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The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: Simula on August 16, 2016, 07:58:20 AM

Title: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Simula on August 16, 2016, 07:58:20 AM
I do. I think he was a composer of original creativity and uniqueness. Because his taste was so eccentric I think his genius has been smothered because people pay attention to the wrong thing. What do you think? 
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Parsifal on August 16, 2016, 09:18:26 AM
His music is widely available and I think people who are aware of his music are perfectly capable of evaluating it.

I find the notion of an artist being "underrated" hard to justify.  I find it more plausible that there are artists whose works are not well known, for various reasons, and who's works deserve more exposure. Hard to claim this for Scriabin, since is major works are all available in multiple recordings from major artists.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Simula on August 16, 2016, 09:33:37 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 16, 2016, 09:18:26 AM
His music is widely available and I think people who are aware of his music are perfectly capable of evaluating it. I find the notion of an artist being "underrated" hard to justify.  I find it more plausible that there are artists whose works are not well known, for various reasons, and who's works deserve from more exposure. Hard to claim this for Scriabin, since is major works are all available in multiple recordings from major artists.

You're an insider, insider appreciation doesn't count.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Parsifal on August 16, 2016, 09:43:54 AM
Quote from: Simula on August 16, 2016, 09:33:37 AM
You're an insider, insider appreciation doesn't count.

?
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Mandryka on August 16, 2016, 09:50:38 AM
Quote from: Simula on August 16, 2016, 07:58:20 AM
I do. I think he was a composer of original creativity and uniqueness. Because his taste was so eccentric I think his genius has been smothered because people pay attention to the wrong thing. What do you think?

What's the wrong thing they pay attention to?

Just thinking of the piano music, IMO  all the music before the 5th sonata is overrated.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Simula on August 16, 2016, 10:18:17 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 16, 2016, 09:50:38 AM
What's the wrong thing they pay attention to?

His mysticism. His strange spiritualism.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Mandryka on August 16, 2016, 01:13:53 PM
Quote from: Simula on August 16, 2016, 10:18:17 AM
His mysticism. His strange spiritualism.

Why do you think he called his music things like "black mass"? I mean communicated something mystical was a part of what he was trying to achieve maybe. In fact I've never thought about this question before - but I'd quite like to know how the music ties in with the ideas in the titles.

I confess to being really quite interested in Blavatsky, how she seemed to influence so many people, poets and musicians.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: North Star on August 16, 2016, 01:21:25 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 16, 2016, 01:13:53 PM
Why do you think he called his music things like "black mass"? I mean communicated something mystical was a part of what he was trying to achieve maybe. In fact I've never thought about this question before - but I'd quite like to know how the music ties in with the ideas in the titles.

I confess to being really quite interested in Blavatsky, how she seemed to influence so many people, poets and musicians.
Scriabin called the 7th Sonata 'White Mass', and someone else called the 9th 'Black Mass', apparently Scriabin approved the nickname, though.

Then there's the 'Insect Sonata' :D
Quote from: Scriabin"My Tenth Sonata is a sonata of insects. Insects are born from the sun [...] they are the kisses of the sun."
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Spawnofsatan on August 16, 2016, 02:26:37 PM
Scriabin is boring
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on August 16, 2016, 03:05:28 PM
There are many many recordings available of his music, many performances and also quite a lot of scholarly writings on him and his music. Underrated? You be the judge. I am happy there is so much Scriabin stuff that has been published. It'll keep me busy for a long time.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on August 16, 2016, 03:08:16 PM
Quote from: Spawnofsatan on August 16, 2016, 02:26:37 PM
Scriabin is boring

(https://i.imgflip.com/whqb3.jpg)
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on August 16, 2016, 03:17:20 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on August 16, 2016, 03:13:02 PM
Well I haven't a strong opinion on the question, I don't think he is as highly praised as a lot of the other composers of that time eg. Schoenberg or Debussy for example.
He does seem quite popular in small circles of pianists but I can't say I hear of his music been performed much (outside of those circles and the recordings available)
Somebody I think is extremely underrated is Sorabji. He continued on from where Scriabin left off, but with a lot of the compulsions of Mahler and Ives, though harmonically like Scriabin.

