I haven't heard anything by this composer, and it seems like some rate him quite highly. Does there exist any CPE Bach discs that could be considered desert island material?
Is it top notch? I don't know, but I have certainly enjoyed listening to one cello concerto (on the radio) from this two-disc set (http://www.amazon.com/CPE-Bach-Symphonies-Concertos-Leonhardt/dp/B00004TQQL/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1230402633&sr=1-1).
And CPE for the Desert Island? With the usual limit placed on the quantity of discs, I don't think so. :P
Quote from: opus67 on December 27, 2008, 09:34:39 AM
And CPE for the Desert Island? With the usual limit placed on the quantity of discs, I don't think so. :P
I have to agree. I've heard much CPE, but none of it ever seemed to deserve a desert island spot.
Quote from: Bulldog on December 27, 2008, 09:43:21 AM
I have to agree. I've heard much CPE, but none of it ever seemed to deserve a desert island spot.
Are there anything but JS on your island Don?
But the Bylsma cello concertoes disc was mye initial reaction for an earopener into CPEs musical universe.
Desert Island stuff? Depends on the size of the island I'd say.
Quote from: erato on December 27, 2008, 09:57:56 AM
Are there anything but JS on your island Don?
Certainly. Some Mozart, Beethoven, Scriabin, Schumann, Chopin, Zemlinsky, Weinberg, Miaskovksy, Shostakovich, etc., and even a Gade disc on Chandos.
I would find some room for his Magnificat (Wq. 215)... 8)
Old HIP School, but marvelous and with Elly Ameling: And a recent issue that I didn't get yet:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/9591255.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4009350834125.jpg)
Q
Quote from: Que on December 27, 2008, 10:45:49 AM
Old HIP School
I apologise for the digression, but I really need to get to grips with these terminologies. :D Modern is HIP, but old-school are conductors from the pre/post-WWII(?) days of the twentieth century. Now, what's Old HIP? ??? How many HIP-types are there?
Quote from: rubio on December 27, 2008, 08:33:28 AM
I haven't heard anything by this composer.
Really??? I just listened to his Piano Trios on cpo label (Trio 1790) 0:)
I'd recommend Keyboard Concertos on BIS label played by Miklós Spányi (tangent piano)
C.P.E. Bach was one of the most importants composer between baroque and classism.
Quote from: opus67 on December 27, 2008, 10:53:04 AM
I apologise for the digression, but I really need to get to grips with these terminologies. :D Modern is HIP, but old-school are conductors from the pre/post-WWII(?) days of the twentieth century. Now, what's Old HIP? ??? How many HIP-types are there?
Well, I could also say
early HIP - from the pioneering era of the HIP movement.
Harnoncourt founded Concentus Musicus Wien in 1953 for instance, the Collegium Aureum was founded in 1962. This recording was made in 1966.
Q
Quote from: 71 dB on December 27, 2008, 11:19:47 AM
Really??? I just listened to his Piano Trios on cpo label (Trio 1790) 0:)
I'd recommend Keyboard Concertos on BIS label played by Miklós Spányi (tangent piano)
C.P.E. Bach was one of the most importants composer between baroque and classism.
I second the choice of Spanyi's BIS series - both the solo works and the concertos. There's a nice compilation on BIS that has claims to be the perfect introduction to CPE's music. I think it's just the ticket for the CPE newbie.:
A Journey Around C.P.E. Bach
BIS-CD-311506
EAN 7318593115067 • TT 79'28
(http://www.qualiton.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/068/068_311506.jpg)
Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach: Cello Concerto in A major, H.439 (W.172); Keyboard Sonata in G major, H.119 (W.62/19); Fantasia and Fugue in C minor for organ; Sonata in D major for flute and organ, H.505 (W.83); Keyboard Concerto in C minor, H.448 (W.37)
Hidemi Suzuki, cello; Bach Collegium Japan; Miklós Spányi, clavichord/tangent piano; Jacques van Oortmerssen, organ; Lena Weman, flute; Hans-Ola Ericsson, organ; Concerto Armonico
QuoteA grand tour of the musical world of C.P.E Bach is what this varied anthology offers. In it you will find a small selection from the many BIS discs dedicated to this underrated composer. C.P.E. Bach was active – and influential – during one of the great shifts in the history of music: that from baroque to classicism. This was both a revolution in musical styles and also a sociological shift. The rise of a bourgeoisie with money to spare meant that musicians had a new audience, a new market for which to make music – without neglecting the previous great patrons of music: the aristocracy and the church. C.P.E. Bach straddled this divide with a rare gift for compromise. This is amply demonstrated by a programme which includes a flute sonata probably written with the composer's long-time employer Frederick the Great in mind; a keyboard concerto and a cello concerto, both intended for public performances at one of the Berlin concert societies; a keyboard sonata – the genre which to a great extent was shaped by this enormously prolific composer – and, finally, a fugue for organ by this son of the greatest of all organ composers. In short: this disc opens up an entire continent of timbres, moods and sensibilities which to many is still unknown – bon voyage!
Press voices about some of the recordings which make up this compilation:
"Luister! CD" Luister • "Recomendado" CD Compact
"Spányi plays with immense intelligence and superb emotional and digital sensitivity" International Record Review (BIS-CD-1097)
"Suzuki's are refreshing and enlivening performances of attractive and substantial music" Gramophone; "Rosette" Penguin Guide (BIS-CD-807)
"Ces œuvres de CPE sont proposées sous un jour élégant et coloré par Oortmerssen" Répertoire (BIS-CD-569)
Quote from: 71 dB on December 27, 2008, 11:19:47 AM
Really??? I just listened to his Piano Trios on cpo label (Trio 1790) 0:)
I'd recommend Keyboard Concertos on BIS label played by Miklós Spányi (tangent piano)
C.P.E. Bach was one of the most importants composer between baroque and classism.
Well, I'm completely w/
Poju on his opinion of
CPE Bach, an excellent composer and also an important transitional figure in the mid-18th century - if you love this period of music, then you cannot escape listening to this son of
Papa Bach; also,
GP Telemann was his godfather!
Now in reference to a 'desert island' disc, I would NEVER want to be marooned on such a place - I'm a 'land lover' period, so not a pertinent question for me! ;) ;D
Concerning the original OP, I have about two dozen discs of
CPE Bach's music - he was quite versatile writing a wide variety of compositions - I enjoy his keyboard and chamber works the best, but his orchestral and choral creations are also quite enjoyable! Please let us know 'what' type of his music you might appreciate the most and further recommendations will follow! :)
Quote from: Que on December 27, 2008, 12:50:25 PM
Well, I could also say early HIP - from the pioneering era of the HIP movement.
Ah.
QuoteHarnoncourt founded Concentus Musicus Wien in 1953 for instance, the Collegium Aureum was founded in 1962. This recording was made in 1966.
Q
Wow. '53! I didn't know HIP was
that old.
This is the only CPE disc that I have, but it blows me away! Amazing stuff. The reviews are good too:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/316ZDA1ZB6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 27, 2008, 05:21:19 PM
(http://www.qualiton.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/068/068_311506.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/9591255.jpg)
Thank you very much for the recommendations and comments! I think I will make the above two CD's my introduction to this composer :).
Well, again not sure 'what' you may like relative to this versatile composer, I'll list a few of the recordings in my collection that may be of interest:
Sonatas for Flute - Barthold Kuijken on flute; Demeyere on harpsichord/fortepiano - keep in mind the CPE worked for Frederick the Great, a superb flute player; so the composer wrote a lot of music for this instrument - this is just a wonderful 2-CD set, so if you like chamber flute from this era, worth a consideration.
Flute & Oboe Concertos w/ many, including Nicolet & Holliger; budget 2-CD Philips Duo.
Piano Trios w/ Trio 1790 - on period instruments - wonderful chamber music of the era!
Symphonies & Cello Concertos w/ Bylsma & Leonhardt - 2-CD set.
Have a lot more, but this should provide some 'orchestral & chamber' variety - enjoy! :D
(http://www.classicsonline.com/images/cds/ACC24171.gif) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HG9F5DG5L._SL500_AA180_.jpg)
(http://img.towerrecords.co.jp/images/jacket/7612/761203921621.jpg) (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/virgin5617942.jpg)
Two of my favorite CPE Bach recordings are shown below. The first features Christine Schornsheim and Michael Behringer playing the Concerto for Harpsichord and Fortepiano Wq 479 with Gottfried von der Goltz and the Freiburg Barockorchester, a work that I have come to appreciate more and more. The second is by Andrew Manze and the English Concert. They both include a Cello Concerto (Wq 171/H 436 in B-flat on the Carus recording; Wq. 172 in A on the Harmonia Mundi recording) as well as some Sinfonia.
Are they desert island recordings? Perhaps... They usually find their way on to my ipod so I guess they'd be shipwrecked with me. ;)
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/80/801336.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61rp03Pil6L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Has anybody here heard this one? It seems quite nice from the clips.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0794881852925.jpg)
I haven't. But I hate their Boccherini symphonies disc, so I'd definitely sample extensively before committing my pesos.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 30, 2008, 05:33:23 PM
I haven't. But I hate their Boccherini symphonies disc, so I'd definitely sample extensively before committing my pesos.
Rubio - I'd agree w/
André, you've already gotten nearly a dozen recommendations and now bring up an 'unknown' - please give the ones suggested a try first - again, good luck in your choices! :D
I think our friend Rubio is trying to get an introduction that will cover all bases (symphonies, concertos, and a mix of instruments (cello, harpsichord). Fair enough. That's as good a solution as any. But it's like choosing a single disc to represent Mozart or Beethoven. What would it sound like to have one symphony, one quartet, one concerto and one sonata ? Maybe a good overview, but then you'd end up back to square one, looking for more.
And re-reading this thread for additional recommendations :D.
Quote from: rubio on December 30, 2008, 07:12:42 AM
Has anybody here heard this one? It seems quite nice from the clips.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0794881852925.jpg)
Although I don't have that, it has garnered excellent reviews. I believe it got the 10/10 at Classicstoday.com, but I don't recall who reviewed it. I have a number of recordings by the AAMB and they are all of high quality, although I don't have the Boccherini. I especially love "Ouvertüren: Music for the Hamburg Opera" and their recording of music by WF Bach. Their recording of the Brandenburg Concertos is also very highly regarded, so I don't think you will go far wrong with this recording.
For what it's worth, Peter Bruns, the cellist on that hm Gold disc, is excellent. Haven't heard that album in particular, but I would definitely recommend his work.
(http://www.alapage.com/resize.php?ref=512347&type=2&w=500&h=500&z=.jpg?rand=175038161)
I find this repertoire by CPE addictive. Hope that BIS comes off with a box set soon! :)
Q
Quote from: Que on January 27, 2009, 07:36:41 AM
(http://www.alapage.com/resize.php?ref=512347&type=2&w=500&h=500&z=.jpg?rand=175038161) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/BISCD1329.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/BISCD1487.jpg)
I find this repertoire by CPE addictive. Hope that BIS comes off with a box set soon! :)
Q - can't find much @ all on Amazon USA, but the
MDT Website has numerous Spanyi
CPE Bachofferings on the BIS label - seems to be two different types of cover art - placed a couple above - appear to be different sets (one on
clavichord & the other on
tangent piano) - boy, a BOX set or two would indeed help! Dave :D
Quote from: SonicMan on January 27, 2009, 07:49:53 AM
Q - can't find much @ all on Amazon USA, but the MDT Website has numerous Spanyi CPE Bachofferings on the BIS label - seems to be two different types of cover art - placed a couple above - appear to be different sets (one on clavichord & the other on tangent piano) - boy, a BOX set or two would indeed help! Dave :D
Dave. It's a series of
concertos and another series with
solo works! :)
As to Amazon, click
here (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_m?url=node%3D85&field-keywords=bach+spanyi&x=0&y=0).
Q
Quote from: Que on January 27, 2009, 08:25:34 AM
Dave. It's a series of concertos and another series with solo works! :)
As to Amazon, click here (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_m?url=node%3D85&field-keywords=bach+spanyi&x=0&y=0).
Q - thanks for the clarification! Also, thought that I entered the same search criteria that your link to Amazon USA demonstrates - ::) Well, sometimes just doesn't seem to return the same results - Dave :)
Quote from: Que on January 27, 2009, 08:25:34 AM
Dave. It's a series of concertos and another series with solo works! :)
As to Amazon, click here (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_m?url=node%3D85&field-keywords=bach+spanyi&x=0&y=0).
Q
Both series are eminently collectible. CPE Bach and Boccherini are the greatest musicains between the Bach-Handel-Scarlatti axis and the Haydn-Mozart one. In many works, they prove to be totally worthy of that hallowed quintet. I've purchased many discs' worth of downloads from the BIS CPE Edition on eclassical's website (http://www.eclassical.com/eclassic/eclassical?&composer_id=350&genre_id=7&last_page=NA&letter=B&page=composer_refine_results_genre&method=showpage). I'll stand in line to buy the whole caboodle when it's eventually issued. That BIS collection is one of the gramophone's gereat events (shades of London's Dorati Haydn symphonies series).
Edit: my take on Bruckner's 4-5 with Kempe MPO in the Bruckner Abbey - in a couple of hours ;)
Interesting comments by
André! :)
It seems that I'm having a CPE breakthrough lately. First the Magnificat and now the keyboard series with Spanyi. Just the wealth of period keyboard instruments: harpsichord, clavichord, tangent piano & fortepiano is simply irresistible! :o ;D
And what about this quote on CPE by Paul Shoemaker on Musicweb?
Certainly I will never forget my introduction to this music, in the form of H 427. The University of Southern California student orchestra was conducted from the cembalo continuo by Ingolf Dahl, the cembalo concertato was played by Ronald Ratcliffe, and from the first notes I was utterly transported. I had been completely unaware that such magnificent music existed from the pen of C.P.E. Bach, and my feelings were so intensely aroused that I remember visualising the harpsichord as a boat borne upon the waves of violin bows as on a raging ocean. Naturally I immediately bought what LP recordings there were, and over the years there have been several of H. 427. Recordings available at the time of other concerti by C.P.E. Bach were usually disappointingly thin and uncommitted, but I also bought them anyway.
We are finally discovering what Mozart, Haydn, and Burney all told us: that C.P.E. Bach was a major composer. I believe that eventually his operas will become as popular as his keyboard concerti. Quote from: SonicMan on January 28, 2009, 03:28:54 PM
Q - now stop tempting me w/ those Spanyi CPE Bach discs! You're driving me crazy! ;) ;D
Now, how many have been published! Dave :)
(http://www.fineartsguild.com/images/galleries/1/goingcrazy.jpg)
Many,
Dave, many! :o ::)
See
here (http://freenet-homepage.de/miklos.spanyi/miklos_spanyi_discography.html#cpeb_keyboard_concertos) on Miklos Spanyi's website: 16 volumes of concertos and 18 volumes of solo keyboard to date! :o I've read somewhere that the total of concertos might be some 19 volumes, so still a few to go! Couldn't find more precise info on the BIS site.
It's a dilemma... :-\ Gorgeous music just discovered, but I guess we'll have to wait at least a few years (2-3?) before a box set emerges... So I decided to pick up some volumes whenever I see them as a bargain (just did) as a taster for the box set, whenever that will come. :)
Q
Quote from: Que on January 28, 2009, 10:08:26 PM
Many, Dave, many! :o ::)
See here (http://freenet-homepage.de/miklos.spanyi/miklos_spanyi_discography.html#cpeb_keyboard_concertos) on Miklos Spanyi's website: 16 volumes of concertos and 18 volumes of solo keyboard to date! :o I've read somewhere that the total of concertos might be some 19 volumes, so still a few to go! Couldn't find more precise info on the BIS site.
It's a dilemma... :-\ Gorgeous music just discovered, but I guess we'll have to wait at least a few years (2-3?) before a box set emerges... So I decided to pick up some volumes whenever I see them as a bargain (just did) as a taster for the box set, whenever that will come. :)
Q
Boy, I did not realize that
Carl PE Bach wrote THAT MUCH for keyboard (orchestral or solo) - just checked my
CPE Bach collection and have nearly two dozen discs, but only two are devoted to the works in question - guess that I've been concentrating more on his Papa's keyboard output (which is not a bad idea! ;)) - :D Dave
Right now listening to the glorious A major concerto (from Vol 7). And believe me, 'glorious' is not an hyperbole. This is absolutely the equal, if not more, of Mozart's E Flat concerto (no 9). The main difference is that CPE didn't encumber himself with curlicues and harmonic caramel. His was a direct, no-nonsense musical personality, with a clear penchant for the darker aspects of the musical affect: melancholy, drama, imperativeness and gravity. He didn't seem to have any patience for the more moody, or 'feminine' aspects.
Somewhere in the pile is the Magnificat, performed by Collegium Aureum. And the great Himmelfahrt Jesu oratorio. I haven't listened to it in some 30 years, so it will be a new voyage of discovery.
So now that we have this "Classical" (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11225.0.html) thing going! ;D
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0035627718724.jpg)
Anyone that can comment on this recording? Thanks! :)
Q
C.P.E. Bach (1714-1788)
Carl Phillip Emanuel Bach
Among his contemporaries Carl Phillip Emanuel Bach had the reputation of being a pleasant, sociable man with a gift for wordplay, who was not afraid of making critical remarks even to persons of high rank. He seldom took sides in musical controversies, but when he did he expressed himself vigorously; some light is shed on his own views by his comment, printed in the 'Hamburgischer Unpartheyischer Correspondent' of 20 September 1785, on an English newspaper report claiming that there was tension between him and Haydn: 'It is my belief that every master has his own true worth. Praise and blame can do nothing to alter it. The work alone allots praise or blame to the master, and I therefore take everyone as I find him'. He reacted angrily to criticism of his father and to the publication of unauthorized editions, vehemently attacking Birnstiel's edition of J.S. Bach's chorales and Rellstab's reprints of his own works issued when Rellstab took over the publishing firm of Emanuel's friend G.L. Winter. Nor did he conceal his dislike of the modern Italian music of the time, in particular of such excesses as the intrusion into sacred music of stylistic elements from comic opera. He also had a low opinion of the style developed by Johann Schobert and by his own half-brother Johann Christian.
