GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: karlhenning on April 09, 2007, 08:13:49 AM

Title: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on April 09, 2007, 08:13:49 AM
Carrying on from here. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,702.0.html)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on April 09, 2007, 08:32:43 AM
Other threads in The Old Place:

Celebrating Shostakovich! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,11091.0.html)

Shostakovich (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,5558.0.html)

Shostakovich, what about this set? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,10920.0.html)

Shostakovich and Prokofiev (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,8261.0.html)

Anybody watched "Testimony"? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,4430.0.html)

And, what the hey:

Boris Tishchenko!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,1482.0.html)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on April 09, 2007, 03:51:18 PM
I love the 5th with all my heart.  (Not as much as #10, mind you), but I just finished listening to it again, and I came to realize again that the last moments of the 1st movements are nearly the most spooky and frightening parts of the whole symphony.  And I also love the 3rd movement, but it's frightening in a different sense I think. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on April 10, 2007, 04:52:23 AM
Quote from: Haffner on April 10, 2007, 04:25:03 AM
Buona Mattina, Maestro Karl! Do you ever feel even in the least a bit gloomy, listening to such sometimes-infinitely-dark Shostakovich pieces?

Although, when I am in the mood for lighter-toned music, Shostakovich will not do . . . in general, I think of the difference, for example, between (say) Giotto and Rembrandt:

(http://condor.depaul.edu/~szurawsk/236renaissance/giotto.jpg)

(http://faculty.evansville.edu/rl29/art105/img/rembrandt_abraham.jpg)

The tone-scale of Rembrandt tends always to be darker than, well, a number of other artists/styles/epochs, but the message is still one of Light.

With Shostakovich, on the other hand, it would be much overstepping bounds to consider the 'message' of his music a matter of Light.  Still, in the quartets he was more at musical liberty than in the more public works (and I speak as one who loves the great majority of the symphonies, for instance);  these, at least, are fifteen pieces in which the composer is thinking pretty much only of his Muse, and the four players.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on April 10, 2007, 05:26:51 AM
Quote from: Ring_of_fire on April 09, 2007, 03:51:18 PM
I love the 5th with all my heart.  (Not as much as #10, mind you)

This is one reason (of many) that I admire Shostakovich so much. The casual reaction to a composer after Beethoven who has written 15 symphonies is, perhaps, to suppose that the writing of a symphony becomes somehow 'mechanical'.  But Shostakovich (notwithstanding the 'family resemblance' of materials which sometimes connects different pieces — such as "Macpherson Before His Execution" from the Six Romances on Verses of English Poets, Opus 62 and "Humour" from the Thirteenth Symphony 'Babi Yar') never wrote the same piece twice, and the difference in profile between even consecutive symphonies (the Fourth and Fifth being, understandably, perhaps the most dramatic examples) is striking, and telling.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on April 11, 2007, 10:18:24 AM
Quote from: edward on April 11, 2007, 10:05:41 AM
I know this must come as a terrible shock to a lot of people (cough), but I really like the light touch of Ancerl in this symphony. Plus it comes with an unconventional--but IMO very effective--interpretation of the 5th symphony.

How unconventional, Edward?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: not edward on April 11, 2007, 10:40:33 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 11, 2007, 10:18:24 AM
How unconventional, Edward?
Well, I find that Ancerl's reading makes no attempt to foreground the drama in the work. (Very different from, say, a Kondrashin or Mravinsky.)

To me it works extremely well throughout...just letting the music speak for itself, but I've spoken to and read quite a few people who absolutely hated the recording for the selfsame reason that I like it so much.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on April 11, 2007, 10:48:27 AM
Quote from: edward on April 11, 2007, 10:40:33 AM
Well, I find that Ancerl's reading makes no attempt to foreground the drama in the work. (Very different from, say, a Kondrashin or Mravinsky.)

To me it works extremely well throughout...just letting the music speak for itself, but I've spoken to and read quite a few people who absolutely hated the recording for the selfsame reason that I like it so much.

Very interesting, thanks.

In a similar vein, I have really enjoyed the Sergey Khachatryan recording of the Violin Concertos.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on April 14, 2007, 01:06:38 PM
Listening to the 10th, 5th, and 8th today,  (With the 10th's Moderato beginning), Shostakovich wrote brilliant slow movements, such as the largo in the 5th, and 8th, the 2 adagios in the 13th, and the adagio in the 11th and 7th.  his quicker movements are great to, but the slower one's are especially beautiful
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Don Giovanni on April 14, 2007, 02:10:44 PM
I love Shotakovich's String Quartets. My favourites are: 8, 10, 14, 15. The 15th is unbearably yet hauntingly beautiful - I love it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: quintett op.57 on April 14, 2007, 07:17:46 PM
I don't know which one I prefer, but the CD I'm listening now (8,7,3) is perfect
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on April 15, 2007, 06:43:45 PM
I wish the 2nd violin concerto got more coverage.  I mean, I love the first one, but the 2nd one is often overlooked, and it's one of his best pieces, I think. 

And I think I also prefer the 2nd concerto to the first.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: S709 on April 15, 2007, 06:50:07 PM
Yes indeed, the 2nd VC is a great work, and its conclusion is one of the most violent/powerful/'modernist' things in DSCH.

But then again in this piece there is no really emotional sweeping lyricism like in the Passacaglia of the 1st VC. But perhaps it's just more subtle. I can't at the moment recall much of the slow movement of VC2...

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on April 15, 2007, 06:57:06 PM
Quote from: Xantus' Murrelet on April 15, 2007, 06:50:07 PM
Yes indeed, the 2nd VC is a great work, and its conclusion is one of the most violent/powerful/'modernist' things in DSCH.

But then again in this piece there is no really emotional sweeping lyricism like in the Passacaglia of the 1st VC. But perhaps it's just more subtle. I can't at the moment recall much of the slow movement of VC2...


The Passacaglia in the First concerto is perhaps my favorite movement of his entire output (Competing with the first movement of the 10th symphony), but as a whole I enjoy the 2nd concerto more.

*please note:  I have the right to change my mind at any time*
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on April 15, 2007, 07:52:06 PM
I'll join in the chorus of wondering why the Second Violin Concerto gets so little love (without turning our musical backs upon the First).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Danny on April 15, 2007, 07:54:34 PM
For me, Shosty was the more accessible of the two (ie, between him and Prokofiev).  Mitya's music had a depth, warmth, and charm that I didn't find, at first, in Sergei.  Hearing Prokofiev, in my experience, was like first listening to Bach, Debussy and Schoenberg:  it took many attempts, the right work and environment to see the genius.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on April 15, 2007, 07:56:06 PM
Very interesting, Danny!  I haven't thought about this in a while, but I agree that in general there is something a little more 'classicist' in Prokofiev's work, in general.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Danny on April 15, 2007, 08:00:27 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 15, 2007, 07:56:06 PM
Very interesting, Danny!  I haven't thought about this in a while, but I agree that in general there is something a little more 'classicist' in Prokofiev's work, in general.

Thank you, Dr. Karl. :D

Loved your Giotto/Rembrandt analogy, btw.  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on April 15, 2007, 08:06:18 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 15, 2007, 07:52:06 PM
I'll join in the chorus of wondering why the Second Violin Concerto gets so little love (without turning our musical backs upon the First).
Could it be that it's so much darker then the first, like the 2nd Cello concerto is darker than the first? 

Then again, is C# minor an easy key for the violin?  That also could be why.  I don't know, I'm not a violinist.  I just know it's an often too neglected work, that should really be equal of the first.  They are both wonderful works.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maciek on April 16, 2007, 11:29:06 AM
Quote from: Ring_of_fire on April 15, 2007, 06:57:06 PM
The Passacaglia in the First concerto is perhaps my favorite movement of his entire output

Same feelings here. I can hardly think of another piece of music that would stir my feelings to such an extent. And every single time too!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on April 16, 2007, 11:39:21 AM
Quote from: MrOsa on April 16, 2007, 11:29:06 AM
Same feelings here. I can hardly think of another piece of music that would stir my feelings to such an extent. And every single time too!

Agreed.  That "Passacaglia" is one of the highlights of the First, which is my favorite violin concerto (by a slight margin, of many).  I just heard it again last Saturday night by Lisa Batiashvili (with Oramo and the NY Phil), who played it with steely assurance.  Her performance was distinguished by her ability to project: every single note was audible in the orchestral mix.  Sometimes you can see performers executing the furious runs in the "Scherzo" or the final "Burlesca" but you can't really hear what they're playing.  That wasn't a problem here. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on April 16, 2007, 01:35:02 PM
Quote from: bhodges on April 16, 2007, 11:39:21 AM
Agreed.  That "Passacaglia" is one of the highlights of the First, which is my favorite violin concerto (by a slight margin, of many).  I just heard it again last Saturday night by Lisa Batiashvili (with Oramo and the NY Phil), who played it with steely assurance.  Her performance was distinguished by her ability to project: every single note was audible in the orchestral mix.  Sometimes you can see performers executing the furious runs in the "Scherzo" or the final "Burlesca" but you can't really hear what they're playing.  That wasn't a problem here. 

--Bruce
Sounds like a good concert :)

I still remember the trip I took last year to see the NYPO play that (and Shosty 10) with Venegrov and Rostropovich conducting
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on April 16, 2007, 01:39:37 PM
Quote from: Ring_of_fire on April 16, 2007, 01:35:02 PM
Sounds like a good concert :)

I still remember the trip I took last year to see the NYPO play that (and Shosty 10) with Venegrov and Rostropovich conducting

That Vengerov performance was amazing.  He found a little bit more depth in the piece (and it was interesting to see his interpretation grow even more since his 1995 recording), but Batiashvili was excellent in her own way.  Her accuracy was formidable, helped by Oramo's more moderate speeds, allowing her to register every single note.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on April 19, 2007, 09:21:25 AM
Don, have you heard Olli Mustonen's series interleaving JS Bach and the Shostakovich Opus 87?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Don on April 19, 2007, 09:35:48 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 19, 2007, 09:21:25 AM
Don, have you heard Olli Mustonen's series interleaving JS Bach and the Shostakovich Opus 87?

Yes, and I don't think very well of the interpretations.  They are highly self-indugent, particularly in the Bach where he butchers the music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on April 20, 2007, 11:44:59 PM
I'm tempted to buy the Kondrashin box set of symphonies although it is not cheap. Does anyone have them? I'd be interested to hear views. I have separate Melodiya discs of Symphony 4 (magnificent) and nos 9 and 15 (I'm surprised that Maxim Shostakovich's premiere recording has never made it to CD).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 21, 2007, 02:19:42 AM
Quote from: bhodges on April 16, 2007, 11:39:21 AM
Agreed.  That "Passacaglia" is one of the highlights of the First, which is my favorite violin concerto (by a slight margin, of many).  I just heard it again last Saturday night by Lisa Batiashvili (with Oramo and the NY Phil), who played it with steely assurance.  Her performance was distinguished by her ability to project: every single note was audible in the orchestral mix.  Sometimes you can see performers executing the furious runs in the "Scherzo" or the final "Burlesca" but you can't really hear what they're playing.  That wasn't a problem here. 
--Bruce

I'll be hearing her myself next week: she's playing the Sibelius Monday and Tuesday in Ludwigshafen and the Prokofiev Second in Mainz Friday evening. Based on your review, it appears I have something to look forward to.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on April 24, 2007, 06:21:04 AM
Part of my Explorations in Listening this long weekend past, was (believe it or not) the Song of the Forests, Opus 81.  And it is good!  Imagine my surprise when my friend played this for me, and I realized that there was no reason to despise the piece . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on April 26, 2007, 12:28:06 PM
Love the Opus 46 Pushkin settings.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 17, 2007, 05:34:14 AM
Yesterday, I spent perhaps forty minutes leafing through David Hurwitz's Shostakovich Symphonies and Concertos - An Owner's Manual at the School Street Borders.  As the spirit of the title promises (and, to be sure, as one expects from Hurwitz), this is a book oriented not to experienced musicians, but to the amateur trying to make sense of It All.  It really isn't bad, all in all;  though there is the odd attitude, and the occasional trotting out of an idée reçue which prompts one, not to want to strangle Hurwitz (which would be distastefully extreme), but to leisurely bung some rotten fruit at him.  Against that, he's made some earnest attempt at illustrating the form and musical content of many of the works, which is a matter entirely different to the shallow rantage customary in many of his recordings reviews.  In some respects, really an interesting read, though from this senator's standpoint, a book I might browse at the bookstore, but not one I need on the shelf at home.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BachQ on May 17, 2007, 05:37:59 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 17, 2007, 05:34:14 AM
Yesterday, I spent perhaps forty minutes leafing through David Hurwitz's Shostakovich Symphonies and Concertos - An Owner's Manual at the School Street Borders.  As the spirit of the title promises (and, to be sure, as one expects from Hurwitz), this is a book oriented not to experienced musicians, but to the amateur trying to make sense of It All.  It really isn't bad, all in all;  though there is the odd attitude, and the occasional trotting out of an idée reçue which prompts one, not to want to strangle Hurwitz (which would be distastefully extreme), but to leisurely bung some rotten fruit at him.  Against that, he's made some earnest attempt at illustrating the form and musical content of many of the works, which is a matter entirely different to the shallow rantage customary in many of his recordings reviews.  In some respects, really an interesting read, though from this senator's standpoint, a book I might browse at the bookstore, but not one I need on the shelf at home.

Karl, I think it's high time that you write a book on Shosty's symphony cycle.  I'll volunteer as a contributing author for sym's 5 and 12 . . . . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on May 22, 2007, 10:49:07 AM
Jansons take on the 14th symphony is really good I think.  Which kinda came to light after a 2nd or 3rd time listening to it. When I first listened to it, it came off to me as decent, not great, but not bad.  The main problem was the percussion at times was too soft, but that's not a big problem any for me.  And as I keep listening to it, I find I like it more and more.  I like how he handles the last movement. 

and the 14th, although it was hard for me to get into, is such a great piece :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 22, 2007, 11:10:08 AM
Maksim Dmitriyevich's is an outstanding account of the Fourteenth!

I haven't listened yet to the Jansons, though I hope to do so this week.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: tjguitar on May 22, 2007, 01:38:38 PM
I only have the 3 film CDs on Chandos.  I think it's some of his best work.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: not edward on May 22, 2007, 02:34:57 PM
It occurs to me that at present I lack the piano concertos. While they're certainly not as ambitious a work as many of DSCH's, they're definitely works I should have.

Recommendations, please?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: AnthonyAthletic on May 22, 2007, 02:38:49 PM
EMI: Alexeev/Maksymiuk for 1 & 2 and the Assault on Beautifuly Gorky  :D Outstanding.

Now can somebody confirm what I suspect that these two issues are the same but £80 price difference?  ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Drasko on May 22, 2007, 04:04:54 PM
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on May 22, 2007, 02:38:49 PM
Now can somebody confirm what I suspect that these two issues are the same but £80 price difference?  ;D

http://www.melody.su/eng/work/catalog/classic/529 (http://www.melody.su/eng/work/catalog/classic/529)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Choo Choo on May 22, 2007, 05:02:21 PM
I don't know about £80, but I paid about £50 for the set on the left and consider it one of the best purchases I ever made.  This is a "burning building" set - as in, if you wake in the middle of the night and find the building is on fire, which half-dozen sets of recordings do you try and rescue before the flames consume you.

I followed the link in Milos's post, and checked the dates & details against the booklets in my set, and they match identically.  12 quid?  Push the button?  You'd have to be insane not to.

But I'm sure you already did - hours ago, in fact.  ;D

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 22, 2007, 05:49:40 PM
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on May 22, 2007, 02:38:49 PM
Now can somebody confirm what I suspect that these two issues are the same but £80 price difference?  ;D

They are indeed the same, AA.

Identical in every way.

Initially this Borodin set appeared on EMI as a joint Melodiya/EMI product. Later Melodiya got sole possession of the tapes and reissued the set on their own - pictured on the left.

The EMI edition (on single discs) can still be found floating about the used CD market. It's scarce but offers a nice price break.


Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: AnthonyAthletic on May 22, 2007, 08:46:16 PM
Thanks Guys for your confirmation, the set duly snapped up for £13 delivered.

Happy to see the UK supplier still had 5 copies left.

ukdirectoffers part of UK Amazon  ;D

Cheers
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on May 22, 2007, 11:11:46 PM
Have just heard Mravinsky's 1938 premiere recording of Symphony 5 which is absolutely marvellous, very slow and linking the work much closer to the sound world of Symphony 4 (which I had always thought a far superior work). I strongly recommend this recording if you can find it although, of course, you have to make allowances for the sound quality.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 23, 2007, 03:43:33 AM
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on May 22, 2007, 08:46:16 PM
Thanks Guys for your confirmation, the set duly snapped up for £13 delivered.

Happy to see the UK supplier still had 5 copies left.

ukdirectoffers part of UK Amazon  ;D

Cheers

Excellent, Tony! Good on you, mate!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Drasko on May 23, 2007, 05:38:15 AM
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on May 22, 2007, 08:46:16 PM
Thanks Guys for your confirmation, the set duly snapped up for £13 delivered.

Happy to see the UK supplier still had 5 copies left.

ukdirectoffers part of UK Amazon  ;D

Cheers

Can you post a link to that. Only found this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shostakovich-Complete-Quartets-Borodin-Qt/dp/B000HXE5BK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shostakovich-Complete-Quartets-Borodin-Qt/dp/B000HXE5BK)

so either there is a multiple listing or you bought all six copies  :o
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: AnthonyAthletic on May 23, 2007, 02:25:38 PM
Quote from: Drasko on May 23, 2007, 05:38:15 AM
Can you post a link to that. Only found this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shostakovich-Complete-Quartets-Borodin-Qt/dp/B000HXE5BK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shostakovich-Complete-Quartets-Borodin-Qt/dp/B000HXE5BK)

so either there is a multiple listing or you bought all six copies  :o

All snapped up by the looks of it, there were 5 copies complete left when I placed my order (which will be with me tomorrow).  Maybe some members of the Forum jumped in on the action.   ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 24, 2007, 03:55:21 AM
When Tony speaks, the markets move!  :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Drasko on May 24, 2007, 07:31:30 AM
Ha, the offer is back (they probably just temporarily withdrew it for some reason yesterday).

And I could venture a guess that it is now down to four copies  ;)

Tony, thanks for the heads up.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maciek on May 24, 2007, 01:30:47 PM
I don't see it (anymore?) but for what it's worth the set costs 720 rubles on the Melodya site (http://shop.melody.su/item.php?id=287) and according to Google:
Quote from: Google720 Russian rubles = 14.0572641 British pounds

Maciek
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: uffeviking on May 25, 2007, 08:50:51 AM
I saw this at amazon, but never heard of the conductor Bobritskaia. It sells at $120.00 new and for $36.00 used. No information on the orchestra! It's on the Russian Label.The list of works on this disc is impressive, but before I spend 36 bucks I would like to know more about it. I have the Chailly recording of Jazz Suite No. 1.
           
http://www.amazon.com/Shostakovich-Suite-Jazz-Orchestra-No/dp/B00000JQGL/ref=sr_1_7/102-2657591-8498530?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1180110827&sr=1-7

   




 


Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 29, 2007, 04:16:17 AM
Don't cry, Greg! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1117.msg27557.html#msg27557)  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Steve on May 29, 2007, 07:04:30 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on May 25, 2007, 08:50:51 AM
I saw this at amazon, but never heard of the conductor Bobritskaia. It sells at $120.00 new and for $36.00 used. No information on the orchestra! It's on the Russian Label.The list of works on this disc is impressive, but before I spend 36 bucks I would like to know more about it. I have the Chailly recording of Jazz Suite No. 1.
           
http://www.amazon.com/Shostakovich-Suite-Jazz-Orchestra-No/dp/B00000JQGL/ref=sr_1_7/102-2657591-8498530?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1180110827&sr=1-7


I remember coming across this some time ago, and generally found it agreeable. At 36 dollars, you certainly won't be dissapointed.
  




 


Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: uffeviking on May 29, 2007, 07:59:58 PM
Intensive research showed me that Bobritskaia is a pianist! No conductor is every mentioned. Could this mean he plays the entire selection on the piano, a piano version of each piece? Very puzzling indeed, but thanks for your input!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Drasko on May 29, 2007, 08:34:46 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on May 29, 2007, 07:59:58 PM
Intensive research showed me that Bobritskaia is a pianist! No conductor is every mentioned. Could this mean he plays the entire selection on the piano, a piano version of each piece? Very puzzling indeed, but thanks for your input!

It looks exactly the same as this one:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004YU97  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004YU97)

and here is the review:

http://www.dschjournal.com/reviews/rvs12op69.htm (http://www.dschjournal.com/reviews/rvs12op69.htm)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: uffeviking on May 29, 2007, 08:52:45 PM
Thanks so much, Drasko! You cleared up the confusion because I thought those are two different editions, one with the tennis player the other with the piglets! The one with the pigs I found listed for the 120 bucks new and 36 for used. $9.28 certainly is more affordable! I lost the site where they make Bobritskai a pianist!

And all this confusion and search and effort by you, about music shunned by some as irrelevant but I see as an important aide to understanding Shostakovich.

Sincerely!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 29, 2007, 09:22:15 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on May 29, 2007, 08:52:45 PM
And all this confusion and search and effort by you, about music shunned by some as irrelevant but I see as an important aide to understanding Shostakovich.


You won't catch me slighting this music, Lis! Even though I haven't heard any of it.

I'll be all ears when and if you comment on this disc!



Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2007, 04:05:58 AM
Now I'm worried.

The Twelfth Symphony is starting to sound good.

I blame Maksim Dmitriyevich and the Prague Symphony.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DetUudslukkelige on June 25, 2007, 05:40:40 PM
For some reason, since I started collecting classical music, I have avoided Shostakovich as if he were the devil himself. For some reason, I just expected his music to be crap. I really don't know why, but I did. I think it may be because all the praise he received seemed to be celebrating things that I didn't particularly care about, and any criticism seemed to be about things that were truly important to me musically...

..Well, earlier today, I was on YouTube, and the thought struck me out of nowhere "Hey, maybe I should find a video of that Shostakovich guy everyone seems to like, see what all the fuss is about". So I did a search and clicked on Mravinsky conducting the finale of his fifth symphony. Well, if you didn't see where this story was going already, I've listened to just about every Shostakovich piece that has been posted on YouTube, and it still isn't enough. I'm already hooked, and I don't even own a single CD. Since I have no money to spend on music at present, and when I do I'll probably not be able to swing more than about sixty dollars, I think my next purchase may be the Jansons set of Shostakovich symphonies, since that's just in my price range, and I've heard good things about it around here.

There's certainly enough advice for a new Shostakovich fan around this forum, but if anyone wants to recommend a better way to spend that amount of money, don't hesitate to say so.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 25, 2007, 07:15:04 PM
Quote from: DetUudslukkelige on June 25, 2007, 05:40:40 PM
There's certainly enough advice for a new Shostakovich fan around this forum, but if anyone wants to recommend a better way to spend that amount of money, don't hesitate to say so.

The symphonies are a great place to start, make no mistake. And Jansons is a top-notch Shostakovich interpreter. Should make a perfect Shostakovich 'starter kit'.

Later, as your money situation improves, you might look into some of the fabulous individual symphony recordings out there. But for now, no doubt, a single box is the most cost-effective way to go.

Further down the road you might look into investing in a cost-effective box set of the complete string quartets. For about the same $60.00 you can have all the quartets from groups like the Borodin SQ or the Danel SQ (my personal fave).

So, good luck!

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on July 11, 2007, 08:53:37 AM
D Minor! How goes the Quest?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on July 13, 2007, 03:14:40 PM
has anyone heard of the piece Cherry Town?  I saw a DVD of it at a local store, and I never heard of it before, has anyone seen the DVD, or hear the piece? 
http://www.amazon.com/Cherry-Town-Region-Shostakovich-Cheryomushki/dp/B000OQF37K/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/002-1497723-4691234?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1184368277&sr=1-2
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: George on July 18, 2007, 06:30:49 AM
Quote from: DetUudslukkelige on June 25, 2007, 05:40:40 PM
For some reason, since I started collecting classical music, I have avoided Shostakovich as if he were the devil himself. For some reason, I just expected his music to be crap. I really don't know why, but I did. I think it may be because all the praise he received seemed to be celebrating things that I didn't particularly care about, and any criticism seemed to be about things that were truly important to me musically...

..Well, earlier today, I was on YouTube, and the thought struck me out of nowhere "Hey, maybe I should find a video of that Shostakovich guy everyone seems to like, see what all the fuss is about". So I did a search and clicked on Mravinsky conducting the finale of his fifth symphony. Well, if you didn't see where this story was going already, I've listened to just about every Shostakovich piece that has been posted on YouTube, and it still isn't enough. I'm already hooked, and I don't even own a single CD. Since I have no money to spend on music at present, and when I do I'll probably not be able to swing more than about sixty dollars, I think my next purchase may be the Jansons set of Shostakovich symphonies, since that's just in my price range, and I've heard good things about it around here.

There's certainly enough advice for a new Shostakovich fan around this forum, but if anyone wants to recommend a better way to spend that amount of money, don't hesitate to say so.

You could spend much less on the Virgin budget two-fer of the Borodin playing a number of the quartets. I think the quartets is a great place to start for this composer.  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on July 18, 2007, 06:32:32 AM
Quote from: George on July 18, 2007, 06:30:49 AM
You could spend much less on the Virgin budget two-fer of the Borodin playing a number of the quartets.

Nos. 2, 3, 7, 8 & 12, I believe.

QuoteI think the quartets is a great place to start for this composer.  :)

George is right, you know  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: George on July 18, 2007, 06:34:23 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2007, 06:32:32 AM
Nos. 2, 3, 7, 8 & 12, I believe.

George is right, you know  8)

Except in his grammar. I meant to say the quartets are a great place to start.  ::)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BachQ on July 18, 2007, 07:23:47 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2007, 08:53:37 AM
D Minor! How goes the Quest?


......... Refresh my recollection .......... What am I questing for again? ............
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on July 18, 2007, 07:46:59 AM
Quote from: D Minor on July 18, 2007, 07:23:47 AM

......... Refresh my recollection .......... What am I questing for again? ............

Shostakovich Symphony Cycles (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,576.0.html), naturally!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BachQ on July 18, 2007, 08:00:58 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2007, 07:46:59 AM
Shostakovich Symphony Cycles (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,576.0.html), naturally!

naturelement !

I have Jansons and Barshai complete sets (both of which are entirely satisfying) ........ but I haven't decided on my next set (if any) ........... I'm debating between Maxim Shostakovich's and Kiril Kondrashin's .........
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Boris_G on July 19, 2007, 10:09:41 AM
Quote from: D Minor on July 18, 2007, 08:00:58 AM
naturelement !

I have Jansons and Barshai complete sets (both of which are entirely satisfying) ........ but I haven't decided on my next set (if any) ........... I'm debating between Maxim Shostakovich's and Kiril Kondrashin's .........

No contest - Kondrashin's every time (though I believe Maxim occasionally hits the jackpot, from what I've heard from listeners I respect; I'll look up which symphonies if you're really interested, but I seem to remember it was one of the very late ones). What I've heard of Maxim's cycle - I remember No. 5 in particular - has been terribly uninspiring and drab; whereas Kondrashin makes the music dramatic and alive.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on July 19, 2007, 11:26:21 AM
Quote from: Boris_G on July 19, 2007, 10:09:41 AM
What I've heard of Maxim's cycle - I remember No. 5 in particular - has been terribly uninspiring and drab

Oh, I don't think so at all, at all.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Boris_G on July 19, 2007, 11:56:22 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 19, 2007, 11:26:21 AM
Oh, I don't think so at all, at all.

OK, let's hear your assessment of that recording. I can't offer detail myself because I haven't listened to it more than enough to convince me I could find more rewarding accounts elsewhere (back then, in the 1990s, it was Previn's Chicago SO which I enjoyed).l
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 19, 2007, 01:19:23 PM
Quote from: D Minor on July 18, 2007, 08:00:58 AM
naturelement !

I have Jansons and Barshai complete sets (both of which are entirely satisfying) ........ but I haven't decided on my next set (if any) ........... I'm debating between Maxim Shostakovich's and Kiril Kondrashin's .........

Add Rostropovich to the debate........

Hey! ..........'s are fun to make!

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Valentino on July 19, 2007, 02:18:01 PM
The other day I heard on the radio Leif Ove Andsnes play a hilarious polka by our man, but what more I dont know. Enlighten me please.

(It's good to be back in the virtual world, btw. We had a thunderstorm zapping our DSL just befor we went on holiday, and the new stuff arrived today.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on July 20, 2007, 02:43:19 PM
For Boris, wherever he may be . . . .

Quote from: Boris_G on July 19, 2007, 11:56:22 AM
(back then, in the 1990s, it was Previn's Chicago SO which I enjoyed)

That's a very enjoyable one.  Listening to it now.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on August 15, 2007, 06:24:40 AM
TTT
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on August 21, 2007, 05:44:52 PM
i got yet another account of the 14th.  Rattle with the BPO with Karita Mattila as the Soprano and Thomas Quasthoff as the bass. 

they all do a pretty good, I thing. The sound is clear as well.  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Valentino on August 23, 2007, 05:05:40 AM
Quote from: Valentino on July 19, 2007, 02:18:01 PM
The other day I heard on the radio Leif Ove Andsnes play a hilarious polka by our man, but what more I dont know.

Found out. It's a polka from the ballet "L'age d'or". It's on his "Horizons" album, which in general is not my thing at all. Too much konfekt.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Cato on September 13, 2007, 06:40:42 PM
The Thirteenth Symphony "Babi Yar" by Shostakovich is what graced my stereo system last night.

I have not heard the entire work in years, and was struck by a few things.  Commentators back in the '70's remarked upon its Mahlerian aspects, e.g. the juxtaposition of the sacred and the profane.

What struck me last night was the work's great affinity with...Rachmaninov!      :o

The first, third, and fifth movements especially evoked the atmosphere of The Rach's choral symphony The Bells along with other works, like the 3 Russian Folksongs and the cantata Spring.  To be sure, you can also occasionally hear Prokofiev's ghost fiddling around now and then, e.g. in the second movement. 

The ideational parallels between the Poe/Balmont texts for The Bells and the Yevtushenko poems are not obvious at first perhaps, but the Shostakovich music helps to build a bridge between the two eras.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 14, 2007, 04:03:51 AM
Very interesting, Cato!

And that second movement, "Humor," is cousin to one of the Opus 62 Romances in verse by Burns, Raleigh & Shakespeare, originally composed in 1942 (hence, while Prokofiev yet abode).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Cato on September 14, 2007, 06:01:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 14, 2007, 04:03:51 AM
Very interesting, Cato!

And that second movement, "Humor," is cousin to one of the Opus 62 Romances in verse by Burns, Raleigh & Shakespeare, originally composed in 1942 (hence, while Prokofiev yet abode).

Aha!  That detail was not in the liner notes: the performance was by Maris Janssons and the Bavarian Radio Orchestra.  Very nicely done, I thought.

There was always a kind of anticipatory excitement back in the 50's, '60's, and '70's among classical music people, specifically because of Shostakovich and what he might bring forth in the next year.  This work particularly created many "great expectations" about the future and what Shostakovich might bring us.

Interesting that Stravinsky (as I recall at least) was not generating the same kind of excitement, probably because of the dodecaphonic nature of the later works: I recall critics fussing especially about The Flood as unnecessarily complex.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 14, 2007, 06:22:51 AM
The Flood was a curious innovation ('an opera for TV' sort of angle) and I had an idea that much of the problem, for instance, was the station-breaks :-)

But maybe some find it too complex . . . after a couple of Carter or Wuorinen listening jags, though, I find it hard to lose patience with late Stravinsky on the basis of complexity  ;)
Title: The 16th Quartet!!
Post by: Varg on September 18, 2007, 01:52:12 PM
I saw this on youtube. It's amazing; sounds like the soundtrack of a madman's mind, absolutely grim.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iAKLKokYDso

The sound is weak. Listen with headphones.
Title: Re: The 16th Quartet!!
Post by: The Emperor on September 18, 2007, 07:25:53 PM
Quote from: Shunk_Manitu_Tanka on September 18, 2007, 01:52:12 PM
I saw this on youtube. It's amazing; sounds like the soundtrack of a madman's mind, absolutely grim.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iAKLKokYDso

The sound is weak. Listen with headphones.


Haven't heard this before, it's so Shosty, love it, so dark, loveeeee it!
Title: Re: The 16th Quartet!!
Post by: Varg on September 19, 2007, 12:22:02 AM
Quote from: The Emperor on September 18, 2007, 07:25:53 PM
Haven't heard this before, it's so Shosty, love it, so dark, loveeeee it!

Yeah!

I should've said, for those who doesn't know, that the 15th is his last complete Quartet score. The 16th score was incomplete (Schnittke "completed" it!!), so it's not entirely Shostakovich. But, as you said, it's still very Shosty!

Here (from the youtube link):

"This quartet is a new discovery by the Bordars quartet. Sadly, the manuscript was destroyed at the Zhislin studios shortly after the premiere. (Well, just a copy actually - see below for details).

*Due to numerous questions about this quartet that we have received since the upload, here is a quick blurb.
(I have talked to Irina Antonovna (Sh) and she elaborated on some of the details.)

This quartet is, of course, not "the last piece" Shostakovich wrote. (And it is not "completely" by Shostakovich). Actually, Shostakovich wrote about "a half" of what you hear here in the early 60s (around the time of 7th and 8th quartet composition). The manuscript sketch of this movement was in pencil and the pages were filed in a type of folder Sh. usually used for his official documents.
Shortly after this sketch was written, Shostakovich was actually supposed to meet with Schnittke (read Ivashkin, for details on that meeting). However, that day Schnittke was detained by militia (soviet police) and was late for the meeting. Sh. was angry (because he valued his time greatly) and did not spend much time with Sch. on that visit (the two never met again). He simply handed over the official papers (I forgot which, and why Sch needed them) over to Schnittke and excused himself.
This is where it gets interesting. When Schnittke came home he found that in that folder below the papers was a sketch for the quartet.
The exact details of what happened after are not known, but according to Irina Schnittke, her husband once showed her his "movement" for string quartet "to the memory of D.Shostakovich" in the early 90s. Then, in late 2002, when Irina Schnittke was going through the composer's archive in Hamburg, she suddenly happened upon the sketch (still in the official folder) from Shostakovich. She then examined the "movement" that Alfred showed her and found striking similarity. In fact, the sketch was incomplete, but had the basic "shostakovich" narrative laid out (with a lot of motivic development as heard in this performance - consider for instance the climax around 1:50). Schnittke must have filled it in with his own material and put it aside after this completion. (This movement was never listed among Schnittke's official works). Irina Schnittke, who by that time became very well acquainted with the viola player from Bordars, decided to have this movement be given an "unofficial" premiere in London. Of course, the problem is that due to this "problem of authorship", Irina Shostakovich and Irina Schnittke are currently in dispute over who the original manuscript belongs should belong to. I'll update once I know more about this matter from private sources.

Therefore, to answer one question, I don't believe we will be hearing a "no.17" at any point :)"
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Varg on September 19, 2007, 01:54:36 AM
I've listened to this close to a hundred times since i discovered it tree days ago. This is mind-blowing, a masterpiece from introduction to closing; each single part of that short monster is ridiculously good, and so well played! A work of genius in my book.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: The Emperor on September 19, 2007, 09:50:31 AM
Is there any cd with a recording of this movement?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Varg on September 19, 2007, 01:40:31 PM
Quote from: The Emperor on September 19, 2007, 09:50:31 AM
Is there any cd with a recording of this movement?

Im affraid we'll have to wait a bit before it happens.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BachQ on September 24, 2007, 12:48:45 PM
From one Dmitri to another, please let me wish you happy birthday!

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Dmitri1.jpg/393px-Dmitri1.jpg)

Dmitri Shostakovich (born Sept. 25, 1906).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 24, 2007, 12:50:22 PM
Oh, tomorrow will have to be an all-Mitya-all-the-time listening queue!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BachQ on September 24, 2007, 12:51:59 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 24, 2007, 12:50:22 PM
Oh, tomorrow will have to be an all-Mitya-all-the-time listening queue!

Actually, in Moscow, it became tomorrow 51 minutes ago .......
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 24, 2007, 02:30:15 PM
да
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: The Emperor on September 24, 2007, 02:40:51 PM
The string quartets are already in the playlist 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 24, 2007, 02:48:46 PM
Очень хорошо!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: The Emperor on September 27, 2007, 07:28:06 AM
Check out this cool cover of Shosty's 10th symphony second movement.
I always said Shostakovich is METAL! ahah

http://www.mediafire.com/?13nsm2j4nlp

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on November 30, 2007, 05:34:06 AM
TTT
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on February 17, 2008, 04:53:06 AM
The BSO played the Fourth last night, only the second time ever that they have played the piece.  Very fine performance.

More Later.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Guido on February 17, 2008, 05:11:14 AM
Fantastic piece this new string quartet... They say that the manuscript was destroyed but presumably they can still publish as they have the separate parts. Exciting stuff.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on February 18, 2008, 06:30:25 AM
New string quartet, Guido?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: greg on February 18, 2008, 06:49:52 AM
Quote from: Guido on February 17, 2008, 05:11:14 AM
Fantastic piece this new string quartet... They say that the manuscript was destroyed but presumably they can still publish as they have the separate parts. Exciting stuff.
yeah, what are you talking about?

it's not April Fool's day yet, btw....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sef on February 19, 2008, 10:23:02 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2008, 04:53:06 AM
The BSO played the Fourth last night, only the second time ever that they have played the piece.  Very fine performance.

The Fourth is absolutely my favourite. I saw it a couple of years ago with Mark Elder conducting the CSO together with Elgar's Cello Concerto (which was why I was attending in the first place). I think I can safely say that it was one of the most enjoyable concerts I have ever attended. I shall be going again in May to see Haitink conduct the same piece! I have the ticket magnetized to my fridge to remind myself every time I get peckish.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Drasko on March 15, 2008, 10:08:36 AM
Does anyone around here have Rozhdestvensky's recording of Babi Yar?
I'm looking for certain bit of info about it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: rubio on March 15, 2008, 12:20:49 PM
Quote from: Drasko on March 15, 2008, 10:08:36 AM
Does anyone around here have Rozhdestvensky's recording of Babi Yar?
I'm looking for certain bit of info about it.

Yep, I have this cycle. What info do you want?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: greg on March 16, 2008, 05:20:13 AM
Quote from: Drasko on March 15, 2008, 10:08:36 AM
Does anyone around here have Rozhdestvensky's recording of Babi Yar?
I'm looking for certain bit of info about it.
me too....... but what would you like to know?  ???
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Drasko on March 16, 2008, 09:40:22 AM
What I wanted to know is which version of text for the title poem Rozhdestvensky used. The story goes like this, I believe. Right after the premiere in 1962 large party fuss started and Yevtushenko was pressured to alter some of the lyrics into something more soviet friendly. He did so and this revised version was recorded by Kondrashin few days later. Revised version was also used in Kondrashin's studio recording five years later in 1967. Rozhdestvensky's recording is, I think, the only other made during soviet period and I'm curious whether he also had to use the revised version or some twenty years later (when exactly was his recording made, 80s?) nobody give a damn anymore and he could return to the original text.

Don't know if liner notes for Rozhdestvensky's recording mention any of this, or have texts, so here I've attached word file with English text and Russian transliteration of the original version. I've bolded the two verses that got altered afterwards (the first and the penultimate verse for the soloist in the first, title poem) so it shouldn't be too difficult to figure out if Rozhdestvensky's soloist is singing this or something else.

I have no text or translation of the revised version and my Russian is too rusty to attempt accurate translation myself, but I've made clips of those two verses from Gromadsky/Kondrashin recording, so if anyone whose Russian is better than mine wants to try here it is:

first verse:
http://www.mediafire.com/?mnzdojvydbr
penultimate verse: 
http://www.mediafire.com/?mkwm4nzjib1
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: rubio on March 26, 2008, 08:03:55 AM
Quote from: Drasko on March 16, 2008, 09:40:22 AM
I've bolded the two verses that got altered afterwards (the first and the penultimate verse for the soloist in the first, title poem) so it shouldn't be too difficult to figure out if Rozhdestvensky's soloist is singing this or something else.

I'm sorry I have not responded earlier, but I have neither had access to a stable internet connection nor the CD during my Easter vacation. I listen to the CD at the moment, and I can confirm that Rozhdestvensky uses the original version of the text. It was easy to hear, as they phrase the words clearly. Insresting story BTW!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: johnQpublic on March 26, 2008, 08:49:37 AM
Quote from: The Emperor on September 27, 2007, 07:28:06 AM
Check out this cool cover of Shosty's 10th symphony second movement.
I always said Shostakovich is METAL! ahah

http://www.mediafire.com/?13nsm2j4nlp



That was a fascinating listen. It took a lot of talent & technique to pull it off. Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Drasko on March 26, 2008, 08:58:53 AM
Quote from: rubio on March 26, 2008, 08:03:55 AM
I'm sorry I have not responded earlier, but I have neither had access to a stable internet connection nor the CD during my Easter vacation. I listen to the CD at the moment, and I can confirm that Rozhdestvensky uses the original version of the text. It was easy to hear, as they phrase the words clearly. Insresting story BTW!

Many thanks!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 30, 2008, 01:50:13 PM
Terrific new CD of Symphony 4: Staatskapelle Dresden, Kondrashin, German Premiere 1963 (midprice Profil label). This in my favourite Shostakovich symphony and I must have heard nearly all available CDs. This one is my favourite now. It is the most manically intense of the lot (even better I think than Konrashin's wonderful melodiya recording).  Furthermore, the booket is crammed full of fascinating photos of Shostakovich: A great release.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: O Delvig on April 02, 2008, 02:28:05 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 30, 2008, 01:50:13 PM
Terrific new CD of Symphony 4: Staatskapelle Dresden, Kondrashin, German Premiere 1963 (midprice Profil label). This in my favourite Shostakovich symphony and I must have heard nearly all available CDs. This one is my favourite now. It is the most manically intense of the lot (even better I think than Konrashin's wonderful melodiya recording).  Furthermore, the booket is crammed full of fascinating photos of Shostakovich: A great release.

Out of curiousity, have you heard Rozhdestvensky? I've heard interesting things about his Shostakovich, but his cycle seems to be out of print. I have a recording of the first Cello Concerto he did with Rostropovich and it's fantastic.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on April 05, 2008, 09:37:03 AM
Quote from: spaghetti on April 02, 2008, 02:28:05 PM
Out of curiousity, have you heard Rozhdestvensky? I've heard interesting things about his Shostakovich, but his cycle seems to be out of print. I have a recording of the first Cello Concerto he did with Rostropovich and it's fantastic.

Sorry for delay in replying.  Yes, I have Rozhdestvensky on an old Olympia CD in Symphony 4. It is very good but I prefer the Dresden Kondrashin, which is more appropiately manic and hard-driven, ending in the deepest gloom.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Catison on April 05, 2008, 09:56:25 AM
I just went for a very long run (it is finally 60 degrees in Wisconsin!!) and listened to the 4th Symphony.  Oh wow.  That is all I can say.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Varg on April 05, 2008, 02:57:24 PM
Something weird happened today.

I decided to play a Shostakovich symphony. It pissed me off so much that i'm still angry. It was the first time that i reacted this way to music.

I dont know how is that, or, rather, how to explain it (i use to like this music). I felt it was (the music) exagerated and unconvincing, like a clown who's doing all he can to be funny in vain, except here we're talking about a man who tries to convince a feeling of tragedy.

Words fail me. All i can say is that i'll never listen to Shostakovich again; i am that much disgusted.




Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: George on April 05, 2008, 03:17:13 PM
Quote from: spaghetti on April 02, 2008, 02:28:05 PM
Out of curiousity, have you heard Rozhdestvensky? I've heard interesting things about his Shostakovich, but his cycle seems to be out of print. I have a recording of the first Cello Concerto he did with Rostropovich and it's fantastic.

Yeah, his DSCH is definitely worth seeking out.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: O Delvig on April 05, 2008, 06:57:59 PM
Quote from: Varg on April 05, 2008, 02:57:24 PM
Something weird happened today.

I decided to play a Shostakovich symphony. It pissed me off so much that i'm still angry. It was the first time that i reacted this way to music.

I dont know how is that, or, rather, how to explain it (i use to like this music). I felt it was (the music) exagerated and unconvincing, like a clown who's doing all he can to be funny in vain, except here we're talking about a man who tries to convince a feeling of tragedy.

Words fail me. All i can say is that i'll never listen to Shostakovich again; i am that much disgusted.


Judging by your avatar, I'd assume you like Pettersson? But not Shostakovich?  ??? ???

Maybe try the string quartets, if you like that genre. Either way, it's good that you at least had a strong reaction to his music. It took me a long time to appreciate his symphonies, and I'm just getting into them now. Some I find a little too programmatic, but perhaps I'll learn to enjoy them. Right now my favorites are 4,8,13 and 14 (Kondrashin set).

BTW, which symphony did you listen to?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on April 05, 2008, 07:02:26 PM
Did Paulb change his name to Varg? ???
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Varg on April 05, 2008, 08:13:49 PM
Quote from: spaghetti on April 05, 2008, 06:57:59 PM
Judging by your avatar, I'd assume you like Pettersson? But not Shostakovich?  ??? ???

Maybe try the string quartets, if you like that genre. Either way, it's good that you at least had a strong reaction to his music. It took me a long time to appreciate his symphonies, and I'm just getting into them now. Some I find a little too programmatic, but perhaps I'll learn to enjoy them. Right now my favorites are 4,8,13 and 14 (Kondrashin set).

BTW, which symphony did you listen to?

It was the 8th.

No, i'm really done with Shostakovich.

I know his SQs, trios and sonatas pretty well, but... i dont know, i guess his sound world doesn't speak to me at all anymore.

Yes, Pettersson is my favorite composer. They are very different from each other, if we put aside the fact that they both have a dark feel (even if Shostakovich's music sounds like a fairytale compare to Pettersson's!  0:)

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Varg on April 05, 2008, 08:14:58 PM
Quote from: DavidW on April 05, 2008, 07:02:26 PM
Did Paulb change his name to Varg? ???

No, i just happen to be another Pettersson junkie.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on April 05, 2008, 11:52:20 PM
Quote from: Varg on April 05, 2008, 02:57:24 PM
Something weird happened today.

I decided to play a Shostakovich symphony. It pissed me off so much that i'm still angry. It was the first time that i reacted this way to music.

I dont know how is that, or, rather, how to explain it (i use to like this music). I felt it was (the music) exagerated and unconvincing, like a clown who's doing all he can to be funny in vain, except here we're talking about a man who tries to convince a feeling of tragedy.

Words fail me. All i can say is that i'll never listen to Shostakovich again; i am that much disgusted.


I can understand this in regard to Symphony 8. Personally I like this symphony but the three big climaxes in the last movement always sounded rather forced. However, I feel that symphonies 4,10 and 15 are absolutely authentic in their feeling. I love the music of Pettersson too (especially Violin Concerto No 2..one of the greatest works ever and symphonies 6-8).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Grazioso on April 06, 2008, 03:30:33 AM
Quote from: Varg on April 05, 2008, 02:57:24 PM
Something weird happened today.

I decided to play a Shostakovich symphony. It pissed me off so much that i'm still angry. It was the first time that i reacted this way to music.

I dont know how is that, or, rather, how to explain it (i use to like this music). I felt it was (the music) exagerated and unconvincing, like a clown who's doing all he can to be funny in vain, except here we're talking about a man who tries to convince a feeling of tragedy.

Words fail me. All i can say is that i'll never listen to Shostakovich again; i am that much disgusted.



I can sort of understand this reaction. I never quite know whether to love DSCH or to be exasperated by him. All of his "angry circus music," as I call his supposedly "ironic" or satirical bits, can grate when you just want an honest, straightforward expression of emotion--which he's fully capable of. It's like someone cracking a joke right after they say something personally revealing or emotionally direct in order to cover it up. (In this regard, I so far find Pettersson superior: he sounds utterly open, direct, honest, and intense.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pierre on April 06, 2008, 03:42:24 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on April 06, 2008, 03:30:33 AM
I can sort of understand this reaction. I never quite know whether to love DSCH or to be exasperated by him. All of his "angry circus music," as I call his supposedly "ironic" or satirical bits, can grate when you just want an honest, straightforward expression of emotion--which he's fully capable of. It's like someone cracking a joke right after they say something personally revealing or emotionally direct in order to cover it up. (In this regard, I so far find Pettersson superior: he sounds utterly open, direct, honest, and intense.)

To that extent, perhaps Shostakovich is a fair reflection of what passed for intelligent expression in Stalinist Russia (which largely formed him, for better or worse); it was usually dangerous to say anything unambiguous in a world where one party line was quickly replaced by another year after year, sometimes in a matter of months. In a world where official 'truth' was as sturdy as a sandcastle, one could only signal ones true feelings while at the same time wearing a mask of some kind. Shostakovich often parroted current official slogans in his letters to close friends as if to signal, at the very least, 'that's the way we're supposed to behave', so underlining its falsity. I think in the same way Shostakovich had to assume certain grimaces - of triumph, 'optimism', what have you - because it was expected of him. To have expressed unambiguous emotion - except in the brief window provided by the German invasion of Russia - could be in effect signing your own death certificate. To expect him to express himself as freely as the Swedish Pettersson is plainly absurd.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on April 06, 2008, 05:40:28 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on April 06, 2008, 03:30:33 AM
I can sort of understand this reaction. I never quite know whether to love DSCH or to be exasperated by him. All of his "angry circus music," as I call his supposedly "ironic" or satirical bits, can grate when you just want an honest, straightforward expression of emotion--which he's fully capable of. It's like someone cracking a joke right after they say something personally revealing or emotionally direct in order to cover it up. (In this regard, I so far find Pettersson superior: he sounds utterly open, direct, honest, and intense.)

What a load of crap!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: The new erato on April 06, 2008, 05:49:39 AM
I love some of Pettersons symphonies, but what relief if he occasionally found room for a little irony after he openly, directly and honestly have been puching home the same point over and over and over again for 50 minutes................
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on April 06, 2008, 06:15:35 AM
Anyone is entitled not to like the piece for whatever reason or bouquet of reasons, of course.

But I like the Eighth Symphony a great deal.  Especially the evolving instrumentation of the motto theme in the first movement;  both the scherzi (and I love how he puts the trombones through their paces with those rapid arpeggios);  the exquisitely colored passacaglia;  and just plain everything about the last movement . . . the insouciant bassoon solo which exposes the first theme;  the retransition to a blistering restatement of the motto theme from the first movement;  the 'ghostly' quiet of the coda (which is a wonderful 'inversion' of the close of the Fourth Symphony.

Varg, it is a pity you that decided to couch your inability to like the Eighth in terms of the supposed superiority of Pettersson, whose work I do not find at all either as characterful, or as consistently well made as Shostakovich's.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: O Delvig on April 06, 2008, 06:31:47 AM
If you're looking for straightforward emotional expression, it's understandable that Pettersson would appeal more. There's little chance of misinterpreting a Pettersson symphony. I find Shostakovich much more ambiguous and challenging, with plenty of room in his works for humor, wit, and (God Forbid!) lightheartedness, alongside all the gloom and intensity.

I love Pettersson too, but sometimes I just want to yell, "For God sakes man, life isn't that bad! You didn't even live under Stalin!"
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: The new erato on April 06, 2008, 06:53:16 AM
Quote from: spaghetti on April 06, 2008, 06:31:47 AM
If you're looking for straightforward emotional expression, it's understandable that Pettersson would appeal more. There's little chance of misinterpreting a Pettersson symphony. I find Shostakovich much more ambiguous and challenging, with plenty of room in his works for humor, wit, and (God Forbid!) lightheartedness, alongside all the gloom and intensity.

I love Pettersson too, but sometimes I just want to yell, "For God sakes man, life isn't that bad! You didn't even live under Stalin!"

Extremely well put.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Bonehelm on April 06, 2008, 08:25:10 AM
Quote from: spaghetti on April 06, 2008, 06:31:47 AM
If you're looking for straightforward emotional expression, it's understandable that Pettersson would appeal more. There's little chance of misinterpreting a Pettersson symphony. I find Shostakovich much more ambiguous and challenging, with plenty of room in his works for humor, wit, and (God Forbid!) lightheartedness, alongside all the gloom and intensity.

I love Pettersson too, but sometimes I just want to yell, "For God sakes man, life isn't that bad! You didn't even live under Stalin!"


And where would Mahler fit into those two composers?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: O Delvig on April 06, 2008, 09:28:59 AM
Quote from: Perfect FIFTH on April 06, 2008, 08:25:10 AM
And where would Mahler fit into those two composers?

Well, he clearly had influence on both of them. I can't comment much on Mahler because I don't listen to his music very often, since it's really not my cup of tea. For me, what his music lacks is any sense of inevitability. His works are just too broad! But that's another discussion, and this is a Shostakovich thread.

It's worth mentioning that of the three, only Shostakovich made any significant contribution to non-orchestral music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Varg on April 06, 2008, 11:59:47 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 06, 2008, 06:15:35 AM
Anyone is entitled not to like the piece for whatever reason or bouquet of reasons, of course.

But I like the Eighth Symphony a great deal.  Especially the evolving instrumentation of the motto theme in the first movement;  both the scherzi (and I love how he puts the trombones through their paces with those rapid arpeggios);  the exquisitely colored passacaglia;  and just plain everything about the last movement . . . the insouciant bassoon solo which exposes the first theme;  the retransition to a blistering restatement of the motto theme from the first movement;  the 'ghostly' quiet of the coda (which is a wonderful 'inversion' of the close of the Fourth Symphony.

Varg, it is a pity you that decided to couch your inability to like the Eighth in terms of the supposed superiority of Pettersson, whose work I do not find at all either as characterful, or as consistently well made as Shostakovich's.

I agree Karl; there are great, great moments in Shostakovich. The problem is that they are only moments. I need music that flows perfectly, even if it's just one movement of a symphony, and i cant find this in Shostakovich, contrary to my favorite composers; with the likes of Brahms, Bruckner, Chopin, Shumann, Mahler, Tchaikovsky, Pettersson, Wagner and Williams, just to name a few, what do i care for this! He just cant take me away. And i dont mean he's a bad composer at all, i only mean that he's not my cup of tea, and i'm glad i realised it.

By the way, i already got rid of most of my Shostakovich recordings. His 5th, 8th, 11th (Rostropovich/LSO) and 10th (Karajan) still needs a new home. The first who shows interest will have them freely (postage will be too costly if i send them seperately).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on April 06, 2008, 03:26:31 PM
Quote from: Varg on April 06, 2008, 11:59:47 AM
I agree Karl; there are great, great moments in Shostakovich. The problem is that they are only moments.

You are mistaken if you think we are in agreement here, Varg.  Although I immediately thought of "moments" (since there was little point in writing a 2,000-word post which specifies what I admire in each and every measure), Shostakovich's Eighth works in toto.  I am sorry you don't get the piece, and I am puzzled that you prefer Pettersson;  but please, don't try to 'convince' me that Shostakovich is only a composer of "moments."  That is a question of your attention/perception, and not any question of "flaws" in the Shostakovich Opus 65.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Danny on April 06, 2008, 04:03:08 PM
I love just about all the symphonies--even the Second, Third and Twelfth (the finale is a special favorite).  For some reason the Fourtheenth eludes me, and for right now that's fine with me.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Varg on April 06, 2008, 04:12:37 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 06, 2008, 03:26:31 PM
You are mistaken if you think we are in agreement here, Varg.  Although I immediately thought of "moments" (since there was little point in writing a 2,000-word post which specifies what I admire in each and every measure), Shostakovich's Eighth works in toto.  I am sorry you don't get the piece, and I am puzzled that you prefer Pettersson;  but please, don't try to 'convince' me that Shostakovich is only a composer of "moments."  That is a question of your attention/perception, and not any question of "flaws" in the Shostakovich Opus 65.

No, that's a question of taste. It only has great moments, to me. I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

I never talked about flaws; it has nothing to do with him, it's all about me.

And the fact that i dont like a composer doesn't mean it's because i dont get it.

It is not not a technical issue i have with Shostakovich, it is an emotional one. For instance, he would get really close of giving me great pleasure, but then he would screw it up buy throwing in there something that is totally unecessary or by "going elsewhere". He really is a teaser; he promess me great things, and then he takes them away from me. His music just goes against my nature, i guess; my whole being protest against it, and my mind is far from being my biggest/only "judgement factor".

Well, there's not much to say, really; i dont get your love for Shostakovich and you dont get my love for Pettersson, and i wont blame you for that, or tell you, in a condescending tone, that i'm sorry you dont get it. To each his own.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: O Delvig on April 06, 2008, 06:24:51 PM
Quote from: Danny on April 06, 2008, 04:03:08 PM
I love just about all the symphonies--even the Second, Third and Twelfth (the finale is a special favorite).  For some reason the Fourtheenth eludes me, and for right now that's fine with me.

The fourteenth is worth pursuing. In fact, I just changed my name in honor of it!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Grazioso on April 06, 2008, 06:58:58 PM
Quote from: Pierre on April 06, 2008, 03:42:24 AM
To that extent, perhaps Shostakovich is a fair reflection of what passed for intelligent expression in Stalinist Russia (which largely formed him, for better or worse); it was usually dangerous to say anything unambiguous in a world where one party line was quickly replaced by another year after year, sometimes in a matter of months. In a world where official 'truth' was as sturdy as a sandcastle, one could only signal ones true feelings while at the same time wearing a mask of some kind. Shostakovich often parroted current official slogans in his letters to close friends as if to signal, at the very least, 'that's the way we're supposed to behave', so underlining its falsity. I think in the same way Shostakovich had to assume certain grimaces - of triumph, 'optimism', what have you - because it was expected of him. To have expressed unambiguous emotion - except in the brief window provided by the German invasion of Russia - could be in effect signing your own death certificate. To expect him to express himself as freely as the Swedish Pettersson is plainly absurd.

I wonder how his "comrade composers" compare in that regard. I've just started exploring Miaskovsky, and the few works I've heard so far seem rather unambiguous (in the positive sense) in their emotional content/appeal.

Quote from: O Delvig on April 06, 2008, 06:31:47 AM
If you're looking for straightforward emotional expression, it's understandable that Pettersson would appeal more. There's little chance of misinterpreting a Pettersson symphony. I find Shostakovich much more ambiguous and challenging, with plenty of room in his works for humor, wit, and (God Forbid!) lightheartedness, alongside all the gloom and intensity.

I love Pettersson too, but sometimes I just want to yell, "For God sakes man, life isn't that bad! You didn't even live under Stalin!"


Until you've walked in another man's shoes... But regardless of that, I actually have found Pettersson more challenging, based on the five symphonies I've heard so far, in terms of either engaging fully with such emotionally exhausting works or following the densely intertwined musical strands in some of them. (DSCH's symphonic textures can seem relatively Spartan, which I actually find an interesting and welcome contrast to more than a few 20th-century symphonies!)

As for humor and wit and high spirits, I there turn to composers like Haydn or Mozart, but any humor and lightheartedness I hear in Shostakovich can come across not necessarily as forced--to go back to Varg's earlier post--but as an ugly sort of humor or levity designed to mask, mock, or subvert.



Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 06, 2008, 07:01:15 PM
Quote from: O Delvig on April 06, 2008, 06:24:51 PM
The fourteenth is worth pursuing. In fact, I just changed my name in honor of it!

I had the same thought. I mean, about the symphony, that is!

Congrats on your new name! ;D



Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2008, 03:33:57 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on April 06, 2008, 06:58:58 PM
(DSCH's symphonic textures can seem relatively Spartan, which I actually find an interesting and welcome contrast to more than a few 20th-century symphonies!)

Yes, I really like the range of textures, from busy kitchen-sink-ness, to just two instruments with no place to hide.

Which I find one thing (of a number of things) to relish in the symphonies, which cannot possibly be a part of the quartets.

QuoteAs for humor and wit and high spirits, I there turn to composers like Haydn or Mozart, but any humor and lightheartedness I hear in Shostakovich can come across not necessarily as forced--to go back to Varg's earlier post--but as an ugly sort of humor or levity designed to mask, mock, or subvert.

From an early age, a penchant for the 'grotesque', indeed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: greg on April 08, 2008, 03:47:40 PM
Quote from: Varg on April 06, 2008, 04:12:37 PM
It is not not a technical issue i have with Shostakovich, it is an emotional one. For instance, he would get really close of giving me great pleasure, but then he would screw it up buy throwing in there something that is totally unecessary or by "going elsewhere". He really is a teaser; he promess me great things, and then he takes them away from me. His music just goes against my nature, i guess; my whole being protest against it, and my mind is far from being my biggest/only "judgement factor".
This is something that I've actually noticed a bit, too.... it feels like he's about to going into something very deep and profound and then he just changes direction completely, which maybe some chromatic woodwinds or something.

But...... I wanted to add here, lately I've been listening to the 4th and 5th symphonies. The 5th once, and I'm starting to like it. Doesn't have the best ideas, but the form is nice and he develops stuff nicely- it's just well written. The 4th is the opposite (listened to it two days in a row)- it instead has the most amazing ideas, but the form is just all over the place, almost as much as, say, Schnittke's 1st (though not quite that far). Even though it's all over the place, and there's moments where i want to hear him write something "deeper" but he's goes somewhere else, it doesn't really ruin my enjoyment.

My favorite part of the symphony I've been playing back for a few days now and whenever I think about it, it actually makes me smile (and I rarely smile, or at least that's about what everyone says).
The music doesn't remind me of anything particularly or bring images straight to mind like some of my other favorite music, but it's definitely worthy of relating some type of concept to it. I'll try to post it in a minute.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: greg on April 08, 2008, 04:08:38 PM
Isn't this clip just freaking awesome?!

[mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/14/1346899/sym4%20clip.mp3[/mp3]

This is Rozhdestvensky's recording, I love how the string have some kind of echo, makes it sound even bigger. Then the strings eventually play his signature gallop, while the brass comes in, and it ends up in, i guess explosions!

This is truly falling in love for me..... 0:)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Bonehelm on April 08, 2008, 06:57:10 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on April 08, 2008, 04:08:38 PM
Isn't this clip just freaking awesome?!

[mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/14/1346899/sym4%20clip.mp3[/mp3]

This is Rozhdestvensky's recording, I love how the string have some kind of echo, makes it sound even bigger. Then the strings eventually play his signature gallop, while the brass comes in, and it ends up in, i guess explosions!

This is truly falling in love for me..... 0:)
Greg which symphony is that? This is what I"m talking about...Shosty is so chaotic to me I don't get his style of expression. Mahler on the other hand seems controlled and logical, even when it is full-blown by a 150 piece orchestra with a 80-stop organ blasting triple fortissimo over it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on April 09, 2008, 12:42:52 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on April 06, 2008, 06:58:58 PM
I wonder how his "comrade composers" compare in that regard. I've just started exploring Miaskovsky, and the few works I've heard so far seem rather unambiguous (in the positive sense) in their emotional content/appeal.

I think that there is ambiguity in Miaskovsky's music. I have been listening to Symphony 17 recently, written in 1937 during the Stalinist purges. In this, and other works, I think that Miaskovsky tries to conform to the demands of Socialist Realism (as was expected of creative artists) whilst remaining true to himself. Miaskovsky was apparently a shy and introspective man who had witnessed the murder of his father (a General in the Tsar's army) during the revolutionary period. I very much doubt that he was an enthusiastic supporter of the regime and this paradox does, I feel, come out in some of his music, which gives it an added poignancy (symphonies 6 and 27 also come to mind in this respect).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on April 09, 2008, 03:44:19 AM
Quote from: Perfect FIFTH on April 08, 2008, 06:57:10 PM
Greg which symphony is that? This is what I'm talking about...Shosty is so chaotic to me I don't get his style of expression.

To keep myself solely to your initial question:  this is the string fugato in the middle of the first movement of the Fourth Symphony.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: greg on April 09, 2008, 06:59:12 AM
Quote from: Perfect FIFTH on April 08, 2008, 06:57:10 PM
Shosty is so chaotic to me I don't get his style of expression.
Well, at least for me, it developed a lot just by listening again and again. Certain things become familiar and when you hear them again, it just becomes more and more likeable..... such as the galloping rhythms, the DSCH (D Eb C B) motive, etc. Then again, you just might not have the capacity to enjoy heavily dissonant music, or haven't developed the taste yet.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on April 09, 2008, 08:43:42 AM
And to be sure, Greg, the entire Fourth Symphony is (probably a reasonably apt use of this much-abused adjective) awesome.  I could not vouch for its freaking, at all.

Perfect FIFTH, I will say that the first couple of times I listened to the Fourth Symphony, I didn't "get" it.  After a long interval, I went back to it, and now about half the time it is my favorite Shostakovich symphony, and well up in my Top Ten Symphonies of All Time.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: springrite on April 09, 2008, 08:49:00 AM
This thread has reminded me to listen to Shostakovich again, and I have not listened to a single note from him since 2002. Lots of CDs, but for some reason I have been listening to others.

First up, symphony #14.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: greg on April 09, 2008, 08:54:37 AM
Quote from: springrite on April 09, 2008, 08:49:00 AM
This thread has reminded me to listen to Shostakovich again, and I have not listened to a single note from him since 2002. Lots of CDs, but for some reason I have been listening to others.

First up, symphony #14.
2002?  :o
That's way too long, man!
You picked a good one to start again with  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Bonehelm on April 09, 2008, 10:47:45 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 09, 2008, 08:43:42 AM
And to be sure, Greg, the entire Fourth Symphony is (probably a reasonably apt use of this much-abused adjective) awesome.  I could not vouch for its freaking, at all.

Perfect FIFTH, I will say that the first couple of times I listened to the Fourth Symphony, I didn't "get" it.  After a long interval, I went back to it, and now about half the time it is my favorite Shostakovich symphony, and well up in my Top Ten Symphonies of All Time.

Sounds great, I'll give him a try, since I have the Haitink cycle and have never really did much in-depth listening. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on April 09, 2008, 11:00:27 AM
Quote from: springrite on April 09, 2008, 08:49:00 AM
First up, symphony #14.

That's plunging right in, Paul!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: not edward on April 09, 2008, 11:31:52 AM
When I take my DSCH symphonic plunges, it almost always ends up involving #4, #14 and #15.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 25, 2008, 04:48:09 AM
Quote from: Yakov Milkis, violinist with the Leningrad PhilharmonicI do remember . . . we were rehearsing the Eighth Symphony for a forthcoming performance in the concert season.  Dmitri Dmitriyevich had come up to Leningrad as usual for the rehearsal.  In the break Mravinsky turned round to us and said, 'Do you know, I have this impression that here in this place Dmitri Dmitriyevich has omitted something;  there's a discrepancy between the harmonies of these chords as they appear here and where they occur elsewhere.  I've always wanted to ask Dmitri Dmitriyevich about this point, but somehow I have never got round to it.'

Just at this moment, Dmitri Dmitriyevich himself came up to Mravinsky, who put the question to him without further ado.  Dmitri Dmitriyevich glanced at the score: 'Oh dear, what a terrible omission, what an error I have committed.  But you know what, let's leave it as it is, just let things stay as they are.'  We then understood that this 'error' was deliberate.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Guido on September 25, 2008, 05:52:46 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 18, 2008, 06:30:25 AM
New string quartet, Guido?

Sorry - taken a while to respond... Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAKLKokYDso

The piece (SQ no.16) is mentioned just a few posts above your post. It's a fantastic piece.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 25, 2008, 05:54:54 AM
Quote from: edward on April 09, 2008, 11:31:52 AM
When I take my DSCH symphonic plunges, it almost always ends up involving #4, #14 and #15.

And quite right!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Guido on October 17, 2008, 04:42:10 PM
QuoteI want listeners to reflect upon my new symphony ... to realise that they must lead pure and fruitful lives for the glory of their Motherland, their people and the most progressive ideas motivating our socialist society. That is what I was thinking about as I wrote my new work. I want my listeners, as they leave the hall after hearing my symphony, to think that life is truly beautiful

What do people make of this passage that Shostakovich wrote in the Preface to the Fourteenth Symphony. Is the whole thing an example of his dark humour and irony, or is some of it genuinely meant?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on October 17, 2008, 04:48:43 PM
". . . for the glory of [...] the most progressive ideas motivating our socialist society" is certainly tongue-in-cheek.

I don't remember any such Preface to the score I have of the Fourteenth . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Guido on October 17, 2008, 04:54:00 PM
From the Wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._14_(Shostakovich)#cite_note-6
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Guido on October 17, 2008, 04:58:30 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 17, 2008, 04:48:43 PM
". . . for the glory of [...] the most progressive ideas motivating our socialist society" is certainly tongue-in-cheek.


Well obviously, but does that render the rest of that sentence also a mockery, in which case what are we to make of the 'life is truly beautiful'. Is that really what he is trying to say in this work?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on October 17, 2008, 05:22:45 PM
Quote from: Guido on October 17, 2008, 04:58:30 PM
Well obviously, but does that render the rest of that sentence also a mockery, in which case what are we to make of the 'life is truly beautiful'. Is that really what he is trying to say in this work?

I can't find my copy of Fay at the moment.  There's a quote from Shostakovich in there which seems to me to have the ring of truth.  I'll have to paraphrase.  He was great friends with Britten;  and Shostakovich greatly admired the War Requiem, only as an atheist, Shostakovich felt that Britten went too far in offering after-death solace to the listener.  So the Fourteenth (dedicate to Britten) was assembled in the spirit of "death is it, it's final."  (Though we observe the note of artistic 'immortality' yearned for in what I consider the emotional core of the piece, "Delvig! Oh, Delvig!")

Beyond the quote which I cannot at the moment turn up . . . the insistence upon optimism, the upbeat tenets of "Socialist Realism," in even the post-Stalin USSR would have made such a piece impossible to publish.  So perhaps Shostakovich had to compose such an apparently duplicitous preface, because it had to be done.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: greg on October 17, 2008, 06:52:21 PM
Quote from: Guido on October 17, 2008, 04:42:10 PM
What do people make of this passage that Shostakovich wrote in the Preface to the Fourteenth Symphony. Is the whole thing an example of his dark humour and irony, or is some of it genuinely meant?
Wow.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Ugh! on October 17, 2008, 10:05:39 PM
IMO there is hardly any work by Dmitri that is more fascinating than the 8th SQ. Having been diagnosed with a serious infliction and being forced to join the Communist Party, Shostakovich was apparently planning a suicide, intending the 8th SQ as an epitaph, dedicating it to himself (DSCH  ::)) and victims of totalitarianism. "While I was composing it I shed the same amount of tears as I would have to pee after half-a-dozen beers". There is some genuine frustration and anger surfacing in the second movement (Allegro Molto), which has always been among my favorite violent erruptions in classical music, bordering on trash metal  >:D.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 10, 2008, 11:33:33 PM
Concerto day yesterday. "Neue Philharmonie Westfalen" (Cond. Amos Talmon - He has Bernsteinian expressive qualities) with Borodin, Tchaikovsky and Shostakovich. Borodin: The obvious (Polovetsian Dances), a Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto op.35 and Shostakovich Symphony No. 1.
I don't like any Violin concertos yet. I didn't find the violin soloists parts to be part of the music. Too extroverted, too artificially exaggerated. It's disturbing the flow of the music rather than supporting it. People seem to like it. Don't know exactly why. Maybe the wish of everybody, to become the center of the world just for one day.

Now the Shostakovich 1. I have only loosely listened to the symphony twice. I must say I was really impressed yesterday. It's very modern, creative and working well. An exciting and tense piece of music. No weak spots for me in the Symphony. I loved the lento, it is of a disturbing beauty. It has some kind abyss shining through. MORE MORE MORE! :) The Piano was hardly audible in the ending of the symphony.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on December 11, 2008, 06:52:15 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on December 10, 2008, 11:33:33 PM
Concerto day yesterday. "Neue Philharmonie Westfalen" (Cond. Amos Talmon - He has Bernsteinian expressive qualities) with Borodin, Tchaikovsky and Shostakovich. Borodin: The obvious (Polovetsian Dances), a Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto op.35 and Shostakovich Symphony No. 1.
I don't like any Violin concertos yet. I didn't find the violin soloists parts to be part of the music. Too extroverted, too artificially exaggerated. It's disturbing the flow of the music rather than supporting it. People seem to like it. Don't know exactly why. Maybe the wish of everybody, to become the center of the world just for one day.

I like concerti, including violin concerti.  I have no desire to be the center of the world, ever.

Quote from: WurstNow the Shostakovich 1. I have only loosely listened to the symphony twice. I must say I was really impressed yesterday. It's very modern, creative and working well. An exciting and tense piece of music. No weak spots for me in the Symphony. I loved the lento, it is of a disturbing beauty. It has some kind abyss shining through. MORE MORE MORE! :) The Piano was hardly audible in the ending of the symphony.

Aye, it's a very fine first symphony, and a worthy addition to the repertory.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: drogulus on December 11, 2008, 12:25:37 PM

     I've been listening to the 1st quite a bit lately (Stokowski and the Haitink from my recent acquisition of the cycle). I really ought to get started with the 4th now, shouldn't I?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jowcol on December 11, 2008, 04:45:40 PM
It's interesting a lot of you like the Fourth.  I have a very special relationship with it.

For what it's worth, I like DSCH, but I haven't found the need to dig too deep in the Catalog. I like the 10th the most, (particularly the long first movement), the 5th of course, and, call me shallow, but I also like the "Bolero" part of the 7th, although it strikes me that the last couple movements stretched themselves thin.  But still, I have a weird relationship with the 4th some of you might understand, particularly the last 7 minutes or so of the final movement.

As it turned out, back in the 80s, I had bought the 4th on vinyl, and it never really clicked with me, and I put it away after a couple listens.  Two years later, juggling night classes at college and a job, I have to drive home late at night having been up for about 40 hours.  I only had a radio, but found something on the classical station that was listenable.  (Yes, it was the last movement of the 4th, but I didn't recognize it.)

Anyway, I'm enjoying the music well enough, and am driving home on an empty parkway at 60 mph, with tall, concrete sound barriers on either side when the tympani kicked in, and suddenly the dramatic last few minutes had started.  I let my imagination run free-- it sounding like some ultimate conflict between good and evil, the forces of good struggling against some sort of inhuman juggernaut.

I was seconds away from anus-clenching terror.

I became aware something large over my left shoulder.  An 18 wheeler tractor trailer had decided he wanted my lane with me in it.  I hit the brakes at 60 mph and started swerving, first towards the concrete sound barrier, and then the truck, burning rubber and sometimes going on two wheels.  The wild thing about was that it seemed perfectly in synch with the music, sort of like a Fantasia getting wayyyy too personal.  Still skidding, I saw a large concrete column in front of me that was supporting an underpass.  There was no way out.  I bent down, held the steering wheel as tight as I could, kept my foot on the break and closed my eyes.

As the tires stopped squealing, and I heard the truck thunder off into the distance, the loud crescendo had ending, and the theme I had associated with forces of good had morphed into a funereal dirge.  Still shaking, I looked up and saw that I had come to a stop about 6 inches from the  pillar.  The funereal dirge hit home-- that could have been me.

As Phillip K. Dick had put it, "It is a terrifying experience indeed to have been bushwhacked by the Living God." That was just how I felt. 

As you now, the last couple minute have this long sustained, erie pedal happening, which seemed to embody for me the all-too-thin line between life and death.  Of course, I had to wait for the announcer to tell me what I was listening too-- me and this piece I was listening to  were now inseperable, and yes, it was the 4th.

The next day, I decided I needed some Shostakovitch, so I went through my LPs, and there was the fourth.  I listened to it end to end, and I still couldn't wrap my head around it.  But, the hair stood up on the back of my neck during the last 7 minutes, and just to top it off.  Strangely enough, right at the point where the funereal dirge started, they did a test of the local air raid sirens.  (Gotta love the Reagan years)  They did it once a month, and I got lucky.

When I made the move to CDs, I bought the 4th first.  Not that it was my favorite, not that I still haven't really grasped the whole thing, but there is a lifetime in those last seven minutes..

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: greg on December 12, 2008, 01:23:55 PM
Makes me never want to listen to music while driving.....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 15, 2008, 05:30:01 AM
Quote from: jowcol on December 11, 2008, 04:45:40 PMIt's interesting a lot of you like the Fourth.  I have a very special relationship with it.
Bad experience, good music. Haven't listened a lot yet to #4, but I remember it was soo interesting. The whole music, also last movement somewhat reminded me of Mahler, e.g. the "Tamboursg'sell" (translated as 'little drummer boy') would go well with the last mvmt.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on December 15, 2008, 04:00:39 PM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on December 15, 2008, 05:30:01 AM
Haven't listened a lot yet to #4, but I remember it was soo interesting. The whole music, also last movement somewhat reminded me of Mahler, e.g. the "Tamboursg'sell" (translated as 'little drummer boy') would go well with the last mvmt.
In another thread, we identified several Mahler quotes (from the symphonies) in that third movement, so you may be right as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on December 15, 2008, 04:16:48 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on December 15, 2008, 04:00:39 PM
In another thread, we identified several Mahler quotes (from the symphonies) in that third movement, so you may be right as well.

Could you recap those for us here?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on December 18, 2008, 06:50:53 AM
Dumbest thing I have yet seen said of the Leningrad Symphony:

QuoteLacking the structural inevitability of Bruckner or the prolific invention of Mahler . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on December 18, 2008, 06:51:17 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 15, 2008, 04:16:48 PM
Could you recap those for us here?

Second asking.  I am interested.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Two-Tone on December 18, 2008, 07:00:20 AM
Dumbest thing anyone has yet seen said of an informed comment of the Leningrad Symphony:

Quote from: karlhenning on December 18, 2008, 06:50:53 AM
Dumbest thing I have yet seen said of the Leningrad Symphony:

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Kullervo on December 18, 2008, 07:07:36 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 18, 2008, 06:50:53 AM
the structural inevitability of Bruckner


The only inevitability in Bruckner is that he will inevitably put me to sleep.  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on December 18, 2008, 07:08:22 AM
Quote from: Corey on December 18, 2008, 07:07:36 AM
The only inevitability in Bruckner is that he will inevitably put me to sleep.  8)

We can turn this into a positive  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on December 18, 2008, 07:33:23 AM
Best insight I have read today of the Leningrad Symphony:

QuoteIn the strange page scored for harp, bass clarinet, alto flute and two ordinary flutes, the balance of sonorities and easy tightness of execution was the kind of work that defines a world-class orchestra.

Although . . . "strange page"?  I find it magical.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: greg on December 18, 2008, 12:06:28 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 18, 2008, 07:08:22 AM
We can turn this into a positive  8)
I have myself recently (after starting out with the same feelings). All it took for me was time and repeated listenings and now he's my favorite composer to listen to while in class.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Bulldog on December 18, 2008, 12:08:54 PM
Quote from: G$ on December 18, 2008, 12:06:28 PM
I have myself recently (after starting out with the same feelings). All it took for me was time and repeated listenings and now he's my favorite composer to listen to while in class.

Sounds like you're making the most of your educational experience. ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on December 18, 2008, 05:57:41 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 15, 2008, 04:16:48 PM
Could you recap those for us here?
Weren't you in that thread  (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7682.40.html) at that time?

Quote from: G$What I didn't catch about this symphony until recently were the quotations from one of the main motives of Mahler's 4th. Pretty easy to miss, very subtle and most likely he did have it in mind although it could also have been just pure chance, being only a few notes (unless someone can prove this wrong).
Quote from: eyeresistI didn't notice references to Mahler's 4th, but I did notice the trumpet motif from the first movt of the 7th (the "Star Trek" fanfare), plus the reoccurring chord modulating from major to minor, from the 6th.
Quote from: G$
Quote from: eyeresistI didn't notice references to Mahler's 4th,
It's extremely easy to miss. It's just 4 notes plus two that are similar, a few minutes into the 3rd movement, and the flute plays this.......
Quote from: eyeresistbut I did notice the trumpet motif from the first movt of the 7th (the "Star Trek" fanfare), plus the reoccurring chord modulating from major to minor, from the 6th
Very interesting! This is what i like to hear in discussion about this symphony....... didn't even recognize this.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: greg on December 18, 2008, 06:36:46 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on December 18, 2008, 12:08:54 PM
Sounds like you're making the most of your educational experience. ;D
That's the cool part about what I'm doing. During the weekdays, I have time for 3 CDs+ a day during class, so in the long run that equals a huge amount of music consumption. Just a couple days ago, I listened to Bruckner's 0-3rd symphonies all in one day, for the first time (and now I've officially heard them all, besides 00).

I also had been listening to the Shostakovich quartets enough to become very familiar with them, although I've taken a break since it'll be awhile until I can listen to another so it feels fresh again.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 19, 2008, 11:51:13 AM
BTW, someone mentioned "Star Trek". Symphony No. 5, first movement, second half, is very Star Wars like. And Symphony 1, movement 2, this must be where John Williams has the Darth Vader theme from. After a minute played by wind instruments, many repetitions.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: greg on December 19, 2008, 12:05:44 PM
I'm listening to this tomorrow:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41pjMUHs%2BmL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on December 22, 2008, 08:24:33 AM
Anyone in the Boston area going to see Opera Boston's production of The Nose?  More info here (http://www.operaboston.org/operas_nose.php?MD=102&PID=6723&AID=VEN000123500).

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on January 06, 2009, 11:43:39 AM
Quote from: James on January 06, 2009, 11:39:51 AM
Shosta's op.87 is patchy imo (doesn't matter who plays it) and it ain't JSB that's for sure.

A. It needn't be JSB; it's Shostakovich, and it's excellent.

B. Where are the 'patches', exactly? Take your time.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Israfel the Black on February 10, 2009, 07:10:41 PM
I am curious to know what the GMG's thoughts are on Shostakovich's early Piano Trio in A Minor, Op. 50. I find moments of bliss sandwiched between moments of dissonance. It is not considered by many to be a mature work, it seems; though I think it is among his best. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on February 11, 2009, 05:42:48 AM
Quote from: bhodges on December 22, 2008, 08:24:33 AM
Anyone in the Boston area going to see Opera Boston's production of The Nose?  More info here (http://www.operaboston.org/operas_nose.php?MD=102&PID=6723&AID=VEN000123500).

Most tempting.

Quote from: Israfel the Black on February 10, 2009, 07:10:41 PM
I am curious to know what the GMG's thoughts are on Shostakovich's early Piano Trio in A Minor, Op. 50. I find moments of bliss sandwiched between moments of dissonance. It is not considered by many to be a mature work, it seems; though I think it is among his best. Any thoughts?

I like it very well. Not sure about among his best, but it is fine indeed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: ChamberNut on March 02, 2009, 09:49:37 AM
Any recommendations for great recordings of Shostakovich's Piano Quintet in G minor, op. 57

Normally, I don't like multiple composer discs, but I noticed at least a few pairings with Schnittke's Piano Quintet, which sound really tempting, as I found Schnittke's PQ to be extremely haunting!  0:)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Lethevich on March 02, 2009, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: KammerNuss on March 02, 2009, 09:49:37 AM
Any recommendations for great recordings of Shostakovich's Piano Quintet in G minor, op. 57

Normally, I don't like multiple composer discs, but I noticed at least a few pairings with Schnittke's Piano Quintet, which sound really tempting, as I found Schnittke's PQ to be extremely haunting!  0:)

The Naxos coupling (http://www.amazon.com/Piano-Quintets/dp/B00006GO41/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1236020334&sr=8-1) of those two is a successful recording. The Shostakovich in particular is a fine performance in clear sound.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: ChamberNut on March 02, 2009, 10:02:27 AM
Quote from: Lethe on March 02, 2009, 09:59:50 AM
The Naxos coupling (http://www.amazon.com/Piano-Quintets/dp/B00006GO41/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1236020334&sr=8-1) of those two is a successful recording. The Shostakovich in particular is a fine performance in clear sound.

Dog thanks cat for recommendation!  :D ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on March 02, 2009, 03:50:13 PM
Quote from: bhodges on December 22, 2008, 08:24:33 AM
Anyone in the Boston area going to see Opera Boston's production of The Nose? . . .

Happily, Bruce, it turns out that I shall, tomorrow.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: ChamberNut on March 05, 2009, 04:39:03 PM
Just checked this DVD out from the library (even though I may not have time to watch it in the next few days):

Shostakovich - Sonata for Viola

A film by Semyon Aranovich and Alexander Sokurov

Has anyone seen this?  :)

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on March 10, 2009, 03:47:39 PM
[ cross-post ]

Behold The Nose, itself (http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/2009/03/when-you-put-on-nose-it-gr.html)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on May 29, 2009, 09:25:17 AM
A friend recommended a new Naxos release of 'The Girlfriends' (film score) etc by Shostakovich, which I listened to today.  I strongly recommend it - it is a most quirky but engaging score alternating between string quartet, orchestra, chorus and featuring a mad theremin passage (like something out of the score for the film Ed Wood). It is like nothing else I have heard by Shostakovich but it works and the sad end is moving - if you like Shostakovich and fancy something a bit different you should enjoy this CD. It also features an equally strange theatre score for 'Rule, Britannia!' (never published as the play's author was executed in the purges). However, of enormous interest is the original opening seven minutes of Shostakovich's 9th Symphony, which is nothing like the actual 9th Symphony and more in keeping with the spirit of the Leningrad Symphony and Symphony No 8 - it has a great sense of urgency and I immediately wanted to hear it again (it is called 'Symphonic Movement' - 1945 unfinished).  Part of me wishes that Shostakovich had continued with this work:

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 29, 2009, 09:28:58 AM
Hmm . . . most interesting, Jeffrey!  The bits of (for instance) Moskva-Cheryomushki which are an extra on a DVD are charming, interesting, though I don't think I need it in the home library.  I do really like the Odna score for what it is.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on May 29, 2009, 09:31:37 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 29, 2009, 09:28:58 AM
Hmm . . . most interesting, Jeffrey!  The bits of (for instance) Moskva-Cheryomushki which are an extra on a DVD are charming, interesting, though I don't think I need it in the home library.  I do really like the Odna score for what it is.

Hi Karl, I must look out for 'Odna' score although I have the Hamlet Naxos CD. I did enjoy this one (picture now above).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 29, 2009, 09:33:43 AM
Oh, that's a Naxos disc I should snaffle.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on May 29, 2009, 09:45:54 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 29, 2009, 09:25:17 AM
A friend recommended a new Naxos release of 'The Girlfriends' (film score) etc by Shostakovich, which I listened to today.  I strongly recommend it - it is a most quirky but engaging score alternating between string quartet, orchestra, chorus and featuring a mad theremin passage (like something out of the score for the film Ed Wood). It is like nothing else I have heard by Shostakovich but it works and the sad end is moving - if you like Shostakovich and fancy something a bit different you should enjoy this CD. It also features an equally strange theatre score for 'Rule, Britannia!' (never published as the play's author was executed in the purges). However, of enormous interest is the original opening seven minutes of Shostakovich's 9th Symphony, which is nothing like the actual 9th Symphony and more in keeping with the spirit of the Leningrad Symphony and Symphony No 8 - it has a great sense of urgency and I immediately wanted to hear it again (it is called 'Symphonic Movement' - 1945 unfinished).  Part of me wishes that Shostakovich had continued with this work:

What an intriguing recording!  Thanks so much for the comments and I will probably see if I can find it over the weekend. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on May 30, 2009, 12:12:54 AM
Shostakovich is the Led Zeppelin of classical music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on May 30, 2009, 01:55:50 AM
Quote from: bhodges on May 29, 2009, 09:45:54 AM
What an intriguing recording!  Thanks so much for the comments and I will probably see if I can find it over the weekend. 

--Bruce

Bruce,

I'll be curious to know what you make of it! (and Karl too if you 'snaffle' a copy  ;))

Jefffrey
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on May 30, 2009, 03:14:29 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 30, 2009, 12:12:54 AM
Shostakovich is the Led Zeppelin of classical music.

meaning?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 30, 2009, 04:32:06 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 30, 2009, 12:12:54 AM
Shostakovich is the Led Zeppelin of classical music.

It's the other way around. Shostakovich came first. So Led Zepplin is the Shostakovich of pop music. 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 04:33:23 AM
I can't quit Mitya, babe . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 04:59:53 AM
Quote from: eyeresistbut I did notice the trumpet motif from the first movt of the 7th (the "Star Trek" fanfare), plus the reoccurring chord modulating from major to minor, from the 6th

Well, you remind me that I need yet to listen to the Mahler Seventh (and it was commended to me by a friend, now passed away, rest his soul, who admired both composers).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 31, 2009, 02:41:56 PM
I have a co-worker who loves music, generally likes classical music, but somehow, he thinks he hates Shostakovich.

Of course, that may simply be The Case.  But if you had to select one piece to wean him away from distaste for Shostakovich: Which would it be?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: not edward on May 31, 2009, 02:44:33 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 31, 2009, 02:41:56 PM
I have a co-worker who loves music, generally likes classical music, but somehow, he thinks he hates Shostakovich.

Of course, that may simply be The Case.  But if you had to select one piece to wean him away from distaste for Shostakovich: Which would it be?
Either the first violin concerto or the second piano concerto, depending on his taste in music, I think.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: ChamberNut on May 31, 2009, 05:53:19 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 31, 2009, 02:41:56 PM
I have a co-worker who loves music, generally likes classical music, but somehow, he thinks he hates Shostakovich.

Of course, that may simply be The Case.  But if you had to select one piece to wean him away from distaste for Shostakovich: Which would it be?

Jazz Suite No. 2  or the Piano Quintet
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 31, 2009, 06:09:00 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 31, 2009, 02:41:56 PM
I have a co-worker who loves music, generally likes classical music, but somehow, he thinks he hates Shostakovich.

Of course, that may simply be The Case.  But if you had to select one piece to wean him away from distaste for Shostakovich: Which would it be?

The fifth symphony and the eighth string quartet seem to be among Shostakovich's more popular pieces, although I can see just about anybody being engaged by the more obscure Op.67 piano trio, especially with that haunting opening (which, btw, my wife - no classical connoisseur - just loves).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on June 01, 2009, 03:18:59 AM
The best way to awaken someone to DSCH is take him or her to a concert. There's always some sort of drama in DSCH's music, which isn't helped by thecomforts of a cd-player &c.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 01, 2009, 03:25:36 AM
Quote from: Herman on June 01, 2009, 03:18:59 AM
The best way to awaken someone to DSCH is take him or her to a concert.

That's certainly true.  Still, I am appreciating the recommended pieces . . . my view is clouded by too-encompassing enjoyment of the catalogue . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 01, 2009, 03:49:05 AM
QuoteViolin Concerto № 1
Piano Concerto № 2
Jazz Suite № 2
Piano Quintet
Symphony № 5
String Quartet № 8

Well, we have the two-disc set of five quartets at the shop, so I'll guess that the Opus 110 has already been tried, and (for the moment) found wanting.

This is a good crop of suggestions, thanks!  I must have a word with Epi, and we'll take it from there . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 01, 2009, 09:20:06 AM
First of June, folks: Dacha season is officially open.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on June 01, 2009, 09:46:42 AM
Karl, just play your friend the SLOW mvmts., you know, the really beautiful ones (Piano Qnt., Trio No.2, cello sonata...pick a passacaglia). You shouldn't have played him Op.110...try the slow mvmt. of SQ No.6 for that. I know how easy it is to get the wrong impression of Shosty. Sometimes you just have to trick people (Sun Tzu). I don't think this guy can handel a whole 4-5 mvmt. piece yet.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Guido on June 01, 2009, 01:11:27 PM
Can we list Shostakovich's Passacaglias here? The most obvious one is the one from the first violin concerto - maybe the most beautiful thing that Shostakovich ever wrote. Which other ones are there?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 01, 2009, 03:35:41 PM
Quote from: Guido on June 01, 2009, 01:11:27 PM
Can we list Shostakovich's Passacaglias here? The most obvious one is the one from the first violin concerto - maybe the most beautiful thing that Shostakovich ever wrote. Which other ones are there?

Is that the most obvious one?  ;)  I thought that designation would be the Intermezzo from Ledi Makbet . . .

Fourth movement of the Eighth Symphony . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on June 01, 2009, 10:08:07 PM
Karl, I think you should play your friend the Cello Concerto No. 1. It's the best thing by Shosty I've ever heard.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 04, 2009, 09:31:25 PM
New recording due out June 9th:

Gergiev/Mariinsky in The Nose.

Judging by Gergiev's past successes in opera this ought to be a recording to get. While the work itself of course is fully worthy of anyone's attention. 


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41W5z6LJetL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: George on June 05, 2009, 02:58:59 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 31, 2009, 02:41:56 PM
I have a co-worker who loves music, generally likes classical music, but somehow, he thinks he hates Shostakovich.

More for us!  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: ChamberNut on June 05, 2009, 03:48:05 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 04, 2009, 09:31:25 PM
New recording due out June 9th:

Gergiev/Mariinsky in The Nose.

Judging by Gergiev's past successes in opera this ought to be a recording to get. While the work itself of course is fully worthy of anyone's attention. 


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41W5z6LJetL._SS400_.jpg)

Well, after seeing Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk, I'd be interested in seeing this one!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: The new erato on June 05, 2009, 03:53:58 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 05, 2009, 03:48:05 AM
Well, after seeing Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk, I'd be interested in seeing this one!
To get your nose in you mean? Don't expect anything similar.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 05, 2009, 04:57:03 AM
Quote from: erato on June 05, 2009, 03:53:58 AM
To get your nose in you mean? Don't expect anything similar.

No, but it is still a fine aroma.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mozart on June 05, 2009, 09:24:59 PM
I dove into the deep end of the pool today and heard the 8th string quartet...it's not jolly stuff is it? I was kind of surprised in a way how nothing was hidden, from the first hearing I heard everything clear and the 2nd and 3rd hearings added nothing new. It has to be the most depressing thing I've ever heard though...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: The new erato on June 05, 2009, 11:51:26 PM
Quote from: Mozart on June 05, 2009, 09:24:59 PM
It has to be the most depressing thing I've ever heard though...
Never heard Pettersson?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mozart on June 06, 2009, 01:58:50 PM
Quote from: erato on June 05, 2009, 11:51:26 PM
Never heard Pettersson?

Nope first time I passed Brahms!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: greg on June 06, 2009, 07:45:19 PM
I suppose boredom can lead to adventurism, eh?

A clip from Pettersson's 7th:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeuYzeqktAY

very much straightforward minor key with isolated dissonances, quite like the DSCH SQ 8.
This is the only thing I can get from youtube, since they took down that full recording of the 7th. Also, the 8th is worth listening to- even more tragic and hypnotic- really takes you down the depths of the subconscious like nothing else does.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on June 07, 2009, 09:27:19 PM
"Mozart" would like Shosty's SQ No.6. Next to No.1, it's the most standard thing in DSCH, no? At least the most Haydnesque.

I think a lot of us are so Shosty-crazy (including myself) that we forget that not everyone likes the depressing stuff. And not everyone likes "sarcasm" in their music. Sym No.5 seems like something the Great Unwashed could enjoy... a "standard' sounding sym: tragic/heroic in the Brahmsian mold.

SQ No.8 Op.110 is definitely my least fav Shosty bar none. I think it's a shame that this is the piece many newbies hear first (Kronos?). I think it can turn off a lot of potential listeners to Shosty. I know it wouldn't have worked on me.

SQ No.7, however, is quite quirky and spunky, with some "whistle appeal."

Note how "Mozart" came to Shosty from Brahms. The Piano Qnt. would be perfect.

All I'm saying is, I've seen how easy it is to turn someone off of DSCH, but once I figured out the secret, I got everyone thinking Shosty was a tuneful Romantic. Then, once they're hooked...aha!... then you reel them in.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on June 07, 2009, 09:38:33 PM
Can anyone wax poetic over any really really special recordings of SQ No.15?

I'm listening to Fitzwilliam now, and I'm not really taken: sounds kind of unsure (which is understandable). I've had "most" of the SQ sets out there (of the old guard), but I sold the Emerson last year (the last to go) to start fresh. So now I have zero Shosty SQs, and I really just want the most monumental No.15 I can find (I hope it's not the Emerson, otherwise I probably should have kept it!: they WERE pretty good, actually).

I remember the Brodsky disc, "End Games", with DSCH 15 and LvB 16, an interesting concept, but I don't remember the performance. One that I haven't heard is the Sony disc with Yo-Yo Ma (w/ Gubaidulina "Rejoice"). Perhaps that's a good one? Are there any other "mix" cds with only No.15?

I also seem to recall enjoying the Shostakovich Qrt./Olympia in the late SQs.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 07, 2009, 11:44:53 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 07, 2009, 09:27:19 PM

SQ No.8 Op.110 is definitely my least fav Shosty bar none.

Why? What turns you off about it?

Quote from: snyprrr on June 07, 2009, 09:38:33 PM
Can anyone wax poetic over any really really special recordings of SQ No.15?.....I really just want the most monumental No.15 I can find

"Monumental" in what way? I've heard several recordings of it (Fitzwilliam, Emerson, Shosty, coupla others) and liked all of them. My intro to the piece though was a recording by the Taneyev Quartet, an LP that I think has never appeared on CD. I recall it being "special," but maybe that's just because it was the first time I heard the 4tet and it was the music itself that struck me as special...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on June 08, 2009, 10:33:49 AM
Quote from: Spitvalve on June 07, 2009, 11:44:53 PM
Why? What turns you off about it?

The melodic curve. Maybe it's "too" perfect. It reminds me of a lost Bartok SQ. I mean, these aren't....

I suppose, when taken by itself and out of context, it's a perfect example of the "death of classical music," I mean, as the obvious tombstone that it is supposed to be.

It's not so much "me" being turned off as newbies who might get the wrong impression of DSCH. There are not really "obviously" beautiful melodic curves to this piece.

I garauntee that if I played it for my dear old mum she would get "that" look on her face, but if I played the slow mvmt. from No.6 she would surely say, "That's lovely, dear. (now go find a job!)"
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on June 08, 2009, 10:39:00 AM
Quote from: Spitvalve on June 07, 2009, 11:44:53 PM
"Monumental" in what way? I've heard several recordings of it (Fitzwilliam, Emerson, Shosty, coupla others) and liked all of them. My intro to the piece though was a recording by the Taneyev Quartet, an LP that I think has never appeared on CD. I recall it being "special," but maybe that's just because it was the first time I heard the 4tet and it was the music itself that struck me as special...

I believe the Taneyev WAS on that one Russian off shoot cd label (garish, Pollack style color wooshes on the cover?)? Monumental???...Iyedunno!!! It's the only SQ I really want right now, but the only options are Brodsky and Sony/Ma.

Unless I can find an issue with 7, 11, & 15.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on June 08, 2009, 12:29:27 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 07, 2009, 09:38:33 PM
Can anyone wax poetic over any really really special recordings of SQ No.15?

To me that's a no-brainer: the Borodin Quartet on Melodyia / EMI, sometime around 1980.

There's another Borodin SQ recording of nr 15 on Teldec, a later one.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on June 09, 2009, 08:02:19 AM
[Pettersson]
Quote from: Bahamut on June 06, 2009, 07:45:19 PMThis is the only thing I can get from youtube, since they took down that full recording of the 7th. Also, the 8th is worth listening to- even more tragic and hypnotic- really takes you down the depths of the subconscious like nothing else does.
Don't forget No. 6. Highlights: Sheer sad beauty after the 35 min. mark (CPO release) and a very sad and tragic ending. The ending of #7 is remarkable, but I think the ones of #6 and also 9 even more (9 has a loooong -5 minutes- string lamento in the end - also an almost persistent note which we know of Shosty 4/15 ending).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Drasko on June 11, 2009, 04:04:35 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 10, 2009, 05:21:09 AM
Probably, the metronome marking that Shostakovich inked for the second movement is impossibly fast for any orchestras.
Quote from: Drasko on June 10, 2009, 04:08:53 PM
What would be the movement timing if Shostakovich metronome markings would be observed?
Mitropoulos drove NewYork Philharmonic through utterly breakneck speed to about three and a half minutes iirc.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 10, 2009, 04:33:37 PM
Not sure (that's a relatively simple math problem I can do later when I fetch the score from upstairs).  Maksim Dmitiyevich's Allegro runs 4:18, Kondrashin's, 4:09.  Ančerl's runs a mighty brisk 3:51, and that is likely the fastest I've ever heard an orchestra manage it.

Mighty long them stairs, eh?   :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2009, 04:05:55 AM
Never did get up 'em, last night. Sorry!  Will try to remember when home this evening.

It'll be late . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2009, 04:06:53 AM
Thanks for the reminder that I should go listen to the youtube clip that Brian furnished of that Allegro . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Drasko on June 11, 2009, 04:07:12 AM
At your leisure, I'm just plain curious.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DFO on June 11, 2009, 06:57:06 AM
Shosta and friends...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2009, 05:05:50 AM
The second movement, Allegro, of the Symphony № 10 in E Minor, Opus 93, bears a tempo marking of half = 176.

The movement consists of 356 measures total, predominantly in 2/4:

2/4 measures: 349
3/4 measures: 7

I'm going to skip that finer math which would yield a precise* "theoretical timing", and cut to the generalizing chase with the observation that, at a tempo of a half-note = 176, there are 176 measures of 2/4 to the minute, and two minutes of play would thus rip through 352 measures. "By the metronome," then, the piece supposedly runs scarcely more than two minutes.  So my rough recollectio/estimation is vindicated:

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 10, 2009, 05:21:09 AM
Probably, the metronome marking that Shostakovich inked for the second movement is impossibly fast for any orchestra.  But Ančerl and the Czech Phil make an exhilirating attempt at it!

However . . . what if the half-note in the metronome marking is a misprint for quarter-note = 176?  At 176 quarter-notes to the minute, a quarter-note = .341 seconds, and the ratio yield:

349 mm. of 2/4 = 238 seconds = 3'58
7 mm. of 3/4 = 7 seconds

Total 'theoretical' duration = 4:05

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 10, 2009, 04:33:37 PM
. . . Maksim Dmitriyevich's Allegro runs 4:18, Kondrashin's, 4:09.  Ančerl's runs a mighty brisk 3:51, and that is likely the fastest I've ever heard an orchestra manage it.

My score is a Kalmus printing of an older edition of the score, and in fact, I do not find any copyright information in the score;  so I wonder if the newer definitive Shostakovich edition amends the metronome marking at all? (Time for another visit to the NEC library.)

* Normally, I should say "precise (barring the necessary and inevitable musical 'relaxations' in phrasing)", only this movement seems to me an obvious case of no such relaxation of any of the phrases;  it just plows on inexorably until the final bar.
Title: Honorable Mention
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2009, 08:15:27 AM
Quote from: Gregyeah, let's all go back to the Dmitri Dacha

so i'm locking this thread

bye Greg's Shosty thread.....


i won't miss you.........


:'(


i said i wuzn't gunna cwy......



>:D

Here
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Drasko on June 12, 2009, 08:34:28 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 12, 2009, 05:05:50 AM
The second movement, Allegro, of the Symphony № 10 in E Minor, Opus 93, bears a tempo marking.....

Thanks! Scarcely more than two minutes to me looks completely impossible, it has to be mistake. While 4:05 seems perfectly logical. Evgeny Aleksandrovich, whose overall pacing of the symphony is very much to my liking (first movement at around 22:20) takes it at 4:00-4:07 and it sounds pretty convincing. That being said the Ancerl is still big favorite (inspite being trifle quick).

For the fun of it here is Mitropoulos, whipping NewYorkers into frenzy, live october 1955 in Athens. Clocking at hard to believe 3:25
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/24/2018019/dsch10mitrnypathens55.mp3[/mp3] 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2009, 08:55:33 AM
Glad to be of service! And thanks for that Mitropoulos clip; I'll give that a listen tomorrow-ish.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2009, 09:03:14 AM
Quote from: Drasko on June 12, 2009, 08:34:28 AM
Thanks! Scarcely more than two minutes to me looks completely impossible, it has to be mistake. While 4:05 seems perfectly logical. Evgeny Aleksandrovich, whose overall pacing of the symphony is very much to my liking (first movement at around 22:20) takes it at 4:00-4:07 and it sounds pretty convincing. That being said the Ancerl is still big favorite (inspite being trifle quick).

I wonder how fast Dmitri Dmitriyevich &al. take that Allegro in the archival two-piano recording (and what the overall timing is).  I should find it of interest, without necessarily taking it as definitive . . . Shostakovich was a nervous fellow (quite understandably), and I get an impression from sundry accounts that he tended to push tempi.  A lot of his music is long-breathed, and needs space;  but a man in his position dreads that an audience might find his music "boring" . . . .

In all events, I think all these recordings I've mentioned (Maksim Dmitriyevich, Kondrashin, Ančerl) are 'within a reasonable range of' the marking, and I truly like them all.  Agreed that the Ančerl has a special lustre.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Drasko on June 12, 2009, 10:14:44 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 12, 2009, 09:03:14 AM
I wonder how fast Dmitri Dmitriyevich &al. take that Allegro in the archival two-piano recording (and what the overall timing is)....

21:03, 3:49 (3:41 actually), 12:01, 10:46

You might be able to stream the whole thing, try clicking on Прослушать
http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=32070&genreid=
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2009, 11:01:07 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: greg on June 12, 2009, 03:22:08 PM
Quote from: Drasko on June 12, 2009, 08:34:28 AM
Thanks! Scarcely more than two minutes to me looks completely impossible, it has to be mistake. While 4:05 seems perfectly logical. Evgeny Aleksandrovich, whose overall pacing of the symphony is very much to my liking (first movement at around 22:20) takes it at 4:00-4:07 and it sounds pretty convincing. That being said the Ancerl is still big favorite (inspite being trifle quick).

For the fun of it here is Mitropoulos, whipping NewYorkers into frenzy, live october 1955 in Athens. Clocking at hard to believe 3:25
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/24/2018019/dsch10mitrnypathens55.mp3[/mp3] 
:D
Now that's crazy.....
sure it isn't sped up?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 13, 2009, 04:46:48 AM
And a footnote. (http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/2009/06/soft-echo-of-timing-issues.html)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on June 13, 2009, 06:01:55 AM
At the other end, Sanderling with his BSO takes 4:39. EDIT: It's 4:34 without silence. This is what I'm used to. The whole Symphony is 55:23. Sanderlidace?
(http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:edZNXww5fMNFcM:http://www.naxos.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/0090182BCb.gif)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 13, 2009, 03:07:52 PM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on June 13, 2009, 06:01:55 AM
At the other end, Sanderling with his BSO takes 4:39. EDIT: It's 4:34 without silence. This is what I'm used to.

Pending actual audition, I am apt to consider that just plain too slow.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 14, 2009, 07:22:20 AM
Very excited about the "abandoned trunk of a Ninth" now out on Naxos.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on June 15, 2009, 07:04:37 AM
We talked abou timing. This is the final moment of Sym#15, IV. Adagio. The following differences are ridiculous. I feel Sanderling (19:41) is way too slow and Barshai (13:56)way too fast. I like slow version the Sanderling, still [Edit: And it has superb quality]. Also, the Timpani in the Barshai recording seems out of pitch.

Barshai (from the Brilliant edition - the ending fade is by me, sorry):
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/shosti_barshai_15.mp3[/mp3]
Sanderling/Berlin SO:
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/shosti_sanderling_15.mp3[/mp3]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 15, 2009, 07:14:07 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on June 15, 2009, 07:04:37 AM
We talked abou timing. This is the final moment of Sym#15, IV. Adagio. The following differences are ridiculous. I feel Sanderling (19:41) is way too slow and Barshai (13:56)way too fast. I like the Sanderling, still.

Kondrashin/Moscow Phil 15:12
Maksim Dmitriyevich/Prague Symphony 16:12
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on June 15, 2009, 03:31:25 PM
Mravinsky - 13.48 (discounting post-track silence)

Can anyone beat that?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on June 15, 2009, 11:33:06 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on June 15, 2009, 03:31:25 PMMravinsky - 13.48 (discounting post-track silence)

Can anyone beat that?
Well, Barshai minus post-tack silence is at the same length.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 16, 2009, 02:22:50 AM
You're both including some after-echo time in the space, following the last chord?  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Catison on June 17, 2009, 04:19:33 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on June 15, 2009, 07:04:37 AM
We talked abou timing. This is the final moment of Sym#15, IV. Adagio. The following differences are ridiculous. I feel Sanderling (19:41) is way too slow and Barshai (13:56)way too fast. I like slow version the Sanderling, still [Edit: And it has superb quality]. Also, the Timpani in the Barshai recording seems out of pitch.

Thanks for this.  But does this section have any relation to the tempo markings in the 4th symphony and 7th symphony, considering that is the allusion?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on June 17, 2009, 05:16:35 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2009, 02:22:50 AM
You're both including some after-echo time in the space, following the last chord?  8)
No, the Venezia release of the Mravinsky has about 20 seconds of dead air after the audio track has ceased.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on June 21, 2009, 02:59:41 PM
Since the Gergiev recording of The Nose has been released, I've been considering buying that one, as I don't have a recording of that opera yet.

But what I want to know how it compares to the Rozhdestvensky version of the piece.  I think the Rozhdestvensky might be better, especially because it also comes with The Gamblers op. 63b  But I really don't know either, and I would love some opinions before I buy either version.  (They are roughly the same price on arkiv)

Thanks!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 21, 2009, 05:53:27 PM
Quote from: Ring of Fire on June 21, 2009, 02:59:41 PM
Since the Gergiev recording of The Nose has been released, I've been considering buying that one, as I don't have a recording of that opera yet.

But what I want to know how it compares to the Rozhdestvensky version of the piece.  I think the Rozhdestvensky might be better, especially because it also comes with The Gamblers op. 63b  But I really don't know either, and I would love some opinions before I buy either version.  (They are roughly the same price on arkiv)

Thanks!

Well, personally I wouldn't be so quick to declare Rozhdestvensky's recording as "better" if I hadn't heard it. :) ;)

But I have - I've had it for quite a while now on LP. I also have the only other recording of The Nose to have ever been issued on recordings before the new Gergiev: Armin Jordan's on Cascavelle from Lausanne (in Russian). Alas, it's already OOP.

Personally my preference is by quite a margin in favor of the Jordan.

To me Rozhdestvensky's is heavy-ish, a bit sluggish, lacking in detail (despite the fine sound) and, well, extremely "Russian". Confused by this? Don't be. Because The Nose isn't much of a "Russian" work to begin with. It's perhaps the most "European" work of Shostakovich's I've ever heard. It's almost as if he's thrown his hat into the ring with all the other 'big dogs' from the Second Viennese school, like Berg, Webern, and such, and had a go at all manner of extreme experimentalism. The work is that zany in conception (musically).

This 'extremism' of course is why the work was so quick to be condemned by the Soviet commissars. "Formalist" they called it. A western trait. The Nose is perhaps the first link in a chain of works which eventually lead to Shostakovich's public trouncing.   

Sad.

Anyway, Jordan's is the type of performance that plays up all the extravagance in the work and presents it squarely as the experimental work it is.

Not that Rozhdestvensky is exactly bad, mind you, and I might come across as overly harsh above (it's really not a catastrophe), but it's just that in comparison with Jordan it really doesn't have the life and energy - the flair - the work clearly needs. At least to me.

Which leads me to the Gergiev recording. I haven't heard it yet but despite the seeming niggling here and there about Gergiev's merits as a conductor (nothing explicit, however, that I've ever read) he's mighty fine in the opera pit. And for the purposes of this post I'll just stick to the closest contemporary of Shostakovich who Gergiev has recorded operas of: Prokofiev. All four of the Gergiev-led Prokofiev operas I have (on Philips) show him to have a keen understanding of the dramatic and lyric potential of each respective work. He seems to be completely inside the music with every detail and phrase well thought-out, culminating in a type of 'stage presence' that literally resonates right into my little listening room. Dazzling!

So, with this in mind, my personal impressions are that the new Gergiev Nose should be a splendid affair. In every way I'm anticipating a performance perfectly in keeping with the spirit of the work: "western decadent" all the way. ;D

(Now, just when I'll get it I don't know. I already have two recordings of the work :-\ ).


BTW, here's a pic of Jordan's Nose (no pun intended):


(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yvkbRChKL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on June 21, 2009, 06:32:18 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 21, 2009, 05:53:27 PM
Well, personally I wouldn't be so quick to declare Rozhdestvensky's recording as "better" if you haven't heard it. :) ;) :)

I have - I've had it for quite a while now on LP. I also have the only other recording of The Nose to have ever been issued on recordings before the new Gergiev: Armin Jordan's on Cascavelle from Lausanne (in Russian). Alas, it's already OOP.

Personally my preference is by quite a margin in favor of the Jordan.

To me Rozhdestvensky's is heavy-ish, a bit sluggish, lacking in detail (despite the fine sound) and, well, extremely "Russian". Confused by this? Don't be. Because The Nose isn't much of a "Russian" work to begin with. It's perhaps the most "European" work of Shostakovich's I've ever heard. It's almost as if he's throwing his hat into the ring with all the other Big Dogs from the Second Viennese school, like Berg, Webern, and such, and having a go at all manner extreme experimentalism. The work is that zany in conception (musically).

This 'extremism' of course is why the work was so quick to be condemned by the Soviet commissars. "Formalist" they called it. A western trait. The Nose is perhaps the first link in a chain of works which eventually lead to Shostakovich's public trouncing.   

Sad.

Anyway, Jordan's is the type of performance that plays up all the extravagance in the work and presents it squarely as the experimental work it is.

Not that Rozhdestvensky is exactly bad, mind you, and I might come across as overly harsh above (it's really not a catastrophe), but it's just that in comparison with Jordan it really doesn't have the life and energy - the flair - the work clearly needs. At least to me.

Which leads me to the Gergiev recording. I haven't heard it yet but despite the seeming niggling here and there about Gergiev's merits as a conductor (nothing explicit, however, that I've ever read) he's mighty fine in the opera pit. And for the purposes of this post I'll just stick to the closest contemporary of Shostakovich who Gergiev has recorded operas of: Prokofiev. All four of the Gergiev-led Prokofiev operas I have (on Philips) show him to have a keen understanding of the dramatic and lyric potential of each respective work. He seems to be completely inside the music with every detail and phrase well thought-out, culminating in a type of 'stage presence' that resonates right into my little listening room. Dazzling!

So, with this in mind, my personal impressions are that the new Gergiev Nose should be a splendid affair. In every way I'm anticipating a performance perfectly in keeping with the spirit of the work: "western decadent" all the way. ;D

(Just when I'll get it I don't know. I already have two recordings of the work :-\ ).
Well, I worded what I meant to say wrongly.  I meant that it would be a better deal for the money with the Gambler's op. 63b along with The Nose.  I didn't mean better musically or what not.

Thanks for the advice!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 21, 2009, 06:57:24 PM
Quote from: Ring of Fire on June 21, 2009, 06:32:18 PM
Well, I worded what I meant to say wrongly.  I meant that it would be a better deal for the money with the Gambler's op. 63b along with The Nose.  I didn't mean better musically or what not.

Ah, gotcha. Sorry.

QuoteThanks for the advice!

Whatever you choose let us know your impressions. There aren't a whole lot of folks who know this work.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on June 22, 2009, 05:41:58 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 21, 2009, 06:57:24 PM
Whatever you choose let us know your impressions. There aren't a whole lot of folks who know this work.
I ended up ordering the Gergiev recording.  When I get a chance to listen to it, I will report my impressions.  I am looking forward to it :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 22, 2009, 07:13:28 PM
Quote from: Ring of Fire on June 22, 2009, 05:41:58 PM
I ended up ordering the Gergiev recording.  When I get a chance to listen to it, I will report my impressions.  I am looking forward to it :)

Nice. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on June 25, 2009, 04:41:52 PM
I got the CD of the Nose conducted by Gergiev today and I have listened to it.  I really liked Shostakovich's later Opera, Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District, so even though I wasn't expecting it to be anything like Lady Macbeth, I thought I would enjoy The Nose.  The Nose didn't disappoint me.  This is the only recording I have of the piece, as I've said before. 

To the CD, for the majority of the recording the balance between the orchestra and the singers were excellent, neither were too loud, or too soft, but at times I felt like the orchestra was overpowering the singers and could stand to be a little quieter, but this was not a huge problem for me, as I could still hear what they were saying, even if I couldn't understand them.  When I listen to the recording again, I will most likely listen while reading the libretto.  But the sound was clear and focused.  A really great start for the new label in recording quality, in my opinion.  I probably would have more specific things to say, or have more criticism or praise if I were a SRT major at my school, but I am not.  But I do think it was recorded extremely well.

Gergiev and the orchestra played extremely well.  I don't have the score, but everything seemed to me to fit perfectly in the style of the piece.  I really liked the interludes in the opera, especially with the percussion parts.

I hope when I have a chance to re-visit this in the future, it will make more of an impression on me, as I am sure I missed some stuff in the first listen, but I think it's an incredible piece of work and a great CD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 25, 2009, 07:38:44 PM
It's quite a tour-de-force for Boy Dmitri!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Lethevich on July 01, 2009, 09:51:39 AM
Can anyone recommend a good collection of orchestral music that is not symphonies or concertos?

Any good disc or two packed to the brim with suites, overtures, odes, marches, variations, concert allegros/scherzos and whatnot will be of interest.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on July 01, 2009, 10:46:50 AM
Quote from: Lethe on July 01, 2009, 09:51:39 AM
Can anyone recommend a good collection of orchestral music that is not symphonies or concertos?

Any good disc or two packed to the brim with suites, overtures, odes, marches, variations, concert allegros/scherzos and whatnot will be of interest.

Well, the Naxos disc of the complete Hamlet score should commend itself to you, here.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Drasko on July 02, 2009, 10:34:45 AM
Quote from: Lethe on July 01, 2009, 09:51:39 AM
Can anyone recommend a good collection of orchestral music that is not symphonies or concertos?

Any good disc or two packed to the brim with suites, overtures, odes, marches, variations, concert allegros/scherzos and whatnot will be of interest.

Well, there was Rozhdestvensky conducted Melodiya/BMG two-fer which exactly fits your description. I heard it ages ago and seem to recall that performances vere good enough and recording quality variable - soviet style, but it's long oop, you might find it used.
http://www.amazon.com/Shostakovich-Orchestral-Works-Anatoli-Obraztsov/dp/B000023ZS9

Other than that your best option is, I think, Chailly's three discs for Decca ('Jazz', Film and Dance). Cheap copies shouldn't be difficult to find. But take this as an information only, as I've heard only one of these three - 'Jazz' one and it's really good (though includes piano concerto which doesn't really work as coupling).
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/314VMGAZYRL._SL500_SL130_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41T55TTTF3L._SL500_SL130_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31JB1Y4KJ6L._SL500_SL130_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Lethevich on July 02, 2009, 11:19:34 AM
Damn, that Rozhdestvensky set looks perfect. Seems that its obscurity renders it not even piratable at this moment - I found only dead links. I'll bookmark the Amazon pages in the event of a sane price appearing in future! This one seems to have an interesting coupling of works:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/1c/f7/bb0a92c008a08680d6257010.L._AA200_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Shostakovich-Symphony-October-Festive-Overture/dp/B00000421D/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1246562041&sr=1-14)

Thanks for the Chailly tip! I didn't even know the recordings existed ::) They do seem perfect, now all he needs to do is record an overtures disc, and I'm a happy cat 0:)

Edit: Worst Grammar Ever.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on July 02, 2009, 11:47:34 AM
Quote from: Lethe on July 01, 2009, 09:51:39 AM
Can anyone recommend a good collection of orchestral music that is not symphonies or concertos?

Any good disc or two packed to the brim with suites, overtures, odes, marches, variations, concert allegros/scherzos and whatnot will be of interest.
Easy: Brilliant Classics has a 3 CD set of all the jazz suites, ballet suites, and a few other things besides.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on July 05, 2009, 08:02:47 PM
Finally, I like Dmitri's music much more than his movies.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Dmitrij_Dmitrijevič_Šostakovič_(Дми́трий_Дми́триевич_Шостако́вич).jpg/200px-Dmitrij_Dmitrijevič_Šostakovič_(Дми́трий_Дми́триевич_Шостако́вич).jpg)

(http://www.moviepilot.de/files/images/0100/4196/HarryPotter_article.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on July 05, 2009, 08:09:49 PM
Good call - they are wearing the same glasses!  :o
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: greg on July 05, 2009, 08:17:44 PM
That is so creepy. It's pretty much impossible to tell them apart. I wonder what the Harry Potter actor would look like when he's 40?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on July 05, 2009, 08:24:33 PM
Quote from: Greg on July 05, 2009, 08:17:44 PM
That is so creepy. It's pretty much impossible to tell them apart. I wonder what the Harry Potter actor would look like when he's 40?

By the time the final movie comes out you'll see. ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: greg on July 05, 2009, 08:27:25 PM
You know, what'd be great is if he started playing as Shostakovich in a biography...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2009, 05:25:46 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on July 05, 2009, 08:02:47 PM
Finally, I like Dmitri's music much more than his movies.

To disregard the visual pun  8)

. . . but you do like the Kozintsev films with Shostakovich soundtracks, yes?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on July 06, 2009, 06:22:24 AM
Quote from: Greg on July 05, 2009, 08:17:44 PMI wonder what the Harry Potter actor would look like when he's 40?

We only know about Harry Potter how he looks like when he's 68.

(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/hp70.jpg)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 06, 2009, 05:25:46 AM. . . but you do like the Kozintsev films with Shostakovich soundtracks, yes?

Never heard of those. But Gadfly music is lovely.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2009, 06:58:44 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on July 06, 2009, 06:22:24 AM
Never heard of those.

Watch them! Hamlet and King Lear. Essential viewing for Shostakovich enthusiasts.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: greg on July 06, 2009, 06:20:14 PM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on July 06, 2009, 06:22:24 AM
We only know about Harry Potter how he looks like when he's 68.

(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/hp70.jpg)

Never heard of those. But Gadfly music is lovely.
Nice. He looks like a zombie. Makes me wanna play Resident Evil, and throw incendiary grenades at crowds of those dumb zombies and then watch them catch on fire and die.  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on July 06, 2009, 08:47:19 PM
I recently got a 4-disc set of historic Russian recordings of Khachaturian's symphonies, etc. (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/2532805) (Venezia/Melodiya), my first discovery of this music. How is this relevant? Well, if you find yourself wishing there was somehow another Shosty symphony or cello concerto to listen to, you may well delight in Khach's 2nd symphony and his cello concerto, both of which are heavily influenced by Shostakovich, and both excellent works in their own right. The symphony's andante makes rather quirky use of the Dies Irae.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2009, 03:26:48 AM
While I do not foresee the Eleventh gaining on the racecourse (so to speak) against other symphonies as my favorites, I find myself increasingly appreciative of its virtues.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: ChamberNut on August 31, 2009, 11:54:09 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 07, 2009, 03:26:48 AM
While I do not foresee the Eleventh gaining on the racecourse (so to speak) against other symphonies as my favorites, I find myself increasingly appreciative of its virtues.

I can see this becoming my favorite, as I'm listening to it now.  Someday.   8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on August 31, 2009, 11:56:20 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 31, 2009, 11:54:09 AM
I can see this becoming my favorite, as I'm listening to it now.  Someday.   8)

It's definitely one of mine.  How is that recording you're listening to?  I'm not familiar with that conductor at all.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: ChamberNut on August 31, 2009, 12:02:48 PM
Quote from: bhodges on August 31, 2009, 11:56:20 AM
It's definitely one of mine.  How is that recording you're listening to?  I'm not familiar with that conductor at all.

--Bruce

Hard to compare, as I think I've only heard this symphony once before (Barshai/WDR).  Kirill Karabits is a young Ukrainian conductor (32 years old), now principal conductor of the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra.  Part of the main article of the BBC "The Russians Are Coming", which talks about how so many Russian (or former Soviet nations) born conductors are now the principal conductors of several major British symphony orchestras.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 31, 2009, 12:42:36 PM
I am old enough to remember Shostakovich's death in 1975. At the time there were reports in some newspapers that he had been working on his 16th Symphony at the time of his death.  I have never heard any mention of it since.  Does anyone know if this is true?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 02, 2009, 02:44:36 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 31, 2009, 12:42:36 PM
I am old enough to remember Shostakovich's death in 1975. At the time there were reports in some newspapers that he had been working on his 16th Symphony at the time of his death.  I have never heard any mention of it since.  Does anyone know if this is true?

I was 3 in 1975... Vandermolen, not much is known afaics. I've asked for the Symphony No. 16 at GMG here. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,12442.0.html)...

Hey. Is that Dmitri in the new Pixar movie "Up"? ;)

(http://larryfire.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/pixar_up.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 02, 2009, 05:52:06 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on September 02, 2009, 02:44:36 AM
I was 3 in 1975... Vandermolen, not much is known afaics. I've asked for the Symphony No. 16 at GMG here. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,12442.0.html)...

Hey. Is that Dmitri in the new Pixar movie "Up"? ;)

(http://larryfire.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/pixar_up.jpg)

Thank you! You were 3 in 1975 - I was 20. I am now so old that I had forgot that I had actually responded to your original thread  ::)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 17, 2009, 08:14:43 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 17, 2009, 07:38:58 AM
Where have you and Bogey been living the past 15 years? In a bubble? You have never seen or heard of this recording?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PMTSR849L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

If you buy one recording a decade I hope it is this one. The recording of the Leningrad not only is the greatest recording of this piece on record (and I have 10 plus versions of this work), it is one of the greatest recordings of anything by anyone.

Which ten?  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on September 17, 2009, 08:50:48 AM
See I would just call that recording (Bernstein/CSO #7) pretty good, instead of the best ever of anything.  Kondrashin's recording is much better performance-wise, and Barshai is just as good as the Bernstein.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 17, 2009, 08:54:54 AM
Similarly, Davey, I like it very well, but I don't know that I'd quite call it first in its class.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 17, 2009, 09:26:53 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 17, 2009, 08:14:43 AM
Which ten?  :)
I have to check my shelf but some of them I can think of:

Lenny/NYPO
Barshai/WDR/Brilliant
M. Shostakovich/Prague SO/Supraphon
Kitayenko/WDR
Jansons/St. Petersburg PO/EMI
Temirkanov/St. Petersburg PO/RCA
Masur/NYPO/Teldec
Rozhdestvensky/Moscow RSO/Russian disc
Neumann/Czech PO/Supraphon
Ancerl/Czech PO/Supraphon

I counted 10 (11 if you add Lenny/CSO).

To me Lenny just plays the closing pages with those walls and walls of bras swells like nobody else.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 17, 2009, 09:34:36 AM
Which two do you like the least, and why?  And thank you for your answer and indulgence.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 17, 2009, 10:03:18 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 17, 2009, 09:34:36 AM
Which two do you like the least, and why?  And thank you for your answer and indulgence.
The least? I can't really say, they are all good in their own ways. But the ones that didn't really interest me as much as the others are probably Jansons and Temirkanov, which even surprises me since they are both with the St. Petersburg/Leningrad PO. Maybe it's the expectations, I expected the LPO under Jansons and Temirkanov to sound like the LPO under Mravinsky, the same kind of frightening spectrum of sounds from the faintest ppp to the loudest fff and the same frenzy everytime there is a stringendo. Instead what I got from Jansons and Temirkanov is terrific playing, razor-sharp ensemble, but no real SOUL behind the music. If you like this approach you are better off with Barshai or Kitayenko, where the WDR play every bit as well as it's more famous Russian counterpart.

I also think the Masur is a terrific performance. THe raw, edgy sound of the NYPO fits this music perfectly, more so than the rather smooth and mellow sounding WDR. I am a bit undecided on the M. Shostakovich. The Prague players have a rather unique sound, a bit wobbly at times, that tend to be an acquired taste. Right now I am not in the taste for it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 17, 2009, 10:10:43 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 17, 2009, 10:03:18 AM
The least? I can't really say, they are all good in their own ways.

I'm good with that.  There probably are dud recordings out there, but I do genuinely enjoy all of the half-a-dozen (maybe) Leningrads I have got.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on September 17, 2009, 10:14:27 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 17, 2009, 09:26:53 AM


To me Lenny just plays the closing pages with those walls and walls of bras swells like nobody else.


I'm having problems picturing "walls of bras". Not sure whether that was DSCH's intention. Kinda like this?

(http://www.sarahlouisedesigns.co.uk/images/favours/mini_bras_large.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 17, 2009, 10:15:33 AM
Not enough swell, Herman.

(Had to; just had to, I tell ya.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 17, 2009, 10:15:58 AM
I almost forget, there is one that I failed to mentioned that is a complete dud - Gergiev. This one is just a complete disaster from rather murky balance to no real concept of the work. It sounds like Solti conducting Wagner, sections of music just glossed over aiming for the few orchestral moments where you can just milk it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 17, 2009, 10:17:00 AM
Quote from: Herman on September 17, 2009, 10:14:27 AM
I'm having problems picturing "walls of bras". Not sure whether that was DSCH's intention. Kinda like this?

(http://www.sarahlouisedesigns.co.uk/images/favours/mini_bras_large.jpg)

Huh huh, I mean't brass. But I do like bras better, especially what is usually underneath them ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 17, 2009, 10:17:24 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 17, 2009, 10:15:58 AM
I almost forget, there is one that I failed to mentioned that is a complete dud - Gergiev. This one is just a complete disaster from rather murky balance to no real concept of the work. It sounds like Solti conducting Wagner, sections of music just glossed over aiming for the few orchestral moments where you can just milk it.

Gosh, I've got that one, but I honestly don't recall listening to it . . . .

(The performance I heard him lead the Mariinka in, in Worcester's Mechanics Hall, was utterly magnificent, though.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 17, 2009, 10:18:24 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 17, 2009, 10:17:00 AM
Huh huh, I mean't brass. But I do like bras better, especially what is usually underneath them ;D

I did think Herman's jest bras-ingly funny/
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: ChamberNut on September 17, 2009, 10:20:52 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 17, 2009, 10:17:00 AM
But I do like bras better, especially what is usually underneath them ;D

What he said.  ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tahar Mouslim on September 17, 2009, 11:00:54 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 17, 2009, 10:03:18 AM
The least? I can't really say, they are all good in their own ways. But the ones that didn't really interest me as much as the others are probably Jansons and Temirkanov, which even surprises me since they are both with the St. Petersburg/Leningrad PO. Maybe it's the expectations, I expected the LPO under Jansons and Temirkanov to sound like the LPO under Mravinsky, the same kind of frightening spectrum of sounds from the faintest ppp to the loudest fff and the same frenzy everytime there is a stringendo. Instead what I got from Jansons and Temirkanov is terrific playing, razor-sharp ensemble, but no real SOUL behind the music. If you like this approach you are better off with Barshai or Kitayenko, where the WDR play every bit as well as it's more famous Russian counterpart.

I also think the Masur is a terrific performance. THe raw, edgy sound of the NYPO fits this music perfectly, more so than the rather smooth and mellow sounding WDR. I am a bit undecided on the M. Shostakovich. The Prague players have a rather unique sound, a bit wobbly at times, that tend to be an acquired taste. Right now I am not in the taste for it.

What I put in bold in your message is the reason why I'm surprised you did not make mention of that

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41UYTZEdK%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

among your other 11 ones.

OK, I'm very biased as far as Mravinsky is concerned, but this is the most non complacent, implacable interpretation of this particular symphony on records that I know.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 17, 2009, 11:22:06 AM
I didn't mention that one because I don't have it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 26, 2009, 01:08:29 AM
This is as good a performance of this symphony as I have heard (I have versions by Kondrashin, Haitink, Maxim S, Gergiev, Jarvi, Previn etcetcetc)  Magnificent performance from the Netherlands RSO and Mark Wigglesworth - terrific SACD recording.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: The new erato on September 26, 2009, 01:17:44 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 17, 2009, 10:20:52 AM
What he said.  ;D
Nobody have done a bra's quintet then?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: offbeat on December 20, 2009, 08:59:19 AM
[img][http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517RvRk7IeL._SL160_AA115_.jpg/img]


First time ive heard The Gadfly and is very surprising even pastoral in tone - im amazed that someone can write something like this as well as the deeply intense works such as the string quartets and works like the 8th and 10th symphonies - nevetheless very pleasant side to his composing  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: offbeat on December 20, 2009, 09:48:58 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517RvRk7IeL._SL160_AA115_.jpg)

Now playing DSCH Suite Five Days Five Nights which is quite different - recognize bits of his symphonies here no 6 and 11 i think as well as Beethovens Ode to Joy -Very interesting cd
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: George on December 20, 2009, 11:21:16 AM
Quote from: Tahar Mouslim on September 17, 2009, 11:00:54 AM
What I put in bold in your message is the reason why I'm surprised you did not make mention of that

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41UYTZEdK%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

among your other 11 ones.

OK, I'm very biased as far as Mravinsky is concerned, but this is the most non complacent, implacable interpretation of this particular symphony on records that I know.

Mravinsky's 11th with the LPO is tremendous! I haven't heard that 7, but I bet it's great!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 30, 2009, 11:51:35 AM
Listened to Wagner's Siegfried a bit and just realized, Dmitri quoted "Siegfrieds death" in the very beginning of Mvmt. 4/ Symphony No. 15. Didn't know that...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on January 12, 2010, 04:53:05 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2010, 04:37:01 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 12, 2010, 03:56:42 PM
Landed today:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31UqRNI6A4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 4 [Includes DVD]
Haitink & the CSO
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001BBSE6Y/goodmusicguide-20)

This I have put off listening to for... well, ever since it came out. I don't know why... I liked all the other CSO Resound stuff. I didn't even know it contained a DVD. Watching it now. Finally.

I've actually been curious to hear this one for a long time (and would have popped it right in today, only I have been on such a Boulez - Webern tear . . . .)

I really liked (at first listen) the CSO account of the Opus 43 led by Previn;  and though this symphony is one of those from Haitink's London set to which I have not listened, I do like very well most of the ones I have heard.  So, the combination of orchestra and conductor has been appealing to me.


Too late today.  Will give 'er a spin tomorrow morning.
Title: "The Nose" at the Met
Post by: bhodges on March 12, 2010, 11:11:28 AM
Last night's production of The Nose was pretty amazing, and I still can't quite believe that Shostakovich was only 22 when he wrote it.  (The program observes that neither Mozart nor Rossini had completed operas of comparable stature at that age.)  The production is designed by South African artist William Kentridge, who uses a combination of live action and animation to extraordinary effect.  I don't think I've ever seen such complex animation used on a stage this large.  Many sequences are very funny, with the giant nose running all over the stage, across catwalks, etc.

Valery Gergiev conducted, magnificently, and Paulo Szot is the lead character who wakes up to find his nose missing.  Szot was excellent, making his Met debut after winning a Tony award for South Pacific.  The rest of the cast are all wonderful but too numerous too name; the opera has some 80 roles, sung by about 30 people--a huge cast.

But the real star is the score, which (at least on first hearing) uses a gigantic orchestra with Webern-like precision and lightness.  The percussion section has a field day, with lots of gongs, more uses of the ratchet than in any piece I've ever heard, and near the end, a plaintive passage for the flexatone (sounds sort of like a musical saw).   It is one of the most radical, experimental scores I've heard from this composer.  (I'll be getting the Gergiev/Mariinsky recording at some point, which came out last year and got great reviews.) 

The sold-out house (!) saved its biggest cheers for Kentridge, who came out at the very end.  Usually in a new production, the designers come out only during the opening night, but I hope they will have him come out for all the remaining performances.  He certainly deserves it.

The opera will be broadcast on the radio (and various Internet outlets) during the regular Met Saturday afternoon broadcast tomorrow, for anyone interested--although a pity that one can't experience Kentridge's amazing vision that way. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: "The Nose" at the Met
Post by: PaulR on March 15, 2010, 03:39:44 PM
Quote from: bhodges on March 12, 2010, 11:11:28 AM
Last night's production of The Nose was pretty amazing, and I still can't quite believe that Shostakovich was only 22 when he wrote it.  (The program observes that neither Mozart nor Rossini had completed operas of comparable stature at that age.)  The production is designed by South African artist William Kentridge, who uses a combination of live action and animation to extraordinary effect.  I don't think I've ever seen such complex animation used on a stage this large.  Many sequences are very funny, with the giant nose running all over the stage, across catwalks, etc.

Valery Gergiev conducted, magnificently, and Paulo Szot is the lead character who wakes up to find his nose missing.  Szot was excellent, making his Met debut after winning a Tony award for South Pacific.  The rest of the cast are all wonderful but too numerous too name; the opera has some 80 roles, sung by about 30 people--a huge cast.

But the real star is the score, which (at least on first hearing) uses a gigantic orchestra with Webern-like precision and lightness.  The percussion section has a field day, with lots of gongs, more uses of the ratchet than in any piece I've ever heard, and near the end, a plaintive passage for the flexatone (sounds sort of like a musical saw).   It is one of the most radical, experimental scores I've heard from this composer.  (I'll be getting the Gergiev/Mariinsky recording at some point, which came out last year and got great reviews.) 

The sold-out house (!) saved its biggest cheers for Kentridge, who came out at the very end.  Usually in a new production, the designers come out only during the opening night, but I hope they will have him come out for all the remaining performances.  He certainly deserves it.

The opera will be broadcast on the radio (and various Internet outlets) during the regular Met Saturday afternoon broadcast tomorrow, for anyone interested--although a pity that one can't experience Kentridge's amazing vision that way. 

--Bruce
yeah, the production was amazing.  I am glad I was able to fit the show into my schedule, even if it meant flying to NYC from Buffalo for just a total of 2 days there!  The set itself was really something.  I tried to explain it to people, but couldn't quite find the right words for it.  It was just a really fun score.

I really liked Szot.  Never heard of him before, but I thought he did a fantastic job.  What a way to debut at the Met!  But he was fantastic, but so was everyone else.  One of my favorite scenes was the ending declaration of the plot with the 3 people.  The whole production was well done.

I really hope this comes out on DVD someday.  I would definitely buy it, maybe even pre-order it!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on April 05, 2010, 05:58:47 AM

On boogers, Shostakovich, and dangerous first impressions: (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1875)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1875 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1875)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 05, 2010, 07:01:12 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 05, 2010, 05:58:47 AM
On boogers, Shostakovich, and dangerous first impressions: (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1875)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1875 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1875)

Great review of the Mandelring recording, Jens...and appropriate this week since the Mandelbäume are in bloom in the Quartet's hometown (Neustadt) and surrounding area. I already have the Borodin, Fitzwilliam and Rubio but the Mandelring cycle is tempting.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on April 05, 2010, 11:55:44 AM
A plug here for the Leonard Slatkin performances here (on RCA). I find that I play his version of Symphony No 8 more than any other recording (I have quite a few) - it may not be as dramatic as Mravinsky etc but I think that it is beautifully played and the very moving end section is very affecting - I have also just found a second hand copy of Slatkin's St Louis version of Symphony No 4, which on initial listening seems to be just as good. Like Andre Previn I find that, these days, Slatkin is rather underrated (his Vaughan Williams cycle for example).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on April 05, 2010, 08:07:54 PM
Regarding the Borodin Quartet, there is this Virgin double disc with five quartets on it.  What do you call a third of a cycle?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31WF5WCRB6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
2, 3, 7, 8 and 12 are the quartets involved here.  These recordings were made in London in 1990, so they are independent of the full Borodin cycles. (One Amazon review mentions a somewhat different lineup from the one that recorded the full set.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on April 05, 2010, 11:38:27 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on April 05, 2010, 08:07:54 PM
Regarding the Borodin Quartet, there is this Virgin double disc with five quartets on it.  What do you call a third of a cycle?

Tricycle?

Don't actually like those late recordings all that much.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on April 21, 2010, 08:19:54 PM
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/berlinclassics0020642bc.jpg)
Renovated and repainted my living room yesterday. A good day, because currently I haven't got much time for lengthy music very often.... A lot of time for listening to the 8th Symphony properly. I listened to it twice. This time it really worked for me, especially the long first movement. Why did it work? It brought me to tears for a moment :) I was a bit disappointed by the final movement, but this is still a first impression.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scarpia on May 11, 2010, 08:01:45 AM
Listened to the first two movements of Shostakovich's sole viola sonata. 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QG8MG8EVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The recording by Bashmet is apparently out of print.

A very interesting piece, Shostakovich's last complete work.  The first movement is sort of sparse and bleak, the second Shostakovich's trademark sarcasm.  I put off the third movement, which is apparently a 17 minute dirge that I was not ready to take.  Interesting use of the sonority of the viola throughout.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: The new erato on May 11, 2010, 03:06:19 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 11, 2010, 08:01:45 AM
Listened to the first two movements of Shostakovich's sole viola sonata. 
The recording by Bashmet is apparently out of print.


It's on Regis:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/RRC1128.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scarpia on May 11, 2010, 03:19:04 PM
Quote from: erato on May 11, 2010, 03:06:19 PM
It's on Regis:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/RRC1128.jpg)

Not the same recording, and I have a general preference for non-Richter recordings.   There is another interesting recording where the violin and viola sonatas have been transformed in to concertos (effectively) by transcribing the piano part for orchestra.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ie8Abe95L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Have not heard that one.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scarpia on May 11, 2010, 04:03:01 PM
Quote from: James on May 11, 2010, 03:32:13 PM
this ought to be good ... so .. what's your problem with Richter's musicianship?

Nothing in particular, the few recordings of his that I had didn't grab me.  Most recently I listened to his recordings of Schumann solo piano music, and it was too smooth.  The same music seemed more engaging when performed by Pollini.

Besides that, usually the Richter recordings are made at a concert at an Italian Railway station somewhere.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on July 01, 2010, 08:41:50 PM
On Re-hearing the Tenth after 365 Days

I've just finished listening to Shostakovich's Tenth Symphony. The last time I heard it was on June 30, 2009, on my iPod, in the car on my family's return from a road trip out to Utah and the Grand Canyon. Location: somewhere on Interstate 10 in rural west Texas. Over the course of the road trip I had heard the Tenth twice (the other time was in Albuquerque), the Fifth several times in different performances, and Khachaturian's Cello Concerto on six (!) occasions. I was all Russianed out.

Then for a while I just didn't listen to the Tenth. It wasn't intentional; it just slipped the mind. I went to college in the fall and planned to give it a play to celebrate going back, but didn't have the time. Eventually I decided to save it for a special occasion. By December I decided to just wait until June 30 rolled around again. June 30 came. I listened to a CD for MusicWeb and went to bed early. Finally carved out an hour for the Tenth tonight, starring Herbert von Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra.

I should note that my familiarity with the symphony is purely from listening; I have never seen a score.

Impressions

First of all, how'd I go this long without listening to one of my favorite pieces? I just wanted to curl up in every minute of it ... thought a few times that I could just as easily have listened to it every day for a year. (This is, of course, not actually true.) This felt like Hemingway on his first day back from a year of shaving. Or something.

The Tenth Symphony is the culmination of the "Russian Romantic" symphonic tradition; it is the apotheosis of same. Had Rachmaninov, Lyapunov, Glazunov and Bortkiewicz seen it to its grave? No, they'd merely set up this fearsome volley. This symphony is, like Tchaikovsky's Fifth or Rachmaninov's Second (much more like the latter), based entirely on a simple motif stated at the outset. The first movement is built entirely on that motif, and I was really impressed at how much of the first seven to eight minutes of the symphony Shostakovich was able to repeat at and after the climax. Except for the interjection of the flute tune at 6:00, which serves as a catalyst for the huge central upheaval and provides just a tiny bit of contrast, this movement is really just one huge arc repeated, the second statement different enough from the first to make the double-arc combine for one.

A joke I'd been repeating during my Year of No Tenth was, "There oughta be a law of orchestration stating that the piccolo is expressly prohibited unless you are Shostakovich." It grew out of my frustration at how lesser composers fail to understand how to use the instrument: an unnecessary piccolo line, only about four seconds long, tarnishes the otherwise glorious opening movement Atterberg's Eighth; Johann Strauss' piccolos drive me up the wall just as much as his gift for melodies makes me sigh with pleasure; the piccolo at the end of Dvorak's Second has a great musical idea but is just too lightweight to penetrate the texture.

There are, of course, good uses of the piccolo. The two-note part in the storm of Beethoven's Sixth. Schulhoff's Concertino. Dorman's Piccolo Concerto. And all the other examples I can think of, all of them, are in Shostakovich. The Fifth. The Ninth. Others I am forgetting at the moment. And then there's the end of the first movement here. I Googled "best piccolo solo" and all the results said, "Stars and Stripes Forever." Undoubtedly a contender. I GMG-searched for "best piccolo solo" and there weren't any results. Now the Tenth is the first. Except, of course, that it's a piccolo duo, isn't it? And it is so darn good!

I was surprised by the third movement. Basically, it has three themes, the opening string tune (which is exactly the same theme as that of the second movement, which is in turn just the opening motif of the first movement extended a bit - this is one of the most tightly argued symphonies since Beethoven's Fifth, despite its length), the DSCH theme, and that weird foreign horn call. What surprised me about this movement, coming back after a year, is that it basically just alternates between the three in whatever order it pleases, and there's basically nothing else to it. It just bounces from motif to motif the whole time and yet rather than sounding senseless or academic or hopelessly confused, it's remarkably cohesive. I was also surprised and impressed to hear the first minute of the symphony replayed almost verbatim and as originally orchestrated, providing the base line to stuff which is easier to notice. Wow!

In Rachmaninov's Symphony No 2, the finale is the first movement to feature a melody that's not based on stair-step ascending intervals: that huge sweeping romantic Hollywood tune that breaks the symphony's mold and carries it over the threshold to a happy ending. Shostakovich's Tenth pre-empts this somewhat by introducing DSCH and the horn call into the third movement - but DSCH is the real challenger to the symphony's motto, and of course it wins. He's dancing on Stalin's grave, isn't he? Emphasis on dancing; this might be the most conventional of the movements, even down to the Return of the Scary Opening Motif right before the final coda (think Tchaikovsky Four). But the Scary Opening Motif has already been defeated: it is in that melancholy, wistful sigh of the (muted?) violins which serves as centerpiece to the introduction's reprise. And then, having laid the opening motif to rest once and for all, DSCH gets up and dances on the grave.

Conclusion

I chose Karajan because the final bars on his recording sound rich and full and gloriously final; on Barshai, they seem to just taper up into the bright acoustic. The flip side of the coin is that Barshai's clarinet solo in mvt. I is much more darkly brooding. I've got Skrowaczewski, too, but don't remember it very well.

All in all, as glorious an experience as it ever was, and I'm glad this symphony is back in my listening. I would not hesitate to rank it one of the great symphonies of all time, alongside contenders like Beethoven 5 and Brahms 4. It is, to my mind, surely not just a great symphony by a Russian, but the great triumph of the fate-obsessed, heart-on-sleeve Russian symphonic tradition which began with Rubinstein and Balakirev, achieved concert-hall popularity with Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov, and reached its raison d'être in 1953, when a composer turned to this seemingly burnt-out form to create some of his most personal music - and some of his most explicitly Russian outrage against the climate in which he was trapped.

I don't particularly find it useful to see Shostakovich's symphonies as reactions to, or depictions of, or portraits of, Communism; when I first began to get "into" the Tenth, it was cool to imagine the scherzo as "Stalin himself," or the third movement as "Shostakovich versus the oppressors." Now that interpretation is not as interesting as it had been. The only serious interest it has for me is its implications for the argument that this was the inevitable product of a flexible and tortured artistic genius, and for the hope, maybe the delusion, that had Shostakovich been given free rein to write whatever he wanted wherever he wanted, such a masterwork as this would not have been lost.

(http://www.classicalmusicclubtoronto.org/shostakovich_1975_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scarpia on July 01, 2010, 09:12:45 PM
Karajan recorded it twice, in the 60's and in the 80's.  Which one are you listening to?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 01, 2010, 09:12:55 PM
I seldom listen to Shostakovich. Not out of personal dislike or anything, because he composed some very good music, but I just don't find myself connecting to his music as much as I do other composers.


That said, I do enjoy Symphonies Nos. 4, 7, and 10 the most of his symphonies. I also really enjoyed "Violin Concerto No. 1" and "Piano Concerto No. 1."


Other than these works, I'm just not moved by his sound-world or what it is he's trying to convey in his music. Given his history, it's hard know how really felt, but I know this is just my own opinion and obviously doesn't reflect how other's feel about his music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 01, 2010, 10:48:28 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 01, 2010, 08:41:50 PM
I would not hesitate to rank it one of the great symphonies of all time, alongside contenders like Beethoven 5 and Brahms 4.

I agree.

QuoteI don't particularly find it useful to see Shostakovich's symphonies as reactions to, or depictions of, or portraits of, Communism; when I first began to get "into" the Tenth, it was cool to imagine the scherzo as "Stalin himself," or the third movement as "Shostakovich versus the oppressors." Now that interpretation is not as interesting as it had been.

I agree with this too. I would modify it by saying that of course DSCH's symphonies have something to do with the circumstances he found himself in, but their relation to those circumstances is not simple or straightforward. (Volkov and Ian MacDonald deserve a lot of the blame for this.) The 10th Symphony is great as a piece of music - whether Stalin is reflected in it, or not, has no bearing on this.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on July 02, 2010, 09:57:59 AM
Thanks for those comments, Velimir. We're in agreement. :)

Quote from: Scarpia on July 01, 2010, 09:12:45 PM
Karajan recorded it twice, in the 60's and in the 80's.  Which one are you listening to?

The 1980s recording.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on July 05, 2010, 11:38:10 AM
Brian, your review makes me wish to listen to the tenth again. It's the Karajan Gold one, right? I just listened to #10 twice and I realized it's got potential for me; but still did not get into it. Oh and there's just so few time for music listening at the moment :(
As of now, I spent much more time on Symphony No. 15, 1 and 8 (all Sanderling/Berlin SO) - my favourite pieces of the composer, in exactly that order.

@Mirror Image: If you can't love #15, you're lost. OK I admit, this is maybe quite subjective ;) You need to love the darkness. And it must be the Sanderling/BSO. Sloooow.

EDIT: Oh, and I've never listened to Brahms #4!?! Well, I'm 39, so maybe there'll be some time left.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on July 28, 2010, 11:15:12 AM
TTT

Quote from: Wurstwasser on July 05, 2010, 11:38:10 AM
EDIT: Oh, and I've never listened to Brahms #4!?! Well, I'm 39, so maybe there'll be some time left.

All right, your assignment: Listen to the Brahms Fourth before the end of August.

You can do it!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 13, 2010, 10:44:24 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 13, 2010, 09:18:18 AM
My Shosta collection:

Haitink Complete Decca Symphonies
Karajan 10
Bernstein 5 and 9
Fitzwilliam SQs
I've got the Fugues but I can't remember who the heck it is.

A couple of incidental, but good, performances of the symphonies (Barshai)

I'm really off topic now, because I'm listening to Whitesnake's In the Heart of the City. Sorry!

Andy, have you listened to the Fourteenth Symphony in the Haitink set?

The passacaglia fourth movement of the Eighth Symphony?

Apart from wishing to draw your attention to these
: ) . . .

. . . may I suggest the Piano Quintet in g minor, Opus 57; Piano Trio № 2 in e minor, Opus 67; and the Blok Romances for soprano & piano trio, Opus 127.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: George on September 13, 2010, 10:49:29 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 13, 2010, 10:44:24 AM. . . may I suggest the Piano Quintet in g minor, Opus 57; Piano Trio № 2 in e minor, Opus 67...

And may I second these splendid recommendations?

Richter/Borodins for the first and Beaux Arts Trio for the second.  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: AndyD. on September 13, 2010, 11:05:31 AM
Okay, I'm being ganged up on  :).

I can replay, and listen attentively.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 13, 2010, 11:08:16 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 13, 2010, 11:05:31 AM
Okay, I'm being ganged up on  :)

Nah, we're all mates!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scarpia on September 13, 2010, 11:08:48 AM
A work by Shostakovich that has been haunting me is the viola sonata.   The first movement in particular has a reserved, dark melodic invention that I keep coming back to over and over again.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 13, 2010, 11:10:49 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 13, 2010, 11:08:48 AM
A work by Shostakovich that has been haunting me is the viola sonata.   The first movement in particular has a reserved, dark melodic invention that I keep coming back to over and over again.

Now that I've finished writing my own (viola sonata), I am keen to revisit the Shostakovich Opus 147.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on September 13, 2010, 12:41:36 PM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 13, 2010, 11:05:31 AM
Okay, I'm being ganged up on  :).

I can replay, and listen attentively.

I strongly recommend anyone who enjoys Shostakovich's music but especially for those who maybe are not and are looking for a deeper understanding, to watch this DVD, called Sonata for Viola.  FYI, it really has nothing to do with his Viola Sonata.

(http://home.comcast.net/~flickhead/ShostakovichAA1.jpg)

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: AndyD. on September 13, 2010, 02:12:14 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 13, 2010, 11:10:49 AM
Now that I've finished writing my own (viola sonata), I am keen to revisit the Shostakovich Opus 147.


I'm keen on your sonata, or would like to be!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 15, 2010, 10:34:00 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 28, 2010, 11:15:12 AM
TTT

All right, your assignment: Listen to the Brahms Fourth before the end of August.

You can do it!
I didn't. Real life demanded my full attention. Brahms 4 is still on my schedule. Detention?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on September 15, 2010, 11:29:04 AM
No, revised due date.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Guido on September 15, 2010, 01:59:57 PM
Just listened to the viola sonata op.147 for the first time. How has this passed me by all these years? Absolutely magnificent. One constantly feels whilst listening for the first time that one is in the presence of a true masterpiece - the same feeling I got when listening to Sibelius 7, Bruckner 9 and Janacek's string quartets for the first time.

Is it his finest chamber work? Seems like it could be...

I must play it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scarpia on September 15, 2010, 02:06:14 PM
Quote from: Guido on September 15, 2010, 01:59:57 PMI must play it.

On your pre-CBS Stratocaster and Marshall stack, or will you use a viola?   8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Guido on September 15, 2010, 02:08:50 PM
It will have to be on a cello I'm afraid... but I'll try and play it as much in the right register as possible, I promise.  :-*
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scarpia on September 15, 2010, 02:15:16 PM
Quote from: Guido on September 15, 2010, 02:08:50 PM
It will have to be on a cello I'm afraid... but I'll try and play it as much in the right register as possible, I promise.  :-*

AndyD will be disappointed.   :(
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 15, 2010, 02:18:03 PM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on July 05, 2010, 11:38:10 AM
@Mirror Image: If you can't love #15, you're lost. OK I admit, this is maybe quite subjective ;) You need to love the darkness. And it must be the Sanderling/BSO. Sloooow.

I agree. Sanderling is unique in this symphony--insanely dark. But his Cleveland peformance is even better...and even slower!

Cleveland   8:48  16:19  5:11  20:23

Berlin SO    8:29  15:21  5:06  19:41

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: AndyD. on September 16, 2010, 06:57:26 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 15, 2010, 02:15:16 PM
AndyD will be disappointed.   :(


;D

No way! ROCK ON (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i97/Apostate_2006/icon_super.gif)!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 17, 2010, 08:28:06 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 15, 2010, 02:18:03 PMI agree. Sanderling is unique in this symphony--insanely dark. But his Cleveland peformance is even better...and even slower!
Yes, in the Berlin recording the percussive ending is played much faster. I don't know the reason why - I always preferred the Berlin over Cleveland performance. Need to give it a try again. I maybe listened to Berlin 30 times and 3 times Cleveland. The quality of the Cleveland is better. Maybe the best #15 ever  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on November 16, 2010, 10:14:14 AM
From the first draft of my MusicWeb review of Vasily Petrenko's Tenth Symphony, this bit of perhaps entertaining prose:

QuoteOne more note. Shostakovich is famous for his emotionally ambiguous endings, but this, in my opinion, is not one of them. The Tenth Symphony, written and premiered at last after the death of Stalin, is capped off by Shostakovich's victory dance on the grave of his oppressor. In these final bars, in this performance, I can hear the composer shouting with a wild joy: You thought you had me caged up; you thought you could control what music I write; you thought you could intimidate a generation of creative minds by threatening them with labour and torture and death; but you thought wrong. The creative spirit always wins! The individual always wins! Art always wins!

The highest praise I can lavish upon this new Naxos release is that I hadn't quite thought of the Tenth Symphony that way before. It was one of my favorite symphonies, but Vasily Petrenko and the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic still managed to find within it something entirely new. This symphony isn't about Stalin. It isn't about the totalitarian Soviet state. It's about anybody who needs to be told, or who needs to be reassured: Art always wins.

Feedback is welcome. Am I making sense? Am I off-base?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on November 16, 2010, 10:50:34 AM
Well, I think you are right in that, its nervous start (and the occasional stern interpolation) notwithstanding, the last movement of the Tenth does close on an inarguably cheerful note.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scarpia on November 16, 2010, 10:57:47 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 16, 2010, 10:14:14 AMFeedback is welcome. Am I making sense? Am I off-base?
End of the 10th, that's the part where the DSCH theme gets hammered out by the timpani while the rest of the orchestra makes an uproarious commotion.   You had to wait for the Petrenko recording to decide that passage is up-beat?  What have you been listening to, for god' sake.  Is there a Klemperer recording of Shostakovich 10 that I don't know about.   ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on November 16, 2010, 11:15:13 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 16, 2010, 10:57:47 AM
End of the 10th, that's the part where the DSCH theme gets hammered out by the timpani while the rest of the orchestra makes an uproarious commotion.   You had to wait for the Petrenko recording to decide that passage is up-beat?  What have you been listening to, for god' sake.  Is there a Klemperer recording of Shostakovich 10 that I don't know about.   ;D
;D  ;D  ;D

and as to advice: tone it down just a notch. enthusiasm is nice, but we can see your tail wagging, through the lines.  ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on November 16, 2010, 11:34:04 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 16, 2010, 10:57:47 AM
End of the 10th, that's the part where the DSCH theme gets hammered out by the timpani while the rest of the orchestra makes an uproarious commotion.   You had to wait for the Petrenko recording to decide that passage is up-beat?  What have you been listening to, for god' sake.  Is there a Klemperer recording of Shostakovich 10 that I don't know about.   ;D

Hah! If I give the impression that I never knew it was a happy ending before, I will indeed change it, because my reaction was definitely more subtle than that (one knows it's a happy ending from the first time one listens, unless one is Volkov perhaps...).

On the other hand, Jens, my tail is wagging. I wouldn't put it in those words, because I don't have any anatomical irregularities of that scope, but this does come at the end of a review the theme of which is essentially, "Why the heck did I love this CD so much?" Luckily I have a couple of answers that aren't wishy-washy purple prose. A couple. Sleep usually cures my most egregious flights of verbal fancy, so over my self-imposed week of editing time I'll be in a position to delete the stuff that's embarrassing and leave only that which I know I can defend. ;)

My most praise-y reviews take the longest to submit for that reason. I want to be sure that reasons for my enthusiasm, hard and fast and well-communicated reasons, are very plain to the reader. Thus my 2010 "CD of the year (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Nov10/Gershwin_Grofe_HMU907492.htm)" pick received a wait of 4 months and a week between first listen and review submission, and my '09 CD of the year had to wait a few days shy of 5 months. Unfortunately, that review fell through the MusicWeb cracks; maybe they were intimidated by the admittedly excessive length.

EDIT: Completely reversed my response to jlaurson
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: not edward on November 17, 2010, 05:37:06 AM
Quote from: James on November 16, 2010, 06:47:40 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GLdTscuVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
This is probably one of the glaring holes in my CD collection. Yet it's a disc I don't see mentioned often--opinions on it?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on November 17, 2010, 05:48:02 AM
Well, the first vn cto is really the Opus 77, of course ; )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 17, 2010, 07:39:38 AM
Quote from: edward on November 17, 2010, 05:37:06 AM
This is probably one of the glaring holes in my CD collection. Yet it's a disc I don't see mentioned often--opinions on it?

I have that disk and enjoy it both as a testament to the music and as an historical document. The playing is first rate, and the sense of occasion is there in both concerts. If it ain't a million dollars (in a manner of saying), then it's worth the investment.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on November 17, 2010, 07:42:31 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 17, 2010, 07:39:38 AM
I have that disk and enjoy it both as a testament to the music and as an historical document. The playing is first rate, and the sense of occasion is there in both concerts. If it ain't a million dollars (in a manner of saying), then it's worth the investment.  :)

I am so pleased to have my expectations affirmed, Gurn.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: George on November 17, 2010, 02:10:46 PM
Quote from: edward on November 17, 2010, 05:37:06 AM
This is probably one of the glaring holes in my CD collection. Yet it's a disc I don't see mentioned often--opinions on it?

One of the crown jewels of my collection.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on November 18, 2010, 05:02:37 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 17, 2010, 07:39:38 AM
I have that disk and enjoy it both as a testament to the music and as an historical document. The playing is first rate, and the sense of occasion is there in both concerts. If it ain't a million dollars (in a manner of saying), then it's worth the investment.  :)

8)

Incidentally, the very last piece in the 10-CD Kondrashin 'spectacles' box is the Vn Cto № 2, again played by the violinist for whom it was written: Oistrakh. Recorded in 1967.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on November 18, 2010, 05:52:51 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 18, 2010, 05:02:37 AM
Incidentally, the very last piece in the 10-CD Kondrashin 'spectacles' box is the Vn Cto № 2, again played by the violinist for whom it was written: Oistrakh. Recorded in 1967.

Hey... say, do you know if this is in the Koran edition on aulos as well?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on November 18, 2010, 05:58:19 AM
Dunno.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Opus106 on November 18, 2010, 07:33:12 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 18, 2010, 05:52:51 AM
Hey... say, do you know if this is in the Koran edition on aulos as well?

No, it doesn't. It's a 10-CD set... spectacles is 11. (BTW, Koran edition?)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on November 18, 2010, 07:41:11 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 18, 2010, 07:33:12 AM
No, it doesn't. It's a 10-CD set... spectacles is 11. (BTW, Koran edition?)

Sorry. The Islamists got to me. I meant Korean, of course.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scarpia on November 18, 2010, 11:07:59 AM
Been listening to Shostakovich's viola sonata again recently.  The first two movements are amazing.  The first expecially, has the most astonishing development of a few melodic cells, and such a sustained mood of bemused irony, a gem.  I've never been able to get through the third, final movement without my attention drifting off.   There's the paraphrase of the Moonlight sonata, and I find myself thinking about whether the car needs an oil change.   :(
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on November 19, 2010, 02:44:30 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 18, 2010, 07:33:12 AMNo, it doesn't. It's a 10-CD set... spectacles is 11. (BTW, Koran edition?)
CD11 is South Koran then.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on November 19, 2010, 10:11:28 AM
Just saw this fascinating bit of news from Musical America:

"Orango, a long lost opera by Shostakovich, is scheduled to have its world premiere, in concert, in December 2011 by Esa-Pekka Salonen and the Los Angeles Philharmonic. The reconstructed prologue, about 40 minutes long, concerns a half-man, half-ape and is said to be "blisteringly satirical," according to the Los Angeles Times. Peter Sellars will direct the work, which has been reconstructed and orchestrated from the composer's piano sketches by British composer Gerard McBurney at the request of the Russian composer's widow. The opera dates to 1932 and was written with librettists Alexei Tolstoy and Alexander Starchakov, apparently in the midst of the composer's work on Lady MacBeth of the Mtsensk District."

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on November 19, 2010, 02:00:34 PM
Quote from: bhodges on November 19, 2010, 10:11:28 AM
Just saw this fascinating bit of news from Musical America:

"Orango, a long lost opera by Shostakovich, is scheduled to have its world premiere, in concert, in December 2011 by Esa-Pekka Salonen and the Los Angeles Philharmonic. The reconstructed prologue, about 40 minutes long, concerns a half-man, half-ape and is said to be "blisteringly satirical," according to the Los Angeles Times. Peter Sellars will direct the work, which has been reconstructed and orchestrated from the composer's piano sketches by British composer Gerard McBurney at the request of the Russian composer's widow. The opera dates to 1932 and was written with librettists Alexei Tolstoy and Alexander Starchakov, apparently in the midst of the composer's work on Lady MacBeth of the Mtsensk District."

--Bruce

Very interesting, thanks for letting us know Bruce!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha: SQ 15
Post by: snyprrr on November 19, 2010, 02:48:20 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 07, 2009, 09:38:33 PM
Can anyone wax poetic over any really really special recordings of SQ No.15?

I'm listening to Fitzwilliam now, and I'm not really taken: sounds kind of unsure (which is understandable). I've had "most" of the SQ sets out there (of the old guard), but I sold the Emerson last year (the last to go) to start fresh. So now I have zero Shosty SQs, and I really just want the most monumental No.15 I can find (I hope it's not the Emerson, otherwise I probably should have kept it!: they WERE pretty good, actually).

I remember the Brodsky disc, "End Games", with DSCH 15 and LvB 16, an interesting concept, but I don't remember the performance. One that I haven't heard is the Sony disc with Yo-Yo Ma (w/ Gubaidulina "Rejoice"). Perhaps that's a good one? Are there any other "mix" cds with only No.15?

I also seem to recall enjoying the Shostakovich Qrt./Olympia in the late SQs.

I got the Ma/Kremer/Kashkashian SQ 15 (Sony), with the Gubaidulina. I have nothing to compare with, but it's ok. I don't know how special it is. I thought the...eh, what's the use? ::) ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: The new erato on November 20, 2010, 12:20:18 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 18, 2010, 11:07:59 AM
Been listening to Shostakovich's viola sonata again recently.  The first two movements are amazing.  The first expecially, has the most astonishing development of a few melodic cells, and such a sustained mood of bemused irony, a gem.  I've never been able to get through the third, final movement without my attention drifting off.   There's the paraphrase of the Moonlight sonata, and I find myself thinking about whether the car needs an oil change.   :(
Then I suggest you change the oil and listen again. ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 21, 2010, 01:27:30 AM
The film music for Michurin has been a great new discovery for me - a noble, somewhat uncharacteristic piece.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Opus106 on November 23, 2010, 07:06:26 AM
Which recording, in your opinion, contains the wildest, all-Hell-breaking-loose ending of the 11th symphony? (Thanks in advance.)
Title: Sibelius quotes!
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 09, 2010, 05:47:16 AM
Symphony No. 11, first Adagio: Did you recognize the references to/quote of Sibelius' "In Memoriam"? "In Memoriam" is a very recommendable funeral march, Sibelius' only one to my knowledge. The linked Sibelius Youtube clip is the non revised version, which is imho not as good as the revised one.

Compare:
Sibelius: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwfhc92nISU#t=55s
Shosta: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INE4_7wbfV4#t=188s

Quote from: Opus106 on November 23, 2010, 07:06:26 AMWhich recording, in your opinion, contains the wildest, all-Hell-breaking-loose ending of the 11th symphony? (Thanks in advance.)
Not much experience with #11, sorry. My choice is Haitink/RCO, I prefer it over Janssons (from the cycle). Least I can say about Haitink: both wild scenes (endings of mvmt2 and 4) are a very powerful experience.
Title: Op 106 : Symph 11
Post by: alkan on December 09, 2010, 06:48:08 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 23, 2010, 07:06:26 AM
Which recording, in your opinion, contains the wildest, all-Hell-breaking-loose ending of the 11th symphony? (Thanks in advance.)

I have the Rostropovich/LSO Live CD, and the ending is pretty overwhelming.       The bells are REALLY loud and clear, and the side-drummer is hammering away like a maniac.      The nice thing at the very end is that despite it being a live recording, the audience are absolutely silent as the reverberation of the bells fades slowly away.    The spell is not broken .....     
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Opus106 on December 09, 2010, 07:11:17 AM
Quote from: alkan on December 09, 2010, 06:48:08 AM
I have the Rostropovich/LSO Live CD, and the ending is pretty overwhelming.       The bells are REALLY loud and clear, and the side-drummer is hammering away like a maniac.

Excellent.

QuoteThe nice thing at the very end is that despite it being a live recording, the audience are absolutely silent as the reverberation of the bells fades slowly away.    The spell is not broken .....     

Very nice added bonus, I would say. Thanks.
Title: Opus 106
Post by: alkan on December 10, 2010, 02:33:45 AM
Out of curiosity, I listened again to Rostropovich's LSO Live ending to No 11   .... it had been a while and my message yesterday was based on my old recollections ....

Basically, I still find it to be absolutely overpowering and thrilling.       The build-up is slow, deliberate, and ominous.    There is a marvellous passage with tormented winds punctuated by awesome blows on the bass drum .... really menacing.   I'd forgotten just how good the brass are when they enter into the fray .... a real powerhouse.    The xylophone is extremely clear and piercing.       The bells at the climax are actually not quite as dominant as I thought.    Nevertheless, they are perfectly clear and every so often a crucial dissonance really rings out.     It's great to follow the bells playing in the minor key against the orchestra in the major.

Two impressions dominate.    The first is Rostropovich's control and/or the LSO's discipline.     It never gets ragged or unruly ..... it rolls forward like a monstrous machine.     The second is the recording quality.     There is so much going on at the end and it is all perfectly clear and transparent.    Very impressive.

There are other highlights and climaxes   (eg in the second movement, when the revolt is crushed by the army) which are equally impressive.        I bought this CD on impulse because it was so cheap ..... what a bargain it turned out to be ....  :D
Title: Op 106, awesome endings ...
Post by: alkan on December 10, 2010, 02:50:48 AM
Whilst we are on the topic of awesome endings in Shostakovich Symphonies  (his speciality I think ....), what do you think of the ending of the 4th Symphony?     For me, this is the "creme de la creme".     Not only an apocalyptic climax, but a bizzare and unearthly epilogue.      Rather to my surprise, my favourite recording here is Simon Rattle with the Birmingham SO.    Tremendous power in the climax, followed by a truly atmospheric coda .... it's like surviving an atomic bomb ....    Kondrashin is great too, but the sound is far inferiour and this lessens the impact a little.

For the 5th, my favourite is Sanderling ..... if you have never heard it before, it is quite a shock.    The total opposite to every other recording I know.    But for me, very convincing.

Sanderling also for the end of the 15th ..... this is the most spine-chilling music I know ....
Title: Re: Op 106, awesome endings ...
Post by: jlaurson on December 10, 2010, 04:44:32 AM
Quote from: alkan on December 10, 2010, 02:50:48 AM
Whilst we are on the topic of awesome endings in Shostakovich Symphonies  (his speciality I think ....), what do you think of the ending of the 4th Symphony?     For me, this is the "creme de la creme".     Not only an apocalyptic climax, but a bizzare and unearthly epilogue. ...
QuoteFrom: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/when-heldenleben-orchestra-stops-at.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/when-heldenleben-orchestra-stops-at.html)

...Beautiful the tic-tocs into the false calm of the third movement's opening – only to proceed to delve deeply into this strange, enervating, beautifully bizarre world that makes the Mahler-influenced first movement seem perfectly normal. Bychkov managed to tighten the music's thumbscrews anew at every new start after an intermittent lull or (faux-) lyrical passage.


If someone ever felt compelled to make a film of Griffins having S&M sex, this would be the soundtrack for it: The shrieks, the brutality, the claws, the exhaustion, the climaxes and the pounding, and the relentlessness are harrowing and were particularly so in this performance. There could not be a more appropriate description of it, even if it risks being clichéd: Bychkov and orchestra were playing the hell out of the finale. But more distressing still, because of all that which preceded it, was the ensuing dreamy delicacy of the ticking-away of the symphony... the final breath and that mourning trumpet that sounded like a death knell ringing over a blood soaked battlefield on a Winter dawn ... a comment on a victory everyone knows to have been a defeat.


No wonder Shostakovich kept the symphony in the drawer until de-Stalinization was under way. It would otherwise not only have been his fourth, but also his last symphony.
Title: Re: Awesome endings
Post by: alkan on December 10, 2010, 06:42:49 AM
Thanks JLaurson.        For sure, the finale makes the imagination run riot !!

I once saw the end of the 4th symphony used as a very effective soundtrack to a documentary about the Voyager probes to Jupiter!     The quiet part, before the big climax, portrays the probe travelling through outer space for years on end.     As it finally approaches Jupiter, the climax starts.     As the wierd and never-before-seen vista's of Jupiter and its moons fill the screen, the continuous fortissimo and awesome climaxes underline a real feeling of titanic, unearthly grandeur.    Then, Voyager has flashed by Jupiter and is heading off into the depths of space (it has actually left the solar system by now) as represented by the coda.     

A totally different take to the one you mentioned, but incredibly supportive of the images.
Title: Re: Op 106, awesome endings ...
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 10, 2010, 11:20:14 AM
Quote from: alkan on December 10, 2010, 02:50:48 AMWhilst we are on the topic of awesome endings in Shostakovich Symphonies  (his speciality I think ....), what do you think of the ending of the 4th Symphony?     For me, this is the "creme de la creme".
This. Without any doubt. You may want to try Mariss Jansons with the Bavarians here. Very important is the trumpet for me, it makes me shudder. In the Jansons you can clearly hear it. There are other performances where it's too much in the background.

But it's not only greatness in the endings of the whole work, but also endings of movements. In particular I'm thinking of the ending of No. 5 mvmt I, or the second movement of 11. Both share some bizarre, unearthy elements, and fear.

And this is what we like about Shostakovich, don't we? The positive moments are not plain positive and followed by tragedy or question marks. He's not Schubert.  Or the Lento in Symphony No. 1 - was impressing for me as a live experience. Beautiful melody with the clarinet, but that warbling violins transporting uncerrtainty, great.

QuoteFor the 5th, my favourite is Sanderling ..... if you have never heard it before, it is quite a shock.    The total opposite to every other recording I know.    But for me, very convincing.
The recordings with the Berliner SO? They're all my favourites except maybe for the 8th and 10th. As for the fifth and that particular recording: IMHO the first movement starting from 13:00 pretty well sums up, what Shostakovich Symphonies are about.

QuoteSanderling also for the end of the 15th ..... this is the most spine-chilling music I know ....
Yes. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I prefer both of his recordings. Other conductors play the percussive ending way faster, but I don't like that-.

BTW did you know this reviews page? http://dschjournal.com/reviews/review_master_index.html
Title: Re: Op 106, awesome endings ...
Post by: jlaurson on December 10, 2010, 01:24:26 PM
Quote from: alkan on December 10, 2010, 02:50:48 AM


Sanderling also for the end of the 15th ..... this is the most spine-chilling music I know ....

Not shabby in the 15th: Kondrashin / Dresden!
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/dip-your-ears-no-88.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/dip-your-ears-no-88.html)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 11, 2010, 06:11:26 PM
I've come to really appreciate (and love) Shostakovich's music this year. I have really come to enjoy most of his symphonies, the concerti, the ballets, his other various orchestral works, and the string quartets (which I'm still making my way through). I recently listened to the newer Argerich recording of her performing Piano Concerto No. 1, but I really loved the inclusion of his Piano Quintet. Here is the disc:


(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_APppc0EwF1g/TCtXb9NzksI/AAAAAAAABL8/Atsi5q9QfjU/s1600/ShostakovichArgerich.png)


I'm not sure if I can pick a favorite symphony cycle I own (so far): Barshai, Haitink, Ashkenazy, Rostropovich, and Jansons. I'm really enjoying the ongoing cycle with Petrenko. This might be some of the exciting Shostakovich I've heard yet. Has anyone heard Kitajenko's cycle? I've read mixed opinions of his set.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 11, 2010, 07:09:11 PM
Quote from: tjguitar on May 22, 2007, 01:38:38 PM
I only have the 3 film CDs on Chandos.  I think it's some of his best work.


Not me. Film music was not Shostakovich's medium, although he did compose some great scores. His symphonies, concerti, and the string quartets are his most important contributions to music in my assessment.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 11, 2010, 07:18:01 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 19, 2007, 01:19:23 PM
Add Rostropovich to the debate........

Sarge


I like the Rostropvich cycle or at least so far as I've made my way through Symphonies Nos. 1-11.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on December 12, 2010, 03:46:24 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 11, 2010, 06:11:26 PM
Has anyone heard Kitajenko's cycle? I've read mixed opinions of his set.

I find it extraordinary, especially when I'm in the mood for excellent sound. But I have no "favorites" in Shostakovich, somehow...  not in the same way I do in other composers, at least.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on December 12, 2010, 04:40:39 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 11, 2010, 06:11:26 PM
I'm not sure if I can pick a favorite symphony cycle I own (so far): Barshai, Haitink, Ashkenazy, Rostropovich, and Jansons. I'm really enjoying the ongoing cycle with Petrenko. This might be some of the exciting Shostakovich I've heard yet. Has anyone heard Kitajenko's cycle? I've read mixed opinions of his set.

Haven't got many cycles, just Barshai in fact, but I've heard quite a few Tenths in the past 6 weeks and would rank them in this order:

(No 10)
=outstanding [these three can change places depending on my mood]=
1. Petrenko
2. Jansons
3. Sanderling (sound is dated, sure, but the playing superb)
=very, very good=
4. Karajan 80s
5. Barshai
=flawed in some way=
6. Skrowaczewski
7. M. Shostakovich, LSO (probably the Supraphon is better)
8. Wigglesworth (sound too low-level)
9. Kitajenko (though his third movement is in the top 3, the finale is very plain)

I recently auditioned the scherzo from Ancerl's legendary performance and, despite my love for Ancerl and high expectations, found it a major letdown. It's so fast it loses a lot of intensity. Petrenko and Karajan are best there.

Quote from: Wurstwasser on December 10, 2010, 11:20:14 AM
But it's not only greatness in the endings of the whole work, but also endings of movements. In particular I'm thinking of the ending of No. 5 mvmt I, or the second movement of 11. Both share some bizarre, unearthy elements, and fear.

The ends of the first movements of 5, 6, and 10 are all different angles on that same insight.
Title: Re: Op 106 : Symph 11
Post by: Brian on December 12, 2010, 04:43:39 AM
Quote from: alkan on December 09, 2010, 06:48:08 AM
I have the Rostropovich/LSO Live CD, and the ending is pretty overwhelming.       The bells are REALLY loud and clear, and the side-drummer is hammering away like a maniac.      The nice thing at the very end is that despite it being a live recording, the audience are absolutely silent as the reverberation of the bells fades slowly away.    The spell is not broken .....     

This didn't happen at the LPO live 11th I went to earlier this month. There was a burst of hugely enthusiastic applause, then sudden silence as everyone realized the bells were still audible. After a while everyone started clapping again, but kind of awkwardly. The sound engineers were probably kicking themselves.
Title: Re: Op 106 : Symph 11
Post by: Scarpia on December 12, 2010, 05:06:02 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 12, 2010, 04:43:39 AM
This didn't happen at the LPO live 11th I went to earlier this month. There was a burst of hugely enthusiastic applause, then sudden silence as everyone realized the bells were still audible. After a while everyone started clapping again, but kind of awkwardly. The sound engineers were probably kicking themselves.

They're going to re-record the closing at rehearsal to get an applause-free version anyway.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 12, 2010, 06:06:33 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 12, 2010, 03:46:24 AM
I find it extraordinary, especially when I'm in the mood for excellent sound. But I have no "favorites" in Shostakovich, somehow...  not in the same way I do in other composers, at least.


Thanks J., I'll check it out. I see that it's out-of-print. That's a shame.  :'(
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 12, 2010, 06:09:29 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 12, 2010, 04:40:39 AM
Haven't got many cycles, just Barshai in fact, but I've heard quite a few Tenths in the past 6 weeks and would rank them in this order:

(No 10)
=outstanding [these three can change places depending on my mood]=
1. Petrenko
2. Jansons
3. Sanderling (sound is dated, sure, but the playing superb)
=very, very good=
4. Karajan 80s
5. Barshai
=flawed in some way=
6. Skrowaczewski
7. M. Shostakovich, LSO (probably the Supraphon is better)
8. Wigglesworth (sound too low-level)
9. Kitajenko (though his third movement is in the top 3, the finale is very plain)

I recently auditioned the scherzo from Ancerl's legendary performance and, despite my love for Ancerl and high expectations, found it a major letdown. It's so fast it loses a lot of intensity. Petrenko and Karajan are best there.

The ends of the first movements of 5, 6, and 10 are all different angles on that same insight.


Yes, Brian the Petrenko 10th is amazingly good. I might be revisiting it, yet again, tonight. ;) By the way, have you heard Rattle's recording of the 10th with the Philharmonia? This one is another one of my favorites. Here's the cover (or the one I own anyway):

(http://img.maniadb.com/images/album/166/166496_1_f.jpg)


Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 12, 2010, 10:11:52 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 12, 2010, 04:40:39 AM
=flawed in some way=
6. Skrowaczewski

I have and enjoy this one. What don't you like about it? I do think the orchestra is not as powerful as it should be, but otherwise I have no objections.

QuoteI recently auditioned the scherzo from Ancerl's legendary performance and, despite my love for Ancerl and high expectations, found it a major letdown. It's so fast it loses a lot of intensity.

That was my reaction. Too fast and too light.

Also, have you heard Jarvi and Mravinsky?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 22, 2010, 03:11:43 AM
Important note: I hereby declare Kurt Sanderling to be my personal "Hero of Shostakovich". I have all the Berlin SO CDs with him conducting and I love them all (Sym. Nos. 1, 5, 6, 8, 10 and 15). I now tried No. 8 with Haitink, but happily returned to Sanderling. He's still alive BTW, heading towards 100 years of age :o.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 22, 2010, 03:34:32 AM
In regards to Sanderling and #10, any thought on how his live version compares (the one Orchestre National de France)?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2010, 06:30:25 PM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on December 22, 2010, 03:11:43 AM
Important note: I hereby declare Kurt Sanderling to be my personal "Hero of Shostakovich". I have all the Berlin SO CDs with him conducting and I love them all (Sym. Nos. 1, 5, 6, 8, 10 and 15). I now tried No. 8 with Haitink, but happily returned to Sanderling. He's still alive BTW, heading towards 100 years of age :o .


I wholeheartedly endorse this message. ;) Yes, Sanderling is a fine Shostakovich conductor. I have just recently bought his set on Berlin Classics and have been enjoying them.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2010, 11:56:11 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 01, 2010, 09:12:55 PM
I seldom listen to Shostakovich. Not out of personal dislike or anything, because he composed some very good music, but I just don't find myself connecting to his music as much as I do other composers.

That said, I do enjoy Symphonies Nos. 4, 7, and 10 the most of his symphonies. I also really enjoyed "Violin Concerto No. 1" and "Piano Concerto No. 1."

Other than these works, I'm just not moved by his sound-world or what it is he's trying to convey in his music. Given his history, it's hard to know how really felt, but I know this is just my own opinion and obviously doesn't reflect how other's feel about his music.

Looking back on this post, which I made in July, I have to say I'm quite appalled at my attitude towards Shostakovich. It's been two months and I still can't get enough of his music. What brought about this sudden change? Well, I think there were many factors that came into play: 1. I really didn't know that much about his music, what motivated it, and what it was trying to convey, 2. I didn't know much about his life in general, which I clearly understand much better now after tons of research, and 3. I really wasn't giving the music that much of a chance to grab me.

Sometimes it's better to go into music with no kind of pre-conceived notions and just let it wash over you. Once I got past my own prejudices and nagging opinion of what I thought of his music, then I could enjoy it much more and have been listening to almost nothing but his music for the past couple of months.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 24, 2010, 04:53:42 AM
MI, you describe what many of us experience, at least me. Oh well, prejudices. They prevented me listening to Brahms. Because this nasty guy insulted my little tiny Bruckner and it was a question of revenge not to listen to Brahms! A mistake... I enjoy his 4th (didn't try other symphonies of his).

Do you know DSCHs 1st symphony? It's a very remarkable first Symphony IMO. I heard it first in the concert hall and was immediately impressed. Only the final movement is still a problem for me. Don't like it as much as the first three.
I'm currently on the Shostakovich trip as well. After a lot of listens to his fifth, I'll listen more properly to the tenth. I already did, but didn't see the point yet why soo many people would prefer it over the fifth. It didn't touch me. Yet. Future will tell....

BTW, Sanderlings Berlin Orchestra produced some flaws, did you notice? There's a scary (flute?) part at the end of 5/mvmt1, the flute in the end did not produce a proper sound, but rather you hear only the blowing... Also at the bombast Sym 5/mvmt4 finale, cymbal and timpany are not synchronous. Anyway it's the best fifth for me.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 24, 2010, 08:07:56 PM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on December 24, 2010, 04:53:42 AM
MI, you describe what many of us experience, at least me. Oh well, prejudices. They prevented me listening to Brahms. Because this nasty guy insulted my little tiny Bruckner and it was a question of revenge not to listen to Brahms! A mistake... I enjoy his 4th (didn't try other symphonies of his).

Do you know DSCHs 1st symphony? It's a very remarkable first Symphony IMO. I heard it first in the concert hall and was immediately impressed. Only the final movement is still a problem for me. Don't like it as much as the first three.

I'm currently on the Shostakovich trip as well. After a lot of listens to his fifth, I'll listen more properly to the tenth. I already did, but didn't see the point yet why soo many people would prefer it over the fifth. It didn't touch me. Yet. Future will tell....

BTW, Sanderlings Berlin Orchestra produced some flaws, did you notice? There's a scary (flute?) part at the end of 5/mvmt1, the flute in the end did not produce a proper sound, but rather you hear only the blowing... Also at the bombast Sym 5/mvmt4 finale, cymbal and timpany are not synchronous. Anyway it's the best fifth for me.

Interesting post, Wurstwasser.

I've known Shostakovich's Symphony No. 1 for quite some time and I really enjoy it. It was his graduation piece and it really doesn't sound a whole lot like Shostakovich, but given it was written at such a young age that is to be expected. It certainly was a great start to one of the most compelling symphonic cycles written in the 20th Century.

Interestingly enough, I didn't pick up on any mistakes in the Sanderling set, but I'll probably go back and revisit these recordings soon. As I have stated to many people, an orchestra are going to make mistakes. It's only natural. Even world-renown orchestras make mistakes, but it may be so slight that we can't quite catch it on first hearing. I still enjoyed Sanderling's approach to Shostakovich. Very intense readings. That reading of the 8th blew my mind! I love it! :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2010, 09:03:24 AM
What do you all you Shostakovich lovers think of the ballet The Golden Age?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on December 27, 2010, 09:16:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 27, 2010, 09:03:24 AM
What do you all you Shostakovich lovers think of the ballet The Golden Age?

That Naxos recording is on my To Listen To list : )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2010, 09:45:27 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 27, 2010, 09:16:31 AM
That Naxos recording is on my To Listen To list : )


You should definitely listen to it as soon as possible, Karl. Have you heard this work before? The only other recording of this ballet in its complete form is on Chandos with Rozhdestvensky.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on December 27, 2010, 09:54:12 AM
I've only heard the Suite, nor am I sure that I've heard that complete.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2010, 10:50:01 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 27, 2010, 09:54:12 AM
I've only heard the Suite, nor am I sure that I've heard that complete.


Since you own the Serebrier, I would definitely try to listen to soon. It's a marvelous work.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 28, 2010, 06:01:09 AM
What do you think about that strange passage in Symphony No. 8, 3rd movement, Allegro? What was the intention behind it?

Video starts where I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYfliiuj4-c&feature=player_detailpage#t=194s

Humta Humta Humtataaaa ;) - Music for german "Schützenvereine"

(http://www.garstedt.de/Bilder/BilderMax/1236259220-Schuetzenverein-2003-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 28, 2010, 08:06:20 PM
Now I understood my "problem" with the 11th symphony. I love it really, but it's an unusual symphony, because all movements except the In Memoriam one are pretty much the same. They aren't really three different movements.

Another note: I also love the violent passage in the second movement, but it's really no "slaughter". The music is just militaristic there, a heavy march, but no sadness, no tragedy, no fear there.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 28, 2010, 08:11:56 PM
Quote from: Tapio on December 28, 2010, 06:01:09 AM
What do you think about that strange passage in Symphony No. 8, 3rd movement, Allegro? What was the intention behind it?

Video starts where I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYfliiuj4-c&feature=player_detailpage#t=194s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYfliiuj4-c&feature=player_detailpage#t=194s)

Humta Humta Humtataaaa ;) - Music for german "Schützenvereine"

(http://www.garstedt.de/Bilder/BilderMax/1236259220-Schuetzenverein-2003-1.jpg)

That's apart of the allure of Shostakovich's music. Musicologists, critics, musicians, classical listeners, etc. have been picking his symphonies apart from the time of their premieres to now. Nobody knows why he added this demonic waltz here or those loud almost machine-like military snare rolls there. It's all a mystery to me. But whatever his intentions with his music may have been, it's still some pretty damn fine music. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 28, 2010, 08:32:58 PM
At the first listen of the 8th, I was really surprised to hear something like that. I knew he made some really "easy" music which I didn't like (there's a lot of silly stuff with trumpets)- but I was surprised to find it in the eigth. From what I read, (western?) positive critics quickly tend to talk about a) concessions he made or b) music being ironical/hidden criticism. All in order to pull him on the politically "good" side. Which is too easy for me.

QuoteNobody knows why he added this demonic waltz here
Music question: is the above passage a Waltz? I think this 1-2 1-2 is a 2/4 - Polka? Not sure.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 28, 2010, 09:05:23 PM
Quote from: Tapio on December 28, 2010, 08:32:58 PM
At the first listen of the 8th, I was really surprised to hear something like that. I knew he made some really "easy" music which I didn't like (there's a lot of silly stuff with trumpets)- but I was surprised to find it in the eigth. From what I read, (western?) positive critics quickly tend to talk about a) concessions he made or b) music being ironical/hidden criticism. All in order to pull him on the politically "good" side. Which is too easy for me.
Music question: is the above passage a Waltz? I think this 1-2 1-2 is a 2/4 - Polka? Not sure.

Well you have to understand the circumstances in which Shostakovich composed his music under. He, as you well know, was under heavy strain from Stalin, and Symphony No. 8 was not a popular symphony and critics quickly dismissed it. If I'm not mistaken, it was banned from performance for many years due to a Soviet doctrine called the Zhdanov Doctrine. This doctrine also banned works by Khactaturian, Prokofiev, and several other Soviet composers. Anyway, I can understand it not being that popular of a work, because it is mostly very bleak in its outlook, but I honestly think it's one of his finest symphonies.

P.S. I have not idea about whether that except is a waltz or polka. I was just using the phrase demonic waltz as an expression to describe how Shostakovich can, with almost the flip of a coin, change musical styles in just one movement.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 28, 2010, 10:31:19 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 28, 2010, 09:05:23 PMP.S. I have not idea about whether that except is a waltz or polka. I was just using the phrase demonic waltz as an expression to describe how Shostakovich can, with almost the flip of a coin, change musical styles in just one movement.
I see. BTW, the Wikipedia S8 article says: "It [the 3rd mvmt.] features an interesting quote of the Sabre Dance from Aram Khachaturian, composed the year before."

Is it the part we're talking about?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Opus106 on December 28, 2010, 11:24:30 PM
Quote from: Tapio on December 28, 2010, 10:31:19 PM
I see. BTW, the Wikipedia S8 article says: "It [the 3rd mvmt.] features an interesting quote of the Sabre Dance from Aram Khachaturian, composed the year before."

Is it the part we're talking about?

I don't know whether it's an exact quote but 3:40 and 4:00, lasting for about 5 seconds in each case, sounds like it might have been taken from the Sabre Dance. But that "background" (please pardon me for the loose/inaccurate terminology) with the bassoon (?) and some kind of cymbal (?) is very similar.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 29, 2010, 05:31:46 AM
Quote from: Tapio on December 28, 2010, 10:31:19 PM
I see. BTW, the Wikipedia S8 article says: "It [the 3rd mvmt.] features an interesting quote of the Sabre Dance from Aram Khachaturian, composed the year before."

Is it the part we're talking about?

I'm not talking about any specific movement. Just his approach to the symphonic form in general.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 29, 2010, 08:52:10 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 28, 2010, 11:24:30 PMI don't know whether it's an exact quote but 3:40 and 4:00, lasting for about 5 seconds in each case, sounds like it might have been taken from the Sabre Dance. But that "background" (please pardon me for the loose/inaccurate terminology) with the bassoon (?) and some kind of cymbal (?) is very similar.
You're right. The aforementioned passage is not an exact quote of the Khatchaturian Sabre Dance, but it's obviously what they are referring to in the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._8_(Shostakovich)).
As MI writes, change of musical styles with the flip of a coin. Hey, maybe DCSH even liked marches and waltzes, why not.... :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Opus106 on December 29, 2010, 09:04:41 AM
Quote from: Tapio on December 29, 2010, 08:52:10 AM
Hey, maybe DCSH even liked marches and waltzes, why not.... :)

Last night I was listening to the Suite for Varied Orchestra (a.k.a. Jazz Suite No. 2), and it's almost full of those things.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 31, 2010, 04:40:36 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 29, 2010, 09:04:41 AM
Last night I was listening to the Suite for Varied Orchestra (a.k.a. Jazz Suite No. 2), and it's almost full of those things.


Yes, it is and it's a delightful little piece.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on January 12, 2011, 11:25:08 AM
Thought I might as well import this here.

A virtual neighbor attributed a dubious quote to Shostakovich, thus:


QuoteAs Shostakovich, Britten and Hindemith as well as other great composers said almost fifty years ago, 12-tone composers can't write a whistleable tune that one can remember when exiting the concert hall.

Of course, this is arrant sock-puppetry; and, why, no, the fellow who offered this "quotation" has not offered a source document (surprised?), even when invited to; after all, if Shostakovich did actually say such a thing, it would be of genuine interest to know just what he said, when, and what the context was.

I took the opportunity to check through my books for any quotes which might even distantly support such a flippant interpretation. Thus:


======================================

If I had been a bit better organized, I could have arranged to post those citations in chronological order at the outset.

As it is, though, I chanced upon comment spanning his career; and in particular a neat distribution over three decades later on.  Thus, we have this warm endorsement of Berg (whose Wozzeck was obviously a strong example to Shostakovich for Ledi Makbet) in late 1935:


Quote from: Fay, p.88In his high-profile role as model young Soviet composer during the year leading up to the condemnation of Lady Macbeth, Shostakovich had been candid about the influence the music of such contemporary composers as Berg, Schoenberg, Krenek, Hindemith, and especially Stravinsky had exerted on his development, especially in the three years after completing Conservatory. Just a few weeks before "Muddle Instead of Music" appeared, Shostakovich commiserated with Sollertinsky on the recent death of Alban Berg: "His passing grieved me no less than you. The deceased was a genius. I am convinced that sooner or later he will be appreciated."