Yes, Scriabin's piano Sonatas, Etudes and Preludes have kept me busy from time to time, as With Prometheus and Poem of Esctacy  :laugh:
Well my post of course is in comparison to dreadfully underrated composers who get so little recognition that they don't really even get many performances of their music at all (talking about thatfabulousalien)
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 16, 2016, 03:27:57 PM
I don't know you think Scriabin is underrated. His reputation ranks right up there with any composer outside of the obvious top 10-20 or so.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Cato on August 16, 2016, 03:35:29 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on August 16, 2016, 03:13:02 PM
Well I haven't a strong opinion on the question, I don't think he is as highly praised as a lot of the other composers of that time eg. Schoenberg or Debussy for example.
He does seem quite popular in small circles of pianists but I can't say I hear of his music been performed much (outside of those circles and the recordings available)
Somebody I think is extremely underrated is Sorabji. He continued on from where Scriabin left off, but with a lot of the compulsions of Mahler and Ives, though harmonically like Scriabin.

Yes, Scriabin's piano Sonatas, Etudes and Preludes have kept me busy from time to time, as With Prometheus and Poem of Esctacy  :laugh:

Sorabji was a grand eccentric in the tradition of both Scriabin and Ives.

There is speculation that Wyschnegradsky followed "where Scriabin left off."

See e.g.

http://www.gavindixon.info/Ivan_Wyschnegradsky.htm (http://www.gavindixon.info/Ivan_Wyschnegradsky.htm)


QuoteThe long shadow of Alexander Scriabin hangs over all of Wyschnegradsky's work. Scriabin's influence on Russian musicians in the years leading up to the Revolution and beyond is difficult to overestimate. He combined the maniacal keyboard virtuosity of Liszt with a dark mysticism: Satanic Poem and Black Mass are names that appear amongst his piano works. Just as significantly, his music extended the harmonic palette available to the pianist to the point where traditional tonal harmony faded into the background, making way for a musical vocabulary based more on psychologically powerful, if functionally ambiguous, harmonic colours. Wyschnegradsky and Scriabin were of a similar personal temperament, both saw music as capable of manifesting mystical and other-worldly states of consciousness, and while both wrote for a variety of ensembles, the focus of each man's art was the piano keyboard.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Simula on August 16, 2016, 04:48:12 PM
Quote from: Spawnofsatan on August 16, 2016, 02:26:37 PM
Scriabin is boring

It is clear to me that this is not a reflection on the composer.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on August 16, 2016, 06:12:55 PM
Quote from: Spawnofsatan on August 16, 2016, 02:26:37 PM
Scriabin is boring

Other than those few symphonic works which are so over the top eccentric, The Poem of Ecstasy and Prometheus, or The Poeme of Fire from 1908 and 1910, respectively, with his most 'advanced' harmony, I find the rest of only academic interest and that quite agrees with your opinion, 'Boring.' His other works, piano, orchestral, sound like Chopin approached with a later developed vocabulary, The piano concerto and other earlier symphonies are painfully dull as ditch water second-tier late romantic pieces of which there is, generically, an overabundance. (Of course, that is, to me.)

Too, the musical 'vocabulary' was already something very much in the air, and I doubt if Scriabin's influence brought much to bear on the composers of the Pierrot Lunaire of 1912 or Le Sacre du Printemps of 1913, i.e. these were the big game changers. There may be more similarities, ergo 'influence' upon Stravinsky and what we hear in his Firebird of 1910, while it is always important to keep in mind all the other 'advanced' harmonic ventures and usage of the immediate years surrounding these works as done by others, as often enough some trends of innovation seem to pop up simultaneously in very different locales without the creators being at all aware of the works of others.

I think Scriabin is assessed "by the establishment" (and the general listening public), like so many others, in pretty much exactly the right degree and 'rank.'  I.e. he is of some interest, and had a small influence without saying that changed the direction of the general tide.


Best regards.

Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Daverz on August 16, 2016, 06:16:56 PM
His overheated style is generally not my thing.  Also, I think the piano was his metier, but I'm not much of a pianophile.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on August 16, 2016, 06:18:35 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on August 16, 2016, 03:13:02 PM
Well I haven't a strong opinion on the question, I don't think he is as highly praised as a lot of the other composers of that time eg. Schoenberg or Debussy for example.
He does seem quite popular in small circles of pianists but I can't say I hear of his music been performed much (outside of those circles and the recordings available)
Somebody I think is extremely underrated is Sorabji. He continued on from where Scriabin left off, but with a lot of the compulsions of Mahler and Ives, though harmonically like Scriabin.

