GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Classical Music for Beginners => Topic started by: paganinio on November 05, 2009, 08:43:55 PM

Poll
Question: Star Wars music = classical music?
Option 1: No
Option 2: Yes
Title: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: paganinio on November 05, 2009, 08:43:55 PM
I think smooth jazz counts as jazz, I might think post-rock counts as rock, but, Star Wars soundtrack (http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Original-Picture-Soundtrack/dp/B000003G8X), or any film soundtrack for that matter, counts as classical. I think a better term would be "contemporary orchestral compositions". But we really don't have an accurate term, other than "film score".


Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: drogulus on November 05, 2009, 09:55:57 PM


     If it can be turned into concert music it can be called classical. I suppose what it's taken for decides it. Williams is right in the middle of the classical tradition, his jazz background notwithstanding. So, what would disqualify a Star Wars Suite (there is one, right?)? In my opinion, nothing. Whether it could be considered exceptional classical music is another question. Certainly there is no reason to exclude Star Wars purely on quality. Besides, it's intrinsic to the modern understanding that bad as well as "challenging" art is not disqualified.

      :P
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Dana on November 05, 2009, 10:39:06 PM
Why don't we just call it all music and have done with it? :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: listener on November 05, 2009, 10:47:50 PM
How might this differ from Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky  and Lt. Kije scores or Walton's Henry V or Bliss's Things to Come ?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: drogulus on November 05, 2009, 11:44:18 PM
Quote from: listener on November 05, 2009, 10:47:50 PM
How might this differ from Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky  and Lt. Kije scores or Walton's Henry V or Bliss's Things to Come ?

    These composers built their reputations in classical music first. Williams, Previn, and Herrman had to fight for recognition. It's changed somewhat, though, as film is now seen as the great 20th century popular art form. And the increasing recognition of popular musical forms as legitimate vehicles for art helps.

Quote from: Dana on November 05, 2009, 10:39:06 PM
Why don't we just call it all music and have done with it? :)

     If someone asks me if I like music I might say "I like some music". So, what kind do I like? It doesn't seem to me that "good" music is a kind in any useful sense. So, there will be categories. :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: david johnson on November 06, 2009, 12:09:18 AM
star wars film music was written to fit the flicks, but its popularity among classical audiences shows, among other things, that it can be really fun to hear and should appear in the concert hall.

i also think orchestras in the usa should perform a sousa march on each concert.  :)

dj
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: drogulus on November 06, 2009, 12:40:29 AM
Quote from: david johnson on November 06, 2009, 12:09:18 AM
star wars film music was written to fit the flicks, but its popularity among classical audiences shows, among other things, that it can be really fun to hear and should appear in the concert hall.

i also think orchestras in the usa should perform a sousa march on each concert.  :)

dj

      Art that's fun should be in there with the nonfun kind.

      I also think John Williams is a terrific composer.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on November 06, 2009, 01:18:39 AM
Quote from: Dana on November 05, 2009, 10:39:06 PM
Why don't we just call it all music and have done with it? :)

Yes. Why do we try to fit everything inside imaginary boxes? Many interesting and valuable things fall "between boxes".

Quote from: drogulus on November 06, 2009, 12:40:29 AM
I also think John Williams is a terrific composer.

Yes, a terrific composer of music for movies.  0:)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on November 06, 2009, 02:13:04 AM
A couple years back I asked the same question.  Ran for 9 pages:


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1096.0.html
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: drogulus on November 06, 2009, 02:23:36 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 06, 2009, 01:18:39 AM
Yes. Why do we try to fit everything inside imaginary boxes? Many interesting and valuable things fall "between boxes".

Yes, a terrific composer of music for movies.  0:)

     Why do we try to fit everything inside imaginary boxes?  ;D

     

   
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on November 06, 2009, 08:42:57 AM
Since some of us are dissatisfied with the whole concept of "classical versus pop," I'd certainly say that the Star Wars soundtracks count as "classical music" if anything does. :)

I would go further and say that movies are the operas of our time.  Now THERE's a discussion for another thread! ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: CD on November 06, 2009, 08:55:49 AM
Identifying movie soundtracks as a part of the classical tradition seems a bit like the possibility of the U.S. admitting Puerto Rico to the union — it would be a state, but it would be the poorest state in the nation. Soundtracks are good for the purpose they serve.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Valentino on November 06, 2009, 12:57:12 PM
To me anything that's composed and written out for others to perform is "classical music".


But then again Gurn's "Classical corner" narrows the definition down a wee bit.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: drogulus on November 06, 2009, 01:47:00 PM
Quote from: Corey on November 06, 2009, 08:55:49 AM
Identifying movie soundtracks as a part of the classical tradition seems a bit like the possibility of the U.S. admitting Puerto Rico to the union — it would be a state, but it would be the poorest state in the nation. Soundtracks are good for the purpose they serve.

     Yes, they are good for that purpose, but not always in a way that makes them unsuited for other purposes, including presentation in the concert hall. Some film music does meet this standard. Part of the problem with deciding this issue is that film scores are quite variable in their adaptability for use outside the film medium. While some film music may be excellent only within its context, other scores can be adapted to thrive in the larger world.

     But even considering music only within its original context excellence can be recognized without the imputation of a lesser status, if only for the most worthy examples. Film music ought to be seen as an art form in its own right. We just have to get used to the idea, that's all.  :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: John Copeland on November 06, 2009, 03:00:37 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on November 06, 2009, 08:42:57 AM
Since some of us are dissatisfied with the whole concept of "classical versus pop," I'd certainly say that the Star Wars soundtracks count as "classical music" if anything does. :)

I would go further and say that movies are the operas of our time.  Now THERE's a discussion for another thread! ;D

"...movies are the operas of our time..."
This is exactly how I feel about it. 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jwinter on November 06, 2009, 06:39:11 PM
Personally, I'm thinking this is a no-brainer.  How is film music different from music written to accompany a ballet?  Or to accompany some other sort of live visual performance (think Handel's music for the royal fireworks)?  You can argue about the relative quality of pieces, of course, but I can't see how Williams' Imperial March is fundamentally more or less "classical" than, say, the William Tell overture.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: greg on November 06, 2009, 06:57:57 PM
Quote from: Corey on November 06, 2009, 08:55:49 AM
Identifying movie soundtracks as a part of the classical tradition seems a bit like the possibility of the U.S. admitting Puerto Rico to the union — it would be a state, but it would be the poorest state in the nation. Soundtracks are good for the purpose they serve.
Nice!  :D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on November 06, 2009, 11:54:17 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on November 06, 2009, 08:42:57 AM
I would go further and say that movies are the operas of our time.

Or operas were movies of pre-movie era. Operas and movies are audiovisual performances of stories. What shape and style these performances took/take is a matter of available resources, artistic choices of the makers and preferences of the audience.

Star Wars is often called a space opera. How convenient in this discussion!  ;)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Christo on November 07, 2009, 12:12:38 AM
Definitely not!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Frellie on November 07, 2009, 01:09:15 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on November 06, 2009, 08:42:57 AM
Since some of us are dissatisfied with the whole concept of "classical versus pop," I'd certainly say that the Star Wars soundtracks count as "classical music" if anything does. :)

I would go further and say that movies are the operas of our time.  Now THERE's a discussion for another thread! ;D

Oh, don't go there!  :o

If anything, musicals would be the operas of our time. Provided, of course, that the actual operas of our time aren't themselves the operas of our time anymore...  ;)

Movies, then, are the digital equivalent of plays. So the Peer Gynt music by Grieg, for example, is the forerunner of the modern soundtrack, since it was actually performed during a play.

By the way, I thought 'classical music' is the expression Mr. John Doe uses whenever he hears strings. Apart from that, I've no idea what it means.

But if you mean 'art music', than I can't really see how Star Wars tunes could fit the description.



Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Frellie on November 07, 2009, 01:14:06 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 06, 2009, 11:54:17 PM
Star Wars is often called a space opera. How convenient in this discussion!  ;)

More like a soap opera in space...  >:D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on November 07, 2009, 02:33:20 AM
Quote from: Frellie on November 07, 2009, 01:09:15 AM
But if you mean 'art music', than I can't really see how Star Wars tunes could fit the description.

How about Korngold's or Holst's music? Art music?

Quote from: Frellie on November 07, 2009, 01:14:06 AM
More like a soap opera in space...  >:D

I disagree. Sorry.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Frellie on November 07, 2009, 04:31:14 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 07, 2009, 02:33:20 AM
How about Korngold's or Holst's music? Art music?

I would be mercifully inclined to count their scores, on individual merit, and along with those by composers like Prokofiev and RVW, among the exceptions to the rule.

This of course notwithstanding John Williams' admirably irrevocable musical imprint in the heart and mind of many a film lover.  ;)

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on November 07, 2009, 06:20:53 AM
Quote from: Frellie on November 07, 2009, 01:09:15 AM
Oh, don't go there!  :o...
Sorry.  I already did.  See the "Opera and Vocal" forum. ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Dana on November 07, 2009, 11:01:30 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on November 06, 2009, 08:42:57 AMI would go further and say that movies are the operas of our time.  Now THERE's a discussion for another thread! ;D

(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:fy2xKb13JmhUGM:http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/titanic.jpg)

>:D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Dana on November 07, 2009, 11:03:25 PM
Quote from: drogulus on November 05, 2009, 11:44:18 PMIf someone asks me if I like music I might say "I like some music". So, what kind do I like? It doesn't seem to me that "good" music is a kind in any useful sense. So, there will be categories. :)

OK, then I vote that the Star Wars soundtrack is not classical music, because it fits into the "movie soundtrack" category just fine.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on November 08, 2009, 05:12:42 PM
Quote from: Dana on November 07, 2009, 11:01:30 PM
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:fy2xKb13JmhUGM:http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/titanic.jpg)

>:D

I am yet to ever report someones post to a moderator, but you came as close as anybody with this one, Dana. $:)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: marvinbrown on November 09, 2009, 07:19:59 AM
Quote from: paganinio on November 05, 2009, 08:43:55 PM
I think smooth jazz counts as jazz, I might think post-rock counts as rock, but, Star Wars soundtrack (http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Original-Picture-Soundtrack/dp/B000003G8X), or any film soundtrack for that matter, counts as classical. I think a better term would be "contemporary orchestral compositions". But we really don't have an accurate term, other than "film score".




  I will only address the Star Wars soundtrack as it is the title of this thread. I will say that it copies the concept of the "leitmotif"- a melody, tune etc. for each character, idea,  and/or situation and the music does enhance the visual drama.  This concept was developed in Wagner's Ring cycle in a phenomenal way.  So in a sense yes the soundtrack of Star Wars does have some artistic merit so it can be considered classical music.  That said, John Williams is no match for Wagner and I find that with repeated listening the soundtrack wears a little thin to my Wagnerian ears. 

  marvin   
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Catison on November 10, 2009, 04:04:47 AM
The Star Wars scores are full of amazing music, but they are not classical music; they are movie scores.  Movies are not the operas of our time, they are the movies of our time.  The opera of our time is simply that, opera.  I doubt John Adams feels like he is competing with Jerry Bruckheimer.

The unspoken assumption here is that movie scores, because they are not classical music, are somehow lesser forms of art.  That is not correct either.  They are amazing examples of music written for the cinema, and that is important.  Although they are wonderful to listen to on their own, we cannot divorce them from their intended use, which is to comment on a visual story told in widescreen moving images.  That is precisely why they are not classical music; because they were never primarily intended to stand on their own.  To call them classical music would be to deny the very reason why they are great.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: marvinbrown on November 10, 2009, 04:29:45 AM
Quote from: Catison on November 10, 2009, 04:04:47 AM
The Star Wars scores are full of amazing music, but they are not classical music; they are movie scores.  Movies are not the operas of our time, they are the movies of our time.  The opera of our time is simply that, opera.  I doubt John Adams feels like he is competing with Jerry Bruckheimer.

The unspoken assumption here is that movie scores, because they are not classical music, are somehow lesser forms of art.  That is not correct either.  They are amazing examples of music written for the cinema, and that is important.  Although they are wonderful to listen to on their own, we cannot divorce them from their intended use, which is to comment on a visual story told in widescreen moving images.  That is precisely why they are not classical music; because they were never primarily intended to stand on their own.  To call them classical music would be to deny the very reason why they are great.

 Carefull there Catison.  Max Steiner, who wrote the score for the movie King Kong declared that Richard Wagner invented cinema music.  After all the Ring cycle is a series of images, pictures ,if you will, with music.  Cinema theaters today adopts the Wagnerian music drama principal of having the lights dimmed, seats raked and facing the stage/screen and the orchestra hidden in a pit.  This is very similar to the cinemas of today, with surround sound taking the place of the orchestra of course.   That said I do agree with you that there is a distinction between opera/music drama and cinema music but a valid argument can be made to link the two.  

 marvin
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Dana on November 10, 2009, 07:41:22 AM
      Sure there's a link, but whereas the premiere of a new Wagner opera was advertised as the grand new opera by Wagner, no one goes to see the new John Williams movie. All of the similarities you mention between opera and the cinema also exist between opera and musical theater - yet people cringe at calling it classical music. Maybe it's at least a little bit of snobbery by classical music fans, but there's still a distinction - in opera, the music headlines just as much as, if not more than, everything else. That's only sometimes true in musical theater, and it's definitely not true of cinema.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on November 10, 2009, 11:52:59 AM
Movie music can be anything. Rap, classical, rock, tango, jazz,... ...anything. The music in Star Wars is extremely near to classical music. That's why only the most snobbery assholes say it's not classical music.

Quote from: Dana on November 10, 2009, 07:41:22 AM
no one goes to see the new John Williams movie.

There are fans of John Williams who do go to see a movie because of the music. At least they buy the soundtrack. Also, music is considered generally much more important in operas than in movies (music has a VERY important role in Star Wars but who cares about the music in "Dumb and Dumber"?  ;D ). 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: CD on November 10, 2009, 12:42:33 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 10, 2009, 11:52:59 AM
There are fans of John Williams who do go to see a movie because of the music.

Sad.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: MN Dave on November 10, 2009, 12:43:40 PM
I hear a lot of other classics in his "classics".  ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: drogulus on November 10, 2009, 02:14:30 PM
Quote from: Dana on November 07, 2009, 11:03:25 PM
OK, then I vote that the Star Wars soundtrack is not classical music, because it fits into the "movie soundtrack" category just fine.

     So long as category isn't a qualitative judgment I'm not disagreeing. It seems to me, though, that the insistence on keeping music within the lanes isn't just a matter of categorizing. When someones says that film music isn't classical they aren't just making the point that the music wasn't intended for the concert hall, but rather that it isn't appropriate to play it there for some reason, and that is what I disagree with. Instead I would leave it to individual scores. Some excellent film scores simply can't be made into concert pieces because outside the film they lack coherence. For me that is the only issue.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bulldog on November 10, 2009, 03:14:51 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 10, 2009, 11:52:59 AM
Movie music can be anything. Rap, classical, rock, tango, jazz,... ...anything. The music in Star Wars is extremely near to classical music. That's why only the most snobbery assholes say it's not classical music.

By your standards, most of the folks who have voted on this thread are snobbery a**holes.  That must make you a populist a**hole.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Catison on November 10, 2009, 04:36:36 PM
Quote from: drogulus on November 10, 2009, 02:14:30 PM
When someones says that film music isn't classical they aren't just making the point that the music wasn't intended for the concert hall, but rather that it isn't appropriate to play it there for some reason, and that is what I disagree with.

The argument I made above has nothing to do with the concert hall.  It has to do with intended use, and the fact that it distorts the accomplishment of a good film score to compare it with a something like Also Sprach because they were intended to be listened to differently.  There are moments in most great film scores in which the only purpose is to get out of the way of the images on screen.  That would be bad practice for any type of classical music, which is meant to keep the listener's attention at all times.  In fact, there are many times that film scores have failed miserably simply because they draw too much attention to themselves.

I can understand separating the criteria, and judging the Star Wars scores as classical music and as movie scores separately.  The fact that they can be judged well when both standards are applied is a key to understanding their greatness.  But I would be careful calling them classical music, as if that the the primary way they should stand up.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on November 10, 2009, 05:57:06 PM
Well, when playing the Mahler #3 for the third time the other day, my wife did inquire as to what movie it was from. >:D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Dana on November 10, 2009, 09:42:24 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 10, 2009, 11:52:59 AMThere are fans of John Williams who do go to see a movie because of the music. At least they buy the soundtrack.

      I have friends who very closely follow film score chatter, and know all of the projects that any given film composer has on his plate. We walk out of the theater talking about the music just as much as the lightsabers, or the wizardry, or the dinosaurs. We enjoy the music, and get excited about it. We don't go to the movies for the music, and unless you're going to claim to be the first, I don't know a single person who does.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: drogulus on November 11, 2009, 01:43:19 AM
Quote from: Catison on November 10, 2009, 04:36:36 PM
The argument I made above has nothing to do with the concert hall.  It has to do with intended use, and the fact that it distorts the accomplishment of a good film score to compare it with a something like Also Sprach because they were intended to be listened to differently.  There are moments in most great film scores in which the only purpose is to get out of the way of the images on screen.  That would be bad practice for any type of classical music, which is meant to keep the listener's attention at all times.  In fact, there are many times that film scores have failed miserably simply because they draw too much attention to themselves.

I can understand separating the criteria, and judging the Star Wars scores as classical music and as movie scores separately.  The fact that they can be judged well when both standards are applied is a key to understanding their greatness.  But I would be careful calling them classical music, as if that the the primary way they should stand up.

     I agree that most film music will be inadequate for precisely the reason you cite. However I don't think it's all that important what the original context of the music is except to the extent that it exhibits the limitations film music often does: by itself it isn't interesting enough to demand the continuous attention of the concert hall. IOW, it's only significant if the music doesn't hold up. I'm interested in the cases where these obstacles are overcome.

     When I say Star Wars counts as classical I mean it's provenance doesn't exclude it from consideration. And it's so firmly in the classical tradition that it draws attention to an odd fact, that the popularity of this music draws it in where the art cultists don't want it, while the music they prefer has far less appeal. As a part time cultist, I find this amusing. We do love policing our categories, don't we?
  (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/grin.gif)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on November 11, 2009, 03:12:01 AM
Quote from: drogulus on November 05, 2009, 11:44:18 PM


     If someone asks me if I like music I might say "I like some music". So, what kind do I like? It doesn't seem to me that "good" music is a kind in any useful sense. So, there will be categories. :)

One of my favorite Ellington quotes is that good music is "beyond category".  (I'm not all that nuts about the Star Wars sound track, FWIW).  I think Ellington's point was more along the line that a category doesn't necessary make music good or bad.  I acknowledge the need to have some kind of categories, but we have to remember that they are often subjective approximations.  There have been many long threads on this (and other forums) where the heated debate was caused by a dissonance between different people's interpretations of a "category". 

Also, FWIW, doesn't "classical" period, according to some,  cover a time that ran from the latter 18th and early 19th centuries? (you know, Mozart and Beethoven) as opposed to "Romantic" or "Impressionist" or (ugh) "Modern", or "minimalist" or "Avante-Garde or.....   This is another case where "categories" have different interpretations.   (Any use of "classical music"-- check out the lyrics to "Sweet Jane" by Lou Reed). 


Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Benji on November 11, 2009, 08:52:26 AM
Quote from: jwinter on November 06, 2009, 06:39:11 PM
Personally, I'm thinking this is a no-brainer.  How is film music different from music written to accompany a ballet?  Or to accompany some other sort of live visual performance (think Handel's music for the royal fireworks)?  You can argue about the relative quality of pieces, of course, but I can't see how Williams' Imperial March is fundamentally more or less "classical" than, say, the William Tell overture.

My sentiments exactly.

For example, Le Sacre makes perfect sense to me minus the separate art form that is choreography. And in the same way, without commenting on the relative quality of my examples, Williams' music from Star Wars makes perfect sense to me minus the separate art form that is film.

And i'm sure the opposite is true - there is ballet music that cannot be divorced from the choreography and still make sense, and there is film music that cannot stand by itself.

I think the artistry of the composer, whether ballet or film, lies in creating music that tells the story so convincingly that it fires the imagination and carries us along all by itself. And there is plenty of music written for film that does just that, the score for Star Wars included.

So yes, I keep Williams under W in my collection, happily sitting next to Walton and friends.
Title: Re: On no-brainers
Post by: karlhenning on November 11, 2009, 09:32:03 AM
Quote from: jwinter on November 06, 2009, 06:39:11 PM
Personally, I'm thinking this is a no-brainer.  How is film music different from music written to accompany a ballet?

I know you're asking that, prepared for an answer, rather than with the subtext, See? There is no answer . . . .

Once on a time (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8728.msg218444.html#msg218444) I tried making my viewpoint reasonably plain.  Rather than try to re-construct those comments, here is a fresh expression:

I'm writing a ballet.  The duration of the ballet, the component scenes, the sequence, every bar of the music — that is all under the complete control of one person, and that one person is the composer (in this case, myself).

Name me a film where this was ever the case.

Now, one may object that I am working under atypical conditions:  there is as yet no stage director, no choreographer, with whom I am working, and these are people who normally have some input in various details of the music to a ballet.

Two answers:

1]  When (as I hope, or we might say simply if) my piece reaches a point where a company will dance it, and the stage director or choreographer suggests cutting this, changing that, switching the order of these two numbers, taking this dance from Act IV and inserting it into Act II — I have the option of saying, No; this is the way I have written the ballet, and either you dance the piece the way I have written it, or you find some other ballet to do.

I ask again:  Where is the fellow who scored a film, who ever possessed a claim to that option?

2]  Even under more typical ballet-creation conditions, the composer has creative control over the final musical result, to a degree which is simply impossible in film.

You ask, How is film music different from music written to accompany a ballet?

Read Stravinsky's biography where he is working on Orpheus.  Then read Hitchcock's biography where he is working on Pyscho.  In the first case, Stravinsky is in the driver's seat;  in the second, Hitchcock.

Which of the two was a composer?

It is a question on which application of one's brain is not entirely a bad thing . . . .
Title: Re: On no-brainers
Post by: jowcol on November 11, 2009, 02:15:36 PM
In my book, this can go either way, depending on the definitions one users for the terms of "composer", "control" and "classical music"

Quote from: ^ on November 11, 2009, 09:32:03 AM

I'm writing a ballet.  The duration of the ballet, the component scenes, the sequence, every bar of the music — that is all under the complete control of one person, and that one person is the composer (in this case, myself).

Name me a film where this was ever the case.


FWIW, at a minimum, John Carpenter has scored most of his films, and Charlie Chaplain wrote scores for his later ones.  Whether or not these are called "classical" or not is another matter.

Also, if the definition of being classical music means complete control by one person, then having to write to someone else's libretto will mean that most opera is not classical music, and the Magic Flute won't qualify as "classical music", would it not?

Also, a suite or cantata prepared form a film score, (Alexander Nevsky), may still reflect externally dictated circumstances.  So does the Alexander Nevsky cantata qualify?

Quote from: ^ on November 11, 2009, 09:32:03 AM

1]  When (as I hope, or we might say simply if) my piece reaches a point where a company will dance it, and the stage director or choreographer suggests cutting this, changing that, switching the order of these two numbers, taking this dance from Act IV and inserting it into Act II — I have the option of saying, No; this is the way I have written the ballet, and either you dance the piece the way I have written it, or you find some other ballet to do.

I ask again:  Where is the fellow who scored a film, who ever possessed a claim to that option?


Beyond the director as composer, we'd have to look at collaborations, which is essentially what would happen during the ballet.  (Unless the composer was such an egomaniac that his goal wasn't really to support a ballet/film at all.)  Yes, in most cases the writer of a score is brought in late, and is given a very tight framework to work within.  But there HAVE been some good  collaborations in the past.  For example, Prokofiev and Eisenstein in Alexander Nevsky, where the there was in interactive approach where Prokofiev would view the initial cuts, write the score, and Eisentein would edit to the score.  The back and forth was probably more involved in Phillip Glass's Koyaanasqatsi (sp?) where there were several back-and-forth iterations of changing the score the meet the film and vice versa.  Standard Hollywood procedure?  Not at all.  But possible? Definitely.

I'd also say the "classical composers" in Stalinist times didn't have the freedom to quit and leave.  And financial reasons are a driver as well.


Quote from: ^ on November 11, 2009, 09:32:03 AM

2]  Even under more typical ballet-creation conditions, the composer has creative control over the final musical result, to a degree which is simply impossible in film.


One may wonder how much "control" a composer has over any performance of his/her work that they are not conducting or performing themselves.  Although the technology was pretty primitive, Prokofiev had more control of the recording of the Nevsky soundtrack than he has over performances of his work that occur now.   A paper score does not control how a long a fermata is held. 



I'm well aware that most of what I'm suggesting here are the "exceptions that prove the rule", and not the typical ocurrance.  A lot of film scores suck.  A lot of them don't really have much of an identity outside of their given role.  But some do, and are worthy of veneration.



From an aesthetic viewpoint, I believe a lot of great art thrives on limitation-- such as a great Frank Lloyd Wright design is designed in harmony with its settings.  A Soldier's Tale was developed to meet constrained budgets.  I also believe Great art also thrives on collaboration, and the collision of ideas.   Also, at what point is the "control" of a composer permanently tainted when they write for a commission?  Think of all the Oratorios Bach cranked out.  They had a very utilitarian function-- but were also great works of art.  Is Handel's Water music undermined since it was written for a public function that Handel did not have complete  control over?


Karl had a lot of valid points in his discussion, and I think it addresses the overwhelming majority of film scores today, and the unfortunate practices of the industry.  I just wanted to explore some of the boundary conditions a bit further.
Title: Re: On no-brainers
Post by: karlhenning on November 11, 2009, 02:23:04 PM
Very much enjoyed your entire post there.  For now, will only comment on:

Quote from: jowcol on November 11, 2009, 02:15:36 PM
I'm well aware that most of what I'm suggesting here are the "exceptions that prove the rule", and not the typical ocurrance.  A lot of film scores suck.  A lot of them don't really have much of an identity outside of their given role.  But some do, and are worthy of veneration.

It's been relatively recently that I have watched Psycho, North by Northwest and Vertigo, paying particular attention to the music;  very fine music, sensitively scored, certainly 'venerable' in your sense.

Not quite as complete or 'functionally independent' a musical entity as any of your Stravinsky ballets (for reasons already discussed);  but commendable work.
Title: Re: On no-brainers
Post by: Benji on November 11, 2009, 02:26:25 PM
Quote from: jowcol on November 11, 2009, 02:15:36 PM
Beyond the director as composer, we'd have to look at collaborations, which is essentially what would happen during the ballet.  (Unless the composer was such an egomaniac that his goal wasn't really to support a ballet/film at all.)  Yes, in most cases the writer of a score is brought in late, and is given a very tight framework to work within.  But there HAVE been some good  collaborations in the past.  For example, Prokofiev and Eisenstein in Alexander Nevsky, where the there was in interactive approach where Prokofiev would view the initial cuts, write the score, and Eisentein would edit to the score.  The back and forth was probably more involved in Phillip Glass's Koyaanasqatsi (sp?) where there were several back-and-forth iterations of changing the score the meet the film and vice versa.  Standard Hollywood procedure?  Not at all.  But possible? Definitely.

Indeed, it does happen. Spielberg cut the climactic scenes of E.T. to John Williams' score, for example, and also, I believe, also parts of Close Encounters, resulting in two great examples of synergy in the cinematic arts.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on November 11, 2009, 05:05:23 PM
One more quick thought on the notion of "control".  Sometimes I think it's limiting for an artist to have I too much control-- I think it's often beneficial for an artist to get shoved out of their comfort zone.   It's one thing to solve a problem of your own creation.  It often takes a much greater reach to creatively address issues that are are outside of your control.

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Szykneij on November 11, 2009, 05:32:18 PM
I don't have the Star Wars soundtrack to refer to, but I've pulled some CDs off my shelf.

The first is the soundtrack to "The Red Violin". The music is composed by John Corigliano with Joshua Bell as the violin soloist. Most of the tracks are (as is true of many of the soundtrack CDs I have) distinct individual pieces not heard in their entirety in the film. If I had to categorize this music, I would have trouble coming up with any classification other than "classical". Given the nature of the film's storyline, it's the only logical type of music to use. Much the same is true of "The Village" soundtrack, composed by James Newton Howard with Hilary Hahn as the soloist.

Specifically regarding John Williams, there is a track on the "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban" soundtrack entitled "Mischief Managed" that is a nicely-arranged medley of the various themes used in the film. Again, because of the orchestration and compositional techniques employed, I would have to put it in the "classical" category.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Dana on November 11, 2009, 06:08:57 PM
Quote from: Szykniej on November 11, 2009, 05:32:18 PM
Specifically regarding John Williams, there is a track on the "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban" soundtrack entitled "Mischief Managed" that is a nicely-arranged medley of the various themes used in the film. Again, because of the orchestration and compositional techniques employed, I would have to put it in the "classical" category.

      That's typical of John Williams, and I think it's becoming more commonplace - to present thematic vignettes on the soundtrack rather than directly lift the music off of the screen (although there's still plenty of that going on too). You're right - this is no different than Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet Suites.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on November 12, 2009, 02:45:27 AM
Quote from: jowcol on November 11, 2009, 05:05:23 PM
One more quick thought on the notion of "control".


You're fixing, though, on one sense of "control."  One that (perhaps) challenges your comfort-zone ; )


My points about design;  and other points about wherein the typical film-scorer's toolbox and fund of talent consist, and how that compares to what I shall for simplicity's sake call A Proper Composer (allowing for the fact that there is some overlap between the sets [ film-scorers ] and [ Proper Composers ];  these largely stand.

Yes, if you like, a John Williams medley "is no different than Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet Suites";  but (a) I have never heard yet a two-hour John Williams composition that can be compared (not that it would compare favorably) with the whole of Prokofiev's Opus 64 (and there are reasons);  and his recent piece for harp and orchestra compares only dismally with even the least of Prokofiev's works for soloist and orchestra (and there are reasons).

Another point (if you like):  if scoring for a film is no different compositionally, let's take Vaughan Williams.  He wrote the score for Scott of the Antarctic;  and he adapted the music so that it formed his seventh symphony.

Why did he bother, if the film score was already a complete composition?
Title: Re: On no-brainers
Post by: karlhenning on November 12, 2009, 05:37:21 AM
Quote from: jowcol on November 11, 2009, 02:15:36 PM
In my book, this can go either way, depending on the definitions one users for the terms of "composer", "control" and "classical music"

FWIW, at a minimum, John Carpenter has scored most of his films, and Charlie Chaplin wrote scores for his later ones.  Whether or not these are called "classical" or not is another matter.

As to John Carpenter, I have no opinion, having either heard none of his music, or not having noticed it if I have.

In Chaplin's case . . . well, Henry VIII wrote some madrigals, and that's just the same as Monteverdi, isn't it? ; )

Seriously, there are true Renaissance men who attain professional competency in disciplines outside their central vocation.  I still think we find value in distinguishing good work, from that of dilettantes;  and one tendency in threads like this which is appallingly common, is the Isn't it all the same? mindset.  Culture is a filter, it is a process of discerning distinctions.

Quote from: jowcolAlso, if the definition of being classical music means complete control by one person, then having to write to someone else's libretto will mean that most opera is not classical music, and the Magic Flute won't qualify as "classical music", would it not?

Well, you're blurring things by proposing this one aspect as a definition.  And you see where that gets the thread with the string of sentimentalist resonance which followed upon that.

In the spirit of culture being a matter of cultivating discernment, my points included (a) that John Williams (specifically) has not demonstrated the command of technique which is exemplified in (e.g.) a complete Prokofiev ballet, or a complete Stravinsky ballet [and you recall that my entry point in the conversation was a statement to the effect that "it's just the same as a ballet"], (b) that the composition which is a film is the product of direction and editing, and (c) that the work of a film scorer is not the composition of a large-scale work which stands on its own, but the provision of sonic elements which must serve someone else's composition, or they fail of their purpose.

Your libretto example is simply a herring of red.  Mozart did not write the libretti, but he chose them;  and the opera is still his composition.

Quote from: jowcolAlso, a suite or cantata prepared form a film score, (Alexander Nevsky), may still reflect externally dictated circumstances.  So does the Alexander Nevsky cantata qualify?

You want to look at a chunk of ice, and you seem to argue that this bit of ice which came from the iceberg which sank the Titanic is no different than this cube which I've extracted from my freezer.  Yes, it's all frozen water; so?

Do I think that the Aleksandr Nevsky Cantata is a fine concert work?  Sure.  That is a function of who wrote the music, and the experience and talent he brought to the project.  How long does the Aleksandr Nevsky Cantata run by the clock?  Call it half an hour.  And it is music written for a single film.  Where is a half hour of music which John Williams wrote for any one film, which is a free-standing concert work of the stature of the Aleksandr Nevsky Cantata?  Please, I hear all these opinions that Williams is just as great a composer as Prokofiev, that his music is every bit as good (and a great deal more famous, to boot);  I am keen to hear music of a quality to substantiate these claims.

[snip]

Quote from: jowcolFrom an aesthetic viewpoint, I believe a lot of great art thrives on limitation-- such as a great Frank Lloyd Wright design is designed in harmony with its settings....

Sure.  But this is a question of a capable and talented artist responding creatively to external limitations.  One of my points is that in John Williams's case, the limitations are not external.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on November 12, 2009, 06:52:50 AM
This thread should be about the music of Star Wars, not about other music by John Williams or music by other composers. For me the music of Star Wars movies is close enough classical music to be called that. John Williams has wrote less classical music in some other movies (e.g. "Catch Me If You Can") but that's beyond this discussion.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on November 12, 2009, 07:04:38 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 12, 2009, 06:52:50 AM
This thread should be about the music of Star Wars, not about other music by John Williams or music by other composers.

That's an opinion, but I am a free-thinker.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Franco on November 12, 2009, 07:33:17 AM
Short answer: no.

Having said that, Shostakovich and Prokoviev have written film scores which transcend the genre; John Williams has not.

There is a Holllywood composer who writes music that verges on Classical, Elliott Goldenthal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliot_Goldenthal).
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Benji on November 12, 2009, 08:01:46 AM
Quote from: Franco on November 12, 2009, 07:33:17 AM

There is a Holllywood composer who writes music that verges on Classical, Elliott Goldenthal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliot_Goldenthal).

I think I started a thread on Goldenthal on this forum, or perhaps the last incarnation of it. He was taught by Copland and Corigliano, not that you can hear it in his musical output, which is wonderfully eclectic. He is most definitely a composer who isn't interested in definitions, having turned his hand to Opera, Ballet, an Oratorio, and even a Broadway show, in addition to his film scores (which are few and far between anyway). The man is, simply, a composer - that's about the only label that will stick.

Sorry, a wee bit of OT idolisation there. Carry on!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Dana on November 12, 2009, 10:01:06 AM
Quote from: ^ on November 12, 2009, 02:45:27 AMYes, if you like, a John Williams medley "is no different than Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet Suites";  but (a) I have never heard yet a two-hour John Williams composition that can be compared (not that it would compare favorably) with the whole of Prokofiev's Opus 64 (and there are reasons);  and his recent piece for harp and orchestra compares only dismally with even the least of Prokofiev's works for soloist and orchestra (and there are reasons).

      Oh. Well if we're going to require that music be good to be considered classical, I'd like to bring up the question of whether or not Elgar counts as classical music **Ducks!** I agree, JW will never be half the composer that Prokofiev was, among others, but the question of whether or not music is good is irrelevant to categorization.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on November 12, 2009, 10:17:38 AM
Quote from: Dana on November 12, 2009, 10:01:06 AM
      Oh. Well if we're going to require that music be good to be considered classical, I'd like to bring up the question of whether or not Elgar counts as classical music **Ducks!** I agree, JW will never be half the composer that Prokofiev was, among others, but the question of whether or not music is good is irrelevant to categorization.

Yours is a valid point (and of course this was in jowcol's mix, too, though I've been after other fish).

I still vote No, because it best reflects my full answer which is: Yes, but then so is Richard Clayderman.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on November 12, 2009, 10:19:43 AM
Or, No, it is Pops.

(The Would Jimmy Levine conduct it?  Or Would John Williams conduct it? ramifications.)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on November 12, 2009, 10:59:47 AM
(Note = I've not really weighed in on John Williams-- it doesn't matter to me how he's categorized-- still sounds the same.  I'm not nuts about him- but that's my own view.  For those that love his work, play it loud and play it proud! )

I won't go line by line on Karl's responses above-- they are all valid observations in my book, and a lot of them are very much in line the kind of questions I was posing.   I also agree that, on the whole, the general statements he made were accurate about the state of film scoring on the whole.


A lot of the points I had made earlier (e.g. the Magic Flute) were Reducto al absurdum points to illustrate how some of the definitions we were using were open to interpretation, and how a narrow one can lead to some interesting consequences.   

Karl has posed some very valid questions about value and cultural discernment that are indeed relevant, although those types of value judgments I try to avoid.  We'll never get a consensus here on the best 5 composers- I consider these discussions as intractible, unprovable assertions..  I'd certainly take Prokofiev or Glass over JW.  Your mileage may vary.  Also, I'd say time is a filter.  I'm sure a lot of crap was written in the classical era that we ignore now.  You can add another dimension our how cultural views and criticism elevates and demotes composers long after they started decomposing. 

Karl has also, I think, hit on a major point of consideration here:
<snip>
that the composition which is a film is the product of direction and editing, and (c) that the work of a film scorer is not the composition of a large-scale work which stands on its own, but the provision of sonic elements which must serve someone else's composition, or they fail of their purpose.
<snip>
and
<snip>
Another point (if you like):  if scoring for a film is no different compositionally, let's take Vaughan Williams.  He wrote the score for Scott of the Antarctic;  and he adapted the music so that it formed his seventh symphony.

Why did he bother, if the film score was already a complete composition?
<snip>

It seems to me that we have come to the "crux of the biscuit".  What was the goal of the work? Performance as a stand alone work of music?  Something to support a Ballet?  A collection of incidental music to enhance a film, play, or masque?  A lot of the stuff we call "classical" was what I'd call "applied" music.  Sometimes it's possible to over-romanticize the role of an artist.  For all of the time we spend praising Shakespeare and Dickens for their contributions to literature (and I LOVE both), it's important to remember that they were essentially hacks writing for a commercial audience. 

I would fully agree that a ballet or film score is an "applied" form or composition.  It's immediate value depends on how well it serves it's application.  It's lasting value would depend more on some more intrinsic notions of "goodness" that we can all nod our heads about, but not agree on specifics.  It's possible that a composer could write an incredible score for a ballet (or film) that, on its own terms, but did a terrible job supporting the ballet, film or whatever.  Do we call it a success?  Depends on what criteria we choose.

Karl's citing of the Antarctica symphony is an excellent one.  I could also flip that around and ask why Prokofiev needed to create suites for Romeo and Juliet if the Ballet score was a completely self realized creation.   It comes to the application.  Form follows function.  Something written for an application may not be as good as a stand alone performance.  Stravinksy's Ballets are interesting in how they flirt in sides of the camp.  But even he saw fit to create suites for the Firebird.

Just a couple of other thoughts-- Karl-- thanks a lot for your comments.  The biggest reason I participate in forums like this is to get pushed out of my comfort zone and look at music from other perspectives. 


The second is a philosophical digression about "definitions" that you may want to skip if you haven't already been bored to death.  It does highlight how the slipperiness of definitions can lead the unwary in circles.   I forget which sutra this is from, but here goes:

A man comes to study with the  Buddha and is having a difficult time understanding his deas.  The Buddha welcomes him but does not face his questions rather he asks him about his journey to meet him.  The Buddha asks 'how did you get here' and the man replies ' on a chariot', the Buddha then says 'I'm sorry but I don't know what a chariot is, can you describe it to me?' The fellow proceeds to tell him how a chariot is constructed and its layout from axel, wheels, buckboard, shroud to harness and horses.  The Buddha takes this in and says ' so all of these things together make a chariot?  When is it no longer a chariot?  When you take away the wheels is it no longer a chariot or the buckboard or the axel?  At what point does it become or not become a chariot?  This is a conglomeration of things you call a chariot but what really is the chariot?'

At this point the man is so flustered that he agrees that there is really no such thing as a chariot, and that a chariot was just an abstraction.

At that point the Buddha asked him, "You ARE here, aren't you?  If a chariot  just an abstraction, then how did you get here?"

So, let me try, having muddied the waters as much as possible, to return to the thread.  Does the Star Wars Soundtrack count as classical music?
We've bandied the term about, and found a lot of different considerations in "classical music", including the goal of the music, and some inherent notions of goodness and quality.  After a while, the term seems to be empty and devoid of meaning- it falls apart under scrutiny.  But hopefully, like with that poor man's chariot, we've gotten somewhere-- a lot of interesting questions about the role of music, film and ballet.  (Okay, at least they were interesting to me.)   

For the original question, I'll stay true to form and reply with a question.  Why was there a need to categorize JWs music?  For where it should be listed at a music store?  To see if has work should show up on a regular symphony or Pop's symphony's program?

Where did you want the chariot to take you?




Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on November 12, 2009, 11:02:35 AM
Quote from: ^ on November 12, 2009, 10:17:38 AM
Yours is a valid point (and of course this was in jowcol's mix, too, though I've been after other fish).

I still vote No, because it best reflects my full answer which is: Yes, but then so is Richard Clayderman.


ARRGGGHHH!  A touch I do confess!    I'm not even sure if Richard Clayderman belongs to the animal kingdom!

(And apologies to any RC fans out there..... your mileage may vary..)

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on November 12, 2009, 11:24:51 AM
Excellent post, thanks . . . one answer I'll hazard, though . . . .

Quote from: jowcol on November 12, 2009, 10:59:47 AM
Karl's citing of the Antarctica symphony is an excellent one.  I could also flip that around and ask why Prokofiev needed to create suites for Romeo and Juliet if the Ballet score was a completely self realized creation.

Few orchestras, probably, will program the entire ballet as a concert program (although I claim as a virtue of the piece that it will wear that use handsomely).  The Suites are therefore a means of broadening the audience for the music (remember that Prokofiev wrote this before the days of compact discs . . . probably even before there would be realistic possibility of boxed LPs with the complete ballet).  In his context, Suites were a means for ballet music to have some life in the concert hall, and outside the theatre.

Heck, I should even consent to a suite from White Nights for that purpose ; )
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on November 12, 2009, 11:46:34 AM
Quote from: Dana on November 12, 2009, 10:01:06 AM
      Oh. Well if we're going to require that music be good to be considered classical, I'd like to bring up the question of whether or not Elgar counts as classical music

To me Elgar is the greatest classical composer ever and John Williams is the greatest movie composer ever. Each to his/her own.  0:)




Quote from: Dana on November 12, 2009, 10:01:06 AMJW will never be half the composer that Prokofiev was, among others, but the question of whether or not music is good is irrelevant to categorization.

Well, it is something to be half of Prokofiev, isn't it?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on November 12, 2009, 11:53:43 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 12, 2009, 11:46:34 AM
Well, it is something to be half of Prokofiev, isn't it?

It would be; but as Dana said:

Quote from: DanaJW will never be half the composer that Prokofiev was.

To even that moiety, John Williams must despair of aspiring.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on November 12, 2009, 12:05:09 PM
Quote from: ^ on November 12, 2009, 11:53:43 AM
It would be; but as Dana said:

Aah, Dana is God and always right? Stupid me...

To me John Williams is easily more than half of Prokofiev.

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Diletante on November 12, 2009, 12:29:17 PM
Which half are we talking about? :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on November 12, 2009, 12:41:09 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 12, 2009, 12:05:09 PM
Stupid me...

If you say so, Poju.

This is no matter of Dana's alleged divinity, but of your not reading what Dana said.  Your statement proposed a sort of agreement, but what you were 'agreeing' to was not Dana's statement.  If you wish to summarize this as stupidity on your part, I should call it both accurate, and a becoming humility on your part.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on November 12, 2009, 01:01:11 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 12, 2009, 12:05:09 PM

To me John Williams is easily more than half of Prokofiev.


So what does it matter what others think?  When you listen, its YOUR ears that listen, not Dana's, Karl's or my own.   In the words of the noted philosopher James Hendrix:

"I'm the one who's got to die when it's time for me to die.
So let me live my life the way I want to."

It seems to be inevitable that there is stuff we love that others won't get.   But that is the natural order.   When you find something that really moves you, it is a cause for celebration, no matter what others think.   There is no need to feel threatened or guilty.

I assure you, for each person on this forum, I'm bound to have something on my mp3 playe,r, something I really like,  that the other person will hate and find lacking in musical merit. Which is an idea that brings a smile to my face every time I think about it.






Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on November 12, 2009, 06:37:38 PM
Some very good points here by various GMGers.  However, I'm not sure I agree with the unstated assumption some people seem to be making, that is, that "classical music" equals "music I like" or "music of high quality."  And when we talk about living composers, for film or other formats, then terminology becomes REALLY problematic!  How can it be "classical" when its composer is still alive and composing?

(Of course, this is heresy on a board dedicated to classical music! :o ;D)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Catison on November 12, 2009, 07:02:35 PM
Perhaps an easy summary is that a composer of classical music has others in his service, but a film composer writes movie scores in the service of others.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: greg on November 12, 2009, 07:20:34 PM
What about rock artists that write rock songs for movies? I would consider those film scores (or part of a film score) as well- but, if originally not written for a movie, but instead just released on an album instead, I would consider them just rock songs.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: drogulus on November 12, 2009, 07:49:53 PM

     I wasn't arguing that bleeding chunks of film music are the equivalent of symphonies. It's not cheating for Vaughan Williams to rework his film score into an appropriate form and the same applies to the suites made by Walton, Williams, and Herrman. Nor do you have to think that Williams is as impressive in the concert hall as he is in film. Incidentally, I don't think Herrman has really found a home in the concert hall. His best film music is even more specialized than is ordinarily the case, due to the extraordinary lengths he went to to custom fit it to particular strips of film.* Yet I don't hesitate to call him a great composer.

     * Though it's also the case that Hitchcock cut his film to the music on occasion, which shows the true stature of Herrman. Did Eisenstein do that for Prokofiev? Did Olivier do that for Walton?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on November 12, 2009, 07:54:29 PM
Quote from: Greg on November 12, 2009, 07:20:34 PM
What about rock artists that write rock songs for movies? I would consider those film scores (or part of a film score) as well- but, if originally not written for a movie, but instead just released on an album instead, I would consider them just rock songs.

Not at this end, Greg.  I let some choral works slide like in the LOTR soundtracks, but the stuff tacked on at the end of the discs does not count.  I hear you though.  Like the title track in the movie In the Name of the Father by Bono.....great piece and blew the rest of the music away, but still not part of the score for me. 

The Academy also splits these two into separate categories:

Music (Score)
Music (Song)

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on November 12, 2009, 08:12:04 PM
Quote from: drogulus on November 12, 2009, 07:49:53 PM
     I wasn't arguing that bleeding chunks of film music are the equivalent of symphonies. It's not cheating for Vaughan Williams to rework his film score into an appropriate form and the same applies to the suites made by Walton, Williams, and Herrman. Nor do you have to think that Williams is as impressive in the concert hall as he is in film. Incidentally, I don't think Herrman has really found a home in the concert hall. His best film music is even more specialized than is ordinarily the case, due to the extraordinary lengths he went to to custom fit it to particular strips of film.* Yet I don't hesitate to call him a great composer.

     * Though it's also the case that Hitchcock cut his film to the music on occasion, which shows the true stature of Herrman. Did Eisenstein do that for Prokofiev? Did Olivier do that for Walton?

And Hermann seems to split them as well:

Bernard Herrmann was active as a musician on several levels. He left behind a legacy of major film scores, recordings for many labels, and concert works. In many respects he remains the most influential of all composers writing for film. Bernard commented that 'many great composers of whatever nationality — Auric, Bliss, Copland, Frankel, Prokofiev, Rota, Shostakovich, Walton — composed for the cinema, as but one aspect of their creative output.'

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on November 12, 2009, 08:21:48 PM
On the other hand, these folks seem to not split these two:

http://www.americanclassicalmusic.org/03/inductees/Williams/index.html

Note the piece that is featured for sampling.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Dana on November 12, 2009, 08:45:52 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on November 12, 2009, 12:05:09 PMAah, Dana is God and always right?

FINALLY, someone who gets it...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: drogulus on November 12, 2009, 10:04:45 PM

     The case of Sinfonia Antartica is very different, not just from the Williams example but also from anything Walton wrote as well. I have recordings of suites taken from music Walton wrote for Henry V and Richard III. They could be played in the concert hall, and I'm sure they have been. I would enjoy hearing them there, and they would not be out of place. But Sinfonia Antartica is so exceptional that I'd hesitate to make a rule based on it.

     I see the rules and categories as advisory, and not facts of nature. One shouldn't expect film music to be concert music, even if it can be. And Vaughan Williams can do what he wants.*  0:)


     * I guess that's a non-rule rule.  :D
     
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on November 13, 2009, 04:23:32 AM
Quote from: drogulus on November 12, 2009, 07:49:53 PM
     I wasn't arguing that bleeding chunks of film music are the equivalent of symphonies. It's not cheating for Vaughan Williams to rework his film score into an appropriate form and the same applies to the suites made by Walton, Williams, and Herrman. Nor do you have to think that Williams is as impressive in the concert hall as he is in film. Incidentally, I don't think Herrman has really found a home in the concert hall. His best film music is even more specialized than is ordinarily the case, due to the extraordinary lengths he went to to custom fit it to particular strips of film.* Yet I don't hesitate to call him a great composer.

Just a couple of logical footnotes.  Your lack of hesitation in this is one thing, the larger question, another.  For my part, I don't hesitate to call Hermann a great scorer of film ; )

And of course, whether or not Hermann is found to be a great composer, Williams could still be a hack.  If Hermann had composed the piece Williams recently wrote, and which I heard in Symphony, I should call Hermann a hack, too — And if Hermann's concert music is no better than On Willows and Birches, why, no wonder his music hasn't found a home in the concert hall ; )


Quote from: Ernie* Though it's also the case that Hitchcock cut his film to the music on occasion, which shows the true stature of Herrman. Did Eisenstein do that for Prokofiev? Did Olivier do that for Walton?

Eisenstein didn't have to. Prokofiev was legendary for creating music of the exact length required.  Eisenstein would tell him x frames, and the next morning, Prokofiev brought in the music required.  Hah! ; )
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on November 13, 2009, 04:27:09 AM
Quote from: Bogey on November 12, 2009, 08:12:04 PM
And Hermann seems to split them as well:

Bernard Herrmann was active as a musician on several levels. He left behind a legacy of major film scores, recordings for many labels, and concert works. In many respects he remains the most influential of all composers writing for film. Bernard commented that 'many great composers of whatever nationality — Auric, Bliss, Copland, Frankel, Prokofiev, Rota, Shostakovich, Walton — composed for the cinema, as but one aspect of their creative output.'

It is a special task, and to do it well is a fine accomplishment.  My point (one of 'em, anyway) is that someone who furnishes great film scores is certainly possessed of a fine talent.  This talent may or may not overlap with mastery of the art of composition.

BTW, an old friend of mine who studied film music at Berklee is on substantially the same page with me on this.

(Just saying.)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2009, 04:50:53 AM

As close as I come in this matter is looking at composer's original intent, Karl.  In short, you have to ask the composer.  I believe only they have the final say.  So, getting back to the original question, and dealing only with the Star Wars' piece, you would have to ask Johnny Williams IMO.    Any other answer except from him should be checked for on the Op. Ed. page IMO.  ;) 

For example, Danny Elfman might say that a certain composition he wrote for the Batman score was originally a classical piece he wrote for a quintet, but tweaked it a bit for a scene in a movie.  From the standpoint it was a classical piece modified to be a score piece.  You can choose the score side or the classical side, or in my case just see it for what it is as defined by the composer and not put it in either camp.  However, he may of used a classical piece he composed just as is for the movie and in that case he may say it was a classical piece I wrote that worked for that scene.  So, it is a classical piece, being no different then the Mozart pieces that they used in Amadeus.  Or, another movie he may say that he wrote a completely new score for the movie.  In this case it is a movie score.  So we come back to original intent. 

Either way, the question makes for good banter....
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2009, 04:56:30 AM
Oh, and one more point.  It is nice when music that was written originally for a movie can be enjoyed without the visual component, but it is not necessary for that to be the goal of the composer.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on November 13, 2009, 04:57:51 AM
Excellent points, Bill.

My marginalia here will be a quote from (I think) Aristotle:  Excellence is not an act, but a habit.

Your point on the value of the composer's intent is perfectly valid — Stravinsky had entirely different intents with the Circus Polka for a Young Elephant than he had with Oedipus Rex.  That point, though, seems trumped by the matter of compositional mastery.  That mastery will not be any one act, it will not materialize out of a composer's intent for this or that project.  The readiness is all;  and that mastery has either been established by prior habit, or it ain't there.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on November 13, 2009, 05:12:01 AM
Quote from: Bogey on November 13, 2009, 04:56:30 AM
Oh, and one more point.  It is nice when music that was written originally for a movie can be enjoyed without the visual component, but it is not necessary for that to be the goal of the composer.

I consider that point to be contained within my discussion of the differences between writing a ballet and scoring a film.

There is (at least generally) a difference, too, in that music in film often works best, the less it draws attention to itself (one obvious respect in which large stretches of film music fail in concert).  Where music in ballet is a core component of the genre.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2009, 05:12:01 AM
Quote from: ^ on November 13, 2009, 04:57:51 AM
Excellent points, Bill.

My marginalia here will be a quote from (I think) Aristotle:  Excellence is not an act, but a habit.

Your point on the value of the composer's intent is perfectly valid — Stravinsky had entirely different intents with the Circus Polka for a Young Elephant than he had with Oedipus Rex.  That point, though, seems trumped by the matter of compositional mastery.  That mastery will not be any one act, it will not materialize out of a composer's intent for this or that project.  The readiness is all;  and that mastery has either been established by prior habit, or it ain't there.[/color]

Ah.  That is why some of my film scores trump pieces on my classical shelf. :D  Well put.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Franco on November 13, 2009, 05:45:11 AM
Reading this thread I have realized that I own no film music CDs, other than some soundtracks that have songs I like, e.g. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid - and probably less than ten of those.  This is in a collection of about 5,000 CDs.

Film scores without the movie are not interesting to me, in fact, movies are hardly interesting to me to begin with, and I sure don't go to see a movie for the music - I've seen no commercial releases  this year, and when I do see a movie it is on DVD, never in the theater. 

The score is very incidental to my enjoyment and can enhance the experience, but, more often than not, it is too busy and adds nothing but a distraction to the film - kind of like a aural mosquito.

So, I guess if the evidence of one person who loves Classical music, but has no affection for film scores counts as proof of anything, it is that, at least for this person, film scores have no connection to Classical music and have more in common with other kinds of Popular music.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on November 13, 2009, 06:55:21 AM
Quote from: jowcol on November 12, 2009, 01:01:11 PM
So what does it matter what others think?

It seems to matter a lot to some people what I think since they try so hard to prove me wrong. Frankly, I don't understand why. Most of the time I don't react to karl's remarks as it would be pointless waste of time. I let him have his taste.

Quote from: jowcol on November 12, 2009, 01:01:11 PMWhen you listen, its YOUR ears that listen, not Dana's, Karl's or my own.

Yes.  :D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2009, 07:02:09 AM
Quote from: Franco on November 13, 2009, 05:45:11 AM
Reading this thread I have realized that I own no film music CDs, other than some soundtracks that have songs I like, e.g. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid - and probably less than ten of those.  This is in a collection of about 5,000 CDs.

Film scores without the movie are not interesting to me, in fact, movies are hardly interesting to me to begin with, and I sure don't go to see a movie for the music - I've seen no commercial releases  this year, and when I do see a movie it is on DVD, never in the theater. 

The score is very incidental to my enjoyment and can enhance the experience, but, more often than not, it is too busy and adds nothing but a distraction to the film - kind of like a aural mosquito.

So, I guess if the evidence of one person who loves Classical music, but has no affection for film scores counts as proof of anything, it is that, at least for this person, film scores have no connection to Classical music and have more in common with other kinds of Popular music.

I could have written this myself... :) (except I don't even have 10, nor even 1...)

8)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on November 13, 2009, 08:16:52 AM
Quote from: ^ on November 13, 2009, 05:12:01 AM

[size=3 size]

There is (at least generally) a difference, too, in that music in film often works best, the less it draws attention to itself (one obvious respect in which large stretches of film music fail in concert).  Where music in ballet is a core component of the genre.

This is a REALLY good point.  (And could also apply to other types of incidental music).  Although I would hazard that some choreographers would feel that music plays a supporting role in ballet.   I'm sure composers tend to feel differently. 

One of the scores/soundtracks I have problems with is the Lord of the Rings movies.  The way the sound is mixed, the score simply drowns out some of the dialog, and repeatedly calls attention to itself. 

One also needs to admire when a director knows when NOT to use music , and when the ambient sound does a better job for framing the mood.  The spacewalk scenes in 2001 were much more intense without music, but the hissing of air sounding instead.

I'd also toss out the notion that film scores are a great opportunity to apply the Leitmotiv.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on November 13, 2009, 08:25:41 AM
Quote from: Franco on November 13, 2009, 05:45:11 AM
Reading this thread I have realized that I own no film music CDs, other than some soundtracks that have songs I like, e.g. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid - and probably less than ten of those.  This is in a collection of about 5,000 CDs.

Film scores without the movie are not interesting to me, in fact, movies are hardly interesting to me to begin with, and I sure don't go to see a movie for the music - I've seen no commercial releases  this year, and when I do see a movie it is on DVD, never in the theater. 


One interesting case in the film score for Jerry Goldsmith's Alien. As it turns out, much of the music he wrote for the movie was not used by the director (who substituted some of Goldsmith's other music, and even a snippet of Hanson for some of the original score.)  There have been multiple versions of the "sound track" released, with different degrees of fidelity to Goldsmith's intentions. 

I must admit I don't like even the whole Goldsmith score as a stand alone work (I edited it for my mp3 player), but some of the more lyrical parts of the score I adore, and it really pulled me into that movie.  I HAD to buy the score after seeing the movie.  There have been some other cases for me, but I'll also confess it's not a large part of my collection. 


Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: drogulus on November 13, 2009, 02:19:10 PM
Quote from: ^ on November 13, 2009, 04:23:32 AM


[/font]
Eisenstein didn't have to. Prokofiev was legendary for creating music of the exact length required.  Eisenstein would tell him x frames, and the next morning, Prokofiev brought in the music required.  Hah! ; )

     That's what film composers are supposed to do, and Herrman was a master at just that.

   
Quote from: ^ on November 13, 2009, 04:27:09 AM
It is a special task, and to do it well is a fine accomplishment.  My point (one of 'em, anyway) is that someone who furnishes great film scores is certainly possessed of a fine talent.  This talent may or may not overlap with mastery of the art of composition.



     I agree with you here. Most film music can't make it in a concert hall. I'm concerned with a small subset that does work there. I'm saying that success in the concert hall answers the question for me, not that I want to flood concert halls with film music. I want film music to stay put because it doesn't work elsewhere, and not because it originated in a film score, even though that is often why it doesn't work.

Quote from: jowcol on November 13, 2009, 08:16:52 AM

One also needs to admire when a director knows when NOT to use music , and when the ambient sound does a better job for framing the mood.  The spacewalk scenes in 2001 were much more intense without music, but the hissing of air sounding instead.



     I agree (again!). (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/sad.gif)

     And then there's The Birds.


     (http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7440/playgroundf.jpg)

      It's not realistic ambient sound, and it's not exactly music, either.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Teresa on December 10, 2009, 07:01:18 PM
Excellent points everyone both pro and con.  However I am curious if those who say they own no film music are aware that Alexander Nevsky and Lt. Kiji are film scores by Prokofiev.  I wonder how they could build a classical collection without film music by Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Walton, Copland and others.  I find those statements very curious.

IMHO orchestral film music is a branch of classical music not much different than opera or ballet.  Some of my favorite film composers are Shostakovich and Prokofiev but I also love John Williams, Bernard Herrmann and Miklos Rozsa. 

I think film music works best when arranged into orchestral suites, for example John Williams' "Close Encounters of the Third Kind Suite" at just over 12 minutes is one of my favorite compositions of the 20th century. 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Catison on December 10, 2009, 08:42:14 PM
Quote from: Teresa on December 10, 2009, 07:01:18 PM
I think film music works best when arranged into orchestral suites, for example John Williams' "Close Encounters of the Third Kind Suite" at just over 12 minutes is one of my favorite compositions of the 20th century.

Depends on the context.  Obviously, the Close Encounters Suite isn't going to work well for the movie.  For the concert hall, it is preferable.  Some people like one version, some the other.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 15, 2009, 03:15:33 PM
I'm shocked to see "yes" votes.  Though I realize there's an essential similarity of type between movie scores and incidental theatre music, the gulf between Williams's pumped-up accents for on-screen action and Jen-you-whine classical musique seems much vaster than the gulf between classical music and good jazz.  I mean, pole dancing at a strip club has some essential similarities to classical ballet...but are they really quite the same?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Benji on December 15, 2009, 03:39:25 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 15, 2009, 03:15:33 PM
I'm shocked to see "yes" votes.  Though I realize there's an essential similarity of type between movie scores and incidental theatre music, the gulf between Williams's pumped-up accents for on-screen action and Jen-you-whine classical musique seems much vaster than the gulf between classical music and good jazz.  I mean, pole dancing at a strip club has some essential similarities to classical ballet...but are they really quite the same?

It's great to see you back David.  :)

...but I totally disagree ;)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on December 15, 2009, 03:51:47 PM
Yesterday I finally voted No, since there was not an "intent" option.  However, this evening I forgot what I chose (really) so removed my vote, put in my No in again and found that the numbers lined up.... ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Benji on December 15, 2009, 03:52:36 PM
Here's some food for thought, from the liner notes for the Abbado disc of Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky.

"Prokofiev's work as a film composer belongs to his Soviet period. It was closely tied up with the emergence of the cinema in Russia as a new experimental medium capable of offering as much scope to the creative innoveator as the polictical indoctrinator. For Prokofiev, the value of film music as a form of theatrical expression was comparable with that of opera and ballet. This attitude was not uncommon among his friends and contemporaties. "Cinema music, " Shostakovich held, "is often regarded as a mere illustration supplementary to the screen. In my opinion it should be treated as an integral part of an artistic whole" (Literaturnaya Gazeta, 10 April 1939). Such a viewpoint was enthusiastically endorsed by Prokofiev, who, in an article on the film music for Alexander Nevsky, further observed that the "cinema is a young and very modern art that offers new and facinating possibilities to the composer. These possibilities must be fully utilised. Composers ought to make a study of them, instead of merely writing the music and then leaving it to the mercy of the film people. Even the most skilled sound technician cannot possibly handle the music as well as the composer himself..."."

Ates Orga, 1980.

I don't know if anyone can source translations of the articles quoted?

Of course, Prokofiev wrote that when cinema with sound was new though, as he seemed to hope, plenty of composers have taken it upon themselves to study the art of writing music for the medium, and there are a few who have the clout to deal hands on with the rest of the creative forces to produce a work that really is an "artistic whole"; in a collaboration that is surely the equal of any ballet or opera forged by multiple creative minds.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 15, 2009, 03:55:21 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 15, 2009, 03:15:33 PM
I'm shocked to see "yes" votes.  Though I realize there's an essential similarity of type between movie scores and incidental theatre music, the gulf between Williams's pumped-up accents for on-screen action and Jen-you-whine classical musique seems much vaster than the gulf between classical music and good jazz.  I mean, pole dancing at a strip club has some essential similarities to classical ballet...but are they really quite the same?
As a player, I can say that there is no essential difference in playing them.  They have the same kinds of challenges and rewards I find in playing opera or ballet accompaniments.  (I've never actually played for a movie soundtrack, but I wouldn't be averse.  Of course, at this point in my musical career, I'd take any job that pays! ;D)  And don't dismiss John Williams' music until you've tried to play it!  It's not easy by any standards. :o
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on December 15, 2009, 03:59:40 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on December 15, 2009, 03:55:21 PM
As a player, I can say that there is no essential difference in playing them.  They have the same kinds of challenges and rewards I find in playing opera or ballet accompaniments.  (I've never actually played for a movie soundtrack, but I wouldn't be averse.  Of course, at this point in my musical career, I'd take any job that pays! ;D)  And don't dismiss John Williams' music until you've tried to play it!  It's not easy by any standards. :o

I could easily see you being hired by Danny Elfman, John.  He would be lucky to have you....and aren't you glad the cold snap is over here in CO? ;)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on December 16, 2009, 06:43:14 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 15, 2009, 03:15:33 PM
I'm shocked to see "yes" votes.
You get shocked too easily.

Quote from: DavidRoss on December 15, 2009, 03:15:33 PMThough I realize there's an essential similarity of type between movie scores and incidental theatre music, the gulf between Williams's pumped-up accents for on-screen action. 
John Williams (and other movie composers for that matter) compose diverse music for different kind of scenes in movies. Do you hear pumped-up accents in Yoda's Theme?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2009, 06:44:54 AM
Quote from: Bogey on December 15, 2009, 03:59:40 PM
I could easily see you being hired by Danny Elfman, John.  He would be lucky to have you....

Very much enjoyed Elfman's score to Dick Tracy. But I shouldn't call it classical music.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2009, 06:45:52 AM
Quote from: Benji on December 15, 2009, 03:39:25 PM
It's great to see you back David.  :)

...but I totally disagree ;)

You're a great group of folks!  We get on so well, yet feel no obligation to agree on all points.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2009, 06:47:22 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 16, 2009, 06:43:14 AM
John Williams (and other movie composers for that matter) compose diverse music for different kind of scenes in movies. Do you hear pumped-up accents in Yoda's Theme?

Cheap diversity does not classical music make either.  Elvis sang both "Jailhouse Rock" and "Love Me Tender."  That difference in overall tone doesn't make Elvis a classical musician, either.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 16, 2009, 12:07:51 PM
Quote from: Benji on December 15, 2009, 03:39:25 PM
It's great to see you back David.  :)

...but I totally disagree ;)
About pole dancing and ballet? 

I love you, too, Ben...and love that we can disagree without being disagreeable!  Wouldn't it be lovely if we could all express our opinions without looking at those who disagree like Hitler looked at Poland? 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on December 16, 2009, 12:31:30 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 16, 2009, 06:47:22 AM
Cheap diversity does not classical music make either.  Elvis sang both "Jailhouse Rock" and "Love Me Tender."  That difference in overall tone doesn't make Elvis a classical musician, either.

Cheap diversity? Really? John Williams is one of the most successful, respected and awarded movie composer ever. Whatever you try to say, there is something valuable in his music. DavidRoss tried to "prove" JW's music isn't classical because it is only pumped-up accents. His argument were not valid because the music is diverse.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 16, 2009, 12:38:43 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 16, 2009, 12:31:30 PM
DavidRoss tried to "prove" JW's music isn't classical because it is only pumped-up accents. His argument were not valid because the music is diverse.

DavidRoss made no effort to "prove" anything, nor made any argument.   And he bears scant resemblance to Poland.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2009, 12:39:47 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 16, 2009, 12:31:30 PM
Cheap diversity? Really?

Yes; diversity in music is easy to achieve.  That question is entirely orthogonal to the question of value in music.  I didn't think that was particularly hard to grasp, Poju.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2009, 12:41:56 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 16, 2009, 12:31:30 PM
DavidRoss tried to "prove" JW's music isn't classical because it is only pumped-up accents. His argument were not valid because the music is diverse.

But this is gibberish, Poju.  Firstly, because you completely misrepresent (and quite possibly completely misunderstand) what David had to say.  And secondly, because no question of diversity in Williams's music invalidates any argument which has been advanced in this thread.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Catison on December 16, 2009, 08:27:14 PM
So are we discussing if movie music is classical music or if it is good music?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 17, 2009, 04:03:49 AM
Quote from: Catison on December 16, 2009, 08:27:14 PM
So are we discussing if movie music is classical music or if it is good music?

An excellently perceptive question.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 17, 2009, 04:08:09 AM
I was about to write more, but (while normally I like keyboard shortcuts) this was one of those times where I thought I was typing, but my message got posted.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 17, 2009, 07:04:58 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 17, 2009, 04:08:09 AM
I was about to write more, but (while normally I like keyboard shortcuts) this was one of those times where I thought I was typing, but my message got posted.
So what "more" were you about to write? :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on December 18, 2009, 06:54:00 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 16, 2009, 12:41:56 PM
Firstly, because you completely misrepresent (and quite possibly completely misunderstand) what David had to say.  And secondly, because no question of diversity in Williams's music invalidates any argument which has been advanced in this thread.[/font]

Aha.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: RJR on December 10, 2010, 07:06:02 AM
Herrmann vs. Williams? No contest. Herrmann wins. Easily.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Daverz on December 10, 2010, 10:04:48 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 15, 2009, 03:15:33 PM
I'm shocked to see "yes" votes.  Though I realize there's an essential similarity of type between movie scores and incidental theatre music, the gulf between Williams's pumped-up accents for on-screen action and Jen-you-whine classical musique seems much vaster than the gulf between classical music and good jazz.  I mean, pole dancing at a strip club has some essential similarities to classical ballet...but are they really quite the same?

Plenty of classical "concert" music could be described in just as disdainful terms.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 10, 2010, 10:14:21 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 15, 2009, 03:15:33 PM
I mean, pole dancing at a strip club has some essential similarities to classical ballet...but are they really quite the same?

After some of the modern Ballet I've seen, I'm thinking maybe yes.   :P
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidW on December 10, 2010, 11:41:09 AM
Quote from: Catison on November 10, 2009, 04:04:47 AM
The Star Wars scores are full of amazing music, but they are not classical music; they are movie scores.  Movies are not the operas of our time, they are the movies of our time.  The opera of our time is simply that, opera.  I doubt John Adams feels like he is competing with Jerry Bruckheimer.

The unspoken assumption here is that movie scores, because they are not classical music, are somehow lesser forms of art.  That is not correct either.  They are amazing examples of music written for the cinema, and that is important.  Although they are wonderful to listen to on their own, we cannot divorce them from their intended use, which is to comment on a visual story told in widescreen moving images.  That is precisely why they are not classical music; because they were never primarily intended to stand on their own.  To call them classical music would be to deny the very reason why they are great.