We have a pitiful picture of Shostakovich as Stalin's "cultural ambassador" in New York in 1949, the year after the Zhdanovshchina, the denunciations at the Congress of Soviet Composers in April 1948; Shostakovich was a newly shaken man, having been dismissed from his professorships at both the Moscow and Leningrad Conservatories as of 1 Sept 1948:

Quote from: N. NabokovWhen, after several trying and ludicrous speeches, his turn came to speak he began to read his prepared talk in a nervous and shaky voice. After a few sentences he broke off, and the speech was continued in English by a suave baritone. In all the equivocation of that conference, Shostakovich's speech was the least direct. Written in the style of the Agitprop speeches, it was quite obviously prepared by the 'party organs' in charge of the Waldorf-Astoria conference, on the Soviet side of the picture. In it these 'organs', through their mouthpiece Shostakovich, condemned most Western music as decadent and bourgeois, painted the glories of the rising Soviet music culture, attacked the demon Stravinsky as the corrupter of Western art (with a dig at Prokofiev) and urged upon the 'progressive Americans' of the conference the necessity of fighting against the reactionaries and warmongers of America and . . . and admitted that the 'mouthpiece' (Mr Shostakovich) had itself often erred and sinned against the decrees of the Party.

I sat in my seat petrified by this spectacle of human misery and degradation. It was crystal clear to me that what I had suspected from the day that I heard that Shostakovich was going to be among the delegates representing the Soviet government was true: this speech of his, this whole peace-making mission was part of a punishment, part of a ritual redemption he had to go through before he could be pardoned again. He was to tell, in person, to all the dupes in the Waldorf conference and to the whole decadent bourgeois world that loved him so much that he, Shostakovich, the famous Russian composer, is not a free man, but an obedient tool of his government. He told in effect that every time the Party found flaws in his art, the Party was right, and every time the Party put him on ice, he was grateful to the Party, because it helped him to recognize the flaws and mistakes.

After his speech I felt I had to ask him publicly a few questions. I had to do it, not in order to embarrass a wretched human being who had just given me the most flagrant example of what it is to be a composer in the Soviet Union, but because of the several thousand people that sat in the hall, because of those that perhaps still could not or did not wish to understand the sinister game that was being played before their eyes. I asked him simple factual questions concerning modern music, questions that should be of interest to all musicians. I asked him whether he, personally, the composer Shostakovich, not the delegate of Stalin's government, subscribed to the wholesale condemnation of Western music as it had been expounded daily by the Soviet press and as it appeared in the official pronouncements of the Soviet Government. I asked him whether he, personally, agreed with the condemnation of the music of Stravinsky, Schoenberg, and Hindemith. To these questions he acquiesced: 'Yes," he said, 'I completely subscribe to the views as expressed by . . . etc. . . .' When he finished answering my questions the dupes in the audience gave him a new and prolonged ovation.

We have a snapshot during the much more composed period after Stalin's death, from 1959 and the early 60s:

Quote from: Fay, pp.214-15Another theme raised repeatedly during their American visit [22 Oct - 21 Nov 1959], according to an account attributed jointly to Shostakovich and Khrennikov, was the Soviet attitude toward dodecaphony, with the (preposterous, so they claimed) allegations that not only was it not performed in the Soviet Union but Soviet composers were officially forbidden to compose dodecaphonic music and, therefore, were denied artistic freedom. The opening of channels for cultural exchange had ushered in a new era of cultural competition. On his return from Italy and France the previous year, Shostakovich had reported that "the leading French masters are deeply troubled about the future of music in the West. They are troubled by the dissemination of false 'avant-garde' trends — like the notorious dodecaphony or 'concrete music' — among their youth. This still-born art gains no recognition from the broad public, it attests to the ideological impasse, the crisis of bourgeois culture." Such phrases, coupled with tributes to the adherents of genuinely "progressive" music responsive to the needs of the broad listening public, figured increasingly in Shostakovich's lexicon, as mouthpiece of official Soviet aesthetic policy.

In an interview given to a Polish journalist during the Warsaw Autumn Festival but published subsequently in Sovetskaya muzyka, Shostakovich preached at length of the perils of dodecaphony, which he felt had unreasonably monopolized the programs of the festival:

Quote from: Dmitri DmitriyevichI am firmly convinced that in music, as in every other human endeavor, it is always necessary to seek new paths. But it seems to me that those who see these new paths in dodecaphony are seriously deluding themselves. The narrow dogmatism of this artificially invented system rigidly fetters the creative imagination of composers and deprives them of individuality. It is no accident that in the entire legacy of Schoenberg's dodecaphonic system there is not a single work that has gained wide acceptance.... Dodecaphony not only has no future, it doesn't even have a present. It is just a "fad" that is already passing.

Soviet music, he asserted by contrast, was evaluated not by its degree of experimentation or by its deviation from tonality but by whether it was good, that is, whether it was rich in substance and artistically consummate.

This is not the place to debate the Soviet failure to acknowledge the aesthetic "inevitability" of the Second Viennese School and Serialism. In hindsight, the stance, though dogmatic, seems considerably less wrong-headed and regressive than it was thought to be in the West. At least in Shostakovich's case, it should not be assumed that he was ignorant of the musical styles he was condemning. Nor can it be taken for granted that the official line he was obliged to toe was completely alien to his real preferences and convictions. Shostakovich was an exceptionally sensitive and literate musician. In Warsaw, in America, and on his frequent foreign jaunts, he was provided with ample opportunity to meet composers, listen to their music, and assess the international picture. He stocked up on recordings whenever he traveled.

His son Maxim has recalled that scores sent by composers or musical organizations could always be found in their home and that Boulez's Le marteau sans maître, the late works of Stravinsky, and a couple of pieces by Xenakis were among the works he admired. In March 1959, as it happens, Shostakovich presented his old friend Shebalin with a score of Le marteau for his birthday. Denisov recorded in a diary entry for 1957 Shostakovich's private comments about his dislike of the music of Schoenberg and his feeling that Messiaen's Trois petites liturgies were rather saccharine. After having been singled out in one of Shostakovich's speeches as the "arch-representative of 'decadent capitalist culture,'" Karlheinz Stockhausen subsequently received a private letter from the composer professing admiration for his music and encouraging him to visit. Still, if his tastes in music were more catholic than his sometimes strident rhetoric might suggest, Shostakovich nonetheless favored more conservative contemporary idioms, the music of Benjamin Britten, for instance. His distaste for dry, inepressive music and his opposition to composition by rational system of mathematical formula were genuine. Direct engagement with his listener, the need to connect through his music with ordinary people remained a central concern for Shostakovich.

And from 1968-ish, when things had been calm enough, for long enough (and the composer was old enough) that you can almost hear Shostakovich breathing more freely:

Quote from: Laurel FayCritics remarked on the novelty in form, language, and technical means in the new quartet [the Twelfth], on the composer's unique ability to remain himself while exploring new horizons. There was, indeed, a great deal here that was new and unexpected for Shostakovich's music, not least of which was the considerable dependence on twelve-tone rows for its thematic material, within a broadly tonal context. This was not the cutting edge in Soviet music. Though revered as its elder statesman, a living legend, by now Shostakovich was no longer seen as a pioneer. From the late 1950s through the years of official bluster by the leadership of the Union of Composers—including Shostakovich himself—proclaiming the dangers of dodecaphony and alien avant-garde styles, genuine interest among Soviet musicians in the contemporary trends filtering in from the West had increased steadily, especially among young composers and performers. So had the volume of homegrown "experimental" scores. Shostakovich was not oblivious to these developments. Composer Nilolai Karetnikov even credited him with lending his support and authority to overcome the resistance of the orchestra of the Bolshoi Theatre, one of the most conservative bastions of musical tradition, to the staging of Karetnikov's twelve-tone ballet score, Vanina Vanini in 1962.

Shostakovich's adaptation of aspects of twelve-tone writing was not an aesthetic volte-face. Isolated examples of twelve-tone rows had already appeared in Seven Verses of A. Blok and in the Second Violin Concerto. His propensity for chromatic melody writing was longstanding. Queried by Tsyganov about the serial elements in his Twelfth Quartet, the composer is said to have commented: "They can also be found in Mozart." In an interview concerning young composers that appeared just before the Twelfth Quartet received its initial screening, Shostakovich's comments highlighted the consistency of his present practice with his lifelong principles:

Quote from: Dmitri DmitriyevichAs far as the use of strictly technical devices from such musical "systems" as dodecaphony or aleatory is concerned ... everything in good measure. If, let's say, a composer sets himself the obligatory task of writing dodecaphonic music, then he artificially limits his his possibilities, his ideas. The use of elements from these complex systems is fully justified if it is dictated by the concept of the composition.... You know, to a certain extent I think the formula "the end justifies the means" is valid in music. All means? All of them, if they contribute to the end objective.

As I said earlier, the picture is richer, better nuanced, and more artistically acute than any matter of Shostakovich snapping his fingers in disdain at music that you don't leave the hall a-whistling.

PS/ Note the Nabokov citation is found in the Elizabeth Wilson book.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on February 01, 2011, 11:04:19 AM
"impotent late heir to a traditional hostility towards true originality...feeble mixture of compositional facility and helplessness. Shostakovich, unjustly reprimanded as a cultural Bolshevist by the authorities of his home country...[has] a taste for tastelessness, a simplicity resulting from ignorance, an immaturity which masquerades as enlightenment, and a dearth of technical means."
- Theodor Adorno, Philosophy of Modern Music

EDIT: from the very same page:
"the triumphant meagerness of Benjamin Britten"
"the fame of Sibelius [is] an exceptional case of critical ignorance"
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on March 15, 2011, 10:33:41 AM
Observation
a) George Antheil heavily copied parts from D. D.'s Piano concerto #1/Lento in his Symphony No. 6, Larghetto. Te Larghetto almost begins the same as Dmitris PC. But I don't care, Antheil composed it a most beautiful way, I adore it.

Question
b) How can the thread of the best 20th century composer sink down to GMGs page 6?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

BTW: Finally! I'm reading the Shostakovich book of Krzysztof Meyer (I'm at the Sym. 9 era) - very good book - and will keep the 12-tone question in mind, I let you know if I find a quote.

Found a wonderful 11th Tocsin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYSNJr4-1kk (Jang Yun-Sung/ KBS Symphony Orchestra)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on March 15, 2011, 11:49:09 PM
Are both the same recordings? I have the second one, and I cannot praise it high enough.

(http://specfree.info/uploads/img/2673356.jpg)
(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00000E2RD.03._SS300_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Opus106 on March 16, 2011, 12:45:43 AM
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on March 15, 2011, 10:33:41 AM
Found a wonderful 11th Tocsin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYSNJr4-1kk (Jang Yun-Sung/ KBS Symphony Orchestra)

Thanks for the link. The actual Tocsin was a bit fast for my taste, and I could barely hear the "bell" (in-ear, plain-vanilla headphones). I nevertheless found it an exciting build up to the finale. I just wish the 'I-want-to-shout-bravo-first-or-clap-as-soon-as-the-sound-stops' guy would have waited for a few more seconds. >:(
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 16, 2011, 07:56:48 PM
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on March 15, 2011, 11:49:09 PM
Are both the same recordings?

Yes.

The first image is the reissue.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on March 16, 2011, 09:14:57 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 16, 2011, 12:45:43 AMThanks for the link. The actual Tocsin was a bit fast for my taste, and I could barely hear the "bell" (in-ear, plain-vanilla headphones).
Too fast - I think you mean from 14:00 onwards.. Yes, true. Haitink is slower here and he used my favourite timing.

QuoteI just wish the 'I-want-to-shout-bravo-first-or-clap-as-soon-as-the-sound-stops' guy would have waited for a few more seconds. >:(
Oh yes, what a coward. I thought "Where is the asian restraint"?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on March 18, 2011, 04:26:44 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on March 16, 2011, 07:56:48 PM
Yes.

The first image is the reissue.

Which means, come to think of it, that the Sixth I have on the Decca reissue (coupled with the Twelfth) is a duplicate.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 18, 2011, 07:20:04 AM
Looking forward to the next installment of the Petrenko recordings of Shostakovich's symphonies, coming out March 29th:

[asin]B004KDO2GG[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on March 20, 2011, 09:26:45 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 18, 2011, 07:20:04 AMLooking forward to the next installment of the Petrenko recordings of Shostakovich's symphonies, coming out March 29th:
A quick look on Amazon reveals, he already did the big tunes, 5 and 8-11. Usually I like Sanderling/Berlin - slower tempi-, in case of 11 Haitink/Concertgebouw. Is there a reason why I should try Petrenko? TIA.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VzZ6bs9tL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Viswb2DBCzY/TTEX6OlhjyI/AAAAAAAAFb8/sqMwiwkAtEY/s200/front.jpg)

My local library has the 2nd one. Are those the same recordings?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on March 22, 2011, 06:06:34 AM
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on March 20, 2011, 09:26:45 PM
A quick look on Amazon reveals, he already did the big tunes, 5 and 8-11.

But, wait a minute . . . that means that Nos. 4 & 7 are yet to be released.  I'm not surprised that these were not in the 'first wave': they are pieces for which excellence of execution depends greatly on how well the orchestra trusts the conductor, and the degree to which the conductor understands the demands he can make of the band.

As to the two images, the upper is the outer sleeve, the lower is the booklet cover.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on March 22, 2011, 09:08:49 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 18, 2011, 07:20:04 AMLooking forward to the next installment of the Petrenko recordings of Shostakovich's symphonies, coming out March 29th:[asin]B004KDO2GG[/asin]
Hmm, I've already seen the CD in Saturn, Dortmund (http://www2.saturn.de/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/main?storeId=16572&catalogId=20106&langId=-3&ok=T_MYOUTLET&uk=S_DATA), but didn't buy.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on April 20, 2011, 08:28:30 PM
DSCH motif in Symphony No. 15 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSCH_(Dmitri_Shostakovich)#By_Shostakovich)? Where? Never realized it's also there...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on April 20, 2011, 11:18:44 PM
Quote from: Apollon on March 22, 2011, 06:06:34 AM
But, wait a minute . . . that means that Nos. 4 & 7 are yet to be released.  I'm not surprised that these were not in the 'first wave': they are pieces for which excellence of execution depends greatly on how well the orchestra trusts the conductor, and the degree to which the conductor understands the demands he can make of the band.

The next volume, incidentally, will be Nos 6 and 12.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on April 28, 2011, 07:44:25 PM
http://shostakovi.ch/film/en/

QuoteHere you can see the list on 34 films which music he composed for. You can also watch 23 public-domain vids and 2 ones with Japanese subscriptions.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on April 28, 2011, 07:47:51 PM
Did Kurt Sanderling ever conduct Symphony No. 11 and is it available on CD?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on May 03, 2011, 07:13:58 AM
Ugh. Crawled through Youtube searching for a nice SQ8 performance - my first steps into the chamber music world. Accidentally clicked a wrong link. OK, it's not André Rieu, but anyway, it's hard to stand ;).

http://www.youtube.com/v/K1T2uPhQgLE

BTW.

(http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=151500)

Oh noes.
Title: Important information.
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on May 03, 2011, 07:25:17 AM
People. Shostakovich as a part of the GMG username is NOT mandatory here. Just wanted to let you know ;)
Title: Re: Important information.
Post by: Philoctetes on May 03, 2011, 08:02:47 AM
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on May 03, 2011, 07:25:17 AM
People. Shostakovich as a part of the GMG username is NOT mandatory here. Just wanted to let you know ;)

I wish all the jackasses would go back to their original screen names.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on May 03, 2011, 08:08:01 AM
Philoctetes Dmitriyevich Shostakovich would be fine.

Best regards,
a jackass.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Philoctetes on May 03, 2011, 08:08:35 AM
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on May 03, 2011, 08:08:01 AM
Philoctetes Dmitriyevich Shostakovich would be fine.

Best regards,
a jackass.

:P
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on May 03, 2011, 08:14:15 AM
I guess I could call myself David W. Joseph Haydn. :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Philoctetes on May 03, 2011, 08:15:28 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 03, 2011, 08:14:15 AM
I guess I could call myself David W. Joseph Haydn. :D

I think everyone knows who you are. I don't think anyone comes close to having as many posts as you.  :-*
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Philoctetes on May 03, 2011, 08:23:29 AM
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 28, 2011, 07:47:51 PM
Did Kurt Sanderling ever conduct Symphony No. 11 and is it available on CD?

I'm sure that he conducted it at some point, but I cannot seem to find even a rumor of a compact disc, sadly.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on May 03, 2011, 08:41:14 AM
Quote from: Philoctetes on May 03, 2011, 08:15:28 AM
I think everyone knows who you are. I don't think anyone comes close to having as many posts as you.  :-*

Karl has 10x the post count.  He is our prolific poster. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Philoctetes on May 03, 2011, 08:42:22 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 03, 2011, 08:41:14 AM
Karl has 10x the post count.  He is our prolific poster. :)

Only because a certain someone has a habit of doing something.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on May 03, 2011, 11:52:46 AM
Shosta 5-finale, shouldn't the timpany (when being solo for a moment) slow down? He doesn't here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44LqDSSdpew&feature=player_detailpage#t=645s
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on May 05, 2011, 11:25:01 PM
Good luck finding this thread if you search by "Shostakovich"...


I recently took delivery of the symphony cycle conducted by Rozhdestvensky, released through Venezia. This means I now have practically all the major Russian cycles: Kondrashin, Rozhdy, Mravinsky (incomplete), plus Svetlanov (1, 5 & 7). Hooray!

I'm currently listening to disc 1 of the set, symphonies 1 and 12. The interpretations seem a bit soft-edged compared to the recordings I favour, but I will remain optimistic.

My preferences for the cycle are:

1.  Svet
4.  Kond
5.  Svet
6.  Mrav
7.  ???
8.  Mrav (Regis)
9.  Kond
10. Karajan
11. ???
12. ???
15. Mrav

BTW, the Jansons cycle was mostly disappointing, but I do very much like his discs of 1/15 and 9/10. Pick them up if they become available separately.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 06, 2011, 03:02:47 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 05, 2011, 11:25:01 PM
BTW, the Jansons cycle was mostly disappointing, but I do very much like his discs of 1/15 and 9/10. Pick them up if they become available separately.

I haven't heard his entire cycle, but the Tenth & Fifteenth are certainly excellent.  His account of the Eighth (with Pittsburgh, IIRC) is also very good.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on May 06, 2011, 07:01:19 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 05, 2011, 11:25:01 PMGood luck finding this thread if you search by "Shostakovich"...
I find the thread best if a) I'm being on top forum level and b) search for "dmitri".

Not much experience with Janssons, because in my favourite Symphonies I prefer Sanderling (1,5,8,15), Karajan (10) and Haitink (11). I've got Janssons 4th, but the 4th itself is yet to be cracked by me.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Opus106 on May 06, 2011, 07:04:07 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 05, 2011, 11:25:01 PM
Good luck finding this thread if you search by "Shostakovich"...

Do you mean to say that you don't have the GMG Composer Index (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8566) bookmarked?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on May 08, 2011, 03:47:13 PM
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on May 06, 2011, 07:01:19 AM
I find the thread best if a) I'm being on top forum level and b) search for "dmitri".

Not much experience with Janssons, because in my favourite Symphonies I prefer Sanderling (1,5,8,15), Karajan (10) and Haitink (11). I've got Janssons 4th, but the 4th itself is yet to be cracked by me.
Searching dmitri didn't work for me :(

Haven't heard Sanderling. Listened to a bit more of the set - 4 is the standout so far, possibly supplanting* Kondrashin. Very intense, and better sound than K.

But my god it's a long bloody symphony - or sounds that way, having no structure I can discern. I looked through some different CD liner notes and got no clue from them.



* Dictionary tells me to use supplant, not surplant, but sur (Middle English < Old French < Latin 'super') and plant (v. 'plant') does actually work IMO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on May 08, 2011, 07:45:55 PM
Start the search from here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php), the top left link...

Quote from: eyeresist on May 08, 2011, 03:47:13 PMBut my god it's a long bloody symphony - or sounds that way, having no structure I can discern. I looked through some different CD liner notes and got no clue from them.
Exactly my problem. I'm sure understanding of the structure and pleasure will come with repeated listenings, so the 4th will require time - more than other symphonies of his. Currently I could only enjoy the mysterious and frightening finale of the 4th... Shostakovich was so good at movements endings... (Why wasn't Bruckner?...) The 4th requires so much time which I cannot afford currently... So until July I'll play his 11th and 10th back and forth, and his 8th SQ :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 09, 2011, 03:38:09 AM
July? What if we do a Listener Group on the Fourth in June?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on May 09, 2011, 04:23:51 AM
One listening group at a time Karl. :D

Nah, I'm in. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 09, 2011, 04:36:07 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 09, 2011, 04:23:51 AM
One listening group at a time Karl. :D

That's right!  Agon in May, the Shostakovich Opus 43 in June . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on May 09, 2011, 06:25:32 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 09, 2011, 03:38:09 AMJuly? What if we do a Listener Group on the Fourth in June?
I'll not be part of it because I introduce an IT System which has to be finished until 06-30 with spare time already. I'm already lagging with my clarinet exercises :( Or maybe, at a weekend?! Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Where's the listening group thread?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 09, 2011, 06:27:32 AM
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on May 09, 2011, 06:25:32 AM
I'll not be part of it because I introduce an IT System which has to be finished until 06-30 with spare time already. I'm already lagging with my clarinet exercises :(

All right, we'll set it for July; don't want to leave you out!

You still in, Davey?

(Should think of something else for June . . . .)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on May 09, 2011, 07:29:56 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 09, 2011, 06:27:32 AMAll right, we'll set it for July; don't want to leave you out!
[DSCH 4/Listening group]
If in July, I'm in. It's a welcome reason to listen to #4 properly. Is there a dedicated thread? Rules? Etc.?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on May 09, 2011, 07:33:10 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 09, 2011, 06:27:32 AM
All right, we'll set it for July; don't want to leave you out!

You still in, Davey?

(Should think of something else for June . . . .)


Yup I'm good. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 09, 2011, 07:52:37 AM
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on May 09, 2011, 07:29:56 AM
[DSCH 4/Listening group]
If in July, I'm in. It's a welcome reason to listen to #4 properly. Is there a dedicated thread? Rules? Etc.?

No rules. Just right.

The thread will be here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18506.0.html).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 02:18:35 PM
Let's have a Koechlin listening night, but, wait, nobody has any of his recordings. :P
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 09, 2011, 04:49:32 PM
OT, buddy! ; )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 04:58:37 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 09, 2011, 04:49:32 PM
OT, buddy! ; )

Overtime? ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scarpia on May 09, 2011, 05:01:24 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 04:58:37 PM
Overtime? ;)

Off topic, I presume.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on May 09, 2011, 05:02:59 PM
OT=MI (More Interesting, not Mirror Image)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 05:09:55 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 09, 2011, 05:02:59 PM
OT=MI (More Interesting, not Mirror Image)

:P I don't know about that. I'm thinking more along the lines of MI=Mutated Imp. :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on May 09, 2011, 05:58:03 PM
(* ahem *) No matter how hot Koechlin may be, it is hard to justify derailing the Shostakovich thread over him ; )

Quite a few places in the historical Kondrashin recording of the Fourth where artifacts from the source (and in places, just plain quality of the recording) which verge on Getting in the Way.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on June 25, 2011, 05:50:37 AM
Quote from: James on June 25, 2011, 04:25:51 AM
STRING QUARTETS
The Borodins [yaddayaddayadda] have made three recordings of the complete cycle.

They have made one recording of the complete cycle. And with the Emerson, even if one liked their performances, the applause is bloody annoying.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on June 26, 2011, 05:25:49 AM
Quote from: James on June 25, 2011, 04:25:51 AMThe latter was written in 1960 but inspired by the firebombing of Dresden, a disaster that was also a source for Strauss's Metamorphosen. Unlike Metamorphosen, however, this is a bleak creation that offers no sense of hope or reconciliation.

Wrong thread for this, perhaps, but whatever gleam of light or hope there may be in the middle passages of Metamorphosen, I should think that the work's dying moments, and especially those two haunting final chords, leave all such "sense of hope or reconciliation" snuffed out.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on June 26, 2011, 08:50:19 PM
Recently I've been listening to the chamber symphonies a lot, as an accompaniment to writing. I have the two-CD set of Barshai conducting the Orchestra Sinfonica di Milano Giuseppe Verdi, as reissued by Brilliant.

[ASIN]B000ZLOADC[/ASIN]

This set has come in for much criticism which I think is unwarranted. It is perhaps not the very fiercest performance one could imagine, but it is certainly not bland or effete. The orchestra is excellent, especially considering they are unknowns, and I think the Italian band are the reason these performances are much more warm and shapely than "dry as dust" Barshai generally manages. It's always good to find "new" orchestral music by Shostakovich, and if that's what you're looking for I recommend you start here.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 27, 2011, 03:33:56 AM
I've never been mad for the "chamber symphonies." I'm inclined simply to listen to the source quartets.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on June 27, 2011, 06:55:53 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 27, 2011, 03:33:56 AM
I've never been mad for the "chamber symphonies." I'm inclined simply to listen to the source quartets.

Next you're gonna say that you don't like Barber's Adagio! :P

Stinker! ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 27, 2011, 07:00:26 AM
I'm no fun anymore!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on June 27, 2011, 07:03:11 AM
I have a recording of one of the chamber symphonies coupled with an interesting piece... the Suite on Finnish Themes.  Anybody heard that one before? :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 27, 2011, 09:04:11 AM
I had that disc!  And, I think I listened to the piece once, and it didn't impress itself upon mine memory. (No! Don't call me a stinker!)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on June 27, 2011, 05:44:31 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 27, 2011, 03:33:56 AM
I've never been mad for the "chamber symphonies." I'm inclined simply to listen to the source quartets.

Well, the symphonies are perfect for me, as the sound of the string quartet (or similar group) has never sat well upon my ears. Too shrill, too timbrally monotonous. Too much display of ego. The adaptations have a richer, smoother and more varied sound, and the musicians are required to show a bit more discipline.
Ain't I a stinker?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on June 28, 2011, 04:53:24 AM
We could perhaps interest monsieur in ze Bartók chamber symphonies?  Arranged, I believe, by André Rieu . . . .

; )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on June 29, 2011, 05:17:00 PM
Don't get me started on bloody Bartok....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on July 23, 2011, 08:48:00 AM
Bump.  According to my listening log, that's 9 Shostakovich compositions in a row I've listened to now.

I'll make it a perfect 10 when I spin Symphony No. 14.   :D 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on August 26, 2011, 12:29:59 PM
(http://www.abload.de/thumb/dmitri12rlx.jpg) (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=dmitri12rlx.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 20, 2011, 10:48:00 AM
I bought these two Shostakovich operas last night:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0023T9Y94.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B002N4DZ44.01.L.jpg)

What does everybody think of these two? I read that Lady Macbeth upset Stalin that he left during intermission. Hmmm....sounds like it's right up my alley. :) I usually like operas that off the beaten path like Bartok's Bluebeard or Ravel's L'Enfant et les sortileges for example.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Renfield on October 01, 2011, 03:03:51 AM
The Petrenko 10th has landed (on my doormat). I'll spin it sometime between now and tomorrow afternoon, and report back.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 01, 2011, 03:50:51 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on June 27, 2011, 05:44:31 PM
Well, the symphonies are perfect for me, as the sound of the string quartet (or similar group) has never sat well upon my ears. Too shrill, too timbrally monotonous.

You and Mrs. Rock have similar taste. Chamber music is Kammermusik in German. But she calls it Jammermusik (Jammer= misery, howling lament)  ;D


Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on October 01, 2011, 07:20:02 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 20, 2011, 10:48:00 AM
I bought these two Shostakovich operas last night:
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B002N4DZ44.01.L.jpg)

A friend who's writing her master's dissertation on Lady Macbeth played me a few YouTube clips of highlights from the opera, and they were absolutely riveting. I remember especially a scene where a drunk peasant finds a body, being written and played as if the score and musicians were all on fire. Truly a wild, electric opera if those highlights were indicative. I have my eyes on that CD.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on October 01, 2011, 07:36:10 AM
You absolutely want it, Brian.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 01, 2011, 07:30:43 PM
Quote from: Brian on October 01, 2011, 07:20:02 AM
A friend who's writing her master's dissertation on Lady Macbeth played me a few YouTube clips of highlights from the opera, and they were absolutely riveting. I remember especially a scene where a drunk peasant finds a body, being written and played as if the score and musicians were all on fire. Truly a wild, electric opera if those highlights were indicative. I have my eyes on that CD.

I haven't heard it (yet), Brian, but I imagine you would want to pick it up as the audio samples I heard were right up my alley. I usually like 20th Century operas that a little off-the-wall.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on October 02, 2011, 03:05:32 PM
Quote from: Renfield on October 01, 2011, 03:03:51 AM
The Petrenko 10th has landed (on my doormat). I'll spin it sometime between now and tomorrow afternoon, and report back.

Russian Liquid Nitrogen!

;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on October 03, 2011, 06:00:26 AM
I just can't listen to DSCH anymore. Maybe it's the 'Freebird Syndrome': I've neurally mapped his music in my mind, so, if I want to hear it, I just have to think about it.

I still want to hear SQs 4-5 every now and then, and I love the two late string sonatas.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Renfield on October 03, 2011, 06:36:57 AM
I have that 'neural mapping' problem with the Mahler 9th.


And I know I owe some impressions on the Petrenko 10th... At the very least, I can say I won't ask for my five quid back!

Sadly, you may have to wait a little for the longer version, as it requires more time than I have right now to type up. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on October 03, 2011, 07:23:36 AM
I do not have that "neural mapping" problem at all, no matter how well I know any piece.  I don't know, just from knowing the score of a piece, how a given performance will go of it.  So I find any recording value added.  (I suppose I haven't played any particular recording of any Shostakovich work "to destruction"; but again, I expect that in a worst case, I should need to avoid a recording, not the piece itself.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 03, 2011, 02:38:04 PM
I bought this complete recording of the ballet The Bolt many months ago and I'm finally going to listen to it hopefully by tonight, what do you guys think about the work and, in particular, this recording:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000AW8.01.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on October 03, 2011, 05:33:00 PM
November on Naxos (http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.572824-25):

(http://cdn.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.572824-25.gif)

"This recording of New Babylon, one of Shostakovich's most inventive and truly symphonic film scores, is the first complete recording of all the surviving music from the original 'lost' manuscript full score and the first to use five solo string players only, as conceived by the composer. A remarkable collage of marches, can-cans, carnival music, tumultuous rhythms and musical quotations, New Babylon bristles with witty dissonance and brassy ebullience, emphasizing the film's content rather than its visual surface. Mark Fitz-Gerald's two previous Naxos world première recordings of Shostakovich's film scores for Alone (8.570316) and The Girlfriends (8.572138) have been highly acclaimed."
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on October 04, 2011, 12:55:00 PM
Brilliant, Brian! I've been itching to hear that score for years.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 04, 2011, 12:58:32 PM
Nobody with any comments concerning the ballet The Bolt, what the hell is wrong with you bunch of misfits? ;) :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Opus106 on October 07, 2011, 09:43:03 AM
http://www.quartets.de/

A website dedicated to the string quartets of Shostakovich. A cursory glance at the write-ups seems to suggest a slightly technical discussion of the works, but I'm sure that a layman can pick up a thing or two also.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on October 07, 2011, 12:49:53 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on October 07, 2011, 09:43:03 AM
http://www.quartets.de/

A website dedicated to the string quartets of Shostakovich. A cursory glance at the write-ups seems to suggest a slightly technical discussion of the works, but I'm sure that a layman can pick up a thing or two also.

Navneeth, thank you so much for providing this link!   :)

So far, do you have a particular favourite among Shostakovich's quartets, Nav?

My current favourite is # 4, followed by # 10 and then of course after that is the famous # 8   :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Opus106 on October 07, 2011, 11:14:19 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 07, 2011, 12:49:53 PM
So far, do you have a particular favourite among Shostakovich's quartets, Nav?

None at the moment. In fact, I'm not very familiar with that set of works.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 08, 2011, 04:17:20 AM
Think I've mentioned it before, but Wendy Lesser's book on the DSCH quartets Music for Silenced Voices looks very worth reading. Here's a review:

http://www.najp.org/articles/2011/04/review-wendy-lessers-music-for.html
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on October 08, 2011, 08:27:14 AM
I browsed that book once, it sort of rubbed me mildly the wrong way for some reason(s) or other . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 08, 2011, 08:50:52 AM
Karl Henning...have you heard Rozhdestvensky's recording of The Bolt? Nobody has responded, but maybe if I call people out it might work...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 08, 2011, 10:31:59 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 08, 2011, 08:27:14 AM
I browsed that book once, it sort of rubbed me mildly the wrong way for some reason(s) or other . . . .

Do you remember why, Karl? (my theory: she's not a real music critic, just a fan)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on October 08, 2011, 02:20:32 PM
I should have a fresh look to remember why. And of course, a real music critic might write something which runs me the wrong way as readily as a fan . . . might almost say that I prefer a fan who writes well to, oh, any number of real music critics ; )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on October 08, 2011, 02:21:17 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 08, 2011, 08:50:52 AM
Karl Henning...have you heard Rozhdestvensky's recording of The Bolt?might work...

I've not.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 08, 2011, 07:07:26 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 08, 2011, 02:21:17 PM
I've not.

Thanks. Have you heard The Golden Age? If yes, what did you think about that work?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 09, 2011, 01:22:01 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 08, 2011, 02:20:32 PM
I . . . might almost say that I prefer a fan who writes well to, oh, any number of real music critics ; )

Yeah, I should have been more specific. "Fan" writing tends to be more impressionistic; "critic" writing tends to be more technical. Finding the right balance between the two is one of the things that makes writing about music difficult.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on October 15, 2011, 10:38:49 AM
Thing I did not know:

"Do you know, as it happens, Shostakovich has actually written a piece called Football, which reflects a football game in about five to seven minutes. It's a lovely little piece, in which you can clearly hear the whistles of the referee, the players running here and there, and struggling with each other, so there are many similarities."
- from an interview with Vasily Petrenko (http://www.naxos.com/news/default.asp?op=933&displayMenu=Naxos_News&type=2)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 18, 2011, 09:24:07 PM
Bought these tonight:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000ADJ.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000AHN.01.L.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000AJ2.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000AHI.01.L.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000AHZ.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000AHT.01.L.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000AGQ.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000AK7.01.L.jpg)

Have anyone heard any of these?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 18, 2011, 10:48:02 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 18, 2011, 09:24:07 PM
Have anyone heard any of these?

The Järvi 10th is really good - one of the best versions I've heard.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2011, 02:36:04 AM
Quote from: Velimir on October 18, 2011, 10:48:02 PM
The Järvi 10th is really good - one of the best versions I've heard.

1, 6 and 9 are superbly performed too. Sonically very appealing with great brass and percussion. The Suite from Katerina Ismailova is a unique (I don't see many recordings available) and substantial bonus: the interpretation brutal and nasty--as it should be. Best Festive Overture I've ever heard too. And if Järvi's "Tea for Two" doesn't put a big grin on your face, you're seriously lacking a funny bone  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on October 19, 2011, 04:09:01 AM
The Fourth is recorded in too reverberant a space, so that too many passages are rather muddy.  Easily the worst recording of the symphony that I've heard.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: not edward on October 19, 2011, 05:46:23 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 19, 2011, 04:09:01 AM
The Fourth is recorded in too reverberant a space, so that too many passages are rather muddy.  Easily the worst recording of the symphony that I've heard.
Was that one of the ones recorded in Glasgow City Hall? It was an acoustic nightmare when I lived in Glasgow in the mid-to-late 90s, though I read that it's had a major refurbishment since then.

I wasn't impressed by the Jarvi 4th either--my memories are of a performance seriously lacking in nuance--I had a culling of 4ths about a decade ago and it and the generally underpowered Ashkenazy were the two recordings that went straight to the 'trade' pile.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on October 19, 2011, 06:18:16 AM
Aye, that's the venue, Edward
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: not edward on October 19, 2011, 06:40:06 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 19, 2011, 06:18:16 AM
Aye, that's the venue, Edward
Random Glasgow City Hall trivia: I was told by one of the orchestra players that when the BBC Scottish Symphony did Nielsen's 5th there in the '90s, they had to place the side-drummer on a balcony far above the orchestra to make sure it cut clearly enough through the aural mess in the hall.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2011, 06:49:13 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 19, 2011, 04:09:01 AM
The Fourth is recorded in too reverberant a space, so that too many passages are rather muddy.  Easily the worst recording of the symphony that I've heard.

The 9th was recorded in the Henry Woods Hall Glasgow. It doesn't share those sonic faults.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 19, 2011, 07:32:07 AM
Thanks for all your feedback. I've always liked Neeme Jarvi's Prokofiev recordings, so, naturally, I was inclined to buy the Shostakovich ones.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Robert on October 19, 2011, 09:06:31 AM
I do not own any Chandos Shostakovich.  I own the DG 11th.   I was very unhappy with this performance so, I never bothered getting any more of his Shostakovich. Prokofiev is another story. .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 19, 2011, 06:03:41 PM
Quote from: Robert on October 19, 2011, 09:06:31 AM
I do not own any Chandos Shostakovich.  I own the DG 11th.   I was very unhappy with this performance so, I never bothered getting any more of his Shostakovich. Prokofiev is another story. .

I've never been too impressed with Jarvi's DG recordings for some reason, but I think apart of this comes from his usual choice of orchestra for this label: the Gothenburg Symphony, which lack a certain rawness I like in Shostakovich.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Robert on October 19, 2011, 07:09:37 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 19, 2011, 06:03:41 PM
I've never been too impressed with Jarvi's DG recordings for some reason, but I think apart of this comes from his usual choice of orchestra for this label: the Gothenburg Symphony, which lack a certain rawness I like in Shostakovich.
[/quote

The only set I own is by Kondrachine  w/ Orch Philarmonique de Moscow on Melodia U.S.S. R.  I do own many of his symphonies by Bernstein, Ormandy, Jansons and Wigglesworth....I never felt Jarvi had that rawness,
which he didn't need in Prokofiev.....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 19, 2011, 07:18:43 PM
Quote from: Robert on October 19, 2011, 07:09:37 PMThe only set I own is by Kondrashin  w/ Orch Philarmonique de Moscow on Melodia U.S.S. R.  I do own many of his symphonies by Bernstein, Ormandy, Jansons and Wigglesworth....I never felt Jarvi had that rawness, which he didn't need in Prokofiev.....

But Jarvi's Chandos recordings with Scottish National Orchestra are quite different than the ones on DG. That rawness is ever present in these recordings.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on October 19, 2011, 07:20:27 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 19, 2011, 06:03:41 PM
his usual choice of orchestra for this label: the Gothenburg Symphony

...which were his "usual choice" because he was their Chief Conductor for many, many years.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 19, 2011, 07:33:09 PM
Quote from: Brian on October 19, 2011, 07:20:27 PM
...which were his "usual choice" because he was their Chief Conductor for many, many years.

That's right! I like his work with the Scottish National Orchestra the best.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 20, 2011, 09:16:04 PM
What does everybody think of the Haitink set?

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000F3T7RO.01.L.jpg)

It has been a few years since I listened to this set. I can't remember the pros/cons of it. I'm thinking about digging it back out, what do you think I should listen to first or what, in your opinion, is one of the better performances of the set?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 20, 2011, 09:58:49 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 20, 2011, 09:16:04 PM
What does everybody think of the Haitink set?

I've heard several of the performances in the set. The 8th is a powerful and relentless performance, with awesome playing by the Conc'bouw. The 15th is also very good. The 5th is pretty good, but middle-of-the-road. I can't recall hearing anything else, but the set as a whole seems to get mostly positive reviews.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: not edward on October 21, 2011, 05:41:13 AM
Quote from: Velimir on October 20, 2011, 09:58:49 PM
I've heard several of the performances in the set. The 8th is a powerful and relentless performance, with awesome playing by the Conc'bouw. The 15th is also very good. The 5th is pretty good, but middle-of-the-road. I can't recall hearing anything else, but the set as a whole seems to get mostly positive reviews.
Agreed regarding the 15th; it's a very fine performance, as is the 14th if you can deal with Fischer-Dieskau barking his way through his vocal parts. Generally, what I've heard I would describe as very well-executed, sympathetic mainstream readings. Whether the listener prefers their Shostakovich in this manner or, say, the approach of a Kondrashin, is likely to come down to individual preference, I think.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 21, 2011, 07:18:57 AM
Thanks for your feedback guys. I'll start with the 15th and 8th then. 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on October 21, 2011, 08:27:14 AM
I like the Seventh and Thirteenth in the Haitink cycle, as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 21, 2011, 08:40:41 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 21, 2011, 08:27:14 AM
I like the Seventh and Thirteenth in the Haitink cycle, as well.

Everybody, let's just list the whole cycle. ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Robert on October 21, 2011, 09:18:20 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 20, 2011, 09:16:04 PM
What does everybody think of the Haitink set?

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000F3T7RO.01.L.jpg)

It has been a few years since I listened to this set. I can't remember the pros/cons of it. I'm thinking about digging it back out, what do you think I should listen to first or what, in your opinion, is one of the better performances of the set?

John,
Have you heard any Jansons??.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on October 21, 2011, 09:26:33 AM
Quote from: Robert on October 21, 2011, 09:18:20 AM
John,
Have you heard any Jansons??.

You didn't ask me . . . but the Eighth, Tenth and Fifteenth are particularly outstanding in the Jansons cycle.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Robert on October 21, 2011, 09:47:23 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 21, 2011, 09:26:33 AM
You didn't ask me . . . but the Eighth, Tenth and Fifteenth are particularly outstanding in the Jansons cycle.

Sorry Karl. I don't know what I was thinking..Please forgive me.  I guess I was away far too long....I agree with your choices.....I never cared for his Symphony 2 - 3, until I heard Jansons.  I have most of his Shostakovich. He is near the top for me....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: karlhenning on October 21, 2011, 09:53:01 AM
No worries, Robert, I just chimed right in . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on October 21, 2011, 12:11:16 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 21, 2011, 09:26:33 AM
You didn't ask me . . . but the Eighth, Tenth and Fifteenth are particularly outstanding in the Jansons cycle.
If I recall it correctly (Haven't listened to it in a while) his Thirteenth is also very good in my opinion
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 21, 2011, 08:22:01 PM
Quote from: Robert on October 21, 2011, 09:18:20 AM
John,
Have you heard any Jansons??.

Yes, I own and heard the Jansons cycle. I don't remember it though. :-[
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 21, 2011, 11:41:58 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 21, 2011, 09:26:33 AM
You didn't ask me . . . but the Eighth, Tenth and Fifteenth are particularly outstanding in the Jansons cycle.

I can vouch for that 15th. It's on the dark side, rather than the whimsical side of the intepretation continuum.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on October 24, 2011, 04:17:35 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 21, 2011, 08:27:14 AMI like the Seventh and Thirteenth in the Haitink cycle, as well.
The one and only Eleventh is with Haitink. I know I've already mentioned that, but I can't resist.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Robert on October 24, 2011, 09:15:27 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 21, 2011, 08:22:01 PM
Yes, I own and heard the Jansons cycle. I don't remember it though. :-[

Morning John,

I take this to mean you found nothing memorable about his conducting.   Which Shostakovich symphony conductor or conductors do you remember. Can you identify them just by listening to them.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 24, 2011, 09:19:49 AM
Quote from: Robert on October 24, 2011, 09:15:27 AM
Morning John,

I take this to mean you found nothing memorable about his conducting.   Which Shostakovich symphony conductor or conductors do you remember. Can you identify them just by listening to them.

Morning Robert,

I took Sanderling, Petrenko, Rattle, and Rostropovich when I first heard them. I can recognize each of these conductors interpretations by the sound of the orchestra and by how they accent different phrases. Haitink and Jansons I seem to can't remember a note. I don't know why.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Robert on October 24, 2011, 09:40:55 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 24, 2011, 09:19:49 AM
Morning Robert,

I took Sanderling, Petrenko, Rattle, and Rostropovich when I first heard them. I can recognize each of these conductors interpretations by the sound of the orchestra and by how they accent different phrases. Haitink and Jansons I seem to can't remember a note. I don't know why.

Yes  I understand.  The one thing I hear in Haitink is his intense detail to sound....It sucks you right in......I also enjoy Rostropovich....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Robert on October 24, 2011, 09:43:11 AM
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on October 24, 2011, 04:17:35 AM
The one and only Eleventh is with Haitink. I know I've already mentioned that, but I can't resist.

Forgetting  the age of the recording, Stokowski gives him some stiff competition...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 24, 2011, 09:43:47 AM
Quote from: Robert on October 24, 2011, 09:40:55 AM
Yes  I understand.  The one thing I hear in Haitink is his intense detail to sound....It sucks you right in......I also enjoy Rostropovich....

I'm going to try and give Haitink another trial, because it has been many years since I've listened to any performance from his cycle.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 24, 2011, 09:46:30 AM
Quote from: Robert on October 24, 2011, 09:43:11 AM
Forgetting  the age of the recording, Stokowski give him some stiff competition...

As does, Rostropovich. What a scorching performance with the LSO. He also did a good earlier one with National Symphony Orchestra on Teldec.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Robert on October 24, 2011, 10:22:09 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 24, 2011, 09:43:47 AM
I'm going to try and give Haitink another trial, because it has been many years since I've listened to any performance from his cycle.

John

Did you mean Jansons a trial?  If you meant Haitink start with 10, 8 & 11.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 24, 2011, 10:26:17 AM
Quote from: Robert on October 24, 2011, 10:22:09 AM
John

Did you mean Jansons a trial?  If you meant Haitink start with 10, 8 & 11.

No, I'm talking about Haitink. I will give these a listen, Robert. Thanks.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Robert on October 24, 2011, 02:20:03 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 24, 2011, 10:26:17 AM
No, I'm talking about Haitink. I will give these a listen, Robert. Thanks.

John

If you ever consider looking at Jansons again try his 3 7 15.  I never really liked his 2 & 3 until I heard Jansons.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 24, 2011, 05:10:41 PM
Quote from: Robert on October 24, 2011, 02:20:03 PM
John

If you ever consider looking at Jansons again try his 3 7 15.  I never really liked his 2 & 3 until I heard Jansons.

Thanks Robert. Will give these a try.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: AndanteCantabile on November 07, 2011, 05:18:06 PM
I have not listened to much Shostakovich, but recently heard a bit of the C minor quartet performed and liked it. Can anyone tell me what they think of the quartets in general and perhaps suggest some nice complete sets?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on November 07, 2011, 05:23:31 PM
Quote from: AndanteCantabile on November 07, 2011, 05:18:06 PM
I have not listened to much Shostakovich, but recently heard a bit of the C minor quartet performed and liked it. Can anyone tell me what they think of the quartets in general and perhaps suggest some nice complete sets?

Love Shostakovich's string quartets.  They are amazing works.  Every single one of them very unique from the other.

There are a lot of great sets that people will recommend, including:

Fitzwilliam SQ
Borodin SQ
Emerson SQ
Eder Quartet
Manderling SQ
Sorrel SQ
Rubio SQ

I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but my favorite sets of what I have heard are the Fitzwilliam's and Eder Quartet.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 08, 2011, 12:10:31 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 07, 2011, 05:23:31 PM
Love Shostakovich's string quartets.  They are amazing works.  Every single one of them very unique from the other.

I agree with this. Not a weak one in the bunch. Some of his best music, from #1 to #15.

I started with single issues by the Eder and Shostakovich Qts, and have heard some of the Emerson and Borodin cycles. I bought the Fitzwilliam cycle and have been happy with that. Very consistent set in terms of quality. But the other sets I've heard were good too in their own ways. Collectors are lucky with this music, many good choices.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on November 13, 2011, 04:47:28 PM
Quote from: Robert on October 24, 2011, 02:20:03 PM
If you ever consider looking at Jansons again try his 3 7 15.  I never really liked his 2 & 3 until I heard Jansons.

From the Jansons box I recommend 1/15 and 9/10. The rest I found pretty blah, but these were very effective.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 13, 2011, 04:57:26 PM
I'm an unreconstructed table-pounder for the Tenth played by the Phila Orch under Jansons's baton.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 14, 2011, 07:59:29 AM
String arrangements were always difficult for me, I'm preferring full orchestra over any kind of chamber like music. But that may change... That being said, I'm really into the SQ8 now, listened a lot of times to it. Which one would you recommend me to try next?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 14, 2011, 08:06:29 AM
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on December 14, 2011, 07:59:29 AM
String arrangements were always difficult for me, I'm preferring full orchestra over any kind of chamber like music. But that may change... That being said, I'm really into the SQ8 now, listened a lot of times to it. Which one would you recommend me to try next?

Of the string quartets, you mean?  № 12 in Db.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: John Copeland on December 24, 2011, 05:05:02 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 24, 2011, 09:46:30 AM
As does, Rostropovich. What a scorching performance with the LSO. He also did a good earlier one with National Symphony Orchestra on Teldec.

Shosty is a composer I never 'got'.  UNTIL NOW! Here is an extract from my journal last night...music notes have been written in my journal given the absence of GMG as I've been tussling with broadband provider problems for months...(now resolved)

"...Re Music:  I never got Shotakovich.  I got Bruckner alright, despite his symphonic massiveness, even some conductors find Bruckner heavy going, but I got him ok.  Shostakovich has always been a hard one for me, I could not sit with his difficult changing tempos and textures, something always felt jarring about his stuff.  Well, tonight I laid back and listened to his 8th Symphony in full, and got it straight away.  It was brilliant.  His 8th is a Masterpiece.  I switched on to it somewhat easier than ever, and this means more Shosty for the future!  (Version was from the Rostropovich set)..."
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 24, 2011, 05:23:34 AM
Quote from: John of Clydebank on December 24, 2011, 05:05:02 AM
Shosty is a composer I never 'got'.  UNTIL NOW! Here is an extract from my journal last night...music notes have been written in my journal given the absence of GMG as I've been tussling with broadband provider problems for months...(now resolved)

"...Re Music:  I never got Shotakovich.  I got Bruckner alright, despite his symphonic massiveness, even some conductors find Bruckner heavy going, but I got him ok.  Shostakovich has always been a hard one for me, I could not sit with his difficult changing tempos and textures, something always felt jarring about his stuff.  Well, tonight I laid back and listened to his 8th Symphony in full, and got it straight away.  It was brilliant.  His 8th is a Masterpiece.  I switched on to it somewhat easier than ever, and this means more Shosty for the future!  (Version was from the Rostropovich set)..."

Excellent, John! Shostakovich's 8th is darkly themed work. It's one of those works that made me go "Huh?" when I first heard it. But I've come to enjoy with repeated listening. You can't go wrong with Rostropovich in Shostakovich whether he's conducting or performing the Cello Concertos, he was dedicated to this composer's vision.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: John Copeland on December 24, 2011, 07:15:16 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 24, 2011, 05:23:34 AM
You can't go wrong with Rostropovich in Shostakovich whether he's conducting or performing the Cello Concertos, he was dedicated to this composer's vision.

Yes.  I watched a documentary a few months ago about Rostropovich.  He was very close to Shosty, and Shosty likewise.  It would be hard for any other conductor to get as close to an interpretation as Shosty wanted than Rostropovich.  I am currently seeking Rostropovich doing the Bach Cello Concertos.  If I had known about the likes of Rostropovich, Du Pre, Starker, Cassals and the like when I was learning Cello at secondary school, I would not have been so quick to 'lose' the damn Cello in favour of football...pah!   :-[
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on December 24, 2011, 12:39:27 PM
Quote from: John of Clydebank on December 24, 2011, 07:15:16 AM
Yes.  I watched a documentary a few months ago about Rostropovich.  He was very close to Shosty, and Shosty likewise.  It would be hard for any other conductor to get as close to an interpretation as Shosty wanted than Rostropovich.  I am currently seeking Rostropovich doing the Bach Cello Concertos.  If I had known about the likes of Rostropovich, Du Pre, Starker, Cassals and the like when I was learning Cello at secondary school, I would not have been so quick to 'lose' the damn Cello in favour of football...pah!   :-[

You mean the Bach Cello Suites, don't you?  The Bach Cello Concertos are, to put it mildly, extremely hard to locate :)  (And Rostropovich's take on the Suites seems to be one of the less favored ones here at GMG.)

Almost the first recordings of Shostakovich I heard were Rostropovich conducting Symphonies 8 and 11 on LSO Live, and they remain my favorite recordings of those symphonies.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: John Copeland on December 24, 2011, 12:52:48 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 24, 2011, 12:39:27 PM
You mean the Bach Cello Suites, don't you?  The Bach Cello Concertos are, to put it mildly, extremely hard to locate :)  (And Rostropovich's take on the Suites seems to be one of the less favored ones here at GMG.)

Almost the first recordings of Shostakovich I heard were Rostropovich conducting Symphonies 8 and 11 on LSO Live, and they remain my favorite recordings of those symphonies.

Yes Jeffrey, I did mean the Suites.  I don't even know if Bach wrote Cello Concertos.   :-[
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 25, 2011, 03:45:51 AM
Quote from: John of Clydebank on December 24, 2011, 07:15:16 AMYes.  I watched a documentary a few months ago about Rostropovich.  He was very close to Shosty, and Shosty likewise.  It would be hard for any other conductor to get as close to an interpretation as Shosty wanted than Rostropovich.
Kurt Sanderling? I prefer his recordings with Berlin Symphony Orchestra almost entirely.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 25, 2011, 05:57:28 AM
Quote from: John of Clydebank on December 24, 2011, 05:05:02 AM
Shosty is a composer I never 'got'.  UNTIL NOW! Here is an extract from my journal last night...music notes have been written in my journal given the absence of GMG as I've been tussling with broadband provider problems for months...(now resolved)

"...Re Music:  I never got Shotakovich.  I got Bruckner alright, despite his symphonic massiveness, even some conductors find Bruckner heavy going, but I got him ok.  Shostakovich has always been a hard one for me, I could not sit with his difficult changing tempos and textures, something always felt jarring about his stuff.  Well, tonight I laid back and listened to his 8th Symphony in full, and got it straight away.  It was brilliant.  His 8th is a Masterpiece.  I switched on to it somewhat easier than ever, and this means more Shosty for the future!  (Version was from the Rostropovich set)..."

Johnny-lad, good to see you!  And good to see you've come round with Dmitri Dmitriyevich : )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2012, 06:53:47 PM
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on December 25, 2011, 03:45:51 AM
Kurt Sanderling? I prefer his recordings with Berlin Symphony Orchestra almost entirely.

Yeah, even though the orchestra Sanderling is conducting is far from a first-rate ensemble, it's Sanderling who saves the day and inspires them to play as well as they can.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2012, 06:58:19 PM
I wonder how John is getting on now with Shostakovich. Any new developments, John?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: John Copeland on January 05, 2012, 03:45:26 AM
 :D

The latest development is a listening to Shosty 5 again from the Rostropovich set.  It seems something went wrong all those years of avoiding Shosty.  He was right when I studied him but wrong when I heard him.  Now, all of a sudden, his music makes perfect sense.  Couple of nights ago, the moody 5th was right on the money.  It is fair to say that Shosty is now my friend, and I'll go a long way with him this year.  I am concerned about the Babi Yar though.  I will have to find out what Babi Yar is all about.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 05, 2012, 03:46:37 AM
Interesting, Johnnie! Babi Yar was an early hit with me.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2012, 06:35:57 PM
Quote from: John of Clydebank on January 05, 2012, 03:45:26 AM
:D

The latest development is a listening to Shosty 5 again from the Rostropovich set.  It seems something went wrong all those years of avoiding Shosty.  He was right when I studied him but wrong when I heard him.  Now, all of a sudden, his music makes perfect sense.  Couple of nights ago, the moody 5th was right on the money.  It is fair to say that Shosty is now my friend, and I'll go a long way with him this year.  I am concerned about the Babi Yar though.  I will have to find out what Babi Yar is all about.

Oh, how I love the 5th. A wonderful symphony through and through. The Rostropovich performance is great. I own both of his recordings. The one with the LSO is especially good.

Babi Yar is an interesting symphony. If I recall, the mood is quite grim in this work, but I remember liking it. I think Shostakovich is a hard composer to get a grasp of because many times what is on the surface of the music is not always what the music is trying to express. But this is a quality I've come to admire about his music. It's mystery in other words.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Opus106 on January 05, 2012, 08:10:32 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2012, 06:35:57 PM
Oh, how I love the 5th. A wonderful symphony through and through. The Rostropovich performance is great. I own both of his recordings. The one with the LSO is especially good.

Both of the three? ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2012, 08:14:50 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on January 05, 2012, 08:10:32 PM
Both of the three? ;)

Whoops..you're so right, Opus. I forgot he did one on DG with the National Symphony Orchestra. I don't own this one. Is it good?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Opus106 on January 05, 2012, 08:22:42 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2012, 08:14:50 PM
Whoops..you're so right, Opus. I forgot he did one on DG with the National Symphony Orchestra. I don't own this one. Is it good?

Can't say, since I haven't heard the other two.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2012, 08:25:30 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on January 05, 2012, 08:22:42 PM
Can't say, since I haven't heard the other two.

Hmmm....looks like I won't be getting this performance any time soon as it's out-of-print and quite expensive.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Opus106 on January 05, 2012, 08:29:34 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2012, 08:25:30 PM
Hmmm....looks like I won't be getting this performance any time soon as it's out-of-print and quite expensive.

I have it as a part of the 8-CD set shown below:

[asin]B000M05VP2[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2012, 08:40:26 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on January 05, 2012, 08:29:34 PM
I have it as a part of the 8-CD set shown below:

[asin]B000M05VP2[/asin]

Oh, I see. Well, I'm not going to buy a box set for one performance. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2012, 09:49:47 PM
Has anyone heard/own this 3-CD set from Serebrier on Warner:

[asin]B002G1TSBS[/asin]

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2012, 06:17:21 PM
Re: John's Shostakovian Progression

John, have you heard Shosty's Symphony No. 8 yet? This is one hell of a symphony. I'm also curious as to which recordings you own or do you own a symphony cycle?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2012, 08:57:34 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 27, 2010, 09:45:27 AM

You should definitely listen to it as soon as possible, Karl. Have you heard this work before? The only other recording of this ballet in its complete form is on Chandos with Rozhdestvensky.

Edit: There's another recording of it, in complete form, on the Russian Disc label with Yuri Simonov conducting the Bolshoi Theatre Orchestra. So, there are only three recordings of this ballet in it's complete form.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Opus106 on January 07, 2012, 09:52:16 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 07, 2012, 06:17:21 PM
Re: John's Shostakovian Progression

John, have you heard Shosty's Symphony No. 8 yet? This is one hell of a symphony. I'm also curious as to which recordings you own or do you own a symphony cycle?

You should change your name to psychoticaboutshostakovich.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2012, 07:10:05 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on January 07, 2012, 09:52:16 PM
You should change your name to psychoticaboutshostakovich.

:P

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2012, 08:50:58 AM
Anyone else here own Dmitrij Kitajenko's Shostakovich cycle? I'm finding these interpretations really good and the cycle so far has been incredibly consistent (like Haitink's for example).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on January 08, 2012, 09:15:21 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 08, 2012, 07:10:05 AM
:P

You certainly couldn't be shyaboutshostakovich - and nor could I.

May I recommend kookooforkoechlin?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2012, 09:18:08 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 08, 2012, 09:15:21 AM
You certainly couldn't be shyaboutshostakovich - and nor could I.

May I recommend kookooforkoechlin?

Ha! Kookooforkoechlin, I like it! That should be a bumper sticker. :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Opus106 on January 08, 2012, 09:18:29 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 08, 2012, 09:15:21 AM
You certainly couldn't be shyaboutshostakovich - and nor could I.

May I recommend kookooforkoechlin?

bonkersaboutbartók.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 08, 2012, 05:56:31 PM
I know I asked this before but I still haven't received a response, but what do you Shostakovich fans think of his ballets: The Golden Age, The Bolt, and The Limpid Stream. I haven't heard The Limpid Stream, but The Bolt and The Golden Age are fantastic ballets full of such a diverse range of musical styles and both ballets contain some gorgeous lyrical slow sections.

For The Golden Age, there are three recordings of the complete ballet: Rozhdestvensky/Chandos, Simonov/Russian Disc, and Serebrier/Naxos. The Serebrier recording edges out Rozhdestvensky, but I have not heard Simonov's performance. For The Bolt, the only complete recording that I know of is Rozhdestvensky's. Hopefully, Serebrier will record this one too. He'd do really well with it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 11, 2012, 04:45:23 AM
The one I am hankerin' for is «Новый Вавилон».
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 14, 2012, 08:56:04 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 11, 2012, 04:45:23 AM
The one I am hankerin' for is «Новый Вавилон».

New Babylon? Wasn't there a new release on Naxos of the complete film score? That might be interesting...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 10:17:22 AM

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B004YZF09S.01.L.jpg)
D. Shostakovich / R. Schhedrin
Piano Concertos no.1 & 2 / no.5
D.Matsuev / V.Gergiev / Mariinsky Orchestra
Mariinsky Live SACD
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004YZF09S/goodmusicguide-20)
(Interestingly the second time Matsuev has recorded Schhedrin's 5th PC; the last time on Sony with Mariss Jansons (oop).)

Very good recording. Can't say I'm a Matsuev fan, nor particularly often fond of Gergiev -- but this is terrific. Better, me thinks (without direct comparison), than the Helmchen-Jurowski-LPO release I praised as being among the best of 2011. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/12/best-recordings-of-2011-1-10.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/12/best-recordings-of-2011-1-10.html)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 16, 2012, 01:41:11 PM
Bought these Shostakovich recordings the other day:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000HOL666.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B002G1TSBS.01.L.jpg)

(http://www.naxos.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/BIS-CD-973-74.jpg) (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/sept99/shos7BIS.jpg)

(http://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/9/2/c/e/7318599914831_300.jpg) (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Nov07/Shostakovich_9_12_bissacd1563.jpg)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Top0_xZayDU/TO8eicywyQI/AAAAAAAAEb4/dsC5zRgIb5Y/s1600/Shostakovich%2BSym%2B11%2BWigglesworth.jpg) (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/Sept01/Shostakovich14_Wigglesworth.jpg)

(http://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/9/1/3/1/7318599915531_300.jpg)

I'm real excited to hear these Wigglesworth recordings as I've heard good things about them. Anyone familar with them? Also, the film music is of particular interest to me as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 16, 2012, 01:41:11 PM

I'm real excited to hear these Wigglesworth recordings as I've heard good things about them. Anyone familar with them? Also, the film music is of particular interest to me as well.

I have Wiggle-8, 9, 12.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/01/shostakovichs-eighth-symphony.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/01/shostakovichs-eighth-symphony.html)
Hum-ho...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 16, 2012, 02:34:15 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 02:26:09 PM
I have Wiggle-8, 9, 12.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/01/shostakovichs-eighth-symphony.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/01/shostakovichs-eighth-symphony.html)
Hum-ho...

I'm excited about the Wigglesworth and get a British slant on Shostakovich. I've never been too impressed with Gergiev's Shostakovich recordings, but have you heard his newer recordings on the Mariinsky label?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 02:38:18 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 16, 2012, 02:34:15 PM
I'm excited about the Wigglesworth and get a British slant on Shostakovich. I've never been too impressed with Gergiev's Shostakovich recordings, but have you heard his newer recordings on the Mariinsky label?

Yes. Was underwhelmed by the "War Symphonies" on Philips, for the most part... except for the 5/9 coupling. Not particularly impressed by the new ones, either, but not found them particularly lacking, either. Ho-humm again.
:-) Nor his DSCH-live so far. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/11/gergievs-munich-shostakovich-symphonies.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/11/gergievs-munich-shostakovich-symphonies.html)
But then Gergiev is unpredictable... and just when you expect a dud, he comes up with a real hit.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 16, 2012, 03:21:08 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 02:38:18 PMBut then Gergiev is unpredictable... and just when you expect a dud, he comes up with a real hit.

Which is why I never paid much attention to him --- unpredictable. I look for consistency in conducting.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 16, 2012, 05:48:38 PM
Just bought:

[asin]B000I8OIHK[/asin]

I still have my eye on the Kondrashin and Caetani.

I now have the following cycles: Kitajenko, Haitink, Barshai, Jansons, Rostropovich, Ashkenazy, and now M. Shostakovich

Missing: Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky, Caetani
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 17, 2012, 10:33:59 AM
I'm not sure if this has been asked, but what are your top 10 favorite works by Shosty?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on January 17, 2012, 10:54:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 17, 2012, 10:33:59 AM
I'm not sure if this has been asked, but what are your top 10 favorite works by Shosty?
In no particular order*:

1. Symphony #10
2. Violin Concerto #1
3. Lady Macbeth of the Mstensk District
4. Cello Concerto #1
5.  String Quartert #13
6. Execution of Stepin Razin
7. Piano Trio #2 in E Minor
8. Suite on Words of Michelangelo
9. Symphony #7
10. Violin Concerto #2

*Subject to Change
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 17, 2012, 11:10:05 AM
Quote from: paulrbass on January 17, 2012, 10:54:36 AM
In no particular order*:

1. Symphony #10
2. Violin Concerto #1
3. Lady Macbeth of the Mstensk District
4. Cello Concerto #1
5.  String Quartert #13
6. Execution of Stepin Razin
7. Piano Trio #2 in E Minor
8. Suite on Words of Michelangelo
9. Symphony #7
10. Violin Concerto #2

*Subject to Change

I have yet to listen to The Execution of Stepin Razin. I hope to change this very soon. Lady Macbeth is great. Haven't listened to Piano Trio No. 2 yet, but of Shosty's chamber works I really like his Piano Quintet. I like all of the concerti but really need to revisit the ones for cello as it's been too long since I listened to them. Symphony No. 7 is an interesting choice. I like the work but it hasn't completely won me over yet. What is it about this symphony that you enjoy?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 17, 2012, 11:24:10 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 17, 2012, 10:33:59 AM
I'm not sure if this has been asked, but what are your top 10 favorite works by Shosty?

1. Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
2. Symphony #4
3. Symphony #9
4. Symphony #15
5. String Quartet #7
6. String Quartet #15
7: Cello Concerto #2
8. Violin Concerto #1
9. Viola Sonata op.147
10. 24 Preludes and Fugues


Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on January 17, 2012, 11:32:57 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 17, 2012, 11:10:05 AM
I have yet to listen to The Execution of Stepin Razin. I hope to change this very soon. Lady Macbeth is great. Haven't listening to Piano Trio No. 2 yet, but of Shosty's chamber works I really like his Piano Quintet. I like all of the concerti but really need to revisit the ones for cello as it's been too long since I listened to them. Symphony No. 7 is an interesting choice. I like the work but it hasn't completely won me over yet. What is it about this symphony that you enjoy?
Some of my choices are changeable with other works, and sometimes are captive to what I am listening to....

But the 7th, I find that the 3rd movement is one of the most beautiful movements in his music, especially with the form, sort of ABA, where the first section is very calm, beautiful,  where the 2nd section is hectic. 

I may be alone on this, but I love the first movement, specifically the march theme, and when it gets out of that theme.  I just think there's something magical about that part, even though it is Bolero-like (Though done much better than Bolero, IMO), as it gets to the point of tension with being a bit of annoyance, there's just something I really like about that section.

And the transition between the third and fourth movements......
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 17, 2012, 11:42:51 AM
Quote from: paulrbass on January 17, 2012, 11:32:57 AM
Some of my choices are changeable with other works, and sometimes are captive to what I am listening to....

But the 7th, I find that the 3rd movement is one of the most beautiful movements in his music, especially with the form, sort of ABA, where the first section is very calm, beautiful,  where the 2nd section is hectic. 

I may be alone on this, but I love the first movement, specifically the march theme, and when it gets out of that theme.  I just think there's something magical about that part, even though it is Bolero-like (Though done much better than Bolero, IMO), as it gets to the point of tension with being a bit of annoyance, there's just something I really like about that section.

And the transition between the third and fourth movements......

Yeah, I like third movement is quite beautiful I agree. The first movement is very cool and, yes, it outdoes Bolero, which I never have liked. Good to read your comments. I always found the first movement of the 6th especially moving, especially towards the end. Quite a contrast to the 5th, which is what Shosty wanted.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on January 17, 2012, 11:45:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 17, 2012, 11:42:51 AM
Yeah, I like third movement is quite beautiful I agree. The first movement is very cool and, yes, it outdoes Bolero, which I never have liked. Good to read your comments. I always found the first movement of the 6th especially moving, especially towards the end. Quite a contrast to the 5th, which is what Shosty wanted.
On the Bernstein DVD of the 6th, he describes the first movement as a sort of sequel to Tchaik 6.  Interesting comparison there.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 17, 2012, 11:47:00 AM
Quote from: paulrbass on January 17, 2012, 11:45:31 AM
On the Bernstein DVD of the 6th, he describes the first movement as a sort of sequel to Tchaik 6.  Interesting comparison there.

Hmmm...I need that DVD! (going to buy immediately)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on January 17, 2012, 11:48:57 AM
Much same as Sarge's; in no order

Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
Symphony #4
Symphony #9
Symphony #15
String Quartet #1
String Quartet #3
String Quartet #11
24 Preludes and Fugues
Piano Trio #2
Piano Concerto No.2
[Something obvious I'm probably overlooking right now.]

Quote from: paulrbass on January 17, 2012, 11:45:31 AM
On the Bernstein DVD of the 6th, he describes the first movement as a sort of sequel to Tchaik 6.  Interesting comparison there.

Not that that even helped a lick in my 'getting' the Sixth... :-)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 17, 2012, 12:06:03 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 17, 2012, 11:48:57 AM
String Quartet #3

Almost made my list.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on January 17, 2012, 03:43:04 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 17, 2012, 11:48:57 AM
Much same as Sarge's;

Neither of you like the 10th symphony!?  One of the greatest symphonies of the 20th century!?! :o
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 17, 2012, 04:01:06 PM
Quote from: DavidW on January 17, 2012, 03:43:04 PM
Neither of you like the 10th symphony!?  One of the greatest symphonies of the 20th century!?! :o

Why do you find this so strange? I personally love the 10th, but I think, to be honest, every Shostakvoich symphony is worth hearing and some many, many times over. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on January 17, 2012, 04:10:44 PM
DavidW: but choosing only ten Shosty works is so hard!

Quote from: jlaurson on January 17, 2012, 11:48:57 AM
Piano Concerto No.2

I'm glad someone else is showing a little love for this piece! It's so miniature and so light on the surface that it easily gets lost amid the profundity of the rest...

...that said, my current eight are...
Symphonies 6, 9, 10
String Quartet 8
Cello Concerto 1
Piano Concerto 2
24 Preludes and Fugues
Piano Quintet

I can't post a top ten yet because I have yet to hear many of the quartets, half the symphonies (still to go: 2-4, 8, 12-15), and Lady Macbeth, though I saw a scene of Lady on YouTube and thought it was astonishing.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 17, 2012, 04:19:34 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 17, 2012, 04:10:44 PMI can't post a top ten yet because I have yet to hear half the symphonies (still to go: 2-4, 8, 12-15)

Wow, you've got a lot of listening to do then. Symphony No. 8 is an astonishing work. This should be the next symphony you hear, Brian. But I warn you, it's quite ominus and brooding, but not without it's moments of radiant light. The first movement alone contains some of the most haunting music Shostakovich has ever written.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on January 17, 2012, 04:28:38 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 17, 2012, 04:10:44 PM
DavidW: but choosing only ten Shosty works is so hard!

Yeah I'll try myself but I think my list will be rubbish because I don't really have all of his works firmly in mind:

1. Symphony 10
2. Symphony 8
3. Symphony 5
4. String Quartet 8
5. Piano Quintet
6. Viola Sonata
7. String Quartet 13
8. Violin Concerto 2
9. Jazz Suite 2
10. Cello Concerto 1
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on January 17, 2012, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 17, 2012, 04:19:34 PM
Wow, you've got a lot of listening to do then. Symphony No. 8 is an astonishing work. This should be the next symphony you hear, Brian. But I warn you, it's quite ominus and brooding, but not without it's moments of radiant light. The first movement alone contains some of the most haunting music Shostakovich has ever written.

Awesome!  Good to find another symphony #8 lover.  It took me awhile to crack that nut but it became one of my favorite symphonies when I did.  I think Mravinsky got me into that.  I like it even more than the 5th!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 17, 2012, 04:51:58 PM
Quote from: DavidW on January 17, 2012, 04:30:46 PM
Awesome!  Good to find another symphony #8 lover.  It took me awhile to crack that nut but it became one of my favorite symphonies when I did.  I think Mravinsky got me into that.  I like it even more than the 5th!

Yeah, it's a great symphony. I'm trying to remember the first performance of the 8th I heard and I think it may have been either Barshai or Haitink. I can't remember, but back then it was a very difficult listen for me because of it's dark, repressed mood, but now I think it's one of the most brilliant symphonies I've heard. I guess it took listening to Pettersson's 7th and Berg's Three Pieces for Orchestra and Violin Concerto to come to fully appreciate it. 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on January 17, 2012, 04:59:15 PM
Quote from: DavidW on January 17, 2012, 04:30:46 PMI like it even more than the 5th!

Hmm, I like 6, 9, and 10 more than the 5th!

I do have a complete cycle (Barshai) and V. Petrenko's 8th as well. I think I have Previn's 4th around, too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 17, 2012, 05:01:27 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 17, 2012, 04:59:15 PM
Hmm, I like 6, 9, and 10 more than the 5th!

I do have a complete cycle (Barshai) and V. Petrenko's 8th as well. I think I have Previn's 4th around, too.

What's taking you so long to listen to the 8th? My goodness man quit talking and start listening!!! :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on January 17, 2012, 05:11:46 PM
Quote from: DavidW on January 17, 2012, 04:30:46 PM
Awesome!  Good to find another symphony #8 lover.  It took me awhile to crack that nut but it became one of my favorite symphonies when I did.  I think Mravinsky got me into that.  I like it even more than the 5th!
the 8th is consistently of the rotation of what is my second favorite Shostakovich statement :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on January 17, 2012, 08:09:20 PM
Quote from: paulrbass on January 17, 2012, 05:11:46 PM
the 8th is consistently of the rotation of what is my second favorite Shostakovich statement :D

Awesome! :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 18, 2012, 02:54:35 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 17, 2012, 03:43:04 PM
Neither of you like the 10th symphony!?  One of the greatest symphonies of the 20th century!?! :o

I like about 50% of it. Love the Allegro but the Moderato opening movement bores me to death. The last two movements have their moments but not enough to sway me. I have no trouble with your description of the symphony. After the Fifth, it's probably his most popular symphony. Even conductors who don't normally conduct much Shosty (like Karajan) have recorded it. The work is respected. It just happens to be one of those masterpieces that, for some reason, fails to hold my interest. I keep trying though. I have eight Tenths in my collection, including the newish Petrenko. Maybe one day it will click. I'll listen again this morning.

Quote from: DavidW on January 17, 2012, 04:30:46 PM
Awesome!  Good to find another symphony #8 lover.

I love it too. It was one of my picks in the symphony poll (4, 8, 9, 14, 15). It doesn't make my top ten here because there is so much more to Shostakovich. I'm fascinated, haunted by, actually, the music he wrote at the end of his life: the Violin and Viola Sonatas, the last quartets, the final symphonies.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 18, 2012, 04:29:30 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 17, 2012, 04:10:44 PM
DavidW: but choosing only ten Shosty works is so hard!

This.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 18, 2012, 04:34:44 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 18, 2012, 04:29:30 AM
This.

True. It is much easier for me to pick, say, my two least favorite Shostakovich symphonies than pick two favorites.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 18, 2012, 04:36:18 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 17, 2012, 04:59:15 PM
. . . I think I have Previn's 4th around, too.

Mmm, with Chicago? That's a sentimental fave of mine.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 18, 2012, 04:36:54 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 18, 2012, 04:34:44 AM
True. It is much easier for me to pick, say, my two least favorite Shostakovich symphonies than pick two favorites.

Again, you speak sooth, Sarge.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 18, 2012, 04:39:52 AM
I am astonied that the opening movement of the Tenth eludes you, Sarge! We can still be mates, of course . . . but I cain't figger it . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 18, 2012, 04:45:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 18, 2012, 04:39:52 AM
I am astonied that the opening movement of the Tenth eludes you, Sarge! We can still be mates, of course . . . but I cain't figger it . . . .

I can't figure it out either, Karl. I have no trouble with most other long, relatively slow Shostakovich movements. Why the Tenth eludes me, bores me for most of its length, is a puzzle. It did go better today. My mind wandered less than usual. Perhaps it's finally growing on me. As always, the end of the symphony had me grinning (in pleasure)...and not only because the symphony was finally over  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on January 18, 2012, 04:49:28 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 17, 2012, 10:33:59 AMI'm not sure if this has been asked, but what are your top 10 favorite works by Shosty?
Very likely it has been asked :). Top 4:

1: Symphony No. 11 and No. 5, I cannot decide. Ending of mvmt. 1 of Sym. 5 is a fucking masterpiece.
3: Symphony No. 8
4: SQ8

... Symphony No. 10 ranking...somewhere... Not so extreme love for it like others...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 18, 2012, 04:57:34 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 18, 2012, 04:45:40 AM
. . . Why the Tenth eludes me, bores me for most of its length, is a puzzle.

Please, tell me it's not the long-breathed clarinet solos! ; )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: not edward on January 18, 2012, 08:34:56 AM
As someone who's a bit more DSCH-agnostic than many here, there are still a few works that for me stand out (mostly late ones):

Symphony #4, for the way it takes off from where Mahler left off, has the 'wow' factor but plenty to say that is less obvious.
Cello Concerto #2; easily my favourite of the concerti, at least in part due to its refusal to give easy answers to the questions it poses.
The 12th string quartet's incredible sense of purpose, and ultimately defiant ending ring very true to me.
And of course the 15th symphony, enigmatic and dark, yet witty, and again avoiding easy answers.

However, if there's a single DSCH work I have to take, it'd have to be the 14th symphony--surely one of the few 20th century works of its kind to stand with Das Lied von der Erde. It does seem to sum up Shostakovich's vocal world well; the obvious influences of Mahler, Mussorgsky, Berg and Britten are fully synthesised together (with a few finishing touches from DSCH's own students). I don't find the completely bleak nature of the work problematical, as some critics do; indeed I find its emotional narrative most compelling: the gloom of the first two songs broken up by the dramatic nature of Lorelei; the first four Apollinaire settings building up a claustrophobic atmosphere that explodes into the rage of The Zaphorozian Cossacks' reply to the Sultan, followed by consolation in O Delvig, Delvig, acceptance in The Poet's Death and ... well, I'm not sure what in the last movement.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 18, 2012, 06:21:11 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 18, 2012, 02:54:35 AM...there is so much more to Shostakovich.

Amen brother. I've been trying to tell all you guys to listen to The Bolt and The Golden Age, but, as usual, nobody listens to me. :) I think, in the ballet tradition, these are really fine works. They contain some just really gorgeous music and, of course, some of that great Shostakovich panache.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 23, 2012, 10:35:25 PM
Well it looks like our resident Scots John has purchased the Haitink Shostakovich set. I think he's going to love it! As I told him, the performances of the 5th, 8th, and 11th are still some of the best I've heard on record. I like Haitink's 6th and 9th a lot too. Great cycle. If this doesn't make a Shostakovich fan out of John, I don't know what will! 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 02, 2012, 05:07:34 PM
I've been digging my through this set:

(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/CART_47850_SA__36567__01152009115243-1982.jpg)

When I first read about this set, I was pretty skeptical of how a Swiss conductor of Ukranian/Italian descent was going to handle Shostakovich's symphonies, then I read that he is the son of famous conductor/composer Igor Markevitch and after I read this, I became a little more interested. One of the oddest things about this set is that Caetani is conducting an Italian orchestra: the Orchestra Sinfonica di Milano Giuseppe Verdi. But all of my doubts were cast aside when I heard the 6th from this set. All I have to say is it's outstanding and the playing from this orchestra is awesome. This orchestra may not be the Berliners or Concertgebouw, but it's playing is especially fine.

Those looking for another Shostakovich symphony cycle, then look no further. This one is definitely a keeper!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on February 02, 2012, 05:47:58 PM
I've heard good things about this but am waiting for a bargain issue :(
This same orchestra recorded the chamber symphonies under Barshai, though I suspect the audio is nowhere near the current release.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 02, 2012, 05:54:04 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on February 02, 2012, 05:47:58 PM
I've heard good things about this but am waiting for a bargain issue :(
This same orchestra recorded the chamber symphonies under Barshai, though I suspect the audio is nowhere near the current release.

Yeah, I bought this set for $70 I believe, which was the cheapest I've seen it. If you wait around awhile, the price could come down. The set is expensive, but look at what some box sets are going for (i. e. Wagner Ring sets). :o
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 02, 2012, 06:38:53 PM
This is incredibly moving...Bernstein at his finest:

http://www.youtube.com/v/LpsfTdB4TCI&feature=related
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on February 03, 2012, 08:56:28 AM
Haitink+Concertgebouw are really great with Symphonies Nos. 11 (my favorite #11) and 8, but someone mentioned #5. Well, I don't like it. Especially when it comes to the endings of the first and last movement, the tempi are just - strange. Too variable, to insanely fast, also I recognized some instruments entering not exactly at the right time. No - Sanderling/BSO rocks.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 03, 2012, 07:43:47 PM
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on February 03, 2012, 08:56:28 AM
Haitink+Concertgebouw are really great with Symphonies Nos. 11 (my favorite #11) and 8, but someone mentioned #5. Well, I don't like it. Especially when it comes to the endings of the first and last movement, the tempi are just - strange. Too variable, to insanely fast, also I recognized some instruments entering not exactly at the right time. No - Sanderling/BSO rocks.

I happen to like the Haitink 5th recording. One of the most moving Largo movements on record. Haitink was not just good in the 8th and 11th. I think he nailed the 2nd, 6th, and 9th too. My favorite 10th is still Rattle/CBSO. Karajan's is great too. I actually really liked Kitajenko's too. Everybody has their preferences though.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: nesf on February 04, 2012, 03:55:53 PM
So CC No. 2 is very interesting. I'd like to know a bit more about the many things going on in it, where do I start reading? :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: KeithW on February 05, 2012, 02:35:51 AM
Quote from: nesf on February 04, 2012, 03:55:53 PM
So CC No. 2 is very interesting. I'd like to know a bit more about the many things going on in it, where do I start reading? :D

Depends what you have access to, and how much you want to read.  Grove is generally a good starting point, but it can be pricey if you don't have access through a good library (the online is much better than the old print version).

Otherwise, dig around on the Web.  A number of record companies make their CD booklets freely available - Hyperion is very good on this score, as are a number of record companies that sell through services like eclassical.com and theclassicalshop.net - try this to get an idea: http://www.theclassicalshop.net/download_booklet.aspx?file=CHAN%205093.pdf (http://www.theclassicalshop.net/download_booklet.aspx?file=CHAN%205093.pdf) 

Look out for concert programme notes on the web too - this is becoming very common - for example: http://www.kennedy-center.org/calendar/?fuseaction=composition&composition_id=3749 (http://www.kennedy-center.org/calendar/?fuseaction=composition&composition_id=3749)

And closer to home, some expert analysis is available at http://www.good-music-guide.com/reviews/104-shostakovich-cello.htm (http://www.good-music-guide.com/reviews/104-shostakovich-cello.htm)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: nesf on February 05, 2012, 05:34:42 AM
Thank you. I assume the Concise Grove isn't worth a damn for this kind of stuff outside of the most major composers?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: KeithW on February 05, 2012, 10:37:41 AM
Quote from: nesf on February 05, 2012, 05:34:42 AM
Thank you. I assume the Concise Grove isn't worth a damn for this kind of stuff outside of the most major composers?

My general advice with concise stuff is that it depends on your starting knowledge base, how much detail you want and how much you expect your interest to grow in the future.  My recollection is that the new edition of Grove came out around ten years ago - in 20 or so volumes - but that the latest concise Grove was quite a few years before then.  In other words, the latest Grove concise preceded the current full work.  If you really want the concise Grove, go for it - it is reasonably priced - but be aware of the date.

There are other options for the concise approach, especially if you are happy with a Kindle edition.  I bought the 5 volume Oxford history of western music for the Kindle - a bargain at around GBP30 from the UK Kindle store.  Much lighter than the five volumes which come in at around 3,500 pages in print!

[asin]B004H0N71S[/asin]

You can also look at individual volumes of the full Cambridge or Oxford histories - perhaps the 20th century Cambridge if you really want to read up on that period.  But they tend to be print only, and not cheap.  I'd really advise looking at a selection of these in a library or bookstore before investing too much cash.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: nesf on February 05, 2012, 11:19:33 AM
Quote from: KeithW on February 05, 2012, 10:37:41 AM
My general advice with concise stuff is that it depends on your starting knowledge base, how much detail you want and how much you expect your interest to grow in the future.  My recollection is that the new edition of Grove came out around ten years ago - in 20 or so volumes - but that the latest concise Grove was quite a few years before then.  In other words, the latest Grove concise preceded the current full work.  If you really want the concise Grove, go for it - it is reasonably priced - but be aware of the date.

There are other options for the concise approach, especially if you are happy with a Kindle edition.  I bought the 5 volume Oxford history of western music for the Kindle - a bargain at around GBP30 from the UK Kindle store.  Much lighter than the five volumes which come in at around 3,500 pages in print!

[asin]B004H0N71S[/asin]

You can also look at individual volumes of the full Cambridge or Oxford histories - perhaps the 20th century Cambridge if you really want to read up on that period.  But they tend to be print only, and not cheap.  I'd really advise looking at a selection of these in a library or bookstore before investing too much cash.

Hmm, unfortunately Irish people have to use the US store which isn't so favourably priced for that set. Still the set is less than £60 in hardcopy on .co.uk which is reasonable enough for reference set (we've 3 bookshelves filled with academic books/dictionaries/etc here so such prices are not alien to me, I've paid *far* more for a single volume in the past). Unfortunately my local bookstores here are pretty poor when it comes to music (and other specialist interests). Thanks for the recommendations though, I'll download some samples from the Kindle store to get a feel for the writing style etc.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 14, 2012, 07:47:19 PM
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on February 03, 2012, 08:56:28 AM
Haitink+Concertgebouw are really great with Symphonies Nos. 11 (my favorite #11) and 8, but someone mentioned #5. Well, I don't like it. Especially when it comes to the endings of the first and last movement, the tempi are just - strange. Too variable, to insanely fast, also I recognized some instruments entering not exactly at the right time. No - Sanderling/BSO rocks.

I would go so far as to say Bernstein's 1979 performance of the 5th is now my favorite of them all. Everything is just right or at least sounds right to me. The Largo is so emotional and deeply felt that it has made me question previous favorites of mine.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2012, 07:38:27 AM
WAHOOO!!! JUST BOUGHT MY NINTH SHOSTAKOVICH SYMPHONY CYCLE!!!!


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ITXXeJpaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Bought this set for $57 + shipping. A far cry from the $100+ price tag! Can't wait to hear these legendary performances!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 16, 2012, 07:41:49 AM
That is an excellent price. I forget now just what I paid for it . . . might have been $79 incl. shipping.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2012, 07:45:54 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 16, 2012, 07:41:49 AM
That is an excellent price. I forget now just what I paid for it . . . might have been $79 incl. shipping.

That's a good price too, Karl.

Yeah, it really is a great price and Kondrashin's cycle was one of the only ones I was missing. To those who don't have it, there are two listings on Amazon for this set. The import listing is the one for $57 from an Amazon MP seller.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on February 16, 2012, 10:11:20 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 16, 2012, 07:41:49 AM
That is an excellent price. I forget now just what I paid for it . . . might have been $79 incl. shipping.

That was exactly what I paid for mine... was yours Aulos too?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 16, 2012, 10:17:38 AM
No, the 11-disc Melodia box.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on February 16, 2012, 03:49:18 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 16, 2012, 07:38:27 AM(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ITXXeJpaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Bought this set for $57 + shipping. A far cry from the $100+ price tag! Can't wait to hear these legendary performances!

And in terrible sound! ;)

I have the Venezia issue, which I think is now OOP.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: not edward on February 16, 2012, 06:09:48 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on February 16, 2012, 03:49:18 PM
And in terrible sound! ;)
It's a Melodiya recording: can't expect anything else. ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2012, 06:34:33 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on February 16, 2012, 03:49:18 PM
And in terrible sound! ;)

I have the Venezia issue, which I think is now OOP.

Well it's my ninth Shostakovich symphony cycle. Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky were the ones I was missing. Now, I'm only missing one. 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: not edward on February 16, 2012, 06:46:12 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 16, 2012, 06:34:33 PM
Well it's my ninth Shostakovich symphony cycle. Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky were the ones I was missing. Now, I'm only missing one. 8)
With those two, I'd say you might have saved (performance-wise; most definitely not sonically) the best for last.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2012, 06:59:10 PM
Quote from: edward on February 16, 2012, 06:46:12 PM
With those two, I'd say you might have saved (performance-wise; most definitely not sonically) the best for last.

:D Ha! I've been wanting the Kondrashin for a long time, but it I never saw it for a decent price. The Rozhdestvensky is another one that's just really expensive. Hopefully, I'll see it for a good price at some point. I would like to pickup Rozhdestvensky's Prokofiev symphony cycle at some point too since I already own most of his Prokofiev ballet recordings.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on February 16, 2012, 07:16:22 PM
Quote from: edward on February 16, 2012, 06:46:12 PM
With those two, I'd say you might have saved (performance-wise; most definitely not sonically) the best for last.

I'm afraid I found Rozhdestvensky's cycle strangely underwhelming for the most part. Not as hardbitten as Kondrashin, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2012, 07:22:42 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on February 16, 2012, 07:16:22 PM
I'm afraid I found Rozhdestvensky's cycle strangely underwhelming for the most part. Not as hardbitten as Kondrashin, that's for sure.

What cycles do you own, eyeresist?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on February 16, 2012, 08:00:22 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 16, 2012, 07:22:42 PM
What cycles do you own, eyeresist?

Kondrashin
Mravinsky (incomplete)
Jansons
Barshai
Rozhdestvensky
Slovak (it was cheap!)

- in order of preference. I think that's all of them. I always give preference to the Russians.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2012, 08:08:22 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on February 16, 2012, 08:00:22 PM
Kondrashin
Mravinsky (incomplete)
Jansons
Barshai
Rozhdestvensky
Slovak (it was cheap!)

- in order of preference. I think that's all of them. I always give preference to the Russians.

I'm surprised you don't own Haitink's set. I think he's an excellent Shostakovich conductor. Much better than I thought he was going to be. Kitajenko and Caetani are also quite good. My preference for these two (Kitajenko/Caetani) goes to Caetani who I think plays with more gusto and passion. I think Kitajenko did an excellent job with the 2nd, 8th, 11th, and 14th though. Caetani does a remarkable job with the 6th, 9th, 10th, 11th, and 15th. No cycle is perfect though. They all have flaws, but I'm really impressed with Caetani both performance-wise and audio quality. Kitajenko's cycle sounds remarkably good too, but I think Caetani's Italian forces have a more remarkable string section with a darker tone.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on February 16, 2012, 08:19:44 PM
I know Haitink has a good reputation in this music, but based on my limited experience he is not for me. I have a disc of him in the 5th and 9th - great playing and sound, but I felt the 5th lacked drive. I just want something more manic, more hysterical, more tasteless in these symphonies (the other works are a separate case). Is this a limited view? Maybe....

I will acquire further cycles when the opportunity presents.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2012, 08:23:44 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on February 16, 2012, 08:19:44 PM
I know Haitink has a good reputation in this music, but based on my limited experience he is not for me. I have a disc of him in the 5th and 9th - great playing and sound, but I felt the 5th lacked drive. I just want something more manic, more hysterical, more tasteless in these symphonies (the other works are a separate case). Is this a limited view? Maybe....

I will acquire further cycles when the opportunity presents.

Haitink's 8th and 11th are some of the best around IMHO. I also really dig his 2nd and 6th. I agree that his 5th isn't that great, especially after hearing Bernstein's 1979 performance with the New York Philharmonic. Haitink sounds uninspired by comparison. Yes, I think just hearing Haitink's 5th and 9th gives you a limited view of his overall cycle especially considering those are two of the weakest performances of the whole cycle.

I listened to some of Jansons's cycle last week and it almost made me want to throw the box set through the window! I really hate that cycle. I got it for free so I can't complain, but still I mean talk about uninspired....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on February 16, 2012, 10:56:36 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 16, 2012, 08:23:44 PMI listened to some of Jansons's cycle last week and it almost made me want to throw the box set through the window! I really hate that cycle. I got it for free so I can't complain, but still I mean talk about uninspired....

Oh, feel free to complain, it's what we're here for :D

Yes, I think this set was discussed earlier, which I guess convinced you to get it. As I said then, I thought 1, 9, 10 and 15 were good, but the rest insipid.  Maybe give the numbers I mentioned another go some time (unless they were the ones you especially hated).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 17, 2012, 03:29:16 AM
Oh not the Eighth! Jansons' Eighth with Pittsburgh is mighty fine
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 17, 2012, 04:05:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 16, 2012, 08:23:44 PM
Haitink's 8th and 11th are some of the best around IMHO. I also really dig his 2nd and 6th. I agree that his 5th isn't that great, especially after hearing Bernstein's 1979 performance with the New York Philharmonic. Haitink sounds uninspired by comparison. Yes, I think just hearing Haitink's 5th and 9th gives you a limited view of his overall cycle especially considering those are two of the weakest performances of the whole cycle.

I listened to some of Jansons's cycle last week and it almost made me want to throw the box set through the window! I really hate that cycle. I got it for free so I can't complain, but still I mean talk about uninspired....


Wait! Ill be in Atlanta in 2 weeks, then you can throw it out of the window!!! I'll catch it!!  ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 17, 2012, 04:19:19 AM
 Quote from: edward on February 16, 2012, 11:09:48 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=164.msg602232#msg602232)
It's a Melodiya recording: can't expect anything else. ;)
 
It's a fair cop.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 17, 2012, 04:23:13 AM
 Quote from: eyeresist on Today at 01:19:44 AM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=164.msg602255#msg602255)
. . . I just want something more manic, more hysterical, more tasteless in these symphonies . . . .
 
It was your word, mate . . . just wanted to observe that (a) I don't believe that Shostakovich is at all well served with a tasteless interpretational bent, and (b) "more manic, more hysterical, more tasteless" is just exactly what he was not trying to achieve with the Fifth, as it is just exactly what would have got him packed onto a cattle car headed east into Siberia.

If you've not noted afore, I am profoundly out of sympathy with any demand for lurid Shostakovich interpretation. Strikes me as little better than voyeurism.  YMMV . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 17, 2012, 07:04:42 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on February 16, 2012, 10:56:36 PM
Oh, feel free to complain, it's what we're here for :D

Yes, I think this set was discussed earlier, which I guess convinced you to get it. As I said then, I thought 1, 9, 10 and 15 were good, but the rest insipid.  Maybe give the numbers I mentioned another go some time (unless they were the ones you especially hated).

I've owned the Jansons set for a couple of years, so any discussion we've had about it was prior to me purchasing it. Yeah, I remember going to through the whole cycle and not being taken by it. I listened to the 5th and 6th last week and it kind of put me in a bad mood because I was just disappointed. But I'll listen to the 8th, which Karl recommends, and I'll listen to the 10th, maybe these performances will shake off some of that negative residue I've had for many years regarding this set.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 17, 2012, 07:08:18 AM
Yes, that Tenth with the Phila Orchestra is one of my favorite recordings of the piece, John.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 17, 2012, 07:09:28 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 17, 2012, 04:05:48 AM

Wait! Ill be in Atlanta in 2 weeks, then you can throw it out of the window!!! I'll catch it!!  ;D

:P

The only problem is I don't live in Atlanta, Greg. I just use Atlanta as a point of reference when somebody from out of state or in another country asks me where I'm from. I'm actually 45 miles NE of Atlanta.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 17, 2012, 07:10:26 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2012, 07:08:18 AM
Yes, that Tenth with the Phila Orchestra is one of my favorite recordings of the piece, John.

I like the Philadelphia Orchestra a lot. I'll give this one a fresh listen in due time. Thanks my friend.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 17, 2012, 08:47:43 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 17, 2012, 07:09:28 AM
:P

The only problem is I don't live in Atlanta, Greg. I just use Atlanta as a point of reference when somebody from out of state or in another country asks me where I'm from. I'm actually 45 miles NE of Atlanta.


Then throw it far!!  ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 17, 2012, 08:50:48 AM
. . . a long, long way to run . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 17, 2012, 08:54:37 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 17, 2012, 07:09:28 AM
:P

The only problem is I don't live in Atlanta, Greg. I just use Atlanta as a point of reference when somebody from out of state or in another country asks me where I'm from. I'm actually 45 miles NE of Atlanta.


And same here, I'll be in Tyrone, GA which is about 25 miles south of ATL.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 17, 2012, 09:01:33 AM
Well, some day you'll meet in the middle and hear some live Henningmusick.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 17, 2012, 09:07:21 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2012, 09:01:33 AM
Well, some day you'll meet in the middle and hear some live Henningmusick.

I really hope this happens, Karl. I enjoy nothing more than "live" performances and would be thrilled to see Henningmusick.

Just don't be disappointed when you realize I'm really not a sock monkey  :o
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 17, 2012, 11:00:36 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 17, 2012, 08:54:37 AM

And same here, I'll be in Tyrone, GA which is about 25 miles south of ATL.

I've never been to Tyrone, GA sad to say, so I'm not sure what I'm missing or not missing. :)

Karl, if you're ever down in GA let me know, we'll have to arrange some time to hang out with each other. Do you like aquariums? Atlanta has the Georgia Aquarium which is home to some exotic and not-so-exotic animals. Oh and Greg can come too! ;) :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 17, 2012, 11:07:39 AM
I like aquaria, sounds like fun even if Greg is not really a sock monkey . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 17, 2012, 11:23:42 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2012, 11:07:39 AM
I like aquaria, sounds like fun even if Greg is not really a sock monkey . . . .

:P
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 17, 2012, 08:45:50 PM
Bought this (Gergiev, 5 CD set) for $29 + shipping through Arkivmusic (first time using their site):

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fQnm-r7zLX8/Tfjq4MJUJcI/AAAAAAAAB00/9Lomb5fWkpc/s1600/Front%252843%2529.jpg)

I'm not a big Gergiev fan, as everybody knows, but I couldn't pass on this great offer.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on February 18, 2012, 05:39:02 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 17, 2012, 08:45:50 PM
Bought this (Gergiev, 5 CD set) for $29 + shipping through Arkivmusic (first time using their site):

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fQnm-r7zLX8/Tfjq4MJUJcI/AAAAAAAAB00/9Lomb5fWkpc/s1600/Front%252843%2529.jpg)

I'm not a big Gergiev fan, as everybody knows, but I couldn't pass on this great offer.

I have that series in the form of the original issues (as well as the Maryiinsky DSCH recordings), and the Fourth (which was both the first of the series I purchased and the first recording of the Fourth I ever heard) remains a particular favorite of mine.  I would in fact say it's the best performance in this set (his recording of the 11th is also good, but that's in the Maryiinsky series).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 18, 2012, 07:11:40 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 18, 2012, 05:39:02 PM
I have that series in the form of the original issues (as well as the Maryiinsky DSCH recordings), and the Fourth (which was both the first of the series I purchased and the first recording of the Fourth I ever heard) remains a particular favorite of mine.  I would in fact say it's the best performance in this set (his recording of the 11th is also good, but that's in the Maryiinsky series).

This is good to hear, Jeffrey. I've heard many negative things about Gergiev's Mariinsky Shostakovich recordings. I'm typically not a fan of Gergiev's approach to music these days, but I have been finding myself enjoying his earlier recordings more and more. I think his approach was broader in his earlier days. I look forward to hearing this set.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on February 18, 2012, 07:21:19 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 18, 2012, 07:11:40 PM
This is good to hear, Jeffrey. I've heard many negative things about Gergiev's Mariinsky Shostakovich recordings. I'm typically not a fan of Gergiev's approach to music these days, but I have been finding myself enjoying his earlier recordings more and more. I think his approach was broader in his earlier days. I look forward to hearing this set.
I do like Gergiev's recording of The Nose though.

I also generally prefer him in operatic music anyways. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 18, 2012, 07:22:56 PM
Quote from: paulrbass on February 18, 2012, 07:21:19 PM
I do like Gergiev's recording of The Nose though.

I also generally prefer him in operatic music anyways.

I should have been more specific. Yes, his recording of The Nose was very good.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on February 18, 2012, 07:27:52 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 18, 2012, 07:22:56 PM
I should have been more specific. Yes, his recording of The Nose was very good.
I feel his operatic attempts are much stronger than his symphonic side in general though, in my opinion of course
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 18, 2012, 07:34:54 PM
Quote from: paulrbass on February 18, 2012, 07:27:52 PM
I feel his operatic attempts are much stronger than his symphonic side in general though, in my opinion of course

I'm finding his later symphonic recordings to be incredibly unfocused and just not driven enough. I made the comment to one GMG member, I forget whom, that he just seems to be so busy these days that I think he's missing out on the big picture, which is to try and be consistently good. His performances lately just have been hit and miss, mostly all misses IMHO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on February 19, 2012, 06:15:25 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 18, 2012, 07:11:40 PM
This is good to hear, Jeffrey. I've heard many negative things about Gergiev's Mariinsky Shostakovich recordings. I'm typically not a fan of Gergiev's approach to music these days, but I have been finding myself enjoying his earlier recordings more and more. I think his approach was broader in his earlier days. I look forward to hearing this set.

just to clarify: while I like the Mariinsky recordings (The Nose is in transit to me now),  I still prefer the Rostropovich/LSO Live as the best I've heard for the 11th.  It's the performances of 2 and 3 that I think may qualify as the best performances of those works.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 19, 2012, 06:38:21 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 19, 2012, 06:15:25 AM
just to clarify: while I like the Mariinsky recordings (The Nose is in transit to me now),  I still prefer the Rostropovich/LSO Live as the best I've heard for the 11th.  It's the performances of 2 and 3 that I think may qualify as the best performances of those works.

The 2nd is a very experimental work and the best recording I've heard of it is Haitink's believe it or not. Caetani is also very good in this symphony. I still have yet to hear any of Maxim Shostakovich's cycle which I bought months ago. :-[
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on February 19, 2012, 04:14:16 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 16, 2012, 08:23:44 PMHaitink's 8th and 11th are some of the best around IMHO. I also really dig his 2nd and 6th. I agree that his 5th isn't that great, especially after hearing Bernstein's 1979 performance with the New York Philharmonic. Haitink sounds uninspired by comparison. Yes, I think just hearing Haitink's 5th and 9th gives you a limited view of his overall cycle especially considering those are two of the weakest performances of the whole cycle.

I checked the Third Ear Guide over the weekend, and the reviewer seems to agree with this opinion, so I have added Haitink to the (long, long) list.


Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2012, 04:23:13 AMjust wanted to observe that (a) I don't believe that Shostakovich is at all well served with a tasteless interpretational bent, and (b) "more manic, more hysterical, more tasteless" is just exactly what he was not trying to achieve with the Fifth, as it is just exactly what would have got him packed onto a cattle car headed east into Siberia.

If you've not noted afore, I am profoundly out of sympathy with any demand for lurid Shostakovich interpretation. Strikes me as little better than voyeurism.  YMMV . . . .


*mumble mumble* No wonder you hate Mahler!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on February 19, 2012, 05:32:58 PM

Mravinsky is sometimes accused of political cowardice or even personal betrayal for the fact that he didn't conduct the premiere of Shostakovich's 13th symphony. As is usual in these cases, there is no evidence to back these accusations. Nonetheless, I've been wondering over the years why Mravinsky didn't conduct the work.

I had theorised that Mrav had a personal aversion to choral work: the single choral work in his discography is Shosty's Song of the Forest, which Mrav premiered and recorded in 1949.

More recently I became curious about the chronology of the premiers and noticed that while Mrav conducted the first 12th in October 1961, the belated first performance of the 4th was given in December of that same year, not by Mrav but by Kondrashin. Since Mrav had conducted all but two premiers (7 and 11) since and including the 5th, is it possible he was angry at being overlooked for this important event, and refused the 13th for this reason?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 20, 2012, 09:15:27 AM
(http://gregscottmoeller.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/dsch1.jpg?w=500&h=750)  (http://gregscottmoeller.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/dsch-2.jpg?w=500&h=750)


I posted this in "Pictures I Like" thread also, just in case some of you dont check that, I thought I would post it here also for you to enjoy.  :)
Was doing FaceTime with my brother, he was showing some of the score to DSCH's opera Moskva, Cheremushki, Op. 105, if you notice the second pic describes the t-bones to "make a horrible noise".
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Drasko on February 21, 2012, 02:03:56 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on February 19, 2012, 05:32:58 PM
Mravinsky is sometimes accused of political cowardice or even personal betrayal for the fact that he didn't conduct the premiere of Shostakovich's 13th symphony. As is usual in these cases, there is no evidence to back these accusations. Nonetheless, I've been wondering over the years why Mravinsky didn't conduct the work.

I was curious about same questions you pose, but never could find anything resembling definite answer.
There definitely was political pressure about premiere of the 13th, two bass soloists backed out on the day of the performance and only third option, very little known Gromadsky sung it.
Kurt Sanderling, who knew Mravinsky very well, argued that if Mravinsky backed out under party pressure it wouldn't be because being afraid for himself (he already had openly defied the party on numerous questions, and they never really could touch him) but because being afraid of repercussions on other participants.
Gregor Tassie, author of only english language Mravinsky biography (which I haven't read) argues in an article in Gramophone that the reason was purely personal, namely that Mravinsky's wife was on her death bed at that time and that Mravinsky hasn't conducted much at all, let alone premieres of new pieces, even canceled some tours.
Is any of these views correct I have no idea.

QuoteI had theorised that Mrav had a personal aversion to choral work: the single choral work in his discography is Shosty's Song of the Forest, which Mrav premiered and recorded in 1949.

That's also something I noticed, lack of recordings of choral music is very prominent in Mravinsky's discography. But then I run across some of his concert listings on some Russian site. How much are those correct I can't tell but they do list a number of choral pieces he performed, including Beethoven's 9th and Missa Solemnis, Berlioz Requiem, Prokofiev's Nevsky.
So I came up with a different theory - Grand Hall of Leningrad Philharmonic is not very well suited for performances for orchestra and chorus. The stage is very shallow and to best of my knowledge the chorus has to be positioned on galleries above, left and right. That set-up is probably difficult to record live (back in those days), and since Mravinsky only allowed live recordings for most of his career he might not be satisfied with recording results and simply refused to record choral pieces.
But this is only just theory as well.

QuoteMore recently I became curious about the chronology of the premiers and noticed that while Mrav conducted the first 12th in October 1961, the belated first performance of the 4th was given in December of that same year, not by Mrav but by Kondrashin. Since Mrav had conducted all but two premiers (7 and 11) since and including the 5th, is it possible he was angry at being overlooked for this important event, and refused the 13th for this reason?

I don't know much about the premiere of the 4th, but I doubt that was a reason.


Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on February 22, 2012, 12:03:32 PM
There's a very fine Shostakovich 11th Symphony available online until April 3, with Charles Dutoit and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra (taped March 2010). Never quite warmed up to Dutoit in these symphonies, but heard him last year in the Tenth with Philadelphia (excellent) and now this, so...  Dutoit takes the ending slightly faster than I'd like, but the playing is outstanding.

http://cso.org/ListenAndWatch/Details.aspx?id=19621

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on February 22, 2012, 04:36:31 PM
Quote from: Drasko on February 21, 2012, 02:03:56 AMGregor Tassie, author of only english language Mravinsky biography (which I haven't read) argues in an article in Gramophone that the reason was purely personal, namely that Mravinsky's wife was on her death bed at that time and that Mravinsky hasn't conducted much at all, let alone premieres of new pieces, even canceled some tours.
Is any of these views correct I have no idea.

That's also something I noticed, lack of recordings of choral music is very prominent in Mravinsky's discography. But then I run across some of his concert listings on some Russian site. How much are those correct I can't tell but they do list a number of choral pieces he performed, including Beethoven's 9th and Missa Solemnis, Berlioz Requiem, Prokofiev's Nevsky.
This is very interesting, thank you.

Another oddity re Mrav not conducting the 4th: the orchestral parts, whose rediscovery led to the late debut performance, were actually found in the archives of the Leningrad Phil, which of course was Mravinsky's orchestra.

Could you link to that site of Mrav's live performances? I'd like to know if he ever conducted the 4th (no recording exists as far as I know).
Title: my long-serving three Shostakovich LP's
Post by: Scion7 on February 22, 2012, 05:04:54 PM
Sure, London Treasury US-New York pressings are pretty miserable.  And yeah, there are much better modern recordings of the London FFF albums that I have on CD.  The Karajan was a straight DDD so that was an easy transfer to CD.  Still, I will love these records!

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/newuploads/eentl.jpg)   (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/newuploads/kqdy6.jpg)
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/newuploads/d3npp.jpg)
Title: Re: my long-serving three Shostakovich LP's
Post by: John Copeland on February 22, 2012, 05:10:52 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on February 22, 2012, 05:04:54 PM
Sure, London Treasury US-New York pressings are pretty miserable.  And yeah, there are much better modern recordings of the London FFF albums that I have on CD.  The Karajan was a straight DDD so that was an easy transfer to CD.  Still, I will love these records!

Kertesz and Shostys 5th?  That sounds very interesting indeed.  I'd love to hear the Largo from that!
Title: Re: my long-serving three Shostakovich LP's
Post by: Mirror Image on February 22, 2012, 05:58:45 PM
Quote from: Scots John on February 22, 2012, 05:10:52 PM
Kertesz and Shostys 5th?  That sounds very interesting indeed.  I'd love to hear the Largo from that!

Me too! 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Drasko on February 22, 2012, 11:55:27 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on February 22, 2012, 04:36:31 PM
Could you link to that site of Mrav's live performances? I'd like to know if he ever conducted the 4th (no recording exists as far as I know).

Sure, but it's in Cyrillic

http://www.mravinsky.org/pages/op-list.htm

I wrote down some:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11288.msg280443.html#msg280443
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 23, 2012, 06:55:30 AM
Heard the Fifth recently in Boston's Symphony Hall:

http://seenandheard-international.com/2012/02/22/stephane-deneve-returns-to-boston-symphony-orchestra/
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on February 23, 2012, 03:47:04 PM
Quote from: Drasko on February 22, 2012, 11:55:27 PMSure, but it's in Cyrillic

http://www.mravinsky.org/pages/op-list.htm

I wrote down some:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11288.msg280443.html#msg280443

Many thanks, Drasko!  According to the site (translated by Google), composers Mrav performed included A. Stomachs and M. Deaf.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Drasko on February 24, 2012, 12:38:57 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on February 23, 2012, 03:47:04 PM
Many thanks, Drasko!  According to the site (translated by Google), composers Mrav performed included A. Stomachs and M. Deaf.

It's not badly translated actually

Живот (zhivot) = belly, stomach => A. Stomachs = А. Животов = Alexander Zhivotov (whose Heroic Poem Mravinsky did perform and record, 5th disc of Brilliant Classics box)

Глух (glukh) = deaf => M. Deaf = Михаил Александрович Глух = Mikhail Glukh (whose Suite Mravinsky performed once, and whose name is probably some russified version of German name Gluck rather than deaf in its original meaning)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 24, 2012, 01:27:21 PM
Since this thread gets a lot of traffic I have to post this, for those Shostakovich fans out there that don't own the Kondrashin box, now here's your chance to buy for $58 with free shipping if you have an account with Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Shostakovich-Complete-Symphonies-Dmitry/dp/B000IONEZG/ref=sr_1_12?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1330121957&sr=1-12

This is an incredible deal since this set is going for $134 under another listing on Amazon. Don't hesitate to buy this set!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on February 26, 2012, 05:22:19 PM
So, is this any good?

[ASIN]0691128863[/ASIN]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2012, 05:37:18 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on February 26, 2012, 05:22:19 PM
So, is this any good?

[ASIN]0691128863[/ASIN]

Yes, so far, but I've only read the first chapter. I don't own this edition, I own the original.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 26, 2012, 05:40:17 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on February 26, 2012, 05:22:19 PM
So, is this any good?

[ASIN]0691128863[/ASIN]

Very good. In fact, I consider it obligatory reading.

Separately: no interest in the review of a live performance of the Fifth? That's all right, of course ... but surprises me a touch.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2012, 05:40:39 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 24, 2012, 01:27:21 PM
Since this thread gets a lot of traffic I have to post this, for those Shostakovich fans out there that don't own the Kondrashin box, now here's your chance to buy for $58 with free shipping if you have an account with Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Shostakovich-Complete-Symphonies-Dmitry/dp/B000IONEZG/ref=sr_1_12?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1330121957&sr=1-12

This is an incredible deal since this set is going for $134 under another listing on Amazon. Don't hesitate to buy this set!

Did anyone, in the US, take advantage of this offer yet?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 26, 2012, 05:42:51 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 26, 2012, 05:37:18 PM
Yes, so far, but I've only read the first chapter. I don't own this edition, I own the original.

The new edition is certainly value added.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on February 26, 2012, 05:44:23 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 26, 2012, 05:40:17 PMVery good. In fact, I consider it obligatory reading.

Separately: no interest in the review of a live performance of the Fifth? That's all right, of course ... but surprises me a touch.


I read it, and thought it was good, but couldn't think of anything to say :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 26, 2012, 05:50:41 PM
Well, sometimes one cannot.

That's cool.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 26, 2012, 05:59:31 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 26, 2012, 05:42:51 PM
The new edition is certainly value added.

I'm sure it is, but at $4 I wasn't about to argue.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 26, 2012, 06:07:59 PM
Sure. They do unload outdated editions at a pittance. (Games Publishers Play)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on February 26, 2012, 07:03:51 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 26, 2012, 06:07:59 PMSure. They do unload outdated editions at a pittance. (Games Publishers Play)

What exactly is this unmissable added value in the 2nd edition?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 26, 2012, 07:10:35 PM
Sure, ask while I'm a 6-hr flight from home ; )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on February 26, 2012, 07:30:34 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 26, 2012, 07:10:35 PM
Sure, ask while I'm a 6-hr flight from home ; )

Well, you've nothing else to occupy your mind, right? :D


Apart, of course, from "don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash ...."

Which is why I don't fly.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on March 14, 2012, 09:56:46 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 26, 2012, 05:40:17 PMSeparately: no interest in the review of a live performance of the Fifth? That's all right, of course ... but surprises me a touch.[/font]
I'll read it, but I'm also jealous - except the First I've never heard/seen a Shostakovich Symphony performed live. I hopefully will see and listen to #4,5,7,8,9,10,11,15... one day.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 14, 2012, 10:24:08 AM
Quote from: Tapio Kimitriyevich Shostakovich on March 14, 2012, 09:56:46 AM
I'll read it, but I'm also jealous - except the First I've never heard/seen a Shostakovich Symphony performed live. I hopefully will see and listen to #4,5,7,8,9,10,11,15... one day.


I attended the San Antonio Symphony performing DSCH 15th a few years ago, quite an experience. Other than that I've seen the 5th and 10th both twice. But I can imagine any of his symphonies sounding good live.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 14, 2012, 10:32:28 AM
Mmm, to hear the Fifteenth live!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on March 14, 2012, 10:46:47 AM
Quote from: Tapio Kimitriyevich Shostakovich on March 14, 2012, 09:56:46 AMI hopefully will see and listen to #4,5,7,8,9,10,11,15... one day.
YES YES YES!!! Symphony #5 pretty close to where I live in MAY! OMFG! I WILL BE THERE!!! Plus Tchaikovsky #4 - I love the Andantino so much.[1] EXCELLENT! http://www.duisburger-philharmoniker.de/Konzerte/triumph-des-lebens/
It's always difficult for me to find concerts of specific composers, I don't know of any german web site who has information and the possibility to search for all the concert action that's taking place in germany.
[1] Just having the idea to play it on the clarinet - it's so beautiful.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 14, 2012, 11:24:52 AM
Quote from: Tapio Kimitriyevich Shostakovich on March 14, 2012, 10:46:47 AM
YES YES YES!!! Symphony #5 pretty close to where I live in MAY! OMFG! I WILL BE THERE!!! Plus Tchaikovsky #4 - I love the Andantino so much.[1] EXCELLENT! http://www.duisburger-philharmoniker.de/Konzerte/triumph-des-lebens/
It's always difficult for me to find concerts of specific composers, I don't know of any german web site who has information and the possibility to search for all the concert action that's taking place in germany.
[1] Just having the idea to play it on the clarinet - it's so beautiful.


Awesome!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on March 14, 2012, 09:16:47 PM
Can anyone tell me what the timings are for the Borodins in the middle movement of the string quartet No. 5? I was just listening to my new Shostakovich Quartet recording, and their take on this andante really did not seem slow enough (8:39). Thanks for any help.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on March 14, 2012, 10:55:51 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on March 14, 2012, 09:16:47 PMCan anyone tell me what the timings are for the Borodins in the middle movement of the string quartet No. 5? I was just listening to my new Shostakovich Quartet recording, and their take on this andante really did not seem slow enough (8:39). Thanks for any help.
- 8:11 in the Chandos cycle
- 9:06  in the Melodiya cycle
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on March 15, 2012, 02:42:46 PM
Quote from: Tapio Kimitriyevich Shostakovich on March 14, 2012, 10:55:51 PM- 8:11 in the Chandos cycle
- 9:06  in the Melodiya cycle

Excellent! Thank you!  I guess the Melodiya cycle is the one to get (that's the complete one, right?). I think I may end up having to buy multiple sets of these works :o   Outside of the big names, I am considering Razumowsky (Rasumovsky - the spelling varies), Rubio, Brodsky (it can't be that bad, can it?) and the Alexander Quartet's "Fragments" series.


EDIT: According to a user review on B&N, "the Brodsky Quartet is one of only two ensembles - the other being the Rubio Quartet - that takes more than 10 minutes to play the slow (middle) movement" of the 5th quartet.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on March 15, 2012, 02:45:46 PM
I've really been enjoying Shostakovich's Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk this afternoon. Really an evocative opera and the music is just brilliant.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on March 15, 2012, 07:06:58 PM
Now here's a question: Has anyone heard the Sorrel Quartet's set?  They seem to match my desired movement timings the best so far.

EDIT:

So far, for the quartets, I'm looking at:

Borodin II
Fitzwilliam
Sorrel (though apparently they suffer from "the Chandos sound" *sob*)
Brodsky ('cause it's cheap)

I'd also like to check out the Alexander and Pacifica, but Alexander is relatively expensive (near $80 the set) and Pacifica is incomplete.

There's a lot of commentary online regarding the Borodin and Fitzwilliam sets. I'd like to hear from anyone who's heard the others I've listed :)


My notes on desired timings for the 8th quartet:
    I should be over 4.50
    II under 2.49
    III over 4.15
    IV over 5.30
    V over 3.47
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on March 18, 2012, 06:16:30 PM
I have listened to the Shostakovich Quartet's set a couple of times now. (Unfortunately it is not in chronological order.) I really like the slow movements of the late quartets, including the 15th. However, although this may be one of the slowest recorded performances (I. 12:33, II. 5:28, III. 2:01, IV. 5:04, V. 4:55, VI. 6:45), it is not nearly slow enough! The tempos seem to me to rarely drop below moderato, when they should all be adagio or adagio molto. I think that first movement should really last about 20 minutes.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Lisztianwagner on March 19, 2012, 06:56:19 AM
Shostakovich is one of my absolute favourite russian composers, I've loved his music since I listened to the 1st movement of Piano Concerto No.2 on Fantasia 2000. :)
His music is extremely powerful, passionate and thrilling, with sharp contrasts, but also rich of beauty and chromaticism; I think it can fully express that poetical tragedy of the russian spirit, with its great expressive strenght, wonderful harmony and the colourful orchestration, absolutely brilliant and moving.
Piano Concerto No.2 was my favourite Shostakovich's piece for much time, now his symphonies are my favourite works (especially No.5, No.7, No.9, No.10, No.11, No.12 and No.13); other Shostakovich's compositions I love include the Piano Concerto No.1, Violin and Cello Concertos, the String Quartets and 24 Preludes and Fugues.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on March 19, 2012, 06:48:16 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on March 19, 2012, 06:56:19 AM
Shostakovich is one of my absolute favourite russian composers, I've loved his music since I listened to the 1st movement of Piano Concerto No.2 on Fantasia 2000. :)
His music is extremely powerful, passionate and thrilling, with sharp contrasts, but also rich of beauty and chromaticism; I think it can fully express that poetical tragedy of the russian spirit, with its great expressive strenght, wonderful harmony and the colourful orchestration, absolutely brilliant and moving.
Piano Concerto No.2 was my favourite Shostakovich's piece for much time, now his symphonies are my favourite works (especially No.5, No.7, No.9, No.10, No.11, No.12 and No.13); other Shostakovich's compositions I love include the Piano Concerto No.1, Violin and Cello Concertos, the String Quartets and 24 Preludes and Fugues.

Well said, Ilaria. :) I agree with everything you said. I think the more time a listener spends with Shostakovich, the more rewards the listener will receive because his music is just so personal and tragic. Have you heard The Golden Age yet?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on March 19, 2012, 07:36:47 PM
Dmitri figured large in a 400-level 55 pg college paper I wrote about the Soviet control of/artist sidestepping
music - along with Prokofiev, Khachaturian, etc.

Read Testiment about three times.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on March 19, 2012, 09:44:50 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on March 19, 2012, 07:36:47 PMRead Testiment about three times.
Testimony. A waste of time.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Lisztianwagner on March 20, 2012, 06:05:11 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 19, 2012, 06:48:16 PM
Well said, Ilaria. :) I agree with everything you said. I think the more time a listener spends with Shostakovich, the more rewards the listener will receive because his music is just so personal and tragic. Have you heard The Golden Age yet?

Thanks, John :) I'm afraid not, I've heard just excerpts from the ballet; but I would really like to buy the complete work, it sounds so amazing! I saw both Serebrier and Rozhdestvensky recorded the ballet, but is there any other recording though?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 20, 2012, 06:08:19 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on March 19, 2012, 06:56:19 AM
Shostakovich is one of my absolute favourite russian composers, I've loved his music since I listened to the 1st movement of Piano Concerto No.2 on Fantasia 2000. :)
His music is extremely powerful, passionate and thrilling, with sharp contrasts, but also rich of beauty and chromaticism; I think it can fully express that poetical tragedy of the russian spirit, with its great expressive strenght, wonderful harmony and the colourful orchestration, absolutely brilliant and moving.
Piano Concerto No.2 was my favourite Shostakovich's piece for much time, now his symphonies are my favourite works (especially No.5, No.7, No.9, No.10, No.11, No.12 and No.13); other Shostakovich's compositions I love include the Piano Concerto No.1, Violin and Cello Concertos, the String Quartets and 24 Preludes and Fugues.


You certainly want to make the acquaintance of the e minor piano trio, Ilaria!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Lisztianwagner on March 20, 2012, 06:31:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 20, 2012, 06:08:19 AM
You certainly want to make the acquaintance of the e minor piano trio, Ilaria!

Do you mean No.2? I've got it, that's a gorgeous piece!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 20, 2012, 06:37:24 AM
Aye, that's the one!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on March 20, 2012, 06:53:32 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on March 20, 2012, 06:05:11 AM
Thanks, John :) I'm afraid not, I've heard just excerpts from the ballet; but I would really like to buy the complete work, it sounds so amazing! I saw both Serebrier and Rozhdestvensky recorded the ballet, but is there any other recording though?

There are three complete recordings of The Golden Age: Rozhdestvensky/Royal Stockholm, Simonov/Bolshoi, and Serebrier/RSNO. The best one is Serebrier IMHO. I think Serebrier has the better orchestra and the audio quality is great. It can also be bought a lot cheaper than the other two recordings which are more or less full-priced.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on March 20, 2012, 12:05:26 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 20, 2012, 06:08:19 AM
You certainly want to make the acquaintance of the e minor piano trio, Ilaria!
Yes, a superb piece, that one.
I think I'll give it a spin now - with Argerich, Kremer & Maisky
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Lisztianwagner on March 20, 2012, 12:47:12 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 20, 2012, 06:53:32 AM
There are three complete recordings of The Golden Age: Rozhdestvensky/Royal Stockholm, Simonov/Bolshoi, and Serebrier/RSNO. The best one is Serebrier IMHO. I think Serebrier has the better orchestra and the audio quality is great. It can also be bought a lot cheaper than the other two recordings which are more or less full-priced.

It sounds great, thanks for the feedback, John :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on March 20, 2012, 06:03:26 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on March 20, 2012, 12:47:12 PM
It sounds great, thanks for the feedback, John :)

My pleasure, Ilaria.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on April 30, 2012, 06:22:33 AM
Today's random question...

Is it just me, or is anyone else annoyed at all the attention that String Quartet No. 8 gets at the expense of all the others?

Honestly, attach a bit of a programmatic hint to something and everyone gets all excited.  To me it's one of the least satisfying of the quartets.

Grumble.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on April 30, 2012, 06:29:18 AM
The 8th string quartet has such a memorable tune that I can still recall it with ease.  I can't say the same for the others... although I will admit that most of them are on par with that quartet, and the late ones surpass it on the grounds of aesthetics and the nuanced emotional landscape they create.  Eh still my favorite though! :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on April 30, 2012, 06:34:27 AM
Quote from: DavidW on April 30, 2012, 06:29:18 AM
The 8th string quartet has such a memorable tune that I can still recall it with ease.

A fact which, I should think, comes close to ranking the piece with the Beethoven Fifth Symphony.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on April 30, 2012, 05:41:32 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 30, 2012, 06:34:27 AM
A fact which, I should think, comes close to ranking the piece with the Beethoven Fifth Symphony.

I guess knock at door + music = sure-fire hit?

"You keep a-knockin' but you can't come in!"
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2012, 08:36:21 PM
Shostakovich = brilliant composer. My absolute favorite of the whole lot.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on May 01, 2012, 04:49:02 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 30, 2012, 06:34:27 AM
A fact which, I should think, comes close to ranking the piece with the Beethoven Fifth Symphony.

That reminds me of that Simpsons episode where everyone goes to the new concert hall (it was spoofing the walt disney hall and even had the architect as a guest star) and they hear the opening of Beethoven's 5th and promptly leave because they associate the symphony with the ringtone on their cell phones! :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: raduneo on May 01, 2012, 06:24:17 AM
Indeed a truly magnificent composer. I remember reading in Plotkin's book on classical music that it usually takes over 50-70 years for a composer to truly get recognizes to his real value. Just as Mahler got his deserved spot, I really hope Shostakovich does to! He is very dear to me: not only is he probably the composer who was interested the most in the sufferings of the people in the 20th century, but his musical talent is brilliant enough to be able to express his ideas and make great music in the process!

I was reading a quote on a chapter on Manet from this book I'm reading, and I ran across a quote by Baudelaire: "Great colorists know how to create color with a black coat, a white cravat and a gray background". I have a feeling this applies to Shostakovich quite well! :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on May 11, 2012, 06:19:14 AM


Gergiev's Munich Shostakovich - Symphonies 6 & 10


(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8lfTdFUMcVU/T60Y5FAzGjI/AAAAAAAAB-s/UK2Yc3JAXF4/s400/Shostakovich_Cycle_Gergiev_.png)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/gergievs-munich-shostakovich-symphonies.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/gergievs-munich-shostakovich-symphonies.html)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on May 11, 2012, 03:24:08 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 11, 2012, 06:19:14 AM


Gergiev's Munich Shostakovich - Symphonies 6 & 10


(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8lfTdFUMcVU/T60Y5FAzGjI/AAAAAAAAB-s/UK2Yc3JAXF4/s400/Shostakovich_Cycle_Gergiev_.png)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/gergievs-munich-shostakovich-symphonies.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/gergievs-munich-shostakovich-symphonies.html)

sounds like, yet again, he did a better job in concert than in the recording studio. 

The Clevelanders will be doing the 10th here in Miami with Welser-Most next year. 

And, relative to DSCH,  I gave a first listen to the Petrenko recording of 2 and 15 this afternoon; it seems to keep to the high quality of the earlier issues in that series.  Just have to cross our fingers that he completes the cycle for EMI if he doesn't do it for Naxos.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on May 11, 2012, 03:55:16 PM


Gergiev's Munich Shostakovich - Symphonies 7 & 9


(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8lfTdFUMcVU/T60Y5FAzGjI/AAAAAAAAB-s/UK2Yc3JAXF4/s400/Shostakovich_Cycle_Gergiev_.png)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/gergievs-munich-shostakovich-symphonies_11.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/gergievs-munich-shostakovich-symphonies_11.html)

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 11, 2012, 03:24:08 PM
sounds like, yet again, he did a better job in concert than in the recording studio. 

The Clevelanders will be doing the 10th here in Miami with Welser-Most next year. 

And, relative to DSCH,  I gave a first listen to the Petrenko recording of 2 and 15 this afternoon; it seems to keep to the high quality of the earlier issues in that series.  Just have to cross our fingers that he completes the cycle for EMI if he doesn't do it for Naxos.

His DSCH Piano Concertos (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004YZF09S/nectarandambr-20) (with Matsuev, not a natural favorite of mine) are excellent on disc. That's about it, though, as of late. Oh, and his Mahler 5.

But tonight I heard the best DSCH of them all: Stanisław Skrowaczewski. A clearer beat and more limber arms than colleagues half his age. And the most kick-ass Shostakovich 5th I've heard in... so far. Holy Mackerel! And that's despite already expecting a lot from one of my favorite underrated conductors.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sandra on May 11, 2012, 07:54:32 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on March 19, 2012, 09:44:50 PM
Testimony. A waste of time.

Why? Is Volkov a fraud? I heard a lot of favorable opinions about him, but certain people feel he was cashing in on a famous biography.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on May 11, 2012, 08:31:14 PM
Quote from: Sandra on May 11, 2012, 07:54:32 PM
Why? Is Volkov a fraud? I heard a lot of favorable opinions about him, but certain people feel he was cashing in on a famous biography.

As I understand it, the problem with Testimony is that of deciding:
--what Shostakovich actually said (that is, what "quotes" are actual quotes)
--what Shostakovich might have said (that is, what "quotes" can be described as "fake but accurate")
--what Volkhov wanted people to think Shostakovich said (that is, what "quotes" are totally inauthentic)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on May 11, 2012, 11:26:10 PM
Quote from: Sandra on May 11, 2012, 07:54:32 PM
Why? Is Volkov a fraud? I heard a lot of favorable opinions about him, but certain people feel he was cashing in on a famous biography.

He's a fraud from A to Я.

Here's what his Third wife Irina has to say about Volkov. Not that she's 100% reliable, either, but this gets to the point nicely and is more easily read than Fay's excellent analysis.

QuoteVolkov and 'Testimony'

During interviews, I am often asked about the veracity of the book "Testimony" by Solomon Volkov, published as Shostakovich's memoirs. Here is what I think.

Mr. Volkov worked for Sovetskaya Muzyka magazine, where Shostakovich was a member of the editorial board. As a favor to Boris Tishchenko, his pupil and colleague, Shostakovich agreed to be interviewed by Mr. Volkov, whom he knew little about, for an article to be published in Sovetskaya Muzyka. There were three interviews; each lasted two to two and a half hours, no longer, since Shostakovich grew tired of extensive chat and lost interest in the conversation. Two of the interviews were held in the presence of Mr. Tishchenko. The interviews were not taped.

Mr. Volkov arrived at the second interview with a camera (Mr. Volkov's wife, a professional photographer, always took pictures of Mr. Volkov with anyone who might become useful in the future) and asked Mr. Tishchenko and me to take pictures "as a keepsake." He brought a photograph to the third interview and asked Shostakovich to sign it. Shostakovich wrote his usual words: "To dear Solomon Maseyevich Volkov, in fond remembrance. D. Shostakovich 13.XI.1974." Then, as if sensing something amiss, he asked for the photograph back and, according to Mr. Volkov himself, added: "In memory of our talks on Glazunov, Zoshchenko and Meyerhold. D. Sh."

That was a list of the topics covered during the interviews. It shows that the conversation was about musical and literary life in prewar Leningrad (now St. Petersburg) and nothing more. Some time later, Mr. Volkov brought Shostakovich a typed version of their conversations and asked him to sign every page at the bottom. It was a thin sheaf of papers, and Shostakovich, presuming he was going to see the proof sheets, did not read them. I came into Shostakovich's study as he was standing at his desk signing those pages without reading them. Mr. Volkov took the pages and left.

I asked Shostakovich why he had been signing every page, as it seemed unusual. He replied that Mr. Volkov had told him about some new censorship rules according to which his material would not be accepted by the publishers without a signature. I later learned that Mr. Volkov had already applied for an exit visa to leave the country and was planning to use that material as soon as he was abroad.

Soon after that, Shostakovich died, and Mr. Volkov put his plans into further action.

Mr. Volkov had told a lot of people about those pages, boasting his journalist's luck. This threatened to complicate his exit. It seems that he managed to contrive an audience with Enrico Berlinguer, secretary of the Italian Communist Party, who happened to be visiting Moscow, showed him the photograph signed by Shostakovich and complained that he, Mr. Volkov, a friend of Shostakovich's, was not allowed to leave the country for political reasons. In any case, an article about Mr. Volkov and the same photograph appeared in the Italian Communist newspaper La Stampa. Apparently, it did the trick.

I met Mr. Volkov at a concert and asked him to come and see me (but without his wife, as he had wanted) and leave me a copy of the material he had, which was unauthorized (since it had never been read by Shostakovich). Mr. Volkov replied that the material had already been sent abroad, and if Mr. Volkov was not allowed to leave, the material would be published with additions. He soon left the country, and I never saw him again.

Later on, I read in a booklet that came with the phonograph record of the opera "Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District" conducted by Mstislav Rostropovich, which was released abroad, that Mr. Volkov was Shostakovich's assistant with whom he had written his memoirs. Elsewhere I read that when Shostakovich was at home alone, he would phone Mr. Volkov and they would see each other in secret.

Only someone with rich fantasy could invent something like that; it was not true, if only because at that time Shostakovich was very ill and was never left on his own. And we lived outside Moscow at the dacha. There was no opportunity for secret meetings. Mr. Volkov's name is nowhere to be found in Shostakovich's correspondence of the time, in his letters to Isaak Glikman, for example.

Mr. Volkov found a publisher in the United States, and the advertising campaign began. Extracts from the book appeared in a German magazine and reached Russia, where at that time there was state monopoly on intellectual property. VAAP, the Soviet copyright agency, asked for verification of Shostakovich's signature. American experts confirmed its authenticity. The book was published. Each chapter of the book was preceded by words written in Shostakovich's hand: "Have read. Shostakovich."

I can vouch that this was how Shostakovich signed articles by different authors planned for publication. Such material was regularly delivered to him from Sovetskaya Muzyka magazine for review, then the material was returned to the editorial department, where Mr. Volkov was employed. Unfortunately, the American experts, who did not speak Russian, were unable and certainly had no need to correlate Shostakovich's words with the contents of the text.

As for the additions, Mr. Volkov himself told me that he had spoken to a lot of different people about Shostakovich, in particular to Lev Lebedinsky, who later became an inaccurate memoirist and with whom Shostakovich had ended all relations a long time before. A friend of Shostakovich's, Leo Arnshtam, a cinema director, saw Mr. Volkov on his request, and Arnshtam later regretted it. A story about a telephone conversation with Stalin was written from his words. All this was included in the book as though it were coming from Shostakovich himself.

The book was translated into many languages and published in a number of countries, except Russia. Mr. Volkov at first claimed that the American publishers were against the Russian edition, then that the royalties in Russia were not high enough, then that those offering to publish it in Russia were crooks and, finally, that he had sold his manuscript to a private archive and it was not available anymore. Retranslation into Russian relieves the author of responsibility and permits new liberties.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on May 13, 2012, 06:20:26 PM
Quote from: Sandra on May 11, 2012, 07:54:32 PMWhy? Is Volkov a fraud? I heard a lot of favorable opinions about him, but certain people feel he was cashing in on a famous biography.

This has handily been addressed by JLaurson, above. I'll only add that for me the prime reason Testimony must be openly refuted is that it claims to be the revealed truth of the music itself. Ian MacDonald was the foremost apostle of this revelation, with his book "The New Shostakovich", in which he claimed to be able to decode the intended political meaning of the symphonies note by note. Of course Shostakovich, like all composers, associated external meanings with his music, but abstracting the whole artwork into a coded essay on resistance to totalitarianism only belittles the music, IMO. What makes music great is that it creates expressions and experiences that cannot be translated into a prose equivalent.


To change the subject, I wonder if anyone has written anything on the connection between Nielsen and Shostakovich? There is nothing in Elizabeth Wilson's book - she says that Shost studied contemporary works as a student in the 20s, mentions Hindemith and another name I don't recall, but no mention of Nielsen, whose 5th and 6th symphonies relate so closely to the style of Shostakovich's music up to the 4th symphony that I don't think it could be a coincidence. (I've also wondered if the 1st mvt of the 5th symphony inspired Ravel's Bolero!)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on May 14, 2012, 06:38:34 PM
JLaurson recommended Barshai's recording of the 4th symphony in another thread, so I listened to it last night (I have the Brilliant box set). This is definitely one of the greats. In this admittedly meandering work, conductors too often let the music sound rote, but Barshai has obviously attended to every bar. I just wish I liked the sound of the recording a bit more....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 14, 2012, 07:46:23 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 14, 2012, 06:38:34 PM
JLaurson recommended Barshai's recording of the 4th symphony in another thread, so I listened to it last night (I have the Brilliant box set). This is definitely one of the greats. In this admittedly meandering work, conductors too often let the music sound rote, but Barshai has obviously attended to every bar. I just wish I liked the sound of the recording a bit more....

For me, Rattle's 4th is still one of the best, but I hope a Petrenko performance is in the pipeline.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on May 14, 2012, 09:39:49 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 14, 2012, 06:38:34 PM
JLaurson recommended Barshai's recording of the 4th symphony in another thread...

I did so by way of actually, really, recommending Mariss Jansons (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html), though. :-)
That one combines many of Barshai's lean, skeletal qualities with much of the wallop that, say, Bychkov (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000JLPNIE/goodmusicguide-20).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on May 14, 2012, 09:46:15 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 14, 2012, 09:39:49 PMI did so by way of actually, really, recommending Mariss Jansons (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html), though. :-)

Really? I must have missed that bit. I found Barshai more involved and characterful than Jansons.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on May 15, 2012, 12:34:54 AM

Heard the finest live DSCH 5th last week -- with the 90 year old (!) and totally limber Skrowaczewski  conducting the BRSO.
Put the already excellent Gergiev performances of 6, 7, 9, 10 from a couple days earlier in perspective, again.

How about the plethora of top-notch PC recordings over the last year!?!




(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B004QOEG8S.01.L.jpg)
DSCH
Piano Concertos
+ Piano Quintet
V.Jurowski / M.Helmchen
LPO
LPO  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004QOEG8S/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00713Y2R6/goodmusicguidede-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00713Y2R6/goodmusicguide-21)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B006FVM1ZU.01.L.jpg)
DSCH
Piano Concertos
V. Fedoseyev / P. Gulda
Moscow RSO
Gramola (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B006FVM1ZU/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B006FVM1ZU/goodmusicguidede-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B006FVM1ZU/goodmusicguide-21)


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B004YZF09S.01.L.jpg)
DSCH
Piano Concertos
+ Shchedrin PC #5
D.Matsuev / V.Gergiev
Mariinsky Live (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004YZF09S/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004YZF09S/goodmusicguidede-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004YZF09S/goodmusicguide-21)


(http://www.seenandheard-international.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/DSCH_PCs_Toradze_Jarvi.jpg)
DSCH
Piano Concertos
Alexander Toradze / Paavo Järvi
Frankfurt RSO
hr-music classic (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007ZEG3Z0/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007NUP6UO/goodmusicguidede-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007NUP6UO/goodmusicguide-21)

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 15, 2012, 10:04:25 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 15, 2012, 12:34:54 AMHeard the finest live DSCH 5th last week -- with the 90 year old (!) and totally limber Skrowaczewski conducting the BRSO.

I own the Skrowaczewski recordings of Shosty's 1, 5, 6, and 10 with Halle Orchestra and they are all excellent performances. Much better than any of the Gergiev recordings I've heard.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on May 15, 2012, 11:46:13 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 15, 2012, 10:04:25 AM
I own the Skrowaczewski recordings of Shosty's 1, 5, 6, and 10 with Halle Orchestra and they are all excellent performances. Much better than any of the Gergiev recordings I've heard.

Absolutely fantastic recordings!


Ionarts-at-Large: The Admirable, Adorable Stanisław Skrowaczewski

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-S3lQPsfJN8E/T7J9NcOe07I/AAAAAAAAB-8/OdvKBAg6vOo/s400/BRSO_Skrowa_DSCH.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/ionarts-at-large-admirable-adorable.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/ionarts-at-large-admirable-adorable.html)

QuoteWhen it rains, it pours. Raining Shostakovich in this case, not the most regularly performed composer in Munich, and now the fifth Symphony in as many days! And incidentally the Fifth Symphony this time – part of the regular Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra season with veteran conductor Polish Stanisław Skrowaczewski on the rostrum.

Stanisław Skrowaczewski is one of those fascinating cases of great, acknowledged, prize-winning, Pulitzer-nominated achievement that yet manages to remain underestimated. The one-time Nadia Boulanger student has worked with the perfectly underestimatable Hallé and Minnesota orchestras. He has recorded superb, but of course underestimated Shostakovich Symphonies (1 & 6, 5 & 10) with the former. And his is by far the best underrated Bruckner Symphony Cycle (with the Saarbrücken RSO on Oehms. Quote Skrowaczewski: "For me, Bruckner is one of the greatest composers, even though I cannot exactly say why." A man after my own heart!)...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on May 20, 2012, 05:05:02 PM
Eyeresist asked for a debriefing after I gave a first listen to my trio of newly acquired Fourths.

To recap,  three different recordings of the Symphony No. 4 in c minor, Op. 43
--Scottish National Orchestra, N. Jarvi cond.
--Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, M. Jansons cond.
--City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, S. Rattle cond. (with Britten's Russian Funeral for brass and percussion as an add on)

I was least impressed by the Jarvi--did not sound as intense as the others. In part this seemed to be because of some less than first rate audio--the sound did not seem as clear as it does on the other two recordings.

Of the other two, I'm not sure which I prefer, although I'm inclined to give the nod to Jansons.  Rattle has what I think is a more intense first movement,  but Jansons a better third movement, and Rattle seems to give the very last bar a sort of odd hopeful chuckle whch doesn't really fit in well. 

I will, however, have to give both a few more listens before I can give a real opinion.  Nor am I yet prepared to say either one is noticeably better than the Gergiev, although it's been a little while since I've actually played that performance.  And I have yet to listen to the Barshai performance, so all this is definitely provisional. I can say, however, I like both the Rattle and the Jansons better than I do either of the Haitink recordings (in the Decca boxset and on CSO Resound--the one that won the Grammy), or the Rostropovich recording, which is the other performance I have of this symphony,.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on May 20, 2012, 06:33:41 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 20, 2012, 05:05:02 PMEyeresist asked for a debriefing after I gave a first listen to my trio of newly acquired Fourths.

Thanks for remembering :)  I think I'll listen to Barshai later today.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2012, 04:42:41 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 20, 2012, 05:05:02 PM
Eyeresist asked for a debriefing after I gave a first listen to my trio of newly acquired Fourths.

To recap,  three different recordings of the Symphony No. 4 in c minor, Op. 43
--Scottish National Orchestra, N. Jarvi cond.
--Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, M. Jansons cond.
--City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, S. Rattle cond. (with Britten's Russian Funeral for brass and percussion as an add on)

I was least impressed by the Jarvi--did not sound as intense as the others. In part this seemed to be because of some less than first rate audio--the sound did not seem as clear as it does on the other two recordings.

Thanks for this, Jeffrey! I am still making my acquaintance with the Rattle, and (curiously) have yet to listen at all to the Jansons . . . but the Järvi truly is impossibly tubby of sound, partly a result of the over-reverberant space in which (what were they thinking?) they elected to record . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: not edward on May 21, 2012, 06:49:19 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 21, 2012, 04:42:41 AM
Thanks for this, Jeffrey! I am still making my acquaintance with the Rattle, and (curiously) have yet to listen at all to the Jansons . . . but the Järvi truly is impossibly tubby of sound, partly a result of the over-reverberant space in which (what were they thinking?) they elected to record . . . .
Good question. I never liked the acoustics in the Glasgow City Hall--depending on where you sat different frequency ranges came through either dry or muddy. I suppose the Caird Hall in Dundee (which IIRC at the time was Chandos' recording venue of preference for the RSNO) may have been booked up.

I once went to a Nielsen's 5th under Vanska in Glasgow City Hall where the side-drummer was placed high above the orchestra in one of the boxes--I was told the reason for this was that otherwise the sound of the side drum simply couldn't cut through the orchestral wash in some parts of the hall.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on May 30, 2012, 03:16:26 PM
I have probably stated this before, either in this thread or in the other forum, but I just want to emphasize one of the aspects I really like in the Eight Symphony:  The delayed use of the percussion instruments in the first movement.

To me, the absence of the percussion instruments in the first ten minutes creates tension that is almost furthered by the snare drum when it enters.  It highlights the main climax of the movement, as there is also no percussion instruments past that use (or very limited). 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 31, 2012, 10:49:39 AM
Quote from: PaulR on May 30, 2012, 03:16:26 PM
I have probably stated this before, either in this thread or in the other forum, but I just want to emphasize one of the aspects I really like in the Eight Symphony:  The delayed use of the percussion instruments in the first movement.

Tangential to this: I really like how, in many of the symphonies, he starts out with ye olde string choir, both because he had such a talent for writing richly for the strings, and because as a result (as you observe here, Paul) part of the drama of the unfolding sonata design is, the entrance of other parts of the orchestra, like characters entering upon the stage.

And: Leningrad party (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20577.msg633676/topicseen.html#msg633676) at Bruce's! : )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on May 31, 2012, 11:37:06 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 31, 2012, 10:49:39 AM
Tangential to this: I really like how, in many of the symphonies, he starts out with ye olde string choir, both because he had such a talent for writing richly for the strings, and because as a result (as you observe here, Paul) part of the drama of the unfolding sonata design is, the entrance of other parts of the orchestra, like characters entering upon the stage.

And: Leningrad party (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20577.msg633676/topicseen.html#msg633676) at Bruce's! : )
Not only strings in general, but how he also uses the low strings.  Thinking especially of the 10th symphony.  The atmosphere, along with the use of the higher strings in their lower positions with a more earthy sound, that it creates really sets up the clarinet when the instrument enters.  The clarinet has the perfect timbre for this opening of the movement (and throughout the piece).  I think it's the best opening statement he wrote, at least, in a symphony.
(Perhaps, I am a bit biased in saying that, as the 10th is my favorite symphony)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 31, 2012, 11:43:35 AM
There's nought wrong with the Tenth being your favorite symphony, lad! : )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 01, 2012, 10:14:20 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 31, 2012, 11:43:35 AM
There's nought wrong with the Tenth being your favorite symphony, lad! : )

+10  ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2012, 05:05:07 AM
I do find myself thinking continually better of the Eleventh; it helped, chancing to catch a bit of a live broadcast yesterday of the Houston Symphony playing it at Carnegie Hall under the baton of Hans Graf.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 04, 2012, 10:45:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2012, 05:05:07 AM
I do find myself thinking continually better of the Eleventh; it helped, chancing to catch a bit of a live broadcast yesterday of the Houston Symphony playing it at Carnegie Hall under the baton of Hans Graf.

Them Houstonians have a good band.
Was this performance on the radio?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2012, 10:50:54 AM
It was, and Bruce corrected me:  the actual concert was something like a month ago.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 04, 2012, 10:53:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2012, 10:50:54 AM
It was, and Bruce corrected me:  the actual concert was something like a month ago.

Very cool, thanks, Karl!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on June 04, 2012, 11:06:22 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 04, 2012, 10:45:32 AM
Them Houstonians have a good band.
It's funny, they always draw great acclaim on the road - but then, I only ever see them at Jones Hall, which is acoustically deadening. It's not a great place to see a concert.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2012, 11:15:24 AM
Brings new meaning to the term Jonesing . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2012, 11:17:37 AM
Brian, how does the Petrenko account of the Eleventh compare, do you know?  I was thinking of giving that instalment in his ongoing series a miss, but this taste of the piece as your home band gave it out has me wondering . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on June 04, 2012, 11:19:54 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2012, 11:17:37 AM
Brian, how does the Petrenko account of the Eleventh compare, do you know?  I was thinking of giving that instalment in his ongoing series a miss, but this taste of the piece as your home band gave it out has me wondering . . . .

I actually plan to listen to it again soon - I'm soon to be reviewing the Kreizberg Eleventh (from Monte Carlo) for MusicWeb and will compare with Petrenko among others. I can tell you that when I saw Petrenko conduct the piece live (LPO), it was an utterly thrilling account - in fact, the 'massacre' section was probably the most purely terrified I've been, in a concert hall. Yes, I really will have to listen to the CDs soon  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 11, 2012, 08:40:08 PM
So I've been revisiting the VCs, what spectacular works these are! I'm trying to get a better understanding of the 2nd, which obviously is late-Shostakovich as it is Op. 129. Anybody got any suggestions or thoughts that could help me understand 2nd VC better?
Title: Re: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2012, 03:01:32 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 11, 2012, 08:40:08 PM
So I've been revisiting the VCs, what spectacular works these are! I'm trying to get a better understanding of the 2nd, which obviously is late-Shostakovich as it is Op. 167. Anybody got any suggestions or thoughts that could help me understand 2nd VC better?

Oh, not Op.167! That's impossibly high.

It's a wonderful, and wonderfully elusive, piece. Not even sure how to "pitch" such a piece.  My only suggestion, John (and it may well be that others have a better) is: live with the concerto, do an intensive course with it, for a week.  I didn't find it the sort of piece which I could fathom, just playing it a few times as part of a regular flood of rotation. It's a piece of surprising, compelling quietude which requires close attention.

And: it might be the leverage for you which illuminates Schnittke.

Maybe.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2012, 05:59:37 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 11, 2012, 08:40:08 PM
. . . as it is Op. 167.

Of course, I see where this typo came from, now: Opus 129 (1967)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: not edward on June 12, 2012, 06:07:22 AM
It's been a really long time since I've heard op 129, so I should rectify this soon. Karl's 'elusive' is of course a very good description of the piece; I'd characterize it as one of the more understated works in DSCH's late period. I could be wrong, but I seem to recall there being a few sly half-references to the violin concerto from Hindemith's Kammermusik in the piece.

As for the Schnittke comment: I'm going from memory here, but I seem to recall reading that Schnittke listed the second violin and cello concerti and the 14th quartet as amongst the Shostakovich works that meant the most to his generation of composers in the USSR. It's easy for me (at least) to see how, given the expressively ambivalent nature of all three.
Title: Re: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 12, 2012, 07:16:42 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2012, 03:01:32 AM
Oh, not Op.167! That's impossibly high.

It's a wonderful, and wonderfully elusive, piece. Not even sure how to "pitch" such a piece.  My only suggestion, John (and it may well be that others have a better) is: live with the concerto, do an intensive course with it, for a week.  I didn't find it the sort of piece which I could fathom, just playing it a few times as part of a regular flood of rotation. It's a piece of surprising, compelling quietude which requires close attention.

And: it might be the leverage for you which illuminates Schnittke.

Maybe.

Thank you, Karl. And, yes, it's Op. 129. I don't know where I got the other number from. I mean I like the work, I'm just not as crazy about as I am Op. 77 (or 99 ???). But we'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 12, 2012, 07:19:29 AM
Quote from: edward on June 12, 2012, 06:07:22 AM
It's been a really long time since I've heard op 129, so I should rectify this soon. Karl's 'elusive' is of course a very good description of the piece; I'd characterize it as one of the more understated works in DSCH's late period. I could be wrong, but I seem to recall there being a few sly half-references to the violin concerto from Hindemith's Kammermusik in the piece.

As for the Schnittke comment: I'm going from memory here, but I seem to recall reading that Schnittke listed the second violin and cello concerti and the 14th quartet as amongst the Shostakovich works that meant the most to his generation of composers in the USSR. It's easy for me (at least) to see how, given the expressively ambivalent nature of all three.

Thanks for you feedback, Edward. I shall be giving it more careful listens soon.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2012, 07:27:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 12, 2012, 07:16:42 AM
. . . I'm just not as crazy about as I am Op. 77 (or 99 ???)

At this point there are enough recordings and/or concert program notes out there with the wrong number, that the error may never be completely eradicated, but yes: the First Vn Cto is Op.77.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 12, 2012, 09:30:22 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2012, 07:27:17 AM
At this point there are enough recordings and/or concert program notes out there with the wrong number, that the error may never be completely eradicated, but yes: the First Vn Cto is Op.77.

If I was a professor of music, I would make my students remember Op. 77 NOT Op. 99!!! :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on June 12, 2012, 10:57:29 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 12, 2012, 09:30:22 AM
If I was a professor of music, I would make my students remember Op. 77 NOT Op. 99!!! :D
I would be the nice professor and accept both answers :P  (As long as the hypothetical student labels Op. 99 as the Violin Concerto*)

I enjoy the both of the later violin and cello concerto's as much as the first of both genres.  It's...unfortunate they arent recorded more.

*this attitude is subject to change as I grow wiser
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 13, 2012, 02:08:51 PM
Here's an excellent performance of Shosty's Violin Concerto No. 1 with Vadim Repin (violin) and Paavo Jarvi conducting the Orchestre de Paris:

Movement 1 - Nocturne:

http://www.youtube.com/v/7r4kYqB_mx4

Movement 2 - Scherzo:

http://www.youtube.com/v/42pcJ-_AN1I

Movement 3 - Passacaglia: Andante:

http://www.youtube.com/v/mbzprkgFbtY

Movement 4 - Cadenza, Burlesque:

http://www.youtube.com/v/rWx58Lte0uk
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 21, 2012, 03:54:10 AM
The only time (thus far) that I've heard the Op.77 live, it was Repin, Masur, and our band here in Boston. Dynamite!

Jens, did I imagine it, or did you express a low opinion of Slava's account of the Op.43?  I can see your point, and yet . . . and yet . . . well, I should really compose a proper paragraph or two on that . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on June 21, 2012, 05:47:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 21, 2012, 03:54:10 AM
The only time (thus far) that I've heard the Op.77 live, it was Repin, Masur, and our band here in Boston. Dynamite!

Jens, did I imagine it, or did you express a low opinion of Slava's account of the Op.43?  I can see your point, and yet . . . and yet . . . well, I should really compose a proper paragraph or two on that . . . .


You're probably right, since i have a low opinion of most of Slava's DSCH recordings... especially the symphonies. He wasn't a good conductor and he didn't have a good orchestra and he used DSCH to further his conducting career.

QuoteOf his Shostakovich symphonies (the complete set - largely with the NSO - is available on Teldec), I cannot recommend many when there is always an interpretation that I'd much rather hear. The early recordings are uneven, lacking in the necessary tension, and are often let down by the NSO's lack of will or ability. Any complete set I know is preferable, be it Jansons (EMI), Barshai (Brilliant), Kitajenko (Capriccio), Kondrashin (Aulos/Melodiya) or Haitkink (Decca). The LSO recordings on the orchestras' own label are better, by-and-large, but hugely overrated. His Eighth on that label, though, is a worthy contender. Slowness in that symphony is no detriment to the grim and stark atmosphere and I rate his account above Gergiev (Philips) and Wiggelsworth (BIS), alongside Barshai and Kitajenko and only marginally behind Jansons.

(The Violin Concertos with him and Vengerov are very good, but that's not really Rostropovich's doing.)

Ha, just read the review of his last concert in the US, which ends on the nastiest little zinger I may have ever penned.

QuoteTo keep the audience members in their seats until the end (Britten and Dutilleux are not acceptable Washington fare), Dvořák's 8th Symphony was programmed. Possibly as good as the overplayed "From the New World," it is a work that is easy on the ears, occasionally grandiose, rightly popular with concert-goers. Until tonight, that was. Listening to what Rostropovich did with this work was puzzling. Literally and metaphorically speaking, he turned it into the longest Dvořák symphony I ever had to sit through. Plodding along at insufferably slow speeds, he made sure that musical lines disappeared and that any sense of rhythm here or heroism there were fastidiously excised; emotional subtleties plowed under. The brass fanfare opening the last movement smacked of tin, the following strings sounded better. But the orchestra should not be blamed for this. (Except that they should not only not have looked at Rostropovich, they should have outright ignored his instructions.) Anyone to attend today, Friday, or tomorrow, Saturday, at 8PM will come away with a greater appreciation for Leonard Slatkin.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 21, 2012, 07:17:44 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 21, 2012, 05:47:32 AM
You're probably right, since i have a low opinion of most of Slava's DSCH recordings... especially the symphonies. He wasn't a good conductor and he didn't have a good orchestra and he used DSCH to further his conducting career.

Not the best conductor of not the best orchestra is inarguable (and something which we might observe of the Barshai set, meseems).

That last is an intangible, and open to discussion. He was no Volkov, for heaven's sake
; )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 21, 2012, 07:22:36 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 21, 2012, 05:47:32 AM
Ha, just read the review of his last concert in the US, which ends on the nastiest little zinger I may have ever penned.

Oh! That reminds me. I meant to ask if you perhaps had heard him do the Fourth live?  I am trending towards liking this recording, but it would certainly not be my first suggestion to anyone initially coming to the piece.  Although, I could see that performance having a positive impact live.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on June 21, 2012, 07:33:27 AM
While I think Slava's NSO 4th is a relatively poor performance,  and based on that have never been interested in listening to the rest of his NSO recordings,  I have to say that his 8th and 11th on LSO Live are my favorite performances of those symphonies.  They were among my first DSCH recordings, and my introductions to those symphonies, and I have yet to find a performance that equals, much less excels them (this refers to such recordings as Gergiev and Haitink but not some standards I haven't heard such as Barshai and Kondrashin).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 21, 2012, 08:35:10 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 21, 2012, 07:33:27 AM
While I think Slava's NSO 4th is a relatively poor performance,  and based on that have never been interested in listening to the rest of his NSO recordings,  I have to say that his 8th and 11th on LSO Live are my favorite performances of those symphonies.  They were among my first DSCH recordings, and my introductions to those symphonies, and I have yet to find a performance that equals, much less excels them (this refers to such recordings as Gergiev and Haitink but not some standards I haven't heard such as Barshai and Kondrashin).

I like Rostropovich's Shostakovich, including some of the NSO recordings. His Fifth is my favorite along with Lenny and the New York Phil in Tokyo. But Rostropovich conducts what I call the Volkov Finale: it's pure torture, grinning through the agony, and not everyone is going to respond to it positively. (It's the opposite of Lenny's triumphalism.) Some younger conductor's play it the same way now, so Slava has been influential.

While I was going through his cycle, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 13 and 14 stood out. Jeffrey, I agree with you about the live LSO 11th. Spectacular.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 21, 2012, 11:34:00 AM
Well, and now I am curious (a) to hear the Masur-led Thirteenth (thanks especially to Miró's Sock Monkey Greg) and (b) to revisit the Slava/NSO Thirteenth, which I am sure was the first I heard the entire piece, long ago . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on June 21, 2012, 01:02:17 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 21, 2012, 08:35:10 AMthe Volkov Finale: it's pure torture, grinning through the agony, and not everyone is going to respond to it positively. (It's the opposite of Lenny's triumphalism.) Some younger conductor's play it the same way now, so Slava has been influential.

Haven't heard Slava, but I know this from the agonizing Kreizberg/RNO on PentaTone.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 21, 2012, 07:11:02 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 21, 2012, 05:47:32 AM
You're probably right, since i have a low opinion of most of Slava's DSCH recordings... especially the symphonies. He wasn't a good conductor and he didn't have a good orchestra and he used DSCH to further his conducting career.

I don't know if he used Shostakovich to further his conducting career, because that's just speculation on your part, but I know Rostropovich wasn't a great conductor, but, and this is a very big BUT ;), he does have a way of communicating to the orchestral musicians exactly what he wants out of the performance or else he wouldn't have yielded such good results. He may not have the finesse of a Haitink or MTT but he did well with the minimal amount of baton technique he had.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 21, 2012, 07:57:00 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 21, 2012, 11:34:00 AM
Well, and now I am curious (a) to hear the Masur-led Thirteenth (thanks especially to Miró's Sock Monkey Greg) and (b) to revisit the Slava/NSO Thirteenth, which I am sure was the first I heard the entire piece, long ago . . . .

I bought the Masur 7th and 13th, so I'm really anxious to hear them. I heard both were great performances. I've come to really enjoy the 13th. I'm still wrapping my mind around the 14th.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 21, 2012, 08:17:57 PM
I've just got to give Bernstein a shout out for his performance of Symphony No. 7 "Leningrad". It might be a little self-indulgent, but I've never heard this symphony sound better. This performance really has some weight and that Adagio was just handled with dare I say perfection. :D This has to be my favorite 7th now. I've listened to this years ago, back when I wasn't particularly fond of Shostakovich, and it didn't make much of an impression, but now I really enjoy it. This performance is one of those situations where ignorance took over and kept me from enjoying the music. 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 21, 2012, 08:47:00 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 21, 2012, 03:54:10 AM
The only time (thus far) that I've heard the Op.77 live, it was Repin, Masur, and our band here in Boston. Dynamite!

I may have to fly up to Boston just so I can slap you in the face with a dead fish for this one, Karl. I'm SO jealous!!! >:( ;D

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on June 22, 2012, 12:35:30 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 21, 2012, 07:17:44 AM
Not the best conductor of not the best orchestra is inarguable (and something which we might observe of the Barshai set, meseems).

Oh, Orchestra aside (and the WDR SO is a very, very considerably better orchestra than the NSO, esp. in those years) but Barshai and Slava are not even remotely in the same league as far as their conducting skills are concerned. Barshai was actually a capable conductor, Rostropovich was always a great cellist.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 22, 2012, 02:25:50 AM
Just curious, are we discussing Rostropovich's physical conducting style? As in how he looked when he conducted? Or his interpretation of the music and communication with the orchestra he was conducting?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on June 22, 2012, 02:44:07 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 22, 2012, 02:25:50 AM
Just curious, are we discussing Rostropovich's physical conducting style? As in how he looked when he conducted? Or his interpretation of the music and communication with the orchestra he was conducting?

from the WETA column, which seemingly has received its final death blow (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Jowb37ixL2MJ:www.weta.org/oldfmblog/%3Fp%3D116+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&lr=lang_de%7Clang_en):

QuoteIf these are my favorite recordings with the cellist Rostropovich, there are some that are worth noting where he conducts. His undeniable understanding of the music was, when coupled with outstanding collaborators, enough to overcome his limitations as a conductor. His recordings with Maxim Vengerov and the London Symphony Orchestra of the Prokofiev and Shostakovich Violin Concertos (one of each on two Telarc CDs – lest you find the European Warner/Apex re-issue with the two Shostakovich concertos extracted unto one disc) are superb for either composer – and despite ever-stiffening competition in the Shostakovich (last year alone I've heard excellent new recordings of Daniel Hope, Leila Josefowicz, Arabella Steinbacher, and Sergey Khachatryan) they are still the recordings to judge all others against.


Prokofiev/Rachmaninov PCs #3 (SACD)
Another double-Russian/Russian combination is very appealing: Prokofiev/Rachmaninov with Rostropovich/Pletnev. Piano Concertos No.3 of both composers make as compelling a combination as an odd one – and the excellent playing, filled with excitement and delightful accents and exclamation marks, all in stunning sound from DG, make this a most worthy traversal of both concertos, even if you already have them in other versions.


DSCH: Sy. #8 (SACD)
Of his Shostakovich symphonies (the complete set – largely with the NSO – is available on Teldec), I cannot recommend many when there is always an interpretation that I'd much rather hear. The early recordings are uneven, lacking in the necessary tension, and are often let down by the NSO's lack of will or ability. Any complete set I know is preferable, be it Jansons (EMI), Barshai (Brilliant), Kitajenko (Capriccio), Kondrashin (Aulos/Melodiya) or Haitkink (Decca). The LSO recordings on the orchestras' own label are better, by-and-large, but hugely overrated. His Eighth on that label, though, is a worthy contender. Slowness in that symphony is no detriment to the grim and stark atmosphere and I rate his account above Gergiev (Philips) and Wiggelsworth (BIS), alongside Barshai and Kitajenko and only marginally behind Jansons.


DSCH: Lady Macbeth
If Rostropovich had recorded nothing but Shostakovich's Lady Macbeth of the Mtensk District, he'd have done the world of music – and the composer – a service enough to forget all the gratuitous boasting I've griped about before. With his wife, Galina Vishnevskaya as Katerina Izmailova, this is the recording that put the opera firmly back on the map (though still not firmly enough for the masterpiece it is) and it is the only recording you need to think of acquiring, if you are looking for Audio-only, at least. Any and all of these recordings serve his memory in the best possible way.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 22, 2012, 02:52:32 AM
Thanks for posting, Jens.  ;D

The Britten cello suite disc is a mighty fine one, I'm also partial to his Cello-Symphony recording.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2012, 03:58:43 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 21, 2012, 07:57:00 PM
I bought the Masur 7th and 13th, so I'm really anxious to hear them. I heard both were great performances. I've come to really enjoy the 13th. I'm still wrapping my mind around the 14th.

As a composer, I am useless as a guide for the general listening public . . . but the Fourteenth grabbed right from the start.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 22, 2012, 04:04:21 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 22, 2012, 03:58:43 AM
As a composer, I am useless as a guide for the general listening public . . . but the Fourteenth grabbed right from the start.

The 14th and 15th struck me on first listens more than any other DSCH symphony. I've had the pleasure of seeing the 15th performed live which was quite an experience, would love to see no14.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2012, 04:08:41 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 22, 2012, 02:44:07 AM
from the WETA column, which seemingly has received its final death blow (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Jowb37ixL2MJ:www.weta.org/oldfmblog/%3Fp%3D116+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&lr=lang_de%7Clang_en):

And I'll thank you, too. This recording of the Fourth, now . . . I shall agree that it largely lacks tension, and that this lack may be a significant part of why (as I think it must have been the first I heard of the symphony) I came away from this initially, not thinking all that much of the music. Yet now, much better familiar with the symphony as I am, that reduction in tensile pressure here and there I am finding considered and musical — by no means The Way it must be done (any more than I should cast such a judgement for Lenny's extraordinary Leningrad with Chicago), but I shy away from dismissing the result as weakness at the podium.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2012, 04:52:31 AM
And (FWIW) I find Slava's Fourth thoughtfully weighed, bar by bar, as opposed to Gergiev's (which, at the time when I listened to it, I should have been inclined to like), which I found wilful and capricious.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2012, 06:06:07 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 22, 2012, 04:52:31 AM
And (FWIW) I find Slava's Fourth thoughtfully weighed, bar by bar [....]

Returning to it now, I think that my long-ago problem with the CD must not have lain in Slava or the NSO, but in the environment (audio & otherwise) when I first heard it.  Again, I should really take an hour to draw up a couple of paragraphs.  And will do, after giving it a third post-reunion listen.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2012, 12:56:05 PM
Well, this must be the first day I've ever listened to the Opus 43 four times the same day. Guess I'm a phan-boy.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 22, 2012, 07:05:20 PM
I think Rostropovich is just fine in Shostakovich's music. The man knew Shostakovich so who better than somebody who was friends with him conduct his music? I may share an outsider's opinion in this regard, but I can't help but admire the man and what he's done whether on the podium, onstage with cello in hand, or away from the lighted stage.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on June 23, 2012, 01:41:47 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 22, 2012, 07:05:20 PM
I think Rostropovich is just fine in Shostakovich's music. The man knew Shostakovich so who better than somebody who was friends with him conduct his music? I may share an outsider's opinion in this regard, but I can't help but admire the man and what he's done whether on the podium, onstage with cello in hand, or away from the lighted stage.

I'm friends with a few composers. You can bet they don't want me to conduct their work.  ;) (But I know what you mean, obviously.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 23, 2012, 06:42:48 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 23, 2012, 01:41:47 AM
I'm friends with a few composers. You can bet they don't want me to conduct their work.  ;) (But I know what you mean, obviously.)

:P
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 24, 2012, 09:55:53 PM
Quite a good performance of the 5th with Bychkov conducting the Cologne Radio Symphony Orchestra:

http://www.youtube.com/v/RGjb8ygLBhc&feature=related
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 25, 2012, 11:39:16 AM
They're on top of it!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2012, 10:01:37 AM
Rediscovering how keen I am for the Thirteenth Symphony (which was one of the first I heard, back when I was a mere slip of an undergraduate).  This comparative listening of the first movement is eye- and ear-opening in unforeseen ways.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 26, 2012, 10:17:49 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 26, 2012, 10:01:37 AM
Rediscovering how keen I am for the Thirteenth Symphony (which was one of the first I heard, back when I was a mere slip of an undergraduate).  This comparative listening of the first movement is eye- and ear-opening in unforeseen ways.

Which performances are you comparing, Karl?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2012, 10:32:24 AM
So far, just the first movement, John:

Quote from: karlhenning on June 26, 2012, 09:33:58 AM
Keen to do this again, and taking a deep breath, all the same:

Дмитри Дмитриевич [ Dmitri Dmitriyevich (Shostakovich) ]
Symphony № 13 « Babi Yar », Op.113
Mvt i. Babi Yar. Adagio

Nicola Ghiuselev; Men of the Choral Arts Society of Washington; National Symphony Orchestra; Slava
Sergei Leiferkus; Men of the New York Choral Artists; New York Philharmonic Orchestra: Masur
Artur Eizen; Basses of the Russian State Choral Cappella; Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra; Kondrashin (a prior acquisition)
Peter Mikuláš; Male Choruses of the Prague Philharmonic Choir and of the Kühn Mixed Choruses; Prague Symphony Orchestra; Максим Дмитриевич [ Maksim Dmitriyevich (Shostakovich) ] (a prior acquisition)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 26, 2012, 11:02:30 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 26, 2012, 10:32:24 AM
So far, just the first movement, John:

The only ones from your list I have yet to hear are Kondrashin's and M. Shostakovich's. I own both of their cycles but haven't explored them in depth (yet).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2012, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 26, 2012, 10:32:24 AM
So far, just the first movement, John

The back of yet another envelope . . . .

Slava &al. – The opening has a plaintive, sorrowful cast;  he has them play it, as if (you see this coming, but it’s true) they were collectively, one great cello.  The men’s choir comes in like a delicate eulogy.  The horns and trumpet, sweetly lyrical in the passage after the choir sing “I feel as old today / as the Jewish race itself.”  Ghiuselev comes in, singing on the monotone in character very like a Deacon intoning a Psalm in the Russian Orthodox liturgy; I like his delivery throughout the movement, a very great deal.  More than a little strange to find that the National Symphony brass are more than holding their own against the NY Phil;  but, that’s what my ears tell me.  Overall, this performance grabs me as intensely emotive, without slamming the gas pedal.  Marvelous quiet entrance for “Above Babi Yar the wild grass rustles,” emerging from the tam-tam crash. [duration: 16'17]

Masur &al. – The initial entrance of the men’s choir is a bit on the martial side, which right away strikes me as different (not at all wrong, mind you).  Leiferkus is as ever in excellent voice;  perhaps a bit operatic compared to ‘the field’ here.  (Again, not to suggest that this is anything like wrong.)  Orchestra strikes me generally as restrained;  I don’t want them to play with abandon, mind you, but I often feel they are not quite present and accounted for.  Chief complaint on this head:  the build-up and climax after “They are knocking down the door!” – “No, it’s the ice breaking.” is under-powered.  Was he saving up for the very close of the movement?  Still, I think there should have been more juice there. [duration: 15'14]

Kondrashin &al. – One obvious disadvantage from the outset:  Unfortunately the exposed muted trumpets right away sound less in control of their instruments, I won’t say merely in comparison to this field, but generallyEizen has a wonderful voice.  He opens rather declamatory & fiery – which is entirely good (without negating other good approaches);  it’s a poem, and (a) the poem sustains a variety of deliveries, as well as (b) the music of that passage being written in a way which is equally flexible.  On the whole, Kondrashin takes a brisk view of the movement.  (It is worth remembering that upon Mravinsky’s demurring, it was Kondrashin who conducted the symphony’s première, 18 December 1962;  this recording dates from 1967.)  In the Kondrashin cycle, this symphony (with the Leningrad) suffers the most from flare and distortion during the fortissimo sections.  The “Above Babi Yar the wild grass rustles” chorus mentioned above, which is so breathtakingly quiet in Slava’s account, here is a bit on the matter-of-fact side – which it is hard for me not to find a little disappointing, anti-poetic.  (Maybe I’ll feel otherwise to-morrow, hey.) [13'40 – yes, that’s right!]

Shostakovich fils &al. – The trumpet-&-bassi opening is, I think, a marvelous discovery here.  It has not the dourly purposeful tone of the Masur, nor the unhurried malevolence which seems not far below the surface in Kondrashin.  Nor elegiac, like Slava’s (which is still such a pleasant sonic memory).  But Maksim Dmitriyevich has found a brilliant pace, like a slow ritual dance – it’s the yurodivy, dancing without heeding whether anyone else nearby is dancing, as well.  The entrance of the men’s choir is delicate, not greatly unlike Slava; yet the size of the choir generates a certain mass so that, although the keening strings are a bit louder, the choir do not suffer any seeming of being in the background: they are the musical matter, and the strings are a highlightMikuláš’s voice is lovely, timbrally a fine instrument for the role;  he seems to be a Slovak, and at times his Russian enunciation seems a bit west of center, but that is no serious quarrel. The orchestra is by turns powerful, sweetly lyrical, subtle.  Maksim Dmitriyevich’s shaping of the movement, and handling of the band, are masterly.  At the point already referred to, with the chorus singing “Above Babi Yar the wild grass rustles,” they sing with such touching weariness (I mean, dramatized weariness, not a choir who have run out of steam) that the text is illuminated yet more richly. [duration: 16'45]

Although I have more than once in the past pounded the table for Maksim Dmitriyevich’s set, I came to this task without a dog in the race, as it were – if anything, my ears were keen to take in what Slava and Masur did with the piece, on their own terms.  That said (and honestly said, too): of the four, Maksim Dmitriyevich grabs my musical collar as a clear favorite.  You’ll note that his account of the first movement is easily the longest in duration by the clock, but there is no flagging of intensity in the least.  While both Masur and Kondrashin certainly give a fine account of the piece, I’ve got to give Slava the palme d’argent here, largely for an extra degree of poetry, that musical intangible.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 26, 2012, 01:20:33 PM
Most interesting, Karl. I recall you giving M. Shostakvoich's cycle high praise. I really need to listen to that cycle.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 26, 2012, 02:00:53 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 26, 2012, 12:28:03 PM
The back of yet another envelope . . . .
...
I've got to give Slava the palme d'argent here, largely for an extra degree of poetry, that musical intangible.


(http://www.brikcius.com/Images/MstislavRostropovich.conductor.jpg)


HA!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 27, 2012, 03:05:43 AM
Those were the four I had to hand, yesterday. Yestereven, I rooted about for the Haitink and Barshai accounts of the Opus 113. Will spin the first mvt from each this morning, probably after orbiting Uranus.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 27, 2012, 11:08:00 AM
These landed today:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000009OQT.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000JQY0.01.L.jpg)

So far I'm greatly impressed with Previn's Shostakovich. Listening to his 4th performance right now.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 27, 2012, 12:04:04 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 26, 2012, 02:00:53 PM
(http://www.brikcius.com/Images/MstislavRostropovich.conductor.jpg)


Rostropovich looks like he's about to take a bite out of his fist. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on June 27, 2012, 05:31:18 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 27, 2012, 11:08:00 AMSo far I'm greatly impressed with Previn's Shostakovich. Listening to his 4th performance right now.

I have singles of Previn's 4 and 5, and recall the sound being pretty harsh. Possibly you have remasters?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 27, 2012, 05:33:10 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on June 27, 2012, 05:31:18 PM
I have singles of Previn's 4 and 5, and recall the sound being pretty harsh. Possibly you have remasters?

Yes, they are remasters and they sound quite good.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 28, 2012, 04:07:25 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 21, 2012, 07:57:00 PM
I bought the Masur 7th and 13th, so I'm really anxious to hear them. I heard both were great performances. I've come to really enjoy the 13th. I'm still wrapping my mind around the 14th.

Part of the temptation at BRO to which I yielded yesterday was another recording of the Fourteenth, with Kremerata Baltica, and a singleton from your well-liked Caetani cycle, John: the Ninth & Tenth.  At $3.99, I couldn't ask for a better risk:reward profile ; )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 28, 2012, 06:40:50 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 28, 2012, 04:07:25 AM
Part of the temptation at BRO to which I yielded yesterday was another recording of the Fourteenth, with Kremerata Baltica, and a singleton from your well-liked Caetani cycle, John: the Ninth & Tenth.  At $3.99, I couldn't ask for a better risk:reward profile ; )

Cool, Karl. Let me know your thoughts of the Caetani once you've heard it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on June 28, 2012, 05:35:37 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 28, 2012, 06:40:50 AMCool, Karl. Let me know your thoughts of the Caetani once you've heard it.

Yes, definitely looking forward to a second opinion on this. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 28, 2012, 06:16:29 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on June 28, 2012, 05:35:37 PM
Yes, definitely looking forward to a second opinion on this. :)

Even though I own the box set and enjoy it, I look forward to hearing Karl's thoughts on this recording of the 9th and 10th.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on June 28, 2012, 07:10:04 PM
Finished a first run through of the Fitzwilliam SQ box of the Quartets.  First impression is that, other than the last CD of the set (SQs 14 and 15),  I'll be reaching for my other boxes (Emerson, Mandelring) more than I will this one.  The last two quartets, however, better performed than I remember from the other two cycles, although now of course I'll need to go back to those to be sure.

And I still have (possibly) tomorrow,  the second installment of the Pacifica Quartet cycle in progress to listen to.

And after that I have the box of song cycles/Lady Macbeth to go through, although there are other things in the listening pile that have been waiting longer for my attention.  But I haven't forgotten you, Eyeresist.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 28, 2012, 07:44:57 PM
Tonight, I've been digging this performance a lot:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0010M6HCM.01.L.jpg)

Previn knows his Shostakovich. I should have explored these Previn recordings sooner, but I suppose now is better than never. I really like his 4th and 5th. I thought the 10th was good but could have used more firepower in the finale. I haven't heard his Babi Yar yet. Kondrashin's Dresden performances landed today so I'm going to be digging into those as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 30, 2012, 08:48:47 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 28, 2012, 07:10:04 PM
Finished a first run through of the Fitzwilliam SQ box of the Quartets.  First impression is that, other than the last CD of the set (SQs 14 and 15),  I'll be reaching for my other boxes (Emerson, Mandelring) more than I will this one.  The last two quartets, however, better performed than I remember from the other two cycles, although now of course I'll need to go back to those to be sure.

And I still have (possibly) tomorrow,  the second installment of the Pacifica Quartet cycle in progress to listen to.

And after that I have the box of song cycles/Lady Macbeth to go through, although there are other things in the listening pile that have been waiting longer for my attention.  But I haven't forgotten you, Eyeresist.

How is the Mandelring Quartet box set, Jeffrey? I own the Emerson's and the partial cycle from the original members of the Borodin Quartet on Chandos. I'm not a big fan of SQs, but the Mandelring has had me intrigued for awhile.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on July 01, 2012, 02:11:21 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 30, 2012, 08:48:47 PM
How is the Mandelring Quartet box set, Jeffrey? I own the Emerson's and the partial cycle from the original members of the Borodin Quartet on Chandos. I'm not a big fan of SQs, but the Mandelring has had me intrigued for awhile.

Mandelring DSCH:

First Impressions and Shostakovich (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/08/first-impressions-and-shostakovich.html)

Shostakovich with the Mandelring Quartett (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/05/shostakovich-with-mandelring-quartett.html)

Best Recordings of 2011 (#9) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/12/best-recordings-of-2011-9.html)

Notes from the 2011 Salzburg Festival ( 18 )
Shostakovich Cycle (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/09/notes-from-2011-salzburg-festival-18.html)


In summary: They are a luxury edition addition to your collection, easy to enjoy... and I find them highly recommendable, but I'd never suggest that they are essential to a DSCH-SQ4t collection... certainly not given the few parameters you mention. They are, however, sufficiently different from the Emersons (and very, very different from the Borodins -- whose first or second set are the touchstone -- of course). First they're not live, no applause, better sound, broadly speaking with a rounder and smoother, more emotive beauty... less cool stringency. Speckless, for better or worse.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 01, 2012, 06:22:01 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 01, 2012, 02:11:21 AM
Mandelring DSCH:

First Impressions and Shostakovich (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/08/first-impressions-and-shostakovich.html)

Shostakovich with the Mandelring Quartett (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/05/shostakovich-with-mandelring-quartett.html)

Best Recordings of 2011 (#9) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/12/best-recordings-of-2011-9.html)

Notes from the 2011 Salzburg Festival ( 18 )
Shostakovich Cycle (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/09/notes-from-2011-salzburg-festival-18.html)


In summary: They are a luxury edition to your collection, easy to enjoy... and I find them highly recommendable, but I'd never suggest that they are essential to a DSCH-SQ4t collection... certainly not given the few parameters you mention. They are, however, sufficiently different from the Emersons (and very, very different from the Borodins -- whose first or second set are the touchstone -- of course). First they're not live, no applause, better sound, broadly speaking with a rounder and smoother, more emotive beauty... less cool stringency. Speckless, for better or worse.

Thanks, Jens! Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 02, 2012, 04:11:31 PM
I grew up listening to Shostakovich and knew most of his symphonies and other major works from my teens but for some reason I never listened to the Leningrad Symphony until this week. As I was listening to it I was struck by how completely unpropagandistic and unpatriotic a work it was, I was amazed, I had expected some piece of political music and instead here was a symphony that sounded pretty much like 4 and 6, grumpy, oppositional and definitely not 'soviet', with the famous war-theme depicting anything other than the Wehrmacht. (For my money 8 is much more of a war symphony, though the ending is hardly triumphant).

How did Shostakovich get away with it? I suppose his symphonies 2, 3, 11 and 12 are official works, but the rest are anything but, even 5 (which, objectively, is just as disaffected as 4, only put in a tighter form). If Shostakovich had been a poet or a novelist he would have been shot round about 1933. I'd be interested in people's thoughts on this.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 02, 2012, 04:44:00 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 02, 2012, 04:11:31 PM
I grew up listening to Shostakovich and knew most of his symphonies and other major works from my teens but for some reason I never listened to the Leningrad Symphony until this week. As I was listening to it I was struck by how completely unpropagandistic and unpatriotic a work it was, I was amazed, I had expected some piece of political music and instead here was a symphony that sounded pretty much like 4 and 6, grumpy, oppositional and definitely not 'soviet', with the famous war-theme depicting anything other than the Wehrmacht. (For my money 8 is much more of a war symphony, though the ending is hardly triumphant).

How did Shostakovich get away with it? I suppose his symphonies 2, 3, 11 and 12 are official works, but the rest are anything but, even 5 (which, objectively, is just as disaffected as 4, only put in a tighter form). If Shostakovich had been a poet or a novelist he would have been shot round about 1933. I'd be interested in people's thoughts on this.

Some interesting thoughts. One question in your post stuck out like a sore thumb:

QuoteHow did Shostakovich get away with it?

Without wearing my own hands out, let me give you the short answer: he got away with it because Stalin allowed him to, but, at the same time, Stalin kept a very close watch on Shostakovich's activities making sure he didn't get too far out of line. But one of the things we should bear in mind, Stalin had many of Shostakovich's close friends and his own sister exiled. This was his way of keeping him in check. This also caused Shostakovich to continually watch his back. Whether there are hidden messages in his music or not has been fiercely debated by scholars for many years. According to Michael Tilson Thomas, one reason why Shostakovich didn't get killed or exiled had to do with Stalin's own sentimental attachment to a song Shostakovich wrote, but I think Shostakovich was just smart enough to be careful about what he composed, especially after being blasted by Soviet propaganda papers after Stalin witnessed Lady Macbeth live. He remained on very thin ice from that moment on.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on July 02, 2012, 06:39:29 PM
I think he also got away with it because he was generally acknowledged to be the greatest composer in the USSR. If he was gone, who was there to fill that vacancy? As a matter of national prestige, they couldn't do away with him.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 02, 2012, 06:45:07 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 02, 2012, 06:39:29 PM
I think he also got away with it because he was generally acknowledged to be the greatest composer in the USSR. If he was gone, who was there to fill that vacancy? As a matter of national prestige, they couldn't do away with him.

This is also a good point. He achieved fame early on with his first symphony being composed when he was 19. I read a good quote from writer/composer Nicolas Nabokov the other day that said:

"To me, he seemed like a trapped man, whose only wish was to be left alone, to the peace of his own art and to the tragic destiny to which he had been forced to resign himself."
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on July 02, 2012, 06:50:19 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 02, 2012, 06:45:07 PMI read a good quote from writer/composer Nicolas Nabokov the other day that said:

"To me, he seemed like a trapped man, whose only wish was to be left alone, to the peace of his own art and to the tragic destiny to which he had been forced to resign himself."

That describes me too :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 02, 2012, 06:53:42 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 02, 2012, 06:50:19 PM
That describes me too :D

Somebody asked me the other day what is about Shostakovich's music that I relate to? I would say his struggle to conform to the rigid rules of the Soviet regime. He had to find a way to be himself just like we all have to find a way to be ourself in the narrow confines of the society we live in.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on July 02, 2012, 07:10:48 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 02, 2012, 06:53:42 PMSomebody asked me the other day what is about Shostakovich's music that I relate to? I would say his struggle to conform to the rigid rules of the Soviet regime. He had to find a way to be himself just like we all have to find a way to be ourself in the narrow confines of the society we live in.

Hmm. Depends what you mean by "conform". Did he want to believe, did he want to be the New Soviet Man? Or did he want to be himself, and only put up a show of conformity in order to survive?

He grew up under Soviet rule, and with symphonies 2 and 3 did appear to be reconciling himself to the dominant ideology, after a fashion. But the criticism he encountered seemed to be not really based on ideology, but upon people cynically gaming the system, casting aspersions on rivals and objects of dislike. I've read (somewhere) that Shostakovich remained to some extent a believer in the ideals of Communism, but after the Terror he must have realised that the USSR was only a travesty of these ideals.

From this, I would say the conformity of his later years was only a shield, a survival tool. But then, it is also true that the man becomes the mask he wears....

In conclusion: Dmitri was not a happy bunny.
Title: Re: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 02, 2012, 07:10:57 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 02, 2012, 06:53:42 PM
Somebody asked me the other day what is about Shostakovich's music that I relate to?

In my case: the beauty and integrity of the music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on July 02, 2012, 07:17:11 PM
What do you mean by "integrity"?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 02, 2012, 07:29:47 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 02, 2012, 07:10:48 PM
Hmm. Depends what you mean by "conform". Did he want to believe, did he want to be the New Soviet Man? Or did he want to be himself, and only put up a show of conformity in order to survive?

He grew up under Soviet rule, and with symphonies 2 and 3 did appear to be reconciling himself to the dominant ideology, after a fashion. But the criticism he encountered seemed to be not really based on ideology, but upon people cynically gaming the system, casting aspersions on rivals and objects of dislike. I've read (somewhere) that Shostakovich remained to some extent a believer in the ideals of Communism, but after the Terror he must have realised that the USSR was only a travesty of these ideals.

From this, I would say the conformity of his later years was only a shield, a survival tool. But then, it is also true that the man becomes the mask he wears....

In conclusion: Dmitri was not a happy bunny.

Interesting view, eyeresist. It's hard for me to say whether he conformed or not, because there are still so many unanswered questions regarding his life that haven't even been answered. Like, for example, what's the meaning of the 5th symphony? What's the idea of the 9th --- was it a celebration of Soviet victory from the Germans or was it a sarcastic musical statement depicting Stalin as an egomaniac? What's the meaning behind the Passacaglia in Violin Concerto No. 1? What does this heartfelt outpouring of emotion symbolize? So many questions...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on July 02, 2012, 08:05:05 PM
I don't think the 9th had any sort of program. It's an exercise in contrasting moods.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 02, 2012, 08:27:44 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 02, 2012, 08:05:05 PM
I don't think the 9th had any sort of program. It's an exercise in contrasting moods.

Evidently, the Soviet authorities thought differently since it was a work that got Shostakovich into a lot of hot water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._9_(Shostakovich)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on July 02, 2012, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 02, 2012, 08:27:44 PMEvidently, the Soviet authorities thought differently since it was a work that got Shostakovich into a lot of hot water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._9_(Shostakovich) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._9_(Shostakovich))

Who am I to contradict the Politburo?  0:)  The response of the New York World-Telegram is hilarious: "The Russian composer should not have expressed his feelings about the defeat of Nazism in such a childish manner". Yes, Mom!

Listening to the 9th now (Kondrashin). It reminds me of the string quartets, particularly the early ones, with its mix of folksy dance rhythms and pathos. I think it might do well in a quartet arrangement.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 02, 2012, 09:27:58 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 02, 2012, 09:12:39 PM
Who am I to contradict the Politburo?  0:)  The response of the New York World-Telegram is hilarious: "The Russian composer should not have expressed his feelings about the defeat of Nazism in such a childish manner". Yes, Mom!

Listening to the 9th now (Kondrashin). It reminds me of the string quartets, particularly the early ones, with its mix of folksy dance rhythms and pathos. I think it might do well in a quartet arrangement.

I find it amusing that the Soviet authorities reacted so negatively towards it. The whole work is a joke and cartoonish, but this, of course, doesn't make it any less fun to listen to. I need to revisit it. I've neglected it for too long, although it's a work I've always enjoyed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on July 03, 2012, 12:31:22 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 02, 2012, 08:05:05 PM
I don't think the 9th had any sort of program. It's an exercise in contrasting moods.

That would have been part of the problem.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/gergievs-munich-shostakovich-symphonies_11.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/gergievs-munich-shostakovich-symphonies_11.html)
Quote
...At a symposium earlier that day, Gergiev grumbled that to ignore the humor in DSCH was to miss the point of his music entirely. That's particularly true for the Ninth Symphony, coy and glittery and frivolously charming, with a brass section that sounds like the Keystone Kops at band-camp. Dainty ballet-girls and beer hall oompah-bands never existed in such harmonious proximity. Deliberately undercutting the mythical status that Beethoven set for a "Ninth Symphony" already made a (musical) statement in and of itself. Doing so in the summer of 1945, following the defeat of Nazi Germany and after announcements in the press had suggested a "Victory Symphony", added another, political, dimension. Imagine collective expectations of a high-holy paean to Stalin, vanquisher of evil and preserver of the people. And then you get the symphonic equivalent of "Ding Dong the Witch is Dead." In a place and at a time where being apolitical (never mind wrong-political) was a crime, that was strong stuff.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: John Copeland on July 03, 2012, 04:54:58 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 02, 2012, 09:27:58 PM
I find it amusing that the Soviet authorities reacted so negatively towards it. The whole work is a joke and cartoonish, but this, of course, doesn't make it any less fun to listen to. I need to revisit it. I've neglected it for too long, although it's a work I've always enjoyed.

Shosty, it seems, was quite happy to drop little dittys and daft wee tunes into his major symphonic works. 
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-sd4H9AkTX4E/T_LrQMgK52I/AAAAAAAAACQ/ZnssnvR-1wk/s576/hg.jpg)
Title: Re: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 03, 2012, 05:09:03 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 02, 2012, 09:27:58 PM
I find it amusing that the Soviet authorities reacted so negatively towards it.

Well, it was rather serious business, actually, and (not to seem to brow-beat you) I'm not sure amusement is quite an apt response. It would not be until Stalin had died, that Dmitri Dmitriyevich would write another symphony. In that interval, he eschewed that genre for a reason.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 03, 2012, 06:56:16 AM
Quote from: Scots John on July 03, 2012, 04:54:58 AM
Shosty, it seems, was quite happy to drop little dittys and daft wee tunes into his major symphonic works. 
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-sd4H9AkTX4E/T_LrQMgK52I/AAAAAAAAACQ/ZnssnvR-1wk/s576/hg.jpg)

:D

By the way, welcome back, John!
Title: Re: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 03, 2012, 07:01:03 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 03, 2012, 05:09:03 AM
Well, it was rather serious business, actually, and (not to seem to brow-beat you) I'm not sure amusement is quite an apt response. It would not be until Stalin had died, that Dmitri Dmitriyevich would write another symphony. In that interval, he eschewed that genre for a reason.

Yes, I know it was serious business, but what I don't know about is the level of suffering Shostakovich had to endure. None of us know unless we were there with him or knew him. All we can do is read about his life and try to wrap our minds around what it was like for him.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 03, 2012, 07:18:32 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 03, 2012, 12:31:22 AM
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/gergievs-munich-shostakovich-symphonies_11.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/05/gergievs-munich-shostakovich-symphonies_11.html)

Re the Ninth: "Imagine collective expectations of a high-holy paean to Stalin, vanquisher of evil and preserver of the people. And then you get the symphonic equivalent of "Ding Dong the Witch is Dead."

Brilliant, Jens  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: not edward on July 03, 2012, 08:42:44 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 02, 2012, 09:27:58 PM
I find it amusing that the Soviet authorities reacted so negatively towards it. The whole work is a joke and cartoonish, but this, of course, doesn't make it any less fun to listen to. I need to revisit it. I've neglected it for too long, although it's a work I've always enjoyed.
I'm not sure it's all a joke, though. Much of the 9th may be light-hearted but my favourite performances tend to be ones that let the listener know that yes, we're having a good time, but nonetheless there's something nasty in the woodshed. (Kosler would be a prime example of this--IMO one of the great DSCH recordings.)

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 03, 2012, 11:16:47 AM
Quote from: edward on July 03, 2012, 08:42:44 AM
I'm not sure it's all a joke, though. Much of the 9th may be light-hearted but my favourite performances tend to be ones that let the listener know that yes, we're having a good time, but nonetheless there's something nasty in the woodshed. (Kosler would be a prime example of this--IMO one of the great DSCH recordings.)

The Presto movement of the 9th is a perfect example of this flamboyant light-heartedness but with some grim touches. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: nesf on July 03, 2012, 11:44:02 AM
Noob question:

Recommended listening order for Shostakovich's String Quartets?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Conor71 on July 03, 2012, 11:58:02 AM


Quote from: nesf on Today at 03:44:02 AM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=164.msg641339#msg641339)
Noob question:

Recommended listening order for Shostakovich's String Quartets?