Yes, Scriabin's piano Sonatas, Etudes and Preludes have kept me busy from time to time, as With Prometheus and Poem of Esctacy  :laugh:

Sorabji is at least as boring -- if not even more so than Scriabin.  I mean, music as affected, synthetic, pretentious and severely dated (as in has not aged well, at all) as the pseudonym he chose by which he is known to us is about as academic and sterile as it gets.  Big whoop, he wrote a lot of it and it is one of those Mt. Everests (the piano works) that many a performer will climb "Because it it there." lol.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Simula on August 16, 2016, 06:29:03 PM
Yes, there are lots of composers, but not lots with the quality of Scriabin.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Mirror Image on August 16, 2016, 06:42:45 PM
I'll be honest and say the only work by Scriabin that really affected in me was his Symphony No. 3, "The Divine Poem". The first movement alone is a masterpiece. I also do enjoy his Piano Concerto a lot as well.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Simula on August 16, 2016, 06:51:26 PM
There is no such thing as a composer whose every work is liked.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 16, 2016, 07:13:23 PM
Quote from: Simula on August 16, 2016, 06:51:26 PM
There is no such thing as a composer whose every work is liked.
For you....
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on August 16, 2016, 07:13:29 PM
Quote from: Simula on August 16, 2016, 06:29:03 PM
Yes, there are lots of composers, but not lots with the quality of Scriabin.

Yes
~ there are very few people who are so neurotic and imbalanced that they are one and a half steps away from being readily certifiable as in-patient for a psychiatric ward who can still function and compose pretty well, ~
you are right, there
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on August 16, 2016, 07:17:13 PM
Quote from: Simula on August 16, 2016, 06:51:26 PM
There is no such thing as a composer whose every work is liked.

Evidently, you have not checked in with the mono obsessed:
Bach Nutters' Societies
Mozart Nutters' Societies
Beethoven Nutters' Societies
Wagner Nutters' Societies

I'm sure I've omitted far more than several other Composer X  Nutters' Societies as well....
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on August 16, 2016, 07:29:01 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on August 16, 2016, 07:17:13 PM
Evidently, you have not checked in with the mono obsessed:
Bach Nutters' Societies
Mozart Nutters' Societies
Beethoven Nutters' Societies
Wagner Nutters' Societies

I'm sure I've omitted far more than several other Composer X  Nutters' Societies as well....

I think some people here are members of a havergal brian nutter's society but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on August 16, 2016, 08:16:44 PM
Quote from: jessop on August 16, 2016, 07:29:01 PM
I think some people here are members of a Havergal Brian nutters' society but I could be wrong.

I have the same shudder-inducing feeling myself ;-)
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Mandryka on August 16, 2016, 09:29:16 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on August 16, 2016, 06:16:56 PM
^^
Interesting you say because I happen to hear Schoenberg's Op 11, as heavily similar to Scriabin.

Yes, I can hear why - does anyone know if there's a real connection?
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: vandermolen on August 16, 2016, 11:55:22 PM
I'm interested in this thread as I'm currently researching to write a CD booklet note for a forthcoming CD of Symphony 1 and Poem of Ecstasy. The Symphony 1 is my favourite work by Scriabin although I'm not so sure about the last movement with its vocal setting of the composer's poem.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Ghost Sonata on August 17, 2016, 06:18:15 AM
Some excellent points in this thread.  Simula's concern that Scriabin is underrated is the natural expression of his love for that composer (I share it - he's in my top twenty).  Of course, expecting the world to assent to one's enthusiasms is not esp. favorable for mental health... There are some here who may consider him overrated!   

