GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 08, 2018, 05:06:38 PM

Title: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 08, 2018, 05:06:38 PM
I just read this and thought it was extremely interesting.

To me it just makes sense that the music of our time is the music that people, particularly young people, will find themselves engaging with the most.

Should there be more of a focus on New Music in the classroom?

https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/new-music-as-a-gateway-to-classical-music/

I have a similar story actually; when I was either my final or penultimate year of primary school (I forget which) there were a few weeks in the year where our music teacher did a unit on contemporary classical music styles. The first class in this unit began with a general overview of various styles and then the following classes we were split into groups to compose pieces of music together based on various styles we had learnt about. The piece of music that left the strongest impression on me was Penderecki's famous Threnody in amongst  The composition task I remember the best was one where we had to experiment with different methods of sound production on traditional acoustic instruments as well as 'found' instruments. I remember that our group had a lot of fun with a squeaky drum kit stool. I have no idea if these classes were the real beginning of what drew me to contemporary classical music, but I don't think I was ever again in a class so engaged with composition during my school years.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Mahlerian on May 08, 2018, 05:33:41 PM
Quote from: jessop on May 08, 2018, 05:06:38 PM
I just read this and thought it was extremely interesting.

To me it just makes sense that the music of our time is the music that people, particularly young people, will find themselves engaging with the most.

Should there be more of a focus on New Music in the classroom?

https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/new-music-as-a-gateway-to-classical-music/

I have a similar story actually; when I was either my final or penultimate year of primary school (I forget which) there were a few weeks in the year where our music teacher did a unit on contemporary classical music styles. The first class in this unit began with a general overview of various styles and then the following classes we were split into groups to compose pieces of music together based on various styles we had learnt about. The piece of music that left the strongest impression on me was Penderecki's famous Threnody in amongst  The composition task I remember the best was one where we had to experiment with different methods of sound production on traditional acoustic instruments as well as 'found' instruments. I remember that our group had a lot of fun with a squeaky drum kit stool. I have no idea if these classes were the real beginning of what drew me to contemporary classical music, but I don't think I was ever again in a class so engaged with composition during my school years.

I didn't really engage with contemporary classical music until college, in part because it had never been presented to me, it wasn't a part of my environment, and I didn't know much about its existence.

I think for many kids it could very well be the thing to draw them in, whether or not they enjoy the canonical classics (as I did).  Plus, the average listener to pop and rock doesn't hear music in terms of common practice tonality, so they would need to consciously learn the harmonic "rules" of classical music in order to really get much out of it in a way that children a few generations ago would not have.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Crudblud on May 08, 2018, 09:59:00 PM
I have long thought, with popular music becoming more and more sound oriented, particularly in the independent arena (take the increasingly popular noise pop and related genres for example), that visceral music like Xenakis would be far more appealing to those audiences than Mozart, even if snippets of Mozart are well woven into the fabric of western culture. Since popular music is much more about the instant sensation of sound (albeit to a beat) than it is any structural or thematic development, a music of sounds as sounds could well be more exciting for them.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: arpeggio on May 09, 2018, 01:17:47 AM
Over the past few years I have attended many performances of contemporary works that the audiences liked.

This season I attended concerts with the Chicago and Los Angeles Philharmonic that performed contemporary works that the audience were enthusiastic about.  I was actually at a performance of a work by Cage for Tenor (I can not recall which one) that received a standing ovation.

I think movie soundtracks may have a lot to do with it.  I had an acquaintance at work who was African-American who asked me if there were any classical African-American composers.  I loaned him some of my CD's that included works by Still and Dawson.  I snuck in a serial work by Olly Wilson.  The Wilson turned out to be his favorite because it reminded him of the soundtrack to Planet of the Apes.  So I introduce him to more atonal works and he became a big fan of Sessions and Schoenberg and Lazarof and many others.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: amw on May 09, 2018, 03:27:04 AM
This honestly seems like a no-brainer to me—of course music written by people who are alive today is going to appeal to a lot of listeners who are... also alive today?? It's written under the same social conditions and addresses the same concerns (usually). Particularly I think this applies to electronic/experimental stuff, because of how that ties into techniques like sampling that have become part of mainstream music styles (especially hip-hop & "alternative", but one can find it everywhere), as well as the fact that avant-garde "classical" music has been basically indistinguishable from avant-garde "popular" music, apart from the social background and academic credentials/lack thereof of the practitioners, at very least since AMM got started. And the other thing is obviously the increasingly close relationship of postminimalist music to various popular genres, especially art rock. This goes back to the days of the collaborations between David Bowie and Philip Glass, but the musical relationships now run deeper.

My experience has been that young people generally react more positively to new music than older music, and when I've rec'd things to people who don't know anything about classical music, they seem more interested in things like The Well-Tuned Piano or Presque Rien or even English Country-Tunes than in things like Beethoven and Brahms. Some of that might just be unfamiliarity.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: San Antone on May 09, 2018, 03:36:46 AM
I agree.  New music appeals to younger listeners without any other experience of listening to classical music - it is almost as if new music written within the last twenty years, or so, is not even the same genre as 18th, 19th century European classical music. 

But does it last?  To me most new music is like the cliche about Chinese food.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: relm1 on May 09, 2018, 06:15:39 AM
It is also important to note that currently, contemporary composers really embrace the audience and performers whereas in the past century, there were periods of ambivalence that left a bad taste in peoples mouth.  That just isn't the case these days and I frequently see sold out premiere concerts getting standing ovations.  What is also important is that the concert has some type of meaning or theme between the works.  For example, one concert that was very successful included three premieres along with classical works that inspired those composers.  So we got Firebird suite, maybe an overture, something else famous (I forget), and three premieres that had some connection with each of those works and the composer explained how it connected with them.  The audience loved it. 