Bach was a good businessman. Most of his publications were commercially successful, and indeed he preferred not to publish a work if he thought it unlikely to sell, as in the case of his 'Auferstehung und Himmelfahrt Jesu' in 1784. His business acumen was sometimes interpreted as avarice, but he was extremely generous to his friends and family, and would give them copies of his printed works and autograph manuscripts that he no longer needed, or let them have copies at cost price to himself. He took his half-brother Johann Christian into his family after their father's death and later did the same for his nephew Wilhelm Friedrich Ernst on the latter's return from England; he also provided regular financial support for his widowed half-sister Elisabeth Juliana Friederica. He was particularly close to his half-brother Johann Christoph Friedrich, exchanging sheet music with him on a regular basis.
Bach would often play for hours to visitors, his favourite instrument being a clavichord built by Gottfried Silbermann which he passed on to his pupil and friend Ewald von Grotthuss in 1781, together with the rondo Abschied von meinem Silbermannischen Claviere h272 (w66); Grotthuss responded with thanks in the form of a rondo composed by himself. Writing about rhetoric in his' Essay on the True Art of Playing Keyboard Instruments', Bach emphasized that the musician must be able to place himself in the same emotional state as he wishes to arouse in his hearers, and warned against mannerisms and exaggerations. When improvising he seemed quite enraptured; his playing as a whole was notable for its clarity and cantabile style, and left a lasting impression on his audience.
Like many other musicians and music lovers of the time, Bach owned a large collection of portraits of musicians, which he was always seeking to extend through purchase and exchange. He even toyed with the idea of publishing a catalogue of his collection, but that project was realized only after his death.
Concerto for two Harpsichords and Orchestra in F major Wq 46/3
Allegro assai
Musica Antiqua Koln
Andreas Staier
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMkzyiEu9NU
C P E Bach was one of the most important artists of the aesthetic movement called "Sturm und Drang", a sort of pre-romantic movement in the second half of the 18th century.
Within that aesthetic he composed the 6 Symphonies Wq 182 (1773) and the 4 Symphonies Wq 183 (1776), to me the most important Symphonies composed in the second half of the 18th century after those of Josef Haydn and Mozart.
The masterpiece of his chamber music are the Quartets for fortepiano, flute and viola, Wq 94/6.
Regarding the clavier music, the Fantasies and Sonatas included in the remarkable recording of Andreas Staier are a splendid example of his imagination. But the 6 Sonatas Wq 49 (1742) are perhaps his best and original works for harpsichord.
Has anyone heard CPE Bach's concerto for harpsichord and piano forte?
*I guess its just for 2 keyboards and my recording uses 1 harpsichord and 1 pf. mmm kinda interesting still
Quote from: Mozart on March 08, 2010, 07:23:27 PM
Has anyone heard CPE Bach's concerto for harpsichord and piano forte?
*I guess its just for 2 keyboards and my recording uses 1 harpsichord and 1 pf. mmm kinda interesting still
Are you refering to the double concerto Wq 47? Great piece and intended for this combination, though also exists in an arrangement for two pianos. :)
Double concerto Wq 46 is for two harpsichords. I hope you have the DHM disc with both works by Gustav Leonhardt & Alan Curtis et al.
Q
Quote from: Que on March 08, 2010, 09:57:41 PM
Are you refering to the double concerto Wq 47? Great piece and intended for this combination, though also exists in an arrangement for two pianos. :)
Double concerto Wq 46 is for two harpsichords. I hope you have the DHM disc with both works by Gustav Leonhardt & Alan Curtis et al.
Q
Hmm it has the number h 479
Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach - Concerto in E Flat Major (H 479)
Double Concertos by Bach's Sons
by Gustav Leonhardt, Leonhardt-Consort and Concentus musicus Wien
here it is
http://www.7digital.com/artists/gustav-leonhardt-leonhardt-consort-and-concentus-musicus-wien/double-concertos-by-bachs-sons?partner=678
Let me make sure this is the one that used 1 piano and 1 harpsichord
Yes I guess it is the same cd you mentioned Q, but I was talking about CPE's concerto, really enjoyable performances.
Quote from: Mozart on March 09, 2010, 08:26:52 AM
Yes I guess it is the same cd you mentioned Q, but I was talking about CPE's concerto, really enjoyable performances.
Same piece, but probably not the same disc! :)
Mine:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0054727741029.jpg)
Yours! 8)
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0825646113729.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0825646946518.jpg)
Q
YES! thats the one Q!
I am becoming obsessed with this concerto, its like half Vivaldi and half Haydn (=
Yes boys and girls, a masterpiece by good old CPE! :o :)
Think a pre-Mozartian oratorio in CPE's style with "Empfindlichkeit" (sensibility/ expressiveness), think (p)reminiscent of the choral version of Haydn's Seven Last Words, which was composed nearly two decades later.
Recorded in 1986 with Barbara Schlick in her hayday, a very young but already superb Christoph Prégardien and the venerable Max van Egmond in top form. Sigiswald Kuijken at the helm of La Petite Bande. To sum up: we have a winner, strongly recommend to all "preclassicals"! :)
I'm picturing the recently reissued bargain version:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0886975762729.jpg)
SAMPLES (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Carl-Philipp-Emanuel-Bach-Die-letzten-Leiden-des-Erl%F6sers/hnum/2537210)
Q
This set by Capriccio might be of interest:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OI1i-MJTL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(12 CD's for $45)
I had the chance to sample a large amount of his music, and IMHO, his most significant compositions appear to be his concertos and choral works. His symphonies are in the early Mannheim style and frankly they are too modest to bother with. His keyboard music is supposed to be quite experimental but good luck finding a recording that doesn't use a clavichord. Apparently at one point in his career the composer made an appreciatory remark for the instrument and now all the HIP retards think his keyboard music should be played on a toy.
Quote from: Barak on January 27, 2009, 04:31:00 PM
CPE Bach and Boccherini are the greatest musicains between the Bach-Handel-Scarlatti axis and the Haydn-Mozart one.
Erm, Boccherini was born
after Haydn. I'd say Gluck was probably the greatest composer of this period. And lets not forget Pergolesi or Mathias Georg Monn, who would have probably developed to be great composers as well had they lived longer.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 04, 2010, 06:24:04 AM
And lets not forget Pergolesi...
Good call. Hasse and maybe Locatelli could be mentioned too.
This one is awesome, BTW:
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/81/7b/0c387220eca07facee699010.L.jpg)
Very frustrating that there are not more choices in recordings of the symphonies. CPO has undertaken to record the complete J.C. Bach Symphonies, but no such committment to CPE, who I like a lot better.
I think the symphonies WQ 183 are remarkably fresh and I like also the WQ 182.
The best symphonies after Haydn and Mozart? Of course right if you take the best things these composers have written, like especially the late Mozart and Haydn symphonies. But Haydn often bores me when CPE Bach doesn't do that.
The point is still: There is a difference of style between the Viennese classic and CPE Bach. If you expect something like Haydn or Mozart you will be disappointed. You must take the man in his own right, then he is a very interesting composer.
And don't think of this music as "transitional". As mere transition between baroque and classical music. There is a certain style there which is unique, a certain freshness and boldness of expression. This is very interesting music.
Regards
Martin
His symphonies did not thrill me, but I really liked some of the Trio Sonatas.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AFC0ZSPWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Quote from: Scarpia on November 09, 2010, 10:53:01 AM
His symphonies did not thrill me, but I really liked some of the Trio Sonatas.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AFC0ZSPWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
A few months ago I heard a breathtaking trio sonatas of CPE on the radio. Can't remember which one, but it was a minor key work, and I rather enjoyed it more than the JSB trio sonatas I listened to the other day.
It might also have been from his release.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/210C22QZESL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
by Les Coucous Benevoles. It's on the Musica Viva label and I think it was a co-production of Canadian Radio.
Quote from: Scarpia on November 09, 2010, 12:31:46 PM
It might also have been from his release.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/210C22QZESL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
by Les Coucous Benevoles. It's on the Musica Viva label and I think it was a co-production of Canadian Radio.
Probably was exactly that recording, since it was the French-Canadian station I was tuned in. :)
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 09, 2010, 12:36:42 PM
Probably was exactly that recording, since it was the French-Canadian station I was tuned in. :)
I have both, but I've only listened to the Canadian one so far, which was very good. It includes some of the early Trio Sonatas, which were written under J.S. Bach's supervision.
Am I the only one here that didn't know that CPE Bach wrote some Violin Sonatas?
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachCPEVSscover.jpg)
And good ones too! There are 4 of them on this disk, Wq 76 - 78 and H 545 (I confess to not knowing the H numbers at all, but it is Wq deest). The addition of the violin (which has plenty of obbligato parts) seems to be what it took to get CPE into a jollier mood than I normally seem to get from him.
Edna Stern is playing a very nice sounding Walter reproduction. Amandine Beyer is a first rate fiddler who seems to be under contract with Zig-Zag. I have also her 4 Seasons which is in my Top 5 of those works. Anyway, I am delighted with this disk, wish I had known about it sooner so I would have been enjoying it for longer! :)
8)
----------------
Now playing:
Amandine Beyer (Violin) \ Edna Stern (Fortepiano) - Bach CPE Wq deest Sonata in g for Fortepiano & Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2010, 03:53:55 PM
Am I the only one here that didn't know that CPE Bach wrote some Violin Sonatas?
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachCPEVSscover.jpg)
And good ones too! There are 4 of them on this disk, Wq 76 - 78 and H 545 (I confess to not knowing the H numbers at all, but it is Wq deest). The addition of the violin (which has plenty of obbligato parts) seems to be what it took to get CPE into a jollier mood than I normally seem to get from him.
Edna Stern is playing a very nice sounding Walter reproduction. Amandine Beyer is a first rate fiddler who seems to be under contract with Zig-Zag. I have also her 4 Seasons which is in my Top 5 of those works. Anyway, I am delighted with this disk, wish I had known about it sooner so I would have been enjoying it for longer! :)
I was planning to post something about this remarkable disc, but I guess you've beaten me to it,
Gurn! ;D
Absolutely great stuff - original and imaginative music. Difficult to describe - please
have a listen (http://www.zigzag-territoires.com/article.php3?id_article=15&lang=en), but I thought them quite mature as compositions and forward looking in music-historical terms.Those who are into Mozart's violin sonatas and the likes, needn't hesitate! :) I like both performers very much. Amandine Beyer reminds me somewhat of Anton Steck, a favourite of Gurn and myself, strong projection and a firm tone, though Beyer is a bit less fierce than Steck. My first encounter with Edna Stern, but she is an outright winner: perfect interplay and great fingerwork, provides all kinds of shades and nuances with boldness when called for. I saw a reviewer that wrongly assumed that a piano was used and that the word "fortepianist" in the booklet was mistaken. No mistake, though is seems that the wonderfull sound of the Walter replica fools some and the description of the instrument is indeed hard to find. 8)
A resounding seconding of
Gurn's recommendation! :)
Q
Quote from: milk on June 27, 2011, 06:28:55 AM
I've been gaga for Gamba lately. Leaving aside Baroque, here are two recordings I recently purchased that fit into the paramaters of this thread:
(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/007/381/0000738112_350.jpg)
Milk,
Thanks for pointing this one out to us. I have been wanting some of this music for a while now, and didn't have a grip on where to go with it. This looks like the perfect starter disk.
As for your Pandolfo question, clearly you have discerned by now that I haven't a clue. :-\
8)
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 27, 2011, 06:41:21 AM
Milk,
Thanks for pointing this one out to us. I have been wanting some of this music for a while now, and didn't have a grip on where to go with it. This looks like the perfect starter disk.
As for your Pandolfo question, clearly you have discerned by now that I haven't a clue. :-\
8)
The Pandolfo recording has Rinaldo Alessandrini on harpsichord (can I restrain myself from this purchase?). The above recording - the one I own - employs a crisp sounding Silbermann fortepiano. Interesting stuff coming out of Italy!
Quote from: milk on June 27, 2011, 08:07:17 AM
The Pandolfo recording has Rinaldo Alessandrini on harpsichord (can I restrain myself from this purchase?). The above recording - the one I own - employs a crisp sounding Silbermann fortepiano. Interesting stuff coming out of Italy!
The Pandolfo/Alessandrini has been reissued on Brilliant (from Tactus, I believe). It was nice, but I wasn't quite over the moon by it. ::)
The Problem might be that neither of the distinguished gentlemen has a thing with the early-Classical period. I would expect more from the Ghielmi brothers! :)
Q
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on June 27, 2011, 12:08:18 PM
The Pandolfo/Alessandrini has been reissued on Brilliant (from Tactus, I believe). It was nice, but I wasn't quite over the moon by it. ::)
The Problem might be that neither of the distinguished gentlemen has a thing with the early-Classical period. I would expect more from the Ghielmi brothers! :)
Q
Right. After listening to the Pandolfo samples and getting more into the Ghielmi, I'm inclined to forgo the Pandolfo. The Ghielmi brothers made a fine recording. Not to wander off topic, but Pandolfo has made some interesting baroque recordings . But as for CPE Bach, the Pandolfo recording in the samples sounded a bit fussy. But I could very well change my mind down the road if I decide to explore it more. I love the sound of Ghielmi's Silbermann!
I don't know what it is about C.P.E Bach...Looking at my computer, I have about 24 hours of his music - including Spanyi (some of the solo and some of the concerto recordings) and, I should mention, the wonderful new Staier recording. I feel like with a lot of other composers I can tell you what it is I enjoy about them. Carl is a mystery to me. I'm still not sure exactly why I keep coming back for more. The Hamburg concertos (I have Van Asperen as well as the new Staier) are a more straightforward kind of pleasure. They're just so inventive and melodic and fun. But so much of his music is denser and harder to explain (in terms of my experience). These are my vague, clumsy, before bedtime thoughts.
Quote from: milk on June 28, 2011, 05:35:30 AM
I don't know what it is about C.P.E Bach...Looking at my computer, I have about 24 hours of his music - including Spanyi (some of the solo and some of the concerto recordings) and, I should mention, the wonderful new Staier recording. I feel like with a lot of other composers I can tell you what it is I enjoy about them. Carl is a mystery to me. I'm still not sure exactly why I keep coming back for more. The Hamburg concertos (I have Van Asperen as well as the new Staier) are a more straightforward kind of pleasure. They're just so inventive and melodic and fun. But so much of his music is denser and harder to explain (in terms of my experience). These are my vague, clumsy, before bedtime thoughts.
Don'tcha just hate that! :) It's funny to me, because this particular composer arouses the same feelings in me as in you. I also have a ton of his music and listen to it frequently and at length, but if pressed to explain why, I doubt I could. Or even to pick out a particular piece to represent him. Strange! :-\
8)
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 29, 2011, 08:33:39 AM
Don'tcha just hate that! :) It's funny to me, because this particular composer arouses the same feelings in me as in you. I also have a ton of his music and listen to it frequently and at length, but if pressed to explain why, I doubt I could. Or even to pick out a particular piece to represent him. Strange! :-\
8)
I often wonder what people at the time thought. I mean I get the feeling that there is something really cutting edge about CPE. It seems like his output was enormous...but I could be wrong about that since I don't really know about music history. Anyway, seems like the keyboard concertos are never ending. I like what Spanyi has done with his choice of instruments, both on the solo and concerto recordings. Yeah...CPE kind of baffles me. I can't think of anyone to compare his music to.
Quote from: milk on June 30, 2011, 12:42:46 AM
I often wonder what people at the time thought. I mean I get the feeling that there is something really cutting edge about CPE. It seems like his output was enormous...but I could be wrong about that since I don't really know about music history. Anyway, seems like the keyboard concertos are never ending. I like what Spanyi has done with his choice of instruments, both on the solo and concerto recordings. Yeah...CPE kind of baffles me. I can't think of anyone to compare his music to.
There really isn't anyone to compare him to, since the similar ones were all his disciples. :) One thing that has occurred to me is that he has been frequently referred to as a founder of Classical Style, and yet I can't see how. His sonatas are not like any typical classical sonata, and a great deal of his work is really fantasias. The one thing that I can see is in the use of the keyboard, where I think he was a pioneer for all, in that he influenced all subsequent composers in what the possibilities of the keyboard are. Sort of broke the shell there. :)
8)
Bach, CPE - Harpsichord Concertos, WQ 43 w/ Andreas Staier on a copy of a 1734 harpsichord (dual manuals) after Hass, Hamburg; along w/ Petra Mullejans conducting the Freiburger Barockorchester; about a dozen pages of liner notes in English written by Staier.
Despite CPE's prodigious keyboard output, this particular set of 6 concertos (on 2 discs) published in 1772 has been recorded in its entirety just once previously - so a unique recording not only for its rarity of performances available (this may be the only one at the moment?), but also for the importance of these works in the early development (and transition) of the keyboard concerto.
