music Makers is the first Elgar piece that enticed me to explore his choral works. I love how the ending seems to gently float away, similar to Britten's War Requiem. Such an airy and contemplative moment.

We are the music-makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 31, 2013, 06:43:39 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 31, 2013, 06:37:56 PM
Agreed. Great recording and performance. The Music Makers is the first Elgar piece that enticed me to explore his choral works. I love how the ending seems to gently float away, similar to Britten's War Requiem. Such an airy and contemplative moment.

We are the music-makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.


Agreed, absolutely exquisite.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on January 01, 2014, 01:34:42 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 31, 2013, 06:37:56 PM
Agreed. Great recording and performance. The Music Makers is the first Elgar piece that enticed me to explore his choral works. I love how the ending seems to gently float away, similar to Britten's War Requiem. Such an airy and contemplative moment.

We are the music-makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.

+1 to all that.
I'll be continuing listening to Elder's recordings of the oratorios from Spotify until the 10th at least.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 01, 2014, 03:36:30 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 31, 2013, 05:59:32 AM
I don't understand these works' neglect to be honest. I mean they're just as inspired and moving as Gerontius and Elder mentioned in his acceptance of the BBC Music Recording of the Year award that making this recording for The Apostles was one of the greatest experiences of his life. In this speech, he also mentioned that he'd been wanted to record Elgar for a very long time and he felt that the Halle Orchestra lost their connection with Elgar once Barbirolli passed away. God bless this conductor for bringing Elgar back to Manchester! 8)

http://www.youtube.com/v/PMFeIBXFqys

I didn't know Elder's The Apostles won that. I don't care much about awards and Finnish media doesn't give a damn about british classical music awards. However, it's great it did.

I am beginning to respect & admire Sir Mark Elder as a great man.

What does "Halle Orchestra lost their connection with Elgar after Barbirolli passed away" mean? They didn't perform Elgar's works?

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 31, 2013, 05:11:16 PM
If nothing else, the sonics of the Elder recordings must help.  My only other recordings of these works are those contained in the 30CD EMI Collector's Edition box--Ledger for Light of Life, Boult for the others (and I already had Boult's Gerontius recording before getting the box).  With the Elder recordings, I can at least understand the text being sung, which is not a given with the Boult recordings.  (The EMI box doesn't help, since it doesn't provide texts.)

I have Boult's The Apostles and The Kingdom individual releases from 1992/1993 (as well as duplicates in the EMI box) which contain the text. The 30 CD EMI box is a joke when it comes to the booklet.  :-[
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 01, 2014, 07:35:54 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 01, 2014, 03:36:30 AM
I didn't know Elder's The Apostles won that. I don't care much about awards and Finnish media doesn't give a damn about british classical music awards. However, it's great it did.

Despite whatever connotations go along with winning an award such as that BBC Music Award, it's still nice to know that recording won something as it damn well should have anyway IMHO. Glad to see somebody recognized this work and performance.

Quote from: 71 dB on January 01, 2014, 03:36:30 AMI am beginning to respect & admire Sir Mark Elder as a great man.

+1 8)

Quote from: 71 dB on January 01, 2014, 03:36:30 AMWhat does "Halle Orchestra lost their connection with Elgar after Barbirolli passed away" mean? They didn't perform Elgar's works?

I'm not sure what happened between the gap between Barbirolli and Elder as I never have paid that much attention to this orchestra, but Elder feels strongly about Elgar's music and felt the need to bring his music to a newer generation. I applaud his efforts so far.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 01, 2014, 07:38:57 PM
Quote from: North Star on January 01, 2014, 01:34:42 AM
+1 to all that.
I'll be continuing listening to Elder's recordings of the oratorios from Spotify until the 10th at least.

This is good to read. Look forward to your comments about The Apostles and The Kingdom. Already know your opinion of The Dream of Gerontius.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 01, 2014, 08:03:46 PM
Revisited The Kingdom again for the third time and each time I hear this work, I'm even more grateful that Elgar gave his life to music and made it his occupation. The sheer amount of happiness and fulfillment this composer gives me now is beyond reproach.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on January 01, 2014, 08:18:33 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 01, 2014, 07:35:54 PM
I'm not sure what happened between the gap between Barbirolli and Elder as I never have paid that much attention to this orchestra
Stanislaw Skrowaczewski is a pretty good thing that happened; their recorded legacy includes some nice Shostakovich.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 01, 2014, 08:33:21 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 01, 2014, 08:18:33 PM
Stanislaw Skrowaczewski is a pretty good thing that happened; their recorded legacy includes some nice Shostakovich.

Well, I was more or less talking about their history with Elgar not any other composer, but Skrowaczewski did, indeed, perform some fine Shostakovich with the Halle.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2014, 08:09:59 PM
I listened to some of the sketches of Symphony No. 3 and wasn't particularly impressed with it. I actually stopped playing after the second movement. It sounds nothing like Elgar to my ears and I'm beginning to wonder how much tinkering did Anthony Payne actually do? I would say this is a good historical document to have in any Elgar collection, but it's far from great music IMHO. One listen to the previous symphony and you have to think "Surely Elgar would have done more with this work had he actually completed it?" This was constantly running through my mind throughout the first and second movements. I certainly never thought "This is Elgar's shining moment" or "That's fantastic!"
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 11:46:12 AM
Revisited Elder's The Apostles recording again last night and such a superb work and the performance is just exemplary. I need to revisit The Spirit of England, The Music Makers, and The Dream of Gerontius again. I also have been immensely enjoying the Violin Concerto so I'll probably listen to Little/A. Davis performance again which may be my preferred performance of this concerto now.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 05, 2014, 12:17:55 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2014, 08:09:59 PM
I listened to some of the sketches of Symphony No. 3 and wasn't particularly impressed with it. I actually stopped playing after the second movement. It sounds nothing like Elgar to my ears and I'm beginning to wonder how much tinkering did Anthony Payne actually do? I would say this is a good historical document to have in any Elgar collection, but it's far from great music IMHO. One listen to the previous symphony and you have to think "Surely Elgar would have done more with this work had he actually completed it?" This was constantly running through my mind throughout the first and second movements. I certainly never thought "This is Elgar's shining moment" or "That's fantastic!"

That's a shame, John, but fair enough. Don't you think that the second subject of the first movement shows Elgar still beautifully lyrical melodically though? I can't help but love the work, of course it's not of the calibre of the first two and isn't 100% Elgar, but I still find it to be brilliant, and am pleased we get to be treated to moments like that gorgeous second subject of the first movement.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 12:47:30 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 05, 2014, 12:17:55 PM
That's a shame, John, but fair enough. Don't you think that the second subject of the first movement shows Elgar still beautifully lyrical melodically though? I can't help but love the work, of course it's not of the calibre of the first two and isn't 100% Elgar, but I still find it to be brilliant, and am pleased we get to be treated to moments like that gorgeous second subject of the first movement.

I didn't find anything particularly compelling about any of these sketches, Daniel. As for the Davis performance, I suppose it's good, but it's hard to tell with such uninspired music. I'll leave this for the specialists. I don't plan on listening to this monstrosity again for a very long time...if even then. ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 05, 2014, 01:00:05 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 05, 2014, 12:17:55 PM
That's a shame, John, but fair enough. Don't you think that the second subject of the first movement shows Elgar still beautifully lyrical melodically though? I can't help but love the work, of course it's not of the calibre of the first two and isn't 100% Elgar, but I still find it to be brilliant, and am pleased we get to be treated to moments like that gorgeous second subject of the first movement.
I was not a huge fan the first time around, but I have wanted to give this a re-listen and your enthusiasm helped push me to at least listen to the first movement again. So I must say, I have really enjoyed this much more this time around (was probably just in the wrong frame of mind the first time or something). I doubt I will prefer it to either of the first two symphonies, but so glad I didn't give up on the piece. So thanks for providing the motivation.

Oh and PS: That theme you were talking about is outstanding - gorgeous music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 01:01:56 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 05, 2014, 01:00:05 PMSo thanks for providing the motivation.

No problem! ;) :P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 04:57:53 PM
Would I be overstepping my bounds if I said that Andrew Davis and Mark Elder are our greatest living Elgarians right now? 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2014, 07:30:44 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2014, 08:09:59 PM
I listened to some of the sketches of Symphony No. 3 and wasn't particularly impressed with it. I actually stopped playing after the second movement. It sounds nothing like Elgar to my ears and I'm beginning to wonder how much tinkering did Anthony Payne actually do? I would say this is a good historical document to have in any Elgar collection, but it's far from great music IMHO. One listen to the previous symphony and you have to think "Surely Elgar would have done more with this work had he actually completed it?" This was constantly running through my mind throughout the first and second movements. I certainly never thought "This is Elgar's shining moment" or "That's fantastic!"

Sorry to hear this MI. It definitely isn't Elgar's shining moment. More like "Elgar shines even when elaborated by Anthony Payne."
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 07:47:09 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2014, 07:30:44 AM
Sorry to hear this MI. It definitely isn't Elgar's shining moment. More like "Elgar shines even when elaborated by Anthony Payne."

Well, it's no problem, 71 dB. On a lighter note, I did buy another Kingdom recording (Slatkin), so I'm interested to hear what he brings to the work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 06, 2014, 09:06:27 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 07:47:09 AM
Well, it's no problem, 71 dB. On a lighter note, I did buy another Kingdom recording (Slatkin), so I'm interested to hear what he brings to the work.

Although I've heard others, the only Kingdom I own is Slatkin's, who I feel has done an excellent job with Elgar and RVW.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: snyprrr on January 06, 2014, 10:09:04 AM
gaaah- Elgar and Brian claw their way back to top o'the heap. No wonder I've been in The Diner all day! :laugh:
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 06, 2014, 10:32:41 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 12:47:30 PM
I didn't find anything particularly compelling about any of these sketches, Daniel. As for the Davis performance, I suppose it's good, but it's hard to tell with such uninspired music. I'll leave this for the specialists. I don't plan on listening to this monstrosity again for a very long time...if even then. ;D
Fair enough, John. I haven't heard the performance so can't comment on that.. my favourite is LSO/C.Davis. :)

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 05, 2014, 01:00:05 PM
I was not a huge fan the first time around, but I have wanted to give this a re-listen and your enthusiasm helped push me to at least listen to the first movement again. So I must say, I have really enjoyed this much more this time around (was probably just in the wrong frame of mind the first time or something). I doubt I will prefer it to either of the first two symphonies, but so glad I didn't give up on the piece. So thanks for providing the motivation.

Oh and PS: That theme you were talking about is outstanding - gorgeous music.

Really glad to hear this, thank you, Neal! Glad to be of service!! Was listening to the first movement myself whilst walking to my piano students this evening, definitely my favourite, and what I consider to be the most successful movement, mostly for the Vera theme  :-*
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 11:23:29 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on January 06, 2014, 10:09:04 AM
gaaah- Elgar and Brian claw their way back to top o'the heap. No wonder I've been in The Diner all day! :laugh:

Then go back to the 'The Diner'!!!! >:( ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 11:44:00 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 06, 2014, 09:06:27 AM
Although I've heard others, the only Kingdom I own is Slatkin's, who I feel has done an excellent job with Elgar and RVW.

I'm definitely thinking of picking up Slatkin's box set of Elgar that's be 24-bit remastered. I already own the older box, but I wouldn't mind have the updated sonics. This said, I'm looking forward to listening to his Kingdom.

Right now, I'm about to just go ahead and buy Hickox's Gerontius, Apostles, and Kingdom. Can never have too many recordings of these works.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 12:02:04 PM
On second thought, I'm so happy with my recordings from Elder of these oratorios that I can't really imagine Hickox 'bettering' him in anyway. If I can get Hickox's cheap, like I did that Slatkin Kingdom recording, then I'll definitely consider it at that point.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 12:09:39 PM
Just bought:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000241EC.01.L.jpg)

My understanding is The Banner of St. George isn't one of Elgar's finer moments but I don't own this work and never have heard it before. It will be nice to at least have it in my Elgar collection. 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2014, 01:48:42 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 12:09:39 PM
Just bought:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000241EC.01.L.jpg)

My understanding is The Banner of St. George isn't one of Elgar's finer moments but I don't own this work and never have heard it before. It will be nice to at least have it in my Elgar collection. 8)

I bought that CD some 15 years ago from a second hand store. I haven't listened to it for a while. I was pretty new to Elgar back when I bought it and I remember thinking "Wow, Elgar really is my kind of composer", when listening to it. I need to revisit the disc, now that you brought it up.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 02:00:26 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2014, 01:48:42 PM
I bought that CD some 15 years ago from a second hand store. I haven't listened to it for a while. I was pretty new to Elgar back when I bought it and I remember thinking "Wow, Elgar really is my kind of composer", when listening to it. I need to revisit the disc, now that you brought it up.  ;)

This is great to hear. 8) I suppose this is the only recording available of The Banner of St. George? It's only one that turned up on an Amazon search.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 04:37:30 PM
Finished Elgar's The Light of Life and I certainly didn't feel the same kind of feelings I felt from The Apostles or The Kingdom, but I did hear some very good music and it may not be particular substantial or even noteworthy, it was still worth hearing, which is more than I can say of that abomination Symphony No. 3. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 05:57:09 PM
I'll definitely be giving Caractacus a listen tomorrow. I've heard nothing but great things about it. Anyone know this work? 71 dB? Monkey Greg?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on January 06, 2014, 06:05:58 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 02:00:26 PM
This is great to hear. 8) I suppose this is the only recording available of The Banner of St. George? It's only one that turned up on an Amazon search.

It's in the EMI 30CD box (ETA=meaning the same recording, with the other works shown on that CD cover)

Which means that I've listened to it....but have absolutely no actual memory of it to make stand out from the other choral works coupled with it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 06:33:16 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 06, 2014, 06:05:58 PM
It's in the EMI 30CD box (ETA=meaning the same recording, with the other works shown on that CD cover)

Which means that I've listened to it....but have absolutely no actual memory of it to make stand out from the other choral works coupled with it.

Yep, well it's the only recording of this work, which I find strange. I'm sure I'll record some thoughts about it (once I received the recording and listen to it of course).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 06:37:39 PM
Really enjoying Symphony No. 2 from this set right now:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/089/MI0001089083.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 07, 2014, 07:24:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 02:00:26 PM
This is great to hear. 8) I suppose this is the only recording available of The Banner of St. George? It's only one that turned up on an Amazon search.

I have to say I never realised it's that rare work!  ??? Sir Mark Elder, are you listening?  ::)

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 04:37:30 PM
Finished Elgar's The Light of Life and I certainly didn't feel the same kind of feelings I felt from The Apostles or The Kingdom, but I did hear some very good music and it may not be particular substantial or even noteworthy, it was still worth hearing, which is more than I can say of that abomination Symphony No. 3. :)

Sure, The Apostles and The Kingdom are superior to The Light of Life. However, parts "Thou only hast the words of life" and "I am the Good  Shepperd" are certainly signs of Elgar's genius starting to blossom at that point of his career.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 05:57:09 PM
I'll definitely be giving Caractacus a listen tomorrow. I've heard nothing but great things about it. Anyone know this work? 71 dB? Monkey Greg?

Caractacus is better than The Light of Life, but don't expect too much. It's not another The Apostles or The Kingdom.
Severn Suite for full orchestra (orchestrated  by Elgar himself) is a very nice plus on the Hickox disc. I like it a lot, but you might not like it because it's similar "late Elgar" work the 3rd symphony is.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 06:37:39 PM
Really enjoying Symphony No. 2 from this set right now:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/089/MI0001089083.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

That's a very nice set of orchestral Elgar.  ;)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2014, 08:20:52 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 07, 2014, 07:24:48 AM
I have to say I never realised it's that rare work!  ??? Sir Mark Elder, are you listening?  ::)

Sure, The Apostles and The Kingdom are superior to The Light of Life. However, parts "Thou only hast the words of life" and "I am the Good  Shepperd" are certainly signs of Elgar's genius starting to blossom at that point of his career.

Caractacus is better than The Light of Life, but don't expect too much. It's not another The Apostles or The Kingdom.
Severn Suite for full orchestra (orchestrated  by Elgar himself) is a very nice plus on the Hickox disc. I like it a lot, but you might not like it because it's similar "late Elgar" work the 3rd symphony is.

That's a very nice set of orchestral Elgar.  ;)

I would actually like Elder to record The Spirit of England, too! Since we're talking about more Elgar for him to record. :) Yes, I did enjoy The Light of Life and I hope to give it another spin in a day or two. On today's menu for Elgar is Caractacus and Severn Suite. I'm really looking forward to hearing those works. BTW, I heard some of Severn Suite and loved it. :)

I'm really enjoying Slaktin's Elgar this time around. Great performances.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2014, 10:09:03 AM
The great thing about Elgar is there's such a multitude of works in his oeuvre that reveal the many different sides of his musical persona and there's not one less than inspired moment in any of the works I have heard, which is, as I have posted, quite a long list. I'm being careful not to reach burnout like have done with many of my other favorite composers, so right now I'm finishing up Symphony No. 1 with Slatkin/LPO and will return to Elgar later on tonight with my first listen to Caractacus. 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2014, 05:54:14 PM
I greatly enjoyed Caractacus. I found it much more dramatic than The Light of Life and, in my opinion, it's a better work. Now to listen to the Severn Suite.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on January 08, 2014, 04:26:26 AM
How many cds does the Elgar/Elder series comprise? What I've listened to is splendid so far, did Sir Elder record all Elgar's orchestral and choral works?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 06:59:58 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 08, 2014, 04:26:26 AM
How many cds does the Elgar/Elder series comprise? What I've listened to is splendid so far, did Sir Elder record all Elgar's orchestral and choral works?

:) Let's see so far he has recorded the following:

Symphonies 1 & 2
In the South (Alassio)
Falstaff
Introduction & Allegro
Cello Concerto
Violin Concerto
Enigma Variations
Serenade for Strings
Dream Children
Froissart Overture
Chanson de Matin
Romance for Bassoon
The Music Makers
The Kingdom
The Apostles
The Dream of Gerontius


This, I believe, is all that he has recorded so far. If you look at Elgar's oeuvre, then you'll find he still has many works to go. I'm not sure if he'll complete this cycle, but one can only hope he records The Spirit of England, Sea Pictures, or even Caractacus. He hasn't recorded the a lot of the miniatures either like Sospiri or Carissima. We could definitely use a new recording of Scenes from the Saga of King Olaf. Anyway, again, so much to record, especially if you look at his oeuvre.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 08, 2014, 07:05:16 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 06:59:58 AM
:) Let's see so far he has recorded the following:

Symphonies 1 & 2
In the South (Alassio)
Falstaff
Introduction & Allegro
Cello Concerto
Violin Concerto
Enigma Variations
Serenade for Strings
Dream Children
Froissart Overture
Chanson de Matin
Romance for Bassoon
The Music Makers
The Kingdom
The Apostles
The Dream of Gerontius


This, I believe, is all that he has recorded so far. If you look at Elgar's oeuvre, then you'll find he still has many works to go. I'm not sure if he'll complete this cycle, but one can only hope he records The Spirit of England, Sea Pictures, or even Caractacus. He hasn't recorded the a lot of the miniatures either like Sospiri or Carissima. We could definitely use a new recording of Scenes from the Saga of King Olaf. Anyway, again, so much to record, especially if you look at his oeuvre.
Cockaigne Overture

If Elder records Sea Pictures I hope he uses Alice Coote. I love her voice, and her Angel in their Gerontius is sublime.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 08, 2014, 07:09:23 AM
I definitely need to look into Elder's Gerontius. (Elder . . . Gerontius . . . almost feels like a redundancy  8) )
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 07:12:14 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 08, 2014, 07:05:16 AM
If Elder records Sea Pictures I hope he uses Alice Coote. I love her voice, and her Angel in their Gerontius is sublime.

+1
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 08, 2014, 07:15:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 08, 2014, 07:09:23 AM
I definitely need to look into Elder's Gerontius. (Elder . . . Gerontius . . . almost feels like a redundancy  8) )

You should, Karl. The quality of life would greatly improve from it. Ok, that might be a bit off, but you'd enjoy it!  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 07:27:38 AM
I admit to not fully appreciating The Dream of Gerontius, but Part II contains some of the most inspired music Elgar ever composed IMHO. I'm going to try and find time to listen to Elder's recording again today, but, right now, I think it's time for another dosage of the Violin Concerto (Tasmin Little/A. Davis). 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 08, 2014, 08:27:11 AM
Yesterday I listened to The Banner of St. George + the other works in the Hickox disc. I haven't listened to it for YEARS. It was a very pleasant "rediscovery."

Quote from: karlhenning on January 08, 2014, 07:09:23 AM
I definitely need to look into Elder's Gerontius. (Elder . . . Gerontius . . . almost feels like a redundancy  8) )

My copy of "The Dream of Elder" arrived today! However, now listening to Jonny L's In A Jungle (British drum 'n' bass) since it also arrived today.  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 08:31:32 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 08, 2014, 08:27:11 AM
Yesterday I listened to The Banner of St. George + the other works in the Hickox disc. I haven't listened to it for YEARS. It was a very pleasant "rediscovery."

Excellent, good to hear. Have you heard King Olaf? I've been quite curious about this one for awhile.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 08, 2014, 08:50:51 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 08:31:32 AM
Excellent, good to hear. Have you heard King Olaf? I've been quite curious about this one for awhile.

Yeah, I have Vernon Handley. I rank Scenes from the Saga of King Olaf somewhere near The Light of Life.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 08:59:23 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 08, 2014, 08:50:51 AM
Yeah, I have Vernon Handley. I rank Scenes from the Saga of King Olaf somewhere near The Light of Life.

Ah okay. Well this means I'll enjoy it then. :) Don't me wrong, I did enjoy The Light of Life despite my lukewarm reception of it. It's a good work just not a great work IMHO, but worth hearing again certainly.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on January 08, 2014, 01:22:55 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 06:59:58 AM
:) Let's see so far he has recorded the following:

Symphonies 1 & 2
In the South (Alassio)
Falstaff
Introduction & Allegro
Cello Concerto
Violin Concerto
Enigma Variations
Serenade for Strings
Dream Children
Froissart Overture
Chanson de Matin
Romance for Bassoon
The Music Makers
The Kingdom
The Apostles
The Dream of Gerontius


This, I believe, is all that he has recorded so far. If you look at Elgar's oeuvre, then you'll find he still has many works to go. I'm not sure if he'll complete this cycle, but one can only hope he records The Spirit of England, Sea Pictures, or even Caractacus. He hasn't recorded the a lot of the miniatures either like Sospiri or Carissima. We could definitely use a new recording of Scenes from the Saga of King Olaf. Anyway, again, so much to record, especially if you look at his oeuvre.

You forgot Cockaigne Overture, it is comprised in the set along with Enigma Variations and Serenade for Strings. :) Elder is a wonderful elgarian interpreter, what a pity he hasn't recorded all the orchestral and choral works; but of course you're right, recording the oeuvre of a prolific composer is always a titanic work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 01:51:59 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 08, 2014, 01:22:55 PM
You forgot Cockaigne Overture, it is comprised in the set along with Enigma Variations and Serenade for Strings. :) Elder is a wonderful elgarian interpreter, what a pity he hasn't recorded all the orchestral and choral works; but of course you're right, recording the oeuvre of a prolific composer is always a titanic work.

Damn, I knew I was forgetting something. You can't name them all, especially in such a large series. :) Yes, Elder is a wonderful Elgarian as he truly understands the psychological and dramatic aspects of the music as well, if not better, than another other conductor working today. No joke. He's serious about Elgar and he should be! 8)

In other news, I'm revisiting Solti's Elgar, and though I've spoken harshly of it earlier, I'm finding it very enjoyable this time around from the perspective that Solti seems to have brought out the Mahlerian/Wagnerian undertows of the music. Speaking of Cockaigne Overture, I'm enjoying his performance of it right now. Solti is definitely bending my ears into different directions.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on January 08, 2014, 02:38:21 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 01:51:59 PM
Damn, I knew I was forgetting something. You can't name them all, especially in such a large series. :) Yes, Elder is a wonderful Elgarian as he truly understands the psychological and dramatic aspects of the music as well, if not better, than another other conductor working today. No joke. He's serious about Elgar and he should be! 8)

In other news, I'm revisiting Solti's Elgar, and though I've spoken harshly of it earlier, I'm finding it very enjoyable this time around from the perspective that Solti seems to have brought out the Mahlerian/Wagnerian undertows of the music. Speaking of Cockaigne Overture, I'm enjoying his performance of it right now. Solti is definitely bending my ears into different directions.

Haha, sure. ;) I don't know if Elder is the best Elgarian I've ever heard since I've actually listened only to him, Davis and Solti, plus Bernstein for the Enigma Variations; but he's certainly one of the finests, I agree his performances seem to perfectly capture the spirit, the qualities of Elgar's music and to make you beautifully dive into the pictures and the emotions those works can evoke. I love Solti's recordings of Symphonies 1 & 2, Cockaigne, In the South and some of the Pomp and Circumstance marches, they are full of passionate energy and harmonic beauty.

I sometimes wonder about how much of Elgar's music is known in Italy, apart from Pomp and Circumstance; I remember when I once mentioned him to a friend of mine, he said: "That Englishman mad for marches?". That left me a little stunned.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 02:51:05 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 08, 2014, 02:38:21 PM
Haha, sure. ;) I don't know if Elder is the best Elgarian I've ever heard since I've actually listened only to him, Davis and Solti, plus Bernstein for the Enigma Variations; but he's certainly one of the finests, I agree his performances seem to perfectly capture the spirit, the qualities of Elgar's music and to make you beautifully dive into the pictures and the emotions those works can evoke. I love Solti's recordings of Symphonies 1 & 2, Cockaigne, In the South and some of the Pomp and Circumstance marches, they are full of passionate energy and harmonic beauty.

I sometimes wonder about how much of Elgar's music is known in Italy, apart from Pomp and Circumstance; I remember when I once mentioned him to a friend of mine, he said: "That Englishman mad for marches?". That left me a little stunned.

I'll say it's rather unfortunate that some people only know the Pomp & Circumstance Marches which are nothing but ceremonial/patriotic works, which so many other composers of the time composed as well. It's like only associating Sibelius with Finlandia for example. Oh, how the Finns must be tired of this work by now. :) Anyway, if anyone one of your Italian friends is interested in Elgar tell them to listen to In the South (Alassio), which was inspired by one of his stays there. You can see the sun and feel that Mediterranean heat throughout this work and I think they'll enjoy it. If they don't, then tell them to go listen to some Puccini or Verdi! ;) ;)

As I mentioned earlier, I think Andrew Davis is another fine Elgarian who has, time and time again, shown his credentials for this composer. His newer Philharmonia recordings are absolutely blistering and they've been mentioned here several times by myself and several others. I think, especially in the larger works, Elder equips himself very well and, as I also mentioned before, his performance of The Kingdom left me absolutely speechless. If you haven't heard The Kingdom or even The Apostles, Ilaria, then please remedy this as soon as possible! You'll enjoy them I think.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on January 08, 2014, 03:35:05 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 02:51:05 PM
I'll say it's rather unfortunate that some people only know the Pomp & Circumstance Marches which are nothing but ceremonial/patriotic works, which so many other composers of the time composed as well. It's like only associating Sibelius with Finlandia for example. Oh, how the Finns must be tired of this work by now. :) Anyway, if anyone one of your Italian friends is interested in Elgar tell them to listen to In the South (Alassio), which was inspired by one of his stays there. You can see the sun and feel that Mediterranean heat throughout this work and I think they'll enjoy it. If they don't, then tell them to go listen to some Puccini or Verdi! ;) ;)

As I mentioned earlier, I think Andrew Davis is another fine Elgarian who has, time and time again, shown his credentials for this composer. His newer Philharmonia recordings are absolutely blistering and they've been mentioned here several times by myself and several others. I think, especially in the larger works, Elder equips himself very well and, as I also mentioned before, his performance of The Kingdom left me absolutely speechless. If you haven't heard The Kingdom or even The Apostles, Ilaria, then please remedy this as soon as possible! You'll enjoy them I think.

Yes, it's very unfair and depressing when a composer is only associated with one or few other pieces, the best example coming to my mind is Strauss Father and his Radetzky-Marsch. About Elgar, Pomp & Circumstance is certainly a gorgeous, majestic series of marches, but it's not his most beautiful work, it's merely the most famous; there's much more in Elgar's repertoire! Thank you for your suggestions, I listened to the first disc of The Kingdom some days ago, tomorrow I'll finish it and then I'll continue with The Apostles I haven't heard yet; I'll write my toughts on those compositions on the thread. :) Haha, that sounds like a punishment....'go to listen to Verdi or Puccini'! (Well, it could be in my case) ;D

Sure, Davis is excellent too, I've had my eyes on his box of Elgar's orchestral works for quite a little time!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 03:57:05 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 08, 2014, 03:35:05 PM
Yes, it's very unfair and depressing when a composer is only associated with one or few other pieces, the best example coming to my mind is Strauss Father and his Radetzky-Marsch. About Elgar, Pomp & Circumstance is certainly a gorgeous, majestic series of marches, but it's not his most beautiful work, it's merely the most famous; there's much more in Elgar's repertoire! Thank you for your suggestions, I listened to the first disc of The Kingdom some days ago, tomorrow I'll finish it and then I'll continue with The Apostles I haven't heard yet; I'll write my toughts on those compositions on the thread. :) Haha, that sounds like a punishment....'go to listen to Verdi or Puccini'! (Well, it could be in my case) ;D

Sure, Davis is excellent too, I've had my eyes on his box of Elgar's orchestral works for quite a little time!

Thankfully, real classical fans know there's more to a composer than their popular works. 8) I look forward to reading your thoughts on both of these oratorios. They certainly as masterworks in my opinion and there's so much great music within them. Elgar's orchestration, also, is in a class of its' own.

Davis' first go-around was very good indeed. His performance of The Music Makers may be the best I've heard so far, but Elder's gives him a run for his money. Of course, there's Boult, which I need to revisit, but recall enjoying. The Dream of Gerontius is one of the only works that hasn't quite made an impact on me (yet), but I'm going to revisit again tonight.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 05:20:56 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread -

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 05:15:07 PM
Bought these Elgarian beauties today:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000AOL.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000OMCIVI.01.L.jpg)

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/149/MI0001149300.jpg?partner=allrovi.com) (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/109/MI0001109946.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000XFZSCC.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000E3BN.01.L.jpg)

Does anyone own any of these recordings? Hickox in Elgar is an automatic purchase from me. 8) I love his conducting and I love his approach to Elgar and all the major 20th Century British composers for that matter. The Thomson recordings was a no-brainer as I remember liking his symphony recordings several years ago. He has a slower approach to Elgar, which occasionally robs the music's intensity, but he makes up for it in the shimmering orchestral details he's able to coax from the score. The Mackerras was pretty a no-brainer, too, because I was aware of his performance of Sea Pictures with Della Jones several years ago and loving what he brought to the music. In the symphonies, from what I've gathered from various reviews, he's not was fast as Solti, but is somewhere in the same vicinity as Hickox's interpretations. And finally, hearing Solti in the Enigma Variations should be interesting to say the least. :) Anyway, looking forward to hearing all of these.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 09, 2014, 07:15:02 AM
I think I have never heard Solti's Elgar.  ::)

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2014, 05:20:56 PMDoes anyone own any of these recordings?

Only an earlier release of the Wand of Youth discs without Dream Children. Nice disc.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2014, 08:22:16 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 09, 2014, 07:15:02 AMI think I have never heard Solti's Elgar.  ::)

Really? That's quite surprising.

I think you'll enjoy the raw Wagnerian energy Solti brings to Elgar, 71 dB. Some have commented throughout the Web that his approach to the music was quite vulgar, but Elgar needn't be performed like music from some kind of regal ceremony. But there are many listeners who enjoy Solti's interpretative choices and you can now count me as one of them. Of course, the LPO know Elgar so well and give superb performances.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2014, 09:17:50 AM
Got to Elgarian goodies in the mail today: the June 2007 issue of BBC Magazine celebrating 150 years of Elgar with none other than the man himself on the cover and A. Davis' recording with Paul Watkins performing the Cello Concerto on Chandos. Looking forward to digging into both of these. 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2014, 09:29:14 AM
Listening to Solti rip the hell out of Symphony No. 2 at the moment. Glorious stuff indeed. 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 09, 2014, 10:07:14 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 09, 2014, 08:22:16 AM
Really? That's quite surprising.

I have 6 performances of Elgar's 1st and 7 of 2nd. I have feld I don't really need more performances but then again, the Solti twofer on Decca is very cheap...   :P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2014, 10:10:25 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 09, 2014, 10:07:14 AM
I have 6 performances of Elgar's 1st and 7 recordings of 2nd. I have feld I don't really need more performances but then again, the Solti twofer on Decca is very cheap...   :P

Well, I'm an Elgar collector...I suppose, so I love having a lot of performances of the same works. Yeah, the Solti is very cheap. Definitely worth picking up. You may like these performances, but I can't guarantee that you will. I wasn't completely thrilling with them when I first heard them, but then my mind began to up at all the possibilities with Elgar's music that I was missing out on earlier. Slatkin and Solti are two Elgarians I've now come to finally appreciate.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2014, 10:12:51 AM
For anyone interested, I started a thread in the 'Opera and Vocal' section of the forum about Elgar's oratorios. Please feel free to comment on these works and maybe I can get some interest stirred up for dear ol' Eddie. :)

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,22689.msg770321.html#new
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 09, 2014, 10:14:45 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 09, 2014, 10:07:14 AM
I have 6 performances of Elgar's 1st and 7 of 2nd. I have feld I don't really need more performances but then again, the Solti twofer on Decca is very cheap...   :P

Go for the Solti, it's worth it. His swift tempos might be a little alarming if you're not use to them, but they are filled with incredible energy without losing any of the loveliness or subtleties. But I find Elgar's symphonies to be in a similar situation as Brahms' four, the music itself is so spectacular that it benefits greatly from a variety of interpretations.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2014, 10:16:54 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 09, 2014, 10:14:45 AM
Go for the Solti, it's worth it. His swift tempos might be a little alarming if you're not use to them, but they are filled with incredible energy without losing any of the loveliness or subtleties. But I find Elgar's symphonies to be in a similar situation as Brahms' four, the music itself is so spectacular that it benefits greatly from a variety of interpretations.

Couldn't agree more, Greg. Such a myriad of moods and emotions to be found in this music that it's impossible to prefer just one conductor or even just to have one conductor's recordings of these works in your collection. If you love Elgar, then the more performances you have, the more you'll begin to be able to piece together the complexities of this astounding musical persona.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2014, 10:29:05 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 09, 2014, 10:14:45 AM
Go for the Solti, it's worth it. His swift tempos might be a little alarming if you're not use to them, but they are filled with incredible energy without losing any of the loveliness or subtleties. But I find Elgar's symphonies to be in a similar situation as Brahms' four, the music itself is so spectacular that it benefits greatly from a variety of interpretations.

Mm, enjoying the samples of the Solti.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2014, 10:32:56 AM
The Presto of the Second is especially toothsome.

This thread remains a dangerous place . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2014, 11:08:54 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 09, 2014, 10:32:56 AM
The Presto of the Second is especially toothsome.

This thread remains a dangerous place . . . .

:D A dangerous place indeed. The more time I spend here, the more money I spend. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 10, 2014, 07:19:36 AM
Bought this last night:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/139/MI0001139943.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Would definitely like to read any opinions of this version of The Spirit of England, although I don't really see this performance bettering Teresa Cahill/Alexander Gibson on Chandos, it will, nonetheless, be nice to have another performance of this highly underrated work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 10, 2014, 09:00:53 AM
Yesterday, I opened up the cabinet w/ my British composer's CDs - decided to start exploring what I had of Elgar and was amazed that the only duplicated performances were of the Cello Concerto; just have the Previn Symphony twofer (quoted below in a post left moments ago in the listening thread) - I really love Previn's First, Second to a lesser extent; SO, looking back through some of the posts here, there seems to be a LOT more alternative recordings of these symphonic works - for you Elgarians, are these lists still valid or have some newer discs appeared on the market?  Thanks - Dave :)


QuoteElgar, Edward - Cello Concerto w/ two different performers & Previn twofer w/ the Symphonies et al - now, I've had the latter probably since it's release in the mid-90s - really like the first disc, second not as successful to my ears? - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-WfdvCMP/0/S/Elgar_SymphPrevin-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-XSwM7zr/0/S/Elgar_duPre-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-wxzspW6/0/S/Elgar_Cello-S.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 10, 2014, 09:01:47 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 10, 2014, 07:19:36 AM
Bought this last night:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/139/MI0001139943.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Would definitely like to read any opinions of this version of The Spirit of England, although I don't really see this performance bettering Teresa Cahill/Alexander Gibson on Chandos, it will, nonetheless, be nice to have another performance of this highly underrated work.
AS you may remember from my earlier posts in discussion with Elgarian, it is my preferred version. It is a bit different though (in one particular aspect) and I don't want to ruin the surprise if you don't already know about it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 10, 2014, 09:05:24 AM
He won't learn about the whoopie cushion from me!

(oops . . . .)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 10, 2014, 09:08:04 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 10, 2014, 09:05:24 AM
He won't learn about the whoopie cushion from me!

(oops . . . .)

:P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 10, 2014, 09:09:41 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 10, 2014, 09:01:47 AM
AS you may remember from my earlier posts in discussion with Elgarian, it is my preferred version. It is a bit different though (in one particular aspect) and I don't want to ruin the surprise if you don't already know about it.

I know the middle movement To Women is sung by a tenor. I'm not aware of any other changes.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 10, 2014, 09:11:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 10, 2014, 09:09:41 AM
I know the middle movement To Women is sung by a tenor. I'm not aware of any other changes.
Yes. That is what I meant.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 10, 2014, 09:15:04 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 10, 2014, 09:11:15 AM
Yes. That is what I meant.

Ah, okay. Well, it will be cool to have this version for that very fact, although, as I said, it's going to be very hard to shake off the impact Teresa Cahill has had on me in the Gibson performance, but you never know.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 10, 2014, 09:28:49 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 10, 2014, 09:15:04 AM
Ah, okay. Well, it will be cool to have this version for that very fact, although, as I said, it's going to be very hard to shake off the impact Teresa Cahill has had on me in the Gibson performance, but you never know.
P75 of this thread is where we discussed two of the versions. You might want to wait and hear it before reading the comments.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 10, 2014, 09:30:48 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 10, 2014, 09:28:49 AM
P75 of this thread is where we discussed two of the versions. You might want to wait and hear it before reading the comments.

Thanks, Neal. 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mozart Dave on January 10, 2014, 11:14:40 AM
I have tried to find a discussion about Elgar's Hillside but it's completely irrelevent to this conversation. All I know that he's a great musician! I heard his songs before and I really liked them.

David
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 10, 2014, 11:23:13 AM
Quote from: Mozart Dave on January 10, 2014, 11:14:40 AM
I have tried to find a discussion about Elgar's Hillside but it's completely irrelevent to this conversation. All I know that he's a great musician! I heard his songs before and I really liked them.

David

Are you referring to his Part-Songs for chorus? If yes, then this is the only blind spot for me in his oeuvre.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 10, 2014, 02:46:48 PM
I'm listening to Tasmin Little's performance of the Violin Concerto yet again. What an incredible performance and one that surpasses my previous favorite: Kennedy/Handley. A lot of it has to do with the fact that I think Little brings so much more emotion to this work than any other violinist I've heard. I also think A. Davis' conducting is also more driven than Handley's.

[asin]B0044FEZDA[/asin]

For those that love this concerto, and haven't bought Little's performance yet, then do not hesitate. A must hear.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 10, 2014, 04:26:32 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 10, 2014, 02:46:48 PM
I'm listening to Tasmin Little's performance of the Violin Concerto yet again. What an incredible performance and one that surpasses my previous favorite: Kennedy/Handley. A lot of it has to do with the fact that I think Little brings so much more emotion to this work than any other violinist I've heard. I also think A. Davis' conducting is also more driven than Handley's.

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-b4n2V5J/0/S/Elgar_Sinopoli-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-fTmJdPh/0/S/Elgar_Gabetta-S.jpg)

For those that love this concerto, and haven't bought Little's performance yet, then do not hesitate. A must hear.

YES!  I have that Tasmin Little recording and am listening to the concerto @ the moment - have always enjoyed!

Above, I've added a few 'considerations', i.e. would like to acquire some more Elgar recordings - the twofer w/ Sinopoli has been well reviewed on Amazon and w/ good comments here; also, I know nothing about Sol Gabetta but the reviews are excellent - any comments on these potential purchases?  Thanks - Dave :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 10, 2014, 04:46:15 PM
Excellent, Dave. Yeah, Little really shines in this performance. I love her playing. As for your questions, I'm not a great fan of Sinopoli's Elgar recordings. I don't favor his slower tempi and I think his performances feel lethargic to me. He doesn't get to the point in a full-blooded way. I can't fault Philharmonia's performances however as they are remarkable in Elgar, but I don't like Sinopoli's direction. If you're looking for some great newer performances of the symphonies, then look now further than the Davis/Philharmonia set on Signum:

[asin]B0036U24UK[/asin]

I have not heard that Sol Gabetta recording, but of recent performances I've heard of the CC I like Watkin/A. Davis on Chandos. Of course, the definitive performance remains du Pre's performance with Barbirolli, but I'm still on the lookout for different performances of the CC.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 10, 2014, 05:12:02 PM
For what it's worth, Dave, I just bought that Gabetta recording of the CC. I'll definitely report my thoughts once I've heard it in it's entirety. I listened to some samples of it via Spotify and was completely captivated. Gabetta's tone and overall feeling, from the 4 minutes I listened to of the first movement, sounded first-rate.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 11, 2014, 07:36:57 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 10, 2014, 05:12:02 PM
For what it's worth, Dave, I just bought that Gabetta recording of the CC. I'll definitely report my thoughts once I've heard it in it's entirety. I listened to some samples of it via Spotify and was completely captivated. Gabetta's tone and overall feeling, from the 4 minutes I listened to of the first movement, sounded first-rate.

Thanks John for your comments on the Andrew Davis symphony recordings - just read an excellent review by Dubins in Fanfare - he highly recommended the CD and felt it was now one of his favorites in those Elgar works - mentioned 'live' performances, so I hope that there is not too much raucous clapping - put on my Amazon Wish List @ the moment.

As to Sol Gabetta, there was also a Fanfare review (which I've attached for those interested) - rather negative, so I will skip acquiring her recording of the cello concerto (the two I now own, shown in a previously post, are just fine w/ me).  Dave :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 11, 2014, 07:51:17 AM
Well, since I'm going through my Elgar collection, might as well mentioned the vocal works that I own - The Apostles & The Dream of Gerontius - both of these are more modern recordings (i.e. first decade of this century) and live - now I've not heard some of the older 'classics', like Boult; SO, among the experienced Elgarians here, any top favs for these oratorios?  Thanks - Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kuQHZ1WLL._SY300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EJkyUUAOL._SY300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 11, 2014, 08:29:29 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 11, 2014, 07:51:17 AM
Well, since I'm going through my Elgar collection, might as well mentioned the vocal works that I own - The Apostles & The Dream of Gerontius - both of these are more modern recordings (i.e. first decade of this century) and live - now I've not heard some of the older 'classics', like Boult; SO, among the experienced Elgarians here, any top favs for these oratorios?  Thanks - Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kuQHZ1WLL._SY300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EJkyUUAOL._SY300_.jpg)

I've haven't listened to Apostles enough to call one a favorite... but the Elder/Halle recording of Gerontius is hands-down my tops. Beautifully recorded sound, and Alice Coote as the Angel is just divine.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 11, 2014, 11:13:40 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 11, 2014, 08:29:29 AM
... but the Elder/Halle recording of Gerontius is hands-down my tops. Beautifully recorded sound, and Alice Coote as the Angel is just divine.

I try to listen to it now. Nowadays it's harder for me to listen to Elgar. I was a "whole" person 15 years ago but life has broken me. I am uneasy, tired, frustrated and bitter. It's hard to get in the mood for great art anymore. I try... ...maybe I don't listen to Elgar enough and that's why I am uneasy?

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 11, 2014, 01:10:39 PM
Just finished listening to Elder's Gerontius.

In my opinion the strings (most important in Elgar's music) are too quiet compared to other instrument and the singers. I feld a few times strings got masked under other sounds. Part II/There was a mortal... started very slowly. I would have prefered faster tempi. Apart from these complaints this is a great performance.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 11, 2014, 08:29:29 AM
Alice Coote as the Angel is just divine.

Yes, she's excellent. It's just that the soloist are so loud compared to the strings.  :-\
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 11, 2014, 02:06:56 PM
Hi Poju - hope that Elgar's music perked you up a bit - maybe just the winter?  But thanks for the comments on the oratorio - I need to listen to the ones I own but the Elder does appear to be an excellent choice.  Dave :)  P.S. also thanks Greg for the recommendation!

Quote from: 71 dB on January 11, 2014, 11:13:40 AM
I try to listen to it now. Nowadays it's harder for me to listen to Elgar. I was a "whole" person 15 years ago but life has broken me. I am uneasy, tired, frustrated and bitter. It's hard to get in the mood for great art anymore. I try... ...maybe I don't listen to Elgar enough and that's why I am uneasy?

Quote from: 71 dB on January 11, 2014, 01:10:39 PM
Just finished listening to Elder's Gerontius.

In my opinion the strings (most important in Elgar's music) are too quiet compared to other instrument and the singers. I feld a few times strings got masked under other sounds. Part II/There was a mortal... started very slowly. I would have prefered faster tempi. Apart from these complaints this is a great performance.

Yes, she's excellent. It's just that the soloist are so loud compared to the strings.  :-\
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 11, 2014, 03:27:53 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 11, 2014, 02:06:56 PM
Hi Poju - hope that Elgar's music perked you up a bit - maybe just the winter? 

Listening to the Gerontius did have quite a possitive effect on me. Winter has finally started in Southern Finland and there's a thin layer of snow outdoor. Winter is not to blame for my angst.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 11, 2014, 05:06:36 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 11, 2014, 07:36:57 AM
Thanks John for your comments on the Andrew Davis symphony recordings - just read an excellent review by Dubins in Fanfare - he highly recommended the CD and felt it was now one of his favorites in those Elgar works - mentioned 'live' performances, so I hope that there is not too much raucous clapping - put on my Amazon Wish List @ the moment.

As to Sol Gabetta, there was also a Fanfare review (which I've attached for those interested) - rather negative, so I will skip acquiring her recording of the cello concerto (the two I now own, shown in a previously post, are just fine w/ me).  Dave :)

The applause in the Andrew Davis recording is after the performance of each symphony and it's certainly well deserved. He absolutely burned down the house in those performances. I've been singing praises for these recordings for quite some time.

As for the Sol Gabetta recording review being negative, I don't really care. I take what most critics say with a grain of salt. I listened to some of the recording today actually (about 15 minutes or so) and thought it was absolutely gorgeous and so lyrically haunting. That's the way I like hearing this concerto. I don't enjoy reserved performances because the work is unabashedly Romantic in it's expressiveness and I believe it should be played this way with every emotion rung out. As I wrote earlier, I certainly was enchanted with what she brought to the music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 11, 2014, 05:11:27 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 11, 2014, 07:51:17 AM
Well, since I'm going through my Elgar collection, might as well mentioned the vocal works that I own - The Apostles & The Dream of Gerontius - both of these are more modern recordings (i.e. first decade of this century) and live - now I've not heard some of the older 'classics', like Boult; SO, among the experienced Elgarians here, any top favs for these oratorios?  Thanks - Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kuQHZ1WLL._SY300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EJkyUUAOL._SY300_.jpg)

I rank Elder's recordings very highly, but just curious why are you leaving out The Kingdom? This is a major work make no mistake about it. People here may disagree, but I felt every note in this work and it just hit me like a ton of bricks emotionally. There is a vulnerability in the music that, especially in The Sun Goeth Down movement, where it recalls the haunting lyricism of Sospiri. Anyway, you can't go wrong with Elder in any of these oratorios. But I have yet to hear any of Hickox's performances and Boult's Elgar doesn't do much for me. I keep hearing Barbirolli's Gerontius is top-shelf, but I have yet to investigate that recording. It has Janet Baker as the Angel, so how bad could it be? ;) 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 11, 2014, 05:43:44 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 11, 2014, 11:13:40 AM
I try to listen to it now. Nowadays it's harder for me to listen to Elgar. I was a "whole" person 15 years ago but life has broken me. I am uneasy, tired, frustrated and bitter. It's hard to get in the mood for great art anymore. I try... ...maybe I don't listen to Elgar enough and that's why I am uneasy?

I've learned to worry about things that are within my control and forget the rest. Plus, I can't let something come between me and the music. A day without music, for me, is just out of the question. It should never be a difficult thing to enjoy one of your favorite composers. Hope tomorrow finds you in better spirits.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 12, 2014, 02:44:44 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 11, 2014, 05:43:44 PM
I've learned to worry about things that are within my control and forget the rest. Plus, I can't let something come between me and the music. A day without music, for me, is just out of the question. It should never be a difficult thing to enjoy one of your favorite composers. Hope tomorrow finds you in better spirits.

Thanks MI! The weekends help me a lot to recover from work.

Believe me, I have learned to ignore things not within my control. Call me a heartless person, but I don't worry anymore much about the conflicts in the Middle East or how tribes kill each other in Africa. Those conflicts aren't the reason why I feel how I feel. My problem is my damn job. These days it's so difficult to have another job (thanks to the f*cking globalization and competition) I can't just quit. What's wrong with my job? My bosses. They handle their employees like machines. I constantly feel I am not good enough no matter how hard I try and work. That's why I am tired and frustrated. I would have had a good life if I didn't have to work. But because I don't play lottery (I'm too mathematical to allow myself to pay such stupidity tax), I'm doomed to suffer.

I do listen to music a lot! I need music a lot to compensate the misery caused by my job. It's just not so often Elgar anymore and I have realised why. Life has partly destroyed a part of me that is important with music like Elgar. I can get in the mood but it's as easy as it used to be because I need to forget the horrors of my job. I feel something beautiful has broken inside my and I am bitter for that. How on earth can employers do that to me and others? We have legislation for protecting employees but it doesn't protect from psychological torture. All I can do is work out the door and live unemployed in poverty.

Lately, thanks to these discussions I have "found" Elgar again and I will listen to his music more. Actually I got "frustrated" with Elgar some 10 years ago before my current job because I tried so hard to get other people to get interested of Elgar, but as we know Elgar is very difficult (I'm still wondering why) composer for many to appreciate. I didn't undertand that, since Elgar's music won my hearth so easily. So, Elgar became a contradictory thing for me. On the other hand it was among the most wonderful music I know and on the other hand it was a nuisance demonstrating my dissimilarity with other people. I felt I was born to educate people about Elgar (in Finland) and since other people wheren't willing to get into Elgar, I felt I have failed as a person. The thruth is I was naive about educating other people. I am much wiser today. I don't kibitz anymore. If someone is interested of Elgar, I am ready to help them.

Frankly there is so much other music than Elgar. Even if Elgar is superior to everything else, most of my music listening is with other music. Before I got into classical music late 90's I had been listening to "modern dance music" for a decade. I still love and listen to that music. Most people are completely in the dark about what happened in "modern dance music" between 1988 and 1992. Those 5 years were revolutionary in music history. Music got from acid house to hardcore rave/breakbeat. In late 90's I listened to "modern dance music" and classical music only. In 2001 I started to get into pop and (soft) rock. Then I found new age around 2005, but 2008 was the year of two big discoveries: Tangerine Dream and King Crimson. That was huge! In 2011 I found Carly Simon which was pretty unexpected since I never though I would like country/folk -kind of music, but Carly Simon is an amazing talent. Exploring her albums blew me away. At that point, couple of years ago I felt I had crossed the line. I am able to enjoy almost any kind of music. I don't have preconceptions about music anymore. I am not a music racist anymore. The music itself is what counts, not the instrumentation or style. Any music artist in the world may be my favorite, but I am also very selective. Liking King Crimson doesn't mean I like Pink Lloyd. Liking Carly Simon doesn't mean I like Carole King. Liking Tangerine Dream doesn't mean I like Kraftwerk. I don't, at least for now (not saying those artist suck, just that they aren't interesting enough).

The final step to have the craziest music taste in the world was to buy Katy Perry's "Teenage Dream" album in 2012. I was like "what the hell am I doing?" but I just enjoy the music. But I didn't know what I has getting into when I got interested of Ke$ha last spring! During May 2013 I googled everything about Ke$ha and watched "My Crazy Beautiful Life" show on MTV. I was in a disoriented state of mind for a month because Ke$ha is an extraordinary person, a female Jesus "Ke$hus" as her fans call her. She is hated and criticized, but the haters don't know anything. Ke$ha might become the next Carly Simon. Now she is in Timberline Knoll getting help for her eating disorder, something all of her fans are shocked about. Life is so cruel...

Anyway, there is so much music to explore in the world. Even Elgar can't get most of my attention. ???
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2014, 07:00:41 AM
Thank you for sharing all of this with me, 71 dB. The only thing I can think of is we can't help what we like at the end of the day. No matter what others say, if you enjoy something, then that's all that matters. It's always nice, however, to meet people who do enjoy some of the same composers, which there's plenty of this happening here on GMG, but don't feel like your alone with Elgar, because you're not. I may not have the experience of listening to Elgar as you do as I've only been listening to him for five years, but I've learned more in this past year about the composer than I ever had before and in the this process, I wound up loving the music as a result of listening and research. It wasn't instantaneous of course, but I knew there was so much more to this composer than what lay on the surface as is usually the case for so many great composers.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 12, 2014, 08:27:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 11, 2014, 05:06:36 PM
The applause in the Andrew Davis recording is after the performance of each symphony and it's certainly well deserved. He absolutely burned down the house in those performances. I've been singing praises for these recordings for quite some time.

As for the Sol Gabetta recording review being negative, I don't really care.........

Thanks again for the comments above & below - I ordered the Andrew Davis from Amazon last night - should arrive soon.  The Sol Gabetta recording still appeals to me, but will await your further assessment and maybe comments from others? 

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 11, 2014, 05:11:27 PM
I rank Elder's recordings very highly, but just curious why are you leaving out The Kingdom? This is a major work make no mistake about it. People here may disagree, but I felt every note in this work and it just hit me like a ton of bricks emotionally. There is a vulnerability in the music that, especially in The Sun Goeth Down movement, where it recalls the haunting lyricism of Sospiri. Anyway, you can't go wrong with Elder in any of these oratorios. But I have yet to hear any of Hickox's performances and Boult's Elgar doesn't do much for me. I keep hearing Barbirolli's Gerontius is top-shelf, but I have yet to investigate that recording. It has Janet Baker as the Angel, so how bad could it be? ;) 8)

Well in all honesty (except for JS Bach), my choral recordings is a small portion of my music collection - just not what I usually 'go to' - I need to listen to the two Elgar versions I currently own & will try to hear some the 'The Kingdom' - Dave :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2014, 08:56:27 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 12, 2014, 08:27:15 AM
Thanks again for the comments above & below - I ordered the Andrew Davis from Amazon last night - should arrive soon.  The Sol Gabetta recording still appeals to me, but will await your further assessment and maybe comments from others? 

Well in all honesty (except for JS Bach), my choral recordings is a small portion of my music collection - just not what I usually 'go to' - I need to listen to the two Elgar versions I currently own & will try to hear some the 'The Kingdom' - Dave :)

Sounds good, Dave. Will be interested in reading your opinion on that A. Davis/Philharmonia set. I think you will enjoy it immensely.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 12, 2014, 09:14:20 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 12, 2014, 07:00:41 AM
Thank you for sharing all of this with me, 71 dB. The only thing I can think of is we can't help what we like at the end of the day. No matter what others say, if you enjoy something, then that's all that matters.

That's true. I have had to admit myself liking tons of stuff I never believed I would like. Then I realised that ANY music genre may contain music I like, even if I hated everything else within that same genre.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 12, 2014, 07:00:41 AMIt's always nice, however, to meet people who do enjoy some of the same composers, which there's plenty of this happening here on GMG, but don't feel like your alone with Elgar, because you're not.

Yes, there's plenty of members on this board enjoying at least some of Elgar's works. I am pretty pleased with the situation. But, years before I joined GMG I was "promoting" Elgar to people around me, face to face and that wasn't succesful. My friends never got interested. My best friend said something like "Elgar's music is too intelligent for me to invest time on".  ;D He says the same thing about post 2000 Autechre.  :D People are affraid of "difficult", sophisticated music. I don't know how to pump some courage into them.

In Finland being an elgarian is somewhat rare.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 12, 2014, 07:00:41 AMI may not have the experience of listening to Elgar as you do as I've only been listening to him for five years, but I've learned more in this past year about the composer than I ever had before and in the this process, I wound up loving the music as a result of listening and research. It wasn't instantaneous of course, but I knew there was so much more to this composer than what lay on the surface as is usually the case for so many great composers.

I don't regard myself an Elgar specialist. I know most of his works and I find his music astonishing. Somehow my head is hardwired for Elgar's music.

I'm glad to hear how you have learned to appreciate Elgar's music more. For me it was "love at first hearing".
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2014, 10:15:06 AM
I don't expect anyone to enjoy this same things I do and I wouldn't expect them to, but, as I said, it's always a plus to meet somebody who likes some of the same composers.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2014, 08:16:23 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 12, 2014, 09:14:20 AMPeople are affraid of "difficult", sophisticated music. I don't know how to pump some courage into them.

I'm not so sure about that, 71 dB. What, in your opinion, is so 'difficult' about Elgar's music?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2014, 08:21:06 PM
I'll share something here that I wrote to some friends on FB about why I love Elgar's music so much:

There's such an interesting dichotomy happening within Elgar's music. On one hand, the music comes across as this majestic, over-confident barrage of sound, but, on the other hand, this seemingly steely exterior is nothing more than a mask for something deeper psychologically. There's this unsettling, unsure feeling that is found underneath even the largest, brashest orchestral flourishes like, for example, the last movement of "Symphony No. 1." For this reason, I think Elgar will continue to capture the hearts and minds of listeners willing to explore his music.

And, yes, this was a copy-and-paste effort. My fingers are so tired from typing. ;) 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 13, 2014, 08:24:05 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 12, 2014, 08:16:23 PM
I'm not so sure about that, 71 dB. What, in your opinion, is so 'difficult' about Elgar's music?

My friend hinted Elgar is "difficult" to him. Maybe I misunderstood him.
For many it seems to take long to warm up to Elgar's works. Didn't it take Karl Henning ages to appreciate Elgar's Symphonies?

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 12, 2014, 08:21:06 PM
I'll share something here that I wrote to some friends on FB about why I love Elgar's music so much:

There's such an interesting dichotomy happening within Elgar's music. On one hand, the music comes across as this majestic, over-confident barrage of sound, but, on the other hand, this seemingly steely exterior is nothing more than a mask for something deeper psychologically. There's this unsettling, unsure feeling that is found underneath even the largest, brashest orchestral flourishes like, for example, the last movement of "Symphony No. 1." For this reason, I think Elgar will continue to capture the hearts and minds of listeners willing to explore his music.

Yes, the "majestic" part of Elgar's music is just coating. The real content is in what I call multidimensional musical structures. Dimensions are melody, harmony, rhythm, tempi, timbre, dynamic variation and so on. Holograms look like 3D reality, but the 2D holographic pictures are actually unrecognizable interference patterns looking nothing like the 3D picture the hologram creates when laser beam is used to decode the interference patterns. The "bombastic" image many people have of Elgar is same kind of flat interference pattern. The real Elgar is exposed only when one starts to listen to the music deeper. Only then people notice all the things you mentioned, all of the rich dichotomy as you put it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 13, 2014, 08:34:59 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 13, 2014, 08:24:05 AM
My friend hinted Elgar is "difficult" to him. Maybe I misunderstood him.
For many it seems to take long to warm up to Elgar's works. Didn't it take Karl Henning ages to appreciate Elgar's Symphonies?

I'm not sure about Karl's history with Elgar and his symphonies, but, personally speaking, it took me quite some time to appreciate them. But, when I actually did, my appreciation for his music became much deeper. As for anyone finding Elgar 'difficult,' well that's probably due to their lack of understanding of his style and the lack of exposure as well. As I mentioned before, I didn't have trouble with Elgar's music initially, but it did take me some time to get my mind wrapped around his sound-world, but I knew I would be rewarded for my effort and I definitely was because this is music of undeniable beauty and power.

Quote from: 71 dB on January 13, 2014, 08:24:05 AMYes, the "majestic" part of Elgar's music is just coating. The real content is in what I call multidimensional musical structures. Dimensions are melody, harmony, rhythm, tempi, timbre, dynamic variation and so on. Holograms look like 3D reality, but the 2D holographic pictures are actually unrecognizable interference patterns looking nothing like the 3D picture the hologram creates when laser beam is used to decode the interference patterns. The "bombastic" image many people have of Elgar is same kind of flat interference pattern. The real Elgar is exposed only when one starts to listen to the music deeper. Only then people notice all the things you mentioned, all of the rich dichotomy as you put it.

Absolutely and people just need to keep listening. Some people may never find a way in, whereas, others may understand right away that there's so much more lurking under the surface.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 13, 2014, 09:07:48 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 13, 2014, 08:24:05 AM
My friend hinted Elgar is "difficult" to him. Maybe I misunderstood him.
For many it seems to take long to warm up to Elgar's works. Didn't it take Karl Henning ages to appreciate Elgar's Symphonies?

Aye, but . . . the concerti were immediate favorites. (FWIW)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 13, 2014, 08:29:55 PM
I've really started to wrap my head around Falstaff now. There are many just hauntingly beautiful moments in this work and not to mention flat-out orchestral virtuosity in the more driven sections.

What are everyone's favorite performances of Falstaff?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 14, 2014, 04:28:13 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 13, 2014, 08:29:55 PM
I've really started to wrap my head around Falstaff now. There are many just hauntingly beautiful moments in this work and not to mention flat-out orchestral virtuosity in the more driven sections.

What are everyone's favorite performances of Falstaff?

Davis/BBC has a good vibe to it.

I think I'm so attuned to Falstaff because it's as close to Strauss as Elgar ever was, not necessarily in a musical voice but rather in style, mostly referring to it being a symphonic tone poem. Too me it's one of Elgar's most colorful works. If I remember correctly, Elgar thought very highly of this work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2014, 04:56:39 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 13, 2014, 08:29:55 PM
What are everyone's favorite performances of Falstaff?

I own Barbirolli, Boult and Davis but can't say which I prefer. I've never done a comparison. Maybe I should.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on January 14, 2014, 05:12:57 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 13, 2014, 08:29:55 PM
I've really started to wrap my head around Falstaff now. There are many just hauntingly beautiful moments in this work and not to mention flat-out orchestral virtuosity in the more driven sections.

What are everyone's favorite performances of Falstaff?

So glad you're enjoying Elgar's Falstaff so much, it's certainly a very gorgeous work!
My favourite performance is the Elder, then the Davis.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 14, 2014, 05:15:24 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 14, 2014, 05:12:57 AM
So glad you're enjoying Elgar's Falstaff so much, it's certainly a very gorgeous work!
My favourite performance is the Elder, then the Davis.

The Elder has better sound than the David IMO, which is a +1 for them.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 14, 2014, 07:28:54 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 14, 2014, 04:28:13 AM
Davis/BBC has a good vibe to it.

I think I'm so attuned to Falstaff because it's as close to Strauss as Elgar ever was, not necessarily in a musical voice but rather in style, mostly referring to it being a symphonic tone poem. Too me it's one of Elgar's most colorful works. If I remember correctly, Elgar thought very highly of this work.

Davis' is a great performance. I have yet to hear Elder's performance, so perhaps I'll listen to that one tonight.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 14, 2014, 07:29:57 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2014, 04:56:39 AM
I own Barbirolli, Boult and Davis but can't say which I prefer. I've never done a comparison. Maybe I should.

Sarge

I like Barbirolli's a good bit, but I think I prefer Davis here. I haven't heard Boult's (yet).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 14, 2014, 07:30:45 AM
I own three performances of Falstaff:

Hallé Orchestra / Sir John Barbirolli / EMI
London Symphony Orchestra / Sir Edward Elgar / Naxos 8.111256
English Northern Philharmonia / David Lloyd-Jones / Naxos 8.553879

Favorite? No clue...  :P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 14, 2014, 07:31:02 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 14, 2014, 05:12:57 AM
So glad you're enjoying Elgar's Falstaff so much, it's certainly a very gorgeous work!
My favourite performance is the Elder, then the Davis.

Definitely will check out the Elder tonight as I believe my recording still remains sealed up. :-[ Besides Elder and Davis, have you heard any others, Ilaria?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on January 14, 2014, 08:58:54 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 14, 2014, 07:31:02 AM
Definitely will check out the Elder tonight as I believe my recording still remains sealed up. :-[ Besides Elder and Davis, have you heard any others, Ilaria?

Definitely have a listen to the Elder, it's beautiful! ;D
No, I've only listened to those recordings so far; suggestions are always warmly welcome, but before checking out other performances of Falstaff, I would prefer to explore Elgar's works I haven't heard yet. The Apostles will be the next one.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 14, 2014, 09:44:10 AM
Definitely Elder for me too, and I own quite a few recordings of it. So much more lively, really fantastic playing. Looking forward to hearing what you think, John. :)

Glad you're enjoying Elgar so much, you know he's been one of my favourites from the very start. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 14, 2014, 05:40:37 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 14, 2014, 08:58:54 AM
Definitely have a listen to the Elder, it's beautiful! ;D
No, I've only listened to those recordings so far; suggestions are always warmly welcome, but before checking out other performances of Falstaff, I would prefer to explore Elgar's works I haven't heard yet. The Apostles will be the next one.

Yes, check out The Apostles. Beautiful work. Have you heard the Violin Concerto? I'm pretty sure you have but I couldn't remember.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 14, 2014, 05:41:35 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 14, 2014, 09:44:10 AM
Definitely Elder for me too, and I own quite a few recordings of it. So much more lively, really fantastic playing. Looking forward to hearing what you think, John. :)

Glad you're enjoying Elgar so much, you know he's been one of my favourites from the very start. :)

Yes, I know you've loved Elgar's music from the very start. I would say it didn't take long for this composer to work his magic on ears either.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on January 15, 2014, 11:23:22 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 14, 2014, 05:40:37 PM
Yes, check out The Apostles. Beautiful work. Have you heard the Violin Concerto? I'm pretty sure you have but I couldn't remember.

I have, actually it's one of the first Elgar's compositions I've ever listened to. A very passionate and powerful work, the sound of the violin is elegant and elaborated (what a beautiful candenza in the third movement), but at the same time lyrical and poetical, and wonderfully supported by the orchestral playing. It's good! awfully emotional! too emotional, but I love it. ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 15, 2014, 12:22:51 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 15, 2014, 11:23:22 AM
I have, actually it's one of the first Elgar's compositions I've ever listened to. A very passionate and powerful work, the sound of the violin is elegant and elaborated (what a beautiful candenza in the third movement), but at the same time lyrical and poetical, and wonderfully supported by the orchestral playing. It's good! awfully emotional! too emotional, but I love it. ;)

The Violin Concerto was one of the first works by Elgar I heard too. I think I had only heard Pomp and Circumstance March No. 1, Enigma Variations and Salut d'amour before it. Such a magical work and in my opinion somewhat overlooked.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 15, 2014, 05:34:00 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 15, 2014, 11:23:22 AM
I have, actually it's one of the first Elgar's compositions I've ever listened to. A very passionate and powerful work, the sound of the violin is elegant and elaborated (what a beautiful candenza in the third movement), but at the same time lyrical and poetical, and wonderfully supported by the orchestral playing. It's good! awfully emotional! too emotional, but I love it. ;)

:D Glad you enjoy the work and, indeed, it's exquisite.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 15, 2014, 05:35:56 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2014, 12:22:51 PM
The Violin Concerto was one of the first works by Elgar I heard too. I think I had only heard Pomp and Circumstance March No. 1, Enigma Variations and Salut d'amour before it. Such a magical work and in my opinion somewhat overlooked.

I'm not sure what the first Elgar work I heard. Probably the Cello Concerto (du Pre/Barbirolli) and I knew after the first couple of measures of the first movement that this music was going to be quite special to me.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 15, 2014, 06:32:44 PM
I received some Elgarian goodies in the mail today...

- Symphonies 1 & 2, In the South (Alassio), and Organ Sonata (arr. Gordon Jacob), Richard Hickox, BBC National Orchestral of Wales, Chandos
- Enigma Variations, Falstaff, Simon Rattle, City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, EMI
- Wand of Youth Suites 1 & 2, Nursery Suite, Dream Children, Bryden Thomson, Norman Del Mar, Ulster Orchestra, Bournemouth Sinfonietta, Chandos
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 16, 2014, 04:43:29 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 15, 2014, 05:35:56 PM
I'm not sure what the first Elgar work I heard.

Oh, in my ears, certainly the famous P&C march, though of course I had heard the tune for the Trio (Land of Soap & Borax) long before I heard the entire March.

After that, probably the first I heard was the Enigma Vars.  Which I liked all right, but they didn't really "sell" me on Elgar.

The experience which really shook me by the collar, so that I took Elgar more seriously, was turning pages for Nigel Kennedy's accompanist when he played the Violin Sonata in Old Cabell Hall at UVa.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 16, 2014, 06:37:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 16, 2014, 04:43:29 AM
Oh, in my ears, certainly the famous P&C march, though of course I had heard the tune for the Trio (Land of Soap & Borax) long before I heard the entire March.

After that, probably the first I heard was the Enigma Vars.  Which I liked all right, but they didn't really "sell" me on Elgar.

The experience which really shook me by the collar, so that I took Elgar more seriously, was turning pages for Nigel Kennedy's accompanist when he played the Violin Sonata in Old Cabell Hall at UVa.

Oh wow, Karl. Sounds you like had a much more intimate encounter with Elgar's music as you were apart of the music-making. I'm sure an experience like that would stay with me for a long time as well. I'm sure Kennedy sounded wonderful that night. His recording of the Violin Concerto (w/ Handley) is one of my favorite Elgar performances. I wish I could see Elgar's music in the concert hall, but he doesn't get performed all that much by the ASO.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 16, 2014, 10:47:24 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 16, 2014, 04:43:29 AM
The experience which really shook me by the collar, so that I took Elgar more seriously, was turning pages for Nigel Kennedy's accompanist when he played the Violin Sonata in Old Cabell Hall at UVa.

Interesting story Karl! When was this and who was Nigel Kennedy's accompanist?

Hopefully Enigma Variations has grown on you since...  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 16, 2014, 10:54:26 AM
At the University of Virginia in the late-ish '80s.  I wish I recalled the pianist's name!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 16, 2014, 11:07:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 16, 2014, 10:54:26 AM
At the University of Virginia in the late-ish '80s.  I wish I recalled the pianist's name!

Peter Pettinger perhaps?

Elgar's violin sonata really shook you by the collar so you don't remember her/his name.  ;)

How did get that in that situation Karl? You volunteered?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 16, 2014, 11:24:52 AM
My shoulder was tapped.  The fellow who organized the series (TECS it was called, Tuesday Evening Concert Series) was looking for a page-turner, and I was in the graduate student office.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on January 16, 2014, 05:27:53 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 15, 2014, 05:35:56 PM
I'm not sure what the first Elgar work I heard. Probably the Cello Concerto (du Pre/Barbirolli) and I knew after the first couple of measures of the first movement that this music was going to be quite special to me.

Land of Soap and Borax was the first I remember--at my high school graduation.  After that, I don't remember any Elgar (probably on the radio,  but lost in the airwaves of memory) until I bought a CD with the Enigma Variations coupled with Maisky's recording of the Cello Concerto,  and the Dream of Gerontius came along not long afterward (in Boult's recording).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 16, 2014, 05:47:05 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 16, 2014, 05:27:53 PM
Land of Soap and Borax was the first I remember--at my high school graduation.  After that, I don't remember any Elgar (probably on the radio,  but lost in the airwaves of memory) until I bought a CD with the Enigma Variations coupled with Maisky's recording of the Cello Concerto,  and the Dream of Gerontius came along not long afterward (in Boult's recording).

I'll have to dig back out Sinopoli's Elgar recordings. I remember not being too impressed with them. If I recall, doesn't he drag the movements out in the symphonies for example?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 16, 2014, 06:08:44 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 16, 2014, 05:47:05 PM
I'll have to dig back out Sinopoli's Elgar recordings. I remember not being too impressed with them. If I recall, doesn't he drag the movements out in the symphonies for example?

Broad, rather than drag. And even with the slower tempos here Elgar's music never feels sluggish, it still retains the intensity and drive.
Try it, you'll like it!  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 16, 2014, 06:17:47 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 16, 2014, 06:08:44 PM
Broad, rather than drag. And even with the slower tempos here Elgar's music never feels sluggish, it still retains the intensity and drive.
Try it, you'll like it!  8)

Okay, I'll give them a listen this weekend. 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 16, 2014, 06:23:42 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 16, 2014, 06:17:47 PM
Okay, I'll give them a listen this weekend. 8)

Of course the 2nd receives more benefits from Sinopoli's style. It did take a while for me to warm up to his 1st recording, but I love it now.
In fact, it's been a while since I've spun Sinopoli's Enigma disc, perhaps later...

...I'm getting Elgaritus.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 16, 2014, 06:29:37 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 16, 2014, 06:23:42 PM
Of course the 2nd receives more benefits from Sinopoli's style. It did take a while for me to warm up to his 1st recording, but I love it now.
In fact, it's been a while since I've spun Sinopoli's Enigma disc, perhaps later...

...I'm getting Elgaritus.

Ah, yes. Well both symphonies require a different frame of mind and no conductor's approach always works for both, which is why I prefer a more middle-of-the-road interpretation like Andrew Davis' and now even Slatkin's. But it's fun to mix things up sometimes and throw in some Solti or Barbirolli. :)

I did receive some Elgarian goodies in the mail today...

Enigma Variations, Pomp & Circumstance Marches 1-5, Cockaigne Overture, Sir Georg Solti, CSO, LPO, Decca
Symphonies 1 & 2, Cockaigne Overture, Sea Pictures, Sir Charles Mackerras, Della Jones, LSO, Royal Phil., Decca
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 17, 2014, 01:00:57 AM
I have Sinopoli's 2nd. I have listened to it only once and I found it weird. Maybe I listen to it again in the near future...
I also need to revisit Elder's 2nd...

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 16, 2014, 06:29:37 PM
I did receive some Elgarian goodies in the mail today...

Enigma Variations, Pomp & Circumstance Marches 1-5, Cockaigne Overture, Sir Georg Solti, CSO, LPO, Decca
Symphonies 1 & 2, Cockaigne Overture, Sea Pictures, Sir Charles Mackerras, Della Jones, LSO, Royal Phil., Decca

That's nice, but do you have Elgar's more obscure works* or do you buy canonical Elgar over and over again?  ;)

* I have to confess there's many small works (songs etc.) by Elgar I haven't heard.  :-\
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 17, 2014, 05:52:57 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 17, 2014, 01:00:57 AMThat's nice, but do you have Elgar's more obscure works* or do you buy canonical Elgar over and over again?  ;)

* I have to confess there's many small works (songs etc.) by Elgar I haven't heard.  :-\

Hmmm....didn't we go over this already? The only part of Elgar's oeuvre that I haven't heard, or been exposed to, are his part-songs. Can't say I'll be getting into these at any point as these kinds of works don't interest me that much. Needless to say, I've heard more Elgar than probably most people on this forum. 8)

BTW, here's what I've heard so far -

Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2
Falstaff
In the South (Alassio)
Sospiri
Enigma Variations
Elegy
Serenade for Strings
Cockaigne Overture (In London Town)
Pomp & Circumstance Marches Nos. 1-5
The Sanguine Fan
Polonia
Carillion
Une voix dans le désert
Sursum Corda
Rosemary
Carissima
Le drapeau belge
Froissart Overture
May Song
Three Bavarian Dances
Chanson de Matin
Chanson de Nuit
Salut d'amour
Three Charateristic Pieces
Minuet
Introduction & Allegro
Severn Suite
Nursery Suite
The Wand of Youth Suites 1 & 2
The Starlight Express Suite
King Arthur Suite
The Crown of India Suite
Dream Children
Romance for Bassoon and Orchestra
Cello Concerto
Violin Concerto


Works with vocal soloists and/or chorus w/ orchestra I've heard -

Sea Pictures
The Dream of Gerontius
The Apostles
The Kingdom
Coronation Ode
The Spirit of England
The Black Knight
The Music Makers
The Starlight Express
From the Bavarian Highlands
The Banner of St. George
Te Deum


The chamber works I've heard -

String Quartet
Violin Sonata
Piano Quintet
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 18, 2014, 04:36:14 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 17, 2014, 05:52:57 AM
Hmmm....didn't we go over this already?

Yes, but it was more of a retorical question.  ;D

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 17, 2014, 05:52:57 AMThe only part of Elgar's oeuvre that I haven't heard, or been exposed to, are his part-songs. Can't say I'll be getting into these at any point as these kinds of works don't interest me that much. Needless to say, I've heard more Elgar than probably most people on this forum. 8)

Yes, you have for sure heard probably more than most, no question about that.

Elgar was good with part-songs, but I agree it's less interesting area of his oeuvre. Go, Song of Mine Op. 57 is perhaps Elgar's best part-song and worth checking out.

The Snow Op. 26, No. 1 for female voices and orchestra is a lovely small obscure work by Elgar.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 18, 2014, 05:25:21 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 18, 2014, 04:36:14 AMThe Snow Op. 26, No. 1 for female voices and orchestra is a lovely small obscure work by Elgar.

I've seen this work mentioned before, but I haven't heard it yet. Will definitely investigate it. Thanks for the suggestion.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 18, 2014, 06:50:20 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 18, 2014, 05:25:21 AM
I've seen this work mentioned before, but I haven't heard it yet. Will definitely investigate it. Thanks for the suggestion.

You are welcome.  ;)

I have 2 versions of The Snow:

Liverpool Philharmonic Choir + Orchestra / Charles Groves / EMI
London Symphony Chorus / Northern Sinfonia of England / Richard Hickox / EMI

Both are good imho, but I prefer Groves. It's possible I am the only one here who keeps mentioning this works but it's a little gem and deserves some attention imo.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 18, 2014, 05:06:01 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 18, 2014, 06:50:20 AM
You are welcome.  ;)

I have 2 versions of The Snow:

Liverpool Philharmonic Choir + Orchestra / Charles Groves / EMI
London Symphony Chorus / Northern Sinfonia of England / Richard Hickox / EMI

Both are good imho, but I prefer Groves. It's possible I am the only one here who keeps mentioning this works but it's a little gem and deserves some attention imo.

Excellent, I know where to get a copy of the Groves. Thanks for the recommendation. I like Groves' conducting anyway. I believe this recording is coupled with The Black Knight correct?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 18, 2014, 05:14:10 PM
Picked these two up quite inexpensively:

(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/UEMI_EL270157__79216__12082011031306-6195.jpg) (http://img.snowrecords.com/lp/7/67225.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 19, 2014, 02:25:57 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 18, 2014, 05:06:01 PM
Excellent, I know where to get a copy of the Groves. Thanks for the recommendation. I like Groves' conducting anyway. I believe this recording is coupled with The Black Knight correct?
(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/UEMI_EL270157__79216__12082011031306-6195.jpg)

Well, that's the performance I am talking about. Hope you enjoy it. ;)

I just have it on a twofer containing Scenes from the Saga of King Olaf also (Handley).
Actually I have this twofer "twice", since discs 20-21 of the 30 CD EMI box constitute the same thing.  :P

[asin]B000005GQD[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 19, 2014, 06:28:46 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 19, 2014, 02:25:57 AM
Well, that's the performance I am talking about. Hope you enjoy it. ;)

I just have it on a twofer containing Scenes from the Saga of King Olaf also (Handley).
Actually I have this twofer "twice", since discs 20-21 of the 30 CD EMI box constitute the same thing.  :P

[asin]B000005GQD[/asin]

:D Yeah, looking forward to hearing it. I wish I could have bought that 2-CD set, but it was quite expensive.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 21, 2014, 11:37:02 AM
Just bought:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41UJED%2Bq17L._SL500_SX300_.jpg)

In the South (Alassio), Froissart, Falstaff, Jeffrey Tate, LSO

Don't know much about Tate as a conductor, but his Elgar seemed to generate some good press. For $4, this is worth a shot and if I enjoy it, then I'll get his 2-CD set of the symphonies.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 21, 2014, 12:46:54 PM
Also bought:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000026D0F.01.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 21, 2014, 01:48:01 PM
Cool purchases MI. Hope you enjoy them.  ;)

(I haven't heard anything Tate)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 21, 2014, 02:14:22 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 21, 2014, 01:48:01 PM
Cool purchases MI. Hope you enjoy them.  ;)

(I haven't heard anything Tate)

Thanks, 71. I'm looking forward to hearing this Gerontius for the simple fact that Janet Baker will be the Angel and how could that be bad. :) It also doesn't hurt to have Barbirolli in the podium either. ;)

As for Tate, I heard he's quite a good Elgarian. I wanted to hear how he did in Falstaff before I pursued any of his other recordings. In the South (Alassio) is harder for a competent conductor to mess up, so I'll be less critical here. ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 22, 2014, 09:42:09 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 21, 2014, 02:14:22 PM
Thanks, 71. I'm looking forward to hearing this Gerontius for the simple fact that Janet Baker will be the Angel and how could that be bad. :) It also doesn't hurt to have Barbirolli in the podium either. ;)

Barbirolli's Gerontius is a good performance, but the sonics is a bit coloured.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 21, 2014, 02:14:22 PMAs for Tate, I heard he's quite a good Elgarian. I wanted to hear how he did in Falstaff before I pursued any of his other recordings. In the South (Alassio) is harder for a competent conductor to mess up, so I'll be less critical here. ;D

Well, I'm interested to hear your impressions.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 22, 2014, 06:04:10 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 22, 2014, 09:42:09 AMBarbirolli's Gerontius is a good performance, but the sonics is a bit coloured.

Good to hear about the Barbirolli being a good performance, but what exactly do you mean by the sound being a bit 'colored'?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Johnll on January 22, 2014, 08:16:35 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 17, 2014, 05:52:57 AM
Hmmm....didn't we go over this already? The only part of Elgar's oeuvre that I haven't heard, or been exposed to, are his part-songs. Can't say I'll be getting into these at any point as these kinds of works don't interest me that much. Needless to say, I've heard more Elgar than probably most people on this forum. 8)

BTW, here's what I've heard so far -

Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2
Falstaff
In the South (Alassio)
Sospiri
Enigma Variations
Elegy
Serenade for Strings
Cockaigne Overture (In London Town)
Pomp & Circumstance Marches Nos. 1-5
The Sanguine Fan
Polonia
Carillion
Une voix dans le désert
Sursum Corda
Rosemary
Carissima
Le drapeau belge
Froissart Overture
May Song
Three Bavarian Dances
Chanson de Matin
Chanson de Nuit
Salut d'amour
Three Charateristic Pieces
Minuet
Introduction & Allegro
Severn Suite
Nursery Suite
The Wand of Youth Suites 1 & 2
The Starlight Express Suite
King Arthur Suite
The Crown of India Suite
Dream Children
Romance for Bassoon and Orchestra
Cello Concerto
Violin Concerto


Works with vocal soloists and/or chorus w/ orchestra I've heard -

Sea Pictures
The Dream of Gerontius
The Apostles
The Kingdom
Coronation Ode
The Spirit of England
The Black Knight
The Music Makers
The Starlight Express
From the Bavarian Highlands
The Banner of St. George
Te Deum


The chamber works I've heard -

String Quartet
Violin Sonata
Piano Quintet


Wowie Zowie!!!! Am I to be permitted to be impressed with you as You Are With .....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 22, 2014, 08:25:38 PM
Quote from: Johnll on January 22, 2014, 08:16:35 PM
Wowie Zowie!!!! Am I to be permitted to be impressed with you as You Are With .....

:P Well, I am an Elgar nut, so this should be expected. ;) Are you a fan of his music? I would be curious to read what you've heard.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Johnll on January 22, 2014, 09:12:34 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 17, 2014, 05:52:57 AM
Hmmm....didn't we go over this already? The only part of Elgar's oeuvre that I haven't heard, or been exposed to, are his part-songs. Can't say I'll be getting into these at any point as these kinds of works don't interest me that much. Needless to say, I've heard more Elgar than probably most people on this forum. 8)

BTW, here's what I've heard so far -

Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2
Falstaff
In the South (Alassio)
Sospiri
Enigma Variations
Elegy
Serenade for Strings
Cockaigne Overture (In London Town)
Pomp & Circumstance Marches Nos. 1-5
The Sanguine Fan
Polonia
Carillion
Une voix dans le désert
Sursum Corda
Rosemary
Carissima
Le drapeau belge
Froissart Overture
May Song
Three Bavarian Dances
Chanson de Matin
Chanson de Nuit
Salut d'amour
Three Charateristic Pieces
Minuet
Introduction & Allegro
Severn Suite
Nursery Suite
The Wand of Youth Suites 1 & 2
The Starlight Express Suite
King Arthur Suite
The Crown of India Suite
Dream Children
Romance for Bassoon and Orchestra
Cello Concerto
Violin Concerto


Works with vocal soloists and/or chorus w/ orchestra I've heard -

Sea Pictures
The Dream of Gerontius
The Apostles
The Kingdom
Coronation Ode
The Spirit of England
The Black Knight
The Music Makers
The Starlight Express
From the Bavarian Highlands
The Banner of St. George
Te Deum


The chamber works I've heard -

String Quartet
Violin Sonata
Piano Quintet

There is actually some good music in your laundry list. If only Bach could measure up. I could post a list but to what avail? Self esteem I have so what need of pride?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 23, 2014, 12:47:34 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 22, 2014, 06:04:10 PM
Good to hear about the Barbirolli being a good performance, but what exactly do you mean by the sound being a bit 'colored'?

The recording is nearly 50 years old. It's not pristine digital sound. Some 50 years old recordings can sound pretty neutral, but I find this recording not that neutral. Maybe it's the acoustics. Maybe it's the microphone set up. Maybe it's both.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 22, 2014, 08:25:38 PM
:P Well, I am an Elgar nut, so this should be expected. ;)

An Elgar nut? Look at my list!  >:D

Chantant
Reminiscences
Harmony Music Nos. 1-5
Intermezzos
Rosemary
Pastourelle Op. 4, No. 2
Virelai Op. 4, No. 3
Sevillana Op. 7
Une Idylle Op. 4, No. 1
Griffinesque
Allegretto on GEDGE
Gavotte
Ave Verum Corpus Op. 2, No. 1
Ave Maria Op. 2, No. 2
Ave Maris Stella Op. 2, No. 3
Adagio Cantabile
Promenades
Evesham Andante
Romance Op. 1
Mot d'Amour Op. 13, No. 1
Bizarrerie Op. 13, No. 2
Eleven Vesper Voluntaries, Op. 14
Etudes Characteristiques Op. 24
Presto
Sonatina
O Happy Eyes Op. 18, No. 1
My Love Dwelt in a Northern Land Op. 18, No. 3
Sursum Corda Op. 11
The Snow Op. 26, No. 1
Fly, Singing Bird Op. 26, No. 2
Organ Sonata 1 Op. 28
Four Dances
Spanish Serenade Op. 23
La Capricieuse Op. 17
Imperial March
Minuet Op. 21
O Salutaris Hostia
Three Characteristic Pieces Op. 10
Serenade Lyrique
Concert Allegro Op. 41
Grania and Diarmid Op. 42
May Song
Weary Wind of the West
Five Part-Songs from the Greek Anthology Op. 45
Skizze
Offertoire
Evening Scene
In Smyrna
How Calmly the Evening 
Love Op. 18, No. 2
Four Part-Songs Op. 53
The Reveille Op. 54
Pleading Op. 48
The Angelus (Tuscany) Op. 56
Go, Song of Mine Op. 57
Song Cycle, for voice and orchestra Op. 59
Two Songs Op. 60
O Hearken Thou Op. 64
Coronation March Op. 65
Crown of India Suite Op. 66
Great is the Lord (Psalm 48) Op. 67
Cantique Op. 3
Carissima
Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2
Falstaff
In the South (Alassio)
Sospiri
Enigma Variations
Elegy
Serenade for Strings
Cockaigne Overture (In London Town)
Pomp & Circumstance Marches Nos. 1-5
The Sanguine Fan
Polonia
Carillion
Une voix dans le désert
Sursum Corda
Rosemary
Carissima
Le drapeau belge
Froissart Overture
May Song
Three Bavarian Dances
Chanson de Matin
Chanson de Nuit
Salut d'amour
Three Charateristic Pieces
Minuet
Introduction & Allegro
Severn Suite
Nursery Suite
The Wand of Youth Suites 1 & 2
The Starlight Express
King Arthur Suite
The Crown of India Suite
Dream Children
Romance for Bassoon and Orchestra
Cello Concerto
Violin Concerto
Sea Pictures
The Dream of Gerontius
The Apostles
The Kingdom
Coronation Ode
The Spirit of England
The Black Knight
The Music Makers
The Starlight Express
From the Bavarian Highlands
The Banner of St. George
Te Deum
The Light of Life
(Scenes from the Saga of) King Olaf
Caractacus
String Quartet
Violin Sonata
Piano Quintet
Two Choral Songs (The Shower; The Fountain) Op. 71
Death on the Hills Op. 72
Two Choral Songs (Love's Tempest; Serenade) Op. 73
Give Unto the Lord (Psalm 29) Op. 74
Carillon Op. 75
Polonia Op. 76
The Fringes of the Fleet
The Sanguine Fan Op. 81
Memorial Chimes for a Carillon
The Wanderer
Empire March
The Prince of Sleep
Beau Brummel
Five Improvisations
Severn Suite Op. 87 (1930)
Adieu
Serenade (1932)
Organ Sonata No 2 Op. 87A
So Many True Princesses
Mina
Symphony No 3 Op. 88 (Elgar/Payne)
The Spanish Lady Suite Op. 89
Piano Concerto Op. 90 (Elgar/Walker)
J.S.Bach orch. Elgar: Fugue in C minor
J.S.Bach orch. Elgar: Fantasia in C minor
Parry orch. Elgar: Jerusalem
Handel orch. Elgar: Overture in D minor
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 23, 2014, 06:31:45 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 23, 2014, 12:47:34 AM
The recording is nearly 50 years old. It's not pristine digital sound. Some 50 years old recordings can sound pretty neutral, but I find this recording not that neutral. Maybe it's the acoustics. Maybe it's the microphone set up. Maybe it's both.

Gotcha. Thanks for the feedback.

Quote from: 71 dB on January 23, 2014, 12:47:34 AMAn Elgar nut? Look at my list!  >:D

Chantant
Reminiscences
Harmony Music Nos. 1-5
Intermezzos
Rosemary
Pastourelle Op. 4, No. 2
Virelai Op. 4, No. 3
Sevillana Op. 7
Une Idylle Op. 4, No. 1
Griffinesque
Allegretto on GEDGE
Gavotte
Ave Verum Corpus Op. 2, No. 1
Ave Maria Op. 2, No. 2
Ave Maris Stella Op. 2, No. 3
Adagio Cantabile
Promenades
Evesham Andante
Romance Op. 1
Mot d'Amour Op. 13, No. 1
Bizarrerie Op. 13, No. 2
Eleven Vesper Voluntaries, Op. 14
Etudes Characteristiques Op. 24
Presto
Sonatina
O Happy Eyes Op. 18, No. 1
My Love Dwelt in a Northern Land Op. 18, No. 3
Sursum Corda Op. 11
The Snow Op. 26, No. 1
Fly, Singing Bird Op. 26, No. 2
Organ Sonata 1 Op. 28
Four Dances
Spanish Serenade Op. 23
La Capricieuse Op. 17
Imperial March
Minuet Op. 21
O Salutaris Hostia
Three Characteristic Pieces Op. 10
Serenade Lyrique
Concert Allegro Op. 41
Grania and Diarmid Op. 42
May Song
Weary Wind of the West
Five Part-Songs from the Greek Anthology Op. 45
Skizze
Offertoire
Evening Scene
In Smyrna
How Calmly the Evening 
Love Op. 18, No. 2
Four Part-Songs Op. 53
The Reveille Op. 54
Pleading Op. 48
The Angelus (Tuscany) Op. 56
Go, Song of Mine Op. 57
Song Cycle, for voice and orchestra Op. 59
Two Songs Op. 60
O Hearken Thou Op. 64
Coronation March Op. 65
Crown of India Suite Op. 66
Great is the Lord (Psalm 48) Op. 67
Cantique Op. 3
Carissima
Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2
Falstaff
In the South (Alassio)
Sospiri
Enigma Variations
Elegy
Serenade for Strings
Cockaigne Overture (In London Town)
Pomp & Circumstance Marches Nos. 1-5
The Sanguine Fan
Polonia
Carillion
Une voix dans le désert
Sursum Corda
Rosemary
Carissima
Le drapeau belge
Froissart Overture
May Song
Three Bavarian Dances
Chanson de Matin
Chanson de Nuit
Salut d'amour
Three Charateristic Pieces
Minuet
Introduction & Allegro
Severn Suite
Nursery Suite
The Wand of Youth Suites 1 & 2
The Starlight Express
King Arthur Suite
The Crown of India Suite
Dream Children
Romance for Bassoon and Orchestra
Cello Concerto
Violin Concerto
Sea Pictures
The Dream of Gerontius
The Apostles
The Kingdom
Coronation Ode
The Spirit of England
The Black Knight
The Music Makers
The Starlight Express
From the Bavarian Highlands
The Banner of St. George
Te Deum
The Light of Life
(Scenes from the Saga of) King Olaf
Caractacus
String Quartet
Violin Sonata
Piano Quintet
Two Choral Songs (The Shower; The Fountain) Op. 71
Death on the Hills Op. 72
Two Choral Songs (Love's Tempest; Serenade) Op. 73
Give Unto the Lord (Psalm 29) Op. 74
Carillon Op. 75
Polonia Op. 76
The Fringes of the Fleet
The Sanguine Fan Op. 81
Memorial Chimes for a Carillon
The Wanderer
Empire March
The Prince of Sleep
Beau Brummel
Five Improvisations
Severn Suite Op. 87 (1930)
Adieu
Serenade (1932)
Organ Sonata No 2 Op. 87A
So Many True Princesses
Mina
Symphony No 3 Op. 88 (Elgar/Payne)
The Spanish Lady Suite Op. 89
Piano Concerto Op. 90 (Elgar/Walker)
J.S.Bach orch. Elgar: Fugue in C minor
J.S.Bach orch. Elgar: Fantasia in C minor
Parry orch. Elgar: Jerusalem
Handel orch. Elgar: Overture in D minor

You double posted many works, so I bolded them as those don't count. :) Your list isn't any larger than mine really. One of the main differences is you've heard more of the choral works than I have. Special note: I have heard all of the Elgar orchestrations, but didn't feel compelled to type them in.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 23, 2014, 10:31:20 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 23, 2014, 06:31:45 AM
You double posted many works, so I bolded them as those don't count. :) Your list isn't any larger than mine really. One of the main differences is you've heard more of the choral works than I have. Special note: I have heard all of the Elgar orchestrations, but didn't feel compelled to type them in.

Yeah thanks! I compiled the list fast and used your list as a starting point. I removed double Sospiri, but apparently there are other works too twice. I have heard more "obscure Elgar", part songs, solo piano works, solo violin works, ... Those works are short. You get a dozen of them on one CD. You probable have more Elgar CDs than I have since you buy so many performances of the main works. I have about 80 Elgar CDs.

I hesitated listing the orchestrations too.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 25, 2014, 06:59:15 PM
Elgar's 2nd symphony may not be as structurally sound as his 1st, but this is more of 'open book' type material, a greater sense that we as an audience are getting to know what's in the composer's mind (and heart) through his music. It's a very personal statement, but also a well composed statement. Because of this, I've always found the 2nd symphony to be Elgar's greatest orchestral achievement. There is so much in the way of color and texture within this score. Melodies will start on one instrument and then seamlessly get passed to another before it ends. Harmonies and counter-melodies given just as equal importance to main melodies, sometimes noted to instruments along with enhanced dynamics so that nothing is hidden. All of this leads to my point, and preference, that when it comes to recordings or performances in most cases, I will take detail to the score and balance within the ensemble over individual interpretations. Not that interpretation is wrong, because isn't every single performance filled with interpretation from beginning to end?
It's a breath of fresh air to hear this recording of the 2nd by Sakari Oramo and The Royal Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra. This performance just feels right to me, especially the tempo throughout. It feels quicker than most if not all others I've heard. It's longer in length to Solti's LPO recording by about 4 minutes, but its pacing has a much smoother glide. Compared to slower takes of this piece it seems less tragic, less theatrical but still with plenty of emotion. The finale's final minutes sometimes gives the sense of someone/something nearing the end, preparing to ascend from life but not before reflecting back. But Oramo keeps things a tad lighter, he instead has our protagonist (if there is one) nearing the end of the day, still filled with his deep thoughts, but looking forward to the future, to a new day, there's more hope involved here. 
Although I won't call Oramo and The R.S.P.O. the final word on this piece (or at least not yet. Ha!), I will say that BIS has given us the clearest and most precise presentation of this mighty piece. It goes back to what I was focusing on earlier, detail. BIS's SACD sound is outstanding, lucid and comprehensive. Imagine sitting behind the strings and in front of the winds for a concert, that's where you'll find your ears. Alright, I understand that's not where the audience sits, but my point is that nothing is lost, no voices get drowned out by poor acoustics or some hot-shot trombone player (it's ok, I know a lot of them). This is one of the best sounding CDs I've heard, also making it a perfect recording for a thorough listen with the score.
Recommended for everyone, and I would highly recommend this recording for anyone who either has a desire, or obsession, to acquire multiple Elgar 2nd recordings, you might find yourself quite surprised. I'm writing this after only one full listen, (with a repeat on the finale, it's that good) but I can say with confidence that Oramo and The R.S.P.O. deserve the same attention that other well known Elgar combos have received. Also, I don't often write this much about a disc so yeah, it must be good. Or is it the fact that I'm on my second beer...oh, never mind. Cheers!  8)


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Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 25, 2014, 07:21:02 PM
A very good disc for sure. I agree with you, Greg, about the clarity of the performance. This said, it still doesn't quite wipe my mind of Andrew Davis' Philharmonia performance on Signum, but it's a nice contrast to some of the more heart-on-sleeve performances I've heard like Barbirolli for example.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 25, 2014, 07:28:43 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 25, 2014, 07:21:02 PM
A very good disc for sure. I agree with you, Greg, about the clarity of the performance. This said, it still doesn't quite wipe my mind of Andrew Davis' Philharmonia performance on Signum, but it's a nice contrast to some of the more heart-on-sleeve performances I've heard like Barbirolli for example.

It's interesting to hear a Finnish conductor with a Swedish orchestra perform Elgar. Not that I wasn't expecting a positive result, but just wasn't expecting to be blown away as I was.

I still need to hear Andrew Davis on Signum, I have his Warner box set, which is good, but always hear better things about his second effort.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 25, 2014, 07:34:45 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 25, 2014, 07:28:43 PM
I still need to hear Andrew Davis on Signum, I have his Warner box set, which is good, but always hear better things about his second effort.

Davis' set on Signum is top-shelf Elgar. The performances are live and have quite a vibrant and energetic feel to them throughout. I can't say the same for his earlier performances of the symphonies on Warner.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 26, 2014, 04:04:33 AM
Thanks for the feedback on the Oramo Elgar 2, Greg. I am very very tempted by this disc....

Elgar 2 is just perfection in my opinion. :) I agree, his greatest achievement and one of my favourite pieces ever. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 27, 2014, 02:22:48 PM
I have just been listenign to Mark Elder's recording of the Enigma Variations with the original finale. I find it much preferable to extended revised version, at 4 minutes the original EDU is on a similar scale to the other variations and seems more in keeping with the idea of the circle of friends.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on May 27, 2014, 03:08:28 PM
I know my Gerontius as well as anybody who owns 8 versions of it, but yesterday was my initiation to The Apostles (Hickox version on Chandos).

Maaaagod ! So different  ! Other hearings are in order to be sure. Thankfully, there are not that many versions around, so a potential addiction would not prove too costly.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on May 30, 2014, 10:20:39 AM
I just have to join the Elgar thread!  :)

Just listened to:
Elgar: Symphony No 2           Halle Orchestra/Barbirolli  [rec 1964]
Elgar: Elegy /  Sospiri            New Philharmonia Orchestra/Barbirolli   [rec 1966]

from
[asin] B000I0SGXA[/asin]

I am not that well versed in Elgar's music (but I am eagerly exploring) apart from the obvious (Enigma Var/ P&P/ Cello Con/ Sea Pictures). Just as with Mahler and Bruckner the symphonies just come across so differently during this time of my life. Ten years ago I just could not focus on Elgar's S1 or S2, but now my mind lingers and appreciates them in a different way. Today's S2 experience was one of those moments and I am actually playing it once again (and I suspect this will repeat itself for life).  The movements all seem so different from each other and each listen seems to allow one to sense the complexity of the symphony. In my ears it has turned from a gritty cacophony to a harmonious journey - layer after layer. A composition that I sense one can form a longterm relationship with.

Regardless, there were two other pieces attached to this Barbirolli compilation.  Both the Elegy and the Sospiri were serene in the invocation of harmony and grace. Somehow I started thinking about Delius, but perhaps that is my imagination?  To me these two latter pieces seem peripheral in the Elgar repertoire so I am surprised at how much I liked them at my very first listen!  It seems critical to continuously reach beyond the established repertoire to at least approach these less recorded compositions.
How do you like "Elegy" and "Sospiri"? Short works, but already part of my favored Elgar pieces. Beautiful!

The Barbirolli set seems like a great starter kit for Elgar. I am also going to listen to the A Davis recordings w/ the BBC SO.  Would you recommend any specific recording from this point on or should I stick with Barbirolli?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 30, 2014, 11:11:16 AM
It's always cool to read people getting more into Elgar's music. The second symphony really is something, isn't it?  0:)

Elegy and Sospiri are fine smaller works by Elgar. Other orchestral miniatures you might enjoy are Wand of Youth Suites 1 & 2 and Nursery Suite. In my opinion Elgar's works are worth exploring, no matter how many times they have been recorded.

I'm not one who knows what's the best version of a given work. I'm just wondering if it's those old Barbirolli recordings making Elgar a bit difficult to get into? Newer crystal clear digital recordings might be a different story. Downes on Naxos was my first Elgar 2 and it's still among my favorites. I need to revisit Barbirolli on these...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on May 30, 2014, 11:39:33 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 30, 2014, 11:11:16 AM
It's always cool to read people getting more into Elgar's music. The second symphony really is something, isn't it?  0:)

Elegy and Sospiri are fine smaller works by Elgar. Other orchestral miniatures you might enjoy are Wand of Youth Suites 1 & 2 and Nursery Suite. In my opinion Elgar's works are worth exploring, no matter how many times they have been recorded.

I'm not one who knows what's the best version of a given work. I'm just wondering if it's those old Barbirolli recordings making Elgar a bit difficult to get into? Newer crystal clear digital recordings might be a different story. Downes on Naxos was my first Elgar 2 and it's still among my favorites. I need to revisit Barbirolli on these...

Yes, E2 is much more intricate and beautiful than I remember. It is indeed very enjoyable to find unexplored layers of music (especially with a renewed encounter). I will check out your recommendations and definitely get a peek at Downes' recording on Naxos.   Life with classical music is a strange blend of the new and the revisitations forming its own unique fugue, don't you think?
I think "best versions" don't really exist. After all it is just guidance and advice with one's own mind forming the bond to the piece (regardless if it is the best version or not). My hypothesis is that we often form a bond with the very first version we encounter...    :)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 30, 2014, 07:18:45 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 30, 2014, 10:20:39 AM
I just have to join the Elgar thread!  :)

Just listened to:
Elgar: Symphony No 2           Halle Orchestra/Barbirolli  [rec 1964]
Elgar: Elegy /  Sospiri            New Philharmonia Orchestra/Barbirolli   [rec 1966]

from
[asin] B000I0SGXA[/asin]

I am not that well versed in Elgar's music (but I am eagerly exploring) apart from the obvious (Enigma Var/ P&P/ Cello Con/ Sea Pictures). Just as with Mahler and Bruckner the symphonies just come across so differently during this time of my life. Ten years ago I just could not focus on Elgar's S1 or S2, but now my mind lingers and appreciates them in a different way. Today's S2 experience was one of those moments and I am actually playing it once again (and I suspect this will repeat itself for life).  The movements all seem so different from each other and each listen seems to allow one to sense the complexity of the symphony. In my ears it has turned from a gritty cacophony to a harmonious journey - layer after layer. A composition that I sense one can form a longterm relationship with.

Regardless, there were two other pieces attached to this Barbirolli compilation.  Both the Elegy and the Sospiri were serene in the invocation of harmony and grace. Somehow I started thinking about Delius, but perhaps that is my imagination?  To me these two latter pieces seem peripheral in the Elgar repertoire so I am surprised at how much I liked them at my very first listen!  It seems critical to continuously reach beyond the established repertoire to at least approach these less recorded compositions.
How do you like "Elegy" and "Sospiri"? Short works, but already part of my favored Elgar pieces. Beautiful!

The Barbirolli set seems like a great starter kit for Elgar. I am also going to listen to the A Davis recordings w/ the BBC SO.  Would you recommend any specific recording from this point on or should I stick with Barbirolli?

Welcome to the wildly addicting world of Elgar! 8) He's certainly one of my favorites and I seem to go through an 'Elgar phase' every year. For the last two years, it's been pretty much around the same time: winter. Who knows why? Anyway, Symphony No. 2 is one of the greatest symphonies ever composed IMHO and a symphony that really took me a long time to fully appreciate. I had a similar experience with Symphony No. 1. But I regard the 2nd as one of Elgar's greatest orchestral works. The breadth of emotion and moods is kaleidoscopic. Such an amazing work.

Have you checked out the Violin Concerto? This is another one of my favorite Elgar works, especially the Tasmin Little/Andrew Davis performance on Chandos, although there have been many fine performances, this Little/Davis is the one I continue to come back to now. Also, don't forget about the mighty oratorios! Such heavenly music. Sea Pictures is another favorite, because like say The Wand of Youth Suites and the Nursery Suite, it showcases Elgar in a completely different light. He truly was a multi-faceted composer. He had a strong intellect but he was never afraid of showing the listener his beating heart.

Yes, Elegy and Sospiri are beautiful miniatures. Check out Introduction & Allegro at some point. This, too, is scored only for strings. Great stuff.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 31, 2014, 05:29:23 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 30, 2014, 11:39:33 AM
Yes, E2 is much more intricate and beautiful than I remember. It is indeed very enjoyable to find unexplored layers of music (especially with a renewed encounter).
I think it took me 6-7 listenings to have a feeling I understand the music of the work completely. It was never a cacophony to my ears.

Quote from: Moonfish on May 30, 2014, 11:39:33 AMLife with classical music is a strange blend of the new and the revisitations forming its own unique fugue, don't you think?
Interesting thought.  0:)

Quote from: Moonfish on May 30, 2014, 11:39:33 AMI think "best versions" don't really exist. After all it is just guidance and advice with one's own mind forming the bond to the piece (regardless if it is the best version or not). My hypothesis is that we often form a bond with the very first version we encounter...    :)
If the first version is good enough, yes.  ;)

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 30, 2014, 07:18:45 PM
Anyway, Symphony No. 2 is one of the greatest symphonies ever composed IMHO and a symphony that really took me a long time to fully appreciate. I had a similar experience with Symphony No. 1. But I regard the 2nd as one of Elgar's greatest orchestral works. The breadth of emotion and moods is kaleidoscopic. Such an amazing work.
To me Elgar's 2nd is THE greatest symphony I have heard, Elgar's 1st following it. Sometimes I regret for having spoiled my ears with Elgar so that many of symphonies sound uninteresting to my ears.  :P

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 30, 2014, 07:18:45 PMHave you checked out the Violin Concerto? This is another one of my favorite Elgar works, especially the Tasmin Little/Andrew Davis performance on Chandos, although there have been many fine performances, this Little/Davis is the one I continue to come back to now. Also, don't forget about the mighty oratorios! Such heavenly music. Sea Pictures is another favorite, because like say The Wand of Youth Suites and the Nursery Suite, it showcases Elgar in a completely different light. He truly was a multi-faceted composer. He had a strong intellect but he was never afraid of showing the listener his beating heart.

Yes, Elegy and Sospiri are beautiful miniatures. Check out Introduction & Allegro at some point. This, too, is scored only for strings. Great stuff.
Elgar's Violin Concerto is somewhat undervalued work imo. I prefer it to the Cello Concerto and it's among my most favorite Elgar works.

Elgar was a master of oratorios. The Apostles and The Kingdom are his greatest oratorios, then comes Gerontius imo. The rest of his oratorios are worthy too.

I like it how different works by Elgar can be. When I explored Elgar back in the 90's I was really surprised to find new aspects of his art with almost every new work to me.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 31, 2014, 07:29:59 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 31, 2014, 05:29:23 AM
To me Elgar's 2nd is THE greatest symphony I have heard, Elgar's 1st following it. Sometimes I regret for having spoiled my ears with Elgar so that many of symphonies sound uninteresting to my ears.  :P

It's an outstanding symphony no question about it, but I love so many other symphonies that I could never say it was my absolute favorite. I simply can't ignore Shostakovich, RVW, Sibelius, or even Martinu.

Quote from: 71 dB on May 31, 2014, 05:29:23 AMElgar's Violin Concerto is somewhat undervalued work imo. I prefer it to the Cello Concerto and it's among my most favorite Elgar works.

+1
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on May 31, 2014, 12:41:46 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 30, 2014, 07:18:45 PM
Welcome to the wildly addicting world of Elgar! 8) He's certainly one of my favorites and I seem to go through an 'Elgar phase' every year. For the last two years, it's been pretty much around the same time: winter. Who knows why? Anyway, Symphony No. 2 is one of the greatest symphonies ever composed IMHO and a symphony that really took me a long time to fully appreciate. I had a similar experience with Symphony No. 1. But I regard the 2nd as one of Elgar's greatest orchestral works. The breadth of emotion and moods is kaleidoscopic. Such an amazing work.

Have you checked out the Violin Concerto? This is another one of my favorite Elgar works, especially the Tasmin Little/Andrew Davis performance on Chandos, although there have been many fine performances, this Little/Davis is the one I continue to come back to now. Also, don't forget about the mighty oratorios! Such heavenly music. Sea Pictures is another favorite, because like say The Wand of Youth Suites and the Nursery Suite, it showcases Elgar in a completely different light. He truly was a multi-faceted composer. He had a strong intellect but he was never afraid of showing the listener his beating heart.

Yes, Elegy and Sospiri are beautiful miniatures. Check out Introduction & Allegro at some point. This, too, is scored only for strings. Great stuff.

Thank you for the warm welcome!
MI, It sounds as if you are a fan of almost every 20th century composer (as well as prog rock w/ Genesis  >:D).  Thanks for all those recommendations. I suspect it will (as always) take years to truly listen to and experience all these compositions. Actually, the very first composition of Elgar's I was drawn to was the 1st movement of Symphony #1 as I listened to it last year. Something pulsing and enigmatic in the theme that made me think about the composer in a different way compared to the P&P theme.

I listened to the famous Sea Pictures yesterday and found it very beautiful. Baker's voice resonated well with the harmony of the music and the lyrics. Are there other versions of Sea Pictures that you would recommend?

Elgar: Sea Pictures      Baker/London SO/Barbirolli

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Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on May 31, 2014, 12:45:35 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 31, 2014, 05:29:23 AM
I think it took me 6-7 listenings to have a feeling I understand the music of the work completely. It was never a cacophony to my ears.
Interesting thought.  0:)
If the first version is good enough, yes.  ;)
To me Elgar's 2nd is THE greatest symphony I have heard, Elgar's 1st following it. Sometimes I regret for having spoiled my ears with Elgar so that many of symphonies sound uninteresting to my ears.  :P
Elgar's Violin Concerto is somewhat undervalued work imo. I prefer it to the Cello Concerto and it's among my most favorite Elgar works.

Elgar was a master of oratorios. The Apostles and The Kingdom are his greatest oratorios, then comes Gerontius imo. The rest of his oratorios are worthy too.

I like it how different works by Elgar can be. When I explored Elgar back in the 90's I was really surprised to find new aspects of his art with almost every new work to me.

Thanks 71 dB! So much to listen to!  Based on yours and MI's posts it sounds as the violin concerto should be next up for me. The oratorios sound like a long journey of its own. Those are definitely peripheral in the standard repertoire. It is interesting to see how most compilations of Elgar (with exception of the vast EMI set) simply compiles the symphonies, the Enigma Variations, P&P and a few shorter pieces.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 31, 2014, 01:10:31 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 31, 2014, 12:45:35 PM
Thanks 71 dB! So much to listen to!  Based on yours and MI's posts it sounds as the violin concerto should be next up for me. The oratorios sound like a long journey of its own. Those are definitely peripheral in the standard repertoire. It is interesting to see how most compilations of Elgar (with exception of the vast EMI set) simply compiles the symphonies, the Enigma Variations, P&P and a few shorter pieces.
Well,  we should always take the time we need to enjoy the music. There is no obligation to listen to anything or need to rush things.

The Violin Concerto is a very good "next step".  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 31, 2014, 07:14:06 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 31, 2014, 12:41:46 PM
Thank you for the warm welcome!
MI, It sounds as if you are a fan of almost every 20th century composer (as well as prog rock w/ Genesis  >:D).  Thanks for all those recommendations. I suspect it will (as always) take years to truly listen to and experience all these compositions. Actually, the very first composition of Elgar's I was drawn to was the 1st movement of Symphony #1 as I listened to it last year. Something pulsing and enigmatic in the theme that made me think about the composer in a different way compared to the P&P theme.

I listened to the famous Sea Pictures yesterday and found it very beautiful. Baker's voice resonated well with the harmony of the music and the lyrics. Are there other versions of Sea Pictures that you would recommend?

Elgar: Sea Pictures      Baker/London SO/Barbirolli

[asin] B008FEHZ38[/asin]

There are a number of 20th Century composers that I don't get on well with, but this isn't the thread for this discussion of course. Anyway, the Baker/Barbirolli is still the best performance of Sea Pictures I've heard and I've heard, and own, many others and none of them come close to the majestic sweep and beauty of Baker/Barbirolli. Hold onto that recording for dear life! The du Pre is my favorite performance of the Cello Concerto, but, like 71 dB, I'm no great fan of the work. There's just something missing. I can't quite put my finger on it. It just doesn't resonate with me emotionally.

Check out The Dream of Gerontius. This isn't my favorite Elgar oratorio (that honor goes to The Kingdom), but it's heralded by many fans as his masterpiece in the genre. Of course, it's a gorgeous work no doubt about it, just not one of my favorites. I really like Mark Elder's performance of Gerontius, so you may want to check that out at some point.

Elgar was a composer that I always liked, but it took me several years to love his music and I'm glad I stuck with it, because, now, he's obviously one of my favorites.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on June 01, 2014, 12:34:21 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 31, 2014, 07:14:06 PM
...the Cello Concerto, but, like 71 dB, I'm no great fan of the work. There's just something missing. I can't quite put my finger on it. It just doesn't resonate with me emotionally.
The Cello Concerto is a damn fine work, but I just find The Violin Concerto a better work. I agree with you about the CC: Something seems to be missing and not until the last part does it even sound truly Elgar. It's kind of a "handicap composition" for a world, where orchestras had been crippled by the WWI. Anyway, this is what Elgar is about. The post war works by Elgar have a more reserved feeling in general.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 31, 2014, 07:14:06 PMquote author=Mirror Image link=topic=3503.msg805858#msg805858 date=1401592446]I really like Mark Elder's performance of Gerontius
+1

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 31, 2014, 07:14:06 PMElgar was a composer that I always liked, but it took me several years to love his music and I'm glad I stuck with it, because, now, he's obviously one of my favorites.
For me it was "love at the first sight". I heard Enigma Variations on radio (December 1996) and I was a changed man. I really knew Elgar is going to be my favorite composer at that moment. Only a decade later when I came to the old GMG site did I realise it actually may take other people years to really get into Elgar. My brain must be hardwired into Elgar mode!  ;D That would explain why I struggle with so many other composers praised by others.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on June 01, 2014, 07:01:00 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 01, 2014, 12:34:21 AMFor me, it was "love at the first sight". I heard Enigma Variations on radio (December 1996) and I was a changed man. I really knew Elgar is going to be my favorite composer at that moment. Only a decade later when I came to the old GMG site did I realise it actually may take other people years to really get into Elgar. My brain must be hardwired into Elgar mode!  ;D That would explain why I struggle with so many other composers praised by others.

I had a similar experience with Ravel. It was love on first listen and I still love, and adore, his music to this day. If there's one composer's music I could take to the desert island with me, it would be Ravel's. First listen to Daphnis et Chloe and I was a man in complete captivation and awe.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on June 01, 2014, 09:44:41 PM
Elgar: Symphony No 1                Philharmonia Orchestra/Barbirolli [rec 1962]
Elgar: Introduction and Allegro    Sinfonia of London w/ Allegri String Quartet/Barbirolli [rec 1962]


from:
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Very enjoyable. My favorite Elgar symphony! For some reason I am really drawn to the themes that recur throughout this symphony and definitely prefer it over E2 (for now that is  ;D). It was also my primary symphonic encounter with Elgar it is perhaps not surprising that I am more attuned to it.  Hmm, the last movement ends quite abruptly (based on my ears). Is that my imagination?
How do you guys like E1?

The Introduction and the Allegro were new to me and very enjoyable. I sense that there is much to explore in Elgar's compositions as long as one give it time.....

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on June 02, 2014, 08:16:34 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on June 01, 2014, 09:44:41 PM
Elgar: Symphony No 1                Philharmonia Orchestra/Barbirolli [rec 1962]
Elgar: Introduction and Allegro    Sinfonia of London w/ Allegri String Quartet/Barbirolli [rec 1962]


from:
[asin] B000I0SGXA[/asin]

Very enjoyable. My favorite Elgar symphony! For some reason I am really drawn to the themes that recur throughout this symphony and definitely prefer it over E2 (for now that is  ;D). It was also my primary symphonic encounter with Elgar it is perhaps not surprising that I am more attuned to it.  Hmm, the last movement ends quite abruptly (based on my ears). Is that my imagination?
How do you guys like E1?

The Introduction and the Allegro were new to me and very enjoyable. I sense that there is much to explore in Elgar's compositions as long as one give it time.....

I like Elgar's 1st pretty good, but, for me, it will always be a symphony I like and not love, although I do love that last movement. You should hear Solti and the LPO rip that movement apart. Very impressive. I always had trouble with that slow movement in the 1st. For me, it really doesn't do much at all. It's certainly the weakest movement IMHO.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: relm1 on June 24, 2014, 11:04:24 PM
Is Elgar/Payne Symphony no. 3 worth getting?  Is it convincing reflection of Elgar's dramatic last stage?   
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 25, 2014, 12:38:33 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 24, 2014, 11:04:24 PM
Is Elgar/Payne Symphony no. 3 worth getting?  Is it convincing reflection of Elgar's dramatic last stage?   
That's a tough one to answer. Whether you will like it because it is Elgar, albeit filtered through someone else, or dislike it because it is not quite as good as other Elgar, I don't know. I thought it a worthwhile listen, and there are some moments of real greatness, even if you don't feel it is sustained. You can give a listen on youtube.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on June 25, 2014, 09:58:30 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 24, 2014, 11:04:24 PM
Is Elgar/Payne Symphony no. 3 worth getting?
Yes, in my opinion it is worth getting. Great music.  :)

Quote from: relm1 on June 24, 2014, 11:04:24 PMIs it convincing reflection of Elgar's dramatic last stage?
Not 100 % of course, but it's what we have to live with and I rather live with it than without.  ;)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on July 10, 2014, 10:35:36 AM
Elgar: Violin Concerto                Hahn/LSO/Colin Davis

Fantastic! I have not paid much attention to Elgar's violin concerto before, but thoroughly enjoyed Hahn's rendition. Great stuff! It will need a second spin tomorrow. Of course, "The Lark Ascending" was sublime as always.

This (I think) was my first listen to Elgar's concerto and I was quite surprised by it beauty. The second and third movements in particular seemed very melancholic and Hahn certainly phrased the passages eloquently.  I have always enjoyed Hahn's performances so I am perhaps a bit biased. What are your favored versions of the violin concerto that one should hear?

[asin] B0002CX4Q8[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on July 10, 2014, 12:54:48 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on July 10, 2014, 10:35:36 AM
Elgar: Violin Concerto                Hahn/LSO/Colin Davis

Fantastic! I have not paid much attention to Elgar's violin concerto before, but thoroughly enjoyed Hahn's rendition. Great stuff! It will need a second spin tomorrow. Of course, "The Lark Ascending" was sublime as always.

This (I think) was my first listen to Elgar's concerto and I was quite surprised by it beauty. The second and third movements in particular seemed very melancholic and Hahn certainly phrased the passages eloquently.  I have always enjoyed Hahn's performances so I am perhaps a bit biased. What are your favored versions of the violin concerto that one should hear?

[asin] B0002CX4Q8[/asin]

Well, nice to hear you enjoyed the concerto. People don't always pay attention too much on Elgar and are surprised when they finally do.

I don't think I have a favorite version (maybe Dong-Suk Kang / Polish NRSO / Adrian Leaper / Naxos 8.550489) and to my own surprise I seem to have only four performances (I thought I had 6 or 7  ??? ). I haven't heard Hahn, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on July 10, 2014, 08:52:24 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on July 10, 2014, 10:35:36 AM
Elgar: Violin Concerto                Hahn/LSO/Colin Davis

Fantastic! I have not paid much attention to Elgar's violin concerto before, but thoroughly enjoyed Hahn's rendition. Great stuff! It will need a second spin tomorrow. Of course, "The Lark Ascending" was sublime as always.

This (I think) was my first listen to Elgar's concerto and I was quite surprised by it beauty. The second and third movements in particular seemed very melancholic and Hahn certainly phrased the passages eloquently.  I have always enjoyed Hahn's performances so I am perhaps a bit biased. What are your favored versions of the violin concerto that one should hear?