The state of contemporary music is quite good.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Karl Henning on May 09, 2018, 06:44:16 AM
Quote from: San Antone on May 09, 2018, 03:36:46 AM
I agree.  New music appeals to younger listeners without any other experience of listening to classical music - it is almost as if new music written within the last twenty years, or so, is not even the same genre as 18th, 19th century European classical music. 

But does it last?  To me most new music is like the cliche about Chinese food.

And, there is a reason.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 09, 2018, 07:32:56 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on May 08, 2018, 09:59:00 PM
visceral music like Xenakis would be far more appealing to those audiences than Mozart, even if snippets of Mozart are well woven into the fabric of western culture. Since popular music is much more about the instant sensation of sound (albeit to a beat) than it is any structural or thematic development, a music of sounds as sounds could well be more exciting for them.

Quote from: amw on May 09, 2018, 03:27:04 AM
This honestly seems like a no-brainer to me—of course music written by people who are alive today is going to appeal to a lot of listeners who are... also alive today?? It's written under the same social conditions and addresses the same concerns (usually).

The two paragraphs above are mutually exclusive.

Be it as it may, I couldn't care less about music which adresses social concerns, be it 18th, 19th or 21st century.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Mahlerian on May 09, 2018, 09:56:51 AM
Quote from: San Antone on May 09, 2018, 03:36:46 AMBut does it last?  To me most new music is like the cliche about Chinese food.

As with all previous eras, the best work will last, the remainder will be forgotten.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 09, 2018, 11:22:55 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on May 09, 2018, 09:56:51 AM
As with all previous eras, the best work will last, the remainder will be forgotten.

Wrong. We live (and thank God for that!) in an era when even the most obscure stuff of any given period is recorded --- and it often turns out to be much better than the official musicological ideology would have us believe.

Life is too short to concentrate only on the best...  ;D
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Mahlerian on May 09, 2018, 11:41:18 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 09, 2018, 11:22:55 AMWrong. We live (and thank God for that!) in an era when even the most obscure stuff of any given period is recorded --- and it often turns out to be much better than the official musicological ideology would have us believe.

Nope, the vast majority of music written at any time still remains and will forever remain unplayed and unrecorded.

What ideology is this?
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 10, 2018, 01:50:29 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on May 09, 2018, 11:41:18 AM
the vast majority of music written at any time still remains and will forever remain unplayed and unrecorded.

How do you know that?
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 10, 2018, 01:59:19 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 10, 2018, 01:50:29 AM
How do you know that?
It's unfalsifiable.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Karl Henning on May 10, 2018, 05:01:46 AM
Musical necrophilia will always be with us  ;)
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Mahlerian on May 10, 2018, 07:52:39 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 10, 2018, 01:50:29 AM
How do you know that?

Outside of one or two dozen composers for each era prior to the 20th century, the majority of composers are seldom recorded or performed.  I think it's not unfair to estimate that at any given point along that timeline, there were hundreds of composers writing music.  Much of that music no longer exists; much exists but remains in a library somewhere and the few times anyone has glanced at it they didn't care enough to glance a second time.

Many of the figures you're talking about as obscure were well known at one point, at least locally or by a limited group.  Their works were published and performed.  The majority don't get that far.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: 71 dB on May 10, 2018, 10:01:32 AM
I have retrospectively understood that I must have suffered the worst music teachers ever in school. I learned nothing about music and hardly even understood there is something to learn. I still struggle to understand even the basics of music theory, but somehow I have been able to figure much about classical music and other music for that matter just listening to a lot an using my head. I envy those who enjoyed proper music education at young age.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: 71 dB on May 10, 2018, 10:07:27 AM
I found contemporary classical music a few years ago and it was a revelation. It wasn't all about dissonant chaos, but very interesting and surprisingly consonant and often beautiful music.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 10, 2018, 10:08:22 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on May 10, 2018, 07:52:39 AM
Outside of one or two dozen composers for each era prior to the 20th century, the majority of composers are seldom recorded or performed. 

Wrong. Dead wrong, actually.

Number of recorded Baroque composers in my library: 174.

Number of recorded Classical composers in my library: 80.

Number of recorded Romantic composers in my library: 167.

You know, there is much more good to excellent music than the dozen or two names canonized by the (mostly Austro-German oriented) canon.

QuoteI think it's not unfair to estimate that at any given point along that timeline, there were hundreds of composers writing music.  Much of that music no longer exists; much exists but remains in a library somewhere and the few times anyone has glanced at it they didn't care enough to glance a second time.

As jessop remarked, this is an unfalsifiable proposition and please excuse me if I'm not going to take your word for it.

Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Baron Scarpia on May 10, 2018, 10:12:03 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 10, 2018, 10:08:22 AM
Wrong. Dead wrong, actually.

Number of recorded Baroque composers in my library: 174.

Number of recorded Classical composers in my library: 80.

Number of recorded Romantic composers in my library: 167.

You know, there is much more good to excellent music than the dozen or two names canonized by the (mostly Austro-German oriented) canon.

He said seldom or never, not never.  Of the 174 Baroque composers in your library, I think it is a fair guess that about 168 are seldom recorded.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Mahlerian on May 10, 2018, 10:19:51 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 10, 2018, 10:08:22 AM
Wrong. Dead wrong, actually.

Number of recorded Baroque composers in my library: 174.

Number of recorded Classical composers in my library: 80.

Number of recorded Romantic composers in my library: 167.

You know, there is much more good to excellent music than the dozen or two names canonized by the (mostly Austro-German oriented) canon.

I'm still wondering about that ideology thing.  What official ideology are you talking about?