I listened to them in sequence (1, 2, 3 etc..) - theres a nice progression in style and mood from somewhat playful/traditional in the early works to more serious/experimental in the later quartets. If you want to start with highlights for me that would be 8th and I also like the 15th too :)
Edit: Have you heard the Piano Trios yet? - I think you would find them appealing as well and both are very worthwhile!

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: nesf on July 03, 2012, 12:09:55 PM
Quote from: Conor71 on July 03, 2012, 11:58:02 AM
Edit: Have you heard the Piano Trios yet? - I think you would find them appealing as well and both are very worthwhile!


Just no. 2. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Conor71 on July 03, 2012, 12:43:53 PM


Quote from: nesf on Today at 04:09:55 AM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=164.msg641347#msg641347)
Just no. 2. :)

I have this set which i think very highly of - it has both Piano Trios, the Quintet, Cello Sonata and a couple of String Quartets as well and is only 5 quid off the Amazon marketplace if you are interested.
I would recommend a full set of the String Quartets in future though - they are wonderful works and work exploring in full!  8)

[asin]B002ZBTWMO[/asin]

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: nesf on July 03, 2012, 12:51:29 PM
I have the Emerson Quartet set of the string quartets already. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on July 03, 2012, 12:53:53 PM
Quote from: nesf on July 03, 2012, 12:51:29 PM
I have the Emerson Quartet set of the string quartets already. :)
Listen to that in order, then. No bad pieces there, and nothing composed just to please Stalin.

Piano trio no. 2 is a masterpiece, and the violin & viola sonatas, too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on July 03, 2012, 03:06:40 PM
Quote from: nesf on July 03, 2012, 11:44:02 AM
Noob question:

Recommended listening order for Shostakovich's String Quartets?

From the top. (Or bottom, depending on how you look at it.) In any case: might as well start with No.1 and work your way through them chronologically... they're masterpieces all and No.1 starts off particularly strong.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 04, 2012, 12:04:16 PM
Hey Jens,

You mentioned in a post to me that you really enjoyed this recording:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B007ZEG3Z0.01.L.jpg)

The only thing holding me back from this recording is the expensive price tag.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on July 04, 2012, 02:22:14 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 04, 2012, 12:04:16 PM
Hey Jens,

You mentioned in a post to me that you really enjoyed this recording:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B007ZEG3Z0.01.L.jpg)

The only thing holding me back from this recording is the expensive price tag.

I did, I did... but I'll go over it again and compare to another one (Gergiev / Matsuev) that stood out of recent DSCH-PC recordings (incl. Gulda / Gramola and yet two more that don't come to mind) to see if one has a clear edge over the other.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 04, 2012, 03:01:28 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 04, 2012, 02:22:14 PM
I did, I did... but I'll go over it again and compare to another one (Gergiev / Matsuev) that stood out of recent DSCH-PC recordings (incl. Gulda / Gramola and yet two more that don't come to mind) to see if one has a clear edge over the other.

No need to do that Jens. I see that the Matsuev/Gergiev isn't very highly recommended. Of recent Shostakovich PC recordings, I like this one the best:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B006OGSS80.01.L.jpg)

But my favorite recording of these two PCs comes from Hamelin/Litton on Hyperion.

As for the VC No. 1, I would seriously like to have a pristine recording of the Repin/P. Jarvi YouTube video I posted a page or so back. That was an intense performance. Jarvi exerted himself rather well in that performance (I'm not a big fan of his conducting).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on July 04, 2012, 03:39:16 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 04, 2012, 03:01:28 PM
No need to do that Jens. I see that the Matsuev/Gergiev isn't very highly recommended. O

Hmm... for what it's worth, I think it's one of the few Matsuev-and-or-Gergiev recordings that I think are quite outstanding. Also best coupling since Hamelin / Litton.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 04, 2012, 03:43:29 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 04, 2012, 03:39:16 PM
Hmm... for what it's worth, I think it's one of the few Matsuev-and-or-Gergiev recordings that I think are quite outstanding. Also best coupling since Hamelin / Litton.

I'll check it out, Jens. Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on July 10, 2012, 09:30:29 AM
any one familiar with Gianandrea Noseda with the Danish National Symphony Orchestra and the cellist Enrico Dindo's recording of the cello concertos on Chandos?  I'm thinking about getting that CD. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 09:51:50 AM
Quote from: PaulR on July 10, 2012, 09:30:29 AM
any one familiar with Gianandrea Noseda with the Danish National Symphony Orchestra and the cellist Enrico Dindo's recording of the cello concertos on Chandos?  I'm thinking about getting that CD.

Haven't heard this Noseda recording but I haven't heard much feedback about it either. Anyway, I'm curious which performances do you own of Shostakovich's VCs?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on July 10, 2012, 10:05:23 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 09:51:50 AM
Haven't heard this Noseda recording but I haven't heard much feedback about it either. Anyway, I'm curious which performances do you own of Shostakovich's VCs?
Venegrov/Rostropovich/LSO (Both), Oistrakh/NYPO/Mitropolous for #1, Oistrakh/Kondrashin/MPSO for #2, Hope/Maxim Shostakovich/BBC Symphony Orchestra, Khachatryan/Masur/ONF
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 10:15:40 AM
Quote from: PaulR on July 10, 2012, 10:05:23 AM
Venegrov/Rostropovich/LSO (Both), Oistrakh/NYPO/Mitropolous for #1, Oistrakh/Kondrashin/MPSO for #2, Hope/Maxim Shostakovich/BBC Symphony Orchestra, Khachatryan/Masur/ONF

Everybody talks about how great Oistrakh's performance was and honestly I don't think much of it. I'm beginning to dislike Vengerov's approach altogether to the violin. I haven't heard Hope/M. Shostakovich yet, but I didn't like Hope's recording of Berg/Britten concerti. His tone just isn't there. Khachatryan is one of my favorites. Outstanding performance IMHO. Josefowicz/Oramo was awful. I'm beginning to dislike Mullova/Previn. Steinbacher/Nelsons, aside from the Khachatryan/Masur, is another top choice of mine. I also just listened to Batiashvili/Salonen and was incredibly impressed with it. I'll be listening to this one a lot as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on July 10, 2012, 10:17:47 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 10:15:40 AM
Everybody talks about how great Oistrakh's performance was and honestly I don't think much of it. I'm beginning to dislike Vengerov's approach altogether to the violin. I haven't heard Hope/M. Shostakovich yet, but I didn't like Hope's recording of Berg/Britten concerti. His tone just isn't there. Khachatryan is one of my favorites. Outstanding performance IMHO. Josefowicz/Oramo was awful. I'm beginning to dislike Mullova/Previn. Steinbacher/Nelsons, aside from the Khachatryan/Masur, is another top choice of mine. I also just listened to Batiashvili/Salonen and was incredibly impressed with it. I'll be listening to this one a lot as well.
You're hard to please :P
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 10:56:38 AM
Quote from: PaulR on July 10, 2012, 10:17:47 AM
You're hard to please :P

Well, you're probably right. I am pretty hard to please, but let's bear in mind that all of the violinists who are well-known who tackle Shosty's VCs are top-notch musicians. I may disagree with his/her interpretation, but this doesn't change my opinion of them as great musicians. They wouldn't be where they are today had they not put in the necessary work to be recognized. Like, for example, Josefowicz is a good musician, but I don't care for her style, especially in Shosty's VC No. 1. I think she's too edgy and I don't care for her tone on violin at all. The same with Mordkovitch, which is another performance I listened to recently and found distasteful. It all comes down to what you admire most in a performance. I look for 1. a collaborative effort from the soloist/conductor (i. e. both are on the same page interpretatively), 2. a warm tone from the violinist, 3. all the technical demands of the concerto to be met, and 4. both the soloist's and conductor's attention to the subtleties and details of the music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on July 10, 2012, 10:59:12 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 10:56:38 AM
Well, you're probably right. I am pretty hard to please, but let's bear in mind that all of the violinists who are well-known who tackle Shosty's VCs are top-notch musicians. I may disagree with his/her interpretation, but this doesn't change my opinion of them as great musicians. They wouldn't be where they are today had they not put in the necessary work to be recognized. Like, for example, Josefowicz is a good musician, but I don't care for her style, especially in Shosty's VC No. 1. I think she's too edgy and I don't care for her tone on violin at all. The same with Mordkovitch, which is another performance I listened to recently and found distasteful. It all comes down to what you admire most in a performance. I look for 1. a collaborative effort from the soloist/conductor (i. e. both are on the same page interpretatively), 2. a warm tone from the violinist, 3. all the technical demands of the concerto to be met, and 4. both the soloist's and conductor's attention to the subtleties and details of the music.
I'm currently listening to the Khachatryan/Masur, enjoying his playing, but I am not totally convinced of Masur leading the orchestra. 

EDIT:  Not sure I care for the opening of the Passacaglia.  Seems far too quiet, far too polished to my ears.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 11:05:24 AM
Quote from: PaulR on July 10, 2012, 10:59:12 AM
I'm currently listening to the Khachatryan/Masur, enjoying his playing, but I am not totally convinced of Masur leading the orchestra.

I understand this as I feel this way as well. I thought more energy from Masur from the podium could have been beneficial to the performance, but I suppose we have to take what we get. I do find it a bit strange Khachatryan picked Masur as his collaborator, but I do think both of them saw eye-to-eye. What Masur may lack in energy, he makes up for in providing an eerie backdrop. I like the way Masur let Khachatryan shine and be heard. I admire that kind of egoless generosity.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 11:07:54 AM
Quote from: PaulR on July 10, 2012, 10:59:12 AMEDIT:  Not sure I care for the opening of the Passacaglia.  Seems far too quiet, far too polished to my ears.

I thought this Passacaglia was handled beautifully. It's not as heart-wrenching as say Vengerov/Rostropovich, but I just don't like Vengerov's tone and approach to the violin, which, for me, is a deal-breaker.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on July 10, 2012, 11:10:43 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 11:05:24 AM
I understand this as I feel this way as well. I thought more energy from Masur from the podium could have been beneficial to the performance, but I suppose we have to take what we get. I do find it a bit strange Khachatryan picked Masur as his collaborator, but I do think both of them saw eye-to-eye. What Masur may lack in energy, he makes up for in providing an eerie backdrop. I like the way Masur let Khachatryan shine and be heard. I admire that kind of egoless generosity.
It seems to me that Masur takes this up as a typical violin concerto, with bursts of energy when the Khachatryan isn't doing much, but, as I said in the WAYLT thread, I find this to be more of a symphonic concerto than usual in how it is constructed, and Masur makes too much of an effort to lo let Khachatryan shine that hinders the performance.   
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on July 10, 2012, 11:12:29 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 11:07:54 AM
I thought this Passacaglia was handled beautifully. It's not as heart-wrenching as say Vengerov/Rostropovich, but I just don't like Vengerov's tone and approach to the violin, which, for me, is a deal-breaker.
I was merely talking about the opening of the movement, I loved Rostropovich's handling of the opening.

EDIT:  He makes up for the opening of the Passacaglia with a superb opening of the Burlesca, with a great ending.  I still prefer Venegrov/Rostropovich/LSO, though, as I like Venegrov's tone for this piece. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 10, 2012, 11:15:40 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 10:56:38 AM
Well, you're probably right. I am pretty hard to please, but let's bear in mind that all of the violinists who are well-known who tackle Shosty's VCs are top-notch musicians. I may disagree with his/her interpretation, but this doesn't change my opinion of them as great musicians. They wouldn't be where they are today had they not put in the necessary work to be recognized. Like, for example, Josefowicz is a good musician, but I don't care for her style, especially in Shosty's VC No. 1. I think she's too edgy and I don't care for her tone on violin at all. The same with Mordkovitch, which is another performance I listened to recently and found distasteful. It all comes down to what you admire most in a performance. I look for 1. a collaborative effort from the soloist/conductor (i. e. both are on the same page interpretatively), 2. a warm tone from the violinist, 3. all the technical demands of the concerto to be met, and 4. both the soloist's and conductor's attention to the subtleties and details of the music.

Then you're obviously not a fan of Gould/Berstein's version of Brahms piano concerto.

Here's an interesting article on concerto conducting...

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/10/arts/music-view-special-gift-of-concerto-conducting.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 11:21:08 AM
Quote from: PaulR on July 10, 2012, 11:10:43 AM
It seems to me that Masur takes this up as a typical violin concerto, with bursts of energy when the Khachatryan isn't doing much, but, as I said in the WAYLT thread, I find this to be more of a symphonic concerto than usual in how it is constructed, and Masur makes too much of an effort to lo let Khachatryan shine that hinders the performance.

I completely disagree. The violin is the voice in this music. It, in my opinion, is supposed to lead the way. Doesn't matter how it's structured, it's still a concerto. The same applies to all of Shosty's concerti. You or I don't know what Masur truly thinks about this work, but his interpretation is to follow Khachatryan who guides the music forward. They're both on the same page and I find this an admirable quality and for this reason it easily is a top choice for me.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 11:23:14 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 10, 2012, 11:15:40 AM
Then you're obviously not a fan of Gould/Berstein's version of Brahms piano concerto.

Here's an interesting article on concerto conducting...

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/10/arts/music-view-special-gift-of-concerto-conducting.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Not sure what this has to do with Shostakovich's Violin Concerto Nos. 1 & 2, but I haven't heard and don't want to hear the Gould/Bernstein performance of Brahms' Piano Concerto No. 1.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 10, 2012, 11:48:39 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 11:23:14 AM
Not sure what this has to do with Shostakovich's Violin Concerto Nos. 1 & 2, but I haven't heard and don't want to hear the Gould/Bernstein performance of Brahms' Piano Concerto No. 1.

The first part was a joke that must have not been understood.

And the link is an interesting article on concerto conducting, which you and PaulR have filled a page here discussing, it doesn't directly reference DSCH's VCs, but it focuses on areas of soloist/conductor.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2012, 11:59:02 AM
I actually think Masur does very well accompanying the concerti, whether live (he was here in Boston's Symphony Hall) or on the disc with Khatchatryan.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on July 10, 2012, 12:04:32 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 10, 2012, 11:59:02 AM
I actually think Masur does very well accompanying the concerti, whether live (he was here in Boston's Symphony Hall) or on the disc with Khatchatryan.
I don't want to make it seem that I think he doesn't, it  was merely my own thinking of what the first VC is, and some minor quibbles about the interpretation. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 12:10:11 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 10, 2012, 11:48:39 AM
The first part was a joke that must have not been understood.

And the link is an interesting article on concerto conducting, which you and PaulR have filled a page here discussing, it doesn't directly reference DSCH's VCs, but it focuses on areas of soloist/conductor.

I didn't know you were joking and didn't understand or get the joke.

Edit: A smiley face (:)) should always be at the end of a joke, otherwise, how am I or anyone else to know you're joking?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 12:10:58 PM
Quote from: PaulR on July 10, 2012, 12:04:32 PM
I don't want to make it seem that I think he doesn't, it  was merely my own thinking of what the first VC is, and some minor quibbles about the interpretation.

All is well, Paul. No worries. We all like and admire different things in performances. A difference of opinion makes the world turn.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 03:44:16 PM
I'm own my second listen to Lisa Batishvili's performance of Shostakovich's Violin Concerto No. 1 and I'm still highly impressed with her playing and the accompaniment from Salonen. This is a performance worth getting to know.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on July 11, 2012, 02:24:44 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 10:15:40 AMEverybody talks about how great Oistrakh's performance was and honestly I don't think much of it. I'm beginning to dislike Vengerov's approach altogether to the violin. I haven't heard Hope/M. Shostakovich yet, but I didn't like Hope's recording of Berg/Britten concerti. His tone just isn't there. Khachatryan is one of my favorites. Outstanding performance IMHO. Josefowicz/Oramo was awful. I'm beginning to dislike Mullova/Previn. Steinbacher/Nelsons, aside from the Khachatryan/Masur, is another top choice of mine. I also just listened to Batiashvili/Salonen and was incredibly impressed with it. I'll be listening to this one a lot as well.

This is interesting, thanks. I agree about Oistrakh and Vengerov - Oistrakh has a lot of cred but I've never heard him really dig into the music. Vengerov's vibrato and timbre nauseate me - I don't know how anyone else can stand it! The little I've heard of Mullova I didn't like either - too hard-toned and insensitive. I don't know if you have the Sitkovetsky set of Shost and Prok violin concertos - he's okay but too reticent and lacklustre. I do appreciate that he's not trying to overpower the music, but he goes too far the other way.

So I think I will have to look into Khachatryan, Steinbacher, and Batiashvili.

*Lopes off to Amazon.*
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2012, 06:52:21 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 11, 2012, 02:24:44 AM
This is interesting, thanks. I agree about Oistrakh and Vengerov - Oistrakh has a lot of cred but I've never heard him really dig into the music. Vengerov's vibrato and timbre nauseate me - I don't know how anyone else can stand it! The little I've heard of Mullova I didn't like either - too hard-toned and insensitive. I don't know if you have the Sitkovetsky set of Shost and Prok violin concertos - he's okay but too reticent and lacklustre. I do appreciate that he's not trying to overpower the music, but he goes too far the other way.

So I think I will have to look into Khachatryan, Steinbacher, and Batiashvili.

*Lopes off to Amazon.*

I have a recording of Sitkovetsky performing Bartok's VCs and I didn't enjoy his playing at all. I've pretty avoided anything recorded by him ever since. Try out Khachatryan, Steinbacher, and Batiashvili. I'm sure you'll enjoy at least one of these performances.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2012, 07:16:56 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 10, 2012, 07:56:59 PM
Very good ear. Shostakovich's 2nd and 3rd are generally regarded as his weakest symphonies. They're almost nothing in the world but propaganda works. Like of today's radio jingle for example. They're trying to sell something [....]

As to the statement that "Shostakovich's 2nd and 3rd are [...] almost nothing in the world but propaganda works":  The obvious fact about them is that they conclude with a chorus singing propagandic texts.

Does the fact that a symphony contains an element of propaganda mean that it's "nothing in the world but propaganda works"?  Obviously not.  It could be argued that Schiller's "Ode to Joy" is pantheistic, warm-&-fuzzy claptrap propaganda.  (It would be a hostile view of the matter, but it can be argued;  one might alternatively view the poem as not particularly good poetry, and yet regard the content of the poem with some tolerance.)  Certainly the setting of the poem is the driver for the musical structure of the fourth movement.  In framing that argument, is one justified in detracting the entire Op.125 as "almost nothing in the world but propaganda works"? Is that a rhetorical question, or what?

Another obvious fact about the two symphonies is that they were commissions as 'public works', and (to be sure) the final choral fooferaw was in both cases the raison d'être for the commission.  Does the fact of the public commission invalidate the entire artistic endeavor?

I do not think it can.  The question of artistic worth has to rest in the resulting work, not in the source of a commission.  There are great works of art which have been commissioned for The Public; and there is piffle which has been thus commissioned.

Of course, it is possible to take distaste for the Communist propaganda texts as a driver for prejudice against the entire piece.  That is neither subtle, nor even fair.

There is the fact that the composer himself had his son promise that he would never conduct those works.  (A promise which Maksim Dmitriyevich has obviously broken, in the interests of keeping deeper artistic faith with his dad.)  On the face of it, this appears like the composer "disowning" the musical objects.  I think the sounder argument is, that long experience had embittered him to the Party, that this experience made all of his (necessary, to at least some reasonable degree) apparent compromises over the years loathsome to him.  He may well have been sharply critical, at that later date, of his apparent naïveté in 'playing along' in that earlier epoch;  and if I remember the timing correctly, at the time of that conversation with his son, he may well have rued his apparent 'cave-in' in the 60s, when he at last actually joined the Party.

For my ears personally, the flaws of the choral texts (mediocrity of both style and content . . . third-pressing Mayakovsky, if you like) are of less import than the panache of the choral writing.  (I could even consider the texts of a certain type of interest, as historical artifacts, but set that aside at present.) There is a musical élan in the execution of both these symphonies which, on its own merit, I find worthwhile.

Even if we allowed (for argument's sake) that the lousy texts meant that the choral finales of both symphonies are therefore somehow worthless – how could the instrumental portion of the works be propagandic?  They're just notes, in a real sense.  If we excised the choral finale, and played the rest of the Second Symphony to a 'blind' audience, and told them the name of the piece was Mercury, the Winged Messenger – how many in the group would cry, "No! This is no heavenly body – it is The Spectre of Communism!" –?

The other aspect of the Second and Third Symphonies which my ears treasure are, they are an important part of the limited view we have of the precocious talent to which Shostakovich gave rein before the necessity of self-policing came into force, after the notorious Pravda editorial.

In my opinion (spelled out, no acronym), if anyone tosses these symphonies into the dustbin just by virtue of their compromised origins, he is certainly acting within his own æsthetic rights, but he's also losing out on some of the century's genuinely fascinating (and exhilarating) music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on July 11, 2012, 07:33:01 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2012, 07:16:56 AM

There is the fact that the composer himself had his son promise that he would never conduct those works.  (A promise which Maksim Dmitriyevich has obviously broken, in the interests of keeping deeper artistic faith with his dad.)  On the face of it, this appears like the composer "disowning" the musical objects.  I think the sounder argument is, that long experience had embittered him to the Party, that this experience made all of his (necessary, to at least some reasonable degree) apparent compromises over the years loathsome to him.  He may well have been sharply critical, at that later date, of his apparent naïveté in 'playing along' in that earlier epoch;  and if I remember the timing correctly, at the time of that conversation with his son, he may well have rued his apparent 'cave-in' in the 60s, when he at last actually joined the Party.


The other aspect of the Second and Third Symphonies which my ears treasure are, they are an important part of the limited view we have of the precocious talent to which Shostakovich gave rein before the necessity of self-policing came into force, after the notorious Pravda editorial.


I've isolated those two paragraphs to give context to my own speculation.
Perhaps DSCH's apparent dislike was not a musical judgment, but based on psychological/personal circumstance--they may have been too-painful reminders of what he might have otherwise done, and reminders of an era when musical experimentation was not only tolerated, but to some degree encouraged.  And DSCH might have also been reflecting on what was then his political naivete, in willingly providing music for the regime.  (Though aren't there stories of DSCH making fun of the texts and of the scenario for The Bolt?)

Myself, I'm not too enamored of the Second and Third--musically they are not my cup of tea (or, since this is a Russian context, my samovar of tea).    Seemingly disjointed,  too modernistic, etc.    Interesting documents more than interesting music, so to speak.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2012, 07:36:10 AM
Fine post, Jeffrey; and I certainly respect the "interesting, but not my bag" viewpoint.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2012, 08:08:02 AM
Karl, you made a good post, but it doesn't change my view of the works too much. I understand you're trying to defend music you like which there's nothing wrong with that. Russia knew Shostakovich was a prodigious talent or else his Symphony No. 1 wouldn't have been so highly acclaimed. That is a fine symphony no question about it. I just feel the 2nd and 3rd fall short musically. The 2nd is a better work IMHO than the 3rd because I can get onboard with the wild orchestration and general manic musical feel that permeates much of the first half of the symphony. I dig that, but when compared with what came after these symphonies I'm left scratching my head. We could take these two symphonies on their own merits perhaps, but even when doing that I feel a bit letdown. Shostakovich wrote a good bit of propaganda music -- some of it good, some of it horrible. I would say the 2nd and the 3rd fall somewhere between. They're not great works, but they're not necessarily terrible either. Anyway, that's my two cents.
Title: Re: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2012, 08:18:50 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 11, 2012, 08:08:02 AM
Karl, you made a good post, but it doesn't change my view of the works too much. I understand you're trying to defend music you like which there's nothing wrong with that.

Thanks, John. I don't believe that it was so much a matter of defending music I like (on the whole, these two early symphonies do not break into my 30 Favorite Shostakovich Pieces list), as (viz. my early indication in the WAYLT thread) inviting a richer understanding of the pieces. I certainly entertained no dream of convincing you to like them better (is such an external process of conviction even possible?)

So, I am content that my post is reasonably good ; )
Title: Re: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2012, 08:27:35 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2012, 08:18:50 AM
Thanks, John. I don't believe that it was so much a matter of defending music I like (on the whole, these two early symphonies do not break into my 30 Favorite Shostakovich Pieces list), as (viz. my early indication in the WAYLT thread) inviting a richer understanding of the pieces. I certainly entertained no dream of convincing you to like them better (is such an external process of conviction even possible?)

So, I am content that my post is reasonably good ; )

Well, it's always a pleasure to read people's thoughts about Shostakovich and you articulated yourself very well. I do wish, however, that people would try and explore more lesser-known Shostakovich music. I mean there are many folks I've spoken with that haven't even heard The Golden Age yet. I need to spin the 2nd and 3rd again and re-evaluate my opinion on them. That's one thing I enjoy about you Karl. You always end making me question my own opinion. :D And in most cases, I wind up being glad I paid the particular works in question a revisit.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2012, 08:29:50 AM
New Babylon ... someday, I'm going to listen to it!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2012, 08:34:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2012, 08:29:50 AM
New Babylon ... someday, I'm going to listen to it!

New Babylon is cool, Karl. You'll enjoy it I think. I don't own the new recording of it on Naxos. I own the older James Judd recording.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on July 11, 2012, 09:27:07 AM
Great post on the 2nd and 3rd, Karl. I haven't listened to them too much, but from what I recall, I didn't find them bad at all, just not of the quality that the others are. Another obvious example of a propaganda piece would be Alexander Nevsky - while it isn't maybe on the same level as Violin Sonata no. 1, or much of the piano music, it's certainly not bad music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: not edward on July 11, 2012, 09:29:11 AM
Personal view: I certainly don't write off the 2nd and 3rd; there are certainly many striking moments in both even if they pale in comparison to the 4th. I'd be interested to know why DSCH told his son that he should not conduct these two--whether it related to the sung texts, perceived musical failings, both, or other things.

I do wonder whether DSCH may have had a particularly negative view of these two symphonies as a result of comparing them to Gavriil Popov's 1st symphony, the first version of which was written around the same time as Shostakovich's 3rd. This symphony shares similar concerns with the instrumental movements of DSCH 2 and 3, but IMO is far more ambitious and effective--and I think it'd be easy to make a case that the massive increase in confidence and musical ambition seen in the 4th (as well as the "Mahlerian" rhetoric in that work) comes from having seen Popov's symphony as pointing out key elements of the way forward that DSCH seems to have been casting about for in the 2nd and 3rd.

Of course, this way forward didn't last long, for either DSCH (who adapted to the changed circumstances) or Popov (who didn't).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2012, 12:03:47 PM
And now it's time for a direct question to Karl: have you heard The Golden Age yet? If not, this is the recording to get:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000IY068O.01.L.jpg)

There are two other performances on CD: one of them with Rozhdestvensky conducting the Royal Stockholm Philharmonic and the other with Yuri Simonov conducting the Bolshoi Orchestra, which I haven't heard.

P.S. Sorry if this question is redundant. I wasn't sure if I asked you yet.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2012, 12:12:15 PM
I still have not, yet.  I mean, not most of it . . . two numbers from it, I think.

That sort of direct question I do not mind; it's relevant
: )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2012, 12:15:42 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2012, 12:12:15 PM
I still have not, yet.  I mean, not most of it . . . two numbers from it, I think.

That sort of direct question I do not mind; it's relevant
: )

Please make time for it, Karl. You'll really enjoy it. Maybe listen to it over the weekend. Also please listen to Schnittke's Peer Gynt. These two ballets make a nice contrast. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on July 11, 2012, 05:55:42 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2012, 07:16:56 AMAnother obvious fact about the two symphonies is that they were commissions as 'public works', and (to be sure) the final choral fooferaw was in both cases the raison d'être for the commission.  Does the fact of the public commission invalidate the entire artistic endeavor?
...
For my ears personally, the flaws of the choral texts (mediocrity of both style and content . . . third-pressing Mayakovsky, if you like) are of less import than the panache of the choral writing.  (I could even consider the texts of a certain type of interest, as historical artifacts, but set that aside at present.) There is a musical élan in the execution of both these symphonies which, on its own merit, I find worthwhile.
...
The other aspect of the Second and Third Symphonies which my ears treasure are, they are an important part of the limited view we have of the precocious talent to which Shostakovich gave rein before the necessity of self-policing came into force, after the notorious Pravda editorial.

Regarding the commissions, as I recall from the Wilson book, one of the remarkable things about the 3rd is that it was NOT commissioned but written "on spec". In late 20s Russia it was still possible for a young Shostakovich to buy into the potential of communism for positive social change.

Musically the two symphonies contain some of the most avant garde stuff he ever wrote. The choral finales aren't great but I don't think they invalidate what comes before. The real problem for me with these works is that they don't hang together structurally. If Shosty wasn't such a giant, I could almost imagine someone taking the best bits of 2 and 3 and rearranging them into a "proper" symphonic work (or a ballet?).


Quote from: Mirror Image on July 11, 2012, 06:52:21 AMI have a recording of Sitkovetsky performing Bartok's VCs and I didn't enjoy his playing at all. I've pretty avoided anything recorded by him ever since. Try out Khachatryan, Steinbacher, and Batiashvili. I'm sure you'll enjoy at least one of these performances.

Also added Kaler/Wit and Mordkovitch/Jarvi to this list. Can you recall exactly what you disliked about the Mordkovitch?


Quote from: North Star on July 11, 2012, 09:27:07 AMAnother obvious example of a propaganda piece would be Alexander Nevsky
I think you'll find yourself in a small minority with that opinion! Nevsky is more an example of a work which wasn't troubled too much by the censors because it was on a patriotic subject.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2012, 06:25:06 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 11, 2012, 05:55:42 PMAlso added Kaler/Wit and Mordkovitch/Jarvi to this list. Can you recall exactly what you disliked about the Mordkovitch?

I really disliked Mordkovitch's tone and just her interpretation. She ruined the Passacaglia movement with her rough-and-ready approach to violin. Reminds of me of why I dislike Vengerov.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on July 12, 2012, 03:40:53 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 11, 2012, 05:55:42 PMI think you'll find yourself in a small minority with that opinion! Nevsky is more an example of a work which wasn't troubled too much by the censors because it was on a patriotic subject.

But how does this differ from Shosty's 2nd and 3rd?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 12, 2012, 03:53:08 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 11, 2012, 05:55:42 PM
Regarding the commissions, as I recall from the Wilson book, one of the remarkable things about the 3rd is that it was NOT commissioned but written "on spec". In late 20s Russia it was still possible for a young Shostakovich to buy into the potential of communism for positive social change.

Thanks for reminding me to go back to sources! Meanwhile . . . his having written it "on spec" is a point which, of itself, does not indicate what the composer may or may not "buy into";  I seem to remember it being a matter of plying the network, so to say.  Need to scare up the Fay!

Quote from: eyeresistMusically the two symphonies contain some of the most avant garde stuff he ever wrote. The choral finales aren't great but I don't think they invalidate what comes before. The real problem for me with these works is that they don't hang together structurally. If Shosty wasn't such a giant, I could almost imagine someone taking the best bits of 2 and 3 and rearranging them into a "proper" symphonic work (or a ballet?).

I should agree that they don't hang together structurally (and that the Fourth, for all its Grandiosomania, is held together soundly by marvelous, steely motivic cables running through, and therefore represents a marvelous leap forward) . . . but (a) in their scale, I don't find that any grave fault, and (b) as formal experiments, again, I find them a fascinating snapshot of the composer at the time — and, for all their musical profligacy, I find them a show of rare musical strength.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on July 12, 2012, 05:35:04 PM
Quote from: North Star on July 12, 2012, 03:40:53 AMBut how does this differ from Shosty's 2nd and 3rd?

Wha...?

2 and 3 supposedly symbolise the revolutionary struggle through music, and conclude with texts praising the Bolshevik revolution.
Nevsky tells the exciting story of a Russian hero of medieval times. No point trying to conflate these just to try to make a point.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on July 12, 2012, 06:42:18 PM
Finished the Decca box of song cycles this morning. 
[asin]B000FG4KBY[/asin]
I found the orchestral cycles superior to the piano cycles, although I think they should have gone with someone other than DFD to sing the Captain Lebyadkin songs (or maybe DSCH wanted something that abrasive and hateful sounding....)
Musically, they sound rather like you would expect DSCH to sound, with vocal soloist added.....Since it's my first listen to most of the songs, and not just to the performances, I'd rather not say too much more than that.  (Two of the cycles, conducted by Haitink with the Concertgebouw and different singers, are included in the Haitink set of the symphonies. )  The performances in this set feature N. Jarvi conducting the Gothenburg SO.   Both the orchestral and piano versions of the Michelangelo songs are included.  On the piano songs,  Vladimir Ashkenazy is on duty at the keyboard.
It's a 5 CD set;  the fourth and fifth CDs are taken up by Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk in the Chung/Bastille Opera recording.  I found myself more interested and more emotionally involved by the Rostropovich recording on EMI.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on July 12, 2012, 09:17:46 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 12, 2012, 06:42:18 PMIt's a 5 CD set;  the fourth and fifth CDs are taken up by Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk in the Chung/Bastille Opera recording.  I found myself more interested and more emotionally involved by the Rostropovich recording on EMI.
Perhaps the high estimation of the Rostro is yet another example of reality not matching received wisdom?

I already have the Chung recording, so now there is the pained question of duplication to consider....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on July 13, 2012, 08:23:56 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 12, 2012, 09:17:46 PM
Perhaps the high estimation of the Rostro is yet another example of reality not matching received wisdom?

I already have the Chung recording, so now there is the pained question of duplication to consider....

No, no, I like the Rostropovich better! 
As for this box, since you already have 40% of it--I'd suggest looking for the first two CDs as individual items, and alternate versions of the songs with piano--although the 7 Romances on Poems of A. Blok (which has a vocalist and chamber ensemble) has a good performance on that CD.   It's the DFD that's the main stumbling block.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 13, 2012, 08:29:11 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 12, 2012, 09:17:46 PM
Perhaps the high estimation of the Rostro is yet another example of reality not matching received wisdom?

I already have the Chung recording, so now there is the pained question of duplication to consider....

Jeffrey has already interposed . . . but Slava is the classic account.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 13, 2012, 08:23:56 AM
. . .  It's the DFD that's the main stumbling block.

Yes . . . I had that disc already as a Decca cut-out via BRO, so I knew that all the rest would be uphill : )

I don't think DF-D would have committed that offense upon the Capt. Lebyadkin Verses if he had actually read the Dostoyevsky.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 13, 2012, 08:30:46 AM
The Blok Romances for soprano and piano trio are obligatory Shostakovich! Top-shelf music plus a Silver Age Russian poet.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on July 13, 2012, 09:00:56 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 13, 2012, 08:29:11 AM

I don't think DF-D would have committed that offense upon the Capt. Lebyadkin Verses if he had actually read the Dostoyevsky.

I've read most of the rest of Fyodor, but never really liked him, and finally gave up after a couple of chapters into The Possessed (or the Demons, or whatever the correct translation of the title is....I've seen several different renditions).  The Idiot is the only one I actually liked,and I had to read it all the way through before I realized I liked it.   It was The Gamblers on which DSCH made the beginnings of an opera, wasn't it?

But in regards to the Lebyadkin poems,  the little I've read suggests that a harsh, blustery approach might well have been in character for the Captain, so perhaps that's what DFD was trying to do.

Among my purchases yesterday in the used LP/CD store was Slatkin's account of DSCH 4, which I though was good, but not good enough to replace any of my current favorites (Gergiev, Janssons)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on July 15, 2012, 05:44:17 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 13, 2012, 08:23:56 AMNo, no, I like the Rostropovich better! 
As for this box, since you already have 40% of it--I'd suggest looking for the first two CDs as individual items, and alternate versions of the songs with piano--although the 7 Romances on Poems of A. Blok (which has a vocalist and chamber ensemble) has a good performance on that CD.   It's the DFD that's the main stumbling block.

Whoops, I misread  :-[

Thanks for the buying advice.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 20, 2012, 03:52:44 AM
This (http://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream/10092/5342/1/ShostakovichThesis.pdf) is four years old already, but I found it a most high-value read yesterday, when I chanced upon it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: eyeresist on July 22, 2012, 05:25:38 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 20, 2012, 03:52:44 AMThis (http://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream/10092/5342/1/ShostakovichThesis.pdf) is four years old already, but I found it a most high-value read yesterday, when I chanced upon it.

Thanks for this link, Karl! I have downloaded, and will read it when I find the time (it's 167pp.). I did "skip to the end" to see the author's verdict on Volkov - nice and sensible :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 22, 2012, 05:40:07 PM
Glad that you find it of interest, too!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 06:01:28 PM
Wonder if any of the Shostaposse here have heard this disc. I've heard Calefax Reed Quintet's Rameau disc and just recently discovered their Goldberg Variations, along with this DSCH disc of preludes and fugues (one of my favorites from DSCH) looks interesting but haven't found any samples or write ups.
Also, might be my favorite DSCH photo/cover art.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rn0KJywpL._SL500_AA500_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518-kUu%2BFmL._AA500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on July 23, 2012, 01:54:54 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 06:01:28 PM
Wonder if any of the Shostaposse here have heard this disc. I've heard Calefax Reed Quintet's Rameau disc and just recently discovered their Goldberg Variations, along with this DSCH disc of preludes and fugues (one of my favorites from DSCH) looks interesting but haven't found any samples or write ups.
Also, might be my favorite DSCH photo/cover art.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rn0KJywpL._SL500_AA500_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518-kUu%2BFmL._AA500_.jpg)

Very cool. No... have not heard that. But I'll think I'll shoot a mail off to MDG right now.  ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: The new erato on July 23, 2012, 05:22:14 AM
Just ordered this:

[asin]B0059B0BZ4[/asin]

These performances have never been issued before on CD. The performance of Shostakovich s Symphony No.10 was given on the very night that Soviet tanks invaded Czechoslovakia in a concentrated effort to halt The Prague Spring , the liberal political reforms initiated by Alexander Dubcek. The atmosphere in the Royal Albert Hall, as can be heard from the shouts of protest, was electric and very tense. It is likely that the USSR State Symphony Orchestra had not heard the news, but after the first few bars, the disruption was finally drowned out by other members of the audience and from various accounts, Svetlanov, as can be heard here, then went on to give the performance of his life. Svetlanov's widow, on hearing the test pressings of this CD, said that the performance brought tears to her eyes and the emotion of that evening came across very strongly.

According to IRR one of the most blistering accounts of no 10 ever.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on July 23, 2012, 06:36:03 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 22, 2012, 06:01:28 PM
Wonder if any of the Shostaposse here have heard this disc. I've heard Calefax Reed Quintet's Rameau disc and just recently discovered their Goldberg Variations, along with this DSCH disc of preludes and fugues (one of my favorites from DSCH) looks interesting but haven't found any samples or write ups.
Also, might be my favorite DSCH photo/cover art.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rn0KJywpL._SL500_AA500_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518-kUu%2BFmL._AA500_.jpg)
They have samples of it on iTunes, not sure what to think about it.  Judging only by the samples that they give, I think it is a mixed bag.  Some work well with the wind quintet, one example of this would be #3.  But some others (such as #2), do not work well with the scoring.  But these are my own opinions only based off of short samples.

I may investigate further in the future. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 23, 2012, 07:02:36 AM
Quote from: PaulR on July 23, 2012, 06:36:03 AM
They have samples of it on iTunes, not sure what to think about it.  Judging only by the samples that they give, I think it is a mixed bag.  Some work well with the wind quintet, one example of this would be #3.  But some others (such as #2), do not work well with the scoring.  But these are my own opinions only based off of short samples.

I may investigate further in the future.

Man, I've been so bad about locating samples lately. Thanks Paul.
And thank you for your comments. I will add my own once I listen. I have an infatuation with wind ensembles or pieces for winds so I'm anxious for hearing it
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 23, 2012, 07:09:59 AM
Greg, do you perchance know the two Scarlatti transcriptions Shostakovich did for wind ensemble?  (I should have guessed that they would be right up your street.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 23, 2012, 07:19:07 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 23, 2012, 07:09:59 AM
Greg, do you perchance know the two Scarlatti transcriptions Shostakovich did for wind ensemble?  (I should have guessed that they would be right up your street.)

Have not, Karl. But I'm intrigued, will start looking for them. Are you familiar with them?  Thanks!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on July 23, 2012, 07:22:55 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 23, 2012, 07:02:36 AM
Man, I've been so bad about locating samples lately. Thanks Paul.
And thank you for your comments. I will add my own once I listen. I have an infatuation with wind ensembles or pieces for winds so I'm anxious for hearing it
It is no problem.  I'm not great at locating samples, I basically only have 3 sources for samples--arkiv, amazon, and iTunes. 

My assessment of it is not really fair to the performance, as iTunes gives about 1M-1:30 sample size.  It is impossible to get a full, good impression using just samples.  Would be great if these magically turn up on NML......
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 23, 2012, 07:28:22 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 23, 2012, 07:19:07 AM
Have not, Karl. But I'm intrigued, will start looking for them. Are you familiar with them?  Thanks!

They are a pre-"Muddle" jeu d'esprit, Op.17: K.9 (L.413) ("Pastorale") & K.20 (L.375) ("Capriccio").

The "Pastorale" has some nice understated timpani thumps.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: John Copeland on August 03, 2012, 09:18:18 AM
Couple of months ago or so I ventured forth to Amazon and bought a set of Shostakovich symphonies on recommendation.  Not knowing too much and not having much Stravinsky, I was quickly happy with my set, Haitink with the RCO.  Yesterday, whilst gawklily browsing tunes on Youtube, there was plenty to sample of from Barshai's Shostakovich set.  In fact, the whole set is there to listen to.  So I dutifully sampled, and sampled some more.  I soon sampled myself daft with the Barshai Shostakovich, discovering it to be something better (for me) than the one I already bought, AND it was considerably less expensive.
Haaarrrumph!   :-[  :'(
I sense much more depth of understanding in what I have heard of the Barshai set, things seem much bigger and graver without being played as such.  The sound (albeit from online source and listened to through headphones from my laptop) also seems to be better.   The silly tunes Shostakovich opened some of his symphonies with are somehow more transparent.  I am uber impressed by what I have heard (Barshai) although unfortunately this will mean Haitinks little red set can sit well away for a while as I investigate and pound the table with Rudolph and the West German Radio Symphony Orchestra... :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jwinter on August 03, 2012, 09:36:03 AM
I am definitely still on the early learning curve on Shostakovich's symphonies, whichis why I seldom mention them in these parts, but I agree that I have, generally, found the Barshai to be more involving than Haitink.  I have 3 sets -- Kondrashin, Barshai, and Haitink, and both of the Russians get more play that Haitink. 

That said, I'm keeping the Haitink, because if my experience with him in other repetoire holds, he has a tendency to bring out subtleties that others sometimes miss.  The Russian conductors are more exciting and immediately interesting; I suspect that I may come to like Haitink better once I am more fully acquainted with the symphonies.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on August 03, 2012, 11:10:30 AM
Quote from: Scots John on August 03, 2012, 09:18:18 AM
Couple of months ago or so I ventured forth to Amazon and bought a set of Shostakovich symphonies on recommendation.  Not knowing too much and not having much Stravinsky, I was quickly happy with my set, Haitink with the RCO.  Yesterday, whilst gawklily browsing tunes on Youtube, there was plenty to sample of from Barshai's Shostakovich set.  In fact, the whole set is there to listen to.  So I dutifully sampled, and sampled some more.  I soon sampled myself daft with the Barshai Shostakovich, discovering it to be something better (for me) than the one I already bought, AND it was considerably less expensive.
Haaarrrumph!   :-[  :'(
I sense much more depth of understanding in what I have heard of the Barshai set, things seem much bigger and graver without being played as such.  The sound (albeit from online source and listened to through headphones from my laptop) also seems to be better.   The silly tunes Shostakovich opened some of his symphonies with are somehow more transparent.  I am uber impressed by what I have heard (Barshai) although unfortunately this will mean Haitinks little red set can sit well away for a while as I investigate and pound the table with Rudolph and the West German Radio Symphony Orchestra... :D

Do be aware that the Barshai is included as part of Brilliant's 100 CD Symphonies box--so if you have any interest at all in some of the other sets included there--it's sort of a super set of Brilliant sets, including their Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Mahler, etc--it may be worth getting that way.  (I got if as a bargain, for less than what I would have paid for the Haydn and Shostakovich cycles I was principally interested in.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Opus106 on August 04, 2012, 12:36:47 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 03, 2012, 11:10:30 AM
Do be aware that the Barshai is included as part of Brilliant's 100 CD Symphonies box--so if you have any interest at all in some of the other sets included there--it's sort of a super set of Brilliant sets, including their Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Mahler, etc--it may be worth getting that way.  (I got if as a bargain, for less than what I would have paid for the Haydn and Shostakovich cycles I was principally interested in.)

I wish they would re-release their Shostakovich Edition again.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 25, 2012, 09:11:15 AM
Man, this was buried back at the bottom of page 5. People, you are letting the side down! ; )

The birthday boy plays his own Prelude & Fugue in C, Op.87 № 1

http://www.youtube.com/v/Uuj5uzgmB5A
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 25, 2012, 10:03:39 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 25, 2012, 09:11:15 AM
Man, this was buried back at the bottom of page 5. People, you are letting the side down! ; )

The birthday boy plays his own Prelude & Fugue in C, Op.87 № 1

http://www.youtube.com/v/Uuj5uzgmB5A

Beautiful playing and composition.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 27, 2012, 01:28:02 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 25, 2012, 09:11:15 AMThe birthday boy plays his own Prelude & Fugue in C, Op.87 № 1
Not in Germany, but that's not unusual.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: The new erato on September 30, 2012, 01:03:19 AM
The 51 CS Dmitri collection is preannounced at 60 Euro (less Vat outside the EU) here:

http://www.abeillemusique.com/CD/Classique/BRIL9245/5029365924528/Brilliant-Classics/Dimitri-Chostakovitch/edition-Chostakovitch/cleart-65057.html (http://www.abeillemusique.com/CD/Classique/BRIL9245/5029365924528/Brilliant-Classics/Dimitri-Chostakovitch/edition-Chostakovitch/cleart-65057.html)

(http://www.abeillemusique.com/images/references/bril9245.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 30, 2012, 06:41:33 AM
Quote from: The new erato on September 30, 2012, 01:03:19 AM
The 51 CS Dmitri collection is preannounced at 60 Euro (less Vat outside the EU) here:

http://www.abeillemusique.com/CD/Classique/BRIL9245/5029365924528/Brilliant-Classics/Dimitri-Chostakovitch/edition-Chostakovitch/cleart-65057.html (http://www.abeillemusique.com/CD/Classique/BRIL9245/5029365924528/Brilliant-Classics/Dimitri-Chostakovitch/edition-Chostakovitch/cleart-65057.html)

(http://www.abeillemusique.com/images/references/bril9245.jpg)

If I didn't own so much of that box set already, I would definitely pick it up, but for somebody who really is new to Shostakovich and has loved what they heard so far, this set would be a great deal.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2012, 08:46:32 PM
Bought these two 7th recordings yesterday:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003ARIA7U.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B009NEP3II.01.L.jpg)

I had the buy the Nelsons as an import as it's not available in the US for some f***** up reason. The 7th is a symphony that I have only recently, in the past three/four months, come to fully appreciate. A lot of it I owe to Bernstein's classic CSO performance on DG. I've never quite warmed up to this symphony until I listened to Bernstein's performance several times. Now, I can tackle other performances with no problem. I liked Masur's on Teldec with the NY Philharmonic a lot. Haitink's was a pretty strong account on Decca. Never liked Jansons or Ashkenazy recordings of Shostakovich. Anyway, I eagerly await these two newer recordings of the 7th
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on November 24, 2012, 04:09:24 PM
For the third time, I saw the Violin Concerto #1 in A Minor op. 77 live.  This time with the NYPO under Andrey Boreyko conducting with Frank Peter Zimmerman as the soloist.  It was really well done, I thought.  Perhaps the best experience I have had with that piece in a live setting.

One thing I want to mention about the piece, the tutti pizzicato with the timpani is such a cool effect and fits that piece very well.  I've known it was there, but was the first time I heard it and thought it was a wonderful moment.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 24, 2012, 06:15:26 PM
Quote from: PaulR on November 24, 2012, 04:09:24 PM
For the third time, I saw the Violin Concerto #1 in A Minor op. 77 live.  This time with the NYPO under Andrey Boreyko conducting with Frank Peter Zimmerman as the soloist.  It was really well done, I thought.  Perhaps the best experience I have had with that piece in a live setting.

One thing I want to mention about the piece, the tutti pizzicato with the timpani is such a cool effect and fits that piece very well.  I've known it was there, but was the first time I heard it and thought it was a wonderful moment.

Nice, Paul! I bet it was a great performance. Boreyko is becoming quite the Shostakovian having recorded Symphonies Nos. 4, 9, & 15 already. Zimmerman is also an awesome violinist. I'm jealous! How was the Passacaglia?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on November 24, 2012, 06:50:01 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 24, 2012, 06:15:26 PM
Nice, Paul! I bet it was a great performance. Boreyko is becoming quite the Shostakovian having recorded Symphonies Nos. 4, 9, & 15 already. Zimmerman is also an awesome violinist. I'm jealous! How was the Passacaglia?
Extremely well done, but a little too fast of a tempo for my taste. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 25, 2012, 06:35:39 AM
Quote from: PaulR on November 24, 2012, 06:50:01 PM
Extremely well done, but a little too fast of a tempo for my taste.

Yeah, I like a slower tempo in the Passacaglia.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on November 25, 2012, 01:55:18 PM
Quote from: PaulR on November 24, 2012, 04:09:24 PM
For the third time, I saw the Violin Concerto #1 in A Minor op. 77 live.  This time with the NYPO under Andrey Boreyko conducting with Frank Peter Zimmerman as the soloist.  It was really well done, I thought.  Perhaps the best experience I have had with that piece in a live setting.

One thing I want to mention about the piece, the tutti pizzicato with the timpani is such a cool effect and fits that piece very well.  I've known it was there, but was the first time I heard it and thought it was a wonderful moment.

I was at that performance, too, and thought it was excellent. Zimmermann took a few moments to warm up, and I agree that the Passacaglia was just a bit too fast, but overall it was an excellent performance. Boreyko did a beautiful job with the orchestra, too, and kept it from overpowering the solo part.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 27, 2012, 05:02:26 PM
Does anyone know Shostakovich's opinion of Schnittke? I can't seem to find anything online where Shostakovich talks about Schnittke. Thanks.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 28, 2012, 05:00:27 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 27, 2012, 05:02:26 PM
Does anyone know Shostakovich's opinion of Schnittke? I can't seem to find anything online where Shostakovich talks about Schnittke. Thanks.

I know of none. I am doubtful that he expressed any; he was, as you know, tight-lipped as a rule.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 28, 2012, 08:41:59 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 28, 2012, 05:00:27 AM
I know of none. I am doubtful that he expressed any; he was, as you know, tight-lipped as a rule.

Yes, I suppose expressing a positive opinion of Schnittke could get him into some trouble with the Soviet authorities. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 11, 2012, 03:39:54 PM
I've discovered something rather interesting today: Shostakovich makes a quotation from Bartok's The Wooden Prince in opening of the first movement of his famous Symphony No. 5. The movement from Bartok's The Wooden Prince I'm referring to is the Fourth Dance. Obviously, Shostakvoich resolved it in a completely different way, but it's still very similar.

Let's see what I can dig up for comparison:

http://www.youtube.com/v/QLyOg6xqEXU

Listen around the 7:54 mark. Again, Shostakovich resolves this motif in a completely different way.

Shostakovich's famous 5th:

http://www.youtube.com/v/hFJvUwl8lcw

I wonder if Shostakovich was a fan of Bartok's music? Anybody? Maybe I'm just clutching at straws here. They just happen to use similar musical phrasings, but that comparison ends there.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on December 11, 2012, 04:12:57 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 11, 2012, 03:39:54 PM
I've discovered something rather interesting today: Shostakovich makes a quotation from Bartok's The Wooden Prince in opening of the first movement of his famous Symphony No. 5. The movement from Bartok's The Wooden Prince I'm referring to is the Fourth Dance. Obviously, Shostakvoich resolved it in a completely different way, but it's still very similar.

I wonder if Shostakovich was a fan of Bartok's music? Anybody? Maybe I'm just clutching at straws here. They just happen to use similar musical phrasings, but that comparison ends there.

John, I come across this scenario several times over my course of music listening.  Whenever I try and bring it up, it inevitably gets shot down, or not commented on.  Perhaps, it is a situation where "I'm clutching at straws".

I tried to pick out the comparison in your case, and I could not catch it.   :(  I will try again later on though.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 11, 2012, 04:47:20 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 11, 2012, 04:12:57 PM
John, I come across this scenario several times over my course of music listening.  Whenever I try and bring it up, it inevitably gets shot down, or not commented on.  Perhaps, it is a situation where "I'm clutching at straws".

I tried to pick out the comparison in your case, and I could not catch it.   :(  I will try again later on though.

Perhaps comparison was the wrong word to use. Right at the start of Shostakovich's Symphony No. 5 is similar to a musical passage in this Bartok's The Wooden Prince. As I mentioned, listen to the Bartok video at the 7:54 mark and then listen to the very beginning of Shostakovich's 5th, which I also posted here. There are similar musical patterns used but both composers obviously resolve them in completely different ways. I'm just inquiring to see if by chance Shostakovich picked up on this little motif and incorporated it into the first movement of his 5th? The way Bartok used the motif was quite subdued and he basically repeated it over and over again whereas Shostakovich took part of it and did something different with the idea.

But there are a lot of composers who have done this kind of thing, I don't know why I've made such a big deal about it. It's just an observation more than anything.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on December 11, 2012, 04:49:10 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 11, 2012, 04:47:20 PM
Perhaps comparison was the wrong word to use. Right at the start of Shostakovich's Symphony No. 5 is similar to a musical passage in this Bartok's The Wooden Prince. As I mentioned, listen to the Bartok video at the 7:54 mark and then listen to the very beginning of Shostakovich's 5th, which I also posted here. There are similar musical patterns used but both composers obviously resolve them in completely different ways. I'm just inquiring to see if by chance Shostakovich picked up on this little motif and incorporated it into the first movement of his 5th? The way Bartok used the motif was quite subdued and he basically repeated it over and over again whereas Shostakovich took part of it and did something different with the idea.
So.. this would be like the Leningrad & Intermezzo interrotto in reverse?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 11, 2012, 04:50:52 PM
Quote from: North Star on December 11, 2012, 04:49:10 PM
So.. this would be like the Leningrad & Intermezzo interrotto in reverse?

I don't know, Karlo. Did you hear the phrase I'm talking about?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on December 11, 2012, 04:52:21 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 11, 2012, 04:50:52 PM
I don't know, Karlo. Did you hear the phrase I'm talking about?
No, I'll check it in the morning.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on December 11, 2012, 05:46:42 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 11, 2012, 04:47:20 PM
But there are a lot of composers who have done this kind of thing, I don't know why I've made such a big deal about it. It's just an observation more than anything.

I'm inclined to chalk it up to coincidence. When I was a teenager and just joined GMG I would post all sorts of stuff accusing composers of outright theft and everyone sort of laughed at me. Great ideas come to people separately sometimes, I guess.

But there are still things that make me wonder...

Compare 1:32/1:44 here

http://www.youtube.com/v/vsy5ec40cNY

to 00:32 here

http://www.youtube.com/v/UskC4VILUeg


or

0:08

http://www.youtube.com/v/5O2VHdVnnps

to this famous horn call

http://www.youtube.com/v/DB_lKSNwZZM
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 11, 2012, 05:57:46 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 11, 2012, 05:46:42 PM
I'm inclined to chalk it up to coincidence. When I was a teenager and just joined GMG I would post all sorts of stuff accusing composers of outright theft and everyone sort of laughed at me. Great ideas come to people separately sometimes, I guess.

I didn't accuse anyone of theft, not saying you did such a thing towards me, and I think it's like you said just a coincidence. Shostakovich certainly did a lot more with the idea and it became one of the most recognized themes of the 20th Century. This little Bartok phrase wasn't a big tune and I certainly don't hear it being treated as one. In The Wooden Prince, it's merely a musical means to get to a greater idea, whereas with Shostakovich this little phrase yielded a much more substantial idea.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on December 11, 2012, 05:58:52 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 11, 2012, 05:46:42 PM
I'm inclined to chalk it up to coincidence. When I was a teenager and just joined GMG I would post all sorts of stuff accusing composers of outright theft and everyone sort of laughed at me. Great ideas come to people separately sometimes, I guess.


I've learned that, unless you have a Masters degree in Musicology or are a 'so called' expert in Classical Music, bringing up musical themes/ideas that bear similarities (unless it's already been written about), it's better to not even mention it.

They'll just say 'no, you are wrong'.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 11, 2012, 06:07:32 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 11, 2012, 05:58:52 PM
I've learned that, unless you have a Masters degree in Musicology or are a 'so called' expert in Classical Music, bringing up musical themes/ideas that bear similarities (unless it's already been written about), it's better to not even mention it.

They'll just say 'no, you are wrong'.

It doesn't really matter to me what someone who has a masters degree in musicology says to me about this, I hear strong similarities in the usage of this little motif, but as I said already, Bartok repeats the phrase over and over again whereas Shostakovich resolves it to something completely different. Shostakovich merely uses a fragment from it and it had more of a ballsy sound to it because of the way he used it, but, like Brian, said it's merely coincidental and nobody stole anything from each other. I was just curious if Shostakovich was familiar or admired Bartok's music?

By the way, if I wanted a musical analysis on this I would just call up my uncle who's a retired composer who lives in Chicago. He holds a masters in music composition. He mainly works as a copyist now.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: not edward on December 11, 2012, 06:17:12 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 28, 2012, 08:41:59 AM
Yes, I suppose expressing a positive opinion of Schnittke could get him into some trouble with the Soviet authorities. :)
I don't think Shostakovich was ever close to Schnittke: apparently--to paraphrase Ivashkin on the subject--they did spend some time together at a near-compulsory holiday retreat organized by Khrennikov in the '60s; neither spoke much, Schnittke being too overawed and Shostakovich disinclined to say anything to anyone. I think Schnittke's musical closeness to Shostakovich (at least after the mid-'60s) has often been overstated: I hear his musical language as more coming from Mahler, Berg, B. A. Zimmermann and even late Nono than from DSCH (Mahler and Berg were of course key influences on both composers).

Shostakovich certainly publicly praised the music of two of the other prominent figures of Schnittke's generation--however, both Denisov and Gubaidulina were students of his, and DSCH seems to have taken his responsibility to his students seriously (I'm not aware of what, if any, opinions of these composers DSCH is supposed to have expressed privately*). I'm inclined to take his praise for Denisov seriously if only because I think the last movement of the 14th symphony refers to--without directly quoting--the last movement of the younger composer's cantata The Sun of the Incas.


*It'd be interesting to collect some of DSCH's private comments from sources like Richter's conversation books, since those I've seen tend to suggest a man with considerably more wide-ranging tastes than his comparatively conservative musical language might lead one to expect: if I remember correctly he expressed clear interest (not uncritical, it has to be said) in Xenakis and the earlier works of Stockhausen and Boulez.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 11, 2012, 06:21:29 PM
Quote from: edward on December 11, 2012, 06:17:12 PM
I don't think Shostakovich was ever close to Schnittke: apparently--to paraphrase Ivashkin on the subject--they did spend some time together at a near-compulsory holiday retreat organized by Khrennikov in the '60s; neither spoke much, Schnittke being too overawed and Shostakovich disinclined to say anything to anyone. I think Schnittke's musical closeness to Shostakovich (at least after the mid-'60s) has often been overstated: I hear his musical language as more coming from Mahler, Berg, B. A. Zimmermann and even late Nono than from DSCH (Mahler and Berg were of course key influences on both composers).

Shostakovich certainly publicly praised the music of two of the other prominent figures of Schnittke's generation--however, both Denisov and Gubaidulina were students of his, and DSCH seems to have taken his responsibility to his students seriously (I'm not aware of what, if any, opinions of these composers DSCH is supposed to have expressed privately*). I'm inclined to take his praise for Denisov seriously if only because I think the last movement of the 14th symphony refers to--without directly quoting--the last movement of the younger composer's cantata The Sun of the Incas.


*It'd be interesting to collect some of DSCH's private comments from sources like Richter's conversation books, since those I've seen tend to suggest a man with considerably more wide-ranging tastes than his comparatively conservative musical language might lead one to expect: if I remember correctly he expressed clear interest (not uncritical, it has to be said) in Xenakis and the earlier works of Stockhausen and Boulez.

Interesting post, Edward. I could see Shostakovich digging some Xenakis since it's so violent and turbulent. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 12, 2012, 02:44:21 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 20, 2012, 08:46:32 PMBought these two 7th recordings yesterday:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B009NEP3II.01.L.jpg)

I'm very interested in Nelsons Shostakovich output; I have seen him conducting the 8th in Lucerne (on Television) and it was great. Do you already have an opinion about the 7th, MI?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 12, 2012, 08:03:13 AM
Quote from: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 12, 2012, 02:44:21 AM
I'm very interested in Nelsons Shostakovich output; I have seen him conducting the 8th in Lucerne (on Television) and it was great. Do you already have an opinion about the 7th, MI?

Yes, Tapio. Madaboutmahler (Daniel) had been inquiring to me about this recording so here's what I wrote to him about the performance: I thought the performance was quite good, but it didn't really shake my bones like Bernstein's DG performance. I would rank it much below that performance and Masur's for that matter. Interpretatively, Nelsons used some swifter tempi, which seemed to rob some of the more lyrical moments of their beauty. Nelsons is a good conductor, but I don't find this performance very distinctive. Well performed certainly but that's just not enough for me.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2012, 06:14:21 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 17, 2007, 05:34:14 AM
Yesterday, I spent perhaps forty minutes leafing through David Hurwitz's Shostakovich Symphonies and Concertos - An Owner's Manual at the School Street Borders.  As the spirit of the title promises (and, to be sure, as one expects from Hurwitz), this is a book oriented not to experienced musicians, but to the amateur trying to make sense of It All.  It really isn't bad, all in all;  though there is the odd attitude, and the occasional trotting out of an idée reçue which prompts one, not to want to strangle Hurwitz (which would be distastefully extreme), but to leisurely bung some rotten fruit at him.  Against that, he's made some earnest attempt at illustrating the form and musical content of many of the works, which is a matter entirely different to the shallow rantage customary in many of his recordings reviews.  In some respects, really an interesting read, though from this senator's standpoint, a book I might browse at the bookstore, but not one I need on the shelf at home.

Completely forgot that I had posted this . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2012, 06:28:07 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 01, 2010, 08:41:50 PM
On Re-hearing the Tenth after 365 Days

I've just finished listening to Shostakovich's Tenth Symphony. The last time I heard it was on June 30, 2009, on my iPod, in the car on my family's return from a road trip out to Utah and the Grand Canyon. Location: somewhere on Interstate 10 in rural west Texas. Over the course of the road trip I had heard the Tenth twice (the other time was in Albuquerque), the Fifth several times in different performances, and Khachaturian's Cello Concerto on six (!) occasions. I was all Russianed out.

Then for a while I just didn't listen to the Tenth. It wasn't intentional; it just slipped the mind. I went to college in the fall and planned to give it a play to celebrate going back, but didn't have the time. Eventually I decided to save it for a special occasion. By December I decided to just wait until June 30 rolled around again. June 30 came. I listened to a CD for MusicWeb and went to bed early. Finally carved out an hour for the Tenth tonight, starring Herbert von Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra.

I should note that my familiarity with the symphony is purely from listening; I have never seen a score.

Impressions

First of all, how'd I go this long without listening to one of my favorite pieces? I just wanted to curl up in every minute of it ... thought a few times that I could just as easily have listened to it every day for a year. (This is, of course, not actually true.) This felt like Hemingway on his first day back from a year of shaving. Or something.

The Tenth Symphony is the culmination of the "Russian Romantic" symphonic tradition; it is the apotheosis of same. Had Rachmaninov, Lyapunov, Glazunov and Bortkiewicz seen it to its grave? No, they'd merely set up this fearsome volley. This symphony is, like Tchaikovsky's Fifth or Rachmaninov's Second (much more like the latter), based entirely on a simple motif stated at the outset. The first movement is built entirely on that motif, and I was really impressed at how much of the first seven to eight minutes of the symphony Shostakovich was able to repeat at and after the climax. Except for the interjection of the flute tune at 6:00, which serves as a catalyst for the huge central upheaval and provides just a tiny bit of contrast, this movement is really just one huge arc repeated, the second statement different enough from the first to make the double-arc combine for one.

A joke I'd been repeating during my Year of No Tenth was, "There oughta be a law of orchestration stating that the piccolo is expressly prohibited unless you are Shostakovich." It grew out of my frustration at how lesser composers fail to understand how to use the instrument: an unnecessary piccolo line, only about four seconds long, tarnishes the otherwise glorious opening movement Atterberg's Eighth; Johann Strauss' piccolos drive me up the wall just as much as his gift for melodies makes me sigh with pleasure; the piccolo at the end of Dvorak's Second has a great musical idea but is just too lightweight to penetrate the texture.

There are, of course, good uses of the piccolo. The two-note part in the storm of Beethoven's Sixth. Schulhoff's Concertino. Dorman's Piccolo Concerto. And all the other examples I can think of, all of them, are in Shostakovich. The Fifth. The Ninth. Others I am forgetting at the moment. And then there's the end of the first movement here. I Googled "best piccolo solo" and all the results said, "Stars and Stripes Forever." Undoubtedly a contender. I GMG-searched for "best piccolo solo" and there weren't any results. Now the Tenth is the first. Except, of course, that it's a piccolo duo, isn't it? And it is so darn good!

I was surprised by the third movement. Basically, it has three themes, the opening string tune (which is exactly the same theme as that of the second movement, which is in turn just the opening motif of the first movement extended a bit - this is one of the most tightly argued symphonies since Beethoven's Fifth, despite its length), the DSCH theme, and that weird foreign horn call. What surprised me about this movement, coming back after a year, is that it basically just alternates between the three in whatever order it pleases, and there's basically nothing else to it. It just bounces from motif to motif the whole time and yet rather than sounding senseless or academic or hopelessly confused, it's remarkably cohesive. I was also surprised and impressed to hear the first minute of the symphony replayed almost verbatim and as originally orchestrated, providing the base line to stuff which is easier to notice. Wow!

In Rachmaninov's Symphony No 2, the finale is the first movement to feature a melody that's not based on stair-step ascending intervals: that huge sweeping romantic Hollywood tune that breaks the symphony's mold and carries it over the threshold to a happy ending. Shostakovich's Tenth pre-empts this somewhat by introducing DSCH and the horn call into the third movement - but DSCH is the real challenger to the symphony's motto, and of course it wins. He's dancing on Stalin's grave, isn't he? Emphasis on dancing; this might be the most conventional of the movements, even down to the Return of the Scary Opening Motif right before the final coda (think Tchaikovsky Four). But the Scary Opening Motif has already been defeated: it is in that melancholy, wistful sigh of the (muted?) violins which serves as centerpiece to the introduction's reprise. And then, having laid the opening motif to rest once and for all, DSCH gets up and dances on the grave.

Conclusion

I chose Karajan because the final bars on his recording sound rich and full and gloriously final; on Barshai, they seem to just taper up into the bright acoustic. The flip side of the coin is that Barshai's clarinet solo in mvt. I is much more darkly brooding. I've got Skrowaczewski, too, but don't remember it very well.

All in all, as glorious an experience as it ever was, and I'm glad this symphony is back in my listening. I would not hesitate to rank it one of the great symphonies of all time, alongside contenders like Beethoven 5 and Brahms 4. It is, to my mind, surely not just a great symphony by a Russian, but the great triumph of the fate-obsessed, heart-on-sleeve Russian symphonic tradition which began with Rubinstein and Balakirev, achieved concert-hall popularity with Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov, and reached its raison d'être in 1953, when a composer turned to this seemingly burnt-out form to create some of his most personal music - and some of his most explicitly Russian outrage against the climate in which he was trapped.

I don't particularly find it useful to see Shostakovich's symphonies as reactions to, or depictions of, or portraits of, Communism; when I first began to get "into" the Tenth, it was cool to imagine the scherzo as "Stalin himself," or the third movement as "Shostakovich versus the oppressors." Now that interpretation is not as interesting as it had been. The only serious interest it has for me is its implications for the argument that this was the inevitable product of a flexible and tortured artistic genius, and for the hope, maybe the delusion, that had Shostakovich been given free rein to write whatever he wanted wherever he wanted, such a masterwork as this would not have been lost.

(http://www.classicalmusicclubtoronto.org/shostakovich_1975_1.jpg)

Lots of fun to revisit this post.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2012, 07:51:26 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 17, 2012, 04:10:44 PM
. . . I can't post a top ten yet because I have yet to hear many of the quartets, half the symphonies (still to go: 2-4, 8, 12-15), and Lady Macbeth, though I saw a scene of Lady on YouTube and thought it was astonishing.

Incidentally, Brian . . . hast yet heard the Fourth?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 28, 2012, 05:19:05 AM
Quote from: Catison on April 05, 2008, 09:56:25 AM
I just went for a very long run (it is finally 60 degrees in Wisconsin!!) and listened to the 4th Symphony.  Oh wow.  That is all I can say.

How did I miss this when it was first posted?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 28, 2012, 05:25:23 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 01, 2010, 09:12:55 PM
I seldom listen to Shostakovich. Not out of personal dislike or anything, because he composed some very good music, but I just don't find myself connecting to his music as much as I do other composers.

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 30, 2012, 08:36:21 PM
Shostakovich = brilliant composer. My absolute favorite of the whole lot.

Before and After . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 28, 2012, 05:34:38 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 03, 2011, 05:33:00 PM
November on Naxos (http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.572824-25):

(http://cdn.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.572824-25.gif)

"This recording of New Babylon, one of Shostakovich’s most inventive and truly symphonic film scores, is the first complete recording of all the surviving music from the original ‘lost’ manuscript full score and the first to use five solo string players only, as conceived by the composer. A remarkable collage of marches, can-cans, carnival music, tumultuous rhythms and musical quotations, New Babylon bristles with witty dissonance and brassy ebullience, emphasizing the film’s content rather than its visual surface. Mark Fitz-Gerald’s two previous Naxos world première recordings of Shostakovich’s film scores for Alone (8.570316) and The Girlfriends (8.572138) have been highly acclaimed."

Finally pulled the trigger on this.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 28, 2012, 06:44:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 28, 2012, 05:25:23 AM
Before and After . . . .

Yeah, it's always fascinating how opinions can change...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on December 28, 2012, 10:30:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 28, 2012, 05:34:38 AM
Finally pulled the trigger on this.
I'll be interested to hear your reaction. I listened to the full New Babylon last year, but apparently didn't post about it here. :(
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 28, 2012, 10:32:29 AM
Say, Brian, do we know when Petrenko will do the Opus 43?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 28, 2012, 10:34:45 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 28, 2012, 10:32:29 AM
Say, Brian, do we know when Petrenko will do the Opus 43?

OTOH, do I need another recording of the Opus 43? I've got twelve already . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on December 28, 2012, 10:40:24 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 28, 2012, 10:32:29 AM
Say, Brian, do we know when Petrenko will do the Opus 43?

18 months ago, when I was in England, Richard Whitehouse (the liner-note writer) bought me a pint and told me that Petrenko was in the middle of negotiations with EMI to be an exclusive EMI artist. Naxos was uncertain if the cycle would be finished before negotiations completed, or not, but the Fourth Symphony was planned as the final volume. I've just looked at the recording dates for Symphonies 2 and 15, and it appears as though No. 2 had just been recorded when we spoke (June 2011). I really haven't heard any news since, so whether they rushed the orchestra into the studio to record 4, 7, 13 and 14, or whether EMI granted a reprieve, or whether the cycle is kaput, I don't know.  :(

EDIT: I just asked the Liverpool Phil on Twitter, we'll see if they reply! They follow me so I could even send a DM...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on December 28, 2012, 03:39:43 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 28, 2012, 10:32:29 AM
Say, Brian, do we know when Petrenko will do the Opus 43?

Ditto, and the remaining DSCH symphonies.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 29, 2012, 07:46:55 AM
[DSCH 7/Nelsons]
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 12, 2012, 08:03:13 AMWell performed certainly but that's just not enough for me.

Thanks MI, appreciate your opinion.

Guys, is:
[asin]B0013816GU[/asin]
technically the same recording as original release:
[asin]B000001GB2[/asin]

I wanted to download as FLAC first, but well, EUR 20 for a digital download :( So I'm thinking about buying an available physical release.
EDIT: The first one is available as FLAC for ~EUR 10, which is alright for me.

Hopefully its not a crappy remaster with terrible dynamics compression or something like that, but exactly the same release as the old one.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 29, 2012, 08:36:12 AM
Quote from: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 29, 2012, 07:46:55 AM
[DSCH 7/Nelsons]
Thanks MI, appreciate your opinion.

Guys, is:
[asin]B0013816GU[/asin]
technically the same recording as original release:
[asin]B000001GB2[/asin]

I wanted to download as FLAC first, but well, EUR 20 for a digital download :( So I'm thinking about buying an available physical release.
EDIT: The first one is available as FLAC for ~EUR 10, which is alright for me.

Hopefully its not a crappy remaster with terrible dynamics compression or something like that, but exactly the same release as the old one.

I own the Grand Prix reissue of the this Bernstein Shostakovich 7th and it sounds great to my ears. An essential acquisition IHMO. The best 7th I've heard.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 30, 2012, 04:11:19 AM
I tried to buy the FLAC at DGG shop (they link to Universal Music download shop) and the result is, they do not want my money. I'll have to find other ways.

QuoteThere are items in your basket that are currently not available in your country. For more information on product availability and country restrictions, please visit our help section.

http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/cat/single?sort=newest_rec&PRODUCT_NR=4777587
->
FLAC files don't reach the German interwebbs.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Opus106 on December 30, 2012, 04:28:46 AM
Quote from: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 30, 2012, 04:11:19 AM
I tried to buy the FLAC at DGG shop (they link to Universal Music download shop) and the result is, they do not want my money. I'll have to find other ways.

http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/cat/single?sort=newest_rec&PRODUCT_NR=4777587
->
FLAC files don't reach the German interwebbs.

Rather, they don't reach interwebs anywhere outside of a tiny island north of France. (http://store.universal-music.co.uk/restofworld/Customer-Services/Digital-Product-Terms-and-Conditions-of-Sale/page/terms_digital#3)

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 30, 2012, 07:03:57 AM
To close out the year (and inspired by the ongoing String Quartet Gala) I've pulled the trigger at last on The Nose (Rozhdestvensky, Leningrad Phil & al. — also included is The Gamblers, which I think I may already have, though not sure that I've listened to it), The Song of the Forests (Misha Jurowski, the Cologne Radio Symphony & al. — disc also includes a suite from The Nose), vol. 2 of Olli Mustonen's interesting JS Bach/Op.87 interleaving.  Oh, and New Babylon, which I had already mentioned, I think.  Quite a serious effort at eradicating some lacunae.

I know John will wonder what's keeping me from The Bolt, and there will be some general dismay perhaps at how I'm neglecting some of the (many) film scores.  But I've longed, somehow, for New Babylon in a way which for whatever reason The Bolt has not attracted me; and with the wonderful Naxos issues of The Fall of Berlin, Girlfriends, and Alone (in addition to my already well-documented enthusiasm for the music for Hamlet and King Lear), I find myself quite sated w/r/t the film scores.

Just checking a list of works . . . very interesting that he worked on the (unfinished) opera The Gamblers in 1942.  Memory of the Ledi Makbet affair would have been quite green, and one wonders what hopes/plans he had for such an opera after Dostoyevsky.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 30, 2012, 07:27:26 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 30, 2012, 07:03:57 AM
To close out the year (and inspired by the ongoing String Quartet Gala) I've pulled the trigger at last on The Nose (Rozhdestvensky, Leningrad Phil & al. — also included is The Gamblers, which I think I may already have, though not sure that I've listened to it), The Song of the Forests (Misha Jurowski, the Cologne Radio Symphony & al. — disc also includes a suite from The Nose), vol. 2 of Olli Mustonen's interesting JS Bach/Op.87 interleaving.  Oh, and New Babylon, which I had already mentioned, I think.  Quite a serious effort at eradicating some lacunae.

I know John will wonder what's keeping me from The Bolt, and there will be some general dismay perhaps at how I'm neglecting some of the (many) film scores.  But I've longed, somehow, for New Babylon in a way which for whatever reason The Bolt has not attracted me; and with the wonderful Naxos issues of The Fall of Berlin, Girlfriends, and Alone (in addition to my already well-documented enthusiasm for the music for Hamlet and King Lear), I find myself quite sated w/r/t the film scores.

Just checking a list of works . . . very interesting that he worked on the (unfinished) opera The Gamblers in 1942.  Memory of the Ledi Makbet affair would have been quite green, and one wonders what hopes/plans he had for such an opera after Dostoyevsky.

We're all attracted to different things, but let me say that I believe The Golden Age is a much more substantial work than The Bolt, although the latter contains plenty of good music. My only complaint is that Shostakovich didn't compose enough ballet music! I need to listen to New Babylon myself. I bought the Frank Strobel recording on Hanssler many months ago and have yet to take a crack at it. The Nose is a crazy work, but you will enjoy it I think. I own the Gergiev recording. I need to listen to it again as it's been quite awhile. Haven't heard The Gamblers yet, so you'll have to inform me on that one.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 30, 2012, 08:53:37 AM
The Nose is fabulous, indeed; I saw the first (thus far, only, of course) Boston production a couple of seasons ago. If the Melodiya sonics for this recording prove to be on the lower end of their scale, I shall have to snap up some more recent CD . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on December 30, 2012, 09:59:15 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 30, 2012, 04:28:46 AMRather, they don't reach interwebs anywhere outside of a tiny island north of France. (http://store.universal-music.co.uk/restofworld/Customer-Services/Digital-Product-Terms-and-Conditions-of-Sale/page/terms_digital#3)

North-West France :D? I ordered a physical release via Amazon.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on December 30, 2012, 11:07:48 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 30, 2012, 08:53:37 AM
The Nose is fabulous, indeed; I saw the first (thus far, only, of course) Boston production a couple of seasons ago. If the Melodiya sonics for this recording prove to be on the lower end of their scale, I shall have to snap up some more recent CD . . . .

Hi Karl, I have the DVD of The Nose (Moscow Chamber Opera Theatre/Rozhdestvensky), and enjoyed it, although not nearly as much as I enjoy The Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk (Westbroek/Jansons).  That is definitely one of the best opera DVDs I've ever watched!

The sound and video quality of The Nose production isn't exactly the best, but enjoyable nonetheless.  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 30, 2012, 05:47:50 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 30, 2012, 08:53:37 AM
The Nose is fabulous, indeed; I saw the first (thus far, only, of course) Boston production a couple of seasons ago. If the Melodiya sonics for this recording prove to be on the lower end of their scale, I shall have to snap up some more recent CD . . . .

Very cool, Karl. I hope you enjoy the Rozhdestvensky.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on December 30, 2012, 07:47:47 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 30, 2012, 08:53:37 AM
The Nose is fabulous, indeed; I saw the first (thus far, only, of course) Boston production a couple of seasons ago. If the Melodiya sonics for this recording prove to be on the lower end of their scale, I shall have to snap up some more recent CD . . . .

I'd suggest the Gergiev, even if the Rozhdestvensky  is itself top notch.

I must say The Nose is possibly the only opera in which the cast listing is longer than the summary of the action. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 31, 2012, 03:37:28 AM
Most Gogolian!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 31, 2012, 07:36:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 30, 2012, 07:03:57 AM
To close out the year (and inspired by the ongoing String Quartet Gala) I've pulled the trigger at last on The Nose (Rozhdestvensky, Leningrad Phil & al. — also included is The Gamblers, which I think I may already have, though not sure that I've listened to it) [....]

Turns out that The Gamblers which I've already got is the Bolshoi troupe led by Chistyakov, so at least the Rozhdestvensky recording won't be a duplicate : )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on December 31, 2012, 12:51:00 PM
Speaking of The Nose, I would love it if there comes a new DVD version of the opera in upcoming years....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on January 01, 2013, 08:23:00 AM
Hey Karl, John, Ray and others, I got a reply from the Liverpool Philharmonic about the continuation of the Shostakovich symphonies with Vasily Petrenko.

"No definite dates but there are more in the pipeline."
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 08:24:26 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 01, 2013, 08:23:00 AM
Hey Karl, John, Ray and others, I got a reply from the Liverpool Philharmonic about the continuation of the Shostakovich symphonies with Vasily Petrenko.

"No definite dates but there are more in the pipeline."

This is good to hear. Like Karl, I'm anxious to hear Petrenko give the 7th a go. Should be interesting.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on January 01, 2013, 08:54:41 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 01, 2013, 08:23:00 AM
Hey Karl, John, Ray and others, I got a reply from the Liverpool Philharmonic about the continuation of the Shostakovich symphonies with Vasily Petrenko.

"No definite dates but there are more in the pipeline."

Excellent news, Brian.  Thank you for the update!  :)  I've really enjoyed pretty much all of the Petrenko/RLPO recordings, the only 'lukewarm' recording for me is the too slow 5th symphony.  However, I still enjoy it.

The others recordings for me, I think, are all fantastic, especially the 10th and 9th.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 01, 2013, 09:11:13 AM
Well done, Brian!

Separately . . . why do I suddenly have a hankerin' for The Bedbug? . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 09:14:20 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 01, 2013, 08:54:41 AM
Excellent news, Brian.  Thank you for the update!  :)  I've really enjoyed pretty much all of the Petrenko/RLPO recordings, the only 'lukewarm' recording for me is the too slow 5th symphony.  However, I still enjoy it.

The others recordings for me, I think, are all fantastic, especially the 10th and 9th.

I definitely wasn't impressed with Petrenko's 5th, but I didn't like his performance of the 15th either especially after listening to Kondrashin's Dresden performance. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 04, 2013, 08:22:02 AM
It will not be a true first listen, but I am going to crank The Song of the Forests this afternoon!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2013, 08:25:24 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 04, 2013, 08:22:02 AM
It will not be a true first listen, but I am going to crank The Song of the Forests this afternoon!

It's been quite some time since I've heard this work. I see you bought the Michail Jurowski. Please let me know your thoughts on this performances once you've heard it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 04, 2013, 10:15:28 AM
Lenny's Wiener Philharmoniker recording of the Sixth & Ninth: CD or DVD?  What is the consensus?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on February 04, 2013, 11:44:47 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 04, 2013, 10:15:28 AM
Lenny's Wiener Philharmoniker recording of the Sixth & Ninth: CD or DVD?  What is the consensus?

There's a short interview with him on the DVD... but other than that, those recordings aren't a pleasure (for me) to look at... with that seedy red of the Konzertverein and those bad 80s haircut and visibly self-important players...

Might as well grab the box with all the Lennie-DSCH... Stravinsky free! (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html)


(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2j9Rc9V-Y7E/UOad47-wHII/AAAAAAAAFdU/2PgfySiBx34/s1600/Best_Recordings_of_2005_laurson_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html]http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 04, 2013, 12:21:28 PM
Hm, very much of their time, are they? . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 05, 2013, 11:33:13 AM
I can now safely determine, that after Beethoven & Brahms, Shostakovich is my next favourite composer.

:)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on February 07, 2013, 04:19:13 AM
Ray, John, etc.: The Royal Liverpool Philharmonic and Vasily Petrenko are rehearsing for a live performance of the Fourth Symphony, and will subsequently be recording it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2013, 04:20:37 AM
You meant et al., and great news, Brian!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2013, 04:22:39 AM
I've lent my buddy Marc at the MFA shop the second volume of Olli Mustonen's mash-up of the Bach WTC Book I and the Opus 87 . . . and while he is enjoying the Bach, he reports that the Shostakovich is just blowin JSB out of the water.  Wonderful that the music can have that sort of impact on a fresh listener!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Fafner on February 07, 2013, 04:45:45 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 07, 2013, 04:19:13 AM
Ray, John, etc.: The Royal Liverpool Philharmonic and Vasily Petrenko are rehearsing for a live performance of the Fourth Symphony, and will subsequently be recording it.

That's great news indeed. I have been eagerly awaiting Petrenko's account of the Fourth.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2013, 04:48:18 AM
It's got to be better than Gergiev's!

(* ducks on hurried way out *)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 07, 2013, 05:21:16 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 07, 2013, 04:19:13 AM
Ray, John, etc.: The Royal Liverpool Philharmonic and Vasily Petrenko are rehearsing for a live performance of the Fourth Symphony, and will subsequently be recording it.

Wonderful news, Brian!  Really looking forward to it!!  :)  Thank you for the update.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 06:39:13 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 07, 2013, 04:19:13 AM
Ray, John, etc.: The Royal Liverpool Philharmonic and Vasily Petrenko are rehearsing for a live performance of the Fourth Symphony, and will subsequently be recording it.

This is good news. He's up against some stiff competition: Previn, Kondrashin, Barshai, Salonen, and, my personal favorite, Rattle.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2013, 06:47:36 AM
It's not a competition. It is perfectly right that a piece be continually performed. We don't retire the jersey just because there's been a signally good recording. Music is a performing art, not a bloody museum piece!

Nobody says, Gosh, there's just no point in performing Beethoven, since von Karajan did it about as good as anyone could.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 07:03:15 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 07, 2013, 06:47:36 AM
It's not a competition. It is perfectly right that a piece be continually performed. We don't retire the jersey just because there's been a signally good recording. Music is a performing art, not a bloody museum piece!

Nobody says, Gosh, there's just no point in performing Beethoven, since von Karajan did it about as good as anyone could.

Forgot your medication today, Karl? :-\ I'm all for new performances, but as a listener I can't help to compare them with past performances. Petrenko is good conductor, no doubt, but I've already got many favorites in the 4th. So with this in mind, we'll see how his performance goes. I hope it's not another dud like his 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 15th.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on February 07, 2013, 07:16:02 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 07:03:15 AMbut as a listener I can't help to compare them with past performances.

That's your style as a listener. I write ~80 reviews for MusicWeb every year, but I'm perfectly able to turn off the compare switch. With an inferior recording it's easy to say "this is no Karajan/whomever," but all great recordings are great in their own way. That explains why for a lot of works I love, I have 3-4 favorites that are all opposites.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on February 07, 2013, 07:22:00 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 07:03:15 AM
Forgot your medication today, Karl? :-\ I'm all for new performances, but as a listener I can't help to compare them with past performances. Petrenko is good conductor, no doubt, but I've already got many favorites in the 4th. So with this in mind, we'll see how his performance goes. I hope it's not another dud like his 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 15th.

it seems to me you are talking about the recording of the performance, while karl is talking about the performance itself. a performance isn't judged by recordings... it's judged by the moment (and judged in light of other performances... with, possibly, being further informed by recordings.

you infer, understandably, that this performance (or a studio run-through that is part of that particular run of performances) will be turned into a recording. then it will stand next to the aforementioned. and even then, each generation needs their DSCH, just as each generation needs their LvB.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2013, 07:22:41 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 07:03:15 AM
Forgot your medication today, Karl?

Between this and your Holmboe rant last night, you're really making an effort to be likeable, right?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 07:26:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 07, 2013, 07:22:41 AM

Between this and your Holmboe rant last night, you're really making an effort to be likeable, right?

I could ask you the same question, Karl. Was that outburst of yours above really necessary?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2013, 07:29:28 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 07, 2013, 07:22:00 AM
it seems to me you are talking about the recording of the performance, while karl is talking about the performance itself. a performance isn't judged by recordings... it's judged by the moment (and judged in light of other performances... with, possibly, being further informed by recordings.

you infer, understandably, that this performance (or a studio run-through that is part of that particular run of performances) will be turned into a recording. then it will stand next to the aforementioned. and even then, each generation needs their DSCH, just as each generation needs their LvB.

Aye.

And nowadays, it is almost the rule rather than the exception that there will be a document of the performance.

And as Brian points out, every recording of a very-good-to-excellent performance will have its own proper interest.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on February 07, 2013, 07:30:22 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 07, 2013, 07:22:00 AM(or a studio run-through that is part of that particular run of performances)

It's my understanding that this will be the case. The RLPO only tweeted at me, nothing official, but they said that when the recording sessions take place it will appear separately on their website.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2013, 07:33:05 AM
Very excited that the Op.43 is in the pipeline! (Brian, do I recall aright that this is a symphony you've not yet heard?)

Brian & Jens, what opinions do you hold of the Petrenko account of the Op.103?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on February 07, 2013, 07:39:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 07, 2013, 07:33:05 AM
Very excited that the Op.43 is in the pipeline! (Brian, do I recall aright that this is a symphony you've not yet heard?)

Brian & Jens, what opinions do you hold of the Petrenko account of the Op.103?


1. Yes, it is a symphony I've not yet heard! I own Previn, Barshai, and I think one other recording in some giant box set somewhere; between Previn and Barshai, which for a first listen?

2. Very favorable, wish the sound quality could hold the gigantic climax to the massacre, but not sure any CD yet can. But it compares well with others I've heard. I am somewhat prejudiced against it because I saw V. Petrenko do the "Year 1905" live with the London Philharmonic, a stunning/amazing experience that can't be repeated.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 07:42:38 AM
My opinion of Petrenko has been hit/miss mostly miss. I liked his 8th, 10th, and 11th, but thought very little of his other performances. There's something missing in his conducting of the others. His 5th was a monstrosity. He must have fallen asleep at the wheel on this one. Where's the guts? That Largo sounds completely comatose. One of the worst performances I've ever heard of this symphony. His 15th lacked any real excitement or at least that I got from listening to his performance and Kondrashin back-to-back. But every cycle has good/bad performances and none of them are going to be 100% without flaws.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2013, 07:47:31 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 07, 2013, 07:39:25 AM
1. Yes, it is a symphony I've not yet heard! I own Previn, Barshai, and I think one other recording in some giant box set somewhere; between Previn and Barshai, which for a first listen?

2. Very favorable, wish the sound quality could hold the gigantic climax to the massacre, but not sure any CD yet can. But it compares well with others I've heard. I am somewhat prejudiced against it because I saw V. Petrenko do the "Year 1905" live with the London Philharmonic, a stunning/amazing experience that can't be repeated.

What's the third option? ; ) Even though I think it was the Previn through which I became reconciled to the piece, I am not sure I would recommend either Previn or Barshai for an entrée.

And I had a closely corresponding experience with Gergiev & the Leningrad . . . heard him lead the Mariinka band live in Worcester's Mechanics Hall, just a shattering experience, with which listening to no CD could possibly compare.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2013, 07:48:52 AM
Hm, wonder how Cato is doing with his inaugural survey of the quartets? Maybe he has finished, and I was inattentive . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on February 07, 2013, 07:52:59 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 07, 2013, 07:47:31 AM
And I had a closely corresponding experience with Gergiev & the Leningrad . . . heard him lead the Mariinka band live in Worcester's Mechanics Hall, just a shattering experience, with which listening to no CD could possibly compare.

Yes, exactly that feeling. Who would you suggest for a starter? Perhaps my mystery performer is one of them  ;D

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 07:42:38 AM
My opinion of Petrenko has been hit/miss mostly miss. I liked his 8th, 10th, and 11th, but thought very little of his other performances. There's something missing in his conducting of the others. His 5th was a monstrosity. He must have fallen asleep at the wheel on this one. Where's the guts? That Largo sounds completely comatose. One of the worst performances I've ever heard of this symphony. His 15th lacked any real excitement or at least that I got from listening to his performance and Kondrashin back-to-back. But every cycle has good/bad performances and none of them are going to be 100% without flaws.

I'm very favorable on 9 through 11 from Petrenko. The Fifteenth has divided a lot of people, but the general consensus seems to be that it's interesting, but an "alternative" view. The Fifth was a low point for me too, though not nearly as bad as you're saying - for instance, Kreizberg employs nearly identical tempos in the last two movements but is outstanding. And I'd like to plug Petrenko's Ninth for an insight which I find unique to his performance: the way that he stretches and teases the tempo of the finale, and especially its main tune, brings out more than any other performance the idea that this tune contains (in the words of Monty Python) howls of derisive laughter.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 07:51:47 AM
Gergiev is more overrated than Petrenko. That guy has always had too many irons in the fire. Not very consistent, so excuse my skepticism when I say that I highly doubt Gergiev's performance was a "shattering experience."
Well... Karl was there for it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 07:55:08 AM
Speaking of Kreizberg, have you heard his 11th with the Monte Carlo Philharmonic, Brian? Not too shabby.

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Jan13/Shostakovich_sy11_OPMC005.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 08:01:22 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 07, 2013, 07:52:59 AM
Yes, exactly that feeling. Who would you suggest for a starter? Perhaps my mystery performer is one of them  ;D

Try Caetani's 11th, Brian. I thought it was especially good. The Ninth of January movement was especially enthralling. Caetani employs quite a unique orchestra for his Shosty cycle: the Orchestra Sinfonica di Milano Giuseppe Verdi.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Fafner on February 07, 2013, 08:02:14 AM
Petrenko's Fifth was a disappointment for me as well, but nowhere near as bad as you make it appear. I did not like Kreizberg very much, but I only listened to it once. I'll have to compare the two.
I rather like Petrenko's Fifteenth and I really like his 6th/12th.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 08:05:46 AM
Quote from: Fafner on February 07, 2013, 08:02:14 AM
Petrenko's Fifth was a disappointment for me as well, but nowhere near as bad as you make it appear. I did not like Kreizberg very much, but I only listened to it once. I'll have to compare the two.
I rather like Petrenko's Fifteenth and I really like his 6th/12th.

I had to use some dramatic effect in commenting on Petrenko's 5th. It's not as bad as I made it out to be, but it's certainly a lackluster performance with not much going for it. His 6th was okay. Nothing special, but then again, I've always found Haitink's to be my preferable performance for the 6th. The 12th I don't like much at all as a piece of music, but Rostropovich on Warner (formally Teldec) turned in a great performance as did Haitink.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on February 07, 2013, 08:06:54 AM
Thanks for the reminder Fafner, I haven't bought Petrenko's 6/12 yet!

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 07:55:08 AM
Speaking of Kreizberg, have you heard his 11th with the Monte Carlo Philharmonic, Brian? Not too shabby.

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Jan13/Shostakovich_sy11_OPMC005.jpg)

Take a look at the URL of that image. That's the cover of my personal copy of the CD!

QuoteThis was one of the last recordings Yakov Kreizberg made before passing away at the age 51. He had previously made his mark in Shostakovich with a truly distinctive pairing of the Fifth and Ninth symphonies, conducting the Russian National Orchestra; my colleague Tony Haywood was not as fond of it as I was. This excellent Eleventh makes clear yet again what a loss to the musical world it was when he died in 2011. Kreizberg has the Orchestre Philharmonique de Monte-Carlo sounding perfectly suited to this music, in an interpretation which brings the symphony across with conviction and power.

The program, as put forth by Shostakovich - or to him by the authorities? - necessitates an adagio first movement ('The Palace Square') of eerie and hushed suspense. It sets out a few motifs which will recur through the whole symphony: the violins' opening line, the ominously distant drumbeat, the equally disembodied-sounding trumpet tune. The atmosphere in this performance is terrific, although compared to the Liverpool Philharmonic under Vasily Petrenko, the Monte Carlo trumpeter seems a bit too chipper, too forward. Then comes the massive second movement, with its depiction of a bloody massacre by the tsarists. There's really no way to bring this off on CD due to the movement's enormous dynamic range: if you can hear it live - as I was lucky enough to do when Petrenko presented it with the London Philharmonic - the sheer bloody violence and loudness of the climax are more or less the most terrifying thing one can hear in a concert hall. On disc it's hard to get the dynamic range of the piece done right, and this recording is no exception. The playing is superbly bone-chilling and the orchestra sounds possessed, but I yearn for the gut-punch that the massacre really only delivers live.

The adagio which follows, a lyrical "In Memoriam," is another story: here Kreizberg brings a flowing account which briefly even permits beauty and hope to rise to the surface. It's the highlight of a very good performance. After that, there are passages in the middle of the finale, including a reprise of the first movement, which do, here, feel overlong and outstay their welcome; it's a minute longer than Petrenko in the same section. Then we get the final "twist," as Shostakovich's coda returns to the terrifying horror-music of the tsarist oppressors. Kreizberg paces this perfectly and builds the coda with tremendous power, the orchestra giving him exactly what he wants. Again, the CD medium just can't contain the full force of this music.

Nobody is going to listen to the Orchestre Philharmonique de Monte Carlo here and think they sound anything but Russian. That alone is a tribute to Kreizberg's skill as a musician, but throw in the excellence of this account and we have a really worthy tribute. Vasily Petrenko's accomplishment with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic is similar, though - transforming an unexpected orchestra into a Shostakovich powerhouse - and, among recent recordings by émigrés, his more concise reading may be preferred. Even Naxos is a bit frustrated by how to record the symphony, though.

This may not have been his very finest, but I wish Yakov Kreizberg could have given us much, much more.

Brian Reinhart

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Jan13/Shostakovich_sy11_OPMC005.htm#ixzz2KEZ9pYk9
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2013, 08:09:19 AM
I've said this earlier, but on revisiting the Petrenko Fifth, I found it in fact a very strong performance.

Quote from: Brian on February 07, 2013, 07:52:59 AM
. . . Who would you suggest for a starter? Perhaps my mystery performer is one of them  ;D

Maksim Dmitriyevich remains unsurpassed for me.

Also excellent, I find: Haitink/CSO & Jansons/Bavarian Radio Symphony.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 08:09:39 AM
Silly me, I had forgotten you did some Shostakovich reviews and this was one of the recordings you reviewed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2013, 08:27:08 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 07, 2013, 07:52:59 AM
Well... Karl was there for it.

Why should that fact prevent John from spouting fatuity? ; )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 08:36:47 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 07, 2013, 08:27:08 AM
Why should that fact prevent John from spouting fatuity? ; )

Not all experiences are shared, Karl. I was just surprised that Gergiev gave a good performance considering his track record, but he's certainly able to give them. I don't have the opportunity, or luxury, of living in Boston, so I don't get to see any classical concerts. The ASO seem only interested in playing Beethoven these days and so where does that leave me? I've got recordings on my shelf and a stereo system worthy to play them. If this is my only outlet to hear the music that I want to hear, then it's damn fine outlet I think. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 07, 2013, 08:40:52 AM
After re-visiting the Petrenko/RLPO 5th, it is nowhere nearly as I bad as I once thought.  The only (and it's my own personal viewpoint) 'problem' I have is with the coda to the symphony, which I find Petrenko/RLPO take it a little too slow (it is missing that propulsive momentum).

Having said that, I don't think I've heard a better performance of the 9th and 10th symphonies, than Petrenko/RLPO's take on it.

A very close to perfect 10th (for me) is Ormandy/PO (it is paired with the 4th - American premiere) on Sony Classical, but it is unfortunately out of print.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on February 07, 2013, 08:43:14 AM
Ray, I'm hoping Sony does a super cheap box set of Ormandy's Shostakovich so I can grab that 4/10 duo, which has been on my want list since I was a college student! Agreed, Petrenko is my go-to for the 9th and 10th.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 08:36:47 AM
Not all experiences are shared, Karl. I was just surprised that Gergiev gave a good performance considering his track record, but he's certainly able to give them. I don't have the opportunity, or luxury, of living in Boston, so I don't get to see any classical concerts. The ASO seem only interested in playing Beethoven these days and so where does that leave me? I've got recordings on my shelf and a stereo system worthy to play them. If this is my only outlet to hear the music that I want to hear, then it's damn fine outlet I think. :)

You'll find, if you ever have the opportunity, that many a live concert can make a tremendous impression even if it need not have done so, critically speaking. When my university orchestra did Sibelius' Fifth, I was floored, and my brain veritably exploded, but now when I hear a recording of that exact concert, I think "what a pitiful, clogged performance." Never mind, though, it converted me to a Sibelius addict, so it did the trick!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on February 07, 2013, 08:45:51 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 07, 2013, 07:33:05 AM

Brian & Jens, what opinions do you hold of the Petrenko account of the Op.103?[/font]

I'm consistently disappointed at a very commendable level by Petrenko, due to high expectations. The great being the enemy of the good and such. That said, I still enjoy his DSCH... and the 11th is one that I will return with higher hopes (based on a memory of an impression, more than a memory of the performance [which is important to distinguish every so often]). That unlikely triplet of 9, 10, and 11, seems strongest so far.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 07, 2013, 08:49:21 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 07, 2013, 08:43:14 AM
Ray, I'm hoping Sony does a super cheap box set of Ormandy's Shostakovich so I can grab that 4/10 duo, which has been on my want list since I was a college student! Agreed, Petrenko is my go-to for the 9th and 10th.


Brian, do you know if Ormandy/Philadelphia record most of the DSCH symphonies?

I had the extreme pleasure attending a live performance of the DSCH 10th, of our former Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra conductor, Andrei Boreyko, a few years ago.  It was an experience I will treasure forever.

It was an all 'Russian' concert, featuring Prokofiev's Violin Concerto and also made me fall in love with Rimsky-Korsakov's Russian Easter Overture (which is now one of my favourite orchestral pieces by any composer!)  :)

FWIW, Bruce in NY attended a live concert as well with Boreyko and the NY Phil conducting the DSCH 4th symphony.  He said it was one of the best performances of the 4th he's ever heard!  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2013, 08:54:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 08:36:47 AM
Not all experiences are shared, Karl.

Which is why it is not particularly intelligent on your part to highly doubt Gergiev's performance was a "shattering experience" when you weren't there.

Take as much rope as you require, John.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 07, 2013, 08:58:50 AM
So Brian, if I read correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong), but the recording of Petrenko/RLPO 4th will be a 'live' recording?  All the other recordings so far have been studio, correct?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Fafner on February 07, 2013, 08:59:04 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 07, 2013, 08:40:52 AM
After re-visiting the Petrenko/RLPO 5th, it is nowhere nearly as I bad as I once thought.  The only (and it's my own personal viewpoint) 'problem' I have is with the coda to the symphony, which I find Petrenko/RLPO take it a little too slow (it is missing that propulsive momentum).

The fact that it is missing that propulsive momentum is the entire point of this interpretation. It should feel forced and dragging and leave the audience cringing, wishing for release.
I personally much prefer this slower approach to the one employed by Bernstein and Haitink. I just think that both Petrenko and Kreizberg take it a touch too far.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 07, 2013, 09:00:50 AM
Quote from: Fafner on February 07, 2013, 08:59:04 AM
The fact that it is missing that propulsive momentum is the entire point of this interpretation. It should feel forced and dragging and leave the audience cringing, wishing for release.
I personally much prefer this slower approach to the one employed by Bernstein and Haitink. I just think that both Petrenko and Kreizberg take it a touch too far.

FWIW, I agree that Bernstein's take feels WAY, WAY too fast!!

I like Barshai/WDR's take with the 5th's coda.  Seems 'just right'.  Again, just my personal preference.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2013, 09:04:38 AM
Quote from: Fafner on February 07, 2013, 08:59:04 AM
. . . I personally much prefer this slower approach to the one employed by Bernstein and Haitink. I just think that both Petrenko and Kreizberg take it a touch too far.

I feel that, actually, Petrenko didn't take it too far, but there was one point where the pace seemed to lose its step. The recovery was quick, and otherwise I really feel that all the tempi were successful.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2013, 09:05:59 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 07, 2013, 08:58:50 AM
So Brian, if I read correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong), but the recording of Petrenko/RLPO 4th will be a 'live' recording?

If I read Brian aright, Ray, they are performing the piece live, but arranging distinct recording sessions.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on February 07, 2013, 11:21:42 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 07, 2013, 09:05:59 AM
If I read Brian aright, Ray, they are performing the piece live, but arranging distinct recording sessions.
This.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 07, 2013, 06:04:37 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 07, 2013, 08:49:21 AM
Brian, do you know if Ormandy/Philadelphia record most of the DSCH symphonies?

I'm not Brian but my recollection is Ormandy's recorded syms 1, 4, 5, 10, and the last three. (I have all except 1 and 5). I think all but 13 and 14 have made it to domestic CD, with 13 & 14 possibly on an overseas CD of some sort, IIRC.


Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on February 07, 2013, 06:05:20 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 07, 2013, 05:43:20 PM
But what I'm saying, Karl, is my experience with Gergiev is different than your own. Regardless if I was there or I wasn't there, I'm familiar with Gergiev's track record and he strikes out more than he hits home runs. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Like I said, he's fully capable of pulling of a great concert, but, on record, where, again, I judge his conducting since I don't live near a major metropolis, he's seriously inconsistent. Is it okay with you that I have my own doubts about this concert performance? Is it okay with you that just because you said the concert was good that I remain skeptical? I'll continue to remain on the fence about Gergiev's Shostakovich performances. For me, his current cycle has produced one dud after another.

Now, here's some rope for you...

You admit yourself that he does hit a few home runs. Everyone who has heard him more than three times in concert will confirm that; everyone who has five Gergiev recordings will also confirm that. So when Karl was there and says: It was great... why would you doubt that, only because you think that more often than not, he achieves less?

You are basically suggesting that it's more likely that Karl is wrong in having thought that what he heard was great, based on Gergiev's spotty record, than to assume that that was one of those high points.

I've heard the worst Parsifal (or Wagner, for that matter) with Gergiev live, but I've also heard the greatest Verdi Requiem with him; stupendous Boris G. and Lady Macbeth... and even a surprisingly good Mahler 5th and fine (but not always outstanding) DSCH... his Mahler recordings (8th and 5th excepted) I find somewhere between disappointing and tosh, but his DSCH PCs very good, his most recent Walkuere excellent... and so forth.

It is of course your prerogative to not believe any personal account. But why would you inherently question it, unless you had experience of Karl (or anyone else) being completely uncritical and loving everything he does?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 07, 2013, 06:06:03 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 07, 2013, 06:04:37 PM
I'm not Brian but my recollection is Ormandy's recorded syms 1, 4, 5, 10, and the last three. (I have all except 1 and 5). I think all but 13 and 14 have made it to domestic CD, with a 13 & 14 possibly on an overseas CD of some sort, IIRC.

Excellent, thank you kindly, Brian stand-in!  $:) :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 07, 2013, 06:10:30 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 07, 2013, 06:06:03 PM
Excellent, thank you kindly, Brian stand-in!  $:) :)

:)


Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on February 07, 2013, 08:02:07 PM
As a piece of general advice to Brian,  I would suggest saving Barshai and Gergiev for last when you hear the Fourth.  That's on the principle of saving the best for last.

In fact, Gergiev's Fourth was the first Fourth I heard, and it has remained my favorite over the years.
Another Fourth I liked a good deal (but not as good as Barshai) was Rattle/CBSO--another conductor who gives some highly variable results.  I don't know, off the top of my head,  if I have the Previn.  I've got both Haitinks--CSO and Concertgebouw--and I prefer the older Dutch version, but neither one is what I reach for when I want my dose of DSCH.

Yet on the other hand, in contrast to Karl's reaction to the live performance,  I find Gergiev's recording of the Seventh to be well down in the rankings.   And while I'm ore positive about his Mahler than Jens,  I have to admit that his M4 is the worst recording of that symphony I can remember hearing.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on February 08, 2013, 12:49:14 AM
DSCH 4

Gergiev good, (http://ionarts.blogspot.de/2005/01/shostakovich-symphony-no4-gergiev.html) Barshai also good (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007LMP6O0/goodmusicguide-20) (and very, very different). Barshai is available outside the various boxes again, thanks to alto.

Best of all worlds, as I don't tire going on about: Jansons (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html).

Bychkov (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000JLPNIE/goodmusicguide-20), for war, brute power is something, too... but not as thrilling (naturally) as it was in concert (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/when-heldenleben-orchestra-stops-at.html).

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 08, 2013, 03:37:21 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 07, 2013, 08:02:07 PM
Yet on the other hand, in contrast to Karl's reaction to the live performance,  I find Gergiev's recording of the Seventh to be well down in the rankings.

I don't think I've heard it. (The only Gergiev/Shostakovich symphony recording I recall listening to is of the Fourth, which struck me as most peculiarly wilful.) A friend (now passed on, God rest his soul) who was also at the Mechanics Hall concert later bought the studio recording (with, IIRC, the combined forces of the Mariinka and the Concertgebouworkest), and he told me he found the recording signally lacking, even considering that one cannot expect a recording to match the power and impact of a great live performance.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Fafner on February 08, 2013, 06:23:01 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 07, 2013, 04:19:13 AM
Ray, John, etc.: The Royal Liverpool Philharmonic and Vasily Petrenko are rehearsing for a live performance of the Fourth Symphony, and will subsequently be recording it.

Of course, based on precedence, it will take another year or more to get released.  :(
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 08, 2013, 06:30:27 AM
Believe me: as a composer, I am alive to how far ahead the time-scale stretches, in organizing musical events!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on February 08, 2013, 12:39:31 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 08, 2013, 12:49:14 AM
DSCH 4

Gergiev good, (http://ionarts.blogspot.de/2005/01/shostakovich-symphony-no4-gergiev.html) Barshai also good (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007LMP6O0/goodmusicguide-20) (and very, very different). Barshai is available outside the various boxes again, thanks to alto.

Best of all worlds, as I don't tire going on about: Jansons (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html).

Bychkov (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000JLPNIE/goodmusicguide-20), for war, brute power is something, too... but not as thrilling (naturally) as it was in concert (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/when-heldenleben-orchestra-stops-at.html).

Barshai's whole set is, IMO,  worth getting.  The only one out of that cycle I didn't like was 11, and I'm willing to assume, pending a second hearing, that was the result of a bad ear day.

Inspection revealed I do have the Previn, and also the Jansons.  Further recollection suggests Previn was well down in the pack,  and that while Jansons was excellent, he was not as excellent as Barshai and Gergiev.  Or if you will, a different kind of excellence.

ETA:

???

I see the Amazon page for Bychkov  includes a very positive review from....Santa Fe Listener.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 08, 2013, 01:25:43 PM
Well, clearly I need to listen to the Gergiev afresh, to explain my reservations . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on February 08, 2013, 05:30:58 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 08, 2013, 01:25:43 PM
Well, clearly I need to listen to the Gergiev afresh, to explain my reservations . . . .

Actually,  I think your description was rather precise, although perhaps I would have used a different term.  Not sure what the term would be, however, so I'll use your term--this is a willful symphony;  DSCH was being willful in how he wrote it, and Gergiev's approach fits that, in my ears.

Or to put it another way: this might be a symphony in which it's okay for the conductor to be idiosyncratic and tempermental.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on February 09, 2013, 12:49:57 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 08, 2013, 12:39:31 PM

ETA:

???

I see the Amazon page for Bychkov  includes a very positive review from....Santa Fe Listener.

Something about broken clocks comes to mind.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 08, 2013, 05:30:58 PM
Actually,  I think your description was rather precise, although perhaps I would have used a different term.  Not sure what the term would be, however, so I'll use your term--this is a willful symphony;  DSCH was being willful in how he wrote it, and Gergiev's approach fits that, in my ears.

Or to put it another way: this might be a symphony in which it's okay for the conductor to be idiosyncratic and tempermental.

Are we talking about the 4th? More and more I realize that it's Shostakovich's best. Just last night I was talking about the Fourth over after-dinner drinks... how it contains all the seeds of the other symphonies that would come, from five to fifteen... and indeed all the ingredients that make Shostakovich. The Mahler, the anguish, the silence (compare last movements with 15th), the clucking, the wistful lyricism, the driving rhythmic patterns, the lumbering into power via slow movements... It's a masterpiece... and it could have gotten any composer arrested in any country, it's such a powerful condemnation of abuse of power.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 09, 2013, 06:24:26 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 09, 2013, 12:49:57 AM
Are we talking about the 4th? More and more I realize that it's Shostakovich's best[....]

That's what I'm talkin'!

Still, a sentimental fondness for the Tenth, which was the first which I heard live, in a shatteringly good performance by the Cleveland Orchestra led by Simon Rattle. Thus, roughly half the time I feel that the Fourth is the best . . . the other (rough) half: the Tenth . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 09, 2013, 06:29:21 AM
Still haven't quite warmed up or been completely swept away with the 4th Symphony.  I don't dislike it, I just haven't developed that same 'wow' factor that I have with most of the other symphonies yet.

I'd say my absolute four favourites to this point in time are:  The 10th, 8th, 5th and 11th.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 09, 2013, 06:34:12 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 09, 2013, 06:29:21 AM
Still haven't quite warmed up or been completely swept away with the 4th Symphony.  I don't dislike it, I just haven't developed that same 'wow' factor that I have with most of the other symphonies yet.

I was a while warming to the Fourth myself, Ray. I think my trouble may have been, that I had read so much about the piece (some of it, rather "sexed up," frankly) . . . so when I came to the actual listening, there was (probably an unfair, though unintentional) "Is this it?" factor.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on February 10, 2013, 06:08:41 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 09, 2013, 12:49:57 AM
Something about broken clocks comes to mind.

Are we talking about the 4th? More and more I realize that it's Shostakovich's best. Just last night I was talking about the Fourth over after-dinner drinks... how it contains all the seeds of the other symphonies that would come, from five to fifteen... and indeed all the ingredients that make Shostakovich. The Mahler, the anguish, the silence (compare last movements with 15th), the clucking, the wistful lyricism, the driving rhythmic patterns, the lumbering into power via slow movements... It's a masterpiece... and it could have gotten any composer arrested in any country, it's such a powerful condemnation of abuse of power.

You're quite correct in most of what you say there.  My first thought on hearing the Fourth was "no wonder the commissars hated it!"

I did in fact first hear it, rather early in my DSCH career (so to speak), without any advance knowledge of what it was like beyond the liner notes provided in the Gergiev recording.  I'm not sure if it's Shostakovich's best symphony--I'd probably name the Eleventh for that highly subjective honor--it's certainly one of his best (better IMO than 5,7, and 10,  other symphonies often given that honor), and I prefer it to almost any symphony I've heard by composers other than Shostakovich written after 1920  (yes, this does mean better than any of Ralph Vaughn Williams's symphonies--but please note that there's a whole swath of symphonies by Miaskovsky and others I have yet to hear even once). 

Quote from: karlhenning on February 09, 2013, 06:34:12 AM
I was a while warming to the Fourth myself, Ray. I think my trouble may have been, that I had read so much about the piece (some of it, rather "sexed up," frankly) . . . so when I came to the actual listening, there was (probably an unfair, though unintentional) "Is this it?" factor.

Whereas I came upon with rather minimal foreknowledge, and got completely blown away by it.  At that point, I had heard several, but not all, of DSCH's symphonies--certainly 7, 8, and 11, and possibly 13.   Probably 5, too, although I undoubtedly had heard it on the radio several times before I ever knew much about DSCH--the only Shostakovich that wasn't totally new to me when I bought my first DSCH recording (the "Leningrad").

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 11, 2013, 05:12:03 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 10, 2013, 06:08:41 PM
Whereas I came upon with rather minimal foreknowledge, and got completely blown away by [the Op.43].

I wish I had heard it as a blank slate (which IIRC is how I heard, and got blown away by, the Tenth).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 11, 2013, 08:05:23 AM
Hm, no lack of fuzzy thought "inspired" by the Op.43:

Quote from: A reviewer on AmazonThe Shostakovich 4th Symphony is often called his first Mahlerian symphony because it lacks a musical program and its musical ideas grow to garganutan proportions.

And, drumroll, please:

Quote from: Amazon.com Editorial ReviewThe history of Shostakovich's Symphony No. 4 is now well known. It had been banned in 1935 by Stalin . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on February 11, 2013, 08:07:08 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 11, 2013, 08:05:23 AM
Hm, no lack of fuzzy thought "inspired" by the Op.43:

And, drumroll, please:

Oh boy... and that had been an 'editorial review'? Ah, never mind. Not worth getting all hot and bothered over all the slight nonsense that's out there, even if it comes with pretense to authority.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 11, 2013, 08:11:16 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 11, 2013, 08:07:08 AM
Oh boy... and that had been an 'editorial review'? Ah, never mind. Not worth getting all hot and bothered over all the slight nonsense that's out there, even if it comes with pretense to authority.

Oh, agreed. More amusing than anything . . . The history of Shostakovich's Symphony No. 4 is now well known. But I'm not going to trouble to consult it . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Fafner on February 11, 2013, 08:18:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 11, 2013, 08:11:16 AM
Oh, agreed. More amusing than anything . . . The history of Shostakovich's Symphony No. 4 is now well known. But I'm not going to trouble to consult it . . . .

Mommy, I want to be an Amazon Reviewer when I grow up.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 11, 2013, 10:16:40 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 07, 2013, 08:49:21 AM
I had the extreme pleasure attending a live performance of the DSCH 10th, of our former Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra conductor, Andrei Boreyko, a few years ago.  It was an experience I will treasure forever.

It was an all 'Russian' concert, featuring Prokofiev's Violin Concerto and also made me fall in love with Rimsky-Korsakov's Russian Easter Overture (which is now one of my favourite orchestral pieces by any composer!)  :)

Must have been a wonderful concert to experience, Ray — though I've got to ask: which violin concerto? : )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 11, 2013, 10:18:40 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 07, 2013, 08:43:14 AM
Ray, I'm hoping Sony does a super cheap box set of Ormandy's Shostakovich so I can grab that 4/10 duo, which has been on my want list since I was a college student!

I have an impression (quite possibly mistaken) that I've heard that Fourth — but I've certainly never heard that Tenth.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 11, 2013, 02:28:21 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 11, 2013, 10:16:40 AM
Must have been a wonderful concert to experience, Ray — though I've got to ask: which violin concerto? : )

Prokofiev's Violin Concerto No. 2.  Gwen Hoebig (concertmaster and principal WSO violinist), was the soloist. And she is (and always has been) a fantastic violinist.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 11, 2013, 02:29:40 PM
Nice! That g minor concerto was the first of the two I heard.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 13, 2013, 01:01:07 PM
Quote from: Laurel FayBetween 10 October 1950, when the Prelude in C Major was dated, and 25 February 1951, when the Fugue in D Minor, and the cycle, was completed, Shostakovich's progress was fairly steady, averaging either a prelude or a fugue every three days or so. Nikolayeva reported that Shostakovich wrote out the pieces without corrections and that only once, in the B-flat Minor prelude, he was dissatisfied with what he had begun and replaced it.

From Shostakovich: A Life, pp. 177-178

Quote from: Laurel FayThat the Twenty-four Preludes and Fugues represented a fundamentally different direction in the composer's output from the approved "realistic" line of Song of the Forests, his recent film scores, and even the new choral work, Ten Poems on Texts by Revolutionary Poets, was immediately apparent.  Party-line activists determined that in his cycle of preludes and fugues, Shostakovich had failed to revive the Russian polyphonic tradition by infusing it with contemporary vitality.  Instead, the composer had succumbed to constructivist complexity, gloomy moods, and individualistic aloofness.  In short, the appearance of this polyphonic cycle fueled lingering suspicions "that Shostakovich has not wholly overcome all his previous errors and that some serious contradictions are still impeding his creative rehabilitation."

From Shostakovich: A Life, pp. 178-179
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 14, 2013, 05:22:05 AM
Quote from: Lyubov Rudneva. . . one after another the Union secretaries, all musical functionaries, voiced their disapproval. Among them, alas, was Kabalevsky: "This work is based on a grave miscalculation. It could not have served you, Dmitri Dmitriyevich, for instance as a preparation for The Song of the Forests."

From Elizabeth Wilson, Shostakovich: A Life Remembered (2nd edition), p.286

[Rudneva was a writer, both of fiction, and of critical studies of Mayakovsky and Meyerhold.]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 14, 2013, 12:09:40 PM
Hm. No source referred to (they are CD liner notes, after all), but cellist Aleksandr Ivashkin remarks: Interestingly, Shostakovich did not particularly like Schnittke's music.

FWIW . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on February 14, 2013, 07:19:56 PM
I've always found it a point of interest that, having been denounced for excessive formalism in his music,  DSCH almost immediately (if I remember my dates correctly--or at least soon after),  embarked on a project which is almost the epitome of formalism--a cycle of fugues (with preludes) in all the keys,  according to the circle of fifths.
It's almost as if he was thumbing his nose at the Party apparatus.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Fafner on February 15, 2013, 01:09:25 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 14, 2013, 07:19:56 PM
I've always found it a point of interest that, having been denounced for excessive formalism in his music,  DSCH almost immediately (if I remember my dates correctly--or at least soon after),  embarked on a project which is almost the epitome of formalism--a cycle of fugues (with preludes) in all the keys,  according to the circle of fifths.
It's almost as if he was thumbing his nose at the Party apparatus.

Well, it is a perfectly human reaction.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on February 15, 2013, 01:35:50 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 14, 2013, 07:19:56 PM
I've always found it a point of interest that, having been denounced for excessive formalism in his music,  DSCH almost immediately (if I remember my dates correctly--or at least soon after),  embarked on a project which is almost the epitome of formalism--a cycle of fugues (with preludes) in all the keys,  according to the circle of fifths.
It's almost as if he was thumbing his nose at the Party apparatus.

Which attack are you referring to? The ones following Lady Macbeth?

Because the Op. 34 Preludes came before that... and the 24 Preludes and Fugues Op. 87 almost twenty (ok, 15) years later.

Also: "Formalism" in Soviet art was as much (much more) a political term, as (than) it was an aesthetic one... The motivation for P&F is well known (Leipzig/Nikolayeva); whether thumbing his nose at the Party played part of it, though... That seems a rather liberal guess.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on February 15, 2013, 12:56:22 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 15, 2013, 01:35:50 AM
Which attack are you referring to? The ones following Lady Macbeth?

Because the Op. 34 Preludes came before that... and the 24 Preludes and Fugues Op. 87 almost twenty (ok, 15) years later.

Also: "Formalism" in Soviet art was as much (much more) a political term, as (than) it was an aesthetic one... The motivation for P&F is well known (Leipzig/Nikolayeva); whether thumbing his nose at the Party played part of it, though... That seems a rather liberal guess.

I was thinking of the Zhdanov era (1948/49)--as it turns out, two years before Op. 87--and DSCH's being forced to troop to New York and Germany as a cultural ambassador on behalf of Stalin, from which resulted the Leipzig/Nikolayeva:  Op. 87 itself  was composed very close in time to The Song of the Forests.

Nor does my suggestion mean that Op. 87 wasn't prompted by that Leipzig competition:  but having found a suitable vehicle,  I wouldn't be surprised  if the knowledge that the whole concept was rather unsocialistically unrealistic gave an extra zing in the composer's mind, although for obvious reasons he could never admit it.  But Op. 87 was not well received by the official apparatus, as the quotes posted here in the last few days  make clear.  This is, after all,  the composer who wrote a song cycle "From Jewish Poetry" during the peak of Stalin's anti-Semitism--although even that one he was forced to pad with Good Soviet Songs and keep in the drawer for a while before he felt safe in publishing it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on February 15, 2013, 05:21:51 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 15, 2013, 01:34:21 PM
I didn't wish to intimate that DSCH didn't compose in direct political/emotional response to his surroundings... nor that the P&F are exempt from that... only that I have never thought of the latter in that light and that I'd also be weary of interpreting everything DSCH did in the anti-regime light; I see his gray-on-gray complexity in distinct contrast to the US- and Western preference (Volkov-perpetrated) to see a resistance movement to Stalin et al. hiding in every slow movement he ever composed.

If Shostakovich weren't complex, he wouldn't have been such a great composer.

And as Freud might say, sometimes a slow movement is a slow movement.

But I do find it curious, at least, that coming from a period when he was trying to get out from the ideological charge of "formalism"--whatever precisely that term was supposed to mean--he produced a work which is blatantly full of formalism--fugues accompanied by preludes, proceeding through the keys at a set interval--in his outer structure, overtly inspired by a most bourgeois court and church composer.     A lesser man might produce a series of Songs of the Forest, eager to show he was a good servant of the people....

Or perhaps DSCH was simply trying to prove to himself what he was capable of, even if the apparatchiks didn't want to hear it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 15, 2013, 05:22:39 PM
No need to get all... intestinal....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 16, 2013, 07:10:23 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 12, 2012, 03:53:08 AM

Quote from: eyeresist on July 11, 2012, 05:55:42 PM
Regarding the commissions, as I recall from the Wilson book, one of the remarkable things about the 3rd is that it was NOT commissioned but written "on spec". In late 20s Russia it was still possible for a young Shostakovich to buy into the potential of communism for positive social change.

Thanks for reminding me to go back to sources! Meanwhile . . . his having written it "on spec" is a point which, of itself, does not indicate what the composer may or may not "buy into";  I seem to remember it being a matter of plying the network, so to say.  Need to scare up the Fay!

So, I finally re-consult the Fay viz. the Third.  A very interesting brace of pages to read, to be sure. Three take-aways right off:

1. Shostakovich indicated that it was intended to form the second part, or movement — after the Dedication to October — of a projected cycle of symphonic compositions dedicated to the revolutionary calendar.

2. Shostakovich submitted the Third as part of his graduate student requirements (hardly "on spec").

3. The instrumental part of the symphony was completed before the text was written.

And here, something of (practically purely) musical interest:


Quote from: Laurel E. FayAt the time he was composing his Third Symphony, Shostakovich confided in Shebalin that he was intrigued by the notion of a symphony in which not a single theme is repeated. It was a revealing confession. For all the surfeit of melodic material in this symphony, there is virtually no repetition of themes.

Even without an explicit program, Soviet listeners found the idiom of the First of May Symphony immediately accessible, its topical allusions less abstract than those of To October. The music relies on familiar inflections from the contemporary urban musical soundscape and public ritual, from mass and workers' songs and pioneer marches to te uplifting strains of brass instruments, oratorical flourishes, and massed choral perorations. Also readily apparent are the bonds with Shostakovich's music of the period for film, theater, and music hall. With only minor changes, he would soon appropriate the seven-measure coda of the First of May Symphony to serve double-duty as the coda to the finale of the music to the film Golden Mountains (as in the Suite, op. 30a).

From Shostakovich: A Life, pp. 52-53

Of course, the matter of first interest which strikes me is how decades later, this "musical game" which Shostakovich confesses to Shebalin (a fellow composer, pedagogue & administrator, who would teach at, and yet later serve as director of, the Conservatory in Moscow) might be bandied about as a morbid, self-centered, Formalist, anti-People tendency . . . and yet, the musical result was popularly accessible.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 17, 2013, 04:28:35 AM
December 10, 2012 to February 17, 2013

I have now completed my Shostakovich string quartets and symphonies listening binge!  A thrilling, incredible ride!  :)

Finishing off with my favourite recording of my favourite Shostakovich symphony:

Symphony No. 10

Petrenko/RLPO
Naxos
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 17, 2013, 07:08:43 AM
Outstanding, Ray!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 20, 2013, 07:45:53 AM
The unexpected bonus from the Caetani recording of the Op.43 is a fragment, five and a half minutes long, towards the end of which there appears an earlier version of the trombone unison passage in the third movement (in curious timing, referred to here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,576.msg698481.html#msg698481)).  [The notes to the CD are a little over-wrought.]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on March 02, 2013, 05:53:15 PM
I was reading a negative review of the Rostropovich/LSO Eleventh Symphony CD and here was a discussion about slower tempos vs faster ones.  For my money, I love the tempo that Rostropovich takes in the first movement.  Some slow tempos at times seem to drag on, but I thought it was spot on and did a great job at capturing the mood better than a faster tempo would go..

Would love to hear other thoughts.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Fafner on March 05, 2013, 07:26:09 AM
I started my Russian (and Soviet) Symphony March Madness with another Shostakovich (thus keeping the January thing alive...)

Ančerl's 1 & 5 is a great recording,  the interpretation a little bit on the light side. The sound is amazing, considering these are recordings from the early 60's.

I suppose I could join Shostakovich January, WTH February and Russian March into one big challenge and finally listen to No. 14 properly. It is my least favourite of all Shostakovich's symphonies (well, after 2 & 3). (And it is not really a symphony anyway, but rather a song cycle. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 05, 2013, 11:52:54 AM
Not sure how I might help, but FWIW I've always liked the Fourteenth. Sure, it's really a song cycle, and the accompaniment is only strings & percussion, but . . . .

; )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 05, 2013, 11:58:16 AM
I'll add another vote to No.14, devastatingly moody, but completely unique, a real one-of-a-kind from DSCH
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on March 05, 2013, 01:25:13 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 05, 2013, 11:58:16 AM
I'll add another vote to No.14, devastatingly moody, but completely unique, a real one-of-a-kind from DSCH.
+1
A great piece, whatever the name.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 06, 2013, 04:40:35 AM
Excellent liner notes to the Pacifica Quartet Shostakovich-plus volumes, BTW. (Though I did note an it's where its was wanted . . . the grammar geek in me won't quit . . . .)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 06, 2013, 04:42:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 06, 2013, 04:40:35 AM
Excellent liner notes to the Pacifica Quartet Shostakovich-plus volumes, BTW. (Though I did note an it's where its was wanted . . . the grammar geek in me won't quit . . . .)

How many DSCH SQ sets does that make, now Karl?  :)  4?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 06, 2013, 04:43:46 AM
Well, the Pacifica is still a set-in-progress, Ray . . . and I've yet to listen to the two volumes which landed yesterday : )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 06, 2013, 04:45:59 AM
Oh, and I didn't answer the question ; )

. . . when the Pacifica set is complete, it will be my fifth, following the Borodins, Emersons, Fitzwilliams & Mandelrings.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 06, 2013, 05:12:17 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 06, 2013, 04:45:59 AM
Oh, and I didn't answer the question ; )

. . . when the Pacifica set is complete, it will be my fifth, following the Borodins, Emersons, Fitzwilliams & Mandelrings.

Tres bien, Karl!  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 06, 2013, 05:13:15 AM
Aye, a fine crop, if I do say so, myself.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 06, 2013, 06:14:42 AM
Hear, hear, Anton'!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on March 06, 2013, 06:10:32 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 06, 2013, 04:45:59 AM
Oh, and I didn't answer the question ; )

. . . when the Pacifica set is complete, it will be my fifth, following the Borodins, Emersons, Fitzwilliams & Mandelrings.

Almost the same as mine, except I also have the Shostakovich Quartet (which, on reflection, is not necessary for anyone who has the others--but if I were to cull any (which I don't intend to) it would be the Fitzwilliams that would go, as the set that impressed me least).


BTW, Ray, if you posted the news, I missed it--did your set of the Borodins (La Vache & Vader) ever actually arrive?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 06, 2013, 06:45:27 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 06, 2013, 06:10:32 PM
Almost the same as mine, except I also have the Shostakovich Quartet (which, on reflection, is not necessary for anyone who has the others--but if I were to cull any (which I don't intend to) it would be the Fitzwilliams that would go, as the set that impressed me least).


BTW, Ray, if you posted the news, I missed it--did your set of the Borodins (La Vache & Vader) ever actually arrive?

Hi Jeffrey,

Alas, it never did arrive. However, I reordered it from Amazon 3rd party marketplace.  La vache sacree devrait etre dans mes mains par le debut d'avril! 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on March 06, 2013, 07:19:17 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 06, 2013, 06:45:27 PM
Hi Jeffrey,

Alas, it never did arrive. However, I reordered it from Amazon 3rd party marketplace.  La vache sacree devrait etre dans mes mains par le debut d'avril!

Then I foresee April being Russian Chamber Music Madness Month.....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: huntsman on March 07, 2013, 12:02:40 PM
Could anyone recommend an album or box set from Shostakovitch to me please?

I'd hoped that this thread would give clarity, but I'm more confused than ever...!

If possible I would prefer to avoid piano concertos.  :-X
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: John Copeland on March 07, 2013, 12:07:42 PM
Quote from: huntsman on March 07, 2013, 12:02:40 PM
Could anyone recommend an album or box set from Shostakovitch to me please?
I'd hoped that this thread would give clarity, but I'm more confused than ever...!
If possible I would prefer to avoid piano concertos.  :-X

This is a bargain box - my favourite Shosty interpreter - though there are one or two in GMG that would recommend the Haitink with the Concertgebouw.  But this is not only inexpensive, it is fabulous.   :)

[asin]B00005UW2B[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 07, 2013, 12:52:29 PM
Well, I am one who thinks better of Haitink than of Barshai . . . but the Barshai is a good box, and a sound recommendation, nevertheless.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 07, 2013, 01:31:50 PM
Quote from: Scots John on March 07, 2013, 12:07:42 PM
This is a bargain box - my favourite Shosty interpreter - though there are one or two in GMG that would recommend the Haitink with the Concertgebouw.  But this is not only inexpensive, it is fabulous.   :)

[asin]B00005UW2B[/asin]

+1 John!  I couldn't agree more.  It is bloody fantastic, and a great price!  :)

Haitink/Concertgebouw's 8th is amazing, I will say that!!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on March 07, 2013, 02:04:03 PM
Quote from: huntsman on March 07, 2013, 12:02:40 PM
Could anyone recommend an album or box set from Shostakovitch to me please?

I'd hoped that this thread would give clarity, but I'm more confused than ever...!

If possible I would prefer to avoid piano concertos.  :-X

I love the Barshai symphony box, too... but think that might be a bit of overkill, for a start.

A couple at a time, I'd say. Among the most easily accessible I'd say are 5, 7, 9 (in its kinky little ways), 11. Dark horse favorites: 15 & 4. Advanced delights of darkness: 8 & 13.

Not a bad way to start would for example be this one:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001IRFVPI.01.L.jpg)
D.Schostakovich, Sy. 5 & 10,
S.Skrowaczewski / Hallé Orchestra
Hallé Live (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001IRFVPI/nectarandambr-20)

Or, if your attitude is "Hi-Fi--Shmi-Fi", this one:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004YL72.01.L.jpg)
D.Schostakovich, Sy. 9
(+ 'faked' Mravinsky 5th),
Z.Kosler/ Czech PO
Chant du Monde (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004YL72/nectarandambr-20)

My favorite way of finding into DSCH -- by a mile -- is his set of Preludes & Fugues for piano. Like DSCH & Bach having a conversation over 250 years. More here: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/01/dip-your-ears-no-22.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/01/dip-your-ears-no-22.html)

Now we need to get some string quartets into your hands... and have just the ticket in this twofer!

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B009AXXGKO.01.L.jpg)
DSCH, Quartets 1,4,6,8,9,11,
Jerusalem Quartet
Harmonia Mundi (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B009AXXGKO/nectarandambr-20)
More on that here: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-80.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-80.html)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on March 07, 2013, 05:42:25 PM
Quote from: huntsman on March 07, 2013, 12:02:40 PM
Could anyone recommend an album or box set from Shostakovitch to me please?

I'd hoped that this thread would give clarity, but I'm more confused than ever...!

If possible I would prefer to avoid piano concertos.  :-X

Get Haitink's Decca set of Shostakovich's symphonies. This is probably the most consistent set out there IMHO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: huntsman on March 08, 2013, 01:03:35 PM
Good info - thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 21, 2013, 02:59:10 PM
Jeffrey and Karl will know what I'm talking about.

Un annoncement très important:  Mes vaches sont arrives, enfin!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 21, 2013, 04:41:49 PM
The cows have come home!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 21, 2013, 04:44:15 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 21, 2013, 04:41:49 PM
The cows have come home!

Indeed.  Finalement, mon ami.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Octave on March 21, 2013, 05:02:57 PM
Quote from: huntsman on March 07, 2013, 12:02:40 PM
I'd hoped that this thread would give clarity, but I'm more confused than ever...!

I can relate.  Don't forget that the Barshai is included in the Brilliant Shost "complete works" megabox, just in case there's any possibility that you might want that megalith at some point.  (I decided against it because I own the Barshai and some other/different recordings of non-symphonic works, and the megabrilliant edition's contents were mostly not necessarily things I was craving.)   I remember the Haitink set as having better sound, but I don't own it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on March 21, 2013, 07:38:20 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 21, 2013, 02:59:10 PM
Jeffrey and Karl will know what I'm talking about.

Un annoncement très important:  Mes vaches sont arrives, enfin!

Tres excellente! 

I might mention, for the benefit of those who do not have the cows,  they're on sale as part of Prestoclassic's Melodiya offer for a very good price--I think about fifteen or more dollars cheaper than what I paid to Amazon France, and thought at the time I was getting a good deal.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on March 21, 2013, 07:41:27 PM
Quote from: Octave on March 21, 2013, 05:02:57 PM
I can relate.  Don't forget that the Barshai is included in the Brilliant Shost "complete works" megabox, just in case there's any possibility that you might want that megalith at some point.  (I decided against it because I own the Barshai and other recordings of non-symphonic works, and the megabrilliant edition's contents were mostly not necessarily things I was craving.)   I remember the Haitink set as having better sound, but I don't own it.

As I've pointed out before, it's also part of Brilliant's 100 CD Symphonies box (along with Fischer's Haydn, Goodman's Schubert, and a number of other nice symphonic cycles)--if you want to go with that megalith instead of the Shostakovich megalith.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 23, 2013, 06:56:49 PM
Have over the last 3 days gone over the entire Shostakovich - Borodin SQ cycle (including the two pieces for Octet and the Piano Quintet), and overall, my impressions are very, very favourable.

I'm so happy I got it, and it was a very excrutiating long wait for these to arrive, but it was more than worth it!

[asin]B000HXE5BK[/asin]

I cannot chose at this point, which set I prefer.  It will take multiple listens of each set again (Borodin, Eder and Fitzwilliam) to determine that, and then again, maybe there never will be a clear cut 'preference' for me, which suits me fine.

Let me just say, I'm very happy to have all 3 sets indeed, and they are all unique and special in their own ways, just like the works themselves are!  :) 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Octave on March 23, 2013, 08:58:35 PM
I got that Borodin quartets set very recently as well, CN, and I'm so glad I did.  Even just the Piano Quintet with Sviatoslav Richter is itself worth the price of admission.  I was lucky to find a really good price via Amazon MP-USA, but lately for the most part, they've been charging a lot for it.  Anyone interested should probably take advantage of that Presto Melodiya sale.  </shill>
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Octave on March 24, 2013, 08:01:26 AM
A few questions, and apologies, still, for not having gone through every page of the thread carefully yet....it's daunting!  It's my project for next week.  In the meantime, for those with idle hands and febrile minds....

1A. I am especially interested in key recordings of symphonies 4, 7, 8, 10, and 15.  Plenty of suggestions is fine, but really just a couple max per symphony would be ideal.  So far I am working with the Barshai cycle, the Janson cycle very soon, and the Kondrashin possibly, semi-soon.  I know Mravinsky's famous live London 8th.  I might also know that Sanderling semi-cycle by the end of summer.

1B. I am interested in that Bernstein/CSO #7 (DG), which I have seen praised by a few people including MI; PerfectWagnerite praise it intensely at one point, and this was met with some skepticism.  Curious about some other perspectives on the Leningrad (#7) and also idly curious about: if Bernstein doesn't do it for you, how does your preferred alternative or two succeed in contrast?

1C. Really interested in #15 after listening to it again.  I have a few different accounts of Sanderling's godhead account with Cleveland (Erato).  The only disc I see of this is a single, and is OOP except for $17 ArkivCD i.e. CDR i.e. nope.  Just curious if there's another edition I am missing; the ArkivCD's existence says, "Haha, nope."  There was praise for Maxim SCH's earlier/Russian account (premier?) of this, but I understood that this never made it to CD.  I intend to track it down 'by other means' i.e. war.

[I think the comments I'm referring to were actually in the "Shostakovich symphonies - cycles and otherwise" thread.  Maybe I should be asking this question there?  I will ask it here.]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Octave on March 24, 2013, 08:20:56 AM
Also interested in owning a disc with the composer's own performance of his Piano Trio #2 op. 67 w/Oistrakh and Sadlo.  Curious about the best option for sound, filler, price.  The main contender is this:

[asin]B000005FWF[/asin]
from Doremi's Oistrakh series, though I am not sure I'm excited about the filler.

also, barely, this one:
[asin]B0034RJD7C[/asin]
from Multisonic.  Almost gone and a bit expensive, but some interesting mainstream filler with performances I've heard good things about (w/o DSCH, iirc).

also one from Yedang Classics w/that trio recording plus w/DSCH playing other things of his; that's interesting.  I would definitely like to know how the sound and performances are on that one.

Plus an mp3-only download that used to be (?) a CD from Symposium, called FIRST RECORDINGS, with some Preludes, String Quartet #3 (Beethoven Quartet), etc; but I am not an mp3 fan.

Also there's a newer disc (release date spring 2012) with the same contents as the Yedang (Piano Concertos 1 & 2, Concertino, Trio #2, all w/DSCH playing, afaik) that claims to be "remastered"....but it's from a company called "Entertainment Group International" [International!] and is a burn-to-order CDR only, with an mp3 download option.
It's here: ASIN: B007WVL7R0
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: trung224 on March 24, 2013, 02:52:22 PM
Quote from: Octave on March 24, 2013, 08:01:26 AM

1A. I am especially interested in key recordings of symphonies 4, 7, 8, 10, and 15.  Plenty of suggestions is fine, but really just a couple max per symphony would be ideal.  So far I am working with the Barshai cycle, the Janson cycle very soon, and the Kondrashin possibly, semi-soon.  I know Mravinsky's famous live London 8th.  I might also know that Sanderling semi-cycle by the end of summer.

1B. I am interested in that Bernstein/CSO #7 (DG), which I have seen praised by a few people including MI; PerfectWagnerite praise it intensely at one point, and this was met with some skepticism.  Curious about some other perspectives on the Leningrad (#7) and also idly curious about: if Bernstein doesn't do it for you, how does your preferred alternative or two succeed in contrast?

As the whole, Kondrashin cycle is IMHO the most "authentic" cycle, intense, Soviet-like performances. For the budget price, Barshai cycle is also consistent and interesting. Many people love Haitink and Jansons, but I don't really get into their understated interpretation. For modern recordings, I give a nod to Petrenko on Naxos.
   #4: Apart from Kondrashin and Barshai, you should check Rozhdestcensky on Brilliant Classics and Gergiev on Decca
   #5: there are two school of interpretation. The first one is from the first generation of Western conductors, brilliant and positive ending, in the recordings from Bernstein, Stokowski and Silvestri. The second one is from Soviet conductors (not  Russian conductors now), they performed Shostakovich 5 with the permissive mood with very despair ending, such as Mravinsky (on Teldec for the best sound), Kondrashin, Sanderling (Berlin Classics) and Rostropovich (DG). Most of conductors in modern days fall somewhere in between.
   #7: The Seventh is blessed with so many good choices, but for me Bernstein on DG, Mravinsky (in mono sound), Gergiev, Bychkov and Jansons (on RCO live, not his early account on EMI) is great.
   #8: My favorite is Mravinsky (Both studio in good sound and live performance on BBC legends), Kondrashin, Svetlanov (BBC Legends), Sanderling (Berlin Classics), Previn (EMI), Petrenko (Naxos). Haitink's account is also very good if you want to hear a neutral performance
   #10: For Western approach, Karajan, Mitropoulos and Shipway reigned supreme, but i prefer more Russian sound from Mravinsky, Sanderling. There is a Stokowski's live performance on Chicago Symphony Orchestra Anniversary box, which was hailed by so many people but I don't have the chance to hear.
   
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on March 24, 2013, 03:37:54 PM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mgXFBjJD_tk/USFz_ycNuyI/AAAAAAAAGKY/N40rvoinuV8/s1600/Shostakovich_old3_laurson_600.jpg)
Quote from: Octave on March 24, 2013, 08:01:26 AM
A few questions, and apologies, still, for not having gone through every page of the thread carefully yet....it's daunting!  It's my project for next week.  In the meantime, for those with idle hands and febrile minds....

1A. I am especially interested in key recordings of symphonies 4, 7, 8, 10, and 15.  Plenty of suggestions is fine, but really just a couple max per symphony would be ideal.  So far I am working with the Barshai cycle, the Janson cycle very soon, and the Kondrashin possibly, semi-soon.  I know Mravinsky's famous live London 8th.  I might also know that Sanderling semi-cycle by the end of summer.

1C. Really interested in #15 after listening to it again.  I have a few different accounts of Sanderling's godhead account with Cleveland (Erato).  The only disc I see of this is a single, and is OOP except for $17 ArkivCD i.e. CDR i.e. nope.  Just curious if there's another edition I am missing; the ArkivCD's existence says, "Haha, nope."  There was praise for Maxim SCH's earlier/Russian account (premier?) of this, but I understood that this never made it to CD.  I intend to track it down 'by other means' i.e. war.

Nº 4 : Jansons / BRSO
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html)

Nº 15 : Kondrashin / Dresden Staatskapelle
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/dip-your-ears-no-88.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/dip-your-ears-no-88.html)

Nº 8 : Jansons / Pittsburgh
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/07/shostakovich-8th-with-rostropovich-on.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/07/shostakovich-8th-with-rostropovich-on.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/01/shostakovichs-eighth-symphony.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/01/shostakovichs-eighth-symphony.html) ("Wigglesworth vs. Gergiev")
I've not made my peace with this work yet, which is my loss. If I had, I would probably appreciate Rostropovich's performance more. So my recommendation shouldn't be taken at full value here.

For the 10th I have no recommendation at all, though I could certainly run down the lust of the usual and pseudo-unusual candidates, with Karajan, Sanderling, Mravinsky, and the everyone-knows-it-but-it's-still-a-black-horse Shipway. Add Litton to that list, as far as I am concerned.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Octave on March 25, 2013, 02:54:41 AM
Thanks very much trung and JFL for the Haitink/LIED help!  I might be more inclined towards that symphonies box than I thought.  *sigh*  It does not end.

OT aside:
Do we have a dedicated thread for discussion of "orchestral songs" compositions and recordings?  If not, where would such a thread best be started?  Maybe it's not distinct enough as a genre to warrant its own thread, but I'd like to explore what available, I've noticed I keep returning to the 'greatest several hits' of the genre, so I think there might be something there that is not only the work of a certain few composers.  Of course, opera semi-qualifies, so maybe that's what I should focus on.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on March 25, 2013, 03:10:34 AM
Quote from: Octave on March 25, 2013, 02:54:41 AM

OT aside:
Do we have a dedicated thread for discussion of "orchestral songs" compositions and recordings?  ... I think there might be something there that is not only the work of a certain few composers.  Of course, opera semi-qualifies, so maybe that's what I should focus on.

Don't know about a dedicated thread... but make your first stop this, if you haven't already: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/04/dip-your-ears-no-56.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/04/dip-your-ears-no-56.html)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 25, 2013, 03:13:17 AM
Quote from: Octave on March 24, 2013, 08:01:26 AM

1C. Really interested in #15 after listening to it again.  I have a few different accounts of Sanderling's godhead account with Cleveland (Erato).  The only disc I see of this is a single, and is OOP except for $17 ArkivCD i.e. CDR i.e. nope.  Just curious if there's another edition I am missing

It was available cheaply on Elatus. Seems to be oop now. Sorry.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/july2010/shosta15sand.jpg)

Edit: Used copies available from various Amazons...but not cheaply.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on March 25, 2013, 05:04:36 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 25, 2013, 03:13:17 AM
It was available cheaply on Elatus. Seems to be oop now. Sorry.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/july2010/shosta15sand.jpg)
Edit: Used copies available from various Amazons...but not cheaply.
Sarge

The three least expensive used/3rd party options as of now are:

Erato, .com, ~$19 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009JNB/goodmusicguide-20) used & 3rd Party

Elatus, .com, ~$23 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000088DTI/goodmusicguide-20) used

Erato, .de, ~EUR 22 (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009JNB/goodmusicguide-21) used
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 25, 2013, 06:20:40 AM
Quote from: Octave on March 25, 2013, 02:54:41 AM
OT aside:
Do we have a dedicated thread for discussion of "orchestral songs" compositions and recordings? 

Octave, it's not exactly what you're asking for but this thread may come in handy: the  20th Century Choral thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10121.0.html).



Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2013, 03:52:17 AM
Quote from: Octave on March 24, 2013, 08:01:26 AM
1A. I am especially interested in key recordings of symphonies 4, 7, 8, 10, and 15.  Plenty of suggestions is fine, but really just a couple max per symphony would be ideal.  So far I am working with the Barshai cycle, the Janson cycle very soon, and the Kondrashin possibly, semi-soon.

I've developed something of an obsession with the Fourth over the years (so prepare your grain of salt!)

Here's (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,576.msg644614.html#msg644614) one post.

Oh, and consider Ančerl & the Czech Phil for the Op.93 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,576.msg645254.html#msg645254).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Daverz on March 26, 2013, 09:31:28 AM
I've been thinking of getting the Rostropovich symphony set just for the 14th alone.  Are any of the other performances in this box worthwhile?

[asin]B000NJM1H8[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2013, 09:57:00 AM
Quote from: Daverz on March 26, 2013, 09:31:28 AM
I've been thinking of getting the Rostropovich symphony set just for the 14th alone.

Who are the singers?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on March 26, 2013, 09:59:29 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 26, 2013, 09:57:00 AM
Who are the singers?
From the Amazon review:
QuoteThe singers are Vishnevskaya and Reshetin in the 14th
Interesting..
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2013, 10:04:19 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2013, 12:38:58 PM
Really enjoying the Pacifica Quartet's cycle-in-progress. Impatient, in fact, for the final instalment.

Brian, any word, there?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 26, 2013, 01:48:29 PM
Quote from: Daverz on March 26, 2013, 09:31:28 AM
I've been thinking of getting the Rostropovich symphony set just for the 14th alone.  Are any of the other performances in this box worthwhile?

[asin]B000NJM1H8[/asin]

1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (that NSO 5th one of my two favorites along with Lenny's live-in-Tokyo), 8, 9 and 14 are terrific and worth the price of the box. My blind spots are 7 and 10; Slava, like every other conductor, didn't convince me. I prefer his LSO Live 11. 6 and 15 I thought were duds.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 27, 2013, 03:53:53 PM
For at least two or three years, I had Beethoven and Brahms as my absolute favourite co-composers.  Side-by-side, equal.

I am now safely adding *Shostakovich to that list, officially.  ;D  They now form ChamberNut's Triumvirate  8)

*It should be noted that this is the 4th straight month that Shostakovich has been my most listened to composer.  Just sayin'.  He's quite good!  ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 27, 2013, 03:55:30 PM
Huzzah, Ray!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 27, 2013, 03:58:01 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 27, 2013, 03:55:30 PM
Huzzah, Ray!

It's now BBS, for me!  ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on March 31, 2013, 08:51:16 PM
May release

(http://cdn.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.573057.gif)

Symphony No. 7 in C major, Op. 60, "Leningrad"
1.         I. Allegretto 00:28:32
2.         II. Moderato (poco allegretto) 00:12:58
3.         III. Adagio 00:18:44
4.         IV. Allegro non troppo 00:19:01
      
Total Playing Time: 01:19:15
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on March 31, 2013, 08:52:37 PM
Quote from: Brian on March 31, 2013, 08:51:16 PM
May release

(http://cdn.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.573057.gif)

Symphony No. 7 in C major, Op. 60, "Leningrad"
1.         I. Allegretto 00:28:32
2.         II. Moderato (poco allegretto) 00:12:58
3.         III. Adagio 00:18:44
4.         IV. Allegro non troppo 00:19:01
      
Total Playing Time: 01:19:15

About time!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Octave on April 03, 2013, 09:18:33 PM
Late thanks to Sarge, JFL, DD et al for additional answers to my Shost and "orchestral songs" questions; sorry I spaced out on thanking you earlier.

re: the SEVEN ROMANCES ON POEMS OF ALEXANDER BLOK, op. 127:
Quote from: Brewski on April 03, 2013, 10:53:01 AM
[asin]B000BMGFBK[/asin]
Quote from: karlhenning on April 03, 2013, 11:07:23 AM
Don't neglect the Blok Romances, Bruce!
Quote from: karlhenning on July 13, 2012, 08:30:46 AM
The Blok Romances for soprano and piano trio are obligatory Shostakovich! Top-shelf music plus a Silver Age Russian poet.

What are the best recordings of this piece (Blok Romances)?  Earlier in the thread, there was a compliment for the one included in the Decca LADY MACBETH AND SONGS box (now apparently OOP and pretty expensive EDIT: no, I see that it's available at Arkiv for $40, so I wasn't looking hard enough...however, I hesitate to buy the thing if the MACBETH is not really up to snuff....), and the version therein was described as:
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 13, 2012, 08:23:56 AM
As for this box [mentioned above], since you already have 40% of it--I'd suggest looking for the first two CDs as individual items, and alternate versions of the songs with piano--although the 7 Romances on Poems of A. Blok (which has a vocalist and chamber ensemble) has a good performance on that CD.   It's the DFD that's the main stumbling block.

When Jeffrey says "chamber ensemble", is this a different version of the Blok Romances than for voice and piano trio?  (The Arkiv listing seems to say "no", if the Elisabeth Söderström recording is the only one in the box.)  Either way, in whatever version, I'd like to make sure I get a really good recording.  The only reason I'm not just snapping up the BAT/Warner shown at the top of the post is because I already have their smokin' 1974 recording of the Trio #2, and I guess I'd just as soon get the Blok pieces on a disc/set with songs or other pieces I haven't yet heard.  Unless of course that Warner disc is the way to go....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on April 04, 2013, 01:48:57 AM
The Warner is fine, by all means, but the classic & standard (for a good reason in this case) is Vishnevskaya/Rostropovich et al. on EMI (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001HAHQO/goodmusicguide-20)... the artists for whom (and upon whose request) the Romances were written.



I also very much like the release with Nadja Smirnova (Schoonderwoerd, Mourja, Hallynck; "Krokodil", Alpha) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001VG3EK/goodmusicguide-20)

Modern sound and very neat interpretation (in both senses of the word) comes from the final disc of the Florestan Trio with Susan Gritton (Hyperion) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004S7ZYUW/goodmusicguide-20)... certainly less authentic than Vishnevskaya, but decidedly more beautiful.

The others I know and have (Naef w/Eschenbach; Soederstrom/Fitzwilliams/Ashk.) do not seem to have left enough of an impression for comment off the top of my head (mustn't have been bad, then, at least--because that I would remember.  ;))

Vishnevskaya also sings in a live recording with Britten and Rostropovich at Aldeburgh (Decca) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TEUW/goodmusicguide-20) - but that I haven't heard.

And then there's a recording with Weinberg on the piano somewhere... and Oistrakh and Slava and Vishnevskaya. And I think I have it somewhere, too, in one of its many but obscure issues. Sound issues a-plenty, but a must for the Weinberg aficionado.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Octave on April 04, 2013, 02:08:09 AM
Many thanks, Jens.  I will cross my fingers for a real copy of the Vishnevskaya/EMI, and that Alpha looks really neat as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on April 04, 2013, 02:19:45 AM
Quote from: Octave on April 04, 2013, 02:08:09 AM
Many thanks, Jens.  I will cross my fingers for a real copy of the Vishnevskaya/EMI, and that Alpha looks really neat as well.

You should be easily able to track down a copy (real, if used). It has been out in at least five different versions on EMI, not just the GRAC version I linked to (the most recent, perhaps), but also GROC and in a Vishnevskaya-CD... (Galina Vishnevskaya: Songs & Opera Arias -- which is also out of print, I just realize)

Also: here's instance of the piece with Weinberg's pianism (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002DRD5A/goodmusicguide-20). (Or on RCA (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000007RSR/goodmusicguide-20))

Her Lady Macbeth recording with her hubby (perhaps Rostropovich's greatest best conducting on record is a rightful classic. At least that's already been re-issued.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on April 04, 2013, 03:19:11 AM
The Blok Romances I listen to most frequently: Maria Aszodi and the Bartos Trio (http://www.amazon.com/Piano-Trios-Seven-Songs-Shostakovich/dp/B00004R7JR/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1365074244&sr=1-1&keywords=shostakovich+Maria+Aszodi+Bartos)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Octave on April 04, 2013, 03:35:13 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 04, 2013, 02:19:45 AM
Also: here's instance of the piece with Weinberg's pianism (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002DRD5A/goodmusicguide-20). (Or on RCA (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000007RSR/goodmusicguide-20))

The first of your links doesn't seem to include Weinberg, it's this Yedang issue:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41W40ZDV95L.jpg)

Do you know that (Yedang) disc?  I'm kind of interested in the two cello concertos conducted by Oistrakh, but I'm not sure if they'd be more than curiosities.
Also, your second link above seems to be a Melodiya disc, not RCA.  (Maybe there is a secret collusion I don't know about?)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on April 04, 2013, 07:07:17 AM
Quote from: Octave on April 04, 2013, 03:35:13 AM
The first of your links doesn't seem to include Weinberg, it's this Yedang issue:

Do you know that (Yedang) disc?  I'm kind of interested in the two cello concertos conducted by Oistrakh, but I'm not sure if they'd be more than curiosities.
Also, your second link above seems to be a Melodiya disc, not RCA.  (Maybe there is a secret collusion I don't know about?)

You must look more carefully.  ;) The Yedang issue is one of many that includes Weinberg as the pianist in the Blok Romances.  I have the recording in a "Russia Disk" version

The second is the BMG-issue of a Melodiya disc (BMG => RCA, around that time, which is why I conflate them in my mind)... and yes, they colluded... for example the Borodin/DSCH SQ4t set was long only available in the BMG-version in the West.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51j80YHIE2L._SX300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Octave on April 04, 2013, 07:13:35 AM
I'm assuming Weinberg's name was omitted from the cover of that Yedang album, because for "Satires" and the "Romances" it seems to say, "Piano - Mstislav Rostropovich".  A misprint, perhaps.
But yes yes, there's a piano trio for that piece, like a piano trio with a cello.  Yes yes yes my pretties, it's caffeine
:blank:

But do you rate those cello concertos performances at all?  You are generally kind of down on Slava in DSCH, aren't you?  Or is that mainly as a conductor of the symphonies, not as a performer and w/LADY MACBETH?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on April 04, 2013, 08:10:49 AM
Quote from: Octave on April 04, 2013, 07:13:35 AM
But do you rate those cello concertos performances at all?  You are generally kind of down on Slava in DSCH, aren't you?  Or is that mainly as a conductor of the symphonies, not as a performer and w/LADY MACBETH?

No... as a cellist, he was phenomenal. I think his Bach sucks, mind you, all demure and boring, but most everything else is very good. Too much narcissism/ego, often (except, strangely, in the Bach), but that's not always a bad thing.

Yes, it's as a conductor I'm not hot on Rostropovich, for the simple reason that he wasn't a good conductor. But that's not to say that he couldn't achieve good results, as he did on several occasions. Here's what I think of his output, basically: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-in-memoriam-mstislav.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-in-memoriam-mstislav.html) (Formerly WETA)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 03, 2013, 10:41:40 AM
Give us a shout when the Petrenko Fourth is available this side of the pond.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2013, 07:21:39 AM
Cross-post

Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2013, 05:46:51 AM
Дмитри Дмитриевич [ Dmitri Dmitriyevich (Shostakovich) ]
Музыка из фильма «Подруги», соч. 41a [ Music for The Girlfriends, Opus 41a ]
Polish National Radio Symphony
Mark Fitz-Gerald


[asin]B0020LSWXE[/asin]

Wow.

The very last number in the film suite, Andrea's closing words, Adagio, is understandably tender.  The wow factor, though, is that it is an idea which is a massive, fff tutti in the middle of the first movement of the Fourth Symphony (rehearsal mark [47]).  (Later in that symphony movement, it morphs into a tender cor anglais solo, fourth bar of rehearsal mark [98].)  Rich as Dmitri Dmitriyevich's music is in emotional content, I remain a confirmed agnostic, feeling that for far the greater part, the precise mapping of the emotion is not a task we are competent to carry out.  Must say, though, that I found the emotional resonance of this musical "cross-indexing" quite touching.

(As noted above, the Подруги music is Opus 41ii (or, Opus 41a as some list it); the Fourth Symphony, Opus 43.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jay F on July 24, 2013, 05:22:20 PM
I got the Jansons box set, and am now listening to 1 & 15 together. I think it was you, Karl, who suggested that combination. I like it, and EMI conveniently put the two symphonies on the same disc.

The music is new to me, but I have heard hope and sadness and wistfulness (for I don't know what). What a strange coincidence, that I should be listening to Russian music for the first time in my life (well, except for Tchiakovsky's 4, 5, and 6 back in 1989) at the same time I'm reading horrible things about how gay people are being treated in Russia.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/photos-from-russia-everyone-needs-to-see

I got off the classical listening train a couple of days after I read about Cory Monteith's dying of a drug overdose on July 13, and I listened to tracks from Glee for about a week. Glee has probably been my biggest source of pop music since it came on the air in 2009, and I'm saddened by his death in a way celebrities' deaths almost never affect me. It must be the music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 16, 2013, 05:52:53 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ckqA08kAL._SY300_.jpg) (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/61/56/3e51124128a0486ce9ad7010.L._SY300_.jpg)


I'm truly mesmerized by Sanderling's handling of the 15th with the Berlin SO. How is his performance with Cleveland compare? Similar duration? I feel the Clevelanders might provide a better quality in tone, which is not necessarily a knock on Berlin SO.
Anyone?
Thank you in advance.  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kyjo on August 16, 2013, 06:05:42 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 16, 2013, 05:52:53 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ckqA08kAL._SY300_.jpg) (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/61/56/3e51124128a0486ce9ad7010.L._SY300_.jpg)


I'm truly mesmerized by Sanderling's handling of the 15th with the Berlin SO. How is his performance with Cleveland compare? Similar duration? I feel the Clevelanders might provide a better quality in tone, which is not necessarily a knock on Berlin SO.
Anyone?
Thank you in advance.  :)

Sanderling's rendition of Shosty 15 is even more successful with the Cleveland SO, which is really saying something! Much of this recording's success indeed has to do with the superb orchestral playing of the Clevlanders, as well as Sanderling's general approach to this enigmatic work, which is very well thought out and with more emphasis on substance than irony. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on August 16, 2013, 06:24:58 PM
Quote from: kyjo on August 16, 2013, 06:05:42 PM
Sanderling's rendition of Shosty 15 is even more successful with the Cleveland SO, which is really saying something! Much of this recording's success indeed has to do with the superb orchestral playing of the Clevlanders, as well as Sanderling's general approach to this enigmatic work, which is very well thought out and with more emphasis on substance than irony. :)

+1 I do like Sanderling w/ the Clevelanders much better as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 16, 2013, 06:41:46 PM
Thanks, Kyjo and John. 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 17, 2013, 02:37:39 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 16, 2013, 05:52:53 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ckqA08kAL._SY300_.jpg) (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/61/56/3e51124128a0486ce9ad7010.L._SY300_.jpg)How is his performance with Cleveland compare? Similar duration?

The Cleveland performance is even broader, the slowest (at least the first and fourth movements) in my collection. Barshai and Kondrashin/Moscow are the speed demons.


Sanderling/Cleveland               8:43  16:20  5:07  20:21
Sanderling/Berlin                      8:29  15:21  5:06  19:41
Caetani/SinfMilano                    8:28  14:28  4:15  19:04
Jansons/LPO                             8:20  17:08  3:59  16:40
Barshai/WDR SO                       8:19  11:43  3:53  13:58
Rostropovich/LSO                     8:13  16:17  5:40  15:56
Haitink/Concertgebouw            8:05  16:25  4:12  16:57
Kitajenko/Gürzenich                 7:58  16:01  4:34  16:59
Rozhdestvensky/USSR MOC     7:46  16:23  4:33  14:20
Kondrashin/Moscow                 7:02  13:43  4:25  15:06
Kondrashin/Dresden                7:00  13:56  4:20  17:10


Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 17, 2013, 02:51:54 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 17, 2013, 02:37:39 AM
The Cleveland performance is even broader, the slowest (at least the first and fourth movements) in my collection. Barshai and Kondrashin/Moscow are the speed demons.


Sanderling/Cleveland               8:43  16:20  5:07  20:21
Sanderling/Berlin                      8:29  15:21  5:06  19:41
Caetani/SinfMilano                    8:28  14:28  4:15  19:04
Jansons/LPO                             8:20  17:08  3:59  16:40
Barshai/WDR SO                       8:19  11:43  3:53  13:58
Rostropovich/LSO                     8:13  16:17  5:40  15:56
Haitink/Concertgebouw            8:05  16:25  4:12  16:57
Kitajenko/Gürzenich                 7:58  16:01  4:34  16:59
Rozhdestvensky/USSR MOC     7:46  16:23  4:33  14:20
Kondrahsin/Moscow                 7:02  13:43  4:25  15:06
Kondrashin/Dresden                7:00  13:56  4:20  17:10


Sarge

Great info, Sarge!
I don't have the times on me but my Ashkenazy 15 is also speedy, especially the finale.  But I prefer to spend more time with the brilliant 15th, so the broader the better to me.


Another Q&A for the Dacha....favorite 13th recording? I love my two from Masur/NYP and Jansons. Would be interested in a few more recs. Thanks, friends.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kyjo on August 17, 2013, 06:00:48 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 17, 2013, 02:51:54 AM
Another Q&A for the Dacha....favorite 13th recording? I love my two from Masur/NYP and Jansons. Would be interested in a few more recs. Thanks, friends.

Along with Masur (one of the finest recordings he ever made) and Jansons, my favorites are Haitink/Concertgebouw, Kondrashin/Moscow PO and Solti/Chicago. The latter are unique for their more energetic, less doom-laden reading of this dark score. The Kondrashin may be hard to find but definitely snap up a copy of it if you can-it's an extraordinary performance.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61q6llXkJIL._SY300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41REl8rnwqL._SY300_.jpg)   (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F99EnTBEL._SY300_.jpg)   (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/007/MI0001007895.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

:)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on August 17, 2013, 09:52:11 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 17, 2013, 02:51:54 AM
Another Q&A for the Dacha....favorite 13th recording? I love my two from Masur/NYP and Jansons. Would be interested in a few more recs. Thanks, friends.

Second Jansons & Kondrashin... dark horse (and would never have thought so myself from 'paper form' --) Kurt Masur & NY Phil.


(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000SJ6.01.L.jpg)
D. Shostakovich
Symphony No.13 "Babi Yar"
K.Masur / NYP / S.Leiferkus
Teldec
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000SJ6/goodmusicguide-20)





Notes from the 2013 Salzburg Festival ( 10 )
Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra 1 • Mariss Jansons

A Russian Pair of Sixes

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IPkrK-57VLU/UfFuIMEi-QI/AAAAAAAAGt8/hWkrJhEEoRs/s1600/notesfromthesalzburgfestival2013.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-a9tH6rOMBdQ/UgU2_2BCi_I/AAAAAAAAG-o/ls6oxZFNdRo/s1600/Russian_Sixes_laurson_600.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/notes-from-2013-salzburg-festival-10.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/notes-from-2013-salzburg-festival-10.html)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 17, 2013, 02:17:18 PM
kyjo: Glad you like the Haitink!

Jens: Glad you like the Masur!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kyjo on August 17, 2013, 03:49:44 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 17, 2013, 02:17:18 PM
kyjo: Glad you like the Haitink!

Yes, I am a great admirer of Haitink's conducting. His Shostakovich and VW cycles are among my go-to recordings of these works.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on August 17, 2013, 06:57:28 PM
I prefer Masur and Haitink in Shostakovich's Babi Yar. Absolutely first-rate performances.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kyjo on September 02, 2013, 05:45:43 PM
More Shostakovich from Petrenko due out soon:

(http://cdn.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.573188.gif)

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.573188

I've generally enjoyed Petrenko's Shostakovich, so chances are I'll get this when it comes out. :)

Also:

(http://cdn.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.573271.gif)

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.573271

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 02, 2013, 05:55:22 PM
Quote from: kyjo on September 02, 2013, 05:45:43 PM
More Shostakovich from Petrenko due out soon:

(http://cdn.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.573188.gif)

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.573188

I've generally enjoyed Petrenko's Shostakovich, so chances are I'll get this when it comes out. :)

Definitely will get it. I've enjoyed Petrenko's Shostakovich fairly well. I think there have been some misfires (Symphonies 5, 11, and 15), but his Symphonies 8 & 10 were extremely well-performed and are some of my top performances of these symphonies. Of course, Petrenko can't compete with Haitink in the 8th (my current favorite) and the 10th has so many fine performances (Karajan, Rattle, Sanderling, N. Jarvi, etc.). Petrenko is going to have a hard time erasing my memories of Rattle's 4th (my current favorite), but I'll remain open and see what he can do. This is an extremely difficult symphony to pull off well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on September 03, 2013, 10:30:11 AM
Quote from: kyjo on September 02, 2013, 05:45:43 PM
More Shostakovich from Petrenko due out soon:

(http://cdn.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.573188.gif)



Excellent news!  I, like John, have also enjoyed the Petrenko/Shostakovich symphony cycle (immensely, and a few so-so).  I think the Petrenko/RLPO recording of the 10th is simply amazing, one of the best I've heard so far.  The 5th, I thought I first was a major dud, but it has slowly grown on me and I like it much more now.

His 8th is great, I agree with Mirror John, but nothing comes close to me as well with Haitink's/RCO recording.  I've really anxious to hear Petrenko/RLPO's take on the 4th, as the 4th symphony has grown on me big time recently.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 03, 2013, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 03, 2013, 10:30:11 AM
Excellent news!  I, like John, have also enjoyed the Petrenko/Shostakovich symphony cycle (immensely, and a few so-so).  I think the Petrenko/RLPO recording of the 10th is simply amazing, one of the best I've heard so far.  The 5th, I thought I first was a major dud, but it has slowly grown on me and I like it much more now.

His 8th is great, I agree with Mirror John, but nothing comes close to me as well with Haitink's/RCO recording.  I've really anxious to hear Petrenko/RLPO's take on the 4th, as the 4th symphony has grown on me big time recently.

I have really enjoyed this Naxos series. Can't wait to recieve No 4. I thought that the Leningrad was outstanding, both in terms of the performance and the recording. I like the production values too, with the outer cardboard sleeve and the photos of Shostakovich on the booklet.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on September 15, 2013, 07:04:48 PM
I gave this a first hearing this morning.
[asin]B00DW7OQ1C[/asin]

Zoya is DSCH as the wartime patriot, very suitable for propaganda on behalf of the Great Patriotic War.  But Stepan Razin was the main attraction.   The Suite on Finnish Themes is an 11 minute collection of folk songs, here presented with a tenor and soprano and minimal forces in which a piano is noticeably prominent.

So now I have three questions:
1)Any other recordings of the Stepan Razin you would suggest?  I've got the Kondrashin already, as part of a box set of his DSCH symphony cycle, so that will be heard sooner rather than later,  but I'd be interested in other takes if they're worth hearing.

2)the liner notes say that DSCH "edited" the original text by Yevtushenko "because the romanticised picture of the Cossack leader did not correspond to his view",  but doesn't specify what changes he made beyond changing the name of the central figure from Stepan to Stenka "as being more suitable for a heroic leader of the people" (quotes are from the liner notes).  Does anyone know what DSCH's changes were, or at least have access to the original poem to make a comparison?

3)The Suite on Finnish Themes is more convoluted.  Apparently composed in 1939 on orders from the political division of the Leningrad Military District--the liner notes assume a connection to the Winter War, which began two days before Shostakovich's deadline for the commission--and not performed until September 1, 2001 at a concert in Finland (in connection with which a recording was made).

Quite clearly, some editorial intervention is necessary for any recording of this work.  Again from the liner notes:
Quote
The Suite consists of seven movement, five with one or two soloists.  It is scored for a small but unspecified ensemble.    The manuscript mentions neither the titles nor the words of the songs, nor does it indicate which songs are intended for male voice and which for female.
Which suggests to me that perhaps DSCH either never actually finished the composition for some reason, or that the final manuscript is buried in some military archive.   
At any rate, does anyone have more information on this Suite, or know of any other recording beyond the 2001 performance?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2013, 07:11:42 PM
I can answer this, Jeffrey, there are several fine performances of Stepan Razin available. One of the most recent I heard, and enjoyed, was Michail Jurowski's with the Cologne RSO on the Capriccio label. Another very good one is Schwarz's on Naxos.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on September 15, 2013, 07:28:53 PM
John, thanks for the suggestions.   

Rereading my post, I noticed a possible sort of confusion.   The Suite on Finnish Themes is essentially an orchestration of Finnish folk songs;   presumably whoever edited/arranged the music would recognize the melody of each song and fit the words to Shostakovich's music
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 16, 2013, 03:46:31 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 15, 2013, 07:04:48 PM
2)the liner notes say that DSCH "edited" the original text by Yevtushenko "because the romanticised picture of the Cossack leader did not correspond to his view",  but doesn't specify what changes he made beyond changing the name of the central figure from Stepan to Stenka "as being more suitable for a heroic leader of the people" (quotes are from the liner notes).  Does anyone know what DSCH's changes were, or at least have access to the original poem to make a comparison?

Let me dig a bit.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 16, 2013, 03:48:18 AM
That Capriccio disc is good all around:

[asin]B001UUN9XE[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on September 16, 2013, 06:39:56 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 16, 2013, 03:48:18 AM
That Capriccio disc is good all around:

[asin]B001UUN9XE[/asin]

Yes--Google gave me the pleasure of reading your review of that CD when I was trying to dig up some information.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 25, 2013, 05:38:21 PM
HAPPY BIRTHDAY DMITRI!!!!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kyjo on September 25, 2013, 05:43:18 PM
      (http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.5005648052420619&pid=1.7)
(http://www.semyonbychkov.com/images/shostakovich.jpg)


Sorry....that was the best I could do! :D We love you Dmitri!!!!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 26, 2013, 12:16:57 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 15, 2013, 07:04:48 PM
2)the liner notes say that DSCH "edited" the original text by Yevtushenko "because the romanticised picture of the Cossack leader did not correspond to his view",  but doesn't specify what changes he made beyond changing the name of the central figure from Stepan to Stenka "as being more suitable for a heroic leader of the people" (quotes are from the liner notes).  Does anyone know what DSCH's changes were, or at least have access to the original poem to make a comparison?

I don't turn up actual changes, nor the Ur-text.  This is what I find in Fay:

Quote from: Laurel E. FayA month after his return, however, on 14 September 1964, he put the finishing touches on a symphonic poem for bass, mixed chorus, and orchestra, The Execution of Stepan Razin, op. 119, based on an as yet unpublished poem by Yevgeniy Yevtushenko. as he wrote Glikman the next day, originally he had thought he might make it into something like the Thirteenth Symphony but had decided against extending it.  He also underscored that his approach to Yevtushenko's poetry was different from what it had been in the Thirteenth Symphony; here Shostakovich found himself taking a polemical stance toward some of the verses, as well as simply discarding those he found weak.  He did not expect to be able to convince Yevtushenko to make changes.  He did expect that some of the text he had set might cause problems with the censors.  And in this symphonic poem ("in the Russian style"), he predicted that critics both well disposed and stern would find plenty to latch on to -- the lapses into "coarse naturalism," for instance, not to mention the "depraved conception." Yevtushenko recalls that, while composing Stepan Razin, Shostakovich called him several times to probe: "What do you think, Yevgeniy Alexandrovich, was Razin a good man? After all, he killed people, let a lot of innocent blood."

[...]

Shostakovich's apprehension about censorship problems with Stepan Razin proved unfounded. Nevertheless, in the atmosphere of uncertainty following Khrushchev's ouster from power in mid-October 1964 (Shostakovich's reported reaction to this news was the rhetorical question: "Now we will most certainly enjoy an even better life?"), critics did not rush to register their opinion of Shostakovich's disturbingly graphic, allegorical reflection on the fate of Russia's notorious seventeenth-century peasant rebel.  Some initial reviewers took objection to his deprecating treatment of the Russian people, but more subtle appreciations soon appeared, placing the work firmly in the continuum of the distinctive tradition of Russian folk drama -- with conspicuous homage to Musorgsky -- as well as in clear relation to the composer's recent historical and vocal-symphonic interests.  In November 1968, nearly four years after its premiere, The Execution of Stepan Razin was awarded a State Prize. Shostakovich had anticipated misunderstanding of this opus.  That some ambiguity of perception persisted, however, even among those closest to the composer, is evidenced by Shostakovich's disappointment on realizing, in 1966, that he had failed to communicate to Glikman the mood he had intended in a particular passage.

Shostakovich: A Life, pp. 244-245
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on September 26, 2013, 12:39:40 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 26, 2013, 12:16:57 PM
I don't turn up actual changes, nor the Ur-text.  This is what I find in Fay:

Thanks.  (And I've read that book; apparently it's in need of a re-read, since I don't remember a word of that passage.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on October 18, 2013, 08:17:05 AM
Has anyone heard the complete Golden Age ballet?

Man, I can't stop listening to it.  It's that good (at least to my ears).

I know John (MI) will chime in on this one, but also want to hear from the other Shostakovians on the board for their thoughts on this wonderful work!  :)

[asin]B000IY068O[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 18, 2013, 09:53:53 AM
Still waiting for mine to land, Ray  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kyjo on October 18, 2013, 11:18:57 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 18, 2013, 08:17:05 AM
Has anyone heard the complete Golden Age ballet?

Man, I can't stop listening to it.  It's that good (at least to my ears).

I know John (MI) will chime in on this one, but also want to hear from the other Shostakovians on the board for their thoughts on this wonderful work!  :)

[asin]B000IY068O[/asin]

I think it's an absolutely delightful work-good fun but not devoid of substance. Those tunes are very difficult to dislodge from the memory!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on November 05, 2013, 05:41:03 PM
Quote from: kyjo on September 02, 2013, 05:45:43 PM
More Shostakovich from Petrenko due out soon:

(http://cdn.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.573188.gif)

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.573188

I've generally enjoyed Petrenko's Shostakovich, so chances are I'll get this when it comes out. :)



Just finished my first full listen to the Petrenko/RLPO take on Shostakovich's 4th.

I'm blown away............wow!!  Love it.  I know I 'can't trust a first listen', but this seriously may be my favourite recording of the Petrenko/RLPO Shosty cycle so far.   *sigh*  :blank:
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 05, 2013, 06:52:12 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 05, 2013, 05:41:03 PM
Just finished my first full listen to the Petrenko/RLPO take on Shostakovich's 4th.

I'm blown away............wow!!  Love it.  I know I 'can't trust a first listen', but this seriously may be my favourite recording of the Petrenko/RLPO Shosty cycle so far.   *sigh*  :blank:

Damn, really Ray? You think it's better than those smoldering 8th and 10th performances? It must be very good. I'll be acquiring this recording as well at some point.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 05, 2013, 06:52:33 PM
It really is a strong 'un.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on November 05, 2013, 06:55:27 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 05, 2013, 06:52:12 PM
Damn, really Ray? You think it's better than those smoldering 8th and 10th performances? It must be very good. I'll be acquiring this recording as well at some point.

The 8th, 10th, 7th and 9th in the Petrenko cycle are bloody fantastic, but I was truly blown away by this 4th!  Especially that final movement.  Hope you'll check it out, John.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on November 05, 2013, 06:55:52 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 05, 2013, 06:52:33 PM
It really is a strong 'un.

+1 Karl!  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 05, 2013, 06:58:40 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 05, 2013, 06:55:27 PM
The 8th, 10th, 7th and 9th in the Petrenko cycle are bloody fantastic, but I was truly blown away by this 4th!  Especially that final movement.  Hope you'll check it out, John.

I definitely will, Ray. Thanks for the report! 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on November 05, 2013, 07:05:26 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 05, 2013, 06:58:40 PM
I definitely will, Ray. Thanks for the report! 8)

You're welcome, John!  Only the mighty 13th and 14th left to go!  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on November 06, 2013, 01:52:44 AM
I need to get me some Shostakovich symphonies. The only ones I have are 10 and 13, conducted by Previn.  I had a Naxos CD somewhere, don't know what's happened to that... possibly still in my bedroom at my parent's house???

Anyway, received wisdom of the Penguin Guide in days gone by seemed to be there wasn't any one cycle that really nailed it. But I like sets, so I'm a bit interested in this Petrenko talk. Is it shaping up to be a particularly strong overall cycle?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on November 06, 2013, 02:00:10 AM
Quote from: orfeo on November 06, 2013, 01:52:44 AM
I need to get me some Shostakovich symphonies. The only ones I have are 10 and 13, conducted by Previn.  I had a Naxos CD somewhere, don't know what's happened to that... possibly still in my bedroom at my parent's house???

Anyway, received wisdom of the Penguin Guide in days gone by seemed to be there wasn't any one cycle that really nailed it. But I like sets, so I'm a bit interested in this Petrenko talk. Is it shaping up to be a particularly strong overall cycle?

Sure, every cycle has ups and downs... but at <$30,- you can't do wrong with Jansons, if you need one. Certainly cheaper than collecting the Petrenko cycle which I find strong in parts, convincing in others, but also overrated across the board.

Perhaps don't bother with a cycle at all and get recordings of one symphony at a time... sink your teeth into them... and then move on?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on November 06, 2013, 02:35:28 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 06, 2013, 02:00:10 AM
Perhaps don't bother with a cycle at all and get recordings of one symphony at a time... sink your teeth into them... and then move on?

Well, this may be one of those rare cases where I take that approach. I don't particularly like generating lots of unintended double-ups, but with Shostakovich symphonies many of them tend to reside on their own individual discs so it's less of an issue.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on November 06, 2013, 05:37:31 AM
Quote from: orfeo on November 06, 2013, 02:35:28 AM
Well, this may be one of those rare cases where I take that approach. I don't particularly like generating lots of unintended double-ups, but with Shostakovich symphonies many of them tend to reside on their own individual discs so it's less of an issue.

I'd especially suggest this, since some of my favorite recordings of DSCH lie outside of official cycles (or at least, don't come all boxed up together)
Gergiev 4th (and there are several other good recordings of that one in particular)
Rostropovich 8 and 11 on LSO Live (NOT the earlier recordings with the NSO!)
Karajan 10

Although I'm in the middle of listening to Kondrashin's cycle on Melodiya now (up through the Seventh, so far), which is shaping up to be a very good one,  so that observation is to be taken with due caution.
But the Jansons is relatively strong throughout, from the ones I've heard (I have about half of it as individual CDs),   so you'd probably be safe there. (I got the Kondrashin as a bargain, but it's normally rather pricey.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on November 06, 2013, 05:49:08 AM
The Jansons is very fine indeed, and there isn't a bad recording in there, even if some (5th) aren't particularly outstanding perhaps.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on November 06, 2013, 07:52:45 AM
Quote from: orfeo on November 06, 2013, 02:35:28 AM
Well, this may be one of those rare cases where I take that approach. I don't particularly like generating lots of unintended double-ups, but with Shostakovich symphonies many of them tend to reside on their own individual discs so it's less of an issue.

Barshai/WDR set is also good.  Reasonably priced set, but not sure if you can buy individual discs.

I also like Haitink/RCO for the 8th, and have heard that that whole cycle is quite good.

I also really enjoy Ormandy/Philadelphia, for the 4th and 10th.  I don't have it, but have checked out a copy from my local library on more than one occasion.  If memory serves me correctly, the Ormandy/Philadelphia 4th was the American premiere recording, but I could be mistaken.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kyjo on November 06, 2013, 11:10:19 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 05, 2013, 05:41:03 PM
Just finished my first full listen to the Petrenko/RLPO take on Shostakovich's 4th.

I'm blown away............wow!!  Love it.  I know I 'can't trust a first listen', but this seriously may be my favourite recording of the Petrenko/RLPO Shosty cycle so far.   *sigh*  :blank:

Thanks for the report, Ray! Sounds like a winner! :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on November 06, 2013, 03:30:56 PM
Listening to the 4th again!  Twice!

Petrenko/RLPO, followed by Barshai/WDR
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Fafner on November 10, 2013, 02:48:25 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 06, 2013, 03:30:56 PM
Listening to the 4th again!  Twice!

Petrenko/RLPO, followed by Barshai/WDR

(http://cultureslurp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Facebook-Like-Button.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 10, 2013, 05:00:36 AM
Last night, I showed my brother the Kozintsev Hamlet.

Quote(http://cultureslurp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Facebook-Like-Button.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on November 10, 2013, 06:10:33 AM
Currently listening to the Eleventh from the Kondrashin cycle.
(http://cultureslurp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Facebook-Like-Button.jpg)
This is shaping up to be the best cycle of the symphonies I've heard to date.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 10, 2013, 06:13:40 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 10, 2013, 06:10:33 AM
Currently listening to the Eleventh from the Kondrashin cycle.
(http://cultureslurp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Facebook-Like-Button.jpg)
This is shaping up to be the best cycle of the symphonies I've heard to date.

Yes, Kondrashin's cycle is very intensive and dare I say definitive. Truly sizzling performances from a conductor long associated with the composer. I prefer his performances to any of Mravinsky's. I think Mravinsky is bit too stiff for Shostakovich.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on November 12, 2013, 03:29:13 PM
Quote from: Karl HenningДмитри Дмитриевич [ Dmitri Dmitriyevich (Shostakovich) ]
Симфония № 4 до минор, соч. 43 [ Symphony № 4 in c minor, Opus 43 ]
Staatskapelle Dresden
Кирилл Петрович [ Kirill Petrovich (Kondrashin) ]

Karl, how is the Kondrashin, comparably to the Petrenko/RLPO account?

Which is your favourite recording of the 4th, Karl? :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 13, 2013, 12:13:09 PM
Ouch, you know I cannot answer such a question, Ray!  :)

Four that I like very well are (in no particular order, well, maybe the order in which I have listened to them . . . and rather off the top of my head):

Максим Дмитриевич / Prague Symphony
Haitink / CSO
Jansons / Bavarian Radio Symphony
Petrenko / RLPh
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on November 13, 2013, 01:07:01 PM
Excellent, Karl!  Merci!  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Fafner on November 14, 2013, 01:09:10 PM
First time listening to Kondrashin's  Sixth.

Wow, that Largo is chilly!

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on November 14, 2013, 06:15:33 PM
Quote from: Fafner on November 14, 2013, 01:09:10 PM
First time listening to Kondrashin's  Sixth.

Wow, that Largo is chilly!

I'm now listening to Kondrashin's 15th (Moscow Phil), and can say that I think he does very well in every symphony.  My favorite 8th and 11th remain the Rostropovich LSO--possibly because they were the first recordings I ever heard of those symphonies, and among the first DSCH I heard--but Kondrashin comes very close even there.  My other two cycles are the Haitink and Barshai,  and I'm  thinking that Haitink is the least of the three (Barshai is marred for me by a very soggy 11th). 

This is the Melodiya set, as it was reissued in 2012 (apparently actually a second run of the set issued in 2006), and possibly remastered then (can't read the Russian fine print).  My only reservation comes from one of the add ons,  a recording of the Second Violin Concerto from 1967 featuring Oistrakh,  on the same CD as the 15th (so that's coming up in a bit).  I have the contents of this CD on an Alto CD, and remember the sonics of the concerto to be rather subpar; so I'll see if Melodiya has improved on that. (Given the recording dates as set down in the Alto CD liner notes,  this recording was probably the world premiere recording of the concerto, made with a couple of weeks of the premiere performance.)  The sonics of the symphonies need not apologize for anything, certainly.

[As I finish this post, I'm listening to the concerto.  The sound is far superior to the Alto CD.]

[asin]B000P733I4[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ITXXeJpaL.jpg)

It's true the price is $100, and I got it as a bargain from Prestoclassical, but I still firmly say anyone looking for another cycle should get this.

Which leads to the next question:  what recordings outside this cycle did Kondrashin make of the symphonies?  I'm seeing on the Amazon listings at least two recordings with Staatskapelle Dresden.  Any others?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on November 14, 2013, 06:51:24 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 14, 2013, 06:15:33 PM
Which leads to the next question:  what recordings outside this cycle did Kondrashin make of the symphonies?  I'm seeing on the Amazon listings at least two recordings with Staatskapelle Dresden.  Any others?

There are two with the Concertgebouw, the sixth and the ninth. They're on two OOP Philips CDs. Just type "Shostakovich Kondrashin Philips" on Amazon. I have the sixth.


Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on November 17, 2013, 06:39:32 AM
Not that I need another DVD/Recording of Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District, but has anyone listened to Conlon's DVD production with the Fiorentino Maggio Musicale Chorus and Orchestra  or Metzamacher's CD with the Vienna State Opera?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on November 17, 2013, 08:40:18 AM
Quote from: PaulR on November 17, 2013, 06:39:32 AM
Not that I need another DVD/Recording of Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District, but has anyone listened to Conlon's DVD production with the Fiorentino Maggio Musicale Chorus and Orchestra  or Metzamacher's CD with the Vienna State Opera?

No, I haven't.  I love this performance and production!

[asin]B000JJRACI[/asin]

Edit:  Didn't realize you had posted this in the WAYLT thread.  :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on November 17, 2013, 04:30:09 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 17, 2013, 08:40:18 AM
No, I haven't.  I love this performance and production!

[asin]B000JJRACI[/asin]

Edit:  Didn't realize you had posted this in the WAYLT thread.  :D
I have that one and the one from Barcelona. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on November 30, 2013, 05:45:46 PM
Now listening to:

Symphony No. 6 in B minor, Op. 54

[asin]B005KNOE3G[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on December 14, 2013, 02:06:28 PM
For DBM, my first listen to these three works (ok, only the suite from 'The Bolt' is ballet), but dance music, nevertheless.

My impressions were 5 stars out of 5 for all 3 of these works.  The one I enjoyed the most was 'The Gadfly' suite.  Incredible!!!  I wasn't expecting such dramatic content in Gadfly, compared to some of Shostakovich's 'lighter' dance music.  Great stuff, will revisit this often indeed!  :)   *Cross post from the 'Favourite Ballets' thread.  My esteem for Shostakovich just continues to soar and soar higher.  :)

Shostakovich

Moscow-Cheryomushki - Suite from the operetta, Op. 105
The Bolt - Suite from the ballet, Op. 27a (1934 version)
The Gadfly - Excerpts from the film music, Op. 97 (original orchestration)


Chailly
The Philadelphia Orchestra
Decca

[asin]B0000042F8[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on December 25, 2013, 08:03:54 AM
Enjoying Christmas morning with probably my favourite 'discovery' of 2013

Shostakovich

The Golden Age Ballet, Op. 22


Serebrier
Royal Scottish National Orchestra
Naxos

[asin]B000IY068O[/asin]


*And as John (MI) has mentioned, the Dance of the Diva Adagio in Scene 2 of Act I is so incredibly gorgeous!  :)  The music and orchestration in this fantastic work is as top notch as any Shostakovich symphony, IMHO.  Each listen continues to cement my opinion on that.  It is only my opinion.  ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 25, 2013, 08:29:26 AM
Tee-hee! Joyeux Noël, Ray!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 25, 2013, 08:33:35 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 25, 2013, 08:03:54 AM
Enjoying Christmas morning with probably my favourite 'discovery' of 2013

Shostakovich

The Golden Age Ballet, Op. 22


Serebrier
Royal Scottish National Orchestra
Naxos

[asin]B000IY068O[/asin]


*And as John (MI) has mentioned, the Dance of the Diva Adagio in Scene 2 of Act I is so incredibly gorgeous!  :)  The music and orchestration in this fantastic work is as top notch as any Shostakovich symphony, IMHO.  Each listen continues to cement my opinion on that.  It is only my opinion.  ;D

Haha! I knew you would love this ballet once you sunk your teeth into it, Ray. Carry on! BTW, yes, that Dance of the Diva movement is hauntingly beautiful. It's almost as if you can hear the despair Shostakovich must have been feeling around that time. Such sadness.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on December 25, 2013, 11:15:17 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 25, 2013, 08:29:26 AM
Tee-hee! Joyeux Noël, Ray!

Joyeux Noël, Karl!  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on December 25, 2013, 11:25:26 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 25, 2013, 08:33:35 AM
Haha! I knew you would love this ballet once you sunk your teeth into it, Ray. Carry on! BTW, yes, that Dance of the Diva movement is hauntingly beautiful. It's almost as if you can hear the despair Shostakovich must have been feeling around that time. Such sadness.

So many great moments (really, the whole ballet is great).  It is like an all-inclusive vacation into Shostakovich's sound world, which we all know is quite vast, and varied!  :)

Some outstanding movements, outside of the beautiful 'Dance of the Diva Adagio', for me include:

A Rare Case of Mass Hysteria - very dramatic!!

The Supposed Terrorist (The Hand of Moscow) - brilliant use of the flexaphone and trumpet

Polka:  Once upon a Time in Geneva - 'Angel of Peace' - Great number, love the use of the xylophone here.

The Touching Coalition of the Classes, slightly fraudelent - humourous, sardonic!  Again, the flexaphone makes an appearance, and that hilarious, mocking, trumpet call.

Final Dance of Solidarity - what a fantastic finale.  Great coda
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on December 25, 2013, 11:28:46 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 25, 2013, 11:25:26 AM
So many great moments (really, the whole ballet is great).  It is like an all-inclusive vacation into Shostakovich's sound world, which we all know is quite vast, and varied!  :)

Some outstanding movements, outside of the beautiful 'Dance of the Diva Adagio', for me include:

A Rare Case of Mass Hysteria - very dramatic!!

The Supposed Terrorist (The Hand of Moscow) - brilliant use of the flexaphone and trumpet

Polka:  Once upon a Time in Geneva - 'Angel of Peace' - Great number, love the use of the xylophone here.

The Touching Coalition of the Classes, slightly fraudelent - humourous, sardonic!  Again, the flexaphone makes an appearance, and that hilarious, mocking, trumpet call.

Final Dance of Solidarity - what a fantastic finale.  Great coda

One of the things I enjoy with that ballet is the imaginative, and sometimes rather mocking,  titles given to the various episodes
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on December 25, 2013, 11:30:22 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 25, 2013, 11:28:46 AM
One of the things I enjoy with that ballet is the imaginative, and sometimes rather mocking,  titles given to the various episodes

Indeed, Jeffrey.  They are quite amusing, imaginative titles!  ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 25, 2013, 11:46:44 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 25, 2013, 11:25:26 AM
So many great moments (really, the whole ballet is great).  It is like an all-inclusive vacation into Shostakovich's sound world, which we all know is quite vast, and varied!  :)

Some outstanding movements, outside of the beautiful 'Dance of the Diva Adagio', for me include:

A Rare Case of Mass Hysteria - very dramatic!!

The Supposed Terrorist (The Hand of Moscow) - brilliant use of the flexaphone and trumpet

Polka:  Once upon a Time in Geneva - 'Angel of Peace' - Great number, love the use of the xylophone here.