[asin] B0002CX4Q8[/asin]

One general problem I have with this otherwise excellent recording from Hahn/Davis is Davis' insistent, ongoing moans and groans. For me, the greatest performance of Elgar's Violin Concerto is Tasmin Little/A. Davis on Chandos. This has all the drama, virtuosity, and flowing narrative that I expect from a performance of this masterwork. My second choice would be Nigel Kennedy/Handley on EMI.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on July 11, 2014, 01:32:25 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 10, 2014, 08:52:24 PMFor me, the greatest performance of Elgar's Violin Concerto is Tasmin Little/A. Davis on Chandos. This has all the drama, virtuosity, and flowing narrative that I expect from a performance of this masterwork.
Maybe that one should be my fifth Elgar Violin Concerto.  ::)

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 10, 2014, 08:52:24 PMMy second choice would be Nigel Kennedy/Handley on EMI.
That one I have. I should revisited it... ...there is so much music it's hard to find time even for your favorite composers and when you do it might completely different works you end up listening.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2014, 06:27:31 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on July 11, 2014, 01:32:25 AM
Maybe that one should be my fifth Elgar Violin Concerto.  ::)

It''s certainly a performance worth owning IMHO.

Quote from: 71 dB on July 11, 2014, 01:32:25 AMThat one I have. I should revisited it... ...there is so much music it's hard to find time even for your favorite composers and when you do it might completely different works you end up listening.

Yeah, I really enjoy this performance. Kennedy brings a fiery passion to this concerto.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on July 12, 2014, 03:35:26 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 11, 2014, 06:27:31 PM
It''s certainly a performance worth owning IMHO.
It's been on my wishlist for a few years. It's even a SACD.  :P

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 11, 2014, 06:27:31 PMYeah, I really enjoy this performance. Kennedy brings a fiery passion to this concerto.
I'll listen to it again soon.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on July 12, 2014, 05:00:52 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 24, 2014, 11:04:24 PM
Is Elgar/Payne Symphony no. 3 worth getting?  Is it convincing reflection of Elgar's dramatic last stage?

Yes, definitely is my view.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on July 30, 2014, 04:52:31 PM
Elgar: The Dream of Gerontius         Watts/Gedda/Lloyd/John Alldis Choir/London Philharmonic Choir/New Philharmonia O/Boult (rec 1975)

Continuing my Elgar journey with "The Dream of Gerontius". Unfortunately, I did not have access to the lyrics while listening to TDOG, but at least it allowed me to focus a bit more on the music rather than the content.  It is actually the first time I listened to the choral work, but I found it quite enchanting in its intricate beauty and varied vocal harmonies. From the very start the prelude was not at all what I expected from Elgar. It made wonder if I had placed the right disc in my player! The composition seems to have a very different soundscape compared to his symphonies. It seems more related to some of the movements in the violin concerto in its poetic thoughtfulness.  It was a beautiful experience making me wonder why I never have bothered to explore these works earlier in my life.
I understand that Sargent's 1945 version is revered among Elgar collectors. I have my eyes on the Pearl release. Would it be worthwhile seeking out a few other recordings of TDOG beyond Boult's rendition?  Which ones would you recommend?  I think TDOG needs a second spin this evening!!!   :)

[asin] B00000GCAV[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on July 30, 2014, 05:00:36 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on July 30, 2014, 04:52:31 PM
Elgar: The Dream of Gerontius         Watts/Gedda/Lloyd/John Alldis Choir/London Philharmonic Choir/New Philharmonia O/Boult (rec 1975)

Continuing my Elgar journey with "The Dream of Gerontius". Unfortunately, I did not have access to the lyrics while listening to TDOG, but at least it allowed me to focus a bit more on the music rather than the content.  It is actually the first time I listened to the choral work, but I found it quite enchanting in its intricate beauty and varied vocal harmonies. From the very start the prelude was not at all what I expected from Elgar. It made wonder if I had placed the right disc in my player! The composition seems to have a very different soundscape compared to his symphonies. It seems more related to some of the movements in the violin concerto in its poetic thoughtfulness.  It was a beautiful experience making me wonder why I never have bothered to explore these works earlier in my life.
I understand that Sargent's 1945 version is revered among Elgar collectors. I have my eyes on the Pearl release. Would it be worthwhile seeking out a few other recordings of TDOG beyond Boult's rendition?  Which ones would you recommend?  I think TDOG needs a second spin this evening!!!   :)
Hallé & Elder is great, in wonderful sound, too.
[asin]B001IO152O[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on July 30, 2014, 06:11:47 PM
Quote from: North Star on July 30, 2014, 05:00:36 PM
Hallé & Elder is great, in wonderful sound, too.
[asin]B001IO152O[/asin]
Yessss!!!!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on July 30, 2014, 06:30:11 PM
Quote from: North Star on July 30, 2014, 05:00:36 PM
Hallé & Elder is great, in wonderful sound, too.
[asin]B001IO152O[/asin]

+1 A wonderful performance.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 30, 2014, 06:43:22 PM
Quote from: North Star on July 30, 2014, 05:00:36 PM
Hallé & Elder is great, in wonderful sound, too.
[asin]B001IO152O[/asin]

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 30, 2014, 06:11:47 PM
Yessss!!!!

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 30, 2014, 06:30:11 PM
+1 A wonderful performance.

Am I too late? One of my favorite discs of the past several years. Alice Coote has one of the loveliest voices I've heard.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on July 30, 2014, 10:58:14 PM
I came across this interesting comparison of different versions of "The Dream of Gerontius":   (up to 1997)

http://www.elgar.org/3gerontr.htm (http://www.elgar.org/3gerontr.htm)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on July 31, 2014, 05:53:26 AM
Gerontius is a magnificent, exquisite work!  Heard it live here in Symphony Hall a few seasons back, and I still get residual chills.

This chat is reminding me that I have not yet listened to Britten's recording of the piece . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on July 31, 2014, 05:54:19 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on July 30, 2014, 10:58:14 PM
I came across this interesting comparison of different versions of "The Dream of Gerontius":   (up to 1997)

http://www.elgar.org/3gerontr.htm (http://www.elgar.org/3gerontr.htm)

Hmm, unfortunately sections 7. and 8. appear to be dead links.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on July 31, 2014, 05:56:12 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 31, 2014, 05:54:19 AM
Hmm, unfortunately sections 7. and 8. appear to be dead links.
Not at my end, but if they don't work, just scroll down. ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on July 31, 2014, 06:01:59 AM
Quote from: North Star on July 31, 2014, 05:56:12 AM
Not at my end, but if they don't work, just scroll down. ;)

Gar, I did scroll down, and saw nothing past section 6.  Hmm, maybe it just isn't finished loading.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on July 31, 2014, 06:02:57 AM
The text also just ends with the first word of a paragraph (and that word, Handley's).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on July 31, 2014, 06:03:20 AM
Well, I shall have to try with some other device.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on July 31, 2014, 06:11:06 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 31, 2014, 06:02:57 AM
The text also just ends with the first word of a paragraph (and that word, Handley's).
This bit?
QuoteNot a comfortable moment.

Handley's Michael George is prodigious in his breath control; as both Priest and Angel of the Agony there is seamless phrasing. As the Priest this (combined with the controlled approach to dynamics) makes him a very comforting figure. His Angel of the Agony opens with a curiously muffled quality on the high Ds and E flats, but he gives a satisfying account of the solo, without achieving the fully searing quality which one finds with Robert Lloyd and Horace Stevens. John Shirley-Quirk appears for both Britten and Rattle and, like Michael George, he has tremendous breath control, achieving long, beautifully-shaped phrasing. His dark-hued baritone fully encompasses both roles. Inevitably, the voice is fresher in his earlier recording with Britten, but ultimately I would choose the performance under Rattle to represent this singer. His Priest has command and warmth in equal measure and his Angel of the Agony is filled with anguish and awe. In this latter part, he really does observe the 'pp' (teneramente) and 'p' (dolce) to spine-tingling effect. Rattle's accompaniment here achieves the right proportions of fear and comfort.
Return to Menu



eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

SECTION 7 - Conclusions


Going through all these recordings within a relatively short space of time has not wearied the ear of the work; rather has it enriched and energised it and left me wishing for more. There are always artists who one hoped would have recorded the work or one hopes might yet do so, but one must not be greedy! We are lucky indeed to have so many recordings to choose amongst. I am not going to be presumptuous in recommending a recording outright - and nothing I have written is going to influence firm adherents to particular recordings or performers - but recently I had cause to introduce Gerontius to an acquaintance for whom it was his first experience of the work. I thought hard and long which recording to use, but I settled for Handley as a good all-round representation in modern sound.

Which recording do I turn to most frequently for sheer pleasure? That is easy : always Barbirolli's 1964 reading. However, in my "desert island" mood I conjure up my own personal ideal : Barbirolli, Vickers, Baker (1964), Lloyd, CBSO & Choir. Mind you, next week it could be Rattle, Nash, Hodgson..... See? The permutations are endless!

Return to Menu

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

SECTION 8 - Discography
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on July 31, 2014, 07:35:58 AM
My most recent Elgar purchase is this twofer of Elgar's songs and piano music:

[asin]B000PGTHVM[/asin]
What makes this release interesting is the instrument: it's Elgar's own piano. This set contains a lot of music I had not heard before, even premiere performances.

The balance between piano and voice is toward voice. I wish the piano part was recorded a few decibels louder. The singers and positioned a bit too right, I wish they were more centered. With headphones the spatial distortion is very very small and the recording works well without crossfeed. The sound of Elgar's piano is fun to listen to, especially 'Prelude and Angel's Farewell from The Dream of Gerontius' played on Elgar's piano is 16 minutes of bliss.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on July 31, 2014, 08:33:33 AM
Quote from: North Star on July 31, 2014, 06:11:06 AM
This bit?

Now it is loading fine.  Sorry about the kerfuffle!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on July 31, 2014, 12:58:35 PM
Elgar: The Music Makers         Baker/London Philharmonic Choir/London Philharmonic O/Boult (rec 1966)

Couldn't resist to follow up the 2x listening of TDOG with "The Music Makers" on the same set. Again, I am freshly impressed with this choral work. Listened to it twice today and find it irresistible. Baker's voice is glorious - rich and powerful - and seems as to be an organic part of this work. Beautiful! Ahh, Janet Baker and Elgar is a great combination!  0:)   I am finding myself more drawn to Elgar's choral works relative to the symphonies. Hmm, I am starting to think that Elgar is an underrated composer.....


[asin] B00000GCAV[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on July 31, 2014, 01:03:01 PM
Went on a small Elgar shopping spree earlier today (heavily under the influence of TDOG and TMM  ::))..

Not very familiar with Boughton and the ESO. I figured that I could not resist the $5 price tag. It is an Elgar recording after all!  :)

[asin] B0000037AY[/asin]

Now I have a heavy compulsion to hear Sargent's 1945 rendition of "The Dream of Gerontius"..... I expect the sound to be subpar (at least the Testament label is likely to be one of the better sound options in that regard). Since this was the first recording of TDOG it will be interesting to compare with later versions.  Sargent also has a 1955 version that seems interesting in my eyes.  The cello concerto with Tortelier is a pure bonus as far as I am concerned.

[asin] B000003XKH[/asin]

and Britten's

[asin] B0000042DD[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on July 31, 2014, 01:09:03 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on July 31, 2014, 07:35:58 AM
My most recent Elgar purchase is this twofer of Elgar's songs and piano music:

[asin]B000PGTHVM[/asin]
What makes this release interesting is the instrument: it's Elgar's own piano. This set contains a lot of music I had not heard before, even premiere performances.

The balance between piano and voice is toward voice. I wish the piano part was recorded a few decibels louder. The singers and positioned a bit too right, I wish they were more centered. With headphones the spatial distortion is very very small and the recording works well without crossfeed. The sound of Elgar's piano is fun to listen to, especially 'Prelude and Angel's Farewell from The Dream of Gerontius' played on Elgar's piano is 16 minutes of bliss.

Ok 71 dB, I will be a copycat and tag along with you on this one. Ordered! Looking forward to it.   :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on July 31, 2014, 01:25:52 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on July 31, 2014, 01:09:03 PM
Ok 71 dB, I will be a copycat and tag along with you on this one. Ordered! Looking forward to it.   :)

Well, it isn't a disc I'd recommend to anyone new to Elgar, but who knows, maybe you even like Elgar's songs.  ;)

At least it is the kind of obscure Elgar most people don't know about.

Btw, happy exploring! Elgar will surprise you several times while you do. Hearing different works from him gives better understanding of the composer's art and you might find the symphonies more satisfying if you re-visit them in the future.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on July 31, 2014, 01:57:51 PM
@71 dB
Would you by any chance know of a good book covering Elgar's life and his times?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on August 01, 2014, 02:24:16 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on July 31, 2014, 01:57:51 PM
@71 dB
Would you by any chance know of a good book covering Elgar's life and his times?
Elgar O. M. - Percy Young
[asin]B000MXUHLC[/asin]I have this, but I must say don't know what is the best Elgar book out there. Most of my Elgar knowledge is from internet.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on August 01, 2014, 03:46:16 AM
I should search Elgarian's posts, I feel certain he has mentioned books of which he thinks well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on August 01, 2014, 07:29:05 AM
Thanks 71 dB and Karl!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on August 01, 2014, 10:00:45 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on August 01, 2014, 07:29:05 AM
Thanks 71 dB and Karl!

You're wellcome. Don't forget to check out http://www.elgar.org/ (http://www.elgar.org/)
(visually the ugliest and crappiest webpages ever but very informative).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on October 08, 2014, 09:11:02 PM
Elgarians rejoice! I'm back from hibernation and walking those glorious trails of the Malvern Hills again! So what's new everyone? I see Moonfish has sunk his teeth into The Music Makers. Wonderful! I love that work, but I prefer Andrew Davis' performance on Warner to Boult's.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on October 08, 2014, 09:14:27 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 08, 2014, 09:11:02 PM
Elgarians rejoice! I'm back from hibernation and walking those glorious trails of the Malvern Hills again! So what's new everyone? I see Moonfish has sunk his teeth into The Music Makers. Wonderful! I love that work, but I prefer Andrew Davis' performance on Warner to Boult's.

Ahh, just a bit. I am still chewing on the delicious Gerontius (TDOG). I find it marvelous and keep listening to the older Sargent recordings!  :P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on October 08, 2014, 09:34:20 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on October 08, 2014, 09:14:27 PM
Ahh, just a bit. I am still chewing on the delicious Gerontius (TDOG). I find it marvelous and keep listening to the older Sargent recordings!  :P

I've yet to connect with Gerontius, but haven't had one bit of trouble connecting with The Kingdom or The Apostles. If backed into a corner, The Kingdom gets my vote for his best oratorio but I'm a strange Elgarian. :) What other works do you enjoy?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on October 08, 2014, 10:52:13 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 08, 2014, 09:34:20 PM
I've yet to connect with Gerontius, but haven't had one bit of trouble connecting with The Kingdom or The Apostles. If backed into a corner, The Kingdom gets my vote for his best oratorio but I'm a strange Elgarian. :) What other works do you enjoy?

I have mostly been hovering around the first two symphonies as well as the violin and cello concertos (beyond Gerontius that is). For some reason I do a lot of repeated listening when it comes to Elgar. I presume it builds some type of attachment and familiarity, but I wonder of there is more to it? Regardless, I do need to dig deeper. I have a feeling of that you have heard quite a bit (or perhaps almost all) of Elgar's works? What is in your most listened to Elgar pile?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on October 09, 2014, 06:58:57 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on October 08, 2014, 10:52:13 PM
I have mostly been hovering around the first two symphonies as well as the violin and cello concertos (beyond Gerontius that is). For some reason I do a lot of repeated listening when it comes to Elgar. I presume it builds some type of attachment and familiarity, but I wonder of there is more to it? Regardless, I do need to dig deeper. I have a feeling of that you have heard quite a bit (or perhaps almost all) of Elgar's works? What is in your most listened to Elgar pile?

Elgar, for me, is the kind of composer that requires multiple listens and definitely benefits from it. He has a way of getting under the skin and stirring emotions deep within. I've probably heard 97% of his oeuvre. Here are my top 5 Elgar works (in no particular order): 1. Sea Pictures, 2. Symphony No. 2, 3. Violin Concerto, 4. The Spirit of England, and 5. Alassio (In the South). Of course, this list is subject to change but these are the works I keep near me whenever I'm in a Elgar phase.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 09, 2014, 08:56:37 AM
Elgar has got tons of obscure small works. Just this week I heard three solo piano works by Elgar I haven't heard before (Laura Valse, March in D major and Impromptu). I have heard quite a lot of Elgar, but it's hard for anyone to reach over 95 %.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on October 09, 2014, 04:16:39 PM
Chips off the workbench: sometimes there is a piece in a larger work that is SO elgarian that the larger work survives and is recorded as a consequence. Spirit of England, Caractacus, Crown of India and even the Pomp and Circumstance Marches are such works.

Then there are those that are SO consistently inspired that they have survived in the general repertoire: the two symphonies, the two concertos, Falstaff, the Serenade, Enigma, Gerontius.

And then there is the rest of the corpus, for example: the two oratorios, King Olaf, etc. The confirmed elgarian needs no encomium, but the neophyte might want to have an inkling of what's out there for him/her.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 29, 2014, 10:23:23 AM
This new Gerontius is getting outstanding reviews, has anyone heard it yet?
[asin]B00N83U9WU[/asin]

My favourite part of the piece just has to be the end of Part 1 with the bass solo. Gorgeous stuff.... And the overture. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2014, 06:52:48 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 29, 2014, 10:23:23 AM
This new Gerontius is getting outstanding reviews, has anyone heard it yet?
[asin]B00N83U9WU[/asin]

My favourite part of the piece just has to be the end of Part 1 with the bass solo. Gorgeous stuff.... And the overture. :)

I have not heard this recording, Daniel, but I have doubts that it will top my current favorite: Elder/Halle. My favorite part of Gerontius is the last section: Softly and gently, dearly-ransomed soul. Truly sublime.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: springrite on November 14, 2014, 06:54:02 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 14, 2014, 06:52:48 AM
I have not heard this recording, Daniel, but I have doubts that it will top my current favorite: Elder/Halle. My favorite part of Gerontius is the last Softly and gently, dearly-ransomed soul section. Truly sublime.

But the Davis is lime.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2014, 07:28:55 AM
Quote from: springrite on November 14, 2014, 06:54:02 AM
But the Davis is lime.

Have you heard this new Gerontius recording, Paul?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: springrite on November 14, 2014, 07:36:47 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 14, 2014, 07:28:55 AM
Have you heard this new Gerontius recording, Paul?
I have, I think, Colin Davis, on LSO LIVE.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2014, 07:40:03 AM
Quote from: springrite on November 14, 2014, 07:36:47 AM
I have, I think, Colin Davis, on LSO LIVE.

Ah, but you haven't heard the new Andrew Davis recording of Gerontius?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: springrite on November 14, 2014, 07:45:40 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 14, 2014, 07:40:03 AM
Ah, but you haven't heard the new Andrew Davis recording of Gerontius?

No, I love the work but it is not one what I feel compelled to seek multiple recordings (which I will probably never have the time to listen.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on November 14, 2014, 11:03:13 AM
I love the big, romantic works:  the symphonies, the violin concerto, The Dream of Gerontius (a work that sends shivers down my spine; I've got a half dozen recordings & have heard it several times in concert, including a Colin Davis performance in New York), etc.  But the small, supposedly "minor" works--of which Salut d'Amour" is probably the best know--also have immense charm.

To my mind, the most perfect of these miniatures is the brief "Adieu," dated 1932 (but who knows when he really composed it?)  Elgar wrote it for piano:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8jumthCBVs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8jumthCBVs)

And Joseph Szigeti made a haunting arrangement for violin and piano, working in the main theme from the first movement of the Elgar Violin Concerto:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LITaK-cHF1Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LITaK-cHF1Q)

These two disks are essential listening for anyone who loves Elgar's music:

[asin]http://B00002R13T[/asin]

[asin]http://B00005AULD[/asin]

Bisengaliev uses Elgar's own violin and bow in these recordings.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 15, 2014, 10:20:21 AM
Quote from: jfdrex on November 14, 2014, 11:03:13 AM
These two disks are essential listening for anyone who loves Elgar's music:

[asin]http://B00002R13T[/asin]

[asin]http://B00005AULD[/asin]

Bisengaliev uses Elgar's own violin and bow in these recordings.
I bought these discs over 10 years ago. Etudes Characteristiques for Solo Violin Op. 24 is wicked!  8)

Now these two discs are available as part of this 3 CD Naxos set:

[asin]B004TWOX6W[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 17, 2014, 05:37:22 PM
Quote from: jfdrex on November 14, 2014, 11:03:13 AM
I love the big, romantic works:  the symphonies, the violin concerto, The Dream of Gerontius (a work that sends shivers down my spine; I've got a half dozen recordings & have heard it several times in concert, including a Colin Davis performance in New York), etc.  But the small, supposedly "minor" works--of which Salut d'Amour" is probably the best know--also have immense charm.

To my mind, the most perfect of these miniatures is the brief "Adieu," dated 1932 (but who knows when he really composed it?)  Elgar wrote it for piano:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8jumthCBVs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8jumthCBVs)

And Joseph Szigeti made a haunting arrangement for violin and piano, working in the main theme from the first movement of the Elgar Violin Concerto:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LITaK-cHF1Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LITaK-cHF1Q)

These two disks are essential listening for anyone who loves Elgar's music:

[asin]B00002R13T[/asin]

[asin]B00005AULD[/asin]

Bisengaliev uses Elgar's own violin and bow in these recordings.
Interesting. These are new to me - will take a gander.

By the way, when you post images using asin, you just need the asin code (without http). I fixed in my post and you can see that the links now work properly.
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on December 02, 2014, 12:20:09 PM
Wow, the Hilary Hahn/Colin Davis account of the Violin Concerto is fantastic!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 02, 2014, 01:06:22 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on December 02, 2014, 12:20:09 PM
Wow, the Hilary Hahn/Colin Davis account of the Violin Concerto is fantastic!

I would enjoy it a lot more if Davis wouldn't grunt through it. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 02, 2014, 01:19:15 PM
My favorite performance of Elgar's Violin Concerto right now is Tasmin Little's on Chandos. Truly exemplary performance. Check it out, Leo!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on December 02, 2014, 01:20:50 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 02, 2014, 01:19:15 PM
My favorite performance of Elgar's Violin Concerto right now is Tasmin Little's on Chandos. Truly exemplary performance. Check it out, Leo!

Better than Hahn?!?!?!?!   ??? ???

(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/706/073/4cf.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 02, 2014, 02:23:38 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on December 02, 2014, 01:20:50 PM
Better than Hahn?!?!?!?!   ??? ???

(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/706/073/4cf.jpg)

Don't get me wrong I like Hahn's playing a lot but it's Davis who makes this recording unlistenable. Hahn's performance is excellent. The reason I prefer Little is because I believe she plays it more along the lines as I would like to hear it. She's an emotional violinist and also completely in-tune with the twists and turns in this concerto. Andrew Davis' accompaniment is also spot-on.
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on December 05, 2014, 11:45:46 AM

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 02, 2014, 01:19:15 PM
My favorite performance of Elgar's Violin Concerto right now is Tasmin Little's on Chandos. Truly exemplary performance. Check it out, Leo!

Thanks John I will listen to the Tasmin on Spotify :)

Really in the Elgar mood this winter!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 05, 2014, 07:11:00 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on December 05, 2014, 11:45:46 AM
Thanks John I will listen to the Tasmin on Spotify :)

Really in the Elgar mood this winter!

Sounds good, Leo. 8) It seems I get into an Elgar/RVW mood around January.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2014, 07:14:01 PM
Coming in February:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71fQ8WEPDJL._SL1000_.jpg)

The prospect of another performance of The Spirit of England has me drooling. The other works look quite interesting as well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on December 29, 2014, 04:08:22 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 27, 2014, 07:14:01 PM
Coming in February:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71fQ8WEPDJL._SL1000_.jpg)

The prospect of another performance of The Spirit of England has me drooling. The other works look quite interesting as well.

Indeed!

Somehow I had assumed (without giving it much thought) that Andrew Davis had recorded the complete King Arthur score.  Obviously I must have been dreaming!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 29, 2014, 06:16:32 PM
Quote from: jfdrex on December 29, 2014, 04:08:22 PM
Indeed!

Somehow I had assumed (without giving it much thought) that Andrew Davis had recorded the complete King Arthur score.  Obviously I must have been dreaming!

Hah! A word about The Spirit of England: I've heard all of the other performances of this work with the obvious exception of this new one coming out and nothing comes close to the feeling I get from the Teresa Cahill performance.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 29, 2014, 11:38:05 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 27, 2014, 07:14:01 PM
Coming in February:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71fQ8WEPDJL._SL1000_.jpg)

The prospect of another performance of The Spirit of England has me drooling. The other works look quite interesting as well.

Seems to be out already (29 Sep 2014) on Amazon.  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 30, 2014, 07:00:56 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 29, 2014, 11:38:05 PM
Seems to be out already (29 Sep 2014) on Amazon.  8)

But not in the States. :(
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 30, 2014, 08:14:54 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2014, 07:00:56 AM
But not in the States. :(

Yeah, you probably save some money on shipping waiting for the local release.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 02, 2015, 02:17:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 27, 2014, 07:14:01 PM
Coming in February:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71fQ8WEPDJL._SL1000_.jpg)

The prospect of another performance of The Spirit of England has me drooling. The other works look quite interesting as well.

I've been away for quite a while, but wondered if this new recording of The Spirit of England might have generated a bit of discussion, so thought I'd pop in to see.

I've loved this piece for many years and have written about it a lot on this forum (see my earlier posts in this Elgar thread). The Spirit of England has for a long time been terribly overlooked and under-rated, but because of the WW1 remembrances there have actually been some live performances of it during 2014, and now comes this new recording. As one of my most-loved Elgar works, it was an obvious and immediate purchase for me.

Of the previously available recordings, one stands head and shoulders above the rest, and I've banged on about it for years - the Alexander Gibson recording with Teresa Cahill as soloist. (Mirror Image mentions it in his post.) It's the kind of recording that is capable of significantly changing one's musical perceptions, and when I first listened to it many years ago, it did just that.

Now there are horses for courses, and there are all kinds of recordings that suit all kinds of people, and vive la difference, and all that.  But I must say that this new recording just doesn't do it for me. I can't comment on the technical aspects of the performance, but the whole feeling is somehow lightweight - surely, surely, not the approach one would expect for a work of this stature. To my ears there is a universe of difference between the soul-felt richness and nuanced power that Cahill brings to the soloist part, and the curiously light and airy performance of this new recording.

I'm not saying don't try it. It may suit other temperaments. But I suspect that the one listening I've already given my copy is all that it's likely to get. The Cahill/Gibson recording changed me in important ways when I first heard it. If I'd heard this recording instead, I think it would have made little impact on me. If you're going to try The Spirit of England, not having heard it before, then my suggestion is that this is not the place to start.

Happy new year to all my old chums, by the way!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 02, 2015, 05:28:28 AM
Elgarian! Welcome back (I hope)! Thanks for the mini-review. I think I'll save my money and not get the recording. I'm of course with you in thinking that Cahill/Gibson will never be bettered. That performance is stamped into my psyche forever.

In other Elgar news, it seems Andrew Davis is coming out with a recording of King Olaf in February. Are you, Elgarian, or anyone else excited about the prospect of getting a more modern reading of this little known work?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 02, 2015, 10:39:19 AM
Welcome back Elgarian!  ;)

It's hard to keep up with all the releases. Cahill is Cahill. The new one has complete Arthur...  :-X
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 02, 2015, 12:49:06 PM
How does the Hickox recording of "The Spirit of England" compare to Gibson's?

[asin] B000005GSB[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 02, 2015, 05:21:31 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 02, 2015, 12:49:06 PM
How does the Hickox recording of "The Spirit of England" compare to Gibson's?

[asin] B000005GSB[/asin]

It doesn't compare. There, I said what had to be said. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 02, 2015, 08:52:46 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 02, 2015, 05:21:31 PM
It doesn't compare. There, I said what had to be said. ;) ;D

:D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 02, 2015, 08:57:09 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 02, 2015, 12:49:06 PM
How does the Hickox recording of "The Spirit of England" compare to Gibson's?

[asin] B000005GSB[/asin]

Hard to pin down, and even harder to express, but the chief problem with it, for me, is that while Felicity Lott sings the soloist part beautifully enough as a series of notes, she somehow manages to sing the words as if they don't have any meaning. Or at least, they aren't invested with the gravitas and emotional weight that Cahill gives them. Just to compare the first line when the soloist comes in ('Spirit of England go before us') is enough to make the difference clear. Lott sings the word 'England' as if it were just another word. Cahill sings it with the whole force of Albion behind her.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 02, 2015, 09:09:59 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 02, 2015, 08:57:09 PM
Hard to pin down, and even harder to express, but the chief problem with it, for me, is that while Felicity Lott sings the soloist part beautifully enough as a series of notes, she somehow manages to sing the words as if they don't have any meaning. Or at least, they aren't invested with the gravitas and emotional weight that Cahill gives them. Just to compare the first line when the soloist comes in ('Spirit of England go before us') is enough to make the difference clear. Lott sings the word 'England' as if it were just another word. Cahill sings it with the whole force of Albion behind her.

Absolutely agree with this, Elgarian. Lott, while a wonderful vocalist, doesn't actually feel this music whatsoever IMHO. I also don't think Hickox is actually quite attuned to it either, although he does get some great playing from the Northern Sinfonia. I just don't actually get goosebumps or chills from this performance like I do Carhill/Gibson. So many times what looks good on paper and what would seem like a dream match ends up being a disappointment. I had no knowledge of Cahill's singing prior to her masterful performance but I was well aware of Gibson's conducting, which I always admired. I have you to thank for pointing me, although indirectly, to this recording.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 03, 2015, 01:01:42 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 02, 2015, 05:28:28 AM
In other Elgar news, it seems Andrew Davis is coming out with a recording of King Olaf in February. Are you, Elgarian, or anyone else excited about the prospect of getting a more modern reading of this little known work?

Sorry I missed this question yesterday. I must confess King Olaf isn't one of my favourite Elgar works, so I'll be one of those who waits and sees, rather than plunging in with a purchase.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 03, 2015, 02:25:22 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 02, 2015, 12:49:06 PM
How does the Hickox recording of "The Spirit of England" compare to Gibson's?

[asin] B000005GSB[/asin]
I bought/heard Hickox a decade before Gibson. Personally I didn't find Gibson (Cahill) that much better, but I'm minority on this it seems. I think I pay less attention to the singing and more attention to the orchestra than others. In other words, Hickox compares well imo. My opinion may change of course.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 03, 2015, 06:49:22 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 03, 2015, 01:01:42 AM
Sorry I missed this question yesterday. I must confess King Olaf isn't one of my favourite Elgar works, so I'll be one of those who waits and sees, rather than plunging in with a purchase.

I'll probably wait and see as well, although I never heard King Olaf.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 03, 2015, 08:17:54 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 03, 2015, 02:25:22 AM
I bought/heard Hickox a decade before Gibson. Personally I didn't find Gibson (Cahill) that much better, but I'm minority on this it seems. I think I pay less attention to the singing and more attention to the orchestra than others. In other words, Hickox compares well imo. My opinion may change of course.

Well, for me, I listen to the singing and how the orchestra accompanies the vocals since this work is categorized as a cantata. Don't worry about feeling in the minority about anything, 71 dB. I'm probably in the minority with how I feel about Boult's Elgar performances, which I characterized as "mannered and too refined."
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 03, 2015, 12:26:19 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 03, 2015, 06:49:22 AM
although I never heard King Olaf.

I'd say if your expectations are quite low, there's a chance you might get a pleasant surprise. After all, it's a serious Elgar work and so to an Elgarian it can't be entirely devoid of interest. But I don't consider it to be anywhere near the stature of the neglected masterpiece that is The Spirit of England, and it doesn't have the epic sweep and rich tunefulness of Caractacus.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 03, 2015, 12:54:42 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 03, 2015, 12:26:19 PM
I'd say if your expectations are quite low, there's a chance you might get a pleasant surprise. After all, it's a serious Elgar work and so to an Elgarian it can't be entirely devoid of interest. But I don't consider it to be anywhere near the stature of the neglected masterpiece that is The Spirit of England, and it doesn't have the epic sweep and rich tunefulness of Caractacus.

Well, I can always expect to enjoy Elgar's music. I don't think I've ever heard a work of his that didn't do anything for me. There's always something good to be found in his music whether it be a melody, rhythm, or a certain harmonic idea. BTW, have you heard Andrew Davis' new recording of Gerontius? It's coupled with Sea Pictures, which is a work I'm extremely biased about since I haven't heard a recorded performance that betters Baker/Barbirolli, so I remain skeptical about this new one.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 03, 2015, 01:12:23 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 03, 2015, 12:26:19 PM
I'd say if your expectations are quite low, there's a chance you might get a pleasant surprise. After all, it's a serious Elgar work and so to an Elgarian it can't be entirely devoid of interest. But I don't consider it to be anywhere near the stature of the neglected masterpiece that is The Spirit of England, and it doesn't have the epic sweep and rich tunefulness of Caractacus.

The Spirit of England and King Olaf are so different kind of works that I wouldn't compare them, but King Olaf and Caractacus can be compared with ease and of course Caractacus is better of these two. That said, King Olaf has it's charm to us Elgarians as you said.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 03, 2015, 01:24:08 PM
Elgar: The Kingdom Op 51             Price/Minton/Young/Shirley-Quirk/London Philharmonic Choir & Orchestra/Boult

I am having my very first exposure to The Kingdom. Elgar certainly has a unique auditory fingerprint as he weaves the strands of the orchestra and chorus throughout the work. I have become attuned to The Dream of Gerontius over the last year so I cannot help but to compare the two compositions. The Kingdom seems more chaotic (structure), but is filled with brilliant light in so many passages. There is such a solid warm core in these works that I have begun to admire in so many ways. I find myself very much enjoying the listening experience. Elgar is such an underrated composer!

[asin] B00000DOAK[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91As4cczrXL._SL1500_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IPst9GNyL.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 03, 2015, 02:15:27 PM
You should definitely check out Elder's performance of the The Kingdom, Moonfish. You'll thank me later. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 03, 2015, 02:30:43 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 03, 2015, 02:15:27 PM
You should definitely check out Elder's performance of the The Kingdom, Moonfish. You'll thank me later. ;) ;D

Hmm, how is Elder's performance of TDOG? Do you think these recordings (Hallé) ever will be issued as a set or will they remain solitary stars floating in the ether?

Note: I see that you already answered the last question in the PT thread.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 03, 2015, 02:32:01 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 03, 2015, 02:30:43 PM
Hmm, how is Elder's performance of TDOG? Do you think these recordings (Hallé) ever will be issued as a set or will they remain solitary stars floating in the ether?

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 03, 2015, 02:20:26 PM...as I mentioned to you on the Elgar thread, you've got to check out Elder's Elgar series with the Halle Orchestra. Hopefully, one day, they'll box up the series and this would certainly make it convenient for the collector who hasn't explored this series yet.

8)

But to answer your first question (as I've already answered the second one), I think Elder's performance is jaw-dropping. One of the most magnificent performances I know of Gerontius.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 03, 2015, 08:43:14 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 03, 2015, 01:24:08 PM
Elgar: The Kingdom Op 51             Price/Minton/Young/Shirley-Quirk/London Philharmonic Choir &amp; Orchestra/Boult

I am having my very first exposure to The Kingdom. Elgar certainly has a unique auditory fingerprint as he weaves the strands of the orchestra and chorus throughout the work. I have become attuned to The Dream of Gerontius over the last year so I cannot help but to compare the two compositions. The Kingdom seems more chaotic (structure), but is filled with brilliant light in so many passages. There is such a solid warm core in these works that I have begun to admire in so many ways. I find myself very much enjoying the listening experience. Elgar is such an underrated composer!

[asin] B00000DOAK[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91As4cczrXL._SL1500_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IPst9GNyL.jpg)
Wonderful and true description of this great choral work, I'm new to it too and LOVE it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 03, 2015, 08:47:17 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 03, 2015, 08:43:14 PM
Wonderful and true description of this great choral work, I'm new to it too and LOVE it.

It's a Leo sighting! I hope all is well with you my friend. I hope you had a nice holiday season.

Here's a difficult question for all my fellow Elgarians, if you had to take one Elgar work to the desert island, what would it be and why?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 03, 2015, 09:08:46 PM
I think the work I'd take to that desert island is a pretty obvious one, especially after this post I made via the 'Listening' thread:

QuoteAs for why I like Symphony No. 2, allow me to be a bit indulgent here. I suppose a lot of has to do with how I relate to the music and what I actually perceive therein. I think the work has the whole gamut of the human experience in 60 something minutes. It's the second movement, Larghetto, that is the centerpiece of the whole symphony and the movement I most identify with. I think there is an incredible loneliness in this movement. The same loneliness I feel when I sigh and think about how I'm merely marking time and don't really know what to do. It's like he's trying to feel a void that can never be filled. It's like an emptiness and the only way to deal with it is through reflection and by tying up loose emotional ends of the past. Words can't actually do justice to the emotional weight this whole symphony carries for me. I really relate to Elgar's music because the music itself feels like it has this hard, outer shell, but what lay underneath is this whole universe of humanity and what it actually means to feel the myriad of experiences that come our way.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 03, 2015, 10:44:33 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 03, 2015, 08:47:17 PM
It's a Leo sighting! I hope all is well with you my friend. I hope you had a nice holiday season.

Here's a difficult question for all my fellow Elgarians, if you had to take one Elgar work to the desert island, what would it be and why?

Well, I am an Elgar rookie, but I would bring "The Dream of Gerontius" with me. The work has continuously surprised me in its ability to make me more interested in its soundscape. The music of TDOG resonates with me. It would be my desert island work (although I may change my mind after a longer and more extensive journey in Elgar's realm).  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 03, 2015, 11:11:10 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 03, 2015, 08:43:14 PM
Wonderful and true description of this great choral work, I'm new to it too and LOVE it.

Thanks Leo! I'm glad that I am not the only one encountering new experiences in this thread. Elgar has surprised me quite a bit as a composer.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 04, 2015, 12:07:29 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 03, 2015, 09:08:46 PM
I think the work I'd take to that desert island is a pretty obvious one, especially after this post I made via the 'Listening' thread:
Hi John! happy new year my friend! Great and amazing post regarding your love for Elgar's 2nd.

I would choose the 2nd Symphony too. My wife and I recently moved to the cold winter state of Minnesota and I'm starting a new job. Elgar has been the tonic to help get through a whole new environment and experience,  especially listening to the 2nd Symphony.

It took a while for this work to click but now it's like a revelation - how didn't I hear these melodies and harmonies before? The structure of the 2nd is such an organic symphonic experience and profoundly moving.

I've been listening to many recordings and love them all, it would be hard to choose a favorite.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 04, 2015, 12:10:25 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 03, 2015, 11:11:10 PM
Thanks Leo! I'm glad that I am not the only one encountering new experiences in this thread. Elgar has surprised me quite a bit as a composer.
He has surprised me too. His music is so unique and original, it's a wonder!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 04, 2015, 05:12:33 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 03, 2015, 11:11:10 PMElgar has surprised me quite a bit as a composer.
Quote from: Leo K. on January 04, 2015, 12:10:25 AMHe has surprised me too. His music is so unique and original, it's a wonder!

I discovered Elgar's music in 1997. It hit me really hard, harder than any other composer. I started to praise Elgar to everyone and to me disappointment people were not enthusiastic at all. Years later I became a member of GMG. During these years I have noticed how some people find the greatness of Elgar when they give him a good chance. Every time someone finds Elgar's true genius I feel good. I don't feel so strongly I'm insane calling Elgar the greatest* composer of all time alongside J.S.Bach.  8)

People find Elgar on their own term and time - if they ever do. Moonfish & Leo K.: glad you have gotten into Elgar  8)

__________________________________________________________________
* How do you define greatness? What Elgar's music means to me is greatness to me.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on January 04, 2015, 05:33:15 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 04, 2015, 05:12:33 AMI don't feel I'm not completely insane calling Elgar the greatest* composer of all time alongside J.S.Bach.
I agree that it is not possible to not be insane and think this.  8)

Elder's Elgar is indeed excellent.

Oh, and here are two pieces which ought to be mentioned more often: The Music Makers and Falstaff.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 06:25:00 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 04, 2015, 12:07:29 AM
Hi John! happy new year my friend! Great and amazing post regarding your love for Elgar's 2nd.

I would choose the 2nd Symphony too. My wife and I recently moved to the cold winter state of Minnesota and I'm starting a new job. Elgar has been the tonic to help get through a whole new environment and experience,  especially listening to the 2nd Symphony.

It took a while for this work to click but now it's like a revelation - how didn't I hear these melodies and harmonies before? The structure of the 2nd is such an organic symphonic experience and profoundly moving.

I've been listening to many recordings and love them all, it would be hard to choose a favorite.

Thank you, Leo! :) Good to hear Elgar's 2nd affects you as well. Like you, it took some time for this work to really make sense and to finally take ahold of me, but when it did, many of his other works that I always enjoyed sounded even better. Such a remarkable composer.

Good luck to you on your new job and your new life in Minnesota.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 06:28:18 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 03, 2015, 10:44:33 PM
Well, I am an Elgar rookie, but I would bring "The Dream of Gerontius" with me. The work has continuously surprised me in its ability to make me more interested in its soundscape. The music of TDOG resonates with me. It would be my desert island work (although I may change my mind after a longer and more extensive journey in Elgar's realm).  :)

Well, for what it's worth, I'm glad you're a fan and it's going to be great to hear your thoughts on all of these works that are awaiting you. I had always enjoyed Elgar but when he finally clicked with me, I fell in love with the music. I think one of the works that really brought his emotional world to my attention and turned me from an admirer into a dedicated Elgarian was The Spirit of England.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 04, 2015, 07:14:58 AM
Quote from: North Star on January 04, 2015, 05:33:15 AM
I agree that it is not possible to not be insane and think this.  8)

I was visiting my parents and  I had to suddenly finish my message fast, because another person wanted to check her emails... I edited my message now. Damn it's difficult to express myself correctly sometimes!  ::)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 04, 2015, 07:59:46 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 06:25:00 AM
...it took some time for this work [2nd symphony] to really make sense and to finally take ahold of me, but when it did, many of his other works that I always enjoyed sounded even better. Such a remarkable composer.

I remember it took 6-7 listenings for me to "fully" understand the symphony. I think I understood about 40 % on the first listening and I knew it's going to be mindblowing after a few more times. The more I explored Elgar, the easier it was to "get" a new works because Elgar's musical language got familiar. You must be meaning this saying works that you enjoyed already sounded even better, right?

That seems to be Elgar's "problem". Many people evaluate him thinking his musical language is rather simple (e.g. "pompastic"), when it's not. On the other hand, Elgar is able to really surprise those who are willing to explore him harder.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 06:28:18 AM
I had always enjoyed Elgar but when he finally clicked with me, I fell in love with the music. I think one of the works that really brought his emotional world to my attention and turned me from an admirer into a dedicated Elgarian was The Spirit of England.

I listened to The Spirit of England (Gibson/Cahill) again yesterday. I noticed that Cahill uses quite a lot of vibrato. The recording also suffers from quite of strong noise floor considering it was done in 1976. Lott (Hickox's version) uses vibrato too, but somehow her vibrato suites the work better. Maybe I simply find Cahill too emotional?  ::)

I also listened to the Piano Concerto "realised" by Robert Walker. Purists can say whatever they want, but I find it a very enjoyable concerto that sounds very Elgarian.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 08:12:10 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 04, 2015, 07:59:46 AM
I remember it took 6-7 listenings for me to "fully" understand the symphony. I think I understood about 40 % on the first listening and I knew it's going to be mindblowing after a few more times. The more I explored Elgar, the easier it was to "get" a new works because Elgar's musical language got familiar. You must be meaning this saying works that you enjoyed already sounded even better, right?

That seems to be Elgar's "problem". Many people evaluate him thinking his musical language is rather simple (e.g. "pompastic"), when it's not. On the other hand, Elgar is able to really surprise those who are willing to explore him harder.

I listened to The Spirit of England (Gibson/Cahill) again yesterday. I noticed that Cahill uses quite a lot of vibrato. The recording also suffers from quite of strong noise floor considering it was done in 1976. Lott (Hickox's version) uses vibrato too, but somehow her vibrato suites the work better. Maybe I simply find Cahill too emotional?  ::)

I also listened to the Piano Concerto "realised" by Robert Walker. Purists can say whatever they want, but I find it a very enjoyable concerto that sounds very Elgarian.

Yes, I meant that when Symphony No. 2 finally clicked with me and the other works I had heard, and already enjoyed, really opened up to me in a completely new way. As for your preference for Lott/Hickox in The Spirit of England that's certainly okay with me, I simply can't find much in that performance by the way of emotional depth. Cahill may have such and such imperfections or the recording quality may not be as good as it could have been, but this remains an emotional listening experience for me for the simple reason that I feel that all involved with the work believed in the music and put their absolute heart into it. I'm not looking for a polished performance when I listen to Elgar or really any composer whose music means a lot to me, I'm looking for a commitment from the musicians. That's enough to make to take notice and, in turn, feel hopefully what they felt when performing the work.

I haven't heard the Piano Concerto yet, but I honestly don't have much interest in it since it was realized by someone else other than Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 08:24:28 AM
As for people not realizing how brilliant Elgar was, I think it's really just a matter of, like you said, 71 dB, people not wanting to understand the complexity of the musical language and not really digging enough into his oeuvre to find anything out for themselves. I always knew there was something more to this composer than what his 'ceremonial' works otherwise tell us. When I first heard a work like the Cello Concerto or Sea Pictures, I was completely taken aback by how sophisticated of a composer he actually was and how his music contains so many musical avenues to explore. Just when you think you have a certain work figured out, he hits you from a completely different direction altogether that you weren't expecting at all.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 08:39:38 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 03, 2015, 01:12:23 PMThat said, King Olaf has it's charm to us Elgarians as you said.  ;)

Which would be reason enough for me to want to give it a listen. Looking forward to the new Andrew Davis recording of it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 04, 2015, 09:31:27 AM
What about the Andrew Davis Gerontius on Chandos? I' MUCH interested in hearing what you guys think...  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: André on January 04, 2015, 09:31:27 AM
What about the Andrew Davis Gerontius on Chandos? I' MUCH interested in hearing what you guys think...  :)

I asked this question earlier to no avail.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 09:41:50 AM
But, as I also mentioned earlier, the Andrew Davis Gerontius is up against some stiff competition. I mean Barbirolli and Elder alone make wonder why I even bought other performances, but I suppose there's a part of me that hopes to find some kind of nuance not touched on before and Andrew Davis being a dedicated Elgarian certainly makes his case an even stronger one.
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 04, 2015, 03:38:24 PM
The Cahill 'Spirit of England' is very fine indeed! it was recently first hearing of the work. It's not easy to listen to because the music sounds sad, the orchestra and Cahill bring an intensity I can't deny.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 04:12:58 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 04, 2015, 03:38:24 PM
The Cahill 'Spirit of England' is very fine indeed! it was recently first hearing of the work. It's not easy to listen to because the music sounds sad, the orchestra and Cahill bring an intensity I can't deny.

+1
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 04, 2015, 06:10:32 PM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/04/7ad77948d96088d00df6ba7951801806.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/04/7fb335011abffbd070dc93d979c3af1f.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/04/61b284b58392a6d8286ee2a4b7b12664.jpg)

My Elgar listening today before my second shift job.

I like Solti's driven style with Elgar. The Scherzo of the 2nd Symphony is a great example.

By the way, I really like the Cocknaigne  Overture now, it's perfect for an Elgar fix at work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 06:14:10 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 04, 2015, 06:10:32 PM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/04/7ad77948d96088d00df6ba7951801806.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/04/7fb335011abffbd070dc93d979c3af1f.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/04/61b284b58392a6d8286ee2a4b7b12664.jpg)

My Elgar listening today before my second shift job.

I like Solti's driven style with Elgar. The Scherzo of the 2nd Symphony is a great example.

By the way, I really like the Cocknaigne  Overture now, it's perfect for an Elgar fix at work.

Excellent! I've come to appreciate Solti in Elgar now much more than I have in the past. He does have a spitfire approach to Elgar which can be refreshing to hear. I do not own that recording of Symphony No. 1 and Sea Pictures with Baker/Handley/LPO. How is it, Leo?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 06:23:10 PM
What does everyone think of Elgar's Violin Concerto in B minor, Op. 61? For me, it's one of the finest violin concerti in the concert repertoire. It's a longer concerto at about 47 minutes give or take, but I think it contains some of the most marvelous violin and orchestral music I've ever heard. This is one of those concerti that is symphonic in scope like say Shostakovich's Violin Concerto No. 1 for example. The orchestra has as much importance as the solo violin. This isn't a work that is easy to pull off as I have heard two performances that have achieved this feat and they are Kennedy/Handley and Little/A. Davis. Both of these performances take into account that this work is much more than a pyrotechnic display for the violin. There is a story or narrative happening here as Elgar weaves in and out of tender, reflective passages to rousing climaxes. It's certainly a concerto that took some time for me to appreciate, but, when I finally understood it, it seemed like another door had opened for me into Elgar's emotional and spiritual world.

How do you guys feel about it? Am I just talking rubbish as usual? :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 04, 2015, 06:26:49 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 06:14:10 PM
Excellent! I've come to appreciate Solti in Elgar now much more than I have in the past. He does have a spitfire approach to Elgar which can be refreshing to hear. I do not own that recording of Symphony No. 1 and Sea Pictures with Baker/Handley/LPO. How is it, Leo?
The Sea Pictures is gorgeous, it sounds bittersweet and all involved sound inspired. I haven't heard the 1st on this recording but will soon :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 06:37:01 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 04, 2015, 06:26:49 PM
The Sea Pictures is gorgeous, it sounds bittersweet and all involved sound inspired. I haven't heard the 1st on this recording but will soon :D

Cool, I'll check it out. I'm not completely onboard with Handley as an Elgarian, I think he's a bit better attuned to other Brits like RVW or Bax. But, I'm willing to give him another shot as I own his earlier performances of Elgar on EMI.

Edit: Leo, I just read a review on Amazon that stated that Baker was recorded a bit of a distance, is this true?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 04, 2015, 09:17:28 PM
Elgar: The Dream of Gerontius       Pears/Minton/Shirley-Quirk/The Choir of King's College, Cambridge/London SO/Britten

My first visit with Britten's rendition of TDOG. Great music making and very inspired. Somehow I enjoyed the orchestra and chorus more than the soloists. Did anybody else have that experience while listening to this specific performance? I am not sure if I like Pears' performance as Gerontius as I have become quite attuned to Nicolai Gedda's voice in that role.  Pears felt a bit overpowering and not as humble as Gedda's voice. I somehow expect Gerontius to combine inspiration with grace in unison with the tidal waves of the chorus and the orchestra. Regardless, it definitely deserves further listening sessions!   :)

[asin] B0000042DD[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 09:32:07 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 04, 2015, 09:17:28 PM
Elgar: The Dream of Gerontius       Pears/Minton/Shirley-Quirk/The Choir of King's College, Cambridge/London SO/Britten

My first visit with Britten's rendition of TDOG. Great music making and very inspired. Somehow I enjoyed the orchestra and chorus more than the soloists. Did anybody else have that experience while listening to this specific performance? I am not sure if I like Pears performance as Gerontius as I have become quite attuned to Nicolai Gedda's voice in that role.  Pears felt a bit overpowering and not as humble as Gedda's voice. I somehow expect Gerontius to combine inspiration with grace in unison with the tidal waves of the chorus and the orchestra. Regardless, it definitely deserves further listening sessions!   :)

[asin] B0000042DD[/asin]

Very nice, I'm not sure how I feel about Pears singing any of Elgar's music however but I realize that I'm clearly associating Pears with Britten and not wanting to accept the notion that Pears actually sung other composers' works as well. :) This said, wait until you hear Barbirolli and Elder.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 05, 2015, 12:06:51 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 06:23:10 PM
What does everyone think of Elgar's Violin Concerto in B minor, Op. 61? For me, it's one of the finest violin concerti in the concert repertoire. It's a longer concerto at about 47 minutes give or take, but I think it contains some of the most marvelous violin and orchestral music I've ever heard. This is one of those concerti that is symphonic in scope like say Shostakovich's Violin Concerto No. 1 for example. The orchestra has as much importance as the solo violin. This isn't a work that is easy to pull off as I have heard two performances that have achieved this feat and they are Kennedy/Handley and Little/A. Davis. Both of these performances take into account that this work is much more than a pyrotechnic display for the violin. There is a story or narrative happening here as Elgar weaves in and out of tender, reflective passages to rousing climaxes. It's certainly a concerto that took some time for me to appreciate, but, when I finally understood it, it seemed like another door had opened for me into Elgar's emotional and spiritual world.

Pretty much agree. Elgar's Violin Concerto is more important work for me than Elgar's Cello Concerto.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 05, 2015, 02:03:00 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 08:12:10 AM
As for your preference for Lott/Hickox in The Spirit of England that's certainly okay with me, I simply can't find much in that performance by the way of emotional depth.

Emotional depth perhaps means different things to us? I don't say I prefer Lott/Hickox. These two performances are about on the same level for me. After hearing Cahill/Gibson Lott/Hickox still sounds good.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 08:12:10 AMCahill may have such and such imperfections or the recording quality may not be as good as it could have been, but this remains an emotional listening experience for me for the simple reason that I feel that all involved with the work believed in the music and put their absolute heart into it. I'm not looking for a polished performance when I listen to Elgar or really any composer whose music means a lot to me, I'm looking for a commitment from the musicians. That's enough to make to take notice and, in turn, feel hopefully what they felt when performing the work.

I understand your point. As an audio engineer it's hard for me not to pay attention to such things as recording quality. The noise floor of Cahill/Gidson is unusually high for a 1976 recording. The noise of course doesn't make Cahill's commitment any less.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 08:12:10 AMI haven't heard the Piano Concerto yet, but I honestly don't have much interest in it since it was realized by someone else other than Elgar.

Mozart's Piano Concertos are not realized by Elgar either.   :D Thanks to Walker's efforts I can listen to Elgar's drafts/ideas for his Piano Concerto in the form of an enjoyable concerto.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 05, 2015, 03:31:08 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 08:24:28 AM
As for people not realizing how brilliant Elgar was, I think it's really just a matter of, like you said, 71 dB, people not wanting to understand the complexity of the musical language and not really digging enough into his oeuvre to find anything out for themselves.
We have a classical music culture that over-emphasizes certain composers and works while understating other composers and works. The history writing is skewed.

Elgar in my opinion is strongly understated composer outside UK, but his Cello Concerto is over-emphasized while his Violin Concerto is understated. Elgar's chamber works and oratorios (except maybe TDOG) are criminally understated.

Haydn is somewhat over-emphasized while Dittersdorf is understated. Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov are over-emphasized while S.I.Taneyev is understated. Schütz is over-emphasized compared to Weckmann. The list goes on...

...so people have preconceptions. In case of Elgar, these preconceptions are pretty misleading.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 08:24:28 AMI always knew there was something more to this composer than what his 'ceremonial' works otherwise tell us.
Ceremonial works don't tell much because they are very formal. Comparing Elgar's ceremonial works to similar works by other composers gives a hint of what the composer can do within certain frame of expression. Hearing Enigma Variations for the first time made me convinced that Elgar could do almost anything.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 08:24:28 AMWhen I first heard a work like the Cello Concerto or Sea Pictures, I was completely taken aback by how sophisticated of a composer he actually was and how his music contains so many musical avenues to explore. Just when you think you have a certain work figured out, he hits you from a completely different direction altogether that you weren't expecting at all.
I think Elgar's secret is the fact he was self-taught. He absorbed the best parts of many great composers and built his own style using these different "blocks". In Elgar's music we hear Mozartian melodies played with Handelian counterpoint, Berliozian orchestration and Lisztian poetism. Is it really a wonder the result sounds damn good? Naturally it takes an intelligent and very talented person to pull of such amalgam of styles.

Elgar's music has this quality that you can listen to it form different angles as you say. Maybe it's an implication of the amalgam-nature of the music?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: cilgwyn on January 05, 2015, 03:57:27 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 04, 2015, 06:10:32 PM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/04/7ad77948d96088d00df6ba7951801806.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/04/7fb335011abffbd070dc93d979c3af1f.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/04/61b284b58392a6d8286ee2a4b7b12664.jpg)

My Elgar listening today before my second shift job.

I like Solti's driven style with Elgar. The Scherzo of the 2nd Symphony is a great example.

By the way, I really like the Cocknaigne  Overture now, it's perfect for an Elgar fix at work.
I like his Elgar too. I got the Decca set recently. The Solti/Elgar symphonies were my introduction to this music via the local library (Lp's) all those years ago!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Klaatu on January 05, 2015, 08:11:01 AM
QuoteI think Elgar's secret is the fact he was self-taught. He absorbed the best parts of many great composers and built his own style using these different "blocks".

It's interesting that another self-taught English composer, Havergal Brian, was bowled over by a performance of Elgar's King Olaf at the North Staffordshire Triennial Festival, and wrote to E.E. to ask for advice on music tuition. Elgar replied:

"As regards tuition, I have had to get on without it, but I am afraid this will be cold comfort to you."

Brian, far from being disappointed with this reply, was absolutely electrified by it, because he hadn't realised that Elgar had had no formal musical education - and yet he had composed King Olaf!  Brian realised that he, too, could 'do his own thing' without formal tuition, and he too 'built his own style from different blocks'.

And there are so many passages in his works that bring Elgar to mind in their 'stately sorrow': undoubtedly the experience of hearing King Olaf never left him. The Elgar influence is perhaps heard most readily in the early tone poem In Memoriam (available on YouTube), but can still be heard in his 32nd (and last) symphony - the sorrowful Adagio movement always brings a lump to my throat; for me it's the swansong of the Elgarian Age from a composer who knew Elgar personally.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 08:15:58 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 05, 2015, 12:06:51 AM
Pretty much agree. Elgar's Violin Concerto is more important work for me than Elgar's Cello Concerto.

I wouldn't say that it's more important than the Cello Concerto on the account that this work deserves its status in the concert repertoire and it's a fine work whether you or anyone else agrees or not. It's true that the outpouring of emotion in this concerto is pretty much straightforward but this doesn't make any less of work because of this fact.

Quote from: 71 dB on January 05, 2015, 02:03:00 AM
Emotional depth perhaps means different things to us? I don't say I prefer Lott/Hickox. These two performances are about on the same level for me. After hearing Cahill/Gibson Lott/Hickox still sounds good.

I understand your point. As an audio engineer it's hard for me not to pay attention to such things as recording quality. The noise floor of Cahill/Gidson is unusually high for a 1976 recording. The noise of course doesn't make Cahill's commitment any less.

Mozart's Piano Concertos are not realized by Elgar either.   :D Thanks to Walker's efforts I can listen to Elgar's drafts/ideas for his Piano Concerto in the form of an enjoyable concerto.

Sure, emotion or the emotion that feel from work to work, composer to composer is different, but I completely disagree that the Lott/Hickox is on the same level as Cahill/Gibson. But, as with anything, it's about preferences and what we hear in the music.

I'm a bit of a stickler about recording quality as well but I can make exceptions if the audio isn't too bad and the performance is an outstanding one.

Quote from: 71 dB on January 05, 2015, 03:31:08 AM
We have a classical music culture that over-emphasizes certain composers and works while understating other composers and works. The history writing is skewed.

Elgar in my opinion is strongly understated composer outside UK, but his Cello Concerto is over-emphasized while his Violin Concerto is understated. Elgar's chamber works and oratorios (except maybe TDOG) are criminally understated.

Haydn is somewhat over-emphasized while Dittersdorf is understated. Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov are over-emphasized while S.I.Taneyev is understated. Schütz is over-emphasized compared to Weckmann. The list goes on...

...so people have preconceptions. In case of Elgar, these preconceptions are pretty misleading.
Ceremonial works don't tell much because they are very formal. Comparing Elgar's ceremonial works to similar works by other composers gives a hint of what the composer can do within certain frame of expression. Hearing Enigma Variations for the first time made me convinced that Elgar could do almost anything.

I think Elgar's secret is the fact he was self-taught. He absorbed the best parts of many great composers and built his own style using these different "blocks". In Elgar's music we hear Mozartian melodies played with Handelian counterpoint, Berliozian orchestration and Lisztian poetism. Is it really a wonder the result sounds damn good? Naturally it takes an intelligent and very talented person to pull of such amalgam of styles.

Elgar's music has this quality that you can listen to it form different angles as you say. Maybe it's an implication of the amalgam-nature of the music?

Elgar's sound-world is a unique one no question about it. There's so much to discover, that is, if a listener wants to dig deep enough. Ultimately, no one could convince me how great Elgar was as this was something I had to discover for myself and, needless to say, I did and I'm certainly thrilled each time I listen to his music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Elgar:
String Quartet op 83
In Moonlight
Piano Quintet op 84
Piers Lane/Vellinger String Quartet


A first exposure to these works. Lovely! The quartet caught my attention. It was strange as I kept listening to the first movement over and over (4 or 5 times). Somehow it shaped a question and a trigger sequence at about 5 minutes made me want to hear it over again. It (op 83) seemed warm, tranquil and sad while occasionally shaping disharmony.  I was less fond of the piano quintet although it grew on me as it progressed (in its melancholy). The Vellinger quartet (which I never heard of) were vibrant in their performance. I have to revisit the string quartet very soon.  :)
I have another version of these works with John Ogdon, Allegri Quartet, Music Group of London from the EMI set that I should visit for comparison. Anybody familiar with that rendition?
Still, it is the music that counts and Elgar surprised me again with these chamber works. Somehow I didn't expect to like them at all. Is this some type of Elgar stigma that prevails within the classical music realm?

[asin] B000089HB3[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 10:53:16 AM
Both the SQ and the Piano Quintet are great works, Moonfish. I also really enjoy the Violin Sonata.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 05, 2015, 11:35:01 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
I have another version of these works with John Ogdon, Allegri Quartet, Music Group of London from the EMI set that I should visit for comparison. Anybody familiar with that rendition?

I have those included in the 30 CD EMI set. I have to listen to them again (I keep forgetting fast how performances are). Maggini String Quartet/Peter Donohue on Naxos is solid good performance of these works. So is Goldner String Quartet/Piers Lane on Hyperion.

[asin]B0000014AF[/asin][asin]B005145X0M[/asin]

Quote from: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Still, it is the music that counts and Elgar surprised me again with these chamber works.  Somehow I didn't expect to like them at all.

Yes, these chamber works seems to surprise people. I'm glad you end up liking them.   ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 12:34:06 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 05, 2015, 11:35:01 AM
I have those included in the 30 CD EMI set. I have to listen to them again (I keep forgetting fast how performances are). Maggini String Quartet/Peter Donohue on Naxos is solid good performance of these works. So is Goldner String Quartet/Piers Lane on Hyperion.

[asin]B0000014AF[/asin][asin]B005145X0M[/asin]

Yes, these chamber works seems to surprise people. I'm glad you end up liking them.   ;)

Thanks for those recommendations 71dB! They seem worthwhile to explore considering the pleasant performances by the Vellinger Quartet. It is true that it is hard to keep multiple performances of a work in one's mind. I guess the impression lingers, while that actual work dominates. The minor ups and downs of a given performance are a hard fit into my own crammed neural memory bank.  :D
I think I will find myself a copy of the Naxos recording!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: cilgwyn on January 05, 2015, 01:38:04 PM
I really enjoyed that Hyperion cd. Wonderful music! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 05, 2015, 02:03:58 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 04, 2015, 06:10:32 PM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/04/7ad77948d96088d00df6ba7951801806.jpg)

I like Solti's driven style with Elgar. The Scherzo of the 2nd Symphony is a great example.

Yes, Solti's "driven style" in the scherzo derives from Elgar's interpretation in his own recording with the LSO, made in 1927.  Here's Elgar himself, conducting--and caught speaking to the orchestra--while recording the movement:

https://www.youtube.com/v/0NTuYIClrfk

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 02:08:40 PM
Quote from: jfdrex on January 05, 2015, 02:03:58 PM
Yes, Solti's "driven style" in the scherzo derives from Elgar's interpretation in his own recording with the LSO, made in 1927.  Here's Elgar himself, conducting--and caught speaking to the orchestra--while recording the movement:

https://www.youtube.com/v/0NTuYIClrfk

Wow, that's amazing. I don't think I've ever heard Elgar speak before. Very cool, thanks for sharing this, jfdrex. 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 05, 2015, 02:35:41 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Elgar:
String Quartet op 83
In Moonlight
Piano Quintet op 84
Piers Lane/Vellinger String Quartet


A first exposure to these works. Lovely! The quartet caught my attention. It was strange as I kept listening to the first movement over and over (4 or 5 times). Somehow it shaped a question and a trigger sequence at about 5 minutes made me want to hear it over again. It (op 83) seemed warm, tranquil and sad while occasionally shaping disharmony.  I was less fond of the piano quintet although it grew on me as it progressed (in its melancholy). The Vellinger quartet (which I never heard of) were vibrant in their performance. I have to revisit the string quartet very soon.  :)
I have another version of these works with John Ogdon, Allegri Quartet, Music Group of London from the EMI set that I should visit for comparison. Anybody familiar with that rendition?
Still, it is the music that counts and Elgar surprised me again with these chamber works. Somehow I didn't expect to like them at all. Is this some type of Elgar stigma that prevails within the classical music realm?

[asin] B000089HB3[/asin]

Yes, I agree completely about Elgar's three late chamber works (opp. 82, 83, & 84), though I've not heard the Vellinger recording.  The second movement of the string quartet arguably contains the most sweetly melancholic music Elgar ever composed--and that's saying something!

I have the Ogdon recording on LP, but haven't listened to it in ages, so I'm afraid I can't give you an opinion.  But I can't recommend these two CDs highly enough:

[asin]B000009KLD[/asin]

[asin]B000003X96[/asin]

The first of those two discs (with the Violin Sonata) is unique, as it includes what is essentially a radio play (written by Michael Kennedy, who died on New Year's Eve) called "Wood Magic."  Per the liner notes:

"Wood Magic is an account, told as far a possible in Elgar's own words, or those of his friends and contemporaries, of how he came to write the four masterpieces with which his composing life virtually closed in 1918-19."  The words are spoken by Richard Pascoe and Barbara Leigh-Hunt, and excerpts from various of Elgar's compositions are worked into the play.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 05, 2015, 03:10:08 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 02:08:40 PM
Wow, that's amazing. I don't think I've ever heard Elgar speak before. Very cool, thanks for sharing this, jfdrex. 8)

You're very welcome!

That segment is included in volume 1 of "The Elgar Edition" (Elgar's recordings of his own works):

[asin]B00000DNRE[/asin]

And in this complete 9-disc omnibus set:

[asin]B004MSRDK6[/asin]

The liner notes include descriptions of the recording sessions, and also recount what Elgar says in that segment.

Elgar can also be heard speaking in this brief film, made during the official opening of the Abbey Road Studios on 12 November 1931.  I must confess that this gives me goose bumps, and a lump in my throat:

https://www.youtube.com/v/iDgv5mjR1HE

"Please play this tune as though you've never heard it before."
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 05, 2015, 03:39:20 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 06:23:10 PM
What does everyone think of Elgar's Violin Concerto in B minor, Op. 61? For me, it's one of the finest violin concerti in the concert repertoire. It's a longer concerto at about 47 minutes give or take, but I think it contains some of the most marvelous violin and orchestral music I've ever heard. This is one of those concerti that is symphonic in scope like say Shostakovich's Violin Concerto No. 1 for example. The orchestra has as much importance as the solo violin. This isn't a work that is easy to pull off as I have heard two performances that have achieved this feat and they are Kennedy/Handley and Little/A. Davis. Both of these performances take into account that this work is much more than a pyrotechnic display for the violin. There is a story or narrative happening here as Elgar weaves in and out of tender, reflective passages to rousing climaxes. It's certainly a concerto that took some time for me to appreciate, but, when I finally understood it, it seemed like another door had opened for me into Elgar's emotional and spiritual world.

How do you guys feel about it? Am I just talking rubbish as usual? :)

Nope, you're not talking rubbish at all.  Or if you are, then I am too. :laugh:

Paradoxically, it's at once the most expansive of Elgar's orchestral works and the most intimate.  Or so I feel.

I've got more than a dozen recordings of the work, and love them all, bar one.  For the life of me, I've never seen (or heard) what everyone seems to see (and hear) in the Kennedy/Handley recording. ???  Yes, I know it's supposed to be a beloved classic, etc etc etc, but for me it's dull dull dull.  Yes, I know it's sacrilege to say so--and I'll probably be called a philistine--but I'll take Heifetz and Perlman over Kennedy and Kennedy any day. :D

And Campoli over them.

https://www.youtube.com/v/iRmus_sFvC0

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 05:39:56 PM
Quote from: jfdrex on January 05, 2015, 03:39:20 PM
Nope, you're not talking rubbish at all.  Or if you are, then I am too. :laugh:

Paradoxically, it's at once the most expansive of Elgar's orchestral works and the most intimate.  Or so I feel.

I've got more than a dozen recordings of the work, and love them all, bar one.  For the life of me, I've never seen (or heard) what everyone seems to see (and hear) in the Kennedy/Handley recording. ???  Yes, I know it's supposed to be a beloved classic, etc etc etc, but for me it's dull dull dull.  Yes, I know it's sacrilege to say so--and I'll probably be called a philistine--but I'll take Heifetz and Perlman over Kennedy and Kennedy any day. :D

And Campoli over them.

https://www.youtube.com/v/iRmus_sFvC0

Thanks for the feedback. No, do not worry about not liking this performance or that performance, we're all wired differently and respond to music and particular performances in our own way. If pressed, I would say the Little/A. Davis is my absolute favorite performance. Nothing dull about this performance at all. Have you heard it? I can't say I've heard Perlman's performance but I'm definitely not a fan of his playing at all. Recently, I bought the Kyoko Takezawa/C. Davis performance of this concerto, have you heard this one per chance? I've heard nothing but good things about it. One performance that I'm really anxious in hearing is Kyung Wha Chung/Solti on Decca.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kishnevi on January 05, 2015, 05:44:39 PM
Perhaps a reminder for those who do not have it
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oiS5FA5hL.jpg)
Current Amazon MP price (US) is ~$45 plus shipping.
My only negative feeling about this set relates to the sonics of the oratorios.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 05:55:00 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 05, 2015, 05:44:39 PM
Perhaps a reminder for those who do not have it
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oiS5FA5hL.jpg)
Current Amazon MP price (US) is ~$45 plus shipping.
My only negative feeling about this set relates to the sonics of the oratorios.

It's certainly a nice looking set, but I can let it go as I own probably 98% of that box set already. What would be nice for people interested in Elder's Elgar series is if they would make a box set out of it. For me, with the exception of the performances of the concerti, it's one of the best Elgar series in many, many years. Elder has proven himself as a natural Elgarian, it's too bad I can't say the same for his RVW performances, which have been quite lackluster or at least to my ears they have, but, in Elgar, Elder belongs in the same company as Barbirolli, C. & A. Davis, etc.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 06:02:37 PM
I didn't know we could make file attachments now! Here are some out-of-the-norm photos I found of Elgar while searching images on the net:





Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 06:52:31 PM
I have had a lot of fun diving into Boult's renditions (I know, I know - not everybody likes his performances, but I do... :))
Another inexpensive way to get a lot of Elgar exposure!

[asin] B00C68FJ0K[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 07:38:43 PM
This set would also be a great way to get acquainted with Elgar's music, the Barbirolli route which, six years ago, is where I became bitten by the Elgar bug for the first time:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81Sx-LuxyFL._SL1417_.jpg)

This set, although not in this newer reissue, is where I cut my teeth on Elgar. Barbirolli may be, at least for me, the greatest Elgarian. His tempi can be a little bit on the slower side in some passages here and there, but the emotional drama and tension he brings to this music really felt right to my ears, especially after hearing Boult's performances (sorry, Moonfish -- I had to to say it). Barbirolli dusted off the cobwebs left from Boult's performances and brought the composer into a completely new light. He wasn't afraid to get raucous with the music. Also, how can my fellow Elgarians forget his accompaniment to du Pre (Cello Concerto) and Baker (Sea Pictures)? Quite simply legendary.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 07:42:18 PM
To not completely dump on Boult, I will say these are the best Elgar performances from him I've heard:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81xf0R2AaOS._SL1450_.jpg)

Moonfish, if you haven't heard these recordings yet, then, run, don't walk over to Amazon and click buy now! It doesn't get much better than this as far as Boult is concerned.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 09:32:51 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 07:42:18 PM
To not completely dump on Boult, I will say these are the best Elgar performances from him I've heard:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81xf0R2AaOS._SL1450_.jpg)

Moonfish, if you haven't heard these recordings yet, then, run, don't walk over to Amazon and click buy now! It doesn't get much better than this as far as Boult is concerned.

Hmm, the EMI Boult box has two sets of the symphonies: Symphony No 1 (1976 LPO & 1949 LPO) and Symphony No 2 (1975/76 LPO & 1944 BBC SO). Alas, no 1968 recording...
Tempting indeed!!!!  :P   So the Lyrita recordings appear to have a special status in the Elgar realm?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 09:38:09 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 09:32:51 PM
Hmm, the EMI Boult box has two sets of the symphonies: Symphony No 1 (1976 LPO & 1949 LPO) and Symphony No 2 (1975/76 LPO & 1944 BBC SO). Alas, no 1968 recording...
Tempting indeed!!!!  :P   So the Lyrita recordings appear to have a special status in the Elgar realm?

I would say yes to the 'special status' of these Boult Lyrita recordings. In fact, this set was recommended to me by someone, perhaps on another forum, who was a dedicated Elgarian and quite possibly had every recording ever made of his music or at least it appeared that way. :) I think these Boult performances are a must for all Elgar fans. That's how confident I am in the authenticity of these recordings and the stunning way Boult handled these symphonies. A must-buy most certainly. Again, like I said of the Elder recordings, you'll thank me later. ;) Oh, and if you haven't heard Barbirolli's performances of Elgar, I must ask: what in the world are you waiting on? ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 09:42:02 PM
Elgar: Symphony No 1        BBC SO/A Davis

from
(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/64/99/0825646219964_600.jpg)

Revisited the first symphony in a great performance by A Davis'/BBC SO.   Symphony No 1 was my first gateway into Elgar (well, I guess we all hear P&C first). As I mentioned in a previous post I now prefer #2 for different reasons. No 1 has such a unique charm though - the theme just keeps rolling on sucking in one's psyche in its melancholic turmoil. One thing I find interesting (which is true for many pieces) is how the symphony changes the more often one listens to it. To me it has started to connect with my own journey through life experiences. I know it may sound a bit strange, but there is something about the piece that is just beyond the corner, hiding within the themes, that keeps bringing continuous allure to the symphony. It brings me back to listen to it yet once more.....

On a different note: I had to laugh.  When the symphony started my 11 year old son yelled out: Elgar!   ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 09:45:18 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 09:38:09 PM
I would say yes to the 'special status' of these Boult Lyrita recordings. In fact, this set was recommended to me by someone, perhaps on another forum, who was a dedicated Elgarian and quite possibly had every recording ever made of his music or at least it appeared that way. :) I think these Boult performances are a must for all Elgar fans. That's how confident I am in the authenticity of these recordings and the stunning way Boult handled these symphonies. A must-buy most certainly. Again, like I said of the Elder recordings, you'll thank me later. ;) Oh, and if you haven't heard Barbirolli's performances of Elgar, I must ask: what in the world are you waiting on? ;D

The Lyrita discs are now on my "list"!  Thanks for the recommendation, MI, as I was unaware about the 1968 recordings.
Barbirolli is around the corner. I am trying to find my elusive EMI box!  :'( :'( :'(      It found a special place to hide before I embarked on my Elgar journey!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 09:50:00 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 09:42:02 PM
Elgar: Symphony No 1        BBC SO/A Davis

from
(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/64/99/0825646219964_600.jpg)

Revisited the first symphony in a great performance by A Davis'/BBC SO.   Symphony No 1 was my first gateway into Elgar (well, I guess we all hear P&C first). As I mentioned in a previous post I now prefer #2 for different reasons. No 1 has such a unique charm though - the theme just keeps rolling on sucking in one's psyche in its melancholic turmoil. One thing I find interesting (which is true for many pieces) is how the symphony changes the more often one listens to it. To me it has started to connect with my own journey through life experiences. I know it may sound a bit strange, but there is something about the piece that is just beyond the corner, hiding within the themes, that keeps bringing continuous allure to the symphony. It brings me back to listen to it yet once more.....

On a different note: I had to laugh.  When the symphony started my 11 year old son yelled out: Elgar!   ;D

It was a part of my 'gateway' as well, Moonfish. It's still a favorite of mine and, you're right, there's something about this symphony that just gets better and better each time I listen to it. There's no question that Elgar put his heart into the music and thought long and hard about what he wanted to say that will add something to an already glorious symphonic canon. I think he achieved his goal without question. It seems like when it came time for him to want to compose his Symphony No. 2 his whole musical universe had changed. The melancholic nature of his music really rears its head in both symphonies, but the 2nd, for me, is frightening to the point that it feels so autobiographical, especially in that Larghetto movement. But Symphony No. 1 has it's own narrative that I find completely palpable and satisfying. Both works are masterstrokes from his pen.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 09:50:21 PM
Quote from: jfdrex on January 05, 2015, 03:10:08 PM

Elgar can also be heard speaking in this brief film, made during the official opening of the Abbey Road Studios on 12 November 1931.  I must confess that this gives me goose bumps, and a lump in my throat:

https://www.youtube.com/v/iDgv5mjR1HE

"Please play this tune as though you've never heard it before."

Thanks for all your recent posts jdfrex! Great resources and the clip of Elgar conducting was indeed a delight.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 09:55:34 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 09:45:18 PM
The Lyrita discs are now on my "list"!  Thanks for the recommendation, MI, as I was unaware about the 1968 recordings.
Barbirolli is around the corner. I am trying to find my elusive EMI box!  :'( :'( :'(      It found a special place to hide before I embarked on my Elgar journey!

You're welcome, Moonfish. :) Please continue to keep us all up-to-date on your Elgar journey.

P.S. That was a funny remark you about your kid saying "Elgar!" as you were playing the Davis Warner recording of the first symphony. Funny stuff. That sounds like me and my dad actually. I was playing some Janacek Sinfonietta one day and he came in my room and said "Got to love Mr. Janacek. Did that man ever compose anything I didn't like?" FYI, Janacek is one of my dad's favorites along with Mahler, Dvorak, Liszt, and Brahms.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 10:00:37 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 09:55:34 PM
You're welcome, Moonfish. :) Please continue to keep us all up-to-date on your Elgar journey.

P.S. That was a funny remark you about your kid saying "Elgar!" as you were playing the Davis Warner recording of the first symphony. Funny stuff. That sounds like me and my dad actually. I was playing some Janacek Sinfonietta one day and he came in my room and said "Got to love Mr. Janacek. Did that man ever compose anything I didn't like?" FYI, Janacek is one of my dad's favorites along with Mahler, Dvorak, Liszt, and Brahms.

Yes, I guess continuous exposure brings recognition. I always mention the composer and the piece. My son perks up his ears while my daughter forgets it. We also play this game when they have to guess the composer and they each have three guesses. It is a blast. I guess they are getting more familiar with Elgar.  They certainly had a fair amount of exposure to TDoG by now!   >:D    Pure bliss! I know, I am biased towards TDoG.....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 10:06:29 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 09:50:00 PM
It was a part of my 'gateway' as well, Moonfish. It's still a favorite of mine and, you're right, there's something about this symphony that just gets better and better each time I listen to it. There's no question that Elgar put his heart into the music and thought long and hard about what he wanted to say that will add something to an already glorious symphonic canon. I think he achieved his goal without question. It seems like when it came time for him to want to compose his Symphony No. 2 his whole musical universe had changed. The melancholic nature of his music really rears its head in both symphonies, but the 2nd, for me, is frightening to the point that it feels so autobiographical, especially in that Larghetto movement. But Symphony No. 1 has it's own narrative that I find completely palpable and satisfying. Both works are masterstrokes from his pen.

Interesting thoughts MI! You are right - No 1 and No 2 are indeed very different creatures. I agree with your own observation of melancholy. It seems like (so far in my listening) that melancholy and longing clearly are recurrent themes in Elgar's music? In the symphonies, the chamber works, the choral pieces (TDoG, Music Makers, Kingdom)..     Perhaps it is my own imagination and things that I personally "see" in the music since they resonate with my own melancholy. Who knows?  Perhaps I will think about it differently as I listen further?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 10:25:55 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 10:00:37 PM
Yes, I guess continuous exposure brings recognition. I always mention the composer and the piece. My son perks up his ears while my daughter forgets it. We also play this game when they have to guess the composer and they each have three guesses. It is a blast. I guess they are getting more familiar with Elgar.  They certainly had a fair amount of exposure to TDoG by now!   >:D    Pure bliss! I know, I am biased towards TDoG.....

That sounds like a fun game. I'd like to play it, too! ;) ;D It's good that you're exposing your kids to this great music. Perhaps, one day, they'll appreciate it as much as we all do here.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2015, 10:30:58 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 10:06:29 PM
Interesting thoughts MI! You are right - No 1 and No 2 are indeed very different creatures. I agree with your own observation of melancholy. It seems like (so far in my listening) that melancholy and longing clearly are recurrent themes in Elgar's music? In the symphonies, the chamber works, the choral pieces (TDoG, Music Makers, Kingdom)..     Perhaps it is my own imagination and things that I personally "see" in the music since they resonate with my own melancholy. Who knows?  Perhaps I will think about it differently as I listen further?

You're certainly right about pointing out that these nostalgic, melancholic narrative themes run throughout almost all of his oeuvre with the exception of the more ceremonial type of works like Pomp & Circumstance Marches and Polonia for example, but we all know the intention behind these works and why they were important in getting Elgar more recognition. I mean even Ravel disliked his Bolero, but I'm sure he didn't dislike the money the work brought him. ;) Anyway, so, yes, these haunting, lyrical themes seem to permeate Elgar's serious music and this is certainly a part of their allure for me as I'm sure everyone on this thread so far is on a similar page.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2015, 01:42:27 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 05, 2015, 06:52:31 PM
I have had a lot of fun diving into Boult's renditions (I know, I know - not everybody likes his performances, but I do... :))
Another inexpensive way to get a lot of Elgar exposure!

[asin] B00C68FJ0K[/asin]

I think Boult is brilliant with Op. 49 & Op. 51. If I have understood correctly, some people find Boult restrained, but I don't think that's a bad thing with Elgar, whose music itself is so powerful and expressive.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 06, 2015, 06:49:51 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2015, 01:42:27 AM
I think Boult is brilliant with Op. 49 & Op. 51. If I have understood correctly, some people find Boult restrained, but I don't think that's a bad thing with Elgar, whose music itself is so powerful and expressive.
You favor Boult in the choral works overall, 71dB?  I suspect that most people encounter either Boult or Barbirolli, which then becomes a base line for comparison. I feel like I am mostly focused in absorbing the music at this point with repeated listening. Elgar's music certainly deserves the hours I put in. A beautiful aural landscape to wander through...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 06, 2015, 07:29:32 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 06, 2015, 06:49:51 AM
You favor Boult in the choral works overall, 71dB?
There is less competition in the choral works than in the symphonies. Comparing Elder's and Boult's Op. 49 makes Elder sound somehow "pale" and thin. I don't what it is but Boult makes the music "larger". I need to listen to Elder more, but I was a bit underwhelmed when I heared it. It's not that Elder is bad, not at all. It's just that Boult seems to nail these large choral works by Elgar, more than he does with the symphonies.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2015, 08:10:05 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2015, 07:29:32 AM
There is less competition in the choral works than in the symphonies. Comparing Elder's and Boult's Op. 49 makes Elder sound somehow "pale" and thin. I don't what it is but Boult makes the music "larger". I need to listen to Elder more, but I was a bit underwhelmed when I heared it. It's not that Elder is bad, not at all. It's just that Boult seems to nail these large choral works by Elgar, more than he does with the symphonies.

I'd take Elder any day of the week over Boult. Elder's recordings of the three oratorios: The Dream of Gerontius, The Apostles, and The Kingdom are magnificent!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 06, 2015, 12:15:17 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 03, 2015, 01:12:23 PM
The Spirit of England and King Olaf are so different kind of works that I wouldn't compare them, but King Olaf and Caractacus can be compared with ease and of course Caractacus is better of these two. That said, King Olaf has it's charm to us Elgarians as you said.  ;)

Just to clarify (though it's a minor point): I wasn't comparing the works themselves, but their stature. My point about The Spirit of England is that despite being one of Elgar's greatest works, it's been incomprehensibly neglected for a long time (until recently). I was observing that I doubt if King Olaf, which also is a much neglected work, is likely prove a comparable perception-shifting revelation to many listeners who discover it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 06, 2015, 12:43:37 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2015, 06:23:10 PM
What does everyone think of Elgar's Violin Concerto in B minor, Op. 61? For me, it's one of the finest violin concerti in the concert repertoire. It's a longer concerto at about 47 minutes give or take, but I think it contains some of the most marvelous violin and orchestral music I've ever heard. This is one of those concerti that is symphonic in scope like say Shostakovich's Violin Concerto No. 1 for example. The orchestra has as much importance as the solo violin. This isn't a work that is easy to pull off as I have heard two performances that have achieved this feat and they are Kennedy/Handley and Little/A. Davis. Both of these performances take into account that this work is much more than a pyrotechnic display for the violin. There is a story or narrative happening here as Elgar weaves in and out of tender, reflective passages to rousing climaxes. It's certainly a concerto that took some time for me to appreciate, but, when I finally understood it, it seemed like another door had opened for me into Elgar's emotional and spiritual world.

How do you guys feel about it? Am I just talking rubbish as usual? :)

We had some splendidly intense discussions about the violin concerto in this thread about 4 years ago. You're right that it can take a while to 'sink in' - for me it was perhaps ten years before the penny fully dropped. I do not think that any other piece of music (I speak purely personally here) has ever so much rewarded the study of the background to the composition of it. Looking back to April 2010, I found one of my attempts to explain just why I find it so powerfully affecting, and I doubt I could improve on it now, so I'll resurrect it:

Elgar's violin concerto has haunted me for most of my post-adolescent life, and it took me many years to get to grips with it. I think it's true to say that a little knowledge of certain aspects of Elgar's life makes it more accessible, more poignant, though I wouldn't suggest it was actually necessary. Some may think it's too long, at 45-50 minutes, but the extra length is due almost entirely to the extraordinary cadenza with which he closes the work.

Someone once remarked that one of the signs of Shakespeare's greatness was his ability to 'connect public and private' worlds so successfully, and I think it's possible to say the same thing about much of Elgar's greatest music - most particularly the violin concerto, where there's a whole spectrum of musical discourse ranging from the public, at one end (Elgar's 'nobilmente' is one aspect of it) to the intensely, intimately private (such as the second windflower theme), at the other. One way (I don't say the only way) of looking at the entire concerto might be as an exploration of this connection between the public and the private. There's the face of Elgar the public man - the one that he presents to the world; the one that stands for his country and his time. And there is the inner heart of Elgar; the insecure, deeply troubled, aching, longing individual mind. Because we all have our own equivalents of these components, the violin concerto has the capability of tearing us to pieces once we tune in properly to it.

The key to the heart of the first movement is the recognition of the two 'Windflower' themes (see my avatar). That these themes, different in character but both deeply feminine, had some symbolic significance for Elgar is unquestionable; trying to discover what it is, is another matter. Perhaps it can't be expressed in words. Elgar wrote on the score: 'Herein is enshrined the soul of .....' but he didn't tell us who '.....' is. Lady Alice Stuart Wortley, Elgar's soulmate and muse for many years, is often proposed as the most likely candidates for the 'soul' - Elgar's nickname for her was 'Windflower' - but I don't believe it's so simple. A heart-rending drama is played out, again and again, between the two 'Windflower' themes, initially in the first movement, and later, most devastatingly, in the extraordinary 10-minute cadenza in the final movement. The second movement is exquisitely beautiful, and would alone make the piece a favourite for me, but the reason why I go back to this concerto, time and time again, is this great drama of the two 'windflower' themes.

Whoever or whatever is the 'soul' enshrined here, nowhere is it enshrined more mysteriously than in the cadenza. About 9 minutes into the last movement, Elgar starts to wind things up. We sense that the finale is coming; we get ready for the end. But no. The release we're expecting doesn't happen. The momentum fades. Unexpectedly from the strings there comes the thrumming sound of something like wind - wind in trees, perhaps, or aeolian harps. It's a strange, haunting sound, and against this background the cadenza (it's an accompanied cadenza) begins. For the next 10 minutes or so the violin takes up again the 'windflower' themes that were such a key factor in the first movement, and explores them as if they represent something remembered that's exquisitely painful, yet loved beyond measure. Elgar has some unfinished business to resolve.

In the cadenza the two windflower themes seem to repeatedly lose each other, then find each other (fleetingly), then lose each other again. There are times when the music falters and almost dies, as if all momentum, all reason for continuing, has been lost - as if no resolution is possible. Elgar seems to strip his soul bare in this cadenza, and yet, finally, some kind of reconciliation is achieved. The darkly beautiful struggle is brought to an end; the window on Elgar's soul is closed, within just a few bars; and we're left once more with the public, optimistic face, with a curious feeling of uneasy acceptance of the insecurities to which we've just been made privy. And the concerto comes to an end in a brisk surge of something like optimism.

The power of it lies in the fact that it somehow seems to tap into something archetypal; something deeper than the mere fact that Elgar was in love with anyone in particular. Elgar is exposing normally hidden aspects of his longing for the feminine, expressed through his love-but-not-quite-love for Alice Stuart-Wortley. If you were to put a gun to my head and demand an explanation, I'd say I think the music conveys a kind of celebration of the feminine, as a healing essence, tempered by an awareness of its destructive, painful aspect. Because of the archetypal character of the struggle, we can all find aspects of ourselves in there: the tension between the need to perform publicly in the world, in the face of private turmoil, for instance; or the circular paradox of our perceptions of the feminine aspect as lover and mother (Persephone and Demeter).


Anyone who wants to dig deeper might like to go back to where that discussion began, which I think is about here:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg409130.html#msg409130 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg409130.html#msg409130)

but then it goes on for many pages in which we thrashed out the merits of the various available performances, as well as the more general discussion of the concerto itself. I remember it as huge fun!

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 06, 2015, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 26, 2010, 12:42:48 PM
If it were The Elgar Interpreters' last stand, and the arrows were flying thick and fast, it would be Boult and Barbirolli that I would hope were the last two standing.

Such a wonderful metaphor, Elgarian
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2015, 01:31:52 PM
Thanks for that post, Elgarian. A great read.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 06, 2015, 04:22:42 PM
Elgarian, thank you for sharing those thoughts.  Especially meaningful to me in light of my own long, personal obsession with this concerto.

I hadn't come across the earlier thread you refer to, so I thank you for linking to that as well.

As it happens, I've just today discovered a performance I hadn't known anything about:   Violinist Aldo Ferraresi (1902-1978), a pupil of Ysaye, with the RAI Orchestra, Milan, conducted by Pietro Argento.  From a concert of March 22, 1966:

https://www.youtube.com/v/gxVuCoyaIwE

https://www.youtube.com/v/kFeIxHQ5CIY
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2015, 04:24:25 PM
Hey, jfdrex, have you heard the Little/A. Davis recording of the Violin Concerto yet? Definitely check it out if you haven't done so already.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 06, 2015, 04:39:16 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 06, 2015, 04:24:25 PM
Hey, jfdrex, have you heard the Little/A. Davis recording of the Violin Concerto yet? Definitely check it out if you haven't done so already.

Yes, MI, I've got that one. :)  Also the Takezawa/C. Davis and Kyung Wha Chung/Solti recordings that you mentioned yesterday.  (I almost missed your question to me about those yesterday--this thread is moving along at a pretty brisk clip.)  In fact, I think the Takezawa will be the next one I listen to--I bought it some years ago and played it a lot back then, but not lately.

I heard Tasmin Little play it in concert at the RFH about ten years ago, with Hickox conducting the LSO.  Marvelous!.  I also heard Midori play it with Zubin Mehta and the NY Phil at Avery Fisher Hall--a performance that, alas, left much to be desired.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2015, 04:50:49 PM
Quote from: jfdrex on January 06, 2015, 04:39:16 PM
Yes, MI, I've got that one. :)  Also the Takezawa/C. Davis and Kyung Wha Chung/Solti recordings that you mentioned yesterday.  (I almost missed your question to me about those yesterday--this thread is moving along at a pretty brisk clip.)  In fact, I think the Takezawa will be the next one I listen to--I bought it some years ago and played it a lot back then, but not lately.

I heard Tasmin Little play it in concert at the RFH about ten years ago, with Hickox conducting the LSO.  Marvelous!.  I also heard Midori play it with Zubin Mehta and the NY Phil at Avery Fisher Hall--a performance that, alas, left much to be desired.

Yes, this thread is moving along quite nicely. :) I'm excited about the influx of enthusiasm for Elgar's music. Please let me know your thoughts on the Takezawa/C. Davis performance. Also, what do you think of Chung/Solti? How would you rate that performance?

By the way, you can call me, John. What is your name?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 06, 2015, 06:19:41 PM
Tonight's Elgar quota:

Elgar: The Dream of Gerontius     Nash/Ripley/Noble/Walker/Huddersfield Choral Society/Liverpool PO/Sargent

The very first recording of TDoG from April 1945.  I am getting a bit addicted to this work by now....   ;)
It is my second listen to this specific Sargent recording and I definitely prefer it to his later one. Nash's voice is wonderful as Gerontius and the performance moves forward with urgency and passion. The war was not yet over in Europe and perhaps some of the spirit of the sorrow and pain of the war effort moved into the performance?  Not in the top tier, but definitely worthwhile. The sound has a little bit lack of resolution, but it is fantastic for being a 1945 recording (really!).

[asin] B000003XKH[/asin]

Walter Essex wrote a great comparative review of TDoG... (http://www.elgar.org/3gerontr.htm)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2015, 06:38:59 PM
My recording of the week or do I mean every week:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81%2BQM3ZzwGL._SL1417_.jpg)

Classical listeners who are just getting into Elgar will find that there are many recordings to choose from, but, in my estimate, this Barbirolli disc remains one of the best possible introductions a new listener to Elgar's music can find. One of the selling points for this recording is that both "Sea Pictures" and the "Cello Concerto" display two completely sides to the composer, which will help the listener grasp Elgar's unique sound-world with greater ease than simply trying to plow their way through the two symphonies, which, to someone new to Elgar, can be quite daunting.

The "Cello Concerto" is a highly emotional work, but at it's core it's lyrical and filled with much beauty that it shouldn't be a problem for the listener to understand. The cello playing of Jacqueline du Pre, as noted by every review I've read of this recording, is exemplary. In fact, I read a story where world-renown cellist Mstislav Rostropovich said after he heard du Pre's performance, he immediately took it out of his repertoire. This is du Pre's second performance of the Elgar and, in my opinion, the finer of the two. I never liked Barenboim's conducting that much and feel he's out-of-place in Elgar's music. Barbirolli, on the other hand, is in-tune with Elgar and the emotional range this work needs to be successful in a performance. Barbirolli is no stranger to Elgar, in fact, he has recorded almost all of the orchestral works for EMI ([[ASIN:B004MSRD4C British Composers: Sir John Barbirolli Conducts Elgar]]). Anyway, this is the best "Cello Concerto" performance I've heard and while other performances that have come to fore lately (i. e. Heinrich Schiff/Elder, Watkins/A. Davis) demonstrate admirable virtuosity, they still don't erase my mind of du Pre's performance.

The other main work here is "Sea Pictures" the only song-cycle Elgar wrote and it has this hazy, Impressionistic feel throughout. Critics and listeners continue to talk about Janet Baker's performance and it's hard to disagree with their continued praise. This is the best performance of "Sea Pictures" on record. There have been many other good ones (Greevy/Handley, Connolly/Wright, Palmer/Hickox), but no other vocalist has touched Baker yet. It also helps when you have sympathetic accompaniment from Barbirolli and the London Symphony Orchestra. I never heard "Where Corals Lie" have so much weight. The depth of feeling throughout the work is gorgeous and will leave you wanting more.

There are many ways to obtain this recording. It's been reissued many, many times, but probably one of the best ways to acquire it is through Barbirolli's box set which I linked above. He was master in this music and in many respects all of his performances remain unchallenged.

Highly recommended.

[My own review taken from Amazon]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2015, 07:34:06 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 06, 2015, 06:19:41 PM
Tonight's Elgar quota:

Elgar: The Dream of Gerontius     Nash/Ripley/Noble/Walker/Huddersfield Choral Society/Liverpool PO/Sargent

The very first recording of TDoG from April 1945.  I am getting a bit addicted to this work by now....   ;)
It is my second listen to this specific Sargent recording and I definitely prefer it to his later one. Nash's voice is wonderful as Gerontius and the performance moves forward with urgency and passion. The war was not yet over in Europe and perhaps some of the spirit of the sorrow and pain of the war effort moved into the performance?  Not in the top tier, but definitely worthwhile. The sound has a little bit lack of resolution, but it is fantastic for being a 1945 recording (really!).

[asin] B000003XKH[/asin]

Walter Essex wrote a great comparative review of TDoG... (http://www.elgar.org/3gerontr.htm)

Very cool, Moonfish. I'm not really into mono recordings, but it's good to see these historical recordings made available to the public. You seem to be really enamored with The Dream of Gerontius. I'm going to have to give this work a listen tomorrow. It took me a little bit of time to appreciate Gerontius but I really enjoy it now. Do you enjoy The Kingdom and The Apostles equally or have these yet to take ahold of you?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 06, 2015, 10:09:22 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 06, 2015, 07:34:06 PM
Very cool, Moonfish. I'm not really into mono recordings, but it's good to see these historical recordings made available to the public. You seem to be really enamored with The Dream of Gerontius. I'm going to have to give this work a listen tomorrow. It took me a little bit of time to appreciate Gerontius but I really enjoy it now. Do you enjoy The Kingdom and The Apostles equally or have these yet to take ahold of you?

True! I use my "mono-ears" with the historical recordings and they are quite forgiving. Sometimes I am awed by our ability to listen to these snapshots of time and space at our leisure. You have to give the mono recordings a chance MI. So many gems there!  I have just started to stare into the well of The Kingdom (which I like) and have not yet started on The Apostles. I am a slowpoke and kind of want to take my time with these works. After all, I'm not in a hurry!  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 06, 2015, 10:18:36 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 06, 2015, 06:38:59 PM
My recording of the week or do I mean every week:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81%2BQM3ZzwGL._SL1417_.jpg)
[...]
The "Cello Concerto" is a highly emotional work, but at it's core it's lyrical and filled with much beauty that it shouldn't be a problem for the listener to understand. The cello playing of Jacqueline du Pre, as noted by every review I've read of this recording, is exemplary. In fact, I read a story where world-renown cellist Mstislav Rostropovich said after he heard du Pre's performance, he immediately took it out of his repertoire. This is du Pre's second performance of the Elgar and, in my opinion, the finer of the two. I never liked Barenboim's conducting that much and feel he's out-of-place in Elgar's music. Barbirolli, on the other hand, is in-tune with Elgar and the emotional range this work needs to be successful in a performance. Barbirolli is no stranger to Elgar, in fact, he has recorded almost all of the orchestral works for EMI ([[ASIN:B004MSRD4C British Composers: Sir John Barbirolli Conducts Elgar]]). Anyway, this is the best "Cello Concerto" performance I've heard and while other performances that have come to fore lately (i. e. Heinrich Schiff/Elder, Watkins/A. Davis) demonstrate admirable virtuosity, they still don't erase my mind of du Pre's performance.

[...]

Fantastic choice for the week (err..eternity). I have always loved the cello concerto with du Pré. Such vibrant and eternal power. She and her cello seem to be an entity that just exists for the purpose of making music. Time ceases to exist. A wonder!  Now when I think about it that was probably the first time that Elgar really entered my own sphere of music. I strongly suspect that I fell for du Pré's charisma and skill rather than the composer at that point in time.  :D    She was indeed an amazing cellist!

Here with the LPO under Barenboim in 1967:
https://www.youtube.com/v/UUgdbqt2ON0
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 07, 2015, 01:24:54 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 06, 2015, 10:18:36 PMNow when I think about it that was probably the first time that Elgar really entered my own sphere of music. I strongly suspect that I fell for du Pré's charisma and skill rather than the composer at that point in time.  :D    She was indeed an amazing cellist!

There's no denying the outstanding character of that du Pre/Barbirolli performance, and I doubt if it will ever be matched. I've loved it like everyone else. But over the years it was gradually displaced as my personal favourite  by Beatrice Harrison's recording with Elgar conducting, in 1928. I suspect most of the reasons for this are extra-musical. The more I learned about Beatrice Harrison, the more I fell under her spell. She was of course Elgar's choice of soloist, so one has the mental image of Elgar nodding with approval to what one is listening to. But she's also the musician who famously played the cello to the nightingales in her garden on summer evenings, and who can resist the idea of that? Her performance is much more understated than du Pre's - closer, one suspects, to Elgar's own notion of how the thing should go - but still full of feeling. There's a humility in her playing that's consistent with the kind of person she was - she used to write about how an audience would applaud 'the cello', rather than her.

The remarkable thing is that her recording of it is very, very accessible today. I'm as reluctant to engage with old mono recordings as anyone else, but the noise-removal and audio cleaning of the sound from the 78s has been so successful that after just a few moments of adjustment, one can forget the limitations of the medium and focus completely on the music. This, after all, is Elgar conducting, and his favourite cellist playing, and the experience is unique.

(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/5/23/1400838654394/Cellist-Beatrice-Harrison-012.jpg)

You can buy the Harrison recording separately, but what's the point when you can buy the wonderful box set of ALL Elgar's electric gramophone recordings for next to nothing:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Electrical-Recordings-Edward-Elgar/dp/B004MSRDK6/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1420627699&sr=1-1&keywords=elgar+electrical (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Electrical-Recordings-Edward-Elgar/dp/B004MSRDK6/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1420627699&sr=1-1&keywords=elgar+electrical)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 07, 2015, 01:31:03 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 06, 2015, 10:09:22 PM
I use my "mono-ears" with the historical recordings and they are quite forgiving.

At least mono sound doesn't contain spatial distortion with headphones.  ;D

For me listening to historical recordings (and I only have about half dozen of them) is other kind of listening, kind of a curiosity: Yeah, the sound quality sucks, but at least it's Elgar himself conducting his own music!

Naxos 8.111022 contains as a bonus track part of the Cockaigne Overture in "Accidental Stereo" recorded in 1933! It was common in those days to use 2 turntables recording the music, both fed from the same single microphone. In a handful of cases, two microfones were used. So, combining these two signals carefully on a computer, one can construct a stereophonic version of the track. The stereo image on this bonus track is far from optimal of course, but it makes the sound quality appear "better" and more modern than it really is.

Generally my ears aren't forgiving. I can forgive less than perfect performance if the sound quality is good.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2015, 07:11:11 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 06, 2015, 10:18:36 PM
Fantastic choice for the week (err..eternity). I have always loved the cello concerto with du Pré. Such vibrant and eternal power. She and her cello seem to be an entity that just exists for the purpose of making music. Time ceases to exist. A wonder!  Now when I think about it that was probably the first time that Elgar really entered my own sphere of music. I strongly suspect that I fell for du Pré's charisma and skill rather than the composer at that point in time.  :D    She was indeed an amazing cellist!

No mention of Baker's Sea Pictures?!?!? ??? That's sacrilege! Cast ye demon to the fiery pits! ;) :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 07, 2015, 08:49:10 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 06, 2015, 04:50:49 PM
Yes, this thread is moving along quite nicely. :) I'm excited about the influx of enthusiasm for Elgar's music. Please let me know your thoughts on the Takezawa/C. Davis performance. Also, what do you think of Chung/Solti? How would you rate that performance?

By the way, you can call me, John. What is your name?

John, I'll be very glad to let you know my thoughts re. both those recordings after I next listen to them again.  Just offhand, I recall being quite taken with Takezawa/ C. Davis--a rich, dark, creamy sort of performance with a distinctive character, if that makes any sense.  I always wondered why that recording did not gain more positive reviews, but I'm glad to see that Ralph Moore and others have given it glowing reviews on Amazon.

Chung/Solti, I think, was more straightforward.

But I'll let you know if those impressions hold after my next listening--it's probably been ten years or more since I listened to the Takazawa/ C. Davis, simply because I've got so many other recordings of this work (and of lots & lots of other stuff, Elgar & non-Elgar).

Cheers,

John, in the chilly northeast
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 07, 2015, 09:10:50 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 06, 2015, 06:19:41 PM
Tonight's Elgar quota:

Elgar: The Dream of Gerontius     Nash/Ripley/Noble/Walker/Huddersfield Choral Society/Liverpool PO/Sargent

The very first recording of TDoG from April 1945.  I am getting a bit addicted to this work by now....   ;)
It is my second listen to this specific Sargent recording and I definitely prefer it to his later one. Nash's voice is wonderful as Gerontius and the performance moves forward with urgency and passion. The war was not yet over in Europe and perhaps some of the spirit of the sorrow and pain of the war effort moved into the performance?  Not in the top tier, but definitely worthwhile. The sound has a little bit lack of resolution, but it is fantastic for being a 1945 recording (really!).

[asin] B000003XKH[/asin]

Walter Essex wrote a great comparative review of TDoG... (http://www.elgar.org/3gerontr.htm)

Yes, a wonderful performance, with a style of singing we don't hear anymore; and Sargent certainly rose to the occasion.

The comparative review on the Elgar website is a great resource, as indeed is the entire website.  There's also a useful, comprehensive comparative review by John Quinn on MusicWeb:  http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/May14/Gerontius_survey.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/May14/Gerontius_survey.htm)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2015, 09:26:35 AM
Quote from: jfdrex on January 07, 2015, 08:49:10 AMJohn, I'll be very glad to let you know my thoughts re. both those recordings after I next listen to them again.  Just offhand, I recall being quite taken with Takezawa/ C. Davis--a rich, dark, creamy sort of performance with a distinctive character, if that makes any sense.  I always wondered why that recording did not gain more positive reviews, but I'm glad to see that Ralph Moore and others have given it glowing reviews on Amazon.

Chung/Solti, I think, was more straightforward.

But I'll let you know if those impressions hold after my next listening--it's probably been ten years or more since I listened to the Takazawa/ C. Davis, simply because I've got so many other recordings of this work (and of lots & lots of other stuff, Elgar & non-Elgar).

Cheers,

John, in the chilly northeast

Very good to know, John. Yeah, I wonder why Takezawa never really got anywhere as a soloist? I have a recording of her performing Barber's VC and it's really good. If I haven't had heard Hahn's performance, I often wonder if she still would be my favorite after all of these years. I have this Takezawa on order, so, hopefully, I'll be able to impart my impressions on this very thread. She's going to have be pretty special not make me forget Little's incredible performance. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 07, 2015, 10:50:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 07, 2015, 07:11:11 AM
No mention of Baker's Sea Pictures?!?!? ??? That's sacrilege! Cast ye demon to the fiery pits! ;) :D

Saved that for another time. It felt like heresy to mention two legendary recordings in one post...  :P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 07, 2015, 10:51:26 AM
Quote from: jfdrex on January 07, 2015, 09:10:50 AM
Yes, a wonderful performance, with a style of singing we don't hear anymore; and Sargent certainly rose to the occasion.

The comparative review on the Elgar website is a great resource, as indeed is the entire website.  There's also a useful, comprehensive comparative review by John Quinn on MusicWeb:  http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/May14/Gerontius_survey.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/May14/Gerontius_survey.htm)

Oh, thanks for that musicweb link jdfrex!  I had not read that one. Very interesting!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2015, 10:51:49 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 07, 2015, 10:50:15 AM
Saved that for another time. It felt like heresy to mention two legendary recordings in one post...  :P

All is forgiven, Moonfish. 0:) :P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 07, 2015, 11:07:09 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 07, 2015, 01:24:54 AM
There's no denying the outstanding character of that du Pre/Barbirolli performance, and I doubt if it will ever be matched. I've loved it like everyone else. But over the years it was gradually displaced as my personal favourite  by Beatrice Harrison's recording with Elgar conducting, in 1928. I suspect most of the reasons for this are extra-musical. The more I learned about Beatrice Harrison, the more I fell under her spell. She was of course Elgar's choice of soloist, so one has the mental image of Elgar nodding with approval to what one is listening to. But she's also the musician who famously played the cello to the nightingales in her garden on summer evenings, and who can resist the idea of that? Her performance is much more understated than du Pre's - closer, one suspects, to Elgar's own notion of how the thing should go - but still full of feeling. There's a humility in her playing that's consistent with the kind of person she was - she used to write about how an audience would applaud 'the cello', rather than her.

The remarkable thing is that her recording of it is very, very accessible today. I'm as reluctant to engage with old mono recordings as anyone else, but the noise-removal and audio cleaning of the sound from the 78s has been so successful that after just a few moments of adjustment, one can forget the limitations of the medium and focus completely on the music. This, after all, is Elgar conducting, and his favourite cellist playing, and the experience is unique.

(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/5/23/1400838654394/Cellist-Beatrice-Harrison-012.jpg)

You can buy the Harrison recording separately, but what's the point when you can buy the wonderful box set of ALL Elgar's electric gramophone recordings for next to nothing:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Electrical-Recordings-Edward-Elgar/dp/B004MSRDK6/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1420627699&sr=1-1&keywords=elgar+electrical (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Electrical-Recordings-Edward-Elgar/dp/B004MSRDK6/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1420627699&sr=1-1&keywords=elgar+electrical)

That is absolutely fascinating Elgarian! I was not aware of the 1928 recording with Beatrice Harrison nor the wonderful story of her playing. I simply have to dig up Elgar's electric recordings and get the full exposure. Thanks for yet another inspiring post! I do love historical recordings!!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 07, 2015, 01:11:37 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 07, 2015, 11:07:09 AM
I was not aware of the 1928 recording with Beatrice Harrison nor the wonderful story of her playing. I simply have to dig up Elgar's electric recordings and get the full exposure.

Well I think you have a wonderful treat in store. There's the music itself - with all the wonder of recognising that this is Elgar himself at the helm - and also the little stories that are woven around it all. Like one occasion when they were going up to perform the cello concerto, and Elgar turned to Harrison and said: "Give it 'em, Beatrice. Don't worry about the notes or anything. Give 'em the spirit."

Harrison's Memoirs are a delight to read, and are available as The Cello and the Nightingales, see here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cello-Nightingales-Autobiography-Beatrice-Harrison/dp/0719542081/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1420668279&sr=1-1&keywords=cello+nightingales (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cello-Nightingales-Autobiography-Beatrice-Harrison/dp/0719542081/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1420668279&sr=1-1&keywords=cello+nightingales)

And if you want to hear her duetting with a nightingale, there are recordings on You tube, eg:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU1Z7QtyJVs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU1Z7QtyJVs)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2015, 05:34:36 PM
I'd love to read some opinions on Falstaff. What do you guys think of this work? I used to have some difficulty with it but this alleged 'difficulty' seems to have subsided thanks on account of Andrew Davis' fantastic performance with the BBC SO on Warner. Earlier today, I went back and listened to Barbirolli's only to find so much more richness in the score. I'm pretty excited about the prospect of hearing Boult conduct this work. Anyone have any favorite performances of Falstaff or interesting stories to share?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2015, 08:36:41 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Listening' thread:

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 07, 2015, 08:15:15 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/110/MI0001110504.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

I was listening to this Davis performance of Symphony No. 1 and I turned it off in disgust. I simply do not understand why he chose to tackle these symphonies? I mean the only thing that comes to mind that he brings to the music is refined playing from the LSO, but he seems like he dissects every little moment. Then there's the tempi, especially in the first movement, where there needs to be a forward momentum and some electricity. Davis conducts this work at a snail's pace. I liked his recording of Introduction & Allegro and Enigma Variations and his first performance of Symphony No. 1 with the Dresden Staatskapelle was a barnburner. What in the world happened here? Both performances of the symphonies fail to move me. Also, the recorded sound is dreadful. So dry and lifeless. Agh...I hope to never listen to this recording again.

Why is it that I can't, for the life of me, get onboard with these performances from Davis/LSO? On paper, it looks like it would be a great partnership. I suppose the cards weren't in Davis' favor when he recorded these symphonies?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 08, 2015, 02:08:54 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 07, 2015, 05:34:36 PM
I'd love to read some opinions on Falstaff. What do you guys think of this work? I used to have some difficulty with it but this alleged 'difficulty' seems to have subsided thanks on account of Andrew Davis' fantastic performance with the BBC SO on Warner. Earlier today, I went back and listened to Barbirolli's only to find so much more richness in the score. I'm pretty excited about the prospect of hearing Boult conduct this work. Anyone have any favorite performances of Falstaff or interesting stories to share?

Falstaff isn't very important Elgar work for me. The work somehow lacks the kind of emotionality and inner peace I enjoy in Elgar's music. However, it contains brilliant moments.  These I have:

Hallé Orchestra / Sir John Barbirolli / EMI
London Symphony Orchestra / Sir Edward Elgar / Naxos 8.111256
English Northern Philharmonia / David Lloyd-Jones / Naxos 8.553879


I think I will re-visit Barbirolli. I don't remember anything about it.  :-X

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 07, 2015, 08:36:41 PM
Why is it that I can't, for the life of me, get onboard with these performances from Davis/LSO? On paper, it looks like it would be a great partnership. I suppose the cards weren't in Davis' favor when he recorded these symphonies?

I don't know these performances so I can't comment on what is wrong (if anything really is).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2015, 08:55:04 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 08, 2015, 02:08:54 AM
Falstaff isn't very important Elgar work for me. The work somehow lacks the kind of emotionality and inner peace I enjoy in Elgar's music. However, it contains brilliant moments.  These I have:

Hallé Orchestra / Sir John Barbirolli / EMI
London Symphony Orchestra / Sir Edward Elgar / Naxos 8.111256
English Northern Philharmonia / David Lloyd-Jones / Naxos 8.553879


I think I will re-visit Barbirolli. I don't remember anything about it.  :-X

I don't know these performances so I can't comment on what is wrong (if anything really is).

You don't think highly of Falstaff, eh? Oh well, I think it's brilliant. As I mentioned, it did take some time for the work to 'click' for me. You only own three performances of Falstaff, I figured you would own them all by now. My Elgar collection has certainly gained in numbers since last year. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2015, 09:22:09 AM
Received today:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71my63thzcL._SL1054_.jpg) (https://www.dustygroove.com/images/products/e/elgar~~~~~~_concertof_102b.jpg)

I will definitely be giving both of these recordings a spin tonight.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 08, 2015, 03:06:33 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2015, 08:55:04 AM
You don't think highly of Falstaff, eh? Oh well, I think it's brilliant. As I mentioned, it did take some time for the work to 'click' for me. You only own three performances of Falstaff, I figured you would own them all by now. My Elgar collection has certainly gained in numbers since last year. :)

Well, what is highly enough?

I'm not much into buying multiple performances generally, but I do have half-dozen performances of many works by Elgar. I have 9 performances of Enigma Variations, 7 on orchestra and 2 on piano.  8)

I have collected Elgar pretty carefully the last 10 years or so. I bought four Elgar CDs (three of them double CDs) in 2014.

There are long periods when I hardly listen to classical music at all. My music taste has been expanding in unexpected directions. At the moment I have a classical music period and that's why I am also more active on this board.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2015, 03:18:05 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 08, 2015, 03:06:33 PM
Well, what is highly enough?

I'm not much into buying multiple performances generally, but I do have half-dozen performances of many works by Elgar. I have 9 performances of Enigma Variations, 7 on orchestra and 2 on piano.  8)

I have collected Elgar pretty carefully the last 10 years or so. I bought four Elgar CDs (three of them double CDs) in 2014.

There are long periods when I hardly listen to classical music at all. My music taste has been expanding in unexpected directions. At the moment I have a classical music period and that's why I am also more active on this board.

Highly enough would be considering Falstaff a masterwork, which I believe it is without a doubt in my mind even when I wasn't a big fan of the work. I think it sometimes falls to the wayside in favor of some more 'accessible' works in his oeuvre. Anyway, I love it and respect the fact that others do not and I'm certainly fine with this. I can't say I go into many musical directions or at least I haven't for the last six years with the exception being when I took about 3 (or 2?) months off from classical to pursue some other music interests, but those interests aren't long-lasting. Classical music is, for me, the genre I get the most out of from an emotional and intellectual standpoint. I do love jazz and progressive rock, for example, but they don't satisfy as much.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2015, 05:21:04 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2015, 09:22:09 AM
Received today:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71my63thzcL._SL1054_.jpg) (https://www.dustygroove.com/images/products/e/elgar~~~~~~_concertof_102b.jpg)

I will definitely be giving both of these recordings a spin tonight.

Gave the Takezawa/C. Davis a listen but didn't feel anything from it like I did Little/A. Davis. Takezawa definitely plays well, but I need more from the Violin Concerto. I got halfway through the first movement of Symphony No. 2 with Barenboim/Staatskapelle and turned it off. This isn't the Elgar 'sound' that I know and love. It sounds a bit emotionless to me. I just couldn't make it through it without being disappointed by how out-of-touch Barenboim is from Elgar's sound-world. The reviewer on Amazon had it right when they said Barenboim was no Elgarian. He certainly isn't in my book. Boult is starting to sound a lot better to me now. I'm definitely going to be revisiting his performances once I get his EMI Complete Elgar Recordings set.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 09, 2015, 01:41:24 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2015, 05:21:04 PM
Boult is starting to sound a lot better to me now. I'm definitely going to be revisiting his performances once I get his EMI Complete Elgar Recordings set.

One thing about Boult that always inspires me to listen again is the knowledge that Elgar himself thought so highly of him. He wrote to him around 1920 after listening to him conduct one of the symphonies: "I feel that my reputation in the future is safe in your hands". That's a remarkable thing for a composer to say to a conductor. Of course I'm not suggesting this means that all Boult's performances of Elgar are automatically definitive - not at all - but I do find it helpful to remember it.

There's a particularly incandescent performance conducted by Boult of the 1st symphony which I stumbled across by accident in a charity shop some years ago. It had been given away free with BBC Music Magazine - a 1976 live Prom performance (one of Boult's last), and it just blew me away (not an insignificant event, given that I've passionately loved Elgar's 1st symphony all my life). It seemed to convey a lifetime of experience with the work, with great sympathy and insight, and towering majesty. I believe it received a proper official release just a year or two ago, to great acclaim.

In fact yes, here it is, on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-Elgar-Adrian-Symphony-Classics/dp/B006VOX7Q8 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-Elgar-Adrian-Symphony-Classics/dp/B006VOX7Q8)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 09, 2015, 03:13:09 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 09, 2015, 01:41:24 AM
There's a particularly incandescent performance conducted by Boult of the 1st symphony which I stumbled across by accident in a charity shop some years ago. It had been given away free with BBC Music Magazine - a 1976 live Prom performance (one of Boult's last), and it just blew me away (not an insignificant event, given that I've passionately loved Elgar's 1st symphony all my life). It seemed to convey a lifetime of experience with the work, with great sympathy and insight, and towering majesty.

Somebody on this board recommended that performance years ago (sorry, I can't remember who it was) and I bought the Magazine (yes, they selled it in Helsinki) for that CD. I haven't listened to it for a long time. I remember the performance being quite good, but the sound quality a bit odd (granular? Live Proms performances must be difficult to record well).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2015, 06:48:02 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 09, 2015, 01:41:24 AM
One thing about Boult that always inspires me to listen again is the knowledge that Elgar himself thought so highly of him. He wrote to him around 1920 after listening to him conduct one of the symphonies: "I feel that my reputation in the future is safe in your hands". That's a remarkable thing for a composer to say to a conductor. Of course I'm not suggesting this means that all Boult's performances of Elgar are automatically definitive - not at all - but I do find it helpful to remember it.

There's a particularly incandescent performance conducted by Boult of the 1st symphony which I stumbled across by accident in a charity shop some years ago. It had been given away free with BBC Music Magazine - a 1976 live Prom performance (one of Boult's last), and it just blew me away (not an insignificant event, given that I've passionately loved Elgar's 1st symphony all my life). It seemed to convey a lifetime of experience with the work, with great sympathy and insight, and towering majesty. I believe it received a proper official release just a year or two ago, to great acclaim.

In fact yes, here it is, on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-Elgar-Adrian-Symphony-Classics/dp/B006VOX7Q8 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-Elgar-Adrian-Symphony-Classics/dp/B006VOX7Q8)

I'll definitely check it out. Thanks, Elgarian and, yes, I knew Elgar held Boult in high regard, which is reason enough to give his performances another listen.
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 09, 2015, 10:03:30 AM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/09/9edd4c1599faf0d747db552ee289a4bb.jpg)

This Boult performance of no.2 is simply amazing. The flow, the phrasing and sound quality is breathtaking in every way. The second movement is a great example, it is simply glorious.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2015, 10:17:50 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 09, 2015, 10:03:30 AM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/09/9edd4c1599faf0d747db552ee289a4bb.jpg)

This Boult performance of no.2 is simply amazing. The flow, the phrasing and sound quality is breathtaking in every way. The second movement is a great example, it is simply glorious.

Will definitely dig this one out tonight, Leo. Have you heard Boult's Lyrita recordings of Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 09, 2015, 11:27:23 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 09, 2015, 10:17:50 AM
Will definitely dig this one out tonight, Leo. Have you heard Boult's Lyrita recordings of Symphonies Nos. 1 &amp; 2?
It's in my Amazon cart, pretty sure I will buy it today!

I didn't get Boult's Elgar when I first started listening to Elgar, but this conversation led me to try him again and I was amazed. :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 09, 2015, 11:33:29 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2015, 03:18:05 PM
Highly enough would be considering Falstaff a masterwork, which I believe it is without a doubt in my mind even when I wasn't a big fan of the work. I think it sometimes falls to the wayside in favor of some more 'accessible' works in his oeuvre. Anyway, I love it and respect the fact that others do not and I'm certainly fine with this.

Today I listened Barbirolli's version of Falstaff. The work contains excellent parts, but particularly Part II is a bit tiresome repeating it's rather weak thematic material as nauseum (10 minutes). I have no problem with people enjoying Falstaff. I wish I enjoyed it as much as you do.  ;)

What is your favorite Falstaff performance?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2015, 11:42:15 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 09, 2015, 11:27:23 AM
It's in my Amazon cart, pretty sure I will buy it today!