Still, where on the spectrum of great composers does Scriabin fall?  Dunno where Casey Kasem ranks him this week (er, yes, this reference indicates my skepticism of such things) but I think Grove, if only by default, can be relied on here to offer a balanced (or 'generally accepted') view : "While his major orchestral works have fallen out of and subsequently into vogue, his piano compositions inspired the greatest of Russian pianists to give their most noteworthy performances...The cycle of ten sonatas is arguably of the most consistent high quality since that of Beethoven and acquired growing numbers of champions throughout the 20th century...Skryabin is the most representative composer of the Russian Silver Age, arguably one of the most remarkable periods in the development of human culture."  This is high praise.  Clearly, he is viewed as a Major Composer and to be cited in the same sentence as Beethoven impressive proof of that.

If more is needed, it's worth remembering that upon the shifting sands of music appreciation, Schubert was not generally valued until the 20th century, and I believe his star rises still.  Simula, if he wants, can swing into action and join any of the many Scriabin societies one of whose goals is to further appreciation of him.  Or encouraging performances locally, or buying great performances of Scriabin on CD and giving them to public libraries to spread the word. (I've done that with work I wanted others to hear). 

Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Ghost Sonata on August 17, 2016, 06:19:39 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 16, 2016, 11:55:22 PM
I'm interested in this thread as I'm currently researching to write a CD booklet note for a forthcoming CD of Symphony 1 and Poem of Ecstasy. The Symphony 1 is my favourite work by Scriabin although I'm not so sure about the last movement with its vocal setting of the composer's poem.

So, how are you going to spell his name? :)
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Simula on August 17, 2016, 08:38:54 AM
If one listens to the expression of modern composers in contrast to Scriabin, one can easily hear that Scriabin actually had something to say!
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Karl Henning on August 17, 2016, 09:42:05 AM
Quote from: Simula on August 17, 2016, 08:38:54 AM
If one listens to the expression of modern composers in contrast to Scriabin, one can easily hear that Scriabin actually had something to say!

Oh, I'm feelin' the love.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Mandryka on August 17, 2016, 09:49:23 AM
Quote from: Simula on August 17, 2016, 08:38:54 AM
If one listens to the expression of modern composers in contrast to Scriabin, one can easily hear that Scriabin actually had something to say!

What did he have to say?

I mean, in those late pieces, things like Vers la Flamme, you kind of feel there's an idea in there trying to get out - I don't mean a musical idea.

Another composer who has something to say is Nono.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Ghost Sonata on August 17, 2016, 10:20:51 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 17, 2016, 09:42:05 AM
Oh, I'm feelin' the love.

:) ;D :laugh:
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Simula on August 17, 2016, 01:43:07 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 17, 2016, 09:42:05 AM
Oh, I'm feelin' the love.

Yes but you are mistaken my friend, we do not love the music of Scriabin because we love Scriabin, we love Scriabin because he wrote such quality music.   
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: vandermolen on August 17, 2016, 01:45:53 PM
Quote from: Ghost Sonata on August 17, 2016, 06:19:39 AM
So, how are you going to spell his name? :)
Not too sure! How do you suggest? Like 'Miaskovsky' (my preference) or 'Myaskovsky' (the CD company's preference). I think I'd go for 'Skryabin' but I'll gave to do what they want as it should be a uniform spelling.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on August 17, 2016, 02:23:29 PM
Quote from: Simula on August 17, 2016, 01:43:07 PM
Yes but you are mistaken my friend, we do not love the music of Scriabin because we love Scriabin, we love Scriabin because he wrote such quality music.   
Well we also love karlhenning :)
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: James on August 17, 2016, 02:27:39 PM
Quote from: Simula on August 16, 2016, 07:58:20 AM
I do. I think he was a composer of original creativity and uniqueness. Because his taste was so eccentric I think his genius has been smothered because people pay attention to the wrong thing. What do you think?

I'd say he's rated just right, with important works to his credit .. . he'd definitely make a list of let's say 200 of the most significant composers in the history of western music.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Jo498 on August 17, 2016, 11:36:47 PM
I am not an expert, but I'd also say he his rated about right. In any case he fares much better as far as performances and recordings of renowned artists go  than many other composers between late romanticism and modernism, e.g. Medtner, Reger, Pfitzner, Busoni, Roussel, Miaskowsky and many others.
This is probably mainly due to the piano works regularly played by famous pianists.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Ghost Sonata on August 18, 2016, 05:42:08 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 17, 2016, 01:45:53 PM
Not too sure! How do you suggest? Like 'Miaskovsky' (my preference) or 'Myaskovsky' (the CD company's preference). I think I'd go for 'Skryabin' but I'll gave to do what they want as it should be a uniform spelling.