The performances are top notch and a strong consideration for Staier fans here! The stimulus for my purchase was an excellent review in the Am Record Guide (Jul-Aug 11 issue), which I've attached - :D
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-WKmhDmL/0/O/BachCPEStaier.jpg)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 15, 2011, 10:05:43 AM
Bach, CPE - Harpsichord Concertos, WQ 43 w/ Andreas Staier on a copy of a 1734 harpsichord (dual manuals) after Hass, Hamburg; along w/ Petra Mullejans conducting the Freiburger Barockorchester; about a dozen pages of liner notes in English written by Staier.
Despite CPE's prodigious keyboard output, this particular set of 6 concertos (on 2 discs) published in 1772 has been recorded in its entirety just once previously - so a unique recording not only for its rarity of performances available (this may be the only one at the moment?), but also for the importance of these works in the early development (and transition) of the keyboard concerto.
The performances are top notch and a strong consideration for Staier fans here! The stimulus for my purchase was an excellent review in the Am Record Guide (Jul-Aug 11 issue), which I've attached - :D
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-WKmhDmL/0/O/BachCPEStaier.jpg)
That looks interesting, Dave. I have it on my Wish List for now. But are you saying that this disk is not available any longer?
[asin]B00005A9NR[/asin]
Pity, because it is a very nice set also. Of course I
will have the Staier because I am partial to him... :)
8)
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 15, 2011, 10:15:18 AM
That looks interesting, Dave. I have it on my Wish List for now. But are you saying that this disk is not available any longer?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61KBFnOPQAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61-LDO9jwjL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Pity, because it is a very nice set also. Of course I will have the Staier because I am partial to him... :)
Hi
Guys - well the
Bob van Asperen recording was discussed in the attached review as the only other recording of these works - just checked Amazon and indeed the CD is listed there for $10 (I probably should make a purchase - gleamed five 5* reviews!).
Love the
Freiburger Barockorchester - the box is listed on Amazon USA for an early August released - 10 discs for $33 - BOY, that looks like a very good price - will check my database to see what I already own of this group but can't be that many recordings! Thanks for bringing our attention to this upcoming release (probably available already across the pond?). Dave :)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 15, 2011, 12:42:34 PM
Hi Guys - well the Bob van Asperen recording was discussed in the attached review as the only other recording of these works - just checked Amazon and indeed the CD is listed there for $10 (I probably should make a purchase - gleamed five 5* reviews!).
Love the Freiburger Barockorchester - the box is listed on Amazon USA for an early August released - 10 discs for $33 - BOY, that looks like a very good price - will check my database to see what I already own of this group but can't be that many recordings! Thanks for bringing our attention to this upcoming release (probably available already across the pond?). Dave :)
It gets a 5* from me, too, FWIW. I am a big fan of van Asperen. :)
8)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 15, 2011, 10:05:43 AM
Bach, CPE - Harpsichord Concertos, WQ 43 w/ Andreas Staier on a copy of a 1734 harpsichord (dual manuals) after Hass, Hamburg; along w/ Petra Mullejans conducting the Freiburger Barockorchester; about a dozen pages of liner notes in English written by Staier.
Despite CPE's prodigious keyboard output, this particular set of 6 concertos (on 2 discs) published in 1772 has been recorded in its entirety just once previously - so a unique recording not only for its rarity of performances available (this may be the only one at the moment?), but also for the importance of these works in the early development (and transition) of the keyboard concerto.
The performances are top notch and a strong consideration for Staier fans here! The stimulus for my purchase was an excellent review in the Am Record Guide (Jul-Aug 11 issue), which I've attached - :D
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-WKmhDmL/0/O/BachCPEStaier.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-tr4FS6s/0/O/BachCPEAsperen.jpg)
A few weeks ago I posted above on the new release by
Staier on a harpsichord of the
CPE Bach Hamburg Keyboard Concertos; the liner notes mentioned just one other recording of these works w/
Bob van Asperen, which
Gurn also made comments - well, as discussed previously the work is still available (and at a great price on the VeritasX2 label) - just received & and have given the discs a listen; also excellent although both provide a nice contrast of different players & bands. If you into transitional classical keyboard works played on harpsichord, then either (or BOTH) of these recordings are worth consideration - :)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 30, 2011, 09:09:29 AM
A few weeks ago I posted above on the new release by Staier on a harpsichord of the CPE Bach Hamburg Keyboard Concertos; the liner notes mentioned just one other recording of these works w/ Bob van Asperen, which Gurn also made comments - well, as discussed previously the work is still available (and at a great price on the VeritasX2 label) - just received & and have given the discs a listen; also excellent although both provide a nice contrast of different players & bands. If you into transitional classical keyboard works played on harpsichord, then either (or BOTH) of these recordings are worth consideration - :)
Ah, Dave, I thought you would like that van Asperen. I really need to get that Staier too. Not only one of my favorite keyboardists, but also accompanying orchestra. :) Thanks for the feedback, being as you have both to compare.
8)
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Now playing:
Armenian Philharmonic Orchestra / Loris Tjeknavorian - Khatchaturian Suite from 'Masquerade' pt 1 - Waltz
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 30, 2011, 09:09:29 AM
A few weeks ago I posted above on the new release by Staier on a harpsichord of the CPE Bach Hamburg Keyboard Concertos; the liner notes mentioned just one other recording of these works w/ Bob van Asperen, which Gurn also made comments - well, as discussed previously the work is still available (and at a great price on the VeritasX2 label) - just received & and have given the discs a listen; also excellent although both provide a nice contrast of different players & bands. If you into transitional classical keyboard works played on harpsichord, then either (or BOTH) of these recordings are worth consideration - :)
I've enjoyed the Van Asperen for quite some time. As Staier is one of my favorite keyboardists, I ran out and bought this as soon as I could (Ok I actually walked to my computer and downloaded it). It really is a contrast. I'd say the Staier/Mullejans performance is pretty bold and dynamic compared to Van Asperen. I've always liked the Van Asperen but, since I bought my new headphones, the Staier is always on my computer/iphone. I wonder if Staier is using the same harpsichord on which he recorded his Goldberg Variations?
Quote from: milk on July 30, 2011, 05:26:43 PM
I wonder if Staier is using the same harpsichord on which he recorded his Goldberg Variations?
Yes.
Sei Concerti "copy after Hieronymus Albrecht Hass, Hamburg 1734, built by Anthony Sidey and Frederic Bal, Paris 2004
Goldberg Variations: "Anthony Sidey harpsichord after Hass" but the liner notes devote a page to the harpsichord, and the fuller description there matches the description in Sei Concerti--and the notes also mention it's the same instrument used in two earlier recordings on HM (JSBach: Early Works and Hamburg 1734.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_nfuJssXyfeg/TVCPwkENg9I/AAAAAAAAAXI/dXAJSV8TAq4/s200/0761203956623%255B1%255D.jpg)
Leaving aside the Spanyi series, I also quite like this recording of CPE concertos by Ludger Rémy and Les Amis de Philippe. What I can't figure out are the two numbering systems used for CPE (wikipedia is no help in determining dates of works). Previously I had imagined that the concertos on the Remy recording along with the Hamburg concertos - sounding more Galant - were written earlier than some of the concertos Spanyi performs on the Tangent piano. But, looking at reviews (sadly, downloads come with no liner notes) I see that this is not the case. The Hamburgs just sound so buoyant and youthful as do the concertos on the Remy CD. The ones Remy performs have not yet appeared in the Spanyi series (unless I'm mistaken). Amazing how there seems to be an inexhaustible supply of CPE Bach concertos. I wonder when the next Spanyi recording is do out?
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 30, 2011, 05:46:59 PM
Yes.
Sei Concerti "copy after Hieronymus Albrecht Hass, Hamburg 1734, built by Anthony Sidey and Frederic Bal, Paris 2004
Goldberg Variations: "Anthony Sidey harpsichord after Hass" but the liner notes devote a page to the harpsichord, and the fuller description there matches the description in Sei Concerti--and the notes also mention it's the same instrument used in two earlier recordings on HM (JSBach: Early Works and Hamburg 1734.
Thanks Jeffrey. Great! I thought so!
Quote from: milk on July 30, 2011, 05:52:02 PM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_nfuJssXyfeg/TVCPwkENg9I/AAAAAAAAAXI/dXAJSV8TAq4/s200/0761203956623%255B1%255D.jpg)
Leaving aside the Spanyi series, I also quite like this recording of CPE concertos by Ludger Rémy and Les Amis de Philippe. What I can't figure out are the two numbering systems used for CPE (wikipedia is no help in determining dates of works). Previously I had imagined that the concertos on the Remy recording along with the Hamburg concertos - sounding more Galant - were written earlier than some of the concertos Spanyi performs on the Tangent piano. But, looking at reviews (sadly, downloads come with no liner notes) I see that this is not the case. The Hamburgs just sound so buoyant and youthful as do the concertos on the Remy CD. The ones Remy performs have not yet appeared in the Spanyi series (unless I'm mistaken). Amazing how there seems to be an inexhaustible supply of CPE Bach concertos. I wonder when the next Spanyi recording is do out?
Well, I can tell you for sure that the Hamburg Concerti are from 1772. IIRC, that was when he first moved there. You are quite right to think that the Wq #'s aren't chronological, since 43 is a rather low number indeed. They are arranged by genre, but even within the genre I don't think they are in order.
As Toñito pointed out this morning in his post on W. Friedemann Bach, CPE wrote over 50 concertos for keyboard. I notice that Spanyi records works that they have decided to call sonatina, and yet they are accompanied to the point of being a concerto also. Their numbers are in the low 100's. If one therefore counts those as concerti too (they sound like it to me) then the number would run to
well over 50! I haven't heard anything about the next Spanyi either. I am ready for it though. :)
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Now playing:
Concilium musicum Wien \ Angerer "auf Originalinstrumenten" - Hob 01 007 Symphony in C 4th mvmt - Finale: Allegro
Interesting tidbits from an interview with Spanyi found here:
http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2011/06/22/miklos-spanyi-on-mozarts-other-father-a-review-and-interview-with-the-c-p-e-bach-specialist/
MS: Let's see, we still have three CDs to do, 18, 19 and 20. We will end up with 20 not 19. We couldn't spread the tracks properly to fit on only one CD, so we will have to do two. As to how many volumes of solo pieces are left to record, there's still a long way to go. It will probably take another 15 to 20 CDs to finish this collection...
SSM: What are your plans for the coming year?
MS: A few concerts in France in the beginning of August, but my biggest project for this year is recording the next volume of C. P. E. Bach's concerti. We hope to record a CD in November or December.
SSM: Will this be with your previous group, Opus X?
MS: Unfortunately, no. Due to some very serious financial problems, we can no longer work with the Opus X ensemble. The rest of the series will have to be done in Budapest with the Concerto Armonico, but this is not the same group of musicians I played with 10 years ago. I plan on recreating this ensemble by gathering together some friends and colleagues. I am just reusing the name, Concerto Armonico. I hope this project will succeed.
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 30, 2011, 06:05:41 PM
Well, I can tell you for sure that the Hamburg Concerti are from 1772. IIRC, that was when he first moved there. You are quite right to think that the Wq #'s aren't chronological, since 43 is a rather low number indeed. They are arranged by genre, but even within the genre I don't think they are in order.
As Toñito pointed out this morning in his post on W. Friedemann Bach, CPE wrote over 50 concertos for keyboard. I notice that Spanyi records works that they have decided to call sonatina, and yet they are accompanied to the point of being a concerto also. Their numbers are in the low 100's. If one therefore counts those as concerti too (they sound like it to me) then the number would run to well over 50! I haven't heard anything about the next Spanyi either. I am ready for it though. :)
8)
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Now playing:
Concilium musicum Wien \ Angerer "auf Originalinstrumenten" - Hob 01 007 Symphony in C 4th mvmt - Finale: Allegro
Thanks for the reply Gurn! So they're kind of late? I always took them for being early. However, it is true that Spanyi records earlier works on harpsichord and fortepiano and later works on the Tangent?
I don't get it...does it seem like 20 will be enough to finish the series? I guess Mr. Spanyi means that the next one will be a double cd? Interesting that Opus X is being ditched.
Quote from: milk on July 30, 2011, 06:20:36 PM
Thanks for the reply Gurn! So they're kind of late? I always took them for being early. However, it is true that Spanyi records earlier works on harpsichord and fortepiano and later works on the Tangent?
I don't get it...does it seem like 20 will be enough to finish the series? I guess Mr. Spanyi means that the next one will be a double cd? Interesting that Opus X is being ditched.
Yes, I would say pretty late, I have never seen a complete, chronological list of all of them, but just by the year 1772, I'm thinking pretty late.
I take the tangent to be the middle period works and the fortepiano to be the late period ones. The Tangentenflügel had a rather limited lifespan, as nearly as I can discern from about 1740 to 1760 or so. There is so little available (to me) literature on it that it is hard to say. But it seemingly was derivative of the clavichord, and pretty much supplanted by the fortepiano once that instrument took hold. The harpsichord lived on until the late 1790's, but the tangent piano didn't. Too bad, really, I quite enjoy the sound. :)
Well, on other4 business, I recently was in touch with BIS, and in the course of the conversation I was told that they are having a rough go of it right now. Certainly I hope it is temporary and not terminal, but I can see where it would affect long-range projects like this one. :-\
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Now playing:
Manfred Huss - Haydn Sinfonietta Wien Miah Persson - Hob 24b 01 Aria for Soprano "Costretta a piangere"
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 30, 2011, 06:28:47 PM
Yes, I would say pretty late, I have never seen a complete, chronological list of all of them, but just by the year 1772, I'm thinking pretty late.
I take the tangent to be the middle period works and the fortepiano to be the late period ones. The Tangentenflügel had a rather limited lifespan, as nearly as I can discern from about 1740 to 1760 or so. There is so little available (to me) literature on it that it is hard to say. But it seemingly was derivative of the clavichord, and pretty much supplanted by the fortepiano once that instrument took hold. The harpsichord lived on until the late 1790's, but the tangent piano didn't. Too bad, really, I quite enjoy the sound. :)
Well, on other4 business, I recently was in touch with BIS, and in the course of the conversation I was told that they are having a rough go of it right now. Certainly I hope it is temporary and not terminal, but I can see where it would affect long-range projects like this one. :-\
8)
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Now playing:
Manfred Huss - Haydn Sinfonietta Wien Miah Persson - Hob 24b 01 Aria for Soprano "Costretta a piangere"
I understand what you're saying about the fortepiano and Tangent piano. But doesn't it seem like Spanyi recorded some older concertos on an early fortepiano (maybe the 4th and 5th recordings in the series?) and later concertos on the tangent?
I hope all goes well with BIS. I'm really on a journey with Miklose Spanyi now and I'd like to see it through until the end. I didn't love C.P.E. immediately. It grew on me slowly. Now, i've got about 24 hours worth of C.P.E. Bach on my hard-drive. It's hard to explain to people. Everyone knows Bach, Beethoven and Mozart, but I get a lot of blank stares when I mention C.P.E. Anyway, I love this series.
Quote from: milk on July 30, 2011, 06:07:15 PM
Interesting tidbits from an interview with Spanyi found here:
http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2011/06/22/miklos-spanyi-on-mozarts-other-father-a-review-and-interview-with-the-c-p-e-bach-specialist/
MS: Let's see, we still have three CDs to do, 18, 19 and 20. We will end up with 20 not 19. We couldn't spread the tracks properly to fit on only one CD, so we will have to do two. As to how many volumes of solo pieces are left to record, there's still a long way to go. It will probably take another 15 to 20 CDs to finish this collection...
SSM: What are your plans for the coming year?
MS: A few concerts in France in the beginning of August, but my biggest project for this year is recording the next volume of C. P. E. Bach's concerti. We hope to record a CD in November or December.
SSM: Will this be with your previous group, Opus X?
MS: Unfortunately, no. Due to some very serious financial problems, we can no longer work with the Opus X ensemble. The rest of the series will have to be done in Budapest with the Concerto Armonico, but this is not the same group of musicians I played with 10 years ago. I plan on recreating this ensemble by gathering together some friends and colleagues. I am just reusing the name, Concerto Armonico. I hope this project will succeed.
Thank you for that interesting interview link with Spanyi, of whom I'm a fan. CPE Bach is very interesting indeed!
I recently heard his
Die Auferstehung und Himmelfarht Jesu and was seriously blown away.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61S8O2gnkuL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Just got the new one:
(http://i.prs.to/t_200/bisbiscd1763.jpg)
I liked 21, but was underwhelmed by the pieces on 22. I'm really interested in 23. It's got Bach's fantasias and Solfeggios. Ok, I don't know
what a Solfeggio is (anybody?), but this seems to be the sweet spot for me when it comes to C.P.E.: His more improvisational sounding music. It's brand new
and I'm really enjoying it. I love this series. I can't wait for the next concerto recording!
Quote from: Leo K on July 31, 2011, 07:13:14 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61S8O2gnkuL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I have the Hermann Max recording of this. Don't remember much about it, so I really must give it a spin!
Quote from: milk on December 06, 2011, 03:10:45 AM
Just got the new one:
(http://i.prs.to/t_200/bisbiscd1763.jpg)
I liked 21, but was underwhelmed by the pieces on 22. I'm really interested in 23. It's got Bach's fantasias and Solfeggios. Ok, I don't know
what a Solfeggio is (anybody?), but this seems to be the sweet spot for me when it comes to C.P.E.: His more improvisational sounding music. It's brand new and I'm really enjoying it. I love this series. I can't wait for the next concerto recording!