I didn't get Boult's Elgar when I first started listening to Elgar, but this conversation led me to try him again and I was amazed. :D

Sometimes all it takes is re-listening. I know my opinion has certainly become much softer regarding Boult.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2015, 11:44:05 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 09, 2015, 11:33:29 AM
Today I listened Barbirolli's version of Falstaff. The work contains excellent parts, but particularly Part II is a bit tiresome repeating it's rather weak thematic material as nauseum (10 minutes). I have no problem with people enjoying Falstaff. I wish I enjoyed it as much as you do.  ;)

What is your favorite Falstaff performance?

Indeed. It's a tough work to get your mind around. I won't deny that, as I have mentioned before, I have had problems with it as well. My favorite performance of Falstaff? Probably Andrew Davis/BBC SO on Warner with Barbirolli coming in a close second. I haven't heard that many of them, though.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 09, 2015, 11:50:58 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 09, 2015, 11:44:05 AM
Indeed. It's a tough work to get your mind around. I won't deny that, as I have mentioned before, I have had problems with it as well.

I wouldn't say I have problems with the work other than it doesn't make it to my top 10 Elgar list. Top 20 maybe...

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 09, 2015, 11:44:05 AMMy favorite performance of Falstaff? Probably Andrew Davis/BBC SO on Warner with Barbirolli coming in a close second. I haven't heard that many of them, though.

Ok, thanks!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 09, 2015, 11:52:50 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2015, 05:21:04 PM
Gave the Takezawa/C. Davis a listen but didn't feel anything from it like I did Little/A. Davis. Takezawa definitely plays well, but I need more from the Violin Concerto. I got halfway through the first movement of Symphony No. 2 with Barenboim/Staatskapelle and turned it off. This isn't the Elgar 'sound' that I know and love. It sounds a bit emotionless to me. I just couldn't make it through it without being disappointed by how out-of-touch Barenboim is from Elgar's sound-world. The reviewer on Amazon had it right when they said Barenboim was no Elgarian. He certainly isn't in my book. Boult is starting to sound a lot better to me now. I'm definitely going to be revisiting his performances once I get his EMI Complete Elgar Recordings set.
I'm definitely curious about these performances, thanks for your thoughts!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2015, 01:08:53 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 09, 2015, 11:50:58 AM

Ok, thanks!

You're welcome!

Quote from: Leo K. on January 09, 2015, 11:52:50 AM
I'm definitely curious about these performances, thanks for your thoughts!

You're welcome!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 09, 2015, 02:17:16 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2015, 05:21:04 PM
Gave the Takezawa/C. Davis a listen but didn't feel anything from it like I did Little/A. Davis. Takezawa definitely plays well, but I need more from the Violin Concerto. I got halfway through the first movement of Symphony No. 2 with Barenboim/Staatskapelle and turned it off. This isn't the Elgar 'sound' that I know and love. It sounds a bit emotionless to me. I just couldn't make it through it without being disappointed by how out-of-touch Barenboim is from Elgar's sound-world. The reviewer on Amazon had it right when they said Barenboim was no Elgarian. He certainly isn't in my book. Boult is starting to sound a lot better to me now. I'm definitely going to be revisiting his performances once I get his EMI Complete Elgar Recordings set.

John, sorry the Takezawa/ C. Davis recording of the Violin Concerto didn't quite do it for you.  As it happens, I listened to the Chung/ Solti recording last evening, and had much the same reaction to that one--the playing was fine, but the performance as a whole struck me as a series of disjointed highlights rather than a complete narrative, an unidiomatic interpretation (largely Solti's fault?) lacking a sense of emotional engagement.  (A shame, since I do feel Solti's interpretations of the symphonies are thoroughly Elgarian.)  I'll have to listen to Takezawa/ C. Davis again to see I have a more positive response to that.

In addition to the Little/ A . Davis, I discovered that I also have a download of a broadcast of a performance she gave with Vernon Handley and the BBC SO.  I'm looking forward to comparing and contrast those two performances.  (That will make a total of three different Elgar VC performances I'll have heard by her.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 09, 2015, 02:29:14 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 09, 2015, 10:03:30 AM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/09/9edd4c1599faf0d747db552ee289a4bb.jpg)

This Boult performance of no.2 is simply amazing. The flow, the phrasing and sound quality is breathtaking in every way. The second movement is a great example, it is simply glorious.

My wife considers this one of her desert island discs.  (I feel the same way--but if she goes off and takes that one to her desert island, I guess I'll have to take Barbirolli to mine. :laugh:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2015, 02:35:06 PM
Quote from: jfdrex on January 09, 2015, 02:17:16 PM
John, sorry the Takezawa/ C. Davis recording of the Violin Concerto didn't quite do it for you.  As it happens, I listened to the Chung/ Solti recording last evening, and had much the same reaction to that one--the playing was fine, but the performance as a whole struck me as a series of disjointed highlights rather than a complete narrative, an unidiomatic interpretation (largely Solti's fault?) lacking a sense of emotional engagement.  (A shame, since I do feel Solti's interpretations of the symphonies are thoroughly Elgarian.)  I'll have to listen to Takezawa/ C. Davis again to see I have a more positive response to that.

In addition to the Little/ A . Davis, I discovered that I also have a download of a broadcast of a performance she gave with Vernon Handley and the BBC SO.  I'm looking forward to comparing and contrast those two performances.  (That will make a total of three different Elgar VC performances I'll have heard by her.)

Well, we're all wired differently and we shouldn't expect to have the same kinds of reactions. I haven't heard the Chung/Solti, so I can't comment on the merits of their performance. I do like Solti's Elgar recordings, though. He also has a fine Enigma Variations that seems to hit all the right spots. Tasmin Little is a great Elgarian IMHO. She plays the VC like no one else. There's a strong narrative in her performance and the whole thing just holds together so well. I'm looking forward to your comments after you've done some comparisons.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 09, 2015, 05:24:41 PM
The violin concerto, is an elusive work. I can't pretend to know the work all that well but over the course of listening to a variety of interpretations I have come to develp an immense fondness for its mixture of sensuality and nobilmente. These are the ones I have :

Ehnes-A. Davis
Chung-Solti
Haendel - Boult
Kennedy-Rattle
Kang-Leaper

I am awaiting the Elgar-Boult big box which I believe has the Mr. Bean - Boult version. When I receive it I wil compare it to the others and attempt an assessment.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2015, 06:18:52 PM
Quote from: André on January 09, 2015, 05:24:41 PM
The violin concerto, is an elusive work. I can't pretend to know the work all that well but over the course of listening to a variety of interpretations I have come to develp an immense fondness for its mixture of sensuality and nobilmente. These are the ones I have :

Ehnes-A. Davis
Chung-Solti
Haendel - Boult
Kennedy-Rattle
Kang-Leaper

I am awaiting the Elgar-Boult big box which I believe has the Mr. Bean - Boult version. When I receive it I wil compare it to the others and attempt an assessment.

It's certainly an elusive work. I've heard it so many times that I feel I should know better than I do, but even after so many hearings, I'm still mystified by it (in a good way). It's one of those works that doesn't lay everything out for you, which is how I feel about the symphonies, Falstaff, the chamber works, the oratorios, etc. It causes me to reconsider what actually could have been the intent each time I listen to it. I do love the work unconditionally, though and I think it's one of the finest pieces of music from Elgar's pen.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 10, 2015, 01:48:59 AM
Quote from: André on January 09, 2015, 05:24:41 PM
The violin concerto, is an elusive work. I can't pretend to know the work all that well but over the course of listening to a variety of interpretations I have come to develp an immense fondness for its mixture of sensuality and nobilmente. These are the ones I have :

Ehnes-A. Davis
Chung-Solti
Haendel - Boult
Kennedy-Rattle
Kang-Leaper

I am awaiting the Elgar-Boult big box which I believe has the Mr. Bean - Boult version. When I receive it I wil compare it to the others and attempt an assessment.

Unless you know something I don't (very possible!), I don't think you'll find the Hugh Bean violin concerto in the Boult box, sadly. There IS a wonderful recording of the VC by Bean, but it was with Charles Groves and the RLPO. I believe Bean did perform it with Boult on at least one occasion, but I know of no recording of that performance.

The Bean recording that stimulated so much discussion a few years ago in this thread (and which I suspect is the one you're referring to) is this one:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL.jpg)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Violin-Sonata-Concerto-Quintet-Quartet/dp/B0001ZM8VI/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1420885929&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=elgar+vioin+concerto+groves (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Violin-Sonata-Concerto-Quintet-Quartet/dp/B0001ZM8VI/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1420885929&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=elgar+vioin+concerto+groves)

It's more expensive than it used to be, but it's a double CD which includes the 'Big Three' chamber pieces. And whatever the cost, the performance is priceless.

I've said so much about the violin concerto already over the years that whatever I say now is likely to be a repeat ... but I have a thought or two about that 'elusiveness'. We know for sure that a particular person - Alice Stuart Wortley - was associated with its 'windflowerisms', but I think there's a strong element of 'mythicising the feminine' that goes beyond any particular literal association. As with all myths, it won't be pinned down: it niggles at us with alternate suggestions of meaning when we start thinking about it in different ways. So no matter how we try to unravel it, that 'elusiveness' will remain.

There's also of course Elgar's fondness of 'japes' to be taken into account. He loved to tease his friends with tantalising puzzles, and I fancy that dedication of the VC - 'Herein is enshrined the soul of ....' - will remain as elusive as the 'enigma' theme of the variations.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 10, 2015, 09:08:17 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 10, 2015, 01:48:59 AM
Unless you know something I don't (very possible!), I don't think you'll find the Hugh Bean violin concerto in the Boult box, sadly. There IS a wonderful recording of the VC by Bean, but it was with Charles Groves and the RLPO. I believe Bean did perform it with Boult on at least one occasion, but I know of no recording of that performance.

The Bean recording that stimulated so much discussion a few years ago in this thread (and which I suspect is the one you're referring to) is this one:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL.jpg)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Violin-Sonata-Concerto-Quintet-Quartet/dp/B0001ZM8VI/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1420885929&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=elgar+vioin+concerto+groves (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Violin-Sonata-Concerto-Quintet-Quartet/dp/B0001ZM8VI/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1420885929&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=elgar+vioin+concerto+groves)

It's more expensive than it used to be, but it's a double CD which includes the 'Big Three' chamber pieces. And whatever the cost, the performance is priceless.

I've said so much about the violin concerto already over the years that whatever I say now is likely to be a repeat ... but I have a thought or two about that 'elusiveness'. We know for sure that a particular person - Alice Stuart Wortley - was associated with its 'windflowerisms', but I think there's a strong element of 'mythicising the feminine' that goes beyond any particular literal association. As with all myths, it won't be pinned down: it niggles at us with alternate suggestions of meaning when we start thinking about it in different ways. So no matter how we try to unravel it, that 'elusiveness' will remain.

There's also of course Elgar's fondness of 'japes' to be taken into account. He loved to tease his friends with tantalising puzzles, and I fancy that dedication of the VC - 'Herein is enshrined the soul of ....' - will remain as elusive as the 'enigma' theme of the variations.

Found in the EMI set in case the cost for the double cd is prohibitive...

[asin] B000UNBQW8[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 10, 2015, 01:16:22 PM
Of course (after finding my EMI set) I went ahead and listened to the concerto...   How could I resist?

Elgar: Violin Concerto      Bean/Royal Liverpool PO/Groves

This is my first time hearing Bean's performance with RLPO/Groves and as the concerto progressed I quickly realized that this is a performance I want to listen to again very soon. It felt immensely satisfying in numerous aspects reaching from Bean's emotional investment in his playing, an engaging ensemble as well as a very high SQ (in my ears). Like many of Elgar's works the VC literally weaves a spell that will make one return to it. Every time I hear it the music appears richer and more enjoyable in my mind's eye.  Elgar's VC clearly has a lot to offer as a composition (we are in consensus in the thread) and Bean certainly does not disappoint. The third movement is fantastic! Bravo! Bravo!

I have been a little bit distracted by reality lately as my wife is having surgery so I have not had much leisure time to post or listen to music. However, I try to read your impressions of Elgar whenever I get the chance.  Life takes us in so many unexpected directions. Perhaps this is something I personally sense (and resonate with) in Elgar's works as I encounter and revisit them?

[asin] B0001ZM8VI[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 10, 2015, 03:51:17 PM
You're right of course - the Boult box has two recordings of the VC: Haendel (1978) and Menuhin (1965). I yet have to get acquainted with the Bean interpretation.

I also have the Haendel-Boult version of the VC on Testament - presumably licensed form EMI?.  Should that be so, I will not part with the Testament issue, as it contains a marvellous interp of the Bach Chaconne. I heard Haendel play it in 2013 and was bowled over by its boldness, depth and sheer virtuosity - from an artist well into her eighties !!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 10, 2015, 04:43:55 PM
Keeping my sails up on the Elgar Sea. I have retrieved the Elgar EMI box as well as the Electrical recordings from my dusty archives. My cds are competing with books in a limited space. Compromises, compromises..!  Ahh - I have to reorganize soon! So, I could not resist listening to the VC once again today even though Bean's performance still was lingering in the crevices of my mind.

Elgar: Violin Concerto     Menuhin/London SO/Elgar       (1932)

The sound quality is obviously not comparable to later recordings, but it is still fantastic for 1932.  I think that Menuhin plays very well here with a virtuosic passion that virtually oozes from the speakers. I cannot quite figure out if it is Menuhin's actual performance or the amazing fact that this is Elgar himself conducting the concerto that makes this recording magical? Still, magical it is! It would not be my first pick, but it is fascinating and a must. Looking forward to additional gems from Elgar's efforts in recording his compositions. I have to listen to the Cello Concerto w/ Beatrice Harrison that you recommended, Elgarian!

[asin] B004MSRDK6[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 10, 2015, 05:04:25 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 06, 2015, 06:19:41 PM
Tonight's Elgar quota:

Elgar: The Dream of Gerontius     Nash/Ripley/Noble/Walker/Huddersfield Choral Society/Liverpool PO/Sargent

The very first recording of TDoG from April 1945.  I am getting a bit addicted to this work by now....   ;)
It is my second listen to this specific Sargent recording and I definitely prefer it to his later one. Nash's voice is wonderful as Gerontius and the performance moves forward with urgency and passion. The war was not yet over in Europe and perhaps some of the spirit of the sorrow and pain of the war effort moved into the performance?  Not in the top tier, but definitely worthwhile. The sound has a little bit lack of resolution, but it is fantastic for being a 1945 recording (really!).

[asin] B000003XKH[/asin]

Walter Essex wrote a great comparative review of TDoG... (http://www.elgar.org/3gerontr.htm)
Thank you for that interesting link Moonfish!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 10, 2015, 05:22:31 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 10, 2015, 04:43:55 PM
Keeping my sails up on the Elgar Sea. I have retrieved the Elgar EMI box as well as the Electrical recordings from my dusty archives. My cds are competing with books in a limited space. Compromises, compromises..!  Ahh - I have to reorganize soon! So, I could not resist listening to the VC once again today even though Bean's performance still was lingering in the crevices of my mind.

Elgar: Violin Concerto     Menuhin/London SO/Elgar       (1932)

The sound quality is obviously not comparable to later recordings, but it is still fantastic for 1932.  I think that Menuhin plays very well here with a virtuosic passion that virtually oozes from the speakers. I cannot quite figure out if it is Menuhin's actual performance or the amazing fact that this is Elgar himself conducting the concerto that makes this recording magical? Still, magical it is! It would not be my first pick, but it is fascinating and a must. Looking forward to additional gems from Elgar's efforts in recording his compositions. I have to listen to the Cello Concerto w/ Beatrice Harrison that you recommended, Elgarian!

[asin] B004MSRDK6[/asin]
I just heard the Elgar/Menuhin for the first time today and was completely and utterly blown away by it. I've not yet heard such a moving and direct performance of the violin concerto. As a lover of historical recordings this exactly my cup of tea! I can't wait to hear it again after listening to more new Elgar recordings in my queue :)
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 10, 2015, 05:30:27 PM
The Cello Concerto is immediately a new favorite work. I'm listening to the historical recording of W.H. Squire (cello) and Hamilton Harty, which I downloaded from the Music Parlor blog:

http://musicparlourhistorical.blogspot.com/2011/02/hamilton-harty-conducts-elgar-cello.html?m=1  (http://musicparlourhistorical.blogspot.com/2011/02/hamilton-harty-conducts-elgar-cello.html?m=1)

An excellent transfer!

I've only heard two other recordings of this work, the du Pre/Babirolli and  Weilerstein/Barenboim, both very great, but the Squire was immediately stunning.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 10, 2015, 07:40:18 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 10, 2015, 09:08:17 AM
Found in the EMI set in case the cost for the double cd is prohibitive...

[asin] B000UNBQW8[/asin]

You had to post this box set didn't you? ::) ;D (wipes drool from mouth)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 11, 2015, 01:22:15 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 10, 2015, 01:16:22 PM

This is my first time hearing Bean's performance with RLPO/Groves and as the concerto progressed I quickly realized that this is a performance I want to listen to again very soon. It felt immensely satisfying in numerous aspects reaching from Bean's emotional investment in his playing, an engaging ensemble as well as a very high SQ (in my ears). Like many of Elgar's works the VC literally weaves a spell that will make one return to it. Every time I hear it the music appears richer and more enjoyable in my mind's eye.  Elgar's VC clearly has a lot to offer as a composition (we are in consensus in the thread) and Bean certainly does not disappoint. The third movement is fantastic! Bravo! Bravo!

The archaeologist Jacquetta Hawkes famously said of Stonehenge that every age gets the Stonehenge is deserves - or desires. I suspect a similar thing might be said about great musical works. It's never possible to come to a piece of music with the mind a completely blank slate - and I'm quite sure that my fondness for Bean's VC recording owes a lot to the fact that it was the first I owned. That means of course that much of my thinking about the VC over the years has been coloured by Bean's approach to it, so I expect there's an element of self-fulfilling prophecy about the whole business. But there is something about his restraint - his resistance to producing a mere display of virtuoso fireworks - that just feels right to me; and while I've very much enjoyed, for example, Tasmin Little's recent mature and thoughtful interpretation, I keep on coming back to HB and CG.

QuoteI have been a little bit distracted by reality lately as my wife is having surgery so I have not had much leisure time to post or listen to music.

Difficult times. Hope all is going well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 11, 2015, 02:57:41 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 10, 2015, 01:16:22 PMI have been a little bit distracted by reality lately as my wife is having surgery so I have not had much leisure time to post or listen to music. However, I try to read your impressions of Elgar whenever I get the chance.  Life takes us in so many unexpected directions.

Speaking to you as someone who is a friend, I'm sorry to hear about this, Moonfish. I hope she is okay and makes a speedy recovery. Cherish the moments you have with loved ones.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 11, 2015, 11:30:43 PM
Thanks! We are back home again and things are looking good.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 11, 2015, 11:40:55 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 02, 2015, 02:17:31 AM
I've been away for quite a while, but wondered if this new recording of The Spirit of England might have generated a bit of discussion, so thought I'd pop in to see.

I've loved this piece for many years and have written about it a lot on this forum (see my earlier posts in this Elgar thread). The Spirit of England has for a long time been terribly overlooked and under-rated, but because of the WW1 remembrances there have actually been some live performances of it during 2014, and now comes this new recording. As one of my most-loved Elgar works, it was an obvious and immediate purchase for me.

Of the previously available recordings, one stands head and shoulders above the rest, and I've banged on about it for years - the Alexander Gibson recording with Teresa Cahill as soloist. (Mirror Image mentions it in his post.) It's the kind of recording that is capable of significantly changing one's musical perceptions, and when I first listened to it many years ago, it did just that.

Now there are horses for courses, and there are all kinds of recordings that suit all kinds of people, and vive la difference, and all that.  But I must say that this new recording just doesn't do it for me. I can't comment on the technical aspects of the performance, but the whole feeling is somehow lightweight - surely, surely, not the approach one would expect for a work of this stature. To my ears there is a universe of difference between the soul-felt richness and nuanced power that Cahill brings to the soloist part, and the curiously light and airy performance of this new recording.

I'm not saying don't try it. It may suit other temperaments. But I suspect that the one listening I've already given my copy is all that it's likely to get. The Cahill/Gibson recording changed me in important ways when I first heard it. If I'd heard this recording instead, I think it would have made little impact on me. If you're going to try The Spirit of England, not having heard it before, then my suggestion is that this is not the place to start.

Happy new year to all my old chums, by the way!

Spirit of England

I came across this recent article (August 2014) about The Spirit of England (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Aug14/Elgar_spirit.htm). The reviewer was not exactly very positive about the Cahill/Gibson performance.  :(
It is interesting how we as individuals appreciate music so differently.  Now I really want to hear the Cahill/Gibson recording!!!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 11, 2015, 11:47:24 PM
What do you think about these two recordings? Worthwhile?

[asin] B009IF123W[/asin]

[asin] B009MOIQ6U[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 12:53:48 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 11, 2015, 11:40:55 PM
Spirit of England

I came across this recent article (August 2014) about The Spirit of England (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Aug14/Elgar_spirit.htm). The reviewer was not exactly very positive about the Cahill/Gibson performance.  :(
It is interesting how we as individuals appreciate music so differently.  Now I really want to hear the Cahill/Gibson recording!!!

Sometimes one reads a review ... and the only response one is capable of is  ... 'WHAT?'

I can only suppose that the reviewer and I are listening to the work with completely different expectations - completely different notions about what The Spirit of England is, and is about.

The fellow is talking about one of the finest, most moving performances of any work that I know, after a lifetime of listening. What can I say, except ... well, OK? And move on.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 12, 2015, 05:04:24 AM
Great to "see" you again, Alan!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 12, 2015, 05:30:09 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 12:53:48 AM
Sometimes one reads a review ... and the only response one is capable of is  ... 'WHAT?'

I can only suppose that the reviewer and I are listening to the work with completely different expectations - completely different notions about what The Spirit of England is, and is about.

The fellow is talking about one of the finest, most moving performances of any work that I know, after a lifetime of listening. What can I say, except ... well, OK? And move on.

Maybe he put on the wrong recording..??    ;) :D ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 07:13:45 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 12, 2015, 05:30:09 AM
Maybe he put on the wrong recording..??    ;) :D ;D

Well I'm sure he didn't. But it seems to me that we are faced here once again with a problem that is endemic in all art, and in all art criticism. It doesn't matter what work of art we are discussing (or the kind of art), it will always be possible to find a critical framework against which the work can be shown to fail. And it is often the greatest works - those which are most idiosyncratic, most emphatically themselves - which can suffer most.

Think for example of the finest landscape painting you know by Cezanne - one perhaps that almost amounts to the reinvention of painting - and it would be a simple matter to construct a series of critical requirements with which it fails to comply: its lack of decisiveness (in the leaving of bits of canvas blank), the supposed clumsiness of delineation, the heightened unrealistic colouring, and so on. All those things on which its greatness rests can be argued to be its weaknesses; and indeed were so argued, historically. And really, there isn't much middle ground. Cezanne is either one of the greatest of all painters, or an abject bungler, according to the critical framework one superimposes on his work.

I think something of this sort is what's happening with this review of the Gibson/Cahill Spirit of England. The reviewer regards the 'slowness' of Gibson's pace as indicative of 'pompousness'; I regard it as an entirely appropriate deep seriousness. He finds Cahill's singing in 'To Women' 'histrionic'; I find it intense, deeply felt, and sincere. He sees the music as being 'pulled out of shape again and again'; I see it as being given a heartfelt interpretation on the edge of genius.

There's no meeting ground here, and there's no right answer. There is no 'best recording'. When all's done, there are only listeners attending to the music: in one case finding disappointment, and in another, an epiphany.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 07:17:03 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 12, 2015, 05:04:24 AM
Great to "see" you again, Alan!

My dear chap, how the hell are you? Happy new year to you. May all your frolics be outrageous and fun.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2015, 07:36:04 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 11, 2015, 11:40:55 PM
Spirit of England

I came across this recent article (August 2014) about The Spirit of England (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Aug14/Elgar_spirit.htm). The reviewer was not exactly very positive about the Cahill/Gibson performance.  :(
It is interesting how we as individuals appreciate music so differently.  Now I really want to hear the Cahill/Gibson recording!!!

There's always going to be some kind of disagreement or argument made in art, but if I really feel something from a performance, it doesn't really matter what others think. The most important part is I walk away from a piece of music with a greater appreciation for it and, while I vehemently disagree with this reviewer, it's just an opinion. We all have them.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 12, 2015, 07:37:42 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 07:17:03 AM
My dear chap, how the hell are you? Happy new year to you. May all your frolics be outrageous and fun.

There will be more swivelling & bopping, for one thing!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2015, 07:47:28 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 11, 2015, 11:47:24 PM
What do you think about these two recordings? Worthwhile?

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/%20B009IF123W.01.L.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/%20B009MOIQ6U.01.L.jpg)

I own both of these recordings and both are delightful. Granted, none of these recordings contain a major work of Elgar's but that doesn't matter as the quality of the music is still quite high and one who loves Elgar should find a lot of enjoyment here. The Starlight Express is very much a fun work and kind of takes the whole idea of The Wand of Youth Suites or The Nursery Suite and blows them up into a larger framework with added narration. It's great fun but it's not a work I return very often. I might occasionally listen to the suite that's pulled from The Starlight Express, but that's about it. As for the other recording, it's a definitely a good one and it kind of ties up some odds and ends in terms of Elgar's oeuvre. Carillion, Une Voix dans le Desert, and Le Drapeau Belge are works for narrator, soloists, and orchestra. I really haven't given these more than one listen, so I can't comment on the merits of the music nor the performances themselves. The ballet The Sanguine Fan can be found in several other recordings, but it's a fine performance nonetheless. This is a work I haven't given much thought about, so perhaps Elgarian can indulge us here?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 07:55:41 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 12, 2015, 07:37:42 AM
There will be more swivelling & bopping, for one thing!

I am delighted to hear it. I wish you also much 'infectious bounce and twinkling affection'!(Remember that old stuff?)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 08:09:28 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 12, 2015, 07:47:28 AM
Carillion, Une Voix dans le Desert, and Le Drapeau Belge are works for narrator, soloists, and orchestra. I really haven't given these more than one listen, so I can't comment on the merits of the music nor the performances themselves. The ballet The Sanguine Fan can be found in several other recordings, but it's a fine performance nonetheless. This is a work I haven't given much thought about, so perhaps Elgarian can indulge us here?

I've nothing to contribute about The Sanguine Fan I'm afraid, but I would like to put in a good word for Une Voix dans le Desert. It's only a short piece - as MI says, a work for narrator, soloist and orchestra. But the central sung passage, which lasts about 5 minutes, is simply wonderful. It's a soprano part, emulating a girl singing from a cottage in the middle of a battlefield, very moving, very beautiful. Sad to relate, Teresa Cahill's version seems now to be effectively unavailable:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518V5plaHVL.jpg)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-War-Music-Barry-Collett/dp/B000027GPO/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1421082381&sr=1-1&keywords=elgar+war+music (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-War-Music-Barry-Collett/dp/B000027GPO/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1421082381&sr=1-1&keywords=elgar+war+music)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 12, 2015, 08:25:10 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 07:55:41 AM
I am delighted to hear it. I wish you also much 'infectious bounce and twinkling affection'!(Remember that old stuff?)

Remember it! I invented it!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2015, 08:31:35 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 08:09:28 AM
I've nothing to contribute about The Sanguine Fan I'm afraid, but I would like to put in a good word for Une Voix dans le Desert. It's only a short piece - as MI says, a work for narrator, soloist and orchestra. But the central sung passage, which lasts about 5 minutes, is simply wonderful. It's a soprano part, emulating a girl singing from a cottage in the middle of a battlefield, very moving, very beautiful. Sad to relate, Teresa Cahill's version seems now to be effectively unavailable:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518V5plaHVL.jpg)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-War-Music-Barry-Collett/dp/B000027GPO/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1421082381&sr=1-1&keywords=elgar+war+music (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-War-Music-Barry-Collett/dp/B000027GPO/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1421082381&sr=1-1&keywords=elgar+war+music)

(Wipes drool from mouth) I really hope Naxos reissues that Collins recording. We need more Cahill recordings in circulation! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on January 12, 2015, 09:45:21 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 12:53:48 AM
Sometimes one reads a review ... and the only response one is capable of is  ... 'WHAT?'

I can only suppose that the reviewer and I are listening to the work with completely different expectations - completely different notions about what The Spirit of England is, and is about.

The fellow is talking about one of the finest, most moving performances of any work that I know, after a lifetime of listening. What can I say, except ... well, OK? And move on.

Agreed, the remarks on Cahill are bizarre, Gibson's pacing seems just fine to me.....but then, I am rather biased about the recording.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 12, 2015, 09:50:46 AM
You're back! You're back! You're back!! I missed it! I am blind! But I am happy! You have made my year :)

Now I must see what I have missed....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 12, 2015, 10:03:27 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 11, 2015, 11:30:43 PM
Thanks! We are back home again and things are looking good.  :)
Good to hear!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 12, 2015, 10:29:48 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 08:09:28 AM
Teresa Cahill's version seems now to be effectively unavailable:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518V5plaHVL.jpg)

I bought that CD some 15 years ago. Yes, Une Voix dans le Desert is great!  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 12, 2015, 11:05:57 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 07:13:45 AM

There's no meeting ground here, and there's no right answer. There is no 'best recording'. When all's done, there are only listeners attending to the music: in one case finding disappointment, and in another, an epiphany.

I completely agree with you, Elgarian!  One person's delight can be a painful listening experience to another person. Reviews and posts in GMG gives ideas and inspiration for listening to classical music, but the ultimate test is of course one's own impressions. I was also surprised to read the negative impressions of Cahill in the review, but it was still interesting in terms of the general discussion of The Spirit of England.  I posted it here more for the latter aspect rather than the Cahill "rating" as I have no anti-Cahill agenda. Actually, such contradictory reviews make me more interested in a specific recording.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 12, 2015, 11:07:57 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 12, 2015, 07:47:28 AM
I own both of these recordings and both are delightful. Granted, none of these recordings contain a major work of Elgar's but that doesn't matter as the quality of the music is still quite high and one who loves Elgar should find a lot of enjoyment here. The Starlight Express is very much a fun work and kind of takes the whole idea of The Wand of Youth Suites or The Nursery Suite and blows them up into a larger framework with added narration. It's great fun but it's not a work I return very often. I might occasionally listen to the suite that's pulled from The Starlight Express, but that's about it. As for the other recording, it's a definitely a good one and it kind of ties up some odds and ends in terms of Elgar's oeuvre. Carillion, Une Voix dans le Desert, and Le Drapeau Belge are works for narrator, soloists, and orchestra. I really haven't given these more than one listen, so I can't comment on the merits of the music nor the performances themselves. The ballet The Sanguine Fan can be found in several other recordings, but it's a fine performance nonetheless. This is a work I haven't given much thought about, so perhaps Elgarian can indulge us here?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, John. I have been pondering the Great War lately so the latter compilation of Elgar's compositions from the period is interesting to me.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 11:22:11 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 12, 2015, 08:25:10 AM
Remember it! I invented it!

Remember that time when you tried to sell buckets of it to Sarge behind the bike sheds, pretending it was 'infectious affection and twinkling bounce'? Oh those were the days, when men were men, and twinkles bounced!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 12, 2015, 11:23:40 AM
Yet higher will the twinkles bounce this year! I know the Sarge is in!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 11:24:52 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 12, 2015, 09:50:46 AM
You're back! You're back! You're back!! I missed it! I am blind! But I am happy! You have made my year :)

Now I must see what I have missed....

Do you mean Mike, or Karl? Have they been away?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 12, 2015, 11:26:53 AM
They've not chased me off, yet . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 12, 2015, 11:28:09 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 08:09:28 AM
I've nothing to contribute about The Sanguine Fan I'm afraid, but I would like to put in a good word for Une Voix dans le Desert. It's only a short piece - as MI says, a work for narrator, soloist and orchestra. But the central sung passage, which lasts about 5 minutes, is simply wonderful. It's a soprano part, emulating a girl singing from a cottage in the middle of a battlefield, very moving, very beautiful. Sad to relate, Teresa Cahill's version seems now to be effectively unavailable:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518V5plaHVL.jpg)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-War-Music-Barry-Collett/dp/B000027GPO/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1421082381&sr=1-1&keywords=elgar+war+music (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-War-Music-Barry-Collett/dp/B000027GPO/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1421082381&sr=1-1&keywords=elgar+war+music)

You certainly inspire, Elgarian!  Cahill's recordings clearly need to be reissued!  >:(
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2015, 11:42:15 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 12, 2015, 11:07:57 AM
Thanks for sharing your knowledge, John. I have been pondering the Great War lately so the latter compilation of Elgar's composition from the period is interesting to me.

I would certainly acquire them, especially since I doubt that The Starlight Express will ever receive such deluxe treatment again in the near future.
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 12, 2015, 12:23:16 PM
The Elgar/Harrison account of Elgar's Cello Concerto is a wonder - my appreciation for Elgar as a conductor grows immeasurably with each listen - that includes his recording of the Violin Concero with Menuhin, wow, great music making!
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 12, 2015, 12:30:08 PM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/12/28435d34cce36f918e804a7286b2782d.jpg)

Wow wow wow, an amazing recording of the string quartet and piano quintet!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 12, 2015, 12:38:27 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 11:24:52 AM
Do you mean Mike, or Karl? Have they been away?
Ha. I was so excited that I plum forgot to say who I was I excited to see posting (you of course)! How have the fields of Elgar been treating you? :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 12, 2015, 12:39:06 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 07, 2015, 05:34:36 PM
I'd love to read some opinions on Falstaff. What do you guys think of this work? I used to have some difficulty with it but this alleged 'difficulty' seems to have subsided thanks on account of Andrew Davis' fantastic performance with the BBC SO on Warner. Earlier today, I went back and listened to Barbirolli's only to find so much more richness in the score. I'm pretty excited about the prospect of hearing Boult conduct this work. Anyone have any favorite performances of Falstaff or interesting stories to share?
Falstaff, especially the opening section, reminds me of the opening of the second symphony - I love Barbirolli's incredible recording. I like Simon Rattle's account too. I had difficulty with it at first, but a couple years on (after clicking with the 2nd Symphony) Falstaff became accessible and is one of my favorite Elgar works.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 12, 2015, 12:43:04 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 12, 2015, 12:23:16 PM
The Elgar/Harrison account of Elgar's Cello Concerto is a wonder - my appreciation for Elgar as a conductor grows immeasurably with each listen - that includes his recording of the Violin Concero with Menuhin, wow, great music making!

Yes, the Menuhin VC was indeed a treat!  :)  I need to listen to Harrison/Elgar soon. Are you listening to the set of Elgar's electrical recordings, Leo?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 12, 2015, 12:44:02 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 12, 2015, 12:30:08 PM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/12/28435d34cce36f918e804a7286b2782d.jpg)

Wow wow wow, an amazing recording of the string quartet and piano quintet!

Temptations!!!!   :'( :'( >:D ???
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 12, 2015, 12:54:26 PM

Quote from: Moonfish on January 12, 2015, 12:43:04 PM
Yes, the Menuhin VC was indeed a treat!  :)  I need to listen to Harrison/Elgar soon. Are you listening to the set of Elgar's electrical recordings, Leo?

Yes I am, the first time with it, and I love this box!

Listening to the Falstaff recording now, it is so amazing to hear Elgar's interpretation, wow!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 01:02:42 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 12, 2015, 12:38:27 PM
How have the fields of Elgar been treating you? :)

Well, you know how it goes: ups and downs, but Elgarish things always up.

(http://images.nitrosell.com/product_images/3/725/thumb-WLA_elgar-bike-print.jpg)

I hope you're alright too, Neal?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 01:05:05 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 12, 2015, 12:30:08 PM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/12/28435d34cce36f918e804a7286b2782d.jpg)

Wow wow wow, an amazing recording of the string quartet and piano quintet!

Oh that is a lovely couple of recordings you've got there! Super performances of two of my favourite Elgar works
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 12, 2015, 01:41:45 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 12, 2015, 01:02:42 PM
Well, you know how it goes: ups and downs, but Elgarish things always up.

(http://images.nitrosell.com/product_images/3/725/thumb-WLA_elgar-bike-print.jpg)

I hope you're alright too, Neal?
Yes. Quite well!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2015, 02:17:49 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 12, 2015, 12:30:08 PM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/12/28435d34cce36f918e804a7286b2782d.jpg)

Wow wow wow, an amazing recording of the string quartet and piano quintet!

This recording came in the mail a few days ago. I have yet to give it a spin. Can't wait to hear it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2015, 09:22:10 PM
Do any of my fellow Elgarians have the John Bridcut BBC documentary on Elgar The Man Behind The Mask uploaded and saved to their computer so they can share it with me? I would be most grateful. Someone had on YouTube and it was taken down. :(
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 12, 2015, 11:10:37 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 12, 2015, 09:22:10 PM
Do any of my fellow Elgarians have the John Bridcut BBC documentary on Elgar The Man Behind The Mask uploaded and saved to their computer so they can share it with me? I would be most grateful. Someone had on YouTube and it was taken down. :(

I wish! Hopefully Bridcut's film will be officially released on DVD soon... ? Did you like Ken Russell's film?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 13, 2015, 12:30:11 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 12, 2015, 11:10:37 PM
I wish! Hopefully Bridcut's film will be officially released on DVD soon... ? Did you like Ken Russell's film?

I haven't seen Ken Russell's film but I really don't have any interest in his work. The Bridcut documentary, however, is my cup of tea and I'd love to be able to see it again.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 13, 2015, 03:13:46 PM
Curiously, Bridcut's documentaries on Delius and Vaughan Williams both are up on YouTube in their entirety.  But, alas, only the frustratingly briefest of trailers for his Elgar film. :(

https://www.youtube.com/v/b6tbjgbXP8s
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 13, 2015, 03:38:06 PM
It seems that the documentary titled Britten's Endgame (one of two Britten documentaries of Bridcut's) has been taken down as well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 13, 2015, 03:49:43 PM
How many times did Adrian Boult record the symphonies ? I see two recordings in the 30-disc box, from 1949 and 1972. If I read correctly, the Lyrita versions date from 1968. And there is a Nixa/Westminster issue from around 1956.

A lifelong Boult advocate, I have often found his pre-1955ish interpretations rather brusque and sometimes overdriven. Conversely his post-1970 recordings varied from great (Elgar) to tired (Brahms).Therefore I would surmise that the Nixa and Lyrita are likely to be candidates for best pick. Any ideas ?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 13, 2015, 03:53:19 PM
Quote from: André on January 13, 2015, 03:49:43 PM
How many times did Adrian Boult record the symphonies ? I see two recordings in the 30-disc box, from 1949 and 1972. If I read correctly, the Lyrita versions date from 1968. And there is a Nixa/Westminster issue from around 1956.

A lifelong Boult advocate, I have often found his pre-1955ish interpretations rather brusque and sometimes overdriven. Conversely his post-1970 recordings varied from great (Elgar) to tired (Brahms).Therefore I would surmise that the Nixa and Lyrita are likely to be candidates for best pick. Any ideas ?

He also recorded the two symphonies in 76/77 live with the BBC Symphony Orchestra.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 13, 2015, 05:59:49 PM
It's something of a truism that Boult generally identified more closely with Elgar's 2nd symphony than with the 1st, but my listening to various of his recordings of both symphonies over the years seems to bear this out.  On the whole, I do find his recordings of the 2nd to be more satisfying, on the whole, than those of the 1st.

In any case, there are at least six recordings by Boult of Elgar's Symphony No. 2:

BBC Symphony Orchestra, 1944   (EMI; currently available on Beulah)
LPO, 1956   (Nixa)
Scottish National Orchestra, 1963   (Waverly LP; Classics for Pleasure LP.)
LPO, 1968   (Lyrita)
LPO, 1976   (EMI)
BBC SO, 1977   (recorded live at the Proms, Royal Albert Hall; currently available on ICA)

I've heard all of these except the 1956 (Nixa).  The 1976 EMI version is usually singled out as the "default" choice.  (And it's my wife's favorite recording of this symphony.)  It's certainly not "tired"; quite the contrary--Boult manages to distill a wonderful mix of energy and wisdom.  But I'm also impressed by the 1944 performance, even though the sound leaves something to be desired.  And I would not want to be without the 1968 recording either.

(As for the 1963 SNO recording--I've only heard a rip of the LP, once; that's not enough for me to give a considered judgement of that version.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 13, 2015, 06:10:01 PM
Quote from: jfdrex on January 13, 2015, 05:59:49 PM
It's something of a truism that Boult generally identified more closely with Elgar's 2nd symphony than with the 1st, but my listening to various of his recordings of both symphonies over the years seems to bear this out.  On the whole, I do find his recordings of the 2nd to be more satisfying, on the whole, than those of the 1st.

In any case, there are at least six recordings by Boult of Elgar's Symphony No. 2:

BBC Symphony Orchestra, 1944   (EMI; currently available on Beulah)
LPO, 1956   (Nixa)
Scottish National Orchestra, 1963   (Waverly LP; Classics for Pleasure LP.)
LPO, 1968   (Lyrita)
LPO, 1976   (EMI)
BBC SO, 1977   (recorded live at the Proms, Royal Albert Hall; currently available on ICA)

I've heard all of these except the 1956 (Nixa).  The 1976 EMI version is usually singled out as the "default" choice.  (And it's my wife's favorite recording of this symphony.)  It's certainly not "tired"; quite the contrary--Boult manages to distill a wonderful mix of energy and wisdom.  But I'm also impressed by the 1944 performance, even though the sound leaves something to be desired.  And I would not want to be without the 1968 recording either.

(As for the 1963 SNO recording--I've only heard a rip of the LP, once; that's not enough for me to give a considered judgement of that version.)

Yes, it does seem that Boult had an affinity for Symphony No. 2. I just bought a set containing the 1956 Nixa-Westminster performance, so hopefully I can share my thoughts of this one soon. I know Andre can tell us a bit more about it. I seem to recall from the 'Listening' thread that he enjoyed the performance.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 13, 2015, 06:40:17 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 13, 2015, 03:53:19 PM
He also recorded the two symphonies in 76/77 live with the BBC Symphony Orchestra.

These recordings are mindblowing, especially the 1976 Elgar 1st. The 1977 suffers from bad sound, but it is still amazing and I'm glad I have it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 13, 2015, 06:45:21 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 13, 2015, 06:40:17 PM
These recordings are mindblowing, especially the 1976 Elgar 1st. The 1977 suffers from bad sound, but it is still amazing and I'm glad I have it.

Cool, Leo. 8) Have you heard the 1956 recording of the 2nd on Nixa-Westminster? I'm quite anxious to hear this one as there's so much competition even with Boult's own numerous performances.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 13, 2015, 06:48:37 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 06, 2015, 06:19:41 PM
Tonight's Elgar quota:

Elgar: The Dream of Gerontius     Nash/Ripley/Noble/Walker/Huddersfield Choral Society/Liverpool PO/Sargent

The very first recording of TDoG from April 1945.  I am getting a bit addicted to this work by now....   ;)
It is my second listen to this specific Sargent recording and I definitely prefer it to his later one. Nash's voice is wonderful as Gerontius and the performance moves forward with urgency and passion. The war was not yet over in Europe and perhaps some of the spirit of the sorrow and pain of the war effort moved into the performance?  Not in the top tier, but definitely worthwhile. The sound has a little bit lack of resolution, but it is fantastic for being a 1945 recording (really!).

[asin] B000003XKH[/asin]

Walter Essex wrote a great comparative review of TDoG... (http://www.elgar.org/3gerontr.htm)
This is a wonderful recording, I agree! I listened to this today and was caught up with the orchestral details, pacing,  and lovely turns of phrasing. Thanks for the heads up on this one.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 13, 2015, 06:50:50 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 13, 2015, 06:45:21 PM
Cool, Leo. 8) Have you heard the 1956 recording of the 2nd on Nixa-Westminster? I'm quite anxious to hear this one as there's so much competition even with Boult's own numerous performances.
That's one I don't have (yet) - I look forward to what you think about it :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 13, 2015, 11:14:17 PM
Interesting Russian version of TDoG's prelude by USSR SO/Svetlanov from 1983. I like its slow pace. Very solemn although expressing the power a bit differently! The horn section was blazing!  :P

The full recording of TDoG is being released next month in the UK on the Melodiya label (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Gerontius-Felicity-Symphony-Orchestra/dp/B00QW8CV24). Thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/v/pKBLhzxxgBc
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 13, 2015, 11:17:51 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 13, 2015, 06:48:37 PM
This is a wonderful recording, I agree! I listened to this today and was caught up with the orchestral details, pacing,  and lovely turns of phrasing. Thanks for the heads up on this one.
You're welcome! It was a delightful surprise for me as well. Definitely a rendition I will listen to over and over.  :)   How did you like the cello concerto with Tortelier?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 13, 2015, 11:46:04 PM
Has anybody here heard Batten's early abridged version of TDoG from the 1920s?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CN7AKSC8L.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 14, 2015, 01:09:57 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 12, 2015, 12:23:16 PM
The Elgar/Harrison account of Elgar's Cello Concerto is a wonder - my appreciation for Elgar as a conductor grows immeasurably with each listen - that includes his recording of the Violin Concero with Menuhin, wow, great music making!

One of my most treasured musical memories comes from an occasion, some years ago, when I was visiting Elgar's birthplace cottage. There's a room downstairs which contains Elgar's desk, a bookcase full of his books, and so on - and one of the gramophones he'd owned (dating from about 1926 I think). There's a small window overlooking the garden. I'd taken with me the Harrison/Elgar recording of the cello concerto and a pair of headphones, and I stood in that room in late afternoon and listened to it while looking out of the window, his gramophone by my side - on which Elgar himself would have listened to the same recording.

The combination of music and location was sheer magic. The elegiac character of the music and the intensely personal associations - with both Elgar and Harrison effectively there in the room with me (as far as my ears were concerned) - were overwhelming. I've listened to the recording many times, and been to Elgar's birthplace many times too, but that afternoon ... that was unforgettable, and unrepeatable.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1020084_zps1a974045.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 14, 2015, 05:06:55 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 14, 2015, 01:09:57 AM
One of my most treasured musical memories comes from an occasion, some years ago, when I was visiting Elgar's birthplace cottage. There's a room downstairs which contains Elgar's desk, a bookcase full of his books, and so on - and one of the gramophones he'd owned (dating from about 1926 I think). There's a small window overlooking the garden. I'd taken with me the Harrison/Elgar recording of the cello concerto and a pair of headphones, and I stood in that room in late afternoon and listened to it while looking out of the window, his gramophone by my side - on which Elgar himself would have listened to the same recording.

The combination of music and location was sheer magic. The elegiac character of the music and the intensely personal associations - with both Elgar and Harrison effectively there in the room with me (as far as my ears were concerned) - were overwhelming. I've listened to the recording many times, and been to Elgar's birthplace many times too, but that afternoon ... that was unforgettable, and unrepeatable.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1020084_zps1a974045.jpg)
Such a beautiful and precious memory, Elgarian! It is even magical to read!
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 14, 2015, 12:15:52 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on January 14, 2015, 01:09:57 AM
One of my most treasured musical memories comes from an occasion, some years ago, when I was visiting Elgar's birthplace cottage. There's a room downstairs which contains Elgar's desk, a bookcase full of his books, and so on - and one of the gramophones he'd owned (dating from about 1926 I think). There's a small window overlooking the garden. I'd taken with me the Harrison/Elgar recording of the cello concerto and a pair of headphones, and I stood in that room in late afternoon and listened to it while looking out of the window, his gramophone by my side - on which Elgar himself would have listened to the same recording.

The combination of music and location was sheer magic. The elegiac character of the music and the intensely personal associations - with both Elgar and Harrison effectively there in the room with me (as far as my ears were concerned) - were overwhelming. I've listened to the recording many times, and been to Elgar's birthplace many times too, but that afternoon ... that was unforgettable, and unrepeatable.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1020084_zps1a974045.jpg)

That is truly a precious memory, thank you for sharing that!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 14, 2015, 01:30:30 PM
The Dream of Gerontius is getting to me, in particular Sargent's account on EMI (1945)...wow, stunning, the themes are always running though my mind.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 14, 2015, 01:33:17 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 13, 2015, 11:17:51 PM
You're welcome! It was a delightful surprise for me as well. Definitely a rendition I will listen to over and over.  :)   How did you like the cello concerto with Tortelier?

I haven't heard the Tortelier yet but will soon :)
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 14, 2015, 04:05:07 PM
The 1976 Boult/BBC of the Elgar 1st fills me with awe, it is powerful.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 14, 2015, 09:43:59 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 14, 2015, 01:30:30 PM
The Dream of Gerontius is getting to me, in particular Sargent's account on EMI (1945)...wow, stunning, the themes are always running though my mind.

I know what you mean Leo. TDoG haunts my own mind as well, but it is a pleasant flow of music!  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 14, 2015, 09:50:58 PM
Elgar: Symphony No 1         LPO/Boult    (1968)

Symphony No 1 is seemingly getting listened to a lot lately!
Excellent performance. I can see why this recording has received accolades by the Elgarians at GMG. It is brilliant in its power and phrasing. Boult seems to start off in an unusually slow fashion but builds the phrases so beautifully as it progresses.  I have to listen to it again, but it comes across as a true gem worthy of being on the top tier of Elgar's first symphony. Beauty incarnated. Ah, the sadness and melancholy in the theme gets me each time it returns. I was definitely mesmerized by this performance!
Thanks for bringing my attention to this recording, MI/John!

Peter

[asin] B000PGTIBQ[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 15, 2015, 12:29:42 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 14, 2015, 04:05:07 PM
The 1976 Boult/BBC of the Elgar 1st fills me with awe, it is powerful.

There are bits of audience noise here and there, which might trouble some folks - but it doesn't stop it being my recording of choice.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 15, 2015, 06:20:08 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 14, 2015, 09:50:58 PM
Elgar: Symphony No 1         LPO/Boult    (1968)

Symphony No 1 is seemingly getting listened to a lot lately!
Excellent performance. I can see why this recording has received accolades by the Elgarians at GMG. It is brilliant in its power and phrasing. Boult seems to start off in an unusually slow fashion but builds the phrases so beautifully as it progresses.  I have to listen to it again, but it comes across as a true gem worthy of being on the top tier of Elgar's first symphony. Beauty incarnated. Ah, the sadness and melancholy in the theme gets me each time it returns. I was definitely mesmerized by this performance!
Thanks for bringing my attention to this recording, MI/John!

Peter

[asin] B000PGTIBQ[/asin]

You're welcome, Peter! I knew you would enjoy it. 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 15, 2015, 09:59:49 AM
Picked up this dvd recording of TDoG today. It will be interesting to "see" it after listening to a plentitude of different versions. Has anybody viewed this film?

[asin] B000G1ALG6[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 15, 2015, 10:06:53 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 12, 2015, 09:22:10 PM
Do any of my fellow Elgarians have the John Bridcut BBC documentary on Elgar The Man Behind The Mask uploaded and saved to their computer so they can share it with me? I would be most grateful. Someone had on YouTube and it was taken down. :(

John,
I just noticed that the film is available at BRO for $8.99 (http://www2.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=man+behind+mask&filter=a)!!   Go and get yourself a copy!    8)

Peter
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 15, 2015, 11:01:05 AM
I like this...

(http://www.rugusavay.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Edward-Elgar-Quotes-3.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 15, 2015, 11:06:38 AM
Elgar: The Dream of Gerontius     Nash/Ripley/Noble/Walker/Huddersfield Choral Society/Liverpool PO/Sargent

Ahh, I couldn't help myself. I had to hear Sargent ('45) once more....   *deep sigh of satisfaction*
The sound could be a little bit better, but I am not complaining. I think the performance is marvelous!

[asin] B000003XKH[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 15, 2015, 01:08:31 PM
Elgar: Cello Concerto      Beatrice Harrison/New Symphony Orchestra/Elgar  (1928)

Definitely a magical top tier performance from Harrison! From now on this one will live next to my du Pré/Barbirolli recording! I was quite surprised at how good the sound was as this is a 1928 recording (it sounds more like a decent 50s one). Regardless, Harrison's playing was mesmerizing, graceful, vibrant and it certainly weaved an Elgarian incantation as the concerto progressed. I am so happy that you suggested this performance, Elgarian.  Thank you! It is a gem! 

The photo below was taken at the recording of the cello concerto!!!
Erratum: The photo was taken during a different recording in November 1920.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Elgar-Beatrice-Harrison-HMV-November1920.jpg)

from
[asin] B004MSRDK6[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 15, 2015, 02:30:06 PM
Re. John Birdcut's film Elgar: The Man Behind the Mask -- I've just discovered this print interview:

http://www.musicfilmweb.com/2010/11/john-bridcut-behind-elgars-mask/ (http://www.musicfilmweb.com/2010/11/john-bridcut-behind-elgars-mask/)

This comment in particular caught my attention:

"One of the pieces we feature in the film is Sospiri, which is a very short piece, not at all well known. But it's the most Mahlerian piece that he ever wrote. It's incredibly anguished and full of longing"


Indeed it is.  In fact, I've long thought of Sospiri as Elgar's "counterpart," if you will, to the Adagietto of Mahler's Fifth Symphony.  But, as far as I can recall, I had not heard or read of anyone else remarking on this similarity.  Surely other listeners, musicians, and critics must have been struck by the similarities between these two pieces.

An intriguing coincidence: Henry Wood conducted the English premiere of the adagietto of the Mahler Fifth in 1909.  (The full symphony was not performed in England until 1945.)  And Wood conducted the premiere of Sospiri some five years later (15 August 1914).  Did he make a connection between the two works, I wonder.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 15, 2015, 05:43:22 PM
It is a quite wonderful performance. Not my favourite - because the score demands high quality stereophonic sound - but great performances all the same from all concerned.

Coincidentally, the mailman just delivered the Andrew Davis version (not the St-Paul's Cathedral issue, but the Chandos studio one).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 15, 2015, 05:57:56 PM
Quote from: André on January 15, 2015, 05:43:22 PM
It is a quite wonderful performance. Not my favourite - because the score demands high quality stereophonic sound - but great performances all the same from all concerned.

Coincidentally, the mailman just delivered the Andrew Davis version (not the St-Paul's Cathedral issue, but the Chandos studio one).

I use my mono-ears!  ;)   

Ahh, yes, the Davis TDoG! It is tempting to click on the button....   :-\

(http://sleazefreeselling.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Buy-now-with-1-click.gif)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 15, 2015, 06:16:40 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 15, 2015, 10:06:53 AM
John,
I just noticed that the film is available at BRO for $8.99 (http://www2.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=man+behind+mask&filter=a)!!   Go and get yourself a copy!    8)

Peter

But it's a DVD-R and not a legitimate commercial release. :) Thanks anyway, Peter.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 15, 2015, 10:32:22 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 15, 2015, 06:16:40 PM
But it's a DVD-R and not a legitimate commercial release. :) Thanks anyway, Peter.

Wonder why BRO are selling them if they are not legitimate releases?   ???
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 15, 2015, 10:34:04 PM
Anybody familiar with the upcoming re-release of the Svetlanov recording of TDoG (1983)?

[asin] B00QW8CV24[/asin]

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61whXlC1CfL.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 16, 2015, 12:59:09 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 15, 2015, 01:08:31 PM
Elgar: Cello Concerto      Beatrice Harrison/New Symphony Orchestra/Elgar  (1928)

Definitely a magical top tier performance from Harrison! From now on this one will live next to my du Pré/Barbirolli recording! I was quite surprised at how good the sound was as this is a 1928 recording (it sounds more like a decent 50s one). Regardless, Harrison's playing was mesmerizing, graceful, vibrant and it certainly weaved an Elgarian incantation as the concerto progressed. I am so happy that you suggested this performance, Elgarian.  Thank you! It is a gem! 

The photo below was taken at the recording of the cello concerto!!!

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Elgar-Beatrice-Harrison-HMV-November1920.jpg)

I am not absolutely certain about these things without going off to check, but I think this particular photo was taken during the first recording they made of the cello concerto (an abridged version) about 1920-ish, which was an acoustic recording, not an electrical one.

There is a box of Elgar's acoustic recordings available, but I find listening to them is hard work. Still, it is a shock to hear Marie Hall playing the (abridged) violin concerto in 1916, and be made startlingly aware of the difference in style of playing at that time.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 16, 2015, 04:53:55 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 16, 2015, 12:59:09 AM
I am not absolutely certain about these things without going off to check, but I think this particular photo was taken during the first recording they made of the cello concerto (an abridged version) about 1920-ish, which was an acoustic recording, not an electrical one.

There is a box of Elgar's acoustic recordings available, but I find listening to them is hard work. Still, it is a shock to hear Marie Hall playing the (abridged) violin concerto in 1916, and be made startlingly aware of the difference in style of playing at that time.

Ah, you are right Elgarian! I checked the date for the image and it is from November 1920!!!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 16, 2015, 05:03:54 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 15, 2015, 10:34:04 PM
Anybody familiar with the upcoming re-release of the Svetlanov recording of TDoG (1983)?

[asin] B00QW8CV24[/asin]

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61whXlC1CfL.jpg)
Interesting! Hickox was conducting the chorus? Even more interesting...

A comparative review here: http://www.elgar.org/3gerontr.htm#disco (http://www.elgar.org/3gerontr.htm#disco)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 16, 2015, 05:08:32 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 15, 2015, 10:34:04 PM
Anybody familiar with the upcoming re-release of the Svetlanov recording of TDoG (1983)?

[asin] B00QW8CV24[/asin]

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61whXlC1CfL.jpg)

I've read about this recording, but this is the first time I've ever seen it listed for sale in the West.  A quick search on YouTube revealed two substantial excerpts (transferred from LP) ~ the Prelude and the Angel's Farewell ("Softly and gently...").

https://www.youtube.com/v/pKBLhzxxgBc

https://www.youtube.com/v/pql5mIqXfBM

It's interesting to learn that Svetlanov's fascination with The Dream of Gerontius dates from the early 1960s, when he heard Sargent conduct it in London, but that wasn't able to conduct it himself until 1983.

Do you know Svetlanov's recording of the Symphony No. 2 and Sea Pictures (sung in Russian by soprano [!] Larisa Avdeyeva, aka Mrs Svetlanov)!  Well worth hearing for a very different (non-British, non-traditional, very Svetlanovian) take on these works.

[asin]B0009JR8LQ[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 16, 2015, 05:22:53 AM
Two more excerpts from Svetlanov's recording of The Dream of Gerontius:

https://www.youtube.com/v/7dGsrozdyow

https://www.youtube.com/v/5uKOX0Q3yhk
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 16, 2015, 06:32:18 AM
Svetlanov in Gerontius? That should be interesting. He's such an awesome conductor, but I only know his recordings of Russian music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 16, 2015, 06:35:02 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 15, 2015, 10:32:22 PM
Wonder why BRO are selling them if they are not legitimate releases?   ???

I'm not sure, but my suggestion to them would be to not sell them at all UNLESS the company who made the DVD-R and BRO have permission from Bridcut himself to distribute such a product.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 16, 2015, 06:48:46 AM
Quote from: jfdrex on January 16, 2015, 05:08:32 AM
I've read about this recording, but this is the first time I've ever seen it listed for sale in the West.  A quick search on YouTube revealed two substantial excerpts (transferred from LP) ~ the Prelude and the Angel's Farewell ("Softly and gently...").


It's interesting to learn that Svetlanov's fascination with The Dream of Gerontius dates from the early 1960s, when he heard Sargent conduct it in London, but that wasn't able to conduct it himself until 1983.

Do you know Svetlanov's recording of the Symphony No. 2 and Sea Pictures (sung in Russian by soprano [!] Larisa Avdeyeva, aka Mrs Svetlanov)!  Well worth hearing for a very different (non-British, non-traditional, very Svetlanovian) take on these works.

[asin]B0009JR8LQ[/asin]

I was not familiar with Svetlanov's recording of the 2nd symphony. I presume it has more of a Russian feel (brass and pace)?
The YouTube samples definitely make Svetlanov's TDoG appealing....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on January 16, 2015, 10:14:24 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 16, 2015, 05:03:54 AM
Interesting! Hickox was conducting the chorus? Even more interesting...

A comparative review here: http://www.elgar.org/3gerontr.htm#disco (http://www.elgar.org/3gerontr.htm#disco)

Interesting, reading that detailed piece on the then recordings. Taking up the point of two conductors in the Russian version, this is something I once experienced in the Verdi Requiem. Abbado had brought the chorus director of La Scala along and he was to be our conductor within the performance. We only had two rehearsals and frankly we ignored him as a distraction and watched Abbado. Seemingly this is a regular arrangement in Italy. But we could not get the hang of it in such a short period. I do remember the guy emoting like mad at us. During the performances he was placed where we could see him. Athough it has been issued on DVD, the extra wheel remains invisible on the film and I don't think he took a bow. We worked a number of times with Abbado, Lohengrin and then Berlioz Te Deum and St Matthew Passion plus one or two others. But this was the only occasion on which he introduced this practice and I suspect it was because it was Verdi.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 16, 2015, 12:47:12 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 16, 2015, 06:48:46 AM
I was not familiar with Svetlanov's recording of the 2nd symphony. I presume it has more of a Russian feel (brass and pace)?

You presume correctly! And then some! ;D

David Hurwitz castigates it as a "CD from Hell", and Ralph Moore gives it a one-star review on Amazon.uk:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pictures-Symphony-Svetlanov-USSR-State/dp/B000198AF2 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pictures-Symphony-Svetlanov-USSR-State/dp/B000198AF2)

The Gramophone reviewer was more charitable:

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/elgar-sea-pictures-symphony-no-2?utm_expid=32540977-3.FNZqseMjTvyRLIewfMgTiA.0&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Delgar%2Bsvetlanov%2Bscribendum%26pc%3DMOZI%26form%3DMOZSBR (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/elgar-sea-pictures-symphony-no-2?utm_expid=32540977-3.FNZqseMjTvyRLIewfMgTiA.0&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Delgar%2Bsvetlanov%2Bscribendum%26pc%3DMOZI%26form%3DMOZSBR)

Perhaps I'm more tolerant than some listeners when it comes to odd/offbeat interpretations of Elgar; I found it quite fascinating if not at all idiomatic.  It's worth hearing, though certainly not at the price currently asked on Amazon.uk.  (It seems to be out of print and hard to find except at exorbitant prices.  I purchased my copy from BRO several years ago.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 16, 2015, 05:39:59 PM
I received my copy of the Andrew Davis Gerontius yesterday. Coupled w. Sea Pictures. 2-disc set on Chandos. Can't wait for the right time-occasion-frameofmind  :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 16, 2015, 05:51:08 PM
Quote from: André on January 16, 2015, 05:39:59 PM
I received my copy of the Andrew Davis Gerontius yesterday. Coupled w. Sea Pictures. 2-disc set on Chandos. Can't wait for the right time-occasion-frameofmind  :D

Please let us know what you think of the performances, Andre!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 16, 2015, 07:02:10 PM
Quote from: jfdrex on January 16, 2015, 12:47:12 PM
You presume correctly! And then some! ;D

David Hurwitz castigates it as a "CD from Hell", and Ralph Moore gives it a one-star review on Amazon.uk:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pictures-Symphony-Svetlanov-USSR-State/dp/B000198AF2 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pictures-Symphony-Svetlanov-USSR-State/dp/B000198AF2)

The Gramophone reviewer was more charitable:

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/elgar-sea-pictures-symphony-no-2?utm_expid=32540977-3.FNZqseMjTvyRLIewfMgTiA.0&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Delgar%2Bsvetlanov%2Bscribendum%26pc%3DMOZI%26form%3DMOZSBR (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/elgar-sea-pictures-symphony-no-2?utm_expid=32540977-3.FNZqseMjTvyRLIewfMgTiA.0&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Delgar%2Bsvetlanov%2Bscribendum%26pc%3DMOZI%26form%3DMOZSBR)

Perhaps I'm more tolerant than some listeners when it comes to odd/offbeat interpretations of Elgar; I found it quite fascinating if not at all idiomatic.  It's worth hearing, though certainly not at the price currently asked on Amazon.uk.  (It seems to be out of print and hard to find except at exorbitant prices.  I purchased my copy from BRO several years ago.)

A "cd from hell" is quite extreme. Hmm, now I wonder what that would sound like!  ;)     
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 16, 2015, 07:03:07 PM
Quote from: André on January 16, 2015, 05:39:59 PM
I received my copy of the Andrew Davis Gerontius yesterday. Coupled w. Sea Pictures. 2-disc set on Chandos. Can't wait for the right time-occasion-frameofmind  :D

Yes, I understand that aspect very well. It is sometimes hard to find those quiet retrospective moments in life. Enjoy Davis' TDoG!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 16, 2015, 07:15:43 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 16, 2015, 07:02:10 PM
A "cd from hell" is quite extreme. Hmm, now I wonder what that would sound like!  ;)     

There's always room for different interpretations even if we don't necessarily like the results. I would have liked to have heard Svetlanov conduct some Walton or Britten!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 17, 2015, 06:42:45 AM
Quote from: jfdrex on January 16, 2015, 12:47:12 PM
David Hurwitz castigates it as a "CD from Hell"

Quote from: Moonfish on January 16, 2015, 07:02:10 PM
A "cd from hell" is quite extreme. Hmm, now I wonder what that would sound like!  ;)     

Hurwitz actually likes the Sea Pictures:

The Sea Pictures fares better than the symphony[...]We also get an encore of "Where Corals Lie," and frankly mezzo soprano Larisa Avdejeva deserves it. She has the typical Slavic vibrato to her voice, but she flings herself at the music with fearless abandon[...]Next to this the contained dignity of Janet Baker sounds positively lobotomized. The sour brass intonation in the final bar also adds a "distinctive" touch.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 17, 2015, 08:32:18 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 17, 2015, 06:42:45 AM
Hurwitz actually likes the Sea Pictures:

The Sea Pictures fares better than the symphony[...]We also get an encore of "Where Corals Lie," and frankly mezzo soprano Larisa Avdejeva deserves it. She has the typical Slavic vibrato to her voice, but she flings herself at the music with fearless abandon[...]Next to this the contained dignity of Janet Baker sounds positively lobotomized. The sour brass intonation in the final bar also adds a "distinctive" touch.

Sarge

Thanks for quoting the review, Sarge.  I hadn't actually read the the full review, as it was one of those available to "Insiders Only" (i.e., paid subscribers to the website).  I'm not an Insider, just a freeloading Outsider. ;D

The "CD from Hell" designation seems to be a classification that Hurwitz gives to recordings he really, really, really detests.  But those reviews are all hidden behind the pay-wall.  No doubt that's part of the teaser as far as DH is concerned:  "This CD is so awful that you'll want to pay to read how truly awful it is." :D
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 18, 2015, 11:20:15 AM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/18/e72f605771c13c885b5ad3e2b586eeea.jpg)

This box is such a treasure - the symphonies are a revelation! The sound is so clear, the details so gripping on the ear, the phrasing and tempo relationships so exciting!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 18, 2015, 11:45:50 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 18, 2015, 11:20:15 AM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/18/e72f605771c13c885b5ad3e2b586eeea.jpg)

This box is such a treasure - the symphonies are a revelation! The sound is so clear, the details so gripping on the ear, the phrasing and tempo relationships so exciting!

A wonderful Elgar legacy!  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Daverz on January 18, 2015, 12:20:38 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 16, 2015, 06:32:18 AM
Svetlanov in Gerontius? That should be interesting. He's such an awesome conductor, but I only know his recordings of Russian music.

Is it sung in Russian?  That would be one way to avoid the religious cheese of the English libretto.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 18, 2015, 01:22:43 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 18, 2015, 11:45:50 AM
A wonderful Elgar legacy!  :)

I bought that set in its lp incarnation when it came out about 30 years ago. Cost me dear, dear money at the time. For the life of me I can't recall any sonic felicities from those discs. I am surprised and intrigued. Should I cast my net to include it ?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 18, 2015, 02:29:50 PM
Quote from: André on January 18, 2015, 01:22:43 PM
I bought that set in its lp incarnation when it came out about 30 years ago. Cost me dear, dear money at the time. For the life of me I can't recall any sonic felicities from those discs. I am surprised and intrigued. Should I cast my net to include it ?
EMI did a stellar job with this set, the sound is full, detailed and open, incredible for its age.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 18, 2015, 02:42:45 PM
Quote from: André on January 18, 2015, 01:22:43 PM
I bought that set in its lp incarnation when it came out about 30 years ago. Cost me dear, dear money at the time. For the life of me I can't recall any sonic felicities from those discs. I am surprised and intrigued. Should I cast my net to include it ?

I think the sound engineering is almost unbelievably high in quality considering the age of the recordings. Most likely required if one enjoys the magic of Elgar's music!  0:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 18, 2015, 02:57:53 PM
Elgar:
Sospiri
Elegy for Strings
Academy of St Martin in the Fields/Marriner


I am certain that there must be better renditions of these two short pieces, but the music itself was mesmerizing. Both of them are beautiful although Sospiri stood out as a brilliant shining gem of interwoven notes. I must admit that I was quite taken aback by its intrinsic beauty. Perhaps I am beginning to be a bit biased in regards to Elgar but Sospiri is a piece I could listen to over and over for the rest of my life. Exquisite!  0:)
The Elegy for Strings does not fall far behind in its own auditory wonder.

from
[asin] B0000759Y6[/asin]

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on January 18, 2015, 03:14:45 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 18, 2015, 02:57:53 PM
Elgar:
Sospiri
Elegy for Strings
Academy of St Martin in the Fields/Marriner


I am certain that there must be better renditions of these two short pieces, but the music itself was mesmerizing. Both of them are beautiful although Sospiri stood out as a brilliant shining gem of interwoven notes. I must admit that I was quite taken aback by its intrinsic beauty. Perhaps I am beginning to be a bit biased in regards to Elgar but Sospiri is a piece I could listen to over and over for the rest of my life. Exquisite!  0:)
The Elegy for Strings does not fall far behind in its own auditory wonder.

from
Agreed, Peter, those are wonderful pieces. Particularly Sospiri. I don't know other recordings, but I really like Andrew Davis' rendition.

[asin]B0009VYP92[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 18, 2015, 07:38:27 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 18, 2015, 02:57:53 PM
Elgar:
Sospiri
Elegy for Strings
Academy of St Martin in the Fields/Marriner


I am certain that there must be better renditions of these two short pieces, but the music itself was mesmerizing. Both of them are beautiful although Sospiri stood out as a brilliant shining gem of interwoven notes. I must admit that I was quite taken aback by its intrinsic beauty. Perhaps I am beginning to be a bit biased in regards to Elgar but Sospiri is a piece I could listen to over and over for the rest of my life. Exquisite!  0:)
The Elegy for Strings does not fall far behind in its own auditory wonder.

from
[asin] B0000759Y6[/asin]

Yes, Sospiri is a gorgeous work. In its short duration, it seems to be a sort of musical footnote. He got to the essence of himself, laid it out there completely bare, and channeled his pain, grief, fears, hopes, and dreams as a human being to the listener in such a compelling and honest way. One of my favorite performances is with Barbirolli.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 19, 2015, 12:27:36 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 18, 2015, 11:20:15 AM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/18/e72f605771c13c885b5ad3e2b586eeea.jpg)

This box is such a treasure - the symphonies are a revelation! The sound is so clear, the details so gripping on the ear, the phrasing and tempo relationships so exciting!

And as if that were not enough ... it's him! The nearest we can get to a conversation with Elgar (admittedly rather one sided) about his works.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 19, 2015, 08:05:50 AM
Quote from: North Star on January 18, 2015, 03:14:45 PM
Agreed, Peter, those are wonderful pieces. Particularly Sospiri. I don't know other recordings, but I really like Andrew Davis' rendition.

[asin]B0009VYP92[/asin]


Hmm, yes, I definitely need to listen to Davis as well as Barbiroll's versions of these pieces.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 19, 2015, 08:06:47 AM
Elgar: Symphony No 1      Philharmonia O/Barbirolli

Last night I began my "Barbirollization"....   0:)

[asin] B00000DOBZ[/asin]

from
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oiS5FA5hL.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 19, 2015, 09:01:37 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 19, 2015, 08:06:47 AM
Elgar: Symphony No 1      Philharmonia O/Barbirolli

Last night I began my "Barbirollization"....   0:)

[asin] B00000DOBZ[/asin]

from
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oiS5FA5hL.jpg)

And? Tell us what you think, Moonfish. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 19, 2015, 09:24:53 AM
Yesterday I listenend to the new 2 disc set of Sea Pictures cum Dream of Gerontius on the Chandos label. Solists are Sarah Connolly (Pics & Dream), Stuart Skelton and David Soar. Conductor: Sir Andrew Davis.

No caveats for the Sea Pictures, except that I miss the unique timbre of Janet Baker. Wonderful interpretation and realization.

After a single airing I am of two minds concerning Gerontius. The recording is amazingly lifelike and endowed with a wonderful dynamic range. Everything is efforlessly handled, nothing is missed or slighted soundwise. Similarly, the vocalism of the three principals is wonderful. Connolly brings back - but does not efface - memories of Baker, although Felicity Palmer is even more gloriously abandoned in her ecstatic final Alleluia. Bass David Soar is easily the star of the show here. if that can be said of his stern, unglamorous roles (those of the Priest and Angel of Agony). Magnificent bass range, smooth vocalism, dignified singing. The best of the lot along with Robert Lloyd.

Tenor Stuart Skelton is supposed to be a heldentenor. I can hear that in the voice. I have a couple of problems with his beautiful organ. First, it sounds healthy and young. Everybody minimally versed in etymology knows that Gerontius belongs to the category of the very old (gerontology, gerontocracy, etc). Also, he is dying. It's true that the part demands a strong, steady voice. But some element of frailty or 'experience' must be heard. Arthur Davies and esp. Nicolaï Gedda and Jon Vickers seem perfect to me. Some strain must make its way in the vocal fabric. The second problem I have is that there does not seem to be any anguish in his portrayal of the Soul about to meet his Creator. Eagerness, yes. Confidence even. I prefer to hear unease make its way gradually in this infinitely dramatic section. His final cry of 'Take me away' is breathtaking in its power and beauty.

Davis' pacing is patient and steady. This is the element I am most eager to analyse upon further hearings. That first exposure was more of a mise en place designed to identify and place signposts in the score before going for the real, defining listening experience.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 19, 2015, 09:36:33 AM
Thanks for the feedback, Andre. There seems to always be a problem accepting other performances of Sea Pictures and I'm certainly guilty of it as well as I believe Janet Baker became that work and gave the performance of a lifetime, but I'm curious to hear Connolly's interpretation. As for Gerontius, I'm sure Andrew Davis is in top-form as he is in Elgar in general. Very anxious to hear these performances.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on January 19, 2015, 12:44:35 PM
      http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10121.msg254182/topicseen.html#msg254182 

Here is my review of the Elder version, the best I know of subsequent to the Elder Barbirolli one. I am curious to hear the new Davis one, I will wait until I can find it at a bargain price.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 20, 2015, 06:48:47 AM
It makes this ol' boy proud to see Moonfish become Barbirollized. 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 20, 2015, 10:20:33 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 20, 2015, 06:48:47 AM
It makes this ol' boy proud to see Moonfish become Barbirollized. 8)

Yes, it happens to everybody sooner or later, right?         Right.....???   ::)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 20, 2015, 10:23:37 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 20, 2015, 10:20:33 AM
Yes, it happens to everybody sooner or later, right?         Right.....???   ::)

Well for us Elgarians it certainly does. ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 20, 2015, 01:35:13 PM
I suspect most people start their Elgarian journey with the Enigma Variations or the Cello Concerto or the Pomp and Circumstance Marches.  But for me, it was the Seraphim LP release of that Barbirolli/Philharmonia recording of the First Symphony--my first purchase of a recording of anything by Elgar, some forty years ago.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Xaquva-TL._SS500_.jpg)

And of course, I later obtained the same recording on CD.

It occurs to me now that this was a rather unusual recording with which to start an Elgar collection that now numbers in the hundreds of CDs in addition to the few dozen Elgarian LPs I acquired in the 1970s and '80s.  Moreover, I bought that LP without ever having heard the symphony; I can't really think what possessed me at the time, except that I was intrigued by the thought of an early 20th century romantic symphony that occupied an entire LP.

Come to think of it, this must have been the first Barbirolli recording I ever purchased.  But it most certainly was not the last.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 20, 2015, 01:42:50 PM
Quote from: jfdrex on January 20, 2015, 01:35:13 PM
I suspect most people start their Elgarian journey with the Enigma Variations or the Cello Concerto or the Pomp and Circumstance Marches.  But for me, it was the Seraphim LP release of that Barbirolli/Philharmonia recording of the First Symphony--my first purchase of a recording of anything by Elgar, some forty years ago.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Xaquva-TL._SS500_.jpg)

And of course, I later obtained the same recording on CD.

It occurs to me now that this was a rather unusual recording with which to start an Elgar collection that now numbers in the hundreds of CDs in addition to the few dozen Elgarian LPs I acquired in the 1970s and '80s.  Moreover, I bought that LP without ever having heard the symphony; I can't really think what possessed me at the time, except that I was intrigued by the thought of an early 20th century romantic symphony that occupied an entire LP.

Come to think of it, this must have been the first Barbirolli recording I ever purchased.  But it most certainly was not the last.

This very performance was my introduction to the world of Elgar as well. I had actually bought the Barbiolli box set (in it's older incarnation) and never looked back really. For some people, Elgar was an instant connection, for others, like myself, it took some time to appreciate his music and I did a lot of research/reading about his life. It just took time to understand the complexity of his character, but I'm certainly glad I gave his music an opportunity to grab me. It's been a rewarding musical journey so far.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 21, 2015, 02:03:14 PM
Elgar: Symphony No 2            Hallé Orchestra/Barbirolli

Magnificent performance! I have listened to the Second symphony several times over the last few days and as always with Elgar's music it is becoming more of a musical gem than I could have ever imagined. This recording is rich and vibrant. The symphony truly comes alive with Hallé/Barbirolli. I am especially fond of the 2nd movement that truly becomes a breathing living beast as it develops. One can almost sense the music as a living being. I love the movement! I am less fond of the 3rd movement with its more chaotic themes (in my ears), but it is growing on me as well.
For some reason I sense a strong connection with Sibelius' symphonies the more I listen to the 2nd symphony. Not continuously, but many of the haunting themes seem related. Has anybody else sensed that auditory connection? Regardless, I would have a hard time to choose between the 1st and 2nd symphony if I could only bring one of them to my desert island.  It is great getting more familiar with Barbirolli's Elgar recordings.

[asin] B00000DOCU[/asin]

from
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oiS5FA5hL.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 21, 2015, 04:54:48 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 21, 2015, 02:03:14 PM
Elgar: Symphony No 2            Hallé Orchestra/Barbirolli

Magnificent performance! I have listened to the Second symphony several times over the last few days and as always with Elgar's music it is becoming more of a musical gem than I could have ever imagined. This recording is rich and vibrant. The symphony truly comes alive with Hallé/Barbirolli. I am especially fond of the 2nd movement that truly becomes a breathing living beast as it develops. One can almost sense the music as a living being. I love the movement! I am less fond of the 3rd movement with its more chaotic themes (in my ears), but it is growing on me as well.
For some reason I sense a strong connection with Sibelius' symphonies the more I listen to the 2nd symphony. Not continuously, but many of the haunting themes seem related. Has anybody else sensed that auditory connection? Regardless, I would have a hard time to choose between the 1st and 2nd symphony if I could only bring one of them to my desert island.  It is great getting more familiar with Barbirolli's Elgar recordings.

[asin] B00000DOCU[/asin]

from
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oiS5FA5hL.jpg)

Moonfish, that's a wonderful response to this symphony and to Barbirolli's performance.

As you doubtless know, whereas Elgar's First Symphony met with almost instant acclaim, the reception of the Second Symphony, for various reasons, was rather more muted, and Elgar considered the work a failure--or, at least, considered the public's reaction to the work indicative of some failing on his part as well as theirs.  (To Henry Wood immediately after the premiere:  "Henry, they don't like it, they don't like it"  To W. H. Reed:  "They [i.e., the audience] sit there like a lot of stuffed pigs.")

I can see where you are coming from in your reaction to the third movement.  It is intense (like much of Elgar's music), and has very definite moments of violence.  Elgar himself wrote that this movement represented "the madness that attends the excess or abuse of passion," and cited a passage from Tennyson's poem Maude in which the hero imagines his corpse lying in his grave:  "...the hoofs of the horses beat, beat into my scalp and brain..."

I was just reading a bit of the poem and discovered an explicit "windflower" connection that Elgar, although he does not quote it, in his knowing and subtle way certainly would have been aware of and, with his love of puzzles and enigmas, surely must have meant to be implicit in the music:

"The fault was mine, the fault was mine"—   
Why am I sitting here so stunn'd and still,   
Plucking the harmless wild-flower on the hill?—   
It is this guilty hand!—   
And there rises ever a passionate cry
From underneath in the darkening land—   
What is it, that has been done?


I'm intrigued that you hear a connection with Sibelius; I'd never considered that myself.  Personally, I find a similarity between the slow movement of this symphony and the Adagio of Bruckner's Seventh Symphony.  Both are expressions of heartbreak, and Elgar's oboe lament parallels Bruckner's solo flute.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 21, 2015, 05:36:22 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 21, 2015, 02:03:14 PM
Elgar: Symphony No 2            Hallé Orchestra/Barbirolli

Magnificent performance! I have listened to the Second symphony several times over the last few days and as always with Elgar's music it is becoming more of a musical gem than I could have ever imagined. This recording is rich and vibrant. The symphony truly comes alive with Hallé/Barbirolli. I am especially fond of the 2nd movement that truly becomes a breathing living beast as it develops. One can almost sense the music as a living being. I love the movement! I am less fond of the 3rd movement with its more chaotic themes (in my ears), but it is growing on me as well.
For some reason I sense a strong connection with Sibelius' symphonies the more I listen to the 2nd symphony. Not continuously, but many of the haunting themes seem related. Has anybody else sensed that auditory connection? Regardless, I would have a hard time to choose between the 1st and 2nd symphony if I could only bring one of them to my desert island.  It is great getting more familiar with Barbirolli's Elgar recordings.

[asin] B00000DOCU[/asin]

from
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oiS5FA5hL.jpg)

Very nice response, Moonfish. My feelings about Symphony No. 2 have been well documented on this thread, so I won't reiterate them but let me just give a thumbs up to Barbirolli. I just knew you would would succumb to these magnificent performances. I do love Boult a lot as well. Do give Slatkin's Elgar a listen at some point. I was very surprised by his performances.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 21, 2015, 08:49:50 PM
Quote from: jfdrex on January 21, 2015, 04:54:48 PM
Moonfish, that's a wonderful response to this symphony and to Barbirolli's performance.

As you doubtless know, whereas Elgar's First Symphony met with almost instant acclaim, the reception of the Second Symphony, for various reasons, was rather more muted, and Elgar considered the work a failure--or, at least, considered the public's reaction to the work indicative of some failing on his part as well as theirs.  (To Henry Wood immediately after the premiere:  "Henry, they don't like it, they don't like it"  To W. H. Reed:  "They [i.e., the audience] sit there like a lot of stuffed pigs.")

I can see where you are coming from in your reaction to the third movement.  It is intense (like much of Elgar's music), and has very definite moments of violence.  Elgar himself wrote that this movement represented "the madness that attends the excess or abuse of passion," and cited a passage from Tennyson's poem Maude in which the hero imagines his corpse lying in his grave:  "...the hoofs of the horses beat, beat into my scalp and brain..."

I was just reading a bit of the poem and discovered an explicit "windflower" connection that Elgar, although he does not quote it, in his knowing and subtle way certainly would have been aware of and, with his love of puzzles and enigmas, surely must have meant to be implicit in the music:

“The fault was mine, the fault was mine”—
Why am I sitting here so stunn’d and still,
Plucking the harmless wild-flower on the hill?—
It is this guilty hand!—
And there rises ever a passionate cry
From underneath in the darkening land—
What is it, that has been done?


I'm intrigued that you hear a connection with Sibelius; I'd never considered that myself.  Personally, I find a similarity between the slow movement of this symphony and the Adagio of Bruckner's Seventh Symphony.  Both are expressions of heartbreak, and Elgar's oboe lament parallels Bruckner's solo flute.
Great post there, thanks!

And Moonfish, I too have been listening to the 2nd over and over, different performances. Glad you love the Barbirolli! I'll have to revisit him soon!
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 21, 2015, 08:54:07 PM
By the way, I think of Schumann sometimes when I hear the 2nd.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 21, 2015, 10:20:30 PM
Quote from: jfdrex on January 21, 2015, 04:54:48 PM
Moonfish, that's a wonderful response to this symphony and to Barbirolli's performance.

As you doubtless know, whereas Elgar's First Symphony met with almost instant acclaim, the reception of the Second Symphony, for various reasons, was rather more muted, and Elgar considered the work a failure--or, at least, considered the public's reaction to the work indicative of some failing on his part as well as theirs.  (To Henry Wood immediately after the premiere:  "Henry, they don't like it, they don't like it"  To W. H. Reed:  "They [i.e., the audience] sit there like a lot of stuffed pigs.")

I can see where you are coming from in your reaction to the third movement.  It is intense (like much of Elgar's music), and has very definite moments of violence.  Elgar himself wrote that this movement represented "the madness that attends the excess or abuse of passion," and cited a passage from Tennyson's poem Maude in which the hero imagines his corpse lying in his grave:  "...the hoofs of the horses beat, beat into my scalp and brain..."

I was just reading a bit of the poem and discovered an explicit "windflower" connection that Elgar, although he does not quote it, in his knowing and subtle way certainly would have been aware of and, with his love of puzzles and enigmas, surely must have meant to be implicit in the music:

"The fault was mine, the fault was mine"—   
Why am I sitting here so stunn'd and still,   
Plucking the harmless wild-flower on the hill?—   
It is this guilty hand!—   
And there rises ever a passionate cry
From underneath in the darkening land—   
What is it, that has been done?


I'm intrigued that you hear a connection with Sibelius; I'd never considered that myself.  Personally, I find a similarity between the slow movement of this symphony and the Adagio of Bruckner's Seventh Symphony.  Both are expressions of heartbreak, and Elgar's oboe lament parallels Bruckner's solo flute.

Thank you jfdrex
It is quite enjoyable to ponder a piece of music that is becoming special in one's mind's eye.

It is interesting that Elgar was so concerned about how the audience responded to his works. Sometimes it seems as if artists could care less. Perhaps he wanted strongly to connect to people (or the human condition) through his music? However, referring to the audience as "stuffed pigs" perhaps negates such an hypothesis?

Lovely quote from Tennyson. I was not aware about Elgar's poetic focal point in the 3rd movement. It seems as if your "windflower" fits very well into the emotional turmoil of the music. Its numerous oscillations in power and jagged edges links well to "the abuse of passion". However, the image of the man plucking the windflower as he contemplates his passion (or a past event) is intriguing. Besides, it makes one want to read more of Tennyson's words.

As you mentioned Bruckner's 7th I can sense that connection as well in the emotional turmoil. Perhaps the common theme we sense (Elgar - Sibelius - Bruckner) is the transformation of an orchestra performing to fragments of "living" music, i.e. the music comes alive? Bruckner also seems to have these cumulative themes that build, dissipate and return in unexpected ways: tidal waves of emotions running through the work.

Peter
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 21, 2015, 10:21:46 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 21, 2015, 08:49:50 PM
Great post there, thanks!

And Moonfish, I too have been listening to the 2nd over and over, different performances. Glad you love the Barbirolli! I'll have to revisit him soon!


Thanks, Leo!

Indeed, so many versions. I was not too thrilled hearing Solti's 2nd the other week (but I will return). Barbirolli's rendition was a pleasure to visit!!!!

Peter
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 21, 2015, 10:25:30 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 21, 2015, 05:36:22 PM
Very nice response, Moonfish. My feelings about Symphony No. 2 have been well documented on this thread, so I won't reiterate them but let me just give a thumbs up to Barbirolli. I just knew you would would succumb to these magnificent performances. I do love Boult a lot as well. Do give Slatkin's Elgar a listen at some point. I was very surprised by his performances.

Thanks, John! Yes, you have been pushing Barbirolli quite a bit and I know how fond you are of his recording. It seemed for a while that you barked "Barbirolli" and I barked "Boult"!  :D   Now I am curious about your remarks in regards to Slatkin. Is his Elgar drastically different?  There seems literally to be an ocean of different performances of Elgar's symphonies!!!

Peter
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Jo498 on January 22, 2015, 01:13:04 AM
I'd be interested in recommendations for the 3 major chamber pieces: string quartet, piano quintet, violin sonata. The Maggini Q on Naxos couples the first two and they usually got very good reviews for British music (I have their RVW quartet/quintet disc). On hyperion there is the Nash ensemble with sonata + quintet. Any comments on these?

TIA

(The classics for pleasure issues mentioned at the beginning of this thread are oop and not easy to get on the continent.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Wanderer on January 22, 2015, 01:45:55 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 21, 2015, 10:21:46 PM
I was not too thrilled hearing Solti's 2nd the other week (but I will return).

The newer members weren't here to remember, but in ancient GMG discussions I'd voiced my utter dissatisfaction (bordering indignation) with Solti's Elgar. This view hasn't changed. I rarely react so negatively to recordings, because most of the time there are at least some redeeming qualities or understandable points of view that make the interpretative choices legitimate, even if one disagrees with them. In Solti's Elgar I've found nothing worthwhile to warrant such leniency. Sometimes if it sounds bad, it's because it is.

Quote from: Jo498 on January 22, 2015, 01:13:04 AM
I'd be interested in recommendations for the ... violin sonata.

In my opinion, the best rendition of the superb violin sonata is the Mordkovitch/Milford on Chandos.

[asin]B000005Z6Y[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 22, 2015, 02:06:51 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on January 22, 2015, 01:45:55 AM


In my opinion, the best rendition of the superb violin sonata is the Mordkovitch/Milford on Chandos.

[asin]B000005Z6Y[/asin]

We had some good discussions about recordings of the chamber music a few years back - and I remember my enthusiasm about that Mordkovitch recording of the violin sonata. You're right - it is a stunning performance. At the time I'd have said my favourite was the one by Hugh Bean, but Mordkovitch seemed to add another dimension. I wrote a comparison of those two recordings at the time which might be helpful:

Quote from: Elgarian on May 14, 2010, 06:48:24 AM
Here goes. Bean v Mordkovitch. The first minute of the first movement says it all, in a way. Bean is marvellous, full of attack, almost aggressive. But Mordkovitch sounds completely different. Her tone is different, but I can't find words to fit - it's like comparing fine and coarse sandpaper, perhaps. She makes Bean sound as if he's lacking in finesse, more monodimensional in character. Her attack in the first minute is just as powerful as his, but it's like quicksilver, rising and falling in waves, with faster shifts of tone and pace. I get the impression she's actually playing faster than Bean (and checking the timings, I see that indeed she is, by a second or two when completing that first section. Bean is wonderful, but Mordkovitch makes him seem rather plodding by comparison.

This tendency carries on right through into the introduction of the second theme, where she seems to find nuances that Bean misses. For instance, you know how there's a long sustained high note starting at about 1m43s in Bean, and continuing for about 5 seconds? It's a lovely moment, poised somewhere between happiness and pain. Well, when Mordkovitch plays that, she seems to touch some sort of ethereal realm, where the note begins with exquisite delicacy and then fades with equal tenderness at the end. Her playing reminds me of those drawings by Rossetti of Elizabeth Siddal, where the pencil work rises from the page so delicately that you can't tell where the paper/pencil boundary is.

Again, towards the end of the last movement, Bean gives us what I call the spooky trees feeling starting at about 6m15s, then slides into the reappearance of the lovely 'Windflowerish' melody at 6m55s, and it's so very beautiful and moving; but when Mordkovitch plays that I almost get the impression that she's going to come to a halt at the end of the spooky trees, and maybe this time there'll be no reprieve ... then slowly, faintly, the lovely tune appears, like something forgotten and only now remembered. Again, Bean seems monodimensional by comparison. There's a kind of inevitability about where he's going, whereas Mordkovitch is full of uncertainty. Bean gives us plain speaking - beautiful, deeply felt plain speaking, while Mordkovitch is continually hesitant, trembling on the edge, lower lip quivering.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 22, 2015, 02:15:37 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 22, 2015, 01:13:04 AM
I'd be interested in recommendations for the 3 major chamber pieces: string quartet, piano quintet, violin sonata. The Maggini Q on Naxos couples the first two and they usually got very good reviews for British music (I have their RVW quartet/quintet disc).

TIA


As mentioned, Mordkovitch/Milford on Chandos for the Violin Sonata. The Naxos disc of the String Quartet and Piano Quintet is a very good choice.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 22, 2015, 06:33:04 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 21, 2015, 10:25:30 PM
Thanks, John! Yes, you have been pushing Barbirolli quite a bit and I know how fond you are of his recording. It seemed for a while that you barked "Barbirolli" and I barked "Boult"!  :D   Now I am curious about your remarks in regards to Slatkin. Is his Elgar drastically different?  There seems literally to be an ocean of different performances of Elgar's symphonies!!!

Peter

Hey Peter, yes, I'm quite pushy when it comes to performances I like! ;) I'm glad I have come to admire Boult's Elgar as much as Barbirolli's as both represent two different approaches. Slatkin, on the other hand, seems to find a happy medium from Barbirolli and Boult. Slatkin seems emotionally driven but not without an attention to the inner-workings and dynamics of the music. He also gets some very fine playing from the London Philharmonic with excellent audio quality to boot.

Another question: have you heard Andrew Davis new-ish recordings of Elgar on Signum Classics? I HIGHLY recommend the 2-CD set of Symphonies 1 & 2 and the single release of Enigma Variations. All performed by the Philharmonia Orchestra. Still one of my favorite Symphony No. 2 performances on record.

[asin]B0036U24UK[/asin]

[asin]B00288AUX4[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 22, 2015, 06:42:49 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 22, 2015, 02:06:51 AM
We had some good discussions about recordings of the chamber music a few years back - and I remember my enthusiasm about that Mordkovitch recording of the violin sonata. You're right - it is a stunning performance. At the time I'd have said my favourite was the one by Hugh Bean, but Mordkovitch seemed to add another dimension. I wrote a comparison of those two recordings at the time which might be helpful:


I recall, and this is a pleasure to re-read.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 22, 2015, 06:43:51 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 22, 2015, 06:42:49 AM
I recall, and this is a pleasure to re-read.

+1
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 22, 2015, 07:56:09 AM
Quote from: jfdrex on January 21, 2015, 04:54:48 PM
I can see where you are coming from in your reaction to the third movement.  It is intense (like much of Elgar's music), and has very definite moments of violence.  Elgar himself wrote that this movement represented "the madness that attends the excess or abuse of passion," and cited a passage from Tennyson's poem Maude in which the hero imagines his corpse lying in his grave:  "...the hoofs of the horses beat, beat into my scalp and brain..."

I was just reading a bit of the poem and discovered an explicit "windflower" connection that Elgar, although he does not quote it, in his knowing and subtle way certainly would have been aware of and, with his love of puzzles and enigmas, surely must have meant to be implicit in the music:

"The fault was mine, the fault was mine"—   
Why am I sitting here so stunn'd and still,   
Plucking the harmless wild-flower on the hill?—   
It is this guilty hand!—   
And there rises ever a passionate cry
From underneath in the darkening land—   
What is it, that has been done?


At the risk of being accused of pedantry ... I feel I need to say that I don't think this is quite right. The expression in Tennyson is 'wild-flower' (see above), not windflower. 'Windflower' (Anemone nemorosa) was the (very specific) name that Elgar associated with Alice Stuart Wortley, and I don't think a mere reference to a 'wild-flower' had any particular significance for him in that respect. Point is that 'windfloweriness' has all sort of important connections with some of the music (the violin concerto in particular), but to extend that idea to mere 'wild-floweriness' would muddy the Elgarian waters a good deal.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 22, 2015, 11:38:14 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 22, 2015, 07:56:09 AM
At the risk of being accused of pedantry ... I feel I need to say that I don't think this is quite right. The expression in Tennyson is 'wild-flower' (see above), not windflower. 'Windflower' (Anemone nemorosa) was the (very specific) name that Elgar associated with Alice Stuart Wortley, and I don't think a mere reference to a 'wild-flower' had any particular significance for him in that respect. Point is that 'windfloweriness' has all sort of important connections with some of the music (the violin concerto in particular), but to extend that idea to mere 'wild-floweriness' would muddy the Elgarian waters a good deal.

Ah, of course you're right. :-[  Here's the thing: As I read those lines, my eye saw the word--or my mind read it--as wind-flower.

Uncannily, almost the exact same thing happened to a dear friend of mine some years ago.  We had been exchanging some correspondence about the Elgar Violin Concerto.  Then, one morning, sitting in the front of the upper deck of a London bus on her way to work, she saw a sign that she read, on first glance, as wind flowers.  Only after she had been staring at the sign for a few moments did she realize that what it actually said was window flowers.

Such is the power of Elgarian suggestion!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 22, 2015, 12:30:43 PM
Elgar:
Violin Sonata Op. 82          Crayford/Brown
Piano Quintet  Op. 84       The Nash Ensemble


I am definitely more drawn to the soundscape of the Quintet than the Sonata. However, these pieces will need numerous listening reiterations as they are quite new to me.  0:)

[asin] B000002ZSL[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 22, 2015, 12:38:26 PM
Quote from: jfdrex on January 22, 2015, 11:38:14 AM
Ah, of course you're right. :-[  Here's the thing: As I read those lines, my eye saw the word--or my mind read it--as wind-flower.

Uncannily, almost the exact same thing happened to a dear friend of mine some years ago.  We had been exchanging some correspondence about the Elgar Violin Concerto.  Then, one morning, sitting in the front of the upper deck of a London bus on her way to work, she saw a sign that she read, on first glance, as wind flowers.  Only after she had been staring at the sign for a few moments did she realize that what it actually said was window flowers.

Such is the power of Elgarian suggestion!

It's a common medical condition called Elgaritis. I've had it for years and there's no cure.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 22, 2015, 01:52:13 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 22, 2015, 12:38:26 PM
It's a common medical condition called Elgaritis. I've had it for years and there's no cure.

No cure?  ??? Perhaps Mrs Winslow's Soothing Syrup would help?  0:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on January 22, 2015, 02:27:44 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 22, 2015, 01:52:13 PM
No cure?  ??? Perhaps Mrs Winslow's Soothing Syrup would help?  0:)

Not quite a universal panacea, although it did help me through my teething pains.  ;D  And taken in this form, it does have a certain soothing effect:

https://www.youtube.com/v/VNnVR5rHWLU

Perhaps I should try Tincture of Windflower?

(http://www.poppyswap.com/uploaded/2013-3-21/2bd49d3b2Defd12D499c2Da9fd2D2c9f8cdb05e440132n.jpg)

http://www.herbalremedieslk.com/herbal_information/ANEMONE.html (http://www.herbalremedieslk.com/herbal_information/ANEMONE.html)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Anemone_nemorosa_001.JPG)
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 22, 2015, 04:04:21 PM
What do my fellow Elgarians think of the Organ Sonata, the original or the arrangement for orchestra?

In 'The Music Maker' (by Diana McVeagh) she says it's known as the precursor to the two symphonies, Elgar's first large scale instrumental composition.

For me it's a real interesting piece and I'm getting to know it from the 30 CD Elgar box.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 22, 2015, 04:06:19 PM
Listening with glee to the Lyrita London Philharmonic performance of the First (Sir Adrian conducting). Yesterday I listened to the Second and I had a few doubts (too gentle a scherzo). But not this time. Everything flows effortlessly, from the grand opening strains of the first movement march to the malicious, bubbly scherzo, into the magnificent adagio.

The 19 disc EMI box which I got yesterday contains 2 other performances - from the 1940s and fromt the1970s (used to have those on LP). Can't wait to listen to the whole thing !!!  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 22, 2015, 04:09:03 PM


Quote from: André on January 22, 2015, 04:06:19 PM
Listening with glee to the Lyrita London Philharmonic performance of the First (Sir Adrian conducting). Yesterday I listened to the Second and I had a few doubts (too gentle a scherzo). But not this time. Everything flows effortlessly, from the grand opening strains of the first movement march to the malicious, bubbly scherzo, into the magnificent adagio.


I agree with your comments, what an incredible performance in good sound! I actually listened to it for the first time today.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 22, 2015, 04:12:28 PM
Quote from: André on January 22, 2015, 04:06:19 PM
Listening with glee to the Lyrita London Philharmonic performance of the First (Sir Adrian conducting). Yesterday I listened to the Second and I had a few doubts (too gentle a scherzo). But not this time. Everything flows effortlessly, from the grand opening strains of the first movement march to the malicious, bubbly scherzo, into the magnificent adagio.

The 19 disc EMI box which I got yesterday contains 2 other performances - from the 1940s and fromt the1970s (used to have those on LP). Can't wait to listen to the whole thing !!!  ;D

2015 must be an Elgar year for some reason!!    8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 22, 2015, 05:06:18 PM
150 good reasons !  :laugh:
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 22, 2015, 05:28:52 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 22, 2015, 06:33:04 AM
Hey Peter, yes, I'm quite pushy when it comes to performances I like! ;) I'm glad I have come to admire Boult's Elgar as much as Barbirolli's as both represent two different approaches. Slatkin, on the other hand, seems to find a happy medium from Barbirolli and Boult. Slatkin seems emotionally driven but not without an attention to the inner-workings and dynamics of the music. He also gets some very fine playing from the London Philharmonic with excellent audio quality to boot.

Another question: have you heard Andrew Davis new-ish recordings of Elgar on Signum Classics? I HIGHLY recommend the 2-CD set of Symphonies 1 & 2 and the single release of Enigma Variations. All performed by the Philharmonia Orchestra. Still one of my favorite Symphony No. 2 performances on record.

[asin]B0036U24UK[/asin]

[asin]B00288AUX4[/asin]

No, I haven't heard those performances. I have only listened to A. Davis' BBC SO recordings.  Do you think the ones on Signum are the best recordings of #1 and #2 in modern digital sound?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 22, 2015, 06:15:16 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 22, 2015, 05:28:52 PM
No, I haven't heard those performances. I have only listened to A. Davis' BBC SO recordings.  Do you think the ones on Signum are the best recordings of #1 and #2 in modern digital sound?

I really, really like Mark Elder's performance of Symphony No. 1 and, of course, A. Davis' performance of Symphony No. 2 is the best modern performance I've heard of this symphony, but, honestly, I think you couldn't go wrong with Elder or A. Davis here.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 22, 2015, 06:16:43 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 22, 2015, 12:30:43 PM
Elgar:
Violin Sonata Op. 82          Crayford/Brown
Piano Quintet  Op. 84       The Nash Ensemble


I am definitely more drawn to the soundscape of the Quintet than the Sonata. However, these pieces will need numerous listening reiterations as they are quite new to me.  0:)

[asin] B000002ZSL[/asin]

I really enjoy both works. I probably enjoy the Violin Sonata more since I'm a sucker for the violin/piano combination. I need to give more listens to the Piano Quintet.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 22, 2015, 06:33:59 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2015, 05:21:04 PM
Gave the Takezawa/C. Davis a listen but didn't feel anything from it like I did Little/A. Davis. Takezawa definitely plays well, but I need more from the Violin Concerto. I got halfway through the first movement of Symphony No. 2 with Barenboim/Staatskapelle and turned it off. This isn't the Elgar 'sound' that I know and love. It sounds a bit emotionless to me. I just couldn't make it through it without being disappointed by how out-of-touch Barenboim is from Elgar's sound-world. The reviewer on Amazon had it right when they said Barenboim was no Elgarian. He certainly isn't in my book. Boult is starting to sound a lot better to me now. I'm definitely going to be revisiting his performances once I get his EMI Complete Elgar Recordings set.
The Barenboim Elgar 2 with the Staatskapelle is now one of my favorite recordings of the 2nd - the sound is so lush, the strings dig deep and sound tension ridden and the phrasing is sculpted with beauty and drive, a wonderful fantastic performance!!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 22, 2015, 06:36:27 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 22, 2015, 06:33:59 PM
The Barenboim Elgar 2 with the Staatskapelle is now one of my favorite recordings of the 2nd - the sound is so lush, the strings dig deep and sound tension ridden and the phrasing is sculpted with beauty and drive, a wonderful fantastic performance!!

Great to hear, Leo! I wish I could find the same virtues in the performance however. I was quite disappointed, but Barenboim has some stiff competition in this masterpiece anyway.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 22, 2015, 08:51:28 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 22, 2015, 06:36:27 PM
Great to hear, Leo! I wish I could find the same virtues in the performance however. I was quite disappointed, but Barenboim has some stiff competition in this masterpiece anyway.
I can understand this performance may not be everyone's cup of tea - it's funny but I am reminded of Simon Rattle's style - of which I'm a fan - but the majority will not like that controlled way with the score.  If it flows I like it, as I hear in this recording.

Another newer release I like is the Osamo account, it's a totally different take - leaner, faster and thinner texture.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 22, 2015, 09:05:06 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 22, 2015, 08:51:28 PM
I can understand this performance may not be everyone's cup of tea - it's funny but I am reminded of Simon Rattle's style - of which I'm a fan - but the majority will not like that controlled way with the score.  If it flows I like it, as I hear in this recording.

Another newer release I like is the Oramo account, it's a totally different take - leaner, faster and thinner texture.

I suppose I'm just a sentimental sap and like hearing this symphony a certain way. Don't get me wrong, I love hearing different interpretations, but it seems this particular work I seem to have veils over my ears in the way that if I don't feel something from the performance, then, ultimately, I push it aside like a bad meal. But, hey, that's what makes us different as listeners. To each his own.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 22, 2015, 10:21:54 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 22, 2015, 09:05:06 PM
I suppose I'm just a sentimental sap and like hearing this symphony a certain way. Don't get me wrong, I love hearing different interpretations, but it seems this particular work I seem to have veils over my ears in the way that if I don't feel something from the performance, then, ultimately, I push it aside like a bad meal. But, hey, that's what makes us different as listeners. To each his own.
Amen to that my friend! 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 23, 2015, 05:06:46 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on January 22, 2015, 12:30:43 PM
Elgar:
Violin Sonata Op. 82          Crayford/Brown
Piano Quintet  Op. 84       The Nash Ensemble


I am definitely more drawn to the soundscape of the Quintet than the Sonata.

Well, circumstances were such that I was besotted with the Sonata right out the gate.  (Others have heard me retail this story, and I crave their patience.)

I did my Master's at UVa in Charlottesville;  and in those days there was a concert series, whose administration was independent of the University, but which was made welcome to use the Old Cabell Hall auditorium, the Tuesday Evening Concert Series (a clunky enow name that it generally went by TECS).  The guest artist one Tuesday (which happened to be the first Tuesday when I was in the Music Department, and there was a TECS event) was Nigel Kennedy, who was going to play the Bartók solo sonata ... of course I was keen as dammit to hear that piece performed live, and the deal I cut for the privilege of attending the concert gratis was, I would turn pages for the accompanist in the Elgar Sonata.  An unforgettable evening, and I have loved the Elgar Sonata ever since.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 23, 2015, 06:45:11 AM
Great story, Karl. I'd love to hear the Violin Sonata live at some point. Why can't Tasmin Little and Piers Lane come to my house and play it? ;) ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: springrite on January 23, 2015, 06:50:16 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 23, 2015, 06:45:11 AM
Great story, Karl. I'd love to hear the Violin Sonata live at some point. Why can't Tasmin Little and Piers Lane come to my house and play it? ;) ;D

They are pre-occupied with the three Delius sonatas.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 23, 2015, 07:03:45 AM
Quote from: springrite on January 23, 2015, 06:50:16 AM
They are pre-occupied with the three Delius sonatas.

(* chortle *)
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on January 23, 2015, 01:10:28 PM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/23/241da61fd44bc73e190a1d4537bb5739.jpg)

Wow, a truly magnificent Elgar 2nd! And the sound for this 1944 recording is not bad at all, it's got punch! The opening is so clear and driven, with the horns wonderfully captured with fierceness and herocism - great and inspiring!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 23, 2015, 04:15:28 PM
That's one of the versions included in the 19-disc EMI set. Hopefully the sound will hold up to your assessment !
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 23, 2015, 05:03:39 PM
Quote from: springrite on January 23, 2015, 06:50:16 AM
They are pre-occupied with the three Delius sonatas.

;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 24, 2015, 08:43:24 AM
I've really been enjoying Nigel Kennedy's second outing with Elgar's Violin Concerto:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410I3NadpwL.jpg)

Such a poetic performance. Kennedy is in top-form here.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 24, 2015, 12:01:56 PM
Received some additional fuel for my TDoG addiction today....    >:D

[asin] B00007IFQG[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 24, 2015, 03:11:07 PM
This is one of my top five Gerontiuses  :D
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 24, 2015, 04:51:07 PM
"Gerontii"?...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on January 24, 2015, 06:06:01 PM
Quote from: André on January 24, 2015, 03:11:07 PM
This is one of my top five Gerontiuses  :D

Good to hear!  :) ;)   Now I can enter its waters without fear!  0:) 0:) 0:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on January 25, 2015, 09:29:34 AM
It is good and Palmer is always worth listening to. She is still singing the likes of Clytemnestra well onto her 70s. But all round, everyone in that Hickox recording provides a lot of pleasure.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 25, 2015, 09:41:31 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 24, 2015, 04:51:07 PM
"Gerontii"?...

Bus, buses, bii ?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Jo498 on January 25, 2015, 12:08:25 PM
I'd go with somnia
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on January 25, 2015, 12:15:09 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 24, 2015, 04:51:07 PM
"Gerontii"?...

Dreams of Gerontius?

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 25, 2015, 01:07:00 PM
Righte now, listening to disc one of the EMI Elgar-Boult box. Cockaigne, Froissart, Serenade Chanson de nit, Chanson de matin, Three Bavarian Dances,  Meditation from The Light of Life, Imperial March, Triumphal March from Caractacus.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 26, 2015, 03:29:08 PM
Quote from: André on January 25, 2015, 01:07:00 PM
Righte now, listening to disc one of the EMI Elgar-Boult box. Cockaigne, Froissart, Serenade Chanson de nit, Chanson de matin, Three Bavarian Dances,  Meditation from The Light of Life, Imperial March, Triumphal March from Caractacus.

Very nice, Andre. What do you think about this Boult set so far?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 26, 2015, 04:01:53 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 26, 2015, 03:29:08 PM
Very nice, Andre. What do you think about this Boult set so far?

Righte now listening to disc 3 (yesterday was devoted to, you guessed right: disc no. 2) !!

It's a winner through and through. These (discs 1-3) are among the last from the maestro and they are so alive with fine details, surging flow, a constant mobility. Amazing: who has ever conducted the potentially trite P&C Marches so winningly: no 1 is fast yet all its nobilmente character comes through like a flower opening in full glory in the dewy morning sun. I mean: how did he achieve that pomp AND circumstance feeling ??

I have said it on another (French language) forum: this is probably the best composer+single conductor set on the market. Grab it !
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 26, 2015, 04:10:19 PM
Quote from: André on January 26, 2015, 04:01:53 PM
Righte now listening to disc 3 (yesterday was devoted to, you guessed right: disc no. 2) !!

It's a winner through and through. These (discs 1-3) are among the last from the maestro and they are so alive with fine details, surging flow, a constant mobility. Amazing: who has ever conducted the potentially trite P&C Marches so winningly: no 1 is fast yet all its nobilmente character comes through like a flower opening in full glory in the dewy morning sun. I mean: how did he achieve that pomp AND circumstance feeling ??

I have said it on another (French language) forum: this is probably the best composer+single conductor set on the market. Grab it !

I own this set of course. :) Yes, I agree, Boult had a wonderful way with Elgar and I didn't always hear it because I was under the opinion that Barbirolli couldn't be bettered. Well, guess again! It's hard to beat either conductor in Elgar, though. I don't like the Pomp & Circumstance Marches either but, you're right, Boult made them sound like they were more than mere ceremonial works. I still don't like these works. 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 28, 2015, 06:45:16 PM
I've really been enjoying this recording tonight:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/032/MI0001032697.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

I haven't listened to anything but the Violin Sonata and it was simply an exquisite performance from Mordkovitch/Milford, although, I still like the Crayford/Brown (Nash Ensemble) performance on Hyperion a lot, which is a bit more emotionally reserved and conveys a different kind of mood --- more of an inward, withdrawn type of interpretation, which suits this music fine IMHO. It's nice to have both of these contrasting performances.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 28, 2015, 07:18:41 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 28, 2015, 06:45:16 PM
I've really been enjoying this recording tonight:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/032/MI0001032697.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

I haven't listened to anything but the Violin Sonata and it was simply an exquisite performance from Mordkovitch/Milford, although, I still like the Crayford/Brown (Nash Ensemble) performance on Hyperion a lot, which is a bit more emotionally reserved and conveys a different kind of mood --- more of an inward, withdrawn type of interpretation, which suits this music fine IMHO. It's nice to have both of these contrasting performances.

Okay, so I went back and listened to this Mordkovitch/Milford performance of the Violin Sonata again and the result this time left a lot to be desired. I find this performance simply emotionally overboard. I don't think there's any subtlety in Mordkovitch's playing and I don't really care much for her tone. I love this work, but I don't like this kind of interpretation. I prefer something more withdrawn and somber. Mordkovitch/Milford perform this work like it's early-to-mid period Elgar when we all know his chamber music is the work of a broken man who seems to have taken all of his sadness and infused it into these pieces. So I stand by my favorite performance Crayford/Brown for now until I find another performance that can take this music into an even deeper state of despair.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on January 29, 2015, 01:06:11 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 28, 2015, 07:18:41 PM
Okay, so I went back and listened to this Mordkovitch/Milford performance of the Violin Sonata again and the result this time left a lot to be desired. I find this performance simply emotionally overboard. I don't think there's any subtlety in Mordkovitch's playing and I don't really care much for her tone. I love this work, but I don't like this kind of interpretation. I prefer something more withdrawn and somber. Mordkovitch/Milford perform this work like it's early-to-mid period Elgar when we all know his chamber music is the work of a broken man who seems to have taken all of his sadness and infused it into these pieces. So I stand by my favorite performance Crayford/Brown for now until I find another performance that can take this music into an even deeper state of despair.

I'm baffled, John. What happened between the first post (#2639 -which reported that you really enjoyed the recording) and the second, half an hour later (#2640 - which said you didn't)?

I'm not sure how I'd feel about listening to any recording twice in a row, straight, like that. But what particularly strikes me about the second post is this comment: 'I don't think there's any subtlety in Mordkovitch's playing'. Of course whether you like it or not is one thing. Anyone can like or dislike anything. But surely one thing that Mordkovitch has in bucketloads is subtlety in this performance? It was her subtlety - the apparently infinite layering of nuance, that first alerted me to it. Forgive me for quoting myself again, from the occasion when I compared her with Hugh Bean:

QuoteBean v Mordkovitch. The first minute of the first movement says it all, in a way. Bean is marvellous, full of attack, almost aggressive. But Mordkovitch sounds completely different. Her tone is different, but I can't find words to fit - it's like comparing fine and coarse sandpaper, perhaps. She makes Bean sound as if he's lacking in finesse, more monodimensional in character. Her attack in the first minute is just as powerful as his, but it's like quicksilver, rising and falling in waves, with faster shifts of tone and pace. I get the impression she's actually playing faster than Bean (and checking the timings, I see that indeed she is, by a second or two when completing that first section. Bean is wonderful, but Mordkovitch makes him seem rather plodding by comparison.

This tendency carries on right through into the introduction of the second theme, where she seems to find nuances that Bean misses. For instance, you know how there's a long sustained high note starting at about 1m43s in Bean, and continuing for about 5 seconds? It's a lovely moment, poised somewhere between happiness and pain. Well, when Mordkovitch plays that, she seems to touch some sort of ethereal realm, where the note begins with exquisite delicacy and then fades with equal tenderness at the end. Her playing reminds me of those drawings by Rossetti of Elizabeth Siddal, where the pencil work rises from the page so delicately that you can't tell where the paper/pencil boundary is.

Obviously something wasn't right when you listened that second time, and something clearly was turning you off. But I wonder if you're sure you've identified the cause correctly?

There's also an interesting debate to be had about whether Elgar should be thought of as 'a broken man' when he was writing these late chamber pieces. Certainly he was disillusioned (he had a tendency for disillusionment!), but he'd found this isolated cottage at Brinkwells and was finding a kind of (troubled) peace there which inspired the great chamber works. There's deep sadness to be felt within them, yes - but great beauty too: would a 'broken man' be able to write such exquisite music as these chamber pieces? (The term might be more accurately applied to him after the death of Alice, perhaps, when for a long time he became unable or unwilling to compose anything of substance.)

I suppose we're into that frequently encountered area of paradox in art whereby the work that's created presents itself as a kind of answer to disillusionment, creating a mood that hovers between elation and regret. (I'm thinking of things like Matthew Arnold's 'Dover Beach', or much of Ted Hughes's poetry.) Mordkovitch seems to take me closer to that teetering, quivering edge than any other performance that I know. I've never experienced it myself as 'emotionally overboard', but of course the details of our emotional responses are not predictable things. And I guess that the performance that shocks us with its greatness on one occasion can be simply too much to take, on another.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 29, 2015, 05:20:45 AM
Crown of India?
Is the complete score worth it? I like the suite, and have listened to samples of the Andrew Davis recoridng with Payne's completion, but curious about the entire score.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on January 29, 2015, 05:28:54 AM
Yo, Greg!

As to your question, I think I have it coming in;  cannot answer at present, but shall be able to, hereafter . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 29, 2015, 06:02:59 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 29, 2015, 05:28:54 AM
Yo, Greg!

As to your question, I think I have it coming in;  cannot answer at present, but shall be able to, hereafter . . . .

Cool. Thanks, Karl.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 29, 2015, 06:41:45 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 29, 2015, 01:06:11 AM
I'm baffled, John. What happened between the first post (#2639 -which reported that you really enjoyed the recording) and the second, half an hour later (#2640 - which said you didn't)?

I'm not sure how I'd feel about listening to any recording twice in a row, straight, like that. But what particularly strikes me about the second post is this comment: 'I don't think there's any subtlety in Mordkovitch's playing'. Of course whether you like it or not is one thing. Anyone can like or dislike anything. But surely one thing that Mordkovitch has in bucketloads is subtlety in this performance? It was her subtlety - the apparently infinite layering of nuance, that first alerted me to it. Forgive me for quoting myself again, from the occasion when I compared her with Hugh Bean:

Obviously something wasn't right when you listened that second time, and something clearly was turning you off. But I wonder if you're sure you've identified the cause correctly?

There's also an interesting debate to be had about whether Elgar should be thought of as 'a broken man' when he was writing these late chamber pieces. Certainly he was disillusioned (he had a tendency for disillusionment!), but he'd found this isolated cottage at Brinkwells and was finding a kind of (troubled) peace there which inspired the great chamber works. There's deep sadness to be felt within them, yes - but great beauty too: would a 'broken man' be able to write such exquisite music as these chamber pieces? (The term might be more accurately applied to him after the death of Alice, perhaps, when for a long time he became unable or unwilling to compose anything of substance.)

I suppose we're into that frequently encountered area of paradox in art whereby the work that's created presents itself as a kind of answer to disillusionment, creating a mood that hovers between elation and regret. (I'm thinking of things like Matthew Arnold's 'Dover Beach', or much of Ted Hughes's poetry.) Mordkovitch seems to take me closer to that teetering, quivering edge than any other performance that I know. I've never experienced it myself as 'emotionally overboard', but of course the details of our emotional responses are not predictable things. And I guess that the performance that shocks us with its greatness on one occasion can be simply too much to take, on another.

Alan (I hope this is your correct name), my first-listen to the Mordkovitch/Milford proved to be rather enjoyable as first-listens rarely are any indication of something being not to my taste. Sometimes I can spot something I don't like right off the bat, but, in this instance, this wasn't the case. The second listen revealed several things I didn't enjoy, which I detailed in my second post in regards to this recording. As I mentioned, I do not hear subtlety in Mordkovitch's playing but rather an abrasive approach that doesn't quite do much for me. Sometimes, as you mentioned, a performance of this kind of emotional intensity can leave someone cold and wondering why can't the performers ever just calm down. Elgar's Violin Sonata is a complicated work depicting what I believe is a weakened psychological state. For me, my comment regarding how this performance was 'emotionally overboard' is spot-on. I thought this wasn't the kind of spirit this work required. I'm not giving up on Mordkovitch/Milford, but I certainly don't share your enthusiasm for it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 29, 2015, 06:43:53 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 29, 2015, 05:20:45 AM
Crown of India?
Is the complete score worth it? I like the suite, and have listened to samples of the Andrew Davis recoridng with Payne's completion, but curious about the entire score.

OMG, it's Greg! Welcome back!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 29, 2015, 06:44:56 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 29, 2015, 06:43:53 AM
OMG, it's Greg! Welcome back!

Hi, John.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 29, 2015, 07:29:46 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 29, 2015, 05:20:45 AM
Crown of India?
Is the complete score worth it? I like the suite, and have listened to samples of the Andrew Davis recoridng with Payne's completion, but curious about the entire score.

Like you, I really like the suite, but haven't heard the work in its entirety. I'll be curious to read what Karl and Peter (he ordered this A. Davis recording as well) have to say about it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Wanderer on January 29, 2015, 07:31:13 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on January 29, 2015, 01:06:11 AM
There's also an interesting debate to be had about whether Elgar should be thought of as 'a broken man' when he was writing these late chamber pieces. Certainly he was disillusioned (he had a tendency for disillusionment!), but he'd found this isolated cottage at Brinkwells and was finding a kind of (troubled) peace there which inspired the great chamber works. There's deep sadness to be felt within them, yes - but great beauty too: would a 'broken man' be able to write such exquisite music as these chamber pieces? (The term might be more accurately applied to him after the death of Alice, perhaps, when for a long time he became unable or unwilling to compose anything of substance.)

I suppose we're into that frequently encountered area of paradox in art whereby the work that's created presents itself as a kind of answer to disillusionment, creating a mood that hovers between elation and regret. (I'm thinking of things like Matthew Arnold's 'Dover Beach', or much of Ted Hughes's poetry.) Mordkovitch seems to take me closer to that teetering, quivering edge than any other performance that I know. I've never experienced it myself as 'emotionally overboard', but of course the details of our emotional responses are not predictable things. And I guess that the performance that shocks us with its greatness on one occasion can be simply too much to take, on another.