This post is perfect and the discussion need not have continued after it. :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2010, 11:59:11 AM
Quote from: DavidW on December 10, 2010, 11:41:09 AM
This post is perfect and the discussion need not have continued after it. :)

And yet, sadly, it did... :'(  Mainly perpetuated by people who believed that what they like or dislike is sufficient to make the result true or false... like we usually do... ::)

8)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 10, 2010, 12:18:50 PM
John Cage might say, I have nothing to add, and I am adding it.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 10, 2010, 12:33:43 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 10, 2010, 12:18:50 PM
John Cage might say, I have nothing to add, and I am adding it.
The pupils of the Tendai School used to study meditation before Zen entered Japan. Four of them who were intimate friends promised one another to observe seven days of silence. On the first day all were silent Their meditation had begun auspiciously, but when night came and the oil-lamps were growing dim one of the pupils could not help exclaiming to a servant: 'Fix those lamps.' The second pupil was surprised to hear the first one talk. 'We are not supposed to say a word,' he remarked. 'You two are stupid. Why did you talk?' asked the third. 'I am the only one who has not talked,' muttered the fourth pupil.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on December 11, 2010, 02:48:04 AM
It's all about how restricted definition we give to term classical music.

If the definition is very restricted then it is clear the music for Star Wars movies is not classical music but if we expand the definition a little pit, some movie  music and classical music starts to overlap. In my opinion it is logical to have some overlapping. Hip Hop is used in some movies these days. So, Hip Hop is movie music AND Hip Hop. If Star Wars music is only movie music then we have an absurd situation: By classification Star Wars music seems to be closer to Hip Hop used in movies than classical music (say, Holst's Planets).

Because music used in movies can be practically anything from baroque to reggae, it is logical to have subgroups within movie music (classical movie music, techno movie music, rock movie music, jazz movie music etc.) The result of this is that the definitions of all music styles are expanded toward movie music resulting overlapping.

Lots of people who think classical music sucks do like the music of Star Wars movies (I myself used to be one of these people). If Star Wars music is given the label of classical music, it will encourage people to explore and find the treasures of "real" classical music.

One confusing aspect of the music for Star Wars (and other similar orchestral music by John Williams) is that it sounds orchestral (symphonic) but is functionally operatic; it's purpose it to strengthen story telling, movie experience.
   
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 11, 2010, 04:44:53 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 11, 2010, 02:48:04 AM
One confusing aspect of the music for Star Wars (and other similar orchestral music by John Williams) is that it sounds orchestral (symphonic) but is functionally operatic; it's purpose it to strengthen story telling, movie experience.

No, you are confused ; )  It is not functionally operatic, it is functionally cinematic.  It's fine to discuss how the term classical music might or might not be bound, but you shouldn't play so fast and loose with the meaning of opera.  Being a Jn Williams enthusiast shouldn't muddle you so much that you can no longer distinguish between opera and film.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 11, 2010, 04:45:19 AM
Quote from: jowcol on December 10, 2010, 12:33:43 PM
The pupils of the Tendai School used to study meditation before Zen entered Japan. Four of them who were intimate friends promised one another to observe seven days of silence. On the first day all were silent Their meditation had begun auspiciously, but when night came and the oil-lamps were growing dim one of the pupils could not help exclaiming to a servant: 'Fix those lamps.' The second pupil was surprised to hear the first one talk. 'We are not supposed to say a word,' he remarked. 'You two are stupid. Why did you talk?' asked the third. 'I am the only one who has not talked,' muttered the fourth pupil.

Great story, BTW!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on December 11, 2010, 07:16:00 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 11, 2010, 04:44:53 AM
No, you are confused ; )  It is not functionally operatic, it is functionally cinematic.  It's fine to discuss how the term classical music might or might not be bound, but you shouldn't play so fast and loose with the meaning of opera.  Being a Jn Williams enthusiast shouldn't muddle you so much that you can no longer distinguish between opera and film.
I am not confused nor do I mix opera and film. The difference is insignificant in this context. Operas and films are basically about telling stories in entertaining, artistic and emotional ways. Remember that even films can differ from each other very much.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: greg on December 11, 2010, 08:15:15 AM
It's like opera, but in reality it is cinema.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 11, 2010, 07:12:43 PM
Quote from: jowcol on December 10, 2010, 12:33:43 PM
The pupils of the Tendai School used to study meditation before Zen entered Japan. Four of them who were intimate friends promised one another to observe seven days of silence. On the first day all were silent Their meditation had begun auspiciously, but when night came and the oil-lamps were growing dim one of the pupils could not help exclaiming to a servant: 'Fix those lamps.' The second pupil was surprised to hear the first one talk. 'We are not supposed to say a word,' he remarked. 'You two are stupid. Why did you talk?' asked the third. 'I am the only one who has not talked,' muttered the fourth pupil.

Similar thing happened in an episode of "The Odd Couple."
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 12, 2010, 03:49:42 AM
That's got Tony Randall written all over it, sure.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 12, 2010, 03:50:18 AM
Come to think of it, Tony Randall would have made a great C3PO.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 12, 2010, 04:43:59 AM
Just noticed this thread. Weird I hadn't noticed it before. Anyway, I'll shock DavidRoss again by adding another yes vote. As others have noted, a film score is essentially no different in purpose than incidental music to a play. If Beethoven's Egmont and Grieg's Peer Gynt are classical, then so is Stars Wars. As further proof: soundtracks are reviewed in classical journals; suites from film scores (including Star Wars) are played by classical orchestras in concert. Seems self-evident that the music is modern classical. I'm surprised there is such fanatical opposition to that simple concept.

Sarge
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 12, 2010, 04:57:41 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 12, 2010, 04:43:59 AMIf Beethoven's Egmont and Grieg's Peer Gynt are classical, then so is Stars Wars.

One element is missing here, otherwise the the soundtrack to "Spinal Tap" is classical music.  The question is whether the music in Star Wars is by its nature classical.  It is performed by an orchestra, which is a point in its favour, but not all music performed by an orchestra is classical.  (Just saying.)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on December 12, 2010, 05:01:38 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 12, 2010, 04:43:59 AMIf Beethoven's Egmont and Grieg's Peer Gynt are classical, then so is Stars Wars.

Sarge
Well put Sarge.  ;)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 12, 2010, 05:08:08 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 12, 2010, 04:43:59 AM
Just noticed this thread. Weird I hadn't noticed it before. Anyway, I'll shock DavidRoss again by adding another yes vote. As others have noted, a film score is essentially no different in purpose than incidental music to a play. If Beethoven's Egmont and Grieg's Peer Gynt are classical, then so is Stars Wars. As further proof: soundtracks are reviewed in classical journals; suites from film scores (including Star Wars) are played by classical orchestras in concert. Seems self-evident that the music is modern classical. I'm surprised there is such fanatical opposition to that simple concept.

Sarge

I'm with Sarge: the family similarities outweigh the differences. And for another proof to add to his list: John Williams also composes orchestral music expressly for the concert hall. Just like Shostakovich, Copland, Prokofiev, Bax, Eisler, Korngold, Toch, Frankel, Schnittke, Rota, Alwyn, Arnold, Walton, Vaughan Williams, and many others, he writes "classical" music for varied purposes, venues, and media.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 12, 2010, 05:14:37 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on December 12, 2010, 05:08:08 AM
I'm with Sarge: the family similarities outweigh the differences. And for another proof to add to his list: John Williams also composes orchestral music expressly for the concert hall. Just like Shostakovich, Copland, Prokofiev, Bax, Eisler, Korngold, Toch, Frankel, Schnittke, Rota, Alwyn, Arnold, Walton, Vaughan Williams, and many others, he writes "classical" music for varied purposes, venues, and media.

Frankel wrote symphonies, and he wrote Jazz tunes.  The Jazz tunes are not classical just because Frankel also wrote symphonies.   I'd agree movie scores can be classical music if, independent of their function in the movie, they are classical music.  I find the claim that "movie scores are not classical music because a movie is not opera" to be utter unconvincing, but "movie scores are classical music because Vaughan Williams wrote movie scores" to be equally invalid.  You have to listen to Star Wars and come to a judgement as to whether it is classical music.  I'd lean towards yes, but a very superficial strain of classical music.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 12, 2010, 05:19:57 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 12, 2010, 04:57:41 AM
One element is missing here, otherwise the the soundtrack to "Spinal Tap" is classical music.  The question is whether the music in Star Wars is by its nature classical.  It is performed by an orchestra, which is a point in its favour, but not all music performed by an orchestra is classical.  (Just saying.)

True, but scoring and motivic development in the Star Wars films draws directly from the grand Romantic tradition of Classical music.

Btw: here's an interesting article discussing links between Star Wars and the Ring, including detailed musical motif comparisons: http://www.trell.org/wagner/starwars.html

Quote from: Scarpia on December 12, 2010, 05:14:37 AM
Frankel wrote symphonies, and he wrote Jazz tunes.  The Jazz tunes are not classical just because Frankel also wrote symphonies.   I'd agree movie scores can be classical music if, independent of their function in the movie, they are classical music.  I find the claim that "movie scores are not classical music because a movie is not opera" to be utter unconvincing, but "movie scores are classical music because Vaughan Williams wrote movie scores" to be equally invalid.  You have to listen to Star Wars and come to a judgement as to whether it is classical music.  I'd lean towards yes, but a very superficial strain of classical music.

I take your point, but my "proof" was intended to emphasize the great overlap between the two disciplines and their practitioners, not to simply say "X automatically equals Y". We're dealing with a case of familial resemblances, not anything that can be (readily) reduced to a simple formula.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 12, 2010, 05:21:28 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 12, 2010, 04:57:41 AM
....but not all music performed by an orchestra is classical.  (Just saying.)

Of course not. One Hundred and One Strings anyone? Someday the London Symphony Orchestra may record orchestral arrangements of Britney Spears greatest hits (stranger things have happened  :D ). The resulting album would not be a classical recording obviously. But when the LSO records incidental music from the drama Egmont (Szell) one day and on another day records "incidental" music from the drama Star Wars, I see no logical reason why the latter is not a classical album too.

Sarge 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 12, 2010, 05:22:06 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on December 12, 2010, 05:19:57 AM
True, but scoring and motivic development in the Star Wars films draws directly from the grand Romantic tradition of Classical music.

That's an argument I find convincing.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 13, 2010, 06:24:50 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 11, 2010, 07:16:00 AM
I am not confused nor do I mix opera and film. The difference is insignificant in this context. Operas and films are basically about telling stories in entertaining, artistic and emotional ways. Remember that even films can differ from each other very much.

Yeah, but in opera they sing.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 14, 2010, 02:14:54 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on December 12, 2010, 05:08:08 AM
And for another proof to add to his list: John Williams also composes orchestral music expressly for the concert hall. Just like Shostakovich, Copland, Prokofiev, Bax, Eisler, Korngold, Toch, Frankel, Schnittke, Rota, Alwyn, Arnold, Walton, Vaughan Williams, and many others, he writes "classical" music for varied purposes, venues, and media.

All right, so he does.  Someone remind me, please, just what Williams has written for the concert hall which justifies the comparison with Shostakovich, Copland, Prokofiev, Bax, Eisler, Korngold, Toch, Frankel, Schnittke, Rota, Alwyn, Arnold, Walton or Vaughan Williams?

Just three pieces, I think, would be reasonable.

There's a reason why Williams writes poor concert music; and one of those reasons is, that since what he has a reasonable talent for is furnishing "sound objects" for use (as an editor and director arrange) as one element in a film, his skills in composition per se are . . . let us use a perfectly neutral term . . . lacking.

So there we have it:  roughly half of those polled do not require that classical music be created by someone with expertise in the discipline of composition.  All you want is an orchestra, and ten minutes of material which suits something going on on-screen.  Just like opera . . . .
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 14, 2010, 02:44:31 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 14, 2010, 02:14:54 AM
All right, so he does.  Someone remind me, please, just what Williams has written for the concert hall which justifies the comparison with Shostakovich, Copland, Prokofiev, Bax, Eisler, Korngold, Toch, Frankel, Schnittke, Rota, Alwyn, Arnold, Walton or Vaughan Williams?

Just three pieces, I think, would be reasonable.

There's a reason why Williams writes poor concert music; and one of those reasons is, that since what he has a reasonable talent for is furnishing "sound objects" for use (as an editor and director arrange) as one element in a film, his skills in composition per se are . . . let us use a perfectly neutral term . . . lacking.

So there we have it:  roughly half of those polled do not require that classical music be created by someone with expertise in the discipline of composition.  All you want is an orchestra, and ten minutes of material which suits something going on on-screen.  Just like opera . . . .

This thread is a mystery to me. The man has attained great professional success and is generally considered one of the top composers in his field. He has written enormous amounts of music that have become known the world over (more famous than many pop and rock artists, which is easy achievement). Most people can hum at least one tune he wrote (if not more). His music is part of the national consciousness (very few people in this category). He's won a boatload of awards over decades of work. And yet, some people feel the need to bring him down and place others above him. Why is there this need to tear him him down? Why? I'd bet that if we could gather all of those listed above together with Williams, they would accept him as one of their own.

The other reason I am mystified, is that this whole thread is based on linguistics - is film music a subset of classical? Personally, I would argue that film music like this is the natural extension of classical music. But in the end it just doesn't matter. His music stands on its own. It's great music. Ranting at it doesn't make it otherwise.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: canninator on December 14, 2010, 03:13:45 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 14, 2010, 02:14:54 AM
All right, so he does.  Someone remind me, please, just what Williams has written for the concert hall which justifies the comparison with Shostakovich, Copland, Prokofiev, Bax, Eisler, Korngold, Toch, Frankel, Schnittke, Rota, Alwyn, Arnold, Walton or Vaughan Williams?

Just three pieces, I think, would be reasonable.

There's a reason why Williams writes poor concert music; and one of those reasons is, that since what he has a reasonable talent for is furnishing "sound objects" for use (as an editor and director arrange) as one element in a film, his skills in composition per se are . . . let us use a perfectly neutral term . . . lacking.

So there we have it:  roughly half of those polled do not require that classical music be created by someone with expertise in the discipline of composition.  All you want is an orchestra, and ten minutes of material which suits something going on on-screen.  Just like opera . . . .


I think the original post is quite correctly observing that John Williams has written for multiple media in a manner similar to the listed composers and is not explicitly making a statement on the quality of these composers. I don't see this as particularly controversial. A quick Wikipedia search demonstrates that he has composed a broad range of concerti and concert pieces and I'm guessing, but would be happy to be proven wrong, that there is no substantive basis to your explicit statement (although worded in a rather roundabout way) that John Williams has no expertise in the discipline of composition. Maybe your ears need adjusting (to coin a phrase I have seen quoted before)  :P  ;)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 14, 2010, 03:23:48 AM
Neal, you do not understand my part of this, long-term conversation regarding my own vocation, an artistic practice in which I have significant experience, if you really believe (as you caricature) that I am tearing Williams down.

Now, you say his music stands on its own. Yet you don't answer my simple request for three concert works which do "stand on their own."

How can you assert that any of his movie music "stands on its own"?  There's certainly a great deal of wiggle room in the discussion of music; but there, I think you have made one of the comparatively few impossible statements.

You also avoid the thread's hard (and genuinely interesting) questions with mere bromides. Is John Williams' work "classical music" because he has a successful Hollywood career (which, for the record, I do not envy)? Is it "classical music" because you leave the cinema humming the tunes? Is it "classical music" because of all the awards he's won (and we all know how reliable Hollywood's awards are, as an indicator of cultural worth!)?

But no, you don't permit the discussion, because you mis-characterize it as "tearing Williams down." I wish you might have addressed some of my points, instead of playing at Head Master.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 14, 2010, 03:48:53 AM
Quote from: Il Furioso on December 14, 2010, 03:13:45 AM
I think the original post is quite correctly observing that John Williams has written for multiple media in a manner similar to the listed composers and is not explicitly making a statement on the quality of these composers.

Fine. I am making a point which was not made by the cited post;  nothing particularly unusual there, I trust.

Quote from: Il FuriosoI don't see this as particularly controversial.

Nor have you addressed my question.  And, as we amply see on the forum, not addressing a questioner's actual points is nothing new, either.

Quote from: Il FuriosoA quick Wikipedia search demonstrates that he has composed a broad range of concerti and concert pieces and I'm guessing, but would be happy to be proven wrong, that there is no substantive basis to your explicit statement (although worded in a rather roundabout way) that John Williams has no expertise in the discipline of composition. Maybe your ears need adjusting (to coin a phrase I have seen quoted before)  :P  ;)

I love it! I ask a question, as a composer myself, about the discipline of composition, and inviting nuance into the matter, and indeed inviting thoughtful and considered response, and I get A quick Wikipedia search! Wonderful!

I haven't read the Wikipedia article. One reads wonderful things there, to be sure!  I shall tell you what I know.  I have heard, performed live at Symphony Hall, two "concert" works by John Williams, which were negligible in content (not merely light, you understand, but negligible) and whose scoring was amateurishly ham-fisted (for but one obvious example, places where the accompaniment was too thickly scored for a harp soloist).  Ham-fisted, but obviously the work of someone who had generated the Procession and Ritual Clambake of the Ewoks.

I certainly agree that the role played by the quality of the work has not yet been satisfactorily discussed in this matter.  But there is a difference between a contemporary of Mozart's, whose writing is relatively uninspired, and a contemporary of ours.  That difference, too, is one I think there would be value in exploring.

One of the interesting things about this thread, is that those who invite us to view John Williams as, not merely a composer of classical music, but as the equivalent in our day of Giacomo Puccini, is that the arguments are on the order of a cookie-cutter.  Now, there are contexts and threads in which I happily embrace the question of Is it just all music?

In this thead, though, where the very title asks a probing question, we have one of the many contexts in which much of the value is to be found in discussing the distinctions between apparently similar objects.

My question therefore stands.  Setting aside the lists on Wikipedia, who has heard three concert works by John Williams which justify his inclusion in a list with (and I quote) Shostakovich, Copland, Prokofiev, Bax, Eisler, Korngold, Toch, Frankel, Schnittke, Rota, Alwyn, Arnold, Walton or Vaughan Williams?

For, as it is, it reads no great deal unlike Thomas Kinkade is an artist, just like Manet, Renoir, Matisse, Picasso, Miró, Klimt, Klee, Mondrian, Picasso, O'Keefe, Rothko & Hopper.


If it will help the great fans of John Williams to focus on the question outside of their sentimental fondness for the many movies he has scored: Strike the phrase Star Wars from the title of this thread.

Does a movie soundtrack count as classical music?  Why or why not?  Does the question yield an answer which applies to all movie soundtracks without distinction?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 14, 2010, 04:05:58 AM
Another point. Consider the list given us: Shostakovich, Copland, Prokofiev, Bax, Eisler, Korngold, Toch, Frankel, Schnittke, Rota, Alwyn, Arnold, Walton and Vaughan Williams.

Now, I am going to reduce the list slightly, to reflect composers with whose oeuvre I am to some degree reasonably familiar: Shostakovich, Copland, Prokofiev, Korngold, Toch (really an excellent, underexposed composer, BTW), Schnittke, Walton and Vaughan Williams.

Something which is true of the practice of composition in the case of all these eight composers is, they have written works which can be (and are) programmed as the significant works in a concert: symphonies, oratorios, (proper) concertos.  (And to repeat an idea I have brought forward before, this is no mere accident of scale, but a question of the composer's competence in managing composition.)

I have heard, live or via radio broadcast, several "concert" works by John Williams.  But they were always the opener, a musical hors d'oeuvre, and not the main musical dish. Why?  Is that merely some prejudice on the part of (e.g.) James Levine?


If we are calling John Williams's work "classical music," what short-cuts are we, in our affection for those bemused hours in the cinema, freely allowing him?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 14, 2010, 04:11:06 AM
I think it of interest, too, that Neal considers The Respectful Opposition here to be "tearing Williams down." It doesn't seem to occur to Neal that placing Williams in the ranks of Shostakovich, Copland, Prokofiev, Bax, Eisler, Korngold, Toch, Frankel, Schnittke, Rota, Alwyn, Arnold, Walton and Vaughan Williams may be overstating his talents.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 14, 2010, 04:14:47 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 14, 2010, 03:23:48 AM
Neal, you do not understand my part of this, long-term conversation regarding my own vocation, an artistic practice in which I have significant experience, if you really believe (as you caricature) that I am tearing Williams down.

Now, you say his music stands on its own. Yet you don't answer my simple request for three concert works which do "stand on their own."

How can you assert that any of his movie music "stands on its own"?  There's certainly a great deal of wiggle room in the discussion of music; but there, I think you have made one of the comparatively few impossible statements.

You also avoid the thread's hard (and genuinely interesting) questions with mere bromides. Is John Williams' work "classical music" because he has a successful Hollywood career (which, for the record, I do not envy)? Is it "classical music" because you leave the cinema humming the tunes? Is it "classical music" because of all the awards he's won (and we all know how reliable Hollywood's awards are, as an indicator of cultural worth!)?

But no, you don't permit the discussion, because you mis-characterize it as "tearing Williams down." I wish you might have addressed some of my points, instead of playing at Head Master.

You call me a headmaster (never been one of those - sounds cool) and then proceed to take the role onto yourself. This is not your thread to dictate what I should do or have to do. But that isn't worth us agruing over.

Unlike you, I don't think the classification particularly interesting or useful. It doesn't help us to understand anything new. Perhaps I am too practical on this matter. In any case,  I won't be wasting others time if they feel it doesn't add to the conversation. The reason I feel this way is that some here are using it as a way to elevate some composers and bring down others.  And it is a trap. We should celebrate a composer for what they are, not whether they fit some category or other.

Three concert works - I'm sure you can find what you like on wiki or other sites. Several works come to mind, including NBC's theme music and several hyms/marches for the olympic games. But I don't see what this or the other various concertos he wrote adds to the conversation. One doesn't need to justify his music on someone else's terms to make that music worthwhile. He didn't write like Bax, Korngold, Vaughn Williams, etc. But neither did they write like him.

You then implied that Williams has no expertise in composition - an absurd statement as far as I can see and not one that can be justified based on what he has written. I hope you were just exaggerating or something. One simply doesn't become successful without it. Otherwise, you would just have just bits and pieces of things - nothing would hang together.

Williams music doesn't stand on its own? I have several discs of his music. I enjoy listening to it (I gather you would not).  I assure you, it stands just fine on its own merits. Sometimes I even forget what movie it was associated with.   And if you want an example, just take the opening section to Saving Private Ryan. It's fabulous music even if you disassociate it from the film.



Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 14, 2010, 04:18:21 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 14, 2010, 04:11:06 AM
I think it of interest, too, that Neal considers The Respectful Opposition here to be "tearing Williams down." It doesn't seem to occur to Neal that placing Williams in the ranks of Shostakovich, Copland, Prokofiev, Bax, Eisler, Korngold, Toch, Frankel, Schnittke, Rota, Alwyn, Arnold, Walton and Vaughan Williams may be overstating his talents.
You write too fast. I can;t keep up AND do my job! Yikes!

Man, you're gonna hate me, but I don't think so. In fact, If you forced me to rank them, I would put him on par with Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Copland, and Vaughn Williams. You seem to find that insulting for some reason that I have yet to fathom. (Maybe insulting is the wrong word - couldn't come up with a better one)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 14, 2010, 04:35:37 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 14, 2010, 04:11:06 AM
I think it of interest, too, that Neal considers The Respectful Opposition here to be "tearing Williams down." It doesn't seem to occur to Neal that placing Williams in the ranks of Shostakovich, Copland, Prokofiev, Bax, Eisler, Korngold, Toch, Frankel, Schnittke, Rota, Alwyn, Arnold, Walton and Vaughan Williams may be overstating his talents.

I should note that I didn't include him in that list to comment on his worth or ability.

Secondly, you keep bringing up (and tearing down) Williams's compositional skills. The relative, subjective quality of his work for film or directly for the concert hall is irrelevant here.

It's a question of classification, and you seem to proceed under the assumption that "classical music" necessarily equals "good music," Williams is supposedly bad, ergo his music isn't classical or couldn't reasonably be construed as such.

When I hear his scores, I hear orchestral incidental music that, in its use of melody, harmony, rhythm, and orchestration, bears close resemblance to other orchestral incidental music, largely in the Western Romantic classical tradition. It's just that, unlike, Shostakovich or Prokofiev et al., he's not an officially canonized "classical" composer who appears in textbooks and concert halls with the same regularity.

If anything, the Star Wars soundtrack seems to have much more in common with what we normally consider classical music than not, and there's certainly no harm in people enjoying it or using it as an entryway to what you consider classical music proper.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 14, 2010, 05:10:45 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on December 14, 2010, 04:35:37 AM
I should note that I didn't include him in that list to comment on his worth or ability.

Noted.  As is probably apparent from my part in the conversation, I do think the nature of his ability is an interesting subject, and that it does figure in the topic of this thread.

Quote from: GraziosoSecondly, you keep bringing up (and tearing down) Williams's compositional skills. The relative, subjective quality of his work for film or directly for the concert hall is irrelevant here.

Again, I call it "discussing the nature and quality of his work."  I wonder why more than one participant in the discussion seeks to marginalize my part in the conversation by smearing it as "tearing Williams down."  It is a most peculiar conversation, in which the quality of Williams's work is supposedly irrelevant, but the fact that a composer considers that question is supposedly inadmissably critical.

Quote from: GraziosoIt's a question of classification, and you seem to proceed under the assumption that "classical music" necessarily equals "good music," Williams is supposedly bad, ergo his music isn't classical or couldn't reasonably be construed as such.

Ah, but you see, since you are playing into the game of "What Karl is saying, and all that Karl is doing, is 'tearing Williams down'," you mistake this aspect of my argument.

There is a lot of bad music which is classical music.  Mediocre composers of the Baroque and Classical eras (whom we shan't name, because then there will be a hue and cry about how really they're great composers, too).  Really, the assertion that I am supposedly equating "classical music" with "good music" is practically refuted before the statement opens out onto the air.

OTOH, there is frequently in these threads a tendency for the "good music is music which I like" wheeze to creep in.

Furthermore, I remind you that I happily remove the question from any matter of John Williams at all.

So:  if we consider Adams's El niño and Boulez's Sur incises "classical music," is a movie soundtrack also "classical music"?


You're perfectly right that part of the slipperiness of this discussion is, the matter of defining "classical music."

Quote from: GraziosoWhen I hear his scores, I hear orchestral incidental music that, in its use of melody, harmony, rhythm, and orchestration, bears close resemblance to other orchestral incidental music, largely in the Western Romantic classical tradition. It's just that, unlike, Shostakovich or Prokofiev et al., he's not an officially canonized "classical" composer who appears in textbooks and concert halls with the same regularity.

I love the "It's just that..."! What in your opinion are the reasons that Williams has not been "canonized"?

Your remark here touches on a suggestion I was planning to offer earlier.  Listen to one of the suites from Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet; listen to side A of the soundtrack to Star Wars (and disregard the fact that, e.g., Williams cribbed so heavily from Mars in Holst's The Planets). Repeat, so that you listen to each three or four times.  There is a difference in quality in the use of the orchestra, which is not on the plane of musical personality.

When I hear his scores, I hear a use of the orchestra which a bit too frequently reminds me of short-score marching band.  (Is John Philip Sousa "classical music"? Must be: there is a Sousa series on Naxos.)

Quote from: GraziosoIf anything, the Star Wars soundtrack seems to have much more in common with what we normally consider classical music than not, and there's certainly no harm in people enjoying it or using it as an entryway to what you consider classical music proper.

No one is suggesting that there is any harm in people enjoying John Williams movie soundtracks. What an idea!

Does a movie soundtrack count as classical music?...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: MN Dave on December 14, 2010, 05:29:02 AM
I believe they call it Soundtrack.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: MN Dave on December 14, 2010, 05:33:24 AM
Popular Orchestral might be accurate.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 14, 2010, 05:35:57 AM
Here's something interesting from Wikipedia!

QuoteNotably, Williams has won the Grammy Award for Best Instrumental Composition for his scores for Star Wars, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Superman, The Empire Strikes Back, E.T. The Extraterrestrial, Angela'a Ashes (1999), Munich (2005), and Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. The competition includes not only composers of film scores, but also composers of instrumental music of any genre, including composers of legitimate classical fare such as symphonies and chamber music.

There you have it:  Williams has received multiple awards for best instrumental composition, and in each of those years, his composition was superior to anything composed for symphony orchestra or chamber ensemble.

I consider my question quite amply answered.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: MN Dave on December 14, 2010, 05:37:20 AM
It's music that sounds like classical music.  ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 14, 2010, 05:41:54 AM
Quote from: Sackbut on December 14, 2010, 05:37:20 AM
It's music that sounds like classical music.  ;D

Nicely played! (I'm not a doctor, but I do play one on television . . . .)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: MN Dave on December 14, 2010, 05:56:29 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 14, 2010, 05:41:54 AM
Nicely played! (I'm not a doctor, but I do play one on television . . . .)

Exactly. It looks like a duck and sounds like a duck but some of its feathers are falling out revealing the mockingbird beneath.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: canninator on December 14, 2010, 07:34:02 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 14, 2010, 03:48:53 AM
Fine. I am making a point which was not made by the cited post;  nothing particularly unusual there, I trust.

Nor have you addressed my question.  And, as we amply see on the forum, not addressing a questioner's actual points is nothing new, either.

I love it! I ask a question, as a composer myself, about the discipline of composition, and inviting nuance into the matter, and indeed inviting thoughtful and considered response, and I get A quick Wikipedia search! Wonderful!

I haven't read the Wikipedia article. One reads wonderful things there, to be sure!  I shall tell you what I know.  I have heard, performed live at Symphony Hall, two "concert" works by John Williams, which were negligible in content (not merely light, you understand, but negligible) and whose scoring was amateurishly ham-fisted (for but one obvious example, places where the accompaniment was too thickly scored for a harp soloist).  Ham-fisted, but obviously the work of someone who had generated the Procession and Ritual Clambake of the Ewoks.

I certainly agree that the role played by the quality of the work has not yet been satisfactorily discussed in this matter.  But there is a difference between a contemporary of Mozart's, whose writing is relatively uninspired, and a contemporary of ours.  That difference, too, is one I think there would be value in exploring.

One of the interesting things about this thread, is that those who invite us to view John Williams as, not merely a composer of classical music, but as the equivalent in our day of Giacomo Puccini, is that the arguments are on the order of a cookie-cutter.  Now, there are contexts and threads in which I happily embrace the question of Is it just all music?

In this thead, though, where the very title asks a probing question, we have one of the many contexts in which much of the value is to be found in discussing the distinctions between apparently similar objects.

My question therefore stands.  Setting aside the lists on Wikipedia, who has heard three concert works by John Williams which justify his inclusion in a list with (and I quote) Shostakovich, Copland, Prokofiev, Bax, Eisler, Korngold, Toch, Frankel, Schnittke, Rota, Alwyn, Arnold, Walton or Vaughan Williams?

For, as it is, it reads no great deal unlike Thomas Kinkade is an artist, just like Manet, Renoir, Matisse, Picasso, Miró, Klimt, Klee, Mondrian, Picasso, O'Keefe, Rothko & Hopper.


If it will help the great fans of John Williams to focus on the question outside of their sentimental fondness for the many movies he has scored: Strike the phrase Star Wars from the title of this thread.

Does a movie soundtrack count as classical music?  Why or why not?  Does the question yield an answer which applies to all movie soundtracks without distinction?

Dude calm down. I have zero interest in answering these questions and don't give a tiny gnats chuff if I have somehow failed an arbitrary intellectual standard for this forum. This board doesn't incite me to those dizzy heights.

I was making two points.

1. From my brief reading, between doing other things, you appeared to have made a mistake in assuming that the original poster was talking about "quality" of composer rather than the media for which they had composed. If that was an error on my part, I apologize, but it's not that big a deal. I wasn't rude about it.

2. You made a blanket statement about a lack of compositional skill which I think it was quite reasonable to call you out on. I even did it with cute emoticons to let you know I'm just mucking about so I'm not sure why you bunched your panties up like that. Having said that, you gave two very reasonable examples to support your statement, I'm happy, I've never heard any of his concerti so I'll take your word for it (even though your blanket statement is still not formally correct).

3. I've always had respect for you and in my limited dealings with you I have always been polite although, as here, direct so please lose the passive-aggressive in future. It's unbecoming.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Daverz on December 14, 2010, 02:42:46 PM
I think rejecting the music as "classical" on the narrow grounds that it is from a soundtrack ignores that the Star Wars music has been made into a concert suite, as has the "Close Encounters" music, and I'm sure other Williams scores.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 14, 2010, 03:04:51 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 14, 2010, 02:42:46 PM
I think rejecting the music as "classical" on the narrow grounds that it is from a soundtrack ignores that the Star Wars music has been made into a concert suite, as has the "Close Encounters" music, and I'm sure other Williams scores.

Well, say a concert suite has been made of a string of Beatles songs (and it may well have been done).  Does that make the Beatles "classical music"?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 14, 2010, 03:16:59 PM
I see that this has turned into the typical web forum argument, where people are arguing about whether something is classical music or not, apparently oblivious to the fact that no clear definition of classical music has been agreed upon.

The fact that music is a movie score only indicates someone played it during a movie.  The fact that it is a movie score has nothing whatsoever to do with whether it is classical music or not.  Bona fide classical music gets incorporated into movie scores all the time.  The reason you are still  bickering is because you can't agree what is classical music and what is not, whether it is part of a movie score or not.

Now, the fact that the Atlanta symphony performed the Star Wars Suite for Orchestra on the same program as Holst's Planets would seem to indicate that some, not totally irrelevant, people consider it classical music.  You may consider it unsophisticated on bombastic, but I'd say it is very subtle compared to 90% of Khatchaturian's output, for instance.

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 14, 2010, 03:18:36 PM
Quote from: Il Furioso on December 14, 2010, 07:34:02 AM
Dude calm down.

I didn't think any of us was less than calm.

Quote from: Il FuriosoI have zero interest in answering these questions . . . .

All right.  I can hardly demand answers, to questions I am turning around myself.

Quote from: Il FuriosoI was making two points.

1. From my brief reading, between doing other things, you appeared to have made a mistake in assuming that the original poster was talking about "quality" of composer rather than the media for which they had composed. If that was an error on my part, I apologize, but it's not that big a deal. I wasn't rude about it.

What have I missed? Who said you were rude?

Near the beginning of the thread, Ernie offers the opinion that, if it can be given as a concert suite, we can call it classical.  Just here, I think we subvert that with the proposal to prepare a concert suite of Beatles favorites.

Is the idea that if there is an orchestra involved (the medium), then the label "classical music" applies?  Do I misunderstand you?

I should disagree, though that disagreement does not mean that I question your intelligence at all.


Quote from: Il Furioso2. You made a blanket statement about a lack of compositional skill which I think it was quite reasonable to call you out on.

Remind me what I was "called out on"? I missed that somehow.

I have never claimed that Williams has no skill.  I have questioned the degree to which his tool box aligns with (say) Shostakovich's, Copland's or Vaughan Williams's tool box.  Maybe I'm the only one here who cares about that question; this too, I can live with.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 14, 2010, 03:21:47 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 14, 2010, 03:16:59 PM
I see that this has turned into the typical web forum argument, where people are arguing about whether something is classical music or not, apparently oblivious to the fact that no clear definition of classical music has been agreed upon.

Actually, I've pointed this out:

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 14, 2010, 05:10:45 AM
. . .

You're perfectly right that part of the slipperiness of this discussion is, the matter of defining "classical music."

But then, we should probably agree that it is also typical of web arguments that these points get lost in the noise.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 14, 2010, 03:24:48 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 14, 2010, 03:18:36 PMI have never claimed that Williams has no skill.  I have questioned the degree to which his tool box aligns with (say) Shostakovich's, Copland's or Vaughan Williams's tool box.  Maybe I'm the only one here who cares about that question; this too, I can live with.[/font]

Non of those were ever asked to score a Star Wars movie.  He's using the toolbox Elgar made use of in his Pomp and Circumstances Marches. 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 14, 2010, 03:26:31 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 14, 2010, 03:24:48 PM
Non of those were ever asked to score a Star Wars movie.

That's true. Shostakovich was asked to score Kozintsev movies.

My point remains.  Shostakovich and John Williams went to comparable tasks, but their tool boxes differ.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 14, 2010, 03:28:00 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 14, 2010, 03:26:31 PM
That's true. Shostakovich was asked to score Kozintsev movies.

My point remains.  Shostakovich and John Williams went to comparable tasks, but their tool boxes differ.


If it doesn't sound like Shostakovich, it's not classical music?   
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 14, 2010, 03:31:33 PM
Zowie. Check this out:

Quote from: Bogey on November 06, 2009, 02:13:04 AM
A couple years back I asked the same question.  Ran for 9 pages:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1096.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1096.0.html)

And from Bill's first post in that ancient (May 2007) thread:

Quote from: Bogey on May 25, 2007, 02:32:38 PM
These movie soundtrack threads usually are short-lived here, but what the heck . . . .
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 14, 2010, 03:33:51 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 14, 2010, 03:28:00 PM
If it doesn't sound like Shostakovich, it's not classical music?   

That ain't what I said, either.

Doesn't matter. John Williams is recognized for unsurpassed superiority of his compositions. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15153.msg472698.html#msg472698)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 14, 2010, 05:01:16 PM
Karl, you raise some very interesting points.  The most important of these is:
Quote from: Karl HenningYou're perfectly right that part of the slipperiness of this discussion is, the matter of defining "classical music."
I have become less and less convinced that there is any essential difference between "classical" and other music.  Yes, we can cite the length, multi-movement nature, and complexity of many musical masterpieces, but other musics can be as long and as complex; some of Miles Davis' recorded improvisations are nearly half an hour long and gratifyingly multifaceted.  Even if we eliminated Miles and others categorized as jazz musicians, what do we do with composers like George Gershwin or Leonard Bernstein, who wrote successfully in many musical media (including, in Bernstein's case, a film score)?  And, going back a little further, what about those composers who specialized in opera, such as Donizetti or Wagner, or "salon" music, like Chopin?

That is why I see no essential difference between composers who work primarily in film scores and those who work in "traditionally classical" media such as operas and concert music.  The quality of their work is essentially irrelevant.  (I'm not surprised to hear that John Williams' concert music is a little "ham-fisted," since he has specialized so much in music meant to be recorded rather than played in the concert hall.  But even "classical" composers can be ham-fisted on occasion.)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Mirror Image on December 14, 2010, 05:11:56 PM
My opinion of John Williams is that of a film composer and not one of more serious music. He does his job effectively as a film composer, but that is all he does. In the concert hall, he simply cannot stand against Debussy or Shostakovich for example, because he doesn't have a musical vocabulary to set him apart as a composer with something truly original to say.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 14, 2010, 08:04:47 PM
Quote from: James on December 14, 2010, 07:28:23 PM
Right .. and his film composing like the composing of most film composers is just by and large mere pastiche & decorative sonic wallpaper supporting what's on the screen ... sure it takes some skill and some are better at it than others ..  but it's nothing really deep or serious musically. In otherwords, it's not Art Music, and it's genesis, aims and goals are entirely different.

I would have to agree, even though the wallpaper is sometimes done very skillfully. (The moment when ET sails into the air to escape his friends' pursuers, and the final farewell scene in that film as well, are very well done and just what's needed to support the film at those points.) I've heard only one JW concert piece, something for bassoon and orchestra called The Five Sacred Trees or something like that, and I thought the opening pastoral movement was all right (the best of the three), the middle scherzo sounded totally clichéd, and the last slow movement was nothing special.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Lethevich on December 14, 2010, 09:18:40 PM
Re. his concert music: same. Even Williams seems to consider concert music and film music as distinct entities given how he adopts an entirely different idiom for a lot of his concert work: rather self-consciously "serious" and drab - I prefer the film music to it. But then, I'd prefer pop music to it as well.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 15, 2010, 04:52:11 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 14, 2010, 05:10:45 AM
You're perfectly right that part of the slipperiness of this discussion is, the matter of defining "classical music."

Which leads to the next question: what is the purpose here behind defining classical music? In this thread it seems to be an attempt by some to grant (or convince others of) legitimacy to Williams's music or soundtrack music in general, and by others to keep his work at bay, held safely outside the hallowed confines of "serious" music or "art" music. (Woefully loaded terms.)

In other words, I don't see much attempt at using definitions of classical music to investigate and learn, but rather to politicize and argue. It would probably be more profitable and interesting if someone with the requisite skills could posit some reasonable working definitions of classical music and then analyze in detail whether/how the Star Wars soundtrack fits. That would be educational.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 15, 2010, 05:06:15 AM
I just don't see Williams's work being kept "at bay" (see that list of awards . . . and, for that matter, this poll, which shows half the participants according the Star Wars soundtrack "classical music" status).  The man's rich, has plenty of powerful celebrity friends, and will never lack for work; he must be better known, around the world, than any proper composer.

If you answered this question of mine, I missed it, and I apologize. But what, in your opinion, are the reasons that Williams is not "canonized" as a serious composer?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 15, 2010, 05:52:20 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2010, 05:06:15 AMIf you answered this question of mine, I missed it, and I apologize. But what, in your opinion, are the reasons that Williams is not "canonized" as a serious composer?[/font]

Because he's not that good at it?

If you are going to define "classical" music in terms of the definable characteristics of the music, and not whether it is "good enough" to be considered classical, I can't see how you can exclude Williams.  It's just fairly formulaic classical music. 

At this point, I can't imagine that anyone has anything to contribute that they haven't already (me included) so if this goes on, it will be out of the conviction that if we repeat our view enough times everyone is bound to agree with us.   :P
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 15, 2010, 05:57:37 AM
Well, we could try to parse the distinction between written-out jazz and classical music with a jazz voice . . . .
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 15, 2010, 06:47:07 AM
Quote from: James on December 14, 2010, 07:28:23 PM
Right .. and his film composing like the composing of most film composers is just by and large mere pastiche & decorative sonic wallpaper supporting what's on the screen ... sure it takes some skill and some are better at it than others ..  but it's nothing really deep or serious musically. In otherwords, it's not Art Music, and it's genesis, aims and goals are entirely different.

*obligatory snarky comment*
Thank God that Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky and Vaughan WIlliams 7th symphonies never were associated with film scores.
*end of snarkiness....*

We had a long thread on this a while back, and while I'd agree that the goals of a film score are different, but to say none of it is deep or serious requires revisiting the two works I've cited above.   

It would also be interesting visit the assumption that the Glass's score to Koyaanisqatsi as not art music, given there degree of collaboration between Glass and the film's director, and the lack of traditional narrative in the film.

A lot of film scores make my ears bleed, and can really interfere with my getting into a film, but some really make it for me, and have value on their own.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 15, 2010, 07:37:16 AM
Quote from: James on December 15, 2010, 07:20:23 AM
None of it is deep or serious on a musical or artistic level... it's not standalone music created for the sake of music and for purely musical reasons, ...music for film (whomever is doing it, or however it is done) is in essence designed to provide wallpaper to the action and dialog on the screen, nothing more.

By the same reasoning, since Stravinsky's first three ballets were written to support ballet (dancing, not "purely musical reasons:")  they have no serious impact on 20th century music.   

I think there is an unstated (and unproved) axiom you are making that music which is written for anything other than a standalone performance is devoid  of serious worth.  Of course, once one acknowledges the exception, one disproves the axiom.   But, to pursue this further, isn't any work written on commission a sellout, and a compromise of the artist's freedom?

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on December 15, 2010, 07:45:09 AM
Quote from: James on December 15, 2010, 07:20:23 AM
None of it is deep or serious on a musical or artistic level... it's not standalone music created for the sake of music and for purely musical reasons, ...music for film (whomever is doing it, or however it is done) is in essence designed to provide wallpaper to the action and dialog on the screen, nothing more. i.e. Spielberg calls up Williams and a score is designed to suit his film.

Try listening to JW's music for Minority Report or A.I. That might change your opinion.

Aren't operas composed to "fit" librettos?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 15, 2010, 07:59:46 AM
Quote from: jowcol on December 15, 2010, 07:37:16 AM
By the same reasoning, since Stravinsky's first three ballets were written to support ballet (dancing, not "purely musical reasons:")  they have no serious impact on 20th century music.   

I think there is an unstated (and unproved) axiom you are making that music which is written for anything other than a standalone performance is devoid  of serious worth.  Of course, once one acknowledges the exception, one disproves the axiom.   But, to pursue this further, isn't any work written on commission a sellout, and a compromise of the artist's freedom?

These are very good considerations/counter-arguments.

[ I]sn't any work written on commission a sellout, and a compromise of the artist's freedom?

Not necessarily.  If the artist find the commission an odious imposition on his artistic freedoms, he is at liberty to decline the commission.  Generally, the artist is in a position to negotiate some of the terms of the artistic fulfillment of the commission.  Your mention of the famous first three Stravinsky ballets is most felicitous!  Take the case of Petrushka.  That was a ballet which, actually, was entirely Stravinsky's idea;  he and Dyagilev had reached an agreement for the ballet which would later become Le sacre, but Stravinsky "refreshed" himself compositionally by first sketching an orchestra piece with a concertante piano part.  When he played that for Dyagilev, the impresario liked it so well, that communal brainstorming resulted in a broad scheme for Petrushka, and Dyagilev left it to Benois (IIRC) and the composer himself to work out the scenario.

Quite apart from the stage action which it was meant to support, though, Le sacre has enjoyed a vigorous life in the concert hall (entire, no suite drawn therefrom).  That of itself is a striking contrast (though we might discuss the meaning of the contrast) with Star Wars, which was a matter of John Williams coming up with several bits for various characters/stage props.

Come to think of it, mention of Stravinsky's Le sacre will not reflect well on Williams, since "his" music for Tatooine is in large part flat-out plagiarized from the Introduction to Part II of Le sacre
; )

The case could be made, then, that, yes, Star Wars is classical music — after all, Williams liberally pilfered from the classical literature for the fulfillment of the movie score . . . .
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 15, 2010, 08:01:55 AM
Quote from: jowcol on December 15, 2010, 07:37:16 AM
By the same reasoning, since Stravinsky's first three ballets were written to support ballet (dancing, not "purely musical reasons:")  they have no serious impact on 20th century music.   

I think there is an unstated (and unproved) axiom you are making that music which is written for anything other than a standalone performance is devoid  of serious worth.  Of course, once one acknowledges the exception, one disproves the axiom.   But, to pursue this further, isn't any work written on commission a sellout, and a compromise of the artist's freedom?
Hmmm.  What is the difference, if any, between some movie music--say, Star Wars--and music written for ballet or incidental stage music which nearly everyone agrees is "serious" classical music?  What makes something like Sibelius's music for Shakespeare's The Tempest seem "classical" to me, whereas Williams's Star Wars music seems more like advertising jingles?  Is it just the relative genius of the composers?  Does the relative sophistication of the audiences for whom the music and movie/play/ballet are intended play a role?  Has it something to do with whether the music is written as a tone poem of sorts, telling a story...or if it's a pastiche of bits and pieces intended to hype the emotional content of one scene after another?  (Here something suitable for a chase, here suspense, here humor, there love.)

I have no answers that I claim are definitive, yet to me it seems clear that Star Wars doesn't cut the mustard as music to be taken seriously whereas something like Glass's score for The Illusionist might.  Does it have to do with originality, a characteristic voice, in which case it may not be the type of music at issue but rather its quality, for most movie scores strike me as derivative hack work that not even the composers themselves would expect to be regarded as similar in status to work by Beethoven or Mahler?   

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 15, 2010, 08:14:14 AM
Suppose we were allowed a 3 second clip to decide what genre music is in?   In 3 seconds, we could distinguish jazz, from folk-rock, from metal, from folk, from broadway show tunes from classical.  In 3 seconds, could you say with certainty that Star Wars is not classical?  The technique is "classical" but the product is commercial. 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 15, 2010, 08:30:56 AM
A few more thoughts, too:

We're talking about music, art, culture; so I don't know that it is at all appropriate to disallow quality as a determinant.  But I mean "objective" matters of quality (e.g., amateurish scoring).

The problem of defining classical music remains; but one consideration for me is, the source.  Who creates it?  Johann Albrechtsberger is nowhere near so good a composer as the greats, but the music he wrote, he wrote professionally.  He didn't make embarrassing errors in scoring, e.g.

I think Sackbut's point is well taken: Star Wars is the fulfillment of a cinematic requirement, in the guise of classical music.  It wasn't a 30-minute composition (as Le sacre is); nor a composite composition of Williams's design, consisting of expertly constructed discrete numbers (as Otello or The Nutcracker is); nor was it film music composed with the background of one who has the capacity to create those large, independent works (as Shostakovich, Copland or Vaughan Williams was).  Take Williams out of the context of furnishing apt "sound background," on demand according to the specs of the director — a task for which Williams has great talent, and ample skills — and he is out of his depth.  Because he is not a composer.  (For the record, yes, I understand that Yo Yo Ma would defend the title of composer for John Williams.)

BTW, and of course it is only another opinion thrown into the stew, but a friend of mine who studied film scoring at the Berklee College of Music finds it incredible that anyone would put Williams in the same class as Shostakovich, Copland or Vaughan Williams.  Next time I see him, I should ask him what his thoughts are regarding how the label "classical music" fits in with this hierarchy of musical activities . . . .
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Daverz on December 15, 2010, 08:34:39 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 14, 2010, 03:04:51 PM
Well, say a concert suite has been made of a string of Beatles songs (and it may well have been done).  Does that make the Beatles "classical music"?

The concert suite is classical music.  Light classical music, but still classical music.  Certainly it doesn't stop being classical music because of the origins of the themes or a perceived lack of seriousness.

I think some of you just don't like the association with popular commercial films, or have some other issues.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 15, 2010, 08:36:40 AM
Gosh, I hope you're not using issues as a dirty word . . . .
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 15, 2010, 08:41:44 AM
Quote from: Daverz on December 15, 2010, 08:34:39 AM
The concert suite is classical music.  Light classical music, but still classical music.  Certainly it doesn't stop being classical music because of the origins of the themes or a perceived lack of seriousness.

I don't mean music written on the themes of Beatles songs; I mean orchestrated Beatles songs. So (to clarify my original question) "Paperback Writer" as recorded by the Fab Four is not classical music (right?), but if we score it for a chamber orchestra and play it on a Boston Pops concert, it's light classical music?

A counter-example:  "Sofa" by Frank Zappa, a gospel waltz as recorded on One Size Fits All.  There is a (Dutch, I think) baroque ensemble which has arranged "Sofa" . . . is this now (light) classical music?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 15, 2010, 08:43:42 AM
Is the orchestral music which George Martin wrote for Yellow Submarine classical music?  Including essentially an orchestral scoring of "Yellow Submarine" . . . .
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 15, 2010, 10:58:33 AM


Quote from: James on December 15, 2010, 08:06:21 AM
Now you're trying to stretch things to ridiculous proportions ... it's not the same at all obviously, not even close. It's more the other way around. Everything evolves around the music! And a dance presentation can be suited to any music, I'd seen it done time & time again. There is no dance, without the music afterall. And name me one film score (or film composer) that even approaches a composer like Stravinsky; or the freshness, boldness & originality of those 3 pieces of music (that people can prance around in leotards to, or not). Can't be done.

Guilty as charged.  I mentioned these for a reason, and, no James, I can't name anybody who primarily writes film scores as someone who could stack up next to Stravinsky's first 3 ballets.  For that matter, I can't think very few "serious art music" composers that can rise to that level. (Although I love Alwyn....)   I just wanted to point out some potential weaknesses in the "serious artist must have total freedom and detachment from any sort of commercial concerns" chestnut. 

Quote from: James on December 15, 2010, 08:39:42 AM
And what real deep musician who takes their music seriously would want their 'music' premiered in such a way? Often buried & competing in the audio mix of constant dialog and sound effects associated with film. Can you imagine ..

Hmmm.  Stravinsky, who we have just said great things about, really wanted to write film scores for MGM, but could not meet their time lines.  Since Stravinsky fits this profile , does this mean he was not a "real deep musician?"  Can you imagine....

Seriously, even if they aren't trying to aim for the most common denominator, most musicians still want to communicate with some sort of  audience and pay the bills. 

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2010, 07:59:46 AM
These are very good considerations/counter-arguments.

Your mention of the famous first three Stravinsky ballets is most felicitous!  Take the case of Petrushka.  That was a ballet which, actually, was entirely Stravinsky's idea;  he and Dyagilev had reached an agreement for the ballet which would later become Le sacre, but Stravinsky "refreshed" himself compositionally by first sketching an orchestra piece with a concertante piano part.  When he played that for Dyagilev, the impresario liked it so well, that communal brainstorming resulted in a broad scheme for Petrushka, and Dyagilev left it to Benois (IIRC) and the composer himself to work out the scenario.

Quite apart from the stage action which it was meant to support, though, Le sacre has enjoyed a vigorous life in the concert hall (entire, no suite drawn therefrom).  That of itself is a striking contrast (though we might discuss the meaning of the contrast) with Star Wars, which was a matter of John Williams coming up with several bits for various characters/stage props.

Karl hit a good point, and that was collaboration.  (In both Nevsky and Koyaaniqatsi, for example, the composition and film editing were interwoven to the point where it was truly a creative process. )  I think it is also a sign of skill to work around another artist or medium and still produce something valuable.

I  agree that  another useful criteria is the performance  life of the score outside of the original intention.


A final point-- which may also feed into the "light classical" discussion is the need to grow and sustain audiences for orchestral music.    To keep this form vital, I feel that some crossover material is important.  The director of our county's school orchestras makes a point of performing lots of film scores at local malls--stuff like Pirates of the Caribbean (which I think is a fun listen, but not in the same phylum as the first three Stravinsky ballets).  Although I've seen him conduct premieres of "serious" works with the same orchestra, he has a valid point that to bring more people in, and film music is the one type of orchestral music that the "vast unwashed" can readily accept.  It's like being a pusher, and starting them out on the light stuff before you hook them on the hard stuff.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 15, 2010, 11:09:36 AM
The first Ewok's Dance is free, little boy!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 15, 2010, 11:43:27 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 15, 2010, 07:45:09 AM
Aren't operas composed to "fit" librettos?

No. They are composed to illuminate dramatic actions and characterizations by means of music.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 15, 2010, 11:45:22 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2010, 08:30:56 AM
A few more thoughts, too:
Because he is not a composer. 

Now he's not a composer? So what is he? This discussion has entered the surreal I think. Under any generally accepted definition of 'composer', John Williams certainly would be considered a composer. Your hatred and disdain of him don't change that.

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 15, 2010, 11:46:42 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on December 15, 2010, 11:45:22 AM
Now he's not a composer? So what is he? This discussion has entered the surreal I think. Under any generally accepted definition of 'composer', John Williams certainly would be considered a composer. Your hatred and disdain of him don't change that.

Dude, no hatred in the least.  Where do you fancy that?

What is he? A musician who scores films, and with enormous success.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 15, 2010, 11:51:55 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2010, 11:46:42 AM
Dude, no hatred in the least.  Where do you fancy that?

What is he? A musician who scores films, and with enormous success.

If he's not an arranger, but is writing out  some "original" material for musicians to play, I'd call him a composer.    Even if everything he creates  is derivative  dreck.   

I guess I don't have due reverence for the term, but hopefully have due reverence for many individual composers, living or dead.



Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 15, 2010, 11:57:25 AM
Quote from: jowcol on December 15, 2010, 11:51:55 AM
If he's not an arranger, but is writing out  some "original" material for musicians to play, I'd call him a composer.    Even if everything he creates  is derivative  dreck.

I guess I don't have due reverence for the term, but hopefully have due reverence for many individual composers, living or dead.

Sure. Myself, I don't consider Thomas Kinkade an artist either; but an enthusiast for Kinkade's work (and there are many) would ask exactly the same question. He isn't an artist? What is he then?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 15, 2010, 11:59:29 AM
You know something quite incidentally amusing . . . the poll registers 28 No and 27 Yes, but informs us that 50 members have voted.

My guess is that five of the voters have since deactivated their accounts.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 15, 2010, 12:06:06 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2010, 11:57:25 AM
Sure. Myself, I don't consider Thomas Kinkade an artist either; but an enthusiast for Kinkade's work (and there are many) would ask exactly the same question. He isn't an artist? What is he then?
Exactly.  I even have friends who have purchased some of his stuff and are proud of their possessions.  And I would not remotely consider discussing this topic with them.  The duty of tolerance falls on those whose compass of understanding is greater.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: MN Dave on December 15, 2010, 12:07:37 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 15, 2010, 12:06:06 PM
The duty of tolerance falls on those whose compass of understanding is greater.

I like it.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 15, 2010, 12:11:20 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2010, 11:57:25 AM
Sure. Myself, I don't consider Thomas Kinkade an artist either; but an enthusiast for Kinkade's work (and there are many) would ask exactly the same question. He isn't an artist? What is he then?

In the visual arts, I'd fully consider Warhol to be an artist-- but that's not to say I would have paid much for any of his work.

Let's get to the life or death matters..

Okay, but do you hold Richard Clayderman to be a human being or a harbinger of the apocalypse?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510ERWB4GPL.jpg)


If if the latter, are John Tesh and Yanni also part of the  four horsemen?

.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 15, 2010, 12:14:29 PM
Someday I must hear Clayderman.  What does he do?  Model tuxedos?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 15, 2010, 12:17:00 PM
I wish I could tie a butterfly.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Daverz on December 15, 2010, 12:17:58 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2010, 08:43:42 AM
Is the orchestral music which George Martin wrote for Yellow Submarine classical music?  Including essentially an orchestral scoring of "Yellow Submarine" . . . .

Why not?  I think it would be in the long tradition of British light classical music.   
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 15, 2010, 12:19:55 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2010, 11:46:42 AM
Dude, no hatred in the least.  Where do you fancy that?

What is he? A musician who scores films, and with enormous success.
Every post you write seems to contain so much disdain and contempt for the man and his work - it seemed a logical conclusion.

Most people would call him a composer (he's listed as such everywhere I can find) - he certainly fits the definition. Why are you so adamant that he is not?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: MN Dave on December 15, 2010, 12:20:24 PM
Unless applied to a certain period of time in music history, the term "classical" has become pretty much useless IMO.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 15, 2010, 12:23:23 PM
Quote from: James on December 15, 2010, 08:06:21 AM
And a dance presentation can be suited to any music, I'd seen it done time & time again.

That one I don't accept at all. The ballets of Stravinsky, for example, are all collaborations, most of course with George Balanchine - and the interdependence and specificity of relationship between music and dance is among the key components of these works' success. Agreed, you can listen to Petrouchka, Apollo, Agon without knowing their choreography (Le Sacre being, to my mind, the exception that proves the rule, because no choreography I have seen for it presents the work as strongly as in a purely concert version). But each of the other works is only enhanced by seeing it, and especially with Agon the interplay of dance and music is truly mind-boggling.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 15, 2010, 12:24:00 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 15, 2010, 12:17:58 PM
Why not?  I think it would be in the long tradition of British light classical music.   

Yes, I think you may well be right.  George Martin's work on that album surprised me, I found myself liking it so well.  Here's a conundrum:  Martin himself (not saying this of the four moptops) never wrote anything so enormously catchy and popular as the Main Title for Star Wars, but the music he furnished for Yellow Submarine IMO easily outclasses the level of Williams's work.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 15, 2010, 12:24:08 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2010, 12:17:00 PM
I wish I could tie a butterfly.
A skill of which I am inordinately proud.  ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 15, 2010, 12:26:41 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 15, 2010, 12:23:23 PM
That one I don't accept at all. The ballets of Stravinsky, for example, are all collaborations, most of course with George Balanchine - and the interdependence and specificity of relationship between music and dance is among the key components of these works' success. Agreed, you can listen to Petrouchka, Apollo, Agon without knowing their choreography (Le Sacre being, to my mind, the exception that proves the rule, because no choreography I have seen for it presents the work as strongly as in a purely concert version). But each of the other works is only enhanced by seeing it, and especially with Agon the interplay of dance and music is truly mind-boggling.

Interestingly enough, it has been ventured by some that at the premiere of Le Sacre in 1913, it was the choreography that was more radical, and the concert version without the choreography garnered respect fairly quickly.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 15, 2010, 12:27:52 PM
Quote from: jowcol on December 15, 2010, 12:26:41 PM
Interestingly enough, it has been ventured by some that at the premiere of Le Sacre in 1913, it was the choreography that was more radical, and the concert version without the choreography garnered respect fairly quickly.
Some=all, in this case?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 15, 2010, 12:29:46 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2010, 11:59:29 AM
You know something quite incidentally amusing . . . the poll registers 28 No and 27 Yes, but informs us that 50 members have voted.

My guess is that five of the voters have since deactivated their accounts.


This was a flawed poll to start with, since "Banana" what not an option. 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 15, 2010, 12:30:38 PM
Quote from: ukrneal on December 15, 2010, 12:19:55 PM
Every post you write seems to contain so much disdain and contempt for the man and his work - it seemed a logical conclusion.

Only if you entirely disregard the musical content of what I have had to say on this thread.  I have musical, professional and perfectly dispassionate quarrels with his work; these are all fairly well documented in my posts on this thread. No hatred enters into it in the least.  I wonder why you feel the need to reduce my part in the conversation to this red herring?

Quote from: ukrnealMost people would call him a composer (he's listed as such everywhere I can find) - he certainly fits the definition. Why are you so adamant that he is not?

Chiefly, the compositions which (as I mentioned before) I heard live in Symphony Hall.

In brief, if there were a composer who scored for the orchestra at so poor a level, and whose musical content was as negligible as those pieces, but who was not an international musical superstar whose name is a household word, there is no way it would have been programmed on a Boston Symphony concert. No bloody way.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 15, 2010, 12:35:53 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2010, 12:30:38 PM
Only if you entirely disregard the musical content of what I have had to say on this thread.  I have musical, professional and perfectly dispassionate quarrels with his work; these are all fairly well documented in my posts on this thread. No hatred enters into it in the least.  I wonder why you feel the need to reduce my part in the conversation to this red herring?
Reminds me of much of what passes for political discussion these days:

A: "The Constitution enumerates specific powers of Congress, the Executive, and the Court, and explicitly reserves all others to the States and the people."
B: "You're just a stupid, ignorant, redneck Racist!"
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Daverz on December 15, 2010, 12:44:53 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2010, 08:41:44 AM
I don't mean music written on the themes of Beatles songs; I mean orchestrated Beatles songs. So (to clarify my original question) "Paperback Writer" as recorded by the Fab Four is not classical music (right?), but if we score it for a chamber orchestra and play it on a Boston Pops concert, it's light classical music?

A counter-example:  "Sofa" by Frank Zappa, a gospel waltz as recorded on One Size Fits All.  There is a (Dutch, I think) baroque ensemble which has arranged "Sofa" . . . is this now (light) classical music?


As a judge on Classical Music with the Stars,  I'd disallow it.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 15, 2010, 12:46:20 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2010, 12:30:38 PM
Only if you entirely disregard the musical content of what I have had to say on this thread.  I have musical, professional and perfectly dispassionate quarrels with his work; these are all fairly well documented in my posts on this thread. No hatred enters into it in the least.  I wonder why you feel the need to reduce my part in the conversation to this red herring?

Chiefly, the compositions which (as I mentioned before) I heard live in Symphony Hall.

In brief, if there were a composer who scored for the orchestra at so poor a level, and whose musical content was as negligible as those pieces, but who was not an international musical superstar whose name is a household word, there is no way it would have been programmed on a Boston Symphony concert. No bloody way.

Ok. I stand corrected. You have disdain and contempt for the man, not hatred (since I wrote that twice, and you didn't call me out on it, I assume you are ok with those). My apologies for the misunderstanding.

As to red herrings, please let us know what more your friend thinks.

And I finally see it now. You are ignoring anything not written for the concert hall - that is, all his film scores. Am I to understand that writers of film music are not composers?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Daverz on December 15, 2010, 12:51:15 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 15, 2010, 12:35:53 PM
Reminds me of much of what passes for political discussion these days:

A: "The Constitution enumerates specific powers of Congress, the Executive, and the Court, and explicitly reserves all others to the States and the people."
B: "You're just a stupid, ignorant, redneck Racist!"

I've never seen a conversation like that one.  I have seen ones like:

A:"The words 'separation of church and state' ain't in the Constitution.  The Constitution is a sacred, unalterable document given to us by our Christian Founding Fathers... We should repeal birthright citizenship!"
B: "You're just a stupid, ignorant, redneck Racist!"

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Daverz on December 15, 2010, 01:09:06 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2010, 11:57:25 AM
Sure. Myself, I don't consider Thomas Kinkade an artist either; but an enthusiast for Kinkade's work (and there are many) would ask exactly the same question. He isn't an artist? What is he then?

He certainly fits the commonly accepted definition of "artist".  Saying someone is not an artist because you reject his aesthetics is a private meaning of the word that no one else is bound to respect.  Anyway, I don't think this is a good analogy for the classical music argument (bad art vs. good art, when I think what you really mean is, perhaps, artist vs. technician).
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 15, 2010, 02:50:35 PM
Quote from: James on December 15, 2010, 02:04:27 PM
You may not accept it, but it still is done time & time again ... and to all kinds of music aswell,  music can elicit all manor of dance especially for those who dance & choreograph it for a living, but the music is central. Without it - no inspiration or angle for the dance. And Stravinsky went to town with his skills up to that point, a lot more free creative reign and a personal musical lanuage, vision etc. Besides, it's nothing like film where people and sound effects are essentally farting all over your music. Personally, I can't stand having the musical experience tainted with visuals, it doesn't enhance the music for me, it detracts from it.

What you're saying may well apply to older classics like Nutcracker and Swan Lake that have been re-choreographed over the decades, but certainly not for any of the Stravinsky-Balanchine collaborations. And if you think with such works "the musical experience is tainted with visuals," then I doubt anyone would be more enraged than Stravinsky himself.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 15, 2010, 06:30:10 PM
Quote from: James on December 15, 2010, 04:03:53 PM
It applies and can apply to all & any music past or present that has dance choreographed to it. And I don't think Stravinsky would have really cared on your 2nd pt. .. he praised concert performances and albums of his own music too afterall. But all of this knitpicking on this is outside of the discussion here (i.e is Star Wars art music cut from the same cloth as the 'real-stuff'). It obviously isn't.

Absolute nonsense, not nitpicking at all, and shows a complete lack of understanding of the nature of dance in general and the nature of the Balanchine-Stravinsky collaboration in particular.

And don't blame me for digressing when I respond to a point you yourself brought up in the first place.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 15, 2010, 06:47:15 PM
Quote from: James on December 15, 2010, 06:41:41 PM
not nonsense pal, and sure seems like knitpicking to me considering what this thread is about, but who cares .. all i can say is this, i like all that Stravinsky music, much of it i love and i've never had to watch anyone dance to it, nor do i want to, or need to. many people are like that ... and thanks to Igor & many others for recording all of it for us to enjoy in the pleasure of our own homes. the music stands on it's own 2 feet without a doubt; and is way beyond any film music experience.

Nice straw man argument, "pal," considering that you're attempting to attack me for something I never denied:

QuoteAgreed, you can listen to Petrouchka, Apollo, Agon without knowing their choreography (Le Sacre being, to my mind, the exception that proves the rule, because no choreography I have seen for it presents the work as strongly as in a purely concert version).

And again, since you're so quick on the trigger finger, I reiterate:

QuoteDon't blame me for digressing when I respond to a point you yourself brought up in the first place.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 15, 2010, 07:08:26 PM
Quote from: James on December 15, 2010, 07:03:06 PM
... at least in essence we agree i think on this topic, that being ... Star Wars is not art music; and even trying to compare it to ballet music (as one poster suggested) doesn't work; they're clearly not the same at all from an artistic and musical vantage point. Tchaikovsky or Stravinsky vs. Williams? for instance.

Regarding John Williams, you will not get me to admit any more than that he is a skillful purveyor of "effective" but highly commercialized background music for Hollywood blockbusters.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 15, 2010, 07:37:48 PM
Quote from: James on December 15, 2010, 07:20:09 PM
Right .. as I thought; and since you say that, you would probably agree that trying to draw any sort of parallel with 'that stuff' & Stravinsky's music is a bit of a stretch in terms of it's true artistic & musical merit & value, right?

I would agree to that.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 15, 2010, 08:05:31 PM
So we have a poll that comes in at 51% to 49%, and two people in a nasty argument, finding out that they actually agree.  Fascinating thread.   0:)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Lethevich on December 15, 2010, 10:28:04 PM
I think the poll result confirms it: everybody is wrong.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2010, 03:04:57 AM
Quote from: Lethe on December 15, 2010, 10:28:04 PM
I think the poll result confirms it: everybody is wrong.

Splendid, and we can all get back to listening to Schoenberg!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 16, 2010, 04:17:06 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 15, 2010, 08:05:31 PM
So we have a poll that comes in at 51% to 49%, and two people in a nasty argument, finding out that they actually agree.  Fascinating thread.   0:)

He's still dead wrong about Mozart, Beethoven, and the ballet, so the good news is that there's plenty of room left for future nastiness.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 16, 2010, 05:01:47 AM
Quote from: James on December 15, 2010, 08:39:42 AM
And what real deep musician who takes their music seriously would want their 'music' premiered in such a way? Often buried & competing in the audio mix of constant dialog and sound effects associated with film. Can you imagine ..

Funny, but a lot of baroque and classical music that we still enjoy today was made to order, made to earn a buck, made for playing at specific occasions, and apparently ephemeral by your Romantic ideal of the artist as some "deep" thinker nobly expressing the inmost secrets of his soul for a select elite of listeners. There's nothing inherently wrong with music as practical, remunerative craft.

And while it's true there's plenty of bad sonic wallpaper film music to go along with bad films, there are plenty of films where the score is an integral part of an artistic unity. Better music in better films plays an enormous, if not indispensable, role in the emotional impact being made. It's not utterly subservient to the photography, acting, writing, production design, etc., but rather a partner. No shame there.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 16, 2010, 05:04:24 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 16, 2010, 03:04:57 AM
Splendid, and we can all get back to listening to Schoenberg!

Who, incidentally, tried to bargain with MGM for $50 thousand to write a film score.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidW on December 16, 2010, 06:06:32 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 15, 2010, 11:57:25 AM
Sure. Myself, I don't consider Thomas Kinkade an artist either; but an enthusiast for Kinkade's work (and there are many) would ask exactly the same question. He isn't an artist? What is he then?

I know, I know-- Kinkade is a shrewd businessman. ;D

Anyway I think MN Dave is right-- defining classical music is elusive, which is these arguments don't end satisfactorily for anyone.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: MN Dave on December 16, 2010, 06:45:24 AM
I was just saying the term "classical" has been bandied about until it's lost all meaning.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 16, 2010, 06:51:02 AM
Quote from: Sackbut on December 16, 2010, 06:45:24 AM
I was just saying the term "classical" has been bandied about until it's lost all meaning.

Well, that's quite a lot of meaning. I'm inclined to think that a work's status as being "classical" has as much to do with the context in which the work is conceived, performed, and listened to as with the actual content of the music per se.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 16, 2010, 06:54:45 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 16, 2010, 06:51:02 AM
Well, that's quite a lot of meaning. I'm inclined to think that a work's status as being "classical" has as much to do with the context in which the work is conceived, performed, and listened to as with the actual content of the music per se.
That makes at least two of us.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: MN Dave on December 16, 2010, 06:58:29 AM
Quote from: James on December 16, 2010, 06:48:49 AM
Yea ... I dislike the term aswell, I prefer calling it Art Music myself ... for me it connotes 'the whole' as opposed to associating the legacy to a particular era or set of older composers.