The Touching Coalition of the Classes, slightly fraudelent - humourous, sardonic!  Again, the flexaphone makes an appearance, and that hilarious, mocking, trumpet call.

Final Dance of Solidarity - what a fantastic finale.  Great coda

Yep, it's a ballet loaded with gems. No doubt.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 25, 2013, 04:57:30 PM
It didn't take long for ol' Dmitri to sink his teeth into me (he is my favorite composer after all), but since this is 'Ballet Month,' I figured I would listen to one of the least heard Shosty ballets: The Limpid Stream.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/966/MI0000966178.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

While this ballet is not on the same level as The Golden Age or even The Bolt, it does have some excellent parts and is more than worth hearing.

(Are you reading this Ray?) ;) :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on December 26, 2013, 04:55:30 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 25, 2013, 04:57:30 PM
It didn't take long for ol' Dmitri to sink his teeth into me (he is my favorite composer after all), but since this is 'Ballet Month,' I figured I would listen to one of the least heard Shosty ballets: The Limpid Stream.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/966/MI0000966178.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

While this ballet is not on the same level as The Golden Age or even The Bolt, it does have some excellent parts and is more than worth hearing.

(Are you reading this Ray?) ;) :D

Indeed I am, John.  I will definitely and eventually get both complete ballets for The Bolt and The Limpid Stream.  More than 1/2 of the numbers in the 4 Ballet Suites features music from The Limpid Stream, and I enjoy those immensely.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 26, 2013, 05:31:13 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 26, 2013, 04:55:30 AM
Indeed I am, John.  I will definitely and eventually get both complete ballets for The Bolt and The Limpid Stream.  More than 1/2 of the numbers in the 4 Ballet Suites features music from The Limpid Stream, and I enjoy those immensely.

One thing is for sure, the craftsmanship in Shostakovich is always apparent from start to finish. The Limpid Stream is certainly well thought-out and constructed. It's just not one of his more immediate successes to my ears, but, as I stated before, it's more than worth hearing and I think you, or any Shostakovich fan for that matter, would find something enjoyable within the work.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on December 26, 2013, 05:49:49 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 26, 2013, 05:31:13 AM
One thing is for sure, the craftsmanship in Shostakovich is always apparent from start to finish. The Limpid Stream is certainly well thought-out and constructed. It's just not one of his more immediate successes to my ears, but, as I stated before, it's more than worth hearing and I think you, or any Shostakovich fan for that matter, would find something enjoyable within the work.

I have no doubt about it, John.  You know, Shostakovich is one of my equally favourite composers, alongside Beethoven and Brahms.  This is quite a testament to Shostakovich's music, as I have only heard 1/2 of all his compositions (if that).

I have many new CDs in the queue of works I have not heard yet, and a few more incoming.  My goal in 2014 is to have as many of the other Shostakovich works that I don't yet have in library.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 26, 2013, 05:58:24 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 26, 2013, 05:49:49 AM
I have no doubt about it, John.  You know, Shostakovich is one of my equally favourite composers, alongside Beethoven and Brahms.  This is quite a testament to Shostakovich's music, as I have only heard 1/2 of all his compositions (if that).

I have many new CDs in the queue of works I have not heard yet, and a few more incoming.  My goal in 2014 is to have as many of the other Shostakovich works that I don't yet have in library.

As you know, Ray, Shostakovich is my numero uno. I would definitely say he's a composer worth exploring in depth because you'll soon realize how consistent he was. Everything he touched had his DNA on it. The chamber music seems to be the most personal of his music. One listen to say the Cello Sonata and you realize that you're in a completely different universe from Lady Macbeth or Symphony No. 4. And, for me, the sheer variety in his musical style is enough to keep you occupied for a lifetime. He was certainly the last great symphonist in my opinion and I can't think of a recent SQ cycle by any contemporary composer that has had the same impact as Shostakovich's. The man was a genius. I don't like using the 'genius' word but I think it aptly applied to him.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on December 26, 2013, 06:03:26 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 26, 2013, 05:58:24 AM
As you know, Ray, Shostakovich is my numero uno. I would definitely say he's a composer worth exploring in depth because you'll soon realize how consistent he was. Everything he touched had his DNA on it. The chamber music seems to be the most personal of his music. One listen to say the Cello Sonata and you realize that you're in a completely different universe from Lady Macbeth or Symphony No. 4. And, for me, the sheer variety in his musical style is enough to keep you occupied for a lifetime. He was certainly the last great symphonist in my opinion and I can't think of a recent SQ cycle by any contemporary composer that has had the same impact as Shostakovich's. The man was a genius. I don't like using the 'genius' word but I think it aptly applied to him.

Agree, here.  Unique, contemporary, yet for many of his works, he followed traditional classical forms (which I admire and appreciate).  As you mentioned, the sheer variety of his music is remarkable.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on January 02, 2014, 06:16:23 AM
More Shostakovich quartets this morning with these superb performances:

Shostakovich

String Quartet No. 1 in C major, Op. 49
String Quartet No. 2 in A major, Op. 68
String Quartet No. 4 in D major, Op. 83


Borodin String Quartet

Melodiya

[asin]B000HXE5BK[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 02, 2014, 06:27:53 AM
Looks great, Ray.  In fact, if I did not presently suffer a sort of squirrel fixation, I had joined you  ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on January 02, 2014, 06:30:11 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 02, 2014, 06:27:53 AM
Looks great, Ray.  In fact, if I did not presently suffer a sort of squirrel fixation, I had joined you  ;)

Understood.  Stow away those acorns!  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on January 04, 2014, 08:02:22 AM
This terrific Shostakovich quartet, with this outstanding performance:

Shostakovich

String Quartet No. 3 in F major, Op. 73


Borodin String Quartet

Melodiya

[asin]B000HXE5BK[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on January 04, 2014, 09:03:21 AM
Predictable...more of this:

Shostakovich

String Quartet No. 5 in B flat major, Op. 92
String Quartet No. 6 in G major, Op. 101
String Quartet No. 7 in F sharp minor, Op. 108


Borodin String Quartet

Melodiya

[asin]B000HXE5BK[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on January 06, 2014, 05:21:09 AM
Trying to warm up with some more hot performances of DSCH SQs:  8)

Shostakovich

String Quartet No. 8 in C minor, Op. 110
String Quartet No. 9 in E flat major, Op. 117
String Quartet No. 10 in A flat major, Op. 118
String Quartet No. 11 in F minor, Op. 122
String Quartet No. 12 in D flat major, Op. 133
String Quartet No. 13 in B flat minor, Op. 138


Borodin String Quartet

Melodiya

[asin]B000HXE5BK[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2014, 05:23:03 AM
I dunno, Ray, that Op.110 opens with counterpoint which gives me the chills, just thinking about it . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on January 06, 2014, 05:25:23 AM
Well, the Op. 122 Recitative nearly gave me a heart attack.  Particularly frighteningly well executed by the Bovine Borodins!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2014, 05:26:29 AM
I did! Typo emended . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on January 06, 2014, 05:27:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 06, 2014, 05:26:29 AM
I did! Typo emended . . . .

I've emended as well.  :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on January 06, 2014, 06:21:47 AM
Finishing off the fine Borodin cycle with these two gems!:

Shostakovich

String Quartet No. 14 in F sharp major, Op. 142
String Quartet No. 15 in E flat minor, Op. 144


Borodin String Quartet

Melodiya

[asin]B000HXE5BK[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on January 24, 2014, 03:32:56 PM
Has anyone here picked up this disc of Shostakovich Symphony No. 5 by San Francisco/Tilson Thomas?
http://www.amazon.com/Shostakovich-Symphony-No-San-Francisco/dp/B002ZPIC12/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1390609851&sr=8-2&keywords=shostakovich+tilson+thomas

I'm temped to buy it but have many recordings of this work so looking for trusted review if it brings something new to the crowded field.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 24, 2014, 05:11:02 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 24, 2014, 03:32:56 PM
Has anyone here picked up this disc of Shostakovich Symphony No. 5 by San Francisco/Tilson Thomas?
http://www.amazon.com/Shostakovich-Symphony-No-San-Francisco/dp/B002ZPIC12/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1390609851&sr=8-2&keywords=shostakovich+tilson+thomas

I'm temped to buy it but have many recordings of this work so looking for trusted review if it brings something new to the crowded field.

MTT's Shostakovich is nothing special. It's nuanced and even beautiful. This symphony, in my estimate, needs more drive from the conductor and there's a certain rawness that I think Shostakovich needs that MTT lacks. My first-choice for the 5th is Bernstein/NY Philharmonic Live in Japan 1979. This performance has it all. Every movement is quite simply top-notch. Expect several eargasms. ;) :P
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 25, 2014, 07:04:26 AM
Hearing the Fifteenth Symphony at Symphony Hall tonight.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 25, 2014, 07:20:39 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 25, 2014, 07:04:26 AM
Hearing the Fifteenth Symphony at Symphony Hall tonight.

Cool, Karl. 8) Who's the conductor?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on January 25, 2014, 07:22:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 25, 2014, 07:04:26 AM
Hearing the Fifteenth Symphony at Symphony Hall tonight.

*pounds the table!*  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 25, 2014, 08:07:21 AM
BSO assistant conductor Andris Poga.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 25, 2014, 04:52:31 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 25, 2014, 08:07:21 AM
BSO assistant conductor Andris Poga.

Ah, never heard of him. Hope you enjoyed the concert. 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 25, 2014, 07:40:38 PM
It was a fabulous concert. (I even enjoyed the Wagner Rienzi overture ;) )

And, no, we none of us heard of Andris Poga before, he's an assistant conductor, and this was his first (full?) subscription concert.  He's a young man full of promise!  And dang, but the BSO sounds at the top of their game.


The Fifteenth is a magnificent piece heard live; I commend the experience to all!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 25, 2014, 07:42:26 PM
Excellent, Karl. I'll keep on the lookout for this conductor in the future. Yes, I imagine the BSO sounded riveting in the 15th. What a piece!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 30, 2014, 07:08:12 PM
Today, I found I was able to listen to the entire cycle of string quartets over the course of the day. I don't say that I commend the practice to anyone . . . although I certainly enjoyed it completely, so I do not dissuade anyone who is inclined to try.  I was not nearly so familiar with the quartets as I wish to be, but I had a better than passing acquaintance with all of them;  so that my own listening history with them made the project both coherent and worthwhile.

Here I'll recapitulate the biographical extracts which I posted concurrently with my day's listening.

№ 1 in C, Opus 49 (1938)

№ 2 in A, Opus 68 (1944)

The Second Quartet, composed in a scant nine days, is exceeded in duration only by the Fifteenth among Dmitri Dmitriyevich's quartets, and is dedicated to Vissarion Shebalin.

№ 3 in F, Opus 73 (1946)

The first post-war quartet, and composed after the Ninth Symphony met with official disapproval.

Quote from: WikipediaFor the premiere, most likely so that he would not be accused of "formalism" or "elitism," Shostakovich renamed the movements in the manner of a war story:

1. Blithe ignorance of the future cataclysm
2. Rumblings of unrest and anticipation
3. Forces of war unleashed
4. In memory of the dead
5. The eternal question: Why? And for what?

№ 4 in D, Opus 83 (1949)

Although composed in 1949, the première was in December 1953, i.e. after the death of Stalin.  Given the quartet's quiet, emotionally ambiguous ending, the composer was right to hold off a public performance until after Uncle Joe's passing.

№ 5 in Bb, Opus 92 (1952)

The other quartet which he composed prior to 1953, but whose première waited until after the death of Stalin.

Quote from: Laurel FayThe last weeks of 1953 were hectic. In a sign of the easing of intellectual and cultural constraints that had begun to make itself felt after the death of Stalin, Shostakovich was now confident enough to risk the public premières of two works, the Fourth and Fifth String Quartets, heretofore deferred. The première that attracted the most attention, however, was the unveiling of Shostakovich's Tenth Symphony in Leningrad on 17 December 1953 [....]

№ 6 in G, Opus 101 (1956)

Although the marriage would prove to have been rather ill-considered, in the "moon of honey" (August 1956) when Shostakovich wrote this quartet, he was a happy man, in the company of his second wife, Margarita Kainova.  Fay reports: For the first time since the composition of the Tenth Symphony, he was able to report he was satisfied with something he had composed. (The footnote refers to a volume (in Russian) of letters to his friends, so the statement is probably a reflection of sincerity . . . makes me want to check the intervening opus numbers . . . .)

№ 7 in f# minor, Opus 108 (1960)

Composed in memory of his first wife Nina Vassilyevna Varzar (and the mother of Maksim Dmitriyevich), this quartet was apparently finished while Shostakovich was "bored and lonely" in a Leningrad hospital while his right hand was being treated.

Fay writes that the first movement and a half had been written the previous summer, when the composer was, perhaps,
waxing a trifle sentimental at a time when he had just extricated himself from his unsuccessful second marriage.

Quote from: Laurel FayIt was, incidentally, during the rehearsals of the Seventh Quartet that Shostakovich disclosed to Dmitri Tsyganov his firm intention to compose twenty-four string quartets, one in every major and minor key.

№ 8 in c minor, Opus 110 (1960)

Composed in the space of three days (12-14 July 1960) while in Dresden. Shostakovich was to collaborate with Leo Arnshtam on a film about the Dresden firebombing.  The composer was in the throes of an emotional crisis: that was the year he (with some semi-witting complicity on his own part) was at last muscled into joining the Communist Party.

His friend Lev Lebedinsky recalls that time:


Quote from: Lev LebedinskyTime-serving was alien to Shostakovich's nature.  But, over the years, he assumed a mask, and played the role of an obedient Party member.  Nevertheless, he often lost his orientation in the complex labyrinths of political behavior.  His writings often contradicted what he said, and, even worse, his actions contradicted what he had written.

The most tragic example of his neurotic behavior was his joining the Communist Party in 1960, which he hated and despised.  It's hard to tell what made him join, although he had been under much official pressure for some time.  He didn't tell his friends and family that he had made the application for membership; we only found out when we received the official Party circular in the post.

It was only then that it dawned on me what had happened. Shostakovich had never heeded my warnings that certain invitations issued by certain friends brought him into the society of licensed officials, and were nothing short of a trap.

On 19 July, the composer wrote to his friend Isaak Glikman about the recent trip to Dresden:

Quote from: Dmitri DmitriyevichHowever much I tried to draft my obligations to the film, I just couldn't do it. Instead I wrote an ideologically deficient quartet nobody needs. I reflected that if I die some day then it's hardly likely anyone will write a work dedicated to my memory.  So I decided to write one myself.  You could even write on the cover: 'Dedicated to the memory of the composer of this quartet.'

Another story of this quartet, from cellist Valentin Berlinsky:

Quote from: Valentin BerlinskyThe Eighth Quartet is one of my particular favorites. It is a landmark, the summing up of a whole period in the composer's life. The quotations from Shostakovich's previous works give it the character of autobiography. Naturally, we decided to learn the quartet.  First, after many rehearsals, we played it in an out-of-town concert in Krasnoyarsk.  Only then did we feel prepared to play it for Shostakovich.  We performed it for him at his home;  when we finished playing, he left the room without saying a word, and didn't come back.  We quietly packed up our instruments and left.  The next day he rang me up in a state of great agitation.  He said, "I'm sorry, but I just couldn't face anybody.  I have no corrections to make, just play it the way you did."

№ 9 in Eb, Opus 117 (1964)

Quote from: Laurel FayAs Tsyganov recalled, in response to his impatient inquiries, the composer promised that he would call the minute the quartet was done. A year later, Shostakovich's position ws that completion of the Ninth Quartet might well take another year or even a year and a half. And the call to Tsyganov did not come until the summer of 1964, at which point Shostakovich acknowledged that the Ninth he had just completed was an entirely new quartet; he had discarded the one he had been writing two years earlier. He dedicated the Ninth Quartet to his wife, Irina.

№ 10 in Ab, Opus 118 (1964)

Quote from: Laurel FayAs they had the previous summer, Shostakovich and Irina spent most of the month of July 1964 in Dilizhan.  The weather was fine, the surroundings magnificent, and the composer in good spirits.  In Dilizhan, Shostakovich composed yet another quartet, his Tenth, op.118, completing it on 20 July.  This one he dedicated to his friend and colleague, Moisey Vainberg, with whom he was engaged in a playful competition;  he admitted he had set his sights on overtaking Vainberg's record of nine quartets.  The Shostakoviches celebrated completion of the new quartet on the second anniversary of the composition of the Thirteenth Symphony.

№ 11 in f minor, Opus 122 (1966)

The Eleventh Quartet was premièred (and encored) at the concert which was the composer's final public appearance as a performer;  later that evening he suffered a heart attack.

№ 12 in Db, Opus 133 (1968)

Quote from: Elizabeth WilsonOn 11 March 1968 [Shostakovich] wrote to Dmitri Tsyganov from Repino: 'Dear Mitya! Tomorrow is your sixtieth birthday.  I have just completed a quartet and ask you not to refuse the honour of accepting my dedication to you.'  The work in question, the two-movement Twelfth Quartet, represented an open acknowledgement of Shostakovich's interest in serial techniques.

№ 13 in bb minor, Opus 138 (1970)

Quote from: Laurel FayGlikman recalled that the audience in Leningrad remained standing after the initial performance of the Thirteenth Quartet until the musicians repeated the quartet, a stark one-movement work whose prominent role for solo viola and close relationship to the Fourteenth Symphony did not go unremarked.  Four months later, when Benjamin Britten and Peter Pears made what would be their last visit to Moscow, they were deeply moved by the private performance in the composer's apartment (repeated on request) of Shostakovich's latest quartet opus.

№ 14 in F#, Opus 142 (1973)

Quote from: Elizabeth WilsonAfter completing the Fifteenth Symphony, Shostakovich underwent an extremely difficult period.  His health was shattered by a second heart attack, and as a composer he felt 'dried up'.  Writing to Glikman with a light-hearted irony that barely disguises his real despair, Shostakovich warned:

Look after your health.  It's terrible to lose it.  Heart attacks and the like creep up on you unawares.  Should you feel that your first measures of vodka afford you no pleasure, that spells trouble.  I noticed while in Repino that I got no pleasure from drinking vodka.  And that meant a heart attack was on the approach.

On 16 January 1973 Shostakovich wrote to Glikman in a state of great despondency: 'I am almost helpless in all daily matters.  I am unable to dress or wash myself independently.  Some spring has broken within me.  Since finishing the Fifteenth Symphony I haven't composed a single note.'

When Mravinsky visited him at Repino on 23 March 1973, Shostakovich complained bitterly that his life was a misery, he couldn't compose and neither was he allowed to drink.  Thereupon he suggested breaking the rules and having a vodka together.  And as had happened on other occasions, the consumption of alcohol seemed to unlock some inhibiting factor that had been blocking the composer's creative activity.  The following day Shostakovich embarked on his Fourteenth Quartet, completing it on 23 April, and thereby ending an eighteen-month period of creative silence.

№ 15 in eb minor, Opus 144 (1974)

Quote from: Laurel FayShortly before entering the hospital in May [1974], Shostakovich phoned Glikman and told him he was working on a new quartet, his Fifteenth.  He completed its composition on 17 May.  This was the first quartet since his Sixth, and one of a total of only three, that the composer did not provide with a dedication.  The bleak introspection and elegiac cast of its unprecedented succession of six adagio movements left no doubt in his contemporaries' minds that the String Quartet no. 15 in E-flat Minor, op.144, could be regarded as a personal requiem.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on January 30, 2014, 09:23:00 PM
To think he only had 9 more to go for all the keys...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on January 30, 2014, 09:54:12 PM
If he followed the sequence the remaining keys would have been -
No. 16 in B major
No. 17 in g-sharp minor
No. 18 in E major
No. 19 in c-sharp minor
No. 20 in a minor
No. 21 in... e minor (= f-flat minor)? Maybe he would have skipped straight to d minor on this one?
No. 22 in d minor (or b minor)
No. 23 in b minor (or g minor)
No. 24 in g minor (or e minor)

In my less sane moments I've contemplated writing some Shostakovich 'fanfic' and sketching the incipits, at least, of some of those :P
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on January 30, 2014, 10:08:07 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 30, 2014, 07:08:12 PM
Today, I found I was able to listen to the entire cycle of string quartets over the course of the day. I don't say that I commend the practice to anyone . . . although I certainly enjoyed it completely, so I do not dissuade anyone who is inclined to try.  I was not nearly so familiar with the quartets as I wish to be, but I had a better than passing acquaintance with all of them;  so that my own listening history with them made the project both coherent and worthwhile.

Here I'll recapitulate the biographical extracts which I posted concurrently with my day's listening.
...
№ 6 in G, Opus 101 (1956)

Fay reports: For the first time since the composition of the Tenth Symphony, he was able to report he was satisfied with something he had composed. (The footnote refers to a volume (in Russian) of letters to his friends, so the statement is probably a reflection of sincerity . . . makes me want to check the intervening opus numbers . . . .)

Sincere indeed:

Quote from: WikipediaOp. 93: Symphony No. 10 in E minor (1953)
Op. 94: Concertino for two pianos in A minor (1953)
Op. 95: Music to the film Song of the Great Rivers (1954)
Op. 96: Festive Overture in A major for orchestra (1954)
Op. 97: Music to the film The Gadfly, based on the novel by Voynich (1955)
Op. 97a: Suite from The Gadfly for orchestra (1955)
Op. 97b: "Tarantella" from The Gadfly for two pianos (1955)
Op. 98: Five Romances on Verses by Dolmatovsky for bass and piano (1954)
Op. 98a: "There Were Kisses", song after Dolmatovsky for voice and piano (1954)
Op. 99: Music to the film The First Echelon (1955–1956)
Op. 99a: Suite from The First Echelon for chorus and orchestra (1956)
Op. 99b: Two Songs from the Music to The First Echelon for voice and piano (1956)
Op. 100: Spanish Songs for (mezzo)soprano and piano (1956)
Op. 101: String Quartet No. 6 in G major (1956)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on January 31, 2014, 02:15:40 AM
There's a lot of film/incidental type music in that period.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 31, 2014, 04:20:57 AM
And I like the Festive Overture very well . . . but allowing that it is a very fine bit of tossed-off lighter music, one sees his point, indeed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on January 31, 2014, 04:30:35 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 31, 2014, 04:20:57 AM
And I like the Festive Overture very well . . . but allowing that it is a very fine bit of tossed-off lighter music, one sees his point, indeed.
Nothing wrong with e.g. The Gadfly either, but it's hardly comparable with Opp. 93, 92 (SQ No. 5), 101, 102 (PC No. 2), or 103 (Symphony No. 11)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 31, 2014, 04:31:36 AM
Exactly.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on February 03, 2014, 06:44:47 PM
FYI

(http://ecstatic.textalk.se/shop/17115/art15/h3820/4833820-origpic-ef370f.jpg)

Available for download now on eClassical; physical release probably in March.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 03, 2014, 06:46:46 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 03, 2014, 06:44:47 PM
FYI

(http://ecstatic.textalk.se/shop/17115/art15/h3820/4833820-origpic-ef370f.jpg)

Available for download now on eClassical; physical release probably in March.

I've been nothing but disappointed with Wigglesworth's Shostakovich cycle. I think it could very well be some of the worst Shostakovich performances I've heard. Terribly undernourished and lacking emotional drive.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on February 03, 2014, 06:48:42 PM
Update: Oddly, this is a new recording of #15 (recorded in 2006) coupled to the same recording of #1 which was already released on a disc with the Second and Third symphonies. I browsed the booklet PDF and marketing info and found no explanation.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 10, 2014, 03:23:40 PM
First listen to this marvelous music (thanks Don/Sammy/Bulldog for the recording recommendation)  :)  This set includes Skriabin's Op. 11 Preludes, and Shostakovich's Op. 34 Preludes.

[asin]B0000037BS[/asin]


And now listening to this terrific set of recordings of all Shostakovich's concertos:

[asin]B0000C6IW1[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 11, 2014, 08:24:48 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on February 11, 2014, 06:55:43 PM
I like this

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515vzjrIKNL._SY300_.jpg)

The only problem is that Vol. 1 OOP.

Mustonen does a great Op.34, too. But (in a familiar theme) OOP, unfortunately:



(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/d0/b5/c32deb6709a0db6d5fcc0110.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 12, 2014, 04:08:28 PM
Just can't stop listening to this set.  All I've listened to the past couple of days.  :)


[asin]B0000C6IW1[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on February 12, 2014, 07:15:33 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 12, 2014, 04:08:28 PM
Just can't stop listening to this set.  All I've listened to the past couple of days.  :)


[asin]B0000C6IW1[/asin]

Mullova's recording of VC 1 remains, after all these years since I first heard it, my favorite for that particular work.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 15, 2014, 06:07:26 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 12, 2014, 07:15:33 PM
Mullova's recording of VC 1 remains, after all these years since I first heard it, my favorite for that particular work.

I used to enjoy that performance until I heard a better performance of what I consider the heart piece of the work: the Passacaglia. The performance in question is Vengerov/Rostropovich. I also prefer Batiashvili/Salonen to Mullova/Previn. But different strokes for different folks.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 15, 2014, 09:19:14 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 12, 2014, 07:15:33 PM
Mullova's recording of VC 1 remains, after all these years since I first heard it, my favorite for that particular work.

Mine, too. Though Daniel Hope w/Maxim Shostakovich is also very fine.


Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on February 16, 2014, 03:57:39 AM
If you speak German (or are in Vienna today or tomorrow), this might be of interest:


(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1Yt6bfhfAB8/UwC1fJ09K_I/AAAAAAAAHcI/iur4c_N7fjo/s1600/WienerKonzerthaus_Magazin_Graphik.png)


Musikalisches Armbrustschießen: Wiener Symphoniker und Schostakowitsch

(http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Portals/0/blog_data/Shostakovich_old3_laurson_600.jpg)
http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/337/Default.aspx (http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/337/Default.aspx)

QuoteNach seinen Vokal-Symphonien Nr. 13 und 14 kehrte der todkranke (und sich dessen bewusste) Dmitri Schostakowitsch in seiner 15. und letzten Symphonie zu einer relativ klassischen Form mit vier klar strukturierten Sätzen zurück. Schostakowitsch beschrieb den ersten Satz, das Adagietto, als ,,Spielzeugwarenladen mit vielem Krimskrams und Plunder – durch und durch heiter." Der Hörer wird nach diesem ersten Satz nicht umhinkommen, die Worte des Komponisten anzuzweifeln. Wenn dies ein Spielzeugwarenladen ist, dann einer der kleine Panzer, Spielzeuggewehre und Juniors erstes Folterset verkauft...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 06:28:21 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 15, 2014, 09:19:14 PM
Mine, too. Though Daniel Hope w/Maxim Shostakovich is also very fine.

I don't like the Hope/M. Shostakovich either. :) I don't think Hope is a first-rank soloist nor do I think he possesses a full-bodied, rich tone. It's just too thin sounding for my tastes.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 16, 2014, 08:30:32 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 06:28:21 AM
I don't like the Hope/M. Shostakovich either. :) I don't think Hope is a first-rank soloist nor do I think he possesses a full-bodied, rich tone. It's just too thin sounding for my tastes.

::)

Well, to be quite honest, I wouldn't touch that Vengerov/Rostropovich recording with a ten-foot pole. :D (And I've tried). Rostropovich is one of the weakest, least insightful "conductors" I've ever encountered.

But that's just my taste, right? So knock yourself out, MI.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 08:48:08 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 16, 2014, 08:30:32 AM
::)

Well, to be quite honest, I wouldn't touch that Vengerov/Rostropovich recording with a ten-foot pole. :D (And I've tried). Rostropovich is one of the weakest, least insightful "conductors" I've ever encountered.

But that's just my taste, right? So knock yourself out, MI.

If I'm reading this correctly, you sound like you're getting defensive about something that you shouldn't be defending, DD. I was just giving an opinion. However wrong-headed it may be is entirely up to the reader. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 08:54:59 AM
Anyway, my favorite performance of Shostakovich's Violin Concerto No. 1 is Batiasvhili/Salonen. This performance trumps them all IMHO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 09:05:54 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 12, 2014, 04:08:28 PM
Just can't stop listening to this set.  All I've listened to the past couple of days.  :)


[asin]B0000C6IW1[/asin]

I'll add that in this Mullova/Previn performance of the VC No. 1, the Passacaglia is just too rushed. For me, this movement should be an anguished lament or a requiem of sorts where every note is considered and filled with emotion. Mullova is fine, but Previn's insistence on getting to the 'finish line' is not.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on February 16, 2014, 05:17:16 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 09:05:54 AM
I'll add that in this Mullova/Previn performance of the VC No. 1, the Passacaglia is just too rushed. For me, this movement should be an anguished lament or a requiem of sorts where every note is considered and filled with emotion. Mullova is fine, but Previn's insistence on getting to the 'finish line' is not.

For me, the Passacaglia should be played as a sort of devil's dance,  frantic and fearful;  the pacing in the Previn/Mullova is almost perfect for me.   But we all seem to agree that chaconne a son gout...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jay F on February 16, 2014, 05:25:31 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 16, 2014, 05:17:16 PM

chaconne a son gout...

That's très cute.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 05:41:50 PM
Well, Jay F, what did you think of the Leningrad? Would be curious to read your impressions.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jay F on February 16, 2014, 06:04:56 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 05:41:50 PM
Well, Jay F, what did you think of the Leningrad? Would be curious to read your impressions.

I like it. But I subsequently got drawn into Symphony No. 8, and its allegro non troppo movement is what's made the biggest impression on me tonight. I wonder where I've heard it before. It seems so familiar, as if I've always known it (Mahler's Sixth and Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" hit me the same way when I first encountered them in adulthood). I don't recall hearing it at home as a child, but it's so arresting, it might have stayed with me, stuck in my memory.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 16, 2014, 06:07:59 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 16, 2014, 05:17:16 PM
For me, the Passacaglia should be played as a sort of devil's dance,  frantic and fearful;  the pacing in the Previn/Mullova is almost perfect for me.   But we all seem to agree that chaconne a son gout...

I've enjoyed the exchange.  I like it when the performers make the case for either interpretation.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 06:10:53 PM
Quote from: Jay F on February 16, 2014, 06:04:56 PM
I like it. But I subsequently got drawn into Symphony No. 8, and its allegro non troppo movement is what's made the biggest impression on me tonight. I wonder where I've heard it before. It seems so familiar, as if I've always known it (Mahler's Sixth and Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" hit me the same way when I first encountered them in adulthood). I don't recall hearing it at home as a child, but it's so arresting, it might have stayed with me, stuck in my memory.

Symphony No. 8 is my favorite Shostakovich symphony. I don't listen to it that much because I find the whole experience to be so emotionally draining. I hope you continue to try and get more out of the Leningrad. It used to be one of my least favorite symphonies of his cycle until I heard that Bernstein/CSO performance on DG that I was telling you about earlier. That really opened my ears up.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 06:12:15 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 16, 2014, 05:17:16 PM
For me, the Passacaglia should be played as a sort of devil's dance,  frantic and fearful;  the pacing in the Previn/Mullova is almost perfect for me.   But we all seem to agree that chaconne a son gout...

I like the Passacaglia on slow simmer, but not so slow that the whole forward momentum seems lethargic.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jay F on February 16, 2014, 06:16:51 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 06:10:53 PM
Symphony No. 8 is my favorite Shostakovich symphony. I don't listen to it that much because I find the whole experience to be so emotionally draining. I hope you continue to try and get more out of the Leningrad. It used to be one of my least favorite symphonies of his cycle until I heard that Bernstein/CSO performance on DG that I was telling you about earlier. That really opened my ears up.

Well, Bernstein is my favorite Mahlerian (as the Penguinites might say).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 06:28:38 PM
Quote from: Jay F on February 16, 2014, 06:16:51 PM
Well, Bernstein is my favorite Mahlerian (as the Penguinites might say).

Like I mentioned before, I never cared much for the Leningrad until I heard Bernstein's performance. After this, other performances started opening up for me. One of my other favorite performances of the 7th is Masur/NY Philharmonic. An unconventional choice amongst the more Soviet-inclined listeners, but I find Masur absolutely convincing in this symphony. I think his understanding of the structure helps a lot and, in general, his pacing just sounds right on the money IMHO.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/022/MI0001022493.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jay F on February 16, 2014, 06:47:43 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 06:28:38 PM
Like I mentioned before, I never cared much for the Leningrad until I heard Bernstein's performance. After this, other performances started opening up for me. One of my other favorite performances of the 7th is Masur/NY Philharmonic. An unconventional choice amongst the more Soviet-inclined listeners, but I find Masur absolutely convincing in this symphony. I think his understanding of the structure helps a lot and, in general, his pacing just sounds right on the money IMHO.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/022/MI0001022493.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

I'm not "Soviet-inclined" (nor did I think you were talking about me). However, the Barshai box set was only $8.99 (MP3), so I bought it. The only one I have on CD is Haitink's No. 8. I've added Bernstein's No. 7 to my Amazon cart, though. Do you like his 5 & 9 on Sony?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 08:03:35 PM
Quote from: Jay F on February 16, 2014, 06:47:43 PM
I'm not "Soviet-inclined" (nor did I think you were talking about me). However, the Barshai box set was only $8.99 (MP3), so I bought it. The only one I have on CD is Haitink's No. 8. I've added Bernstein's No. 7 to my Amazon cart, though. Do you like his 5 & 9 on Sony?

My favorite 9th is a toss-up between Jarvi/Scottish National Orchestra on Chandos and Gergiev/Kirov Orchestra on Philips. For the 5th, my favorite performance is Bernstein's 1979 Live in Japan with the New York Philharmonic.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on February 17, 2014, 03:20:05 PM
I culled DSCH down to one indispensable recording: Shlomo Mintz Violin/Viola Sonatas (Erato). That's the only DSCH I can hear any more.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jay F on February 17, 2014, 03:24:39 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on February 17, 2014, 03:20:05 PM
I culled DSCH down to one indispensable recording: Shlomo Mintz Violin/Viola Sonatas (Erato). That's the only DSCH I can hear any more.

Why?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on February 19, 2014, 11:44:49 AM
Scheduled for April:

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/naxos8573132.jpg)

Ondine is also releasing an album of Gerald Finley singing the following:

Six Romances on Verses by Raleigh, Burns and Shakespeare, Op. 62/140
Scottish Ballade
Suite on verses by Michelangelo Buonarroti, for bass & piano, Op. 145
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 19, 2014, 07:34:43 PM
The Op.62 (no less than the Op.145) is marvelous, do you know it already, Brian?

(Is there anything on the Naxos in addition to the Op.135?)  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 20, 2014, 04:58:42 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 19, 2014, 11:44:49 AM
Scheduled for April:

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/naxos8573132.jpg)


*pounds the table!*  Bring it on, Vasily!!  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 20, 2014, 05:03:20 AM
Vasya!  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on February 20, 2014, 06:53:55 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 19, 2014, 07:34:43 PM
The Op.62 (no less than the Op.145) is marvelous, do you know it already, Brian?
I do not know any of the songs! Will be eagerly listening when it comes out, for exactly that reason. Gerald Finley is, of course, an excellent voice.

I don't know if there's anything else on the Naxos CD. They only have #13 left, correct?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 20, 2014, 06:55:44 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 20, 2014, 06:53:55 AM
I don't know if there's anything else on the Naxos CD. They only have #13 left, correct?

I think you are right.  The Fourteenth alone makes for something of a light compact disc . . . ample room for another significant piece.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Ken B on March 06, 2014, 10:55:10 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 06:10:53 PM
Symphony No. 8 is my favorite Shostakovich symphony. I don't listen to it that much because I find the whole experience to be so emotionally draining. I hope you continue to try and get more out of the Leningrad. It used to be one of my least favorite symphonies of his cycle until I heard that Bernstein/CSO performance on DG that I was telling you about earlier. That really opened my ears up.
You know about Bartok and 7 I assume?

I like 14 best. On different days then 5, 10, 1, 15. 8 succeeds in a way 7 does not but has never claimed my affections too much. All the concerti are wonderful.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on March 07, 2014, 10:44:39 AM
the Met will be producing Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District next year!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 07, 2014, 10:45:33 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on March 06, 2014, 12:15:52 PM
Since my last post I've heard the 14th string quartet (Julliard) and now the 11th symphony, Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, Berglund.

I don't listen to Shostakovich much, I guess because I went through a phase years back when his music was much more important to me.  These days I seem to be looking for other sounds.  But it has been nice to revisit these works.  I'll probably keep at for a day or two more.

Quote from: PaulR on March 07, 2014, 10:44:39 AM
the Met will be producing Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District next year!

Severally cool, lads.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 01, 2014, 10:34:25 AM
Okay:

Quote from: karlhenning on April 30, 2014, 11:04:26 AM
Дмитрий Дмитриевич [ Dmitri Dmitriyevich (Shostakovich) ]
Струнный квартет № 14 фа-диез мажор, соч. 142 [ String Quartet № 14 in F#, Opus 142 ] (1973)
The Mandelring Quartet


Incidentally, Wikipedia was smoking crack . . . claims that Shostakovich began working on the piece while he was visiting the home of Benjamin Britten and finished it in Copenhagen.  I'll go back to my sources and check, but Shostakovich was in declining health at this time, and I have scant confidence in the suggestion that he was jetting around to Aldeburgh and Copenhagen in 1973 . . . .

Per Fay: Shostakovich did spend the month of May (1973) in Copenhagen;  but that was after the Op.142 was completed.  No mention whatever of Britten.  (In April of 1971, Britten & Pears, on their last visit to Moscow, heard a private performance of the Thirteenth Quartet in Shostakovich's apartment.)

Friends don't let friends edit Wikipedia articles drunk . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on May 23, 2014, 07:30:36 AM
Cello Concerto No.1

Slava/Ozawa (Erato)
Han-Na (EMI)
Gabetta (SONY)


Cello Concerto No.2

Slava/Ozawa (DG)
Gabetta (RCA)


Violin Concerto No.1

Repin (Erato; seems everyone hates ALL the competition- Vengerov, Mordkovitch- people only like that little kid Khatch.)??


Violin Concerto No.2

Vengerov (Teldec)

Mordkovitch (Chandos)

Khatch. kid (Naive)

Kremer (DG)???



I've only ever had Sitkovetsky. Just ordered Venergov's No.2 (I'm way too skittish over his No.1- so much hate on this Thread!). Repin for No.1.

No one mentions Midori??
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on May 23, 2014, 07:34:09 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 23, 2014, 07:30:36 AM
Cello Concerto No.1

Slava/Ozawa (Erato)
Han-Na (EMI)
Gabetta (SONY)


Cello Concerto No.2

Slava/Ozawa (DG)
Gabetta (RCA)


Violin Concerto No.1

Repin (Erato; seems everyone hates ALL the competition- Vengerov, Mordkovitch- people only like that little kid Khatch.)??


Violin Concerto No.2

Vengerov (Teldec)

Mordkovitch (Chandos)

Khatch. kid (Naive)

Kremer (DG)???



I've only ever had Sitkovetsky. Just ordered Venergov's No.2 (I'm way too skittish over his No.1- so much hate on this Thread!). Repin for No.1.

No one mentions Midori??

I like this set tremendously!  :)

[asin]B0000C6IW1[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on May 23, 2014, 08:29:34 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 23, 2014, 07:30:36 AM
Violin Concerto No.1

Repin (Erato; seems everyone hates ALL the competition- Vengerov, Mordkovitch- people only like that little kid Khatch.)??

Mullova Mullova Mullova (in the set ChamberNut posted). 
Quote
No one mentions Midori??

Actually,  I've yet to hear a Midori recording I liked enough to enthuse over. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on May 23, 2014, 08:47:22 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 23, 2014, 07:30:36 AM
No one mentions Midori??

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Rl9WP4PATcQ/TkYZsWl3weI/AAAAAAAAAhI/6k6eakSF7sk/s1600/Midori+Ito+Figure+Skating+World+Championship+1996.JPG)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 23, 2014, 09:46:09 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 23, 2014, 08:29:34 AM
Mullova Mullova Mullova   

Yes, yes, yes...and Steinbacher.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on May 25, 2014, 10:22:03 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 23, 2014, 07:34:09 AM
I like this set tremendously!  :)

[asin]B0000C6IW1[/asin]

Yea, that's a good starter. Mullova I just couldn't find for $2 yet... isn't she slash and burn here?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on May 25, 2014, 10:36:02 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 25, 2014, 10:22:03 AM
Yea, that's a good starter. Mullova I just couldn't find for $2 yet... isn't she slash and burn here?
Yes.  As long you understand that the burn comes out of a flamethrower.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on May 25, 2014, 10:38:26 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 25, 2014, 10:36:02 AM
Yes.  As long you understand that the burn comes out of a flamethrower.

How do Mullova and Mordkovitch compare? Mordy seems to polarize people with her manner (haven't heard it) but has a "demonic" reputation from that Chandos recording. (as in 'Most Demonic')
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on May 25, 2014, 10:41:34 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 25, 2014, 10:38:26 AM
How do Mullova and Mordkovitch compare? Mordy seems to polarize people with her manner (haven't heard it) but has a "demonic" reputation from that Chandos recording. (as in 'Most Demonic')
Sorry, I also have not heard Mordkovitch.  My usual term for describing Mullova is that she makes the Devil dance, especially in the Passacaglia.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha SYMPHONY 15
Post by: snyprrr on May 25, 2014, 10:43:15 AM
Symphony 15

Is the question here, Sanderling or Janssons?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha SYMPHONY 15
Post by: jlaurson on May 25, 2014, 11:48:57 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 25, 2014, 10:43:15 AM
Symphony 15

Is the question here, Sanderling or Janssons?

More like: Sanderling or Sanderling or Sanderling or Kondrashin or Kondrashin.

The answer might just be: Kondrashin: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/dip-your-ears-no-88.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/dip-your-ears-no-88.html)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha SYMPHONY 15
Post by: not edward on May 25, 2014, 12:29:13 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 25, 2014, 11:48:57 AM
More like: Sanderling or Sanderling or Sanderling or Kondrashin or Kondrashin.

The answer might just be: Kondrashin: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/dip-your-ears-no-88.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/01/dip-your-ears-no-88.html)
But which Sanderling? (I'm very partial to the Cleveland one, myself.)

The studio Kondrashin is the only swift performance of the 15th that's ever convinced me of the merits of that view of the work; I should give that live one a try.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha SYMPHONY 15
Post by: snyprrr on May 26, 2014, 11:31:01 AM
Quote from: edward on May 25, 2014, 12:29:13 PM
But which Sanderling? (I'm very partial to the Cleveland one, myself.)

The studio Kondrashin is the only swift performance of the 15th that's ever convinced me of the merits of that view of the work; I should give that live one a try.

Cleveland = $$$ :'(


Maybe you can help out in the Recordings Thread? I'm looking for 4,13,4,15... all of a sudden there are too many choices...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on May 26, 2014, 11:56:06 AM
First Listen to this great performance:

Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk

[asin]B002N4DZ44[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 26, 2014, 03:32:02 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 26, 2014, 11:56:06 AM
First Listen to this great performance:

Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk

[asin]B002N4DZ44[/asin]

A great performance indeed, Ray. I'd like to hear Chung's on DG at some point.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on May 28, 2014, 02:03:57 PM
Karl (and others).....it is really good!!  I think Snypps would enjoy this baritone (Alexander Vinogradov)

Thumbs up!  8)

The orchestra's playing is superbly crisp!

[asin]B00I3KAWQQ[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on May 29, 2014, 12:42:17 PM
Third listen over the last day to this recording.  It is outstanding!

Jaw dropping, maniacal, demonically wicked strings in that 2nd movement!!  :o :)  Are those enough superlatives?  ;D

Thumbs up!  8)

*This may be Petrenko/RLPO's best recording in the Shostakovich cycle yet, and there is only the 13th left for release.

[asin]B00I3KAWQQ[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on May 29, 2014, 07:39:24 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 28, 2014, 02:03:57 PM
Karl (and others).....it is really good!!  I think Snypps would enjoy this baritone (Alexander Vinogradov)

Thumbs up!  8)

The orchestra's playing is superbly crisp!

[asin]B00I3KAWQQ[/asin]

You know, Schwarz uses- I think - this Liverpool group (on Avie) for the cello concertos with Lynn Harrell. And, yes, I think the samples of the Petrenko were amongst the best of the regular interpretations I heard (that Currentzis performance being a different approach altogether). Cool!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 29, 2014, 07:44:12 PM
I'm no great fan of the 14th, but the Petrenko does look tempting, especially since I own all the rest in the series. Of other Shostakovich recordings I'm looking at, the Cello Concertos disc with Truls Mork/Petrenko on Ondine and Jansons conducting Symphony No. 6 on the BR Klassik label should be good.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on May 29, 2014, 07:57:52 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 29, 2014, 07:44:12 PM
I'm no great fan of the 14th, but the Petrenko does look tempting, especially since I own all the rest in the series. Of other Shostakovich recordings I'm looking at, the Cello Concertos disc with Truls Mork/Petrenko on Ondine and Jansons conducting Symphony No. 6 on the BR Klassik label should be good.
Affirmative on the 14th although I still prefer the Jansons EMI.  Mork is excellent but not outstanding.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: EigenUser on June 02, 2014, 01:26:35 PM
For those who were asking on the listening thread, here is the alleged Bartok reference reference in the Shosty 13:
Compare 3:40-ish below
http://www.youtube.com/v/aD196YkBYRs

...with this (roughly the beginning):
http://www.youtube.com/v/VSxsvNg692I

According to Peter Bartok (Bela's son), his father actually thought highly of Shostakovich. He just hated the 7th. He said that his father made a comment like "I understand that it is fine to repeat a melody. But such a melody!" The quote in the CFO was suggested by Peter, but Bela initially thought that it was disrespectful to a composer that he otherwise liked. In the end, he put it in anyways. 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on June 02, 2014, 01:51:17 PM
OK, yes there is definitely a very strong resemblance.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on June 02, 2014, 05:01:38 PM
Quote from: EigenUser on June 02, 2014, 01:26:35 PM
For those who were asking on the listening thread, here is the alleged Bartok reference reference in the Shosty 13:
Compare 3:40-ish below
http://www.youtube.com/v/aD196YkBYRs

...with this (roughly the beginning):
http://www.youtube.com/v/VSxsvNg692I

According to Peter Bartok (Bela's son), his father actually thought highly of Shostakovich. He just hated the 7th. He said that his father made a comment like "I understand that it is fine to repeat a melody. But such a melody!" The quote in the CFO was suggested by Peter, but Bela initially thought that it was disrespectful to a composer that he otherwise liked. In the end, he put it in anyways. 8)

I'm gonna say that they were just both Masters of Sarcastic Folklore- which has a similar sound no matter who uses it? It's almost like the 'clunky military' motif, or somehow 'goofball private'? The Shosty is a more solid melody whereas the Bartok is more of a running/rushing thing...? But I see the similarity.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha SYMPHONY 9
Post by: snyprrr on June 06, 2014, 06:21:23 PM
Symphony No.9

Reacquainted today, with Ashkenazy as my zippy guide, dispatching the thing quickly and with wit. I ran across Celibidache, who takes the first movement a minute than most everyone else, but here (5:05) Ashkenazy is as good as anyone at bringing out the undercurrents. Some seem to take this movement much slower, and I thought I heard at least one sample that struck me as too slow (but, maybe in context?). I believe Solti's is the quickest on record, though I don't remember the performance.

The second movement 'Moderato' sounds like the paranoid-knock-on-the-door music, with the seemingly jewish melody wandering about an empty city at night, with danger around every corner. Ashkenazy takes 7:45, and this seems right to give it some movement, but Solti lops a whole minute off, and I believe Petrenko and Rostropovich clock in around a minute slower than Ashkenazy, and I did think that Rosty sounded meandering and without the menace that the quicker Ashkenazy found. Sometimes it's just nice to know what the extant parameters of a piece are (here 6:45-8:45) so we can see what's slow, what's fast, and what's what.

The 'Presto' third movement gives quite varying samples. Ashkenazy is one of the very fastest @2:45 (or under- I think 2:34), and it seems about right, so that I wonder at those who pad this out to somewhat over three minutes. The machine rhythms don't engage properly at slower speeds, and I felt I heard at least one sample that almost sounded half-speed.

The 'Largo' is maybe Shostakovitch's sparest movement up until that point? (discuss) It is notable for featuring the bassoon character, who leads us into the 'Allegretto' finale. Around the solos are these monolithic pillars of chords, like authoritarian party-types, and I think here too we hear the fear of oppression- and you better keep your mouth shut! This haunting enigma lasts only about three minutes, and I don't think there are any absolutely extreme interpretations (such as seven minutes)- most all lie between 2:30 and 3:30.

The 'Allegtr

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 06, 2014, 07:08:00 PM
I like Gergiev's 9th with the Kirov. I also like Jarvi's with the Scottish National Orch. Both very fine accounts. Haitink's and M. Shostakovich's are also both recommendable.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha SYMPHONY 9
Post by: Brahmsian on June 07, 2014, 06:12:38 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 06, 2014, 06:21:23 PM
Symphony No.9

One of Petrenko/RLPO's best efforts, IMO (certainly one of my favourites in the cycle), is their recording of the 9th.  Great performance.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha SYMPHONY 4
Post by: snyprrr on June 20, 2014, 09:11:45 AM
Symphony No.4

Finally got the library's Rostropovitch Cycle, No.4 first up. I had Jarvi many decades back, but I think I wasn't ready for it- noisy probably. Well, listening for the first time today, it's definitely right up there- it's verrry 'Modern' in the early sense of the word- it's got a ton of ideas coming from all directions (like everyone said, but I didn't believe)- it's got outrageous orchestral effects- scales- timpani outbursts- vortex fugues- the tick tock- bombastic marches-

whew!

From what I could tell, Rosty's tempos were straight down the middle, perfect- but, I could sense an even more outlandish performance. And though I found the record very well engineered, with lots of fruity winds, I could imagine what Salonen, Chung, or Rattle- or any of the SuperModern recordings bringing out detail that might have been obscured here (though, I give Rosty all credit here for delivering what I thought was a fiiine performance).

I wouldn't even know where to start...

MY PERSONAL FAVORITE PART IS THE (whoops) flute and other instrument duo on the cool scale- forget where...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jay F on June 20, 2014, 09:36:12 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 25, 2014, 10:38:26 AM
How do Mullova and Mordkovitch compare? Mordy seems to polarize people with her manner (haven't heard it) but has a "demonic" reputation from that Chandos recording. (as in 'Most Demonic')

Hey, snyprrr - What ever happened to the cat?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Ken B on June 20, 2014, 10:15:45 AM
Quote from: Jay F on June 20, 2014, 09:36:12 AM
Hey, snyprrr - What ever happened to the cat?

(http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/pirate-cat-british-caribbean-costume-eye-patch-36078136.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 20, 2014, 10:25:24 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 20, 2014, 09:11:45 AM
Symphony No.4

Finally got the library's Rostropovitch Cycle, No.4 first up. I had Jarvi many decades back, but I think I wasn't ready for it- noisy probably. Well, listening for the first time today, it's definitely right up there- it's verrry 'Modern' in the early sense of the word- it's got a ton of ideas coming from all directions (like everyone said, but I didn't believe)- it's got outrageous orchestral effects- scales- timpani outbursts- vortex fugues- the tick tock- bombastic marches-

whew!

From what I could tell, Rosty's tempos were straight down the middle, perfect- but, I could sense an even more outlandish performance. And though I found the record very well engineered, with lots of fruity winds, I could imagine what Salonen, Chung, or Rattle- or any of the SuperModern recordings bringing out detail that might have been obscured here (though, I give Rosty all credit here for delivering what I thought was a fiiine performance).

I wouldn't even know where to start...

MY PERSONAL FAVORITE PART IS THE (whoops) flute and other instrument duo on the cool scale- forget where...

Slava is good here.  The Järvi is a big disappointment, largely because it was recorded in far too reverberant a space.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on June 20, 2014, 02:19:09 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 20, 2014, 10:25:24 AM
Slava is good here.  The Järvi is a big disappointment, largely because it was recorded in far too reverberant a space.

1) They say Rattle's timpani sucks compared to Slava. That won't do. Slava's timpani's pretty rockin'. But I need MORE!!

2) Generally, I enjoyed the sound quality, the fruity winds,... but I feel I could use MORE!!

3) Seriously, that Jarvi PERFORMANCE seems really good. I can hear the acoustic in the samples (or my memory) and I just don't know if I'm as displeased with the concert hall as many others are. Really? how much detail is lost? Is the xylophone the test here?

4) GERGIEV- aye aye aye people are all over the map here- I don't know how I could pick him in all good faith. I'm just not hearing that "great Philips sound" here. Everyone says he's great but minimizes all quieter passages.

5) No one will flat out say anything really negative about Chung, and I wonder where they say Gergiev is better here. And then there's Salonen to add to the confusion.

SALONEN        GERGIEV        CHUNG

Pick one.

6) Petrenko- this might be the one I'm looking for. It seemed to give me that jarvi feeling without the reverb?

6) Haitink/Decca- I'd be more inclined to try this than the 'live' one. BUUUT, what of Ashkenazy/Decca?

7) Jansons vs Rattle- I've had it with this one... I'd rather go elsewhere rather than to decipher people's comments here...

8) scotch?

So, i waaas impressed by Slava, but i need moreMoreMORE!!!!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 20, 2014, 03:58:42 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 20, 2014, 02:19:09 PM
6) Petrenko- this might be the one I'm looking for. It seemed to give me that jarvi feeling without the reverb?

6) Haitink/Decca- I'd be more inclined to try this than the 'live' one. BUUUT, what of Ashkenazy/Decca?

The Petrenko is really good!

I prefer the Haitink/CSO with the Haitink in the Decca set.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on June 21, 2014, 06:44:12 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 20, 2014, 03:58:42 PM
The Petrenko is really good!

I prefer the Haitink/CSO with the Haitink in the Decca set.

I'm really going to need a 4th by the end of the weekend, haha!! Wasn't the Haitink 'live' just a bit slower (first mvmt.) than most?

I normally wouldn't go for a Naxos recording in this, but I've convinced myself that this one will be great (they always seem to have a 'rounded' top end, or something, as opposed to that glinting pHILIPS top end- foir the xylo and the piccolo parts, very important).

Chung's more expensive

They say Rattle's timpani isn't what it should be

Jansons is too nice (and I couldn't hear the xylo)

No bad word on Salonen

MAXIM on Supr. gets extremely high marks by one naughty Reviewer


Waaaah, hold my hand!!! :'( :P
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: not edward on June 21, 2014, 07:26:07 AM
Re: the 4th, I'm very partial to Rozhdestvensky here. I wouldn't make it a first recommendation for the work, for a couple of reaons: it's got the typical crummy Melodiya sound but with added reverb, and it's a rather unusual interpretation (the outer movements are distinctly slower than usual). I do find the slow tempi very effective, particularly in the finale, where the final climax is like being flattened by a steamroller.

Re: the 9th, I seem to go for the Czechs here. Kosler has been my studio favourite for a very long time, and there's a live Ancerl on Praga which is as good as you'd expect.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on June 21, 2014, 09:02:57 AM
Quote from: edward on June 21, 2014, 07:26:07 AM
Re: the 4th, I'm very partial to Rozhdestvensky here. I wouldn't make it a first recommendation for the work, for a couple of reaons: it's got the typical crummy Melodiya sound but with added reverb, and it's a rather unusual interpretation (the outer movements are distinctly slower than usual). I do find the slow tempi very effective, particularly in the finale, where the final climax is like being flattened by a steamroller.

Re: the 9th, I seem to go for the Czechs here. Kosler has been my studio favourite for a very long time, and there's a live Ancerl on Praga which is as good as you'd expect.

haha!

re 9th- Solti's the quickest here, cracks me up! ;D


Kosler's been getting awfully good press on all fronts lately!


re 4th- I've had Rosty's library copy on repeat for days now. The "interlocking" quality of the music really has me- it just goes on and on. Honestly, it reminds me of Xenakis's 'Pleiades', constantly resurfacing the same basic tempo into all manner of manifestations. DSCH's left hand/right hand "two things happening at once" approach is on total display here. It's such Abstract music, like DSCH is making a movie soundtrack in his head. The real sndtrk to 'The Third Man'?

When they say that Gergiev underplays the 'softer' sections, I almost have to wonder, What softer sections? haham- yes, of course they're there, but, it's still funny. Still concerned about this (especially since he's so cheap)

There are so many considerations to the 4th, I can see why there's no Bernstein/Mravinsky Bible Version to go on (as one Reviewer put it).

I must have the timpani be at least as good as Rosty's though- that could be a dealbreaker now that I'm growing accustomed to his reading (which, to be fair, is there in everything except that very last push over the cliff- put it to 11, as Nige would say)


(man this coffee is good today haha)!! 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on June 26, 2014, 04:33:57 AM
Listened to this yesterday evening.  Great performance!  :)

[asin]B00CX1Z5ZO[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2014, 04:40:49 AM
I think it may be his best yet.  Of course, I've not yet heard his Fourteenth . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on June 26, 2014, 04:50:57 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 26, 2014, 04:40:49 AM
I think it may be his best yet.  Of course, I've not yet heard his Fourteenth . . . .

Karl, it is close IMO.  Even though the 14th isn't my absolute favourite Shostakovich symphony, it is the pinnacle of the Petrenko/RLPO recordings.  I will listen to it again today!  :)

For the almost complete Petrenko cycle, my favourite performances are (in approximate order):

14th
4th
7th
10th and 9th

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2014, 05:00:45 AM
You're certainly right about the Opp. 43, 60, 70 & 93.  And as noted, I simply cannot comment yet on the Op.135  ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on June 26, 2014, 05:09:08 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 26, 2014, 05:00:45 AM
And as noted, I simply cannot comment yet on the Op.135  ;)

I shall look forward to your thoughts, indeed!  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on June 26, 2014, 06:30:42 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 26, 2014, 04:50:57 AM
Karl, it is close IMO.  Even though the 14th isn't my absolute favourite Shostakovich symphony, it is the pinnacle of the Petrenko/RLPO recordings.  I will listen to it again today!  :)

For the almost complete Petrenko cycle, my favourite performances are (in approximate order):

14th
4th
7th
10th and 9th

I feel Petrenko's important enough to at least try what is considered the Pinnacle o fhis Cycle. I will be keeping tabs.




Otherwise I'm in a bind checking out all possible issues for each Sym. Each one has a plethora of different conductors, and it really is fun checking out which conductor takes to which Sym. Currently I'm considering Litton in 10...


ANY SLATKIN WORTHY????
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on June 26, 2014, 03:14:30 PM
Was listening again to the magnificent Op. 135 earlier today!

[asin]B00I3KAWQQ[/asin]

Now listening to the Leningrad Symphony, another great performance!

[asin]B00BX8TZM2[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on July 08, 2014, 12:39:11 PM
First Listen!   Hat tip to Don for the recommendation.  :)

I am simply blown away.  Fantastic!

[asin]B000002ZO8[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Ken B on July 08, 2014, 02:06:49 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 08, 2014, 12:39:11 PM
First Listen!   Hat tip to Don for the recommendation.  :)

I am simply blown away.  Fantastic!

[asin]B000002ZO8[/asin]

Oh that is my favourite! Most people like her other set, and I have seen a number of disses of this set, but it was this recording that convinced me these pieces warrant talking about "the 72".  Shosty's best music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on July 08, 2014, 02:36:38 PM
Another Maiden Listen.  Amazing music!  :)

[asin]B0001Z65FI[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 09, 2014, 03:46:36 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 08, 2014, 12:39:11 PM
First Listen!   Hat tip to Don for the recommendation.  :)

I am simply blown away.  Fantastic!

[asin]B000002ZO8[/asin]

Love this. This is how I originally heard the pieces (thanks to my piano teacher), and after sampling the other recording I went for this one. As much as anything I just prefer the acoustic. Nice liner notes also are a plus in my book.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on July 09, 2014, 05:57:29 AM
Maiden Listen!

[asin]B000GB6PC0[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 09, 2014, 06:40:27 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 08, 2014, 02:36:38 PM
Another Maiden Listen.  Amazing music!  :)

[asin]B0001Z65FI[/asin]

Beauty!  You must see the Kozintsev film someday, Ray!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on July 09, 2014, 06:52:24 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 09, 2014, 06:40:27 AM
Beauty!  You must see the Kozintsev film someday, Ray!

Aye, Karl.  The music was incredible!  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 09, 2014, 07:12:30 AM
Marvelously powerful movie, to which the music (as you can see) contributes :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 10, 2014, 03:09:28 AM
Good to know about these film score recordings. It does seem odd, though, to talk about them as "first recordings", because one would have thought the first recording had to be when the film was being made.

There may well have been bits that didn't end up being used in the film, but you'd still think that it would've been recorded at the time.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on July 10, 2014, 06:08:51 AM
Another highly enjoyable, first listen!  :)

[asin]B000ZJVI5C[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2014, 06:15:10 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 10, 2014, 06:08:51 AM
Another highly enjoyable, first listen!  :)

[asin]B000ZJVI5C[/asin]

Yes!

I don't say I am uniformly thrilled with all the soundtrack music I have heard.  But, in addition to (obviously) the Kozintsev Shakespeare films, Odna and New Babylon are simply first-rate music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on July 10, 2014, 06:28:15 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 10, 2014, 06:15:10 AM
Yes!

I don't say I am uniformly thrilled with all the soundtrack music I have heard.  But, in addition to (obviously) the Kozintsev Shakespeare films, Odna and New Babylon are simply first-rate music.

New Babylon is one I don't yet have.  Will likely be purchased in the next Shostakovich binge installment.  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on July 10, 2014, 07:18:27 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 10, 2014, 06:08:51 AM
Another highly enjoyable, first listen!  :)

[asin]B000ZJVI5C[/asin]

What a colourful, unique score.  So varied, yet it is absolutely 100% Shostakovich.

Love the use of various instruments such as the barrel organ, theremin and overtone/throat singing.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha SYMPHONY NO.3 VIRGIN LISTEN
Post by: snyprrr on July 10, 2014, 07:19:27 PM
Symphony No.3 Op.20

Well, this 30 minute, single movement 'Symphony' has one of the worst reputations of any work by a Major Composer during the first half of the century. I thought I had done well to steer clear of it, but today I realized it was on a library copy, so, I braced myself.

People have characterized it as a psychedelic mish-mash of ideas a'la Symphony 4, or a Brian-meets-Pettersson-meets-CommieHappyPills, which, frankly, sounds like a hoot. So, what's not to like?

As the first few sections passed, I felt fine, like I was listening to a quality Overture,- there were no real melodies as such, just a lot of movement and fanfare, but I found it optimistic and youthful and... wait?... heeeey!!!- IT'S PROPAGANDA!!! AAAAHHHHH- Nooow I get it. What a schmuck! And here I thought it was just an Heroic Overture (well?- isn't it?).

I admit it was all somewhat forgettable and frothy,- but then I'm waiting on the chorus- and- and- and-... hey, I liked the way they started! Then it got all snare drum and sloganeering- it made me think of- oh yea- Communist Russia. So, hey, Shosty got the sound right, haha!!

Well, that wasn't so bad, now was it?

I had Inbal, which, at over 32 minutes, is maybe the longest out there, and turgid it is. Though having never heard it, I could tell that it could be tightened up, and most strive for under 28. This is also my first listen at an Inbal Shostakovich: very nice sound, but the orchestra seems quite scrappy (am I wrong?) and Inbal isn't really holding the reigns here, just letting movements max out on their own. The Presto of No.9, as a litmus test, was quite slow. But, I wouldn't want to judge Inbal by his 3/9 split (yuck- who wants thaaat?).

Well, guess I have to hear 2 next? And 12? (never heard 'em)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha SYMPHONY NO.3 VIRGIN LISTEN
Post by: North Star on July 11, 2014, 12:58:42 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 10, 2014, 07:19:27 PM
Symphony No.3 Op.20
...
Well, guess I have to hear 2 next? And 12? (never heard 'em)
Yes. They're not at all as terrible as one might think based on what people tend write about them.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2014, 03:28:00 AM
Yes, the texts which he set for the choral finales are Grade-C pæons to Communism.  But half of what I read at first about the Opp. 14 & 20 simply dismissed them for that reason.  Which is not a musical criterion, is it?  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on July 11, 2014, 05:46:06 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2014, 03:28:00 AM
Yes, the texts which he set for the choral finales are Grade-C pæons to Communism.  But half of what I read at first about the Opp. 14 & 20 simply dismissed them for that reason.  Which is not a musical criterion, is it?  8)

It's still somewhat disappointing to know that ol' Shosty was a full blown Libtard. It serves him right to have to experience all that horror later!! Siberia might have done him wonders!! Symphony No.17 "The Gulag"

So, I guess Russia in the '20s is like we are now, eh? We're just basking in the glow of our recent Revolution; our Dear Leader hasn't shown his fangs... yet.... what?... wait...

huh?

Oh yes, if you disagree with Sacred Leader you WILL be called out. Bet there isn't ONE "Artist" in the country who has the serious BALLS to criticize even a 'smigde' of Dear Leader's Cloward&Piven tactics. Love live Soviet Amerkia!! Hail to Dear Leader!!

Boy! What a deal!!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2014, 05:56:32 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 11, 2014, 05:46:06 AM
It's still somewhat disappointing to know that ol' Shosty was a full blown Libtard. It serves him right to have to experience all that horror later!!

What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on July 18, 2014, 07:25:17 AM
Going through this marvelous set, again:

Disc 1

String Quartet No. 1 in C major, Op. 49
String Quartet No. 2 in A major, Op. 68


[asin]B0000042HV[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on July 18, 2014, 12:02:45 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2014, 05:56:32 AM
What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Sure, he seems like he's on 'our' side... so thoughtful and all... but- hey- the Germans fell for their National Socialist leader- all of us heart-on-the-sleeve types I guess we fall for all the nice speeches about equality and all, but- pardon- we are just so gullible to believe that the Devil would never use such tactics against us. So, what?, was Shsoty's crime that he was a 'Believer'- just like so many of us? We'll Believe just about anything you tell us if it sounds good at the time.

I would have loved to have known Shosty as a RUSSIAN Composer rather than as a SZOVIET Composer- who knows what russian music would have been like without Statism?

I mean, I do understand that it appears that Shosty did what he could - in musical mottos- to give us some Morse Code about what the real deal was- but sometimes it just doesn't seem like enough- but, what was he supposed to do? Sacrifice his own life and family in a gulag- for what???

Most men lead lives of quiet desperation?


Yea, ok, I mean- I'll give Shosty the benefit of the doubt- at least we could talk music if nothing else?!! I guess i just wonder how he would have developed in a freer life situation...

Still, I find myself slightly suspicious of the Lifelong Public Employee. All I'm saying- what if had grown up in Montana???

MONTANA KARL!!

APPLE PIE!!

CORN AND WHEAT!!

SKY AND EARTH!!

(uhhh... would it still sound... 'Russia'n???)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 21, 2014, 07:32:59 PM
I have to disagree, I think that Shostakovich was the world's worse Communist composer. Only Symphonies 2 & 3 and 11 & 12, and various official works are propaganda, and all the rest are magnificently grumpy and uncooperative and not a good advertisement for the joys of living in the Soviet Union.

He would never have been employed or earned any commissions if he had lived in the West, not with an attitude like that.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on July 21, 2014, 09:01:25 PM
If he lived in the West would he have had an attitude like that?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 22, 2014, 01:58:31 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 21, 2014, 07:32:59 PM
Only Symphonies 2 & 3 and 11 & 12, and various official works are propaganda, and all the rest are magnificently grumpy and uncooperative and not a good advertisement for the joys of living in the Soviet Union.

But I am sure that if the Opus 47 Symphony had been perceived as "uncooperative," it would have failed as a "token of rehabilitation," and his career might have been significantly foreshortened.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 22, 2014, 02:40:10 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 21, 2014, 09:01:25 PM
If he lived in the West would he have had an attitude like that?

Yes, I think he would, I think he was a magnificently grumpy and depressed person (and produced some magnificent music) and would have been as unhappy under capitalism as under communism. Under Communism he had no freedom, under capitalism he would have had no money.

As to Karl's observation, I find the Fifth Symphony as disaffected as the Fourth, it's just that he pulled the old trick of putting new wine in old bottles, ie its traditional form, as opposed to very untraditional form of the fourth. I really don't know why he was tolerated by Stalin and didn't end up dead like so many of the writers and intellectuals of the time, though composers seemed have been on a longer leash than others. Maybe he was adroit at pulling off tricks like the 5th and 7th Symphonies and withholding other works at just the right time to put the musical bureaucrats off the scent, maybe Stalin just didn't understand musical satire in the way he understood literary opposition (or maybe he didn't care), or maybe Shostakovich was allowed to play the role of iurodivyi (holy fool, licensed to speak the truth) for some reason.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 22, 2014, 05:37:41 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 22, 2014, 02:40:10 PM
As to Karl's observation, I find the Fifth Symphony as disaffected as the Fourth, it's just that he pulled the old trick of putting new wine in old bottles, ie its traditional form, as opposed to very untraditional form of the fourth. I really don't know why he was tolerated by Stalin and didn't end up dead like so many of the writers and intellectuals of the time, though composers seemed have been on a longer leash than others. Maybe he was adroit at pulling off tricks like the 5th and 7th Symphonies and withholding other works at just the right time to put the musical bureaucrats off the scent, maybe Stalin just didn't understand musical satire in the way he understood literary opposition (or maybe he didn't care), or maybe Shostakovich was allowed to play the role of iurodivyi (holy fool, licensed to speak the truth) for some reason.

I guess my underlying point is that we err if we are keen to fix a specific meaning to the music.  He was a master of musical ambiguity.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha (((SYMPHONIES 2 & 3)))
Post by: snyprrr on July 23, 2014, 02:26:58 PM
Symphonies 2-3

I just listened to No.2 for the very first time ever (Rostropovich), and, mm, I liked it! I surely could have done without the chorus- it's funny, but there's no getting around the 'style' of singing- it's definitely 'Patriotic' music of some sort. I would have pegged it for Milhaud or Honegger!

I certainly has its Avant-Garde credentials firmly in grasp from the outset, and i felt like I had taken some absinthe what with the coluors swirling around like a cyclone from one thing to the next. In all, quite a fun little ride- I'd like to hear the most outrageous performances- Rostropovich, however, delivered an incredible ensemble and was ferocious throughout, and I don't know how it could be bettered.


No.3 I had heard a puffed up performance by Inbal, but one could hear the tension in the Rostropovich... it does seem like these two want to be on the same recital- there are at least Haitink, Rostropovich, and Jarvi... anyhow, interesting music that I find more (sinisterly) refreshing than most. My only concern is is that I'm enjoying the music in a completely perverse way,... oh naughty!


No.12... 40 minutes? Waaah! :'( So far I've tried twice and gotten to the 6 minute mark! ;) :D :laugh:
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha (((SYMPHONIES 2 & 3)))
Post by: EigenUser on July 23, 2014, 02:34:28 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 23, 2014, 02:26:58 PM
Symphonies 2-3

I just listened to No.2 for the very first time ever (Rostropovich), and, mm, I liked it! I surely could have done without the chorus- it's funny, but there's no getting around the 'style' of singing- it's definitely 'Patriotic' music of some sort. I would have pegged it for Milhaud or Honegger!

I certainly has its Avant-Garde credentials firmly in grasp from the outset, and i felt like I had taken some absinthe what with the coluors swirling around like a cyclone from one thing to the next. In all, quite a fun little ride- I'd like to hear the most outrageous performances- Rostropovich, however, delivered an incredible ensemble and was ferocious throughout, and I don't know how it could be bettered.


No.3 I had heard a puffed up performance by Inbal, but one could hear the tension in the Rostropovich... it does seem like these two want to be on the same recital- there are at least Haitink, Rostropovich, and Jarvi... anyhow, interesting music that I find more (sinisterly) refreshing than most. My only concern is is that I'm enjoying the music in a completely perverse way,... oh naughty!


No.12... 40 minutes? Waaah! :'( So far I've tried twice and gotten to the 6 minute mark! ;) :D :laugh:

I actually do like No. 2. I don't understand why it seems to be so disliked. Sure, it is different, but it is very reflective of its time. Sometimes I wonder if he had called them "cantatas" or something else like that they would get slightly more attention. There are too many symphonies of his that are popular and it is unfair for them to be compared to these.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 24, 2014, 03:41:33 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on July 23, 2014, 02:34:28 PM
I actually do like No. 2. I don't understand why it seems to be so disliked. Sure, it is different, but it is very reflective of its time. Sometimes I wonder if he had called them "cantatas" or something else like that they would get slightly more attention. There are too many symphonies of his that are popular and it is unfair for them to be compared to these.

My enjoyment of both nos. 2 & 3 is unalloyed (with the understanding that, sure, the texts are drek).  I think them good, and completely assured, composition, full stop.  And it is a superfluous bonus that here, we have two major elements in the subset Music which Shostakovich wrote absolutely as he pleased, before the whip came down.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on July 24, 2014, 04:24:34 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 24, 2014, 03:41:33 AM
My enjoyment of both nos. 2 & 3 is unalloyed (with the understanding that, sure, the texts are drek).  I think them good, and completely assured, composition, full stop.  And it is a superfluous bonus that here, we have two major elements in the subset Music which Shostakovich wrote absolutely as he pleased, before the whip came down.

+1 Good morning, Karl!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 24, 2014, 04:36:46 AM
Bonjour, Ray!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on July 24, 2014, 08:46:12 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 24, 2014, 03:41:33 AM
My enjoyment of both nos. 2 & 3 is unalloyed (with the understanding that, sure, the texts are drek).  I think them good, and completely assured, composition, full stop.  And it is a superfluous bonus that here, we have two major elements in the subset Music which Shostakovich wrote absolutely as he pleased, before the whip came down.

Yes, he seemed to have quite a Surrealist bent? Lots of 'free for alls' here, chaotic 'process' music (machine music?) and just plain old experimentation... I'm not saying he was a Varese, but one wonders what kind of Avant he would have written in a free environment- but, then again, just about everyone's imagination dried up the closer to '39 we get (the '40s are full of 'normal' music).

("imagination" for experimentation)***



I made one final push... er... purchase... including both of Lenny's 1sts,... which of course includes the famous 7th... and - you will HAVE to be proud of my pluckiness- I got the A.Davis 10th (EMI), a dark horse indeed which promises to have some decent sonics (Davis has been fairly a good DSCH conductor I think).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha - TRUE FEELINGS CONCERNING 110a- ?? ??
Post by: snyprrr on July 24, 2014, 08:51:05 AM
Chamber Symphony No.1 for Strings Op.110a

Well, tell me what you really think. Surely there must be a lot of flabby performances out there, hiding a lethal one perhaps? It seems as though if you were to get the PC1, you are bound to be getting the CS1, and it seems to pop up everywhere. I'm curious about Jansons with Vienna, eh?

I might make a concerted effort here, but I'm not looking forward to it. Right now all I have is the Lazarev (w/14) which I haven't listened to yet (and the ensemble doesn't promise much).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on July 24, 2014, 09:13:27 AM
I have yet to hear a recording of the chamber symphonies I like.  The change from four individual voices to a chorus, so to speak, degrades the musical qualities for me.   So I would suggest sticking to the Borodin Quartet.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 24, 2014, 09:26:49 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 24, 2014, 09:13:27 AM
I have yet to hear a recording of the chamber symphonies I like.  The change from four individual voices to a chorus, so to speak, degrades the musical qualities for me.

Hearty agreement.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha - TRUE FEELINGS CONCERNING 110a- ?? ??
Post by: Ken B on July 24, 2014, 10:14:30 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 24, 2014, 08:51:05 AM
Chamber Symphony No.1 for Strings Op.110a

Well, tell me what you really think. Surely there must be a lot of flabby performances out there, hiding a lethal one perhaps? It seems as though if you were to get the PC1, you are bound to be getting the CS1, and it seems to pop up everywhere. I'm curious about Jansons with Vienna, eh?

I might make a concerted effort here, but I'm not looking forward to it. Right now all I have is the Lazarev (w/14) which I haven't listened to yet (and the ensemble doesn't promise much).

There might be a lethally good performance. It would be one where the sections play in such perfect unison that it sounds like a loud quartet. That would be ideal.
For Nate's next project I suggest arranging 110a for string quartet. It would sound better that way.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha - TRUE FEELINGS CONCERNING 110a- ?? ??
Post by: EigenUser on July 24, 2014, 11:07:29 AM
Quote from: Ken B on July 24, 2014, 10:14:30 AM
There might be a lethally good performance. It would be one where the sections play in such perfect unison that it sounds like a loud quartet. That would be ideal.
For Nate's next project I suggest arranging 110a for string quartet. It would sound better that way.
:laugh:

Actually, something similar happened last year: I arranged the first movement of Ligeti's "Concert Romanesc" for two violins. Then, I found out later that this was the original form of the piece -- he wrote it for two violins and then arranged it for orchestra as the first movement of the CR.

We played the Op.110a in high school. I think that the faster parts are more powerful and effective in its standard SQ form, but the slow/quiet sections  (1st and 5th movements) were more appealing to me in the CS form. A good-quality "quiet" string sound is much easier to produce with a large string orchestra because the resonant sound takes over the sound of the "attack" of the bow on the strings. Think the 2nd movement of Bartok's PC2, where the strings almost sound like a synth pad.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Ken B on July 24, 2014, 11:35:20 AM
Nate, when I look at your avatar I feel the urge to rotate it 15% counter-clockwise. If I had Photoshop on my PC that would be my new avatar -- with the tag line "Oh, I thought you said statistics."
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on July 24, 2014, 12:13:17 PM
Quote from: Ken B on July 24, 2014, 11:35:20 AM
Nate, when I look at your avatar I feel the urge to rotate it 15% counter-clockwise. If I had Photoshop on my PC that would be my new avatar -- with the tag line "Oh, I thought you said statistics."

I have GIMP on my desktop...an old version actually....meets my very simple needs, but apparently can reach Photoshop levels.
http://www.gimp.org
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 24, 2014, 12:17:17 PM
Quote from: Ken B on July 24, 2014, 11:35:20 AM
Nate, when I look at your avatar I feel the urge to rotate it 15% counter-clockwise. If I had Photoshop on my PC that would be my new avatar -- with the tag line "Oh, I thought you said statistics."

Here you go  ;D

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/may2014/avatar_9522_tilted.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 07, 2014, 04:24:28 AM
The more I listen to the Op.87, the more I admire it.  And I started out liking it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on August 07, 2014, 05:00:47 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 07, 2014, 04:24:28 AM
The more I listen to the Op.87, the more I admire it.  And I started out liking it.

Good day, Karl.

'Twas last month I 'first listened' to Op. 87, and was blown away!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 07, 2014, 05:12:01 AM
Cheers, Ray!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on August 07, 2014, 05:30:17 AM
*consults spreadsheet*

Last time I tried listening to op.87 was nearly 4 years ago.

I do know it fairly well though. Learned several of the pieces in my pianist days. No.4 was the one I did properly. The fugue of no.12 is a bloody nightmare.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 07, 2014, 05:38:57 AM
Quote from: orfeo on August 07, 2014, 05:30:17 AM
*consults spreadsheet*

Last time I tried listening to op.87 was nearly 4 years ago.

I do know it fairly well though. Learned several of the pieces in my pianist days. No.4 was the one I did properly. The fugue of no.12 is a bloody nightmare.

The g# minor . . . I can only imagine (not having seen the score), but it sure is noodly and moto perpetuo-ish!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on August 07, 2014, 05:47:01 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 07, 2014, 05:38:57 AM
The g# minor . . . I can only imagine (not having seen the score), but it sure is noodly and moto perpetuo-ish!

It's not actually supposed to be THAT fast in theory (Allegro), the problem is that it's jagged and knotty. The fugue theme has nasty little leaps, an irregularly broken rhythm and is in 5/4. It's not that easy on its own, never mind when 3 other voices are thrown right on top of it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 07, 2014, 05:50:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 07, 2014, 05:38:57 AM
The g# minor . . . I can only imagine (not having seen the score), but it sure is noodly and moto perpetuo-ish!

Funny . . . since I did not offhand recall that fugue, I first sought a sample on Amazon, and the sample they offered meets that description, but also (for that reason) the profile of the subject did not come into focus for me.  But, I found that I did have the Mustonen recording to hand, so of course your corrective remark is entirely to the point.

Quote from: orfeo on August 07, 2014, 05:47:01 AM
It's not actually supposed to be THAT fast in theory (Allegro), the problem is that it's jagged and knotty. The fugue theme has nasty little leaps, an irregularly broken rhythm and is in 5/4. It's not that easy on its own, never mind when 3 other voices are thrown right on top of it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on August 07, 2014, 10:52:41 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 07, 2014, 04:24:28 AM
The more I listen to the Op.87, the more I admire it.  And I started out liking it.

Oddly I had the opposite reaction. I also started out liking it. FWIW.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 08, 2014, 03:35:35 AM
Quote from: amw on August 07, 2014, 10:52:41 PM
Oddly I had the opposite reaction. I also started out liking it. FWIW.

What Shostakovich enthuses you these days?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 08, 2014, 03:42:46 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 07, 2014, 06:38:26 AM
Isn't it always thrilling to find non-fiction that's written with verve, humor, and curiosity? So many academics, especially, write as if they're doing chores.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 07, 2014, 06:57:31 AM
As many music history books as I read, I can certainly attest that!  God forbid we should try to inject any sort of enthusiasm or human interest into a recitation of the facts....  ::)

In short, yes. :)

8)

However, as I revisit Shostakovich: A Life I find myself yet more appreciative than ever at the neutrality of tone, and the just the facts approach.  After all these years, I still feel (rather than simply remember) what a sexed-up trainwreck the Ian MacDonald book is.

Of course, the key is Brian's phrase: "non-fiction that's written with verve, humor, and curiosity";  one practically needs a microscope to tease out the useful non-fiction in the MacDonald.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 08, 2014, 03:57:13 AM
Quote from: Laurel E. FayMoisey Vainberg's revelation that Shostakovich made a four-hand arrangement of the complete cycle which the two of them laboriously taped in 1952 with a "Dnepr" — the pioneer of Russian tape recorders — strongly suggests that the composer was dissatisfied with his own proficiency in the performance of his op.87. Neither the tape nor the score of this arrangement has been found....

From Shostakovich: A Life, p.325 n68
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 08, 2014, 07:05:02 AM
Quote from: Laurel E. FayImmediately after the completion of the Seventh Symphony, Shostakovich embarked on a composition of a totally different stripe, an operatic setting of Gogol's comic play, The Gamblers. (Extreme emotional and stylistic dislocations between successive works were not uncommon in Shostakovich's output.) The seeds may have been planted already in late 1938, when Shostakovich read about the Munich pact and apparently noted the similarities between the participating world leaders and Gogol's wily cardsharpers.  For his second Gogol opera, the composer set himself the task of setting Gogol's play word for word, without cuts or alterations, as he told Shebalin on 19 June 1942, requesting that he keep it a secret.  Although very much in the public eye at this time, Shostakovich informed only his closest friends about his latest work-in-progress, perhaps because, as he remarked in a letter to Sollertinsky, it was "devoid of any point."  By 11 November 1942, despite the pleasure he professed to be experiencing writing the opera, the composer had realized the task he had set himself was unrealistic;  he had already written thirty minutes' worth of music accounting for only about one-seventh of the opera.  On 27 December, he announced that he had dropped work on The Gamblers because of the utter senselessness of the enterprise.  But in March 1943 Shostakovich told Sollertinsky he was making a piano score and–although he doubted the feasibility of finishing the opera–he was continuing to work on it.  A year later, he played and sang the completed portion to three of his students at the Moscow Conservatory, producing a strong impression on them.  In outlining its weaknesses and the reasons he did not expect to complete the setting, he cited the problem of length as well as the lack of female roles and a chorus.  More than thirty years later, Shostakovich based the second movement of his last composition, the Sonata for Violin and Piano, op. 147, on themes from his abandoned opera.

From Shostakovich: A Life, pp.133-134
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 08, 2014, 07:14:41 AM
Quote from: Laurel E. FayIndeed the more interesting question is not why [the c minor symphony op. 43] was withdrawn but how it came as close to public performance as it did.  The symphony had been conceived on an ambitious scale, as the artistic "credo" of an enlightened modernist;  the final movement, written after the launching of the Pravda campaign, made no conspicuous acknowledgement of or concession to the critical furor.  Those who heard the Fourth Symphony then–it was widely studied in professional circles in piano reduction–were awed by its depth, it measure, its "colossal breath."  In the mind of at least one of his colleagues the real reason for Shostakovich's withdrawal was shamefully clear.  Myaskovsky recorded in his diary on 11 December 1936:  "Shostakovich was so persecuted by the discussions that he canceled the performance of his new (Fourth) Symphony–monumental and dazzling.  What a disgrace for us, his contemporaries."  In 1945, after hearing Shostakovich and Moisey Vainberg give a powerful reading of the Fourth Symphony in the composer's arrangement for two pianos, the composer's student Yevgeniy Makarov was left in no doubt why the work had been deemed unsuitable for performance ten years earlier.  Samosud, Atovmyan, and others present on this occasion brainstormed, exploring options to procure a performance of the Fourth Symphony.  They discarded as impractical the suggestion to renumber it (by then it would have been his Ninth Symphony) on order to avert awkward explanations for its long disappearance because too many people already knew the work.  Makarov remained skeptical about the wisdom of a performance even then.

From Shostakovich: A Life, pp.96-97
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jochanaan on August 08, 2014, 10:29:19 AM
Karl, I assume you've seen the score to Opus 43?  Massive orchestra even by, say, Mahler's standards!  And some have noted how much DSCH owes to Mahler in construction, orchestration, and overall mood of this symphony.  Hmmm...I'm sure Stalin didn't like Mahler either! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 08, 2014, 10:55:50 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on August 08, 2014, 10:29:19 AM
Karl, I assume you've seen the score to Opus 43?  Massive orchestra even by, say, Mahler's standards!

Aye, I wanted to pore over that score.  There's one angle to the size of an orchestra of which I have been mindful since the time I studied Le sacre.  As you know, there are eight horns in the orchestra for Le sacre; and methought, What is there in the piece, which means he needs eight horns, and not four horns plus other brasswinds?  Among other things . . . you know (of course!) the famous passage opening the Danse des adolescentes where there are the irregular accents in the pulsing string chords, and the horns reinforce those accents — and lo! those are eight-note chords.

I had read the story of Shostakovich playing the Fourth Symphony for Otto Klemperer, who was in Leningrad on one of his tours, and who pledged a South American performance of the piece.  The composer firmly denied Klemperer's request to reduce the number of flutes needed (6).

So, knowing what an enormous orchestra he calls for, I wanted to dig into that score and learn just why Shostakovich needed so many of each of the instruments.

That is what I keep in mind, too, in White Nights . . . I have all these instruments, I had better give them employment . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on August 08, 2014, 09:11:02 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 08, 2014, 03:35:35 AM
What Shostakovich enthuses you these days?

I've been listening to the later string quartets a good deal, particularly 9, 12 and 13; as well as the two piano sonatas, the Preludes Op. 34 and the Aphorisms.

On repeated listening to (and playing some of) the 24 Preludes and Fugues I think I started wishing for more variety—almost all of the fugues are structured in exactly the same way (Nos. 4, 12 and 24 being the main exceptions) and some of them even having extremely similar subjects (that 1-5-6-5 thing from No. 1 characterises a lot of them...), etc. There are some gems, I quite like the G# minor prelude & fugue for instance, but after a while I lost interest in listening to the majority of the individual pieces.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on August 08, 2014, 11:33:32 PM
Eh? Sorry, I don't understand how you 'structure a fugue' other than by repeating the fugue subject a lot.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on August 09, 2014, 02:26:42 AM
If you're listening at home it's no crime just to cherry-pick the bits you like -
I have a playlist consisting of:
Prelude 1
Fugue 4
Fugue 6
Prelude 8
Fugue 8
Prelude 12
Fugue 5
Prelude 14
Fugue 14
Prelude 15
Fugue 16
Fugue 24

and Jenny Lin my preferred recording.

The Nikolayeva/Hyperion set was, incidentally, the 1st CD I ever bought (having already assembled a large LP collection) - the combination (that recording, and the CD format) radically changed my listening (and buying) habits, inclining me more towards solo and small-scale ensembles, and away from big orchestral music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on August 09, 2014, 02:30:29 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on August 09, 2014, 02:26:42 AM
If you're listening at home it's no crime just to cherry-pick the bits you like -
I have a playlist consisting of:
Prelude 1
Fugue 4
Fugue 6
Prelude 8
Fugue 8
Prelude 12
Fugue 5
Prelude 14
Fugue 14
Prelude 15
Fugue 16
Fugue 24

and Jenny Lin my preferred recording.

It might not be a crime, but off the top of my head you've lost the connection between a hell of a lot of interlinked pieces. Most obviously between Prelude 12 and Fugue 12, and between Prelude 24 and Fugue 24, but there are a myriad other instances of a figuration in one piece turning into a major component of another.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on August 09, 2014, 02:33:57 AM
I'm sure you're right, but I don't hear the structure in music - for me, listening to music is a stream-of-consciousness thing, I'm just like a tape head with the music running past.

For example, my non-inclusion of Fugue 12 cannot impact at all, my enjoyment of Prelude 12.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 09, 2014, 04:38:26 AM
Quote from: orfeo on August 09, 2014, 02:30:29 AM
It might not be a crime, but off the top of my head you've lost the connection between a hell of a lot of interlinked pieces. Most obviously between Prelude 12 and Fugue 12, and between Prelude 24 and Fugue 24, but there are a myriad other instances of a figuration in one piece turning into a major component of another.

That's a big part of why I get more and more out of the entirety, with increased familiarity.

Separately, I know Ray will be pleased that I am at last spending more time with Золотой век, The Golden Age, Op.22.  Wonderful to hear a number of "pre-resonances" with the (not much) later Fourth Symphony.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 09, 2014, 04:42:45 AM
Quote from: amw on August 08, 2014, 09:11:02 PM
I've been listening to the later string quartets a good deal, particularly 9, 12 and 13; as well as the two piano sonatas, the Preludes Op. 34 and the Aphorisms.

The quartets are wonderfully rich;  I've as yet just given cursory listens to the sonatas and the Op.34 (meaning them no slight).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on August 09, 2014, 07:09:07 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 09, 2014, 04:38:26 AM
Separately, I know Ray will be pleased that I am at last spending more time with Золотой век, The Golden Age, Op.22.  Wonderful to hear a number of "pre-resonances" with the (not much) later Fourth Symphony.

Ahem, Karl.....much more than pleased!!  :)

*pounds the table!*  It had to be done.  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on September 02, 2014, 07:28:18 PM
I've been gaining quite an appreciation for how Dmitri must have been affected by what he saw and heard of the horrors of war, and I wonder of the fear of Stalin- it's all of course obvious-

Question-

Why would Stalin have liked Op.47? Sure, I love it, you love it, but- it's actu... I dunno... I picture Stalin turning around like Joe Pesci, "Whaa?... you think I'm sad or somethin? You think I need consolin or somethin? Whack this guy" Did Stalin think the doom-y opening theme was his chiselled features in sound? I'd be like, "Why you tryin to scare the bambino wit dis boom boom opening?"

I do get a vicarious thrill knowing Shosty was personally threatened by the Big Man of Horror Himself. Surely Shostakovich is the Last Great Romantic Composer- A Free Composer in Chains? Who ISN'T commenting on his music, that writes still in a 'normal' vernacular?

That Op.47 is a Personal Response to a Single Man is just so emotional to me- it is "Music to Soothe the Savage Beast" isn't it? It sounds exactly like it does to put "something" to sleep. Every single note is perfect, and perfectly in place. It is chilling how the two slower movements must be patronizing Stalin's ego, and what he must have thought upon hearing. ???

Was Zhandov a musician?



Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on September 02, 2014, 08:14:42 PM
I believe it's a matter of record that Stalin thought DSCH was an excellent composer of film scores.  At the very least,  he composed scores for what are apparently two of the best known cult movies about Stalin:  The Year 1919 and The Fall of Berlin (or at least two movies Stalin liked a lot, since they were about Stalin.)

Stalin's opinion of DSCH's symphonic output is murkier.  Presumably he liked the Fifth enough to allow it to rehabilitate the composer.

Zhdanov was a political hack/Party bureaucrat heavily involved in the Purges, until ironically he was purged in the summer of 1948 for being too gentle with Tito;  his cultural doctrine lived on after him.  He was actually an in law of Stalin: Zhdanov's son married Stalin's daughter, so Stalin and Zhdanov shared a granddaughter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Zhdanov
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 03, 2014, 02:26:46 AM
On much the same lines as, when Shostakovich was working with Mayakovsky on The Bed-Bug, the poet told him that his favorite music was fire-brigade bands . . . in his first Cello Concerto, Shostakovich included a twisted version of "Suliko," a Georgian dance tune which was said to be Stalin's favorite music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 03, 2014, 09:10:49 AM
QuoteSurely Shostakovich is the Last Great Romantic Composer ...

"Romantic"?  I'd classify him as Modern.

The last GREAT Romantic?  Hmmm ... Well, Mahler was a transitional figure, and Rachmaninov was pretty good, but he's borderline "great" IMO . . . same for ol' Rafe ... Sibelius, Nielsen, Strauss, Saint Saens  ... ummmm ... I think, going by date of death (1897) that the last truly "great" Romantic was Brahms.  That's what you get, Tchaikovsky, for not out-living him.   ;)  Many awesome 2nd-tiers, tho' - Faure, Bruch, etc.

Now, was Shostakovich the last truly great Modern composer?  That's supportable/arguable!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha -SQ 5-
Post by: snyprrr on September 03, 2014, 11:55:11 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 02, 2014, 08:14:42 PM
I believe it's a matter of record that Stalin thought DSCH was an excellent composer of film scores.  At the very least,  he composed scores for what are apparently two of the best known cult movies about Stalin:  The Year 1919 and The Fall of Berlin (or at least two movies Stalin liked a lot, since they were about Stalin.)

Stalin's opinion of DSCH's symphonic output is murkier.  Presumably he liked the Fifth enough to allow it to rehabilitate the composer.

Zhdanov was a political hack/Party bureaucrat heavily involved in the Purges, until ironically he was purged in the summer of 1948 for being too gentle with Tito;  his cultural doctrine lived on after him.  He was actually an in law of Stalin: Zhdanov's son married Stalin's daughter, so Stalin and Zhdanov shared a granddaughter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Zhdanov

Who does Zhdanov look like?? It's funny...

never trust a guy with that 'stache!!


Haha- Stalin told him to stop drinking, haha!!


Quote from: Scion7 on September 03, 2014, 09:10:49 AM
"Romantic"?  I'd classify him as Modern.

The last GREAT Romantic?  Hmmm ... Well, Mahler was a transitional figure, and Rachmaninov was pretty good, but he's borderline "great" IMO . . . same for ol' Rafe ... Sibelius, Nielsen, Strauss, Saint Saens  ... ummmm ... I think, going by date of death (1897) that the last truly "great" Romantic was Brahms.  That's what you get, Tchaikovsky, for not out-living him.   ;)  Many awesome 2nd-tiers, tho' - Faure, Bruch, etc.

Now, was Shostakovich the last truly great Modern composer?  That's supportable/arguable!

For this I'm using 'Modern' for Boulez, etc.,... Shosty still wrote...mm... 'music' (I'm being cheeky).... he wrote 'normal' music, so, I'm including him in the canon-

oy vey---- nevermind, haha!!!!......... The Last Beethovenian?














btw- I almost consider SQ 5 my new all-time fav DSCH work- I didn't know his 'DSCH' theme is incorporated here like in no other work, it is totally submerged. The piece is so WROUGHT in perfection, so dense with polyphony (from the 24 just recently written)... ahhhh... the two opposing themes are masterfully brought together... such a piece of Pure Music!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 03, 2014, 12:04:47 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on September 03, 2014, 09:10:49 AM
"Romantic"?  I'd classify him as Modern.

Well, he is both.  In just such a way as the Prokofiev f minor Violin Sonata is both.

After "Muddle Instead of Music" it was necessary for Shostakovich to suppress (or Romantify) his Modernist inclinations.  After Stalin's death, he did not "snap back" into Modernism, but was able to "thaw" that aspect of his musical personality.

I should, in fact, argue that his entirely coherent melding of Russian Romanticism (of the greatest Russian composers of the 20th c., only Stravinsky really turned his back, so to speak, on the rich Romantic tradition of Russian music) with Modernist awareness does, in fact, qualify him as the Last Great Romantic.

Quote from: Scion7 on September 03, 2014, 09:10:49 AM
Now, was Shostakovich the last truly great Modern composer?  That's supportable/arguable!

Balderdash! 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on September 03, 2014, 02:21:52 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 03, 2014, 12:04:47 PM
Well, he is both.  In just such a way as the Prokofiev f minor Violin Sonata is both.

After "Muddle Instead of Music" it was necessary for Shostakovich to suppress (or Romantify) his Modernist inclinations.  After Stalin's death, he did not "snap back" into Modernism, but was able to "thaw" that aspect of his musical personality.

I should, in fact, argue that his entirely coherent melding of Russian Romanticism (of the greatest Russian composers of the 20th c., only Stravinsky really turned his back, so to speak, on the rich Romantic tradition of Russian music) with Modernist awareness does, in fact, qualify him as the Last Great Romantic.

Balderdash! 8)

finally Karl agrees with me on something! :laugh: Shostakovich, the Broken Butterfly :( :'( :( Beauty at All Costs
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on September 03, 2014, 06:41:07 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 03, 2014, 02:26:46 AM
On much the same lines as, when Shostakovich was working with Mayakovsky on The Bed-Bug, the poet told him that his favorite music was fire-brigade bands . . . in his first Cello Concerto, Shostakovich included a twisted version of "Suliko," a Georgian dance tune which was said to be Stalin's favorite music.
Pretty sure that is the 2nd concerto actually.

I've always wondered what would have happened to Shostakovich if he had been exempted from the Great Terror & allowed to continue writing whatever he pleased. There's enough of an artistic crisis going on around the time of the 4th symphony that it's possible to imagine he might have changed directions anyway. It's sort of fun to imagine a DSCH neoclassical phase, or full-blown serialism (not that half-arsed stuff in the 12th quartet), or Mahler symphonies 12 through 24 (counting the 4th as Mahler 11).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on September 03, 2014, 07:17:33 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 03, 2014, 12:04:47 PM
I should, in fact, argue that his entirely coherent melding of Russian Romanticism with Modernist awareness does, in fact, qualify him as the Last Great Romantic.
I think I have argued before, on this forum, that the Symphony No. 10 is a conscious end to the Russian Romantic symphonic tradition, especially since it shares so much formal structure with Rachmaninov's Second (E minor, huge slowish first movement, scherzo before slow mvt., motto theme presented by cellos and basses). That would make it the last great romantic symphony, right?

Quote from: amw on September 03, 2014, 06:41:07 PM
I've always wondered what would have happened to Shostakovich if he had been exempted from the Great Terror & allowed to continue writing whatever he pleased.
The 24 Preludes and Fugues were written in private, hidden, and only published after Stalin's death, right?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on September 03, 2014, 07:32:08 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 03, 2014, 07:17:33 PM
The 24 Preludes and Fugues were written in private, hidden, and only published after Stalin's death, right?
Were they not written during the Zhdanov era? And hence part of the Second Terror, and not the Terror of the 30s to which the Fourth fell victim.
I think the question of what the Fifth Symphony would have sounded like without the denunciation of Lady Macbeth and the suppression of the Fourth has so many possible answers it is unanswerable.  My instinct is that DSCH would have pushed the symphonic form to the limit and then abandon it.  Do not forget that one reason the Fourth was withdrawn was the claim it was technically beyond the ability of the orchestra.  Or possibly he would have gone on the line of the violin and cello concertos, and written piano concertos for himself.  But it is all speculation.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 04, 2014, 04:48:53 AM
Quote from: amw on September 03, 2014, 06:41:07 PM
Pretty sure that is the 2nd concerto actually.

I realize we should test what we find there regularly, but I checked Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cello_Concerto_No._1_(Shostakovich)) before posting.

Quote from: Brian on September 03, 2014, 07:17:33 PM
I think I have argued before, on this forum, that the Symphony No. 10 is a conscious end to the Russian Romantic symphonic tradition, especially since it shares so much formal structure with Rachmaninov's Second (E minor, huge slowish first movement, scherzo before slow mvt., motto theme presented by cellos and basses). That would make it the last great romantic symphony, right?

I think your case is sound.

Quote from: Brian on September 03, 2014, 07:17:33 PM
The 24 Preludes and Fugues were written in private, hidden, and only published after Stalin's death, right?

Jeffrey is right, it was during the ждановщина (zhdanovshchina), composed from 1951 to '52.  I should post it here at the Dacha, there is a touching account I read in Elizabeth Wilson's oral history book of Dmitri Dmitriyevich being treated shabbily (yet again) by the Composers Union as they "reviewed" the Op.87
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 09, 2014, 07:27:46 PM
I'd love to get some people's thoughts on the Pacifica Quartet's Shostakovich SQ cycle. What do you guys think of the performances? I recently bought the newly released box set as I was in need of at least one more SQ cycle. I hope I made a wise choice.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 09, 2014, 07:32:58 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 03, 2014, 07:32:08 PM
Were they not written during the Zhdanov era? And hence part of the Second Terror, and not the Terror of the 30s to which the Fourth fell victim.
I think the question of what the Fifth Symphony would have sounded like without the denunciation of Lady Macbeth and the suppression of the Fourth has so many possible answers it is unanswerable.  My instinct is that DSCH would have pushed the symphonic form to the limit and then abandon it.  Do not forget that one reason the Fourth was withdrawn was the claim it was technically beyond the ability of the orchestra.  Or possibly he would have gone on the line of the violin and cello concertos, and written piano concertos for himself.  But it is all speculation.

You bring up some interesting points here, Jeffrey. Imagine a Symphony No. 5 that wasn't put through the Stalin grinder? Food for thought for sure. Would the symphony sound conventional, would he have taken the idea of the fourth further, again, makes one wonder. But, thankfully, what we got is a masterpiece of a symphony, but also, a symphony that continues to baffle historians.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on September 10, 2014, 01:36:46 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 09, 2014, 07:27:46 PM
I'd love to get some people's thoughts on the Pacifica Quartet's Shostakovich SQ cycle. What do you guys think of the performances? I recently bought the newly released box set as I was in need of at least one more SQ cycle. I hope I made a wise choice.

While "rediscovering" the Shostakovich quartets via St Petersburg/Hyperion I did some comparisons via Qobuz to determine whether I should acquire all six volumes of the set or mix-and-match different ensembles. From what I heard of the Pacificas they didn't present a very distinctive profile, and I didn't find their playing emotionally involving, though technically perfect. You tend to have fairly opposite tastes to mine so I suspect you'll enjoy them more. Possible point of comparison would be the Brodsky Quartet—interpretively occupying a middle ground between the psychedelic Kopelman Borodins and the astringent Emersons on the "cold"/"modernist" end of Shostakovich, as opposed to the "warm"/"romantic" end occupied by the Beethovens, Fitzwilliams and Mandelrings et al.

Currently I seem to gravitate towards the Taneyev Quartet in 1-9, the St Petersburg in 10-14 and the Aharonian Borodins in 15. (There's also the Mandelring's exceptional performance of No. 12 and the Hagen's ice-cold No. 8.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 10, 2014, 04:19:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 09, 2014, 07:27:46 PM
I'd love to get some people's thoughts on the Pacifica Quartet's Shostakovich SQ cycle. What do you guys think of the performances? I recently bought the newly released box set as I was in need of at least one more SQ cycle. I hope I made a wise choice.

I find the Pacificas technically perfect, and therefore emotionally involving.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 10, 2014, 05:45:09 AM
Quote from: amw on September 10, 2014, 01:36:46 AM
While "rediscovering" the Shostakovich quartets via St Petersburg/Hyperion I did some comparisons via Qobuz to determine whether I should acquire all six volumes of the set or mix-and-match different ensembles. From what I heard of the Pacificas they didn't present a very distinctive profile, and I didn't find their playing emotionally involving, though technically perfect. You tend to have fairly opposite tastes to mine so I suspect you'll enjoy them more. Possible point of comparison would be the Brodsky Quartet—interpretively occupying a middle ground between the psychedelic Kopelman Borodins and the astringent Emersons on the "cold"/"modernist" end of Shostakovich, as opposed to the "warm"/"romantic" end occupied by the Beethovens, Fitzwilliams and Mandelrings et al.

Currently I seem to gravitate towards the Taneyev Quartet in 1-9, the St Petersburg in 10-14 and the Aharonian Borodins in 15. (There's also the Mandelring's exceptional performance of No. 12 and the Hagen's ice-cold No. 8.)

Thanks for the feedback. I tend to have opposite tastes to well...everyone! ;) I have had the Mandelring cycle in my shopping cart many times, but, for whatever reason, I never pulled the trigger on it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 10, 2014, 05:46:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 10, 2014, 04:19:17 AM
I find the Pacificas technically perfect, and therefore emotionally involving.

Thanks, Karl. I also like the fact that they perform SQs from Prokofiev, Schnittke, Myaskovsky, and Weinberg.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on September 10, 2014, 06:51:59 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 09, 2014, 07:27:46 PM
I'd love to get some people's thoughts on the Pacifica Quartet's Shostakovich SQ cycle. What do you guys think of the performances? I recently bought the newly released box set as I was in need of at least one more SQ cycle. I hope I made a wise choice.

Haven't heard the Pacifica set, John.  However, a great number of GMGers really rave about it, so I have no doubt you have made a wise choice.  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on September 10, 2014, 10:04:26 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 09, 2014, 07:27:46 PM
I'd love to get some people's thoughts on the Pacifica Quartet's Shostakovich SQ cycle. What do you guys think of the performances? I recently bought the newly released box set as I was in need of at least one more SQ cycle. I hope I made a wise choice.

AREN'T WE DOING THIS IN THE sq tHREAD? (whoops csaps sorry)(

I'm looking at Vol.1 of the Pacifica: SQs 5-8, plus Myaskovsky 13. What's the actual acoustic sound like in No.5? Is it 'dry', is there 'some' space, or is it 'wet'?


Quote from: amw on September 10, 2014, 01:36:46 AM
While "rediscovering" the Shostakovich quartets via St Petersburg/Hyperion I did some comparisons via Qobuz to determine whether I should acquire all six volumes of the set or mix-and-match different ensembles. From what I heard of the Pacificas they didn't present a very distinctive profile, and I didn't find their playing emotionally involving, though technically perfect. You tend to have fairly opposite tastes to mine so I suspect you'll enjoy them more. Possible point of comparison would be the Brodsky Quartet—interpretively occupying a middle ground between the psychedelic Kopelman Borodins and the astringent Emersons on the "cold"/"modernist" end of Shostakovich, as opposed to the "warm"/"romantic" end occupied by the Beethovens, Fitzwilliams and Mandelrings et al.

Currently I seem to gravitate towards the Taneyev Quartet in 1-9, the St Petersburg in 10-14 and the Aharonian Borodins in 15. (There's also the Mandelring's exceptional performance of No. 12 and the Hagen's ice-cold No. 8.)

I just got the St.P/Hyperion 5/7/9--- the recording acoustic is BIZARRE!!!! I kincda like it, but it can also be slightly distracting. Their No.10 gets high marks for a particularly "flat" reading??? I've just been seeing a little more criticism of them than I'd like--- keeping me from trying 10-15. But you like 'em, soooo.... hmmm....


I just got the Sorrel No.5--- (still comparing to Manhattan)--- well------ it's VERRRY Good--- the recording is luxuriously lush, which creates just the right amount of space for the "Symphonic" lines to weave their sinewy thread. It's almost too much awesomeness---- but, compared to the very odd St.P/Hyperion (their SONY 5 sounds completely different) the Sorrel package simply sounds BIG!!


The reason I say all this--- the Pacifica seemed to have the same playing profile as the Sorrel, but their acoustic sounded a bit smaller, so, I'm wondering how their recording complements their playing. They may have just what i'm looking for.

The other 5 that's been catching my eye is the Acies (3 and 5) which seems to have a very nice woodsy tone.


Quote from: Mirror Image on September 10, 2014, 05:45:09 AM
Thanks for the feedback. I tend to have opposite tastes to well...everyone! ;) I have had the Mandelring cycle in my shopping cart many times, but, for whatever reason, I never pulled the trigger on it.

The samples all just so --- too perfect or something--- I hear no grit--- I would start with their 5/7/9 to directly compare with the St.P.

Sarge seemed to slightly prefer the Pacifica in 5, but I don't know how this translates to the other works. Sarge- maybe you could compare an easy movement like the 'furioso' of 10--- or the similar in 8---- something easy where we could readily hear the differences between the two. btw--- I certainly enjoyed your comparison of 5.




Frankly, the Brodsky are proving that their razor sharp playing along with their superb Teldec recording are still a formidable consideration. I'd do a direct comparison between the Brodsky and the Mandelring. The Pacifica seem more like the Sorrel?


I have four of the Sorrel now. They have so much going for them. They always do things a bit different. Their playing is gargantuan. Their Chandos sound is probably the best of all comers- it's really CinemaScope without the odd positioning of the St.P/Hyperion (which is like 3-D).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 10, 2014, 10:09:25 AM
Take this Ferrari away, I hear no grit.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 10, 2014, 05:32:45 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 10, 2014, 06:51:59 AM
Haven't heard the Pacifica set, John.  However, a great number of GMGers really rave about it, so I have no doubt you have made a wise choice.  :)

Thumbs up, Ray! 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 10, 2014, 05:37:35 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on September 10, 2014, 10:04:26 AM
AREN'T WE DOING THIS IN THE sq tHREAD? (whoops csaps sorry)(

I'm looking at Vol.1 of the Pacifica: SQs 5-8, plus Myaskovsky 13. What's the actual acoustic sound like in No.5? Is it 'dry', is there 'some' space, or is it 'wet'?


I just got the St.P/Hyperion 5/7/9--- the recording acoustic is BIZARRE!!!! I kincda like it, but it can also be slightly distracting. Their No.10 gets high marks for a particularly "flat" reading??? I've just been seeing a little more criticism of them than I'd like--- keeping me from trying 10-15. But you like 'em, soooo.... hmmm....


I just got the Sorrel No.5--- (still comparing to Manhattan)--- well------ it's VERRRY Good--- the recording is luxuriously lush, which creates just the right amount of space for the "Symphonic" lines to weave their sinewy thread. It's almost too much awesomeness---- but, compared to the very odd St.P/Hyperion (their SONY 5 sounds completely different) the Sorrel package simply sounds BIG!!


The reason I say all this--- the Pacifica seemed to have the same playing profile as the Sorrel, but their acoustic sounded a bit smaller, so, I'm wondering how their recording complements their playing. They may have just what i'm looking for.

The other 5 that's been catching my eye is the Acies (3 and 5) which seems to have a very nice woodsy tone.


The samples all just so --- too perfect or something--- I hear no grit--- I would start with their 5/7/9 to directly compare with the St.P.

Sarge seemed to slightly prefer the Pacifica in 5, but I don't know how this translates to the other works. Sarge- maybe you could compare an easy movement like the 'furioso' of 10--- or the similar in 8---- something easy where we could readily hear the differences between the two. btw--- I certainly enjoyed your comparison of 5.




Frankly, the Brodsky are proving that their razor sharp playing along with their superb Teldec recording are still a formidable consideration. I'd do a direct comparison between the Brodsky and the Mandelring. The Pacifica seem more like the Sorrel?


I have four of the Sorrel now. They have so much going for them. They always do things a bit different. Their playing is gargantuan. Their Chandos sound is probably the best of all comers- it's really CinemaScope without the odd positioning of the St.P/Hyperion (which is like 3-D).

I haven't heard anything from the Pacifica Quartet, so my purchase was a completely 'blind' one. As I've mentioned, this cycle has had some very good reviews, but I'm pretty inexperienced with SQs in general to say what I prefer and what I don't prefer right now. Hopefully, in time, I can say with some kind of certainty what I look for in a Shostakovich's SQs, but, right now, I'm still in discovery mode. He composed a lot of music, so I've been busy with the other genres he composed for.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on September 10, 2014, 07:53:03 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on September 10, 2014, 10:04:26 AM
I just got the St.P/Hyperion 5/7/9--- the recording acoustic is BIZARRE!!!! I kincda like it, but it can also be slightly distracting. Their No.10 gets high marks for a particularly "flat" reading??? I've just been seeing a little more criticism of them than I'd like--- keeping me from trying 10-15. But you like 'em, soooo.... hmmm....
It's worth bearing in mind that my tastes in Shostakovich are weird as hell. Popular works like the 5th and 10th symphonies and 24 Preludes and Fugues do almost nothing for me, whereas I reserve high praise for pieces like the Piano Sonata in B minor.

(Also it's worth bearing in mind that my sound system is a pair of £10 USB speakers whose cord is becoming quite frayed)

Quote
Frankly, the Brodsky are proving that their razor sharp playing along with their superb Teldec recording are still a formidable consideration. I'd do a direct comparison between the Brodsky and the Mandelring. The Pacifica seem more like the Sorrel?
I don't know, you've listened more than me. I'd have put them the other way around—Brodsky & Pacifica ("cold"), Mandelring & Sorrel ("hot").

So that I could say I knew what I was talking about I listened to the Pacificas' #3. Their ensemble playing is definitely some of the tightest out there, and there's much to admire in the performance. I guess I just found myself wishing they'd let loose, inject more wackiness into the music—their approach is emotionally a bit restrained—perhaps take some risks. I did not get as much of a sense of "watching the sunrise from the ruins" as I like to. I don't know, there's nothing wrong with it really. Maybe I'll check out their Elliott Carter.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on September 10, 2014, 08:10:30 PM
For what it is worth, my current choices in DSCH SQs among what I have, in order.
Borodin Bovine
* Jerusalem
*Borodin EMI duo
Pacifica
Emerson
Shostakovich
Mandelring
Fitzwilliam

*Asterisks are of course incomplete cycles.
Whatever it is folks who like the Fitzw. find in their cycle, I do not find.  Emerson otoh has always hit my sweet spot, even if over time I have come to like others better.

Tangent:  I found the Julliard Carter to be almost as good as Pacifica's; bear in my mind I first heard the Carter SQs via the Pacifica recordings.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 11, 2014, 01:53:10 AM
The Pacifica set is a dandy on the merits of the Shostakovich;  and the "bonus" quartets are a plus.  The Weinberg and Myaskovsky quartets are eye-openers, especially.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 11, 2014, 04:09:28 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 10, 2014, 05:37:35 PM
Hopefully, in time, I can say with some kind of certainty what I look for in a Shostakovich's SQs

I wouldn't necessarily see certainty as something to aspire to...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 11, 2014, 04:16:26 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 11, 2014, 04:09:28 AM
I wouldn't necessarily see certainty as something to aspire to...

Agreed!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on September 11, 2014, 04:25:43 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 11, 2014, 01:53:10 AM
Myaskovsky quartets are eye-openers, especially.

Dude, you need the complete Myaskovksy SQs.  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 11, 2014, 04:36:44 AM
You know, I do believe you are right . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 11, 2014, 05:03:42 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on September 10, 2014, 10:04:26 AM
Sarge seemed to slightly prefer the Pacifica in 5, but I don't know how this translates to the other works. Sarge- maybe you could compare an easy movement like the 'furioso' of 10--- or the similar in 8---- something easy where we could readily hear the differences between the two.

No.10, Furioso: Like the first movement of No.5, I find the Mandelring are more aggressive relative to the Pacifica and Sorrel. Partly it's a matter of tempo (Mandelring 3:54, Pacifica 4:07, Sorrel 4:08...not a huge difference but the actual effect is substantial). They also dig into the music in a much harsher manner. They aren't afraid to sound ugly here. The sonics: Pacifica sound like they are occupying my small listening room. The Sorrel is in a larger acoustic, a concert hall, and you are sitting front row balcony. Lots of air, some reverberation, making them sound larger than a quartet. Mandelring are somewhere in between although closer to the Pacifica sound world. Which do I prefer? Not sure. I suppose it would depend on my mood, and the condition of my ears  :)  The Sorrel just sounds lovely. The technical perfection of the Pacifica is breathtaking while still providing an emotional kick (I hear them differently than amw apparently). The Mandelring might get closer to the heart of the music. But that's just one movement. I don't think you could, or should judge each cycle on the merits here.


Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 11, 2014, 05:07:52 AM
Thanks for your observations, Sarge.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 11, 2014, 06:35:46 AM
Quote from: orfeo on September 11, 2014, 04:09:28 AM
I wouldn't necessarily see certainty as something to aspire to...

That's true because sometimes a SQ cycle can open your ears in new directions. I suppose certainty is a somewhat dirty word in classical music listening. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 11, 2014, 06:47:03 AM
Depends on the artistry with which it is applied 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 11, 2014, 06:20:59 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 11, 2014, 06:47:03 AM
Depends on the artistry with which it is applied 8)

:) 'Tis true, Karl.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 11, 2014, 06:48:20 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 11, 2014, 04:25:43 AM
Dude, you need the complete Myaskovksy SQs.  8)

How about all of Weinberg's SQs which are now conveniently packaged together from CPO? :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on September 11, 2014, 07:28:24 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 11, 2014, 04:25:43 AM
Dude, you need the complete Myaskovksy SQs.  8)

Speaking of whom,  Amazon only seems to list recordings by the Tanayev Quartet.   Are they in truth the only game in Moscow, so to speak?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: NorthNYMark on September 11, 2014, 08:09:03 PM
I've been listening to a lot of Shostakovich quartets, mainly via Beats music streaming, though I now own the Borodin (bovine) and Mandelring sets.  Frankly, the quartets themselves are so amazing (IMHO) that they sound pretty wonderful regardless of the interpretation; in other words, it's pretty rare that I hear a version that isn't enjoyable in some way.  That being said, I think the Pacifica set is a very good choice for a first set, in that their interpretations are somewhat "traditional" (in this case, meaning somewhat similar to the oft-recommended Russian sets by the Borodin and especially the Shostakovich Quartets), but with flawless technique and recorded sound.  They are probably not the most stylistically idiosyncratic, but that is probably good for a first set (plus, they have the best artwork).

My own personal favorite (so far) is the Mandelring set (which I had streamed quite a bit before buying).  They seem to bring out a more introverted, mysterious aspect to the music than most other interpreters, with an emphasis on nuance (though, as Sarge suggests, that does not prevent them from being quite biting when appropriate).  I find their atmospheric version of #2 particularly outstanding (especially from the second movement onward).  Their overall approach strikes me as less "folksy" than that of most Russians, yet more delicate/refined than many other non-Russian interpreters (like the Emersons or Fitzwilliams, who tend to be more relentlessly driven).  Stylistically, they remind me a bit of the Vegh Quartet (in their stereo Beethoven quartets), but without the latter's intonation issues.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on September 11, 2014, 11:59:16 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 11, 2014, 07:28:24 PM
Speaking of whom,  Amazon only seems to list recordings by the Tanayev Quartet.   Are they in truth the only game in Moscow, so to speak?
Pretty much, although No. 13 crops up on rare occasions.

I have the Russian Disc transfers which are supposed to be better than the Northern Flowers ones, but from the samples I've heard I can't tell a difference
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 12, 2014, 01:41:31 AM
Quote from: NorthNYMark on September 11, 2014, 08:09:03 PM
I've been listening to a lot of Shostakovich quartets, mainly via Beats music streaming, though I now own the Borodin (bovine) and Mandelring sets.  Frankly, the quartets themselves are so amazing (IMHO) that they sound pretty wonderful regardless of the interpretation; in other words, it's pretty rare that I hear a version that isn't enjoyable in some way.  That being said, I think the Pacifica set is a very good choice for a first set, in that their interpretations are somewhat "traditional" (in this case, meaning somewhat similar to the oft-recommended Russian sets by the Borodin and especially the Shostakovich Quartets), but with flawless technique and recorded sound.  They are probably not the most stylistically idiosyncratic, but that is probably good for a first set (plus, they have the best artwork).

My own personal favorite (so far) is the Mandelring set (which I had streamed quite a bit before buying).  They seem to bring out a more introverted, mysterious aspect to the music than most other interpreters, with an emphasis on nuance (though, as Sarge suggests, that does not prevent them from being quite biting when appropriate).  I find their atmospheric version of #2 particularly outstanding (especially from the second movement onward).  Their overall approach strikes me as less "folksy" than that of most Russians, yet more delicate/refined than many other non-Russian interpreters (like the Emersons or Fitzwilliams, who tend to be more relentlessly driven).  Stylistically, they remind me a bit of the Vegh Quartet (in their stereo Beethoven quartets), but without the latter's intonation issues.

A fine post.  I especially endorse your assessment as I highlighted above.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on September 12, 2014, 01:45:59 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 12, 2014, 01:41:31 AM
A fine post.  I especially endorse your assessment as I highlighted above.
Very fine post indeed, apart from the CDCDCD-inducing aspects.  >:( 0:)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 12, 2014, 01:48:16 AM
You've an excellent point, at that!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on September 12, 2014, 08:35:50 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 11, 2014, 05:03:42 AM
No.10, Furioso: Like the first movement of No.5, I find the Mandelring are more aggressive relative to the Pacifica and Sorrel. Partly it's a matter of tempo (Mandelring 3:54, Pacifica 4:07, Sorrel 4:08...not a huge difference but the actual effect is substantial). They also dig into the music in a much harsher manner. They aren't afraid to sound ugly here. The sonics: Pacifica sound like they are occupying my small listening room. The Sorrel is in a larger acoustic, a concert hall, and you are sitting front row balcony. Lots of air, some reverberation, making them sound larger than a quartet. Mandelring are somewhere in between although closer to the Pacifica sound world. Which do I prefer? Not sure. I suppose it would depend on my mood, and the condition of my ears  :)  The Sorrel just sounds lovely. The technical perfection of the Pacifica is breathtaking while still providing an emotional kick (I hear them differently than amw apparently). The Mandelring might get closer to the heart of the music. But that's just one movement. I don't think you could, or should judge each cycle on the merits here.


Sarge

I haaave been quite impressed with the sound Chandos afforded the Sorrel. It's in the best traditions of the house.

You really are digging into the Mandelring vs Pacifica- yaaay!- I can't wait to hear even more tidbits.

As the Poster states- most all recordings are at least pretty good, so, we really are getting down to the nitty gritty.


MY NEW RULE: i will not accept any 13-14 (maybe 15 too, maybe 12 but not so much) from any group under 70 years of age. How can you possibly play them as dead as they need to be unless you yourself are on death's door? (I know, I'm being cheeky- but- puhleeeze- I can't possible see the Manhattan (from... MANHATTAN!!) getting into the deathly soul of these pieces- or any young and vital group, or what have you. And yes, I've broken my own rule- but Kremer ACTS like he's 70 most of the time, so it seems to work!! And yes, the Sorrel's 13 is as 'scary' as one would want...

I'm juuust sayin'


(hopefully the mailman will be my friend today)



BTW-------- HAVE i RAVED yet about the Borodin/Erato 15th? which you can only get from uk I guess? WELL____ it truly has a 'dead' quality to it (just like I was going on about above)- with the longest first movement I've heard, reeeally dragging it out and it sounds absolutely perfectly funereal. The best I've heard so far!!

There's a Kogan? 15 that has a 15min 1st mvmt?!?!?!?!?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jay F on September 12, 2014, 12:33:31 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 09, 2014, 07:27:46 PM
I'd love to get some people's thoughts on the Pacifica Quartet's Shostakovich SQ cycle. What do you guys think of the performances? I recently bought the newly released box set as I was in need of at least one more SQ cycle. I hope I made a wise choice.
Did you buy it at amazon? Someone whose name I recognize from r.m.c-r did and was very unhappy with his purchase: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00M3ECNDI/ref=s9_psimh_gw_p15_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1SR3W7ZSQMCX584SK9E2&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1688200382&pf_rd_i=507846

I have nothing to share about the music, as I have not yet heard this version. I was so happy with the Emersons and the Jerusalems, I have yet to feel the need to buy another set. (I have the Fitzwilliams as well. I let a friend borrow it long term.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 12, 2014, 06:44:21 PM
Quote from: Jay F on September 12, 2014, 12:33:31 PM
Did you buy it at amazon? Someone whose name I recognize from r.m.c-r did and was very unhappy with his purchase: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00M3ECNDI/ref=s9_psimh_gw_p15_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1SR3W7ZSQMCX584SK9E2&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1688200382&pf_rd_i=507846

I have nothing to share about the music, as I have not yet heard this version. I was so happy with the Emersons and the Jerusalems, I have yet to feel the need to buy another set. (I have the Fitzwilliams as well. I let a friend borrow it long term.)

I bought it from a third-party seller on Amazon but not directly from Amazon. This reviewer wasn't happy with the packaging and, since I haven't received mine, I can't confirm whether it's an Amazon issue or a Cedille issue.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 12, 2014, 07:15:58 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on September 12, 2014, 08:35:50 AM
MY NEW RULE: i will not accept any 13-14 (maybe 15 too, maybe 12 but not so much) from any group under 70 years of age. How can you possibly play them as dead as they need to be unless you yourself are on death's door?

And how can you write such music unless you're over 70?

Oh wait...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: NorthNYMark on September 13, 2014, 01:49:04 PM
Quote from: NorthNYMark on September 11, 2014, 08:09:03 PM
I've been listening to a lot of Shostakovich quartets, mainly via Beats music streaming, though I now own the Borodin (bovine) and Mandelring sets.  Frankly, the quartets themselves are so amazing (IMHO) that they sound pretty wonderful regardless of the interpretation; in other words, it's pretty rare that I hear a version that isn't enjoyable in some way.  That being said, I think the Pacifica set is a very good choice for a first set, in that their interpretations are somewhat "traditional" (in this case, meaning somewhat similar to the oft-recommended Russian sets by the Borodin and especially the Shostakovich Quartets), but with flawless technique and recorded sound.  They are probably not the most stylistically idiosyncratic, but that is probably good for a first set (plus, they have the best artwork).

My own personal favorite (so far) is the Mandelring set (which I had streamed quite a bit before buying).  They seem to bring out a more introverted, mysterious aspect to the music than most other interpreters, with an emphasis on nuance (though, as Sarge suggests, that does not prevent them from being quite biting when appropriate).  I find their atmospheric version of #2 particularly outstanding (especially from the second movement onward).  Their overall approach strikes me as less "folksy" than that of most Russians, yet more delicate/refined than many other non-Russian interpreters (like the Emersons or Fitzwilliams, who tend to be more relentlessly driven).  Stylistically, they remind me a bit of the Vegh Quartet (in their stereo Beethoven quartets), but without the latter's intonation issues.

After some further listening, I wanted to modify a description I made in the above post (and thanks, Karl and North Star, for your kind words about it!).  I don't think it was fair of me to characterize the Fitzwilliam set as more "relentlessly driven" than that of the Mandelrings--both are probably on the less-driven side (the Emerson set, on the other hand, is definitely at the opposite end of the spectrum).  Since I characterized the Mandelring set as being somewhat analogous stylistically to the Vegh Quartet (stereo set) in Beethoven, I think the comparative Beethoven cycle analogy to the Fitzwilliams might be the Quartetto Italiano--gentler/slower than most, but with a kind of romantic fullness and lyricism that the Veghs (like the Mandelrings in Shostakovich) replace with a somewhat more reserved focus on nuance, balancing delicacy with a certain astringency in places.  Obviously, such analogies always have to be taken with several grains of salt.  I'm surprised at how difficult it can be (at least for me) to satisfactorily describe musical performances--I have a much easier time describing visual art.

I find that I am enjoying the Fitzwilliams more than I had when I first sampled them.  Again, like the Quartetto Italiano, one can sometimes wish for more bite from them, but when in the the mood for a kind of lushly enveloping experience, their approach really hits the spot.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on September 13, 2014, 05:52:44 PM
Quote from: NorthNYMark on September 13, 2014, 01:49:04 PM
After some further listening, I wanted to modify a description I made in the above post (and thanks, Karl and North Star, for your kind words about it!).  I don't think it was fair of me to characterize the Fitzwilliam set as more "relentlessly driven" than that of the Mandelrings--both are probably on the less-driven side (the Emerson set, on the other hand, is definitely at the opposite end of the spectrum).  Since I characterized the Mandelring set as being somewhat analogous stylistically to the Vegh Quartet (stereo set) in Beethoven, I think the comparative Beethoven cycle analogy to the Fitzwilliams might be the Quartetto Italiano--gentler/slower than most, but with a kind of romantic fullness and lyricism that the Veghs (like the Mandelrings in Shostakovich) replace with a somewhat more reserved focus on nuance, balancing delicacy with a certain astringency in places.  Obviously, such analogies always have to be taken with several grains of salt.  I'm surprised at how difficult it can be (at least for me) to satisfactorily describe musical performances--I have a much easier time describing visual art.

I find that I am enjoying the Fitzwilliams more than I had when I first sampled them.  Again, like the Quartetto Italiano, one can sometimes wish for more bite from them, but when in the the mood for a kind of lushly enveloping experience, their approach really hits the spot.

I keep thinking of the Lindsays when I think of the Fitzwilliam. From what I've heard of the Fitzzies, I thought they play with a Gothic Romanticism, Poe-like and with lots of "relentless" energy (which I didn't really like for 5, but loved for 6). No.6 came off very darkly indeed to my ears. And they really grated cheese in 11!! I think one must simply accept that the Fitzzies are the 'British Shostakovich Cycle' and understand it as such. Whether it "sounds" Russian or just sounds like Serious Music... eh... the Fitzzies have to be counted as the clotted cream of DSCH SQ Cycles- uh- whatever that means! You don't HAVE to get them, you WANT to get them! At this point I'm curious to hear everything they have to say in every work, and I cannot say that about too many others (whether for sound or performance).



Is there any way we can move this back to the proper Thread... errr....??.... I mean, I don't caaare, more Shosty talk 4 Me!!



I have trouble going BACK to a work once I've started obsessing over a new work, i. e. I haven't listened to any of the Concertos since I started with the Symphonies, and now I'm mostly SQs... one.at.a.time.... where will it end? at the beginning!!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 14, 2014, 06:15:22 AM
The Fitzwilliams are the only cycle I know, and no.5 is one of my favourites. Whether it would be my favourite with different performers, who knows?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 16, 2014, 05:01:05 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on September 13, 2014, 05:52:44 PM
I keep thinking of the Lindsays when I think of the Fitzwilliam. From what I've heard of the Fitzzies, I thought they play with a Gothic Romanticism, Poe-like and with lots of "relentless" energy (which I didn't really like for 5, but loved for 6). No.6 came off very darkly indeed to my ears. And they really grated cheese in 11!! I think one must simply accept that the Fitzzies are the 'British Shostakovich Cycle' and understand it as such. Whether it "sounds" Russian or just sounds like Serious Music... eh... the Fitzzies have to be counted as the clotted cream of DSCH SQ Cycles- uh- whatever that means! You don't HAVE to get them, you WANT to get them! At this point I'm curious to hear everything they have to say in every work, and I cannot say that about too many others (whether for sound or performance).



Is there any way we can move this back to the proper Thread... errr....??.... I mean, I don't caaare, more Shosty talk 4 Me!!



I have trouble going BACK to a work once I've started obsessing over a new work, i. e. I haven't listened to any of the Concertos since I started with the Symphonies, and now I'm mostly SQs... one.at.a.time.... where will it end? at the beginning!!

Ma fin est mon commencement . . .

Shostakovich's music is evergreen IMO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 28, 2014, 01:44:01 PM
I love the Violin Concerto No 1 and have a couple of recordings of it. Bought this one (very cheaply) a while back but only played it today. It is wonderful ( I have only listened to the VC so far). I have never been more moved by the work and although I am familiar with it I was on the edge of my seat. Regis have done wonders with the remastering of the 1959 recording and it was like having the artists in the room? This is undoubtedly my favourite performance of this great work:
[asin]B007EVQC1O[/asin]


Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on November 08, 2014, 11:11:04 AM
Marin Alsop talked interestingly this AM about Shosty's Fifth on NPR's Morning Edition.  Nothing most GMGers don't already know, but good to have this on the airwaves.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecadence/2014/11/05/361810167/power-and-struggle-in-a-soviet-symphony
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 23, 2014, 03:24:02 PM
I had a thought today listening to the Violin Concerto No.1. The beginning of the Passacaglia movement sounds very English to me, perhaps this is because I think of a passacaglia as a very English musical form. Maybe, however, the master was actually setting out to write an English sounding few minutes of music as a way of thanking Britain (and the US) for their alliance with the USSR in WW2. Maybe this was one of the reasons why he couldn't release the work, what with the Cold War beginning and all.

Or is this just my imagination.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 23, 2014, 06:22:30 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 23, 2014, 03:24:02 PM
Or is this just my imagination.

This.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jo498 on November 24, 2014, 12:00:57 AM
Why should the Passacaglia (per se or the one in the Shosty concerto) be particularly "English"?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on November 24, 2014, 12:59:49 AM
I tend to associate the passacaglia form with J.S. Bach myself. Who was Saxon, but not exactly Anglo.

Don't think there's much English influence in Shostakovich's music until some of the later song cycles (inclusive of the 14th Symphony as well as the Blok, Blake, Michelangelo, Jewish Folk Poetry etc), which tend to be somewhat indebted to Britten. They were chums of course. Occasional similarities with the Vaughan Williams of the 4th symphony but I think those are coincidental.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 24, 2014, 06:07:05 AM
Shostakovich and Britten both certainly benefited from their friendship.  Still, we could not say that ДШ owes his use of the passacaglia to BB, as it goes back at the least to the wonderful Intermezzo in Лэди Макбет.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha DSCH'S "ENGLISH" SOUND-------------------------
Post by: snyprrr on November 24, 2014, 07:29:36 AM
Been listening to the Preludes & Fugues... so much of the melodic/harmonic content sounds a lot like Finzi of the 'Eclogue'. I don't call this sound 'English' per se, but the Brits did use this mode quite a lot. I think it is just the typical mode for gentle Neo-Classicism. There's some Malipiero that also mimics this Pastoral mode. Still, I relate the exact sound of this Pastoralism to Finzi, in which it is ubiquitous.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 24, 2014, 12:23:21 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 24, 2014, 12:00:57 AM
Why should the Passacaglia (per se or the one in the Shosty concerto) be particularly "English"?

I didn't say it should be, I said this one (or at least the beginning) sounds English to me.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 05, 2014, 04:24:54 PM
I think the third, slow movement of the Sixth String Quartet (1956) also sounds English.

;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha ---PIANO TRIO 2---
Post by: snyprrr on January 07, 2015, 05:19:18 PM
Piano Trio No.2 Op.67

I had somewhat relegated this to the "Freeebird" section- too much played, never needed again to hear- but, after getting stuck on String Quartet No.2 Op.68, I thought it must be time. And I thought I knew the piece...

I wasn't prepared for the ghostly harmonics that open it. And the first movement seemed to overflow with ideas; I thought I heard the 'World at War' theme in there,... such a great movement. And the Scherzo is over before you know it.

Then comes the big, famous slow movement. This was one of the first 'Classical' pieces that converted me: the opening chords sounded like heeeavy maaan, and then that yearning melody catches you in its crossing buildup to that big climax... cathartic.

Then comes one of those long DSCH endings. Can someone tell me if the opening melody is actually "giving the finger"? Listen- it really sounds like that one note sticks out like a sore thumb- or raspberry. Hmm?

The Quintet and Trio go so well together, but I'm not quite ready for the Q yet. - but, the Trio has much that the SQs don't- however, it does remind of No.4, the 'Jewish',... that 'Allegretto' setting that Shosty loved, "biddy biddy bum"... makes one fantasize about a Violin Sonata from 1945.






EDIT:

Not a 'Performance' Post, but, I had Borodin/Leonskaya (Erato) in a beautiful performance. They blew away my previous (flawed) standarbearer, the Beaux Arts (I know, right?- ackkk), though I used to have the Borodin Trio back in the day- remember a robust, rustic performance there...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha ---PIANO TRIO 2---
Post by: EigenUser on January 10, 2015, 03:31:28 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on January 07, 2015, 05:19:18 PM
Piano Trio No.2 Op.67

I had somewhat relegated this to the "Freeebird" section- too much played, never needed again to hear- but, after getting stuck on String Quartet No.2 Op.68, I thought it must be time. And I thought I knew the piece...

I wasn't prepared for the ghostly harmonics that open it. And the first movement seemed to overflow with ideas; I thought I heard the 'World at War' theme in there,... such a great movement. And the Scherzo is over before you know it.

Then comes the big, famous slow movement. This was one of the first 'Classical' pieces that converted me: the opening chords sounded like heeeavy maaan, and then that yearning melody catches you in its crossing buildup to that big climax... cathartic.

Then comes one of those long DSCH endings. Can someone tell me if the opening melody is actually "giving the finger"? Listen- it really sounds like that one note sticks out like a sore thumb- or raspberry. Hmm?

The Quintet and Trio go so well together, but I'm not quite ready for the Q yet. - but, the Trio has much that the SQs don't- however, it does remind of No.4, the 'Jewish',... that 'Allegretto' setting that Shosty loved, "biddy biddy bum"... makes one fantasize about a Violin Sonata from 1945.






EDIT:

Not a 'Performance' Post, but, I had Borodin/Leonskaya (Erato) in a beautiful performance. They blew away my previous (flawed) standarbearer, the Beaux Arts (I know, right?- ackkk), though I used to have the Borodin Trio back in the day- remember a robust, rustic performance there...

I'm a big fan of the Op. 67 PT. I blew up the last movement for string orchestra, harp, celesta, and percussion a few years back, actually. That Jewish melody in the finale is used in the 8th SQ, too (2nd movement).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on January 12, 2015, 06:56:43 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on January 07, 2015, 05:19:18 PM
Not a 'Performance' Post, but, I had Borodin/Leonskaya (Erato) in a beautiful performance. They blew away my previous (flawed) standarbearer, the Beaux Arts (I know, right?- ackkk), though I used to have the Borodin Trio back in the day- remember a robust, rustic performance there...
I don't know what the 'best' performance of the trio is, but the most interesting is perhaps the 1945 one with Shostakovich on piano & Dmitry Tziganov and Sergei Shirinsky. (There's another Shostakovich performance with Oistrakh and Sadlo which might be better, I don't know it.) Shostakovich obeys his own metronome markings for one. (7:07 / 2:34 / 4:25 / 9:30) Sound is barely listenable, but it's worth persevering.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Moonfish on March 29, 2015, 01:23:51 PM
FYI
Brilliant Classics' Shostakovich for 34 Euros (!)  0:)  at Amazon.de
http://www.amazon.de/Shostakovich-Various/dp/B00DUPU6LA (http://www.amazon.de/Shostakovich-Various/dp/B00DUPU6LA)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71NTP1xG9XL._SL1000_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71DGWQKKs1L._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 29, 2015, 02:54:17 PM
Sweet deal!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on April 03, 2015, 07:52:11 PM
Astonishing news from Boston. (http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/boston-symphony-major-label-shostakovich-cycle/)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on April 03, 2015, 07:56:17 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 03, 2015, 07:52:11 PM
Astonishing news from Boston. (http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/boston-symphony-major-label-shostakovich-cycle/)

Great news indeed. Should be some interesting performances. Nelsons is quite a good Shostakovian.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on April 03, 2015, 07:59:05 PM
In other news: this set is coming out quite soon:

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Arthaus%2BMusik/107552
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 03, 2015, 08:01:10 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 03, 2015, 07:52:11 PM
Astonishing news from Boston. (http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/boston-symphony-major-label-shostakovich-cycle/)

Great news, indeed! Would definitely enjoy hearing the BSO in this music.


Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on April 04, 2015, 02:21:31 PM
Also news: The world premiere recording of the unfinished Violin Sonata by Shostakovich will be released soon on Challenge Classics... it's just the exposition of the first movement, but it's a huge first movement judging by it (the expo alone has got more bars than the first movement of the contemporary Ninth Symphony). Schnittke was shown the work, once, with hopes that he might finish the work. But he suggested that it's too grand a scale to bring the tonalities back together in the development and that it would have burst all standards of chamber music, to do so. Still, that which is there (and which has been copied out by DSCH himself into a neat score), is quite intriguing... very much like Beethoven and Bach (foreshadowing the Preludes and Fugues, I find).

The work will be coupled with the Weinberg Concertino, the Weinberg Rhapsody on Moldavian Themes for Chamber Orchestra and Violin (the arrangement of the violin/piano version, not the as-of-yet-lost version by Weinberg himself), and the Hartmann Concerto funebre.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Hiker on April 06, 2015, 12:35:24 PM
Via Slipped Disc: "Happy Birthday, Dimitri" (http://slippedisc.com/2015/04/irresistible-how-shostakovich-wrote-happy-birthday/). I love it!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on April 22, 2015, 07:25:05 AM
Indulge me for minute: you're stuck on a desert island with a battery-powered CD player, a pair of headphones, and one recording of Shostakovich's music, what recording would you bring along with you and why?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on April 22, 2015, 08:06:54 AM
My obsession for the piece must here show itself in the selection of the c minor Symphony, Op.43.  Which recording?

Which recording?

Might have to go with the Haitink/Chicago performance.  Clarity of line, beauty of tone, gloriousness of volume, by turns cool and searing . . . yes, in a pinch, I think that would be the one.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on April 22, 2015, 12:52:08 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 22, 2015, 08:06:54 AM
My obsession for the piece must here show itself in the selection of the c minor Symphony, Op.43.  Which recording?

Which recording?

Might have to go with the Haitink/Chicago (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001BBSE6Y/goodmusicguide-20) performance.  Clarity of line, beauty of tone, gloriousness of volume, by turns cool and searing . . . yes, in a pinch, I think that would be the one.

You've been a good boy and tried Jansons / BRSO (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html), haven't you?

Haven't heard the new Esa-Pekka Salonen (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007VLHPEU/goodmusicguide-20) yet, which I'd like. In fact, I might just do that. Well, not now. It's too late; the better half might disapprove of a DSCH4th at this hour.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on April 22, 2015, 02:46:17 PM


Quote from: jlaurson on April 22, 2015, 12:52:08 PM
You've been a good boy and tried Jansons / BRSO (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html), haven't you?

No, but I very much like his recording with Philadelphia.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on April 22, 2015, 02:49:31 PM
The Jansons & Bayer is a very fine recording indeed. Has he recorded it with Philly? Can't see it on Arkiv (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=11167&name_role1=1&name_id2=56297&name_role2=3&bcorder=31&comp_id=9162). Nos. 10 & 11 in the EMI cycle are with Philly.
Title: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on April 22, 2015, 02:53:23 PM
No, my careless mistake. It is the Tenth with Philadelphia. Yes, the BRSO recording is splendid.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on April 22, 2015, 06:52:22 PM
Some great responses from everyone so far. My choice may be a bit conventional but I would bring Bernstein's 1979 Live in Japan performance of Symphony No. 5 along with me. The reason why is simple: I never heard a more passionate, searing performance of this symphonic masterpiece than this one with Lenny. This is a difficult to symphony pull off well IMHO, but Lenny really nailed the essence of the work better than anyone. Oh, and the New York Philharmonic are absolutely top-drawer.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on April 22, 2015, 07:09:54 PM
I would have to cheat.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71NTP1xG9XL._SX522_.jpg)

>:D

Serious answer:  Mullova in VC1 or the Eleventh Symphony as done by Rostropovich on LSO Live.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pat B on April 22, 2015, 08:36:40 PM
My choice might be Rozhdestvensky's 4th on BBC Legends, but I haven't heard that many 4ths. Jansons and Rattle are in my Pile.

The above-mentioned 1979 Bernstein 5th, LSO-Rostropovich 11th, and Mullova VC1 are all excellent too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Moonfish on April 23, 2015, 02:08:46 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 22, 2015, 07:25:05 AM
Indulge me for minute: you're stuck on a desert island with a battery-powered CD player, a pair of headphones, and one recording of Shostakovich's music, what recording would you bring along with you and why?

Too bad you didn't bring a solar-powered cd-player....   :(


;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Hiker on April 23, 2015, 12:27:46 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 22, 2015, 07:25:05 AM
Indulge me for minute: you're stuck on a desert island with a battery-powered CD player, a pair of headphones, and one recording of Shostakovich's music, what recording would you bring along with you and why?

If I can't have Happy Birthday, Dmitri, I'd settle for this:

[asin]B000000ACI[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 23, 2015, 12:58:03 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 22, 2015, 07:25:05 AM...one recording of Shostakovich's music, what recording would you bring along and why?

The 15th, Sanderling, Cleveland...because its existential bleakness would fit the desert island situation. And because it's my favorite bit of Shostakovich.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/july2009/shost15sanderling.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2015, 03:37:08 AM
Sweet choice, Sarge.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on April 24, 2015, 06:54:06 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 22, 2015, 07:25:05 AM
Indulge me for minute: you're stuck on a desert island with a battery-powered CD player, a pair of headphones, and one recording of Shostakovich's music, what recording would you bring along with you and why?


I've pondered and wondered and thought: should I bring a Symphony? Which one? Number 4, because I think it's the core of all symphonic DSCH? (Listen Magazine: Raw Emotion, Coagulated Blood, Vodka and Gunpowder / The Substance of Shostakovich's Fourth. (http://www.listenmusicmag.com/unsung/raw-emotion-coagulated-blood-vodka-and-gunpowder.php) If so, I know which recording, of course: Namely Jansons's with the BRSO (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/04/mariss-jansonss-dsch-4.html). Or should I think beyond the Symphonies and go with my chamber-music love? The String Quartets surely -- and not a set, so not as to cheat by expanding the definition of "one recording", but only the mini-cheat of taking the Jerusalem Quartet's 2 CD re-issue of Quartets 1, 4, 6, 8, 9, 11 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-80.html) (Harmonia Mundi)?

But then it hit me: While perhaps not the first thing one associates with 'typical' Shostakovich, there's one recording I'd take over all others (not just DSCH, for that matter), and that's his set of Preludes & Fugues in the recording with Keith Jarrett (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/01/dip-your-ears-no-22.html) (ECM).

QuoteShostakovich's "conversation with Bach, over two hundred years" (from Robert R. Reilly, Surprised by Beauty (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/08/find-god-in-music.html)) is a marvelous work that I've cherished ever since I discovered it many years ago. No one - apart from Max Reger, perhaps - has so ably paid tribute to Master Bach. In this troubled Russian is unequaled in this 20th-century pendant to the German master's Well-Tempered Clavier. It was my entry to Shostakovich's more acerbic works. I could - and still can - listen to it over and over again.

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000006MTX.01.L.jpg)
D. Shostakovich, 24 Preludes & Fugues op. 87,
Keith Jarrett
(ECM 1469/70)

(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000006MTX/goodmusicguide-20)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2015, 11:19:04 AM
Dadgummit . . . I really don't need another set of the Op.87. But learning that you think so very highly of this set, Jens, is another strong data point.  (An old friend of mine in Philadelphia, who back in the day studied IIRC with Leo Ornstein, also prizes this recording above all others.)  Well, I've found a nicely-priced used set, so the risk::reward profile is well acceptable.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2015, 11:29:39 AM
Quote from: North Star on April 22, 2015, 02:49:31 PM
The Jansons & Bayer is a very fine recording indeed. Has he recorded it with Philly? Can't see it on Arkiv (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=11167&name_role1=1&name_id2=56297&name_role2=3&bcorder=31&comp_id=9162). Nos. 10 & 11 in the EMI cycle are with Philly.

Hmmm, № 11 with Phila, too?...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on April 24, 2015, 11:59:31 AM
I have mentioned this before offhandedly, but every time I hear Bartok's Sonata for 2 Pianos and Percussion, the opening of the third movement sounds like a dead ringer for oone passage in DSCH's 14th Symphony.  Granted, the similarities in instrumentation may account for some of it, but it sounds as if Dmitri just leaned over, cut and pasted that passage in his own work.
1) Is it just my imagination?
2) How well did Dmitri know Bela's output?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on April 24, 2015, 12:08:03 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 24, 2015, 11:29:39 AM
Hmmm, № 11 with Phila, too?...
Yes, and the first Jazz Suite, the second waltz from Jazz Suite no. 2, and Tahiti Trot.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2015, 02:31:38 PM
Quote from: North Star on April 24, 2015, 12:08:03 PM
Yes, and the first Jazz Suite, the second waltz from Jazz Suite no. 2, and Tahiti Trot.

Found a cheap used copy of that 'un, too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on April 24, 2015, 02:41:49 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 24, 2015, 02:31:38 PM
Found a cheap used copy of that 'un, too.
I thought you didn't care for those pieces - and would it have been a better deal to just get the box, and donate the single(s) you had? I know, you're saving for the Hyperion Brahms box.  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2015, 02:44:39 PM
I have so much of the rest of the Jansons set, the box would not make sense.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2015, 02:46:29 PM
Quote from: North Star on April 22, 2015, 02:49:31 PM
The Jansons & Bayer is a very fine recording indeed.

Very tasty!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on April 24, 2015, 02:49:45 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 24, 2015, 11:59:31 AM
I have mentioned this before offhandedly, but every time I hear Bartok's Sonata for 2 Pianos and Percussion, the opening of the third movement sounds like a dead ringer for oone passage in DSCH's 14th Symphony.  Granted, the similarities in instrumentation may account for some of it, but it sounds as if Dmitri just leaned over, cut and pasted that passage in his own work.
1) Is it just my imagination?
2) How well did Dmitri know Bela's output?

Payback for the S7/CfO business, I imagine.  8)

Quote from: karlhenning on April 24, 2015, 02:44:39 PM
I have so much of the rest of the Jansons set, the box would not make sense.
Alright. The jazz suite and Tahiti Trot are nice enough. Should revisit them, actually.
Title: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2015, 05:35:48 PM
There's one passage in the third movement of the Fourth where it is clear (since I've listened to the twain tonight) that Haitink leads the passage at a slower tempo than does Jansons, but it still works, still speaks. Both of them, splendid accounts of a great piece.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on April 24, 2015, 06:10:21 PM
Not to digress from discussion of the magnificent Fourth - which IIRC Shostakovich thought was the greatest of his symphonies - but last week I heard Andris Nelsons and the Boston Symphony Orchestra in a terrific preview of their upcoming Shostakovich cycle for Deutsche Grammophon:

http://seenandheard-international.com/2015/04/at-carnegie-hall-nelsons-heralds-a-new-era-for-boston/?doing_wp_cron=1429923553.9634699821472167968750

Karl, lucky you!

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Bogey on April 26, 2015, 03:15:35 PM
Tao be released on the 28 of this month: (Blu-Ray Box Set)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81S8jmo8oFL._SL1500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha EMERSON RANT
Post by: snyprrr on April 26, 2015, 06:31:44 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 24, 2015, 05:35:48 PM
There's one passage in the third movement of the Fourth where it is clear (since I've listened to the twain tonight) that Haitink leads the passage at a slower tempo than does Jansons, but it still works, still speaks. Both of them, splendid accounts of a great piece.

I think I have to agree on the 4th as the DIDisc,... it's the most abstract, busy,... to keep one busy for years...aeons...yawning chasms of time...

No, SQ disc really seems to do it,... by default I'd have to go with the Emerson disc with eith 4-6, or the one with 7-10, not because of the playing but simply that they are the only ones that stuffed with music.

Frankly, karl, I'm quite ready to go on an all out Emerson attack rant. You'll remember I was hailing their Op.73 a few months ago when I first reacquired their Cycle, mainly because their blazingly fast finale opens with such a glorious cello contribution from Finkel. But then I listened again on an Op.73 binge the other day, and here's the rub. Their 'Adagio' is so quick that all emotion is clipped out of existence, thus leading to a finale that now sounds just rushed to me. 8:16 is just to quick (just as the Borodin's 11:01 is just too slow). And, yes, Karl, no, the Emerson have absolutely no rustic, folk quality at all here, Russian, or not. The are playing as "Professors of Musicology", and, at least I, hear it. And, please, one listen to the Taneyev, or Eder, or even the dreaded Borodin (I'm k.i.d.d.i.n.g.) impresses the lack of context in the Emerson reading. Check out the Allegri's performance for an example ofaband whose credentials probably can't be questioned, who imbue the notes with a HUMANITY that is utterlyliterally missingintheEmersontake (wow space bar 000Karl what did you do?????)

This was further corroborated by a first listen to the Emerson's Op83, which I had hitherto dismissed out of hand, but had to of course check against my vain arrogance, but, to no avail as the Emerson refused to give the 'Andantino' any pathos- again, if you're going to play it at the quick extreme (4:30; as opposed to the slow extreme- 6:30), you have to have a special tension, but the Emerson are so quick as to render any expression hopelessly rushing after the next train as it's already left the station.


ok, now that I got that off my chest...

I'm down to the Emerson only really disappointing in 3, 4, and 8, and maybe 14- all guilty of being flippant and glib, Matt Lauer. Just the facts just doesn't work here- in 11-13, yes!!, here, no. That's why many think that 13 is their highlight- because it's so "third person"- Emerson and Arditti known for that "perfect playing" thing, not conducive to "gypsy".style.??? ??? ???

See? I'm even giving them credit for a very poised Op.101 :-*.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 01:26:02 PM
Shostakovich: Symphony No 10          BBC Scottish SO/Runnicles [Live Sep-28-2014]

From BBC Music Magazine May 2015

Hmm, a first for the 10th! I like it!  0:)
Slowly venturing into the soundscape of Shostakovich. Previously I had listened to the 7th (Barshai forces) [and not the 5th] which I did not take to very much at all. This symphony was quite different with its slow steady progression and build-up of power. The 7th sounded like a mediocre high school orchestra that were having a great time. This work was very different in its scope.  It seems like Shostakovich has a weakness for solo wind instruments expressing feelings. I kept thinking about a poor withering plant out on the everlasting steppes for some odd reason. Well, I guess I should listen to it again and then move on some other of his works!  :)

(http://cdn.classical-music.com/sites/default/files/uploads/131069/300x300xMusicUK_282CD_cover_cmyk.jpg.pagespeed.ic.yrJIoBtSK0.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2015, 01:36:43 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 01:26:02 PM
Shostakovich: Symphony No 10          BBC Scottish SO/Runnicles [Live Sep-28-2014]

From BBC Music Magazine May 2015

Hmm, a first for the 10th! I like it!  0:)

Excellent!  I was made a fan of the Tenth for life by hearing the Cleveland Orchestra play the piece in the College of Wooster's McGaw Chapel, back when.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 04, 2015, 02:09:35 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 01:26:02 PM
Shostakovich: Symphony No 10          BBC Scottish SO/Runnicles [Live Sep-28-2014]

From BBC Music Magazine May 2015

Hmm, a first for the 10th! I like it!  0:)
Slowly venturing into the soundscape of Shostakovich. Previously I had listened to the 7th (Barshai forces) [and not the 5th] which I did not take to very much at all. This symphony was quite different with its slow steady progression and build-up of power. The 7th sounded like a mediocre high school orchestra that were having a great time. This work was very different in its scope.  It seems like Shostakovich has a weakness for solo wind instruments expressing feelings. I kept thinking about a poor withering plant out on the everlasting steppes for some odd reason. Well, I guess I should listen to it again and then move on some other of his works!  :)

(http://cdn.classical-music.com/sites/default/files/uploads/131069/300x300xMusicUK_282CD_cover_cmyk.jpg.pagespeed.ic.yrJIoBtSK0.jpg)

One performance that may change your perception of the 7th is Lenny's with the CSO on DG. Essential recording.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on May 04, 2015, 02:18:00 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 01:26:02 PM
Shostakovich: Symphony No 10          BBC Scottish SO/Runnicles [Live Sep-28-2014]

From BBC Music Magazine May 2015

Hmm, a first for the 10th! I like it!  0:)
Slowly venturing into the soundscape of Shostakovich. Previously I had listened to the 7th (Barshai forces) [and not the 5th] which I did not take to very much at all. This symphony was quite different with its slow steady progression and build-up of power. The 7th sounded like a mediocre high school orchestra that were having a great time. This work was very different in its scope.  It seems like Shostakovich has a weakness for solo wind instruments expressing feelings. I kept thinking about a poor withering plant out on the everlasting steppes for some odd reason. Well, I guess I should listen to it again and then move on some other of his works!  :)

(http://cdn.classical-music.com/sites/default/files/uploads/131069/300x300xMusicUK_282CD_cover_cmyk.jpg.pagespeed.ic.yrJIoBtSK0.jpg)

It is a good version of the 10th;  I got it the other day.

Available at newstands today.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Cato on May 04, 2015, 02:24:55 PM
I am still a great fan of this one: the 1967 recording on DGG with Karajan conducting.

[asin]B00000E4HH[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 02:55:29 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 04, 2015, 02:18:00 PM
It is a good version of the 10th;  I got it the other day.

Available at newstands today.

I was quite impressed with Runnicles and the BBC Scottish SO forces. In addition, the recordings was very clear making it even more immediate in terms of a listening experience. I have been quite impressed with the BBC Music Magazine disks as I was not expecting much at all. In contrast I have had a great time with them over the last four months since I started subscribing to the magazine. Great stuff. I am sure there will be a downer in the batch at one point.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 02:58:45 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2015, 01:36:43 PM
Excellent!  I was made a fan of the Tenth for life by hearing the Cleveland Orchestra play the piece in the College of Wooster's McGaw Chapel, back when.

I can see how one becomes attached to the 10th...   :)

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 04, 2015, 02:09:35 PM
One performance that may change your perception of the 7th is Lenny's with the CSO on DG. Essential recording.

I definitely need to revisit the 7th. So the Bernstein/CSO bring forward a different soundscape compared to Barshai?

Quote from: Cato on May 04, 2015, 02:24:55 PM
I am still a great fan of this one: the 1967 recording on DGG with Karajan conducting.

[asin]B00000E4HH[/asin]


I am looking forward to sampling these.  8)     So many renditions to choose from. What do you think about Haitink or Rostropovich's performances of the 10th?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 03:00:59 PM
Hmm, clearly there a plenty of Shostakovich fans here at GMG!!! 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Cato on May 04, 2015, 03:27:20 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 02:58:45 PM


I am looking forward to sampling these.  8)     So many renditions to choose from. What do you think about Haitink or Rostropovich's performances of the 10th?

Different, but excellent!  The Karajan - I would need to listen again to refresh my memory - perhaps brings out the bleak, wandering in the desert aspects a little better.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on May 04, 2015, 03:30:44 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 04, 2015, 03:27:20 PM
Different, but excellent!  The Karajan - I would need to listen again to refresh my memory - perhaps brings out the bleak, wandering in the desert aspects a little better.

I like that (earlier) Karajan performance, too.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 03:31:06 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 04, 2015, 03:27:20 PM
Different, but excellent!  The Karajan - I would need to listen again to refresh my memory - perhaps brings out the bleak, wandering in the desert aspects a little better.

Sounds like great listening for the upcoming summer months here in California...      :-X  ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 04, 2015, 03:32:03 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 02:58:45 PMI definitely need to revisit the 7th. So the Bernstein/CSO bring forward a different soundscape compared to Barshai?

Barshai's account of the 7th doesn't hold a candle to Bernstein's. There's a tragic element in Bernstein's interpretation that seems to hit the nail on the head. The slower sections that call for a more mournful feeling have never sounded more poignant than they do under Lenny. Oh, and those awesome explosive moments completely shatter the ground with a grand fury. Not to be missed, Peter. My highest recommendation.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 03:39:20 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 04, 2015, 03:32:03 PM
Barshai's account of the 7th doesn't hold a candle to Bernstein's. There's a tragic element in Bernstein's interpretation that seems to hit the nail on the head. The slower sections that call for a more mournful feeling have never sounded more poignant than they do under Lenny. Oh, and those awesome explosive moments completely shatter the ground with a grand fury. Not to be missed, Peter. My highest recommendation.

Ahh, you tempter! How can I possibly resist it after such a delicious description of the performance? The only thing that holds me back is that expect the DG Bernstein 2 set to be released sometime at the end of the year.  Ha ha!   Hmmmmm...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 04, 2015, 04:02:02 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 03:39:20 PM
Ahh, you tempter! How can I possibly resist it after such a delicious description of the performance? The only thing that holds me back is that expect the DG Bernstein 2 set to be released sometime at the end of the year.  Ha ha!   Hmmmmm...

;D It's been reissued of course:

[asin]B0013816GU[/asin]

I wrote a description of what I was listening to when I had Shostakovich as my avatar and I think this statement aptly refers to this Bernstein performance and the music therein: "Harrowing cries across a war-torn landscape."

Good luck in resisting the temptation, Peter. >:D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on May 04, 2015, 04:21:12 PM
Bernstein's 7th is definitely one of, if not, the best readings of the piece.  One of my favorite sections of it is the transition out of the 'bolero-esque' section.  It's almost like it is full of pent up "energy" that needs to be let go.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 04:32:51 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 04, 2015, 04:02:02 PM
;D It's been reissued of course:

[asin]B0013816GU[/asin]

I wrote a description of what I was listening to when I had Shostakovich as my avatar and I think this statement aptly refers to this Bernstein performance and the music therein: "Harrowing cries across a war-torn landscape."

Good luck in resisting the temptation, Peter. >:D

Arrgh, somebody snatched up the affordable (VG) copy.    >:(

How is Bernstein's performance of the 7th with the NYP?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 04, 2015, 04:34:59 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 04:32:51 PM
Arrgh, somebody snatched up the affordable (VG) copy.    >:(

How is Bernstein's performance of the 7th with the NYP?

It's not as good as his CSO performance. The CSO performance of the 7th is the one you need. The temptation continues... >:D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on May 04, 2015, 04:36:13 PM
"This performance (with the NYPO) is not the one you are looking for"

The CD is fabulous.  The reading of the 1st isn't bad either....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 04:40:47 PM
(http://images.clipartpanda.com/thank-you-smiley-animated-scratch-head02-idea-animated-animation-smiley-emoticon-000415-large.gif)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PaulR on May 04, 2015, 04:46:48 PM
The CSO recording is totally worth $13 (including the shipping) found on the marketplace...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 04, 2015, 04:55:43 PM
Quote from: PaulR on May 04, 2015, 04:46:48 PM
The CSO recording is totally worth $13 (including the shipping) found on the marketplace...

+1

Remember, Peter, this is a 2-CD set.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2015, 07:02:25 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 04, 2015, 04:32:51 PM
Arrgh, somebody snatched up the affordable (VG) copy.    >:(

How is Bernstein's performance of the 7th with the NYP?

I've not yet listened to it. It is notorious for Lenny having cut a couple of repetitions in the first movement. By the time he led the CSO in the piece, he saw light. 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on June 04, 2015, 11:19:15 AM
The Execution of Stepan Razin is quite unlike any other work I know by Shostakovich and I find it very enjoyable. Whenever I play it the themes run through my head afterwards. This Helsinki version is very well recorded and is, I think, a fine performance under Ashkenazy. It is a very darkly compelling work, with echoes of the contemporaneous Symphony 11 and Symphony 13 although very unique and powerful.
[asin]B00DW7OQ1C[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on June 04, 2015, 03:49:33 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81gPMUIpQcL._SX522_.jpg)
Just a quick note that this has just been reissued by Alto with the cover above..the 1987 Melodiya recording as remastered by Paul Arden-Taylor.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on June 05, 2015, 05:02:11 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 04, 2015, 03:49:33 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81gPMUIpQcL._SX522_.jpg)
Just a quick note that this has just been reissued by Alto with the cover above..the 1987 Melodiya recording as remastered by Paul Arden-Taylor.

This is the second recording -- the Hyperion being third and another earlier one floating about, right?

Also identical with Moscow Studio Archives and Regis, if I'm not mistaken.

There must be an earlier recording... but has anyone seen/heard it?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 05, 2015, 03:58:22 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 05, 2015, 05:02:11 AM
This is the second recording -- the Hyperion being third and another earlier one floating about, right?

Yes.

QuoteAlso identical with Moscow Studio Archives and Regis, if I'm not mistaken.

Yep.

QuoteThere must be an earlier recording... but has anyone seen/heard it?

Haven't heard it, myself. It's a Melodiya production, though. Recorded sometime in the 60s, IIRC.


Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on June 05, 2015, 04:15:53 PM
The Melodiya recording (from '62) is available at hmv.co.jp:

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/36/2/8/199.jpg) (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Shostakovich-1906-1975_000000000021314/item_24-Preludes-Fugues-Nikolayeva-1962-2CD_3628199)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on June 05, 2015, 05:52:57 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 05, 2015, 05:02:11 AM
This is the second recording -- the Hyperion being third and another earlier one floating about, right?

Also identical with Moscow Studio Archives and Regis, if I'm not mistaken.


Same performance as the Moscow Studio Archives but remastered by Arden-Taylor, so it is not exactly identical.  I assume, based on the relationships among Regis, Alto and Musical Concepts, that it is exactly identical to the Regis issue, except for the different cover.

I am listening to it now and see why some people think it is THE recording.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on June 06, 2015, 02:45:11 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 05, 2015, 05:52:57 PM
Same performance as the Moscow Studio Archives but remastered by Arden-Taylor, so it is not exactly identical.  I assume, based on the relationships among Regis, Alto and Musical Concepts, that it is exactly identical to the Regis issue, except for the different cover.

I am listening to it now and see why some people think it is THE recording.

Not, I, for one... although I think it's a must-have if you like the works. Better than her last account; haven't heard her first.

My favorite is still, despite the mounting (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/June09/Shostakovich_acd22555.htm) and superb (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Feb10/Shostakovich24_bigears005_98530.htm) competition of the last five to ten years, this: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/01/dip-your-ears-no-22.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/01/dip-your-ears-no-22.html)

Scherbakov, Linn, and Melnikov rank very high for me...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on June 06, 2015, 09:28:18 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 06, 2015, 02:45:11 AM
Not, I, for one... although I think it's a must-have if you like the works. Better than her last account; haven't heard her first.

My favorite is still, despite the mounting (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/June09/Shostakovich_acd22555.htm) and superb (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Feb10/Shostakovich24_bigears005_98530.htm) competition of the last five to ten years, this: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/01/dip-your-ears-no-22.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/01/dip-your-ears-no-22.html)

Scherbakov, Linn, and Melnikov rank very high for me...

Have those last three,  like Scherbakov best.
Arkivmusic is running a Jarrett sale now.  Annoyingly they do not list this one.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 06, 2015, 11:38:17 AM
I certainly like Scherbakov and Melnikov very well, indeed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on June 07, 2015, 06:52:47 AM
Just stumbled over and ordered (with Jarrett and W's Bach WTC) this one
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61R6H6a35oL._SX522_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 10, 2015, 04:52:02 AM
Антиформалистический Раëк

http://www.youtube.com/v/HjzhliM_rzw
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on August 11, 2015, 07:58:12 PM
I just bought the Inbal cycle of the symphonies on the Denon label and I'm really anxious to hear all of the performances. From what I've gathered, this is quite an underrated set. I'll go on the record and say I like Inbal's conducting a lot and upon hearing his performance of the Adagio from the Leningrad, I was greatly overwhelmed with a flood of emotions. There seems to be a deep kinship between him and Shostakovich's music. The sadness and remembering those that have died during this tragic time in Russian history really comes across in Inbal's interpretation. He treats it as a lament, which is what I hear in this particular movement. But YMMV of course.

(https://www.wienersymphoniker.at/Portals/0/Media/CDs/Inbal,%20Shostakovich.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on August 12, 2015, 06:35:31 PM
No one has heard any of Inbal's Shostakovich cycle with the Vienna Symphony on Denon? :-\
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on August 12, 2015, 07:22:07 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 12, 2015, 06:35:31 PM
No one has heard any of Inbal's Shostakovich cycle with the Vienna Symphony on Denon? :-\

Did not know he did one. 
His Frankfurt Mahler is my preference for best overall Mahler cycle (no individual performance beats the field but all are excellent, which most others can not say)...which augers well for DSCH.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on August 12, 2015, 07:28:25 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 12, 2015, 07:22:07 PM
Did not know he did one. 
His Frankfurt Mahler is my preference for best overall Mahler cycle (no individual performance beats the field but all are excellent, which most others can not say)...which augers well for DSCH.

It's funny you mention his Mahler as I was talking to my dad yesterday about Inbal and he said basically the same you did that his cycle is one of the best. I'm not sure if he feels that it's 'the best' Mahler cycle, but he greatly enjoyed what was brought to the musical table.

I've known about Inbal's Shostakovich for quite some time, but I suppose around the time I felt I already had too many symphony cycles, but then I wised up and finally bought the Inbal. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on August 16, 2015, 12:07:30 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 12, 2015, 06:35:31 PM
No one has heard any of Inbal's Shostakovich cycle with the Vienna Symphony on Denon? :-\

I believe 14 is excellent,... No.9 not so much,...I remember feeling the way you did, that his are very underrated,...plus the Denon sound,... yes, looking forward to some exposition,... actually, the Amazon Reviewers Brigade, I believe, has something to say about most of them,... I think 8 gets poopooed,... some good, some bad...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha CELLO CONCERTOS
Post by: snyprrr on August 16, 2015, 12:25:37 PM
Cello Concerto No.1 (Sol Gabetta/ Maazel)

Cello Concerto No.2 (Rostropovich/ Ozawa)


No.1 always stuck in my craw,... that "jolly" opening,... yukk, blah,... but, Sol Gabetta and Maazel, "live", make a believer out of me. This is a rich, meaty performance, very slow and involved,... fat,... that turns it all around for me. I don't really have much to say about this work since it seems to be ... so.... obvious (?)... but, I'm starting to dig the finale like nothing else- 'Wizard of Oz' monkey music meets Klingon war music???- it's such a great "evil" theme of military buffoonery. Also, the slow mvmt here is especially poignant.

No.2, however, is one of DSCH's most... hidden... works. Who knows this by heart? Every time I hear it, I'm saying, wow, here's another great opening mvmt like in Symphony No.10,... there is so much waywardness all around that the whole piece seems like an enigma,... just generic angst caught perfectly,... I've always had Schiff, but hooked the Slava/Ozawa for $1, and this recording is so much more preferable to me than the No.1 recording by them on Erato. I really really loe this DG recording,... some of the winds are so fruity, and the bass drum and percussion are splendidly caught (though, to be fair, every strand of the argument is not always modernly separated). I'm always hearing new things in this work, like the "clock" theme at the very end, just like Symphony No.15, or the back and forth of the theme in the faster middle mvmt. It really almost sounds like a Symphony for Cello...


Anyhow, I'm interested in hearing all your thought concerning No.2,... I think I have to revisit the Violin Concerto No.2 also,... both of these works really fall under the radar, but - are they not Masterpieces? I've spent a few days with CC2, and the whole dark, paranoid feeling of the piece has really taken me,... there are sooo many beautiful moments of heart rending melody,... this piece is just what I needed to break from the String Quartets,... uh, though, mm, we'll see if it worked, lol...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha CELLO CONCERTOS
Post by: North Star on August 16, 2015, 01:07:30 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 16, 2015, 12:25:37 PM
Cello Concerto No.1 (Sol Gabetta/ Maazel)

Cello Concerto No.2 (Rostropovich/ Ozawa)


No.1 always stuck in my craw,... that "jolly" opening,... yukk, blah,...
Hm. I can't say that the opening sounds at all 'jolly' to me, there is plenty of menace there from the start.


QuoteNo.2, however, is one of DSCH's most... hidden... works. Who knows this by heart? Every time I hear it, I'm saying, wow, here's another great opening mvmt like in Symphony No.10,... there is so much waywardness all around that the whole piece seems like an enigma,... just generic angst caught perfectly,... I've always had Schiff, but hooked the Slava/Ozawa for $1, and this recording is so much more preferable to me than the No.1 recording by them on Erato. I really really loe this DG recording,... some of the winds are so fruity, and the bass drum and percussion are splendidly caught (though, to be fair, every strand of the argument is not always modernly separated). I'm always hearing new things in this work, like the "clock" theme at the very end, just like Symphony No.15, or the back and forth of the theme in the faster middle mvmt. It really almost sounds like a Symphony for Cello...


Anyhow, I'm interested in hearing all your thought concerning No.2,... I think I have to revisit the Violin Concerto No.2 also,... both of these works really fall under the radar, but - are they not Masterpieces? I've spent a few days with CC2, and the whole dark, paranoid feeling of the piece has really taken me,... there are sooo many beautiful moments of heart rending melody,... this piece is just what I needed to break from the String Quartets,... uh, though, mm, we'll see if it worked, lol...
I was lucky enough to hear Natalia Gutman play No. 2 in March 2010, and it was really something, although I would have appreciated and enjoyed the piece more later. Still, like the second Violin Concerto, it doesn't seem to have as much staying power in my head as the first concertos. Time to revisit the pair, I think.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha VIOLIN CONCERTO NO.2
Post by: snyprrr on August 17, 2015, 02:27:47 PM
Quote from: North Star on August 16, 2015, 01:07:30 PM
Hm. I can't say that the opening sounds at all 'jolly' to me, there is plenty of menace there from the start.

I was lucky enough to hear Natalia Gutman play No. 2 in March 2010, and it was really something, although I would have appreciated and enjoyed the piece more later. Still, like the second Violin Concerto, it doesn't seem to have as much staying power in my head as the first concertos. Time to revisit the pair, I think.

Just spent two days with the VC2,... and,.. hmmm,... after the monumental CC2, I found myself a bit disappointed,... I don't know, ... it's so spare,... but, of course, I do like it, and the Vengerov is very crisply recorded,... but the music is quite spare, I really was taken aback this time, very odd,... I'll have to check against Sitkovetsky...

This one sounds the most like proto-Schnittke to me, even though there are no major outbursts... hmmm... sounds a lot like "Klingon" music to me, very martial and oppressive...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on August 18, 2015, 08:20:42 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 12, 2015, 06:35:31 PM
No one has heard any of Inbal's Shostakovich cycle with the Vienna Symphony on Denon? :-\

I have the 5th but it doesn't impress - so much competition of course.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha CELLO CONCERTOS
Post by: aukhawk on August 18, 2015, 08:25:12 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 16, 2015, 12:25:37 PM
Cello Concerto No.1 (Sol Gabetta/ Maazel)
Cello Concerto No.2 (Rostropovich/ Ozawa)

... Anyhow, I'm interested in hearing all your thought concerning No.2,...

Funnily enough, my preference is for Rostropovitch in No.1 and Gabetta in No.2.  And Gabetta's CC2 is coupled with a really excellent Cello Sonata.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on August 18, 2015, 08:42:54 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on August 18, 2015, 08:20:42 AM
I have the 5th but it doesn't impress - so much competition of course.

No one will ever beat my favorite in the 5th: Lenny's 1979 Live in Japan performance with the New York Philharmonic. Doesn't matter how good another performance may be. Nothing matches this one and the same goes for Lenny's CSO performance of the Leningrad on DG. I'll never be convinced there are better performances than these. So, I can be just as biased as anyone here. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 23, 2015, 11:40:10 AM
Attended Prom concert in London tonight and greatly enjoyed a performance of Shostakovich's 10th Symphony with the Boston SO conducted by Andris Nelsons. The first movement was a little too 'polished' for my liking, but I guess that I'm used to hearing recordings of the raucous brass of USSR SO under Mravinsky or Svetlanov. However, the last three movements were terrific and overall I think that it was a great performance. They were even selling a new CD on DGG of these forces playing the work for £10 so I snapped up a copy (recorded live in Boston) which I shall look forward to hearing and comparing with tonight's concert.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 23, 2015, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 23, 2015, 11:40:10 AM
Attended Prom concert in London tonight and greatly enjoyed a performance of Shostakovich's 10th Symphony with the Boston SO conducted by Andris Nelsons. The first movement was a little too 'polished' for my liking, but I guess that I'm used to hearing recordings of the raucous brass of USSR SO under Mravinsky or Svetlanov. However, the last three movements were terrific and overall I think that it was a great performance. They were even selling a new CD on DGG of these forces playing the work for £10 so I snapped up a copy (recorded live in Boston) which I shall look forward to hearing and comparing with tonight's concert.

Glad our band gave satisfaction, Jeffrey!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on August 23, 2015, 06:27:15 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 23, 2015, 01:45:46 PM
Glad our band gave satisfaction, Jeffrey!

The CD performance gave great satisfaction to the other Jeffrey!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 23, 2015, 10:23:41 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 23, 2015, 01:45:46 PM
Glad our band gave satisfaction, Jeffrey!
They were terrific Karl and had a great reception from the promenaders and audience. Am not sure an encore was a great idea after Shostakovich's 10th Symphony but the composer's 'Gallop' was a fun choice.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 23, 2015, 10:24:56 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 23, 2015, 06:27:15 PM
The CD performance gave great satisfaction to the other Jeffrey!
Great to hear Jeffrey can't wait to hear it - will play it now.  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on August 26, 2015, 08:37:21 PM
(http://s24.postimg.org/xin6tvqlx/Karajan_Shostakovich_1970.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha __ . . . one for M.I.
Post by: Scion7 on August 30, 2015, 06:27:39 AM
(http://s4.postimg.org/x3krebfql/MI_nightmare.jpg)

;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha __ . . . one for M.I.
Post by: snyprrr on August 30, 2015, 07:26:53 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on August 30, 2015, 06:27:39 AM
(http://s4.postimg.org/x3krebfql/MI_nightmare.jpg)

;)

you've been a verrry verry naughty boy mmm naughty naughty tsk tsk tsk ??? :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on August 30, 2015, 07:43:17 PM
 >:D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on November 06, 2015, 03:04:08 AM
I'm listening to the Cello Concerto No. 1 currently. Apparently the DSCH motif features in this work, but I cannot for the life of me spot it. Same with the third movement of the 15th Symphony. Can anyone give me some clues?

Also, I've just ordered a recording of the two Violin Concertos (one for the super cheap bargains thread). I've never heard these works before, and they're the last two concertos of his I need to get.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 06, 2015, 03:23:30 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on November 06, 2015, 03:04:08 AM
I'm listening to the Cello Concerto No. 1 currently. Apparently the DSCH motif features in this work, but I cannot for the life of me spot it.

OTTOMH I wonder if you mean the Vn Cto № 1 instead?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on November 06, 2015, 05:38:27 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 06, 2015, 03:23:30 AM
OTTOMH I wonder if you mean the Vn Cto № 1 instead?

No, I meant the Cello Concerto. But now I've read that the four-note motif that starts the concerto is "derived" from DSCH. But it's certainly not DSCH. If G-Fb-Cb-Bb is "derived" from DSCH then anything can be.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 06, 2015, 05:49:14 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on November 06, 2015, 05:38:27 AM
No, I meant the Cello Concerto. But now I've read that the four-note motif that starts the concerto is "derived" from it. If G-Fb-Cb-Bb is derived from DSCH then anything can be.

I agree, rather a stretch.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on November 06, 2015, 01:11:25 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on November 06, 2015, 05:38:27 AM
No, I meant the Cello Concerto. But now I've read that the four-note motif that starts the concerto is "derived" from DSCH. But it's certainly not DSCH. If G-Fb-Cb-Bb is "derived" from DSCH then anything can be.

But, really, it IS that jaunty Benny Hill/Monty Python motto... sure you can turn it into a thousand things, but the zeitegesheit is still there,... at least, I know I know how to spot his theme in its various guises...

Again, his theme "looks" like an awkward stick figure, representing the "nerdy" Shosty...

2 cents
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on November 07, 2015, 12:55:01 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on November 06, 2015, 01:11:25 PM
But, really, it IS that jaunty Benny Hill/Monty Python motto... sure you can turn it into a thousand things, but the zeitegesheit is still there,... at least, I know I know how to spot his theme in its various guises...

But it's not DSCH though. DSCH is D-Eb-C-B. Those notes, in that order. A derivation would involve those same notes, either in a different order, or with repeats or something like that.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pat B on November 08, 2015, 04:48:51 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on November 07, 2015, 12:55:01 AM
But it's not DSCH though. DSCH is D-Eb-C-B. Those notes, in that order. A derivation would involve those same notes, either in a different order, or with repeats or something like that.

Or transposed, or inverted, or...

That CC1 motif, like DSCH, is four notes with the last two being a descending half-step. It does create a similar vibe, but I'm with you, I wouldn't call it a derivation.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on November 09, 2015, 01:32:57 AM
CC1 motive is two triads connected by a pivot tone on the third (in this case, E minor and Eb major). Shostakovich uses the same idea in the Symphony No. 15 and, less centrally, in other works. It's a totally independent idea and one that runs throughout his music.

However, the DSCH motive definitely does appear in CC1, in the second theme of the first movement.
(http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.09.15.2/brown_fig8.gif)

The only credible reference I can find to the DSCH motive appearing in the first theme places it in the accompaniment instead of the melody, but it's not very noticeable to a casual listener, and may not even be intentional.
(http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.09.15.2/brown_fig6.gif)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 09, 2015, 03:15:30 AM
A good observation, although I would draw a distinction between the motto (which does not actually appear) and the pitch content of the motto.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pat B on November 09, 2015, 06:51:40 AM
Thanks, amw. But where is the Eb major triad in the CC1 opening motive? It seems to be missing the Eb. And without that, why not call it G minor? I think that's how my ear hears it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on November 09, 2015, 01:30:42 PM
The missing Eb and G are in the woodwinds. Their 'answer' is basically the second part of the motive, the first part never appearing without it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pat B on November 09, 2015, 02:45:07 PM
Quote from: amw on November 09, 2015, 01:30:42 PM
The missing Eb and G are in the woodwinds. Their 'answer' is basically the second part of the motive, the first part never appearing without it.

Oh, of course. I was looking at those notes but forgot to account for the different clef. (I was a violinist and then a drummer, so just reading bass clef is an achievement for me.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 25, 2016, 07:45:06 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 09, 2008, 03:44:19 AM
To keep myself solely to your initial question:  this is the string fugato in the middle of the first movement of the Fourth Symphony.

Just looking through old posts on the Dacha thread (in the process of re-reading the whole thread).  The string fugato is absolutely amazing, Karl!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 25, 2016, 08:27:19 AM
Aye, that it is, Ray!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 29, 2016, 10:51:26 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 22, 2012, 12:56:05 PM
Well, this must be the first day I've ever listened to the Opus 43 four times the same day. Guess I'm a phan-boy.

Ouch!!  I love the Opus 43, but four times in one day?  That surely is close to flirting with the noose!  :o
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 29, 2016, 10:52:56 AM
Hah!  I think I'm doing all right  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 29, 2016, 11:38:41 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 29, 2016, 10:52:56 AM
Hah!  I think I'm doing all right  8)

Indeed!  :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 29, 2016, 11:40:07 AM
I just learned today that Violin Concerto No. 1 (such an amazing work!) is actually Opus 77, not Opus 99.  I did not know this until today!  ???  We are now on page 77.  Coincidence?  I think not  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 29, 2016, 11:41:29 AM
0:)  8)  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 29, 2016, 12:00:01 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 29, 2016, 11:40:07 AM
I just learned today that Violin Concerto No. 1 (such an amazing work!) is actually Opus 77, not Opus 99.  I did not know this until today!  ???  We are now on page 77.  Coincidence?  I think not  8)

Yeah, this is one those works he filed away due to what possibly could be perceived by the Soviet authorities as formalistic or whatever they seemed to love to peg musicians, poets, artists, etc. with who were creating art that wasn't up to their standards.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on February 29, 2016, 12:08:43 PM
It actually seems that he shuffled opus numbers around a lot, although I think in some cases this might just be at the manuscript stage. But the Sikorski catalogue I found has numerous entries reporting a former opus number: http://www.sikorski.de/336/en/shostakovich_dmitri.html
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on February 29, 2016, 01:09:57 PM
Does anyone know if there was an orchestral work by Shostakovich that had a prominent piano part besides the two concerti?  I vaguely remember the radio playing a 10-13 minute exciting piece for piano and orchestra but cannot find it in his list of works so might have incorrectly attributed it to Shostakovich.  I thought the title had something to do with October but the work I found was op. 131 and not the same piece.
Title: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 29, 2016, 02:30:22 PM
First Symphony?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on February 29, 2016, 02:43:57 PM
No, not the first symphony.  I thought it was a concertante work.  It might have been from one of his film scores but like a 10 minute suite arranged for piano and orchestra.    I thought it had a very Rachmaninoff-ian feel to it...exuberant romanticism rather than L'Enfant terrible or tragic despair.   

EDIT: Ok, I found it!!  Not called October but The Unforgettable Year 1919.  Technically more Tchaikovsky than Rachmaninoff but gorgeous romanticism! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ntsvhH8E8U

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on March 02, 2016, 04:54:02 AM
[On CC1]

Quote from: snyprrr on November 06, 2015, 01:11:25 PM
But, really, it IS that jaunty Benny Hill/Monty Python motto... sure you can turn it into a thousand things, but the zeitegesheit is still there,... at least, I know I know how to spot his theme in its various guises...

Of course it is.  Hal-lo old friend (sing it).

Quote from: Maestro267 on November 07, 2015, 12:55:01 AM
But it's not DSCH though. DSCH is D-Eb-C-B. Those notes, in that order. A derivation would involve those same notes, either in a different order, or with repeats or something like that.

Surely if a composer takes a motif (say for example D-Eb-C-B) and then repeats it obsessively throughout an extended musical work (or indeed through numerous works over a period) then in the process it is bound to get transposed many times, because that is the nature of this type of music. It may even first appear in its transposed form.  It may even appear in a slightly distorted form that is nonetheless a clear allusion to the original (like Bach inverting a fugue subject).  It is always still (IMHO) the 'DSCH' motif regardless of what the actual notes or pitches are.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 02, 2016, 05:04:18 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 02, 2016, 04:54:02 AM
Surely if a composer takes a motif (say for example D-Eb-C-B) and then repeats it obsessively throughout an extended musical work (or indeed through numerous works over a period) then in the process it is bound to get transposed many times, because that is the nature of this type of music. It may even first appear in its transposed form.  It may even appear in a slightly distorted form that is nonetheless a clear allusion to the original (like Bach inverting a fugue subject).  It is always still (IMHO) the 'DSCH' motif regardless of what the actual notes or pitches are.

Indeed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pat B on March 02, 2016, 06:51:05 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 02, 2016, 04:54:02 AM
Surely if a composer takes a motif (say for example D-Eb-C-B) and then repeats it obsessively throughout an extended musical work (or indeed through numerous works over a period) then in the process it is bound to get transposed many times, because that is the nature of this type of music. It may even first appear in its transposed form.  It may even appear in a slightly distorted form that is nonetheless a clear allusion to the original (like Bach inverting a fugue subject).  It is always still (IMHO) the 'DSCH' motif regardless of what the actual notes or pitches are.

Transposition, absolutely. Inversion, sure. Arbitrary reordering, maybe. But does G-Fb-Cb-Bb have any such relationship to D-Eb-C-B?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Spineur on May 04, 2016, 12:55:49 AM
Has any GMG members read this book and what do they think of it, more from a musical than political perspective, which seems to be Julian Barnes main focus.

[asin]1101947241[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2016, 03:33:14 AM
Quote from: Pat B on March 02, 2016, 06:51:05 PM
Transposition, absolutely. Inversion, sure. Arbitrary reordering, maybe. But does G-Fb-Cb-Bb have any such relationship to D-Eb-C-B?

Not so close as literal transposition or inversion, to be sure, but still an audibly close relation:

A. [ascending minor second] + [descending minor third] + [descending minor second]

B. [ascending minor second] + [descending perfect fourth] + [descending minor second]

These are clearly more closely related than (say) D-Eb-C-B and G-Bb-Cb-Fb:

A. [ascending minor second] + [descending minor third] + [descending minor second]

C. [ascending minor third] + [ascending minor second] + [descending perfect fifth]

Consider the traditional understanding of Beethoven's c minor symphony, that "the same idea" of three short notes and one long unites all four movements.  Thinking of the inaugural "Fate knocking" motif as a sufficiently close relation to (in the last movement, e.g.) the triplet pickups into a downbeat is more of a stretch than the relationship between A. and B.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on May 04, 2016, 03:51:50 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2016, 03:33:14 AM
Not so close as literal transposition or inversion, to be sure, but still an audibly close relation:

A. [ascending minor second] + [descending minor third] + [descending minor second]

B. [ascending minor second] + [descending perfect fourth] + [descending minor second]
B should be [descending minor third] + [ascending perfect fifth] + [descending minor second] which is not really all that similar at all. Anyway it's as much a harmonic motive as a melodic one: E minor + E-flat major.

Side note: the earlier examples of that particular motive I can think of come from Ralph Vaughan Williams: Job (Satan's theme) and the 6th Symphony (where it is a driving force for the whole work, which opens with a juxtaposition of F minor and E major—the latter immediately self-correcting to E minor; is largely driven by this same progression [two chords a semitone apart, connected by ^3], always bringing instability as neither chord can be a "resolution" unless it's corrected to something else; and ends, once E minor has achieved "victory" over E major, with a pure oscillation between E minor and E-flat major triads, like the statement of a thesis, or like a slow realisation that the two triads are not an opposition at all but rather a duality). Rozhdestvensky did bring RVW symphonies to Russia a few times. Wonder if Shostakovich ever heard them <_< >_> (What he does in the 1st symphony, connecting F minor and D-flat minor with an Ab, is basically the same sort of thing of course.)

It might be interesting to play Mitya's CC1 straight after Rafe's Sixth. The Shostakovich work is driven by the same instability, begins with the exact same chords that ended the Vaughan Williams one, but ends up resolving the tension quite differently—instead of accepting the duality, the timpani simply asserts Eb major with brute force and brings proceedings to the abruptest of endings. A difference in philosophy I suspect. :P
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2016, 04:08:23 AM
Quote from: amw on May 04, 2016, 03:51:50 AM
B should be [descending minor third] + [ascending perfect fifth] + [descending minor second] which is not really all that similar at all.

Gah, you're right, of course.  I should know better than tro try to write before I've finished my first cup of morning tea.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pat B on May 09, 2016, 10:24:33 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2016, 04:08:23 AM
Gah, you're right, of course.  I should know better than tro try to write before I've finished my first cup of morning tea.

FWIW I do agree that G-Fb-Cb-Bb sounds similar to the DSCH motif. I just don't accept that the former is a derivation of the latter -- and certainly not that they are the same.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 09, 2016, 10:55:30 AM
Quote from: Pat B on May 09, 2016, 10:24:33 AM
FWIW I do agree that G-Fb-Cb-Bb sounds similar to the DSCH motif. I just don't accept that the former is a derivation of the latter -- and certainly not that they are the same.

Fair enough.
Title: Nelsons & BSO to Record Complete Shostakovich Symphonies
Post by: bhodges on May 19, 2016, 07:52:10 AM
Andris Nelsons and the Boston Symphony Orchestra will be recording the complete Shostakovich symphonies for Deutsche Grammophon, and - perhaps even better news - the complete opera, Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk. More info here:

https://www.bso.org/brands/bso/press/press-releases/archived-press-releases/32416/may-2-2016-press-release.aspx

--Bruce
Title: Re: Nelsons & BSO to Record Complete Shostakovich Symphonies
Post by: vandermolen on May 20, 2016, 09:42:02 AM
Quote from: Brewski on May 19, 2016, 07:52:10 AM
Andris Nelsons and the Boston Symphony Orchestra will be recording the complete Shostakovich symphonies for Deutsche Grammophon, and - perhaps even better news - the complete opera, Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk. More info here:

https://www.bso.org/brands/bso/press/press-releases/archived-press-releases/32416/may-2-2016-press-release.aspx

--Bruce
I saw him conduct No.10 in London and they were selling the DGG CD for £10 at the Albert Hall which is not too bad for a DGG CD. It is a very fine version which I listened to earlier this week.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on May 20, 2016, 09:44:23 AM
What are the views of Shostakovich's admirers on Symphony 12 'The Year 1917'? I rather like it but many people don't considering it overtly cinematic and propagandist. For me it is a kind of guilty pleasure.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on May 20, 2016, 04:07:43 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 20, 2016, 09:44:23 AM
What are the views of Shostakovich's admirers on Symphony 12 'The Year 1917'? I rather like it but many people don't considering it overtly cinematic and propagandist. For me it is a kind of guilty pleasure.

I enjoy it plenty, Jeffrey!  I remember Daniel (MadaboutMahler) also being fond of the 12th.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 20, 2016, 06:31:22 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 20, 2016, 04:07:43 PM
I enjoy it plenty, Jeffrey!  I remember Daniel (MadaboutMahler) also being fond of the 12th.

Ray! Welcome back, my friend! 8) Good to see you posting again. I hope everything is going well in your life.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 20, 2016, 06:33:10 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 20, 2016, 09:44:23 AM
What are the views of Shostakovich's admirers on Symphony 12 'The Year 1917'? I rather like it but many people don't considering it overtly cinematic and propagandist. For me it is a kind of guilty pleasure.

I wouldn't claim the 12th being a profound work BUT it's great fun and I love all the aggressive energy of the music. It's far from a favorite, but worth listening to once in awhile.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on May 20, 2016, 10:40:21 PM
Thanks Ray and John - good to hear. Have just ordered the Mravinsky version.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on May 22, 2016, 06:04:49 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 20, 2016, 06:31:22 PM
Ray! Welcome back, my friend! 8) Good to see you posting again. I hope everything is going well in your life.

Thank you, John.  :)  I do browse the forum at least weekly, but haven't been in the mood to post.  Have had something difficult occur in my personal life, so working through that each day, and things are getting better.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 22, 2016, 06:10:31 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 22, 2016, 06:04:49 AM
Thank you, John.  :)  I do browse the forum at least weekly, but haven't been in the mood to post.  Have had something difficult occur in my personal life, so working through that each day, and things are getting better.

I'm sorry to hear this, Ray. Wishing you well through this period.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on May 22, 2016, 11:53:43 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 22, 2016, 06:10:31 AM
I'm sorry to hear this, Ray. Wishing you well through this period.

Me too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on June 05, 2016, 09:32:34 AM
My favourite version of Symphony 8 - in a class of its own IMHO. I'm delighted that Warner have reissued it with the striking original LP cover image, which is one of my favourites. Pity, for me, that the booklet notes are exclusively in Japanese:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphony-8-Shostakovich/dp/B01A61C69A/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1465147554&sr=1-1&keywords=shostakovich+Previn
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on June 06, 2016, 01:45:25 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 22, 2016, 06:04:49 AM
Thank you, John.  :)  I do browse the forum at least weekly, but haven't been in the mood to post.  Have had something difficult occur in my personal life, so working through that each day, and things are getting better.