Seconded.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 30, 2015, 03:20:59 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 29, 2015, 07:29:46 AM
Like you, I really like the suite, but haven't heard the work in its entirety. I'll be curious to read what Karl and Peter (he ordered this A. Davis recording as well) have to say about it.

I think I mentioned something about that superb Chandos twofer. Not that it's a hidden treasure of major importance, but if ever a minor work of great tunefulness was given the imperial treatment, this is it. There's a couple of surefire hits here, but most of the hour+ extracts are simply spoken (muscally speaking) "in the manner of" Elgar. Disc one has all the musical bits, disc 2 (my favourite) has all the grand imperial parlance appended to the same extracts. Warmly recommended if the price is right.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 30, 2015, 04:36:07 PM
Quote from: André on January 30, 2015, 03:20:59 PM
I think I mentioned something about that superb Chandos twofer. Not that it's a hidden treasure of major importance, but if ever a minor work of great tunefulness was given the imperial treatment, this is it. There's a couple of surefire hits here, but most of the hour+ extracts are simply spoken (muscally speaking) "in the manner of" Elgar. Disc one has all the musical bits, disc 2 (my favourite) has all the grand imperial parlance appended to the same extracts. Warmly recommended if the price is right.

Thank you, Andre, for the post.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 30, 2015, 06:33:16 PM
Quote from: André on January 30, 2015, 03:20:59 PM
I think I mentioned something about that superb Chandos twofer. Not that it's a hidden treasure of major importance, but if ever a minor work of great tunefulness was given the imperial treatment, this is it. There's a couple of surefire hits here, but most of the hour+ extracts are simply spoken (muscally speaking) "in the manner of" Elgar. Disc one has all the musical bits, disc 2 (my favourite) has all the grand imperial parlance appended to the same extracts. Warmly recommended if the price is right.

Thanks for the feedback, Andre. I'll have to check it out.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 01, 2015, 01:10:13 PM
Elgar: The Spirit of England Op. 80        Cahill/Collins/Rolfe-Johnson/Howell/Scottish National Orchestra and Chorus [Currie]/Gibson

A first listen (I actually listened to it twice in a row  ;)): Full of spirit indeed!  I really have no reference recordings at this point. At first it seemed quite homogenous (especially the first movement), but as I kept listening the piece transformed (somehow Elgar compositions tend to do that as I keep hearing new patterns and themes). There is something about how Elgar combined the solo voices, the chorus and the orchestra that creates a dynamic soundscape. The second time I heard the first movement it had already become much more interesting. The second and third movements have a pulse and grace that is very inviting to the theme of the composition. Of course, this theme lives strongly in the first movement as Cahill's voice truly brings something luminescent into being.  Many of you have praised Cahill's voice in this recording and I can see how her cadence adds to the experience. However, I think I need to hear a few other renditions to truly appreciate her. Cahill's voice at the end of the 2nd movement transcends the borders of mortality as it is then followed by a soft chorus and the sound of the orchestra drifting away towards another realm. A truly beautiful ending of the second movement. The composition truly glows. Luminescent is the word that comes to my mind.

I can certainly see myself returning to this recording many times so thanks for the recommendation. It is beautiful!

[asin] B000000A9N[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 01, 2015, 06:43:10 PM
Glad you enjoyed it, Peter. It's certainly an incredible work and the Cahill/Gibson performance tramples them all. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 01, 2015, 08:33:14 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 01, 2015, 06:43:10 PM
Glad you enjoyed it, Peter. It's certainly an incredible work and the Cahill/Gibson performance tramples them all. :)

It is indeed excellent. Considering the rave all of you put forward I had high expectations, and after two listening sessions I was enchanted. Now I have to hear another rendition just for the heck of it! I think I have one in the big EMI Elgar box.  >:D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 01, 2015, 08:38:48 PM
Elgar:
Introduction and Allegro (1937)
Enigma Variations (1936)
Cello Concerto (1945)              Casals

BBC SO/Boult


This evening I felt like tuning into some historical recordings. Disc 19 in the Boult box looked promising. It was high caliber vintage Elgar/Boult with much better sound than expected throughout all three pieces. One can of course hear the sound of the 78s here and there, but it did not bother me. Standard issues with high frequency distortions etc. The Enigma Variations were enchanting, but I was surprised how much I enjoyed Casals' rendition of the Cello Concerto. I did not have any major expectations this evening. I had been hiking in the redwood forest earlier today so it was quite enjoyable to lean back and let one's mind wander into these time capsules.  Great vintage Elgar recordings!

cd 19 from:
[asin] B00C68FJ0K[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 01, 2015, 08:54:38 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 01, 2015, 08:33:14 PM
It is indeed excellent. Considering the rave all of you put forward I had high expectations, and after two listening sessions I was enchanted. Now I have to hear another rendition just for the heck of it! I think I have one in the big EMI Elgar box.  >:D

Great, Peter. I believe the Hickox performance of The Spirit of England is in that EMI box.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 02, 2015, 12:58:23 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 01, 2015, 01:10:13 PM
Elgar: The Spirit of England Op. 80        Cahill/Collins/Rolfe-Johnson/Howell/Scottish National Orchestra and Chorus [Currie]/Gibson

A first listen (I actually listened to it twice in a row  ;)): Full of spirit indeed!  I really have no reference recordings at this point. At first it seemed quite homogenous (especially the first movement), but as I kept listening the piece transformed (somehow Elgar compositions tend to do that as I keep hearing new patterns and themes). There is something about how Elgar combined the solo voices, the chorus and the orchestra that creates a dynamic soundscape. The second time I heard the first movement it had already become much more interesting. The second and third movements have a pulse and grace that is very inviting to the theme of the composition. Of course, this theme lives strongly in the first movement as Cahill's voice truly brings something luminescent into being.  Many of you have praised Cahill's voice in this recording and I can see how her cadence adds to the experience. However, I think I need to hear a few other renditions to truly appreciate her. Cahill's voice at the end of the 2nd movement transcends the borders of mortality as it is then followed by a soft chorus and the sound of the orchestra drifting away towards another realm. A truly beautiful ending of the second movement. The composition truly glows. Luminescent is the word that comes to my mind.

I can certainly see myself returning to this recording many times so thanks for the recommendation. It is beautiful!

So glad to hear that it's made its mark on you. What I've always found incomprehensible is the extent to which the work has been neglected over decades, until recently. Perhaps the title is a put-off for some ... but in truth the work isn't Nationalistic in spirit. Altough it has 'England' in the title, its inspiration is universal - about never forgetting the sacrifice made for others on our behalf - and the music is as magnificent as the subject calls for. This particular performance of it, as you know, has been my touchstone for many years.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on February 02, 2015, 04:58:45 AM
Indeed, Spirit is very touching and grand. It's strange that Boult never recorded it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 02, 2015, 08:24:54 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on February 02, 2015, 12:58:23 AM
So glad to hear that it's made its mark on you. What I've always found incomprehensible is the extent to which the work has been neglected over decades, until recently. Perhaps the title is a put-off for some ... but in truth the work isn't Nationalistic in spirit. Altough it has 'England' in the title, its inspiration is universal - about never forgetting the sacrifice made for others on our behalf - and the music is as magnificent as the subject calls for. This particular performance of it, as you know, has been my touchstone for many years.

That is a good point Elgarian (about England). Perhaps the work comes across differently to a British audience (especially at the time), while my experience reached towards the realm of humanity and spirit. I think I perhaps may never have had the encounter if it wasn't for the enthusiasm and inspiration put forward in this thread.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 02, 2015, 08:34:20 PM
Elgar: The Dream of Gerontius         Palmer/Davies/Howell/London Symphony Chorus and Orchestra/Hickox

I listened to Hickox's recording of TDoG this evening. It was certainly very enjoyable, but did not have the punch and energy I experienced in Boult's performance. Very good, but not quite reaching the luminescence I expect in Elgar's work. At the same time I must admit that I became attuned to this piece with the help of Boult so perhaps I am a bit biased?  I very much appreciated the vocalists throughout (especially Palmer's voice), but in my opinion this recording joins the company of Britten's TDoG (in which I did not care much for Pears' voice), i.e. excellent but not in the desert island category. It is definitely a recording to embrace as it is in good company. I will definitely return to it as I most likely will traverse the TDoG terrain many more times in my future. Perhaps I will see things differently as the years pass....

[asin] B000000AHU[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51fzefJGC8L.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 02, 2015, 08:45:34 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 02, 2015, 08:34:20 PM
Elgar: The Dream of Gerontius         Palmer/Davies/Howell/London Symphony Chorus and Orchestra/Hickox

I listened to Hickox's recording of TDoG this evening. It was certainly very enjoyable, but did not have the punch and energy I experienced in Boult's performance. Very good, but not quite reaching the luminescence I expect in Elgar's work. At the same time I must admit that I became attuned to this piece with the help of Boult so perhaps I am a bit biased?  I very much appreciated the vocalists throughout (especially Palmer's voice), but in my opinion this recording joins the company of Britten's TDoG (in which I did not care much for Pears' voice), i.e. excellent but not in the desert island category. It is definitely a recording to embrace as it is in good company. I will definitely return to it as I most likely will traverse the TDoG terrain many more times in my future. Perhaps I will see things differently as the years pass....

[asin] B000000AHU[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51fzefJGC8L.jpg)

This is what I expected, Peter. I'm not at all impressed by Hickox's Elgar performances. He seemed to be somewhat disconnected from the music. You've got to hear Elder's Gerontius. Let me put it to you this way, it's the only Gerontius I listen to when I want to hear the work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 02, 2015, 09:03:48 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 02, 2015, 08:45:34 PM
This is what I expected, Peter. I'm not at all impressed by Hickox's Elgar performances. He seemed to be somewhat disconnected from the music. You've got to hear Elder's Gerontius. Let me put it to you this way, it's the only Gerontius I listen to when I want to hear the work.

To me, Alice Coote's performance in Elder's Gerontius is an all-timer. You can just feel the divinity in her voice when she first enters with "My work is done"
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 02, 2015, 09:07:33 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 02, 2015, 09:03:48 PM
To me, Alice Coote's performance in Elder's Gerontius is an all-timer. You can just feel the divinity in her voice when she first enters with "My work is done"

+ 1
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 02, 2015, 09:58:52 PM
John & Greg! Temptations!!!!! Always another TDoG around the corner.... (for now)   
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Albion on February 03, 2015, 09:01:09 AM
The new Chandos King Olaf is a winner! Banish those memories of Teresa Cahill's swallowed vowels and Brian Rayner Cook's over-emoting, this is even better than Hickox's Caractacus.

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/095115514924.jpg)

:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 03, 2015, 11:36:03 AM
Quote from: Albion on February 03, 2015, 09:01:09 AM
The new Chandos King Olaf is a winner! Banish those memories of Teresa Cahill's swallowed vowels and Brian Rayner Cook's over-emoting, this is even better than Hickox's Caractacus.

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/095115514924.jpg)

:)

How did you hear this so early? Did you buy it as a digital download?

Edit: Okay, I see it's already available in the UK.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 04, 2015, 08:24:02 PM
Listened to Tate's Symphony No. 2 performance tonight:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/088/MI0001088815.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

My first reaction was this is a strange sounding recording. The string section (very important in Elgar IMHO) is recessed or somehow not balanced enough with the other instrument sections. I thought the first movement was good enough, but not one of the better ones I've heard. The Larghetto was handled beautifully, but I thought it was a bit drawn out for my liking even though I found it quite alluring. The third movement was completely berserk, which didn't really appeal to me. I prefer more control from a conductor and the percussion was just too loud which drowned out the other instrumental sections. Accentuating certain sections is fine but when there's one section that drowns out all of the others, I have to just shake my head. The last movement couldn't have been more misshaped. It seems episodic and not organic. There was no natural flow to the music. There were some sections of this movement that just sounded completely scrappy to me and somehow cut up. The string section didn't particularly impress me here. I just found the whole movement choppy and lacking some kind of clear direction. Would I listen to this performance again any time soon? Probably not, but hearing a performance that doesn't do much for me only helps reinforce the performances that I do like and that are near and dear to me.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 04, 2015, 08:57:09 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 04, 2015, 08:24:02 PM
Listened to Tate's Symphony No. 2 performance tonight:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/088/MI0001088815.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

My first reaction was this is a strange sounding recording. The string section (very important in Elgar IMHO) is recessed or somehow not balanced enough with the other instrument sections. I thought the first movement was good enough, but not one of the better ones I've heard. The Larghetto was handled beautifully, but I thought it was a bit drawn out for my liking even though I found it quite alluring. The third movement was completely berserk, which didn't really appeal to me. I prefer more control from a conductor and the percussion was just too loud which drowned out the other instrumental sections. Accentuating certain sections is fine but when there's one section that drowns out all of the others, I have to just shake my head. The last movement couldn't have been more misshaped. It seems episodic and not organic. There was no natural flow to the music. There were some sections of this movement that just sounded completely scrappy to me and somehow cut up. The string section didn't particularly impress me here. I just found the whole movement choppy and lacking some kind of clear direction. Would I listen to this performance again any time soon? Probably not, but hearing a performance that doesn't do much for me only helps reinforce the performances that I do like and that are near and dear to me.

It is interesting how one piece of music can be performed is so many different ways, don't you think? Perhaps we get so completely attuned to our first encounters that it is difficult to accept different perspectives. I virtually rejected Maazel's Sibelius #4 (Pittsburgh SO) and I wonder if I am simply attuned to the pace of Colin Davis's RCA version?  Things feel strange compared to the template we assimilated. Am I way off here...?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 04, 2015, 09:16:38 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 04, 2015, 08:57:09 PM
It is interesting how one piece of music can be performed is so many different ways, don't you think? Perhaps we get so completely attuned to our first encounters that it is difficult to accept different perspectives. I virtually rejected Maazel's Sibelius #4 (Pittsburgh SO) and I wonder if I am simply attuned to the pace of Colin Davis's RCA version?  Things feel strange compared to the template we assimilated. Am I way off here...?

Since Barbirolli's 2nd, was the first performance I've heard of this symphony, it has kind of stayed with me, but I have found other performances that hit me even more than his and one of them is Andrew Davis' Philharmonia recording on Signum Classics. I don't think you're off the mark at all and would agree that first impressions are often hard to shake, but, of course, what kind of listener would I be if I weren't flexible enough to listen and enjoy other interpretations? When I start finding negatives I don't like about a performance, I begin to realize how important the performances I do enjoy, and love, are to me. This is the only positive to listening to a performance I don't much care for, so, actually a negative becomes a positive. 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 11, 2015, 02:07:05 PM
Elgar:
Nursery Suite
Severn Suite
Suite from "Crown of India"
Coronation March Op 65

Royal Liverpool PO/Groves


First time for these pieces so I listened to them twice over a 24 hour period. Quite interesting that these pieces aren't more popular?  The Nursery Suite was light and pleasant. The Severn Suite did not do much for me (I need to hear it again separately from the rest of these works). The "Crown of India" Suite is enchanting in its oscillation between grace and pompous antics! A surprising delight! The theme and aura of the Coronation March was definitely very catching in its unfolding. My overall impressions of these were very positive!

What do you Elgarians think of these works?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LdyUddQKL.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oiS5FA5hL.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 11, 2015, 03:27:35 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 11, 2015, 02:07:05 PMThe Severn Suite did not do much for me (I need to hear it again separately from the rest of these works).

What do you Elgarians think of these works?

I like The Severn Suite quite a lot, especially the fugue is charming. I have a pretty "crappy" version for brass orchestra and wish to have a better one.

Also have orchestral (Groves, Hickox) and for organ (Butt).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 11, 2015, 05:57:37 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 11, 2015, 02:07:05 PM
Elgar:
Nursery Suite
Severn Suite
Suite from "Crown of India"
Coronation March Op 65

Royal Liverpool PO/Groves


First time for these pieces so I listened to them twice over a 24 hour period. Quite interesting that these pieces aren't more popular?  The Nursery Suite was light and pleasant. The Severn Suite did not do much for me (I need to hear it again separately from the rest of these works). The "Crown of India" Suite is enchanting in its oscillation between grace and pompous antics! A surprising delight! The theme and aura of the Coronation March was definitely very catching in its unfolding. My overall impressions of these were very positive!

What do you Elgarians think of these works?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LdyUddQKL.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oiS5FA5hL.jpg)

I love all of those works. The Severn Suite is a very cool work and surprisingly Hickox's performance is highly recommendable. Yes, Crown of India is quite delightful as well. Nursery Suite is one of my favorites of Elgar's light music (I'm also a sucker for The Wand of Youth Suites I & II). Have you heard the Starlight Express Suite, Peter? This is also right up your alley since you enjoyed these other lighter works.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on February 12, 2015, 11:59:23 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 04, 2015, 08:24:02 PM
Listened to Tate's Symphony No. 2 performance tonight:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/088/MI0001088815.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

My first reaction was this is a strange sounding recording. The string section (very important in Elgar IMHO) is recessed or somehow not balanced enough with the other instrument sections. I thought the first movement was good enough, but not one of the better ones I've heard. The Larghetto was handled beautifully, but I thought it was a bit drawn out for my liking even though I found it quite alluring. The third movement was completely berserk, which didn't really appeal to me. I prefer more control from a conductor and the percussion was just too loud which drowned out the other instrumental sections. Accentuating certain sections is fine but when there's one section that drowns out all of the others, I have to just shake my head. The last movement couldn't have been more misshaped. It seems episodic and not organic. There was no natural flow to the music. There were some sections of this movement that just sounded completely scrappy to me and somehow cut up. The string section didn't particularly impress me here. I just found the whole movement choppy and lacking some kind of clear direction. Would I listen to this performance again any time soon? Probably not, but hearing a performance that doesn't do much for me only helps reinforce the performances that I do like and that are near and dear to me.

John, thanks for sharing your reactions to this.  It's one of the few recordings of Elgar 2nd Symphony (and of the 1st) I haven't heard; it's been on my watch list for some time, but I've always held off purchasing it because of negative reviews I've read elsewhere.  I like Tate's way with Mozart and Haydn generally, but it seems that he just isn't well attuned to Elgar's idiom.

Your comments about Tate's Elgar remind me of my reaction to Bryden Thomson's recordings of the 1st & 2nd.  I used to listen to them quite often, hoping that "this time" I would get what Thomson was doing--but the long-hoped-for revelation never came.  As I recall, his tempi are uniformly sloooowww and plodding throughout, without much in the way of phrase-shaping (of which Barbirolli is a master), and the Chandos acoustics basically turn everything into a big boomy wash of sound.  The two reviewers on Amazon, however, are full of praise, so what do I know?

[asin]B0007SK9ME[/asin]

The two symphonies are also available separately (albeit without Froissart and The Sanguin Fan):

[asin]B000000AE7[/asin]

[asin]B000000AE8[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 12, 2015, 06:10:30 PM
Quote from: jfdrex on February 12, 2015, 11:59:23 AM
John, thanks for sharing your reactions to this.  It's one of the few recordings of Elgar 2nd Symphony (and of the 1st) I haven't heard; it's been on my watch list for some time, but I've always held off purchasing it because of negative reviews I've read elsewhere.  I like Tate's way with Mozart and Haydn generally, but it seems that he just isn't well attuned to Elgar's idiom.

Your comments about Tate's Elgar remind me of my reaction to Bryden Thomson's recordings of the 1st & 2nd.  I used to listen to them quite often, hoping that "this time" I would get what Thomson was doing--but the long-hoped-for revelation never came.  As I recall, his tempi are uniformly sloooowww and plodding throughout, without much in the way of phrase-shaping (of which Barbirolli is a master), and the Chandos acoustics basically turn everything into a big boomy wash of sound.  The two reviewers on Amazon, however, are full of praise, so what do I know?

[asin]B0007SK9ME[/asin]

The two symphonies are also available separately (albeit without Froissart and The Sanguin Fan):

[asin]B000000AE7[/asin]

[asin]B000000AE8[/asin]

Think of this as me 'taking one for the team.' ;) But seriously, I just don't see what the positives are with Tate's Elgar. He certainly lacks the feel I'm accustomed to hearing in Elgar interpretations. I can deal with slower tempi as long as there's a swagger and a bounce to the phrasing, which unfortunately Tate falls short of IMHO. As for Thomson, it's been years since I've listened to any of his Elgar. I don't recall being particularly impressed either. The same goes for Sinopoli.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 13, 2015, 02:31:08 AM
Tate, Thomson,...  ::)

Nobody here seems to care about Elgar's Symphonies on Naxos. For me the first performances I heard of 1 and 2 were these Naxos discs in 1997 and after hearing many other performances I still think they are among the best. Good sound quality, clear balanced performances that bring out what feels right and Elgarian imo. Naxos could have released more Elgar they have, but what they have put out is pretty good imo.

[asin]B00002605G[/asin]

[asin]B00002605I[/asin]

[asin]B00004RC80[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2015, 06:19:24 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 13, 2015, 02:31:08 AM
Tate, Thomson,...  ::)

Nobody here seems to care about Elgar's Symphonies on Naxos. For me the first performances I heard of 1 and 2 were these Naxos discs in 1997 and after hearing many other performances I still think they are among the best. Good sound quality, clear balanced performances that bring out what feels right and Elgarian imo. Naxos could have released more Elgar they have, but what they have put out is pretty good imo.

[asin]B00002605G[/asin]

[asin]B00002605I[/asin]

[asin]B00004RC80[/asin]

George Hurst was a decent conductor as was Downes, but neither could touch Barbirolli or Boult in Elgar IMHO. 'Nuff said. 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 13, 2015, 07:40:13 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2015, 06:19:24 AM
George Hurst was a decent conductor as was Downes, but neither could touch Barbirolli or Boult in Elgar IMHO. 'Nuff said. 8)

So what? In my opinion Elgar's musical structures are clearer in the Naxos discs than in the old Barbirolli / Boult performances. Must be the digital technology... ...Tate is hardly a Barbirolli either. I mean people talk about EVERY Elgar performance in the history, except if it's on Naxos! I never see any Naxos release discussed here, but if it's EMI, any loser conductor gets mentioned. What gives?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2015, 07:50:11 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 13, 2015, 07:40:13 AM
So what? In my opinion Elgar's musical structures are clearer in the Naxos discs than in the old Barbirolli / Boult performances. Must be the digital technology... ...Tate is hardly a Barbirolli either. I mean people talk about EVERY Elgar performance in the history, except if it's on Naxos! I never see any Naxos release discussed here, but if it's EMI, any loser conductor gets mentioned. What gives?

Sounds like you're getting your panties in a wad over nothing here, 71 dB. Sounds like you can't deal with a differing opinion. Naxos has some good recordings, but to completely ignore the rich history of Elgar recordings that have appeared years before those Naxos recording seems strange on your part.

For the record, I never claimed Tate to be a Barbirolli. Stop putting words into my mouth.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 13, 2015, 08:16:41 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2015, 07:50:11 AM
Sounds like you're getting your panties in a wad over nothing here, 71 dB. Sounds like you can't deal with a differing opinion. Naxos has some good recordings, but to completely ignore the rich history of Elgar recordings that have appeared years before those Naxos recording seems strange on your part.

For the record, I never claimed Tate to be a Barbirolli. Stop putting words into my mouth.
It's not about differing opinions. It's about people behaving as if the Naxos performances didn't exist. Very often it happens that people are talking about performances I don't have and I haven't heard while ignoring all those performances I do have and know. It makes me feel an outsider. I always feel an outsider everywhere I go. It is really frustrating when nobody has your frequency. I try to feel the frequency on Elgar threat but I don't. I try to feel the frequency on Tangerine Dream forum but I don't. There is always more differences than similarities with other people. I belong nowhere. It is really hard. Currently I am laid off from work. I hate my job. I feel everything goes wrong despite of my efforts. My hero Edgar Froese died. So, maybe my rant is venting of my frustation. Sorry.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 13, 2015, 08:42:34 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 13, 2015, 07:40:13 AM
So what? In my opinion Elgar's musical structures are clearer in the Naxos discs than in the old Barbirolli / Boult performances. Must be the digital technology... ...Tate is hardly a Barbirolli either. I mean people talk about EVERY Elgar performance in the history, except if it's on Naxos! I never see any Naxos release discussed here, but if it's EMI, any loser conductor gets mentioned. What gives?

I haven't heard these, but I have many other Naxos releases which I enjoy immensely. Most of all Robert Barto's recordings of Weiss (stellar indeed)!  :) as well as a number of other recordings (mostly baroque [Marias, St Columbine]). Most likely I will pick up #1 and #2 one day, although I suspect that I won't search them out. Naxos reminds me a bit of CPO in their efforts to record repertoire, and perhaps that is why I admire the label. They certainly used to be much cheaper in the past....
I actually recently got the 3rd symphony you mentioned in your post but I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 13, 2015, 09:13:16 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 13, 2015, 08:42:34 AM
I haven't heard these, but I have many other Naxos releases which I enjoy immensely. Most of all Robert Barto's recordings of Weiss (stellar indeed)!  :)

I collected the first 5 volumes of Barto's Weiss. Then I asked myself how many volumes I need and stopped collecting. Solo lute music is not perhaps my cup of tea...

Quote from: Moonfish on February 13, 2015, 08:42:34 AMas well as a number of other recordings (mostly baroque [Marias, St Columbine]). Most likely I will pick up #1 and #2 one day, although I suspect that I won't search them out. Naxos reminds me a bit of CPO in their efforts to record repertoire, and perhaps that is why I admire the label. They certainly used to be much cheaper in the past....

Yes, Naxos prices went up some 5 years ago and it's hard to buy the newer releses! The older releases can't be cheaper on Amazon marketplace. I actually managed to buy Tchaikovsky's violin concerto (my first!) by Kaler/Yablonsly on Naxos for £0.01 + shipping => 2,39 euros. I'm looking to getting into Honegger. The Naxos discs of Honegger's 3rd is £2.23 on marketplace, but doesn't ship to Finland!! Very annoying. The cheapest copy to ship outside UK is £3.64. To make things worse, euro has become weak currency thanks to all that Greek financial failures and other problems, so buying from UK has got expensive. German Amazon is not an option because their shipping rates for marketplace is a joke, 8 euros maybe... ...my bank changed my credit card form Visa to Mastercard and that new card isn't working in play.com! Nothing helps! I am so angry! I don't know what to do with Honegger. There are options but I can't choose.

Quote from: Moonfish on February 13, 2015, 08:42:34 AMI actually recently got the 3rd symphony you mentioned in your post but I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet.

It's a very good performance imo and these is no Boult/Barbirolli to compare it against.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 13, 2015, 04:14:53 PM
Hey, 71db, I hope things brighten up for you soon.  :)

Naxos actually has a great collection of Elgar's music, including some important chamber/piano/choir music that isn't as readily available as other works, but they are worth a purchase. Especially hearing Enigma in the composer's own piano transcription...

[asin]B0013JZ4FI[/asin]
[asin]B000GNOHKU[/asin]
[asin]B0007ORDUO[/asin]
[asin]B000H4VZDK[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2015, 06:54:51 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 13, 2015, 08:16:41 AM
It's not about differing opinions. It's about people behaving as if the Naxos performances didn't exist. Very often it happens that people are talking about performances I don't have and I haven't heard while ignoring all those performances I do have and know. It makes me feel an outsider. I always feel an outsider everywhere I go. It is really frustrating when nobody has your frequency. I try to feel the frequency on Elgar threat but I don't. I try to feel the frequency on Tangerine Dream forum but I don't. There is always more differences than similarities with other people. I belong nowhere. It is really hard. Currently I am laid off from work. I hate my job. I feel everything goes wrong despite of my efforts. My hero Edgar Froese died. So, maybe my rant is venting of my frustation. Sorry.

Let me respond to you first by saying that I have no problems with Naxos recordings and actually admire many of their recordings for years now. It seems that you are completely 'pro-Naxos' and that's certainly fine and I applaud your efforts for doing so, but this, however, doesn't mean that I'm not going to listen to the performances with the same critical ears that I have for all other labels just because it's Naxos. I don't really have a preference for labels. I have preferences for the performances and, for me, there are much better performances of Elgar's two symphonies than the Downes and Hurst ones on Naxos.

I understand you're going through a rough patch right now and I do hope it gets better, but there's no need to take anything I'm writing here personally. It's merely one man's opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. Best of luck to you.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 13, 2015, 06:57:26 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 13, 2015, 04:14:53 PM
Hey, 71db, I hope things brighten up for you soon.  :)

Naxos actually has a great collection of Elgar's music, including some important chamber/piano/choir music that isn't as readily available as other works, but they are worth a purchase. Especially hearing Enigma in the composer's own piano transcription...

Interesting! Thanks for posting those Greg! I think I am going to take a closer look at the last recording....  0:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 13, 2015, 07:00:31 PM
Speaking of Elgar on Naxos, this is one of my favorites from their series:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cwny625OL.jpg)

You see, 71 dB, I don't hate Naxos! :P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 14, 2015, 12:46:44 AM
About the Paul Daniel Elgar 3:

Quote from: 71 dB on February 13, 2015, 09:13:16 AM
It's a very good performance imo and these is no Boult/Barbirolli to compare it against.

I've never found the Daniel performance of the the third symphony to be lacking in any sense, and to be honest I'd be quite unable to decide which of the available versions is the 'best' - whatever that might mean - even if I wanted to. As you say, because of the nature of the work, there is no established performance history to compare it against, so the only resistance I found I needed to overcome is the psychological inertia arising from the issue of how much it matters that it's only partly Elgar. For a long time the Naxos disc was the only one I had, and it was the one through which I grew to know the work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 14, 2015, 01:03:23 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nZbiYLLBL.jpg)

Here's another Naxos Elgar disc I've been very fond of. I admit I've been influenced by the story behind the making of the recording (that is, Lamsma's winning of a prize - which was to make a Naxos recording - and her choosing to make an all-Elgar disc). I suppose I think her performance (thinking primarily of the violin sonata) lacks something in delicacy and nuance, but it has a vigour that convinces me to keep listening on its own terms, and I wouldn't want to be without it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 14, 2015, 02:21:27 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 13, 2015, 04:14:53 PM
Hey, 71db, I hope things brighten up for you soon.  :)

Thanks! For some reason I felt very frustyrated yesterday. I'm feeling better today and my posts are hopefully more friendly and relaxed.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 13, 2015, 04:14:53 PMNaxos actually has a great collection of Elgar's music, including some important chamber/piano/choir music that isn't as readily available as other works, but they are worth a purchase. Especially hearing Enigma in the composer's own piano transcription...

[asin]B0013JZ4FI[/asin]
[asin]B000GNOHKU[/asin]
[asin]B0007ORDUO[/asin]
[asin]B000H4VZDK[/asin]
I have all of these. The "Marches" disc is probably my least favorite of these and "Orchestral miniatures" most played.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2015, 06:54:51 PM
Let me respond to you first by saying that I have no problems with Naxos recordings and actually admire many of their recordings for years now. It seems that you are completely 'pro-Naxos' and that's certainly fine and I applaud your efforts for doing so, but this, however, doesn't mean that I'm not going to listen to the performances with the same critical ears that I have for all other labels just because it's Naxos. I don't really have a preference for labels. I have preferences for the performances and, for me, there are much better performances of Elgar's two symphonies than the Downes and Hurst ones on Naxos.

I understand you're going through a rough patch right now and I do hope it gets better, but there's no need to take anything I'm writing here personally. It's merely one man's opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. Best of luck to you.
I don't think I'm completely 'pro-Naxos', but I do own ~500 Naxos discs. Naxos became a gigantic label within a few decades and it's difficult to avoid that label if you enjoy classical music. There are things about Naxos I don't care about so much. Naxos tends of concentrate on certain random projects while ignoring many other fields of classical music. It took Naxos really long to release Fauré's chamber (beyond the violin sonatas) music for example. In the 90's Naxos had one Buxtehude disc (Membra Jesu nostri, which is excellent imo). Then they started to release Buxtehude and it meant a dozen discs within a few years! So, Naxos is a label of unexpected bursts.

Anyway, I have noticed that Naxos performances sound rarely "weird". Naxos concentrates on the music itself rather than the artists and I like that approach, even if the artists aren't always the best ever. At least there is less "diva mentality".

Of course Naxos has the same critical ears listening as other labels. I don't mind if people find certain Naxos releases mediocre or even bad. It was the ignorance of the label's existance that gets on my nerves sometimes.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 13, 2015, 07:00:31 PM
Speaking of Elgar on Naxos, this is one of my favorites from their series:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cwny625OL.jpg)

You see, 71 dB, I don't hate Naxos! :P
Yes, that is a lovely disc indeed! I have played it many times.  ;)

Quote from: Elgarian on February 14, 2015, 12:46:44 AM
About the Paul Daniel Elgar 3:

I've never found the Daniel performance of the the third symphony to be lacking in any sense, and to be honest I'd be quite unable to decide which of the available versions is the 'best' - whatever that might mean - even if I wanted to. As you say, because of the nature of the work, there is no established performance history to compare it against, so the only resistance I found I needed to overcome is the psychological inertia arising from the issue of how much it matters that it's only partly Elgar. For a long time the Naxos disc was the only one I had, and it was the one through which I grew to know the work.

I believe there is no bad performance of Elgar/Payne 3rd out there. Andrew Davis' performance has perhaps more edge and spark while Paul Daniel has a soft silky feel. It depents on the movement, which approach I prefer. These are the 'historical' recordings the future recordings are compared to. All old historical recordings were brand new once.

Quote from: Elgarian on February 14, 2015, 01:03:23 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nZbiYLLBL.jpg)

Here's another Naxos Elgar disc I've been very fond of. I admit I've been influenced by the story behind the making of the recording (that is, Lamsma's winning of a prize - which was to make a Naxos recording - and her choosing to make an all-Elgar disc). I suppose I think her performance (thinking primarily of the violin sonata) lacks something in delicacy and nuance, but it has a vigour that convinces me to keep listening on its own terms, and I wouldn't want to be without it.

Somehow I haven't bought that one yet.   :-X
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 14, 2015, 07:35:11 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 14, 2015, 02:21:27 AMI have all of these. The "Marches" disc is probably my least favorite of these and "Orchestral miniatures" most played.
I don't think I'm completely 'pro-Naxos', but I do own ~500 Naxos discs. Naxos became a gigantic label within a few decades and it's difficult to avoid that label if you enjoy classical music. There are things about Naxos I don't care about so much. Naxos tends of concentrate on certain random projects while ignoring many other fields of classical music. It took Naxos really long to release Fauré's chamber (beyond the violin sonatas) music for example. In the 90's Naxos had one Buxtehude disc (Membra Jesu nostri, which is excellent imo). Then they started to release Buxtehude and it meant a dozen discs within a few years! So, Naxos is a label of unexpected bursts.

Anyway, I have noticed that Naxos performances sound rarely "weird". Naxos concentrates on the music itself rather than the artists and I like that approach, even if the artists aren't always the best ever. At least there is less "diva mentality".

Of course Naxos has the same critical ears listening as other labels. I don't mind if people find certain Naxos releases mediocre or even bad. It was the ignorance of the label's existance that gets on my nerves sometimes.
Yes, that is a lovely disc indeed! I have played it many times.  ;)

Again, for me, it's not about a label, but about the performances and, most important of all, the music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 14, 2015, 07:44:49 AM
Znaider in the Elgar VC with Colin Davis conducting. Any thoughts on this performance? I'm reading some positive reviews but not familiar with the soloist.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 14, 2015, 07:47:49 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 14, 2015, 07:44:49 AM
Znaider in the Elgar VC with Colin Davis conducting. Any thoughts on this performance? I'm reading some positive reviews but not familiar with the soloist.

I think it's one of the more disappointing performances of the VC. It seems all the life is sucked out of the music and Znaider doesn't make a very compelling soloist IMHO. There's just a disconnect in this performance. I highly recommend the Tasmin Little/A. Davis recording on Chandos (if you haven't heard it already). It gets my vote for the best performance of this concerto. Other favorites: both Kennedy recordings (Handley, Rattle) on EMI.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 14, 2015, 08:04:21 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 14, 2015, 07:47:49 AM
I think it's one of the more disappointing performances of the VC. It seems all the life is sucked out of the music and Znaider doesn't make a very compelling soloist IMHO. There's just a disconnect in this performance. I highly recommend the Tasmin Little/A. Davis recording on Chandos (if you haven't heard it already). It gets my vote for the best performance of this concerto. Other favorites: both Kennedy recordings (Handley, Rattle) on EMI.

Thanks, John. I have Kennedy/Rattle and Hilary Hahn's. Will checkout the Tasmin Little, Ive seen it mentioned here before.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 14, 2015, 10:07:50 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 14, 2015, 07:35:11 AM
Again, for me, it's not about a label, but about the performances and, most important of all, the music.

I tend to get fond of certain brands, but the main reason why over 50 % of my classical CDs are Naxos is the price. If only BIS was priced similarly! CPO is another favorite label for me. Very interesting releases + good deals at jpc.de.  :)

My point was Hurst and Downes are scarcely mentioned when people talk about Elgar's symphonies. I see others don't care about those performances but for me these are "essential". I am struggling with Barbirolli because I don't hear clearly all the awesome stuff Elgar has in these symphonies (engineering problem I think but a problem nevertheless). Even David Hill's Gerontius on Naxos is good (not the best, but good) in my opinion and that performance is never mentioned in Gerontius discussions. That's why the most paranoid members may sense anti-Naxos vibes here.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 14, 2015, 10:22:58 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 14, 2015, 10:07:50 AM
I tend to get fond of certain brands, but the main reason why over 50 % of my classical CDs are Naxos is the price. If only BIS was priced similarly! CPO is another favorite label for me. Very interesting releases + good deals at jpc.de.  :)

My point was Hurst and Downes are scarcely mentioned when people talk about Elgar's symphonies. I see others don't care about those performances but for me these are "essential". I am struggling with Barbirolli because I don't hear clearly all the awesome stuff Elgar has in these symphonies (engineering problem I think but a problem nevertheless). Even David Hill's Gerontius on Naxos is good (not the best, but good) in my opinion and that performance is never mentioned in Gerontius discussions. That's why the most paranoid members may sense anti-Naxos vibes here.

Hearing all the awesome stuff in his symphonies is essential, I agree. Which is a large reason for always considering Oramo's 2nd on BIS as a top choice. The 2nd is a score I've never looked at, and I began to hear harmonic lines and certain instruments that I never had heard with other recoridngs, it was as I was listening to the 2nd symphony for the first time. Elgar has a way of weaving melodies and harmonies around the orchestra, passing from one instrument to another. It's truly magical when you begin to experience the depth of these compositions through great audio engineering.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on February 14, 2015, 11:48:47 AM
Speaking of Elgar on the Naxos label, Dong Suk Kang's recording of the Violin Concerto (with Adrian Leaper conducting the Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra) is more than worth the price of admission.  Kang seems to have modeled his interpretation on that of Heifetz, more so than any other contemporary violinists whose recordings I've heard. 

Available paired either with the Cockaigne Overture or with the Sibelius Violin Concerto.

[asin]B0000013SM[/asin]

[asin]B00000146L[/asin]

(In his review, Santa Fe Listener seems to be setting us up for a blind listening test  "It would make a nice quiz to put this recording up against big-name accounts and see which one is preferred if the listening were blindfold.")
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on February 14, 2015, 12:02:14 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 14, 2015, 08:04:21 AM
Will checkout the Tasmin Little...

Greg, for a preview of the Tasmin Little/ Andrew Davis recording, check out their performance of the concerto at the Proms in 2011:

https://www.youtube.com/v/GbeLqE1Pabk
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 14, 2015, 12:05:45 PM
Quote from: jfdrex on February 14, 2015, 11:48:47 AM
Speaking of Elgar on the Naxos label, Dong Suk Kang's recording of the Violin Concerto (with Adrian Leaper conducting the Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra) is more than worth the price of admission.  Kang seems to have modeled his interpretation on that of Heifetz, more so than any other contemporary violinists whose recordings I've heard. 

Very interesting comment! Way back, a few years ago, when we were hammering through a range of discussions about performances of the VC (probably in this thread), Dong Suk Kang was my top recommendation as a very distinctive alternative to my old favourite Hugh Bean. I agree entirely with you: it's a cracking performance. Another Naxos winner to please 71dB.

Tasmin Little (mentioned above) also wins my admiration for a warm, mature reading of the VC.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 14, 2015, 12:17:50 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 14, 2015, 10:22:58 AM
Hearing all the awesome stuff in his symphonies is essential, I agree. Which is a large reason for always considering Oramo's 2nd on BIS as a top choice. The 2nd is a score I've never looked at, and I began to hear harmonic lines and certain instruments that I never had heard with other recoridngs, it was as I was listening to the 2nd symphony for the first time. Elgar has a way of weaving melodies and harmonies around the orchestra, passing from one instrument to another. It's truly magical when you begin to experience the depth of these compositions through great audio engineering.

Thanks for the recommendation! The disc is even a SACD with is a plus.  :)

Quote from: jfdrex on February 14, 2015, 11:48:47 AM
Speaking of Elgar on the Naxos label, Dong Suk Kang's recording of the Violin Concerto (with Adrian Leaper conducting the Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra) is more than worth the price of admission.  Kang seems to have modeled his interpretation on that of Heifetz, more so than any other contemporary violinists whose recordings I've heard. 

[asin]B0000013SM[/asin]

That Naxos disc was my first Elgar CD. My father gave it to me as a Christmas gift in 1997. I had heard Enigma Variations on radio a few weeks earlier and I was talking to everybody how I had discovered this amazingly interesting composer. My father took my enthusiasm as a gift hint. Listening to the Violin Concerto for the first time confirmed it for me: Yes, Elgar is MY composer! So, this Naxos disc has a very special place in my heard. One of the most crucial CDs in my life! Even the cover art is bullseye and orange 'ELGAR' text looks so fresh against the dark blue/white color theme.  8)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 14, 2015, 12:34:30 PM
Tasmin Little has been on my wishlist ever since people here started to rave about it. I try to buy less CDs nowadays so it takes time to purchase all those million releases people recommend. Last year I bought only four Elgar CDs. I just ordered an 8 CD set of Bach's secular cantatas so I am not planning to do massive purchases for a while. There's some last Tangerine Dream releases I'd need to buy. It's not even a money issue. It's time issue. If I keep buying new CDs all the time, I don't have time to listen to all those great CDs cathering dust on my bookshelf. I still have three CDs of the nine CD jpc.de order in plastic wrapping I did last November. :D

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 14, 2015, 03:04:05 PM
Elgar: Sea Pictures             Baker/London SO/Barbirolli

Three times in a row!  8)   
This performance is quite addicting. Is it Baker's passion or is it just that the cadence fits so perfectly with the music itself? I guess we all return to this performance over and over for obvious reasons.  Any other special performances of Sea Pictures out there?

[asin] B000002RX7[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oiS5FA5hL.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 14, 2015, 06:19:18 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 14, 2015, 03:04:05 PM
Elgar: Sea Pictures             Baker/London SO/Barbirolli

Three times in a row!  8)   
This performance is quite addicting. Is it Baker's passion or is it just that the cadence fits so perfectly with the music itself? I guess we all return to this performance over and over for obvious reasons.  Any other special performances of Sea Pictures out there?

[asin] B000002RX7[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oiS5FA5hL.jpg)

It seems that this Baker/Barbirolli performance is the one keeping this work alive and well. 8) I mean, sure, there are some other very good performances out there like the Sarah Connolly performances (both Naxos and Chandos). Bernadette Greevy on EMI w/ Handley and the LPO is also a very good one, but if there was ever a work contributed to Baker, it has to be Sea Pictures. It really doesn't get any better.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 14, 2015, 06:53:18 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 14, 2015, 06:19:18 PM
I mean, sure, there are some other very good performances out there like the Sarah Connolly performances (both Naxos and Chandos)

Oh yes, how could I forget?! This is a very good Naxos disc, great sound as well. Probably my favorite Sea Pictures right behind Baker. And The Music Makers performance is top notch.
[asin]B000JBWUOE[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on February 15, 2015, 09:14:22 AM
The Apostles. Boult (EMI). I think I prefer that version's engulfing vastness and elevation to Hickox's more dramatic ideation.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 15, 2015, 10:00:12 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 14, 2015, 03:04:05 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oiS5FA5hL.jpg)

I listened to disc 5 of this set (Sea Pictures + Cello Concerto) today. Insprired by your post.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 15, 2015, 10:18:51 AM
Quote from: jfdrex on February 14, 2015, 12:02:14 PM
Greg, for a preview of the Tasmin Little/ Andrew Davis recording, check out their performance of the concerto at the Proms in 2011:

https://www.youtube.com/v/GbeLqE1Pabk

Fantastic. My goodness Little is talented, and her control of this piece is amazing. I was tempted to yell Bravo from my living room, but Elgar's ending easily provokes that kind of reaction.
Thanks for posting!

I found a few other videos of Little, performing and being interviewed. She seems like such a humble and joyful person.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 15, 2015, 12:13:55 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 14, 2015, 06:53:18 PM
Oh yes, how could I forget?! This is a very good Naxos disc, great sound as well. Probably my favorite Sea Pictures right behind Baker. And The Music Makers performance is top notch.
[asin]B000JBWUOE[/asin]
And yet, the piece that is twice in length is not even given the smallest of recognition on the cover! That is a travesty!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 15, 2015, 12:17:56 PM
Elgar: Piano Music (Enigma Variations/Dream Children/Sonatina/May Song)            Ashley Wass

A delightful surprise! In particular I was charmed by the short piano pieces (e.g. Sonatina as well as Dream Children) that were light, crisp, romantic and very charming. Perfect for the morning hours. The Enigma Variations were a bit more serious in its tone and thrust. An excellent piece of piano music, but I was still wishing for more of the Sonatina variety.  0:)   

The recording certainly gave me a different perspective on Elgar as I (like most people I presume) am used to the larger symphonic and choral works that dominate in the repertoire/canon. 

A great disk! Thanks for bringing it forward Greg!  :)

[asin] B000H4VZDK[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71yONRScGsL._SL1231_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Albion on February 15, 2015, 01:20:37 PM
The Chandos King Olaf is a significant step up from the EMI version under Handley, chiefly because of the brilliant team of soloists: this is a glorious cantata which should be in the standard repertoire. The new recording of the best pre-Gerontius Elgar choral work (pace Caractacus) deserves wide acclaim - has any other member given it a spin yet?

;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 15, 2015, 01:35:12 PM
Glad to heard you enjoy Elgar's solo piano music Moonfish.  ;)

Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 15, 2015, 12:13:55 PM
And yet, the piece that is twice in length is not even given the smallest of recognition on the cover! That is a travesty!

Well, that's only the extra cardboard around the CD (why Naxos use them with random releases I don't get...) and the "real" cover looks like this:

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 15, 2015, 06:56:23 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 15, 2015, 10:18:51 AM
Fantastic. My goodness Little is talented, and her control of this piece is amazing. I was tempted to yell Bravo from my living room, but Elgar's ending easily provokes that kind of reaction.
Thanks for posting!

I found a few other videos of Little, performing and being interviewed. She seems like such a humble and joyful person.

I've known of Little's talent for years now, especially since she's such a hardcore Delian. 8) You should seek out her recording of Elgar's Violin Concerto with Andrew Davis. It is a stunner.

I love her personality, too. Seems so genuine and down-to-earth. Considering her musical ability, it's nice to know she doesn't suffer from the violin diva syndrome. :)
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on February 15, 2015, 07:49:47 PM
It's good to see more Elgar discussion again! I've aquired many more recordings of Elgar's 1 and 2, it's obsessive music, (like Mahler) because different performances reveal so many aspects of Elgar. I second the Osama E2. It's so different than my other current favorite, Barenboim with the Staatskapelle.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 15, 2015, 07:52:17 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 15, 2015, 07:49:47 PM
It's good to see more Elgar discussion again! I've aquired many more recordings of Elgar's 1 and 2, it's obsessive music, (like Mahler) because different performances reveal so many aspects of Elgar. I second the Osama Oramo E2. It's so different than my other current favorite, Barenboim with the Staatskapelle.

Corrected. 8)
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on February 15, 2015, 11:38:40 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 15, 2015, 07:52:17 PM
Corrected. 8)

Thank you!
This is the second time I got his name wrong!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on February 16, 2015, 12:20:29 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 15, 2015, 12:17:56 PM
Elgar: Piano Music (Enigma Variations/Dream Children/Sonatina/May Song)            Ashley Wass

A delightful surprise! In particular I was charmed by the short piano pieces (e.g. Sonatina as well as Dream Children) that were light, crisp, romantic and very charming. Perfect for the morning hours. The Enigma Variations were a bit more serious in its tone and thrust. An excellent piece of piano music, but I was still wishing for more of the Sonatina variety.  0:)   

The recording certainly gave me a different perspective on Elgar as I (like most people I presume) am used to the larger symphonic and choral works that dominate in the repertoire/canon. 

A great disk! Thanks for bringing it forward Greg!  :)

[asin] B000H4VZDK[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71yONRScGsL._SL1231_.jpg)

I also recommend the ASV cd featuring Maria Garzon playing Elgar piano music.  There's a fair bit of overlap between the Garzon and Wass discs (Enigma Variations, Sonatina, Dream Children), but also some pieces on each disc that aren't on the other.  And it might be fun to compare & contrast the respective pianists in the music that both discs have in common.  (I haven't heard the Wass myself.)

[asin]B00001W088[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 16, 2015, 02:18:54 PM
Quote from: jfdrex on February 16, 2015, 12:20:29 PM
I also recommend the ASV cd featuring Maria Garzon playing Elgar piano music.  There's a fair bit of overlap between the Garzon and Wass discs (Enigma Variations, Sonatina, Dream Children), but also some pieces on each disc that aren't on the other.  And it might be fun to compare & contrast the respective pianists in the music that both discs have in common.  (I haven't heard the Wass myself.)

[asin]B00001W088[/asin]

That sounds interesting Jdfrex! Besides, it is a very affordable journey based on the current MP prices!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on February 17, 2015, 06:01:09 AM
Quote from: jfdrex on February 14, 2015, 11:48:47 AM
Speaking of Elgar on the Naxos label, Dong Suk Kang's recording of the Violin Concerto (with Adrian Leaper conducting the Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra) is more than worth the price of admission.  Kang seems to have modeled his interpretation on that of Heifetz, more so than any other contemporary violinists whose recordings I've heard. 

[asin]B00000146L[/asin]


Aye, and I should not be surprised if it was Alan who suggested this one, back on a time.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on February 17, 2015, 06:01:46 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on February 14, 2015, 12:05:45 PM
Very interesting comment! Way back, a few years ago, when we were hammering through a range of discussions about performances of the VC (probably in this thread), Dong Suk Kang was my top recommendation as a very distinctive alternative to my old favourite Hugh Bean.

You see!  I knew it!  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on February 17, 2015, 06:03:15 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 15, 2015, 12:13:55 PM
And yet, the piece that is twice in length is not even given the smallest of recognition on the cover! That is a travesty!

The apotheosis of hole-in-corner . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 19, 2015, 12:22:18 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2015, 06:01:46 AM
You see!  I knew it!  :)

What particularly impresses me about this feat of memory, Karl, is that at the time I was probably droning on and on and on about it .... but here is evidence that you must have been able to stay awake!

It makes me feel positively buoyant.
Now, as I was saying ... drone drone drone ... drone drone .. drone drone ... drone drone drone ...
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on February 19, 2015, 01:52:19 PM
You've given me an idea for a piece, Alan ....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 19, 2015, 03:35:58 PM
Elgar: Cello Concerto          Sol Gabetta/Danish Radio Symphony Orchestra/Denève

I have never encountered Gabetta before so listening to my favorite cello concerto was definitely a treat. This performance does not fall in the top tier as far as the orchestra is concerned. It seems like Gabetta and the ensemble are not synchronized at times. Regardless, Gabetta is definitely charismatic and passionate as a performer so it was great watching this performance. Is her recording of Elgar's concerto on cd similar?

https://www.youtube.com/v/nN0E6AupTBw
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 19, 2015, 06:02:24 PM
Peter, I can't say I was particularly taken with Gabetta's performance (on record) of Elgar's Cello Concerto, but, then again, she's up against du Pre and that performance is forever imprinted in my mind. Truth be told, I'm not a huge fan of the work and, like I believe 71 dB or Elgarian said, I'm more of an admirer of the Violin Concerto.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 19, 2015, 08:31:47 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 19, 2015, 06:02:24 PM
Peter, I can't say I was particularly taken with Gabetta's performance (on record) of Elgar's Cello Concerto, but, then again, she's up against du Pre and that performance is forever imprinted in my mind. Truth be told, I'm not a huge fan of the work and, like I believe 71 dB or Elgarian said, I'm more of an admirer of the Violin Concerto.

I partially get charmed watching a live performance. Gabetta and her cello seem intertwined as a unique entity as it unfolds the concerto!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 19, 2015, 08:33:43 PM
Elgar: The Spirit of England Op. 80        Cahill/Collins/Rolfe-Johnson/Howell/Scottish National Orchestra and Chorus [Currie]/Gibson

I drove home this evening while blasting "The Spirit of England". Cahill's voice must have tempered the minds of all my fellow commuters as she brought Elgar's light to our commuter darkness.  0:)     Such a great recording!

[asin] B000000A9N[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 20, 2015, 02:52:59 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 19, 2015, 06:02:24 PM
Truth be told, I'm not a huge fan of the Cello Concerto and, like I believe 71 dB or Elgarian said, I'm more of an admirer of the Violin Concerto.

The first performance of the Cello Concerto I heard was Kliegel on Naxos and it feld too different (austere) from the Violin Concerto. I was a bit surprised as I knew the Cello Concerto is one of Elgar's most popular works. Later I bought du Pré/Barbirolli and heard a more 'energetic' performance of the work. I think I have learned to appreciate the Cello Concerto more over the years, but the Violin Concerto is still a superior work of the two for me.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on February 21, 2015, 09:45:56 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 19, 2015, 08:33:43 PM
Elgar: The Spirit of England Op. 80        Cahill/Collins/Rolfe-Johnson/Howell/Scottish National Orchestra and Chorus [Currie]/Gibson

I drove home this evening while blasting "The Spirit of England". Cahill's voice must have tempered the minds of all my fellow commuters as she brought Elgar's light to our commuter darkness.  0:)     Such a great recording!

[asin] B000000A9N[/asin]

I have lots of memories of making that recording, I was in Choir. We were all thrilled to the soles of our feet hearing Cahill soaring in the generous acoustic of Paisley Abbey. But Although we had rehearsed the Anthem's sections, I was stunned when I heard the orchestra for the first time as the setting of Land of Hope and Glory started up. We had a terrific pianist in rehearsal who could sound like a whole orchestra, but even he could not compete with that experience in that building. It was really thrilling and we did not mind at all repeating sections. In fact, the overall rehearsals had been scant and we had to be at the top of our game to provide what we did.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on February 21, 2015, 09:52:42 AM
I bought the BBC Music Mag for March 15. It has Boulez on the front. The April 15 will have a CD on it including Bax, Stanford......and a recording of Elgar's Sea Pictures. No hints have been provided as to performers.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on February 21, 2015, 04:37:50 PM
Back-of-the-envelope impression of The Crown of India:  In his liner notes, Andrew Neill does not shy from citing Nalini Ghuman's description of the masque as a profoundly embarrassing piece.  Which is probably technically (or, politically) correct.

Musically, there is nothing to embarrass Elgar at all;  I find it thoroughly enjoyable, and often exquisite.  Those of us who enjoy (say) Prokofiev's Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution and the Shostakovich Second & Third Symphonies in spite of the embarrassing texts will find no musical offense here, barring any aversion to melodrama.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 21, 2015, 04:45:29 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 21, 2015, 04:37:50 PM
Back-of-the-envelope impression of The Crown of India:  In his liner notes, Andrew Neill does not shy from citing Nalini Ghuman's description of the masque as a profoundly embarrassing piece.  Which is probably technically (or, politically) correct.

Musically, there is nothing to embarrass Elgar at all;  I find it thoroughly enjoyable, and often exquisite.  Those of us who enjoy (say) Prokofiev's Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution and the Shostakovich Second & Third Symphonies in spite of the embarrassing texts will find no musical offense here, barring any aversion to melodrama.

You had me at Prokofiev's Cantata.

Thank you for your thoughts, Karl.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on February 21, 2015, 05:35:48 PM
Quote from: knight66 on February 21, 2015, 09:45:56 AM
I have lots of memories of making that recording, I was in Choir. We were all thrilled to the soles of our feet hearing Cahill soaring in the generous acoustic of Paisley Abbey. But Although we had rehearsed the Anthem's sections, I was stunned when I heard the orchestra for the first time as the setting of Land of Hope and Glory started up. We had a terrific pianist in rehearsal who could sound like a whole orchestra, but even he could not compete with that experience in that building. It was really thrilling and we did not mind at all repeating sections. In fact, the overall rehearsals had been scant and we had to be at the top of our game to provide what we did.

Mike

I have that recording... fantastic memories, Mike !!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hiker on February 22, 2015, 10:30:30 AM
My thanks to Elgarian and other forum members for making this such an interesting and enlightening thread. It has prompted me to explore Elgar's work and unearth some nuggets other than his cello concerto.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on February 22, 2015, 11:09:26 AM
Quote from: André on February 21, 2015, 05:35:48 PM
I have that recording... fantastic memories, Mike !!

Thanks Andre.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on February 22, 2015, 11:31:33 AM
Discs 16 and 17 of the Boult Box. In the South, Froissart, Falstaff, Enigma, P&C. That 1955 Falstaff is terrific: playing, interpretation, even sound - everything sizzles here. The P&C are perfunctorily played, not a match for the later, sunnier version. Enigma is excellent, with Boult's longest, most drawn out Nimrod (almost 2minutes faster than his 1930s version).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 22, 2015, 06:37:33 PM
Quote from: Hiker on February 22, 2015, 10:30:30 AM
My thanks to Elgarian and other forum members for making this such an interesting and enlightening thread. It has prompted me to explore Elgar's work and unearth some nuggets other than his cello concerto.

Don't think I've ever seen you on this forum before. Welcome fellow Elgarian!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 23, 2015, 12:06:53 AM
Elgar passed away today Feb 23rd back in 1934 (81 years ago). I am thankful for his musical legacy and thought that his 'Sospiri' would be an appropriate way to begin the day. I think I am going to listen to plenty of Elgar today!   0:)

LSO/Hickox

https://www.youtube.com/v/1btcxeRj47Q
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 23, 2015, 12:51:11 AM
Quote from: Hiker on February 22, 2015, 10:30:30 AM
My thanks to Elgarian and other forum members for making this such an interesting and enlightening thread. It has prompted me to explore Elgar's work and unearth some nuggets other than his cello concerto.

What a nice thing to say. Thanks. We've had a lot of good companionship in this thread over the years.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 23, 2015, 12:54:26 AM
Quote from: knight66 on February 21, 2015, 09:45:56 AM
I have lots of memories of making that recording, I was in Choir. We were all thrilled to the soles of our feet hearing Cahill soaring in the generous acoustic of Paisley Abbey. But Although we had rehearsed the Anthem's sections, I was stunned when I heard the orchestra for the first time as the setting of Land of Hope and Glory started up. We had a terrific pianist in rehearsal who could sound like a whole orchestra, but even he could not compete with that experience in that building. It was really thrilling and we did not mind at all repeating sections. In fact, the overall rehearsals had been scant and we had to be at the top of our game to provide what we did.

Mike

Helene Hanff used to talk about the special quality of 'i-was-there' books, and here we have an equivalent - the 'i-was-there' post! What a fantastic recording to have been part of, Mike. It enriched my life very significantly, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 23, 2015, 01:08:51 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 23, 2015, 12:06:53 AM
Elgar passed away today Feb 23rd back in 1934 (81 years ago). I am thankful for his musical legacy and thought that his 'Sospiri' would be an appropriate way to begin the day. I think I am going to listen to plenty of Elgar today!

One of the wonderful things about art of any kind - in this case music - is that it permits a special kind of communication between listener and artist that isn't possible any other way, even though the energy can only flow one way (from musician to listener). For me there's been a special personal sympathy involved in the case of Elgar for over 50 years. I've saturated myself in his music for so long that he's like a constant companion, ever present, influencing the way I experience the English landscape no less strongly than a painter might do (eg Constable, Turner, Palmer etc). Those famous quotes about 'the trees singing my music, or are they singing mine?', and his talking to the orchestra about 'playing this like something you heard down by the river' are spot on. I find it really can feel like that. Cezanne talked about painting as a 'harmony parallel to nature' and Elgar's music can often seem to have the same effect: not like nature, but somehow, and very personally, parallel to it.

So thank you for reminding us that he left us 81 years ago today. What a legacy to leave behind. What a huge difference he made to my life.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Beaumarchais on February 23, 2015, 01:09:18 AM
I am amazed that this subject has run to 137 pages although I have enjoyed reading some of the barbed comments from pro and not-so-pro Elgarians. When I was younger (very much younger) back in the good old days of vinyl, I became a fervent admirer of Elgar with recordings of the Violin Concerto, the symphonies, the Enigma etc. etc.  As time passed, however, my suspicion that the symphonies were grossly overblown was confirmed when I read Sir Thomas Beecham's comment that the 1st reminded him of the musical equivalent of St. Pancras Station. Although Sir Thomas was noted for his outrageous but not entirely and untrue remarks remarks on music, I saw at once what my subconscious had been trying to suppress and I haven't listened to them since. The one piece that for me stands above all others in Elgar's orchestral output, the Enigma Variations, I never tire of hearing. I place it at the forefront of the English repertoire.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 23, 2015, 02:15:46 AM
Quote from: Beaumarchais on February 23, 2015, 01:09:18 AM
Sir Thomas Beecham's comment that the 1st reminded him of the musical equivalent of St. Pancras Station.

Sir Thomas Beecham is not God. Sorry to hear you can't enjoy the symphonies anymore.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 23, 2015, 08:45:05 AM
Quote from: Beaumarchais on February 23, 2015, 01:09:18 AM
As time passed, however, my suspicion that the symphonies were grossly overblown was confirmed when I read Sir Thomas Beecham's comment that the 1st reminded him of the musical equivalent of St. Pancras Station. Although Sir Thomas was noted for his outrageous but not entirely and untrue remarks remarks on music, I saw at once what my subconscious had been trying to suppress and I haven't listened to them since.

May I quibble? I do understand that both you and Sir Thomas respond similarly to the symphonies, and it's the kind of comment that's not uncommonly made about them. They do (particularly the 1st) inescapably carry with them something of the period Zeitgeist, and that turns many people off, permanently. Indeed I myself experience related problems elsewhere, and usually can't get past it. But I tend to find that when it happens to me, it seems to be more a problem of 'the beholder's share', rather than one intrinsic to the music.

So when you describe the symphonies themselves as being 'grossly overblown', I have to wonder about that. I can't hear them as overblown, not even slightly. I've never heard it, or even suspected a whiff of it, in 50 years of listening. I never find myself wishing there was more of this, or less of that. I'd like to make clear that I'm not suggesting I'm right and you're wrong. You know what you know and you like what you like, and there's an end on't. But do you think that in describing them as 'grossly overblown' you're telling us about something intrinsic to the symphonies, or about how your personal preferences incline you to respond to them? If the latter, then I nod in sympathetic understanding. If the former, then I respectfully disagree with both you and Sir Thomas.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Beaumarchais on February 23, 2015, 10:51:41 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on February 23, 2015, 08:45:05 AM
May I quibble? I do understand that both you and Sir Thomas respond similarly to the symphonies, and it's the kind of comment that's not uncommonly made about them. They do (particularly the 1st) inescapably carry with them something of the period Zeitgeist, and that turns many people off, permanently. Indeed I myself experience related problems elsewhere, and usually can't get past it. But I tend to find that when it happens to me, it seems to be more a problem of 'the beholder's share', rather than one intrinsic to the music.

So when you describe the symphonies themselves as being 'grossly overblown', I have to wonder about that. I can't hear them as overblown, not even slightly. I've never heard it, or even suspected a whiff of it, in 50 years of listening. I never find myself wishing there was more of this, or less of that. I'd like to make clear that I'm not suggesting I'm right and you're wrong. You know what you know and you like what you like, and there's an end on't. But do you think that in describing them as 'grossly overblown' you're telling us about something intrinsic to the symphonies, or about how your personal preferences incline you to respond to them? If the latter, then I nod in sympathetic understanding. If the former, then I respectfully disagree with both you and Sir Thomas.

I should point out that I reached my conclusion on the symphonies after repeated listenings and that it gradually dawned on me that they were portentous, which is another way of saying overblown.
Overblown has several connotations among which are: overwritten, extravagant, florid, grandiose, pompous, over-elaborate, flowery, overwrought, overripe, pretentious, high-flown, turgid, bombastic, oratorical, grandiloquent, magniloquent, orotund. It is a matter of choice which epithet one chooses but to my mind 'turgid' seems appropriate in relation to both works.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on February 23, 2015, 10:55:12 AM
I think that, in comparison to (say) a Haydn symphony, they are grander.  Which denigrates neither "Papa" nor Elgar.

QuoteIt is a matter of choice which epithet one chooses [...]

Not merely choice but a matter of disinclination, I think.  I decline to choose any of those rather hostile adjectives, thanks.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 23, 2015, 11:48:51 AM
Quote from: Beaumarchais on February 23, 2015, 10:51:41 AM
I should point out that I reached my conclusion on the symphonies after repeated listenings and that it gradually dawned on me that they were portentous, which is another way of saying overblown.
Overblown has several connotations among which are: overwritten, extravagant, florid, grandiose, pompous, over-elaborate, flowery, overwrought, overripe, pretentious, high-flown, turgid, bombastic, oratorical, grandiloquent, magniloquent, orotund. It is a matter of choice which epithet one chooses but to my mind 'turgid' seems appropriate in relation to both works.

Okay, so you don't like the symphonies. So what? Why would you even feel the need to broadcast it amongst many others who do on the composer's own thread?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 23, 2015, 12:03:41 PM
Quote from: Beaumarchais on February 23, 2015, 10:51:41 AM
I should point out that I reached my conclusion on the symphonies after repeated listenings and that it gradually dawned on me that they were portentous, which is another way of saying overblown.
Overblown has several connotations among which are: overwritten, extravagant, florid, grandiose, pompous, over-elaborate, flowery, overwrought, overripe, pretentious, high-flown, turgid, bombastic, oratorical, grandiloquent, magniloquent, orotund. It is a matter of choice which epithet one chooses but to my mind 'turgid' seems appropriate in relation to both works.

I do understand that a variety of adjectives can be summoned as alternatives to 'overblown', but I can't help observing that you didn't answer my question.

The thing is - we can all dislike a piece of music for a whole raft of reasons; but if we don't try to distinguish between the intrinsic nature of the music and our own 'listener's share', then I'm not sure that we're doing anything more significant than comparing our fondness, or otherwise, for bananas. Not that such a debate may not be entertaining (especially if Karl were involved in it); but among all the fun I think we'd discover more about ourselves than about bananas.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hiker on February 23, 2015, 02:16:40 PM
Beecham could not be more wrong. It's definitely Paddington.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 23, 2015, 03:25:09 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 23, 2015, 11:48:51 AM
Okay, so you don't like the symphonies. So what? Why would you even feel the need to broadcast it amongst many others who do on the composer's own thread?

Because we are mistaken and we are wrong thinking those symphonies are any good. All that pleasure we have had listening to them has been a delusion. We should admit Elgar was a bad composer who didn't know how to write proper symphonies so he wrote those overblown earsores instead. It's important some besserwissers come online to tell us the music we enjoy isn't really good and we should stop enjoying it. Otherwise we enjoy THE WRONG MUSIC the rest of our pathetic life.

::)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 23, 2015, 03:59:03 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 23, 2015, 03:25:09 PM
Because we are mistaken and we are wrong thinking those symphonies are any good. All that pleasure we have had listening to them has been a delusion. We should admit Elgar was a bad composer who didn't know how to write proper symphonies so he wrote those overblown earsores instead. It's important some besserwissers come online to tell us the music we enjoy isn't really good and we should stop enjoying it. Otherwise we enjoy THE WRONG MUSIC the rest of our pathetic life.

::)

I love listening to 'wrong music.' It makes the days go by. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on February 23, 2015, 05:30:09 PM
I have just finished the 19-disc Boult box. Probably the most engrossing single composer-interpreter box I have come across. 3 Alassios -2 VC, 3 VcelloC, 2 Symph 1, 3 symph 2, 2 Falstaffs, 4 Enigmas or is it the other way around ?  ;)

In any case, no single composer compilation is more engrossing that this one, pairing as it does the Bocuse of English chefs in his repertory of choice. Hurrah E.D.U !! Among 1900-1950 composers, only Mahler, RVW, Ravel and Sibelius are worthy of the same praise.

That being said, I think I can understand the underlying current running through Beaumarchais' list of epithets. I *did* experience a bit of listening fatigue when listening to the outer movements (esp. the finale) of the 2nd symphony. But you know what? That feeling came in reverse order of listening, from the most recent to the oldest versions. IOW the faster (older) the version, the more "overwritten" and "oratorical" it came across. Thence, the wiser, older, slower, more amicable and smiling Boult felt just right compared to his faster, more impatient (true, I admit) self from 30 years ago.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 23, 2015, 11:45:46 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 23, 2015, 03:59:03 PM
I love listening to 'wrong music.' It makes the days go by. ;) ;D

Nice one. Made me chuckle.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 23, 2015, 11:51:00 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 23, 2015, 03:25:09 PM
It's important some besserwissers come online to tell us the music we enjoy isn't really good and we should stop enjoying it. Otherwise we enjoy THE WRONG MUSIC the rest of our pathetic life.

So did this. Good morning chaps, and nobilmente does it!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Beaumarchais on February 24, 2015, 01:13:16 AM
My comments on Elgar's symphonies were made in response to the original poster's request for opinions on the composer's music and which also points out that a previous attempt led to a less than objective assessment:

Now, let me say from the outset that I sincerely hope we can have a thread to discuss the life and works of this composer (as we do for so many others), without the insane bickering and backbiting that caused the 'Sir Edward Elgar' thread to get locked. We've been there, done that - let's move on.

At no point have I suggested that the symphonies should not be enjoyed by others or that my opinion is anything other than my own, with the exception of the late Sir Thomas Beecham, and if you think that the symphonies are splendid that's fine by me.
As I have pointed out, there are works by Elgar that I have admiration for and thoroughly enjoy but the symphonies are not among them.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 24, 2015, 01:25:21 AM
I guess one thing learned from this thread is... Nobody puts Elgar in the corner.  0:)

Or more accurately... Nobody puts Elgar's symphonies in the corner.  $:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on February 24, 2015, 02:52:02 AM
Quote from: Beaumarchais on February 24, 2015, 01:13:16 AM
As I have pointed out, there are works by Elgar that I have admiration for and thoroughly enjoy but the symphonies are not among them.

Fairly spoken;  and I can understand this.  I was a while warming to the symphonies myself.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 24, 2015, 06:11:33 AM
Quote from: Beaumarchais on February 24, 2015, 01:13:16 AM
there are works by Elgar that I have admiration for and thoroughly enjoy but the symphonies are not among them.

Ah, different matter entirely. No one (certainly not I) could sensibly quibble with this statement.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 24, 2015, 06:56:49 AM
Quote from: Beaumarchais on February 24, 2015, 01:13:16 AMAs I have pointed out, there are works by Elgar that I have admiration for and thoroughly enjoy but the symphonies are not among them.

Fair enough. How about discussing the works of Elgar's that you do enjoy then? Wouldn't you agree this would be a more positive approach and encourage discussion rather than simply saying you dislike this or that work?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Beaumarchais on February 24, 2015, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 24, 2015, 06:56:49 AM
Fair enough. How about discussing the works of Elgar's that you do enjoy then? Wouldn't you agree this would be a more positive approach and encourage discussion rather than simply saying you dislike this or that work?

I would be pleased to discuss those works that I enjoy and they include the Serenade for Strings which is given a heartfelt performance here:

http://youtu.be/U7OepiN7zgY

Apart from the Enigma Variations, other's include:

The Wand of Youth Suite No.2

Sea Pictures

Overture In the South

Pomp and Circumstance marches

Overture Cockaigne

Chanson de Matin

Salut d'amour

As can be seen, I prefer Elgar's shorter works to his large scale compositions which, in my view, are
unsustainable. I'm not referring here to his large scale choral compositions such as Gerontius, The Apostles etc. that may be of a different order and of which I have no experience but strictly to his orchestral works.
In saying that, I consider The Enigma Variations to be one of the greatest compositions ever written.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 24, 2015, 11:19:32 AM
Quote from: Beaumarchais on February 24, 2015, 10:23:03 AMI prefer Elgar's shorter works to his large scale compositions which, in my view, are unsustainable.

;D

What Late Romantic symphonies are sustainable in your opinion?

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Christo on February 24, 2015, 11:44:59 AM
 :D Sustainability is a fine criterium. Obvious candidates are Strauss' Alpine Symphony (Eine Alphensymphonie), Hausegger's Nature Symphony (Natursymphonie), and about the complete Raff cycle (who, as a Swiss composer, had practically no way of escape from the theme).  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Beaumarchais on February 24, 2015, 01:46:57 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 24, 2015, 11:19:32 AM
;D

What Late Romantic symphonies are sustainable in your opinion?

Sarge

Well first and foremost, Richard Strauss's Eine Alpensinfonie followed by Gustav Mahler's Symphonies Nos. 5, 6 & 8 but we must not forget Rachmaninoff's symphonies 1 & 2, of which I prefer No.1. I might also add a particularly personal favourite in Saint Saens mighty Symphony No.3 and the Sibelius symphonies Nos. 1,2,5 and 7.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on February 24, 2015, 02:54:57 PM
Errm, is this the Elgar thread or is it mutating into something else...?  ???
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 24, 2015, 03:04:06 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 24, 2015, 02:54:57 PM
Errm, is this the Elgar thread or is it mutating into something else...?  ???

Excellent question. I'm not happy with the direction this thread has taken either. Let's get back to Elgar people.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Christo on February 24, 2015, 10:45:50 PM
This isn't either, is it?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5155%2B2qGeJL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 25, 2015, 12:09:11 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 24, 2015, 02:54:57 PM
Errm, is this the Elgar thread or is it mutating into something else...?  ???

Enigma Mutations...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 25, 2015, 12:58:45 AM
Quote from: André on February 23, 2015, 05:30:09 PM
I have just finished the 19-disc Boult box. Probably the most engrossing single composer-interpreter box I have come across. 3 Alassios -2 VC, 3 VcelloC, 2 Symph 1, 3 symph 2, 2 Falstaffs, 4 Enigmas or is it the other way around ?  ;)

In any case, no single composer compilation is more engrossing that this one, pairing as it does the Bocuse of English chefs in his repertory of choice. Hurrah E.D.U !! Among 1900-1950 composers, only Mahler, RVW, Ravel and Sibelius are worthy of the same praise.

I've been trying to avoid buying this box ("too-many-CDs fatigue syndrome" coupled with some already-owned duplications), but reading these comments and looking at the low price of it I'm thinking maybe I might invest in it after all. Thanks for such a strong recommendation.

QuoteThat being said, I think I can understand the underlying current running through Beaumarchais' list of epithets. I *did* experience a bit of listening fatigue when listening to the outer movements (esp. the finale) of the 2nd symphony.

That tends to happen to me if I listen in concentrated measure to a lot of works by any single composer - yes, even including Elgar. I abandoned my 'listening to all the symphonies of Haydn' project on the grounds of sheer weariness. Sometimes, despite Der Ring being close to my tippety-top of all my tippety tops, Wagner can seem just too-much-of-what-it-is and becomes impenetrable. So much depends on 'the listener's share', and that's a very variable commodity, from day to day, month to month, and year to year.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 25, 2015, 03:18:03 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on February 24, 2015, 02:54:57 PM
Errm, is this the Elgar thread or is it mutating into something else...?  ???

No, it isn't mutating. My question is relevant to the topic we're discussing. I want to better understand Beaumarchais' dislike of the Elgar Symphonies; better understand why he characterizes the symphonies as overblown and unsustainable.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 25, 2015, 03:28:55 AM
Quote from: Beaumarchais on February 24, 2015, 01:46:57 PM
Well first and foremost, Richard Strauss's Eine Alpensinfonie followed by Gustav Mahler's Symphonies Nos. 5, 6 & 8 but we must not forget Rachmaninoff's symphonies 1 & 2, of which I prefer No.1. I might also add a particularly personal favourite in Saint Saens mighty Symphony No.3 and the Sibelius symphonies Nos. 1,2,5 and 7.

Okay, so it isn't a general dislike of the Late Romantic style that turns you off Elgar. I must say I'm surprised by your list: Elgar 1 overblown in your opinion but not Mahler 8 (a work even many dedicated Mahlerites can't abide) or the infamous Alpensinfonie?

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on February 25, 2015, 05:01:50 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 25, 2015, 03:28:55 AM
Okay, so it isn't a general dislike of the Late Romantic style that turns you off Elgar. I must say I'm surprised by your list: Elgar 1 overblown in your opinion but not Mahler 8 (a work even many dedicated Mahlerites can't abide) or the infamous Alpensinfonie?

Sarge

I'm also mildly surprised at his characterizing the Sibelius Opp. 82 & 105 as Late Romantic symphonies
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 25, 2015, 06:25:47 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 25, 2015, 03:28:55 AM
Okay, so it isn't a general dislike of the Late Romantic style that turns you off Elgar. I must say I'm surprised by your list: Elgar 1 overblown in your opinion but not Mahler 8 (a work even many dedicated Mahlerites can't abide) or the infamous Alpensinfonie?

Sarge

Yes, they're opinion of Elgar's symphonies being 'overblown' contradicts many of their choices from above.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on February 25, 2015, 10:00:02 AM
I've been following GMG for awhile but this is my first post.

First, a shout-out to Elgarian who, unbeknownst to him at the time, shepherded me through a discovery of the music of Handel.  It's nice to find him--and the rest of you--here on the Elgar thread as I've begun to find my way back to his music.  I've collected classical music for 40+ years, and have had a fair representation of Elgar therein all along, but I never really began listening to his music until recently.  Being an Anglophile, I've long had a love of music from UK composers, especially Vaughan Williams, Moeran, and Finzi, but Elgar, for whatever reason, just didn't click for me.

Well, surprise, surprise... Thanks to two performances of two works, I'm discovering the wonders of Elgar, seemingly for the first time.  The first is the Violin Concerto via a Proms performance on Youtube with Nigel Kennedy and the BBC Concert Orchestra conducted by Paul Daniel.  Wow.  I know Kennedy can be an acquired taste among music lovers but this performance just blows me away (a term I don't use too often).  Over and above the sheer beauty of the tone Kennedy produces and his (to my ears) flawless technique, he communicates a depth and profundity in this piece that I never experienced in the recording I've long had in my collection by Chung and Solti.  I've encountered opinion in the past placing the Elgar concerto in the ranks of those by Beethoven, Brahms, and Sibelius but I never understood that until now.  Extraordinary.

Second is the Piano Quintet performed by Ian Brown and the Sorrel Quartet.  This is a piece by Elgar that I did not know, so I'm in no position to speak to the qualities--or lack thereof--of the performance, but the music itself, again, just blows me away.  For me, the piano quintet as a genre has pretty much been Schumann and Brahms and, occasionally, Shostakovich.  That's expanded now to include Elgar.  The quintet is, at this moment, my favorite of his chamber pieces.

I'm still learning Elgar's music; it's early for me to provide much in the way of specifics about to what and how and why I'm responding in what I'm hearing--that will come with repeated listening.  What I do know is that at this point in my life, Elgar has struck the proverbial chord within me.  This is one of the great gifts of collecting classical music: even after years of listening you can make discoveries that open entirely new vistas of experience.

I'm learning much as I make my way through the 130+ pages of entries in this thread.  My thanks to all of you for the guidance you're providing and I look forward to continuing the conversation.   
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Beaumarchais on February 25, 2015, 10:25:49 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 25, 2015, 03:28:55 AM
Okay, so it isn't a general dislike of the Late Romantic style that turns you off Elgar. I must say I'm surprised by your list: Elgar 1 overblown in your opinion but not Mahler 8 (a work even many dedicated Mahlerites can't abide) or the infamous Alpensinfonie?

Sarge

I agree Sarge that the so-called Symphony of a Thousand is perhaps more of a challenge for the listener as it's a long way fromthe 1st to the 8th and beyond. Admittedly I heard it only once when a colleague wanted to show off his audio system but I was very impressed with the music. Perhaps I should have included the 2nd instead as I have seen it performed a number of times in concert.
To my mind the Alpine Symphony epitomises late romanticism and has been a personal favourite for years
and here's why:

http://youtu.be/xK7z2NhUrsQ
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Beaumarchais on February 25, 2015, 10:34:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 25, 2015, 05:01:50 AM
I'm also mildly surprised at his characterizing the Sibelius Opp. 82 & 105 as Late Romantic symphonies

As you probably know Karl, Sibelius is generally characterised as a late romantic. The 5th was written in 1915, the same year as the Alpine Symphony and the 7th in 1924. I don't hear a radical departure from his earlier symphonic output.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 25, 2015, 10:38:40 AM
Quote from: Beaumarchais on February 25, 2015, 10:25:49 AM
I agree Sarge that the so-called Symphony of a Thousand is perhaps more of a challenge for the listener as it's a long way fromthe 1st to the 8th and beyond. Admittedly I heard it only once when a colleague wanted to show off his audio system but I was very impressed with the music. Perhaps I should have included the 2nd instead as I have seen it performed a number of times in concert.
To my mind the Alpine Symphony epitomises late romanticism and has been a personal favourite for years
and here's why:

http://youtu.be/xK7z2NhUrsQ

Yes!
I know I've posted this clip before, even on Twitter I believe. It truly is some of the most magnificent music, and "On The Summit" is the epitome of that magnificence.
Nice pick, Beaumarchais.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Beaumarchais on February 25, 2015, 10:57:49 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 25, 2015, 06:25:47 AM
Yes, they're opinion of Elgar's symphonies being 'overblown' contradicts many of their choices from above.

Well Mirror I'm sorry that once again the subject of the thread has strayed into other territory, I suppose it's an inevitable consequence where comparisons are being made. Regarding the contradiction, I have to say that it lies in the ear of the listener. My views on Elgar and other composers mentioned, and notwithstanding Sir Thomas Beecham, are my own and made in the knowledge that others may disagree.
Incidentally, Delius is where Sir Thomas and I part company as he was the foremost champion of the composer's work and, apart from La Calinda, I don't much care for Delius's music.
Sir Thomas said he was intrigued by it as it was like a wayward woman and he was determined to tame it.
I have never had much time for wayward women and have usually preferred to leave them to it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hiker on February 25, 2015, 11:11:05 AM
On reflection, it seems that Beecham wasn't the only one to associate Elgar's Symphony No.1 with an imposing slab of architecture. In Greystoke: The Legend of Tarzan, Lord of the Apes (1984), the piece is intimately associated with the family seat of Greystoke (Floors Castle in Scotland). I will always be grateful to the film for acquainting me with the symphony.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Beaumarchais on February 25, 2015, 11:12:50 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 25, 2015, 10:38:40 AM
Yes!
I know I've posted this clip before, even on Twitter I believe. It truly is some of the most magnificent music, and "On The Summit" is the epitome of that magnificence.
Nice pick, Beaumarchais.

Thanks, I was astounded when the Berlin Phil. posted the clip on Youtube, because I had heard numerous recordings of the Alpine and never dreamt that anyone would match Karajan let alone surpass him in this work. I and many others pleaded with the orchestra's management to release the whole performance on CD
or at least on Youtube, but for contractural reasons it was only available on subscription from Berlin ; a lengthy and frustrating process.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 25, 2015, 11:20:36 AM
Could someone please explain to me what is meant by 'unsustainable' in the context of Elgar's symphonies?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on February 25, 2015, 11:24:05 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on February 25, 2015, 11:20:36 AM
Could someone please explain to me what is meant by 'unsustainable' in the context of Elgar's symphonies?
Perhaps Beaumarchais has measured their carbon footprint.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on February 25, 2015, 11:24:57 AM
I actually find with Elgar something similar to Brahms — I mean compositionally, rather than anything on the musical surface, since the "sound" of the two composers' voices is unmistakably distinct — which is that, while the tenor and (perhaps this word will do) manner of the music suggest the world of Romanticism, and thus a kind of license, even perhaps (at times) of "going on rather a bit," when one examines the scores, there is an economy of design and a directness of purpose which are refreshingly "lean" and Classical.

Well, and what do I mean by this?  That there is a "contradiction" between the construction and the musical "matter"?  No;  but that in the case of both composers, the strength of the work is the overlay of the apparent liberty of the musical essence upon a solid skeleton of watertight (sorry to mix my metaphors) compositional construction.

And it is this understanding of the music which creates probably insurmountable difficulty for me in twigging what one can mean, by suggesting that the larger works are somehow "unsustainable."
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 25, 2015, 11:48:15 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on February 25, 2015, 11:20:36 AM
Could someone please explain to me what is meant by 'unsustainable' in the context of Elgar's symphonies?
I second your question. I still can't get my head around what is meant by overblown, how it relates to sustainability, and then the context of the other works that are sustainable (where Elgar is not) and I guess not overblown (which the Elgar apparently is). In all honesty, I simply don't understand the point Beaumarchais is trying to make. I get that he isn't a fan (at least, I think that is what he's saying), but beyond that, I am lost. And it's the terminology that is throwing me I think.

I think the other problem I am having is this terminology is descriptive, but not precise. If I am playing and the conductor says, hey sax player, stop playing so overblown, I wouldn't know how to translate that comment into the sound coming out of the isntrument. The same thing applies to me as a listener. Is it perhaps the nobilimente of the piece, which may differentiate it from others?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on February 25, 2015, 12:19:01 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 25, 2015, 11:24:57 AM
I actually find with Elgar something similar to Brahms —  ... in the case of both composers, the strength of the work is the overlay of the apparent liberty of the musical essence upon a solid skeleton of watertight (sorry to mix my metaphors) compositional construction.
And it is this understanding of the music which creates probably insurmountable difficulty for me in twigging what one can mean, by suggesting that the larger works are somehow "unsustainable."
Heartily agreed.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 25, 2015, 12:45:12 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 25, 2015, 11:48:15 AM
I second your question. I still can't get my head around what is meant by overblown, how it relates to sustainability, and then the context of the other works that are sustainable (where Elgar is not) and I guess not overblown (which the Elgar apparently is). In all honesty, I simply don't understand the point Beaumarchais is trying to make. I get that he isn't a fan (at least, I think that is what he's saying), but beyond that, I am lost. And it's the terminology that is throwing me I think.

Nicely put. In the case of 'overblown' - which I take to mean something like pretentious or self-important - I can't hear that in the symphonies at all. They seem to me to be beautifully crafted and full of sincere feeling, and indeed I can hardly see how I could have spent so much of my life listening to them if they truly are pretentious. One would think that somewhere along the line the penny would drop eventually. So I come back to my original notion that the discussion here is not about the music intrinsically, but about 'the listener's share'. It's certainly possible for a particular listener to believe that a work of art is pretentious if it generates some such feeling for him/her, but we do very often tend to project these things outwards onto the work as if it were a fault, instead of asking what internal process it is that causes us to feel like this about them. Hence the frequent error: 'I dislike this, therefore it is bad'.

QuoteI think the other problem I am having is this terminology is descriptive, but not precise. If I am playing and the conductor says, hey sax player, stop playing so overblown, I wouldn't know how to translate that comment into the sound coming out of the isntrument. The same thing applies to me as a listener. Is it perhaps the nobilimente of the piece, which may differentiate it from others?

I think you just might have it, there. That nobilmente really can rub people up the wrong way. You can chuck some of Elgar out of the window along with all that Late Victorian/Edwardian Imperial sentiment, but if so, one thinks of babies and bathwater.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Beaumarchais on February 25, 2015, 12:46:33 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on February 25, 2015, 11:20:36 AM
Could someone please explain to me what is meant by 'unsustainable' in the context of Elgar's symphonies?

I mean that Elgar's thematic development isn't adequately sustained in a coherent progression but tails off into dead ends and meanders to no recognisable purpose. Elgar obviously had the ability to create memorable themes but they become dull and repetitious when strung out over the length of a symphony unless the composer has the originality to transform them above and beyond their original conception.   
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 25, 2015, 12:59:27 PM
Quote from: Beaumarchais on February 25, 2015, 12:46:33 PM
I mean that Elgar's thematic development isn't adequately sustained in a coherent progression but tails off into dead ends and meanders to no recognisable purpose.

Ah, we might might be getting somewhere. I find myself wondering about this notion of 'purpose' in a piece of music. If I go for a walk in the countryside I can stride forward coherently and get from A to B very succinctly; or I can wander among the byways and smell the flowers. And may I not regard that wandering and aroma-savouring as being part of - or indeed my chief - purpose in going for the walk in the first place? This begins to look not so much like a lack of purpose in the composer, but a mistaken notion of what that purpose might be. It seems that in his symphonies, he simply isn't a suitable musical companion for you. I'm not sure there's much more to it than that?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 25, 2015, 01:32:23 PM
Quote from: Beaumarchais on February 25, 2015, 10:57:49 AM
Well Mirror I'm sorry that once again the subject of the thread has strayed into other territory, I suppose it's an inevitable consequence where comparisons are being made. Regarding the contradiction, I have to say that it lies in the ear of the listener. My views on Elgar and other composers mentioned, and notwithstanding Sir Thomas Beecham, are my own and made in the knowledge that others may disagree.
Incidentally, Delius is where Sir Thomas and I part company as he was the foremost champion of the composer's work and, apart from La Calinda, I don't much care for Delius's music.
Sir Thomas said he was intrigued by it as it was like a wayward woman and he was determined to tame it.
I have never had much time for wayward women and have usually preferred to leave them to it.

Why would I care what you thought about Delius? More importantly, what does he have to do with the Elgar thread? It seems like to me you have nothing positive or beneficial to add here other than to rile against a composer whose symphonies you don't like.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Beaumarchais on February 25, 2015, 02:09:48 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 25, 2015, 01:32:23 PM
Why would I care what you thought about Delius? More importantly, what does he have to do with the Elgar thread? It seems like to me you have nothing positive or beneficial to add here other than to rile against a composer whose symphonies you don't like.

Apologies for once again departing from the subject of this thread but I must take issue with the word 'rile' as I have posted confirmation of my admiration for a number of Elgar's works.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 25, 2015, 02:25:49 PM
Quote from: Beaumarchais on February 25, 2015, 02:09:48 PMApologies for once again departing from the subject of this thread but I must take issue with the word 'rile' as I have posted confirmation of my admiration for a number of Elgar's works.

Look at your previous posts, Beaumarchais. You've said more negative things about Elgar than positive. I really don't care if you like the symphonies or not, but there's plenty of people who do love them, so, again, it seems to go against the good nature that this thread should promote. If you would spend more time talking about the music of Elgar's that you do like instead of the music you don't, then I think this could help initiate better conversation. You do what you want, but I think it's obvious that you don't actually care what any of us have to say about the composer just as long as you get your two cents in.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 25, 2015, 03:04:31 PM
Quote from: Beaumarchais on February 25, 2015, 12:46:33 PM
I mean that Elgar's thematic development isn't adequately sustained in a coherent progression but tails off into dead ends and meanders to no recognisable purpose. Elgar obviously had the ability to create memorable themes but they become dull and repetitious when strung out over the length of a symphony unless the composer has the originality to transform them above and beyond their original conception.

I don't know what coherent progression means and frankly I don't even know if such knowledge makes me dislike those symphonies. Dead ends? Meanders? What? To me this is extremely sophisticated music.

Sometimes I feel Elgar is compared to other composer too much. Elgar was unique composer and had an unique style. Why not just enjoy the music and not think what kind of "coherent progression" other composer would have made instead meandering.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Jo498 on February 25, 2015, 11:04:42 PM
I think the thread should allow critical remarks and controversial discussions as long as it stays civil. This can often be revealing not only of listener's preferences but of some aspects of the music. I can certainly understand some of Beaumarchais' impressions.
E.g. in the first symphony I find the nobilmente "motto" very beautiful at its earlier, quieter appearances but for me this character and mood is destroyed when it is transformed in a brass apotheosis later on. A lot of Elgar for me is such an uneasy mix of this wistful melancholy and "all hail the British Empire" aspects. (I can appreciate Beecham's Bonmot that seems to imply striving for a gothic cathedral and ending up with a Victorian train station.) As someone mentioned Strauss, I am not a great fan of him either but he is (often) more colorful and entertaining than Elgar, I think. And Strauss' best pieces are operas where there is no comparison to Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Christo on February 25, 2015, 11:19:19 PM
Quote from: revdrdave on February 25, 2015, 10:00:02 AMI've collected classical music for 40+ years, and have had a fair representation of Elgar therein all along, but I never really began listening to his music until recently.  Being an Anglophile, I've long had a love of music from UK composers, especially Vaughan Williams, Moeran, and Finzi, but Elgar, for whatever reason, just didn't click for me.

Many thanks for jumping on this forum for music lovers united! And great to learn that you've been in love with RVW and the likes for so long. Yes, the opposition between these very 'English' composers on the one side and those who lean a little more to German Romanticism a/o Brahms at the other, is well known. I myself am struggling with it about as long as you do, being equally prejudiced towards the former. :-) My own salvation is, that the great RVW himself admired Elgar, and Parry, even Stanford (whose choral music is superb, I'ld say, but whose symphonies require some extra sympathy). I'm still trying to listen to Elgar through his ears, and this thread is definitely a great help. Thanks to all of you then.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on February 25, 2015, 11:27:55 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 25, 2015, 01:32:23 PM
Why would I care what you thought about Delius? More importantly, what does he have to do with the Elgar thread? It seems like to me you have nothing positive or beneficial to add here other than to rile against a composer whose symphonies you don't like.

Right......this is a discussion thread, not a fan site. There has been a bit of straying from the topic, but it is perfectly legitimate to discuss other composers in relation to, in or contrast to, the composer in question. It is drawing out some interesting tinking. MI, there is no need to become instantly hostile if someone dislikes something that you don't. No need to go down that well trod road again. Nor do I see signs of trolling, where a poster just wants to throw stones into the water. If that becomes evident.....let me know. So, the discussion needs to continue to be framed in the civilised way most posters have been conveying.

Knight

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 26, 2015, 12:30:49 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on February 25, 2015, 10:00:02 AM
I've been following GMG for awhile but this is my first post.

First, a shout-out to Elgarian who, unbeknownst to him at the time, shepherded me through a discovery of the music of Handel.  It's nice to find him--and the rest of you--here on the Elgar thread as I've begun to find my way back to his music.  I've collected classical music for 40+ years, and have had a fair representation of Elgar therein all along, but I never really began listening to his music until recently.  Being an Anglophile, I've long had a love of music from UK composers, especially Vaughan Williams, Moeran, and Finzi, but Elgar, for whatever reason, just didn't click for me.

I am amazed to discover this morning that I missed seeing this post of yours yesterday, David. Must have been half-asleep. Anyway, it's great to see you posting here and sharing your adventures.

QuoteWell, surprise, surprise... Thanks to two performances of two works, I'm discovering the wonders of Elgar, seemingly for the first time.  The first is the Violin Concerto via a Proms performance on Youtube with Nigel Kennedy and the BBC Concert Orchestra conducted by Paul Daniel.  Wow.  I know Kennedy can be an acquired taste among music lovers but this performance just blows me away (a term I don't use too often).  Over and above the sheer beauty of the tone Kennedy produces and his (to my ears) flawless technique, he communicates a depth and profundity in this piece that I never experienced in the recording I've long had in my collection by Chung and Solti.  I've encountered opinion in the past placing the Elgar concerto in the ranks of those by Beethoven, Brahms, and Sibelius but I never understood that until now.  Extraordinary.

It took me a couple of decades to find a satisfactory way into the violin concerto, but once I made it, it zoomed into my personal shortlist of essential items, and has stayed there ever since. There's a LOT of discussion of it in this thread - in fact I find it's one of those pieces of music that particularly rewards some exploration of how it was written, what Elgar had to say about it, what his intentions were, and so on. I found that the more I knew about that side of things, the deeper my fascination with the music became. I would definitely place Elgar's VC up there with those other giants you mention. Some have said it's too long - and certainly it is longer than one might expect - but there are very good reasons for that.

Karl will echo your admiration for the Kennedy performances, and Sarge would I'm sure have some helpful things to say about the Chung/Solti version. My own old, old favourite is Hugh Bean/Charles Groves (as recorded ad tedium earlier in this thread).

QuoteSecond is the Piano Quintet performed by Ian Brown and the Sorrel Quartet.  This is a piece by Elgar that I did not know, so I'm in no position to speak to the qualities--or lack thereof--of the performance, but the music itself, again, just blows me away.  For me, the piano quintet as a genre has pretty much been Schumann and Brahms and, occasionally, Shostakovich.  That's expanded now to include Elgar.  The quintet is, at this moment, my favorite of his chamber pieces.

Oh, now you're on a roll! The chamber music can be enormously rewarding, and again all three of the major pieces (quartet, quintet, and the stunning violin sonata) are enhanced, for me, by knowing about the circumstances in which they were written, in a secluded cottage in a Sussex wood. An entire book has been written, largely about Elgar's association with the place:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51a5L2PB6KL.jpg)

Cheers!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 26, 2015, 03:53:43 AM
Quote from: Beaumarchais on February 25, 2015, 12:46:33 PM
I mean that Elgar's thematic development isn't adequately sustained in a coherent progression but tails off into dead ends and meanders to no recognisable purpose. Elgar obviously had the ability to create memorable themes but they become dull and repetitious when strung out over the length of a symphony unless the composer has the originality to transform them above and beyond their original conception.   
But is this your problem or Elgar's problem? For example, the nobilemente theme in the first symphony is incomplete, but is transformed throughout the rest of the symphony only to return at the very end. This seems to me to have a very clear and coherent purpose. I suppose if one doesn't understand that purpose (or see value in it) that one might find it repetitious and dull. But I think this might be an example of the dead end you refer to.

It doesn't bother me that you have posted your thoughts and that not all Elgar is your cup of tea. It could be that the ideas/sound/approach doesn't connect with you. It is hard to connect to everyone equally well. As a lover of Elgar, I just try to convey some of the 'why' behind that feeling, so that maybe it will help others (eventually) connect. But I think Elgarian is the most effective in this regard when it comes to Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 26, 2015, 05:07:33 AM
Quote from: Beaumarchais on February 25, 2015, 10:25:49 AM
I agree Sarge that the so-called Symphony of a Thousand is perhaps more of a challenge for the listener as it's a long way fromthe 1st to the 8th and beyond. Admittedly I heard it only once when a colleague wanted to show off his audio system but I was very impressed with the music. Perhaps I should have included the 2nd instead as I have seen it performed a number of times in concert.
To my mind the Alpine Symphony epitomises late romanticism and has been a personal favourite for years
and here's why:

http://youtu.be/xK7z2NhUrsQ

I'm glad you included M8. No other work would have shown me how wrong I was in my initial assumptions concerning your musical likes and dislikes. It was a shock, but a pleasant one. I love all your choices, by the way, which include several of my Top 10 Symphony picks: Mahler 6, Sibelius 5, Saint-Saens 3; the Alpine, of course (although I sometimes do get lost coming down the mountain. The way up is more direct).

Sarge

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 26, 2015, 05:35:17 AM
Quote from: Beaumarchais on February 25, 2015, 12:46:33 PM
I mean that Elgar's thematic development isn't adequately sustained in a coherent progression but tails off into dead ends and meanders to no recognisable purpose.

I suppose the Second is a bit harder to grasp in this respect but I hear a clear trajectory in the First, from the moment the Nobilmente theme is first heard through the subsequent struggle to reassert itself to the triumphant conclusion. If there are a few byways (thanks Elgarian  ;) ) well, they are places I want to explore.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on February 26, 2015, 05:42:12 AM
If we say simply that Elgar's thematic development isn't sustained in an apparently coherent progression but tails off into dead ends and meanders, I could partially agree  8)

Id est, I find Elgarian's wondering about this notion of 'purpose' in a piece of music entirely to the purpose here.  I think the occasional indirection, the occasional forgoing of getting somewhere in order to enjoy being here at present, is part of the musical character.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on February 26, 2015, 05:59:47 AM
Parenthetically (and this is a group who may be playing some Henningmusick one day):

http://www.youtube.com/v/R8LFOF8x5wU
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2015, 06:08:21 AM
Quote from: knight66 on February 25, 2015, 11:27:55 PM
Right......this is a discussion thread, not a fan site. There has been a bit of straying from the topic, but it is perfectly legitimate to discuss other composers in relation to, in or contrast to, the composer in question. It is drawing out some interesting tinking. MI, there is no need to become instantly hostile if someone dislikes something that you don't. No need to go down that well trod road again. Nor do I see signs of trolling, where a poster just wants to throw stones into the water. If that becomes evident.....let me know. So, the discussion needs to continue to be framed in the civilised way most posters have been conveying.

Knight

Anyone is welcome to like/dislike what they want, Knight. I have no problem with that at all. What I do have a problem with, however, is someone's insistent need to say they dislike something (aka beating a dead horse). I'm all for discussion about music, but I've learned that discussion of music that we all like is much more beneficial, and less troublesome, then continuously remarking on music one doesn't like. Like I said, it doesn't matter to me that he/she dislikes Elgar's symphonies but to go on and on about it seems redundant and is, in my view, a dead-end.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 26, 2015, 06:33:07 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 26, 2015, 06:08:21 AM
Anyone is welcome to like/dislike what they want, Knight. I have no problem with that at all. What I do have a problem with, however, is someone's insistent need to say they dislike something (aka beating a dead horse).

Beaumarchais is not beating a dead horse. He's been responding to posts and questions from the rest of us. That's what we want him to do! It's called a conversation.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2015, 06:54:08 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 26, 2015, 06:33:07 AM
Beaumarchais is not beating a dead horse. He's been responding to posts and questions from the rest of us. That's what we want him to do! It's called a conversation.

Sarge

Okay, well I haven't been following too closely to the responses he's been given by other members as I've just been reading his posts. By all means, carry on! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2015, 07:23:17 AM
Re: Elgar's Symphony No. 2

I whole-heartedly love Symphony No. 2, which I posted a semi-lengthy post about why I love it many pages back, but I suppose whatever alleged weaknesses the music may or may not suffer from have never really occurred to me as this music, for me, shows a man who is bearing his soul for the world to hear and doing it in a completely honest and humbling way. There is some music whose excesses can way me down, but when it comes to Elgar, to put this quite directly, I'm all ears.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on February 26, 2015, 08:24:22 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 26, 2015, 06:54:08 AM
Okay, well I haven't been following too closely to the responses he's been given by other members as I've just been reading his posts. By all means, carry on! :)

That''s terribly generous of you.......now, on with the conversation.

Knight
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hiker on February 26, 2015, 11:24:50 AM
Is it safe to come back in?  :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 26, 2015, 12:47:15 PM
Quote from: Hiker on February 26, 2015, 11:24:50 AM
Is it safe to come back in?  :D

What's the password?

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2015, 12:50:54 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 26, 2015, 12:47:15 PM
What's the password?

Windflower?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 26, 2015, 01:36:51 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 26, 2015, 03:53:43 AM
But is this your problem or Elgar's problem? For example, the nobilemente theme in the first symphony is incomplete, but is transformed throughout the rest of the symphony only to return at the very end. This seems to me to have a very clear and coherent purpose. I suppose if one doesn't understand that purpose (or see value in it) that one might find it repetitious and dull. But I think this might be an example of the dead end you refer to.

I've been thinking along similar lines myself, about the first symphony, and the way we get that glorious return at the end, bursting with optimism. And also, in the last movement, we get that astounding musical transfiguration of the 'military march' theme into something exquisitely beautiful that soars and heals and regenerates and inspires. I mean ... for me, that is one of the most fabulously unexpected transformations in the whole of music. What I don't get - really, really don't get - is how a symphony that culminates with such a transcendent hair-on-the-neck-prickling passage could be thought of as purposeless or 'unsustainable'. I get that not everyone may like it. [After all, I believe some people don't like single malt whisky - it's true, you know, some don't]. But surely to goodness, however many deliciously obscure paths promising 'something heard down by the river' are explored en route, this symphony oozes purpose.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hiker on February 28, 2015, 02:10:05 AM
Elgar: Sonata for Violin & Piano in E minor, Op.82.

[asin]B00013QT42[/asin]

I first heard this sonata when it was discussed here some time ago. It was quite the revelation. Heard sight unseen, this driven performance from Maxim Vengerov and Revital Chachamov would have convinced me to bet good money that the composition sprang from the pen of someone "spikier" than dear old Sir Edward Elgar, such as Shostakovich or Prokofiev. But what do I know? This is a side of Elgar that almost never gets a public airing.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 28, 2015, 04:44:43 AM
Quote from: Hiker on February 28, 2015, 02:10:05 AM
Elgar: Sonata for Violin & Piano in E minor, Op.82.

[asin]B00013QT42[/asin]

I first heard this sonata when it was discussed here some time ago. It was quite the revelation. Heard sight unseen, this driven performance from Maxim Vengerov and Revital Chachamov would have convinced me to bet good money that the composition sprang from the pen of someone "spikier" than dear old Sir Edward Elgar, such as Shostakovich or Prokofiev. But what do I know? This is a side of Elgar that almost never gets a public airing.

Elgar has got too many sides to be comprehensively "aired" edited by Knight That said, I have heard Elgar's Violin Sonata played a few times on classical radio in Finland over the years. Perhaps someone in the radio thinks it's "similar" music to Salut d'amour.  ;D

Edited for breaking the rules of the site with an insulting remark. Knight
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on February 28, 2015, 09:56:47 AM
Quote from: Hiker on February 28, 2015, 02:10:05 AM
Elgar: Sonata for Violin & Piano in E minor, Op.82.

[asin]B00013QT42[/asin]

I first heard this sonata when it was discussed here some time ago. It was quite the revelation. Heard sight unseen, this driven performance from Maxim Vengerov and Revital Chachamov would have convinced me to bet good money that the composition sprang from the pen of someone "spikier" than dear old Sir Edward Elgar, such as Shostakovich or Prokofiev. But what do I know? This is a side of Elgar that almost never gets a public airing.

Oh nicely said! The three chamber works - violin sonata, string quartet, and piano quintet - show a side of Elgar that is hugely rewarding and wholly different from most people's expectations. I like your description of the violin sonata as 'spikier' than one expects. Certainly it's a long way removed from the 'lighter' Elgar of the Salut d'Amour variety, or the opulence of the major orchestral works. In spirit I've always associated the chamber works with the Introduction and Allegor for strings. Not chronologically of course - but the Introduction & Allegro shows us a side of Elgar that seems (to me) to resurface (emotionally, if not musically) in the chamber works. They make me think of wind, and trees, and rough grass underfoot, and English weather, and a deep longing for something infinitely desirable but just out of reach. There's a windflowerish spirit in the violin sonata, too.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 03, 2015, 08:36:51 AM
As I indicated in a post a couple of weeks ago (my first here on GMG), I've been collecting classical music for 40+ years but, to that point, had listened to very little Elgar.  I added some Elgar to my collection fairly early on, especially once I indulged my Anglophilia and really began collecting British composers.  But my motivation then was less a love for Elgar than an acknowledgment of his place in English music history, i.e. if you're going to have a reputable collection of English music, you have to include some Elgar.

So—as of two weeks ago, I hadn't listened to Elgar in, literally, years.  In the days since then, however, I've listened to nothing but Elgar—all Elgar, all the time.  Simultaneously, I've been working my way through the 140 pages of this thread (I'm up to about page 80)...it has been quite the education.  I want to share some reactions as a result of my Elgar immersion, not because I'm bold enough to think I have anything of particular consequence to add to the discussion here but because I'm hoping those of you with a far better/deeper/longer relationship with Elgar and his music can help me come to terms with what I think I'm hearing.

For some context, here's what I've been listening to:

     Symphony #1 (Barbirolli/Halle)
     Symphony #2 (a Proms performance with Daniel Harding/London SO)
     Violin Concerto (another Proms performance with Nigel Kennedy/Paul Daniel/BBC)
     Cello Concerto (Du Pre/Barbirolli/London SO)
     Spirit of England (Cahill/Gibson/Scottish NO)
     Piano Quintet (Ian Brown/Sorrel Qt)

1) I quickly realized the extent to which my expectations of Elgar were filtered through the Pomp and Circumstance March #1.  That's the Elgar I knew—the Elgar I think most people know—thus the Elgar I expected.  As I listened, my one-dimensional, one composition Elgarian history kept leading me to hear Pomp and Circumstance no matter what, musically, was actually happening.  The stately tread of the opening of the First Symphony is a good example: as I listened, my first thought was, "That sounds like Pomp and Circumstance."  In order to begin to really hear what Elgar was doing in any given piece, I first had to flush Pomp and Circumstance out of my ears, and that only happened as a result of repeated listening to his music that wasn't Pomp and Circumstance.   

2) Just as my expectations of Elgar were conditioned by Pomp and Circumstance, so, too, were they conditioned by my impressions of the point in English history of which Elgar was a product.  Elgar's life straddled Victorian and Edwardian England and, for better or worse, that conjures-up all manner of notions in my North American mind of empire, jingoism, and stiff upper lips.  Is that fair?  Absolutely not—no more than the assumptions of some of my British acquaintances that since I used to live in Texas, I must've owned a ranch, rounded-up cattle, and packed a pistol everywhere I went.  The point is not the accuracy of my assumptions but the fact that, accurate or not, they informed my expectations of what Elgar's music would be.  Like Pomp and Circumstance, my assumptions based on ignorance of the full picture of Elgar's life and music, had to be re-thought...and were, once again as a result of repeated listening.

3) Listening to Elgar requires work.  Let me explain.  Music of many composers—say, Tchaikovsky or Dvorak—can just sort of wash over me and I can still get something from the experience.  I can put it on and do other things...read, write, paint a room.  But I quickly discovered I cannot do that with Elgar.  Elgar does not (at least for me) give up his secrets easily.  I really have to listen, carefully.  This is not, I believe, a function solely of unfamiliarity with the music.  It is more a consequence of an unexpected profundity.  I say "unexpected" because two weeks ago, "profound" is not a descriptor I'd have used for Elgar.  But, for me, the Second Symphony, the Cello Concerto, and, especially, the Violin Concerto are among the most profound pieces I've encountered in a very long time.  There is an emotional, intellectual, and spiritual depth to Elgar's music that I simply did not expect.  My reaction to him is similar to my reaction to Bach.  When I listen to Bach, I can do nothing else because his music engages me totally, demanding my total concentration in return.  I'm experiencing much the same with Elgar.

4) Another reason Elgar requires work, I think, is that his sound palette, to my ears, is dense.  I'm not a professional musician; I don't know music theory.  So, often, I don't feel I have the vocabulary to describe what I'm hearing.  That said, I wonder if the denseness, the aural thickness I often hear in Elgar is a function of his orchestration.  There's often a lot going on in Elgar—the development section of the first movement of the Symphony #1 is a good example—but I have to listen carefully to discern all the individual instrumental lines and what they're doing.  I wouldn't, in other words, describe Elgar's music as sounding transparent.  I appreciate this may be a function of interpretation—some conductors are better than others at maintaining an orchestral balance where individual instrumental lines are more audible.  But it can't be just interpretation.  A case in point is the cadenza of the Violin Concerto: it is remarkable on so many levels but isn't part of its communicative ability (I don't know what else to call it) because, in the orchestral accompaniment, Elgar, through what might be described as a "minimalist" orchestration, creates a sound world in that 10 minutes so very different from the rest of the concerto (the exception that proves the rule)?

5) I'm already thinking the Cello Concerto may well be the greatest cello concerto ever written.

Well, if you've read this far, my thanks for your indulgence and I look forward to any responses you may care to offer because I really do want to understand Elgar better.     
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 03, 2015, 11:26:06 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 03, 2015, 08:36:51 AM


For some context, here's what I've been listening to:

     Symphony #1 (Barbirolli/Halle)
     Symphony #2 (a Proms performance with Daniel Harding/London SO)
     Violin Concerto (another Proms performance with Nigel Kennedy/Paul Daniel/BBC)
     Cello Concerto (Du Pre/Barbirolli/London SO)
     Spirit of England (Cahill/Gibson/Scottish NO)
     Piano Quintet (Ian Brown/Sorrel Qt)

1) I quickly realized the extent to which my expectations of Elgar were filtered through the Pomp and Circumstance March #1.  That's the Elgar I knew—the Elgar I think most people know—thus the Elgar I expected.  As I listened, my one-dimensional, one composition Elgarian history kept leading me to hear Pomp and Circumstance no matter what, musically, was actually happening.  The stately tread of the opening of the First Symphony is a good example: as I listened, my first thought was, "That sounds like Pomp and Circumstance."  In order to begin to really hear what Elgar was doing in any given piece, I first had to flush Pomp and Circumstance out of my ears, and that only happened as a result of repeated listening to his music that wasn't Pomp and Circumstance.

That Pomp & Circumstance business is the very dickens. As marches go, I'm sure they're very good, but it is very difficult to get past them to get at what I'd call 'the real Elgar'. Which is not to say the P&C marches are not him - we have to factor them into the overall picture - but they simply aren't representative, and they have nothing to do at all with my lifelong love of Elgar's music.

Quote2) Just as my expectations of Elgar were conditioned by Pomp and Circumstance, so, too, were they conditioned by my impressions of the point in English history of which Elgar was a product.  Elgar's life straddled Victorian and Edwardian England and, for better or worse, that conjures-up all manner of notions in my North American mind of empire, jingoism, and stiff upper lips.

There's no gainsaying that Elgar was a man of his time - not a man ahead of it - but I've long felt that the way to get past that 'jingoistic' assumption is to think not in terms of crude nationalism, but of chivalry and brotherhood. Elgar was primarily an Imperialist in that latter sense. Think Arthurian Legends, think PreRaphaelitism, and you're getting closer to understanding where he comes from. The Spirit of England  isn't a paean of nationalism, or even of patriotism, but a requiem of remembrance for those who sacrificed their lives - who, in this case, happen to be English soldiers.

Quote3) Listening to Elgar requires work.  Let me explain.  Music of many composers—say, Tchaikovsky or Dvorak—can just sort of wash over me and I can still get something from the experience.  I can put it on and do other things...read, write, paint a room.  But I quickly discovered I cannot do that with Elgar.  Elgar does not (at least for me) give up his secrets easily.  I really have to listen, carefully. 

There are less daunting easier works that are still lovely things: Chanson de Matin, Chanson de Nuit, Salut d'Amour, Serenade for Strings - and I never found the Enigma Variations difficult to get into myself - though of course they do constitute a major work.


QuoteBut, for me, the Second Symphony, the Cello Concerto, and, especially, the Violin Concerto are among the most profound pieces I've encountered in a very long time.  There is an emotional, intellectual, and spiritual depth to Elgar's music that I simply did not expect. 

Sounds like the battle is won already, really ....

QuoteA case in point is the cadenza of the Violin Concerto: it is remarkable on so many levels but isn't part of its communicative ability (I don't know what else to call it) because, in the orchestral accompaniment, Elgar, through what might be described as a "minimalist" orchestration, creates a sound world in that 10 minutes so very different from the rest of the concerto (the exception that proves the rule)?

It is, and yet it isn't. The cadenza is intricately related to everything that went before and a crucial part of the emotional/musical coherence of the whole, despite the astonishing shift in momentum, orchestration, mood, etc etc.. At some point as you go through this thread you'll find lots of talk about the VC and the significance of the cadenza, and the windflower themes. I won't repeat it here for fear of putting everyone to sleep

I don't say all this with any kind of didactic impulse - just wanted to respond to your very thoughtful post in the best way I could.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 03, 2015, 11:37:32 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 03, 2015, 11:26:06 AM
There's no gainsaying that Elgar was a man of his time - not a man ahead of it - but I've long felt that the way to get past that 'jingoistic' assumption is to think not in terms of crude nationalism, but of chivalry and brotherhood. Elgar was primarily an Imperialist in that latter sense. Think Arthurian Legends, think PreRaphaelitism, and you're getting closer to understanding where he comes from. The Spirit of England  isn't a paean of nationalism, or even of patriotism, but a requiem of remembrance for those who sacrificed their lives - who, in this case, happen to be English soldiers.

Thank you, Alan, for your comments--very helpful, indeed.  You raise a point here that you've raised in the past, one that I'm anxious to have you explain further, namely the idea of Elgar and chivalry.  What do you mean by chivalry in this context and how, specifically, does it relate to better understanding Elgar's music?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 04, 2015, 01:27:09 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 03, 2015, 11:37:32 AM
Thank you, Alan, for your comments--very helpful, indeed.  You raise a point here that you've raised in the past, one that I'm anxious to have you explain further, namely the idea of Elgar and chivalry.  What do you mean by chivalry in this context and how, specifically, does it relate to better understanding Elgar's music?

There's no short answer to this one David. There's so much fog to clear away, largely because of what happened when Elgar began to be reassessed in the 1960s. The problem was that side by side with the Public and Imperialistic Elgar, there was a private Elgar - the Elgar portrayed in the famous Ken Russell film, who wandered the Malvern Hills as a lad and communed with nature and subsequently captured such experiences in music like Introduction and Allegro for Strings. The implicit argument ran that this was the 'real' Elgar and the pomp and circumstances side was just fluff and bluster. But it doesn't hold water. Elgar was that child of nature, yes. And he was also an Imperialist. However we approach him, if we want to understand properly what drove him, we have to find a way of taking in both of those aspects, rather than excluding one of them.

The best description of  how to go about this is found in a book by Jeffrey Richards called Imperialism and Music, in the chapter 'Elgar's Empire'. I'll quote a few key sentences:

"The problem is that people have misunderstood the meaning of Imperialism, equating it with jingoism and exploitation. To apply the term 'jingoistic' to Elgar's work is to misunderstand his view entirely. ... it is a vision of justice, peace, freedom and equality of the pax Britannica and of the fulfilment by Britain of its trusteeship mission, to see the countries in its charge  brought safely and in due course to independence - a far from ignoble dream. Elgar's Empire was a fusion of three other elements in his world view, his love of chivalry, his mystical Christianity, and his patriotism."

We have to beware of regarding Elgar and his time through a lens of historical snobbery. Elgar was essentially and inescapably a late Victorian, steeped in Romantic literature: Scott, Legends of King Arthur etc. Some of his music is directly inspired from those kind of sources: the Froissart overture (Scott), with the inscription on its score: 'when chivalry lifted up her lance on high'; The Black Knight; Arthur, etc.. Suddenly I'm reminded of another recent book (Elgar and Chivalry by Robert Anderson) which traces out all these chivalric threads, and draws out Elgar's personal associations with a kind of mythic, mystic England: Albion, the England of Arthur. In this way Robert Anderson links Elgar with the preoccupations of people like Tennyson and the PreRaphaelites (his close friend, the 'Windflower' - Alice Stuart Wortley - was the daughter of John Everett Millais, the PreRaphaelite painter). Elgar's chivalric Imperialism was not one of oppression, but a mystically flavoured call to duty and brotherhood. Think 'King Arthur's Camelot', and you're getting close.

So any accurate understanding of Elgar and his music has to encapsulate these two factors - (1) the private Elgar, the child of nature, the dreamer by the river; and (2) the public Elgar, the chivalric Imperialist lover of his country. And so finally to return specifically to his music, and the effect of all this on the way we listen to it (in answer to your question): nowhere, in my view, do we find these two polar opposites brought together so perfectly, so heart-rendingly, as in the violin concerto, with its private, pastoral, feminine windflower themes wringing out the heart of its bluff broad-shouldered public optimism and almost-bravado. It's almost as if he understood these two aspects of himself and wrote the violin concerto as a means of exploring their relationship musically. You know that famous enigmatic inscription he wrote on its score - 'Herein is enshrined the soul of ....' [five dots], often thought to relate to Alice the Windflower? Well, maybe. Or maybe it was the soul of Elgar himself?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on March 04, 2015, 03:48:45 AM
Alan, Thanks for your many insights on this thread. For myself, I never did worry about whether he was old fashioned, jingoistic etc; I listen and let the music do its work. But for sure what you bring is very interesting and does deepen my understanding of both the music and the composer.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 04, 2015, 04:23:32 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 04, 2015, 01:27:09 AM
There's no short answer to this one David. There's so much fog to clear away, largely because of what happened when Elgar began to be reassessed in the 1960s. The problem was that side by side with the Public and Imperialistic Elgar, there was a private Elgar - the Elgar portrayed in the famous Ken Russell film, who wandered the Malvern Hills as a lad and communed with nature and subsequently captured such experiences in music like Introduction and Allegro for Strings. The implicit argument ran that this was the 'real' Elgar and the pomp and circumstances side was just fluff and bluster. But it doesn't hold water. Elgar was that child of nature, yes. And he was also an Imperialist. However we approach him, if we want to understand properly what drove him, we have to find a way of taking in both of those aspects, rather than excluding one of them.

The best description of  how to go about this is found in a book by Jeffrey Richards called Imperialism and Music, in the chapter 'Elgar's Empire'. I'll quote a few key sentences:

"The problem is that people have misunderstood the meaning of Imperialism, equating it with jingoism and exploitation. To apply the term 'jingoistic' to Elgar's work is to misunderstand his view entirely. ... it is a vision of justice, peace, freedom and equality of the pax Britannica and of the fulfilment by Britain of its trusteeship mission, to see the countries in its charge  brought safely and in due course to independence - a far from ignoble dream. Elgar's Empire was a fusion of three other elements in his world view, his love of chivalry, his mystical Christianity, and his patriotism."

We have to beware of regarding Elgar and his time through a lens of historical snobbery. Elgar was essentially and inescapably a late Victorian, steeped in Romantic literature: Scott, Legends of King Arthur etc. Some of his music is directly inspired from those kind of sources: the Froissart overture (Scott), with the inscription on its score: 'when chivalry lifted up her lance on high'; The Black Knight; Arthur, etc.. Suddenly I'm reminded of another recent book (Elgar and Chivalry by Robert Anderson) which traces out all these chivalric threads, and draws out Elgar's personal associations with a kind of mythic, mystic England: Albion, the England of Arthur. In this way Robert Anderson links Elgar with the preoccupations of people like Tennyson and the PreRaphaelites (his close friend, the 'Windflower' - Alice Stuart Wortley - was the daughter of John Everett Millais, the PreRaphaelite painter). Elgar's chivalric Imperialism was not one of oppression, but a mystically flavoured call to duty and brotherhood. Think 'King Arthur's Camelot', and you're getting close.