Yes, "art music" or "serious music."
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2010, 06:59:29 AM
Alex Ross doesn't like any of them. Not that he makes the rules, of course. (Just saying.)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 16, 2010, 07:45:41 AM
Quote from: Sackbut on December 16, 2010, 06:58:29 AM
Yes, "art music" or "serious music."
Doesn't work for me, since I regard lots of non-classical music as "art music" or "serious music."  But classical music works pretty well to describe music written by trained composers working in the centuries old Western tradition, intended for concert performance by trained musicians and expected to have lasting rather than ephemeral interest.  If someone like Williams were to take his film score and reduce it to a coherent concert suite, similar to Bernstein's Symphonic Dances from West Side Story, I would consider that "classical music"--but not the film's background music itself.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 16, 2010, 08:22:34 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on December 16, 2010, 05:01:47 AM
Funny, but a lot of baroque and classical music that we still enjoy today was made to order, made to earn a buck, made for playing at specific occasions, and apparently ephemeral by your Romantic ideal of the artist as some "deep" thinker nobly expressing the inmost secrets of his soul for a select elite of listeners. There's nothing inherently wrong with music as practical, remunerative craft.

And while it's true there's plenty of bad sonic wallpaper film music to go along with bad films, there are plenty of films where the score is an integral part of an artistic unity. Better music in better films plays an enormous, if not indispensable, role in the emotional impact being made. It's not utterly subservient to the photography, acting, writing, production design, etc., but rather a partner. No shame there.

I support this post. I also would classify many composers of film music in the genre classical, same with video games as well.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 16, 2010, 08:28:14 AM
Quote from: James on December 16, 2010, 08:25:11 AM
Video games?!?! You gotta be shittin' me! lol

Not at all. I'm thinking specifically of a game like Arcanum, but I'd also probably put someone like Jack Wall into the mix as well.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2010, 08:29:45 AM
Quote from: GraziosoBetter music in better films plays an enormous, if not indispensable, role in the emotional impact being made. It's not utterly subservient to the photography, acting, writing, production design, etc., but rather a partner. No shame there.

A perfectly good point. And in harmony with my ideas that what a film scorer does, is furnish materials which the film director/editor (the actual composer of the finished result, the film) uses as he sees fit.

A composer is one who can not only come up with a nifty musical idea, but who can shape that in a larger musical form.  And not just a cookie-cutter A-A-B form.

That is my larger point over whether someone is a composer. (Not that those who wish to disregard what I have to say, on the spurious basis that I allegedly hates, hates, hates John Williams, really care.)

Obviously there are different contexts for the word composer, as there are for other everyday words, such as day.  ASCAP is an organization which helps regulate the payment of royalties to writers, composers, & al.  In their scheme of things, John Williams is a composer;  and power to them.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 16, 2010, 08:35:46 AM
Quote from: James on December 16, 2010, 08:23:10 AM
And I would consider Williams's pursuit of the art-form and that suite pretty easily falling into the 'ephemeral pop culture commerical' territory and outside of that tradition (whatever you want to call it); way outside & below the goal & integrity of serious musicians that the legacy is really built on, past & present; and certainly nothing musically valuable. Sure it can be fun & entertaining for people who enjoy that sort-of thing, but it shouldn't be confused with the 'real stuff', ever.
So Tchaikovsky's ballet suites, Sibelius's theatrical suites, Bernstein's Symphonic Dances, and so on, are ephemeral pop culture commercial...way outside & below the goal & integrity of serious musicians...nothing musically valuable...[and not] the real stuff?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 16, 2010, 08:38:47 AM
Here's some video game music I'd classify as classical:
Arcanum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftvpi-6Z6qw

Jade Empire:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHYARoLPpDw

Chrono Trigger:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caRKvQAyU7M

And one could go on and on..
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 16, 2010, 09:06:09 AM
Quote from: James on December 16, 2010, 08:40:28 AM
What do you think? You think those composers seriously fall into that?!?!?!
I don't, but you do and I wonder why...or would, if I hadn't learned shortly after you arrived here not to expect rationality from you but only rationalization for your prejudices.  Your statements re. concert suites made from music composed for film would apply equally to concert suites made from music composed for theatre and dance, suggesting that you believe there is some objective standard that applies and not just taste.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 16, 2010, 09:15:00 AM
Quote from: James on December 15, 2010, 02:28:44 PM
What do you think? Do you honestly think it hurts his stature considering everything he did up to that point in music? (or continued to do up until his death?) I'm sure he was then intrigued by the film process but this doesn't mean anything. This goes along with something that I said earlier that there are rare exceptions of some deeper musicians (who have their own voice, reputation) usually associated with & steeped in 'more serious writing' trying their hand at film, but that doesn't mean anything or detract from what they have already done elsewhere in much deeper avenues of the art.

I personally don't think it has anything to do with his stature or legacy. I was just pointing out a logical extension of a previous assertion that you had made  in the quoted text that didn't leave much wiggle room.

I agree with your notion of "rare exceptions"--although I believe maybe they are not as rare.  A  lot of times its beneficial for a composer to step outside of their comfort zone and deal with new challenges and constraints provided by other art forms and media.

Question-- who defines "deeper avenues of art?".    I'm certainty not going to take that role on for myself.  Both of us have expressed on this forum that Beethoven doesn't really rock our world.  Does this mean that neither of us are capable of discerning deep art?


Also, to bring up Stravinsky again, he said that one shouldn't compose unless one had a specific problem to solve.  I'm not sure if making "deep art" was so much a goal, but a byproduct of his creative process.



Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 16, 2010, 09:17:47 AM
Quote from: James on December 15, 2010, 07:42:57 PM
So we're totally on the same page, what the hell happened here??! lol (probably my fault)

I think it was some of the broader assertions that invited counterexamples.... 

For the record, I was never a big fan of the Star Wars sound track.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 16, 2010, 09:25:44 AM
Quote from: jowcol on December 16, 2010, 09:17:47 AM
For the record, I was never a big fan of the Star Wars sound track.

I can agree with this. I think most of the music from that franchise is shit.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 16, 2010, 12:40:03 PM
Quote from: Philoctetes on December 16, 2010, 09:25:44 AM
I can agree with this. I think most of the music from that franchise is shit.

But imagine the value if an orchestra couples something like a Star Wars suite with the Firebird Suite, and at least one person in the audience who came to see Star Wars walked away a changed person, having realized that the Final from the Firebird had so much more to offer.  Wouldn't it be worth it? 

I think one of the reasons I try not to dump on "light classical" is because it helps keep musicians employed, and may actually provide the entry point for new converts.   
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2010, 12:42:14 PM
Quote from: jowcol on December 16, 2010, 12:40:03 PM
But imagine the value if an orchestra couples something like a Star Wars suite with the Firebird Suite, and at least one person in the audience who came to see Star Wars walked away a changed person, having realized that the Final from the Firebird had so much more to offer.  Wouldn't it be worth it? 

I think one of the reasons I try not to dump on "light classical" is because it helps keep musicians employed, and may actually provide the entry point for new converts.   

I'm largely with you.

A little piece of me inside dies, though, when I hear someone praise André Rieu as one of the world's great conductors . . . .
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 16, 2010, 02:01:53 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 16, 2010, 12:42:14 PM
I'm largely with you.

A little piece of me inside dies, though, when I hear someone praise André Rieu as one of the world's great conductors . . . .


I also feel a bit violated (and not in a good way) when I have  to say nice things about "pops" orchestras, and other crossover stuff that doesn't have the least bit of adventure to it.  But I still feel the need to encourage it. 


Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 16, 2010, 04:03:22 PM
Quote from: jowcol on December 16, 2010, 02:01:53 PM
I also feel a bit violated (and not in a good way) when I have  to say nice things about "pops" orchestras, and other crossover stuff that doesn't have the least bit of adventure to it.  But I still feel the need to encourage it.

You don't have to do anything. And it sounds more like you're enabling rather than encouraging.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 16, 2010, 04:06:06 PM
Quote from: jowcol on December 16, 2010, 12:40:03 PM
But imagine the value if an orchestra couples something like a Star Wars suite with the Firebird Suite, and at least one person in the audience who came to see Star Wars walked away a changed person, having realized that the Final from the Firebird had so much more to offer.  Wouldn't it be worth it? 

I think one of the reasons I try not to dump on "light classical" is because it helps keep musicians employed, and may actually provide the entry point for new converts.

I have no objections to that type of program. Although, I'd much rather they focus on the contemporary fare, but I see nothing wrong with linking 'light' with 'heavy'. Although all of this semantical shit is a bit tiresome. I don't see much difference between Williams and Stravinsky. I value them on the same level.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 16, 2010, 04:18:25 PM
Quote from: James on December 16, 2010, 03:43:20 PM
Where did I say that musicians such as Tchaikovsky, Sibelius, Bernstein (or Stravinsky) are on par with what Williams does. It's not the same thing at all, not even in the same vicinity (you seem to know this). So, to even try to draw some sort of parallel is ridiculous. Certainly there is so much more to what they did.
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 16, 2010, 07:45:41 AM
Doesn't work for me, since I regard lots of non-classical music as "art music" or "serious music."  But classical music works pretty well to describe music written by trained composers working in the centuries old Western tradition, intended for concert performance by trained musicians and expected to have lasting rather than ephemeral interest.  If someone like Williams were to take his film score and reduce it to a coherent concert suite, similar to Bernstein's Symphonic Dances from West Side Story, I would consider that "classical music"--but not the film's background music itself.
Quote from: James on December 16, 2010, 08:23:10 AM
And I would consider Williams's pursuit of the art-form and that suite pretty easily falling into the 'ephemeral pop culture commerical' territory and outside of that tradition (whatever you want to call it); way outside & below the goal & integrity of serious musicians that the legacy is really built on, past & present; and certainly nothing musically valuable. Sure it can be fun & entertaining for people who enjoy that sort-of thing, but it shouldn't be confused with the 'real stuff', ever.
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 16, 2010, 08:35:46 AM
So Tchaikovsky's ballet suites, Sibelius's theatrical suites, Bernstein's Symphonic Dances, and so on, are ephemeral pop culture commercial...way outside & below the goal & integrity of serious musicians...nothing musically valuable...[and not] the real stuff?
Quote from: James on December 16, 2010, 08:40:28 AM
What do you think? You think those composers seriously fall into that?!?!?!
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 16, 2010, 09:06:09 AM
I don't, but you do and I wonder why...or would, if I hadn't learned shortly after you arrived here not to expect rationality from you but only rationalization for your prejudices.  Your statements re. concert suites made from music composed for film would apply equally to concert suites made from music composed for theatre and dance, suggesting that you believe there is some objective standard that applies and not just taste.
You imply that some concert suites made from music written to support theatrical works are "classical music" (those by Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Sibelius, Bernstein, for instance), but you deny that similar work by Williams qualifies.  To me it seems that you might cogently assert that a Williams suite doesn't appeal to your tastes, but to deny its essential similarity of type makes no sense. 

Perhaps I'm missing something here.  If so, then perhaps you would be kind enough to explain it so that I and others similarly confused can correctly understand the point you seem to be trying to make.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 16, 2010, 04:21:33 PM
This is really off-topic but every time I see James/Mirror Image/etc. post, I think of that song Crawling in My Skin by Linkin Park.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 16, 2010, 04:55:15 PM
Quote from: James on December 16, 2010, 04:14:26 PM
With all due respect jowol, but this discussion is getting so ridiculous ... i mean come on, doesn't matter if you like LvB's style or not, you should be able to tell the HUGE astronomical differences between the 2 as far as music is concerned.

Is there any possibility that the horse was already out of the barn?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 17, 2010, 05:11:36 AM
Quote from: James on December 16, 2010, 04:45:50 PM
Similar work?!?! Those guys made condensed versions of essentially mindblowing, revolutionary, rich, elevating, door opening compositions and they did lots else too (music that stands on it's own 2 feet, on it's own merits, music that's powerful & rich, and valuable) ... how does this at all compare to what Williams does with his ephemeral popular culture decorative cheesy film pastiche. You would say that it's really similar musically? Other than the fact that he 'made a suite' (big deal), it's not anywhere near that stuff. I'm kinda shocked that you don't realize & hear the differences, or even consider the timeline even. I mean come on David, for chrissakes.. I know you do!

Unfortunately, your arguments regarding what is/isn't "good" music or "Classical" or "art" music always seem to boil down to the same thing in thread after thread on this forum: "I know it, it's obvious, anyone who doesn't view things my way is deaf or disingenuous." In other words, you supposedly know better yet never articulate rationally or with substantial evidence why you're right and everyone else is wrong.

You keep trying to freight your "art" music with terms like elevating, mind-blowing, powerful, deep, or serious and whatnot in order to distance or denigrate other music, but that misses vital points:

* a composer for so-called popular ephemera like film can be deadly serious about his craft, injecting into the work all his talent and creativity and not treating it as a lark
* working with other artists in a collaborative effort like film doesn't inherently invalidate a composer's efforts or results. Creative restraints can be a spur as much as a hindrance, and are you really ready to say that Bach was a lesser composer because he wasn't in a position to exercise full freedom with every piece he wrote, but rather had to write for church or royal patrons, was expected to use conventional forms, had to fit his music to received religious texts, etc.?
* music that you devalue or denigrate may, for other listeners, be deeply moving and elevating. Lots of people find classical music impenetrable or boring or silly but can be moved to tears by a pop song or "elevated" by a gospel tune.

The key problem here, it seems to me, is that you ultimately fall back on subjective criteria, but breaking music down into two categories, "James thinks it's art" and "James thinks it's not art," doesn't tell us anything useful about the Star Wars soundtrack, classical music, or film music.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 17, 2010, 05:17:19 AM
All well considered, Grazioso.

Of course, Philo's (e.g.) POV is an equal and opposite fallacy (I don't see much difference between Williams and Stravinsky. I value them on the same level.)  An inability to see the difference between Stravinsky and Williams is truly staggering.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: MN Dave on December 17, 2010, 05:19:35 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 17, 2010, 05:17:19 AM
All well considered, Grazioso.

Of course, Philo's (e.g.) POV is an equal and opposite fallacy (I don't see much difference between Williams and Stravinsky. I value them on the same level.)  An inability to see the difference between Stravinsky and Williams is truly staggering.


Not seeing the difference and valuing them on the same level are two entirely different processes, I think.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 17, 2010, 05:19:52 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 17, 2010, 05:17:19 AM
All well considered, Grazioso.

Of course, Philo's (e.g.) POV is an equal and opposite fallacy (I don't see much difference between Williams and Stravinsky. I value them on the same level.)  An inability to see the difference between Stravinsky and Williams is truly staggering.


That's quite incorrect, although an expected assumption. I see the difference.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 17, 2010, 05:22:10 AM
Quote from: Sackbut on December 17, 2010, 05:19:35 AM
Not seeing the difference and valuing them on the same level are two entirely different processes, I think.

Can be, yes.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 17, 2010, 05:33:38 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on December 17, 2010, 05:11:36 AM

* a composer for so-called popular ephemera like film can be deadly serious about his craft, injecting into the work all his talent and creativity and not treating it as a lark
* working with other artists in a collaborative effort like film doesn't inherently invalidate a composer's efforts or results. Creative restraints can be a spur as much as a hindrance, and are you really ready to say that Bach was a lesser composer because he wasn't in a position to exercise full freedom with every piece he wrote, but rather had to write for church or royal patrons, was expected to use conventional forms, had to fit his music to received religious texts, etc.?
* music that you devalue or denigrate may, for other listeners, be deeply moving and elevating. Lots of people find classical music impenetrable or boring or silly but can be moved to tears by a pop song or "elevated" by a gospel tune.

Word. 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 17, 2010, 07:20:45 AM
Quote from: James on December 16, 2010, 04:45:50 PM
Similar work?!?! Those guys made condensed versions of essentially mindblowing, revolutionary, rich, elevating, door opening compositions and they did lots else too (music that stands on it's own 2 feet, on it's own merits, music that's powerful & rich, and valuable) ... how does this at all compare to what Williams does with his ephemeral popular culture decorative cheesy film pastiche. You would say that it's really similar musically? Other than the fact that he 'made a suite' (big deal), it's not anywhere near that stuff. I'm kinda shocked that you don't realize & hear the differences, or even consider the timeline even. I mean come on David, for chrissakes.. I know you do!
Of course I hear significant differences, but whether I like Stravinsky more than Williams or even whether Stravinsky is objectively a better composer than Williams is completely beside the point.  The question at issue is "Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?"  It's a question about kind, not quality.

Personally, I'm not terribly fond of Williams's music (although I do like his bassoon concerto).  But that doesn't satisfy as a criterion to determine whether something's "classical" or not:  I like Miles's Kind of Blue, but don't regard that as classical; I don't like "Wellington's Victory," but do regard it as classical.

Nor do I think the Star Wars soundtrack counts as "classical.  "  Not because it's "cheesy"--heck, much of Wagner is cheesy, IMO--but because it lacks most of the qualities distinguishing "classical" music from "popular" and "folk" musics, such as the structural integrity Karl refers to.  It can't be faulted for that, however, because that wasn't the composer's intent.  He wanted 37 seconds of "building excitement" here, cut to 13 seconds of "budding love" there, followed by 10 seconds of "impending menace" and then 8 seconds of "music to accompany a big explosion!"  If he does that to serve the images well and manages to tie it all together with some kind of thematic links, such as Wagner or Williams's leitmotifs, we say he's a good "music drama" or "movie music" composer.

But, if he also--while composing the movie music--manages to create something that does hold together with the requisite structural and musical integrity we expect in classical concert pieces, whether fantasies, tone poems, suites, or full-blown symphonies...then I think that "something" would probably be recognized as "classical" music by most folks, just as most recognize such music by RVW, Prokofiev, Mendelssohn, et al as "classical music."

Good luck to you, James, and I hope this little discussion might be helpful to some member new to classical music from a background of pop whose lack of exposure leads him to equate "orchestral" music with "classical" music.

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 17, 2010, 07:55:28 AM
Well, the Atlanta symphony performed the Star Wars suite on the same program with Holst's Planets in 2009.  It was part of the regular Atlanta Symphony schedule, not some sort of pops concert, so Robert Spano and the Atlanta symphony seem to think the suite is classical music. 

http://www.vzwamp.com/e5-about-atlanta-symphony-orchestra-star-wars-and-more.php

The strategy seems to be to use the Star Wars piece to draw people in, then lock the doors and spring Holst's piece on them.  Good thing none of us was there, because actually hearing the music would probably make the discussion a lot less lively.

My feeling is that the movie score is not classical music (although it uses 'classical' technique) but that the suite is, although it may not be very good classical music.  I don't think it makes sense to exclude music from being "classical" because it supposedly does not contain sufficient artistic integrity, since that is not something that people will be able to agree on. 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 17, 2010, 08:10:57 AM
Quote from: Philoctetes on December 16, 2010, 04:21:33 PM
This is really off-topic but every time I see James/Mirror Image/etc. post, I think of that song Crawling in My Skin by Linkin Park.

That may be, but does that make the song classical music?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 17, 2010, 08:15:38 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 17, 2010, 07:55:28 AM
Well, the Atlanta symphony performed the Star Wars suite on the same program with Holst's Planets in 2009.  It was part of the regular Atlanta Symphony schedule, not some sort of pops concert, so Robert Spano and the Atlanta symphony seem to think the suite is classical music.

QuoteExplore the musical mystique of space travel with a stellar lineup: Holst's incredible symphonic masterpiece, The Planets (visually dazzling with high-definition footage of the planets shown on the big screens, courtesy of NASA); John Williams's out-of-this-world Star Wars suite; and Strauss's thrilling sonic adventure, Also sprach Zarathustra (immortalized in the Stanley Kubrick film, 2001: A Space Odyssey). ASO Assistant Conductor and League of American Orchestras Fellow Mei-Ann Chen conducts.

PROGRAM
STRAUSS: Also sprach Zarathustra
WILLIAMS: Star Wars suite
HOLST: The Planets

Must've been one loud concert.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 17, 2010, 08:17:21 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 17, 2010, 08:10:57 AM
That may be, but does that make the song classical music?

Really depends on how you define it..
:-*
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 17, 2010, 08:18:43 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 17, 2010, 07:55:28 AM
Well, the Atlanta symphony performed the Star Wars suite on the same program with Holst's Planets in 2009.  It was part of the regular Atlanta Symphony schedule, not some sort of pops concert, so Robert Spano and the Atlanta symphony seem to think the suite is classical music.

At this point, the argument becomes a little circular, in the manner of If enough people say "to you and I," then it becomes de facto correct grammar.

American orchestras (and especially orchestras in the interior) have struggled to keep/get "bums in seats." One strategy adopted for this is, Give the people what they want.  For instance, this very January, on the 13th through the 15th, the guest singer at the Nashville Symphony is Peter Cetera:


QuoteThe legendary voice for the group Chicago and a successful solo artist in his own right, Cetera will survey his hit-studded career, which includes "If You Leave Me Now," "You're the Inspiration, "The Glory of Love" and "The Next Time I Fall."

Personally, I like "If You Leave Me Now" all right;  but I suffer grave doubts that even this "legitimization" by venue makes classical music (yea, even light classical) of "The Glory of Love."

In Boston, at any rate (even here, where Williams is a local institution, as former director of the Boston Pops) a Star Wars "suite" will be regularly programmed on the Pops, but (so far as I know) never on a Boston Symphony subscription concert.  In Tanglewood, of course, all bets are off.

The circularity, then, is in a first-rank orchestra such as Atlanta programming such a "suite" (together with Mars, so that any discerning listener can put two and two together) on a "legit" program as popular appeasement . . . and then listeners concluding, Well, look at the programming: Guess what's classical!


Quote from: ScarpsGood think none of us was there, because actually hearing the music would probably make the discussion a lot less lively.

Do you really think so?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 17, 2010, 08:25:32 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 17, 2010, 08:18:43 AM
At this point, the argument becomes a little circular, in the manner of If enough people say "to you and I," then it becomes de facto correct grammar.

American orchestras (and especially orchestras in the interior) have struggled to keep/get "bums in seats." One strategy adopted for this is, Give the people what they want.  For instance, this very January, on the 13th through the 15th, the guest singer at the Nashville Symphony is Peter Cetera:

Not quite the same.  According to the fine print, this is from the "Bank of America Pops series" and it features a rock band with the orchestra playing along.   

The only thing to distinguish the Star Wars from incidental music from various plays and films is the fact that it is not as good.  There's been lots of classical music through the years that's unworthy, lord knows.  According to Tchaikovsky, that includes Brahms.   ???
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 17, 2010, 08:27:05 AM
Quote from: James on December 17, 2010, 08:25:04 AM
How's this from earlier ...

.. I don't think defining what Art Music is-is that elusive; it's a legacy that's been around for quite a long time, and it's steeped on a deep & scientific written tradition of music for ceremonial, concert & pedagogical purposes ...  & it's not confined to just 'the orchestra' or 'traditional' instruments any longer either. It's pursuit, concerns & goals are largely & purely musical; as opposed to popularity, business, commodification or commercialization.

Doesn't really do much for me, personally, but I have no dog in the fight. I think that if you allow in some, you'd have to allow in others. So if we're talking in a purely definitionally sense; then I'd say this discussion will only end in failure.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 17, 2010, 08:29:27 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 17, 2010, 08:25:32 AM
Not quite the same.  According to the fine print, this is from the "Bank of America Pops series" and it features a rock band with the orchestra playing along.   

Yes, but it's all in the schedule of the Nashville Symphony.  A schedule which includes the Adams and Reese Jazz Series and the SunTrust Classical Series.

A symphony orchestra, mind you, which has to label certain programs a Classical Series.

I suppose Nashville really would not support a full-time Symphony Orchestra, so they're essentially session men for . . . whatever.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 17, 2010, 08:36:52 AM
Quote from: James on December 17, 2010, 08:33:30 AM
Figures, typical response from someone who has been nothing more than just 'background noise' here.

Coming from a fellow that seemingly un-hinges his own defition to suit his feeble purposes. You're 'definition' is in quite a weak state, already taken to task by many of the other posters, but again, I do find you amusing, so I'm quite pleased with your selective reading range.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 17, 2010, 02:07:55 PM
Quote from: James on December 17, 2010, 07:50:47 AM
Now a parallel to Bach's sacred music ... when does it end. And the fact 'film cheese' (or a pop tune) moves people doesn't mean anything either.

If your characterization of classical/art music hinges on subjective notions like quality, then it certainly does matter. Is not one of art's traditional central purposes to move its audience? E.g., the catharsis of Greek tragedy, the devotional or propaganda aims of Medieval or Counter-Reformation Christian art, and so on. Could you point to classical composers prior to the 20th century who intentionally and explicitly took audience expectations/reactions out of the compositional equation?

Quote
Look, it's really not my way as you say, and it shouldn't need to be 'proved' at all. It's just common sense that anyone with enough musical experience & exposure should be able to easily distinguish differences between pop or film materials and oh; some of the names mentioned thus far... Bach, Beethoven, Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius etc. If you or anyone else here haven't the

That's just it: your "common sense" is not everyone's common sense. You take your personal judgments and biases as universal facts that no one need question.

I for one can distinguish between Stravinsky and Williams as easily as I can distinguish green from red, but that says nothing about their inherent merits or how to best classify their work. (And some people can't distinguish green from red, for that matter...)

Since you possess the ability to tell musical right from wrong, could you please provide some detailed analysis of the Star Wars soundtrack, with music examples, that shows how it fails to meet the criteria of serious art or classical music?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 17, 2010, 03:12:01 PM
I've never even really listened to Williams, but I found some lovely clips on youtube.

Viola Concerto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rse5ZLfGFXE

Bassoon Concerto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRphu9bm0VI
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 17, 2010, 04:08:27 PM
So obvious.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: petrarch on December 17, 2010, 04:41:23 PM
Quote from: James on December 17, 2010, 04:04:57 PM
Quality isn't a subjective notion. It actually exists.

So what's the formula for measuring it?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 17, 2010, 07:04:39 PM
It's obvious.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Lethevich on December 17, 2010, 10:49:46 PM
Quote from: James on December 17, 2010, 05:09:33 PM
There is no formula for measuring it, but it does exist.
This is a pretty brave thing to admit, as it's just asking for people to jump on your back about it - but I agree with you. The only easy measure - popular consensus - is a pretty poor way of doing things.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 02:39:06 AM
Quote from: James on December 17, 2010, 05:09:33 PM
There is no formula for measuring it, but it does exist.

I agree with this myself, but it would not lead to so preposterous a comment as "Mozart is very overrated."
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 02:48:29 AM
Quote from: James on December 17, 2010, 05:09:33 PM
There is no formula for measuring it, but it does exist.

Can you objectively define it?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 03:30:06 AM
Quote from: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 02:48:29 AM
Can you objectively define it?

No one can do so "objectively." It's not something that can be proven mathematically. But since we're talking about a judgment of value, it is not so much an objective determination as the collective weight of a culture that, for most people who care about it, has found certain composers, writers, artists, etc., worthy of higher praise than others. And when their work is examined closely - by intelligent and sympathetic analysis, or just by attentive listening and viewing - it is possible to identify some aspects of these creators' work that merit such praise. This doesn't mean that everyone will agree on all points, but it does mean that when the collective weight of informed Western culture values Shakespeare over Middleton, or Beethoven over Dittersdorf, or Renoir over Bougoureau, then there must be something of merit in their work that is more than just a matter of "popularity" or "subjectivity."
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 18, 2010, 05:06:31 AM
Did you'll listen to some of William's classical compositions?

They ain't half-bad. I mean it sort of that romantic drivel, but don't you guys enjoy that era of music?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on December 18, 2010, 05:41:01 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 03:30:06 AMBeethoven over Dittersdorf

There is probably a concensus that Beethoven > Dittersdorf but how much? If Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven form the "supreme" group of composer of classism, Dittersdors belongs to the next group and isn't much behind.

Is Dittersdorf > John Williams? Is Dittersdorf deeper? 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 05:42:39 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 03:30:06 AM
there must be something of merit in their work that is more than just a matter of "popularity" or "subjectivity."

So, it's not objective nor subjective, and it eludes definition... And yet some still talk about it so very categorically, because oh, they just know it. Reminds of a certain other recurrent topic in this forum.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on December 18, 2010, 05:54:49 AM
Quote from: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 05:42:39 AM
So, it's not objective nor subjective, and it eludes definition... And yet some still talk about it so very categorically, because oh, they just know it. Reminds of a certain other recurrent topic in this forum.

The problem with classical music and art in general is that apprehensions are given. People don't question them that much it seems. Yes, Beethoven was damn great but that doesn't mean it's right to manipulate people to believe that without criticism. Nobody tells me how things are, I figure them out myself. Beethoven has to earn my respect just like any other composer. That's why I am able to criticize Beethoven's orchestration skills while greatly admiring his String Quartets.

Subjective or Objective? That is such a problem with art. Subjectivity gives (personal) meaning to art in my understanding but I also think there is a lot of objectivity too.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 18, 2010, 06:02:13 AM
Quote from: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 05:42:39 AM
So, it's not objective nor subjective, and it eludes definition... And yet some still talk about it so very categorically, because oh, they just know it. Reminds of a certain other recurrent topic in this forum.

Its rather ironic that two of the posters who argue the most on this forum often resort to a "I just know it" response when asked about their assertions...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: MN Dave on December 18, 2010, 06:03:10 AM
"If it sounds good, it is good."
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 18, 2010, 06:17:41 AM
Quote from: James on December 17, 2010, 04:04:57 PM
Quality isn't a subjective notion. It actually exists. And moving an 'audience' is a bonus, but it's not the central pursuit, goal & focus in serious musical composition. The music is. All the artist can do is stay true, focused and be devoted to their craft (music composition), there is no formula or sure fire way on how this will affect people; serious composers don't play those guessing games - they stay focused on finding their 'own' voice & creating their 'own' music in a very deep & serious way. 

It really is just plain ol' common sense. Honest.

Well let me inform you that Stravinsky is much much deeper, on all musical fronts & purposes.
Proof is in the compositions. Just listen. Anyone with a musical brain will tell you this btw, not just me.

It's not an issue of right or wrong or 'analysis'. It's the focus, aims & goals. There are distinct differences between what serious composers do & write and what film composers do. Huge difference. One is solely focused on composing in a much more purely artistic, serious, deeper, even uncompromising way than the other across the board. This is obvious.

I ask again: please provide detailed evidence to back your assertions. You speak as if you're some enlightened final arbiter of musical value and aims, yet you say nothing about the music itself, and you don't quote composers or contemporary musical criticism to illustrate their artistic aims.

To simply say--repeatedly--that your assertions are obviously true and leave it at that is intellectually lazy.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 06:20:04 AM
Quote from: Sackbut on December 18, 2010, 06:03:10 AM
"If it sounds good, it is good."

QFT.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:46:20 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 18, 2010, 05:41:01 AM
There is probably a concensus that Beethoven > Dittersdorf but how much?

If I had to guess 99.999999%.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 18, 2010, 05:41:01 AM
Dittersdors belongs to the next group and isn't much behind.

Yes, Dittersdorf certainly reminds me of a horse's behind.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:46:40 AM
Quote from: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 06:20:04 AM
QFT.

Too simple.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 18, 2010, 06:47:09 AM
Quote from: jowcol on December 18, 2010, 06:02:13 AM
Its rather ironic that two of the posters who argue the most on this forum often resort to a "I just know it" response when asked about their assertions...

Dude, it's obvious.

But as to the topic, I think if people listened to some of Johnny's classical compositions, I think they would actually enjoy it.

But I doubt they will. It's easier to debunk something you don't know.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:51:46 AM
Quote from: Philoctetes on December 18, 2010, 06:47:09 AM
But as to the topic, I think if people listened to some of Johnny's classical compositions, I think they would actually enjoy it.

But I doubt they will. It's easier to debunk something you don't know.

I have, and wasn't enormously impressed. But I don't deny his film music serves its purpose very well.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 18, 2010, 06:53:14 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:51:46 AM
I have, and wasn't enormously impressed. But I don't deny his film music serves its purpose very well.

Well I wasn't impressed either, but I think it would definitely count as classical under the multiple definitions offered in this thread, and that at the very least it was enjoyable music to listen to.

I will also agree that his music does suit his film collaborations.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on December 18, 2010, 07:09:29 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:46:20 AM
Yes, Dittersdorf certainly reminds me of a horse's behind.

Mozart admired Dittersdorf but did he admire horse's behind? We don't know. :D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 07:15:04 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 18, 2010, 05:54:49 AM
The problem with classical music and art in general is that apprehensions are given. People don't question them that much it seems. Yes, Beethoven was damn great but that doesn't mean it's right to manipulate people to believe that without criticism. Nobody tells me how things are, I figure them out myself. Beethoven has to earn my respect just like any other composer. That's why I am able to criticize Beethoven's orchestration skills while greatly admiring his String Quartets.

You're acting (and we've seen it before) as if there is some diabolical plot afoot to brainwash people into believing which works have survived to form the standard canon. It's nonsense. Lots of music gets written, performers choose what they want to play, audiences like it or not, and if they do it gets heard again and again. A lot of people want to play and hear Beethoven, but hardly anybody wants to play Dittersdorf.

The idea that you figure all this out by yourself is equally faulty. Unless you're doing primary research in all kinds of dusty libraries throughout Europe, what you're hearing on your CDs has been pre-selected for you by virtue of the fact that a performer has first chosen to play and record it. I have read that Charles Rosen, a very influential pianist and scholar, considers Méhul's "Ariodante" a major work of the early 19th century. Problem is, it's never been recorded, seems never to be performed, and the score is inaccessible.

As for your "criticism" of Beethoven's orchestration, I have yet to see any validity to it.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on December 18, 2010, 07:32:20 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 07:15:04 AM
You're acting (and we've seen it before) as if there is some diabolical plot afoot to brainwash people into believing which works have survived to form the standard canon. It's nonsense. Lots of music gets written, performers choose what they want to play, audiences like it or not, and if they do it gets heard again and again. A lot of people want to play and hear Beethoven, but hardly anybody wants to play Dittersdorf.

The idea that you figure all this out by yourself is equally faulty. Unless you're doing primary research in all kinds of dusty libraries throughout Europe, what you're hearing on your CDs has been pre-selected for you by virtue of the fact that a performer has first chosen to play and record it. I have read that Charles Rosen, a very influential pianist and scholar, considers Méhul's "Ariodante" a major work of the early 19th century. Problem is, it's never been recorded, seems never to be performed, and the score is inaccessible.

It's not a conspiracy. It just happens. 100 years ago composers like Marc-Antoine Charpentier and Jean-Philippe Rameau where "forgotten" but now they are considered among the greatest French composers in music history. Are we wrong or the people 100 years ago? It was not conspiracy to put these composers down, it just happened. That's why we need to re-evaluate what we know and keep searching for (still) forgotten works like Méhul's "Ariodante".

Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 07:15:04 AMAs for your "criticism" of Beethoven's orchestration, I have yet to see any validity to it.
Well, I find Beethoven's orchestration too loud for the music. So the criticism is valid for me, isn't it?

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 07:38:05 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 18, 2010, 07:32:20 AM
It's not a conspiracy. It just happens. 100 years ago composers like Marc-Antoine Charpentier and Jean-Philippe Rameau were "forgotten" but now they are considered among the greatest French composers in music history. Are we wrong or the people 100 years ago? It was not conspiracy to put these composers down, it just happened. That's why we need to re-evaluate what we know and keep searching for (still) forgotten works like Méhul's "Ariodante".

No dispute here. Canons are constantly being re-evaluated, and forgotten composers are re-discovered and found to have something to say to us in our time. Sometimes composers once admired are demoted too (like Meyerbeer).

Quote from: 71 dB on December 18, 2010, 07:32:20 AM
Well, I find Beethoven's orchestration too loud for the music. So the criticism is valid for me, isn't it?

I don't even know what this means.


Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 18, 2010, 08:45:52 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:51:46 AM
I have, and wasn't enormously impressed. But I don't deny his film music serves its purpose very well.

Ditto.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 18, 2010, 09:37:38 AM
Anyway, there's an even more important film composer who has won a total of eight Oscars, more than any other living individual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Menken).
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 18, 2010, 09:59:41 AM
Now, Carl Stalling was brilliant.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 18, 2010, 11:53:11 AM
Quote from: James on December 18, 2010, 09:13:24 AM
In otherwords, 'prove it to me with objective evidence' lol

I never said I was some enlightened final arbiter of musical value either, but if you've been around long enough and love music a lot and listened-to and explored it for quite awhile you can pick up on the differences between a musician who writes solely for the art, who has developed his own musical voice and special language & logic ... and one who decides to 'take a back seat' and write largely cut & paste pastiche beneath layers and layers of dialog, visuals, plot, sound effects .. where emphasis on purely 'my music' - 'itself' is not the primary concern. No analysis necessary. I don't think any serious musician could tolerate such conditions for long or permanently. And my argument hasn't really hinged itself on 'quality' alone either .. it's more the artistic intent, seriousness of purpose & overall goal from the get go. Do I intend to write background stuff for movies all my life ? Or do I discover myself, get really serious and focus and intend to write 'my music' for largely & purely musical reasons; for better or for worse.

Indeed, some evidence to back your assertions would be helpful. Most of us here have, I gather, been listening to and playing/composing music for many years. Most of us love it and have explored it at length. To say that we all must therefore see things your way and agree with you is a cop-out.

What it comes down to is that you won't offer objective commentary or analysis for the Star Wars soundtrack, will only hypothesize about the mindset of a "serious" musician (projecting your own values onto other composers without letting them speak for themselves), and make simplistic generalizations about the form, use, and creative process of movie soundtracks.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 18, 2010, 03:21:15 PM
Quote from: James on December 18, 2010, 12:24:40 PM
It's not my way (or hypothesis), how many times do I have to say that? And again .. approaching this simple discussion with the 'prove it to me with objective evidence' is totally daft & unnecessary ... as one poster jumped in & essentially pointed out earlier. You either hear, understand or recognize the differences or you don't i guess, simply that. And the majority here who have been engaged in the topic of recent even seem to agree with the basic notion (that i didn't just invent here and now btw) that it's just not cut from the same cloth essentially ... for whatever reasons. And hopefully one day; you too, like so many others will be able to hear the distinctions ...  and understand what serious writing and musicianship really is. It doesn't take a lot of work to discern either, btw.
None of us are saying that there are no differences between Williams and, say, Stravinsky.  What some of us, including me, are saying is that there's a difference between categorizing by quality, which has some subjectivity inherent, and categorizing by type, which can be considered with strict objectivity; and that if we start categorizing by quality, we then, to be consistent, have to apply the same quality standards to all music, "classical" or otherwise, and thus might end up expecting Brahms' rigor of design in a Strauss waltz. :o (That's not to say there's little worth in Strauss waltzes; Brahms himself admired them.  But they're very different creations.)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 04:29:43 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:46:40 AM
Too simple.

Simplicity commensurate with the rigor in assertions such as (to paraphrase), there must be something of merit somewhere in there.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 04:59:50 PM
Why argue, here's what Google has to say on Beethoven vs. Dittersdorf:

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=beethoven&word2=dittersdorf

http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content=Beethoven%2CDittersdorf&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=0&smoothing=3

http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content=Beethoven%2CDittersdorf&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=8&smoothing=3
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 18, 2010, 05:12:36 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on December 18, 2010, 03:21:15 PM
None of us are saying that there are no differences between Williams and, say, Stravinsky.  What some of us, including me, are saying is that there's a difference between categorizing by quality, which has some subjectivity inherent, and categorizing by type, which can be considered with strict objectivity; and that if we start categorizing by quality, we then, to be consistent, have to apply the same quality standards to all music, "classical" or otherwise, and thus might end up expecting Brahms' rigor of design in a Strauss waltz. :o (That's not to say there's little worth in Strauss waltzes; Brahms himself admired them.  But they're very different creations.)

Well said.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 05:21:58 PM
Quote from: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 04:29:43 PM
Simplicity commensurate with the rigor in assertions such as (to paraphrase), there must be something of merit somewhere in there.

Look at the remainder of my paragraph.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 05:38:00 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 05:21:58 PM
Look at the remainder of my paragraph.

I did. It is interesting how these sorts of arguments are based on an appeal to authority or an appeal to numbers. Too simple.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:06:24 PM
Quote from: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 05:38:00 PM
I did. It is interesting how these sorts of arguments are based on an appeal to authority or an appeal to numbers. Too simple.

Then come up with something better.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 06:24:03 PM
Quote from: James on December 18, 2010, 05:46:52 PM
Seriously petrarch you still haven't voiced your own perspective on this.

I don't care much for the question in the title of the thread. The tangential arguments, however, I find interesting and worth discussing.

Quote from: James on December 18, 2010, 05:46:52 PM
Do you consider the Star Wars soundtrack as part of the 'grand tradition'?

What tradition is that? Using instruments created at least 200 years ago and played by a group of more than half a dozen people with scores in front of them?

Why is dance music up to 1900 considered "classical" but that of the 20th century isn't? Why are romantic songs from the 1300s and 1400s considered "classical" but those of the 20th century aren't? When and why were they promoted from "popular" to "classical" and to being part of the "grand tradition"?

Quote from: James on December 18, 2010, 05:46:52 PM
And in a larger context do you see the intent & goals of film composers differing at all from say oh .. the many, many modern composers you listen to and enjoy? Just curious.

Of course, but that's beside the point. To satisfy your curiosity, I don't care for John Williams, other than having to admit his music works more or less well along with the films, and there are some iconic and memorable sequences that are inseparable from the soundtrack--there aren't many other composers enjoying that privilege.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 18, 2010, 06:28:52 PM
Quote from: James on December 18, 2010, 04:28:53 PM
It's not really an issue of quality or this guy vs. that guy as I said earlier tho .. it's more an issue of the underlying artistic intent & goals which are totally different.
But the differences exist in recognized classical masters too, like my aforementioned Brahms and J. Strauss.  As Petrarch asks, shall we consider Strauss waltzes "not classical"?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 06:30:10 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:06:24 PM
Then come up with something better.

I am not the author of the assertions and claims about the 'obviousness' and 'absoluteness' of quality.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:32:53 PM
Quote from: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 05:38:00 PM
I did. It is interesting how these sorts of arguments are based on an appeal to authority or an appeal to numbers. Too simple.

Do you think an appeal to authority has no relevance? If a freshman student walks into class having skimmed through the Cliffs' Notes for Hamlet and decided it's all a bunch of crap (words are too hard, doesn't care about princes, ghosts, kings, or even looney girlfriends, maybe the fencing scene would be cool if he could keep awake for the three hours beforehand), is said freshman's opinion to be taken as seriously as that of a scholar who has given 20 years of his life to probing the play's mysteries?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 18, 2010, 06:34:30 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:32:53 PM
Do you think an appeal to authority has no relevance? If a freshman student walks into class having skimmed through the Cliffs' Notes for Hamlet and decided it's all a bunch of crap (words are too hard, doesn't care about princes, ghosts, kings, or even looney girlfriends, maybe the fencing scene would be cool if he could keep awake for the three hours beforehand), is said freshman's opinion to be taken as seriously as that of a scholar who has given 20 years of his life to probing the play's mysteries?
Of course not.  But when the authorities themselves differ, as they do here--it's not often I find myself on the opposite side of a debate with Karl Henning!--then you have a situation. :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:35:57 PM
Quote from: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 06:30:10 PM
I am not the author of the assertions and claims about the 'obviousness' and 'absoluteness' of quality.

Neither am I. But you're not rising to my challenge.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:40:53 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on December 18, 2010, 06:34:30 PM
Of course not.  But when the authorities themselves differ, as they do here--it's not often I find myself on the opposite side of a debate with Karl Henning!--then you have a situation. :)

Granted. People who care about and have studied this music often disagree. But more to the point, they often agree as well. "It's not often I find myself on the opposite side. . .  ." How do you account for this, unless there are qualities within the music that the culture on the whole admires?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 06:43:08 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:32:53 PM
Do you think an appeal to authority has no relevance? If a freshman student walks into class having skimmed through the Cliffs' Notes for Hamlet and decided it's all a bunch of crap (words are too hard, doesn't care about princes, ghosts, kings, or even looney girlfriends, maybe the fencing scene would be cool if he could keep awake for the three hours beforehand), is said freshman's opinion to be taken as seriously as that of a scholar who has given 20 years of his life to probing the play's mysteries?

So the freshman doesn't like Hamlet. It's his prerogative. The interesting question is then why is he in such a class.

Why are you listening to classical music? The countless millions of people that listen to pop unequivocally show that classical is worthless.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 06:46:52 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:35:57 PM
Neither am I. But you're not rising to my challenge.

Why should I? My whole point is that it is a pointless exercise. I subscribe to the notion that judgments of quality are inherently conventional and wholly subjective.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 18, 2010, 06:54:11 PM
Quote from: James on December 18, 2010, 06:47:21 PM
"from Bach to Stockhausen"

::)  With John Williams somewhere in between?


Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:57:09 PM
Quote from: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 06:43:08 PM
So the freshman doesn't like Hamlet. It's his prerogative. The interesting question is then why is he in such a class.

I can only take up one point at a time. I have no idea why the freshman is in the class. Maybe it's a core requirement, or he needed a humanities elective and the prof had a reputation for being easy. Maybe there's a chick in the class he's got the hots for, so he thought he'd get in her pants more easily if he signed up for the same English section. Maybe it's the only section he could fit into his schedule.

Of course it's his prerogative to like or not like. Like, don't like, listen, don't listen - I don't give a crap what you do, so long as I can do what I want to do. If Jeremy the Freshman doesn't like Hamlet, that's fine with me so long as he doesn't assume his totally superficial acquaintance with the play gives him the same wisdom as the prof who's studied it for a lifetime. If that means I respect the opinions of true authority more than I respect Jeremy's, so be it.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 07:03:08 PM
Quote from: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 06:46:52 PM
Why should I?

No reason. You're obviously under no obligation.

Quote from: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 06:46:52 PM
inherently conventional and wholly subjective.

The first part at least sounds fairly close to what I've been saying.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 07:04:33 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 18, 2010, 06:54:11 PM

::)  With John Williams somewhere in between?

But apparently excluding overrated Mozart and bombastic Beethoven.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 07:12:42 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 07:04:33 PM
But apparently excluding overrated Mozart and bombastic Beethoven.

Ha, touché! ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 19, 2010, 04:05:20 AM
Quote from: James on December 18, 2010, 04:28:53 PM
It's not really an issue of quality or this guy vs. that guy as I said earlier tho .. it's more an issue of the underlying artistic intent & goals which are totally different.

I think this is quite true, and sheds a lot of light into this discussion.  I apologize if my earlier statements seems like I was knocking Stravinsky's first three ballets, which are, IMO,  canonical 20th century documents.  The point I'd hoped to reach through the Socratic method was that, with right intent, collaborations and applications of composing to film and ballet can create valid art.   But I would agree someone who is scoring films just to deliver what is expected, without either trying to push the envelope OR make a personal statement is more of a technician than an artist.


Although, I'd still wonder how are we to say what Stravinksy's goals and intent were without actually researching what he said?  I'd raised the point earlier that Stravinsky was quoted (at at least one point of his life) of viewing composing as a problem solving process.   I remember another quote where he said one should not become a composer for the sake of being a composer, but instead needed very specific goals.  I don't think "making Deep Art" would be specific enough for him-- although we also need to assume that Stravinsky did have some concern of his image as a composer, so he may not have been honest with himself.

I would say that making blatant assumptions about a composer's goals and intent without any scholarship is risky. I could make any absurd statement about a composer's goals, but it wouldn't mean anything, and could cause said composer to roll over in his grave.   If I am going to cite a composers intent for something, and try to use this to change someone's mind, I'd better be prepared to provide some documentation.


Finally, since we never got to find out, it may well have been the case that neither Stravinsky nor Schoenberg may have been very good at scoring movies, despite the interest they had demonstrated.  Both would have needed to shed more control doing movies  than Ballet. 

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 19, 2010, 04:24:22 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:57:09 PM
I can only take up one point at a time. I have no idea why the freshman is in the class. Maybe it's a core requirement, or he needed a humanities elective and the prof had a reputation for being easy. Maybe there's a chick in the class he's got the hots for, so he thought he'd get in her pants more easily if he signed up for the same English section. Maybe it's the only section he could fit into his schedule.

Of course it's his prerogative to like or not like. Like, don't like, listen, don't listen - I don't give a crap what you do, so long as I can do what I want to do. If Jeremy the Freshman doesn't like Hamlet, that's fine with me so long as he doesn't assume his totally superficial acquaintance with the play gives him the same wisdom as the prof who's studied it for a lifetime. If that means I respect the opinions of true authority more than I respect Jeremy's, so be it.


My experience  with Literature Depts is that many of the "Experts" tend to hate some of the classics.  (I remember having someone call one sacred cow "Sugar Coated Crap".)  I personally believe that Hamlet's narrative structure is a lot weaker than Lear's (way too much happens off stage) but the language is great.  So even knowledgeable people don't have to appreciate stuff that is widely hailed as great.  (Including Mozart, who doesn't do much for me-- although I'll not lay claim to being knowledgeable.).

Also, Literature departments tend to read a lot of unintended depth into Shakespeare.  Getting back to James's point on the intent of the artist--  One of the major reasons Shakespeare was writing was to get butts in seats, and some of his decisions may have been made with physical constraints in mind.  (For example, in Lear, the same actor may have played Cordelia and the fool, or the infamous "Exit, pursued by bear" in the WInter's Tale)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on December 19, 2010, 05:28:15 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 07:38:05 AM
No dispute here. Canons are constantly being re-evaluated, and forgotten composers are re-discovered and found to have something to say to us in our time. Sometimes composers once admired are demoted too (like Meyerbeer).
Yes, thanks to free-thinkers.

Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 07:38:05 AMI don't even know what this means.
To put it simply: Beethoven's music is very romantic in nature but his orchestration follows the traditions of classism so that it doesn't suite that well for the music. Beethoven needed "Berliozque" ideas of orchestration but he didn't have them. That's why I call Berlioz better orchestrator than Beethoven.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on December 19, 2010, 05:33:08 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 19, 2010, 05:28:15 AM
Yes, thanks to free-thinkers.
To put it simply: Beethoven's music is very romantic in nature but his orchestration follows the traditions of classism so that it doesn't suite that well for the music. Beethoven needed "Berliozque" ideas of orchestration but he didn't have them. That's why I call Berlioz better orchestrator than Beethoven.

I have no idea what orchestration means....but this does not sound right to me. ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 19, 2010, 05:54:34 AM
Quote from: jowcol on December 19, 2010, 04:05:20 AM
I would say that making blatant assumptions about a composer's goals and intent without any scholarship is risky. I could make any absurd statement about a composer's goals, but it wouldn't mean anything, and could cause said composer to roll over in his grave.   If I am going to cite a composers intent for something, and try to use this to change someone's mind, I'd better be prepared to provide some documentation.

Exactly. It's easy to attribute some pristine ars gratia artis motive to one composer and then say or imply another composer is some kind of subservient hack who can't or won't write "deep" music because of the genre they write in, but some evidence is clearly in order.

Certainly, when looking at the Classical tradition, there's a long and very extensive history of writing incidental and occasional music for theater and film, religious services, state festivities, and so on. Similarly, there's a long and extensive tradition of writing music to order, for money, and to meet the needs of the patron or client.

If someone is going to damn one composer for such "failings," you may as well damn them all. Or, if the fault lies in the music itself, provide evidence to illustrate the deficiencies.

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 19, 2010, 06:45:14 AM
The phrase "free-thinkers" is always good for a chuckle.

Sometimes an honest guffaw, even.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 19, 2010, 09:46:28 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 06:40:53 PM
..."It's not often I find myself on the opposite side. . .  ." How do you account for this, unless there are qualities within the music that the culture on the whole admires?
I doubt that's it: neither Karl nor I care that much about "culture on the whole."  It's a matter of how we classify what we do care about--or how we DON'T classify...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 19, 2010, 09:48:11 AM
Quote from: James on December 18, 2010, 06:47:21 PM
... And the differences in intent & goals is a major point & part in this of course... & one of the big reasons why most of us seem not to really care (or view) Williams and his soundtracks in the same way as we do other 'more serious' stuff.
So what's your opinion of the "Blue Danube" waltz?  Is it "more serious"?  Does it have a valid place in "the western classical legacy"?  If so, why doesn't the Star Wars soundtrack? ???
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 19, 2010, 09:49:51 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 19, 2010, 06:45:14 AM
The phrase "free-thinkers" is always good for a chuckle.

Sometimes an honest guffaw, even.

Indeed.  If it weren't for some of those "free-thinkers," we'd still be in the Dark Ages! :D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Florestan on December 19, 2010, 09:55:21 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 19, 2010, 05:28:15 AM
Beethoven's music is very romantic in nature
How do you know it?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 19, 2010, 10:42:10 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on December 19, 2010, 09:49:51 AM
Indeed.  If it weren't for some of those "free-thinkers," we'd still be in the Dark Ages! :D

I depends very much what, precisely, "free-thinking" is free of.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 19, 2010, 11:13:32 AM
Quote from: James on December 19, 2010, 10:39:18 AM
The "waltz king" ? Well ... he certainly had his own little voice, niche & speciality .. elevating & enriching it in his own special way, written niche music made for it's own purpose and utility  .. and he was crafty at it in his 'own way', little popular tuneful 19th century nuggets that Brahms & R.Strauss enjoyed, and that Schoenberg was fond of & gave to his pupils Berg & Webern as transcription exercises. The Blue Danude is probably in the same league as Beethoven's symphonies as far as the sheer amount of recordings is concerned.
But is it "classical music" or not?  That is indeed the question.  If we include it in "the canon," then how can we exclude the Star Wars score, since both were written "to order," that is, to please the public or certain portions thereof?  (A formal waltz has a structure that's nearly as fixed as films usually are before the composer begins his work.)  If we don't, then what's the basis for excluding it apart from our own likes and dislikes, or questions of "structure" and "quality" which may not have any objective answers?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 19, 2010, 12:04:40 PM
Quote from: James on December 19, 2010, 11:48:53 AM
It's still not the same thing tho. I just described & answered reasons why "the waltz king" is included and the same can easily apply to other standalone written musical compositions of history that's "to order" but has survived & been preserved because of it's musical value & special qualities.
No, you very cleverly did NOT answer my actual question!
Quote from: James on December 19, 2010, 11:48:53 AM
The Star Wars or any film soundtrack is just that ... background music designed & presented to be glued & buried within a Hollywood movie's visual & audio mix etc. It's not ceremonial, concert music or pedagogical.
Neither is The Blue Danube, not by any stretch of definitions.  It was written for waltzing, not for concerts.

For the third time: Is the Blue Danube waltz "classical music" or is it not?  Yes or No?  And if it is, then why is the Star Wars music not?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 19, 2010, 12:58:23 PM
Quote from: James on December 19, 2010, 12:27:44 PM
I answered your questions and even gave some reasons why, whats wrong with you? Gathering to dance ... is ritual/ceremonial and the music is carefully composed in a personal manor, pure, orchestrated, melodic and self contained as music to be heard & it's waltz rhythms danced to. It's even served as concert music, and pedagogical purpose.
emphasis added

Good grief!  Jo, I hope you're sufficiently acquainted with this fellow to make the same allowances for him that we make for Sean, Josquin, Saul, & dB71.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 19, 2010, 01:06:41 PM
Quote from: James on December 19, 2010, 12:27:44 PM
I answered your questions and even gave some reasons why, whats wrong with you? Gathering to dance ... is ritual/ceremonial and the music is carefully composed in a personal manor, pure, orchestrated, melodic and self contained as music to be heard & it's waltz rhythms danced to. It's even served as concert music, and pedagogical purpose.
Look again at your posts.  Not once have you answered my question "Is it classical music" with a simple Yes-or-No answer.  But now it becomes obvious that your answer is indeed Yes.

Now, if gathering for a dance is indeed "ceremonial"--and many would question that, or insist on bringing raves or disco into the discussion--what do you call gathering to watch a movie?  Is it not a ceremony just as much, or as little, as gathering to dance?  And how is Star Wars any less "carefully composed in a personal manor, pure, orchestrated, melodic and self contained" than the 400+ Strauss waltzes?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 19, 2010, 01:11:57 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 19, 2010, 12:58:23 PM
emphasis added

Good grief!  Jo, I hope you're sufficiently acquainted with this fellow to make the same allowances for him that we make for Sean, Josquin, Saul, & dB71.
Oh, I don't care what he says about me personally--not if he can't do any better than he has done in picking up the gauntlet I threw in front of him. :)

One more comment: How do we know that future generations won't include the Star Wars scores as pedagogical examples?  I doubt anyone could have predicted The Blue Danube's continuing popularity, nor the respect "authorities" continue to give it.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on December 19, 2010, 01:49:03 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on December 19, 2010, 01:11:57 PM

One more comment: How do we know that future generations won't include the Star Wars scores as pedagogical examples?  I doubt anyone could have predicted The Blue Danube's continuing popularity, nor the respect "authorities" continue to give it.

Cool point!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 19, 2010, 02:21:03 PM
Quote from: James on December 19, 2010, 02:01:23 PM
I have answered your question AND explained why 'it is' included within classical music, and why films and the music stuffed in them generally aren't. More than once. Go back and read between the lines.
Exhibit A:
Quote from: James on December 19, 2010, 10:39:18 AM
The "waltz king" ? Well ... he certainly had his own little voice, niche & speciality .. elevating & enriching it in his own special way, written niche music made for it's own purpose and utility  .. and he was crafty at it in his 'own way', little popular tuneful 19th century nuggets that Brahms & R.Strauss enjoyed, and that Schoenberg was fond of & gave to his pupils Berg & Webern as transcription exercises. The Blue Danude is probably in the same league as Beethoven's symphonies as far as the sheer amount of recordings is concerned.
Not once in that post did you say in so many words whether or not The Blue Danube Waltz was "classical music."  You cleverly implied it--but you did not say it.  Was that because you feared what I would say in response?
Quote from: James on December 19, 2010, 02:01:23 PM
Standalone ceremonial music of historical & musical value.
My point has been that this description really does not describe much of what we now commonly accept as "classical music."
Quote from: James on December 19, 2010, 02:01:23 PMAnyway,  i already explained all of these things and i'm not going over it over again .. go back and read earlier posts until it sinks in and makes sense.
I think I'd rather listen to a little John Williams. ;D Or Stravinsky.  Or maybe even get ready for my gig tonight, which will include neither Williams nor Stravinsky nor any "Standalone ceremonial music of historical & musical value" but may well include the ceremonial activity of audience dancing. :)

Believe it or not, I do understand everything you wrote.  I just don't agree with your classification system of "classical music."  But maybe that's because, as I admitted in an earlier post on this thread, that I am less and less inclined to classify the music I love with any name at all.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 19, 2010, 02:49:34 PM
The problem is the familiar one.  James is one of those who fails to distinguish his personal reactions to things from objective reality and can't accept that a reaction different from his could also be valid. 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 19, 2010, 02:52:43 PM
Quote from: Bogey on December 19, 2010, 01:49:03 PM

Quote from: jochanaanOne more comment: How do we know that future generations won't include the Star Wars scores as pedagogical examples?  I doubt anyone could have predicted The Blue Danube's continuing popularity, nor the respect "authorities" continue to give it.

Cool point!


Well, his music is already in pedagogical use: for film scoring, which is one course of study at the Berklee College of Music here in Boston.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 19, 2010, 07:16:47 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 19, 2010, 02:52:43 PM
Well, his music is already in pedagogical use: for film scoring, which is one course of study at the Berklee College of Music here in Boston.

As well it should be. Williams definitely understands the importance of music in the film projects he undertakes, but he's also not a half-bad classical composer, as the clips I posted show.

But I also classify some video game music as classical, I posted some examples earlier.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 19, 2010, 07:59:12 PM
Quote from: James on December 19, 2010, 07:55:44 PM
I doubt, but wonder if Williams trite & corny pastiche of older music and composers would even stretch beyond the pop culture fascination they are now ... IF they weren't ever apart of those famous big budget Hollywood blockbusters - and were simply premiered on their own as pieces of concert music (of course not!).. but riding off of the notoriety and fame of those popular culture associations he's tried his hand are something with perhaps more seriousness of intent... those concerti seem to tell the real potential of his artistry?

Well his classical compositions 'proper' I'd say are on the level of middling accepted classical composers. He's definitely not at the bottom of the barrel, and he's no where near the top, but he's definitely passable, and deserving of an entertainment.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 19, 2010, 08:05:27 PM
Quote from: James on December 19, 2010, 08:02:48 PM
Yea .. entertainment nothing really more.

Well... yes, but that's how I view all music. I'm not really looking deeper, but I think his compositions sort of show where he could have gone, but he simply decided to go in another direction, and not a worse one. I don't think. He really does know how to write good film music, and even though it is 'clipped' I think it still does count as classical, and that he's written fair music, classical 'proper', as well. I think that simply solidifies his position as a classical composer. I think one could do far worse.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 19, 2010, 08:23:46 PM
Quote from: James on December 19, 2010, 08:20:57 PM
To me, it's all popular culture stuff, all film music is ..  so ephemera in otherwords and as music itself (viewed outside of it's film associations), mostly pastiche & nothing with much 'legs'.

(i haven't heard his standalone 'concerti', i wonder how they stand up to what i've heard in that mode)

Well some of his 'pop' music, I think has a chance to have real legs, simply because of the moments that they are attached to, but only time will tell with that.

Well it depends on who you are going to compare it too. If you listen to it on its own; it really is enjoyable, fun music, ably composed, but if you decide to compare it to the 'masters, well then....
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 19, 2010, 09:35:17 PM
Quote from: James on December 19, 2010, 04:03:47 PM
Well .. I was figuring why even ask when he is included within the classical pantheon, and I tried to provide as best I could, some clear reasons why he was. He was a standard setting speciality writer ... the musical waltz (& other dance forms), the music being the central focus ..and the best of those that he wrote, great orchestration and melody, texture, wildly inventive and memorable within that little musical sphere he operated in and focused on. Writtin pieces that can be listened to &/or danced to, or both. Throughout the tradition we have sprinklings of these types of composers that narrow-in on and really shine in highly specialized musical pockets in 'their own way'. It's purely musical.
So it can stand as concert music.  So can suites taken from many film scores.  And whether the Star Wars music, or a suite from it, can do so is more a matter of taste than anything else.  Whether it's deep, or original, or forward-looking--and I admit it's not any of those things particularly--is beside the point.  My point is that these questions need to be asked--and answered, if we are to know what we're talking about.
Quote from: James on December 19, 2010, 04:03:47 PM
Written music for ceremonial (or ritual) purposes is a apart of the historical legacy tho, it's certainly not 'all' of it ...
Indeed it isn't. :)
Quote from: James on December 19, 2010, 04:03:47 PM
But it's not my classification tho ..
Then whose is it?  It's certainly not mine. ???
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Florestan on December 20, 2010, 12:26:36 AM
Quote from: James on December 19, 2010, 08:02:48 PM
Yea .. entertainment nothing really more.
Vivaldi composed for the entertainment of the Venetian aristocracy. Haydn wrote for the entertainment of a prince. Schubert composed for the entertainment of his family and friends. Tchaikovsky's ballets were created for the entertainment of the Russian upper classes. Accordingly, we should exclude their music from the Grand Tradition --- or maybe we shouldn't?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 20, 2010, 02:44:27 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 20, 2010, 12:26:36 AM
Vivaldi composed for the entertainment of the Venetian aristocracy. Haydn wrote for the entertainment of a prince. Schubert composed for the entertainment of his family and friends. Tchaikovsky's ballets were created for the entertainment of the Russian upper classes. Accordingly, we should exclude their music from the Grand Tradition --- or maybe we shouldn't?

Oops!  You are actually providing concrete examples and not vague generalities..
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 20, 2010, 03:32:23 AM
Yes, I don't think entertainment (which can be every bit as slippery to define as classical music) will serve at all as any presumed touchstone.  Entertainment of itself is hardly The Great Satan of culture . . . .
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Florestan on December 20, 2010, 03:34:25 AM
Quote from: jowcol on December 20, 2010, 02:44:27 AM
Oops!  You are actually providing concrete examples and not vague generalities..
It's a bad habit I acquired during my engineering studies.   :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 20, 2010, 03:50:10 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on December 19, 2010, 09:35:17 PM
So it can stand as concert music.  So can suites taken from many film scores.  And whether the Star Wars music, or a suite from it, can do so is more a matter of taste than anything else.

Well, for me one of the core considerations is a question which we can never answer in our lifetime.

Ask the audiences who go to the Boston Pops, &c., who hear and enjoy the Star Wars suite if it stands as concert music, and of course they will say it does.  But are they (or we) competent to answer the question?


I mean, we who have seen the movies, and whose reception of the music is an indelible matter of the experience of the movies which were the occasion of the music's publication — we cannot really say.  The reason the Star Wars music is programmed, is because those arranging the program are counting on the cinematic tie-in to fetch in the audience.  The cynical response must be, that there is no instance of the music being programmed, simply because it's good music.  If it is ; )

So, does the Star Wars music "stand as concert music"?  That question must be answered by a generation which doesn't rely on memories of that wonderful splash of stars on the huge screen and the then-new Dolby sound systems, meseems.  For none of us here (or nearly none of us) actually dances in Viennese cafés to the sound of a small house orchestra, yet we all attest that the waltzes of Joh. Strauss Jr are great stuff.  The first several times I heard Tchaikovsky's Romeo & Juliet Fantasy-Overture, I had never seen the Shakespeare play, and had only a childishly crude notion of the story of the play which was the inspiration for the music (no one at that age understands or cares about the character and role of Friar Lawrence, but that does not interfere with our enjoyment of the wind chorale which opens the piece).  &c., &c., &c.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 20, 2010, 04:17:48 AM
On those lines, obviously I had listened to Shostakovich's music for the Kozintsev Hamlet many times before I actually saw the film.

It's impossible for any of us, I imagine, to approach the Star Wars music like that: as music on its own, before (or even, completely without) any experience of it as part of a film.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 20, 2010, 04:21:30 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 20, 2010, 03:32:23 AM
Yes, I don't think entertainment (which can be every bit as slippery to define as classical music) will serve at all as any presumed touchstone.  Entertainment of itself is hardly The Great Satan of culture . . . .

Well that's not how I really meant the term, but whatever. I think James understood what I meant.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 20, 2010, 05:26:47 AM
Quote from: James on December 19, 2010, 04:03:47 PM
that he wrote, great orchestration and melody, texture, wildly inventive and memorable within that little musical sphere he operated in and focused on.

Funny, but I'd ascribe some of those same qualities to Williams. For instance, I haven't heard the full Star Wars score in a long time, yet I can very easily whistle many of the main themes, with enjoyment. The fact that his writing has stuck in my head that long and still provides entertainment tells me that he's certainly succeeded on some level as a composer. (And I like it as music, not because it reminds me of Stormtroopers and talking robots.)

To address some of your other assertions:

* You speak of pedagogical uses. Film scoring is taught at college. I would be shocked if some of Williams's scores weren't studied, given his place in the pantheon.

* You keep speaking of film music being buried in a mix of dialogue and images, as if it functioned exclusively as muted background noise. If you've seriously watched or studied film, you'd know that music can be foregrounded and play a major role in shaping the identity of the movie and the audience's emotional reactions. Think of Poledouris's score for the Conan the Barbarian, to name a classic example, or the music of 2001, for another. Famously, Star Wars opens with blackness to the music thundering forth. Much of the music in the film works in tandem with the imagery and isn't somehow hidden beneath dense layers of dialogue and foley effects.

* You deride music supposedly intended for passing entertainment value: uh oh, we'd better throw Handel's Water Music overboard, given that it was written to entertain nobles on a pleasure cruise. Farewell to Bach's "frivolous" Coffee Cantata (this performance underwritten with the generous support of Starbucks). Mozart wrote divertimenti? Good Heavens, we'll have no diversions while I'm around! Only serious, deep music is allowed in the hallowed halls of (fanfare, please--but not a cheesy John Williams-style fanfare) Classical Music.

* You speak of film and its music as pop culture ephemera. Film is practiced and studied as a serious art form at the highest academic levels. In the US, there's a television channel, Turner Classic Movies, devoted entirely to presenting classic, historic films going back to the silent era. Remember, too, that's there is much ephemera in the world of "officially sanctioned" classical music: one need only look at the Baroque and Classical eras, with their flood of music for entertainment, performed once or a few times and left behind, perhaps to moulder as a manuscript in a small European library, only to be resurrected by CPO a few centuries later.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 20, 2010, 05:28:07 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on December 20, 2010, 05:26:47 AM
Funny, but I'd ascribe some of those same qualities to Williams.

Not great orchestration.  Nope.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 20, 2010, 05:35:02 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 20, 2010, 05:28:07 AM
Not great orchestration.  Nope.

I'd have to borrow a copy from someone and listen again to comment there. But melodious and memorable to my ears, certainly. Yet, that's of course subjective and is ultimately neither here nor there when it comes to classifying the music.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 20, 2010, 05:42:44 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on December 20, 2010, 05:35:02 AM
I'd have to borrow a copy from someone and listen again to comment there. But melodious and memorable to my ears, certainly. Yet, that's of course subjective and is ultimately neither here nor there when it comes to classifying the music.

Well, the orchestration which he cribbed from Stravinsky, Holst, & al. (e.g.) is excellent, of course.  No argument there.  And back when I first heard his music (something like 1978), I should have given him great credit for orchestration (which I should have done in ignorance).

Again, the trouble is these "concert" pieces of his, for whose orchestration he is solely responsible.  Competent at best, and . . . poor in more spot than one.


You're certainly right that he has had a good talent for memorable tunes!  Not all of them, of course;  but the few really great ones, no one can take away from him.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 20, 2010, 07:33:11 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 20, 2010, 03:50:10 AM
Well, for me one of the core considerations is a question which we can never answer in our lifetime...
That was exactly one of my points to James.  As for the rest of your excellent post, thanks again for your always carefully-considered thoughts.  I feel that whether we consider such things as the Star Wars scores to be "classical music" touches on the very definitions we use.

And, having actually played Star Wars suites on several occasions, perhaps I have a greater respect for Mr. Williams' orchestral abilities than some.  At least he knows the ranges and capabilities of all the instruments, and isn't afraid to give them a few challenges.  You can't say that about every film composer whose music is programmed at concerts. :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on December 20, 2010, 08:37:33 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 19, 2010, 09:55:21 AM
How do you know it?

You ask me this as if the knowledge was beyond us (or me).