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=164.0;attach=46167;image)

Cheers & tenacity!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2016, 09:31:51 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 06, 2016, 01:45:25 AM
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=164.0;attach=46167;image)

Cheers & tenacity!
I don't think that particular piece of music would cheer Schroeder up! Very nice though.  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on June 06, 2016, 09:38:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 06, 2016, 09:31:51 AM
I don't think that particular piece of music would cheer Schroeder up! Very nice though.  8)
It is the buying of records that cheers Schroeder up, so maybe the listening experience is more trivial. ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 06, 2016, 09:59:17 AM
Quote from: North Star on June 06, 2016, 09:38:57 AM
It is the buying of records that cheers Schroeder up, so maybe the listening experience is more trivial. ;)

Though it be not light-hearted, exactly, I do find the scherzo cheering . . .

http://www.youtube.com/v/zJN2rbMEozI
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on June 06, 2016, 09:43:08 PM
Quote from: North Star on June 06, 2016, 09:38:57 AM
It is the buying of records that cheers Schroeder up, so maybe the listening experience is more trivial. ;)
That's absolutely true! Certainly in my case. So, even Pettersson's 'The Dead in the Marketplace' would have had the same effect.  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: jlaurson on June 06, 2016, 10:43:11 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 06, 2016, 09:31:51 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 06, 2016, 01:45:25 AM
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=164.0;attach=46167;image)

Cheers & tenacity!
I don't think that particular piece of music would cheer Schroeder up! Very nice though.  8)


Yes, the ironic choice of works, pertinent to this thread, was sufficient to make me chuckle to myself. But then, I'm easily amused.  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on June 07, 2016, 05:46:48 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 06, 2016, 10:43:11 PM
I don't think that particular piece of music would cheer Schroeder up! Very nice though.  8)



Yes, the ironic choice of works, pertinent to this thread, was sufficient to make me chuckle to myself. But then, I'm easily amused.  :)
It made me laugh too.  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha [1906-1975]
Post by: Scion7 on June 24, 2016, 02:34:55 PM
(http://s33.postimg.org/pzeooerj3/1973.jpg)   ç1973

Oistrakh was satisfied with his performance.
Remastered in 2005.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha [1906-1975]
Post by: vandermolen on June 24, 2016, 10:46:02 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on June 24, 2016, 02:34:55 PM
(http://s33.postimg.org/pzeooerj3/1973.jpg)   ç1973

Oistrakh was satisfied with his performance.
Remastered in 2005.
That's a great performance. Just listening to the Ormandy recording of Symphony 1. I think that 'Shostakovich becomes Shostakovich' in the coda of that work in the same way that 'Sibelius becomes Sibelius' (and moves away from the influence of Tchaikovsky) in Symphony 3 or perhaps the last movement of Symphony 2. I very much enjoy Shostakovich's 1st Symphony, especially in Ormandy's fine performance.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on June 28, 2016, 04:18:37 AM
This will cause M.I. to leap from his chair and head for the batpole!

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61t-c1ASdbL._SX425_.jpg)

[asin]B01E6IEJ4O[/asin]

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha [1906-1975]
Post by: jlaurson on June 28, 2016, 04:22:18 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on June 24, 2016, 02:34:55 PM
(http://s33.postimg.org/pzeooerj3/1973.jpg)   ç1973

Oistrakh was satisfied with his performance.


;D ;) and Maxim does his best Peter Sellars impression.  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on June 28, 2016, 09:02:59 AM
That fine train photo crops up here too:
[asin]B000025XTR[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha - re: new Ashkenazy disc
Post by: Scion7 on June 28, 2016, 12:22:43 PM
While of course "good," the Greenwich Trio still tops all for the second Piano Trio - the live event from the Slovakian broadcast (all movements out there on YT) has the most passion of any performance of this piece.  Shame they disbanded.

Recommended for the Viola sonata.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha [1906-1975]
Post by: Pat B on June 28, 2016, 07:51:18 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 28, 2016, 04:22:18 AM
;D ;) and Maxim does his best Peter Sellars impression.  8)

Peter Sellars or Peter Sellers?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on July 19, 2016, 08:41:27 AM
A random comment: listening to the Fifth Symphony a couple times this month, under Bernstein (live in Tokyo) and Kreizberg (PentaTone), I've come to the more general conclusion that I am pro-fast ending and anti-slow ending. I remember at a younger age being gobsmacked by how terrifyingly sad and oppressive the slow ending is, but the truth is, it's still brutal when played quickly. Hard to believe that anybody at the time was convinced this was a "happy ending" - even blazing-fast Lenny brings out the major/minor-key ambiguity and the eerie discord of all those repeated notes. It's unsettling as written, and my current thinking is that stretching the ending out as long as possible is overkill.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on July 19, 2016, 03:25:19 PM
According to the metronome marks the end of the fourth movement should be exactly double the speed of the beginning, so that the timpani D-A ostinato remains the same speed.

I think the performance that best illustrates Shostakovich's metronome marks is Wigglesworth/BBCNOW. Also a good one in general. Maybe one of my favourites I'm not sure. Shostakovich does not want a fast tempo for the movement; the basic tempo is quarter = 88 (although he composes in an accelerando to quarter = 126, iirc, for the second theme) and the coda is obviously half = 88. Most performers I've noticed play the movement a lot faster than he seems to have wanted.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2016, 04:11:06 PM
I prefer a faster ending a la Bernstein's Tokyo performance. I had to raise my eyebrow at the choice of Wigglesworth from amw. I own most of his Shostakovich recordings (on BIS) and think he lacked intensity in all of the performances I've heard. I mean we all have our favorites, but you'd pick Wigglesworth over conductors like Mravinsky, Kondrashin, Haitink, Maxim Shostakovich, Petrenko, Barshai, etc.? Also, sometimes what the composer wants doesn't always happen. I remember David Diamond being very unhappy with Bernstein's performance of his Symphony No. 4, but that was a great performance IMHO despite what the composer thought.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pat B on July 19, 2016, 08:20:35 PM
Quote from: amw on July 19, 2016, 03:25:19 PM
According to the metronome marks the end of the fourth movement should be exactly double the speed of the beginning, so that the timpani D-A ostinato remains the same speed.

I think the performance that best illustrates Shostakovich's metronome marks is Wigglesworth/BBCNOW. Also a good one in general. Maybe one of my favourites I'm not sure. Shostakovich does not want a fast tempo for the movement; the basic tempo is quarter = 88 (although he composes in an accelerando to quarter = 126, iirc, for the second theme) and the coda is obviously half = 88. Most performers I've noticed play the movement a lot faster than he seems to have wanted.

Thanks -- I think this is a valuable post. I'm streaming the Wigglesworth now.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on July 19, 2016, 08:42:27 PM
update: I re-listened also and still enjoy it although I had remembered the ending as being more cold, mechanistic and brutal than it actually was (the string and woodwind articulation is not sharp and stabbing enough, the percussion not loud enough). In terms of tempo, the ending is still how it "should" be done, complete with lack of ritardando in the final bars, but a better performance is possible.

Also I mean there may be other people who play the metronome marks, this just happens to be a performance I know because it was recommended on this forum.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Wanderer on July 19, 2016, 11:50:11 PM
The slower the coda of the finale of the Fifth, the more grating those strings are.
I prefer swift(er) tempi that give an extra sense of propulsion and urgency. The recent BSO/Nelsons is particularly good in this regard.

Quote from: amw on July 19, 2016, 08:42:27 PM
...complete with lack of ritardando in the final bars

Thank you. This uncalled for ritardando is a huge pet peeve of mine.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on July 21, 2016, 04:26:46 PM
I had to run up to Duke University for a few days for a seminar.
While there, I ran across a ç1961 long article on Shostakovich - it was interesting, as I had not read this particular tract before, from the standpoint of D.S. still alive and kicking!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 23, 2016, 05:26:42 AM
[ Cross-post ]

In my own gradual evolution w/r/t the Shostakovich symphonies, the last two to which I was reconciled were the Eleventh and the Twelfth.  (Maybe it seems strange that I came to appreciate the Second and the Third before these.  But that was driven to a great extent by these scores dating from before l'affaire Pravda;  we have a finite number of pieces which the composer wrote when he was artistically and mentally free from considerations which after "Muddle Instead of Music" were absolutely unavoidable.  Part of the virtue of the Opp. 14 & 20, as I see it, is we have musical snapshots of the assured young composer, when he could still do as he pleased, and feel "to hell with any critic.")

Worth pointing out that, musically, I "grew up" in an environment where the general disdain for Shostakovich's music as a whole (perhaps marginally offset by grudging appreciation of this or that "exceptional" singleton work – the Piano Quintet, say, or the Fifth Symphony) as typified by Layton's essay in The Symphony was the institutional norm, but where this sleepy orthodoxy was resisted by a number of individuals, a resistance which had not yet coalesced into any musicological counter-insurgency.  Thus it was that (for instance) my conducting instructor at Wooster indirectly taught me to love the Thirteenth SymphonySimon Rattle led the Cleveland Orchestra in the Tenth, which was one of those life-changing musical experiences;  and I discovered the Fourteenth Symphony on my own initiative.

Still, at that comparatively early age, by perhaps a combination of the institutional prejudice having seeped in at partial unawares, and (what is the classic challenge in the case of Haydn, e.g.) the natural difficulty of coming to grips with a large and diverse œuvre, I was slow to listen to a number of the symphonies with an open mind.

So that at one point, even while I admired and enjoyed the variety over the course of the symphonies – the austere economies of the Fifth Symphony, the monumental somber tread of the Eighth, the mercurial gaiety of the Ninth, the wry song-cycle of the Fourteenth – I nevertheless "objected" to the Eleventh as something essentially unlike any of the other symphonies, for instance.  And I certainly took more or less as read that the Eleventh and Twelfth were inconsiderable "quasi-cinema" symphonies.  (I know some folks use "movie music" as praise, but half the time it strikes me as code for "there isn't enough musical logic in the piece itself.")

Thus, at the point where I very much liked 13 out of the 15 symphonies, anyway, the catalyst for changing my mind towards the Eleventh was, of course, the personal experience of a friend – and, a musical friend, one who has commissioned a few works from me – who had heard the San Diego Symphony play the piece live.  It was the point at which I understood that I was being musically lazy, that I was dismissing (failing to listen attentively, and in fairness, to) the Eleventh simply because that was the attitude towards the piece in four or eight written sources which were my first indirect "knowledge" of the piece.  (And I knew, for instance, that this was my exact and personal complaint with Harlow Robinson in the case of three or six Prokofiev scores:  a critic who simply failed to appreciate the merits of a score, routinely refreshing "the conventional wisdom" that the piece was inferior.)  Shostakovich handles the musical scale (I mean, scope, not do-re-mi) and process in a different way than his other symphonies, and in a way which feels entirely and strikingly new;  and I had been slow to credit that.

I won't go on to bore anyone here.  The reason I am posting is, that last night I listened again to the Twelfth, and my opinion about the piece has ratcheted up a few notches.  The superficial differences between the Eleventh and Twelfth have always been obvious, so that my reconcilement to the Op.103 did not necessarily transfer to the Op.112.  I suddenly realized last night as I was listening to the first movement, how much it felt like Shostakovich writing a symphony movement, as if it were the Festive Overture.  (And as a result, I began thoroughly to enjoy what he was doing with the material, with the form, with the scoring.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 23, 2016, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 23, 2016, 05:26:42 AM
[...]

I won't go on to bore anyone here [....]

Was this unintended irony? Had the Boredom Threshold already been crossed?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 23, 2016, 07:20:04 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 23, 2016, 06:35:23 AM
Was this unintended irony? Had the Boredom Threshold already been crossed?

Not at all...a good read. I'm always interested in an individual's musical history especially, as here, when it includes music I too love and, in some cases (like the Leningrad), still struggling with.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on August 23, 2016, 07:42:37 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 23, 2016, 06:35:23 AM
Was this unintended irony? Had the Boredom Threshold already been crossed?
Certainly not - an interesting read, indeed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 23, 2016, 08:10:19 AM
Cheers, gents.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 23, 2016, 03:53:46 PM
Long as that post was, I cut it off before I was done;  I was going to illustrate a parallel between the Op.96 and the Op.112, but then a nagging voice bade me check my sources first.

Elizabeth Wilson recorded interviews on three occasions with Lev Lebedinsky between August 1988 and March 1989 as part of her impressively broad research for her oral history, Shostakovich: A Life Remembered.  My impression is that the extract below is from an oral interview, rather than from the published (or unpublished) articles cited in her bibliography.  Lebedinsky was a

Quote from: Elizabeth Wilson... musicologist and expert in musical folklore. One of the founders and chief ideologues of RAPP [Russian Association of Proletarian Writers, founded in the '20s, and in fact the sort of organization with which the young composer would likely have butted heads].  Close friend of DDS [i.e., Shostakovich] during the 1950s.  In his capacity as editor at the Sovietsky Kompozitor [Soviet Composer] publishing house, he edited the piano score of the second version of Katerina Izmailova. [Shostakovich: A Life Remembered, pp.554-555]

"Close friend" (with no uncharity) may not necessarily mean someone in close affinity with the composer's art; and I am sure there were practical ways in which he was a close and valued friend.

The "deep background" of the Twelfth Symphony is that, with some regularity throughout his career, Shostakovich mollified the authorities with news that his next symphony was going to be "dedicated to Lenin."  That always made the people of the press happy, and he carried on with whatever he was working on.

The long-spun yarn rather caught up with him, and in May of 1958 he was reported as saying, "I am more and more drawn to the idea of composing a work dedicated to the immortal image of Vladimir Ilyich Lenin" (speaking of reasons for Westerners to approach the piece with ready contempt). But . . .

Quote from: Elizabeth WilsonLev Lebedinsky has asserted that Shostakovich had originally wished to compose a symphony parodying, rather than glorifying, Lenin.  For this reason, then, the composer had to re-write the work at short notice, as he feared that the subversive nature of the music was dangerously transparent.  As of today there exists little evidence to support this claim, but there are also no grounds to refute it,  The story is plausible if we date the rewriting to August 1961, before Shostakovich prepared the piano and orchestral scores for performance.  Here is Lev Lebedinsky's account of the matter:

Quote from: Lev LebedinskyIn 1961 Shostakovich made another attempt to express his true attitude to what was going on in his country.  He decided that his Twelfth Symphony was to be a satire of Lenin.  When he told me this I tried to talk him out of it.  It was too dangerous, and nobody would understand anyway.  He brushed off my advice with "He who has ears will hear" (a favorite Shostakovich expression).  Then he went to Leningrad to attend the first performance.  One evening he rang me up in a panic.  "Lev Nikolayevich, tomorrow my symphony will be played for the first time.  Can you come up to Leningrad?"

"What, right now?" I asked.

"Yes, please come."

I immediately went to the station, and tipped the guard so as to get on the night train.  I arrived early in the morning.  He was waiting for me at his hotel.  He was as pale as death.  He looked awful.  In the lobby he said to me, "I've written a terrible symphony.  It's a failure.  But I've managed to change it."

"Change what?"

"The whole symphony.  But we can't talk any more.  My room is full of journalists and all sorts of strange people."

When we entered his room, I had a feeling that we had stumbled into a lunatic asylum.  There were representatives of hundreds of organizations there.  They put some questions to him and he answered somehow.  The conversation was being recorded, and the cameras were whirring, filming this historic occasion for the cinema news.  After all, Shostakovich had written a symphony about Lenin!  Finally the ordeal was over and everybody left.

Shostakovich then explained:  "I wrote the symphony, and then I realized that you had been right.  They'd crucify me for it because my conception was an obvious caricature of Lenin.  Therefore I sat down and wrote another one in three or four days.  And it's terrible!"  With his insane technique he could do anything.  He could have written an opera in three days.

We went to the rehearsal.  He pleaded, "Sit next to me, don't leave me on my own now."  They started playing.  The music was frightening in its helplessness.  I experienced some terrible moments, and I thought I was about to go mad.  Shostakovich was holding my hand, and he kept asking, "Is it really awful?"

I knew that if I said it was awful, he would go mad too.  I restrained myself and said, "No, it's perfectly all right."

"What do you mean, all right?  It's terrible."

"Stop it," I said, "don't be so nervous.  It's perfectly passable."

My only thought was to prevent him from losing his reason.

"No one must know what I told you about this symphony's history," he said.

"God forbid!" I reassured him.

Afterwards people like Isaak Glikman and others accused me of having forced Shostakovich to write about Lenin.  They also implied that I made him join the Party -- as if my suggesting a symphony about Lenin wasn't enough!  I never condemned the Symphony because I could not betray a friend, even when he was wrong. [Shostakovich: A Life Remembered, pp.387-389]

Now, I think I made that musical connection, last night, between the Twelfth Symphony and the Festive Overture before I remembered this story.  He famously whipped off the Overture in a day or so as a generous favor to a friend in broadcasting who was in a bind.  And here, if we credit Lebedinsky, he chopped out a fresh Twelfth (we'll never know to what degree he redeemed material from the discarded satirical symphony) at about the same pace.

Okay, so Lebedinsky didn't like it.  Shostakovich's protestations are not necessarily to be taken at face value.  My wife paints quickly, and not infrequently she says she hates a painting when she has just finished it, and it is perfectly beautiful work.  Also, there was this obnoxious pressure of the public reception of A Lenin SymphonyShostakovich was certainly of a nervous character.

Quote from: Gennady RozhdestvenskyOnly many years later after I had conducted the Twelfth and recorded it on LP, did I understand that it was no worse than the Fourth [...] -- it is just different from it. [Shostakovich: A Life Remembered, p.387]

Apart from any other reason for the audience (and particularly the Western audience) to be cool towards the Twelfth Symphony, its première and that of the Fourth Symphony were held in quick succession . . . so comparisons between a symphony which was ostensibly a pæan to Lenin, and another symphony which had to be withdrawn rather than be taken as an artistic protest against life in The Worker's Paradise, were not going to favor the later work.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on August 23, 2016, 04:47:46 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 19, 2016, 04:11:06 PM
I I remember David Diamond being very unhappy with Bernstein's performance of his Symphony No. 4, but that was a great performance IMHO despite what the composer thought.

you get around :o



I lent the gruff old guy Inbal's 5th... as an experiment... he came back,... he thought the music was "too baroque" for him, and he liked more "classical stuff" like the 1812. So, that's how normies react to, say, DSCH,... probably could have been anyone...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: nathanb on August 23, 2016, 07:11:06 PM
Since this thread has a non-specific title, can we feel free to convert it to the Dmitri Kourliandski thread as we please? :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 24, 2016, 06:40:32 AM
[ Cross-post ]

My first experience of Shostakovich was when I was yet in high school, hearing the New Jersey All-State Band playing a transcription of the finale of the Fifth Symphony.  Loved it from the get go . . . but I certainly had no idea of the riches yet awaiting me . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on August 24, 2016, 06:50:50 AM
I heard the uh... I want to say Moscow Trio? perform the Trio No. 2 when I was about ten~ish, paired with Dvořák's Dumky Trio. Found the latter boring as shit, but was transfixed by the Shostakovich immediately from the glacially cold opening notes. The moment that made the greatest impression on me was proooobably Figure 91 in the finale, which in a properly histrionic Russian interpretation is one of the most shattering climaxes in music, yet avoids bringing a sense of relief due to the sweeping arpeggios in the piano part that immediately take over. I'm afraid to say that I proceeded to imitate that particular moment (not very skilfully) in a number of attempted or completed compositions, the last of which dates from when I was about sixteen. >_> Also the ending though, which did legitimately make me cry when I first heard it.

I've always retained at least a level of interest in Shostakovich as a result despite then around age 17~ish going through a period of hating him, which eventually mellowed to being mostly indifferent to his work apart from a few pieces. Certainly I care about him a lot more than I do about other artists in the same "mostly indifferent" category. Lol

Nathanb please create a Dmitri Kourliandski thread w/any information you have on him. Definitely interested to find a way into his work, which sounds interesting for sure, but not something I've got much out of beyond surface.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on August 24, 2016, 06:51:59 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 24, 2016, 06:40:32 AM
[ Cross-post ]
I am not sure how much Shostakovich I had heard before hearing Natalia Gutman play the Cello Concerto no. 2 with Anna-Maria Helsing and Oulu Symphony Orchestra. I certainly wanted to explore further, after that. Got her signature on the program, too, as she sat a couple of seats from me for the second half.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 26, 2016, 12:53:53 PM
I had an interesting Shostakovich-related experience on Saturday. My older brother who was a student at Cambridge university (unlike his not-so-clever younger brother  :() invited me as his guest to a series of lectures for Cambridge graduates and one of those related to DSCH. An academic called Marina Frolova-Walker gave a lecture on 'Stalin's Music Prize' (she has written a book of the same title). This including some interesting research on Stalin's own musical taste (Red Army Choir, folk songs etc). Anyway she had found the draft list of Stalin Prize winners during these years including Stalin's own marginal annotation. At one year, when Shostakovich had not been nominated Stalin had written 'Shostakovich?' In other words querying why Shostakovich had not been included. Elsewhere he had written 'HA-HA' in the margin where a Latvian composer had been nominated. In 1940 or 41 Shostakovich and Miaskovsky both achieved a Stalin Prize with the same number of votes from Agitprop (30 each). It was a First Class prize, which was much coveted as it carried the most money. As far as I recall Shostakovich was awarded it for his Piano Quintet and Miaskovsky for his eloquent Symphony 21. Then there was a second lecture by Elizabeth Wilson the author of 'Shostakovich: A Life Remembered' which, coincidentally I happen to be reading. I hadn't realised that she was a cello student of Rostropovich (who arrived six hours late for the lessons) and she had met Shostakovich. Her book is excellent. Her talk was about the pianist Maria Yudina (Stalin's favourite pianist although she was critical of the regime). There was some fascinating archive film of Shostakovich playing the piano part in his Piano Quintet and at other times. However, the highlight was at the end when three very talented young Cambridge music students played the last two movement of Shostakovich's Piano Trio No.2 live - it was worth being there for that alone.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: violadude on October 24, 2016, 07:19:25 AM
I have a question about Shostakovich's 1st symphony.

I was doing a bit of light research on this symphony and I discovered this quote on Wikipedia (not the most reliable source, I know..but...)

"The work begins with an introductory Allegretto section, which is developed from a duet between solo trumpet and bassoon. This leads into the first subject proper, a lively march-like Allegro reminiscent of the vaudeville and theatre music Shostakovich would have encountered during his time as a cinema pianist. The second subject is ostensibly a waltz, with the flute melody finding its way around several sections of the orchestra. The development section features a return to mock-comic grotesqueries, although the sonata-form structure of this movement is entirely conventional".

Is this how everyone else interprets the symphony's structure? Because I perceived it in a completely different light. Unlike the author of this wikipedia article, I thought the sonata form in this movement was quite unconventional and, in fact, interpreted it as a parody of a sonata form structure (which would fit the expressive quality of the piece anyway).

I don't see the point of calling the opening an introduction when it is fully integrated into the movement. I interpreted the movement as a sonata form with three themes/key areas (the opening/the march/the waltz). This idea appealed to me especially as it related to my sonata form-parody idea, because it would make it so that the first theme starts away from the main key area (f minor) and goes toward it leading into the second theme (which is in the main key), the exact opposite  harmonic motion of a traditional sonata form.

Also, it always seemed apparent to me that the recapitulation presents all three themes in backwards order from which they were represented in the exposition. Hardly what I would call "entirely conventional". Did they miss that? Or do I just suck at interpreting forms?

What are your thoughts?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on October 24, 2016, 01:38:14 PM
The Petrenko box of symphonies appears to basically agree with Wikipedia, in that it talks about the "First theme" being on the clarinet after the initial idea on trumpet. And describes the conclusion as "a paraphrase of the introduction".

I'll try to have a listen myself sometime today. I don't know the piece well enough to immediately tell you what I hear in its structure.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on October 24, 2016, 02:00:36 PM
Turns out I had some time to listen to it now...

I don't know about all this "parody" stuff, but I'm leaning towards your point of view. There are clearly traces of that "introduction" that appear in other parts of the movement.

At the same time, I can understand the other point of view as well, because it's perfectly possible to get a regular exposition-development-recapitulation out of the the other two groups on their own. During that, the first theme only ever comes back as a bit of an accompanying figure. It never asserts itself as the main event except at the very beginning and the very end.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Heck148 on October 24, 2016, 02:42:39 PM
Quote from: violadude on October 24, 2016, 07:19:25 AM
I have a question about Shostakovich's 1st symphony.

I was doing a bit of light research on this symphony and I discovered this quote on Wikipedia (not the most reliable source, I know..but...)

"The work begins with an introductory Allegretto section, which is developed from a duet between solo trumpet and bassoon. This leads into the first subject proper, a lively march-like Allegro reminiscent of the vaudeville and theatre music Shostakovich would have encountered during his time as a cinema pianist. The second subject is ostensibly a waltz, with the flute melody finding its way around several sections of the orchestra. The development section features a return to mock-comic grotesqueries, although the sonata-form structure of this movement is entirely conventional".

Is this how everyone else interprets the symphony's structure?

First - Shost #1 is one of my favorite "1st symphonies" - a remarkable creation by the still student composer, that already shows the unique genius that was to mature. I love listening to it, and it's a real blast to perform!!
OTTOMH, without consulting the score again - I don't think the beginning is really a separate "introduction" - tho it doe lead into the Allegro non troppo Clarinet solo.
I also don't think the wonderfully diabolical 2nd mvt is a "waltz" - it's a great scherzo, in 4/4 meter. great movement - and the spooky flute duet in parallel 5ths is esp effective in contrast to the devilish scurrying about of the main scherzo ideas...
mvts 3 and 4 are dynamite as well!!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mahlerian on October 25, 2016, 09:44:58 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on October 24, 2016, 02:00:36 PM
Turns out I had some time to listen to it now...

I don't know about all this "parody" stuff, but I'm leaning towards your point of view. There are clearly traces of that "introduction" that appear in other parts of the movement.

At the same time, I can understand the other point of view as well, because it's perfectly possible to get a regular exposition-development-recapitulation out of the the other two groups on their own. During that, the first theme only ever comes back as a bit of an accompanying figure. It never asserts itself as the main event except at the very beginning and the very end.

It should be noted that introductions can present material that's separate from the exposition and yet appears elsewhere in a movement.  See Schumann's First and Second Symphonies, Schubert's Ninth, and Mahler's First (which Shostakovich almost certainly didn't know at the time) for examples.

That said, I am sympathetic towards accepting the opening bars as part of the exposition proper.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 25, 2016, 10:53:13 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 25, 2016, 09:44:58 AM
It should be noted that introductions can present material that's separate from the exposition and yet appears elsewhere in a movement.  See Schumann's First and Second Symphonies, Schubert's Ninth, and Mahler's First (which Shostakovich almost certainly didn't know at the time) for examples.

That said, I am sympathetic towards accepting the opening bars as part of the exposition proper.

Quote from: violadude on October 24, 2016, 07:19:25 AM
I don't see the point of calling the opening an introduction when it is fully integrated into the movement.

Going back to Tchaikovsky at the least, there is often a "motto," material which returns periodically in the course of either a single movement's sonata-allegro design, or indeed periodically in all the symphony's movements (so, reaching back to the "cyclic" idea in the LvB c minor symphony).  So the opening trumpet figure could be considered a motto rather than the first theme of the sonata, partly because of the literary precedent.  For me the strongest argument is probably that that trumpet figure is not particularly in f minor (the entire introduction wanders rather, tonally, so that Shostakovich does not trouble to use any key signature); where the first theme does in fact establish the home key of the symphony.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on October 25, 2016, 03:53:32 PM
The structure is unconventional in a number of ways, although, at a superficial glance, there are aspects that look quite conventional. The structure of the exposition, cued to rehearsal numbers, looks conventional:

1-7 - Introduction
8-11 - Theme One, tonic
12-17 - Second Theme, mediant

You are right to point out, however, that the introduction is fully integrated into the movement. Its opening motive is the basis of Theme One and, less obviously, the contour and rhythm of Theme Two's main motive. In this respect its role is like that of a motto, as in Beethoven 5, Franck's D minor or Rachmaninoff's Second. The "point of calling the opening an introduction," however, has more to do with its role in the symphony as a whole, on which scale it is the most important element of all. The theme of the scherzo and at least one from the finale are derived from it. So, not part of the exposition in the first movement, but the essential exposition for the overall structure.

One thing that makes the introduction seem unconventional to me is how nebulous and wandering it is, almost as if the movement began in the middle of an unstable development. It seems more like Shostakovich's finale introductions than a traditional opening-movement introduction.

Where I think both your reading and Wiki get into trouble is the recap, which is truncated and entirely devoted to Theme Two. It begins in the tonic major at 32 and runs through 37. But note that in the end of the development we had an intense statement of the motto as the climax (29), just as we do in Tchaikovsky 4, Rachmaninoff 2, and Shostakovich 10, and then a version of Theme One at 30 (which also has a parallel in Tchaik 4 and Shost 10). Thus all of the themes are reviewed in their original order, but in a way that is conventional only in the "Russian variant" of sonata form. The real recap is unconventional except in its key.

The movement ends with an extended coda, 38-45, which includes a reprise and intensification of a loud passage from the development, and variants of Theme One and the motto which do indeed sound in reverse order. This kind of extended developmental coda isn't conventional, but has been used by composers with their eyes on cyclic unity since Beethoven.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: violadude on November 29, 2016, 01:49:23 AM
I've been reviewing my Shostakovich collection over the past month or so. I have all the symphonies and string quartets, the 24 Preludes and Fugues, The Piano Quintet, the Cello Sonata, the First Cello Concerto and some 2 Movements for String Quartet that came with the Emerson box set of quartets, I think it's a transcription of something. I was previously very familiar with the string quartets but not as much with the symphonies. I wanted to share my thoughts, for now, on the symphonies...then later the others.

Symphony #1: This symphony, I think, is quite brilliant considering the age at which Shostakovich wrote it. Many of his main signiture expressive qualities are already there, particularly the biting wit/sarcasm that appears in so many of his works. Humor can be a tough thing to express in music but Shostakovich seems to have it down from day one. I especially enjoy the sparse orchestration employed in the first movement, giving every instrument a little momentary spotlight. I also like some of the soloistic scoring for the string instruments, a particular moment at the end of the 3rd movement comes to mind. Speaking of the third movement, the main melody has a very mature, longing quality that, I think, is surprising coming from a 19 year old. Overall, not one of my favorites, but a very amazing first effort and a sign of things to come definitely.

Symphony #2: Contrary to popular opinion, I actually really like this symphony. Well...I mean, I really like the instrumental portion of the symphony. The choral section isn't too great, obviously, but even that part isn't THAT bad. I think it's better than the choral section of the 3rd. I love the amorphous opening and the way that it comes together at the end. Also, that quadrillion voice fugue in the middle of the fast section is really something else (okay, it's really more like 15 or so, but still...someone probably knows the exact number).

Symphony #3: I had a lot of trouble getting into this one. It's universally panned so I guess I don't feel too bad about it. There are some kinda cool individual moments but it seems to spend a lot of time going nowhere...even before the chorus comes in. And then after the chorus comes in..oh boy. I could barely feel where the music was going at some parts. Is this the climax? the end of a climax? The beginning of one? Is it a new phrase? It just seems to go on and on trying to build itself from nothing. Maybe that was the point...I don't know.

Symphony #4: One of my favorites. MAN what a juggernaut of a work. The labyrinth like 1st movement is incredible. It took me a while to figure out what was going on in the movement or what was related to what, but after like 20 listens or so I think I have a pretty good general idea. The intensity of expression in this first movement alone is enough to keep anyone on the edge of their seat. Feels like Shostakovich is really throwing himself head-first into the hands of modernism.I also love the very eerie second movement, which feels laid back and nervous at the same time, somehow. I haven't fully gotten my head around the last movement as much as the first two. Seems to me like it's an anthology of Shostakovichy dance numbers proceeded by a funeral march. I like when the funeral march theme comes back at the end of the movement though. That theme seems to have some sort of relationship to the main theme of the first movement, well they start nearly identically anyway.

Symphony #5: I'm probably the most familiar with this one, having played the entire thing when I was in my city's youth symphony orchestra. I like it, but it's not one of my favorites. The first movement is really good, the second movement is super fun. The third movement is my favorite and maybe one of the most beautiful heartbreaking things the composer ever wrote. I love the ending with the harp on harmonics and celesta in unison. The fourth movement really doesn't do much for me though. I don't really put much stalk into things like "secret codes" and whatnot, personally. I do kind of like just how labor-intensive that final cadence is though.

Symphony #6: I like this one pretty well. The galop final movement is really fun. But what I really like is how the first movement sounds like it's going to be a standard kind of slow movement, but suddenly the development section ends up being almost entirely dominated by these lonely solos over mysterious, eerie trills in the lower strings. After that whole middle section of the movement ends and we get back to "normal sounding" music (relatively) it almost feels like coming up for air after being under a blanket for a while.

Symphony #7: Had trouble getting into this one a little bit. I really like the second movement. I think I like the third movement pretty well. This is the only one though that I don't really have a clear idea of how I feel about it though, not yet anyway. Seems like a very mixed bag and sometimes goes on for too long (to me) for what it is.

Symphony #8: This is another favorite of mine. When people say Shostakovich is too depressing, this is one of the ones I immediately think of. This symphony is relentlessly horrifying and full of pain, a very harrowing work I would say. Even though it's my favorite I am surprisingly not able to think of much to say about it for right now (it's late, so that might be why). The 4th movement though is like an exact musical replica of a shadowy something, whether it be a thought or figure or whatever. It reeks of a very dark and dim place, especially once those creepy fluttertongue woodwinds come in.

Symphony #9: This is a really fun symphony, which I suppose is obvious to any one whose heard it. I think I chuckled out loud when I first heard the multiple "wrong entrances" of the trumpet second theme in the recap of the first movement. I don't think of this one as one of my favorites, but it's always a joy to listen to.

Symphony #10: Another favorite. The melodies of the first movement and, especially how they fit together feels like magic. At the climax of the movement it almost seems like everything is collapsing and coming together at the same time. The melodies in here are especially memorable to me. I really enjoy the crooked waltz feel of the 3rd movement and the goofy main theme of the 4th movement is great. It seems very unique to me. It goes by so fast and is still very lyrical...or something. (I really shouldn't have waited until 2 in the morning to type this).

Symphony #11: I like this one pretty well, especially the second movement, of course. It's not as satisfying to me on the whole though, even though it has some really great moments. I like the atmosphere of the first movement, but I think it slightly overstays its welcome and becomes rather repetitive. The 3rd movement is really good too. Not sure what to feel about that last movement though....sounds kind of forced to me and it leaves me a little wanting.

Symphony #12: Atrocious. The worst by far in my estimation. I only listened once and never came back to it. Unless another recording does it justice, it will probably stay that way, at least for a while.

Symphony #13: The last 3 symphonies are amazing, among the best imo. I love how earthy and Russiany the 13th sounds. The choir has great power even though it's used in unison almost throughout. The first movement just seems perfect to me. The pace at which the phrases build and recede is breathtaking. The second movement is just a blast. The 4th movement has some really imaginative scoring. I like the message of the 5th movement. The melody somehow reminds me of something in his 6th string quartet, but I don't know what.

Symphony #14: I'm kind of a sucker for these uncompromisingly bleak pieces of music. I just love it. Something about how dark it all is really connect with me. But besides that, what I find so fascinating about this movement is that even though it's written for the least diverse ensembles of any Shostakovich symphony, somehow the limitation of the forces his was using caused Shostakovich to dig deeper for whatever kind of color he could use for this symphony and, to me anyway, it ends up being, perhaps the most, imaginatively scored symphonies of them all. Every movement seems to have something special, the bleakness of the first, or the Spanish flavor of the second, the nervous, near schizophrenic jumping around of the 3rd, the emotional intensity of the 4th, the manic quality of the 5th, the laughing lady of the 6th, that brilliant col legno fugue of the 7th, the angry clusters that end the 8th, the soulful ray of hope in the 9th, then the 10th seems to wrap up the piece as a whole, with the little 11th movement being a weirdly cheerful little bow on top.

Symphony #15: This is a very special symphony, maybe his best when it all comes down to it. I don't really have the grasp on this symphony to write about it in detail like I wish I could, but something about the craft of every moment seems just perfect. And it seems to contain everything that Shostakovich was about, but not parsed out like in the rest of his symphonies, but molded into one, so that almost every point moment in this symphony seems like a perfect balance of every quality that was in his previous symphonies. I don't know, it's hard to explain. But it's a very stimulating symphony too. The outer movements especially have a lot going on, which I like. Shostakovich symphonies have always contained a lot of polyphony, but for a majority of his symphony movements I feel like you can hear the moments being carefully plodded out, whereas this one seems little more "balls to the wall". I guess it's almost like a perfect combination of youthful exuberance and mature craft. Maybe that's what makes this one sound so special. I don't know. I've rambled on way too much.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 29, 2016, 06:44:08 AM
Nice writeup, violadude. Our thoughts almost mirror each other in terms of which symphonies we like and don't like. I will say, however, that the 7th is a grower. It took me quite some time to get it. I first thought it was a lot of hot air, but then I looked deeper into what's actually happening under the surface. That Adagio in this symphony is simply heart-rendering and everything else is just icing on the cake. You should hear Bernstein's CSO performance or Rozhdestvensky's (w/ the USSR Ministry of Culture Symphony Orchestra). I think these two performances would help open your ears to it.

I was looking at your collection and you're missing almost all of the concerti. You just own Cello Concerto No. 1? Man, you've got to get the others!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mahlerian on November 29, 2016, 08:24:53 AM
Quote from: violadude on November 29, 2016, 01:49:23 AMSymphony #4: One of my favorites. MAN what a juggernaut of a work. The labyrinth like 1st movement is incredible. It took me a while to figure out what was going on in the movement or what was related to what, but after like 20 listens or so I think I have a pretty good general idea. The intensity of expression in this first movement alone is enough to keep anyone on the edge of their seat. Feels like Shostakovich is really throwing himself head-first into the hands of modernism.I also love the very eerie second movement, which feels laid back and nervous at the same time, somehow. I haven't fully gotten my head around the last movement as much as the first two. Seems to me like it's an anthology of Shostakovichy dance numbers proceeded by a funeral march. I like when the funeral march theme comes back at the end of the movement though. That theme seems to have some sort of relationship to the main theme of the first movement, well they start nearly identically anyway.

The finale of the work is structured ABA' Coda, with the A sections being the funeral marches, but the B is very long and stream-of-consciousness, flitting from one idea to the next based on some motif linking them.  The funeral march theme head is actually characterized by outlining the "Viennese Trichord," a perfect fourth followed by a tritone.  Eventually we start to hear premonitions of what will be the motif of the coda, but in the major (see image; I don't remember what tonality it appears in first, so I put it in A).  This leads to the violent climax, based on the themes of A, in the major but filled with dissonant clashes.  The motif shown in the attachment also appears.

When this subsides, there is a long, drawn out coda, at first based on the same motifs mentioned above, but then dominated by an obsessively repeating celesta solo over a long-held C minor chord on the strings.  The work ends simply by breaking the pattern and the celesta finishes on a question mark.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Heck148 on November 29, 2016, 08:25:27 AM
Violadude - nice summation of a huge topic...I tend to agree with many of your preferences -
I really love the First Sym - quite an incredible effort for one so young - already the signs of genius are apparent...
#s 2, 3 - I like the instrumental portions, esp 3, but the choral anthems to the great proletarian revoultion, yakety-yak, blah-blah, I could do without.
#4 is neat, fun to listen to, but rather "disjointed", or perhaps episodic...still, a wonderful work, and still retains DS's flashy flamboyant orchestration - so evident in the big Ballets and Lady Macbeth...starting with #5, Ds's orchestrations take on a much darker hue...
#5 is best known, and perhaps deservedly so,
#6 -kind of a dark horse...dark, sardonic, thru 2 mvts, capped off with wonderful orchestral "galop".
#7 is a favorite - I've performed it twice - great experience...huge work, so much there

8, 10 are really superior works, IMO,
#9 - great favorite - I've played it several times, has special significance for me in the progress of my own musical performance career [can't miss for a bassoonist!! :D]
#11 - under-rated - really good piece, the slow movement is really quite lovely, amidst the "sturm und drang" of the overall work.
#12 - this one's a loser...seems to lack direction and focus - supposedly DS felt this way about it - if Volkov is to be believed ?? :-\

13 - not so familiar with this one yet...I like it so far
#14 - gawd, this is dark stuff...I cannot listen to the entire work at one sitting. too much...very powerful, but dark and depressing
#15 - almost reverts to #1 in some ways, tho vastly more mature in so many ways..but still - exhibits the quirkiness, the imagination of the composer who cranked out such a remarkable Sym #1.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: violadude on November 29, 2016, 09:01:58 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 29, 2016, 06:44:08 AM
Nice writeup, violadude. Our thoughts almost mirror each other in terms of which symphonies we like and don't like. I will say, however, that the 7th is a grower. It took me quite some time to get it. I first thought it was a lot of hot air, but then I looked deeper into what's actually happening under the surface. That Adagio in this symphony is simply heart-rendering and everything else is just icing on the cake. You should hear Bernstein's CSO performance or Rozhdestvensky's (w/ the USSR Ministry of Culture Symphony Orchestra). I think these two performances would help open your ears to it.

I was looking at your collection and you're missing almost all of the concerti. You just own Cello Concerto No. 1? Man, you've got to get the others!

Ya I know. I saw the 1st cello concerto in concert once and was so blown away I had to buy it. That CD is where the cello sonata in my collection comes from as well. I just haven't gotten around to getting the others.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: violadude on November 29, 2016, 09:02:57 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 29, 2016, 08:24:53 AM
The finale of the work is structured ABA' Coda, with the A sections being the funeral marches, but the B is very long and stream-of-consciousness, flitting from one idea to the next based on some motif linking them.  The funeral march theme head is actually characterized by outlining the "Viennese Trichord," a perfect fourth followed by a tritone.  Eventually we start to hear premonitions of what will be the motif of the coda, but in the major (see image; I don't remember what tonality it appears in first, so I put it in A).  This leads to the violent climax, based on the themes of A, in the major but filled with dissonant clashes.  The motif shown in the attachment also appears.

When this subsides, there is a long, drawn out coda, at first based on the same motifs mentioned above, but then dominated by an obsessively repeating celesta solo over a long-held C minor chord on the strings.  The work ends simply by breaking the pattern and the celesta finishes on a question mark.

Cool! I'll keep this in mind when I listen to the finale next. It'll probably clear things right up.  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Keep Going on November 29, 2016, 09:10:29 AM
Quote from: violadude on November 29, 2016, 09:01:58 AM
I saw the 1st cello concerto in concert once and was so blown away I had to buy it.

The moderato is particularly majestic.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 29, 2016, 11:10:05 AM
Quote from: violadude on November 29, 2016, 09:01:58 AM
Ya I know. I saw the 1st cello concerto in concert once and was so blown away I had to buy it. That CD is where the cello sonata in my collection comes from as well. I just haven't gotten around to getting the others.

Well, if you need some recommendations, you know who to ask. ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mahlerian on November 29, 2016, 11:14:04 AM
Quote from: violadude on November 29, 2016, 09:02:57 AM
Cool! I'll keep this in mind when I listen to the finale next. It'll probably clear things right up.  :)

Don't get me wrong, it's still a very convoluted and strange movement, but also a very rewarding one.  Although the actual sonority and harmony are closer to Hindemith crossed with Berg, the symphony as a whole is Shostakovich's most Mahler-like in terms of form and development.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 29, 2016, 11:16:57 AM
Quote from: Heck148 on November 29, 2016, 08:25:27 AM
Violadude - nice summation of a huge topic...I tend to agree with many of your preferences -
I really love the First Sym - quite an incredible effort for one so young - already the signs of genius are apparent...
#s 2, 3 - I like the instrumental portions, esp 3, but the choral anthems to the great proletarian revoultion, yakety-yak, blah-blah, I could do without.
#4 is neat, fun to listen to, but rather "disjointed", or perhaps episodic...still, a wonderful work, and still retains DS's flashy flamboyant orchestration - so evident in the big Ballets and Lady Macbeth...starting with #5, Ds's orchestrations take on a much darker hue...
#5 is best known, and perhaps deservedly so,
#6 -kind of a dark horse...dark, sardonic, thru 2 mvts, capped off with wonderful orchestral "galop".
#7 is a favorite - I've performed it twice - great experience...huge work, so much there

8, 10 are really superior works, IMO,
#9 - great favorite - I've played it several times, has special significance for me in the progress of my own musical performance career [can't miss for a bassoonist!! :D]
#11 - under-rated - really good piece, the slow movement is really quite lovely, amidst the "sturm und drang" of the overall work.
#12 - this one's a loser...seems to lack direction and focus - supposedly DS felt this way about it - if Volkov is to be believed ?? :-\

13 - not so familiar with this one yet...I like it so far
#14 - gawd, this is dark stuff...I cannot listen to the entire work at one sitting. too much...very powerful, but dark and depressing
#15 - almost reverts to #1 in some ways, tho vastly more mature in so many ways..but still - exhibits the quirkiness, the imagination of the composer who cranked out such a remarkable Sym #1.

Another nice writeup. I'd definitely give Babi Yar more of your time. It's truly a fantastic piece and I agree with you about the 14th. A brooding work that barely casts any light into the music whatsoever, but I'm more and more intrigued by it. It's certainly a fascinating symphony (errr...song cycle). :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on November 29, 2016, 11:41:50 AM
Thanks Violadude! I've been going through the symphonies lately too. Funny about 12: The main theme is almost identical to one from a slow movement of Myaskovsky, I think #17? I'll have to listen again to see if I can find 12 as repugnant as you do. ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 29, 2016, 11:50:59 AM
Quote from: BasilValentine on November 29, 2016, 11:41:50 AM
Thanks Violadude! I've been going through the symphonies lately too. Funny about 12: The main theme is almost identical to one from a slow movement of Myaskovsky, I think #17? I'll have to listen again to see if I can find 12 as repugnant as you do. ;)

I wouldn't say that the 12th is as atrocious (to use ViolaDude's wording) as he says. Does it have it's flaws? Absolutely, but so do the 2nd and 3rd, which are also the weak links in Shostakovich's, otherwise, monumental symphonic cycle IMHO, although the 2nd is certainly becoming more enjoyable for me. The 12th could be looked at as a work with an empty rhetoric, but I think there is something in this symphony that I find redeeming --- if anything it has an undeniable energy to it that I find rather appealing. Listen to the Mravinsky live recording on Erato. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by how he shapes this particular symphony.

You can checkout the Mravinsky performance here:

https://www.youtube.com/v/K_IGkwov3EM
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on November 29, 2016, 12:07:22 PM
The programme might not be as effective as in No. 11, but from a purely musical standpoint there is absolutely nothing wrong at all with No. 12. In fact, it was one of the most immediately attractive symphonies in the cycle for me.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 29, 2016, 12:10:37 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on November 29, 2016, 12:07:22 PM
The programme might not be as effective as in No. 11, but from a purely musical standpoint there is absolutely nothing wrong at all with No. 12. In fact, it was one of the most immediately attractive symphonies in the cycle for me.

I'm trying to remember the first Shostakovich symphony I heard, must have been the 5th. The wit and sarcasm in Shostakvoich's music took awhile to grow on me, but as soon as I started listening further through the symphony cycle, I was hooked even though I didn't really understand some of the music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mahlerian on November 29, 2016, 12:56:53 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on November 29, 2016, 12:07:22 PM
The programme might not be as effective as in No. 11, but from a purely musical standpoint there is absolutely nothing wrong at all with No. 12. In fact, it was one of the most immediately attractive symphonies in the cycle for me.

I don't care about the program.  It's just that the music itself is so bland and repetitive that it gets irritating.  The whole thing is something like 7 minutes of material stretched out to cover 40 minutes; the badness of the work is so famous that stories have grown up around it suggesting (without any other evidence) that Shostakovich threw it together in a few days in place of a more subversive work.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 29, 2016, 01:19:53 PM
I still like the 12th despite what others have said about it. Granted, it's not an all out favorite, but that doesn't diminish the rush of energy I get from it. Not a work of emotional depth at all, but if Shostakovich didn't much care for it himself, then he would have thrown it in the trash can or burned it I imagine. He once said "A creative artist works on his next composition because he is not satisfied with his previous one. When he loses a critical attitude toward his own work, he ceases to be an artist." Like I said, had he disliked the work vehemently, we wouldn't be discussing it. It must have meant something to him and that's good enough for me.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Heck148 on November 29, 2016, 02:57:04 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 29, 2016, 01:19:53 PM
I still like the 12th despite what others have said about it. Granted, it's not an all out favorite, but that doesn't diminish the rush of energy I get from it. Not a work of emotional depth at all, but if Shostakovich didn't much care for it himself, then he would have thrown it in the trash can or burned it I imagine. He once said "A creative artist works on his next composition because he is not satisfied with his previous one. When he loses a critical attitude toward his own work, he ceases to be an artist." Like I said, had he disliked the work vehemently, we wouldn't be discussing it. It must have meant something to him and that's good enough for me.

I'm not sure DS disliked the 12th symphony, per se, but, according to Volkov's book - Shostakovich claimed that he sort of lost his way midway thru it - he  started with one idea, then changed horses in midstream, so to speak...it lost direction. Whether Volkov is accurate or not, who knows?? but that assessment of the piece sounds pretty accurate to me - it comes off as "unfocused".
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 29, 2016, 02:59:16 PM
Quote from: Heck148 on November 29, 2016, 02:57:04 PM
I'm not sure DS disliked the 12th symphony, per se, but, according to Volkov's book - Shostakovich claimed that he sort of lost his way midway thru it - he  started with one idea, then changed horses in midstream, so to speak...it lost direction. Whether Volkov is accurate or not, who knows?? but that assessment of the piece sounds pretty accurate to me - it comes off as "unfocused".

But how much of Volkov's book on Shostakovich is actually factual? Not that this has much to do with the quality of a piece of music. Like I said, it's not a favorite work, but I don't downright hate it as some people appear to here.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on November 29, 2016, 03:05:50 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 29, 2016, 02:59:16 PM
But how much of Volkov's book on Shostakovich is actually factual? Not that this has much to do with the quality of a piece of music. Like I said, it's not a favorite work, but I don't downright hate it as some people appear to here.

There is no way to know how much is authentic, which is why no statement in Testimony uncorroborated in other sources can be assumed to be the words of Shostakovich or to reflect his beliefs.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 29, 2016, 03:14:38 PM
Quote from: BasilValentine on November 29, 2016, 03:05:50 PM
There is no way to know how much is authentic, which is why no statement in Testimony uncorroborated in other sources can be assumed to be the words of Shostakovich or to reflect his beliefs.

I never read the book myself, but it always raised an eyebrow from me. Speaking of books, I have been enjoying reading this one:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51OD3JUH09L._SX346_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Heck148 on November 29, 2016, 03:24:40 PM
Quote from: BasilValentine on November 29, 2016, 03:05:50 PM
There is no way to know how much is authentic, which is why no statement in Testimony uncorroborated in other sources can be assumed to be the words of Shostakovich or to reflect his beliefs.
Right, it's a fascinating read, but the authenticity is certainly open to question.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on November 29, 2016, 04:10:08 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 29, 2016, 03:14:38 PM
I never read the book myself, but it always raised an eyebrow from me. Speaking of books, I have been enjoying reading this one:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51OD3JUH09L._SX346_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Fanning also wrote a monograph on the 10th symphony (The Breath of the Symphonist) that is pretty good. And he edited at least one other collections of essays on Shostakovich.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 29, 2016, 04:44:07 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 29, 2016, 02:59:16 PM
But how much of Volkov's book on Shostakovich is actually factual? Not that this has much to do with the quality of a piece of music. Like I said, it's not a favorite work, but I don't downright hate it as some people appear to here.

I agree with you.  I quite enjoy No. 12 as an effective communist populist work.  I don't see it as propaganda but populist.  It is somewhat shallow though a shallow work from a great composer.  I believe Volkov should be dismissed.   He fails on too many tests to be taken seriously as a reliable source.   I think Shosty is much more complex than Volkov portrays him to be. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 29, 2016, 05:26:50 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 29, 2016, 04:44:07 PM
I agree with you.  I quite enjoy No. 12 as an effective communist populist work.  I don't see it as propaganda but populist.  It is somewhat shallow though a shallow work from a great composer.  I believe Volkov should be dismissed.   He fails on too many tests to be taken seriously as a reliable source.   I think Shosty is much more complex than Volkov portrays him to be.

You're probably right about Volkov. Shostakovich's own personality and his complicated musical persona can't be pinned down by some mere anecdotes that may or may not have been said.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Heck148 on November 29, 2016, 06:29:11 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 29, 2016, 04:44:07 PM
I agree with you.  I quite enjoy No. 12 as an effective communist populist work.  I don't see it as propaganda but populist.  It is somewhat shallow though a shallow work from a great composer.  I believe Volkov should be dismissed.   He fails on too many tests to be taken seriously as a reliable source.   I think Shosty is much more complex than Volkov portrays him to be.
I don't know about Volkov...a lot of his things are corroborated by other musicians and acquaintances of DS, but much seems rather dubious, as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on November 30, 2016, 03:35:41 AM
Quote from: Heck148 on November 29, 2016, 06:29:11 PM
I don't know about Volkov...a lot of his things are corroborated by other musicians and acquaintances of DS, but much seems rather dubious, as well.

Well, that is the sad part, isn't it? There might be authentic gems in there, thoughts and anecdotes that are recorded nowhere else, but they can't be trusted because the overwhelming case for fraud was made within a year of its publication and never refuted.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on November 30, 2016, 04:16:20 AM
Quote from: Heck148 on November 29, 2016, 02:57:04 PM
I'm not sure DS disliked the 12th symphony, per se, but, according to Volkov's book - Shostakovich claimed that he sort of lost his way midway thru it - he  started with one idea, then changed horses in midstream, so to speak...it lost direction. Whether Volkov is accurate or not, who knows?? but that assessment of the piece sounds pretty accurate to me - it comes off as "unfocused".

That story apparently goes back to Lev Lebedinsky, one of the principal gossip-mongers on whom Volkov is thought to have relied for
Testimony by those who think the book is a fraud. Laurel Fay has suggested that Lebedinsky's facts are sort of correct but that the time frame is off. She says there was indeed an earlier version of the 12th in piano score the summer of the year before its premiere, but that Shostakovich almost surely created the familiar version well ahead of time and not in a four-day rush. A sketch for the earlier version apparently had music from Satires (op. 109) interpolated on its page 26, and this probably accounts for Lebedinsky's claim that the 12th was to be a Lenin satire. Sounds to me like Lebedinsky made a hash of several imperfect recollections.

I have to agree with Violadude and Mahlerian about the quality of the 12th. I too think it is the least of the symphonies, although there is evidence that it had some mass-appeal among the proletariat. What is painfully funny about the genesis of the work is that for years Shostakovich had deflected inquiries about his future composition plans by claiming that he was writing a symphony about Lenin — a cheap and easy way to convince anyone who cared that the composer was at work on something grandiose and thoroughly patriotic. He did this after the success of the 5th, but then followed through with a 6th symphony that had nothing to do with it. Seems he painted himself into a corner and finally had to actually produce this mythical and long-forecast Lenin symphony. The result is ... understandably underwhelming.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 30, 2016, 06:30:17 AM
Quote from: BasilValentine on November 30, 2016, 03:35:41 AM
Well, that is the sad part, isn't it? There might be authentic gems in there, thoughts and anecdotes that are recorded nowhere else, but they can't be trusted because the overwhelming case for fraud was made within a year of its publication and never refuted.

Volkov claimed that all of the meeting notes he took were signed by DS indicating an authenticity.  He only produced examples of these signatures from interviews and documents dating decades before Volkov claimed.  He never produced a single document from the 1970's when he claimed DS was shaping his memoirs with Volkov's assistance.  Irina also claimed DS was in very bad physical shape when Volkov claims to have conducted all the interviews.  In short, she claims he was a very minor visitor during a time when she never left DS's side rather than a trusted confidant.  Tishchenko also believed the book was a fabrication using preexisting material as if it were new and embellished, contrived material.  In short, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence and Volkov never provided the evidence he claimed he had. 

I would love to read "A Pitiful Fake: About the So-Called "Memoirs" of D. D. Shostakovich (1979)   Letter to the editor of Literaturnaia gazeta written by Tishchenko and six other composers if anyone can find it.  Searching google hasn't turned up the letter.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 30, 2016, 06:41:37 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 30, 2016, 06:30:17 AMI would love to read "A Pitiful Fake: About the So-Called "Memoirs" of D. D. Shostakovich (1979)   Letter to the editor of Literaturnaia gazeta written by Tishchenko and six other composers if anyone can find it.  Searching google hasn't turned up the letter.

I'd love to read this as well. It would be a fascinating read for sure.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 30, 2016, 06:45:57 AM
I always found this an interest observation:

"To me he seemed like a trapped man, whose only wish was to be left alone, to the peace of his own art and to the tragic destiny to which he, like most of his countrymen, has been forced to resign himself."  Nicholas Nabokov on meeting Shostakovich in 1949 in New York.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Heck148 on November 30, 2016, 07:37:39 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 30, 2016, 06:45:57 AM
I always found this an interest observation:

"To me he seemed like a trapped man, whose only wish was to be left alone, to the peace of his own art and to the tragic destiny to which he, like most of his countrymen, has been forced to resign himself."  Nicholas Nabokov on meeting Shostakovich in 1949 in New York.

there's alot to be said for it - of the 3 great Russian composers of the 20th Century - Stravinsky, Shostakovich and Prokofieff, DS is the one who remained in Russia throughout his life, and experienced first hand the cosmic, devastating events that afflicted that nation -
Did any nation suffer a more brutal fate in the 20th century than Russia?? China, Poland, perhaps, but Russia is right in there. DS lived thru it all - the First World War, the Revolution, the Stalin years of terror, WWII, the Cold War...Shostakovich, IMO, consciously or not, tried to express this experience in his music - a huge topic, of course, no one person could hope to encompass it all - but he nonetheless tried...his works can be long, sprawled out, episodic..dark, brooding, gloomy, horrifically violent and stormy; humorous, tho always with a sardonic twist; triumphant, tho always with a dark undertone...

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 30, 2016, 07:41:54 AM
Not to be morbid but reading this conversation between DSCH and Slava breaks your heart:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61dOL3hmNnL.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 30, 2016, 09:32:22 AM
Nice to see the Dacha hopping. For the moment, I'll just add my appreciation for violadude's and Heck's thumbnail surveys.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 30, 2016, 10:35:57 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 30, 2016, 07:41:54 AM
Not to be morbid but reading this conversation between DSCH and Slava breaks your heart:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61dOL3hmNnL.jpg)
Yes, a moving story and I can understand as Symphony 4 IMHO is the greatest of them. Rostropovich tells the story that Shostakovich used to phone him and say 'come over here immediately!' - Rostropovich would turn up - Shostakovich would then, pointing to a seat, say 'sit down there' - Rostropovich sat down. Shostakovich didn't say anything else at all until, after some time, he'd say 'ok you can leave now'.
He just wanted Rostropovich to be with him. I find it a very touching story.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 30, 2016, 10:38:22 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 30, 2016, 10:35:57 AM
Yes, a moving story and I can understand as Symphony 4 IMHO is the greatest of them. Rostropovich tells the story that Shostakovich used to phone him and say 'come over here immediately!' - Rostropovich would turn up - Shostakovich would then, pointing to a seat, say 'sit down there' - Rostropovich sat down. Shostakovich didn't say anything else at all until, after some time, he'd say 'ok you can leave now'.
He just wanted Rostropovich to be with him. I find it a very touching story.
I don't know the life stories of these 2 gents...why was Slava allowed to leave but Dmitri had to stay?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 30, 2016, 10:55:39 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 30, 2016, 10:38:22 AM
I don't know the life stories of these 2 gents...why was Slava allowed to leave but Dmitri had to stay?
I think that Slava was more politically outspoken than Dmitri but this may not be the main reason.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 30, 2016, 10:59:41 AM
OK - Slava sheltered the writer Solzhenitsyn who was in disgrace with the regime and spoke out on behalf of political dissidents. His touring abroad was restricted - so he left the USSR.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on November 30, 2016, 11:51:03 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 30, 2016, 06:30:17 AM
Volkov claimed that all of the meeting notes he took were signed by DS indicating an authenticity.  He only produced examples of these signatures from interviews and documents dating decades before Volkov claimed.  He never produced a single document from the 1970's when he claimed DS was shaping his memoirs with Volkov's assistance.  Irina also claimed DS was in very bad physical shape when Volkov claims to have conducted all the interviews.  In short, she claims he was a very minor visitor during a time when she never left DS's side rather than a trusted confidant.  Tishchenko also believed the book was a fabrication using preexisting material as if it were new and embellished, contrived material.  In short, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence and Volkov never provided the evidence he claimed he had. 

I would love to read "A Pitiful Fake: About the So-Called "Memoirs" of D. D. Shostakovich (1979)   Letter to the editor of Literaturnaia gazeta written by Tishchenko and six other composers if anyone can find it.  Searching google hasn't turned up the letter.

The letter by Tishchencko et alia is translated and presented in full in Chapter 4 of Malcolm Hamrick Brown's A Shostakovich Casebook (pp. 80-84). This invaluable resource begins with Laurel Fay's original denunciation of Testimony, "Shostakovich versus Volkov: Whose Testimony" (1980), and this essay addresses the issues raised above in your first paragraph. The basic facts Fay presents are as follows:

Volkov's main proof for the authenticity of Testimony is Shostakovich's initials entered in the composer's hand on the first page of each chapter of the original typescript. However, all but one of these initial pages reproduces almost word for word the first page of an article previously published under the composer's name, with alterations made to eliminate time sensitive references. Then, on page two, each chapter departs from the previously published material, sometimes almost incoherently. This fact alone undercuts Volkov's claim about the very nature of the book. Given that Testimony is allegedly the words of the composer taken down by Volkov in shorthand while Shostakovich was speaking, we are asked to believe that Shostakovich started each of his little talks with Volkov by reciting verbatim a few hundred words from the first page of a published article, a few of which he probably didn't write in the first place. This, as Fay points out, is ludicrous. The scenario she suggests is that Volkov, who was acting as an editor of Sovetskaya Musika, came to Shostakovich with a plan to collect the composer's previous publications under one cover. Accordingly, he presented Shostakovich with a stack of these articles typed up, which the composer was happy to approve. Why should he care? They were previously published and had passed the censors. Then, Fay hints, Volkov likely extracted the first pages with the initials indicating DSCH's approval, discarded the rest of the previously published material, and substituted his own fabricated text for the rest of each chapter.

In any case, Fay repeatedly asked to examine the actual transcript of the conversations from which the book was made, which Volkov always claimed to have in his possession. This would have gone a long way to neutralizing Fay's allegations. Tellingly, Volkov was never willing to produce it — for reasons I take to be obvious. And many have pointed out the interesting fact that a work consisting, allegedly, of nothing but the words of Shostakovich, has a single copyright holder who is not the composer or the composer's estate.   
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 30, 2016, 07:00:22 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 30, 2016, 09:32:22 AM
Nice to see the Dacha hopping. For the moment, I'll just add my appreciation for violadude's and Heck's thumbnail surveys.

+1
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 30, 2016, 07:03:10 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 30, 2016, 07:41:54 AM
Not to be morbid but reading this conversation between DSCH and Slava breaks your heart:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61dOL3hmNnL.jpg)

A very touching story indeed. I truly believe Shostakovich was a great man. Deeply indebted to all of the people who have made his music possible.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 02, 2016, 11:38:35 AM
Quote from: violadude on November 29, 2016, 01:49:23 AM
I've been reviewing my Shostakovich collection over the past month or so. I have all the symphonies and string quartets, the 24 Preludes and Fugues, The Piano Quintet, the Cello Sonata, the First Cello Concerto and some 2 Movements for String Quartet that came with the Emerson box set of quartets, I think it's a transcription of something. I was previously very familiar with the string quartets but not as much with the symphonies. I wanted to share my thoughts, for now, on the symphonies...then later the others.

Symphony #1: This symphony, I think, is quite brilliant considering the age at which Shostakovich wrote it. Many of his main signiture expressive qualities are already there, particularly the biting wit/sarcasm that appears in so many of his works. Humor can be a tough thing to express in music but Shostakovich seems to have it down from day one. I especially enjoy the sparse orchestration employed in the first movement, giving every instrument a little momentary spotlight. I also like some of the soloistic scoring for the string instruments, a particular moment at the end of the 3rd movement comes to mind. Speaking of the third movement, the main melody has a very mature, longing quality that, I think, is surprising coming from a 19 year old. Overall, not one of my favorites, but a very amazing first effort and a sign of things to come definitely.

Symphony #2: Contrary to popular opinion, I actually really like this symphony. Well...I mean, I really like the instrumental portion of the symphony. The choral section isn't too great, obviously, but even that part isn't THAT bad. I think it's better than the choral section of the 3rd. I love the amorphous opening and the way that it comes together at the end. Also, that quadrillion voice fugue in the middle of the fast section is really something else (okay, it's really more like 15 or so, but still...someone probably knows the exact number).

Symphony #3: I had a lot of trouble getting into this one. It's universally panned so I guess I don't feel too bad about it. There are some kinda cool individual moments but it seems to spend a lot of time going nowhere...even before the chorus comes in. And then after the chorus comes in..oh boy. I could barely feel where the music was going at some parts. Is this the climax? the end of a climax? The beginning of one? Is it a new phrase? It just seems to go on and on trying to build itself from nothing. Maybe that was the point...I don't know.

Symphony #4: One of my favorites. MAN what a juggernaut of a work. The labyrinth like 1st movement is incredible. It took me a while to figure out what was going on in the movement or what was related to what, but after like 20 listens or so I think I have a pretty good general idea. The intensity of expression in this first movement alone is enough to keep anyone on the edge of their seat. Feels like Shostakovich is really throwing himself head-first into the hands of modernism.I also love the very eerie second movement, which feels laid back and nervous at the same time, somehow. I haven't fully gotten my head around the last movement as much as the first two. Seems to me like it's an anthology of Shostakovichy dance numbers proceeded by a funeral march. I like when the funeral march theme comes back at the end of the movement though. That theme seems to have some sort of relationship to the main theme of the first movement, well they start nearly identically anyway.

Symphony #5: I'm probably the most familiar with this one, having played the entire thing when I was in my city's youth symphony orchestra. I like it, but it's not one of my favorites. The first movement is really good, the second movement is super fun. The third movement is my favorite and maybe one of the most beautiful heartbreaking things the composer ever wrote. I love the ending with the harp on harmonics and celesta in unison. The fourth movement really doesn't do much for me though. I don't really put much stalk into things like "secret codes" and whatnot, personally. I do kind of like just how labor-intensive that final cadence is though.

Symphony #6: I like this one pretty well. The galop final movement is really fun. But what I really like is how the first movement sounds like it's going to be a standard kind of slow movement, but suddenly the development section ends up being almost entirely dominated by these lonely solos over mysterious, eerie trills in the lower strings. After that whole middle section of the movement ends and we get back to "normal sounding" music (relatively) it almost feels like coming up for air after being under a blanket for a while.

Symphony #7: Had trouble getting into this one a little bit. I really like the second movement. I think I like the third movement pretty well. This is the only one though that I don't really have a clear idea of how I feel about it though, not yet anyway. Seems like a very mixed bag and sometimes goes on for too long (to me) for what it is.

Symphony #8: This is another favorite of mine. When people say Shostakovich is too depressing, this is one of the ones I immediately think of. This symphony is relentlessly horrifying and full of pain, a very harrowing work I would say. Even though it's my favorite I am surprisingly not able to think of much to say about it for right now (it's late, so that might be why). The 4th movement though is like an exact musical replica of a shadowy something, whether it be a thought or figure or whatever. It reeks of a very dark and dim place, especially once those creepy fluttertongue woodwinds come in.

Symphony #9: This is a really fun symphony, which I suppose is obvious to any one whose heard it. I think I chuckled out loud when I first heard the multiple "wrong entrances" of the trumpet second theme in the recap of the first movement. I don't think of this one as one of my favorites, but it's always a joy to listen to.

Symphony #10: Another favorite. The melodies of the first movement and, especially how they fit together feels like magic. At the climax of the movement it almost seems like everything is collapsing and coming together at the same time. The melodies in here are especially memorable to me. I really enjoy the crooked waltz feel of the 3rd movement and the goofy main theme of the 4th movement is great. It seems very unique to me. It goes by so fast and is still very lyrical...or something. (I really shouldn't have waited until 2 in the morning to type this).

Symphony #11: I like this one pretty well, especially the second movement, of course. It's not as satisfying to me on the whole though, even though it has some really great moments. I like the atmosphere of the first movement, but I think it slightly overstays its welcome and becomes rather repetitive. The 3rd movement is really good too. Not sure what to feel about that last movement though....sounds kind of forced to me and it leaves me a little wanting.

Symphony #12: Atrocious. The worst by far in my estimation. I only listened once and never came back to it. Unless another recording does it justice, it will probably stay that way, at least for a while.

Symphony #13: The last 3 symphonies are amazing, among the best imo. I love how earthy and Russiany the 13th sounds. The choir has great power even though it's used in unison almost throughout. The first movement just seems perfect to me. The pace at which the phrases build and recede is breathtaking. The second movement is just a blast. The 4th movement has some really imaginative scoring. I like the message of the 5th movement. The melody somehow reminds me of something in his 6th string quartet, but I don't know what.

Symphony #14: I'm kind of a sucker for these uncompromisingly bleak pieces of music. I just love it. Something about how dark it all is really connect with me. But besides that, what I find so fascinating about this movement is that even though it's written for the least diverse ensembles of any Shostakovich symphony, somehow the limitation of the forces his was using caused Shostakovich to dig deeper for whatever kind of color he could use for this symphony and, to me anyway, it ends up being, perhaps the most, imaginatively scored symphonies of them all. Every movement seems to have something special, the bleakness of the first, or the Spanish flavor of the second, the nervous, near schizophrenic jumping around of the 3rd, the emotional intensity of the 4th, the manic quality of the 5th, the laughing lady of the 6th, that brilliant col legno fugue of the 7th, the angry clusters that end the 8th, the soulful ray of hope in the 9th, then the 10th seems to wrap up the piece as a whole, with the little 11th movement being a weirdly cheerful little bow on top.

Symphony #15: This is a very special symphony, maybe his best when it all comes down to it. I don't really have the grasp on this symphony to write about it in detail like I wish I could, but something about the craft of every moment seems just perfect. And it seems to contain everything that Shostakovich was about, but not parsed out like in the rest of his symphonies, but molded into one, so that almost every point moment in this symphony seems like a perfect balance of every quality that was in his previous symphonies. I don't know, it's hard to explain. But it's a very stimulating symphony too. The outer movements especially have a lot going on, which I like. Shostakovich symphonies have always contained a lot of polyphony, but for a majority of his symphony movements I feel like you can hear the moments being carefully plodded out, whereas this one seems little more "balls to the wall". I guess it's almost like a perfect combination of youthful exuberance and mature craft. Maybe that's what makes this one sound so special. I don't know. I've rambled on way too much.

Some marginalia to your survey . . .

Symphony #2:  There is a lot to like in this 'un, indeed.  And even the final chorus – factoring in the fact that it was a commission, and that setting the text was sort of The Point, and that the whole project was the young composer sort of ticking certain boxes, so that he should be at musical liberty in some other scores . . . well, if I reflect on the chorus "Fie on Goodness!" in the musical Camelot, I do not think ill of Shostakovich's choral endings to the Second or Third.

Symphony #3:  It may be that I am just a pushover for an opening clarinet passage.  Certainly, this one-movement choral symphony is markedly different from the Second – and in that, it sets expectations for both the symphony and string quartet cycles: no two in succession are quite alike.  On the whole, I find myself enjoying the comparative calm, almost pastoral, character of the Third as compared with the Second.

Symphony #4:  45% of the time, this is my very favorite among the symphonies.

Symphony #5:  The key to enjoying the finale is to throw out the Lucky Volkov/MacDonald Decoder Ring.  I have not yet heard the Shostakovich piece which requires a sexed-up dissident subtext, in order to find the music satisfying.  Yes, I think that – even beyond the goofy "exegeses" in The New Shostakovich (novel-gazing in lieu of musical analysis) – the whole "secret agent music man" angle is an inartistic distraction.

Symphony #7:  Somewhat similarly, I was sold on the middle movements first.  Some sincere Shostakovich-lovers in our midst still have problems with the Leningrad, and I respect that, maybe they won't ever be able to come around.  But I was sold on the whole symphony even before going to Mechanics Hall in Worcester for a bone-shaking performance by the Mariinka under Gergiev's baton.

Symphony #10:  45% of the time, this is my very favorite among the symphonies.

Symphony #11:  I was a long time coming around on this one.  I do like it a lot, now;  I listen to it a little differently than to almost any of the other symphonies.

Symphony #12:  I agree that this is the weakest of the 15;  yet, I do enjoy it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on December 02, 2016, 03:19:22 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 02, 2016, 11:38:35 AM
Symphony #5:  The key to enjoying the finale is to throw out the Lucky Volkov/MacDonald Decoder Ring.  I have not yet heard the Shostakovich piece which requires a sexed-up dissident subtext, in order to find the music satisfying.  Yes, I think that – even beyond the goofy "exegeses" in The New Shostakovich (novel-gazing in lieu of musical analysis) – the whole "secret agent music man" angle is an inartistic distraction.

Oh golly, yes. The "Decoder Ring" is used ridiculously often with Shostakovich. More than any other composer, he is constantly subjected to analysis about his 'true' intentions. And while it's certainly true that some pieces, at least, were written within a particular context of his life, I wish there was a bit more listening to the actual music and that liner notes/articles would focus on that instead of extracting "meanings" from it, often quite contradictory to each other.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on December 02, 2016, 06:02:36 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 02, 2016, 11:38:35 AM
Some marginalia to your survey . . .

Symphony #2:  There is a lot to like in this 'un, indeed.  And even the final chorus – factoring in the fact that it was a commission, and that setting the text was sort of The Point, and that the whole project was the young composer sort of ticking certain boxes, so that he should be at musical liberty in some other scores . . . well, if I reflect on the chorus "Fie on Goodness!" in the musical Camelot, I do not think ill of Shostakovich's choral endings to the Second or Third.

Symphony #3:  It may be that I am just a pushover for an opening clarinet passage.  Certainly, this one-movement choral symphony is markedly different from the Second – and in that, it sets expectations for both the symphony and string quartet cycles: no two in succession are quite alike.  On the whole, I find myself enjoying the comparative calm, almost pastoral, character of the Third as compared with the Second.

Symphony #4:  45% of the time, this is my very favorite among the symphonies.

Symphony #5:  The key to enjoying the finale is to throw out the Lucky Volkov/MacDonald Decoder Ring.  I have not yet heard the Shostakovich piece which requires a sexed-up dissident subtext, in order to find the music satisfying.  Yes, I think that – even beyond the goofy "exegeses" in The New Shostakovich (novel-gazing in lieu of musical analysis) – the whole "secret agent music man" angle is an inartistic distraction.

Symphony #7:  Somewhat similarly, I was sold on the middle movements first.  Some sincere Shostakovich-lovers in our midst still have problems with the Leningrad, and I respect that, maybe they won't ever be able to come around.  But I was sold on the whole symphony even before going to Mechanics Hall in Worcester for a bone-shaking performance by the Mariinka under Gergiev's baton.

Symphony #10:  45% of the time, this is my very favorite among the symphonies.

Symphony #11:  I was a long time coming around on this one.  I do like it a lot, now;  I listen to it a little differently than to almost any of the other symphonies.

Symphony #12:  I agree that this is the weakest of the 15;  yet, I do enjoy it.


Some marginalia to your marginalia:

#7 — I have tried but cannot abide the first movement. The melody from Lehar representing the invasion of the sausage eaters is impossible for me to take seriously. Some very good music in the other movements.

#5 — Agree about the finale. In any case, is there really a difference between trying way too hard to please and sounding over the top and being sarcastic and sounding over the top? Could the composer himself even reliably distinguish the two states? 

#4 and #10 — I'd have to add in 8, 15, and 6 to list the ones that are at various times my favorite. But 10 is quite lean and traditional while 4 is a sprawling labyrinth.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 04, 2016, 12:02:11 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 02, 2016, 11:38:35 AM
Some marginalia to your survey . . .

Symphony #2:  There is a lot to like in this 'un, indeed.  And even the final chorus – factoring in the fact that it was a commission, and that setting the text was sort of The Point, and that the whole project was the young composer sort of ticking certain boxes, so that he should be at musical liberty in some other scores . . . well, if I reflect on the chorus "Fie on Goodness!" in the musical Camelot, I do not think ill of Shostakovich's choral endings to the Second or Third.

Symphony #3:  It may be that I am just a pushover for an opening clarinet passage.  Certainly, this one-movement choral symphony is markedly different from the Second – and in that, it sets expectations for both the symphony and string quartet cycles: no two in succession are quite alike.  On the whole, I find myself enjoying the comparative calm, almost pastoral, character of the Third as compared with the Second.

Symphony #4:  45% of the time, this is my very favorite among the symphonies.

Symphony #5:  The key to enjoying the finale is to throw out the Lucky Volkov/MacDonald Decoder Ring.  I have not yet heard the Shostakovich piece which requires a sexed-up dissident subtext, in order to find the music satisfying.  Yes, I think that – even beyond the goofy "exegeses" in The New Shostakovich (novel-gazing in lieu of musical analysis) – the whole "secret agent music man" angle is an inartistic distraction.

Symphony #7:  Somewhat similarly, I was sold on the middle movements first.  Some sincere Shostakovich-lovers in our midst still have problems with the Leningrad, and I respect that, maybe they won't ever be able to come around.  But I was sold on the whole symphony even before going to Mechanics Hall in Worcester for a bone-shaking performance by the Mariinka under Gergiev's baton.

Symphony #10:  45% of the time, this is my very favorite among the symphonies.

Symphony #11:  I was a long time coming around on this one.  I do like it a lot, now;  I listen to it a little differently than to almost any of the other symphonies.

Symphony #12:  I agree that this is the weakest of the 15;  yet, I do enjoy it.

You're so right in saying that the whole Shostakovich secret code thing is a bunch of bologna. I think if people would actually try and listen to the music instead of worrying themselves with some kind of subtext like Shostakovich could be killed at any minute or he composed music under such harsh circumstances, then it would allow them to hear more of the man in the music and less of the politics that they believe is in there. I'm not saying that Soviet politics didn't shape a lot of creative artists paths, but it didn't define them and only a brilliant composer like Shostakovich could find these new avenues for himself while still maintaining a high level of artistic integrity. Some 'lesser' Soviet composers weren't so lucky. Some of them (i.e. Kabalevsky, Gliere) even wound up selling their musical souls all in order to survive that stifling musical environment. I suppose I don't blame them, but Shostakovich's ingenuity was apparent in all the different phases in his musical life.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 05, 2016, 07:54:53 AM
Perhaps some more lighter questions for this thread: I would love to everyone's story of how they discovered Shostakovich's music? What was the first work you heard? What were your overall impressions of the music?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mahlerian on December 05, 2016, 10:18:03 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2016, 07:54:53 AM
Perhaps some more lighter questions for this thread: I would love to everyone's story of how they discovered Shostakovich's music? What was the first work you heard? What were your overall impressions of the music?

The first time I sought out and listened to Shostakovich's music was in college (though I had heard a few things before that), when I had discovered Mahler and began to search for other composers whose symphonies had similar weight and scope.  The first piece I tried was the Fifth, which I liked, though I found it hard to follow in places (because of not having had much exposure to post-common practice music at the time).  I gradually listened to all of the symphonies, followed by the quartets and the preludes and fugues, and the symphony that stuck with me the most then and now was the Fourth, which at first was completely impenetrable.

As for my first impressions, it's been a while since then, so I really don't remember all that well.  Like I said above I found the music to be somewhat difficult because of its harmony and the forms seemed vague and unclear (of course, I thought the same of Mahler around that time too).  I never did take to it as much as to Mahler (or, later on, to Schoenberg), in part because the music sometimes strikes me as thin and its harmony strangely forced.  He had a great facility for composing, a unique voice, and at their best his works can be quite powerful.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 05, 2016, 11:59:35 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on December 05, 2016, 10:18:03 AM
The first time I sought out and listened to Shostakovich's music was in college (though I had heard a few things before that), when I had discovered Mahler and began to search for other composers whose symphonies had similar weight and scope.  The first piece I tried was the Fifth, which I liked, though I found it hard to follow in places (because of not having had much exposure to post-common practice music at the time).  I gradually listened to all of the symphonies, followed by the quartets and the preludes and fugues, and the symphony that stuck with me the most then and now was the Fourth, which at first was completely impenetrable.

As for my first impressions, it's been a while since then, so I really don't remember all that well.  Like I said above I found the music to be somewhat difficult because of its harmony and the forms seemed vague and unclear (of course, I thought the same of Mahler around that time too).  I never did take to it as much as to Mahler (or, later on, to Schoenberg), in part because the music sometimes strikes me as thin and its harmony strangely forced.  He had a great facility for composing, a unique voice, and at their best his works can be quite powerful.

Thanks for sharing this, Mahlerian. I don't agree that Shostakovich's harmony is forced as it is perfect alignment with the direction of music in every work I've heard. There's nothing out-of-place. As for the music being 'thin' well that's the way it's supposed to sound. It's supposed to sound stark and in some ways he reminds me of Sibelius in this regard as in many of his song cycles like in Six Romances on Verses by British Poets, Op. 140 or Six Romances on texts by Japanese Poets, Op. 21, for example, where there's a sparse layer of accompaniment, but what is revealed in striking detail is what's lurking beneath those notes and how they relate to the texts. This is just a tiny example out of many of how Shostakovich's unique sound-world gave his music it's undeniable character.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 05, 2016, 12:11:31 PM
I suppose I should share my story of how I discovered Shostakovich (even though my story isn't an interesting one --- as most of my stories never are). About eight years ago, I was searching through some classical music on Amazon as this was when I started to develop an immense interest in the music and I ran across Shostakovich's name and the Bernard Haitink recording of Symphony No. 11. I forget which album I was looking at at that time, but a few Shostakovich recordings were in the "Customers Who Viewed This Item Also Viewed" section of the product page and those Haitink recordings looked interesting. So I check out the 11th and listened to some sound samples. Even though I didn't have any kind of understanding of classical music at that time, the music was so fascinating to me. It was rather heavy and dark. There was also a level of eeriness that attracted me. That's pretty much it. It did take me some time to come back around to Shostakovich as I was listening to a lot of Ives and Bartok at the time, but also some Ravel and Stravinsky.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on December 05, 2016, 01:02:39 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on December 05, 2016, 10:18:03 AMthe music sometimes strikes me as thin and its harmony strangely forced.
He does turn this into an asset in the late works though, especially Symphony No. 14.

The first Shostakovich works I knowingly heard were the Symphonies Nos. 4 and 10, because they were on the same 2-CD set. I found them loud and bombastic and somewhat directionless, but enjoyed No. 4 somewhat more due to its sheer wildness and the amount of stuff going on. (I was pretty young at the time and had a short attention span.) I remember particularly enjoying the very beginning, that manic string fugue in the middle of the first movement, most of the second movement, and the very end of the piece. I didn't connect with No. 10 at all and still don't.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Heck148 on December 05, 2016, 02:44:52 PM
My first contact with Shostakovich was his Symphony #1....my Grandparents had a 78 set, Ormandy/Phila ....of cours,e at that time, his Anglicized name was spelled <<Szostakowice> or something like that..
In high school - I got to play excerpts from Sym #5 - mvt II, and mvt IV....these were great fun to play.

As a freshman at conservatory I got to play solo bassoon on Sym #9, which of course has a major solo - virtually the entire 4th mvt is bassoon solo. Walter Hendl was conducting, a great conductor, but, as Reiner's clone, he was a nasty, domineering prick, a real sob....for a young musician-wannabe, this was a "do-or-die" moment...would I be able to produce, to take the pressure of this really heavyweight, tyrannical conductor, and perform decently...is it something I really wanted to do??
anyway - the concert went splendidly, and I received fine compliments from the Maestro himself, and I had proved to myself that I had "The Right Stuff".  8) 0:)
I don't think I've ever been as scared as I was for the first rehearsal with Hendl on the podium, and me in the hot-seat....in retrospect, I loved playing for Walter Hendl - he was a great conductor, knew just what he wanted, how to get it, how to fix things; at one time, late 40s, he was actually ahead of Bernstein on the up-and-coming list of young American conductors [both were Reiner students]. Every concert had the potential to be fantastic, really cosmic.....but, gawd, the rehearsals were tough!! scary....getting thru totally unnoticed was a great success!! At least at the concert, he couldn't stop, and rip you to pieces for screwing up... ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on December 05, 2016, 02:49:13 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2016, 07:54:53 AM
Perhaps some more lighter questions for this thread: I would love to everyone's story of how they discovered Shostakovich's music? What was the first work you heard? What were your overall impressions of the music?
My brother, who is seven years older than me, had an LP of Ormandy conducting Shostakovich Symphony 10 which I liked when I was a teenager. Then when I was 18 and working on a farm in Zeeland in the Netherlands between school and university I picked up a copy of Symphony 5, possibly Kondrashin conducting but can't be sure. A friend of mine at college, who was not really a classical music fan had an LP of symphony 11 (Kondrashin) which he had bought as the opening was used as thematic material for a play on the radio and he was really gripped by the music and wrote in to the BBC to find out what it was - no internet then.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 05, 2016, 02:55:59 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 05, 2016, 02:49:13 PM
My brother, who is seven years older than me, had an LP of Ormandy conducting Shostakovich Symphony 10 which I liked when I was a teenager. Then when I was 18 and working on a farm in Zeeland in the Netherlands between school and university I picked up a copy of Symphony 5, possibly Kondrashin conducting but can't be sure. A friend of mine at college, who was not really a classical music fan had an LP of symphony 11 (Kondrashin) which he had bought as the opening was used as thematic material for a play on the radio and he was really gripped by the music and wrote in to the BBC to find out what it was - no internet then.

Very cool story, Jeffrey, Heck148, and amw you are forgiven for not enjoying the 10th as, in addition, I have forgiven Sarge for the continued error of his ways. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on December 05, 2016, 02:58:34 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2016, 07:54:53 AM
Perhaps some more lighter questions for this thread: I would love to everyone's story of how they discovered Shostakovich's music? What was the first work you heard? What were your overall impressions of the music?

I wish I could remember! I think it was either the Tenth Symphony or the First Cello Concerto. I thought these works were great the first time I heard them but it's all vague. Now about Schnittke I could give a more precise answer..
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on December 05, 2016, 11:08:36 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2016, 07:54:53 AM
Perhaps some more lighter questions for this thread: I would love to everyone's story of how they discovered Shostakovich's music? What was the first work you heard? What were your overall impressions of the music?

As far as I know, my discovery consisted of learning to play the Prelude & Fugue in E minor, op.87/4.

And then half-learning some others (no.12 is spectacularly hard) / listening to Nikolayeva's Hyperion recording of all 24 preludes and fugues.

I'm fairly sure my teacher pulled the music out rather than any specific desire on my part to learn Shostakovich. Being a prelude & fugue might well have had something to do with it, that's naturally my kind of music. I'm good at playing "intellectual" things of that kind.

It's possible I had heard something before that, but that was certainly the first piece I knew properly.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 06, 2016, 07:14:52 PM
Thanks for your feedback, Basil and orfeo! 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on December 08, 2016, 05:22:55 AM
I just had some sort of epiphany with the Eighth Symphony. It was always one of my favorites but it suddenly came together last night in a way it hadn't before. It happened in the finale when I realized how well the thematic returns from the first movement tied everything together and how perfectly apt was the transformation their intervention wrought on the finale's material. But the effect I think is more due to having a better understanding and mental image of the sprawling first movement. I think the Eighth is my favorite now. Strange how after hearing something so many times, something indefinable finally clicks.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 08, 2016, 05:39:19 AM
Sweet.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on December 08, 2016, 06:25:05 AM
Quote from: BasilValentine on December 08, 2016, 05:22:55 AM
I just had some sort of epiphany with the Eighth Symphony. It was always one of my favorites but it suddenly came together last night in a way it hadn't before. It happened in the finale when I realized how well the thematic returns from the first movement tied everything together and how perfectly apt was the transformation their intervention wrought on the finale's material. But the effect I think is more due to having a better understanding and mental image of the sprawling first movement. I think the Eighth is my favorite now. Strange how after hearing something so many times, something indefinable finally clicks.

Maybe its been too long since I've heard this work, but can you remind me what is the moment in the last movement where the thematic material from the first movement returns?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 08, 2016, 06:37:14 AM
Quote from: relm1 on December 08, 2016, 06:25:05 AM
Maybe its been too long since I've heard this work, but can you remind me what is the moment in the last movement where the thematic material from the first movement returns?

It has been too long!  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 08, 2016, 06:47:05 AM
Quote from: BasilValentine on December 08, 2016, 05:22:55 AM
I just had some sort of epiphany with the Eighth Symphony. It was always one of my favorites but it suddenly came together last night in a way it hadn't before. It happened in the finale when I realized how well the thematic returns from the first movement tied everything together and how perfectly apt was the transformation their intervention wrought on the finale's material. But the effect I think is more due to having a better understanding and mental image of the sprawling first movement. I think the Eighth is my favorite now. Strange how after hearing something so many times, something indefinable finally clicks.

Very good to hear. The 8th has been a long-time favorite of mine. How many performances do you think you own of it? Supposedly, or, at least, according to the reviewer on All Music Guide, a recent version I bought with Vladimir Fedoseyev is supposed to be the most brutal version on record. Can't wait to hear it.

The recording in question:

(https://img1.doubanio.com/lpic/s4458959.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mahlerian on December 08, 2016, 08:52:54 AM
Quote from: relm1 on December 08, 2016, 06:25:05 AM
Maybe its been too long since I've heard this work, but can you remind me what is the moment in the last movement where the thematic material from the first movement returns?

He's probably referring to the return of the violent climax of the first movement (the explosion preceding the long English horn solo), which brings with it a number of motifs from the first movement, and also the way the finale is based on an inversion of the opening major second motif.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pat B on December 08, 2016, 12:01:59 PM
Symphony 5 (Svetlanov 1970?, released on Warner)

[asin]B001DETD9G[/asin]

I have only listened once but wanted to go ahead and post some thoughts.

It's characteristically energetic, with contrasts emphasized, but what I really noticed was that this is a musical Fifth, not an imposingly political one. The entrance of the piano midway through the first movement, joined by what sounds like slap-bass, sounds jazzy. The scherzo sounds alternately Viennese and Spanish more than Soviet.

Apropos the discussion from July, the coda is taken moderately, somewhat contrasting the hectic start of the finale, but the ritardando in the last measures is milder than usual. The effect of the coda is of ambiguity, where many performances seem to push either a literal-rejoicing or forced-rejoicing narrative. I think I prefer it this way.

Sound is tubby but not bad by 1970s Soviet standards. Provenance is a bit of a mystery: unlike most Russian recordings from that era, it is apparently not a Melodiya or State Radio recording. Publishing and copyright credits are to "Svetlanova." Did Svetlanov have his own recording crew? The insert indicates it's live, but if so, the audience is much quieter than for the coupled 1st.

It's obviously not for those who want the angst played up, but for me, this could become a favorite. At the very least it has helped me understand the piece better.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on December 08, 2016, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on December 08, 2016, 08:52:54 AM
He's probably referring to the return of the violent climax of the first movement (the explosion preceding the long English horn solo), which brings with it a number of motifs from the first movement, and also the way the finale is based on an inversion of the opening major second motif.

Yes, that is precisely what I had in mind. Stated more simply, the loud part!

The inversion relationship is central to the overall design. The counterpoint and fugal writing in the finale, especially that for winds, is wonderful.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mahlerian on December 08, 2016, 01:00:56 PM
Quote from: BasilValentine on December 08, 2016, 12:37:29 PM
Yes, that is precisely what I had in mind. Stated more simply, the loud part!

The inversion relationship is central to the overall design. The counterpoint and fugal writing in the finale, especially that for winds, is wonderful.

You might be pleasantly surprised to find I agree.  That finale is a fascinating movement.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on December 08, 2016, 01:33:43 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 08, 2016, 06:47:05 AM
Very good to hear. The 8th has been a long-time favorite of mine. How many performances do you think you own of it? Supposedly, or, at least, according to the reviewer on All Music Guide, a recent version I bought with Vladimir Fedoseyev is supposed to be the most brutal version on record. Can't wait to hear it.

The recording in question:

(https://img1.doubanio.com/lpic/s4458959.jpg)
That's a great version John. My favourite is Previn's EMI recording with the LSO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on December 08, 2016, 04:29:11 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on December 08, 2016, 08:52:54 AM
He's probably referring to the return of the violent climax of the first movement (the explosion preceding the long English horn solo), which brings with it a number of motifs from the first movement, and also the way the finale is based on an inversion of the opening major second motif.

Ahh, ok.  I am listening to it now with Solit/CSO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Heck148 on December 08, 2016, 06:47:30 PM
Quote from: relm1 on December 08, 2016, 04:29:11 PM
Ahh, ok.  I am listening to it now with Solit/CSO.

That's a great recording. I heard them play it live in Boston Symphony Hall - amazing, even better than the recording, IIRC...
The audience went totally nuts...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 08, 2016, 06:54:42 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 08, 2016, 01:33:43 PM
That's a great version John. My favourite is Previn's EMI recording with the LSO.

Good to hear, Jeffrey. I was really blown away by Rozhdestvensky's, but Haitink has been a long-standing favorite.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2016, 04:43:25 AM
Aye, Haitink's was the first Op.65 I heard, and I still give it that sentimental edge.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 09, 2016, 05:00:31 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 09, 2016, 04:43:25 AM
Aye, Haitink's was the first Op.65 I heard, and I still give it that sentimental edge.

Yes, indeed, but when revisiting Haitink's (not too long ago), it still holds up rather well IMHO. Quite intense.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 11, 2016, 11:35:27 AM
Quote from: Pat B on December 08, 2016, 12:01:59 PM
Symphony 5 (Svetlanov 1970?, released on Warner)

[asin]B001DETD9G[/asin]

I have only listened once but wanted to go ahead and post some thoughts.

It's characteristically energetic, with contrasts emphasized, but what I really noticed was that this is a musical Fifth, not an imposingly political one. The entrance of the piano midway through the first movement, joined by what sounds like slap-bass, sounds jazzy. The scherzo sounds alternately Viennese and Spanish more than Soviet.

Apropos the discussion from July, the coda is taken moderately, somewhat contrasting the hectic start of the finale, but the ritardando in the last measures is milder than usual. The effect of the coda is of ambiguity, where many performances seem to push either a literal-rejoicing or forced-rejoicing narrative. I think I prefer it this way.

Sound is tubby but not bad by 1970s Soviet standards. Provenance is a bit of a mystery: unlike most Russian recordings from that era, it is apparently not a Melodiya or State Radio recording. Publishing and copyright credits are to "Svetlanova." Did Svetlanov have his own recording crew? The insert indicates it's live, but if so, the audience is much quieter than for the coupled 1st.

It's obviously not for those who want the angst played up, but for me, this could become a favorite. At the very least it has helped me understand the piece better.

The best I can remember, I enjoyed this performance as well. I should revisit it although Bernstein's Live in Japan performance still haunts me.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2016, 11:48:03 AM
If you like Shostakovich you'll almost certainly like this (2003):
Mikhel Kerem: Symphony 3 'For the Victims of Communism':
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kerem-Symphony-Murdvee-Toccata-Classics/dp/B00C30Z9TC/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1481748703&sr=1-1&keywords=Kerem

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 21, 2016, 08:29:35 AM
Shostakovich's own voice is most clearly audible in his fifteen string quartets.

On one hand, I want in part to endorse the sentiment behind this.  On the other, we can all agree that there is presumption in this statement, right?

So whereas the symphonies can be bombastic or overblown or afflicted with moments of bad faith, the quartets are amazingly pure and consistently appealing.

All right, it's an opinion, and everyone's entitled.  But:  "afflicted with moments of bad faith"?

"afflicted with moments of bad faith"?

I don't suppose I can answer this, until those moments are identified for us.

Oh? The author doesn't bother to?

I see.

As to "bombastic or overblown" . . . a large orchestra is a bigger voice than a string quartet.  There is nothing wrong with exulting in the intimacy of a string quartet (and, of course, there are four dozen passages of musical intimacy within the symphonies, as we all know), and nobody is obliged to like all the symphonies, but if we choose less dismissive adjectives to describe them, maybe even the moments of bombast are, gasp, artful.  Let's say we prefer the sonnets as Shakespeare's own voice, and say how much we prefer them to Macbeth, because it's so . . . stagey.

Nothing wrong with admiring the quartets, to be clear.  The snobbish "they're so much better than those beastly symphonies" is, by now, rather more tiresome and tin-eared than anything one might object to in the symphonies.


Call it my opinion.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on December 21, 2016, 09:10:45 AM
Although I think some of the symphonies are truly great (4, 6, 8, 10, 15 at least), for me too the quartets are the center of Shostakovich's work. As for "bad faith" I would just take out the word "faith" and point to the whole 12th Symphony and the first movement of the 7th.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 21, 2016, 09:58:09 AM
Quote from: BasilValentine on December 21, 2016, 09:10:45 AM
Although I think some of the symphonies are truly great (4, 6, 8, 10, 15 at least), for me too the quartets are the center of Shostakovich's work. As for "bad faith" I would just take out the word "faith" and point to the whole 12th Symphony and the first movement of the 7th.

Yah, but we disagree about the first movement of the Leningrad, certainly.  So it just becomes "lots of people don't like [this] much."

And what if the Op.87 are the real center of his work?

I think the Fourth Symphony is the center, and even the string quartets radiate forth from it   8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 21, 2016, 10:52:03 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on December 21, 2016, 10:40:01 AM
She suggests that Lady Macbeth and the 4th Symphony were the last freely composed large works, since for as long as Stalin was alive, and even after, Shostakovich was now under the scrutiny of the state.  But his chamber music could proceed virtually unseen.


A steady series of 15 string quartets, well regarded among fellow musicians, and which receive readings immediately, and public performances soon after, their completion . . . I don't think "virtually unseen" at all apt.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on December 21, 2016, 12:32:29 PM
IIRC Laurel Fay laid down a similar proposition in her biography of DSCH. In essence, the symphonies were written with the knowledge that they would need official approval and be publicly judged,  and at a certain stage DSCH simply refrained from writing them ( the hiatus between Nine and Ten, which happened to be the final years of Stalin's rule).  Other works, the VC1 most famously, he simply wrote and then kept out of public circulation.  The quartets, however, were more often expressions of personal emotion and written without direct regard for official reaction.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on December 21, 2016, 02:22:47 PM
There seems to be this strange, unstated assumption that Communist Party officials only ever heard orchestral works.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on December 21, 2016, 03:07:58 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on December 21, 2016, 02:22:47 PM
There seems to be this strange, unstated assumption that Communist Party officials only ever heard orchestral works.

Fay's version seems to depend on officialdom caring less about chamber music than large scale works.  As long as the composer supplied a suitable quota of film scores and celebratory concert works, they were satisfied.

Of course they did question some of the small scale works:Op. 87, for instance.

But the world premiere performance of more than one SQ was in the form of the Beethoven Quartet giving a read through in the composer's living room.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 21, 2016, 04:28:56 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on December 21, 2016, 11:19:37 AM
Well, it's a relative judgment: the amount of scrutiny devoted to large scale (i.e. for large forces performed in a large hall) a/o/t chamber works; but "virtually unseen" is my phrase, not hers.

Well, chalk it up to overstatement.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 21, 2016, 04:32:42 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 21, 2016, 12:32:29 PM
IIRC Laurel Fay laid down a similar proposition in her biography of DSCH. In essence, the symphonies were written with the knowledge that they would need official approval and be publicly judged,  and at a certain stage DSCH simply refrained from writing them ( the hiatus between Nine and Ten, which happened to be the final years of Stalin's rule).  Other works, the VC1 most famously, he simply wrote and then kept out of public circulation.  The quartets, however, were more often expressions of personal emotion and written without direct regard for official reaction.

Yes. Yet the composer endured some Composers Union censure for his "antisocial" Preludes &amp; Fugues, and there was the "doctors" reference in the From Jewish Poetry cycle.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2016, 06:30:38 PM
I wouldn't put that much weight on the SQs. Sure, there's 15 of them, sure, he wrote fantastically in the medium, but he did so many other things well. I'd wager his Cello Sonata, the Piano Quintet, or a work like Seven Romances on Poems by Alexander Blok are as important as the SQs, then there's all of those incredible symphonies, ballets, and concertante works he composed and not to mention song cycles, solo piano music, and operas. I think to put all the weight on one genre and one genre alone would be doing this incredible composer a disservice.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 22, 2016, 04:48:54 AM
To re-state one of my points, We needn't pay much attention to the symphonies, because we know that wasn't his genuine voice is some mix of presumption and snobbism.  Afflicted with moments of bad faith is nakedly tendentious assertion.  I'd love to discuss passages which are marked as such moments;  that would probably be interesting.

Of course, I feel really good about my powers of acumen, when I feel that I hear the composer's true voice in the string quartets.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 22, 2016, 06:55:38 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2016, 06:27:32 AM
I think the 12th is just good fun, but I also don't have a lot of the negative reactions a lot of members here seem to share. Is it any good? I think it's good, but certainly not one of Shostakovich's most inspired works, especially considering the symphonies that preceded it.

One of the first Shostakovich pieces I got to know was the band version of the Festive Overture, Op.96.  It never occurred to me then that I ought to have objected to the piece in any way:  it was a blast to play, engaging to take part in, and it easily found a place in the upper ranks of the band literature.

Nor have I ever since felt that I need to downgrade that musical opinion.  At this stage, I feel no motivation to question whether the piece is written "in the composer's genuine voice."  And as I have learnt since, he wrote it so quickly, that if he wrote it in musical insincerity, why, the putative insincerity was no artistic obstacle, then.

I admit that I was slow to give the Op.112 a break, myself.  Is it as emotionally immediate as the Op.47?  No.  Is it as monumentally dramatic as the Op.65?  No.  Does it have the poignant social relevance of the Op.113?  No.  And so what?

Quite possibly, he wrote the Op.112 in a needful rush which puts it on something of the same shelf as the Festive Overture.  And I think I made this connection subconsciously at first.  I'll agree that, in learning to like the Op.112, I had to give up the practice of pairing it off with other symphonies:  Op.112 or Op.43Op.43, obviously.

However.

The facile contrast between the symphony and string quartet cycles is in essence, that the quartets exhibit a more consistent application of artistic purpose.  And that's a perfectly fine observation, as it goes.

But why, again, must the symphony cycle hew to such an artistic purpose?  Well before the Twelfth, Shostakovich made free to pursue different goals with this or that symphony:  think the Third, Sixth, Seventh, & Ninth.  As I hear it, the Twelfth demonstrates artistic versatility and facility, without being (in the derogatory sense) facile.

Not everyone is going to agree;  but that is how I hear it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2016, 07:45:04 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 22, 2016, 06:55:38 AM
One of the first Shostakovich pieces I got to know was the band version of the Festive Overture, Op.96.  It never occurred to me then that I ought to have objected to the piece in any way:  it was a blast to play, engaging to take part in, and it easily found a place in the upper ranks of the band literature.

Nor have I ever since felt that I need to downgrade that musical opinion.  At this stage, I feel no motivation to question whether the piece is written "in the composer's genuine voice."  And as I have learnt since, he wrote it so quickly, that if he wrote it in musical insincerity, why, the putative insincerity was no artistic obstacle, then.

I admit that I was slow to give the Op.112 a break, myself.  Is it as emotionally immediate as the Op.47?  No.  Is it as monumentally dramatic as the Op.65?  No.  Does it have the poignant social relevance of the Op.113?  No.  And so what?

Quite possibly, he wrote the Op.112 in a needful rush which puts it on something of the same shelf as the Festive Overture.  And I think I made this connection subconsciously at first.  I'll agree that, in learning to like the Op.112, I had to give up the practice of pairing it off with other symphonies:  Op.112 or Op.43Op.43, obviously.

However.

The facile contrast between the symphony and string quartet cycles is in essence, that the quartets exhibit a more consistent application of artistic purpose.  And that's a perfectly fine observation, as it goes.

But why, again, must the symphony cycle hew to such an artistic purpose?  Well before the Twelfth, Shostakovich made free to pursue different goals with this or that symphony:  think the Third, Sixth, Seventh, & Ninth.  As I hear it, the Twelfth demonstrates artistic versatility and facility, without being (in the derogatory sense) facile.

Not everyone is going to agree;  but that is how I hear it.

Thanks for the feedback, Karl. I agree. I don't think it's wise to judge a composer of Shostakovich's immense talent solely on one genre. His compositional voice can be heard in a plethora of musical configurations. I really despise the snobbery of someone who believes that only the SQs are the keys to his musical persona and the only truth in his oeuvre. There are other avenues to explore and when a composer is on Shostakovich's level, it's always compelling to hear them in all of these musical settings.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on February 04, 2017, 03:46:04 PM
The Execution of Stepan Razin was the last piece I heard. Shostakovich doesn't dissapoint, I liked it a lot, it has a dark folk look that hooks me. Shostakovich had a great ability to create dramatic and bleak works, is one of his great characteristics and is a reason why I like his music so much.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on February 05, 2017, 11:11:20 AM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on February 04, 2017, 03:46:04 PM
The Execution of Stepan Razin was the last thing piece I heard. Shostakovich doesn't dissapoint, I liked it a lot, it has a dark folk look that hooks me. Shostakovich had a great ability to create dramatic and bleak works, is one of his great characteristics and is a reason why I like his music so much.
I agree and like that dramatic work very much.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on February 05, 2017, 11:05:35 PM
Am listening to the cycle by Maxim Shostakovich on Supraphon which I find to be excellent - I do not recall hearing a better version (performance and recording) of Symphony 1.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on February 06, 2017, 01:19:44 AM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on February 04, 2017, 03:46:04 PM
The Execution of Stepan Razin was the last thing piece I heard. Shostakovich doesn't dissapoint, I liked it a lot, it has a dark folk look that hooks me. Shostakovich had a great ability to create dramatic and bleak works, is one of his great characteristics and is a reason why I like his music so much.
Quote from: vandermolen on February 05, 2017, 11:11:20 AM
I agree and like that dramatic work very much.

Especially the bit where, in the silence after the axe has fallen, the fleas jump from the clothes of the poor people to the furs of the rich.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on February 06, 2017, 06:12:54 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 05, 2017, 11:05:35 PM
Am listening to the cycle by Maxim Shostakovich on Supraphon which I find to be excellent - I do not recall hearing a better version (performance and recording) of Symphony 1.

I quite like Maxim's Shostakovich cycle - very good conducting, not the greatest playing, but overall a very solid set.  I love his Colins LSO recordings very much too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 06, 2017, 07:10:22 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 05, 2017, 11:05:35 PM
Am listening to the cycle by Maxim Shostakovich on Supraphon which I find to be excellent

Quote from: relm1 on February 06, 2017, 06:12:54 AM
I quite like Maxim's Shostakovich cycle - very good conducting, not the greatest playing, but overall a very solid set.

(* ломать стол *)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on February 06, 2017, 07:42:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 05, 2017, 11:05:35 PM
Am listening to the cycle by Maxim Shostakovich on Supraphon which I find to be excellent - I do not recall hearing a better version (performance and recording) of Symphony 1.

Rozhdestvensky gets my vote as the best overall cycle. I was absolutely floored by what he did with this music. One of the greatest musical ears I've heard conduct Shostakovich.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on February 12, 2017, 06:44:10 AM
LP's - 1961 and 1965, respectively

(http://s1.postimg.org/pci0d1g0f/Janacek_QT.jpg)      (http://s23.postimg.org/7km4aq0mj/Weller_Qt.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on February 24, 2017, 09:06:05 AM
Really enjoying this very thoughtful, moving, beautifully recorded and powerful performance from 1962. Has a special quality to it.
L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande.
[asin]B000089AQI[/asin]
Super-fast finale. My wife just said 'it sounds like World War Two is going on in there.'  ::)
Unusual and interesting coupling (with the LSO).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 27, 2017, 10:49:01 AM
Anyone saw this stunning lecture on the life and music of Dmitri?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7-FqwhzI0g&t=5169s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7-FqwhzI0g&t=5169s)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 27, 2017, 07:01:30 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 27, 2017, 10:49:01 AM
Anyone saw this stunning lecture on the life and music of Dmitri?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7-FqwhzI0g&t=5169s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7-FqwhzI0g&t=5169s)

I really enjoyed it.  Thanks for posting.  But technically, Shosti lived in Stalingrad not Leningrad in 1941 since Stalingrad was the name of the town since 1925.  Minor detail but of important historical significance for a historical talk.  Great to see so many video clips of Shosti. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 27, 2017, 11:37:26 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 27, 2017, 07:01:30 PM
I really enjoyed it.  Thanks for posting.  But technically, Shosti lived in Stalingrad not Leningrad in 1941 since Stalingrad was the name of the town since 1925.  Minor detail but of important historical significance for a historical talk.  Great to see so many video clips of Shosti.

I haven't seen the documentary but think it was St Petersburg until 1914 - then changed to the less-German sounding 'Petrograd' in the First World War and then Leningrad after Lenin died in 1924 and then back to St Petersburg after the collapse of the USSR in 1991.

I think that Tsaritsyn became Stalingrad and then Volgograd - all very confusing!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 28, 2017, 02:35:02 AM


Quote from: vandermolen on March 27, 2017, 11:37:26 PM
I haven't seen the documentary but think it was St Petersburg until 1914 - then changed to the less-German sounding 'Petrograd' in the First World War and then Leningrad after Lenin died in 1924 and then back to St Petersburg after the collapse of the USSR in 1991.

Yes. Shostakovich's home town was never Stalingrad.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 28, 2017, 07:27:06 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 27, 2017, 07:01:30 PM
I really enjoyed it.  Thanks for posting.  But technically, Shosti lived in Stalingrad not Leningrad in 1941 since Stalingrad was the name of the town since 1925.  Minor detail but of important historical significance for a historical talk.  Great to see so many video clips of Shosti.
I didn't catch the St. Petersburg/Petrograd/Stalingrad/Leningrad inconsistencies but the video clips were invaluable. Highlights of the lecture include DSCH playing the piano on many occasions, his obvious nervousness at many public events, and of course the conducting of the finale of the 5th Symphony between Mravinsky and Bernstein.

There is another series devoted the String Quartets but I think they are less well presented. Maybe because Michael Parloff had to present the quartets in the order that the Jerusalem Quartet was playing them (not in numerical order) so the presentation did not really follow any timeline and is a bit more difficult to follow.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 28, 2017, 08:08:01 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 28, 2017, 07:27:06 AM
I didn't catch the St. Petersburg/Petrograd/Stalingrad/Leningrad inconsistencies

Stalingrad was an entirely different city, present-day Volgograd. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volgograd)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 29, 2017, 03:27:44 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 28, 2017, 08:08:01 AM
Stalingrad was an entirely different city, present-day Volgograd. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volgograd)
Thanks. I didn't know Stalingrad was Volgograd. Anyway poor guy...always one symphony away from a bullet in the head.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on April 01, 2017, 09:25:57 AM
Prominent Soviet and Russian poet Yevgeny Yevtushenko [writer of the poem Babi Yar] died in the US, aged 84, his wife and friends confirmed to the media.

Yevtushenko died of cardiac arrest in an American hospital, the poet's widow, Maria Novikova, told RIA Novosti. (https://www.rt.com/news/383088-legendary-poet-yevtushenko-dies/)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on April 02, 2017, 01:16:15 AM
Quote from: North Star on April 01, 2017, 09:25:57 AM
Prominent Soviet and Russian poet Yevgeny Yevtushenko [writer of the poem Babi Yar] died in the US, aged 84, his wife and friends confirmed to the media.

Yevtushenko died of cardiac arrest in an American hospital, the poet's widow, Maria Novikova, told RIA Novosti. (https://www.rt.com/news/383088-legendary-poet-yevtushenko-dies/)
Sad news - I have been listening to Symphony 13 'Babi-Yar' and hope to visit the site in Ukraine next month.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on April 03, 2017, 10:35:09 PM
New release:
[asin]B01IQHSWYO[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 04, 2017, 10:24:11 AM
I really enjoyed this version of Symphony 12. A rather deeper performance than many I know - the slow movement in particular and a very exciting finale. I've always thought that this symphony was rather underrated. I'm looking forward to hearing Symphony 11 '1905' in London on Wednesday night:
[asin]B000023Y5A[/asin]
It's on Amazon UK for under £2.00.

PS don't all reply at once!
8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 04, 2017, 10:40:34 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 04, 2017, 10:24:11 AM
I really enjoyed this version of Symphony 12. A rather deeper performance than many I know - the slow movement in particular and a very exciting finale. I've always thought that this symphony was rather underrated. I'm looking forward to hearing Symphony 11 '1905' in London on Wednesday night:
[asin]B000023Y5A[/asin]
It's on Amazon UK for under £2.00.

PS don't all reply at once!
8)

Not a favorite of mine from Shostakovich, but I do like Rozhdestvensky's performance of it. Easy on the bombast and tends to dig a bit more into the symphony's emotional core. Have you heard the Rozhdestvensky performance, Jeffrey?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 04, 2017, 10:43:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 03, 2017, 10:35:09 PM
New release:
[asin]B01IQHSWYO[/asin]

Of course, if someone already owns the Kondrashin set, it makes this release quite redundant or are these different performances then the ones in the Melodiya box?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 04, 2017, 12:30:16 PM
Thanks John. I don't think I have heard the Rozhdestvensky in No.12 although the Melodiya release gets some criticism on Amazon - not due to the performance but because of the engineering. I suspect that those Urania releases are the same as in the Kondrashin boxed set. No.4 is terrific IMHO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 04, 2017, 12:33:17 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 04, 2017, 12:30:16 PM
Thanks John. I don't think I have heard the Rozhdestvensky in No.12 although the Melodiya release gets dome criticism on Amazon - not due to the performance but because of the engineering. I suspect that those Urania releases are the same as in the Kondrashin boxed set. No.4 is terrific IMHO.

Actually, Jeffrey I have no complaints regarding the audio quality of the Rozhdestvensky set. It sounds fine to my ears. Granted it's not up to par with today's standards where everything is crystal clear, but the sound is perfectly acceptable and non-intrusive. If anything, the Kondrashin set has some of the harshest audio quality I've heard from any Shostakovich cycle, which, I suppose, is a lot of the reason as to why I can't quite enjoy the performances as much as Rozhdestvensky's or even Svetlanov's. I paid an arm and a leg for the Rozhdestvensky set, but it has become my gold standard to which so many other performances I've heard are measured. It's just that good I kid you not.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 04, 2017, 12:43:20 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 04, 2017, 12:33:17 PM
Actually, Jeffrey I have no complaints regarding the audio quality of the Rozhdestvensky set. It sounds fine to my ears. Granted it's not up to par with today's standards where everything is crystal clear, but the sound is perfectly acceptable and non-intrusive. If anything, the Kondrashin set has some of the harshest audio quality I've heard from any Shostakovich cycle, which, I suppose, is a lot of the reason as to why I can't quite enjoy the performances as much as Rozhdestvensky's or even Svetlanov's. I paid an arm and a leg for the Rozhdestvensky set, but it has become my gold standard to which so many other performances I've heard are measured. It's just that good I kid you not.
Thanks John. I rate Rozhdestvensky very much and greatly admire him for recording all the Vaughan Williams symphonies for Melodiya - a very surprising issue. I have a number of his Shostakovich recordings which I also admire.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 04, 2017, 01:14:23 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 04, 2017, 12:43:20 PM
Thanks John. I rate Rozhdestvensky very much and greatly admire him for recording all the Vaughan Williams symphonies for Melodiya - a very surprising issue. I have a number of his Shostakovich recordings which I also admire.

Excellent to hear, Jeffrey. I don't know what it is, but I'm still apprehensive about hearing a Russian with Russian forces perform Vaughan Williams. It's like I have a mental block up against it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 04, 2017, 03:16:18 PM
Jeffrey, it was actually the report of an old friend who heard the Eleventh live in San Diego, that overcame my hesitation toward that symphony.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 04, 2017, 03:19:48 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 04, 2017, 03:16:18 PM
Jeffrey, it was actually the report of an old friend who heard the Eleventh live in San Diego, that overcame my hesitation toward that symphony.

Or do you mean the 12th, Karl?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 04, 2017, 05:02:50 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 04, 2017, 03:19:48 PM
Or do you mean the 12th, Karl?

I understand the confusion, my hopping in late, John . . .

Quote from: vandermolen on September 04, 2017, 10:24:11 AM
I really enjoyed this version of Symphony 12. A rather deeper performance than many I know - the slow movement in particular and a very exciting finale. I've always thought that this symphony was rather underrated. I'm looking forward to hearing Symphony 11 '1905' in London on Wednesday night


But I did mean the Eleventh.  I listen to it with different expectations than I make of any of the other Shostakovich symphonies, but I do think it a fine piece.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 04, 2017, 05:09:55 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 04, 2017, 05:02:50 PM
I understand the confusion, my hopping in late, John . . .


But I did mean the Eleventh.  I listen to it with different expectations than I make of any of the other Shostakovich symphonies, but I do think it a fine piece.

Ah okay, Well, I can certainly say The Year 1905 is tremendous! The second movement, The Ninth of January, always terrifies me and leaves me trembling. Such nerve-wracking intensity.

Speaking of the 11th, even though I do have such a strong preference for Rozhdestvensky, I'll say that Haitink is probably my preferred performance of this symphony. I seem to go back and forth between Rozhdestvensky's and Haitink's cycles the most.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on September 05, 2017, 03:04:28 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 04, 2017, 05:09:55 PM
Ah okay, Well, I can certainly say The Year 1905 is tremendous! The second movement, The Ninth of January, always terrifies me and leaves me trembling. Such nerve-wracking intensity.

Based on its programme, it's probably having the desired effect then.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 05, 2017, 05:54:28 AM
Time to revisit the 11th, I've always considered Rostropovich with the NSO to be a desert island disc, there are moments that are absolutely terrifying, which I think was DSCH's intent.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 05, 2017, 06:02:53 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on September 05, 2017, 03:04:28 AM
Based on its programme, it's probably having the desired effect then.

Indeed!

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 05, 2017, 05:54:28 AMTime to revisit the 11th, I've always considered Rostropovich with the NSO to be a desert island disc, there are moments that are absolutely terrifying, which I think was DSCH's intent.

Have you heard Haitink's performance (w/ the Concertgebouw)?

(https://img.discogs.com/vg8Cy1jtcX2y9uhLAJ3m6LBMBoI=/fit-in/600x596/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2426531-1287177036.jpeg.jpg)

I haven't heard Rostropovich's 11th in ages. I remember good things about it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 05, 2017, 06:34:06 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 05, 2017, 06:02:53 AM
Indeed!

Have you heard Haitink's performance (w/ the Concertgebouw)?

(https://img.discogs.com/vg8Cy1jtcX2y9uhLAJ3m6LBMBoI=/fit-in/600x596/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2426531-1287177036.jpeg.jpg)

I haven't heard Rostropovich's 11th in ages. I remember good things about it.

I haven't heard the Haitink yet, but I'll search to see if it's streaming. Thanks, John!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 05, 2017, 07:00:25 AM
I'm very fond of the version conducted by Sir John Pritchard with the BBC SO on the old BBC Radio Classics label. I was at the concert on 12th April 1985 sitting in the cheap choir seats behind the percussion. It was like being in the orchestra. The epic conclusion to the symphony was terrific. I remember a percussionist virtually throwing himself into the gong! One of the great live musical experiences of my life.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 05, 2017, 07:02:51 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 05, 2017, 07:00:25 AM
I'm very fond of the version conducted by Sir John Pritchard with the BBC SO on the old BBC Radio Classics label. I was at the concert on 12th April 1985 sitting in the cheap choir seats behind the percussion. It was like being in the orchestra. The epic conclusion to the symphony was terrific. I remember a percussionist virtually throwing himself into the gong! One of the great live musical experiences of my life.

Nothing beats a great live performance! Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 05, 2017, 07:05:59 AM
My pleasure and of course I'll report back on tomorrow's live concert at the Proms in London when I can.
Incidentally that Pritchard recording is, to my amazement, available on the Amazon UK site, although from a U.S. seller at under £5.00. Otherwise it's absurdly expensive ($80 on the Amazon.com site).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 05, 2017, 07:08:11 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 05, 2017, 06:34:06 AM
I haven't heard the Haitink yet, but I'll search to see if it's streaming. Thanks, John!

You're welcome, Greg. This is one of the most intense performances I've ever heard from Haitink. I kid you not.

The Ninth of January movement delivered with terror from Haitink:

https://www.youtube.com/v/O_zIab4xGBA
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 05, 2017, 07:30:19 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 05, 2017, 07:08:11 AM
You're welcome, Greg. This is one of the most intense performances I've ever heard from Haitink. I kid you not.

The Ninth of January movement delivered with terror from Haitink:

https://www.youtube.com/v/O_zIab4xGBA
I recently bought the Haitink boxed set - so that is great news. His version of No.13 is my favourite and No.8 is excellent - I saw Haitink conduct it live decades ago - another great concert.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 05, 2017, 07:37:51 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 05, 2017, 07:30:19 AM
I recently bought the Haitink boxed set - so that is great news. His version of No.13 is my favourite and No.8 is excellent - I saw Haitink conduct it live decades ago - another great concert.

Excellent, Jeffrey. Haitink's set is my favorite from a non-Russian conductor. His Symphony No. 8 is one of the best on record IMHO. One thing I like about Haitink's Shostakovich are those quiet, introspective moments, which he handles with such scary conviction. Of course, I'm certainly not saying he doesn't rise to the occasion in the climaxes, because he certainly does. Only in the 5th, especially in the Largo movement do I feel a bit underwhelmed as the first climax timpani roll isn't as powerful as it should be, but that's one of the only complaints I have about this cycle.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on September 05, 2017, 11:48:27 AM
I also agree with you about the excellence of that cycle. The 4th, 8th, 11st, 13rd and 15th symphonies are top notch performances in these recordings imho.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 05, 2017, 12:17:35 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 05, 2017, 07:37:51 AM
Excellent, Jeffrey. Haitink's set is my favorite from a non-Russian conductor. His Symphony No. 8 is one of the best on record IMHO. One thing I like about Haitink's Shostakovich are those quiet, introspective moments, which he handles with such scary conviction. Of course, I'm certainly not saying he doesn't rise to the occasion in the climaxes, because he certainly does. Only in the 5th, especially in the Largo movement do I feel a bit underwhelmed as the first climax timpani roll isn't as powerful as it should be, but that's one of the only complaints I have about this cycle.
Very much agree with this analysis John.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 05, 2017, 12:20:06 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on September 05, 2017, 11:48:27 AM
I also agree with you about the excellence of that cycle. The 4th, 8th, 11st, 13rd and 15th symphonies are top notch performances in these recordings imho.
Right, I must listen to those ones. 13 is in a class of its own IMHO. As with Haitink's recording of Vaughan Willliams's 'A Sea Symphony' I have never been as moved by any other performance of the work.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on September 05, 2017, 04:21:10 PM
Haitink's LPO/RCO cycle is extremely highly recommended for the full set.  I think it is my favorite version overall.  On a case by case basis, he might not win any single recording.  For example, I think Bernstein's CSO No. 7 is the best it gets.  But Haitink is still very solid in this same work whereas Bernstein doesn't have many of the other symphonies.  Plus the sound of Haitink is superb.  I also really enjoy Maxim's deleted Collins series with the LSO but those are more operatic with sweeping rubato for example.  A measure of a great composer is how many different interpretations are still great and reveal something new.  But again, if you have money for only one complete cycle, my money is on Haitink decca.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 05, 2017, 05:35:03 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on September 05, 2017, 11:48:27 AM
I also agree with you about the excellence of that cycle. The 4th, 8th, 11st, 13rd and 15th symphonies are top notch performances in these recordings imho.

I haven't heard Haitink's 4th in ages. I'm sure it's a good one, though. Right now, I've got Rozhdestvensky's performance of the 4th imprinted in my mind. Absolutely visceral and in-your-face. I'm not sure if you've heard it or not, but I think you'll enjoy that performance.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 05, 2017, 06:57:26 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 05, 2017, 12:17:35 PM
Very much agree with this analysis John.

8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 05, 2017, 07:01:38 PM
Quote from: relm1 on September 05, 2017, 04:21:10 PM
Haitink's LPO/RCO cycle is extremely highly recommended for the full set.  I think it is my favorite version overall.  On a case by case basis, he might not win any single recording.  For example, I think Bernstein's CSO No. 7 is the best it gets.  But Haitink is still very solid in this same work whereas Bernstein doesn't have many of the other symphonies.  Plus the sound of Haitink is superb.  I also really enjoy Maxim's deleted Collins series with the LSO but those are more operatic with sweeping rubato for example.  A measure of a great composer is how many different interpretations are still great and reveal something new.  But again, if you have money for only one complete cycle, my money is on Haitink decca.

I'll always have a bit of sentimental attachment to Haitink's cycle because it was my first. Of course, even when I'm being objective and have my critical ear trying to find fault ---- Haitink's cycle still walks away as one of the best available IMHO. Agree with you about Bernstein's 7th with the CSO, but Rozhdestvensky is quite powerful and persuasive in the 7th as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on September 06, 2017, 02:10:48 AM
I came to Shostakovich via Ormandy and the 1st Symphony, which was the 'B side' for the premiere recording of the Cello Concerto back in the early '60s.  Then some years later, via Previn and the 5th Symphony, then various symphony releases from Melodiya, Svetlanov the 10th, Kondrashin the 8th and Stepan Razin, Rozhdestvensky the 6th and 9th I think.

For the 11th, I remind you of De Priest/Helsinki, my favourite version
[asin]B0000006X4[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 06, 2017, 02:46:50 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on September 06, 2017, 02:10:48 AM
I came to Shostakovich via Ormandy and the 1st Symphony, which was the 'B side' for the premiere recording of the Cello Concerto back in the early '60s.  Then some years later, via Previn and the 5th Symphony, then various symphony releases from Melodiya, Svetlanov the 10th, Kondrashin the 8th and Stepan Razin, Rozhdestvensky the 6th and 9th I think.

For the 11th, I remind you of De Priest/Helsinki, my favourite version
[asin]B0000006X4[/asin]
I have that De Priest version too and enjoy it greatly.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 06, 2017, 06:16:29 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on September 06, 2017, 02:10:48 AM
I came to Shostakovich via Ormandy and the 1st Symphony, which was the 'B side' for the premiere recording of the Cello Concerto back in the early '60s.  Then some years later, via Previn and the 5th Symphony, then various symphony releases from Melodiya, Svetlanov the 10th, Kondrashin the 8th and Stepan Razin, Rozhdestvensky the 6th and 9th I think.

For the 11th, I remind you of De Priest/Helsinki, my favourite version
[asin]B0000006X4[/asin]

DePreist is very good indeed in the 11th. He's also recorded several more symphonies: the 5th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 12th. He also recorded the 11th again with the Oregon Symphony. Outside of the 10th and 11th, I haven't heard any of these other performances.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 06, 2017, 03:32:33 PM
Just returned from hearing Symphony 11 live in London (LPO, Jurowski). I think I've seen this work at least twice in live concerts before and I'm sure that during the cataclysmic coda tubular bells are usually used. Jurowski had a row of actual bells on stage and they dominated the last few bars - it was an extraordinary effect - like Boris Godunov. At the end there is usually riotous applause but today the audience were, initially, stunned into complete silence! If you get the chance to hear this performance don't miss it.

I also heard a fine performance of Prokofiev's intensely lyrical First Violin Concerto and the newly discovered 'Funeral Song' by Stravinsky - written after he heard that his teacher Rimsky- Korsakov had died. It must be the most romantic music that Stravinsky wrote and it reminded me of 'The Enchanted Lake' by Lyadov. I also heard 'Russian Funeral' by Britten and Stravinsky's arrangement of 'The Song of the Volga Boatman' which I hadn't realised was the Russian National Anthem for the sadly short-lived Provisional Government of 1917.

A great concert and I enjoyed every work.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 06, 2017, 04:15:46 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 06, 2017, 03:32:33 PM
Just returned from hearing Symphony 11 live in London (LPO, Jurowski). I think I've seen this work at least twice in live concerts before and I'm sure that during the cataclysmic coda tubular bells are usually used. Jurowski had a row of actual bells on stage and they dominated the last few bars - it was an extraordinary effect - like Boris Godunov. At the end there is usually riotous applause but today the audience were, initially, stunned into complete silence! If you get the chance to hear this performance don't miss it.

I also heard a fine performance of Prokofiev's intensely lyrical First Violin Concerto and the newly discovered 'Funeral Song' by Stravinsky - written after he heard that his teacher Rimsky- Korsakov had died. It must be the most romantic music that Stravinsky wrote and it reminded me of 'The Enchanted Lake' by Lyadov. I also heard 'Russian Funeral' by Britten and Stravinsky's arrangement of 'The Song of the Volga Boatman' which I hadn't realised was the Russian National Anthem for the sadly short-lived Provisional Government of 1917.

A great concert and I enjoyed every work.

Excellent, Jeffrey!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on September 06, 2017, 04:20:39 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 06, 2017, 03:32:33 PM
Just returned from hearing Symphony 11 live in London (LPO, Jurowski). I think I've seen this work at least twice in live concerts before and I'm sure that during the cataclysmic coda tubular bells are usually used. Jurowski had a row of actual bells on stage and they dominated the last few bars - it was an extraordinary effect - like Boris Godunov. At the end there is usually riotous applause but today the audience were, initially, stunned into complete silence! If you get the chance to hear this performance don't miss it.

I also heard a fine performance of Prokofiev's intensely lyrical First Violin Concerto and the newly discovered 'Funeral Song' by Stravinsky - written after he heard that his teacher Rimsky- Korsakov had died. It must be the most romantic music that Stravinsky wrote and it reminded me of 'The Enchanted Lake' by Lyadov. I also heard 'Russian Funeral' by Britten and Stravinsky's arrangement of 'The Song of the Volga Boatman' which I hadn't realised was the Russian National Anthem for the sadly short-lived Provisional Government of 1917.

A great concert and I enjoyed every work.

Excellent! Attending such spectacular concert must have been an overwhelming experience. All of those works are quite good.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 06, 2017, 05:15:56 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 06, 2017, 03:32:33 PM
Just returned from hearing Symphony 11 live in London (LPO, Jurowski). I think I've seen this work at least twice in live concerts before and I'm sure that during the cataclysmic coda tubular bells are usually used. Jurowski had a row of actual bells on stage and they dominated the last few bars - it was an extraordinary effect - like Boris Godunov. At the end there is usually riotous applause but today the audience were, initially, stunned into complete silence! If you get the chance to hear this performance don't miss it.

I also heard a fine performance of Prokofiev's intensely lyrical First Violin Concerto and the newly discovered 'Funeral Song' by Stravinsky - written after he heard that his teacher Rimsky- Korsakov had died. It must be the most romantic music that Stravinsky wrote and it reminded me of 'The Enchanted Lake' by Lyadov. I also heard 'Russian Funeral' by Britten and Stravinsky's arrangement of 'The Song of the Volga Boatman' which I hadn't realised was the Russian National Anthem for the sadly short-lived Provisional Government of 1917.

A great concert and I enjoyed every work.

Great to hear, Jeffrey! I'm glad you enjoyed the concert, which I had no doubt you would --- Jurowski is an excellent conductor.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 06, 2017, 08:55:24 PM
Thank you John, Karl and Caesar - yes, it was a terrific concert. Keep having Shostakovich's 'The Year 1905' going round my head!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 07, 2017, 01:09:44 AM
"Honey, are those . . . Revolutionary jingles you've been humming to yourself all morning?"
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 07, 2017, 03:15:11 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 07, 2017, 01:09:44 AM
"Honey, are those . . . Revolutionary jingles you've been humming to yourself all morning?"
:) :) :)
Title: When did Shostakovich become THE Shostakovich?
Post by: relm1 on September 15, 2017, 04:46:06 PM
Question folks.  At what point did Shostakovich become the Shostakovich we know and love?  I am listening to this fine CD:
(http://16q3wx1btyoe13sjoj1bddcs.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/5186622_cover-1600x1600.jpg)
Mostly made up of early works.  And I hear that the early works are extremely impressive music but sound more like Tchaikovsky and the Russian national tradition than the Shostakovich we know.  Bear in mind this recording includes excellent works written when he was a teen.  But I find that Suite for Two Pianos, op. 6 which is not on this disc and composed when he was 16 is a mid period work.  We hear the Russian nationalism but also glimpses of the mature satirical/grand Shostakovich.  Is this the work where we hear his personal style emerge or is it somewhere else?  I believe there are many different Shostakovich's.  His youthful Symphony No. 1 is brilliant and extremely assured considering his age of 18 at the time of composition but that line of writing continued with the mature Piano Concerto NO. 2 and Symphony No. 9 and perhaps arguably the final No. 15 (it can be argued this is not a look back at his youth but rather a life retrospective including elements of youth and maturity).  Meanwhile there is the nationalistic Shosti which is No. 2, some of his Stalin/Soviet works, perhaps 11, 12 which are from the end of his middle period.  There is the classical Shosti with the preludes and fugues and scherzo, variations, etc, piano quintet, some of the string quartets, etc.  I think it is very clear from his Scherzo op. 1 that he was already well schooled in baroque technique and counterpoint by the time he was 13.  Then there is the experimental Shosti which is more like No. 3, No. 4, Orango, etc.  So we have multiple simultaneous versions of this great and complicated composer.   I think part of what makes this composer so amazing is these elements overlap in his best works. 

I really love this recording.  Half of it is music by Shostakovich (one of my top five favorite composers) that I have never heard before yet somehow find unique and familiar.  I was sad when it ended.  To me, other than the Symphony No. 1, this disc reveals new voices from one of my favorites.  All of the works are brilliant and vibrant and deepen my awe of this composer.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2017, 08:24:06 PM
There are many faces to Shostakovich. He was a complicated musical voice and an even more complicated person. I do feel, however, that his juvenilia works point more to other composers than to himself, but Symphony No. 1 in F minor, Op. 10 does demonstrate considerable talent and personal touches here and there. I'd say it was in a string of 1930s works like The Golden Age, Op. 22 (1930), Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District, Op. 29 (1932), the Piano Concerto No. 1 in C minor, Op. 35 (1933), the Cello Sonata in D minor, Op. 40 (1934), Symphony No. 4 in C minor, Op. 43 (1936), and the String Quartet No. 1 in C major, Op. 49 (1938) in which we hear the composer working in a mature idiom.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 15, 2017, 11:24:35 PM
Interesting discussion. I still have Symphony 11 going round my head from the terrific performance I heard in London recently. I don't know all those early works but for me Shostakovich becomes Shostakovich in the very exciting coda of Symphony 1. I got my brother to listen to the symphony recently and he said that he thought that the whole of Symphony 1 is 'typical Shostakovich'. So, from what I know, I'd go with Symphony No.1
Title: Re: When did Shostakovich become THE Shostakovich?
Post by: aukhawk on September 16, 2017, 11:38:05 PM
Quote from: relm1 on September 15, 2017, 04:46:06 PM
Question folks.  At what point did Shostakovich become the Shostakovich we know and love? 

The Shostakovich of the 1st Symphony is the Shostakovich I know and love!

For me his return to form after that was the Cello Sonata, which slightly pre-dated the 4th Symphony in terms of Op number.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 23, 2017, 05:05:50 PM
Symphony No. 11 in G minor, "The Year 1905", Op. 103

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/89/98/9c/89989c96c44502df446fa99c2616ab6b.jpg)

After the phenomenal international success of his Tenth Symphony (1953), Shostakovich's Eleventh, "The Year 1905" (1957)—a large-scale programmatic work timed to commemorate the fortieth anniversary of the October Revolution—struck many of his admirers as disappointingly provincial. The opening salvo of the first, abortive Russian Revolution, the massacre of workers in St. Petersburg's Palace Square on "Bloody Sunday" (January 9, 1905), forms the programmatic basis of the Symphony. Still, despite the expedience of its graphically realized program, the Eleventh transcends the level of propagandistic potboiler. The evils of tyranny and oppression with which the Symphony deals are a pervasive theme in the music of Shostakovich, one which he well knew is timeless and universal.

On the surface, Shostakovich's "1905" Symphony would appear to be similar in conception to both his Symphony No. 2, "Dedication to October" (1927), and Symphony No. 3, "The First of May" (1929). Unlike both of these one-movement works, however, Shostakovich rejects the use of the chorus and explicit poetic texts in his later Symphony. The Eleventh is comprised of four movements, each with a descriptive subtitle, although the movements are unified thematically and are performed without a pause. The first movement, "The Palace Square," sets the stage for the action to follow. Its uneasy tranquility is shattered by the second, "The Ninth of January." Here, the mounting suspense becomes almost unbearable, making the advent of the massacre itself all the more dramatic. The last two movements represent two very different reactions to the carnage that has taken place. "Eternal Memory" focuses on the grief and sorrow; and in the final movement, "Alarm," the forces of fury and confrontation are released.

To help convey the emotional intensity of the historical moment, Shostakovich relies on direct, if sometimes fleeting quotations from a number of popular revolutionary songs. The songs—including the funeral march "You Fell a Victim"; the battle march "Boldly, Comrades, Keep Step!"; the song of student protest "Rage, Tyrants!"; and the Polish revolutionary song "Varshavianka"—are among the most famous of the revolutionary legacy. All had their origins in the nineteenth century and all were already widely disseminated by 1905. Likewise, all have long been enshrined in the realm of musical folklore. For the Russian listener, even a snatch of one of these tunes carries a subtext of symbolic and concrete imagery, much as fragments of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" or "We Shall Overcome" might communicate to an American audience. In addition to the quotations from revolutionary songs, Shostakovich makes extensive use of two motifs from one of his own earlier compositions, "The Ninth of January," (No. 6 of Ten Poems on Texts by Revolutionary Poets of the Late Nineteenth and Early Twentieth Centuries, Op. 88), a song for unaccompanied chorus that treats the events of Bloody Sunday explicitly. Each of those two motifs is striking and distinctive. Indeed, the musical identity of all the borrowed material is so strong that Shostakovich is able to treat it with great flexibility, developing its symphonic potential and exploring the melodic and rhythmic interconnections. Underlying the explication of the extramusical program is a highly sophisticated and integrated musical structure. While the basic building-blocks of the Symphony may be less familiar to the non-Russian listener than to the native, Shostakovich succeeds in crafting those blocks into a vivid and compelling drama that communicates, as only music can, across national boundaries.

[Article taken from the American Symphony Orchestra website]

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This is a symphony that has grown on me over the years. I'm not quite sure how I felt about when I first heard it, but I do recall somewhat enjoying it. Of course, I love it now. I think The Ninth of January movement is one of Shostakovich's most turbulent and, quite frankly, astounding orchestral utterances. The way this particular movement builds up and gathers steam and then becomes more introspective only for the silence to be shattered is just awesome. One of my favorite moments in all of Shostakovich's orchestral music is when that military march comes crashing through as if he let the hammer down. Absolutely brilliant.

What do you guys think of the work? Any favorite performances?

I really enjoy the following performances a lot:

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0624/6833/products/index_646a2001-ca1e-49ce-b9bd-5f67c22f44a0_1024x1024.jpeg?v=1415354503)

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/029/MI0001029822.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/024/MI0001024239.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on September 23, 2017, 08:45:08 PM
Certainly, the 11st is a complete beast (in the best sense of the word). I consider it like my second favorite of Dmitry. The cinematographic thing here is overwhelming, just like those dolorous, pensive and quiet moments. All this makes an impressive contrast throughout the work. I've always been a fan of Haitink's recording: absolutely ravishing. So far, I haven't explored more recordings.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 23, 2017, 08:51:35 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on September 23, 2017, 08:45:08 PMCertainly, the 11st is a complete beast (in the best sense of the word). I consider it like my second favorite of Dmitry. The cinematographic thing here is overwhelming, just like those dolorous, pensive and quiet moments. All this makes an impressive contrast throughout the work. I've always been a fan of Haitink's recording: absolutely ravishing. So far, I haven't explored more recordings.

Completely agreed. It's something else. Glad to hear you enjoy it as much as I do.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on September 23, 2017, 09:07:53 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 23, 2017, 08:51:35 PM
Completely agreed. It's something else. Glad to hear you enjoy it as much as I do.

Of course. I sometimes use the stereo to play it at high volume  ;D Which recording do you like the most?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 23, 2017, 09:18:51 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on September 23, 2017, 09:07:53 PM
Of course. I sometimes use the stereo to play it at high volume  ;D Which recording do you like the most?

I'd have a difficult time picking an absolute favorite, but Haitink, Rozhdestvensky, and Rostropovich (LPO) are certainly strong contenders for the top spot for me.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 24, 2017, 01:11:47 AM
Interesting analysis John.
I was so overwhelmed by Jurowski's performance in London a few weeks ago that I have also been revisiting this fine score. I think that it is incomparably more interesting that symphonies 2 or 3. Above all, I have been looking for a great performance and modern recording. Along with the rest of the audience I was shocked into silence by those bells at the end of the work and I was looking for a recording which, to some extent, replicated the experience although the experience of listening to a CD is never the same as actually being there. My friend who accompanied me to the concert said that he had read that it was possibly the outstanding concert of this year's prom season. I was lucky as I only attended two concerts.
Anyway here are two great new discoveries for me:
[asin]B00240YUG4[/asin]
[asin]B000BJERAO[/asin]
The bells at the end of the Caetani have to be heard to be believed!
Kitajenko is terrific as well.
As to older recordings - Kondrashin is very special - my first encounter with the work.
Sir John Pritchard with the BBC SO (BBC Radio Classics) is excellent, recorded at another concert I attended in 1985.
More recently I liked the Lazarev RSNO version. Clutyens and Berglund are good and I think that the Haitink cycle is currently the best one available and very good value.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 24, 2017, 06:26:07 AM
Thanks for the reply, Jeffrey. I can only imagine what kind of experience you had at the BBC Proms witnessing this masterwork being performed by a conductor and orchestra that know the music so well (Jurowski is such a good conductor).

I do own both the Kitajenko and Caetani cycles, but I haven't heard performances from either of them in years. I should probably dig them out at some point. I do admire Kondrashin a lot, but the harsh audio quality makes it less enjoyable for me. I almost bought Lazarev's recording of the 11th last night, but I backed out at the last minute. Berglund's Shostakovich on EMI is quite underrated I think. He has done some good work in general and really admire his conducting.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 24, 2017, 06:37:51 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 24, 2017, 06:26:07 AM
Thanks for the reply, Jeffrey. I can only imagine what kind of experience you had at the BBC Proms witnessing this masterwork being performed by a conductor and orchestra that know the music so well (Jurowski is such a good conductor).

I do own both the Kitajenko and Caetani cycles, but I haven't heard performances from either of them in years. I should probably dig them out at some point. I do admire Kondrashin a lot, but the harsh audio quality makes it less enjoyable for me. I almost bought Lazarev's recording of the 11th last night, but I backed out at the last minute. Berglund's Shostakovich on EMI is quite underrated I think. He has done some good work in general and really admire his conducting.
I think that Berglund is generally underrated. His Vaughan Williams Symphony 6 is one of the few really successful recordings IMHO. I generally like his Shostakovich, Bliss and Sibelius recordings. I think that I first came across the Shostakovich Symphony 11 when I bought a Melodiya LP of the Kondrashin performance whilst at an Anglo-Soviet exhibition held in Earl's Court in my youth. That performance also emerged on one of those fine old EMI/Melodiya LPs with striking cover art.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 24, 2017, 07:04:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 24, 2017, 06:37:51 AM
I think that Berglund is generally underrated. His Vaughan Williams Symphony 6 is one of the few really successful recordings IMHO. I generally like his Shostakovich, Bliss and Sibelius recordings. I think that I first came across the Shostakovich Symphony 11 when I bought a Melodiya LP of the Kondrashin performance whilst at an Anglo-Soviet exhibition held in Earl's Court in my youth. That performance also emerged on one of those fine old EMI/Melodiya LPs with striking cover art.

Kondrashin certainly has the fiery spirit in Shostakovich, which I admire. Interestingly enough, I was happy to have discovered Kondrashin's performances of Shostakovich on the Profil label in much, much better audio than his Soviet counterparts:

[asin]B000FGGKLC[/asin]

[asin]B000QCTFQC[/asin]

Do you know these recordings, Jeffrey?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on September 24, 2017, 07:22:53 AM
Today I am going to hear No. 12 in concert.  Any fans of that Symphony?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 24, 2017, 07:33:24 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 24, 2017, 07:22:53 AM
Today I am going to hear No. 12 in concert.  Any fans of that Symphony?

It's not a favorite, but as a visceral music experience alone, it's quite something.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 24, 2017, 09:56:19 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 24, 2017, 07:22:53 AM
Today I am going to hear No. 12 in concert.  Any fans of that Symphony?
Yes, I've always liked that work and was sorry to miss a rare chance to hear it live in London at the Proms this year. It is sometimes used to accompany Eisenstein's film about the 1917 Revolution which gives it an added appeal to me as I am very interested in that period in history. Obviously it's a programme work but I still enjoy it.
Enjoy the concert!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 24, 2017, 09:59:38 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 24, 2017, 07:04:50 AM
Kondrashin certainly has the fiery spirit in Shostakovich, which I admire. Interestingly enough, I was happy to have discovered Kondrashin's performances of Shostakovich on the Profil label in much, much better audio than his Soviet counterparts:

[asin]B000FGGKLC[/asin]

[asin]B000QCTFQC[/asin]

Do you know these recordings, Jeffrey?
I have the Symphony 4 John and, like you, was delighted to find a more recent Kondrashin recording. It was much the same when I discovered that there was also a more recent recording of Kondrashin conducting Miaskovsky's 6th Symphony - one of my favourite pieces of music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on September 24, 2017, 12:20:30 PM
Quote from: relm1 on September 24, 2017, 07:22:53 AM
Today I am going to hear No. 12 in concert.  Any fans of that Symphony?

It's fun, somewhat bombastic but not as powerful as the 11st. I enjoy it.

BTW, I wish you a good listen at the concert!  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on September 24, 2017, 08:02:01 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on September 24, 2017, 12:20:30 PM
It's fun, somewhat bombastic but not as powerful as the 11st. I enjoy it.

BTW, I wish you a good listen at the concert!  :)

The entire concert was fantastic!  The AYS is very good.   The brass sororities were suburb considering it a youth orchestra (though advanced).  It was clear the orchestra loved the work.  I overheard a violinist saying even though we are mostly static at the end, it is still so effective. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 24, 2017, 10:29:24 PM
Quote from: relm1 on September 24, 2017, 08:02:01 PM
The entire concert was fantastic!  The AYS is very good.   The brass sororities were suburb considering it a youth orchestra (though advanced).  It was clear the orchestra loved the work.  I overheard a violinist saying even though we are mostly static at the end, it is still so effective.

Glad you enjoyed it.

Who are AYS?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 25, 2017, 04:56:57 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 24, 2017, 07:22:53 AM
Today I am going to hear No. 12 in concert.  Any fans of that Symphony?

I'll bet it sounds well live!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on September 25, 2017, 06:10:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 24, 2017, 10:29:24 PM
Glad you enjoyed it.

Who are AYS?

It was this orchestra: http://aysymphony.org/

They sounded great!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 25, 2017, 07:07:27 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 25, 2017, 06:10:29 AM
It was this orchestra: http://aysymphony.org/

They sounded great!

Thanks - they look quite a slick enterprise.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: pjme on September 26, 2017, 09:53:01 AM
A recent discovery :

In the Moscou State archives an unknown work by Chostakovich has been found. It is an  "Impromptu" (Adagio - Allegro) for  viola and piano, dating from May 1931.
It is dedicated to Alexander Ryvkin, member of the Glasunov quartet. The score was found in the legacy of Vadim Borisovsky.



The Strad has this message:

A previously unknown work by Dmitri Shostakovich, a viola impromptu, has been discovered in Moscow's central archive, it was announced on 25 September, the composer's birthday.

The short work, consisting of title sheet, a single page for the viola part and one for the piano score, is titled Impromptu op.33. It was found among documents belonging to Vadim Borisovsky (d. 1972), the violist of the Beethoven Quartet for over 40 years.

The autograph on the title page, dated 2 May 1931, Leningrad, when Shostakovich was 24, dedicates the work to 'Alexander Mikhailovich' – assumed to be Alexander Ryvkin, violist of the Glazunov Quartet. It is dedicated 'in memory of our meeting' and this, along with the exact date and peculiarities of the score, as well as the title itself, are seen as conclusive evidence that the work was written spontaneously, in one sitting. A number of relevant authorities confirmed the autograph's authenticity prior to the announcement.

It is not known how the work passed from Ryvkin to Borisovksy, nor why Shostakovich later recycled the opus number for The Song of the Counterplan, the title music for the 1932 film Counterplan.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 26, 2017, 02:03:47 PM
Well, regarding the opus number, he seems to have adjusted them quite frequently while he was working on things.

It's always interesting when new compositions come to light, no matter how small.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 01, 2017, 10:47:58 AM
Recently listened to the man himself in his PC2 and was utterly mesmerized by his pianism. Looking forward to exploring the rest of this set:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81ZJKzNYE0L._SX466_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on October 02, 2017, 08:09:30 AM
I think he plays his own music very well (something apparently not true of all composer/performers, but who am I to judge).

However I do always feel, with piano parts written by Shostakovich, that they have been written to meet a less-than-virtuoso standard.  Presumably because he wrote with himself in mind, or Maxim.  (The 24 Preludes & Fugues is an obvious exception.)  It seems a bit odd for example, to hear Richter playing in the Piano Quintet - he so obviously could do it with one hand tied behind his back - the Concertos, the Cello Sonata, all leave me with the same impression.  Indeed Bernstein did play and conduct I think, for his recording of the 2nd Piano Concerto.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 02, 2017, 08:43:13 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on October 02, 2017, 08:09:30 AM
Indeed Bernstein did play and conduct I think, for his recording of the 2nd Piano Concerto.

That in itself does not rule out a virtuoso solo part, of course.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 04, 2017, 05:40:52 AM
Next Saturday morning BBC Radio 3 will be comparing different recordings of Symphony 11 'The Year 1905'.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 04, 2017, 05:53:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 04, 2017, 05:40:52 AM
Next Saturday morning BBC Radio 3 will be comparing different recordings of Symphony 11 'The Year 1905'.

Excellent, Jeffrey. It'll be interesting to see how my favorite Haitink/Concertgebouw stacks up against the rest.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 04, 2017, 12:13:33 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 04, 2017, 05:53:49 AM
Excellent, Jeffrey. It'll be interesting to see how my favorite Haitink/Concertgebouw stacks up against the rest.
I'll let you know John! Haitink's is a very fine one. Yesterday I listened to the Berglund version which I had on LP decades ago - another fine performance.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 04, 2017, 05:14:21 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 04, 2017, 12:13:33 PM
I'll let you know John! Haitink's is a very fine one. Yesterday I listened to the Berglund version which I had on LP decades ago - another fine performance.

I haven't heard the Berglund, but he's an outstanding conductor, so I imagine it's a good one indeed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 05, 2017, 06:10:15 AM
I remember also thinking highly of Mariss Jansons/Philadelphia Orchestra recording of the 11th.  But I also agree with Haitink/Concertgebouw being wonderful.  I must have a shout out to my old favorite, Stokowski/Houston.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 05, 2017, 08:47:39 AM
The Kondrashin is a fine performance as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 05, 2017, 03:30:22 PM
Any fans of Mark Wigglesworth's outing of No. 11 with Netherlands Radio?  I remember thinking it was an interesting perspective and very well recorded.  If you are fan, how would you rate it to the greats?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61rVl%2BsSPlL._SS500.jpg)

How about Maxim Shostakovich's with Prague? 

To me a fantastic recording of No. 11 requires this:

1. Deep mystery in first movement
2. Extreme viciousness in second movement
3. Glorious and powerful low horns in third movement at the funeral section (Stowkowski)
4. Superb cor anglais solo in fourth movement before coda.
5. At the start of the coda of the fourth movement, very bold horns (again Stowkowski)
6. Terrifying coda
7. Really good timpani (clear, in tune, etc.)
8. Very high fidelity audio with very wide dynamic range (willing to compromise on this but my holy grail would fulfill all these)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 06, 2017, 01:56:31 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 05, 2017, 03:30:22 PM
Any fans of Mark Wigglesworth's outing of No. 11 with Netherlands Radio?  I remember thinking it was an interesting perspective and very well recorded.  If you are fan, how would you rate it to the greats?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61rVl%2BsSPlL._SS500.jpg)

How about Maxim Shostakovich's with Prague? 

To me a fantastic recording of No. 11 requires this:

1. Deep mystery in first movement
2. Extreme viciousness in second movement
3. Glorious and powerful low horns in third movement at the funeral section (Stowkowski)
4. Superb cor anglais solo in fourth movement before coda.
5. At the start of the coda of the fourth movement, very bold horns (again Stowkowski)
6. Terrifying coda
7. Really good timpani (clear, in tune, etc.)
8. Very high fidelity audio with very wide dynamic range (willing to compromise on this but my holy grail would fulfill all these)
Very interesting observations. I have the Wigglesworth doing Symphony 4 which I thought was excellent so I will look out for his No.11. I very much agree with your requirements for a great recording, especially that cor anglais solo just before the end, to which I would add that the bells in the coda should be audible. Having heard Vladimir Jurowski perform the symphony in London a few weeks ago I think that 'proper bells' rather than tubular bells should be used - the effect was quite extraordinary with the audience shocked into silence at the end. The performance may still be on line. Caetani's and Kitajenko's CD recordings both have great bell contributions at the end and I like Berglund's overall performance with the Bournemouth SO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 06, 2017, 07:14:33 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 06, 2017, 01:56:31 AM
Very interesting observations. I have the Wigglesworth doing Symphony 4 which I thought was excellent so I will look out for his No.11. I very much agree with your requirements for a great recording, especially that cor anglais solo just before the end, to which I would add that the bells in the coda should be audible. Having heard Vladimir Jurowski perform the symphony in London a few weeks ago I think that 'proper bells' rather than tubular bells should be used - the effect was quite extraordinary with the audience shocked into silence at the end. The performance may still be on line. Caetani's and Kitajenko's CD recordings both have great bell contributions at the end and I like Berglund's overall performance with the Bournemouth SO.

Yes, I forgot the bells.  Absolutely need real bells and yes, the experience of a vicious coda with those lingering bells leaves audiences stunned speechless.  I heard this with MTT/SFO and we sat next to the percussion section which was a real treat.  My friend was blown away by the experience and could hardly talk after.  So yes, the perfect recording would capture that.  I didn't think very much of Vasily Petrenko's No. 11 (weak cor angalis, low horns...surprisingly since they were very fine in No. 5).  I will look for Jurowski's LPO recording.  I see it here https://www.bbc.co.uk/music/tracks/n48qp5 but the play button doesn't seem to work for me.  :(
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 06, 2017, 12:27:26 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 06, 2017, 07:14:33 AM
Yes, I forgot the bells.  Absolutely need real bells and yes, the experience of a vicious coda with those lingering bells leaves audiences stunned speechless.  I heard this with MTT/SFO and we sat next to the percussion section which was a real treat.  My friend was blown away by the experience and could hardly talk after.  So yes, the perfect recording would capture that.  I didn't think very much of Vasily Petrenko's No. 11 (weak cor angalis, low horns...surprisingly since they were very fine in No. 5).  I will look for Jurowski's LPO recording.  I see it here https://www.bbc.co.uk/music/tracks/n48qp5 but the play button doesn't seem to work for me.  :(

It doesn't work for me either - maybe no longer available. Coincidentally I tuned in to another excellent performance this afternoon on the Radio (BBC Radio 3 - Andrew Litton - live concert). Very fast coda but audience stunned into silence by those bells at the end.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 10, 2017, 03:47:30 PM
I have been listening to the new Naxos release of the complete score to The Gadfly and finding so much of the music very beautiful.  I was wondering have any of you actually seen the film?  I found it online but it doesn't have translation but it might be worth watching just to hear the music in its original context.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxOToo6J8jA
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 11, 2017, 01:08:19 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 10, 2017, 03:47:30 PM
I have been listening to the new Naxos release of the complete score to The Gadfly and finding so much of the music very beautiful.  I was wondering have any of you actually seen the film?  I found it online but it doesn't have translation but it might be worth watching just to hear the music in its original context.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxOToo6J8jA

The sample of that new CD on the Naxos website sounds very good.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 13, 2017, 12:07:25 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 05, 2017, 03:30:22 PM
Any fans of Mark Wigglesworth's outing of No. 11 with Netherlands Radio?  I remember thinking it was an interesting perspective and very well recorded.  If you are fan, how would you rate it to the greats?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61rVl%2BsSPlL._SS500.jpg)

How about Maxim Shostakovich's with Prague? 

To me a fantastic recording of No. 11 requires this:

1. Deep mystery in first movement
2. Extreme viciousness in second movement
3. Glorious and powerful low horns in third movement at the funeral section (Stowkowski)
4. Superb cor anglais solo in fourth movement before coda.
5. At the start of the coda of the fourth movement, very bold horns (again Stowkowski)
6. Terrifying coda
7. Really good timpani (clear, in tune, etc.)
8. Very high fidelity audio with very wide dynamic range (willing to compromise on this but my holy grail would fulfill all these)
I find that I do own this excellent performance  ::). It was very highly rated on the BBC Building a Library, Record Review on Saturday. Also positive mentions of Haitink (John, MI will be pleased  8)), Mravinsky and Rostropovich's LSO account although it is rather drawn out. But the top three were Wigglesworth, Kreizberg and Bychov (whom, I gather are half-brothers). The Bychov Berlin recording on Philips was the No.1 choice. They played the coda from that performance although I thought that the bells sounded a bit puny compared to what I have heard recently. The Kreizberg CD is very expensive. I still think very highly of the Berglund performance. If you can access the programme it is a great overview of the symphony.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 13, 2017, 04:05:06 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 13, 2017, 12:07:25 PM
I find that I do own this excellent performance  ::). It was very highly rated on the BBC Building a Library, Record Review on Saturday. Also positive mentions of Haitink (John, MI will be pleased  8)), Mravinsky and Rostropovich's LSO account although it is rather drawn out. But the top three were Wigglesworth, Kreizberg and Bychov (whom, I gather are half-brothers). The Bychov Berlin recording on Philips was the No.1 choice. They played the coda from that performance although I thought that the bells sounded a bit puny compared to what I have heard recently. The Kreizberg CD is very expensive. I still think very highly of the Berglund performance. If you can access the programme it is a great overview of the symphony.

Do you have a link?  The link I found http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/shostakovich/library.shtml says Rostropovich is there first choice:

Shostakovich: Symphony No. 11, 'The Year 1905'

First Choice:
Washington National Symphony Orchestra
ROSTROPOVICH, Mstislav (conductor)
TELDEC 0630-17046-2 (12-CD)
MID-PRICE
Coupled with: Complete symphonies
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 14, 2017, 01:16:46 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 13, 2017, 04:05:06 PM
Do you have a link?  The link I found http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/shostakovich/library.shtml says Rostropovich is there first choice:

Shostakovich: Symphony No. 11, 'The Year 1905'

First Choice:
Washington National Symphony Orchestra
ROSTROPOVICH, Mstislav (conductor)
TELDEC 0630-17046-2 (12-CD)
MID-PRICE
Coupled with: Complete symphonies

I'm not sure you can access it outside of the UK but I hope so. I couldn't access it on my iPad but was able to do so on my laptop:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09dwpt2

That may not work but if you type in 'BBC Radio 3 Record Review' and look for the most recent version (last Saturday) you should hopefully find it.

The link that you found must have been a previous review of the recordings. This time they spoke highly of Rostropovich's LSO account but said that it was too drawn out. They said, rightly I think, that he was not a great or even necessarily good conductor but that he could achieve great results if the music meant a lot to him personally - as in the case of Shostakovich for example.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on November 14, 2017, 03:50:32 AM
Drat. No love for Petrenko?

Mind you, that particular symphony (the first he recorded) is widely regarded to have sound/balance problems. Not insurmountable, but it's tricky to get a volume that works.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on November 14, 2017, 04:31:13 AM
Quote from: San Antonio on November 14, 2017, 04:23:40 AM
Just listened to The Preludes & Fugues (Melnikov); one of my favorite works by Shostakovich, and I enjoyed Melnikov's performance.  I had earlier listened to Hindemith's Ludus Tonalis (Berezovsky).  These two works of the 20th century were obviously inspired by the WTC - I wonder what other works might also fit that description?

Les Guitares bien tempérées, Op. 199, for two guitars (1962) by Castelnuovo-Tedesco - a set of preludes & fugues in each key.

https://www.youtube.com/v/VSeyHg6iPws
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2017, 06:01:26 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on November 14, 2017, 03:50:32 AM
Drat. No love for Petrenko?

Mind you, that particular symphony (the first he recorded) is widely regarded to have sound/balance problems. Not insurmountable, but it's tricky to get a volume that works.

I'm not sure what exactly it is about the Petrenko cycle overall that I don't like, but there's a certain kind of spirit missing in his performances that I hear in Haitink and Rozhdestvensky that I don't hear in Petrenko. I do agree with you, however, that the 11th is a difficult symphony to pull off well and that's not even discussing the challenges of the audio engineer. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 14, 2017, 11:25:52 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on November 14, 2017, 03:50:32 AM
Drat. No love for Petrenko?

Mind you, that particular symphony (the first he recorded) is widely regarded to have sound/balance problems. Not insurmountable, but it's tricky to get a volume that works.
Wasn't mentioned as far as I recall but nor were many other fine versions, including ones by Kondrashin, Lazarev, Pritchard, Caetani and Cluytens.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 14, 2017, 12:56:13 PM
I haven't heard Petrenko in the Eleventh. (Just since it was asked 8) )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on November 14, 2017, 06:51:36 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 14, 2017, 01:16:46 AM
I'm not sure you can access it outside of the UK but I hope so. I couldn't access it on my iPad but was able to do so on my laptop:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09dwpt2

That may not work but if you type in 'BBC Radio 3 Record Review' and look for the most recent version (last Saturday) you should hopefully find it.

The link that you found must have been a previous review of the recordings. This time they spoke highly of Rostropovich's LSO account but said that it was too drawn out. They said, rightly I think, that he was not a great or even necessarily good conductor but that he could achieve great results if the music meant a lot to him personally - as in the case of Shostakovich for example.

I think that Slava/LSO performance is the best 11th I have ever heard.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 14, 2017, 09:34:43 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 14, 2017, 06:51:36 PM
I think that Slava/LSO performance is the best 11th I have ever heard.
In pleased to hear that Jeffrey as I've just been asked to write the notes for a forthcoming CD release of that performance!
On the recent record review they said that it was special but also considerably longer than any other version. Rostropovich was close to Shostakovich which no doubt informed his performance. There's a great story of Shostakovich phoning Rostropovich up and saying 'come over immediately' which Rostropovich did. On arrival Shosrakovich said 'sit down over there'. After a while Shostakovich told Rostropovich that he could leave. He didn't say anything during Rostropovich's 'visit' but just wanted his physical company. I find it a very endearing story.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 15, 2017, 04:19:54 PM
I think Maxim Shostakovich/LSO No. 5 is very good.  It has one of the best Largo movements I have ever heard.   All of it very well performed and recorded.  I think it is a wonderful recording that doesn't get enough attention.  I am actually a fan of all of his Collins/LSO recordings.  The Prague recordings aren't bad, just not as great an orchestra.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 15, 2017, 04:22:09 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 15, 2017, 04:19:54 PM
I think Maxim Shostakovich/LSO No. 5 is very good.  It has one of the best Largo movements I have ever heard.   All of it very well performed and recorded.  I think it is a wonderful recording that doesn't get enough attention.  I am actually a fan of all of his Collins/LSO recordings.  The Prague recordings aren't bad, just not as great an orchestra.

Yes, Maxim's recordings on Collins are quite good indeed. I think our dear Dr. Henning is a fan of the Maxim Prague cycle. I haven't heard enough of it myself to comment on it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 16, 2017, 04:55:17 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 15, 2017, 04:19:54 PM
The Prague recordings aren't bad, just not as great an orchestra.

Aye, though I think them of more merit than not bad  0:)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on November 16, 2017, 06:42:42 AM
I have fallen in love with the second movement of Piano Concerto 2. With the risk of generalising, a rather atypical Shostakovich movement in that it is very calm music and has no notable (or, at least, not many) dissonances.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 16, 2017, 07:35:03 AM
Quote from: Alberich on November 16, 2017, 06:42:42 AM
I have fallen in love with the second movement of Piano Concerto 2. With the risk of generalising, a rather atypical Shostakovich movement in that it is very calm music and has no notable (or, at least, not many) dissonances.

Yes, my wife and daughter who are no fans of Shostakovich love this movement. I've just ordered the old version with Cluytens conducting.
I'm a fan of Linus too and have his 'collected thoughts'.
:)

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 16, 2017, 07:38:02 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 16, 2017, 04:55:17 AM
Aye, though I think them of more merit than not bad  0:)

I like the Prague set as well. Good to hear Maxim's insights. Why his Melodiya recording of Symphony 15 (with the USSR SO I think) has never been issued on CD baffles me. It is IMHO the greatest version of all.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 16, 2017, 06:01:08 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 16, 2017, 07:38:02 AM
I like the Prague set as well. Good to hear Maxim's insights. Why his Melodiya recording of Symphony 15 (with the USSR SO I think) has never been issued on CD baffles me. It is IMHO the greatest version of all.

Maxim's excellent account of the 15th has been reissued, but in this box set and not in any kind of single issue unfortunately:

[asin]B01DEAJ9I6[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jo498 on November 16, 2017, 11:04:00 PM
I do not know that mixed set but I think some of these recordings were available before and very positively received. My recollection is from 20 years ago or so and back then the availability of Melodiya stuff was limited, so I might be wrong and it could have been a somewhat different collection or mainly the Mravinsky items or whatever. But for serious DSCH fans it is probably a worthwhile acquisition
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 16, 2017, 11:36:07 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 16, 2017, 06:01:08 PM
Maxim's excellent account of the 15th has been reissued, but in this box set and not in any kind of single issue unfortunately:

[asin]B01DEAJ9I6[/asin]
Never seen that set. Thanks John.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 17, 2017, 03:58:36 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 16, 2017, 11:04:00 PM
I do not know that mixed set but I think some of these recordings were available before and very positively received. My recollection is from 20 years ago or so and back then the availability of Melodiya stuff was limited, so I might be wrong and it could have been a somewhat different collection or mainly the Mravinsky items or whatever. But for serious DSCH fans it is probably a worthwhile acquisition

There is some duplication from my already existing collection like there's several Rozhdestvensky and Kondrashin performances, but there was enough that I didn't own to make it worthwhile.

Quote from: vandermolen on November 16, 2017, 11:36:07 PMNever seen that set. Thanks John.

You're quite welcome, Jeffrey. It's a good looking set as well --- quite a nice presentation.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 17, 2017, 10:34:19 AM
I have at least four sets of the string quartets (Emersons, Borodins, Mandelring, Pacifica).  It is not difficult to find word on the Interwebs (and even here at GMG) expressing anything from disdain to disappointment about the Emersons.  Those naysayers notwithstanding, whenever I listen to the Emersons play a Shostakovich quartet, I never – absolutely never – find myself thinking, "Gee, I wish I could hear someone else play this."

That is all.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 18, 2017, 04:35:26 PM
I adore "Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District" but have never heard "Katerina Izmailova".  What are the differences?  Would you consider them equivalent or is one vastly superior to the other rendering the other insignificant? 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on November 18, 2017, 06:03:48 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 17, 2017, 10:34:19 AM
I have at least four sets of the string quartets (Emersons, Borodins, Mandelring, Pacifica).  It is not difficult to find word on the Interwebs (and even here at GMG) expressing anything from disdain to disappointment about the Emersons.  Those naysayers notwithstanding, whenever I listen to the Emersons play a Shostakovich quartet, I never – absolutely never – find myself thinking, "Gee, I wish I could hear someone else play this."

That is all.

I feel that way about a lot of Emerson recordings!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 21, 2017, 11:04:41 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 18, 2017, 04:35:26 PM
I adore "Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District" but have never heard "Katerina Izmailova".  What are the differences?  Would you consider them equivalent or is one vastly superior to the other rendering the other insignificant? 

I cannot answer, though to be able to answer has been on my To Do List for a while.

It doesn't help that Ledi Makbet has been performed under the title of Katerina Izmailova . . .

Shostakovich labored long on the revision, at a time when the physical task was not easy, so my inclination is to presume that the differences are significant, or were, to the composer.  It also explains why I think that the stance (not that anyone here has so asserted) that the original is superior, and that the revision is not worth even considering, is rather a discourtesy to the composer.

But I hope to answer in musical terms . . . at some point.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on November 21, 2017, 12:49:44 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 21, 2017, 11:04:41 AM
I cannot answer, though to be able to answer has been on my To Do List for a while.

It doesn't help that Ledi Makbet has been performed under the title of Katerina Izmailova . . .

Shostakovich labored long on the revision, at a time when the physical task was not easy, so my inclination is to presume that the differences are significant, or were, to the composer.  It also explains why I think that the stance (not that anyone here has so asserted) that the original is superior, and that the revision is not worth even considering, is rather a discourtesy to the composer.

But I hope to answer in musical terms . . . at some point.

Is the revised version, or the original version under the name of K.I.?
[asin]B000I5YRJC[/asin]
The Amazon reviews are clear that some severe cuts were made to bring the film in under the 115 minute mark..but not clear about the version used.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 21, 2017, 12:57:29 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 21, 2017, 12:49:44 PM
Is the revised version, or the original version under the name of K.I.?
[asin]B000I5YRJC[/asin]
The Amazon reviews are clear that some severe cuts were made to bring the film in under the 115 minute mark..but not clear about the version used.

The revision.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha SYMPHONY NO.1
Post by: snyprrr on November 26, 2017, 07:43:31 AM
Enjoyed Bernstein's No.1 (SONY) yesterday, such a macabre and hollow sounding work, almost like Schnittke? or early BAZ? Sounds like it was written in 1949!! One does hear a lot of future footprints here...

...hollow, slightly creepy, existential... made me think of Peter Lorre in 'M'.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on November 27, 2017, 02:09:13 AM
It's not a very fashionable view hereabouts, but I regard the 1st Symphony as among Dmitri's very best compositions.
Up there with the 1st Violin Concerto, 1st Cello Concerto, 2nd Piano Trio and 15th Symphony.  Oh, and the Preludes & Fugues.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 27, 2017, 02:32:54 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 27, 2017, 02:09:13 AM
It's not a very fashionable view hereabouts, but I regard the 1st Symphony as among Dmitri's very best compositions.
Up there with the 1st Violin Concerto, 1st Cello Concerto, 2nd Piano Trio and 15th Symphony.  Oh, and the Preludes & Fugues.
I think that the First Symphony is great - fully characteristic in a way and with a terrific coda. I often play it. I much prefer it to Nos 2 and 3.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 27, 2017, 03:55:00 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 27, 2017, 02:09:13 AM
It's not a very fashionable view hereabouts, but I regard the 1st Symphony as among Dmitri's very best compositions.

Whether or not it is fashionable hereabouts, you must agree that it is a little peculiar to tout so early a work as among any composer's very best compositions.

I am inevitably reminded of a former GMG'er who felt that Sibelius went downhill pretty much after his First Symphony . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mahlerian on November 27, 2017, 03:57:37 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 27, 2017, 02:09:13 AM
It's not a very fashionable view hereabouts, but I regard the 1st Symphony as among Dmitri's very best compositions.
Up there with the 1st Violin Concerto, 1st Cello Concerto, 2nd Piano Trio and 15th Symphony.  Oh, and the Preludes & Fugues.

I think the first two movements of the First are quite good, but the other two always strike me as weaker.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 27, 2017, 04:03:36 AM
Putting the Op.10 on a par with the Op.87 is not unfashionable, it is eccentric   ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on November 27, 2017, 06:59:33 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 27, 2017, 04:03:36 AM
Putting the Op.10 on a par with the Op.87 is not unfashionable, it is eccentric   ;)
about No.1
There is a freedom in No.1 that gets lost after No.4,... no? And there is a purity about No.1, as the thoughts of, what a 19yo? Whether it is on par with anything else, it is still its own thing, never to be duplicated (except perhaps in No.4).

87? Is that No.5? Yea, those are two totally different people there,... eh?


Think of it this way- what if No.1 was actually No.5?? What if he had to turn No.1 (let's say he premiered it and it wasn't liked) into No.5? What would No.1 sound like if he had to re-compose it to meet party approval?


btw- No.1 then comes from a completely different time. For what it is, it is unbuttoned and full of youthful (macabre) energy,... perhaps early Hindemith on drugs?



some people actually prefer a wunderkind's early blazes to their mature masterpieces.... not saying anything...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kyjo on November 27, 2017, 10:18:53 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 27, 2017, 02:09:13 AM
It's not a very fashionable view hereabouts, but I regard the 1st Symphony as among Dmitri's very best compositions.
Up there with the 1st Violin Concerto, 1st Cello Concerto, 2nd Piano Trio and 15th Symphony.  Oh, and the Preludes & Fugues.

Interesting! I've never really thought much of the 1st Symphony, thinking it a rather hollow work, but there are parts of it that I enjoy (particularly the timpani solo in the finale). What's your favorite recording?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on November 27, 2017, 12:15:06 PM
I thought rating No.1 highly was pretty common. After all, this is the piece that made Shostakovich an international star.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 27, 2017, 11:22:32 PM
Quote from: kyjo on November 27, 2017, 10:18:53 AM
Interesting! I've never really thought much of the 1st Symphony, thinking it a rather hollow work, but there are parts of it that I enjoy (particularly the timpani solo in the finale). What's your favorite recording?
Butting in here Kyle but just to say that I like the old Ormandy recording and the more recent Jarvi one on Chandos. Also Haitink, whose Shostakovich symphonies set is probably my overall favourite.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 28, 2017, 01:05:27 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on November 27, 2017, 06:59:33 AM
about No.1
There is a freedom in No.1 that gets lost after No.4,... no? And there is a purity about No.1, as the thoughts of, what a 19yo? Whether it is on par with anything else, it is still its own thing, never to be duplicated (except perhaps in No.4).

87? Is that No.5? Yea, those are two totally different people there,... eh?


Think of it this way- what if No.1 was actually No.5?? What if he had to turn No.1 (let's say he premiered it and it wasn't liked) into No.5? What would No.1 sound like if he had to re-compose it to meet party approval?


btw- No.1 then comes from a completely different time. For what it is, it is unbuttoned and full of youthful (macabre) energy,... perhaps early Hindemith on drugs?



some people actually prefer a wunderkind's early blazes to their mature masterpieces.... not saying anything...

I do enjoy the pre-"Muddle" pieces, especially for the window upon the as-yet-not-quashed young artist, sure.  (The Op.87 are the Preludes & Fugues.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on November 28, 2017, 07:17:14 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 28, 2017, 01:05:27 AM
I do enjoy the pre-"Muddle" pieces, especially for the window upon the as-yet-not-quashed young artist, sure.  (The Op.87 are the Preludes & Fugues.)

So... you're admitting you were wrong. That's mighty big of you, Karl! :D












titters ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kyjo on November 28, 2017, 07:24:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 27, 2017, 11:22:32 PM
Butting in here Kyle but just to say that I like the old Ormandy recording and the more recent Jarvi one on Chandos. Also Haitink, whose Shostakovich symphonies set is probably my overall favourite.

Thanks, Jeffrey. I haven't heard any of those recordings, so I'll be sure to check them out :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 28, 2017, 07:24:30 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on November 28, 2017, 07:17:14 AM
So... you're admitting you were wrong.

I'm repeating something I've said ere now, and more than once, viz. the "pre-Muddle" works.  And, to clarify, I'll repeat and amplify my point of yesterday:  it is ridiculous to put on par, music of the mastery and assurance of the Op.87 Preludes & Fugues, and a brilliant graduation piece by the untempered boy composer.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 28, 2017, 07:27:39 AM
Quote from: kyjo on November 27, 2017, 10:18:53 AM
Interesting! I've never really thought much of the 1st Symphony, thinking it a rather hollow work, but there are parts of it that I enjoy (particularly the timpani solo in the finale). What's your favorite recording?

You didn't ask me, but . . . possibly this one:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61iJktRcGZL.jpg)

(Some years ago, I did a survey of 4-6 recordings of the First . . . I should try to dig it up.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on November 28, 2017, 07:29:39 AM
Quote from: kyjo on November 28, 2017, 07:24:13 AM
Thanks, Jeffrey. I haven't heard any of those recordings, so I'll be sure to check them out :)

This is also a good one
[asin]B0001EMM42[/asin]

Although I don't remember paying anything close to the current Amazon MP pricing.  Must be OOP.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on November 28, 2017, 07:32:09 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 28, 2017, 07:24:30 AM
I'm repeating something I've said ere now, and more than once, viz. the "pre-Muddle" works.  And, to clarify, I'll repeat and amplify my point of yesterday:  it is ridiculous to put on par, music of the mastery and assurance of the Op.87 Preludes & Fugues, and a brilliant graduation piece by the untempered boy composer.

Cough cough....
Some of us do find a good deal of mastery and assurance already present in the First Symphony, however different it is from the later works.
Enough that the Second and Third Symphonies seem a bit of a come-down after the First.  Or perhaps simply a valley between a Matterhorn and an Annapurna (the Fourth),
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 28, 2017, 07:35:21 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 28, 2017, 07:32:09 AM
Cough cough....
Some of us do find a good deal of mastery and assurance already present in the First Symphony, however different it is from the later works.

At the risk of straining after that gnat, yes, I agree that there is m. and a. (not Moses and Aron!) already p. in the Op.10.

Tangentially:  the only time I have heard the Op.10 live, was in Tallinn.  And . . . I regret to report that it was rather a musically tepid experience.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 28, 2017, 09:36:18 AM
Quote from: San Antonio on November 28, 2017, 07:46:48 AM
Just bought this set which I will be investigating forthwith:

(http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s300x300/4757413.jpg)
You won't regret it I'm sure.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 28, 2017, 09:37:25 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 28, 2017, 07:29:39 AM
This is also a good one
[asin]B0001EMM42[/asin]

Although I don't remember paying anything close to the current Amazon MP pricing.  Must be OOP.
He also conducted an excellent version of Symphony 10 on a budget label many years ago.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 28, 2017, 09:37:57 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 28, 2017, 07:27:39 AM
You didn't ask me, but . . . possibly this one:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61iJktRcGZL.jpg)

(Some years ago, I did a survey of 4-6 recordings of the First . . . I should try to dig it up.)
Also VG.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on November 28, 2017, 12:03:05 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 28, 2017, 09:37:25 AM
He also conducted an excellent version of Symphony 10 on a budget label many years ago.

Amazon lists a Tenth on Denon, perhaps that's the same one.
The same Halle series includes a performance of the 10th with him at the helm.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 28, 2017, 12:44:01 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 28, 2017, 12:03:05 PM
Amazon lists a Tenth on Denon, perhaps that's the same one.
The same Halle series includes a performance of the 10th with him at the helm.
I've just located my copy - on the super-budget 'IMP' label with the Halle Orchestra. recorded in Albert Hall, Bolton on November 24th and 25th 1990 (PCD 2043).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kishnevi on November 28, 2017, 01:00:32 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 28, 2017, 12:44:01 PM
I've just located my copy - on the super-budget 'IMP' label with the Halle Orchestra. recorded in Albert Hall, Bolton on November 24th and 25th 1990 (PCD 2043).

Checks on Amazon.
This is yours
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51q1X0ZOzBL.jpg)
Which is actually the same as mine, it seems
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519NaeJ1Z0L.jpg)
But there are two other completely different performances
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51sk0ojpweL.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZRLcw07KL.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on November 28, 2017, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 27, 2017, 11:22:32 PM
Butting in here Kyle but just to say that I like the old Ormandy recording and the more recent Jarvi one on Chandos. Also Haitink, whose Shostakovich symphonies set is probably my overall favourite.

Certainly mine too. It's the most consistent one.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on November 28, 2017, 02:01:04 PM
Quote from: San Antonio on November 28, 2017, 07:46:48 AM
Just bought this set which I will be investigating forthwith:

(http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s300x300/4757413.jpg)

You can't go wrong with it, definitely not  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on November 28, 2017, 08:01:21 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 28, 2017, 07:32:09 AM
Cough cough....
Some of us do find a good deal of mastery and assurance already present in the First Symphony, however different it is from the later works.
Enough that the Second and Third Symphonies seem a bit of a come-down after the First.  Or perhaps simply a valley between a Matterhorn and an Annapurna (the Fourth),

Karl seems tense, no? Methinks it's the influence of BACH that's somehow being missed here. Op.10 is PURE Shosty, whereas the formal perfection of the P&Fs comes from... Bach.

So,... there's that! :P
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha: Capitalist Exploitation!!!
Post by: Cato on December 23, 2017, 03:57:42 AM
The imperialist running dogs of capitalism    $:)   shamelessly exploit People's Hero Composer Comrade Shostakovich !  :o   ;)

Just listen!

https://www.youtube.com/v/_0LseZ5BlnI

(The Second Waltz from the Suite for Variety Orchestra a.k.a.  Jazz Suite #2 )


Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 23, 2017, 04:26:41 AM
That number has made the rounds! Eyes Wide Shut . . . the "Champagne for One" episode from A Nero Wolfe Mystery . . . .

Bet it would make a good swap for the "Grand Central Station magic" scene in The Fisher King, too!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: arpeggio on March 07, 2018, 05:46:49 AM
Last night at the Strathmore Music Center in Rockville, Maryland I attended a concert of the Philadelphia Orchestra performing the Shostakovich Seventh Symphony.  Yannick Nézet-Séguin was conducting.

I take back every negative thought I have had of The SeventhIT WAS AWESOME :D

The boys and girls of Philly blew it away.  The strings were magnificant.  There is a real body to their sound.  Shostakovich likes the contrabassoon and has composed some great contra parts.  Even in a subsidiary role the contra has some real important parts that came through in the live performance.  The lady contra player even got a standing ovation.

What I did not realize is that Shostakovich employed an antiphonal double brass section, one on stage left and one on stage right.  The only brass instrument that was not doubled was the Tuba.

In that live performanc I was hearing all sorts of things I have never noticed before.

My wife rarely gives a standing ovation.  I think that this was only the fourth time she has ever given one.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 07, 2018, 06:15:49 AM
Quote from: arpeggio on March 07, 2018, 05:46:49 AM
Last night at the Strathmore Music Center in Rockville, Maryland I attended a concert of the Philadelphia Orchestra performing the Shostakovich Seventh Symphony.  Yannick Nézet-Séguin was conducting.

I take back every negative thought I have had of The SeventhIT WAS AWESOME :D

The boys and girls of Philly blew it away.  The strings were magnificant.  There is a real body to their sound.  Shostakovich likes the contrabassoon and has composed some great contra parts.  Even in a subsidiary role the contra has some real important parts that came through in the live performance.  The lady contra player even got a standing ovation.

What I did not realize is that Shostakovich employed a antiphonal double brass section, one on stage left and one on stage right.  The only brass instrument that was not doubled was the Tuba.

In that live performanc I was hearing all sorts of things I have never noticed before.

My wife rarely gives a standing ovation.  I think that this was only the fourth time she has ever given one.

That's great to hear!  A friend played in the brass for that very concert - will let him know you and your wife approved.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on March 07, 2018, 06:20:37 AM
Quote from: arpeggio on March 07, 2018, 05:46:49 AM
Last night at the Strathmore Music Center in Rockville, Maryland I attended a concert of the Philadelphia Orchestra performing the Shostakovich Seventh Symphony.  Yannick Nézet-Séguin was conducting.

I take back every negative thought I have had of The SeventhIT WAS AWESOME :D

The boys and girls of Philly blew it away.  The strings were magnificant.  There is a real body to their sound.  Shostakovich likes the contrabassoon and has composed some great contra parts.  Even in a subsidiary role the contra has some real important parts that came through in the live performance.  The lady contra player even got a standing ovation.

What I did not realize is that Shostakovich employed a antiphonal double brass section, one on stage left and one on stage right.  The only brass instrument that was not doubled was the Tuba.

In that live performanc I was hearing all sorts of things I have never noticed before.

My wife rarely gives a standing ovation.  I think that this was only the fourth time she has ever given one.

The Leningrad has much more depth to it that many are unaware of or simply choose not to acknowledge. The Adagio movement is gut-wrenching and incredibly powerful in it's emotional expression.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 07, 2018, 06:25:24 AM
Quote from: arpeggio on March 07, 2018, 05:46:49 AM
Last night at the Strathmore Music Center in Rockville, Maryland I attended a concert of the Philadelphia Orchestra performing the Shostakovich Seventh Symphony.  Yannick Nézet-Séguin was conducting.

I take back every negative thought I have had of The SeventhIT WAS AWESOME :D

The boys and girls of Philly blew it away.  The strings were magnificant.  There is a real body to their sound.  Shostakovich likes the contrabassoon and has composed some great contra parts.  Even in a subsidiary role the contra has some real important parts that came through in the live performance.  The lady contra player even got a standing ovation.

What I did not realize is that Shostakovich employed a antiphonal double brass section, one on stage left and one on stage right.  The only brass instrument that was not doubled was the Tuba.

In that live performanc I was hearing all sorts of things I have never noticed before.

My wife rarely gives a standing ovation.  I think that this was only the fourth time she has ever given one.

Although I had already upgraded my opinion of the Symphony ahead of the concert, we too heard a life-changingly amazing live performance of the Leningrad, in Worcester's Mechanics Hall, Gergiev leading the Mariinka.  They absolutely raised the roof.  I am thrilled that you have a "Road to Leningrad via Damascus"  8) experience!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: arpeggio on March 08, 2018, 12:14:12 PM
Review in the Washington Post about Philadelphia performing the Shostakovich Seventh.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/philadelphia-orchestra-triumphs-in-epic-seventh-symphony/2018/03/07/93fde9e8-222b-11e8-946c-9420060cb7bd_story.html?utm_term=.98ac6a03c573 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/philadelphia-orchestra-triumphs-in-epic-seventh-symphony/2018/03/07/93fde9e8-222b-11e8-946c-9420060cb7bd_story.html?utm_term=.98ac6a03c573)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Moonfish on May 22, 2018, 03:17:36 PM
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 10                 Mravinsky/Leningrad PO

Excellent! The horns! The horns!  Ahhhhhhh! I cannot quite decide if I like this one better than Rostropovich's rendition. Hmm...
*leaning towards Mravinsky*

This is such a great symphony! I have been obsessed with Rostopovich's performance of S10 in the past so Mravinsky's performance with the Leningrad forces impressed me. (Perhaps I'm too easily impressed by the Russian horn section?). I feel like I'm wandering through a storm of challenges, wind beating my face and destiny is rapidly approaching. Ah, fate!

What are your favorite 10s?


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/513TlhiqrzL._SY300_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71xmBsWLyjL._SX522_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2018, 04:47:52 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 22, 2018, 03:17:36 PM
[...] What are your favorite 10s?

Jansons/Phila. to start with.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: NikF on May 23, 2018, 06:06:53 AM
Last night saw me complete my attendance of a five night series of recitals; Shostakovich 24 Preludes and Fugues (along with the Bach 48) and what an experience it was. Although already aware of them, these pieces by Shosty showed (within my still limited frame of reference) in a vivid and almost provocative manner another and perhaps more liberated side to him.
As an aside: each evening of the recitals was limited to a maximum audience of approximately 90 people seated in a relatively small room. And what a pleasure to be part of what felt at times almost a vicarious experience. My thanks to Gusztav Fenyo (http://fenyo-musicmakers.co.uk/about-gusztav-fenyo/) for further illuminating Shostakovich, but also introducing me to the Bach - I'm not qualified to pass judgement on his performance as a pianist, but I feel that even from piece to piece how he employed dynamics was wonderful - and that consistency extended to and was also readily apparent from evening to evening.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 23, 2018, 06:12:58 AM
Great to hear, Nik! Shostakovich's Preludes & Fugues is an incredible piece of music. I'd like to acquire a few more recordings of it. Right now, I only own Melnikov's recording on Harmonia Mundi, which is exquisite.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: NikF on May 23, 2018, 06:22:30 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 23, 2018, 06:12:58 AM
Great to hear, Nik! Shostakovich's Preludes & Fugues is an incredible piece of music. I'd like to acquire a few more recordings of it. Right now, I only own Melnikov's recording on Harmonia Mundi, which is exquisite.

Hey pal! Yeah, I'll eventually expand my own meagre collection, beyond the Nikolayeva recordings.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 23, 2018, 06:31:48 AM
Quote from: NikF on May 23, 2018, 06:06:53 AM
Last night saw me complete my attendance of a five night series of recitals; Shostakovich 24 Preludes and Fugues (along with the Bach 48) and what an experience it was. Although already aware of them, these pieces by Shosty showed (within my still limited frame of reference) in a vivid and almost provocative manner another and perhaps more liberated side to him.
As an aside: each evening of the recitals was limited to a maximum audience of approximately 90 people seated in a relatively small room. And what a pleasure to be part of what felt at times almost a vicarious experience. My thanks to Gusztav Fenyo (http://fenyo-musicmakers.co.uk/about-gusztav-fenyo/) for further illuminating Shostakovich, but also introducing me to the Bach - I'm not qualified to pass judgement on his performance as a pianist, but I feel that even from piece to piece how he employed dynamics was wonderful - and that consistency extended to and was also readily apparent from evening to evening.


Splendid!

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 23, 2018, 06:12:58 AM
Great to hear, Nik! Shostakovich's Preludes & Fugues is an incredible piece of music. I'd like to acquire a few more recordings of it. Right now, I only own Melnikov's recording on Harmonia Mundi, which is exquisite.

The Melnikov set is wonderful.

Very good, also, is the Scherbakov on Naxos.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 23, 2018, 06:32:37 AM
Quote from: NikF on May 23, 2018, 06:22:30 AM
Hey pal! Yeah, I'll eventually expand my own meagre collection, beyond the Nikolayeva recordings.

I still need to get those Nikolayeva recordings. Her performances of this work are quite highly lauded.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 23, 2018, 06:34:36 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 23, 2018, 06:31:48 AMThe Melnikov set is wonderful.

Very good, also, is the Scherbakov on Naxos.

Excellent, Karl. I'll be acquiring Scherbakov I'm sure (at some point).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: snyprrr on May 23, 2018, 12:24:24 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 22, 2018, 03:17:36 PM
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 10                 Mravinsky/Leningrad PO

Excellent! The horns! The horns!  Ahhhhhhh! I cannot quite decide if I like this one better than Rostropovich's rendition. Hmm...
*leaning towards Mravinsky*

This is such a great symphony! I have been obsessed with Rostopovich's performance of S10 in the past so Mravinsky's performance with the Leningrad forces impressed me. (Perhaps I'm too easily impressed by the Russian horn section?). I feel like I'm wandering through a storm of challenges, wind beating my face and destiny is rapidly approaching. Ah, fate!

What are your favorite 10s?


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/513TlhiqrzL._SY300_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71xmBsWLyjL._SX522_.jpg)

I find so many that start off so quietly, and one can't hear the basses- so, fidelity is an issue with this work. I have Karajan, that British 'live' one (Mackerras?) that everyone says is the best, Ashkenazy, ... and maybe one other...

... I was liking Ashkenazy here (he's hit/miss with me)...

...at least I can hear the Karajan...


...Janssons?...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on May 23, 2018, 06:48:02 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 22, 2018, 03:17:36 PM
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 10                 Mravinsky/Leningrad PO

Excellent! The horns! The horns!  Ahhhhhhh! I cannot quite decide if I like this one better than Rostropovich's rendition. Hmm...
*leaning towards Mravinsky*

This is such a great symphony! I have been obsessed with Rostopovich's performance of S10 in the past so Mravinsky's performance with the Leningrad forces impressed me. (Perhaps I'm too easily impressed by the Russian horn section?). I feel like I'm wandering through a storm of challenges, wind beating my face and destiny is rapidly approaching. Ah, fate!

What are your favorite 10s?


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/513TlhiqrzL._SY300_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71xmBsWLyjL._SX522_.jpg)
I'll put in a good word for Dmitri Mitropoulos & the New York Phil, whose recording is the American premiere (supervised by Shostakovich via telephone) and which I found much more tolerable than any post-1975 recording of the symphony. Also worth mentioning is Dmitri Shostakovich and Mieczysław Weinberg's recording of the version for piano four hands.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on May 24, 2018, 02:34:28 AM
Svetlanov / USSR SO - but I must seek out that Mravinsky, looks like my cup of tea.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 23, 2018, 06:32:37 AM
I still need to get those Nikolayeva recordings. Her performances of this work are quite highly lauded.

Nikolayeva
was supposedly well over the hill when she recorded the Hyperion set of the Preludes & Fugues.  I must say I don't notice anything untoward, and the piano recording is exceptionally good (warm, in an open acoustic), and of course Nikolayeva is uniquely authoritative in this music.  This was actually the first CD (set) I ever bought - having a collection of about 800 LPs, I finally cracked and bought my first CD player, and this set to play on it.  In retrospect was a very good choice.

(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51IugYnPkKL._SS500.jpg)
My own favourite recording now is actually Jenny Lin on Hanssler (generally a bit more brio than either Nikolayeva or Melnikov, and the best recorded of any P&F set, I think). 
To be avoided, unfortunately, is Keith Jarrett, pale and lifeless.  Somewhere in between - Nikolayeva on Melodiya, Woodward, Papadopoulos, Mustonen, DSCH himself (on Naxos) - and a special mention for Peter Katina who plays them on accordion (not a complete set).
(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511hwTSHRXL._SS500.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2018, 03:09:50 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 24, 2018, 02:34:28 AM
To be avoided, unfortunately, is Keith Jarrett, pale and lifeless.

Unfortunately, agreed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2018, 07:03:16 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 24, 2018, 02:34:28 AMNikolayeva was supposedly well over the hill when she recorded the Hyperion set of the Preludes & Fugues.  I must say I don't notice anything untoward, and the piano recording is exceptionally good (warm, in an open acoustic), and of course Nikolayeva is uniquely authoritative in this music.  This was actually the first CD (set) I ever bought - having a collection of about 800 LPs, I finally cracked and bought my first CD player, and this set to play on it.  In retrospect was a very good choice.