So any accurate understanding of Elgar and his music has to encapsulate these two factors - (1) the private Elgar, the child of nature, the dreamer by the river; and (2) the public Elgar, the chivalric Imperialist lover of his country. And so finally to return specifically to his music, and the effect of all this on the way we listen to it (in answer to your question): nowhere, in my view, do we find these two polar opposites brought together so perfectly, so heart-rendingly, as in the violin concerto, with its private, pastoral, feminine windflower themes wringing out the heart of its bluff broad-shouldered public optimism and almost-bravado. It's almost as if he understood these two aspects of himself and wrote the violin concerto as a means of exploring their relationship musically. You know that famous enigmatic inscription he wrote on its score - 'Herein is enshrined the soul of ....' [five dots], often thought to relate to Alice the Windflower? Well, maybe. Or maybe it was the soul of Elgar himself?
Very interesting. Of course, some/a lot of this is captured in the word 'nobilmente'. But do you know, there is no good definition to be found on the internet. Most seem to dance around it or use the word noble/nobility, which is not entirely the meaning of the term (and in any case, using the root to explain it is almost useless). Have you found a good explanation for this term in any of the books on Elgar? It is a difficult word to explain on the fly.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on March 04, 2015, 05:01:02 AM
Thanks, as ever, Alan.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on March 04, 2015, 08:02:12 AM
Very interesting, gentlemen, bravo !

I agree that the cello concerto is the greatest ever written  :D

For addiitonal works to explore, Enigma is an obvious choice. I never tire of listening to its crossection of glorious themes and whiffs of melodies. Then there is The Music Makers, where Enigma makes fleeting appearances, and where Janet Baker (go for that version, accept no substituress) contributes the most idiomatic elgarian vocal outpouring.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 04, 2015, 10:20:25 AM
Quote from: André on March 04, 2015, 08:02:12 AM
Then there is The Music Makers, where Enigma makes fleeting appearances, and where Janet Baker (go for that version, accept no substituress) contributes the most idiomatic elgarian vocal outpouring.
It's a great work, I agree. But the Andrew Davis recording is outstanding as well (with Jean Rigby).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 04, 2015, 10:52:07 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 04, 2015, 01:27:09 AM
"The problem is that people have misunderstood the meaning of Imperialism, equating it with jingoism and exploitation. To apply the term 'jingoistic' to Elgar's work is to misunderstand his view entirely. ... it is a vision of justice, peace, freedom and equality of the pax Britannica and of the fulfilment by Britain of its trusteeship mission, to see the countries in its charge  brought safely and in due course to independence - a far from ignoble dream. Elgar's Empire was a fusion of three other elements in his world view, his love of chivalry, his mystical Christianity, and his patriotism."

I see the point, Alan, that the author is making.  At the same time--and I say this as an American acutely aware of the foreign policies of my own country--some would question the veracity of any claim by an Imperial power that its overseas policies are pursued in the interest of "trusteeship" and seeing "countries in its charge brought safely and in due course to independence."  Is that, I wonder, how Elgar himself understood what the British Empire was doing?  In any event, I find this comment of yours to be extraordinarily helpful: "Elgar's chivalric Imperialism was not one of oppression, but a mystically flavoured call to duty and brotherhood. Think 'King Arthur's Camelot', and you're getting close."  That makes a great deal of sense to me and helps me better hold in tension what you call the private and public Elgar.  You mention the Violin Concerto, and I understand exactly what you're describing.  I hear it, too, in both symphonies and, perhaps most poignantly, in The Spirit of England.  Would you go so far as to say that there is evidence of Elgar's struggle to reconcile (or at least deal with) his public and private sides in most all of his music to one degree or another? 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 04, 2015, 12:05:03 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 04, 2015, 04:23:32 AM
Very interesting. Of course, some/a lot of this is captured in the word 'nobilmente'. But do you know, there is no good definition to be found on the internet. Most seem to dance around it or use the word noble/nobility, which is not entirely the meaning of the term (and in any case, using the root to explain it is almost useless). Have you found a good explanation for this term in any of the books on Elgar? It is a difficult word to explain on the fly.

If I have, I've forgotten it, and I'd be as hard pressed to describe it as you would - except by pointing to my last post and saying 'a musical equivalent of all of the above'.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 04, 2015, 12:29:00 PM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 04, 2015, 10:52:07 AM
I say this as an American acutely aware of the foreign policies of my own country--some would question the veracity of any claim by an Imperial power that its overseas policies are pursued in the interest of "trusteeship" and seeing "countries in its charge brought safely and in due course to independence."  Is that, I wonder, how Elgar himself understood what the British Empire was doing? 

I suppose I should make it clear, first, that my intention isn't to whitewash Elgar's view of British Imperialism, but to establish more accurately what it is, and what it isn't: it isn't jingoistic. It carries with it a large dollop of duty and sacrifice. I'm not at all suggesting that we have to agree with him; but if we're going to criticise his views on Empire we need to criticise what they are, not what many people mistakenly think they are. My second point would be to raise a cautionary note about judging the beliefs and ideals of any Late Victorian according to our 21st century world view. We simply don't know how differently we might have see things ourselves had we been living in such a place, at such a time. However, laying those details aside, it seems we've got close to something we can both have some empathy with when we think in terms of the mystical Arthurian ideal.

QuoteThat makes a great deal of sense to me and helps me better hold in tension what you call the private and public Elgar.  You mention the Violin Concerto, and I understand exactly what you're describing.  I hear it, too, in both symphonies and, perhaps most poignantly, in The Spirit of England.  Would you go so far as to say that there is evidence of Elgar's struggle to reconcile (or at least deal with) his public and private sides in most all of his music to one degree or another?

I haven't actually thought of applying the 'Public and Private' idea to all his work, but you're surely right when you mention hearing it in the symphonies etc. One place where it's very striking is in the third symphony. Although most of what he left of it was at best fragmentarily sketched, the first few minutes of the first movement are pretty much worked out , and it's a classic example of what we're talking about. The symphony opens with that great  opening theme that sounds like a starkly ominous warning (Public) but very shortly the most exquisite, intimate, feminine passage enters as a (Private) counter suggestion. Absolutely the epitome of the two sides of Elgar. (And we know that the gentle passage was yet again inspired by a particular woman he'd met and fallen in love with, even at this late date.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 04, 2015, 01:44:25 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 04, 2015, 12:29:00 PM
I suppose I should make it clear, first, that my intention isn't to whitewash Elgar's view of British Imperialism, but to establish more accurately what it is, and what it isn't: it isn't jingoistic. It carries with it a large dollop of duty and sacrifice. I'm not at all suggesting that we have to agree with him; but if we're going to criticise his views on Empire we need to criticise what they are, not what many people mistakenly think they are. My second point would be to raise a cautionary note about judging the beliefs and ideals of any Late Victorian according to our 21st century world view. We simply don't know how differently we might have see things ourselves had we been living in such a place, at such a time. However, laying those details aside, it seems we've got close to something we can both have some empathy with when we think in terms of the mystical Arthurian ideal.

Yes, I quite agree and, as I've thought about it, I'm inclined to think that as important as it is to grasp whatever ideology informed Elgar's understanding of himself and his world, it's equally important to make sure that speculation about the ideology always remains in service to, rather than becoming more important than, the music itself.  Especially so given, as you point out, that looking at a Late Victorian worldview with 21st century eyes can be a dicey undertaking.  I think, for example, of Shostakovich and the way people who've no experience of what it means to live (let alone create) under a totalitarian regime nonetheless dismiss his music as a whole or in part because they can't get past ideological arguments vis-a-vis his relationship with Stalinism and the Soviet state.   
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 05, 2015, 01:22:07 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 04, 2015, 01:44:25 PM
Yes, I quite agree and, as I've thought about it, I'm inclined to think that as important as it is to grasp whatever ideology informed Elgar's understanding of himself and his world, it's equally important to make sure that speculation about the ideology always remains in service to, rather than becoming more important than, the music itself.  Especially so given, as you point out, that looking at a Late Victorian worldview with 21st century eyes can be a dicey undertaking.  I think, for example, of Shostakovich and the way people who've no experience of what it means to live (let alone create) under a totalitarian regime nonetheless dismiss his music as a whole or in part because they can't get past ideological arguments vis-a-vis his relationship with Stalinism and the Soviet state.

Oh yes, that's a super analogy. And I agree completely with those who would insist that it should be possible to listen to the music and engage with it at a significant level, without knowing anything about any ideology that might originally have inspired it. Music is after all an abstract art. It's perfectly possible to listen to something like the violin concerto 'cold', and be enthralled by its musical beauty and coherence, without knowing anything at all about windflowers or Elgarian Imperialism.

My own approach is complicated by the fact that I'm fascinated by Elgar the man as well as by his music, so I continually blur the boundaries between music and biography, and revel in doing so. It's an approach that wouldn't suit everyone. Some might say that it muddies the purely musical appreciation, and I accept that, but I've never been happy about separating out the abstraction of music from life as we live it. I like the richly flavoured fare I get when I absorb them mixed up together.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 07, 2015, 02:56:12 AM
I haven't had much time lately, but I have been reading this latest discussion. Alan's posts about Elgar are often so sophisticated that I feel like an moron in comparison. I feel I understand Elgar and his music well, but there is so much in this current discussion I never think about when listening to Elgar. I don't care about jingoism. To me Elgar was born in a Kingdom that ruled "half the world" and that's it. All I know Elgar was a pacifist and that's enough for me. Maybe I have found a shortcut understanding Elgar on a simple but adequate level and I am constantly amazed how difficult of a composer Elgar is for many to get into...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 07, 2015, 04:26:37 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 07, 2015, 02:56:12 AM
I haven't had much time lately, but I have been reading this latest discussion. Alan's posts about Elgar are often so sophisticated that I feel like an moron in comparison. I feel I understand Elgar and his music well, but there is so much in this current discussion I never think about when listening to Elgar. I don't care about jingoism. To me Elgar was born in a Kingdom that ruled "half the world" and that's it. All I know Elgar was a pacifist and that's enough for me. Maybe I have found a shortcut understanding Elgar on a simple but adequate level and I am constantly amazed how difficult of a composer Elgar is for many to get into...

I understand exactly what you mean about Alan's posts and how, by comparison, whatever I have to offer seems so rudimentary. I keep reminding myself, however, that Alan's insights are based on nearly a lifetime's experience with Elgar's music and I've only found my way to Elgar in the last month. Intimidating as his posts may be, Alan himself is never intimidating. I've always found him to be the perfect gentleman, even when he doesn't agree with you. Alan, unbeknownst to him at the time, was my guide to discovering Handel via a series of posts several years ago on a Handel's operas and oratorios thread. He's serving in that same capacity now with Elgar. I find him to be a wonderful teacher.

I wouldn't say that I find Elgar difficult in the sense that now that I'm really listening to his music I just don't get it. I would say that there is a complexity and profundity to his music that, frankly, I didn't realize before now and that, accordingly, it doesn't always give up its secrets easily. And I'm discovering the same to be true of the man himself--there is an emotional, dare I say spiritual, complexity to his character thanks to the dynamic between what Alan (and others) have called the "public" and "private" Elgar that, for me, makes his music all the more fascinating. I can't separate the two, I'm finding. The more I learn about both Elgar and his music, the less I'm able to just listen to his work without thought of what, in his life, gave rise to it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 07, 2015, 08:25:07 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 07, 2015, 02:56:12 AM
I haven't had much time lately, but I have been reading this latest discussion. Alan's posts about Elgar are often so sophisticated that I feel like an moron in comparison.

Please, please don't. You aren't a moron - that much I know! What I write here are just the assorted thoughts that result from something like 50 years of listening, reading, and wandering around the Malvern Hills, and that is all they are. I don't claim to have perceived some special truth about Elgar. I've just built up a way of thinking and listening that suits me, and sometimes I find I can clarify what I think by writing about it. You're much better off listening to the music than reading what I write!

QuoteI feel I understand Elgar and his music well, but there is so much in this current discussion I never think about when listening to Elgar. I don't care about jingoism.

I know, but many people do, and they often use it as a mallet to beat Elgar with. I don't suppose I'd think about it much myself if they didn't.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 07, 2015, 12:34:30 PM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 07, 2015, 04:26:37 AM
I would say that there is a complexity and profundity to his music that, frankly, I didn't realize before now and that, accordingly, it doesn't always give up its secrets easily. And I'm discovering the same to be true of the man himself--there is an emotional, dare I say spiritual, complexity to his character thanks to the dynamic between what Alan (and others) have called the "public" and "private" Elgar that, for me, makes his music all the more fascinating. I can't separate the two, I'm finding. The more I learn about both Elgar and his music, the less I'm able to just listen to his work without thought of what, in his life, gave rise to it.

That's exactly as I've found it. I can't separate them. I'll happily concede that it might be a good thing if I did, but even if it were, I simply couldn't do it. To listen to the Introduction & Allegro for strings is, for me, like going for a walk with Elgar up the Worcester Beacon listening for the sound of the airs and harmonies hinted at by the wind in the grass, and sharing that longing of his for something undefinable but which seems to be connected with deeply-rooted Englishness and spirituality and vast skies and distant horizons. I can't think of the Enigma Variations without seeing Dora Penny dancing around Elgar's study while he played the tenth variation to her; or without hearing Winifred Norbury's gentle laughter in the eighth. I can't listen to the first symphony without remembering his comment about playing the slow movement 'like something heard down by the river'. In short, I haven't got a hope of approaching the music as pure music, at all. I suspect that for many more musical folk than I, that might discredit vast swathes of what I say about it!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on March 07, 2015, 03:17:28 PM
Elgar:
Cello Concerto         Harrison/New SO/Elgar
Symphony No 1         London SO/Elgar
Falstaff                   London SO/Elgar


Once again I listened to the electrical recordings of these works and was very pleased with the experience. These are true gems traveling through time. The cello concerto in particular (as has been expressed so many times on this thread) as well as the first symphony were both delightful and rewarding. The first symphony is becoming more and more precious to me with repeated listening. Such a complex soundscape with the ability to resonate with one's inner world.

[asin] B004MSRDK6[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on March 07, 2015, 03:22:15 PM
Elgarians,
What are your thoughts on this release of the earliest acoustic recordings of Elgar's works?
I'm sure it is mentioned in one of the previous 113 pages, but I cannot find it...

[asin] B005SQ3AU8[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on March 07, 2015, 03:58:47 PM
My fascination/love with  Elgar's music started one very early morning at the beginning of a 12 hour car drive from the tip of the Gaspé Peninsula to Montreal almost 40 years ago. As I opened the radio, a dim AM audio signal transmitted the Elgar cello concerto's beginning. I was hooked and have never looked back. Forget about high fidelity. Elgar's music travels time and space in a way no other does. It tugs the heart strings in the simplest way imaginable. You don't even notice it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 08, 2015, 12:08:48 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 07, 2015, 03:22:15 PM
Elgarians,
What are your thoughts on this release of the earliest acoustic recordings of Elgar's works?
I'm sure it is mentioned in one of the previous 113 pages, but I cannot find it...

[asin] B005SQ3AU8[/asin]

You can find my first responses to the box - and some discussion in the following posts, starting at post #1348, here:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg584688/topicseen.html#msg584688 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg584688/topicseen.html#msg584688)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 08, 2015, 12:28:05 AM
Quote from: André on March 07, 2015, 03:58:47 PM
Forget about high fidelity.

Sorry, I can't, I am an acoustic engineer. Even Elgar himself welcomed advances in audio technology when electric recording emerged around 1930. Historical recordings are interesting, but there is no need to forget good sound quality.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 08, 2015, 12:52:59 AM
Quote from: André on March 07, 2015, 03:58:47 PM
My fascination/love with  Elgar's music started one very early morning at the beginning of a 12 hour car drive from the tip of the Gaspé Peninsula to Montreal almost 40 years ago. As I opened the radio, a dim AM audio signal transmitted the Elgar cello concerto's beginning. I was hooked and have never looked back. Forget about high fidelity. Elgar's music travels time and space in a way no other does. It tugs the heart strings in the simplest way imaginable. You don't even notice it.

I think one of the most striking things about being able to listen to Elgar's own recordings - both electrical and acoustic - is that what we hear is considerably superior to what he himself would have heard, and he LOVED the medium. He got all the surface noise from the 78s; we can hear the same recordings with that largely eliminated, or at least greatly reduced. It's true that with the early purely acoustic recordings one has to make more allowances, but the electrical ones are very, very listenable. And of course when we listen to a distorted AM broadcast such as the one you refer to, we're temporarily back in a similar position. Yet still, as you say, enough of the music comes through to transform the moment.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 08, 2015, 09:22:35 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 07, 2015, 03:22:15 PM
Elgarians,
What are your thoughts on this release of the earliest acoustic recordings of Elgar's works?
I'm sure it is mentioned in one of the previous 113 pages, but I cannot find it...

[asin] B005SQ3AU8[/asin]

It's possible I have never heard Elgar's acoustic recordings. This is an unknown territory for me.   :-\
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on March 08, 2015, 09:40:03 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 13, 2011, 08:08:46 AM
This arrived this morning:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xVFhEPNVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Available from Amazon, released yesterday:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Conducts-Complete-recordings-1914-25/dp/B005SQ3AU8/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1323794487&sr=1-2 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Conducts-Complete-recordings-1914-25/dp/B005SQ3AU8/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1323794487&sr=1-2)

I listened to part of the second disc while eating my lunch: Cockaigne, In The South, and Marie Hall playing the violin concerto (cut to fit onto 4 sides). I expected crackle and pop; I expected to have to make a lot of allowances. I did not expect to have Marie Hall standing in the room, playing the VC, but that's what it seemed like.

The vividness of the recordings (bearing in mind that these are acoustic recordings, made around 1914/16) is gob-smacking. The guy responsible for the processing deserves a medal. I would never have believed this degree of restoration possible. The source was, unbelievably, Elgar's personal collection of 78s, and while he would have been playing them on HMV's state of the art players (they supplied him with gramophones, as one of their star recording artists), they must surely have taken a fair bit of wear, so it's hard to understand how they could yield something this good. It's very strange hearing Marie Hall's playing - so very different in style to Menuhin some years later, and what's more, in a stripped down version of the VC to squeeze it onto four 78 sides - but I found it deeply moving. There are personal reasons why I might shed a few tears right now, but this provides the best, not the worst of reasons for doing so.

The balance of the orchestra in all these works is obviously affected enormously by the need to group the players in front of the large acoustic horn, but in a peculiar way this gives them a greater sense of presence. It's easy to 'hear' the visual equivalent of the well-known photos taken of the making of recordings like these, and it all adds to the splendid atmosphere of this unique period of music-making and recording, with Elgar at the helm.

There's a nice booklet with photos; my only quibble is that there's no information about the digital processing - about the decisions that needed to be taken, when transferring and transforming the 78s to CD. Perhaps we don't need to know, but I'd have been interested.

Essential stuff for any Elgarian, this - preferably taken together with Jerrold Northrop Moore's comprehensive and fascinating (but sadly out of print) book: Elgar on Record:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61WIP2TOHnL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Thanks Elgarian!
I knew it had to be here somewhere. It sounds like a fascinating compilation based on your impressions. I have a tendency to feel strongly for historical recordings for some reason (perhaps it is the sound..). I think I need to hear these 78s...~~~~!!!! 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 08, 2015, 12:18:21 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 08, 2015, 09:40:03 AM
Thanks Elgarian!
I knew it had to be here somewhere. It sounds like a fascinating compilation based on your impressions. I have a tendency to feel strongly for historical recordings for some reason (perhaps it is the sound..). I think I need to hear these 78s...~~~~!!!!

The only proviso I would make, in hindsight, is that while it's wonderful to hear them once ... or even twice ... there really is a marked difference between the acoustic and electrical recordings, and I can't say I've played the acoustic set anything like as often as the electrical one.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on March 08, 2015, 12:28:20 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 08, 2015, 12:18:21 PM
The only proviso I would make, in hindsight, is that while it's wonderful to hear them once ... or even twice ... there really is a marked difference between the acoustic and electrical recordings, and I can't say I've played the acoustic set anything like as often as the electrical one.

An acquired taste, perhaps?  I love historical recordings so I suspect they will grow on me quickly!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 08, 2015, 01:13:06 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 07, 2015, 12:34:30 PM
In short, I haven't got a hope of approaching the music as pure music, at all. I suspect that for many more musical folk than I, that might discredit vast swathes of what I say about it!

Oh, I'd say just the opposite--I think it's your inability to approach Elgar as pure music that gives your insights into it the prescience they have. That, and the fact you can actually walk where Elgar walked, see what he saw, etc.

The need to experience a composer's music relative to his/her life--both inner and outer--is, for me, one of the most compelling (and, often, consuming) aspects of collecting classical music. We don't just collect symphonies, concerti, and quartets. In the realest of senses we collect lives and histories, ways of seeing and understanding. I find a composer I want to experience more, I don't just buy CDs and download mp3s. I buy biographies and memoirs and critical studies so that I'm assembling a reference library along with a music collection. Not with every composer I encounter...just those, like Elgar, whose music resonates with me at a deeper level.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 08, 2015, 02:03:41 PM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 08, 2015, 01:13:06 PM
We don't just collect symphonies, concerti, and quartets. In the realest of senses we collect lives and histories, ways of seeing and understanding.

I must say, that's exactly how I see it too. The composers that really resonate with me have nearly always shown me something valuable - something I never saw (or heard) before, but which, once seen (or heard), effects a permanent change. I wonder if you know that passage by Ruskin where he talks about his notion of a Book (as opposed to a book)? He's writing about Books, but it can be a Book, a Painting, a Symphony - any kind of art.

"The author has something to say which he perceives to be true and useful, or helpfully beautiful. So far as he knows, no one has yet said it; so far as he knows, no one else can say it. He is bound to say it, clearly and melodiously if he may; clearly at all events. In the sum of his life he finds this to be the thing, or group of things, manifest to him; - this, the piece of true knowledge or sight, which his share of sunshine and earth has permitted him to seize. He would fain set it down for ever; engrave it on rock, if he could; saying, 'This is the best of me; for the rest, I ate, and drank, and slept, loved, and hated, like another; my life was as the vapour, and is not; but this I saw and knew: this, if anything of mine, is worth your memory.' "

Listening to Elgar is like that, for me. It often seems as if he's at my elbow, saying, 'listen to this', and 'look at that'. And should anyone think I might be being too fanciful, it's worth pointing out that (a) we know that Elgar read Ruskin; and (b) he quoted the last bit of this very passage on the manuscript of Gerontius.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on March 08, 2015, 03:02:07 PM
I would just like to say I've been enjoying reading your posts, revdrdave. Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 08, 2015, 03:19:27 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 08, 2015, 03:02:07 PM
I would just to say I've been enjoying reading your posts, revdrdave. Keep up the good work!

Thank you, Mirror Image--I don't feel that I'm contributing a great deal because I'm so early on in my experience with Elgar, but I appreciate your encouragement!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on March 08, 2015, 03:22:00 PM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 08, 2015, 03:19:27 PM
Thank you, Mirror Image--I don't feel that I'm contributing a great deal because I'm so early on in my experience with Elgar, but I appreciate your encouragement!

You're welcome. Whether you have one year or 40 years experience with Elgar's music, posts about Elgar and your own journey with his music are always welcomed, and, of course, encouraged here.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 09, 2015, 12:54:15 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 08, 2015, 03:19:27 PM
I don't feel that I'm contributing a great deal ...

Doesn't seem like that to me. I'm enjoying these conversations ever so much.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 09, 2015, 04:09:23 AM
We've been discussing our collective inability to separate Elgar's music from Elgar the man...

http://www.theartsdesk.com/classical-music/elgars-enigma-love-child-named-pearl

This is link to a lengthy article that discusses Elgar's supposed relationship to Anna Nelson with whom--supposedly--he had a love child and that it is Nelson, not Alice Wortley, who was the inspiration for both the Violin Concerto and the 13th of the Enigma variations. The article says in part:

Elgar's assumed muse for the Violin Concerto has always been Mrs Alice Stuart Wortley, but the initials, reproduced in the Sunday Telegraph article, were much more obviously A.N. than A.W. If Elgar had indeed been serious when he inscribed those initials, it did not fit the standard wisdom. Furthermore, Elgar had not even met Mrs Wortley when he composed the Engima Variations, and - for what it is worth - it was the strong view of two of his close associates, the music critic Ernest Newman and the conductor Leopold Stokowski, that one and the same woman inspired both works.

I'm less intrigued that Anna Nelson may be the "assumed muse" than Alice Wortley. Either way, the Violin Concerto still reflects Elgar's struggle with deeply-felt emotions about someone. I'm more interested in how this story explains the emotional turmoil that gripped Elgar during the writing of The Kingdom and his subsequent falling-away from a faith that had been such a significant part of his life to that point.

What do the rest of you think?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 09, 2015, 09:33:25 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 09, 2015, 04:09:23 AM
We've been discussing our collective inability to separate Elgar's music from Elgar the man...

http://www.theartsdesk.com/classical-music/elgars-enigma-love-child-named-pearl

This is link to a lengthy article that discusses Elgar's supposed relationship to Anna Nelson with whom--supposedly--he had a love child and that it is Nelson, not Alice Wortley, who was the inspiration for both the Violin Concerto and the 13th of the Enigma variations. The article says in part:

Elgar's assumed muse for the Violin Concerto has always been Mrs Alice Stuart Wortley, but the initials, reproduced in the Sunday Telegraph article, were much more obviously A.N. than A.W. If Elgar had indeed been serious when he inscribed those initials, it did not fit the standard wisdom. Furthermore, Elgar had not even met Mrs Wortley when he composed the Engima Variations, and - for what it is worth - it was the strong view of two of his close associates, the music critic Ernest Newman and the conductor Leopold Stokowski, that one and the same woman inspired both works.

I'm less intrigued that Anna Nelson may be the "assumed muse" than Alice Wortley. Either way, the Violin Concerto still reflects Elgar's struggle with deeply-felt emotions about someone. I'm more interested in how this story explains the emotional turmoil that gripped Elgar during the writing of The Kingdom and his subsequent falling-away from a faith that had been such a significant part of his life to that point.

What do the rest of you think?

This A.N. business is completely new to me. It's not surprising, I think. Elgar fell in love several times in his life. There was Helen Weaver  before he married Alice. It's always supposed that he had a very close relationship with Alice Stuart Wortley, though no one knows how close, exactly. He had a fleeting passion for the violinist Jelly D'Aranyi at some point. After Alice Elgar's death he fell in love with Vera Hockman - who inspired the lovely theme in the third symphony. As far as I know there's no reason to suppose the inspiration for the 13th variation had anything to do with the inspiration for the VC. (We DO know that he referred to the 'windflowery bits' in the VC when discussing it with Alice Wortley.) So ... why not Anna Nelson as another lady in his life?

I agree with you  David. As far as we listeners to the music are concerned, it doesn't matter which of his muses was engaged in any given piece - it's that 'eternal feminine' that counts, whoever it was at the time.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 09, 2015, 11:52:19 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 09, 2015, 09:33:25 AM
As far as I know there's no reason to suppose the inspiration for the 13th variation had anything to do with the inspiration for the VC.

Well, only the insistence of Ernest Newman and Leopold Stokowski that it was the same woman.  In any case, re: the so-called "windflower" themes in the Violin Concerto...did Elgar himself refer to the themes that way or did the reference arise after the fact because Elgar referred to the Violin Concerto as "our concerto," i.e. Alice Wortley and her nickname was "windflower"?  If the reference came from Elgar himself, that would seem to mitigate against the possibility that the muse for the concerto was Anna Nelson.  On the other hand, if the themes were so named after the fact, they could just as easily have been called the "Nelson" themes, assuming it was known then about Elgar's relationship with Anna (although, admittedly, "windflower" is a good deal more evocative name for the themes than "Nelson").

All that said, there's still the question of the impact of Elgar's relationship with Anna on his Catholicism.  I know comparatively little about that period in Elgar's life, but I do know his Catholic faith had been a significant part of his life.  It thus struck me as odd that he'd turn his back on Catholicism--and, apparently, God--as a consequence of a nervous breakdown of sorts brought on by his struggles in finishing The Kingdom.  Even if we allow for the possibility that Elgar's Catholicism was more cultural than the consequence of a deep spiritual commitment (witness his comment after the disastrous premier of Gerontius, "I always said God was against art and I still believe it...I have allowed my heart to open once--it is now shut against every religious feeling and every soft, gentle impulse for ever") it's difficult to see how a struggle with finishing The Kingdom could result in a spiritual crisis of a magnitude sufficient to drive Elgar to turn his back on his faith.  However, if we assume that the story of his relationship with Anna Nelson is true, the shame and stress of being discovered as having fathered a child outside of his marriage goes much further in explaining Elgar's actions.

All speculation, of course, and none of it probably had any significant impact on his music.  Still, it potentially lifts the veil on a part of Elgar's life and character that provides additional insight into the issues in his life.  And, if true, it does put a slightly different spin on the whole matter of the "eternal feminine'," doesn't it?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 09, 2015, 01:56:30 PM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 09, 2015, 11:52:19 AM
Well, only the insistence of Ernest Newman and Leopold Stokowski that it was the same woman. 

There's no shortage of opinions on these things - I just don't know of much actual evidence one way or another. A case has been made for Helen Weaver as the 13th variation, but I can't see any way of being sure.

QuoteIn any case, re: the so-called "windflower" themes in the Violin Concerto...did Elgar himself refer to the themes that way or did the reference arise after the fact because Elgar referred to the Violin Concerto as "our concerto," i.e. Alice Wortley and her nickname was "windflower"?  If the reference came from Elgar himself, that would seem to mitigate against the possibility that the muse for the concerto was Anna Nelson.  On the other hand, if the themes were so named after the fact, they could just as easily have been called the "Nelson" themes, assuming it was known then about Elgar's relationship with Anna (although, admittedly, "windflower" is a good deal more evocative name for the themes than "Nelson").

I don't recall the details, but I don't think there's much doubt that 'windflower' is Elgar's way of linking those themes from the VC with Alice Wortley. But I do wonder how slippery the 'windflower' idea might have been - that is, I suspect Elgar's feminine ideal was a transferable thing, perceived in all his lady friends to some degree. I mentioned earlier the theme from the third symphony, and it sounds ever so windflowery to me - but it is definitely linked with Vera Hockman, not Alice W.

QuoteAll that said, there's still the question of the impact of Elgar's relationship with Anna on his Catholicism.  I know comparatively little about that period in Elgar's life, but I do know his Catholic faith had been a significant part of his life.  It thus struck me as odd that he'd turn his back on Catholicism--and, apparently, God--as a consequence of a nervous breakdown of sorts brought on by his struggles in finishing The Kingdom.  Even if we allow for the possibility that Elgar's Catholicism was more cultural than the consequence of a deep spiritual commitment (witness his comment after the disastrous premier of Gerontius, "I always said God was against art and I still believe it...I have allowed my heart to open once--it is now shut against every religious feeling and every soft, gentle impulse for ever") it's difficult to see how a struggle with finishing The Kingdom could result in a spiritual crisis of a magnitude sufficient to drive Elgar to turn his back on his faith.  However, if we assume that the story of his relationship with Anna Nelson is true, the shame and stress of being discovered as having fathered a child outside of his marriage goes much further in explaining Elgar's actions.

I don't know anything about the background to Elgar's loss of his faith. As you say, this A.N. business may well shed important light on that. I'd not actually thought that a 'reason' could necessarily be found - there's that story of him conducting The Kingdom in tears, isn't there? It could  illuminate that, one might think. I'd always assumed (with no evidence at all!) that, for whatever reason, he lost his faith during the course of writing  it, and the tears resulted from his recognition that he'd created a masterpiece based on something he no longer believed. But I'm just rambling now. Time to stop!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on March 09, 2015, 03:01:11 PM
Elgar:
Enigma Variations (original piano version)
and other piano pieces
Maria Garzon


It is interesting how different characteristics emerge as one hear pieces transcribed to the piano. The Enigma variations as performed by Maria Garzon are delightful and seem to occupy those enigmatic ( ;)) spaces between sleep and wakefulness that tunnel through space and time. They certainly filled my mind this afternoon. Now I need to revisit Ashley Wass' performance!


[asin] B00001W088[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51B8ASerTbL.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 09, 2015, 03:39:48 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 09, 2015, 03:01:11 PM
Elgar:
Enigma Variations (original piano version)
and other piano pieces
Maria Garzon


It is interesting how different characteristics emerge as one hear pieces transcribed to the piano. The Enigma variations as performed by Maria Garzon are delightful and seem to occupy those enigmatic ( ;)) spaces between sleep and wakefulness that tunnel through space and time. They certainly filled my mind this afternoon. Now I need to revisit Ashley Wass' performance!


[asin] B00001W088[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51B8ASerTbL.jpg)

Thanks for the write up, Peter.
I only have the Waas performance, and am interested in knowing if there is a clear difference in interpretation. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hiker on March 10, 2015, 04:51:47 AM
I'm still awaiting the discovery of a rumoured Conan Doyle manuscript: The Adventure of the Enigma Variations.

After a fitful night's sleep, I left my room to find Holmes already taking his breakfast, a slice of toast in one hand and a well-thumbed Baedeker in the other.

"Watson, before you take advantage of Mrs Hudson's culinary prowess, would you do me the great favour of fetching the volume marked "N" from the bookcase? The three minutes required to boil your egg should leave me enough time to satisfy my curiosity before we leave for Paddington. I trust that you have no objection to visiting Great Malvern today?"
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 10, 2015, 07:19:24 AM
Quote from: Hiker on March 10, 2015, 04:51:47 AM
I'm still awaiting the discovery of a rumoured Conan Doyle manuscript: The Adventure of the Enigma Variations.

Don't know if you're joking or not, but there is a short story by an author named James Miles, "The Worcester Enigma," that has Holmes meeting Elgar and offering a solution to the mystery of the Enigma Variations.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 10, 2015, 08:52:05 AM
The game is definitely afoot.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Klaatu on March 10, 2015, 12:06:42 PM
Not Sherlockian, but this Elgar mystery is worth a read:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Z78YAlzBL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-v3-big,TopRight,0,-55_SX324_SY324_PIkin4,BottomRight,1,22_AA346_SH20_OU02_.jpg)

...while this Elgar novel is outstanding:

(http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1312048454l/1033254.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 11, 2015, 01:05:54 AM
Here's another curious piece of Elgar fiction:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NyN%2BAksUL.jpg)

It's basically a novel woven around Dora Penny's relationship with Elgar. The most notable thing about it, for me, was the imagined description of Dora's 40-mile journey on her bicycle from Wolverhampton to Malvern. Not a great novel, but I found it entertaining.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 11, 2015, 03:36:34 PM
All this conversation about Elgar in fiction raises a question: what, in your opinion, are the top five must-read books on Elgar?

I'm currently reading Michael Kennedy's Life of Elgar because it seemed like a good place to start an exploration of Elgar's life (although 40 pages in I'm still waiting for it to grab me...nothing yet) and I'm thinking about Diana McVeagh's Elgar: The Music Maker next.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 12, 2015, 01:31:01 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 11, 2015, 03:36:34 PM
All this conversation about Elgar in fiction raises a question: what, in your opinion, are the top five must-read books on Elgar?

They're going to be different for everyone according to temperament, of course, but I'll list the five books that, if I had to give all my other Elgar books away, would be the five I'd keep. Certainly these have given me the greatest pleasure to read, and re-read, often several times over. (Pace Michael Kennedy, but I find his writing style tends to put me to sleep, for some reason.)

1. Dora Powell: Memories of a Variation. My favourite Elgar book, of all Elgar books. Get the later edition (third, I think) which has extra material. The writer is Dora Penny (Powell is her married name), that is, 'Dorabella' of the Enigma Variations. An indispensable 'I-was-there' book.

2. Rosa Burley: The Record of a Friendship. Headmistress of the school where Elgar taught the violin before he was famous, and later a cycling companion and close friend. When asked why she wasn't a 'Variation', she replied 'I'm the theme!'

3. W.H. Reed. Elgar as I knew him. Violin player and friend. He was there when Elgar was composing the violin concerto, playing it through with him with sheets of manuscript scattered about the room.

4. Jerrold Northrop Moore: Elgar on record. Fascinating account of Elgar's involvement with recording for the gramophone. The perfect companion to the CD box of Elgar's electrical recordings.

5. Kevin Allen: Elgar in Love. I found myself with wet eyes several times while reading this for the first time. The tale of how old Sir Edward Elgar fell in love with a young violinist, Vera Hockman, who also fell in love with him. The third symphony was never quite the same again after I'd read this.

If you're going to read a biography, go for the big one:
Jerrold Northrop Moore: Edward Elgar. A Creative Life.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 12, 2015, 04:03:53 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 12, 2015, 01:31:01 AM
They're going to be different for everyone according to temperament, of course, but I'll list the five books that, if I had to give all my other Elgar books away, would be the five I'd keep. Certainly these have given me the greatest pleasure to read, and re-read, often several times over. (Pace Michael Kennedy, but I find his writing style tends to put me to sleep, for some reason.)

1. Dora Powell: Memories of a Variation. My favourite Elgar book, of all Elgar books. Get the later edition (third, I think) which has extra material. The writer is Dora Penny (Powell is her married name), that is, 'Dorabella' of the Enigma Variations. An indispensable 'I-was-there' book.

2. Rosa Burley: The Record of a Friendship. Headmistress of the school where Elgar taught the violin before he was famous, and later a cycling companion and close friend. When asked why she wasn't a 'Variation', she replied 'I'm the theme!'

3. W.H. Reed. Elgar as I knew him. Violin player and friend. He was there when Elgar was composing the violin concerto, playing it through with him with sheets of manuscript scattered about the room.

4. Jerrold Northrop Moore: Elgar on record. Fascinating account of Elgar's involvement with recording for the gramophone. The perfect companion to the CD box of Elgar's electrical recordings.

5. Kevin Allen: Elgar in Love. I found myself with wet eyes several times while reading this for the first time. The tale of how old Sir Edward Elgar fell in love with a young violinist, Vera Hockman, who also fell in love with him. The third symphony was never quite the same again after I'd read this.

If you're going to read a biography, go for the big one:
Jerrold Northrop Moore: Edward Elgar. A Creative Life.

Thanks, Alan--I really appreciate your recommendations, but couldn't you have chosen cheaper books?  ;D
I'll have to take out a second mortgage on my house to purchase these!

You're right about Kennedy's writing style... At least in the Elgar book, it's pretty dreadful. I have his book on the music of Vaughan Williams and it's much better, almost as if it was written by a different author.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 12, 2015, 07:16:18 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 12, 2015, 04:03:53 AM
couldn't you have chosen cheaper books?  ;D

Well I did wonder about that! But I think the only really expensive ones are the two Northrop Moores, aren't they? Or am I too far out of touch?

Dorabella can be easily picked up, for instance:

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=15300877844&searchurl=tn%3Dmemories+variation%26an%3Dpowell%26sts%3Dt (http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=15300877844&searchurl=tn%3Dmemories+variation%26an%3Dpowell%26sts%3Dt)

I hasten to add that when I bought all of these, none of them had been elevated to the ranks of fancy priced rarities.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 12, 2015, 11:09:19 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 12, 2015, 07:16:18 AM
Well I did wonder about that! But I think the only really expensive ones are the two Northrop Moores, aren't they? Or am I too far out of touch?

Dorabella can be easily picked up, for instance:

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=15300877844&searchurl=tn%3Dmemories+variation%26an%3Dpowell%26sts%3Dt (http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=15300877844&searchurl=tn%3Dmemories+variation%26an%3Dpowell%26sts%3Dt)

I hasten to add that when I bought all of these, none of them had been elevated to the ranks of fancy priced rarities.

Well, OK.  A cursory search had me looking at $500 for all six books, but I spent some more time and found copies of all six for $150, which is more doable.

In case you're interested, here's the cost I found for each (including shipping):
Powell (from the UK) $20
Burley $39
Reed $4
Moore (Elgar on Record) $4
Allen $25
Moore (Creative Life) $54

All this said, I've been spending most of my evenings lately--while listening to Elgar--trolling the internet about Elgar and I'm surprised at the volume (and depth) of research and writing about Elgar.  Much of it is speculative in nature which, I suppose, shouldn't be surprising given that what we don't know with certainty about Elgar is likely more interesting than what we do (though the same could be said about many of us).  Much of it seems to have been written within the past 20 years or so, suggesting a resurgence of interest in the man and his music.  It's also interesting to me in searching out and reading critical responses to Elgar's music, whether on classical chat forums like this one or from professional critics, that rarely is someone lukewarm about Elgar.  He usually generates intense interest or intense dislike; it's rare to encounter indifference.  And, on the chat forums in particular, it's equally interesting to discover how many of those who respond positively to Elgar do so, like me, after a period of not liking Elgar or simply ignoring him altogether. 

All of which leads me to wonder if there's something about Elgar's music that only reveals itself to us as listeners once we have a certain amount of life behind us.  In posing that, I'm not suggesting Elgar is unique in this respect.  In my own listening, I know that I've responded in completely new (and, I think, deeper) ways in the last few years to, say, Sibelius and Mahler, than I did when I listened to them 20 years ago.  Partly, that's me.  But I think it also must do with the composer and the music, too.  Elgar's Cello Concerto is a good example.  It contains, in its way, a lifetime of longing and regret...for people, for love, for a way of life...that, as listeners, is unlikely to resonate with us fully unless/until we ourselves have lived through (and, in some measure, come to terms with) longing and regret of our own.     
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 12, 2015, 11:30:31 AM
Alright, Alan...Powell, Reed, Allen, and Moore (Elgar on Record) are on the way.  Burley and Moore (Creative Life) will follow in due course.  And, in the meantime, I'll continue to slog through Kennedy.

Of course, once Elgar on Record arrives, then I have to buy the 9 disc EMI set of the electrical recordings, don't I?  See what you've started?  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 12, 2015, 01:43:37 PM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 12, 2015, 11:09:19 AM
All of which leads me to wonder if there's something about Elgar's music that only reveals itself to us as listeners once we have a certain amount of life behind us.  In posing that, I'm not suggesting Elgar is unique in this respect.  In my own listening, I know that I've responded in completely new (and, I think, deeper) ways in the last few years to, say, Sibelius and Mahler, than I did when I listened to them 20 years ago.  Partly, that's me.  But I think it also must do with the composer and the music, too.  Elgar's Cello Concerto is a good example.  It contains, in its way, a lifetime of longing and regret...for people, for love, for a way of life...that, as listeners, is unlikely to resonate with us fully unless/until we ourselves have lived through (and, in some measure, come to terms with) longing and regret of our own.     

I think there's something in that. Working on the assumption that we grow in response to the things we encounter, we're going to (one hopes) understand more as we go on (though sometimes I wonder if that implies a growing realisation that I understand less than I thought). But heck, I was 16 when I first heard Introduction & Allegro, Enigma, and the 1st symphony - and I was never the same after that. The mere name 'Elgar' acquired a suggestive power all of its own. But in support of your theory, it took me a lot longer to come to terms with the two concertos, because, as you suggest, I didn't have the life experience to bring to them.

I went bonkers about Sibelius at about the same time too, though he never got so completely under my skin as Elgar did.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 12, 2015, 01:52:31 PM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 12, 2015, 11:30:31 AM
Alright, Alan...Powell, Reed, Allen, and Moore (Elgar on Record) are on the way.  Burley and Moore (Creative Life) will follow in due course.  And, in the meantime, I'll continue to slog through Kennedy.

That's a great start! Be warned, you may fall in love with Dorabella.

QuoteOf course, once Elgar on Record arrives, then I have to buy the 9 disc EMI set of the electrical recordings, don't I?  See what you've started?  ;)

Yes there's no point in having the book if you don't have the recordings. But that CD box is a phenomenal bargain, and the great thing about it is this: when you're listening to the recordings, you know it's him. These performances are what he wanted us to hear. They are what he played and listened to on his own gramophone. Frankly, I can't listen to them dispassionately at all. The knowledge that this is - no ifs, no buts - exactly what he listened to, makes a personal connection that wipes away the intervening time. Come in, Sir Edward. Please sit down. Cup of tea? Something stronger?
Was it really 'Auld Lang Syne?' by the way .......
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 12, 2015, 03:30:19 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 12, 2015, 01:52:31 PM
That's a great start! Be warned, you may fall in love with Dorabella.

Yes there's no point in having the book if you don't have the recordings. But that CD box is a phenomenal bargain, and the great thing about it is this: when you're listening to the recordings, you know it's him. These performances are what he wanted us to hear. They are what he played and listened to on his own gramophone. Frankly, I can't listen to them dispassionately at all. The knowledge that this is - no ifs, no buts - exactly what he listened to, makes a personal connection that wipes away the intervening time. Come in, Sir Edward. Please sit down. Cup of tea? Something stronger?
Was it really 'Auld Lang Syne?' by the way .......

Yes, I envy you the particular degree of closeness to Elgar you must feel from listening to Elgar's own performances living, as I believe you do, so close to the very part of England where Elgar lived and worked...a closeness that doesn't quite make the trip across the Atlantic and two-thirds of the United States to Colorado! And now, of course, I'm scouring the internet for the best deal I can find on the EMI set of electrical recordings...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on March 12, 2015, 04:06:38 PM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 12, 2015, 11:09:19 AM
Well, OK.  A cursory search had me looking at $500 for all six books, but I spent some more time and found copies of all six for $150, which is more doable.

In case you're interested, here's the cost I found for each (including shipping):
Powell (from the UK) $20
Burley $39
Reed $4
Moore (Elgar on Record) $4
Allen $25
Moore (Creative Life) $54


You can get a PB of Moore's Creative Life at Amazon for about $15 ("good" condition)....     :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 12, 2015, 04:23:45 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 12, 2015, 04:06:38 PM
You can get a PB of Moore's Creative Life at Amazon for about $15 ("good" condition)....     :)

Thanks for the info, Moonfish, but I'm not finding a copy for $15. Can you give me a link?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on March 12, 2015, 06:41:43 PM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 12, 2015, 04:23:45 PM
Thanks for the info, Moonfish, but I'm not finding a copy for $15. Can you give me a link?

Hmm, a few copies sold in the interim. They are now at $15 +S/H. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0192840142/ref=tmm_pap_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&sr=&qid=)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 12, 2015, 07:14:23 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 12, 2015, 06:41:43 PM
Hmm, a few copies sold in the interim. They are now at $15 +S/H. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0192840142/ref=tmm_pap_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&sr=&qid=)

Wow...for some reason this version of the book never showed up when I searched for it. Many thanks, Moonfish!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on March 12, 2015, 07:44:28 PM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 12, 2015, 07:14:23 PM
Wow...for some reason this version of the book never showed up when I searched for it. Many thanks, Moonfish!
Of course! Yes, it did not show for me either. I backtracked with an ISBN from Abe's books and then it showed up. Strange!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 13, 2015, 01:01:39 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 12, 2015, 03:30:19 PM
Yes, I envy you the particular degree of closeness to Elgar you must feel from listening to Elgar's own performances living, as I believe you do, so close to the very part of England where Elgar lived and worked...a closeness that doesn't quite make the trip across the Atlantic and two-thirds of the United States to Colorado! And now, of course, I'm scouring the internet for the best deal I can find on the EMI set of electrical recordings...

Well, not so close as to become satiated with Elgar country, but close enough to be very familiar with it - I'm a two and a half hour drive away from Malvern, which means it's not on my doorstep but I can always get there whenever I really want to.

Good luck with the hunt for a cheap box of electric recordings - there are plenty of good deals out there that won't break the bank:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B004MSRDK6/ref=sr_1_1_twi_1_olp?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1426236630&sr=1-1&keywords=elgar+electrical (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B004MSRDK6/ref=sr_1_1_twi_1_olp?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1426236630&sr=1-1&keywords=elgar+electrical)

Nicely spotted by Moonfish - those p/back copies of Moore's biography. It's a great doorstep of a book that must tax the limits of paperback binding, I think! Incidentally there's a project under way to publish all Elgar's correspondence. There are some volumes already out there, though they cost an arm and a leg, and must be some way down the priority list for all but the most committed Elgar enthusiasts I think:

http://www.elgar.org/6welcome.htm (http://www.elgar.org/6welcome.htm)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Klaatu on March 13, 2015, 01:33:12 AM
I have the great fortune to live on the Malvern Hills, as close to Elgar Country as it's possible to get - his grave is a few hundred yards away and his Malvern home, 'Craeg Lea', is a few hundred yards in the opposite direction. There is indeed a special magic about hearing E.E.'s music so near to where he lived and worked.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 13, 2015, 04:28:11 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 13, 2015, 01:01:39 AM
Well, not so close as to become satiated with Elgar country, but close enough to be very familiar with it - I'm a two and a half hour drive away from Malvern, which means it's not on my doorstep but I can always get there whenever I really want to.

Good luck with the hunt for a cheap box of electric recordings - there are plenty of good deals out there that won't break the bank:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B004MSRDK6/ref=sr_1_1_twi_1_olp?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1426236630&sr=1-1&keywords=elgar+electrical (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B004MSRDK6/ref=sr_1_1_twi_1_olp?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1426236630&sr=1-1&keywords=elgar+electrical)

Nicely spotted by Moonfish - those p/back copies of Moore's biography. It's a great doorstep of a book that must tax the limits of paperback binding, I think! Incidentally there's a project under way to publish all Elgar's correspondence. There are some volumes already out there, though they cost an arm and a leg, and must be some way down the priority list for all but the most committed Elgar enthusiasts I think:

http://www.elgar.org/6welcome.htm (http://www.elgar.org/6welcome.htm)

Thanks, Alan, for the link to the electrical recordings. Actually, the least expensive option I've found is on eBay. Prices on Amazon can be deceptive. The default shipping is always $3.99 but if, for example, the item is coming from the UK (as is the case with the first, least expensive ones in the link) the shipping is actually $14.99.

I ended up ordering the Moore biography (thanks to Moonfish) so I have copies coming of all the books you recommended except Burley.

Speaking of the Moore biography/doorstep, I assume, Alan (and others), that you've read it--what do you think of it? I continue to slog through Kennedy but it's not getting any better...really a dreadful read.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 13, 2015, 04:30:26 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on March 13, 2015, 01:33:12 AM
I have the great fortune to live on the Malvern Hills, as close to Elgar Country as it's possible to get - his grave is a few hundred yards away and his Malvern home, 'Craeg Lea', is a few hundred yards in the opposite direction. There is indeed a special magic about hearing E.E.'s music so near to where he lived and worked.

There isn't an emoticon for envy, so this will have to do: :-\
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 13, 2015, 11:36:28 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 13, 2015, 04:28:11 AM
Speaking of the Moore biography/doorstep, I assume, Alan (and others), that you've read it--what do you think of it? I continue to slog through Kennedy but it's not getting any better...really a dreadful read.

I'll shock you. I've never actually read the Moore biog all the way through! I use it more as a reference book. By the time I managed to get hold of Moore's, I'd read several Elgar biographies without much enthusiasm for them as literature, and suddenly they seemed superfluous. Obviously one needs a biography of some sort, and Moore's seems to be as close to being definitive as we're likely to get.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 13, 2015, 01:09:02 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 13, 2015, 11:36:28 AM
I'll shock you. I've never actually read the Moore biog all the way through! I use it more as a reference book. By the time I managed to get hold of Moore's, I'd read several Elgar biographies without much enthusiasm for them as literature, and suddenly they seemed superfluous. Obviously one needs a biography of some sort, and Moore's seems to be as close to being definitive as we're likely to get.

You've never read Moore??? ???  You're right: I'm shocked.  I'd have bet money that you snapped it up and devoured it as soon as it came out.  Well, as much as one can devour an 850+ page book.  OK, clearly what's needed is an Elgar biography that is literature--and you're probably the man for the job!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 13, 2015, 01:22:33 PM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 13, 2015, 01:09:02 PM
You've never read Moore??? ???  You're right: I'm shocked.  I'd have bet money that you snapped it up and devoured it as soon as it came out.  Well, as much as one can devour an 850+ page book.  OK, clearly what's needed is an Elgar biography that is literature--and you're probably the man for the job!

'Oh no I'm not!' he chortled.

I think the point is that by the time I acquired a copy of the Moore bio, all I felt I needed to do was dip into it in the areas that particularly interested me - and that's how I've always used the book since. If I'd never read any Elgar biographies, I'd have read it all through, cover to cover: it really is the obvious recommendation for the biography of choice. And just between you and me, I don't read every article in the Elgar Society Journal either. Just look at these confessions pouring out!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 13, 2015, 01:23:27 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on March 13, 2015, 01:33:12 AM
I have the great fortune to live on the Malvern Hills, as close to Elgar Country as it's possible to get - his grave is a few hundred yards away and his Malvern home, 'Craeg Lea', is a few hundred yards in the opposite direction. There is indeed a special magic about hearing E.E.'s music so near to where he lived and worked.

You're a lucky, lucky chap!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on March 13, 2015, 11:01:25 PM
Do the remasterings on the Naxos label of Symphony No 2 and the Cello Concerto differ at all in sound quality from the ones in the EMI/Warner electrical recording edition?  Does anybody know?

[asin] B000NTPAN0[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on March 13, 2015, 11:19:29 PM
Elgar:
Enigma Variations 
Royal Albert Hall Orchestra/Elgar

(1926)

Violin Concerto            Menuhin   
London SO/Elgar

(1932)

Wonderful historical recordings! I have listened to this specific disc several times over the last two days. A keeper for sure! For some odd reason this is becoming my favorite rendition of the Enigma Variations. I wonder if it is the ambience of the historical recordings, the psychology of knowing that Elgar himself is conducting and/or that the performances are magnificent? Perhaps it is a combination of all three factors shaping the perfect Elgar storm? The Enigma Variations have never sounded so haunting and delicate to my ears before this encounter. Hmm, maybe I am just a sucker for historical recordings as they add the feeling of a tunnel reaching through time and space in a very different fashion compared to modern recordings?  This set continues to bring rich moments to my life as I continue to explore it.

[asin] B004MSRDK6[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 14, 2015, 02:49:04 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 13, 2015, 11:01:25 PM
Do the remasterings on the Naxos label of Symphony No 2 and the Cello Concerto differ at all in sound quality from the ones in the EMI/Warner electrical recording edition?  Does anybody know?

Some years ago I did a comparison of the three available remasterings of the Beatrice Harrison cello concerto - the two you mention, and the Mike Dutton remastering. They are all slightly different because of the compromises that are made during the cleaning up - if you clean up more, you lose ambience; if you clean up less, you keep more ambience but get more noise.

My feeling was that I slightly preferred the Dutton to the other two, because the music seemed to have a bit more space to breathe in. But in all honesty, I'm quite sure that without careful direct A/B/C comparison, I wouldn't able to guess which I was listening to, and my enjoyment of the music certainly doesn't depend on it in any way. Of course others may be more sensitive to the differences.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on March 14, 2015, 05:12:02 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 13, 2015, 01:22:33 PM
'Oh no I'm not!' he chortled.

I think the point is that by the time I acquired a copy of the Moore bio, all I felt I needed to do was dip into it in the areas that particularly interested me - and that's how I've always used the book since. If I'd never read any Elgar biographies, I'd have read it all through, cover to cover: it really is the obvious recommendation for the biography of choice. And just between you and me, I don't read every article in the Elgar Society Journal either. Just look at these confessions pouring out!

Lay your burden down!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 14, 2015, 12:03:39 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 14, 2015, 05:12:02 AM
Lay your burden down!

The Moore biography is a VERY hefty tome, and would make a good metaphor for the burden of my conscience.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on March 14, 2015, 12:17:47 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 14, 2015, 02:49:04 AM
Some years ago I did a comparison of the three available remasterings of the Beatrice Harrison cello concerto - the two you mention, and the Mike Dutton remastering. They are all slightly different because of the compromises that are made during the cleaning up - if you clean up more, you lose ambience; if you clean up less, you keep more ambience but get more noise.

My feeling was that I slightly preferred the Dutton to the other two, because the music seemed to have a bit more space to breathe in. But in all honesty, I'm quite sure that without careful direct A/B/C comparison, I wouldn't able to guess which I was listening to, and my enjoyment of the music certainly doesn't depend on it in any way. Of course others may be more sensitive to the differences.

Thanks, Elgarian!
I was quite impressed with the remastering in the Elgar Electrical Recordings edition. It would be a miracle if the Naxos rendition surpassed it in any major way. I appreciate your impressions although I am well aware of how perceptions are likely to vary. After all, that is the beauty of music.  I still cannot quite get over how good the electrical recordings sound. The people involved in the project must have been completely devoted to bringing the music alive again.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on March 14, 2015, 12:19:28 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 14, 2015, 12:03:39 PM
The Moore biography is a VERY hefty tome, and would make a good metaphor for the burden of my conscience.

In my house the Moore biography will be in good company. Hefty tomes truly abound in my book stacks...  ;)   
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 14, 2015, 12:25:04 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 14, 2015, 12:19:28 PM
In my house the Moore biography will be in god company. Hefty tomes truly abound in my book stacks...  ;)

Sharing shelf space with all your Bibles?  ;D ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on March 14, 2015, 12:36:19 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 14, 2015, 12:25:04 PM
Sharing shelf space with all your Bibles?  ;D ;)

Sarge

err....good company...   :-[ .... Elgar's music?    ;)
*slippery keyboard*
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 15, 2015, 07:04:11 PM
Finished the Kennedy biography of Elgar. Wish I could say it got better. I can't...so poorly written, so many areas unexplored, so many questions unanswered. I did, however, come away from the book thinking how much of Elgar's behavior fits that of someone with bipolar disorder.

I have my hopes now pinned on the Moore biography, which is on its way. As is the EMI set of all the electrical recordings.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 16, 2015, 02:01:51 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 15, 2015, 07:04:11 PM
Finished the Kennedy biography of Elgar. Wish I could say it got better. I can't...so poorly written, so many areas unexplored, so many questions unanswered. I did, however, come away from the book thinking how much of Elgar's behavior fits that of someone with bipolar disorder.

I have my hopes now pinned on the Moore biography, which is on its way. As is the EMI set of all the electrical recordings.

I share your view of the Kennedy biography, so congratulations on getting to the end of it.

I do feel though ... well, those other books I listed - Dora, Rosa, and Billy Reed ... after I'd read those, I felt as if I knew Elgar in a way that no formal biography has ever come close to offering. Moore has all the facts - well, as many as you can fit into 800+ pages. But I'm talking about connaitre, rather than savoir, here. All three (D, R, & B) are needed, because each account is biased according to the nature of their friendship with Elgar. Dora on her own (though my favourite) is too gushing; Rosa too stern; Billy too respectful. But taken together they create a very vivid portrait - and a real portrait too, which is not just a likeness, but offers some inner knowledge of the man. So I'd recommend pinning your hopes on them, rather than Moore, to provide what I think you might be looking for.

Not sure about the bipolar, though I understand why you said it. Certainly the graph of Elgar's mental state would be far from even: lots of jagged ups and downs. There's a characteristic mood swing that takes place whenever he finishes a major work, where he plummets into despair and seems to hate what he's just made. That has a bipolar character to it, but I don't know what it must be like to produce a seriously sublime piece of work, 'all systems full on' for months on end, and then, suddenly, STOP, when it's done. I have no idea what degree of mental intensity is involved in such a process, or what it feels like to stop. I get the merest glimmer of what it might be like, from knowing how I feel when I finish a writing project of my own, but there's such a gulf between that, and what he did, that it can be no more than a glimmer.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 16, 2015, 07:47:40 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 16, 2015, 02:01:51 AM
I share your view of the Kennedy biography, so congratulations on getting to the end of it.

I do feel though ... well, those other books I listed - Dora, Rosa, and Billy Reed ... after I'd read those, I felt as if I knew Elgar in a way that no formal biography has ever come close to offering. Moore has all the facts - well, as many as you can fit into 800+ pages. But I'm talking about connaitre, rather than savoir, here. All three (D, R, & B) are needed, because each account is biased according to the nature of their friendship with Elgar. Dora on her own (though my favourite) is too gushing; Rosa too stern; Billy too respectful. But taken together they create a very vivid portrait - and a real portrait too, which is not just a likeness, but offers some inner knowledge of the man. So I'd recommend pinning your hopes on them, rather than Moore, to provide what I think you might be looking for.

Not sure about the bipolar, though I understand why you said it. Certainly the graph of Elgar's mental state would be far from even: lots of jagged ups and downs. There's a characteristic mood swing that takes place whenever he finishes a major work, where he plummets into despair and seems to hate what he's just made. That has a bipolar character to it, but I don't know what it must be like to produce a seriously sublime piece of work, 'all systems full on' for months on end, and then, suddenly, STOP, when it's done. I have no idea what degree of mental intensity is involved in such a process, or what it feels like to stop. I get the merest glimmer of what it might be like, from knowing how I feel when I finish a writing project of my own, but there's such a gulf between that, and what he did, that it can be no more than a glimmer.

Yes--Dora, Rosa, and Billy Reed would have an intimate knowledge of Elgar in the way Moore could not, no matter how long his biography or how many facts it contains.  Knowing about someone clearly is not the same as knowing them.  I have these other books coming as well and will probably read them before I read Moore.

A further thought about the possibility of Elgar being bipolar (acknowledging up front that this is nothing but speculation on my part)... Yes, there were the inevitable emotional crashes after he completed a major work, but the mood swings were not limited just to times such as those.  Whatever the shortcomings of the Kennedy biography, he does do a good job of charting Elgar's rollercoaster-like emotions, page after page of quotes from letters where Elgar writes of being un-appreciated, written-out, and unable to see anything but misery and meaninglessness, only to then, several days later, be up again as a consequence of a visit from/to someone or a conducting engagement that went well.  Kennedy often refers to these moods of Elgar's as "tiresome," suggesting that such an assessment is not his alone but was shared by a number of Elgar's acquaintances.  Elgar certainly wouldn't be alone as a manic depressive--classical music history, to the extent the condition can be diagnosed in hindsight, is full of bipolar musicians (Mahler and Otto Klemperer quickly come to mind). 

Now--why does it matter if Elgar was bipolar?  Well, only to the extent that it helps explain his character--why he vacillated between charming and boorish behavior--and, to the extent it impacted his composing, the duplicity often found in his music.  The "inner" and "outer" Elgar, in other words, might have something to do with the manic and depressive Elgar.  To provide a concrete example: if Elgar was bipolar, how much of the emotional world of the Violin Concerto really had to do with Windflower and how much with just Elgar's own stuff?  Of course, the challenge there is how do you separate them--the inner/the outer, the manic/the depressive, love for Windflower/Elgar's emotional state are inextricably linked.   
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on March 16, 2015, 08:07:44 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 16, 2015, 02:01:51 AM
[...] There's a characteristic mood swing that takes place whenever he finishes a major work, where he plummets into despair and seems to hate what he's just made.

I know an artist who at times has something of a similar reaction (as above modified), and that in spite of the fact that the work is of the very top notch.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on March 16, 2015, 08:35:22 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 16, 2015, 08:07:44 AMI know an artist who at times has something of a similar reaction (as above modified), and that in spite of the fact that the work is of the very top notch.
Only one?  :o
Famous artists' biographies are full of this stuff, of course. Sibelius and Brahms are obvious examples.
Of course, this feeling often plays a large role in the creation of the following work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on March 16, 2015, 08:37:22 AM
Well, that is true.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 17, 2015, 03:06:15 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 16, 2015, 07:47:40 AM
Now--why does it matter if Elgar was bipolar?  Well, only to the extent that it helps explain his character--why he vacillated between charming and boorish behavior--and, to the extent it impacted his composing, the duplicity often found in his music.  The "inner" and "outer" Elgar, in other words, might have something to do with the manic and depressive Elgar.  To provide a concrete example: if Elgar was bipolar, how much of the emotional world of the Violin Concerto really had to do with Windflower and how much with just Elgar's own stuff?  Of course, the challenge there is how do you separate them--the inner/the outer, the manic/the depressive, love for Windflower/Elgar's emotional state are inextricably linked.

I've been letting this stew quietly, wondering what I think and not being sure. I know I feel uneasy about attempting a diagnosis of a mental condition of someone who lived over a century ago, on the basis of reported behaviour (it must be hard enough making such a diagnosis of someone here and now and in the room). I think I think it doesn't matter much anyway, because I find myself asking: why would we want to separate out all these constituent strands? The music is born, not from the Windflower (as such), not from a definable mental condition, but from Elgar's inner experience, however that comes about. So the music is a symbol of something (a symbol of feeling, according to the philosopher Susanne Langer); and once created, it potentially 'contains' all these things.

I think what I'm getting at is that first, there's the music. Second, there's what happens to us when we listen to it. Third, there's how we reason about what our experience of the music has been. And (in that third mode) we can talk about Windflowers, and we can talk about bipolar, and we can talk about public and private, but the music is none of those things (though in a strange sense it may seem to 'contain' them). So if we're tempted to seek 'the answer' to the Elgar 'enigma' (you see how deeply my tongue is embedded in my cheek, here), I don't think 'bipolar' is it, any more than is his tendency to tinnitis or his fondness for chemistry.

And now, having got this far, I'm wondering whether I've actually managed to say anything at all! Its only claim to deserving your attention may be that it's what oozed out in response to your interesting post!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on March 17, 2015, 04:28:15 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 17, 2015, 03:06:15 AM
I've been letting this stew quietly, wondering what I think and not being sure. I know I feel uneasy about attempting a diagnosis of a mental condition of someone who lived over a century ago, on the basis of reported behaviour (it must be hard enough making such a diagnosis of someone here and now and in the room). I think I think it doesn't matter much anyway, because I find myself asking: why would we want to separate out all these constituent strands? The music is born, not from the Windflower (as such), not from a definable mental condition, but from Elgar's inner experience, however that comes about. So the music is a symbol of something (a symbol of feeling, according to the philosopher Susanne Langer); and once created, it potentially 'contains' all these things.

I think what I'm getting at is that first, there's the music. Second, there's what happens to us when we listen to it. Third, there's how we reason about what our experience of the music has been. And (in that third mode) we can talk about Windflowers, and we can talk about bipolar, and we can talk about public and private, but the music is none of those things (though in a strange sense it may seem to 'contain' them). So if we're tempted to seek 'the answer' to the Elgar 'enigma' (you see how deeply my tongue is embedded in my cheek, here), I don't think 'bipolar' is it, any more than is his tendency to tinnitis or his fondness for chemistry.

And now, having got this far, I'm wondering whether I've actually managed to say anything at all! [...]

However (and among other things), I think your most interesting response has, I think, underscored the probable irrelevance of the dubious back-diagnoses . . . .
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 17, 2015, 07:55:24 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 17, 2015, 03:06:15 AM
I've been letting this stew quietly, wondering what I think and not being sure. I know I feel uneasy about attempting a diagnosis of a mental condition of someone who lived over a century ago, on the basis of reported behaviour (it must be hard enough making such a diagnosis of someone here and now and in the room). I think I think it doesn't matter much anyway, because I find myself asking: why would we want to separate out all these constituent strands? The music is born, not from the Windflower (as such), not from a definable mental condition, but from Elgar's inner experience, however that comes about. So the music is a symbol of something (a symbol of feeling, according to the philosopher Susanne Langer); and once created, it potentially 'contains' all these things.

I think what I'm getting at is that first, there's the music. Second, there's what happens to us when we listen to it. Third, there's how we reason about what our experience of the music has been. And (in that third mode) we can talk about Windflowers, and we can talk about bipolar, and we can talk about public and private, but the music is none of those things (though in a strange sense it may seem to 'contain' them). So if we're tempted to seek 'the answer' to the Elgar 'enigma' (you see how deeply my tongue is embedded in my cheek, here), I don't think 'bipolar' is it, any more than is his tendency to tinnitis or his fondness for chemistry.

And now, having got this far, I'm wondering whether I've actually managed to say anything at all! Its only claim to deserving your attention may be that it's what oozed out in response to your interesting post!
Quote from: karlhenning on March 17, 2015, 04:28:15 AM
However (and among other things), I think your most interesting response has, I think, underscored the probable irrelevance of the dubious back-diagnoses . . . .

"Dubious" I'm willing to accept..."irrelevance," well, hear me out...

It is, of course, a treacherous proposition to speculate--and that's all I'm doing..speculating--about the mental or emotional dynamics at work in any artist, and especially one who lived a century ago.  I also am very well aware of the special challenges that arise if the dynamic (re: condition) in question is bipolar disorder.  I have up-close-and-personal experience with bipolar disorder in my own family, so I know how tricky diagnosis can be even if you have the person in front of you (as opposed to one hundred years behind you).  And I also want to be quick to point out that I'm new to Elgar and his music, so anything I say is based on admittedly limited experience. 

That said, in earlier installments of this particular conversation, it was agreed that in Elgar's case, perhaps more so than in the case of some other composers, you separate Elgar the man from Elgar's music at your peril.  To understand one you have to understand the other.  Of course you can relate to his music knowing little or nothing about him, but relating to it more fully really does require you know something of both his inner and outer life.  It was also agreed that there's more to a life than facts--connaitre you said, Alan, as opposed to savoir.  To the extent any of this is true, the possibility that Elgar was bipolar (or schizophrenic or ADHD or any other mental/emotional condition) is relevant because it impacts both the inner and the outer man, significantly so in the case of bipolar disorder where, undiagnosed and/or untreated, it impacts every area of life and the lives of those around you.

I don't have much patience with retroactive psychoanalytic biography.  It too often becomes like the old saying, give a boy a hammer and everything starts to look like a nail: suddenly, people are finding underlying psychoses everywhere they look.  But, to me, that doesn't mean we should dismiss the potential impact of a composer's emotional/mental state on his/her music because a) we're removed from them in time and space, and b) can't ourselves make a clinical diagnosis. I'm not saying Elgar was bipolar. I'm merely suggesting that what we know of his behavior could be explained by bipolar disorder.  And the reason I think such speculation, dubious though it may be, is nonetheless relevant is because it potentially casts in a rather different light the inner man--and, to the extent it is a reflection of the inner man, his music.

Short of unearthing a doctor's report that Elgar was diagnosed manic depressive, nothing even approaching definitive can come of such speculation.  But if, in the process of speculating, different possibilities for relating to his music arise, I find that intriguing. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on March 17, 2015, 08:41:06 AM
All right.  But what is speculative, we ought to be able to separate from the music without peril, yes?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 17, 2015, 09:14:39 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 17, 2015, 08:41:06 AM
All right.  But what is speculative, we ought to be able to separate from the music without peril, yes?

Yes--agreed.  Although we might lose something in the process.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 17, 2015, 01:40:08 PM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 17, 2015, 07:55:24 AM
I'm not saying Elgar was bipolar. I'm merely suggesting that what we know of his behavior could be explained by bipolar disorder.  And the reason I think such speculation, dubious though it may be, is nonetheless relevant is because it potentially casts in a rather different light the inner man--and, to the extent it is a reflection of the inner man, his music.

I'm still not at all sure how I feel about this. I acknowledge all that you say, and if we're examining the Elgar biography (as we are) then I can see it's worth discussing. And I can see that I've painted myself into a corner already by saying that I find it hard if not impossible to separate the man from the music.

And yet ... and yet ... I still find myself wondering if it matters whether we can identify the mental condition as a known disorder. Now that may be because I myself have no proper understanding of the nature of the disorder - I recognise that. But ultimately, I want to say that if he feels what he feels, and expresses that through his music, then it doesn't sound 'manic' (forgive the word, I'm aware of its impropriety) to me. It never does. There are extremes of emotion, yes - but on the whole they seem comparable with those I experience myself, I think. Of course as I write this, I'm aware that this is not an argument, but just a feeling.

Undeniably Elgar the man had some very odd behavioural traits, and I can see there's a bipolar-ish aspect to some of them, but I'm still reluctant to go further than that, really - that is, beyond acknowledging the possibility but being unsure if it matters one way or the other.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 17, 2015, 02:37:14 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 17, 2015, 01:40:08 PM
I'm still not at all sure how I feel about this. I acknowledge all that you say, and if we're examining the Elgar biography (as we are) then I can see it's worth discussing. And I can see that I've painted myself into a corner already by saying that I find it hard if not impossible to separate the man from the music.

And yet ... and yet ... I still find myself wondering if it matters whether we can identify the mental condition as a known disorder. Now that may be because I myself have no proper understanding of the nature of the disorder - I recognise that. But ultimately, I want to say that if he feels what he feels, and expresses that through his music, then it doesn't sound 'manic' (forgive the word, I'm aware of its impropriety) to me. It never does. There are extremes of emotion, yes - but on the whole they seem comparable with those I experience myself, I think. Of course as I write this, I'm aware that this is not an argument, but just a feeling.

Undeniably Elgar the man had some very odd behavioural traits, and I can see there's a bipolar-ish aspect to some of them, but I'm still reluctant to go further than that, really - that is, beyond acknowledging the possibility but being unsure if it matters one way or the other.

Of course.  We don't have to reach consensus on this.  The fact we all approach music from our own experiences and with our own expectations is what makes forums like this, at their best, so enjoyable.  Enjoyable, too, is knowing that one can raise questions...think out loud, as it were...and feel reasonably safe doing so, that others will at least consider the question with you rather than dismiss it (and you) as, well, silly.  That is, I think, how understanding grows.

On to other ideas...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 18, 2015, 01:55:44 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 17, 2015, 02:37:14 PM
Of course.  We don't have to reach consensus on this.  The fact we all approach music from our own experiences and with our own expectations is what makes forums like this, at their best, so enjoyable.  Enjoyable, too, is knowing that one can raise questions...think out loud, as it were...and feel reasonably safe doing so, that others will at least consider the question with you rather than dismiss it (and you) as, well, silly.  That is, I think, how understanding grows.

Yes! The freedom to float ideas and kick them about without some implicit competitive element being involved is crucial, and yet not that easy to find, actually.

I've been thinking (in relation to what we've been discussing) about a very strange incident that Dorabella relates. She was staying with the Elgars at a time when Elgar was in full composing mode, but was 'stuck' in some way, and she describes how they were sitting at a table, when he hit her hand (hard) and jumped up and left the room. See what you make of it when you read it. Very odd behaviour. At the very least, it seems to signify such an intense focus on his predicament that he was completely unaware of the impact he might have on others present.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 18, 2015, 02:07:23 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 17, 2015, 02:51:39 PM
If Elgarian is in the Elgar thread it may create the impression that good times at GMG have returned again.

I have made a conscious decision not to pay attention to the personal attributes of composers or musicians. The music of Elgar (including his nobilmente style, the masculine/feminine dichotomy or other elements of his music) are beautiful and may resonate with my own personal feelings and experiences. This is sufficient. What relationship Elgar's music has to his own character is impossible to know and in any case not relevant to me. If, for the sake of argument, someone told me that Elgar's music was written during a psychotic episode, or was inspired by a heinous genocidal conspiracy, it wouldn't matter a whit to me.

Elgar had a brilliant musical imagination. As far as I know, that is his only remarkable attribute. Take that away and I don't suppose there is much to distinguish him from the bloke that lived in the next cottage.

Hello Scarps. Good to see you here again.

I think that's a perfectly reasonable position to take - set the man aside and listen to his music. I do it myself with regard to other composers (I love Handel's music for example, but just can't get very interested in the man himself).

In the case of Elgar, I think there are aspects of his character that I believe I'd have very much enoyed, if I'd known him, and perhaps that makes the difference. In playing the game of 'Which 5 historical characters would you invite to dinner?', Elgar would always be on my list, regardless of how the others might change.

Which suddenly makes me wonder about a slightly different game of inviting 5 Elgar-flavoured characters to dinner: how about Elgar, Dora Penny, Rosa Burley, Billy Reed, and Alice Stuart Wortley? I bet that would be lively!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hiker on March 20, 2015, 11:43:01 AM
A preview of the April edition of BBC Music Magazine mentions one article that might cause Elgarian and others to don their clips: "Elgar and his bike - Rick Jones dresses up and reconstructs the English composer's journey from Great Malvern to Wolverhampton Wanderers Football Club."

I think there might also be an article about Elgar's correspondence, as well as the cover CD featuring his Sea Songs.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on March 24, 2015, 11:57:15 AM
I've been enjoying the latest discussions here, thank you gentleman!

I now have 18 recordings of the 1st Symphony, I'm so fascinated by the different interpretations, it is such a joy. Aces!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 24, 2015, 12:52:18 PM
Tasmin Little / Andrew Davies disc arrived today. I listened to it once. "Spacious" sound. It's like there's 10 meters distance between the players. Somehow I failed to pay attention to Tasmin Little's playing, but since I didn't notice any problems I suppose it must be good. Second listening will show that. The performance is calm rather than energic. Orchestral balance is good.

I listened with headphones. Multichannel SACD layer downmixed by my Blu-ray player to Lt/Rt stereo and then crossfeeded at strong level -1 dB for headphones.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 26, 2015, 04:03:40 AM
The EMI collection of all Elgar's electrical recordings arrived from the UK yesterday. I'm looking forward to hearing how The Man himself interpreted his own music (I have Moore's Elgar on Record in hand).

I also finished reading Dora Powell's book on Elgar and found it, well, fawning and, in her apparent willingness to accept everything about Elgar at face value, naive. The best part of the book for me was the last chapter where she described (and provided pictures of) each of the subjects of the Enigma Variations. I'm now reading W. H. Reed's Elgar As I Knew Him and finding it a good deal more insightful.  In light of our earlier exchanges about the possibility of Elgar being bipolar, I can't resist pointing out that both Powell and Reed write of Elgar's drastic "mood swings."  ::)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 27, 2015, 02:13:26 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 26, 2015, 04:03:40 AM
I also finished reading Dora Powell's book on Elgar and found it, well, fawning and, in her apparent willingness to accept everything about Elgar at face value, naive.

I can see exactly why you'd think that, but where you see 'naive' and 'fawning', I see  'charming' and 'overawed'. I can't imagine how it must have felt to an impressionable young woman to have a 'Variation' dedicated to her, written by someone so very much larger than life as Elgar - but Dora tries to tell us. Now it might just be a matter of temperament as to how one reads her book, but all those little incidents and anecdotes that she relates build up a picture of what it was like being around him, and we simply don't get that from anywhere else. I suppose what I'm suggesting is that you don't need to enjoy her personality, or the style/manner of her book, to get the real Elgarian gold that can be found glittering among its pages.

When you read Rosa Burley, you'll get the direct opposite: someone who obviously found Elgar fascinating, but also often found his ways annoying - so much so that there are times when one realises that she's working off a chip or two that remains on her shoulder. With Billy Reed you're getting the - different again - experience of a professional musician. My point is that if you take just one of those books you get a very incomplete picture, but when you've read all three, a kind of 'real' Elgar, full of contradictions, and irascibility, and flirtatiousness, and insecurity, and deep sensitivity, starts to emerge.

QuoteIn light of our earlier exchanges about the possibility of Elgar being bipolar, I can't resist pointing out that both Powell and Reed write of Elgar's drastic "mood swings."  ::)

Just to clarify - I wasn't denying that the mood swings are a well-known aspect of his character. My reservation isn't about whether he had them, but about whether we can diagnose the underlying cause of them.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on March 27, 2015, 02:18:28 AM
Just so.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 27, 2015, 02:58:28 AM
Just back from a couple of days wandering around the Malvern area, and thought I'd post a few photos - first, these from the British Camp (of Caractacus legend) at the top of the Herefordshire Beacon.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1040861_zps0kqrdr86.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1040885_zpslulogafv.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1040843_zpscyoibxf8.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1040858_zpsy11qituh.jpg)

"Are the trees singing my music, or am I singing theirs?"
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on March 27, 2015, 03:01:30 AM
And a couple of the great man himself enjoying the spring sunshine in the garden of the birthplace cottage.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1040900_zpsxvdyksmo.jpg)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1040905_zpsubtvmofy.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on March 27, 2015, 10:03:44 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 13, 2015, 06:10:01 PM
Yes, it does seem that Boult had an affinity for Symphony No. 2. I just bought a set containing the 1956 Nixa-Westminster performance, so hopefully I can share my thoughts of this one soon. I know Andre can tell us a bit more about it. I seem to recall from the 'Listening' thread that he enjoyed the performance.
Hey John!
How was the 1956 Nixa-Westminster performance of the 2nd symphony? Actually, how was that Boult set (Nixa Vol 1? ) overall?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on March 27, 2015, 10:06:35 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 27, 2015, 02:58:28 AM
Just back from a couple of days wandering around the Malvern area, and thought I'd post a few photos - first, these from the British Camp (of Caractacus legend) at the top of the Herefordshire Beacon.


"Are the trees singing my music, or am I singing theirs?"

Beautiful landscapes Elgarian!  My mind can so easily get lost in all the shades and incantations of green as well as within the dance of shadows on the hillsides. Wonderful and inspirational photos. Thanks for posting them!  I feel the urge of listening now....    ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on March 28, 2015, 07:41:14 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 27, 2015, 10:03:44 AM
Hey John!
How was the 1956 Nixa-Westminster performance of the 2nd symphony? Actually, how was that Boult set (Nixa Vol 1? ) overall?

The whole set was actually quite good (esp. good Walton 1st and Britten Four Interludes), but I wouldn't say this performance of the 2nd is any better than the Lyrita or EMI versions. They're all strong, but, overall, I believe I prefer the EMI performance above the other two.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 28, 2015, 09:11:16 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 27, 2015, 02:13:26 AM
I can see exactly why you'd think that, but where you see 'naive' and 'fawning', I see  'charming' and 'overawed'. I can't imagine how it must have felt to an impressionable young woman to have a 'Variation' dedicated to her, written by someone so very much larger than life as Elgar - but Dora tries to tell us. Now it might just be a matter of temperament as to how one reads her book, but all those little incidents and anecdotes that she relates build up a picture of what it was like being around him, and we simply don't get that from anywhere else. I suppose what I'm suggesting is that you don't need to enjoy her personality, or the style/manner of her book, to get the real Elgarian gold that can be found glittering among its pages.

It could, of course, entirely be me but you're correct--I think the manner of her book did get in the way of me finding much in the way of Elgarian gold in her narrative.  I'm half-way through Reed's Elgar As I Knew Him and finding it much more insightful...more of the "gold" of which you speak.  And I suspect that's due, at least in part, to the fact that I'm responding much more positively to Reed's more even-handed tone.  Clearly he loved and had great respect for Elgar the composer and Elgar the man, but that didn't prevent him from seeing--or, at least, from writing about--Elgar's humanity with its foibles as well as its attributes.  I'm looking forward to reading Burley's book but it's the one of those you recommended I've yet to order because it ended up being the most expensive.  I'll be ordering it from the UK next week.  In the meantime, once Reed is finished, I'm moving on to Elgar in Love by Kevin Allen.  Looming on the horizon, of course, is Jerrold Northrop Moore's Elgar: A Creative Life.  And, through it all, now that the EMI set of all the electrical recordings has arrived, I'm about to start listening, with Moore's Elgar on Record in hand.  I must say, Alan, that you've given me quite the passion for Elgar, not just to know his music but to know him!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 28, 2015, 09:13:49 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on March 27, 2015, 03:01:30 AM
And a couple of the great man himself enjoying the spring sunshine in the garden of the birthplace cottage.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1040900_zpsxvdyksmo.jpg)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1040905_zpsubtvmofy.jpg)

Thank you so much, Alan, for these and all the other photos you posted.  Several thousand miles away, it helps to better picture (and understand) the man and his music to see the places he actually lived and worked.  I, for one, would be interested in any others you may have and are willing to share.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 28, 2015, 10:19:55 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 24, 2015, 12:52:18 PM
Tasmin Little / Andrew Davies disc arrived today. I listened to it once. "Spacious" sound. It's like there's 10 meters distance between the players. Somehow I failed to pay attention to Tasmin Little's playing, but since I didn't notice any problems I suppose it must be good. Second listening will show that. The performance is calm rather than energic. Orchestral balance is good.

I listened with headphones. Multichannel SACD layer downmixed by my Blu-ray player to Lt/Rt stereo and then crossfeeded at strong level -1 dB for headphones.

Second listen. I discovered that lower crossfeed level works better. This is surprising with this kind of orchestral multichannel SACD downmixed to Lt/Rt stereo. Tasmin Little's playing is soft and silky. I think I prefer more aggressive and energetic playing, but this is nevertheless a very good performance with great sound quality.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on March 28, 2015, 11:26:23 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 28, 2015, 07:41:14 AM
The whole set was actually quite good (esp. good Walton 1st and Britten Four Interludes), but I wouldn't say this performance of the 2nd is any better than the Lyrita or EMI versions. They're all strong, but, overall, I believe I prefer the EMI performance above the other two.

Thanks John!  :)   Good to know!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on March 28, 2015, 11:50:00 AM
I've been enjoying Elgar's Suites, In particular James Judd's account of the The Wand of Youth, a deeply moving account that touches my soul. Today I find Groves' account of the Nursery Suite quite exciting and epic with beautiful instances of beauty and rapture. Aces!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 28, 2015, 12:25:14 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on March 28, 2015, 11:50:00 AM
I've been enjoying Elgar's Suites, In particular James Judd's account of the The Wand of Youth, a deeply moving account that touches my soul. Today I find Groves' account of the Nursery Suite quite exciting and epic with beautiful instances of beauty and rapture. Aces!

Yes, these suites are most lovely music. I have these performances:

The Wand of Youth:

Ulster Orchestra / Bryden Thomson / Chandos CHAN 8318
Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra / Vernon Handley / EMI
New Zealand Symphony Orchestra / James Judd / Naxos 8.557166

Nursery Suite:

Ulster Orchestra / Bryden Thomson / Chandos CHAN 8318
Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra / Sir Charles Groves / EMI
English Chamber Orchestra / Paul Goodwin / HMU 907258
New Zealand Symphony Orchestra / James Judd / Naxos 8.557166

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on March 31, 2015, 09:48:16 AM
I've begun working my way through the Complete Electrical Recordings. Normally, when I start listening to a multi-disc set like this, I'd start with Disc 1 which, in this case, would've meant the Symphony No. 1 and Falstaff. But, instead, I started with Disc 2--Symphony No. 2.  I mention this because, at the moment at least, I think this is my favorite piece by Elgar...it really is glorious music!  I know it through Barbirolli's EMI recording with the Halle Orchestra because I quickly discovered I really responded to Barbirolli's way with Elgar...more so than, say, Boult's.  So, obviously, my experience with multiple interpretations of the piece is limited.  That said, my reaction to Elgar's own recording has been interesting (to me, anyway), by which I mean that my understanding of Elgar's interpretations of his own music is that they were, in terms of tempo, pretty consistently fast.  So much so, in fact, that others have questioned whether or not Elgar's tempos were really how he intended the music to be played or dictated by the realities of 78 rpm recordings.  In any case, here are the timings of Elgar and Barbirolli:

                         Elgar                 Barbirolli
mvmt 1             14:36                 19:25
mvmt 2             12:57                 13:51
mvmt 3               7:50                   8:20
mvmt 4             12:21                 14:21
Total                 47:44                 55:57

The difference is substantial.  But, to my ears, at no point does Elgar's own interpretation sound overly fast, let alone rushed, vis-a-vis Barbirolli's, even in the first movement where Elgar dispatches the movement four minutes faster than Barbirolli.  Partly, I suspect, this is a function of the subjective experience of time.  And partly it's a function of the integrity of the interpretation: experienced as a whole, Elgar's traversal is as--how to describe this?--communicative as Barbirolli's.  If more detail in the inner voices in the orchestration is evident in Barbirolli, that's likely more a function of technology than tempo even if the quality of the 1927 electrical recording is astonishingly good (helped, no doubt, by remastering).  So often composers are not the best conductors of their own work, but once you get past the thrill of knowing this is Elgar conducting and he clearly was a good conductor, it's easy to respond to the performance as a performance, even if, as in this case, it's faster than what you've hitherto known and appreciated.

A final comment.  The closing pages of the symphony, where the music slows and softens... Listening to Elgar sent me back to listen again to Barbirolli... I was struck, as I'd not been before, by a parallel with the ending of Vaughan William's Fifth...not just that both works slow and soften but that, somehow, there is an emotional (spiritual?) kinship between them...I'm not suggesting it was intentional on Vaughan Williams' part, just that it's one of those special moments you sometimes find in music where two compositions separated by time and space somehow seem to breathe the same air.   

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on March 31, 2015, 05:49:45 PM
Elgar: Enigma Variations        London SO/Colin Davis      (1965)

I really like this version! A performance one grows into with its richness! I had not listened too much to the Enigma Variations before this year, but with each exposure I grow fonder of this work. I have not spent any time reading about the background of the "enigma" nor the associations to the different variations. However, the work does not need its "history" to stand on its own feet. Like many other works by Elgar I find the intrinsic complexity and the reoccurring theme to build a very attractive soundscape. It is becoming (and growing into) an individual in my ears with its own complex psyche (if that makes any sense at all?).  Davis and the LSO forces definitely bring luminescence to the Variations in this recording!

PS! I love the photograph on the cover!

(http://cdn.discogs.com/Cp-p7MVPNS1GJUskHZoDZi63COY=/fit-in/600x577/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-2699621-1297117119.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 01, 2015, 01:34:23 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 31, 2015, 09:48:16 AM
my reaction to Elgar's own recording has been interesting (to me, anyway), by which I mean that my understanding of Elgar's interpretations of his own music is that they were, in terms of tempo, pretty consistently fast.  So much so, in fact, that others have questioned whether or not Elgar's tempos were really how he intended the music to be played or dictated by the realities of 78 rpm recordings.  In any case, here are the timings of Elgar and Barbirolli:

                         Elgar                 Barbirolli
mvmt 1             14:36                 19:25
mvmt 2             12:57                 13:51
mvmt 3               7:50                   8:20
mvmt 4             12:21                 14:21
Total                 47:44                 55:57

The difference is substantial.  But, to my ears, at no point does Elgar's own interpretation sound overly fast, let alone rushed, vis-a-vis Barbirolli's, even in the first movement where Elgar dispatches the movement four minutes faster than Barbirolli.  Partly, I suspect, this is a function of the subjective experience of time.  And partly it's a function of the integrity of the interpretation: experienced as a whole, Elgar's traversal is as--how to describe this?--communicative as Barbirolli's.  If more detail in the inner voices in the orchestration is evident in Barbirolli, that's likely more a function of technology than tempo even if the quality of the 1927 electrical recording is astonishingly good (helped, no doubt, by remastering).  So often composers are not the best conductors of their own work, but once you get past the thrill of knowing this is Elgar conducting and he clearly was a good conductor, it's easy to respond to the performance as a performance, even if, as in this case, it's faster than what you've hitherto known and appreciated.

Yes, I find the speed of Elgar's recordings can still come as quite a shock when I haven't listened to them for a while. I remember reading somewhere (but frustratingly I can't remember where) a very persuasive discussion - and ultimate rejection - of the idea that Elgar's hectic pace was driven by the need to fit the music onto 78 rpm sides (which you mention in your post). The rejection of that idea makes sense to me. I can understand him editing the music due to technical contraints (as he did, for instance, with the early and purely acoustic recording of the Violin Concerto with Marie Hall), but the idea of him charging through it at breakneck speed to make it fit 78rpm sides just doesn't seem like something Elgar would be willing to do. So like you, I approach them on the understanding that this is how he intended them to be. He was, after all, enchanted with the whole process of recording, and believed that it opened an entirely new way of listening to music. Even so,  those comparisons with Barbirolli that you make do make you blink a bit, don't they?!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 01, 2015, 01:46:10 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 31, 2015, 05:49:45 PM
Elgar: Enigma Variations        London SO/Colin Davis      (1965)

I really like this version! A performance one grows into with its richness! I had not listened too much to the Enigma Variations before this year, but with each exposure I grow fonder of this work. I have not spent any time reading about the background of the "enigma" nor the associations to the different variations. However, the work does not need its "history" to stand on its own feet. Like many other works by Elgar I find the intrinsic complexity and the reoccurring theme to build a very attractive soundscape. It is becoming (and growing into) an individual in my ears with its own complex psyche (if that makes any sense at all?).  Davis and the LSO forces definitely bring luminescence to the Variations in this recording!

PS! I love the photograph on the cover!

(http://cdn.discogs.com/Cp-p7MVPNS1GJUskHZoDZi63COY=/fit-in/600x577/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-2699621-1297117119.jpeg.jpg)

Reading your post reminded me of my discovery a few years ago of Monteux's 1959 Enigma which, after a lifetime of listening to lots of Enigmas, blew my head off - see here:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg666345.html#msg666345 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg666345.html#msg666345)

Incidentally, I am much like you in finding all the business of trying to 'solve' the 'puzzle' not particularly interesting or relevant. On the other hand I do find it enriches the listening experience to know a bit about the various friends 'pictured within'.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 03, 2015, 01:36:32 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on March 28, 2015, 09:13:49 AM
Several thousand miles away, it helps to better picture (and understand) the man and his music to see the places he actually lived and worked.  I, for one, would be interested in any others you may have and are willing to share.

I've been looking through my Elgar/Malvern photos gathered over the years and have pulled a few out to post here. I hope I haven't posted these before, but there may be the odd repetition among them. These were taken during various walks among the Malvern Hills on paths that Elgar would certainly have walked. The changes in light are very striking, and the landscape is constantly shifting its mood - so one is tempted to go on and on taking photographs as the cloud patterns change.

Two shots of the British Camp, on the Herefordshire Beacon:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1010078_zps9knysngk.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1010080_zpskrfbey7m.jpg)


A very typical example of the far distant views one gets from the hills:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1010026_zpspbkjzsgq.jpg)


From south of the British Camp, looking north to the main range of hills:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/P1010068_zpstlge6lon.jpg)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 03, 2015, 02:04:40 AM
A shift of location, now, to the area around the Worcester Beacon in the northern part of the range.

Approaching the top of the Worcester Beacon, from the west:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/P1010102_zpsjhixbzhz.jpg)


The Worcester Beacon (I don't know who the people were):

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/P1010114_zps43pn4inl.jpg)


Looking south from the Worcester Beacon towards the British Camp.
You can see the ringed ridges of the Camp around the Herefordshire Beacon in the far distance:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/TopofWorcesterBeacon.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on April 03, 2015, 07:28:00 AM
I'm continuing my traversal of the EMI set of Elgar's electrical recordings, going back to disc 1 which contains the First Symphony and Falstaff.

My reaction to Elgar's performance of his First is very different from my reaction to his Second--it isn't working for me. Initially I thought it might be the recording quality itself which, to my ears, is nowhere near as good as that for the Second (although the Second was actually recorded three years earlier--1927--than the First...also, too, in a different location, Queen's Hall as opposed to Kingsway). I considered, too, that it might be the music itself--at this point, at any rate, I just happen to prefer the Second to the First. But then I compared Elgar's recording movement-to-movement with Barbirolli's and I knew immediately it was neither a function of recording or music but of Elgar's interpretation. Partly, I think, it's tempo. Elgar is consistently faster than Barbirolli (four minutes so in the first movement alone). But whereas Elgar's faster tempos in the Second didn't bother me, here they do. Barbirolli allows the music to breathe in ways Elgar doesn't, which really pays off in the slow movement where there is a poignancy and tenderness with Barbirolli simply not there with Elgar. Indeed, Elgar sounds entirely too buttoned-up, almost as if he's afraid to really let the gorgeous melodies he's written sing for fear they'll sound maudlin (they don't). I'm not convinced this is entirely a matter of interpretation, either. I was much more aware in this performance of the difference in Elgar's abilities as a conductor vis-a-vis Barbirolli. Throughout, Barbirolli is much more adroit at shaping and moulding phrases. He also negotiates the rather treacherous rhythms when the opening theme returns in the finale much better than does Elgar: in Barbirolli's hands, it sings triumphantly; in Elgar's it sounds disjointed and out-of-sync. It also needs to be said that Barbirolli's Philharmonia just plays better than Elgar's LSO.

Falstaff continues, for me, to be a tough nut to crack. I was hoping that listening to Elgar himself conduct it would help me get inside the music...but no. I need to continue to listen, though, and give this piece a chance. 

I feel incredibly presumptuous criticizing Elgar's performances... Who am I to be judging him and daring suggest how his music should go? Still, that's part of the dynamic, isn't it, and the mark of truly great music that it doesn't just work when performed one way, even if that one way happens to be the composer's!   
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on April 03, 2015, 07:31:35 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 01, 2015, 01:46:10 AM
Incidentally, I am much like you in finding all the business of trying to 'solve' the 'puzzle' not particularly interesting or relevant. On the other hand I do find it enriches the listening experience to know a bit about the various friends 'pictured within'.

Indeed. Learning "a bit about the various friends 'pictured within'" was, for me, the great gift of Dora Powell's book. Having read her description (and seen the photos) of those depicted has opened new areas in my understanding (and enjoyment) of the Variations.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: revdrdave on April 03, 2015, 07:33:44 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 03, 2015, 02:04:40 AM
A shift of location, now, to the area around the Worcester Beacon in the northern part of the range.

Approaching the top of the Worcester Beacon, from the west:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/P1010102_zpsjhixbzhz.jpg)


The Worcester Beacon (I don't know who the people were):

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/P1010114_zps43pn4inl.jpg)


Looking south from the Worcester Beacon towards the British Camp.
You can see the ringed ridges of the Camp around the Herefordshire Beacon in the far distance:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/TopofWorcesterBeacon.jpg)

These are really glorious, Alan--thank you so much for taking the time to post them! Do you have any sense how much the landscape has changed since Elgar's time?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 03, 2015, 07:40:23 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 03, 2015, 02:04:40 AM
A shift of location, now, to the area around the Worcester Beacon in the northern part of the range.

Approaching the top of the Worcester Beacon, from the west:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/landscapes/P1010102_zpsjhixbzhz.jpg)

Magnificent shot. This belongs in the Photography thread.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 03, 2015, 12:05:38 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 03, 2015, 07:40:23 AM
Magnificent shot. This belongs in the Photography thread.

Sarge

I didn't know there WAS a photography thread, Sarge! Glad you like it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 03, 2015, 12:23:10 PM
Quote from: revdrdave on April 03, 2015, 07:28:00 AM

Falstaff continues, for me, to be a tough nut to crack. I was hoping that listening to Elgar himself conduct it would help me get inside the music...but no. I need to continue to listen, though, and give this piece a chance.

In all these years, I've never cracked it myself. I know of its reputation, and I'm quite sure that the problem lies in some kind of musical deafness on my part, but I just can't stay interested in it, somehow. Perhaps it's because I'm not very interested in Falstaff, either? Just can't say.

Quote
I feel incredibly presumptuous criticizing Elgar's performances... Who am I to be judging him and daring suggest how his music should go? Still, that's part of the dynamic, isn't it, and the mark of truly great music that it doesn't just work when performed one way, even if that one way happens to be the composer's!

I'm sure he and the orchestra had their off days. On the whole, though, I feel increasingly reluctant to criticise performances that (for whatever reason) I don't feel quite hit the mark. Usually I think it's not necessarily because of a defect in the performance, but more likely a problem created by some particular expectation of my own which is not being met. For example: I noticed recently in the 'Planets' thread that great praise has been heaped upon Dutoit's recording - one of the very few that, a couple of years ago when I was comparing recordings, seemed to fall far, far short of what I wanted. It's obvious from the comments made about it, though, that it has all sorts of qualities that I must have been oblivious or insensitive to - so any adverse judgement I might have reached about it would clearly have been more a statement about me and my preferences than about the quality of the performance. On the whole, although mostly I think I know what I like, and that my favourable perceptions are trustworthy, I don't trust my judgement when I encounter performances that I feel are lacking in some way.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 03, 2015, 12:29:24 PM
Quote from: revdrdave on April 03, 2015, 07:33:44 AM
Do you have any sense how much the landscape has changed since Elgar's time?

Well the benches wouldn't have been there, I suppose, and the paths not so well-laid (or well-worn) as they are now, and some of the restoration of the British Camp would be missing ... but basically, we're looking pretty much at the landscape Elgar saw, I think.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hiker on April 03, 2015, 01:15:14 PM
On an Overgrown Path has posted a review of a new CD (http://www.overgrownpath.com/2015/03/only-connect.html) that includes a performance of Elgar's String Quartet arranged for strings by David Matthews.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on April 03, 2015, 05:13:00 PM
Beautiful photos, Alan, thank you!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 04, 2015, 12:50:12 AM
Quote from: Hiker on April 03, 2015, 01:15:14 PM
On an Overgrown Path has posted a review of a new CD (http://www.overgrownpath.com/2015/03/only-connect.html) that includes a performance of Elgar's String Quartet arranged for strings by David Matthews.

Have you found anywhere offering audio samples? There's a sample of the Arnold at the Somm website, but nowhere does it seem possible to hear a clip or two of the Elgar.

Not sure what I think about the enterprise really. If Elgar had wanted more instruments, wouldn't he have written something other than a quartet? On the other hand, I admit to being curious!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on April 04, 2015, 12:52:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 03, 2015, 05:13:00 PM
Beautiful photos, Alan, thank you!

Time to be upfront. My technique is to take 1 million photos at random and then spend ten years selecting half a dozen.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Hiker on April 04, 2015, 02:54:08 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on April 04, 2015, 12:50:12 AM
Have you found anywhere offering audio samples? There's a sample of the Arnold at the Somm website, but nowhere does it seem possible to hear a clip or two of the Elgar.

Not sure what I think about the enterprise really. If Elgar had wanted more instruments, wouldn't he have written something other than a quartet? On the other hand, I admit to being curious!

I've drawn a blank on Spotify, YouTube, Presto Classical and elsewhere. Perhaps this is a subtle advertising ploy to pique our curiosity...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on April 04, 2015, 12:57:33 PM
Elgar:
Violin Sonata                Bean/Parkhouse
Violin Concerto            Bean/Royal Liverpool PO/Groves



I am very fond of the last two movements of the sonata. The first movement is a bit jarring in my ears although real life tends to be in that realm at times (a good reminder). This is indeed a lovely rendition of the concerto as Bean plays with both brilliance and passion. I still tend to gravitate towards Hahn's performance for some reason!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81eFZrro6cL._SL1391_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oiS5FA5hL.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on April 04, 2015, 03:24:54 PM
Beautiful shots, magnificent landscapes. Rural Britain is still the most beautiful place in the Northern Hemisphere.

Re: Falstaff: have loved it ever since the mid-seventies when I purchased the Boult LPO lp (cum Sanguine Fan, EMI). I love the rambunctiousness and avuncular gait of the initial theme. It all derives from there. Falstaff's debonair and effronté character are perfectly captured. From there on, it's a matter of Elgar the Variationer picturing the episodes à la Don Quixote with his inimitable flair.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on April 05, 2015, 06:35:56 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on April 04, 2015, 12:57:33 PM
Elgar:
Violin Sonata                Bean/Parkhouse
Violin Concerto            Bean/Royal Liverpool PO/Groves



I am very fond of the last two movements of the sonata. The first movement is a bit jarring in my ears although real life tends to be in that realm at times (a good reminder). This is indeed a lovely rendition of the concerto as Bean plays with both brilliance and passion. I still tend to gravitate towards Hahn's performance for some reason!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81eFZrro6cL._SL1391_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oiS5FA5hL.jpg)

But have you heard Tasmin Little's performance yet of the Violin Concerto? That's the million dollar question. I like Hahn's performance, but I can't listen to that recording thanks in large part to Sir Grunts-a-lot. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on April 05, 2015, 12:41:00 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 05, 2015, 06:35:56 AM
But have you heard Tasmin Little's performance yet of the Violin Concerto? That's the million dollar question. I like Hahn's performance, but I can't listen to that recording thanks in large part to Sir Grunts-a-lot. :)

Nope! I haven't heard Little's performance yet. :-[   So many performances to listen to....  0:)
I like how Hahn is playing as well, but the orchestral support could have been better. Regardless, sometimes (not always) I am able to filter out the surroundings and just focus on the solo part.  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on April 05, 2015, 02:23:20 PM
.(https://jaunetoujours.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/schermafbeelding-2014-05-13-om-15-00-10.png)

BBC 3's "Building a Library" recently [March 28, 2015] did an entry on Elgar's Symphony No 2.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05ns69z (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05ns69z)

Interestingly, Richard Morrison picked Barenboim's performance with the Staatskapelle Berlin  ??? . I have never heard this recording! Any comments on Morrison's choice?

Reviews in the Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/may/21/elgar-second-symphony-barenboim-staatskapelle-berlin-review) and the BBC Music Magazine (http://www.classical-music.com/review/elgar-symphony-no-2).

[asin] B00ITUVDZ4[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71mveKGA7ML._SL1219_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on April 05, 2015, 08:31:37 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on April 05, 2015, 02:23:20 PM
.(https://jaunetoujours.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/schermafbeelding-2014-05-13-om-15-00-10.png)

BBC 3's "Building a Library" recently [March 28, 2015] did an entry on Elgar's Symphony No 2.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05ns69z (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05ns69z)

Interestingly, Richard Morrison picked Barenboim's performance with the Staatskapelle Berlin  ??? . I have never heard this recording! Any comments on Morrison's choice?

Reviews in the Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/may/21/elgar-second-symphony-barenboim-staatskapelle-berlin-review) and the BBC Music Magazine (http://www.classical-music.com/review/elgar-symphony-no-2).

[asin] B00ITUVDZ4[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71mveKGA7ML._SL1219_.jpg)

I find the performance to be absolutely dreadful. I made some remarks about the recording many pages back (too lazy to hunt it tonight). I would avoid this one. My general problem with it is just the total lack of conviction I felt. There just seems to be some kind of disconnect between Barenboim and the Staatskapelle. Of course, there's the high probability that it's my own ears, but this one's a dud IMHO.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 06, 2015, 03:58:49 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on April 05, 2015, 02:23:20 PM
Interestingly, Richard Morrison picked Barenboim's performance with the Staatskapelle Berlin  ???
Reviews in the Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/may/21/elgar-second-symphony-barenboim-staatskapelle-berlin-review) and the BBC Music Magazine (http://www.classical-music.com/review/elgar-symphony-no-2).

Interesting: the Brits love it. Not so the Amis (MI and the Hurwitzer):

http://www.classicstoday.com/review/barenboims-weird-elgar-2/?search=1


Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on April 06, 2015, 11:23:01 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 06, 2015, 03:58:49 AM
Interesting: the Brits love it. Not so the Amis (MI and the Hurwitzer):

http://www.classicstoday.com/review/barenboims-weird-elgar-2/?search=1


Sarge
Indeed, Hurwitz certainly slices up the performance......   >:D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on April 06, 2015, 12:31:06 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on April 05, 2015, 02:23:20 PM
.(https://jaunetoujours.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/schermafbeelding-2014-05-13-om-15-00-10.png)

BBC 3's "Building a Library" recently [March 28, 2015] did an entry on Elgar's Symphony No 2.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05ns69z (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05ns69z)

Interestingly, Richard Morrison picked Barenboim's performance with the Staatskapelle Berlin  ??? . I have never heard this recording! Any comments on Morrison's choice?

Reviews in the Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/may/21/elgar-second-symphony-barenboim-staatskapelle-berlin-review) and the BBC Music Magazine (http://www.classical-music.com/review/elgar-symphony-no-2).

[asin] B00ITUVDZ4[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71mveKGA7ML._SL1219_.jpg)

This is my favorite modern recording of the No.2. The phrasing, the dynamics, and the tempo sound fresh and vital. I believe it is a great performance. Aces!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 04, 2015, 01:14:16 AM
I just had a weekend in Malvern, for the Elgar birthday concert on Saturday evening. The idea was to have a walk in the hills in the afternoon in preparation for the concert, and as things turned out, the sun shone, and the temperature was just right for walking, and it was a perfect afternoon.

Now there's this funny thing that happens when I walk there. Every so often I stop, and look at the landscape stretching out further and further to the horizon, and think, almost in disbelief, 'I'm here. I'm here.' Doesn't matter how many times I've done it - still it happens. It goes all the way back to when I was 16 and bought my second-ever LP - The Enigma Variations, conducted by Sir Malcolm Sargent. I'd saved up for it (LPs were expensive) and it was a Great Treasure. I used to listen to it on the radiogram we'd been given by my grandparents, and I used to prop the LP cover in front of me as I listened, because there was a landscape photograph on it. Not a very distinguished photo, actually, but for some reason the landscape haunted me. The sleeve made no mention of where it was. I didn't know, then, of Elgar's connection with Malvern. There was just the music, and this photo.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/Elgar-The-Enigma-Variat-483286_zpsaakkgudg.jpg)

In due course I discovered Malvern, and walked the hills for the first time - and of course there, displayed below me, was my Enigma Variations LP cover. That thrill of recognition, of that seminal musical experience and its association with the landscape, is still always there, even after decades of repeated visits.

So anyway, there we were, last weekend. And fresh from the walk in the hills, we went to the concert: The Royal Philharmonic, with Ben Palmer conducting and Guy Johnston on cello. It was a sellout - the hall was packed. Every item on the musical menu was absurdly familiar: Serenade for strings, cello concerto, and Enigma (with a bit of Holst thrown in for variety), but it didn't matter how many times I've heard these works, it made no difference. They came up fresh as ever on Saturday evening, still redolent of the wind in the grass, the long views from the Worcester Beacon, the ever-changing light of the hills. Was it a good performance? Heck, I don't know. It felt like a wonderful musical experience, and I was on the edge of tears often, so I guess it must have been. Or I might just be an Old Softie.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2015, 04:59:54 AM
That is lovely, I thank you!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 04, 2015, 12:52:11 PM
ALSO ... the flowers are starting to come out at the Birthplace cottage:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/cottage_zpsywhwprza.jpg)   (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/garden_zps0f0ebtjs.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on June 04, 2015, 01:24:36 PM
If you'll permit a Texas-botany analogy, Elgarian posts are the "century plant" of GMG: you don't see one very often at all, but when you do, they're not quickly forgotten. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 05, 2015, 12:45:45 AM
[Friendly wave to Brian and Karl.]

I forgot to mention the amazing series of books that have been coming out at a rate of about two per year via the Elgar Society: two volumes of Elgar's diaries (so far), a reprint of Jerrold Northrop Moore's well-known but (till now) out of print Letters of a Lifetime, the letters to Carice, and more ... Quite extraordinary. You walk into the Birthplace shop/reception area, and there they all are, arranged on the counter. At £35 a time, I can't imagine what sales are like - this is really specialist stuff (Elgar's diaries are very terse and sketchy, so not comfortable reading, even though accompanied by extensive editorial comment), so sales can only be a trickle, surely. The ambition of the exercise is breathtaking. Take a look at the extensive list of proposed publications, and boggle:

http://www.elgar.org/6edition.htm (http://www.elgar.org/6edition.htm)

And here are those currently completed and available:

http://www.elgarmuseum.org/index.php/the-elgar-shop/books/category/55/95/Books/Elgar--The-Collected-Correspondence-&-Family-Diaries (http://www.elgarmuseum.org/index.php/the-elgar-shop/books/category/55/95/Books/Elgar--The-Collected-Correspondence-&-Family-Diaries)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on June 05, 2015, 03:06:53 AM
For some technical reasons it takes me some effort to see the picture posted by Elgarian. There are just empty boxes were the pictures should be. When I "inspect" the html code to find the links, I can go to where the pictures are and finally see them. It's as if my browser prohibits hotlinking. I'm using old Opera 12.16 browser, because it's the last Opera browser containing important properties. It sucks what happened to Opera. I don't want a separate mail program! I need to edit my html-pages! The new Opera browsers don't support this. I suppose no browser supports that these days because people are supposed to just buy online and take selfies for NSA. What a horrible world!

The pictures are very beautiful and it is just amazing how some people can take such photos. I have never owned a proper camera in my life. I don't even own a smartphone with a decent camera. My phone is a 46 euros Nokia 225 with extremely crappy camera.

Why do I use a "third world phone"? Because I am against this "everyone should have an iphone, take idiotic selfies and put them to their twitter account" force-feeding and I want the battery of my phone to last weeks instead of just days (or just one day). I want an intellectual life!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on June 05, 2015, 08:32:53 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 05, 2015, 03:06:53 AMWhy do I use a "third world phone"? Because I am against this "everyone should have an iphone, take idiotic selfies and put them to their twitter account" force-feeding and I want the battery of my phone to last weeks instead of just days (or just one day). I want an intellectual life!

And I bet you don't read literature because you oppose 50 Shades of Grey.  ::)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 05, 2015, 11:02:54 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 05, 2015, 03:06:53 AM
The pictures are very beautiful and it is just amazing how some people can take such photos. I have never owned a proper camera in my life.
Glad you like the pictures. For most of my life I've owned a good camera - not because I have any aspirations towards being a 'serious photographer', but because the camera helps me to enjoy the landscape. I look longer, and deeper, with a camera in my hands, because choosing a viewpoint, and framing and composing the landscape, help me to see. It's true that at the end, if I'm lucky, I get a bunch of photos, but I believe the real benefit is in the looking - in the transient, focused act, rather than the end product..
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on June 05, 2015, 12:37:03 PM
Quote from: North Star on June 05, 2015, 08:32:53 AM
And I bet you don't read literature because you oppose 50 Shades of Grey.  ::)

Why would I oppose 50 Shades of Grey or other literature for that matter?

Quote from: Elgarian on June 05, 2015, 11:02:54 AM
Glad you like the pictures. For most of my life I've owned a good camera - not because I have any aspirations towards being a 'serious photographer', but because the camera helps me to enjoy the landscape. I look longer, and deeper, with a camera in my hands, because choosing a viewpoint, and framing and composing the landscape, help me to see. It's true that at the end, if I'm lucky, I get a bunch of photos, but I believe the real benefit is in the looking - in the transient, focused act, rather than the end product..

Interesting approach.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on June 21, 2015, 11:06:01 PM
Elgar: Symphony No 2             London PO/Solti

I just listened to Solti's rendition of the Second Symphony with the LPO and found it very good although with some caveats. I always get the feeling that Solti has a bad reputation when it comes to Elgar. Is there any truth to that?  In my ears the performance is lacking in personality, but it makes up for it in warmth and richness in its soundscape. The second movement (in particular) really brought power to the performance and made me want to take a closer look at some of the other Solti recordings.  At times I also felt that the flow and pace of the symphony faltered and then picked up again. A bit of the "magic" was lost. Overall this recording is not in my top tier (especially considering the fierce competition), but it is very good. What are your views on Solti's Elgar?


(http://cdn.discogs.com/LuCdp6upJSiKfWtqnr7xUSMsbSo=/fit-in/360x362/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-3190505-1319796893.jpeg.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519JwHO%2BuwL.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2015, 03:37:36 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on June 21, 2015, 11:06:01 PM
I just listened to Solti's rendition of the Second Symphony with the LPO and found it very good although with some caveats. I always get the feeling that Solti has a bad reputation when it comes to Elgar. Is there any truth to that?

Depends who you ask ;)  Not many around here like Solti's Elgar. I do though. In fact, his Violin Concerto (with Chung) is my desert island choice. I think the two artists convey the dual masculine/feminine characteristics of the piece like no one else.

Penguin has this to say about the Second:

"...modeled closely on the composer's own surprisingly clipped and urgent reading, the Second Symphony benefits from virtuoso playing from the LPO and full, well-balanced sound. Fast tempi bring searing concentration, yet the nobilmente element is not missed and the account of the Finale presents a true climax. The effect is magnificent."


Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2015, 03:58:48 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2015, 03:37:36 AM
Depends who you ask ;)  Not many around here like Solti's Elgar. I do though.

I do, as well, and thank you for the rec, Sarge.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 22, 2015, 04:27:56 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on June 21, 2015, 11:06:01 PM
What are your views on Solti's Elgar?

Sarge is bang on the money: it depends who you ask.

Leaving the Chung VC aside, which I know is a great favourite of Sarge's, and which I too can listen to with a lot of pleasure, I can't get on with Solti's Elgar. But I think that may be more to do with my ingrained expectations than any real deficiencies.   I keep thinking 'No, no, it shouldn't be like that' .. and I just end up feeling uncomfortable. Problem is - I know what I want from my Elgar, and if I don't get it, well, it's like being given a bucket full of holes. It makes for a great colander, but not my idea of a bucket. (How the heck did I get into this metaphorical mess?)

Anyway, the upshot is: I think my reservations about Solti are probably more to do with me, and my own limitations, than with Solti.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on June 22, 2015, 01:47:33 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 22, 2015, 03:58:48 AM
I do, as well, and thank you for the rec, Sarge.
Quote from: Elgarian on June 22, 2015, 04:27:56 AM
Sarge is bang on the money: it depends who you ask.

Leaving the Chung VC aside, which I know is a great favourite of Sarge's, and which I too can listen to with a lot of pleasure, I can't get on with Solti's Elgar. But I think that may be more to do with my ingrained expectations than any real deficiencies.   I keep thinking 'No, no, it shouldn't be like that' .. and I just end up feeling uncomfortable. Problem is - I know what I want from my Elgar, and if I don't get it, well, it's like being given a bucket full of holes. It makes for a great colander, but not my idea of a bucket. (How the heck did I get into this metaphorical mess?)

Anyway, the upshot is: I think my reservations about Solti are probably more to do with me, and my own limitations, than with Solti.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2015, 03:37:36 AM
Depends who you ask ;)  Not many around here like Solti's Elgar. I do though. In fact, his Violin Concerto (with Chung) is my desert island choice. I think the two artists convey the dual masculine/feminine characteristics of the piece like no one else.

Sarge

Thanks for the VC recommendation, Sarge! I still have to listen to Chung's rendition!

Interesting comments about Solti! As I read reviews on the web it seems like the appreciation for Solti is all over the place.  Like you, Elgarian, I suspect that I have attuned to my first impressions of the second symphony (via Barbirolli and Boult), which I view as more "magical" and "defining". Listening to Solti was quite a different experience. I wonder how often we all get "trapped" with early impressions of classical music performances ("first listen syndrome").  By the way - great metaphors!   :D 8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on June 22, 2015, 05:59:09 PM
My favorite Elgar 2nd is still Andrew Davis/Philharmonia Orchestra on the Signum Classics label. I've heard so many performances of this symphony prior to Davis' so to be the yin to Peter's yang here, I don't think early impressions have much to do with anything. If I were to suffer 'first-listen syndrome,' then Colin Davis' BSO cycle of Sibelius' symphonies would be my favorite and it's clearly one my least favorite cycles that I own. I was impressed with how different Solti sounded in Elgar initially, but that positive first-impression has worn off quite considerably. I don't like Solti's 'slam-and-bam' way with Elgar. I prefer something more organic that grows from one musical line unto the next without any kind of erratic change in tempo or accentuation where there shouldn't be in the first place. Solti loses points in the second movement Larghetto especially. I didn't feel anything in this movement like I felt in A. Davis' performance.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 22, 2015, 11:57:53 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on June 22, 2015, 01:47:33 PM
I wonder how often we all get "trapped" with early impressions of classical music performances ("first listen syndrome").

I vaguely remember an interesting discussion about this somewhere, sometime, but blowed if I can remember where or when, or in what context. It may not necessarily be 'first listen syndrome' operating, always. For example, my first Enigma was Sargent's, but I haven't been hell-bent on duplicating that ever since - in fact the finest Enigma I know is Monteux's, which I find wonderful partly because of its enticingly delicate differences. I'm inclined in the case of Elgar to think that just at the moment that I was open to whatever it is that I love about Elgar, Sargent stepped in and supplied it - and a whole stream of conductors since then (including Elgar himself) have continued to do broadly the same sort of job. In that first instance it could have been any of them, and I'd have fallen at their feet. But I don't think it could have been Solti ... Or at least, if it had been, I think I'd have grabbed gratefully at Boult or Barbirolli when I heard them.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Wanderer on June 23, 2015, 12:26:25 AM
Regarding Solti's Elgar, I believe it's in the execrable category, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

Quoting myself from another thread:

Quote from: Wanderer on April 22, 2015, 12:17:41 AM
As for Elgar 2: Boult/LPO (my first choice, superb and devastating), A.Davis/Philharmonia, Elder/Hallé, Sinopoli/Philharmonia, Slatkin/LPO for the top 5. I also like Barbirolli (slightly more the Philharmonia than the Hallé rendition) and Tate that Brian mentioned, as well as a number of others. The only truly horrible rendition I've encountered is Solti. He clearly tried to emulate Barbirolli but, lacking the latter's everything, he just sped things up to an incoherent mess. Avoid that one like the plague.

Quote from: Elgarian on June 22, 2015, 11:57:53 PM
It may not necessarily be 'first listen syndrome' operating, always.

Indeed. For instane, Solti's was my first rendition of Elgar 2 and according to the above theory, I should've liked it. The qualities of the work should've shined through. However, I had such a strong allergic reaction to it, it got me off this splendid work for years; finally hearing it from different, any different, conductor/ensemble combo made me realize the work was entirely not to blame. Lest it happens to somebody else, I've been very vocal in my loathing of Solti's version ever since.  $:)

PS. It's not like I don't like Solti in general, most of his work I find quite good (e.g. the Ring, or a quite excellent to my ears Schubert 9). It's just that his Elgar is really that bad.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on June 23, 2015, 07:36:15 AM
It's nearly impossible for me to participate here. I remember how I wanted to educate the world about the miracle of Elgar some 15 years ago. As the years went by I cared less and less about what other people listen to and what they think about Elgar. My cynicism has reached a level where I simply don't care. Especially my job is utterly frustrating, nasty and mind-numbing (believe me, you have no idea). I have to concentrate on my own well-being, fighting depression.

I am not particularly interested of discussing about different performances. I have no interest of even hearing Solti's Elgar. I have seven recordings of Elgar #2 on CD and I think it is enough.

So, I really don't know what I could say about Elgar at the moment. I have nothing to say expect that I have nothing to say.

Please continue...  :P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on June 23, 2015, 07:44:50 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 23, 2015, 07:36:15 AM
It's nearly impossible for me to participate here. I remember how I wanted to educate the world about the miracle of Elgar some 15 years ago. As the years went by I cared less and less about what other people listen to and what they think about Elgar. My cynicism has reached a level where I simply don't care. Especially my job is utterly frustrating, nasty and mind-numbing (believe me, you have no idea). I have to concentrate on my own well-being, fighting depression.

I am not particularly interested of discussing about different performances. I have no interest of even hearing Solti's Elgar. I have seven recordings of Elgar #2 on CD and I think it is enough.

So, I really don't know what I could say about Elgar at the moment. I have nothing to say expect that I have nothing to say.

Please continue...  :P

Such pessimism from you, 71 dB. It sounds like you could've saved yourself time and not even made this post. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2015, 08:12:05 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 23, 2015, 07:36:15 AM
It's nearly impossible for me to participate here. I remember how I wanted to educate the world about the miracle of Elgar some 15 years ago. As the years went by I cared less and less about what other people listen to and what they think about Elgar. My cynicism has reached a level where I simply don't care. Especially my job is utterly frustrating, nasty and mind-numbing (believe me, you have no idea). I have to concentrate on my own well-being, fighting depression.