Can readily understand why a CD company would want consistency within their own product line.  If Grove sez Skryabin it's good enough for me.  I often marveled at the French Scriabine , until I realized they must add the 'e' to make certain the 'n' is pronounced. Now Miaskovsky, there's an underrated composer for Mr. Simula, and whose cause deserves taking up.  In the forties in the U.S. he would be mentioned in the same breath as Rach and Tchaik.  Now even classical fans don't recognize his name.  Better to have been loved and lost? Unsure about that...

Didja' see the article about Nikolai Fedorovich Federov in the Jan. issue of Harper's?  Can scan and send if you're interested. I believe there is a kind of quintessentially Russian, cosmological link between him and Skryabin. 
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on August 18, 2016, 01:39:20 PM
"So how are you going to spell his name?" ~ Ghost Sonata

Quote from: vandermolen on August 17, 2016, 01:45:53 PM
Not too sure! How do you suggest? Like 'Miaskovsky' (my preference) or 'Myaskovsky' (the CD company's preference). I think I'd go for 'Skryabin' but I'll gave to do what they want as it should be a uniform spelling.

There has not been, to date, any one set and standard way to render spellings of Russian names when they are set from Cyrillic into the European / Latin alphabet, and of course further inconsistencies proliferate as the names are put into the Latin alphabet and set as the best approximate homonym within how a particular language's sounds work, varying from country to country.

...Russian names then put into the Latin alphabet are inconsistent from country to country -- just as place names are altered from the original language into languages of different countries.

In scores or other writings in German, "Igor Strawinsky" has always made me grin, even though I know that is a proper rendering of the name with the Latin alphabet in German.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: king ubu on August 18, 2016, 01:47:00 PM
Skrjabin

But in my list I type Scriabin for consistency ... underrated or not, who am I to tell? (Not in this house, I think.)
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on August 18, 2016, 02:14:53 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on August 18, 2016, 01:39:20 PM
["So how are you going t o spell his name?" ~ Ghost Sonata

quote author=vandermolen link=topic=26101.msg990672#msg990672 date=1471470353]
Not too sure! How do you suggest? Like 'Miaskovsky' (my preference) or 'Myaskovsky' (the CD company's preference). I think I'd go for 'Skryabin' but I'll gave to do what they want as it should be a uniform spelling.


There has not been, to date, any one set and standard way to render spellings of Russian names when they are set from Cyrillic into the European / Latin alphabet, and of course further inconsistencies proliferate as the names are put into the Latin alphabet and set as the best approximate homonym within how a particular language's sounds work, varying from country to country.

...Russian names then put into the Latin alphabet are inconsistent from country to country -- just as place names are altered from the original language into languages of different countries.

In scores or other writings in German, "Igor Strawinsky" has always made me grin, even though I know that is a proper rendering of the name with the Latin alphabet in German.
Reminds me of the famous 19th century pianist composer Szopen.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: vandermolen on August 18, 2016, 11:16:08 PM
Quote from: Ghost Sonata on August 18, 2016, 05:42:08 AM
Can readily understand why a CD company would want consistency within their own product line.  If Grove sez Skryabin it's good enough for me.  I often marveled at the French Scriabine , until I realized they must add the 'e' to make certain the 'n' is pronounced. Now Miaskovsky, there's an underrated composer for Mr. Simula, and whose cause deserves taking up.  In the forties in the U.S. he would be mentioned in the same breath as Rach and Tchaik.  Now even classical fans don't recognize his name.  Better to have been loved and lost? Unsure about that...