Hi
Milk - this is an amazing effort by Spanyi & BIS - up to Vol. 22 on the solo works & Vol. 17 on the keyboard concertos, according to the BIS website HERE (http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=people&nextShow=0&sokText=2356);
Que has been commenting positively on this ongoing series for a long time - so far, I've just bought 1 disc (embarrassing!) - I must be waiting for a 'small' box to be released? :) Dave
Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 06, 2011, 06:34:08 AM
Hi Milk - this is an amazing effort by Spanyi & BIS - up to Vol. 22 on the solo works & Vol. 17 on the keyboard concertos, according to the BIS website HERE (http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=people&nextShow=0&sokText=2356); Que has been commenting positively on this ongoing series for a long time - so far, I've just bought 1 disc (embarrassing!) - I must be waiting for a 'small' box to be released? :) Dave
One would think there would be a box at some point!
I want to listen to some of CPE Bach's keyboard sonatas, I stumbled upon this Spanyi recording on spotify... I wanted to know if it's worth a shot or I should spend my time with other artists:
[asin]B004H38WV0[/asin]
Spanyi performs on the clavichord.
Quote from: DavidW on March 10, 2012, 08:35:48 AM
I want to listen to some of CPE Bach's keyboard sonatas, I stumbled upon this Spanyi recording on spotify... I wanted to know if it's worth a shot or I should spend my time with other artists:
[asin]B004H38WV0[/asin]
Spanyi performs on the clavichord.
That is definitely worth it! I have about 15 vols. of this series, and Spanyi does amazing work for these sonatas. LOVE the sound of the clavichord.
Quote from: Leo K on March 10, 2012, 08:44:15 AM
That is definitely worth it! I have about 15 vols. of this series, and Spanyi does amazing work for these sonatas. LOVE the sound of the clavichord.
Wow that's a super enthusiastic endorsement! :D Alright it goes onto my listening queue. :)
Quote from: Leo K on March 10, 2012, 08:44:15 AM
That is definitely worth it! I have about 15 vols. of this series, and Spanyi does amazing work for these sonatas. LOVE the sound of the clavichord.
Ditto. I have a few of the sonatas disks and all of the concertos disks in these series and haven't been disappointed yet. As you say, his clavichord is especially nice sounding. :)
8)
I didn't even know that CPE Bach wrote so much keyboard music!
Quote from: DavidW on March 10, 2012, 09:00:06 AM
I didn't even know that CPE Bach wrote so much keyboard music!
Oh? Look here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Carl_Philipp_Emanuel_Bach
It is what we cruder types call a pisspot full. :)
8)
Wow it looks like an output similar to Scarlatti. And he defn. wrote more than his father, unless you also include organ music.
Quote from: DavidW on March 10, 2012, 09:00:06 AM
I didn't even know that CPE Bach wrote so much keyboard music!
That series is exceptional. From my reading C.P.E. Bach was a very important composer in his time, I think one of the most famous and successul. He is also one of my personal favorites (see my list of 25) and I am a little confused why his music is not given more attention these days.
:)
Quote from: Arnold on March 10, 2012, 04:39:24 PM
I am a little confused why his music is not given more attention these days.
:)
It is baffling indeed!
Quote from: DavidW on March 10, 2012, 09:00:06 AM
I didn't even know that CPE Bach wrote so much keyboard music!
David - yep,
Que has also been lauding those
Spanyi recordings for quite a while - just now check the BIS website (HERE (http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=people&pID=2356)), and he is up to about 30 volumes of the keyboard concertos (7) and the sonatas (23) - WOW! I have just 3 discs of CPE Bach's keyboard works which includes one of the BIS solo recordings - kind of waiting for a BIG BOX to appear but not sure if or when? Dave :)
Addendum: Well, just checking Amazon which lists more volumes for the concertos, so the BIS listing may be incomplete!
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 11, 2012, 08:18:13 AM
David - yep, Que has also been lauding those Spanyi recordings for quite a while - just now check the BIS website (HERE (http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=people&pID=2356)), and he is up to about 30 volumes of the keyboard concertos (7) and the sonatas (23) - WOW! I have just 3 discs of CPE Bach's keyboard works which includes one of the BIS solo recordings - kind of waiting for a BIG BOX to appear but not sure if or when? Dave :)
Addendum: Well, just checking Amazon which lists more volumes for the concertos, so the BIS listing may be incomplete!
I have 16 of the concerto sets, Dave. I don't know if another has been issued since... :-\ I know it isn't complete yet, because at the least the Hamburg Concertos haven't been done yet. :)
8)
Wow little did I know there was a Spanyi fan club here! ;D
I am liking the music. I had to get back used to the quiet sound of the clavichord. The music is easy on the ear but it sounds more complex than the usual galant fair. The sonatas are of such quality that I could easily confuse him with Haydn or Mozart, though CPE Bach does have a different style.
Quote from: DavidW on March 11, 2012, 08:53:59 AM
Wow little did I know there was a Spanyi fan club here! ;D
I am liking the music. I had to get back used to the quiet sound of the clavichord. The music is easy on the ear but it sounds more complex than the usual galant fair. The sonatas are of such quality that I could easily confuse him with Haydn or Mozart, though CPE Bach does have a different style.
Yeah, he is pretty much his own man stylistically. I have seen it ventured that he maybe had a big part in devising "sonata form", but personally I find most of his work to be on the lines of fantasia, even the ones he calls 'sonata'. Haydn does give him a lot of credit as an influence, but I think it is more on the true nature of the keyboard than on how to make a sonata, so to speak. :)
8)
Quote from: DavidW on March 11, 2012, 08:53:59 AM
Wow little did I know there was a Spanyi fan club here! ;D
I am liking the music. I had to get back used to the quiet sound of the clavichord. The music is easy on the ear but it sounds more complex than the usual galant fair. The sonatas are of such quality that I could easily confuse him with Haydn or Mozart, though CPE Bach does have a different style.
I'm also a fan of the Spanyi recordings - both the solo and concerto cycles. I'm kind of wondering when another concerto recording is going to appear. I also wonder why CPE hasn't seemed to have received his due. CPE's music certainly has a unique quality. I guess we can console ourselves with the knowledge that, as far as I've read, he was acclaimed during his life. I'd also like to plug his Gamba and violin sonatas. Here are two great recordings:
(http://www.rockian.biz/atma/graphics/2313.jpg) (http://www.classical.net/music/recs/images/w/win10140.jpg)
As for CPE, here's a nice looking set on Zig Zag. Anyone heard it?
[asin]B000BNTAHA[/asin]
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 11, 2012, 05:48:45 AM
As for CPE, here's a nice looking set on Zig Zag. Anyone heard it?
I've heard the bird (or an original instrument just like him).
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 11, 2012, 05:48:45 AM
As for CPE, here's a nice looking set on Zig Zag. Anyone heard it?
[asin]B000BNTAHA[/asin]
Oh sure, we've discussed it here a few times. At least 3 of us have that disk and think it's the cat's ass. Amandine Beyer is a very fine fiddler indeed. She is a protege of Chiara Bianchini of Ensemble 415 and it shows in her style. :)
8)
Quote from: karlhenning on April 11, 2012, 06:06:22 AM
I've heard the bird (or an original instrument just like him).
Weaving trouble's braids... (in a Tom Waits growl)
;D
Hey, but if you knew how fond I am of birds . . . .
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 13, 2012, 12:11:08 PM
The first sonata has just ended, but I'm ready to apply for membership in the cat's a** brigade. This is just what I was looking for. The Hummel will have to wait for fun money to be freed up, but it's on my wishlist. And I already adore the Immerseel/Seiler Mozart set, so it looks like I'm hungry for HIP in this area.
[asin]B000BNTAHA[/asin]
Ah! I thought you would like that one. It's a peach. So many great disks out there that even the hardcore music-lovers have never even heard of. BTW, I really like that Immerseel/Seiler set too. I am blessed with a plenitude of Mozart PI VS's, although not burned out on them yet by any means. But there are certainly others out there to hear, as that Hummel demonstrates. :)
8)
PS - But how many of them are fronted by a parrot-in-a-blizzard? :D
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 13, 2012, 12:27:23 PM
But how many of them are fronted by a parrot-in-a-blizzard? :D
Zig Zig's presentation is
precious, to be sure, but they've put out some zingers, including seminal sets by Ensemble Musica Nova of motets et al. by Machaut and Dufay. Material not up your street, Gurn, but I've come to expect good things behind those
gauche designs!
BRO will be sending along to me directly
Herrn Professor Gellerts Geistliche Oden und Lieder,
[asin]B000641ZCC[/asin]
of which the following:
QuoteThe term Lied is generally associated with songs for voice and piano by German composers of the 19th century, like Franz Schubert and Robert Schumann. But they didn't invent the Lied - they were part of a tradition which goes back to the middle of the 18th century. And even the composers of those days didn't invent the solo song - the first songs for solo voice on German text date from the early 17th century, as Johann Nauwach published his Teutsche Villanellen in 1627.
At the end of the 17th century the solo song disappeared, mainly due to the growing popularity of the Italian chamber cantata. In the 1730's attempts were made to bring the genre to life again, but to no avail because of a lack of quality. The first important collection of solo songs was Telemann's Oden of 1741. It was the new esthetic ideal of the Enlightenment that music should be 'simple' and 'natural' which proved to be an ideal breeding ground for the solo song. It is no surprise, then, that composers and poets who represented the German Enlightenment made attempts to recreate this genre. Among them were poets like Gleim, Kleist, Lessing and Schlegel, and composers like Agricola, the Graun brothers, Quantz, Franz Benda and Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach.
There were lively and extensive talks between these poets and composers. One of the subjects was the relationship between text and music. There was general agreement that the text was the main part of a song and that the music was a way of interpreting the text. In the preface to his collection of the Geistliche Oden und Lieder (Sacred Odes and Songs) on texts of Christian Fürchtegott Gellert, Bach expresses this ideal thus: "One knows that didactic odes are not as convenient for music as songs for the heart; however, when the former are as beautiful as Mr. Gellert writes them, then one finds that one has a pleasant occupation in contributing all that is possible in order that the intention with which they were written be facilitated and consequently the benefits to be obtained from them be rendered more general."
Gellert (1715-1769), born as son of a pastor in Saxony, went to Leipzig in 1734 to study theology, but it was mainly literature which received his attention. In 1744 he wrote a dissertation about the history of the fable. As in 1751 Leipzig University appointed him Associate Professor of Poetry, Rhetoric and Morals, he became one of Germany's most influential poets for about twenty years. His lectures attracted large audiences, among them Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, who wrote: "The admiration and affection enjoyed by Gellert from all young people was extraordinary".
His collection Geistliche Lieder und Oden, published in 1757, enjoyed a wide circulation. Some of his songs made their entrance in hymnals in Germany, like 'Jesus lebt, mit ihm auch ich' (Osterlied). When Bach set his texts to music, Gellert was startled at first, as he thought Bach's settings were too sophisticated for the texts, which he had written for a wide audience. "They are beautiful, but too beautiful for a singer who is not musical". Bach very much liked Gellert's texts. He re-used some of them in cantatas (for example the Weihnachtslied Auf, schicke dich recht feierlich) and others were arranged for a vocal ensemble (like Bitten - Gott, deine Güte reicht so weit).
Unlike the solo songs written in the 17th and the first half of the 18th century, which were all set for voice with basso continuo, Bach and other composers - like those mentioned above - provided their songs with a part for keyboard. In his preface he states about the performance: "I have added the necessary harmony and ornaments to my melodies. In this way I have not wanted to leave them up to the arbitrariness of a stiff basso continuo player, and one can thus at the same time use them as hand pieces." With 'hand pieces' (Handstücke) Bach means that the songs can be performed as pieces for keyboard solo. He adds that this way these songs can also be played when the vocal parts are too difficult to sing. This demonstrates that these songs were composed for both Kenner (professional musicians) and Liebhaber (amateurs). As these settings are all strophic, the connection between text and music couldn't be too strong. In line with this the keyboard part is mostly about creating an atmosphere, for example in the introduction and the epilogue - it is not too far-fetched to see a parallel with Schubert's songs here.
In Dorothee Mields and Ludger Rémy these songs have found their ideal interpreters. The very delicate voice of Dorothee Mields is excellently suited to this repertoire. Her diction is immaculate - even without looking at the lyrics in the booklet one can understand every word. All nuances in the text are clearly exposed, and Ms Mields always finds the right way to bring the message across. She also takes some liberties when the text requires some special accents, and her ornamentation is always appropriate. Ludger Rémy very effectively uses the fortepiano to enhance the atmosphere of every song and to support the voice. He has previously recorded Bach's songs with the bass Klaus Mertens (CPO 999 549-2 and 999708-2). Here again he proves to be a most sensitive interpreter of this repertoire.
These songs show a side of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach which in general isn't paid much attention to. There are no strong dramatic contrasts here, but a rather introverted expression of personal faith, as Bach expresses in his preface: "I have in particular made these songs more generally useful to lovers of music and have wanted in this way to give them occasion to edify themselves." I strongly recommend anyone to use that occasion.
Johan van Veen (© 2005)
Anyone know it?
(http://www.fishfinemusic.com.au/product_images/v/595/36020__95738_std.jpg)
Finally, the new Spanyi C.P.E. concerto recording is out. This recording contains the first four of the famous series of six concertos. It's interesting to have this as a contrast to Staier's award winning recording from last year. I'd like to hear people's opinions. By my uneducated ear, I'm getting that Spanyi displays quite a different musical interpretation of these works. I can only write generally, but the tempos are much slower and the harpsichord, and perhaps the horns, are much more in the foreground here. The orchestra also sounds "heavier" - but I'm not sure that Armonico is actually bigger than Freiburger Barockorchester. It conveys quite a different feeling. I'm very pleased so far. The harpsichord, a copy of a 1745 Belgian instrument, is the sweetest sounding harpsichord that I've heard Spanyi use in this series yet. I'm interested to see what other more musically knowledgeable commentators in this forum think.
CPE Bach is, along with Boccherini, one of the most underrated giants of classical music. The whole Spanyi series is a treasure trove. I have been waiting for BIS to issue a Big Box for a few years now, not knowing how many discs would be involved, and not knowing what issues the company is facing. From what I read here it may take a while - if it ever happens :-\
My take on why CPE grows on one : his melodies are very bold, using wide intervals to spectacular use. Good themes, sometimes strange harmonies and dramatic gestures create a very particular mix where themes are the expressive device. In classical era music it's more their transformation and development that carries expressive significance. That's the best I can do to explain it.
Quote from: André on July 16, 2012, 03:39:39 PM
CPE Bach is, along with Boccherini, one of the most underrated giants of classical music. The whole Spanyi series is a treasure trove. I have been waiting for BIS to issue a Big Box for a few years now, not knowing how many discs would be involved, and not knowing what issues the company is facing. From what I read here it may take a while - if it ever happens :-\
My take on why CPE grows on one : his melodies are very bold, using wide intervals to spectacular use. Good themes, sometimes strange harmonies and dramatic gestures create a very particular mix where themes are the expressive device. In classical era music it's more their transformation and development that carries expressive significance. That's the best I can do to explain it.
Do you have the Staier recording? If you get to it, I'd like to see a comparison between Staier and the new Spanyi release. Maybe it's just that the Spanyi is new and so different, but I find myself more stimulated by what Spanyi has done here. However, I haven't gone back and listened closely enough to make a fair comparison. Staier is very brisk and angular; Spanyi is heavier and more sentimental - maybe.
Not sure which Staier recording you are referring to ? The only one I have is Archiv 419256-2 with concertos for 2 harpsichords by CPE (W.46), and WF Bach. It's conducted by Goebel and Musica Antiqua Köln. Of the Spanyi discs I own 10 discs of either solo or concertante works.
Spanyi is indeed more overtly emotional, a quality I think suits CPE Bach's music admirably.
I adore CPE and love that Spanyi BIS series, though I sofar have resisted to buy a lot of the issues.
Just the bargains that came along - hoping for box sets... :-\
Anyway, did you guys realize that Pieter-Jan Belder recently did some CPE? Anyone checked it out yet? :)
[asin]B006YXGU2O[/asin]
Q
Quote from: André on July 18, 2012, 07:27:04 PM
Not sure which Staier recording you are referring to ? The only one I have is Archiv 419256-2 with concertos for 2 harpsichords by CPE (W.46), and WF Bach. It's conducted by Goebel and Musica Antiqua Köln. Of the Spanyi discs I own 10 discs of either solo or concertante works.
Spanyi is indeed more overtly emotional, a quality I think suits CPE Bach's music admirably.
I mean this one:
(http://www.biberfan.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Screen-Shot-2012-02-12-at-11.18.15-PM.png)
It won a gramophone award. It's a good contrast to the new Spanyi.
Quote from: Annie on July 19, 2012, 12:08:05 AM
it's an amazing recording i think. freiburg baroque should be one of the best ensembles these days, would you agree?
I loved it when I got it but now I'm stuck on the new Spanyi. I think my OCD causes me trouble with holding two things in my head at once. It might be a while before I can focus on the Staier again. But it interests me how different the approach is. I expect I'll come to see the merits of both visions. Freiburg is really brisk and energetic and Staier employs an interesting, sharp-toned instrument. I'm just comparing the Tempo di minuetto movement of the fourth concerto. Freiburg really is great; the soloist (Staier) and the orchestra really flow into each other. Interesting also that the new Spanyi has only the first 4 on it. I wonder with what Spanyi will pair the final 2.
Quote from: Annie on July 19, 2012, 12:59:53 AM
i want to say h453, h408 and h410 :)
Wow! You really know the repertoire! Your comment made me look into what I have of Freiburger. I found Haydn and Mozart concertos (Staier). Now I've downloaded Bezuidenhout's/Freiburger's Mendelssohn (also inspired by your praise of Freiburger). But I'd better finish up on-topic: I'm looking forward to seeing if you are right! However, I notice H. 410 in my library as a double-concerto already done by Spanyi? Now, as a fan only (not musically educated), I only know my recordings, not the repertoire as you seem to, but what about the concertos recorded by Remy a few years back (H.478, H.405, H477)? For some reason, those seem to stand out (as do the 6 in question here) as less complex than some of CPE's other works? Also a possible match? But I'm not sure I know what I'm talking about.