(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51IugYnPkKL._SS500.jpg)
My own favourite recording now is actually Jenny Lin on Hanssler (generally a bit more brio than either Nikolayeva or Melnikov, and the best recorded of any P&F set, I think). 
To be avoided, unfortunately, is Keith Jarrett, pale and lifeless.  Somewhere in between - Nikolayeva on Melodiya, Woodward, Papadopoulos, Mustonen, DSCH himself (on Naxos) - and a special mention for Peter Katina who plays them on accordion (not a complete set).
(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511hwTSHRXL._SS500.jpg)

Thanks for the recommendations. There's much to mull over here.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on May 24, 2018, 07:12:08 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 22, 2018, 03:17:36 PM
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 10                 Mravinsky/Leningrad PO

Excellent! The horns! The horns!  Ahhhhhhh! I cannot quite decide if I like this one better than Rostropovich's rendition. Hmm...
*leaning towards Mravinsky*

This is such a great symphony! I have been obsessed with Rostopovich's performance of S10 in the past so Mravinsky's performance with the Leningrad forces impressed me. (Perhaps I'm too easily impressed by the Russian horn section?). I feel like I'm wandering through a storm of challenges, wind beating my face and destiny is rapidly approaching. Ah, fate!

What are your favorite 10s?

Karl mentioned Jansons/Philadelphia, which is excellent. Also:

Karajan/Berlin (both versions)
Solti/Chicago (surprised me)
Dohnányi/Cleveland (with a great coupling, Lutoslawski Musique funèbre)
Haitink/LPO

Browsing Amazon, there are many versions I've not yet heard, such as the recent one with Andris Nelsons/Boston. Great to have so many recordings of the piece available.

--Bruce


Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Baron Scarpia on May 24, 2018, 07:28:30 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 23, 2018, 06:31:48 AM
Splendid!

The Melnikov set is wonderful.

Very good, also, is the Scherbakov on Naxos.

Oddly, no one ever seems to mention Ashkenazy's Shostakovich 24 p&f. It was my introduction to the piece, and the only recording I've ever listened to.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2018, 07:45:49 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on May 24, 2018, 07:28:30 AM
Oddly, no one ever seems to mention Ashkenazy's Shostakovich 24 p&f. It was my introduction to the piece, and the only recording I've ever listened to.

I've not heard it!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Baron Scarpia on May 24, 2018, 07:49:15 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 24, 2018, 07:45:49 AM
I've not heard it!

It seems to be out-of-print and rare these days. I seem to recall it was a standard choice back in the day, before lots of recordings started coming out.

[asin]B00005FKSA[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2018, 07:56:44 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on May 24, 2018, 07:49:15 AM
It seems to be out-of-print and rare these days. I seem to recall it was a standard choice back in the day, before lots of recordings started coming out.

[asin]B00005FKSA[/asin]


This languishes in my Wish List, chiefly for the Ashkenazy.

[asin]B000FG4KBE[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on May 24, 2018, 09:03:33 AM
It's been a while, but I recall thinking very highly of the Ashkenazy Op. 87 (preferring it over the excellent Scherbakov) - and of the rest of that box. ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2018, 09:49:43 AM
Quote from: North Star on May 24, 2018, 09:03:33 AM
It's been a while, but I recall thinking very highly of the Ashkenazy Op. 87 (preferring it over the excellent Scherbakov) - and of the rest of that box. ;)

Noted, good sieur!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 24, 2018, 04:29:17 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on May 24, 2018, 07:49:15 AM
It seems to be out-of-print and rare these days. I seem to recall it was a standard choice back in the day, before lots of recordings started coming out.

[asin]B00005FKSA[/asin]


Yeah, I've praised this set many times on the board, and I've spent an almost equal amount of time fighting with Bulldog who decidedly isn't a fan of the set! :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2018, 07:51:07 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread:

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 24, 2018, 07:46:24 PM
Just bought:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51LrEkPfOwL.jpg)

I've had my eye on this set ever since I bought the Melnikov set on Harmonia Mundi, but I finally decided to just go for it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Ken B on May 24, 2018, 08:38:21 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 24, 2018, 07:51:07 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread:

I've had my eye on this set ever since I bought the Melnikov set on Harmonia Mundi, but I finally decided to just go for it.

Essential. I prefer her Hyperion set — a minority opinion — but both are great.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2018, 08:49:12 PM
Quote from: Ken B on May 24, 2018, 08:38:21 PM
Essential. I prefer her Hyperion set — a minority opinion — but both are great.

Why would you say you find the Hyperion set more preferable? Yes, yours is a minority opinion as I've read that most listeners seem to prefer the 60s and 80s performances.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Ken B on May 24, 2018, 09:01:28 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 24, 2018, 08:49:12 PM
Why would you say you find the Hyperion set more preferable? Yes, yours is a minority opinion as I've read that most listeners seem to prefer the 60s and 80s performances.
The better sound helps. I also found it more reflective. There's a lot of low-key stuff and I think that comes across better. I have all three and like them all.
I also like the set on Atma, but I forget the pianist right now.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on May 24, 2018, 09:33:14 PM
David Jalbert?

My reference is also the Ashkenazy, ideal combination of performer & work imo. But I used to have the Hyperion Nikolayeva (as MP3 files ripped from a library CD) and it was about equally good, maybe somewhat too demonstrative for my taste.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on May 24, 2018, 11:03:03 PM
Quote from: Ken B on May 24, 2018, 09:01:28 PM
The better sound helps. I also found it more reflective. There's a lot of low-key stuff and I think that comes across better.

All this, I agree.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on May 25, 2018, 05:05:07 AM
The Hyperion set is the only one I own, and... I actually don't entirely like the sound and that's one of the reasons I'm considering getting a 2nd set. The acoustic is a bit distant for my taste.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2018, 10:28:08 AM
On March 24th we went to hear the Shostakovich Fourth in Symphony Hall.  (I am a little puzzled to find that I have not written of that evening, here on GMG?)  Anyway, maybe this is revisionism, but my impression (today) is that it was an amazing performance (back in March).  So when a promotional e-mail came in earlier this week announcing free shipping on pre-orders of the two-CD set of the Fourth and the Eleventh, at $22, I was corn to their sickle.  I placed the order today (expected to ship 10 July).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mahlerian on June 22, 2018, 10:49:27 AM
I left a report at the time:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,429.msg1137285.html#msg1137285
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2018, 10:55:44 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 22, 2018, 10:49:27 AM
I left a report at the time:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,429.msg1137285.html#msg1137285

I remember reading and enjoying it, thanks.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 22, 2018, 01:24:05 PM
I just heard DSCH's orchestration of Tahiti Trot today. Pretty amazing stuff that he orchestrated the thing in about 45 minutes and it is just SO Shostakovich like: the piccolo, e-flat clarinet, xylophone, muted trumpet all having a grand old time.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 22, 2018, 02:52:07 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 22, 2018, 01:24:05 PM
I just heard DSCH's orchestration of Tahiti Trot today. Pretty amazing stuff that he orchestrated the thing in about 45 minutes and it is just SO Shostakovich like: the piccolo, e-flat clarinet, xylophone, muted trumpet all having a grand old time.

Yes! It's great. Not sure which performance you heard, but Chailly's Jazz Album includes the Tahiti Trot, and the rest of the album is full of DSCH's colorful instrumentation.

Just purchased this live performance from Mravinsky/Leningrad Phil of the 10th Symphony. Anyone familiar with it?


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/513TlhiqrzL.jpg)

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 22, 2018, 05:51:33 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 22, 2018, 02:52:07 PM
Yes! It's great. Not sure which performance you heard, but Chailly's Jazz Album includes the Tahiti Trot, and the rest of the album is full of DSCH's colorful instrumentation.
I forgot the performers unfortunately.

I thought the announcer mentioned the Moscow Chamber Players but I can find it on Google right now.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on June 22, 2018, 10:41:07 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 22, 2018, 02:52:07 PM
Yes! It's great. Not sure which performance you heard, but Chailly's Jazz Album includes the Tahiti Trot, and the rest of the album is full of DSCH's colorful instrumentation.

Just purchased this live performance from Mravinsky/Leningrad Phil of the 10th Symphony. Anyone familiar with it?


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/513TlhiqrzL.jpg)

Yes, although haven't heard it for a while. I recall it as a fine performance as is usually the case with Mravinsky.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on June 27, 2018, 03:41:01 AM
New England Conservatory / Hugh Wolff - Symphony No. 11 in G minor, "The Year 1905"

My favourite appearance of it on Youtube. Those young people  :-* Also, very good video editing. The battle scene and the ending are a bit fast for me, but well, I love Haitink with the Concertgebouw and compared to many recordings those scenes have a slower pace there.

http://www.youtube.com/v/ED5-QGuxJs8
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on June 27, 2018, 06:28:39 AM
Quote from: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on June 27, 2018, 03:41:01 AM
New England Conservatory / Hugh Wolff - Symphony No. 11 in G minor, "The Year 1905"

My favourite appearance of it on Youtube. Those young people  :-* Also, very good video editing. The battle scene and the ending are a bit fast for me, but well, I love Haitink with the Concertgebouw and compared to many recordings those scenes have a slower pace there.

http://www.youtube.com/v/ED5-QGuxJs8

Young people do seem to nail this work.  My favorite live performance of No. 11 was Timothy Muffit conducting the University of Texas Symphony - a blazingly intense and terrifying experience.  I've since heard it maybe a dozen more times including the SFO/MTT but it was never as intense as that school performance.  Sadly, it wasn't recorded.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 09, 2018, 04:26:50 AM
This day in 1975, Shostakovich died.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 09, 2018, 06:49:39 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 09, 2018, 04:26:50 AM
This day in 1975, Shostakovich died.
And I can remember that sad day. RIP Dmitri.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on August 09, 2018, 11:10:29 AM
Rest in peace, Shosta.

As a homage, I'll listen to one of his apparently more optimistic works: the Piano Concerto No. 2.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51yGA1trV3L.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 03, 2018, 11:32:29 PM
Was in London last night to hear Andris Nelsons conduct Symphony No.4 with the Boston SO. It was a very polished and brilliantly played performance. My daughter, who had never heard the work, really liked it, especially the woodwind playing and the second movement. The doom-laden finale was very well realised.

In the first half was Bernstein's Serenade on Plato's Symposium which I'd never heard live. I especially liked the beautiful slow movement but, as a whole, prefer the 'Jeremiah Symphony', the 'Age of Anxiety' and 'Facsimile'.

Great concert.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 04, 2018, 12:52:38 AM
Terrific!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 04, 2018, 01:55:02 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 04, 2018, 12:52:38 AM
Terrific!
It was indeed Karl and here is a review of the concert:

https://bachtrack.com/review-prom-69-andris-nelsons-baiba-skride-boston-symphony-september-2018

And here is another one which I very much agree with:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/prom-69-review-boston-so-nelsons-at-the-royal-albert-hall-8s6xxkd02
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on September 08, 2018, 12:53:54 AM
Having recently acquired my final disc of the Petrenko/Liverpool symphony cycle, I'm now embarking on a playthrough of all 15 symphonies. I'll probably be able to complete it over the next three days, in seven sessions (1-3, then the rest in pairs).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on September 08, 2018, 01:27:15 AM
Does anyone have particular recommends for the Sonata No.2 in B minor, Op.61? Apart from Gilels on RCA which I already have and which is probably the reference recording. It's a piece I've been interested in for some time, especially for the magnificent closing theme and variations, one of Shostakovich's finest achievements.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 08, 2018, 02:39:05 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on September 08, 2018, 12:53:54 AM
Having recently acquired my final disc of the Petrenko/Liverpool symphony cycle, I'm now embarking on a playthrough of all 15 symphonies. I'll probably be able to complete it over the next three days, in seven sessions (1-3, then the rest in pairs).

I like his recordings on the whole. I also like the production with a photo of the conductor on the cardboard outer sleeve and the composer, usually at an appropriate age for the works featured on the disc, at the front of the booklet. I was very happy to hear Symphony 4 live at the Proms a week ago.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 08, 2018, 04:12:10 AM
Quote from: amw on September 08, 2018, 01:27:15 AM
Does anyone have particular recommends for the Sonata No.2 in B minor, Op.61? Apart from Gilels on RCA which I already have and which is probably the reference recording. It's a piece I've been interested in for some time, especially for the magnificent closing theme and variations, one of Shostakovich's finest achievements.

Curiously, I am not sure I have ever heard it.  (Which is not much of an answer, I know.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: North Star on September 08, 2018, 04:21:17 AM
Quote from: amw on September 08, 2018, 01:27:15 AM
Does anyone have particular recommends for the Sonata No.2 in B minor, Op.61? Apart from Gilels on RCA which I already have and which is probably the reference recording. It's a piece I've been interested in for some time, especially for the magnificent closing theme and variations, one of Shostakovich's finest achievements.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 08, 2018, 04:12:10 AM
Curiously, I am not sure I have ever heard it.  (Which is not much of an answer, I know.)
Well, you certainly ought to hear it, Karl. I only know the Ashkenazy recording from the Decca solo piano & chamber music box, but I'd imagine Berman, Donohoe, McLachlan, Nikolayeva, Petrushansky, and Scherbakov do a good job too..
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Ainsi la nuit on September 08, 2018, 05:12:27 AM
Quote from: amw on September 08, 2018, 01:27:15 AM
Does anyone have particular recommends for the Sonata No.2 in B minor, Op.61?

A pianist called Melvin Chen has recorded the piece, and it's a stunning interpretation. He also plays the 1st sonata, the Aphorisms and the Doll Dances on the same CD so there's plenty to dig into.

The 2nd sonata is one of my favourite piano pieces by Shostakovich - or by anyone! To this day it remains curiously unknown, I wonder why...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on September 08, 2018, 05:27:18 AM
Quote from: Ainsi la nuit on September 08, 2018, 05:12:27 AM
A pianist called Melvin Chen has recorded the piece, and it's a stunning interpretation. He also plays the 1st sonata, the Aphorisms and the Doll Dances on the same CD so there's plenty to dig into.
Thanks for the vote of confidence—he's already shortlisted along with Berman, Lubimov (which I already have but need to revisit), Mangova, McLachlan & Laul. I also have the Ashkenazy somewhere but remember finding it a bit too detached.

Quote
The 2nd sonata is one of my favourite piano pieces by Shostakovich - or by anyone! To this day it remains curiously unknown, I wonder why...
Probably because it's somewhat.... claustrophobic? Consistently dark & foreboding, with at times extremely stripped-down piano writing (often just one or two parts), a slow movement played at extremely soft dynamics throughout, and an obsessive concentration on diminished tetrachords looking forward to Shostakovich's later use of his nominal DSCH motive. It also sounds much easier to play than it actually is, something pianists dislike dealing with.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 08, 2018, 05:51:33 AM
Quote from: North Star on September 08, 2018, 04:21:17 AM
Well, you certainly ought to hear it, Karl. I only know the Ashkenazy recording from the Decca solo piano & chamber music box, but I'd imagine Berman, Donohoe, McLachlan, Nikolayeva, Petrushansky, and Scherbakov do a good job too..

Noted, dear fellow.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 08, 2018, 05:01:49 PM
Quote from: Ainsi la nuit on September 08, 2018, 05:12:27 AM
A pianist called Melvin Chen has recorded the piece, and it's a stunning interpretation. He also plays the 1st sonata, the Aphorisms and the Doll Dances on the same CD so there's plenty to dig into.

*takes notes*
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Klaze on September 09, 2018, 02:56:53 AM
I know it's not very helpful to recommend poorly available recordings but still I would just like to mention the live recording of the 2nd Sonata by Yuri Egorov, coupled with a very fine Prokofiev 8.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 09, 2018, 10:11:13 AM
Quote from: Klaze on September 09, 2018, 02:56:53 AM
I know it's not very helpful to recommend poorly available recordings but still I would just like to mention the live recording of the 2nd Sonata by Yuri Egorov, coupled with a very fine Prokofiev 8.

The Egorov is great. It's a live recording caught on the wing, with the occasional cough, and will never be mistaken for a commercial recording, but nothing is objectionable in the least sonics-wise. In compensation we get the opportunity to...well, to hear Egorov!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 26, 2018, 06:41:11 PM
Shocked that this thread skipped over Dmitri's birthday. Shocked I tell you!

Well here's Lenny discussing the 9th Symphony...

https://www.youtube.com/v/FVfz5YymsXI
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on September 27, 2018, 04:56:25 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 26, 2018, 06:41:11 PM
Shocked that this thread skipped over Dmitri's birthday. Shocked I tell you!

Yet remembered the day of his death. I guess they thought his death was more important than his birth. j/k
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 27, 2018, 05:04:26 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 26, 2018, 06:41:11 PM
Shocked that this thread skipped over Dmitri's birthday. Shocked I tell you!

We are in in disgrace.

This never happens in the Langgaard or Havergal Brian threads!  0:)    ;D    8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 27, 2018, 05:40:39 AM
Blame the Russian calendar change in 1918. It confused everybody.

Edit: Seriously, I've no idea what people typically did with their birthdays when the calendar shifted from Julian to Gregorian.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on September 27, 2018, 06:36:00 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 26, 2018, 06:41:11 PM
Shocked that this thread skipped over Dmitri's birthday. Shocked I tell you!

Shame on all of you.  I celebrated his birthday by listening to several of his symphonies and an interesting version of Symphony No. 11 for two pianos, but to the rest in this thread, shame.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 05, 2018, 01:18:06 PM

Just finished one of my labor-of-love discographies:

A Survey of Shostakovich String Quartet Cycles

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sTHWL9-17hU/W7e1s89d37I/AAAAAAAAKns/zb2DrgsORkYCajhx1l4Vu0R1_wpY_OXZQCLcBGAs/s1600/Shostakovich_old3_laurson_600.jpg)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/10/a-survey-of-shostakovich-string-quartet.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/10/a-survey-of-shostakovich-string-quartet.html)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 05, 2018, 07:57:16 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 05, 2018, 01:18:06 PM
Just finished one of my labor-of-love discographies:

A Survey of Shostakovich String Quartet Cycles

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sTHWL9-17hU/W7e1s89d37I/AAAAAAAAKns/zb2DrgsORkYCajhx1l4Vu0R1_wpY_OXZQCLcBGAs/s1600/Shostakovich_old3_laurson_600.jpg)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/10/a-survey-of-shostakovich-string-quartet.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/10/a-survey-of-shostakovich-string-quartet.html)

Nice reading! One small error I noticed is in your write-up at the bottom for the new Borodin/Decca set: in the second sentence, you note that the set includes the "piano quartet". But should be piano quintet. Just trying to be neighborly. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 05, 2018, 10:07:10 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on October 05, 2018, 07:57:16 PM
Nice reading! One small error I noticed is in your write-up at the bottom for the new Borodin/Decca set: in the second sentence, you note that the set includes the "piano quartet". But should be piano quintet. Just trying to be neighborly. :)

That's exactly the eagle-eyed reading and mistake-finding that I appreciate! Thanks. Fixed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 19, 2018, 03:08:49 AM
Following some discussion on the forum I found a cheap second-hand copy of this. I find it excellent and as deeply moving (especially the Largo) as any other performance I know. Brilliant recording as well. I'd rate this with the recordings by Previn (EMI version), Haitink, and Slatkin as a top version:
[asin]B00U6DW8T2[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 19, 2018, 03:48:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 19, 2018, 03:08:49 AM
Following some discussion on the forum I found a cheap second-hand copy of this. I find it excellent and as deeply moving (especially the Largo) as any other performance I know. Brilliant recording as well. I'd rate this with the recordings by Previn (EMI version), Haitink, and Slatkin as a top version:
[asin]B00U6DW8T2[/asin]

Excellent.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 19, 2018, 04:00:42 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 19, 2018, 03:48:50 AM
Excellent.
I didn't realise that after the symphony there is an extended rehearsal sequence which is interesting as Mariss Jansons expresses, to the orchestra, his thoughts on Shostakovich's 8th Symphony. He seems to have a nice relationship with the Pittsburgh SO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 24, 2018, 10:59:41 AM
This set contains one of the greatest performances I have heard of Shostakovich's Symphony 4. Worth having the set (which was very well reviewed in Gramophone a couple of months ago), for that alone. I managed to get an inexpensive second-hand copy of the box:
[asin]B07C5H8DPN[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: JBS on October 24, 2018, 05:53:12 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 24, 2018, 10:59:41 AM
This set contains one of the greatest performances I have heard of Shostakovich's Symphony 4. Worth having the set (which was very well reviewed in Gramophone a couple of months ago), for that alone. I managed to get an inexpensive second-hand copy of the box:
[asin]B07C5H8DPN[/asin]

Thank you for the tip. I just ordered it off Amazon MP.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 24, 2018, 09:36:19 PM
Quote from: JBS on October 24, 2018, 05:53:12 PM
Thank you for the tip. I just ordered it off Amazon MP.

Let us know what you think. Hope you enjoy it as much as I have.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 25, 2018, 12:42:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 24, 2018, 10:59:41 AM
This set contains one of the greatest performances I have heard of Shostakovich's Symphony 4. Worth having the set (which was very well reviewed in Gramophone a couple of months ago), for that alone. I managed to get an inexpensive second-hand copy of the box:


Never released individually, I take it?  >:(
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 25, 2018, 01:06:48 AM
Quote from: JBS on October 24, 2018, 05:53:12 PM
Thank you for the tip. I just ordered it off Amazon MP.

I keep telling myself I do not need another recording of the mighty Op. 43.

So I may hold off until the spring . . . .
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: JBS on October 25, 2018, 09:59:10 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 25, 2018, 01:06:48 AM
I keep telling myself I do not need another recording of the mighty Op. 43.

So I may hold off until the spring . . . .

It was not just for the DSCH
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61PFW6LrimL.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 25, 2018, 10:42:06 AM
Quote from: JBS on October 25, 2018, 09:59:10 AM
It was not just for the DSCH
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61PFW6LrimL.jpg)

Thanks! (I think . . .)

0:)  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on October 25, 2018, 04:22:25 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 25, 2018, 10:42:06 AM
Thanks! (I think . . .)

0:)  8)

Save your money...for now!  I didn't like it but might be thinking of a different recording! 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 26, 2018, 03:34:23 AM
Quote from: JBS on October 25, 2018, 09:59:10 AM
It was not just for the DSCH
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61PFW6LrimL.jpg)

The whole set does look enticing.

Quote from: relm1 on October 25, 2018, 04:22:25 PM
[...] I didn't like it but might be thinking of a different recording! 

Well, you are going to have to follow up, you know  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 26, 2018, 06:34:52 AM
I enjoyed the Mahler 10 from the set today although, unlike the Shostakovich, not a work I know well. I even listened to Beethoven's Symphony 8  :o

Which I enjoyed.

8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 26, 2018, 06:39:17 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 26, 2018, 06:34:52 AM
I enjoyed the Mahler 10 from the set today although, unlike the Shostakovich, not a work I know well. I even listened to Beethoven's Symphony 8  :o

Which I enjoyed.

8)

My expectation is, that it will prove worthwhile (though I still have to delay the expense).

Parenthetically, I have yet to listen to the entirety of the Mahler Tenth . . . I just find the first movement so exquisitely perfect.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 26, 2018, 03:52:36 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 26, 2018, 06:39:17 AM
My expectation is, that it will prove worthwhile (though I still have to delay the expense).

Parenthetically, I have yet to listen to the entirety of the Mahler Tenth . . . I just find the first movement so exquisitely perfect.

I very much agree about Mahler's 10th.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 20, 2018, 01:24:23 AM
A new recording of Symphony 8 (LSO Live, Noseda) is 'Album of the Week' in the Sunday Times:

'A graphic, questioning, ultimately despairing performance.'

Sounds just my cup of tea!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 08, 2019, 11:47:31 PM
The #Shostakovich String Quartet Cycle #Discography has been updated as I have been made aware of - and found - the @QuatuorDebussy's 1998-2004 cycle on Arion:


A Survey of Shostakovich String Quartet Cycles

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sTHWL9-17hU/W7e1s89d37I/AAAAAAAAKns/zb2DrgsORkYCajhx1l4Vu0R1_wpY_OXZQCLcBGAs/s1600/Shostakovich_old3_laurson_600.jpg)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/10/a-survey-of-shostakovich-string-quartet.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/10/a-survey-of-shostakovich-string-quartet.html)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on January 11, 2019, 04:03:34 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 20, 2018, 01:24:23 AM
A new recording of Symphony 8 (LSO Live, Noseda) is 'Album of the Week' in the Sunday Times:

'A graphic, questioning, ultimately despairing performance.'

Sounds just my cup of tea!

I just listened to this recording and don't find it as intense as Haitink's/RCO magnificent Decca recording. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 11, 2019, 04:11:49 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 11, 2019, 04:03:34 PM
I just listened to this recording and don't find it as intense as Haitink's/RCO magnificent Decca recording.

Difficult to beat Haitink in this symphony, IMHO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on January 11, 2019, 05:34:59 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 11, 2019, 04:11:49 PM
Difficult to beat Haitink in this symphony, IMHO.

+1, it's the most visceral and shattering one I know.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: JBS on January 11, 2019, 05:43:05 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on January 11, 2019, 05:34:59 PM
+1, it's the most visceral and shattering one I know.

Did you ever hear Rostropovich's 8th on LSOLive?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 11, 2019, 06:51:30 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on January 11, 2019, 05:34:59 PM
+1, it's the most visceral and shattering one I know.

Indeed. Also, as Jeffrey pointed out, the Rostropovich/LSO Live is very much worth a listen, too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on January 11, 2019, 11:19:03 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 11, 2019, 04:11:49 PM
Difficult to beat Haitink in this symphony, IMHO.
+1 and I was lucky enough to hear Haitink conduct it live in London. I haven't heard the new recording yet.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 12, 2019, 05:08:46 AM
Quote from: JBS on January 11, 2019, 05:43:05 PM
Did you ever hear Rostropovich's 8th on LSOLive?

I'm not that keen on that recording; never have been... and think that the Noseda is actually a nice improvement over it. For one, the extreme dynamics of that 8th mean that you can't properly listen to it at home without having to adjust the volume in between. The first movement's levels are absurdly low.

Then again, I'm still not convinced that on my copy, first batch, there was a technical glitch... because it is so pronounced.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2019, 06:35:37 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 11, 2019, 11:19:03 PM
+1 and I was lucky enough to hear Haitink conduct it live in London. I haven't heard the new recording yet.

Nice!  8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 12, 2019, 07:36:18 AM
And now for something completely different...

Caetani's cycle has been an interesting one to explore, some duds, some winners. His broad take on the 10th has become a constant on my player. And his 8th is an interesting one, which I'm becoming more and more pleased with. It's a speed demon though, Caetani's opening movement is at around 20 minutes compared to Rostropovich/LSO's over 26 minute take. Again, compare the final movement with Caetani at 13:20, and Rost at 16:14. Overall Caetani is 15 minutes faster, and that's a huge difference! The quickness here definitely offers a different sense of intensity, but they hit all the right notes, the climaxes are devastating and it carries an emotional impact that I believe makes it a true competitor in a busy market. 

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51yuK8OZFqL.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2019, 07:44:02 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 12, 2019, 07:36:18 AM
And now for something completely different...

Caetani's cycle has been an interesting one to explore, some duds, some winners. His broad take on the 10th has become a constant on my player. And his 8th is an interesting one, which I'm becoming more and more pleased with. It's a speed demon though, Caetani's opening movement is at around 20 minutes compared to Rostropovich/LSO's over 26 minute take. Again, compare the final movement with Caetani at 13:20, and Rost at 16:14. Overall Caetani is 15 minutes faster, and that's a huge difference! The quickness here definitely offers a different sense of intensity, but they hit all the right notes, the climaxes are devastating and it carries an emotional impact that I believe makes it a true competitor in a busy market. 

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51yuK8OZFqL.jpg)

That's a pretty good set overall, but my reference cycles are still Rozhdestvensky and Haitink. Caetani does get some interesting results. I recall enjoying his performance of the 11th.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on January 12, 2019, 11:37:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 12, 2019, 06:35:37 AM
Nice!  8)
It was indeed. I also saw Ashkenazy conduct it in Liverpool when I was a student in Lancaster in the both of England not too far away. It was a fine performance made even more memorable by a cat miaowing throughout the concert and the leader of the orchestra shredding his bow (it seemed to turn into cotton wool) during a crucial solo passage just before the end. He held the bow up to wild applause at the end of the performance.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on January 12, 2019, 03:59:56 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 12, 2019, 07:36:18 AM
And now for something completely different...

Caetani's cycle has been an interesting one to explore, some duds, some winners. His broad take on the 10th has become a constant on my player. And his 8th is an interesting one, which I'm becoming more and more pleased with. It's a speed demon though, Caetani's opening movement is at around 20 minutes compared to Rostropovich/LSO's over 26 minute take. Again, compare the final movement with Caetani at 13:20, and Rost at 16:14. Overall Caetani is 15 minutes faster, and that's a huge difference! The quickness here definitely offers a different sense of intensity, but they hit all the right notes, the climaxes are devastating and it carries an emotional impact that I believe makes it a true competitor in a busy market. 

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51yuK8OZFqL.jpg)

I get what you are saying but to me, part of the gem of Shostakovich is how be balances the intensity with the sarcasm and profound.  Too much intensity lacks gravitas and too much profound lacks intensity.  That is why you need someone in the middle like Haitink who is both searing, profound, lyrical, and witty.  It's a very tough balance that few nail better. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on January 12, 2019, 04:01:50 PM
Quote from: JBS on January 11, 2019, 05:43:05 PM
Did you ever hear Rostropovich's 8th on LSOLive?

Yes, I did, but I consider the Haitink more impressive, and I think the sonics in that recording give more atmosphere.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2019, 07:15:45 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 12, 2019, 11:37:15 AM
It was indeed. I also saw Ashkenazy conduct it in Liverpool when I was a student in Lancaster in the both of England not too far away. It was a fine performance made even more memorable by a cat miaowing throughout the concert and the leader of the orchestra shredding his bow (it seemed to turn into cotton wool) during a crucial solo passage just before the end. He held the bow up to wild applause at the end of the performance.

8) Quite a memorable concert, indeed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on January 12, 2019, 11:49:17 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 12, 2019, 07:15:45 PM
8) Quite a memorable concert, indeed.

It was John and I meant 'North' not 'both' of England!  ::)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 13, 2019, 06:44:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 12, 2019, 11:49:17 PM
It was John and I meant 'North' not 'both' of England!  ::)

:laugh:
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 13, 2019, 07:43:09 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 12, 2019, 07:15:45 PM
8) Quite a memorable concert, indeed.

Hoy, John!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 13, 2019, 07:54:38 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 13, 2019, 07:43:09 AM
Hoy, John!

Hello, Karl! Good to see you're on GMG and doing well. I was worried about you (as were many others here and elsewhere).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 13, 2019, 07:59:34 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 13, 2019, 08:01:01 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 13, 2019, 07:59:34 AM
Thanks!

My pleasure. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Overtones on March 18, 2019, 07:56:11 AM
I've stumbled upon this wonderful, harrowing piece:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM0dB4b8daI

"Prelude for two cellos and piano"

However, I struggle to find consolidated info on this work. It's not even on IMSLP...?

Any help?

Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: kyjo on March 18, 2019, 02:29:37 PM
Quote from: Overtones on March 18, 2019, 07:56:11 AM
I've stumbled upon this wonderful, harrowing piece:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM0dB4b8daI

"Prelude for two cellos and piano"

However, I struggle to find consolidated info on this work. It's not even on IMSLP...?

Any help?

Thanks a lot.

It's a beautiful little piece indeed. As far as I know, it's an arrangement of the the first movement of the "5 Pieces for 2 Violins and Piano", which is, in turn, an arrangement by Lev Atovmian of 5 various short pieces with the composer's sanction. Additionally, I believe the "Prelude" in question is derived from his film score to "The Gadfly". Confusing, I know!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 18, 2019, 04:31:34 PM
This is clearly from Gadfly which features so much gorgeous music. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 18, 2019, 06:54:06 PM
Quote from: kyjo on March 18, 2019, 02:29:37 PM
It's a beautiful little piece indeed. As far as I know, it's an arrangement of the the first movement of the "5 Pieces for 2 Violins and Piano", which is, in turn, an arrangement by Lev Atovmian of 5 various short pieces with the composer's sanction. Additionally, I believe the "Prelude" in question is derived from his film score to "The Gadfly". Confusing, I know!
Thanks!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Overtones on March 18, 2019, 10:46:54 PM
Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on March 19, 2019, 03:54:11 AM
Original is for guitar iirc.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on June 07, 2019, 10:29:54 AM
(Also posted in WAYLT thread)

Listening to 22-year-old violinist Hao Zhou, who just won the top prize at the Concours musical international de Montréal.

Here he is in the final round, with the Orchestre symphonique de Montréal and conductor Alexander Shelley, in Shostakovich Violin Concerto No.1.

https://youtu.be/XX71-b2EVG4

Link to article in The Strad:

https://www.thestrad.com/news/hao-zhou-wins-montreal-violin-competition/9068.article

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on July 11, 2019, 11:54:23 PM
The Leningrad Symphony is not by any stretch my favourite piece of music, but here's a recent impassioned rendition by the SWR SO under the waving arms of Teodor Currentzis, as a video stream.  It was recorded on June 28th 2019.  The same performance can also be found on YouTube, but the link below is to the SWR site, where the sound quality is certainly very good.

https://www.swr.de/swrclassic/symphonieorchester/Teodor-Currentzis-dirigiert-Schostakowitschs-Siebte,av-o1133219-100.html (https://www.swr.de/swrclassic/symphonieorchester/Teodor-Currentzis-dirigiert-Schostakowitschs-Siebte,av-o1133219-100.html)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 18, 2019, 05:07:17 AM
I was both foolishly dismissive and underexposed to Shosty's music as a whole for many years; having listened to and found the Kammermusik too often histrionically morose, even morbid and tiresome. I listened only to the 4th symphony with any kind of ear and found that unsatisfactory as well...

I was deep into the writing of my own symphonies when I took a chance on the "Shostakovich Great Symphonies" compilation and once again not being wild about the 4th (and outright mortified by the 7th) I hit the 8th and everything changed; now HERE is a great symphony with so much to be gained upon repeated listenings! I went crazy reading up on and listening to it over and over again.

My next loves came in the form of #s 10, 11, 13, and 15. Those convinced me Shosty was undisputedly a truly great symphonist, at times capable of great feeling and supernaturally cool orchestration and counterpoint.

I soon after went cuckoo over Violin Concerto no 2, and am looking forward to trying out symphs 1, 2, 3, 6, 9, 12, and 14. I even went further nutso and bought the more recent Petrenko recordings, and am waiting on a Barshai cycle as we speak.

I wonder if I was meant to discover this great composer right at this point in time; a horrible last five years had left me uninspired and full of depression and angst. Shostakovich helped me out of that.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 18, 2019, 11:19:14 AM
(in a small voice): also, hello everyone!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on July 18, 2019, 11:29:51 AM
Quote from: Andy D. on July 18, 2019, 11:19:14 AM
(in a small voice): also, hello everyone!

Feel free to use a larger voice, and welcome back!

And glad you had a Shostakovich epiphany. I mean, no one has to like any composer (including the usual suspects), but his voice and struggle resonate deeply with many, especially now.

Glad his music helped you find a better place -- that's a high rec.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 18, 2019, 11:54:29 AM
Quote from: Brewski on July 18, 2019, 11:29:51 AM
Feel free to use a larger voice, and welcome back!

And glad you had a Shostakovich epiphany. I mean, no one has to like any composer (including the usual suspects), but his voice and struggle resonate deeply with many, especially now.

Glad his music helped you find a better place -- that's a high rec.

--Bruce
+1
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 18, 2019, 12:10:48 PM
Quote from: Brewski on July 18, 2019, 11:29:51 AM
Feel free to use a larger voice, and welcome back!

And glad you had a Shostakovich epiphany. I mean, no one has to like any composer (including the usual suspects), but his voice and struggle resonate deeply with many, especially now.

Glad his music helped you find a better place -- that's a high rec.

--Bruce

I read that sometimes starting old hobbies back up again, discovering new ones, etc. could help a person get out of the doldrums after a massively negative life experience. Well, for me it was actually listening to Shostakovich and watching old boxing matches (not sure how or if the two intersect, don't care...in the words of the immortally bald Hunter: "it works for me!)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2019, 12:13:28 PM
Quote from: Andy D. on July 18, 2019, 05:07:17 AM
I was both foolishly dismissive and underexposed to Shosty's music as a whole for many years; having listened to and found the Kammermusik too often histrionically morose, even morbid and tiresome. I listened only to the 4th symphony with any kind of ear and found that unsatisfactory as well...

I was deep into the writing of my own symphonies when I took a chance on the "Shostakovich Great Symphonies" compilation and once again not being wild about the 4th (and outright mortified by the 7th) I hit the 8th and everything changed; now HERE is a great symphony with so much to be gained upon repeated listenings! I went crazy reading up on and listening to it over and over again.

My next loves came in the form of #s 10, 11, 13, and 15. Those convinced me Shosty was undisputedly a truly great symphonist, at times capable of great feeling and supernaturally cool orchestration and counterpoint.

I soon after went cuckoo over Violin Concerto no 2, and am looking forward to trying out symphs 1, 2, 3, 6, 9, 12, and 14. I even went further nutso and bought the more recent Petrenko recordings, and am waiting on a Barshai cycle as we speak.

I wonder if I was meant to discover this great composer right at this point in time; a horrible last five years had left me uninspired and full of depression and angst. Shostakovich helped me out of that.

Completely delighted to read this!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on July 18, 2019, 04:53:33 PM
Quote from: Andy D. on July 18, 2019, 05:07:17 AM
I was both foolishly dismissive and underexposed to Shosty's music as a whole for many years; having listened to and found the Kammermusik too often histrionically morose, even morbid and tiresome. I listened only to the 4th symphony with any kind of ear and found that unsatisfactory as well...

I was deep into the writing of my own symphonies when I took a chance on the "Shostakovich Great Symphonies" compilation and once again not being wild about the 4th (and outright mortified by the 7th) I hit the 8th and everything changed; now HERE is a great symphony with so much to be gained upon repeated listenings! I went crazy reading up on and listening to it over and over again.

My next loves came in the form of #s 10, 11, 13, and 15. Those convinced me Shosty was undisputedly a truly great symphonist, at times capable of great feeling and supernaturally cool orchestration and counterpoint.

I soon after went cuckoo over Violin Concerto no 2, and am looking forward to trying out symphs 1, 2, 3, 6, 9, 12, and 14. I even went further nutso and bought the more recent Petrenko recordings, and am waiting on a Barshai cycle as we speak.

I wonder if I was meant to discover this great composer right at this point in time; a horrible last five years had left me uninspired and full of depression and angst. Shostakovich helped me out of that.

The 8th is a firm favorite of mine, too! In spite of its overwhelming bleakness and pessimism, it's consistently satisfying throughout, continuing the desolation found in the 4th Symphony (which I also adore), curiously in the same key, and it has one of the most brilliant Scherzos (3rd movement) I know in symphonies. The 12th has drawn my attention lately after I attended a concert of it. It's a blast! It shouldn't deserve the reputation it has. I find it thrilling and pensive in the quiet parts.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 18, 2019, 06:18:33 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on July 18, 2019, 04:53:33 PM
The 8th is a firm favorite of mine, too! In spite of its overwhelming bleakness and pessimism, it's consistently satisfying throughout, continuing the desolation found in the 4th Symphony (which I also adore), curiously in the same key, and it has one of the most brilliant Scherzos (3rd movement) I know in symphonies. The 12th has drawn my attention lately after I attended a concert of it. It's a blast! It shouldn't deserve the reputation it has. I find it thrilling and pensive in the quiet parts.
Super post! The eighth was my gateway drug, and since I've been thrilled by 10, 11, 13, and 15. Really looking forward to the 12th now.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on July 19, 2019, 06:15:18 AM
Quote from: Andy D. on July 18, 2019, 06:18:33 PM
Super post! The eighth was my gateway drug, and since I've been thrilled by 10, 11, 13, and 15. Really looking forward to the 12th now.

The 12th is very bombastic (even by Shosti's standards) but also good fun.  I quite love the Haitink/Royal Concertgebouw recording.  It's also very good live.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on July 19, 2019, 06:46:43 AM
I'm happy to give the 12th a miss along with the 2nd and 3rd (and, if I'm honest, the 4th and 7th).

However I'll give a shout out for the 1st symphony which I feel is often under-rated in these parts.  I've loved it ever since I first heard it in about 1962 when I was 14yo.  That was the famous recording by Ormandy, coupled with the premiere recording of the 1st Cello Concerto all on one very classy LP. 
Although the 1st sometimes seems a bit uncharacteristic when set beside the later symphonies, for a recording that gives it the maximum of gravitas try Wigglesworth.  For a version that makes it more of a youthful romp, try Caetani.  Ormandy sits nicely in between, and I regularly listen to one or other of those three.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2019, 07:19:34 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 19, 2019, 06:46:43 AM
I'm happy to give the 12th a miss along with the 2nd and 3rd (and, if I'm honest, the 4th and 7th).

However I'll give a shout out for the 1st symphony which I feel is often under-rated in these parts.  I've loved it ever since I first heard it in about 1962 when I was 14yo.  That was the famous recording by Ormandy, coupled with the premiere recording of the 1st Cello Concerto all on one very classy LP. 
Although the 1st sometimes seems a bit uncharacteristic when set beside the later symphonies, for a recording that gives it the maximum of gravitas try Wigglesworth.  For a version that makes it more of a youthful romp, try Caetani.  Ormandy sits nicely in between, and I regularly listen to one or other of those three.
I rate No.1 highly as well. I love the ending which has me on the edge of my seat. I think that he may have been influenced by his teacher Maximilian Steinberg's Second Symphony in its use of the orchestral piano. No.12 is a bit of a guilty pleasure. I always associate it with clips of Eisenstein's film 'October' although it was not the original score. I've just ordered the Rodzinski version of No.8 which is another favourite. I heard Haitink give a marvellous performance of it at the Proms in my youth as well as Ashkenazy in Liverpool.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 20, 2019, 01:17:01 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 19, 2019, 07:19:34 AM
I rate No.1 highly as well. I love the ending which has me on the edge of my seat. I think that he may have been influenced by his teacher Maximilian Steinberg's Second Symphony in its use of the orchestral piano. No.12 is a bit of a guilty pleasure. I always associate it with clips of Eisenstein's film 'October' although it was not the original score. I've just ordered the Rodzinski version of No.8 which is another favourite. I heard Haitink give a marvellous performance of it at the Proms in my youth as well as Ashkenazy in Liverpool.

I've heard some terrific things about Haitink's Shosty.

I've been enjoying the Petrenko lately, especially his 10th and 11th. I discovered the 9th for the first time last night as conducted by him and was completely CHARMED!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 20, 2019, 01:55:31 AM
Quote from: Andy D. on July 20, 2019, 01:17:01 AM
I've heard some terrific things about Haitink's Shosty.

I've been enjoying the Petrenko lately, especially his 10th and 11th. I discovered the 9th for the first time last night as conducted by him and was completely CHARMED!
My brother's brother in law, who lives in Liverpool, rates the Petrenko set very highly. I'm very happy with the Haitink set. As with his performance of Vaughan Williams's 'A Sea Symphony' his recording of Shostakovich's Symphony 13 'Babi-Yar' was a revelation to me and a most moving experience (especially as I visited the site of Babi Yar in Kyiv a couple of years ago). I much prefer this cover image to the more modernist one of the later reissues:
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 20, 2019, 04:16:19 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 20, 2019, 01:55:31 AM
My brother's brother in law, who lives in Liverpool, rates the Petrenko set very highly. I'm very happy with the Haitink set. As with his performance of Vaughan Williams's 'A Sea Symphony' his recording of Shostakovich's Symphony 13 'Babi-Yar' was a revelation to me and a most moving experience (especially as I visited the site of Babi Yar in Kyiv a couple of years ago). I much prefer this cover image to the more modernist one of the later reissues:
(//)

I love 13!!! Gotsta check out the Haitink.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on July 20, 2019, 06:39:18 AM
My favorite 13 is CBSO/Okko Kamu.  Very strong playing, deep rich bass soloist, great chorus, but very hard to find anywhere....not just online, even in my home, I don't know where the CD is.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 20, 2019, 01:29:14 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 20, 2019, 06:39:18 AM
My favorite 13 is CBSO/Okko Kamu.  Very strong playing, deep rich bass soloist, great chorus, but very hard to find anywhere....not just online, even in my home, I don't know where the CD is.
Interesting. Never heard of that recording. I like Kamu's Sibelius recordings.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 20, 2019, 01:29:56 PM
Quote from: Andy D. on July 20, 2019, 04:16:19 AM
I love 13!!! Gotsta check out the Haitink.
Definitely Andy! It's very special I think.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on July 20, 2019, 03:52:21 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 20, 2019, 01:29:14 PM
Interesting. Never heard of that recording. I like Kamu's Sibelius recordings.

It's really fantastic.  Don't know why it is so hard to find.  Kamu would have produced a great cycle especially with CBSO.  Oh what might have been.
https://www.discogs.com/Shostakovich-City-Of-Birmingham-Symphony-Orchestra-Okko-Kamu-Symphony-No13-Op113-Babi-Yar/release/11488310
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Biffo on July 21, 2019, 02:22:37 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 20, 2019, 03:52:21 PM
It's really fantastic.  Don't know why it is so hard to find.  Kamu would have produced a great cycle especially with CBSO.  Oh what might have been.
https://www.discogs.com/Shostakovich-City-Of-Birmingham-Symphony-Orchestra-Okko-Kamu-Symphony-No13-Op113-Babi-Yar/release/11488310

I see you are located in California so perhaps it is difficult to find in the USA. In the UK the recording can be obtained as a lossless download from Chandos or, to order, as a CDR. In other words, the CD is no longer available though there is a new one for sale on Amazon UK (and several used copies).

https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%208540
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on July 21, 2019, 05:48:53 AM
I'm genuinely surprised by the outright apathy towards the 12th Symphony.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on July 21, 2019, 06:20:49 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on July 21, 2019, 05:48:53 AM
I'm genuinely surprised by the outright apathy towards the 12th Symphony.

Do you know what "outright apathy" means?  I literally said the 12th "is good fun.  I quite love the Haitink/Royal Concertgebouw recording.  It's also very good live."
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 21, 2019, 07:05:55 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on July 21, 2019, 05:48:53 AM
I'm genuinely surprised by the outright apathy towards the 12th Symphony.

I remember singing the praise of the old Leipzig Gewandhaus recording on Phillips coupled with an excellent Execution of Stenka Razin..... no apathy here!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 21, 2019, 09:47:09 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 21, 2019, 07:05:55 AM
I remember singing the praise of the old Leipzig Gewandhaus recording on Phillips coupled with an excellent Execution of Stenka Razin..... no apathy here!
+1 my first encounter with the work.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 21, 2019, 12:16:32 PM
I'm looking forward to the 12th now :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on July 21, 2019, 11:04:02 PM
It's like the 11th with all the good bits taken out.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on July 21, 2019, 11:12:04 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 21, 2019, 07:05:55 AM
I remember singing the praise of the old Leipzig Gewandhaus recording on Phillips coupled with an excellent Execution of Stenka Razin..... no apathy here!

Is that the one with on LP a cannon on the cover? Cannot recall the conductor who was not typical for a DSCH symphony.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 21, 2019, 11:27:24 PM
Quote from: Irons on July 21, 2019, 11:12:04 PM
Is that the one with on LP a cannon on the cover? Cannot recall the conductor who was not typical for a DSCH symphony.
This is the CD version I have Lol. Never had the LP. I wouldn't have associated him (Herbert Kegel) with Britten's War Requiem either but have really enjoyed his recently released performance. I think he conducted the extract from Orff's Carmina Burana used in the film 'Excalibur' (one of my favourite films, especially for Nicol Williamson's extraordinary performance as Merlin), which is probably where I first came across his name:

(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 21, 2019, 11:40:15 PM
Quote from: Irons on July 21, 2019, 11:12:04 PM
Is that the one with on LP a cannon on the cover? Cannot recall the conductor who was not typical for a DSCH symphony.

Yes indeed I remember the LP (for some reason Universo pops into my mind as the sub-set of Phillips) had a canon on it.  Kegel - as mentioned by Vandermolen does "Stenka Razin" but you are also right in saying the symphony conductor was unusual/otherwise unknown - Ogan Durjan
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on July 22, 2019, 02:53:27 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/Gm8AOSPoIgXDFnVwdc9zOltHBes=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-4130366-1532264560-9198.jpeg.jpg)

Saya it all really.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 22, 2019, 04:21:39 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 22, 2019, 02:53:27 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/Gm8AOSPoIgXDFnVwdc9zOltHBes=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-4130366-1532264560-9198.jpeg.jpg)

Saya it all really.
Another nostalgia trip!
:)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 22, 2019, 04:41:27 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 22, 2019, 04:21:39 AM
Another nostalgia trip!
:)

I don't know whether to be pleased or slightly disturbed by the fact that my brain chooses to remember "Universo" after about 40 years.  When I think of all the things I don't remember why on earth does that utterly pointless fact get squirreled away!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 22, 2019, 06:38:08 AM
Only, I think all the bits of the Eleventh are good.

I enjoy the Twelfth, only there are 14 Shostakovich symphonies I enjoy even more.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on July 22, 2019, 07:34:17 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 22, 2019, 02:53:27 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/Gm8AOSPoIgXDFnVwdc9zOltHBes=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-4130366-1532264560-9198.jpeg.jpg)

Saya it all really.

That's the one!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on July 22, 2019, 07:43:19 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 21, 2019, 11:27:24 PM
This is the CD version I have Lol. Never had the LP. I wouldn't have associated him (Herbert Kegel) with Britten's War Requiem either but have really enjoyed his recently released performance. I think he conducted the extract from Orff's Carmina Burana used in the film 'Excalibur' (one of my favourite films, especially for Nicol Williamson's extraordinary performance as Merlin), which is probably where I first came across his name:

(//)

Nicol Williamson! That is a blast from the past Jeffrey. A hero of mine as he was super-cool before the word "cool" was invented. The one film that I remember him for is "Inadmissible Evidence".
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 22, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
Quote from: Irons on July 22, 2019, 07:43:19 AM
Nicol Williamson! That is a blast from the past Jeffrey. A hero of mine as he was super-cool before the word "cool" was invented. The one film that I remember him for is "Inadmissible Evidence".
OT
He was also excellent as a drugged-up Sherlock Holmes to Alan Arkin's impressive Sigmund Freud in 'The Seven Percent Solution'. The film is also noteworthy for the most bizarre English accent from Robert Duvall as Dr Watson. I must look out for 'Inadmissable Evidence'. You must see 'Excalibur' Lol if you don't know it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 22, 2019, 09:34:48 AM
Quote from: Irons on July 22, 2019, 07:34:17 AM
That's the one!

Most curiously, I was thinking, as I listened to the first movement just now, how Shostakovich seemed to take the 1812 Overture as almost a template.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 22, 2019, 10:00:27 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 22, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
OT
He was also excellent as a drugged-up Sherlock Holmes to Alan Arkin's impressive Sigmund Freud in 'The Seven Percent Solution'. The film is also noteworthy for the most bizarre English accent from Robert Duvall as Dr Watson. I must look out for 'Inadmissable Evidence'. You must see 'Excalibur' Lol if you don't know it.

I have Excalibur on Blu-ray.  Love that film..... the actor doing King Arthur has a very odd Mummerset accent but great seeing the likes of Liam Neeson and Patrick Stewart in bit-part roles.  Helen Mirren is a very sexy Morgana.  But using Siegfried's Funeral Music at the end when excalibur is thrown to the Lady of the Lake it utter pure theatrical/cinematic genius.  I remember being absolutely knocked out by that sequence in the cinema........ at a time when I hadn't got a clue that it was Wagner being used.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 22, 2019, 10:57:27 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 22, 2019, 10:00:27 AM
I have Excalibur on Blu-ray.  Love that film..... the actor doing King Arthur has a very odd Mummerset accent but great seeing the likes of Liam Neeson and Patrick Stewart in bit-part roles.  Helen Mirren is a very sexy Morgana.  But using Siegfried's Funeral Music at the end when excalibur is thrown to the Lady of the Lake it utter pure theatrical/cinematic genius.  I remember being absolutely knocked out by that sequence in the cinema........ at a time when I hadn't got a clue that it was Wagner being used.
Having the Blu-Ray must be good. I saw it at the cinema too. My friend identified it as Wagner at the time. There is a very interesting documentary about the making of Excalibur. It was made many years ago but only recently found a distributor. Yes, the ending is very powerful. I got in contact with the actor who played Sir Percival and had a nice response from him. He said that the months filming Excalibur in Ireland were amongst the happiest of his career and gave an account of Nicol Williamson arranging a characteristic drinking binge to celebrate his (Sir Percival's) marriage. The music composed by Trevor Jones for the film is good too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on July 23, 2019, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 22, 2019, 06:38:08 AM
I enjoy the Twelfth, only there are 14 Shostakovich symphonies I enjoy even more.

In my case it's the 14th Symphony the one I enjoy the least.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 23, 2019, 11:19:53 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on July 23, 2019, 07:48:03 PM
In my case it's the 14th Symphony the one I enjoy the least.
+1
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Daverz on July 24, 2019, 12:20:32 AM
Well, I'm not often in the mood for 11 songs about death, but when I am, Symphony No. 14 really hits the spot.

(https://img.discogs.com/yOhX0Gb7veN8j-C26Td4gnfO8xg=/fit-in/600x589/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-4047069-1358019131-2648.jpeg.jpg)

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 24, 2019, 01:01:13 AM
The 14th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 12th have yet to be heard by me.

Lately I'm having the hardest time dragging myself away from this recording. The 8th is easily my favorite Shost symphony...I so love how it yields rewards with each, careful listen. I love this symphony (and am a big fan of 10, 11, 13, and 15 as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 24, 2019, 09:24:07 AM
Quote from: Daverz on July 24, 2019, 12:20:32 AM
Well, I'm not often in the mood for 11 songs about death, but when I am, Symphony No. 14 really hits the spot.

(https://img.discogs.com/yOhX0Gb7veN8j-C26Td4gnfO8xg=/fit-in/600x589/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-4047069-1358019131-2648.jpeg.jpg)
I must listen to it again. For years I didn't appreciate No.13 'Babi Yar' but now it is one of my favourites.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 24, 2019, 01:12:23 PM
Quote from: Daverz on July 24, 2019, 12:20:32 AM
Well, I'm not often in the mood for 11 songs about death, but when I am, Symphony No. 14 really hits the spot.

(https://img.discogs.com/yOhX0Gb7veN8j-C26Td4gnfO8xg=/fit-in/600x589/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-4047069-1358019131-2648.jpeg.jpg)



"O Delvig, Delvig!" is top-shelf Shostakovich
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on July 25, 2019, 06:00:12 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 22, 2019, 09:34:48 AM
Most curiously, I was thinking, as I listened to the first movement just now, how Shostakovich seemed to take the 1812 Overture as almost a template.

At first pass, Shosti seems quite removed from the Russian tradition but in closer examination, Tchaikovsky shows up quite a bit in his works.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 25, 2019, 06:03:37 AM
I've heard my favorite and already deeply loved (the 8th) as performed by Barshai (very good) and Mravinsky (YAYYYY!), but am looking forward to checking out the Kondrashian, Jarvi, those Russian dudes (laughing).

This symphony has become an all time great for me.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on July 25, 2019, 04:15:36 PM
Quote from: Andy D. on July 25, 2019, 06:03:37 AM
I've heard my favorite and already deeply loved (the 8th) as performed by Barshai (very good) and Mravinsky (YAYYYY!), but am looking forward to checking out the Kondrashian, Jarvi, those Russian dudes (laughing).

This symphony has become an all time great for me.

I've heard all those but still prefer Haitink, but yes Barshai is a great cycle and of course Mravinsky/Kondrashian is worthy of hearing his authentic perspective.  Jarvi is solid but doesn't kick off these others from the top of the pyramid.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on July 25, 2019, 04:19:19 PM
Folks, what is your favorite No. 11?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 25, 2019, 04:53:09 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 25, 2019, 04:19:19 PM
Folks, what is your favorite No. 11?

The Rostropovich live with the LSO:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/aug11/shost11rostropovich.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 25, 2019, 05:13:17 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 25, 2019, 04:19:19 PM
Folks, what is your favorite No. 11?
I only know the Barshai and Retrepko and definitely favor the former. I love the 11th.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 25, 2019, 05:15:57 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 25, 2019, 04:53:09 PM
The Rostropovich live with the LSO:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/aug11/shost11rostropovich.jpg)


Sarge

Well, and I should listen to that one.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on July 25, 2019, 05:56:49 PM
Haitink, Kitaenko and Rozhdestvensky conduct the 11th with grandiloquence, but Haitink (Decca) ranks higher for me. I never cared for the Kondrashin. His tempos are a bit fast for my taste and the sound engineering doesn't convince me either.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: JBS on July 25, 2019, 07:20:29 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 25, 2019, 04:53:09 PM
The Rostropovich live with the LSO:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/aug11/shost11rostropovich.jpg)


Sarge

очень верно!!

Also the Eighth from the same combination. But not the 5th.  Nor, truth told, most of the other DSCH recordings conducted by Slava I have heard, with the exception of Lady Macbeth of Mtensk.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 25, 2019, 10:23:56 PM
I like these two but also versions conducted by Kondrashin, Kitajenko and John Pritchard (I was actually at that concert):

(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on July 26, 2019, 12:37:32 AM
De Preist / Helsinki PO

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81-69kFe3WL._SY450_.jpg)


[edited to add - WOO-HOO! - 100 pages up on this DSCH thread!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 26, 2019, 03:26:55 AM
Has anyone listened to / compared the different recordings of The Golden Age?

I'm aware of 2* full recordings (plenty more of suites but I'm currently more interested in the full deal).

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71upkcjcCYL._SX425_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51nsnHG%2Bk2L.jpg)

*Actually I think there's a third (Yuri Simonov and the Bolshoi), but the applause in what appears to a be a live stage performance is very intrusive.

PS For the other ballets, as far as I'm aware Rozhdestvensky is the only person who has recorded them in full?

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 26, 2019, 03:38:49 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 26, 2019, 03:26:55 AM
Has anyone listened to / compared the different recordings of The Golden Age?

I'm aware of 2* full recordings (plenty more of suites but I'm currently more interested in the full deal).

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71upkcjcCYL._SX425_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51nsnHG%2Bk2L.jpg)

*Actually I think there's a third (Yuri Simonov and the Bolshoi), but the applause in what appears to a be a live stage performance is very intrusive.

PS For the other ballets, as far as I'm aware Rozhdestvensky is the only person who has recorded them in full?

Personally I'd go for the Serebrier.  Much as I love Rozhdestvensky I think Serebrier is better here.  Simonov is an absolute non-contender - as you say a very noisy audience and poor recording to boot.  Rozhdestevensky has no competition for the complete Bolt (a shame) and Limpid stream (although most of this pitches up in the various ballet suites - check out Maxim Shostakovich's old recording of them for something suitably Soviet!)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Biffo on July 26, 2019, 04:04:51 AM
There is an excellent DVD of The Bolt from the Bolshoi Ballet. The production is clever and at times hilariously funny. I am not sure if it was the composer's intention but the devil gets all the best tunes with the various decadents and malcontents getting the best scenes. The concluding pageant celebrating Soviet industry is very inventive but outstays its welcome for me.

I rarely watch ballet but had to have this one after seeing it broadcast on TV>

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bolt-Bolshoi-Ballet-DVD-Shostakovich/dp/B000NVL4MY/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=shostakovich+the+bolt&qid=1564142162&s=dvd&sr=1-1
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on July 26, 2019, 09:50:09 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 25, 2019, 04:19:19 PM
Folks, what is your favorite No. 11?

I do like Rostropovich and De Preist (the latter in exceptional sound), and like Jeffrey, I saw Pritchard live, back in the day.

But Haitink still gets my top vote. His implacable rhythmic tread, the Concertgebouw's terrific percussion section, and Decca's stunning sound -- all seal the deal.

PS, the first time I ever heard No. 11 was a live radio broadcast in the 1980s, with...(wait for it)...Leonard Slatkin and St. Louis! He gets no love in some circles, but however it happened, he and the orchestra turned me on to the piece.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 26, 2019, 09:55:01 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 26, 2019, 03:38:49 AM
Personally I'd go for the Serebrier.  Much as I love Rozhdestvensky I think Serebrier is better here.  Simonov is an absolute non-contender - as you say a very noisy audience and poor recording to boot.  Rozhdestevensky has no competition for the complete Bolt (a shame) and Limpid stream (although most of this pitches up in the various ballet suites - check out Maxim Shostakovich's old recording of them for something suitably Soviet!)

Serebrier, yes.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 26, 2019, 11:53:04 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 24, 2019, 01:12:23 PM
"O Delvig, Delvig!" is top-shelf Shostakovich

And, to be sure, the invogorating Malagueña

http://www.youtube.com/v/v5KMBeKgGr8
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 26, 2019, 12:27:43 PM
At this point the Mravinsky 8th is ruling my world... But I've only heard that and the Barshai.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 26, 2019, 01:10:07 PM
Quote from: Andy D. on July 26, 2019, 12:27:43 PM
At this point the Mravinsky 8th is ruling my world... But I've only heard that and the Barshai.

My own view is that if you find a version you love, you don't need to go looking for others.

This is not, however, a regular GMG approach.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 26, 2019, 05:31:17 PM
Quote from: Madiel on July 26, 2019, 01:10:07 PM
My own view is that if you find a version you love, you don't need to go looking for others.

This is not, however, a regular GMG approach.
I love hearing manifold recordings of a piece I like so I think I fit in. I have eight entire Ring cycles.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 26, 2019, 05:54:58 PM
Quote from: Andy D. on July 26, 2019, 05:31:17 PM
I love hearing manifold recordings of a piece I like so I think I fit in. I have eight entire Ring cycles.

You should be fine here.  ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 26, 2019, 09:48:18 PM
Quote from: Brewski on July 26, 2019, 09:50:09 AM
I do like Rostropovich and De Preist (the latter in exceptional sound), and like Jeffrey, I saw Pritchard live, back in the day.

But Haitink still gets my top vote. His implacable rhythmic tread, the Concertgebouw's terrific percussion section, and Decca's stunning sound -- all seal the deal.

PS, the first time I ever heard No. 11 was a live radio broadcast in the 1980s, with...(wait for it)...Leonard Slatkin and St. Louis! He gets no love in some circles, but however it happened, he and the orchestra turned me on to the piece.

--Bruce
Good to know that you were at the Pritchard concert as well Bruce. Did you get the CD of that excellent performance? I remember sitting in the Choir seats behind the percussion, which was very exciting.
Jeffrey
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on July 27, 2019, 07:51:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 26, 2019, 09:48:18 PM
Good to know that you were at the Pritchard concert as well Bruce. Did you get the CD of that excellent performance? I remember sitting in the Choir seats behind the percussion, which was very exciting.
Jeffrey
(//)

I did! Memory is foggy, but may have been one of those CDs included with BBC Music Magazine?

In any case, yes, and the recording is also really good.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 29, 2019, 12:19:07 AM
My occasional determination to come to grips with a composer's oeuvre and come up with a plan to fill gaps in my collection can be dangerous.

From cross-referencing reviews and worklists I've pencilled in 8 separate Shostakovich discs for purchase, some of which are old things I think I can get on the second-hand market.

There's some other works for which I haven't come up with a firm idea yet. And I might throw in another op.87 Preludes & Fugues I've been considering...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on July 29, 2019, 01:33:42 AM
Preludes & Fugues?  Top, top, desert island Dmitri.

Can I recommend Jenny Lin (Hanssler) or Tatiana Nikolayeva (Hyperion).  The Nikolayeva set also has an exceptionally informative booklet, worth downloading even if you prefer some other recording.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 29, 2019, 01:37:50 AM
I have Nikolayeva. So the booklet is mine.

Looking at Ashkenazy and Melnikov. But now I might have to add Lin to the options as I can see there are glowing reviews in various places.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on July 29, 2019, 04:19:59 AM
Lin is a rather modernist take - steely-fingered, percussive, but very well recorded.  Pretty much the opposite end of the spectrum from Nikolayeva.

The Nikolayeva Hyperion set was actually the first CD(s) I ever bought - to celebrate my first investment in a CD player, with a collection of several hundred LPs on my shelves.  Turned out to be a great choice!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 29, 2019, 04:31:15 AM
Happy to bespeak both Ashkenazy and Melnikov, neither of whom is displaced by whichever Nikolayeva recording I have.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 29, 2019, 04:52:37 AM
Sampling has led to the following thoughts:

Ashkenazy, which I'd previously pencilled as the one to get (over Scherbakov and I'm not sure if anyone else was considered at that stage), is good but... there's not as much engagement or character as I'd like. I think it's perhaps down to the recording, which is late 90s and (at least from online sampling on a couple of platforms) doesn't have the immediacy of some more recent ones.

Lin definitely benefits from a bright, modern recording and she sounds good, and really good in pieces that benefit from a light and crisp approach. The only places where I wasn't terribly convinced were 2 of the most technically fugues, the G sharp minor and D flat major, she seemed rather cautious in those cases (noting I'm used to Nikolayeva-Hyperion where those are among the rare places she goes for it).

Right now I'm thinking that Melnikov is the one I'm going to go for just ahead of Lin. Why? Because he just has an enormous amount of colour. The contrast he has between some pieces is spectacular. He definitely has a more "Romantic" attitude to the music than Lin, and perhaps that's more similar to the Nikolayeva-Hyperion I'm used to (though his tempi in most of the slower fugues are faster than Nikolayeva's efforts, which can border on sleepwalking). He gives a lot of shape to the music and I think that, if I listen to the entire opus (as I would prefer to do), that's going to matter.

Of course, I could go nuts and get both Lin and Melnikov, though even expanding from 1 set to 2 is not common for me...

I dunno. I may listen to those 2 in full to see what I respond to.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 29, 2019, 04:59:11 AM
And I should add, going through each of these sets this evening using iTunes "preview all" to touch upon all 48 movements has just been a reminder of what an utterly superb work op.87 is.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 29, 2019, 07:01:34 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 29, 2019, 04:59:11 AM
And I should add, going through each of these sets this evening using iTunes "preview all" to touch upon all 48 movements has just been a reminder of what an utterly superb work op.87 is.

Undeniable.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 29, 2019, 10:13:37 PM
Listening to the whole of Ashkenazy's version today, and of course I can find almost nothing wrong with it and plenty that is very right.

Vague plans to stream Lin tomorrow and Melnikov the day after...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 30, 2019, 12:21:26 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 29, 2019, 04:59:11 AM
And I should add, going through each of these sets this evening using iTunes "preview all" to touch upon all 48 movements has just been a reminder of what an utterly superb work op.87 is.

That's a piece I haven't check out, looking forward now!

I checked out the Petrenko recording of the 8th...I was disappointed by the 1st movement, which for a relatively recent recording just didn't have the bite it should have (I should mention that the lower range of dynamics on this recording are done at times exceedingly well, perhaps the best I've heard out of Barshai, Petrenko, and Mvravinsky). The second mvt. is done the best I've ever heard, and the rest is good (if, again, bizarrely flat for a recording from this century).

The Mravinsky still trumps them all, imo...though I have so many other recordings I've still yet to enjoy of this remarkable symphony :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on July 30, 2019, 01:24:06 AM
Quote from: Andy D. on July 30, 2019, 12:21:26 AM
I checked out the Petrenko recording of the 8th...I was disappointed by the 1st movement, which for a relatively recent recording just didn't have the bite it should have ...

You put it very well and that is a problem I have with the Petrenko recordings generally - they are of course excellent modern wide-ranging sound any way you want to measure it, but somehow a bit lacking in involvement, a bit too polite, maybe just a bit too much the concert-hall experience. 
I think Shostakovich benefits from something more visceral, be it the raw edges of the classic soviet-era Melodiya recordings - or the view-from-the-podium in-your-face sound of the very good Caetani cycle (Arts label, live) - or the dissected and anatomised sonic splendour that BIS provide for Wigglesworth.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 30, 2019, 01:39:39 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 30, 2019, 01:24:06 AM
You put it very well and that is a problem I have with the Petrenko recordings generally - they are of course excellent modern wide-ranging sound any way you want to measure it, but somehow a bit lacking in involvement, a bit too polite, maybe just a bit too much the concert-hall experience. 
I think Shostakovich benefits from something more visceral, be it the raw edges of the classic soviet-era Melodiya recordings - or the view-from-the-podium in-your-face sound of the very good Caetani cycle (Arts label, live) - or the dissected and anatomised sonic splendour that BIS provide for Wigglesworth.

I think you put that better than I did, my friend. And THANKS for the reccomendations! I'll probably have about eight or ten recordings of the 8th, 10th, 7th, and 11th because I already love them so much.

I do feel that Petrenko's renderings of the 10th and 11th are excellent...his 5th falls prey to exactly what you were talking about above. To me the 5th's 1st mvt. was meant to be both intense and somewhat dire sounding. All I got was a flatness from the Petrenko.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 30, 2019, 01:42:29 AM
Quote from: Andy D. on July 30, 2019, 12:21:26 AM
That's a piece I haven't check out, looking forward now!

Op.87 is an excellent way to spend a spare 2.5 hours (not that it's common to actually have the capacity to listen to the entire thing in one go).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 30, 2019, 01:43:37 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 30, 2019, 01:24:06 AM
maybe just a bit too much the concert-hall experience. 

I feel a need to clarify this. Is this a complaint that a studio recording is too much like what you would hear live?

If so I honestly think that might be a complaint I've never heard before.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 30, 2019, 01:49:22 AM
I've got my eyes on the Jarvi 7th Symphony, due to its reputation as being pretty darn intense.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on July 30, 2019, 06:10:00 AM
Quote from: Andy D. on July 30, 2019, 01:49:22 AM
I've got my eyes on the Jarvi 7th Symphony, due to its reputation as being pretty darn intense.

My favorite No. 7 is Bernstein's/CSO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on July 31, 2019, 01:20:26 AM
The 7th?  I recommend this Currentzis concert while it's still available on the SWR SO site:
https://www.swr.de/swrclassic/symphonieorchester/Teodor-Currentzis-dirigiert-Schostakowitschs-Siebte,av-o1133219-100.html (https://www.swr.de/swrclassic/symphonieorchester/Teodor-Currentzis-dirigiert-Schostakowitschs-Siebte,av-o1133219-100.html)
though I think it will remain on YouTube as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on July 31, 2019, 01:53:47 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 30, 2019, 01:24:06 AM
maybe just a bit too much the concert-hall experience. 
Quote from: Madiel on July 30, 2019, 01:43:37 AM
I feel a need to clarify this. Is this a complaint that a studio recording is too much like what you would hear live?
If so I honestly think that might be a complaint I've never heard before.

A problem with the concert-hall experience (one of several) is that it is a 'polite' environment.  I think some music can be heard to greater advantage outside of that cocoon - even if, admittedly, that would not be what the composer had in mind (he might have hoped for a riotous premiere a la Stravinsky).

Folks, whilst recommending our way through the best of Dmitri's output, please don't overlook the First Violin Concerto (1948, but supressed for several years) and the First Cello Concerto (1959).  As orchestral music goes, I think these are a match for the best of his symphonies.  Performances by the dedicatee in each case (Oistrakh and Rostropovich respectively) are mandatory although in Oistrakh's case I don't know of any in good modern sound.  For a modern recording of the VC Tetzlaff is good, or Vengerov.

A YouTube of Oistrakh and VC1 from 1967 - this is fantastic viewing, from about 21:30 for 15 minutes or so is intense!  >:D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYQiXHqFi20 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYQiXHqFi20)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 31, 2019, 02:12:55 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 31, 2019, 01:20:26 AM
The 7th?  I recommend this Currentzis concert while it's still available on the SWR SO site:
https://www.swr.de/swrclassic/symphonieorchester/Teodor-Currentzis-dirigiert-Schostakowitschs-Siebte,av-o1133219-100.html (https://www.swr.de/swrclassic/symphonieorchester/Teodor-Currentzis-dirigiert-Schostakowitschs-Siebte,av-o1133219-100.html)
though I think it will remain on YouTube as well.

Big fan of Currentzis' Tchaikovsky 6th.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on July 31, 2019, 04:53:44 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 31, 2019, 01:20:26 AM
The 7th?  I recommend this Currentzis concert while it's still available on the SWR SO site:
https://www.swr.de/swrclassic/symphonieorchester/Teodor-Currentzis-dirigiert-Schostakowitschs-Siebte,av-o1133219-100.html (https://www.swr.de/swrclassic/symphonieorchester/Teodor-Currentzis-dirigiert-Schostakowitschs-Siebte,av-o1133219-100.html)
though I think it will remain on YouTube as well.

Thanks so much for posting this! I have not yet Currentzis (in anything) and this will make a fine introduction. Also, I am always on the lookout for good sites with archived concerts, and did not realize this orchestra had any on its website. (We really do live in a golden age for music accessibility -- the sheer quantity online is overwhelming.)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 31, 2019, 04:57:36 AM
Today I've been listening to Jenny Lin in the 24 Preludes & Fugues.

I haven't finished the whole thing yet, but damn there is some nice playing here.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 31, 2019, 08:06:10 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 31, 2019, 01:53:47 AM
A problem with the concert-hall experience (one of several) is that it is a 'polite' environment.  I think some music can be heard to greater advantage outside of that cocoon - even if, admittedly, that would not be what the composer had in mind (he might have hoped for a riotous premiere a la Stravinsky).

Folks, whilst recommending our way through the best of Dmitri's output, please don't overlook the First Violin Concerto (1948, but supressed for several years) and the First Cello Concerto (1959).  As orchestral music goes, I think these are a match for the best of his symphonies.  Performances by the dedicatee in each case (Oistrakh and Rostropovich respectively) are mandatory although in Oistrakh's case I don't know of any in good modern sound.  For a modern recording of the VC Tetzlaff is good, or Vengerov.

A YouTube of Oistrakh and VC1 from 1967 - this is fantastic viewing, from about 21:30 for 15 minutes or so is intense!  >:D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYQiXHqFi20 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYQiXHqFi20)

The First Vn Concerto and the First Vc Concerto, equal to the best symphonies, yes.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 31, 2019, 08:10:45 AM
The Lenny/CSO recording of the Leningrad is truly magnificent: An individual take, yet not eccentric.

The first two recordings of the Leningrad that I loved, though, are Temirkanov & Ancerl.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 31, 2019, 04:04:43 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 31, 2019, 08:10:45 AM
The Lenny/CSO recording of the Leningrad is truly magnificent: An individual take, yet not eccentric.

The first two recordings of the Leningrad that I loved, though, are Temirkanov & Ancerl.

Hey three more to try!!!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on July 31, 2019, 04:24:19 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 31, 2019, 08:10:45 AM
The Lenny/CSO recording of the Leningrad is truly magnificent: An individual take, yet not eccentric.

The first two recordings of the Leningrad that I loved, though, are Temirkanov & Ancerl.

See, I said I spoke on your behalf.  Now proof.

My quote yesterday: "My favorite No. 7 is Bernstein's/CSO."
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 31, 2019, 04:33:05 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 31, 2019, 04:24:19 PM
See, I said I spoke on your behalf.  Now proof.

My quote yesterday: "My favorite No. 7 is Bernstein's/CSO."

I meant to credit you, really.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on July 31, 2019, 05:09:54 PM
I gave the Petrenko 7th another try, this time with headphones, and I am in love with the war time symphonies.

I love the clear sound on this disc (his 10th and 11th are really good too, but avoid the 8th).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 31, 2019, 11:15:07 PM
This new release was very well reviewed on Musicweb today:
(//)
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Jul/Shostakovich_sy7_OVC1030.html
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on July 31, 2019, 11:29:51 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 31, 2019, 11:15:07 PM
This new release was very well reviewed on Musicweb today:
(//)
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Jul/Shostakovich_sy7_OVC1030.html

I have the Mravinsky on vinyl, Jeffrey. The first movement in the wrong hands can sound like second-rate Bolero but not with Mravinsky where the repeated chords are menacing. A special performance.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on August 01, 2019, 12:05:54 AM
Quote from: Irons on July 31, 2019, 11:29:51 PM
I have the Mravinsky on vinyl, Jeffrey. The first movement in the wrong hands can sound like second-rate Bolero but not with Mravinsky where the repeated chords are menacing. A special performance.

Ooo sounds good. I have the Mravinsky 8th, and I must confess that, though I really like the Petrenko and Barshai (and am super looking forward to checking out the Kondrashin), the Mravinsky is how I first heard that masterpiece and it remains my favorite performance.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 01, 2019, 01:47:30 AM
Quote from: Irons on July 31, 2019, 11:29:51 PM
I have the Mravinsky on vinyl, Jeffrey. The first movement in the wrong hands can sound like second-rate Bolero but not with Mravinsky where the repeated chords are menacing. A special performance.
Thanks Lol,
I'm looking forward to hearing it. Mravinsky's only recording of the work surprisingly.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 01, 2019, 01:48:37 AM
Quote from: Andy D. on August 01, 2019, 12:05:54 AM
Ooo sounds good. I have the Mravinsky 8th, and I must confess that, though I really like the Petrenko and Barshai (and am super looking forward to checking out the Kondrashin), the Mravinsky is how I first heard that masterpiece and it remains my favorite performance.
I think it's at super-budget price Andy.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on August 01, 2019, 02:12:59 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 01, 2019, 01:48:37 AM
I think it's at super-budget price Andy.

:)

There's also this budget dvd with Mravinsky conducting the 5th and 8th, among others. Wondering if anyone's had any experience with this.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on August 01, 2019, 06:45:59 AM
Quote from: Andy D. on August 01, 2019, 02:12:59 AM
:)

There's also this budget dvd with Mravinsky conducting the 5th and 8th, among others. Wondering if anyone's had any experience with this.

I have Mravinsky in the 5th,6th,12th as well as the 7th but not the 8th. The 5th is a studio performance far as I am aware. Quite a few were recordings from live from concerts. Everything from Mravinsky is special and unique. I think it is his uniqueness that sets him apart, not only in Shostakovich, or even Russian music. Once heard his Sibelius 7th Symphony is not forgotten.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on August 01, 2019, 02:51:38 PM
Has anyone heard the Gergiev 7th on SACD? I really like his live performance of the piece.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on August 01, 2019, 03:09:42 PM
I currently can't separate Lin and Melnikov in the 24 Preludes and Fugues (though each is quite different), and I think they might be both coming home with me. Metaphorically speaking, as what really happens these days is I click buttons and a shop sends them to my home.

If you've heard and one and not the other, I think it's worth checking both out.

EDIT: And to aukhawk, I thank you for drawing Jenny Lin's version to my attention, though my wallet does not.  :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on August 02, 2019, 01:17:22 AM
It seems like the best thing she's done on record.  I was very disappointed by Lin's recording of the Glass Etudes (a piano project of similar scale, if a bit more restricted in scope) - I heard several of the hesitations that you identified in a couple of places in the P&F.  (Fortunately the Etudes are very well served on record, since the composer's 80th birthday sparked a flood of releases in 2017.  My picks would be Batagov (romantic) or Namekawa (modernist).

Out of respect for your wallet of course I made no mention of Jarrett (disappointing), Nikolayeva on Melodiya, Papadopoulos, Woodward, Mustonen, or part-sets - Richter, DSCH himself on Naxos.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jo498 on August 02, 2019, 01:38:32 AM
The Mustonen pairing with WTC I is interesting and thought-provoking but even regardless of the mix probably not a first rec for either set of P&F. Besides Mustonen I have Sherbakov and Rubackyte and the incomplete Richter/Decca. Which is enough for my needs.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 02, 2019, 03:12:23 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 02, 2019, 01:38:32 AM
The Mustonen pairing with WTC I is interesting and thought-provoking but even regardless of the mix probably not a first rec for either set of P&F.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on August 02, 2019, 06:29:16 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on August 02, 2019, 01:17:22 AM
It seems like the best thing she's done on record.  I was very disappointed by Lin's recording of the Glass Etudes (a piano project of similar scale, if a bit more restricted in scope) - I heard several of the hesitations that you identified in a couple of places in the P&F.  (Fortunately the Etudes are very well served on record, since the composer's 80th birthday sparked a flood of releases in 2017.  My picks would be Batagov (romantic) or Namekawa (modernist).

Out of respect for your wallet of course I made no mention of Jarrett (disappointing), Nikolayeva on Melodiya, Papadopoulos, Woodward, Mustonen, or part-sets - Richter, DSCH himself on Naxos.

Most of those others can be eliminated on the basis of mixed reviews. So mentioning them can be permitted, I just wouldn't have rated your opinion as highly!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on August 02, 2019, 04:59:19 PM
Quote from: Andy D. on August 01, 2019, 02:51:38 PM
Has anyone heard the Gergiev 7th on SACD? I really like his live performance of the piece.

I generally like the Gergiev interpretations but not the acoustics.  They tend to be a bit stuffy on disc so prefer live recorded sounds.  For example, I adore his live video of Prokofiev's Scythian suite but not the CD with the same forces.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on August 02, 2019, 05:38:04 PM
Quote from: relm1 on August 02, 2019, 04:59:19 PM
I generally like the Gergiev interpretations but not the acoustics.  They tend to be a bit stuffy on disc so prefer live recorded sounds.  For example, I adore his live video of Prokofiev's Scythian suite but not the CD with the same forces.
Thanks for helping me!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on August 08, 2019, 12:59:05 PM
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/747313023875.jpg?1444819600)

I was listening to The Fall of Berlin. This is simply exhilarating and brilliant. Shostakovich wrote so many film scores, and this has to rank among the best. A much more carefree facet of the composer with lots of fun. Superb music from start to finish. This Naxos recording is just impressive too, really fine and powerful. Highly recommended.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Alek Hidell on August 08, 2019, 06:27:58 PM
Quote from: Madiel on August 02, 2019, 06:29:16 AM
Most of those others can be eliminated on the basis of mixed reviews. So mentioning them can be permitted, I just wouldn't have rated your opinion as highly!

Looks like Jo498 mentioned it in passing a page back, but I've heard good things about the Rubackyte recording - though I confess I haven't actually heard it. (The ones I've heard are Nikoleyeva [1987(?) version], Melnikov, and Ashkenazy. I rank them in that order.)

I know it's not your inclination to pile up different versions of a work, Madiel, but I know Todd is fond of Rubackyte in general (don't recall if he's ever talked about her Shosty Op.87, though).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 08, 2019, 06:40:51 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on August 08, 2019, 12:59:05 PM
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/747313023875.jpg?1444819600)

I was listening to The Fall of Berlin. This is simply exhilarating and brilliant. Shostakovich wrote so many film scores, and this has to rank among the best. A much more carefree facet of the composer with lots of fun. Superb music from start to finish. This Naxos recording is just impressive too, really fine and powerful. Highly recommended.

Must own that I've enjoyed the film music better than I expected.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 08, 2019, 06:41:59 PM
Quote from: Alek Hidell on August 08, 2019, 06:27:58 PM
Looks like Jo498 mentioned it in passing a page back, but I've heard good things about the Rubackyte recording - though I confess I haven't actually heard it. (The ones I've heard are Nikoleyeva [1987(?) version], Melnikov, and Ashkenazy. I rank them in that order.)

I know it's not your inclination to pile up different versions of a work, Madiel, but I know Todd is fond of Rubackyte in general (don't recall if he's ever talked about her Shosty Op.87, though).

I have enjoyed it!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 09, 2019, 01:49:34 AM
Been enjoying this moving wartime performance. The tail end of the American radio announcement at the start took me by surprise:
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on August 09, 2019, 09:47:31 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 08, 2019, 06:40:51 PM
Must own that I've enjoyed the film music better than I expected.

It's a refreshing alternative to his other symphonic works.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on August 20, 2019, 07:13:15 PM
(https://s.mxmcdn.net/images-storage/albums4/3/1/9/3/1/0/33013913_800_800.jpg)

The Execution of Stepan Razin from this set is quite simply tremendous!! It has to be the reference recording for this piece, head and shoulders above any other. An electrifying performance where all was rightly blended for huge impact: orchestra, chorus, soloist and the very atmosphere of the recording. It was almost like watching a film, a vivid experience. The bells near the ending sounded masterly, I think it was an effect proper of geniuses. That moment gave me goosebumps.

All in all, what a brutal piece!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 20, 2019, 11:17:43 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on August 20, 2019, 07:13:15 PM
(https://s.mxmcdn.net/images-storage/albums4/3/1/9/3/1/0/33013913_800_800.jpg)

The Execution of Stepan Razin from this set is quite simply tremendous!! It has to be the reference recording for this piece, head and shoulders above any other. An electrifying performance where all was rightly blended for huge impact: orchestra, chorus, soloist and the very atmosphere of the recording. It was almost like watching a film, a vivid experience. The bells near the ending sounded masterly, I think it was an effect proper of geniuses. That moment gave me goosebumps.

All in all, what a brutal piece!

+1 - the type of performance for which the phrase "classic recording" was invented!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on August 20, 2019, 11:27:18 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on August 20, 2019, 07:13:15 PM
(https://s.mxmcdn.net/images-storage/albums4/3/1/9/3/1/0/33013913_800_800.jpg)

The Execution of Stepan Razin from this set is quite simply tremendous!! It has to be the reference recording for this piece, head and shoulders above any other. An electrifying performance where all was rightly blended for huge impact: orchestra, chorus, soloist and the very atmosphere of the recording. It was almost like watching a film, a vivid experience. The bells near the ending sounded masterly, I think it was an effect proper of geniuses. That moment gave me goosebumps.

All in all, what a brutal piece!

Go to hell in a handcart! "Brutal" is a perfect description. Beside Kondrashin I very much like Slovak with a fine bass, Bohus Hanak.

(https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/293034736227_/U428-SUA-ST-50958-SHOSTAKOVICH-SYMPHONY-No2-LADISLAV.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on August 21, 2019, 04:27:08 AM
Really psyched about checking out the Kondrashian :)

Recently I grabbed the Petrenko 4th and it helped me click with that symphony. The recording itself sounds so good (sometimes I just want to hear something with more modern production) and I liked the performance a lot. Now the 4th is one of my favorites.

I still need to give 1-3, 6, and 12 a try.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 21, 2019, 04:37:27 AM
Quote from: Andy D. on August 21, 2019, 04:27:08 AM
Really psyched about checking out the Kondrashian :)

Recently I grabbed the Petrenko 4th and it helped me click with that symphony. The recording itself sounds so good (sometimes I just want to hear something with more modern production) and I liked the performance a lot. Now the 4th is one of my favorites.

I still need to give 1-3, 6, and 12 a try.

Andy - one thing to bear in mind is that the Kondrashin recordings are all "old school" Soviet orchestras/recordings.  This really means that the orchestral timbres can be harsh (check out soviet brass playing and see if you like it)  and the recordings not as detailed as you imply you like and occasionally they become positively congested even distorted.  BUT, I absolutely love this type of performance and indeed recording.  Its seat-of-your-pants, riding-into-the-abyss kind of thing.  For example the end of Kondrashin's No.11 is SO violent - slamming timpani and tubular bells - that it sounds viscerally like a massacre or nascent revolution.  Once you buy into this Soviet sound almost nothing else compares........
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on August 21, 2019, 05:47:38 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 21, 2019, 04:37:27 AM
Andy - one thing to bear in mind is that the Kondrashin recordings are all "old school" Soviet orchestras/recordings.  This really means that the orchestral timbres can be harsh (check out soviet brass playing and see if you like it)  and the recordings not as detailed as you imply you like and occasionally they become positively congested even distorted.  BUT, I absolutely love this type of performance and indeed recording.  Its seat-of-your-pants, riding-into-the-abyss kind of thing.  For example the end of Kondrashin's No.11 is SO violent - slamming timpani and tubular bells - that it sounds viscerally like a massacre or nascent revolution.  Once you buy into this Soviet sound almost nothing else compares........

Thanks so much for the considerate heads up! But I've got all kinds of wonderful old recordings by Klemperer, Furtwangler et al and love them for what they are.

That said, it's really interesting how you mentioned the orchestration...I'm going to have to check into this more.

Again, this was both considerate and helpful and I'm grateful.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on August 21, 2019, 06:09:29 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 21, 2019, 04:37:27 AM
Andy - one thing to bear in mind is that the Kondrashin recordings are all "old school" Soviet orchestras/recordings.  This really means that the orchestral timbres can be harsh (check out soviet brass playing and see if you like it)  and the recordings not as detailed as you imply you like and occasionally they become positively congested even distorted.  BUT, I absolutely love this type of performance and indeed recording.  Its seat-of-your-pants, riding-into-the-abyss kind of thing.  For example the end of Kondrashin's No.11 is SO violent - slamming timpani and tubular bells - that it sounds viscerally like a massacre or nascent revolution.  Once you buy into this Soviet sound almost nothing else compares........

One other thing, Soviet (and Eastern European) trumpets have a vibrato in their trumpet playing that Western players do not.  It is very jarring especially to brass players to hear that and you get loads of it in Soviet era recordings.  Add to that, the music is typically so loud that the levels distort.  Fine audio is NOT the strength of these recordings.  But they are a uniquely authentic in their interpretation so worth hearing and preserving for that reason, however, rarely my go to versions.    I prefer sonic and performance clarity over raw power.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on August 21, 2019, 06:17:45 AM
FWIW I agree with others that the Kondrashin Execution of Stepan Razin is absolutely exceptional.  The sound quality suits the subject matter perfectly.
The LP cover has a bit more about it than the anodyne collection art:
(http://tuloimportas.com/image/cache/catalog/phimportador/Ebay/322115520499-600x600.jpg)

To quote from the (translated) poem, just after the climactic moment of execution:
In the death-like silence
the fleas jumped over
from the smocks of the poor
to the furs of the rich.


( Incidentally Googling for "execution Stepan Razin" yields some truly hair-raising images - and I was just digesting my lunch too! )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on August 21, 2019, 06:23:37 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 21, 2019, 06:09:29 AM
One other thing, Soviet (and Eastern European) trumpets have a vibrato in their trumpet playing that Western players do not.  It is very jarring especially to brass players to hear that and you get loads of it in Soviet era recordings.  Add to that, the music is typically so loud that the levels distort.  Fine audio is NOT the strength of these recordings.  But they are a uniquely authentic in their interpretation so worth hearing and preserving for that reason, however, rarely my go to versions.    I prefer sonic and performance clarity over raw power.

This is also really interesting, thank you.

I don't have problems with old recordings (heck my favorite film music is mostly from the Golden age), it's just as I get older I find myself being more open to more recent stuff.

My favorite Shostakovich has been Gergiev's 7th, Mravinsky 8th, Petrenko 4th, 5th, 10, and 11, the Barshai 13th, and the Kondrashian 15th (the last of which I have with the very good box pictured below).

The 15th is the only one I've heard conducted by Kondrashian, and I love it. I'm especially psyched to check out his handling of the first mvt of the 8th, which is one of my favorite pieces of music by anyone.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on August 21, 2019, 06:31:50 AM
I enjoyed the Kondrashin 8th for years, but for me it was superseded by (of all people) Previn (!)  And then by some more modern readings, notably Caetani.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on August 21, 2019, 09:39:43 AM
Quote from: Andy D. on August 21, 2019, 04:27:08 AM
Really psyched about checking out the Kondrashian :)

Recently I grabbed the Petrenko 4th and it helped me click with that symphony. The recording itself sounds so good (sometimes I just want to hear something with more modern production) and I liked the performance a lot. Now the 4th is one of my favorites.

I still need to give 1-3, 6, and 12 a try.

It is great, isn't it Andy?  Very glad you enjoy it.  Petrenko's 4th and 14th are probably my favourtie recordings out of that set.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on August 21, 2019, 09:42:18 AM
So good to hear from you!n :)

Uh-oh, now I GOT-sta check out the 14th. haven't heard that one yet.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on August 21, 2019, 09:51:19 AM
Quote from: Andy D. on August 21, 2019, 09:42:18 AM
So good to hear from you!n :)

Uh-oh, now I GOT-sta check out the 14th. haven't heard that one yet.

Welcome back.  Yes, do check out the 14th.  The Petrenko has a wicked 2nd movment Malaguena.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 21, 2019, 05:05:07 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 21, 2019, 09:39:43 AM
It is great, isn't it Andy?  Very glad you enjoy it.  Petrenko's 4th and 14th are probably my favourtie recordings out of that set.

Do I believe mine eyne? Ray!!!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Andy D. on August 22, 2019, 03:02:57 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 21, 2019, 05:05:07 PM
Do I believe mine eyne? Ray!!!

Ray rules!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on August 22, 2019, 04:01:07 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 21, 2019, 05:05:07 PM
Do I believe mine eyne? Ray!!!

Bonjour Karl and Andy.

I may not post often, but I lurk now and then.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 19, 2019, 11:04:09 PM
Recent #CDReview on ClassicsToday:
LSO #Shostakovich 8 Remake Succeeds With Noseda

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDzSi0TWsAAPgVp?format=jpg&name=small) (https://t.co/JPqWcKRRot?amp=1)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 25, 2019, 11:31:36 AM
I know that we've discussed individual symphonies but what's your overall verdict on this set please?
I have sets by Haitink, Barshai, Jansons and Maxim (Supraphon) plus a DGG one featuring different conductors. Do I need this set as well?
::)
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 25, 2019, 12:30:48 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 25, 2019, 11:31:36 AM
I know that we've discussed individual symphonies but what's your overall verdict on this set please?
I have sets by Haitink, Barshai, Jansons and Maxim (Supraphon) plus a DGG one featuring different conductors. Do I need this set as well?
::)


I also have Barshai, Maxim, and much of Haitink and Jansons. Understand that I have not heard all of the Petrenko cycle.

But from my perspective, I should say not.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 25, 2019, 12:31:41 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 21, 2019, 09:39:43 AM
It is great, isn't it Andy?  Very glad you enjoy it.  Petrenko's 4th and 14th are probably my favourtie recordings out of that set.
excellent, Ray!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 25, 2019, 02:32:05 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 25, 2019, 11:31:36 AM
I know that we've discussed individual symphonies but what's your overall verdict on this set please?
I have sets by Haitink, Barshai, Jansons and Maxim (Supraphon) plus a DGG one featuring different conductors. Do I need this set as well?
::)
(//)

Well, as a person who only wanted to get one set, it's the one I chose to get.

Whether you need it "as well" depends on what your criteria are. Do I think it's good? Yes. That's why it's the one I chose. But I should note that one of the sets you have is Jansons, which from my sampling was often quite similar in style to Petrenko. So if your main criterion is "is it that different from what I've already got" then the answer might be no.

Jansons and Petrenko were my 2 finalists for my own tastes. I ended up picking Petrenko over Jansons though I couldn't tell you several years later exactly why that was.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 25, 2019, 02:59:38 PM
Quote from: Madiel on September 25, 2019, 02:32:05 PM
Well, as a person who only wanted to get one set, it's the one I chose to get.

Whether you need it "as well" depends on what your criteria are. Do I think it's good? Yes. That's why it's the one I chose. But I should note that one of the sets you have is Jansons, which from my sampling was often quite similar in style to Petrenko. So if your main criterion is "is it that different from what I've already got" then the answer might be no.

Jansons and Petrenko were my 2 finalists for my own tastes. I ended up picking Petrenko over Jansons though I couldn't tell you several years later exactly why that was.

Sounds like your process was a success.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 25, 2019, 05:16:09 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 25, 2019, 02:59:38 PM
Sounds like your process was a success.

Well I've certainly got a lot of satisfaction out of Petrenko. There are only 1 or 2 symphonies where I'm not fully convinced.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Ken B on September 25, 2019, 05:19:35 PM
Quote from: Madiel on September 25, 2019, 05:16:09 PM
Well I've certainly got a lot of satisfaction out of Petrenko. There are only 1 or 2 symphonies where I'm not fully convinced.

John (MI) was a big fan of the Petrenko.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: JBS on September 25, 2019, 05:32:21 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 25, 2019, 11:31:36 AM
I know that we've discussed individual symphonies but what's your overall verdict on this set please?
I have sets by Haitink, Barshai, Jansons and Maxim (Supraphon) plus a DGG one featuring different conductors. Do I need this set as well?
::)
(//)

I would say the most obvious lacuna is Kondrashin's cycle. But at current Amazon pricing (one used set, offered at over $1400 US!) you would need to search out individual CDs.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 25, 2019, 11:50:13 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 25, 2019, 12:30:48 PM
I also have Barshai, Maxim, and much of Haitink and Jansons. Understand that I have not heard all of the Petrenko cycle.

But from my perspective, I should say not.
Thanks Karl!

:)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 25, 2019, 11:54:03 PM
Quote from: Madiel on September 25, 2019, 02:32:05 PM
Well, as a person who only wanted to get one set, it's the one I chose to get.

Whether you need it "as well" depends on what your criteria are. Do I think it's good? Yes. That's why it's the one I chose. But I should note that one of the sets you have is Jansons, which from my sampling was often quite similar in style to Petrenko. So if your main criterion is "is it that different from what I've already got" then the answer might be no.

Jansons and Petrenko were my 2 finalists for my own tastes. I ended up picking Petrenko over Jansons though I couldn't tell you several years later exactly why that was.

Thank you Madiel! That is very helpful advice. My late sister-in-law's brother selected the Petrenko after I lent him multiple copies of Symphony 4 (Including Petrenko). However, it is his local orchestra as he lives in Liverpool, but he seems very happy with it. I was interested in your Jansons comparison.
Thanks again.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 25, 2019, 11:57:11 PM
Quote from: JBS on September 25, 2019, 05:32:21 PM
I would say the most obvious lacuna is Kondrashin's cycle. But at current Amazon pricing (one used set, offered at over $1400 US!) you would need to search out individual CDs.
Thanks Jeffrey. I agree but that set is always absurdly priced on Amazon. Fortunately I have a few of the individual Melodiya releases including Nos 4,8,11 and 15 which are amongst my favourites (I think that 9 is coupled with 15).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 25, 2019, 11:58:47 PM
Quote from: Ken B on September 25, 2019, 05:19:35 PM
John (MI) was a big fan of the Petrenko.
Good to know. Thanks Ken. I miss John and cilgwyn's input very much.
:(
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 26, 2019, 02:37:48 AM
The biggest gamble of my recent purchases paid off. I got a copy of this album...

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81mjs-RuTsL._SS500_.jpg)

...but not in that format. When that version was released in 2006 (itself now rare and expensive), highly enthusiastic reviews said "gosh, this was recorded in 1992, how come it's taken so long to get to disc?

The answer was that it had been released in 1994 on the Vanguard Classics label, in a "Rembrandt" series of Dutch recordings. And also on a label called Fidelio, I'm not entirely sure which came first though the Vanguard has a fractionally better version of the cover art.

(https://www.melomania.com/var/images/disques/biggest/497441.jpg)

It took a lot of work to figure this out based on an eBay listing with a truly terrible description and no picture, but the second-hand CD duly turned up in the letterbox this morning. Case cracked (seriously, I'm beginning to wonder whether it's my local postman as so many cases have been damaged) but the CD itself looks to be in immaculate condition.

And multiple reviews said this was one of the best renditions of these sonatas available. So, with this purchase I'm happy!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on September 26, 2019, 02:48:39 AM
Quote from: JBS on September 25, 2019, 05:32:21 PM
I would say the most obvious lacuna is Kondrashin's cycle. But at current Amazon pricing (one used set, offered at over $1400 US!) you would need to search out individual CDs.

Or you can stream it. (It's on Spotify for example.)  And the set includes (among other extras) Kondrashin's recording of Stepan Razin, which is just essential.

(http://www.executedtoday.com/images/Kirillov_Stepan_Razin.jpg)  (http://www.canmuseum.com/Staging/Images/Cans/58714L.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Biffo on September 26, 2019, 03:33:05 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on September 26, 2019, 02:48:39 AM
Or you can stream it. (It's on Spotify for example.)  And the set includes (among other extras) Kondrashin's recording of Stepan Razin, which is just essential.

(http://www.executedtoday.com/images/Kirillov_Stepan_Razin.jpg)  (http://www.canmuseum.com/Staging/Images/Cans/58714L.jpg)

Thanks for the info - I have saved it to my Spotify library.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on September 26, 2019, 06:11:08 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 25, 2019, 11:31:36 AM
I know that we've discussed individual symphonies but what's your overall verdict on this set please?
I have sets by Haitink, Barshai, Jansons and Maxim (Supraphon) plus a DGG one featuring different conductors. Do I need this set as well?
::)
(//)

I thought the Petrenko No. 5 was very good.  But some others weren't so strong and I forgot which ones those were!  I think No. 11 wasn't so good so as a cycle in a whole I didn't think it was a go do compared to the greatest ones like Haitink or Barshai but there were a few that were quite good.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 26, 2019, 06:56:51 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 26, 2019, 06:11:08 AM
I thought the Petrenko No. 5 was very good.  But some others weren't so strong and I forgot which ones those were!  I think No. 11 wasn't so good so as a cycle in a whole I didn't think it was a go do compared to the greatest ones like Haitink or Barshai but there were a few that were quite good.
Thank you Karim. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 26, 2019, 07:27:09 AM
I'm reading this at the moment;

[asin]0857383027[/asin]

which is a very powerful book.  Not sure Moynahan writes with the insight someone steeped in music would - he 'reports' the musical side of things well - oddly the Lengingrad Philharmonic swaps between being a Philharmonic and (mainly) a Philharmonia.  Other bits of proofing are not so hot too Gauk becomes Gaul on the same page!  But the essence of the story of the siege is gripping.  Contrary to a book such as Anthony Beevor's Stalingrad which is primarily a military history this - while dealing of course with the military side of the siege of course - focuses on the appalling consequences for the people of the city at the hands of Hitler AND Stalin.  The DSCH Symphony is something of an adjunct to that but valuable too.  At the price this book can be found in the Amazon Marketplace it is well worth a read.

It led me to dig out Svetlanov's 1968 recording which I enjoyed a lot - brazen and exciting but heartfelt too.  If anyone ever says "music has no meaning - its a purely abstract art form" this piece dispels that theory.  As a last thought - when checking the Svetlanov recording I looked up his discography - according to his own website he never recorded 4 (no real surprise given when and where most of his recordings were made), 11,12 (more surprising given their 'propaganda' status/style) & 14.......

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 26, 2019, 08:30:17 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 26, 2019, 07:27:09 AM
I'm reading this at the moment;

[asin]0857383027[/asin]

which is a very powerful book.  Not sure Moynahan writes with the insight someone steeped in music would - he 'reports' the musical side of things well - oddly the Lengingrad Philharmonic swaps between being a Philharmonic and (mainly) a Philharmonia.  Other bits of proofing are not so hot too Gauk becomes Gaul on the same page!  But the essence of the story of the siege is gripping.  Contrary to a book such as Anthony Beevor's Stalingrad which is primarily a military history this - while dealing of course with the military side of the siege of course - focuses on the appalling consequences for the people of the city at the hands of Hitler AND Stalin.  The DSCH Symphony is something of an adjunct to that but valuable too.  At the price this book can be found in the Amazon Marketplace it is well worth a read.

It led me to dig out Svetlanov's 1968 recording which I enjoyed a lot - brazen and exciting but heartfelt too.  If anyone ever says "music has no meaning - its a purely abstract art form" this piece dispels that theory.  As a last thought - when checking the Svetlanov recording I looked up his discography - according to his own website he never recorded 4 (no real surprise given when and where most of his recordings were made), 11,12 (more surprising given their 'propaganda' status/style) & 14.......
I enjoyed that book as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 26, 2019, 08:43:12 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 26, 2019, 06:11:08 AM
I thought the Petrenko No. 5 was very good.  But some others weren't so strong and I forgot which ones those were!  I think No. 11 wasn't so good so as a cycle in a whole I didn't think it was a go do compared to the greatest ones like Haitink or Barshai but there were a few that were quite good.

I think it good, certainly better than some critics allowed, but I wouldn't call it competitive in so large a field.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on September 26, 2019, 04:15:02 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 26, 2019, 08:43:12 AM
I think it good, certainly better than some critics allowed, but I wouldn't call it competitive in so large a field.

That's fair.  It did make me stand up and take notice though.  Most don't.  I believe (going off memory so I might be wrong) that it was the first in the cycle so it did promise a lot of the cycle and wasn't a disappointment but karl sets a different bar, does it knock off the best of a crowded field?  No.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 26, 2019, 07:01:32 PM
Actually no.11 was the first in the Petrenko cycle.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 29, 2019, 04:56:38 PM
I've just been listening to the Two Fables of Krylov, op.4.

These were always intended to be orchestral, and the recording by Jarvi landed in my letterbox today.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Psa2W3JlL.jpg)

I've also got the piano version.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81ddh%2B4XsdL._SX466_.jpg)

They're good songs in the piano version, but the orchestral rendition really shines with music depicting a dragonfly and ant in the first song, and an ass and a nightingale in the second.

Excellent music that deserves to be better known. And how old is the composer? 15.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SymphonicAddict on September 29, 2019, 05:11:19 PM
Quote from: Madiel on September 29, 2019, 04:56:38 PM
I've just been listening to the Two Fables of Krylov, op.4.

These were always intended to be orchestral, and the recording by Jarvi landed in my letterbox today.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Psa2W3JlL.jpg)

I've also got the piano version.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81ddh%2B4XsdL._SX466_.jpg)

They're good songs in the piano version, but the orchestral rendition really shines with music depicting a dragonfly and ant in the first song, and an ass and a nightingale in the second.

Excellent music that deserves to be better known. And how old is the composer? 15.

Agreed. I only know the orchestral ones and they are fantastic. Short but very tasty.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 29, 2019, 05:59:11 PM
Indeed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on October 15, 2019, 05:01:59 AM
Does anyone have recommendations for the 2 most significant chamber works that I don't yet have?

1. The piano quintet
2. The cello sonata
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 15, 2019, 05:45:27 AM
Quote from: Madiel on October 15, 2019, 05:01:59 AM
Does anyone have recommendations for the 2 most significant chamber works that I don't yet have?

1. The piano quintet
2. The cello sonata

2. Mischa Maisky & Martha Argerich.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 15, 2019, 06:09:09 AM
Quote from: Madiel on October 15, 2019, 05:01:59 AM
Does anyone have recommendations for the 2 most significant chamber works that I don't yet have?

1. The piano quintet
2. The cello sonata

Yes...

1. Takács Quartet with Marc-André Hamelin (Hyperion)
2. Alban Gerhardt and Steven Osborne (Hyperion)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on October 15, 2019, 07:27:55 AM
Of course. Chamber music. The answer is often Hyperion.

Can't stream those but will sample on iTunes (along with other suggestions, thanks Karl).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 15, 2019, 07:43:35 AM
Quote from: Madiel on October 15, 2019, 07:27:55 AM
Of course. Chamber music. The answer is often Hyperion.

In many cases, yes, but not all the time.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 15, 2019, 08:51:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 15, 2019, 06:09:09 AM
Yes...

1. Takács Quartet with Marc-André Hamelin (Hyperion)
2. Alban Gerhardt and Steven Osborne (Hyperion)

Those must be good.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: JBS on October 15, 2019, 10:38:15 AM
Quote from: Madiel on October 15, 2019, 05:01:59 AM
Does anyone have recommendations for the 2 most significant chamber works that I don't yet have?

1. The piano quintet
2. The cello sonata

For the PQ, other versions I found to be good
Julliard Quartet with Bronfman
Borodin Quartet with Richter
Artemis Quartet with Leonskaja

Amazon shows a recording by the Beethoven Quartet with Shostakovich himself as pianist, btw. Haven't heard it.

Don't have a preference for the sonata, but it appears Rostropovich recorded it three times, with Shostakovich, Britten and Richter as pianists.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 15, 2019, 06:21:35 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 15, 2019, 08:51:36 AM
Those must be good.

Oh yes, quite fine but Jeffrey and your choices were of equal measure to be certain. We're spoilt for choices in both of these works thankfully.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Alek Hidell on October 15, 2019, 06:36:15 PM
For the Cello Sonata, I like this one too (and the concerto is good as well):

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81j4KFWAqiL._SL1500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on October 16, 2019, 01:27:29 AM
I agree with Takács Quartet for the Quintet, and Sol Gabetta for the Sonata.  And the Vienna Trio for the Trio No.2, while we're in this territory - these are all very fine works but I think the Trio is the weightiest of the three.
An old-skule alternative for the Sonata could be Pierre Fournier, but for the Quintet and the Trio those first choices are untouchable, for me.

This YouTube link is Gautier Capuçon & Yuja Wang playing the Cello Sonata, from 2013:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYFDBCCx7eg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYFDBCCx7eg)

All three works are available to stream with Shostakovich himself playing, in the recently-released 'Shostakovich plays Shostakovich' compilation, recordings not too dated - early 60s mainly, I think.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71IvM2T4OpL._SL1500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on October 16, 2019, 08:44:59 AM
Quote from: Madiel on October 15, 2019, 05:01:59 AM
Does anyone have recommendations for the 2 most significant chamber works that I don't yet have?

1. The piano quintet


I like the Borodin Quartet with Richter
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jo498 on October 16, 2019, 09:40:49 AM
I think the quintet is hard to "destroy". Richter/Borodin might be hard to find separately (I have it in the Melodiya Borodin Qt. box). There is a later Leonskaja/Borodin (with the Trio on Teldec/Warner) that's also good. As far as I recall I also liked the Naxos (Berman/Vermeer) although I might have kept this mainly for the Schnittke coupling.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 16, 2019, 11:01:07 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 16, 2019, 09:40:49 AM
I think the quintet is hard to "destroy". Richter/Borodin might be hard to find separately (I have it in the Melodiya Borodin Qt. box). There is a later Leonskaja/Borodin (with the Trio on Teldec/Warner) that's also good. As far as I recall I also liked the Naxos (Berman/Vermeer) although I might have kept this mainly for the Schnittke coupling.

I do think the Berman/Vermeer good. A fine disc.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 20, 2019, 07:01:07 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 16, 2019, 09:40:49 AM
I think the quintet is hard to "destroy". Richter/Borodin might be hard to find separately (I have it in the Melodiya Borodin Qt. box). There is a later Leonskaja/Borodin (with the Trio on Teldec/Warner) that's also good. As far as I recall I also liked the Naxos (Berman/Vermeer) although I might have kept this mainly for the Schnittke coupling.

Yes, that performance from Richter/Borodin Quartet is very difficult to find individually and one's best bet to find it is in that Borodin Quartet set on Melodiya (which I own as well).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 20, 2019, 07:12:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 25, 2019, 11:31:36 AM
I know that we've discussed individual symphonies but what's your overall verdict on this set please?
I have sets by Haitink, Barshai, Jansons and Maxim (Supraphon) plus a DGG one featuring different conductors. Do I need this set as well?
::)
(//)

Sorry for the late reply, but Petrenko's cycle is pretty ho-hum to these ears. I don't hear a conductor with anything interesting to say. One of the biggest disappointments of the Petrenko cycle was the 11th --- one of my personal favorites from Shostakovich. There's a lot of listeners who like his cycle, but I could never truly appreciate it. I'm much more of a fan of Kondrashin, Haitink, Rozhdestvensky, (Kurt) Sanderling, Svetlanov, and Mravinsky.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 20, 2019, 08:26:05 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 20, 2019, 07:12:13 AM
Sorry for the late reply, but Petrenko's cycle is pretty ho-hum to these ears. I don't hear a conductor with anything interesting to say. One of the biggest disappointments of the Petrenko cycle was the 11th --- one of my personal favorites from Shostakovich. There's a lot of listeners who like his cycle, but I could never truly appreciate it. I'm much more of a fan of Kondrashin, Haitink, Rozhdestvensky, (Kurt) Sanderling, Svetlanov, and Mravinsky.

Thanks very much for your views John. I forgot to mention that I also have the Rostropovich set as well.  ::)

We had a heavy rain, leaking roof scenario here yesterday and I'm not sure that my Malcolm Sargent box set of various works (not Shostakovich) will ever recover from this experience  ???
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 20, 2019, 08:44:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 20, 2019, 08:26:05 AM
Thanks very much for your views John. I forgot to mention that I also have the Rostropovich set as well.  ::)

We had a heavy rain, leaking roof scenario here yesterday and I'm not sure that my Malcolm Sargent box set of various works (not Shostakovich) will ever recover from this experience  ???

You're welcome, Jeffrey. Sorry to hear of the leaking roof. I hope nothing got damaged besides the Malcolm Sargent box set.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 20, 2019, 09:40:57 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 20, 2019, 08:44:55 AM
You're welcome, Jeffrey. Sorry to hear of the leaking roof. I hope nothing got damaged besides the Malcolm Sargent box set.

Thank you my friend!

OT

A few books had to be thrown out including 'The Annotated Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde' but I have already received an inexpensive replacement via Amazon Prime. My wife is always pleased to see books or CDs disappear from the house!  ::)

PS I should add that this is nothing compared to a tree crashing through your house last year.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 20, 2019, 09:54:14 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 20, 2019, 09:40:57 AM
Thank you my friend!

OT

A few books had to be thrown out including 'The Annotated Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde' but I have already received an inexpensive replacement via Amazon Prime. My wife is always pleased to see books or CDs disappear from the house!  ::)

PS I should add that this is nothing compared to a tree crashing through your house last year.

Hah! Yeah, I'm sure my mom would love to see ALL of my CDs disappear. :D The tree crashing into my house actually happened in 2017 and this was from the remnants of Hurricane Irma, which had been downgraded to a tropical storm. I never in my life have seen wind like this, but thankfully, we had almost every tree removed from our property and the only ones left are ones that aren't even close to the house. It's always nice to have a little shade, especially when Georgia summers are concerned. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 20, 2019, 10:32:21 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 20, 2019, 09:54:14 AM
Hah! Yeah, I'm sure my mom would love to see ALL of my CDs disappear. :D The tree crashing into my house actually happened in 2017 and this was from the remnants of Hurricane Irma, which had been downgraded to a tropical storm. I never in my life have seen wind like this, but thankfully, we had almost every tree removed from our property and the only ones left are ones that aren't even close to the house. It's always nice to have a little shade, especially when Georgia summers are concerned. :)

Good to hear John. All the best to you.  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 20, 2019, 10:47:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 20, 2019, 10:32:21 AM
Good to hear John. All the best to you.  :)

And the same to you, Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jo498 on October 20, 2019, 12:33:39 PM
There was a separate issue of the Richter/Borodin, but it would be hard to find used. The Leonskaja/Borodin is quite good and seems available

ASIN: B00000DNI0
[asin]B00000DNI0[/asin] [asin]B000024S1P[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on November 08, 2019, 12:45:15 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 21, 2019, 06:09:29 AM
One other thing, Soviet (and Eastern European) trumpets have a vibrato in their trumpet playing that Western players do not.  It is very jarring especially to brass players to hear that and you get loads of it in Soviet era recordings.  Add to that, the music is typically so loud that the levels distort.  Fine audio is NOT the strength of these recordings.  But they are a uniquely authentic in their interpretation so worth hearing and preserving for that reason, however, rarely my go to versions.    I prefer sonic and performance clarity over raw power.

This was about the Kondrashin recordings, which I bought when they were quite affordable (on Aulos, I believe a whole bunch of GMG-folk got those fifteen years or so ago). I have been listening to Symphony nr 10 lately, various recordings, and Kondrashin is just outstanding for its drive, and yes for its horn vibrato in the Elmira motiv. I love it, because it's so characteristic, and it is, most likely, what DSCH was used to  -  although one can never be sure about that. Maybe the vibrato came in the post-war years; I have a pretty strong feeling Tchaikovsky was used to a much more delicate way of orchestral playing; otherwise it wouldn'y have made sense to compose things like Sleeping Beauty.

I'm awaiting the Petrenko nr 10 now.

I have a lot of the Haitink recordings, they would in many case be my as if imprint recordings. Their downside is, especially in the Concertgebouw recordings, the huge artificial reverb added by the engineers, just to suggest the Concertgebouw experience. Having been in the Concertgebouw I can honestly say I have never heard the reverb one hears in the recording of DSCH8. Some of these recordings were also rather first-off. For instance, nr 10 was recorded with the London Philharmonic after a 1975 tour to Europe, including Moscow, where Haitink briefly met the composer. Haitink and the orchestra had never played nr 10 before this tour.

One can tell Haitink loves the symphony (also for its many echoes of Tchaikovsky 4) and in a youtube video one can see the conductor reverently putting his flowers on his copy of the score (Haitink is this unique conductor who always hated the applause afterwards). However if one hears the Proms 1986 (?) recording of the same work with the same orchestra, one can hear he needed those intervening years to fully grasp this work.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 08, 2019, 03:30:44 AM
Quote from: Herman on November 08, 2019, 12:45:15 AM
This was about the Kondrashin recordings, which I bought when they were quite affordable (on Aulos, I believe a whole bunch of GMG-folk got those fifteen years or so ago). I have been listening to Symphony nr 10 lately, various recordings, and Kondrashin is just outstanding for its drive, and yes for its horn vibrato in the Elmira motiv. I love it, because it's so characteristic, and it is, most likely, what DSCH was used to  -  although one can never be sure about that. Maybe the vibrato came in the post-war years; I have a pretty strong feeling Tchaikovsky was used to a much more delicate way of orchestral playing; otherwise it wouldn'y have made sense to compose things like Sleeping Beauty.

I'm awaiting the Petrenko nr 10 now.

I have a lot of the Haitink recordings, they would in many case be my as if imprint recordings. Their downside is, especially in the Concertgebouw recordings, the huge artificial reverb added by the engineers, just to suggest the Concertgebouw experience. Having been in the Concertgebouw I can honestly say I have never heard the reverb one hears in the recording of DSCH8. Some of these recordings were also rather first-off. For instance, nr 10 was recorded with the London Philharmonic after a 1975 tour to Europe, including Moscow, where Haitink briefly met the composer. Haitink and the orchestra had never played nr 10 before this tour.

One can tell Haitink loves the symphony (also for its many echoes of Tchaikovsky 4) and in a youtube video one can see the conductor reverently putting his flowers on his copy of the score (Haitink is this unique conductor who always hated the applause afterwards). However if one hears the Proms 1986 (?) recording of the same work with the same orchestra, one can hear he needed those intervening years to fully grasp this work.

Most interesting.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on November 09, 2019, 01:46:47 AM
QuoteOne other thing, Soviet (and Eastern European) trumpets have a vibrato in their trumpet playing that Western players do not.  It is very jarring especially to brass players to hear that and you get loads of it in Soviet era recordings.  Add to that, the music is typically so loud that the levels distort.  Fine audio is NOT the strength of these recordings.  But they are a uniquely authentic in their interpretation so worth hearing and preserving for that reason, however, rarely my go to versions.    I prefer sonic and performance clarity over raw power.
Quote from: Herman on November 08, 2019, 12:45:15 AM
This was about the Kondrashin recordings, which I bought when they were quite affordable (on Aulos, I believe a whole bunch of GMG-folk got those fifteen years or so ago). I have been listening to Symphony nr 10 lately, various recordings, and Kondrashin is just outstanding for its drive, and yes for its horn vibrato in the Elmira motiv. I love it, because it's so characteristic, and it is, most likely, what DSCH was used to  -  although one can never be sure about that. ...

Reading this, I thought - DSCH's first symphonic note is a trumpet - the slightly strangled clarion call that opens Symphony No.1 - that HAS to be played with vibrato surely??  In my mind's eye - or mind's ear - it certainly is.  But - checking my three favoured recordings of that symphony (Wigglesworth, Ormandy, Caetani, in no particular order) - only Ormandy's Philadelphia starts out with slight vibrato (and I've commented on the vintage 'Philadelphia sound' before in a more general way).  The other two play it very straight although all three introduce vibrato to greater or lesser degree on the trumpet calls when they are reprised later on in the symphony.
Then I listened to Kondrashin/Moscow (on Spotify) - and even there the opening trumpet note is, well, 'shaped' but not really with much suggestion of wobble.  But boy, does he trample over the rest of that music!  Definitely the worst First 1st I've heard (I stopped at the end of the 1st movement).

On the subject of soviet-era Melodiya sound quality - my eye was caught recently by a High-Res transfer of Stepan Razin (Kondrashin) which is a recording I greatly admire and have on vinyl and needledropped.  Fortunately the vendors offer a try-before-you-buy 2-minute sample of each of their offerings, so I took advantage of this to compare their 24/96 download to my needledrop.  I was surprised and disappointed to find that the 24/96 was seriously compressed dynamically, compared with my vinyl that dates back to when it was first released.  Of course the needledrop has some disadvantages in terms of surface noise, so I was then piqued to investigate the 'standard digital' version available on Spotify.  I recorded the same 2-minute section (illegal, but this was just in a spirit of scientific curiosity) and on comparison this time I found that this clip (from Spotify) has much more dynamic range than the vinyl, as well of course as an absence of clicks and pops (though I find clicks and pops work quite well during the 'fleas' episode   8) ).
Of the three - digital remaster in a 'big box' as lossily streamed by Spotify - high-res digital transfer "from an Angel 4-track" - and my vintage vinyl - the offering on Spotify is clearly and audibly the best.  Obviously, Kondrashin enthusiasts looking for better sound should investigate that 11-CD box set.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41j4f29uZ9L.jpg)

(I should add that I have in the past bought a couple of other high-res remasters of classic recordings from the same vendor - that is HDTT (https://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/), and been reasonably satisfied - results seem variable and it's to their credit that they offer a free sample in each case.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on November 09, 2019, 03:53:43 AM
Quote from: Herman on November 08, 2019, 12:45:15 AM
Haitink and the orchestra had never played nr 10 before this tour.


Self-correction. The London Philharmonic had played DSCH nr 10 in 1955 'under the baton' of Boult.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on November 09, 2019, 04:12:51 AM
As far as one can tell after two listenings the Petrenko recording of nr 10 is just fine.
He keeps the drama a little low in the third movement, so as not to preempt the finale, which is pretty good.

It must be strange to work with an orchestra where almost the entire brass section is composed of men named Simon.
Does one hear they're all British, and not one Eastern European / Russian? One does.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 09, 2019, 07:00:09 AM
Quote from: Herman on November 09, 2019, 04:12:51 AM
As far as one can tell after two listenings the Petrenko recording of nr 10 is just fine.
He keeps the drama a little low in the third movement, so as not to preempt the finale, which is pretty good.

It must be strange to work with an orchestra where almost the entire brass section is composed of men named Simon.
Does one hear they're all British, and not one Eastern European / Russian? One does.

Aye, the Petrenko Tenth is nice.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 10, 2019, 12:11:18 AM
Quote from: Herman on November 09, 2019, 03:53:43 AM
Self-correction. The London Philharmonic had played DSCH nr 10 in 1955 'under the baton' of Boult.

The LPO recorded No.10 with (a very young) Andrew Davis for CFP

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51QI3SHMf2L.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 10, 2019, 06:33:37 AM
Listened to this yesterday, thought it was a very fine performance and recording.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81C%2BK6L0GFL._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on November 12, 2019, 12:18:47 AM
After having Petrenko's Tenth in the CD-player for a couple of days I can say I am quite persuaded by this recording.
It is the one recording I have that brings me to the finale; in other cases I was often satisfied after the 3d movement.
Obviously this means (as I said before) Petrenko de-emphasizes the Tchaikovskean 3d movement a bit so as to preserve listener energy for the finale.
That's a good approach.
At the start I thought "this is not going to be as good as the more spontaneous, liveish recordings of the past." I can't help being aware that a recording like this is made in an endless number of split sessions. However, in listening one is caught up in the long line and its excitement.
Another thing is I do miss the Russian horn playing a bit. The Liverpool woodwinds however are excellent.
Doggone I may try Petrenko's 14th or 15th, too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on November 12, 2019, 02:31:35 AM
If you're choosing, I recommend you go 14th.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on November 12, 2019, 03:18:28 AM
Quote from: Madiel on November 12, 2019, 02:31:35 AM
If you're choosing, I recommend you go 14th.

will do.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on November 12, 2019, 04:51:53 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 10, 2019, 06:33:37 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81C%2BK6L0GFL._SL1200_.jpg)

I wasn't aware of this recording.
When Previn's 1st recording of the 8th was released (also LSO, on EMI) I thought it was an upgrade in every way over the already very good Kondrashin/Moscow recording that I had.  I also very much enjoy the DG '4D' sound (I know a lot of people here don't).  So I'll be looking this one out.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 12, 2019, 05:47:30 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 12, 2019, 04:51:53 AM
I wasn't aware of this recording.
When Previn's 1st recording of the 8th was released (also LSO, on EMI) I thought it was an upgrade in every way over the already very good Kondrashin/Moscow recording that I had.  I also very much enjoy the DG '4D' sound (I know a lot of people here don't).  So I'll be looking this one out.

The Previn LSO version is my favourite of this symphony.
My favourite cover image too:
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 12, 2019, 06:22:41 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 12, 2019, 05:47:30 AM
The Previn LSO version is my favourite of this symphony.
My favourite cover image too:
(//)

Now, I'm confused, is the DG and EMI the same performance?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 12, 2019, 06:26:59 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 12, 2019, 06:22:41 AM
Now, I'm confused, is the DG and EMI the same performance?

No, Previn recorded the 8th twice.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 12, 2019, 06:27:39 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 12, 2019, 06:22:41 AM
Now, I'm confused, is the DG and EMI the same performance?
DGG is a later performance. I prefer the earlier EMI version.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on November 12, 2019, 07:39:46 AM
I have not heard these Previn DSCH recordings. I have often felt that the EMI LSO - Previn recordings were underrehearsed and didn't allow for much relistening, because one increasingly heard sloppy details and iffy ensemble.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 12, 2019, 11:31:49 AM
Quote from: Herman on November 12, 2019, 07:39:46 AM
I have not heard these Previn DSCH recordings. I have often felt that the EMI LSO - Previn recordings were underrehearsed and didn't allow for much relistening, because one increasingly heard sloppy details and iffy ensemble.

Wow..... NEVER heard that said of Previn/LSO before! Can you name a couple of specifics?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 12, 2019, 02:06:58 PM
Quote from: Herman on November 12, 2019, 07:39:46 AM
I have not heard these Previn DSCH recordings. I have often felt that the EMI LSO - Previn recordings were underrehearsed and didn't allow for much relistening, because one increasingly heard sloppy details and iffy ensemble.

A rare moment of inconsistency from what I suspect are two Hurwitz reviews at ClassicsToday, here briefly talking about the DG 8th (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/dgs-mongrel-shostakovich-cycle/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/dgs-mongrel-shostakovich-cycle/?search=1)) and here (during the short(?) period where reviews weren't signed by the author) about the EMI/HMV: https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-7142/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-7142/?search=1).

High points for his Chicago 4th, though, (A "Reference"): https://www.classicstoday.com/review/reference-recording-previns-chicago-shostakovich-4th/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/reference-recording-previns-chicago-shostakovich-4th/?search=1); ditto his LSO/RCA Fifth https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-10332/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-10332/?search=1). Nearly as high marks for 10/13 https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-4134/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-4134/?search=1).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 12, 2019, 02:16:24 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 12, 2019, 02:06:58 PM
A rare moment of inconsistency from what I suspect are two Hurwitz reviews at ClassicsToday, here briefly talking about the DG 8th (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/dgs-mongrel-shostakovich-cycle/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/dgs-mongrel-shostakovich-cycle/?search=1)) and here (during the short(?) period where reviews weren't signed by the author) about the EMI/HMV: https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-7142/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-7142/?search=1).

High points for his Chicago 4th, though, (A "Reference"): https://www.classicstoday.com/review/reference-recording-previns-chicago-shostakovich-4th/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/reference-recording-previns-chicago-shostakovich-4th/?search=1); ditto his LSO/RCA Fifth https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-10332/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-10332/?search=1). Nearly as high marks for 10/13 https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-4134/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-4134/?search=1).

Though I should not call the Previn/CSO Fourth a "reference," it sounds glorious, and is one of my favorites.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 12, 2019, 04:15:12 PM
Quote from: Herman on November 12, 2019, 07:39:46 AM
I have not heard these Previn DSCH recordings. I have often felt that the EMI LSO - Previn recordings were underrehearsed and didn't allow for much relistening, because one increasingly heard sloppy details and iffy ensemble.

I think Previn DSCH No. 8 might be my favorite version (right now at least), it is very well recorded, perfect tempo (slow), and packs a punch when it needs to.  It might displace Haitink/Concertgebouw as my favorite version of the 8th.  A super slow largo which I think works just fine.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 12, 2019, 04:32:24 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 12, 2019, 02:16:24 PM
Though I should not call the Previn/CSO Fourth a "reference," it sounds glorious, and is one of my favorites.

Speaking of the 4th, do you know Rozhdestvensky's performance, Karl? It's simply outstanding.

(https://img.discogs.com/DMcH7dVeSTh29yqc8UXhpnBgFZM=/fit-in/425x425/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-9211357-1476730006-7331.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on November 13, 2019, 01:46:08 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 12, 2019, 02:06:58 PM
ditto his LSO/RCA Fifth https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-10332/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-10332/?search=1).

Recorded 1966.  Still hard to beat.

(https://assets.classicfm.com/2013/27/shostakovich---symphony-no-5-andr-previn-1373300405-view-0.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on November 13, 2019, 02:04:07 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 12, 2019, 06:22:41 AM
Now, I'm confused, is the DG and EMI the same performance?

I haven't heard the DG yet (a used CD in the post I hope) but the timings indicate slower tempi throughout for the remake.
Timings (from Amazon) Shostakovich 8th / Previn :
EMI:    DG:
25:08   27:53
5:53    6:16
5:34    6:08
11.16   15:16
13:23   14:16


Hmm.  Compare and contrast with Caetani, who is always speedy:
20:45
5:52
6:02
7:40   :o
12:20 (excl. applause)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on November 13, 2019, 05:20:24 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 12, 2019, 11:31:49 AM
Wow..... NEVER heard that said of Previn/LSO before! Can you name a couple of specifics?

I used to have a copy of the Tchaikovsky ballets, and liked them just fine, until I started hearing how how uneven the ensemble playing is. I suspect these ballets were recorded in a very short time, just as EMI potboilers.

Really, if a conductor records virtually the entire post 1850 repertoire, and has several other activities (playing cocktail jazz, doing music education on tv, composing film music), one shouldn't be too surprised the occasional note is dropped.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 13, 2019, 06:15:33 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 13, 2019, 02:04:07 AM
I haven't heard the DG yet (a used CD in the post I hope) but the timings indicate slower tempi throughout for the remake.
Timings (from Amazon) Shostakovich 8th / Previn :
EMI:    DG:
25:08   27:53
5:53    6:16
5:34    6:08
11.16   15:16
13:23   14:16


Hmm.  Compare and contrast with Caetani, who is always speedy:
20:45
5:52
6:02
7:40   :o
12:20 (excl. applause)


That's crazy!  Someone needs to give Caetani herbal tea to help him relax.  As I mentioned, I really liked the very slow largo in DG Previn.  It didn't feel like it dragged though it is slow (maybe slowest?) but felt weighty.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 13, 2019, 06:42:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 12, 2019, 04:32:24 PM
Speaking of the 4th, do you know Rozhdestvensky's performance, Karl? It's simply outstanding.

(https://img.discogs.com/DMcH7dVeSTh29yqc8UXhpnBgFZM=/fit-in/425x425/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-9211357-1476730006-7331.jpeg.jpg)

I do miss Olympia as a CD label - so many great/rare Soviet recordings.  I bought all the Rozhdestvensky cycle when they were single Olympia discs.  I loved the performances but dread seeing the name Severin Pazukhin as engineer/producer.  A man for whom the phrase "spot-lit" recording was a way of life.  I struggle to hear beyond a suddenly elephantine flute or channel-hopping horn to the music beyond.  That said the soviet sound is still there in that orchestra and for that I will always value them.  A "sleeper" in No.4 recordings is Daniel Raiskin with the Rheinische Philharmonie.

There's also a "live" Rozhdestvensky which is pretty overwhelming as well......

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51nyJqC3arL.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 13, 2019, 07:14:38 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 12, 2019, 04:32:24 PM
Speaking of the 4th, do you know Rozhdestvensky's performance, Karl? It's simply outstanding.

(https://img.discogs.com/DMcH7dVeSTh29yqc8UXhpnBgFZM=/fit-in/425x425/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-9211357-1476730006-7331.jpeg.jpg)

No, I don't believe I know it, John.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 13, 2019, 08:50:17 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 13, 2019, 07:14:38 AM
No, I don't believe I know it, John.

Please give this a listen when you can find the time:

https://www.youtube.com/v/CP-OJTOJHZU
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 14, 2019, 05:20:40 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2019, 08:50:17 AM
Please give this a listen when you can find the time:

https://www.youtube.com/v/CP-OJTOJHZU

Oh my god.  I REALLY loved this performance.  It actually brought me to tears it was so moving.  Damn that was good.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 14, 2019, 07:10:16 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 14, 2019, 05:20:40 PM
Oh my god.  I REALLY loved this performance.  It actually brought me to tears it was so moving.  Damn that was good.

Glad you enjoyed it, relm1. 8) I have been hooked on Rozhdestvensky's Shostakovich ever since I splurged and bought his cycle of the symphonies (one of the more expensive sets I've bought, but it was worth every penny).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 15, 2019, 03:38:23 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 14, 2019, 07:10:16 PM
Glad you enjoyed it, relm1. 8) I have been hooked on Rozhdestvensky's Shostakovich ever since I splurged and bought his cycle of the symphonies (one of the more expensive sets I've bought, but it was worth every penny).

Quick note - I also really like Rozhdestvensky's Shostakovich but for the sake of clarity; the YouTube linked performance here is the LIVE recording I referenced in the archive set before NOT the studio recording that Mirror Image is discussing/showing as part of the Olympia/RCA cycle.  They ARE very similar technically and musically  - the live recording a fraction faster.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 15, 2019, 07:03:38 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 15, 2019, 03:38:23 AM
Quick note - I also really like Rozhdestvensky's Shostakovich but for the sake of clarity; the YouTube linked performance here is the LIVE recording I referenced in the archive set before NOT the studio recording that Mirror Image is discussing/showing as part of the Olympia/RCA cycle.  They ARE very similar technically and musically  - the live recording a fraction faster.

Thanks for the clarification, Roasted Swan. 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on November 16, 2019, 05:53:02 AM
Rozhdestvensky is one of the small handful of conductors I've actually seen live in concert.  (Boult, Haitink, Britten, Rozhdestvensky, Downes, Handley, Sanderling - that's about it.)  The band he had at his disposal was the Leningrad PO, playing Tchaikovsky, the 4th Symphony I think.
I remember him as being a smallish man (or maybe I was just a very long way away  ;D ) and a manic arm-waver and leaper-about.  These antics appeared to have little effect on the Leningraders, who were drilled to the nth degree with all bowing etc completely matched up in unison, stony-faced, unbending, machine-like.  Something of a mis-match - or maybe they were complementary to each other - I dunno.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on November 16, 2019, 11:16:07 AM
It may be a cultural thing. In my experience Russian orchestra musicians, esp string players, seem to be quite impassive, usually sitting kind of laidback. I think this is because a lot of Russian musicians have internalized their experience playing in the opera pit, where the audience can't see.

Many Western orchestras, especially those with a lot of younger members, tend to look much more energized, because they want the audience to see they are into it.

The stereotypical Russian musician doesn't care about that.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 16, 2019, 12:33:41 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 16, 2019, 05:53:02 AM
Rozhdestvensky is one of the small handful of conductors I've actually seen live in concert.  (Boult, Haitink, Britten, Rozhdestvensky, Downes, Handley, Sanderling - that's about it.)  The band he had at his disposal was the Leningrad PO, playing Tchaikovsky, the 4th Symphony I think.
I remember him as being a smallish man (or maybe I was just a very long way away  ;D ) and a manic arm-waver and leaper-about.  These antics appeared to have little effect on the Leningraders, who were drilled to the nth degree with all bowing etc completely matched up in unison, stony-faced, unbending, machine-like.  Something of a mis-match - or maybe they were complementary to each other - I dunno.

My memory of seeing Rozhdestvensky live was quite different - short for sure but he used a very long baton and his gestures were quite minimal - literally a flick of the wrist and even just a raised eyebrow!  But never a doubt who was in control.  Interestingly I saw the Moscow PO live recently with Yuri Simonov.  He's a seriously good conductor but also a big showman who knows how to entertain an audience - even as the band sat there (playing very well) will complete impassivity!

I've spent my entire professional career playing in British orchestras - never ONCE have I ever heard the opinion that we should move around a bit so the audience see we are "into it".  If you share a music stand with someone who likes to wave around like a tree in a storm its a bloomin' pain as half the time they're obscuring the music.  Most section leaders would not expect players behind them to wave around as it distracts.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 16, 2019, 04:41:33 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 16, 2019, 12:33:41 PM
My memory of seeing Rozhdestvensky live was quite different - short for sure but he used a very long baton and his gestures were quite minimal - literally a flick of the wrist and even just a raised eyebrow!  But never a doubt who was in control.  Interestingly I saw the Moscow PO live recently with Yuri Simonov.  He's a seriously good conductor but also a big showman who knows how to entertain an audience - even as the band sat there (playing very well) will complete impassivity!

I've spent my entire professional career playing in British orchestras - never ONCE have I ever heard the opinion that we should move around a bit so the audience see we are "into it".  If you share a music stand with someone who likes to wave around like a tree in a storm its a bloomin' pain as half the time they're obscuring the music.  Most section leaders would not expect players behind them to wave around as it distracts.

You know who is tiny?  Ashkenazy.  I first saw him live at the premiere of Scriabin/Nemtin Mysterium in front of two hundred performers and he seriously looked like a hobbit. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on November 17, 2019, 01:57:44 AM
Quote from: Herman on November 16, 2019, 11:16:07 AM
Many Western orchestras, especially those with a lot of younger members, tend to look much more energized, because they want the audience to see they are into it.

All those strings players, leaning into their notes - I worry they'll put someone's eye out!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on November 25, 2019, 03:03:30 PM
I was revisiting the 15th from this set the other day:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61PGxgx6OUL._SY355_.jpg)

No doubts this is a major work. If there is an utterly enigmatic work by a Soviet composer, it has to be this. The eeriness that permeates the piece helped by its unique orchestration make it a fascinating psychological journey through the composer's style.

For haters (if there were some) of the bombastic Shostakovich, this work may offer a different approach to his style.

For me it's one of those works that give more questions than answers. It easily be my favorite Shostakovich symphony for now.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 25, 2019, 03:51:45 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 25, 2019, 03:03:30 PM
I was revisiting the 15th from this set the other day:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61PGxgx6OUL._SY355_.jpg)

No doubts this is a major work. If there is an utterly enigmatic work by a Soviet composer, it has to be this. The eeriness that permeates the piece helped by its unique orchestration make it a fascinating psychological journey through the composer's style.

For haters (if there were some) of the bombastic Shostakovich, this work may offer a different approach to his style.

For me it's one of those works that give more questions than answers. It easily be my favorite Shostakovich symphony for now.

Yes! I love the 15th and what's interesting is to listen to this symphony and follow it up with String Quartet No. 15. Both works are quite enigmatic for sure, for me, this is a part of their allure.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on November 25, 2019, 04:07:10 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 25, 2019, 03:51:45 PM
Yes! I love the 15th and what's interesting is to listen to this symphony and follow it up with String Quartet No. 15. Both works are quite enigmatic for sure, for me, this is a part of their allure.

A tremendous couple for sure. The SQ may even be more intriguing than the Symphony. Definitely his late style packs a lot of mystery I find nothing less than fascinating.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on November 29, 2019, 06:11:25 AM
Quote from: Madiel on November 12, 2019, 02:31:35 AM
If you're choosing, I recommend you go 14th.

Speking of nr 14, I don't understand why Fischer-Dieskau was ever allowed close to this work. I have two recordings with him singing, with Haitink and with Bertini and his singing is really terrible in its mannerisms.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 29, 2019, 06:28:44 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 25, 2019, 04:07:10 PMA tremendous couple for sure. The SQ may even be more intriguing than the Symphony. Definitely his late style packs a lot of mystery I find nothing less than fascinating.

Yes, indeed. Shostakovich's SQs, in general, are an incredible body of work. I still come back to these works with great frequency. I'd like to get more familiar with some of the symphonies that I don't know too well like the 13th and 14th. I remember the 13th ('Babi Yar') knocking my socks off the last time I heard it. The 14th was a harder sell, but I'm beginning to appreciate it more and more.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on November 29, 2019, 08:01:15 AM
I listened to the "Babi Yar" earlier, for the first time in a little while. While the arrival of B flat major for the finale feels more positive than the rest of the symphony, it still feels very clouded over by something, I don't know what. And the final touch of the bell stroke to bring us full circle right at the very end.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 29, 2019, 10:15:49 AM
Quote from: Herman on November 29, 2019, 06:11:25 AM
Speking of nr 14, I don't understand why Fischer-Dieskau was ever allowed close to this work. I have two recordings with him singing, with Haitink and with Bertini and his singing is really terrible in its mannerisms.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on November 29, 2019, 02:03:20 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 29, 2019, 06:28:44 AM
Yes, indeed. Shostakovich's SQs, in general, are an incredible body of work. I still come back to these works with great frequency. I'd like to get more familiar with some of the symphonies that I don't know too well like the 13th and 14th. I remember the 13th ('Babi Yar') knocking my socks off the last time I heard it. The 14th was a harder sell, but I'm beginning to appreciate it more and more.

The 14th is still too elusive for me. I haven't heard the right performance of it yet, I think.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 29, 2019, 07:03:33 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 29, 2019, 02:03:20 PM
The 14th is still too elusive for me. I haven't heard the right performance of it yet, I think.

It's one that has given me some trouble as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on November 30, 2019, 12:39:05 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 29, 2019, 02:03:20 PM
The 14th is still too elusive for me. I haven't heard the right performance of it yet, I think.

It's kind of hard to hold the entire piece together, in the studio. DSCH's late works have a really substantial 'theatrical' or 'dramatic' element (think of the opening pages of the Viola Sonata) that is hard to reproduce on a cold record in a living room in nowheresville.
There is a performative tension that needs to make the listener part of the music. This is why the Viola Sonata or the SQ 15 have occasionally so little to offer in terms of notes, but a lot in musical drama.
SQ14 is quite profuse in comparison, it's almost like a big bunch of arias, and yet the same principle is at work.
I like the Pacifica version.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on November 30, 2019, 01:14:26 AM
I read comments above on individual string quartets with great interest. The link below I find an invaluable tool for exploring this body of work.

http://www.quartets.de/
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 04:39:46 AM
I have been receptive to the music of Shostakovich lately. The first violin concerto blew me away when I heard it the other day. Additionally I have been dipping into my complete string quartets set from the Pacifica Quartet, an amazing cycle which also contains a few quartets by such other Soviet composers as Schnittke, Prokofiev, Myaskovsky, and Weinberg. I especially love the 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th quartets. I can't believe how many great ones he wrote.

The symphonies have been more elusive to me. I have listened to numerous times and enjoyed the 5th, I have seen the 7th live in concert but never listened to it again after that (it was pretty good, but one has to be in a mood for it), I really enjoy the 9th, and I've heard the 10th and found it very interesting, but I think I have a bad recording (Frank Shipway/Royal Philharmonic; it struck me as quite pedestrian the last time I listened). So what I think I need is a halfway decent complete set of the symphonies to work through. I'm down to three choices: Rostropovich on Warner, V. Petrenko on Naxos, and Barshai on Brilliant. Does anyone have any of these sets and care to comment on them? Another I am curious about is the newer Michael Sanderling set, but I know nothing of the conductor other than that his father Kurt was a great conductor.

Furthermore, I need to get my hands on the cello concerti. I'm thinking of getting the Naxos disc with Maria Kliegel and Antoni Wit, as I'm a big fan of conductor and soloist alike – either that, or Heinrich Schiff/Maxim Shostakovich which also looks excellent. Has anyone been listening to these works lately? Do you have a favorite recording?

I don't always love the music of Shostakovich, but it has been sounding just right lately.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: staxomega on December 28, 2019, 04:54:47 AM
I really like Rostropovich with both Cello Concerti. For the first there is a recording with Ormandy and the second with Ozawa. For the first Cello Concerto there is a CD that combines it with Shostakovich's Violin Concerto with Oistrakh/Mitropoulos and that is also a phenomenal performance.

How is the sound quality on the Pacifica set? I have been making my way through Borodin's first cycle (Chandos) again after my interest in these quartets have been reignited with Danel's cycle and I am disappointed that the Borodin Chandos sounds like it was sourced from vinyl. I never noticed this before, but I've become much more attuned to these sort of things over the years  :-X
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 05:00:46 AM
Quote from: hvbias on December 28, 2019, 04:54:47 AM
I really like Rostropovich with both Cello Concerti. For the first there is a recording with Ormandy and the second with Ozawa. For the first Cello Concerto there is a CD that combines it with Shostakovich's Violin Concerto with Oistrakh/Mitropoulos and that is also a phenomenal performance.

How is the sound quality on the Pacifica set? I have been making my way through Borodin's first cycle (Chandos) again after my interest in these quartets have been reignited with Danel's cycle and I am disappointed that the Borodin Chandos sounds like it was sourced from vinyl. I never noticed this before, but I've become much more attuned to these sort of things over the years  :-X

Awesome, thanks. I've found the disc you mention with the cello and violin concerti, on Sony/Masterworks Heritage. Looks excellent, I will probably be picking it up.

The sound on the Pacifica set is amazing, to my ears. Crisp, clear, just the right amount of reverb. Great DDD sound. I couldn't be happier with it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 28, 2019, 05:08:48 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 04:39:46 AM
I have been receptive to the music of Shostakovich lately. The first violin concerto blew me away when I heard it the other day. Additionally I have been dipping into my complete string quartets set from the Pacifica Quartet, an amazing cycle which also contains a few quartets by such other Soviet composers as Schnittke, Prokofiev, Myaskovsky, and Weinberg. I especially love the 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th quartets. I can't believe how many great ones he wrote.

The symphonies have been more elusive to me. I have listened to numerous times and enjoyed the 5th, I have seen the 7th live in concert but never listened to it again after that (it was pretty good, but one has to be in a mood for it), I really enjoy the 9th, and I've heard the 10th and found it very interesting, but I think I have a bad recording (Frank Shipway/Royal Philharmonic; it struck me as quite pedestrian the last time I listened). So what I think I need is a halfway decent complete set of the symphonies to work through. I'm down to three choices: Rostropovich on Warner, V. Petrenko on Naxos, and Barshai on Brilliant. Does anyone have any of these sets and care to comment on them? Another I am curious about is the newer Michael Sanderling set, but I know nothing of the conductor other than that his father Kurt was a great conductor.

Furthermore, I need to get my hands on the cello concerti. I'm thinking of getting the Naxos disc with Maria Kliegel and Antoni Wit, as I'm a big fan of conductor and soloist alike – either that, or Heinrich Schiff/Maxim Shostakovich which also looks excellent. Has anyone been listening to these works lately? Do you have a favorite recording?

I don't always love the music of Shostakovich, but it has been sounding just right lately.

For the complete concerti I was very impressed a couple of years back by this;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71ju3i5DvpL._SS500_.jpg)

6 different young but brilliant Eastern European soloists with an orchestra who have more than a hint of old-school soviet bite to them.  Unusual too because I think its just about the only complete set with a single conductor/orchestra.  The same artists' symphony cycle is very good too but prohibitively expensive at the moment.  I like the Barshai - and its a tremendous bargain but to be fair I don't know the Petrenko in comparison.  My go-to complete cycles are Kitajenko, Caetani and Rozhdestvensky.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: staxomega on December 28, 2019, 05:11:18 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 05:00:46 AM
Awesome, thanks. I've found the disc you mention with the cello and violin concerti, on Sony/Masterworks Heritage. Looks excellent, I will probably be picking it up.

The sound on the Pacifica set is amazing, to my ears. Crisp, clear, just the right amount of reverb. Great DDD sound. I couldn't be happier with it.

Great, thanks! I have heard one other opinion of Pacifica's being great performances as well, it will be the next I explore. I listened to his second string quartet a few times this week. It might be my favorite "2nd" from all the various composers string quartets.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 05:24:54 AM
Quote from: hvbias on December 28, 2019, 05:11:18 AM
Great, thanks! I have heard one other opinion of Pacifica's being great performances as well, it will be the next I explore. I listened to his second string quartet a few times this week. It might be my favorite "2nd" from all the various composers string quartets.
Even Prokofiev's 2nd? That's a great one, also included in the Pacifica box. Or Ligeti's 2nd?  ;D

Shostakovich wrote maybe the greatest and most cohesive body of works in the string quartet genre of the whole 20th century (after Bartók, obviously). A wonderful cycle of works... though I still find about half of them impenetrable. There's enough there to sort through over a lifetime.

Anyway, yes, I highly recommend the Pacifica set.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: staxomega on December 28, 2019, 06:26:13 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 05:24:54 AM
Even Prokofiev's 2nd? That's a great one, also included in the Pacifica box. Or Ligeti's 2nd?  ;D

Yeah more than both, I really like the journey of Shostakovich's 2nd. To me it's like they story of someone traveling across the country side.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 06:40:50 AM
Quote from: hvbias on December 28, 2019, 06:26:13 AM
Yeah more than both, I really like the journey of Shostakovich's 2nd. To me it's like they story of someone traveling across the country side.
Sounds awesome! I'll have to listen to it ASAP, later today perhaps.

I ended up ordering the Rostropovich/Oistrakh disc with the cello concerti. Very excited to hear it!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on December 28, 2019, 09:17:56 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 05:24:54 AM
Even Prokofiev's 2nd? That's a great one, also included in the Pacifica box. Or Ligeti's 2nd?  ;D

Shostakovich wrote maybe the greatest and most cohesive body of works in the string quartet genre of the whole 20th century (after Bartók, obviously). A wonderful cycle of works... though I still find about half of them impenetrable. There's enough there to sort through over a lifetime.

Anyway, yes, I highly recommend the Pacifica set.

Not obviously — or at all, really.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on December 28, 2019, 09:28:39 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 04:39:46 AM
The symphonies have been more elusive to me. I have listened to numerous times and enjoyed the 5th, I have seen the 7th live in concert but never listened to it again after that (it was pretty good, but one has to be in a mood for it), I really enjoy the 9th, and I've heard the 10th and found it very interesting ... So what I think I need is a halfway decent complete set of the symphonies to work through. I'm down to three choices: Rostropovich on Warner, V. Petrenko on Naxos, and Barshai on Brilliant. Does anyone have any of these sets and care to comment on them?

Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 28, 2019, 05:08:48 AM
(Sladkovsky)  The same artists' symphony cycle is very good too but prohibitively expensive at the moment.  I like the Barshai - and its a tremendous bargain but to be fair I don't know the Petrenko in comparison.  My go-to complete cycles are Kitajenko, Caetani and Rozhdestvensky.

The Sladkovsky symphony cycle can be found on Spotify, and so can the Kondrashin cycle.  Both are recommendable with that Soviet edge (or a pale echo in Sladkovsky's case) which I think is essential to most Shostakovich.  Barshai has that too, and his Shostakovich credentials are impeccable (he has orchestrated some of the quartets as 'chamber symphonies' - with dubious results).  Likewise the Rostropovich Cello Concerto 1 - even though it was recorded in the US with a US orchestra - the concerto was written for him, he was at the height of his powers when he recorded it, and Ormandy, the Philadelphia and the CBS engineers all rose to the occasion, there really is no need to look anywhere else in this music.  His recording of the 2nd with Ozawa I find much less compelling.

With Oistrakh it's a bit more difficult - even more so than Rostropovich he is self-recommending in the Violin Concerto No.1 for the same reasons, however I'm not aware of a stereo recording that really does him or the music justice.  (Mitropoulos is in mono, there are some stereo recordings of Oistrakh/VC1 but they all sound pretty muddy to me.)  So - although I think it's fascinating to watch archive footage of Oistrakh on YouTube, he plays to all appearance like a machine - a socialist-realist performance - but to wonderful effect - I think a modern coupling of the violin concertos such as Vengerov or Tetzlaff is a safer bet.

Just because a composer has a big and varied output, doesn't mean you have to like it all.  Whether it's Beethoven or Bach, DSCH or Glass - we're all free to pick and choose those bits we like the best, and disregard the rest.  I've enjoyed Shostakovich since 1961 when that Rostropovich recording was first released - I grabbed Previn's first recording of the 5th symphony as soon as it came out later in the '60s - I can remember eagerly awaiting the premiere (on the radio) of DSCH's 11th symphony - that's how long I've been listening to this stuff - and yet I only ever listen to 8 of the 15 symphonies - of the rest, I consider three of them to be total duds (2, 3 and 12) and the other four just not my cup of tea.  The other concertos (both piano, and all the No.2) are also pretty optional, for me.

I find most of the String Quartets a bit too challenging, apart from the too-popular No.8 (which many on GMG seem to despise for some reason).  However here are a few more Shostakovich pieces that I do think very worth exploring:
Piano Trio No.2
Piano Quintet
Cello Sonata
These three can all be found on Spotify with the composer playing the piano, found under 'Shostakovich plays Shostakovich'.  Soviet recordings from the '60s, so not bad sound. Though personally I prefer other more recent recordings.
The Execution of Stepan Razin (a 'cantata' for soloists, choir and orchestra - it's on that Kondrashin virtual box set - by far rhe best version)
and of course, most of all -
24 Preludes & Fugues Op.87 (solo piano)  composed for Tatiana Nikolayeva who has recorded them twice, the 2nd recording on Hyperion is a classic (the 1st CD(s) I ever bought), though it is often said that she was past her best by then.  Jenny Lin is my other top recommendation here.


Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: staxomega on December 28, 2019, 09:54:03 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on December 28, 2019, 09:28:39 AM

24 Preludes & Fugues Op.87 (solo piano)  composed for Tatiana Nikolayeva who has recorded them twice, the 2nd recording on Hyperion is a classic (the 1st CD(s) I ever bought), though it is often said that she was past her best by then.

While her performances of Op. 87 aren't as bad as Op. 34 on Hyperion I still find them lacking and belabored. Her Melodiya recording is slightly better, but the Hyperion is in superior sound. I highly doubt either recording is the Nikolayeva that Shostakovich would have heard perform them. Going by her earlier recordings of other music she did possess fine skill in her earlier years.

My reference for Op. 87 is Konstantin Scherbakov.

I haven't heard an Oistrakh recording of Shostakovich's first Violin Concerto in reference level sound. Has anyone heard this one? BBC engineered recordings are usually alright.

(https://img.discogs.com/Pkdn5jx_w7Yb9OqfAexv298nnr8=/fit-in/600x592/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8526342-1463394616-5491.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 10:02:15 AM
Quote from: BasilValentine on December 28, 2019, 09:17:56 AM
Not obviously — or at all, really.
You didn't think it was an obvious choice? Like them or not, Bartók's is a VERY popular cycle of string quartets. It's a cliché to call them one of the best.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on December 28, 2019, 10:30:33 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 10:02:15 AM
You didn't think it was an obvious choice? Like them or not, Bartók's is a VERY popular cycle of string quartets. It's a cliché to call them one of the best.

I like Bartok's a lot. Just saying it's not obvious they are greater or more cohesive than Shostakovich's.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 11:28:01 AM
Quote from: BasilValentine on December 28, 2019, 10:30:33 AM
I like Bartok's a lot. Just saying it's not obvious they are greater or more cohesive than Shostakovich's.

Ah, I see. I guess I will need to familiarize myself more with the Shostakovich quartets then. I know there are those out there who say that Shosty is not even in the same league as Bartók when it comes to string quartets, and I would definitely disagree with that.

@hvbias, really?! You've turned everything I know about op.87 on its head. From all I gather, Nikolayeva's Hyperion recording is a classic. I thought she was in great form there from what little I've heard. Is it really that bad? As for Scherbakov, I'm somewhat of a fan of his, and I was considering going for his recording as well. I will have to do a little comparing and contrasting. I wish Richter had recorded more of them, those he did record are amazing. I once heard about a famous exchange between Shostakovich and Richter in which composer asked pianist to perform the entire cycle of preludes and fugues, to which Richter dismissively responded something along the lines of "what, even the ones I don't like?"  ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on December 28, 2019, 12:24:42 PM
The symphony box set I ended up picking for myself when I went through the process of choosing a set is Petrenko.

I like his ability to control the structure of the big movements (of which there are many) so that they sound like a coherent whole rather than a bunch of episodes.

I think the series deserves the strongly positive reviews it got (there are only a couple of symphonies where it's not quite as good, which is a pretty fine strike rate out of 15, and most of them I find very satisfying). I know not everyone here agrees though. You won't get wild unhinged Russianness. But you will get symphonies that sound like symphonies, and some fiercely good playing.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on December 28, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
For the cello concertos there seem to be quite a few good ones around. The one I ended up with is Alisa Weilerstein.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Alek Hidell on December 28, 2019, 12:59:17 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 04:39:46 AM
The symphonies have been more elusive to me. I have listened to numerous times and enjoyed the 5th, I have seen the 7th live in concert but never listened to it again after that (it was pretty good, but one has to be in a mood for it), I really enjoy the 9th, and I've heard the 10th and found it very interesting, but I think I have a bad recording (Frank Shipway/Royal Philharmonic; it struck me as quite pedestrian the last time I listened). So what I think I need is a halfway decent complete set of the symphonies to work through. I'm down to three choices: Rostropovich on Warner, V. Petrenko on Naxos, and Barshai on Brilliant. Does anyone have any of these sets and care to comment on them? Another I am curious about is the newer Michael Sanderling set, but I know nothing of the conductor other than that his father Kurt was a great conductor.

I have the Petrenko and, like Madiel, am quite happy with it. But I also own (and enjoy) the Haitink set - is there a reason why you've eliminated it from consideration?

Re: Nikolayeva, I believe she recorded the Op.87 three times - once in the '60s (?), in 1987, and in '91. Of the three, it's generally the 1987 recording that's considered the best - and it's my go-to set, although I also enjoy Melnikov's. (I found myself rather indifferent to Ashkenazy's, and I have not heard some others that have been praised here, like Scherbakov's or Rubackyte's.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 01:03:50 PM
Quote from: Alek Hidell on December 28, 2019, 12:59:17 PM
I have the Petrenko and, like Madiel, am quite happy with it. But I also own (and enjoy) the Haitink set - is there a reason why you've eliminated it from consideration?
Only the most superficial reasons; namely (a), that Haitink is not Russian and (b), that I forgot it existed and was a highly praised set.  ;D Looking into it now, it appears a tier higher in expense compared to the other cycles in my consideration. In any case I'll have to at least sample it before ruling it out entirely!

For whom did Ms. Nikolayeva record op.87 in '87? I've only seen the older Melodiya and the newer Hyperion around. Edit: I think I found it...:

[asin]B00UJNWVJG[/asin]

Going for cheap too! Going to sample this one, may be the one to get. Good call!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 01:43:48 PM
Quote from: hvbias on December 28, 2019, 06:26:13 AM
Yeah more than both, I really like the journey of Shostakovich's 2nd. To me it's like they story of someone traveling across the country side.
I wanted to thank you for putting me onto the 2nd quartet – I just finished listening to it and I enjoyed it very, very much! What an amazing work of chamber music... that finale blew me away!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Alek Hidell on December 28, 2019, 02:22:59 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 01:03:50 PM
For whom did Ms. Nikolayeva record op.87 in '87? I've only seen the older Melodiya and the newer Hyperion around. Edit: I think I found it...:

[asin]B00UJNWVJG[/asin]

Going for cheap too! Going to sample this one, may be the one to get. Good call!

Yes, judging by the back cover, that's the one. The front cover could lead one to believe it's the first traversal, but evidently it isn't. The '87 set has had several iterations:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71UhqTrCwpL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/614%2BbFr%2BnvL.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 03:39:50 PM
^I listened to a few samples from the set I posted. Very promising. I loved what I was hearing. One thing I'll say is that she takes the music slower than anyone else I've heard. But I don't see this as necessarily bad (or good) for that matter...

I listened to the first Shostakovich piano sonata while driving earlier, with Lilya Zilberstein playing, via Apple Music. Wow!! What a piece. Unfortunately the CD of her playing it is prohibitively expensive at the moment. Is anyone a fan of this work? I'd love to get it on CD but don't know which ones are supposed to be good.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: staxomega on December 28, 2019, 03:52:15 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 11:28:01 AM
Ah, I see. I guess I will need to familiarize myself more with the Shostakovich quartets then. I know there are those out there who say that Shosty is not even in the same league as Bartók when it comes to string quartets, and I would definitely disagree with that.

@hvbias, really?! You've turned everything I know about op.87 on its head. From all I gather, Nikolayeva's Hyperion recording is a classic. I thought she was in great form there from what little I've heard. Is it really that bad? As for Scherbakov, I'm somewhat of a fan of his, and I was considering going for his recording as well. I will have to do a little comparing and contrasting. I wish Richter had recorded more of them, those he did record are amazing. I once heard about a famous exchange between Shostakovich and Richter in which composer asked pianist to perform the entire cycle of preludes and fugues, to which Richter dismissively responded something along the lines of "what, even the ones I don't like?"  ;D

On the first paragraph Bartok had the great advantage of only writing six, IMHO they are all at an extremely high level.

Since you mentioned your girlfriend played piano I am curious as to what she thinks of Nikolayeva's Hyperion recording? I suppose I am being extra critical for a couple of reasons, playing piano at one point years ago and poring over the scores and listening to numerous interpretations. And on the former, thus making it so I can hear some things pianists do when their technique is faltering, and these sort of decisions not interpretive/artistic related. I'm a bit obsessed with Op. 87... the work has some flaws yet I'm always drawn to it.

That does seem like the most Richter thing to say, I really wish he would have recorded all of them.

Boris Petrushansky will be the next one I really throw myself into listening to, I have only heard it non-seriously.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51--trpTUML.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 04:10:12 PM
Quote from: hvbias on December 28, 2019, 03:52:15 PM
On the first paragraph Bartok had the great advantage of only writing six, IMHO they are all at an extremely high level.

Since you mentioned your girlfriend played piano I am curious as to what she thinks of Nikolayeva's Hyperion recording? I suppose I am being extra critical for a couple of reasons, playing piano at one point years ago and poring over the scores and listening to numerous interpretations. And on the former, thus making it so I can hear some things pianists do when their technique is faltering, and these sort of decisions not interpretive/artistic related. I'm a bit obsessed with Op. 87... the work has some flaws yet I'm always drawn to it.

That does seem like the most Richter thing to say, I really wish he would have recorded all of them.

Boris Petrushansky will be the next one I really throw myself into listening to, I have only heard it non-seriously.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51--trpTUML.jpg)

I'll have to show her some time, I don't know if she's heard it. But she does like Ms. Nikolayeva's Bach, and her favorite pianists are Maria Yudina and Alfred Cortot, so it would seem that she is the kind of person that values interpretive originality over pristine technique. Of course, it could always be the case that a pianist has neither.  ;D I'm a beginner-intermediate piano player myself but I'm in no place to critique anyone's technique.

What are some of the problems you hear in her Hyperion recording of op.87? Are there actual mistakes, wrong notes and the like, or is it more subtle than that, ie. poor phrasing, articulation etc? Just out of curiosity as she is still the front runner for me, though I am leaning toward one of the older recordings now.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on December 28, 2019, 04:14:05 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 03:39:50 PM
^I listened to a few samples from the set I posted. Very promising. I loved what I was hearing. One thing I'll say is that she takes the music slower than anyone else I've heard. But I don't see this as necessarily bad (or good) for that matter...

I listened to the first Shostakovich piano sonata while driving earlier, with Lilya Zilberstein playing, via Apple Music. Wow!! What a piece. Unfortunately the CD of her playing it is prohibitively expensive at the moment. Is anyone a fan of this work? I'd love to get it on CD but don't know which ones are supposed to be good.

I bought Melvin Chen's CD recently. He plays the hell out of the 1st sonata.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 04:16:23 PM
Quote from: Madiel on December 28, 2019, 04:14:05 PM
I bought Melvin Chen's CD recently. He plays the hell out of the 1st sonata.
I'm totally unfamiliar with Melvin Chen, so thanks for the heads up. I'll check it out!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on December 28, 2019, 04:30:08 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 04:16:23 PM
I'm totally unfamiliar with Melvin Chen, so thanks for the heads up. I'll check it out!

As was I. I think he's only recorded a handful of albums. But the reviews were glowing.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on December 28, 2019, 04:33:49 PM
Also, there's a VERY recent Hyperion album by Andrey Gugnin that is getting good reviews.

So recent, I think, that it might not have been released when I bought Chen earlier this year.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on December 29, 2019, 01:35:02 AM
A to the symphonies, I think the Kondrashin set is essential. Not necessarily as the only set, but kind of like the base.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on December 29, 2019, 05:37:04 AM
Quote from: Herman on December 29, 2019, 01:35:02 AM
A to the symphonies, I think the Kondrashin set is essential. Not necessarily as the only set, but kind of like the base.
Very expensive, though, isn't it?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on December 29, 2019, 06:22:50 AM
Quote from: hvbias on December 28, 2019, 09:54:03 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/Pkdn5jx_w7Yb9OqfAexv298nnr8=/fit-in/600x592/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8526342-1463394616-5491.jpeg.jpg)

Muddy sound, unfortunately.

Quote from: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 01:03:50 PM
Only the most superficial reasons; namely (a), that Haitink is not Russian and (b), that I forgot it existed and was a highly praised set.  ;D Looking into it now, it appears a tier higher in expense compared to the other cycles in my consideration. In any case I'll have to at least sample it before ruling it out entirely!

I deliberately avoided mentioning the Haitink cycle to prevent a firestorm  ;)
I completely admire Haitink and if he is un-idiomatic in Shostakovich I suppose it is no more than Previn, who made a few excellent Shostakovich recordings (but no cycle).  Back in the day when the only real competition was between Haitink on Decca and the assorted soviets on Melodiya with indifferent sound**, obviously Haitink was a very strong recommendation.  But I think he's uncompetitive now - too westernised - OK in theory for the 5th and the 10th but not for the rest.

** indifferent on the original vinyl releases - I think recent transfers have greatly improved these recordings though.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on December 29, 2019, 06:51:10 AM
I'm really leaning toward the Petrenko now. I love what I've heard (movements from the 10th, 8th, 4th, etc...) – and I'm also a big time Naxos fanboy.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on December 29, 2019, 07:15:17 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 11:28:01 AM
Ah, I see. I guess I will need to familiarize myself more with the Shostakovich quartets then. I know there are those out there who say that Shosty is not even in the same league as Bartók when it comes to string quartets, and I would definitely disagree with that.

It's been argued that the Shostakovich quartets are an incomplete cycle - since each of the 15 is in a different key signature leaving 9 more to go ... it's even been predicted in which order of keys the remainder would have been composed (eg No.16 would have been in G sharp minor, 17 in E major, etc).
This website (http://www.quartets.de/) discusses this among a lot of other fascinating insight into the String Quartets - some of it is very interesting.

I think DSCH is one composer where it's really interesting to get a handle on the timeline of his various compositions, to compare with the other stuff that was going on in his life and the volatile political climate he was working in.  For instance, the Cello Concerto and Quartets 7 & 8 are almost concurrent (1959-1960) and share lots of thematic material.  All peak DSCH and in stark contrast to the awful Symphony No.12 that appeared a year later.  Or, the Quartet No.2 that you've recently been listening to, was composed during WWII and fell between Symphonies 8 and 9 - that's rather startling - the Quartets from here on are all pretty 'late' works, especially compared with his symphonic output.  A bit similar to Beethoven there.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on December 29, 2019, 07:34:36 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on December 29, 2019, 07:15:17 AM
It's been argued that the Shostakovich quartets are an incomplete cycle - since each of the 15 is in a different key signature leaving 9 more to go ... it's even been predicted in which order of keys the remainder would have been composed (eg No.16 would have been in G sharp minor, 17 in E major, etc).
This website (http://www.quartets.de/) discusses this among a lot of other fascinating insight into the String Quartets - some of it is very interesting.

I think DSCH is one composer where it's really interesting to get a handle on the timeline of his various compositions, to compare with the other stuff that was going on in his life and the volatile political climate he was working in.  For instance, the Cello Concerto and Quartets 7 & 8 are almost concurrent (1959-1960) and share lots of thematic material.  All peak DSCH and in stark contrast to the awful Symphony No.12 that appeared a year later.  Or, the Quartet No.2 that you've recently been listening to, was composed during WWII and fell between Symphonies 8 and 9 - that's rather startling - the Quartets from here on are all pretty 'late' works, especially compared with his symphonic output.  A bit similar to Beethoven there.

"Awful"? What's wrong with the 12th symphony? I've never heard it. Too "propagandistic"?

I never realized that about each quartet being in a different key. That's very interesting.

Thanks for the link to that site! I'll be exploring this.

I listened to quartet no.1 this morning, an old recording by the Beethoven Quartet. This quartet never left much impression on me until today's listen, but I really enjoyed it. Short and sweet. The Beethoven Quartet also made an amazing recording, with the composer on piano, of the great Piano Quintet, one of his greatest chamber works, I think. Interestingly, it was written (or at least published) before all but one of the quartets. Anyway, that recording is worth a listen.

I also yesterday ordered a CD with the Borodin Trio performing two Shostakovich chamber works, the 2nd piano trio and the piano quintet, on Chandos. Very excited to get it! I've heard their performance of the quintet before and loved it.

Any opinions on Shostakovich's non-SQ chamber works? Either the two I mentioned or others? I still have yet to hear all of the symphonies, of course, but where Shostakovich seems to shine the brightest is with his chamber music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: staxomega on December 29, 2019, 07:48:49 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 04:10:12 PM
I'll have to show her some time, I don't know if she's heard it. But she does like Ms. Nikolayeva's Bach, and her favorite pianists are Maria Yudina and Alfred Cortot, so it would seem that she is the kind of person that values interpretive originality over pristine technique. Of course, it could always be the case that a pianist has neither.  ;D I'm a beginner-intermediate piano player myself but I'm in no place to critique anyone's technique.

What are some of the problems you hear in her Hyperion recording of op.87? Are there actual mistakes, wrong notes and the like, or is it more subtle than that, ie. poor phrasing, articulation etc? Just out of curiosity as she is still the front runner for me, though I am leaning toward one of the older recordings now.

To the best of my knowledge there are no mistakes, but I wasn't following along with the scores. It's a digital recording so cleaning it up would have been seamless. Poor/blurred phrasing, heavy use of pedal, slower tempi than AFAIK nearly anyone else, knowing how her approach changed in her late in life recordings compared to her early ones and lastly I've heard some bootlegs which couldn't have been edited where she is really struggling with the music. Not Op. 87 but other difficult pieces.

I think this is not necessarily a problem if the pieces still move you, but with all of these things it doesn't really do it for me.

Edit: I like many of Maria Yudina's recordings, I'm really contemplating getting the new Melodiya set of hers but some of the pianos she used sound out of tune :( And of course I am a big fan of Alfred Cortot! He played so many Chopin and Schumann pieces with real feeling, piano critics be damned.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jo498 on December 29, 2019, 07:50:26 AM
That's a somewhat misleading comparison. When I bought my first disc of DSCH quartets in the mid-1990s I got the Brodsky with (I think) 6, 10 and 14. The opus numbers were  either not printed on the cover or I didn't bother to check them and simply supposed that similarly to Beethoven there would be one earlyish, one middle and one late piece in that anthology. Because with Beethoven the quartets fall more neatly into "early, middle, late" than most other genres
But in fact with DSCH 6,10,14 are all "lateish" works (and it was not a very good start for me; I later got 3 and 5 on Naxos and 8-10 which made a better impression) as DSCH did not write any early quartets. He wrote about 3-4 "middle quartets" and 11-12 late ones.

And no, he usually isn't in Bartok's league although he comes closer to Bartok quality in the quartets than in orchestral or piano music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 29, 2019, 08:36:38 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 04:39:46 AM
I have been receptive to the music of Shostakovich lately. The first violin concerto blew me away when I heard it the other day. Additionally I have been dipping into my complete string quartets set from the Pacifica Quartet, an amazing cycle which also contains a few quartets by such other Soviet composers as Schnittke, Prokofiev, Myaskovsky, and Weinberg. I especially love the 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th quartets. I can't believe how many great ones he wrote.

The symphonies have been more elusive to me. I have listened to numerous times and enjoyed the 5th, I have seen the 7th live in concert but never listened to it again after that (it was pretty good, but one has to be in a mood for it), I really enjoy the 9th, and I've heard the 10th and found it very interesting, but I think I have a bad recording (Frank Shipway/Royal Philharmonic; it struck me as quite pedestrian the last time I listened). So what I think I need is a halfway decent complete set of the symphonies to work through. I'm down to three choices: Rostropovich on Warner, V. Petrenko on Naxos, and Barshai on Brilliant. Does anyone have any of these sets and care to comment on them? Another I am curious about is the newer Michael Sanderling set, but I know nothing of the conductor other than that his father Kurt was a great conductor.

Furthermore, I need to get my hands on the cello concerti. I'm thinking of getting the Naxos disc with Maria Kliegel and Antoni Wit, as I'm a big fan of conductor and soloist alike – either that, or Heinrich Schiff/Maxim Shostakovich which also looks excellent. Has anyone been listening to these works lately? Do you have a favorite recording?

I don't always love the music of Shostakovich, but it has been sounding just right lately.

Of the three symphony sets: Slava, Barshai & Petrenko, honestly I prefer Petrenko.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 29, 2019, 08:40:22 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 28, 2019, 04:39:46 AM
I have been receptive to the music of Shostakovich lately. The first violin concerto blew me away when I heard it the other day. Additionally I have been dipping into my complete string quartets set from the Pacifica Quartet, an amazing cycle which also contains a few quartets by such other Soviet composers as Schnittke, Prokofiev, Myaskovsky, and Weinberg. I especially love the 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th quartets. I can't believe how many great ones he wrote.

The symphonies have been more elusive to me. I have listened to numerous times and enjoyed the 5th, I have seen the 7th live in concert but never listened to it again after that (it was pretty good, but one has to be in a mood for it), I really enjoy the 9th, and I've heard the 10th and found it very interesting, but I think I have a bad recording (Frank Shipway/Royal Philharmonic; it struck me as quite pedestrian the last time I listened). So what I think I need is a halfway decent complete set of the symphonies to work through. I'm down to three choices: Rostropovich on Warner, V. Petrenko on Naxos, and Barshai on Brilliant. Does anyone have any of these sets and care to comment on them? Another I am curious about is the newer Michael Sanderling set, but I know nothing of the conductor other than that his father Kurt was a great conductor.

Furthermore, I need to get my hands on the cello concerti. I'm thinking of getting the Naxos disc with Maria Kliegel and Antoni Wit, as I'm a big fan of conductor and soloist alike – either that, or Heinrich Schiff/Maxim Shostakovich which also looks excellent. Has anyone been listening to these works lately? Do you have a favorite recording?

I don't always love the music of Shostakovich, but it has been sounding just right lately.

Another piece you should run, not walk to hear, is the piano trio.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 29, 2019, 09:29:51 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 29, 2019, 07:34:36 AM
"Awful"? What's wrong with the 12th symphony? I've never heard it. Too "propagandistic"?

I never realized that about each quartet being in a different key. That's very interesting.

Thanks for the link to that site! I'll be exploring this.

I listened to quartet no.1 this morning, an old recording by the Beethoven Quartet. This quartet never left much impression on me until today's listen, but I really enjoyed it. Short and sweet. The Beethoven Quartet also made an amazing recording, with the composer on piano, of the great Piano Quintet, one of his greatest chamber works, I think. Interestingly, it was written (or at least published) before all but one of the quartets. Anyway, that recording is worth a listen.

I also yesterday ordered a CD with the Borodin Trio performing two Shostakovich chamber works, the 2nd piano trio and the piano quintet, on Chandos. Very excited to get it! I've heard their performance of the quintet before and loved it.

Any opinions on Shostakovich's non-SQ chamber works? Either the two I mentioned or others? I still have yet to hear all of the symphonies, of course, but where Shostakovich seems to shine the brightest is with his chamber music.

Saying Symphony 12 is "awful" is such a given amongst music connoisseurs.  Why quaff on a rustic red when you could be drinking Lafitte '58 (or whatever!) all the time.  DSCH more than just about any other composer I know was a bellweather for the time/place the music was written.  For sure its easy to musically analyse this or that work and declare it "better" than another.  But that is to miss the point of DSCH - his music does not exist in some abstracted non-subjective vacuum.  Some is the private DSCH some is the more public face - but they are sides of the same coin and thereby of interest at least.   We admire Soviet Agitprop art for what it is - why not music too?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on December 29, 2019, 09:35:15 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 29, 2019, 08:36:38 AM
Of the three symphony sets: Slava, Barshai & Petrenko, honestly I prefer Petrenko.

I think Petrenko will be the one. Probably going to order it within the week.

I have heard the piano trio before and I endorse your wholehearted recommendation for it, but I don't have it on CD. This is going to change when I get the Borodin Trio CD in the mail with the piano trio and piano quintet  ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: staxomega on December 29, 2019, 12:51:18 PM
In Op. 87 I managed to listen to up the 4th Fugue from Boris Petrushansky, he is damn good. In Prelude No. 3 I was quite impressed by the very clear articulation between the powerful/dynamic playing of the left hand and concise, gentle playing of the right. And Prelude No. 4 had loads of the imminent pathos. There is a certain effortlessness to his playing that makes me want to keep listening.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on December 30, 2019, 02:53:13 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 29, 2019, 08:36:38 AM
Of the three symphony sets: Slava, Barshai & Petrenko, honestly I prefer Petrenko.

as noted I like Petrenko's nr 10. His nr 14 is, to my mind, not entirely satisfying, in that there is no real compulsion (in me) to listen to the entire piece from start to finish. There is no dramatic build-up. I do get to hear details that were inaudible in other recordings, but that's not the point.
There are a lot of good things. The soprano can muster a sort of cabaret-ish delivery at times, which is in the music. After all, nr. 14 (to borrow a Seinfeld phrase) is a show about the big nothing. It's of the same lineage as Pierrot Lunaire.
I think the problem is it's a studio recording.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on December 30, 2019, 03:09:25 AM
Just put "Malaguena" on repeat and you'll be fine...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 30, 2019, 07:07:52 AM
Quote from: Herman on December 30, 2019, 02:53:13 AM
as noted I like Petrenko's nr 10. His nr 14 is, to my mind, not entirely satisfying, in that there is no real compulsion (in me) to listen to the entire piece from start to finish. There is no dramatic build-up. I do get to hear details that were inaudible in other recordings, but that's not the point.
There are a lot of good things. The soprano can muster a sort of cabaret-ish delivery at times, which is in the music. After all, nr. 14 (to borrow a Seinfeld phrase) is a show about the big nothing. It's of the same lineage as Pierrot Lunaire.
I think the problem is it's a studio recording.

Interesting. Thanks, Herman ... tangentially, I've been meaning to listen to the Fourteenth with Kremerata Baltica.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on January 04, 2020, 06:43:41 PM
Has anyone ever heard the Poem of the Motherland, op.74?

Apparently there's just one recording from around 1950 or even slightly earlier. Which did whacked on an obscure CD at some point. I can't find an online source.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on January 05, 2020, 03:14:29 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 29, 2019, 09:29:51 AM
Saying Symphony 12 is "awful" is such a given amongst music connoisseurs.  Why quaff on a rustic red when you could be drinking Lafitte '58 (or whatever!) all the time.  DSCH more than just about any other composer I know was a bellweather for the time/place the music was written.  For sure its easy to musically analyse this or that work and declare it "better" than another.  But that is to miss the point of DSCH - his music does not exist in some abstracted non-subjective vacuum.  Some is the private DSCH some is the more public face - but they are sides of the same coin and thereby of interest at least.   We admire Soviet Agitprop art for what it is - why not music too?
I rather like the 12th Symphony. It's association with Eisenstin's film 'October' interest me as it was later used as accompanying music. I know that it's not one of his greatest symphonies but I still find it enjoyable for both musical, cinematic and historical reasons.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2020, 06:50:39 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 05, 2020, 03:14:29 AM
I rather like the 12th Symphony. It's association with Eisenstin's film 'October' interest me as it was later used as accompanying music. I know that it's not one of his greatest symphonies but I still find it enjoyable for both musical, cinematic and historical reasons.

I have always found the 12th symphony a difficult pill to swallow. It's got loads of bombast and propulsion, but I find the musical material weak and not one of his more inspired moments. I can certainly understand the criticism. A symphony that has really got under my skin the last time I was listening to Shostakovich pretty regularly was his 9th symphony, especially the Rozhdestvensky performance. It seems there's more emotional depth to this symphony than I initially realized, especially the Largo movement.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on January 05, 2020, 08:03:07 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2020, 06:50:39 AM
I have always found the 12th symphony a difficult pill to swallow. It's got loads of bombast and propulsion, but I find the musical material weak and not one of his more inspired moments. I can certainly understand the criticism. A symphony that has really got under my skin the last time I was listening to Shostakovich pretty regularly was his 9th symphony, especially the Rozhdestvensky performance. It seems there's more emotional depth to this symphony than I initially realized, especially the Largo movement.
I don't disagree with your analysis John it's just that 'The Year 1917' has an odd appeal to me.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 05, 2020, 08:10:51 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 29, 2019, 09:29:51 AM
Saying Symphony 12 is "awful" is such a given amongst music connoisseurs.

The least of his 15 symphonies, probably.  "Awful?" Only in the ears of those who feel it is, for them.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: staxomega on January 05, 2020, 09:44:37 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2020, 06:50:39 AM
I have always found the 12th symphony a difficult pill to swallow. It's got loads of bombast and propulsion, but I find the musical material weak and not one of his more inspired moments. I can certainly understand the criticism. A symphony that has really got under my skin the last time I was listening to Shostakovich pretty regularly was his 9th symphony, especially the Rozhdestvensky performance. It seems there's more emotional depth to this symphony than I initially realized, especially the Largo movement.

That is really interesting, it was Rozhdestvensky that convinced me about the 9th as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2020, 08:39:39 PM
Quote from: hvbias on January 05, 2020, 09:44:37 AM
That is really interesting, it was Rozhdestvensky that convinced me about the 9th as well.

Rozhdestvensky certainly convinced of the merits of the work. It is 'lighter' Shostakovich, but there's still some lingering darker moments and Rozhdestvensky has brought this to the fore more than any other performance I've heard.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on January 06, 2020, 02:21:35 AM
I love Shosty's 9th, but haven't heard the Rozhdestvensky recording, only Bernstein/NYPO, which is great, but I think he emphasizes more of the wit and Haydnesque side of the music than any deep pathos (which is definitely also there, especially in the inner movements). I'll try and find this Rozhdestvensky recording and give it a listen sometime.

I just ordered this:

[asin]B011A8X3B8[/asin]

... which will be my first and only Shostakovich symphony cycle. Very excited to spend time with these symphonies over the winter months...

... meanwhile... I have been listening to string quartets 1 through 4 a lot, all brilliant, especially 2 and 3.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 06, 2020, 03:23:56 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 06, 2020, 02:21:35 AM
I love Shosty's 9th, but haven't heard the Rozhdestvensky recording, only Bernstein/NYPO, which is great, but I think he emphasizes more of the wit and Haydnesque side of the music than any deep pathos (which is definitely also there, especially in the inner movements). I'll try and find this Rozhdestvensky recording and give it a listen sometime.

I just ordered this:

[asin]B011A8X3B8[/asin]

... which will be my first and only Shostakovich symphony cycle. Very excited to spend time with these symphonies over the winter months...

... meanwhile... I have been listening to string quartets 1 through 4 a lot, all brilliant, especially 2 and 3.

Probably throwing a whole cacophony of cats in amongst the pigeons but while you are enjoying the music can I suggest a couple of background books too......  I am NOT suggesting these are the last word/authoritative biographies or studies but I have enjoyed all these and felt they added to my understanding and appreciation of DSCH;

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b7/Testimony_%28book%29.jpg/220px-Testimony_%28book%29.jpg)

yes yes yes - whether it is "true" or not I found this opened up the world of DSCH to me.....

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51fkaWMRS7L._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

a kind-of "novel"  but so compelling and powerful..... and terrifying

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51W5GM20J8L._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

just a good read.... and lastly....

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61eTaJiQ9jL._SX323_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

a testament to the human spirit....     But of course as ever - just enjoy the music!

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on January 06, 2020, 07:38:00 AM
I listened to the endings of Shostakovich 11 - Nelsons and Petrenko can not replace good old Haitink/Concertgebouw for me.
They are speeding up the ending so massively, I don't like it. Nelsons does some tempo variations I do not like. Or I'm not used to. The slowness of mvmt 4 start omg.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2020, 08:17:01 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 06, 2020, 02:21:35 AM
I love Shosty's 9th, but haven't heard the Rozhdestvensky recording, only Bernstein/NYPO, which is great, but I think he emphasizes more of the wit and Haydnesque side of the music than any deep pathos (which is definitely also there, especially in the inner movements). I'll try and find this Rozhdestvensky recording and give it a listen sometime.

I just ordered this:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B011A8X3B8.01.L.jpg)

... which will be my first and only Shostakovich symphony cycle. Very excited to spend time with these symphonies over the winter months...

... meanwhile... I have been listening to string quartets 1 through 4 a lot, all brilliant, especially 2 and 3.

There is much that is very good to excellent in the Petrenko cycle, and I would not suggest that you need another.

That said, our Herman has expressed some reservations about Petrenko's Fourteenth. So, may I suggest, as one who early on came to love the Fourteenth, that you add as a supplement the ECM disc of Kremerata Baltica performing both the Shostakovich Fourteenth, and an exquisite string arrangement of the Adagio from the Mahler Tenth?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 06, 2020, 09:20:52 AM
Quote from: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on January 06, 2020, 07:38:00 AM
I listened to the endings of Shostakovich 11 - Nelsons and Petrenko can not replace good old Haitink/Concertgebouw for me.
They are speeding up the ending so massively, I don't like it. Nelsons does some tempo variations I do not like. Or I'm not used to. The slowness of mvmt 4 start omg.

I still find the ending of Kondrashin's No.11 suitably apocalyptic!  And the nagging question of whether to leave the bells ringing on or not.... I rather like it left... wind blowing through the rubble and other subjective nonsense that appeals to me.  Whether to use standard orchestral tubular bells or big resonant bell bells.  A small detail but one with a big visceral impact I find.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on January 06, 2020, 10:36:56 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 06, 2020, 08:17:01 AM
There is much that is very good to excellent in the Petrenko cycle, and I would not suggest that you need another.

That said, our Herman has expressed some reservations about Petrenko's Fourteenth. So, may I suggest, as one who early on came to love the Fourteenth, that you add as a supplement the ECM disc of Kremerata Baltica performing both the Shostakovich Fourteenth, and an exquisite string arrangement of the Adagio from the Mahler Tenth?

Reviewers considered the 14th one of Petrenko's best.

So maybe one person's reservations are not an immediate reason for another purchase before even listening for oneself.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2020, 12:20:16 PM
Quote from: Madiel on January 06, 2020, 10:36:56 AM
Reviewers considered the 14th one of Petrenko's best.

So maybe one person's reservations are not an immediate reason for another purchase before even listening for oneself.

Fair enough!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on January 06, 2020, 04:40:24 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 06, 2020, 08:17:01 AM
There is much that is very good to excellent in the Petrenko cycle, and I would not suggest that you need another.

That said, our Herman has expressed some reservations about Petrenko's Fourteenth. So, may I suggest, as one who early on came to love the Fourteenth, that you add as a supplement the ECM disc of Kremerata Baltica performing both the Shostakovich Fourteenth, and an exquisite string arrangement of the Adagio from the Mahler Tenth?

Noted, that sounds great! I will probably try and listen through the entire Petrenko set before supplementing with further recordings, but I will look into that, the Mahler sounds like a great complement.

I listened to the E minor Piano Trio, op.67 a little earlier. A damn fine, elegiac work. I never noticed this before, but it at times almost reminds me of Mahler's first symphony, with its juxtaposition of folksy quasi-Jewish themes with more funereal motifs and atmospheres. Probably one of Shostakovich's darker works, no?

And I got yet another new Shostakovich CD today, Maxim Vengerov playing the 2nd violin concerto (coupled with the 2nd VC of Prokofiev; I am very excited to hear both!), Rostropovich conducting.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on January 06, 2020, 09:43:24 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 06, 2020, 09:20:52 AM
I still find the ending of Kondrashin's No.11 suitably apocalyptic!  And the nagging question of whether to leave the bells ringing on or not.... I rather like it left... wind blowing through the rubble and other subjective nonsense that appeals to me.  Whether to use standard orchestral tubular bells or big resonant bell bells.  A small detail but one with a big visceral impact I find.
Kondrashin's recording is probably my favourite. I first came across it on a Soviet LP picked up at an exhibition about the USSR in Earl's Court, where I lived in my youth. I saw this work live at the Proms a couple of years ago (Jurowski I think) where he used big resonant bells at the end. It made a terrific impact. Like No.4 this is a great one to experience live.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 07, 2020, 02:49:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 06, 2020, 09:43:24 PM
Kondrashin's recording is probably my favourite. I first came across it on a Soviet LP picked up at an exhibition about the USSR in Earl's Court, where I lived in my youth. I saw this work live at the Proms a couple of years ago (Jurowski I think) where he used big resonant bells at the end. It made a terrific impact. Like No.4 this is a great one to experience live.

Apparently the National Youth Orchestra are performing No.11 in concert even as I write.  This is a heads up via MusicWeb:

"A number of us attended a tremendous and rather surprising concert on Saturday.    I have learned from John Quinn that this will be broadcast from the Barbican on BBC Radio 3 on Jan 13th.  The orchestra was the  National Youth Orchestra with the conductor Jaime Martín. It was a massive orchestra: 12 basses, what seemed like dozens of horns but the massed strings were delightful. It started with  Eisler Auf den Strassen zu singen. This song was written for factory workers to sing. This was sung by the members of the orchestra in Russian. You can imagine at their audition they would be asked to play the violin or whatever and then 'We would also like you sing – in Russian'!

The concert continued with the Britten's Sinfonia da Requiem and the Shostakovich 11th symphony. This symphony incorporates a number of revolutionary songs but I had not realized Shostakovich had incorporated these almost note for note. It opens with Listen Listen so orchestra sang that first and then started the symphony. They sang two others between movements and the one more as an encore. Altogether an enterprising concert but very poorly attended. This was the first of three performances and most of the audience seemed to be parents.

As always it was superbly performed and the broadcast will be a rare chance to hear songs in context."

I think I'll try and catch this concert/broadcast for sure - sounds like a fantastic programme
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on January 07, 2020, 04:54:36 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 06, 2020, 03:23:56 AM
Probably throwing a whole cacophony of cats in amongst the pigeons but while you are enjoying the music can I suggest a couple of background books too......  I am NOT suggesting these are the last word/authoritative biographies or studies but I have enjoyed all these and felt they added to my understanding and appreciation of DSCH;

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b7/Testimony_%28book%29.jpg/220px-Testimony_%28book%29.jpg)

yes yes yes - whether it is "true" or not I found this opened up the world of DSCH to me.....

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51fkaWMRS7L._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

a kind-of "novel"  but so compelling and powerful..... and terrifying

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51W5GM20J8L._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

just a good read.... and lastly....

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61eTaJiQ9jL._SX323_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

a testament to the human spirit....     But of course as ever - just enjoy the music!

An alternate opinion: Testimony is a fraud. The Barnes is thin and disappointing. The New Shostakovich contains some of the most idiotic music criticism I've read. Meow.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 07, 2020, 08:05:36 AM
Quote from: BasilValentine on January 07, 2020, 04:54:36 AM
An alternate opinion: Testimony is a fraud. The Barnes is thin and disappointing. The New Shostakovich contains some of the most idiotic music criticism I've read. Meow.

Bless you.  Of course all your statements might well be true.  But then neither do I say that I simply absorb and regurgitate all/anything written here as being unquestionably "true".  What I do feel is that reading ALL these books have widened my understanding and appreciation of DSCH and his age. But as I say Bless you for such a considered response.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 07, 2020, 08:24:16 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 06, 2020, 04:40:24 PM
And I got yet another new Shostakovich CD today, Maxim Vengerov playing the 2nd violin concerto (coupled with the 2nd VC of Prokofiev; I am very excited to hear both!), Rostropovich conducting.

Very nice!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: JBS on January 07, 2020, 08:25:09 AM
I found this biography to be detailed enough to be useful, and fairly well balanced.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41Wc7bxkFqL.jpg)

She gives a thorough review of the reasons why Testimony is indeed a fraud, but concludes there is probably a hard layer of  Shostakovich  inside.  Sort of, DSCH did not probably say explicity the things the book claims he said, but he may have said similar things less explicitly, and probably did think that way.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on January 07, 2020, 08:33:46 AM
Quote from: BasilValentine on January 07, 2020, 04:54:36 AM
An alternate opinion: Testimony is a fraud. The Barnes is thin and disappointing. The New Shostakovich contains some of the most idiotic music criticism I've read. Meow.

I've enjoyed all of these books. My brother bought me the Barnes book but I haven't read it yet. This, however, is my favourite book about Shostakovich. I saw her give an interesting talk about Shostakovich in Cambridge a few years ago.
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 07, 2020, 08:35:08 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 06, 2020, 04:40:24 PM
I listened to the E minor Piano Trio, op.67 a little earlier. A damn fine, elegiac work. I never noticed this before, but it at times almost reminds me of Mahler's first symphony, with its juxtaposition of folksy quasi-Jewish themes with more funereal motifs and atmospheres. Probably one of Shostakovich's darker works, no?

Good ear: Indeed the work is dedicated to his musicologist friend Ivan Sollertinsky, who died suddenly 11 Feb 1944. The piece was conceived while his friend was yet alive. Sollertinsky was responsible for introducing Shostakovich to the music of Mahler.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 07, 2020, 08:37:44 AM
Quote from: JBS on January 07, 2020, 08:25:09 AM
I found this biography to be detailed enough to be useful, and fairly well balanced.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41Wc7bxkFqL.jpg)

She gives a thorough review of the reasons why Testimony is indeed a fraud, but concludes there is probably a hard layer of  Shostakovich  inside.  Sort of, DSCH did not probably say explicity the things the book claims he said, but he may have said similar things less explicitly, and probably did think that way.