Didja' see the article about Nikolai Fedorovich Federov in the Jan. issue of Harper's?  Can scan and send if you're interested. I believe there is a kind of quintessentially Russian, cosmological link between him and Skryabin.
No, never saw the article. I have seen two live Miaskovsky symphonies in the UK in the last ten years which is better than nothing I guess. He was more popular in the West during the 40s due to the 'Grand Alliance' (as Churchill named it) or 'Anti-Hitler Coalition' (as the USSR more accurately called it). This was when the Chicago SO commissioned Symphony 21 from Miaskovsky - one of his finest, most concise and eloquent scores. Morton Gould's recording with the Chicago SO has just been issued on CD for the first time in a Chicago SO boxed set. Sorry, mustn't derail the thread.
I have been listening a lot to Symphony 1 by Skryabin recently and liking it more and more notwithstanding reservations about the vocal finale and I'm getting to appreciate the Poem of Ecstasy more too.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: uli90 on August 22, 2016, 11:39:23 AM
Yes, veeery underrated  :-[
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Androcles on August 28, 2016, 03:04:19 PM
I think his influence on a whole generation of Russian composers is underrated, although its probably fair to say his influence was largely within Russia.

His music, largely for the piano with some orchestral works of note, perhaps is not. The earlier sonatas, preludes etc are eminently listenable, and fit well with other piano pieces of the period. The later works are more experimental - and will probably not garner a particularly audience despite their influence. Of the orchestral works only the later ones are worth listening to (Symphony No.1, for example is pretty appalling). They are original and intense, but a little too mystical (I mean closely connected with Scriabin's very distinct worldview) to really light the imagination of a very large number of listeners.

Scriabin is not to be passed over, but he is not as significant either in terms of his influence or expressive power as Alban Berg, who in my view is probably more underrated.

In fact there is a whole set of Russian futurists who took the explorations further and are probably equally deserving of performance. Unfortunately, they are not so familiar as they were suppressed by the Soviet state. Roslavets (quite a major composer who developed his own version of the 12 tone system, influenced by Scriabin), Obukhov (even crazier), Wyshnegradsky, Protopopov (heavy metal piano sonatas), Feinberg (piano music very similar to that of Scriabin), Zaderatsky (major piano composer), Mossolov (futurist) and others. Its in this artistic melee that more famous composers such as Prokofiev and Shostakovich developed and found their distinctive voices.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Jo498 on August 28, 2016, 10:48:31 PM
Berg is rated very highly, I'd think. Certainly by far the most "popular" of the Viennese school.

As for Scriabin: He ist MUCH better known than any of the Russian "Futurists" you mention. I'd say he is closer to overrated than underrated compared to many of those or also Miaskovsky or about a dozen non-Russion early 20th century composers, e.g. Busoni.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Androcles on August 29, 2016, 03:11:42 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 28, 2016, 10:48:31 PM
Berg is rated very highly, I'd think. Certainly by far the most "popular" of the Viennese school.

As for Scriabin: He ist MUCH better known than any of the Russian "Futurists" you mention. I'd say he is closer to overrated than underrated compared to many of those or also Miaskovsky or about a dozen non-Russion early 20th century composers, e.g. Busoni.

Wrt Scriabin, I totally agree. Those other composers, Russian or otherwise are probably just as worthy.

Personally I think that Berg is a good deal better than Schoenberg, and possibly up there with Mahler. Pretty much everything he wrote was a game-changing masterpiece in the genre he wrote it. Probably more influential than either on later music (I know thats debatable). I'm not sure the reception in the classical world really reflects that kind of view of him. Where I live he almost never gets performed.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Cato on August 29, 2016, 05:47:57 AM
Quote from: Androcles on August 28, 2016, 03:04:19 PM
I think his influence on a whole generation of Russian composers is underrated, although its probably fair to say his influence was largely within Russia.

In fact there is a whole set of Russian futurists who took the explorations further and are probably equally deserving of performance. Unfortunately, they are not so familiar as they were suppressed by the Soviet state. Roslavets (quite a major composer who developed his own version of the 12 tone system, influenced by Scriabin), Obukhov (even crazier), Wyshnegradsky, Protopopov (heavy metal piano sonatas), Feinberg (piano music very similar to that of Scriabin), Zaderatsky (major piano composer), Mossolov (futurist) and others. Its in this artistic melee that more famous composers such as Prokofiev and Shostakovich developed and found their distinctive voices.

