I am wondering about two things, one practical, the other more theoretical.
1. How often should you clean your records?
2. Is LP wear & tear (assuming a good clean record) something of a myth?
Re 1), most people seem to be saying that once you have cleaned a record thoroughly, you shouldn't have to do so ever again. One clean on a respectable cleaner and it's good to go, as long as you brush it before/after playing and store it properly. Your experiences please.
Re 2), I am reading from a lot of collectors that if you treat your records properly, they will barely wear out, no matter how many times you play them (again, assuming proper treatment). I have to say that I'm quite stunned at how good 50+ year old LPs can sound if they're kept in good shape. Your experiences please.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 06, 2018, 08:12:15 AM
I am wondering about two things, one practical, the other more theoretical.
1. How often should you clean your records?
2. Is LP wear & tear (assuming a good clean record) something of a myth?
Re 1), most people seem to be saying that once you have cleaned a record thoroughly, you shouldn't have to do so ever again. One clean on a respectable cleaner and it's good to go, as long as you brush it before/after playing and store it properly. Your experiences please.
Re 2), I am reading from a lot of collectors that if you treat your records properly, they will barely wear out, no matter how many times you play them (again, assuming proper treatment). I have to say that I'm quite stunned at how good 50+ year old LPs can sound if they're kept in good shape. Your experiences please.
I´m less focused on sound than many people here, but I rarely clean my LPs. If there´s an accumulation of dust, I do it, swiping the dust off with my fingers and/or a piece of cloth. I do have special chemicals designed for it, which I use in particular if selling an item on eBay.
But I don´t play, buy or keep LPs with any obvious, annoying damages. I´d consider one scratch lasting say 40 secs to be in that category. If I keep such LPs, it´s only because of a rare cover design, it´s not to listen to them.
I´ve solely bought second-hand LPs cheaply for decades and am very rarely diappointed, having checked their surfaces before buying. The main fault that is difficult to discover and will make them practically unlistenable is that of an LP being wrongly centered.
If you have enough of LPs, they don´t really get worn. My absolute favourites I´ve tried to get CD versions of too, or buy a second one as well.
I remember the claim that playing an LP a few times will "erase" all of the high frequency. I never noticed that effect. It was perhaps a problem in the early days when tracking force was relatively high and the stylus was crudely shaped. I got some second hand LPs from the 50's which were unlistenable and I suspect were damaged by extremely crude players. However, I never detected any degradation of my LPs due to playing. This was the late 70's until the CD became dominant (I used a Shure V15 type V cartridge, mostly).
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 06, 2018, 08:12:15 AM
I am wondering about two things, one practical, the other more theoretical.
1. How often should you clean your records?
2. Is LP wear & tear (assuming a good clean record) something of a myth?
Re 1), most people seem to be saying that once you have cleaned a record thoroughly, you shouldn't have to do so ever again. One clean on a respectable cleaner and it's good to go, as long as you brush it before/after playing and store it properly. Your experiences please.
Re 2), I am reading from a lot of collectors that if you treat your records properly, they will barely wear out, no matter how many times you play them (again, assuming proper treatment). I have to say that I'm quite stunned at how good 50+ year old LPs can sound if they're kept in good shape. Your experiences please.
1) I have digitized all my LPs, and do not play them any more. But before that I just brushed them - before spinning them - with a brush made by hairs from a marten. And I have never had serious dust-problems.
2) I store the LPs, I have kept, upright in their sleeves in not to hot surroundings. Earlier, when I played the LPs, I was careful to check the condition of the stylus regularly. I do not remember any LPs being worn so much, that the sound quality was affected.
As Turner writes, the biggest problem with new LPs is, whether they are badly centered - i,e, the central hole not being in the exact centrum.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on January 06, 2018, 08:58:50 AM
I remember the claim that playing an LP a few times will "erase" all of the high frequency.
I think this claim came from the quadrophonic era. Surround sound was encoded above 20 kHz and required a Shibata stylus for playback.
Otherwise, I say play your records as often as you like.