The music is structurally modern and the scale of it indicates romantism, the inevitable* development of classical music after classism. The only thing that isn't that romantic is the orchestration.
_________________________________________________
* classism was about lighter, less complex music to entertain all kind of people in high social status, the birth of "commercial music" partially outside patrons if you will. Since the return to complex baroque was out of the question in the new world, the logical step to restore some sort of depth to music was romantism. Also, the development of piano as an instrument during the 18th century encouraged composers to explore dynamic variation in music stronger than before.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Florestan on December 20, 2010, 08:54:08 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 20, 2010, 08:37:33 AM
The music is structurally modern and the scale of it indicates romantism
How do you know the structure of the music and its scale?

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 20, 2010, 08:57:29 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 20, 2010, 08:37:33 AM
You ask me this as if the knowledge was beyond us (or me).

The music is structurally modern and the scale of it indicates romantism, the inevitable* development of classical music after classism. The only thing that isn't that romantic is the orchestration.

This is simply not true. While there are some romantic elements in Beethoven music, the basis of his structures and use of tonality remains firmly grounded in classicism (not classism, a different thing entirely). Moreover, to say that classicism "was about lighter, less complex music to entertain all kind of people in high social status" has no validity either. There's nothing lighter or lacking in complexity about Mozart's mature operas, concertos, or quintets. And expecting Beethoven's orchestra, which is generally handled superbly (except for a few moments that don't balance well, like the recap in the 1st movement of the 8th symphony), to sound like Berlioz's is to expect Beethoven to have an entirely different musical personality.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on December 20, 2010, 10:28:52 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 20, 2010, 08:54:08 AM
How do you know the structure of the music and its scale?

I have heard it.  :D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on December 20, 2010, 10:44:29 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 20, 2010, 08:57:29 AMThere's nothing lighter or lacking in complexity about Mozart's mature operas, concertos, or quintets.

Bach, Fasch, Mozart. The line of simpler structures. Mozart was able to compose very complex music but he rarely did that because his audience wanted something lighter, the operas being good examples of that. His church and chamber music show greater complexity.

Quote from: Sforzando on December 20, 2010, 08:57:29 AMAnd expecting Beethoven's orchestra, which is generally handled superbly (except for a few moments that don't balance well, like the recap in the 1st movement of the 8th symphony), to sound like Berlioz's is to expect Beethoven to have an entirely different musical personality.

The Sixth Symphony and Missa Solemnis are well-orchestrated works. I especially admire Beethoven's way of using piccolo flute. In other orchestral works Beethoven needed badly ways to soften the sound because the music material is so raging and angular.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 20, 2010, 10:52:28 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 20, 2010, 10:44:29 AMIn other orchestral works Beethoven needed badly ways to soften the sound because the music material is so raging and angular.

You dismiss the possibility that Beethoven wanted it that way? 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: MN Dave on December 20, 2010, 11:03:15 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 20, 2010, 10:52:28 AM
You dismiss the possibility that Beethoven wanted it that way?

My very thought.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 20, 2010, 11:09:26 AM
This just keeps getting richer and richer.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: MN Dave on December 20, 2010, 11:11:00 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 20, 2010, 11:09:26 AM
This just keeps getting richer and richer.

Deeper and deeper.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 20, 2010, 11:21:41 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 20, 2010, 10:44:29 AM
The Sixth Symphony and Missa Solemnis are well-orchestrated works. I especially admire Beethoven's way of using piccolo flute.

Too bad the Missa doesn't use a piccolo flute, and the Sixth uses it in only one of the five movements.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 20, 2010, 11:24:16 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 20, 2010, 11:21:41 AM
Too bad the Missa doesn't use a piccolo flute, and the Sixth uses it in only one of the five movements.

If he had eliminated the piccolo flute from that one movement, that would truly excellent use of piccolo flute!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 20, 2010, 11:33:06 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on December 20, 2010, 11:11:00 AM
Deeper and deeper.

QFT.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: MN Dave on December 20, 2010, 11:33:52 AM
Commenting on Beethoven's skills are like complaining that grass is green.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 20, 2010, 11:37:56 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on December 20, 2010, 11:33:52 AM
Commenting on Beethoven's skills are like complaining that grass is green.

But there you go: when you're a "free-thinker" and fancy that, really, Dittersdorf is just as good as Beethoven, and that to think otherwise is to have permitted yourself to be brainwashed by The Great Beethoven Conspiracy . . . complaining that the grass is green is the only game you've got.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 20, 2010, 12:28:39 PM
QuoteCommenting on Beethoven's skills are like complaining that grass is green.

Never heard of Kentucky bluegrass?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: MN Dave on December 20, 2010, 12:31:07 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 20, 2010, 12:28:39 PM
Never heard of Kentucky bluegrass?

Indeed I have. Bill Monroe bit into a bagel and stated, "This is the worst doughnut I ever did taste!"
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 20, 2010, 05:14:09 PM
Maybe Beethoven should have orchestrated the Star Wars music.  With Bill Monroe on banjo! ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 20, 2010, 07:02:22 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on December 20, 2010, 05:14:09 PM
Maybe Beethoven should have orchestrated the Star Wars music.  With Bill Monroe on banjo! ;D

Don't forget the piccolo.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 20, 2010, 10:00:13 PM
Quote from: James on December 20, 2010, 08:10:34 PM
Yea so .. it's not studied by serious musicians I can assure you that !


THis looks like a take-it-on-faith assertion.  Or is there are certification process to ensure that anyone who takes (or teaches) film scoring is not "serious"?  Does someone make sure that these people don't have whoopie cushions or rubber chickens in their possession?  Doesn't like the Naked Gun movies?

Or are you taking upon yourself to define who is "serious" and who is not?   Or have the power to read all the minds of people who attend schools like Berklee?





Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Florestan on December 21, 2010, 12:40:31 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 20, 2010, 10:28:52 AM
I have heard it.  :D
Ah, very well, this is where I wanted to get you!  ;D

So, you have heard it, that is you have heard Beethoven's orchestration and it left you with the indelible impresion that the music, its structure and scale, is "very romantic". But this very fact gives a big lie to your assertion: far from being flawed, his orchestration is in fact very effective in conveying strong romantic feelings, you being living proof for that.

Any more shots in your own foot that you'd like to share with us?  :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 21, 2010, 05:21:04 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 21, 2010, 12:40:31 AM
Ah, very well, this is where I wanted to get you!  ;D

So, you have heard it, that is you have heard Beethoven's orchestration and it left you with the indelible impresion that the music, its structure and scale, is "very romantic". But this very fact gives a big lie to your assertion: far from being flawed, his orchestration is in fact very effective in conveying strong romantic feelings, you being living proof for that.

Any more shots in your own foot that you'd like to share with us?  :)

This might be the lamest and weakest zinger ever.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 21, 2010, 05:33:55 AM
Quote from: James on December 20, 2010, 11:11:12 PM
this comin' from the guy who said this earlier ..

True, and I still stand by it. 

Please note--

I was careful in that statement to say that IF a person meets certain set of criteria, THEN I would consider them as technicians and not artist. 

Note:

The  "IF" portion outlined the inclusion criteria-- I didn't make a bald statement about a large group of people which different goals and intents.


The  THEN portion still reflected my own opinion -- I said "I would agree" which means it's just my silly-assed opinion.  I did not try to express it as any objective fact.   I try not to confuse my opinion with with facts, and as you can see in the quote you thoughtfully provided, I was careful to make the distinction.


And I did NOT say that  everyone who teaches or studies film scoring is not a serious artist. To do so would be making a broad, unprovable statement that all of these people share the  same intent.   Such an assertion would be pretty baseless, would it not?  How would I know what all these people I've never met are intending?  Have I interviewed them?   Any broad generalization I would make about them would be pretty meaningless, would it not?  And would not really make much of a logical foundation if I'm trying to convince anyone who believes otherwise.

I'd be interested to see if you will answer that latter half of my post-- but I wasn't expecting that to happen.





Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 21, 2010, 05:55:40 AM
Quote from: James on December 20, 2010, 08:10:34 PM
Yea so .. it's not studied by serious musicians I can assure you that ! They'd be better off studying the stuff he rips off and steering themselves clear of the subservient film path !

Film composers aren't serious musicians? Shostakovich, Vaughan Williams, Copland, and Korngold--to name but a few--weren't serious musicians? Why are advanced degrees in film music offered? Why is it taught as part of standard composition curricula? Why is the function and history of film music taught in liberal arts programs? You clearly aren't serious about film and film music, but others are.

Quote
It's commercial wallpaper to images etc. on the screen. Picture music, a couple hairs shy (& maybe with a bigger budget) of what you see on tv, or commericals, or cartoons, or video games or even MTV. If it were premiered on it's own as the latest 20th Century classical composition (pff chuckle) with no ties or relations whatsoever to it's big commerical hollywood blockbuster film & culture it would be laughed at as merely derivative pastiche & cornball fluff. And forgotten fast.

Well, Tchaikovsky was mocked as cornball fluff in his day, but his music has done all right. When you keep referring to film music as "wallpaper to images" it merely exposes your personal bias and lack of study of film. It's like insisting that basketball is a game where two teams sit on benches and sometimes a few of the players throw a ball around.

Quote
We've went over this already...but you obviously didn't read or even think about what was said earlier .. Williams's music on it's own ain't no Handel, Bach, Mozart, Brahms, Wagner, Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius, Bernstein OR not even little ol' J.Strauss  ... and they obviously haven't been thrown overboard have they? I wonder why that is? They had their own voices for starts, but why go over all of this again & again & again ... You'll come around one day.

Sure, I've read, thought about, and rejected what you've said. As I and others have repeatedly noted, it's not a question of some subjective, elusive quality like depth or seriousness or sense or purpose. You speak of composers having their own voice, yet Williams's style certainly sounds very recognizable to my ears. Because I hear it a certain way, does that automatically create a truth?

Now, if Williams's film music can't be considered classical music because it's derivative of others' music, you should a) show it with concrete musical examples (which you've refused to do) and b) reject all the composers out there who can sound like their peers or forebears. A bunch of the classical canon would be instantly wiped out.

Quote
the music itself divorced from it's commercial  hit film context basically is tho .. I know it's hard for you acknowledge this but maybe one day when you're listening to your Conan the Barbarian soundtrack at home you'll understand.

If it's ephemeral, why do people still listen to soundtrack music on its own, works by the composers I listed above, and others like Bernstein, Herrmann, Rosza, Waxman, Steiner, et al.? All dead and gone, yet still listened to, studied, and enjoyed, ergo not ephemeral.

And have you listened to the Conan the Barbarian soundtrack and seen the movie? Unlike you, I'm offering specific examples, in this case of how music can be foregrounded in what is essentially a music drama.

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 21, 2010, 09:01:04 AM
Quote from: James on December 21, 2010, 08:36:47 AM
Where are all of the musical heavyweights coming out of the film world then? Certainly it's not the model or routine in creating such a thing, is it.

Valid point.   I agree that this certainly is not the model or routine approach-- particularly in the last coupla decades.  But that is a lot softer a stance than saying the two paths were mutually exclusive-- which has been the assertion you've made earlier that I've been questioning. 

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 21, 2010, 09:09:07 AM
Quote from: James on December 21, 2010, 08:31:14 AM
...Going into film isn't 'serious' or deeply artistic music making ... it's about the world of film and commercialism...
You don't do your argument any good by making a universal statement like this that can be so easily discredited by a single counter-example; in this case, Koyaanisqatsi and its two companion films, Powaqqatsi and Nakoyqatsi.  Whatever you think of Philip Glass, for these movies he worked closely with director Godfrey Reggio and photography director Ron Fricke as the films were being shot, before there was anything like a finished visual product.  The resulting films are completely original, have a deeply artistic conception and a strong message, and--at least for me--are deeply moving.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 21, 2010, 09:11:06 AM
Quote from: James on December 21, 2010, 08:31:14 AM
Going into film isn't 'serious' or deeply artistic music making ... it's about the world of film and commercialism.

Believe it or not, not all films are commercial.  Just as music can have its "popular" and "art" camps, so can film.  ( I'm assuming most of us have  heard of art films before, and possibly even seen one.)   Would you consider Koyaanasqatsi a commercial film with a superficial plot?

Yes, the majority of films produced today aren't art films, but neither is the majority of music produced in this country "art music".   Assuming that one medium is capable of artistic expression and that another is not capable  is a bit of reach, isn't it?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 21, 2010, 09:13:18 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on December 21, 2010, 09:09:07 AM
You don't do your argument any good by making a universal statement like this that can be so easily discredited by a single counter-example; in this case, Koyaanisqatsi and its two companion films, Powaqqatsi and Nakoyqatsi.  Whatever you think of Philip Glass, for these movies he worked closely with director Godfrey Reggio and photography director Ron Fricke as the films were being shot, before there was anything like a finished visual product.  The resulting films are completely original, have a deeply artistic conception and a strong message, and--at least for me--are deeply moving.

Funny-- we posted this example at the same time.

FWIW-- Koyaanisqatsi is probably my favorite Glass work, and I also think the full Score works much better as a whole than the truncated soundtrack album that was first released. 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 21, 2010, 09:18:31 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on December 21, 2010, 09:09:07 AM
You don't do your argument any good by making a universal statement like this that can be so easily discredited by a single counter-example; in this case, Koyaanisqatsi and its two companion films, Powaqqatsi and Nakoyqatsi.  Whatever you think of Philip Glass, for these movies he worked closely with director Godfrey Reggio and photography director Ron Fricke as the films were being shot, before there was anything like a finished visual product.  The resulting films are completely original, have a deeply artistic conception and a strong message, and--at least for me--are deeply moving.
Yep--and I actually listen to the soundtracks occasionally.  But then I think some of Glass's best work has been scoring for film. 

So, what's next?  Discussing "genius" with Josquin?  Pelleas & Melisande with Eric?   Beethoven with paulb?  Anything with Saul?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 21, 2010, 09:20:03 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 21, 2010, 09:18:31 AM
So, what's next?  Discussing "genius" with Josquin?  Pelleas & Melisande with Eric?   Beethoven with paulb?  Anything with Saul?

We could try to proclaim Mendelssohn is not classical music, but what would be the fun with Saul here?   :(
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 21, 2010, 09:34:20 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 21, 2010, 09:20:03 AM
We could try to proclaim Mendelssohn is not classical music, but what would be the fun with Saul here?   :(
Well, it's obvious to anyone with ears, sensitivity, genius, and chosen people status that Mendelssohn's music is not classical, since much of what he composed was in the new-fangled Romantic mode outside of the tradition and had extra-musical illustrative purposes.   ;)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 21, 2010, 09:39:04 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on Today at 06:55:40 AM

Film composers aren't serious musicians? Shostakovich, Vaughan Williams, Copland, and Korngold--to name but a few--weren't serious musicians? Why are advanced degrees in film music offered? Why is it taught as part of standard composition curricula? Why is the function and history of film music taught in liberal arts programs? You clearly aren't serious about film and film music, but others are.


Quote from: James on December 21, 2010, 08:31:14 AM
We're went over this before. They aren't known & associated with just films tho are they? Nope, hardly .. they did lots else.

True, and conceded.  I can't think of any "serious" composer I know of and like that only wrote for film, and the examples we've been citing have demonstrated their worth in other applications.   

However, that is a long way from some of the previous assertions such as:
Quote from: James on December 15, 2010, 08:39:42 AM
And what real deep musician who takes their music seriously would want their 'music' premiered in such a way? Often buried & competing in the audio mix of constant dialog and sound effects associated with film. Can you imagine ..

As we've pointed out, the names of musicians that either did (or expressed the willingness to) have their music premiered in such a way included the likes of Vaughan Williams, Alwyn, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Shostakovitch, Schoenberg, Glass,  etc.   

Once again, I have no trouble conceding the point that they may be the minority of film composers, or that they earned a great deal of their street cred on other applications.   Nor that, for me personally, John Williams doesn't do it for me.  (Although  I really like Jerry Goldsmith's score for Alien-- a lot of which was never used in the film). 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 21, 2010, 09:42:32 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 21, 2010, 09:18:31 AM
Yep--and I actually listen to the soundtracks occasionally.  But then I think some of Glass's best work has been scoring for film. 

So, what's next?  Discussing "genius" with Josquin?  Pelleas & Melisande with Eric?   Beethoven with paulb?  Anything with Saul?

I personally think a thread with all of the above, mixed in with some more religion, Theresa's take on flouridation and progressivism, and liberally sprinkled with jowcol's pointless zen asides and annoying Socratic questions is the next step.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 21, 2010, 09:48:33 AM
How about this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Lt%2BhDFlYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ohl0gORYvQ&feature=related

These are the audio clips used as background in "Our Gang" or "The Little Rascals."  I believe there is no surviving score, they existed as a series of film clips that hung on a rack in the studio to be pasted together as the audio track of each episode was edited.  When the show went out of production, the clips were tossed in the trash.   The artists in the album pictured reconstructed the clips by listening to the film soundtracks.  The worst "pastiche" music, or chamber music?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 21, 2010, 10:01:48 AM
Quote from: jowcol on December 21, 2010, 09:42:32 AM
I personally think a thread with all of the above, mixed in with some more religion, Theresa's take on flouridation and progressivism, and liberally sprinkled with jowcol's pointless zen asides and annoying Socratic questions is the next step.
Let's not forget Newman on Mozart!

But, sadly, that jowcol fellow's zenish aphorisms don't cut the cheese mustard for inclusion in this august company...maybe Sean's efforts to explain the Bhagavad Gita to child prostitutes in Thailand would fit?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 21, 2010, 10:08:08 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 21, 2010, 10:01:48 AM
Let's not forget Newman on Mozart!

But, sadly, that jowcol fellow's zenish aphorisms don't cut the cheese mustard for inclusion in this august company...maybe Sean's efforts to explain the Bhagavad Gita to child prostitutes in Thailand would fit?

Along with some snapshots of underage Asian girls in hotel rooms, and Sean in his bathing suit   (http://www.penguinhuggle.com/chat/smileys/puke.gif)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on December 21, 2010, 10:48:43 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 20, 2010, 11:21:41 AM
Too bad the Missa doesn't use a piccolo flute.

What? Really? Does Missa Solemnis use only flute? Sounds so piccolo...  ??? Maybe it's flute played very high then? I am not an expert of instruments. Whatever it is I like it.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 21, 2010, 10:55:09 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on December 21, 2010, 10:48:43 AM
I am not an expert of instruments.

QFT
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 21, 2010, 11:40:50 AM
Quote from: James on December 21, 2010, 11:32:54 AM
. . . And on top of this, the film work that they tried their hands at is nowhere near the apex or full potential of their creative musical output, it's mostly just a curious footnote.

No, you're over-selling here, JamesAleksandr Nevsky earns its place in concert as an oratorio staple; and Lt Kizhe is really the benchmark for suite of film stuff which merits concert presentation.

And Shostakovich's music for the Kozintsev Shakespeare films, Hamlet and King Lear, are marvels of musical underpinning.

Nothing merely curious-footnote-ish about any of these efforts.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 21, 2010, 12:11:41 PM
Quote from: James on December 21, 2010, 11:32:54 AM
Or ever from the 'get go'. Read my recent reply to jochanaan, it applies to all of the big name composers who came from outside & dabbled in cinema that people are throwing into the thread in order to prop up the 'seriousness' of the music it produces. Forgetting where and how these men started. They were not the products of film classes. And on top of this, the film work that they tried their hands at is nowhere near the apex or full potential of their creative musical output, it's mostly just a curious footnote.

James, the problem I (and I think others) are having with your approach to this discussion is its combination of sweeping generalization, self-contradiction, and lack of evidence/dismissal of evidence that doesn't serve your ends.

I think I can safely summarize the gist of your posts in this thread as the following:

You posit a category of music called "classical music" or "art music" that is of high quality, serious in conception, and deep in intent and/or effect. Said music is predicated on a pure art-for-arts sake mentality that forsakes remuneration, collaboration, or courting audience approval.  It is music which is non-commercial, lasting in value, and worthy of study.

You feel that film music, John Williams music in general, and Williams's score for Star Wars are none of these things.

The problem is that the boundary you are trying to set up to keep the supposed barbarians outside the gate is built on flimsy foundations. How does one define deep or serious? Apparently it is whatever you say it is. What makes some music high quality and other low? Whatever you say it is. You steadfastly refuse to discuss musical particulars and rely on "it's obvious." Could you please tell us something concrete about the score's melody, rhythm, harmony, structure, and instrumentation?

Additionally, I and others have provided numerous examples of how "classical" composers have not always stood the test of time or have met with varied critical reception over time, have created music for money, have courted audience appeal, and have, yes, written for film. (If that's so terrible, why would such great artists supposedly demean themselves by tackling it?)

Additionally, you demonstrate little if any sympathy for or understanding of film (and by extension film music) as a serious art form, one that is created, by some, with earnest and diligent intent to express their creativity or worldview. It is, nevertheless, an art form studied by scholars and critics, practiced by schooled professionals, discussed and debated by enthusiasts, and preserved in archives.

You are in such are hurry to exclude certain things from the supposedly pristine world of classical music that you do those things no intellectual justice and end up with a definition of classical music that is doomed to failure.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 21, 2010, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: James on December 21, 2010, 12:22:32 PM
No contradictions whatsoever, and no lack of evidence either. And other than the composers that people are tossing into the mix who 'dabbled in' cinema but certainly never came from that world. Name me one film composer who even comes close at all? Can't be done - and that's really the bottomline.
I suppose that George Gershwin couldn't have become a recognized "classical composer" either?  Before you react, please remember that his entire early training was as a professional songwriter on Tin Pan Alley...

Just because something "has never been done" by your standards, doesn't mean it can't be done.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 21, 2010, 01:16:39 PM
Quote from: James on December 21, 2010, 01:15:27 PM
Maybe one day a film composer from the film world will have 'other goals' too, and get tired of the formalic routine of cinema and push ahead into deeper and greater artistic pastures... & achieve something similar (in their own voice, of course), but it's nowhere to be seen; yet ...

lol
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 21, 2010, 03:21:53 PM
Quote from: James on December 21, 2010, 12:22:32 PM
No contradictions whatsoever, and no lack of evidence either. And other than the composers that people are tossing into the mix who 'dabbled in' cinema but certainly never came from that world. Name me one film composer who even comes close at all? Can't be done - and that's really the bottomline.

The initial point was valid, but now the causality in this direction  is a bit confused for the unenlightened such as myself. 


So you are saying that at a college like Berklee, all of the students who major in film scoring are not trained in anything else?   Are forbidden at all times to even think about writing symphonies or concerti? So one "comes from the film world" as an alternative to a more "regular" education in music?  If not, the distinction you are drawing doesn't make sense,. since it would be impossible to "come from" the film world without first being exposed to the "classics"

It would seem more realistic that someone who scores for film would have a more tradtional education, and would choose to invest both their time and level of personal dedication based on their own inclinations, not something they'd read here.

Eagerly awaiting the next permutation.







Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 21, 2010, 07:44:11 PM
Eleni Karaindrou:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-kekZGK-d4
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 22, 2010, 02:41:58 AM
Quote from: James on December 21, 2010, 04:33:05 PM
jowcol read my last reply to jochanaan ... it foreshadows most of the Qs & concerns youre asking about. Sure, i guess 'it could be possible' for someone who (by choice) is steeped in working for cinema; deciding to break out of that mold ... find their own voice and creating standalone music on their own terms in a major way () ... but it's yet to be seen. That whole world doesn't seem to be the proper breeding ground.

I've read it (again), but not sure if it helps me tread the path to enlightenment. 

First, it seems like you are using a binary model to analyze this-- either you are "in film" or you aren't.   It strikes me as an oversimplified approach.  Where would we put the likes of William Alwyn and Malcom Arnold , who wrote MANY film scores as well as several more serious orchestral works?    (There is nothing really  commercial about some of the later symphonies both of them wrote.  Arnold's 7th and Alwyn's 3rd and 5th have some thorny elements.) 

So, instead of a simple yes-no, binary model, suppose we took a more probablistic approach, where we said that the "more" a given composer wrote for film, the less likely they would be to create "serious" works.  ( ALthough, we have to admit that getting a consensus on "serious" will never happen).  This allows the spectrum of involvement to be covered, and allows the case where something written for film can have serious or lasting value (e.g.,  Odd Man Out, Koyaanasqatsi), or that an accomplished "serious" composer can have also written for film without being totally destroyed by the Hollywood film machine.

I think this would cover some of the examples and suggested associations, but still leave room for the "exception that proves the rule". 

But is this dichotomy limited to film?  Any composer needs to decide how they are going to pay the bills unless they are independently wealthy, and has the need to identify and communicate with SOME sort of audience.   Yes, I can create my own bizarre musical language, but I may not have any lasting impact if NO ONE really hears or sees the music I've written.

Once again-- the "breeding ground" probably takes place in the educational system, not the "workplace".  A student may elect to take a film scoring course, but that happens before, not after they score a film...

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 22, 2010, 10:14:59 AM
Quote from: James on December 22, 2010, 07:57:49 AM
Was referring to those who consciously decide-to work in film & TV.

Still binary then?   Does this put Alwyn and Arnold on the side of evil?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 22, 2010, 12:16:13 PM
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 22, 2010, 12:23:29 PM
Quote from: jowcol on December 22, 2010, 10:14:59 AM
Still binary then?   Does this put Alwyn and Arnold on the side of evil?

(http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/12/1286/YGBO000Z/posters/darth-vader.jpg)

Darth Delious needed some . . . persuasion, too.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 22, 2010, 01:17:37 PM
Quote from: James on December 22, 2010, 12:07:28 PM
Zzzz we've been through this drill so many times.

Yes, without an answer....l.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 22, 2010, 01:48:33 PM
Quote from: James on December 22, 2010, 01:30:47 PM
No, the answer was given pages ago .. but some folks here keep desperately trying to draw parallels over and over where it doesn't even apply.

Perhaps you can show some of those desperate folks the quote, to ease their desperate sense of desperation.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 22, 2010, 01:54:13 PM
Quote from: James on December 22, 2010, 01:30:47 PM
No, the answer was given pages ago .. but some folks here keep desperately trying to draw parallels over and over where it doesn't even apply.
Not parallels--counter-examples that disprove your too-broad statements about film composers.  Big difference. :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Luke on December 22, 2010, 01:54:45 PM
Quote from: James on December 21, 2010, 11:18:28 AM
Again .. Glass like the others mentioned earlier who 'dabbled' in film isn't known for just that stuff is he? It's not the central path, never was.

I'm not at all sure about that, James (but I don't want to enter the argument in general). Glass's film scores are, undeniably, like it or not, a major part of his output, volume-wise, and are a large part of the reason why he is widely known. But actually, forget his more recent scores, and just focus on those scores for Reggio's 'Qatsi' trilogy which have been mentioned so much. The first, Koyaanisqatsi, is generally held to be one of Glass's finest and most representative compositions - if the Glass style is for you, and I appreciate that it isn't for many, then it doesn't come purer, better or more perfectly realised than that score. Akhenaten is maybe the only thing that comes close - the pure, unadulterated and, yes, in this case inspired Glass style, writ large. The Koyaanisqatsi score isn't the mere 'dabbling' you claim. It is, I think, to quite significant extent, a very important piece in his oeuvre as a whole.

And as for

QuoteHe took an alternate path for find himself first .. got involved with and dabbled in some film much later. He was one of Nadia Boulanger's composition pupils, he certainly didn't come from film school ...

the irony is that actually, it wasn't Nadia Boulanger who helped him find his 'alternative path' at all - it was working on film scores. They weren't something he came to much later, as you say, but were something he was working on very early on, and without which he may not have developed that 'alternative path'!

Quote from: WikiIn parallel with his early excursions in experimental theatre, Glass worked in winter 1965 and spring 1966 as a music director and composer on a film score (Chappaqua, Conrad Rooks, 1966) with Ravi Shankar and Alla Rakha, which added another important influence on Glass's musical thinking. His distinctive style arose from his work with Shankar and Rakha and their perception of rhythm in Indian music as being entirely additive. He renounced all his compositions in a moderately modern style resembling Milhaud's, Aaron Copland's, and Samuel Barber's, and began writing pieces based on repetitive structures of Indian music
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 22, 2010, 03:05:58 PM
(http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/images/newman1.jpg)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 22, 2010, 03:23:02 PM
Quote from: James on December 22, 2010, 02:02:56 PM
Start HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15153.160.html) and work your way through the rest.

I'm sorry, I'll admit I'm not too bright, but I couldn't find any mention  of Alwyn or Arnold in any of your posts.   I may have missed something.


Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 22, 2010, 03:37:45 PM
Quote from: jowcol on December 22, 2010, 03:23:02 PM
I'm sorry, I'll admit I'm not too bright....
You must be some kind of genius!

Quote from: jowcol on December 22, 2010, 03:23:02 PMI may have missed something.
Yep...a genius!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Luke on December 22, 2010, 03:45:59 PM
Cheers, James.

I know what you are saying - but it's also true that, as that Wiki quotation suggests, in the light of his early film music experiences Glass rejected working inside the tradition within which Boulanger was to be found - to requote, 'He renounced all his compositions in a moderately modern style resembling Milhaud's, Aaron Copland's, and Samuel Barber's'. Not, of course, to suggest that she didn't teach him valuable things, but only to emphasize that if he was, as you say 'consciously coming from' NB, then it was as something to react away from much more than as something to emulate. That sort of influence is equally important, I suppose, perhaps, but only if influence can be defined in a negative way.

I have to admit that this fact has almost nothing to do with the fact that it was film music that Glass was working on and everything to do with the fact of its being Indian music - but actually, I suppose, it was that open-to-all-areas aspect of film music which allowed him to encounter Indian music in this way... as a musician with experimental leanings, he needed that at least as much as he needed Boulanger, I suspect.

A subsidiary point deriving from this would be, I suppose, that throughout musical history experimental musicians of all hues have seized on the exposure to new musics and new musical possibilities that new technology such as film opened up to them. It's a side issue, of course, because I'm not talking Hollywood film here, though I know that's the real subject of the thread - I'm thinking of things like Satie's music for Rene Clair's filmed Entr'acte to the Satie/Picabia ballet Relache (click here (http://www.ubu.com/film/clair_entracte.html) to watch it - you see Satie and Picabia cavorting around the rooftops of Paris with a cannon - one of the great visual treats of music history!  ;D  ;D  ;D), or Berg's music for the filmed interlude in Lulu - there are endless examples of this sort of thing, of course. My point is that though there is clearly a distinction between this kind of film music, if it can be called that, and 'Hollywood' film music, the boundary is not a clear-cut one. Because I wouldn't know which side of that boundary Glass's Koyaanisqatsi score would fall - the film is certainly a thought-provoking and potentially profound work of art, and certainly experimental too (the first time time lapse filming showed its true artistic potential, to start with), but it also has mass appeal (the kids at my school LOVE it!!). And because the boundary is blurry, I'd be wary of writing off all film music as artistically (shall we say) compromised, even though there are clearly many cases where it seems to be so. I'm sure no one is doing that, though, so I'm probably waffling for no reason.  :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Luke on December 23, 2010, 01:31:41 AM
Quote from: James on December 22, 2010, 05:19:17 PM
Is this Glass thing performed standalone ... just curious. And since you've decided to get involved, what's your personal take on Star Wars? Classical or not? Just kidding, I think I already know the answer  ;D lol

Thanks for all that, James. Re Koyaanisqatsi - yes, it does get performed as a standalone piece. I'm just looking at Glass's very snazzy website and see that it's been performed at least three times in the last 18 months.

Re the Star Wars* question, I'm glad you know the answer as to what my own personal take is, because, quite genuinely, I myself don't! I can honestly see both sides of the argument, and I could be swayed either way depending, I think, on my own mood and the harshness of my own personal definition of what constitutes 'Classical Music' at any point. I have a tendency to agree with your difficulty admitting Star Wars to the set 'Classical Music' as I personally understand and sense the term, and I also have sympathy for some of the things you are saying about what the nature of real 'Classical Music' is, or should be - that it should be concerned with itself and its own integrity. But even so, I don't think that a workable argument can really be constructed on those lines because virtually all music straddles borders between the two worlds you are positing in slippery ways - the Blue Danube/Nutcracker/Mozart Divertimento sort of argument that has been put to you, but the same thing also applies to almost everything else, to Mahler, to Stockhausen, to Chopin, to Landini (what a disparate bunch!). However profound, full of integrity or advanced the music might be, there is always that aspect of it which seeks to entertain, that aspect of it which seeks to please, and that aspect which seeks to interest an audience by shock value, whether that be triple trills, quartets in helicopters or hammerblows-in-finales (in an almost commercial, competitive way, as has been argued elsewhere is the case with the romantic symphony, for example). So I don't think I would use that argument against Star Wars.

So I think that the anti-music-as-entertainment and anti-music-as-commercial-product line doesn't really hold water, but I think that if you were arguing that the composer of classical music is allowed to work (or wishes to work) with more artistic integrity than the composer of film scores, you might be close to the truth. That possibility of independent integrity is the difference, it seems to me, between otherwise frivolous entertainments such as The Nutcracker and much entertaining film scoring - that in composing The Nutcracker, however fun and frothy it is, Tchaikovsky didn't for even one bar, one note, allow himself or need to allow himself to pad or to lower his standards or to ape other composers, all of which film scores often do; nor, more to the point (because film scores don't have to be that way), in composing The Nutcracker Tchaikovsky knew that his music would always be centre stage, would not be chopped and changed or made subservient to. That was part of what Karl was saying, I think...

Karl argued that the composer of a film score is not free, is not his own man, his music can be chopped, changed, faded out, made subservient to on-screen action and dialogue, and that this isn't true in Classical Music proper, not even in ballet...and he's quite right, though I think when he argued that Williams wasn't a very good composer he was obscuring his point - the skills of the composer are not, I think, related to the classification of the music. Saul, after all, writes music which is sorta kinda broadlyish in a classical style, and I guess we have to call it classical music. But I think that Karls' original point is where the answer lies - and to return to where  came in, in composing Koayaanisqatsi, Glass was in control, not a name found far down the credits but right at the top next to director Reggio and photographer Fricke. The result is a very special case, a film without plot, without dialogue, in which the camerawork, the imagery and the music carry the film entirely, and I don't think it's a coincidence that it and its two sister films are some of the only films which I feel work as standalone music and which I would without hesitation classify as Classical.

* Star Wars standing for Hollywood film scores in general, of course - my own opinion of the Star Wars music is pretty low, and the same of Williams' stuff in general, with a few exceptions, but that oughtn't be the issue. I'm well aware that you don't have to go to the established classical composers who also composed film music to find film composers of real skill, even though I'm not a film music buff in the slightest. Film-scoring can be approached in a really interesting, adventurous way; the film can prompt the composer to explore sounds that he or she may not have even considered were they to be writing concert music, and thus produce something completely new and original. I'm thinking here of, for instance, Danny Elfman's score for A Simple Plan - Elfman is a very skilled film composer, of course, but I'd never have given him a second thought if I hadn't seen this film and been so impressed by the aural imagination he showed, and the not-bound-to-concert-hall freedom which the medium allows him to explore it with - microtonal flutes and pianos, unconventional playing techniques etc. etc. It's not a sound I'd ever heard before, not with all my weird and wonderful contemporary listening, this blend of Harry Partch and Hitchcock/Hermann, and as such I am grateful to Elfman in precisely the same way (though admittedly smaller) as I am grateful to Partch himself, for instance, for the new sounds his music introduced me to...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 23, 2010, 01:56:09 AM
Quote from: Luke on December 23, 2010, 01:31:41 AM
Thanks for all that, James. Re Koyaanisqatsi - yes, it does get performed as a standalone piece. I'm just looking at Glass's very snazzy website and see that it's been performed at least three times in the last 18 months.

Re the Star Wars* question, I'm glad you know the answer as to what my own personal take is, because, quite genuinely, I myself don't! I can honestly see both sides of the argument, and I could be swayed either way depending, I think, on my own mood and the harshness of my own personal definition of what constitutes 'Classical Music' at any point. I have a tendency to agree with your difficulty admitting Star Wars to the set 'Classical Music' as I personally understand and sense the term, and I also have sympathy for some of the things you are saying about what the nature of real 'Classical Music' is, or should be - that it should be concerned with itself and its own integrity. But even so, I don't think that a workable argument can really be constructed on those lines because virtually all music straddles borders between the two worlds you are positing in slippery ways - the Blue Danube/Nutcracker/Mozart Divertimento sort of argument that has been put to you, but the same thing also applies to almost everything else, to Mahler, to Stockhausen, to Chopin, to Landini (what a disparate bunch!). However profound, full of integrity or advanced the music might be, there is always that aspect of it which seeks to entertain, that aspect of it which seeks to please, and that aspect which seeks to interest an audience by shock value, whether that be triple trills, quartets in helicopters or hammerblows-in-finales (in an almost commercial, competitive way, as has been argued elsewhere is the case with the romantic symphony, for example). So I don't think I would use that argument against Star Wars.

So I think that the anti-music-as-entertainment and anti-music-as-commercial-product line doesn't really hold water, but I think that if you were arguing that the composer of classical music is allowed to work (or wishes to work) with more artistic integrity than the composer of film scores, you might be close to the truth. That possibility of independent integrity is the difference
, it seems to me, between otherwise frivolous entertainments such as The Nutcracker and much entertaining film scoring - that in composing The Nutcracker, however fun and frothy it is, Tchaikovsky didn't for even one bar, one note, allow himself or need to allow himself to pad or to lower his standards or to ape other composers, all of which film scores often do; nor, more to the point (because film scores don't have to be that way), in composing The Nutcracker Tchaikovsky knew that his music would always be centre stage, would not be chopped and changed or made subservient to. That was part of what Karl was saying, I think...

Karl argued that the composer of a film score is not free, is not his own man, his music can be chopped, changed, faded out, made subservient to on-screen action and dialogue, and that this isn't true in Classical Music proper, not even in ballet...and he's quite right, though I think when he argued that Williams wasn't a very good composer he was obscuring his point - the skills of the composer are not, I think, related to the classification of the music. Saul, after all, writes music which is sorta kinda broadlyish in a classical style, and I guess we have to call it classical music. But I think that Karls' original point is where the answer lies - and to return to where  came in, in composing Koayaanisqatsi, Glass was in control, not a name found far down the credits but right at the top next to director Reggio and photographer Fricke. The result is a very special case, a film without plot, without dialogue, in which the camerawork, the imagery and the music carry the film entirely, and I don't think it's a coincidence that it and its two sister films are some of the only films which I feel work as standalone music and which I would without hesitation classify as Classical.

* Star Wars standing for Hollywood film scores in general, of course - my own opinion of the Star Wars music is pretty low, and the same of Williams' stuff in general, with a few exceptions, but that oughtn't be the issue. I'm well aware that you don't have to go to the established classical composers who also composed film music to find film composers of real skill, even though I'm not a film music buff in the slightest. Film-scoring can be approached in a really interesting, adventurous way; the film can prompt the composer to explore sounds that he or she may not have even considered were they to be writing concert music, and thus produce something completely new and original. I'm thinking here of, for instance, Danny Elfman's score for A Simple Plan - Elfman is a very skilled film composer, of course, but I'd never have given him a second thought if I hadn't seen this film and been so impressed by the aural imagination he showed, and the not-bound-to-concert-hall freedom which the medium allows him to explore it with - microtonal flutes and pianos, unconventional playing techniques etc. etc. It's not a sound I'd ever heard before, not with all my weird and wonderful contemporary listening, this blend of Harry Partch and Hitchcock/Hermann, and as such I am grateful to Elfman in precisely the same way (though admittedly smaller) as I am grateful to Partch himself, for instance, for the new sounds his music introduced me to...

Thanks Luke-- a very well-thought out discussion that incorporates multiple factors, viewpoints, and shades of degree, substantiated with frequent examples, and clear identification of personal opinions vs facts.  I bolded a couple points that particularly resonated with me.

Very well done.  Thou art truly on the road to Buddhahood.


(http://www.buddhisttours.net/images/buddha-enlightenment.jpg)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 23, 2010, 02:04:58 AM
Quote from: James on December 22, 2010, 03:28:28 PM
You said it, not me/us/they/them.

The search function on the GMG website was also not very bright, as it could not find their names either on any of your posts.

With all due respect to the Simple Machines company that implemented the search engine....
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 23, 2010, 02:24:31 AM
Quote from: jowcol on December 23, 2010, 01:56:09 AM
Thanks Luke-- a very well-thought out discussion that incorporates multiple factors, viewpoints, and shades of degree, substantiated with frequent examples, and clear identification of personal opinions vs facts.  I bolded a couple points that particularly resonated with me.

Very well done.  Thou art truly on the road to Buddhahood.
As a whole, my reaction was similar to yours. But on one point we differed, that being " So I think that the anti-music-as-entertainment and anti-music-as-commercial-product line doesn't really hold water, but I think that if you were arguing that the composer of classical music is allowed to work (or wishes to work) with more artistic integrity than the composer of film scores, you might be close to the truth. That possibility of independent integrity is the difference..."

Perhaps I don't know enough about the ins and outs of film music (and thus lack crucial information), but this was the one thing I really disagreed with. If we were to ask Williams, Mancini, Shore, etc., whether they had lost their musical/artisitic integrity in writing film scores, I suspect they would not agree.

If what is meant by this is that there are compromises made that the composer might not otherwise have faced, I think I would be more quiet. But many composers in history have faced censors of some sort or another, and changed plots, music, etc. because of it. Working with others in a business like film seems quite analogous to that example (to me).


Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 23, 2010, 05:24:52 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on December 23, 2010, 02:24:31 AM
Perhaps I don't know enough about the ins and outs of film music (and thus lack crucial information), but this was the one thing I really disagreed with. If we were to ask Williams, Mancini, Shore, etc., whether they had lost their musical/artisitic integrity in writing film scores, I suspect they would not agree.

This is why I keep asking, in vain, for some evidence. Let's see some pertinent quotes from the musicians under discussion, be they "pure" film composers, or ones who've written for both film and directly the concert hall, such as Alwyn and Arnold. It's unfair, if not dishonest, to ascribe motives to them without letting them speak for themselves. Similarly, it's unfair to discount a piece of music, in this case the Star Wars soundtrack, without actually referencing its details. The Glass discussion is finally taking this in a more useful direction.*

Quote
If what is meant by this is that there are compromises made that the composer might not otherwise have faced, I think I would be more quiet. But many composers in history have faced censors of some sort or another, and changed plots, music, etc. because of it. Working with others in a business like film seems quite analogous to that example (to me).

Shostakovich provides a notable (and notably thorny) example of this sort of thing. Unless he wanted to be silenced figuratively or literally, he had to bend.

I'm not sure how well the analogy holds, though: is being forcibly censored with the threat of institutionalized force behind it comparable to bowing consciously to restrictions in a collaborative artistic effort?

Quote from: James on December 23, 2010, 05:00:47 AM
I listened to some clips of it on YouTube last night ... hated it. No surprise really tho ..

Is listening once to "some clips" a fair way to form a judgment of a piece of music?

* or maybe not after all :(
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 23, 2010, 05:38:22 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on December 23, 2010, 02:24:31 AM
As a whole, my reaction was similar to yours. But on one point we differed, that being " So I think that the anti-music-as-entertainment and anti-music-as-commercial-product line doesn't really hold water, but I think that if you were arguing that the composer of classical music is allowed to work (or wishes to work) with more artistic integrity than the composer of film scores, you might be close to the truth. That possibility of independent integrity is the difference..."

Perhaps I don't know enough about the ins and outs of film music (and thus lack crucial information), but this was the one thing I really disagreed with. If we were to ask Williams, Mancini, Shore, etc., whether they had lost their musical/artisitic integrity in writing film scores, I suspect they would not agree.

If what is meant by this is that there are compromises made that the composer might not otherwise have faced, I think I would be more quiet. But many composers in history have faced censors of some sort or another, and changed plots, music, etc. because of it. Working with others in a business like film seems quite analogous to that example (to me).

That is why I forwarded the example of Alwyn and Arnold (with still no response, but I'm not holding my breath either), in that they composed for many film scores as well as many "serious" works.  They didn't dabble on either side, nor do I think they felt compelled to assign themselves to either camp.

Compromises are awfully common and not limited to film-- why did Moussorgsky add the polish scenes and the soprano to Boris Godunov?  He had to in order to   get the opera produced.

If compromise and stifling of individual voices is a bad thing (and I think it is), we have to be equally aware of tastemakers of "serious" music forcing conformity.  Many composers later complained about how stifled they were in their individual expression during the reign of 12-tone and serialism in the 50s.  In this case, the compromise was made in the name of "serious" art, but was equally confining.  While many great works did come out of that period, in retrospect, total serialism could be just as confining a straightjacket as the requirements for a commercial film.  (Sorry, you can't use that tone again until you complete the row...)

I find it pretty meaningful that Rochberg took a lot of flack from the "serious" community for retreating from the strict atonal orthodoxy when he found serialism emotionally inadequate for expressing his grief at the loss of his son, or, in his words:

"It was empty of expressive emotion and was inadequate to express my grief....it is finished, hollow, meaningless."

He was at a crossroads-- should he write what others called "serious music"-- or follow his own voice.   A true artist, IMO, selects the latter.


I strongly agree with James' point  most rewarding art occurs when an artist expresses their personal voice.  I would say, however, that this expression may find itself in collaborations and with other media. I would also not hold it against an artist who does some of their work to pay the bills, and still develops their personal voice and expression with some, and not of their work.

I don't think, that having written for film (and certainly not considering it)  necessarily prevents an artist from expressing their voice over the course of their career. 

I'd also say that when a composer sets out to write "serious" music only to meet external criteria set by others, they are selling out  (whoring themselves, if we want to get blunt), every bit as much as someone who is scoring a film by rote, or writing a commercial jingle.  But even some of the greatest composers will adjust a work to meet a specific audience and situation.  (Debussy, for example, complained about how he needed to knock up his works to satisfy the judges of the Prix de Rome).  But a great composer can rely upon (and sharpen) their purely technical skills when necessary in order to create a personal expression in other works, or , in moments of serendipity, create something that may have both artistic integrity AND meet and arbitrary set of external criteria.


Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 23, 2010, 05:40:04 AM
Quote from: James on December 23, 2010, 05:36:10 AM
Talk is cheap tho (& no real 'evidence') .. you can collect all the quotes you want, ultimately it's the actions & most importantly the music that speaks for itself.

True on multiple levels-- including some that may not have been intended.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on December 23, 2010, 05:45:05 AM
Well, here is John Williams discussing the score from a magazine I used to subscribe to before they went electronic only:

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/features/williams.asp

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 23, 2010, 05:53:28 AM
Quote from: Luke on December 23, 2010, 01:31:41 AM
Thanks for all that, James. Re Koyaanisqatsi - yes, it does get performed as a standalone piece. I'm just looking at Glass's very snazzy website and see that it's been performed at least three times in the last 18 months.

Re the Star Wars* question, I'm glad you know the answer as to what my own personal take is, because, quite genuinely, I myself don't! I can honestly see both sides of the argument, and I could be swayed either way depending, I think, on my own mood and the harshness of my own personal definition of what constitutes 'Classical Music' at any point. I have a tendency to agree with your difficulty admitting Star Wars to the set 'Classical Music' as I personally understand and sense the term, and I also have sympathy for some of the things you are saying about what the nature of real 'Classical Music' is, or should be - that it should be concerned with itself and its own integrity. But even so, I don't think that a workable argument can really be constructed on those lines because virtually all music straddles borders between the two worlds you are positing in slippery ways - the Blue Danube/Nutcracker/Mozart Divertimento sort of argument that has been put to you, but the same thing also applies to almost everything else, to Mahler, to Stockhausen, to Chopin, to Landini (what a disparate bunch!). However profound, full of integrity or advanced the music might be, there is always that aspect of it which seeks to entertain, that aspect of it which seeks to please, and that aspect which seeks to interest an audience by shock value, whether that be triple trills, quartets in helicopters or hammerblows-in-finales (in an almost commercial, competitive way, as has been argued elsewhere is the case with the romantic symphony, for example). So I don't think I would use that argument against Star Wars.

So I think that the anti-music-as-entertainment and anti-music-as-commercial-product line doesn't really hold water, but I think that if you were arguing that the composer of classical music is allowed to work (or wishes to work) with more artistic integrity than the composer of film scores, you might be close to the truth. That possibility of independent integrity is the difference, it seems to me, between otherwise frivolous entertainments such as The Nutcracker and much entertaining film scoring - that in composing The Nutcracker, however fun and frothy it is, Tchaikovsky didn't for even one bar, one note, allow himself or need to allow himself to pad or to lower his standards or to ape other composers, all of which film scores often do; nor, more to the point (because film scores don't have to be that way), in composing The Nutcracker Tchaikovsky knew that his music would always be centre stage, would not be chopped and changed or made subservient to. That was part of what Karl was saying, I think...

Karl argued that the composer of a film score is not free, is not his own man, his music can be chopped, changed, faded out, made subservient to on-screen action and dialogue, and that this isn't true in Classical Music proper, not even in ballet...and he's quite right, though I think when he argued that Williams wasn't a very good composer he was obscuring his point - the skills of the composer are not, I think, related to the classification of the music. Saul, after all, writes music which is sorta kinda broadlyish in a classical style, and I guess we have to call it classical music. But I think that Karls' original point is where the answer lies - and to return to where  came in, in composing Koayaanisqatsi, Glass was in control, not a name found far down the credits but right at the top next to director Reggio and photographer Fricke. The result is a very special case, a film without plot, without dialogue, in which the camerawork, the imagery and the music carry the film entirely, and I don't think it's a coincidence that it and its two sister films are some of the only films which I feel work as standalone music and which I would without hesitation classify as Classical.

* Star Wars standing for Hollywood film scores in general, of course - my own opinion of the Star Wars music is pretty low, and the same of Williams' stuff in general, with a few exceptions, but that oughtn't be the issue. I'm well aware that you don't have to go to the established classical composers who also composed film music to find film composers of real skill, even though I'm not a film music buff in the slightest. Film-scoring can be approached in a really interesting, adventurous way; the film can prompt the composer to explore sounds that he or she may not have even considered were they to be writing concert music, and thus produce something completely new and original. I'm thinking here of, for instance, Danny Elfman's score for A Simple Plan - Elfman is a very skilled film composer, of course, but I'd never have given him a second thought if I hadn't seen this film and been so impressed by the aural imagination he showed, and the not-bound-to-concert-hall freedom which the medium allows him to explore it with - microtonal flutes and pianos, unconventional playing techniques etc. etc. It's not a sound I'd ever heard before, not with all my weird and wonderful contemporary listening, this blend of Harry Partch and Hitchcock/Hermann, and as such I am grateful to Elfman in precisely the same way (though admittedly smaller) as I am grateful to Partch himself, for instance, for the new sounds his music introduced me to...

It's posts like this which make the thread worthwhile at the last. Thanks, Luke.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 23, 2010, 05:55:32 AM
Quote from: James on December 23, 2010, 05:36:10 AM
Talk is cheap tho (& no real 'evidence') .. you can collect all the quotes you want, ultimately it's the actions & most importantly the music that speaks for itself.

Back where you started: no facts, no evidence, no musical examples, no quotes, no scholarship.

***

Anyway, here's a interview with Copland about film music that touches on a lot of the issues that have been raised here:

http://www.runmovies.eu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=117:aaron-copland-talks-about-film-music&catid=35:interviews&ltemid=55

And back to Shostakovich, who composed three dozen film scores over the course of his professional life, here's an article that mentions some of his views on film and film composing:

http://www.filmreference.com/Writers-and-Production-Artists-Sh-Sy/Shostakovich-Dmitri.html
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on December 23, 2010, 06:11:06 AM
Quote from: James on December 23, 2010, 06:04:41 AM
Oh no .. here come *the quotes* .. lol

A recent post from you:

Quote from: James on December 21, 2010, 01:15:27 PM
Yea he was a songwriter; who wrote classic songs, but clearly that wasn't enough for him and he had other goals - 'experimented' with purely instrumental works writing the concert piece The Rhapsody In Blue which became a hit overnight essentially. He even approached the mighty Ravel for lessons and Ravel told him and I quote "Why do you want to be a 2nd rate Ravel - when you're already a first class Gershwin." He approached Stravinsky for lessons too. (Notice who he is gravitating to - not film classes but master musicians!) Other than Stravinsky, the composers he was most fascinated with tho ... were you guessed it! Schoenberg & Berg. (2 more "heavies") And Gershwin's orchestral work An American In Paris influenced the Les Six composers! Then he wrote his final "serious" work Porgy & Bess, an opera which has had a stage life ever since ... with it's songs and fusion of popular & classical styles ... even Duke Ellington was impressed!


And your point? ;)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 23, 2010, 06:15:34 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on December 23, 2010, 05:55:32 AM

Anyway, here's a interview with Copland about film music that touches on a lot of the issues that have been raised here:

http://www.runmovies.eu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=117:aaron-copland-talks-about-film-music&catid=35:interviews&ltemid=55


Thanks for the posts-- it's very interesting to see how different composers addressed the challenge.  Sorry to drag down a spirited discussion with scholarship, but  I particularly like Copeland's comment, as it addresses how the goals for a film score differ than a standalone work, and it also addresses some of James's concerns as well.

QUOTE

Roger Hall: Some past film composers believed that you shouldn't be too aware of the music.

Aaron Copland: I believe too that it shouldn't take up so much of your attention that you stop thinking about the film. It's a high art, I think, to write a really effective film score that doesn't get in the way and serves a fully emotional purpose.

Roger Hall: Some great classical composers of this century, such as Prokofiev and Vaughan Williams, have written for films. Even so, there still seem to be some who think that film music is second rate and not the same as concert music.

Aaron Copland: Well, a lot of it was done by what you might say were movie composer "hacks." In other words, composers who had to write whatever was thrown at them. I had the luxury of not having to live in Hollywood. Once you were on the staff at a studio then you didn't have any choice.

UNQUOTE
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 23, 2010, 06:44:03 AM
This has to the one of the longest troll threads. Where one side consistently says nothing (almost like Newman), and the other side says things (but not really, like those that replied to Newman).
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 23, 2010, 06:45:57 AM
Quote from: jowcol on December 23, 2010, 06:15:34 AM
Thanks for the posts-- it's very interesting to see how different composers addressed the challenge.  Sorry to drag down a spirited discussion with scholarship, but  I particularly like Copeland's comment, as it addresses how the goals for a film score differ than a standalone work, and it also addresses some of James's concerns as well.

I like how Copland suggests an interesting hypothetical experiment of watching the same film with and without the music to understand just how great the music's impact can be on the overall effect. I don't have that exact option, but I have watched parts of familiar films muted, and the difference (in scenes where dialogue doesn't come into play) is striking. (Parts of Kurosowa's Ran, scored by Takemitsu, come to mind.)

Interesting, too, are the views ascribed to Shostakovich in the other article:

QuoteThe two were in complete agreement on the essential function of film music: not to illustrate the action but to add an entirely new dimension, often running in counterpoint to the visuals or even undercutting them.

It's sad that some people deride all film music as sonic wallpaper, when it manifestly does not always function that way.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 23, 2010, 06:54:37 AM
Many thanks for the Copland and Williams links among others. It actually gives me more appreciation for what a film composer must face.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on December 23, 2010, 07:33:00 AM
Quote from: James on December 23, 2010, 06:04:41 AM
Oh no .. here come *the quotes* .. lol

A recent post from you:

Quote from: James on December 21, 2010, 01:15:27 PM
Yea he was a songwriter; who wrote classic songs, but clearly that wasn't enough for him and he had other goals - 'experimented' with purely instrumental works writing the concert piece The Rhapsody In Blue which became a hit overnight essentially. He even approached the mighty Ravel for lessons and Ravel told him and I quote "Why do you want to be a 2nd rate Ravel - when you're already a first class Gershwin." He approached Stravinsky for lessons too. (Notice who he is gravitating to - not film classes but master musicians!) Other than Stravinsky, the composers he was most fascinated with tho ... were you guessed it! Schoenberg & Berg. (2 more "heavies") And Gershwin's orchestral work An American In Paris influenced the Les Six composers! Then he wrote his final "serious" work Porgy & Bess, an opera which has had a stage life ever since ... with it's songs and fusion of popular & classical styles ... even Duke Ellington was impressed!


And your point? ;)


Let me drop a few bread crumbs for you.  You were *lol* at the coming of quotes, yet you used them for your point just recently.....but you knew that and this is typing for myself, which seems to be your intent for me and others here.    :D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on December 23, 2010, 07:51:37 AM
Sure it is.

The funny thing is, that I voted "no" at the start, but thanks to the recent posts, on both sides, I changed my vote.   

This sort of reminds me of the 2008 Presidential Election....the Republicans, for the first time, made me turn another direction, but the other "main" alternative was not overly appealing, so I put my check next to Ralph Nader.  At least he answered the questions in a direct manner that were posed to him. ;)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on December 23, 2010, 08:12:04 AM
These posts from page 4....not sure if you read the entire thread, or not:


Quote from: drogulus on November 12, 2009, 07:49:53 PM
     I wasn't arguing that bleeding chunks of film music are the equivalent of symphonies. It's not cheating for Vaughan Williams to rework his film score into an appropriate form and the same applies to the suites made by Walton, Williams, and Herrman. Nor do you have to think that Williams is as impressive in the concert hall as he is in film. Incidentally, I don't think Herrman has really found a home in the concert hall. His best film music is even more specialized than is ordinarily the case, due to the extraordinary lengths he went to to custom fit it to particular strips of film.* Yet I don't hesitate to call him a great composer.

     * Though it's also the case that Hitchcock cut his film to the music on occasion, which shows the true stature of Herrman. Did Eisenstein do that for Prokofiev? Did Olivier do that for Walton?

And Hermann seems to split them as well:

Bernard Herrmann was active as a musician on several levels. He left behind a legacy of major film scores, recordings for many labels, and concert works. In many respects he remains the most influential of all composers writing for film. Bernard commented that 'many great composers of whatever nationality — Auric, Bliss, Copland, Frankel, Prokofiev, Rota, Shostakovich, Walton — composed for the cinema, as but one aspect of their creative output.'

As close as I come in this matter is looking at composer's original intent, Karl.  In short, you have to ask the composer.  I believe only they have the final say.  So, getting back to the original question, and dealing only with the Star Wars' piece, you would have to ask Johnny Williams IMO.    Any other answer except from him should be checked for on the Op. Ed. page IMO.  ;) 

For example, Danny Elfman might say that a certain composition he wrote for the Batman score was originally a classical piece he wrote for a quintet, but tweaked it a bit for a scene in a movie.  From the standpoint it was a classical piece modified to be a score piece.  You can choose the score side or the classical side, or in my case just see it for what it is as defined by the composer and not put it in either camp.  However, he may of used a classical piece he composed just as is for the movie and in that case he may say it was a classical piece I wrote that worked for that scene.  So, it is a classical piece, being no different then the Mozart pieces that they used in Amadeus.  Or, another movie he may say that he wrote a completely new score for the movie.  In this case it is a movie score.  So we come back to original intent. 

Either way, the question makes for good banter....

Oh, and one more point.  It is nice when music that was written originally for a movie can be enjoyed without the visual component, but it is not necessary for that to be the goal of the composer.

OK, I am done now:

(http://nurtureandnourish.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/snow-white-with-the-poison-apple.jpeg)  :D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 23, 2010, 08:32:01 AM
Quote from: Philoctetes on December 23, 2010, 06:44:03 AM
This has to the one of the longest troll threads. Where one side consistently says nothing (almost exactly like Newman), and the other side says things (but not really, like those that replied to Newman).
Corrected.  ;D

Yep.  Usually folks tire sooner of such one-sided discussions in which the other party isn't really capable of responding. Yet here, as with Newman on Mozart, the topic itself has generated enough interest for many participants to explore it more deeply than before.  My own thinking about the subject has changed, from outright dismissal at first ("Hell no!") to more open-mindedness, informed by contributions from many other posters (excluding James, of course).  For instance, Grazioso's link to the Copland interview is interesting.

As far as the Star Wars soundtrack itself is concerned, I'm still not comfortable with dignifying it as "classical music" rather than "orchestral pop," but until we have a satisfying definition for "classical music" (other than James's subjective assessment of quality, not kind), I doubt the question can be answered to everyone's satisfaction.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 23, 2010, 09:00:11 AM
Quote from: James on December 23, 2010, 08:51:45 AM
Yea lots of talk has transpired .. but the bottomline is that no really substantial film music stuff has been presented.

The bottom line is exactly the Pink Harp's bottom line: the terms are slippery, and you and the Harpster can both satisfy yourselves that no one has "convinced you."
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 23, 2010, 09:02:14 AM
Quote from: James on December 23, 2010, 08:51:45 AM
Yea lots of talk has transpired .. but the bottomline is that no really substantial film music stuff has been presented. All some could come up with was Koyaanisqatsi lol

Multiple links have been provided for you, but I hope that you continue down this path. Like Newman, I think you're awesome.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 23, 2010, 09:04:02 AM
Quote from: James on December 23, 2010, 08:51:45 AM
Yea lots of talk has transpired .. but the bottomline is that no really substantial film music stuff has been presented. All some could come up with was Koyaanisqatsi lol

The fact that you are immune to the presentation of evidence and rational argument is nothing to boast of.

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 23, 2010, 09:05:55 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 23, 2010, 09:04:02 AM
The fact that you are immune to the presentation of evidence rational argument is nothing to boast of.

QFT
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 23, 2010, 09:17:56 AM
Quote from: James on December 23, 2010, 08:51:45 AM
Yea lots of talk has transpired .. but the bottomline is that no really substantial film music stuff has been presented. All some could come up with was Koyaanisqatsi lol

Yup, Prokofiev, Vaughan Williams, Shostakovitch , Alywn and Arnold were pretty insubstantial.  And poor Stravinsky and Schoenberg lost out on their chance to be insubstantial, despite the interest they showed.


Quote from: DavidRoss on December 23, 2010, 08:32:01 AM

Yep.  Usually folks tire sooner of such one-sided discussions in which the other party isn't really capable of responding.

There is always the entertainment value, if nothing else.

http://www.youtube.com/v/zKhEw7nD9C4

Quote from: DavidRoss on December 23, 2010, 08:32:01 AMYet here, as with Newman on Mozart, the topic itself has generated enough interest for many participants to explore it more deeply than before. 

This is actually a very interesting point.

When a topic is debated where the different parties take time to develop their points , a lot of interesting material can be unearthed, and those of us who appreciate the opportunity can take advantage. (You know, they say a mind is like a parachute...)   

I appreciate the links, they were great reading, and Luke's analysis alone was worth the price of admission.  Williams comments on his score not being really pop (while I might not have agreed with him), do shed some interesting insights into his intentions, which would definitely shed more value than having us speculate on them without any basis of reference.



Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 23, 2010, 09:45:24 AM
Quote from: jowcol on December 23, 2010, 09:17:56 AM

I appreciate the links, they were great reading, and Luke's analysis alone was worth the price of admission.  Williams comments on his score not being really pop (while I might not have agreed with him), do shed some interesting insights into his intentions, which would definitely shed more value than having us speculate on them without any basis of reference.
I also thought it interesting that Billboard called it non-pop (if my memory isn't playing tricks on me). That in itself said rather a lot.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 23, 2010, 09:46:32 AM
Well, of mild interest. I find it hard to think of Billboard as a reference ; )
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 23, 2010, 09:49:56 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 23, 2010, 09:46:32 AM
Well, of mild interest. I find it hard to think of Billboard as a reference ; )
Well, that's true. Still...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 23, 2010, 09:59:37 AM
I also would not tend to accept Billboard, but this discussion is interesting.  I've added some highlights.


Quote
CB: The album itself was in the top 20 on Billboard's charts. That was relatively unheard of for a non- pop score. How did you respond to that?

JW: I don't think we ever had in the history of the record industry or a film business something that was so non-pop, with a small "p," reach an audience that size. I have to credit the film for a lot of this. If I had written the music without the film probably nobody ever would have heard of the music; it was the combination of things and the elusive, weird, unpredictable aspect of timing that none of us can quite get our hands around. If we could predict this kind of phenomenon or produce it consciously out of a group effort we would do it every year and we'd all be caliphs surrounded [laughs] with fountains of riches.

But it doesn't work that way, it's a much more elusive thing than that. Any composer who begins to write a piece would think, "this will be a successful piece." But you can't and we don't pull them out of the air that way. It also reminds us that as artists we don't work in a vacuum. We write our material, compose it or film it or whatever, but we're not alone in the vacuum, the audience is also out there and it's going to hit them. With all the aspects of happenstance and fad, and the issue of skirt length for example, which is to say style and fad, and what is à la mode? When all of these things come together and create a phenomenon like this, we then, as we're doing now, look back on it say, "Why did it happen?" It's as fascinating and inexplicable to me as to any viewer.

FWIW-- I tend to think of this as "Pop" in my lexicon, and calling it "non-pop" is a stretch-- but this is my subjective opinion. .  His comments on collaboration and intent are interesting.

Quote
CB: It's interesting that you brought up opera and Wagner. On a certain level it seems like the three scores are almost your "Ring Cycle." How did it become so interwoven when you originally were only scoring one film?

JW: I think if the score has an architectural unity, it's the result of a happy accident. I approached each film as a separate entity. The first one completely out of the blue, but the second one of course connected to the first one; we referred back to characters and extended them and referred back to themes and extended and developed those. I suppose it was a natural but unconscious metamorphoses of musical themes that created something that may seem to have more architectural and conscious interrelatedness than I actually intended to put there. If it's there, to the degree that it is there, it's a kind of happy accident if you like.

That may be sound deprecating—I don't mean it quite that way—but the functional aspect and the craft aspect of doing the job of these three films has to be credited with producing a lot of this unity in the musical content the listeners perceive.
[/b]

Okay-- even though I'm not a Wagner fan, I'd consider this over the top.  Although it is also telling that he did feel that any organic unity outside of the film was a coincidence, as opposed to Copeland's take.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on December 23, 2010, 10:11:59 AM
Found this interesting lecture by Richard Davis, professor at Berklee and film/TV scorer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLdg5MU7sgk

Some interesting quotes, the first attributed to Spielberg, saying that without the music his films wouldn't exist.

The second, by Davis himself: "What we're doing with music in a film is storytelling; we're telling the story of an entire movie," and not just creating individual cues for disparate scenes.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 23, 2010, 10:15:47 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on December 23, 2010, 10:11:59 AM
Found this interesting lecture by Richard Davis, professor at Berklee and film/TV scorer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLdg5MU7sgk

Some interesting quotes, the first attributed to Spielberg, saying that without the music his films wouldn't exist.

The second, by Davis himself: "What we're doing with music in a film is storytelling; we're telling the story of an entire movie," and not just creating individual cues for disparate scenes.

Interesting indeed, particularly how this differs from William's take.  There are probably as many different perspectives on music and film as there are composer who lived in the age of film.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 23, 2010, 10:23:48 AM
a) "Anakins theme" is very lovely classical music
b) The Darth Vader theme IMO is borrowed from Shostakovich Symphony 1, 2nd mvmt.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 23, 2010, 10:30:46 AM
Quote from: James on December 23, 2010, 10:24:09 AM
Evidence? Pfff Hardly .. let's present this amazing film stuff everyone is alluding to (but doesn't exist).. so far all we have is just Koyaanisqatsi which is well lol

Only to exhort:

Eleni Karaindrou:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-kekZGK-d4
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 23, 2010, 12:10:38 PM
Quote from: Philoctetes on December 23, 2010, 06:44:03 AM
This has to the one of the longest troll threads. Where one side consistently says nothing (almost like Newman), and the other side says things (but not really, like those that replied to Newman).

Why thank you, Kevin. Do you have anything other to contribute other than to complain about other participants?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 23, 2010, 12:42:47 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 23, 2010, 12:10:38 PM
Why thank you, Kevin. Do you have anything other to contribute other than to complain about other participants?
'

Why not read my other posts, twat?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 23, 2010, 02:13:15 PM
Quote from: James on December 23, 2010, 10:24:09 AM
Evidence? Pfff Hardly .. let's present this amazing film stuff everyone is alluding to (but doesn't exist).. so far all we have is just Koyaanisqatsi which is well lol

Denial is not a river in Egypt..... ;)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 23, 2010, 02:41:10 PM
Quote from: James on December 23, 2010, 10:24:09 AM
Evidence? Pfff Hardly .. let's present this amazing film stuff everyone is alluding to (but doesn't exist).. so far all we have is just Koyaanisqatsi which is well lol

I'm just surprised to hear that Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Frankel, Alwynn, Vaughan Williams, among others, are not "worthy."  In any case, I'm already tailing to take my own advice by not ignoring the bait.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 23, 2010, 03:02:33 PM
Quote from: Philoctetes on December 23, 2010, 12:42:47 PM
'

Why not read my other posts, twat?

Very classy response, KD.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 23, 2010, 03:03:40 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 23, 2010, 03:02:33 PM
Very classy response, KD.

Well if there is one character trait that I think I exemplify: It's class.

... and decorum.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 23, 2010, 03:04:30 PM
Quote from: Philoctetes on December 23, 2010, 03:03:40 PM
Well if there is one character trait that I think I exemplify: It's class.

... and decorum.

Right.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Luke on December 23, 2010, 03:08:49 PM
Quote from: James on December 23, 2010, 10:24:09 AM
Evidence? Pfff Hardly .. let's present this amazing film stuff everyone is alluding to (but doesn't exist).. so far all we have is just Koyaanisqatsi which is well lol

No, James, you weren't really following, were you? In my case, I wasn't trying to to 'present amazing film stuff'. No, I was trying to inch towards some kind of idea as to what it is that makes film scores a tricky case for classification, by trying to find a film score which is not a tricky case and observing the differences between it and the more usual type of film score. Koyaanisqatsi, which you are as at liberty to scoff at in your standard 'James is being derisive' tones (i.e. insert 'pffff', 'lol', 'blabla' et al at will....  ::) ) as others scoff at Stockhausen is, nevertheless, certainly a piece of Classical Music.* Though I'm not really an admirer of Glass, and especially not of his recent music, I do think that Koyaanisqatsi makes as good a case for it as can be made, and I can't imagine music which would better parallel the imagery of the film, either, for that matter. However, my tastes and your tastes aren't really the issue: Koyaanisqatsi shows that film music can be CM with as much integrity as concert-only music; the question is, or was, why is this, and why doesn't the same apply to all film scores, in principle. I offered my tentative answer last time, I'm not going to do it again**

*and please note, James, that when you asked me for my take on this issue I said I wasn't sure, and I'm still not, but I am sure that the Koyaanisqatsi soundtrack is CM - it is in trying to work out why i'm so sure of this and so unsure about Williams et al that I hope to work out where the nub of the issue is, for me at any rate.