Quote from: Annie on July 19, 2012, 02:02:15 AM
the genre i love and listen to most is piano/keyboard concerto.
i don't know why i scribbed wq 47 as h 409 to my notes. i corrected it now. i meant the one he didn't. :) http://www.cpebach.org/toc/toc-III-10.html you are right 409 is on his 2nd volume.
actually, i haven't heard remy's recording. i might have 405 by spanyi. i don't think there was anything special. but i'll listen to it today again.
i might say that i only know my recordings too but i'm close to 10000 cds. ;)
the ones i included in my casual listening list are wq23, wq26, wq31, wq43/2, wq47, which means they are my favorites
These are nice. If I'm not mistaken, wq. 47 is a double concerto for harpsichord and fortepiano. There is a wonderful recording of this by Musica Antiqua Köln, with Reinhard Goebel and Robert Hill on keyboards. Perhaps you have the same one.
Quote from: Annie on July 19, 2012, 03:08:38 AM
lately, i prefer this one http://www.warnerclassics.com/release,DoubleConcertosbyJSBachandhissons_5440.htm
the instruments' timbre differences creates a very charming contrast i guess. i think this might be one of the most exciting of the classical era
Thanks!
Quote from: André on July 16, 2012, 03:39:39 PMThe whole Spanyi series is a treasure trove. I have been waiting for BIS to issue a Big Box for a few years now, not knowing how many discs would be involved, and not knowing what issues the company is facing. From what I read here it may take a while - if it ever happens :-\
Congratulations!! From http://www.ensemblemimage.com/en/news :
"This enormous CD project will come to an end in 2014, when the complete series will be issued for the 300 years anniversary of the composer, Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach!"
Wow ! There's already 43 discs out there and the web site mentions that the séries are 'to be continued' :o. I didn't think there would be so many. I hope that BIS offers it at a special price ;D.
It's that time again!
(http://store.audiophile.ca/images/covers/300/36558.jpg)
Boy, a year ago there was some discussion about this KB series (both concertos & sonatas) - guess that I'm too lazy to look up the status of this project @ the moment - for those following more closely, has
Spanyi finished yet, and any chance of these numerous discs being packaged in at a reduced price? Thanks for any comments - Dave
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 11, 2012, 08:18:13 AM
David - yep, Que has also been lauding those Spanyi recordings for quite a while - just now check the BIS website (HERE (http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=people&pID=2356)), and he is up to about 30 volumes of the keyboard concertos (7) and the sonatas (23) - WOW! I have just 3 discs of CPE Bach's keyboard works which includes one of the BIS solo recordings - kind of waiting for a BIG BOX to appear but not sure if or when? Dave :)
Addendum: Well, just checking Amazon which lists more volumes for the concertos, so the BIS listing may be incomplete!
I've avoided the Keyboard Concerto series like the plague. They could offer it free. I'm not gonna fall for another integrale that's just going to gather dust (even if it's metaphorical dust on my hard drive). A 2-disc selection would be nice, though.
I don't know these concertos at all. Are there any with the harmonic richness of the Kenner und Liebhaber sonatas?
Quote from: Daverz on April 02, 2013, 04:21:58 PM
I've avoided the Keyboard Concerto series like the plague. They could offer it free. I'm not gonna fall for another integrale that's just going to gather dust (even if it's metaphorical dust on my hard drive). A 2-disc selection would be nice, though.
Hi
Dave - LOL! :D
I was called to dinner last night, so an abbreviated previous post; BUT, this morning looking on the BIS website,
Spanyi has recorded 25 volumes of the solo KB works & 19 of the concertos! Just checked my own CPE collection and I own 10 discs of these works (likes of
Pletnev, van Asperen, Remy, Staier, & Belder, so probably enough for me! Dave :)
I have most of the concerto recordings from this set and find them to be very rewarding listening.
Quite an interesting paper here, I thought, on the CPEB/Haydn relation and on the Kenner and Liebhaber sontatas, which IMO are major masterpieces.
http://www.classicstoday.com/features/cpebach.pdf
It seems everybody is rushing in to get a piece of the CPE cake.
Next up is a new recording by Christine Schornsheim:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0845221052014.jpg)
And she is playing....a Tangentenflugel! :o
Q
Robert von Bahr, CEO of BIS, makes this remark over at eClassical today about his CPE Bach solo music series: "We're now up to 29 and counting, with many volumes still to record - unlike another label that claims that their 26-CD-box (on modern piano) is a "complete" version."
Enjoying the taste of Hamburger - symphonies, that is:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51R8QPEoJeL._SX425_.jpg)
I got this largely based on a rave at Classics Today, and I think the rave is justified. The liner notes bill this as "18th century avant-garde," and it shows the usual CPE tendencies of zippiness, surprise, and sudden mood shifts. Very nice playing and sound.
I do not know this particular recording (have them cobbled together from several ensembles like the Freiburger Barockorchester etc), but the Hamburg string symphonies have long since been my favorite pieces of CPE. I also like some of the concertos and the 4 "big" orchestral symphonies with winds, but I really love the sudden turns and twists of those marvellous strings only pieces. Is Wolfram Christ the viola player (formerly Berlin Phil principal viola, I think?)
Quote from: Jo498 on January 08, 2015, 08:21:52 AM
. Is Wolfram Christ the viola player (formerly Berlin Phil principal viola, I think?)
Yes, that's him. Here's the review I mentioned:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Wolfram-Christ/Conductor/344026-3
I checked some of the sound samples and while they are very lively played I rather dislike the use of a modern piano as continuo. This sounds really strange to my ears. I think I am happier with the ones I have, a mix between Freiburger, Berliner Akademie and another one, all on period instruments with discreet harpsichord continuo, but similarly lively string playing. The main disadvantages is that they are not all on one disc, but mixed with concertos or other symphonies of CPE Bach's.
Quote from: Jo498 on January 08, 2015, 09:00:50 AM
I checked some of the sound samples and while they are very lively played I rather dislike the use of a modern piano as continuo. This sounds really strange to my ears.
Actually it is an 18th-century fortepiano. Maybe the sound samples are not clear enough.
Maybe some discussion on the fairly new 26-CD box of CPE Bach's solo piano works w/ Ana-Marija Markovina on a piano is in order? - I currently do not own this offering but have seen many positive comments from others, especially in the listening thread - received a 10/10 review by David Hurwitz reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=1187512) - I have about a dozen discs of his solo KB works, mostly Belder (8 total) on clavichord, harpsichord, or fortepiano - just a few CDs on a modern piano - now priced in the Amazon USA MP for $100 - seem to be worth a purchase and not sure if there is a 'cheaper' price around? Dave :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71l5AZCqGUL._SL1400_.jpg)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 08, 2015, 08:05:34 AM
Maybe some discussion on the fairly new 26-CD box of CPE Bach's solo piano works w/ Ana-Marija Markovina on a piano is in order? - I currently do not own this offering but have seen many positive comments from others, especially in the listening thread - received a 10/10 review by David Hurwitz reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=1187512) - I have about a dozen discs of his solo KB works, mostly Belder (8 total) on clavichord, harpsichord, or fortepiano - just a few CDs on a modern piano - now priced in the Amazon USA MP for $100 - seem to be worth a purchase and not sure if there is a 'cheaper' price around? Dave :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71l5AZCqGUL._SL1400_.jpg)
Amazon.fr MP at $60 (http://www.amazon.fr/C-P-E-Bach-Int%C3%A9grale-loeuvre-piano/dp/B00IGJP0Q6)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 08, 2015, 08:05:34 AM
Maybe some discussion on the fairly new 26-CD box of CPE Bach's solo piano works w/ Ana-Marija Markovina on a piano is in order? - I currently do not own this offering but have seen many positive comments from others, especially in the listening thread - received a 10/10 review by David Hurwitz reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=1187512) - I have about a dozen discs of his solo KB works, mostly Belder (8 total) on clavichord, harpsichord, or fortepiano - just a few CDs on a modern piano - now priced in the Amazon USA MP for $100 - seem to be worth a purchase and not sure if there is a 'cheaper' price around? Dave :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71l5AZCqGUL._SL1400_.jpg)
Superlative set, playing, sound, music. I have a few cds of others playing CPE, and am glad to have the period recordings too, but if I had to choose I'd choose this.
Thanks Peter & Ken - I went ahead yesterday and ordered the box from Amazon USA MP - had $18 of points on my VISA card, total was $80 from the Classical Music Superstore in Tennessee, so a quick and short shipping distance for me in NC - looking forward to listening to these works; nearly all of my dozen or so other CDs of this music is on harpsichord, fortepiano, or clavichord. Dave :)
Can you rec0mmend me THE CPE work that will convert me?
Quote from: snyprrr on February 09, 2015, 07:20:17 AM
Can you rec0mmend me THE CPE work that will convert me?
Well, his mother wrote the St Matthew Passion. Does that count?
Ty the Double Concerto for piano and harpsichord.
Quote from: snyprrr on February 09, 2015, 07:20:17 AM
Can you rec0mmend me THE CPE work that will convert me?
BOY - CPE Bach was one of the most prolific composers of the 18th century - check out this SITE (http://www.cpebach.org)!
Now he wrote a LOT of solo and chamber works, but don't believe there is a
String Quartet for you - ;) He did write much music for 3 and 4 instruments (especially the flute since his boss enjoyed playing that instrument) - but, if you want one disc to start that includes a violin & cello, try the
Piano Trios - Dave :)
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-WgrGq2R/0/O/Bach_CPE_Trios.jpg)
I emailed BIS to find out if they planned to issue the Spanyi recordings in a big box. I got the answer: no :'(
Dear Mr. ........,
Thank you for your e-mail! I am sorry to say that we are not planning to release a box with Spanyi's Concertos or Solo Keyboard recordings of CPE Bach's music.
With best wishes,
Elin Winberg
André ....... skrev den 2015-02-08 18:52:
Hello ! Will there be a Big Box of Spanyi's CPE Bach ? I hope so !
Thanks in advance !
André ..........
Canada
[/i]
New! :)
(https://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5028421948218.jpg)
Haenchen is not known for his HIP credentials, but would this be a HIP ensemble as the name seems to suggest? ::)
Q
Not new, from the 1980s. They are pretty good (I think I have one half of the set shown in a different issue) but modern chamber orchestra. They were on Berlin Classics or Capriccio, the chamber orchestra was an East Berlin Ensemble, I think.
Quote from: Jo498 on June 13, 2015, 05:33:43 AM
Not new, from the 1980s. They are pretty good (I think I have one half of the set shown in a different issue) but modern chamber orchestra. They were on Berlin Classics or Capriccio, the chamber orchestra was an East Berlin Ensemble, I think.
Ahh, a reissue. ... that explains it. Thanks for the info! :)
There are at least 3 earlier issues on Capriccio (singles and twofer) as well as on "Phoenix" of these recordings.
On Berlin Classics there is another disc with five earlier "Berlin" symphonies by Haenchen and the eponymous ensemble. (And this one had been already on a Brilliant "Bach sons" 7-disc-box which I own, so I was wrong and have not heard the symphonies on the re-issue above.)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/719ydGUb5GL._SL500_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81RfGQYCtxL._SL500_.jpg)
What do folks think of this set?
All I own is a single CD of the Cello concertos by Hugh on Naxos, the above set is cheap, and it seems to cover a lot of ground.
I have a couple of the single discs from this, and there's nothing on them that isn't first class.
Quote from: The new erato on January 03, 2016, 11:50:56 AM
I have a couple of the single discs from this, and there's nothing on them that isn't first class.
Good to know, thanks!
There are some things that are early/proto-HIP, e.g. disc 2 with 4 symphonies conducted by Richter on modern instruments and I have no idea who plays on the chamber music disc 5. discs 1 and 4 are with Pinnock I guess.
Besides the Richter I only have disc 3 which is fantastic.
If it's cheap, get it.
Quote from: Jo498 on January 03, 2016, 12:05:23 PM
There are some things that are early/proto-HIP, e.g. disc 2 with 4 symphonies conducted by Richter on modern instruments and I have no idea who plays on the chamber music disc 5. discs 1 and 4 are with Pinnock I guess.
Besides the Richter I only have disc 3 which is fantastic.
If it's cheap, get it.
Thanks!
The details on the discs (let me know if it changes your mind one way or another):
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91iZik3cytL._SL1500_.jpg)
As I said, the only discs I own and have heard are 2 and 3. The Richter is actually a quite passionate recording, apparently he did care about the music. And it seems it is the only one on modern instruments in that box.
I'd expect the rest to be at least pretty good. (I think the string symphonies and some concertos were also on a single disc each from "audior" or "blue" or some cheapo series but probably oop).
Maybe the historic keyboards on the last discs might sound more interesting than attractive but it probably was a pioneering recording as well.
While these are some of the best-known works of the composer, there are still not so many alternatives around, so it seems a very attractive package.
Thanks again, Jo!
I have now listened to about 70 % of the Brilliant Classics 30 CD boxset and I have absolutely loved it so far! I don't know why I have paid so little attention to C.P.E. Bach until now. I simply adore this "empfindsamer Stil" music.
The quality of the boxset has been good. I haven't encountared bad discs yet.
:)
Quote from: 71 dB on May 28, 2016, 11:46:33 AM
I have now listened to about 70 % of the Brilliant Classics 30 CD boxset and I have absolutely loved it so far! I don't know why I have paid so little attention to C.P.E. Bach until now. I simply adore this "empfindsamer Stil" music.
The quality of the boxset has been good. I haven't encountared bad discs yet.
Great to hear - :) I must return to my CPE Bach collection soon. Dave
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 28, 2016, 12:02:22 PM
Great to hear - :) I must return to my CPE Bach collection soon. Dave
0:)
Quote from: 71 dB on May 28, 2016, 11:46:33 AM
I have now listened to about 70 % of the Brilliant Classics 30 CD boxset and I have absolutely loved it so far! I don't know why I have paid so little attention to C.P.E. Bach until now. I simply adore this "empfindsamer Stil" music.
The quality of the boxset has been good. I haven't encountared bad discs yet.
:)
Yeah. I discovered him a few years ago, a bit before that box, and was bowled over by how good he is. He suffers from reputation rebound: he was praised over his own father for a time, so when that changed it went the other direction.
Moonfish and I are big fans of his keyboard music in the piano version by Markovina too.
Quote from: Ken B on May 28, 2016, 06:56:47 PM
Yeah. I discovered him a few years ago, a bit before that box, and was bowled over by how good he is. He suffers from reputation rebound: he was praised over his own father for a time, so when that changed it went the other direction.
Moonfish and I are big fans of his keyboard music in the piano version by Markovina too.
The funny thing is CPE Bach isn't a new discovery for me. I have enjoyed his music almost two decades, but never really believed myself how good of a composer he was and never really explored his music. I told myself: Why use my time and money on him when I can use my time and money on his father. CPE Bach is considered a "transitional" composer (stupid, but that's how it is.) and is easily overlooked.
Some people dislike the sound of clavichord, but I find if fascinating.
Quote from: 71 dB on May 28, 2016, 11:46:33 AM
I have now listened to about 70 % of the Brilliant Classics 30 CD boxset and I have absolutely loved it so far! I don't know why I have paid so little attention to C.P.E. Bach until now. I simply adore this "empfindsamer Stil" music.
The quality of the boxset has been good. I haven't encountared bad discs yet.
:)
What music in empfindsamer Stil have you found . Where I'm coming from is this: apart from some solo keyboard music, I've failed to find the other empfindsamer Stil music he wrote, can you help?
Quote from: Mandryka on May 28, 2016, 11:42:13 PM
What music in empfindsamer Stil have you found . Where I'm coming from is this: apart from some solo keyboard music, I've failed to find the other empfindsamer Stil music he wrote, can you help?
Frankly, I don't know how to help you. Sorry. If you are not into CPE Bach then move on.
?? I think you misread his question. He wasn't putting down C.P.E. Bach. He was saying he hasn't found another piece reflecting that style, and he was asking for advice. This might help?
https://bibliolore.org/2014/03/08/c-p-e-bachs-empfindsamer-stil/
Also, found a 2012 program note (for the Sinfonia in B-flat Major) by J. Michael Allsen that states: " . . . C.P.E. Bach's music is the finest example of the mid-18th-century German approach known as the Empfindsamer Stil ('sensitive style') music that seeks expression of emotion in a more natural way than the old Baroque style, with frequent shifts of mood. In his autobiography - written the same year as the work heard here - Bach wrote that: I believe that music must first and foremost stir the heart.
His ten symphonies, all written in the 1770s, while he was at Hamburg, are certainly fine examples of Empfindsamer Stil, . . . "
Quote from: Scion7 on May 29, 2016, 12:50:38 AM
?? I think you misread his question. He wasn't putting down C.P.E. Bach. He was saying he hasn't found another piece reflecting that style, and he was asking for advice. This might help?
https://bibliolore.org/2014/03/08/c-p-e-bachs-empfindsamer-stil/
Also, found a 2012 program note (for the Sinfonia in B-flat Major) by J. Michael Allsen that states: " . . . C.P.E. Bach's music is the finest example of the mid-18th-century German approach known as the Empfindsamer Stil ('sensitive style') music that seeks expression of emotion in a more natural way than the old Baroque style, with frequent shifts of mood. In his autobiography - written the same year as the work heard here - Bach wrote that: I believe that music must first and foremost stir the heart.