I am not particularly interested of discussing about different performances. I have no interest of even hearing Solti's Elgar. I have seven recordings of Elgar #2 on CD and I think it is enough.

So, I really don't know what I could say about Elgar at the moment. I have nothing to say expect that I have nothing to say.

Please continue...  :P

Best wishes in your fight against depression.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on June 23, 2015, 08:14:07 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 23, 2015, 08:12:05 AM
Best wishes in your fight against depression.

+1 I don't wish depression on anyone. I can only hope 71 dB makes a full recovery and can enjoy his life again.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on June 23, 2015, 09:18:43 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 23, 2015, 07:44:50 AM
Such pessimism from you, 71 dB. It sounds like you could've saved yourself time and not even made this post. :)
It feels bad to be absent so I posted something. I used to be optimistic (naive) long ago, but I am wiser (less naive) now.

Quote from: karlhenning on June 23, 2015, 08:12:05 AM
Best wishes in your fight against depression.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 23, 2015, 08:14:07 AM
+1 I don't wish depression on anyone. I can only hope 71 dB makes a full recovery and can enjoy his life again.

Thanks for your wishes!  :) I have to say don't really suffer from depression. I have learned to avoid it, but it kind of takes the fun out of life when you have to use so much energy to avoid depression.

People keep telling how bad the economic situation is in Finland. We now have a government pretty much opposing my political views. I am politically green/left wing and our new goverment is anti-green/right wing. Now a very populistic party called "True Finns" is in government because their simplistic politic mantras are popular among. Their politic agenda is horrible. The green party is in opposition despite very good election result. So, what will happen in Finland in the near future will be really nasty at least to people like me. Instead of humanism we will get coldness. Even the cold war came back after a few dacades of sanity! Then there is the eurocrisis thanks to Greek. Climate change has made the weather in Finland very odd. This summer has been the coldest in 50 years and as a meteopath I have suffered a lot. I haven't slept well in 2 months! First time in my life I did suffer strong birch allergy symptoms. Edgar Froese, my music hero died in January. Kesha can't release new music because of the proceedings with Dr Luke.

Given these (pomp and) circumstances, it really is hard to smile don't you think? Positive things do happen, but negative things tend to outweight them. I wish it was the other way around. Then it would be easy to smile.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on June 23, 2015, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on June 23, 2015, 07:36:15 AM
I have no interest of even hearing Solti's Elgar.

Honestly, I don't think you're missing much.

QuoteI have seven recordings of Elgar #2 on CD and I think it is enough.

Sounds like enough, but one never quite knows.

Quote
So, I really don't know what I could say about Elgar at the moment. I have nothing to say expect that I have nothing to say.

I'm glad you joined in, though I'm sorry to hear things are so bad. I hope things improve for you.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on June 23, 2015, 11:20:46 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on June 23, 2015, 10:41:53 AM
Honestly, I don't think you're missing much.

Sounds like enough, but one never quite knows.

I'm glad you joined in, though I'm sorry to hear things are so bad. I hope things improve for you.

Yes.

Just one (Downes on Naxos) would be enough for me. Instead of buying yet another Elgar #2, it is often a good idea of exploring new composers/works, say Stenhammar whose symphony #2 I bought recently.

Thanks! At least my summer vacation starts in July...  8)
Title: Elgar Sym. No. 2 w/Petrenko and Berlin
Post by: bhodges on July 06, 2015, 11:52:34 AM
Berliner Philharmoniker Digital Concert Hall has a performance from 2009 of Elgar's Symphony No. 2 with Kirill Petrenko and the orchestra, FREE. (Have no idea for how long.) Interestingly, this was the first time the orchestra had played this piece since 1972 - over 40 years ago.

https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/concert/14?a=facebook&c=true

Also included is a Beethoven Third Piano Concerto with Lars Vogt.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Elgar Sym. No. 2 w/Petrenko and Berlin
Post by: Moonfish on July 06, 2015, 01:04:01 PM
Quote from: Brewski on July 06, 2015, 11:52:34 AM
Berliner Philharmoniker Digital Concert Hall has a performance from 2009 of Elgar's Symphony No. 2 with Kirill Petrenko and the orchestra, FREE. (Have no idea for how long.) Interestingly, this was the first time the orchestra had played this piece since 1972 - over 40 years ago.

https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/concert/14?a=facebook&c=true

Also included is a Beethoven Third Piano Concerto with Lars Vogt.

--Bruce

I listened to the concert a couple of weeks ago in the wake of the news frenzy of the Petrenko election. I found it curious why he should select a British symphony? It seemed a bit eclectic? Regardless, I enjoyed the performance quite a bit!  The Digital concert hall doesn't exactly overflow with Elgar's works.
Title: Re: Elgar Sym. No. 2 w/Petrenko and Berlin
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 06, 2015, 01:12:47 PM
Quote from: Brewski on July 06, 2015, 11:52:34 AM
Berliner Philharmoniker Digital Concert Hall has a performance from 2009 of Elgar's Symphony No. 2 with Kirill Petrenko and the orchestra, FREE. (Have no idea for how long.) Interestingly, this was the first time the orchestra had played this piece since 1972 - over 40 years ago.

https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/concert/14?a=facebook&c=true

Also included is a Beethoven Third Piano Concerto with Lars Vogt.

--Bruce

Thanks for the heads up, Bruce. Will be watching tonight.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on August 24, 2015, 02:56:52 PM
Well, today is the day I pulled the trigger on some Sinopoli/Elgar:

[asin]B000024ZB1[/asin]

[asin]B000001GNC[/asin]

Being a fan of Maisky may have helped, too.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 24, 2015, 05:39:57 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 24, 2015, 02:56:52 PM
Well, today is the day I pulled the trigger on some Sinopoli/Elgar:

[asin]B000024ZB1[/asin]


(https://d12edgf4lwbh8j.cloudfront.net/photo/image/track_12-_sheer_perfection.gif)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 24, 2015, 07:37:50 PM
What are the best sounding symphonies? I have Boult (EMI) and I like it, but have been wondering if a lush, fantastic sounding version (of course, a fabulous interpretation) might be a nice complement to that one.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: aukhawk on August 25, 2015, 09:51:19 AM
You might find Oramo on BIS of interest though I think Boult's performance can't be beat.

[asin]B00BYN3WR0[/asin]

Though I have to say, after all the Solti-bashing upthread, that I would rather listen to this  ;D - not great sound in these transfers though ...
[asin]B00000425P[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 25, 2015, 06:18:43 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on August 25, 2015, 09:51:19 AM
You might find Oramo on BIS of interest though I think Boult's performance can't be beat.

[asin]B00BYN3WR0[/asin]

Though I have to say, after all the Solti-bashing upthread, that I would rather listen to this  ;D - not great sound in these transfers though ...
[asin]B00000425P[/asin]

I agree with the Oramo, it's the best sounding Elgar I've heard. Flawless detail within the orchestra. Although there are better interpretations. I would even suggest the Elder/Halle discs. And an additional +1 for the Solti recordings.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Brian on August 25, 2015, 06:40:31 PM
Oramo's #2 is good and his #1 is great. I remember the EMI Jeffrey Tate recordings having pretty great sound?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 25, 2015, 06:58:43 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 25, 2015, 06:40:31 PM
Oramo's #2 is good and his #1 is great. I remember the EMI Jeffrey Tate recordings having pretty great sound?

Tate is great, it's a slower approach to Elgar's symphonies, but it totally works.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on September 18, 2015, 07:29:59 AM
I heard the second movement of Elgar's First Symphony, conducted by Bryden Thomson with the LPO (Chandos) and was very impressed so I bought a very cheap second hand copy. It is the most lyrical and songful account that I have ever heard and strongly recommend it. The 1986 recording is equally impressive. I have many different versions (Boult x 3, Barbirolli, Solti, Tate etcetc) but this is my number one version at the moment. The slow movement sounds Brucknerian.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on September 18, 2015, 06:28:35 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 18, 2015, 07:29:59 AM
I heard the second movement of Elgar's First Symphony, conducted by Bryden Thomson with the LPO (Chandos) and was very impressed so I bought a very cheap second hand copy. It is the most lyrical and songful account that I have ever heard and strongly recommend it. The 1986 recording is equally impressive. I have many different versions (Boult x 3, Barbirolli, Solti, Tate etcetc) but this is my number one version at the moment. The slow movement sounds Brucknerian.

I have Thomson's Elgar lying around somewhere. Must plan a revisit at some juncture. Thanks for the reminder, Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on September 18, 2015, 11:19:25 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 18, 2015, 07:29:59 AM
I heard the second movement of Elgar's First Symphony, conducted by Bryden Thomson with the LPO (Chandos) and was very impressed so I bought a very cheap second hand copy. It is the most lyrical and songful account that I have ever heard and strongly recommend it. The 1986 recording is equally impressive. I have many different versions (Boult x 3, Barbirolli, Solti, Tate etcetc) but this is my number one version at the moment. The slow movement sounds Brucknerian.

Thanks for the recommendaton. I have just downloaded the discs of Thomson conducting both symphonies and will listen to them on my long train journey home today.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on September 19, 2015, 01:06:55 AM
Quote from: knight66 on September 18, 2015, 11:19:25 PM
Thanks for the recommendaton. I have just downloaded the discs of Thomson conducting both symphonies and will listen to them on my long train journey home today.

Mike

I'd be very interested to hear what you think Mike. No.2 was much more expensive on Amazon so I only bought No.1. I have rarely been so moved by a performance of a work that I am very familiar with. I hope that you enjoy hearing it. I think that Bryden Thomson was such an underrated conductor and sad that he passed away comparatively young.

Jeffrey
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on September 19, 2015, 06:27:35 AM
Jeffrey, I have only so far listened to the 1st Symphony and I enjoyed it a great deal The tempi feel natural and I sense more layering in the inner movements than I am used to. It is a moving performance. He really uses silences in the way I think of them in Bruckner, eg after the in initial statement of the opening theme in the first movement. The silence somehow means something; it is not merely an absence of sound. I do like the final movement with a bit more rip to the fast passages; but the performance really did engage me and I will be going back to it quickly for another listen. The quality of the sound is very good. I agree that Thomson is not remembered as he should be for his recordings.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on September 19, 2015, 07:52:49 AM
Quote from: knight66 on September 19, 2015, 06:27:35 AM
Jeffrey, I have only so far listened to the 1st Symphony and I enjoyed it a great deal The tempi feel natural and I sense more layering in the inner movements than I am used to. It is a moving performance. He really uses silences in the way I think of them in Bruckner, eg after the in initial statement of the opening theme in the first movement. The silence somehow means something; it is not merely an absence of sound. I do like the final movement with a bit more rip to the fast passages; but the performance really did engage me and I will be going back to it quickly for another listen. The quality of the sound is very good. I agree that Thomson is not remembered as he should be for his recordings.

Mike

Mike, thanks so much for the speedy feedback and I'm delighted that you liked the performance. I found the coda even more affecting than usual in this performance. Let us know what you think of No.2 when you get there. I think that his Walton Symphony 1 is another top choice. My OCDCD means that I have 20+ recordings of it but Thomson rates very highly.

Jeffrey
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on September 19, 2015, 08:39:49 AM
I don't know the Second symphony anything like as well as I know the First. So, I doubt that my opinion is worth waiting for. I will look out the Walton to store for listening to. Again thanks.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 28, 2015, 05:46:45 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 25, 2015, 06:40:31 PM
Oramo's #2 is good and his #1 is great. I remember the EMI Jeffrey Tate recordings having pretty great sound?
So I ended up getting these (Tate) to supplement my Boult. And the sound on #1 is pretty phenomenal. The playing is great as well. It has a different sensibility than Boult, but what a sound Tate coaxes out of the orchestra. Will try #2 another day, but worked out well. I should mention that I went for this one, because it was at Berkshire for a pittance compared to Amazon prices.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 10, 2015, 12:06:54 AM
I've been in Malvern the last couple of days, to do a bit of walking and pottering, and to attend a concert at the Malvern Forum Theatre: Elgar's Froissart, Brahms 3rd symphony, Elgar's violin concerto : English Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Kenneth Woods, with Alexander Sitkovetsky as soloist.

Froissart has never come even close to being among my favourite Elgar works, and on this outing it seemed less appealing than usual. The Brahms third symphony seemed wooden, and by the interval I was starting to wonder whether I really wanted to hear a dull and plodding performance of the violin concerto ...

But you know ... from the opening bars it was like listening to a different orchestra: thoroughly energised, off we went, and after we'd got to the magic moment when the violin first enters, I knew it was all going to be alright.

Well it was more than alright. It was stupendous. Sitkovetsky's violin seemed to lift the orchestra to the most wonderful heights of expression: his playing was quite beyond anything I've heard before. I can't comment on the technical side, but it seemed that the anguished longing of Elgar's music was bleeding from his playing.  So there I am, carried along, riding every note, eyes on the edge of tears, and sometimes over the edge, listening to the interplay of all the windfloweriness as if I'd never really heard it played before as it should be played.

I've since tried to work out just what made it so special, and I just can't figure it. Of course it was Malvern, so the Elgar link is always special there, but this ran far deeper than mere association between a man and a place. And it wasn't just me: we were all on our feet at the end, applauding with hands over our heads. It seemed that Sitkovetsky had got right under Elgar's skin, teasing out all that longing for something - something to do with a love of nature, something to do with his piercing yearning for some aspect of the eternal feminine that always eluded him, that always made him respond with an uneasy mixture of joy and pain. The emotional impact was physical (a knot of tightness and pain at the heart, coming and going as the music evolved) and exhausting.

I was left thinking that my collection of recordings of the violin concerto would be inadequate after this. They would just become reminders of this. The next day we walked up Midsummer Hill, at the southern end of the Malverns. The sun shone, and it was warm, and we sat on the grass with the whole of Worcestershire beneath us, and there was nothing really to say about it all. What can you say, the day after you've heard one of the two or three most inspiring musical performances of your life?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 10, 2015, 10:04:13 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 10, 2015, 12:06:54 AM
I've been in Malvern the last couple of days, to do a bit of walking and pottering, and to attend a concert at the Malvern Forum Theatre: Elgar's Froissart, Brahms 3rd symphony, Elgar's violin concerto : English Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Kenneth Woods, with Alexander Sitkovetsky as soloist.

Froissart has never come even close to being among my favourite Elgar works, and on this outing it seemed less appealing than usual. The Brahms third symphony seemed wooden, and by the interval I was starting to wonder whether I really wanted to hear a dull and plodding performance of the violin concerto ...

But you know ... from the opening bars it was like listening to a different orchestra: thoroughly energised, off we went, and after we'd got to the magic moment when the violin first enters, I knew it was all going to be alright.

Well it was more than alright. It was stupendous. Sitkovetsky's violin seemed to lift the orchestra to the most wonderful heights of expression: his playing was quite beyond anything I've heard before. I can't comment on the technical side, but it seemed that the anguished longing of Elgar's music was bleeding from his playing.  So there I am, carried along, riding every note, eyes on the edge of tears, and sometimes over the edge, listening to the interplay of all the windfloweriness as if I'd never really heard it played before as it should be played.

I've since tried to work out just what made it so special, and I just can't figure it. Of course it was Malvern, so the Elgar link is always special there, but this ran far deeper than mere association between a man and a place. And it wasn't just me: we were all on our feet at the end, applauding with hands over our heads. It seemed that Sitkovetsky had got right under Elgar's skin, teasing out all that longing for something - something to do with a love of nature, something to do with his piercing yearning for some aspect of the eternal feminine that always eluded him, that always made him respond with an uneasy mixture of joy and pain. The emotional impact was physical (a knot of tightness and pain at the heart, coming and going as the music evolved) and exhausting.

I was left thinking that my collection of recordings of the violin concerto would be inadequate after this. They would just become reminders of this. The next day we walked up Midsummer Hill, at the southern end of the Malverns. The sun shone, and it was warm, and we sat on the grass with the whole of Worcestershire beneath us, and there was nothing really to say about it all. What can you say, the day after you've heard one of the two or three most inspiring musical performances of your life?
More please?

Wonderful story. I had a similar experience with a Prokofiev Romeo and Juliet performance. I didn't listen to a recording of it for quite some time after that.

By the way, do you know if Alexander is related to Dmitry Sitkovetsky?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on October 10, 2015, 10:14:19 AM
Delighted to read that report (although too bad about the Brahms f minor symphony getting all stalk-ey).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 10, 2015, 11:07:01 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 10, 2015, 10:04:13 AM
I had a similar experience with a Prokofiev Romeo and Juliet performance. I didn't listen to a recording of it for quite some time after that.

By the way, do you know if Alexander is related to Dmitry Sitkovetsky?

I think (though it doesn't mention it in the programme) that Alexander may be Dmitry's nephew.

I know just what you mean about your Romeo and Juliet, and the inadequacy of recordings when you've just been shot between the eyes by the Real Thing. Also, I can't help wondering: suppose I had a recording of that performance: what would I think? I betcha I'd start niggling at it in the way we tend to here on GMG, you know - picking at this bit here and that bit there, and how Bean had got that bit right, and Little had maybe slightly missed it, and don't you think Kennedy is just a bit too much fireworkish sometimes ...? and so on and so on. But when it's the Real Thing, none of that stuff really matters. On Thursday evening we were all just hanging on to the ride, not wanting to miss a note, feeling the pain and the joy of it (and not being sure which was which), and wanting it never to end. There's this big symbiotic thing going on between audience and performer - no microphone can catch that - so it's so much more than a merely listening experience, and not amenable to much analysis.

After it ended, we just sat for ages as the theatre emptied. When we eventually left, I felt I needed to say 'thank you' to somebody - and spotted a horn player walking out onto the street, instrument hanging on his back. So I caught him up and said, 'Excuse me, but I need to thank someone for that miraculous performance. May I please thank you, as representative of everyone else?' He probably thought I was nuts, but he accepted the thanks with good grace, and seemed pleased enough.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on October 10, 2015, 11:19:19 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 10, 2015, 11:07:01 AM
I know just what you mean about your Romeo and Juliet, and the inadequacy of recordings when you've just been shot between the eyes by the Real Thing. Also, I can't help wondering: suppose I had a recording of that performance: what would I think? I betcha I'd start niggling at it in the way we tend to here on GMG, you know - picking at this bit here and that bit there, and how Bean had got that bit right, and Little had maybe slightly missed it, and don't you think Kennedy is just a bit too much fireworkish sometimes ...? and so on and so on. But when it's the Real Thing, none of that stuff really matters.

Emphasis mine.  Absolutely right!  That is part of the beauty of live performance; then, in particular, we owe it to both the music and the performers, to live in the moment.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 10, 2015, 11:40:55 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 10, 2015, 11:07:01 AM
I think (though it doesn't mention it in the programme) that Alexander may be Dmitry's nephew.

I know just what you mean about your Romeo and Juliet, and the inadequacy of recordings when you've just been shot between the eyes by the Real Thing. Also, I can't help wondering: suppose I had a recording of that performance: what would I think? I betcha I'd start niggling at it in the way we tend to here on GMG, you know - picking at this bit here and that bit there, and how Bean had got that bit right, and Little had maybe slightly missed it, and don't you think Kennedy is just a bit too much fireworkish sometimes ...? and so on and so on. But when it's the Real Thing, none of that stuff really matters. On Thursday evening we were all just hanging on to the ride, not wanting to miss a note, feeling the pain and the joy of it (and not being sure which was which), and wanting it never to end. There's this big symbiotic thing going on between audience and performer - no microphone can catch that - so it's so much more than a merely listening experience, and not amenable to much analysis.

After it ended, we just sat for ages as the theatre emptied. When we eventually left, I felt I needed to say 'thank you' to somebody - and spotted a horn player walking out onto the street, instrument hanging on his back. So I caught him up and said, 'Excuse me, but I need to thank someone for that miraculous performance. May I please thank you, as representative of everyone else?' He probably thought I was nuts, but he accepted the thanks with good grace, and seemed pleased enough.
I think that the immediacy of the performance is part of it too (agree with Karl completely here). But I find that life-moving performances seem to have something more. It's like the performers (and composer) are speaking directly to you with no third-party involvement (if that makes any sense), which makes the performance more personal. More primal maybe? In any case, I'm glad you enjoyed it. And I'll bet that horn player will tell that story for years. It isn't very typical in my experience. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian on October 10, 2015, 12:03:35 PM
A few photos from the top of Midsummer Hill - nothing special in the way of photography, but it's an afternoon I want to remember: 'The day after the night before'.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/Midsummer%20hill%202_zpsxgoqodim.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/Midsummer%20hill%203_zps7k6gxoat.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/Midsummer%20hill%201_zpsr7rqnyzy.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on October 10, 2015, 05:15:40 PM
Beautiful, thank you.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on October 15, 2015, 05:45:25 AM
It seems I'm currently having my Elgar phase...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on October 15, 2015, 05:51:05 AM
Quote from: Alberich on October 15, 2015, 05:45:25 AM
It seems I'm currently having my Elgar phase...

Great place to visit!  (Probably would not mind living there.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 15, 2015, 05:57:34 AM
Quote from: Alberich on October 15, 2015, 05:45:25 AM
It seems I'm currently having my Elgar phase...

Whats the work that started this phase?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on October 15, 2015, 07:01:31 AM
^ Op. 59 songs, violin sonata and violin concerto. Not necessarily the easiest music (with the exception of op. 59) but careful listening paid off.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on October 15, 2015, 07:12:24 AM
The Violin Sonata convinced me of Elgar's greatness.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 15, 2015, 07:12:38 AM
Quote from: Alberich on October 15, 2015, 07:01:31 AM
^ Op. 59 songs, violin sonata and violin concerto. Not necessarily the easiest music (with the exception of op. 59) but careful listening paid off.

The sonata is worth starting a phase on its own. Thanks, Alberich!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 15, 2015, 07:39:15 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 15, 2015, 07:12:24 AM
The Violin Sonata convinced me of Elgar's greatness.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 15, 2015, 07:12:38 AM
The sonata is worth starting a phase on its own. Thanks, Alberich!

Great minds....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 15, 2015, 07:44:27 AM
Quote from: Alberich on October 15, 2015, 05:45:25 AM
It seems I'm currently having my Elgar phase...

I'm afraid not too many people in Finland ever have their Elgar phase...  ::)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on October 15, 2015, 07:59:25 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 15, 2015, 07:39:15 AM
Great minds....

0:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: jfdrex on October 15, 2015, 08:54:19 AM
I've just come across this review of the world premiere of a "new" Elgar work--the "War Symphony," an orchestral transcription by Donald Fraser of Elgar's Piano Quintet, given in Birmingham a few days ago by the English Symphony Orchestra:

http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/whats-on/arts-culture-news/review-elgars-war-symphony-english-10241432 (http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/whats-on/arts-culture-news/review-elgars-war-symphony-english-10241432)

Did any of our doughty Elgarians here happen to attend this concert?  Any thoughts on the authenticity (or otherwise) of Fraser's achievement?  This is the first I've heard of him.  So far, I've not read any other reviews.

This apparently follows hard on the heels of a new arrangement of the Sea Pictures for choir and string orchestra.

Fraser has been keeping a blog of the current "Elgar Pilgrimage" concert series:  http://donaldfraser.com/blog1.html (http://donaldfraser.com/blog1.html)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 15, 2015, 10:51:02 AM
Quote from: jfdrex on October 15, 2015, 08:54:19 AM
I've just come across this review of the world premiere of a "new" Elgar work--the "War Symphony," an orchestral transcription by Donald Fraser of Elgar's Piano Quintet, given in Birmingham a few days ago by the English Symphony Orchestra:

http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/whats-on/arts-culture-news/review-elgars-war-symphony-english-10241432 (http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/whats-on/arts-culture-news/review-elgars-war-symphony-english-10241432)

Did any of our doughty Elgarians here happen to attend this concert?  Any thoughts on the authenticity (or otherwise) of Fraser's achievement?  This is the first I've heard of him.  So far, I've not read any other reviews.

This apparently follows hard on the heels of a new arrangement of the Sea Pictures for choir and string orchestra.

Fraser has been keeping a blog of the current "Elgar Pilgrimage" concert series:  http://donaldfraser.com/blog1.html (http://donaldfraser.com/blog1.html)
When you say 'authenticity' what exactly do you mean? It is not the work as Elgar wrote it exactly, but throughout history many great pieces of music (and many lesser so) have been transcribed so that other people could play it. And some transcriptions are more literal than others. I think the better question is 'Does it work?' Personally, I like stuff like this - they usually push you to think about the music differently. I would love to hear it myself, so I hope some enterprising label will give it a go. Thanks for bringing it to our attention!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 15, 2015, 11:19:51 AM
Elgar's mighty PQ orchestrated? Wow!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on October 16, 2015, 02:36:35 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 15, 2015, 11:19:51 AM
Elgar's mighty PQ orchestrated? Wow!

Well, if Brahms's Piano quartet was orchestrated...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on October 16, 2015, 03:36:02 AM
Quote from: Alberich on October 16, 2015, 02:36:35 AM
Well, if Brahms's Piano quartet was orchestrated...

OTOH, Schoenberg is a master orchestrator  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 16, 2015, 07:23:14 AM
Quote from: Alberich on October 16, 2015, 02:36:35 AM
Well, if Brahms's Piano quartet was orchestrated...

Which one? Op. 25, Op. 26 or Op. 60 ?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on October 16, 2015, 08:11:32 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on October 16, 2015, 07:23:14 AM
Which one? Op. 25, Op. 26 or Op. 60 ?

Op. 25, by Schoenberg. And I have to agree with Karl about top-notch orchestrating skills of Schoenberg, at least in this regard.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 17, 2015, 12:12:44 AM
Quote from: Alberich on October 16, 2015, 08:11:32 AM
Op. 25, by Schoenberg. And I have to agree with Karl about top-notch orchestrating skills of Schoenberg, at least in this regard.

I see. I didn't know about that orchestration.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on October 26, 2015, 09:02:23 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 15, 2015, 07:12:24 AM
The Violin Sonata convinced me of Elgar's greatness.

Ah yes, is this where you were a page turner at a performance in college or something, Karl? I can't quite remember the story. Anyway, the Violin Sonata is certainly a work I cherish and hold in high regard, but there are so many other Elgar works that just hit me like a ton on of bricks upon first-hearing, while, several others, took awhile for me to appreciate.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on November 22, 2015, 03:25:44 AM
Elgar: Sea Pictures, Pomp and Circumstance Marches 1 to 5, Polonia.
Halle Orchestra, Sir Mark Elder, Alice Coote

This is seemingly the last of the survey by Elder of Elgar's mature works. I have several previous releases which I enjoy a great deal; chief amongst them is Gerontius which also involves Coote.

The main draw is likely to be Sea Pictures and here again Coote manages to equal Janet Baker without at all immitating her. She pulled this off in Gerontius where her use of words and phrasing was fresh and involving. Here the first song is startling. She is unusually close to the microphone, as though confiding the words to you alone. The consonants are gently but firmly there. The pace is hypnotic with the orchestra providing a strong oceanic surge under the voice. I read a review that suggested that she was crooning: nonsense. She sings beautifully. This is a very individual take on the songs. I enjoy the obvious engagement with the words and the security of the voice. Another critic suggests she is detached from the text; I simply don't understand that remark. She colours the words with imagination and makes them make sense.

Mark Elder is an underrated conductor. He has a wide repertoire and invariably in the last decade has been praised for his work. But he does not maintain a particularily high profile. I suggest people look out for his work, Mahler 9th, Gotterdammerung, Elgar a womderful La Mer and much more.

He has brought the Halle back into the limelight and playing is now world class. He has an afinity with various kinds of music and explores rare opera which he learns specifically for recording purposes. He is a very skilled opera conductor. His Offenbach is another delight. At the Halle he has shown how good he is in Strauss, Shostakovich, Beethoven and of course the English composers. This disc illustrates how he can walk the line between excitement and bombast. The Pomp and Circumstance Marches can fall the wrong side of that line. He is fairly brisque, but allows space for phrasing. They come across as celebratory. He traverses the Sea Pictures from a wonderfully narcoleptic start through to a triumphant close in an arc which I have not detected from any other conductor.

The Polonia piece is very rare indeed, a miscelleny of Polish tunes woven together in Elgar's unmistakable soundscape. Not great music I think, but pleasureable and placed between the songs and marches.

The disc is on Spotify if people want to try it out. I went searching for more of Elder's music making and a clutch of discs are on the way.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 22, 2015, 06:01:47 AM
Thanks for the report, Mike. I'm really looking forward to that recording of Sea Pictures w/ Coote, Elder, and the Halle. I've been really impressed with Elder's traversal of Elgar so far, so this is, for me, an essential acquisition.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 07, 2016, 12:49:00 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 22, 2015, 06:01:47 AM
I've been really impressed with Elder's traversal of Elgar so far,

Me too, which is why I went to this concert last Saturday -

Chicago Symphony Orchestra
Sir Mark Elder, conductor
Vaughan Williams: Overture to The Wasps
Vaughan Williams: Five Variants of "Dives and Lazarus"
Elgar: Symphony No.1

The VW stuff was nice, but of course this big symphony was the highlight. I haven't heard Elder's recording of it, but I can't imagine it's better than what I heard. The CSO brass blasted away at full throttle in the climactic moments, and Elder was very deft with the rubato, highlighting important parts without underlining them too much, giving a nice dramatic ebb and flow. Just a really good performance all around, greeted with an enthusiastic ovation at the end. Now, can we have him back soon to do the other symphony?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on March 08, 2016, 03:25:39 AM
It's already eight years ago, but Elder led the BSO in a cracking performance of the Shostakovich Op.43. And the other piece on the program was the Sibelius vn cto, played by Repin, so an outstanding evening.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: amw on April 27, 2016, 04:47:54 AM
Does anyone rate the Hickox cycle on Chandos? (They haven't yet gotten around to removing recordings pre 2012 from Qobuz, though I'm sure they intend to, so I'm listening to No. 1 and find it quite good—though a bit slow, and I don't know the work well, only familiar with Norrington/Stuttgart. I'm not sure I've ever heard any recording of No. 2, so that one will be next, maybe.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on April 27, 2016, 03:19:14 PM
Quote from: amw on April 27, 2016, 04:47:54 AM
Does anyone rate the Hickox cycle on Chandos? (They haven't yet gotten around to removing recordings pre 2012 from Qobuz, though I'm sure they intend to, so I'm listening to No. 1 and find it quite good—though a bit slow, and I don't know the work well, only familiar with Norrington/Stuttgart. I'm not sure I've ever heard any recording of No. 2, so that one will be next, maybe.)

Pales in comparison to Boult, Barbirolli, Elder, and A. Davis. You're better of with these IMHO. I never thought Hickox had the right feel for Elgar, but that's just IMHO.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on April 29, 2016, 11:39:58 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 27, 2016, 03:19:14 PM
I never thought Hickox had the right feel for Elgar, but that's just IMHO.

I have not heard Hickox doing the symphonies, but I think he does well with Caractacus, Severn Suite for orchestra, The Black Knight, The Banner of St George, The Music Makers, The Spirit of England,...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2016, 05:34:21 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 29, 2016, 11:39:58 PM
I have not heard Hickox doing the symphonies, but I think he does well with Caractacus, Severn Suite for orchestra, The Black Knight, The Banner of St George, The Music Makers, The Spirit of England,...

I've never been wowed by a Hickox Elgar performance and I've all of the works you mentioned above. Caractacus is a work I seldom listen to as I don't think it's that great of a work and the same goes for The Black Knight and The Banner of St. George.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on April 30, 2016, 08:17:01 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 30, 2016, 05:34:21 AM
I've never been wowed by a Hickox Elgar performance and I've all of the works you mentioned above. Caractacus is a work I seldom listen to as I don't think it's that great of a work and the same goes for The Black Knight and The Banner of St. George.

I don't get this "I only care about the 10-15 greatest works by Elgar" -mentality. I think Caractacus is very underrated work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2016, 08:19:22 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 30, 2016, 08:17:01 AM
I don't get this "I only care about the 10-15 greatest works by Elgar" -mentality. I think Caractacus is very underrated work.

It's really not for you to get or understand. It's simply me telling you I don't care for those afore mentioned works. I find them unmemorable and not worth my time to revisit despite whatever merit you may find in them. I'm not shutting myself off to them because I think they're 'bad' music, but not everything a composer, even one I love as much as Elgar, is worth my time. Maybe my opinion will change somewhere down the road, but that's a road I'm not too concerned with at the moment.

This said, there are a lot of works by Elgar (one of my absolute favorite composers) that I do love that don't get much mention and those are the lighter works like Nursery Suite and The Wand Of Youth Suites for example. One of the most incredible works he penned was The Spirit of England. Again, this is a work that doesn't get talked about much, but is well-known to us Elgarians.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on July 15, 2016, 02:41:23 AM
I have revisited recently Elder's Gerontius, The Apostles and The Kingdom. Initially these performances left me a bit cold except Gerontius. I feld I have warmed up to these a bit now, but still I feel Boult's The Apostles and The Kingdom are superior. Elder's Gerontius is more successful and is probably the best Gerontius I have.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 13, 2016, 04:22:24 PM
Not much activity on hillside...  ::)

This looks interesting:

[asin]B01HO8DUE8[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on December 14, 2016, 03:14:57 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 13, 2016, 04:22:24 PM
Not much activity on hillside...  ::)

This looks interesting:

[asin]B01HO8DUE8[/asin]

I've heard amazing responses from listeners about this set. I can't wait to get it. Aces!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on December 14, 2016, 03:17:01 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81NqxmC0M8L._SX522_.jpg)

I'm listening to the Wand of Youth this morning from this set. This set is truly a gift that keeps on giving. Isn't it really amazing we have these recordings?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on December 14, 2016, 03:18:48 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on December 14, 2016, 03:17:01 AM
Isn't it really amazing we have these recordings?

Aye.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 14, 2016, 03:52:14 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on December 14, 2016, 03:17:01 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81NqxmC0M8L._SX522_.jpg)

I'm listening to the Wand of Youth this morning from this set. This set is truly a gift that keeps on giving. Isn't it really amazing we have these recordings?
I don't have much "Elgar conducts Elgar" stuff. I have:

[asin]B000XHALAE[/asin]
[asin]B000026C8A[/asin]
[asin]B000BK53BK[/asin]

+ What's the EMI 30 CD boxset.

What is intetesting is why other composers of Elgar's time didn't do the same?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 08, 2017, 06:20:09 PM
Perhaps a bit controversial, but this is one of the best 2nd's I've listened to. Top 2 for sure. The synergy between conductor and the Staatskapelle Berlin is great, and Barenboim's interpretation, although could easily be seen as unconventional, I find to successfully explore and deliver a unique offering of how Elgar can be performed. The real challenge here is Barenboim, who in his later age seems to become more adventurous with well-known repertoire (similar to his recent Bruckner 7th with the same group, another one worth checking into), but this adventure works. Elgar's 2nd is a masterpiece, and is filled with many lovely, lyrical and fervent moments, and Barenboim is never afraid to enhance these moments with an extra dynamic or tempo adjustment. I've never heard a final movement quite like this one, its never dull and constantly building and moving towards its goal, ending on a sedated, hushed coda that is a perfect reflection of the previous 50 minutes. I really love this recording.
I used to always look at Sinopoli as my go-to for Elgar's 2nd, his broad approach appealed to me, but now seems quite monotonous in comparison to Barenboim/Berlin. Put it alongside Solti/LPO, Oramo/Stockholm and Barbirolli/Halle and you'll have a great assortment of flavor for this grand piece.



[asin]B00ITUVDZ4[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on March 08, 2017, 06:45:49 PM
Welcome back, Greg! Personally, I don't think much of Barenboim's conducting, so I can't say I have much interest in that Elgar 2nd recording.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 09, 2017, 02:59:19 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 08, 2017, 06:45:49 PM
Welcome back, Greg! Personally, I don't think much of Barenboim's conducting, so I can't say I have much interest in that Elgar 2nd recording.

Howdy, John.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on March 09, 2017, 03:42:41 AM
Cheers, Greg!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 09, 2017, 06:45:03 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 09, 2017, 03:42:41 AM
Cheers, Greg!

howdy, Karl.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on March 09, 2017, 06:06:25 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 08, 2017, 06:20:09 PM
Perhaps a bit controversial, but this is one of the best 2nd's I've listened to. Top 2 for sure. The synergy between conductor and the Staatskapelle Berlin is great, and Barenboim's interpretation, although could easily be seen as unconventional, I find to successfully explore and deliver a unique offering of how Elgar can be performed. The real challenge here is Barenboim, who in his later age seems to become more adventurous with well-known repertoire (similar to his recent Bruckner 7th with the same group, another one worth checking into), but this adventure works. Elgar's 2nd is a masterpiece, and is filled with many lovely, lyrical and fervent moments, and Barenboim is never afraid to enhance these moments with an extra dynamic or tempo adjustment. I've never heard a final movement quite like this one, its never dull and constantly building and moving towards its goal, ending on a sedated, hushed coda that is a perfect reflection of the previous 50 minutes. I really love this recording.
I used to always look at Sinopoli as my go-to for Elgar's 2nd, his broad approach appealed to me, but now seems quite monotonous in comparison to Barenboim/Berlin. Put it alongside Solti/LPO, Oramo/Stockholm and Barbirolli/Halle and you'll have a great assortment of flavor for this grand piece.


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00ITUVDZ4.01.L.jpg)

Most interesting, of course. The timing of your post (apart from the fact that anytime you hang out here is a happy occasion) is fortuitous ... I've had the Sinopoli around for a couple of years, but have I listened to it? I was gearing up to address that shameful neglect, by loading it onto the flying flash drive, so voilà! I listened to the first movement this evening. Gosh, I love it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 10, 2017, 08:45:22 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 09, 2017, 06:06:25 PM
I've had the Sinopoli around for a couple of years, but have I listened to it? I was gearing up to address that shameful neglect, by loading it onto the flying flash drive, so voilà! I listened to the first movement this evening. Gosh, I love it.

It's been many many years since I heard Sinopoli and if my memory serves me well it was a weird experience.  ???
Title: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Leo K. on May 08, 2017, 04:29:25 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 08, 2017, 06:20:09 PM
Perhaps a bit controversial, but this is one of the best 2nd's I've listened to. Top 2 for sure. The synergy between conductor and the Staatskapelle Berlin is great, and Barenboim's interpretation, although could easily be seen as unconventional, I find to successfully explore and deliver a unique offering of how Elgar can be performed. The real challenge here is Barenboim, who in his later age seems to become more adventurous with well-known repertoire (similar to his recent Bruckner 7th with the same group, another one worth checking into), but this adventure works. Elgar's 2nd is a masterpiece, and is filled with many lovely, lyrical and fervent moments, and Barenboim is never afraid to enhance these moments with an extra dynamic or tempo adjustment. I've never heard a final movement quite like this one, its never dull and constantly building and moving towards its goal, ending on a sedated, hushed coda that is a perfect reflection of the previous 50 minutes. I really love this recording.
I used to always look at Sinopoli as my go-to for Elgar's 2nd, his broad approach appealed to me, but now seems quite monotonous in comparison to Barenboim/Berlin. Put it alongside Solti/LPO, Oramo/Stockholm and Barbirolli/Halle and you'll have a great assortment of flavor for this grand piece.

[asin]B00ITUVDZ4[/asin]

I agree on all counts and the Barenboim Elgar 2nd
Is at the top of my favorites right now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 08, 2017, 08:32:29 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 08, 2017, 06:20:09 PM
Perhaps a bit controversial, but this is one of the best 2nd's I've listened to. Top 2 for sure. The synergy between conductor and the Staatskapelle Berlin is great, and Barenboim's interpretation, although could easily be seen as unconventional, I find to successfully explore and deliver a unique offering of how Elgar can be performed. The real challenge here is Barenboim, who in his later age seems to become more adventurous with well-known repertoire (similar to his recent Bruckner 7th with the same group, another one worth checking into), but this adventure works. Elgar's 2nd is a masterpiece, and is filled with many lovely, lyrical and fervent moments, and Barenboim is never afraid to enhance these moments with an extra dynamic or tempo adjustment. I've never heard a final movement quite like this one, its never dull and constantly building and moving towards its goal, ending on a sedated, hushed coda that is a perfect reflection of the previous 50 minutes. I really love this recording.
I used to always look at Sinopoli as my go-to for Elgar's 2nd, his broad approach appealed to me, but now seems quite monotonous in comparison to Barenboim/Berlin. Put it alongside Solti/LPO, Oramo/Stockholm and Barbirolli/Halle and you'll have a great assortment of flavor for this grand piece.

[asin]B00ITUVDZ4[/asin]

Just listened to this on Spotify. Barenboim does pretty well, but not extraordinarily well. People say the tempi are so good. Okay, they are pretty good. The problem of this recording is the sound. I have never been a fan of "Decca sound". The upper bass is boomy as hell, the lower bass sounds lacking in comparison and all the egdes and transients of the sound have been rounded soft. High frequences never hit your ears as they should. Somehow the orchestra sounds small, as if it was a chamber orchestra. The result is very unrealistic, as if I was standing inside a phone booth inside the concert hall listening to the orchestra. I don't understand what is wrong with Decca's sound engineers. It's not 1960s anymore!

My go-to recording of this masterpiece is Edward Downes on Naxos. Not because it's Naxos and I am a "Naxos guy", but because it simply is a near-perfect performance without any problems. Tempi are great, sound is good and balanced. Downes really gets Elgar imo. I am not the only one praising this performance, and it's dirt cheap when bought used.  :)

I also like Elder/Hallé and Boult is always good with Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 08, 2017, 11:31:09 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 08, 2017, 08:32:29 AM
Just listened to this on Spotify. Barenboim does pretty well, but not extraordinarily well. People say the tempi are so good. Okay, they are pretty good. The problem of this recording is the sound. I have never been a fan of "Decca sound". The upper bass is boomy as hell, the lower bass sounds lacking in comparison and all the egdes and transients of the sound have been rounded soft. High frequences never hit your ears as they should. Somehow the orchestra sounds small, as if it was a chamber orchestra. The result is very unrealistic, as if I was standing inside a phone booth inside the concert hall listening to the orchestra. I don't understand what is wrong with Decca's sound engineers. It's not 1960s anymore!

My go-to recording of this masterpiece is Edward Downes on Naxos. Not because it's Naxos and I am a "Naxos guy", but because it simply is a near-perfect performance without any problems. Tempi are great, sound is good and balanced. Downes really gets Elgar imo. I am not the only one praising this performance, and it's dirt cheap when bought used.  :)

I also like Elder/Hallé and Boult is always good with Elgar.

Elder and Boult are good, I agree. Thanks for your post, 71db!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 08, 2017, 11:49:18 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on May 08, 2017, 04:29:25 AM
I agree on all counts and the Barenboim Elgar 2nd
Is at the top of my favorites right now.

+1  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: amw on May 10, 2017, 05:24:43 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 08, 2017, 06:20:09 PM
Perhaps a bit controversial, but this is one of the best 2nd's I've listened to. Top 2 for sure. The synergy between conductor and the Staatskapelle Berlin is great, and Barenboim's interpretation, although could easily be seen as unconventional, I find to successfully explore and deliver a unique offering of how Elgar can be performed. The real challenge here is Barenboim, who in his later age seems to become more adventurous with well-known repertoire (similar to his recent Bruckner 7th with the same group, another one worth checking into), but this adventure works. Elgar's 2nd is a masterpiece, and is filled with many lovely, lyrical and fervent moments, and Barenboim is never afraid to enhance these moments with an extra dynamic or tempo adjustment. I've never heard a final movement quite like this one, its never dull and constantly building and moving towards its goal, ending on a sedated, hushed coda that is a perfect reflection of the previous 50 minutes. I really love this recording.
I used to always look at Sinopoli as my go-to for Elgar's 2nd, his broad approach appealed to me, but now seems quite monotonous in comparison to Barenboim/Berlin. Put it alongside Solti/LPO, Oramo/Stockholm and Barbirolli/Halle and you'll have a great assortment of flavor for this grand piece.



[asin]B00ITUVDZ4[/asin]
I just listened to this and I feel like I somehow "get" the symphony now. Not sure what's unconventional about the interpretation since I don't have much comparison (I have the Hickox cycle, only ever ventured further afield for Norrington's 1st) and I wasn't listening for details, but at least in terms of broader sweep and big picture, this strikes me as a very satisfying reading, probably more so than any other I've heard.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Parsifal on May 10, 2017, 05:57:28 AM
For me the standard for Elgar's second symphony is Barbirolli, but this release has me curious.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Maestro267 on May 20, 2017, 11:31:45 AM
Listening this evening to the Symphony No. 3 (elaborated by Payne). I distinctly remember thinking the first time I heard this (c. 2 years ago) that this is exactly how I imagine an Elgar work in the 1930s would sound, if he had carried on writing large-scale works after the Cello Concerto. Quite extraordinary.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 20, 2017, 12:31:37 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 20, 2017, 11:31:45 AM

Listening this evening to the Symphony No. 3 (elaborated by Payne). I distinctly remember thinking the first time I heard this (c. 2 years ago) that this is exactly how I imagine an Elgar work in the 1930s would sound, if he had carried on writing large-scale works after the Cello Concerto. Quite extraordinary.
Yes, I agree. The third symphony is so "Elgar in the 30's". He DID work on several large compositions at that time, or rather tried to work as a terminally ill man suffering from cancer, but sadly passed away before finishing any of them.  :(




Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 22, 2017, 12:30:44 AM
I listened to the Cello Concerto on Spotify from this set because I was intersted to hear how the stereo reconstruction sounds. I had not heard this performance before. Despite of the very bad sound quality I found the performance great! I have always found this work have a non-Elgarian feel apart from the last moment. This was 100 % Elgar from start to finish! This work is often played so darkly and sadly, but Elgar's music is about the whole spectrum of feelings, you need hope to illustrate despair and joy to contrast sadness. Elgar's playfulness with the already fast tempi made this concerto really work for me. I wonder if there are similar modern performances with good sound?

[asin]B01HO8DUE8[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Moonfish on May 30, 2018, 02:48:50 PM
Elgar:
Sea Pictures
Symphony No. 2 
 
Larissa Avdeyeva     
USSR State Symphony Orchestra
Svetlanov


I stumbled upon a pleasant surprise this afternoon with a Russian perspective of Elgar's Sea Picture as well as Symphony No. 2.  If you are an Elgar fan these are actually well worth listening to. The orchestra is vibrant and the performance is powerful. Perhaps not as nostalgic and thoughtful as I prefer it, but I had a great time regardless. The reviews are certainly mixed at Amazon.uk, but I felt it was a positive experience. Certainly not a replacement for one's favorite recordings, but worthwhile for the different sensations triggered by Svetlanov's forces.

a. Sea Pictures - Great performance, but a bit odd hearing it in Russian. Avdeyeva has a great voice, but it is quite unusual (even unsettling) to hear these works sung in the Russian language. However, the orchestration around her voice is supreme.

b. Symphony No. 2 - Surprisingly, I took a liking for Svetlanov's performance. I didn't quite know what to expect hearing the USSR State SO taking on Elgar's beautiful symphony. The brass (as always) is great and brings thundering crescendos into the stormy parts of the symphony. It is a little fast compared to what I'm used to (Boult in particular), but it is a very enjoyable performance. I wish it was more widely available. I just stumbled upon it in the Svetlanov compilation. Serendipity!

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41HYMCHEX4L.jpg)(https://www.europadisc.co.uk/images/products-190/1455994201_SC501.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on August 28, 2018, 01:09:10 AM
Seems to have been very quiet around these parts, so I thought I'd ramble on a bit about things Elgarish.

Recordings
I haven't bought any Elgar recordings for quite a long time, though I almost pulled the trigger on that box of recordings from Elgar's personal library - this one:

(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/516SxWWBVAL._AC_US218_.jpg)

I notice someone posted about it a while back - I'd be glad of some responses to it. It sounds like the kind of thing I ought to have.

Books
I have, by contrast, kept up more or less with the massive project of publishing Elgar's letters and diaries. There are now several volumes available, including the Windflower letters, his letters to Carice, and three volumes of Diaries taking the story up to 1904, with more to come. They aren't cheap at about £35 each, but of course this is a project that isn't commercially driven, and is unlikely to pay for itself I should think. They're all available for sale here: https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?sortby=0&vci=62926846 (https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?sortby=0&vci=62926846)

Elgar's Birthplace
This has now been taken over by the National Trust. It closed for a while while they rejigged everything, but I understand it has now reopened, complete with teashop. I haven't been there myself since the reopening. It was inevitable - I gather it would have run into serious financial trouble within another year or two if there had been no change in the arrangements. But it's sad to see a place that was unique, and so gloriously idiosyncratic, being absorbed into the great National Trust machine. But better of course to have this, than nothing at all.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on August 28, 2018, 03:08:23 AM
Completely understand the mixed feelings there.  Isabella Stewart Gardner bequeathed her mansion, with all its objets d'art, to the City of Boston with the condition that (basically) they not change anything.  It is only relatively recently that they lit upon the solution of building an adjoining modern wing, which leaves the "home structure" as is.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on August 28, 2018, 04:13:45 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 28, 2018, 03:08:23 AM
Completely understand the mixed feelings there.  Isabella Stewart Gardner bequeathed her mansion, with all its objets d'art, to the City of Boston with the condition that (basically) they not change anything.  It is only relatively recently that they lit upon the solution of building an adjoining modern wing, which leaves the "home structure" as is.

That sounds eminently sensible. The Bronte Parsonage in Haworth has been treated in a similar manner - the parsonage is pretty much unchanged, but a wing has been added to house a shop, etc.

My understanding about the Elgar Birthplace Cottage is that it will remain essentially unchanged, but my concern is that the National Trust casts the same sort of modern 'Heritage' blanket over most of the things it touches. At some point I'll revisit, and report back. But when I think, for example, of the glorious afternoon I spent there copying Elgar's cycling routes from his old maps so I could cycle the same tracks myself ... I suspect such informality may no longer be possible.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on August 28, 2018, 05:38:15 AM
All things must pass.  But we don't have to like it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on August 28, 2018, 06:07:32 AM
Indeed we don't. However, I have a thought. What I did that afternoon a few years ago was to copy Elgar's routes onto a modern reproduction of a Ordnance Survey map of the period, so that all the information on Elgar's original map is on my hand-drawn copy. Should anyone want to go cycling in Elgar's bike tracks, it wouldn't be necessary to seek access to the original maps. Mine is good enough.

Well, here it is, at reduced scale first of all. Routes cycled by Elgar are marked in red.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1855/42515669440_53f6d6db4d_c.jpg)

If this is interesting enough for anyone to want the full size image (which you need, if you want to read the place names etc), it can be downloaded here:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1855/42515669440_6501be0820_o.jpg (https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1855/42515669440_6501be0820_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on August 28, 2018, 06:10:39 AM
Without making an unseemly ruckus, I applaud you.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on August 28, 2018, 06:13:07 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 28, 2018, 06:10:39 AM
Without making an unseemly ruckus, I applaud you.

I  thank you, Sir. I was wondering what that seemly ruckus was that I could hear.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on August 29, 2018, 01:30:46 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on August 28, 2018, 01:09:10 AM
Seems to have been very quiet around these parts,...

Yeah, it has been quiet. Elgar isn't a new exciting obscure composer nor is he Beethoven who people talk about a lot anyway. Elgar falls in between.

Good effort Elgarian. I can't.



Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on August 29, 2018, 02:47:02 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on August 28, 2018, 01:09:10 AM
Books
I have, by contrast, kept up more or less with the massive project of publishing Elgar's letters and diaries. There are now several volumes available, including the Windflower letter, his letters to Carice, and three volumes of Diaries taking the story up to 1904, with more to come. They aren't cheap at about £35 each, but of course this is a project that isn't commercially driven, and is unlikely to pay for itself I should think. They're all available for sale here: https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?sortby=0&vci=62926846 (https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?sortby=0&vci=62926846)

This is something. (He said, keeping the ruckus seemly.)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on August 29, 2018, 02:47:21 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on August 28, 2018, 04:13:45 AM
That sounds eminently sensible. The Bronte Parsonage in Haworth has been treated in a similar manner - the parsonage is pretty much unchanged, but a wing has been added to house a shop, etc.

My understanding about the Elgar Birthplace Cottage is that it will remain essentially unchanged, but my concern is that the National Trust casts the same sort of modern 'Heritage' blanket over most of the things it touches. At some point I'll revisit, and report back. But when I think, for example, of the glorious afternoon I spent there copying Elgar's cycling routes from his old maps so I could cycle the same tracks myself ... I suspect such informality may no longer be possible.

This is just nitpicking really but the comparison between Elgar's birthplace and the Bronte Parsonage Museum isn't exact. After the death of Charlotte's husband the entire contents of the house were dispersed. Over the years The Bronte Society (who own and run the museum) have painstakingly reassembled as much of the original contents as possible. What you see now is the result of years of work (and restoration) not the intact original. I have a feeling the museum is run by volunteers who must be very dedicated.

Not much Elgarian activity here except Gardner's new recording of Symphony No 2 - still not sure about it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on August 29, 2018, 04:09:36 AM
As noted above there has not been much action here recently. I looked back over the last year or so. As there has been no mention of the following piece, I will promote King Olaf. Last year I learned this work, based on a Norse Saga it tells a highly complex story of vikings and their queens and battles. At one point there is the telling of a story within the story about....Norse kings and queens. The story is all but impossible to follow and the choir referred to it as Noggin the Nog, after the kids books.

However during its 90 or so minutes there is a lot of beautiful and stirring music  and I was very happy to have been made to pay attention to it. Of the 150 or so of us, I don't think there was even one who knew the piece. Andrew Davis conducted us and in prep I got his Chandos recording which is excellent and rather more vivid, and in the main better sung, than the Handley. Though Handley does have Teresa Cahill who is always worth seeking out.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on August 29, 2018, 04:32:55 AM
Splendid, Mike.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on August 29, 2018, 04:57:56 AM
Quote from: Biffo on August 29, 2018, 02:47:21 AM
This is just nitpicking really but the comparison between Elgar's birthplace and the Bronte Parsonage Museum isn't exact.
Actually I wasn't making any comparison between them at all. Karl had referred to the attaching of a wing to the Isabella Stuart Gardner house in Boston so as to preserve the mansion itself intact, and I commented incidentally that the added wing at the Bronte Parsonage was a broadly similar sort of solution. There was no implied connection with the Elgar Birthplace.

As far as the interior is concerned there's nothing inherently to be preserved intact in the Elgar Birthplace because (unlike the Brontes at the Parsonage) he didn't live there. Just born there, and in later years was fond of revisiting the place. The interior is just a sort of homely Elgar museum - hugely atmospheric and deeply moving, but not the same sort of thing as the BP.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on August 29, 2018, 05:07:02 AM
Quote from: knight66 on August 29, 2018, 04:09:36 AM
As noted above there has not been much action here recently. I looked back over the last year or so. As there has been no mention of the following piece, I will promote King Olaf. Last year I learned this work, based on a Norse Saga it tells a highly complex story of vikings and their queens and battles. At one point there is the telling of a story within the story about....Norse kings and queens. The story is all but impossible to follow and the choir referred to it as Noggin the Nog, after the kids books.

However during its 90 or so minutes there is a lot of beautiful and stirring music  and I was very happy to have been made to pay attention to it. Of the 150 or so of us, I don't think there was even one who knew the piece. Andrew Davis conducted us and in prep I got his Chandos recording which is excellent and rather more vivid, and in the main better sung, than the Handley. Though Handley does have Teresa Cahill who is always worth seeking out.

Mike

I'm kind of reassured by your comment that you found Olaf hard to follow, Mike. So do I find - I thought there must be something vaguely not-so-bright about me, but now I see that either we are both not-so-bright, or it really is tricky to follow.

I've never really taken to it myself, though I've only had two or three goes at it, mostly (as you note) because of the presence of Ms Cahill in the Handley recording. Sounds like I should try again.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on August 29, 2018, 05:13:18 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 29, 2018, 02:47:02 AM
This is something. (He said, keeping the ruckus seemly.)

You, Sir, are capable of making the seemliest ruckuses of my experience.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on August 29, 2018, 06:13:52 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on August 29, 2018, 04:57:56 AM
Actually I wasn't making any comparison between them at all. Karl had referred to the attaching of a wing to the Isabella Stuart Gardner house in Boston so as to preserve the mansion itself intact, and I commented incidentally that the added wing at the Bronte Parsonage was a broadly similar sort of solution. There was no implied connection with the Elgar Birthplace.

As far as the interior is concerned there's nothing inherently to be preserved intact in the Elgar Birthplace because (unlike the Brontes at the Parsonage) he didn't live there. Just born there, and in later years was fond of revisiting the place. The interior is just a sort of homely Elgar museum - hugely atmospheric and deeply moving, but not the same sort of thing as the BP.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on August 29, 2018, 06:56:42 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on August 29, 2018, 05:07:02 AM
I'm kind of reassured by your comment that you found Olaf hard to follow, Mike. So do I find - I thought there must be something vaguely not-so-bright about me, but now I see that either we are both not-so-bright, or it really is tricky to follow.

I've never really taken to it myself, though I've only had two or three goes at it, mostly (as you note) because of the presence of Ms Cahill in the Handley recording. Sounds like I should try again.

Alan, So good to see you back! It took me a long time to start to get to grips with the piece. I spent months singing about dragons and then the penny dropped, the reference was to the Viking longships with their dragon prows. But now that I have 'got' it I am enjoying it a lot.

Mike

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Klaatu on August 29, 2018, 10:29:17 AM
'King Olaf' may be a little known early work, but it has one claim to fame: it may have been responsible for the career of Havergal Brian.

The young Brian was so bowled over by a performance of 'King Olaf' that he wrote to Elgar asking for advice on an academic musical education..

Elgar's reply, in which he told Brian that he had had to 'get by' without any formal study, was a revelation to the fledgeling composer - if the self-taught Elgar could write 'King Olaf', what might the untutored Brian be capable of?

Thus, 'King Olaf' is partly responsible for one of the longest threads on this forum!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on August 29, 2018, 10:47:06 AM
Quote from: knight66 on August 29, 2018, 04:09:36 AMI got his Chandos recording which is excellent and rather more vivid, and in the main better sung, than the Handley. Though Handley does have Teresa Cahill who is always worth seeking out.

Mike

I have had the Handley for some 20 years. I don't know the Chandos release...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on August 31, 2018, 06:51:01 AM
This recording received a rave review in the latest issue of BBC Music Magazine:

(https://img.discogs.com/tY_zmyMWChocFY2RWhKCrQWws24=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-12249416-1531473368-1359.jpeg.jpg)

Truly an outstanding performance or more of the British press listening with the blinders on?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: knight66 on August 31, 2018, 10:04:55 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on August 29, 2018, 10:29:17 AM
'King Olaf' may be a little known early work, but it has one claim to fame: it may have been responsible for the career of Havergal Brian.

The young Brian was so bowled over by a performance of 'King Olaf' that he wrote to Elgar asking for advice on an academic musical education..

Elgar's reply, in which he told Brian that he had had to 'get by' without any formal study, was a revelation to the fledgeling composer - if the self-taught Elgar could write 'King Olaf', what might the untutored Brian be capable of?

Thus, 'King Olaf' is partly responsible for one of the longest threads on this forum!

What an interesting connection.

King Olaf was very popular when it was first available, then faded away. This kind of Victorian interest in the age of Bards and Nordic myth seemed finally to exhaust itself. There had been a Europe-wide obsession with the Romantic Movemnt springing from ancient sagas. Mehul, Berlioz, Beethoven, Schubert and many others picked up on the work of a non-existant poet called Ossian. In fact these epic poems were not ancient, but invented by James Macpherson in the mid 18th century. Eventually the poems were discovered to be fakes and fashion moved away to find inspiration elsewhere.

Mike
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on September 01, 2018, 04:41:56 AM
Quote from: knight66 on August 31, 2018, 10:04:55 AM
What an interesting connection.

We may never be able to forgive Elgar for this.

(j/k)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on October 08, 2018, 07:03:21 AM
Read an interesting article on the Albanian violinist Alda Dizdari who now based in the UK has become obsessed with the Elgar violin concerto. Now a British citizen, after mastering the concerto she was determined to introduce it to the country of her birth. This she did with concerts in Albania and Romania with local orchestras who in most cases were unaware of the concerto's existence. I thought this of what she said worth quoting: "As a foreigner who's lived here for quite a long time now. I feel about this music in a special way. The old qualities of Britishness are so hard to describe - kindness, nobility, awkwardness, superiority, sense of entitlement, sense of humour and an emotional depth that can be hard to read (the best description of Elgar's music I have come across). Although I've felt at home in this country from day one, and am a British citizen, I know I'll never be British like that. But I love these qualities in Elgar".
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on October 08, 2018, 12:22:53 PM
Quote from: Irons on October 08, 2018, 07:03:21 AM
Read an interesting article on the Albanian violinist Alda Dizdari who now based in the UK has become obsessed with the Elgar violin concerto. Now a British citizen, after mastering the concerto she was determined to introduce it to the country of her birth. This she did with concerts in Albania and Romania with local orchestras who in most cases were unaware of the concerto's existence. I thought this of what she said worth quoting: "As a foreigner who's lived here for quite a long time now. I feel about this music in a special way. The old qualities of Britishness are so hard to describe - kindness, nobility, awkwardness, superiority, sense of entitlement, sense of humour and an emotional depth that can be hard to read (the best description of Elgar's music I have come across). Although I've felt at home in this country from day one, and am a British citizen, I know I'll never be British like that. But I love these qualities in Elgar".

Thanks for this - certainly new to me. That description: "kindness, nobility, awkwardness, superiority, sense of entitlement, sense of humour and an emotional depth that can be hard to read" is a pretty good summary of the uneasy rubbing-together of a wide variety of qualities one finds in Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 13, 2018, 06:09:14 AM
The Crown of India Op. 66, orchestration completion by Anthony Payne
An Imperial Masque in Two Tableux

[asin]B002Q1LJZQ[/asin]
Listened to this yesterday for the first time, both narrated and non-narrated versions (prefer the latter). Payne has done good job here. The orchestration feels Elgarian all the time. So great music here. Beautiful, energetic, ethnic flavors, etc. What not to love? Too bad only Elgarian explore this music, because I'm sure a lot more would like it. But it is what it is, Romanians not knowing about Elgar's Violin Concerto etc.  :-\

The performance is GREAT. Sir Andrew Davis knows how Elgar should sound. Tempi etc. are on point. The recording a bit too dry imo at least for headphones making the soundstage small, but I have to check loudpeakers. Also, the recording isn't particularly bass shy, but on the light side and would benefit from some extra low frequency energy. There's also quite a lot spatial distortion, so headphone listeners need crossfeed to avoid spatial distortion.

I bought this CD used and didn't get the 70 page booklet Chandos luckily offers as a pdf download.  :-X

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 13, 2018, 06:12:42 AM
I should revisit that recording.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: North Star on November 13, 2018, 06:31:06 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 13, 2018, 06:09:14 AM
The Crown of India Op. 66, orchestration completion by Anthony Payne
An Imperial Masque in Two Tableux

Listened to this yesterday for the first time, both narrated and non-narrated versions (prefer the latter). Payne has done good job here. The orchestration feels Elgarian all the time. So great music here. Beautiful, energetic, ethnic flavors, etc. What not to love? Too bad only Elgarian explore this music, because I'm sure a lot more would like it. But it is what it is, Romanians not knowing about Elgar's Violin Concerto etc.  :-\

The performance is GREAT. Sir Andrew Davis knows how Elgar should sound. Tempi etc. are on point. The recording a bit too dry imo at least for headphones making the soundstage small, but I have to check loudpeakers. Also, the recording isn't particularly bass shy, but on the light side and would benefit from some extra low frequency energy. There's also quite a lot spatial distortion, so headphone listeners need crossfeed to avoid spatial distortion.

I bought this CD used and didn't get the 70 page booklet Chandos luckily offers as a pdf download.  :-X
That does look nice. I'm not sure if Romanians in particular are in the dark about Elgar's Violin Concerto, specifically. Do you know Enescu's music, though? ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on November 13, 2018, 06:50:19 AM
Charles Groves recorded a suite of "The Crown of India" in 1971. The suite which Elgar extracted himself to conduct at the Three Choirs Festival in 1912 in five movements is uneven but the true Elgar shines through.

(https://i.imgur.com/oIczZUS.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 13, 2018, 07:37:19 AM
Irons,

Were there any comments about how Elgar's VC was received by the audiences in Albania and Romania?  And any idea when she played them?

Wondering whether or not I might have any recordings of the Crown of India Suite?  Perhaps on a BBCMM disc?

P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 13, 2018, 07:53:36 AM
Quote from: North Star on November 13, 2018, 06:31:06 AM
Do you know Enescu's music, though? ;)

Not much. I have one CD of his Piano Quitet & Piano Quartet No. 2. That's it.  ::)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 13, 2018, 08:36:30 AM
Quote from: Irons on November 13, 2018, 06:50:19 AM
Charles Groves recorded a suite of "The Crown of India" in 1971. The suite which Elgar extracted himself to conduct at the Three Choirs Festival in 1912 in five movements is uneven but the true Elgar shines through.

(https://i.imgur.com/oIczZUS.jpg)

For the Suite I have these:

Scottish National Orchestra / Sir Alexander Gidson / Chandos CHAN 8429
Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra / Sir Charles Groves / EMI

Groves' 1971 recordings has quite bad sound quality. Gibson's is much better of these imo.

The suite was published by Boosey & Hawkes while The complite work was published by Enoch & Sons (which went out of business in the 1920's).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on November 13, 2018, 01:09:58 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 13, 2018, 07:37:19 AM
Irons,

Were there any comments about how Elgar's VC was received by the audiences in Albania and Romania?  And any idea when she played them?

Wondering whether or not I might have any recordings of the Crown of India Suite?  Perhaps on a BBCMM disc?

P

Alda Dizdari has written a book of her relationship of the Elgar VC, P. This link is a bit gushing (she really loves the work) but answers your query.

https://aldadizdari.co.uk/elgar-project/
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 14, 2018, 08:44:54 AM
Thank you Irons.  I'll give it a read later on tonight.  :-)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: JBS on April 26, 2019, 07:50:00 PM
https://medium.com/world-of-music/pergolesis-stabat-mater-the-solution-to-elgar-s-enigma-variations-5f1f7dd2158a
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 26, 2019, 11:48:01 PM
Quote from: JBS on April 26, 2019, 07:50:00 PM
https://medium.com/world-of-music/pergolesis-stabat-mater-the-solution-to-elgar-s-enigma-variations-5f1f7dd2158a

Interesting.... but I'm not convinced.  If on no other grounds than the fact that Pergolesi is no well-known work to the general public.  My guess would always be that the "well-known theme" would be something literally popular.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on April 27, 2019, 02:09:44 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 26, 2019, 11:48:01 PM
Interesting.... but I'm not convinced.  If on no other grounds than the fact that Pergolesi is no well-known work to the general public.  My guess would always be that the "well-known theme" would be something literally popular.

Are you thinking this on 21th century terms? What "popular" music were there 120 years ago to compete with Pergolesi in popularity? You didn't hear Madonna in the shopping mall. You heard Stabat Mater in the church.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on April 27, 2019, 03:03:21 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 27, 2019, 02:09:44 AM
Are you thinking this on 21th century terms? What "popular" music were there 120 years ago to compete with Pergolesi in popularity? You didn't hear Madonna in the shopping mall. You heard Stabat Mater in the church.

If you heard the Stabat mater in a RC church in England it would have been the plainchant version or a hymn version in English, Pergolesi would have been highly unlikely. It might have been a favourite concert work but not in churches.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on April 29, 2019, 10:30:14 AM
Elgar's solo piano music is an interesting little World of itself. It kind of exposes things orchestral Elgar doesn't.

Five Improvisations (1929) - David Owen Norris.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on May 01, 2019, 07:49:44 AM
All sorted then! The "Enigma" theme is derived from Pergolesi's Stabat Mater.

In all seriousness, I have no musical training so cannot follow the technicalities of the musical argument. But the theory that Elgar was shoving Catholicism under the noses of the British upper-classes without them knowing appeals. Also, not the type of music on my radar, Stabat Mater is a lovely piece.

https://thetannhausergate.com/index.php/2019/04/28/a-very-persuasive-identification-of-the-hidden-theme-of-elgars-enigma-variations/
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2019, 10:54:51 AM
Up to Elgar in listening to my British collection - starting w/ the Symphonies, currently own just the two sets below (top), one w/ Andrew Davis purchased about 5 years ago, and the other w/ Previn bought years ago; enjoy both although Previn's second disc has not been well received over the years - some reviews attached for those interested or 'new' to this composer looking for potential recommendations.

For myself, I could easily add another set - of course, much is available - in perusing Amazon USA, the recordings that piqued my interest are newer ones w/ Edward Gardner (excellent reviews in Fanfare), prices are steep there (i.e. $20 USD per CD - slightly cheaper on the Amazon MP) - any comments appreciated - thanks! - Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41HLtPix2-L.jpg)  (https://prodimage.images-bn.com/pimages/0028945425023_p0_v1_s550x406.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81E8cG8SNOL._SL1429_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81OftA6pWiL._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 12, 2019, 12:36:04 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2019, 10:54:51 AM
Up to Elgar in listening to my British collection - starting w/ the Symphonies, currently own just the two sets below (top), one w/ Andrew Davis purchased about 5 years ago, and the other w/ Previn bought years ago; enjoy both although Previn's second disc has not been well received over the years - some reviews attached for those interested or 'new' to this composer looking for potential recommendations.

For myself, I could easily add another set - of course, much is available - in perusing Amazon USA, the recordings that piqued my interest are newer ones w/ Edward Gardner (excellent reviews in Fanfare), prices are steep there (i.e. $20 USD per CD - slightly cheaper on the Amazon MP) - any comments appreciated - thanks! - Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41HLtPix2-L.jpg)  (https://prodimage.images-bn.com/pimages/0028945425023_p0_v1_s550x406.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81E8cG8SNOL._SL1429_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81OftA6pWiL._SL1200_.jpg)

Gardner is a highly respected conductor, Dave, but have you considered Mark Elder's Elgar with the Hallé Orchestra? These get top-marks from myself and many others. In fact, the whole Elder series of Elgar is very much worth your time even though I'm not too fond of the oratorios with The Dream of Gerontius perhaps being my favorite of the three he wrote.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2019, 01:21:21 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 12, 2019, 12:36:04 PM
Gardner is a highly respected conductor, Dave, but have you considered Mark Elder's Elgar with the Hallé Orchestra? These get top-marks from myself and many others. In fact, the whole Elder series of Elgar is very much worth your time even though I'm not too fond of the oratorios with The Dream of Gerontius perhaps being my favorite of the three he wrote.

Hi John - thanks for the prompt comments - I'll certainly take a look at the Elder recordings; the only choral work in my collection is the Apostles which I have not listen to probably in a decade!  Dave :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 12, 2019, 03:22:02 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2019, 01:21:21 PM
Hi John - thanks for the prompt comments - I'll certainly take a look at the Elder recordings; the only choral work in my collection is the Apostles which I have not listen to probably in a decade!  Dave :)

Ah yes, The Apostles. I remember it have some very moving sections, but I find the work overlong and short on material. But some of his best choral music remains, for me, The Music Makers and, of course, The Dream of Gerontius.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 12, 2019, 04:56:13 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2019, 01:21:21 PM
Hi John - thanks for the prompt comments - I'll certainly take a look at the Elder recordings; the only choral work in my collection is the Apostles which I have not listen to probably in a decade!  Dave :)
There is so much good stuff out there. I have quite enjoyed a number of Gerontius recordings. I think I'd ultimately pick the Baker/Barbirolli, but there are numerous good choices here. I've also enjoyed the Music Makers directed by Andrew Davis. I also recommend the songs of Elgar. If you like that sort of thing, there are a few recordings. I have the part-songs with the Finzi singers. It's good, but I have no comparisons here. And a bit less well known are the Wand of Youth Suite. There is an excellent Naxos disc, directed by James Judd.

On the symphonies, I guess it just depends what you want.  If you don't have some of the classics like Boult or Barbirolli, I'd go for one of those over Davis.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 13, 2019, 01:32:40 AM
Maybe it's because I am an Elgarian, but I enjoy Elgar's oratorios tremendously and consider them wonderful. I think The Apostles and The Kingdom are greatly overlooked. I don't get people who say these oratorious are overlong and boring. Are you 15? ADHD? Those quiet calm sections are pure orchestral magic, classical ambient music. Sir Adrian Boult is imo the man when it comes to these works.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 13, 2019, 01:48:57 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 12, 2019, 03:22:02 PM
Ah yes, The Apostles. I remember it have some very moving sections, but I find the work overlong and short on material. But some of his best choral music remains, for me, The Music Makers and, of course, The Dream of Gerontius.

The Music Makers is wonderful, but in it Elgar recycles heavily his own music which makes your post a bit ironic since you also claim The Apostles is short on material for it's length, something I don't agree with.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: aukhawk on May 13, 2019, 02:18:47 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2019, 10:54:51 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41HLtPix2-L.jpg)  (https://prodimage.images-bn.com/pimages/0028945425023_p0_v1_s550x406.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81E8cG8SNOL._SL1429_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81OftA6pWiL._SL1200_.jpg)

I don't know any of the above (and Davis has also recorded the reconstructed 3rd Symphony) and I tend not to look beyond Boult in this music, but for 'something different' I recommend Solti - who startled, then won over, the critics with his Elgar recordings back in the '70s - shortly after Boult's.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81R1CwiKjvL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 13, 2019, 03:10:48 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 13, 2019, 01:32:40 AM
Are you 15? ADHD?

Strong words 71 dB.  For what its worth - I am neither of those but the two oratorios are Elgar's works I listen to least. 

I am currently reading Frank Howes' famous book - "The English Musical Renaissance" [pub. Secker & Warburg 1966].  Writing about The Apostles and The Kingdom Howes says; "The root weakness of the two oratorios is [the] lack of organic unity which Gerontius conspicuously possesses.....they show as many of Elgar's defects as his merits....of these the chief is his uncertain grasp of form.  [The Kingdom has a] text that is both discursive and episodic and worse still does not always make sense.  The concluding chorus of Part I ... topples over the wrong side of the line dividing breadth from banality...."

And so he goes on..... you get my point.  I like these works more that Howes who dismisses quite a long of the music he covers.  But my point is that these works and indeed ALL Elgar divides critics and listeners between genius and mundane (I think certain genius myself....)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on May 13, 2019, 03:31:52 AM
Reflecting on the above postings, I am NOT a fan of -

The oratorios except Gerontius (and then not Britten's recording)

Falstaff (always eluded me)

Payne's Elgar-flavoured symphony

Solti's Elgar symphonies

If that sounds too negative I have multiple recordings of Gerontius, the symphonies and concertos, the other orchestral works, Enigma, Sea Pictures etc

I have just been listening, with great pleasure to the Piano Quintet in E minor (Martin Roscoe and the Brodsky Quartet)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 13, 2019, 03:42:13 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 13, 2019, 03:31:52 AM
Reflecting on the above postings, I am NOT a fan of -

The oratorios except Gerontius (and then not Britten's recording)
Falstaff (always eluded me)
Payne's Elgar-flavoured symphony
Solti's Elgar symphonies

Ah the joy of differing taste! 
Don't like Pears as Gerontius but do like much of Britten's recording
Do like Falstaff
LOVE Paynes' reconstruction of Symphony 3
Really enjoy Solti's vision of the symphonies..... but then like Sinopoli at the other extreme.  Would rather have either than numerous "safe" middle ground versions....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on May 13, 2019, 04:18:47 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 13, 2019, 03:42:13 AM
Ah the joy of differing taste! 
Don't like Pears as Gerontius but do like much of Britten's recording
Do like Falstaff
LOVE Paynes' reconstruction of Symphony 3
Really enjoy Solti's vision of the symphonies..... but then like Sinopoli at the other extreme.  Would rather have either than numerous "safe" middle ground versions....

Thanks for reminding me, don't like Sinopoli (in anything)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 13, 2019, 05:44:54 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 13, 2019, 01:32:40 AMMaybe it's because I am an Elgarian, but I enjoy Elgar's oratorios tremendously and consider them wonderful. I think The Apostles and The Kingdom are greatly overlooked. I don't get people who say these oratorious are overlong and boring. Are you 15? ADHD? Those quiet calm sections are pure orchestral magic, classical ambient music. Sir Adrian Boult is imo the man when it comes to these works.

So anyone who doesn't like the oratorios is 15 yrs. old and has ADHD? How about you learn to accept that other people don't like the same things you do? If you read what I wrote above, you'll see I wrote that I liked The Dream of Gerontius a lot. My criticism was for the other two oratorios: The Apostles and The Kingdom. I don't like Caractacus either (although it's a cantata) nor do I like The Banner of St. George or The Black Knight. For me, the heart of Elgar is in his orchestral and chamber music, but I do absolutely love The Spirit of England.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 13, 2019, 11:47:25 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2019, 10:54:51 AM
Up to Elgar in listening to my British collection - starting w/ the Symphonies, currently own just the two sets below (top), one w/ Andrew Davis purchased about 5 years ago, and the other w/ Previn bought years ago; enjoy both although Previn's second disc has not been well received over the years - some reviews attached for those interested or 'new' to this composer looking for potential recommendations.

For myself, I could easily add another set - of course, much is available - in perusing Amazon USA, the recordings that piqued my interest are newer ones w/ Edward Gardner (excellent reviews in Fanfare), prices are steep there (i.e. $20 USD per CD - slightly cheaper on the Amazon MP) - any comments appreciated - thanks! - Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81E8cG8SNOL._SL1429_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81OftA6pWiL._SL1200_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/516P9854ZAL.jpg)

Well, I've been exploring the reviews & reading the comments here on Elgar's Symphonies for the last 2 days - I'll 'cull out' my 2-CD Previn set and decided to order the 3 CDs above (Boult will replace the Previn March performances) - Edward Gardner's recent recordings were praised uniformly by multiple Fanfare commenters (see attachment, if interested) - NOW, the price issue - ordered off the Amazon MP which saved about $6 and had $23 credit, so the total cost to me for 2 'new' Gardner CDs was $10 only - believe that I'll be happy w/ this deal.  Dave :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 13, 2019, 12:05:24 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 13, 2019, 11:47:25 AM
Well, I've been exploring the reviews & reading the comments here on Elgar's Symphonies for the last 2 days - I'll 'cull out' my 2-CD Previn set and decided to order the 3 CDs above (Boult will replace the Previn March performances) - Edward Gardner's recent recordings were praised uniformly by multiple Fanfare commenters (see attachment, if interested) - NOW, the price issue - ordered off the Amazon MP which saved about $6 and had $23 credit, so the total cost to me for 2 'new' Gardner CDs was $10 only - believe that I'll be happy w/ this deal.  Dave :)
Let us know how it goes! I imagine you will enjoy them all...I certainly hope so...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 13, 2019, 12:28:14 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 13, 2019, 12:05:24 PM
Let us know how it goes! I imagine you will enjoy them all...I certainly hope so...

Thanks Neal - looked at the older recordings, such as Boult, but wanted more 'modern' recordings, and when the reviewers state 'ideal soundstage' and 'spectacular sound', my ears lit up!  ;D  If I'm happy w/ the Boult Enigma Variations & Marches, then may also 'cull out' my Zinman recording of the Variations?  Looking forward to receiving those discs.  Dave :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: aukhawk on May 14, 2019, 12:37:30 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 13, 2019, 11:47:25 AM
... Edward Gardner's recent recordings were praised uniformly by multiple Fanfare commenters (see attachment, if interested) -

To be fair the BBC SO can play this stuff in their sleep.   ;D

Also recommended (for the Elgar, though the rest is decent too).  In the South is a substantial and very worthwhile piece - the 'best of the rest' after the symphonies and concertos in my opinion.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61uSSBRrn%2BL._SX425_.jpg)

The Elgar can be found repackaged in various ways, either in an 'Elgar' set or a 'Silvestri' or 'Bournemouth' set - eg it's part of this compilation

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81CEOoCay9L._SS500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 14, 2019, 01:34:44 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 14, 2019, 12:37:30 AM
To be fair the BBC SO can play this stuff in their sleep.   ;D

Also recommended (for the Elgar, though the rest is decent too).  In the South is a substantial and very worthwhile piece - the 'best of the rest' after the symphonies and concertos in my opinion.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61uSSBRrn%2BL._SX425_.jpg)

The Elgar can be found repackaged in various ways, either in an 'Elgar' set or a 'Silvestri' or 'Bournemouth' set - eg it's part of this compilation

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81CEOoCay9L._SS500_.jpg)

I found Gardener's Elgar to be typical of much of his discography to date; very well engineered and perfectly well performed but really not displacing many if any of the great performances of the past.  And this is not me being simply nostalgic.  He's a case of someone who observes the detail of the score well but somewhere along the line the intuitive emotional insights are lost.  Always glad to hear a good performance of these works but certainly nothing to displace any Desert Island choices..... 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Wanderer on May 14, 2019, 02:47:57 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 13, 2019, 03:31:52 AM
Reflecting on the above postings, I am NOT a fan of -

...

Solti's Elgar symphonies

Solti's Elgar is indeed the worst.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: aukhawk on May 14, 2019, 04:27:13 AM
The sound quality is a bit unfortunate - they desperately need symphathetic remastering.  I like the performances though - a fine antidote to the idiomatic Edwardian stodge as usually served up by Boult et al.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on May 14, 2019, 04:51:34 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 14, 2019, 04:27:13 AM
The sound quality is a bit unfortunate - they desperately need symphathetic remastering.  I like the performances though - a fine antidote to the idiomatic Edwardian stodge as usually served up by Boult et al.

Timings: - Symphony No 1 - Solti (48'43) Boult/Lyrita (48'37)
                Symphony No 2 - Solti (51'22) Boult/Lyrita (51'16)

In No 2 Solti takes off a hectic pace he can't sustain and in the Larghetto slows right down taking over two mins longer than Boult. Boult knew Elgar and knew how to conduct his works.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 14, 2019, 05:45:23 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 14, 2019, 04:27:13 AM
a fine antidote to the idiomatic Edwardian stodge as usually served up by Boult et al.

who are the "et al".  It slightly bugs me that it is so easy to say; "its Solti... so it must be fast and brusque", "its Boult.. it must be 'nobilmente' stodge".  As ever both comments have both elements of truth in them but are also simplistic superficial descriptions of complex interpretations of complex works.  Here's a table of Boult's 3 recordings;

Quote from: aukhawk on May 14, 2019, 04:27:13 AM
a fine antidote to the idiomatic Edwardian stodge as usually served up by Boult et al.

who are the "et al".  It slightly bugs me that it is so easy to say; "its Solti... so it must be fast and brusque", "its Boult.. it must be 'nobilmente' stodge".  As ever both comments have both elements of truth in them but are also simplistic superficial descriptions of complex interpretations of complex works.  Here's a table of Boult's 3 recordings with Gardner's much vaunted versions as comparisons;

Symphony No.1   1950 – HMV   1968 – Lyrita   1976/7 - EMI        Gardner
I.Andante nobilmente     17:55       18:27               18:39                  19:29
II. Allegro moderato       6:55          7:13                  7:13                   7:16
III. Adagio                    12:20       10:26               10:36                  12:15               
IV. Lento-allegro       11:37          12:23               12:07                  12:01

Symphony No.2   1956 – Nixa   1968 – Lyrita   1976/7 - EMI           Gardner
I. Allegro Vivace              16:42         16:30              17:34                   17:44
II. Larghetto              14:25         13:15              14:13                   14:02
III. Rondo Presto           8:03         8:25              8:03                     8:00
IV. Moderato e maestoso  13:08         12:57              13:19                   14:51

For sure timings alone tell a partial story..... but goodness me Mr top of the pile Gardner is slower (stodgier??!!) than Boult in several key movements and when he's not the timings are very close.  So perhaps let's listen to all of Boult (and the "et als") before making unsubstantiated sweeping statements........!!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on May 14, 2019, 06:09:00 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 14, 2019, 05:45:23 AM
who are the "et al".  It slightly bugs me that it is so easy to say; "its Solti... so it must be fast and brusque", "its Boult.. it must be 'nobilmente' stodge".  As ever both comments have both elements of truth in them but are also simplistic superficial descriptions of complex interpretations of complex works.  Here's a table of Boult's 3 recordings;

Symphony No.1   1950 – HMV   1968 – Lyrita   1976/7 - EMI        Gardner
I.Andante nobilmente     17:55       18:27               18:39
II. Allegro moderato     6:55       7:13                7:13
III. Adagio                    12:20       10:26               10:36
IV. Lento-allegro    11:37       12:23               12:07

Symphony No.2   1956 – Nixa   1968 – Lyrita   1976/7 - EMI
I. Allegro Vivace              16:42         16:30              17:34
II. Larghetto              14:25         13:15              14:13
III. Rondo Presto       8:03         8:25              8:03
IV. Moderato e maestoso  13:08         12:57              13:19

I haven't heard the Nixa recordings. Boult's final versions for EMI were his most opulent and this was mentioned in reviews at the time. I no longer have them available for comparison purposes but I always enjoyed them.

Barbirolli, that other Edwardian relic, could be remarkably consistent in some works but in the Elgar Symphonies he was variable in his tempi. In his recording of No 2 from the 1950s his overall timing was more or less the same as Solti and Boult (Lyrita) at 51'36, in his later recording he slowed down to just over 55 min and in one notorious live performance he took over an hour. He preferred Symphony No 1 and could be affectionate in his performances; I have three.

As RS says, these are complex works and timings don't give anything like the whole picture.

Solti takes a lot of flak in some of these online forums but I find him excellent in Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms, Bruckner, Wagner (with reservations), Mahler and Strauss plus other fine recordings. I just don't like his Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 14, 2019, 06:44:49 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 14, 2019, 06:09:00 AM
Boult's final versions for EMI were his most opulent and this was mentioned in reviews at the time.

Solti takes a lot of flak in some of these online forums but I find him excellent in Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms, Bruckner, Wagner (with reservations), Mahler and Strauss plus other fine recordings. I just don't like his Elgar.

Personally I like opulent but then I like swift too (and of course Solti famously said he was following Elgar's own lead in choosing the tempi he did for his recordings).  My point is that the recent critical evaluation of Gardner chose not to use phrases such as opulent or 'end of empire' etc because (I suspect) Gardner happens to be a relatively young conductor.  So it was an easy/trite observation to make of the Boult/EMI recordings just because he was old.

The thing that bugs me is easy generalisations as I mentioned that then become part of the wider discourse.  I'm with you about Solti.  OF COURSE, not everything he did was of equal merit but his best work/recordings were and remain exceptionally fine.  The same is true of "too smooth" Karajan or "Edwardian relic" Boult.  My own bugbear is how every HIP recording is like "striping years of dirt and old varnish off a painting" or "heard with fresh ears".... yeah right.  This is NOT a comment on the quality of the performances in questions or the general validity of HIP - more the lazy/easy critical response to it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on May 14, 2019, 07:31:18 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 14, 2019, 04:51:34 AM

             
Boult knew Elgar and knew how to conduct his works.

Of course he did.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 14, 2019, 07:34:16 AM
Quote from: Irons on May 14, 2019, 07:31:18 AM
Of course he did.

but there's never just one way........
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 14, 2019, 07:45:08 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 14, 2019, 06:09:00 AMSolti takes a lot of flak in some of these online forums but I find him excellent in Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms, Bruckner, Wagner (with reservations), Mahler and Strauss plus other fine recordings. I just don't like his Elgar.

At least we agree about the Elgar.  :laugh:

Every once in a while I come across something of his I like. His Bruckner 6, of all things.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: aukhawk on May 14, 2019, 11:55:15 AM
Did I say there was anything wrong with stodge?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 14, 2019, 12:27:25 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 14, 2019, 11:55:15 AM
Did I say there was anything wrong with stodge?

not a word often associated with praise!  "dull and uninspired material or work" is one online definition........
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 15, 2019, 02:56:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 13, 2019, 05:44:54 AM
So anyone who doesn't like the oratorios is 15 yrs. old and has ADHD?

No, of course not. However if you are 15 and have ADHD you might struggle to enjoy them.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 13, 2019, 05:44:54 AMHow about you learn to accept that other people don't like the same things you do?

I have already learned that many years ago. Do you have a problem with me liking music you don't? Apparently you do.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 13, 2019, 05:44:54 AMIf you read what I wrote above, you'll see I wrote that I liked The Dream of Gerontius a lot.

I know and that's good. I like it too.   0:)

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 13, 2019, 05:44:54 AMMy criticism was for the other two oratorios: The Apostles and The Kingdom.

Yes, and that's where our disagreement starts. To me those two oratorios are even better than The Dream of Gerontius. In my opinion Elgar was still perfecting his craft at this point and reached full maturity around the first Symphony. As fine as The Dream of Gerontius is, I think the two later oratorios demonstrate even deeper level of sophistication, which might be the reason why many seem to struggle enjoying the works. For me, an Elgarian, those works are pure musical heaven and among the best Elgar ever wrote.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 13, 2019, 05:44:54 AMI don't like Caractacus either (although it's a cantata)

Caractacus certainly isn't on the level of the oratorios, but I certainly do like it. Quite a lot. Why wouldn't I? The Light of Life is another Elgar work of this kind I think is overlooked.  There really isn't Elgar I don't like. Maybe the polkas he wrote for Powick Asylum as a young man are something I don't particularly enjoy, but that's it.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 13, 2019, 05:44:54 AMnor do I like The Banner of St. George or The Black Knight.

Then you don't. I enjoy those works a lot. That's what happens when you are an Elgarian.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 13, 2019, 05:44:54 AMFor me, the heart of Elgar is in his orchestral and chamber music, but I do absolutely love The Spirit of England.

Well, I am glad at least whose Elgar works are to your liking.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 15, 2019, 06:43:42 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 15, 2019, 02:56:15 AMI have already learned that many years ago. Do you have a problem with me liking music you don't? Apparently you do.

You're the one who made that asinine analogy about ADHD and being 15 yrs. old just because people here expressed a distaste for those oratorios. If you didn't mean it, then don't say it or if you're joking around about it, then you should learn to use emoticons to indicate that you were joking.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on May 15, 2019, 08:34:28 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 14, 2019, 07:34:16 AM
but there's never just one way........

There is always Barbirolli. :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 15, 2019, 11:06:25 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 15, 2019, 06:43:42 AM
You're the one who made that asinine analogy about ADHD and being 15 yrs. old just because people here expressed a distaste for those oratorios. If you didn't mean it, then don't say it or if you're joking around about it, then you should learn to use emoticons to indicate that you were joking.

People make same same analogy when some says old black and white movies are slow and boring. I believe these oratorios by Elgar contain more thematic material then the Ring tetralogy by Wagner (16 hours of music) and nobody says Wagner is lacking on that front... ... so that's why.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 15, 2019, 11:56:47 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 15, 2019, 11:06:25 AM
People make same same analogy when some says old black and white movies are slow and boring. I believe these oratorios by Elgar contain more thematic material then the Ring tetralogy by Wagner (16 hours of music) and nobody says Wagner is lacking on that front... ... so that's why.

My whole point was that these oratorios aren't for me and I listed the reasons why I thought this was the case. Accept it or don't accept it, because, at this juncture, I couldn't really care.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 15, 2019, 03:04:38 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 15, 2019, 11:56:47 AM
My whole point was that these oratorios aren't for me and I listed the reasons why I thought this was the case. Accept it or don't accept it, because, at this juncture, I couldn't really care.

Of course you should not care whether I "accept" your opinion or not. We simply disagree and that's it. It seems to be a common thing to think about 10 % of Elgar is "good stuff" and the rest 90 % is not good. I disagree. I think many Elgar works are unjustly overlooked, these two oratorios in question being good examples.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 15, 2019, 03:09:03 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 15, 2019, 03:04:38 PM
Of course you should not care whether I "accept" your opinion or not. We simply disagree and that's it. It seems to be a common thing to think about 10 % of Elgar is "good stuff" and the rest 90 % is not good. I disagree. I think many Elgar works are unjustly overlooked, these two oratorios in question being good examples.

The difference here is you're talking to someone who hasn't 'overlooked' anything and has heard almost every nook and cranny from Elgar's oeuvre. As to whether the composer does much for me these days is another topic altogether, but don't mistake me for someone who hasn't heard the music, because I have.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 16, 2019, 02:25:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 15, 2019, 03:09:03 PM
The difference here is you're talking to someone who hasn't 'overlooked' anything and has heard almost every nook and cranny from Elgar's oeuvre. As to whether the composer does much for me these days is another topic altogether, but don't mistake me for someone who hasn't heard the music, because I have.

I didn't think you haven't heard the music. Of course you have.  :) I mean that Elgar seems a composer whose works are strongly divided into the "better ones" and the "lesser ones" and there's this believe that a lot of Elgar works are just "lesser." These works are easily overlooked. When you listen to them you don't get into the music properly. Certainly it is the case that some Elgar works are better than others (like it is with every other composers!) and I enjoy some works more than others, but I nevertheless enjoy pretty much everything Elgar wrote (well, the Powick Asylum polkas perhaps takes a crazy person to enjoy...).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2019, 05:45:33 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 16, 2019, 02:25:48 AM
I didn't think you haven't heard the music. Of course you have.  :) I mean that Elgar seems a composer whose works are strongly divided into the "better ones" and the "lesser ones" and there's this believe that a lot of Elgar works are just "lesser." These works are easily overlooked. When you listen to them you don't get into the music properly. Certainly it is the case that some Elgar works are better than others (like it is with every other composers!) and I enjoy some works more than others, but I nevertheless enjoy pretty much everything Elgar wrote (well, the Powick Asylum polkas perhaps takes a crazy person to enjoy...).

I guess that's where we're different. Even my absolute favorite composers produced works that I do not like (or enjoy as much as others). If I like a piece of music, it means it's reached me, otherwise, it's still floating in space somewhere. Just because I love this or that composer dearly doesn't mean that I'm not going to run across works that I feel aren't inspired or worth hearing again. That's just the way it is.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 16, 2019, 09:00:38 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2019, 05:45:33 AM
I guess that's where we're different. Even my absolute favorite composers produced works that I do not like (or enjoy as much as others). If I like a piece of music, it means it's reached me, otherwise, it's still floating in space somewhere. Just because I love this or that composer dearly doesn't mean that I'm not going to run across works that I feel aren't inspired or worth hearing again. That's just the way it is.

Well, I understand what you say, but I have a hard time finding music I don't like from my favorite composer just as I like every single movie by my favorite director Steven Spielberg. Surely I don't enjoy "Always" nearly as much as "AI - Artificial Intelligence", but I enjoy it anyway.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2019, 07:50:02 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 16, 2019, 09:00:38 AM
Well, I understand what you say, but I have a hard time finding music I don't like from my favorite composer just as I like every single movie by my favorite director Steven Spielberg. Surely I don't enjoy "Always" nearly as much as "AI - Artificial Intelligence", but I enjoy it anyway.

One of the problems I've encountered with listeners, especially ones attached to a specific composer, which, obviously will be Elgar in your case, is that they listen as if blinders were covering their ears. I call this the 'fan syndrome' where one's own judgement or taste is somehow put on hold or reserve because one is simply awestruck by a composer with whom they believe every not the composer wrote to be of the highest quality just because it was they who wrote it. My own case with Elgar is I dislike a lot of his music, especially those Pomp and Circumstance Marches, the afore mentioned oratorios/cantatas, the Cello Concerto (one of the most overrated cello concerti in the mainstream repertoire, IMHO), and several of the miniatures. Debussy is my favorite composer (I have a framed portrait of the composer hanging in my room), but I'm not completely enthralled with everything he composed. I won't launch into specific works, but my point is not every work is worth hearing again and it's completely fine to accept that your favorite composer has some duds in their oeuvre.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kyjo on May 16, 2019, 08:01:55 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2019, 07:50:02 PM
the Cello Concerto (one of the most overrated cello concerti in the mainstream repertoire, IMHO)

I'm with you on this one, John. I'll never quite understand why Elgar's Cello Concerto is done to death while those by Walton, Finzi, Moeran, and countless others are basically no-man's land to most professional cellists. I'm even more ambivalent towards his Violin Concerto, but at least it isn't so overplayed. But, aside from these two concerti, I'm firmly in the pro-Elgar camp. Though, admittedly, I've never heard any of the oratorios (even Gerontius), which divide opinion so sharply.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 16, 2019, 08:06:26 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2019, 07:50:02 PM
One of the problems I've encountered with listeners, especially ones attached to a specific composer, which, obviously will be Elgar in your case, is that they listen as if blinders were covering their ears. I call this the 'fan syndrome' where one's own judgement or taste is somehow put on hold or reserve because one is simply awestruck by a composer with whom they believe every not the composer wrote to be of the highest quality just because it was they who wrote it. My own case with Elgar is I dislike a lot of his music, especially those Pomp and Circumstance Marches, the afore mentioned oratorios/cantatas, the Cello Concerto (one of the most overrated cello concerti in the mainstream repertoire, IMHO), and several of the miniatures. Debussy is my favorite composer (I have a framed portrait of the composer hanging in my room), but I'm not completely enthralled with everything he composed. I won't launch into specific works, but my point is not every work is worth hearing again and it's completely fine to accept that your favorite composer has some duds in their oeuvre.

Not clear to me why someone liking everything their favorite composer wrote is your problem. :)

I've never heard something by Brahms I didn't enjoy at some level, although I've not heard his complete published works.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2019, 08:12:10 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 16, 2019, 08:06:26 PM
Not clear to me why someone liking everything their favorite composer wrote is your problem. :)

I've never heard something by Brahms I didn't enjoy at some level, although I've not heard his complete published works.

Oh, it's not my problem, but what is a problem is how sometimes our infatuation with a composer's music can cloud what we truly hear. This is mainly an observation and is not meant to be taken offense to.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 17, 2019, 03:53:14 AM
Enjoying music is such a problem!  ::) I wish instead of enjoying everything by Elgar I would dislike most of it so I would have less value for my Elgar collection... Jesus...  ???

There is a reason why Elgar is my favorite composer: I love pretty much everything he wrote.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2019, 06:33:41 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 17, 2019, 03:53:14 AM
Enjoying music is such a problem!  ::) I wish instead of enjoying everything by Elgar I would dislike most of it so I would have less value for my Elgar collection... Jesus...  ???

There is a reason why Elgar is my favorite composer: I love pretty much everything he wrote.

Way to miss my point! Thumbs up to you!

(https://media.giphy.com/media/Vmunw0k7q12Ks/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on May 17, 2019, 08:20:39 AM
Quote from: kyjo on May 16, 2019, 08:01:55 PM
I'm with you on this one, John. I'll never quite understand why Elgar's Cello Concerto is done to death while those by Walton, Finzi, Moeran, and countless others are basically no-man's land to most professional cellists. I'm even more ambivalent towards his Violin Concerto, but at least it isn't so overplayed. But, aside from these two concerti, I'm firmly in the pro-Elgar camp. Though, admittedly, I've never heard any of the oratorios (even Gerontius), which divide opinion so sharply.

For one reason in my view. The recording of Elgar's Cello Concerto played by Jacqueline du Pré is iconic. A young attractive girl along with an old gent made a legendary classical recording. Her tragic illness and early death only added to the status and fame of this event. It is true she also recorded the Delius concerto, but it is always the Elgar that Jackie will be known and deservedly so. Too romantic for some listeners, but undoubtable one of the most famous if not the greatest ever classical recordings which has never left the catalogue.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 17, 2019, 01:51:46 PM
Quote from: Irons on May 17, 2019, 08:20:39 AM
For one reason in my view. The recording of Elgar's Cello Concerto played by Jacqueline du Pré is iconic. A young attractive girl along with an old gent made a legendary classical recording. Her tragic illness and early death only added to the status and fame of this event. It is true she also recorded the Delius concerto, but it is always the Elgar that Jackie will be known and deservedly so. Too romantic for some listeners, but undoubtable one of the most famous if not the greatest ever classical recordings which has never left the catalogue.
Who is the "old gent" you are referring to? I don't like Elgar's music but find the Cello Concerto a very fine piece. Of course Du Pre is justly famous for her advocacy of the piece. THere is a youtube video where you can see the kind of feral intensity she brings to the piece. Not the most elegant tone but a nice big sound.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2019, 06:51:56 PM
Quote from: kyjo on May 16, 2019, 08:01:55 PM
I'm with you on this one, John. I'll never quite understand why Elgar's Cello Concerto is done to death while those by Walton, Finzi, Moeran, and countless others are basically no-man's land to most professional cellists. I'm even more ambivalent towards his Violin Concerto, but at least it isn't so overplayed. But, aside from these two concerti, I'm firmly in the pro-Elgar camp. Though, admittedly, I've never heard any of the oratorios (even Gerontius), which divide opinion so sharply.

You're not missing anything by not listening to the oratorios. ;) (Hope 71dB doesn't read this since Elgar can do no wrong in his opinion.) Walton's Cello Concerto deserves more attention than the Elgar. If we're keeping with a British theme, then I agree with you about the Finzi as well. I'm less familiar with the Moeran, but I do like this composer's music a lot. I wouldn't say I'm anti-Elgarian as there are works of his I like very much, but I wouldn't call myself an Elgarian by any stretch of the word. Vaughan Williams and Walton are my favorite Brits.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kyjo on May 18, 2019, 10:52:57 AM
Quote from: Irons on May 17, 2019, 08:20:39 AM
For one reason in my view. The recording of Elgar's Cello Concerto played by Jacqueline du Pré is iconic. A young attractive girl along with an old gent made a legendary classical recording. Her tragic illness and early death only added to the status and fame of this event. It is true she also recorded the Delius concerto, but it is always the Elgar that Jackie will be known and deservedly so. Too romantic for some listeners, but undoubtable one of the most famous if not the greatest ever classical recordings which has never left the catalogue.

Very good point.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 18, 2019, 11:06:40 AM
Quote from: kyjo on May 18, 2019, 10:52:57 AM
Very good point.

not really...... the Du Pre recording was made in the mid 60's.... the Elgar Cello concerto's status was firmly established in the nearly 50 years prior to that.

Walton is one of my most favourite composers... of the 3 string concerti the cello concerto is often cited (I think rightly) as the weakest.  I like it but the Elgar is without a shadow of doubt the finer work.  The Finzi runs neither close.  The disdain mentioned here is as much bound up with its popularity as its quality.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 18, 2019, 01:26:29 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2019, 06:51:56 PM
You're not missing anything by not listening to the oratorios. ;) (Hope 71dB doesn't read this since Elgar can do no wrong in his opinion.) Walton's Cello Concerto deserves more attention than the Elgar. If we're keeping with a British theme, then I agree with you about the Finzi as well. I'm less familiar with the Moeran, but I do like this composer's music a lot. I wouldn't say I'm anti-Elgarian as there are works of his I like very much, but I wouldn't call myself an Elgarian by any stretch of the word. Vaughan Williams and Walton are my favorite Brits.

You are really doing a great service to Elgar. Why are you even here?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 18, 2019, 07:09:48 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 18, 2019, 01:26:29 PM
You are really doing a great service to Elgar. Why are you even here?

For this question, now my purpose here is to annoy the hell out of you. ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 18, 2019, 07:11:32 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 18, 2019, 11:06:40 AM
not really...... the Du Pre recording was made in the mid 60's.... the Elgar Cello concerto's status was firmly established in the nearly 50 years prior to that.

Walton is one of my most favourite composers... of the 3 string concerti the cello concerto is often cited (I think rightly) as the weakest.  I like it but the Elgar is without a shadow of doubt the finer work.  The Finzi runs neither close.  The disdain mentioned here is as much bound up with its popularity as its quality.

Popularity has no bearing on whether I enjoy a work or not. I don't like the piece, because it doesn't move me. It's that simple.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on May 19, 2019, 12:28:36 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 18, 2019, 11:06:40 AM
not really...... the Du Pre recording was made in the mid 60's.... the Elgar Cello concerto's status was firmly established in the nearly 50 years prior to that.

Walton is one of my most favourite composers... of the 3 string concerti the cello concerto is often cited (I think rightly) as the weakest.  I like it but the Elgar is without a shadow of doubt the finer work.  The Finzi runs neither close.  The disdain mentioned here is as much bound up with its popularity as its quality.

We can agree to disagree with the first sentence (Du Pré did a great job of selling this concerto). But you are right with the last. The Elgar CC is too popular for its own good and not only here.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 19, 2019, 02:31:33 AM
Those who love Elgar's music and are rash enough to try to express their love by the printed word write often of its endless fascination. He is one of the of a handful of composers whose music can be likened to a crystal on which the sunlight plays so that its shape, its colours, its intensity, seem constantly to vary. The persistent listener to Elgar will understand this analogy: the notes of the music are fixed, but the listener's reception of them may differ in detail from year to year, even day to day. The music is so alive---it lives, as a critic wrote years ago, in a perpentual change---that it demands that our response should never be stereotyped and fixed but shouldbe as fluid and flexible as the music itself. It is never wise to take up a rigid standpoint on any of thse works: Elgar has a way of still taking us by surprise. One almost hears his voice saying: "You've never noticed that before, have you? But I put it there on purpose for someone to discover". The two works concerning which it is particularly hazardous to take up prepared positions are The Apostles and The Kingdom.

Michael Kennedy, 1974
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When I explored Elgar's works 20+ years ago and heard his Cello Concerto I found it a bit underwhelming ("not mindblowing" for a major Elgar work), but it was the Maria Kliegel Naxos disc. Only several years later did I buy and hear the Jacqueline du Pre and understood better the fame of the Work, but I still consider the Violin Concerto better.


Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: aukhawk on May 19, 2019, 03:50:10 AM
So do I like the Violin Concerto the better, but I think they are both very fine works that any virtuoso of the instrument would aspire to.

That Kennedy quote is sheer fanboyism by the way - the same could be said of any well-regarded composer of large-scale music operating after about 1830.  The only thing is it implies opportunities for repeated listening (ie via recordings) which is something Elgar would have been aware of and could somehow anticipate in his writing - but that latter seems a bit far-fetched to me.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on May 20, 2019, 12:04:40 AM
I would not like to choose. The violin concerto has enjoyed greater advocacy down the years. From the premiere recording with boy Menuhin and Elgar himself and the first performance, again with the composer and Kreisler. Also international "stars" for example Heifetz  made recordings. The lineage of the Cello Concerto until du Pré is not up to that level, Casals did record the work but I have not heard it.

Rostropovich was asked why he never played the Elgar, he replied "My pupil Jacqueline du Pré, played it much better then I".   
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 20, 2019, 01:48:54 AM
Quote from: Irons on May 20, 2019, 12:04:40 AM
I would not like to choose. The violin concerto has enjoyed greater advocacy down the years. From the premiere recording with boy Menuhin and Elgar himself and the first performance, again with the composer and Kreisler. Also international "stars" for example Heifetz  made recordings. The lineage of the Cello Concerto until du Pré is not up to that level, Casals did record the work but I have not heard it.

Rostropovich was asked why he never played the Elgar, he replied "My pupil Jacqueline du Pré, played it much better then I".

According to Wiki this is the pre-Du Pre discography......

Beatrice Harrison   London Symphony Orchestra   Sir Edward Elgar   HMV   1928
W H Squire   Hallé Orchestra   Sir Hamilton Harty   Columbia   1930
Pablo Casals   BBC Symphony Orchestra   Sir Adrian Boult   EMI   1945
Anthony Pini   London Philharmonic Orchestra   Eduard van Beinum   Decca   1950
Paul Tortelier   BBC Symphony Orchestra   Sir Malcolm Sargent   EMI   1954
André Navarra   Hallé Orchestra   Sir John Barbirolli   Pye   1957
Mstislav Rostropovich   Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra   Natan Rakhlin   Revelation   1958[2]
Mstislav Rostropovich   Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra   Gennadi Rozhdestvensky   Russiandisc   1964[3]

which includes 2 (non studio) by Rostropovitch.... I assume he meant he didn't play it after Du Pre recorded it.  The Casals is technically pretty ropey........
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on May 20, 2019, 02:24:05 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 20, 2019, 01:48:54 AM
According to Wiki this is the pre-Du Pre discography......

Beatrice Harrison   London Symphony Orchestra   Sir Edward Elgar   HMV   1928
W H Squire   Hallé Orchestra   Sir Hamilton Harty   Columbia   1930
Pablo Casals   BBC Symphony Orchestra   Sir Adrian Boult   EMI   1945
Anthony Pini   London Philharmonic Orchestra   Eduard van Beinum   Decca   1950
Paul Tortelier   BBC Symphony Orchestra   Sir Malcolm Sargent   EMI   1954
André Navarra   Hallé Orchestra   Sir John Barbirolli   Pye   1957
Mstislav Rostropovich   Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra   Natan Rakhlin   Revelation   1958[2]
Mstislav Rostropovich   Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra   Gennadi Rozhdestvensky   Russiandisc   1964[3]

Navarra/Barbirolli is my favourite though I have it on the Testament label

which includes 2 (non studio) by Rostropovitch.... I assume he meant he didn't play it after Du Pre recorded it.  The Casals is technically pretty ropey........
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on May 20, 2019, 07:00:40 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 20, 2019, 01:48:54 AM
According to Wiki this is the pre-Du Pre discography......

Beatrice Harrison   London Symphony Orchestra   Sir Edward Elgar   HMV   1928
W H Squire   Hallé Orchestra   Sir Hamilton Harty   Columbia   1930
Pablo Casals   BBC Symphony Orchestra   Sir Adrian Boult   EMI   1945
Anthony Pini   London Philharmonic Orchestra   Eduard van Beinum   Decca   1950
Paul Tortelier   BBC Symphony Orchestra   Sir Malcolm Sargent   EMI   1954
André Navarra   Hallé Orchestra   Sir John Barbirolli   Pye   1957
Mstislav Rostropovich   Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra   Natan Rakhlin   Revelation   1958[2]
Mstislav Rostropovich   Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra   Gennadi Rozhdestvensky   Russiandisc   1964[3]

which includes 2 (non studio) by Rostropovitch.... I assume he meant he didn't play it after Du Pre recorded it.  The Casals is technically pretty ropey........

I was going to mention the Pini recording as it is very good. Tortelier recorded it again with Boult which was I think around the same time, or just after du Pré.

(https://img.discogs.com/aqE-dFrK5AgNcxXHjf2oOg4p_6M=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-6968184-1440586167-9894.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on May 20, 2019, 07:24:48 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 18, 2019, 11:06:40 AM
not really...... the Du Pre recording was made in the mid 60's.... the Elgar Cello concerto's status was firmly established in the nearly 50 years prior to that.

Walton is one of my most favourite composers... of the 3 string concerti the cello concerto is often cited (I think rightly) as the weakest.  I like it but the Elgar is without a shadow of doubt the finer work.  The Finzi runs neither close.  The disdain mentioned here is as much bound up with its popularity as its quality.

A good reason as any to journey through British cello concertos. I commenced last night with the Walton, a bit like comparing apples with oranges but yes, the Elgar without a doubt the finer concerto. Piatigorsky, the dedicatee, gives a committed account and the recording from the "golden age" RCA is superb. I intend to follow up with Moeran and Finzi.

(https://img.discogs.com/N5mctEM6njTRf0AlbRsQ3d_eNY4=/fit-in/600x597/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2145104-1266442864.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on November 11, 2019, 12:50:49 PM
From the WAYLT thread:

Quote
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514CTZDJHTL.jpg)

Elgar's late oratorios were intended as the first two installments of a trilogy, but he abandoned the project after composing The Kingdom. He wanted The Apostles and The Kingdom to be played/heard on two consecutive days, or even on the same day, one in the afternoon, the other in the evening. They share many leitmotives, with a few new ones appearing in The Kingdom. And some characters appear in both (Mary, Mary Magdalene, Peter, John). Jesus and Judas appear only in The Apostles.

It took me many years to warm up to the beauty and subtlety of these works. The Dream of Gerontius in comparison has a more gripping story, with a very dramatic score. The music of the late oratorios is more contemplative, ecstatic, the pain and sorrow, the rapture and the elation not experienced 'in the flesh' as in Gerontius, but in the tranquillity of the soul.

Compared to the seminal recording of the work (Boult on EMI, 1974), the 1990 Chandos recording boasts a very wide dynamic range, beautiful playing and singing  and a slightly more direct manner. Not that this is plain in the wrong sense, but there's no denying the perfection of Boult's conception, his absolute mastery of tempi, of the ebb and flow of the piece. The 85 year old conductor takes 121 minutes to Hickox' 126, a small difference to be sure, but still an indication of a sligtly more flowing pace. It's swings and roundabouts when it comes to the soloists. I prefer Boult's John and Mary, Hickox' Judas and Peter. The Jesuses and Mary Magdalenes are equal - both superb. The last tableau (the Ascension) under Hickox is overwhelming in its power, a true cathartic ending to the work. The recording quality does make a difference here.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 11, 2019, 01:29:45 PM
Imo The Apostles and The Kingdom are among the best works Elgar ever wrote and I think appreciation of these works indicates understanding of the genius he was.

Compared to Gerontius these are sadly overlooked works, but it is what it is. Elgar is in no way the only composer with overlooked gems.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 11, 2019, 01:35:37 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 11, 2019, 01:29:45 PM
Imo The Apostles and The Kingdom are among the best works Elgar ever wrote and I think appreciation of these works indicates understanding of the genius he was.

Compared to Gerontius these are sadly overlooked works, but it is what it is. Elgar is in no way the only composer with overlooked gems.

I don't think much of The Apostles or The Kingdom but this doesn't mean I don't appreciate or understand how good his music is or could be. There are some good moments in both of those works, but, FWIW, I'm not really too fond of The Dream of Gerontius either. For me, it is Symphony No. 2, the Violin Sonata, Enigma Variations, Violin Concerto, The Music-Makers, Sea Pictures, and The Spirit of England that demonstrate his remarkable, singular compositional style and encapsulate the spirit of man himself.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on November 12, 2019, 01:38:00 AM
Andrè is very persuasive in his advocacy of The Apostles, he almost persuaded me but not enough. I heard the work many years ago conducted by Rozhdestvensky and remember mostly enjoying it. What put me off (and still does) was the 'oratorio' diction. Elgar told his publisher he didn't want Gerontius described as a 'sacred oratorio', he was writing something new. He was but then relapsed into the clichéd oratorio style for The Apostles and The Kingdom.

After the live performance I bought the Boult recordings of The Apostles and The Kingdom and listened to them just once. I have never felt drawn to try them again until the fairly recent issue of the Elder recording of The Apostles. It received so much glowing praise that I decided to try the Boult recording again to see if I got on any better with the work; I didn't, I barely lasted 30 minutes. However good the music I can't get past the text and its delivery.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 12, 2019, 02:26:36 AM
Quote from: Biffo on November 12, 2019, 01:38:00 AM
Andrè is very persuasive in his advocacy of The Apostles, he almost persuaded me but not enough. I heard the work many years ago conducted by Rozhdestvensky and remember mostly enjoying it. What put me off (and still does) was the 'oratorio' diction. Elgar told his publisher he didn't want Gerontius described as a 'sacred oratorio', he was writing something new. He was but then relapsed into the clichéd oratorio style for The Apostles and The Kingdom.

After the live performance I bought the Boult recordings of The Apostles and The Kingdom and listened to them just once. I have never felt drawn to try them again until the fairly recent issue of the Elder recording of The Apostles. It received so much glowing praise that I decided to try the Boult recording again to see if I got on any better with the work; I didn't, I barely lasted 30 minutes. However good the music I can't get past the text and its delivery.

Biffo - I must admit that you put into words almost exactly my own reaction to these works.  I always feel a bit guilty that I don't like these works more (Boult's words that they are the very finest of Elgar ring in my ears) but there it is.  Perhaps one of these days it will "click" but I do have a nagging feeling that by the time Elgar wrote these works the 'grand oratorio' was a fading tradition.  I struggle with Schmidt's "Book of the 7 Seals" for much the same reason, likewise Dyson's Quo Vadis......

(I did rankle a bit at a previous post that implied you can't REALLY like/appreciate/understand Elgar unless you love these works!)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on November 12, 2019, 03:00:42 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 12, 2019, 02:26:36 AM
Biffo - I must admit that you put into words almost exactly my own reaction to these works.  I always feel a bit guilty that I don't like these works more (Boult's words that they are the very finest of Elgar ring in my ears) but there it is.  Perhaps one of these days it will "click" but I do have a nagging feeling that by the time Elgar wrote these works the 'grand oratorio' was a fading tradition.  I struggle with Schmidt's "Book of the 7 Seals" for much the same reason, likewise Dyson's Quo Vadis......

(I did rankle a bit at a previous post that implied you can't REALLY like/appreciate/understand Elgar unless you love these works!)

I can't really say I like any of Elgar's choral works and I have given most of them a try.  I read fairly recently the opinion (can't remember whose) that Elgar was our greatest writer of orchestral music but had to spend his time writing oratorios because he had to earn a living and oratorios still dominated the British musical scene. From what I can remember from Jerrold Northrop Moore's biography Elgar didn't see it that way. Almost to the end of his life he was promising friends and his publisher the third part of his trilogy. I can't say I am disappointed he never even started it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 12, 2019, 03:12:01 AM
Quote from: Biffo on November 12, 2019, 03:00:42 AM
I can't really say I like any of Elgar's choral works and I have given most of them a try.  I read fairly recently the opinion (can't remember whose) that Elgar was our greatest writer of orchestral music but had to spend his time writing oratorios because he had to earn a living and oratorios still dominated the British musical scene. From what I can remember from Jerrold Northrop Moore's biography Elgar didn't see it that way. Almost to the end of his life he was promising friends and his publisher the third part of his trilogy. I can't say I am disappointed he never even started it.

Spirit of England is for me one of the GREAT choral works - power and concision as well as an highly emotive subject.  I like the Coronation Ode as well.  Doesn't outstay its welcome - fantastic open "Crown the King" and personally, in its original context, I find the setting of Land of Hope and Glory impressive.  The latter just suffers from too many post-Empire associations which I understand but don't bother me.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on November 12, 2019, 03:28:48 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 12, 2019, 03:12:01 AM
Spirit of England is for me one of the GREAT choral works - power and concision as well as an highly emotive subject.  I like the Coronation Ode as well.  Doesn't outstay its welcome - fantastic open "Crown the King" and personally, in its original context, I find the setting of Land of Hope and Glory impressive.  The latter just suffers from too many post-Empire associations which I understand but don't bother me.

Perhaps I will have to give The Spirit of England another try - I have the Hickox recording.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on November 12, 2019, 04:47:42 AM
Quote from: Biffo on November 12, 2019, 03:00:42 AM
I can't really say I like any of Elgar's choral works and I have given most of them a try.  I read fairly recently the opinion (can't remember whose) that Elgar was our greatest writer of orchestral music but had to spend his time writing oratorios because he had to earn a living and oratorios still dominated the British musical scene. From what I can remember from Jerrold Northrop Moore's biography Elgar didn't see it that way. Almost to the end of his life he was promising friends and his publisher the third part of his trilogy. I can't say I am disappointed he never even started it.

In 1926, Elgar told VW that he stopped trying to compose the third part after having heard Sancta Civitas. « You did it for me », he said.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on November 12, 2019, 05:24:12 AM
Quote from: André on November 12, 2019, 04:47:42 AM
In 1926, Elgar told VW that he stopped trying to compose the third part after having heard Sancta Civitas. « You did it for me », he said.

It was very kind of Elgar to say that but by 1926 he had almost given up composing.  There was a late burst of activity but it didn't lead to any significant completed works. I can't help thinking that Elgar's projected work would have been more of the same (Apostles, Kingdom) rather than like RVW's compact treatment of the subject.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 12, 2019, 08:04:22 AM
Quote from: Biffo on November 12, 2019, 03:00:42 AM
I can't really say I like any of Elgar's choral works and I have given most of them a try.  I read fairly recently the opinion (can't remember whose) that Elgar was our greatest writer of orchestral music but had to spend his time writing oratorios because he had to earn a living and oratorios still dominated the British musical scene. From what I can remember from Jerrold Northrop Moore's biography Elgar didn't see it that way. Almost to the end of his life he was promising friends and his publisher the third part of his trilogy. I can't say I am disappointed he never even started it.

I think he's an incredible composer of orchestral music, but his chamber music was just as inspired and I do wish he composed more of it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 12, 2019, 09:50:02 AM
I feel I am the only person alive in the World who thinks The Apostles and The Kingdom are incredible works. So much mystical "shimmering" quiet music and when the music gets loud my socks are spinning in my feet!  ;D

Somehow some music speaks to us while other music doesn't. For example, I get hardly anything from Janácek's Glagolitic Mass...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 12, 2019, 10:05:59 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 12, 2019, 09:50:02 AM
I feel I am the only person alive in the World who thinks The Apostles and The Kingdom are incredible works. So much mystical "shimmering" quiet music and when the music gets loud my socks are spinning in my feet!  ;D

Somehow some music speaks to us while other music doesn't. For example, I get hardly anything from Janácek's Glagolitic Mass...

That's interesting as I think Janáček's Glagolitic Mass is better than any choral work Elgar wrote. :) Oh, and as evidenced here, you're not the only person in the world who likes Elgar's oratorios. I don't like them because I think they're overlong and much of the musical material isn't memorable. We're all different and life's too short to worry about other people disliking music that we enjoy.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Herman on November 12, 2019, 11:24:25 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 12, 2019, 08:04:22 AM
I think he's an incredible composer of orchestral music, but his chamber music was just as inspired and I do wish he composed more of it.

I love the violin sonata.
What's next, in terms of good chamber music?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 12, 2019, 11:29:28 AM
Quote from: Herman on November 12, 2019, 11:24:25 AM
I love the violin sonata.
What's next, in terms of good chamber music?

Assuming you mean by Elgar - you ain't got much choice!  He wrote the 3 works; Violin Sonata/Piano Quintet/String Quartet with adjacent Opus Nos 82-84 with the Cello Concerto Op.85.  Anything else for chamber type ensembles is early/functional.  The rest of the violin and piano repertoire is very attractive but nothing with the scale or emotional sweep of the Sonata
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 12, 2019, 11:38:07 AM
Quote from: Herman on November 12, 2019, 11:24:25 AM
I love the violin sonata.
What's next, in terms of good chamber music?

Definitely the Pf Quintet, I should say.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: SymphonicAddict on November 12, 2019, 12:19:40 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 12, 2019, 11:38:07 AM
Definitely the Pf Quintet, I should say.