Quote from: Florestan on May 10, 2018, 10:08:22 AMAs jessop remarked, this is an unfalsifiable proposition and please excuse me if I'm not going to take your word for it.

It's a matter of probability.  Which do you think is more likely, that people all over Europe stood in such awe of the relatively few (a hundred or two dozen, whichever) musicians who wrote music that they didn't bother to do it themselves, or that there were forgotten (and, for the most part, forgettable) figures who were putting out reams of music of their own just about everywhere?  From my perspective, the former beggars belief.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: amw on May 10, 2018, 10:27:48 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 10, 2018, 10:08:22 AM
Number of recorded Classical composers in my library: 80.

[...]

As jessop remarked, this is an unfalsifiable proposition and please excuse me if I'm not going to take your word for it.
Not that unfalsifiable. Here is a sampling of hundreds of, mostly forgotten, composers from the Classical era.

http://imslp.org/index.php?title=Category:People_from_the_Classical_era&intersect=Composers
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 10, 2018, 11:02:25 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 09, 2018, 07:32:56 AM

Be it as it may, I couldn't care less about music which adresses social concerns, be it 18th, 19th or 21st century.

Yeah, one of the attractions of classical music is that it allows me to get away from social concerns. And that goes for contemporary music, too.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Karl Henning on May 10, 2018, 11:07:09 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 10, 2018, 11:02:25 AM
Yeah, one of the attractions of classical music is that it allows me to get away from social concerns. And that goes for contemporary music, too.

Hear, hear.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Baron Scarpia on May 10, 2018, 11:10:52 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 10, 2018, 11:07:09 AM
Hear, hear.

I thought the expression was "hear here." :)

Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Crudblud on May 10, 2018, 12:02:58 PM
Henning hears here the heavenly hum of humble horns harking, barking, and, arcing through the air, singing sweet: "no social issue do we treat".
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: aleazk on May 10, 2018, 12:22:30 PM
I think the premise is plausible, but the effect will be limited since the level of complexity tends to be higher in the classical side. There will ever be the need of some "hardwork" (maybe not the best word for it) from the part of the newcomer listener. I think the most important thing is to propose new ideas on how to make that hardwork to flow in the most amicable way.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 10, 2018, 06:04:00 PM
Quote from: amw on May 10, 2018, 10:27:48 AM
Not that unfalsifiable. Here is a sampling of hundreds of, mostly forgotten, composers from the Classical era.

http://imslp.org/index.php?title=Category:People_from_the_Classical_era&intersect=Composers
Actually I think this isn't even a comprehensive list of composers and works anyway.

My reasoning sort of uses Occam's razor considering evidence I see in the world today.

Considering the question: are the vast majority of composers from past eras published and performed? it just requires fewer assumptions to come to the conclusion that they are not.

Today, there are heaps of community orchestras, amateur musicians and amateur composers who write music for them, or compose for a hobby. The vast majority of these composers I have come across do not really get published and their works are performed in a more casual setting with other friends and colleagues for their friends and colleagues. I have crossed paths with at least fifty people in this position.

People who have at least bit of musical training and education behind them are likely to write music from time to time anyway. More often than not, these pieces are never published or even performed. Perhaps if they decide to take the initiative, they might play it themselves in front of an audience of friends and family.

These are just things I observe about music-making in a variety of communities I have come into contact with today. It's just easy to assume that this has always been the case in the past as well as there is no evidence to suggest that published composers are the majority composers across all of history. Yes, I would argue that it is unfalsifiable position to take because by the nature of the question there can't be published evidence to back it up, but my conclusion is certainly not an absurd one! In fact, the assumption that most composers were published, performed and recorded to this day requires a greater number of assumptions and therefore needs much stronger evidence to back it up.

Whilst I agree with Florestan about the fetishisation of Austro-Germanic repertoire, I find the idea that his obstinate refusal to accept the conclusion to which Mahlerian and I have come to be rather absurd (and rather amusing).
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 10, 2018, 06:30:05 PM
Quote from: Florestan on May 10, 2018, 10:08:22 AM
Number of recorded Baroque composers in my library: 174.

Number of recorded Classical composers in my library: 80.

Number of recorded Romantic composers in my library: 167.

Only that few? Well, I guess it only seems small considering how much you are interested in the lesser known gems just outside the Austro-German dominated canon......... ;D
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: amw on May 10, 2018, 08:00:39 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 10, 2018, 11:02:25 AM
Yeah, one of the attractions of classical music is that it allows me to get away from social concerns. And that goes for contemporary music, too.
All music addresses the social concerns of the age in which it was written, because human beings live in a society and the purpose of art is social. Even if the purpose of a work of contemporary music is to serve as high-class entertainment that sets aside a space separate from the everyday, it does so in response to a particular everyday: Wagnerian opera exists in direct antithesis to Germany of the 1850s and 60s, Brahms's string quartets are a private and "universal" genre set against the rise of the middle class and ultranationalism in Vienna, Bach's later and more intellectually abstruse works (AoF etc) are a reaction against the secularisation of society and simplification of popular music genres, etc. If you want music that allows you to get away from social concerns, what you're looking for is music that rejects your particular social concerns, which are those of the present day: so obviously, contemporary music that has this kind of antithetical relationship to present-day social issues would be better suited than music of the past in that regard.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: amw on May 10, 2018, 08:03:11 PM
Quote from: jessop on May 10, 2018, 06:04:00 PM
Actually I think this isn't even a comprehensive list of composers and works anyway.
For sure. To make it onto that list, a composer had to be published, or have their manuscripts survive to the present day. Amateur composers & musicians and those who did not have access to publishing companies wouldn't be on it, and for certain those who didn't write down their music wouldn't be on it.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Karl Henning on May 11, 2018, 05:01:50 AM
In all events, of that past epoch, we draw a distinction between all the music which was created and all the music which has survived in some form to the present.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 11, 2018, 07:07:19 AM
Quote from: amw on May 10, 2018, 08:00:39 PM
All music addresses the social concerns of the age in which it was written, because human beings live in a society and the purpose of art is social.