** except to say, Neal, I think, reading your reaction to my post, that actually we do agree on that issue which was troubling you  :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 24, 2010, 11:04:28 AM
Not about Star Wars, but of interest, perhaps, given the more general topic of this discussion.  From Chris Orr's review of the Coen brothers' True Grit:
QuoteBut the real reason to see the film is the work of the Coens' regular collaborators, cinematographer Roger Deakins and composer Carter Burwell, who supply the visual and auditory landscapes that are True Grit's most notable achievement. (Burwell's evocative score, which consists largely of delicate variations on the hymn "Leaning on the Everlasting Arms"—and recalls his magnificent appropriation of "Limerick's Lamentation" in Miller's Crossing—is alone worth the price of admission.)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on December 25, 2010, 04:31:22 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 24, 2010, 11:04:28 AM
Not about Star Wars, but of interest, perhaps, given the more general topic of this discussion.  From Chris Orr's review of the Coen brothers' True Grit:

I smell "Oscar" nominee, David.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on December 28, 2010, 09:55:19 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on December 23, 2010, 02:24:31 AM
As a whole, my reaction was similar to yours. But on one point we differed, that being " So I think that the anti-music-as-entertainment and anti-music-as-commercial-product line doesn't really hold water, but I think that if you were arguing that the composer of classical music is allowed to work (or wishes to work) with more artistic integrity than the composer of film scores, you might be close to the truth. That possibility of independent integrity is the difference..."

Perhaps I don't know enough about the ins and outs of film music (and thus lack crucial information), but this was the one thing I really disagreed with. If we were to ask Williams, Mancini, Shore, etc., whether they had lost their musical/artisitic integrity in writing film scores, I suspect they would not agree.

If what is meant by this is that there are compromises made that the composer might not otherwise have faced, I think I would be more quiet. But many composers in history have faced censors of some sort or another, and changed plots, music, etc. because of it. Working with others in a business like film seems quite analogous to that example (to me).
Censorship is not the only reason that many "classical masterworks" get changed.  Operas and ballets, believe it or not, are seldom if not never given as the composer originally wrote them.  Handel and Mozart both produced several "versions" of the same opera or oratorio.  The Messiah went through at least a dozen revisions during Handel's lifetime, all of them thoroughly dependent on the orchestral and vocal forces he had available; for example, the aria "But who may abide?" exists in arrangements for bass, alto, and soprano--all from Handel's hand!  Mozart added an aria to Don Giovanni specifically because the tenor role did not already have a major aria, and for a Vienna performance he had a tenor who both deserved and (probably) demanded one.  I have played in the orchestra for The Nutcracker maybe two dozen times--not once as Tchaikovsky originally wrote it; every time there have been cuts or scene switches (like the times the Sugar Plum Fairy dance has been moved to the beginning of Act II rather than played near the end as written) or other changes.

Any time you get others involved with your music, it changes.  Inevitably.  Sometimes even for the better. :D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 28, 2010, 10:10:26 AM
Quote from: Bogey on December 25, 2010, 04:31:22 PM
I smell "Oscar" nominee, David.
I saw it yesterday, Bill.  I don't think so.  Of course, you never know with the Motion Picture Academy.  Those clowns are so dumb they confuse Michael Moore's movies for documentaries!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 28, 2010, 10:17:02 AM
Ouch!

: )
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 28, 2010, 10:22:54 AM
Separately: The Empire Strikes Back is one of the 25 films added to the US National Film Registry today.

Others include: Saturday Night Fever & Airplane!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 28, 2010, 11:16:55 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 28, 2010, 10:22:54 AM
Separately: The Empire Strikes Back is one of the 25 films added to the US National Film Registry today.

Others include: Saturday Night Fever & Airplane!


Surely you can't be serious.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 28, 2010, 11:26:36 AM
Guess I picked the wrong month to give up egg nog.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on December 28, 2010, 04:41:31 PM
Stuck at Granny's house waiting for the airport to sort things out I heard (through the walls) lots of old "B" movies blasting on the television.  Lots of "sonic wallpaper" was evident.  Star Wars soundtrack may not be Brahms or Stravinsky, but typical "sonic wallpaper" it aint!

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 29, 2010, 05:25:40 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 28, 2010, 04:41:31 PM
Stuck at Granny's house waiting for the airport to sort things out I heard (through the walls) lots of old "B" movies blasting on the television.  Lots of "sonic wallpaper" was evident.  Star Wars soundtrack may not be Brahms or Stravinsky, but typical "sonic wallpaper" it aint!

Partly that Holst and Stravinsky he 'borrowed' ; )
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on December 29, 2010, 10:16:54 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 29, 2010, 05:25:40 AM
Partly that Holst and Stravinsky he 'borrowed' ; )

Appropriated is probably a better term. Plus with the contextual shift the music is original (Gadamer).
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 29, 2010, 12:40:35 PM
Immature artists imitate. Mature artists steal.
Lionel Trilling


About the most originality that any writer can hope to achieve honestly is to steal with good judgment.
Josh Billings

And for the citation of so many authors, 'tis the easiest thing in nature. Find out one of these books with an alphabetical index, and without any farther ceremony, remove it verbatim into your own... there are fools enough to be thus drawn into an opinion of the work; at least, such a flourishing train of attendants will give your book a fashionable air, and recommend it for sale.
Miguel De Cervantes

Copy from one, it's plagiarism; copy from two, it's research.
Wilson Mizner

Genius Borrows nobly.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

He invades authors like a monarch; and what would be theft in other poets is only victory in him.
John Dryden

I don't think anybody steals anything; all of us borrow.
B. B. King

Ideas improve. The meaning of words participates in the improvement. Plagiarism is necessary. Progress implies it. It embraces an author's phrase, makes use of his expressions, erases a false idea, and replaces it with the right idea.
Guy Debord

If you steal from one author, it's plagiarism; if you steal from many, it's research.
Wilson Mizner


Most writers steal a good thing when they can, and when 'Tis safely got 'Tis worth the winning. The worst of 't is we now and then detect em, they ever dream that we suspect em.
Bryan Waller Proctor

Nothing is new except arrangement.
William J. Durant

Nothing is said which has not been said before.
Terence

Perish those who said our good things before we did.
Donatus

Plagiarists are always suspicious of being stolen from.
Samuel Taylor Coleridge

Plagiarists at least have the quality of preservation.
Benjamin Disraeli

So much of what I am I got from you. I had no idea how much of it was secondhand.
Peter Townsend

Stealing things is a glorious occupation, particularly in the art world.
Malcolm Mclaren

Taking something from one man and making it worse is plagiarism.
George Moore

The human plagiarism which is most difficult to avoid, for individuals... is the plagiarism of ourselves.
Marcel Proust

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Leon on December 29, 2010, 12:48:09 PM
Because of this thread I borrowed some soundtracks from a friend who has hundreds and have listened to a bunch.  What I have come to believe, is that while film music is certainly not classical music it is often very well written music for orchestra and other interesting combinations of instruments.

So far I've heard OST by Elliot Goldenthal, Danny Elfman, Jerry Goldsmith, James Horner, Hans Zimmer, Rachel Portman, Georges Delerue, Henry Mancini, Michel Legrand, David Shire, Alan Silvestri, Alex North, Basil Poledouris, Ennio Morricone, Nino Rota, Bernard Hermann, Patrick Doyle, John Williams - and probably some others.  I've gone through randomly about 75 different film scores over the last week or so.

I doubt any composer writing for film would claim that he is writing classical music, nor would he care.

This music is a genre all it's own and much of it makes for very enjoyable listening.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 29, 2010, 12:57:49 PM
Quote from: Leon on December 29, 2010, 12:48:09 PM
Because of this thread I borrowed some soundtracks from a friend who has hundreds and have listened to a bunch.  What I have come to believe, is that while film music is certainly not classical music it is often very well written music for orchestra and other interesting combinations of instruments.

So far I've heard OST by Elliot Goldenthal, Danny Elfman, Jerry Goldsmith, James Horner, Hans Zimmer, Rachel Portman, Georges Delerue, Henry Mancini, Michel Legrand, David Shire, Alan Silvestri, Alex North, Basil Poledouris, Ennio Morricone, Nino Rota, Bernard Hermann, Patrick Doyle, John Williams - and probably some others.  I've gone through randomly about 75 different film scores over the last week or so.

I doubt any composer writing for film would claim that he is writing classical music, nor would he care.

This music is a genre all it's own and much of it makes for very enjoyable listening.

I'm fond of Goldsmith's Alien soundtrack.  As it turned out, he did not like the way the music was used in the film (a lot was taken from his other scores), so he pushed the release of the OST album to hear it the way he meant it.

From some of the quotes we've seen, the composers had contrasting views of the relative artistic  significance of what they were doing.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Szykneij on December 29, 2010, 02:19:39 PM
I've been following this thread with interest. I don't own the Stars Wars soundtrack, but the discussion has prompted me to order this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61gpMBcrsRL._SS500_.jpg)

Because the pieces on this CD are arranged as performance compositions, are those who answered "no" to the original question "Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music? " more inclined to say "yes" to these works? A classically trained orchestra is required to perform the pieces under the direction of a conductor (I don't know of many jazz French horn players or heavy metal bassoonists), and the musical structure is not dependent upon what's happening on the screen but, presumably, developed using classical composition techniques. Even if you don't think it's good classical, is Sony justified in issuing it under the "classical" label?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 29, 2010, 03:45:16 PM
Quote from: jowcol on December 29, 2010, 12:40:35 PM
Immature artists imitate. Mature artists steal.
Lionel Trilling

They're all excellent citations. This one is especially germane, considering Williams's imitations.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 29, 2010, 03:46:52 PM
Quote from: Szykniej on December 29, 2010, 02:19:39 PM
I've been following this thread with interest. I don't own the Stars Wars soundtrack, but the discussion has prompted me to order this recording:

Good gracious, The Skywalker Symphony.

An icon for pretension. (Or is that the name of an ad hoc ensemble? . . .)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Szykneij on December 29, 2010, 05:04:20 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 29, 2010, 03:46:52 PM
Good gracious, The Skywalker Symphony.

An icon for pretension. (Or is that the name of an ad hoc ensemble? . . .)


I'm assuming that's the name of one of the pieces, but I could be wrong. Williams might have pulled a Leroy Anderson because I think it was recorded when he was conducting the Pops. I'll let you know when it comes in the mail.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on December 29, 2010, 05:05:36 PM
Quote from: jowcol on December 29, 2010, 12:40:35 PM
Immature artists imitate. Mature artists steal.
Lionel Trilling
According to Encyclopedia Brittanica, in 1920 (the year Trilling turned 15) T.S. Eliot said in The Sacred Wood: "Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better."
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 29, 2010, 05:39:37 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 29, 2010, 03:45:16 PM
They're all excellent citations. This one is especially germane, considering Williams's imitations.

More:

What oft was thought but ne'er so well expressed.
- Alexander Pope, "An Essay on Man"

The Church-yard [Gray's Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard - Sfz] abounds with images which find a mirrour in every mind, and with sentiments to which every bosom returns an echo. The four stanzas beginning "Yet even these bones" are to me original: I have never seen the notions in any other place; yet he that reads them here persuades himself that he has always felt them.
- Dr. Samuel Johnson's "Life of Thomas Gray"

The best moments in reading are when you come across something - a thought, a feeling, a way of looking at things - which you had thought special and particular to you. Now here it is, set down by someone else, a person you have never met, someone even who is long dead. And it is as if a hand has come out and taken yours.
- Douglas Hector, in Alan Bennett's "The History Boys"

I'm sure there's some interesting material from Stravinsky, responding to complaints that he had copied Mozart in The Rake's Progress, but I have to dig it up.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 30, 2010, 03:15:43 AM
Quote from: Szykniej on December 29, 2010, 02:19:39 PM
I've been following this thread with interest. I don't own the Stars Wars soundtrack, but the discussion has prompted me to order this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61gpMBcrsRL._SS500_.jpg)

Because the pieces on this CD are arranged as performance compositions, are those who answered "no" t

Personally, I found it telling  that Williams didn't find any greater goal and unity in scoring the Star Wars films, while a Copeland felt he was adding a new dimension to another art form.


Next question-- Does the Star Wars Christmas Album count as  classical music?

http://www.starwars.com/vault/collecting/music/20081222.html (http://www.starwars.com/vault/collecting/music/20081222.html)
http://wonderfulwonderblog.blogspot.com/2006/11/christmas-in-stars.html (http://wonderfulwonderblog.blogspot.com/2006/11/christmas-in-stars.html)

(http://www.fullhalloween.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/the-star-wars-holiday-special-1978.jpeg)

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 30, 2010, 03:44:36 AM
Quote from: jowcol on December 30, 2010, 03:15:43 AM
Next question-- Does the Star Wars Christmas Album count as  classical music?

I'm not sure it counts as Christmas music.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Szykneij on December 30, 2010, 04:31:49 AM
Quote from: jowcol on December 30, 2010, 03:15:43 AM
Next question-- Does the Star Wars Christmas Album count as  classical music?

No, but this is an interesting bit of trivia from the liner notes:

However, the most trivia-worthy album liner note is the debut of a then 18-year-old Jon Bon Jovi, who ends up singing with a high school choir on "R2-D2 We Wish You A Merry Christmas." At the time the album was in production, Jon Bon Jovi , then known as John Bongiovi, swept floors and did odd jobs at the famous New York City recording studio Power Station, ran by Jon's cousin Tony Bongiovi. As Meco auditioned singers for Christmas in the Stars, Tony suggested Jon for one of the lead vocal parts, and the rest is caroling history. Soon after Jon's singing debut, he recorded his own demo at the Power Station which included a hit song called "Runaway." The single eventually led to a deal with Mercury in 1983.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 30, 2010, 05:23:09 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 30, 2010, 03:44:36 AM
I'm not sure it counts as Christmas music.

While Jedi watched Ewoks by night . . . .
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 30, 2010, 05:33:44 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 30, 2010, 05:23:09 AM
While Jedi watched Ewoks by night . . . .

The Little Drummer Droid -
"Come, they told me, pah [squeak squiggle squawk jangle jingle]"

"Yoda nodded . . . . "

"Jabba the Hut kept time. . . "
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 30, 2010, 05:38:37 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on December 30, 2010, 05:33:44 AM
"Jabba the Hut kept time. . . "

I shouldn't have thought that possible.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on December 30, 2010, 05:56:21 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 29, 2010, 05:05:36 PM
According to Encyclopedia Brittanica, in 1920 (the year Trilling turned 15) T.S. Eliot said in The Sacred Wood: "Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better."

I've found that quote, or similar sentiments attributed  to  a lot of different people.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 30, 2010, 05:58:15 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 30, 2010, 05:38:37 AM
I shouldn't have thought that possible.

Nobody else fit the music.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on December 30, 2010, 05:59:07 AM
Well, perhaps they've redesigned the costume to make it happen : )
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on January 27, 2011, 09:23:43 PM
I count it completely as classical music. Williams is one of my favorite movie composers along with Ennio Morricone, James Horner and Danny Elfman. I think Williams's style is quite Wagner/Richard Strauss stylish (and no, not just because of leitmotives). Btw, have you noticed some similarities between some of the musical motives between Wagner's works and Star Wars, let's say... Siegfried's motive compared to "Force theme" or "Main theme/Luke Skywalker's theme". And I always think of Siegmund and Sieglinde are similar to Luke and Leia (incest is pretty damn close with Luke and Leia, Leia even said she had always somehow known Luke was his brother). But it's not like incest hasn't been used in many other works...

edit: I am not implying that Williams is even close to Wagner's talent, my favorite composer goes way ahead of anyone. But it's not like Wagner "invented" leitmotive, even Mozart had used it in some context, it was just Wagner who really gave purpose to it and developed it to full mastery. John Williams's scores are not nearly as magnificently constructed as Wagner's dramas, but I wouldn't still call him lousy. But that's just my opinion. And IMO Williams is not stealing as much as he is doing homage...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Mirror Image on January 27, 2011, 09:31:34 PM
Quote from: Alberich on January 27, 2011, 09:23:43 PM
I count it completely as classical music. Williams is one of my favorite movie composers along with Ennio Morricone, James Horner and Danny Elfman. I think Williams's style is quite Wagner/Richard Strauss stylish (and no, not just because of leitmotives). Btw, have you noticed some similarities between some of the musical motives between Wagner's works and Star Wars, let's say... Siegfried's motive compared to "Force theme" or "Main theme/Luke Skywalker's theme". And I always think of Siegmund and Sieglinde are similar to Luke and Leia (incest is pretty damn close with Luke and Leia, Leia even said she had always somehow known Luke was his brother). But it's not like incest hasn't been used in many other works...

The only thing I can gather from this post, in my mind, is Star Wars + Wagner = one of the most outlandish comparisons I've ever read in my life. Williams is a lousy composer outside of film scores, but even within this very narrow medium he's still a hack in my opinion. He's probably one of the biggest rip-off artists I've witnessed. Poor Wagner and Elgar have suffered enough under the pen of John Williams. Thankfully, composing music for film at one point in history was about artistic statement, but sadly now it's merely a second-rate medium that has nothing to offer the serious minded classical listener.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on January 27, 2011, 09:44:59 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 27, 2011, 09:31:34 PM
The only thing I can gather from this post, in my mind, is Star Wars + Wagner = one of the most outlandish comparisons I've ever read in my life. Williams is a lousy composer outside of film scores, but even within this very narrow medium he's still a hack in my opinion. He's probably one of the biggest rip-off artists I've witnessed. Poor Wagner and Elgar have suffered enough under the pen of John Williams. Thankfully, composing music for film at one point in history was about artistic statement, but sadly now it's merely a second-rate medium that has nothing to offer the serious minded classical listener.

Such class.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 27, 2011, 09:55:09 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 27, 2011, 09:31:34 PM
The only thing I can gather from this post, in my mind, is Star Wars + Wagner = one of the most outlandish comparisons I've ever read in my life. Williams is a lousy composer outside of film scores, but even within this very narrow medium he's still a hack in my opinion. He's probably one of the biggest rip-off artists I've witnessed. Poor Wagner and Elgar have suffered enough under the pen of John Williams. Thankfully, composing music for film at one point in history was about artistic statement, but sadly now it's merely a second-rate medium that has nothing to offer the serious minded classical listener.
I disagree. But what I want to focus on in your post is your claim of plagerism. You've mentioned Elgar and Wagner. Many mention Holst. The fact is that while some of stuff is similar, they are not out and out 'ripping off', which means taking note for note the exact work that these other composers composed. A good example of what I am talking about is Puccini's Girl of the Golden West, where you can hear, note for note, the exact same melody (with no change) for a few bars/seconds in Phantom of the Opera (Andrew Llody Webber). I'd be interested to see if there are any such similar examples you can provide of Williams. Keep in mind that I think the bar (or prood) is for 'identical melodies' and not similar ideas. Perhaps you would disagree with this as well, which would explain much of the disagreement if so.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Mirror Image on January 27, 2011, 09:57:24 PM
Quote from: ukrneal on January 27, 2011, 09:55:09 PM
I disagree. But what I want to focus on in your post is your claim of plagerism. You've mentioned Elgar and Wagner. Many mention Holst. The fact is that while some of stuff is similar, they are not out and out 'ripping off', which means taking note for note the exact work that these other composers composed. A good example of what I am talking about is Puccini's Girl of the Golden West, where you can hear, note for note, the exact same melody (with no change) for a few bars/seconds in Phantom of the Opera (Andrew Llody Webber). I'd be interested to see if there are any such similar examples you can provide of Williams. Keep in mind that I think the bar (or prood) is for 'identical melodies' and not similar ideas. Perhaps you would disagree with this as well, which would explain much of the disagreement if so.

So I take you're an admirer of John Williams?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bulldog on January 27, 2011, 10:05:20 PM
Quote from: Alberich on January 27, 2011, 09:23:43 PM
I count it completely as classical music.

Well, it's soundtrack music for the silver screen, be it exceptional or poor.  To be honest, I don't have a high opinion of either the Star Wars film or its music.  My father-in-law and I took my kids to see the movie; both of us were looking forward to leaving the theatre.  Of course, my kids loved the film. 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on January 27, 2011, 10:11:32 PM
Well, I can say that at least prequels suck. Except Williams's music and few actors. I still don't think that by awknowledging Williams's genius it takes anything away from Wagner, who is the ultimate master for me.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Mirror Image on January 27, 2011, 10:15:58 PM
Quote from: Alberich on January 27, 2011, 10:11:32 PM
Well, I can say that at least prequels suck. Except Williams's music and few actors. I still don't think that by awknowledging Williams's genius it takes anything away from Wagner, who is the ultimate master for me.

Williams' genius? Are you kidding me? Okay, MI...calm down, take a deep breath.....okay.....I did not read this.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 27, 2011, 11:11:49 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 27, 2011, 09:57:24 PM
So I take you're an admirer of John Williams?
If you go back a few pages, you will see that unlike some here, I have no problem putting Williams in the same breath with Vaughan Williams, Stravinsky and many other well known composers. This has given some of you fits, I know. So, yes I do enjoy his music.

But I was trying to put that like/dislike to the side and see if there were in fact any moments of true plagerism, and not just similarities in style/sound. I think this can be objective (either he did it or not), so need not end in angry discourse. The subjective part of it would be how far one has to go to be considered a plagrist. I provided an example of another (even more hated composer) to illustrate what I meant. I am interested to see if there are such instances with Williams.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: MishaK on January 28, 2011, 06:42:17 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on January 27, 2011, 11:11:49 PM
But I was trying to put that like/dislike to the side and see if there were in fact any moments of true plagerism, and not just similarities in style/sound.

You mean plagiarism.

Perhaps not outright plagiarism, but unthinkable without the original. E.g.

Main theme of Indiana Jones = Strauss' Don Juan opening, simplified

Main theme from Jaws = Mussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain opening, drastically simplified

etc. etc.

Really, Williams' music is good solid workmanship, but original it is not at all. It is very derivative and a century behind its time. Without the models from Strauss, Wagner, Debussy, Stravinsky and others to look at, Williams wouldn't know what to put on the page. It suits the purpose well, but he's far from even being one of the more original film music writers like Rota, Morricone or Mancini.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on January 28, 2011, 06:48:50 AM
Quote from: Mensch on January 28, 2011, 06:42:17 AM
Really, Williams' music is good solid workmanship, but original it is not at all.

And for that reason, to 'equate' him with Stravinsky, Vaughan Williams, & al. is IMO terribly naïve.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on January 28, 2011, 07:07:47 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 28, 2011, 06:48:50 AM
And for that reason, to 'equate' him with Stravinsky, Vaughan Williams, & al. is IMO terribly naïve.

Quite so.  I don't have any trouble classifying Williams as boring, unimaginative, derivative, unoriginal classical music.  (A definition of classical music which requires it to be 'genius' is unworkable.)   But to equate John Williams with Stravinsky or Vaughan Williams strikes me as utterly absurd.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2011, 07:09:34 AM
Quote from: Mensch on January 28, 2011, 06:42:17 AM
You mean plagiarism.

Perhaps not outright plagiarism, but unthinkable without the original. E.g.

Main theme of Indiana Jones = Strauss' Don Juan opening, simplified

Main theme from Jaws = Mussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain opening, drastically simplified

etc. etc.

Really, Williams' music is good solid workmanship, but original it is not at all. It is very derivative and a centiry behind its time. Without the models from Strauss, Wagner, Debussy, Stravinsky and others to look at, Williams wouldn't know what to put on the page. It suits the purpose well, but he's far from even being one of the more original film music writers like Rota, Morricone or Mancini.
On the plagiarism (thanks for the spelling fix) - so he didn't steal outright. Great and minor composers alike have borrowed something from others and made them their own as I feel Williams has done. Anyway, I appreciate the examples. I am not familiar with Don Juan, and not sure if I have that or not, but will try to eventually compare that. I know Night on Bald Mountain well, but the comparison to Jaws never occurred to me, so I will have to listen to that again as well.

The rest is your opinion - one I do not share. The reason I do not is that the music has original and attractive melodies (even if there are similarities in style to other composers) and he has a style all his own that I find engages. But let's not go down that argument road - thanks again for the examples. 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Brahmsian on January 28, 2011, 07:12:22 AM
Quote from: Mensch on January 28, 2011, 06:42:17 AM
Main theme from Jaws = Mussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain opening, drastically simplified

Also heavily borrowed from Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring, "The Augurs of Spring"
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2011, 07:18:06 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 28, 2011, 07:12:22 AM
Also heavily borrowed from Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring, "The Augurs of Spring"
I'm sorry. Do you mean he used this in Jaws? If so, are you referring to the main theme?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Brahmsian on January 28, 2011, 07:20:27 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on January 28, 2011, 07:18:06 AM
I'm sorry. Do you mean he used this in Jaws? If so, are you referring to the main theme?

Yes, you can hear it in the climax of the main theme.  Or at least, I can.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: MishaK on January 28, 2011, 07:24:50 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 28, 2011, 07:20:27 AM
Yes, you can hear it in the climax of the main theme.  Or at least, I can.

Insofar as Stravinsky may have gotten the idea from Mussorgsky to beging with, same thing.  ;)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Mirror Image on January 28, 2011, 07:51:31 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on January 27, 2011, 11:11:49 PMSo, yes I do enjoy his music.

This was all I needed to know. As far as the part where you lump John Williams in with composers like Stravinsky, I'm going to have to disagree and just walk away from the conversation.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on January 28, 2011, 10:45:15 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 28, 2011, 07:07:47 AM
Quite so.  I don't have any trouble classifying Williams as boring, unimaginative, derivative, unoriginal classical music.  (A definition of classical music which requires it to be 'genius' is unworkable.)   But to equate John Williams with Stravinsky or Vaughan Williams strikes me as utterly absurd.

Not so absurd.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: lescamil on January 28, 2011, 10:14:27 PM
Here is my take on the issue: any music composed for the purposes of serving as the score for a film (or any other sort of commercial music), and only for this purpose, is not considered classical music. It doesn't matter what the style is, but it is the purpose. If the composer (or someone else, such as an arranger) orchestrates and edits the work into a performable suite, then it is now classical music (because it is intended for concert performance). You cannot perform untouched scores in a concert hall, so therefore it is not classical music. The idea of a work intended to be for concert performance in a formal setting serves as my personal qualification for a work to be called "classical music" (and yes, I realize that the term "classical music" is flawed, so I also call it "concert music").
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Florestan on January 29, 2011, 05:04:57 AM
Quote from: lescamil on January 28, 2011, 10:14:27 PM
The idea of a work intended to be for concert performance in a formal setting serves as my personal qualification for a work to be called "classical music"

This criterion disqualifies as "classical music" anything written prior to the advent of the formal setting of the concert hall --- Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert included.  ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: John Copeland on January 29, 2011, 09:05:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 27, 2011, 10:15:58 PM
Williams' genius? Are you kidding me? Okay, MI...calm down, take a deep breath.....okay.....I did not read this.

I didn't read it either.  However, I would rather listen to 10 fabulously scored soundtracks by John Williams than...Jazz.   :-\
Williams et al are doing what Verdi, Puccini et al did.  Writing for the common entertainment media of the day, applying music to stories.  I don't think Williams is a 'genius', but he's just as talented as many of the best known names of this musical tradition.
(Sorry about mentioning Jazz again MI... :-[ )
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on January 30, 2011, 08:55:02 AM
Quote from: lescamil on January 28, 2011, 10:14:27 PM
Here is my take on the issue: any music composed for the purposes of serving as the score for a film (or any other sort of commercial music), and only for this purpose, is not considered classical music. It doesn't matter what the style is, but it is the purpose. If the composer (or someone else, such as an arranger) orchestrates and edits the work into a performable suite, then it is now classical music (because it is intended for concert performance). You cannot perform untouched scores in a concert hall, so therefore it is not classical music. The idea of a work intended to be for concert performance in a formal setting serves as my personal qualification for a work to be called "classical music" (and yes, I realize that the term "classical music" is flawed, so I also call it "concert music").
Quote from: Florestan on January 29, 2011, 05:04:57 AM
This criterion disqualifies as "classical music" anything written prior to the advent of the formal setting of the concert hall --- Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert included.  ;D
That's the difficulty with this and most other "classification" discussions.  Not many of us who voted "yes" are seriously equating Mr. Williams' compositional mastery with that of Bach, Wagner, Stravinsky or the other commonly accepted Great Masters.  The concerns I and a few others have raised are with the entire classification system.  However useful these labels may be to academics or marketing executives, they become somewhat ridiculous when applied to real music, Williams' or any other.

For the record, I count the Star Wars soundtrack as good, enjoyable music.  I for one would find the movies much less enjoyable without the music.  And Mr. Williams is by no means without subtlety.  The Schindler's List score is a fine example of subtle underpinning that seldom draws serious attention to itself but deepens the already profound experience.  But as I've said, I've actually played suites from the Star Wars and Harry Potter soundtracks, so maybe I'm positively prejudiced. :D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on January 30, 2011, 02:15:23 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on January 30, 2011, 08:55:02 AM
For the record, I count the Star Wars soundtrack as good, enjoyable music.  I for one would find the movies much less enjoyable without the music.

With that, I have no particular quarrel.

Though some day I should watch a Star Wars movie with the sound off, and a Havergal Brian symphony playing as an alternative soundtrack . . . .
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on January 30, 2011, 02:33:33 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 30, 2011, 02:15:23 PM
With that, I have no particular quarrel.

Though some day I should watch a Star Wars movie with the sound off, and a Havergal Brian symphony playing as an alternative soundtrack . . . .

They're about the same length, aren't they?  ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Guido on January 30, 2011, 03:06:27 PM
I'm sure I have heard Williams mention the difference before - He said his film scores are different from his concert works because in the latter he has formal or structural concerns, whereas the former just use the harmonic and melodic language of classical to provide whatever background music is currently needed without any thought for larger scale structure.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Mirror Image on January 30, 2011, 03:21:25 PM
Quote from: John on January 29, 2011, 09:05:15 AM
I didn't read it either.  However, I would rather listen to 10 fabulously scored soundtracks by John Williams than...Jazz.   :-\
Williams et al are doing what Verdi, Puccini et al did.  Writing for the common entertainment media of the day, applying music to stories.  I don't think Williams is a 'genius', but he's just as talented as many of the best known names of this musical tradition.
(Sorry about mentioning Jazz again MI... :-[ )

It's quite alright, John. It doesn't matter to me that you don't like jazz. It's an acquired taste just like Varese or Brahms. It's all a matter of what you're exposed to and what you connect with.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on January 30, 2011, 04:59:12 PM
Quote from: John on January 29, 2011, 09:05:15 AM
I didn't read it either.  However, I would rather listen to 10 fabulously scored soundtracks by John Williams than...Jazz.   :-\


One of his best here, John. IMO.  It may be a nice bridge for you, or just a score you enjoy on its own.   

[asin]B00007BKUE[/asin]

Steven Spielberg veered from the futuristic sci-fi flirtations of A.I. and Minority Report with this brisk, stylish period take on the career of teen con-man extraordinaire Frank Abagnale (Leonardo DiCaprio) and his dogged G-man pursuer/de facto extended family member Carl Hanratty (Tom Hanks). As always, the director's musical collaborator is John Williams, and the scoring legend uses the occasion of their 20th collaboration as a rewarding musical journey back to the days when he was known as Johnny Williams, ambitious young pianist for Henry Mancini on such early jazz scores as Peter Gunn. Informed by a half-century of subsequent achievement, Williams's return to the jazz idiom of his youth yields a smart, nervous score that evokes more than mere nostalgia. But with Dan Higgins's moody sax often leading the way, the veteran composer's work here seems more evocative reinvention than revisitation, yet another tribute to his uncanny ability to make any idiom his own. A handful of pop standards (including Sinatra's "Come Fly with Me," Getz and Gilberto's "Girl from Ipanema," "The Christmas Song" by Nat "King" Cole) deftly color both period and plot, but, as always, it's Williams who provides Spielberg's masterful imagery with its musical life's blood. --Jerry McCulley
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: RJR on February 02, 2011, 03:18:11 PM
Nothing that John Williams has composed can be compared to classical music. When the new concert hall was opened in Los Angeles a few years back John Williams was commissioned to compose the commemorative piece. The work of Bernard Herrmann that was played just after, or before it, (I can't recall) was a thousand times better.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on February 02, 2011, 05:43:30 PM
Quote from: RJR on February 02, 2011, 03:18:11 PM
Nothing that John Williams has composed can be compared to classical music. When the new concert hall was opened in Los Angeles a few years back John Williams was commissioned to compose the commemorative piece. The work of Bernard Herrmann that was played just after, or before it, (I can't recall) was a thousand times better.

Well, that was Herrmann...like throwing one of LvB's contempoaries against his 9th.   >:D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on March 10, 2011, 05:43:25 PM
Quote from: RJR on February 02, 2011, 03:18:11 PM
Nothing that John Williams has composed can be compared to classical music. When the new concert hall was opened in Los Angeles a few years back John Williams was commissioned to compose the commemorative piece. The work of Bernard Herrmann that was played just after, or before it, (I can't recall) was a thousand times better.
Sooooo, can the compositions of Bernard Herrmann be compared to classical music? :D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on March 11, 2011, 08:46:53 AM
Quote from: toucan on March 10, 2011, 10:15:47 PM
If Star Wars counts as classical music then I propose we find another term to categorize the music of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven et alii.
Some of us are working on it.  Success is expected hourly. ;D

Seriously, the moment we start to base categories on qualitative judgments is the beginning of tyranny.  One man's meat is another man's poison, and one listener's Bach another's Britney.  I would rather admit that all categories are subjective than submit to that kind of taste dictatorship.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: RJR on March 23, 2011, 10:39:39 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on March 10, 2011, 05:43:25 PM
Sooooo, can the compositions of Bernard Herrmann be compared to classical music? :D
Go to Wikipedia and read up on Bernard Herrmann's musical training and decide for yourself.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidRoss on March 23, 2011, 12:41:32 PM
Quote from: Bogey on January 30, 2011, 04:59:12 PM
[asin]B00007BKUE[/asin]

"Williams's return to the jazz idiom of his youth yields a smart, nervous score that evokes more than mere nostalgia." --Jerry McCulley
I recall liking that score very much, Bill. Might be worth viewing the film again just to hear it.  8)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on March 23, 2011, 01:35:26 PM
Quote from: RJR on March 23, 2011, 10:39:39 AM
Go to Wikipedia and read up on Bernard Herrmann's musical training and decide for yourself.
I don't have to.  I've seen The Man Who Knew Too Much with its climactic concert scene, music by one B. Herrmann. :) So what about John Williams' training?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on March 24, 2011, 09:25:35 AM
This thread is a prime example of why I am fed up with discussion forums. 99% of this thread has no relevance to me. Ever since I saw the first movies by Spielberg and Lucas some 30 years ago scored by John Williams I have loved the music for what it is and I have recognized the huge added value to the movies. Someone calls the music junk. To me that is an absolutely meaningless statement that contradicts all of my experiences with the music. Someone questions John Williams' training. Again, totally meaningless to me. Yoda's Theme sounds fantastic to my ears, no matter how well or badly the composer is trained.

Debating with strangers online is mostly total waste of time. I am much happier when I concentrate on the things important to me. (this week I have been making computer music. It is fun and makes me feel good). All of you can call the Star Wars music whatever you want. Don't expect me to care.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on March 24, 2011, 10:31:17 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 24, 2011, 09:25:35 AM
99% of this thread has no relevance to me.

So read other threads.

</hand-holding>
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on March 24, 2011, 10:48:57 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 24, 2011, 09:25:35 AM
This thread is a prime example of why I am fed up with discussion forums. 99% of this thread has no relevance to me. Ever since I saw the first movies by Spielberg and Lucas some 30 years ago scored by John Williams I have loved the music for what it is and I have recognized the huge added value to the movies. Someone calls the music junk. To me that is an absolutely meaningless statement that contradicts all of my experiences with the music. Someone questions John Williams' training. Again, totally meaningless to me. Yoda's Theme sounds fantastic to my ears, no matter how well or badly the composer is trained.

Debating with strangers online is mostly total waste of time. I am much happier when I concentrate on the things important to me. (this week I have been making computer music. It is fun and makes me feel good). All of you can call the Star Wars music whatever you want. Don't expect me to care.

Personally, I thought the part where research was undertaken to show how Williams and other composers viewed writing film scores to be educational and constructive, but you are wise to realize the relative worth of others opinions vis a vis your personal experience listening to music. 

If you are happier making computer music, go for it!  Far more blessed in my book to create something rather than tear something else apart...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on March 24, 2011, 11:49:28 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 24, 2011, 09:25:35 AM
Don't expect me to care.

I'm lost here.  Did someone here claim to be discussing this for your benefit?   :D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on March 24, 2011, 11:53:23 AM
There's a character in White Noise, one of whose recurring pet phrases is, "It's obvious!"
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Florestan on March 24, 2011, 11:54:44 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on March 24, 2011, 09:25:35 AM
Debating with strangers online is mostly total waste of time.

Might very well be. But boy, there's so much fun to it. OTOH, it helps enormously, in that one learns first hand "the infinite diversity of the human nature" (as Wilhelm von Humboldt very aptly put it two centuries ago).

And besides, if one is open enough, one can always (1) learn new things and (2) make new friends --- and these two things alone make the whole experience worthwile.


Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on March 24, 2011, 12:08:04 PM
If by debating, Poju, you mean an impenetrable 'exchange' of opposing opinion, no argument, it must be one of the most pointless ways to pass one's time.  But to take debating to mean the exchange of ideas, in which process one considers anew one's own ideas . . . highly worthwhile, indeed.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on March 24, 2011, 01:13:03 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on March 10, 2011, 05:43:25 PM
Sooooo, can the compositions of Bernard Herrmann be compared to classical music? :D
Quote from: jochanaan on March 23, 2011, 01:35:26 PM
I don't have to.  I've seen The Man Who Knew Too Much with its climactic concert scene, music by one B. Herrmann. :) So what about John Williams' training?
It would appear that the point I was trying to make with those two posts got lost in the shuffle.  I don't know whether I was being too obscure or too subtle, but...

Anyway, I actually checked Wikipedia before posting the last.  It happens that John Williams studied composition with the highly respected Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco, a man whose credentials as a "classical composer" cannot be doubted.  So, 71dB, I was in no way "questioning" Mr. Williams' training; just the opposite, in fact!  His training is as "classical" and valid as that of any other composer.  To make a distinction between him and Bernard Herrmann on "classical composer" status, as a previous poster did, seems downright silly; they both are known mostly for their film work but have written concert music as well.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on March 25, 2011, 02:49:19 AM
Quote from: Apollon on March 24, 2011, 11:53:23 AM
There's a character in White Noise, one of whose recurring pet phrases is, "It's obvious!"

I know this is a tangent, but that is an excellent novel...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: vandermolen on April 12, 2011, 10:52:32 PM
The 'March of the Ewoks' (Star Wars: Return of the Jedi) bears a remarkable similarity to Prokofiev's  March from 'The Love of Three Oranges'.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: eyeresist on April 13, 2011, 01:19:22 AM
I'd say it bears a strong family resemblance to Prok's marches, but the themes are original. That said, much of Williams's music is hugely indebted to Prokofiev, and Holst's Planets - when you're given three weeks to write an hour-plus of symphonic music, you take inspiration where you can get it. And I still maintain that, if the Star Wars theme doesn't give you a thrill, there's something wrong with you.

BTW, Herrmann did not write the climactic music for The Man Who Knew Too Much - that was Arthur Benjamin's Stormcloud Cantata in both versions of the film, second version tarted up a little for large ensemble. For the remake, Hitch offered Herrmann the chance to write an original cantata, but Herrmann thought he couldn't (or in this case didn't need to) outdo Benjamin. He did, however, appear in the film as the conductor.

It's a very exciting scene!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on April 13, 2011, 04:50:36 AM
It's too long since last I saw The Man Who Knew Too Much.

(Though I did recently watch "The Bird Who Knew Too Much," an episode of The Avengers.)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 14, 2011, 01:35:49 AM
Not to mention Imperial march's clear homage to Chopin's marche funébre in his second piano sonata.

http://www.trell.org/wagner/starwars.html
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidW on April 14, 2011, 05:11:04 PM
Ives was a heavy borrower but his music is strikingly original.

While Williams borrows his Star Wars scores are memorable, unique and known and cherished by just about everyone. :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: eyeresist on April 14, 2011, 06:21:21 PM
Yes, Williams's Late Romantic borrowings are obvious in his orchestral settings, but the actual thematic material is original, often striking and memorable (I don't even need to give examples, do I?), and his technique is impeccable.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 14, 2011, 09:31:11 PM
Homage and outright theft/borrowing are different matters. Otherwise string melody in final movement of Brahms's first would be stealing from Beethoven's 9th.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Lethevich on April 14, 2011, 11:08:35 PM
Ah nice, Brahms's decade long grappling with the post Beethoven symphony is no different from a deadline-chasing composer borrowing ideas - it's all an hommage...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on April 15, 2011, 06:40:56 AM
[Classical music forum]
"Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?"

[DSLR forum]
"Can a digital compact camera take pictures?"

[Linux forum]
"Is Windows an operation system?]

[42]
"Is Biggus Dickus' dick bigger than Donald Ducks big dick?"
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on April 15, 2011, 07:22:32 AM
Battling Shostakoviches
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Szykneij on April 15, 2011, 10:07:22 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 15, 2011, 07:22:32 AM
Battling Shostakoviches

Tapio's wins because of the cool hat.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on April 15, 2011, 10:13:52 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 15, 2011, 07:22:32 AM
Battling Shostakoviches

The "railroad engineer on holiday" Shostakovich clearly wins.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Grazioso on April 15, 2011, 10:16:04 AM
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 15, 2011, 06:40:56 AM
"Is Biggus Dickus' dick bigger than Donald Ducks big dick?"

http://www.youtube.com/v/2K8_jgiNqUc
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on April 16, 2011, 10:31:28 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 15, 2011, 07:22:32 AMBattling Shostakoviches

Come on, Signore Barone Scarpia, to my knowledge there are only two active Shostakoviches here. We'd even need thousands more to weigh up the real Shostakoviches genious :)

Quote from: Grazioso on April 15, 2011, 10:13:52 AMThe "railroad engineer on holiday" Shostakovich clearly wins.

Yes, it's funny, old man, heavy glasses and a funny hat. I also like the nervous Shosti very much (admittedly the following picture has a lot of concern and tragedy, too):

(http://www.communitymusicworks.org/images/shostakovich.jpg)

Thread duty. I think I may have mentioned before: IMO Williams was pretty much influenced by Shostakovich. Darth Vaders theme is from the theme in Shosta Sym.1/2.mvmt, and when I listen to Shostakovich #11 I think this pretty much sounds like a Williams' starship battle, for instance the beginning of Mvmt. 4 (The Tocsin)...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on April 20, 2011, 05:48:49 AM
I love that spot :)

http://www.youtube.com/v/R55e-uHQna0
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 20, 2011, 05:56:16 AM
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 20, 2011, 05:48:49 AM
I love that spot :)

http://www.youtube.com/v/R55e-uHQna0
Never fails to crack me up...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on April 22, 2011, 04:12:02 AM
Quote from: toucan on April 21, 2011, 11:07:02 PM
In a serious site this talk just wouldn't have occured. John Williams writes music for the popular blockbusters of Steven Spieldberg, for crying out loud. And to ask if it counts as classical music is just as preposterous as asking if a suburban shopping center in places like Kansas or Iowa counts as a Rare Book Shop.

Next thing you know people will ask if the novels of Michael Crichton deserve to be placed on a foot of equality with the plays of William Shakespeare - and then answer: yes!  ::)

Maybe you can find a serious site to frequent, then.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Sandra on April 22, 2011, 07:55:24 AM
The music is enjoyable, some of it even has development. But it just wasn't designed to satisfy a listener with ears ready for Shostakovich or Sibelius, Bartok or Hindemith. Just the fact that it was written for a movie tells us that the content is limited to images and association. Don't expect something like the Symphony of Psalms or anything.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on April 22, 2011, 08:05:25 AM
Quote from: Sandra on April 22, 2011, 07:55:24 AM
The music is enjoyable, some of it even has development. But it just wasn't designed to satisfy a listener with ears ready for Shostakovich or Sibelius, Bartok or Hindemith. Just the fact that it was written for a movie tells us that the content is limited to images and association. Don't expect something like the Symphony of Psalms or anything.

That seems like really weak reasoning with the answer already suspected before the end.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on April 22, 2011, 09:33:25 AM
Quote from: toucan on April 21, 2011, 11:07:02 PM
In a serious site this talk just wouldn't have occured. John Williams writes music for the popular blockbusters of Steven Spieldberg, for crying out loud. And to ask if it counts as classical music is just as preposterous as asking if a suburban shopping center in places like Kansas or Iowa counts as a Rare Book Shop.

Next thing you know people will ask if the novels of Michael Crichton deserve to be placed on a foot of equality with the plays of William Shakespeare - and then answer: yes!  ::)
Your premise shows how little you know about academic studies.  Everything is fair game.  Just recently a University of Colorado professor brought out The Anthology of Rap (http://adamfbradley.com/rap.php), a serious academic anthology of this most earthy of popular art forms.

There are also Rare Book Shops in some suburban shopping malls. :)

And Michael Crichton is a fine popular writer! ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on April 22, 2011, 11:25:58 AM
Quote from: toucan on April 22, 2011, 10:51:19 AM
As a matter of fact I know more about Academic studies than you do. After graduating Summa Cum Laude I acquired three MA's (English & French Literature + European History), and earned a Ph.D from two top 10 Universities that I will not name for reasons of privacy. That an academic would acquire a rap anthology is irrelevant to this conversation; if that Academic, however, claims Rap counts as Classical Music then that Academic would only remind us that there is much incompetence in the schools, and much disingenuousness as well. Nor is it relevant whether Crishton is or is not a fine writer; what is relevant is that he is indeed a popular, not a classic, writer and no one who wants to be respected where respect matters would commit such a preposterous thing as include him in the same group as Jane Austen or Thomas Hardy or James Joyce. As for Rare Book Stores in a commercial mall, well, I for one have never seen any. And before the age of internet sales I travelled a lot for books and records: to me, always a better holiday than beaches or gambling or cruises or what have you. But I would not think much of the business sense of a rare book dealer who'd rent a shop next to stores like Gap or Hot Topic as that is just not where he is likely to get sufficient business to survive in the Book trade. And if you are still insistent in counting John Williams as classical music you just might as well count Liberace as Classical music as Star Wars is closer to that kind of popular enternaiment, than to the great composers Williams has plagiarized.

My, my 3 MAs and 2 PhDs, and your arguments still do not rise far above "Is not!  Is too!  Is not! Is too!"  Maybe another PhD or two will help!   ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on April 22, 2011, 06:23:13 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 22, 2011, 11:25:58 AM
. . .   Maybe another PhD or two will help!

I am not sanguine ...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on April 22, 2011, 08:15:39 PM
And one wonders why toucan hesitates to name the universities.  As for me, my Bachelor's in Music Education is from Mid-America Nazarene University, and they would not hesitate to claim me as an alumnus if you asked them. :)

But here is the real difficulty as I see it:  Most of us probably recognize that the very term "classical music" is both inaccurate and insufficient.  Obviously it cannot refer only to music by Dead Masters, since many living musicians write music that uses forms similar to those from the past (although the language and style may differ greatly).  But some here seem to think that "classical music" is in an entirely different genus than "popular" or other non-classical musics.  If we begin to accept that certain composers for film (not necessarily Mr. Williams) have written music (for film or not) that deserves as much admiration, respect and even love as that of other accepted "Classical Composers," then it calls their very definitions into question.  And we all know how that can threaten one's sense of personhood. :o :-\

(Am I alone in noticing that, in general, the professional or semipro musicians among us, such as myself, are mostly less resistant to such definition-changing?  We've played, had to play in many cases, all kinds of musics and have had to face the challenges that a film score can pose. :))
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Philoctetes on April 22, 2011, 11:08:59 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on April 22, 2011, 08:15:39 PM
(Am I alone in noticing that, in general, the professional or semipro musicians among us, such as myself, are mostly less resistant to such definition-changing?  We've played, had to play in many cases, all kinds of musics and have had to face the challenges that a film score can pose. :))

I completely reject this seemingly self-serving argument.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Florestan on April 23, 2011, 12:44:25 AM
Quote from: toucan on April 22, 2011, 10:51:19 AM
there is much incompetence in the schools, and much disingenuousness as well.

Quote from: toucan on April 22, 2011, 10:51:19 AM
After graduating Summa Cum Laude I acquired three MA's (English & French Literature + European History), and earned a Ph.D from two top 10 Universities that I will not name for reasons of privacy.

(http://elidourado.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/slippery.png)




Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on April 23, 2011, 05:19:23 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on April 22, 2011, 08:15:39 PM
And one wonders why toucan hesitates to name the universities.  As for me, my Bachelor's in Music Education is from Mid-America Nazarene University, and they would not hesitate to claim me as an alumnus if you asked them. :)

Probably those universities that who graduated toucan have a restraining order preventing him from disclosing it.   0:)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidW on April 23, 2011, 07:27:00 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 23, 2011, 05:19:23 AM
Probably those universities that who graduated toucan have a restraining order preventing him from disclosing it.   0:)

Even the University of Phoenix is embarrassed by him. :'(
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: eyeresist on April 24, 2011, 12:11:02 AM
I think there is some matter of confusion of quality with kind. In the matter of quality, few of Williams's defenders would attempt to rank him with the three Bs. They merely point out that Williams writes music, often interesting and worth hearing, from the classical tradition. But to his detractors, this is irrelevant - their major point is that he writes in a disreputable genre. The fact that canonical composers have contributed a substantial amount of film music is ignored, as is the kinship of film music to other kinds of functional music (ballet, church, ceremonial, even opera). I can't help think that this furious fight against film music is the product of a very fragile ego, that cannot bear to have the borders of its "elite" realm shifted or even brought into question.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Szykneij on April 24, 2011, 03:36:16 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on April 24, 2011, 12:11:02 AM
I think there is some matter of confusion of quality with kind. In the matter of quality, few of Williams's defenders would attempt to rank him with the three Bs. They merely point out that Williams writes music, often interesting and worth hearing, from the classical tradition. But to his detractors, this is irrelevant - their major point is that he writes in a disreputable genre. The fact that canonical composers have contributed a substantial amount of film music is ignored, as is the kinship of film music to other kinds of functional music (ballet, church, ceremonial, even opera). I can't help think that this furious fight against film music is the product of a very fragile ego, that cannot bear to have the borders of its "elite" realm shifted or even brought into question.

Excellent post! After 63 pages and 622 posts, many by posters who never bothered to read the thread from the beginning and kept reviving and then beating again the same dead horse, you've summed things up nicely. I doubt anyone would argue the fact that Williams writes in the classical tradition. Does that count as classical music? Who cares.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scarpia on April 24, 2011, 04:55:53 PM
Quote from: Szykneij on April 24, 2011, 03:36:16 PM
Excellent post! After 63 pages and 622 posts, many by posters who never bothered to read the thread from the beginning and kept reviving and then beating again the same dead horse, you've summed things up nicely. I doubt anyone would argue the fact that Williams writes in the classical tradition. Does that count as classical music? Who cares.

In 63 pages and 622 posts, that point was made numerous times (maybe even by me, I don't recall).  This thread is characterized by an automaton that repeats the same things over and over and various "Don Quixotes" who come in to take a run at the windmill then leave the field.  Very repetitive.

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 24, 2011, 06:35:00 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 24, 2011, 04:55:53 PM
In 63 pages and 622 posts, that point was made numerous times (maybe even by me, I don't recall).  This thread is characterized by an automaton that repeats the same things over and over and various "Don Quixotes" who come in to take a run at the windmill then leave the field.  Very repetitive.

If this thread were truly a piece of classical music, someone would have simply inserted a pair of repeat marks, or, as Chopin did in one of his mazurkas, a da capo al segno senza fine.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: DavidW on April 24, 2011, 06:38:31 PM
If this was minimalism, the variations would be slightly different and in another 70 pages we would find ourselves talking about something completely different such as pancakes vs waffles. :D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 24, 2011, 06:50:34 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 24, 2011, 06:38:31 PM
If this was minimalism, the variations would be slightly different and in another 70 pages we would find ourselves talking about something completely different such as pancakes vs waffles. :D

Oh. I thought that was what we were talking about.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on April 25, 2011, 02:06:13 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on April 24, 2011, 12:11:02 AM
I think there is some matter of confusion of quality with kind. In the matter of quality, few of Williams's defenders would attempt to rank him with the three Bs. They merely point out that Williams writes music, often interesting and worth hearing, from the classical tradition. But to his detractors, this is irrelevant - their major point is that he writes in a disreputable genre. The fact that canonical composers have contributed a substantial amount of film music is ignored, as is the kinship of film music to other kinds of functional music (ballet, church, ceremonial, even opera). I can't help think that this furious fight against film music is the product of a very fragile ego, that cannot bear to have the borders of its "elite" realm shifted or even brought into question.

Totally agreed! The bold part is exactly how I feel about this thread.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jowcol on April 25, 2011, 02:14:13 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 24, 2011, 04:55:53 PM
In 63 pages and 622 posts, that point was made numerous times (maybe even by me, I don't recall).  This thread is characterized by an automaton that repeats the same things over and over and various "Don Quixotes" who come in to take a run at the windmill then leave the field.  Very repetitive.

Interesting that you mentioned the term "automaton" as I can't help but thinking that this is a Turing test.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 25, 2011, 04:06:18 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on April 24, 2011, 12:11:02 AM
I can't help think that this furious fight against film music is the product of a very fragile ego, that cannot bear to have the borders of its "elite" realm shifted or even brought into question.

Well, maybe. But still that's bascially an ad hominem argument.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: karlhenning on April 25, 2011, 05:00:06 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 25, 2011, 04:06:18 AM
Well, maybe. But still that's basically an ad hominem argument.

And:

Quote from: 71 dB on April 25, 2011, 02:06:13 AM
Totally agreed! The bold part is exactly how I feel about this thread.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: eyeresist on April 26, 2011, 02:07:31 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 25, 2011, 04:06:18 AM
Well, maybe. But still that's bascially an ad hominem argument.
It was an observation. My argument was the previous part of the post.

I have never eaten waffles.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 26, 2011, 03:57:29 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on April 26, 2011, 02:07:31 AM
It was an observation. My argument was the previous part of the post.

Then it was an ad hominem observation.   ::)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on May 08, 2011, 08:17:22 PM
If I'd say "this is classical mubeautiful (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwu5Oda5E1E)" - would I have to leave this forum?  >:D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: eyeresist on May 08, 2011, 09:02:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJEBcXIqNp0

Crest of the Stars Opening Theme: The full version isn't on YouTube.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgssPdtjzSA

Lunar Legend Tsukihime - Wounds: The lovely, characterful violin part comes in about halfway.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on June 02, 2014, 10:05:46 AM
Digging up this thread. I think one of the most innovative compositions in Williams's career is Anakin's theme from Phantom menace ost. The way he subtly manages to put part of imperial march in there without it sounding forced... it sends shivers down my spine.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: EigenUser on June 02, 2014, 10:14:05 AM
Quote from: Alberich on June 02, 2014, 10:05:46 AM
Digging up this thread. I think one of the most innovative compositions in Williams's career is Anakin's theme from Phantom menace ost. The way he subtly manages to put part of imperial march in there without it sounding forced... it sends shivers down my spine.
Here you go:
(http://www.dmiblog.com/archives/Shovel%20ready.jpg)

Man, between the two of us we are really covering some ground! I haven't dug up threads in a while, but you've been on a roll. Thanks :).

As for the question posed in the title, I usually consider soundtracks to be classical if they are orchestral. That's just my opinion, though.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on June 02, 2014, 10:29:13 AM
Lol yeah, dunno why I've been looking so much to these old threads lately. Almost a year ago there was a period I hardly commented at all.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Ken B on June 02, 2014, 11:31:58 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on June 02, 2014, 10:14:05 AM
Here you go:
(http://www.dmiblog.com/archives/Shovel%20ready.jpg)


As for the question posed in the title, I usually consider soundtracks to be classical if they are orchestral. That's just my opinion, though.
They are classical if they are good. Otherwise they are "crossover."
;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: zamyrabyrd on June 06, 2014, 03:22:15 AM
Apparently, Star Wars was considered classical enough for classical ballet:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMMbdG6eB-8

My opinion is the movements and music here are a cultural mismatch.
Also film music such as this instance is mainly about effects, getting a rise out of the audience, so as music it is largely superficial.

ZB
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: bigshot on June 10, 2014, 04:54:55 PM
Actually, soundtracks are non-visual, non-verbal storytelling. As such, they have a lot in common with programmatic music.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 10, 2014, 05:06:49 PM
Quote from: bigshot on June 10, 2014, 04:54:55 PM
Actually, soundtracks are non-visual, non-verbal storytelling. As such, they have a lot in common with programmatic music.

They have notes, so they have a lot in common with programmatic music....

Quote from: zamyrabyrd on June 06, 2014, 03:22:15 AM
Apparently, Star Wars was considered classical enough for classical ballet:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMMbdG6eB-8

My opinion is the movements and music here are a cultural mismatch.
Also film music such as this instance is mainly about effects, getting a rise out of the audience, so as music it is largely superficial.

ZB

Mine too. It isn't a question of liking or disliking, it is simply that film music has a specific purpose, and when done right, it serves that purpose well. It helps tell the story of the film.

Programmatic music tells its own story, whatever that may be and however it is abused along the way. A crucial difference when it comes to definitions!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on June 15, 2014, 02:00:50 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 10, 2014, 05:06:49 PM
They have notes, so they have a lot in common with programmatic music....

Mine too. It isn't a question of liking or disliking, it is simply that film music has a specific purpose, and when done right, it serves that purpose well. It helps tell the story of the film.

Programmatic music tells its own story, whatever that may be and however it is abused along the way. A crucial difference when it comes to definitions!  :)

8)

Isn't that true of the Firebird and Rite of Spring too?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on June 17, 2014, 04:41:56 PM
Quote from: relm1 on June 15, 2014, 02:00:50 AM
Isn't that true of the Firebird and Rite of Spring too?
The difference between ballet and opera on the one hand, and "tone poems" and other "program" music on the other, is that ballet and opera, like film music, is by definition designed to mesh with or supplement the visual and dramatic elements, while tone poems etc. are designed to be as complete as possible on their own.  Vivaldi's The Seasons, for example, relies on easily-understood sound devices like the birdsongs in Spring, the thunder rolls in Summer, and the hunting calls in Autumn.  Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique, while it uses some more obscure techniques like the idée fixe, also uses some obvious thunder rolls and an axe-strike from the full orchestra.  (It must be said, though, that even in music without titles or obvious programs, many Romantic commentators read lots of things into Romantic music.  Clara Schumann, for example--I think it was she--called Brahms' Symphony #3 "A Forest Idyll" and sketched a program for it. :o )
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scion7 on July 08, 2014, 03:45:53 PM
Don't really think it counts as 'music' - ok, it's music, but it is 'orrible.  What a racket.  One of the more boring soundtracks out there.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on July 09, 2014, 02:09:06 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on July 08, 2014, 03:45:53 PM
Don't really think it counts as 'music' - ok, it's music, but it is 'orrible.  What a racket.  One of the more boring soundtracks out there.

Are you for real?  ::) One of the more boring soundtracks out there? Compared to what? Who can consider Yoda's theme horrible music? I'm stunned. Well, you thinking that isn't away from me I guess. Just stunned at some of the opinions people write online.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scion7 on July 09, 2014, 02:34:28 AM
Sorry, Sheldon - I just doesn't likes it.

At all.

It's the kind of simplistic drivel that gives very young people the wrong idea about orchestrated music, and that much harder to lead them to true creative genuine works by serious composers.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on July 09, 2014, 08:14:19 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on July 09, 2014, 02:34:28 AM
Sorry, Sheldon - I just doesn't likes it.

At all.

It's the kind of simplistic drivel that gives very young people the wrong idea about orchestrated music, and that much harder to lead them to true creative genuine works by serious composers.

Yes, it is "simplistic" because it's music for a movie full on other sounds. However, John Williams' movie music tend to be among the most complex and sophisticated so you should hate many other soundtracks even more, I do because some of them are just abyssmal. The primary purpose of movie music is to enhance the movie experience rather than make young people interested of Schoenberg. If it makes youngsters interested of classical music in general (and I belive it has done that to some degree) it's just a plus.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on July 15, 2014, 07:12:21 AM
I love Yoda's theme as well. It is so calming and it has much of nostalgia value to me. Star wars music in general has, in fact.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on July 19, 2014, 07:14:19 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on July 09, 2014, 08:14:19 AM
Yes, it is "simplistic" because it's music for a movie full on other sounds. However, John Williams' movie music tend to be among the most complex and sophisticated so you should hate many other soundtracks even more, I do because some of them are just abyssmal. The primary purpose of movie music is to enhance the movie experience rather than make young people interested of Schoenberg. If it makes youngsters interested of classical music in general (and I belive it has done that to some degree) it's just a plus.

This is for you Sheldon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyWR_6QNqm8
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: vandermolen on July 23, 2014, 06:47:50 AM
Star Wars actually 'borrowed' from classical music. In particular I noticed a thematic similarity between the March from Prokofiev's 'Love of Three Oranges' and 'March of the Ewoks' from Star Wars: 'Return of the Jedi'.  8)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on July 23, 2014, 07:54:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 23, 2014, 06:47:50 AM
Star Wars actually 'borrowed' from classical music. In particular I noticed a thematic similarity between the March from Prokofiev's 'Love of Three Oranges' and 'March of the Ewoks' from Star Wars: 'Return of the Jedi'.  8)

'Parade of the Ewoks' actually.

Does Prokofiev's 'Love of Three Oranges' count as classical music? Does classical music cease to count as classical music when you borrow it?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on July 23, 2014, 07:56:57 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on July 23, 2014, 07:54:00 AM
Does Prokofiev's 'Love of Three Oranges' count as classical music? Does classical music cease to count as classical music when you borrow it?

Today's black-&-white questions ;)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Rinaldo on July 23, 2014, 09:00:44 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on July 08, 2014, 03:45:53 PM
Don't really think it counts as 'music' - ok, it's music, but it is 'orrible.  What a racket.  One of the more boring soundtracks out there.

Ouch, I can understand somebody not liking the Star Wars soundtracks one bit but boring? With all those rousing themes running around like crazy?

Anyway, this music has been etched into my memory since I was a kid so I'm beyond biased, but recently I've listened to the soundtracks after maybe 10 or more years and even though my musical tastes have expanded / shifted immensely and a lot of stuff I've used to like doesn't do it for me anymore, the Original Trilogy is so full of joy and fun and wonder that still makes my heart soar. Sure, I'll never know how this music would've worked without the context of the movie experience but stuff like this

https://www.youtube.com/v/d3IIeNorhVU

https://www.youtube.com/v/L63In39n86c

makes my hair stand without having to imagine a spaceship getting chased through an asteroid field or somebody beating up his own father.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on July 23, 2014, 12:16:42 PM
I agree with you, Rinaldo.  This isn't just exceptional music, it is music that elevates the scene tremendously to the point it stands on its own without the scene.  This music is also very, very complex and I would argue virtuosically written.  Few people have studied this collective work as thoroughly as I have and I would be happy to explain why it is not the result of a charlatan composer nor as simplistic as it might seem during a cursory listen.  The innovation is really in how it uniquely combines every element of music at such consistently high quality with tremendous effectiveness.  It will stand the test of time beyond the films, I believe, and part of the reason for this in how well it is so representative of the various styles of the time (jazz, pop, classical fusion hybrid with a Ravelian skill of orchestration and a Wagnerian sense of pacing and drama).  Sort of like how the Beatles = 1960's British invasion.  That style really doesn't fit with 1970's dissolution or 1950's idealism but the transition because it influenced, challenged, and echoed the attitudes and experiences of its time and place so succinctly and influentially. 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on July 23, 2014, 04:09:48 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 23, 2014, 12:16:42 PM
...This music is also very, very complex and I would argue virtuosically written...
I concur.  For one thing, this is music that orchestras actually have to rehearse!  Very unlike, say, Howard Shore's Lord of the Rings score, which is much more simplistic. -- But it's by no means the only complex, beautiful, brilliant film score out there.  From Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky and Korngold's The Adventures of Robin Hood, to John Corigliano's Altered States and Philip Glass's Koyaanisqatsi and (I haven't seen too many movies in a while, so insert whatever brilliant score has been written in the last few years), there are lots of beauties.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Sammy on July 23, 2014, 07:38:00 PM
I voted no although I don't have a good reason.  I thought the movie sucked big-time and the music did nothing for me, just typical movie music. 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: amw on July 23, 2014, 07:54:37 PM
It's a soundtrack. It's not classical music if you listen to it while watching the film; it is classical music if you listen to it performed by a classical orchestra without the film. But "soundtrack" works pretty well as a genre I think.

I think it's kind of boring, but film composers are under a lot of pressure, usually having to produce the equivalent of a Mahler symphony worth of music in just a few weeks—they're not all going to be winners. Perhaps it has to be heard in context. I've never watched the films.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Ken B on July 23, 2014, 08:17:00 PM
Quote from: amw on July 23, 2014, 07:54:37 PM
I've never watched the films.
The first one is fun. Skip the rest.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on July 24, 2014, 01:15:56 AM
Quote from: Ken B on July 23, 2014, 08:17:00 PM
The first one is fun. Skip the rest.

Skip the rest? Well, some people just don't understand Star Wars and I don't understand such people, simple as that.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on July 24, 2014, 07:09:56 PM
Quote from: amw on July 23, 2014, 07:54:37 PM
It's a soundtrack. It's not classical music if you listen to it while watching the film; it is classical music if you listen to it performed by a classical orchestra without the film. But "soundtrack" works pretty well as a genre I think.
And yet, the music is the same...
Quote from: amw on July 23, 2014, 07:54:37 PM
I think it's kind of boring, but film composers are under a lot of pressure, usually having to produce the equivalent of a Mahler symphony worth of music in just a few weeks—they're not all going to be winners....
What's amazing is just how good some of that music is!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: amw on July 24, 2014, 07:14:58 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on July 24, 2014, 07:09:56 PM
And yet, the music is the same...
It's a cliché, but genre is performance.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: vandermolen on July 30, 2014, 10:44:21 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on July 23, 2014, 07:54:00 AM
'Parade of the Ewoks' actually.

Does Prokofiev's 'Love of Three Oranges' count as classical music? Does classical music cease to count as classical music when you borrow it?

Thanks. My answer would be yes and no to your questions.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on August 28, 2015, 03:16:58 AM
Quote from: Alberich on June 02, 2014, 10:05:46 AM
Digging up this thread. I think one of the most innovative compositions in Williams's career is Anakin's theme from Phantom menace ost. The way he subtly manages to put part of imperial march in there without it sounding forced... it sends shivers down my spine.

Referring to my earlier post: I actually think that Anakin's theme is in itself a clever major-key variation from Imperial March. John Williams's compositions clearly have some depth.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 30, 2015, 04:18:16 AM
Quote from: Alberich on August 28, 2015, 03:16:58 AM
Referring to my earlier post: I actually think that Anakin's theme is in itself a clever major-key variation from Imperial March. John Williams's compositions clearly have some depth.

Relatively speaking, so does a 1-foot deep swimming pool, in that a little child can drown in it.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jo498 on August 30, 2015, 05:13:06 AM
Quote from: amw on July 23, 2014, 07:54:37 PM
I think it's kind of boring, but film composers are under a lot of pressure, usually having to produce the equivalent of a Mahler symphony worth of music in just a few weeks—they're not all going to be winners. Perhaps it has to be heard in context. I've never watched the films.

Skip them. I never saw the newer ones;  I was a little too young (or my parents too strict) for the early 80s ones, saw them much later on TV/VCR when I was in my 20s in the 1990s and I'd go so far to state that the music is among the better aspects of them. Because it is well done and catchy.
Star Wars is probably something one is either a rabid fan of almost immediately or just cannot take seriously at all. And for merely ironic appreciation they are not hilarious enough...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Mirror Image on August 30, 2015, 07:21:44 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 30, 2015, 05:13:06 AMStar Wars is probably something....or just cannot take seriously at all.

Considering Star Wars is a work of fiction, it's not supposed to be taken seriously. Is Jurassic Park or The Terminator supposed to be taken seriously as well? Come on, just lighten up a little.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jo498 on August 30, 2015, 11:01:55 PM
It's about taking it seriously as a piece of fiction or art. I have no problem with obviously "light" comical artworks, say, Wodehouse or Chaplin, neither with entertainment. But what I recall from the first three movies is quite pretentious, cheesy stuff, frequently involuntarily comical.

Apparently, it was fairly original and spectacular in the visual effects in the late 1970s, but as I said I am too young for that and apparently was too old when I watched that stuff for the first time to become anything but faintly amused, among other things because they felt so obviously dated only 15 years or so after they had come out. And, unlike some of the 60s/70s Bond movies it is not sufficiently over-the-top and self-ironic to be funny either (although I am not quite sure about that, maybe it's just not my kind of humor).

Anyway, everybody can do as he pleases but I still cannot recommend amw to watch that stuff only because it is hugely popular or "iconic". And the other point was that the music is quite decent for a movie score and certainly not worse than the movies themselves (again, I have not seen the more recent ones and probably never will).
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Purusha on August 31, 2015, 03:31:18 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on July 24, 2014, 01:15:56 AM
Skip the rest? Well, some people just don't understand Star Wars and I don't understand such people, simple as that.

You don't have to, since trying to "understand" Star Wars is like trying to "understand" He-man. I.E., there's nothing really to understand, it is just people hanging on some childhood experience and thinking their nostalgia is synonymous with actual artistic criticism.

Also, the information you've been given is wrong, since the second one is quite obviously the "best".

As for John Williams, i voted no, mostly because his "serious" work doesn't measure up. I think he is a fine musician and i don't have any prejudice against him simply because he is a pop icon. He is an excellent melodist and a gifted orchestrator and i can certainly see why his music is popular but that has nothing to do with whether his works are fit to be ranked along side those of Bach, or Beethoven, which is what people mean when they ask whether he is a "classical" composer in the first place. They certainly aren't thinking about Salieri here, or other supposedly "classical" musicians one might well rank to be below Williams.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on August 31, 2015, 03:49:46 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 30, 2015, 11:01:55 PM
Apparently, it was fairly original and spectacular in the visual effects in the late 1970s, but as I said I am too young for that and apparently was too old when I watched that stuff for the first time to become anything but faintly amused, among other things because they felt so obviously dated only 15 years or so after they had come out.

I think faint amusement is reasonable, and arguably the intent of the endeavor.  With Star Wars (even with its flaws) Geo. Lucas did a public service which is perhaps little appreciated outside its immediate cultural context.

The signature movies of the 70s include titles like All the President's Men, The Enforcer, The Omen, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Dog Day Afternoon.  "Heavy Business" dominated the conception of movies.  Even "feel-good" offerings like Rocky and Saturday Night Fever had their obligatory Dark Corners.

With Star Wars, Hollywood rediscovered the idea that it is okay to go to see a movie, just for a good time.  We can spend 90 minutes without the social Angst!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on August 31, 2015, 08:05:00 AM
I am firmly in the camp that believes John Williams is a brilliant composer and the Star Wars series has a tremendous amount of consistently high quality in its music.  The movies range from fun to silly but I love their retelling of old serials and classic myth.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 31, 2015, 08:22:33 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 31, 2015, 03:49:46 AM
With Star Wars, Hollywood rediscovered the idea that it is okay to go to see a movie, just for a good time.  We can spend 90 minutes without the social Angst!