+1, an impressive work!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: SymphonicAddict on November 12, 2019, 12:21:48 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 12, 2019, 10:05:59 AM
That's interesting as I think Janáček's Glagolitic Mass is better than any choral work Elgar wrote. :) Oh, and as evidenced here, you're not the only person in the world who likes Elgar's oratorios. I don't like them because I think they're overlong and much of the musical material isn't memorable. We're all different and life's too short to worry about other people disliking music that we enjoy.

I agree about the Janacek. It's more interesting by far and has more 'personality' than many other choral works by Elgar IMO.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 12, 2019, 12:53:24 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on November 12, 2019, 12:21:48 PM
I agree about the Janacek. It's more interesting by far and has more 'personality' than many other choral works by Elgar IMO.

Can only nod my head in agreement, although I do have a special affinity for The Spirit of England.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 12, 2019, 01:15:45 PM
Quote from: Herman on November 12, 2019, 11:24:25 AM
I love the violin sonata.
What's next, in terms of good chamber music?

There's only three works total: the sonata, String Quartet, and Piano Quintet. They're all worth your time.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 12, 2019, 01:19:47 PM
I generally love his music, but his chamber is less interesting to me than the choral stuff (and don't forget the part songs, which are little gems). But of all the choral works, the two that people seem to be forgetting is the Black Knight and the Music Makers (which are just fabulous). I listen to them most of all (as well as some of the part songs). The only Elgar piece I cannot listen to is Pomp and Circumstance, and that is because I played one part of it so often at graduations (you just kept playing it in circles as graduates collected their diploma).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on November 12, 2019, 01:24:42 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 12, 2019, 03:12:01 AM
Spirit of England is for me one of the GREAT choral works - power and concision as well as an highly emotive subject.

I've banged on so much about Spirit of England earlier in this thread that it could be argued that enough is enough. But I'd just like to reaffirm the opinion I've held for many, many years, that I regard it not just as his finest choral work, but one of his greatest works of any kind. Given the character of Elgar, and the subject matter, one might expect it to be mawkish in parts. It isn't. Not even slightly. Furthermore, if you don't have the Alexander Gibson recording, with Teresa Cahill singing the soprano part, then I recommend you to drop what you're doing immediately, and get one.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on November 12, 2019, 01:28:05 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 12, 2019, 01:19:47 PM
I generally love his music, but his chamber is less interesting to me than the choral stuff (and don't forget the part songs, which are little gems). But of all the choral works, the two that people seem to be forgetting is the Black Knight and the Music Makers (which are just fabulous). I listen to them most of all (as well as some of the part songs). The only Elgar piece I cannot listen to is Pomp and Circumstance, and that is because I played one part of it so often at graduations (you just kept playing it in circles as graduates collected their diploma).
There is of course Caractacus as well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 12, 2019, 01:50:35 PM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 12, 2019, 01:24:42 PM
I've banged on so much about Spirit of England earlier in this thread that it could be argued that enough is enough. But I'd just like to reaffirm the opinion I've held for many, many years, that I regard it not just as his finest choral work, but one of his greatest works of any kind. Given the character of Elgar, and the subject matter, one might expect it to be mawkish in parts. It isn't. Not even slightly. Furthermore, if you don't have the Alexander Gibson recording, with Teresa Cahill singing the soprano part, then I recommend you to drop what you're doing immediately, and get one.

Your praise is musically justified.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 12, 2019, 02:21:36 PM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 12, 2019, 01:24:42 PM
I've banged on so much about Spirit of England earlier in this thread that it could be argued that enough is enough. But I'd just like to reaffirm the opinion I've held for many, many years, that I regard it not just as his finest choral work, but one of his greatest works of any kind. Given the character of Elgar, and the subject matter, one might expect it to be mawkish in parts. It isn't. Not even slightly. Furthermore, if you don't have the Alexander Gibson recording, with Teresa Cahill singing the soprano part, then I recommend you to drop what you're doing immediately, and get one.

+1 for Teresa Cahill - I think the resonance of the Church recording venue adds to the atmosphere of the work too.  I MUCH prefer the use of a soprano exclusively - a tenor here seems just wrong!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 12, 2019, 02:37:22 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 12, 2019, 01:19:47 PM
I generally love his music, but his chamber is less interesting to me than the choral stuff (and don't forget the part songs, which are little gems). But of all the choral works, the two that people seem to be forgetting is the Black Knight and the Music Makers (which are just fabulous). I listen to them most of all (as well as some of the part songs). The only Elgar piece I cannot listen to is Pomp and Circumstance, and that is because I played one part of it so often at graduations (you just kept playing it in circles as graduates collected their diploma).

No love for the Violin Sonata? For me, I think it's one of his most personal musical utterances.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 12, 2019, 07:23:15 PM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 12, 2019, 01:28:05 PM
There is of course Caractacus as well.
Touche!

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 12, 2019, 07:42:22 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 12, 2019, 07:23:15 PM
Touche!

Also there's The Banner of St. George, The Light of Life, and King Olaf.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on November 13, 2019, 01:24:19 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 12, 2019, 07:42:22 PM
Also there's The Banner of St. George, The Light of Life, and King Olaf.

Indeed there is (are?). I confess, despite Elgar's music having been flowing warmly in my blood for more than 50 years, that there are some of these choral works that I've never much enjoyed, and Spirit of England is the only one that has ever set me uncontrollably on fire. True, I have greatly enjoyed Caractacus - try playing its finale at sunset at the top of the Herfordshire Beacon in the Malverns, when the Imperialism of it seems more noble and understandable than at other times and places. But I find it best enjoyed in instalments, rather than in a single sitting. I attended a live performance of Caractacus at Worcester Cathedral in 2011 and despite my deep desire to enjoy it, and the powerful sense of occasion (Three Choirs Festival) I found much of it a slog.

And yet, and yet ... I've several times stayed in a cottage tucked away on the west side of the Malverns, overlooking Birchwood, the house where Elgar composed much of Caractacus, and listening to the woodland passages of the music while contemplating that view, I've experienced a unique magical stirring of the senses that is specifically Caractacusian. That 'woodland' feeling that he succeeds in conveying here makes an interesting  extra-musical link with the chamber music, which was also inspired by the woodland surrounding him when he was composing that, in Sussex, much later.

I have a period sheet music publication of Banner of St George which has a fun cover ...

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49058292823_f8c71b227b_w.jpg)

... though I like the cover more than I like the music.

I am of course quite incapable of judging whether the music in any of these cases  is fundamentally any good - I can only talk about the way I respond to it. So this post may be more about me than about Elgar. Or maybe it's about a composite creature: 'Elgar and Me'.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 13, 2019, 02:15:26 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 13, 2019, 01:24:19 AM
Indeed there is (are?). I confess, despite Elgar's music having been flowing warmly in my blood for more than 50 years, that there are some of these choral works that I've never much enjoyed, and Spirit of England is the only one that has ever set me uncontrollably on fire. True, I have greatly enjoyed Caractacus - try playing its finale at sunset at the top of the Herfordshire Beacon in the Malverns, when the Imperialism of it seems more noble and understandable than at other times and places. But I find it best enjoyed in instalments, rather than in a single sitting. I attended a live performance of Caractacus at Worcester Cathedral in 2011 and despite my deep desire to enjoy it, and the powerful sense of occasion (Three Choirs Festival) I found much of it a slog.

And yet, and yet ... I've several times stayed in a cottage tucked away on the west side of the Malverns, overlooking Birchwood, the house where Elgar composed much of Caractacus, and listening to the woodland passages of the music while contemplating that view, I've experienced a unique magical stirring of the senses that is specifically Caractacusian. That 'woodland' feeling that he succeeds in conveying here makes an interesting  extra-musical link with the chamber music, which was also inspired by the woodland surrounding him when he was composing that, in Sussex, much later.

I have a period sheet music publication of Banner of St George which has a fun cover ...

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49058292823_f8c71b227b_w.jpg)

... though I like the cover more than I like the music.

I am of course quite incapable of judging whether the music in any of these cases  is fundamentally any good - I can only talk about the way I respond to it. So this post may be more about me than about Elgar. Or maybe it's about a composite creature: 'Elgar and Me'.

What a GREAT post!  I really enjoyed reading it and agree/empathise with everything you write.  In this part of the thread you have not mentioned "The Music Makers" which I seem to remember Michael Kennedy in his quite brilliant "Portrait of Elgar" counts are one of a triptych of key works - the other 2 being the violin concerto and the 2nd Symphony.  I must admit my response to Music Makers has always been stunning passages but not wonderful as a whole.  Of the bigger/longer choral works Gerontius remains my favourite simply because when the music blazes it really blazes.

Recently we went up the Worcestershire Beacon in the Malverns (I think you calling it the Herefordshire Beacon is a typo?) - impossible not to be inspired by the place/view - I'm sure you know this famous picture of Moeran with his wife Peers Coetmore there;

(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19.0;attach=18998;image)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on November 13, 2019, 03:36:20 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 13, 2019, 02:15:26 AM
Recently we went up the Worcestershire Beacon in the Malverns (I think you calling it the Herefordshire Beacon is a typo?)

No it's not a typo. There are two beacons. The one you show is the Worcestershire Beacon, and yes, it is utterly magnificent.

But just a few miles further south along the Malvern ridge, and very different in character, is the Herefordshire Beacon, with its wonderfully atmospheric Iron Age camp at the top. It was this that inspired the idea of Caractacus. I think I'm right in remembering that Dora Penny discussed it with him while out walking (or cycling) with Elgar, on an occasion while the camp was in view. Here's a photo I took of it about 10 years ago, looking north (you can see the Worcester Beacon, where you were, to the right of the camp, in the distance):

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49058710013_93b996b25b_z.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 13, 2019, 04:40:11 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 13, 2019, 03:36:20 AM
No it's not a typo. There are two beacons. The one you show is the Worcestershire Beacon, and yes, it is utterly magnificent.

But just a few miles further south along the Malvern ridge, and very different in character, is the Herefordshire Beacon, with its wonderfully atmospheric Iron Age camp at the top. It was this that inspired the idea of Caractacus. I think I'm right in remembering that Dora Penny discussed it with him while out walking (or cycling) with Elgar, on an occasion while the camp was in view. Here's a photo I took of it about 10 years ago, looking north (you can see the Worcester Beacon, where you were, to the right of the camp, in the distance):

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49058710013_93b996b25b_z.jpg)

Aah!  As my ignorance shows I've never been up the Herefordshire beacon - what a great photograph - thankyou for posting.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 13, 2019, 05:27:30 AM
I think no other composer has as much "I don't like this and that work" than Elgar. It's depressing and one of the reasons I don't want to participate much. I love pretty much everything Elgar wrote and I don't understand why other people don't. I just don't understand. I don't.
SO I am alone with my opinions and I don't care anymore. 20 years ago I tried to make people like Elgar. What delusional waste of time. Go listen to your Janacek if that's yout thing!! Even Elgarian Redux says he doesn't like The Banner of St George! What's wrong with you? It's a fine work. So tired of being alone with my views!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on November 13, 2019, 05:39:18 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 13, 2019, 02:15:26 AM
In this part of the thread you have not mentioned "The Music Makers" which I seem to remember Michael Kennedy in his quite brilliant "Portrait of Elgar" counts are one of a triptych of key works - the other 2 being the violin concerto and the 2nd Symphony.  I must admit my response to Music Makers has always been stunning passages but not wonderful as a whole.

It's a while since I read Kennedy's book, and I don't remember much about it, but I'd query the validity of his triptych of 'key works'. One can see the importance of the Music Makers to Elgar himself, because it's almost like a retrospective musical exhibition with an overarching personal message, but like you, I find I prefer to listen to it in bits, rather than the whole. I certainly think the violin concerto would be an essential member of a 'key trio' (if it exists, which I doubt) - it springs from the essence of Elgar's struggle with his private and public personae, as is his deeply felt sense of the eternal feminine. But I can't see, myself, why the 2nd symphony would demand inclusion, instead of the chamber music (equally coming from somewhere deep within Elgar himself). I suppose it all depends on what one regards as the essential criterion for being a 'key work', and I suspect there are as many of those as there are potential compilers of such trios.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 13, 2019, 05:43:26 AM
I've only just got around to listening to the Third Symphony yesterday. Still mulling it over.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 13, 2019, 05:49:06 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 13, 2019, 01:24:19 AM
Indeed there is (are?). I confess, despite Elgar's music having been flowing warmly in my blood for more than 50 years, that there are some of these choral works that I've never much enjoyed, and Spirit of England is the only one that has ever set me uncontrollably on fire. True, I have greatly enjoyed Caractacus - try playing its finale at sunset at the top of the Herfordshire Beacon in the Malverns, when the Imperialism of it seems more noble and understandable than at other times and places. But I find it best enjoyed in instalments, rather than in a single sitting. I attended a live performance of Caractacus at Worcester Cathedral in 2011 and despite my deep desire to enjoy it, and the powerful sense of occasion (Three Choirs Festival) I found much of it a slog.

And yet, and yet ... I've several times stayed in a cottage tucked away on the west side of the Malverns, overlooking Birchwood, the house where Elgar composed much of Caractacus, and listening to the woodland passages of the music while contemplating that view, I've experienced a unique magical stirring of the senses that is specifically Caractacusian. That 'woodland' feeling that he succeeds in conveying here makes an interesting  extra-musical link with the chamber music, which was also inspired by the woodland surrounding him when he was composing that, in Sussex, much later.

I have a period sheet music publication of Banner of St George which has a fun cover ...

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49058292823_f8c71b227b_w.jpg)

... though I like the cover more than I like the music.

I am of course quite incapable of judging whether the music in any of these cases  is fundamentally any good - I can only talk about the way I respond to it. So this post may be more about me than about Elgar. Or maybe it's about a composite creature: 'Elgar and Me'.

Thanks for this post, Elgarian. I appreciate your honesty and we certainly share similar views, especially of The Spirit of England, which is one of my favorites from Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 13, 2019, 05:49:50 AM
"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves."
― Carl Gustav Jung

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
― Fyodor Dostoevsky
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 13, 2019, 05:51:51 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 13, 2019, 05:49:50 AM
"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves."
― Carl Gustav Jung

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
― Fyodor Dostoevsky

Nice!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on November 13, 2019, 05:55:20 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 13, 2019, 05:27:30 AM
I think no other composer has as much "I don't like this and that work" than Elgar. It's depressing and one of the reasons I don't want to participate much. I love pretty much everything Elgar wrote and I don't understand why other people don't. I just don't understand. I don't.
SO I am alone with my opinions and I don't care anymore. 20 years ago I tried to make people like Elgar. What delusional waste of time. Go listen to your Janacek if that's yout thing!! Even Elgarian Redux says he doesn't like The Banner of St George! What's wrong with you? It's a fine work. So tired of being alone with my views!

Oh come on, there's no need to be rude about it. There are many things wrong with me, but I don't think my lack of interest in The Banner of St George is one of them. (To be accurate, I don't actively dislike it. I just don't want to listen to it much. I love most of Elgar's music so much that the few that elude me don't bother me.)

If you have truly seen your mission as trying 'to make people like Elgar', I'm not at all surprised that you've discovered it to be a waste of time. I'd object to being 'made to like' anything, frankly.

All any of us can ever do is say 'this is how I see it'. There are no absolutes, even (I might say especially) where Elgar is concerned. Don't try to make converts. It's not a religion.  Just tell us how you see it, and grant us the right of either agreeing or disagreeing with you. Frankly, if you object to me, of all people, saying what I think - for I have loved the man's music since I was 16 years old - then I'd say you're very unlikely to get any positive responses at all.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on November 13, 2019, 06:01:28 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 13, 2019, 05:49:50 AM
"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves."
― Carl Gustav Jung

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
― Fyodor Dostoevsky

In all these years you've never irritated me, and so I protest at your attempt to stifle the advancement of my self-understanding.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 13, 2019, 06:07:09 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 13, 2019, 06:01:28 AM
In all these years you've never irritated me, and so I protest at your attempt to stifle the advancement of my self-understanding.

Well, well, we cannot all contribute to advancement, can we?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 13, 2019, 06:12:23 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 13, 2019, 05:27:30 AM
I think no other composer has as much "I don't like this and that work" than Elgar. It's depressing and one of the reasons I don't want to participate much. I love pretty much everything Elgar wrote and I don't understand why other people don't. I just don't understand. I don't.
SO I am alone with my opinions and I don't care anymore. 20 years ago I tried to make people like Elgar. What delusional waste of time. Go listen to your Janacek if that's yout thing!! Even Elgarian Redux says he doesn't like The Banner of St George! What's wrong with you? It's a fine work. So tired of being alone with my views!

Sibelius is one of my absolute favorite composers and I've had a love affair with his music for more than 10 years now. But guess what? I don't like everything he composed and why should I? Just because it's Sibelius? There's nothing wrong with making recommendations to someone, but don't expect anyone to be on the same page you are, because that's just not going to happen. It's simply the reality of the matter. I'm so tired of you making posts like this because you do nothing but embarrass yourself in the end. Stop being such a drama queen and accept that there are people that will never share your same interests but, please bear in mind, I do love a good bit of Elgar's music, but I don't like everything he wrote and anyone who has a discerning ear would be of a similar opinion I'm sure. Elgarian Redux is a case in point and look how long he's been a fan of his music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 13, 2019, 06:13:06 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 13, 2019, 06:01:28 AM
In all these years you've never irritated me, and so I protest at your attempt to stifle the advancement of my self-understanding.
I am well and truly rebuked! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 13, 2019, 06:22:56 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 13, 2019, 05:27:30 AM
I think no other composer has as much "I don't like this and that work" than Elgar. It's depressing and one of the reasons I don't want to participate much. I love pretty much everything Elgar wrote and I don't understand why other people don't. I just don't understand. I don't.
SO I am alone with my opinions and I don't care anymore. 20 years ago I tried to make people like Elgar. What delusional waste of time. Go listen to your Janacek if that's yout thing!! Even Elgarian Redux says he doesn't like The Banner of St George! What's wrong with you? It's a fine work. So tired of being alone with my views!

IF Elgar is more prone to cherry-picking than other composers by listeners I would suspect that that is simply because a lot of the music he had to write had a direct commercial/financial imperative.  Not for him the luxury of dashing off another symphony when the whim took him like the financially secure Bax (whose music I love).  So - as mentioned elsewhere - not only do the Oratorios fulfill the Musico/Social role but widened Elgar's fame and paid a reasonably good commission.  Likewise the Salon music - which I think is quite beautiful - but was only written to generate a fee.  Part of Elgar's great genius for me is just how personal and beautiful is exactly this music that was written to order.  But others might perceive these written-to-order works as of a lower "value".

Elgar is absolutely one of my favourite composers - and I would like everyone else to share my passion too - but I also understand what it is in this music that others do not respond to.  So ultimately it doesn't bother me whether others like it or not.  Being upset that folk are not exactly aligned to one's own views and opinions is a sure way to become VERY upset...... ALL of the time!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 13, 2019, 06:27:33 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 13, 2019, 05:43:26 AM
I've only just got around to listening to the Third Symphony yesterday. Still mulling it over.

Let us know your thoughts once mulling has been completed!  I must admit I like it a lot.  I went to the premiere at the Festival Hall in London and it was a very special occasion.  It felt a bit odd - almost a time warp - to be at the premiere of one of the great British composers.  And not just some little fragment - a big serious work.  I think Anthony Payne has done a great job and it does not worry me quite where Elgar ends and Payne begins......
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DaveF on November 13, 2019, 06:35:38 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 13, 2019, 02:15:26 AM
Recently we went up the Worcestershire Beacon in the Malverns (I think you calling it the Herefordshire Beacon is a typo?) - impossible not to be inspired by the place/view

There are both - a Worcestershire and a Herefordshire Beacon, I mean - although the latter is almost always known (apart from to the Ordnance Survey, apparently) as "British Camp".  Good views from both, needless to say, although British Camp is a shorter walk from a good pub (the Malvern Hills, at the top of the Ledbury road).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 13, 2019, 07:02:15 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 13, 2019, 06:13:06 AM
I am well and truly rebuked! :)

You are such a good sport!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on November 13, 2019, 08:03:59 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 13, 2019, 06:22:56 AM
IF Elgar is more prone to cherry-picking than other composers by listeners I would suspect that that is simply because a lot of the music he had to write had a direct commercial/financial imperative.  Not for him the luxury of dashing off another symphony when the whim took him like the financially secure Bax (whose music I love).  So - as mentioned elsewhere - not only do the Oratorios fulfill the Musico/Social role but widened Elgar's fame and paid a reasonably good commission.  Likewise the Salon music - which I think is quite beautiful - but was only written to generate a fee.  Part of Elgar's great genius for me is just how personal and beautiful is exactly this music that was written to order.  But others might perceive these written-to-order works as of a lower "value".

Your comments remind me that one of Elgar's early ambitions was to become so famous that a letter addressed to 'Edward Elgar, England' would reach him. He was a paradoxical character (but then, aren't we all?), with all these hopes pulling him in different directions. And I very much like your perceptive comment that the music written to order was often personal and beautiful at the same time.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 13, 2019, 08:35:45 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 13, 2019, 08:03:59 AM
Your comments remind me that one of Elgar's early ambitions was to become so famous that a letter addressed to 'Edward Elgar, England' would reach him. He was a paradoxical character (but then, aren't we all?), with all these hopes pulling him in different directions. And I very much like your perceptive comment that the music written to order was often personal and beautiful at the same time.

Yes!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 13, 2019, 09:41:06 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 13, 2019, 05:55:20 AM
Oh come on, there's no need to be rude about it. There are many things wrong with me, but I don't think my lack of interest in The Banner of St George is one of them. (To be accurate, I don't actively dislike it. I just don't want to listen to it much. I love most of Elgar's music so much that the few that elude me don't bother me.)

If you have truly seen your mission as trying 'to make people like Elgar', I'm not at all surprised that you've discovered it to be a waste of time. I'd object to being 'made to like' anything, frankly.

All any of us can ever do is say 'this is how I see it'. There are no absolutes, even (I might say especially) where Elgar is concerned. Don't try to make converts. It's not a religion.  Just tell us how you see it, and grant us the right of either agreeing or disagreeing with you. Frankly, if you object to me, of all people, saying what I think - for I have loved the man's music since I was 16 years old - then I'd say you're very unlikely to get any positive responses at all.

Ok, but somehow I feel Elgar's thread is about what works one dislikes rather than likes. Maybe I misunderstood you and others here. I am suffering from extreme frustration* in my life so I probably react too strongly.

* political threads here and crossfeed thread on head-fi forum.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 13, 2019, 09:51:40 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 13, 2019, 09:41:06 AM
Ok, but somehow I feel Elgar's thread is about what works one dislikes rather than likes. Maybe I misunderstood you and others here. I am suffering from extreme frustration* in my life so I probably react too strongly.

* political threads here and crossfeed thread on head-fi forum.

To the bolded text: yet you still frequent them after they get you so upset. I'm sorry, but it's your own fault that you continue to walk in that mine field.

As for as liking/disliking Elgar works and talking about them, well...this is what a composer thread is all about. I think it's better to discuss works that we like, but there's no harm in mentioning works that don't like as this stimulates conversation just as much as rattling off favorite works and why we love them.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 13, 2019, 11:59:12 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2019, 09:51:40 AM
To the bolded text: yet you still frequent them after they get you so upset. I'm sorry, but it's your own fault that you continue to walk in that mine field.

That's part of the frustration. Very rarely do people tell me I am doing something right. Why am I this way? I wish life was a bit easier so that even people like me who are not supertalented would do some things right. Instead I have to watch while supertalented people like you yourself do everything right and don't even walk on mine fields.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 13, 2019, 12:17:05 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2019, 09:51:40 AMAs for as liking/disliking Elgar works and talking about them, well...this is what a composer thread is all about. I think it's better to discuss works that we like, but there's no harm in mentioning works that don't like as this stimulates conversation just as much as rattling off favorite works and why we love them.

All I can say is that I seem to enjoy Elgar's works more broadly than even other fans of Elgar. To me Elgar's music just has this feel of being "correct." I am constantly surprised how much people "struggle" with Elgar. If they like something, it has often taken years to appreciate. People complain about the text of Elgar's Oratorios. I don't even pay attention to the text. I listen to the music. Singing is an instrument for me, not a source of text. Maybe that's why I don't struggle?

The polkas Elgar wrote for Powick Asylum in his early 20's are a bit tedious even for me...  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 13, 2019, 12:40:00 PM
There is this DG release with Elgar's Soliloquy for Oboe and Orchestra (Orch. by Gordon Jacob), a work I have never head before, but just listened to on Spotify.
It's a nice orchestral miniature (4:19).

[asin]B07PL9PY5G[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on November 13, 2019, 12:41:55 PM
I have no problem with the texts of the oratorios (they are certainly no worse than Wagner's own librettos). The composer was moved to write of his finest music on them. They are of their time. Today's listener needs to set his internal clock back 100 years to appreciate the work as Elgar conceived it. Anyone with a sense of the passing of time can do that.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on November 13, 2019, 12:59:45 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 13, 2019, 12:17:05 PM
The polkas Elgar wrote for Powick Asylum in his early 20's are a bit tedious even for me...  ;D

Tedious!? Tedious?!! I never thought to hear such words from you about a piece of music by Elgar ...

Yes, I jest of course. But seriously, I think I often find my lack of response to certain music puzzling, and sometimes I've found that expressing that puzzlement in a discussion can lead to very positive results (eg the amazing discussion of the 7th symphony in the Sibelius thread). I try not to say I 'dislike ' something, because really liking and disliking are more to do with cheese, or gooseberry pie, than art. My point is that here I am, owing this vast debt to Edward Elgar who has enriched my life more than any other composer, and yet there are aspects of his work that seem beyond my appreciation. I can't help it. On the whole I find this about all artists - however much their art overwhelms me, I always have some blind spots.

But also, just as I have limitations as a listener, many artists are unequal: their work is not always the best they are capable of - not because they are rubbish, but because they are human. Works like The Spirit of England and the Violin Concerto represent pinnacles of achievement that Elgar couldn't always maintain. That's hardly surprising, since I, as a listener, am similarly imperfect. Sometimes I can follow the composer up to the heights; other times I can't. I've no idea whose 'fault' that is - if fault there be.

Finally, let me be clear. I am totally incapable of assessing whether any given piece of music is good or bad in any objective sense. I don't know what those words mean in regard to music. I can usually tell when a piece is very good (eg the violin concerto), because it could not possibly be bad AND work such magic as I  experience when I listen to it, but I'd much prefer to discuss the nature of the experience than argue about whether the music is 'good' or 'bad'. I mean, one knows what one knows. Savoir has its value, but connaitre is surely what it's really all about. You decide whether whisky is good by tasting it, not by reading books about it (however interesting that may be); and when you're tasting it, you may have a different experience of it than others. That's not morally reprehensible. I reserve the right to fail to appreciate some art and some music, not because I wish to insist on the badness of it, but because my receptive abilities are imperfect.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 13, 2019, 01:19:20 PM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 13, 2019, 12:59:45 PM
Tedious!? Tedious?!! I never thought to hear such words from you about a piece of music by Elgar ...

Yes, I jest of course. But seriously, I think I often find my lack of response to certain music puzzling, and sometimes I've found that expressing that puzzlement in a discussion can lead to very positive results (eg the amazing discussion of the 7th symphony in the Sibelius thread). I try not to say I 'dislike ' something, because really liking and disliking are more to do with cheese, or gooseberry pie, than art. My point is that here I am, owing this vast debt to Edward Elgar who has enriched my life more than any other composer, and yet there are aspects of his work that seem beyond my appreciation. I can't help it. On the whole I find this about all artists - however much their art overwhelms me, I always have some blind spots.

But also, just as I have limitations as a listener, many artists are unequal: their work is not always the best they are capable of - not because they are rubbish, but because they are human. Works like The Spirit of England and the Violin Concerto represent pinnacles of achievement that Elgar couldn't always maintain. That's hardly surprising, since I, as a listener, am similarly imperfect. Sometimes I can follow the composer up to the heights; other times I can't. I've no idea whose 'fault' that is - if fault there be.

Finally, let me be clear. I am totally incapable of assessing whether any given piece of music is good or bad in any objective sense. I don't know what those words mean in regard to music. I can usually tell when a piece is very good (eg the violin concerto), because it could not possibly be bad AND work such magic as I  experience when I listen to it, but I'd much prefer to discuss the nature of the experience than argue about whether the music is 'good' or 'bad'. I mean, one knows what one knows. Savoir has its value, but connaitre is surely what it's really all about. You decide whether whisky is good by tasting it, not by reading books about it (however interesting that may be); and when you're tasting it, you may have a different experience of it than others. That's not morally reprehensible. I reserve the right to fail to appreciate some art and some music, not because I wish to insist on the badness of it, but because my receptive abilities are imperfect.



This was wonderful.

And I like it!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on November 13, 2019, 01:28:01 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 13, 2019, 01:19:20 PM
This was wonderful.

And I like it!

Here you are, old fellow - try some gooseberry pie.

[Chortle ...]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 13, 2019, 01:38:57 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 13, 2019, 11:59:12 AM
That's part of the frustration. Very rarely do people tell me I am doing something right. Why am I this way? I wish life was a bit easier so that even people like me who are not supertalented would do some things right. Instead I have to watch while supertalented people like you yourself do everything right and don't even walk on mine fields.

Okay, now you're being rather ludicrous! I am not 'super-talented' nor do I do everything right. My point is that you get upset over things that are out of your control and you get even more upset over things that you could simply turn away from because it has been proven that it only elevates your blood pressure. You're an engineer for goodness sakes! You went to university and have interacted with some incredibly intelligent people. You have no reason to feel inadequate about anything. I think your main problem is your constant self-doubt. You also seem to have a low tolerance for differing opinions. Oh and I don't walk in mine fields because I know how to choose my battles and arguing with people about something as irrelevant to me like politics does me no favors at all. And it's not like I can't talk about politics, but the fact that I don't worry about things that are out of my control, keeps me mentally and physically in-check and I can enjoy my life for it is. My only hope is you can do the same.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 13, 2019, 01:44:41 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 13, 2019, 12:17:05 PM
All I can say is that I seem to enjoy Elgar's works more broadly than even other fans of Elgar. To me Elgar's music just has this feel of being "correct." I am constantly surprised how much people "struggle" with Elgar. If they like something, it has often taken years to appreciate. People complain about the text of Elgar's Oratorios. I don't even pay attention to the text. I listen to the music. Singing is an instrument for me, not a source of text. Maybe that's why I don't struggle?

The polkas Elgar wrote for Powick Asylum in his early 20's are a bit tedious even for me...  ;D

Well, we know my reason for not liking Elgar's oratorios. If you enjoy them, that's great, but, as I have said, there are moments in them that I do enjoy, but the whole does not equal the sum of its parts, IMHO. I don't pay much attention to the text either and just listen to how the voice was written and how it conveys an emotion in conjunction with what the music is doing. The music, of course, has to take me somewhere and I feel there are too many snags in Elgar's oratorios for me to enjoy them in their entirety.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on November 13, 2019, 02:13:17 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 13, 2019, 01:19:20 PM
This was wonderful.

And I like it!

+1
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on November 14, 2019, 12:37:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2019, 01:44:41 PM
I feel there are too many snags in Elgar's oratorios for me to enjoy them in their entirety.

I can't give the exact reference, and my memory may be imperfect, but I recall reading about an interview with Elgar in which he expressed great disappointment with The Kingdom, and said it gave him no pleasure to hear it because its deficiencies filled him with 'shame and sorrow'. If the composer himself sometimes felt like this about his work, it doesn't seem absurd if we do, too.

Mind you, Elgar was not a simple chap, and around the time of writing Kingdom he was experiencing severe religious doubt. (Isn't there a story somewhere about him conducting it and bursting into tears?) So I think we can't know exactly what the cause of his reservations might have been.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 14, 2019, 03:52:57 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 14, 2019, 12:37:36 AM
I can't give the exact reference, and my memory may be imperfect, but I recall reading about an interview with Elgar in which he expressed great disappointment with The Kingdom, and said it gave him no pleasure to hear it because its deficiencies filled him with 'shame and sorrow'. If the composer himself sometimes felt like this about his work, it doesn't seem absurd if we do, too.

Mind you, Elgar was not a simple chap, and around the time of writing Kingdom he was experiencing severe religious doubt. (Isn't there a story somewhere about him conducting it and bursting into tears?) So I think we can't know exactly what the cause of his reservations might have been.

Of course, I am no Elgar scholar, so all this is news to me. Very touching.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 14, 2019, 04:36:29 AM
Think a lot of Elgar works got subpar premier performances...  :P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on November 14, 2019, 05:15:42 AM
Just listened to The Black Knight - Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra & Liverpool Philharmonic Choir conducted by Sir Charles Groves. It would be unfair to draw too many conclusions about Elgar choral works from this early piece (1889-93). It is a hybrid symphony-cantata and Elgar stressed the importance of the orchestral part. I found it fairly enjoyable but not very memorable with the tragic Scene IV the best part (for me).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on November 14, 2019, 05:21:40 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 14, 2019, 04:36:29 AM
Think a lot of Elgar works got subpar premier performances...  :P

Gerontius certainly did but subsequent performances in Germany were a triumph. After the successful first performance of King Olaf, Elgar went to his mother, lay his head in her lap and told her he couldn't bear the exposure which such success brought - another example of Elgar's troubled nature.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: relm1 on November 14, 2019, 05:41:41 AM
Must confess, I've never heard Elgar's Symphony No. 3.  Worth giving it a try?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2019, 06:24:04 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 14, 2019, 12:37:36 AM
I can't give the exact reference, and my memory may be imperfect, but I recall reading about an interview with Elgar in which he expressed great disappointment with The Kingdom, and said it gave him no pleasure to hear it because its deficiencies filled him with 'shame and sorrow'. If the composer himself sometimes felt like this about his work, it doesn't seem absurd if we do, too.

Mind you, Elgar was not a simple chap, and around the time of writing Kingdom he was experiencing severe religious doubt. (Isn't there a story somewhere about him conducting it and bursting into tears?) So I think we can't know exactly what the cause of his reservations might have been.

I don't really know what to say other than thanks for the information --- quite interesting.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on November 14, 2019, 06:41:13 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 14, 2019, 05:41:41 AM
Must confess, I've never heard Elgar's Symphony No. 3.  Worth giving it a try?

In my experience of this and other forums there are two schools of thought - me and everyone else. I would say no but don't really want to discuss it again.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2019, 06:43:12 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 14, 2019, 05:41:41 AM
Must confess, I've never heard Elgar's Symphony No. 3.  Worth giving it a try?

I wouldn't waste your time, but if you truly wanted to hear it, then there's really no need to ask any of us whether you should listen to it or not.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on November 14, 2019, 06:44:57 AM
Quote from: Biffo on November 14, 2019, 06:41:13 AM
In my experience of this and other forums there are two schools of thought - me and everyone else. I would say no but don't really want to discuss it again.

I tend to agree with you. It's an interesting piece of work, but clearly watered down stuff compared to the real articles (meaning his peak orchestral works: the concertos, symphonies, Variations, Falstaff, In the South...).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 14, 2019, 06:49:04 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 14, 2019, 05:41:41 AM
Must confess, I've never heard Elgar's Symphony No. 3.  Worth giving it a try?
I think it depends on your expectations. You can sample it on youtube to get an idea of the work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: aukhawk on November 14, 2019, 07:12:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 14, 2019, 06:43:12 AM
I wouldn't waste your time, but if you truly wanted to hear it, then there's really no need to ask any of us whether you should listen to it or not.

Well it's 50 minutes of your life you'll never get back.  That's why it's reasonable to ask around whether it's worth while.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2019, 07:50:17 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 14, 2019, 07:12:31 AM
Well it's 50 minutes of your life you'll never get back.  That's why it's reasonable to ask around whether it's worth while.

True, but my point is that if someone wants to hear something, then they should just go ahead and listen to. If anything, just listen to the first movement and then if you like it, proceed to the next. There's a lot of things in our lives that could be viewed as time wasters. That's just a part of life and there's plenty of pieces of music which I'll never want to hear again, but, at the very least, I'm glad I made the effort.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 14, 2019, 10:26:11 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 13, 2019, 05:43:26 AM
I've only just got around to listening to the Third Symphony yesterday. Still mulling it over.

Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 13, 2019, 06:27:33 AM
Let us know your thoughts once mulling has been completed!  I must admit I like it a lot.  I went to the premiere at the Festival Hall in London and it was a very special occasion.  It felt a bit odd - almost a time warp - to be at the premiere of one of the great British composers.  And not just some little fragment - a big serious work.  I think Anthony Payne has done a great job and it does not worry me quite where Elgar ends and Payne begins......

The lack of worry is exactly where my ears are. I did enjoy it, and expect to enjoy it again.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on November 14, 2019, 10:33:14 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 14, 2019, 05:41:41 AM
Must confess, I've never heard Elgar's Symphony No. 3.  Worth giving it a try?

I think it's great - very moving. I love they way that Payne uses 'The Waggon Passes' from the 'Nursery Suite' for the conclusion of the reconstructed symphony. So a big yes from me.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 14, 2019, 10:33:21 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 14, 2019, 05:41:41 AM
Must confess, I've never heard Elgar's Symphony No. 3.  Worth giving it a try?

Quote from: aukhawk on November 14, 2019, 07:12:31 AM
Well it's 50 minutes of your life you'll never get back.  That's why it's reasonable to ask around whether it's worth while.

I found it a good expenditure of 50 minutes. Per  André's point, it may be that, had Elgar realized the full symphony himself, it might have been a bit more trim.  But I think Payne's service outweighs any flaws of execution.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on November 14, 2019, 10:54:31 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 14, 2019, 10:33:21 AM
I found it a good expenditure of 50 minutes. Per  André's point, it may be that, had Elgar realized the full symphony himself, it might have been a bit more trim.  But I think Payne's service outweighs any flaws of execution.

Actually I think it might have been beefed up a bit, in terms of filling up middle voices, orchestration etc. The composition is fully fleshed, but on the skinny side.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 14, 2019, 12:51:11 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 14, 2019, 10:33:14 AM
I think it's great - very moving[...]So a big yes from me.

A yes from me too. I re-heard it this afternoon and confirmed my initial impression of the Symphony (formed many years ago) that it is a worthy addition- And yes, a moving experience to hear a semblance of Elgar's final thoughts.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 14, 2019, 10:33:21 AM
I found it a good expenditure of 50 minutes.

Indeed, especially for we Elgarians (there's more than one here, although none quite like Redux and the Finnish fanatic  ;) ).

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: relm1 on November 14, 2019, 04:30:48 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 14, 2019, 10:33:14 AM
I think it's great - very moving. I love they way that Payne uses 'The Waggon Passes' from the 'Nursery Suite' for the conclusion of the reconstructed symphony. So a big yes from me.

I find us to be like minded so I should hear it.  I loved the Piano Concerto which I believe was similarly posthumous.  Any participial performance you suggest?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 14, 2019, 04:59:05 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 14, 2019, 04:30:48 PM
I loved the Piano Concerto which I believe was similarly posthumous.  Any participial performance you suggest?

The Piano Concerto Op. 90 reconstruction by Robert Walker is nice, but the Third Symphony, Op. 88 elaboration is imo clearly better work.

I have these two performances and both of them are imo very fine. Naxos has softer "silky" sound while NMC has "edgy" sound. Both can be found at low price I believe.

[asin]B00004RC80[/asin]

[asin]B00002687K[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on November 14, 2019, 09:26:46 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 14, 2019, 04:30:48 PM
I find us to be like minded so I should hear it.  I loved the Piano Concerto which I believe was similarly posthumous.  Any participial performance you suggest?

I like the Andrew Davis (pictured above) and Hickox versions in particular but I have enjoyed other recordings as well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on November 15, 2019, 01:08:56 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 14, 2019, 12:51:11 PM
A yes from me too. I re-heard it this afternoon and confirmed my initial impression of the Symphony (formed many years ago) that it is a worthy addition- And yes, a moving experience to hear a semblance of Elgar's final thoughts.

I find that too. It requires a certain kind of mindset to listen to it, knowing its reconstructed nature, but it's immensely valuable as an indicator of what Elgar had in mind. Anecdote coming up:

I was in Malvern, attending a concert some years ago, when the Elgar Society used the occasion to present Anthony Payne with a Gold Medal recognising his work on the 3rd symphony. At the interval I saw him standing alone in the bar. I dithered for a moment, wondering whether it would be intrusive to approach him; but then I walked up to him, shook his hand, thanked him for all his work, and walked away - the whole encounter taking maybe 10-15 seconds.

QuoteIndeed, especially for we Elgarians (there's more than one here, although none quite like Redux and the Finnish fanatic  ;) ).

Maybe less committed these days, Sarge. I've decided not to renew my membership of the Elgar Society at the end of the year.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 15, 2019, 01:17:18 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 15, 2019, 01:08:56 AMI've decided not to renew my membership of the Elgar Society at the end of the year.

Time for new nickname? Elgarian Reduced?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 15, 2019, 01:30:33 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 14, 2019, 12:51:11 PM
...the Finnish fanatic  ;)

Sarge

I guess if you are passionate about Haydn or Beethoven you are just someone who likes classical music, but if you adore Elgar's music you are a FANATIC...  >:D  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on November 15, 2019, 01:41:04 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 15, 2019, 01:17:18 AM
Time for new nickname? Elgarian Reduced?

Well it does feel like a reduction, actually. It is a serious personal loss. The Elgar Birthplace Museum has now been put in the hands of The National Trust (it was on the verge of going bust). This has saved the Birthplace in a practical, financial sense, and it now gets many more visitors; but for me, it has ruined it. For example, there used to be a unique and wonderful shop there, which sold pretty much every available Elgar CD, and every available Elgar book. It has been replaced by the kind of standard National Trust shop one can find anywhere, selling tea towels and chutney, and I find it painful to visit.

My chief reasons for belonging to the Society have always been (a) to support the Birthplace Museum; (b) to get free entry to it (we used to go there a lot); and (c) to buy Elgar books and CDs (which purchases also supported the Birthplace of course). All those reasons have now disappeared, so I may as well save the cost of my membership subscription.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 15, 2019, 02:32:03 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 15, 2019, 01:41:04 AM
Well it does feel like a reduction, actually. It is a serious personal loss. The Elgar Birthplace Museum has now been put in the hands of The National Trust (it was on the verge of going bust). This has saved the Birthplace in a practical, financial sense, and it now gets many more visitors; but for me, it has ruined it. For example, there used to be a unique and wonderful shop there, which sold pretty much every available Elgar CD, and every available Elgar book. It has been replaced by the kind of standard National Trust shop one can find anywhere, selling tea towels and chutney, and I find it painful to visit.

My chief reasons for belonging to the Society have always been (a) to support the Birthplace Museum; (b) to get free entry to it (we used to go there a lot); and (c) to buy Elgar books and CDs (which purchases also supported the Birthplace of course). All those reasons have now disappeared, so I may as well save the cost of my membership subscription.

We live on a planet where there's almost limitless money for military, but hardly anything to cherish cultural heritage. I am not surprised of this at all after watching Brexit process for three years. Nothing matters these days except the political careers of power-hungry boneheads...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 15, 2019, 03:28:32 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 15, 2019, 01:41:04 AM
Well it does feel like a reduction, actually. It is a serious personal loss. The Elgar Birthplace Museum has now been put in the hands of The National Trust (it was on the verge of going bust). This has saved the Birthplace in a practical, financial sense, and it now gets many more visitors; but for me, it has ruined it. For example, there used to be a unique and wonderful shop there, which sold pretty much every available Elgar CD, and every available Elgar book. It has been replaced by the kind of standard National Trust shop one can find anywhere, selling tea towels and chutney, and I find it painful to visit.

My chief reasons for belonging to the Society have always been (a) to support the Birthplace Museum; (b) to get free entry to it (we used to go there a lot); and (c) to buy Elgar books and CDs (which purchases also supported the Birthplace of course). All those reasons have now disappeared, so I may as well save the cost of my membership subscription.

I'm a member of the National Trust and was DELIGHTED to see that the Birthplace Museum is now part of that organisation so that I can get free entry whenever I want.  I must admit I find your reasons rather self serving!  You say yourself without the Trust's intervention the museum was going bust - so clearly contributions via memberships and on-site purchases were insufficient.  You also state that footfall is up.  Surely it is BETTER for both the museum itself AND a wider appreciation of Elgar and his Art that MORE people are engaging with it.  Are you really suggesting that it would be better for the Birthplace to be closed to all just because it now sells tea-towels instead of composer-specific items? (all of which can be sourced elsewhere easily). 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Papy Oli on November 15, 2019, 04:40:07 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 15, 2019, 01:41:04 AM
Well it does feel like a reduction, actually. It is a serious personal loss. The Elgar Birthplace Museum has now been put in the hands of The National Trust (it was on the verge of going bust). This has saved the Birthplace in a practical, financial sense, and it now gets many more visitors; but for me, it has ruined it. For example, there used to be a unique and wonderful shop there, which sold pretty much every available Elgar CD, and every available Elgar book. It has been replaced by the kind of standard National Trust shop one can find anywhere, selling tea towels and chutney, and I find it painful to visit.

My chief reasons for belonging to the Society have always been (a) to support the Birthplace Museum; (b) to get free entry to it (we used to go there a lot); and (c) to buy Elgar books and CDs (which purchases also supported the Birthplace of course). All those reasons have now disappeared, so I may as well save the cost of my membership subscription.

It's a bit harsh. NT have salvaged it from closure, their volunteers and employees will maintain it all year round to ensure usual local visitors continue to enjoy it and attract new visitors too. Granted, it may not be a sort of hidden gem any longer for people like yourself who have thankfully sustained it throughout the years but surely its long term accessibility is better for all involved ? Consider the (apparent, from the website) smaller size of that property compared to other larger domains and manors NT also protects. Surely, it's a blessing they provide the upkeep to those smaller sites of high cultural significance as well. I have been in the UK for nearly 22 years, an NT member for probably 15 of those, and that's probably the direct debit I am happiest to see going out of my bank account, even if they doubled or tripled it. Yes the shops are a bit generic throughout with usually a small section only for the property-related items, but surely there are worse evils. it's not as if the NT will turn this place into Disneyland Paris.  0:)  Like the Swan, I for one would love to visit if I pass nearby. (That could be a nice location for a GMG UK meet...anyone ?  8))

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 15, 2019, 06:33:02 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 15, 2019, 01:41:04 AM
Well it does feel like a reduction, actually. It is a serious personal loss. The Elgar Birthplace Museum has now been put in the hands of The National Trust (it was on the verge of going bust). This has saved the Birthplace in a practical, financial sense, and it now gets many more visitors; but for me, it has ruined it. For example, there used to be a unique and wonderful shop there, which sold pretty much every available Elgar CD, and every available Elgar book. It has been replaced by the kind of standard National Trust shop one can find anywhere, selling tea towels and chutney, and I find it painful to visit.

My chief reasons for belonging to the Society have always been (a) to support the Birthplace Museum; (b) to get free entry to it (we used to go there a lot); and (c) to buy Elgar books and CDs (which purchases also supported the Birthplace of course). All those reasons have now disappeared, so I may as well save the cost of my membership subscription.

I grieve with you. The gooseberry pie is a help, though.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on November 15, 2019, 07:10:49 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 15, 2019, 01:30:33 AM
I guess if you are passionate about Haydn or Beethoven you are just someone who likes classical music, but if you adore Elgar's music you are a FANATIC...  >:D  ;D

Plenty of Brits are fanatical about Sibelius (including me) so the other way around addresses the balance (a bit). ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on November 15, 2019, 10:11:23 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 15, 2019, 01:30:33 AM
I guess if you are passionate about Haydn or Beethoven you are just someone who likes classical music, but if you adore Elgar's music you are a FANATIC...  >:D  ;D

No, but if you sing "Land of Hope and Glory" in the shower, you may just be.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 15, 2019, 11:08:59 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 15, 2019, 10:11:23 AM
No, but if you sing "Land of Hope and Glory" in the shower, you may just be.

I don't sing anything in the shower...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on November 15, 2019, 01:00:45 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 15, 2019, 03:28:32 AM
I'm a member of the National Trust and was DELIGHTED to see that the Birthplace Museum is now part of that organisation so that I can get free entry whenever I want.  I must admit I find your reasons rather self serving!  You say yourself without the Trust's intervention the museum was going bust - so clearly contributions via memberships and on-site purchases were insufficient.  You also state that footfall is up.  Surely it is BETTER for both the museum itself AND a wider appreciation of Elgar and his Art that MORE people are engaging with it.  Are you really suggesting that it would be better for the Birthplace to be closed to all just because it now sells tea-towels instead of composer-specific items? (all of which can be sourced elsewhere easily).
I said it was a personal loss. I didn't say that the handing over to the National Trust didn't save the Birthplace. It did. Neither did I say I thought it would be 'better' for the Birthplace to close instead. I know very well that many people like the new look, and I think that's a fine thing for them. I was explaining why it is a loss to me, personally, and I have as much right to express my sadness about the loss as others have to express delight in the new regime. I am not morally obliged to be a member of the Elgar Society, and indeed I have supported the Birthplace in many quiet, unnoticed ways for many, many years.

But some things do not last forever, and it transpired that my membership turns out to be one of them. Yet you, in complete ignorance of the background and my personal circumstances, insultingly call my reasons 'self-serving'? I really do not accept you as an appropriate moral authority in this matter, and I am astonished that you seem to think you are.

It is extraordinary that within a matter of days of returning to GMG, I find myself involved in this sort of unpleasantness almost immediately. Enough is enough. I am gone.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on November 15, 2019, 01:17:23 PM
No, don't go, please.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DaveF on November 15, 2019, 01:26:57 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on November 15, 2019, 04:40:07 AM
(That could be a nice location for a GMG UK meet...anyone ?  8))

I'd like that, certainly, although I'm about 50 miles away, and only a very qualified Elgarian (I think non-English Brits struggle with the "Spirit of England" thing, especially when "England" was used as a synonym for Britain or the UK - and still is in some contexts (UK international relations being generally known as "Anglo-American, "Anglo-French" etc.))  Anyway, parenthetical rant over; a GMG trip to Broadheath, then up to Malvern to the graves, Craeg Lea, up onto the hills, would be most agreeable.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: relm1 on November 15, 2019, 05:14:38 PM
I am listening now to the Andrew Davis/BBC Symphony recording Elgar's No. 3.  It's extremely convincing.  Thanks for the suggestions, this was definitely worth hearing.  There are some moments that sounded a bit more like Tchaikovsky (No. 5) than Elgar but for all I know, these were actually Elgar's moments.  I would like to better understand the creation of this adaption which I am sure is well documented.  What percent is Payne and what percent is Elgar?  Though it is still convincing, it helps me understand how to evaluate it.  It's a really wonderful symphony and definitely worth being considered as part of Elgar's oeuvre.

The Scherzo was overlong.  A criticism I have of his other symphonies.  Structure isn't Elgar's strength (more on that later).  Some composers deal with structural issues through over reliance on texture.  I am certainly guilty of this.   

I feel the third movement is also guilty of too much extension.  Basically, a musical sequence.  A musical sequence is a thematic statement that is then restated with a pitch variation.  It is a way to extend musical development.  As if a composer wants to elaborate on a theme and needs more time, they'll play that theme again in a sequence that is modulated in different keys.  It gets old fast.  In contrast, there is a through line like Rachmaninoff's Vocalise which doesn't follow normal structure.   Don't get me wrong, symphonies don't need to follow strict structure but their needs to be a cohesive structure and I feel that is the weak point of this symphony.  You can sound like Elgar but need to have structure too.  Structure is what separate "stuff that sounds like Elgar" from "Elgar composed this".  That is why Mahler 10 is truly a composition from Mahler regardless of who orchestrated it.  Structure is very, very hard to get right. The bigger the work, the harder it is.  I also believe not all music needs to adhere to structure...for example a rhapsody is regardless of form.  It is an indulgence of the theme but that doesn't quite apply here because there isn't a grand thematic "moment". 

The finale is

I tend to think of Elgar in short form.   Enigma for example are a set of short movements fine as they are.  Or Pomp and Circumstances, even giant works like Gerontius are full of multiple set pieces.  The two famous concerti (violin and cello) are very good and late examples of form but rare.  His two extant symphonies aren't amazing examples of structure and could be criticized as overlong and bloated.  But I am a fan of Elgar.  I've performed much of his music and it has a potent impact...Enigma is challenging and rewarding to perform in concert which I've performed multiple times.  He is surprising challenging yet thrilling to perform.

I know nothing of Anthony Payne's music so can't comment on how much of his "voice" is in this work. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on November 16, 2019, 01:22:35 AM
Quote from: André on November 15, 2019, 01:17:23 PM
No, don't go, please.

+1

Do as Sarge wear a hard hat.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 16, 2019, 02:25:10 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 15, 2019, 01:00:45 PM
I said it was a personal loss. I didn't say that the handing over to the National Trust didn't save the Birthplace. It did. Neither did I say I thought it would be 'better' for the Birthplace to close instead. I know very well that many people like the new look, and I think that's a fine thing for them. I was explaining why it is a loss to me, personally, and I have as much right to express my sadness about the loss as others have to express delight in the new regime. I am not morally obliged to be a member of the Elgar Society, and indeed I have supported the Birthplace in many quiet, unnoticed ways for many, many years.

But some things do not last forever, and it transpired that my membership turns out to be one of them. Yet you, in complete ignorance of the background and my personal circumstances, insultingly call my reasons 'self-serving'? I really do not accept you as an appropriate moral authority in this matter, and I am astonished that you seem to think you are.

It is extraordinary that within a matter of days of returning to GMG, I find myself involved in this sort of unpleasantness almost immediately. Enough is enough. I am gone.

No personal insult was intended and if such was taken I apologise.  However any forum has to be open to debate and while I have no idea of the individual circumstances of anyone on this forum I can only respond to what I read and the interpretation I take from that.  Take umbrage if you will, but no forum has a lasting value if all we do is agree with everything anyone ever expresses.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 16, 2019, 06:35:51 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 15, 2019, 05:14:38 PM
I would like to better understand the creation of this adaption which I am sure is well documented. 

There is this commentary CD which I have, but haven't listened to for two decades so please don't ask details.

[asin]B00002687H[/asin]
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on November 16, 2019, 08:53:07 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 15, 2019, 05:14:38 PM
I am listening now to the Andrew Davis/BBC Symphony recording Elgar's No. 3.  It's extremely convincing.  Thanks for the suggestions, this was definitely worth hearing.  There are some moments that sounded a bit more like Tchaikovsky (No. 5) than Elgar but for all I know, these were actually Elgar's moments.  I would like to better understand the creation of this adaption which I am sure is well documented.  What percent is Payne and what percent is Elgar?  Though it is still convincing, it helps me understand how to evaluate it.  It's a really wonderful symphony and definitely worth being considered as part of Elgar's oeuvre.

The Scherzo was overlong.  A criticism I have of his other symphonies.  Structure isn't Elgar's strength (more on that later).  Some composers deal with structural issues through over reliance on texture.  I am certainly guilty of this.   

I feel the third movement is also guilty of too much extension.  Basically, a musical sequence.  A musical sequence is a thematic statement that is then restated with a pitch variation.  It is a way to extend musical development.  As if a composer wants to elaborate on a theme and needs more time, they'll play that theme again in a sequence that is modulated in different keys.  It gets old fast.  In contrast, there is a through line like Rachmaninoff's Vocalise which doesn't follow normal structure.   Don't get me wrong, symphonies don't need to follow strict structure but their needs to be a cohesive structure and I feel that is the weak point of this symphony.  You can sound like Elgar but need to have structure too.  Structure is what separate "stuff that sounds like Elgar" from "Elgar composed this".  That is why Mahler 10 is truly a composition from Mahler regardless of who orchestrated it.  Structure is very, very hard to get right. The bigger the work, the harder it is.  I also believe not all music needs to adhere to structure...for example a rhapsody is regardless of form.  It is an indulgence of the theme but that doesn't quite apply here because there isn't a grand thematic "moment". 

The finale is

I tend to think of Elgar in short form.   Enigma for example are a set of short movements fine as they are.  Or Pomp and Circumstances, even giant works like Gerontius are full of multiple set pieces.  The two famous concerti (violin and cello) are very good and late examples of form but rare.  His two extant symphonies aren't amazing examples of structure and could be criticized as overlong and bloated.  But I am a fan of Elgar.  I've performed much of his music and it has a potent impact...Enigma is challenging and rewarding to perform in concert which I've performed multiple times.  He is surprising challenging yet thrilling to perform.

I know nothing of Anthony Payne's music so can't comment on how much of his "voice" is in this work.
I'm so glad that you enjoyed it and thought you would. My suggestion is to get the companion CD shown by 71 dB above. As a composer yourself I think that you'd find it most instructive. There's a book 'Elgar as I Knew Him' by W.H.Reed which features the surviving sketches of the Third Symphony I think.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on November 16, 2019, 08:55:26 AM
Quote from: Irons on November 16, 2019, 01:22:35 AM
+1

Do as Sarge wear a hard hat.

Yes, please don't go.

Life's too short for that.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 16, 2019, 07:29:11 PM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on November 15, 2019, 01:00:45 PM
I said it was a personal loss. I didn't say that the handing over to the National Trust didn't save the Birthplace. It did. Neither did I say I thought it would be 'better' for the Birthplace to close instead. I know very well that many people like the new look, and I think that's a fine thing for them. I was explaining why it is a loss to me, personally, and I have as much right to express my sadness about the loss as others have to express delight in the new regime. I am not morally obliged to be a member of the Elgar Society, and indeed I have supported the Birthplace in many quiet, unnoticed ways for many, many years.

But some things do not last forever, and it transpired that my membership turns out to be one of them. Yet you, in complete ignorance of the background and my personal circumstances, insultingly call my reasons 'self-serving'? I really do not accept you as an appropriate moral authority in this matter, and I am astonished that you seem to think you are.

It is extraordinary that within a matter of days of returning to GMG, I find myself involved in this sort of unpleasantness almost immediately. Enough is enough. I am gone.

Please don't go, Elgarian Redux. I really enjoy your posts about Elgar (and other composers). If you do decide to leave, then please reconsider immediately. All things will pass and the bad taste you have your mouth will subside. You have always been so nice to me even when I didn't deserve it, I'd hate to see you go over something like this.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on November 17, 2019, 01:59:14 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 16, 2019, 07:29:11 PM
Please don't go, Elgarian Redux. I really enjoy your posts about Elgar (and other composers). If you do decide to leave, then please reconsider immediately. All things will pass and the bad taste you have your mouth will subside. You have always been so nice to me even when I didn't deserve it, I'd hate to see you go over something like this.

It's mentally hard to be on this forum, surprisingly hard. It's amazing how toxic this place can be. This is kind of a magnet for besserwissers* and I don't count myself out. Out of all discussion boards I have posted on I think this one is where I have had my worst meltdowns so I can understand if Elgarian Redux wants to go...  :P

* Do you remember the king of besserwissers, M Forever?  ???
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on November 17, 2019, 05:08:50 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 17, 2019, 01:59:14 AM
It's mentally hard to be on this forum, surprisingly hard. It's amazing how toxic this place can be. This is kind of a magnet for besserwissers* and I don't count myself out. Out of all discussion boards I have posted on I think this one is where I have had my worst meltdowns so I can understand if Elgarian Redux wants to go...  :P

* Do you remember the king of besserwissers, M Forever?  ???

Fair enough. I respect your view. I think that it has something to do with the nature of posted communications where the tone of the message can come across as much harsher than actually intended. Tone is very important and impossible to gauge in written communications (you should see some of the text messages between my wife and myself!  :o)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on November 17, 2019, 05:48:55 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 17, 2019, 01:59:14 AM
It's mentally hard to be on this forum, surprisingly hard. It's amazing how toxic this place can be. This is kind of a magnet for besserwissers* and I don't count myself out. Out of all discussion boards I have posted on I think this one is where I have had my worst meltdowns so I can understand if Elgarian Redux wants to go...  :P

* Do you remember the king of besserwissers, M Forever?  ???

But a lot of your problem stems from the fact that you freely admitted that the political threads have caused your meltdown and, yet, you continue to frequent those threads over and over again as if you didn't learn your lesson the first-time around. I never had a meltdown on this forum or any forum for that matter. I have been rather nasty to several members but I apologized for my boorish behavior almost as quickly as I posted the negative posts. I stick to threads that I'm interested in which would be the music-related ones and leave the political threads to those who wish to dish it out to each other while knowing nothing is truly gained from these kinds of interactions to begin with.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: relm1 on December 22, 2019, 04:27:27 PM
This is a fantastic work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed4DWO_RzNs
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on December 23, 2019, 12:24:49 AM
Quote from: relm1 on December 22, 2019, 04:27:27 PM
This is a fantastic work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed4DWO_RzNs

Indeed it is. The essence of EE in under 8 minutes.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 23, 2019, 03:01:53 AM
Quote from: Irons on December 23, 2019, 12:24:49 AM
Indeed it is. The essence of EE in under 8 minutes.

Actually about 12 minutes, because the complete music for Grania & Diarmid, Op. 42 includes the song 'There Are Seven That Pull the Thread'

https://www.youtube.com/v/OEoGZjhYggM
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: relm1 on December 23, 2019, 05:50:00 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 23, 2019, 03:01:53 AM
Actually about 12 minutes, because the complete music for Grania & Diarmid, Op. 42 includes the song 'There Are Seven That Pull the Thread'

https://www.youtube.com/v/OEoGZjhYggM

That is so beautiful.  I especially love the line "Holiest, holiest seven" and how the melody is so gently echoed on clarinet and bassoon.  Beautiful music. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Papy Oli on January 27, 2020, 12:37:25 PM
What would be some good alternatives to the Naxos symphonies I currently have for Elgar please (Hurst 1, Downes 2) ?

As I am currently reading one of his books and also amassed a few of his recordings recently, I was particularly looking at Boult. Best to go for his EMI or the Lyrita ?

Any other conductors to consider please ? Thank you for your suggestions.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 27, 2020, 12:42:07 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on January 27, 2020, 12:37:25 PM
What would be some good alternatives to the Naxos symphonies I currently have for Elgar please (Hurst 1, Downes 2) ?

As I am currently reading one of his books and also amassed a few of his recordings recently, I was particularly looking at Boult. Best to go for his EMI or the Lyrita ?

Any other conductors to consider please ? Thank you for your suggestions.

Barbirolli, Elder, or Andrew Davis --- you really can't go wrong with any of these conductors in Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 27, 2020, 01:22:13 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 27, 2020, 12:42:07 PM
Barbirolli, Elder, or Andrew Davis --- you really can't go wrong with any of these conductors in Elgar.

I still return to Handley/LPO.  I do think you need to sit the violins antiphonally in Elgar and the effect registers extremely well here.  The recordings still sound very fine - I love the added organ at the end of No.2 (Slatkin/LPO adds this too).  Not so keen on the Lyrita/Boult.  But there are many fine versions to be sure.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 27, 2020, 01:32:21 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 27, 2020, 01:22:13 PM
I still return to Handley/LPO.  I do think you need to sit the violins antiphonally in Elgar and the effect registers extremely well here.  The recordings still sound very fine - I love the added organ at the end of No.2 (Slatkin/LPO adds this too).  Not so keen on the Lyrita/Boult.  But there are many fine versions to be sure.

Hmmm...I might need to revisit Handley's Elgar. But, honestly, he's not one of my favorite Brit composers. That honor would go to Britten, Walton, and Vaughan Williams.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on January 28, 2020, 12:02:52 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 27, 2020, 01:22:13 PM
I still return to Handley/LPO.  I do think you need to sit the violins antiphonally in Elgar and the effect registers extremely well here.  The recordings still sound very fine - I love the added organ at the end of No.2 (Slatkin/LPO adds this too).  Not so keen on the Lyrita/Boult.  But there are many fine versions to be sure.

The violin arrangement resulted in a row between Boult and Itter for the Lyrita recordings I believe.

Too easy to forget Handley for Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Papy Oli on January 28, 2020, 01:03:18 AM
Thank you guys for the pointers, I'll check those out.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 28, 2020, 01:50:39 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on January 28, 2020, 01:03:18 AM
Thank you guys for the pointers, I'll check those out.

I forgot Mackerras and Tate in the Symphonies as well - both very fine.  And Sinopoli if you are looking for something a bit more individualistic.....?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51QLgTXf1WL.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/411BR329S0L._AC_UL320_ML3_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A1M7UJr2UsL._AC_UL320_ML3_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61r9zNwF82L._AC_UL320_ML3_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 28, 2020, 03:32:45 PM
I really like Mackerras in the symphonies. His Elgar is full-blooded and full-throated.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on January 28, 2020, 04:56:39 PM
I have Barenboim conducting the London Philharmonic in Elgar's Symphony no.1 but found it kindof unconvincing. I suspect the recording is the problem. Barenboim is a good conductor in my book, but I don't think his style works for Elgar's music, and my appreciation of which is fragile anyway. I might check out the Mackerras.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: aukhawk on January 29, 2020, 01:03:03 AM
Barenboim with Pinchas Zukerman is my favourite recording of the Elgar Violin Concerto.  I have my needledropped vinyl but it looks as though it is available as part of this collection:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2BiCMF3ejL._AC_.jpg)
Sony Essential Classics Elgar twofer

For the symphonies don't forget Solti !  (I'll put my tin hat on now)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61lvPe3v1rL._AC_UY218_ML3_.jpg)

I think these are great performances but the digital transfer is a bit on the over-bright side, typical early Decca.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 29, 2020, 01:28:05 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 29, 2020, 01:03:03 AM
Barenboim with Pinchas Zukerman is my favourite recording of the Elgar Violin Concerto.  I have my needledropped vinyl but it looks as though it is available as part of this collection:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2BiCMF3ejL._AC_.jpg)
Sony Essential Classics Elgar twofer

For the symphonies don't forget Solti !  (I'll put my tin hat on now)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61lvPe3v1rL._AC_UY218_ML3_.jpg)

I think these are great performances but the digital transfer is a bit on the over-bright side, typical early Decca.

The Barenboim/Zuckerman is without doubt one of the great versions - and useful because it places the style of the work in the European mainstream and also Zuckerman's playing is big and bold.  For personal choice I'd go for something a bit more elusive - Hugh Bean with Charles Groves for instance but I like the Zukerman a lot.  The best of Barenboim's first recordings of Elgar.  The rest (symphonies etc) are good but not as good as the competition and also the CBS/Sony recordings even for their time are not great.

The Solti Symphonies are a valid alternative too.  The reasons behind Solti's interpretations are well known and certainly worth hearing.  You are right about the Decca sound - as much to do with a consciously "hi fi" almost forensic approach which in some ways is spectacular as the orchestra play very well but in others is almost too much detail (if that's possible!)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: aukhawk on January 29, 2020, 01:39:52 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 29, 2020, 01:28:05 AM
For personal choice I'd go for something a bit more elusive - Hugh Bean with Charles Groves for instance but I like the Zukerman a lot.

In a rare (for me) foray to a live concert I saw Nigel Kennedy play this with Vernon Handley conducting the Halle.  I don't know about 'elusive' but my wife slept through most of it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 29, 2020, 03:11:37 AM
In my opinion Sir Adrian Boult really understood Elgar's music. My favorite performances of Elgar's Symphonies are the Naxos discs (great balance of sound quality and performance insight into musical details and these were the first I heard when exploring Elgar in 1997). As for the Third "elaborated" Symphony Andrew Davis is excellent, as is Andrew Davis' Enigma on the Opus Arte DVD. I also like Elder's Elgar, but imo Boult's Apostles and Kingdom are much better than Elder's despite of Elder benefitting from superior modern sound quality.

There's many performances of the symphonies I haven't heard: Tate, MacKerras, Solti... ...despite of being somewhat overlooked composer outside UK Elgar is lucky to have an impressive amount of recordings available of his most popular works. The reason why I haven't explored all recordings is because I have notice the first recording, if good enough, becomes my reference against which I compare any other recording so that the other recordings are "wrong" in the ways they differ from the reference. Only if I discover a far superior version does it become the new reference. Having heard half dozen performances of the symphonies that's unlike to happen. I rather spend my time and money exploring composers and works new to me, for example Weinberg, whose symphonies are mostly yet to be heard by me.

Now, you can disagree with me all you want. I don't care. I'm entitled to my opinions no matter how silly they seem to other people. I actually really like Elgar's music unlike some others preferring Britten and Vaughan Williams...  :-[
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on January 29, 2020, 01:50:58 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 28, 2020, 04:56:39 PM
I have Barenboim conducting the London Philharmonic in Elgar's Symphony no.1 but found it kindof unconvincing. I suspect the recording is the problem. Barenboim is a good conductor in my book, but I don't think his style works for Elgar's music, and my appreciation of which is fragile anyway. I might check out the Mackerras.

Correct. The recordings are over-reverberant and irritatingly unfocused. Trying to keep one's attention on the music becomes quite a challenge. It shouldn't be like that. Mackerras, Boult and Haitink tick all the boxes in their own individual ways.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 29, 2020, 01:58:31 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 29, 2020, 03:11:37 AMNow, you can disagree with me all you want. I don't care. I'm entitled to my opinions no matter how silly they seem to other people. I actually really like Elgar's music unlike some others preferring Britten and Vaughan Williams...  :-[

No, I think you have it all wrong. My preference is for Mahler and Sibelius over Elgar, Britten and Vaughan Williams. :P So chew on that! :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 29, 2020, 02:36:44 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 29, 2020, 01:58:31 PM
No, I think you have it all wrong. My preference is for Mahler and Sibelius over Elgar, Britten and Vaughan Williams. :P So chew on that! :)

Well, I live 5 miles away from the Sibelius monument, so chew on that!  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 29, 2020, 04:08:04 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 29, 2020, 02:36:44 PM
Well, I live 5 miles away from the Sibelius monument, so chew on that!  ;D

That's awesome! Although, I will say your comment would have carried more weight if you actually liked the composer's music. ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: aukhawk on January 30, 2020, 08:19:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 29, 2020, 01:58:31 PM
No, I think you have it all wrong. My preference is for Mahler and Sibelius over Elgar, Britten and Vaughan Williams. :P So chew on that! :)

And anyone who likes Mahler AND Sibelius is just plain ... oh, wait (checks own record collection)   ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 31, 2020, 07:08:56 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on January 30, 2020, 08:19:31 AM
And anyone who likes Mahler AND Sibelius is just plain ... oh, wait (checks own record collection)   ;D

:P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on March 11, 2020, 01:20:21 PM
I wrote about this on WAYLT thread but just wanted to say that I have never heard a better performance of the Enigma Variations than this recording conducted by Sir John Barbirolli with the Halle Orchestra in 1947. Remarkably, before this release and for some unknown reason, the performance had never been issued in any format before - which I find quite extraordinary. It is quite fast at 26 minutes but it has IMO a power, depth and urgency unlike any other version that I have heard. It has restored my faith in this work:
(//)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 11, 2020, 01:27:46 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 11, 2020, 01:20:21 PM
I wrote about this on WAYLT thread but just wanted to say that I have never heard a better performance of the Enigma Variations than this recording conducted by Sir John Barbirolli with the Halle Orchestra in 1947. Remarkably, before this release and for some unknown reason, the performance had never been issued in any format before - which I find quite extraordinary. It is quite fast at 26 minutes but it has IMO a power, depth and urgency unlike any other version that I have heard. It has restored my faith in this work:
(//)

Too bad it's so old recording so the sound quality is what it is. I think my favorite Enigma Variation is Opus Arte DVD / Sir Andrew Davis.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on March 11, 2020, 01:38:25 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 11, 2020, 01:27:46 PM
Too bad it's so old recording so the sound quality is what it is. I think my favorite Enigma Variation is Opus Arte DVD / Sir Andrew Davis.
Good to know. I think that Michael J. Dutton has done an excellent job with the remastering and the recording did not spoil my enjoyment at all, although I rather like the 'historical ambience' of these recordings.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 11, 2020, 01:57:13 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 11, 2020, 01:38:25 PM
Good to know. I think that Michael J. Dutton has done an excellent job with the remastering and the recording did not spoil my enjoyment at all, although I rather like the 'historical ambience' of these recordings.

Thanks for the info.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on March 11, 2020, 02:37:02 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 11, 2020, 01:20:21 PM
I wrote about this on WAYLT thread but just wanted to say that I have never heard a better performance of the Enigma Variations than this recording conducted by Sir John Barbirolli with the Halle Orchestra in 1947. Remarkably, before this release and for some unknown reason, the performance had never been issued in any format before - which I find quite extraordinary. It is quite fast at 26 minutes but it has IMO a power, depth and urgency unlike any other version that I have heard. It has restored my faith in this work:


I must have a later Barbirolli/Hallé recording.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on March 11, 2020, 10:23:49 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 11, 2020, 02:37:02 PM
I must have a later Barbirolli/Hallé recording.
Maybe this one Karl?
Another famous and highly regarded recording:
(//)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 12, 2020, 04:13:53 AM
I don't know how many times Barbirolli recorded Enigma Variations.
I have a 1963 recording in my EMI 30 CD Elgar boxset.
I'll revisit that.
Some Elgar could do good for me...  0:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on March 12, 2020, 06:46:41 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 11, 2020, 10:23:49 PM
Maybe this one Karl?
Another famous and highly regarded recording:


On my CD the other major work is the Cello Concerto, with IIRC André Navarra.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 12, 2020, 09:18:12 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 12, 2020, 06:46:41 AM
On my CD the other major work is the Cello Concerto, with IIRC André Navarra.

So, you have this:

[asin]B000002S2G[/asin]
"All of the performances are from the late 50s. With the exception of the MONO Cello Concerto, the remainder of the program is in very early stereo." -Thomas Martin
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on March 12, 2020, 02:53:51 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 12, 2020, 09:18:12 AM
So, you have this:

[asin]B000002S2G[/asin]
"All of the performances are from the late 50s. With the exception of the MONO Cello Concerto, the remainder of the program is in very early stereo." -Thomas Martin

It was one of my first CDs, and it is a beauty.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2020, 05:34:33 PM
On Saturday at 8PM Chowder Time, WCRB rebroadcasts a BSO concert including the Elgar Cello Concerto:  https://www.classicalwcrb.org/#stream/0 (https://www.classicalwcrb.org/#stream/0)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on May 22, 2020, 02:30:32 AM
Best recording of Elgar's symphonies? I have Barenboim/London Philharmonic for the 1st symphony and I remain unconvinced. I'm not sure why but I don't seem to find Barenboim idiomatic in this kind of repertoire.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on May 22, 2020, 03:12:07 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 22, 2020, 02:30:32 AM
Best recording of Elgar's symphonies? I have Barenboim/London Philharmonic for the 1st symphony and I remain unconvinced. I'm not sure why but I don't seem to find Barenboim idiomatic in this kind of repertoire.

I haven't heard Barenboim's LPO recording but when his (fairly) recent Berlin performances were released I tried them both and didn't like them; many people did. There is a Barenboim performance of Gerontius in the Berlin Philharmonic Digital Concert Hall and it is excellent, better than the one released on CD (with a different Berlin orchestra).

For the symphonies my heart goes with Barbirolli but my head says Boult (Lyrita or EMI). I don't like the widely admired Solti recordings (Decca).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 22, 2020, 03:14:45 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 22, 2020, 02:30:32 AM
Best recording of Elgar's symphonies? I have Barenboim/London Philharmonic for the 1st symphony and I remain unconvinced. I'm not sure why but I don't seem to find Barenboim idiomatic in this kind of repertoire.

I don't think there is a consensus about this.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on May 22, 2020, 03:43:11 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 22, 2020, 03:12:07 AM
I haven't heard Barenboim's LPO recording but when his (fairly) recent Berlin performances were released I tried them both and didn't like them; many people did. There is a Barenboim performance of Gerontius in the Berlin Philharmonic Digital Concert Hall and it is excellent, better than the one released on CD (with a different Berlin orchestra).

For the symphonies my heart goes with Barbirolli but my head says Boult (Lyrita or EMI). I don't like the widely admired Solti recordings (Decca).

Solti doesn't strike me as someone who would be convincing as an Elgarian. Barbirolli and Boult both sound promising. Thanks.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: amw on May 22, 2020, 03:53:11 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 22, 2020, 03:12:07 AM
I haven't heard Barenboim's LPO recording but when his (fairly) recent Berlin performances were released I tried them both and didn't like them; many people did. There is a Barenboim performance of Gerontius in the Berlin Philharmonic Digital Concert Hall and it is excellent, better than the one released on CD (with a different Berlin orchestra).

For the symphonies my heart goes with Barbirolli but my head says Boult (Lyrita or EMI). I don't like the widely admired Solti recordings (Decca).
Curiously I've heard nothing but negativity about the Solti recordings online for a long time, which eventually made me curious enough to hear them (I like them). I suppose they must have been well regarded at some point though given the number of reissues and compilations they ended up in.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on May 22, 2020, 04:02:29 AM
Quote from: amw on May 22, 2020, 03:53:11 AM
Curiously I've heard nothing but negativity about the Solti recordings online for a long time, which eventually made me curious enough to hear them (I like them). I suppose they must have been well regarded at some point though given the number of reissues and compilations they ended up in.

I remember they got very good reviews when they were first issued and many people still like them (judging by the comments in various forums) but I don't. I don't want pre-judge them for you so I will say no more.

There seems to be quite a few people who seem to automatically dislike anything by Solti, I am not one of them and have numerous of his recordings.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on May 22, 2020, 07:20:33 AM
I read somewhere that Solti scrupulously followed EE tempo markings.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 22, 2020, 08:15:50 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 22, 2020, 02:30:32 AM
Best recording of Elgar's symphonies?

Quote from: Biffo on May 22, 2020, 03:12:07 AM
For the symphonies my heart goes with Barbirolli but my head says Boult (Lyrita or EMI). I don't like the widely admired Solti recordings (Decca).

La Flamme, you can't go wrong with Biffo's suggestion of the two Bs. I do like Solti's Elgar, though, especially the Violin Concerto with Kyung Wha Chung. That combination brings out both the masculine and feminine sides of the music to great effect. My own favorites of the symphonies are Previn and Boult in the 1st and Sinopoli and Tate in the 2nd (but you'd need to appreciate broad tempi).

Sarge

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 22, 2020, 08:18:32 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 22, 2020, 04:02:29 AM
I remember they got very good reviews when they were first issued and many people still like them (judging by the comments in various forums) but I don't. I don't want pre-judge them for you so I will say no more.

There seems to be quite a few people who seem to automatically dislike anything by Solti, I am not one of them and have numerous of his recordings.

I certainly like them, but that's probably because I don't like Elgar that wallows or meanders. Solti applies the firm hand of discipline to this music. Otherwise Boult seems a safe choice. Previn's #1 is really good too.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on May 22, 2020, 08:23:00 AM
Quote from: Irons on May 22, 2020, 07:20:33 AM
I read somewhere that Solti scrupulously followed EE tempo markings.

Solti is pretty close to Elgar's 1930 timings in Symphony No 1 but then so is Boult; Solti and Boult are nearly identical in No 2 and roughly 3 mins overall slower than Elgar. In the case of Solti most of that difference is in one movement, the Larghetto - Elgar 12'57, Boult 13'17 and Solti 15'30.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 22, 2020, 10:05:06 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 22, 2020, 08:18:32 AM
I certainly like them, but that's probably because I don't like Elgar that wallows or meanders. Solti applies the firm hand of discipline to this music. Otherwise Boult seems a safe choice. Previn's #1 is really good too.

Verbs "wallow" or "meander" aren't those I'd use about badly performed Elgar, but then again I am an Elgarian.  ;D To me well performed Elgar gets the complex multidimensionality of the music right and a bad performance doesn't and is "tangled." My first introduction to Elgar's symphonies in 1997 were Hurst and Downes on Naxos and I still think those are solid performances that get Elgar right. Not saying these are the absolute best you can have, but at least good and since I heard them first they are the "reference" performances to me. I also like Boult's Elgar a lot. I think that man really understood Elgar, but his recordings don't offer "digital clarity". Elder is pretty good too.

The surprising thing is there's tons of performances of the symphonies I have not heard.  ???
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2020, 11:56:06 AM
Had anyone heard the Bryden Thomson? Some years ago a friend spoke of them as his preference.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: amw on May 22, 2020, 12:15:55 PM
Quote from: Biffo on May 22, 2020, 04:02:29 AM
I remember they got very good reviews when they were first issued and many people still like them (judging by the comments in various forums) but I don't. I don't want pre-judge them for you so I will say no more
I have already heard them and enjoy them.

I think part of it is this forum and another one I frequent both have large populations of people who love Barbirolli and hate Solti (and I've never personally got on with Barbirolli either) which can drown out the received critical opinion tending to be the opposite.

As far as the symphonies go, I also like Mackerras and Hickox.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 22, 2020, 01:46:34 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 22, 2020, 11:56:06 AM
Had anyone heard the Bryden Thomson? Some years ago a friend spoke of them as his preference.

If only Elgarian was still amongst us... :(
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: aukhawk on May 23, 2020, 01:22:40 AM
Quote from: amw on May 22, 2020, 03:53:11 AM
Curiously I've heard nothing but negativity about the Solti recordings online for a long time, which eventually made me curious enough to hear them (I like them). I suppose they must have been well regarded at some point though given the number of reissues and compilations they ended up in.

They are rosetted in my elderly copy of the Penguin Guide.  I like them but I find the CD transfers to be a bit harsh on the ears, a common problem with digitised Decca recordings from that sort of era.  This twofer:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81R1CwiKjvL.jpg)

I had the vinyl of Symphony 1 which sounded just fine:

(https://img.discogs.com/dxmky_2P1hjlsGPYgy_1AQ-wxGk=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-5063961-1415208754-6743.jpeg.jpg)

All that said, I would generally turn to Boult's EMI recordings for the Symphonies, Barenboim/Zukerman for the Violin Concerto, Silvestri for In The South.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on May 23, 2020, 04:11:08 AM
Tonight, should you wish:

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 21, 2020, 05:34:33 PM
On Saturday at 8PM Chowder Time, WCRB rebroadcasts a BSO concert including the Elgar Cello Concerto:  https://www.classicalwcrb.org/#stream/0 (https://www.classicalwcrb.org/#stream/0)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on May 23, 2020, 03:01:09 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 23, 2020, 04:11:08 AM
Tonight, should you wish:


The cellist is Truls Mørk
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kyjo on May 23, 2020, 05:05:56 PM
Fellow Elgarians: What do you consider to be the darkest recording of the 2nd Symphony? One that really brings out the work's darker undercurrents? I'm looking for a recording that delivers utmost mysteriousness in the second ("ghost") theme of the first movement, tragic nobility in the slow movement, ferocity in the scherzo (the climax needs to be shattering!!), and nostalgic summing-up in the finale. BTW I'm not very interested in "historical" recordings, no matter the merits of the interpretation.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 23, 2020, 05:12:14 PM
Quote from: kyjo on May 23, 2020, 05:05:56 PM
Fellow Elgarians: What do you consider to be the darkest recording of the 2nd Symphony? One that really brings out the work's darker undercurrents? I'm looking for a recording that delivers utmost mysteriousness in the second ("ghost") theme of the first movement, tragic nobility in the slow movement, ferocity in the scherzo (the climax needs to be shattering!!), and nostalgic summing-up in the finale. BTW I'm not very interested in "historical" recordings, no matter the merits of the interpretation.

For the qualities in which you speak of, I'd say Andrew Davis' Philharmonia live recording. This one:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk4NDM0Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NDc5MzE5MDl9)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kyjo on May 23, 2020, 05:15:56 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 23, 2020, 05:12:14 PM
For the qualities in which you speak of, I'd say Andrew Davis' Philharmonia live recording. This one:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk4NDM0Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NDc5MzE5MDl9)

Thanks John, I'll check it out! Just today I was listening to Edward Gardner's recent recording with the BBCSO on Chandos which I enjoyed very much - it's immaculately played and recorded - but perhaps a bit too "smooth" and not always bringing out some of the more visceral aspects of the score.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 23, 2020, 05:20:22 PM
Quote from: kyjo on May 23, 2020, 05:15:56 PM
Thanks John, I'll check it out! Just today I was listening to Edward Gardner's recent recording with the BBCSO on Chandos which I enjoyed very much - it's immaculately played and recorded - but perhaps a bit too "smooth" and not always bringing out some of the more visceral aspects of the score.

You're welcome, Kyle. I personally like my Elgar more on the rougher side. Andrew Davis and Mark Elder are usually my go-to Elgarians, but I do like Boult a lot as well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 24, 2020, 04:32:35 AM
Quote from: kyjo on May 23, 2020, 05:15:56 PM
Thanks John, I'll check it out! Just today I was listening to Edward Gardner's recent recording with the BBCSO on Chandos which I enjoyed very much - it's immaculately played and recorded - but perhaps a bit too "smooth" and not always bringing out some of the more visceral aspects of the score.

My feeling with most of Gardner's recordings is that the ear is seduced by the sheer quality of the recording and playing but strip that away and they are unexceptional interpretations.  Nothing to offend by any means but little to engross....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2020, 05:30:11 AM
Quote from: kyjo on May 23, 2020, 05:05:56 PM
Fellow Elgarians: What do you consider to be the darkest recording of the 2nd Symphony?

With the proviso that we all tend to hear things differently, I suggest giving Sinopoli a try. I think it quite dark, slow and brooding.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: relm1 on May 24, 2020, 05:53:45 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2020, 05:30:11 AM
With the proviso that we all tend to hear things differently, I suggest giving Sinopoli a try. I think it quite dark, slow and brooding.

Sarge
+1, was about to suggest Sinopoli for brooding.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 24, 2020, 08:59:39 AM
I can't participate much because I am not good at this. I just can't tell what is dark or light or whatever. I am not someone who remembers 1000 parameters of a given performance in case some asks something. I just like or I don't like and most of the time I don't even know why! Sometimes is because I am in the mood. So it's me, not the recording itself.

It's always been like this. I am different. For me cover art of the CD can be very important because it helps me with the mood. Bad cover art = bad mood = no enjoyment.  ;D

I have hardly anything to say.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2020, 09:55:41 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 24, 2020, 08:59:39 AMI have hardly anything to say.

Then the best decision would be to not say anything at all.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on May 25, 2020, 03:29:17 AM
I think I'm going to get the Sinopoli/Philharmonia/DG. I listened to a good bit of the first symphony from that recording yesterday and enjoyed it, a lot more than the Barenboim/LPO that I have. But why is the 2CD of the Sinopoli Elgar symphonies going for so expensive? I can't find it any cheaper than $30 used. It must have gone OOP pretty early on.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on May 25, 2020, 04:08:46 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 25, 2020, 03:29:17 AM
I think I'm going to get the Sinopoli/Philharmonia/DG. I listened to a good bit of the first symphony from that recording yesterday and enjoyed it, a lot more than the Barenboim/LPO that I have. But why is the 2CD of the Sinopoli Elgar symphonies going for so expensive? I can't find it any cheaper than $30 used. It must have gone OOP pretty early on.

I bought Boult's final performances of the symphonies as part of a box set of cassettes (can't remember why I chose that format, probably going cheap) many years ago. For a long time I haven't had any means of playing them so over the weekend I bought them on CD at a bargain price from Amazon UK - less than £8. Looking forward to hearing them again.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2020, 04:49:59 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 25, 2020, 03:29:17 AM
I think I'm going to get the Sinopoli/Philharmonia/DG. I listened to a good bit of the first symphony from that recording yesterday and enjoyed it, a lot more than the Barenboim/LPO that I have. But why is the 2CD of the Sinopoli Elgar symphonies going for so expensive? I can't find it any cheaper than $30 used. It must have gone OOP pretty early on.

German Amazon has several on offer for 8 Euro but then you have to figure in the usual outrageous shipping costs to the States:

https://www.amazon.de/gp/offer-listing/B000024ZB1/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used


Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 25, 2020, 05:14:59 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2020, 04:49:59 AM
German Amazon has several on offer for 8 Euro but then you have to figure in the usual outrageous shipping costs to the States:

https://www.amazon.de/gp/offer-listing/B000024ZB1/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used


Sarge

Maybe Amazon.ca could help here? Shipping should not be much to the states, right?

CDN$ 18.04 is about $13 + shipping...

https://www.amazon.ca/Symphony-South-Circumstance-Edward-Elgar/dp/B000024ZB1/ref=sr_1_20?keywords=elgar+sinopoli&qid=1590412100&s=music&sr=1-20
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2020, 05:21:13 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 25, 2020, 05:14:59 AM
Maybe Amazon.ca could help here?

Good idea.

Sarge
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 25, 2020, 05:29:27 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2020, 05:21:13 AM
Good idea.

Sarge

Thanks, hah!  ;D One has to have "good ideas" if you are not a millionaire and want to collect half-decent collections of CDs, DVDs, Blu-rays,...  0:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Ratliff on May 25, 2020, 02:57:35 PM
These mentions have been enough to give me an itch to hear the Sinopoli recordings, but as mentioned above, it seems to be one of those old out-of-print releases that is hard to find at an attractive price.

Barbirolli is my reference, he just seems to get it all right, although the CDs suffer from very early EMI digital transfers, which are far from ideal. (Barbirolli and Boult seem to suffer from the same problem, EMI prioritized their classic recordings highly and transferred very early in the CD era, then failed to revisit them.) I also have a number of other recordings that I have not heard, including Previn/LSO/Philips, Boult/Lyrita, Haitink/EMI. I guess I really don't have an urgent need for Sinopoli.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on May 25, 2020, 04:28:10 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on May 25, 2020, 02:57:35 PM
These mentions have been enough to give me an itch to hear the Sinopoli recordings, but as mentioned above, it seems to be one of those old out-of-print releases that is hard to find at an attractive price.

Barbirolli is my reference, he just seems to get it all right, although the CDs suffer from very early EMI digital transfers, which are far from ideal. (Barbirolli and Boult seem to suffer from the same problem, EMI prioritized their classic recordings highly and transferred very early in the CD era, then failed to revisit them.) I also have a number of other recordings that I have not heard, including Previn/LSO/Philips, Boult/Lyrita, Haitink/EMI. I guess I really don't have an urgent need for Sinopoli.

Hmm, you've made me realize that I ought to check out Barbirolli's recordings before pulling the trigger on Sinopoli, which I was really impressed with, but of course Barbirolli seems to have had somewhat of a special connection with Elgar.

Is the Symphony No.1 the same on both of these recordings?

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81CEOoCay9L._SS500_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lPq7DtM2L.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Ratliff on May 25, 2020, 07:59:26 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 25, 2020, 04:28:10 PM
Hmm, you've made me realize that I ought to check out Barbirolli's recordings before pulling the trigger on Sinopoli, which I was really impressed with, but of course Barbirolli seems to have had somewhat of a special connection with Elgar.

Is the Symphony No.1 the same on both of these recordings?

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81CEOoCay9L._SS500_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lPq7DtM2L.jpg)

You may or may not like Barbirolli's approach, but he was certainly immersed in this music. When I listen to his performance I get the feeling that he is truly inside the music, and he understands how every phrase and voice contributes to the whole.

I have the issue with the second cover you have linked (the individual disc) and I am pretty sure it is the same recording as the 2CD set. It is a 1962 recording.

I find myself exasperated because I have always listened to the 1962 and 1964 Barbirolli/Elgar Symphonies but I could swear I had managed to collect his earlier recordings. I think both Elgar symphonies were recorded by Barbirolli/Hale in the mid 1950's, but I can't find the discs, nor can I track down the releases of both symphonies.

Anyway, this is one to look out for, the 1954 recording of No 2. I can't find any release of a 1950's recording of No 1 with Barbirolli.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Y4j1iSL2L.jpg)

The more familiar 1964 recording of the second symphony looks like this:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71%2BBmH-ZP%2BL._SX522_.jpg)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kyjo on May 25, 2020, 08:24:23 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2020, 05:30:11 AM
With the proviso that we all tend to hear things differently, I suggest giving Sinopoli a try. I think it quite dark, slow and brooding.

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge. Hopefully the fact that it's relatively slow doesn't mean it lacks momentum, though!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on May 26, 2020, 01:06:47 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on May 25, 2020, 07:59:26 PM
You may or may not like Barbirolli's approach, but he was certainly immersed in this music. When I listen to his performance I get the feeling that he is truly inside the music, and he understands how every phrase and voice contributes to the whole.

I have the issue with the second cover you have linked (the individual disc) and I am pretty sure it is the same recording as the 2CD set. It is a 1962 recording.

I find myself exasperated because I have always listened to the 1962 and 1964 Barbirolli/Elgar Symphonies but I could swear I had managed to collect his earlier recordings. I think both Elgar symphonies were recorded by Barbirolli/Hale in the mid 1950's, but I can't find the discs, nor can I track down the releases of both symphonies.

Anyway, this is one to look out for, the 1954 recording of No 2. I can't find any release of a 1950's recording of No 1 with Barbirolli.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Y4j1iSL2L.jpg)

The more familiar 1964 recording of the second symphony looks like this:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71%2BBmH-ZP%2BL._SX522_.jpg)

According to discography I have (an Appendix to Life with Glorious John by Evelyn Barbirolli) Barbirolli recorded No 2 in June 1954 - I bought it as a lossless download from Pristine Classical. He recorded  No 1 in December 1956; it is part of the The Barbirolli Elgar Album (Dutton CDJSB 1017).

The EMI stereo versions are from 1962 and 1964; agree they desperately need remastering.

There is also a live performance of No 1 with the Halle, recorded on July 24 1970, just before his death (BBC Legends)



Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Ratliff on May 26, 2020, 05:37:59 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 26, 2020, 01:06:47 AM
According to discography I have (an Appendix to Life with Glorious John by Evelyn Barbirolli) Barbirolli recorded No 2 in June 1954 - I bought it as a lossless download from Pristine Classical. He recorded  No 1 in December 1956; it is part of the The Barbirolli Elgar Album (Dutton CDJSB 1017).

The EMI stereo versions are from 1962 and 1964; agree they desperately need remastering.

Do you have an opinion on whether the older recordings are sufficiently distinct from the later EMI recordings that they demand to be heard?

There is also a live performance of No 1 with the Halle, recorded on July 24 1970, just before his death (BBC Legends)

Thanks for that. Time I spent looking at on-line discographies and CD listings didn't turn up the recording of No 1. I guess that was a Pye recording.

Anyway, that brings me to my irritation that EMI, now Warner, never make a comprehensive Barbirolli box. I would be their first customer, particularly if some of the recordings not remastered since the early days could get some attention.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on May 26, 2020, 06:56:18 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on May 26, 2020, 05:37:59 AM
Thanks for that. Time I spent looking at on-line discographies and CD listings didn't turn up the recording of No 1. I guess that was a Pye recording.

Anyway, that brings me to my irritation that EMI, now Warner, never make a comprehensive Barbirolli box. I would be their first customer, particularly if some of the recordings not remastered since the early days could get some attention.

It was a Pye Golden Guinea release (GSGC 14052). It was recorded in 1956 but for some reason not released until 1966. It is now in a Barbirolli Society album as detailed above.

I wouldn't be interested in a Big Barbirolli Box, there would be far too much duplication. I would like newly remastered version so Elgar 1 & 2 and RVW 2 & 5.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 26, 2020, 09:09:34 AM
I have the Symphonies conducted by Barbirolli in the 30 CD EMI boxset and the liner notes say Symphony 1 was recorded (first released?) in 1963 and Symphony 2 in 1964. Both are digitally remastered in 1993.

I haven't listened to these performaces recently, but I remember the sound quality to be rather bad and I think I prefer Boult over Barbirolli in Elgar and the Boult performances I have are from the late 70's and have better sound (still not perfect for a digital age child like me).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Ratliff on May 26, 2020, 10:19:56 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 26, 2020, 09:09:34 AM
I have the Symphonies conducted by Barbirolli in the 30 CD EMI boxset and the liner notes say Symphony 1 was recorded (first released?) in 1963 and Symphony 2 in 1964. Both are digitally remastered in 1993.

I haven't listened to these performaces recently, but I remember the sound quality to be rather bad and I think I prefer Boult over Barbirolli in Elgar and the Boult performances I have are from the late 70's and have better sound (still not perfect for a digital age child like me).

Recorded August 28 and 19, 1962 and April 20 and 21, 1964, both in Kingsway Hall.

I find that EMI recordings from the 60's made in Kingsway Hall can be splendid when correctly remastered. Regrettably those CDs were remastered at a time when there was a tendency to make them sound brighter than they did on LP, which was supposed to make them more "digitalish." Nevertheless, I generally find Barbirolli's recordings to be sufficiently special to merit suffering non-ideal audio.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 26, 2020, 10:45:42 AM
Quote from: kyjo on May 25, 2020, 08:24:23 PM
Thanks, Sarge. Hopefully the fact that it's relatively slow doesn't mean it lacks momentum, though!

I personally couldn't get into Sinopoli's Elgar. Sinopoli was a very good conductor, but not everything he recorded was worth hearing or, in this case, hearing again, and, sadly for me, his Elgar is no exception. The Sarge tends to favor slower tempi and that's fine because that's his preference, but I'm more straddling on the line of sometimes enjoying faster tempi and sometimes enjoying slower tempi. It's all a matter of how convincing the performance is. My problem with really slow tempi is it does rob the music of momentum and forward motion whereas a bit swifter tempo can create a more impactful 'punch' if you will. Again, we all have our preferences and let your own ears be the judge. I do still strongly suggest that Andrew Davis 2nd with The Philharmonia. I think you'll enjoy it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on May 26, 2020, 12:43:34 PM
I ended up ordering the Sinopoli Elgar 1 & 2 w/ the original covers for pretty cheap.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VNDQZc5h/ey-Jid-WNr-ZXQi-Oi-Jwcm-Vzd-G8t-Y292-ZXIta-W1h-Z2-Vz-Iiwia2-V5-Ijoi-ODA4-Mj-I1-MS4x-Lmpw-Zy-Is-Im-Vka-XRz-Ijp7-In-Jlc2l6-ZSI6ey-J3.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ryvmN5Br/ey-Jid-WNr-ZXQi-Oi-Jwcm-Vzd-G8t-Y292-ZXIta-W1h-Z2-Vz-Iiwia2-V5-Ijoi-ODA4-Mj-Iy-MS4x-Lmpw-Zy-Is-Im-Vka-XRz-Ijp7-In-Jlc2l6-ZSI6ey-J3.jpg)

Excited to spend more time with the music. I really liked what I heard. A very lush approach that I can only describe as "floral". Definitely sounds a lot better than the Barenboim/LPO that I have.

Oddly, Barbirolli didn't do it for me when I listened earlier. I do love his Mahler and his Elgar Sea Pictures with Janet Baker. Maybe I'll come back to it in time. I am really not much of an Elgar guy but I suspect there is something there in his music that is worth my time and repeated listening efforts.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Ratliff on May 26, 2020, 01:02:48 PM
Tempting me with that Sinopoli again. :)

I have to keep reminding myself how many unheard Elgar Symphony recordings I have. I just remembered I have Slatkin and Zinman/Baltimore as well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kyjo on May 26, 2020, 04:55:34 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 26, 2020, 10:45:42 AM
I personally couldn't get into Sinopoli's Elgar. Sinopoli was a very good conductor, but not everything he recorded was worth hearing or, in this case, hearing again, and, sadly for me, his Elgar is no exception. The Sarge tends to favor slower tempi and that's fine because that's his preference, but I'm more straddling on the line of sometimes enjoying faster tempi and sometimes enjoying slower tempi. It's all a matter of how convincing the performance is. My problem with really slow tempi is it does rob the music of momentum and forward motion whereas a bit swifter tempo can create a more impactful 'punch' if you will. Again, we all have our preferences and let your own ears be the judge. I do still strongly suggest that Andrew Davis 2nd with The Philharmonia. I think you'll enjoy it.

Yeah, a quick glance at the timings of the Sinopoli recording was a bit of a turnoff for me. Such an expansive work as Elgar's 2nd needs a relatively taut approach in order not to "sprawl", imo. Although, of course, timings aren't everything!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on May 26, 2020, 06:24:45 PM
Quote from: kyjo on May 26, 2020, 04:55:34 PM
Yeah, a quick glance at the timings of the Sinopoli recording was a bit of a turnoff for me. Such an expansive work as Elgar's 2nd needs a relatively taut approach in order not to "sprawl", imo. Although, of course, timings aren't everything!

I do enjoy the Sinopoli; I don't feel that he "dawdles" at all.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on May 26, 2020, 07:29:32 PM
Quote from: kyjo on May 26, 2020, 04:55:34 PM
Yeah, a quick glance at the timings of the Sinopoli recording was a bit of a turnoff for me. Such an expansive work as Elgar's 2nd needs a relatively taut approach in order not to "sprawl", imo. Although, of course, timings aren't everything!

Indeed. Let me know what you think of the Andrew Davis/Philharmonia performance whenever you get the chance.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on May 27, 2020, 01:25:34 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on May 26, 2020, 10:19:56 AM
Recorded August 28 and 19, 1962 and April 20 and 21, 1964, both in Kingsway Hall.

I find that EMI recordings from the 60's made in Kingsway Hall can be splendid when correctly remastered. Regrettably those CDs were remastered at a time when there was a tendency to make them sound brighter than they did on LP, which was supposed to make them more "digitalish." Nevertheless, I generally find Barbirolli's recordings to be sufficiently special to merit suffering non-ideal audio.


+1 for that. I actually prefer Barbirolli's earlier recording of No 2 as a performance - no problem with the sound for me.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 27, 2020, 01:54:32 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 26, 2020, 06:24:45 PM
I do enjoy the Sinopoli; I don't feel that he "dawdles" at all.

+1
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 27, 2020, 03:20:44 AM
Since Sinopoli creates such a spicy discussion here:

Sinopoli's name gives me assosiations of onion, because in Finnish language onion is "sipuli", one of the only words in our strange language that come form Latin ("cepa" for union). In Italian we have "cipólla" and in Spanish "cebolla" which is no wonder as these languages are close to Latin, but somehow the word travelled to Baltia and Finland: "cebula" in Polish, "sibul" in Estonian and "sipuli" in Finnish.

I have Elgar's 2nd Symphony by Sinopoli and someday I might revisit it, but currently I'm "busy" with Atterberg...  :P
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: JohnP on May 28, 2020, 06:33:16 AM
I recommend James Hamilton-Paterson's wonderfully entertaining Gerontius, a fictional account of Elgar's 1923 journey along the River Amazon.

In it he writes something very interesting about the popular image of Elgar.

"'I can tell you - it's like dining with a time- bomb,' she said. 'It's up to you to guess when it's due to go off.'

'He is a genius,' said her friend emolliently.

'A bloody rude one.'

.....'What I meant Kate dear, is that I recognised his presence at once. He never said much at all during those rehearsals- he just sort of smouldered and now and again clapped a hand to his brow when someone did something silly. Actually I rather think he once turned his back in the lot of us when we missed an entry and various people had to trot up to pacify him and turn him around.

'That part at least sounds like our passenger,' Kate said.

'But that isn't the part I mean. When the actual performance was going well and we all had that feeling, you know? - as if nobody can put a foot wrong? - he was extraordinary. That little figure on the podium in the distance looked apart in some way but at the same time we realised he was controlling the lot of us. We were all completely in his service and for as long as we could give ourselves up to his spirit or his musical vision or whatever it was the whole thing became absolutely magnetic. By the end we all felt exalted, too. Personally I never slept a wink that night. And from then until the other day I never clapped eyes on him. Yet when we were introduced it was that odd quality which hit me at once and even after so long I remembered it. I can't explain it better than that.'

'I'll allow he has a certain something about him,' admitted Kate, 'but in all honesty I do t know whether that isn't just because I know who he is. One's unfairly disposed to detect all sorts of qualities in the famous simply because they're famous, while all they might actually have done was invent a mutton extract for a South Polar expedition.'

'Exactly,' said an Acquaintance. 'Or dissolve a wife or two in a bath of acid.'

'One thing you can say about him him - he looks like nobody's idea of a composer.'

'I suppose not,' said Fora. 'But I'm not sure how a composer should look. That Beethovenesque romantic hero - you know, tousled hair, wind-tattered cloak, shaking his fist at lightening and generally living in squalor - that would frankly look pretty silly in Nineteen twenty-three, wouldn't it?'

'Granted. But even so you don't expect him to look like a retired general full of equine anecdotes about linseed oil and skimmed milk and ante-post betting.'

Dora said: 'I still don't think there's any point in applying ordinary standards of behaviour to completely extraordinary people. Look at all that music he's given the world which they'll still be playing long after we're forgotten. You can teach even quite stupid children to say please and thank- you and hold doors open for ladies and generally ape being a good little social animal, but who can you train to write The Dream of Gerontius or even Land of Hope and Glory?'

'I still think it hurts nobody to be moderately polite.'

'Dora's got a point,' said another Acquaintance who had so far not spoken. 'Surely a genius is someone whose gift is so commanding, so overwhelming that there's no space or energy left over for bothering with niceties. Most of the geniuses one can think of were pretty odd in one way or another. You'd have said the y were half crazy if they hadn't been writing or painting or composing works which were obviously of greater importance than the unconventional private life of the man who created them.'
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 28, 2020, 09:38:14 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 27, 2020, 03:20:44 AM

Sinopoli's name gives me assosiations of union, because in Finnish language union is "sipuli", one of the only words in our strange language that come form Latin ("cepa" for union). In Italian we have "cipólla" and in Spanish "cebolla" which is no wonder as these languages are close to Latin, but somehow the word travelled to Baltia and Finland: "cebula" in Polish, "sibul" in Estonian and "sipuli" in Finnish.

You mean onion, not union!

Quote from: JohnP on May 28, 2020, 06:33:16 AM
I recommend James Hamilton-Paterson's wonderfully entertaining Gerontius, a fictional account of Elgar's 1923 journey along the River Amazon.

I'm aware of that book, but I haven't read it. Thanks for the excerpt.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on May 28, 2020, 09:56:24 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 28, 2020, 09:38:14 AM
You mean onion, not union!

Yes, Onion. Thanks!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 06:52:22 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 26, 2020, 09:09:34 AM
I have the Symphonies conducted by Barbirolli in the 30 CD EMI boxset and the liner notes say Symphony 1 was recorded (first released?) in 1963 and Symphony 2 in 1964. Both are digitally remastered in 1993.

I haven't listened to these performaces recently, but I remember the sound quality to be rather bad and I think I prefer Boult over Barbirolli in Elgar and the Boult performances I have are from the late 70's and have better sound (still not perfect for a digital age child like me).

Ah, but if Barbirolli's Sospiri doesn't melt your face, I don't know what will! By the way, I have no problems with the fidelity of Barbirolli's later Elgar recordings. There's a certain spirit about these performances that I think sounds right to my ears. FWIW, I do love Boult in Elgar, too. I have no preference for one over the other. There are more ways to interpret Elgar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on December 20, 2020, 12:14:48 AM
The one recording of Elgar that Barbirolli stands supreme is Falstaff.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on December 20, 2020, 12:30:42 AM
As with VW, I like both Boult and Barbirolli in the Elgar symphonies. I've never owned the Boult Lyrita set on either LP or CD and am curious about that one. Barbirolli's 'Sospiri' is indeed very beautiful.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 20, 2020, 02:05:29 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2020, 06:52:22 PM
Ah, but if Barbirolli's Sospiri doesn't melt your face, I don't know what will! By the way, I have no problems with the fidelity of Barbirolli's later Elgar recordings. There's a certain spirit about these performances that I think sounds right to my ears. FWIW, I do love Boult in Elgar, too. I have no preference for one over the other. There are more ways to interpret Elgar.

Barbirolli's Sospiri is indeed great as a performance, but to my ears again there are "issues" with the sound. There's some midrange resonances and the recording could have more bass and less treble. Sospiri is relatively simple music (but utterly beautiful) and shouldn't be difficult to do well. I have a feeling Barbirolli is great in the simpler Elgar creating the "spirit" you mention while Boult is perhaps better in understanding Elgar's more complex works.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on December 20, 2020, 06:16:11 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 20, 2020, 12:30:42 AM
As with VW, I like both Boult and Barbirolli in the Elgar symphonies. I've never owned the Boult Lyrita set on either LP or CD and am curious about that one. Barbirolli's 'Sospiri' is indeed very beautiful.

Legend has it that Richard Itter upset Boult by insisting that violins be configured left and right for both recordings. Boult, it is said, had a temper and as he didn't get his own way and this is reflected in the music with an added edge. I'm not sure, the Lyrita recordings are more immediate and very good, but for me, the late EMI recordings are special. Sir Adrian knew this was his last word on music being part of his being during a very long life, the wisdom of his interpretations are very special.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2020, 06:23:40 AM
Quote from: Irons on December 20, 2020, 12:14:48 AM
The one recording of Elgar that Barbirolli stands supreme is Falstaff.

I'm not sure if want to listen to this performance or Boult's today as I do need to revisit Falstaff. I'll probably listen to both! ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2020, 06:44:11 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 20, 2020, 02:05:29 AM
Barbirolli's Sospiri is indeed great as a performance, but to my ears again there are "issues" with the sound. There's some midrange resonances and the recording could have more bass and less treble. Sospiri is relatively simple music (but utterly beautiful) and shouldn't be difficult to do well. I have a feeling Barbirolli is great in the simpler Elgar creating the "spirit" you mention while Boult is perhaps better in understanding Elgar's more complex works.

I have found the 'simpler' the music is, the harder it is to perform well. Barbirolli is great is all of the Elgar I've heard, so you can put away any of those preconceived notions you may have about his Elgar. Also, I have no issues with the fidelity of the recording. What I can barely listen to are those classical recordings from the early part of the 20th Century. Boult is no slouch in Elgar either, but I wouldn't want to be choose between these two great Elgarians.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2020, 06:46:31 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 20, 2020, 12:30:42 AM
As with VW, I like both Boult and Barbirolli in the Elgar symphonies. I've never owned the Boult Lyrita set on either LP or CD and am curious about that one. Barbirolli's 'Sospiri' is indeed very beautiful.

I liked the Boult recordings of the symphonies on Lyrita, but I still prefer the later recordings on EMI.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on December 20, 2020, 07:43:05 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 20, 2020, 06:46:31 AM
I liked the Boult recordings of the symphonies on Lyrita, but I still prefer the later recordings on EMI.

I probably have 'first recording' syndrome. I bought the Lyrita as LPs and for years they were the only recordings of the Elgar symphonies I owned and so listened to them numerous times. I later bought the Boult/EMI as part of a set of cassettes and greatly enjoyed them. For many years I haven't been able to play cassettes (though I still have them!) and it is only very recently I bought the CDs and re-aquainted myself. They are very fine performances, rather more opulent than the Lyrita; I am glad I have both.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2020, 10:23:39 AM
Quote from: Biffo on December 20, 2020, 07:43:05 AM
I probably have 'first recording' syndrome. I bought the Lyrita as LPs and for years they were the only recordings of the Elgar symphonies I owned and so listened to them numerous times. I later bought the Boult/EMI as part of a set of cassettes and greatly enjoyed them. For many years I haven't been able to play cassettes (though I still have them!) and it is only very recently I bought the CDs and re-aquainted myself. They are very fine performances, rather more opulent than the Lyrita; I am glad I have both.

I just think there's a specialness to those later Boult recordings that I can't put into words other than to say they feel right to my ears.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 01:40:02 PM
What a pile of horse shit this video is:

https://www.youtube.com/v/Ar3HqhHTsI0

And this one as well:

https://www.youtube.com/v/pzs95_Qj9lk

Slatkin as the best overall 2nd symphony performance? Ummm...no. These two videos show Hurwitz has zero understanding of the composer and the complexities of his music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 21, 2020, 01:57:43 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 01:40:02 PM
What a pile of horse shit this video is:

https://www.youtube.com/v/Ar3HqhHTsI0

And this one as well:

https://www.youtube.com/v/pzs95_Qj9lk

Slatkin as the best overall 2nd symphony performance? Ummm...no. These two videos show Hurwitz has zero understanding of the composer and the complexities of his music.

Apparently Slatkin is a personal friend so Hurtwiz's view is "coloured".  But it is a good version no doubt.  But as ever he taints valid opinions with summary dismissals and gross generalisations.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 02:06:24 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 21, 2020, 01:57:43 PM
Apparently Slatkin is a personal friend so Hurtwiz's view is "coloured".  But it is a good version no doubt.  But as ever he taints valid opinions with summary dismissals and gross generalisations.

Gotcha, now the Slatkin ass kissing makes sense.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on December 21, 2020, 02:08:02 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 01:40:02 PM
What a pile of horse shit this video is:



Don't hold back John - say what you really mean. :D

On a more serious note, I give the man some credit for including Elgar's as one of the greatest violin concertos of the 20th century. Also completely taken by surprise for his praise for the Hugh Bean/Charles Groves recording. Not that praise is not due, I love the recording, but hardly ever gets mentioned at all anywhere. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on December 21, 2020, 02:11:07 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 21, 2020, 01:57:43 PM
Apparently Slatkin is a personal friend so Hurtwiz's view is "coloured".  But it is a good version no doubt.  But as ever he taints valid opinions with summary dismissals and gross generalisations.

He put Slatkin top of the RVW box pile too.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 02:12:15 PM
Quote from: Irons on December 21, 2020, 02:08:02 PM
Don't hold back John - say what you really mean. :D

On a more serious note, I give the man some credit for including Elgar's as one of the greatest violin concertos of the 20th century. Also completely taken by surprise for his praise for the Hugh Bean/Charles Groves recording. Not that praise is not due, I love the recording, but hardly ever gets mentioned at all anywhere.

:D

Yes, I do think Elgar's VC is an outstanding work and I actually prefer it to his more popular Cello Concerto. I should revisit that Bean/Groves performance. I have it somewhere.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on December 21, 2020, 02:14:58 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 02:12:15 PM
:D

Yes, I do think Elgar's VC is an outstanding work and I actually prefer it to his more popular Cello Concerto. I should revisit that Bean/Groves performance. I have it somewhere.

I listen to the VC more so I guess I do.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on December 21, 2020, 02:15:18 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 20, 2020, 10:23:39 AM
I just think there's a specialness to those later Boult recordings that I can't put into words other than to say they feel right to my ears.
Thanks John and Biffo for your thoughts on the Lyrita recordings.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 02:18:12 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 21, 2020, 02:15:18 PM
Thanks John and Biffo for your thoughts on the Lyrita recordings.

8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 22, 2020, 02:12:06 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 21, 2020, 02:12:15 PM
:D

Yes, I do think Elgar's VC is an outstanding work and I actually prefer it to his more popular Cello Concerto. I should revisit that Bean/Groves performance. I have it somewhere.

The Bean/Groves has long been a favourite version of mine.  Likewise the great Campoli recording and the Albert Sammons (Bean's teacher) - all superb.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2020, 06:42:20 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 22, 2020, 02:12:06 AM
The Bean/Groves has long been a favourite version of mine.  Likewise the great Campoli recording and the Albert Sammons (Bean's teacher) - all superb.

Very nice. Have you heard the Little/Davis recording on Chandos? This is my current reference for this concerto, but I'm a big fan of Little's playing in general. I think she does a good job of navigating the complicated emotional makeup of this work.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 22, 2020, 12:05:09 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2020, 06:42:20 AM
Very nice. Have you heard the Little/Davis recording on Chandos? This is my current reference for this concerto, but I'm a big fan of Little's playing in general. I think she does a good job of navigating the complicated emotional makeup of this work.

I have both Bean/Groves* and Little/Davis, but somehow I haven't listened to them much. In fact I don't even remember having listened to these recordings! Weird. Both are relatively new purchases. That's one interesting thing to do in the near future: To compare these two and see if they make Dong-Suk Kang/Leaper** on Naxos sound "piss-poor" in comparison.  :P

* In the 30 CD EMI Elgar box.
** This was my first Elgar CD ever. I got it in Christmas 1996 as a present from my dad. I had heard Enigma Variations on radio a few weeks earlier and it had changed my life. The whole December 1996 I has talking about Elgar and how I must explore his music because Enigma Variations was just super-promising. I just knew Elgar is my favorite. So my dad got this for me for Christmas and it was such a wonderful way to dive into the music of Elgar! That's why the disc is special to me and it takes miracles to make me call it piss-poor.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2020, 12:46:15 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 22, 2020, 12:05:09 PM
I have both Bean/Groves* and Little/Davis, but somehow I haven't listened to them much. In fact I don't even remember having listened to these recordings! Weird. Both are relatively new purchases. That's one interesting thing to do in the near future: To compare these two and see if they make Dong-Suk Kang/Leaper** on Naxos sound "piss-poor" in comparison.  :P

* In the 30 CD EMI Elgar box.
** This was my first Elgar CD ever. I got it in Christmas 1996 as a present from my dad. I had heard Enigma Variations on radio a few weeks earlier and it had changed my life. The whole December 1996 I has talking about Elgar and how I must explore his music because Enigma Variations was just super-promising. I just knew Elgar is my favorite. So my dad got this for me for Christmas and it was such a wonderful way to dive into the music of Elgar! That's why the disc is special to me and it takes miracles to make me call it piss-poor.

Okay, I get it. You can leave the 'piss poor' comments alone. It wasn't the best phrase to describe what I would call passable performances. Anyway, yes, that EMI set would be a nice way to dive into Elgar's music as there are many fantastic performances, but, unfortunately, it's OOP, so they'll have to find another way in.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on December 22, 2020, 01:23:29 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2020, 12:46:15 PM
Okay, I get it. You can leave the 'piss poor' comments alone. It wasn't the best phrase to describe what I would call passable performances. Anyway, yes, that EMI set would be a nice way to dive into Elgar's music as there are many fantastic performances, but, unfortunately, it's OOP, so they'll have to find another way in.

Naxos wouldn't have become the giant it is today had they released tons of piss-poor recordings. They managed to release "good enough" recordings and people bought their releases in volumes and the rest is history. "Passable performance" is certainly a better phrase, but I think even it demonstrates a condescending attitude toward the label. Is it fair to evaluate a label based on how they do Mahler or Bruckner when those releases hardly represents the "areas of excelence" of the said label and you have tons of great recordings elsewhere to choose (meaning homework)?

I did not know the Elgar box is already OOP. Shocking! I didn't hurry to buy it, but when I bought it on March 3, 2011 for 37.33 euros delivered it was easily available.  :)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2020, 02:04:31 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 22, 2020, 01:23:29 PMI did not know the Elgar box is already OOP. Shocking! I didn't hurry to buy it, but when I bought it on March 3, 2011 for 37.33 euros delivered it was easily available.  :)

I never needed to own it, but it's unfortunate that someone who is new to Elgar wouldn't be able to buy this set since it's OOP.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on December 23, 2020, 01:39:55 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 22, 2020, 12:05:09 PM
I have both Bean/Groves* and Little/Davis, but somehow I haven't listened to them much. In fact I don't even remember having listened to these recordings! Weird. Both are relatively new purchases. That's one interesting thing to do in the near future: To compare these two and see if they make Dong-Suk Kang/Leaper** on Naxos sound "piss-poor" in comparison.  :P

* In the 30 CD EMI Elgar box.
** This was my first Elgar CD ever. I got it in Christmas 1996 as a present from my dad. I had heard Enigma Variations on radio a few weeks earlier and it had changed my life. The whole December 1996 I has talking about Elgar and how I must explore his music because Enigma Variations was just super-promising. I just knew Elgar is my favorite. So my dad got this for me for Christmas and it was such a wonderful way to dive into the music of Elgar! That's why the disc is special to me and it takes miracles to make me call it piss-poor.

Some father to give such a fulfilling and life-enhancing Christmas present.

I mentioned on another thread that sometimes a composer's most popular work is disparaged because it is popular! I haven't searched but wonder how often Enigma Variations pop up on this thread and others.

On the subject of the VC Ida Haendel is an interesting one. When I first heard it I thought it too slow, but over time I have come to the realisation that with the help of Boult she has more to say then many other versions.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 23, 2020, 04:34:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2020, 06:42:20 AM
Very nice. Have you heard the Little/Davis recording on Chandos? This is my current reference for this concerto, but I'm a big fan of Little's playing in general. I think she does a good job of navigating the complicated emotional makeup of this work.

Yes I know the Little recording.  I have to say I preferred Little's playing earlier in her career.  On a purely personal level, I am not so enamoured of her sound/vibrato as I was.  Her Elgar as an interpretation is good but it would not make my top 5 or probably top 10 performances and I find the inclusion of the "alternative" version of the last movement cadenza a perfect example of an irrelevant/pointless USP.  I think  I've mentioned it before - in the mid-80's I worked fairly briefly for the agency who represented Oscar Shumsky in the UK.  He was keen to do the Elgar with Andrew Davis but that never materialised.  I think that would have been rather special

Responding to other recent comments in this thread.  No way is Kang with Leaper "piss-poor".  I enjoy it as a performance - yes the orchestral playing does not sound as full or confident as some but that does not dismiss or negate the artistic value.  Kang is a fine player - good enough to appear on BIS several times so no way a "bargain basement" player.  Also - someone said something about not judging Naxos by their Mahler or Bruckner.  Worth remembering that their Tintner Bruckner and Wit Mahler is actually well received and rather fine.  I would say the reverse is often true.  "Big" names on "Big" labels sometimes get adulatory reviews simply because of the perceived status of artist and label which is not always merited......
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2020, 06:59:21 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 23, 2020, 04:34:31 AM
Yes I know the Little recording.  I have to say I preferred Little's playing earlier in her career.  On a purely personal level, I am not so enamoured of her sound/vibrato as I was.  Her Elgar as an interpretation is good but it would not make my top 5 or probably top 10 performances and I find the inclusion of the "alternative" version of the last movement cadenza a perfect example of an irrelevant/pointless USP.  I think  I've mentioned it before - in the mid-80's I worked fairly briefly for the agency who represented Oscar Shumsky in the UK.  He was keen to do the Elgar with Andrew Davis but that never materialised.  I think that would have been rather special

Responding to other recent comments in this thread.  No way is Kang with Leaper "piss-poor".  I enjoy it as a performance - yes the orchestral playing does not sound as full or confident as some but that does not dismiss or negate the artistic value.  Kang is a fine player - good enough to appear on BIS several times so no way a "bargain basement" player.  Also - someone said something about not judging Naxos by their Mahler or Bruckner.  Worth remembering that their Tintner Bruckner and Wit Mahler is actually well received and rather fine.  I would say the reverse is often true.  "Big" names on "Big" labels sometimes get adulatory reviews simply because of the perceived status of artist and label which is not always merited......