Quote from: vandermolen on January 07, 2020, 08:33:46 AM
I've enjoyed all of these books. My brother bought me the Barnes book but I haven't read it yet. This, however, is my favourite book about Shostakovich. I saw her give an interesting talk about Shostakovich in Cambridge a few years ago.


Both the Fay and Wilson are excellent.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 07, 2020, 09:10:29 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 07, 2020, 08:37:44 AM
Both the Fay and Wilson are excellent.

I like Fay too and her viewpoint of Testimony seems to me spot on.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on January 09, 2020, 01:47:53 PM
Ah, so many book suggestions. I think I will try and read at least two this year: Testimony–fraud or not, I really want to read it; it seems like an entertaining read–and at least one other book to counter Volkov's perspective with something a little more rooted in fact. Anyway, thanks everyone, I will have to parse through these suggestions and decide which one(s) I think I will enjoy.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 07, 2020, 08:35:08 AM
Good ear: Indeed the work is dedicated to his musicologist friend Ivan Sollertinsky, who died suddenly 11 Feb 1944. The piece was conceived while his friend was yet alive. Sollertinsky was responsible for introducing Shostakovich to the music of Mahler.

Wow! I had heard that it was dedicated to a friend who died young, and I suppose knowing that may have colored my perception of the music as elegiac. But that's all I knew. Fascinating. I wonder how Mahler's music was received by the Russian people at that time (first half of the 20th C.)–if I had to guess, nothing like it is perceived today.

Listening to the excellent Piano Quartet in G minor, op.57 right now. Borodin Trio, w/ Mimi Zweig and Jerry Horner, from the same CD as the trio, on Chandos. Excellent music. I think I like the quintet even better. I have another recording with the Beethoven Quartet and Shostakovich himself on piano, now that's a great performance.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2020, 06:05:58 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 09, 2020, 01:47:53 PM
Ah, so many book suggestions. I think I will try and read at least two this year: Testimony–fraud or not, I really want to read it; it seems like an entertaining read–and at least one other book to counter Volkov's perspective with something a little more rooted in fact. Anyway, thanks everyone, I will have to parse through these suggestions and decide which one(s) I think I will enjoy.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 07, 2020, 08:35:08 AM
Good ear: Indeed the work is dedicated to his musicologist friend Ivan Sollertinsky, who died suddenly 11 Feb 1944. The piece was conceived while his friend was yet alive. Sollertinsky was responsible for introducing Shostakovich to the music of Mahler.

Wow! I had heard that it was dedicated to a friend who died young, and I suppose knowing that may have colored my perception of the music as elegiac. But that's all I knew. Fascinating. I wonder how Mahler's music was received by the Russian people at that time (first half of the 20th C.)–if I had to guess, nothing like it is perceived today.

Listening to the excellent Piano Quartet in G minor, op.57 right now. Borodin Trio, w/ Mimi Zweig and Jerry Horner, from the same CD as the trio, on Chandos. Excellent music. I think I like the quintet even better. I have another recording with the Beethoven Quartet and Shostakovich himself on piano, now that's a great performance.



The Volkov is worth reading, just with an awareness that it is not quite what Volkov claims it is.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on January 10, 2020, 01:35:59 AM
Quote from: Madiel on January 06, 2020, 10:36:56 AM
Reviewers considered the 14th one of Petrenko's best.

So maybe one person's reservations are not an immediate reason for another purchase before even listening for oneself.

Certainly not if that one person is ME.

Nr. 14 is just a very hard piece to get right in the studio, it's sort of begging for an audience to bounce the drama back.

The other thing is, you can get most of these Petrenko singles for very little money on the secondary market, so the risk is not that great, and just maybe the recording pushes yr buttons.

I guess I prefer the messier and more urgent Kondrashin recording, but I believe this is very hard to get at the mo.

There was a time, something like fifteen years ago, I was a mere lad, barely out of the crib, everybody on GMG (incl cats and dogs) was ordering the Aulos Melodyia reissue from Korea, this was way before global warming  :'( and I have yet to regret this purchase.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on January 10, 2020, 01:39:33 AM
The Elizabeth Wilson book is indispensable. It's very good on the string quartets, too.

I could be called a Julian Barnes fan, but I thought the DSCH book was not very good.

I'm getting the feeling Barnes is more or less clearing his desk in a rather uninspired way with his latest books.

(Yeah, I'm that kind of fan!)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on January 10, 2020, 07:01:56 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on January 09, 2020, 01:47:53 PM
Ah, so many book suggestions. I think I will try and read at least two this year: Testimony–fraud or not, I really want to read it; it seems like an entertaining read–and at least one other book to counter Volkov's perspective with something a little more rooted in fact. Anyway, thanks everyone, I will have to parse through these suggestions and decide which one(s) I think I will enjoy.

Testimony is an entertaining read as long as you don't read it as history but rather Volkov's impressions as told through disingenuous assertions placed onto Shostakovich.  Shostakovich a Life (Fay) is a better book if you want to understand this complex man.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on January 10, 2020, 08:02:33 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 07, 2020, 08:05:36 AM
Bless you.  Of course all your statements might well be true.  But then neither do I say that I simply absorb and regurgitate all/anything written here as being unquestionably "true".  What I do feel is that reading ALL these books have widened my understanding and appreciation of DSCH and his age. But as I say Bless you for such a considered response.

My apologies for being short with you. Reading Testimony as if it was the actual testimony of Shostakovich is not a good way to widen ones understanding of Shostakovich because nothing in it that is uncorroborated by reliable other sources can be trusted. The most important documents on the validity of Testimony are Laurel Fay's "Shostakovich versus Volkov: Whose Testimony?" (1980) and her updated version of this essay, "Volkov's Testimony Reconsidered" (2002). Both are published in Malcolm Hamrick Brown's A Shostakovich Casebook. Both stand unrefuted as devastating indictments of Volkov's fraud.

First hand testimony about Shostakovich can be found in Shostakovich: A Life Remembered by Elizabeth Wilson, which quotes many who new the composer. Richard Taruskin eviscerates the critical methods applied in The New Shostakovich in his brilliant essay, "Public Lies and Unspeakable Truth: Interpreting Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony" (In Shostakovich Studies, ed. David Fanning Cambridge UP, pp. 17-52)

An interesting fictionalized Shostakovich can be found in pages 622-727 of William T. Vollmann's great novel, Europe Central. The section of the book is titled "Opus 110," referring to Shostakovich's 8th quartet.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 10, 2020, 08:38:46 AM
Testimony might have been worth reading if it had been marketed as a novel based on the author's personal experiences with a fictionalized DSCH. As it stands, it's worthless because there's no way of knowing what's real and what's fictional.

I see V. Askhenazy wrote a preface to MacDonald's crazy book. I wonder what he found worthwhile about it?

Has any1 read Wendy Lesser's Music for Silenced Voices? In theory it looks interesting, but on the other hand it looks like it might be "I'm no expert in music, but this is my personal response to these fascinating quartets", which is probably not so good, at least not at book length.

DSCH has certainly been a boon for writers looking to spin their theories.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on January 11, 2020, 05:13:57 AM
I'm enjoying getting into Laurel Fay's A Life - though she is unashamedly as dry and objective as can be, still I keep encountering interesting nuggets - I didn't know for example that both Dmitri's parents hailed from deepest Siberia - Irkutsk, practically Mongolia by looking at the map.  Nor that his mother was musically talented and had studied at the conservatory in St Petersburg.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: JBS on January 13, 2020, 04:58:10 PM
Amazon popped this up at me. Anyone heard any of it?
[asin]B07PB1S58D[/asin]
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71JwbN3uXgL.jpg)

ETA
Never mind. I just realized I have the Tenth in its original issue (combined with Beethoven 3), not impressed enough to get a whole cycle.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on January 13, 2020, 07:18:35 PM
Quote from: JBS on January 13, 2020, 04:58:10 PM
Amazon popped this up at me. Anyone heard any of it?
[asin]B07PB1S58D[/asin]
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71JwbN3uXgL.jpg)

ETA
Never mind. I just realized I have the Tenth in its original issue (combined with Beethoven 3), not impressed enough to get a whole cycle.

I want going to say something, but you beat me to it. Yeah, nothing special.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 14, 2020, 08:05:08 AM
Quote from: BasilValentine on January 07, 2020, 04:54:36 AM
An alternate opinion: Testimony is a fraud. The Barnes is thin and disappointing. The New Shostakovich contains some of the most idiotic music criticism I've read. Meow.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 07, 2020, 08:05:36 AM
Bless you.  Of course all your statements might well be true.  But then neither do I say that I simply absorb and regurgitate all/anything written here as being unquestionably "true".  What I do feel is that reading ALL these books have widened my understanding and appreciation of DSCH and his age. But as I say Bless you for such a considered response.

I still remember the pleasure with which I discovered and purchased The New Shostakovich at the Borders in Rochester. I was genuinely grateful for it at the time, as there were names and facts which I read therein for the first time.

It was also clear early on that what MacDonald offered as "musical analysis" was irredeemably shallow.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 01, 2020, 01:08:37 AM
Any view on this set?
I have No.11 '1905' which I thought was an excellent performance.


I'm interested in this recent Dutton double album (symphonies 5 and 15 plus Kodaly's 'Hary Janos') as well:
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 01, 2020, 01:51:34 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 01, 2020, 01:08:37 AM
Any view on this set?
I have No.11 '1905' which I thought was an excellent performance.


I'm interested in this recent Dutton double album (symphonies 5 and 15 plus Kodaly's 'Hary Janos') as well:
(//)

I like this Kitajenko set.  In any repertoire he is almost never "driven" - he seems to prefer a broader, weightier approach.  As with any composer this will chime better with some works than others.  The SACD sound is good and the Gurzenich Orchestra very fine.  I'm glad to have it in my collection but I wouldn't choose it as the one set above any other.

The Ormandy recordings I only know from their CBS/Sony original CD releases.  I have heard other releases in this Dutton series and the improvement in sound quality over the original/early CD's is marked.  Quite why they have chosen the recordings/repertoire they have is not explained and how they have remastered the quadrophonic sound is not touched upon in the liners. 

I must admit to not having heard these performances in some time but my memory is a rather run of the mill No.5 but a more impressive no.15
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2020, 05:14:09 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 01, 2020, 01:08:37 AM
Any view on this set?
I have No.11 '1905' which I thought was an excellent performance.


I'm interested in this recent Dutton double album (symphonies 5 and 15 plus Kodaly's 'Hary Janos') as well:


I like the Kitajenko set: It's the set I have on my phone (No, I don't play it from the phone's speaker)  8)


Recommend it!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 01, 2020, 10:08:14 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 01, 2020, 01:51:34 PM
I like this Kitajenko set.  In any repertoire he is almost never "driven" - he seems to prefer a broader, weightier approach.  As with any composer this will chime better with some works than others.  The SACD sound is good and the Gurzenich Orchestra very fine.  I'm glad to have it in my collection but I wouldn't choose it as the one set above any other.

The Ormandy recordings I only know from their CBS/Sony original CD releases.  I have heard other releases in this Dutton series and the improvement in sound quality over the original/early CD's is marked.  Quite why they have chosen the recordings/repertoire they have is not explained and how they have remastered the quadrophonic sound is not touched upon in the liners. 

I must admit to not having heard these performances in some time but my memory is a rather run of the mill No.5 but a more impressive no.15
Many thanks RS. For now I've ordered the Dutton and will report back in due course. As I've only recently obtained the Petrenko set I don't think that I can justify getting the Kitajenko at the moment but maybe in the future.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 01, 2020, 10:09:15 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 01, 2020, 05:14:09 PM
I like the Kitajenko set: It's the set I have on my phone (No, I don't play it from the phone's speaker)  8)


Recommend it!

Many thanks Karl.
I certainly enjoyed his recording of Symphony 11.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 04, 2020, 12:28:42 PM
A very strong recommendation for this double CD set. I've written about it on the WAYLT thread:
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on March 05, 2020, 03:02:24 AM
What's Tom Selleck doing on a DSCH record sleeve? And who's his girlfriend?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on March 05, 2020, 03:13:38 AM
I was sorely tempted to submit it to the bad artwork thread.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 05, 2020, 07:11:13 AM
Quote from: Herman on March 05, 2020, 03:02:24 AM
What's Tom Selleck doing on a DSCH record sleeve? And who's his girlfriend?
:-)
Oh, I quite like the garish Socialist Realist covers.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 05, 2020, 11:04:10 PM
Quote from: Herman on March 05, 2020, 03:02:24 AM
What's Tom Selleck doing on a DSCH record sleeve? And who's his girlfriend?

ha ha!!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 06, 2020, 06:33:01 AM
Who needs a new No. 11 "1905"?  You do.  This sounds quite nice from the clips.
(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH5278.jpg)
https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%205278 (https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%205278)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on March 06, 2020, 10:47:40 AM
Oof! Look at those timings! At 66:43, by far the longest Shostakovich 11 I've come across! I suspect that means the violent music at the climax of the second movement will be played in slow motion again. That music absolutely must be given with gusto. It can be as loud as it wants, but the severity of it is really hammered home when it's done at a fast pace. It's supposed to be a real-time, graphic depiction of the violent suppression of protestors.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 06, 2020, 11:03:01 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 06, 2020, 10:47:40 AM
Oof! Look at those timings! At 66:43, by far the longest Shostakovich 11 I've come across! I suspect that means the violent music at the climax of the second movement will be played in slow motion again. That music absolutely must be given with gusto. It can be as loud as it wants, but the severity of it is really hammered home when it's done at a fast pace. It's supposed to be a real-time, graphic depiction of the violent suppression of protestors.

The excerpts on the Chandos website sound well played - but the 1st movement alone is a full 5:10 LONGER than Kondrashin.  I agree with your characterisation above.  The BBC PO are an excellent orchestra without doubt but this is work that seems to reveal most when played with the fury and rage of the old Soviet ensembles and conductors.......

Of course - Rostropovich's famous/infamous LSO "Live" recording IS slower in every movement:

                          I                  II             III            IV
Rostropovich      20:09          21:26       13:27       17:20
Storgards          17:40          21:03       12:16       15:44

The Rostropovich would NOT be my No.1 - I'd probably stick with Kondrashin - but to be fair he does generate an extraordinary sense of tension and chill.........
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 07, 2020, 01:09:46 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 06, 2020, 06:33:01 AM
Who needs a new No. 11 "1905"?  You do.  This sounds quite nice from the clips.
(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH5278.jpg)
https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%205278 (https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%205278)
Looks like a very interesting release - more temptation  ::)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on March 08, 2020, 12:10:45 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 06, 2020, 11:03:01 AM
The excerpts on the Chandos website sound well played - but the 1st movement alone is a full 5:10 LONGER than Kondrashin.  I agree with your characterisation above. 

Say rather that Kondrashin is quicker than anyone else.  I was quite shocked when I listened to his recording for the first time quite recently, it felt rushed and dismissive.  66 mins does not seem an excessive duration to me.  But I don't need another 11th.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Augustus on March 08, 2020, 05:58:45 AM
The fastest 11th on disc is probably the 1965 recording by Konstantin Ivanov with the USSR State SO.  The movement timings are: I - 11'11"; II - 14'43"; III - 9'09"; IV - 12'26", all over in under 48 minutes, more than six minutes faster than the Kondrashin.  A very different reading to most others, but one which I find quite compelling.

It is now, I think, only commercially available in the excellently-remastered Melodiya 110th Anniversary box of the symphonies under various conductors, Barshai (14), Ivanov (11), Kondrashin (2,3,4,12,13), Mravinsky (6,8), Rozhdestvensky (1,9), Svetlanov (5,7), Temirkanov (10) and M. Shostakovich (15).  The Maxim Shostakovich 15th has been quite a rarity on CD over the years and it is good to have it in this set in fine sound at last.

If anyone is interested, the Ivanov 11th may still be on YouTube in a bad transfer, which is where I first encountered it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 08, 2020, 06:19:37 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 08, 2020, 12:10:45 AM
Say rather that Kondrashin is quicker than anyone else.  I was quite shocked when I listened to his recording for the first time quite recently, it felt rushed and dismissive.  66 mins does not seem an excessive duration to me.  But I don't need another 11th.

Fair enough but since - for me - Kondrashin is the reference than it is more valid to say how other performances differ from Kondrashin not the other way around.......!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: staxomega on March 08, 2020, 04:48:17 PM
Quote from: Augustus on March 08, 2020, 05:58:45 AM
The fastest 11th on disc is probably the 1965 recording by Konstantin Ivanov with the USSR State SO.  The movement timings are: I - 11'11"; II - 14'43"; III - 9'09"; IV - 12'26", all over in under 48 minutes, more than six minutes faster than the Kondrashin.  A very different reading to most others, but one which I find quite compelling.

It is now, I think, only commercially available in the excellently-remastered Melodiya 110th Anniversary box of the symphonies under various conductors, Barshai (14), Ivanov (11), Kondrashin (2,3,4,12,13), Mravinsky (6,8), Rozhdestvensky (1,9), Svetlanov (5,7), Temirkanov (10) and M. Shostakovich (15).  The Maxim Shostakovich 15th has been quite a rarity on CD over the years and it is good to have it in this set in fine sound at last.

If anyone is interested, the Ivanov 11th may still be on YouTube in a bad transfer, which is where I first encountered it.

I just can't imagine the first movement being played that briskly, seems like it would be robbed of all the atmosphere before building up to the climax, but I'll give it a listen. All this discussion of the 11th had me revisit Rozhdestvensky's masterful recording yesterday.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 08, 2020, 07:25:24 PM
Quote from: hvbias on March 08, 2020, 04:48:17 PM
I just can't imagine the first movement being played that briskly, seems like it would be robbed of all the atmosphere before building up to the climax, but I'll give it a listen. All this discussion of the 11th had me revisit Rozhdestvensky's masterful recording yesterday.


And I've listened again to the composer's son's recording.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 09, 2020, 06:26:14 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 08, 2020, 07:25:24 PM
And I've listened again to the composer's son's recording.

How is that one?  Was the orchestra Prague?  You know what just hit me, there are very few composers where there is something to be gleamed about their work by revisiting other interpretations of it rather than what we consider the strongest interpretation. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 09, 2020, 07:45:49 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 09, 2020, 06:26:14 AM
How is that one?  Was the orchestra Prague?  You know what just hit me, there are very few composers where there is something to be gleamed about their work by revisiting other interpretations of it rather than what we consider the strongest interpretation. 

The Prague Symphony, yes.  I like it a lot.  The elegiac Cor anglais near the end of the fourth movement is so heart-searingly tender, it feels that the entire symphony was shaped to foc us there;  of course there is then a whirlwind to close.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 09, 2020, 06:01:12 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 09, 2020, 07:45:49 AM
The Prague Symphony, yes.  I like it a lot.  The elegiac Cor anglais near the end of the fourth movement is so heart-searingly tender, it feels that the entire symphony was shaped to foc us there;  of course there is then a whirlwind to close.

Oh that is a pivotal moment requiring great depth.  I must seek this one out!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 27, 2020, 02:19:37 PM
Terrific performance - those bells at the end!
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on March 27, 2020, 04:56:40 PM
Getting back into Shostakovich a bit lately. I've been enjoying some of the symphonies quite a bit: No.1, No.4, No.7 & No.9 to be specific. Still have yet to hear the later symphonies, but I'm working my way through the Petrenko/RLPO cycle. It's excellent, if anyone was wondering. All great performances.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 27, 2020, 05:20:14 PM
I just listened to the new Chandos recording of Shostakovich's Symphony No. 11 performed by the BBC Philharmonic conducted by John Storgårds.  This is overall a very fine release.  The Palace Square Adagio in this recording is appropriately quasi-militaristic but not especially atmospheric.  This made me question exactly why should it be atmospheric in the first place?  I don't have a great answer other than that's the way I was introduced to it but that might not make so much sense if you base the performance purely on the material.  I give the lack of atmosphere a pass as being more related to this is not about mood but a sense of dread making this performance feel more about the aftermath of a failed revolution rather than something more general.  The Ninth of January Allegro felt appropriate and well performed.  No criticism here.  The tempo and intensity worked.  In Memoriam – Adagio felt rushed.  I would have preferred a slightly slower tempo on the second half as the intensity built up.  The Tocsin Alarm was wonderful and precise.  My criticism here is in the slower section with the very sublime Cor Anglais solo wasn't memorable.  I think Houston/Stokowski really kills it here.  That performance is so sublime and yearning especially if that moment lingers a bit more as it did with LSO too.  The final intense ending is fine but I felt the bells started an octave too high.  Or perhaps I prefer the LSO/Rostropovich and HSO/Stokowski lower octave.  I've heard this work multiple times in concert performances and with SFO/MTT playing giant funeral bells at the end and OMG the impact of those lower bells is powerful!  Here, Chandos/Storgårds players the first tone up an octave which would be fine if I hadn't heard the dreaded bells from hell.  I still think this new Storgårds release is very good, just that the competition is extremely stiff.  I enjoyed it, but it won't replace my favorite interpretations.  A work like this, there are moments you can't wait till they arrive and at best, those moments of powerful and sublime rather than just good.  With Shostakovich, I no longer need just good.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 27, 2020, 11:55:11 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 27, 2020, 05:20:14 PM
I just listed to the new Chandos recording of Shostakovich's Symphony No. 11 performed by the BBC Philharmonic conducted by John Storgårds.  This is overall a very fine release.  The Palace Square Adagio in this recording is appropriately quasi-militaristic but not especially atmospheric.  This made me question exactly why should it be atmospheric in the first place?  I don't have a great answer other than that's the way I was introduced to it but that might not make so much sense if you base the performance purely on the material.  I give the lack of atmosphere a pass as being more related to this is not about mood but a sense of dread making this performance feel more about the aftermath of a failed revolution rather than something more general.  The Ninth of January Allegro felt appropriate and well performed.  No criticism here.  The tempo and intensity worked.  In Memoriam – Adagio felt rushed.  I would have preferred a slightly slower tempo on the second half as the intensity built up.  The Tocsin Alarm was wonderful and precise.  My criticism here is in the slower section with the very sublime Cor Anglais solo wasn't memorable.  I think Houston/Stokowski really kills it here.  That performance is so sublime and yearning especially if that moment lingers a bit more as it did with LSO too.  The final intense ending is fine but I felt the bells started an octave too high.  Or perhaps I prefer the LSO/Rostropovich and HSO/Stokowski lower octave.  I've heard this work multiple times in concert performances and with SFO/MTT playing giant funeral bells at the end and OMG the impact of those lower bells is powerful!  Here, Chandos/Storgårds players the first tone up an octave which would be fine if I hadn't heard the dreaded bells from hell.  I still think this new Storgårds release is very good, just that the competition is extremely stiff.  I enjoyed it, but it won't replace my favorite interpretations.  A work like this, there are moments you can't wait till they arrive and at best, those moments of powerful and sublime rather than just good.  With Shostakovich, I no longer need just good.
Excellent review Karim. I agree about a number of issues. The opening to me seemed very slow. I was listening on a small system in the study, so I need to hear it again on my main Hi-Fi system. And, you're quite right that the Cor Anglais section at the end was not as atmospheric as it might have been. Like you, however, overall I enjoyed it firstly. I'm not musically trained enough to pick up your point about the bells at the end but the 'cathedral-type' bell moved me greatly. Oddly enough the Stokowski/Houston version has never been one of my favourites but I must listen to it again. I also have a recording with him conducting on Russian Disc. My favourite versions are by Kondrashin, Pritchard (I was at the concert), Berglund and Lazar Berman. There was also a great live Bournemouth SO/Karabits recording given away BBC Music Magazine.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mahlerian on March 28, 2020, 05:04:11 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 27, 2020, 04:56:40 PM
Getting back into Shostakovich a bit lately. I've been enjoying some of the symphonies quite a bit: No.1, No.4, No.7 & No.9 to be specific. Still have yet to hear the later symphonies, but I'm working my way through the Petrenko/RLPO cycle. It's excellent, if anyone was wondering. All great performances.

What were your thoughts on the Fourth, this time around?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on March 28, 2020, 05:40:56 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on March 28, 2020, 05:04:11 AM
What were your thoughts on the Fourth, this time around?

Overall I liked it. Perhaps I wasn't paying close enough attention, but I found it to be a little episodic. It's clear that his intentions were to write something all-encompassing, but it almost sounded like too much was going on at times (particularly about midway through the first movement and again in the finale). I suspect it's just a matter of me needing to spend more time with the music. I wish scores were available freely for Shostakovich's music, I would love to follow along with one. I think it's clear that he was studying Mahler leading to the composition of this work. I especially hear echoes of Mahler's 7th.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 28, 2020, 06:55:35 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 28, 2020, 05:40:56 AM
Overall I liked it. Perhaps I wasn't paying close enough attention, but I found it to be a little episodic. It's clear that his intentions were to write something all-encompassing, but it almost sounded like too much was going on at times (particularly about midway through the first movement and again in the finale). I suspect it's just a matter of me needing to spend more time with the music. I wish scores were available freely for Shostakovich's music, I would love to follow along with one. I think it's clear that he was studying Mahler leading to the composition of this work. I especially hear echoes of Mahler's 7th.

FWIW, the first time I heard it, it was just to grand a vista for my range of sight.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on March 28, 2020, 06:59:34 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 28, 2020, 06:55:35 AM
FWIW, the first time I heard it, it was just to grand a vista for my range of sight.

Well said. That appears to be the case for me, too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mahlerian on March 28, 2020, 07:02:19 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 28, 2020, 05:40:56 AM
Overall I liked it. Perhaps I wasn't paying close enough attention, but I found it to be a little episodic. It's clear that his intentions were to write something all-encompassing, but it almost sounded like too much was going on at times (particularly about midway through the first movement and again in the finale). I suspect it's just a matter of me needing to spend more time with the music. I wish scores were available freely for Shostakovich's music, I would love to follow along with one. I think it's clear that he was studying Mahler leading to the composition of this work. I especially hear echoes of Mahler's 7th.

One of the things the Fourth Symphony has in common with Mahler, and specifically the later Mahler, is the way that a relatively conventional structure is hidden beneath several layers of misdirection (a "false" recapitulation in the first movement, the stream-of-consciousness treatment of variation in the finale), and also in the fact that the music is in a constant state of development.

Several things which seem like complete non-sequiturs are actually variants on major themes, like the string fugato in the development of the first movement, which is just the first theme, and there are many times, as in the recapitulation, where he seems to do one thing, but does another. After presenting the introduction more or less verbatim (just accreted with extra layers), Shostakovich brings back the instrumentation of the first theme...but the melody of the second. Then we end with the first theme in the instrumentation of the second!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 28, 2020, 08:58:03 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on March 28, 2020, 07:02:19 AM
One of the things the Fourth Symphony has in common with Mahler, and specifically the later Mahler, is the way that a relatively conventional structure is hidden beneath several layers of misdirection (a "false" recapitulation in the first movement, the stream-of-consciousness treatment of variation in the finale), and also in the fact that the music is in a constant state of development.

Several things which seem like complete non-sequiturs are actually variants on major themes, like the string fugato in the development of the first movement, which is just the first theme, and there are many times, as in the recapitulation, where he seems to do one thing, but does another. After presenting the introduction more or less verbatim (just accreted with extra layers), Shostakovich brings back the instrumentation of the first theme...but the melody of the second. Then we end with the first theme in the instrumentation of the second!

Also the Shosti's Fourth last movement starts the same way Mahler's 1st's last movement starts with quiet and slow timpani and the inclusion of a funeral processional at the start of the last movement is a very common Mahler trait.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 28, 2020, 09:25:12 AM
And, of course, that funeral march is only one reason why withdrawing it from performance was the right idea.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on March 28, 2020, 03:43:52 PM
Thoughts on Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District? I'm thinking about getting my hands on it. I don't know much about opera but I'm somewhat drawn to this one. I want to hear for myself what Stalin got so upset about.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 28, 2020, 04:03:24 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 28, 2020, 03:43:52 PM
Thoughts on Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District? I'm thinking about getting my hands on it. I don't know much about opera but I'm somewhat drawn to this one. I want to hear for myself what Stalin got so upset about.  :laugh:

Terrific!  You remind me I should watch it again.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on March 29, 2020, 02:43:56 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 28, 2020, 03:43:52 PM
I want to hear for myself what Stalin got so upset about.  :laugh:

I think he was just generally a bad-tempered sort of bloke.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 29, 2020, 06:55:14 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 28, 2020, 03:43:52 PM
Thoughts on Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District? I'm thinking about getting my hands on it. I don't know much about opera but I'm somewhat drawn to this one. I want to hear for myself what Stalin got so upset about.  :laugh:

One of my favorite operas.  I saw it live by the SF Opera which was also great but to me, the best performance was LSO/Rostropovich which I think was the premiere recording just a few years after Shostakovich's death.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 30, 2020, 03:03:26 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 29, 2020, 06:55:14 AM
One of my favorite operas.  I saw it live by the SF Opera which was also great but to me, the best performance was LSO/Rostropovich which I think was the premiere recording just a few years after Shostakovich's death.

The Rostropovitch set is a must-hear.  The LPO is on fire and Vishnevskaya has to be heard.  By no means the only version and she was relatively old for the part but the direct personal link to DSCH makes this a historical document.  On DVD I really enjoyed this version;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41ZG0u+yNBL._AC_UY218_ML3_.jpg)

Westbroek in the title part is very compelling and having Jansons and the Concertgebouw in the pit is pretty useful too(!)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on March 30, 2020, 03:36:09 AM
Thanks, everyone. It's settled then, I will have to check out the Rostropovich/LPO/Vishnevskaya recording of this famous opera.

I'm working my way through the Petrenko/RLPO symphonies cycle, currently up to the 10th, a symphony that I do not, for whatever reason, really like. Beyond this point is all uncharted territory for me. I'm excited to see what the late symphonies have to offer.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 30, 2020, 04:22:17 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 30, 2020, 03:36:09 AM
Thanks, everyone. It's settled then, I will have to check out the Rostropovich/LPO/Vishnevskaya recording of this famous opera.

I'm working my way through the Petrenko/RLPO symphonies cycle, currently up to the 10th, a symphony that I do not, for whatever reason, really like. Beyond this point is all uncharted territory for me. I'm excited to see what the late symphonies have to offer.

I first heard the Tenth performed live at McGaw Chapel at the College of Wooster, by the Cleveland Orchestra led by Simon Rattle, and I was immediately, lastingly smitten.  OTOH, our Sarge, generally a keen fan has never quite cottoned to the Tenth, either.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on March 30, 2020, 09:16:21 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 30, 2020, 04:22:17 AM
I first heard the Tenth performed live at McGaw Chapel at the College of Wooster, by the Cleveland Orchestra led by Simon Rattle, and I was immediately, lastingly smitten.  OTOH, our Sarge, generally a keen fan has never quite cottoned to the Tenth, either.

Interesting. I expect it might "click" with me eventually? I don't know, we'll see.

Well I ordered Lady Macbeth, the Rostropovich/LPO recording w/ Vishnevskaya. Very much looking forward to receiving it and spending time w/ the opera.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 31, 2020, 03:06:57 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 30, 2020, 09:16:21 AM
Interesting. I expect it might "click" with me eventually? I don't know, we'll see.

Well I ordered Lady Macbeth, the Rostropovich/LPO recording w/ Vishnevskaya. Very much looking forward to receiving it and spending time w/ the opera.

Hopefully you'll let us know what you think of "Lady Macbeth" once encountered!  I had a opera conductor friend who considered the re-working as "Katerina Ismailova" the finer work  I don't know either well enough to comment - but it interesting to hear both.  I love the wildness of the original....

On a tangent... here's a link to the Prom in 2007 when Dudamel first came (I think) with the Venezuelan YO and they played Shostakovich 10.  The quality of the playing and the sheer engagement with the music astounded me then and it still does now.  Not saying its the "best" No.10 but as a piece of communicative music making its pretty remarkable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKXQzs6Y5BY

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 31, 2020, 06:41:39 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 31, 2020, 03:06:57 AM
Hopefully you'll let us know what you think of "Lady Macbeth" once encountered!  I had a opera conductor friend who considered the re-working as "Katerina Ismailova" the finer work  I don't know either well enough to comment - but it interesting to hear both.  I love the wildness of the original....

On a tangent... here's a link to the Prom in 2007 when Dudamel first came (I think) with the Venezuelan YO and they played Shostakovich 10.  The quality of the playing and the sheer engagement with the music astounded me then and it still does now.  Not saying its the "best" No.10 but as a piece of communicative music making its pretty remarkable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKXQzs6Y5BY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKXQzs6Y5BY)



Yes to the wildness of the original Ledi Makbet!  And while, similarly, I have not done a comparison, Shostakovich labored hard, at a time when it was physically difficult for him, on the score of Katerina Izmailova.  So he was musically invested in it.  I have the latter on DVD, too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on March 31, 2020, 06:44:50 AM
What did he change exactly? I thought Katerina Izmailova was just the film adaptation of Lady Macbeth.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 31, 2020, 07:43:39 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 31, 2020, 06:44:50 AM
What did he change exactly? I thought Katerina Izmailova was just the film adaptation of Lady Macbeth.

It was a substantial reworking. Here's a link to a talk-classical discussion about the changes;

https://www.talkclassical.com/14800-questions-about-lady-macbeth.html
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 31, 2020, 07:57:28 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 31, 2020, 07:43:39 AM
It was a substantial reworking. Here's a link to a talk-classical discussion about the changes;

https://www.talkclassical.com/14800-questions-about-lady-macbeth.html


Interesting, thanks.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on March 31, 2020, 08:19:13 AM
Yes, thanks, Roasted Swan. I'll check it out.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 31, 2020, 04:10:46 PM
Cool! WCRB is rebroadcasting the BSO concert with the Ledi Makbet Passacaglia, the Beethoven Vn Cto, and the Shostakovich Tenth

https://www.classicalwcrb.org/#stream/0
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on April 02, 2020, 04:38:08 PM
I just got the Riccardo Chailly/RCO "Shostakovich: The Jazz Album" CD. Really good stuff! Light fare for Shostakovich standards, but both Jazz Suites are great, as is the first piano concerto.

I've been really enjoying the Shostakovich symphonies, listening to all those I know, mostly to the Petrenko/RLPO cycle. I'm going to try and listen to the Mravinsky/Leningrad recording I have of the 5th. It's part of the Bach Guild Big Shostakovich Box—is anyone familiar with this release? I'm curious when this was recorded. It sounds pretty old.

I ordered Lady Macbeth the other day, the Rostropovich/LPO, and I'm really excited to hear it! My love for Shostakovich's music always comes and goes in phases, so hopefully I'll still be in the mood for DSCH by the time it gets here  ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on April 02, 2020, 11:49:15 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 02, 2020, 04:38:08 PM
I just got the Riccardo Chailly/RCO "Shostakovich: The Jazz Album" CD. Really good stuff! Light fare for Shostakovich standards, but both Jazz Suites are great, as is the first piano concerto.

That particular album seems to be pretty well universally praised.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 03, 2020, 05:07:49 AM
Quote from: Madiel on April 02, 2020, 11:49:15 PM
That particular album seems to be pretty well universally praised.

For sure its a really well played/well recorded disc - but of course neither the "Jazz" suites or the PC No.1 have anything at all to do with jazz - but it makes for a nice bit of promotion/marketing to hang the programme on.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on April 03, 2020, 05:37:33 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 03, 2020, 05:07:49 AM
For sure its a really well played/well recorded disc - but of course neither the "Jazz" suites or the PC No.1 have anything at all to do with jazz - but it makes for a nice bit of promotion/marketing to hang the programme on.

Agreed, but it's really nice music nonetheless. I want to hear more of Chailly's Shostakovich series, ie. the Film Album, Dance Album, etc.—he hasn't recorded any of the symphonies, has he? Shame as I think he'd make a fine Shostakovich conductor, especially considering how well he takes to Mahler.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 04, 2020, 12:54:39 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 03, 2020, 05:37:33 AM
Agreed, but it's really nice music nonetheless. I want to hear more of Chailly's Shostakovich series, ie. the Film Album, Dance Album, etc.—he hasn't recorded any of the symphonies, has he? Shame as I think he'd make a fine Shostakovich conductor, especially considering how well he takes to Mahler.

You are right - those 3 "themed" Chailly discs are very fine.  For me, one of Shostakovich's lighter gems is Moskva Cheremushki Op 105 which is as near as he got to writing an operetta/musical which has some great fun music in it.  Chailly includes 4 excerpts on the "Dance" disc - for a fuller version of the score worth finding either the complete recording or the excerpts in English which were on an early BBC Music Magazine disc.  The latter seems to catch the madcap spirit very well I think.....

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91H1+cWItrL._AC_UY218_ML3_.jpg)   (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41wNI2n4MUL._AC_UY218_ML3_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on April 06, 2020, 02:28:38 AM
Good review of the new Storgards recording of Symphony 11 (Chandos) in the Sunday Times:

'Storgards' paces the drama with inexorable tread, inspiring the players to shattering climaxes in the massacre 'scene' - the second movement - and the final 'Tocsin', in which real church bells ring out at the symphony's 'optimistic' denouement. The atmosphere of foreboding before the massacre, and numbed shock after the event, are evocatively caught.'
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 06, 2020, 05:49:58 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 06, 2020, 02:28:38 AM
Good review of the new Storgards recording of Symphony 11 (Chandos) in the Sunday Times:

'Storgards' paces the drama with inexorable tread, inspiring the players to shattering climaxes in the massacre 'scene' - the second movement - and the final 'Tocsin', in which real church bells ring out at the symphony's 'optimistic' denouement. The atmosphere of foreboding before the massacre, and numbed shock after the event, are evocatively caught.'

"Optimistic" ...... REALLY??!!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on April 06, 2020, 06:26:01 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 06, 2020, 05:49:58 AM
"Optimistic" ...... REALLY??!!

Yes, that struck me as odd too. However, as the ending seems to represent the Tsarist tyranny of Nicholas II being swept away by the forces which he himself had unleashed in 1905, I guess that it could be seen as optimistic in that sense.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 06, 2020, 02:09:54 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 06, 2020, 06:26:01 AM
Yes, that struck me as odd too. However, as the ending seems to represent the Tsarist tyranny of Nicholas II being swept away by the forces which he himself had unleashed in 1905, I guess that it could be seen as optimistic in that sense.

If I hear anything there (given its about 1905 not 1917) surely its a "vengeance is mine I will repay" (see you in 12 years kind of thing).....! 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on April 06, 2020, 10:26:16 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 06, 2020, 05:49:58 AM
"Optimistic" ...... REALLY??!!

It doesn't say optimistic, it says 'optimistic'. The "REALLY??!!" is implied.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on April 06, 2020, 11:02:49 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 06, 2020, 02:09:54 PM
If I hear anything there (given its about 1905 not 1917) surely its a "vengeance is mine I will repay" (see you in 12 years kind of thing).....!

As in Rachmaninov's First Symphony. Yes, I see that but the end of the Shostakovich seems to me, at one level, to anticipate the end of Tsarist tyranny (only to be replaced, ultimately, by Stalinist tyranny of course).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on July 23, 2020, 05:16:56 PM
What would you think if I said I really like his Symphony No. 3?  Are we misjudging 2 and 3?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 23, 2020, 05:18:16 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 23, 2020, 05:16:56 PM
What would you think if I said I really like his Symphony No. 3?  Are we misjudging 2 and 3?

I do like both those.  So I think you have good reason.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on July 23, 2020, 05:23:12 PM
I happen to like all the symphonies, maybe the 14th being an only exception. And I reaffirmed my love for the 12th when I heard it live twice.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: T. D. on July 23, 2020, 05:35:38 PM
Maybe OT and of limited interest, but this has an anecdote about DSCH playing an offhand chess game against a World Champion, and some good period photos:

https://www.chess.com/blog/RoaringPawn/shostakovich-an-unexpected-sparring-partner-of-guess-who
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 23, 2020, 07:35:08 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on July 23, 2020, 05:23:12 PM
I happen to like all the symphonies, maybe the 14th being an only exception. And I reaffirmed my love for the 12th when I heard it live twice.

I'm also not really a fan of the 14th. I can say the same for the 12th, but it's better than the 2nd and 3rd symphonies. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on July 23, 2020, 11:07:36 PM
I am a fan of 14 (and 15).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 23, 2020, 11:26:01 PM
One that I really like is No.12 'The Year 1917' which is supposed to be the worst one. The only one that I don't know at all is No.14. 13, which was lost on me at one time, is now one of my favourites.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 23, 2020, 11:28:58 PM
Quote from: T. D. on July 23, 2020, 05:35:38 PM
Maybe OT and of limited interest, but this has an anecdote about DSCH playing an offhand chess game against a World Champion, and some good period photos:

https://www.chess.com/blog/RoaringPawn/shostakovich-an-unexpected-sparring-partner-of-guess-who

Interesting! He also played a children's card game with Rostropovich, Benjamin Britten and Peter Pears.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 23, 2020, 11:56:11 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 23, 2020, 11:26:01 PM
One that I really like is No.12 'The Year 1917' which is supposed to be the worst one. The only one that I don't know at all is No.14. 13, which was lost on me at one time, is now one of my favourites.

+1 for No.12!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on July 24, 2020, 02:01:35 AM
No. 14 is my favourite of the symphonies by some distance. 12 is fine, makes a strong impression live as well. I know I've heard 3 before but I do not remember anything about it, will have to listen again someday.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 24, 2020, 02:43:51 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 23, 2020, 05:16:56 PM
What would you think if I said I really like his Symphony No. 3?  Are we misjudging 2 and 3?

I find 3 at least interesting (in the Petrenko cycle, and Petrenko is noted for holding structures together well).

I'm more devastated at people not liking, or not knowing, no.14.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on July 24, 2020, 03:51:25 AM
3 and especially 2 are both good, but weird. I don't have much love for 12, 13, 14 or 15. I'm sure I'll catch some flak for all that. It's still a work in progress for me, the Shostakovich symphonies.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on July 24, 2020, 04:51:56 AM
No flak here.

Last time I checked, it's a free world.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 24, 2020, 06:31:40 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 24, 2020, 02:43:51 AM
I find 3 at least interesting (in the Petrenko cycle, and Petrenko is noted for holding structures together well).

I'm more devastated at people not liking, or not knowing, no.14.

I know. A big fan of 14, I am.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 24, 2020, 07:28:07 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 24, 2020, 02:43:51 AMI'm more devastated at people not liking, or not knowing, no.14.

Why?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mahlerian on July 24, 2020, 08:41:02 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 24, 2020, 06:31:40 AM
I know. A big fan of 14, I am.

Same here. I think it's one of his most original works, and very moving.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on July 24, 2020, 11:38:17 AM
I need to get to know No.14
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: techniquest on July 25, 2020, 01:25:11 AM
I also need to get to know no.14. I love the 13th (possibly my favourite of his symphonies - the Barshai recording is magnificent), and also the 15th both of which some find rather tricky. I hear some music in the 3rd that leads us to what will be heard in the 4th, which makes that work rather interesting - more so than the rather bland 2nd.
I find myself enjoying the central movements of both 7 & 8 more than the outer movements.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on August 10, 2020, 05:00:24 PM
Today, I might have had an epiphany.  I'm a life long fan of DS but I might have just realized his greatest music was not the symphonies but the chamber music.  This album is so gorgeous and wonderful!  It made me realize, wow, what a great composer!  Also the obvious Germanic lineage to which he has such a deep depth.  But I hear it as orchestral music.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61CgaOhNjfL._SL1400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 10, 2020, 05:02:22 PM
Quote from: relm1 on August 10, 2020, 05:00:24 PM
Today, I might have had an epiphany.  I'm a life long fan of DS but I might have just realized his greatest music was not the symphonies but the chamber music.  This album is so gorgeous and wonderful!  It made me realize, wow, what a great composer!  Also the obvious Germanic lineage to which he has such a deep depth.  But I hear it as orchestral music.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61CgaOhNjfL._SL1400_.jpg)

Great music!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on August 10, 2020, 10:12:07 PM
[depth = debt]

I have never really gotten into op 87.

Love the string quartets, though, particularly the later ones.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on August 11, 2020, 12:49:49 AM
Quote from: Herman on August 10, 2020, 10:12:07 PM
[depth = debt]

I have never really gotten into op 87.

Love the string quartets, though, particularly the later ones.

Overall I think the string quartets are his best music. I have a particular fondness for the mellow, easy-going 6th. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: krummholz on August 11, 2020, 05:13:39 AM
Indeed, I love all of the string quartets. I have yet to hear the Preludes and Fugues but will make it a point to explore them. Of the symphonies, the 14th is one of my favorites, if not my single favorite. I also love the 4th, 5th, 8th, 10th, and 15th. I have yet to hear the 12th -- the only one of DSCH's symphonies that I have not heard.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on August 11, 2020, 05:57:01 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 11, 2020, 12:49:49 AM
Overall I think the string quartets are his best music. I have a particular fondness for the mellow, easy-going 6th.

Which recording/ensemble please?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on August 11, 2020, 06:00:34 AM
Quote from: krummholz on August 11, 2020, 05:13:39 AM
Indeed, I love all of the string quartets. I have yet to hear the Preludes and Fugues but will make it a point to explore them. Of the symphonies, the 14th is one of my favorites, if not my single favorite. I also love the 4th, 5th, 8th, 10th, and 15th. I have yet to hear the 12th -- the only one of DSCH's symphonies that I have not heard.

The 12 is a bit controversial because it is probably his most overtly Soviet symphony with not much subtext unlike the rest of his output which tends to be multilayered and offer up their secrets slowly.  I am generalizing here but I think that is part of why it doesn't resonate as much as the others but I still love it and its very exciting when heard live.  I really like the Bernard Haitink Decca recording.  It is also probably his most bombastic work and for DSCH, that is saying something!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on August 11, 2020, 06:32:21 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 11, 2020, 05:57:01 AM
Which recording/ensemble please?

Borodin (ca 1980); Pacifica, and sometimes Emerson.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on August 11, 2020, 08:00:08 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 11, 2020, 05:57:01 AM
Which recording/ensemble please?

I have to answer your question through gritted teeth. Vinyl rules the world (my world) and on LP I have complete sets from the Borodin and Fitzwilliam and single issues including the likes of Beethoven, Smetana, Gabrielli, Weller and Janacek ensembles. All top choices but for me in this body of works CD rules. Olympia issued the complete set recorded in the 1980's by the Shostakovich SQ. There is a frisson in the playing that beats even the early Borodin. The recording is on the edge but never tips over. I love the set - even if it is CD.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: krummholz on August 11, 2020, 08:49:53 AM
I have the early Borodin for all but #7 and #8... though I prefer the later Borodin in #3.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on August 11, 2020, 04:14:45 PM
The more genres of Shostakovich I explore, the less convinced I am that there's a specific genre he excels in.

Though the string quartets probably are one of the more consistent collections.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 11, 2020, 10:19:17 PM
Quote from: relm1 on August 11, 2020, 06:00:34 AM
The 12 is a bit controversial because it is probably his most overtly Soviet symphony with not much subtext unlike the rest of his output which tends to be multilayered and offer up their secrets slowly.  I am generalizing here but I think that is part of why it doesn't resonate as much as the others but I still love it and its very exciting when heard live.  I really like the Bernard Haitink Decca recording.  It is also probably his most bombastic work and for DSCH, that is saying something!
I've always liked No.12, usually, along with 2 and 3 considered the least successful. It tends to get dismissed as it is heroic-propagandistic and does not lend itself to subversive analysis, unlike its two neighbours, nos. 11 and 13. And yet I've always found it to be quite an exciting score. I must listen to the Haitink as I have his set and think that his No.13 is the best version of all.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 12, 2020, 12:00:10 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 11, 2020, 10:19:17 PM
I've always liked No.12, usually, along with 2 and 3 considered the least successful. It tends to get dismissed as it is heroic-propagandistic and does not lend itself to subversive analysis, unlike its two neighbours, nos. 11 and 13. And yet I've always found it to be quite an exciting score. I must listen to the Haitink as I have his set and think that his No.13 is the best version of all.

I agree with you completely.  Re No.13 - I think that is THE great standout success of the Barshai box set - the Haitink/Concertgebouw is excellent but for me Barshai shades it...... (more to add to your short listening list!)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 12, 2020, 03:53:20 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 12, 2020, 12:00:10 AM
I agree with you completely.  Re No.13 - I think that is THE great standout success of the Barshai box set - the Haitink/Concertgebouw is excellent but for me Barshai shades it...... (more to add to your short listening list!)
Indeed! I do have the Barshai set in a large red Shostakovich box somewhere.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on August 12, 2020, 05:55:03 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 11, 2020, 10:19:17 PM
I've always liked No.12, usually, along with 2 and 3 considered the least successful. It tends to get dismissed as it is heroic-propagandistic and does not lend itself to subversive analysis, unlike its two neighbours, nos. 11 and 13. And yet I've always found it to be quite an exciting score. I must listen to the Haitink as I have his set and think that his No.13 is the best version of all.

I prefer Okko Kamu on 13 over Haitink, but Haitink is very, very solid.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 12, 2020, 06:43:04 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 12, 2020, 05:55:03 AM
I prefer Okko Kamu on 13 over Haitink, but Haitink is very, very solid.
Didn't know there was a Kamu recording. Interesting!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 12, 2020, 07:36:22 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 12, 2020, 06:43:04 AM
Didn't know there was a Kamu recording. Interesting!

Its the Chandos/CBSO recording.  I like Kamu a lot but personally prefer Haitink/Barshai in this instance
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: MusicTurner on August 12, 2020, 11:05:38 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 11, 2020, 06:00:34 AM
The 12 is a bit controversial because it is probably his most overtly Soviet symphony with not much subtext unlike the rest of his output which tends to be multilayered and offer up their secrets slowly.  I am generalizing here but I think that is part of why it doesn't resonate as much as the others but I still love it and its very exciting when heard live.  I really like the Bernard Haitink Decca recording.  It is also probably his most bombastic work and for DSCH, that is saying something!

Agree with everything here.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Undersea on August 14, 2020, 06:25:17 PM
Hello fellow Shostakovich heads - I am looking for a bit more information on these 2 Cycles (which were mentioned a few pages back):

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51KEuYFTukL._AC_.jpg)

This set can be found for a good price at the moment - what I would like to know is are the recordings live like Kitajenko's Prokofiev Cycle?.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71uXF%2Bs2R6L._AC_SL1500_.jpg)

One of the reviews I read of this Cycle said that the tempos were a bit faster than usual which sounded appealing - any truth to that?.

Thanks for your help! :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on August 15, 2020, 06:19:41 AM
It's funny, cos No. 12 is one of my favourites, even with its flaws. Yes, the "programme" is far more successful in No. 11, but No. 12 still works well as music. There are some thrilling passages in there, and the slow movement has some wonderful moments too. And the ending is no more bombastic than that of No. 7.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 15, 2020, 07:45:46 AM
Quote from: Undersea on August 14, 2020, 06:25:17 PM
Hello fellow Shostakovich heads - I am looking for a bit more information on these 2 Cycles (which were mentioned a few pages back):

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51KEuYFTukL._AC_.jpg)

This set can be found for a good price at the moment - what I would like to know is are the recordings live like Kitajenko's Prokofiev Cycle?.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71uXF%2Bs2R6L._AC_SL1500_.jpg)

One of the reviews I read of this Cycle said that the tempos were a bit faster than usual which sounded appealing - any truth to that?.

I can't speak for the Sanderling set - not heard it at all.  I do know Kitajenko Shostakovich and Prokofiev.  Very well played and recorded.  As with much Kitajenko he tends for quite individual, epic interpretations.  Rarely my absolute favourite but always interesting and insightful.  I suppose because I grew up on old Melodiya LP's from Kondrashin and Svetlanov I do tend to prefer that more raw/'catastrophic' approach to DSCH but I do listen to Kitajenko a lot as I enjoy having my preconceptions challenged.  If the price is good I would not hesitate.

Thanks for your help! :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Undersea on August 15, 2020, 07:53:10 AM
QuoteI can't speak for the Sanderling set - not heard it at all.  I do know Kitajenko Shostakovich and Prokofiev.  Very well played and recorded.  As with much Kitajenko he tends for quite individual, epic interpretations.  Rarely my absolute favourite but always interesting and insightful.  I suppose because I grew up on old Melodiya LP's from Kondrashin and Svetlanov I do tend to prefer that more raw/'catastrophic' approach to DSCH but I do listen to Kitajenko a lot as I enjoy having my preconceptions challenged.  If the price is good I would not hesitate.

Cheers - Do you know if the Cycle consists of Live recordings though? (I'm sure the Kitajenko is nice, I'm just looking for something different to what I've already got in my collection...) :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 15, 2020, 08:39:56 AM
Quote from: Undersea on August 15, 2020, 07:53:10 AM
Cheers - Do you know if the Cycle consists of Live recordings though? (I'm sure the Kitajenko is nice, I'm just looking for something different to what I've already got in my collection...) :)

Not all; 1, 4, 7, 8, 11, 15 are live but from memory with little or no audience noise (to be honest can't remember that kind of detail!)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Undersea on August 15, 2020, 08:45:12 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 15, 2020, 08:39:56 AM
Not all; 1, 4, 7, 8, 11, 15 are live but from memory with little or no audience noise (to be honest can't remember that kind of detail!)

Thanks for that (that information is very helpful!) - I'm still interested in the set if it contains a mixture of Live/Session recordings; I think I will probably add the Kitajenko cycle to my Cart shortly...  :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 15, 2020, 01:45:23 PM
Quote from: Undersea on August 14, 2020, 06:25:17 PM
Hello fellow Shostakovich heads - I am looking for a bit more information on these 2 Cycles (which were mentioned a few pages back):

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51KEuYFTukL._AC_.jpg)

This set can be found for a good price at the moment - what I would like to know is are the recordings live like Kitajenko's Prokofiev Cycle?.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71uXF%2Bs2R6L._AC_SL1500_.jpg)

One of the reviews I read of this Cycle said that the tempos were a bit faster than usual which sounded appealing - any truth to that?.

Thanks for your help! :D
Just received the Kitajenko cycle after it had been held up for several months but haven't got round to listening to it yet.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on August 18, 2020, 02:13:04 PM
Quote from: Undersea on August 14, 2020, 06:25:17 PM
One of the reviews I read of this Cycle said that the tempos were a bit faster than usual which sounded appealing - any truth to that?.

I can't speak for Sanderling Jr, but if you want fast tempi in Shostakovich look no further than Caetani, who also ticks the 'live' box.  (Kondrashin is another option if looking for 'fast' but Caetani is much better recorded.)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91qQEWIv7OL._SS500_.jpg)     (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91OJDX6lh4L._SS500_.jpg)   

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91wCBhZVA0L._SS500_.jpg)     (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/9153MRdUaZL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on August 29, 2020, 07:18:01 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/-7ZGlnDW5FQ

There is only one word to describe this composition and interpretation given by Bashmet and Richer: devastating. Utterly devastating.

The funereal tone and pacing of both instruments on that concert hall provides a feeling of living the experience of a human being dying and saying bye. It's an acid, sardonic, deep and sinister farewell. It really moves me. I even heard passages on the viola like imitating devil tickling someone's feet. But there also are moments of unexpected lyricism, and they're more felt in the hectic 2nd movement, whick makes pass to the more serene and resigned Adagio, the longest movement. An overwhelming experience.

The summary of an atormented man suffering how death was getting closer to him. The valedictory work of a musician, his swan song, and not precisely an optimistic one.

By hearing it with that seriousness and total dexterity in a performance of impressive level, with such gravitas and pathos, it made me realize it's a masterpiece of the highest order, a proof to convince those who don't consider Shostakovich a composer of important heights. Moving to the bone.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on August 30, 2020, 01:31:49 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on August 29, 2020, 07:18:01 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/-7ZGlnDW5FQ

There is only one word to describe this composition and interpretation given by Bashmet and Richer: devastating. Utterly devastating.

The funereal tone and pacing of both instruments on that concert hall provides a feeling of living the experience of a human being dying and saying bye. It's an acid, sardonic, deep and sinister farewell. It really moves me. I even heard passages on the viola like imitating devil tickling someone's feet. But there also are moments of unexpected lyricism, and they're more felt in the hectic 2nd movement, whick makes pass to the more serene and resigned Adagio, the longest movement. An overwhelming experience.

The summary of an atormented man suffering how death was getting closer to him. The valedictory work of a musician, his swan song, and not precisely an optimistic one.

By hearing it with that seriousness and total dexterity in a performance of impressive level, with such gravitas and pathos, it made me realize it's a masterpiece of the highest order, a proof to convince those who don't consider Shostakovich a composer of important heights. Moving to the bone.

I have three recordings of the viola sonata (one with Richter) and not one compares with this - you do wonder that great artists save their ultimate performance for concert rather then studio. I have been critical of Richter as a duo partner in the past as he is such a massive musical presence he can overshadow his partner. None of that here as he was the perfect accompanist, although I couldn't take my eyes of him! I dare say Bashmet had some input here. They were very close both musically and physically - I feared for Richter's well-being from Bashmet's baton and left elbow!

Everything you so eloquently write SA is spot on. I was captivated by the whole performance but moments I made note:
At 3.57, falling into a pit of devastation. 7.20 chilling to the bone. 27.30 from Shostakovich via Bashmet, a final scream of pent-up anguish and despair. After the scream, the work - and life itself - petered out to nothingness.

Thank you for posting link.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on August 30, 2020, 01:41:30 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 30, 2020, 01:31:49 AM
I have three recordings of the viola sonata (one with Richter) and not one compares with this - you do wonder that great artists save their ultimate performance for concert rather then studio.


Like more DSCH pieces the Viola Sonata is a rather theatrical piece. It really needs an audience, and it's rather hard to bring to full life without; or rather with an audience of a couple engineers behind the studio glass.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on August 30, 2020, 05:26:30 AM
Quote from: Herman on August 30, 2020, 01:41:30 AM
Like more DSCH pieces the Viola Sonata is a rather theatrical piece. It really needs an audience, and it's rather hard to bring to full life without; or rather with an audience of a couple engineers behind the studio glass.

Must admit it surprises me you find the viola sonata theatrical.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 30, 2020, 07:13:10 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on August 18, 2020, 02:13:04 PM
I can't speak for Sanderling Jr, but if you want fast tempi in Shostakovich look no further than Caetani, who also ticks the 'live' box.  (Kondrashin is another option if looking for 'fast' but Caetani is much better recorded.)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91qQEWIv7OL._SS500_.jpg)     (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91OJDX6lh4L._SS500_.jpg)   

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91wCBhZVA0L._SS500_.jpg)     (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/9153MRdUaZL._SS500_.jpg)

Caetani's 8th is also super zippy, I compared some times below of the 1st mvt, the 4th Largo, and the finale

First Mvt.
Caetani: 20:45
Petrenko: 25:09
Haitink: 25:55
Rost/LSO: 26:35


3rd Mvt.
Caetani: 7:40
Petrenko: 9:34
Haitink: 8:49
Rost/LSO: 12:01


Final Mvt.
Caetani: 12:20 (13:20 with recorded applause)
Haitink: 14:50
Petrenko: 14:46
Rost/LSO: 16:14
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: krummholz on August 30, 2020, 08:19:43 AM
IMO the 1st movement of the 8th needs to be quite slow, so I doubt I'd like Caetani's reading. My favorite recording of this Symphony is Haitink's, though I think his 4th movement is a hair too fast.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on August 30, 2020, 04:18:44 PM
Quote from: krummholz on August 30, 2020, 08:19:43 AM
IMO the 1st movement of the 8th needs to be quite slow, so I doubt I'd like Caetani's reading. My favorite recording of this Symphony is Haitink's, though I think his 4th movement is a hair too fast.

I'm with you.  But you should also check out the Previn/LSO on Deutsche Grammophon.  It's slow but my co-favorite with Haitink.

https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/catalogue/products/shostakovich-symphonie-no-8-previn-1970 (https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/catalogue/products/shostakovich-symphonie-no-8-previn-1970)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 30, 2020, 05:14:50 PM
The Haitink is an excellent Opus 65
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on August 31, 2020, 05:29:02 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 30, 2020, 05:14:50 PM
The Haitink is an excellent Opus 65

It is very good.  I know we always talk about cycles but to me Haitink Decca is an excellent cycle from start to finish.  Sure, there might be one off recordings that are better for any symphony but as a whole, his interpretation, orchestras, performance, and recording are excellent.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 31, 2020, 07:18:16 AM
Pleasantly surprised by this recent release of DSCH's 13th by Muti & CSO. The only time I can remember hearing Muti conduct a DSCH symphony is an older EMI 5th with the Philadelphia SO, but this one of the 13th is remarkable. Muti offers a very tender, and dramatic interpretation that never feels rushed and never hurries past the many instrumental solos. Even the heavier moments of the piece are not overly bombastic, and continue an overall consistent tone throughout the work. This particular closing of the 13th symphony is the best I've ever heard it, the final celesta solo slowly closes out the work, and after the final bell the strings fade all at a pace that feels free from specific tempo. This to me is reminiscent of the closing of the 4th and 8th where triumph and tragedy are musically at odds. The overall effect of this recording is very dark, somber, and beautiful.

Other 13's I already own are Muti/NYP; Temirkanov/St. Petersburg; Jansons/BRSO; and most recently Petrenko/RLPh; and although I haven't actually looked at the timings I can easily tell that the Muti/CSO is slower than the others. 

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2BfMLbRj3L._SX325_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on August 31, 2020, 07:27:49 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 30, 2020, 04:18:44 PM
I'm with you.  But you should also check out the Previn/LSO on Deutsche Grammophon.  It's slow but my co-favorite with Haitink.

Previn/LSO/DG 8th is just listless.  No vitality to it at all.  I like his earlier recording on EMI though, probably my favourite along with Caetani.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 31, 2020, 08:07:37 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on August 31, 2020, 07:27:49 AM
Previn/LSO/DG 8th is just listless.  No vitality to it at all.  I like his earlier recording on EMI though, probably my favourite along with Caetani.

I really like Caetani's 8th too. My other favorites are Bychkov/BP, Jarvi/RSO and a surprise sleeper Slatkin/St. Louis.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 31, 2020, 08:25:31 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 31, 2020, 07:18:16 AM
Pleasantly surprised by this recent release of DSCH's 13th by Muti & CSO. The only time I can remember hearing Muti conduct a DSCH symphony is an older EMI 5th with the Philadelphia SO, but this one of the 13th is remarkable. Muti offers a very tender, and dramatic interpretation that never feels rushed and never hurries past the many instrumental solos. Even the heavier moments of the piece are not overly bombastic, and continue an overall consistent tone throughout the work. This particular closing of the 13th symphony is the best I've ever heard it, the final celesta solo slowly closes out the work, and after the final bell the strings fade all at a pace that all feels free from specific tempo. This to me is reminiscent of the closing of the 4th and 8th where triumph and tragedy are musically at odds. The overall effect of this recording is very dark, somber, and beautiful.

Other 13's I already own are Muti/NYP; Temirkanov/St. Petersburg; Jansons/BRSO; and most recently Petrenko/RLPh; and although I haven't actually looked at the timings I can easily tell that the Muti/CSO is slower than the others. 

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2BfMLbRj3L._SX325_.jpg)

Very nice!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 31, 2020, 08:46:53 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2020, 08:25:31 AM
Very nice!
One of the few versions that I haven't heard.  ::)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 31, 2020, 09:01:53 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 31, 2020, 08:46:53 AM
One of the few versions that I haven't heard.  ::)

I have the CSO Resound release of the Fourth Symphony, and it is superb!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 31, 2020, 09:03:18 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2020, 09:01:53 AM
I have the CSO Resound release of the Fourth Symphony, and it is superb!

Now that is one I haven't heard. Will search for it stream tonight. Thanks for the rec, Karl!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: krummholz on August 31, 2020, 09:07:56 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 31, 2020, 05:29:02 AM
It is very good.  I know we always talk about cycles but to me Haitink Decca is an excellent cycle from start to finish.  Sure, there might be one off recordings that are better for any symphony but as a whole, his interpretation, orchestras, performance, and recording are excellent.

From the symphonies I have in his cycle, I agree. I particularly love his 13th as well...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 31, 2020, 09:20:21 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2020, 09:01:53 AM
I have the CSO Resound release of the Fourth Symphony, and it is superb!
Wow! Sounds to be of great interest Karl.
I recently received the Kitajenko set but haven't sampled it yet.
It was remarkably inexpensive and brand new although I had to wait for ages to receive it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 31, 2020, 09:53:56 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 31, 2020, 09:03:18 AM
Now that is one I haven't heard. Will search for it stream tonight. Thanks for the rec, Karl!

I'm here for you, bud!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BWV 1080 on August 31, 2020, 12:28:49 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 06, 2020, 11:02:49 PM
As in Rachmaninov's First Symphony. Yes, I see that but the end of the Shostakovich seems to me, at one level, to anticipate the end of Tsarist tyranny (only to be replaced, ultimately, by Stalinist tyranny of course).

FWIW, the tyranny began with Lenin and Dzerzhinsky, not Stalin. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on August 31, 2020, 03:20:57 PM
Quote from: Irons on August 30, 2020, 01:31:49 AM
I have three recordings of the viola sonata (one with Richter) and not one compares with this - you do wonder that great artists save their ultimate performance for concert rather then studio. I have been critical of Richter as a duo partner in the past as he is such a massive musical presence he can overshadow his partner. None of that here as he was the perfect accompanist, although I couldn't take my eyes of him! I dare say Bashmet had some input here. They were very close both musically and physically - I feared for Richter's well-being from Bashmet's baton and left elbow!

Everything you so eloquently write SA is spot on. I was captivated by the whole performance but moments I made note:
At 3.57, falling into a pit of devastation. 7.20 chilling to the bone. 27.30 from Shostakovich via Bashmet, a final scream of pent-up anguish and despair. After the scream, the work - and life itself - petered out to nothingness.

Thank you for posting link.

Very interesting to read, Irons, especially the bolded text.

At least there is someone who is not commenting ad nauseam the symphonies besides me.  ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on August 31, 2020, 11:52:18 PM
Quote from: Irons on August 30, 2020, 05:26:30 AM
Must admit it surprises me you find the viola sonata theatrical.

Perhaps you have a negative association with the word "theatrical"?

In my view DSCH's music almost always has a theatrical component. It needs a space and an audience.

I think that very much goes for the Viola Sonata, which is quite bare-bones musically.

Part of the theatre is: "I brought you to this place in anticipation of something big, but I'm going to hold back for a long time."
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on September 01, 2020, 07:39:21 AM
Quote from: Herman on August 31, 2020, 11:52:18 PM
Perhaps you have a negative association with the word "theatrical"?

In my view DSCH's music almost always has a theatrical component. It needs a space and an audience.

I think that very much goes for the Viola Sonata, which is quite bare-bones musically.

Part of the theatre is: "I brought you to this place in anticipation of something big, but I'm going to hold back for a long time."

You have lost me I'm afraid. Not saying your comment doesn't have credence by any means.

 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on September 01, 2020, 07:52:20 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on August 31, 2020, 03:20:57 PM
Very interesting to read, Irons, especially the bolded text.

At least there is someone who is not commenting ad nauseam the symphonies besides me.  ;D

Hands up! I find his chamber works, the string quartets in particular, more interesting then then the symphonies in most cases.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: krummholz on September 01, 2020, 08:31:21 AM
Quote from: Irons on September 01, 2020, 07:52:20 AM
Hands up! I find his chamber works, the string quartets in particular, more interesting then then the symphonies in most cases.

Definitely agree! (the 14th and 15th Symphonies being notable exceptions)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2020, 08:52:17 AM
Quote from: BWV 1080 on August 31, 2020, 12:28:49 PM
FWIW, the tyranny began with Lenin and Dzerzhinsky, not Stalin.
Yes, I understand that. But FWIW I think that for Lenin, tyranny was a means to an end, rather than, as in the case of Stalin, and end in itself. Of course this in no way justifies the 'Red Terror' under Lenin. There is, I think, a genuine historical debate about the extent that Stalinism was a continuation of Leninism or was something quite different.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on September 01, 2020, 11:55:59 PM
Quote from: krummholz on September 01, 2020, 08:31:21 AM
Definitely agree! (the 14th and 15th Symphonies being notable exceptions)

Over-exposure and familiarity does not alter the fact the 5th is a great symphony. To a lesser degree the same can be said for the 8th String Quartet.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: krummholz on September 02, 2020, 03:24:59 AM
Quote from: Irons on September 01, 2020, 11:55:59 PM
Over-exposure and familiarity does not alter the fact the 5th is a great symphony. To a lesser degree the same can be said for the 8th String Quartet.

I certainly didn't mean to slight the 5th, or for that matter the 4th, the 6th, the 8th, or the 10th. IMO all great symphonies as well. I just find the string quartets, on the whole, to be more interesting than the symphonies, on the whole.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on September 02, 2020, 07:03:16 AM
Quote from: krummholz on September 02, 2020, 03:24:59 AM
I certainly didn't mean to slight the 5th, or for that matter the 4th, the 6th, the 8th, or the 10th. IMO all great symphonies as well. I just find the string quartets, on the whole, to be more interesting than the symphonies, on the whole.

I agree. Each symphony you mention is great, I have a fondness for the 11th too. But to get to the heart of DSCH I would plump for the quartets. Or to whittle it down further and get to the very essence, 24 Preludes and Fugues?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 02, 2020, 07:09:11 AM
Quote from: Irons on September 01, 2020, 11:55:59 PM
Over-exposure and familiarity does not alter the fact the 5th is a great symphony. To a lesser degree the same can be said for the 8th String Quartet.

Both great pieces, indeed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: krummholz on September 02, 2020, 07:29:12 AM
Quote from: Irons on September 02, 2020, 07:03:16 AM
I agree. Each symphony you mention is great, I have a fondness for the 11th too. But to get to the heart of DSCH I would plump for the quartets. Or to whittle it down further and get to the very essence, 24 Preludes and Fugues?

So far I've only heard the C Major P & F... a real gem. I definitely need to listen to all of them!

And I neglected to mention the 13th Symphony, another one I would consider a great work, though I think of it more as a cantata than a symphony (I guess that's true of the 14th too, though).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 02, 2020, 10:00:04 AM
new thread idea -  Shostakovich Battles Shostakovich: Symphonies vs String Quartets!

I've always been a symphonic-first, chamber-second type listener with composers, so I'm just now getting through the quartets of DSCH. I'm very familiar with several of them but there are at least 7 or 8 that I've never heard a note from. I just recently ordered this cycle from Quatuor Danel to help remedy this.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81vchLsVg3L._SY355_.jpg)


I would also like to add that the 2nd Piano Trio has broken into my Dimitri's Top 5 in the past year!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 02, 2020, 11:28:34 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 02, 2020, 10:00:04 AM
new thread idea -  Shostakovich Battles Shostakovich: Symphonies vs String Quartets!

I've always been a symphonic-first, chamber-second type listener with composers, so I'm just now getting through the quartets of DSCH. I'm very familiar with several of them but there are at least 7 or 8 that I've never heard a note from. I just recently ordered this cycle from Quatuor Danel to help remedy this.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81vchLsVg3L._SY355_.jpg)


I would also like to add that the 2nd Piano Trio has broken into my Dimitri's Top 5 in the past year!

It earns its place there!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 02, 2020, 02:44:54 PM
It's inevitable that the symphonies and quartets will give you different pictures of Shostakovich because the chronologies are weighted so differently. There aren't any 'early' quarters, only some middle ones and a lot of late ones.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on September 02, 2020, 03:45:18 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 02, 2020, 10:00:04 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81vchLsVg3L._SY355_.jpg)

This is such a paparazzi shot.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on September 02, 2020, 04:18:00 PM
You know who doesn't get enough love?  Maxim Shostakovich.  His Collins semi-cycle with the LSO is terrific!  Those are excellent performances, very well recorded, and distinctive interpretations well worth hearing.  Sadly, he didn't complete the cycle.  He did do a full cycle with the Prague Symphony which are good, but the orchestra and recording aren't as good.  Maxim was a very, very good conductor of his fathers (and other Soviets) music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on September 03, 2020, 12:13:16 AM
Quote from: Madiel on September 02, 2020, 02:44:54 PM
It's inevitable that the symphonies and quartets will give you different pictures of Shostakovich because the chronologies are weighted so differently. There aren't any 'early' quarters, only some middle ones and a lot of late ones.

Very true. The 1st Quartet was written after probably his most famous work the 5th Symphony.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on September 03, 2020, 06:28:46 AM
And the 8th Quartet fits in right next to - wait for it - the 12th Symphony.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jo498 on September 03, 2020, 10:13:39 AM
The first single disc of DSCH quartets I bought did not have opus numbers on the cover, only #6,10 and 14, so I naively thought I would get an early, a middle and a late quartet (as would have been the case with Beethoven's quartets with these numbers (and close enough for Schubert or Dvorak). ;) It wasn't a very good start. A year later or so, I got a disc with 3+5 (Naxos) and one with the Borodin Qt. incl. #8 and all of these were considerably more appealing.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 13, 2020, 06:58:46 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTcXXN1C/R-6203403-1413714476-3152-jpeg.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/TYDYG4jj/R-6203403-1413714476-9568-jpeg.jpg)
Quadrophonic! Rec first in 1958, this version from 1975 is not in surround-sound on the CD release Eugene Ormandy Conducts 20th Century Classics set from 2012.

The cover must represent some sort of idealized hippie Soviet couple.
Or some rot.  There might even be some Freudian suggestion there ...

The sound is quite good.


Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 14, 2020, 03:13:11 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on September 13, 2020, 06:58:46 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTcXXN1C/R-6203403-1413714476-3152-jpeg.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/TYDYG4jj/R-6203403-1413714476-9568-jpeg.jpg)
Quadrophonic! Rec first in 1958, this version from 1975 is not in surround-sound on the CD release Eugene Ormandy Conducts 20th Century Classics set from 2012.

The cover must represent some sort of idealized hippie Soviet couple.
Or some rot.  There might even be some Freudian suggestion there ...

The sound is quite good.
As with much from Ormandy (Symphony 4 and 10) I enjoyed the performance which was recently reissued on a double Dutton CD:
(//)
Review:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/Apr/Shostakovich_sys_2CDLX7370.htm
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on September 15, 2020, 03:05:05 AM
OMG the artist really went to town on Burt Reynolds' chest hair!

Gross.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on September 15, 2020, 05:50:59 AM
Not Burt Reynolds.  Monty Python.

(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/comedy/2018/04/16/lumber_trans%2B%2BH-B8iTnvHdMJgwP0InBQYRkCIv3505E63jNjQF1Hma4.jpg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FshU58nI0Ts
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 15, 2020, 10:14:52 PM
Stumbled across this - I don't think it has been discussed before here:

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF3p_w2PU14

78th Anniversary of Dmitry Shostakovich "Symphony 7 (Leningradskaya)" Premiere in Samara, Russia

The first 20 minutes of rubbish passes quickly enough, but you may wish to skip ahead.
A friend of mine who lives outside of the university grounds was in attendance.
I have to say, the visuals are distracting and take away from the experience, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 15, 2020, 11:23:54 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on September 15, 2020, 10:14:52 PM
Stumbled across this - I don't think it has been discussed before here:

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF3p_w2PU14

78th Anniversary of Dmitry Shostakovich "Symphony 7 (Leningradskaya)" Premiere in Samara, Russia

The first 20 minutes of rubbish passes quickly enough, but you may wish to skip ahead.
A friend of mine who lives outside of the university grounds was in attendance.
I have to say, the visuals are distracting and take away from the experience, in my opinion.

I quite liked the introductory stuff including Shostakovich speaking and playing the piano and I found it interesting to see where Shostakovich lived in Samara. The performance sounded excellent with characteristic Russian horn sounds. Thanks for posting it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on September 17, 2020, 06:19:32 AM
Question: today, "Testimony" is practically universally considered a fraud, right?  Or is there still some controversy as to its authenticity? 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 17, 2020, 06:26:35 AM
Actually, no.  Everything in it has been verified via other sources.  So, if the material is factual, via other avenues, then many scholars consider this to be genuine.  The controversy continues.
Malcolm Hamrick Brown's ... Casebook is probably the best source on the matter.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on September 17, 2020, 07:11:41 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 17, 2020, 06:19:32 AM
Question: today, "Testimony" is practically universally considered a fraud, right?
Yes, it's been completely debunked.
QuoteOr is there still some controversy as to its authenticity?
Not among scholars, but some of the general public still thinks it's true, either due to a lack of information or a particular political orientation.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: MusicTurner on September 17, 2020, 07:31:45 AM
Quote from: amw on September 17, 2020, 07:11:41 AM
Yes, it's been completely debunked.Not among scholars, but some of the general public still thinks it's true, either due to a lack of information or a particular political orientation.

Worth noting however, as also mentioned above, that quite a lot of DSCH close acquaintances etc. originally confirmed some of the anecdotical material in the book, including passages illustrating regime criticism/fear. And you have pieces like Shosty's (hidden) 'Rayok' along those regime-critical lines too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 17, 2020, 07:35:51 AM
better read Brown's anthology, AMW
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on September 17, 2020, 08:05:39 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on September 17, 2020, 07:31:45 AM
Worth noting however, as also mentioned above, that quite a lot of DSCH close acquaintances etc. originally confirmed some of the anecdotical material in the book, including passages illustrating regime criticism/fear. And you have pieces like Shosty's (hidden) 'Rayok' along those regime-critical lines too.
At least as far as I recall it, the controversy is not over whether Shostakovich actually held the views attributed to him (he probably did), but whether Shostakovich himself authored or signed off on any of the content. Current consensus is that he did not except for one brief passage. (I believe Richard Taruskin made the point that if the book was published as Solomon Volkov's personal recollections of Shostakovich, there would never have been any controversy over it; it's the attribution of large parts of the text to Shostakovich himself directly that is inauthentic.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 17, 2020, 08:14:23 AM
Where are you getting your "current consensus" from?  University roundtables?  Because there, it most certainly is not decided either way.  Beware of online sites such as Wikipedia or blogs, because the POV will always be strong.

Read the book by Brown, as it clearly lays out the facts from many different scholarly viewpoints.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 17, 2020, 01:27:38 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on September 17, 2020, 08:14:23 AM
Where are you getting your "current consensus" from?  University roundtables?  Because there, it most certainly is not decided either way.  Beware of online sites such as Wikipedia or blogs, because the POV will always be strong.

Read the book by Brown, as it clearly lays out the facts from many different scholarly viewpoints.

Your own statement was hardly measured from different scholarly viewpoints.You just started with "everything has been verified".

You are not, in fact saying anything much different. Yes, various things have been verified. But as others are saying, that's not the nature of the controversy. The controversy is that the book is presented as if it's first-hand information, not second-hand, as if to boost its authority compared to other material.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 17, 2020, 03:46:37 PM
Correction: I am not saying it - THEY are saying it.  As a guest lecturer, I've attending several of these over the years.  However, Brown's book lays it all out and I suggest everyone curious about the current state of affairs to read it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 17, 2020, 06:06:04 PM
Sure. But my point is it's not logically possible for "there are different scholarly viewpoints" and "everything has been verified" to both be correct statements.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 17, 2020, 06:15:03 PM
Everything in Testimony has been verified via other sources.
That's documented.  The facts can be documented without everyone agreeing that Shostakovich wrote the memoir.
Please .... this is a pointless discussion unless you've read the work entirely devoted to the subject - Malcolm Brown's (ed.) 400 page gathering of various scholars' articles  A Shostakovich Casebook.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 17, 2020, 06:20:32 PM
Thank you for clarifying. The discussion is not pointless.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 19, 2020, 07:57:43 AM
Scion7's posting above encouraged me to listen to the Leningrad Symphony again and I'm currently enjoying this performance which begins with Shostakovich's patriotic speech from besieged Leningrad in 1941:
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 19, 2020, 09:14:12 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y24ZHzPc/R-2500887-1287435186-jpeg.jpg)

How does this one compare?  The only one I have - never picked it up on LP.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 19, 2020, 02:49:02 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on September 19, 2020, 09:14:12 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y24ZHzPc/R-2500887-1287435186-jpeg.jpg)

How does this one compare?  The only one I have - never picked it up on LP.

Not sure but I have the Janson's box set of Shostakovich symphonies and will give it a spin, although I find it hard to imagine how Ashkenazy's relentless build up of the first movement can be improved upon - I've never heard anything like it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on September 19, 2020, 04:12:09 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on September 17, 2020, 06:15:03 PM
Everything in Testimony has been verified via other sources.
That's documented.  The facts can be documented without everyone agreeing that Shostakovich wrote the memoir.
Please .... this is a pointless discussion unless you've read the work entirely devoted to the subject - Malcolm Brown's (ed.) 400 page gathering of various scholars' articles  A Shostakovich Casebook.

What are the scholars saying of Malcolm Brown's book?  Do they concede to it or say this author is out of line?  The review I attached seems to contradict your conclusion and say this book is actually anti-Volkov, not supportive of it.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 19, 2020, 04:14:38 PM
Brown's book is an  anthology OF scholars on the subject.
It's the main source on the topic.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on September 21, 2020, 06:22:53 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on September 19, 2020, 04:14:38 PM
Brown's book is an  anthology OF scholars on the subject.
It's the main source on the topic.

I don't know, you seem to be far more convinced about what Casebook says than what others say it says.  Like this review makes it sound like the conclusion is still that this isn't authentic to Shostakovich but closer to Volkov's opinions attributed to Shostakovich.

A Shostakovich Casebook Edited by Malcolm Hamrick Brown.
Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 2004. 408 pages, facsimiles. $39.95 US (cloth).
ISBN 0-253-34364-X

For the last quarter-century, Shostakovich scholars have been  embroiled in a dispute over the authenticity of Testimony: The Memoirs of Dmitri Shostakovich by Solomon Volkov  (New York : Limelight Editions, 1992, c 1979). When it was first published, Volkov claimed  he had met with  Shostakovich repeatedly  in  order to  capture glimpses into Shostakovich's life, works, and opinions. The book's  authority was no less than "as related to and edited by" Volkov (italics added). In the climate of the Cold War, it received instant notoriety, with many in   the West invoking it  to underscore the depravity of the Soviet  regime. In response, cries of fiaud and  falsehood came from the Soviets, who condemned the book as the vituperation   of an angry, self-exiled dissident. What followed over  the next two decades was a  flurry of scholarly activity,  aimed both at championing and at vilifying Volkov's  work,  in what has become   known   as the "Shostakovich wars." The resulting scholarship has, indeed, shed much new and positive light on Shostakovich's    work, and provoked fiesh and  critical  listening to his oeuvre. This  present volume has a  clear and pointed agenda, which it  proclaims in its opening sentence, almost as if  throwing down the gauntlet: "It matters that Testimony is not exactly what  Solomon Volkov has claimed it to be." From there it proceeds   tirelessly,   relentlessly, to acheve that goal-to disprove and discredit these supposed "memoirs" of Shostakovich. In order to do so, Brown has  compiled  twenty-five  essays from leading    Shostakovich    scholars, per- formers,    and acquaintances of the composer. The  essays are grouped into four  thematically-linked  parts, each of which serves the objective of undermining Testimony. Each  essay is dated immediately following the title, demonstrating the currency of the scholarship. The introduction sets out not  only the direction, but also how the book is structured and what purpose each essay serves; the clarity of this section is immensely helphl in guiding the reader  through the rest of the book, and it  cannot be omitted. Part 1 is  the cornerstone, presenting two essays by Laurel Fay that lay the foundation for all of the subsequent material. Being separated by twenty-two years (1980    and 2002), there is noticeable  evolution in her argument. The first essay,    "Shostakovich vs. Volkov: Whose Testimony" (presumably the first declaration of the war in  the English  language), begins to dissect the problems in Volkov's work, but   ends rather abruptly. The second,  however, "Volkov's Testimony Reconsidered," leaves no stone unturned as it  outlines the multiplicity of problems    and addresses them with  such precision that any dispassionate    reader    will be persuaded that Volkov's work is unquestionably suspect. The   synoptic conclusion is that this is  a  book about rather than by Shostakovich. For example, her analysis of the chronology of events of research and publication clearly  puts Volkov's own  recollection of their order into dispute; progressively she attacks countless similar details until
Volkov is left with no credibility at all.
Fay's  work is an excellent  example of seasoned, cutting-edge  scholarship. The writing style is fluid  in  both  essays.  It should be noted  that Fay also provided many of the translations used in  the book, and these are equally idiomatic. Because Fay's  work is  so thorough, each of the remaining  parts  exists as corollary  proof to the arguments she makes.   Part 2 is a   series of eleven sources  translated from Russian. 

First, several text comparisons demonstrate the high probability that Volkov "borrowed" widely from     pre-existent sources, undermining  his claims that  all of the materials in Testimony had been discussed  directly  between  himself and Shostakovich. Subsequent items include writings such as official denunciations of Testimony by the composer's  colleagues and fellow composers, an explanation by Shostakovich's  widow of his signature on various of Volkov's manuscript pages, and a retrospectus by Rostropovich which debunks Shosta- kovich's    alleged    criticism of other composers in the memoirs.  Despite an occasional interesting anecdote,   each item in this part devotes itself to proving one  or another of Fay's claims, or to disproving the surface arguments proferred by Volkov's supporters. Part 3 consists of four additional Russian sources, intended to address more tangentially the vitriol of Volkov and to demonstrate  that   Shostakovich was not the personality    that one encounters in Volkov's pages. Two of the key articles, "A Link in the Chain: Reflections on Shostakovich and His Times" (1976)  and "A Perspective on Soviet   Musical Culture during the Lifetime of Shostakovich" (1998), again present viewpoints separated by substantial  time.  Partly  because of the subject  matter, and partly  due  to  the writing style, these are heavier  reading, not unlike   much of Shostakovich's music itself.  While offering some good insights into  the difficult  political  and spiritual climate of Soviet musicians, neither lives up   to its title in any exhaustive  way, and one  will need to look to other sources for greater depth of information. In keeping with the goal of the   book, one essay is devoted to rehting the positions of Volkov's  chief protagonists, Ho  and Feofanov, in their counter-volume, Shostakovich Recon- sidered (london: Toccata Press, 1998). In part 4, eight   English-speaking authors write  on  various topics,  from reviews of books about  Shostakovich to additional   opinion    pieces, including three by the general editor, Brown. One article in particular, "The Shostakovich Variations" by Mitchinson, provides a complete synopsis and is  effectively the digest version of the controversy; this might have been  a better piece to begin the book.  Overall, the opinions in this part are reasonably   informed, but do little to   advance  any   argument.  The writing is of  variable and  occasionally awkward quality (there are surely better terms than "emblematize" or "foregrounding"), and there is some logical     fallacy     in     spending time defending authors who appear elsewhere in the  book, all of whom survive better on their own merits. The book concludes with an extensive though not  exhaustive bibliography, terse  biographies of each of the authors, and an index. Let it be said that this book achieves what it sets out to   do; it discredits Volkov and his defenders with a precision seldom seen in scholarly print. However,  in the end it  must be asked what this   book has done to clarify matters in the war. As a work   of scholarship, it  is consistently  first-rate, despite    some redundancy in the "proving."   But it appears to fall into some of the very traps that it  identifies with the enemy. For instance, Ho and Feofanov are chided because "a range of contrary perspectives is not represented." Yet any dissenting opinion raised  in Casebook is there only to be soundly refuted-this is hardly representation of contrary  perspectives. It would  also  appear that despite the attempts to discredit Volkov's  assertions about hidden meanings in Shostakovich's music, Casebook discusses  that  particular  aspect enough to leave the question still open. Furthermore,   various authors concede that Volkov accurately represented many aspects of the oppression of Soviet composers,  including  Shostakovich. Yet the thoroughness  with  which Volkov is undermined renders it virtually impossible    for anyone to utilize Testimony as    a source   of reliable information. Would it  not have been  a better tactic to specify which parts of Volkov's work ring true, thereby leaving us with  at least a  few glimpses  into the composer's  work and character? Having read Testimony almost twenty years ago, I can still remember the poignancy of the anecdote   that    Shostakovich   kept a packed suitcase near    his    bed,    not knowing if he might be arrested and taken away during the middle of  the night.    That single    anecdote spoke volumes about the pain,  oppression, and uncertainty that Shostakovich  endured under the Soviet regime. Or did it? To paraphrase Shostakovich's (or is it Vokov's?) "we go on our way rejoicing"  comment, at the conclusion of this book the authors can rightly  assert that "we go  on our way vindicated." Unfortunately, there has been both  a constructive and a  damaging result to scholarship about Shostakovich, and the book may have  fallen into the trap of self-service for which Volkov is maligned. In the end, like Testimony, this is another book not about Shostakovich, but about Volkov.

Jon Gonder University of Pitts'burgh at Johnstown
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on September 21, 2020, 06:49:38 AM
Here is a partial summary and some ruminations on Laurel Fay's challenge to the authenticity of Volkov's Testimony that I wrote for another forum:

Laurel Fay challenged the authenticity of Testimony within a year of its publication and her evidence has never been convincingly countered. (See "Shostakovich versus Volkov: Whose Testimony?" In Russian Review 39, no. 4 (1980), 484-92, and an update of this essay published in Malcolm Brown's A Shostakovich Case Book.) Anyone who has not read and come to terms with Fay's evidence has no business holding an opinion on the authenticity of Testimony. To summarize her case:

The main evidence for the authenticity of Testimony is that, in a typescript of the book, Shostakovich's signature (initials) appears on the first page of seven of its chapters, allegedly indicating that the composer read and vouched for the text's accuracy. But Fay demonstrated that those seven initial pages (and only those seven pages!) were cribbed from the opening paragraphs of articles previously published under Shostakovich's name. Volkov is thus asking us to believe that Shostakovich began each of their sessions together by regurgitating nearly word for word and from memory, three hundred words of a previously published article, some of which are suspected of having been ghost written by party hacks and not by the composer! This is absurd and if anyone has a good explanation for it other than fraud I've yet to hear it.

Fay hypothesized about how the fraud was perpetrated: What Volkov might have done was go to Shostakovich with a typescript of a book, the contents of which consisted entirely of articles previously published under Shostakovich's name and thus already vetted for political correctness. Volkov made only minor changes to correct dated references that would sound strange when reprinted decades after they were written. He got Shostakovich to initial the first pages of these articles. Given that Volkov was then the editor of a major music journal, it would have made perfect sense to the composer that he might be collecting  a series of articles by Shostakovich to be published under one cover. Then Volkov took those pages with the composer's initials and used them as the first pages of each of Testimony's chapters, discarding the rest of each article and substituting his own fabrications and collected third hand gossip for the pages he had shown Shostakovich. This is more obvious when one sees the discontinuity between the first page of each chapter and what follows. Fay points out how ludicrous it is to think that Shostakovich, when interviewed by Volkov, would have reproduced those seven first pages—and only those pages!—nearly verbatim, before digressing into new material on every second page. Testimony is a fraud. Anyone reading Fay objectively will see it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 21, 2020, 06:52:41 AM
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 21, 2020, 06:49:38 AM
Here is a partial summary and some ruminations on Laurel Fay's challenge to the authenticity of Volkov's Testimony that I wrote for another forum:

Laurel Fay challenged the authenticity of Testimony within a year of its publication and her evidence has never been convincingly countered. (See "Shostakovich versus Volkov: Whose Testimony?" In Russian Review 39, no. 4 (1980), 484-92, and an update of this essay published in Malcolm Brown's A Shostakovich Case Book.) Anyone who has not read and come to terms with Fay's evidence has no business holding an opinion on the authenticity of Testimony. To summarize her case:

The main evidence for the authenticity of Testimony is that, in a typescript of the book, Shostakovich's signature (initials) appears on the first page of seven of its chapters, allegedly indicating that the composer read and vouched for the text's accuracy. But Fay demonstrated that those seven initial pages (and only those seven pages!) were cribbed from the opening paragraphs of articles previously published under Shostakovich's name. Volkov is thus asking us to believe that Shostakovich began each of their sessions together by regurgitating nearly word for word and from memory, three hundred words of a previously published article, some of which are suspected of having been ghost written by party hacks and not by the composer! This is absurd and if anyone has a good explanation for it other than fraud I've yet to hear it.

Fay hypothesized about how the fraud was perpetrated: What Volkov apparently did was go to Shostakovich with a typescript of a book, the contents of which consisted entirely of articles previously published under Shostakovich's name and thus already vetted for political correctness. Volkov made only minor changes to correct dated references that would sound strange when reprinted decades after they were written. He got Shostakovich to initial the first pages of these articles. Given that Volkov was then the editor of a major music journal, it would have made perfect sense to the composer that he might be collecting  a series of articles by Shostakovich to be published under one cover. Then Volkov took those pages with the composer's initials and used them as the first pages of each of Testimony's chapters, discarding the rest of each article and substituting his own fabrications and collected third hand gossip for the pages he had shown Shostakovich. This is more obvious when one sees the discontinuity between the first page of each chapter and what follows. Fay points out how ludicrous it is to think that Shostakovich, when interviewed by Volkov, would have reproduced those seven first pages—and only those pages!—nearly verbatim, before digressing into new material on every second page. Testimony is a fraud. Anyone reading Fay objectively will see it.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 21, 2020, 07:02:00 AM
The book contains her views.  Which is only an opinion, others disagree, therefore the question is still open.  I've seen some rowdy debates at two separarte university roundtables.   :)  I wasn't there (in Russia) - I don't know if the memoirs are 'real' or not.  But there are scholarly opinions on both sides of the aisle.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 21, 2020, 07:07:18 AM
It's an opinion with damned good legs under it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on September 23, 2020, 04:34:25 PM
Folks please, what's your favorite recording of Symphony No. 6?  What are your thoughts of this work?  One thing that I adore as a deep aficionado of Shostakovich's work is how he doesn't repeat himself but constantly develops.  Think of how No. 1-2-3-4-5-6, etc. are NOTHING alike!  Each takes up where the other leaves off in a lifelong autobiographical traversal along with the other greatest symphonists.  Yes, yes, there are his fingerprints present throughout but musicologically speaking, one cannot say any one work is a repeat but rather a further development.  It's sort of like a further development, revision or elaboration of what I previously meant.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 23, 2020, 04:41:26 PM
Quote from: relm1 on September 23, 2020, 04:34:25 PM
Folks please, what's your favorite recording of Symphony No. 6?  What are your thoughts of this work?  One thing that I adore as a deep aficionado of Shostakovich's work is how he doesn't repeat himself but constantly develops.  Think of how No. 1-2-3-4-5-6, etc. are NOTHING alike!  Each takes up where the other leaves off in a lifelong autobiographical traversal along with the other greatest symphonists.  Yes, yes, there are his fingerprints present throughout but musicologically speaking, one cannot say any one work is a repeat but rather a further development.  It's sort of like a further development, revision or elaboration of what I previously meant.

Possibly Temirkanov/St Petersburg Phil.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 23, 2020, 10:14:26 PM
Quote from: relm1 on September 23, 2020, 04:34:25 PM
Folks please, what's your favorite recording of Symphony No. 6?  What are your thoughts of this work?  One thing that I adore as a deep aficionado of Shostakovich's work is how he doesn't repeat himself but constantly develops.  Think of how No. 1-2-3-4-5-6, etc. are NOTHING alike!  Each takes up where the other leaves off in a lifelong autobiographical traversal along with the other greatest symphonists.  Yes, yes, there are his fingerprints present throughout but musicologically speaking, one cannot say any one work is a repeat but rather a further development.  It's sort of like a further development, revision or elaboration of what I previously meant.

I'm off to work, so briefly, my favourites are Jarvi on Chandos, which is beautifully recorded, Stokowski and Boult. Also Berglund.

PS wasn't Ian MacDonald in 'The New Shostakovich' highly critical of the Laurel Fay book?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on September 23, 2020, 11:28:58 PM
I like 6, too.

I have Haitink and Kondrashin.

Frankly I don't think DSCH symphonies work very well in home setting (this feeling of mine that its really rather theatrical music that belongs in the concert hall), so I don't have heaps of recordings.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on September 24, 2020, 12:20:20 AM
Quote from: Herman on September 23, 2020, 11:28:58 PM
I like 6, too.

I have Haitink and Kondrashin.

Frankly I don't think DSCH symphonies work very well in home setting (this feeling of mine that its really rather theatrical music that belongs in the concert hall), so I don't have heaps of recordings.

Mravinsky is special in all the DSCH symphonies but the 6th tops the lot. Outstanding concert from 1965 held in the Great Hall of the Moscow Conservatoire. The Sibelius 7th is equally as good. Some concert!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 24, 2020, 01:11:13 AM
This was a very special set until it was stolen out of my car (by a gang of Shostakovich LP thieves?)
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: krummholz on September 24, 2020, 03:17:39 AM
I like the 6th as well, especially the 1st movement. I have only heard Stokowski and Jarvi, and prefer Jarvi.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 24, 2020, 04:32:37 AM
The lopsided structure of the 6th puzzled me for a while. Until I mentally turned it into 2 halves. It just happens that the second half has a gap in the middle.

As for performances, I only have Petrenko. But I like Petrenko's set.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on September 24, 2020, 05:31:24 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on September 21, 2020, 07:02:00 AM
The book contains her views.  Which is only an opinion, others disagree, therefore the question is still open.  I've seen some rowdy debates at two separarte university roundtables.   :)  I wasn't there (in Russia) - I don't know if the memoirs are 'real' or not.  But there are scholarly opinions on both sides of the aisle.

What you're missing is that the difference of opinion and the support for Volkov has never focused on the issue of the actual documentary evidence, to which I should add one bit before proceeding: Laurel Fay points out that Volkov claimed (or claims) to be in possession of his shorthand transcriptions of his interviews with Shostakovich. She asked him to produce them, which would have been convincing documentary evidence in support of the text's authenticity. He didn't and won't. The reason is obvious. Anyway, the primary arguments from Volkov's supporters have been statements by the composer's friends, family, acquaintances, and hangers-on to the effect that the views expressed in Testimony are ones they knew/know to have been held by the composer. Alas, all such arguments are wholly irrelevant to the question of Testimony's authenticity. What is at issue is not whether the views in the book resemble those of Shostakovich — such resemblance could be the result of gathering third hand gossip from people who knew Shostakovich. They prove nothing. The issue is whether there is good reason to believe that any particular statement in Testimony can reliably be attributed to the composer. Unless those actual statements are corroborated in other more reliable sources, the answer is a resounding no.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 24, 2020, 05:39:50 AM
^ I'm not missing anything.  :-)  I'm relating that the issue has not yet reached consensus.  Nor am I taking a side.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on September 24, 2020, 05:44:14 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 23, 2020, 04:34:25 PM
Folks please, what's your favorite recording of Symphony No. 6?  What are your thoughts of this work?  One thing that I adore as a deep aficionado of Shostakovich's work is how he doesn't repeat himself but constantly develops.  Think of how No. 1-2-3-4-5-6, etc. are NOTHING alike!  Each takes up where the other leaves off in a lifelong autobiographical traversal along with the other greatest symphonists.  Yes, yes, there are his fingerprints present throughout but musicologically speaking, one cannot say any one work is a repeat but rather a further development.  It's sort of like a further development, revision or elaboration of what I previously meant.

Kondrashin is the only conductor I've heard who doesn't drag the first movement and doesn't let the long wind solos bog down the forward motion. When done his way, the Sixth is one of my favorites (along with 8, 4, 10, 13 and 15).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on September 24, 2020, 05:47:42 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on September 24, 2020, 05:39:50 AM
^ I'm not missing anything.  :-)  I'm relating that the issue has not yet reached consensus.  Nor am I taking a side.

The consensus that matters is how many (if any) serious critics and scholars quote Testimony with an unconflicted attribution to the composer. I'd be surprised if there are any who would do this today. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 24, 2020, 05:50:29 AM
shrugs  -  Brown's book is the main source
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 24, 2020, 05:55:09 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on September 24, 2020, 05:50:29 AM
shrugs  -  Brown's book is the main source

This is getting tiresome as a fall-back position any time someone challenges your initial statements.

As is the "I'm not taking a side" language. Well sorry, but your initial contribution very much came across as taking a side. Maybe that's not what you intended to convey, but it's clearly what you conveyed to a whole bunch of different readers. Pretty well all of us are saying very similar things, except you. And all that you keep saying now is "I have no opinion, I'm just telling you to go read a book".

Coupled with intimations that no-one is allowed to have an opinion unless they've read said book. Which is a little ironic, given that everyone else seems to have an opinion, whereas you keep professing not to have one despite having read the book.

Maybe we should just stop talking about this, because the conversation is inevitably going around in circles.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 24, 2020, 05:56:03 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 23, 2020, 10:14:26 PM
PS wasn't Ian MacDonald in 'The New Shostakovich' highly critical of the Laurel Fay book?

I think that's chronologically reversed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 24, 2020, 05:58:00 AM
re: Symphony 6

I've always liked this one.  But it may be the cover influencing me - the LSO in 1974 was really no joy.


(https://img.discogs.com/LnWsKqSm8kajlGTSppJv0CSkOWE=/fit-in/600x596/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3932997-1349789954-9329.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 24, 2020, 06:00:24 AM
Quote from: Madiel on September 24, 2020, 05:55:09 AM
This is getting tiresome as a fall-back position any time someone challenges your initial statements.
As is the "I'm not taking a side" language. Well sorry, but your initial contribution very much came across as taking a side. Maybe that's not what you intended to convey, but it's clearly what you conveyed to a whole bunch of different readers.

Sorry about that - but the fact remains - and that's how I'll respond.  As to the other, that's an impression you've assumed that I never stated - only that there was not yet a scholarly consensus.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on September 24, 2020, 06:03:55 AM
Okay, have it your way. I'm going to listen to nr 6 now.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 24, 2020, 06:09:20 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 24, 2020, 05:56:03 AM
I think that's chronologically reversed.

Ah, OK - thanks Karl.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 24, 2020, 06:20:12 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on September 24, 2020, 06:00:24 AM
Sorry about that - but the fact remains - and that's how I'll respond.  As to the other, that's an impression you've assumed that I never stated - only that there was not yet a scholarly consensus.

Sigh. Please go and actually read your first post where you declared everything verified. I read what you stated.

And that is all I have to say on the matter. Good night.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on September 24, 2020, 11:18:48 AM
Quote from: amw on September 17, 2020, 08:05:39 AM
At least as far as I recall it, the controversy is not over whether Shostakovich actually held the views attributed to him (he probably did), but whether Shostakovich himself authored or signed off on any of the content. Current consensus is that he did not except for one brief passage. (I believe Richard Taruskin made the point that if the book was published as Solomon Volkov's personal recollections of Shostakovich, there would never have been any controversy over it; it's the attribution of large parts of the text to Shostakovich himself directly that is inauthentic.)

When I posted recently I had missed that you wrote pretty much the same thing a couple of pages back!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 24, 2020, 12:31:02 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on September 24, 2020, 05:58:00 AM
re: Symphony 6

I've always liked this one.  But it may be the cover influencing me - the LSO in 1974 was really no joy.


(https://img.discogs.com/LnWsKqSm8kajlGTSppJv0CSkOWE=/fit-in/600x596/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3932997-1349789954-9329.jpeg.jpg)

I liked Previn's recording as well. I like nearly all of his Shostakovich recording apart from the DGG No.8. His earlier recording, however, was one of the best.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on September 24, 2020, 10:03:19 PM
Happy birthday! Celebrating with some Russian Rock:

https://www.youtube.com/v/zI9Mbu8oVbk

This guy has more videos performing other classical music pieces. I think his arrangements are very cool. Very worth checking out.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 24, 2020, 10:56:29 PM
Quote from: Madiel on September 24, 2020, 06:20:12 AM
Sigh.

Try a bromide?  Do you take what should be just a discussion so personally, old boy? Your tone seems sarcastic and accusatory - relax.  I said the events in the alleged memoir are verified - and that's documented. I also said the facts can be documented while the book can be false.  I do wish you'd acquire Brown's book and read it ... and accept people may disagree with you - from time to time.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 24, 2020, 11:45:09 PM
(https://img.discogs.com/S02D99k4w3z1gkymcJfGL8pBAWg=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8849406-1470058115-9925.jpeg.jpg)

I see that EMI released this in a 1999 remastered version on CD.
Oh, well, can't replace everything on platters ... I'd wind up in the poor house!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on September 25, 2020, 12:26:00 AM
I have no idea what it means to claim that I'm taking a discussion 'personally', not least when I've specifically said I have nothing more to say on the matter.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 25, 2020, 07:18:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 24, 2020, 12:31:02 PM
I liked Previn's recording as well. I like nearly all of his Shostakovich recording apart from the DGG No.8. His earlier recording, however, was one of the best.

You've prompted me to dig this recording out - albeit in the slightly oddly coupling of Rach. Symphony 3 - another classical Previn/LSO performance
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on September 25, 2020, 07:45:09 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 25, 2020, 07:18:35 AM
You've prompted me to dig this recording out - albeit in the slightly oddly coupling of Rach. Symphony 3 - another classical Previn/LSO performance

Rach Symphony 1 is outstanding too. Come to think of it, Symphonic Dances as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: JBS on September 25, 2020, 07:56:45 AM
This quote from DSCH popped up in my Twitter feed thid morning

When a man is in despair, it means that he still believes in something.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 25, 2020, 08:42:47 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/F6xhwWlL6t7UIxkGHmyOAH5hx9U=/fit-in/600x605/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6426884-1419264477-8942.jpeg.jpg)

reissued 2008 on CD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on September 25, 2020, 10:33:09 AM
Happy 114th birthday, DSCH!

Listening to the Fifth Symphony, with the Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra and conductor David Afkham (new to me), recorded live in February 2017. Sound quality on YouTube, if not ideal, keeps getting better and better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg0M4LzEITQ

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 25, 2020, 11:15:13 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/5CFd-8A4bZ95iueBelJVlCCOE8o=/fit-in/600x606/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7044198-1432422166-3236.jpeg.jpg)

not the best version in existence, especially the 2nd movement, but has a fast tempo that makes it different - if perhaps inappropriate ...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on September 25, 2020, 12:17:18 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on September 25, 2020, 11:15:13 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/5CFd-8A4bZ95iueBelJVlCCOE8o=/fit-in/600x606/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7044198-1432422166-3236.jpeg.jpg)

not the best version in existence, especially the 2nd movement, but has a fast tempo that makes it different - if perhaps inappropriate ...

Ooh, I used to love some of those Ansermet recordings, but haven't heard this one. In my book, a fast tempo could work fine in this piece, but then, my range of what is "persuasive" is pretty wide.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on September 25, 2020, 04:10:11 PM
DS resided in Samara for a while during WW II - here one can purchase his CD's.
Back entrance, and front of the store. September 25, 2020.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NfJzLMCd/Screen-Shot-2020-09-25-at-8-07-29-AM.png) (https://i.postimg.cc/7YfNsNXN/Samara-Store.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 08, 2020, 08:16:32 AM
New release:
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 08, 2020, 11:29:17 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 08, 2020, 08:16:32 AM
New release:
(//)

but not Shostakovich fils.....?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 08, 2020, 11:35:10 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 08, 2020, 11:29:17 AM
but not Shostakovich fils.....?

No, indeed. Especially as I think that his HMV/Melodiya recording of Symphony 15 has never been surpassed. I'm not even sure that it's ever been released on CD.
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: MusicTurner on October 08, 2020, 11:43:43 AM
Do you know of a detailed content list (conductors per symphony)? I looked around, but didn't find it ...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 08, 2020, 11:57:48 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on October 08, 2020, 11:43:43 AM
Do you now of a detailed content list (conductors per symphony)? I looked around, but didn't find it ...

Not officially released until tomorrow I think.
OK, here goes:

No.1 Rozhdestvensky
No.2 Gergiev
No.3 Rozhdestvensky
No.4 Barshai
No.5 Maxim - so he is there after all!
No.6 Jurowski
No.7 Ivanov
No.8 Mravinsky
No.9 Gergiev
No.10 Maxim and Mravinsky
No.11 Rozhdestvensky
No.12 Mravinsky
No.13 Kondrashin
No.14 Jurowski
No.15 Kondrashin

Think that's right but done in a rush + some shorter works.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: MusicTurner on October 08, 2020, 11:59:14 AM
Thank you!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 08, 2020, 12:00:41 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 08, 2020, 11:29:17 AM
but not Shostakovich fils.....?

Actually RS Maxim does conduct symphs 5 and 10.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 08, 2020, 12:27:39 PM
Quote from: MusicTurner on October 08, 2020, 11:59:14 AM
Thank you!

My pleasure!

Other works included are:

Incidental Music to King Lear (Theatrical production)
Theme and Variations in B flat major, Op.3
Excerpts from The Gadfly
Festive Overture
Scherzo for Orchestra Op.1
+ Premiere recording of Symphony No.10 (1954/Mravinsky)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 08, 2020, 02:05:07 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 08, 2020, 12:00:41 PM
Actually RS Maxim does conduct symphs 5 and 10.

I assume those are the ex-Collins/LSO performances (which I've never heard) rather than the the old Melodiya/HMV recordings I grew up with....?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on October 09, 2020, 06:43:33 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 08, 2020, 02:05:07 PM
I assume those are the ex-Collins/LSO performances (which I've never heard) rather than the the old Melodiya/HMV recordings I grew up with....?

That would be an interesting approach.  The Great Russian Conductors with English orchestras.  I have the Collins recordings of No. 5, 8, and I think 10 (can't remember).  They are excellent and very western sounding so it's interesting approach they didn't stick with Russian orchestras since I'm sure all those conductors worked with the Soviet orchestras in their day.  It might be a mix of Collins and Melodiya though.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 09, 2020, 12:55:14 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 08, 2020, 02:05:07 PM
I assume those are the ex-Collins/LSO performances (which I've never heard) rather than the the old Melodiya/HMV recordings I grew up with....?

Yes, I just checked - they are both from Collins Classics.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on December 09, 2020, 11:45:38 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/tRxm1wM4/Shostakovitch-Samara-Dec2020.jpg)

statue of DS in Samara yesterday - park by the Opera theater ... it was -14C outside   ???

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on December 24, 2020, 07:33:07 AM
Listening to "The Limpid Stream" , with Rozhdestvensky conducting the Royal Stockholm Philharmonic, as I'm starting preparing Christmas dinner.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on December 24, 2020, 09:05:53 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on December 24, 2020, 07:33:07 AM
Listening to "The Limpid Stream" , with Rozhdestvensky conducting the Royal Stockholm Philharmonic, as I'm starting preparing Christmas dinner.

Now listening to The Bolt. Same conductor and ensemble.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on December 24, 2020, 10:50:47 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on December 09, 2020, 11:45:38 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/tRxm1wM4/Shostakovitch-Samara-Dec2020.jpg)

statue of DS in Samara yesterday - park by the Opera theater ... it was -14C outside   ???
Great!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on December 25, 2020, 06:30:41 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on December 24, 2020, 09:05:53 AM
Now listening to The Bolt. Same conductor and ensemble.

Of his ballets I've only heard The Golden Age. What an incredibly fun work. I should have added to my best discoveries of this year.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on December 25, 2020, 01:33:42 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on December 25, 2020, 06:30:41 AM
Of his ballets I've only heard The Golden Age. What an incredibly fun work. I should have added to my best discoveries of this year.

It is my favourite of Shostakovich's ballets!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 25, 2020, 06:17:06 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on December 25, 2020, 01:33:42 PM
It is my favourite of Shostakovich's ballets!

Mine, as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Leo K. on February 26, 2021, 10:30:05 AM
Wow, Shosta's Symphony No. 12 is one of my favorite works by him now - it is so driving with so much orchestral beauty! (conducted by Thomas Sanderling - loving this cycle)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on February 26, 2021, 11:14:45 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 26, 2021, 10:30:05 AM
Wow, Shosta's Symphony No. 12 is one of my favorite works by him now - it is so driving with so much orchestral beauty! (conducted by Thomas Sanderling - loving this cycle)

That is odd I can't remotely recall that symphony at all.  I should give it a fresh listen.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on February 27, 2021, 12:55:23 AM
Forgettable music - thank goodness!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on February 27, 2021, 05:15:52 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 26, 2021, 10:30:05 AM
Wow, Shosta's Symphony No. 12 is one of my favorite works by him now - it is so driving with so much orchestral beauty! (conducted by Thomas Sanderling - loving this cycle)
I like No.12 as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 27, 2021, 05:29:59 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 26, 2021, 10:30:05 AM
Wow, Shosta's Symphony No. 12 is one of my favorite works by him now - it is so driving with so much orchestral beauty! (conducted by Thomas Sanderling - loving this cycle)

I'll have to revisit the 12th as I really used to like it when I was first discovering Shostakovich's symphonies, but I admit that my interest in it has waned comparatively to most of the other symphonies as time has gone by.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on February 27, 2021, 05:40:46 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 26, 2021, 11:14:45 AM
That is odd I can't remotely recall that symphony at all.  I should give it a fresh listen.

You could do that, or you could listen to the slow movement of Miaskovsky's 24th for a refresher. ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on February 27, 2021, 08:07:44 AM
Quote from: BasilValentine on February 27, 2021, 05:40:46 AM
You could do that, or you could listen to the slow movement of Miaskovsky's 24th for a refresher. ;)

Okay will do, I've queued up the Svetlanov recording.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on February 28, 2021, 05:14:49 AM
The outright disdain for No. 12 baffles me. Unlike No. 11 where the programme is necessary, you can discard that for No. 12 and appreciate the music on its own merit.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on February 28, 2021, 05:48:06 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on February 28, 2021, 05:14:49 AM
The outright disdain for No. 12 baffles me. Unlike No. 11 where the programme is necessary, you can discard that for No. 12 and appreciate the music on its own merit.

I don't think it is disdain, just shallow.  It is sort of like a loud action movie, sure sometimes they are great and lots to enjoy...maybe have quieter, reflective moments, but ultimately get a bit repetitive, formulaic, and predictable.  If a work reveals its secrets more slowly, they than tend to reward repeated listening.  With 12, you feel you get what all it has to say in a first hearing.  I'm a fan of it but don't consider it in his top 10 symphonies.  It's a lot of fun especially if you have the opportunity to hear it live but something I can go years between a listen.  No. 11, I practically have heard every recording made and heard it live multiple times.  It's just a better symphony.  I also absolutely loved a terrifying performance of it that has never been recorded so always seek to recapture that terrifying coda with the savage intensity that no recording I've heard quite captures.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on March 01, 2021, 05:44:27 AM
Quote from: BasilValentine on February 27, 2021, 05:40:46 AM
You could do that, or you could listen to the slow movement of Miaskovsky's 24th for a refresher. ;)

Not sure what that was about.  I listened to both symphonies and did not hear anything in common between the two.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on March 01, 2021, 05:47:59 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 28, 2021, 05:48:06 AM
I don't think it is disdain, just shallow.  It is sort of like a loud action movie, sure sometimes they are great and lots to enjoy...maybe have quieter, reflective moments, but ultimately get a bit repetitive, formulaic, and predictable. 

Well the entire second movement and frequent passages in the finale are quiet and introspective so I'm not getting this.  Maybe you just don't like the motif that runs through the symphony.  It is definitely a forgettable lesser symphony of his, but it really is no more bombastic or repetitive as any of his other symphonies.  That is just not it.  It is maybe just not as inspired or as emotionally deep.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 01, 2021, 05:59:19 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 01, 2021, 05:47:59 AM
Well the entire second movement and frequent passages in the finale are quiet and introspective so I'm not getting this.  Maybe you just don't like the motif that runs through the symphony.  It is definitely a forgettable lesser symphony of his, but it really is no more bombastic or repetitive as any of his other symphonies.  That is just not it.  It is maybe just not as inspired or as emotionally deep.

Simple.  Quiet doesn't mean deep.  I love the motif that runs through the symphony and that doesn't mean an audience wants to hear it over and over.  In contrast, Symphony No. 15 is incredibly rich with ideas and allusions that link together but doesn't offer it's secrets easily.  12 is probably his most bombastic symphony so don't agree with you that it is "no more bombastic or repetitive as any of his other symphonies"?   I definitely agree with you that it is not as inspired or emotionally deep.  This is Dmitri at his most overtly populist and that's the least interesting version of him.  Doesn't mean it isn't fun, it just doesn't reward repeated effort.   It has earned its reputation.  Also keep in mind we are talking about one of the great symphonists of all time so a lesser symphony from him is better than most others best.  But I'm repeating myself and you are free to disagree. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 01, 2021, 11:39:14 AM
No.12 is not one of the greatest but I still enjoy it and like its use as accompanying music to later versions of Eisenstein's 'October'.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on March 01, 2021, 11:43:46 AM
When I was listening to a lot of Shostakovich, I never could quite get into the 12th. It felt like bombast for its own sake --- basically an empty shell of a symphony. It simply wasn't for me. Now that I'm thinking about this, I'm still the most impressed with the 4th through the 10th, 13th and 15th. When I do listen to Shostakovich nowadays, I seem to reach for the concerti, Preludes & Fugues, the song cycles or the chamber works (esp. the SQs).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Leo K. on March 01, 2021, 01:20:25 PM
I totally understand how the 12th could be foreseen this way - Shostakovich makes "bombast" orchestrally exciting and another interesting facet of his style and autobiography. Maybe not as memorable but I love the thematic material here.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: milk on March 16, 2021, 12:39:47 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71vaaPdH0zL._SS500_.jpg) I think this is a very unique and interesting recording I just discovered. Do you know this one? Mustonen plays a program of Bach's and Shostakovich's respective preludes and fugues. He intersperses the sets. I wonder if he did these live as well. He takes the tack of playing Bach more like Shostakovich rather than vice versa and it pretty much works. The way he plays Bach here ordinarily would annoy me. This much pianism in the hands of another could very well come across as tacky and crass. But somehow it works, by juxtaposition and even in the manner of a Feinberg if I can make such a lofty comparison. He's dynamically jagged, which could get on one's nerves in the Bach if he didn't switch over to Shostakovich. But his imagination shines through in both, by way of creative and energetic articulation, and makes this a winning effort.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2021, 03:31:51 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 01, 2021, 11:43:46 AM
When I was listening to a lot of Shostakovich, I never could quite get into the 12th. It felt like bombast for its own sake --- basically an empty shell of a symphony. It simply wasn't for me. Now that I'm thinking about this, I'm still the most impressed with the 4th through the 10th, 13th and 15th. When I do listen to Shostakovich nowadays, I seem to reach for the concerti, Preludes & Fugues, the song cycles or the chamber works (esp. the SQs).
I've been listening to Ormandy's recording of No.4 which I still consider one of the best. Previn's is another favourite - interesting that they are both American conductors.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 16, 2021, 06:06:38 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 16, 2021, 03:31:51 AM
I've been listening to Ormandy's recording of No.4 which I still consider one of the best. Previn's is another favourite - interesting that they are both American conductors.

Ormandy is from Hungary and Previn was born in Berlin, Germany.  Just teasing you though since they are also vintage American like those other Americans, Sergei Rachmaninoff, Igor Stravinsky, Ernst Bloch, Arnold Schoenberg, Max Steiner, Erich Korngold, etc...  :laugh: :P :laugh:
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on March 16, 2021, 08:05:05 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 16, 2021, 03:31:51 AM
I've been listening to Ormandy's recording of No.4 which I still consider one of the best.

The Ormandy recording was my introduction to the symphony, and yeah the recording is first rate. 

For American conductors on DSCH I like the efforts of Leonard Bernstein/NYPO and not as well known Andrew Litton/DSO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jo498 on March 16, 2021, 08:28:54 AM
Quote from: milk on March 16, 2021, 12:39:47 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71vaaPdH0zL._SS500_.jpg) I think this is a very unique and interesting recording I just discovered. Do you know this one? Mustonen plays a program of Bach's and Shostakovich's respective preludes and fugues. He intersperses the sets. I wonder if he did these live as well. He takes the tack of playing Bach more like Shostakovich rather than vice versa and it pretty much works. The way he plays Bach here ordinarily would annoy me. This much pianism in the hands of another could very well come across as tacky and crass. But somehow it works, by juxtaposition and even in the manner of a Feinberg if I can make such a lofty comparison. He's dynamically jagged, which could get on one's nerves in the Bach if he didn't switch over to Shostakovich. But his imagination shines through in both, by way of creative and energetic articulation, and makes this a winning effort.
Yes. I have this one and also the first volume (still on RCA). I agree that  Mustonen is unique and interesting but as you note also somewhat provocative and can get on one's nerves. I'd have to revisit these recordings but overall I thought them among his more convincing recordings (IMO his Beethoven is even more provocative and my favorite discs of his are probably the Hindemith/Prokofiev and Mussorgsky's "Pictures" + fillers). Even though the DSCH parts might be "better" (there is also not quite such an overwhelming competition as for the WTC) the juxtaposition is also interesting. (There is a live recording by Joao Carlos Martins and another Latin american pianist alternating Preludes from WTC I and Chopin which is even more of a curiosity but also interesting.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 16, 2021, 09:32:19 AM
Quote from: milk on March 16, 2021, 12:39:47 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71vaaPdH0zL._SS500_.jpg) I think this is a very unique and interesting recording I just discovered. Do you know this one? Mustonen plays a program of Bach's and Shostakovich's respective preludes and fugues. He intersperses the sets. I wonder if he did these live as well. He takes the tack of playing Bach more like Shostakovich rather than vice versa and it pretty much works. The way he plays Bach here ordinarily would annoy me. This much pianism in the hands of another could very well come across as tacky and crass. But somehow it works, by juxtaposition and even in the manner of a Feinberg if I can make such a lofty comparison. He's dynamically jagged, which could get on one's nerves in the Bach if he didn't switch over to Shostakovich. But his imagination shines through in both, by way of creative and energetic articulation, and makes this a winning effort.

I enjoy these.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 16, 2021, 09:52:00 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 16, 2021, 08:05:05 AM
The Ormandy recording was my introduction to the symphony, and yeah the recording is first rate. 

For American conductors on DSCH I like the efforts of Leonard Bernstein/NYPO and not as well known Andrew Litton/DSO.

Lenny never did the Fourth did he? I agree that Lenny/NYPhil is pretty solid Shostakovich, with my own cautionary proviso that I have yet to listen to his NYPhil Leningrad, with the cut(s)

I think very highly of Maxim Shostakovich's Fourth, too. I need to revisit the Caetani Fourth.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 16, 2021, 10:10:45 AM
My first introduction to the 4th symphony (along with the 10th) was with Ormandy/Philadelphia.  I took to the 10th immediately, but it took several years to finally appreciate and enjoy the 4th.  I really enjoy the Barshai and Petrenko readings of this symphony.

And, this one, which I realize is a sleeper choice (and albeit I am a bit biased) on this one, as Daniel Raiskin is the Music Director of my Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra.  However, this has received generally positive reviews and I would not hesitate for one second in recommending this recording.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Q0mmpdYeL._SL1261_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 16, 2021, 10:28:12 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 16, 2021, 10:10:45 AM
My first introduction to the 4th symphony (along with the 10th) was with Ormandy/Philadelphia.  I took to the 10th immediately, but it took several years to finally appreciate and enjoy the 4th.  I really enjoy the Barshai and Petrenko readings of this symphony.

And, this one, which I realize is a sleeper choice (and albeit I am a bit biased) on this one, as Daniel Raiskin is the Music Director of my Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra.  However, this has received generally positive reviews and I would not hesitate for one second in recommending this recording.  This image doesn't show it, but it is on the SWR2 label.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IhtHPVfBagM/UmPProXAEYI/AAAAAAAAAIQ/NdftIEXo_RU/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/front_%25E5%2589%25AF%25E6%259C%25AC.jpg)

Très intéressant!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on March 16, 2021, 11:40:46 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 16, 2021, 09:52:00 AM
Lenny never did the Fourth did he? I agree that Lenny/NYPhil is pretty solid Shostakovich, with my own cautionary proviso that I have yet to listen to his NYPhil Leningrad, with the cut(s)

I think very highly of Maxim Shostakovich's Fourth, too. I need to revisit the Caetani Fourth.

Oh I'm not talking about the fourth in particular anymore.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 16, 2021, 12:19:01 PM
Quote from: DavidW on March 16, 2021, 11:40:46 AM
Oh I'm not talking about the fourth in particular anymore.

Gotcha. I don't mean "gotcha!" I mean, I got you.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2021, 01:28:37 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 16, 2021, 06:06:38 AM
Ormandy is from Hungary and Previn was born in Berlin, Germany.  Just teasing you though since they are also vintage American like those other Americans, Sergei Rachmaninoff, Igor Stravinsky, Ernst Bloch, Arnold Schoenberg, Max Steiner, Erich Korngold, etc...  :laugh: :P :laugh:
Good point!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2021, 01:31:09 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 16, 2021, 09:52:00 AM
Lenny never did the Fourth did he? I agree that Lenny/NYPhil is pretty solid Shostakovich, with my own cautionary proviso that I have yet to listen to his NYPhil Leningrad, with the cut(s)

I think very highly of Maxim Shostakovich's Fourth, too. I need to revisit the Caetani Fourth.
Oh, I have Maxim's box set so I must look out No.4.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2021, 01:31:56 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 16, 2021, 10:10:45 AM
My first introduction to the 4th symphony (along with the 10th) was with Ormandy/Philadelphia.  I took to the 10th immediately, but it took several years to finally appreciate and enjoy the 4th.  I really enjoy the Barshai and Petrenko readings of this symphony.

And, this one, which I realize is a sleeper choice (and albeit I am a bit biased) on this one, as Daniel Raiskin is the Music Director of my Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra.  However, this has received generally positive reviews and I would not hesitate for one second in recommending this recording.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Q0mmpdYeL._SL1261_.jpg)
+1 - that is one of the best modern performances IMO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 17, 2021, 01:50:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 16, 2021, 01:31:56 PM
+1 - that is one of the best modern performances IMO.
++1 - really very fine indeed.  At one point it was available as a really cheap Amazon download
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 17, 2021, 03:39:12 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 17, 2021, 01:50:00 AM
++1 - really very fine indeed.  At one point it was available as a really cheap Amazon download

Well, I am quite happy to know that at least a couple of people know of and enjoy the Raiskin recording.  :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Leo K. on March 26, 2021, 01:35:19 PM
I am really enjoying Stokowski's Shosty Symphony No. 6th. It is amazing and really making Shosty click for me.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on March 26, 2021, 02:28:16 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 16, 2021, 10:10:45 AM
My first introduction to the 4th symphony (along with the 10th) was with Ormandy/Philadelphia.  I took to the 10th immediately, but it took several years to finally appreciate and enjoy the 4th.  I really enjoy the Barshai and Petrenko readings of this symphony.

And, this one, which I realize is a sleeper choice (and albeit I am a bit biased) on this one, as Daniel Raiskin is the Music Director of my Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra.  However, this has received generally positive reviews and I would not hesitate for one second in recommending this recording.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Q0mmpdYeL._SL1261_.jpg)

Thanks! IIRC, the composer thought that the 4th might be the greatest of his symphonies -- which is saying something. I got to know it later, well after many of the others, and it is formidable. Current favorite is Haitink/Chicago, but always eager to hear a new one.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 26, 2021, 03:31:14 PM
Quote from: ultralinear on March 26, 2021, 03:29:07 PM
There are so many good modern recordings, and that is certainly one of them.

My current favourite - which I'm listening to right now - is Inbal conducting the Tokyo Metropolitan SO:

(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/coverart/CDart4360.jpg)

Which has amazing vigour, even beyond his earlier (also excellent) Vienna recording:

(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/coverart/CDart1216.jpg)

Though you do have to ignore the occasional intrusive vocalisations.  :-\ ::)

How do you like his recent 11?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2021, 09:00:50 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on March 26, 2021, 01:35:19 PM
I am really enjoying Stokowski's Shosty Symphony No. 6th. It is amazing and really making Shosty click for me.

Excellent!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: André on March 27, 2021, 12:47:58 PM
It may have been posted before, so sorry if it's the case... :). There's a fascinating interview by conductor Kurt Sanderling on Shostakovich, man and composer - as well as on Mrawinsky, Kondrashin...


https://www.siue.edu/~aho/musov/sanderling/sandint.html (https://www.siue.edu/~aho/musov/sanderling/sandint.html)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 27, 2021, 12:49:59 PM
Quote from: André on March 27, 2021, 12:47:58 PM
It may have been posted before, so sorry if it's the case... :) . There's a fascinating interview by conductor Kurt Sanderling on Shostakovich, man and composer - as well as on Mrawinsky, Kondrashin...


https://www.siue.edu/~aho/musov/sanderling/sandint.html (https://www.siue.edu/~aho/musov/sanderling/sandint.html)

Thanks, mon vieux, I haven't seen that before.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 27, 2021, 04:10:04 PM
Quote from: André on March 27, 2021, 12:47:58 PM
It may have been posted before, so sorry if it's the case... :). There's a fascinating interview by conductor Kurt Sanderling on Shostakovich, man and composer - as well as on Mrawinsky, Kondrashin...


https://www.siue.edu/~aho/musov/sanderling/sandint.html (https://www.siue.edu/~aho/musov/sanderling/sandint.html)

I really think this sums it up.  "Shostakovich would have loved to be the 'Soviet Mussorgsky'. And so he has shown himself as a teller of history in, for example, the Eleventh and Twelfth symphonies. Also, in the Fifth Symphony, with the so called 'triumph' at the end - we understood what he was saying. And it was not the 'triumph' of the mighty, those in power. There was no need for further explanation."
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on April 13, 2021, 06:26:25 AM
Listening to this great performance of Symphony No. 1 in F minor, Op. 10

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ej1QOegCL._SX425_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on April 13, 2021, 06:54:24 AM
Now onto the dark Symphony No. 13 in B flat minor, Op. 113 "Babi Yar"

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ej1QOegCL._SX425_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on April 13, 2021, 07:32:19 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on April 13, 2021, 07:21:20 AM
Oh yes - I played that the other day along with about a dozen others, and thought it terrific. :)

That is a lot of Shostakovich 1!  :)

Do you have some favourites?  In your mind, which performance has the most alarming, prominent fortissimo timpani passage in that final movement?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 13, 2021, 09:03:55 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on April 13, 2021, 08:45:50 AM
Until recently I would immediately have said Kondrashin/Moscow - having always been a bit of a Kondrashin fan :D - and I still like that a lot - but I really was very struck by how good that Barshai is.  Maybe because that set seems to have been around forever, it is easy to overlook - but I thought it pretty much faultless, and not at all mannered.  It probably helps that it's also one of the quickest. :-\

It's easier to say which is the most disappointing - and sadly, it's my most recent purchase  :'( :
(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/coverart/CDart4797.jpg)
Heavy-footed and frequently dragging, it seems a lot slower than it actually is, and does the music no favours.

If I could only have one recording, nowadays - and not for the first time - it would have to be Sladkovsky/Tatarstan:
(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/coverart/CDart4580.jpg)
This set has upended a number of my previously-held opinions and preferences when it comes to Shostakovich performance, and is quite superb.  I am lost in admiration for it.

However, for sheer bonkers timpani-bashing, nothing I know beats Rozhdestvensky/USSR Ministry of Culture:
(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/coverart/CDart254.jpg)
Or even comes close.  I have a later (live) recording of him conducting the Dresden Staatskapelle - very slowly ??? - and the the timps there are much more reasonable. :(

I like the description of bonkers timpani-bashing!  Do you know the live Rohzdestvensky from this set;

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJAL6BMpNhCJ6FfhSoPPc48Vb7IZQWfJo2sw&usqp=CAU)

Off-hand (and I don't have it to hand) I can't remember the timpani status in No.1!  The performance there I DO remember is the Scherzo in No.10 when it sounds like the side-drummer falls through his drum - hilarious chaos ensues
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on April 13, 2021, 09:18:06 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on April 13, 2021, 08:45:50 AM
Until recently I would immediately have said Kondrashin/Moscow - having always been a bit of a Kondrashin fan :D - and I still like that a lot - but I really was very struck by how good that Barshai is.  Maybe because that set seems to have been around forever, it is easy to overlook - but I thought it pretty much faultless, and not at all mannered.  It probably helps that it's also one of the quickest. :-\

It's easier to say which is the most disappointing - and sadly, it's my most recent purchase  :'( :
(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/coverart/CDart4797.jpg)
Heavy-footed and frequently dragging, it seems a lot slower than it actually is, and does the music no favours.

If I could only have one recording, nowadays - and not for the first time - it would have to be Sladkovsky/Tatarstan:
(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/coverart/CDart4580.jpg)
This set has upended a number of my previously-held opinions and preferences when it comes to Shostakovich performance, and is quite superb.  I am lost in admiration for it.

However, for sheer bonkers timpani-bashing, nothing I know beats Rozhdestvensky/USSR Ministry of Culture:
(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/coverart/CDart254.jpg)
Or even comes close.  I have a later (live) recording of him conducting the Dresden Staatskapelle - very slowly ??? - and the the timps there are much more reasonable. :(

Thanks for that thoughtful and thorough review, Ultra!  :)  I will have to check out the Roz 1st at some point.  :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 13, 2021, 02:12:34 PM
Quote from: ultralinear on April 13, 2021, 09:31:57 AM
Bloody hell.

I had completely forgotten that I have - not that set - but this one:
(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/coverart/CDart4804.jpg)
Which includes live recordings of 1, 4, 7, 9, 10.

I must have listened to these at some point (surely?) but retain no memory, and never ripped them to the library either.  What an idiot (smacks head.)

Well that's my evening sorted then. ::) ;D

Yes its the 10 disc set I have too.  Just listening to the the finale of DSCH 1 as I write this.  Fraught is the word that springs to mind - this sort of performance brings to mind that sporting cliche - "leaving everything out on the pitch".  Absolutely no prisoners and yes those timps are most certainly thwacked.  Perhaps it was because I grew up on those old Melodiya recordings and I remember seeing the Soviet orchestras when they toured to the UK but this IS the sound I have in my inner ear as being 'right' for this sort of music.  The thing is behind the crudity of some the actual sound these performances are really well paced and genuinely thrilling.  I can imagine being at the actual concerts was extraordinarily cathartic.

Just listened to the No.10 Scherzo to remind myself of the chaos, the sidedrummer misses his first big entry (its the Siberian Symphony Orchestra for him) and then drops his sticks right at the end of the movement but God its exciting!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: JBS on April 13, 2021, 05:58:22 PM
Quote from: ultralinear on April 13, 2021, 09:31:57 AM
Bloody hell.

I had completely forgotten that I have - not that set - but this one:
(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/coverart/CDart4804.jpg)
Which includes live recordings of 1, 4, 7, 9, 10.

I must have listened to these at some point (surely?) but retain no memory, and never ripped them to the library either.  What an idiot (smacks head.)

Well that's my evening sorted then. ::) ;D

I have that set as well. I remember the sonics to be extremely variable and that the non-Shostakovich recordings were more interesting. (In fact they made the set worth getting no matter what your opinion of the Shostakivich performances might be.)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 14, 2021, 04:14:36 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on April 14, 2021, 04:05:25 AM
That side-drummer is delightful.  What a life-enhancing moment that must have been for everyone present. ;D

One time I saw Jansons conduct the Bavarian RSO (in Mahler, I think) - and he was just raising the baton to start, when one of the percussionists signalled frantically to him and then ran off the platform (none too quietly) - leaving Jansons standing there with his arms folded, and everyone else talking quietly - to reappear a couple of minutes later, breathlessly holding aloft the triangle he had forgotten.  He got an especially enthusiastic cheer, both then and at the end.

God how I miss going to concerts. :(

I am in two minds about that live 1st.  The unbalanced sound gives prominence to the upper strings and woodwind, with everyone else (especially the piano) recessed to varying degrees and creating a shrill effect overall.  Together with sometimes rather hectic activity, it does play into the hands of those who would dismiss this as circus music.

OTOH that very abrasiveness - together with the echt Soviet brass sound - does give this recording an authenticity which more polished productions can dilute.  And there is some impressive wristwork on the tympani. ;)

Sadly my CD of the 4th had a deep scratch across it which took most of the evening to polish out until I got a decent transfer (AutoGlym saves the day again) so I haven't had a chance to hear it yet.  It has stiff competition from 3 other Rozhdestvensky recordings, all of them terrific - particularly this live one with the Philharmonia:
(http://www.exactlabels.com/ap11498816/coverart/CDart1204.jpg)
Despite the audience of emphysema patients. ::) ;D

+1 for everything you say.  I must admit I love the wildness of the performance - something that lives in the moment of its creation and is not trying to be a "library version" by anyone.  Sometimes things just have to be allowed to live in that instant.  Of course, the paradox is that we are discussing a recording of that instant but I think it changes the mindset of the performers.  The thing I always used to find fascinating about the old Soviet orchestras toruing the UK was they always looked so miserable and immobile taking the applause.  BUT, once the playing started they were electric!  I also liked the way with Rozhdestvensky how he was so minimalist on the podium with the tiniest gesture producing an explosion from the orchestra.......
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on April 14, 2021, 04:55:23 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 13, 2021, 09:03:55 AM
I like the description of bonkers timpani-bashing!  Do you know the live Rohzdestvensky from this set;

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJAL6BMpNhCJ6FfhSoPPc48Vb7IZQWfJo2sw&usqp=CAU)

Off-hand (and I don't have it to hand) I can't remember the timpani status in No.1!  The performance there I DO remember is the Scherzo in No.10 when it sounds like the side-drummer falls through his drum - hilarious chaos ensues
I need to get that performance of Symphony 10!
I wonder it is as much fun as the 'Dr Phibes' organ solo in Rozhdestvensky's recording of Vaughan Williams's 'Sinfonia Antartica'.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on April 15, 2021, 02:25:01 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 14, 2021, 04:14:36 AM
... I also liked the way with Rozhdestvensky how he was so minimalist on the podium with the tiniest gesture producing an explosion from the orchestra.......

Strangely, my abiding memory of Rozhdestvensky (I saw him conducting the Leningrad PO in the RAH - a prom concert) was a burst of exhibitionism as he milked the applause after a Tchaikovsky symphony - he bounded up onto the podium with chest puffed and arms outstretched, to cheers and stamping applause (well it was a prom).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Cato on April 15, 2021, 03:49:58 AM
An essay by Kenneth Lafave in The Epoch Times about the Fifth Symphony:


QuoteOn Jan. 28, 1936, Soviet composer Dmitri Shostakovich picked up a copy of the newspaper Pravda and found that he had been labeled anathema to the USSR.

Shostakovich's 1934 opera, "Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District," was "cacophonous" and "an insult to Soviet women," Pravda claimed. His ballet of the same year, "The Limpid Stream," was "infected with cynicism." If Comrade Shostakovich did not change his ways, the article concluded, "things could end badly."

Shostakovich had been handed a public threat at the direction of Joseph Stalin. His capital crime: "formalism." Of course, no one knew what constituted "formalism" anymore than anyone knew what made someone a "right-winger." All that was known for certain was that a formalist was an artist disliked by Stalin, just as a right-winger was anybody Stalin wanted dead.

What followed constitutes one of the greatest controversies in the history of Western music. Shostakovich either acquiesced to Stalin's demands, or he pulled off an artistic sleight of hand unparalleled in history.

The piece Shostakovich had originally planned as his next opus was a mammoth, complex sonic structure he called Symphony No. 4, a score that consciously turned away from socialist realism, the officially optimistic, quasi-heroic aesthetic of Stalin's USSR.

The music of socialist realism was expected to be squarely optimistic for the future of the State, eschewing "negative" elements from the bourgeois past. By contrast, Shostakovich's Symphony No. 4 was tumultuous, mercurial, and sardonic. After the Pravda article, Shostakovich thought it best to withdraw the work.

Rather than invite further attacks, he came up with a cunning way to deal with his demagogic critics. He would compose a symphony that had all the elements of socialist realism, thus avoiding the gulag. But such general terms as "optimism" and "heroism," mainstays of the socialist realist aesthetic, were open to interpretation. In a musical work lacking words or visuals, the identity of a hero was not a given, and "optimism" has many shades of meaning.

Shostakovich would write a symphony seemingly aligned with socialist realism, but in actuality critical of it and of the Soviet Union itself. A tall order, but one within the capabilities of a young genius whose first symphony had put him on the musical map at age 19.

This, at least, was what Shostakovich accomplished according to many observers. But to mainstream Marxists, the work Shostakovich produced after his dressing-down from Pravda really was what it claimed to be on the official subtitle of the printed score: "A Soviet artist's response to just criticism."


The work at controversy is Shostakovich's Symphony No. 5 in D minor, Op. 47. Listen and decide for yourself. The first movement opens Moderato with menacing, dotted-rhythm gestures in the strings countered by a plaintive theme from the first violins. The stage is set for a great struggle, which culminates in an Allegro non troppo dominated by aggressive writing and, ultimately, a sense of defeat.

The second movement is a scherzo of unbridled physical exuberance. It is the only truly "heroic" music of the piece, and yet ... Are the scherzo's militaristic rhythms and brass salvos truly heroic, or are they merely the strident exterior of heroism, a brilliant but vapid show of force?

And then, the emotional core of the symphony: a Largo of such deeply felt tragedy that members of the audience at the premiere in Leningrad, on Nov. 21, 1937, wept in open defiance of the Soviet edict that condemned tragedy as counterrevolutionary.

In his book "The New Shostakovich," Ian McDonald writes: "The commonest reaction the Fifth seems to have called from contemporary Russian listeners was simple relief at hearing tragic emotion expressed during a time when genuine feeling was being systematically destroyed by the Terror." Shostakovich composed the movement in the weeks following the execution of one of his teachers.

The finale, averred by Shostakovich in official statements attributed to him to represent the triumph of the optimistic socialist State over the Largo's inexorable tragedy, was, ironically, precisely that. Only, consider: What has triumphed? The imposition of an impersonal ethos over the inner lives of individuals. Authentic feeling has been replaced by robotic "happiness."

As the Shostakovich of author Solomon Volkov's "Testimony," published after the composer's death, said of it: "The rejoicing is forced, created under threat. ... It's as if someone were beating you with a stick saying, 'Your business is rejoicing, your business is rejoicing.'"

The official Soviet culture machine heard what it wanted to hear and proclaimed the symphony a masterpiece of socialist realism. Strangely, we can agree. For anyone with ears to hear, Shostakovich's Symphony No. 5 expresses life under Stalin with hair-raising accuracy.

Former music critic for the Arizona Republic and The Kansas City Star, Kenneth LaFave recently earned a doctorate in philosophy, art, and critical thought from the European Graduate School. He is the author of three books, including "Experiencing Film Music" (2017, Rowman & Littlefield).

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Cato on April 15, 2021, 04:45:20 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on April 15, 2021, 04:22:20 AM
One of the joys of that symphony is the room it leaves for interpretation.  One I recall particularly was Tugan Sokhiev conducting (I think) the Philharmonia in just about the most sarcastic Finale imaginable, would have come as a shock to anyone expecting something celebratory.

Very interesting!  The performance is available only to subscribers: ($12.99 a month) on Medici.tv.

https://www.medici.tv/en/concerts/tugan-sokhiev-conducts-chen-and-shostakovich-edgar-moreau/?preview=199941?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=teaser&utm_campaign=20181127_edgarmoreau (https://www.medici.tv/en/concerts/tugan-sokhiev-conducts-chen-and-shostakovich-edgar-moreau/?preview=199941?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=teaser&utm_campaign=20181127_edgarmoreau)

Excerpts are available on YouTube.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on April 15, 2021, 06:10:46 AM
Quote from: Cato on April 15, 2021, 04:45:20 AM
Very interesting!  The performance is available only to subscribers: ($12.99 a month) on Medici.tv.

https://www.medici.tv/en/concerts/tugan-sokhiev-conducts-chen-and-shostakovich-edgar-moreau/?preview=199941?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=teaser&utm_campaign=20181127_edgarmoreau (https://www.medici.tv/en/concerts/tugan-sokhiev-conducts-chen-and-shostakovich-edgar-moreau/?preview=199941?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=teaser&utm_campaign=20181127_edgarmoreau)

Excerpts are available on YouTube.

I was a subscriber of Medici for about a year.  A fairly decent site for viewing concert performances and several documentaries.  Unfortunately, one drawback I found is that several of their videos did not have the translation or subtitles for English.  :-\
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Cato on April 15, 2021, 03:00:03 PM
Courtesy of a FaceBook comment:


(https://scontent.fcmh1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/172233694_2885472105031730_3932972972475374587_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=6-iS-dPXtuoAX_rjp98&_nc_ht=scontent.fcmh1-1.fna&oh=4901f4966d161fd8f7e25a445f3c252b&oe=609DB6A3)

Van Cliburn meeting Shostakovich: probably during the time of the former's award-winning performance at the Tchaikovsky Competition.


Can you believe it?  Van Cliburn was given a New-York-City Ticker-Tape Parade!  Of course, The Cold War was the common denominator of many such things!  Today, would such a parade take place? ;) ;)

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Leo K. on April 20, 2021, 07:00:59 AM
Shosty's song cycles with orchestra are really getting to me. They are AMAZING. This is the set I'm listening to:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk0NDA0Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NzExMzU5MjZ9)

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on April 20, 2021, 07:44:46 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on April 20, 2021, 07:00:59 AM
Shosty's song cycles with orchestra are really getting to me. They are AMAZING. This is the set I'm listening to:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk0NDA0Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NzExMzU5MjZ9)

Yes, I recall enjoying them, too. I have these two recordings, which I believe are in that box set:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA3NzI0OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NDMxODA2NjB9)(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA3NzI1NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NDMxODYyMDF9)

There's also some of them in the Rozhdestvensky set I own of the symphonies on Melodiya.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on April 20, 2021, 10:42:05 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on April 20, 2021, 07:00:59 AM
Shosty's song cycles with orchestra are really getting to me. They are AMAZING. This is the set I'm listening to:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk0NDA0Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NzExMzU5MjZ9)



Very nice!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on April 21, 2021, 02:21:32 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 20, 2021, 07:44:46 AM
Yes, I recall enjoying them, too. I have these two recordings, which I believe are in that box set:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA3NzI0OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NDMxODA2NjB9)(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA3NzI1NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NDMxODYyMDF9)

There's also some of them in the Rozhdestvensky set I own of the symphonies on Melodiya.

I have the same 2 albums, various reviews pointed to them as the best choice and there's definitely some excellent singing.

Of course, it's worth noting that many (but not all) of the 'orchestral' song cycles were originally conceived for piano. For some the piano and orchestral versions were more or less simultaneous.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on April 21, 2021, 06:23:55 AM
Quote from: Madiel on April 21, 2021, 02:21:32 AM
I have the same 2 albums, various reviews pointed to them as the best choice and there's definitely some excellent singing.

Of course, it's worth noting that many (but not all) of the 'orchestral' song cycles were originally conceived for piano. For some the piano and orchestral versions were more or less simultaneous.

Yeah, I haven't ventured into Shostakovich's songs for voice and piano yet. I should rectify this at some point.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 22, 2021, 08:52:06 AM
Partly prompted by the talk about Rozhdestvensky's live performances I revisited some of his USSR Ministry of Culture SO performances as released on the late-lamented Olympia

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91uBPMs60bL._AC_SX355_.jpg)

He makes a very powerful case for the Leningrad - all snarling Soviet brass and jackbooted snare-drums.  Subtle it ain't but then neither is the work.  This is a symphony as agit-prop and as such it succeeds gloriously
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Alek Hidell on April 22, 2021, 06:30:49 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on September 25, 2020, 11:15:13 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/5CFd-8A4bZ95iueBelJVlCCOE8o=/fit-in/600x606/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7044198-1432422166-3236.jpeg.jpg)

not the best version in existence, especially the 2nd movement, but has a fast tempo that makes it different - if perhaps inappropriate ...

This was a few months ago, but I was catching up in this thread and noticed it. Interesting (and prominent) typo there: the Fifth is not Shostakovich's Op.41. It's Op.47 ...

Anyway, listening to the 8th from this:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71kny22SSXL._SL1400_.jpg)

I've had my eye on this (ongoing?) cycle and thought I should sample it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on April 22, 2021, 07:15:16 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 22, 2021, 08:52:06 AM
Partly prompted by the talk about Rozhdestvensky's live performances I revisited some of his USSR Ministry of Culture SO performances as released on the late-lamented Olympia

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91uBPMs60bL._AC_SX355_.jpg)

He makes a very powerful case for the Leningrad - all snarling Soviet brass and jackbooted snare-drums.  Subtle it ain't but then neither is the work.  This is a symphony as agit-prop and as such it succeeds gloriously

I think Rozhdestvensky does a fine job in the Leningrad. It's a difficult symphony to bring off because of that first movement 'bolero'. To keep that thing going without losing the interest of the listener is something that many can't quite achieve, but I think Rozhdestvensky is successful. Another favorite 7th is Bernstein's with the CSO on DG. He gives this work some serious gravitas and I don't think I've heard a better Adagio. I used to not be much of a fan of this work until I heard several different interpretations of it and I have to say that Bernstein and Rozhdestvensky certainly helped me in understanding it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on April 23, 2021, 06:33:51 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 22, 2021, 07:15:16 PM
I think Rozhdestvensky does a fine job in the Leningrad. It's a difficult symphony to bring off because of that first movement 'bolero'. To keep that thing going without losing the interest of the listener is something that many can't quite achieve, but I think Rozhdestvensky is successful. Another favorite 7th is Bernstein's with the CSO on DG. He gives this work some serious gravitas and I don't think I've heard a better Adagio. I used to not be much of a fan of this work until I heard several different interpretations of it and I have to say that Bernstein and Rozhdestvensky certainly helped me in understanding it.

In Mravinsky's recording "Bolero" is a dance of death.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 23, 2021, 08:07:18 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 22, 2021, 07:15:16 PM
I think Rozhdestvensky does a fine job in the Leningrad. It's a difficult symphony to bring off because of that first movement 'bolero'. To keep that thing going without losing the interest of the listener is something that many can't quite achieve, but I think Rozhdestvensky is successful. Another favorite 7th is Bernstein's with the CSO on DG. He gives this work some serious gravitas and I don't think I've heard a better Adagio. I used to not be much of a fan of this work until I heard several different interpretations of it and I have to say that Bernstein and Rozhdestvensky certainly helped me in understanding it.

+1 for the Bernstein/CSO recording.  In the main I am not a fan of Late Lennie's ponderous preferences.  But in this instance it really does serve his implaccable vision of the music and of course the Chicago players have the chops to sustain the musical tension he creates.  It makes me wish he'd turned his hand to some more of the overtly 'epic' DSCH scores
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on April 23, 2021, 04:05:43 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 23, 2021, 08:07:18 AM
+1 for the Bernstein/CSO recording.  In the main I am not a fan of Late Lennie's ponderous preferences.  But in this instance it really does serve his implaccable vision of the music and of course the Chicago players have the chops to sustain the musical tension he creates.  It makes me wish he'd turned his hand to some more of the overtly 'epic' DSCH scores

Just imagine a late DG Lennie No. 8, 10, or 11 with NYP, RCO or something.  How glorious would that have been?  If he did 11, it would probably be 80 minutes long with a 20+ minute opening and he would have blasted us all in the Allegro and it would have felt justified with its extreme volume and duration.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on April 23, 2021, 07:22:42 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 23, 2021, 08:07:18 AM
+1 for the Bernstein/CSO recording.  In the main I am not a fan of Late Lennie's ponderous preferences.  But in this instance it really does serve his implaccable vision of the music and of course the Chicago players have the chops to sustain the musical tension he creates.  It makes me wish he'd turned his hand to some more of the overtly 'epic' DSCH scores

Outside of the symphonies, I always kind of wish Bernstein conducted the Violin Concerto No. 1 as I would think he would work wonders in the Passacaglia (still, for me, one of Shostakovich's most heart-breaking musical utterances). Of course, he'd need a violinist who would be in-tune with his own vision of the work and Screechy Stern isn't one of them! :P
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on April 23, 2021, 11:17:38 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 23, 2021, 07:22:42 PM
Outside of the symphonies, I always kind of wish Bernstein conducted the Violin Concerto No. 1 as I would think he would work wonders in the Passacaglia (still, for me, one of Shostakovich's most heart-breaking musical utterances). Of course, he'd need a violinist who would be in-tune with his own vision of the work and Screechy Stern isn't one of them! :P
Yes, that would have been great. The Passacaglia is one of my favourite DSCH moments too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on April 24, 2021, 07:18:28 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 23, 2021, 11:17:38 PM
Yes, that would have been great. The Passacaglia is one of my favourite DSCH moments too.

Yes, these moments that happen with this kind 'mask off' heart-on-sleeve emotionalism is why I think Shostakovich resonates with me so strongly, because it reveals that the man wasn't merely grotesque marches, comical satire, and zany musical rhetoric, but there was a beating heart behind all of it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on April 25, 2021, 06:22:32 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 24, 2021, 07:18:28 PM
Yes, these moments that happen with this kind 'mask off' heart-on-sleeve emotionalism is why I think Shostakovich resonates with me so strongly, because it reveals that the man wasn't merely grotesque marches, comical satire, and zany musical rhetoric, but there was a beating heart behind all of it.

Well put.  I would also add that the Passacaglia is a form that he really excelled at such as from Lady Macbeth, and the No. 15 last movement.  Each one is brilliant and very moving but you get a sense they are deeply personal too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2021, 06:26:36 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 25, 2021, 06:22:32 AM
Well put.  I would also add that the Passacaglia is a form that he really excelled at such as from Lady Macbeth, and the No. 15 last movement.  Each one is brilliant and very moving but you get a sense they are deeply personal too.

Ah yes, I really should revisit Lady Macbeth. It's been far too long.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on April 25, 2021, 10:06:18 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 25, 2021, 06:22:32 AM
Well put.  I would also add that the Passacaglia is a form that he really excelled at such as from Lady Macbeth, and the No. 15 last movement.  Each one is brilliant and very moving but you get a sense they are deeply personal too.

The slow movement of the Tenth Quartet is my favorite of his passcaglias.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on April 25, 2021, 03:46:36 PM
Quote from: BasilValentine on April 25, 2021, 10:06:18 AM
The slow movement of the Tenth Quartet is my favorite of his passcaglias.

I confess being less familiar with the quartets.  Any specific interpretation you suggest shall I mount a traversal?  I've heard much praise of the Borodin Quartet.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2021, 07:27:05 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 25, 2021, 03:46:36 PM
I confess being less familiar with the quartets.  Any specific interpretation you suggest shall I mount a traversal?  I've heard much praise of the Borodin Quartet.

You didn't ask me, but get the Borodin Quartet. I have both their complete cycle on Melodiya and their partial cycle on Chandos. I have been impressed with both, but definitely track down the one on Melodiya.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2021, 07:39:27 PM
Quote from: BasilValentine on April 25, 2021, 10:06:18 AM
The slow movement of the Tenth Quartet is my favorite of his passcaglias.

Are you sure there's a passacaglia in the 10th SQ? The only slow movements I see are marked Andante (first movement) and Adagio (third movement) unless, of course, there's a passacaglia contained within those slow movements.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on April 25, 2021, 09:32:24 PM
The adagio is a passacaglia.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2021, 09:34:47 PM
Quote from: Madiel on April 25, 2021, 09:32:24 PM
The adagio is a passacaglia.

Ah okay. Very good to know. 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on April 26, 2021, 04:01:10 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 25, 2021, 07:27:05 PM
You didn't ask me, but get the Borodin Quartet. I have both their complete cycle on Melodiya and their partial cycle on Chandos. I have been impressed with both, but definitely track down the one on Melodiya.

I second this recommendation. Borodin on Melodiya.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 26, 2021, 04:10:39 AM
a slightly off-topic but not wholly related question.  Why do people think that Passacaglia form seems so powerful in expressing/coveying a certain kind of implaccable fateful emotion.  The DSCH works all seems to convey a weightier meaning but then so does Britten's use of Passacaglias in Pter Grimes (and many other works).  Brahms 4's finale seems to bring his set of symphonies to a powerfully satisfying conclusion because(?) of the form.  On a lighter note - Carl Davis brilliantly orchestrated the great Bach C minor passacaglia for the film Napoleon and called it St. Just.  But this is just scratching the surface - there are so many great passacaglias!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on April 26, 2021, 04:28:51 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 26, 2021, 04:10:39 AM
a slightly off-topic but not wholly related question.  Why do people think that Passacaglia form seems so powerful in expressing/coveying a certain kind of implaccable fateful emotion.  The DSCH works all seems to convey a weightier meaning but then so does Britten's use of Passacaglias in Pter Grimes (and many other works).  Brahms 4's finale seems to bring his set of symphonies to a powerfully satisfying conclusion because(?) of the form.  On a lighter note - Carl Davis brilliantly orchestrated the great Bach C minor passacaglia for the film Napoleon and called it St. Just.  But this is just scratching the surface - there are so many great passacaglias!

Well if you want 'implacable' and 'fateful', it's a form that is essentially static. The theme continuously cycles over and over.

One that hasn't been mentioned is from the op.87 preludes and fugues. The G sharp minor prelude is a passacaglia (followed by one of the most ferocious fugues in the set).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on April 26, 2021, 04:37:40 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 25, 2021, 06:22:32 AM
Well put.  I would also add that the Passacaglia is a form that he really excelled at such as from Lady Macbeth, and the No. 15 last movement.  Each one is brilliant and very moving but you get a sense they are deeply personal too.

Quote from: BasilValentine on April 25, 2021, 10:06:18 AM
The slow movement of the Tenth Quartet is my favorite of his passcaglias.

Also Passacaglias - the 3rd (slow) movement of the 6th Quartet.  The 3rd (slow) movement of the Piano Trio No.2.
Best of all, the Prelude No.12 in G Sharp Minor from the 24 Preludes & Fugues Op87 - this one quite similar in mood to the Violin Concerto.

You have to see Oistrakh in that Passacaglia -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OTq7uhzT8w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OTq7uhzT8w)  (starts around 4:10 but stops before the cadenza) (cond: Fricke )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk786KRIkQw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk786KRIkQw)  (the cadenza)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QDfwcFxz6A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QDfwcFxz6A)  (better continuation, cadenza starts around 2:40)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on April 26, 2021, 06:06:42 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 26, 2021, 04:10:39 AM
a slightly off-topic but not wholly related question.  Why do people think that Passacaglia form seems so powerful in expressing/coveying a certain kind of implaccable fateful emotion. 

Because it is basically an orchestrated crescendo.  As the the theme repeats, more tension, accompaniment, motion, dynamics swirl around it adding a sense of inevitability and usually there is an unexpected twist near the end that provides a tremendous unexpected release of tension like in Bach C minor Passacaglia reaching C major at point of maximum tension.  Since our expectations have been set and established for so long before, this sudden unexpected shift is quite dramatic and gives composers much room for innovative craftsmanship in exactly how and why they delay that transition and what they do once it is reached. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on April 26, 2021, 07:07:38 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 25, 2021, 07:27:05 PM
You didn't ask me, but get the Borodin Quartet. I have both their complete cycle on Melodiya and their partial cycle on Chandos. I have been impressed with both, but definitely track down the one on Melodiya.

I also like the Borodin for the quartets. As others have said, the Adagio, the third movement of the Tenth Quartet, is a passacaglia.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on April 26, 2021, 08:06:33 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 26, 2021, 04:10:39 AM
a slightly off-topic but not wholly related question.  Why do people think that Passacaglia form seems so powerful in expressing/coveying a certain kind of implaccable fateful emotion. The DSCH works all seems to convey a weightier meaning but then so does Britten's use of Passacaglias in Pter Grimes (and many other works).  Brahms 4's finale seems to bring his set of symphonies to a powerfully satisfying conclusion because(?) of the form.  On a lighter note - Carl Davis brilliantly orchestrated the great Bach C minor passacaglia for the film Napoleon and called it St. Just.  But this is just scratching the surface - there are so many great passacaglias!

I suspect the long history of the form and traditions established by certain iconic works likely have something to do with it. I'd look especially at ground bass arias from the Baroque, like Purcell's "When I am laid in earth" (essentially a passacaglia) from Dido and Aeneas. Descending tetrachord bass lines as in the Purcell, along with diatonic versions, which have always been popular, have a fateful air about them because of their implacable doomed descent.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on April 27, 2021, 09:22:53 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 26, 2021, 06:06:42 AM
Because it is basically an orchestrated crescendo.  As the the theme repeats, more tension, accompaniment, motion, dynamics swirl around it adding a sense of inevitability and usually there is an unexpected twist near the end that provides a tremendous unexpected release of tension like in Bach C minor Passacaglia reaching C major at point of maximum tension.  Since our expectations have been set and established for so long before, this sudden unexpected shift is quite dramatic and gives composers much room for innovative craftsmanship in exactly how and why they delay that transition and what they do once it is reached. 

Very good.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on May 03, 2021, 05:54:45 PM
First time listening to one of my favorite Shostakovich sequences, the Allegro (2nd movement) of the Tenth Symphony, with the score. Thanks to many fine contributors on YouTube, who have synced scores with performances, you can see what the composer actually wrote, and then compare it to what you're hearing.

Anyway, here are Kirill Kondrashin and the Moscow Philharmonic. (I do like the interpretation, even if it might not be my favorite, but never mind.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxIUr-nD_vQ

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on May 04, 2021, 04:35:43 PM
So I've completed traversing the string quartets (Borodin Quartet on Melodiya).  My thoughts.  They are autobiographical.  They are best heard in order.  Like the symphonies, the order matters.  Youthful vitality, wit, playfulness, slowly gives way to sarcasm, depth, resignation.  I think if I never heard any of these I could immediately identify which was an early work and which was late period.  I think they are uniquely different from his symphonies yet consistent with his style if that makes any sense.  Two independent paths...sort of like a mountain hike and hiking through the meadows though both are an epic traversal.  I also found the works quite symphonic.  Like Rachmaninoff and Prokofiev, I just couldn't help hearing these as orchestral works transcribed for smaller ensembles.  I don't know if that reveals more about me or the composer.  So I sort of hear these as subsequent orchestral works on par with the massive symphonies.  The music felt so familiar yet I hadn't heard it before.  It was also introducing me to new friends I knew I would appreciate.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 04, 2021, 04:44:15 PM
Quote from: relm1 on May 04, 2021, 04:35:43 PM
So I've completed traversing the string quartets (Borodin Quartet on Melodiya).  My thoughts.  They are autobiographical.  They are best heard in order.  Like the symphonies, the order matters.  Youthful vitality, wit, playfulness, slowly gives way to sarcasm, depth, resignation.  I think if I never heard any of these I could immediately identify which was an early work and which was late period.  I think they are uniquely different from his symphonies yet consistent with his style if that makes any sense.  Two independent paths...sort of like a mountain hike and hiking through the meadows though both are an epic traversal.  I also found the works quite symphonic.  Like Rachmaninoff and Prokofiev, I just couldn't help hearing these as orchestral works transcribed for smaller ensembles.  I don't know if that reveals more about me or the composer.  So I sort of hear these as subsequent orchestral works on par with the massive symphonies.  The music felt so familiar yet I hadn't heard it before.  It was also introducing me to new friends I knew I would appreciate.

Glad you enjoyed them. 8) I believe these SQs to be vitally important to his oeuvre in general. I'd further this opinion in saying that if you don't like his SQs, then there's a good chance you're not really as into the composer as you thought you were.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: krummholz on May 04, 2021, 05:23:53 PM
Quote from: BasilValentine on April 25, 2021, 10:06:18 AM
The slow movement of the Tenth Quartet is my favorite of his passcaglias.

+1. With the 4th movement of the 8th Symphony as a close second.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on May 04, 2021, 10:29:25 PM
Quote from: relm1 on May 04, 2021, 04:35:43 PM
I think if I never heard any of these I could immediately identify which was an early work and which was late period.

None of them are really early. Quartet no.1 is between the 5th and 6th symphonies, and Quartet no.2 is between the 8th and 9th.

Quote from: relm1 on May 04, 2021, 04:35:43 PM
Like Rachmaninoff and Prokofiev, I just couldn't help hearing these as orchestral works transcribed for smaller ensembles.

I couldn't disagree more, but if you like that sort of thing then you can go listen to the 'Chamber Symphony' versions of many of the quartets.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 05, 2021, 01:56:13 AM
Quote from: Madiel on May 04, 2021, 10:29:25 PM
None of them are really early. Quartet no.1 is between the 5th and 6th symphonies, and Quartet no.2 is between the 8th and 9th.

I couldn't disagree more, but if you like that sort of thing then you can go listen to the 'Chamber Symphony' versions of many of the quartets.

+1 - the utter genius of these quartets is the distillation of DSCH's musical thought into simply (nothing simple really!) 4 monophonic musical lines.  The very essence of chamber music.  One of the things I admire most about DSCH is the way he evolved two quite different/parallel/'authentic' musical voices (ignoring the populist/film side for a moment) - the public/orchestral voice and the private/chamber voice.  Personally I listen very rarely indeed to the Chamber Symphonies simply because they fall between those two stools for me....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on May 05, 2021, 06:07:18 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 05, 2021, 01:56:13 AM
+1 - the utter genius of these quartets is the distillation of DSCH's musical thought into simply (nothing simple really!) 4 monophonic musical lines.  The very essence of chamber music.  One of the things I admire most about DSCH is the way he evolved two quite different/parallel/'authentic' musical voices (ignoring the populist/film side for a moment) - the public/orchestral voice and the private/chamber voice.  Personally I listen very rarely indeed to the Chamber Symphonies simply because they fall between those two stools for me....

It's frequently not 4 monophonic musical lines.  It's melodic with accompaniment.  Who is the melodic switches every few bars.  The very essence of symphonic music.  But we'll agree to disagree on this.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 05, 2021, 12:15:08 PM
Quote from: relm1 on May 05, 2021, 06:07:18 AM
It's frequently not 4 monophonic musical lines.  It's melodic with accompaniment.  Who is the melodic switches every few bars.  The very essence of symphonic music.  But we'll agree to disagree on this.

monophonic as in the sense that its 1 note at a time in 4 parts - I'm not debating priomary or secondary material.  All the double stopping in the world won't really make string instruments polyphonic (unless you're Bach!)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 05, 2021, 01:09:51 PM
four single-line instruments.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 05, 2021, 01:19:39 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 05, 2021, 01:09:51 PM
four single-line instruments.

exactly - and better put than I did!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on May 05, 2021, 04:19:27 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 05, 2021, 01:19:39 PM
exactly - and better put than I did!

I fully understand what both of you mean.  But consider my meaning more closely.  Take Shostakovich Suite for 2 pianos.  This is a symphonic work composed for two pianos.  Orchestral arrangers will hear the "single line instruments" as melodic intentions of the composer given limitations of the instrumentation.  This is not always the case with chamber music.  Mussorgsky's Picture's at an Exhibition is text book example of an orchestral work composed on the piano and it's not because of Ravel's arrangement, there are about 1,000 arrangements of it with Ravel being the most famous (and frankly most accomplished).  But perhaps I'm just crazy and as a composer and orchestrator myself, I always hear things arranged in different ways which again you need to grant me that license which I said "we need to agree to disagree" because we won't agree on this.  Here is something we can disagree on though, I belief Shostakovich is primarily an orchestral composer and hears everything as an orchestral composer would and then when necessary translates it to chamber music.  I have no proof of this, it's just how I hear it.  This is in contrast to Chopin or Liszt who I hear are chamber composers who then sometimes interpret their music for orchestras.  Scriabin is practically entirely a symphonic composer who mostly wrote for piano.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on May 05, 2021, 06:03:15 PM
Quote from: relm1 on May 05, 2021, 04:19:27 PM
I fully understand what both of you mean.  But consider my meaning more closely.  Take Shostakovich Suite for 2 pianos.  This is a symphonic work composed for two pianos.  Orchestral arrangers will hear the "single line instruments" as melodic intentions of the composer given limitations of the instrumentation.  This is not always the case with chamber music.  Mussorgsky's Picture's at an Exhibition is text book example of an orchestral work composed on the piano and it's not because of Ravel's arrangement, there are about 1,000 arrangements of it with Ravel being the most famous (and frankly most accomplished).  But perhaps I'm just crazy and as a composer and orchestrator myself, I always hear things arranged in different ways which again you need to grant me that license which I said "we need to agree to disagree" because we won't agree on this.  Here is something we can disagree on though, I belief Shostakovich is primarily an orchestral composer and hears everything as an orchestral composer would and then when necessary translates it to chamber music. I have no proof of this, it's just how I hear it.  This is in contrast to Chopin or Liszt who I hear are chamber composers who then sometimes interpret their music for orchestras.  Scriabin is practically entirely a symphonic composer who mostly wrote for piano.

If anything I think it's the reverse. But it's actually neither. Shostakovich's style is fundamentally contrapuntal and perfectly suited for both orchestral and chamber music. His quartet music is perfectly crafted for the ensemble. His quartets are the very heart of his output.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on May 05, 2021, 08:15:38 PM
The notion that Scriabin is an orchestral composer pretty much is a notion that you can ignore what someone wrote in favour of some kind of theoretical argument that playing that many notes on a piano is somehow wrong.

Edit: I just find most discussion and justification of arrangements and orchestrations fundamentally ignores the ways in which music was heard at the time and how different it is to the modern relationship to recorded music. There are any number of composers who demonstrated that they made a conscious choice as to what instruments to use, and it frankly mystifies me why so many people are so determined to ignore that choice. When a composer provided or agreed to multiple options, fine. Otherwise leave it the hell alone. If you wouldn't muck about with the notes, don't muck about with the texture either.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on July 01, 2021, 02:21:00 AM
Listening to various concertos in the last few days has brought me back to the Shostakovich SQs, via the Carducci Qt release of 4, 8 and 11. I have found it really powerful, and as a result, have been listening again to the Borodin set of these incredibly moving works. Isn't it strange how sometimes you can be completely stopped in your tracks by beauty and deep feeling brought on by music?

I have revisited SQs 4, 15, 2 and 8 so far, and wonder at the emotive depth in each piece. I know each cycle has strengths, but I think this one will occupy my listening for a good few days.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 01, 2021, 06:28:16 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 01, 2021, 02:21:00 AM
Listening to various concertos in the last few days has brought me back to the Shostakovich SQs, via the Carducci Qt release of 4, 8 and 11. I have found it really powerful, and as a result, have been listening again to the Borodin set of these incredibly moving works. Isn't it strange how sometimes you can be completely stopped in your tracks by beauty and deep feeling brought on by music?

I have revisited SQs 4, 15, 2 and 8 so far, and wonder at the emotive depth in each piece. I know each cycle has strengths, but I think this one will occupy my listening for a good few days.

Excellent! Shostakovich's SQs are not only some of his most important works, but also a major contribution to classical music of any era.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on July 01, 2021, 10:43:56 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 01, 2021, 06:28:16 AM
Excellent! Shostakovich's SQs are not only some of his most important works, but also a major contribution to classical music of any era.

Emotional, mournful  evocative... short break to lighter music while I breathe and then return, but these are glorious 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 01, 2021, 07:21:25 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 01, 2021, 10:43:56 AM
Emotional, mournful  evocative... short break to lighter music while I breathe and then return, but these are glorious

Take a deep breath --- Shostakovich will be awaiting your return. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on July 02, 2021, 12:20:57 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 01, 2021, 07:21:25 PM
Take a deep breath --- Shostakovich will be awaiting your return. :)

Yesterday evening was a welcome diversion into most of Richard Arnell's symphonies to bring some familiar and less emotionally taut music for a while (apart from #3, which is longer and needing more attention than I remembered).

Back to SQ6 this morning. Despite the discussion around the subject matter of the Lento, this is a really engaging work. I'm coming to increasingly look forward to DSCH's use of folk song in snapshot or developed sections, even when its purpose is tragic or ppainful. I do find that Lento extremely poignant and am more convinced of the reflective sadness than purposeful tranquillity.

In any case, this is beautiful.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: milk on July 02, 2021, 04:27:18 AM
I wonder if anyone has compared sets of the preludes and fugues. My introduction to this was Melnikov and for a while I only listened to him. More recently I've been listening to Peter Donohoe, Muza Rubackyte and David Jalbert. There's also Boris Petrushansky. I'm just curious if people find anyone in particular to be revelatory and how much variety of interpretation there is in this masterpiece.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 02, 2021, 06:07:54 AM
Quote from: milk on July 02, 2021, 04:27:18 AM
I wonder if anyone has compared sets of the preludes and fugues. My introduction to this was Melnikov and for a while I only listened to him. More recently I've been listening to Peter Donohoe, Muza Rubackyte and David Jalbert. There's also Boris Petrushansky. I'm just curious if people find anyone in particular to be revelatory and how much variety of interpretation there is in this masterpiece.

My introduction to these extraordinary works was Roger Woodward back when the set was on RCA(I think!).  I enjoyed it all over again when it got released on CD.  To be honest I don't know that many sets to be able to make much of a balanced judgement.  I only know Nikolaeva through her last Hyperion set and I have/had this nagging feeling that time had just caught up technically although of course interpretatively you can't ignore what she does.  I did enjoy Ashkenazy's set although perhaps he's just a little soft-edged emotionally at times......?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 02, 2021, 06:14:31 AM
Quote from: milk on July 02, 2021, 04:27:18 AM
I wonder if anyone has compared sets of the preludes and fugues. My introduction to this was Melnikov and for a while I only listened to him. More recently I've been listening to Peter Donohoe, Muza Rubackyte and David Jalbert. There's also Boris Petrushansky. I'm just curious if people find anyone in particular to be revelatory and how much variety of interpretation there is in this masterpiece.
I'm very fond of Melnikov, Rubackyte, Ashkenazy and Shcherbakov. Although he isn't everybody's money, I like Mustonen, too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 02, 2021, 06:50:33 AM
Quote from: milk on July 02, 2021, 04:27:18 AM
I wonder if anyone has compared sets of the preludes and fugues. My introduction to this was Melnikov and for a while I only listened to him. More recently I've been listening to Peter Donohoe, Muza Rubackyte and David Jalbert. There's also Boris Petrushansky. I'm just curious if people find anyone in particular to be revelatory and how much variety of interpretation there is in this masterpiece.

I love Melnikov, Ashkenazy and Nikolayeva (on Melodiya). I haven't ventured any further, but really haven't felt the need to either with these three pianists' recordings.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on July 02, 2021, 09:32:56 AM
Having been a long-time (20 years plus) buyer of music on vinyl the Hyperion set of Nikolayeva was the first CD(s) I ever bought.  It's often said that she was losing her chops by the time she recorded this, but I don't hear anything amiss at all.  The sound recording generally (my first experience of CD and reverb sinking into black silence) was a complete revelation to me - although I would now call the piano sound slightly too recessed for my taste - very typically Hyperion in fact.

My overall preference now is for Jenny Lin - a bit more dramatic and less soulful, and very well recorded in a more up-front way.  I also have Melnikov, and Jarrett, but never play either of them, always preferring Lin or Nikolayeva.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on July 02, 2021, 04:27:22 PM
I enjoyed the new Andris Nelsons/BSO release of No. 1.  He makes it sound quite romantic and a work of a mature composer.  It's quite an impressive debut in his hands.  Thankfully the timpani solo is in tune.  But a bit tame.  It sounds like a mature composer's effort rather than a debut from an L'Enfant terrible.  A bit too polished but very impressive.  It reminds me somewhat of MTT Mahler SFO cycle, perfect audio but safe.  I might prefer my Shostakovitch more on the edge.  The ending was great though!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 02, 2021, 06:49:19 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 02, 2021, 04:27:22 PM
I enjoyed the new Andris Nelsons/BSO release of No. 1.  He makes it sound quite romantic and a work of a mature composer.  It's quite an impressive debut in his hands.  Thankfully the timpani solo is in tune.  But a bit tame.  It sounds like a mature composer's effort rather than a debut from an L'Enfant terrible.  A bit too polished but very impressive.  It reminds me somewhat of MTT Mahler SFO cycle, perfect audio but safe.  I might prefer my Shostakovitch more on the edge.  The ending was great though!

Очень интересно!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 02, 2021, 08:36:50 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 02, 2021, 04:27:22 PM
I enjoyed the new Andris Nelsons/BSO release of No. 1.  He makes it sound quite romantic and a work of a mature composer.  It's quite an impressive debut in his hands.  Thankfully the timpani solo is in tune.  But a bit tame.  It sounds like a mature composer's effort rather than a debut from an L'Enfant terrible.  A bit too polished but very impressive.  It reminds me somewhat of MTT Mahler SFO cycle, perfect audio but safe.  I might prefer my Shostakovitch more on the edge.  The ending was great though!

Haven't listened to the 1st, but I recently listened to the 15th from this disc and found it to be incredibly well done. Nelson gave it a very thoughtful interpretation.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 03, 2021, 12:23:22 AM
Quote from: milk on July 02, 2021, 04:27:18 AM
I wonder if anyone has compared sets of the preludes and fugues. My introduction to this was Melnikov and for a while I only listened to him. More recently I've been listening to Peter Donohoe, Muza Rubackyte and David Jalbert. There's also Boris Petrushansky. I'm just curious if people find anyone in particular to be revelatory and how much variety of interpretation there is in this masterpiece.

Somewhere (on this thread?) is my blow by blow comparison of 3... EDIT: No, I don't think it's this thread, maybe a thread dedicated to the preludes and fugues.

SECOND EDIT: Found it here. https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1401.msg1274011.html#msg1274011
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: milk on July 03, 2021, 04:08:33 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 03, 2021, 12:23:22 AM
Somewhere (on this thread?) is my blow by blow comparison of 3... EDIT: No, I don't think it's this thread, maybe a thread dedicated to the preludes and fugues.

SECOND EDIT: Found it here. https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1401.msg1274011.html#msg1274011
Thanks! Looking forward to it!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on July 06, 2021, 06:44:23 AM
Having found some real accessibility in the lower numbered SQs, I've now moved on to SQ 12 as my next in the cycle.

Wow, this SQ is much more difficult for me. Any assistance in helping me get my head round this SQ would be gratefully received. I'm currently on repeat in the first movement, which without the more obviously tuneful sections of other quartets, is challenging. Rising and falling 12 tone rows are harder to enjoy than folk-infused melodies, initially at least. Not having a musical background makes it harder to appreciate the inherent beauty of structural architecture! It's hard to know what is good and why. It feels a bit like trying to love quadratic equations. I want to get it, though. At the moment, it feels a bit meandering and a tougher nut to crack. I think I am identifying and grasping the legato melody, at last. Any hooks to grapple this better, and things to watch out for across the work would help me, I think?

What is it that you love or appreciate about it?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on July 06, 2021, 07:47:40 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 06, 2021, 06:44:23 AM
Having found some real accessibility in the lower numbered SQs, I've now moved on to SQ 12 as my next in the cycle.

Wow, this SQ is much more difficult for me. Any assistance in helping me get my head round this SQ would be gratefully received. I'm currently on repeat in the first movement, which without the more obviously tuneful sections of other quartets, is challenging. Rising and falling 12 tone rows are harder to enjoy than folk-infused melodies, initially at least. Not having a musical background makes it harder to appreciate the inherent beauty of structural architecture! It's hard to know what is good and why. It feels a bit like trying to love quadratic equations. I want to get it, though. At the moment, it feels a bit meandering and a tougher nut to crack. I think I am identifying and grasping the legato melody, at last. Any hooks to grapple this better, and things to watch out for across the work would help me, I think?

What is it that you love or appreciate about it?

Have no fear, number 12 is indeed a thorny beast!  :D

That being said, I still really enjoy this piece. I particularly love the recapitulation at the end of the quartet, which goes over the opening of the second movement.

The opening movement I find is full of haunting beauty.

An odd quartet all around, in its key of D flat and unconventional two movements.

The thorns dull and are painless with more repeated attention to this work!  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 06, 2021, 07:54:46 AM
Well, I started with what the notes in the Fitzwilliam set told me about that one...

It's one of my absolute favourites. I'll be back when it's not the middle of the night and insomnia isn't dominating my mind.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: krummholz on July 06, 2021, 07:56:40 AM
The 12th Quartet is indeed a thorny work. Yes, Dmitri uses a "tone row" in it, but not serially - it is more of a recurring melodic motif. The main theme of the first movement is rather melancholy but very much in the main key of D-flat. The second movement seems to me to be the crux of the musical argument, as a spiky, driven dance alternates with slower, more languid interludes. Just before the coda he reprises the opening of the *first* movement, then the coda proper returns to the opening material of the second movement, now in a major key. It's about as triumphant as anything DS wrote in his later years, puts me in mind of dancing on someone's grave (Stalin's maybe?).

My only advice is to keep listening. In time the logic, both structural and emotional, becomes clear, but it is not easily expressed in words.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on July 07, 2021, 04:19:02 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on July 06, 2021, 07:47:40 AM
Have no fear, number 12 is indeed a thorny beast!  :D

That being said, I still really enjoy this piece. I particularly love the recapitulation at the end of the quartet, which goes over the opening of the second movement.

The opening movement I find is full of haunting beauty.

An odd quartet all around, in its key of D flat and unconventional two movements.

The thorns dull and are painless with more repeated attention to this work!  :)

Thank you so much. Thorny is a great descriptor. I am trying to grasp the thorns and ignore the pain for the inevitable beauty that is yet to come. The more I hear the first movement, the more I can see the haunting elements of which you speak.

Quote from: Madiel on July 06, 2021, 07:54:46 AM
Well, I started with what the notes in the Fitzwilliam set told me about that one...

It's one of my absolute favourites. I'll be back when it's not the middle of the night and insomnia isn't dominating my mind.

I wish I had access to the notes. It is one of the areas where streaming services or downloads fall desperately short compared to owning hard copy. I'm glad to hear that it is a favourite - it holds out hope for me that the same might eventually true for me also. The meandering quality of the rising fall of the violin and cello is becoming a familiar backdrop to everything else that is happening here. I very much look forward to further wisdom as and when you feel able to share those thoughts :). Thank you!

Quote from: krummholz on July 06, 2021, 07:56:40 AM
The 12th Quartet is indeed a thorny work. Yes, Dmitri uses a "tone row" in it, but not serially - it is more of a recurring melodic motif. The main theme of the first movement is rather melancholy but very much in the main key of D-flat. The second movement seems to me to be the crux of the musical argument, as a spiky, driven dance alternates with slower, more languid interludes. Just before the coda he reprises the opening of the *first* movement, then the coda proper returns to the opening material of the second movement, now in a major key. It's about as triumphant as anything DS wrote in his later years, puts me in mind of dancing on someone's grave (Stalin's maybe?).

My only advice is to keep listening. In time the logic, both structural and emotional, becomes clear, but it is not easily expressed in words.

I am persevering! I am applying a Holmboe-like tenacity to get my claws in :). I know that time and effort transforms the listening experience, so am glad to put in the hard miles. Spiky, driven dance sounds about right. I also love your grave-dancing analogy. Thanks for these helpful words!

To quote a certain Eric Cartman, I love you guys...

*spins SQ #12*
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 07, 2021, 04:52:45 AM
Some streaming services do let you see booklets from albums, by the way (though not all albums).

Okay, let me try to gather my thoughts on SQ 12, without breaching too much of the copyright of the Fitzwilliam set.  :laugh:

Heck, I might as well just listen to the work while typing.

I agree with krummholz a fair bit actually. The very opening might be 'atonal', but in truth it isn't an atonal work. To me, the essence of it is in fact about a battle of atonality and tonality, with tonality emerging triumphant.

The first movement quickly shows that it really is in D flat major, with the cello figure that keeps hesitantly climbing the scale. I find it rather beautiful actually. In between those sections, there's some of Shostakovich's Jewish-style dancing too. That's effectively the whole movement, alternating between those 2 things.

But it's the 2nd movement that is really something epic. This is where you get something that sounds like it's atonal, with that obsessive rhythm and weird shrieking trills. There's a quieter part minus the trills, but it's still essentially the same rhythm. Then you have chaotic runs before the trills and the quieter version interchange a little bit, even more chaotic runs... after maybe 7 minutes (obviously will depend on recording) all of this stops for a cello solo which gets interrupted by, and then accompanied by, what sound almost like muted horn calls from the other instruments, a kind of funeral procession.

About 11 minutes in you get pizzicato... and what it starts doing is a rather dramatised and nasty version of the 1st movement's climbing theme. This is where the battle really begins.  :D  You get this warped version of the 1st movement climbing figure, a dash of the funeral music, and then some really violent pizzicato chords start happening. Then the funeral horn calls reappear... followed by a much calmer and more recognisable version of the 1st movement them, almost like a lullaby at this point. There's also a quote of the 1st movement's 'atonal' opening in there.

Now that calm has been achieved, the 2nd movement's obsessive rhythm and trills can creep back in. But now the rhythm knows it's in D flat major. The atonal elements try to fight back, but they keep losing as the rhythm keeps insisting on D flat major. There's plenty of spikiness, but the music in the last few minutes is most definitely in a key.

...I bloody love it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on July 07, 2021, 05:20:45 AM
Strangely of all the Shostakovich quartets I've always felt it's no. 12 that would work best as a "chamber symphony", and yet as far as I know, no one has ever touched it. (Nos. 1, 3, 4, 8, & 10 are established "chamber symphonies"; 13 is an established "chamber concerto" for viola and strings; I feel like I've also definitely heard string orchestra versions of 2 and 15, but they may not be canonical yet.)

It's definitely in my top three but it does have that kind of late Shostakovich combination of insistence and deliberate paring down of material—disguised in this case by the fact that especially in the second movement there is an enormous wealth of material on the surface, but almost all of it is not thematic. I can see it being difficult to follow. I got to know it by following along with a score, but obviously this is only helpful for people who can read music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 07, 2021, 06:40:28 AM
Quote from: amw on July 07, 2021, 05:20:45 AM
Strangely of all the Shostakovich quartets I've always felt it's no. 12 that would work best as a "chamber symphony", and yet as far as I know, no one has ever touched it. (Nos. 1, 3, 4, 8, & 10 are established "chamber symphonies"; 13 is an established "chamber concerto" for viola and strings; I feel like I've also definitely heard string orchestra versions of 2 and 15, but they may not be canonical yet.)

It's definitely in my top three but it does have that kind of late Shostakovich combination of insistence and deliberate paring down of material—disguised in this case by the fact that especially in the second movement there is an enormous wealth of material on the surface, but almost all of it is not thematic. I can see it being difficult to follow. I got to know it by following along with a score, but obviously this is only helpful for people who can read music.

Personally, I don't really see the need for anyone to have orchestrated any of Shostakovich's SQs. They're perfect the way they are, IMHO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on July 07, 2021, 07:33:30 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 07, 2021, 04:52:45 AM
Some streaming services do let you see booklets from albums, by the way (though not all albums).

Okay, let me try to gather my thoughts on SQ 12, without breaching too much of the copyright of the Fitzwilliam set.  :laugh:

Heck, I might as well just listen to the work while typing.

I agree with krummholz a fair bit actually. The very opening might be 'atonal', but in truth it isn't an atonal work. To me, the essence of it is in fact about a battle of atonality and tonality, with tonality emerging triumphant.

The first movement quickly shows that it really is in D flat major, with the cello figure that keeps hesitantly climbing the scale. I find it rather beautiful actually. In between those sections, there's some of Shostakovich's Jewish-style dancing too. That's effectively the whole movement, alternating between those 2 things.

But it's the 2nd movement that is really something epic. This is where you get something that sounds like it's atonal, with that obsessive rhythm and weird shrieking trills. There's a quieter part minus the trills, but it's still essentially the same rhythm. Then you have chaotic runs before the trills and the quieter version interchange a little bit, even more chaotic runs... after maybe 7 minutes (obviously will depend on recording) all of this stops for a cello solo which gets interrupted by, and then accompanied by, what sound almost like muted horn calls from the other instruments, a kind of funeral procession.

About 11 minutes in you get pizzicato... and what it starts doing is a rather dramatised and nasty version of the 1st movement's climbing theme. This is where the battle really begins.  :D  You get this warped version of the 1st movement climbing figure, a dash of the funeral music, and then some really violent pizzicato chords start happening. Then the funeral horn calls reappear... followed by a much calmer and more recognisable version of the 1st movement them, almost like a lullaby at this point. There's also a quote of the 1st movement's 'atonal' opening in there.

Now that calm has been achieved, the 2nd movement's obsessive rhythm and trills can creep back in. But now the rhythm knows it's in D flat major. The atonal elements try to fight back, but they keep losing as the rhythm keeps insisting on D flat major. There's plenty of spikiness, but the music in the last few minutes is most definitely in a key.

...I bloody love it.

Ah, this is excellent too, Madiel. Your descriptiveness is a great read, as well as being a great overview. Thank you.

Combining these comments and using them as keys that you have each found to unlock parts of the SQ's internal doors, is a great way for me to access parts and understand elements that would be so much harder alone. Your individual and technical maps are far better for me than hopeful personal guesswork, so I value all that you can give!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on July 11, 2021, 05:36:10 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 07, 2021, 06:40:28 AM
Personally, I don't really see the need for anyone to have orchestrated any of Shostakovich's SQs. They're perfect the way they are, IMHO.

This doesn't make any sense to me.  It's just like saying "Personally, I don't really ee the need for anyone else to have recorded any of Shostakovich's SQ's.  Borodin SQ performance are perfect the way they are, IMHO."  You see why this makes no sense?  Interpreters hear something new and different in a work that you might not hear.  That's the whole point.  It's a new interpretation of how they hear it.  Sometimes it's more successful (in some ways perhaps) and sometimes not but to argue no further interpretation is necessary is a very strange position, IMHO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2021, 06:07:42 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 11, 2021, 05:36:10 AM
This doesn't make any sense to me.  It's just like saying "Personally, I don't really ee the need for anyone else to have recorded any of Shostakovich's SQ's.  Borodin SQ performance are perfect the way they are, IMHO."  You see why this makes no sense?  Interpreters hear something new and different in a work that you might not hear.  That's the whole point.  It's a new interpretation of how they hear it.  Sometimes it's more successful (in some ways perhaps) and sometimes not but to argue no further interpretation is necessary is a very strange position, IMHO.

I meant that these works are beautiful as string quartets and this is my preferred way of listening to them --- in their original form. For me, there isn't a need for any further elaboration on them, but if you enjoy those Chamber Symphonies (arranged by Barshai if I'm not mistaken and perhaps some others) then nobody is stopping you from doing so, but I don't care anything about them.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on July 11, 2021, 06:15:42 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 11, 2021, 05:36:10 AM
This doesn't make any sense to me.  It's just like saying "Personally, I don't really ee the need for anyone else to have recorded any of Shostakovich's SQ's.  Borodin SQ performance are perfect the way they are, IMHO."  You see why this makes no sense?  Interpreters hear something new and different in a work that you might not hear.  That's the whole point.  It's a new interpretation of how they hear it.  Sometimes it's more successful (in some ways perhaps) and sometimes not but to argue no further interpretation is necessary is a very strange position, IMHO.

This is a bogus argument. Different interpretations among different string quartets, the ensemble authorized by the composer, are in no way comparable to unauthorized arrangements for other ensembles. Calling the latter "interpretations" is a cynical and obvious distortion of the term's meaning. Shostakovich wrote the works for string quartet. Do you have a problem appreciating music for solo strings? Many people do. If so, why not just own it rather than brutalizing logic and good sense to justify your preference?

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2021, 06:17:30 AM
Quote from: BasilValentine on July 11, 2021, 06:15:42 AM
This is a bogus argument. Different interpretations among different string quartets, the ensemble authorized by the composer, are in no way comparable to unauthorized arrangements for other ensembles. Calling the latter "interpretations" is a cynical and obvious distortion of the term's meaning. Shostakovich wrote the works for string quartet. Do you have a problem appreciating music for solo strings? Many people do.

FWIW, that's not how I read him.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on July 11, 2021, 06:19:42 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 11, 2021, 06:17:30 AM
FWIW, that's not how I read him.

Likewise—nowhere did Relm say (s)he did/could not enjoy the string quartets nor that (s)he prefers the string symphony arrangements.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2021, 06:22:34 AM
Of course, Rudolf Barshai was the founding violist of the Borodin Quartet. No one supposes that he had any "problem" with the Shostakovich quartets qua quartets, I trust?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2021, 06:32:24 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 11, 2021, 06:22:34 AM
Of course, Rudolf Barshai was the founding violist of the Borodin Quartet. No one supposes that he had any "problem" with the Shostakovich quartets qua quartets, I trust?

I'm being presumptuous here I'm sure, but I believe that Shostakovich had no problems whatsoever with Barshai's arrangements and perhaps felt it to be an honor to have such orchestrations done in the first-place.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2021, 06:38:41 AM
I find it rather amusing that my initial comment on preferring the SQs as they are has spiraled out-of-control. Look, everyone, I like what I like and to question or comment on what my preference is seems to me to be bizarre and comes across as finger-wagging.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2021, 06:48:29 AM
I assure you my fingers are (well, not still, as I am typing but) certainly not wagging ... just a note that "not really seeing the need for anyone to have done such-and-so" reads very differently from the straightforward expression of a preference.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2021, 06:54:18 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 11, 2021, 06:48:29 AM
I assure you my fingers are (well, not still, as I am typing but) certainly not wagging ... just a note that "not really seeing the need for anyone to have done such-and-so" reads very differently from the straightforward expression of a preference.

Yes, but the implication is very clear in what I meant. This seems like a case of reading too much into what I wrote. Anyway, I wrote what I wrote and I can't take it back, but I reiterated this preference, so any further discussion on this matter is moot at this juncture I'd say.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2021, 07:31:11 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 11, 2021, 06:32:24 AM
I'm being presumptuous here I'm sure, but I believe that Shostakovich had no problems whatsoever with Barshai's arrangements and perhaps felt it to be an honor to have such orchestrations done in the first-place.

I was curious, and looked in the index of Elizabeth Wilson's Shostakovich: A Life Remembered, but I don't find any reference to the arrangement.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on July 11, 2021, 08:43:28 AM
The thing is, the Chamber Symphonies seem a bit mis-named to appear more than what they are - as far as I can hear,  very straighforward arrangements of string quartet music for massed strings.  There may be some doubling (eg cellos and double basses) but there is no new music - just different timbres.  And the big downside is you lose that chamber group interaction - what is left just sounds anodyne, elevator music almost.  It's just jobs for the orchestral boys really.
I don't imagine there is any issue with DSCH approval - some if not all of these were published long before his death.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2021, 09:35:22 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 11, 2021, 08:43:28 AM
The thing is, the Chamber Symphonies seem a bit mis-named to appear more than what they are - as far as I can hear,  very straighforward arrangements of string quartet music for massed strings.

A fair point.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 11, 2021, 02:09:44 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 11, 2021, 08:43:28 AM
The thing is, the Chamber Symphonies seem a bit mis-named to appear more than what they are - as far as I can hear,  very straighforward arrangements of string quartet music for massed strings.  There may be some doubling (eg cellos and double basses) but there is no new music - just different timbres.  And the big downside is you lose that chamber group interaction - what is left just sounds anodyne, elevator music almost.  It's just jobs for the orchestral boys really.
I don't imagine there is any issue with DSCH approval - some if not all of these were published long before his death.