It also re-introduced the idea of the hero and the heroic battle (a concept that took such a beating during the Vietnam era, not only in Hollywood but in real life).

Sarge
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on August 31, 2015, 08:31:50 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 31, 2015, 08:22:33 AM
It also re-introduced the idea of the hero and the heroic battle (a concept that took such a beating during the Vietnam era, not only in Hollywood but in real life).

Sarge

Indeed!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: North Star on August 31, 2015, 08:48:15 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 31, 2015, 08:22:33 AM
It also re-introduced the idea of the hero and the heroic battle (a concept that took such a beating during the Vietnam era, not only in Hollywood but in real life).

Sarge
You mean to say that movies like Taxi Driver or The Godfather didn't keep the heroic ideas alive?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on August 31, 2015, 08:55:16 AM
You talkin' to me?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Mirror Image on August 31, 2015, 02:59:18 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 30, 2015, 11:01:55 PM
It's about taking it seriously as a piece of fiction or art. I have no problem with obviously "light" comical artworks, say, Wodehouse or Chaplin, neither with entertainment. But what I recall from the first three movies is quite pretentious, cheesy stuff, frequently involuntarily comical.

Apparently, it was fairly original and spectacular in the visual effects in the late 1970s, but as I said I am too young for that and apparently was too old when I watched that stuff for the first time to become anything but faintly amused, among other things because they felt so obviously dated only 15 years or so after they had come out. And, unlike some of the 60s/70s Bond movies it is not sufficiently over-the-top and self-ironic to be funny either (although I am not quite sure about that, maybe it's just not my kind of humor).

Anyway, everybody can do as he pleases but I still cannot recommend amw to watch that stuff only because it is hugely popular or "iconic". And the other point was that the music is quite decent for a movie score and certainly not worse than the movies themselves (again, I have not seen the more recent ones and probably never will).

But as I mentioned, the problem is you are taking it too seriously when its not meant to be taken as such. A work of art doesn't always have to be taken seriously to make an impression on the viewer/listener. For me, the intent of any Star Wars film is to have fun and be entertained. Not everything has to be a work of magnificence and deep emotional thought to get my attention. Sometimes when I watch a film, I don't want to think at all.

No one is forcing (no pun intended) to enjoy Star Wars and you can decry and bemoan the franchise all you want if that's what you want to do. My point is not all art contains depth and sometimes its just about the sparkling, shiny surface and being visually bombarded with special effects than something of real substance. Star Wars allows me to 'let my hair down' so to speak and enjoy something without being worried about whether it's groundbreaking or innovative. I'm entertained and that's all that matters.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jo498 on September 01, 2015, 12:02:42 AM
As said, I am not even entertained all that well, to be honest I was fairly disappointed and wondered what all the fuzz was about when I first watched Return of the Jedi.
Am I not also entitled to my taste? Should I refrain from dis-recommending because I am not fond of the stuff? I do not think so.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on September 01, 2015, 04:09:07 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 01, 2015, 12:02:42 AM
As said, I am not even entertained all that well, to be honest I was fairly disappointed and wondered what all the fuzz was about when I first watched Return of the Jedi.
Am I not also entitled to my taste? Should I refrain from dis-recommending because I am not fond of the stuff? I do not think so.

I thought the very first movie (now called episode IV) was the freshest and most inventive, partially because it didn't seem to take itself too seriously. With each successive film, it was like the next pressing of the olives and the resulting oil was thinner and less flavorful. There were a few new characters of interest like Yoda and Jabba the Hutt; otherwise, the films became increasingly heavy-handed and dull, and the first three seem to me totally negligible.

As for the initial question about the soundtrack, I shake my head sadly and answer "no."
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: The new erato on September 01, 2015, 04:11:44 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 01, 2015, 04:09:07 AM
I thought the very first movie (now called episode IV) was the freshest and most inventive, partially because it didn't seem to take itself too seriously. With each successive film, it was like the next pressing of the olives and the resulting oil was thinner and less flavorful. There were a few new characters of interest like Yoda and Jabba the Hutt; otherwise, the films became increasingly heavy-handed and dull, and the first three seem to me totally negligible.

As for the initial question about the soundtrack, I shake my head sadly and answer "no."
I can only add my agreement both on the flicks and about the soundtrack.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 01, 2015, 04:23:10 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 01, 2015, 04:09:07 AM
I thought the very first movie (now called episode IV) was the freshest and most inventive, partially because it didn't seem to take itself too seriously. With each successive film, it was like the next pressing of the olives and the resulting oil was thinner and less flavorful.

I think there is a sorry ambivalence in the (successful) lightness of tread in the first movie, and the fact that even then Lucas was planning a nine-movie "Epic";  that is too strong a temptation, perhaps, to take the thing Too Gravely.  Maybe the Indiana Jones project with Spielberg served as the "let's just have fun with it" pulp outlet, and Lucas was then drawn into seeing Star Wars as a sort of religion . . . .
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Ken B on September 01, 2015, 04:35:22 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 01, 2015, 12:02:42 AM
As said, I am not even entertained all that well, to be honest I was fairly disappointed and wondered what all the fuzz was about when I first watched Return of the Jedi.
Am I not also entitled to my taste? Should I refrain from dis-recommending because I am not fond of the stuff? I do not think so.
Nor am I. The first one was good. The rest, not so much, ranging from fair to awful.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on September 01, 2015, 04:39:21 AM
Quote from: The new erato on September 01, 2015, 04:11:44 AM
I can only add my agreement both on the flicks and about the soundtrack.

I'm pleased to see finally somebody is agreeing with me about something. (As in, how dare I say what seems to me as clear as the nose on my face about Donald Trump!)

I see I wrote here nearly five years ago (good God): "Regarding John Williams, you will not get me to admit any more than that he is a skillful purveyor of "effective" but highly commercialized background music for Hollywood blockbusters."

And there is plenty of film music that works well in the context of the film, but seems threadbare and undistinguished apart from it. A couple of years ago the NYPhil did a program of Italian film music including Nino Rota's theme for the ending circus parade from Fellini's 8 1/2. In context I love how that music works, but it seemed totally bankrupt played on its own.

In context I think Ennio Morricone's score for Elio Petri's Investigation of a Citizen above Suspicion is terrific too (John Simon called the score a masterpiece, and I think it a great film with Gian Maria Volonté giving the performance of a lifetime as a Scarpia-like villain). But heard on its own I wouldn't know.

But the Phil is now playing the scores to On the Waterfront and Godfather live, with the films projected in the concert hall, and I have to wonder if they genuinely consider this music "classical," or if they're just desperate for new audiences, or if the question matters very much anyway since I can avoid the whole thing and just slip in a DVD if so inclined . . . .
Title: Re: Does Pokeman soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 01, 2015, 04:52:27 AM
Pokeman and Final Fantasy get concerts devoted to their scores. The National S.O. just did a concert at Wolf Trap of Pokeman music. Does that qualify?  :o  :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 01, 2015, 05:09:54 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 01, 2015, 04:39:21 AM
I see I wrote here nearly five years ago (good God): "Regarding John Williams, you will not get me to admit any more than that he is a skillful purveyor of "effective" but highly commercialized background music for Hollywood blockbusters."

Agreed.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 01, 2015, 05:11:14 AM
Drat my over-swift snipping . . .

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 01, 2015, 04:39:21 AM
And there is plenty of film music that works well in the context of the film, but seems threadbare and undistinguished apart from it. A couple of years ago the NYPhil did a program of Italian film music including Nino Rota's theme for the ending circus parade from Fellini's 8 1/2. In context I love how that music works, but it seemed totally bankrupt played on its own.

Agreed, again.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on September 01, 2015, 05:16:35 AM
Would Imperial March count as "a variation on theme by Frederic Chopin?"  ;)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on September 01, 2015, 08:00:20 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 31, 2015, 08:05:00 AM
I am firmly in the camp that believes John Williams is a brilliant composer and the Star Wars series has a tremendous amount of consistently high quality in its music.  The movies range from fun to silly but I love their retelling of old serials and classic myth.
+1
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 01, 2015, 04:39:21 AMAnd there is plenty of film music that works well in the context of the film, but seems threadbare and undistinguished apart from it. . . .
There is plenty of music from operas that can be described similarly. :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jo498 on September 01, 2015, 10:06:13 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on September 01, 2015, 08:00:20 AM
+1There is plenty of music from operas that can be described similarly. :)

This may be true, but I have doubts. I cannot really think of any opera still (or again) in the repertoire that stays there *in spite* of the music because the plot/libretto are so great. Sure, there might be some operas where there is some kind of magical synergy that all elements together become much more than the sum of the parts.
One can certainly have reservations about the general musical quality of some operas. But if one starts to think why some baroque or early/mid 19th century belcanto operas are still given with some frequence, the main reason can hardly be the conceited or trite plots, often about myths or stories hardly anyone remembers today, in a language very few of us understand fluently... so it must be the music after all.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Mirror Image on September 01, 2015, 06:10:08 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 01, 2015, 12:02:42 AM
As said, I am not even entertained all that well, to be honest I was fairly disappointed and wondered what all the fuzz was about when I first watched Return of the Jedi.
Am I not also entitled to my taste? Should I refrain from dis-recommending because I am not fond of the stuff? I do not think so.

And as I said, no one is telling you have to like the films, all I'm saying is your approach, which seemed to be a "must seriously judge any work of art" type of attitude is a bit wrong-headed when I don't think anyone would take Star Wars seriously to begin with. You can tell people not to watch the films until your blue in the face and that's perfectly fine. Personally, the original trilogy is the way to go and they are fun films to watch despite what you say.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Rinaldo on September 01, 2015, 09:01:51 PM
I've always wondered what I'd think about the original trilogy if I didn't encounter it as a kid. But since I did, those movies are part of my DNA, including the music. I'm not much of a John Williams fan but some of his Star Wars moments move me tremendously.
Title: Re: Does Pokeman soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Purusha on September 01, 2015, 10:36:22 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 01, 2015, 04:52:27 AM
Pokeman and Final Fantasy get concerts devoted to their scores. The National S.O. just did a concert at Wolf Trap of Pokeman music. Does that qualify?  :o  :)

I'd say it qualifies more than anything by John Cage.  0:)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on September 02, 2015, 04:00:55 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 01, 2015, 06:10:08 PM
I don't think anyone would take Star Wars seriously to begin with.

Oh, how little you know...  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePa6VuXBgHQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePa6VuXBgHQ)

I am pretty serious business about Star Wars as well :P
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on September 02, 2015, 04:23:30 AM
It counts as classical music ripoff.  Why Korngold's heirs, among others, didn't sue the skin off of John Williams and 20th Century Fox is one of the great questions of the universe in this galaxy far far away...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 02, 2015, 04:31:19 AM
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on September 02, 2015, 04:23:30 AM
It counts as classical music ripoff.  Why Korngold's heirs, among others, didn't sue the skin off of John Williams and 20th Century Fox is one of the great questions of the universe in this galaxy far far away...

There's that, too.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on September 02, 2015, 04:44:21 AM
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on September 02, 2015, 04:23:30 AM
It counts as classical music ripoff.  Why Korngold's heirs, among others, didn't sue the skin off of John Williams and 20th Century Fox is one of the great questions of the universe in this galaxy far far away...

Interestingly, Williams mentioned that he tried to compose Star Wars in a manner of Richard Strauss.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 02, 2015, 04:45:52 AM
Quote from: Alberich on September 02, 2015, 04:44:21 AM
Interestingly, Williams mentioned that he tried to compose Star Wars in a manner of Richard Strauss.

I shouldn't much call that a success, then  ;)

j/k . . . as scoring for the movies, it is a notable success.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on September 02, 2015, 07:04:58 AM
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on September 02, 2015, 04:23:30 AM
It counts as classical music ripoff.  Why Korngold's heirs, among others, didn't sue the skin off of John Williams and 20th Century Fox is one of the great questions of the universe in this galaxy far far away...

The Korngold similarities are superficial.  Star Wars is much more original than people are giving it credit for aside from superficial touches like woodwind swooshes and swashbuckling. 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: North Star on September 02, 2015, 07:11:17 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 02, 2015, 07:04:58 AM
The Korngold similarities are superficial.  Star Wars is much more original than people are giving it credit for aside from superficial touches like woodwind swooshes and swashbuckling.

There certainly are superficial similarities.
https://www.youtube.com/v/V47enEvsafQ
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on September 02, 2015, 07:20:33 AM
Quote from: North Star on September 02, 2015, 07:11:17 AM
There certainly are superficial similarities.
https://www.youtube.com/v/V47enEvsafQ

Yes, that is the superficial similarity.  Find a parallel to anything like Imperial March (other than the march rhythm),  force theme, Yoda's theme, Boba Fett's theme, Jaba's theme, etc.  The harmonic treatment in JW is very sophisticated and is an amalgamation of his classical + pop background growing up in the 1940's.  So yes, you'll hear Prokofiev, Korngold, but also Benny Goodman, Bernard Herrmann (the anti-Korngold), and others of that era.  This is similar to all artists in that they are an amalgamation of the things they are exposed to and that resonated with them.  Like Mahler taking songs (or the funeral march of the fireman) from his neighborhood and incorporating them into his symphonies.  You see the same in Sibelius in that he took Tchaikovsky as a springboard to much more original material but rather than ignoring the Russian influence, he made it unique to him by incorporating the Finnish legends and speaking rhythms, etc.  One could say in a superficial way that Sibelius copied Tchaikovsky but that is a disservice to how unique and influential he was.  Same with John Williams and what is said about his stylistic link to Strauss, Elgar or Korngold.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Scion7 on September 02, 2015, 07:22:51 AM
Wow - that this piece of piffle has gone on for 32 pages on the forum is amazing.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on September 02, 2015, 08:01:40 AM
There is this interesting website which compared leitmotives from Ring to the motives in Star Wars, for ex. the main theme has certain similarities with Siegfried's theme. The pointed similarities with the plot elements are most likely a result of the fact that there is only relatively limited amount of completely original storylines and thus some similarities are bound to happen. The same probably applies to musical themes.

http://brebru.com/musicroom/musicians/wagner/starwars.html (http://brebru.com/musicroom/musicians/wagner/starwars.html)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on September 02, 2015, 09:00:07 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on September 02, 2015, 07:22:51 AM
Wow - that this piece of piffle has gone on for 32 pages on the forum is amazing.

Aahh, the irony of this post...nah too easy.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on September 02, 2015, 12:22:46 PM
Quote from: relm1 on September 02, 2015, 07:04:58 AM
The Korngold similarities are superficial.  Star Wars is much more original than people are giving it credit for aside from superficial touches like woodwind swooshes and swashbuckling.

Rather more than superficial imho - this very topic was recently brought up in the LA Times http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/la-et-cm-blurred-lines-classical-notebook-20150314-column.html
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on September 02, 2015, 01:16:57 PM
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on September 02, 2015, 12:22:46 PM
Rather more than superficial imho - this very topic was recently brought up in the LA Times http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/la-et-cm-blurred-lines-classical-notebook-20150314-column.html

Wow, terrible to use a photo of John Williams for that article.  Not very fair.  Is this true:

'Do we really want the courts telling us that we had no right to "Star Wars'" music? John Williams all but lifted the core idea of his soundtrack score from the Scherzo of Erich Korngold's Symphony in F-sharp Minor, written 25 years earlier. In music, lifting need not be plagiarizing; it can be elevating.'

This writer lacks credibility with a statement like that.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Ken B on September 02, 2015, 01:45:38 PM
Quote from: relm1 on September 02, 2015, 01:16:57 PM
Wow, terrible to use a photo of John Williams for that article.  Not very fair.  Is this true:

'Do we really want the courts telling us that we had no right to "Star Wars'" music? John Williams all but lifted the core idea of his soundtrack score from the Scherzo of Erich Korngold's Symphony in F-sharp Minor, written 25 years earlier. In music, lifting need not be plagiarizing; it can be elevating.'

This writer lacks credibility with a statement like that.
Well the thing is, nobody here is relying on his credibility. They are relying on their own ears. So the writer could be Hillary Palin and it wouldn't matter.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 02, 2015, 04:06:24 PM
Quote from: Ken B on September 02, 2015, 01:45:38 PM
Well the thing is, nobody here is relying on his credibility. They are relying on their own ears. So the writer could be Hillary Palin and it wouldn't matter.
Strange, he's usually accused of stealing from Holst. Who cares anyway - the music is brilliant.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 02, 2015, 04:21:32 PM


Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 02, 2015, 04:06:24 PM
Strange, he's usually accused of stealing from Holst.

You realize how weak that gambit is 8)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 02, 2015, 04:51:47 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 02, 2015, 04:21:32 PM

You realize how weak that gambit is 8)
In all honesty, if I gather up the names he's been accused of stealing from in this thread...well, there must be like over 20. And to make matters more confusing, it's the same piece! In any case, it seems strange to me that he invokes such strong negative passion. Even with those few composers I dislike, I wouldn't waste so much time talking about that.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 03, 2015, 03:25:38 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 02, 2015, 04:51:47 PM
In all honesty, if I gather up the names he's been accused of stealing from in this thread...well, there must be like over 20. And to make matters more confusing, it's the same piece! In any case, it seems strange to me that he invokes such strong negative passion. Even with those few composers I dislike, I wouldn't waste so much time talking about that.

I see your point, and understand your mild exaggeration.  I'll furnish examples later.

Not saying that will convince you one way or another, but it will illustrate.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Ken B on September 03, 2015, 04:40:31 AM
I think it's clear enough he "used" the Korngold, and made some modifications. I think the modifications make the music more appropriate for the movie.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 03, 2015, 04:41:44 AM
Quote from: Ken B on September 03, 2015, 04:40:31 AM
I think it's clear enough he "used" the Korngold, and made some modifications. I think the modifications make the music more appropriate for the movie.

And I suppose that was the thing to do, if he could not write his own  ;)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: amw on September 03, 2015, 04:48:30 AM
Quote from: Alberich on September 02, 2015, 04:44:21 AM
Interestingly, Williams mentioned that he tried to compose Star Wars in a manner of Richard Strauss.
From the bits of the soundtrack that are audible on the web (i.e. without the film), that definitely makes a lot of sense. The main theme is definitely 'in the manner of' Strauss, esp Don Juan (with the flatted 7ths by way of Korngold, he loved those) but of course rounded off into neat little periods, which Strauss would never have done as a regular four-bar rhythm would have bored him, and most likely us, to death. Then there are other bits that are 'in the manner of' Mahler perhaps, or Wagner, or The Planets, ominous bits 'in the manner of' Walton when he's pretending to be modern, jaunty bits 'in the manner of' Shostakovich's best agitprop. (Even a bit of the 1st symphony's opening stuffed into the 'Imperial March' >.>) I should say Williams is an above-average pastichist—certainly not in Rochberg's class, but slightly better than a musicologist.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 03, 2015, 04:53:43 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 03, 2015, 03:25:38 AM
I see your point, and understand your mild exaggeration.  I'll furnish examples later.

Not saying that will convince you one way or another, but it will illustrate.
Examples would be welcome, because it is otherwise a he-said, she-said and the conversation simply flounders around as it has at least in the most recent part of this thread.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 03, 2015, 05:05:38 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 03, 2015, 04:53:43 AM
Examples would be welcome, because it is otherwise a he-said, she-said and the conversation simply flounders around as it has at least in the most recent part of this thread.

Useful also, because you can then agree that my point is a matter of music, and not of mere passion   :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 03, 2015, 05:16:33 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 02, 2015, 04:06:24 PM
Strange, he's usually accused of stealing from Holst. Who cares anyway - the music is brilliant.

I agree with you, Neal. I think the score is great, a deliberate and brilliant throwback to the golden age of Hollywood. But it's also apparent he borrowed from many composers, and not only Korngold (Stravinsky, Walton, Holst, etc.). One of the fun things about the music is playing Spot the Composer while listening to it.

Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 03, 2015, 04:53:43 AM
Examples would be welcome...

Here's one from Korngold. Starts at 18:02 (a minute and a half into the Scherzo)

https://www.youtube.com/v/JEgrnh0yjaw


Sarge
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 03, 2015, 05:30:18 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 03, 2015, 05:16:33 AM
I agree with you, Neal. I think the score is great, a deliberate and brilliant throwback to the golden age of Hollywood. But it's also apparent he borrowed from many composers, and not only Korngold (Stravinsky, Walton, Holst, etc.). One of the fun things about the music is playing Spot the Composer while listening to it.

Here's one from Korngold. Starts at 18:02 (a minute and a half into the Scherzo)

https://www.youtube.com/v/JEgrnh0yjaw


Sarge
I do like that piece! But how would you characterize it? Is it stealing? Is it hommage? Do you think Williams transforms the ideas being claimed to have come from others? Does being similar to the style of past/other composers lessen the originality? And what is the degree of 'borrowing' one can do before it goes 'too far'? These aren't questions aimed at you per se, but I suspect that our answers would be a bit closer compared to those who are lesser fans (how else to say this nicely? :) ) of his music.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 03, 2015, 05:31:04 AM
Absolutely a matter of my opinion, and maybe no one else will agree with me . . . but (tangentially) an example where I feel Williams did work which is 75% excellent.

The big unison horn tune in Indiana J. and the Temple of Doom:  the first three phrases are strong, beautiful, rich in character, great contour.  And the fourth phrase is, meh.  And meh is a heckuva way to end, because that modulates all that came before.

I know, I know:  everyone else loves it.  Chalk it up to my personal musical eccentricity.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Rinaldo on September 03, 2015, 05:40:40 AM
Quote from: amw on September 03, 2015, 04:48:30 AMThe main theme is definitely 'in the manner of' Strauss, esp Don Juan (with the flatted 7ths by way of Korngold, he loved those) but of course rounded off into neat little periods, which Strauss would never have done as a regular four-bar rhythm would have bored him, and most likely us, to death.

Pastichist is a good word, flexible is another one. Williams had to tailor his music to what the director wanted / the movie needed. And that's where his undeniable craft shines the most, IMO. His segues and changes of pace and tone are mostly flawless and fit the images and cuts perfectly (not in the prequel trilogy, though, as the soundtrack was chopped and edited all over the place by Lucas / Ben Burtt). Anyway, that's where those 'neat little periods' come from - as an (orchestral) movie composer, you're confined in a way classical composers never have to bother with.

This is my favourite piece of Williams' Star Wars music (and also my favourite scene of the saga):

https://www.youtube.com/v/pE1nL4xFOfM

It's amazing to realize the music came afterwards. How the composer underscores the tension, then ramps it up with the wider shot and tracks Luke's anger, then encompasses the tragedy of it all, then switches gears as Vader falls and finally exhales along with Luke's realization he's becoming his father.. superior craftsmanship.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 03, 2015, 05:49:30 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on September 03, 2015, 05:40:40 AM
Pastichist is a good word, flexible is another one. Williams had to tailor his music to what the director wanted / the movie needed. And that's where his undeniable craft shines the most, IMO.

I should say, that is essentially the craft.  You are reinforcing a point which I have made various times ere now:  if we want to handicap the result with the considerations that the composer exercises control over neither the overall project (which is different from, not absolutely all, but let us say a solid majority of opera) nor over the timeframe of his doing the work, then I think that is fair and reasonable;  but it also means that comparing these film scores to classical music is something of a grapefruit-to-tangelos affair.

And, yes, my attitude would probably be different if I had heard any concert work by Williams which doesn't niff a bit even on ice.  Which is to say, even when he has the complete control which is the composer's preference, the result does not shine.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 03, 2015, 06:02:02 AM
You make the call, Neal:

Stravinsky:

https://www.youtube.com/v/LhBK9jUH_9k

Williams:

https://www.youtube.com/v/iISxAhvv3ts
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 03, 2015, 06:12:47 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 03, 2015, 06:02:02 AM
You make the call, Neal:

Stravinsky:

https://www.youtube.com/v/LhBK9jUH_9k

Williams:

https://www.youtube.com/v/iISxAhvv3ts

If you just listen to the first half-minute of each in immediate succession . . . note that even the key center is adopted directly.

A little less obviously egregious . . . Here, of course, the older piece begins softly, because it has time for a crescendo, where for Williams' purposes it needs to start out loud.

Note, again, he does not trouble to alter the key (rightly trusting in Holst's acumen).

Holst:

https://www.youtube.com/v/L0bcRCCg01I

Williams:

https://www.youtube.com/v/-bzWSJG93P8
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 03, 2015, 06:47:22 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 03, 2015, 06:02:02 AM
You make the call, Neal:

Stravinsky:

https://www.youtube.com/v/LhBK9jUH_9k

Williams:

https://www.youtube.com/v/iISxAhvv3ts
That depends on how you think this one stacks up...
https://www.youtube.com/v/HsTBd5ps5PU
Sure, they are quite similar, but I suspect if we thought a bit more, we could come up with even more examples like Holst's Saturn. it is not so uncommon an idea I think.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on September 03, 2015, 07:01:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 03, 2015, 06:12:47 AM
If you just listen to the first half-minute of each in immediate succession . . . note that even the key center is adopted directly.

A little less obviously egregious . . . Here, of course, the older piece begins softly, because it has time for a crescendo, where for Williams' purposes it needs to start out loud.

Note, again, he does not trouble to alter the key (rightly trusting in Holst's acumen).

Holst:

https://www.youtube.com/v/L0bcRCCg01I

Williams:

https://www.youtube.com/v/-bzWSJG93P8

Hmmm, my take on these is that Holst established an identifiable vocabulary that became synonymous with space opera.  A film composers job is to quickly get an emotional identity for a the drama in a way that fits the audiences expectation while also providing tools for the film maker to create tension/drama/romance/mood/setting/climax/adventure,etc.  In Holst, we have a lot of tools to dig into.  Polychords, flat sixth, march ostinatos, evocative otherworldly colors such as the wordless chorus, harps + celestas, organ pedals, etc., etc.  It is a text book of writing in this genre and pretty much orchestration because of how much variety is contained within. 

I'll grant an imperial march ostinato has a similar feel to Holst but this goes back to my point that the similarities are superficial.  The harmonic projects in Imperial March are very interesting and original.  If you want to hear derivative, I'll send you some of my own music that is indebted to John Williams's style.  It is original, but uses the tools he incorporated, learned, and mastered.  Similarly, he picked up these tools from those who influenced him (plus the lead from his film director). 

Here is a question - does John Williams even like the music he composed for Star Wars?  My point, how much of John Williams is the score we know and will probably be his lasting legacy given its 40 year history and cultural impact?  Would he have written this music differently if it has been a different director?  So the point is how much of what we hear and blame is his pastiche is actually the direction he is given and hired to fulfill?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 03, 2015, 07:17:50 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 03, 2015, 06:12:47 AM
If you just listen to the first half-minute of each in immediate succession . . . note that even the key center is adopted directly.

A little less obviously egregious . . . Here, of course, the older piece begins softly, because it has time for a crescendo, where for Williams' purposes it needs to start out loud.

Note, again, he does not trouble to alter the key (rightly trusting in Holst's acumen).

Holst:

https://www.youtube.com/v/L0bcRCCg01I

Williams:

https://www.youtube.com/v/-bzWSJG93P8
Here is the classic claim against him. But I have never been convinced. The meter is totally different. 5/4 time is somewhat unique and is part of what created the undulation and drive in Mars. That aspect is completely lacking in the Imperial March. And this is a true march, with a different rhythm. If you were to say this influenced, I could live with that, but I don't see it being a derivative. Certainly the theme itself is not taken from Mars.

Interestingly, someone earlier wrote:
Quote from: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 23, 2010, 10:23:48 AM
b) The Darth Vader theme IMO is borrowed from Shostakovich Symphony 1, 2nd mvmt.
So there is agreement that this was 'borrowed', but not agreement on what it was borrowed from (even if I think this one a little far afield myself).

So the real question is to what extent does 'borrowing' become unoriginal? Godowsky wrote a whole piece where he 'copied' and then altered all of Chopin's Etudes - how does that fit into this conversation? How is Godowsky different from Williams in this respect (or are they different)?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 03, 2015, 07:37:06 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 03, 2015, 07:17:50 AM
Here is the classic claim against him. But I have never been convinced. The meter is totally different. 5/4 time is somewhat unique and is part of what created the undulation and drive in Mars. That aspect is completely lacking in the Imperial March. And this is a true march, with a different rhythm. If you were to say this influenced, I could live with that, but I don't see it being a derivative. Certainly the theme itself is not taken from Mars.

Your points are all sound. My take is that Williams took the Mars ostinato as background material; I do think that element is fairly bald pilfering.  I suppose there is room to argue whether this is noxious plagiarism, or artistic adoption.  I suppose I can put the matter to the legal test, by turnabout:  making just such an artistic adoption of Williams material, keeping the key and modfiying the scoring, perhaps the meter, and seeing whether his representatives seek a judgment against me  ;)

Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 03, 2015, 06:47:22 AM
That depends on how you think this one stacks up...
https://www.youtube.com/v/HsTBd5ps5PU
Sure, they are quite similar, but I suspect if we thought a bit more, we could come up with even more examples like Holst's Saturn. it is not so uncommon an idea I think.

But you hear how the harmony and tempo are completely different in the Holst here, and how Williams has taken the very chords and the very tempo straight from Stravinsky's score.  If I had done such a thing, Neal, I should be ashamed to earn any royalties on a piece which so obviously belongs to another composer.

These were two examples which remain fresh in my mind.  I had many more back when I first saw the three original movies in the cinema;  but, to another point of yours, it is not worth my time to pore through the Williams scores to point out more of the egregious borrowings.  If these two examples strike you as merely fair play, we could not disagree more strongly, but I won't bore you with further repetition.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Ken B on September 03, 2015, 07:38:30 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 03, 2015, 07:17:50 AM

So there is agreement that this was 'borrowed', but not agreement on what it was borrowed from

Can't I borrow Star Wars from different libraries?

:laugh:

(Actually I think this is a very good point. I hear similarities and echoes in movie scores scores all the time. The Twilight Zone theme is in Der Mond by Orff.)

(I even heard some squirrelly piece with West Side Story influences!!  >:D ;) )
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 03, 2015, 07:39:27 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 03, 2015, 07:37:06 AM
. . . I suppose I can put the matter to the legal test, by turnabout:  making just such an artistic adoption of Williams material, keeping the key and modfiying the scoring, perhaps the meter, and seeing whether his representatives seek a judgment against me  ;)

And I wonder how many here would defend the artistic integrity of my methods.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on September 03, 2015, 08:08:35 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 03, 2015, 05:31:04 AM
Absolutely a matter of my opinion, and maybe no one else will agree with me . . . but (tangentially) an example where I feel Williams did work which is 75% excellent.

The big unison horn tune in Indiana J. and the Temple of Doom:  the first three phrases are strong, beautiful, rich in character, great contour.  And the fourth phrase is, meh.  And meh is a heckuva way to end, because that modulates all that came before.

I know, I know:  everyone else loves it.  Chalk it up to my personal musical eccentricity.
Oh, who listens to the last phrase anymore? :laugh:
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 03, 2015, 08:12:51 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on September 03, 2015, 08:08:35 AM
Oh, who listens to the last phrase anymore? :laugh:

Well, my wife upbraids me for actually listening to the words in pop songs, too . . . .
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on September 03, 2015, 08:25:59 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 03, 2015, 08:12:51 AM
Well, my wife upbraids me for actually listening to the words in pop songs, too . . . .
:laugh:

I had forgotten that the Tatooine scene borrowed that directly from Stravinsky's riotous score. ;) I agree, it would have been polite of Mr. Williams to acknowledge this.  And maybe he has acknowledged it somewhere.

Actually, I just thought of another way to determine whether it is "classical" music: Ask the members of the London Symphony Orchestra, who played the original soundtrack. ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: North Star on September 03, 2015, 09:10:12 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on September 03, 2015, 08:25:59 AMActually, I just thought of another way to determine whether it is "classical" music: Ask the members of the London Symphony Orchestra, who played the original soundtrack. ;D
And perhaps we should also ask them what they define as "classical music". Surely being played by a symphony orchestra can't be the definition alone.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 03, 2015, 11:49:27 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 03, 2015, 07:37:06 AMI suppose I can put the matter to the legal test, by turnabout:  making just such an artistic adoption of Williams material, keeping the key and modfiying the scoring, perhaps the meter, and seeing whether his representatives seek a judgment against me  ;)

Legal action occurs frequently in the pop realm but I can't think of a single instance where classical composers (and here I include Williams) have sued one another for plagiarism. Has there been? Specifically, has Williams been sued?

Sarge
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 03, 2015, 12:04:30 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 03, 2015, 11:49:27 AM
Legal action occurs frequently in the pop realm but I can't think of a single instance where classical composers (and here I include Williams) have sued one another for plagiarism. Has there been? Specifically, has Williams been sued?

Sarge

I don't know, but I expect not.  Is the Holst P.D.?  Certainly Le sacre was unprotected by copyright in the West until Stravinsky (for that reason) prepared a 1947 revision.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: North Star on September 03, 2015, 12:18:10 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 03, 2015, 11:49:27 AM
Legal action occurs frequently in the pop realm but I can't think of a single instance where classical composers (and here I include Williams) have sued one another for plagiarism. Has there been? Specifically, has Williams been sued?

Sarge

The closest to this kind of thing that I can think of is Eric Carmen and Rachmaninoff estate, they reached an agreement over the royalties of All by Myself and Never Gonna Fall in Love Again, based partly on Rakh's PC2 and Symphony 2, respectively. Carmen thought they were in public domain.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: ritter on September 03, 2015, 12:30:18 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 03, 2015, 11:49:27 AM
Legal action occurs frequently in the pop realm but I can't think of a single instance where classical composers (and here I include Williams) have sued one another for plagiarism. Has there been? Specifically, has Williams been sued?

Sarge
Well, there's Stravinsky's quotation in Pétrouchka of Dranem's "La Jambe en bois". Igor Feodorovich apparently thought that it was an old popular song, was sued, and was sentenced from then on to pay a good chunk (5% IIRC) of any royalties from his ballet to the song's composer (much to Stravinsky's chagrin, evidently)...

https://www.youtube.com/v/mSE6Aop14WU
Dranem (Charles Armand Ménard) wouldn't qualify as a classical composer (just as IMHO John Williams would either  ::)), but Stravinsky probably does  ;)...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 03, 2015, 12:37:47 PM
Quote from: North Star on September 03, 2015, 12:18:10 PM
The closest to this kind of thing that I can think of is Eric Carmen and Rachmaninoff estate, they reached an agreement over the royalties of All by Myself and Never Gonna Fall in Love Again, based partly on Rakh's PC2 and Symphony 2, respectively. Carmen thought they were in public domain.

Quote from: ritter on September 03, 2015, 12:30:18 PM
Well, there's Stravinsky's quotation in Pétrouchka of Dranem's "La Jambe en bois". Igor Feodorovich apparently thought that it was an old popular song, was sued, and was sentenced from then on to pay a good chunk (5% IIRC) of any royalties from his ballet to the song's composer (much to Stravinsky's chagrin, evidently)...

The examples are pop vs classical. Still no instances of classical composers going to court against each other for plagiarism. In that case, I think Karl can safely steal Williams' thefts  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 03, 2015, 01:17:00 PM
(* proceeds to hatch evil musical plots *)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 03, 2015, 01:18:54 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 03, 2015, 01:17:00 PM
(* proceeds to hatch evil musical plots *)

;D :D ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Ken B on September 03, 2015, 01:28:14 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 03, 2015, 01:17:00 PM
(* proceeds to hatch evil musical plots *)
d

Jeez Louise, he's already ripping off Stockhausen!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Rinaldo on September 04, 2015, 04:16:57 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 03, 2015, 05:49:30 AM...but it also means that comparing these film scores to classical music is something of a grapefruit-to-tangelos affair.

Agreed!

QuoteAnd, yes, my attitude would probably be different if I had heard any concert work by Williams which doesn't niff a bit even on ice.  Which is to say, even when he has the complete control which is the composer's preference, the result does not shine.

Not only do they not shine, they suck big time. And after reading Williams' crybaby comments on how the classical world treats him soooo badly, I lost quite a bit of respect for the guy.

That said - was he handcuffed by the director's vision?

QuoteGeorge Lucas:  I want a classical score. I want the Korngold kind of feel about this thing. It's an old-fashioned kind of movie, and I want that grand soundtrack that you used to have in movies.

Leonard Maltin:  Didn't you at first want him to use existing classical music?  Is that true?

George Lucas:  No, I had written it to certain pieces of music. I write to music. So, when I'm writing a scene I have the music there and I'm writing it to the music, and then in a lot of cases we'll use that same music as a temp track.  So there was temp tracks of classical music in the score.

(Use the Holst, Luke) (https://reederman.wordpress.com/john-williams/)

Lucas made the temp track from his classical music collection. It was comprised of 'Holst, Dvořák, Walton, Miklos Rozsa's score for Ben-Hur', and others such as Ravel and Stravinsky.

'..."You have no idea what John's music contributes to the films," says actor Anthony Daniels, who plays the golden tin man, C-3PO. "The first time I saw any of Star Wars, Ravel's Bolero was still on the soundtrack."

(Creative Borrowing in the Score of Star Wars (http://www.thetutorpages.com/tutor-article/classical-theory-composition/creative-borrowing-in-the-score-of-star-wars/4260))

I'd say that's a yes. And he still delivered a brilliant score that elevates the movie to tremendous heights and can also be enjoyed on its own / in the concert hall. Is it classical music? I think the right question should be - is it good classical music? To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi, from a certain point of view..

And about those legal issues:

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 03, 2015, 11:49:27 AMLegal action occurs frequently in the pop realm but I can't think of a single instance where classical composers (and here I include Williams) have sued one another for plagiarism. Has there been? Specifically, has Williams been sued?

QuoteHans Zimmer's soundtrack for Gladiator was actually sued by 'the Holst foundation' and music publishers 'J. Curwen & Sons' who claimed he borrowed directly from "Mars: Bringer of War" and was in violation of copyright laws.

(...)

Williams was never sued by anyone.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on September 04, 2015, 04:38:30 AM
No, he would not have been;  per Neal's observations, there is enough independent material to clear Williams.  And the man certainly has great talent, within a specific range.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 04, 2015, 05:08:27 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on September 04, 2015, 04:16:57 AM
And about those legal issues:

Thanks for that. Who won? Here are comparisons between Zimmer and Holst:

https://www.youtube.com/v/cFswFI7fqxU


Sarge
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on September 04, 2015, 08:05:22 AM
"The golden tin man, C-3PO". Ok, that was priceless.  ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 01, 2016, 11:42:36 AM
Quote from: listener on November 05, 2009, 10:47:50 PM
How might this differ from Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky  and Lt. Kije scores or Walton's Henry V or Bliss's Things to Come ?

There are a but a handful of film scores and incidental theater music where a career classical composer was asked to compose because the distinct musical style for which they were already known was what was being sought. The scores by those composers you've named sound completely unique and do resonate with the composer's "original voice."  Aaron Copland and a number of other classical composers who have written for film could be added to that list.  You can also toss in with this lot those 'incidental' musics written for theater productions by earlier composers, such as Mendelssohn's Midsummer's Night Dream, Grieg's Peer Gynt, etc. -- also music in the utterly distinct style of each composer.  And but of course when someone wishes to argue that other film scores 'are classical' these aforementioned composer's works are trotted out as the usual suspects and evidence in the argument that film scores 'are classical music.'

John Williams is a master craftsman whose film scores are, in their majority, almost entirely derivative of earlier works by earlier classical composers, at least when they are not jazz or some other genre; while he is clearly and fully in command of his craft as required and expected of the job -- which includes writing convincingly and at great speed in that myriad of styles and genres [and that often enough in one film from one scene to the next] -- what comes from that is radically different to the still current expectations and tradition of the classical composer having and maintaining a distinct and unique individual voice.

Extracting a suite from a film score for concert presentation does not in any way wave a magic wand over the score which turns the general film-score genre into classical.  [Bernstein's suite, Symphonic dances from West Side Story, including its jazz-inflected dodecaphonic fugue, remains a symphonic suite from a Broadway Musical; the recording he made of the entire show with a line-up of some of the best operatic singers of the day remains a recording of a Broadway musical, as would a similar performance in an opera house leave the genre unaltered.]

Extracted concert suites of film scores are rarely -- while there are a but a very few exceptions -- performed on other than a symphonic 'pops' concert program. That programming is not done out of some innate snobbery or draconian minding of the classical store, but simply because the film-scores which are not from those aforementioned almost exclusively classical composers who were composing using their own voice do not sit very well on a program next to, say, a symphony by Mozart, or Ives, or a piece by Berio. If not for a different audience, the film score on a concert program makes for one part of a very different overall meal.

One "blurred line category" score I can think of: John Corigliano re-worked his material for the film, The Red Violin into a concertante work for solo violin and orchestra.

That all said, lines have been, and are continually being, blurred, but on a case-by-case basis, lol.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 01, 2016, 12:38:45 PM
Quote from: Rinaldo on September 04, 2015, 04:16:57 AM
[Williams' scores] Not only do they not shine, they suck big time. And after reading Williams' crybaby comments on how the classical world treats him soooo badly....

This reminds me of a similar scenario wherein Andrew Lloyd Webber complained vociferously that the classical music establishment was not taking his works seriously.

One critic responded in a publication that if Webber desired for the classical music community to take him seriously, all that would be needed was for the composer to write a work of classical music, and that piece would then be considered by the classical music community :laugh:
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: SimonNZ on January 01, 2016, 01:32:17 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 01, 2016, 11:42:36 AM

One "blurred line category" score I can think of: John Corigliano re-worked his material for the film, The Red Violin into a concertante work for solo violin and orchestra.


Corigliano also reworked parts of his brilliant atypical Altered States score into a concert piece Three Hallucinations.


(and that's a very familiar looking avatar, monsieur, which I'm glad to see again, and look forward to seeing more of.)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 01, 2016, 06:23:12 PM
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 01, 2016, 01:32:17 PM
Corigliano also reworked parts of his brilliant atypical Altered States score into a concert piece Three Hallucinations.
... and to bring it back home to my point of distinction, Corigliano is primarily a classical composer, the majority of his work unquestionably classical, and he has done several film scores as well. Just sayin'  :)

Quote from: SimonNZ on January 01, 2016, 01:32:17 PM(and that's a very familiar looking avatar, monsieur, which I'm glad to see again, and look forward to seeing more of.)

Je vous merci, Monsieur, and likewise, to be sure. So briefly far, this place is looking like it has quite good company, including some old familiars I have been much missing.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 02:21:36 AM
Some 100 years ago a new art form was born. It's father was theatre and it's mother was opera. The father and mother were brought together by another relatively new invention: Photography.

When we look at soundtracks in movies, it's only logical that they are based on theatre and opera music. John Williams is Wagner of movies. How much do we demand from Wagner to be called classical music? How much do we demand from opera music in general to be called classical music? How much do we demand from Bizet's Carmen or Offenbach's Orphée aux enfers? How much do we demand from Carl Nielsen's theatre music?

In my opinion not counting Star Wars soundracks as classical music would logically lead to re-evaluation of a lot of opera and theatre music we have considered classical music.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 02, 2016, 11:31:18 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 02:21:36 AM
John Williams is Wagner of movies. How much do we demand from Wagner to be called classical music? How much do we demand from opera music in general to be called classical music? How much do we demand from Bizet's Carmen or Offenbach's Orphée aux enfers? How much do we demand from Carl Nielsen's theatre music?

In my opinion not counting Star Wars soundracks as classical music would logically lead to re-evaluation of a lot of opera and theatre music we have considered classical music.
^^^Sorry, there is just no real logic in this last sentence. Wagner wrote non-stop music and sung dramas, not incidental music to accompany scenes in a play.^^^

Wagner was a distinct and unique musical voice, period. [For the sake of discussion, we'll leave out his additional great importance as having unbuttoned the hierarchy of chord function of common practice harmony and the tremendous influence that had on the directions classical music took because of that.]

John Williams' score for star wars is excessively derivative. That is not necessarily a dis as much as it is simply the nature and state of the job of contemporary film-scoring, the score result very shaped by the musical directives of the film's director. Lucas, while writing the screenplay, played existing music as a helpful stimulus. He requested from Williams, then, music very much like;
Erich Wolfgang Korngold -- which is from the direct line of Wagner and later German romanticism.
a segment from Stravinsky's le sacre du printemps.
Holst's Neptune from The Planets.
etc.

The Star Wars score is music from an expert of pastiche; though 'original' [not exactly those other musics] the score was written with those direct references as criteria, and Williams the craftsman did the job meeting the requirements as per the criteria.

This is nowhere near the way the theater music, ballet music, or operas by the classical composers you mentioned came about. Each of those wrote those scores in their own style, using their unique voice. They composed original non-derivative music with a readily identifiable musical personality.

Williams composing highly derivative incidental music for a film puts him no where in the league of a 'Wagner of film composers,' and there is no logical argument that will ever place the Star Wars scores anywhere near.

The put-forth examples of the older classical composers composing for theater, opera and ballet is useless, if nothing else because those composers were writing in their unique style and voice, and not composing a stream of movements each a pastiche of some other composer. The earlier film scores which are regularly cited in this sort of discussion were from a time when film makers sought out a particular classical composer for the style of music for which that composer was known, and were not asking those composers to write 'something like this other composer, something like that other composer.'

A lucid example of 'write like this,' is Richard Addinsell's Warsaw Concerto for the film Dangerous Moonlight. The director had wanted to use Rachmaninov's second piano concerto, but the royalties could not be afforded within the film's music budget. Enter Addinsell, who was required to write something 'very like Rachmaninov.' Et voila... the piece became wildly popular, got performed in concert halls, and for a while it spawned a modest spate of a specific genre of brief neo-romantic piano concerti, which became known as "Tabloid Concertos." lol.

Your Ears Will Inform You:
Side-by-side auditions of bits of William's scores next to very like well-known precedent classical pieces [you can not say that Williams does not know the rep.]
Some of the following in this link are more tangential associations, while others are close enough that, for instance, the Holst rip-off was subject to a law suit which found in favor of the Holst copyright owner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IV5u9iwuQ

Did Williams compose a decent, rousing film score which many find catchy, and has that score become popular?
Sure.  Did he, or has he, composed anything with a unique musical voice and distinct musical personality original enough to stand out in either the pop or classical realms? Imo, and in the wide realms of what is the classical music community, that is a resounding "Not."

"But he has composed "legitimate classical music," concerti for classical ensembles."
Yes, and they are eminently forgettable pieces which sound as if the composer took a film director's directive: "John, we've got a twenty minute scene in one take of an instrumentalist playing a concerto. I want a conservatively contemporary classical sounding score there." -- this state of affairs -- jack of all styles, master of none -- is more than possible to arrive at when your entire life and career has been composing 'music like,' vs. finding a voice of your own; you end up having no distinct musical personality, even if your pastiche works have stylistic traits enough to identify them as yours.

Some film score segments can be lovely, stirring, but above all, whatever they are, they are brief and need to be 'catchy' and immediately effective within a matter of a very brief moment. The requisite skill and talent for that are not to be glibly dismissed, but those are specifics none of which much apply very directly to the parameters of the classical repertoire, whatever the era.

So, we have this pleasant enough bit by Williams, Harry Potter rides the Hippogriff... where the ride, and the underscoring -- a not at all fresh melange vocabulary of late and later romantic -- lasts but a few minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKbr3o36IpY
Q: Based on the length of the underscored flight segment, how many round trip flights can Harry take on the hippogriff Buckbeak before Wagner's sustained rolling single E-flat chord introduction to Das Rheingold has ended?
A: Two


That Williams is highly successful, and financially successful -- and that was not 'overnight,' he's worked for it over decades -- has garnered many industry and other awards does not either validate him as a classical composer or make him or his film scores anything but what they are... highly popular film score music from a highly successful film score composer.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 02, 2016, 11:58:00 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 02, 2016, 11:31:18 AM

^^^Sorry, there is just no real logic in that last sentence.

Wagner was a distinct and unique musical voice, period. [For the sake of discussion, we'll leave out his additional great importance as having unbuttoned the hierarchy of chord function of common practice harmony and the tremendous influence that had on the directions classical music took because of that.]

John Williams' score for star wars is excessively derivative. That is not necessarily a dis as much as it is simply the nature and state of the job of contemporary film-scoring, the score result very shaped by the musical directives of the film's director. Lucas, while writing the screenplay, played existing music as a helpful stimulus. He requested from Williams, then, music very much like;
Erich Wolfgang Korngold -- which is from the direct line of Wagner and later German romanticism.
a segment from Stravinsky's le sacre du printemps.
Holst's Neptune from The Planets.
etc.

The Star Wars score is music from an expert of pastiche; though 'original' [not exactly those other musics] the score was written with those direct references as criteria, and Williams the craftsman did the job meeting the requirements as per the criteria.

This is nowhere near the way the theater music, ballet music, or operas by the classical composers you mentioned came about. Each of those wrote those scores in their own style, using their unique voice. They composed original non-derivative music with a readily identifiable musical personality.

Williams composing highly derivative incidental music for a film puts him no where in the league of a 'Wagner of film composers,' and there is no logical argument that will ever place the Star Wars scores anywhere near.

The put-forth examples of the older classical composers composing for theater, opera and ballet is useless, if nothing else because those composers were writing in their unique style and voice, and not composing a stream of movements each a pastiche of some other composer. The earlier film scores which are regularly cited in this sort of discussion were from a time when film makers sought out a particular classical composer for the style of music for which that composer was known, and were not asking those composers to write 'something like this other composer, something like that other composer.'

A lucid example of 'write like this,' is Richard Addinsell's Warsaw Concerto for the film Dangerous Moonlight. The director had wanted to use Rachmaninov's second piano concerto, but the royalties could not be afforded within the film's music budget. Enter Addinsell, who was required to write something 'very like Rachmaninov.' Et voila... the piece became wildly popular, got performed in concert halls, and for a while it spawned a modest spate of a specific genre of brief neo-romantic piano concerti, which became known as "Tabloid Concertos." lol.

Your Ears Will Inform You:
Side-by-side auditions of bits of William's scores next to very like well-known precedent classical pieces [you can not say that Williams does not know the rep.]
Some of the following in this link are more tangential associations, while others are close enough that, for instance, the Holst rip-off was subject to a law suit which found in favor of the Holst copyright owner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IV5u9iwuQ

Did Williams compose a decent, rousing film score which many have found catchy, and made wildly popular?
Sure.  Did he, or has he, composed anything with a unique musical voice and distinct musical personality original enough to stand out in either the pop or classical realms? Imo, and in the wide realms of what is the classical music community, that is a resounding "Not."

"But he has composed "legitimate classical music," concerti for classical ensembles."
Yes, and they are eminently forgettable pieces which sound as if the composer took a film director's directive: "John, we've got a twenty minute scene in one take of an instrumentalist playing a concerto. I want a conservatively contemporary classical sounding score there." -- this state of affairs -- jack of all styles, master of none -- is more than possible to arrive at when your entire life and career has been composing 'music like,' vs. finding a voice of your own; you end up having no distinct musical personality, even if your pastiche works have traits enough to identify them as yours.

Some film score segments can be lovely, stirring, but above all, whatever they are, they are brief and need to be 'catchy' and immediately effective within a matter of a very brief moment. The requisite skill and talent for that are not to be glibly dismissed, but those are specifics none of which much apply to the parameters of the classical repertoire, whatever the era.

So, we have this pleasant enough bit by Williams, Harry Potter rides the Hippogriff...
where the ride, and the underscoring -- a not at all fresh melange vocabulary of late and later romantic -- lasts but a few minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKbr3o36IpY
Q: Based on the length of both the scene and the underscoring, how many round trips can Harry make on the hippogriff Buckbeak before Wagner's sustained rolling E-flat chord introduction to Das Rheingold has ended?
A: Two


That Williams is highly successful, and financially successful -- and that was not 'overnight,' he's worked for it over decades -- has garnered many industry and other awards does not either validate him as a classical composer or make him or his music anything but what they are... highly popular film score music from a highly successful film score composer.
Blah Blah Blah. Most of it the same old nonsense.

Most (if not all) composers in history are derivative in the sense that they take styles that predate them an use them in some form or another to create their own unique voice. That is exactly what Williams did in creating his own unique voice and style. You can hear his music and very often tell it is his. Just because you dislike this voice for some reason (or the man behind it) does not mean it is not there.

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: SimonNZ on January 02, 2016, 12:25:01 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 02:21:36 AM

When we look at soundtracks in movies, it's only logical that they are based on theatre and opera music. John Williams is Wagner of movies. How much do we demand from Wagner to be called classical music? How much do we demand from opera music in general to be called classical music? How much do we demand from Bizet's Carmen or Offenbach's Orphée aux enfers? How much do we demand from Carl Nielsen's theatre music?

In my opinion not counting Star Wars soundracks as classical music would logically lead to re-evaluation of a lot of opera and theatre music we have considered classical music.

Sorry, but I can't agree with this.

Wagner's music is the principal text. Its the thing that can't be substituted, or else Meistersinger isn't Meistersinger any more. Who does the sets and how, who does the costumes and how etc are secondary art forms to that. Soundtracks - even Star Wars - are secondary to the film, and while substituting one for another may be less helpful or incongrious in the film are not the principal artwork. Williams score is fine and certainly supported and added to the success of the film, but Star Wars would still be Star Wars - and Altered States would still be Altered States, much as I love that soundtrack - if Danny Elfman or Tangerine Dream scored them.


(I haven't read all 34 pages of this thread - I supose everything sensible and silly has already been said, including my comment)

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 02, 2016, 12:33:51 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 02, 2016, 11:58:00 AM
Blah Blah Blah. Most of it the same old nonsense.

Most (if not all) composers in history are derivative in the sense that they take styles that predate them an use them in some form or another to create their own unique voice. That is exactly what Williams did in creating his own unique voice and style. You can hear his music and very often tell it is his. Just because you dislike this voice for some reason (or the man behind it) does not mean it is not there.

If you really can not hear a vast difference in what Bruckner 'took' from his predecessors, or Mozart from his, or Beethoven from his [and he took plenty from Haydn and Mozart as well as others] -- and not hear how distinct those composers are one from the other vs. cribbed pastiche near copies directly based on other pieces, there is no worth discussing the difference of Williams' Star Wars scores, or caring to distinguish them as a genre other than classical.

I'm quite aware that once people think something is classical and find it is then categorized as another genre, that is too often taken as some sort of demotion of that music, or even more wrongly, personally as a direct dis of a person's taste -- none of which is part of the discussion, nor any part of the point at all.

It is only about
Species: Music.
Genus: _____.

One can not care about such an obvious difference if you hear no distinction, and then of course it follows there will be little or no interest in genre categorization either. "Sounds classical, must be," becomes good enough if you don't have any real interest in genre categorization.

On the other hand, If Williams' Star Wars is classical, then isn't James Horner's score to Titanic also classical? Ergo, genre distinction is useful.

I should have, I suppose, earlier reminded myself that this thread is in the beginner's section, where other very like classical genres are often mistaken as classical.

Unfortunately, there is and will never be a quick fix answer to "What makes it classical," and the long answer is that it takes years, sometimes decades, of listening to a lot of classical repertoire before some will recognize the palpable difference where on their own 'classical sounding' and a large symphonic orchestral palette do not instantly qualify a piece of music as something classical.

Categorization of genre apart, I can't believe that genre categorization on its own has any power to qualify whether the music is good or bad, or dissuade a listener away from whatever music they like.

Best regards.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Rinaldo on January 02, 2016, 01:21:18 PM
I'll just leave this here..

Alex Ross: Listening to "Star Wars" (http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/listening-to-star-wars)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 01:42:24 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 02, 2016, 11:31:18 AM

^^^Sorry, there is just no real logic in this last sentence. Wagner wrote non-stop music and sung dramas, not incidental music to accompany scenes in a play.^^^

Wagner was a distinct and unique musical voice, period. [For the sake of discussion, we'll leave out his additional great importance as having unbuttoned the hierarchy of chord function of common practice harmony and the tremendous influence that had on the directions classical music took because of that.]

John Williams' score for star wars is excessively derivative. That is not necessarily a dis as much as it is simply the nature and state of the job of contemporary film-scoring, the score result very shaped by the musical directives of the film's director. Lucas, while writing the screenplay, played existing music as a helpful stimulus. He requested from Williams, then, music very much like;
Erich Wolfgang Korngold -- which is from the direct line of Wagner and later German romanticism.
a segment from Stravinsky's le sacre du printemps.
Holst's Neptune from The Planets.
etc.

The Star Wars score is music from an expert of pastiche; though 'original' [not exactly those other musics] the score was written with those direct references as criteria, and Williams the craftsman did the job meeting the requirements as per the criteria.

This is nowhere near the way the theater music, ballet music, or operas by the classical composers you mentioned came about. Each of those wrote those scores in their own style, using their unique voice. They composed original non-derivative music with a readily identifiable musical personality.

Williams composing highly derivative incidental music for a film puts him no where in the league of a 'Wagner of film composers,' and there is no logical argument that will ever place the Star Wars scores anywhere near.

The put-forth examples of the older classical composers composing for theater, opera and ballet is useless, if nothing else because those composers were writing in their unique style and voice, and not composing a stream of movements each a pastiche of some other composer. The earlier film scores which are regularly cited in this sort of discussion were from a time when film makers sought out a particular classical composer for the style of music for which that composer was known, and were not asking those composers to write 'something like this other composer, something like that other composer.'

A lucid example of 'write like this,' is Richard Addinsell's Warsaw Concerto for the film Dangerous Moonlight. The director had wanted to use Rachmaninov's second piano concerto, but the royalties could not be afforded within the film's music budget. Enter Addinsell, who was required to write something 'very like Rachmaninov.' Et voila... the piece became wildly popular, got performed in concert halls, and for a while it spawned a modest spate of a specific genre of brief neo-romantic piano concerti, which became known as "Tabloid Concertos." lol.

Your Ears Will Inform You:
Side-by-side auditions of bits of William's scores next to very like well-known precedent classical pieces [you can not say that Williams does not know the rep.]
Some of the following in this link are more tangential associations, while others are close enough that, for instance, the Holst rip-off was subject to a law suit which found in favor of the Holst copyright owner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IV5u9iwuQ

Did Williams compose a decent, rousing film score which many find catchy, and has that score become popular?
Sure.  Did he, or has he, composed anything with a unique musical voice and distinct musical personality original enough to stand out in either the pop or classical realms? Imo, and in the wide realms of what is the classical music community, that is a resounding "Not."

"But he has composed "legitimate classical music," concerti for classical ensembles."
Yes, and they are eminently forgettable pieces which sound as if the composer took a film director's directive: "John, we've got a twenty minute scene in one take of an instrumentalist playing a concerto. I want a conservatively contemporary classical sounding score there." -- this state of affairs -- jack of all styles, master of none -- is more than possible to arrive at when your entire life and career has been composing 'music like,' vs. finding a voice of your own; you end up having no distinct musical personality, even if your pastiche works have stylistic traits enough to identify them as yours.

Some film score segments can be lovely, stirring, but above all, whatever they are, they are brief and need to be 'catchy' and immediately effective within a matter of a very brief moment. The requisite skill and talent for that are not to be glibly dismissed, but those are specifics none of which much apply very directly to the parameters of the classical repertoire, whatever the era.

So, we have this pleasant enough bit by Williams, Harry Potter rides the Hippogriff... where the ride, and the underscoring -- a not at all fresh melange vocabulary of late and later romantic -- lasts but a few minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKbr3o36IpY
Q: Based on the length of the underscored flight segment, how many round trip flights can Harry take on the hippogriff Buckbeak before Wagner's sustained rolling single E-flat chord introduction to Das Rheingold has ended?
A: Two


That Williams is highly successful, and financially successful -- and that was not 'overnight,' he's worked for it over decades -- has garnered many industry and other awards does not either validate him as a classical composer or make him or his film scores anything but what they are... highly popular film score music from a highly successful film score composer.

Wow! You really fear some of John Williams' music counts as classical music. Why else would you try to shoot my arguments down with a cannon?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 02, 2016, 02:19:24 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 01:42:24 PM
Wow! You really fear some of John Williams' music counts as classical music. Why else would you try to shoot my arguments down with a cannon?

I don't have a cannon, just an alpha-numeric keyboard.

I have no 'fear' that William's Star Wars counts as classical music, far to many know it just isn't to have me fearing a handful of opinions on a forum. That said, the craft involved in them is a solid display of someone who has deeply studied classical music, knows form, theory, 'sophisticated' compositional devices, and he deploys them as extensively as did the older-school classical composer emigres like Korngold, et alia, who also composed for films. BTW, Korngold, Rosa, Herrmann, etc. are also film composers when the music was for film -- both the category and the title are neutral, and neither pejorative or laden with implicit opprobrium.

Could it be said that you really fear that John Williams' Star Wars might just not be truly classical music?
And, I think this is important, if it is not classical music, does that in any way demean the composer or lessen the quality of the music in so far as your ability to enjoy it?

I do have some disappointment and irritation when those who seem or claim to know and recognize classical music then mistake Williams' Star wars for classical rather than recognize it as a well written and zippy film score which is a pastiche or parody of Erich Wolfgang Korngold's film scores, bits of Holst, Stravinsky, etc. and not recognizing that pretty much demonstrates that person isn't overall familiar enough with classical to make a legitimate genre call in the first place.

Classical "knock-off" is not classical, it is an imitation of classical; one is classical, the other a different genre, simples.

I've seen the same degree of personal upset over genre categorization when someone is informed that just because Yiruma is seen performing his piano pieces on a grand piano, that doesn't make his music classical. I've seen others upset that non-classical music played by a symphonic ensemble is not automatically classical just because it is played by a symphonic ensemble, often including the embedded misconception that there are 'classical instruments.'
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 04:01:10 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 02, 2016, 02:19:24 PM
I don't have a cannon, just an alpha-numeric keyboard.

I have no 'fear' that William's Star Wars counts as classical music, far to many know it just isn't to have me fearing a handful of opinions on a forum. That said, the craft involved in them is a solid display of someone who has deeply studied classical music, knows form, theory, 'sophisticated' compositional devices, and he deploys them as extensively as did the older-school classical composer emigres like Korngold, et alia, who also composed for films. BTW, Korngold, Rosa, Herrmann, etc. are also film composers when the music was for film -- both the category and the title are neutral, and neither pejorative or laden with implicit opprobrium.

Could it be said that you really fear that John Williams' Star Wars might just not be truly classical music?
And, I think this is important, if it is not classical music, does that in any way demean the composer or lessen the quality of the music in so far as your ability to enjoy it?

I do have some disappointment and irritation when those who seem or claim to know and recognize classical music then mistake Williams' Star wars for classical rather than recognize it as a well written and zippy film score which is a pastiche or parody of Erich Wolfgang Korngold's film scores, bits of Holst, Stravinsky, etc. and not recognizing that pretty much demonstrates that person isn't overall familiar enough with classical to make a legitimate genre call in the first place.

Classical "knock-off" is not classical, it is an imitation of classical; one is classical, the other a different genre, simples.

I've seen the same degree of personal upset over genre categorization when someone is informed that just because Yiruma is seen performing his piano pieces on a grand piano, that doesn't make his music classical. I've seen others upset that non-classical music played by a symphonic ensemble is not automatically classical just because it is played by a symphonic ensemble, often including the embedded misconception that there are 'classical instruments.'

To me Star Wars soundtracks are classical music, no matter how much you try to prove they are not. End of discussion.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 02, 2016, 04:08:26 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 04:01:10 PM
To me Star Wars soudtracks are classical music, no matter how much you try to prove they are not. End of discussion.
"It is so, because I say it is so," is an empty assertion. End of discussion.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 04:18:33 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 02, 2016, 04:08:26 PM
"It is so, because I say it is so," is an empty assertion. End of discussion.
Exactly, because it is an opinion, not a fact. At least 47.7 % agree with me.  :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 02, 2016, 04:31:00 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 04:18:33 PM
Exactly, because it is an opinion, not a fact. At least 47.7 % agree with me.  :)

47.7 % agree with you in the beginners section of an online classical music forum the majority of whose members are dilettante and amateur classical music fans. I'm sure that makes you feel downright cozy about that empiric opinion being reinforced by that  47.7 %
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: SimonNZ on January 02, 2016, 04:44:34 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 04:01:10 PM
End of discussion.

Pity. I was hoping you were going to reply to my response in post 673.


Looking over the start of the thread I see this post (from 6 years ago) which expresses my position more eloquently than I am:


Quote from: karlhenning on November 11, 2009, 09:32:03 AM

I'm writing a ballet.  The duration of the ballet, the component scenes, the sequence, every bar of the music — that is all under the complete control of one person, and that one person is the composer (in this case, myself).

Name me a film where this was ever the case.

Now, one may object that I am working under atypical conditions:  there is as yet no stage director, no choreographer, with whom I am working, and these are people who normally have some input in various details of the music to a ballet.

Two answers:

1]  When (as I hope, or we might say simply if) my piece reaches a point where a company will dance it, and the stage director or choreographer suggests cutting this, changing that, switching the order of these two numbers, taking this dance from Act IV and inserting it into Act II — I have the option of saying, No; this is the way I have written the ballet, and either you dance the piece the way I have written it, or you find some other ballet to do.

I ask again:  Where is the fellow who scored a film, who ever possessed a claim to that option?

2]  Even under more typical ballet-creation conditions, the composer has creative control over the final musical result, to a degree which is simply impossible in film.

You ask, How is film music different from music written to accompany a ballet?

Read Stravinsky's biography where he is working on Orpheus.  Then read Hitchcock's biography where he is working on Pyscho.  In the first case, Stravinsky is in the driver's seat;  in the second, Hitchcock.

Which of the two was a composer?

It is a question on which application of one's brain is not entirely a bad thing . . . .
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 02, 2016, 04:45:42 PM


Quote from: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 04:18:33 PM
Exactly, because it is an opinion, not a fact.

That's the confusion. Composer of classical music is a factual description of Mozart; the matter of opinion doesn't enter into it.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 04:46:08 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 02, 2016, 04:31:00 PM
47.7 % agree with you in the beginners section of an online classical music forum the majority of whose members are dilettante and amateur classical music fans. I'm sure that makes you feel downright cozy about that empiric opinion being reinforced by that  47.7 %

How do you know? I think most votes came form "old timers".
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 04:50:14 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 02, 2016, 04:45:42 PM

That's the confusion. Composer of classical music is a factual description of Mozart; the matter of opinion doesn't enter into it.
So only Mozart is classical music?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 02, 2016, 04:52:58 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 02, 2016, 12:33:51 PM
If you really can not hear a vast difference in what Bruckner 'took' from his predecessors, or Mozart from his, or Beethoven from his [and he took plenty from Haydn and Mozart as well as others] -- and not hear how distinct those composers are one from the other vs. cribbed pastiche near copies directly based on other pieces, there is no worth discussing the difference of Williams' Star Wars scores, or caring to distinguish them as a genre other than classical.

I'm quite aware that once people think something is classical and find it is then categorized as another genre, that is too often taken as some sort of demotion of that music, or even more wrongly, personally as a direct dis of a person's taste -- none of which is part of the discussion, nor any part of the point at all.

It is only about
Species: Music.
Genus: _____.

One can not care about such an obvious difference if you hear no distinction, and then of course it follows there will be little or no interest in genre categorization either. "Sounds classical, must be," becomes good enough if you don't have any real interest in genre categorization.

On the other hand, If Williams' Star Wars is classical, then isn't James Horner's score to Titanic also classical? Ergo, genre distinction is useful.

I should have, I suppose, earlier reminded myself that this thread is in the beginner's section, where other very like classical genres are often mistaken as classical.

Unfortunately, there is and will never be a quick fix answer to "What makes it classical," and the long answer is that it takes years, sometimes decades, of listening to a lot of classical repertoire before some will recognize the palpable difference where on their own 'classical sounding' and a large symphonic orchestral palette do not instantly qualify a piece of music as something classical.

Categorization of genre apart, I can't believe that genre categorization on its own has any power to qualify whether the music is good or bad, or dissuade a listener away from whatever music they like.

Best regards.
First, there is no need to be insulting. Nor is there shame in posting in a thread in the beginner's section. It implies nothing though you have used it as a put down (both here and later).

Second, if you don't care to listen to Williams or understand the uniqueness, distinctness and creativeness of his voice, then you are right - there is no need to continue discussing.

Third, the categorization question goes to the heart of the question that is really being asked here. What is classical music? It was initially used to separate it from newer styles. But there is no clear demarcation. I would agree that other movie scores would need to be classified as classical (if we accept Star Wars in this way) and I don't  have a problem with that. I have always viewed classical as more than something that encompasses music written before a certain time using certain codified norms. From my view, movie scores are a natural extension from classical music and there has long been crossover between the two.

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 02, 2016, 04:56:17 PM
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 02, 2016, 04:44:34 PM
Pity. I was hoping you were going to reply to my response in post 673.


Looking over the start of the thread I see this post (from 6 years ago) which expresses my position more eloquently than I am:


Actually, Clint Eastwood writes the music to many of his movies. It raises an interesting complication... (even if I think it's a bit of a separate discussion)...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 02, 2016, 05:01:15 PM
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 02, 2016, 12:25:01 PM
Sorry, but I can't agree with this.

Wagner's music is the principal text. Its the thing that can't be substituted, or else Meistersinger isn't Meistersinger any more. Who does the sets and how, who does the costumes and how etc are secondary art forms to that. Soundtracks - even Star Wars - are secondary to the film, and while substituting one for another may be less helpful or incongrious in the film are not the principal artwork. Williams score is fine and certainly supported and added to the success of the film, but Star Wars would still be Star Wars - and Altered States would still be Altered States, much as I love that soundtrack - if Danny Elfman or Tangerine Dream scored them.


(I haven't read all 34 pages of this thread - I supose everything sensible and silly has already been said, including my comment)


But I can't agree with this either. Star Wars would not be Star Wars with different music . It might be great, but it would be different. I am reminded of a tv show called the Wonder Years. Do you know this? When initially it came out on video, they couldn't use most of the music in the series because they did not get permission. There was a huge outcry. Recently, the series was released with almost all the original music. Many viewers didn't feel it was the same series without the music. Now this isn't a case where the music was composed, but I think it is an apt analogy. It is an interesting question.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 02, 2016, 05:04:11 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 04:50:14 PM
So only Mozart is classical music?

That is an interesting and erroneous take-away.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 02, 2016, 05:05:37 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 02, 2016, 04:56:17 PM
Actually, Clint Eastwood writes the music to many of his movies. It raises an interesting complication... (even if I think it's a bit of a separate discussion)...