Here's a comment I found on an audio forum:
FWIW, I once set my Denon DP-47F turntable on "Repeat" and ran it all night using an Audio-Technica AT440ML. I recorded the first pass and the last pass to the PC and couldn't measure or hear any differences. High-frequency response and noise levels were the same for the first and last passes.
Yet the conventional wisdom was that "every playback degrades the vinyl." I'm not taking this one guy's experience as normative, but based on my own experience and that of others, LPs that are properly cared for should degrade very little or not at all.
...with a well set-up cartridge. I think if you year audible distortion/mistracking your stylus may be bouncing around the groove and doing more damage than if it is tracking properly. I remember that the main selling point of cartridges used to be how low a tracking force could be used, but I never found that they worked well at the lowest specified tracking force. I always adjusted them to the high end of the specified range of tracking force and was happier with the results. (Maybe my tonearm wasn't adequate.)
Here's an odd one. Has anyone heard of the "24 hour rule"? According to some vinylists, you shouldn't play an LP more than once every 24 hours, because the vinyl has "memory" and will get warped or overheated (or something) if you play it too often. I have no idea if this is true.
I think I have heard of the 24 hour rule. Sounds like utter nonsense to me.
I don't think cleaning needs to be done (or should be done) very often. I always clean new acquisitions whether they are new/sealed or used. Sometimes, new/sealed LPs are the worst offenders, as mould release compound and tiny bits of vinyl remain (or become) lodged in the grooves. As for used, I have no idea what they've been subjected to by their previous owners--judging from the scratch marks on the paper label, it appears many people place LPs on their 'table in total darkness. ::) Regardless, even after a thorough cleaning, and storing in a high quality inner sleeve, DUST is ALWAYS an issue. Therefore, a light/gentle cleaning with a record brush (I use an Audioquest brush) happens before every playback. Otherwise the dust will quickly accumulate on the stylus and affect playback in a not-so-subtle way! If you want to be extra careful, buy a rocket blower and blow air over the surface first.
As for frequency of playing, I have so many records, so many new acquisitions, and relatively little time (and lots of CDs to listen to!), that every time I play an LP, it is also getting recorded in Audacity, saved as an .aup file, and exported to FLAC.
It does stand to reason that every playback will cause some degradation, as you obviously have a tiny stylus being dragged through a plastic disk. Regardless of the tracking force, the area of contact is tiny, so you have enormous pressure on the disk. I have also heard the 24 hr, rule, but not in terms of "memory", but in terms of the grooves heating up and liquifying temporarily. I have no firsthand knowledge of whether this is true or not, but I have always played it safe in this regard in any case. I would advise that if you have LPs you love a great deal and play frequently--DIGITIZE them, and play the FLAC file frequently. Save the LP itself for a special treat.
Having said that, if you have a decent quality 'table, arm, and cartridge that are set up correctly, you should not have to worry too much. If you are using something ghastly like a Crosley with ceramic cartridge, then, yes, you're screwed--but I doubt anyone here would use something like that!
Vinyl is a delicate medium but with some basic rules for handling, care and storage [in no particular order of importance] they will outlive you:
Like others here I clean all acquisitions on purchase, and rarely after that.
When cleaning vinyl I wear cotton gloves.
Handle with care. Do not leave fingerprints anywhere to be seen.
Once cleaned, store vinyl in anti-static inner sleeves.
Always store vinyl upright and in moderate climatic conditions.
Replace your stylus when you hear the need.
Set your equipment up properly.
Wipe the record with appropriate tool prior to playing to remove any built up static.
Vinyl is one of the pleasures of Life. 8)
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on January 06, 2018, 04:42:59 PM
I don't think cleaning needs to be done (or should be done) very often.
Quote from: aligreto on January 07, 2018, 03:13:50 AM
Like others here I clean all acquisitions on purchase, and rarely after that.
This appears to be the general consensus, although I suspect cleaning every couple of years or so might make sense. Dust and dirt have a way of invading spaces over time even when you take precautions against them.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 07, 2018, 08:51:35 AM
This appears to be the general consensus, although I suspect cleaning every couple of years or so might make sense. Dust and dirt have a way of invading spaces over time even when you take precautions against them.