We all hear pieces different. I've always loved her playing whether it was 30 years ago or today. I think she brings a wealth of emotion and personal experience to this concerto. Not many I can say match her except maybe the Bean/Groves performance, which I do think highly of. I haven't heard any other performances that have done much for me. This is one of the most difficult concerti to pull off.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 23, 2020, 02:07:17 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 23, 2020, 06:59:21 AM
We all hear pieces different. I've always loved her playing whether it was 30 years ago or today. I think she brings a wealth of emotion and personal experience to this concerto. Not many I can say match her except maybe the Bean/Groves performance, which I do think highly of. I haven't heard any other performances that have done much for me. This is one of the most difficult concerti to pull off.

For sure this is a very hard concerto to play successfully - technically very demanding and at the same time emotionally elusive.  It responds to many differing interpretations - the Haendel mentioned above is wonderful but I very much like the earlier Zuckerman/Barenboim recording who play it as an out and out big Romantic concerto with the virtuosity emphasised.  Not an approach I would usually warm to but Zuckerman is so good that criticism seems churlish!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2020, 03:29:07 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 23, 2020, 02:07:17 PM
For sure this is a very hard concerto to play successfully - technically very demanding and at the same time emotionally elusive.  It responds to many differing interpretations - the Haendel mentioned above is wonderful but I very much like the earlier Zuckerman/Barenboim recording who play it as an out and out big Romantic concerto with the virtuosity emphasised.  Not an approach I would usually warm to but Zuckerman is so good that criticism seems churlish!

I don't think I've heard that Zuckerman/Barenboim recording. I know some like Barenboim's Elgar, but I never could get into it. Maybe a mental block? I don't know why.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on January 12, 2021, 03:18:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 23, 2020, 06:59:21 AM
We all hear pieces different. I've always loved her playing whether it was 30 years ago or today. I think she brings a wealth of emotion and personal experience to this concerto. Not many I can say match her except maybe the Bean/Groves performance, which I do think highly of. I haven't heard any other performances that have done much for me. This is one of the most difficult concerti to pull off.
I just checked out her website.  There's a short video in which she states that she had decided to extend the date of her retirement from concerts to the end of 2020 due to Covid and missed concerts....hoping to be able to reschedule concerts that she was unable to do earlier in the year.  Well, obviously, that didn't happen so am wondering whether or not she might extend her retirement date yet again?

PD
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2021, 07:52:40 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 12, 2021, 03:18:31 AM
I just checked out her website.  There's a short video in which she states that she had decided to extend the date of her retirement from concerts to the end of 2020 due to Covid and missed concerts....hoping to be able to reschedule concerts that she was unable to do earlier in the year.  Well, obviously, that didn't happen so am wondering whether or not she might extend her retirement date yet again?

PD

I'm not sure and, honestly, I had no idea of her retirement, so that is news to me. She certainly deserves more attention than she has received in the past. She has a sound that is totally her own and this is tough feat for anyone who has ever played the violin for a number of years.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on March 17, 2021, 05:14:16 PM
I just read with great interest an interview by violinist Renaud Capuçon about his new recording of the violin concerto (w. LSO, Rattle). This web page from Presto contains audio samples of the performance as well as of 2 historic performances discussed in the interview (Menuhin/Elgar and Sammons/Wood).

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/articles/3842--interview-renaud-capucon-on-elgar (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/articles/3842--interview-renaud-capucon-on-elgar)

I listened to these clips in succession and was astounded by the differences. Briefly: a far superior account of the violin part from Capuçon, with astounding precision and purity of tone in alt (check the clip of the 3rd movement). Menuhin in comparison is firm-toned yet his intonation wobbles as he reaches the highest notes.

But then compare the orchestral intro to the first movement: mushy and lethargic under Rattle, firm and resolute under Elgar, with much more forceful accents and energy, very good but rushed under Wood.

So, a remarkable soloist and a terrible conductor (the new release) vs lesser violinists but much better conducting under the composer. Of course a battle of the clips is no way to judge competing recordings, but the juxtaposition is so startling that it really made me pause.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 18, 2021, 12:04:43 AM
Quote from: André on March 17, 2021, 05:14:16 PM
I just read with great interest an interview by violinist Renaud Capuçon about his new recording of the violin concerto (w. LSO, Rattle). This web page from Presto contains audio samples of the performance as well as of 2 historic performances discussed in the interview (Menuhin/Elgar and Sammons/Wood).

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/articles/3842--interview-renaud-capucon-on-elgar (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/articles/3842--interview-renaud-capucon-on-elgar)

I listened to these clips in succession and was astounded by the differences. Briefly: a far superior account of the violin part from Capuçon, with astounding precision and purity of tone in alt (check the clip of the 3rd movement). Menuhin in comparison is firm-toned yet his intonation wobbles as he reaches the highest notes.

But then compare the orchestral intro to the first movement: mushy and lethargic under Rattle, firm and resolute under Elgar, with much more forceful accents and energy, very good but rushed under Wood.

So, a remarkable soloist and a terrible conductor (the new release) vs lesser violinists but much better conducting under the composer. Of course a battle of the clips is no way to judge competing recordings, but the juxtaposition is so startling that it really made me pause.

"Lesser violinists" - Menuhin and Sammons - not being contentious here Andre?!   Capuçon is very fine for sure but helped in no small part by digital recording/editing techniques and the like as well as a different ethos behind the whole idea of recording.  I don't actually know how much editing was expected or possible back on those earlier recordings.  One fact does remain both Menuhin and Sammons influenced generations of violinists to come in a way that I suspect Capuçon will not.  As I say a very fine player indeed but not one for the ages.  There is an interesting facebook group that celebrates 'old school' violinists and central to the debate is the idea that these players from an earlier generation had a substantially less secure technique to many modern players.   The consensus there seems to be that the best of the old school are the equal of the best of the new as far as technique is concerned but that the actual style was often more individual.  What I think is certainly true is that we (the wider listening public I mean) now expect/demand technical perfection first before considering musicality.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Biffo on March 18, 2021, 02:27:50 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 18, 2021, 12:04:43 AM
"Lesser violinists" - Menuhin and Sammons - not being contentious here Andre?!   Capuçon is very fine for sure but helped in no small part by digital recording/editing techniques and the like as well as a different ethos behind the whole idea of recording.  I don't actually know how much editing was expected or possible back on those earlier recordings.  One fact does remain both Menuhin and Sammons influenced generations of violinists to come in a way that I suspect Capuçon will not.  As I say a very fine player indeed but not one for the ages.  There is an interesting facebook group that celebrates 'old school' violinists and central to the debate is the idea that these players from an earlier generation had a substantially less secure technique to many modern players.   The consensus there seems to be that the best of the old school are the equal of the best of the new as far as technique is concerned but that the actual style was often more individual.  What I think is certainly true is that we (the wider listening public I mean) now expect/demand technical perfection first before considering musicality.

I suppose a professional will notice intonation etc far more than a non-performer like myself. I grew up with Menuhin/Boult and despite reading in Gramophone and the like that it wasn't as good as Menuhin/Elgar every time a recording (by anybody) of the concerto was reviewed I was completely happy. For years (decades?) it was the only recording I had. Eventually, I bought the Kennedy/Rattle recording but I have only listened to it a couple of times, it hasn't caught my imagination. More recently I bought Zehetmair/Elder and it is now my favourite version. I like the clean sound of this recording which is a bit odd as I usually prefer my Elgar to be opulent. More recently still, I acquired Menuhin/Elgar but find the historical sound a barrier to enjoyment; perhaps I will have to give it another try.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: MusicTurner on March 18, 2021, 06:24:18 AM
Concerning the Violin Concerto, I've always liked the sweeping Igor Oistrakh/Zhuk recording on Melodiya (!) a lot.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 18, 2021, 10:11:33 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on March 18, 2021, 06:24:18 AM
Concerning the Violin Concerto, I've always liked the sweeping Igor Oistrakh/Zhuk recording on Melodiya (!) a lot.

A unique coupling too I remember (at least in the Olympia incarnation) with a equally interesting Britten (different soloist) - I like them too!

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81Gy3h0GCeL._AC_SX466_.jpg)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: MusicTurner on March 18, 2021, 10:49:13 AM
It got a good review by Rob Barnett on Musicweb too ...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Daverz on March 18, 2021, 02:25:40 PM
I still like the first recording I acquired, Sitkovetsky with Menuhin conducting.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51vup5SY7yL.jpg)

Is Menuhin/Boult really that bad?  The intonation problems he had by then are well known. 

I'm very interested in finding that Oistrakh now.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on March 18, 2021, 04:26:39 PM
Graffin and Ehnes are superb in the concerto. They are my favourites among the 7 versions I own. I have ordered the Menuhin/Elgar, which I used to have in an EMI set of 4 lps featuring the composer as conductor.

BTW when I mentioned 'lesser violinist' I didn't mean 'lesser artist'. Menuhin's is still my go to version for the Kreutzer sonata (DG, with Kempff) even though some passages are cringe inducing. For me he owns the score.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 19, 2021, 02:06:26 AM
Absolutely agree - Graffin and Ehnes are excellent.  There are so many fine recordings of the Elgar Concerto.  The first I knew "properly" was Zukermann with Barenboim and I still love the big-hearted virtuosity of that.  But an enduring favourite (often mentioned here) is Hugh Bean.  Menuhin as a conductor is especially good at Elgar (even though by all accounts he was truly awful technically as a conductor) - his Symphonies with the RPO and also the cello conc/Enigma/In the South on Tring also with the RPO are very fine indeed.  I'll dig out this Sitkovetsky - I can imagine it being very good too.....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: MusicTurner on March 19, 2021, 05:57:34 AM
I think I got I.Oistrakh on LP as the first version of the work, later Bean and Chung  - that, and maybe Accardo/Hickox, is all I have, now with Igor on CD. Oistrakh's was probably bought in one of many raids in Hungarian, Czech or GDR LP shops in the old Eastern Block days. Often, when starting to collect classical music, the buyings can be a bit random, just to get and explore the repertoire. The Virgin label/Sitkovetsky has been quite well distributed say in the UK though, it's not really obscure I think.

I agree that it's one of the best violin concertos ever, and it would be in my Top-10 (btw, as opposed to Beethoven's, but that's another story ...).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: bhodges on March 19, 2021, 11:15:50 AM
Conductor Kenneth Woods just posted this concert, with Elgar miniatures for cello and strings, which will be up for four days. (The works with asterisks are only available to ESO subscribers.)

English Symphony Orchestra
Conductor: Kenneth Woods
Cello: Raphael Wallfisch

Programme:
– Chanson de Matin, Op.15 No.2
– Chanson de Nuit, Op.15 No.1
– The Wild Bears, Wand of Youth Suite No.2
– Nimrod, The Enigma Variations, Op.36
– Romance, Op.62
– Sospiri, Op.70
– Mazurka, Op.10 No.1
– Pleading, Op.48 *
– In Moonlight *
– Salut d'Amour, Op.12 *
– Adieu *

https://www.eso.co.uk/elgar-reimagined-1/

--Bruce
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 19, 2021, 12:17:21 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 19, 2021, 05:21:25 AM
I don't trust other people recommending stuff. This is especially true with Elgar. Most of the performances discussed here are unknown to me. I have enough performances of the Violin Concerto. I am the crazy guy who things Naxos can offer really good performances. I am the crazy guy who things it is pointless to waste your time on some distorted and noisy mono recordings from the 50's in 2021.

There are only a few composers I wish had more music for us to enjoy. Nikolaus Bruhns is one. Alban Berg is another. I wish Elgar had more symphonies. I wish he had more chamber music. It's crazy. Elgar wrote quite a lot of music, but it feels so little.

Sorry if I can't participate beyond my own ramblings. I should visit Tasmin Little again.

P.S. Half of the time I don't even understand where you find some of the obscure performances you are talking about. Why have you bought Sitkovetsky for example? The devil made you do it?

Sitkovetsky = very fine violinist
Menuhin = very good in Elgar
RPO as recorded on Virgin = a rich opulent sound well suited to the Elgar idiom
Add all the above together = worth a listen
Don't trust other people's opinions = fine - but to trust others opens the soul
PS: Leaper + Kang on Naxos = also very good (as is the other Naxos/Elgar violin concerto from the West Kazakhstan PO (!)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511G9jky-3L._AC_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 19, 2021, 03:52:33 PM
Quote from: Daverz on March 18, 2021, 02:25:40 PM
I still like the first recording I acquired, Sitkovetsky with Menuhin conducting.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51vup5SY7yL.jpg)


Just listened to this on Spotify. I think Sitkovetsky plays some anticipatory notes too aggressively instead of "fading them softly in", but otherwise he does well. The orchestra under Menuhin struggles to know what to do and things are emphasized oddly. The result sounds like the parts rather coherent sum of the parts. The sound quality is not stunning for a 1994 recording, but it is at least pleasant. Tempi are good. I'd say this is a good performance, but not so awesome as to making me want to add it to my Elgar collection.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Daverz on March 19, 2021, 05:31:39 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 19, 2021, 03:52:33 PM
Just listened to this on Spotify. I think Sitkovetsky plays some anticipatory notes too aggressively instead of "fading them softly in", but otherwise he does well. The orchestra under Menuhin struggles to know what to do and things are emphasized oddly. The result sounds like the parts rather coherent sum of the parts. The sound quality is not stunning for a 1994 recording, but it is at least pleasant. Tempi are good. I'd say this is a good performance, but not so awesome as to making me want to add it to my Elgar collection.

Thanks for the comments.  I listened to this again the other night, and, yeah, the sonics are rather opaque.

I have about a dozen other recordings on the music server.  The latest one is Nicola Benedetti.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2021, 05:56:29 PM
Quote from: André on March 17, 2021, 05:14:16 PM
I just read with great interest an interview by violinist Renaud Capuçon about his new recording of the violin concerto (w. LSO, Rattle). This web page from Presto contains audio samples of the performance as well as of 2 historic performances discussed in the interview (Menuhin/Elgar and Sammons/Wood).

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/articles/3842--interview-renaud-capucon-on-elgar (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/articles/3842--interview-renaud-capucon-on-elgar)

I listened to these clips in succession and was astounded by the differences. Briefly: a far superior account of the violin part from Capuçon, with astounding precision and purity of tone in alt (check the clip of the 3rd movement). Menuhin in comparison is firm-toned yet his intonation wobbles as he reaches the highest notes.

But then compare the orchestral intro to the first movement: mushy and lethargic under Rattle, firm and resolute under Elgar, with much more forceful accents and energy, very good but rushed under Wood.

So, a remarkable soloist and a terrible conductor (the new release) vs lesser violinists but much better conducting under the composer. Of course a battle of the clips is no way to judge competing recordings, but the juxtaposition is so startling that it really made me pause.

I wouldn't say Rattle is a terrible conductor --- this is just too harsh of a criticism. He has turned in some fantastic performances. For example, his Szymanowski is of a another planet. How he was able to get inside this music yet can make Debussy or Ravel sound trivial is beyond me. He's also quite good in Stravinsky and Janáček. He's good in Britten, but I think little of his other performances of British composers (not that I flock to British composers much these past few years in general).

Getting back to Elgar, I don't listen to his music very much, but when I was listening regularly, I favored two performances of the Violin Concerto: Hugh Bean/Groves on EMI and Tasmin Little/A. Davis on Chandos. I also liked the James Ehnes/A. Davis recording on Onyx. If I ever get in the mood to listen to Elgar again, which I don't foresee happening for a long-time, I'll have to revisit this VC and post some thoughts here.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidW on March 23, 2021, 04:46:23 AM
I agree MI.  I think that certain critics have overhyped Rattle, but he is not a bad conductor.  He is a good conductor, but when there are many great conductors it is not sufficient to be merely good.  Why waste time with such a conductor when there are so many finer recordings out there?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2021, 06:23:36 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 23, 2021, 04:46:23 AM
I agree MI.  I think that certain critics have overhyped Rattle, but he is not a bad conductor.  He is a good conductor, but when there are many great conductors it is not sufficient to be merely good.  Why waste time with such a conductor when there are so many finer recordings out there?

For me, it depends on the repertoire. If I were to listen to Bruckner or Wagner, would I listen to Rattle's recordings of these composers? Hell no. He's not on the level of a Karajan or Böhm.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidW on March 23, 2021, 07:00:12 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 23, 2021, 06:23:36 AM
For me, it depends on the repertoire. If I were to listen to Bruckner or Wagner, would I listen to Rattle's recordings of these composers? Hell no. He's not on the level of a Karajan or Böhm.

Exactly.  But as you pointed out he has made some excellent recordings though.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: André on March 23, 2021, 07:00:28 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 22, 2021, 05:56:29 PM
I wouldn't say Rattle is a terrible conductor --- this is just too harsh of a criticism. He has turned in some fantastic performances. For example, his Szymanowski is of a another planet. How he was able to get inside this music yet can make Debussy or Ravel sound trivial is beyond me. He's also quite good in Stravinsky and Janáček. He's good in Britten, but I think little of his other performances of British composers (not that I flock to British composers much these past few years in general).

Getting back to Elgar, I don't listen to his music very much, but when I was listening regularly, I favored two performances of the Violin Concerto: Hugh Bean/Groves on EMI and Tasmin Little/A. Davis on Chandos. I also liked the James Ehnes/A. Davis recording on Onyx. If I ever get in the mood to listen to Elgar again, which I don't foresee happening for a long-time, I'll have to revisit this VC and post some thoughts here.

I didn't either. I was referring specifically to the opening of the concerto in this particular recording. The extrapolation is yours, not mine. ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2021, 07:15:47 AM
Quote from: André on March 23, 2021, 07:00:28 AM
I didn't either. I was referring specifically to the opening of the concerto in this particular recording. The extrapolation is yours, not mine. ;)

Well, I just felt the need to come to Rattle's defense, but yes, I do realize now that you were referring this Elgar VC recording and not to Rattle's entire discography. ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 05, 2021, 02:56:35 AM
I have some of the historical recordings of Elgar conduction his own works. The sound quality has put me off listening to them much, but a week or so ago I got an idea:

Headphone spatiality has been my hobby for almost a decade now especially in the form of headphone crossfeed and how to mix music for headphones. I think I have gathered a solid understanding of headphone spatiality and human spatial hearing in general. So, why not try and write a Nyquist plugin to process monophonic recordings so that they have the "feel" of being stereophonic? Make the mono sound "diffuse" so that it sounds more like how monophonic recordings sound playing on speakers: The room acoustics create a diffuse reverberation sound field that has only statistically mono random left and right information.

The technical details of the plugin goes beyond Elgar's thread, but it was a success!  ;D I have been finetuning the parameters and the results are quite nice. The only problem is that diffusing the sound makes noise also diffuse and more noticeable, but otherwise the music becomes engaging and more natural. The plugin is designed for headphone listening, but it even work with speakers and in multichannel listening modes such as DTS Neo:6 Music spreads the music nicely to all my 5 speakers.

I have been listening to Elgar's first symphony conducted by himself in 1930 prosessed into diffuse mono and enjoying the performance like never before! Especially the Adagio is super-lovely. I haven't been much into recordings of mono era, but this can change that!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scion7 on October 10, 2021, 01:20:38 AM
^ What is needed is a time-machine equipped with the latest recording technology.  :P

In the meantime:

(https://i.postimg.cc/JzRzf26z/Zy-J9-LCJ0a-W1lc3-Rhb-XAi-Oj-E1-MDAy-OTA2-NTd9.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on October 10, 2021, 01:49:08 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on October 10, 2021, 01:20:38 AM
^ What is needed is a time-machine equipped with the latest recording technology.  :P

Haven't you watched the Back to the Future movies? What if Elgar being able to record with digital audio gear in 1930 leads to Nazis winning in WWII? Changing the history is tempting, but dangerous.   :o

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Scion7 on October 10, 2021, 03:59:50 PM
An English composer with records of high fidelity enabling National Socialism to overcome the vastly superior war material output of the Americans?  It ... it BAMBOOZLES the mind!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 06, 2022, 08:27:03 AM
Pretty much at random today I listened to this disc;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91psBP2gYVL._SS500_.jpg)

which led me to several passing ponders.......

1) Elgar was such a genius at writing smaller/slighter orchestral works that are a genuine delight (the 2 Dream Children pieces are gems).
2) Mackerras was very good at this repertoire and the orchestra of WNO are very well recorded by Decca/Argo
3) I prefer Bryn Terfel's voice from this early part of his career; young sounding, wonderfully easy range, excellent ennunciation and characterful word painting (soprano Alison Hagley is excellent too)
4) I wish it was still possible to hear incidental music performed live as part of a theatrical experience.  I know that the Royal Shakespeare Company and the The National Theatre do still use live music but that is very much the exception.......

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 07, 2022, 07:15:32 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 06, 2022, 08:27:03 AM
Pretty much at random today I listened to this disc;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91psBP2gYVL._SS500_.jpg)

which led me to several passing ponders.......

1) Elgar was such a genius at writing smaller/slighter orchestral works that are a genuine delight (the 2 Dream Children pieces are gems).
2) Mackerras was very good at this repertoire and the orchestra of WNO are very well recorded by Decca/Argo
3) I prefer Bryn Terfel's voice from this early part of his career; young sounding, wonderfully easy range, excellent ennunciation and characterful word painting (soprano Alison Hagley is excellent too)
4) I wish it was still possible to hear incidental music performed live as part of a theatrical experience.  I know that the Royal Shakespeare Company and the The National Theatre do still use live music but that is very much the exception.......

I don't know this MacKerras Argo disc, but I have The Wand of Youth suites by Bryden Thomson (Chandos), Vernon Handley (EMI) and James Judd (Naxos). I'll check this out...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 07, 2022, 10:15:49 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 07, 2022, 07:15:32 AM
I don't know this MacKerras Argo disc, but I have The Wand of Youth suites by Bryden Thomson (Chandos), Vernon Handley (EMI) and James Judd (Naxos). I'll check this out...

Those 3 versions are all very fine.  I like Handley's extended/complete Starlight Express too.  Boult's Wand of Youth is predictably excellent as well - but as far as I know he never recorded any of Starlight Express
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 09, 2022, 09:55:23 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 07, 2022, 10:15:49 AM
1. Those 3 versions are all very fine. 

2. I like Handley's extended/complete Starlight Express too. 

3. Boult's Wand of Youth is predictably excellent as well - but as far as I know he never recorded any of Starlight Express
1. Agreed.

2. I have that one, off course.  0:)

3. I don't think he did.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 10, 2022, 07:03:55 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 09, 2022, 09:55:23 PM
1. Agreed.

2. I have that one, off course.  0:)

3. I don't think he did.

Hey 71 dB, what is your opinion of the Elder Elgar recordings?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on January 11, 2022, 12:18:56 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 10, 2022, 07:03:55 PM
Hey 71 dB, what is your opinion of the Elder Elgar recordings?

I have five of those:

The Dream of Gerontius
The Apostles
The Kingdom
Symphony No. 2, Introduction and Allegro
The Music Makers, Froissart, Dream Children

These are solid performances with good sonics. Not always my absolute favorite performances, but close.  0:)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on January 11, 2022, 07:56:52 AM
https://youtu.be/ta0Xkw6yj3Q

A most thought provoking view of if not the greatest, most famous Elgar recording ever. What I found most interesting had nothing to do with Elgar, but the bit at the end when du Pré was presented with a score for a Haydn cello concerto.­
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Mirror Image on January 11, 2022, 08:16:33 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 11, 2022, 12:18:56 AM
I have five of those:

The Dream of Gerontius
The Apostles
The Kingdom
Symphony No. 2, Introduction and Allegro
The Music Makers, Froissart, Dream Children

These are solid performances with good sonics. Not always my absolute favorite performances, but close.  0:)

Very nice. I own them all and have been impressed by them for sure even if they don't displace favorite individual performances.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 04, 2022, 06:11:53 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 11, 2022, 07:56:52 AM
https://youtu.be/ta0Xkw6yj3Q

A most thought provoking view of if not the greatest, most famous Elgar recording ever. What I found most interesting had nothing to do with Elgar, but the bit at the end when du Pré was presented with a score for a Haydn cello concerto.­
You'll find this to be of interest and rather amusing I suspect.  I just ran across this same video (missed your post here).  This morning, a friend of mine told me about a video that he liked on you tube by the guy who owns Pearl Acoustics.  Well, it was a different video on youtube, but then I ran across the one about DuPre and Elgar!  lol  Needless to say, I enjoyed it.

One question I have:  he had talked about the problems that one occurs when one tries to go from recording 22 minutes on one side to I think it was 30 minutes--that you need to lower the volume on the cutter to avoid bleed through.  This may be more of a vinyl thread question, but I thought that I would bring it up here since you had posted a link to that video.  Mr. Lovegrove mentioned about issues with bleed through from what sounded like the other side of the LP and also the previous track.  I had thought that bleed through only occurred on the same side and the previous track (or possibly also not certain what it is called...pre-echo?).

In any event, I greatly enjoyed that video (Darn you for beating me to it!  ;) ).  And, yes, I do love her recording of it!  Interesting to hear about the orchestra's reactions too.  And Rostropovich's request to his record label!  :o  8)

PD
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on February 04, 2022, 07:44:31 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 04, 2022, 06:11:53 AM
You'll find this to be of interest and rather amusing I suspect.  I just ran across this same video (missed your post here).  This morning, a friend of mine told me about a video that he liked on you tube by the guy who owns Pearl Acoustics.  Well, it was a different video on youtube, but then I ran across the one about DuPre and Elgar!  lol  Needless to say, I enjoyed it.

One question I have:  he had talked about the problems that one occurs when one tries to go from recording 22 minutes on one side to I think it was 30 minutes--that you need to lower the volume on the cutter to avoid bleed through.  This may be more of a vinyl thread question, but I thought that I would bring it up here since you had posted a link to that video.  Mr. Lovegrove mentioned about issues with bleed through from what sounded like the other side of the LP and also the previous track.  I had thought that bleed through only occurred on the same side and the previous track (or possibly also not certain what it is called...pre-echo?).

In any event, I greatly enjoyed that video (Darn you for beating me to it!  ;) ).  And, yes, I do love her recording of it!  Interesting to hear about the orchestra's reactions too.  And Rostropovich's request to his record label!  :o  8)

PD

Brilliant! Pleased no end, PD  ;D that you enjoyed the video. Even if it wasn't me that inspired you to watch it. :(  ;)

Just think arguably the greatest cellist ever instructs his record company to withdraw a recording because a recording by a youngster half his age is so good! How proud must she have felt.

He raised a very important point (so do you). Unbelievably this was driven home to me the very same week I viewed his talk. DG in Karajan's 1962 recording of Beethoven's 8th Symphony chance their arm by placing the whole symphony on side 1. Side 2 is filled with overtures. My usual volume setting for both LP and CD is 15. For this recording I had to increase level to 16 which is unusual. Fabulous performance, but plays on my mind how more dynamic the sound if they only had dropped an overture and placed the fourth movement on side 2.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 08, 2022, 03:28:06 AM
Quote from: Irons on February 04, 2022, 07:44:31 AM
Brilliant! Pleased no end, PD  ;D that you enjoyed the video. Even if it wasn't me that inspired you to watch it. :(  ;)

Just think arguably the greatest cellist ever instructs his record company to withdraw a recording because a recording by a youngster half his age is so good! How proud must she have felt.

He raised a very important point (so do you). Unbelievably this was driven home to me the very same week I viewed his talk. DG in Karajan's 1962 recording of Beethoven's 8th Symphony chance their arm by placing the whole symphony on side 1. Side 2 is filled with overtures. My usual volume setting for both LP and CD is 15. For this recording I had to increase level to 16 which is unusual. Fabulous performance, but plays on my mind how more dynamic the sound if they only had dropped an overture and placed the fourth movement on side 2.
Interesting to hear that; so, it sounds like I should automatically turn up the volume control if a piece of music is on the longer side?  Or have you also noticed it with other types of music?  Like with chamber or solo instrument works?

And what are your thoughts about bleed through too?  Perhaps this would be best answered in the vinyl thread?

PD

p.s.  And, yes, amazing how she erased (crossed out?) timing instructions (re Haydn) and went with her gut instead...pretty darn cheeky too!

PD
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on March 09, 2022, 11:47:26 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/54uEEg9.jpg)

A superb account of the Violin Sonata. A husband and wife team of The Weiss Duo play Elgar to the manor born. Both from Chicago, Sidney Weiss was concertmaster of the Chicago SO from 1967 to 1972. I enjoy the velvety tone of his playing very much.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kyjo on March 10, 2022, 12:41:54 PM
The Violin Sonata is a wonderful work, especially the haunting, "ghostly" slow movement. The Piano Quintet is Elgar's Undoubted Chamber Masterpiece, but the Violin Sonata and String Quartet have much fine and characteristic music in them as well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on March 11, 2022, 12:14:40 AM
Quote from: kyjo on March 10, 2022, 12:41:54 PM
The Violin Sonata is a wonderful work, especially the haunting, "ghostly" slow movement. The Piano Quintet is Elgar's Undoubted Chamber Masterpiece, but the Violin Sonata and String Quartet have much fine and characteristic music in them as well.

All three works composed at Brinkwell cottage Elgar was renting at the time. Bellow a map drawn by Elgar to be used as directions for his mate WH Reed.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 11, 2022, 05:43:36 PM
Quote from: Irons on March 11, 2022, 12:14:40 AM
All three works composed at Brinkwell cottage Elgar was renting at the time. Bellow a map drawn by Elgar to be used as directions for his mate WH Reed.

Elgar was REALLY bad at drawing dogs!  :o  ;D  ???
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on March 13, 2022, 12:53:06 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 11, 2022, 05:43:36 PM
Elgar was REALLY bad at drawing dogs!  :o  ;D  ???

:D

I'll wager he draws a good pig! ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 13, 2022, 01:14:26 AM
Quote from: Irons on March 13, 2022, 12:53:06 AM
:D

I'll wager he draws a good pig! ;)

Yep, looks like dogs were epigma variations for Elgar...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on March 14, 2022, 12:59:09 AM
I recall enjoying this a few years ago, when I was looking for more of the background to the chamber pieces and cello concerto:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51a5L2PB6KL._SX341_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on March 31, 2022, 10:37:57 AM
David Hurwitz speaking about Elgar's Overtures on Chandos (Scottish National Orchestra / Sir Alexander Gibson)

I have that CD, but I haven't listened to it for years. Certainly time to revisit it in the near future!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DjrmUobFS4
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Maestro267 on September 12, 2022, 11:42:18 PM
I've listened to Sospiri a few times in total and so far I've yet to hear the organ in any of the recordings? Is it an ad lib part?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 12, 2022, 11:55:10 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on September 12, 2022, 11:42:18 PM
I've listened to Sospiri a few times in total and so far I've yet to hear the organ in any of the recordings? Is it an ad lib part?

Sospiri is often performed lighter than maybe intented* (a version for Violin and Piano is common). Nimbus Records has an Elgar disc "Works for String Orchestra" - English String Orchestra/William Boughton that has organ in Sospiri.

* String orchestra, harp and organ.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Maestro267 on September 13, 2022, 12:51:11 AM
That's the thing, all the liner notes say it calls for strings, harp and organ. I can hear the harp clearly in the recording I heard today (Barbirolli from early 60s on EMI) but not the organ.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 13, 2022, 02:28:52 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on September 13, 2022, 12:51:11 AM
That's the thing, all the liner notes say it calls for strings, harp and organ. I can hear the harp clearly in the recording I heard today (Barbirolli from early 60s on EMI) but not the organ.

Check out the Nimbus. You should hear the organ.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 13, 2022, 09:36:12 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on September 13, 2022, 12:51:11 AM
That's the thing, all the liner notes say it calls for strings, harp and organ. I can hear the harp clearly in the recording I heard today (Barbirolli from early 60s on EMI) but not the organ.

Sospiri is arguably Elgar's finest/most profound "miniature".  Dedicated to W H Reed (who helped with the preparation of the Vioin Concerto & Sonata and wrote "Elgar as I knew him") it was conceived as a companion piece to Salut d'Amour but became an Elegy of remarkable depth.  The score actually marks the organ as optional (and the harp can be played on a piano!).  From memory I can't recall if Barbirolli uses the organ or not but if he doesn't/its inaudible there is a precident for that.  While it does exist in a vioin & piano version it is best known and best appreciated in the string orchestral original.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on September 13, 2022, 12:25:34 PM
Enjoying the recently released Barbirolli Elgar box immensely. I almost remarked to myself that I have all the Elgar that I need for now, until I realized that I don't have a recording of the violin concerto. Any recommendations?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 13, 2022, 01:10:26 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 13, 2022, 12:25:34 PM
Enjoying the recently released Barbirolli Elgar box immensely. I almost remarked to myself that I have all the Elgar that I need for now, until I realized that I don't have a recording of the violin concerto. Any recommendations?

It depends how you perceive the work.....  Of the older recordings Menuhin with Elgar has to be heard but I love Albert Salmons with Henry Wood too.  Menuhin re-recorded the work with Boult but his technique was more fallible by then.  Boult also recorded it with Ida Haendel - always a great player.  Because Boult had 2 versions in the can already Groves was on the podium for Hugh Bean's wonderfully inward and subtle version - a real faourite of mine.  At much the same time Barenboim took over the stick with the LPO and Zuckerman produced a wonderfully fiery version - the polar opposite of Bean but tremendous.  Kennedy's first version with Handley is the better of his two.  Handley did another fine version "the original version" with Graffin and the RLPO - his sound is wonderful.  Gil Shaham is another favourite player and his is a fine version in Chicago which I prefer to the same orchestra's version with Barenboim and Perlman.  More unusual but very fine is Catherine Manoukian with the Staatskapelle Weimar - lovely to hear that rich German sound in this music.  Another absolute favourite player is James Ehnes who has technique to spare and the right kind of style for this work.

So if pushed - in no particular order I'd say:  Hugh Bean / James Ehnes / Pinchas Zuckerman with Graffin as first sub!

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRt-C7TVBq8izHLNTRFvvi9ucwtgoA1Mc29hA&usqp=CAU)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/710NLus9j2L._SS500_.jpg)(https://i.discogs.com/VVCJH1377CFNs-doIU--QhIuT0ROwULMhP-d6-TV9N4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:591/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTcwMjY3/ODctMTUxMzQzNjQx/MC03MzQ0LmpwZWc.jpeg)(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/eKAAAOSwJrFgmUdB/s-l500.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on September 14, 2022, 03:03:35 AM
^Thanks! I think I'll seek out the Bean or Ennes.

After having spent a bit of time with The Dream of Gerontius and finding it highly impressive, I'm curious what, if any of, Elgar's other choral music is worth hearing. What say you all?

My unrelated question to you all is this: What is your favorite performance of the Enigma Variations? It's such an excellent piece.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 14, 2022, 03:24:57 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 14, 2022, 03:03:35 AM
^Thanks! I think I'll seek out the Bean or Ennes.

After having spent a bit of time with The Dream of Gerontius and finding it highly impressive, I'm curious what, if any of, Elgar's other choral music is worth hearing. What say you all?

My unrelated question to you all is this: What is your favorite performance of the Enigma Variations? It's such an excellent piece.

Elgar himself rated "The Apostles" and "The Kingdom" above Gerontius as have other commentators.  My favourite of all Elgar's choral works is "Spirit of England" which is in effect his War Requiem.  The Gibson recording in Paisley Abbey is wonderful and so is Hickox's version on Warner/EMI;

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xnwAAOSwYcZf~-MB/s-l500.jpg)(https://i.discogs.com/7FLQwfCCfNFs-yBO_WNrk5VfEw13vjmxdDvELP_g-L4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTYzMjMw/NzMtMTYzMDM1MTAx/NC02NTkxLmdpZg.jpeg)

Impossible to put one Enigma above all others - there are too many fine versions - but a recurring favourite and one I listen to possibly more often than others is Menuhin/RPO on Tring;

(https://i.discogs.com/4RFM1HKtiFLnVkbrByxEMC6qV87vCcEEDM_ZUxknsCo/rs:fit/g:sm/q:40/h:300/w:300/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTk3ODU1/NjItMTQ4NjI5ODEy/Mi0zNDE4LmpwZWc.jpeg)

This version is currently part of a FREE download from ClassicSelect for the next week or two I guess;

https://www.classicselectworld.com/collections/free-downloads/products/big-english-music-box

I mentioned this on the "British Composers thread" as not to be missed for all the music included not just Enigma.......
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on September 14, 2022, 05:56:31 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 14, 2022, 03:24:57 AM
Elgar himself rated "The Apostles" and "The Kingdom" above Gerontius as have other commentators.  My favourite of all Elgar's choral works is "Spirit of England" which is in effect his War Requiem.  The Gibson recording in Paisley Abbey is wonderful and so is Hickox's version on Warner/EMI;

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xnwAAOSwYcZf~-MB/s-l500.jpg)(https://i.discogs.com/7FLQwfCCfNFs-yBO_WNrk5VfEw13vjmxdDvELP_g-L4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTYzMjMw/NzMtMTYzMDM1MTAx/NC02NTkxLmdpZg.jpeg)

Impossible to put one Enigma above all others - there are too many fine versions - but a recurring favourite and one I listen to possibly more often than others is Menuhin/RPO on Tring;

(https://i.discogs.com/4RFM1HKtiFLnVkbrByxEMC6qV87vCcEEDM_ZUxknsCo/rs:fit/g:sm/q:40/h:300/w:300/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTk3ODU1/NjItMTQ4NjI5ODEy/Mi0zNDE4LmpwZWc.jpeg)

This version is currently part of a FREE download from ClassicSelect for the next week or two I guess;

https://www.classicselectworld.com/collections/free-downloads/products/big-english-music-box

I mentioned this on the "British Composers thread" as not to be missed for all the music included not just Enigma.......

Wow. That "box" looks awesome. I may have to jump on that while it's still free. Thanks for the recs! I had heard about The Spirit of England, but was prejudicially avoiding it on the surely false assumption that it would contain nothing but pompous British Empire music. I shall have to check it out!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 14, 2022, 07:37:50 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 14, 2022, 05:56:31 AM
Wow. That "box" looks awesome. I may have to jump on that while it's still free. Thanks for the recs! I had heard about The Spirit of England, but was prejudicially avoiding it on the surely false assumption that it would contain nothing but pompous British Empire music. I shall have to check it out!

Indeed - please do try and avoid falling into overly simplistic traps/generalisations of Elgar (other British composers) writing "pompous British Empire music".  Remember that Elgar himself was not at all comfortable with the words of "Land of Hope and Glory".  Indeed all 5 Pomp and Circumstance Marches were written as QUICK military marches and they are quite unusual as the less famous ones; Nos. 2,3 & 5 have a kind of nervy energy that is a mile away from the perception of arrogant Empire.  Also, it is very easy at the distance of more than a century to dismiss all associations with the British Empire as at least flawed or at worst embodying unthinking imperialist excess.  Remember Elgar - great artist though he was - was in effect a middle class man who reflected the age in which he lived - he did not define it.  I think his ceremonial music does work because it is sincerely written and Elgar is always at his best when writing from the heart.  So yes there ARE some lines in the libretto to Spirit of England that jar with modern sensibilities but the emotion and motivation behind those lines, the way in which Elgar expresses those sentiments to me is enduringly powerful.  His setting in this work of "at the going down of the sun..." moves me every time I hear it.

Every country has composers who have written works in earlier eras that are the equivalent of "Land of Hope and Glory" - for some reason it is British composers who get a bad rap for it where as others don't to my mind.  On a slight tagent - I think any compsers who are commissioned to write coronation music for Charles III is going to have a really tricky time of it - balancing the historic expectation of the old with the modern awareness of that same history.  Whatever else they did do Elgar/Parry/Bliss/Vaughan Williams/Bax/Walton could all write a stirring and memorable tune......
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on September 14, 2022, 10:22:24 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 14, 2022, 07:37:50 AM
Indeed - please do try and avoid falling into overly simplistic traps/generalisations of Elgar (other British composers) writing "pompous British Empire music".  Remember that Elgar himself was not at all comfortable with the words of "Land of Hope and Glory".  Indeed all 5 Pomp and Circumstance Marches were written as QUICK military marches and they are quite unusual as the less famous ones; Nos. 2,3 & 5 have a kind of nervy energy that is a mile away from the perception of arrogant Empire.  Also, it is very easy at the distance of more than a century to dismiss all associations with the British Empire as at least flawed or at worst embodying unthinking imperialist excess.  Remember Elgar - great artist though he was - was in effect a middle class man who reflected the age in which he lived - he did not define it.  I think his ceremonial music does work because it is sincerely written and Elgar is always at his best when writing from the heart.  So yes there ARE some lines in the libretto to Spirit of England that jar with modern sensibilities but the emotion and motivation behind those lines, the way in which Elgar expresses those sentiments to me is enduringly powerful.  His setting in this work of "at the going down of the sun..." moves me every time I hear it.

Every country has composers who have written works in earlier eras that are the equivalent of "Land of Hope and Glory" - for some reason it is British composers who get a bad rap for it where as others don't to my mind.  On a slight tagent - I think any compsers who are commissioned to write coronation music for Charles III is going to have a really tricky time of it - balancing the historic expectation of the old with the modern awareness of that same history.  Whatever else they did do Elgar/Parry/Bliss/Vaughan Williams/Bax/Walton could all write a stirring and memorable tune......

Hope I didn't offend with that line; I only wished to demonstrate the flaws of my earlier thinking. The more I listen to Elgar the more I admire, enjoy, and identify with his music. He was certainly a very original composer of immense skill, if not genius, and I've enjoyed every moment I've spent with his music over the past week or so since I began to revisit it in depth. As for my previous prejudice against Elgar, I have only the American education system and its overuse of the trio of that one famous P&C March for graduation ceremonies to blame. As a budding Elgar fan I can wholeheartedly disown my previous misconceptions ;D (Sometimes it's easier to make rash generalizations than to actually explore the music for oneself.)

Another open ended question for the members of the board: What recordings of the Dream of Gerontius do you all like? The Barbirolli/Hallé sounds excellent—really captures the dreamlike atmosphere. I also have Hickox/LSO (Chandos) lying around somewhere, but don't think I've heard it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 14, 2022, 11:02:43 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 14, 2022, 10:22:24 AM
Hope I didn't offend with that line; I only wished to demonstrate the flaws of my earlier thinking. The more I listen to Elgar the more I admire, enjoy, and identify with his music. He was certainly a very original composer of immense skill, if not genius, and I've enjoyed every moment I've spent with his music over the past week or so since I began to revisit it in depth. As for my previous prejudice against Elgar, I have only the American education system and its overuse of the trio of that one famous P&C March for graduation ceremonies to blame. As a budding Elgar fan I can wholeheartedly disown my previous misconceptions ;D (Sometimes it's easier to make rash generalizations than to actually explore the music for oneself.)

Another open ended question for the members of the board: What recordings of the Dream of Gerontius do you all like? The Barbirolli/Hallé sounds excellent—really captures the dreamlike atmosphere. I also have Hickox/LSO (Chandos) lying around somewhere, but don't think I've heard it.

Goodness me no offence taken at all - just counciing against adopting easy generalisations.  I didn't know about the use of the trio of P&C 1 for USA University graduations!  The Barbirolli box should have the 5 P&C marches - do listen to them as a set, they are very fine and not at all what you might expect from the trio section of No.1 alone!  Indeed all of Elgar's "Institutional works" - the Empire march, the Imperial March, Caractacus etc have an emotional ambivalence that lifts them far above the standard gung-ho/square jawed/heroic fayre.

As far as Gerotius is concerned - the Barbirolli is justly famous even allowing for Kim Borg's mangled English.  I do like Boult - Gedda has that kind of ringing operatic sound that Elgar envisaged and Robert Lloyd is great in the 2 bass parts.  Hickox is fine too.  A bit of a rarity/outlier that I like is Sakari Oramo with the CBSO.  Also Svetlanov's performance using Russian orchestra but English choir and soloists is very individual and compelling - even allowing for the fact it was recorded in winter in the pneumonia ward of Moscow Central Hospital (ie there is a LOT of audience coughing!)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 14, 2022, 01:05:48 PM
Wow! So much activity suddenly here. I don't participate on the recommendations because I suck at them. For the Violin Concerto alone there are so many options...  ???

I happened to listen to a Harmonia Mundi CD today with works like Sospiri, Elegy, Nursery Suite etc. With ducks on the cover art. Lovely disc!  0:)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 14, 2022, 01:17:00 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 14, 2022, 01:05:48 PM
Wow! So much activity suddenly here. I don't participate on the recommendations because I suck at them. For the Violin Concerto alone there are so many options...  ???

I happened to listen to a Harmonia Mundi CD today with works like Sospiri, Elegy, Nursery Suite etc. With ducks on the cover art. Lovely disc!  0:)

But your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's especially given you are an Elgar enthusiast!  I don't know the Harmonia Mundi disc you mention but I listened to the Nursery Suite in this version last week....

(https://i.discogs.com/UvsmVX1R_mZLTjwykPFo4XOMUZE5Hxfkti_Wt0MfHi8/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:310/w:304/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTU2MzIz/NTctMTQyODQ5OTgy/NS0zMjYzLnBuZw.jpeg)

another lovely Elgar disc from Menuhin.  I do think Anthony Payne "stealing" the "Wagon Passes" idea for the end of his version of the 3rd symphony was a touch of genius.....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on September 14, 2022, 02:11:36 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 14, 2022, 01:17:00 PM
But your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's especially given you are an Elgar enthusiast!  I don't know the Harmonia Mundi disc you mention but I listened to the Nursery Suite in this version last week....

(https://i.discogs.com/UvsmVX1R_mZLTjwykPFo4XOMUZE5Hxfkti_Wt0MfHi8/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:310/w:304/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTU2MzIz/NTctMTQyODQ5OTgy/NS0zMjYzLnBuZw.jpeg)

another lovely Elgar disc from Menuhin.  I do think Anthony Payne "stealing" the "Wagon Passes" idea for the end of his version of the 3rd symphony was a touch of genius.....
+1
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on September 16, 2022, 01:40:29 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on September 12, 2022, 11:42:18 PM
I've listened to Sospiri a few times in total and so far I've yet to hear the organ in any of the recordings? Is it an ad lib part?

The organ is clear to hear on the Andrew Davis/BBC Symphony recording I have. One thing to keep in mind is, it's not a grand pipe organ part, but a harmonium-ish chamber organ part.

Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 14, 2022, 03:24:57 AM
Elgar himself rated "The Apostles" and "The Kingdom" above Gerontius as have other commentators.  My favourite of all Elgar's choral works is "Spirit of England" which is in effect his War Requiem.  The Gibson recording in Paisley Abbey is wonderful and so is Hickox's version on Warner/EMI;

FWIW, I couldn't bear The Apostles. Not sure I've ever tried The Kingdom. Gerontius and The Spirit of England seem pretty much to scratch any Elgar choral itch I feel.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 16, 2022, 02:46:27 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 16, 2022, 01:40:29 PM
FWIW, I couldn't bear The Apostles. Not sure I've ever tried The Kingdom. Gerontius and The Spirit of England seem pretty much to scratch any Elgar choral itch I feel.

I think The Apostles and The Kingdom are among the best works by Elgar and certainly above The Dream of Gerontius, but it seems one has to be strongly into Elgar to get the greatness of those works...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on September 16, 2022, 02:55:45 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 16, 2022, 02:46:27 PM
I think The Apostles and The Kingdom are among the best works by Elgar and certainly above The Dream of Gerontius, but it seems one has to be strongly into Elgar to get the greatness of those works...

Do you have an all-time favorite work of his?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on September 16, 2022, 03:08:43 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 16, 2022, 02:46:27 PM
I think The Apostles and The Kingdom are among the best works by Elgar and certainly above The Dream of Gerontius, but it seems one has to be strongly into Elgar to get the greatness of those works...

Poju, I may have been out off by idiosyncrasies specific to a given recording. But clearly there are those who regard The Apostles highly. Is there a good recording you would recommend?


Separately, I like Gerontius a great deal, so certainly above The Dream of Gerontius may not have been your best pitch to me  8)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 16, 2022, 03:33:38 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 16, 2022, 02:55:45 PM
Do you have an all-time favorite work of his?

Not a clear one. Because I like Elgar's art so much, even his "lesser" music provides endless fascination for me, but if I have to mention one it would be the 2nd Symphony.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 16, 2022, 03:08:43 PM
Poju, I may have been out off by idiosyncrasies specific to a given recording. But clearly there are those who regard The Apostles highly. Is there a good recording you would recommend?

My favorite is Boult, but some people like Dave Hurwitz say Hickox which I haven't even heard!  :o


Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 16, 2022, 03:08:43 PMSeparately, I like Gerontius a great deal, so certainly above The Dream of Gerontius may not have been your best pitch to me  8)

I have been ill today and my head isn't working properly. I like The Apostles and The Kingdom even more than the Dream of Gerontius. That is what I was trying to say.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on September 16, 2022, 04:16:47 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 16, 2022, 03:33:38 PM
My favorite is Boult, but some people like Dave Hurwitz say Hickox which I haven't even heard!  :o


I have been ill today and my head isn't working properly. I like The Apostles and The Kingdom even more than the Dream of Gerontius. That is what I was trying to say.

No worries, buddy.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on September 16, 2022, 04:26:43 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 16, 2022, 03:33:38 PM
Not a clear one. Because I like Elgar's art so much, even his "lesser" music provides endless fascination for me, but if I have to mention one it would be the 2nd Symphony.

My favorite is Boult, but some people like Dave Hurwitz say Hickox which I haven't even heard!  :o


I have been ill today and my head isn't working properly. I like The Apostles and The Kingdom even more than the Dream of Gerontius. That is what I was trying to say.

Thanks! I like Elgar more and more with each listen, so happy to hear comments from longtime fans such as yourself. I have not heard Elgar's 2nd. Care to tell me your favorite recording of it? I have Barbirolli/Hallé from the box set that I've been listening to this past week.

I did see the Hurwitz video where he talks about his love for the Hickox Apostles, which pretty much put that recording on my radar. I think I'll check it out at some point, but the Dream of Gerontius is enough Elgar choral for me, for now. I have Barbirolli/Hallé plus the Hickox/London from a later era. It's a very fine work, and I like it a lot more than I expected to. I also looked up the Britten recording of Gerontius for Decca and liked what I heard.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on September 16, 2022, 04:44:33 PM
Great to see the love for Gerontius!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vandermolen on September 16, 2022, 07:09:58 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 16, 2022, 03:33:38 PM
Not a clear one. Because I like Elgar's art so much, even his "lesser" music provides endless fascination for me, but if I have to mention one it would be the 2nd Symphony.

My favorite is Boult, but some people like Dave Hurwitz say Hickox which I haven't even heard!  :o


I have been ill today and my head isn't working properly. I like The Apostles and The Kingdom even more than the Dream of Gerontius. That is what I was trying to say.
Hope you feel better.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 16, 2022, 11:18:53 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 16, 2022, 04:26:43 PM
Thanks! I like Elgar more and more with each listen, so happy to hear comments from longtime fans such as yourself. I have not heard Elgar's 2nd. Care to tell me your favorite recording of it? I have Barbirolli/Hallé from the box set that I've been listening to this past week.

I did see the Hurwitz video where he talks about his love for the Hickox Apostles, which pretty much put that recording on my radar. I think I'll check it out at some point, but the Dream of Gerontius is enough Elgar choral for me, for now. I have Barbirolli/Hallé plus the Hickox/London from a later era. It's a very fine work, and I like it a lot more than I expected to. I also looked up the Britten recording of Gerontius for Decca and liked what I heard.

The Britten/Gerontius is interesting in many and quite different ways.  The very fact he recorded it at all was something of a surprise.  Of course Britten did a fine Introduction & Allegro but in general his view on British music of that era was pretty scathing - certainly he did not record anything else commercially by Elgar except those 2 works.  His choice of soloists is also very interesting - Yvonne Minton had a big dramatic voice quite unlike the 'classic' British contralto sound and she sings beautifully.  Not sure anyone can match Janet baker's insights into the role but Minton is very good.  Likewise John Shirley -Quirk who was the go-to bass/baritone in all the best recoridngs of British music in the 1970's & 80's (this was recorded in 1971).  I am imprinted with his sound because of this so my judgement is far from objective!  Probably I prefer a more true bass in these sections (Robert Lloyd for Boult for me is the best) but Shirley-Quiry is VERY good.  Then there is Pears as Gerontius.  Your enjoyment of the whole recording will probably stand or fall by your response to his voice.  He was in his 60's by the time he did this recording and it is typical Pears.  Musically sensitive and responsive to the text but the actual sound is unmistakeable and not one I love in a tenor.  Another interesting choice was using the Choir of Kings College Chapel as the semi-chorus - a really good and effective idea and one rarely copied on disc or in concert (ie using a cathedral/church sounding group as a contrast) - probably too expensive!  The recording itself is good (made at Snape Maltings) in the best Decca tradition but not as amazing as many of their other efforts from the same time - lots of the other Britten conducts Britten recordings still sound sensational technically let alone muscially.  All in all a performance I enjoy and am glad to know.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/fTsAAOSwx2dYI3Sl/s-l500.jpg)

Funny how an image of the original LP box brings back so many memories!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 02:28:10 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 14, 2022, 05:56:31 AM
I had heard about The Spirit of England, but was prejudicially avoiding it on the surely false assumption that it would contain nothing but pompous British Empire music. I shall have to check it out!

Elgar surely did deliver pompous music for the British Empire when asked, but most of his music is quite different in mood and style. For my Elgar's music is like a person that is a child, middle-aged and old at the same time. There is playfulness (childhood), seriousness (middle age) and sadness/melancholy/nostalgy (old age). The pompous style belongs to the middle age category. Elgar's lesser know pieces often are about the combination of childhood and old age feeling and are void of pompous empire sound that Elgar is known for generally. That might actually be one of the main reason why many people overlook Elgar. They don't go to the lesser known works to realise how nice music it is and how versatile Elgar was. This versatility makes Elgar's music very colourful and full of contrasts to me. I also think that people take the pompous sounds of Elgar in a wrong way. Elgar wasn't like that as a person. Elgar must have been very intelligent and intellectually curious person. He was clearly a humanist and pacifist, but also into science as a hobby even patenting his own soap.

The combination of playfulness and sadness/melancholy/nostalgy is one of the main attractions about Elgar's music for me. The pomposity adds to this to make things even more colourful and interesting, but generally Elgar's pompous marches are among the least interesting works of his to me. Luckily a rather small portion of his music is purely in this style and elsewhere this style serves as occational spice. Often one has to explore a composer well in order to get it all in the correct context and I think with Elgar this is particularly true. He wasn't someone who wrote 10 symphonies and 20 string quartets. He wrote all kind of stuff. He wrote a miniature about his dog Mina. He wrote music to raise money for the Dutch and Polish casulties of WWI. As a young man he wrote polkas for music therapy in mental asylum. When I explored Elgar 25 years ago for the first time, I felt almost every work I heard teached me something new about Elgar and allowed me to see a new side of his personality.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 02:38:41 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 16, 2022, 01:40:29 PM
One thing to keep in mind is, it's not a grand pipe organ part, but a harmonium-ish chamber organ part.

True. It is quite subtle and frankly nothing to write home about so it is not surprising it is omitted most of the time.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 02:53:57 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 16, 2022, 04:26:43 PM
Thanks! I like Elgar more and more with each listen, so happy to hear comments from longtime fans such as yourself. I have not heard Elgar's 2nd. Care to tell me your favorite recording of it? I have Barbirolli/Hallé from the box set that I've been listening to this past week.

As I said earlier, I am bad at giving recommendations. People want differetn things from recordings and I have noticed that often the first recording you hear becomes the favorite and other are compared to it (and are just wrong). Edward Downes on Naxos is the one for me, but that doesn't mean it is for you. I am not a Barbirolli fan myself. I prefer Boult to Barbirolli from that generation. Barbirolli/Hallé is a bit of a mess* to my ears but I compare it to Downes so there is that...

* recorded sound more than the performance.

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 16, 2022, 04:26:43 PMI did see the Hurwitz video where he talks about his love for the Hickox Apostles, which pretty much put that recording on my radar. I think I'll check it out at some point, but the Dream of Gerontius is enough Elgar choral for me, for now. I have Barbirolli/Hallé plus the Hickox/London from a later era. It's a very fine work, and I like it a lot more than I expected to. I also looked up the Britten recording of Gerontius for Decca and liked what I heard.

As I mentioned, I haven't heard Hickox's Apostles either. Generally I don't listen of different performances of works because comparing them feels extra work, but with Elgar I do have multiple performances of many works. As of Gerontius I have these:

Bournemouth Symphony Chorus + Orchestra / David Hill / Naxos 8.553885-86
Hallé Orchestra + Choir + Youth Choir / Elder / CD HLD 7520
John Alldis Choir / London Philharmonic Choir & Orchestra / Adrian Boult / EMI
Sheffield Philh. Chorus / Ambrosian Singers / Hallé Choir + Orchestra / John Barbirolli / EMI

Again, Naxos was the first I heard and therefore feels the correct one, but the others are good too.

Gerontius is more attractive work than The Apostles and The Kingdom which require much more concentration to be enjoyed, but when I do it the result is extraordinary. Gerontius is a "showpiece" while the others are "meditation."
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 03:14:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 16, 2022, 07:09:58 PM
Hope you feel better.

Thanks!  8) I feel better today so I try to write more here now that there is activity here.

It's just that so much of this is about recommendations and I am bad at those. I am much more interested in things such as why some composers/works/etc. are more popular than others.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 17, 2022, 03:38:16 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 02:53:57 AM
As I said earlier, I am bad at giving recommendations. People want differetn things from recordings and I have noticed that often the first recording you hear becomes the favorite and other are compared to it (and are just wrong). Edward Downes on Naxos is the one for me, but that doesn't mean it is for you. I am not a Barbirolli fan myself. I prefer Boult to Barbirolli from that generation. Barbirolli/Hallé is a bit of a mess* to my ears but I compare it to Downes so there is that...

* recorded sound more than the performance.

As I mentioned, I haven't heard Hickox's Apostles either. Generally I don't listen of different performances of works because comparing them feels extra work, but with Elgar I do have multiple performances of many works. As of Gerontius I have these:

Bournemouth Symphony Chorus + Orchestra / David Hill / Naxos 8.553885-86
Hallé Orchestra + Choir + Youth Choir / Elder / CD HLD 7520
John Alldis Choir / London Philharmonic Choir & Orchestra / Adrian Boult / EMI
Sheffield Philh. Chorus / Ambrosian Singers / Hallé Choir + Orchestra / John Barbirolli / EMI

Again, Naxos was the first I heard and therefore feels the correct one, but the others are good too.

Gerontius is more attractive work than The Apostles and The Kingdom which require much more concentration to be enjoyed, but when I do it the result is extraordinary. Gerontius is a "showpiece" while the others are "meditation."

Gerontius is a "showpiece" while the others are "meditation." - that's a very neat and insightful description - the 'big' set pieces in Gerontius are just that - rather wonderful and brilliantly placed (and paced!) in the work - but obvious designed as "crowd pleasers".  The big moments in the other two are also wonderful but less instantly gratifying.  Personally I enjoy other people's recommendations - as long as there is an element of "why" not just this is it...... 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on September 17, 2022, 04:24:22 AM
Thanks, boys. Your passion for the music is infectious. It's early morning and I haven't yet caffeinated myself so I won't reply further than to note that I read and thoroughly enjoyed all of these posts giving opinions about Elgar's music and some of the recordings of it. I'll try and formulate a better reply in a little bit.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 06:05:51 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 17, 2022, 04:24:22 AM
Thanks, boys. Your passion for the music is infectious. It's early morning and I haven't yet caffeinated myself so I won't reply further than to note that I read and thoroughly enjoyed all of these posts giving opinions about Elgar's music and some of the recordings of it. I'll try and formulate a better reply in a little bit.

Be warned, the life of an Elgarian isn't an easy one, especially if you live outside the UK. For me being a Sibelius fanatic would be so much easier. Or Wagner fanatic. Brahms, Shostakovich, Beethoven, Schubert, Mahler,... you name it would be easier to "explain", but being an Elgarian makes you outside the UK a weirdo who seems to love pompous marches for British Empire.  ;D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on September 17, 2022, 07:08:24 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 06:05:51 AM
Be warned, the life of an Elgarian isn't an easy one, especially if you live outside the UK. For me being a Sibelius fanatic would be so much easier. Or Wagner fanatic. Brahms, Shostakovich, Beethoven, Schubert, Mahler,... you name it would be easier to "explain", but being an Elgarian makes you outside the UK a weirdo who seems to love pompous marches for British Empire.  ;D

Oh, I've feared as much :laugh:
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on September 17, 2022, 07:17:43 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 03:14:07 AM
Thanks!  8) I feel better today so I try to write more here now that there is activity here.

Good to see!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on September 17, 2022, 07:48:10 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 02:38:41 AM
True. It is quite subtle and frankly nothing to write home about so it is not surprising it is omitted most of the time.

That's actually the thing: it's a subtle color added to the texture. I love it: I must have listened to the piece five times in two days (admittedly an easy matter logistically, as it rests in the Media Monkey queue until I remove it. It's a beauty. A minor Elgar work, of course, but an exquisite gem!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 17, 2022, 09:37:04 AM
Elgar was certainly a composer who embodied the English spirit of his time, reflected in the majestic, glorious and elegant side of his music style. But beyond those appearences, his music shows remarkable facetings: it is very powerful and inspiring (with a great intensity of expression and colourful orchestration), but also lyrical and passionate, as well as thoughtful and poetical; his use of chromaticism is not as overwhelming as Wagner's, for example, but clear and suggestive anyway, and it is able to evoke deep, strong emotions that capture you and make you completely immersed in the atmosphere of the composition. Works as his symphonies, the Cello Concerto, the Enigma Variations and the symphonic study Falstaff are jewels in my opinion.

Quote from: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 06:05:51 AM
Be warned, the life of an Elgarian isn't an easy one, especially if you live outside the UK. For me being a Sibelius fanatic would be so much easier. Or Wagner fanatic. Brahms, Shostakovich, Beethoven, Schubert, Mahler,... you name it would be easier to "explain", but being an Elgarian makes you outside the UK a weirdo who seems to love pompous marches for British Empire.  ;D

I can understand what you mean; I live in Italy and I'm a great admirer of Elgar's music, but none of the classical music lovers I know like Elgar very much (or even know him very much); and if I mention him, the first thing they say is: "Ah, the composer of Pomp and Circumstance".  :(
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 09:42:13 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 17, 2022, 07:48:10 AM
That's actually the thing: it's a subtle color added to the texture. I love it: I must have listened to the piece five times in two days (admittedly an easy matter logistically, as it rests in the Media Monkey queue until I remove it. It's a beauty. A minor Elgar work, of course, but an exquisite gem!

Sospiri is some of the most "Mahlerian" music by Elgar and has a very similar mood to the Adagietto of Mahler's 5th symphony. Perhaps this familiarity helps you appreciate the music Karl? While I definitely like Sospiri a lot, for me it is a rather "monocromatic" Elgar that plays with a limited selection of color and avoids completely the playfulness of Elgar default style.

That's Elgar for you: Some works by him bombard the listener with everything under the Sun (e.g. In the South, Op. 50) while some others like Sospiri are moderate with the expressive palette.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 17, 2022, 09:47:47 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 17, 2022, 09:37:04 AM
Elgar was certainly a composer who embodied the English spirit of his time, reflected in the majestic, glorious and elegant side of his music style. But beyond those appearences, his music shows remarkable facetings: it is very powerful and inspiring (with a great intensity of expression and colourful orchestration), but also lyrical and passionate, as well as thoughtful and poetical; his use of chromaticism is not as overwhelming as Wagner's, for example, but clear and suggestive anyway, and it is able to evoke deep, strong emotions that capture you and make you completely immersed in the atmosphere of the composition. Works as his symphonies, the Cello Concerto, the Enigma Variations and the symphonic study Falstaff are jewels in my opinion.

I can understand what you mean; I live in Italy and I'm a great admirer of Elgar's music, but none of the classical music lovers I know like Elgar very much (or even know him very much); and if I mention him, the first thing they say is: "Ah, the composer of Pomp and Circumstance".  :(
Must admit, when I was younger and found out that he had written that, I shuddered; it makes me think of high school graduations, etc.

You folks might enjoy reading this article:  https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-does-every-american-graduation-play-pomp-and-circumstance-180963504/

I love certain works by his...am still trying to warm myself to his choral works though.

PD
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 09:57:49 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 17, 2022, 09:37:04 AM
I can understand what you mean; I live in Italy and I'm a great admirer of Elgar's music, but none of the classical music lovers I know like Elgar very much (or even know him very much); and if I mention him, the first thing they say is: "Ah, the composer of Pomp and Circumstance".  :(

Yes, Elgar's music hasn't "traveled" much beyond Germany and the US. Both Italy and Finland are too distant culturally. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 17, 2022, 01:43:39 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 09:42:13 AM
Sospiri is some of the most "Mahlerian" music by Elgar and has a very similar mood to the Adagietto of Mahler's 5th symphony. Perhaps this familiarity helps you appreciate the music Karl? While I definitely like Sospiri a lot, for me it is a rather "monocromatic" Elgar that plays with a limited selection of color and avoids completely the playfulness of Elgar default style.

That's Elgar for you: Some works by him bombard the listener with everything under the Sun (e.g. In the South, Op. 50) while some others like Sospiri are moderate with the expressive palette.

To the sentance in bold above - another very succinct and acccurate description.  Sospiri is a very elusive yet profound work.  Although miniature in scale/duration it is unusual in that Elgar writes something profound but using such a limited palette - exactly as you allude to.  Its actually a tricky piece for interpreters too - as normal with Elgar there are a LOT of adjustments to tempi/dynamics/expressive markings in the score and the problem is to incorporate those directions without the result sounding broken up and lacking a coherent over-arching flow.  Of course that's where the great Elgar conductor/interpreters come in and find the balance between slavish adherence to the "letter" of the score and something that achieves the spirit of what he wrote without necessarily obeying every literal comma and tenuto.   

Fun-fact: Elgar dedicated Sospiri to W H "Billy" Reed who was the then leader of the LSO who became a close friend and confident of the composer - helping him with technical aspects of the Violin Concerto and Sonata etc (he gave the actual first performance of the violin concerto the day before Kriesler's orchestral premiere in a domestic violin and piano run through).  Reed's modern day fame probably rests on his authorship of "Elgar as I knew him" which reproduced/made people aware for the first time of the sketches for Symphony No.3
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on September 18, 2022, 12:15:22 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 09:42:13 AM
Sospiri is some of the most "Mahlerian" music by Elgar and has a very similar mood to the Adagietto of Mahler's 5th symphony. Perhaps this familiarity helps you appreciate the music Karl? While I definitely like Sospiri a lot, for me it is a rather "monocromatic" Elgar that plays with a limited selection of color and avoids completely the playfulness of Elgar default style.

That's Elgar for you: Some works by him bombard the listener with everything under the Sun (e.g. In the South, Op. 50) while some others like Sospiri are moderate with the expressive palette.

An interesting comparison! I don't have a recollection of the very first time I listened to Sospiri, my guess is that I would have liked it from the first I heard it. I don't think it would be particularly related to my liking for the Mahler Adagietto. (I have been listening to the Adagietto a few times of late. Of course, Mahler no less than Elgar, generally avails himself of a wider color palette.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Klaatu on September 19, 2022, 12:51:23 PM
Elgar's friend and dedicatee of "Sospiri", the violinist Billy Reed, was a minor composer in addition to his other accomplishments. Some of his music has now been recorded:

https://www.discogs.com/release/7660706-W-H-Reed-Music-For-Violin-Piano
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 19, 2022, 01:20:50 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on September 19, 2022, 12:51:23 PM
Elgar's friend and dedicatee of "Sospiri", the violinist Billy Reed, was a minor composer in addition to his other accomplishments. Some of his music has now been recorded:

https://www.discogs.com/release/7660706-W-H-Reed-Music-For-Violin-Piano

Now been recorded? That disc was recorded 20 years ago!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 19, 2022, 01:22:58 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 18, 2022, 12:15:22 PM
Of course, Mahler no less than Elgar, generally avails himself of a wider color palette.

Of course, but it is a somewhat different palette.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on September 20, 2022, 12:18:07 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 17, 2022, 06:05:51 AM
Be warned, the life of an Elgarian isn't an easy one, especially if you live outside the UK. For me being a Sibelius fanatic would be so much easier. Or Wagner fanatic. Brahms, Shostakovich, Beethoven, Schubert, Mahler,... you name it would be easier to "explain", but being an Elgarian makes you outside the UK a weirdo who seems to love pompous marches for British Empire.  ;D

I don't find my life to have been made more difficult by loving Elgar's music, but I do find I can be misunderstood if I mention it. Even here in England, I have to explain (if the topic comes up) that the Elgar who has been my lifetime companion is not the Elgar of Pomp and Circumstance. Rather, he is the Elgar of The Enigma Variations, the violin and cello concertos, the exquisite chamber music, the Introduction and Allegro for Strings, the two-and-a-bit symphonies, and The Spirit of England. He's the Elgar who, as conductor, asked his orchestra to play the slow movement of the 1st symphony 'as if it were something they'd heard down by the river.'

I've never been able to separate the man from the English landscape. I've walked the same walks as he did around Malvern. I've cycled the routes that he marked out on his own cycling maps. He said the music was in the air all around, and he just took what he needed - and his music sounds like that, to me. It's born from high hills, distant vistas, the wind in the grass. It's maybe significant that he owned an aeolian harp (I think I recall reading that he built it, but I can't be sure).

True, Elgar was an Imperialist who saw the Empire as the spreading of a chivalric ideal of brotherhood, and he did indeed compose the Pomp and Circumstance marches. But truly, I just don't think about it very much. It has nothing to do with my gratitude to the man for composing so much life-changing music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on September 20, 2022, 12:56:12 PM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on September 20, 2022, 12:18:07 PM
I don't find my life to have been made more difficult by loving Elgar's music, but I do find I can be misunderstood if I mention it. Even here in England, I have to explain (if the topic comes up) that the Elgar who has been my lifetime companion is not the Elgar of Pomp and Circumstance. Rather, he is the Elgar of The Enigma Variations, the violin and cello concertos, the exquisite chamber music, the Introduction and Allegro for Strings, the two-and-a-bit symphonies, and The Spirit of England. He's the Elgar who, as conductor, asked his orchestra to play the slow movement of the 1st symphony 'as if it were something they'd heard down by the river.'

I've never been able to separate the man from the English landscape. I've walked the same walks as he did around Malvern. I've cycled the routes that he marked out on his own cycling maps. He said the music was in the air all around, and he just took what he needed - and his music sounds like that, to me. It's born from high hills, distant vistas, the wind in the grass. It's maybe significant that he owned an aeolian harp (I think I recall reading that he built it, but I can't be sure).

True, Elgar was an Imperialist who saw the Empire as the spreading of a chivalric ideal of brotherhood, and he did indeed compose the Pomp and Circumstance marches. But truly, I just don't think about it very much. It has nothing to do with my gratitude to the man for composing so much life-changing music.

Great to "see" you, Alan!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 20, 2022, 03:47:13 PM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on September 20, 2022, 12:18:07 PM
I don't find my life to have been made more difficult by loving Elgar's music, but I do find I can be misunderstood if I mention it. Even here in England, I have to explain...

If you are misunderstood in the UK, you can imagine how it is for me in Finland!  :-X
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on September 20, 2022, 04:25:40 PM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on September 20, 2022, 12:18:07 PM
I don't find my life to have been made more difficult by loving Elgar's music, but I do find I can be misunderstood if I mention it. Even here in England, I have to explain (if the topic comes up) that the Elgar who has been my lifetime companion is not the Elgar of Pomp and Circumstance. Rather, he is the Elgar of The Enigma Variations, the violin and cello concertos, the exquisite chamber music, the Introduction and Allegro for Strings, the two-and-a-bit symphonies, and The Spirit of England. He's the Elgar who, as conductor, asked his orchestra to play the slow movement of the 1st symphony 'as if it were something they'd heard down by the river.'

I've never been able to separate the man from the English landscape. I've walked the same walks as he did around Malvern. I've cycled the routes that he marked out on his own cycling maps. He said the music was in the air all around, and he just took what he needed - and his music sounds like that, to me. It's born from high hills, distant vistas, the wind in the grass. It's maybe significant that he owned an aeolian harp (I think I recall reading that he built it, but I can't be sure).

True, Elgar was an Imperialist who saw the Empire as the spreading of a chivalric ideal of brotherhood, and he did indeed compose the Pomp and Circumstance marches. But truly, I just don't think about it very much. It has nothing to do with my gratitude to the man for composing so much life-changing music.

Care to recommend a recording as a "way in" to the chamber music?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 20, 2022, 11:56:13 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 20, 2022, 04:25:40 PM
Care to recommend a recording as a "way in" to the chamber music?

A one-stop shop........

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._AC_.jpg)

and you get a GREAT violin concerto thrown in.  For an excellent Quartet & Quintet there are several fine versions but I like;

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/VCsAAOSwOJVeid7z/s-l500.jpg)

The violin sonata is another elusive piece but a great one.  I enjoyed this one A LOT recently

(https://i.discogs.com/q0aKH_dv7DOZpcyENAWIYNIftbI6hzpd0hjrtC9R35c/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:594/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEyMzM4/NTEwLTE1NDk4MDUw/OTMtNjkzMi5qcGVn.jpeg)

Howick is a very fine violinist and she really gets the Elgar idiom
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on September 21, 2022, 12:21:20 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 20, 2022, 12:56:12 PM
Great to "see" you, Alan!

And you too, Karl. I feel as if I am guilty of years of neglect (of both GMG and your good self), and can't really justify them, except to say that there's been a lot of 'stuff' going on generally, and somehow I haven't felt that I had anything to say about music for a while. Listening, oh yes, in abundance. But I've been more about listening than talking about listening, if you see what I mean. I hope you're doing well?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on September 21, 2022, 12:29:13 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 20, 2022, 04:25:40 PM
Care to recommend a recording as a "way in" to the chamber music?

It so happens that Roasted Swan has beaten me to it. I don't think I've ever heard a poor recording of the chamber music, but certainly my 'go-to' version is the remarkable two-disc set that he recommends, and has been for as long as I remember. You get Hugh Bean on both the violin concerto and the violin sonata, and that's good enough for me. A lovely set. I'd start there.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on September 21, 2022, 12:39:21 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 20, 2022, 03:47:13 PM
If you are misunderstood in the UK, you can imagine how it is for me in Finland!  :-X

Yes, but it doesn't bother me as much as it bothers you. In fact it doesn't bother me at all. I mean, I can explain briefly that the Elgar I'm talking about isn't the Pomp & Circumstance Elgar that the other chap is talking about, but if he isn't persuaded then the loss is his, not mine.

Leaving Elgar aside, there's a whole stack of music that I listen to (oh, those guilty pleasures) which isn't enjoyed by anyone else I know. That seems to be the 'normal' state of things.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on September 21, 2022, 01:36:22 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 14, 2022, 05:56:31 AM
I had heard about The Spirit of England, but was prejudicially avoiding it on the surely false assumption that it would contain nothing but pompous British Empire music. I shall have to check it out!

Can't resist the opportunity to drop in and respond to this. I did the same as you in my early years of Elgar exploration, and when I eventually heard Spirit of England (by accident, not knowing at first what it was) I was poleaxed. It is recognisably and profoundly Elgarian, deeply moving, and falling well on this side of the boundary between 'my' Elgar and the Pomp & Circumstance Elgar. My recommendation is:
(a) Don't miss it.
(b) Make sure you get the Chandos recording with Teresa Cahill and the Scottish National Orchestra with Gibson. It's incomparable. One of my Five Essential Recordings by anyone, of anything, anywhere, at any time.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 21, 2022, 01:46:42 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on September 21, 2022, 12:39:21 AM
Yes, but it doesn't bother me as much as it bothers you. In fact it doesn't bother me at all. I mean, I can explain briefly that the Elgar I'm talking about isn't the Pomp & Circumstance Elgar that the other chap is talking about, but if he isn't persuaded then the loss is his, not mine.

Leaving Elgar aside, there's a whole stack of music that I listen to (oh, those guilty pleasures) which isn't enjoyed by anyone else I know. That seems to be the 'normal' state of things.

Why do you assume it bothers me? Because I mention it? The things that bother me are completely different:

Brexit bothers me (difficulties ordering stuff form UK)
Amazon.co.uk raising shipping costs to ridiculous level bothers me
Covid-19 bothered me for 2 years (not so much anymore)
War in Ukraine bothers me
Energy crisis bothers me
Inflation bothers me

That's the stuff at that bothers me. What I wrote about Elgar is just harmless feelings... ...Elgar is not the only music that makes me feel isolated. Pretty much everything I like and do is obscure stuff...
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 21, 2022, 02:02:52 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 20, 2022, 11:56:13 PM
and you get a GREAT violin concerto thrown in.  For an excellent Quartet & Quintet there are several fine versions but I like;

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/VCsAAOSwOJVeid7z/s-l500.jpg)

Good CD indeed.  0:)

I don't know the Howick disc, but Lydia Mordkovich/Julian Milford on Chandos is my go to CD for the Violin Sonata.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on September 21, 2022, 02:26:31 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 20, 2022, 11:56:13 PM
A one-stop shop........

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/413Y51QSRRL._AC_.jpg)

and you get a GREAT violin concerto thrown in.  For an excellent Quartet & Quintet there are several fine versions but I like;

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/VCsAAOSwOJVeid7z/s-l500.jpg)

The violin sonata is another elusive piece but a great one.  I enjoyed this one A LOT recently

(https://i.discogs.com/q0aKH_dv7DOZpcyENAWIYNIftbI6hzpd0hjrtC9R35c/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:594/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEyMzM4/NTEwLTE1NDk4MDUw/OTMtNjkzMi5qcGVn.jpeg)

Howick is a very fine violinist and she really gets the Elgar idiom

The first one is not currently cheaply available I'm afraid, at least not here in the states. I was looking for it when you recommended bean for the Violin Concerto. Perhaps I shall check out the Naxos with the quartet and quintet.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Jo498 on September 21, 2022, 02:37:46 AM
I am not an Elgarian but the Naxos disc with quartet and quintet (that I found the more successful piece) seemed quite good to me without having any other recordings of that music.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 21, 2022, 02:48:53 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on September 21, 2022, 01:36:22 AM
Can't resist the opportunity to drop in and respond to this. I did the same as you in my early years of Elgar exploration, and when I eventually heard Spirit of England (by accident, not knowing at first what it was) I was poleaxed. It is recognisably and profoundly Elgarian, deeply moving, and falling well on this side of the boundary between 'my' Elgar and the Pomp & Circumstance Elgar. My recommendation is:
(a) Don't miss it.
(b) Make sure you get the Chandos recording with Teresa Cahill and the Scottish National Orchestra with Gibson. It's incomparable. One of my Five Essential Recordings by anyone, of anything, anywhere, at any time.

100% agree about the Gibson/Cahill.  Generally I like Gibson - his Sibelius is deservedly acclaimed - but his Elgar (and Walton) can be frustratingly hit and miss.  BUT the disc of Spirit of England and the coupling of The Coronation Ode is an absolute bulls-eye brilliant and Cahill never did anything better.  You only have to hear her attacking the high notes to realise that the alternative tenor option that Elgar did sanction is just wrong!

I do not have any problem with any of Elgar's more ceremonial/institutional music.  The tunes are great and the music well-written.  As I've said before they sincerely reflect the mood of the age they were written in.  Just because we live in a time that (rightly) views that differently does not devalue the music - which as folk will often tell you here and elsewhere is "just" music which of itself means nothing - we the listeners impose our own meanings.  I'm sure if we looked back through various Odes and Cantatas by Handel or Arne or German and Italian composers (of any era) we would find numerous references to smiting foes and reigning supreme.  By no means is this a characterisitic of the British Empire.  Not sure I can remember the last time anyone said "bloomin' imperialist Handel celebrating the end of the War of the Austrian Succession with that jingoistic Fireworks Music....tsk tsk".
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 21, 2022, 03:27:29 AM
The Gibson/Cahill disc was hyped so much here that when I finally pulled the trigger and bought it I was almost disappointed. That's how much it is hyped here!  ;D

My introduction to The Spirit of England was Felicity Lott/Hickox which I find a very fine performance.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 21, 2022, 03:40:13 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 21, 2022, 03:27:29 AM
The Gibson/Cahill disc was hyped so much here that when I finally pulled the trigger and bought it I was almost disappointed. That's how much it is hyped here!  ;D

My introduction to The Spirit of England was Felicity Lott/Hickox which I find a very fine performance.

Lott/Hickox is also very good indeed - I like the way the organ really underpins that recording.  On some versions its almost inaudible.  When Elgar writes an organ part it MUST be heard(!) - which is one reason - absolute heresy to say this I know - I'm not completely sold on the Barbirolli/Baker Sea Pictures is that Brabirolli omitted the organ completely.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on September 21, 2022, 05:54:39 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 21, 2022, 01:46:42 AM
Why do you assume it bothers me?

Well, you said (I quote) "Be warned, the life of an Elgarian isn't an easy one, especially if you live outside the UK ... being an Elgarian makes you outside the UK a weirdo who seems to love pompous marches for British Empire." Also I've read many of your posts over the years expressing disappointment that Elgar is under-rated. So it sounded to me like these things bother you.

It seems that we are not interpreting the word' bother' in quite the same way. But it doesn't matter. We've always agreed about the value of Elgar's music, I think.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on September 21, 2022, 06:01:45 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 21, 2022, 03:27:29 AM
The Gibson/Cahill disc was hyped so much here that when I finally pulled the trigger and bought it I was almost disappointed. That's how much it is hyped here!  ;D

I'll be as responsible for that as anyone, I'll confess, so I'm sorry it didn't live up to expectations for you. But I would wish to be understood that my praise of it isn't 'hype'. That recording has been a genuine inspiration to me for a very large chunk of my life, so from my own point of view, I've never overpraised it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on September 21, 2022, 06:31:01 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on September 21, 2022, 06:01:45 AM
I'll be as responsible for that as anyone, I'll confess, so I'm sorry it didn't live up to expectations for you. But I would wish to be understood that my praise of it isn't 'hype'. That recording has been a genuine inspiration to me for a very large chunk of my life, so from my own point of view, I've never overpraised it.

I've greatly enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 21, 2022, 07:22:16 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on September 21, 2022, 05:54:39 AM
Well, you said (I quote) "Be warned, the life of an Elgarian isn't an easy one, especially if you live outside the UK ... being an Elgarian makes you outside the UK a weirdo who seems to love pompous marches for British Empire." Also I've read many of your posts over the years expressing disappointment that Elgar is under-rated. So it sounded to me like these things bother you.

It seems that we are not interpreting the word' bother' in quite the same way. But it doesn't matter. We've always agreed about the value of Elgar's music, I think.

These things might have bothered me in the past, but nowadays I don't care. So much problems anyway.

Yes, we share our admiration of Elgar's music.



Quote from: Elgarian Redux on September 21, 2022, 06:01:45 AM
I'll be as responsible for that as anyone, I'll confess, so I'm sorry it didn't live up to expectations for you. But I would wish to be understood that my praise of it isn't 'hype'. That recording has been a genuine inspiration to me for a very large chunk of my life, so from my own point of view, I've never overpraised it.

Of course you are not responsible for that and even if you were, it is a great recording. It is even possible I haven't understood all the performance has to offer. I compare it to Lott/Hickox which is great too. If I had heard only the crappiest recordings I would have been blown away.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 21, 2022, 09:50:46 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 21, 2022, 02:26:31 AM
The first one is not currently cheaply available I'm afraid, at least not here in the states. I was looking for it when you recommended bean for the Violin Concerto. Perhaps I shall check out the Naxos with the quartet and quintet.
+1 for the Maggini Quartet/Donohoe.  I purchased that one a number of years ago and am happy that I followed someone's recommendation.  :)

PD
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on September 21, 2022, 10:32:41 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 21, 2022, 09:50:46 AM
+1 for the Maggini Quartet/Donohoe.  I purchased that one a number of years ago and am happy that I followed someone's recommendation.  :)

PD

Nice!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 22, 2022, 08:09:42 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 21, 2022, 09:50:46 AM
+1 for the Maggini Quartet/Donohoe.  I purchased that one a number of years ago and am happy that I followed someone's recommendation.  :)

PD

The CD came out in 1997 when I has getting into Elgar obsessively after having discovered him in December 1996. I remember seeing the disc listed online on Naxos' website and bought it immediately after release from "Akateeminen Kirjakauppa" (the name translates: academic bookstore) in the Helsinki center which had good selection of Naxos CDs back then.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 22, 2022, 08:48:02 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 22, 2022, 08:09:42 AM
The CD came out in 1997 when I has getting into Elgar obsessively after having discovered him in December 1996. I remember seeing the disc listed online on Naxos' website and bought it immediately after release from "Akateeminen Kirjakauppa" (the name translates: academic bookstore) in the Helsinki center which had good selection of Naxos CDs back then.

Scary to think that is already a quarter of a century ago!!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 22, 2022, 10:02:03 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 22, 2022, 08:48:02 AM
Scary to think that is already a quarter of a century ago!!

For me the scary part is how much worse the World is today. Another 25 years and this World in completely ruined!  :o
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: relm1 on September 22, 2022, 04:43:24 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 22, 2022, 10:02:03 AM
For me the scary part is how much worse the World is today. Another 25 years and this World in completely ruined!  :o

Some might say that but that's very debatable.  I'm not an optimist but evidence is generally positive over time.  Global poverty is decreasing, health is generally improving, life span increases, etc.  Yes, there is climate change, Putin's war, idiots in office.  But these are becoming more of the outliers as time goes on.  World becomes more extreme generally but over time, the trend is towards progress and inclusion though the trajectory is very bumpy. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: The new erato on September 22, 2022, 10:44:35 PM
I'm currently in Alassio where Elgar liked to spend some time.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on September 23, 2022, 12:57:23 AM
Quote from: The new erato on September 22, 2022, 10:44:35 PM
I'm currently in Alassio where Elgar liked to spend some time.

Named one of his best pieces after it too.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: relm1 on September 23, 2022, 06:31:55 AM
Quote from: The new erato on September 22, 2022, 10:44:35 PM
I'm currently in Alassio where Elgar liked to spend some time.

Show a picture.  Based on the music I assume the place is dramatic!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 24, 2022, 05:37:13 AM
About The Spirit of England:

I listened to Cahill/Gibson to Lott/Hickox again and compared them. One thing I realised is that Cahill/Gibson is very slow with the first and third movements while the second movement has very similar tempi to Lott/Hickox. Also, Lott/Hickox has very good consistent balance between the orchestra, chorus and soprano which I like a lot. I also like the strong low frequencies on the recording. In Cahill/Gibson soprano is more present and the whole perfomance feels more dynamic, but the slower tempi keeps the energy level the same.

So, the performances have clear differencies, but to me both are very good. I have to say I prefer Lott/Hickox with small margin. It was the first performance I heard and it just sounds very "Elgarian" to me. My third performance of this work is on Somm label. I remember nothing....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on September 24, 2022, 08:24:23 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2022, 05:37:13 AM
About The Spirit of England:

I listened to Cahill/Gibson to Lott/Hickox again and compared them. One thing I realised is that Cahill/Gibson is very slow with the first and third movements while the second movement has very similar tempi to Lott/Hickox. Also, Lott/Hickox has very good consistent balance between the orchestra, chorus and soprano which I like a lot. I also like the strong low frequencies on the recording. In Cahill/Gibson soprano is more present and the whole perfomance feels more dynamic, but the slower tempi keeps the energy level the same.

So, the performances have clear differencies, but to me both are very good. I have to say I prefer Lott/Hickox with small margin. It was the first performance I heard and it just sounds very "Elgarian" to me.

Nice. I like both as well.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on September 24, 2022, 09:10:51 AM
Today I listened to the Somm performance (Judith Howarth/John Wilson) and it is clearly weaker than the other two I have. Ugly bad sonic balance and the soprano sounds like she is trying to break glassware with her voice.  :-\
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 24, 2022, 10:21:24 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2022, 09:10:51 AM
Today I listened to the Somm performance (Judith Howarth/John Wilson) and it is clearly weaker than the other two I have. Ugly bad sonic balance and the soprano sounds like she is trying to break glassware with her voice.  :-\

I agree - its a lesser version - I like your description of the soprano!  The sonics are better on the recent(ish) Chandos version but I simply cannot accept the tenor part as viable even though Elgar sanctioned it (same with Lloyd-Jones too)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on September 24, 2022, 10:44:31 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on September 24, 2022, 05:37:13 AM
About The Spirit of England:

I listened to Cahill/Gibson to Lott/Hickox again and compared them. One thing I realised is that Cahill/Gibson is very slow with the first and third movements while the second movement has very similar tempi to Lott/Hickox. Also, Lott/Hickox has very good consistent balance between the orchestra, chorus and soprano which I like a lot. I also like the strong low frequencies on the recording. In Cahill/Gibson soprano is more present and the whole perfomance feels more dynamic, but the slower tempi keeps the energy level the same.

So, the performances have clear differencies, but to me both are very good. I have to say I prefer Lott/Hickox with small margin. It was the first performance I heard and it just sounds very "Elgarian" to me. My third performance of this work is on Somm label. I remember nothing....

Seems fair enough to me. I would certainly admit that my preference for Cahill/Gibson is based on a response that's purely subjective: for me, Cahill imbues the whole piece with meaning. I feel as if she 'understands' what Elgar's vision of 'the Spirit of England' means, and she soars at times that lift me out of myself and leave me with goosebumps. Lott is fine, but I don't get the goosebumps. I can believe that others do.

This is not a defensible critique, of course: but I don't think there's anything to defend. I can't help my response to a recording of a piece of music that seems to strike at the core of my being. I can only report how it is for me, as we swap opinions. I could never claim to have a technical understanding of any performance of a piece of music. I'm incapable of that.

The really important thing is that people are listening to The Spirit of England, regardless of which recording it may be.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: foxandpeng on September 27, 2022, 06:42:16 AM
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on September 24, 2022, 10:44:31 AM

I can't help my response to a recording of a piece of music that seems to strike at the core of my being. I can only report how it is for me, as we swap opinions. I could never claim to have a technical understanding of any performance of a piece of music. I'm incapable of that.


Such comments encourage me greatly. Whereas I am certain that you have a greater musical understanding and capacity for analysis that I, it is always good to read others who able to enjoy their music in a similar way that I do. Thank you for the unintended lift!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Elgarian Redux on September 27, 2022, 12:27:24 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on September 27, 2022, 06:42:16 AM
Whereas I am certain that you have a greater musical understanding and capacity for analysis that I, it is always good to read others who able to enjoy their music in a similar way that I do.

That's a nice thing to say - thank you.

However, I seriously doubt that my musical understanding and analytical capacity are any greater than yours. It seems unlikely. This is not false modesty. I don't claim to understand Elgar's music, truly I don't. I'm just deeply moved by it, and I can't help that.

Of course we can talk about all sorts of stuff - like picking out the Windflower themes in the violin concerto, and what they might mean (I like thinking about that). But even then, the things I might say are more likely to be about Elgar the man, than about the actual music; and nothing I might say about the Windflower business would involve more than merely noticing that the same little tune is popping up in different places.

Always nice to swap views with a kindred spirit. Cheers.

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 04, 2023, 01:26:04 AM
Last night I went to a concert at the excellent Anvil hall in Basingstoke given by the Bournemouth SO under their principal conductor Kirill Karabits.  The 2nd half was Elgar's Symphony No.2.  This was given a brilliantly executed and really rather wonderful and quite individual performance from an obviously committed conductor and orchestra.  Which led me to a few thoughts - most of which firmly belong in the category of "stating the bloomin' obvious";

1)  The work is a piece of utter genius
2)  Any idea that this music "does not travel" is nonsense (clearly it chimes with Ukrainian conductor Karabits)
3)  The standard of modern orchestral playing is insanely high
4)  It ought to be a legal requirement for Elgar to be played with antiphonal violins (as it was here)
5)  We spend a lot of time (myself included) debating the qualities and virtues of other British composers from around 1900 - where others might be very good, only Elgar was a genius.  (I DON'T mean by this the likes of RVW/Holst etc - the "younger" generation at that point establishing themselves - I mean Elgar's contemporaries by age)
6)  How on earth did he self-teach himself to be such a brilliant orchestrator?!?!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on February 04, 2023, 02:26:49 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 04, 2023, 01:26:04 AMLast night I went to a concert at the excellent Anvil hall in Basingstoke given by the Bournemouth SO under their principal conductor Kirill Karabits.  The 2nd half was Elgar's Symphony No.2.  This was given a brilliantly executed and really rather wonderful and quite individual performance from an obviously committed conductor and orchestra.  Which led me to a few thoughts - most of which firmly belong in the category of "stating the bloomin' obvious";
That's nice!

Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 04, 2023, 01:26:04 AM1)  The work is a piece of utter genius
2)  Any idea that this music "does not travel" is nonsense (clearly it chimes with Ukrainian conductor Karabits)
3)  The standard of modern orchestral playing is insanely high
4)  It ought to be a legal requirement for Elgar to be played with antiphonal violins (as it was here)
5)  We spend a lot of time (myself included) debating the qualities and virtues of other British composers from around 1900 - where others might be very good, only Elgar was a genius.  (I DON'T mean by this the likes of RVW/Holst etc - the "younger" generation at that point establishing themselves - I mean Elgar's contemporaries by age)
6)  How on earth did he self-teach himself to be such a brilliant orchestrator?!?!

1) Yes.  :D
2) Elgar has been "branded" poorly outside the UK. That's all it is. Re-brand him!
3) Perhaps...
4) Makes sense, because Elgar was an excellent user of orchestra.
5) Yeah, the genius of his generation and the first since Purcell in the UK.
6) Motivation + intelligence + talent + access to music scores I would say.

I believe one of the reasons that made Elgar what he is was that he self-teached himself so much. Instead of being "force-fed" with the subjective taste and preferences of music teacher(s), he was free to absorb his own favourite ways of composing from works of different time periods. Take Handel's writing for strings and combine that with the orchestration style of Berlioz and poetic music of Liszt etc. That perhaps provides greater stylistic versatility than being taught by a teacher who is a Wagner expert/fanatic.  :D
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 04, 2023, 05:02:35 AM
QuoteThat's nice!

1) Yes.  :D
2) Elgar has been "branded" poorly outside the UK. That's all it is. Re-brand him!
3) Perhaps...
4) Makes sense, because Elgar was an excellent user of orchestra.
5) Yeah, the genius of his generation and the first since Purcell in the UK.
6) Motivation + intelligence + talent + access to music scores I would say.

I believe one of the reasons that made Elgar what he is was that he self-teached himself so much. Instead of being "force-fed" with the subjective taste and preferences of music teacher(s), he was free to absorb his own favourite ways of composing from works of different time periods. Take Handel's writing for strings and combine that with the orchestration style of Berlioz and poetic music of Liszt etc. That perhaps provides greater stylistic versatility than being taught by a teacher who is a Wagner expert/fanatic. :D



Yes to all of the bolded above!  We all go with things we like in life - Elgar just had the natural genius to be able to absorb and then redefine for his own use what "floated his boat"!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: relm1 on February 04, 2023, 05:40:34 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 04, 2023, 02:26:49 AMThat's nice!

1) Yes.  :D
2) Elgar has been "branded" poorly outside the UK. That's all it is. Re-brand him!
3) Perhaps...
4) Makes sense, because Elgar was an excellent user of orchestra.
5) Yeah, the genius of his generation and the first since Purcell in the UK.
6) Motivation + intelligence + talent + access to music scores I would say.

I believe one of the reasons that made Elgar what he is was that he self-teached himself so much. Instead of being "force-fed" with the subjective taste and preferences of music teacher(s), he was free to absorb his own favourite ways of composing from works of different time periods. Take Handel's writing for strings and combine that with the orchestration style of Berlioz and poetic music of Liszt etc. That perhaps provides greater stylistic versatility than being taught by a teacher who is a Wagner expert/fanatic.  :D

I think he travels well, here in the US at least.  I've played Enigma twice with different orchestras and it's a hit with orchestra and audiences. Very fun to play and hear.  His concerti are very popular as well but his symphonies are pretty rare.  I do recall seeing No. 2 programmed but missed it.  I've attended a disastrous Dream of Gerontius (the very important tenor soloist lost his voice and was inaudible throughout).  Introduction and Allegro is always getting played. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 04, 2023, 06:48:02 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 04, 2023, 05:40:34 AMI think he travels well, here in the US at least.  I've played Enigma twice with different orchestras and it's a hit with orchestra and audiences. Very fun to play and hear.  His concerti are very popular as well but his symphonies are pretty rare.  I do recall seeing No. 2 programmed but missed it.  I've attended a disastrous Dream of Gerontius (the very important tenor soloist lost his voice and was inaudible throughout).  Introduction and Allegro is always getting played. 

Good to hear!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on February 04, 2023, 07:14:11 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 04, 2023, 05:40:34 AMI've attended a disastrous Dream of Gerontius (the very important tenor soloist lost his voice and was inaudible throughout). 
That's too bad. We had a superb Gerontius here in Boston, some years ago.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: relm1 on February 04, 2023, 05:09:13 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 04, 2023, 07:14:11 AMThat's too bad. We had a superb Gerontius here in Boston, some years ago.

Yes for me, it was with MTT/SFO and might have been career ending.  The poor soloist refused to return to bow and MTT had to explain the situation. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 14, 2023, 11:26:46 PM
Yesterday for no particular reason I listened to this famous Gerontius;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/818UbsLV8gL._AC_SL1200_.jpg)

Although famous its never been a favourite version of mine.  Heresy that it is I'm not a huge Barbirolli fan and the Halle could be pretty ragged.  BUT, to be fair and coming back to this version "fresh" it really is very good indeed.  Barbirolli's pacing of the work is excellent, the Halle play wonderfully (pretty well recorded for the date and venue too I thought) and the massed choirs sing with fervour, attack and very good ensemble.  Kim Borg I would happily swap out - he adds almost nothing to the performance and just sounds woolly and unconvincing.  Lewis sings well in a slightly "old-school" way (well the recording is nearly 60 years old!).  But of course Baker (rightly) takes the laurels.  Such an immediately identifiable sound but her phrasing and connection with the text is just matchless.

One other observation - I know Gerontius leaves a lot of folk quesasy because of the text/narrative but leaving that aside Elgar's musical handling, the orchestration, the formal control, the use of inter-related motifs is genuinely genius and way beyond any other equivalent British score of the time.  No surprise he wrote the "this is the best of me" comment when he completed it
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on April 15, 2023, 02:04:32 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 14, 2023, 11:26:46 PMYesterday for no particular reason I listened to this famous Gerontius;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/818UbsLV8gL._AC_SL1200_.jpg)

Although famous its never been a favourite version of mine. Heresy that it is I'm not a huge Barbirolli fan and the Halle could be pretty ragged.

I'm a Barbirolli heretic too. I think he is a decent/good Elgar conductor, but I prefer Sir Adrian Boult of that generation who in my opinion really understood Elgar's music.

Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 14, 2023, 11:26:46 PMOne other observation - I know Gerontius leaves a lot of folk quesasy because of the text/narrative

The text of Gerontius has never been an issue for me. My approach to music is dominantly musical and sonic while semantic aspects matters very little to me. If they did, I would really cringe with all religious classical music as an atheist, but fortunately I don't. I take the text as a product of its time which can be silly to modern people.

Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 14, 2023, 11:26:46 PM...but leaving that aside Elgar's musical handling, the orchestration, the formal control, the use of inter-related motifs is genuinely genius and way beyond any other equivalent British score of the time.  No surprise he wrote the "this is the best of me" comment when he completed it

As an Elgarian I will always agree when Elgar's handling of things is called genius.  :D Up until the completion of Gerontius in 1900 it was the "best of him". Only Enigma Variation could rival Gerontius, but in my opinion Elgar continued getting better for a decade after Gerontius. I consider The Apostles and The Kingdom both superior to Gerontius. Many consider these works "boring", but they aren't the kind of "showpieces" Gerontius is. They are deeper and more meditative. More sophisticated if you will. I think Elgar reached his full mastery with the Violin Concerto (1910) and the Second Symphony (1911). I believe this continuous slow development is because Elgar was largely self-taught. He had to "figure things out" himself, but this also gave the opportunity out of necessity to create a personal wonderful musical language that to me at least makes Elgar so special.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 15, 2023, 02:19:09 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 15, 2023, 02:04:32 AMI'm a Barbirolli heretic too. I think he is a decent/good Elgar conductor, but I prefer Sir Adrian Boult of that generation who in my opinion really understood Elgar's music.

The text of Gerontius has never been an issue for me. My approach to music is dominantly musical and sonic while semantic aspects matters very little to me. If they did, I would really cringe with all religious classical music as an atheist, but fortunately I don't. I take the text as a product of its time which can be silly to modern people.

As an Elgarian I will always agree when Elgar's handling of things is called genius.  :D Up until the completion of Gerontius in 1900 it was the "best of him". Only Enigma Variation could rival Gerontius, but in my opinion Elgar continued getting better for a decade after Gerontius. I consider The Apostles and The Kingdom both superior to Gerontius. Many consider these works "boring", but they aren't the kind of "showpieces" Gerontius is. They are deeper and more meditative. More sophisticated if you will. I think Elgar reached his full mastery with the Violin Concerto (1910) and the Second Symphony (1911). I believe this continuous slow development is because Elgar was largely self-taught. He had to "figure things out" himself, but this also gave the opportunity out of necessity to create a personal wonderful musical language that to me at least makes Elgar so special.

I agree with all you say.  Of course the "best of me" quote relates to where he was then on his creative journey and he did do even better!  I too would tend to prefer Boult to Barbirolli in this music but do revisit the Barbirolli Gerontius sometime - it is a tremendous version.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on April 15, 2023, 04:57:32 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 15, 2023, 02:04:32 AMI think Elgar reached his full mastery with the Violin Concerto (1910) and the Second Symphony (1911).

This. It woz the Windflower wot won it.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on April 15, 2023, 12:23:32 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 15, 2023, 02:19:09 AMI agree with all you say.  Of course the "best of me" quote relates to where he was then on his creative journey and he did do even better!  I too would tend to prefer Boult to Barbirolli in this music but do revisit the Barbirolli Gerontius sometime - it is a tremendous version.

Yeah, I need to put that on my "to do" list.  ;)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on April 15, 2023, 01:28:50 PM
^I can back that suggestion wholeheartedly; I love the Barbirolli Gerontius. I have another Gerontius that I also enjoy: Hickox on Chandos.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 21, 2023, 02:16:13 AM
Fairly randomly I revisited this old CD today;

(https://rovimusic.rovicorp.com/image.jpg?c=tpOVSHIXSjfJbsJ4meZJMoAf7E_1E-2MlBBPmPAXRBU=&f=4)

The disc also includes the Solti/LPO/Cockaigne.  A few observations;

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: relm1 on June 21, 2023, 05:48:41 AM
What is the favorite "In the South (Alassio)" recording?  Was thinking while reading RS's post above mine about Solti, I bet he made a great, great In the South...just don't think he ever did one.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 21, 2023, 05:55:33 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 21, 2023, 05:48:41 AMWhat is the favorite "In the South (Alassio)" recording?  Was thinking while reading RS's post above mine about Solti, I bet he made a great, great In the South...just don't think he ever did one.

Enjoy......


For my money 2nd only to Silvestri's


(the fact that Solti's well-regarded "In the South" is unknown here rather makes my point about these performances falling out of the current conciousness....)

EDIT:  PDO - the gift that keeps giving........  In the light of the above conversation I went and got out my copy of Solti/Egar 2 & In the South  (the Decca Headline Classics iteration of that coupling) and so thrilled to find its bronzed.  In the South (the 1st track) does play as does the 1st movement of the Symphony but after that all manner of mistracks etc etc.  PDO really did screw up didn't they!!??

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on June 21, 2023, 10:41:47 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 21, 2023, 02:16:13 AMFairly randomly I revisited this old CD today;

(https://rovimusic.rovicorp.com/image.jpg?c=tpOVSHIXSjfJbsJ4meZJMoAf7E_1E-2MlBBPmPAXRBU=&f=4)

The disc also includes the Solti/LPO/Cockaigne.  A few observations;

  • The P&C Marches are just tremendous pieces in every respect.  Once you get past the cultural associations/negative implications today of "Land of Hope & Glory" and listen to them as 'abstract' quick marches they are so good.  The less well-known Nos.2,3 & 5 are not just musically memorable but have an intriguing rather nervous quality.  One thing I had never noticed in years of having this disc - the LPO timpanist plays his own rather entertaining chromatic bass line in Nos.1&4
  • Solti IS very good in this repertoire.  His choice of tempi in the marches are spot-on - energetic when required but with a real sweep and nobility (yes that word) as well.
  • The Enigma suffers a bit from being too much of an orchestral showcase but its still an enjoyable version
  • The Decca analogue recordings in the old Kingsway Hall overseen by Kenneth Wilkinson are just stunning and the LPO is on great form
  • Perhaps Decca could collect together all of Solti's Elgar in one of their Blu-Ray remastered sets?
     The Symphonies, In the South and Violin Conc. still measure up well both as performances and certainly as recordings
  • For years Solti's Elgar symphonies were Penguin rosette performances but now little regarded I think.

I must admit that I have trouble listening to Pomp and Circumstance--associate to much with graduations!

Have enjoyed at least some of his Enigma Variations.  I should revisit those.

Do like In the South (forget whose recording/s I have of that one).

PD
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: relm1 on June 22, 2023, 05:20:46 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 21, 2023, 05:55:33 AMEnjoy......


For my money 2nd only to Silvestri's


(the fact that Solti's well-regarded "In the South" is unknown here rather makes my point about these performances falling out of the current conciousness....)

EDIT:  PDO - the gift that keeps giving........  In the light of the above conversation I went and got out my copy of Solti/Egar 2 & In the South  (the Decca Headline Classics iteration of that coupling) and so thrilled to find its bronzed.  In the South (the 1st track) does play as does the 1st movement of the Symphony but after that all manner of mistracks etc etc.  PDO really did screw up didn't they!!??


That was really good - so polished and driving.  Thanks for pointing me to it. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on July 16, 2023, 10:41:52 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 21, 2023, 05:48:41 AMWhat is the favorite "In the South (Alassio)" recording?  Was thinking while reading RS's post above mine about Solti, I bet he made a great, great In the South...just don't think he ever did one.

Sir Alexander Gibson on Chandos (CHAN 6652) is the recording to get.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: 71 dB on July 16, 2023, 10:46:44 AM
Elgar was a man of obscure small works even us Elgarians often don't know about. Recently I discovered Elgar's Duett for trombone and double bass in B-Flat major (1887). Only one minute long piece, but lovely!  :)

Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: kyjo on July 17, 2023, 06:14:10 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on July 16, 2023, 10:41:52 AMSir Alexander Gibson on Chandos (CHAN 6652) is the recording to get.

Oh, yes! An absolutely smashing, brilliant performance of In the South (along with Elgar's other overtures). The energy simply leaps out of the speakers!

https://youtu.be/8byqsIFNb9k
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on July 17, 2023, 06:59:08 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on July 16, 2023, 10:41:52 AMSir Alexander Gibson on Chandos (CHAN 6652) is the recording to get.

One of the first CDs I purchased in the '80s. Also worth a listen is the classic Silvestri recording with the Bournemouth SO. 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on July 24, 2023, 08:12:30 AM
Possibly wrong thread, but I think not. Leaving aside pre-conceived conceptions and bearing in mind that Leonard Slatkin is a chum I found the Hurwitz overview of Elgar's Violin Concerto fair, well researched and entertaining. Well, I enjoyed it. ;D

 https://youtu.be/8U7Gfn2YkZM
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 24, 2023, 10:36:57 AM
Quote from: Irons on July 24, 2023, 08:12:30 AMPossibly wrong thread, but I think not. Leaving aside pre-conceived conceptions and bearing in mind that Leonard Slatkin is a chum I found the Hurwitz overview of Elgar's Violin Concerto fair, well researched and entertaining. Well, I enjoyed it. ;D

 https://youtu.be/8U7Gfn2YkZM

I flicked through it - given some of the versions mentioned, I was surprised that Little's Chandos recording and Graffin with Handley were not mentioned since both have USP features as far as this work is concerned (not that that makes them 'great' versions of course).  For me Zukerman with Barenboim is wholly more impressive than his Slatkin remake.  I like Slatkin's Elgar and I take the point about the old Sony Essentials remastering but the performance is more striking from Zukermann with Barenboim - the remake doesn't quite have the rapier brilliance that he had before.  Another version I like a lot is Stefan Solyom, Catherine Manoukian & the Staatskapelle Weimar.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on July 24, 2023, 12:12:06 PM
I'm more and more convinced that, to the extent that it does indeed 'enshrine the soul' of the violin, Elgar's Concerto is one of the very finest examples of the genre. I listen to it over and over. It burns with humanity and lyricism.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on August 15, 2023, 10:52:45 AM
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on August 16, 2023, 06:02:21 PM
Gorgeous. The 'Welsh tune' first heard on the solo viola around 1'20 was first 'experienced' by Elgar (however one wishes to explain that) at this heavenly spot; I took this photo last year:
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Karl Henning on August 16, 2023, 06:25:11 PM
Quote from: Luke on August 16, 2023, 06:02:21 PMGorgeous. The 'Welsh tune' first heard on the solo viola around 1'20 was first 'experienced' by Elgar (however one wishes to explain that) at this heavenly spot; I took this photo last year:
Beautiful!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 17, 2023, 01:49:00 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 16, 2023, 06:02:21 PMGorgeous. The 'Welsh tune' first heard on the solo viola around 1'20 was first 'experienced' by Elgar (however one wishes to explain that) at this heavenly spot; I took this photo last year:
Where is that Luke?

And I agree with Karl's sentiments.

PD
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 17, 2023, 01:58:38 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 17, 2023, 01:49:00 AMWhere is that Luke?

And I agree with Karl's sentiments.

PD

I would assume here.....

https://www.llangrannog.org.uk/elgar.htm
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Luke on August 17, 2023, 02:29:15 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 17, 2023, 01:58:38 AMI would assume here.....

https://www.llangrannog.org.uk/elgar.htm

Yes, that's correct. Actually on the headland a mile or so north of Llangrannog, at the end of which is the tiny broken off island Ynys Lochtyn (which Elgar wrote incorrectly as Ynis Lochtryn)

Over the horizon, Ireland.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 05, 2023, 05:12:23 AM
Almost at random I listened to this disc today;

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkyNTg3NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MzI3Mjc5NzJ9)

I'm not always a fan of Elder's Elgar but this one struck me anew as very good.  Falstaff is a bit of a "marmite" piece even with Elgar admirer's but I think Elder makes an excellent case for this and the Halle playing/engineering is likewise very clear, articulate and unsentimental.  The Halle play the very very hard Falstaff (possibly Elgar's most demanding orchestral score) very well indeed.

Unsentimental characterises a lot of Elder's Elgar and it suits his Cello Concerto too with Heinrich Schiff.  I like the way Schiff plays with plenty of nobility and singing tone but he does not gush and swoon and over-phrase.  This is clear-headed Elgar playing to good effect.  The 2 smaller couplings are interesting fun; the bassoon Romance gets a good performance and the wonderfully silly "Smoking Cantata" is treated with absolutely correct po-faced humour.  This prompts me to re-listen to more Elder in this repertoire.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 20, 2024, 04:11:21 AM
A random dip into recordings of the Elgar Symphonies threw up this old set;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71qIkCJ4JqL._UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg)

In the days of LP the Symphonies here were Gramophone Guide Rosette performances but my sense is that they - along with much else Solti recorded - have rather fallen from grace.  The narrative that Solti "just" blasts his way through scores in a fast and often insensitive manner seems to hold sway these days.  And yes, in their time these performances were noted for the swift and flowing speeds emulating Elgar's own recordings.

Returning to them with "fresh" ears there is still - for me - so much to admire.  The engineering - classic Decca analogue from the Kingsway Hall overseen by Kenneth Wilkinson - still sounds superb.  Not wholly "natural" for sure but visceral and exciting and very well played by the LPO.  But also, so much of Solti's approach seems very effective too.  For sure he is NOT sentimental - with the benefit that he does not wallow in every big tune and lush harmony that comes his way - but at the same time he is fully aware of allowing themes to breath and phrases to be elegantly turned.  There are now many fine recordings of both symphonies but these fully deserve to be heard still.  The couplings of a wonderfully confident Cockaigne and dramatic In the South just add to the pleasure.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Iota on January 20, 2024, 05:28:57 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 20, 2024, 04:11:21 AMA random dip into recordings of the Elgar Symphonies threw up this old set;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71qIkCJ4JqL._UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg)

In the days of LP the Symphonies here were Gramophone Guide Rosette performances but my sense is that they - along with much else Solti recorded - have rather fallen from grace.  The narrative that Solti "just" blasts his way through scores in a fast and often insensitive manner seems to hold sway these days.  And yes, in their time these performances were noted for the swift and flowing speeds emulating Elgar's own recordings.

Returning to them with "fresh" ears there is still - for me - so much to admire.  The engineering - classic Decca analogue from the Kingsway Hall overseen by Kenneth Wilkinson - still sounds superb.  Not wholly "natural" for sure but visceral and exciting and very well played by the LPO.  But also, so much of Solti's approach seems very effective too. For sure he is NOT sentimental - with the benefit that he does not wallow in every big tune and lush harmony that comes his way - but at the same time he is fully aware of allowing themes to breath and phrases to be elegantly turned.  There are now many fine recordings of both symphonies but these fully deserve to be heard still.  The couplings of a wonderfully confident Cockaigne and dramatic In the South just add to the pleasure.

Precisely why that was the recording that opened up the symphonies to me. On previous attempts I'd found them heavy and wearyingly sentimental, and suddenly in Solti's hands they sounded fresh, the colour returning to their cheeks. It/I needed his energetic, dispassionate approach to reveal the qualities of the score to me.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidW on January 20, 2024, 05:39:46 AM
I also like the Oramo recordings (and his Nielsen is also great).  He is also not indulgent and still finds the emotional depth.

(https://c02.purpledshub.com/uploads/sites/43/2020/05/elgar_oramo_cmyk-e87d846.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71koMwGrJJL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 20, 2024, 07:02:39 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 20, 2024, 05:39:46 AMI also like the Oramo recordings (and his Nielsen is also great).  He is also not indulgent and still finds the emotional depth.

(https://c02.purpledshub.com/uploads/sites/43/2020/05/elgar_oramo_cmyk-e87d846.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71koMwGrJJL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)


I like Oramo a lot in general.  When I said "there are now many fine recordings of both symphonies" these Oramo versions were some of what I had in mind.....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 20, 2024, 07:06:09 AM
Quote from: Iota on January 20, 2024, 05:28:57 AMPrecisely why that was the recording that opened up the symphonies to me. On previous attempts I'd found them heavy and wearyingly sentimental, and suddenly in Solti's hands they sounded fresh, the colour returning to their cheeks. It/I needed his energetic, dispassionate approach to reveal the qualities of the score to me.

Interestingly if you go back to say Boult's early recordings (I'm particularly thinking of his 1940's No.2 with The Philharmonic Promenade Orchestra - the LPO moonlighting) it is very fiery and not at all wallowy.  In fact there are now quite a few "lean" performances.  But that said I do enjoy Sinopoli's opulent grandeur as a polar opposite approach too!
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on January 21, 2024, 12:39:20 AM
Boult is the man for me, Lyrita and EMI. Boult also recorded 2 with Scottish National Orchestra (1963) which I have no idea if released on CD. I enjoy Solti, good VC with Chung too, and also give a shout for Sir Charles Mackerras on Argo. His recording of the second symphony is one of the best I have heard.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: DavidW on January 21, 2024, 03:01:21 AM
Since Boult is my go to in RVW, I've always wanted to try his Elgar.  Someday! 
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Atriod on January 21, 2024, 05:26:00 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 21, 2024, 12:39:20 AMBoult is the man for me, Lyrita and EMI. Boult also recorded 2 with Scottish National Orchestra (1963) which I have no idea if released on CD. I enjoy Solti, good VC with Chung too, and also give a shout for Sir Charles Mackerras on Argo. His recording of the second symphony is one of the best I have heard.

Are all the Boult Lyrita CDs of Symphony 1 and 2 a CD-R or is that a recent thing? I ended up returning mine years ago as it wasn't advertised as such and I've had plenty of CD-Rs stop playing after a while.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: relm1 on January 21, 2024, 05:42:04 AM
You know who is shockingly good with Elgar? Eugene Jochum.  Surprises me because you'd expect Boult to hit a home run in this but I tend to think of Jochum better suited in German classical repertoire.


Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Atriod on January 21, 2024, 05:43:38 AM
Quote from: relm1 on January 21, 2024, 05:42:04 AMYou know who is shockingly good with Elgar? Eugene Jochum.  Surprises me because you'd expect Boult to hit a home run in this but I tend to think of Jochum better suited in German classical repertoire.




I heard this when I got Jochum's DG mega box, indeed a great performance. A more recent Enigma Variations that made my favorites list is Ashkenazy with Sydney Symphony (also coupled with a hot In The South).
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on January 21, 2024, 11:33:09 PM
Quote from: Atriod on January 21, 2024, 05:26:00 AMAre all the Boult Lyrita CDs of Symphony 1 and 2 a CD-R or is that a recent thing? I ended up returning mine years ago as it wasn't advertised as such and I've had plenty of CD-Rs stop playing after a while.

I am probably the last person on GMG qualified to advise you on that. My Lyrita recordings are all on LP.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 22, 2024, 02:00:45 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 21, 2024, 12:39:20 AMBoult is the man for me, Lyrita and EMI. Boult also recorded 2 with Scottish National Orchestra (1963) which I have no idea if released on CD. I enjoy Solti, good VC with Chung too, and also give a shout for Sir Charles Mackerras on Argo. His recording of the second symphony is one of the best I have heard.

Boult/SNO never released on CD - I had it in its old CFP LP incarnation.....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: vers la flamme on January 22, 2024, 02:28:38 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 20, 2024, 04:11:21 AMA random dip into recordings of the Elgar Symphonies threw up this old set;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71qIkCJ4JqL._UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg)

In the days of LP the Symphonies here were Gramophone Guide Rosette performances but my sense is that they - along with much else Solti recorded - have rather fallen from grace.  The narrative that Solti "just" blasts his way through scores in a fast and often insensitive manner seems to hold sway these days.  And yes, in their time these performances were noted for the swift and flowing speeds emulating Elgar's own recordings.

Returning to them with "fresh" ears there is still - for me - so much to admire.  The engineering - classic Decca analogue from the Kingsway Hall overseen by Kenneth Wilkinson - still sounds superb.  Not wholly "natural" for sure but visceral and exciting and very well played by the LPO.  But also, so much of Solti's approach seems very effective too.  For sure he is NOT sentimental - with the benefit that he does not wallow in every big tune and lush harmony that comes his way - but at the same time he is fully aware of allowing themes to breath and phrases to be elegantly turned.  There are now many fine recordings of both symphonies but these fully deserve to be heard still.  The couplings of a wonderfully confident Cockaigne and dramatic In the South just add to the pleasure.

I just got this set recently and have been enjoying it greatly.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on January 22, 2024, 08:01:51 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 22, 2024, 02:00:45 AMBoult/SNO never released on CD - I had it in its old CFP LP incarnation.....

I did wonder. Thanks.
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 23, 2024, 09:49:40 AM
Revisiting more Elgar discs today led to this one;

(https://i.discogs.com/5CetNzRusxvdmTuXGDWSxZyABpjhDDVoc420ueApDz4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:40/h:300/w:300/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTk4Njk1/NjYtMTQ4NzY3ODc4/Ni00NDg5LmpwZWc.jpeg)

Another fine disc - very well played and recorded (by Brian Culverhouse) in Henry Wood Hall.  Butt has a fairly broad and opulent approach to this music but it emerges as wonderfully grand.  "In the South" is obviously a fine work and "Froissart" shows so much promise but in some ways the other 2 works had me thinking more today.  They are the Meditation from "Light of Life" and the 1910 "Coronation March".  The former is a genuinely beautiful and heart-felt work.  yes for sure there is more than a whiff of Victorian piety but with that sense of sincerity that Elgar could produce that disarms criticism.

With the Coronation March - it struck me how subtle and skilfull Egar is in these nominally "occasional" marches.  The easy/lazy criticism that these marches "just" embody a kind of Colonial/Imperial arrogance is to fundamentally not understand them.  There is a sense of unease and doubt in just about ALL of Elgar's marches that disarms such criticism.  Apart from "Land of Hope and Glory" (where Elgar hated the words written after he'd written the march) ALL his marches have this quality.  Unlike say Walton - often cited as Elgar's march-heir who literally wrote one march (and a trmendous one it is - Crown Imperial) about ten times!

I suspect people who believe that Elgar's marches asre just jingoistic haven't really listened to them all or at all.......
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on January 26, 2024, 12:12:30 AM
Inspired by RS post above I decided to stray off the beaten track of Elgar recordings on my shelves.

(https://i.imgur.com/mIeFleP.jpg)

George Weldon is largely forgotten since his death and not exactly a prolific recording artist during his lifetime.
I enjoyed his Elgar very much. 'Cockaigne' is, as it must be, brisk and dynamic with moments of calm.
The standout track for me 'Chanson de Martin' meltingly beautiful, never heard it better.
Marches are very good as is Serenade for Strings. A most satisfying all-round Elgar recording.   
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Atriod on January 27, 2024, 05:24:04 AM
Quote from: Irons on January 22, 2024, 08:01:51 AMI did wonder. Thanks.

The LPO recordings of the first two symphonies were released by Lyrita on CD. Was there a reason Lyrita recorded Symphony 2 twice with the same conductor but a different orchestra?
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 27, 2024, 09:04:59 AM
Quote from: Atriod on January 27, 2024, 05:24:04 AMThe LPO recordings of the first two symphonies were released by Lyrita on CD. Was there a reason Lyrita recorded Symphony 2 twice with the same conductor but a different orchestra?

Not sure sure what you mean.  With Boult Lyrita only recorded the Elgar symphonies once - with the LPO.  One of their earliest recordings.....
Title: Re: Elgar's Hillside
Post by: Irons on January 28, 2024, 12:33:31 AM
Quote from: Atriod on January 27, 2024, 05:24:04 AMThe LPO recordings of the first two symphonies were released by Lyrita on CD. Was there a reason Lyrita recorded Symphony 2 twice with the same conductor but a different orchestra?


Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 27, 2024, 09:04:59 AMNot sure sure what you mean.  With Boult Lyrita only recorded the Elgar symphonies once - with the LPO.  One of their earliest recordings.....

Maybe that I mentioned another Boult recording of the 2nd Symphony has caused some confusion.