And Charlie Chaplin composed the music for Modern Times, e.g.!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: SimonNZ on January 02, 2016, 05:09:46 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 02, 2016, 05:01:15 PM
But I can't agree with this either. Star Wars would not be Star Wars with different music . It might be great, but it would be different. I am reminded of a tv show called the Wonder Years. Do you know this? When initially it came out on video, they couldn't use most of the music in the series because they did not get permission. There was a huge outcry. Recently, the series was released with almost all the original music. Many viewers didn't feel it was the same series without the music. Now this isn't a case where the music was composed, but I think it is an apt analogy. It is an interesting question.

But there are a number of films that exist with two different soundtracks - some with different soundtracks in different territories, some because one was replaced with another and/or later restored. Watching either version you'd say you'd seen the film. Legend is still Legend, Dune is still Dune, to give two examples, whichever soundtrack you prefer.

Also: I believe Lucas insisted on some changes to the scores for the rereleases etc, including removing the Ewoks "Yub Nub" festival song (can't believe I just typed that), and replacing it with more generic soundtrack mood-stuff.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 05:11:30 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 02, 2016, 05:04:11 PM
That is an interesting and erroneous take-away.
Isn't it? I'd say it was you who pushed me on that path... ...how else could I have responded to your Mozart logic?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 02, 2016, 05:18:13 PM
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 02, 2016, 05:09:46 PM
But there are a number of films that exist with two different soundtracks - some with different soundtracks in different territories, some because one was replaced with another and/or later restored. Watching either version you's say you'd seen the film. Legend is still Legend, Dune is still Dune, to give two examples, whichever soundtrack you prefer.

Also: I believe Lucas insisted on some changes to the scores for the rereleases etc, including removing the Ewoks "Yub Nub" festival song (can't believe I just typed that), and replacing it with more generic soundtrack mood-stuff.
I would say they are different though, even if both people saw the 'same' movie with different music. There is also a question of degree - for some movies the music is more important than others - for example, The Adventures of Robin Hood. I cannot imagine that movie with different music - the music helps make the music (and I think the score to Star Wars falls close to this too, just my opinion). But then there are other movies where it doesn't matter so much (maybe because there is less of it or it is more generic in nature). 

And I can't believe you just typed that either! :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 02, 2016, 05:20:18 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 02, 2016, 05:05:37 PM
And Charlie Chaplin composed the music for Modern Times, e.g.!
A good example. I wonder how many there are. I imagine it is a fairly small group as long as we are talking feature releases (or the like). I imagine that it is somewhat more common with independent filmmakers.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: James on January 02, 2016, 05:29:47 PM
Movie & Television audio-tracks aren't classical compositions, only a total retard would seriously think they are.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 05:34:10 PM
Quote from: James on January 02, 2016, 05:29:47 PM
Movie & Television audio-tracks aren't classical compositions, only a total retard would seriously think they are.
So when J. S. Bach's music is used in a film it's not classical composition? Kubrick's 2001 doesn't use classical music?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: SimonNZ on January 02, 2016, 05:34:21 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 02, 2016, 05:18:13 PM
I would say they are different though, even if both people saw the 'same' movie with different music. There is also a question of degree - for some movies the music is more important than others - for example, The Adventures of Robin Hood. I cannot imagine that movie with different music - the music helps make the music (and I think the score to Star Wars falls close to this too, just my opinion). But then there are other movies where it doesn't matter so much (maybe because there is less of it or it is more generic in nature). 

And I can't believe you just typed that either! :)

I don't disagree, but it doesn't contradict what I'm saying. Its like seeing two different Ring productions with different sets, costumes etc. You'll prefer one over the other and feel one adds more, but it won't stop it being The Ring. Because in this context these are secondary art forms in support of the principal art.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: James on January 02, 2016, 06:01:09 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 05:34:10 PM
So when J. S. Bach's music is used in a film it's not classical composition? Kubrick's 2001 doesn't use classical music?

Duh, well yeah that stuff is obviously sourced from that world but that's not the sort of thing we're talking about are we? Come on, wake up ..
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 02, 2016, 06:02:22 PM
Quote from: James on January 02, 2016, 05:29:47 PM
Movie & Television audio-tracks aren't classical compositions, only a total retard would seriously think they are.
Buzzer sound. Sorry, go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 02, 2016, 06:02:49 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 05:11:30 PM
Isn't it? I'd say it was you who pushed me on that path... ...how else could I have responded to your Mozart logic?
Well, Poju, we've discussed the matter several times over the years, and I've not succeeded in convincing you of my viewpoint, and I should know better than to expect sudden success now. So, I leave it be.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 02, 2016, 06:09:27 PM
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 02, 2016, 05:34:21 PM
I don't disagree, but it doesn't contradict what I'm saying. Its like seeing two different Ring productions with different sets, costumes etc. You'll prefer one over the other and feel one adds more, but it won't stop it being The Ring. Because in this context these are secondary art forms in support of the principal art.
I am not sure that analogy holds. The sets, costumes, etc. do not change the actual perception of the performance to the same degree. But changing the music in a film is a more serious change (to me) than changing the costumes. if you don't think so, then perhaps this is the core of our disagreement.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 02, 2016, 06:47:53 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 04:46:08 PM
How do you know? I think most votes came form "old timers".

Old timers ≠ professional classical musician.

Professional classical musicians, historians / musicologists: you know, the ones who write and edit the books like Groves, Harvard Dictionary of Music, The Larousse Encyclopedia of Music, and the like.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on January 02, 2016, 08:27:24 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 02, 2016, 04:31:00 PM
47.7 % agree with you in the beginners section of an online classical music forum the majority of whose members are dilettante and amateur classical music fans. I'm sure that makes you feel downright cozy about that empiric opinion being reinforced by that  47.7 %

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's mind there are few."
Shunryu Suzuki,  "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind."
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 02, 2016, 09:18:11 PM
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on January 02, 2016, 08:27:24 PM
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's mind there are few."
Shunryu Suzuki,  "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind."

I would bet a tolling bell that a Zen Master could and would discern the difference between a boulder and a pebble without a quiver of a qualm about having compromised his highest state of awareness. The Master would also be cognizant the boulder and the pebble were both the same material, formed by very similar forces and in very similar manners, and that each had different presences and energies.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on January 03, 2016, 01:41:11 AM
People say the music of Star Wars does not meet the requirement of classical music.

What exactly are those requirements? Do the worst operas and theatrical insidental music really meet those requirements? Does Ravel's Bolero meet them? Does Philip Glass' music meet them?

Quote from: James on January 02, 2016, 06:01:09 PM
Duh, well yeah that stuff is obviously sourced from that world but that's not the sort of thing we're talking about are we? Come on, wake up ..

Sorry but your cocky "statement" was lazy and I pointed it up. We are talking about the music in Star Wars movies, not "Movie & Television audio-tracks". Audio track is not the same thing as music soundtrack. Audio tracks contain the music plus a lot of other sounds like sound effects and dialogue.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on January 03, 2016, 07:58:24 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 02, 2016, 02:21:36 AM
Some 100 years ago a new art form was born. It's father was theatre and it's mother was opera. The father and mother were brought together by another relatively new invention: Photography.

When we look at soundtracks in movies, it's only logical that they are based on theatre and opera music. John Williams is Wagner of movies. How much do we demand from Wagner to be called classical music? How much do we demand from opera music in general to be called classical music? How much do we demand from Bizet's Carmen or Offenbach's Orphée aux enfers? How much do we demand from Carl Nielsen's theatre music?

In my opinion not counting Star Wars soundracks as classical music would logically lead to re-evaluation of a lot of opera and theatre music we have considered classical music.
+1
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on January 03, 2016, 08:09:06 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 02, 2016, 04:45:42 PM

That's the confusion. Composer of classical music is a factual description of Mozart; the matter of opinion doesn't enter into it.
How can this be a "factual description" of Mozart when the concept "classical music" hadn't been invented yet?  Remember, "classical" was a word that was only applied to Mozart et al in hindsight.  The most we can say factually was that Mozart was a composer of music that has been considered great music by many well-trained musicians and musicologists.

(Karl, you know I'm mostly on your side, so this is no attack but a real question.)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on January 03, 2016, 08:12:54 AM
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 02, 2016, 05:09:46 PM
...Also: I believe Lucas insisted on some changes to the scores for the rereleases etc, including removing the Ewoks "Yub Nub" festival song (can't believe I just typed that), and replacing it with more generic soundtrack mood-stuff.
Well, the Soviet authorities insisted on changes to Shostakovich's 13th Symphony "Babi Yar."  Now, the Soviets weren't involved with the actual creation of the symphony, but still, just because someone asks a composer to make changes, and he makes them, does not disqualify a composition from being classical music.  Otherwise most of Bruckner's symphonies would not count either. :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: James on January 03, 2016, 08:27:54 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 03, 2016, 01:41:11 AMSorry but your cocky "statement" was lazy and I pointed it up. We are talking about the music in Star Wars movies, not "Movie & Television audio-tracks". Audio track is not the same thing as music soundtrack. Audio tracks contain the music plus a lot of other sounds like sound effects and dialogue.

Wasn't being lazy just pointing out the obvious .. and exactly as you phrase 'music in' Star Wars .. precisely. Star Wars is lots else than just what JW did as you point out (i.e. sound effects, dialog). It is apart of the final audio mix that accompanies it's lavish visual story line, thus in the end, it is an audio track apart of the mix and nothing more. That is it's purpose & function for being, above all else. Quite clearly, not classical composition (which includes Opera), never has been, never will be. JW tried his hand at concert music and none of that really took off. Maybe he should try to write his very own opera or ballet and mount them in that context, to see whether or not he would measure up to a Wagner or Stravinsky musically. Good luck with that & keep dreamin'.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 03, 2016, 08:40:26 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on January 03, 2016, 08:09:06 AM
How can this be a "factual description" of Mozart when the concept "classical music" hadn't been invented yet?  Remember, "classical" was a word that was only applied to Mozart et al in hindsight.  The most we can say factually was that Mozart was a composer of music that has been considered great music by many well-trained musicians and musicologists.

(Karl, you know I'm mostly on your side, so this is no attack but a real question.)

Well, and in all events, I view this thread in the light of a discussion of ideas, so I should never take your question as any sort of attack.

I'll restrict myself to a brief observation, itself open to discussion, of course.  But my point (which does not really address your own excellent observations, jo) is that whether Mozart and John Williams belong in the same category, in overlapping categories, or in entirely distinct categories, that question will be determined (if it be determined) by reason, consideration, and consensus.  Mozart is not going to be a classical composer because I, a sole individual, decree so.

If others contest my decree, and I shrink back into the assertion (perfectly true) that Art is ever expanding, and something for which we shall never find a definition which is both satisfactory and true, I am not engaging the ambient questions, but just want my feelings, of what great stuff Mozart writes, validated by my personally insisting that he is a classical composer.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 03, 2016, 08:50:49 AM
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 02, 2016, 04:44:34 PM
Looking over the start of the thread I see this post (from 6 years ago) which expresses my position more eloquently than I am:

Thank you for your kind remark, and thank you too for reminding me of this post.

Quote from: karlhenning on November 11, 2009, 09:32:03 AM
I know you're asking that, prepared for an answer, rather than with the subtext, See? There is no answer . . . .

Once on a time I tried making my viewpoint reasonably plain.  Rather than try to re-construct those comments, here is a fresh expression:

I'm writing a ballet.  The duration of the ballet, the component scenes, the sequence, every bar of the music — that is all under the complete control of one person, and that one person is the composer (in this case, myself).

Name me a film where this was ever the case.

Now, one may object that I am working under atypical conditions:  there is as yet no stage director, no choreographer, with whom I am working, and these are people who normally have some input in various details of the music to a ballet.

Two answers:

1] When (as I hope, or we might say simply if) my piece reaches a point where a company will dance it, and the stage director or choreographer suggests cutting this, changing that, switching the order of these two numbers, taking this dance from Act IV and inserting it into Act II — I have the option of saying, No; this is the way I have written the ballet, and either you dance the piece the way I have written it, or you find some other ballet to do.

I ask again:  Where is the fellow who scored a film, who ever possessed a claim to that option?

2]  Even under more typical ballet-creation conditions, the composer has creative control over the final musical result, to a degree which is simply impossible in film.

You ask, How is film music different from music written to accompany a ballet?

Read Stravinsky's biography where he is working on Orpheus.  Then read Hitchcock's biography where he is working on Pyscho.  In the first case, Stravinsky is in the driver's seat;  in the second, Hitchcock.

Which of the two was a composer?

It is a question on which application of one's brain is not entirely a bad thing . . . .

I have not today Bowdlerized this post;  but I do wish, back when I first composed it, that I had removed even the odd hint of testiness in there, since of course it works against my argument.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on January 03, 2016, 09:01:50 AM
Quote from: James on January 03, 2016, 08:27:54 AMMaybe he should try to write his very own opera or ballet and mount them in that context, to see whether or not he would measure up to a Wagner or Stravinsky musically. Good luck with that & keep dreamin'.[/size][/font]
Why would John Williams need to measure up to a Wagner or Stravinsky musically? There are lesser composers and their output is classical music too.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: James on January 03, 2016, 09:02:11 AM
The attempt (more like desperately grasping for straws) by some here 'to imagine' a realistic, substantial & true parallel that audio presented within the art of film (yes, audio) is similar to staged classical ballet or opera is utterly ridiculous. It simply does not exist.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 03, 2016, 09:11:58 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 03, 2016, 09:01:50 AM
Why would John Williams need to measure up to a Wagner or Stravinsky musically? There are lesser composers and their output is classical music too.

This is a fair point.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: James on January 03, 2016, 09:31:20 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 03, 2016, 09:01:50 AMWhy would John Williams need to measure up to a Wagner or Stravinsky musically? There are lesser composers and their output is classical music too.

Audio tracks remember, just audio tracks, that is where it ends up, that is what it is made for, within a mix - it is not classical composition, including opera. HOWEVER if you're seriously going to call him a classical composer, in the true sense of that - then he should earn his place within it's History like Wagner and Stravinsky did. Two very respected & innovative musicians. So if you're going to give what he does the kind of artistic merit you think it does have, and what the legacy is built upon, than he should divorce himself from all that stuff found in a movie and write for the stage to see what he's made of. Let him write an opera or ballet. You see, he isn't the Wagner of film, there is no such thing. And if there is .. than it would be folks like Hitchcock or Stanley Kubrick.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on January 03, 2016, 09:40:24 AM
Quote from: James on January 03, 2016, 09:31:20 AM
Audio tracks remember, just audio tracks, that is where it ends up, that is what it is made for, within a mix - it is not classical composition, including opera.
I don't get your audio track talk. Movie soundtracks are sold as their own. Have you ever listened to a Star Wars soundtrack?

HOWEVER if you're seriously going to call him a classical composer, in the true sense of that - then he should earn his place within it's History like Wagner and Stravinsky did. Two very respected & innovative musicians. [/QUOTE]

I wouldn't be worried about that. It's possible in the future the music of John Williams is more popular than Wagner.

Quote from: James on January 03, 2016, 09:31:20 AMSo if you're going to give what he does the kind of artistic merit you think it does have, and what the legacy is built upon, than he should divorce himself from all that stuff found in a movie and write for the stage to see what he's made of. Let him write an opera or ballet. You see, he isn't the Wagner of film, there is no such thing. And if there is .. than it would be folks like Hitchcock or Stanley Kubrick.[/size][/font]

If John Williams is not the Wagner of movies, who is?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 03, 2016, 09:45:52 AM
It's possible that Jn Williams's music is already more popular than Wagner's.

Popularity isn't really the metric, is it?  8)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 03, 2016, 09:48:14 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 03, 2016, 09:40:24 AM
If John Williams is not the Wagner of movies, who is?

For Jn Williams to be the Wagner of movies, he would need to write his own script, direct the cinematography, compose the soundtrack, and have control over the final cut.  That ain't John Williams.

Maybe Charlie Chaplin was the Wagner of movies.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on January 03, 2016, 10:08:31 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 03, 2016, 09:48:14 AM
For Jn Williams to be the Wagner of movies, he would need to write his own script, direct the cinematography, compose the soundtrack, and have control over the final cut.  That ain't John Williams.

Maybe Charlie Chaplin was the Wagner of movies.

How about the Bizet of movies?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: James on January 03, 2016, 10:21:53 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 03, 2016, 09:40:24 AM
I don't get your audio track talk. Movie soundtracks are sold as their own. Have you ever listened to a Star Wars soundtrack?

I wouldn't be worried about that. It's possible in the future the music of John Williams is more popular than Wagner.

If John Williams is not the Wagner of movies, who is?

I already answered your last question. Film is largely a collaborative effort, however the Film's Director is the center of that (the creative end), and if the studio he works for trusts him enough, he has the final say regarding it's audio/visual mix & cut. The bottom line is that the music JW creates is for the audio mix of the film to accompany the visual story (the Director's Vision). He is apart of the film world, and that art. And yes, a soundtrack CD, LP, download etc.. is often up for sale as a piece of film merchandise too .. all kinds of films, with all kinds of music. Just because that is done, doesn't mean one is a legitimate classical composer in a true sense either.

Quote from: 71 dB on January 03, 2016, 09:40:24 AMIt's possible in the future the music of John Williams is more popular than Wagner.

But never included or as important to the History of Classical music of course.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on January 03, 2016, 11:47:14 AM
Quote from: James on January 03, 2016, 10:21:53 AM
...Film is largely a collaborative effort....m
So is opera and ballet.
Quote from: James on January 03, 2016, 10:21:53 AM
But never included or as important to the History of Classical music of course.
None of us can know that yet, not until it happens.  It is possible that in the future, film will be recognized as just as much a lasting and significant art form as opera, ballet, or symphonies etc.  Or not.  Who could have predicted that, say, the operas of Wagner would eclipse the ones of Rimsky-Korsakov despite the latter's abundance of good music?  And before anyone says anything, Rimsky-Korsakov, around the turn of the 20th century, was considered one of the greatest of all composers.  (That shows how tastes and even scholarship change.)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: James on January 03, 2016, 12:01:54 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on January 03, 2016, 11:47:14 AMSo is opera and ballet.None of us can know that yet, not until it happens.  It is possible that in the future, film will be recognized as just as much a lasting and significant art form as opera, ballet, or symphonies etc.  Or not.  Who could have predicted that, say, the operas of Wagner would eclipse the ones of Rimsky-Korsakov despite the latter's abundance of good music?  And before anyone says anything, Rimsky-Korsakov, around the turn of the 20th century, was considered one of the greatest of all composers.  (That shows how tastes and even scholarship change.)

LOL. Keep on grasping at straws ...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on January 03, 2016, 12:17:22 PM
Quote from: James on January 03, 2016, 12:01:54 PM
LOL. Keep on grasping at straws ...
Oh, I'm not the one grasping at anything. :blank:
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: James on January 03, 2016, 12:19:02 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on January 03, 2016, 12:17:22 PM
Oh, I'm not the one grasping at anything. :blank:

You just keep on telling yourself that.   ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on January 03, 2016, 12:27:21 PM
*stops feeding troll*
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on January 03, 2016, 01:06:53 PM
Quote from: James on January 03, 2016, 10:21:53 AM
I already answered your last question. Film is largely a collaborative effort, however the Film's Director is the center of that (the creative end), and if the studio he works for trusts him enough, he has the final say regarding it's audio/visual mix & cut. The bottom line is that the music JW creates is for the audio mix of the film to accompany the visual story (the Director's Vision). He is apart of the film world, and that art. And yes, a soundtrack CD, LP, download etc.. is often up for sale as a piece of film merchandise too .. all kinds of films, with all kinds of music. Just because that is done, doesn't mean one is a legitimate classical composer in a true sense either.

This isn't entirely true...John Williams does have an opinion and a voice that might differ with the director.  There are few people on earth more experienced than he is now at working in film.  Remember that Spielberg wanted Jaws to have a more horror sound where Williams said that's not what the film is about...its an adventure at sea movie so played more like a pirate score with sea shanties, etc.  But generally, yes, you're right...the composer is hired to execute the director's intent and Williams is exceptionally collaborative in helping execute to that vision (even if the director doesn't quite know it).

A question...what if a composer receives a commission by a soloist and the soloist does not get what they wanted (eg: fires the composer), the composer is still highly regarded, just failed to deliver the work they were expected to do (Berlioz Harold in Italy for example or Ravel's Concerto for the Left Hand).  My point is that these composers are hired to execute someone else's creative intent and expected to deliver on that expectation.  Their skills, imagination, talent, and craft are poured into completing someone else's desire.  The composer might not even like the work or the intent behind it (Shostakovich writing an ode to Stalin or Nazi's for instance) but they are still composers of great repute...perhaps not as substantial in the history books as Wagner and Stravinsky, but still highly regarded and influential.  Composers are very much reliant on fulfilling the intention of the hiring person/institution or audience.  The image of the crazy composer who writes his art regardless of everyone else is just not realistic today.  Sure, composers have a sound and style that should be unique to them but John Williams definitely qualifies there.

To me, John Williams is an exceptionally skilled and talented composer who made his living as a film composer.  History will most likely see him as a very popular and influential composer who mostly wrote for film but also other genre's like ceremonial/occasional music and concert stage.   He is also a "bridging" composer introducing many people to classical music through his film scores or ceremonial pieces (myself for instance and many people of my age range).  Shostakovitch wrote more film music than any other genre, but he is remembered as a concert composer who wrote alot of film scores too.  I think the difference comes down more to how posterity regards their legacy than the medium they mostly wrote for.  Was it true that in Bach's time, his reputation was mostly on organ performance than as a composer of serious art music?   Sorry if that is an ignorant question but I ask it sincerely but I understood he was considered trivial in his day and was not lauded till 19th century.

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on January 03, 2016, 01:22:10 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 03, 2016, 01:06:53 PM
...Was it true that in Bach's time, his reputation was mostly on organ performance than as a composer of serious art music?   Sorry if that is an ignorant question but I ask it sincerely but I understood he was considered trivial in his day and was not lauded till 19th century.
No, it was very true.  St. Thomaskirche in Leipzig wanted Telemann to be the church music director but had to "settle" for Bach.  That may be, though, because Bach's reputation was still developing while Telemann's was already well established.  Late in Bach's life, Frederick the Great himself thought very highly of Bach, exclaiming when he heard of his arrival, "Gentlemen, old Bach has come!" ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: SimonNZ on January 03, 2016, 01:26:47 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 03, 2016, 01:06:53 PM

   He is also a "bridging" composer introducing many people to classical music through his film scores or ceremonial pieces (myself for instance and many people of my age range). 


See, part of the problem for me is that I haven't noticed that being true at all. And noting how massively popular the Star Wars franchise has been for near forty years, and how widely underappreciated and unknown classical remains, only reinforces my suspicion that the general soundtrack fan doesn't consider themselves a part of the classical listening world, or have any desire to explore. I most certainly haven't seen it at any point in my life with the hundreds of Star Wars fans I've known.

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on January 03, 2016, 01:36:05 PM
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 03, 2016, 01:26:47 PM
See, part of the problem for me is that I haven't noticed that being true at all. And noting how massively popular the Star Wars franchise has been for near forty years, and how widely underappreciated and unknown classical remains, only reinforces my suspicion that the general soundtrack fan doesn't consider themselves a part of the classical listening world, or have any desire to explore. I most certainly haven't seen it at any point in my life with the hundreds of Star Wars fans I've known.

I can tell you many, many stories of professional performers with major symphonies that are absolutely gobsmacked to perform under Williams because they grew up with his tunes and consider themselves musicians because of it.  I played with an orchestra a week after they played an all Williams concert with him conducting.  They were all like kids in a candy shop saying what a unique experience that was and a true highlight for themselves and the audience.  These same musicians tend to be slightly dismissive of modern composers so I believed this was very sincere adulation I had not previously seen from them.  The concert sold out in a day which is not common.  I heard similar stories in studios and other orchestras too...he is very highly revered by many professionals because they found their way to music through his music.   Some audiences that never go to classical concerts go to these concerts and hear a symphony for the first time there and do find it something worth exploring further.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: SimonNZ on January 03, 2016, 01:47:29 PM
Well, okay, its nice if they are delighted to work with him - though that didn't really address anything in my post - and adding "these same musicians tend to be slightly dismissive of modern composers" kind of detracts from the argument of situating Williams somewhere in the classical zeitgeist.

What are these Williams fans going on to explore? Is it in any way measurable? Because I've read many threads and had many conversations about how people got into classical, and "bridging" soundtracks never enter into it in my experience. I'm almost prepared to say that soundtracks create a false expectation of classical, especially modern classical: that its going to be sweet, catchy-melody-driven, in brief easily digested morsels and requires little effort or repeated exposure - and that conditioning is in fact creating an inevitable frustration.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 03, 2016, 02:16:01 PM
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 03, 2016, 01:47:29 PM
Well, okay, its nice if they are delighted to work with him - though that didn't really address anything in my post - and adding "these same musicians tend to be slightly dismissive of modern composers" kind of detracts from the argument of situating Williams somewhere in the classical zeitgeist.

He is said to be a very nice man, and I do not at all doubt it.

I agree with your latter point.  "You've written something we can hum! You are a great composer!"
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: James on January 03, 2016, 03:13:02 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 03, 2016, 01:06:53 PMBut generally, yes, you're right...the composer is hired to execute the director's intent and Williams is exceptionally collaborative in helping execute to that vision (even if the director doesn't quite know it).

And a lot of director's won't tolerate too much bickering/conflict from a composer. It is why some of the best of them don't even bother hiring a composer and use source music instead, or even write/ad lib their own to support the visual story they got. And ultimately what is created/used musically is apart of a grander audio mix.

Quote from: relm1 on January 03, 2016, 01:06:53 PMA question...what if a composer receives a commission by a soloist and the soloist does not get what they wanted.

They all aren't winners, and there is a difference here in it's genesis/use though. And if we're talking at the highest levels of music making/composition, a international soloist of reputation within the world of classical music usually turns to a composer of contemporary classical music who has earned their place within this context, having a voice earned within classical composition, not film. Perhaps great soloists have turned to JW for a concerto and the results have been mediocre?

Quote from: relm1 on January 03, 2016, 01:06:53 PMSure, composers have a sound and style that should be unique to them but John Williams definitely qualifies there.

Outside of the films and film world that gave him notoriety/popularity, not really. He's part of the film world, not the classical one. On top of this, few, if any major contemporary classical composers would ever wax poetically about JW as a serious composer of highly distinctive art/classical music. He has been great for Hollywood, Spielberg & Lucas they may say, but as a composer of classical compositions, operas or ballets? Nah. If anything, they'll hear where he is pulling his stuff from and bitch and moan about that.

Quote from: relm1 on January 03, 2016, 01:06:53 PMHe is also a "bridging" composer introducing many people to classical music through his film scores or ceremonial pieces (myself for instance and many people of my age range).

I doubt that seriously. And if people who don't know a thing about classical music listen to his soundtrack albums, put out by the company, thinking that it is representative of what classical music is about, they'll be sadly mistaken and gravely misinformed.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on January 03, 2016, 04:16:09 PM
Quote from: James on January 03, 2016, 03:13:02 PM
And a lot of director's won't tolerate too much bickering/conflict from a composer. It is why some of the best of them don't even bother hiring a composer and use source music instead, or even write/ad lib their own to support the visual story they got. And ultimately what is created/used musically is apart of a grander audio mix.

Who said it's bickering/conflict?  I am talking about a composer who is exceptionally accomplished giving an opinion that would be foolish to ignore.  Rarely there is the Kubrick who is so complete a visionary that only classical giants could score their pictures, but most of the time are ego maniacal divas who think because they have garage band that they are musicians.  These are probably the directors who tell an actor where and when to take a breath when delivering a line even if it's Deniro.

Quote from: James on January 03, 2016, 03:13:02 PM
They all aren't winners, and there is a difference here in it's genesis/use though. And if we're talking at the highest levels of music making/composition, a international soloist of reputation within the world of classical music usually turns to a composer of contemporary classical music who has earned their place within this context, having a voice earned within classical composition, not film. Perhaps great soloists have turned to JW for a concerto and the results have been mediocre?

Fair point but don't forget you are describing the reputation and popular opinion here which Williams has earned.  We classical music lovers are the fringe connoisseurs.  You also are using a straw man logical fallacy in support of your argument.  "having a voice earned within classical composition, not film" forgets that many great classical composers where dismissed in their day by the bourgeois.

Quote from: James on January 03, 2016, 03:13:02 PM
Outside of the films and film world that gave him notoriety/popularity, not really. He's part of the film world, not the classical one. On top of this, few, if any major contemporary classical composers would ever wax poetically about JW as a serious composer of highly distinctive art/classical music. He has been great for Hollywood, Spielberg & Lucas they may say, but as a composer of classical compositions, operas or ballets? Nah. If anything, they'll hear where he is pulling his stuff from and bitch and moan about that.

Fair point.  True, he is a big part of some circles of film music.  He is also reviled by other circles since some see him as "old school and too classical rather than in touch with the trends". 

Regarding "On top of this, few, if any major contemporary classical composers would ever wax poetically about JW as a serious composer of highly distinctive art/classical music.", how do you define "major contemporary classical composers"?  I know some Pulitzer prize winning composers who rave about him and his influence on them.  Also, don't disregard that a composer in their youth might admire a composer they later reject because they have gained their own distinctiveness.  Most composers imitate their idols when they are learning their skills but hopefully their individuality emerges.  Name a composer where this was not the case.   

Quote from: James on January 03, 2016, 03:13:02 PM
I doubt that seriously. And if people who don't know a thing about classical music listen to his soundtrack albums, put out by the company, thinking that it is representative of what classical music is about, they'll be sadly mistaken and gravely misinformed.

This is a limited view of classical music that it is not something that can speak to a broad contemporary audience and I fundamentally disagree with you since this is my profession.  I believe new music still has something relevant to say.  It might not be immediately transparent but like Stravinsky said, "music more than any other art form rewards effort".   I will also add that a connoisseur has evolved taste that the general population might lack.  This doesn't mean it is trivial, just that it speaks to a more limited audience.   Mcdonalds outsells fancy beef restaurants but a connoisseur will know the difference.  Most people won't care.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on January 18, 2016, 03:52:07 PM
Quote from: James on January 03, 2016, 03:13:02 PM
I doubt that seriously. And if people who don't know a thing about classical music listen to his soundtrack albums, put out by the company, thinking that it is representative of what classical music is about, they'll be sadly mistaken and gravely misinformed.

Film Concerts Live notes that 75 percent of its audience never had seen a live orchestra.
http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/magazine-feature/6843746/jurassic-park-orchestral-concert-treatment-theaters
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 20, 2016, 11:09:14 PM
Listens to the sound tracks from Star Wars, thinks they're classical music.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: vandermolen on January 21, 2016, 10:55:20 AM
I was listening to BBC Radio 3 in the car this morning and was enjoying a piece of music which was unknown to me. At one point it occurred to me that it sounded a bit like film music. Anyway, it turned out to be from 'Attack of the Clones'. It certainly sounded like a classical work and I greatly enjoyed it. Mind you, the 'Parade of the Ewoks' from Star Wars: 'Return of the Jedi' seems to have been filched from the March from Prokofiev's 'Love of Three Oranges'.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Cato on January 22, 2016, 06:23:03 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 21, 2016, 10:55:20 AM
I was listening to BBC Radio 3 in the car this morning and was enjoying a piece of music which was unknown to me. At one point it occurred to me that it sounded a bit like film music. Anyway, it turned out to be from 'Attack of the Clones'. It certainly sounded like a classical work and I greatly enjoyed it. Mind you, the 'Parade of the Ewoks' from Star Wars: 'Return of the Jedi' seems to have been filched from the March from Prokofiev's 'Love of Three Oranges'.

This reminded me of a famous story:

QuoteOn receiving an Academy Award in 1955 for The High and the Mighty, Dimitri Tiomkin began his acceptance speech by saying "I would like to thank Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner, Strauss, Rimsky-Korsakov." That the audience greeted this as a joke and roared with laughter accordingly is not surprising, for Tiomkin, his pronounced Russian accent untouched by years in America, enjoyed a reputation as a flamboyant, larger-than-life character. Nor is it surprising that Tiomkin should protest that he was, in fact, deadly serious, for though he was the consummate Hollywood professional, his roots, like so many Hollywood composers of his generation, belonged in the European classical tradition.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: kishnevi on January 22, 2016, 06:35:06 PM
May I point out that Williams's film scores are performed by orchestras?

Which all by itself means it is far closer to classical music than 99% of what is on the radio these days


And if it gets people to explore "real" classical music, why not?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: SimonNZ on January 22, 2016, 08:08:10 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 22, 2016, 06:35:06 PM
May I point out that Williams's film scores are performed by orchestras?

Which all by itself means it is far closer to classical music than 99% of what is on the radio these days


And if it gets people to explore "real" classical music, why not?

Just a few posts up on this page I suggested that based on my conversations, on anecdotes and on my reading on sites like this I felt that the idea of soundtracks as a gateway to classical was a myth. I contrasted the massive forty-year popularity of Star Wars with the still niche field of classical. I also said that soundtracks create a false and frustrating expectation of classical which in fact has the opposite effect. You disagree? What fuels this belief?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: kishnevi on January 22, 2016, 08:22:08 PM
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 22, 2016, 08:08:10 PM
Just a few posts up on this page I suggested that based on my conversations, on anecdotes and on my reading on sites like this I felt that the idea of soundtracks as a gateway to classical was a myth. I contrasted the massive forty-year popularity of Star Wars with the still niche field of classical. I also said that soundtracks create a false and frustrating expectation of classical which in fact has the opposite effect. You disagree? What fuels this belief?

You may be right. But I don't think we should rule Star Wars music out.  Look at this forum: it includes everything from Perotin to Xenakis (and beyond).   I think you will agree with me that those film scores have more in common with a Beethoven symphony or Rachmaninov concerto than anything Perotin and Xenakis wrote. So if they are classical music, in its extended sense, shouldn't Star Wars?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: SimonNZ on January 22, 2016, 08:29:30 PM
Just Star Wars? Or all "orchestral" soundtracks? Or all specifically John Williams soundtracks?

edit: heck, I may as well even ask: each/all of the seven SW film soundtracks?

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on January 23, 2016, 12:08:21 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 22, 2016, 08:22:08 PM
I think you will agree with me that those film scores have more in common with a Beethoven symphony or Rachmaninov concerto than anything Perotin and Xenakis wrote. So if they are classical music, in its extended sense, shouldn't Star Wars?

Exactly.  :)

I am listening to Yves Prin's Ephémères while writing this and I don't know why it is classical music, but Star Wars soundtracks aren't. Scores by John Williams are more entertaining (for most people at least), but so is a lot of classical music, especially opera and operette music.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 23, 2016, 12:13:22 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 22, 2016, 06:35:06 PM
May I point out that Williams's film scores are performed by orchestras?

Which all by itself means it is far closer to classical music than 99% of what is on the radio these days.

Sure, you're correct that film scores are often a person's first exposure to the sound of a well-handled and performed symphonic ensemble. "Far closer to classical," yes, but no... So much of the expertly written film score material is, though 'original' a rehash of an earlier, and more 'original' classical work.

Instruments are neutral. and don't really define a genre.

If a grand piano is involved, would that automatically turn whatever genre of music is played on it, popular contemporary new-age, jazz, boogie-woogie, ragtime, etc. into "classical?"

Ditto for all instruments, a clarinet and violin can be and are used in Kletzmer and Bluegrass, the bands playing a Broadway musical, Some big band swing era music, and Classical.

It is what kind of music the instrument plays that makes for one genre category or another.


Best regards.

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: The new erato on January 23, 2016, 12:28:05 AM
I absolutely cannot fathom why this discussion is important or interesting enough to turn this into a thread of 38 pages ??!!????

I'll echo the Bard " A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet" - or in this case foul - according to you inclinations, the point being that the naming doesn't matter one bit.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: North Star on January 23, 2016, 12:31:50 AM
Notwithstanding my agreement with erato...

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 22, 2016, 08:22:08 PM
You may be right. But I don't think we should rule Star Wars music out.  Look at this forum: it includes everything from Perotin to Xenakis (and beyond).   I think you will agree with me that those film scores have more in common with a Beethoven symphony or Rachmaninov concerto than anything Perotin and Xenakis wrote. So if they are classical music, in its extended sense, shouldn't Star Wars?
Using that argument, pretty much all music should be called classical music.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: SimonNZ on January 23, 2016, 12:36:35 AM
Quote from: The new erato on January 23, 2016, 12:28:05 AM
I absolutely cannot fathom why this discussion is important or interesting enough to turn this into a thread of 38 pages ??!!????


Because "practice makes perfect" in a number of ways.

It's an idea that's going to be put to us again and again - not only the soundtrack thing, but the whole What Is Classical thing - and its kinda useful to test and refine the counter arguments into something close to a succinct one post reply, rather than a flailing inexact unconvincing multi-post argument. And its interesting to see what doesn't work and why, and becoming ever more clear about why we believe what we believe.

Plus there's always the possibility of hearing some unknown angle we hadn't considered, and maybe even being persuaded.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on January 23, 2016, 01:43:46 AM
Quote from: North Star on January 23, 2016, 12:31:50 AM
Using that argument, pretty much all music should be called classical music.

Don't be silly. Nobody is suggesting Michael Jackson is classical music. I wouldn't even call a lot of orchestral movie soundtracks classical music, but John Williams has made some soundtracks (typically for movies with fantasy elements) which are classical music imo.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 23, 2016, 03:34:00 AM
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 22, 2016, 08:08:10 PM
Just a few posts up on this page.... I said that soundtracks create a false and frustrating expectation of classical which in fact has the opposite effect. You disagree? What fuels this belief?

Many a film score adheres to the criteria of formulaic pop tune construction:
~ An immediate presentation of something very catchy to the ear which then quite carries the listener along, taking no real time and demanding no real active concentration from the audience.
~ Severe brevity of length / duration.
~ Lots of wholesale repetition.
Film score segments very rarely have a duration even as long as the average pop songs aired on AM radio, pop songs running to near three minutes, often a bit less and rarely longer. The general sole exception to that running time in film music is the scoring under the opening or closing credits. Those may be like an overture, a potpourri of the main themes from the various segments.

Since film score segments run under or around a loose maximum of two plus or minus minutes, anyone with a steady listening habit within the genres brief pop songs and film scores can easily become accustomed to expect being instantly and somewhat passively entertained. The expectation of all being said and done within that brief length of time can get quite set, and later 'be in the way' of their comfortably following a three movement, twenty to thirty minutes long classical symphony.

Williams' music for the segment where Harry Potter rides a Hippogriff, scoring which accompanies a round-trip flight, lasts all of 01:37 [in this clip, from 02:05 - 03:42]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKbr3o36IpY
Contrast that to the time frame in which Wagner's Prelude to Das Rheingold, takes to unfold; this is one sustained chord with a rolling orchestral texture lasting ca. 04:20, i.e. just warming up before anything remotely 'catchy' is going to grab the listener.
Q: How many round trips can Harry make on the Hippogriff during the time it takes Wagner's  136 measure long orchestral drone introduction to arrive at the point where the Rhine maidens begin to sing?
A:  ca. 2.4763 round trips.


Williams' Star Wars Concert Suite lasts about 17:00, with only the final segment which includes a bit of re-writing and extension, mainly through repetition, at around 05:00. The balance of its few other segments, again via using a fair amount of repetition and bits of new bridging material, each run between 03:00 to about 04:00.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEneq8fKpQw

Bernard Herrmann's theme music for North by Northwest is a brilliant display of great and catchy film scoring.  The theme catchy and its hemiola rhythm compellingly moves it right along. After a ca. 15 second intro the two-bar theme is stated, a complete head and tail unit, one bar for each. Herrmann repeats the two bar theme about 50 times over the course of its following next 03 minutes; it is constantly refreshed via very slight variations in the second of its two measures, and he strongly varies the orchestration each repetition, the timbrel texture constantly shifting. No wonder anyone who hears it will walk away from the film remembering that music -- they heard that two-bar theme about 50 times over the course of 03 minutes!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjkjF9OfMe0

This manner of composing relies upon an up front and quick hit attention grabber and lot of near literal repetition of those catchy themes over the brief course of but a few minutes. I should mention here that those more contemporary textural 'mood' bits of a score, more effect than catchy theme, also usually run no more than a couple of minutes.

This makes for a conditioning and expectations of what music 'usually is.' No other manner of listening is demanded when listening to those concert suites of film scores either, with their also brief and highly repetitive segments. Compare that to what a listener has to 'follow' in a Mozart piano concerto, with its double exposition before the soloist enters adding more activity and point of focus for the listener...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMjzPJacd6g
The exposition here is brief enough, ca. 02:40, then the piano enters. The first movement, without close together repetitions, progresses via developments and variations upon the basic subject matter / themes / tunes, and runs a total of ca 14:00, that duration already closing in on the last three minutes of the Star Wars concert suite, while the concerto has two more movements to go, all three movements clocking in at ca. 30:00.

Certainly, some who have come to classical with that acquired pop-film score listening habit to 'classical like' or other music, will have enough of an innate interest in the classical sound-world and will find that alluring enough to completely hold them through the very different musical terrain that is classical. For many others with the same habit of listening to the instantly catchy, highly repetitive pop and film score genres, well, Houston, there might just be a rather big attention span problem. (A.S.P.)


Best regards.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Szykneij on January 23, 2016, 09:04:03 AM
I attended a concert last night that included Grieg's "Peer Gynt Suite" and Haydn's Symphony No. 100 ("Military"), as well as John Williams' "Harry Potter Symphonic Suite" and "Viktor's Tale" from "The Terminal" (a very engaging clarinet solo piece). Without getting into semantics, it was an enjoyable listening experience and a program that did not sound the least bit incongruous.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: North Star on January 23, 2016, 09:11:38 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 23, 2016, 03:34:00 AM
Many a film score adheres to the criteria of formulaic pop tune construction:
~ An immediate presentation of something very catchy to the ear which then quite carries the listener along, taking no real time and demanding no real active concentration from the audience.
~ Severe brevity of length / duration.
~ Lots of wholesale repetition.
Film score segments very rarely have a duration even as long as the average pop songs aired on AM radio, pop songs running to near three minutes, often a bit less and rarely longer. The general sole exception to that running time in film music is the scoring under the opening or closing credits. Those may be like an overture, a potpourri of the main themes from the various segments.
That might as well be a description of a ballet or an opera score.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 23, 2016, 10:13:42 AM
Quote from: The new erato on January 23, 2016, 12:28:05 AM
I absolutely cannot fathom why this discussion is important or interesting enough to turn this into a thread of 38 pages ??!!????

I'll echo the Bard " A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet" - or in this case foul - according to you inclinations, the point being that the naming doesn't matter one bit.
That's because the argument is really about something else...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: amw on January 23, 2016, 02:12:33 PM
Quote from: Szykneij on January 23, 2016, 09:04:03 AM
I attended a concert last night that included Grieg's "Peer Gynt Suite" and Haydn's Symphony No. 100 ("Military"), as well as John Williams' "Harry Potter Symphonic Suite" and "Viktor's Tale" from "The Terminal" (a very engaging clarinet solo piece). Without getting into semantics, it was an enjoyable listening experience and a program that did not sound the least bit incongruous.
A "symphonic suite" or "concert paraphrase" or whatever derived from a film score is definitely classical music. I mean, it's being played in a classical concert as a continuous span of independent music, not as a cue for a film.

Film music is just a different art form. It's like asking if a play is a kind of movie. Um... no. It's a play. It might contain the same material, but it's its own thing. Debate over? I guess not.

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 23, 2016, 10:13:42 AM
That's because the argument is really about something else...
+1. Obviously film scores aren't classical, and classical isn't a film score. Why this has gone on for 38 pages is because of low art/high art stuff, I think.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 23, 2016, 03:15:57 PM
Quote from: amw on January 23, 2016, 02:12:33 PM
A "symphonic suite" or "concert paraphrase" or whatever derived from a film score is definitely classical music. I mean, it's being played in a classical concert as a continuous span of independent music, not as a cue for a film.

Film music is just a different art form. It's like asking if a play is a kind of movie. Um... no. It's a play. It might contain the same material, but it's its own thing. Debate over? I guess not.
+1. Obviously film scores aren't classical, and classical isn't a film score. Why this has gone on for 38 pages is because of low art/high art stuff, I think.

I agree with most of this. Environment means everything. However one esteems John Williams or not (and I think he's a capable purveyor of effective music for the kinds of movies he scores), in the film environment his scores play a supporting function rather than the central role they would in the concert hall.

As I said perhaps five years ago on this thread, you can take music that works very well in a film, transplant it to the concert hall, and it can be thin and ineffective. Case in point: the NY Phil did a concert of film music that was telecast a couple of years ago; it was organized by Alec Baldwin, Martin Scorsese spoke, and one expected great things. But the Nino Rota music for the final scene of Fellini's 8 1/2, which I find delightful in the film, had little impact on its own.

Sometimes a concert suite derived from a film can make its mark as classical music, the best case I know being Prokofiev's score for Eisenstein's Alexander Nevsky, which comes into its own when heard as a concert work in a way that I didn't find as striking in the film. (Notoriously, the score in the film was poorly recorded too, with a pitifully small instrumental ensemble.) I don't think either that Williams's scores become classical music just because a symphony orchestra plays them. They still are pretty much in a popular idiom. The score for Jacques Demy's The Umbrellas of Cherbourg, a rare example of a film whose dialogue is set entirely to music, doesn't qualify in my mind as "opera" either; again it is written in a basically popular idiom.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 23, 2016, 06:37:05 PM
Quote from: North Star on January 23, 2016, 09:11:38 AM
That might as well be a description of a ballet or an opera score.

^The 150% predictable rebuttal; you forgot the other 150% predictable rebuttal, "Classical composer's incidental music for plays."

With all the back and forth argumentative points that are raised by the OP, it is a heavy irony that most film score composers do not identify themselves as other than film score composers, because they very well know the difference between straight-ahead classical and what they write for films.
It is almost always the less experienced listener who readily thinks of film scores, "Oh, it sounds like classical. It must be classical."

Listen to the complete original soundtrack of Star Wars, or the Star Wars concert suite.
Then listen to Ralph Vaughan Williams' original sound track from Scott of the Antarctic and compare it to 'the suite' he made from it, his Sinfonia antartica.

Listen to the complete original soundtrack of Star Wars, or the Star Wars concert suite -- doesn't really matter which -- next to:
Stravinsky ~ Petrushka / Le Sacre du Printemps / Les Noces / Orpheus, the complete ballets, not the suites.

Ravel ~ Daphnis et Chloe

Debussy ~ Jeux

Listen to Bernard Herrmann's Theme music from North by Northwest next to:
Mozart ~ Overture to Marriage of Figaro

If, after some serious hours and hours of listening to classical in general, the listener can not discern some very major differences between what they hear in almost all sound track scores and 'classical,' they need more hours and days and years of listening to heaps of classical, because that is how one learns to make the distinction between the genre and film score 'classical like' music.


Best regards.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 23, 2016, 09:37:15 PM
Quote from: amw on January 23, 2016, 02:12:33 PM
A "symphonic suite" or "concert paraphrase" or whatever derived from a film score is definitely classical music. I mean, it's being played in a classical concert as a continuous span of independent music, not as a cue for a film.
Well, no. Just no. Your construct is a model of rationale, not logic.

Quote from: amw on January 23, 2016, 02:12:33 PMFilm music is just a different art form.
That is much more like it. Suites from that different art form are most often not classical, regardless of the performing ensemble, their stage costume, or the venue.

Quote from: amw link=topic=15153.msg949517#msg949517 date=1453590753'b]Obviously film scores aren't classical, and classical isn't a film score.[/b] Why this has gone on for 38 pages is because of low art/high art stuff, I think.
How does this hold up against the rationale in your first above quoted paragraph? I.e. there, cleaning up the film score, putting it in a tux, letting it out on stage in a 'classical music venue' is based upon only the context of where it is performed... and that somehow alters its genre? Isn't it still film music and not classical, dressed up for a night out? The clothing is not the music, lol. What you first said is obvious is not, it seems, as obvious even to you.

High middle low is far less the point than discerning distinct genres, like recognizing one novel as literature, another good novel as a more popular thing, or distinguishing the difference between a novel, a graphic novel, and a comic book. Any of those can be excellent; they're just fairly distinct genres.

Setting the graphic novel or the comic book on the shelves where literature like Balzac, etc. are housed does not change the graphic novel or comic book into that other genre of literature, any more than a film score suite transported to a live venue concert hall where classical is usually performed becomes, magically by context of where it is performed, other than film music.

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on January 24, 2016, 01:05:35 AM
Quote from: amw on January 23, 2016, 02:12:33 PM

+1. Obviously film scores aren't classical, and classical isn't a film score.

Have you ever seen a Kubrick movie?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: The new erato on January 24, 2016, 01:25:48 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 24, 2016, 01:05:35 AM
Have you ever seen a Kubrick movie?
The music in Kubrick movies weren't composed for them, only used by a savy director, so obviously falls outside this discussion.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: amw on January 24, 2016, 02:04:01 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 23, 2016, 09:37:15 PM
How does this hold up against the rationale in your first above quoted paragraph? I.e. there, cleaning up the film score, putting it in a tux, letting it out on stage in a 'classical music venue' is based upon only the context of where it is performed... and that somehow alters its genre? Isn't it still film music and not classical, dressed up for a night out?
It's all just fucking music. Whether it's film, classical, jazz, rap or gagaku, while there may be certain stylistic conventions or whatever, the only actual difference is in how it's put together. Film scores are written differently from classical scores. But arranging a film score into a classical score is certainly possible? Like it's not a film score if there's no film, no cues and etc?

Yes you can take the same music and dress it up differently and the genre will change, this isn't a new thing. People have been turning classical pieces into jazz standards and pop songs and film scores for ages. That's why I say it's a high art/low art thing—it's of course perfectly acceptable to turn high art into low art because that's seen as raising the level of discourse, whereas trying to turn low art into high art? Know your place, peasant!!!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on January 24, 2016, 02:44:47 PM
Many of us, including some with considerable knowledge and experience in music, recognize that the term "classical music" is imprecise and insufficient to describe the music we love. How then can we say that any kind of music is, or is not, "classical"? Especially when classically trained musicians cross genres all the time?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: kishnevi on January 24, 2016, 07:01:33 PM
Amen to both the previous posts.

And btw
[asin]B0129YBQTI[/asin]
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: amw on January 24, 2016, 08:29:41 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on January 24, 2016, 02:44:47 PMHow then can we say that any kind of music is, or is not, "classical"?
Well, just because the boundaries are fuzzy doesn't mean the category itself is fuzzy. This is an incredibly common mistake people make about categories, though. "Classical" is easy: music written in a continuous span, intended for live performance using a score of some kind, reproduced the same way each time, and characterised as the 'main event' ie you're generally not supposed to be doing anything else except spectating while at a classical concert. Or more concisely but perhaps more elliptically, classical music is music written for classical audiences and performed in a classical manner. The two definitions say more or less the same thing, for me.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Florestan on January 25, 2016, 01:44:56 AM
Quote from: amw on January 24, 2016, 08:29:41 PM
"Classical" is easy: music written in a continuous span, intended for live performance using a score of some kind, reproduced the same way each time

My name is Sviatoslav Richter and I just want to say that I strongly disagree.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Florestan on January 25, 2016, 02:32:40 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 25, 2016, 01:44:56 AM
My name is Sviatoslav Richter and I just want to say that I strongly disagree.

Oh, I am not. I just wanted to know if you really ignore me.  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Florestan on January 25, 2016, 02:39:27 AM
Quote from: amw on January 25, 2016, 02:35:48 AM
I un-hid your response on the off chance you had something interesting to say on this topic. I guess not.

I am honored, anyway.  :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 25, 2016, 02:44:26 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 24, 2016, 07:01:33 PM
and btw

So?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Rinaldo on January 25, 2016, 03:39:19 AM
Quote from: amw on January 24, 2016, 02:04:01 AM
It's all just fucking music. Whether it's film, classical, jazz, rap or gagaku, while there may be certain stylistic conventions or whatever, the only actual difference is in how it's put together. Film scores are written differently from classical scores. But arranging a film score into a classical score is certainly possible? Like it's not a film score if there's no film, no cues and etc?

Yes you can take the same music and dress it up differently and the genre will change, this isn't a new thing. People have been turning classical pieces into jazz standards and pop songs and film scores for ages. That's why I say it's a high art/low art thing—it's of course perfectly acceptable to turn high art into low art because that's seen as raising the level of discourse, whereas trying to turn low art into high art? Know your place, peasant!!!

(https://media.giphy.com/media/b9aScKLxdv0Y0/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 25, 2016, 03:43:01 AM
Quote from: amw on January 24, 2016, 02:04:01 AMIt's all just fucking music film, classical, jazz, rap or gagaku....
Okeedoh, if that is the stance, why care at all who calls what anything?

I don't expect show music, lounge ballads, ragtime, jazz, pop, rock, new-age, Gamelan, Gagaku, bluegrass, folk, etc. to be classical, why Film music, then?

Quote from: amw on January 24, 2016, 02:04:01 AMYes you can take the same music and dress it up differently and the genre will change, this isn't a new thing. People have been turning classical pieces into jazz standards and pop songs and film scores for ages.
N.B. the direction from the source to the 'reworkings.' That is water from the well into a bucket, not water from a bucket into the source. A slightly edited film score, with bridges or extensions, say, very often stays a film score, like Star Wars Concert Suite or like Symphonic Dances from West Side Story remains the same music written for a Broadway show.

As long as it is reworked enough to not be a mere quote or pastiche, spins on classical themes going into other genres is a reworking into the other genre which makes the themes, the song, etc. into something else, with the original departure material but a source of variation and invention: the same holds if the source to genre direction goes from popular to classical.

This is an entirely different ball of wax than the a symphonic orchestration of a pop tune, and that is no more different from a realized orchestration of the original midi score for Legend of Zelda, innit? Does that concert presentation, with full orchestra and chorus, of Legend of Zelda instantly somehow turn that video game score into "classical?" [I think it is so obviously a 'no' that a 'yes' is laughable. -- others, it seems, have other opinions and think my point of view is laughable.]

That difference of opinion is why this thread, in the Beginner's Section, now runs so many pages .The situating of the poll in this section, with its middling split of opinion, I think may have something to do with the 'yes' vote disproportionately higher than if the same poll was made asking those who hold a season ticket subscription to the classical programming of a major symphony orchestra. [That would be a pretty interesting thing to do, actually.]

The 'high art/low art' thingie, better leave that off completely and say there are genres, and within those genres something is excellent, or not. I'm interested, not concerned, that listeners be able to discern genres, for one reason, to better assess the merits of whatever they are listening to for what it is, vs. what the any particular genre is not and was not 'trying to do,' in the first place.

Film scores are not 'trying to be classical.' There are a tiny handful of all film scores written by the primarily full-time classical composer, most of those from quite some decades ago. Film score composers are the first to say they are film score composers, that their scores are not classical.

Let's go back to that high/low art thingie. It could just be that people who get even a titch upset that "film scores aren't classical,' are more going for the class/snob thing, wanting to dress up a perfectly fine genre in order to pretend it, and they, are something else. There is nothing at all 'wrong' with film music, unless you expect it to instead be classical, lol.

I don't expect show music, lounge ballads, ragtime, jazz, pop, rock, new-age, Gamelan, Gagaku, bluegrass, folk, etc. to be classical, why Film music, then?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on January 25, 2016, 07:35:48 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 25, 2016, 03:43:01 AM
 
Okeedoh, if that is the stance, why care at all who calls what anything?

I don't expect show music, lounge ballads, ragtime, jazz, pop, rock, new-age, Gamelan, Gagaku, bluegrass, folk, etc. to be classical, why Film music, then?

N.B. the direction from the source to the 'reworkings.' That is water from the well into a bucket, not water from a bucket into the source. A slightly edited film score, with bridges or extensions, say, very often stays a film score, like Star Wars Concert Suite or like Symphonic Dances from West Side Story remains the same music written for a Broadway show.

As long as it is reworked enough to not be a mere quote or pastiche, spins on classical themes going into other genres is a reworking into the other genre which makes the themes, the song, etc. into something else, with the original departure material but a source of variation and invention: the same holds if the source to genre direction goes from popular to classical.

This is an entirely different ball of wax than the a symphonic orchestration of a pop tune, and that is no more different from a realized orchestration of the original midi score for Legend of Zelda, innit? Does that concert presentation, with full orchestra and chorus, of Legend of Zelda instantly somehow turn that video game score into "classical?" [I think it is so obviously a 'no' that a 'yes' is laughable. -- others, it seems, have other opinions and think my point of view is laughable.]

That difference of opinion is why this thread, in the Beginner's Section, now runs so many pages .The situating of the poll in this section, with its middling split of opinion, I think may have something to do with the 'yes' vote disproportionately higher than if the same poll was made asking those who hold a season ticket subscription to the classical programming of a major symphony orchestra. [That would be a pretty interesting thing to do, actually.]

The 'high art/low art' thingie, better leave that off completely and say there are genres, and within those genres something is excellent, or not. I'm interested, not concerned, that listeners be able to discern genres, for one reason, to better assess the merits of whatever they are listening to for what it is, vs. what the any particular genre is not and was not 'trying to do,' in the first place.

Film scores are not 'trying to be classical.' There are a tiny handful of all film scores written by the primarily full-time classical composer, most of those from quite some decades ago. Film score composers are the first to say they are film score composers, that their scores are not classical.

Let's go back to that high/low art thingie. It could just be that people who get even a titch upset that "film scores aren't classical,' are more going for the class/snob thing, wanting to dress up a perfectly fine genre in order to pretend it, and they, are something else. There is nothing at all 'wrong' with film music, unless you expect it to instead be classical, lol.

I don't expect show music, lounge ballads, ragtime, jazz, pop, rock, new-age, Gamelan, Gagaku, bluegrass, folk, etc. to be classical, why Film music, then?

One way to think of this is you are mixing genre's and technique.  A composer can use jazz, rock, pop, Baroque, Gamelan, folk, etc., as a means for expression or borrow elements from these to create something new.  It is a blurry line when something created in one genre is adapted for another or someone primarily known in one way writes in a different way.  I imagine most of us would consider Williams's Flute Concerto or Violin Concerto to be clearly in the bounds of classical music.  What if a composer's hugely popular and classic score is adapted to a suite for concert performance?  I am talking about Bernstein's Symphonic Dances that is a very popular and effective concert adaption of a popular Broadway and classic film musical.  Why wouldn't this be considered a concert piece?  It is programmed frequently and very well done.  I guess at this point I have a problem finding the difference between that and the Harry Potter suite which does develop it's melodic material over the 10 duration very effectively.  So why exclude Star Wars from doing the same?  I think some people (maybe not you) are too quick to dismiss the quality of the achievement because of its popularity and heart on sleeves but it is much more sophisticated and successful accomplishment than you give him credit for being. 

Classical music doesn't just have to be weighty epics that span the meaning of human nature and our place in history...sometimes it can be for entertainment or to accompany a benefactor's dinner party (Mozart) or a set of drinking songs for a university too.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 25, 2016, 05:31:08 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on January 24, 2016, 02:44:47 PM
Many of us, including some with considerable knowledge and experience in music, recognize that the term "classical music" is imprecise and insufficient to describe the music we love.
N.B. "the music we love."

Quote from: jochanaan on January 24, 2016, 02:44:47 PMHow then can we say that any kind of music is, or is not, "classical"? Especially when classically trained musicians cross genres all the time?

"Music we love."
I love Gamelon music, Chinese antique 'classical' music; Chinese for the Guqin, Japanese Gagaku, etc. Those aren't western classical.

"...classically trained musicians cross genres all the time." ... and they are highly cognizant of the fact of genres, and know they are crossing genres.

Film composers don't think they are writing classical; they know they are writing film music, identify themselves as film composers.
If and when they write a concert piece, original, not a suite from their film works, they know they are writing classical, not film music.

Just because a classical fan loves other genres... well, I'd like to think they'd also developed some sense through all of their listening experience to be able to differentiate genres, including film scores from 'classical,' that's all.


Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 25, 2016, 11:34:14 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 25, 2016, 07:35:48 AM
One way to think of this is you are mixing genre's and technique.  A composer can use jazz, rock, pop, Baroque, Gamelan, folk, etc., as a means for expression or borrow elements from these to create something new.  It is a blurry line.

What if a composer's hugely popular and classic score is adapted to a suite for concert performance?  I am talking about Bernstein's Symphonic Dances that is a very popular and effective concert adaption of a popular Broadway and classic film musical.  Why wouldn't this be considered a concert piece?  It is programmed frequently and very well done.  I guess at this point I have a problem finding the difference between that and the Harry Potter suite which does develop it's melodic material over the 10 duration very effectively.  So why exclude Star Wars from doing the same?  I think some people (maybe not you) are too quick to dismiss the quality of the achievement because of its popularity and heart on sleeves but it is much more sophisticated and successful accomplishment than you give him credit for being.
"Why wouldn't this be considered a concert piece?"
"Concert piece"
does not turn the genre of the music played in concert to classical. It is a concert piece, of dance music from a Broadway musical, with a harmonic vocabulary not usually expected from within the genre, and still music from a Broadway musical. So are the well-developed -- I'll take your word for it -- concert suites of John Williams. [Gershwin's Rhapsody in blue was / is, imo, more genre-bending than anything Williams has yet done, and yet the Gershwin is more 'classical' than anything else, it seems, lol.]

When it comes to Williams' film scores, they are, by the nature of what the director requested or by the composer's own choice, 'original' music which is such a re-hash of previous composers and styles that it is seriously difficult to consider them as anything other than what they are, original film scores which are a potpourri of new pieces in pastiche or an amalgam of very-well known previous styles all from earlier repertoire, including other composer's earlier film scores, even :) They are only genre-imitative, their only real genre is 'film music.' [N.B. this is wholly apart from anything to do with 'how well it is done.']

When nearly all classical and film composers, trained musicians, and the majority of those devoted and experienced classical fans all 'just know' film music is film music, suites from Broadway shows are suites from Broadway shows,[/i] just as they reflexively understand that, say, Thelonius Monk's music is 'not classical,' I seriously wonder why anyone other than the newest of neophytes who had just dipped their toes into the edge of classical music thinks there is a question about the genre at all.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 26, 2016, 01:53:16 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on January 25, 2016, 03:39:19 AM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/b9aScKLxdv0Y0/giphy.gif)
Ahhh, the character based on the real person who thought his wife was a terrific opera singer and who did not at all like hearing from the entire slew of professional critics, classical musicians and the general public who unanimously said she was not, so said they, all of them, were just wrong...  :laugh:
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 26, 2016, 02:23:50 AM
What is classical music? And what exactly falls under its sway? The core is easier to identify. But what about the periphery? On the one hand we have church music and polyphony. Much, if not all, music from the Middle Ages and the period preceding and following it was written with one primary purpose - use in the church. Today, we usually consider this classical music. Based on some explanations in this thread, this would not be the case.

At the other end, we have film scores, light music and other crossover efforts. Personally, I am happy to call it all classical music, as classical is probably the closest in nature to it. And this is how most people seem to classify it - though whether from laziness or true thought, I cannot say.  I have always felt that film music was simply a natural extension in many ways of 'traditional' classical music. 

The discussion is not as black and white as some are making it. Here's an interesting example:
[asin]B005FNJL7K[/asin]
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 26, 2016, 02:43:32 AM

Quote from: relm1 on January 25, 2016, 07:35:48 AMI imagine most of us would consider Williams's Flute Concerto or Violin Concerto to be clearly in the bounds of classical music.  What if a composer's hugely popular and classic score is adapted to a suite for concert performance?  I am talking about Bernstein's Symphonic Dances that is a very popular and effective concert adaption of a popular Broadway and classic film musical.  Why wouldn't this be considered a concert piece?  It is programmed frequently and very well done.  I guess at this point I have a problem finding the difference between that and the Harry Potter suite which does develop it's melodic material over the 10 duration very effectively.  So why exclude Star Wars from doing the same?

My first point (well, perhaps my entire post) is less a matter of "classical music VS. other," and more ... something else.

Inarguably, if Williams has written a concerto for flute or violin, we are invited to regard it as concert music. I've not heard them, so I cannot comment; perhaps they are great pieces. The two concert pieces of Williams's which I have heard, were weak.

Why, then, were these two weak pieces given, on two separate occasions, time in Symphony Hall? Because Williams is a famous and popular composer of film scores. If pieces that weak had been submitted by a no-name composer to the orchestra's management for consideration, they would never have been programmed.

The Bernstein Symphonic Dances make a great counterexample, because I first heard them when (a) I had never seen a stage production of West Side Story, and (b) if I had seen the movie version, it was at an age where I remembered the plot, but probably not the musical specifics of the dance music. The Symphonic Dances work as concert music, I should say, because the listener does not require the experiential context of the movie, to consider the music good music.

25 years from now, if Williams's "concert suites" are still programmed, let's judge whether audiences who haven't grown up with the movies find it good music.

Edit :: left out a crucial not
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 26, 2016, 02:58:46 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 26, 2016, 02:43:32 AM

My first point (well, perhaps my entire post) is less a matter of "classical music VS. other," and more ... something else.

Inarguably, if Williams has written a concerto for flute or violin, we are invited to regard it as concert music. I've not heard them, so I cannot comment; perhaps they are great pieces. The two concert pieces of Williams's which I have heard, were weak.

Why, then, were these two weak pieces given, on two separate occasions, time in Symphony Hall? Because Williams is a famous and popular composer of film scores. If pieces that weak had been submitted by a no-name composer to the orchestra's management for consideration, they would never have been programmed.

The Bernstein Symphonic Dances make a great counterexample, because I first heard them when (a) I had never seen a stage production of West Side Story, and (b) if I had seen the movie version, it was at an age where I remembered the plot, but probably not the musical specifics of the dance music. The Symphonic Dances work as concert music, I should say, because the listener does require the experiential context of the movie, to consider the music good music.

25 years from now, if Williams's "concert suites" are still programmed, let's judge whether audiences who haven't grown up with the movies find it good music.
A small point, but good or bad should not drive the classification of music. This is a subjective element in any case. And, out of curiosity, what do we call the music while we wait (those 25 years)? :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 26, 2016, 03:15:15 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 26, 2016, 02:58:46 AM
A small point, but good or bad should not drive the classification of music.

Of course, and while I seemed to start to spell that out at the beginning of my post, I did not make that small point plain myself (i.e., that whether the music is good or bad is a separate question).

But M. Croche's point is well taken, too:  that there is a fair amount in this thread of the soft category error of "It's music I like, that means it's classical."

I get your point about the subjective element, too.  But there are matters of the craft of composition and orchestration in which Williams's music is weak.  Doesn't change it from being hummable.  So there are layers of criteria for good VS. bad.  Here, too, the Bernstein counterexample is better written, in ways which are not dismissible as mere opinion.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 26, 2016, 03:20:07 AM
And of course, Neal, I own your point that there is a fuzzy definition at best of classical music.  And I wonder if that "enables" (in the parlance of our time) the category error ("I like it" = "it's classical music").
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 26, 2016, 03:42:16 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 26, 2016, 03:15:15 AM
Of course, and while I seemed to start to spell that out at the beginning of my post, I did not make that small point plain myself (i.e., that whether the music is good or bad is a separate question).

But M. Croche's point is well taken, too:  that there is a fair amount in this thread of the soft category error of "It's music I like, that means it's classical."

I get your point about the subjective element, too.  But there are matters of the craft of composition and orchestration in which Williams's music is weak.  Doesn't change it from being hummable.  So there are layers of criteria for good VS. bad.  Here, too, the Bernstein counterexample is better written, in ways which are not dismissible as mere opinion.
I hear you. At the same time, I was immediately thinking of Schumann's symphonies and Beethoven's Fidelio, both of which are often cited as being weak in the craft of music making. But I think you may have hit upon it to some degree, when you wrote:
Quote from: karlhenning on January 26, 2016, 03:20:07 AM
And of course, Neal, I own your point that there is a fuzzy definition at best of classical music.  And I wonder if that "enables" (in the parlance of our time) the category error ("I like it" = "it's classical music").
I would just add the opposite as well, meaning: I don't like it, therefore, it's not classical music. There seems to be a fair amount of that too. It's hard to be objective though when there are few (if any) set criteria.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 26, 2016, 03:53:59 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 26, 2016, 03:42:16 AM
I would just add the opposite as well, meaning: I don't like it, therefore, it's not classical music. There seems to be a fair amount of that too. It's hard to be objective though when there are few (if any) set criteria.

Yes, I was just thinking . . . we at GMG have batted this around over so long a time, I think I very likely fell into the equal-and-opposite error way back in the Deeps of Time.  So I learn stuff here at GMG  ;)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: knight66 on January 26, 2016, 03:55:57 AM
The point was made earlier that classical music was primarily made to be listened to, not as an adjunct to another form of entertainment. I am not sure that was inevitably so; even classical chamber and chamber orchestra music was often treated as background music to a social gathering in earlier centuries. It was not inevitably listened to the the way we do in a concert hall today. The famous prominade concerts grew out and away from allowing people to walk about socialising whilst the concert was being played. But in the main, our idea of what constitutes classical music in live performance infers that we will be listening attentively and clearly, film music by definition is designed to heighten, comment on and to accompany the visual elements of film.

I have been very fortunate to spend many days wandering around the huge dead city of Petra in Jordan. It is spectacular and embraces vistas, rocky hills, ruins etc. One day I was on my own and went round in my own little bubble with my iPod and earpieces. The Mahler was OK in the context; but what substantially heightened the experience uncannily was when the Lord of the Rings music came on. I would happen to turn my head just as there was a surge, or a quiet moment. It really did accompany the visual element, basically what it was designed to do, whereas, the Mahler and the views distracted from one another.

I don't listen to the LotR music at home, but what happened reinforced to me what classical music was and one certainty is that it needs to be able to stand alone.

Mike
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 26, 2016, 06:45:42 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 26, 2016, 02:23:50 AM
What is classical music? And what exactly falls under its sway? The core is easier to identify. But what about the periphery? On the one hand we have church music and polyphony. Much, if not all, music from the Middle Ages and the period preceding and following it was written with one primary purpose - use in the church. Today, we usually consider this classical music. Based on some explanations in this thread, this would not be the case.

At the other end, we have film scores, light music and other crossover efforts. Personally, I am happy to call it all classical music, as classical is probably the closest in nature to it. And this is how most people seem to classify it - though whether from laziness or true thought, I cannot say.  I have always felt that film music was simply a natural extension in many ways of 'traditional' classical music. 

The discussion is not as black and white as some are making it. Here's an interesting example:
[asin]B005FNJL7K[/asin]

Calling this a symphony is like a kid naming the piano improv he's posted on youtube, "a concerto," lol. Of course, there is probably hardly a person on the planet who would not think, if they saw the CD or an advert for a live performance, that they were in for anything like a HaydnMozartBeethovenSchubertSchumannBrahmsMahlerDebussyShostakovich-ProkofievVaughnWilliamsSibeliusNielsenStravinskyBaxTubinBerioIvesSchuman kinda Symphony thingie, so why worry if is called what it is not? Naw... because,
hey, its is all the same.