This is one of those statements that is a) self-evidently true, and b) irrelevant, due to its totalizing and reductionist nature.

It's like saying "all music is rooted in biology, because humans are biological and physical beings." True, but I don't listen to music to focus on the condition of the singer's lungs or the exact mechanism of the finger motions of the pianist.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Crudblud on May 11, 2018, 07:33:12 AM
Music addresses musical concerns, anything else is beyond it.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: San Antone on May 11, 2018, 08:04:49 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on May 11, 2018, 07:33:12 AM
Music addresses musical concerns, anything else is beyond it.

I agree 100% with you.  To use music in the service of a social, political, or any message-based issue, I think, pollutes what possibilities there are within it.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: amw on May 11, 2018, 08:26:40 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on May 11, 2018, 07:33:12 AM
Music addresses musical concerns, anything else is beyond it.
I don't think there is really a distinction that can be made between "musical concerns" and "social concerns", at least in the way music relates to its audiences and performers.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: San Antone on May 11, 2018, 09:15:36 AM
Quote from: amw on May 11, 2018, 08:26:40 AM
I don't think there is really a distinction that can be made between "musical concerns" and "social concerns", at least in the way music relates to its audiences and performers.

Each audience member will react to a musical work in their own way and there will be a myriad of unpredictable reactions.  What is in the mind of the composer and what he hopes to accomplish with his piece is something else, and much more important and meaningful.  If a composer has an idea to address social concerns with his music, that is what I thought we were discussing.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Crudblud on May 11, 2018, 10:13:48 AM
Quote from: amw on May 11, 2018, 08:26:40 AM
I don't think there is really a distinction that can be made between "musical concerns" and "social concerns", at least in the way music relates to its audiences and performers.
I was writing a pointed response but I stopped once I realised that we may well be talking past each other. Instead I would like to ask you to elaborate on this idea, because I don't think I really understand what you're saying.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: arpeggio on May 11, 2018, 12:07:14 PM
^^^
This thread started to lose me about post #30  ???
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: CRCulver on May 13, 2018, 02:34:04 PM
Quote from: Crudblud on May 08, 2018, 09:59:00 PM
I have long thought, with popular music becoming more and more sound oriented, particularly in the independent arena (take the increasingly popular noise pop and related genres for example), that visceral music like Xenakis would be far more appealing to those audiences than Mozart, even if snippets of Mozart are well woven into the fabric of western culture.

That is why I find it weird when some well-known posters with an idée fixe on classical music fora go on and on about how serial music, even the old Second Viennese School repertoire, could not possibly appeal to any listeners because it does not follow the rules of tonal development that spring inexorably from human biology or whatever. Meanwhile, they seem to be completely oblivious that crowds of kids these days – and for the last three decades – are going to festivals where Merzbow or other Japanese noise musicians play. If anything, Schoenberg with his typical Viennese rhythms and scoring would probably sound too traditional to them!
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 13, 2018, 03:01:50 PM
Quote from: CRCulver on May 13, 2018, 02:34:04 PM
That is why I find it weird when some well-known posters with an idée fixe on classical music fora go on and on about how serial music, even the old Second Viennese School repertoire, could not possibly appeal to any listeners because it does not follow the rules of tonal development that spring inexorably from human biology or whatever. Meanwhile, they seem to be completely oblivious that crowds of kids these days – and for the last three decades – are going to festivals where Merzbow or other Japanese noise musicians play. If anything, Schoenberg with his typical Viennese rhythms and scoring would probably sound too traditional to them!

HAHAHA Oh this IS absolutely spot on.

The incessant preaching that tonal music follows some kind of 'universal truth' or it is 'the natural order' is a claim that flies in the face of the reality of the fact that  'the rules* of tonal development' have nothing to do with 'biology' or 'physics'—or any other science—because that musical language is not universal in the same way that science is. The language music is irrational and subject to cultural preferences—the things that give different musical styles and different kind of appeal to different audiences.











*not the rules, never were the rules and never will be the rules!!!!
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Ken B on May 13, 2018, 05:51:02 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 10, 2018, 10:07:27 AM
I found contemporary classical music a few years ago and it was a revelation. It wasn't all about dissonant chaos, but very interesting and surprisingly consonant and often beautiful music.

That's good timing. I discovered contemporary classical in the 70s and it sucked. The serial era. You hit it post-serialism. There's lots of great stuff, now that the dead hand of Webern has been cast off.

I was recently at the Canadian premier of a two trombone Concerto by a Dutch composer, Johan de Meij, who conducted, and it was the big hit of the concert.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 13, 2018, 06:46:46 PM
Quote from: Ken B on May 13, 2018, 05:51:02 PM
That's good timing. I discovered contemporary classical in the 70s and it sucked. The serial era. You hit it post-serialism. There's lots of great stuff, now that the dead hand of Webern has been cast off.

I was recently at the Canadian premier of a two trombone Concerto by a Dutch composer, Johan de Meij, who conducted, and it was the big hit of the concert.