The frequency of cleaning will obviously depend on usage/playing time but in reality static is the enemy as it attracts dust and dirt.
What do you use to combat static? My audio dealer had a $100 anti-static gun for sale, but even he seemed to think it was a bit of a ripoff. I am sure cheaper versions are available online, but I have never investigated this much. A small minority of my LPs do have static issues, and I would like to treat them with something and then give them another spin.
Quote from: aligreto on January 07, 2018, 03:13:50 AM
Vinyl is one of the pleasures of Life. 8)
Indeed. It is kind of like mechanical watches (of which I have a few). They certainly require care and some expense, and are not as accurate as quartzzzzzzzzzz timepieces, but what a
soul they possess!
As for LPs, I actually enjoy cleaning them. My audio dealer lets me use his Keith Monks or ClearAudio machines (Each about $6000, which I would never pay!). I make a day out of it--drive up there, clean a dozen or so (takes well over an hour), visit my watch dealer (same neighborhood), have some haute cuisine (Waffles actually!!), coffee, etc. Makes for a very nice afternoon. Sometimes my wife comes along and goes shopping for her stuff (watch and/or audio equipment acquisitions do not happen in this case)
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on January 07, 2018, 05:35:36 PM
What do you use to combat static?
Just a brush.
QuoteAs for LPs, I actually enjoy cleaning them.
Me too. I enjoy running them thru the Spin-Clean, which is a "hands-on" method in the most literal sense.
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on January 07, 2018, 05:35:36 PM
What do you use to combat static?
I use the standard carbon fibre brush before I spin each side
(https://imagescdn.juno.co.uk/full/IS289298-01-01-BIG.jpg)
But I also store my vinyl in anti-static inner sleeves and use the Nagaoka brand
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61olGjNEOrL._SL1279_.jpg)
Just to make a seperate point I use an Okki Nokki record cleaning machine which, at least in Europe, is reasonably priced and from my experience performs well
(https://gadgetflowcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Okki-Nokki-Record-Cleaning-Machine-02.jpg)
The cleaning fluid that I use is L'Art du Son
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31mB94Bb45L.jpg)
Quote from: aligreto on January 10, 2018, 08:31:48 AM
But I also store my vinyl in anti-static inner sleeves and use the Nagaoka brand
This is a nitpicky question but I will ask it anyway because aesthetics matter.
Do these high-quality inner sleeves (of whatever brand) fit completely in the LP jacket? I ask because I have a bunch of paper sleeves that stick slightly out of the jacket - not an appealing look in my view.
Oh, and as long as we're nitpicking, what do you guys think of the Magic Eraser (cost: a couple of bucks) as stylus cleaner?
http://high-endaudio.com/Magic.html
I use it and it seems to get the job done.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 10, 2018, 08:57:07 AM
This is a nitpicky question but I will ask it anyway because aesthetics matter.
Do these high-quality inner sleeves (of whatever brand) fit completely in the LP jacket? I ask because I have a bunch of paper sleeves that stick slightly out of the jacket - not an appealing look in my view.
Not a nitpicky question at all and I know those larger inner sleeves drove me nuts.
The answer, in the case of the Nagaoka is yes because of the shape of the bottom of the sleeve which is made to fit the vinyl snugly. If you have a very small jacket you can cut the top of the inner sleeve to fit.
However, I store my vinyl slightly differently in that all of my vinyl is also stored in an outer sleeve with a sealed flap. I first place the LP jacket [empty] into the outer sleeve and then I place the vinyl [in its inner sleeve] into the outer sleeve, behind the jacket. This prevents ring wear on the jacket.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 10, 2018, 09:08:05 AM
Oh, and as long as we're nitpicking, what do you guys think of the Magic Eraser (cost: a couple of bucks) as stylus cleaner?
http://high-endaudio.com/Magic.html
I use it and it seems to get the job done.
I do not use it but a friend of mine does and he says that it is great.