It is a long play soundtrack, arranged and orchestrated with [sometimes] added joining / connective material, and if anything, it is a five-movement -- or more -- sequence of tone-poems. [I read somewhere that three composers contributed to the job of orchestrating the LOTR Symphony, which is a normal bit of business for film scores. I can not recall that source, and the farming out of some of this work is not a big deal.] Again, it is stylistically all over the map, those again, all old established and 'already done' and once strikingly original styles, and genre writing of one sort or another is the flavor throughout. "New Music," with no real news in it.

Do you think it would ever be programmed on a symphony's classical subscription main season subscription series, or rather be scheduled as an apart event, like a symphonic pops or 'movie score night'? It is / was popular enough when it came out. The parallel of the Lord of the Rings score being presented this way is the orchestral concert presentation of Legend of Zelda. A good part of the audiences for these programs are people who do not otherwise attend classical concerts, or purchase a lot of classical recordings. They are there because it is film music -- not a bad thing -- but they are not there for what they think of as classical music.

If calling it "a symphony" makes those who like it feel more uptown about themselves, does that somehow enhance their musical experience? I.e. naming this soundtrack suite 'Symphony' was all about the marketing.:)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on January 26, 2016, 07:11:55 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 26, 2016, 02:43:32 AM
My first point (well, perhaps my entire post) is less a matter of "classical music VS. other," and more ... something else.

Inarguably, if Williams has written a concerto for flute or violin, we are invited to regard it as concert music. I've not heard them, so I cannot comment; perhaps they are great pieces. The two concert pieces of Williams's which I have heard, were weak.

Why, then, were these two weak pieces given, on two separate occasions, time in Symphony Hall? Because Williams is a famous and popular composer of film scores. If pieces that weak had been submitted by a no-name composer to the orchestra's management for consideration, they would never have been programmed.

The Bernstein Symphonic Dances make a great counterexample, because I first heard them when (a) I had never seen a stage production of West Side Story, and (b) if I had seen the movie version, it was at an age where I remembered the plot, but probably not the musical specifics of the dance music. The Symphonic Dances work as concert music, I should say, because the listener does not require the experiential context of the movie, to consider the music good music.

25 years from now, if Williams's "concert suites" are still programmed, let's judge whether audiences who haven't grown up with the movies find it good music.

Edit :: left out a crucial not

There is a lot of expectation of what a concert work by someone with the name of John Williams would sound like and the concert music does not sound like what we would expect based on his popular film scores.  Case in point, listen to any of this and if the name had been Schnittke or some other 1960's composer, it would fair better than it belonging to Williams.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRLKIe81HyI

You probably heard of Freakenamics buying a $200 bottle of wine and a $2 bottle and switching the labels but submitting the $2 one (with the expensive fancy label) to "Wine Connoisseur" magazine and it got the top prize.  This goes both ways and Williams is a brand...there is an expectation of his sound that comes from his blockbuster scores but this points rather to how far ranging he is. 

My problem with Monsieur Croche's argument is that he presumes pastiche should disqualify it from the sacred concert hall but there are many works written intentionally to sound like something else (Prokofiev Classic Symphony for example) that are brilliant examples of compositional dexterity and an individuality of the composer though their pastiche is clear.   There is not a good objective reason why some pastiche is ok and others are not.  A better argument that can't be debated is "i just don't like that kind of music" but that is not what is said.  Similarly, music written to accompany another vision does not disqualify it from concert halls.  Rite of Spring outlasted its inspiration and so will Star Wars music which is very good music to mostly silly kids films.

By the way, to everyone including M Croche, I don't take offense at any of this and I hope it doesn't sound like I do...I happen to think this is a very interesting discussion about the periphery of art and people are being respectful even when disagreeing.  I think this topic is worthy of its 40 pages.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 26, 2016, 07:20:23 AM
Quote from: relm1 on January 26, 2016, 07:11:55 AM
There is a lot of expectation of what a concert work by someone with the name of John Williams would sound like and the concert music does not sound like what we would expect based on his popular film scores.  Case in point, listen to any of this and if the name had been Schnittke or some other 1960's composer, it would fair better than it belonging to Williams.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRLKIe81HyI

You probably heard of Freakenamics buying a $200 bottle of wine and a $2 bottle and switching the labels but submitting the $2 one (with the expensive fancy label) to "Wine Connoisseur" magazine and it got the top prize.  This goes both ways and Williams is a brand...there is an expectation of his sound that comes from his blockbuster scores but this points rather to how far ranging he is.

I appreciate your point.  I honestly believe that I gave Williams's Heartwood a fair aural shake, but I also understand if we want to discount my experience as somehow jaundiced.

In my own defense  8)  I do not by any means automatically shunt "film composers" into second-class citizenry.  One of my favorite pieces to play is Rózsa's Sonatina for clarinet unaccompanied, which is an unqualifiedly good composition, and expertly idiomatic.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on January 26, 2016, 07:30:46 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 26, 2016, 02:43:32 AM
25 years from now, if Williams's "concert suites" are still programmed, let's judge whether audiences who haven't grown up with the movies find it good music.

Why does John Williams' music have to be good to be classical music? Most people here consider Dittersdorf and Glass very bad (thinking it has to be bad because they don't like it), but still call it classical music.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 26, 2016, 07:42:31 AM


Quote from: 71 dB on January 26, 2016, 07:30:46 AM
Why does John Williams' music have to be good to be classical music?

That point has already been conceded.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 26, 2016, 02:12:14 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 26, 2016, 07:11:55 AM
There is a lot of expectation of what a concert work by... John Williams would sound like and the concert music does not sound like what we would expect based on his popular film scores.  ...listen to any of this and if the name had been Schnittke or some other 1960's composer, it would fair better than it belonging to Williams.
[John Williams ~ Flute Concerto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRLKIe81HyI
You Williams is a brand...there is an expectation of his sound that comes from his blockbuster scores but this points rather to how far ranging he is.

You may be correct about the freakonomics regarding the general reception of William's classical fare, while I feel and think when I hear those contemporary concerti of his that they are generic in the same fashion I hear his film scores to be, as if a director told the composer to write a "contemporary classical score" for a film scene the duration of William's piece, i.e. a film score composer who by nature and the job requirement is a musical chameleon with a very wide range simply fulfilled yet another commission with a specific genre named and required, and it is as generic as the rest of what he has composed. Those concerti show he has the skill to produce a piece of a greater extended length and development, but I find those classical pieces really forgettable, where Schnittke's music has a clearer point of view and a very distinct and unique voice, and whether you like it or not it is distinctly memorable.

This 'not having one's own voice' can and does happen when a composer has been writing to order, it should be said writing well, in so many genres across the board for the majority of their life. Williams may have a recognizable signature as an orchestrator, but to my ears that is as far as it goes. His gift for the immediately catchy and memorable tune or theme is great, and he has used that to his advantage, and to his credit, in his film scores. It is so often the dictates of writing for films, as we hear in the Star Wars scores and the one concert suite, to 'write like this composer or piece,' and Williams fulfilled the job requirement commendably. Upon request, he wrote something very like a Korngold style segment sounding like from when Korngold was writing for films and was virtually parodying himself, a segment as close as possible to Host's Neptune,, another segment as close as possible to a bit of Le Sacre du Printemps, etc. all without infringing upon any copyrights. The level of skill needed to pull that off is not in dispute.

Quote from: relm1 on January 26, 2016, 07:11:55 AMMy problem with Monsieur Croche's argument is that he presumes pastiche should disqualify it from the sacred concert hall,
I should probably also put beside the signature motto in my profile, "Nothing Sacred."
Quote from: relm1 on January 26, 2016, 07:11:55 AMbut there are many works written intentionally to sound like something else (Prokofiev Classic Symphony for example) that are brilliant examples of compositional dexterity and an individuality of the composer though their pastiche is clear.  There is not a good objective reason why some pastiche is ok and others are not.
There is no question of there ever being one good objective reason when it comes to pastiche, and I doubt there ever will be one :)

The Prokofiev Classical Symphony is cast in a very straightforward symphonic form from the early Classical era, and though a bit restrained in its harmony, is otherwise thoroughly Prokofiev. As you said, the composer's "personality," his musical DNA, is stamped all over the work. William's DNA seems to me to be that signature orchestration, and in the contemporary concerti for the classical venue, there is nothing distinct about either the musical content or its orchestration. [The vast majority of the classical repertoire is the opposite of pastiche, parody, or hommage works, all of those genres are but tiny percent; a uniqueness to the music and a distinct personal voice are both major criteria for classical.]

When it comes to something "well-written" yet that much less distinct than William's Star Wars, I cite the lately mentioned Symphony from The Lord of The Rings film trilogy; it is a suite, actually. It sounds to me like an Irish stew of everything from Carl Maria von Weber through to I don't know what, with a bit of generic Irish pennywhistle balladeering tossed in, and then left in a crock pot on slow cook for such a length of time that any flavor the ingredients might have had or had chance to effect the other flavors is long ago boiled away into a tasteless gruel. I really do not get, other than a deep affection for the film with the music as a mnemonic trigger to recall the film, why anyone who claims to like pretty much any kind of music would want that. It is devoid of any personality whatsoever. I wouldn't be surprised if it somehow works in the films, though those too were an exercise in inadvertently giving the viewer a very good idea of what it is like to sit through a freakin actual eternity.

My main 'complaint' about a lot of this generic, pastiche, 'borrowed,' or 'parallel to an already known classical piece' film score fare, is that to anyone who has a really well rehearsed familiarity with the classical rep, much of it becomes a direct and painful reminder of far stronger/better preexisting pieces and composers, the originals then coming to to the fore as what I would rather hear while the film score then pales and sounds to me like a tacky-corny-hokey generic substitute, [an inevitable result, I think, of decades of familiarity with 'classical.'] It is impossible to wipe the memory of the latter to enjoy the former, where when listening to Prokofiev's Classical Symphony I do not feel compelled to instead want to hear CPE Bach, Haydn or Mozart, because whatever that Classical Symphony is, it is Prokofiev all the way, the composer was not in the least cribbing from or imitating anything in any way.

Quote from: relm1 on January 26, 2016, 07:11:55 AMRite of Spring outlasted its inspiration and so will Star Wars music which is very good music to mostly silly kids films.
"Mostly silly kids films." B....b...but, those films are art. :laugh: Or at the least, you have mortally offended several generations for whom those films have deeply affected their imaginations, having seen them as young children, and for whom the sentimental attachment with both the film and the music scores therefrom, is deep. :)
Do many who love the Peer Gynt suite have any attachment to, or knowledge of, the play for which the music was originally composed? :)
If the Star Wars films continue to be loved and effect future generations, the Star Wars concert suite will probably live on and continue to excite and please, at least please those who somehow have strong sentimental attachments to the films. It may be catchy enough to survive a disassociation from the films and still have some life of its own, but I somehow think it would not maintain its stamina without.

Film score fans are the ones who most keep the film scores of older films alive. From those older film score masters such as Bernard Herrmann and others have composed, it is often the theme music which still lingers in memory. These share what most film scores share, the quick hit necessary in the time allotted to grab the listener immediately, an goodly amount of repetition of the same material, etc.

Whether it is Hermann, Howard Shore or Williams, what ends up lasting at all from the film scores is but a few scant minutes of all the music originally written.
Star Wars suite is ca. fifteen minutes.
Bernard Herrmann's Vertigo suite, all of ten minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_6euCUJ0Tg
North by Northwest, the theme music, really, three minutes, ten
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db4LjufUY-Y

Quote from: relm1 on January 26, 2016, 07:11:55 AMI happen to think this is a very interesting discussion about the periphery of art and people are being respectful even when disagreeing.  I think this topic is worthy of its 40 pages.
It is interesting, what people think is classical, what others claim to 'just know' is classical, and that contentious thing of what is art. Even if their are finite definitions for those, lines are always movable, so I think the biggest part of discussion is more like, "how far can those lines be moved before...."
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 26, 2016, 02:54:01 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on January 26, 2016, 07:30:46 AM
Why does John Williams' music have to be good to be classical music? Most people here consider Dittersdorf and Glass very bad (thinking it has to be bad because they don't like it), but still call it classical music.

If it does not have to be great or good to be film music, the same goes for classcal... I hold up anything by one Gabriel Pierné Piano Concerto as but one exhibit A, your honor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUjtXezU6cg
[There are dozens of other composers and/or particular pieces, of both film score and classical, that are interchangeable as exhibit A]:laugh:
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on January 26, 2016, 04:54:30 PM
Quote from: knight66 on January 26, 2016, 03:55:57 AM
The point was made earlier that classical music was primarily made to be listened to, not as an adjunct to another form of entertainment. I am not sure that was inevitably so...
Opera?  Ballet?  Incidental music?  Sinfonia Antarctica?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on January 26, 2016, 05:20:57 PM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 26, 2016, 02:12:14 PM
You may be correct about the freakonomics regarding the general reception of William's classical fare, while I feel and think when I hear those contemporary concerti of his that they are generic in the same fashion I hear his film scores to be, as if a director told the composer to write a "contemporary classical score" for a film scene the duration of William's piece, i.e. a film score composer who by nature and the job requirement is a musical chameleon with a very wide range simply fulfilled yet another commission with a specific genre named and required, and it is as generic as the rest of what he has composed. Those concerti show he has the skill to produce a piece of a greater extended length and development, but I find those classical pieces really forgettable, where Schnittke's music has a clearer point of view and a very distinct and unique voice, and whether you like it or not it is distinctly memorable.

This 'not having one's own voice' can and does happen when a composer has been writing to order, it should be said writing well, in so many genres across the board for the majority of their life. Williams may have a recognizable signature as an orchestrator, but to my ears that is as far as it goes. His gift for the immediately catchy and memorable tune or theme is great, and he has used that to his advantage, and to his credit, in his film scores. It is so often the dictates of writing for films, as we hear in the Star Wars scores and the one concert suite, to 'write like this composer or piece,' and Williams fulfilled the job requirement commendably. Upon request, he wrote something very like a Korngold style segment sounding like from when Korngold was writing for films and was virtually parodying himself, a segment as close as possible to Host's Neptune,, another segment as close as possible to a bit of Le Sacre du Printemps, etc. all without infringing upon any copyrights. The level of skill needed to pull that off is not in dispute.
I should probably also put beside the signature motto in my profile, "Nothing Sacred." 
There is no question of there ever being one good objective reason when it comes to pastiche, and I doubt there ever will be one :)

The Prokofiev Classical Symphony is cast in a very straightforward symphonic form from the early Classical era, and though a bit restrained in its harmony, is otherwise thoroughly Prokofiev. As you said, the composer's "personality," his musical DNA, is stamped all over the work. William's DNA seems to me to be that signature orchestration, and in the contemporary concerti for the classical venue, there is nothing distinct about either the musical content or its orchestration. [The vast majority of the classical repertoire is the opposite of pastiche, parody, or hommage works, all of those genres are but tiny percent; a uniqueness to the music and a distinct personal voice are both major criteria for classical.]

When it comes to something "well-written" yet that much less distinct than William's Star Wars, I cite the lately mentioned Symphony from The Lord of The Rings film trilogy; it is a suite, actually. It sounds to me like an Irish stew of everything from Carl Maria von Weber through to I don't know what, with a bit of generic Irish pennywhistle balladeering tossed in, and then left in a crock pot on slow cook for such a length of time that any flavor the ingredients might have had or had chance to effect the other flavors is long ago boiled away into a tasteless gruel. I really do not get, other than a deep affection for the film with the music as a mnemonic trigger to recall the film, why anyone who claims to like pretty much any kind of music would want that. It is devoid of any personality whatsoever. I wouldn't be surprised if it somehow works in the films, though those too were an exercise in inadvertently giving the viewer a very good idea of what it is like to sit through a freakin actual eternity.

My main 'complaint' about a lot of this generic, pastiche, 'borrowed,' or 'parallel to an already known classical piece' film score fare, is that to anyone who has a really well rehearsed familiarity with the classical rep, much of it becomes a direct and painful reminder of far stronger/better preexisting pieces and composers, the originals then coming to to the fore as what I would rather hear while the film score then pales and sounds to me like a tacky-corny-hokey generic substitute, [an inevitable result, I think, of decades of familiarity with 'classical.'] It is impossible to wipe the memory of the latter to enjoy the former, where when listening to Prokofiev's Classical Symphony I do not feel compelled to instead want to hear CPE Bach, Haydn or Mozart, because whatever that Classical Symphony is, it is Prokofiev all the way, the composer was not in the least cribbing from or imitating anything in any way.
"Mostly silly kids films." B....b...but, those films are art. :laugh: Or at the least, you have mortally offended several generations for whom those films have deeply affected their imaginations, having seen them as young children, and for whom the sentimental attachment with both the film and the music scores therefrom, is deep. :)
Do many who love the Peer Gynt suite have any attachment to, or knowledge of, the play for which the music was originally composed? :)
If the Star Wars films continue to be loved and effect future generations, the Star Wars concert suite will probably live on and continue to excite and please, at least please those who somehow have strong sentimental attachments to the films. It may be catchy enough to survive a disassociation from the films and still have some life of its own, but I somehow think it would not maintain its stamina without.

Film score fans are the ones who most keep the film scores of older films alive. From those older film score masters such as Bernard Herrmann and others have composed, it is often the theme music which still lingers in memory. These share what most film scores share, the quick hit necessary in the time allotted to grab the listener immediately, an goodly amount of repetition of the same material, etc.

Whether it is Hermann, Howard Shore or Williams, what ends up lasting at all from the film scores is but a few scant minutes of all the music originally written.
Star Wars suite is ca. fifteen minutes.
Bernard Herrmann's Vertigo suite, all of ten minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_6euCUJ0Tg
North by Northwest, the theme music, really, three minutes, ten
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db4LjufUY-Y
It is interesting, what people think is classical, what others claim to 'just know' is classical, and that contentious thing of what is art. Even if their are finite definitions for those, lines are always movable, so I think the biggest part of discussion is more like, "how far can those lines be moved before...."

Grrr, it's just not so easy to respond to large multi quote posts so don't interpret that as agreement with you!  Some people happen to like pastiche is done well. I LOVE Atterberg and he is a pastiche composer.  Some of his music is extremely engaging and totally derivative.  YOU tell me why that's bad for me to love?  I adore it.  There is an implicit egocentricity in your point of view that needs to be defended unless you become labeled as an elitist who is frankly outmoded and I expect you take issue to that. 

To me, the fact that you find "I find those classical pieces really forgettable, where Schnittke's music has a clearer point of view and a very distinct and unique voice, and whether you like it or not it is distinctly memorable" is irrelevant.  I disagree and this is purely a subjective matter.  I happen to enjoy Schnittke and Williams and find you to be lacking in understanding if you don't agree...see that isn't very productive point of view (even when true).  You are effectively saying "drama is art" and someone else can say "comedy is art"...now what?  You did clarity "to my ears" but this demands a challenge of what qualifies you to such an opinion?  If you tell me because you have spent your life as a composer of pure art, I will listen more than "because I just know". 

Your point about Prokofiev makes no sense.  You are effectively saying because he did a good job of imitating another style qualities him as original but another listener could say for that exact reason it is pastiche!  To me, when I hear Williams, I hear his DNA all over it even when he plays other styles and that is exactly why I call it unique.  It is like a Stravinsky version of Debussy.  He is an amalgamation of what he loved and grew up with.  That is what composers do.  You are misinformed and generalize too much.

"This 'not having one's own voice' can and does happen when a composer has been writing to order, it should be said writing well, in so many genres across the board for the majority of their life. Williams may have a recognizable signature as an orchestrator, but to my ears that is as far as it goes."

Williams absolutely has a recognizable style that is uniquely his own.  Like any artist he is an amalgamation of his influences filtered through craftsmanship.  Name one artist who isn't that?   Composers don't create in a vacuum ignoring everything else, they meld what resonates with them (usually what they were influenced by in their youth) and in time they hopefully mature and shake off some of what once fascinated them or at least get a greater control of the elements to know how best to exploit what fascinated them in the first place.  What artist is this not the case for?

I do not consider the film scores to be classical music but the concert suites of these films are flushed out works that do qualify as stand along works like Bernstein's Symphonic Dances suite. 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: 71 dB on January 26, 2016, 08:59:01 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 26, 2016, 07:42:31 AM

That point has already been conceded.

I'm done with this thread. Everyone can think what they want.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Florestan on January 27, 2016, 01:01:17 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 26, 2016, 02:12:14 PM
This 'not having one's own voice' can and does happen when a composer has been writing to order

Bach and Haydn wrote by order throughout their whole life. Just saying.

Quotea uniqueness to the music and a distinct personal voice are both major criteria for classical.

Drat! You have just excluded from "classical" the vast majority of compositions before Beethoven.

Quote
When it comes to something "well-written" yet that much less distinct than William's Star Wars, I cite the lately mentioned Symphony from The Lord of The Rings film trilogy; it is a suite, actually. It sounds to me like an Irish stew of everything from Carl Maria von Weber through to I don't know what, with a bit of generic Irish pennywhistle balladeering tossed in, and then left in a crock pot on slow cook for such a length of time that any flavor the ingredients might have had or had chance to effect the other flavors is long ago boiled away into a tasteless gruel. I really do not get, other than a deep affection for the film with the music as a mnemonic trigger to recall the film, why anyone who claims to like pretty much any kind of music would want that. It is devoid of any personality whatsoever. I wouldn't be surprised if it somehow works in the films, though those too were an exercise in inadvertently giving the viewer a very good idea of what it is like to sit through a freakin actual eternity.

Although your prose is as florid as Berlioz´s, it lacks any of his perfumes.

Quote
Do many who love the Peer Gynt suite have any attachment to, or knowledge of, the play for which the music was originally composed? :)

At least a cursory knowledge of the play is strongly advisable.

Quote
Whether it is Hermann, Howard Shore or Williams, what ends up lasting at all from the film scores is but a few scant minutes of all the music originally written.
Star Wars suite is ca. fifteen minutes.
Bernard Herrmann's Vertigo suite, all of ten minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_6euCUJ0Tg
North by Northwest, the theme music, really, three minutes, ten
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db4LjufUY-Y
[/quote]

What do most people know of Mozart? The first two minutes from the 40th Symphony, the first two minutes of Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, the three-minute Marcia alla turca and the five-minute Non più andrai.

What do most people know of Beethoven? The first two minutes of the 5th Symphony, the two-minute main theme from the finale of the 9th and the three-minute Für Elise.

What do most people know of Haydn? Nothing, unless you consider familiarity with Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star as inadvertent familiarity with the 94th Symphony as well.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 27, 2016, 01:33:56 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 27, 2016, 01:01:17 AM
What do most people know of Mozart? The first two minutes from the 40th Symphony, the first two minutes of Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, the three-minute Marcia alla turca and the five-minute Non più andrai.

What do most people know of Beethoven? The first two minutes of the 5th Symphony, the two-minute main theme from the finale of the 9th and the three-minute Für Elise.

What do most people know of Haydn? Nothing, unless you consider familiarity with Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star as inadvertent familiarity with the 94th Symphony as well.

Just saying.

...and ^^^all that kinda thing, I'm near certain enough to bet one whole dollar, is the reason a lot of folks think film music "counts as classical."

Addressing the Q of the OP (remember the OP?), the Wiki bio article on Williams says this about the Star Wars score:
"Both the film and its soundtrack were immensely successful—it remains the highest grossing non-popular music recording of all-time,"
Non-pop, but not classical. Even somewhat populist Wiki doesn't go so far as to call it "classical." The category is, ta-da,
Film music.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 27, 2016, 01:41:08 AM
And I, for one, welcome our new film-score overlords.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: North Star on January 27, 2016, 01:54:29 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 27, 2016, 01:33:56 AMAddressing the Q of the OP (remember the OP?), the Wiki bio article on Williams says this about the Star Wars score:
"Both the film and its soundtrack were immensely successful—it remains the highest grossing non-popular music recording of all-time,"
Non-pop, but not classical. Even somewhat populist Wiki doesn't go so far as to call it "classical."

That doesn't mean anything else than that the only recordings that have sold more are popular music. Classical music is obviously among the music classified as non-popular music. And pray tell how exactly is Wikipedia 'populist'?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: knight66 on January 27, 2016, 03:17:55 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on January 26, 2016, 04:54:30 PM
Opera?  Ballet?  Incidental music?  Sinfonia Antarctica?



I assume that is a terse disagreement to what I wrote.

Opera is a musical artform, it survives very well the abscence of the visual.
Ballet cannot survive at all without the music.
Incidental Music is indeed akin to some film music. What we recall would be the likes of Greig, Sibelius, Strauss, Walton and Purcell. All substantial composers who like Prokofiev, Shostakovich and again Walton, provided music drwing on their classical abilities. It all sits like an iceberg above the run of film music which is mainly up-market sludge, at best.

We only really recall the well written Mendelssohn, Purcell incidental music: there was masses of this genre we never bother with now. The Symphony Antartica is a recognised symphony within the cannon, not sure what you are suggesting; it is not one of RVW's best I feel, but it survives its divorce from the visual.

Mike
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on January 27, 2016, 07:06:24 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 27, 2016, 03:17:55 AM

We only really recall the well written Mendelssohn, Purcell incidental music: there was masses of this genre we never bother with now. The Symphony Antartica is a recognised symphony within the cannon, not sure what you are suggesting; it is not one of RVW's best I feel, but it survives its divorce from the visual.

Mike

That is true with classical music as well...only a small percentage of works created enter into repertoire and transcend their time, most are forgotten and it isn't always the ones the composers wish will speak to general audience. 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on January 27, 2016, 03:14:03 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 27, 2016, 07:06:24 AM
That is true with classical music as well...only a small percentage of works created enter into repertoire and transcend their time, most are forgotten and it isn't always the ones the composers wish will speak to general audience.
+1
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 27, 2016, 07:06:42 PM
You're sitting at home listening to film-score recordings, a friend calls and hearing the music, asks, ''What you are listening to?'' ''Classical music,'' you answer.
This is like getting a call from your friend when you are in a favorite local eatery while chowing down with relished gusto on a tasty Italian beef sandwich dripping with oily jus/ and a side of fries drenched in ketchup, and when your friend asks you where you are and what you're doing, you say, ''I'm dining out in a four-star gourmet restaurant.''

Some will just insist, no matter what, that the made with recycled and inferior ingredients watered-down beverage they are drinking from the bottle with its label calculatedly made to look like the label on the classical bottle -- the look-alike label enough to fool enough people, anyway -- is the up-market / uptown / high end / real deal...

https://www.youtube.com/v/OMFNABbqWCw



Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: knight66 on January 28, 2016, 01:39:36 AM
Quote from: relm1 on January 27, 2016, 07:06:24 AM
That is true with classical music as well...only a small percentage of works created enter into repertoire and transcend their time, most are forgotten and it isn't always the ones the composers wish will speak to general audience.

It is true for almost any art, manufacturing, events in our lives etc, etc and basically indicates that the main point i was making has in your mind been divorced from this side issue that you have latched onto. The main thrust of my argument was that by far most film music is filler, gloop, an extra. A small amout is considerably more. But not much of it. The genre has pulled in a few significant composers to produce work for the medium and of those few a subset of works have been programed along side their usual work and that of the mainstream classical composers.

But I don't think Cinema has produced any great concert composers who have produced concert work that shows signs of being programmed up against LvB, Bach etc. Williams is very popular, but his material gets played in the concert hall by orcherstas in themed programs of Film Music which seems to me to be pretty much a genre in its own right, not to be confused in Classical.

And to reaffirm: my view remains that even most good film music does not in any extended form survive divorce from that which it was designed to accompany.

Mike
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 28, 2016, 03:17:58 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 28, 2016, 01:39:36 AM
But I don't think Cinema has produced any great concert composers who have produced concert work that shows signs of being programmed up against LvB, Bach etc.

Exactly; which is the inverse of the examples of Prokofiev, Vaughan Williams, Shostakovich:  expert composers, first of all, who have written music for film.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: North Star on January 28, 2016, 03:24:35 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 28, 2016, 01:39:36 AM
But I don't think Cinema has produced any great concert composers who have produced concert work that shows signs of being programmed up against LvB, Bach etc.
Quote from: karlhenning on January 28, 2016, 03:17:58 AM
Exactly; which is the inverse of the examples of Prokofiev, Vaughan Williams, Shostakovich:  expert composers, first of all, who have written music for film.
What about Bernard Herrmann?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 28, 2016, 03:29:21 AM
Quote from: North Star on January 28, 2016, 03:24:35 AM
What about Bernard Herrmann?

Good counter-example, certainly.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 03:41:21 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 28, 2016, 01:39:36 AM
It is true for almost any art, manufacturing, events in our lives etc, etc and basically indicates that the main point i was making has in your mind been divorced from this side issue that you have latched onto. The main thrust of my argument was that by far most film music is filler, gloop, an extra. A small amout is considerably more. But not much of it. The genre has pulled in a few significant composers to produce work for the medium and of those few a subset of works have been programed along side their usual work and that of the mainstream classical composers.

But I don't think Cinema has produced any great concert composers who have produced concert work that shows signs of being programmed up against LvB, Bach etc. Williams is very popular, but his material gets played in the concert hall by orcherstas in themed programs of Film Music which seems to me to be pretty much a genre in its own right, not to be confused in Classical.

And to reaffirm: my view remains that even most good film music does not in any extended form survive divorce from that which it was designed to accompany.

Mike
Quote from: karlhenning on January 28, 2016, 03:17:58 AM
Exactly; which is the inverse of the examples of Prokofiev, Vaughan Williams, Shostakovich:  expert composers, first of all, who have written music for film.
You both make it sound as if being a 'film composer' is a 'lesser' composer in some way and that being a traditional 'classical' composer is superior in some way. Do you believe this?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 28, 2016, 03:55:41 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 03:41:21 AM
You both make it sound as if being a 'film composer' is a 'lesser' composer in some way and that being a traditional 'classical' composer is superior in some way. Do you believe this?

As a class, no. Case by case, perhaps.

I've already mentioned that Williams technique is sub-par.

I've already mentioned, too, that film is not the composer's project in the way that a string quartet, or even a ballet, is.  I can speculate that this is why Williams has not mastered the art of composition, where he is certainly a master of furnishing sonic events suitable for accompanying film.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on January 28, 2016, 07:30:42 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 28, 2016, 01:39:36 AM
But I don't think Cinema has produced any great concert composers who have produced concert work that shows signs of being programmed up against LvB, Bach etc. 

Just last month, I saw the Star Wars suite performed in concert it was along with Beethoven Eroica (heroes being the theme). 

For some people, originality = innovation of musical techniques.  For others (myself included), originality = uniqueness of overall style.  Originality is overrated.  It is very easy to be original and much harder to be good.  This is of course just my opinion but there are very few original composers.  Most that we love are still distinctive.  I listened to Tubin's Symphony No. 2 and 5 (based on comments made in his thread here) and though it has zero originality, it is distinctively his and very rewarding and I'm glad to have heard it.  It was thoroughly engaging and well written and I would love to hear more from him.  I believe almost all composers we love fall into this category of not innovative, probably derivative, but individual.  People seem to mix "innovative" with "original" and it gives others the misleading impression that there's nothing of value in a piece of music unless it does something new from a technical point of view.

It's a mode of thought that plagues contemporary concert composers and contributes to the snobbery that film music (as epitomized by Williams) is worthless music.  What makes Williams's music distinctively his, apart from the superficial things that are easy to imitate like the flashy fanfares, evil dread chorus, and such, are a multitude of small idiosyncrasies that are very non-noticeable for the average listener and take a lot of listening to start to really notice them, like the special kind of jazz-infused harmony, the kind of intervals by which he constructs both his themes and much else that's going on, etc.   I wouldn't feel qualified to specify them all, but I'm convinced that Williams's unique "style" is just a combination of so many things that is very hard to really duplicate on a deeper than reasonably superficial level, but its uniqueness pales compared to a lot of composers with more overt, easily noticeable stylistic trademarks.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 07:43:48 AM
Quote from: North Star on January 28, 2016, 03:24:35 AM
What about Bernard Herrmann?

Great film composer whose early history shows a money-where-your-mouth is far deeper commitment to classical than many another film composer. Also wrote straight-up classical more than a little well, too. He was / is outstanding, and, imo, a pretty rare exception to the norm.

It took our teen-age hotdog young musician and composer from 'down under' forum member to cut straight to the heart of this Q, though....
'Unpopular Opinions' thread, ComposerOfAvantGarde's post
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19564.msg950727.html#msg950727
[Thank you, CoAG.]
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 07:48:08 AM
Quote from: relm1 on January 28, 2016, 07:30:42 AM
Just last month, I saw the Star Wars suite performed in concert it was along with Beethoven Eroica (heroes being the theme). 

For some people, originality = innovation of musical techniques.  For others (myself included), originality = uniqueness of overall style.  Originality is overrated.  It is very easy to be original and much harder to be good.  This is of course just my opinion but there are very few original composers.  Most that we love are still distinctive.  I listened to Tubin's Symphony No. 2 and 5 (based on comments made in his thread here) and though it has zero originality, it is distinctively his and very rewarding and I'm glad to have heard it.  It was thoroughly engaging and well written and I would love to hear more from him.  I believe almost all composers we love fall into this category of not innovative, probably derivative, but individual.  People seem to mix "innovative" with "original" and it gives others the misleading impression that there's nothing of value in a piece of music unless it does something new from a technical point of view.

It's a mode of thought that plagues contemporary concert composers and contributes to the snobbery that film music (as epitomized by Williams) is worthless music.  What makes Williams's music distinctively his, apart from the superficial things that are easy to imitate like the flashy fanfares, evil dread chorus, and such, are a multitude of small idiosyncrasies that are very non-noticeable for the average listener and take a lot of listening to start to really notice them, like the special kind of jazz-infused harmony, the kind of intervals by which he constructs both his themes and much else that's going on, etc.   I wouldn't feel qualified to specify them all, but I'm convinced that Williams's unique "style" is just a combination of so many things that is very hard to really duplicate on a deeper than reasonably superficial level, but its uniqueness pales compared to a lot of composers with more overt, easily noticeable stylistic trademarks.

I really connect with this idea. I could quibble about certain aspects, but all in all, is something that meshes with my thinking. I spent the last couple of days thinking about why some people keep going back to the composers he is supposed to have stolen from and using that as a reason to lessen his work. He makes the music his own - I would never mix up the Empire Strikes Back with Holst's Mars, for example. As you put it, the music is distinctive.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 07:53:27 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 07:43:48 AM
Great film composer whose early history shows a money-where-your-mouth is far deeper commitment to classical than many another film composer. Also wrote straight-up classical more than a little well, too. He was / is outstanding, and, imo, a pretty rare exception to the norm.

It took our teen-age hotdog young musician and composer from 'down under' forum member to cut straight to the heart of this Q, though....
'Unpopular Opinions' thread, ComposerOfAvantGarde's post
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19564.msg950727.html#msg950727
[Thank you, CoAG.]
Except he's wrong in this case (or at least, partly). I have been to numerous stores (mostly in the past since most have closed), where soundtracks are in the classical section (often in a separate room with the word 'Classical' over the entrance to the door). In addition, John Williams discs (compilations for example, mostly with the Boston Pops) are always in the classical section. Another example is Erich Kunzel and the many discs he did with the Cincinnati Pops - never seen them anywhere but in classical.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Florestan on January 28, 2016, 07:56:38 AM
Quote from: relm1 on January 28, 2016, 07:30:42 AM
Originality is overrated.  It is very easy to be original and much harder to be good.  This is of course just my opinion but there are very few original composers.  Most that we love are still distinctive.  [...]  I believe almost all composers we love fall into this category of not innovative, probably derivative, but individual.  People seem to mix "innovative" with "original" and it gives others the misleading impression that there's nothing of value in a piece of music unless it does something new from a technical point of view.

+ 1

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: knight66 on January 28, 2016, 08:00:37 AM
Quote from: North Star on January 28, 2016, 03:24:35 AM
What about Bernard Herrmann?

That has been covered. How much music, pieces and time get concert coverage? Very few and very infrequently.

Mike
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: knight66 on January 28, 2016, 08:01:30 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 03:41:21 AM
You both make it sound as if being a 'film composer' is a 'lesser' composer in some way and that being a traditional 'classical' composer is superior in some way. Do you believe this?

Yes.

Mike
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: knight66 on January 28, 2016, 08:13:53 AM
Quote from: relm1 on January 28, 2016, 07:30:42 AM
Just last month, I saw the Star Wars suite performed in concert it was along with Beethoven Eroica (heroes being the theme)

It's a mode of thought that plagues contemporary concert composers and contributes to the snobbery that film music (as epitomized by Williams) is worthless music.  What makes Williams's music distinctively his, apart from the superficial things that are easy to imitate like the flashy fanfares, evil dread chorus, and such, are a multitude of small idiosyncrasies that are very non-noticeable for the average listener and take a lot of listening to start to really notice them, like the special kind of jazz-infused harmony, the kind of intervals by which he constructs both his themes and much else that's going on, etc.   I wouldn't feel qualified to specify them all, but I'm convinced that Williams's unique "style" is just a combination of so many things that is very hard to really duplicate on a deeper than reasonably superficial level, but its uniqueness pales compared to a lot of composers with more overt, easily noticeable stylistic trademarks.

Thanks re the info on the concert programming. I have never seen such pairing in the UK, though I don't scan all concert adverts across the country.

As to the rest of what I copied above; if you are going to quote me in order to suggest I am a snob; quote me accurately. I said lots of film music is sludge, some is very good, effectibve etc and some is exceptional. Williams is very skilled, but I would not pay to hear his music which is basically easy on the ear, catchy and ultimately soft centred. It is commercial. And before you start on the old chestnut of...so was Verdi, so was Puccint; then I will clarify. Williams is to a serious composer as Lloyd Webber is to Verdi. I think of Williams as equivilent to Lloyd Webber. They are/were all commercially aware, but..... Well, I don't need to finish the thought, you catch my drift.

I feel I have said what I meant to and will leave off now as we are engaged in a dialog of the deaf.

Mike
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 08:18:17 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 07:53:27 AM
Except he's wrong in this case (or at least, partly). I have been to numerous stores (mostly in the past since most have closed), where soundtracks are in the classical section (often in a separate room with the word 'Classical' over the entrance to the door). In addition, John Williams discs (compilations for example, mostly with the Boston Pops) are always in the classical section. Another example is Erich Kunzel and the many discs he did with the Cincinnati Pops - never seen them anywhere but in classical.

lol. Where do you live?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 08:18:51 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 28, 2016, 08:01:30 AM
Yes.

Mike
Ah, well perhaps here is the root of the problem. I totally disagree. Will be interested to see Karl's response...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 28, 2016, 08:22:31 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 08:18:51 AM
Ah, well perhaps here is the root of the problem. I totally disagree. Will be interested to see Karl's response...

Quote from: karlhenning on January 28, 2016, 03:55:41 AM
As a class, no. Case by case, perhaps.

I've already mentioned that Williams' technique is sub-par.

I've already mentioned, too, that film is not the composer's project in the way that a string quartet, or even a ballet, is.  I can speculate that this is why Williams has not mastered the art of composition, where he is certainly a master of furnishing sonic events suitable for accompanying film.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 08:31:49 AM
Quote from: relm1 on January 28, 2016, 07:30:42 AM
Just last month, I saw the Star Wars suite performed in concert it was along with Beethoven Eroica (heroes being the theme).

Themed concerts like ''Heroes'' are already a clue there is a marketing force at work to bring more bums into the seats. Programming the Williams at the end of the program [at least that is the most likely running order, and 'how did he know that?] is another calculated strategy to pull new bums into the seats to cultivate a younger audience, or to make up for already failing numbers of bums in the seats in general.

Hey, those strategies work.

Whether the better known and 'major' symphonic organizations will permanently change their general subscription season programming, which BTW 'is not programmed like that,' -- but instead programs film scores and lighter fare on non-subscription single event nights, 'movie night,' or summer pops programs with the more generally known and popular classical fare -- is yet to be seen. It may happen, but it will not be because the general classical community has all of a sudden decided 'this is classical,' but instead because of its commercial power to draw in customers.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 08:36:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 28, 2016, 08:22:31 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 28, 2016, 08:22:31 AM

But should we then see composers who have weaknesses (if we accept your statements as fact, which I am not ready to do, but want to put that aside for the moment) as somehow lesser in their craft? And how far does it go? When does this weakness cause the composer to be 'lesser' for lack of a better word? 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 28, 2016, 08:38:35 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 08:31:49 AM
Themed concerts like ''Heroes'' are already a clue there is a marketing force at work to bring more bums into the seats. Programming the Williams at the end of the program [at least that is the most likely running order, and 'how did he know that?] is another calculated strategy to pull new bums into the seats to cultivate a younger audience, or to make up for already failing numbers of bums in the seats in general.

Hey, those strategies work.

Whether the better known and 'major' symphonic organizations will permanently change their general subscription season programming, which BTW 'is not programmed like that,' -- but instead programs film scores and lighter fare on non-subscription single event nights, 'movie night,' or summer pops programs with the more generally known and popular classical fare -- is yet to be seen. It may happen, but it will not be because the general classical community has all of a sudden decided 'this is classical,' but instead because of its commercial power to draw in customers.

John Williams enjoys a permanent home in Boston, with the Pops. I don't think we'll see a Star Wars medley programmed on a BSO subscription concert anytime soon.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 28, 2016, 08:40:32 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 08:36:32 AM
But should we then see composers who have weaknesses (if we accept your statements as fact, which I am not ready to do, but want to put that aside for the moment) as somehow lesser in their craft?

I've submitted an orchestral score to a call.  If my scoring is bad, they will reject my score in favor of a composer who knows how to write for the instruments.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 08:48:06 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 28, 2016, 08:40:32 AM
I've submitted an orchestral score to a call.  If my scoring is bad, they will reject my score in favor of a composer who knows how to write for the instruments.
Not sure of the point.

And for the record, I'm not even talking about Williams now either, I'm being more general because it is an interesting topic to me. I say this as a lover of light music and operetta (for example), which are often looked down upon.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Florestan on January 28, 2016, 08:49:49 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 28, 2016, 08:40:32 AM
I've submitted an orchestral score to a call.  If my scoring is bad, they will reject my score in favor of a composer who knows how to write for the instruments.

Are you sure this is always the case? They might accept you instead the better orchestrator if you had some connections. :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 28, 2016, 08:53:23 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 08:48:06 AM
Not sure of the point.

That there are aspects of the craft of composition, and the "mechanics" of scores, whereby some composers will indeed be considered inferior.

When McCartney did his Liverpool Oratorio project, there was a team of actual composers engaged to overcome his technical shortcomings;  but those shortcomings are of no consequence, because of the name McCartney.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 28, 2016, 08:53:39 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 28, 2016, 08:49:49 AM
Are you sure this is always the case? They might accept you instead the better orchestrator if you had some connections. :)

That is possible.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 28, 2016, 09:00:16 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 08:48:06 AM
I say this as a lover of light music and operetta (for example), which are often looked down upon.

I have often said I'd rather listen to The Mikado than Parsifal.

(Of course, these days you can't even produce The Mikado, or for that matter Madame Butterfly, without someone screaming about anti-Oriental stereotyping. I'm not kidding:
http://www.hesherman.com/2015/10/30/yellowface-bait-and-switch-with-madama-butterfly-in-fargo/
http://www.hesherman.com/2015/09/15/putting-on-yellowface-for-the-holidays-with-gilbert-sullivan-nyu/

One company in New York had to cancel The Mikado because of complaints. I'm not quite sure the complaints were that the company put on the operetta in the first place or that they didn't use Orientals in the cast.)

Sorry for the digression. I think the matter deserves its own thread.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 09:04:53 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 03:41:21 AM
You both make it sound as if being a 'film composer' is a 'lesser' composer in some way and that being a traditional 'classical' composer is superior in some way. Do you believe this?

Only if you are assessing the two very different genres with the same set of criteria and with the same set of expectations -- in which case, yeah, a lot of film music does not hold up well against.

If instead you would assess it as film music, which about every merchant selling recordings on the planet [evidently there are some exceptions, lol. ADD - that only demonstrates the cluelessness of the owners and staff of some record shops], classical musicians, composers of both classical and film, and the better known and esteemed symphonic organizations programming already do, then it is not lesser to anything because it is being considered and assessed for what it is, and not what it isn't.

About those posts which cite a program by the local symphony programming classical and film scores side by side, I can well-guess those symphonies are the more struggling, not lesser, but struggling organizations, with far shorter seasons and a far smaller budget than the better known orchestras; these 'less major' local orchestras have far less available with which to pay royalties enabling them to program more contemporary classical works.

The cost of royalties to perform many a film score is often proportionately as high, and often even higher, than it costs to program a full-length piece by John Adams, but the greater certainty that a film score will get in many who do not regularly attend, and thinking it will make for a greater chance to sell out the house is the calculated chance they will take to make ends meet. Those organizations which are the better known 'major' orchestras of the world have no need to take such measures as far as programming, yet also both accommodate the audience for the more popular music and boost their budgets by programming it on special single concert events, or during their 'second shift' and generally more 'pops' summer season.

This is straight-ahead business, not some tidal shift within the classical community suddenly deciding that film scores are 'classical' or 'art music.'

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on January 28, 2016, 09:05:57 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 28, 2016, 08:13:53 AM
I feel I have said what I meant to and will leave off now as we are engaged in a dialog of the deaf.

Are you calling me deaf?  I take offense since I am a musician and calling a musician deaf is very insulting...relax, I know you are speaking generally as I was.   :P

Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 08:13:53 AM
Themed concerts like ''Heroes'' are already a clue there is a marketing force at work to bring more bums into the seats. Programming the Williams at the end of the program [at least that is the most likely running order, and 'how did he know that?] is another calculated strategy to pull new bums into the seats to cultivate a younger audience, or to make up for already failing numbers of bums in the seats in general.

Spend any time dealing with arts management and there is GREAT interest in marketing programs and it is a balancing act between arts and organizational leadership.  This is the reality we live in.  If they don't care about the organizational aspects, they are either living off subsidies with increasingly competitive pressure or will face hard decisions ahead to maintain viability....uh hum...video game music concerts.


Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 28, 2016, 09:08:32 AM
Quote from: relm1 on January 28, 2016, 09:05:57 AM
Are you calling me deaf?  I take offense since I am a musician and calling a musician deaf is very insulting.

Don't worry, it didn't hurt Beethoven.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 28, 2016, 09:09:03 AM
We do all agree that programming film-score music on symphony orchestra concerts is a marketing triumph.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 09:09:44 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 28, 2016, 09:00:16 AM
I have often said I'd rather listen to The Mikado than Parsifal.

(Of course, these days you can't even produce The Mikado, or for that matter Madame Butterfly, without someone screaming about anti-Oriental stereotyping. I'm not kidding:
http://www.hesherman.com/2015/10/30/yellowface-bait-and-switch-with-madama-butterfly-in-fargo/
http://www.hesherman.com/2015/09/15/putting-on-yellowface-for-the-holidays-with-gilbert-sullivan-nyu/

One company in New York had to cancel The Mikado because of complaints. I'm not quite sure the complaints were that the company put on the operetta in the first place or that they didn't use Orientals in the cast.)

Sorry for the digression. I think the matter deserves its own thread.

HEAR, HEAR.
Add egregious crimes against the arts of a culture to the long list of victims of Political Correctness that has already run to insanely ridiculous extremes. We all already know any kind of extremism is pretty fookin' awful... now we all have to recognize and revolt against the extremism in our own nations, whatever their stripe.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 09:15:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 28, 2016, 09:09:03 AM
We do all agree that programming film-score music on symphony orchestra concerts is a marketing triumph.

...Pyrrhic victory though that is, 'a triumph, nonetheless.'  :-[
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 09:19:27 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 28, 2016, 08:53:23 AM
That there are aspects of the craft of composition, and the "mechanics" of scores, whereby some composers will indeed be considered inferior.

But that doesn't tell me much. An aspect can be inferior and the person can still be a great composer, right? Or would you disagree with that?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 28, 2016, 09:22:19 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 09:19:27 AM
But that doesn't tell me much. An aspect can be inferior and the person can still be a great composer, right? Or would you disagree with that?

I'd say it depends on how fundamental the flaw is.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 09:35:48 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 28, 2016, 09:22:19 AM
I'd say it depends on how fundamental the flaw is.
That doesn't help much either, but perhaps this is the wrong thread to have the conversation...it's a bit loaded, if you know what I mean...
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 28, 2016, 09:36:38 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 09:35:48 AM
That doesn't help much either, but perhaps this is the wrong thread to have the conversation...it's a bit loaded, if you know what I mean...

I think I do  :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 09:36:52 AM
Quote from: relm1 on January 28, 2016, 09:05:57 AM
Are you calling me deaf?  I take offense since I am a musician and calling a musician deaf is very insulting...relax, I know you are speaking generally as I was.   :P

Spend any time dealing with arts management and there is GREAT interest in marketing programs and it is a balancing act between arts and organizational leadership.  This is the reality we live in.  If they don't care about the organizational aspects, they are either living off subsidies with increasingly competitive pressure or will face hard decisions ahead to maintain viability....uh hum...video game music concerts.

A-yep. Already happening. I seriously doubt that will ever change the perception of musicians or composers that film and video game music is classical, while those genres are what they are.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 09:45:21 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 09:19:27 AM
But that doesn't tell me much. An aspect can be inferior and the person can still be a great composer, right? Or would you disagree with that?

The composers who are generally considered 'the greatest' do not usually prompt citations of a fair to long list of weaknesses in their works -- that is the measure no matter the genre, too. Some 'great' composers are notably uneven in the quality of their overall output [Shostakovich, Milhaud, Beethoven, even.]

Its that 'as close to perfection, if you changed, added, or removed any tiny bit of it, it would be less' criterion. I.e. pretty damned near flawless is the across the board high standard. :)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 10:05:51 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 28, 2016, 08:53:23 AM
That there are aspects of the craft of composition, and the "mechanics" of scores, whereby some composers will indeed be considered inferior.

When McCartney did his Liverpool Oratorio project, there was a team of actual composers engaged to overcome his technical shortcomings;  but those shortcomings are of no consequence, because of the name McCartney.

I beg to differ.

Other than a few die-hard McCartney fans who might have written reviews, attended the [few] concert performances and bought the recording, that piece was near to universally panned.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Brahmsian on January 28, 2016, 10:08:47 AM
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/John-T.-Williams/Composer/13089-1
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on January 28, 2016, 10:11:44 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 28, 2016, 10:08:47 AM
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/John-T.-Williams/Composer/13089-1

If you had shared this link with us on page 1, you would have saved 42 pages of headache!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Brahmsian on January 28, 2016, 10:16:58 AM
Quote from: relm1 on January 28, 2016, 10:11:44 AM
If you had shared this link with us on page 1, you would have saved 42 pages of headache!  :laugh:

:D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 10:19:40 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 28, 2016, 10:08:47 AM
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/John-T.-Williams/Composer/13089-1

lol. Read in the upper left-hand box the ''Composition Types.''

One of them is ''Film Scores,'' though those are in the highest number of his overall output, they are still the one genre apart from his listed classical comps. I.e. the site clearly mentions and separates them from his classical works and qualifies them as 'film score.'

Once again, we have it confirmed, even on a site with intent on informing about and selling both classical and film score recordings...
His film scores are not classical; his classical pieces are not film scores... yawn.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Brahmsian on January 28, 2016, 10:27:49 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 10:19:40 AM
lol. Read in the upper left-hand box the ''Composition Types.''

One of them is ''Film Scores,'' though those are in the highest number of his overall output, they are still the one genre apart from his listed classical comps. I.e. the site clearly mentions and separates them from his classical works and qualifies them as 'film score.'

If he hadn't composed those classical pieces, I doubt he would be listed on that site.

Once again, we have it confirmed, by a classical music site...
His film scores are not classical; his classical pieces are not film scores... yawn.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Alexandre-Desplat/Composer/110181-1
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 10:40:16 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 28, 2016, 10:27:49 AM
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Alexandre-Desplat/Composer/110181-1

Quote from: ChamberNut on January 28, 2016, 10:27:49 AM
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Alexandre-Desplat/Composer/110181-1

I quickly edited my post after looking up Bernard Herrman on the same site. The thrust of the site is, still, directly or indirectly, marketing stuff to sell.

The Bernard Herrman listing is heavily laden with a looong list of works, almost all his film scores, with but one or two of his classical pieces [he wrote more], and none of it really broken down to genre, film score or otherwise.

The listings are not, then, consistent in format from one to the next, at all, and seem to generally be about marketing what is available to the public.

Ahhhh, the internet, where even those of us who are a bit cautious can think that if it is in virtual print on a somewhat credible appearing site, it must be a fact.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on January 28, 2016, 01:20:03 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 28, 2016, 09:09:03 AM
We do all agree that programming film-score music on symphony orchestra concerts is a marketing triumph.

Not that I'm keeping track but so far there is a stipulation that:
1. Writing good music is not a requirement to be a concert composer (not that this is relevant to this topic but it keeps coming up and is repeatedly conceded).
2. Programming film-score music on symphony orchestra concerts is a marketing triumph (it behooves the organizers to include audience friendly programming to remain viable)

And then we need to agree on this:
3. Originality is less important than individuality and is not a requirement for a composer (otherwise 99% of composers we all love wouldn't qualify).
4. Music adapted for purposes of concert performance in classical settings from a non classical origin (eg: West Side Story, Scott of Antarctica) could be classical music.

So now, the question is where do you draw the line for point 4?  I believe that Justin Bieber adapted for the London Philharmonic would NOT be classical music so maybe we are all in agreement after all and this is a discussion of degree.

I think by the time we're at page 90 of this thread we'll be in agreement... :P
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 04:00:03 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 28, 2016, 01:20:03 PM
Not that I'm keeping track but so far there is a stipulation that:
1. Writing good music is not a requirement to be a concert composer (not that this is relevant to this topic but it keeps coming up and is repeatedly conceded).
Gabriel Pierne / Carl Jenkins / John Rutter / ca. half of Shostakovich / Howard Hanson / Anton Rubenstein, that having named but a few. The lesser than these are the hundreds no one even bothers to list as having been an active part of the scene in some prior musical eras. So, sure, there have been second and third-rate composers as well as quite a number of flat-out hacks who had full careers along with their moments in the sun.

Quote from: relm1 on January 28, 2016, 01:20:03 PM
2. Programming film-score music on symphony orchestra concerts is a marketing triumph (it behooves the organizers to include audience friendly programming to remain viable.)
Unless I was mistaken, that was meant to be deeply sardonic as well as an expression of regret over the free-fall in matters of quality that kind of programming signals due to the tastes and attention spans of a newer generation of audience as consumers.

Quote from: relm1 on January 28, 2016, 01:20:03 PMAnd then we need to agree on this:
3. Originality is less important than individuality and is not a requirement for a composer (otherwise 99% of composers we all love wouldn't qualify).
Novelty for its own sake, without something of substance to back it up, generally determines its own fate of a fast fadeout into total obscurity, or at most a minor historical footnote.
If we will all be realistic for a moment, and not kidults, while everyone is indeed 'individual' we have to concede the truth we already know... that not all individuals are born equal, and some individuals are going to be found to be of infinitely greater interest than others. Same goes for the varied quality of individualism of composers. [Delius vs. Poulenc / Michael Gordon vs. Steve Reich] There. P.C. promoted myth cookie, crumbled.
...A perfectly realized dramatization on both this and your first point, Salieri, the most popular composer throughout Europe, contrasted with the usurper of that status, Mozart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlPQD04tn88

Quote from: relm1 on January 28, 2016, 01:20:03 PM
4. Music adapted for purposes of concert performance in classical settings from a non classical origin (eg: West Side Story, Scott of Antarctica) could be classical music.
So now, the question is where do you draw the line for point 4?  I believe... maybe we are all in agreement after all and this is a discussion of degree.
This is a matter of degrees. The Bernstein Dances is already an anomoly in situ aside its less than average yet fully mainstream set of Broadway Musical 'show tunes.' Lenny 'slipped that one in,' and its not being a vocal number, he 'got away with it' in that context of show music. It lifts readily out of context, like some other dance/ballet music, and sits well enough in the concert hall. [I still call it 'show music,' but that doesn't stop me from thinking it works in a concert context.] Vaughan William's piece is not his best, but he was a highly adept symphonist, so had the tools to rework that score into a passable symphony.

Quote from: relm1 on January 28, 2016, 01:20:03 PMI think by the time we're at page 90 of this thread we'll be in agreement... :P
I'm a near bona fide Pollyana-type optimist, but you outstrip me in thinking that any real agreement here might be reached by page... not that I am keeping track, either. :P


Best regards.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: kishnevi on January 28, 2016, 05:16:42 PM
Does this mean we should move this thread into the Diner?
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8728.0/topicseen.html
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 10:57:09 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 28, 2016, 05:16:42 PM
Does this mean we should move this thread into the Diner?
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8728.0/topicseen.html

Nawwww. Consider this thread, in the Beginner's Category, like a bit of benevolent hazing where the pledges are left to think they have a vote in rewriting the books on musical genres [unaware they are bumbling about in trying to re-categorize already intelligently and reasonably set categories and genres], or as I've seen elsewhere, redefining 'what Romantic' is as applied to classical music vs. the accepted musicological/historic usage... and hey, it is a bit safe to also assume that is a ditto for 'Neoclassical,' too. It is often in the stumbling about that people learn a lot, myself included. :)

Most people truly interested in something they are not so versed in will eventually pick up, on their own and from others, the basics and further, so no harm really done. Unless you think the mods or a software bot should detain and reroute such questions as the OP, tantamount to forcing instruction on those members [''Me teacher; you student''] -- which seems to me more than a little depriving of the ''voluntary'' element... those who are yet uncertain or undecided will eventually come to that thread headed ''film music'' or some other post, and still, I prefer they be free to make their own conclusions.

I revel in a forum whose members are a total olio range from the well-informed, both the autodidact and the academic and the professionally experienced with the whole nine yards of wax-and-seals creds [and the fact those creds are rarely put on parade to 'prove their authority,' makes for a very nice take it or leave it situation, thank you very much] through to the neophytes who come here with their ardent curiosities about things classical [''I like heavy metal and want to know about more classical, what do you guys recommend''] and all the like, freely interacting in a near anarchic -- the ideal sort, not the pejorative mistaken usage -- and friendly environment.


Best regards.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on January 29, 2016, 12:42:43 PM
This is a nice example of Star Wars being used to introduce classical music to a broader audience:

https://soundcloud.com/classicalclassroom/classicalclassroom-show115-bmitchell-starwars201final

Houston Public Media classical music librarian, Dacia Clay has a secret: she knows next to nothing about classical music. But she wants to learn! Luckily, she's surrounded by classical music experts every day. In each episode of the Classical Classroom, Dacia's colleagues and some local classical music luminaries take turns giving her classical music "homework assignments". You'll learn about everything from bel canto aria to the use of leitmotif in the score to Star Wars. Come learn with us in the Classical Classroom.

Yes, it is very basic but it is great for people like my non-musician friends and family.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 29, 2016, 01:05:33 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 29, 2016, 12:42:43 PM
This is a nice example of Star Wars being used to introduce classical music to a broader audience:

https://soundcloud.com/classicalclassroom/classicalclassroom-show115-bmitchell-starwars201final

Houston Public Media classical music librarian, Dacia Clay has a secret: she knows next to nothing about classical music. But she wants to learn! Luckily, she's surrounded by classical music experts every day. In each episode of the Classical Classroom, Dacia's colleagues and some local classical music luminaries take turns giving her classical music "homework assignments". You'll learn about everything from bel canto aria to the use of leitmotif in the score to Star Wars. Come learn with us in the Classical Classroom.

Yes, it is very basic but it is great for people like my non-musician friends and family.

That is probably parsecs ahead of torturing the poor little tykes with Till Eulenspiegel right off the bat ;)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Florestan on January 30, 2016, 06:24:33 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 29, 2016, 01:05:33 PM
That is probably parsecs ahead of torturing the poor little tykes with Til Eulenspiegel right off the bat ;)

Whoa, whoa, whoa, come on, now! Est modus in rebus, Mr. Croche! What´s wrong with Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche pray tell?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on January 30, 2016, 09:41:57 AM
Never mind Star wars soundtracks, what about his scores to Indiana Jones movies? "Map room: dawn" from Raiders is immensely effective piece.

Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on January 30, 2016, 09:43:32 AM
Just kidding: I love star wars soundtracks. But they often tend to overshadow his other great works such as in this case Indiana Jones OST:s.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 31, 2016, 12:14:46 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 30, 2016, 06:24:33 AM
Whoa, whoa, whoa, come on, now! Est modus in rebus, Mr. Croche! What´s wrong with Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche pray tell?

Everythang....
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 31, 2016, 12:46:05 AM
Quote from: Alberich on January 30, 2016, 09:41:57 AM
Never mind Star wars soundtracks, what about his scores to Indiana Jones movies? "Map room: dawn" from Raiders is immensely effective piece.

Ultimately and as usual, this is all a matter of personal opinion. I don't think anywhere through this thread has anyone flat-out said John Williams was not an effective film composer, film scoring having been the majority of work he has done.

I think I've seen all the Indiana Jones flicks, and don't recall, either, thinking while watching at any place in those movies, ''Hmmm, the scoring and/or underscoring seems wildly inappropriate.''

On its own [I listened to the segment] it is to me just more of that oleo of styles derivative of any number of earlier classical composers and/or other already existing generic film music, the combined gestures, whichever genre was the source, are now like coins of the realm -- pennies which have passed through and been similarly spent by many a hand.

Musically, self-standing, I thought, 'meh,' where in the film context it probably did its job and certainly did not distract. That is the majority of what film music is and does; I find Williams' output there no different, i.e. does its job, mainly 'does not distract,' and where called for, 'drives the scene.' Apart from when in context of the films of which the music is a part, none of his film score music -- to me -- holds any charge or interest on its own. Isolated, imo, it sounds like upscale cheese on a shtick.


Best regards.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 31, 2016, 12:47:17 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 30, 2016, 06:24:33 AM
Whoa, whoa, whoa, come on, now! Est modus in rebus, Mr. Croche! What´s wrong with Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche pray tell?
Obviously, you didn't see the diatribe against tone poems....
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: knight66 on January 31, 2016, 01:05:13 AM
Not that this is about the topic of the conversation: but, when I was young, a generation ago, the critical temperature regarding Richard Strauss was very different in the UK than it is now. Then he seemed to be regarded as a guilty pleasure, you listen to Also Sprach at a concert, then go home and wash youself down in Dettol. He was regarded somewhat as a supreme orchestrator with largely empty music. Good for films probably. I have not read those kinds of caveats for years. His place in the musical structures seems to have changed. Partly it may have been an underlying dislike of him remaining in and working in Germany during WWII and perhaps that has faded from the minds of the UK critics by now.

Mike
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 31, 2016, 03:09:02 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 31, 2016, 01:05:13 AM
Not that this is about the topic of the conversation: but, when I was young, a generation ago, the critical temperature regarding Richard Strauss was very different in the UK than it is now. Then he seemed to be regarded as a guilty pleasure, you listen to Also Sprach at a concert, then go home and wash youself down in Dettol. He was regarded somewhat as a supreme orchestrator with largely empty music. Good for films probably. I have not read those kinds of caveats for years. His place in the musical structures seems to have changed. Partly it may have been an underlying dislike of him remaining in and working in Germany during WWII and perhaps that has faded from the minds of the UK critics by now.

Mike

I think that sort of aversion about the political was far less in the States, i.e. R. Strauss' concert works were programmed often enough through the post-war decades, including the less-frequently occurring Burlesque for two pianos and orchestra and the Oboe Concerto.

It is likely the resentment in the U.S. was less because, although from that war there were crazy and horrible losses in the personal memories of many Americans, no one 'at home' had lived through having their city bombed, for example. [Post war, the U.S. got half of the German scientists -- responsible for developing so many of those tools of destruction -- and the Soviets got the other half.;D] The U.S. got a lot of refugee composers, pre and post-war, and maybe that also had something to do with the general atmosphere being more open to the works by those who had remained in Germany.

The opposite of what you report seems to be the case here, i.e. Strauss' concert music, post sixties and certainly by the seventies, is less frequently performed than it was up through the sixties, as if it has somewhat faded from 'the general tastes, or fashion,' all on its own.

Through the 'fifties and sixties, other than Copland, Strauss may have been one of the more regularly programmed of living composers in the States, I think in part because he was both 'contemporary' yet so near to completely romantic -- which 'back then' went down far more easily and more readily with the general public than say Bartok or even Shostakovich.

His strongest contribution, imo, is none of the symphonic works, but is the operas. Those do seem to have been for a long time a routine part of the regularly performed rep wherever there is a decent sized opera house with a full enough season.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: knight66 on January 31, 2016, 03:31:40 AM
Probably we are diverting this thread, so I won't say much. I agree that Strauss's most significant pieces are his operas. But beyond the obvious handful, he has a hinterland of quite difficult pieces that are rarely performed. These show a serious composer striving to get ideas out there and in many cases ignoring commercial needs.

Thread duty: perhaps his increasing acceptance here is influenced by the enjoyment of the blockbuster concert with huge orchestral pieces on display. His music is echoed by quite a bit of film music. It might be that promoters are influenced by the enjoyment of the big film scores to put on the closest classical equivalent.

Over here we had Ken Russel who made films about musicians whenre he used the relevent composer's music and often choreographed the action around the music. He had quite a noticable impact on how music was used in a visual medium. I wonder if he had influence on any modern American directors?

Mike
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Florestan on January 31, 2016, 09:22:19 AM
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 31, 2016, 12:14:46 AM
Everythang....

Deeply insightful and very illuminating analysis. Not that I expected any less, but still, your contributions to this board are of the highest quality. It would really have been a pity not to have you among us.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Monsieur Croche on January 31, 2016, 09:40:37 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 31, 2016, 09:22:19 AM
Deeply insightful and very illuminating analysis. Not that I expected any less, but still, your contributions to this board are of the highest quality. It would really have been a pity not to have you among us.

I had no intent of making a deeply insightful and very illuminating analysis.

It was Till Eulenspiegel we were talking about, a piece which could be arrested for public exposure because 'explanatory self-exposure' is built into it and nothing further about it needs to be said when and where ever it shows up in sound, in person.

When asked ''what is wrong with... ,''  I went straight to my heartfelt and truthful answer, saved everyone time.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: HIPster on February 01, 2016, 03:41:57 PM
(http://www.philzone.org/discus/messages/439459/1038775.jpg)

I voted Yes.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Bogey on February 01, 2016, 03:48:57 PM
Nice, Dave!

This is kind of neat:

Star Wars music: What were John Williams's classical influences?

http://www.classicalmpr.org/story/2015/10/20/star-wars-john-williams-influences
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on February 06, 2016, 04:24:08 PM
Some of you might enjoy this:
http://site-323590.bcvp0rtal.com/detail/videos/living-composers/video/4397797764001/john-williams-flute-concerto?autoStart=true
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: jochanaan on February 11, 2016, 03:58:52 PM
Quote from: relm1 on February 06, 2016, 04:24:08 PM
Some of you might enjoy this:
http://site-323590.bcvp0rtal.com/detail/videos/living-composers/video/4397797764001/john-williams-flute-concerto?autoStart=true
I do!  It appears that Mr. Williams can indeed write good "classical" music. ;D
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 15, 2016, 04:48:33 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on February 11, 2016, 03:58:52 PM
I do!  It appears that Mr. Williams can indeed write good "classical" music. ;D

I'd agree it falls under the heading of "classical," and yes, he can put together a decent musical argument. But to me the whole thing sounded generic, unoriginal, and dull.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on February 15, 2016, 05:06:00 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 15, 2016, 04:48:33 AM
I'd agree it falls under the heading of "classical," and yes, he can put together a decent musical argument. But to me the whole thing sounded generic, unoriginal, and dull.

From this discussion (I have not heard the piece, and do not have an opinion) I wonder, had the piece been written by anyone not named John Williams, would it ever have been performed.
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 15, 2016, 05:15:56 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 15, 2016, 05:06:00 AM
From this discussion (I have not heard the piece, and do not have an opinion) I wonder, had the piece been written by anyone not named John Williams, would it ever have been performed.

I can't deny I felt the same way, Karl. Reminds me of a couple of plays I saw by the actor Jesse Eisenberg. No doubt he's a brilliant actor - his portrayal of Mark Zuckerberg in "The Social Network" was a cinema classic in capturing a sociopathic entrepreneur - but both of his plays (in which he also acted) were savaged by the critics, and I thought with justice. Even though he somehow got Vanessa Redgrave to co-star with him, I thought he too was given much more of an opportunity than he would have had as an unknown. And would I have gone had it not been for the name?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on February 15, 2016, 09:11:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 15, 2016, 05:06:00 AM
From this discussion (I have not heard the piece, and do not have an opinion) I wonder, had the piece been written by anyone not named John Williams, would it ever have been performed.

Interesting counterpoint to my point that JW is unfairly disliked in concert halls because of his popularity. 
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: relm1 on February 27, 2016, 12:04:17 PM
Alex Ross agrees with me.
http://www.scpr.org/programs/offramp/2016/02/24/46634/oscars-how-star-wars-composer-john-williams-saved/
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 07, 2016, 08:21:50 AM
More proof that some film soundtracks are classical music? The Cleveland Orchestra will play Herrmann's Psycho in a series of concerts next January at Severance Hall (James Gaffigan conducting):

HERRMANN - Suite from Psycho
GERSHWIN - Rhapsody in Blue
BARTÓK - Concerto for Orchestra


Sarge
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Brahmsian on March 07, 2016, 08:30:12 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 07, 2016, 08:21:50 AM
More proof that some film soundtracks are classical music? The Cleveland Orchestra will play Herrmann's Psycho in a series of concerts next January at Severance Hall (James Gaffigan conducting):

HERRMANN - Suite from Psycho
GERSHWIN - Rhapsody in Blue
BARTÓK - Concerto for Orchestra


Sarge

Very nice!
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: Karl Henning on March 07, 2016, 09:21:07 AM
Herrmann belongs on a concert program  8)
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on March 07, 2016, 10:05:24 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 07, 2016, 08:21:50 AM
More proof that some film soundtracks are classical music? The Cleveland Orchestra will play Herrmann's Psycho in a series of concerts next January at Severance Hall (James Gaffigan conducting):

HERRMANN - Suite from Psycho
GERSHWIN - Rhapsody in Blue
BARTÓK - Concerto for Orchestra


Sarge

How is that "proof"?

If James programmed a "suite" from the latest album from Lady Gaga, would Lady Gaga also be classical music?
Title: Re: Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?
Post by: James on March 08, 2016, 01:59:09 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 07, 2016, 08:21:50 AM(James Gaffigan conducting):

Jimmie's conducting .. ? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Gaffigan) .. that explains it.

(http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Jim-Gaffigan-stand-up-comedy-487760_247_330.jpg)