I don't know what the serial era is or why it is the 1970s....can you explain?
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Ken B on May 13, 2018, 07:25:01 PM
Quote from: jessop on May 13, 2018, 06:46:46 PM
I don't know what the serial era is or why it is the 1970s....can you explain?
That was tail end of the era where serialism dominated academia and funding.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 13, 2018, 08:57:39 PM
Quote from: Ken B on May 13, 2018, 07:25:01 PM
That was tail end of the era where serialism dominated academia and funding.
Ah I see, well I don't quite understand the importance of one compositional tool, but I would rather have seen it be taught as a necessary tool to understand (because of its historical significance) than something to be shunned by university courses.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Crudblud on May 13, 2018, 11:14:15 PM
Quote from: CRCulver on May 13, 2018, 02:34:04 PM
That is why I find it weird when some well-known posters with an idée fixe on classical music fora go on and on about how serial music, even the old Second Viennese School repertoire, could not possibly appeal to any listeners because it does not follow the rules of tonal development that spring inexorably from human biology or whatever. Meanwhile, they seem to be completely oblivious that crowds of kids these days – and for the last three decades – are going to festivals where Merzbow or other Japanese noise musicians play. If anything, Schoenberg with his typical Viennese rhythms and scoring would probably sound too traditional to them!
Absolutely correct. Noise has become a very important part of the aesthetics of popular music, even manufactured hits over the past decade or more have displayed a greater interest in "non-musical" sound as an integral element, not just as ornamentation. I think not just Merzbow et al. but John Cage has been important in bringing about this change. Sure, you ask what they're listening to, it will likely be the former rather than the latter, but the philosophy of Cage seems to pervade the entire phenomenon, even if I dare say he might have considered Merzbow, as he did Glenn Branca, musically oppressive.

Quote from: jessop on May 13, 2018, 08:57:39 PM
Ah I see, well I don't quite understand the importance of one compositional tool, but I would rather have seen it be taught as a necessary tool to understand (because of its historical significance) than something to be shunned by university courses.
Serial organisation, like any technique, is what you make of it. I like to use it for material generation and mix the results with free writing, but it depends on the piece, sometimes it is appropriate, other times not. I think the advances into totally prescriptive form made by the Darmstadt composers and Babbitt were a necessary extreme, and we wouldn't enjoy the same kind of compositional freedom we do today had there not been such an overwhelming dogma to oppose.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 02:42:14 AM
Quote from: jessop on May 13, 2018, 03:01:50 PM
The incessant preaching that tonal music follows some kind of 'universal truth' or it is 'the natural order' 

Where would that incessant preaching be, I wonder? I haven't seen or heard it, not here at GMG*, not at the classical radio station I regularly listen to --- and I'd venture to say it's virtually absent from conservatories and music schools. Unless you are equating personal, more or less informed but certainly inconsequential, opinions expressed here and there over the internet with "incessant preaching", you're flogging a dead horse.

(* the one GMG member --- a lady --- who did think along these lines hasn't been active since the Stone Age; and anyway she had been met with strong rebuttals)

Quote from: Crudblud on May 13, 2018, 11:14:15 PM
I think the advances into totally prescriptive form made by the Darmstadt composers and Babbitt were a necessary extreme, and we wouldn't enjoy the same kind of compositional freedom we do today had there not been such an overwhelming dogma to oppose.

Sure, just as the the Soviet-style socialism was a necessary extreme, and we Eastern Europeans wouldn't enjoy the same kind of political freedom we do today had there not been for such an overwhelming dogma to oppose. We should be thankful for Stalin, otherwise we wouldn't have had Solzhenitsyn.













Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Crudblud on May 14, 2018, 04:36:40 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 02:42:14 AM
Sure, just as the the Soviet-style socialism was a necessary extreme, and we Eastern Europeans wouldn't enjoy the same kind of political freedom we do today had there not been for such an overwhelming dogma to oppose. We should be thankful for Stalin, otherwise we wouldn't have had Solzhenitsyn.
Sarcasm or not, that is an absurd comparison to make.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Karl Henning on May 14, 2018, 04:47:35 AM
Quote from: Ken B on May 13, 2018, 07:25:01 PM
That was tail end of the era where serialism dominated academia and funding.

No denying that a certain volume of musical bilge emerged from this . . . swamp.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 04:51:34 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on May 14, 2018, 04:36:40 AM
Sarcasm or not, that is an absurd comparison to make.

Absurd or not, I make no difference between intellectual and political oppression. Whoever thinks and proclaims that only his way of thinking and understanding the world is valid, and that all others who don't share / oppose it are just relics of the past, destined to be mercilessly crushed under the glorious march of the progressive History, and acts accordingly --- is a tyrant.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 14, 2018, 04:56:40 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 02:42:14 AM
Where would that incessant preaching be, I wonder? I haven't seen or heard it, not here at GMG*, not at the classical radio station I regularly listen to --- and I'd venture to say it's virtually absent from conservatories and music schools. Unless you are equating personal, more or less informed but certainly inconsequential, opinions expressed here and there over the internet with "incessant preaching", you're flogging a dead horse.

(* the one GMG member --- a lady --- who did think along these lines hasn't been active since the Stone Age; and anyway she had been met with strong rebuttals)

Well, David del Tredici and George Rochberg in particular as they have both made some very self-righteous claims about their preference for a tonal language (views which have most certainly made their way into conservatories and music schools, FYI, but I never mentioned anything about that in the post of mine you are quoting..........). I do wonder somehow, why even Boulez would have bothered to rebut claims about any musical language, style or aesthetic having anything to do with a 'natural order' when he wrote Aesthetics and the Fetishists if it were never a common misconception about music in the first place.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 04:57:33 AM
Quote from: jessop on May 14, 2018, 04:56:40 AM
David del Tredici and George Rochberg

Who?
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 04:59:19 AM
Quote from: jessop on May 14, 2018, 04:56:40 AM
Well, David del Tredici and George Rochberg in particular as they have both made some very self-righteous claims about their preference for a tonal language (views which have most certainly made their way into conservatories and music schools, FYI, but I never mentioned anything about that in the post of mine you are quoting..........)