Nice summary: here on GMG there is a member who unfortunately does not have the time to visit very often, but he is also a composer of impressive ability, whose works show a Scriabinian echo: Luke Ottevanger.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: relm1 on August 10, 2018, 03:56:21 PM
I've been listening to Scriabin's No. 3 (NYPO/Sinopoli) and thinking, what a great and underrated composer this is.  So unique and very interesting musically.  Too bad he died so young.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Cato on August 10, 2018, 04:20:55 PM
Quote from: relm1 on August 10, 2018, 03:56:21 PM
I've been listening to Scriabin's No. 3 (NYPO/Sinopoli) and thinking, what a great and underrated composer this is.  So unique and very interesting musically.  Too bad he died so young.

Amen to both parts of your comment!   8)

Do you know of Alexander Nemtin's realization of Scriabin's sketches for the Prefatory Action/Mysterium ?

https://www.youtube.com/v/V4YSysUn-Bk

Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: relm1 on August 11, 2018, 05:32:00 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 10, 2018, 04:20:55 PM
Amen to both parts of your comment!   8)

Do you know of Alexander Nemtin's realization of Scriabin's sketches for the Prefatory Action/Mysterium ?

https://www.youtube.com/v/V4YSysUn-Bk

Know it?  I was at the world premiere!  I'll never forget the sight of the diminutive Vladimir Ashkenazy standing in front of 100's of musicians and torrents of sounds for chorus, organ, and orchestra.  The work ended and there was total silence.  He quietly looked to see if anyone in the audience is still left.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: San Antone on August 11, 2018, 06:11:54 AM
Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?

No.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Cato on August 11, 2018, 06:25:18 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 11, 2018, 05:32:00 AM
I was at the world premiere!  I'll never forget the sight of the diminutive Vladimir Ashkenazy standing in front of 100's of musicians and torrents of sounds for chorus, organ, and orchestra.  The work ended and their was total silence.  He quietly looked to see if anyone in the audience is still left.

Yes, I recall your story now!  It must have been quite an experience!
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: kyjo on August 11, 2018, 08:21:12 AM
I think his symphonies are underrated. They're hardly ever played on US concert programs (though The Poem of Ecstasy makes an occasional appearance).
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Christo on August 11, 2018, 09:05:31 AM
Errr, no, not really.  ;)
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 11, 2018, 12:05:53 PM
Scriabin suffers no identity problems among folks who recognize where the greatness lies in his output: his solo piano music. It's no mistake that his piano output outnumbers his symphonic output by a titanic margin.

Scriabin's symphonic output has its merits, especially Poem, but the truest indicators of his genius are to be found in his piano music.

For Scriabin, solo piano was no byway...it was where his light shone brightest.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: relm1 on August 11, 2018, 04:25:19 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 11, 2018, 12:05:53 PM
Scriabin suffers no identity problems among folks who recognize where the greatness lies in his output: his solo piano music. It's no mistake that his piano output outnumbers his symphonic output by a titanic margin.

Scriabin's symphonic output has its merits, especially Poem, but the truest indicators of his genius are to be found in his piano music.

For Scriabin, solo piano was no byway...it was where his light shone brightest.

But some of us hear his piano output as symphonic. 
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 12, 2018, 09:52:44 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 11, 2018, 04:25:19 PM
But some of us hear his piano output as symphonic. 

If I were one of those (thankfully very few) rabid HIPsters on the board I'd be screaming all sorts of foul!! ;D But hey, whatever turns you on. :) Although, I have to say, I can't think of another body of piano works LESS suited to the orchestra than Scriabin's.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Cato on August 12, 2018, 10:22:48 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 12, 2018, 09:52:44 AM
If I were one of those (thankfully very few) rabid HIPsters on the board I'd be screaming all sorts of foul!! ;D But hey, whatever turns you on. :) Although, I have to say, I can't think of another body of piano works LESS suited to the orchestra than Scriabin's.