His ten symphonies, all written in the 1770s, while he was at Hamburg, are certainly fine examples of Empfindsamer Stil, . . . "
Well, I am not an expert of
empfindsamer Stil and I am definitely a newbie of CPE Bach's enourmous repertory despite the fact I have known some of his works for 2 decades. I am just a
musically uneducated moron enjoying CPE Bach and thinking
all of his works represents empfindsamer Stil. That's why I find the question odd.
I am not sure whether "empfindsamer Stil" is all that clearly delineated. The ten late Hamburg symphonies probably fit although they might be a little too "wild" for what many people (including me, but this might be because empfindsam has a slightly different meaning in today's German than in 1770) associate with "Empfindsamkeit".
Most of the time CPE can be a mix between his peculiar stormy/moody style, a more genial "style galante" and echoes from the "learned style" of his father (and probably a few more).
It is hard to pin him down and this is frustrating or irritating for some listeners (I know about a few at other fora who are generally fond of quite a bit of lesser known mid-late 18th century music but dislike CPE) and invigorating for others.
Did anyone explore the BIS series with Spanyi to a larger extent? they were to expensive for me but now jpc has a bunch of them in BIS midsummer sale
Vols. 1, 5,7,10,11 of the concerti
Vols. 4,8,10,12,14 of the solo pieces
Despite the sale I neither can nor want to afford all of those; any particular recommendations?
Furthermore: does anyone have the numbers of the handful of keyboard concerti that he later arranged for 'cello and flute respectively? I do have 3 cello concerti and 4 or 5 for flute but they received new Wq numbers, so I don't know the numbers of the keyboard versions.
I didn't mean to cause all this kerfuffle.
For me the paradigm of the sensitive style is the Kenner and Liebhaber sonatas, I've occasionally tried to find other music by him with the same unexpected mood changes and harmonies, but without success.
Did Spanyi record the Kenner and Liebhaber sonatas? If so which CD?
By the way, one thing which crossed my mind is the link (if any) between Scarlatti and CPEB - this week, listening to a piano recording of a Scarlatti sonata by Enrico Baiano, I couldn't help but think of the sensitive style. Others may disagree of course, I'm hardly an expert.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 29, 2016, 02:46:05 AMI didn't mean to cause all this kerfuffle.
No big deal. ;)
Quote from: Mandryka on May 29, 2016, 02:46:05 AMFor me the paradigm of the sensitive style is the Kenner and Liebhaber sonatas, I've occasionally tried to find other music by him with the same unexpected mood changes and harmonies, but without success.
Sounds like late works (Hamburg) by him are your cup of tea. Early stuff (Berlin) is less adventurous, because Frederick the Great had a conservative taste.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 29, 2016, 02:46:05 AMDid Spanyi record the Kenner and Liebhaber sonatas? If so which CD?
Looks like he has not recorded them yet.
Quote from: Scion7 on May 29, 2016, 12:50:38 AM
?? I think you misread his question. He wasn't putting down C.P.E. Bach. He was saying he hasn't found another piece reflecting that style, and he was asking for advice. This might help?
https://bibliolore.org/2014/03/08/c-p-e-bachs-empfindsamer-stil/
Also, found a 2012 program note (for the Sinfonia in B-flat Major) by J. Michael Allsen that states: " . . . C.P.E. Bach's music is the finest example of the mid-18th-century German approach known as the Empfindsamer Stil ('sensitive style') music that seeks expression of emotion in a more natural way than the old Baroque style, with frequent shifts of mood. In his autobiography - written the same year as the work heard here - Bach wrote that: I believe that music must first and foremost stir the heart.
His ten symphonies, all written in the 1770s, while he was at Hamburg, are certainly fine examples of Empfindsamer Stil, . . . "
Thanks for this. I wonder what the Haydn lovers think of these wacky Hamburg Symphonies Wq 182.
A few of the Hamburg string symphonies were among the first CPE Bach I encountered and they are still among my favorite pieces.
Haydn seems like a regular, well-behaved classicist compared to the quirkiness these string symphonies exhibit. They are also the pieces I'd recommend to snyppr; while no string quartets for a time it was not clear whether they were composed for solistic ensemble or small orchestra and the former was thought likely because of the difficulties.
As for the "Kenner & Liebhaber" Sonatas, I believe Spanyi recorded them as he recorded (or will be) virtually all keyboard pieces by CPE but they are not among the volumes included in the current sale. (I found that I have Vol.7 of the series and as I still don't really like the sound of the clavichord I am not in a hurry to get any more, I will probably get two vols. of the concertos instead)
I have now listened to the whole 30 CD "Edition" Brilliant Classics box set. My least favorite disc of the set is disc number 25: "Sacred songs" These are effectively CPE Bach's lieds and I'm not much of a lied man. Also, the 4 last discs "Sacret choral music I-IV" are disappointing in the way that CPE Bach completely pales compared to his father when it comes to cantatas. Cantatas weren't his thing. His Magnificat in D, Wq. 215 is however a great work and I have to say the short cantata "Heilig", Wq. 217 is good. Otherwise I found the cantatas boring.
CPE Bach's symphonies, concertos, chamber music and solo keyboard music is impressive. Now I know! :)
Quote from: 71 dB on June 05, 2016, 08:30:57 AM
I have now listened to the whole 30 CD "Edition" Brilliant Classics box set. My least favorite disc of the set is disc number 25: "Sacred songs" These are effectively CPE Bach's lieds and I'm not much of a lied man. Also, the 4 last discs "Sacret choral music I-IV" are disappointing in the way that CPE Bach completely pales compared to his father when it comes to cantatas. Cantatas weren't his thing. His Magnificat in D, Wq. 215 is however a great work and I have to say the short cantata "Heilig", Wq. 217 is good. Otherwise I found the cantatas boring.
CPE Bach's symphonies, concertos, chamber music and solo keyboard music is impressive. Now I know! :)
Glad that you enjoyed! :) Of all of CPE Bach's discs in my collection, the only 'vocal' CD that I own is the
Magnificat - NOW, as to his father, dozens of JS's choral works! Dave
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 05, 2016, 09:02:25 AM
Glad that you enjoyed! :) Of all of CPE Bach's discs in my collection, the only 'vocal' CD that I own is the Magnificat - NOW, as to his father, dozens of JS's choral works! Dave
Thanks Dave. :) Looks like your one and only C.P.E. Bach vocal CD is the right choice (given the performance is good that is).
Who doesn't have tons of J.S. Bach's choral works/cantatas? ;)
Earlier posted on the listening thread:
[asin]B019G8SRF6[/asin]
Now my impressions are more settled some of my impresions.
The main drawback here is the overalll soundpicture, for two reasons:
1. The instrument, a pianoforte by Kerstin Zchwarz after a 1749 Silbermann, has been recorded too spaciously - either by too much distance or a too large or too resonant space.
2. The instrument has been ill prepared. If you listen closely, you will notice that one of the strings keeps on resonating long after the key was struck. This produces a distracting "zing" throughout the performance, particularly noticeable during the pauses..
This kind of spoils an admirable performance of delightful music by a brilliant performer.
Why Brilliant, why? ??? Such a waste....
Even still, I find the recording still enjoyable and ultimately it wouldn't deter me from playing it.
But it could better... :(
Q
I find the lists of works by CPE Bach confusing. With his dad, we have BWV numbering, but with CPE we have Wq and H numbering. CPE also made flute concertos of his keyboard concertos and what's not. It does not help he was very prolific. Frankly, I don't know how to explore him further.
If I am correct I have all of his symphonies except Berlin Symphony in D Major, Wq 176 missing in the Brilliant Classics box set.
Really annoying how Wq and H numbering are used. Sometimes both, sometimes not. Brilliant Classics and http://cpebach.org/ don't even agree about everything! Flute concertos got me cratching my head! H 416, H 484.1, Wq 169 Wq 166, 167, 168 versus Wq164*, Wq22, Wq165*, Wq167, Wq168 and Wq169. * orig Oboe Concertos. Why record those and omid other listed flute concertos? So weird!
What is H 484.1? Wq22 is keyboard concerto It's really difficult to put pieces together
Maybe I should just enjoy the music and ignore the numbers... $:)
yes, it is very confusing. One additional complication is that the Wq numbers have subdivisions, e.g. the 6 most famous keyboard concerti composed in Hamburg are Wq 43,1-6. And most of the solo keyboard pieces are also arranged like that. That's why there are many more H numbers than Wq.
I have no clue about the solo keyboard stuff. The BIS series is at 30+ CDs for solo and about 20 for the keyboard concerti (there are more than 50 as well as a few double concertos and pieces called "sonatinas" but hardly different in scale from the concertos proper).
Symphonies I have (all #s Wotquenne)
173 G Remy, Akademie f. Alte Musik
174 C Haenchen, Remy
175 F Haenchen, Remy
177 e Dombrecht (177 and 178 are alternative versions, the first strings only)
178 e Haenchen, Remy, Akademie f. Alte Musik
179 E flat Haenchen, Akademie f. Alte Musik
180 G Remy
181 Haenchen
182,1 Café Zimmermann
182,2 Akademie f. Alte Musik
182,3 Café Zimmermann, Freiburger/Hengelbrock
182,4 Freiburger/Hengelbrock
182,5 Café Zimmermann, Freiburger/Hengelbrock
182,6 Café Zimmermann, Akademie f. Alte Musik
183,1-4 Richter/DG Archiv, Koopman/Erato
183,2+3 Akademie f. Alte Musik
So unless I missed it I do not have Wq 176 either. Overall, I think the 10 Hamburg symphonies Wq 182 and 183 are more interesting than the earlier Berlin symphonies anyway, so I am not exactly going out of my way to get the missing one.
I recently figured out the correspondences between cello, flute and keyboard versions of the concertos that exist for different instruments but I cannot find my notes.
Is anyone familiar with the organ sonatas? There are apparently recordings by Koopman and Tachezi of 6 organ sonatas? Are those versions of clavichord/harpsichord sonatas or genuine organ pieces with pedal parts?
here is a fairly expansive worklist, following the Wotquenne numbers
http://www.klassika.info/Komponisten/Bach_CPE/wv_wvz1.html
and here the (Helm) H. numbers
http://www.klassika.info//Komponisten/Bach_CPE/wv_wvz2.html#Wq_166
Quote from: Jo498 on June 17, 2016, 09:19:08 AM
yes, it is very confusing. One additional complication is that the Wq numbers have subdivisions, e.g. the 6 most famous keyboard concerti composed in Hamburg are Wq 43,1-6. And most of the solo keyboard pieces are also arranged like that.
These subdivisions actually help as they bundle related works together.
Quote from: Jo498 on June 17, 2016, 09:19:08 AMI have no clue about the solo keyboard stuff. The BIS series is at 30+ CDs for solo and about 20 for the keyboard concerti (there are more than 50 as well as a few double concertos and pieces called "sonatinas" but hardly different in scale from the concertos proper).
I just ordered a few days ago volume 11 of the solo keyboard series (was rather cheap). Some 15 years ago I bought Volume 7 of the Keyboard Concerto series. Collecting all the volumes seems scary, financially that is...
Quote from: Jo498 on June 17, 2016, 09:19:08 AM
Symphonies I have (all #s Wotquenne)
173 G Remy, Akademie f. Alte Musik
174 C Haenchen, Remy
175 F Haenchen, Remy
177 e Dombrecht (177 and 178 are alternative versions, the first strings only)
178 e Haenchen, Remy, Akademie f. Alte Musik
179 E flat Haenchen, Akademie f. Alte Musik
180 G Remy
181 Haenchen
182,1 Café Zimmermann
182,2 Akademie f. Alte Musik
182,3 Café Zimmermann, Freiburger/Hengelbrock
182,4 Freiburger/Hengelbrock
182,5 Café Zimmermann, Freiburger/Hengelbrock
182,6 Café Zimmermann, Akademie f. Alte Musik
183,1-4 Richter/DG Archiv, Koopman/Erato
183,2+3 Akademie f. Alte Musik
I have two Naxos discs and the Brilliant Classics 30 CD box to cover the symphonies (so I have the ten "182" and "183" symphonies twice).
Quote from: Jo498 on June 17, 2016, 09:19:08 AMSo unless I missed it I do not have Wq 176 either. Overall, I think the 10 Hamburg symphonies Wq 182 and 183 are more interesting than the earlier Berlin symphonies anyway, so I am not exactly going out of my way to get the missing one.
I like both Berlin and Hamburg stuff, but yes, Wq 182 and 183 seems better. I'd say CPE's Berlin stuff is more
beautiful and Hamburg stuff more
adventurous.
Quote from: Jo498 on June 18, 2016, 12:16:13 AM
here is a fairly expansive worklist, following the Wotquenne numbers
http://www.klassika.info/Komponisten/Bach_CPE/wv_wvz1.html
and here the (Helm) H. numbers
http://www.klassika.info//Komponisten/Bach_CPE/wv_wvz2.html#Wq_166
Oh, that looks good. Many thanks! ;)
Listening to this (arrived yesterday):
[asin]B000088SVV[/asin]
If the CPO Kuhnau disc of the same order was disappointing (bad sound engineering), this one is very good.
I'm enjoying this cd a lot. Considering this twofer was only 8 euros and I had a -20 % discount voucher, this was a great deal! 0:)
Quote from: 71 dB on December 10, 2016, 11:23:39 AM
Listening to this (arrived yesterday):
[asin]B000088SVV[/asin]
If the CPO Kuhnau disc of the same order was disappointing (bad sound engineering), this one is very good.
I'm enjoying this cd a lot. Considering this twofer was only 8 euros and I had a -20 % discount voucher, this was a great deal! 0:)
Oh man, you lucky rascal! I have been trying to buy that disk for several years now, but it never seems to be available at a combination of price and quality that I can live with. I have some low-res MP3 downloads of it, and am a big fan of Les Amis de Philippe, so if that link is still hot, I will snap it up.
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2016, 01:24:21 PM
Oh man, you lucky rascal! I have been trying to buy that disk for several years now, but it never seems to be available at a combination of price and quality that I can live with. I have some low-res MP3 downloads of it, and am a big fan of Les Amis de Philippe, so if that link is still hot, I will snap it up.
8)
Really? I never thought the set is that hard to get! :o
Here:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Carl-Philipp-Emanuel-Bach-1714-1788-Triosonaten-Wq-144-151/hnum/7866113 (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Carl-Philipp-Emanuel-Bach-1714-1788-Triosonaten-Wq-144-151/hnum/7866113)
Quote from: 71 dB on December 10, 2016, 02:17:42 PM
Really? I never thought the set is that hard to get! :o
Here:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Carl-Philipp-Emanuel-Bach-1714-1788-Triosonaten-Wq-144-151/hnum/7866113 (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Carl-Philipp-Emanuel-Bach-1714-1788-Triosonaten-Wq-144-151/hnum/7866113)
Hi
Gurn - I agree w/
Poju, i.e. not that expensive for a 2-CD set - I bought off Amazon back in 2010 at a cost of $14 from the MP - the same price from a few suppliers as shown below; the link given above even a better deal (Euro & $ about the same at the moment), if you can add enough to balance the shipping charge from JPC. Dave :)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-LrXQJtr/0/O/BachCPE_TrioSonatas.png)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 10, 2016, 04:52:48 PM
Hi Gurn - I agree w/ Poju, i.e. not that expensive for a 2-CD set - I bought off Amazon back in 2010 at a cost of $14 from the MP - the same price from a few suppliers as shown below; the link given above even a better deal (Euro & $ about the same at the moment), if you can add enough to balance the shipping charge from JPC. Dave :)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-LrXQJtr/0/O/BachCPE_TrioSonatas.png)
I went looking for it 2 or 3 times back a few years ago, and they never had it, just some AMP sellers wanting way too much. I had forgotten about it recently, until Poju posted it today. Apparently it is back and readily available again. It is a 2003 release, so I guess it is more of a return to circulation. :)
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2016, 06:30:35 PM
I went looking for it 2 or 3 times back a few years ago, and they never had it, just some AMP sellers wanting way too much. I had forgotten about it recently, until Poju posted it today. Apparently it is back and readily available again. It is a 2003 release, so I guess it is more of a return to circulation. :)
8)
JPC shipping cost to US is 12.99 euros, which is much more than to Finland (5.99 €). In my case I was able to divide the shipping cost over several cds and together with the 20 % discount voucher I efectively paid 7,34 euros (about $7.75) for the twofer. 8)
AMP sellers have it for $7.75 used and $10.18 new (+shipping).
Hopefully the time has come for you to finally get it. ;)
Some of these trio sonatas are fairly early, some might even have been composed together with his father as exercises. But it is certainly a top recording with the two Manfredos [no offense but that name is funny to me as the latin american/italian version of a German name (Manfred) and the latter used to be very common among men born in the 50s and 60s and is (especially as "Mannie") somehow associated with prole comedy characters since a few silly 1990s movies or sketches] on flute and violin as well as CPE champion Remy.
cpo has another disc with "piano trios" (Trio 1790) that is far more "modern" and the justly most famous chamber music of CPE are the highly original late "quartets" for flute, viola and keyboard (quartet because the keyboard counts as two voices)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2016, 06:30:35 PM
I went looking for it 2 or 3 times back a few years ago, and they never had it, just some AMP sellers wanting way too much. I had forgotten about it recently, until Poju posted it today. Apparently it is back and readily available again. It is a 2003 release, so I guess it is more of a return to circulation. :)
8)
Go for it!! :) Love that stuff...