Have you ever been taught at a conservatory /  music school that atonalism is just unnatural noise? Yes or no.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 14, 2018, 05:01:58 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 04:51:34 AM
Absurd or not, I make no difference between intellectual and political oppression. Whoever thinks and proclaims that only his way of thinking and understanding the world is valid, and that all others who don't share / oppose it are just relics of the past, destined to be mercilessly crushed under the glorious march of the progressive History, and acts accordingly --- is a tyrant.
If you make no difference between the two really makes you look like you are making what you call 'intellectual oppression' a much bigger, more serious issue than what the Darmstadt school actually was and what it turned out to be, or you unjustifiably making light on some of biggest horrors that humanity has inflicted upon itself. The latter would be even worse than writing poetry after Auschwitz. ;D
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 14, 2018, 05:03:38 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 04:59:19 AM
Have you ever been taught at a conservatory /  music school that atonalism is just unnatural noise? Yes or no.

I haven't (and partly because it isn't something that I would let anyone try to teach me), but I have met people who teach in institutions like that who are willing to push that exact agenda (and less extreme variations) onto their students.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 05:05:07 AM
Quote from: jessop on May 14, 2018, 05:01:58 AM
If you make no difference between the two really makes you look like you are making what you call 'intellectual oppression' a much bigger, more serious issue than what the Darmstadt school actually was and what it turned out to be, or you unjustifiably making light on some of biggest horrors that humanity has inflicted upon itself. The latter would be even worse than writing poetry after Auschwitz. ;D

Did I write Darmstadt School and Auschwitz in my post? No. It's you who came up with them in the context --- and it speaks volumes in itself that you did.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 05:05:34 AM
Quote from: jessop on May 14, 2018, 05:03:38 AM
I haven't

I rest my case.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Karl Henning on May 14, 2018, 05:06:36 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 04:59:19 AM
Have you ever been taught at a conservatory /  music school that atonalism is just unnatural noise? Yes or no.

Experience in such environments taught me that there are both students and music teachers who believe so, and who express it to some degree.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 14, 2018, 05:11:23 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 14, 2018, 05:06:36 AM
Experience in such environments taught me that there are both students and music teachers who believe so, and who express it to some degree.

Which shows that school is just a microcosm of the real world, not more or less than that.

8)
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: CRCulver on May 14, 2018, 05:13:47 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 02:42:14 AM
Where would that incessant preaching be, I wonder? I haven't seen or heard it, not here at GMG*

In fact, one of the reasons I continue to participate on GMG is because you rarely encounter such posts. But just look at John Borstlap's activity on Slipped Disc: he will use almost any news post as an excuse to argue against the music he dislikes, and he will post far more than any other single poster. On Usenet there was Tom Deacon. I only briefly dipped my toes into Talk Classical a few years ago, but to continually rehash the claim that certain avant-garde strands of music are utterly unnatural seemed a favourite hobby horse of some posters.

Over at Future Symphony you can find a large number of editorials on the same theme. This one (http://www.futuresymphony.org/recovering-the-sacred-in-music/) claims that "atonal music" is a contraction in terms. Again, how can one seriously claim this when Merzbow has his following of listeners, and they see Merzbow as part of their music collection?

Similarly, Bortslap has tried to create two separate arts, "music" and "sonic art", and he relegates to the latter all streams of modernism that he doesn't like, but I just don't think that many young music listeners today recognize any such dichotomy; it's all "music" for them, but of course everyone recognizes that not all that music they like will appeal to everyone else.

So, critics of avant-garde classical music keep making their cases inside a bubble limited solely to classical music. They have missed out that atonality or noise now exists in genres outside of classical music.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 05:14:44 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 14, 2018, 05:06:36 AM
Experience in such environments taught me that there are both students and music teachers who believe so, and who express it to some degree.

Well, students and music teachers are --- or at least they should be --- free to think / teach whatever they want, but is it the officially endorsed, actively taught position of those environments?



Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 14, 2018, 05:15:19 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 05:05:07 AM
Did I write Darmstadt School and Auschwitz in my post? No. It's you who came up with them in the context --- and it speaks volumes in itself that you did.

It was in the context of your response to Crudblud, who was talking about the Darmstadt School. 'No poetry after Auschwitz' is a relevant Adorno reference that I make in jest. It speaks volumes that you choose to ignore chunks of my own comments and re-contextualise other people's arguments to suit your own purpose—a purpose which I can't understand to be anything besides simply contradicting anything that you don't realise exists outside of the world of music in which you prefer to immerse yourself.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 05:16:45 AM
Quote from: CRCulver on May 14, 2018, 05:13:47 AM
John Borstlap

Tom Deacon

Who the hell are they? And who the hell gives a darn fig about what they say?
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Crudblud on May 14, 2018, 05:17:23 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 04:51:34 AM
Absurd or not, I make no difference between intellectual and political oppression. Whoever thinks and proclaims that only his way of thinking and understanding the world is valid, and that all others who don't share / oppose it are just relics of the past, destined to be mercilessly crushed under the glorious march of the progressive History, and acts accordingly --- is a tyrant.
Nor between the death and suffering of millions and the making of music you don't like, apparently. Nothing Boulez (to whom I assume you refer when you say "tyrant") said, and he said many things, prevented people from composing, performing, or studying diatonic music, not in the 20th century and certainly not now.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 14, 2018, 05:17:39 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 04:57:33 AM
Who?
American neo-romantic composers whose music hasn't really taken off outside their own country. The latter has written some wonderful string quartets which I quite enjoy. The former has a truly astonishing series of works based on Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 05:20:00 AM
Quote from: jessop on May 14, 2018, 05:15:19 AM
It was in the context of your response to Crudblud, who was talking about the Darmstadt School. 'No poetry after Auschwitz' is a relevant Adorno reference that I make in jest. It speaks volumes that you choose to ignore chunks of my own comments and re-contextualise other people's arguments to suit your own purpose—a purpose which I can't understand to be anything besides simply contradicting anything that you don't realise exists outside of the world of music in which you prefer to immerse yourself.