I use a Discwasher stylus brush dry in between plays, and then occasionally an Onzow Zerodust.
When I was in the audio business, we used a microscope with dual lights to shine on the tip of the stylus. It was easy to see wear, dust, or damage. 1000 hours of play was considered the average life of a tip before wear would allow it to glide over the top of very high frequencies.
My housekeeping is not fastidious. Therefore, there is dust around, and it is most annoying when it ends up as clicks and pops on playback. A lot depends on the quality of your stereo system. The finer it is, the more you will want to keep your discs free of dust and dirt. Cleaning a record before each play becomes a must, as is cleaning the stylus. Dust loves fingerprints on a record, so only hold a record by the edges and centre.
While I have a carbon fibre brush and others, I still use a Discwasher brush, which is rather like those magic brushes used for removing lint on clothes, with a nap in one direction. The carbon fibre brush is useful because, if it is removed by sliding it over the spindle, static will be grounded.
I also still use a Discwasher stylus brush, while also having a Watts and various other stylus brushes such as the one that came with my Denon DL103. Remember to brush only from the bottom of the shank, where it enters the cartridge body, to the tip so as not to damage the cantilever.
One day, when I am born richer and not so good looking, I will buy a record cleaning machine to clean those records that have come to me noisy already.
BTW, Stanton, a very old name in cartridge manufacturing, once did a laboratory test on record wear. In a dust free room, a record was played 100 times on an automatic turntable. No wear was found on the record afterwards, no wait period between plays either.
Hope this helps,
Elk
Quote from: Elk on January 17, 2018, 03:57:45 AM
When I was in the audio business, we used a microscope with dual lights to shine on the tip of the stylus. It was easy to see wear, dust, or damage. 1000 hours of play was considered the average life of a tip before wear would allow it to glide over the top of very high frequencies.
The audio dealer told me my stylus life was 500-1000 hours. Assuming average play of 5 hours/week, I plan to replace the stylus every 3 years.
I only discovered the Magic Eraser cure when I put a record on and it sounded strangulated. I thought there was something wrong with my speakers. I then looked closely and saw gunk and dust on the stylus. The Magic Eraser cleaned it up.
QuoteBTW, Stanton, a very old name in cartridge manufacturing, once did a laboratory test on record wear. In a dust free room, a record was played 100 times on an automatic turntable. No wear was found on the record afterwards, no wait period between plays either.
Hope this helps,
Elk
Yes, nice to know.
Speaking of minor upgrades - does anyone here use a record puck?
See here:
https://www.projectaudio.com.au/products/record-puck
Recommended or not?
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 06, 2018, 07:01:12 AM
Speaking of minor upgrades - does anyone here use a record puck?
See here:
https://www.projectaudio.com.au/products/record-puck
Recommended or not?
QuoteOnly to be used on turntables with high quality bearing
I think that the above quote in the advertisement that you have posted above is relevant and important. Some of these pucks are heavy enough and can grip quite tightly so this must be a consideration.
Quote from: aligreto on March 06, 2018, 07:49:41 AM
I think that the above quote in the advertisement that you have posted above is relevant and important. Some of these pucks are heavy enough and can grip quite tightly so this must be a consideration.
Yeah, good point. I'm wondering if it really makes a difference anyway. I've found a number of lighter, cheaper versions that look decent, maybe I'll experiment with one of them.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 06, 2018, 10:35:05 AM
Yeah, good point. I'm wondering if it really makes a difference anyway. I've found a number of lighter, cheaper versions that look decent, maybe I'll experiment with one of them.
It makes sense that a bit of weight could help damp vibration of the LP and hold it flat, but something heavy enough to ruin your turntable bearings sounds absurdly over the top. Something that heavy could warp the record.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 06, 2018, 10:35:05 AM
Yeah, good point. I'm wondering if it really makes a difference anyway. I've found a number of lighter, cheaper versions that look decent, maybe I'll experiment with one of them.
I agree with the point that Baron Scarpia makes. I do use one on one of my turntables but it is a light plastic one such as you describe but does grip the spindle tightly but was designed to go with that particular turntable.