In my younger days, I toyed with the idea of orchestrating the Ninth Sonata, but almost immediately - upon looking at my score of it - I saw all kinds of problematic questions, even on the opening page  (e.g. the descending figure in the left hand in bars 5-7, which adds a note every time it appears, from 3 16th-notes to 6 32nd-notes: should those resonate or not, and if so, for how long?).  To be sure, the problems are not insoluble, but...  $:)
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 12, 2018, 12:56:14 PM
Quote from: Cato on August 12, 2018, 10:22:48 AM
In my younger days, I toyed with the idea of orchestrating the Ninth Sonata, but almost immediately - upon looking at my score of it - I saw all kinds of problematic questions, even on the opening page  (e.g. the descending figure in the left hand in bars 5-7, which adds a note every time it appears, from 3 16th-notes to 6 32nd-notes: should those resonate or not, and if so, for how long?).  To be sure, the problems are not insoluble, but...  $:)

I don't play an instrument, nor read music professionally, but the daunting task of just where to put all those scurrying, half-lit notes would put my head into some kind of warp! Oh wait! ;D
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Cato on August 20, 2018, 04:18:01 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 12, 2018, 12:56:14 PM
I don't play an instrument, nor read music professionally, but the daunting task of just where to put all those scurrying, half-lit notes would put my head into some kind of warp! Oh wait! ;D


;)

In spite of those difficulties, Alexander Nemtin orchestrated certain piano pieces in a work called Nuances, and also included some orchestrated piano works by Scriabin in his realization of the Prefatory Action.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: relm1 on August 20, 2018, 04:29:16 PM
Quote from: Cato on August 20, 2018, 04:18:01 PM

;)

In spite of those difficulties, Alexander Nemtin orchestrated certain piano pieces in a work called Nuances, and also included some orchestrated piano works by Scriabin in his realization of the Prefatory Action.

I very much enjoy Nemtin's orchestration of Nuances as well as the multi CD Prefatory Act of Mysterium on the same release.  It's probably tbe best, most complete version we will ever hear of what might have been.  I think it is very successful. 
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: The Six on September 02, 2018, 02:43:00 PM
Scriabin seems to be mostly just an internet favorite. I've rarely seen his music programmed outside of piano competitions, and he's not played on the radio much. I think a lot of people who are only casual listeners of classical music don't even know who he is.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Uhor on September 02, 2018, 03:47:53 PM
Mature Scriabin doesn't develop and doesn't have any "good tunes", what is left is some kind of motivic teasing in the midst of changing textures and harmonic fields ultimately building to a climax.

The thing is, either you dig that or not.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: relm1 on September 03, 2018, 06:14:51 AM
Quote from: The Six on September 02, 2018, 02:43:00 PM
Scriabin seems to be mostly just an internet favorite. I've rarely seen his music programmed outside of piano competitions, and he's not played on the radio much. I think a lot of people who are only casual listeners of classical music don't even know who he is.

I've seen Poem of Ecstasy performed multiple times (especially by visiting Russian orchestras).  I've seen his massive Mysterium performed as well so he does get played quite a bit.  The first three symphonies though, don't seem to interest music directors as much as the later stuff.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: André on September 03, 2018, 07:43:19 AM
Quote from: Uhor on September 02, 2018, 03:47:53 PM
Mature Scriabin doesn't develop and doesn't have any "good tunes", what is left is some kind of motivic teasing in the midst of changing textures and harmonic fields ultimately building to a climax.

The thing is, either you dig that or not.

I like your description, as well as your concluding statement. I'm still trying to figure if I enjoy it or not.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Ken B on September 04, 2018, 12:30:37 PM
Quote from: Uhor on September 02, 2018, 03:47:53 PM
Mature Scriabin doesn't develop and doesn't have any "good tunes", what is left is some kind of motivic teasing in the midst of changing textures and harmonic fields ultimately building to a climax.

The thing is, either you dig that or not.

I like early scriabin. He was very underrated by the man who became later scriabin...
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 04, 2018, 04:44:37 PM
Quote from: Ken B on September 04, 2018, 12:30:37 PM
I like early scriabin. He was very underrated by the man who became later scriabin...


Sure, but the later works are where scriabin becomes Scriabin.....
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: The Six on September 05, 2018, 12:47:05 PM
Quote from: Ken B on September 04, 2018, 12:30:37 PM
I like early scriabin. He was very underrated by the man who became later scriabin...

Later Scriabin continued to perform the works of early Scriabin quite a bit.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on September 05, 2018, 01:33:59 PM
He's rated just fine.
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: ritter on September 05, 2018, 01:47:12 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on September 05, 2018, 01:33:59 PM
He's rated just fine.
Exactly...
Title: Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
Post by: relm1 on November 15, 2018, 04:25:57 PM
What are your thoughts of Mysterium?