This coming from the guy who seriously claimed that Chopin is in the same league as Mertz or Regondi... oh, the irony! Karl, risum teneatis?  ;D

Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 14, 2018, 05:20:33 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 14, 2018, 05:06:36 AM
Experience in such environments taught me that there are both students and music teachers who believe so, and who express it to some degree.

My experience also—everyone's experience for those who have experienced music education at a tertiary (and sometimes even secondary) level. However, if a student is convinced by misinformation I would argue that it is the duty of the teacher to allow the student to begin to critically evaluate any and all views and help them to continue questioning with an ever opening mind.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 14, 2018, 05:26:58 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 05:20:00 AM
This coming from the guy who seriously claimed that Chopin is the same as Mertz or Regondi... oh, the irony!

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. I do understand that the efforts of guitar viruosi such as Mertz, Legnani, Giuliani, Sor and Coste (to be honest, I know less of Regondi) in advancing their instrument can be easily compared to the role piano virtuosi/composers had in advancing their instrument at the same time of history. All those composers had their own influences in how solo guitar and piano music changed over the course of the 19th century, some of them were certainly innovative in some areas and less in other areas (such as Chopin taking many of his 'genres' from other composers such as Szymanowska and Field and perfected them in his own way). This is a different topic altogether though, but I am happy to discuss it with you in another thread. I do understand you have a passion for the 19th century in general and I suspect we would get along much better when talking about that instead of derailing this thread.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Karl Henning on May 14, 2018, 05:27:22 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 14, 2018, 05:11:23 AM
Which shows that school is just a microcosm of the real world, not more or less than that.

8)

Forsooth.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 05:37:34 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on May 14, 2018, 05:17:23 AM
Nor between the death and suffering of millions and the making of music you don't like, apparently. Nothing Boulez (to whom I assume you refer when you say "tyrant") said, and he said many things, prevented people from composing, performing, or studying diatonic music, not in the 20th century and certainly not now.

The only difference between Boulez and Stalin is that the latter had the power to practice what he preached. Had Boulez been active during, and politicaly aligned to, the Zhadnovschina I have no doubts he'd have been at least as severe and uncompromisingly as Zhdanov was. All fanatics are alike.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 05:47:01 AM
Quote from: jessop on May 14, 2018, 05:26:58 AM
to be honest, I know less of Regondi

And yet you wrote this:

Quote from: jessop on March 17, 2018, 08:22:28 PM
Well, honestly I think Chopin is just as good and just as important as composers like Mertz, Regondi and other composers

So, for you, one of the most famous, celebrated, loved, influential, discussed and analyzed composers in the whole history of European music is just as good and important as an obscure one about whom you admittedly know "less" --- and then you want me to take your pronouncements about music seriously?


Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 14, 2018, 06:36:24 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 05:47:01 AM
And yet you wrote this:

So, for you, one of the most famous, celebrated, loved, influential, discussed and analyzed composers in the whole history of European music is just as good and important as an obscure one about whom you admittedly know "less" --- and then you want me to take your pronouncements about music seriously?
Why not? Just because I don't know as many works by Regondi as I do by Mertz shouldn't invalidate an opinion I hold about a topic that isn't based around the quantity of works I know from each composer.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Karl Henning on May 14, 2018, 06:38:23 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 05:37:34 AM
The only difference between Boulez and Stalin is that the latter had the power to practice what he preached.

There may be more differences  0:)
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 14, 2018, 06:46:08 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 05:37:34 AM
The only difference between Boulez and Stalin is that the latter had the power to practice what he preached. Had Boulez been active during, and politicaly aligned to, the Zhadnovschina I have no doubts he'd have been at least as severe and uncompromisingly as Zhdanov was. All fanatics are alike.
Famous psychological experiments that examine this kind of power do show that anyone would be that severe and uncompromising when their position and what people expect of them encourages it. All humans are alike.

Boulez wasn't really much of a person to condone that level of censorship, although he did take many opportunities to speak out about what he believed in. The Damrstadt school when he was there with Nono, Stockhausen and others was particularly good at experimenting with music for its own sake of experimentation, expanding the understanding of recent compositional ideas and seeing how far they can go. The most important and most wonderful part of it was when everyone started disagreeing with one another; there was a blossoming of individuality when they all diverged to pursue the kind of music they realised they most wanted to write after their experience at Damrstadt. Boulez even admitted that looking back at Damrstadt he was able to work out exactly what he found limiting, frustrating and what things helped him find his own musical voice that one hears in his later works. He was hopeful that this would be the same for any student who participated in the summer courses. The whole point of experimentation was to find out what works and what doesn't, what they like and what they don't, what possibilities can composers find to take their music/their craft to the next level. As early as the 1960s Boulez knew that he was 'old' and no longer the 'avant-garde' as younger composers experimenting in their own way will always continue to find things that work for them and things they're interested in.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 06:46:57 AM
Quote from: jessop on May 14, 2018, 06:36:24 AM
Why not?

Because the topic was Chopin. How many works by Regondi and Mertz you know is completely irrelevant.

You seem to think that music began the year before you were born, yet you are as wrong as it gets.


Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Crudblud on May 14, 2018, 06:48:51 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 05:37:34 AM
The only difference between Boulez and Stalin is that the latter had the power to practice what he preached. Had Boulez been active during, and politicaly aligned to, the Zhadnovschina I have no doubts he'd have been at least as severe and uncompromisingly as Zhdanov was. All fanatics are alike.
Such sensationalism may be amusing but it does not make for a convincing argument. While the young Boulez was undoubtedly a firebrand, particularly against Schoenberg's late works in which he returned to more traditional forms, the mature Boulez was devoted to nothing but music itself, and he spent his life in service to it through conducting (including some traditional repertoire), composing, and teaching. Anything like the Zhdanov doctrine would have been anathema to him; but you are right insofar as anyone politically aligned to it would have had to have been fervent, mostly out of fear.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 14, 2018, 07:00:15 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 06:46:57 AM
Because the topic was Chopin. How many works by Regondi and Mertz you know is completely irrelevant.

You seem to think that music began the year before you were born, yet you are as wrong as it gets.
Oh, I see, I don't think I made it clear. What I meant was: the number of works I know by any particular composer is irrelevant to the point I wanted to make about comparing the guitar virtuosi and piano virtuosi in how they influenced instrument makers, technique and repertoire. Neither piano nor guitar is more important than the other, and therefore the developments and people associated with them in the 19th century are of course all interesting and worthy of discussion.

What do you mean about music starting the year before I was born?
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 07:03:48 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 14, 2018, 06:38:23 AM
There may be more differences  0:)

Feel free to elaborate on them, my friend.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 07:12:22 AM
Quote from: jessop on May 14, 2018, 07:00:15 AM
Neither piano nor guitar is more important than the other

Wrong! Dead wrong, actually! Piano music is much more important, and much more influential than, guitar music! You can twist your head as much as you want, this is a fact!

Quote
What do you mean about music starting the year before I was born?

I mean that you seem to think that music written after you were born is more interesting and beautiful than music written before you were born -- and this is certainly not true as far as I am concerned.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: amw on May 14, 2018, 07:19:34 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 04:59:19 AM
Have you ever been taught at a conservatory /  music school that atonalism is just unnatural noise? Yes or no.
I've had music professors say this about "atonal music", electronic music, minimalism, and pop music. (A different professor in each case.) The argument against atonal music was that human beings are functionally incapable of understanding it because something about the harmonic series and whatever. This particular professor composed music in a cloying neo-romantic style reminiscent of Wagner or early Schoenberg and about as far from the pure harmonic series as one can get, but, whatevs, I don't judge.

Anyways it has always been obvious to me that any categorical statement about the historical validity of a particular style is just a dressed up version of "I don't like it" and one should proceed accordingly, so I never took those statements as being anything other than opinions.

(also, Stalin was actually good)

Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 05:37:34 AM
The only difference between Boulez and Stalin is that the latter had the power to practice what he preached. Had Boulez been active during, and politicaly aligned to, the Zhadnovschina I have no doubts he'd have been at least as severe and uncompromisingly as Zhdanov was. All fanatics are alike.
I'm still waiting to find out which composers, exactly, Boulez destroyed the careers of/hounded from public life/banned from writing music/whatever other charges y'all are laying against him
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 14, 2018, 07:21:57 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 07:12:22 AM
Wrong! Dead wrong, actually! Piano music is much more important, and much more influential than, guitar music! You can twist your head as much as you want, this is a fact!

I mean that you seem to think that music written after you were born is more interesting and beautiful than music written before you were born -- and this is certainly not true as far as I am concerned.

I think guitar and piano in all their history, all their versions etc. have shown to be extremely versatile and important instruments in their own right and in their own way. I've never thought before that someone could actually proclaim one to be more important than the other, so this is a first for me! Congratulations. :)

Most of the music I love most are pieces from before I was born....why are you deciding what music I like or find beautiful simply to proclaim that what you decide of me isn't true?
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: Florestan on May 14, 2018, 07:27:52 AM
Quote from: amw on May 14, 2018, 07:19:34 AM
Stalin was actually good

If you really think Stalin was actually good, then there can be no common ground between the two of us. Please add me to your "!ignore" list, just as I did with you.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: San Antone on May 14, 2018, 07:27:59 AM
Quote from: jessop on May 14, 2018, 05:03:38 AM
I haven't (and partly because it isn't something that I would let anyone try to teach me), but I have met people who teach in institutions like that who are willing to push that exact agenda (and less extreme variations) onto their students.

When I was in music school (this was the early 1970s) my composition teacher told me that if I wrote in anything like a tonal style (I had mentioned that Poulenc was one of my favorite composers) he would flunk me.  Back then, atonalism ruled.

I ignored him and got a 'B'  :(
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: amw on May 14, 2018, 07:36:55 AM
Stalin was obviously a repressive dictator who oversaw a massive police state, like every other Russian leader before or after him. But he did have a pretty good mustache.
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 14, 2018, 07:41:05 AM
Quote from: San Antone on May 14, 2018, 07:27:59 AM
When I was in music school (this was the early 1970s) my composition teacher told me that if I wrote in anything like a tonal style (I had mentioned that Poulenc was one of my favorite composers) he would flunk me.  Back then, atonalism ruled.

I ignored him and got a 'B'  :(

So he didn't flunk you? :laugh:
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 14, 2018, 07:42:08 AM
Quote from: amw on May 14, 2018, 07:36:55 AM
Stalin was obviously a repressive dictator who oversaw a massive police state, like every other Russian leader before or after him. But he did have a pretty good mustache.

It seems worrying that Florestan even needs to be reminded of this.........

(Does Florestan even pay attention to amw's posts in general? If he did then surely it would be rather obvious that she doesn't have much good to say about his kind of regime)
Title: Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 14, 2018, 07:53:21 AM
Sheesh, what a thread. If Florestan wants to continue his tangent, he can PM me or start a different thread to address his concerns.