And where the H@%# is
BIS with those huge delightfull CPE box sets they are keeping us waiting for?? ??? >:(
Q ;)
Quote from: Jo498 on December 11, 2016, 12:28:31 AM
cpo has another disc with "piano trios" (Trio 1790) that is far more "modern" and the justly most famous chamber music of CPE are the highly original late "quartets" for flute, viola and keyboard (quartet because the keyboard counts as two voices)
I have had that "other" disc for ages and it a good, but I think I prefer this twofer. I am fond of early C.P.E. Bach. :)
Classical CD Of The Week: C-P-Eppreciation! Or: The Rescue For Bach Junior
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/02/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_HAENSSLER_CPE-Bach_Ana-Marija-Markovina_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg?width=960)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/03/01/classical-cd-of-the-week-c-p-eppreciation-or-the-rescue-for-bach-junior/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/03/01/classical-cd-of-the-week-c-p-eppreciation-or-the-rescue-for-bach-junior/)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 01, 2017, 03:33:05 PM
Classical CD Of The Week: C-P-Eppreciation! Or: The Rescue For Bach Junior
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/02/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_HAENSSLER_CPE-Bach_Ana-Marija-Markovina_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg?width=960)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/03/01/classical-cd-of-the-week-c-p-eppreciation-or-the-rescue-for-bach-junior/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/03/01/classical-cd-of-the-week-c-p-eppreciation-or-the-rescue-for-bach-junior/)
I agree with you. It took me a disc or two to get used to the sound and style of CPE, but once I did, I could hardly put them down. I listened to them one after another, and never really found myself tired or 'needing a change'. Great set.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 01, 2017, 03:52:28 PM
I agree with you. It took me a disc or two to get used to the sound and style of CPE, but once I did, I could hardly put them down. I listened to them one after another, and never really found myself tired or 'needing a change'. Great set.
Ohhh, this looks interesting.
Thanks for the heads up,
Jens!
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 01, 2017, 03:33:05 PM
Classical CD Of The Week: C-P-Eppreciation! Or: The Rescue For Bach Junior
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/02/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_HAENSSLER_CPE-Bach_Ana-Marija-Markovina_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg?width=960)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/03/01/classical-cd-of-the-week-c-p-eppreciation-or-the-rescue-for-bach-junior/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/03/01/classical-cd-of-the-week-c-p-eppreciation-or-the-rescue-for-bach-junior/)
Thanks again, Jens. Can you (or someone else) please tell me the width of this set when it sits on the shelf? (Perhaps a weird question, but shelf space is limited in my apartment.)
Quote from: George on March 01, 2017, 04:56:49 PM
Thanks again, Jens. Can you (or someone else) please tell me the width of this set when it sits on the shelf? (Perhaps a weird question, but shelf space is limited in my apartment.)
2 and 5/8 inches (roughly). :)
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 01, 2017, 06:11:37 PM
2 and 5/8 inches (roughly). :)
Yes, very tidy package.
This is a stunning set. Great sound and magnificent playing. She didn't just learn and play the music, this has been the heart of her performing repertoire for over a decade. This is one of the boxes I have played most often since I got it.
Quote from: George on March 01, 2017, 04:56:49 PM
Thanks again, Jens. Can you (or someone else) please tell me the width of this set when it sits on the shelf? (Perhaps a weird question, but shelf space is limited in my apartment.)
67mm I hear you. ;D No wider than those 23 CDs would be, stacked against each other in sleeves + booklet.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61KBFnOPQAL._SY355_.jpg) of the three recordings I have, this is my favorite. It seems forgotten after Spanyi and Staier. That's too bad. I have to be a little curious about the nuts and bolts of what Spanyi was working with all these years. I have all of the Spanyi and admire it. There's gold in there! But, would it be imprudent to ask if his work, at times, lacks in quality for what it gives us in definitvve quantity? I like Spanyi's individual choices. Will we ever get so much tangent piano? Yet, comparing to Barokorkestra and Melante...I don't know the history of Melante, but they're surprisingly convincing even next to the Staier. Plus, I can hear what Van Asperen is doing! And let's face it, next to Staier, he's no slouch! I wonder, are there any other recordings of the concertos, not these six, but others found in Spanyi, that might be lurking around?
Quote from: milk on March 06, 2017, 04:48:58 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61KBFnOPQAL._SY355_.jpg) of the three recordings I have, this is my favorite. It seems forgotten after Spanyi and Staier. That's too bad. I have to be a little curious about the nuts and bolts of what Spanyi was working with all these years. I have all of the Spanyi and admire it. There's gold in there! But, would it be imprudent to ask if his work, at times, lacks in quality for what it gives us in definitvve quantity? I like Spanyi's individual choices. Will we ever get so much tangent piano? Yet, comparing to Barokorkestra and Melante...I don't know the history of Melante, but they're surprisingly convincing even next to the Staier. Plus, I can hear what Van Asperen is doing! And let's face it, next to Staier, he's no slouch! I wonder, are there any other recordings of the concertos, not these six, but others found in Spanyi, that might be lurking around?
Good question. Like you, I have been somewhat overwhelmed with CPE in the last 5 or 6 years, they tend to get forgotten in dark corners of my collection. I do, however, have and much enjoy the disk you have pictured here. It makes me want to dig around and see what I have lurking back there. I rarely turn down a CPE disk so there's no telling. :)
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 06, 2017, 05:24:21 PM
Good question. Like you, I have been somewhat overwhelmed with CPE in the last 5 or 6 years, they tend to get forgotten in dark corners of my collection. I do, however, have and much enjoy the disk you have pictured here. It makes me want to dig around and see what I have lurking back there. I rarely turn down a CPE disk so there's no telling. :)
8)
I think the critics forgot this one.
(http://is3.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music/v4/70/fe/a8/70fea8b0-2913-0249-6b9d-0872465de51f/source/1200x630bf.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61gCg4hZwLL.jpg)
I feel like plugging more stuff. These two disks are really good. One particularly astonishing track is the Arioso with an achingly sensitive performance by Butterfield backed by Cummings on clavichord. This is really something. Meanwhile Beyer and Stern turn in a sparkling performance with Stern employing fortepiano.
Here's another keeper - featuring the high quality of both performers and composer:
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/168/MI0001168309.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Quote from: milk on March 06, 2017, 05:59:15 PM
(http://is3.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music/v4/70/fe/a8/70fea8b0-2913-0249-6b9d-0872465de51f/source/1200x630bf.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61gCg4hZwLL.jpg)
I feel like plugging more stuff. These two disks are really good. One particularly astonishing track is the Arioso with an achingly sensitive performance by Butterfield backed by Cummings on clavichord. This is really something. Meanwhile Beyer and Stern turn in a sparkling performance with Stern employing fortepiano.
Here's another keeper - featuring the high quality of both performers and composer: (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/168/MI0001168309.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I have the parrot one on ZigZag, it is excellent. When I got it, I was even surprised to discover he wrote any accompanied sonatas. I have the clavichord one in my wish list, wonder why I never pulled the trigger on it: Butterfield is one of my favorite fiddlers (Revolutionary Drawing Room). The other one I've never even seen, but I will say this, the 3 or 4 Winter & Winter disks I have are among the most outstanding SQ of all my disks, and excellent playing every time, so I wouldn't hesitate to take a flyer on it. Particularly since you rec it. :)
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 06, 2017, 06:23:18 PM
I have the parrot one on ZigZag, it is excellent. When I got it, I was even surprised to discover he wrote any accompanied sonatas. I have the clavichord one in my wish list, wonder why I never pulled the trigger on it: Butterfield is one of my favorite fiddlers (Revolutionary Drawing Room). The other one I've never even seen, but I will say this, the 3 or 4 Winter & Winter disks I have are among the most outstanding SQ of all my disks, and excellent playing every time, so I wouldn't hesitate to take a flyer on it. Particularly since you rec it. :)
8)
I'm really interested to know what you think of the Arioso. I haven't heard anything quite like it. It's really unique. It reminds me how they say this sort of music is the beginning of romanticism.
Quote from: milk on March 06, 2017, 05:59:15 PM
[(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/168/MI0001168309.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 06, 2017, 06:23:18 PM
The other one I've never even seen, but I will say this, the 3 or 4 Winter & Winter disks I have are among the most outstanding SQ of all my disks, and excellent playing every time, so I wouldn't hesitate to take a flyer on it. Particularly since you rec it. :)
8)
That's a winner...
Gurn, I'm surprised thst you missed that one! :D
But you needn't hesitate - as you suspected it's really superb
Q
Latest on Forbes.com:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPQmcwZXcAAQVWE.jpg)
Latest on @ForbesOpinion: Classical #CDoftheWeek:
Alexei Lubimov And C.P.E. Bach Going Off On A Tangent
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/11/22/classical-cd-of-the-week-alexei-lubimov-and-c-p-e-bach-going-off-on-a-tangent/#50b50f666cb7 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/11/22/classical-cd-of-the-week-alexei-lubimov-and-c-p-e-bach-going-off-on-a-tangent/#50b50f666cb7)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 22, 2017, 10:20:37 AM
Latest on Forbes.com:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPQmcwZXcAAQVWE.jpg)
Latest on @ForbesOpinion: Classical #CDoftheWeek:
Alexei Lubimov And C.P.E. Bach Going Off On A Tangent
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/11/22/classical-cd-of-the-week-alexei-lubimov-and-c-p-e-bach-going-off-on-a-tangent/#50b50f666cb7 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/11/22/classical-cd-of-the-week-alexei-lubimov-and-c-p-e-bach-going-off-on-a-tangent/#50b50f666cb7)
Ooooohh! :)
8)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 22, 2017, 10:20:37 AM
Latest on Forbes.com:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPQmcwZXcAAQVWE.jpg)
Latest on @ForbesOpinion: Classical #CDoftheWeek:
Alexei Lubimov And C.P.E. Bach Going Off On A Tangent
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/11/22/classical-cd-of-the-week-alexei-lubimov-and-c-p-e-bach-going-off-on-a-tangent/#50b50f666cb7 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/11/22/classical-cd-of-the-week-alexei-lubimov-and-c-p-e-bach-going-off-on-a-tangent/#50b50f666cb7)
this!
Happy birthday to CPE Bach. I am interested in his music, but haven't heard much of it beyond the four famous "Hamburg" symphonies and the C minor Harpsichord Concerto. I would like to explore some of his keyboard music. I bought François Chaplin's Naxos disc with piano sonatas and am eagerly awaiting it. I would be curious what else is out there; does anyone want to recommend a good recording, particularly one that might emphasize the so-called "Empfindsamer-Stil" that he was known for at the time? I see that Lubimov disc played on a tangent piano has been posted a couple of years ago in the thread. Anyone still listening to it?
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 08, 2020, 08:03:13 AM
Happy birthday to CPE Bach. I am interested in his music, but haven't heard much of it beyond the four famous "Hamburg" symphonies and the C minor Harpsichord Concerto. I would like to explore some of his keyboard music. I bought François Chaplin's Naxos disc with piano sonatas and am eagerly awaiting it. I would be curious what else is out there; does anyone want to recommend a good recording, particularly one that might emphasize the so-called "Empfindsamer-Stil" that he was known for at the time? I see that Lubimov disc played on a tangent piano has been posted a couple of years ago in the thread. Anyone still listening to it?
Well, plenty of CPE on keyboards of different types - depends on how many discs you may want and your budget! ;) For myself, I have about a half dozen singles w/ various performers and the 3-CD Belder box shown below; Miklos Spanyi has been recording the solo and concerto KB works for BIS for a while - he's up to V. 39 (pic below) in the 'solo series' and uses a variety of instruments (I have just a few of his recordings - not boxed so an expensive route). Finally, if you prefer the piano and want a big box, Ana-Marija Markovina has a 26-CD offering. I'm sure others will 'chime in' w/ their favorites - plenty of excellent choices for a small or large collection! Dave :)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BjIX2I5QL.jpg) (https://bis.se/shop/17115/art15/h7830/5047830-origpic-066716.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71J131xk6rL._SL1200_.jpg)
^Nice. I'll look into the Belder. (I have been curious about his JS Bach recordings as well). Afraid I'll have to pass on the Markovina for now. I'm just not in a position to buy (or listen to) twenty-six discs of CPE Bach at this point in my life. Though I'm sure that box has been life-changing for at least a handful of listeners.
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 08, 2020, 08:03:13 AM
Happy birthday to CPE Bach. I am interested in his music, but haven't heard much of it beyond the four famous "Hamburg" symphonies and the C minor Harpsichord Concerto. I would like to explore some of his keyboard music. I bought François Chaplin's Naxos disc with piano sonatas and am eagerly awaiting it. I would be curious what else is out there
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71J131xk6rL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81xIXy9qhWL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/455/MI0003455702.jpg?partner=allrovi.com) (https://img.discogs.com/yOqWqQPH4sPvbvyAvTD5M2kBEX8=/fit-in/600x543/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8310677-1459157273-4499.jpeg.jpg) (https://cdbaby.name/e/d/edda2_large.jpg?v=6a146d24-0548-4555-9458-ecc66a4c82c9)
^Beautiful artwork on those Hyperion discs. I will have to seek those out.
Don't forget his cello concertos. The writer for the Hyperion issue talks about the 'unpredictable and fantastical qualities so fundamental to the music of CPE Bach'. Very much so. They have been recorded many times over.
Quote from: André on March 08, 2020, 12:51:04 PM
Don't forget his cello concertos. The writer for the Hyperion issue talks about the 'unpredictable and fantastical qualities so fundamental to the music of CPE Bach'. Very much so. They have been recorded many times over.
I'm not familiar with much of CPE Bach's music, but the fantastic, inventive, and forward-looking cello concerti make me want to explore further. Truls Mørk's recordings are excellent:
[asin]B003D0ZNX8[/asin]
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 08, 2020, 09:40:20 AM
^Beautiful artwork on those Hyperion discs.
Indeed! Hyperion has usually nice cover artwork, but the font faces are often a bit silly as is the case here: "Keyboard Sonatas" is written with perhaps a little bit too fancy font. :P
Quote from: André on March 08, 2020, 12:51:04 PM
Don't forget his cello concertos. The writer for the Hyperion issue talks about the 'unpredictable and fantastical qualities so fundamental to the music of CPE Bach'. Very much so. They have been recorded many times over.
I have the 30 CD boxset on Brilliant Classics and it has one disc dedicated to three Cello Concertos Wq170-172 (
Raphael Wallfisch/Scottish Ensemble/Jonathan Morton) I need to revisit the disc (and the boxset for that matter because C.P.E. Bach is a wonderful composer).
Gaillard, Bylsma, Coin, Dieltiens, Suzuki - among others, have recorded the three cello concerti, of these only Gaillard is split across two discs. And my own recent discovery favourite, Julian Steckel
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Fvp4kj8fL._SS500_.jpg)
AFAIR all non-keyboard concerti (flute, oboe, cello) are arrangements of keyboard concerti, all the three cello concerti also exist for flute. (I cannot find the corresponding harpsichord versions now).
170 a -> 166
171 Bflat -> 167
172 A -> 168
Dipping my toes in the water again with CPE Bach's music. Mostly listening to the Hamburg Symphonies (w/ obbligato winds) and Sinfonias (for strings + continuo only). I have a great Brilliant disc with Didier Talpain and Solamente Naturali (about whom I know nothing) and another great Naxos disc with Christian Benda and the Capella Istropolitana. I want to branch out from here and get more, probably starting with the cello concertos.
Thoughts on Bylsma/Leonhardt/OAE on Virgin?
the best of the Bach kids, IMHO - but the others are pretty great!
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 24, 2020, 02:34:29 PM
Dipping my toes in the water again with CPE Bach's music. Mostly listening to the Hamburg Symphonies (w/ obbligato winds) and Sinfonias (for strings + continuo only). I have a great Brilliant disc with Didier Talpain and Solamente Naturali (about whom I know nothing) and another great Naxos disc with Christian Benda and the Capella Istropolitana. I want to branch out from here and get more, probably starting with the cello concertos.
Thoughts on Bylsma/Leonhardt/OAE on Virgin?
I'll second Mørk in the Cello Concertos.
For the Wq. 182 and 183 symphonies, I've been very impressed by Minasi
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61NKyVzyeTL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/814q%2BGBZvdL._SX522_.jpg)
Just re-posting from the 'listening thread' trying to sort out some flute recordings and catalog numbers - Dave :)
QuoteQuote from: Que on January 16, 2021, 03:34:47 AM
(https://cdn-s3.allmusic.com/release-covers/400/0002/060/0002060208.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51H6EII3qxL.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91PhSMMeegL._SS500_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/517DRQV0XJL.jpg)
Wonderful, and beats Jed Wentz et al. (Brilliant) hands down....
Hi Que - Jed Wentz is a favorite performer for me, but I do not have the 2-CD set inserted above; however, listened this morning on Spotify and the performances do not have the 'vim & vigor' of his other recordings nor of the 3 in my collection, i.e. Kuijken & van Asperen (1993), Kuijken & Demeyere (2006), and Hazelzet et al (pics also above) - listening now to each performance; and all quite good (reviews attached for those interested), so no need for me to buy the Wentz, which is a duplicated program to the Kuijken & Demeyere.
But, I was curious about having all of this CPE Bach flute music and reviewed his List of Compositions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Carl_Philipp_Emanuel_Bach), the reviews attached, and some of the booklet notes; seems that the 1993 vs. 2006 Kuijken performances are of different works (see my analysis below); except for 1 work, the Hazelzet one disc recording is the same as Kuijken & Demeyere but missing a disc - my mind is clearer and may help others make a selection or two? Dave :)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-Gt6F5fv/0/f6ed3ded/O/BachCPE_FluteWorks.png)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515cLunkiJL.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61KBFnOPQAL._SY355_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51EHus4wdDL._SX466_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51JeMRPh64L._SY300_SX300_QL70_ML2_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41Qo0tZkh2L._AC_SX425_.jpg)
Recent issue and looking good! :)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81iumKbnc3L._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: Que on August 13, 2021, 12:19:32 PM
Recent issue and looking good! :)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81iumKbnc3L._SS500_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71UcguX7EyL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA0OTkwMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MTUwMjY3MDF9)
Hi
Que - had to check my Google Docs database on CPE Bach (I keep the prolific Baroque guys and a few others whose works I own tabulated so I don't duplicate purchases) - quoted below are the 'Symphonies' in my collection from CPE - looks like I have those 'Hamburg String Symphonies' done by Oramo (inserted above - reviews attached for those interested) - looking forward to reviews on this newest addition to the competition! :laugh: Dave
P.S. it's an all string orchestra (except for his sister on harpsichord) but nothing in the booklet or in the reviews about period practices?
QuoteSymphonies
Wq 174 (H649) C Major^
Wq 175 (H650) F Major^
Wq 178 (H653) E minor^
Wq 179 (H654) E Flat Major^
Wq 180 (H655) G Major^
Wq 181 (H656) F Major^
Wq 182:1-6 (H657-662) - Hamburg Symphonies+
Wq 183/1 (H663) D Major*
Wq 183/2 (H664) E Flat Major*
Wq 183/3 (H665) F Major*
Wq 183/4 (H666) G Major*
+Oramo-Ostrobothnian CO - Alba 374
*Bylsma-Leonhardt -Orch AE - VeritasX2 61794 2 4
^Zacharias-Orch Cham Lausanne - MDG 940 1824-6
Has anyone heard the Peter Serkin set of the keyboard sonatas that came out a couple of years ago? This is pretty much impossible to sample. Someone did upload some live recordings he made around that time to Youtube and his technique was not secure to put it kindly.
From Christopher Hogwood's essay in his booklet for his recording of Probenstüke sonatas.
C.P.E. BACH Sonatas and Sonatinas from Essay on the True Art of playing Keyboard Instruments
When Charles Burney visited Hamburg in 1772, he already knew the compositions of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, but he had never before had a chance to hear Bach perform, and eagerly seized the opportunity of an invitation to dinner.
After dinner, ... I prevailed upon him to sit down again to a clavichord, and he played with little intermission, till near eleven o'clock at night. During this time, he grew so animated and possessed, that he not only played, but looked like one inspired. His eyes were fixed, his under hp fell, and drops of effervescence distilled from his countenance.
His performance to-day convinced me of what I had suggested before from his works; that he is not only one of the greatest composers that ever existed, for keyed instruments, but the best player in point of expression; for others, perhaps, have had as rapid execution: however, he possesses every style; though he chiefly confines himself to the expressive.
It was Bach's publications that spread his style throughout Europe, since his performances were restricted by his long period of employment as resident keyboard player to Frederick the Great in Berlin. His sonatas were aimed primarily at 'connoisseurs and amateurs' and his Essay, first published in two parts (1753 and 1762), contained the essence of his evangelistic zeal for a sensitive, logical and easily comprehended keyboard method. Modest as he was, even he noticed that 'since its appearance, teaching and playing have improved', and later generations were more complimentary. Haydn remarked: 'Everything that I know I learnt from Emmanuel', Beethoven instructed Czerny to bring a copy to his first lesson, and Mozart, with typical bravura, declared: 'he is the father, we are the children. Those of us who do anything right, learned it from him.'
The musical examples that were issued with Part One in 1753 (18 Probestiicke in sechs Sonaten), together with the set of Sonatas with varied Reprises (1760), present Bach at his most painstakingly didactic.
In notating the Lessons, I have scored everything that seemed necessary; and I have played them many times with great care so that not even the smallest detail would escape me .... Because I wanted to publish a complete work illustrative of fingering in all keys, the use of embellishments, and all varieties of expression, I could not prevent an increase in the difficulty of the Lessons.
Evidently with the success of the Essay and Probestiicke a demand for additional graded pieces arose, and VI Sonatina nuove in Bach's newest style were added to the third edition of 1787.
The eighteen pieces of the first collection of Sonatas are closely related to Bach's instructions in Part One of his Essay, with every detail of fingering carefully indicated in the engraved score. His instructions on embellishments (the most detailed and complex section of the entire Essay) discuss many variations and subtleties which are nowhere employed in the Probestacke, but Bach was following what he considered to be the good example of the French who always notated their decorations with painstaking accuracy. A prodigal use of embellishments was to be avoided; the Essay and the Lessons aimed to teach not only how to interpret the abbreviations but also how to select the right context for each ornament. The Probestiicke are Bach's demonstration of moderation as well as correct choice: 'Regard them as spices which may ruin the best dish'.
In the section on performance Bach refers explicitly to several of the Lessons. He does not dispute the need for 'finger velocity' (see Sonatas II and VI), but warns that technical tricks may simply 'stun the mind without moving it'. Variety in dynamics, speed, articulation must always be controlled by the true content of the composition; the player will only be able to 'rouse and still the passions' by realizing the Affikt of the piece, and, as Burney noticed, the keyboard instrument most capable of these bold changes of sentiment was the clavichord. Apart from its softer tone, the good clavichord shares all the advantages of the pianoforte, plus the effects of vibrato and portato noted by Burney, which (Bach explains) 'I produce by means of added pressure after each stroke'. This device, specific to the clavichord, is called for in several movements of the Sonatas, and it, together with the elaborate and extreme dynamic markings indicates Bach's preferred instrument.
'He possesses every style' claimed Burney, and Reichardt pointed out that `Bach's manner of playing would not have been devised at all without the clavichord and he devised it only for the clavichord'. No greater compliment could be paid to his power to stir the emotions via so modest an instrument than the fact that his admirer, the poet Heinrich Wilhelm von Gestemberg, felt driven to publish the final Fantasia with a double text superimposed; one was the dying speech of Socrates, the other was Hamlet's soliloquy 'To be, or not to be'. Christopher Hogwood
Spanyi on the Probestücke sonatas
In my opinion it is no exaggeration to say that C.P.E. Bach's eighteen Probestücke, grouped as six sonatas and published as an appendix to his epoch-making keyboard treatise Versuch über die wahre Art das Clavier zu spielen, are among the most substantial works in the composer's entire keyboard oeuvre. Although Bach's keyboard music shows an amazingly constant high quality it also has some extraordinary high points. I am prepared not only to rank the set of the Probestücke among these, but also to propose it as a pinnacle in the entire literature for the keyboard.
C.P.E. Bach's publications with pedagogical aims show that he never found composing for less skilled or amateur players or even beginners a burden but rather a special challenge, resulting (as in the case of some other brilliant key-board educators such as Johann Sebastian Bach or Bela Bart6k) in excellent pieces. But even among C. R E. Bach's pedagogical works the Probestücke hold a special place. In this publication Bach collected his most precious ideas, as if to demonstrate his finest skills as composer and pedagogue as well as his ideas about the aesthetics of keyboard playing: an hour's worth of music of pure beauty, full of the most varied and sparkling ideas. In most cases I have even refrained from adding embellishments to the repeats in binary movements in order to pre-sent these musical diamonds in their original, unadulterated, marvellous glow.
Even technical restrictions did not discourage Bach: the Probestücke are composed so that they could be played on less modern instruments of the time, with a keyboard range of only four octaves. We also know, from the text part of the Versuch, that Bach did not rule out the performance of the pieces on the harpsichord or other keyboard instruments although his preferred instrument was the clavichord. The Probestücke also contain some indications of Bebung, an effect similar to vibrato on string instruments and only possible to achieve on the clavichord among the keyboard instruments. At the time of composition of the Probestücke, more modern clavichords were being built with a five-octave compass. As the Versuch as well as the Probestücke remained relevant until the end of the eighteenth century (or even longer), I believe that the choice of a clavichord modelled on an instrument of the late eighteenth century is one of the possible historically correct choices. After much experimenting, my conclusion is that my large, late-Saxonian clavichord is a very convincing instrument for the Probestücke. Despite of its powerful and robust sound, the most delicate effects required by these compositions can be achieved on it. This is, however, only one of the numerous types of clavichord and keyboard instrument in general on which this music may have been performed in its time.
Some interesting thoughts on some of CPE Bach's keyboard works here. It seems his music is going through a kind of resurgence and re-evaluation.
I wonder what Spanyi or Hogwood would think about some of Charles Rosen's thoughts on the music of CPE Bach:
"C.P.E. Bach's horizon is wider harmonically, but his practice is incoherent: he is more interested in local effects- he delights in harmonic shock, as did Haydn; but Haydn knew how to weld his effects together, and his most disparate harmonies are not only reconciled but even explained by what follows as well as implied by what precedes."
"C.P.E. Bach's grandeur lacks breadth just as his passion lacked wit."
-Charles Rosen
Quote from: atardecer on July 29, 2023, 07:09:16 PM"C.P.E. Bach's horizon is wider harmonically, but his practice is incoherent: he is more interested in local effects- he delights in harmonic shock, as did Haydn; but Haydn knew how to weld his effects together, and his most disparate harmonies are not only reconciled but even explained by what follows as well as implied by what precedes."
Isn't this part of the nature of the genre of fantasia? If not, what is a fantasia exactly?
Quote from: Mandryka on July 30, 2023, 12:36:23 AMIsn't this part of the nature of the genre of fantasia? If not, what is a fantasia exactly?
I think so. I think he was referring to the works in sonata form. As far as I know the primary reason C.P.E. is considered an important composer is his contributions to sonata form. Similarly you referred to the works as Probestücke
sonatas. Perhaps these works you are referring to are closer to being fantasias, I'm not sure. Actually one of the things Rosen points out is that before sonata form was codified by the romantics, there was actually no standard form. It just referred to something composers were doing at a given time and it changed over time.
As far as C.P.E. I don't necessarily agree with Rosen, and I suspect Haydn's innovations were building on the work of C.P.E., so in that sense I'm not sure how fair the criticism is. I find the claim by Spanyi that these C.P.E. sonatas are a 'pinnacle in the entire literature for the keyboard' an interesting one. I'm not familiar enough with the music to have a position on that.
Well I just don't think what he says is true of the sonatas, though there are obviously a lot of them and I haven't checked each one. Put it like this I'm listening to the second movement of the 6th Wurttemberg Sonata as I'm typing this, and it doesn't strike me as being full of random shocks - harmonic or rhythmic or otherwise. Quite complex music though, I'd say.
But there may well be some music which does fit what Rosen says - possibly some of the stuff from Sonaten für Kenner und Liebhaber. Again, it may be a style thing rather than a fault - empfindsamer style.
By the way, the Probestücke sonatas include one magnificent fantasy movement - the last movement of the 6th. That's the one that Hogwood says was published with Socrates's Death Speech and Hamlet's To be or not to be at the top of the page. I don't know how it compares to fantasia pieces by Haydn but I can say this: that CPE Bach seems to me to have nothing to blush about when compared to Mozart's famous K475.
I remember reading of an encounter between Bach and a very young Haydn, i think when he was employed for Morzin if not even earlier.
As i remember it, Haydn performed one of Bach's works, and Bach approached him complementing the young Haydn for being one of the few who actually understood his music.
Sadly, i'm not sure how much of this story i'm recollecting correctly but it was interesting first because it revealed that Haydn had an intimate connection to the music of Bach and that Bach felt he was somewhat misunderstood by his contemporaries.
Judging the music of C.P.E. Bach for us today is a bit haphazard simply because it immediately calls for comparisons with the music of his father which is a bit unfair. Bach senior also presented a problem for C.P.E. who had the difficult task of carrying over the innovations of his father, incorporate them into new emerging musical styles in an age of rapid change, while also attempting to forge his own unique voice in the process. I'm sure that wasn't exactly easy.
Inspiring comments from Spanyi on the Wurttemberg Sonatas as Tolkienesque
These sonatas are not only long and technically difficult, but also contain a wealth of ideas and characters. In his last period C.P.E. Bach very consciously took steps to wards concise, extremely concentrated forms and a certain abstraction. In the 'Württemberg' Sonatas he makes very generous use of a wide range of thematic material.
As a result both of this and of the extended forms employed, the listener experiences the progress of time in a manner similar to the plot of a long novel or film. The sonatas have almost 'symphonic' or even 'operatic' dimensions and attitude. Far from being abstract, this music could rather be called romantic, conjuring up memories or causing us to imagine fantastic, colourful, extraordinary landscapes – in my mind similar to Tolkien's Middle Earth...
<snipped some stuff about the best instrument to use for them>
(https://cdn.openart.ai/stable_diffusion/21e2341bb2e15b397c4ccd60418a8d0b6c4e5199_2000x2000.webp)
I thought this comment from Spanyi v 29 was worth noting for the ideas about the evolution of Bach's style
One exciting feature of the Wq 52 set of sonatas – published as the second sequel
of the famous Sonatas with Varied Reprises (found on Volume 21 [BIS-1624]),
following the first sequel (Wq 51, on Volumes 26 & 27 [BIS-2040 & 2043]) – is the
inclusion of two sonatas composed much earlier than the rest of the set. While
most of the Wq 50, 51 and 52 sonatas were composed between 1758 and 1762,
the Zweyte Fortsetzung set contains two sonatas from the 1740s: No. 1 in E flat
major from 1747 (on Volume 28 [BIS-2045]) and No. 4 in F sharp minor from 1744
on the present disc. Stylistically these differ radically from the rest of the set;
instead they are closest to the 'Württemberg' Sonatas, published in 1744, and to
the sonatas composed directly thereafter, included on Volumes 24 & 25 [BIS-1764 &
1819]. Both sonatas feature long forms, a highly dramatic musical language with
many colourful contrasts and textures that are more massive and complex than
those of the later sonatas, composed at a time when the composer was already
seeking a new language through lighter, more gallant stylistic elements and a
very refined and transparent keyboard writing
Quote from: atardecer on July 29, 2023, 07:09:16 PMSome interesting thoughts on some of CPE Bach's keyboard works here. It seems his music is going through a kind of resurgence and re-evaluation.
I wonder what Spanyi or Hogwood would think about some of Charles Rosen's thoughts on the music of CPE Bach:
"C.P.E. Bach's horizon is wider harmonically, but his practice is incoherent: he is more interested in local effects- he delights in harmonic shock, as did Haydn; but Haydn knew how to weld his effects together, and his most disparate harmonies are not only reconciled but even explained by what follows as well as implied by what precedes."
"C.P.E. Bach's grandeur lacks breadth just as his passion lacked wit."
-Charles Rosen
The this sonata must be the sort of thing Rosen was talking about I guess, and in truth I find it really challenging music. Interesting that Alexander Lonquich has championed it. For me it just shows how alien the 18th century is to me, as alien as Machaut.
I've not heard the Lonquich yet, I just wanted an example from YouTube - it's on v29 Spanyi.
^Yes, I see what you mean; this is super weird. Such odd chromaticism and modulation, all over the place, not at all like Mozartian chromaticism. Lots of oddly timed pauses. Definitely piques my interest about CPE Bach's keyboard works... maybe I'll see if I can find these Württemberg Sonatas I keep seeing y'all talk about (is this one of them?)
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 03, 2023, 10:23:05 AM^Yes, I see what you mean; this is super weird. Such odd chromaticism and modulation, all over the place, not at all like Mozartian chromaticism. Lots of oddly timed pauses. Definitely piques my interest about CPE Bach's keyboard works... maybe I'll see if I can find these Württemberg Sonatas I keep seeing y'all talk about (is this one of them?)
No it's not a Wurttemberg -- it's a million miles away from those sonatas. I suspect it's a real outlier, and what it shows to me is how much unexplored expressive potentiality there is even in common practice tonality. Lonquich is right to try to make some sort of sense out of it!
Here's what Darrell M. Berg says about it (he's General Editor of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach: The Complete Works.)
Bach seems to have intended this sonata as a study in discontinuity. Its opening
Allegro has frequent dynamic contrasts, jagged melodic contours and many
empty beats, all of which contribute to its capriciousness. After the conclusion
of the first movement in C major, the second, a short, obviously transitional
Adagio assai begins, unexpectedly, in the Neapolitan key: D flat major. It ulti -
mately becomes tonally unstable, travelling through several keys and ending on
a dominant harmony that requires resolution to C major. The resolution takes
place only after the Andante has begun. This movement, like the first, has a
restless character. Once more, contrasting dynamics add to its feeling of disjointedness. Interestingly, the autograph score of this sonata contains one of Bach's first uses of the word crescendo, indicating two smooth changes of dynamics that contrast with all of the sudden ones.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 03, 2023, 10:47:41 AMI suspect it's a real outlier, and what it shows to me is how much unexplored expressive potentiality there is even in common practice tonality.
I think it was Schoenberg who said "there is still a lot of great music to be written in C major".
A summary of my conclusions about Bach's keyboard music so far.
He is a very great composer of keyboard music with one reservation -- the famous Kenner und Liebhaber sonatas. I just can't get on with them! Some fabulous rondos in the set, and maybe fantasies too -- but the sonatas, well I'm not finding they're as satisfying to hear as the Probestucke, the Fortsetzung, the Wurttemburg and so on. I'm clearly not enough of a kenner!
I'm sure I shall eat my words! I'm about to download Peter Serkin's recordings, and they may be what I need.
Here's an example -- the F major sonata from Kenner und Liebhaber I Wq55/5. I'm sure there are vey clever things going on, but it seems to me to be not very eloquent music. It feels like "academic" music. I suppose that's what kenners are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhi3ahTyqac&ab_channel=Mikl%C3%B3sSp%C3%A1nyi-Topic