A very fair point.  But much the same can be said for just about ALL "rearrangements" of quartets for string orchestra.  Think Mahler's version of Death and the Maiden - he hardly changes a thing except adding some double bass doubling and a bit of dynamics and phrasing.  I can't think of a single such arrrangement that adds sunstantively to the quartet original
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2021, 02:23:57 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 11, 2021, 08:43:28 AM
[snip] but there is no new music - just different timbres.  And the big downside is you lose that chamber group interaction - what is left just sounds anodyne, elevator music almost.  It's just jobs for the orchestral boys really.

Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 11, 2021, 02:09:44 PM
A very fair point.  But much the same can be said for just about ALL "rearrangements" of quartets for string orchestra.  Think Mahler's version of Death and the Maiden - he hardly changes a thing except adding some double bass doubling and a bit of dynamics and phrasing.  I can't think of a single such arrangement that adds substantively to the quartet original

I want to add that, from my viewpoint. the arrangement (which perforce tends to be minimal) for string orchestra in no way seems inherently dulling. I do not find that at all in the case of, say, Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht, nor Kremerata Baltica's arrangement of Weinberg's Piano Quintet. I'd say that I find the Moscow Virtuosi performance of the Op. 110a as nervy and focused as a performance by a quartet of the original.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 11, 2021, 02:26:44 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 11, 2021, 05:36:10 AM
This doesn't make any sense to me.  It's just like saying "Personally, I don't really ee the need for anyone else to have recorded any of Shostakovich's SQ's.  Borodin SQ performance are perfect the way they are, IMHO."  You see why this makes no sense?  Interpreters hear something new and different in a work that you might not hear.  That's the whole point.  It's a new interpretation of how they hear it.  Sometimes it's more successful (in some ways perhaps) and sometimes not but to argue no further interpretation is necessary is a very strange position, IMHO.

It's not all the same. What makes no sense to me is claiming this is just an "interpretation".

An interpretation does not involve ignoring or changing the composer's decisions. Changing the instrumentation does involve ignoring or changing the composer's decisions. Because instrumentation WAS a decision. And it affected everything else about the music.

I'm really amazed at just how many people believe that instruments are just interchangeable things with no consequence.

Arrangements can be done, but only with ENORMOUS care and it's done far, far too often. By far best done by the composer themselves.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 11, 2021, 02:33:00 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 11, 2021, 02:23:57 PM
I want to add that, from my viewpoint. the arrangement (which perforce tends to be minimal) for string orchestra in no way seems inherently dulling. I do not find that at all in the case of, say, Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht, nor Kremerata Baltica's arrangement of Weinberg's Piano Quintet. I'd say that I find the Moscow Virtuosi performance of the Op. 110a as nervy and focused as a performance by a quartet of the original.

The orchestral Schoenberg is indeed dull compared to the original.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2021, 02:35:08 PM
Quote from: Madiel on July 11, 2021, 02:33:00 PM
The orchestral Schoenberg is indeed dull compared to the original.

I don't doubt that there are recordings to justify that opinion.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 11, 2021, 02:37:06 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 11, 2021, 02:35:08 PM
I don't doubt that there are recordings to justify that opinion.

Karajan.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on July 11, 2021, 03:31:52 PM
Quote from: Madiel on July 11, 2021, 02:26:44 PM
It's not all the same. What makes no sense to me is claiming this is just an "interpretation".

An interpretation does not involve ignoring or changing the composer's decisions. Changing the instrumentation does involve ignoring or changing the composer's decisions. Because instrumentation WAS a decision. And it affected everything else about the music.

I'm really amazed at just how many people believe that instruments are just interchangeable things with no consequence.

Arrangements can be done, but only with ENORMOUS care and it's done far, far too often. By far best done by the composer themselves.

Of course it's an interpretation.  Of how the orchestrator interpreted it.  Conductor interpret composers all the time.  That means they ingore tempo sometimes and dynamics, sometimes phrasing, sometimes expressive indication.   EVERY conductor interprets the wishes of the composer.  Some far more than others.  The same with performers.  Follow the scores of operas or concerti.  I guarantee you, there is massive interpretive versions happening.  Pavaratti is NOT singing the phrasing Puccini wrote.  He's embellishing it...and making it his own version.  Some will hate his version, they can, but shouldn't dismiss that interpretive choice that each artist is making if it's the conductor, performer, soloist, or even orchestrator.  You can hate the idea of someone doing it and that's probably what Mirror meant to say but not what he said.  Some of these people are also orchestrators or other composers and are doing the very same thing.   Here is a simple challenge for you and anyone who thinks like you.  Have you ever played a work that's in the standard repertoire as an orchestral performer?  Have you ever played that work by multiple conductors...perhaps maybe even in the same evening?  How would you say they differed in the version of this work...as if they had their own...INTERPRETATION?????

Anyway, enough of this topic.  Let's just saw we strongly disagree. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 11, 2021, 04:19:42 PM
In the age of recorded music there is zero need to go around doing this.

Here's a thought experiment for YOU: try imagining yourself as a composer and see how you feel about people ignoring what was one of the very first key decisions you made about the music.

I write songs from time to time. They come with a sound. It's damn annoying when a song decides to be guitar based because I can't play the guitar, but there it is. I can't pretend I heard a piano in my mind just because it would be so much more convenient for my performance capability.

Basically you assert the primacy of performers. I'm with Ravel. Composers are in charge. A performer who goes wandering off THAT far from the composition isn't doing their damn job, and if it was one of my compositions I'd be angry.

It's a mystery to me how you can repeatedly equate the vagaries of tempo and dynamics and other imprecise forms of notation with something as definite as "pick up the following instruments". Next you'll be telling me that replacing notes with other notes you prefer is just "interpretation".

No-one besides you calls it "interpretation" in the first place. It's called an arrangement. This conversation is happening precisely because you decided to invent a new meaning for the word "interpretation" that is not used by actual arrangers.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2021, 05:08:59 PM
Quote from: Madiel on July 11, 2021, 04:19:42 PM
In the age of recorded music there is zero need to go around doing this.

Here's a thought experiment for YOU: try imagining yourself as a composer and see how you feel about people ignoring what was one of the very first key decisions you made about the music.

I write songs from time to time. They come with a sound. It's damn annoying when a song decides to be guitar based because I can't play the guitar, but there it is. I can't pretend I heard a piano in my mind just because it would be so much more convenient for my performance capability.

Basically you assert the primacy of performers. I'm with Ravel. Composers are in charge. A performer who goes wandering off THAT far from the composition isn't doing their damn job, and if it was one of my compositions I'd be angry.

It's a mystery to me how you can repeatedly equate the vagaries of tempo and dynamics and other imprecise forms of notation with something as definite as "pick up the following instruments". Next you'll be telling me that replacing notes with other notes you prefer is just "interpretation".

No-one besides you calls it "interpretation" in the first place. It's called an arrangement. This conversation is happening precisely because you decided to invent a new meaning for the word "interpretation" that is not used by actual arrangers.

My friend, I reject entirely the fanciful, and indeed Romantic assertion that the composer must find this disagreeable. In Bach and Handel we have obvious examples of composers reassigning music without regard for sacrosanctity of their initial timbral conception: a concept of their work existing in a sort of to-be-colored abstract. Sure, that was the norm (we might say) for the era, but it is also an example for composers. And while it is true that the general feeling was otherwise in the Romantic era, there is no point at which we can say that it changed for all serious composers thenceforth. Brahms himself arranged the Opus 120 clarinet sonatas for viola the year after he first composed them. In the 20th c. Ravel frequently arranged his piano pieces for orchestra, in "defiance" of his original conception. And the art of arranging was a special study within Schoenberg's circle: think of Berg arranging the Adagio of his Chamber Concerto for Piano and Violin with 13 Wind Instruments for piano, violin and clarinet. The idea that after some arbitrary date, composers must be outraged at the idea of their music being sensitively arranged won't hold water.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 11, 2021, 05:23:20 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 11, 2021, 05:08:59 PM
My friend, I reject entirely the fanciful, and indeed Romantic assertion that the composer must find this disagreeable. In Bach and Handel we have obvious examples of composers reassigning music without regard for sacrosanctity of their initial timbral conception: a concept of their work existing in a sort of to-be-colored abstract. Sure, that was the norm (we might say) for the era, but it is also an example for composers. And while it is true that the general feeling was otherwise in the Romantic era, there is no point at which we can say that it changed for all serious composers thenceforth. Brahms himself arranged the Opus 120 clarinet sonatas for viola the year after he first composed them. In the 20th c. Ravel frequently arranged his piano pieces for orchestra, in "defiance" of his original conception. And the art of arranging was a special study within Schoenberg's circle: think of Berg arranging the Adagio of his Chamber Concerto for Piano and Violin with 13 Wind Instruments for piano, violin and clarinet. The idea that after some arbitrary date, composers must be outraged at the idea of their music being sensitively arranged won't hold water.

You are right that it depends on the era. and I have already indicated that the best person to arrange music is the composer themselves (though even then the results are variable, and Ravel regretted one of his own arrangements).

My issue is with people being so glib about the process.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 11, 2021, 07:03:29 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 11, 2021, 07:31:11 AM
I was curious, and looked in the index of Elizabeth Wilson's Shostakovich: A Life Remembered, but I don't find any reference to the arrangement.

A fine book, but, yeah, I would imagine it's difficult to find his opinion of Barshai's arrangement. Our dear ol' Dmitri was pretty button-lipped when it came to many matters. He was extremely careful who he chose to confide in and given the political environment during much of his compositional career, it's understandable.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on July 11, 2021, 08:43:48 PM
Either you like arrangements, or you don't. If the latter, there is a simple solution (don't listen to them).

Shostakovich arranged quite a lot of other people's music and some of his own, and seemed comfortable with other people arranging his work as well. I do sometimes come across arrangements that seem to destroy the essential characteristics of a piece of music, but not often, and sometimes that's the composer's own arrangement (Schoenberg, Verklärte Nacht has already been brought up) so clearly whatever quality that I saw as essential was not so regarded by the composer themself.

I have my own tastes in arrangements; I won't listen to, e.g., any arrangement of a classical piece into a popular music style, because any potential insights from that arrangement are not interesting to me. But I can't bring myself to care if someone arranges Shostakovich's second piano trio for three bandoneons and drumkit and adds a latin rhythmic feel. I'm sure someone will enjoy it, even if not me.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 11, 2021, 10:08:42 PM
Quote from: amw on July 11, 2021, 08:43:48 PM
Either you like arrangements, or you don't. If the latter, there is a simple solution (don't listen to them).

And yet this pretty much started with someone objecting to exactly that personal choice.

Moving on. I have some more op.87 interpretations to listen to.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 12, 2021, 11:42:21 AM
Quote from: Madiel on July 11, 2021, 10:08:42 PM
And yet this pretty much started with someone objecting to exactly that personal choice.

Bingo! You nailed it here, Madiel. This whole exchange about preferences and arrangements has left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I should've worded my initial post differently as the snowball effect might've kept from happening altogether. A lesson learned here for sure.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Iota on July 12, 2021, 12:35:24 PM
Sorry it leaves a bad taste in your mouth, MI, but it was an interesting discussion nonetheless.

I suppose it's possible that at some point a composer has heard an arrangement of their music and thought it rather better than what they originally wrote. Which speculation, to me at least, suggests it's worth a punt perhaps. Though an arrangement that became more popular than the original could I imagine be a source of some irritation. Anyway just my two pennies worth, I don't want to get in the way of a resumption of normal Shosty service.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 12, 2021, 12:47:00 PM
Quote from: Iota on July 12, 2021, 12:35:24 PM
Sorry it leaves a bad taste in your mouth, MI, but it was an interesting discussion nonetheless.

I suppose it's possible that at some point a composer has heard an arrangement of their music and thought it rather better than what they originally wrote. Which speculation, to me at least, suggests it's worth a punt perhaps. Though an arrangement that became more popular than the original could I imagine be a source of some irritation. Anyway just my two pennies worth, I don't want to get in the way of a resumption of normal Shosty service.

No worries. I'll have to be more careful and not word things so haphazardly as I did initially.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 12, 2021, 01:55:55 PM
Quote from: Iota on July 12, 2021, 12:35:24 PM
Sorry it leaves a bad taste in your mouth, MI, but it was an interesting discussion nonetheless.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 27, 2021, 02:52:18 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 11, 2021, 05:08:59 PM
My friend, I reject entirely the fanciful, and indeed Romantic assertion that the composer must find this disagreeable. In Bach and Handel we have obvious examples of composers reassigning music without regard for sacrosanctity of their initial timbral conception: a concept of their work existing in a sort of to-be-colored abstract. Sure, that was the norm (we might say) for the era, but it is also an example for composers. And while it is true that the general feeling was otherwise in the Romantic era, there is no point at which we can say that it changed for all serious composers thenceforth. Brahms himself arranged the Opus 120 clarinet sonatas for viola the year after he first composed them. In the 20th c. Ravel frequently arranged his piano pieces for orchestra, in "defiance" of his original conception. And the art of arranging was a special study within Schoenberg's circle: think of Berg arranging the Adagio of his Chamber Concerto for Piano and Violin with 13 Wind Instruments for piano, violin and clarinet. The idea that after some arbitrary date, composers must be outraged at the idea of their music being sensitively arranged won't hold water.

Highly interesting conversation between a conductor and a composer whose springboard is the q. of arranging quartets for string orch.

https://www.youtube.com/v/jSUXprOxqQc
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on July 27, 2021, 06:37:01 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 27, 2021, 02:52:18 AM
Highly interesting conversation between a conductor and a composer whose springboard is the q. of arranging quartets for string orch.

https://www.youtube.com/v/jSUXprOxqQc

That was great!  And he's no slouch in the orchestration and arranging department since he was one of the assistants on Cooke's Mahler 10 performing edition.  Both he and his brother have done some wonderful orchestrations.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 27, 2021, 02:03:41 PM
I could say SO many things about this. But let's just stick with the interviewer's opening insult about how only non-musicians have any problem with arranging.

Good to know Beethoven wasn't a musician then.

Some of the discussion is interesting but it really doesn't help when you start off by being a jerk.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on July 28, 2021, 04:09:54 AM
I've been listening to Shostakovich Symphony 4 this week. As hinted at in the WAYLT thread, I am not finding it an easy ride. The first movement is just grindingly complex and it is tough to find hooks to hang my interest. No way am I giving up, but any love and pointers are always appreciated. I did read this article (attributed below) by a blogger who embarked on a revisiting of the symphonies a few years ago, which encourages me that I may not be alone in my puzzlement and wilting concentration:

'I have so far listened to the symphony four or five times. Each time, I'm dazzled all over again by Shostakovich's inventive orchestration, his ability to create compelling musical drama, and his deft cross-cuts between "high" and "low" art. In the first movement, however, at some point I get lost. Were it an Ashbery poem, I'd know just to go with it and not concern myself with trying to discern an overall shape or structure. But Shostakovich isn't Ashbery [pause for laughter]. I believe, rather, that when Shostakovich starts out, he knows where he wants to end up: he's got a plan in mind. What that plan is, however, I can't discern. This leads me to wonder, and even more so for listeners who haven't made the symphony an object of study, what they (including you, dear readers), make of it. Is there a point at which you say, I just don't get it, and I'm getting off the bus? If you keep on, what entices you onward? If you reach the symphony's finish line, do you want to come back to it again?'

https://prufrocksdilemma.wordpress.com/2016/02/29/seeking-shostakovich-revisiting-the-fourth-symphony  (https://prufrocksdilemma.wordpress.com/2016/02/29/seeking-shostakovich-revisiting-the-fourth-symphony)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 28, 2021, 04:17:13 AM
One of the toughest symphonies for me as well (and using the same recording, though I don't think that's the issue).

The only thing I can think of to say right now is that it's perhaps the nearest Shostakovich comes to Mahler.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on July 28, 2021, 05:39:08 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 28, 2021, 04:09:54 AM
I've been listening to Shostakovich Symphony 4 this week. As hinted at in the WAYLT thread, I am not finding it an easy ride. The first movement is just grindingly complex and it is tough to find hooks to hang my interest. No way am I giving up, but any love and pointers are always appreciated. I did read this article (attributed below) by a blogger who embarked on a revisiting of the symphonies a few years ago, which encourages me that I may not be alone in my puzzlement and wilting concentration:

'I have so far listened to the symphony four or five times. Each time, I'm dazzled all over again by Shostakovich's inventive orchestration, his ability to create compelling musical drama, and his deft cross-cuts between "high" and "low" art. In the first movement, however, at some point I get lost. Were it an Ashbery poem, I'd know just to go with it and not concern myself with trying to discern an overall shape or structure. But Shostakovich isn't Ashbery [pause for laughter]. I believe, rather, that when Shostakovich starts out, he knows where he wants to end up: he's got a plan in mind. What that plan is, however, I can't discern. This leads me to wonder, and even more so for listeners who haven't made the symphony an object of study, what they (including you, dear readers), make of it. Is there a point at which you say, I just don't get it, and I'm getting off the bus? If you keep on, what entices you onward? If you reach the symphony's finish line, do you want to come back to it again?'

https://prufrocksdilemma.wordpress.com/2016/02/29/seeking-shostakovich-revisiting-the-fourth-symphony  (https://prufrocksdilemma.wordpress.com/2016/02/29/seeking-shostakovich-revisiting-the-fourth-symphony)

I came to No. 4 about half way through my traversal of his symphonies which probably spanned a good ten years.  I was immediately blown away by it but it took me to the end to feel that way.  As I was experiencing it, I found it so loud and grandiose and a bit meandering.  There was a primitive (ala Stravinsky's Rite of Spring) quality to it in his ruthless vulgarity.  I could hear the Mahler connections in the quasi sardonic waltz plus funeral march that reminded me of Mahler's No. 1 slow movement.  By around 50 minutes in, nothing really connected with me other than it's big, vulgar, and not as easy to connect with as his mid symphonies. 

Then the ending...after an extended trombone solo which I thought was quite unusual in symphonic literature, there was this this calm chord in the strings but a sense of storm on the horizon.  The momentum stopped completely in it's tracks as percussion rang out into a bold climax.  What shocked me is suddenly, the tone shifted from climactic to anguish and I felt there were two simultaneous symphonies happening...one on the outside and one on the inside.  The context of the work was bold, blaring, in your face, but the subtext was despair and anguish and which was the prominent role reversed with a tam-tam smash.  I found myself devastated from the listening experience because it made me reinterpret what I had heard.  The music subsides to one of the coldest and most desolate endings I've ever heard thirty or so years later.  There is so much pent up emotion that is not expressed directly but only indirectly in the sound world of this symphony and you get a sense it takes a tremendous toll on the artist and maybe even a society.  It's a great, great symphony.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on July 28, 2021, 07:06:50 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 28, 2021, 05:39:08 AM
I came to No. 4 about half way through my traversal of his symphonies which probably spanned a good ten years.  I was immediately blown away by it but it took me to the end to feel that way.  As I was experiencing it, I found it so loud and grandiose and a bit meandering.  There was a primitive (ala Stravinsky's Rite of Spring) quality to it in his ruthless vulgarity.  I could hear the Mahler connections in the quasi sardonic waltz plus funeral march that reminded me of Mahler's No. 1 slow movement.  By around 50 minutes in, nothing really connected with me other than it's big, vulgar, and not as easy to connect with as his mid symphonies. 

Then the ending...after an extended trombone solo which I thought was quite unusual in symphonic literature, there was this this calm chord in the strings but a sense of storm on the horizon.  The momentum stopped completely in it's tracks as percussion rang out into a bold climax.  What shocked me is suddenly, the tone shifted from climactic to anguish and I felt there were two simultaneous symphonies happening...one on the outside and one on the inside.  The context of the work was bold, blaring, in your face, but the subtext was despair and anguish and which was the prominent role reversed with a tam-tam smash.  I found myself devastated from the listening experience because it made me reinterpret what I had heard.  The music subsides to one of the coldest and most desolate endings I've ever heard thirty or so years later.  There is so much pent up emotion that is not expressed directly but only indirectly in the sound world of this symphony and you get a sense it takes a tremendous toll on the artist and maybe even a society.  It's a great, great symphony.

Thank you, relm1. This is great insight not only to your experience, but to the emotional touchpoints that will hopefully emerge for me with repeated listening :). A ten year exploration through Shostakovich, getting to know them more deeply each year, is impressive and an inspiration to us beginners! I know many here have that experience, and it is kind of you to share something of your reactions to this. What a great read :D

Quote from: Madiel on July 28, 2021, 04:17:13 AM
One of the toughest symphonies for me as well (and using the same recording, though I don't think that's the issue).


Good to hear I am not isolated in seeing it as more challenging than others. I really like what I have heard of the Petrenko, and I think you are right, but I have actually swapped over to Michael Sanderling's interpretation on Sony, just to see whether a different recording makes any difference to an inexperienced listener, and for me I think it does. It could simply be that I am becoming more familiar with #4, though  :o. I'm not sure.

Repeated plays to move from seeming cacophany into comprehensible music means that I'm finding some coherent points in the first movement to catch my breath, now. After the driving forward motion of the first few minutes, punctuated with those big drums, I'm beginning to see some coherence to what is going on, rather than being faced with what seemed like a wall of dissonant instrumentalists each wandering off to who knows where. The briefest of pauses at 6:40 has been a good place to hit pause and either go back to the start, or just grab a second, before the orchestra forcefully reminds you that it is still there!

The breath-taking pace of the building percussion from around 16:45 through to around 17:30 is a real experience, picking up after the exhausting chase across the strings. It seems more intense and overwhelming in the Sanderling than the Petrenko - maybe I just have it turned up louder! :). The strings are terrifyingly intense in the Petrenko, though. I also think that, for me, the breath that the movement takes at around 19:00 as the cello steps forward into a tiny pause followed by brass fanfare and percussion is a helpful place to compose oneself (haha, no pun intended) before the final push of the movement. The wind solo leading to that tiny cuckoo and string solo, and the almost comedic gait of the bassoon (?) in the last couple of minutes is emerging as a point to hang my attention.

I can very much see how relm1 would describe this as a great symphony, but I suspect I will only learn to appreciate the hinterlands for some while yet. Greatness is sometimes difficult for the lowly to comprehend!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 28, 2021, 07:58:10 AM
Foxandpeng, your struggle with Shostakovich's 4th reminds me of my own struggle with Sibelius' 4th and 6th symphonies. These symphonies were basically impenetrable to me. I just couldn't find any access points, but then I heard the Vänskä/Lahti SO performances on BIS and this completely turned my head around --- figuratively speaking of course. ;) I'm not sure what I was missing before, but he brought these symphonies to life in such a compelling way. It's difficult to image nowadays why I had such a difficult time, but I think perhaps and this is just a guess, that you'll have to hear the right performance that gives you that lightbulb moment that I know will eventually happen. I've been a rather harsh critic of Petrenko's Shostakovich cycle as time has wore on and I think he's 'okay' and adequate, but my favorites are Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky in the 4th. My goodness do these conductors know this music and perform it with the intensity and fire it needs. They also both seem to relish the eerie moments, too. You might want to check out these two performances, although Kondrashin recorded it twice (once for Melodiya with the Moscow Philharmonic and the other for Hänssler with the Dresden Staatskapelle).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Alek Hidell on July 28, 2021, 08:01:48 PM
Myung-Whun Chung's 4th has garnered a lot of praise, too, though I haven't heard it myself.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on July 29, 2021, 12:08:06 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 28, 2021, 07:58:10 AM
Foxandpeng, your struggle with Shostakovich's 4th reminds me of my own struggle with Sibelius' 4th and 6th symphonies. These symphonies were basically impenetrable to me. I just couldn't find any access points, but then I heard the Vänskä/Lahti SO performances on BIS and this completely turned my head around --- figuratively speaking of course. ;) I'm not sure what I was missing before, but he brought these symphonies to life in such a compelling way. It's difficult to image nowadays why I had such a difficult time, but I think perhaps and this is just a guess, that you'll have to hear the right performance that gives you that lightbulb moment that I know will eventually happen. I've been a rather harsh critic of Petrenko's Shostakovich cycle as time has wore on and I think he's 'okay' and adequate, but my favorites are Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky in the 4th. My goodness do these conductors know this music and perform it with the intensity and fire it needs. They also both seem to relish the eerie moments, too. You might want to check out these two performances, although Kondrashin recorded it twice (once for Melodiya with the Moscow Philharmonic and the other for Hänssler with the Dresden Staatskapelle).

I've no doubt that you are correct. I pulled both of those last night, and will take a run at them, thank you. I think my priority is to sort the architecture of the symphony, so I can recognise and feel the sense of what is going on. I tend to acquaint myself with a work using one or two performances in that mapping stage, so once I have that down, I'll bring in the Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky 🙂

Quote from: Alek Hidell on July 28, 2021, 08:01:48 PM
Myung-Whun Chung's 4th has garnered a lot of praise, too, though I haven't heard it myself.

Noted with thanks, Alek! 😁
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on July 29, 2021, 03:14:48 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 28, 2021, 04:09:54 AM
I've been listening to Shostakovich Symphony 4 this week. As hinted at in the WAYLT thread, I am not finding it an easy ride. The first movement is just grindingly complex and it is tough to find hooks to hang my interest. No way am I giving up, but any love and pointers are always appreciated. ...

Quote from: relm1 on July 28, 2021, 05:39:08 AM
... By around 50 minutes in, nothing really connected with me other than it's big, vulgar, and not as easy to connect with as his mid symphonies. 

Then the ending ... ... There is so much pent up emotion that is not expressed directly but only indirectly in the sound world of this symphony and you get a sense it takes a tremendous toll on the artist and maybe even a society.  It's a great, great symphony.

It's a tough ask though, in the context of home listening, to sit through 50 minutes to get to the point.  If it were me (and it's many years since I listened to this symphony) I'd jump straight in at the last movement.  Different in the concert hall of course.

Shostakovich wrote so much orchestral music that is more approachable while still conveying that Dmitrian angst and irony in full measure, that I just think the 4th Symphony is a rather unfortunate choice of 'in'.  I was very lucky, as a kid of about 14, when my elder brother bought the Ormandy coupling of the 1st Symphony and the (1st) Cello Concerto, and this was my first introduction to Shostakovich (on LP of course, he bought it for the Cello music, but I was instantly drawn to the 'flip side').

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81WxJoaakUL._SS500_.jpg)
Shostakovich, Symphony 1 and Cello Concerto - Ormandy, Rostropovich

Such a lovely photo - DSCH smiles!  Some people dismiss the 1st Symphony as untypical juvenilia, but I don't see it like that at all. 
Then, it was only a few years after that when Previn's recording of the 5th Symphony was released.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71AG3USEYXL._SS500_.jpg)
Shostakovich, Symphony 5 - Previn / LSO (RCA)

I still think these three works are a great starting point - even though I wouldn't argue that the true heart of DSCH lies elsewhere in his music.  Try more modern recordings if you like, or more Russian - most conductors do a decent job of these two symphonies (although the Petrenko 5th is a bit unusual in his treatment of the Finale) - but that Rostropovich recording of the Cello Concerto is untouchable. 
From there I would move on to the 1st Violin Concerto - historic recordings by Oistrakh or modern recordings by Vengeroiv, Tetzlaff or Ibragimova are all very recommendable.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71gu2am-vBL._AC_SL1200_.jpg)
Shostakovich, Violin Concertos - Jurowski, Ibragimova
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 29, 2021, 04:31:49 AM
I love every note of the Opus 43.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on July 29, 2021, 05:33:10 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 29, 2021, 03:14:48 AM
It's a tough ask though, in the context of home listening, to sit through 50 minutes to get to the point.  If it were me (and it's many years since I listened to this symphony) I'd jump straight in at the last movement.  Different in the concert hall of course.

Just wondering, do you skip through TV shows and movies just to watch the climax?

Or flick to the end of murder mystery novels to find out who did it?

Your habit of selecting little snippets of people's posts has also led to you missing one of the important things that relm1 said: reinterpretation of what was previously heard. You cannot possibly have the experience of reinterpreting what was previously heard in a musical work when you didn't previously hear it (any more than you can pick up on how a scene in show or film deliberately alludes to an earlier moment if you skipped right past that earlier moment).

I'm not against pulling apart a musical work into smaller bits in an effort to understand it. But the notion that somehow a composer was doodling around for 50 minutes before "getting to the point" just shows a complete misunderstanding of how any art form that occurs over the passage of time / has an order of events actually works. For starters, a climax simply isn't a climax any more if you have nothing on either side of it.

PS As to your remarks about the 4th symphony not being a good starting point... it isn't foxandpeng's starting point. He/she has been listening to lots of other Shostakovich in recent times. And it isn't relm1's starting point either.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 29, 2021, 06:42:54 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 29, 2021, 12:08:06 AM
I've no doubt that you are correct. I pulled both of those last night, and will take a run at them, thank you. I think my priority is to sort the architecture of the symphony, so I can recognise and feel the sense of what is going on. I tend to acquaint myself with a work using one or two performances in that mapping stage, so once I have that down, I'll bring in the Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky 🙂

You'll find that Shostakovich messed with structure a good bit in his symphonies. Like the 6th for example. The first movement is the longest, but then it's followed by two shorter movements. It's almost like this symphony has no legs. :D The 4th is a bit unusual as well: two long first and last movements with a short movement sandwiched in-between these movements. So it doesn't have much of a torso. ;) But, as always with Shostakovich, the bigger picture is what is important and how the music comes across to the listener. Like Karl wrote, I love every note of the 4th and I think in time, you will, too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on July 29, 2021, 07:12:15 AM
For what it's worth my view of the 4th Symphony is that of a seminal work. Thanks to the "scandal" of Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk DSCH was forced into an alternative route of "response of justified criticism" of the following 5th Symphony, perhaps opening the biggest can of worms in musical history. Written in 1936 and premiered in 1961 the 4th is the one work that gives us a window on the type of music DSCH would have composed if he had been born in the West and not under the heel of the Soviet Union.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: The new erato on July 29, 2021, 07:35:30 AM
Quote from: Irons on July 29, 2021, 07:12:15 AM
For what it's worth my view of the 4th Symphony is that of a seminal work. Thanks to the "scandal" of Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk DSCH was forced into an alternative route of "response of justified criticism" of the following 5th Symphony, perhaps opening the biggest can of worms in musical history. Written in 1936 and premiered in 1961 the 4th is the one work that gives us a window on the type of music DSCH would have composed if he had been born in the West and not under the heel of the Soviet Union.
Even more important, I think it turned him into writing one of the greatest quartet cycles, and that they to some degree show what kind of music he wanted to write freed from stalinistic constraints.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on July 29, 2021, 07:38:40 AM
As usual, I'm really appreciating everyone's assistance. Even just today - Aukhawk, Madiel, Karl, MI, Irons, Erato ... personal experiences, musical and historical insights and suggestions for ways to approach this symphony are all so valuable.

As Madiel kindly suggested, I'm not coming at Shostakovich 4 with no experience at all of his music, but I know that I am very much a monk amongst abbots 0:) . We all start somewhere :)

As well as the wise advice gleaned here while I listen, I have found this to be a helpful personal reflection on Symphony 4 using Kondrashin's recording with the Moscow PO, from a defunct blog site called The Exhaustive Shostakovich (which isn't exhaustive at all, but nevertheless has some comments to mull over). I hope it is ok to link to it here - I have found it a really interesting commentary, and maybe others will find something to agree with or to measure their own thinking against.

https://exhaustiveshostakovich.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/opus-43-symphony-no-4-1936/ (https://exhaustiveshostakovich.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/opus-43-symphony-no-4-1936/)

I am enjoying repeated listens to the Sanderling/Petrenko as this works embeds. How interesting to ponder the effects of external pressure on DSCH's compositional development - not just in paths not taken, but in how his skill as an artist was shaped by the constraints, fears and cultural atmosphere of his time. Extremity no doubt honed his singular voice in ways that have brought beauty out of adversity. I think the SQs have a unique and haunting beauty that may never have been seen in quite the same way without it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: krummholz on July 29, 2021, 08:01:34 AM
I have read, and I suspect there's some truth to this, that the 4th Symphony features both the style that DSCH was developing and would have developed further in his symphonies, in the 1st movement; and the style that was actually to characterize his symphonic writing from the 5th Symphony on, in the last two movements. The 1st movement is the most "modernistic" movement, certainly in the 4th, and perhaps in all of DSCH's symphonies (though I've yet to hear the 2nd and 3rd, so am not going to insist on that). I can very much relate to Foxandpeng's difficulties with this movement as it is indeed meandering, almost stream of consciousness, and doesn't conform to any classical form... even though it has a kind of "recapitulation" toward the end, it is not recognizably in sonata form or any other classical form. And the harmonic language is much more dissonant than in most of his other symphonies. The last two movements are much more approachable than the 1st, I think, and no less impressive and moving.

But yes, having known the work for over 30 years now, I do love every note... it is a great, great symphony, and even DSCH is said to have commented that he considered it superior to the 8th.

FWIW, I have only the Jarvi reading, and first heard the work as played by Ormandy... I have not heard any of the Russian interpretations of this particular work.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 29, 2021, 08:54:30 AM
Complete tangent - Hurwitz has an ongoing survey of the individual DSCH symphonies and has just posted a talk on No.7.  As ever, his manner grates with me like nails on a blackboard BUT he says some interesting, thought provoking things and also makes some good recommendations in his "top 5" performances......
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on July 29, 2021, 12:30:03 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 29, 2021, 08:54:30 AM
Complete tangent - Hurwitz has an ongoing survey of the individual DSCH symphonies and has just posted a talk on No.7.  As ever, his manner grates with me like nails on a blackboard BUT he says some interesting, thought provoking things and also makes some good recommendations in his "top 5" performances......

Does DG Bernstein make the cut?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 29, 2021, 02:33:28 PM
Quote from: DavidW on July 29, 2021, 12:30:03 PM
Does DG Bernstein make the cut?

Oh yes - that's his No.1 choice!  The top 5 are not in order except for Bernstein;

Petrenko/RLPO
Jarvi/SNO
Temirkanov/ Leningrad PO
Berglund/ Bournemouth SO (very pleased he included this one)
Bernstein/Chicago
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 29, 2021, 02:49:17 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 29, 2021, 02:33:28 PM
Oh yes - that's his No.1 choice!  The top 5 are not in order except for Bernstein;

Petrenko/RLPO
Jarvi/SNO
Temirkanov/ Leningrad PO
Berglund/ Bournemouth SO (very pleased he included this one)
Bernstein/Chicago


The Petrenko and Temirkanov are indeed excellent.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 29, 2021, 11:13:18 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 29, 2021, 02:49:17 PM
The Petrenko and Temirkanov are indeed excellent.

To be fair that's a very good top 5 all round.  As Hurwitz said there are many other very good versions too (the usual Soviet suspects for starters) but that's a very fair starting point.  He tells a story of seeing Bernstein with Chicago playing the work live in New York with all the brass doubled and being literally deafened by the end.  That's a concert I'd like to have been at!  I saw it once at the Proms 30+ years ago - its pretty overwhelming in concert....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on July 30, 2021, 01:08:31 AM
Quote from: The new erato on July 29, 2021, 07:35:30 AM
Even more important, I think it turned him into writing one of the greatest quartet cycles, and that they to some degree show what kind of music he wanted to write freed from stalinistic constraints.

Good point and the dates support this theory. "Pure music" safer territory.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 30, 2021, 03:55:54 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 29, 2021, 11:13:18 PM
To be fair that's a very good top 5 all round.  As Hurwitz said there are many other very good versions too (the usual Soviet suspects for starters) but that's a very fair starting point.  He tells a story of seeing Bernstein with Chicago playing the work live in New York with all the brass doubled and being literally deafened by the end.  That's a concert I'd like to have been at!  I saw it once at the Proms 30+ years ago - its pretty overwhelming in concert....

I had one of those DNA-altering concert experiences when at Worcester's Mechanics Hall to hear the Mariinka play the Leningrad under Gergiev's direction. Gergiev can be hit-or-miss, but he brought his A-game to Massachusetts that day
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 30, 2021, 05:06:12 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 30, 2021, 03:55:54 AM
I had one of those DNA-altering concert experiences when at Worcester's Mechanics Hall to hear the Mariinka play the Leningrad under Gergiev's direction. Gergiev can be hit-or-miss, but he brought his A-game to Massachusetts that day

That's very interesting to read about Gergiev.  I'd have put money on his double orchestra (Marinsky + Rotterdam) recording of the Leningrad being an absolute storm - I sold it!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 30, 2021, 05:20:49 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 30, 2021, 05:06:12 AM
That's very interesting to read about Gergiev.  I'd have put money on his double orchestra (Marinsky + Rotterdam) recording of the Leningrad being an absolute storm - I sold it!

I went to this concert with a friend who knew that Mariinsky + Rotterdam recording, and while it may be a matter of being in the space with the orchestra during a live performance, Bob said that the recording paled in comparison.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 30, 2021, 06:49:01 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 29, 2021, 08:54:30 AM
Complete tangent - Hurwitz has an ongoing survey of the individual DSCH symphonies and has just posted a talk on No.7.  As ever, his manner grates with me like nails on a blackboard BUT he says some interesting, thought provoking things and also makes some good recommendations in his "top 5" performances......

Of his top choices, I only like the Bernstein. I'm surprised he didn't mentioned Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky or Svetlanov who, IMHO, smoke all of Westerners in their performances. He did say something I agree with: the Haitink LPO performance is a stinker. Slow, plodding and completely devoid of any spark. One of the rarer misfires of his, otherwise, superb cycle.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on July 30, 2021, 07:00:20 AM
Quote from: krummholz on July 29, 2021, 08:01:34 AM

But yes, having known the work for over 30 years now, I do love every note... it is a great, great symphony, and even DSCH is said to have commented that he considered it superior to the 8th

I've started reading Stephen Johnson's book, How Shostakovich Changed My Mind, where he quotes a conversation between Isaak Glikman and DSCH at the 1961 world premiere of #4:

'Under the impression of what he had just heard, he (Shostakovich) told me, 'It seems to me that in many respects, my Fourth Symphony stands much higher than my more recent ones'.

I may still only be coming to know #4 slowly, but I can feel the increasing impact of what I'm hearing.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 30, 2021, 07:19:05 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 30, 2021, 07:00:20 AM
I've started reading Stephen Johnson's book, How Shostakovich Changed My Mind, where he quotes a conversation between Isaak Glikman and DSCH at the 1961 world premiere of #4:

'Under the impression of what he had just heard, he (Shostakovich) told me, 'It seems to me that in many respects, my Fourth Symphony stands much higher than my more recent ones'.

I may still only be coming to know #4 slowly, but I can feel the increasing impact of what I'm hearing.

It may be a slow burn, but at last you'll find yourself cranking the air conditioner....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on July 30, 2021, 07:36:32 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 30, 2021, 06:49:01 AM
I'm surprised he didn't mentioned Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky or Svetlanov who, IMHO, smoke all of Westerners in their performances.

This.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: André on July 30, 2021, 08:47:56 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 30, 2021, 05:20:49 AM
I went to this concert with a friend who knew that Mariinsky + Rotterdam recording, and while it may be a matter of being in the space with the orchestra during a live performance, Bob said that the recording paled in comparison.

I have that Mariinsky-Rotterdam recording and enjoy it very much.  :-\

One of my friends said the most impressive concert he's attended is the 7th with the BRSO under Jansons. Now, while my admiration for that orchestra knows no bounds, I am often disappointed by Janson's conducting. So, as you say, being there and then is very much part and parcel of the experience.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 30, 2021, 09:40:10 AM
Quote from: André on July 30, 2021, 08:47:56 AM
I have that Mariinsky-Rotterdam recording and enjoy it very much.  :-\

Good to know!

Quote from: AndréOne of my friends said the most impressive concert he's attended is the 7th with the BRSO under Jansons. Now, while my admiration for that orchestra knows no bounds, I am often disappointed by Janson's conducting. So, as you say, being there and then is very much part and parcel of the experience.
Bien sûr  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 30, 2021, 06:48:51 PM
Long ago, I was jaded against the Leningrad. Then I went to Petersburg. I wrote concert "previews" for an English-language weekly, and as the Leningrad was on an upcoming program, it was only right that I write about it. To do so, of course I would have to listen to it in its entirety.  I went to the shop in the Grand Philharmonic Hall, and picked up a cassette of Temirkanov leading the St Petersburg Phil. At the time I still found the first movement a bit of a chore to listen to, but the middle movements got immediately right in amongst me. Nor do I suppose that I ever had any problem with the last movement. Rather later still, it was (somehow) the Ančerl recording which convinced me of the first movement. Now I do love the whole symphony unreservedly. Perhaps the key is both to disregard any 'program' in the first movement, and to take the musical process on its own terms and in its own time. And to follow the music which emerges after the last variation, and the subsequent retransition. The piece is really magnificently realized.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on July 30, 2021, 08:16:25 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 30, 2021, 06:48:51 PM
Long ago, I was jaded against the Leningrad. Then I went to Petersburg. I wrote concert "previews" for an English-language weekly, and as the Leningrad was on an upcoming program, it was only right that I write about it. To do so, of course I would have to listen to it in its entirety.  I went to the shop in the Grand Philharmonic Hall, and picked up a cassette of Temirkanov leading the St Petersburg Phil. At the time I still found the first movement a bit of a chore to listen to, but the middle movements got immediately right in amongst me. Nor do I suppose that I ever had any problem with the last movement. Rather later still, it was (somehow) the Ančerl recording which convinced me of the first movement. Now I do love the whole symphony unreservedly. Perhaps the key is both to disregard any 'program' in the first movement, and to take the musical process on its own terms and in its own time. And to follow the music which emerges after the last variation, and the subsequent retransition. The piece is really magnificently realized.

Interesting to read, Karl. I, too, didn't take to the Leningrad all that much when I first heard it. In fact, it took me quite some time to appreciate, but, while I still find the first movement problematic in many respects, it is the Adagio that makes this symphony for me. This is a devastating movement full of despair, yearning, but it's also by turns quite violent. The second and finale are also quite fine. The first performance of this symphony that hit me like a ton of bricks was the Rozhdestvensky. Despite its less than ideal sonics (I'm still crossing my fingers that Melodiya get around to remastering this set), it still packs an emotional punch, but more importantly, it affected me. It's become one of my favorite symphonies and it's always a wondrous thing when opinions can change on works that have had less of an impact on us early on.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on July 31, 2021, 02:49:48 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 30, 2021, 06:48:51 PM
Long ago, I was jaded against the Leningrad. Then I went to Petersburg. I wrote concert "previews" for an English-language weekly, and as the Leningrad was on an upcoming program, it was only right that I write about it. To do so, of course I would have to listen to it in its entirety.  I went to the shop in the Grand Philharmonic Hall, and picked up a cassette of Temirkanov leading the St Petersburg Phil. At the time I still found the first movement a bit of a chore to listen to, but the middle movements got immediately right in amongst me. Nor do I suppose that I ever had any problem with the last movement. Rather later still, it was (somehow) the Ančerl recording which convinced me of the first movement. Now I do love the whole symphony unreservedly. Perhaps the key is both to disregard any 'program' in the first movement, and to take the musical process on its own terms and in its own time. And to follow the music which emerges after the last variation, and the subsequent retransition. The piece is really magnificently realized.

Until recently, symphonies 7, 5 and 10 have been the only DSCH symphonies with which I can claim to have any real familiarity, and probably not to any level of depth - hence the Shostakovichathon on which I've now embarked. Unlike yourself and MI, the #7 opening movement is the one I found easiest and most enjoyable, possibly because of the repetitive martial theme and accessibility of that section. I hope to dig into the emotion of the adagio mentioned by MI over the next few days.

Reading about the harrowing conditions of the Leningrad siege, the dire circumstances of intense cold, queues for soup made from book binding glue, and DSCH composing by candlelight before the symphony performance by weakened musicians, has been deeply affecting. I'm staying with Petrenko and Sanderling (which I am enjoying, despite his lack of cheerleaders) for now, until the works become familiar enough to shift horses.

Weekday SQs in the background at a couple each day to embed them with Mandelring continues really profitably.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 31, 2021, 06:51:16 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 31, 2021, 02:49:48 AM
Until recently, symphonies 7, 5 and 10 have been the only DSCH symphonies with which I can claim to have any real familiarity, and probably not to any level of depth - hence the Shostakovichathon on which I've now embarked. Unlike yourself and MI, the #7 opening movement is the one I found easiest and most enjoyable, possibly because of the repetitive martial theme and accessibility of that section. I hope to dig into the emotion of the adagio mentioned by MI over the next few days.

Yes, that's the flip side of the coin: Shostakovich wrote this movement while working to save the city he loved from the barbarian assault, and wrote it for his fellow Петербуржцы (Petersburgers) The straightforwadness of that section is the point, not a flaw.

Quote from: foxandpengReading about the harrowing conditions of the Leningrad siege, the dire circumstances of intense cold, queues for soup made from book binding glue, and DSCH composing by candlelight before the symphony performance by weakened musicians, has been deeply affecting. I'm staying with Petrenko and Sanderling (which I am enjoying, despite his lack of cheerleaders) for now, until the works become familiar enough to shift horses.

Weekday SQs in the background at a couple each day to embed them with Mandelring continues really profitably.


Nice, I don't think I know Sanderling's Leningrad.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 01, 2021, 01:30:13 AM
My introduction to Shostakovich's 'Leningrad Symphony' was Ancerl's LP (below). I've always liked the work very much:
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 01, 2021, 01:35:18 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 31, 2021, 02:49:48 AM
Until recently, symphonies 7, 5 and 10 have been the only DSCH symphonies with which I can claim to have any real familiarity, and probably not to any level of depth - hence the Shostakovichathon on which I've now embarked. Unlike yourself and MI, the #7 opening movement is the one I found easiest and most enjoyable, possibly because of the repetitive martial theme and accessibility of that section. I hope to dig into the emotion of the adagio mentioned by MI over the next few days.

Reading about the harrowing conditions of the Leningrad siege, the dire circumstances of intense cold, queues for soup made from book binding glue, and DSCH composing by candlelight before the symphony performance by weakened musicians, has been deeply affecting. I'm staying with Petrenko and Sanderling (which I am enjoying, despite his lack of cheerleaders) for now, until the works become familiar enough to shift horses.

Weekday SQs in the background at a couple each day to embed them with Mandelring continues really profitably.

I want to hear the Sanderling cycle (son Thomas I assume - not the few symphonies recorded by by father Kurt).  My sense was they had been well-received - I can't justify another set!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: André on August 01, 2021, 08:12:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 01, 2021, 01:30:13 AM
My introduction to Shostakovich's 'Leningrad Symphony' was Ancerl's LP (below). I've always liked the work very much:
(//)

Mine was through Svetlanov, on LP. It's now part of the Scribendum Svetlanov box. It still floored me when I heard the cd a couple of months ago and is still my benchmark. I also love the Rozhdestvensky and Gergiev versions. Temirkanov is also quite good, but smoother. Berglund is fine too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on August 01, 2021, 12:46:17 PM
I watched the recent Hurwitz Youtube video yesterday partially analysing Symphony #7 and partially recommending the best Leningrad recording, and I actually really quite enjoyed it.

His structural analysis made positive viewing, but I wasn't wholly persuaded as to his view of the composer's purpose. I'm about to read Volkov and Fay, but I suspect certainty is an impossible illusion.

Thomas Sanderling isn't one of his recs, but I really like the cycle. I'm told you can't have too many, RS 🙂 (even though I'm happy with the two I'm hearing for now)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 01, 2021, 01:10:36 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on August 01, 2021, 12:46:17 PM
I watched the recent Hurwitz Youtube video yesterday partially analysing Symphony #7 and partially recommending the best Leningrad recording, and I actually really quite enjoyed it.

His structural analysis made positive viewing, but I wasn't wholly persuaded as to his view of the composer's purpose. I'm about to read Volkov and Fay, but I suspect certainty is an impossible illusion.

Thomas Sanderling isn't one of his recs, but I really like the cycle. I'm told you can't have too many, RS 🙂 (even though I'm happy with the two I'm hearing for now)

The Fay is an excellent book and well worth the read, but she doesn't analyze any of the music, as such. The Volkov is a good read, but needs to be taken with several grains of salt. One phrase from the Volkov about the Leningrad, which one might wish to be authentic (so to say) is to the effect that the first movement is about "the city which Stalin destroyed and which Hitler merely finished off." My (purely personal and obviously non-authoritative) take is to consider that not authentic Shostakovich--it was his sacrificial labor of love to work as a fireman to save Leningrad from destruction, and I don't see such a man cavalierly dismissing the city as "finished off."
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on August 01, 2021, 06:42:00 PM
All of this talk in the Leningrad, it reminds that I haven't finished this book:

[asin]0763691003[/asin]
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 02, 2021, 12:46:50 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on August 01, 2021, 12:46:17 PM
I watched the recent Hurwitz Youtube video yesterday partially analysing Symphony #7 and partially recommending the best Leningrad recording, and I actually really quite enjoyed it.

His structural analysis made positive viewing, but I wasn't wholly persuaded as to his view of the composer's purpose. I'm about to read Volkov and Fay, but I suspect certainty is an impossible illusion.

Thomas Sanderling isn't one of his recs, but I really like the cycle. I'm told you can't have too many, RS 🙂 (even though I'm happy with the two I'm hearing for now)
I'd recommend the Elizabeth Wilson book as the best one I know about Shostakovich (there is a newer edition than the one featured below). I saw her deliver a lecture about him (she was one of his students I think) in Cambridge some years ago:
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on August 02, 2021, 01:31:34 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 01, 2021, 01:10:36 PM
The Fay is an excellent book and well worth the read, but she doesn't analyze any of the music, as such. The Volkov is a good read, but needs to be taken with several grains of salt. One phrase from the Volkov about the Leningrad, which one might wish to be authentic (so to say) is to the effect that the first movement is about "the city which Stalin destroyed and which Hitler merely finished off." My (purely personal and obviously non-authoritative) take is to consider that not authentic Shostakovich--it was his sacrificial labor of love to work as a fireman to save Leningrad from destruction, and I don't see such a man cavalierly dismissing the city as "finished off."

Ah, thank you. I'm starting with the Volkov as I have it on the shelf, whereas the Fay is still in Jeff B's enormous warehouse. A bit like your helpful quote there, I was helped by Stephen Johnson's reminiscence of his interpreter Misha while researching his DSCH BBC documentary:

'When two men are beating you up, you're maybe not too bothered about which one is hurting you most. You just want it to stop.'

Quote from: vandermolen on August 02, 2021, 12:46:50 AM
I'd recommend the Elizabeth Wilson book as the best one I know about Shostakovich (there is a newer edition than the one featured below). I saw her deliver a lecture about him (she was one of his students I think) in Cambridge some years ago:
(//)

Thanks, Jeffrey! Definitely added to the list 😁
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: amw on August 02, 2021, 03:01:14 AM
This debate has been had before, but in short, Volkov attributed a large number of quotes to Shostakovich when there is in fact no proof Shostakovich ever said those things, and did so largely in service of a particular interpretation of the music. This makes him about as reliable as e.g. Schindler with Beethoven or Alma Mahler with Gustav. If the book had been published as "Shostakovich as remembered by Solomon Volkov" or some similar, more anecdotal, presentation, there would be no academic debate about the book, but it also likely would never have sold so many copies. It is still useful as considered in the context of Shostakovich's reception by history.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 02, 2021, 05:20:11 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 01, 2021, 06:42:00 PM
All of this talk in the Leningrad, it reminds that I haven't finished this book:


Image /unavailable ... Symphony for the City of the Dead: Dmitri Shostakovich and the Siege of Leningrad Paperback – Illustrated, February 7, 2017
by M.T. Anderson  (Author)

Some time ago I started (and I should get back to ....)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 02, 2021, 05:20:37 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 02, 2021, 12:46:50 AM
I'd recommend the Elizabeth Wilson book as the best one I know about Shostakovich (there is a newer edition than the one featured below). I saw her deliver a lecture about him (she was one of his students I think) in Cambridge some years ago:
(//)

Excellent book, too!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 02, 2021, 05:22:28 AM
Quote from: amw on August 02, 2021, 03:01:14 AM
This debate has been had before, but in short, Volkov attributed a large number of quotes to Shostakovich when there is in fact no proof Shostakovich ever said those things, and did so largely in service of a particular interpretation of the music. This makes him about as reliable as e.g. Schindler with Beethoven or Alma Mahler with Gustav. If the book had been published as "Shostakovich as remembered by Solomon Volkov" or some similar, more anecdotal, presentation, there would be no academic debate about the book, but it also likely would never have sold so many copies. It is still useful as considered in the context of Shostakovich's reception by history.

Indeed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on August 07, 2021, 12:37:16 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 02, 2021, 12:46:50 AM
I'd recommend the Elizabeth Wilson book as the best one I know about Shostakovich (there is a newer edition than the one featured below). I saw her deliver a lecture about him (she was one of his students I think) in Cambridge some years ago:
(//)

Wilson lived in the USSR for a period. She was a pupil for cello, along with Jacqueline du Prè, under Rostropovich. A brilliant writer, as well as Shostakovich, she wrote books on both Rostropovich and Du Prè. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: MusicTurner on August 07, 2021, 02:17:21 AM
It's been many years since I read Volkov. But still, in relation to him, it's worth mentioning that several of Shostakovich's close acquaintances initially confirmed the general views presented in the book. The problem is that Volkov seems to have collected his material through a lot of contextual anecdotes etc., rather than through verified conversations with Shosty himself, making his book not usable as a definite, direct 'proof' of those views, and that it may therefore be incorrect at times.

Yet, the satirical, secret chamber cantata 'Rayok' is a definite proof of Shosty's critique of at least parts of the Soviet system, and Stalin himself.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on August 07, 2021, 02:28:04 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on August 07, 2021, 02:17:21 AM
Yet, the satirical, secret chamber cantata 'Rayok' is a definite proof of Shosty's critique of at least parts of the Soviet system, and Stalin himself.

Yes, the "Antiformalistic Rayok" is really quite something. I have it on this album:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/717A-ol%2BFaL._SX425_.jpg)

And it's clear that Shostakovich is not a fan of the people he is parodying.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 16, 2021, 09:35:07 AM
For no particular reason I was wandering around on Amazon looking at complete DSCH cycles.  A crazy couple of bargains (both of which I have bought at much higher prices....!)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shostakovich-Symphonies-D/dp/B001GZ011Q/ref=sr_1_19?crid=37UMP7ADO26VG&dchild=1&keywords=rostropovich+shostakovich&qid=1631813547&sprefix=rostro%2Caps%2C166&sr=8-19

Kitajenko's impressive cycle from Cologne - complete and in good SACD sound for under £13.00(!) + p&p

or

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shostakovich-Complete-Symphonies-Dmitry/dp/B00005UW2B/ref=sr_1_41?crid=37UMP7ADO26VG&dchild=1&keywords=rostropovich+shostakovich&qid=1631813622&sprefix=rostro%2Caps%2C166&sr=8-41

the very good Barshai cycle from under £10.00 + p&p

Happy days for the new DSCH collector!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 17, 2021, 08:41:19 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 16, 2021, 09:35:07 AM
For no particular reason I was wandering around on Amazon looking at complete DSCH cycles.  A crazy couple of bargains (both of which I have bought at much higher prices....!)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shostakovich-Symphonies-D/dp/B001GZ011Q/ref=sr_1_19?crid=37UMP7ADO26VG&dchild=1&keywords=rostropovich+shostakovich&qid=1631813547&sprefix=rostro%2Caps%2C166&sr=8-19

Kitajenko's impressive cycle from Cologne - complete and in good SACD sound for under £13.00(!) + p&p

or

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shostakovich-Complete-Symphonies-Dmitry/dp/B00005UW2B/ref=sr_1_41?crid=37UMP7ADO26VG&dchild=1&keywords=rostropovich+shostakovich&qid=1631813622&sprefix=rostro%2Caps%2C166&sr=8-41

the very good Barshai cycle from under £10.00 + p&p

Happy days for the new DSCH collector!
I recently bought the Kitajenko cycle which is very good - I already had the Barshai (but not for £10.00  :o)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on September 17, 2021, 11:00:58 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 17, 2021, 08:41:19 AM
I already had the Barshai (but not for £10.00  :o)

Yeah, it cost me nearly $20 US!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 17, 2021, 01:36:13 PM
Eight years ago I got the mp3 album of the Barshai for nine clams
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: staxomega on September 17, 2021, 02:06:03 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 17, 2021, 01:36:13 PM
Eight years ago I got the mp3 album of the Barshai for nine clams

Good deal, that would barely get you a good clam chowder in Boston these days  :laugh:
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 17, 2021, 02:16:34 PM
Quote from: hvbias on September 17, 2021, 02:06:03 PM
Good deal, that would barely get you a good clam chowder in Boston these days  :laugh:

True!

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 18, 2021, 07:38:07 PM
This is just me reminiscing a bit, but I remember the first-time I heard any of Shostakovich's music, it was his 11th symphony and to be honest, it scared the hell out of me! It sounded so stark and menacing. This was around 2008, so I was a newbie to classical music, but I was interested enough in the music that I ended up buying the Haitink symphony set on Decca. This is still one of the best purchases I've ever made even if I don't consider Haitink's cycle an all out success, but this can be said of all of the symphony cycles. Anyway, I'm not sure why I'm sharing this, but carry on! :P
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on September 18, 2021, 08:03:52 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 18, 2021, 07:38:07 PM
This is just me reminiscing a bit, but I remember the first-time I heard any of Shostakovich's music, it was his 11th symphony and to be honest, it scared the hell out of me! It sounded so stark and menacing. This was around 2008, so I was a newbie to classical music, but I was interested enough in the music that I ended up buying the Haitink symphony set on Decca. This is still one of the best purchases I've ever made even if I don't consider Haitink's cycle an all out success, but this can be said of all of the symphony cycles. Anyway, I'm not sure why I'm sharing this, but carry on! :P

I am sure about it. Because this composer and, most importantly, his music, resonates with you quite deeply.  ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 18, 2021, 09:22:06 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 18, 2021, 08:03:52 PM
I am sure about it. Because this composer and, most importantly, his music, resonates with you quite deeply.  ;)

I suppose that's true! :D Shostakovich was one of the only composers that has brought tears to my ears, so I suppose that's saying something!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on September 19, 2021, 05:58:26 AM
My first encounter with Shostakovich was No. 5.  It was a record I rented from the library after being out of music choices and being a kid, I could only go to the library which I was lucky to have across the street.  It was incredibly powerful to me, having heard nothing like that before.  The first one of his works I heard live in performance, was my uni orchestra playing an absolutely electrifying performance of No. 11.  I was very familiar with the work from it's frequent use in Carl Sagan's Cosmos miniseries and my cassette tape of the Houston Symphony/Stokowski performance which I adored, but hearing it live is a whole new experience.  I even remember the conductor, Timothy Muffitt, who years later, I reached out to and mentioned what an impression that interpretation made on me.  I've since heard it live by some of the best orchestras and conductors but nothing impacted me quite like that electrifying live performance.   
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 19, 2021, 06:34:36 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 19, 2021, 05:58:26 AM
My first encounter with Shostakovich was No. 5.  It was a record I rented from the library after being out of music choices and being a kid, I could only go to the library which I was lucky to have across the street.  It was incredibly powerful to me, having heard nothing like that before.  The first one of his works I heard live in performance, was my uni orchestra playing an absolutely electrifying performance of No. 11.  I was very familiar with the work from it's frequent use in Carl Sagan's Cosmos miniseries and my cassette tape of the Houston Symphony/Stokowski performance which I adored, but hearing it live is a whole new experience.  I even remember the conductor, Timothy Muffitt, who years later, I reached out to and mentioned what an impression that interpretation made on me.  I've since heard it live by some of the best orchestras and conductors but nothing impacted me quite like that electrifying live performance.

What a lovely experience. Thanks for sharing. I never heard Shostakovich in concert, but I hope to be able to someday.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: André on September 19, 2021, 11:05:11 AM
The Montreal Symphony is programming nos 5, 9 and 15 this season. None of the concerts they appear in couples it with another work I'm interested in, so I hesitate. Maybe I'll go for the 15th (w. the Schumann PC).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: staxomega on September 19, 2021, 02:17:31 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 18, 2021, 07:38:07 PM
This is just me reminiscing a bit, but I remember the first-time I heard any of Shostakovich's music, it was his 11th symphony and to be honest, it scared the hell out of me! It sounded so stark and menacing. This was around 2008, so I was a newbie to classical music, but I was interested enough in the music that I ended up buying the Haitink symphony set on Decca. This is still one of the best purchases I've ever made even if I don't consider Haitink's cycle an all out success, but this can be said of all of the symphony cycles. Anyway, I'm not sure why I'm sharing this, but carry on! :P

That's funny, your earliest cycle was Haitink and my latest cycle is Haitink  ;D My first cycle was the early (first?) edition BMG/Melodiya box set of Kondrashin. That was also my earliest introduction to Soviet music and those performances really paint an image of the turmoil of Soviet Russia.

Piano and chamber music comprised the vast majority of my listening for a long stretch when I was living in apartments so I mostly stuck with what I had instead of exploring performances that would have been new to me. For the last several years I've been catching up with all the good stuff I missed. The most recent one where I listened to a good amount was Michael Sanderling's, I was trying to convince myself to buy it, but as well played as it was it just wasn't idiomatic Shostakovich. And having all the other great cycles it was hard to justify.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 19, 2021, 08:23:11 PM
Quote from: hvbias on September 19, 2021, 02:17:31 PM
That's funny, your earliest cycle was Haitink and my latest cycle is Haitink  ;D My first cycle was the early (first?) edition BMG/Melodiya box set of Kondrashin. That was also my earliest introduction to Soviet music and those performances really paint an image of the turmoil of Soviet Russia.

Piano and chamber music comprised the vast majority of my listening for a long stretch when I was living in apartments so I mostly stuck with what I had instead of exploring performances that would have been new to me. For the last several years I've been catching up with all the good stuff I missed. The most recent one where I listened to a good amount was Michael Sanderling's, I was trying to convince myself to buy it, but as well played as it was it just wasn't idiomatic Shostakovich. And having all the other great cycles it was hard to justify.

Hah! That's quite interesting. I kind of wish I imprinted on Kondrashin's performances, because when I finally bought his cycle many years ago, the performances just felt right to my ears. Not saying that Haitink isn't convincing in his own special way, but there's something so infectious about those Soviet performances that I can't stop listening to them. Granted, the fidelity of these Kondrashin or even the digital recordings of Rozhdestvensky aren't the best, but there's a certain spirit in these performances that can't be topped. As for the piano and chamber music, Shostakovich delivered the goods in these departments, too. ;) As for Michael Sanderling, yeah, I don't know he just didn't really interest me. His father, on the other hand, was a fantastic Shostakovich conductor and if you haven't listened to his recordings on Berlin Classics, then do check those out.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 20, 2021, 06:27:33 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 19, 2021, 08:23:11 PM
His father, on the other hand, was a fantastic Shostakovich conductor and if you haven't listened to his recordings on Berlin Classics, then do check those out.

I'll second this, John, I have the 5th, 8th, 10th and 15th from older Sanderling and Co. on Berlin Classics and they are all solid. He also did No. 15 with the Cleveland Orch. on Erato.

P.S. Check out older Sanderling's Brahms too, also solid.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 20, 2021, 07:09:13 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 20, 2021, 06:27:33 AM
I'll second this, John, I have the 5th, 8th, 10th and 15th from older Sanderling and Co. on Berlin Classics and they are all solid. He also did No. 15 with the Cleveland Orch. on Erato.

P.S. Check out older Sanderling's Brahms too, also solid.

I can only nod my head along with your own with the exception of Brahms who is a composer I'm not too fond of in general.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on September 25, 2021, 06:35:32 PM
Once again the Violin Concerto No. 1 manages to astound me. It strikes me like a genuine masterpiece in any standard. Wow, all the movements are eloquently and uniformly brilliant in conception and technique, mastery. Mordkovitch is on fire along with Järvi and the Scottish N. O.

What are your other favorite recordings on this unique creation?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 25, 2021, 08:29:19 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 25, 2021, 06:35:32 PM
Once again the Violin Concerto No. 1 manages to astound me. It strikes me like a genuine masterpiece in any standard. Wow, all the movements are eloquently and uniformly brilliant in conception and technique, mastery. Mordkovitch is on fire along with Järvi and the Scottish N. O.

What are your other favorite recordings on this unique creation?

It is an incredible concerto without question, Cesar. I love it dearly. It is one of the only works that I've listened to that actually had me in tears. Favorite performances? Certainly that Mordkovitch/Järvi recording you were listening to, but also Batiashvili/Salonen, Vengerov/Rostropovich and, more recently, Ibragimova/Jurowski, which, interestingly enough, wasn't a performance that won me over when I first heard it. I've heard many other performances, but none of them quite hit the mark like the afore mentioned ones have for me.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on September 25, 2021, 10:41:27 PM
I've listened to a lot of Shostakovich in the last week or so. I'm currently listening to the 10th Symphony, and when I finish I'll have just No. 7 left to complete the cycle.

I noticed there isn't really a slow movement in No. 10. The first movement probably comes closest in mood but even then it's marked Moderato. There is also the lengthy slow introduction to the finale but that's not a full movement in its own right.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on September 26, 2021, 03:29:45 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 25, 2021, 06:35:32 PM
Once again the Violin Concerto No. 1 manages to astound me. It strikes me like a genuine masterpiece in any standard. Wow, all the movements are eloquently and uniformly brilliant in conception and technique, mastery. Mordkovitch is on fire along with Järvi and the Scottish N. O.

What are your other favorite recordings on this unique creation?

My favourite violin concerto of any composer.

That is indeed a great recording, along with Mullova/Previn.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 26, 2021, 06:44:28 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on September 25, 2021, 10:41:27 PM
I've listened to a lot of Shostakovich in the last week or so. I'm currently listening to the 10th Symphony, and when I finish I'll have just No. 7 left to complete the cycle.

I noticed there isn't really a slow movement in No. 10. The first movement probably comes closest in mood but even then it's marked Moderato. There is also the lengthy slow introduction to the finale but that's not a full movement in its own right.

Saved the best for last, eh? ;) But seriously, the 7th is dozy of a symphony, but under the right baton, it is an extraordinary work. As for the 10th lacking a slow movement, as you pointed out, there are plenty of sections throughout the symphony that could be slow movements.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 26, 2021, 07:44:32 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on September 26, 2021, 03:29:45 AM
My favourite violin concerto of any composer.

That is indeed a great recording, along with Mullova/Previn.

I never could get into the Mullova/Previn performance of this concerto. Their performance of the Passacaglia is played at such a fast clip that it loses it's emotional pull, IMHO. Mullova is no doubt an amazing violinist and Previn knows his Shostakovich, but I found a disconnect between the two. Anyway, just my two measly cents.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 27, 2021, 09:18:16 AM
I'm sure I've posted these videos before, but I'll post them again:

https://www.youtube.com/v/K7MPc9M5Jo0

https://www.youtube.com/v/FVfz5YymsXI

Man, I miss Lenny. Such an articulate and passionate speaker he was and there's little doubt in my mind how much he loved this music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on September 27, 2021, 02:37:34 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 25, 2021, 08:29:19 PM
It is an incredible concerto without question, Cesar. I love it dearly. It is one of the only works that I've listened to that actually had me in tears. Favorite performances? Certainly that Mordkovitch/Järvi recording you were listening to, but also Batiashvili/Salonen, Vengerov/Rostropovich and, more recently, Ibragimova/Jurowski, which, interestingly enough, wasn't a performance that won me over when I first heard it. I've heard many other performances, but none of them quite hit the mark like the afore mentioned ones have for me.

Thanks for the reply, John. I also have Vengerov/Rostropovich in high esteem. The other recordings are still unknown to me, but I don't doubt they're splendid in their own ways.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 27, 2021, 03:13:22 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 27, 2021, 02:37:34 PM
Thanks for the reply, John. I also have Vengerov/Rostropovich in high esteem. The other recordings are still unknown to me, but I don't doubt they're splendid in their own ways.

What do you think of his 2nd VC? This was a tougher nut to crack, but I find it rather rewarding now.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on September 27, 2021, 03:45:28 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on September 26, 2021, 03:29:45 AM
My favourite violin concerto of any composer.

That is indeed a great recording, along with Mullova/Previn.

Certainly mine too! It's astounding in every way!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on September 27, 2021, 03:46:29 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 27, 2021, 03:13:22 PM
What do you think of his 2nd VC? This was a tougher nut to crack, but I find it rather rewarding now.

It hasn't clicked on me yet, John. It left me somewhat cold the last time I heard it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 27, 2021, 04:39:06 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 27, 2021, 03:46:29 PM
It hasn't clicked on me yet, John. It left me somewhat cold the last time I heard it.

I find it spooky and rather creepy, which is typical wonderful late period Shostakovich. :) Maybe one day you'll come around to it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on September 27, 2021, 06:11:44 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 27, 2021, 04:39:06 PM
I find it spooky and rather creepy, which is typical wonderful late period Shostakovich. :) Maybe one day you'll come around to it.

I hope so!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on September 27, 2021, 11:54:10 PM
A legendary premiere recording of the first concerto. Much later in life Oistrakh recorded the 2nd which is surprisingly a lacklustre performance.

(https://i.imgur.com/2nxoxlF.jpg)

Odd that the two great Shostakovich string concerto premiere recordings by legendary Russian performers, Oistrakh and Rostropovich, were both with American orchestras.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on September 29, 2021, 05:40:39 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 27, 2021, 03:13:22 PM
What do you think of his 2nd VC? This was a tougher nut to crack, but I find it rather rewarding now.
+1
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 29, 2021, 09:48:27 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 27, 2021, 09:18:16 AM
I'm sure I've posted these videos before, but I'll post them again:

https://www.youtube.com/v/K7MPc9M5Jo0

https://www.youtube.com/v/FVfz5YymsXI

Man, I miss Lenny. Such an articulate and passionate speaker he was and there's little doubt in my mind how much he loved this music.
Thank you for posting those John.  I just watched the one on Symphony No. 6...very interesting and informative!

Pd
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 29, 2021, 11:21:48 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 29, 2021, 09:48:27 AM
Thank you for posting those John.  I just watched the one on Symphony No. 6...very interesting and informative!

Pd

Glad you enjoyed it, PD. 8) Besides being an outstanding conductor and superb composer, Lenny was such an eloquent speaker. He was able to articulate his thoughts incredibly well and get them across is such an accessible way. There will never be another like him.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 29, 2021, 12:53:19 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 29, 2021, 11:21:48 AM
Glad you enjoyed it, PD. 8) Besides being an outstanding conductor and superb composer, Lenny was such an eloquent speaker. He was able to articulate his thoughts incredibly well and get them across is such an accessible way. There will never be another like him.
I knew that he had been involved in terms of areas like trying to introduce and explain music to young people, but it was also neat to see that he tried to help adults learn about and appreciate music to such a degree.  :)

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 29, 2021, 01:01:16 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 29, 2021, 12:53:19 PM
I knew that he had been involved in terms of areas like trying to introduce and explain music to young people, but it was also neat to see that he tried to help adults learn about and appreciate music to such a degree.  :)

PD

Indeed. I can heartily recommend his Harvard lectures. Do check these out if you haven't already.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on September 29, 2021, 02:40:19 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 27, 2021, 02:37:34 PM
Thanks for the reply, John. I also have Vengerov/Rostropovich in high esteem. The other recordings are still unknown to me, but I don't doubt they're splendid in their own ways.

The best performance I've heard of it was Vengerov live with the New York Philharmonic. Strangely, I don't remember who conducted.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 29, 2021, 04:58:32 PM
Quote from: BasilValentine on September 29, 2021, 02:40:19 PM
The best performance I've heard of it was Vengerov live with the New York Philharmonic. Strangely, I don't remember who conducted.

What year was the performance?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on September 29, 2021, 05:51:53 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 27, 2021, 09:18:16 AM
I'm sure I've posted these videos before, but I'll post them again:

https://www.youtube.com/v/K7MPc9M5Jo0

https://www.youtube.com/v/FVfz5YymsXI

Man, I miss Lenny. Such an articulate and passionate speaker he was and there's little doubt in my mind how much he loved this music.

Thanks for the refresh, John. very much enjoyed them, as I knew I should.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 29, 2021, 06:30:11 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 29, 2021, 05:51:53 PM
Thanks for the refresh, John. very much enjoyed them, as I knew I should.

My pleasure, Karl. 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on September 30, 2021, 05:31:29 AM
Thanks for sharing that John. I listened to Bernstein's talk on Shostakovich's 6th symphony along Hurwitz's review of his favourite 6th recordings. It really is a great symphony, along with the 9th, which are both vastly over shadowed by any of the other symphonies between 4th and 11th.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on September 30, 2021, 06:18:45 AM
Speaking of the 6th symphony, what would be folks' recommendations on the performance that has the bleakest, blackest, darkest, hopeless Adagio 1st movement?  :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on September 30, 2021, 06:31:01 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on September 30, 2021, 05:31:29 AM
Thanks for sharing that John. I listened to Bernstein's talk on Shostakovich's 6th symphony along Hurwitz's review of his favourite 6th recordings. It really is a great symphony, along with the 9th, which are both vastly over shadowed by any of the other symphonies between 4th and 11th.

Glad you enjoyed them, Ray. Yeah, I think both the 6th and 9th are fine symphonies. Great stuff.

Quote from: OrchestralNut on September 30, 2021, 06:18:45 AM
Speaking of the 6th symphony, what would be folks' recommendations on the performance that has the bleakest, blackest, darkest, hopeless Adagio 1st movement?  :D

Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky certainly qualify here I would think. Mravinsky's 6th isn't exactly sunshine either. ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 30, 2021, 02:41:36 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on September 30, 2021, 06:18:45 AM
Speaking of the 6th symphony, what would be folks' recommendations on the performance that has the bleakest, blackest, darkest, hopeless Adagio 1st movement?  :D

The first movement is a Largo...Hurwitz got it wrong. Sanderling and Caetani are really dark.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on September 30, 2021, 04:19:36 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on September 30, 2021, 06:18:45 AM
Speaking of the 6th symphony, what would be folks' recommendations on the performance that has the bleakest, blackest, darkest, hopeless Adagio 1st movement?  :D

I thought the Bernstein DG was the darkest but in retrospect, it might be the most romantic given Serge's remarks.  I'll have to explore those others that are really dark.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roy Bland on October 02, 2021, 05:48:02 PM
I love it immensely great performance of Belarus RTV orchestra

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xp7f_hnEPo
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 03, 2021, 01:03:34 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on September 30, 2021, 06:18:45 AM
Speaking of the 6th symphony, what would be folks' recommendations on the performance that has the bleakest, blackest, darkest, hopeless Adagio 1st movement?  :D
I liked Neeme Jarvi's recording.
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 05, 2021, 01:44:28 PM
This documentary is definitely worth a viewing:

https://www.youtube.com/v/KOkBEqtGUI8

I'll be getting my popcorn ready for tonight as I plan to watch it. A BBC production. Looks like a good one.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on October 05, 2021, 05:11:49 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 05, 2021, 01:44:28 PM
This documentary is definitely worth a viewing:

https://www.youtube.com/v/KOkBEqtGUI8

I'll be getting my popcorn ready for tonight as I plan to watch it. A BBC production. Looks like a good one.

Something like that?

(https://www.laguiadelvaron.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/obecom.gif)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 05, 2021, 05:13:28 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 05, 2021, 05:11:49 PM
Something like that?

(https://www.laguiadelvaron.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/obecom.gif)

Ummm....

Ummmmmmmm........ ??? :blank: :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 05, 2021, 05:13:50 PM
Have you seen this documentary, Cesar?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on October 05, 2021, 05:19:04 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 05, 2021, 05:13:50 PM
Have you seen this documentary, Cesar?

Not yet, John, but it certainly looks enticing. How many secrets did Shostakovich bring with him to death?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 05, 2021, 05:36:28 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 05, 2021, 05:19:04 PM
Not yet, John, but it certainly looks enticing. How many secrets did Shostakovich bring with him to death?

We'll never know, but if his music is any indication, there were no secrets. :) It's all in the music.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 06, 2021, 05:41:24 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/e3RbWSfhlp4
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 06, 2021, 07:06:12 PM
That's a good documentary, Karl. I've got it on DVD. 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 07, 2021, 08:23:34 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 06, 2021, 07:06:12 PM
That's a good documentary, Karl. I've got it on DVD. 8)

I've been meaning forever to watch this series.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on October 07, 2021, 08:27:32 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 07, 2021, 08:23:34 AM
I've been meaning forever to watch this series.

It is such a great series Karl.  Although I haven't seen all episodes.  I wish MTT would reboot the series with some new episodes.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 07, 2021, 10:55:45 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 05, 2021, 01:44:28 PM
This documentary is definitely worth a viewing:

https://www.youtube.com/v/KOkBEqtGUI8

I'll be getting my popcorn ready for tonight as I plan to watch it. A BBC production. Looks like a good one.

Excellent.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 07, 2021, 11:05:27 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 07, 2021, 10:55:45 AM
Excellent.

I enjoyed the documentary, but some of the details could've been left out. I think any one with a knowledge of history can read about how horrible the whole Siege of Leningrad was, but the musical aspect of the film was the most enjoyable.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DaveF on October 07, 2021, 11:06:40 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on September 30, 2021, 06:18:45 AM
Speaking of the 6th symphony, what would be folks' recommendations on the performance that has the bleakest, blackest, darkest, hopeless Adagio 1st movement?  :D

Petrenko on Naxos takes what sounds at first like an impossibly slow tempo, but it works - for me, at least.  Consequently, pretty bleak, black, dark and hopeless.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 07, 2021, 11:20:23 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 07, 2021, 11:05:27 AM
I enjoyed the documentary, but some of the details could've been left out. I think any one with a knowledge of history can read about how horrible the whole Siege of Leningrad was, but the musical aspect of the film was the most enjoyable.

As one who has lived in the city, and to whom some percentage of the information was not news, I found the whole thing well paced and compelling. The accumulated weight of the facts is itself part of the message.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 07, 2021, 11:24:14 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 07, 2021, 11:20:23 AM
As one who has lived in the city, and to whom some percentage of the information was not news, I found the whole thing well paced and compelling. The accumulated weight of the facts is itself part of the message.

For you, perhaps this is the case, but I still look at this symphony and every piece of music as an abstract experience. I'm beginning to feel that too much is made of the political environment of Shostakovich's music and not enough of the actual music itself. For me, the music tells me everything I need to know.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 07, 2021, 12:05:30 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on October 07, 2021, 08:27:32 AM
It is such a great series Karl.  Although I haven't seen all episodes.  I wish MTT would reboot the series with some new episodes.

I want to watch more of them right away, Ray, only I've got "my" concert in Lowell tonight  ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 07, 2021, 01:03:55 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 07, 2021, 12:05:30 PM
I want to watch more of them right away, Ray, only I've got "my" concert in Lowell tonight  ;)

Good luck at the concert, Karl. 8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on October 07, 2021, 03:14:32 PM
From last night at Carnegie Hall, the Shostakovich Piano Concerto No. 2 with Yuja Wang, the Philadelphia Orchestra, and Yannick Nézet-Séguin. As gala concerts go (often a mixed bag), this one was better than many, and judging from comments today, this performance was one of the evening's high points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0A_rCAtIeM&t=2s

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 08, 2021, 03:43:20 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on October 07, 2021, 08:27:32 AM
It is such a great series Karl.  Although I haven't seen all episodes.  I wish MTT would reboot the series with some new episodes.
I quite enjoyed one that he did on Mahler.  I stumbled across it by accident one night in the wee hours of the morning/night...was hoping that they would rebroadcast it in nicer hours as I was rather sleepy at the time.

How many did he do on Shostakovich?  Or was he doing one each on various composers?

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on October 08, 2021, 03:57:23 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 08, 2021, 03:43:20 AM
I quite enjoyed one that he did on Mahler.  I stumbled across it by accident one night in the wee hours of the morning/night...was hoping that they would rebroadcast it in nicer hours as I was rather sleepy at the time.

How many did he do on Shostakovich?  Or was he doing one each on various composers?

PD

I think he did about six in total, but only one for any composer.

I have seen the Berlioz (Symphony Fantastique) and Beethoven (Eroica) and Stravinsky (The Rite of Spring)

Am aware of the Shostakovich and Mahler, but can't remember the others.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 08, 2021, 04:17:17 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on October 08, 2021, 03:57:23 AM
I think he did about six in total, but only one for any composer.

I have seen the Berlioz (Symphony Fantastique) and Beethoven (Eroica) and Stravinsky (The Rite of Spring)

Am aware of the Shostakovich and Mahler, but can't remember the others.
Thanks!  I'll post a link to the Mahler one over in the Mahler thread (I found it on youtube. The San Francisco Symphony uploaded it.).

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 08, 2021, 06:27:57 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on October 08, 2021, 03:57:23 AM
I think he did about six in total, but only one for any composer.

I have seen the Berlioz (Symphony Fantastique) and Beethoven (Eroica) and Stravinsky (The Rite of Spring)

Am aware of the Shostakovich and Mahler, but can't remember the others.

Ives Holidays Symphony, for one, at any rate.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on October 08, 2021, 06:29:13 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 08, 2021, 06:27:57 AM
Ives Holidays Symphony, for one, at any rate.

Ah, yes. That is indeed another one.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 08, 2021, 06:30:23 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on October 08, 2021, 03:57:23 AM
I think he did about six in total, but only one for any composer.

I have seen the Berlioz (Symphony Fantastique) and Beethoven (Eroica) and Stravinsky (The Rite of Spring)

Am aware of the Shostakovich and Mahler, but can't remember the others.

He also did one on Copland that was quite good and, as Karl pointed, Ives as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on October 18, 2021, 05:15:19 PM
I really love Okko Kamu's conducting of Shostakovich.  This link references a recording of Kamu's No. 7 where you can hear the entire work but the link doesn't work for me.  Does anyone else have the link to the full concert please?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZyFvOmSSBE
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 20, 2021, 06:41:27 AM
Quote from: relm1 on October 18, 2021, 05:15:19 PM
I really love Okko Kamu's conducting of Shostakovich.  This link references a recording of Kamu's No. 7 where you can hear the entire work but the link doesn't work for me.  Does anyone else have the link to the full concert please?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZyFvOmSSBE

Fine conductor full stop!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: MusicTurner on October 20, 2021, 06:46:19 AM
'The Fall of Berlin' etc., film music. /Adriano /marco polo

Got this in a cheap pile. Only for die-hard completists, mostly lots of empty-gestures, another-day-at-the-office music, IMHO, I doubt I'll listen to it again.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on October 20, 2021, 07:09:05 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on October 20, 2021, 06:46:19 AM
'The Fall of Berlin' etc., film music. /Adriano /marco polo

Got this in a cheap pile. Only for die-hard completists, mostly lots of empty-gestures, another-day-at-the-office music, IMHO, I doubt I'll listen to it again.

I do have a fair amount of Shostakovich's film music and quite enjoy it, including this one.

Do I listen to it as often as his symphonies, concerti and chamber music? No I don't. But I wouldn't want to be without it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on November 05, 2021, 03:46:16 PM
One of my favorite works by Shostakovich is his youthful Octet for Strings, Op. 11, which I first encountered in high school. There are many excellent live recordings on YouTube, but today I found this one, from about a month ago, with students from the Moscow State Conservatory.

The octet has been given the full-blown string orchestra treatment, with an ensemble of roughly two dozen players. While I think the version for eight musicians has more clarity, there is something appealing about this full-blast, larger take.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Jo4XyEM0M

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on November 05, 2021, 05:46:42 PM
Quote from: MusicTurner on October 20, 2021, 06:46:19 AM
'The Fall of Berlin' etc., film music. /Adriano /marco polo

Got this in a cheap pile. Only for die-hard completists, mostly lots of empty-gestures, another-day-at-the-office music, IMHO, I doubt I'll listen to it again.

Too critical!  ;D

This work meant lots of fun to me. In fact, most of his film music I've heard has been delightful.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on November 05, 2021, 05:47:07 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on October 20, 2021, 07:09:05 AM
I do have a fair amount of Shostakovich's film music and quite enjoy it, including this one.

Do I listen to it as often as his symphonies, concerti and chamber music? No I don't. But I wouldn't want to be without it.

+1
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 05, 2021, 06:02:26 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 05, 2021, 05:46:42 PM
Too critical!  ;D

This work meant lots of fun to me. In fact, most of his film music I've heard has been delightful.

I need to revisit The Fall of Berlin. I certainly think that the scores for New Babylon and Alone are very fine.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on November 05, 2021, 08:20:01 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 05, 2021, 06:02:26 PM
I need to revisit The Fall of Berlin. I certainly think that the scores for New Babylon and Alone are very fine.

They're also incredibly fun in my book. Shostakovich's more-carefree side doesn't lack inspiration at all.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on November 06, 2021, 12:04:29 AM
Going back to all the film music is something on my to-do list. I do vaguely remember liking Alone/Odna.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on November 06, 2021, 05:43:46 AM
Definitely need to hear Shostakovich's film music. Been really digging Alfred Schnittke's film music lately.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 06, 2021, 05:45:36 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 05, 2021, 08:20:01 PM
They're also incredibly fun in my book. Shostakovich's more-carefree side doesn't lack inspiration at all.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on November 06, 2021, 09:24:25 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 06, 2021, 05:43:46 AM
Definitely need to hear Shostakovich's film music. Been really digging Alfred Schnittke's film music lately.

DSCH's film music is mostly unknown to me, but look forward to exploring it too! Schnittke is also quite a find, for me. I have been impressed by John's (MI) reflections in recent months, and he has so much to offer.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 06, 2021, 09:47:36 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on November 06, 2021, 09:24:25 AM
DSCH's film music is mostly unknown to me, but look forward to exploring it too! Schnittke is also quite a find, for me. I have been impressed by John's (MI) reflections in recent months, and he has so much to offer.

La crème de la crème, of course, is the brace of late Kozintsev Shakespeare soundtracks, Hamlet and Lear.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on November 06, 2021, 09:49:03 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 06, 2021, 09:47:36 AM
La crème de la crème, of course, is the brace of late Kozintsev Shakespeare soundtracks, Hamlet and Lear.

*adds to list*
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on November 09, 2021, 03:20:35 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 06, 2021, 09:47:36 AM
La crème de la crème, of course, is the brace of late Kozintsev Shakespeare soundtracks, Hamlet and Lear.

The plan in my head is actually to organise things by film director rather than by era. Kozintsev is the big one: once they started working together, it was on every film except one - from New Babylon in 1929 all the way through to Lear in 1971. That's quite a working relationship.

There's also a director named Arnshtam that Shostakovich worked with on 5 films. And a couple of other directors where there were repeated collaborations.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 09, 2021, 09:22:58 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on November 06, 2021, 09:49:03 AM
*adds to list*

For sure some of DSCH's film scores really are major works regardless of the genre.  New Babylon is probably one of the highpoints of his early career - the music seems to be pouring out of him from drammatic to wacky to atmospheric and seen alongside the actual film it is simply sensational.  Likewise the Shakespeare scores - I particularly like Hamlet.  I conducted a suite of it with an amateur British orchestra in a sleepy town in South England once.  I got a (slightly) malicious delight when the good folk in the audience jumped on the first slashed chord!

The 'propagandist' scores are very fine given the context of the music required and how DSCH had to poduce them but personally I find them of less interest (but fun to hear)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on November 10, 2021, 06:34:44 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 09, 2021, 09:22:58 AM
For sure some of DSCH's film scores really are major works regardless of the genre.  New Babylon is probably one of the highpoints of his early career - the music seems to be pouring out of him from drammatic to wacky to atmospheric and seen alongside the actual film it is simply sensational.  Likewise the Shakespeare scores - I particularly like Hamlet.  I conducted a suite of it with an amateur British orchestra in a sleepy town in South England once.  I got a (slightly) malicious delight when the good folk in the audience jumped on the first slashed chord!

The 'propagandist' scores are very fine given the context of the music required and how DSCH had to poduce them but personally I find them of less interest (but fun to hear)

Thanks for this. Now playing, and I agree very much with how good it is! Unfortunately, I can't find the Kozintsev Hamlet on Spotify :(. I would have liked to hear you in action, RS  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on November 10, 2021, 09:07:23 AM
These are the film recordings I own for Shostakovich (all excellent):

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/510TC5ZKMJL._AC_.jpg)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk0ODIyNC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NDQ4MTk2MDB9)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71+z+hyAhQL._SL1200_.jpg)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk3OTYwMi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkyMzYxNy4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjQ3OTc1MDR9)

On The Dance Album, this includes excerpts from the film The Gadfly.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on November 10, 2021, 02:46:43 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on November 10, 2021, 09:07:23 AM
These are the film recordings I own for Shostakovich (all excellent):

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/510TC5ZKMJL._AC_.jpg)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk0ODIyNC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NDQ4MTk2MDB9)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71+z+hyAhQL._SL1200_.jpg)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk3OTYwMi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkyMzYxNy4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjQ3OTc1MDR9)

On The Dance Album, this includes excerpts from the film The Gadfly.

Ah, these look great. I shall continue with these, thank you!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 11, 2021, 06:22:38 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on November 10, 2021, 02:46:43 PM
Ah, these look great. I shall continue with these, thank you!

If you've not heard them all 3 of the Chailly albums are great fun.  The collective titles are a bit spurious (especially Jazz!) but the programming/playing and engineering is top drawer......

(https://img.discogs.com/pQYTUPdpjcGbV3wvYeazIASZQsA=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3390810-1328559847.jpeg.jpg)(https://img.discogs.com/Sxls-twlImYbW3Fm-e_cPZu6eeE=/fit-in/600x539/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-9484261-1481464980-4364.jpeg.jpg)(https://img.discogs.com/ItsqvfhmOK_ckYug5MwbwqTWQkk=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-6584479-1422529924-7025.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on November 11, 2021, 02:40:38 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 11, 2021, 06:22:38 AM
If you've not heard them all 3 of the Chailly albums are great fun.  The collective titles are a bit spurious (especially Jazz!) but the programming/playing and engineering is top drawer......

(https://img.discogs.com/pQYTUPdpjcGbV3wvYeazIASZQsA=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3390810-1328559847.jpeg.jpg)(https://img.discogs.com/Sxls-twlImYbW3Fm-e_cPZu6eeE=/fit-in/600x539/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-9484261-1481464980-4364.jpeg.jpg)(https://img.discogs.com/ItsqvfhmOK_ckYug5MwbwqTWQkk=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-6584479-1422529924-7025.jpeg.jpg)

Really appreciate your recommendations. Much of my film music listening has been folk like Frederick Curzon, Arnold, Williams and Shore, so this is great stuff. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 11, 2021, 07:29:11 PM
Let's not forget these great sets of Shostakovich's film music:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/810uzZU+61L._SL1433_.jpg)(https://img.cdandlp.com/2017/06/imgL/116988469.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 11, 2021, 11:57:44 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 11, 2021, 07:29:11 PM
Let's not forget these great sets of Shostakovich's film music:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/810uzZU+61L._SL1433_.jpg)(https://img.cdandlp.com/2017/06/imgL/116988469.jpg)

Given that Serebrier is very good in other repertoire - and indeed the DSCH ballets on Naxos - those Belgium-sourced film discs are very thin gruel to my ear.  I think to be blunt, the orchestra is simply not that good..... The Capriccio set is excellent though
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 12, 2021, 06:10:03 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 11, 2021, 11:57:44 PM
Given that Serebrier is very good in other repertoire - and indeed the DSCH ballets on Naxos - those Belgium-sourced film discs are very thin gruel to my ear.  I think to be blunt, the orchestra is simply not that good..... The Capriccio set is excellent though

I just treat the Serebrier set like most horrible sounding Soviet Era recordings. ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 12, 2021, 06:12:32 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on November 10, 2021, 09:07:23 AM
These are the film recordings I own for Shostakovich (all excellent):

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/510TC5ZKMJL._AC_.jpg)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk0ODIyNC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NDQ4MTk2MDB9)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71+z+hyAhQL._SL1200_.jpg)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk3OTYwMi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkyMzYxNy4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjQ3OTc1MDR9)

On The Dance Album, this includes excerpts from the film The Gadfly.

You should check this one out, too, Ray:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwMzc1MS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on November 12, 2021, 06:21:18 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 12, 2021, 06:12:32 AM
You should check this one out, too, Ray:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwMzc1MS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)

Indeed, John. It is on my list, along with a few others.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 12, 2021, 06:46:36 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on November 12, 2021, 06:21:18 AM
Indeed, John. It is on my list, along with a few others.

8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on November 20, 2021, 04:56:16 AM
I've finally picked up a set of the string quartets (Brodsky) and having heard 7 of them so far, they are incredibly fascinating works. I didn't realize that the eight quartets from 8-15 are arranged in pairs of relative keys.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on November 20, 2021, 06:28:27 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on November 20, 2021, 04:56:16 AM
I've finally picked up a set of the string quartets (Brodsky) and having heard 7 of them so far, they are incredibly fascinating works. I didn't realize that the eight quartets from 8-15 are arranged in pairs of relative keys.

I hadn't noticed that but I guess it's not surprising since he apparently entertained the idea of composing one in each key.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jo498 on November 20, 2021, 07:51:26 AM
I wonder when he got the idea, probably not already within the first handful of quartets that are spaced out quite a bit

1 1938
(he wrote the piano quintet and trio between the first two string quartets)
2 1944
3 1946
4 1949
5 1952

It's also interesting that most of the quartets are rather late pieces. The first disc I bought was with 6,10,14 (Brodsky, when they were still separate discs) and I was quite surprised that even #6 was a lateish piece (compare with Beethoven where 6,10,14 would have given you one early, one middle, one late).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: BasilValentine on November 20, 2021, 09:34:08 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 20, 2021, 07:51:26 AM
I wonder when he got the idea, probably not already within the first handful of quartets that are spaced out quite a bit

1 1938
(he wrote the piano quintet and trio between the first two string quartets)
2 1944
3 1946
4 1949
5 1952

It's also interesting that most of the quartets are rather late pieces. The first disc I bought was with 6,10,14 (Brodsky, when they were still separate discs) and I was quite surprised that even #6 was a lateish piece (compare with Beethoven where 6,10,14 would have given you one early, one middle, one late).

This was sort of inevitable given that he came to the genre late — the first quartet composed at age 32, whereas the first symphony at 19.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on November 20, 2021, 09:57:22 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on November 20, 2021, 04:56:16 AM
I've finally picked up a set of the string quartets (Brodsky) and having heard 7 of them so far, they are incredibly fascinating works. I didn't realize that the eight quartets from 8-15 are arranged in pairs of relative keys.

Worth a read ...

http://www.quartets.de/articles/structure.html (http://www.quartets.de/articles/structure.html)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on November 21, 2021, 04:19:32 AM
Thanks. I have visited that website often during my initial listens to these quartets, which continues with No. 11 as I write.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 27, 2021, 12:13:59 PM
I enjoyed this informative and entertaining review of recordings of the 4th Symphony:
https://www.psaudio.com/copper/article/a-survey-of-recordings-of-shostakovich-symphony-no-4/
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 27, 2021, 03:57:45 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 27, 2021, 12:13:59 PM
I enjoyed this informative and entertaining review of recordings of the 4th Symphony:
https://www.psaudio.com/copper/article/a-survey-of-recordings-of-shostakovich-symphony-no-4/ (https://www.psaudio.com/copper/article/a-survey-of-recordings-of-shostakovich-symphony-no-4/)

I'm torn between thinking he was harsh on Nelsons, and the fact that I think that yet another Shostakovich cycle was unimaginative on the part of the BSO. Oh, but at the end he give Nelsons an hon. mention.

Agree with him that the Järvi Fourth is meh, but the sound file is something entirely different ....


Most interesting, thanks, Jeffrey. Wonder what went funny with the sound clips ....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 28, 2021, 05:31:01 AM
I just wanted to stop by and tell everyone how thrilling the Muti/CSO performance is of the Babi Yar:

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0573/7014/9060/products/zslcjtcv9va1npm7nttz_670x.jpg?v=1622665892)

For those that haven't heard it, you definitely need this recording in your collection.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 28, 2021, 06:47:09 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 27, 2021, 12:13:59 PM
I enjoyed this informative and entertaining review of recordings of the 4th Symphony:
https://www.psaudio.com/copper/article/a-survey-of-recordings-of-shostakovich-symphony-no-4/

Thanks for the link, interesting article. But is anyone else getting some groovy-blues music in the sample tracks?  ;D


Quote from: Mirror Image on November 28, 2021, 05:31:01 AM
I just wanted to stop by and tell everyone how thrilling the Muti/CSO performance is of the Babi Yar:

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0573/7014/9060/products/zslcjtcv9va1npm7nttz_670x.jpg?v=1622665892)

For those that haven't heard it, you definitely need this recording in your collection.


I agree, John. Truly mesmerizing.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 28, 2021, 02:10:14 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 28, 2021, 06:47:09 AM
Thanks for the link, interesting article. But is anyone else getting some groovy-blues music in the sample tracks?  ;D

Sure ain't Shostakovich!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 28, 2021, 11:58:30 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 27, 2021, 03:57:45 PM
I'm torn between thinking he was harsh on Nelsons, and the fact that I think that yet another Shostakovich cycle was unimaginative on the part of the BSO. Oh, but at the end he give Nelsons an hon. mention.

Agree with him that the Järvi Fourth is meh, but the sound file is something entirely different ....


Most interesting, thanks, Jeffrey. Wonder what went funny with the sound clips ....

No mention of a real sleeper -

(https://www.listenmusicculture.com/dam/jcr:58bedd96-28f1-4e08-8a84-a957b39566a4/UNSUNG_side_Raiskin.2018-01-22-20-52-58.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 29, 2021, 04:14:43 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 28, 2021, 11:58:30 PM
No mention of a real sleeper -

(https://www.listenmusicculture.com/dam/jcr:58bedd96-28f1-4e08-8a84-a957b39566a4/UNSUNG_side_Raiskin.2018-01-22-20-52-58.jpg)
It's a fabulous recording - one of the best.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on November 29, 2021, 04:15:14 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 28, 2021, 05:31:01 AM
I just wanted to stop by and tell everyone how thrilling the Muti/CSO performance is of the Babi Yar:

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0573/7014/9060/products/zslcjtcv9va1npm7nttz_670x.jpg?v=1622665892)

For those that haven't heard it, you definitely need this recording in your collection.
On my wish list  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on November 29, 2021, 05:46:51 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 29, 2021, 04:14:43 AM
It's a fabulous recording - one of the best.

Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 28, 2021, 11:58:30 PM
No mention of a real sleeper -

(https://www.listenmusicculture.com/dam/jcr:58bedd96-28f1-4e08-8a84-a957b39566a4/UNSUNG_side_Raiskin.2018-01-22-20-52-58.jpg)

Yes, I really love this recording. I am admittedly biased because Daniel Raiskin is our Music Director and conductor for my Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra.  :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on November 29, 2021, 06:03:08 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 29, 2021, 04:15:14 AM
On my wish list  :)

8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on December 03, 2021, 05:28:22 AM
To spur on Karl.  :)

Of course, this music in the four ballet suites is bits and pieces from his other theater works (The Limpid Stream mainly, along with The Bolt, Suite for Jazz Orchestra No. 1, The Tale of a Priest and His Servant Balda, Michurin, The Human Comedy and The Song of the Great Rivers).

Listening to this right now, and it is hitting the spot this morning.  Haven't listened to in for awhile, but I listen to it quite frequently in the past!

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkzMTk4Ni4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on December 03, 2021, 08:30:00 PM
The other day I was enjoying his 10th SQ in A flat major as played by the Pacifica Quartet. This thing about keys intrigues me importantly. I have a special fixation with this concept and how it is applied in music, in musical notes, chords, rhythm, harmony, etc. This quartet give me huge pleasure. Its construction, its musical architecture, melodical and harmonical, mostly, is nothing but astonishing.

Shostakovich was a fascinating genius. My soul resonates with his style quite a lot.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 03, 2021, 08:34:57 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on December 03, 2021, 08:30:00 PM
The other day I was enjoying his 10th SQ in A flat major as played by the Pacifica Quartet. This thing about keys intrigues me importantly. I have a special fixation with this concept and how it is applied in music, in musical notes, chords, rhythm, harmony, etc. This quartet give me huge pleasure. Its construction, its musical architecture, melodical and harmonical, mostly, is nothing but astonishing.

Shostakovich was a fascinating genius. My soul resonates with his style quite a lot.

That he was, Cesar. Your talk about The Bells being your favorite choral symphony made me realize that my own would be Shostakovich's Babi Yar.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on December 03, 2021, 08:38:55 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 03, 2021, 08:34:57 PM
That he was, Cesar. Your talk about The Bells being your favorite choral symphony made me realize that my own would be Shostakovich's Babi Yar.

Of course, silly me! Ok, now I have another tie. I can't live without any of them.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 03, 2021, 08:41:21 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on December 03, 2021, 08:38:55 PM
Of course, silly me! Ok, now I have another tie. I can't live without any of them.

Somehow I knew you'd reconsider. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on December 03, 2021, 08:53:11 PM
I can't seem to get on with Babi Yar. But then I struggle with quite a few of Shostakovich's symphonies.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 03, 2021, 09:09:03 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 03, 2021, 08:53:11 PM
I can't seem to get on with Babi Yar. But then I struggle with quite a few of Shostakovich's symphonies.

Try a non-linear tack? Focus on, say, "Fears" to start with....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on December 03, 2021, 09:55:17 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 03, 2021, 08:41:21 PM
Somehow I knew you'd reconsider. ;) ;D

You know me rather well, then.  :P >:D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on December 03, 2021, 11:23:20 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 03, 2021, 08:53:11 PM
I can't seem to get on with Babi Yar. But then I struggle with quite a few of Shostakovich's symphonies.
It was Haitink's recording which made me appreciate this work, which I now consider one of Shostakovich's greatest symphonies. Haitink brought Vaughan Williams's 'A Sea Symphony' alive for me as well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on December 04, 2021, 01:17:41 AM
Babi Yar is an excellent piece in my opinion. I've got 2 recordings, Previn and Petrenko, and like them both.

It's also the piece that led me to strongly advocate for the value of actually knowing what is being sung about. Because the first time I heard the Anne Frank passage in the first movement with a translation to hand, it hit me like a sledgehammer.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 04, 2021, 02:03:14 AM
I had a great time yesterday listening to his first violin concerto with Oistrakh and Mitropoulos and the New York Phil. Orch (1965)!  Hadn't listened to that in ages.  Also read about the rehearsals and performance of it in Elizabeth Wilson's book on Shostakovich which was very enjoyable and helpful.   :)  I mentioned it and quoted a bit from her book over on the current listening thread.

By the way, do any of you here have any favorite more modern recordings of it?

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on December 04, 2021, 06:35:12 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 03, 2021, 08:53:11 PM
I can't seem to get on with Babi Yar. But then I struggle with quite a few of Shostakovich's symphonies.

I found Okko Kamu's CBSO blew me away...it was devastatingly impactful, and I wish he did a full cycle.  But it's from his late period so takes a bit more time for some to find their way to it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 04, 2021, 11:18:17 PM
Such a great work and so many fine versions.... but the one that I find especially fine is Barshai's in his Brilliant box with the WDR Cologne.  As everyone here will know - that's a generally fine cycle with no major disappointments BUT the No.13 is stand-out excellent.  For me it is the choral tone (and that of the soloist) that is key in this work and Barshai's chorus is simply superb.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on December 05, 2021, 01:33:01 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 04, 2021, 02:03:14 AM
By the way, do any of you here have any favorite more modern recordings of it?

To my ears Vengerov channels the spirit of Oistrakh in a good modern recording.
Ibragimova is the polar opposite (withdrawn, introverted) and is my current favourite, although I did at first have some reservations about the orchestral accompaniment.
Tetzlaff treads a fine line between the two and is also very recommendable IMHO.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Xhly0UP3L._SS500_.jpg)

Ibragimova incidentally plays the 'original' version where the soloist continues through into the Finale without the 8 bars rest.  For the listener, it's neither here nor there, the music is the same either way.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on December 05, 2021, 03:01:22 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 04, 2021, 02:03:14 AM
I had a great time yesterday listening to his first violin concerto with Oistrakh and Mitropoulos and the New York Phil. Orch (1965)!  Hadn't listened to that in ages.  Also read about the rehearsals and performance of it in Elizabeth Wilson's book on Shostakovich which was very enjoyable and helpful.   :)  I mentioned it and quoted a bit from her book over on the current listening thread.

By the way, do any of you here have any favorite more modern recordings of it?

PD
I like this version PD.
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 05, 2021, 05:45:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 05, 2021, 03:01:22 AM
I like this version PD.
(//)
Thanks for the suggestion Jeffrey; I do have recordings of hers but not that one.  By the way, is that an early '80's recording?

PD

p.s.  Will put on some more Shosti when the Rachmaninov is over (soon).  :)

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 05, 2021, 06:35:25 AM
I'm with Jeffrey in that Mordkovitch/Järvi in both VCs are top-drawer. Some of my favorite performances. I also have come around to the Ibragimova/Jurowski that aukhawk mentioned and like him, I wasn't completely convinced by Jurowski's accompaniment when I first heard it, but now I'm certainly whistling a different tune that I'm more familiar with the performance. Others I like are Vengerov/Rostropovich and Khachatryan/Masur (although Masur is far from the ideal accompanist, IMHO).

I think Ray (OrchestralNut) favors the Mullova/Previn, but I'll be honest and say it's a hit/miss. I think she's fine in the faster movements, but the menace and dread is totally missing from the Nocturne and Passacaglia. A shame really, because I really thought her performance would be one of the better ones, especially since she's got Previn at the helm.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 05, 2021, 06:54:09 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2021, 06:35:25 AM
I'm with Jeffrey in that Mordkovitch/Järvi in both VCs are top-drawer. Some of my favorite performances. I also have come around to the Ibragimova/Jurowski that aukhawk mentioned and like him, I wasn't completely convinced by Jurowski's accompaniment when I first heard it, but now I'm certainly whistling a different tune that I'm more familiar with the performance. Others I like are Vengerov/Rostropovich and Khachatryan/Masur (although Masur is far from the ideal accompanist, IMHO).

I think Ray (OrchestralNut) favors the Mullova/Previn, but I'll be honest and say it's a hit/miss. I think she's fine in the faster movements, but the menace and dread is totally missing from the Nocturne and Passacaglia. A shame really, because I really thought her performance would be one of the better ones, especially since she's got Previn at the helm.
It will be interesting to hear someone besides Oistrakh play it as it was an amazing performance--not just by him but also thoroughly enjoyed the orchestra's playing of it too.  And the sound was quite good. 

Have you heard this one John?  If so, how did you like it?

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on December 05, 2021, 07:49:16 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 04, 2021, 02:03:14 AM
I had a great time yesterday listening to his first violin concerto with Oistrakh and Mitropoulos and the New York Phil. Orch (1965)!  Hadn't listened to that in ages.  Also read about the rehearsals and performance of it in Elizabeth Wilson's book on Shostakovich which was very enjoyable and helpful.   :)  I mentioned it and quoted a bit from her book over on the current listening thread.

By the way, do any of you here have any favorite more modern recordings of it?

PD

Left field PD, but a performance in the spirit of the great David Oistrakh recording with Mitropoulos with better sound and one hell of a pedigree; David's son, Igor Oistrakh violin with Dimitri's son, Maxim Shostakovich conducting the Moscow Radio SO on Melodiya.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: VonStupp on December 05, 2021, 07:52:18 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 05, 2021, 03:01:22 AM
(https://coverartarchive.org/release-group/51cd36d8-4fff-3ae6-8d61-3f91fe19c810/front)

+1 (or 2?)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 05, 2021, 07:52:49 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 05, 2021, 06:54:09 AM
It will be interesting to hear someone besides Oistrakh play it as it was an amazing performance--not just by him but also thoroughly enjoyed the orchestra's playing of it too.  And the sound was quite good. 

Have you heard this one John?  If so, how did you like it?

PD

Oistrakh has always been the "gold standard" in Shostakovich's VCs (or, at least, the 1st VC), but I never subscribed to this opinion. I have always found his playing on the dry side and not expressive enough where the music certainly calls for it. Sorry, but the performances I mentioned are more worthy of my attention than any of the Oistrakh performances I've slogged my way through.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on December 05, 2021, 08:33:12 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 05, 2021, 05:45:00 AM
Thanks for the suggestion Jeffrey; I do have recordings of hers but not that one.  By the way, is that an early '80's recording?

PD

p.s.  Will put on some more Shosti when the Rachmaninov is over (soon).  :)

PD
1990 release date PD.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 05, 2021, 02:04:21 PM
Quote from: Irons on December 05, 2021, 07:49:16 AM
Left field PD, but a performance in the spirit of the great David Oistrakh recording with Mitropoulos with better sound and one hell of a pedigree; David's son, Igor Oistrakh violin with Dimitri's son, Maxim Shostakovich conducting the Moscow Radio SO on Melodiya.
When is that one from Irons?  And was it a live or studio recording?

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 05, 2021, 03:00:09 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on December 05, 2021, 01:33:01 AM
To my ears Vengerov channels the spirit of Oistrakh in a good modern recording.
Ibragimova is the polar opposite (withdrawn, introverted) and is my current favourite, although I did at first have some reservations about the orchestral accompaniment.
Tetzlaff treads a fine line between the two and is also very recommendable IMHO.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Xhly0UP3L._SS500_.jpg)

Ibragimova incidentally plays the 'original' version where the soloist continues through into the Finale without the 8 bars rest.  For the listener, it's neither here nor there, the music is the same either way.
And thank you for your thoughts and suggestions Aukhawk!  was she playing it live or in a studio?  Oistrakh played it live...hence the request/change for a break.  Mind you, this was also during very different times...I can try and share with you (via EW's book) how stressful it was to everyone involved at the premiere.

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 05, 2021, 03:50:56 PM
Okay...so let's talk about the SQs for second (or more ;)), what is everyone's favorite cycle? There are so many of them out there now.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2021, 04:07:54 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2021, 03:50:56 PM
Okay...so let's talk about the SQs for second (or more ;), what is everyone's favorite cycle? There are so many of them out there now.

Couldn't possibly pick one.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 05, 2021, 04:08:23 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 05, 2021, 04:07:54 PM
Couldn't possibly pick one.

Okay, then how about two? ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2021, 04:09:03 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2021, 04:08:23 PM
Okay, then how about two? ;)

Hah!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: VonStupp on December 05, 2021, 04:15:27 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2021, 03:50:56 PM
Okay...so let's talk about the SQs for second (or more ;)), what is everyone's favorite cycle? There are so many of them out there now.

I most often pull these two out, so I suppose they are my favorite. I reserve the right to backtrack though, as I ponder... :-\

VS

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/717TPWnyOgS._SL1200_.jpg) (https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH10064.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 05, 2021, 04:25:13 PM
Quote from: VonStupp on December 05, 2021, 04:15:27 PM
I most often pull these two out, so I suppose they are my favorite. I reserve the right to backtrack though, as I ponder... :-\

VS

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/717TPWnyOgS._SL1200_.jpg) (https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH10064.jpg)

I'm ashamed to admit that I haven't heard one note from the Shostakovich Quartet. I know they're highly regarded by many. As for the Borodin Quartet, I love all that I've heard, which has been the Chandos partial cycle and the Melodiya cycle.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: VonStupp on December 05, 2021, 05:33:59 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2021, 04:25:13 PM
I'm ashamed to admit that I haven't heard one note from the Shostakovich Quartet. I know they're highly regarded by many.

I also enjoy their playing of Alexander Borodin's Quartets.

Of course, when you have the Borodin Quartet and the Shostakovich Quartet playing the string quartets of Shostakovich and Borodin, the search engine does not like to play nice.  :laugh:

VS
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 05, 2021, 05:36:05 PM
Quote from: VonStupp on December 05, 2021, 05:33:59 PM
I also enjoy their playing of Alexander Borodin's Quartets.

Of course, when you have the Borodin Quartet and the Shostakovich Quartet playing the string quartets of Shostakovich and Borodin, the search engine does not like to play nice.  :laugh:

VS

Hah! ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: MusicTurner on December 05, 2021, 11:14:02 PM
Yes - as a side remark, like in the case of those two ensembles, the Smetana Quartet and the Janacek Quartet, and their discographies, both playing both composers ... And together, they also played Mendelssohn's 'Octet' :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jo498 on December 06, 2021, 12:56:17 AM
The only "old russian" recordings I have heard are the incomplete Borodin on Chandos and the early 1980s Borodin on Melodiya. I am in the process of slowly listening to all of my DSCH quartet recordings but I'd be probably fine with only the two of them. Then I have two "modern western" cycles, the Brodsky that was only the second "western" recording (after Fitzwilliam) and the Sorrel (I have probably never heard all of that box but it was strongly recommended in another forum 10 or 15 years ago). I am not really in the market for getting anymore being pretty much satisfied. I was rather positively surprised re-listening to some of the Brodsky as I had remembered them as a bit bland. But I also have to admit that I don't know about half of the quartets all that well, so I am probably not that particular about interpretations, unless they are obviously poorly played or stick out otherwise. The one disc I had heard of the Naxos (3+5, two of my favorite pieces, with the Eder?) was also quite good.
I was and still am a bit tempted by the Pacifica box that got rave reviews (and has about 4 interesting quartets by other composers as fillers) but right know I cannot justify the space...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on December 06, 2021, 01:11:58 AM
Quote from: VonStupp on December 05, 2021, 04:15:27 PM
I most often pull these two out, so I suppose they are my favorite. I reserve the right to backtrack though, as I ponder... :-\

VS

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/717TPWnyOgS._SL1200_.jpg) (https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH10064.jpg)

Two fine sets, the best in my view. Borodin recorded the Shostakovich string quartets twice and the  first with Dubinsky first violin is the one to have.

PD. Neither cover or record of Igor Oistrakh's 1st Violin Concerto has a recording date. A stereo recording CM 03941-2.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: MusicTurner on December 06, 2021, 01:18:47 AM
I own some of the quartets with the Borodin4/melodiya, and the complete sets with Fitzwilliam4, Shostakovich4 and the Rubio4, which is enough for me.

The Rubio Quartet has a less martial, more ~lyrical or ~beauty-seeking approach, that can be refreshing and inviting at times.

The Shostakovich Quartet set is probably the least important among them, IMHO, but it's been a while since I heard any.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 06, 2021, 06:37:51 AM
Quote from: VonStupp on December 05, 2021, 05:33:59 PM
I also enjoy their playing of Alexander Borodin's Quartets.

Of course, when you have the Borodin Quartet and the Shostakovich Quartet playing the string quartets of Shostakovich and Borodin, the search engine does not like to play nice.  :laugh:

VS
:laugh:  No it doesn't!  ::)

Note:  As for complete [not totally], the only set that I have of Shostakovich's string quartets is the original Borodin Quartet one (recentlyish acquired) and need to work my way through it.  Actually, yesterday, I was trying to listen to his String Quartet No. 3 with I believe it was the Cailin String Quartet from my Shosti boxed set, but then realized that the soundstage was messed up; the sound was distinctly lower from my right speaker, so that ended that for the time being [Now 'fixed'.].

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 06, 2021, 06:45:36 AM
The complete sets I have are the Emersons, the Pacifica, and the Mandelrings. I love 'em all. There, I said it!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 06, 2021, 07:07:42 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 06, 2021, 06:45:36 AM
The complete sets I have are the Emersons, the Pacifica, and the Mandelrings. I love 'em all. There, I said it!
Huzzah!  :)

Off to fix something to eat and then back to music....

PD

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on December 06, 2021, 07:35:09 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on December 06, 2021, 01:18:47 AM
I own some of the quartets with the Borodin4/melodiya, and the complete sets with Fitzwilliam4, Shostakovich4 and the Rubio4, which is enough for me.

The Rubio Quartet has a less martial, more ~lyrical or ~beauty-seeking approach, that can be refreshing and inviting at times.

The Shostakovich Quartet set is probably the least important among them, IMHO, but it's been a while since I heard any.

I forgot Fitzwilliam. They are very good too.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 06, 2021, 08:33:57 AM
Quote from: Irons on December 06, 2021, 07:35:09 AM
I forgot Fitzwilliam. They are very good too.
You know, I almost checked in a different area of my CD collection (where I keep boxed sets of composers' works), but didn't; I had forgotten that I also own the Fitzwilliam set!  :-[  Oh, boy!

So, debating what to dive into here (whilst soup is cooking)...

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on December 06, 2021, 11:33:09 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 05, 2021, 03:50:56 PM
Okay...so let's talk about the SQs for second (or more ;)), what is everyone's favorite cycle? There are so many of them out there now.

To be honest I've never felt the need to stray from my Fitzwilliam box.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 06, 2021, 01:32:58 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 06, 2021, 06:45:36 AM
The complete sets I have are the Emersons, the Pacifica, and the Mandelrings. I love 'em all. There, I said it!

Send him to the gas chambers Awesome, Karl! ;) ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on December 06, 2021, 03:47:25 PM
My journey this year into the Shostakovich SQs has centred on the Borodin and Mandelring Quartett, but for me, I don't think there is much to choose between them.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 06, 2021, 06:33:58 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on December 06, 2021, 03:47:25 PM
My journey this year into the Shostakovich SQs has centred on the Borodin and Mandelring Quartett, but for me, I don't think there is much to choose between them.

Which Borodin set, fox?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on December 07, 2021, 07:33:55 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 06, 2021, 06:33:58 PM
Which Borodin set, fox?

The Decca version, with DSCH looking characteristically good humoured on the cover, MI. I did own hard copies of the original, incomplete set, but I rarely listen to the rips from those. Spotify is too easy.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 07, 2021, 07:59:05 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on December 07, 2021, 07:33:55 AM
The Decca version, with DSCH looking characteristically good humoured on the cover, MI. I did own hard copies of the original, incomplete set, but I rarely listen to the rips from those. Spotify is too easy.
What do you notice difference-wise between the original (incomplete) recordings and this set Fox?

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on December 07, 2021, 12:14:44 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 07, 2021, 07:59:05 AM
What do you notice difference-wise between the original (incomplete) recordings and this set Fox?

PD

It's been so long since I last heard them, and I was so nervous of not understanding the works properly, that I shamefully don't know!

Helpful, huh? 😁
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 07, 2021, 12:57:55 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on December 07, 2021, 07:33:55 AM
The Decca version, with DSCH looking characteristically good humoured on the cover, MI. I did own hard copies of the original, incomplete set, but I rarely listen to the rips from those. Spotify is too easy.

My problem is I just can't force myself to do the streaming thing unless there's some kind of incentive. As I mentioned in another thread, Apple bought Primephonic this year and will release a classical app next year and they said they will be offering high-res streaming options. Something to think about for those who do streaming. They're database should be vast, especially compared to Spotify.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on December 07, 2021, 04:09:53 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 07, 2021, 12:57:55 PM
My problem is I just can't force myself to do the streaming thing unless there's some kind of incentive. As I mentioned in another thread, Apple bought Primephonic this year and will release a classical app next year and they said they will be offering high-res streaming options. Something to think about for those who do streaming. They're database should be vast, especially compared to Spotify.

Certainly worth considering, MI. The upside of Spotify is the lack of specialism, oddly, as it carries so many obscure non-classical artists. Being something of a metalhead, I get it all under one roof.

First World problems!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 07, 2021, 05:29:56 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on December 07, 2021, 04:09:53 PM
Certainly worth considering, MI. The upside of Spotify is the lack of specialism, oddly, as it carries so many obscure non-classical artists. Being something of a metalhead, I get it all under one roof.

First World problems!

Yes, I can certainly see that in being beneficial.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on December 08, 2021, 03:21:25 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 07, 2021, 12:57:55 PM
My problem is I just can't force myself to do the streaming thing unless there's some kind of incentive. As I mentioned in another thread, Apple bought Primephonic this year and will release a classical app next year and they said they will be offering high-res streaming options. Something to think about for those who do streaming. They're database should be vast, especially compared to Spotify.

Databases are not the issue. Ability to meaningfully search the database is the issue. Apple Music is currently awful in that regard. Really, really awful. Primephonic was fairly good, but I'm actually finding that Idagio is possibly better than Primephonic.

I am making no use whatsoever of the free Apple Music subscription that I received as compensation for Primephonic's demise.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 08, 2021, 08:40:07 AM
Quote from: Madiel on December 08, 2021, 03:21:25 AM
Databases are not the issue. Ability to meaningfully search the database is the issue. Apple Music is currently awful in that regard. Really, really awful. Primephonic was fairly good, but I'm actually finding that Idagio is possibly better than Primephonic.

I am making no use whatsoever of the free Apple Music subscription that I received as compensation for Primephonic's demise.

Maybe they'll improve the search function? If not, who cares. I've got enough music to last me 20 lifetimes.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on December 09, 2021, 02:38:51 AM
Which hasn't really lessened your desire to keep adding, though. This is not a criticism. The measure of what you have is not so relevant to the measure of how much you still want to explore.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 09, 2021, 05:02:55 AM
Quote from: Madiel on December 09, 2021, 02:38:51 AM
Which hasn't really lessened your desire to keep adding, though. This is not a criticism. The measure of what you have is not so relevant to the measure of how much you still want to explore.

That's a good point. There's just so much out there.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2021, 05:41:16 AM
I had forgotten just how well the Tsvetayeva Poems and the Fourteenth Symphony pair up.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 09, 2021, 06:23:30 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 09, 2021, 05:41:16 AM
I had forgotten just how well the Tsvetayeva Poems and the Fourteenth Symphony pair up.

They do, don't they? Remarkable works.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 16, 2021, 10:03:54 AM
Have a question for y'all:

I noticed in the liner notes for the Borodin set (with the original members) that they wrote "Despite our best endeavors, we have not succeeded in discovering the precise dates and locations of these recordings.  We would welcome any information which the public may be able to supply in this regard."

The copyright date there is 2003.

Anyone here know if this mystery has been solved?  If I'm recalling correctly (found elsewhere), they were recorded roughly from the late (?) 60's to the early 70's.

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on December 17, 2021, 12:26:04 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 16, 2021, 10:03:54 AM
Have a question for y'all:

I noticed in the liner notes for the Borodin set (with the original members) that they wrote "Despite our best endeavors, we have not succeeded in discovering the precise dates and locations of these recordings.  We would welcome any information which the public may be able to supply in this regard."

The copyright date there is 2003.

Anyone here know if this mystery has been solved?  If I'm recalling correctly (found elsewhere), they were recorded roughly from the late (?) 60's to the early 70's.

PD

Checked individual Melodiya LPs which unfortunately are not dated. Melodiya LPs usually have at bottom edge R which I always assume is "recording" followed by a date. For some reason the Borodin cycle do not have this. Going on to a EMI box under the track listing the following information, P (ublished) Quartets 1-12 1967 Quartet No. 13 1972. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 17, 2021, 02:57:37 AM
Quote from: Irons on December 17, 2021, 12:26:04 AM
Checked individual Melodiya LPs which unfortunately are not dated. Melodiya LPs usually have at bottom edge R which I always assume is "recording" followed by a date. For some reason the Borodin cycle do not have this. Going on to a EMI box under the track listing the following information, P (ublished) Quartets 1-12 1967 Quartet No. 13 1972.
Interesting!  So, I'm guessing that the "bottom edge R" is on the back cover?

And thank you for your detective work Irons!  Wonder whether or not any of the original members ever wrote memoires?  Would be interesting to read for a number of reasons.

By the way, how do those Melodiya ones sound?

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 17, 2021, 05:44:12 AM
Peculiarly neglectful of Melodiya.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 17, 2021, 05:52:09 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 17, 2021, 05:44:12 AM
Peculiarly neglectful of Melodiya.
I was rather surprised too Karl.  I suspect that they didn't normally name the recording venue either.

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on December 17, 2021, 07:48:51 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 17, 2021, 05:52:09 AM
I was rather surprised too Karl.  I suspect that they didn't normally name the recording venue either.

PD

No venue, PD. I notice most if not all are recorded by Yuri Kokzhayan, who?! I hear you ask.  ???

I have banged on about this before. The original Borodin, along with Dubinsky, also recorded the 8th SQ in Poland on the Muza Polskie Nagrania label, coupled with the Szymanowski 2nd. IMO this performance is superior to both the Melodiya and Decca 8th's.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2021, 08:28:41 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 06, 2021, 06:45:36 AM
The complete sets I have are the Emersons, the Pacifica, and the Mandelrings. I love 'em all. There, I said it!

I have those three plus Fitzwilliam, Rubio, Sorrel, Borodin I and Borodin II. I too love 'em all. Usually the one I'm currently listening to is my favorite. But if I had to choose, it would be Mandelring.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 17, 2021, 10:09:00 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2021, 08:28:41 AM
I have those three plus Fitzwilliam, Rubio, Sorrel, Borodin I and Borodin II. I too love 'em all. Usually the one I'm currently listening to is my favorite. But if I had to choose, it would be Mandelring.

Sarge

Thou wast ever a kindred soul.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on December 17, 2021, 10:50:40 AM
Just the fact that Karl and Sarge, between them, mentioned eight complete sets of these quartets -- right off the bat -- makes me shake my head in astonishment. Says a lot about the quartets themselves -- not to mention the age we live in, which is awash in great music.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 17, 2021, 01:24:54 PM
Quote from: Irons on December 17, 2021, 07:48:51 AM
No venue, PD. I notice most if not all are recorded by Yuri Kokzhayan, who?! I hear you ask.  ???

I have banged on about this before. The original Borodin, along with Dubinsky, also recorded the 8th SQ in Poland on the Muza Polskie Nagrania label, coupled with the Szymanowski 2nd. IMO this performance is superior to both the Melodiya and Decca 8th's.
Oh, neat!  I didn't know about that recording Irons.  Nice to know, thank you!  :)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2021, 08:28:41 AM
I have those three plus Fitzwilliam, Rubio, Sorrel, Borodin I and Borodin II. I too love 'em all. Usually the one I'm currently listening to is my favorite. But if I had to choose, it would be Mandelring.

Sarge
Ah, I just found your other comments here!  I had asked about how you liked the Sorrel Quartet's recordings, but then later noticed that you had been listening to a bunch of other recordings of the quartets.  ;D

Quote from: Brewski on December 17, 2021, 10:50:40 AM
Just the fact that Karl and Sarge, between them, mentioned eight complete sets of these quartets -- right off the bat -- makes me shake my head in astonishment. Says a lot about the quartets themselves -- not to mention the age we live in, which is awash in great music.

--Bruce

I know!  8)  Cool!

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: staxomega on December 17, 2021, 02:26:19 PM
Quote from: Brewski on December 17, 2021, 10:50:40 AM
Just the fact that Karl and Sarge, between them, mentioned eight complete sets of these quartets -- right off the bat -- makes me shake my head in astonishment. Says a lot about the quartets themselves -- not to mention the age we live in, which is awash in great music.

--Bruce

Agreed, and hopefully we get many more complete cycles. Bartok, Haydn, Beethoven, Shostakovich and Schoenberg there is always at least one complete cycle of these on my phone, for Shostakovich right now that is Pacifica.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: JBS on December 17, 2021, 05:42:43 PM
Quote from: Brewski on December 17, 2021, 10:50:40 AM
Just the fact that Karl and Sarge, between them, mentioned eight complete sets of these quartets -- right off the bat -- makes me shake my head in astonishment. Says a lot about the quartets themselves -- not to mention the age we live in, which is awash in great music.

--Bruce

Also the Brodsky Quartet, Danel Quartet, and Shostakovich Quartet.

Of the cycles mentioned, including the above three, I have all but the Sorrel and Borodin I. My two favorites are Borodin II and Emerson, but they're all worth hearing.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on December 18, 2021, 12:09:14 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 17, 2021, 01:24:54 PM
Ah, I just found your other comments here!  I had asked about how you liked the Sorrel Quartet's recordings, but then later noticed that you had been listening to a bunch of other recordings of the quartets.  ;D
PD

On the Sorrels - I don't usually 'do' cycles (I like to kid myself my listening is more selective) but I did break my rule for the Sorrels set, available at the time at a price I couldn't resist.  I really like them, they have a wonderful hushed intensity when called for, and big dynamics at other times.  I consider their 8th to be the best quartet recording (any music) in my collection.
However - and its a big but - the huge, sumptuous Chandos sound will not be to everybody's liking in this music.  If you expect and want the sort of raw-edged Shostakovich that you get with the Borodins, Beethoven, Pacifica and Yggdrasil Quartets among others - part of that is the edgy soundscape they bring, and these recordings by the Sorrels are probably not going to work in that way.
Like Sarge I think another very strong candidate is the Mandelring Quartet.  Even though I have to admit part of the pull here is the lovely cover art - not terribly appropriate but very pretty  ;)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2021, 05:21:00 AM
My first choice in SQ cycles will always be the Borodins on Melodiya. My second pick would be the Borodins on Chandos. ;) But then probably the Pacifica Quartet on Cedille.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on December 18, 2021, 08:43:53 AM
I have the early Borodin (1 - 13) and the ca 1980 Borodin recording. Additionally I have the Emerson Box and the Pacifica and some singles by other quartets.

Just like Sarge said (did he?) usually the one I listen to I like best. I'm mostly into the double digit quartets, the ones he dedicated to the quartet members he worked with, and, lastly, one for himself.

Couple years ago I figured whom I liked best in which quartet, but these preferences do shift over time. If someone put a gun to my head I'd say A "not again, please" and B I guess I prefer the 1980 Borodin of the early set.

I have seen the Brodsky live in the entire cycle and I did not come away from that with the idea they'd changed my life, so to speak, the way a concert by the Borodin around 1985 did, where they played LvB 132 and DSCH 15.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on December 18, 2021, 11:42:36 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on December 18, 2021, 09:16:36 AM
It must have been around that time that I saw them play the same programme in London, which for me also was a life-changing moment.


Did they light the large candelabra on stage?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 18, 2021, 02:14:18 PM
I know I shouldn't laugh at poor translations into English but this one did make me chuckle.  Regarding the Solti/Decca set of 5 discs of DSCH symphonies this was written;

"In his later years Shorty became actively involved in the performance of Shostakovich's work but this time he compiled the live recorded symphonies album. The overwhelming exquisite performance of the huge organized "Symphony No. 8" is one song that can fans the fans in conjunction with the powerful ensemble of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra."

Did anyone every call Solti "Shorty" to his face and live to tell the tale......?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Daverz on December 18, 2021, 06:23:01 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 18, 2021, 02:14:18 PM
I know I shouldn't laugh at poor translations into English but this one did make me chuckle.  Regarding the Solti/Decca set of 5 discs of DSCH symphonies this was written;

"In his later years Shorty became actively involved in the performance of Shostakovich's work but this time he compiled the live recorded symphonies album. The overwhelming exquisite performance of the huge organized "Symphony No. 8" is one song that can fans the fans in conjunction with the powerful ensemble of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra."

Did anyone every call Solti "Shorty" to his face and live to tell the tale......?

Of course I googled for Solti's height.  The New York Times says he "was of medium height, trim and bald", but I couldn't find any quantification of his height. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on December 18, 2021, 07:46:15 PM
Quote from: ultralinear on December 18, 2021, 12:24:51 PM
TBH I don't remember that detail, but quite possibly they did - I do remember the performance taking place in semi-darkness.  I was a long way back in the hall so my view would not have been that great.  Nonetheless it was a very moving and remarkable experience.

Edit: My partner thinks she remembers the musicians walking onstage with instruments in one hand and candelabra in the other.

And they extinguished the candles at the end, dramatically.

It's when I understood DSCH's late chamber music has a serious theatrical component. Consider the start of the viola sonata for instance. That's not just music. It's also gesture.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 19, 2021, 02:47:18 AM
Quote from: Herman on December 18, 2021, 11:42:36 AM
Did they light the large candelabra on stage?
Quote from: ultralinear on December 18, 2021, 12:24:51 PM
TBH I don't remember that detail, but quite possibly they did - I do remember the performance taking place in semi-darkness.  I was a long way back in the hall so my view would not have been that great.  Nonetheless it was a very moving and remarkable experience.

Edit: My partner thinks she remembers the musicians walking onstage with instruments in one hand and candelabra in the other.
Love the idea of candelabra on the stage; a bit dangerous however--probably old wooden stage (building?), sheets of music (paper), and fire (flames).   :-\  Very theatrical though!

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on December 19, 2021, 03:24:41 AM
In the listening thread I mentioned the recording by the Borodins of the 4th and 8th Quartets, recorded in Moscow in 1962 for Mercury:

Quote from: aukhawk on December 17, 2021, 09:34:02 AM
Don't omit to turn the wick up when you get to No.8  ;)
In fact, why not go the whole hog and wallow in this version by the Borodins, recorded in 1962 using the splendid Mercury Living Presence (35mm) technology but in Moscow.  A very special document.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA3MzM5MC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1NTU5Mzk4Mzl9)
Shostakovich Quartets 4 & 8, Borodin Quartet, Mercury Living Presence 35mm

I wish I hadn't mentioned it!  :o  I had a listen to the 8th yesteday to remind myself - and it's AWFUL  The musicians just sound as though they're sight-reading a run-through.  And even the sound is not very good, by any standards let alone Mercury's very high ones. 
I then played the 8th from the Sorrels, and this is just a searing, white-hot performance.  Especially the 2nd and 4th movements which are played with huge attack and brio.  What a contrast!

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Lb+eZETmL._SS500_.jpg)
Shostakovich Quartets 8, 9 & 13, Sorrel Quartet, Chandos

I suppose the music was still quite new at the time of the Mercury recording - less than 2 years from composition date - could account for the wooden performance by the Borodins on this occasion.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on December 20, 2021, 02:58:31 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on December 19, 2021, 03:24:41 AM


I suppose the music was still quite new at the time of the Mercury recording - less than 2 years from composition date - could account for the wooden performance by the Borodins on this occasion.

Bingo! Many people often assume that the closer a recording is to the source and the premiere, the better it is.
Often this is not the case.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on December 20, 2021, 01:03:51 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6wXRJGq/4444371-origpic-775c11.jpg)

Dmitri Shostakovich: Cello Concerto No.1 in E-flat major, op.107. Torleif Thedéen, James DePreist, Malmö Symphony Orchestra

First listen. Sounds good. Excellent '90s digital sound (I'm a sucker for the BIS sound). Good playing. Happy to have this recording to complement the Rostropovich/Ormandy that I also have.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on January 27, 2022, 12:27:29 PM
Dmitri Shostakovich
String Quartets 3 and 8
Novus Quartet
SWR


I like this new release, streaming from Spotify, as usual. Recording values are excellent and the performances seem really accomplished. I don't know whether it captures the rawness of emotion present in some of the cycles I have particularly got to know in the last 12 months, but enjoyable nevertheless. Maybe Holocaust Memorial Day leaves me wanting more angst, and less polish.

In any case, I'd like to hear the Novus Qt perform more from the less frequently recorded DSCH SQs. 3 & 8 almost seem too easy.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 10, 2022, 03:18:50 PM
I just realised something amusing. I have two go to recordings of the 24 Preludes and Fugues, Scherbakov on Naxos and Tatiana Nikolaeva on Hyperion. I find these two fine except that Nikolaeva takes the first p & f too fast and Scherbakov takes the last p & f too fast!  ;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 10, 2022, 06:35:48 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 10, 2022, 03:18:50 PM
I just realised something amusing. I have two go to recordings of the 24 Preludes and Fugues, Scherbakov on Naxos and Tatiana Nikolaeva on Hyperion. I find these two fine except that Nikolaeva takes the first p & f too fast and Scherbakov takes the last p & f too fast!  ;D

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on February 11, 2022, 03:56:14 AM
Scherbakov seems to be one of the pianists who gets tricked by the wrong metronome marking on the first fugue, and follows his eyes instead of his ears, though he's uncomfortable enough about the metronome marking to be a bit faster than those who try to follow the wrong marking religiously.

It's Nikolayeva who is in the right ballpark, though she's a little faster than most other 'right' pianists.

I still have 4 prelude & fugue recordings to test out when I can focus on it. Maybe in the new house...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 11, 2022, 04:20:51 AM
Quote from: Madiel on February 11, 2022, 03:56:14 AM
Scherbakov seems to be one of the pianists who gets tricked by the wrong metronome marking on the first fugue, and follows his eyes instead of his ears, though he's uncomfortable enough about the metronome marking to be a bit faster than those who try to follow the wrong marking religiously.

It's Nikolayeva who is in the right ballpark, though she's a little faster than most other 'right' pianists.

I still have 4 prelude & fugue recordings to test out when I can focus on it. Maybe in the new house...
Is there some confusion about how they were marked or errors created in the copies or changes by the composer?  Don't know the story here.

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on February 11, 2022, 04:35:25 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on February 11, 2022, 04:20:51 AM
Is there some confusion about how they were marked or errors created in the copies or changes by the composer?  Don't know the story here.

PD

There are misprints in the printed editions, at least the initial ones and I'm not sure how many got corrected. One of the things that is widely regarded as a misprint is on the first fugue, where it had a crotchet/quarter note=92 for the tempo marking and it should have been a minim/half note=92, because the fugue is written in 2/2 not 4/4. So while Shostakovich himself acknowledged that his metronome markings were a rough guide only, the 'rough guide' that was printed ended up being half the speed that it should have been.

If you follow the misprinted metronome marking, what you get is not remotely Moderato. Not if you have 2 beats per bar like you're supposed to. Sure, it would get you Moderato in 4/4, but the piece isn't in 4/4.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on February 11, 2022, 06:07:04 AM
Quote from: Madiel on February 11, 2022, 04:35:25 AM
There are misprints in the printed editions, at least the initial ones and I'm not sure how many got corrected. One of the things that is widely regarded as a misprint is on the first fugue, where it had a crotchet/quarter note=92 for the tempo marking and it should have been a minim/half note=92, because the fugue is written in 2/2 not 4/4. So while Shostakovich himself acknowledged that his metronome markings were a rough guide only, the 'rough guide' that was printed ended up being half the speed that it should have been.

If you follow the misprinted metronome marking, what you get is not remotely Moderato. Not if you have 2 beats per bar like you're supposed to. Sure, it would get you Moderato in 4/4, but the piece isn't in 4/4.
Ah, thanks for the explanation.

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 08, 2022, 06:47:44 AM
Just purchased:

(https://storage.highresaudio.com/2019/11/05/xhftdy-shostakovi-preview-m3.jpg)

(https://arcanadotfm.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/shostakovich-gadfly.jpg?w=584&h=572)

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/275/MI0003275737.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 08, 2022, 04:04:49 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 08, 2022, 06:47:44 AM
Just purchased:

(https://storage.highresaudio.com/2019/11/05/xhftdy-shostakovi-preview-m3.jpg)

(https://arcanadotfm.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/shostakovich-gadfly.jpg?w=584&h=572)

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/275/MI0003275737.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Cool, Ray! I've been curious about The Bedbug forever!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Symphonic Addict on March 08, 2022, 08:45:42 PM
I've come to think the 14th in G minor like his most "Brittenian". Not even Mahlerian. There is something most bittersweet here and of chamber proportions.

That very symphony is playing here, under Kondrashin. Supremely powerful.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on March 08, 2022, 09:03:07 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on March 08, 2022, 08:45:42 PM
I've come to think the 14th in G minor like his most "Brittenian". Not even Mahlerian. There is something most bittersweet here and of chamber proportions.

That very symphony is playing here, under Kondrashin. Supremely powerful.

The 14th has become a favorite of mine over the past few years. I used to not be too keen on it, but I find it to be powerfully expressive and alluring nowadays. Yes, Britten certainly comes to mind here in some of the movements.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 09, 2022, 12:33:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 08, 2022, 09:03:07 PM
The 14th has become a favorite of mine over the past few years. I used to not be too keen on it, but I find it to be powerfully expressive and alluring nowadays. Yes, Britten certainly comes to mind here in some of the movements.

It's the only one that I hardly know at all  :o
Must rectify that.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on March 09, 2022, 12:54:04 AM
14th is one of the best in my opinion. Symphony, song cycle... whatever it is, it's a fine work.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 09, 2022, 04:48:06 AM
Quote from: Madiel on March 09, 2022, 12:54:04 AM
14th is one of the best in my opinion. Symphony, song cycle... whatever it is, it's a fine work.
Good to know - thanks.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 09, 2022, 05:27:31 AM
I am looking forward to a performance of No. 10 this weekend.  So nice to be attending concerts again. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on March 09, 2022, 07:08:03 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 09, 2022, 05:27:31 AM
I am looking forward to a performance of No. 10 this weekend.  So nice to be attending concerts again. :)

Envious! Such a powerful work, heard in person. (And agree about attending concerts.) Who is performing it?

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on March 09, 2022, 07:18:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 09, 2022, 12:33:17 AM
It's the only one that I hardly know at all  :o
Must rectify that.

Yes, you must give it another listen, Jeffrey. Give the Haitink or Barshai performance a listen.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 09, 2022, 08:15:56 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 09, 2022, 05:27:31 AM
I am looking forward to a performance of No. 10 this weekend.  So nice to be attending concerts again. :)

Fabulous! I first heard the Tenth live, played by the Clevelanders!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Leo K. on March 18, 2022, 10:55:10 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51hYcsCgoTL._SY580_.jpg)

Listening to the 14th Symphony today with my mind on a lot of sad things. What a testament this work remains, and vastly powerful. This Rostropovich recording is amazing. Those strings, those castanets and xylophone!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 18, 2022, 02:57:28 PM
Nice!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 18, 2022, 03:27:30 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 09, 2022, 07:18:32 AM
Yes, you must give it another listen, Jeffrey. Give the Haitink or Barshai performance a listen.
Will do John - thanks for the recommendations.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: LKB on March 18, 2022, 06:38:26 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 18, 2022, 03:27:30 PM
Will do John - thanks for the recommendations.

+1

I've always had a lot of respect for Haitink's Shostakovich. His takes on the various symphonies may not have been the most impassioned, but listening to his recordings of 5, 11 and 13 with the RCO frequently leave me thinking that he was leading the finest orchestra in the world.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 19, 2022, 05:47:40 AM
Quote from: Brewski on March 09, 2022, 07:08:03 AM
Envious! Such a powerful work, heard in person. (And agree about attending concerts.) Who is performing it?

--Bruce

It was the LA Philharmonic.  Fantastic performance!  The audience was still filling in when I took the picture, so it wasn't as sparse as it seems.  Every work received an instant standing ovation.  I was just two or three rows behind the percussion, and I forgot how loud percussion is in this symphony but it was a wonderful experience played with power and precision. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: bhodges on March 19, 2022, 06:28:35 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 19, 2022, 05:47:40 AM
It was the LA Philharmonic.  Fantastic performance!  The audience was still filling in when I took the picture, so it wasn't as sparse as it seems.  Every work received an instant standing ovation.  I was just two or three rows behind the percussion, and I forgot how loud percussion is in this symphony but it was a wonderful experience played with power and precision.

OK, now I'm really envious! Disney Hall is one of my favorite venues in the world (after going about a dozen times when it opened). Big fan of Ludovic Morlot, too. And coincidentally, I'm hearing Sergio Tiempo soon, here in Philadelphia. Alas, he's not playing Prokofiev, nor the Ginastera originally programmed, but the Chopin No. 1 (which I don't care for).

Anyway, thanks for sharing the experience, and the great photo. The interior of the hall is stunning.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 30, 2022, 06:00:05 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 19, 2022, 05:47:40 AM
It was the LA Philharmonic.  Fantastic performance!  The audience was still filling in when I took the picture, so it wasn't as sparse as it seems.  Every work received an instant standing ovation.  I was just two or three rows behind the percussion, and I forgot how loud percussion is in this symphony but it was a wonderful experience played with power and precision.

Quote from: Brewski on March 19, 2022, 06:28:35 AM
OK, now I'm really envious! Disney Hall is one of my favorite venues in the world (after going about a dozen times when it opened). Big fan of Ludovic Morlot, too. And coincidentally, I'm hearing Sergio Tiempo soon, here in Philadelphia. Alas, he's not playing Prokofiev, nor the Ginastera originally programmed, but the Chopin No. 1 (which I don't care for).

Anyway, thanks for sharing the experience, and the great photo. The interior of the hall is stunning.

--Bruce
Looks like it!  Love all of the woodwork!  Very chic and modern.  :)

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 17, 2022, 11:57:42 AM
Just revisiting the old Kondrashin/Moscow PO cycle.  Will any orchestra - Russian or other - ever be able to play this music with this kind of ferocious intensity ever again?  Were these performances born of the society/political regime in which they were made in the sense that the players "got" what this music is about in a way that no Western orchestra ever could.  I accept that in many cases these were the versions that "imprinted" Shostakovich for me (c/o the EMI/Melodiya LP box of the symphonies)

(https://revolutions33.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/5D465466-9211-44BC-8095-D09EE5DA0C92.jpeg)

so I might not be wholly objective here(!) but goodness these are GREAT performances!!!!!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2022, 12:08:03 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 17, 2022, 11:57:42 AM
Just revisiting the old Kondrashin/Moscow PO cycle.  Will any orchestra - Russian or other - ever be able to play this music with this kind of ferocious intensity ever again?  Were these performances born of the society/political regime in which they were made in the sense that the players "got" what this music is about in a way that no Western orchestra ever could.  I accept that in many cases these were the versions that "imprinted" Shostakovich for me (c/o the EMI/Melodiya LP box of the symphonies)

(https://revolutions33.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/5D465466-9211-44BC-8095-D09EE5DA0C92.jpeg)

so I might not be wholly objective here(!) but goodness these are GREAT performances!!!!!

There's something about these older Soviet Era recordings that just can't be beat. And not just Kondrashin, but Svetlanov, Rozhdestvensky, Mravinsky et. al. as well. They knew this music incredibly well and knew that the best way to get across is by sheer emotional impact and playing as if "your life depended on it". The whole no holds barred attitude is why they're successful. Too many conductors get on the podium these days and micromanage everything instead of just letting the music speak for itself. One can control an orchestra, but they also need to know when to unleash the dogs. This is something that doesn't happen a lot these days unfortunately. They're so worried about playing out-of-tune or making a mistake and believe that it must be "note perfect". I'm sorry, but this just doesn't work in Shostakovich. Anyway, this is my roundabout way of saying, I agree with you. :D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 17, 2022, 10:39:39 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2022, 12:08:03 PM
There's something about these older Soviet Era recordings that just can't be beat. And not just Kondrashin, but Svetlanov, Rozhdestvensky, Mravinsky et. al. as well. They knew this music incredibly well and knew that the best way to get across is by sheer emotional impact and playing as if "your life depended on it". The whole no holds barred attitude is why they're successful. Too many conductors get on the podium these days and micromanage everything instead of just letting the music speak for itself. One can control an orchestra, but they also need to know when to unleash the dogs. This is something that doesn't happen a lot these days unfortunately. They're so worried about playing out-of-tune or making a mistake and believe that it must be "note perfect". I'm sorry, but this just doesn't work in Shostakovich. Anyway, this is my roundabout way of saying, I agree with you. :D

Absolutely agree with the other Soviet conducotrs you mention and indeed everything else you say.  Interestingly, I was listneing just last week to this version of the "Leningrad"

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61sH2yOy6BL._SR600%2C315_PIWhiteStrip%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C35_PIStarRatingFOUR%2CBottomLeft%2C360%2C-6_SR600%2C315_ZA7%2C445%2C290%2C400%2C400%2CAmazonEmberBold%2C12%2C4%2C0%2C0%2C5_SCLZZZZZZZ_FMpng_BG255%2C255%2C255.jpg)

which seems to have had generally very positive reviews.  But my overall reaction was "well-played but...meh..."  In fact your description of micro-managing and being perfect exactly fits what I feel about this performance.  Love or loath the Leningrad its a work that needs to be "unleashed" and played as a matter of life or death.  That was part of the reason I returned to the Kondrashin set yesterday - to reset my inner ear!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on May 17, 2022, 10:56:46 PM
I'm iffy about this issue. Yeah, I like some of the old USSR recordings, too. However there seems to be a cliché that Russian music (including Tchaikovsky, who really wanted to compose French music) should be played with urgency overriding beauty, and I'm not sure these are mutually exclusive things.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on May 17, 2022, 10:58:59 PM
Yes, there's something very special about those old Kondrashin/USSR SO recordings (I recently bought the CD coupling symphonies 3 and 5). The same goes for his unrivalled recordings of Miaskovsky's 6th and 15th symphonies.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 17, 2022, 11:12:47 PM
Quote from: Herman on May 17, 2022, 10:56:46 PM
I'm iffy about this issue. Yeah, I like some of the old USSR recordings, too. However there seems to be a cliché that Russian music (including Tchaikovsky, who really wanted to compose French music) should be played with urgency overriding beauty, and I'm not sure these are mutually exclusive things.

I know what you mean - and this is where the issue of "imprinting" is definitely a factor for each listener.  I completely accept that for DSCH my inner ear 'hears' the old Soviet sound pre-eminently.  I would disagree with you regarding Russian as opposed to Soviet music.  I do think Tchaikovsky needs to be played with passion and drama but I am not sure that those qualities are always best served by the old Soviet/Brutalist school of orchestral playing(!)  I adore Svetlanov nearly without reservation but his version of "The Nutcracker" is quite horrible - but then Mravinsky's/Leningrad Pathetique is genuinely one of the great performances. 

I think Mirror Image's description/concern of micro-managing and placing precision above passion is very valid and that perhaps DSCH is less well served than some composers by that approach....?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on May 18, 2022, 04:51:28 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 17, 2022, 11:57:42 AM
Just revisiting the old Kondrashin/Moscow PO cycle.  Will any orchestra - Russian or other - ever be able to play this music with this kind of ferocious intensity ever again? 

That is one of my favorite sets.  Kondrashin's real strength is that he keeps the momentum up in the slow movements so that the musical is lyrical without turning into an indulgant slog.  But I like the very balanced Petrenko and Barshai sets just as much and the SQ in those sets is far superior. 

I think that there is also a set of the symphonies conducted by all the different great Russian conductors and they have some really fine performances.  My favorite 8th comes from Mravinsky.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on May 18, 2022, 05:27:53 AM
Quote from: DavidW on May 18, 2022, 04:51:28 AM
That is one of my favorite sets.  Kondrashin's real strength is that he keeps the momentum up in the slow movements so that the musical is lyrical without turning into an indulgant slog.  But I like the very balanced Petrenko and Barshai sets just as much and the SQ in those sets is far superior. 

I think that there is also a set of the symphonies conducted by all the different great Russian conductors and they have some really fine performances.  My favorite 8th comes from Mravinsky.

How does Mavrinsky's No. 8 compare with Haitink's No. 8 on Decca?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: krummholz on May 18, 2022, 06:23:43 AM
Quote from: relm1 on May 18, 2022, 05:27:53 AM
How does Mavrinsky's No. 8 compare with Haitink's No. 8 on Decca?

Isn't Mravinsky's the one with the odd recording flaw that causes it to be pitched up a semitone?

It's been a long time since I heard the Mravinsky so I can't compare the two readings, but I find Haitink's 8th superb.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on May 18, 2022, 07:49:03 AM
That is supposedly fixed in the latest reissues.

I rather agree with the appreciation of Soviet-era orchestras, conductors and recordings for Shostakovich.  And so in consequence I've never warmed to Haitink's cycle which is the antithesis of all these things.  Although I did buy many of them back in the day, because at the time they felt like a big upgrade over the Melodiya issues.  I never play them now.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jo498 on May 18, 2022, 10:01:57 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 17, 2022, 11:57:42 AM
Just revisiting the old Kondrashin/Moscow PO cycle.  Will any orchestra - Russian or other - ever be able to play this music with this kind of ferocious intensity ever again?  Were these performances born of the society/political regime in which they were made in the sense that the players "got" what this music is about in a way that no Western orchestra ever could.  I accept that in many cases these were the versions that "imprinted" Shostakovich for me (c/o the EMI/Melodiya LP box of the symphonies)

(https://revolutions33.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/5D465466-9211-44BC-8095-D09EE5DA0C92.jpeg)

This seems not the "pure Kondrashin" but the "mixed Melodiya" set. Was the mix always the same? (I think it existed in a CD incarnation early on but later it was usually only Kondrashin?)
From an LP guide I find
Kondrashin 1-6,8,9,11,13
Svetlanov 7, 10
Mravinsky 12
Barshai 14 [there was also one with Rostropovich instead of Barshai]
Maxim Dmitrievich S. 15
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 18, 2022, 10:24:49 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 18, 2022, 10:01:57 AM
This seems not the "pure Kondrashin" but the "mixed Melodiya" set. Was the mix always the same? (I think it existed in a CD incarnation early on but later it was usually only Kondrashin?)
From an LP guide I find
Kondrashin 1-6,8,9,11,13
Svetlanov 7, 10
Mravinsky 12
Barshai 14 [there was also one with Rostropovich instead of Barshai]
Maxim Dmitrievich S. 15

This LP box set was the original/only option for a complete set of the symphonies and actually the choices were well made.  The Maxim 5 & 15 were excellent, Barshai conducted the premiere of 14, Mravinsky's 12 made it seem like a serious work and Svetlanov is very good in his two as well.  On CD early on there was a Kondrashin only cycle originally on French melodiya (I think) which has had various iterations since.  As far as I know this exact LP box has never been repeated exactly on CD although of course individual performances do exist - not sure the Maxim No.5 has made it to CD?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 18, 2022, 11:04:21 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 17, 2022, 10:39:39 PM
Absolutely agree with the other Soviet conducotrs you mention and indeed everything else you say.  Interestingly, I was listneing just last week to this version of the "Leningrad"

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61sH2yOy6BL._SR600%2C315_PIWhiteStrip%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C35_PIStarRatingFOUR%2CBottomLeft%2C360%2C-6_SR600%2C315_ZA7%2C445%2C290%2C400%2C400%2CAmazonEmberBold%2C12%2C4%2C0%2C0%2C5_SCLZZZZZZZ_FMpng_BG255%2C255%2C255.jpg)

which seems to have had generally very positive reviews.  But my overall reaction was "well-played but...meh..."  In fact your description of micro-managing and being perfect exactly fits what I feel about this performance.  Love or loath the Leningrad its a work that needs to be "unleashed" and played as a matter of life or death.  That was part of the reason I returned to the Kondrashin set yesterday - to reset my inner ear!

I think the Leningrad is a phenomenal piece of music. It really is. The Adagio alone contains some of Shostakovich's most heartbreaking music. I can understand how such a symphony could come under scrutiny by the "classical police" and all those pesky, artsy-fartsy holier-than-thou critics who turn their nose up at anything that isn't Beethoven or Brahms. Thankfully, this kind of mentality has never seeped its way into my own thinking. Anyway, I haven't heard any of those Noseda recordings, but considering how much I dislike The Barbican's acoustic, I doubt I'd ever give these performances a listen --- dry, hollowed out sound in this hall. But, yes, I think the problem with many of these conductors today is their quest for perfection over excitement and pedal-to-the-metal emotional drive, which is something that works wonders in Shostakovich and a lot of these Soviet Era composers.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 18, 2022, 11:42:47 AM
Quote from: Herman on May 17, 2022, 10:56:46 PM
I'm iffy about this issue. Yeah, I like some of the old USSR recordings, too. However there seems to be a cliché that Russian music (including Tchaikovsky, who really wanted to compose French music) should be played with urgency overriding beauty, and I'm not sure these are mutually exclusive things.

Indeed. Not every Russian composer fits into the no-holds-barred Soviet Era conducting style. I'm thinking here of Ravel's orchestration of Pictures at an Exhibition, Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade, Lyadov's The Enchanted Lake and countless other examples. These works do not do well with this kind of conducting, so I'll definitely agree with you in this respect.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on May 19, 2022, 12:18:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 18, 2022, 11:04:21 AM
I can understand how such a symphony could come under scrutiny by the "classical police" and all those pesky, artsy-fartsy holier-than-thou critics who turn their nose up at anything that isn't Beethoven or Brahms.

It's nothing to do with Beethoven or Brahms.  It's simply that with Shostakovich, there's a lot of 2nd-rate (or worse) mixed in with the good.  For me, life is far too short to spend time on anything less than excellent.

Anyhoo, even though I don't like the Leningrad, here is a very good free-to-view video stream of it conducted by that micro-manager-in-chief, Teodor Currentzis (SWRO) :
https://www.swr.de/swrclassic/symphonieorchester/aexavarticle-swr-83346.html (https://www.swr.de/swrclassic/symphonieorchester/aexavarticle-swr-83346.html)

He brings entertainment to the long boring march by bringing the various orchestral sections to their feet in turn - Count Basie-style.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on May 19, 2022, 01:16:15 AM
Quote from: relm1 on May 18, 2022, 05:27:53 AM
How does Mavrinsky's No. 8 compare with Haitink's No. 8 on Decca?

Some of Haitink's DSCH cycle is terrific, the only problem with the Concertgebouw 8th is the Decca folks really went to town on rendering the famed concertgebouw acoustic, creating a caricature of reverb which isn't really convenient in this music (same with the eighties Beethoven cycle on Philips).

I have sat in this hall a lot and I have never heard what I'm hearing on this DCH8 disc. Hilariously, Chandos does the same engineering trick with the Nat Scottish Orchestra.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on May 19, 2022, 02:58:05 AM
The long march in the Leningrad isn't boring if it's done well. The only recording I know is Petrenko... and I find it gripping.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: krummholz on May 19, 2022, 03:48:48 AM
Quote from: Herman on May 19, 2022, 01:16:15 AM
Some of Haitink's DSCH cycle is terrific, the only problem with the Concertgebouw 8th is the Decca folks really went to town on rendering the famed concertgebouw acoustic, creating a caricature of reverb which isn't really convenient in this music (same with the eighties Beethoven cycle on Philips).

I have sat in this hall a lot and I have never heard what I'm hearing on this DCH8 disc. Hilariously, Chandos does the same engineering trick with the Nat Scottish Orchestra.

Interesting. I have both recordings, and I've never noticed excessive reverb on either. Of the two, I find the Haitink far more gripping than the Jarvi (I assume that's the NSO disc you're referring to).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Herman on May 19, 2022, 04:47:21 AM
Neeme Järvi is just not such a great conductor.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 19, 2022, 06:10:53 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on May 19, 2022, 12:18:15 AM
It's nothing to do with Beethoven or Brahms.  It's simply that with Shostakovich, there's a lot of 2nd-rate (or worse) mixed in with the good.  For me, life is far too short to spend time on anything less than excellent.

Anyhoo, even though I don't like the Leningrad, here is a very good free-to-view video stream of it conducted by that micro-manager-in-chief, Teodor Currentzis (SWRO) :
https://www.swr.de/swrclassic/symphonieorchester/aexavarticle-swr-83346.html (https://www.swr.de/swrclassic/symphonieorchester/aexavarticle-swr-83346.html)

He brings entertainment to the long boring march by bringing the various orchestral sections to their feet in turn - Count Basie-style.

You're free to dislike whatever you choose just as I'm free to tell you I think the Leningrad is an extraordinary work --- warts and all.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 19, 2022, 06:56:50 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 19, 2022, 06:10:53 AM
You're free to dislike whatever you choose just as I'm free to tell you I think the Leningrad is an extraordinary work --- warts and all.

You and me both!!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: LKB on May 19, 2022, 07:28:51 AM
Quote from: krummholz on May 19, 2022, 03:48:48 AM
Interesting. I have both recordings, and I've never noticed excessive reverb on either. Of the two, I find the Haitink far more gripping than the Jarvi (I assume that's the NSO disc you're referring to).

I have several of the Haitink/Shostakovich RCO releases on CD, and none of them seem overly reverberant to me. But then, I've had them a long time and perhaps I've grown accustomed to it...
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 19, 2022, 11:12:33 AM
Quote from: Madiel on May 19, 2022, 02:58:05 AM
The long march in the Leningrad isn't boring if it's done well. The only recording I know is Petrenko... and I find it gripping.

Not boring, at all, in good hands. Honi soit qui mal y pense
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on May 19, 2022, 04:31:37 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 19, 2022, 11:12:33 AM
Not boring, at all, in good hands. Honi soit qui mal y pense

Karl, who is your "good hands" suggestion please?  I LOVE Bernstein's CSO recording and I've not heard it bettered, but what you?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on May 19, 2022, 04:36:14 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 19, 2022, 11:12:33 AM
Not boring, at all, in good hands. Honi soit qui mal y pense

Correct me if I'm wrong but one of the first performances was done with only half an orchestra, woefully under-prepared and it was still met with enthusiastic praise (excepting the critics of course).  It seems like one of those lightning in a bottle musical works, capturing the mood of a people at a certain time.

So like MI and Swan I say yes warts and all.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on May 19, 2022, 07:16:50 PM
Quote from: relm1 on May 19, 2022, 04:31:37 PM
Karl, who is your "good hands" suggestion please?  I LOVE Bernstein's CSO recording and I've not heard it bettered, but what you?

You didn't ask me, but I love Svetlanov and Rozhdestvensky. Nothing boring about either of these conductors.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 19, 2022, 11:06:31 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 19, 2022, 07:16:50 PM
You didn't ask me, but I love Svetlanov and Rozhdestvensky. Nothing boring about either of these conductors.

This goes slightly off topic but it does pertain to the 1st movement march in the Leningrad....  For me there is almost always a "sweet-spot" tempo that conveys exactly the right feel to a work/passage.  Most often this is where something could be characterised as a march or a dance.  The key is to find a speed that is poised and controlled yet with an inexorable forward momentum.  The big mistake is to equate speed (ie a faster tempo) with energy.  Now the sheer length of the Leningrad march really tests a conductor (and by extension an orchestra - but mainly a conductor) to combine a sweet-spot tempo with subtle musical points that draw both the music and the listener forward.  The Leningrad march can indeed sound boring but that is because the conductor has been tested and found wanting.  For the same reason - the great conductors - Bernstein/Svetlanov/Rozhdestvensky can make this same music a shattering experience which rises far above the "on the page" mundanity of the material.

Two other pieces that are really prone to needing the sweet spot tempo - Bolero and the opening of Elgar 1.  No coincidence the repetitiousness of Bolero is often cited as being "boring" but with the right sense of inevitability the piece becomes so much more than just an exercise in orchestration.  With the Elgar that opening "great hope for the future" theme needs stately grandeur but NOT either a sense of leaden empire-inspired wallow or too fast glibness.  You are being set up for its transending return 50 minutes later - one of the great symphonic conclusions.  Boult and Handley are two of very few conductors who can hit that tempo exactly right.  In each case the difference between sweet spot and "wrong" might be seconds but when its right its RIGHT!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on May 19, 2022, 11:21:25 PM
I don't find 'Bolero' boring at all, nor the Leningrad Symphony, which I discovered through Ancerl's fine old recording on LP. I remember liking the cover art on the LP - sadly reminiscent of scenes from Ukraine today.
(//)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on May 20, 2022, 02:15:12 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 19, 2022, 11:06:31 PM
For the same reason - the great conductors - Bernstein/Svetlanov/Rozhdestvensky can make this same music a shattering experience which rises far above the "on the page" mundanity of the material.

I have that Bernstein recording and I'm a big admirer of Bernstein's recordings in general - but even he can't elevate the Leningrad 1st movement above the level of mediocrity. 
I've seen Rozhdestvensky live, conducting a Tchaikovsky symphony, and he was ... surprisingly demonstrative.  A real arm-waver.  His orchestra that day was the Leningrad Philharmonic, a superbly drilled soviet machine.  The contrast between the two was stark - and, fortunately, the orchestra won.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: staxomega on May 20, 2022, 12:14:29 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 17, 2022, 11:57:42 AM
Just revisiting the old Kondrashin/Moscow PO cycle.  Will any orchestra - Russian or other - ever be able to play this music with this kind of ferocious intensity ever again?  Were these performances born of the society/political regime in which they were made in the sense that the players "got" what this music is about in a way that no Western orchestra ever could.  I accept that in many cases these were the versions that "imprinted" Shostakovich for me (c/o the EMI/Melodiya LP box of the symphonies)

(https://revolutions33.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/5D465466-9211-44BC-8095-D09EE5DA0C92.jpeg)

so I might not be wholly objective here(!) but goodness these are GREAT performances!!!!!

I think the odds of that style being replicated are slim. There might be some conductor that can bring the tempos that Kondrashin had, but you'll still miss out on the "charm" of the sound of those brash Russian orchestras. Paradoxically I think that less than perfect playing also adds to the intensity (along with Kondrashin's tempos).

This is a trip back, it was the first Shostakovich cycle I bought, Melodiya CD reissue box with the spectacles on the cover. Back in 2002 or 2003 with the big Headfi classical thread if anyone else was a member there. I clearly remember DarkAngel (a GMGer as well) singing the praises of this box, and the symphonies/interpretations were unlike anything I had ever heard before, not a bad first cycle! :)

What would have been nice is if Kondrashin recorded the full cycle with the RCO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 20, 2022, 12:17:06 PM
Quote from: relm1 on May 19, 2022, 04:31:37 PM
Karl, who is your "good hands" suggestion please?  I LOVE Bernstein's CSO recording and I've not heard it bettered, but what you?

The Lenny/CSO recording is magnificent! The recording which sold me on the Leningrad was Ančerl/Cz Phil.  I also really like Temirkanov/St Pedtersburg Phil and Shostakovich/Prague Symphony.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on May 20, 2022, 12:20:29 PM
Quote from: DavidW on May 19, 2022, 04:36:14 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but one of the first performances was done with only half an orchestra, woefully under-prepared and it was still met with enthusiastic praise (excepting the critics of course).

That was one astounding occasion:

https://www.youtube.com/v/KOkBEqtGUI8
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 23, 2022, 10:10:50 AM
Shostakovich Symphony Cycles - currently I own the first three boxes below, i.e. Barshai, Kitajenko, & Sanderling - I've been spending the morning and early afternoon listening to selected works from each box and also several recordings of Petrenko on Spotify - all sound quite good to me, and also to the reviewers in the attachment, for those interested.  Now I do not listen to these often and could be happy w/ fewer boxes but now I'm considering Petrenko - YIKES, don' t need another Shosty box!  :laugh:

So, for those who probably enjoy these works more than me and for new GMGers and guests looking for their first or second collection of Shostakovich Symphonies, what are your current favorites - and I'm sure some of the older releases (e.g. Kondrashin among many others) will be mentioned.  Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51ej1QOegCL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51HEaZ0gaEL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51CEIn6+rbL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61D8vQ-CieL._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on June 23, 2022, 10:27:36 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 23, 2022, 10:10:50 AM
Shostakovich Symphony Cycles - currently I own the first three boxes below, i.e. Barshai, Kitajenko, & Sanderling - I've been spending the morning and early afternoon listening to selected works from each box and also several recordings of Petrenko on Spotify - all sound quite good to me, and also to the reviewers in the attachment, for those interested.  Now I do not listen to these often and could be happy w/ fewer boxes but now I'm considering Petrenko - YIKES, don' t need another Shosty box!  :laugh:

So, for those who probably enjoy these works more than me and for new GMGers and guests looking for their first or second collection of Shostakovich Symphonies, what are your current favorites - and I'm sure some of the older releases (e.g. Kondrashin among many others) will be mentioned.  Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51ej1QOegCL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51HEaZ0gaEL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51CEIn6+rbL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61D8vQ-CieL._SL1200_.jpg)

Dave, the Petrenko set gets my seal of approval. Not a perfect set and it has some mediocre performances, but generally the performances are of a high quality.

Particularly terrific standout performances for me are the 4th, 6th, 9th, 10th and 14th.

Some people have a lukewarm opinion (John - MI) regarding the Petrenko set. But generally speaking, you could do a lot worse, I think.

I think it is fairly consistent as a complete set and compliments the Barshai set (which is my other complete set) very nicely.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2022, 11:10:11 AM
Kondrashin and Haitink. I recently bought Kitajenko. Also, I rather like the Maxim Shostakovich set on Supraphon, Jansons on EMI and Rostropovich.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 23, 2022, 11:24:35 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on June 23, 2022, 10:27:36 AM
Dave, the Petrenko set gets my seal of approval. Not a perfect set and it has some mediocre performances, but generally the performances are of a high quality.

Particularly terrific standout performances for me are the 4th, 6th, 9th, 10th and 14th.

Some people have a lukewarm opinion (John - MI) regarding the Petrenko set. But generally speaking, you could do a lot worse, I think.

I think it is fairly consistent as a complete set and compliments the Barshai set (which is my other complete set) very nicely.

Quote from: vandermolen on June 23, 2022, 11:10:11 AM
Kondrashin and Haitink. I recently bought Kitajenko. Also, I rather like the Maxim Shostakovich set on Supraphon, Jansons on EMI and Rostropovich.

Thanks Guys for the comments above - the Barshai will stay (has been longest in my collection) and I really like Kitajenko - this morning I listened to Petrenko on Spotify doing 5, 9, & 10 - will setup a playlist there and do some Petrenko vs. Sanderling comparisons -  8)  Dave
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on June 23, 2022, 11:33:53 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 23, 2022, 10:10:50 AM
Shostakovich Symphony Cycles - currently I own the first three boxes below, i.e. Barshai, Kitajenko, & Sanderling - I've been spending the morning and early afternoon listening to selected works from each box and also several recordings of Petrenko on Spotify - all sound quite good to me, and also to the reviewers in the attachment, for those interested.  Now I do not listen to these often and could be happy w/ fewer boxes but now I'm considering Petrenko - YIKES, don' t need another Shosty box!  :laugh:

So, for those who probably enjoy these works more than me and for new GMGers and guests looking for their first or second collection of Shostakovich Symphonies, what are your current favorites - and I'm sure some of the older releases (e.g. Kondrashin among many others) will be mentioned.  Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51ej1QOegCL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51HEaZ0gaEL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51CEIn6+rbL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61D8vQ-CieL._SL1200_.jpg)

You have my top three, there. How odd. In order, Kitajenko, Petrenko, Sanderling. I'm not saying others aren't more fêted, but these are the three to which I listen most.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2022, 12:11:10 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 23, 2022, 11:10:11 AM
Kondrashin and Haitink. I recently bought Kitajenko. Also, I rather like the Maxim Shostakovich set on Supraphon, Jansons on EMI and Rostropovich.

I'm another fan of Shostakovich fils, Jansons and Kitajenko, possibly in that order.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on June 23, 2022, 02:03:03 PM
I chose Petrenko when selecting my own (only) set. Janssons was the runner-up in that process.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 23, 2022, 07:47:44 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 23, 2022, 11:10:11 AM
Kondrashin and Haitink. I recently bought Kitajenko. Also, I rather like the Maxim Shostakovich set on Supraphon, Jansons on EMI and Rostropovich.

Yes to all of these picks! I also like Barshai and Rozhdestvensky (despite the less than stellar audio quality of his cycle).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 23, 2022, 10:55:50 PM
I don't disagree with any of the mentioned preferences for complete cycles - only Petrenko leaves me oddly unmoved most of the time for reasons I really cannot explain.  My surprise is how rarely Caetani's cycle ever gets any kind of mention.  Distinctly individual and powerful interpretations I think, played remarkably well by his Italian orchestra - the SACD sound is pretty up front and exciting too.  Not the most polished by any means but a valid take on the whole set.....

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61WIFT3QBjL._AC_SX450_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on June 24, 2022, 01:36:10 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 23, 2022, 10:55:50 PM
I don't disagree with any of the mentioned preferences for complete cycles - only Petrenko leaves me oddly unmoved most of the time for reasons I really cannot explain.  My surprise is how rarely Caetani's cycle ever gets any kind of mention.  Distinctly individual and powerful interpretations I think, played remarkably well by his Italian orchestra - the SACD sound is pretty up front and exciting too.  Not the most polished by any means but a valid take on the whole set.....

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61WIFT3QBjL._AC_SX450_.jpg)
I have one or two of those recordings and find them excellent.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on June 24, 2022, 06:27:16 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 23, 2022, 10:55:50 PM
I don't disagree with any of the mentioned preferences for complete cycles - only Petrenko leaves me oddly unmoved most of the time for reasons I really cannot explain.  My surprise is how rarely Caetani's cycle ever gets any kind of mention.  Distinctly individual and powerful interpretations I think, played remarkably well by his Italian orchestra - the SACD sound is pretty up front and exciting too.  Not the most polished by any means but a valid take on the whole set.....

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61WIFT3QBjL._AC_SX450_.jpg)

Yes, I agree. The Caetani is a fine cycle. I think I seem to recall where he was let go from a position because he was programming too much Shostakovich. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on June 24, 2022, 06:34:05 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 23, 2022, 10:55:50 PM
I don't disagree with any of the mentioned preferences for complete cycles - only Petrenko leaves me oddly unmoved most of the time for reasons I really cannot explain.  My surprise is how rarely Caetani's cycle ever gets any kind of mention.  Distinctly individual and powerful interpretations I think, played remarkably well by his Italian orchestra - the SACD sound is pretty up front and exciting too.  Not the most polished by any means but a valid take on the whole set.....

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61WIFT3QBjL._AC_SX450_.jpg)

I've not heard the entire cycle, but the ones I've heard, I like very much!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on June 24, 2022, 07:45:12 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 23, 2022, 11:10:11 AM
Kondrashin and Haitink. I recently bought Kitajenko. Also, I rather like the Maxim Shostakovich set on Supraphon, Jansons on EMI and Rostropovich.

I agree that Kondrashin and Haitink are the missing great ones in Dave's collection.  I also like those sets that you mentioned but I don't think that they are up there with Kondrashin and Haitink.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on June 24, 2022, 07:49:38 AM
Also not to be missed are the individual recordings Mravinsky made including one of my favorite 8ths!

(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d00001e02645c9be96b3b5f77ab31e292)

And of course Ormandy's 4th is stunning and was my introduction to that symphony.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51ogGV4j9oL.jpg)

Finally Bernstein's 7th wow! desert island material

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81296-SqlzL._SL1412_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 24, 2022, 09:31:31 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 24, 2022, 07:49:38 AM
Also not to be missed are the individual recordings Mravinsky made including one of my favorite 8ths!

(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d00001e02645c9be96b3b5f77ab31e292)

And of course Ormandy's 4th is stunning and was my introduction to that symphony.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51ogGV4j9oL.jpg)

Finally Bernstein's 7th wow! desert island material

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81296-SqlzL._SL1412_.jpg)

+1, +1, +1 !! (so many great recordings!!)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: staxomega on July 15, 2022, 08:50:46 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on June 23, 2022, 11:33:53 AM
You have my top three, there. How odd. In order, Kitajenko, Petrenko, Sanderling. I'm not saying others aren't more fêted, but these are the three to which I listen most.

Any suggestions for symphonies to sample form the Michael Sanderling set? Or how would people characterize them? Thanks.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on July 16, 2022, 12:58:30 AM
Quote from: hvbias on July 15, 2022, 08:50:46 AM
Any suggestions for symphonies to sample form the Michael Sanderling set? Or how would people characterize them? Thanks.

I'm not sure I'm able to comment helpfully on what sets them apart from other interpretations, or what particularly stands out, but 5 and 7 are as good as any in the series.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: staxomega on July 16, 2022, 04:02:45 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 16, 2022, 12:58:30 AM
I'm not sure I'm able to comment helpfully on what sets them apart from other interpretations, or what particularly stands out, but 5 and 7 are as good as any in the series.

Thanks, I had this on my long list of things to sample and then it went out of print in the blink of an eye. Any reason you have them behind Kitajenko or Petrenko? I like both of these, so I'm just curious.

My heavy listening has consisted of the St. Petersburg Qt cycle of the string quartets thanks to amw's recommendation. These performances have blown me away, among my top 10 purchases in the last five years. They have a blown up quality to them that bridge the gap with the chamber symphonies and have all the angularity, angst, and sharp biting qualities of the first incomplete Borodin cycle. I will have to make a more detailed writeup in the Shostakovich String Quartets thread.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on July 16, 2022, 09:35:27 AM
Quote from: hvbias on July 16, 2022, 04:02:45 AM
Thanks, I had this on my long list of things to sample and then it went out of print in the blink of an eye. Any reason you have them behind Kitajenko or Petrenko? I like both of these, so I'm just curious.

My heavy listening has consisted of the St. Petersburg Qt cycle of the string quartets thanks to amw's recommendation. These performances have blown me away, among my top 10 purchases in the last five years. They have a blown up quality to them that bridge the gap with the chamber symphonies and have all the angularity, angst, and sharp biting qualities of the first incomplete Borodin cycle. I will have to make a more detailed writeup in the Shostakovich String Quartets thread.

I don't think I have any greater rationale other than reading positive reviews, then deciding to focus on those in a huge array of choices. Because I don't read music and can't follow a musical score, I don't know which interpretation sits closest to the composer's original intention. I can decide which reading I enjoy most, but there are so many skilled conductors/orchestras/recording engineers/acoustic architects that I find it hard to make anything other than deeply subjective picks. There are so many recordings to choose from that I often can't really tell which I prefer - particularly when relative timings are pretty similar. It often feels a bit 'finger in the wind'. Not just with DSCH, either.

These three I have heard lots 🙂. I don't think I am very sophisticated, tbh 🤔 😁
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on July 16, 2022, 09:41:12 AM
St. Petersburg was my introduction.  I think I bought them off of BRO back in the day.  Excellent, driven performances!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 16, 2022, 10:34:53 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 16, 2022, 09:41:12 AM
St. Petersburg was my introduction.  I think I bought them off of BRO back in the day.  Excellent, driven performances!

Led by Temirkanov? Great account of the Leningrad!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on July 16, 2022, 11:31:20 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 16, 2022, 10:34:53 AM
Led by Temirkanov? Great account of the Leningrad!

No we're talking string quartets.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/072/MI0001072638.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on July 16, 2022, 11:38:21 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 16, 2022, 11:31:20 AM
No we're talking string quartets.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/072/MI0001072638.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Ah!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 25, 2022, 12:10:57 AM
I'm working my way through this box;

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/~fIAAOSwmtNiKT-v/s-l500.png)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51LHnAiHb6L._SY450_.jpg)

At its heart are a series of blazing live performances of DSCH symhponies.  I can't help but think that THIS is the orchestral sound Shostakovich had in his inner ear when he was writing his music.  Its not polished, its frequently crude in gesture and execution but goodness me its a compelling listen.  I can't remember the last time I listened to the Fleischmann/Shostakovich Rothschild's Violin - I only know the Rotterdamm version with Rohzdestvensky - that is good but this is infinitely more convincing because of the sound of the orchestra.  Symphony 4 gets a remarkable performance.  The only duffer are the "British and American Folksongs" with comically chewed up English and possibly the worst ever baritone/bass on record who kind of declaims his way through "Johnny comes marching home" with no actual notes discernable.

https://open.spotify.com/track/43ciJ7jnXlunbWHX9GSGq9
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jo498 on July 25, 2022, 12:16:07 AM
Are these live performances similar to Rozhdesvensky's studio recordings from the 1980s (Eurodisc/BMG/Melodiya)? The latter might not be easily findable but there were both on single discs and on a series of twofers.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: MusicTurner on July 25, 2022, 12:18:04 AM
No, I think they are much less polished, also sonically. That Brilliant box obviously has some interesting, other repertoire too.

Ideally, I'd like to have the complete studio symphonies set, first and foremost, but I only have some of the (impressive) individual releases, and the Brilliant box.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 25, 2022, 02:11:23 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 25, 2022, 12:16:07 AM
Are these live performances similar to Rozhdesvensky's studio recordings from the 1980s (Eurodisc/BMG/Melodiya)? The latter might not be easily findable but there were both on single discs and on a series of twofers.

I can't disagree with Music Turner's comment re polish and recording quality.  But actually that's probably why I enjoy them as total experiences more than the old Olympia cycle (that's the edition I know).  The studio versions are very impressive but would not be my No.1 studio cycle
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Leo K. on October 10, 2022, 08:25:15 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61y94Bxn1uL._SY580_.jpg)                                                                                                                                                         
Neeme Järvi's account of the Shostakovich 7 is now my favorite 7th. Wow. I really like that it moves along faster then a lot of other recordings. Also, the Violin Concerto No.2 is so incredible and devastating. I've been listening to various recordings of the No.2 - great stuff all.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 10, 2022, 08:54:01 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on October 10, 2022, 08:25:15 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61y94Bxn1uL._SY580_.jpg)                                                                                                                                                         
Neeme Järvi's account of the Shostakovich 7 is now my favorite 7th. Wow. I really like that it moves along faster then a lot of other recordings. Also, the Violin Concerto No.2 is so incredible and devastating. I've been listening to various recordings of the No.2 - great stuff all.
Yes, It's a fine version.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Mirror Image on October 10, 2022, 10:58:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 10, 2022, 08:54:01 AM
Yes, It's a fine version.

+ 1 I love all of Järvi's Shostakovich recordings or, at least, the ones I own.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 10, 2022, 12:09:16 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 10, 2022, 10:58:48 AM
+ 1 I love all of Järvi's Shostakovich recordings or, at least, the ones I own.
Me too John, especially no 4 and 8.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Leo K. on October 10, 2022, 01:38:33 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 10, 2022, 12:09:16 PM
Me too John, especially no 4 and 8.
I have No.8 now too, and plan to listen to this soon. :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on October 10, 2022, 02:42:18 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 10, 2022, 10:58:48 AM
+ 1 I love all of Järvi's Shostakovich recordings or, at least, the ones I own.

Me, four. Quality stuff.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Leo K. on October 21, 2022, 07:03:29 AM
(https://groups.google.com/u/1/group/Symphonyshare/attach/b14422a68af07/Cover.jpg?part=0.1&view=1)
Yevgeny Nesterenko, bass
USSR Radio and TV Symphony Orchestra
Maxim Shostakovich, conductor
Recorded in 1975
(2 CD release by the label Venezia with seldom recorded song cycles)

I've been enjoying the Suite on Verses of Michelangelo Buonarroti, Opus.145 (orchestral version) - I always imagine this as the 16th Symphony (Wikipedia, citing: Derek C. Hulme, Dmitri Shostakovich Catalogue: The First Hundred Years and Beyond, p. 555).

What a work of power and descriptive orchestration! I haven't followed along with the text yet - just listening to the music first, soaking it all in.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 21, 2022, 07:26:33 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on October 21, 2022, 07:03:29 AM
(https://groups.google.com/u/1/group/Symphonyshare/attach/b14422a68af07/Cover.jpg?part=0.1&view=1)
Yevgeny Nesterenko, bass
USSR Radio and TV Symphony Orchestra
Maxim Shostakovich, conductor
Recorded in 1975
(2 CD release by the label Venezia with seldom recorded song cycles)

I've been enjoying the Suite on Verses of Michelangelo Buonarroti, Opus.145 (orchestral version) - I always imagine this as the 16th Symphony (Wikipedia, citing: Derek C. Hulme, Dmitri Shostakovich Catalogue: The First Hundred Years and Beyond, p. 555).

What a work of power and descriptive orchestration! I haven't followed along with the text yet - just listening to the music first, soaking it all in.


Magnificent!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on October 21, 2022, 04:32:37 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on October 21, 2022, 07:03:29 AM
(https://groups.google.com/u/1/group/Symphonyshare/attach/b14422a68af07/Cover.jpg?part=0.1&view=1)
Yevgeny Nesterenko, bass
USSR Radio and TV Symphony Orchestra
Maxim Shostakovich, conductor
Recorded in 1975
(2 CD release by the label Venezia with seldom recorded song cycles)

I've been enjoying the Suite on Verses of Michelangelo Buonarroti, Opus.145 (orchestral version) - I always imagine this as the 16th Symphony (Wikipedia, citing: Derek C. Hulme, Dmitri Shostakovich Catalogue: The First Hundred Years and Beyond, p. 555).

What a work of power and descriptive orchestration! I haven't followed along with the text yet - just listening to the music first, soaking it all in.

It's much more complicated. 

"According to reports circulating in the West shortly before Shostakovich's death,
he was said to have completed two movements of a Sixteenth Symphony. A brief
report in Soviet Weekly, April 1976, announced that 'Shostakovich's last work' had
been performed in a completion and orchestration by Andrei Petrov. Nonetheless
no such arrangement appears in the 1980 catalogue of Petrov's own compositions
– and the composer's son, Maxim, reinforced that no such work was known to him.
However, Maxim Shostakovich told Evgeni Nesterenko during the rehearsals for the
'Suite on Verses of Michelangelo Buonarroti', Op. 145, that his father considered
Op.145 to be his Sixteenth Symphony."

https://www.sikorski.de/media/files/1/12/190/249/336/8953/schostakowitsch_werkverzeichnis.pdf?src=files/1/12/190/249/336/8953/schostakowitsch_werkverzeichnis.pdf

Frankly, I don't buy that op. 145 was what Shostakovich meant as his No. 16 but rather that he considered the song cycle symphonic in scope.  Our problem with this is the noise Solomon Volkov introduced at that time which influenced Maxim as well.  Virtually everyone distanced themselves from Volkov later, but the damage was done. Basically, I'm very suspicious of this attribution being legitimate. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 22, 2022, 06:48:56 AM
Quote from: relm1 on October 21, 2022, 04:32:37 PM
Frankly, I don't buy that op. 145 was what Shostakovich meant as his No. 16 but rather that he considered the song cycle symphonic in scope.

That's basically how I read the remark.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Leo K. on October 22, 2022, 07:44:16 AM
Fascinating! Thank you for that further information!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on October 25, 2022, 05:48:57 AM
Well I could buy it was the 16th symphony given the nature of the 13th and the 14th.

I must listen to it again soon. I have both the piano and orchestral versions and have vague memories of preferring the orchestral.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Leo K. on October 27, 2022, 07:47:55 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51CItkRyGQL._SY580_.jpg)

Wow! This is a incredible recording.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Leo K. on October 28, 2022, 09:29:30 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41ZSteqU-9L._SY580_.jpg)

I'm becoming a fan of the Petrenko box - listening to the 6th right now. Aces all around. Love that trill motive in the first movement, makes me recall Beethoven's late style.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on October 28, 2022, 10:03:33 AM
A great cycle. I collected the individual discs over the years it was released.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on October 28, 2022, 04:10:10 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on October 28, 2022, 09:29:30 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41ZSteqU-9L._SY580_.jpg)

I'm becoming a fan of the Petrenko box - listening to the 6th right now. Aces all around. Love that trill motive in the first movement, makes me recall Beethoven's late style.

I thought very highly of his No. 5 which is saying alot considering how many classic and excellent versions exist. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vers la flamme on October 29, 2022, 01:41:49 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on October 28, 2022, 09:29:30 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41ZSteqU-9L._SY580_.jpg)

I'm becoming a fan of the Petrenko box - listening to the 6th right now. Aces all around. Love that trill motive in the first movement, makes me recall Beethoven's late style.

I listened to it the other day. I'll have to listen again today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 29, 2022, 01:54:43 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on October 27, 2022, 07:47:55 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51CItkRyGQL._SY580_.jpg)

Wow! This is a incredible recording.
+1

Quote from: Leo K. on October 28, 2022, 09:29:30 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41ZSteqU-9L._SY580_.jpg)

I'm becoming a fan of the Petrenko box - listening to the 6th right now. Aces all around. Love that trill motive in the first movement, makes me recall Beethoven's late style.
I share your view, Petrenko's Shostakovich box set is absolutely stunning, one of the best I've listened along with the Haitink and the Jansons.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 30, 2022, 12:52:55 AM
I remember Shostakovich's death in 1975 and newspaper reports that he was working on his 16th Symphony.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on October 30, 2022, 05:42:44 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 30, 2022, 12:52:55 AM
I remember Shostakovich's death in 1975 and newspaper reports that he was working on his 16th Symphony.

And I remember reading that this Soviet composer had arranged the first two movements of the 16th Symphony into a performable version, but I can't remember his name or find further details.  Petrov?

https://youtu.be/25GX2XNXg-M?t=19

During the 2015 premiere of Orango, the musicologist said there were boxes of unlabeled sketches and unfinished scores from Shostakovich where from time to time they make a big discovery (Orango was one of them).  Who knows, maybe the unfinished and unlabeled sketches of No. 16 are there.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on October 30, 2022, 06:26:22 AM
Quote from: relm1 on October 30, 2022, 05:42:44 AM
And I remember reading that this Soviet composer had arranged the first two movements of the 16th Symphony into a performable version, but I can't remember his name or find further details.  Petrov?

https://youtu.be/25GX2XNXg-M?t=19

During the 2015 premiere of Orango, the musicologist said there were boxes of unlabeled sketches and unfinished scores from Shostakovich where from time to time they make a big discovery (Orango was one of them).  Who knows, maybe the unfinished and unlabeled sketches of No. 16 are there.
Most interesting!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 31, 2022, 03:02:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 30, 2022, 06:26:22 AM
Most interesting!
I wonder how often composers actually return to those boxes/drawers, etc. of sketches to work on a piece further?  Or is it more often a graveyard that only gets added into over time?

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 31, 2022, 03:46:56 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 31, 2022, 03:02:45 AM
I wonder how often composers actually return to those boxes/drawers, etc. of sketches to work on a piece further?  Or is it more often a graveyard that only gets added into over time?

PD

Don't forget Elgar was forever returning to notebooks and sketches of themes for use in often much-later works.  He made a point of jotting down any theme whenever and wherever it occured to him without the slightest clue about when it might end up in a piece (or not!)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on October 31, 2022, 05:51:55 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 31, 2022, 03:02:45 AM
I wonder how often composers actually return to those boxes/drawers, etc. of sketches to work on a piece further?  Or is it more often a graveyard that only gets added into over time?

PD

It's very common.  Basically, for Shostakovich and Mahler and Sibelius, there were loads of unfinished materials that usually the widow or family bequeaths to an institution.  The problem, it takes careful study to know what to make of it because lots of it are just unnamed sketches, ideas not fully worked out, etc.   Mahler's 10 sketches indicate lots of unused material.  Just imagine if these were not in a notebook but random pages, scholars would know it's late Mahler, but not necessarily what work it belongs to or was excised/aborted from. From personal experience, I have lots of abandoned works - some are just phrases, some are finished but I don't like them.  When working on a commercial project, I had to come up with themes for several characters (hero, villain, fate, romance, etc.) and each of those had five or six different versions.  All are finished but only one was selected.  Sometimes, maybe years later, I revisit some of those rejected cues and might turn it in to a finished piece.  Sometimes there are works I completely forgot about for whatever reason.  You can imagine over a lifetime how many sketches and abandoned projects accumulate.  Prokofiev had sketches of unfinished operas and Symphony No. 8 when he died but knowing what sketch belongs to what just isn't clear.  Creative people are basically always coming up with ideas but not necessarily using them.  It is my opinion that what is getting marketed as fragments from Sibelius's Symphony No. 8 are simply late ideas not related to the 8th symphony.  They are unlabeled and to me really show he was struggling to find his muse.  You might enjoy this essay with images of the discovered fragments but note, it isn't agreed that these belong to the 8th symphony. 

http://bis.se/BIS-2065-essay/BIS-2065_essay.pdf

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Wanderer on October 31, 2022, 06:57:14 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 31, 2022, 03:02:45 AM
I wonder how often composers actually return to those boxes/drawers, etc. of sketches to work on a piece further?

Medtner, who was in the habit of jotting his musical ideas down in notebooks, based the three cycles of Vergessene Weisen (Forgotten Melodies) on these snippets, themes and motifs committed to paper over the years (and then, as the title suggests, forgotten).
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on October 31, 2022, 01:25:48 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on October 31, 2022, 06:57:14 AM
Medtner, who was in the habit of jotting his musical ideas down in notebooks, based the three cycles of Vergessene Weisen (Forgotten Melodies) on these snippets, themes and motifs committed to paper over the years (and then, as the title suggests, forgotten).

Ah, I didn't know that was the origin of the title! Cool.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Jo498 on October 31, 2022, 02:01:34 PM
I would never have thought that this title was referring to literally forgotten sketches! Rather some romantic notion like Liszt's Valse oubliée and similar pieces.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 31, 2022, 04:47:47 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 31, 2022, 02:01:34 PM
I would never have thought that this title was referring to literally forgotten sketches! Rather some romantic notion like Liszt's Valse oubliée and similar pieces.

Indeed!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 01, 2022, 03:12:54 AM
For those of you who are currently composing, what system do you use to keep track of your fragments and works that you aren't completely happy with and think that you might want to rework it/them in the future?  And is almost all of your work in digital format these days?

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 01, 2022, 05:43:05 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 01, 2022, 03:12:54 AM
For those of you who are currently composing, what system do you use to keep track of your fragments and works that you aren't completely happy with and think that you might want to rework it/them in the future?  And is almost all of your work in digital format these days?

PD

For me, I save everything.  You never know when you might want to revisit it or in what context.  I go through a brain storming phase where I don't apply much criticism because that comes later.  In this stage, ideas and options are the goal.  You review it later and find some ideas work better than others and those you refine to a very small list until you ultimately decide on one, you'll live with.  Those other ideas are saved off.  Interestingly, sometimes, years later you look through those rejected ideas and might like them or think it shows some promise in ways you might not have realized at first...just needing refinement and more polish.  But vice versa might be true too...sometimes you liked something that you cringe at later.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 01, 2022, 07:18:58 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 01, 2022, 05:43:05 AM
For me, I save everything.  You never know when you might want to revisit it or in what context.  I go through a brain storming phase where I don't apply much criticism because that comes later.  In this stage, ideas and options are the goal.  You review it later and find some ideas work better than others and those you refine to a very small list until you ultimately decide on one, you'll live with.  Those other ideas are saved off.  Interestingly, sometimes, years later you look through those rejected ideas and might like them or think it shows some promise in ways you might not have realized at first...just needing refinement and more polish.  But vice versa might be true too...sometimes you liked something that you cringe at later.

That's very interesting - thankyou for sharing.  But how do you jot down those intial ideas?  Still on manuscript with a pencil or straight into a music programme?

One thing I wonder for musicologists of the future - there is a real fascination in seeing a composer's working out with bars added/deleted, expression and tempo marks amended - even when material is "missing" it can be seen where it was.  Unless every iteration of a score is digitally saved all you have these days is the final 'pristine' version of a work..... perhaps I'm very wrong about how this process works!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 01, 2022, 07:27:16 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 01, 2022, 05:43:05 AM
For me, I save everything.  You never know when you might want to revisit it or in what context.  I go through a brain storming phase where I don't apply much criticism because that comes later.  In this stage, ideas and options are the goal.  You review it later and find some ideas work better than others and those you refine to a very small list until you ultimately decide on one, you'll live with.  Those other ideas are saved off.  Interestingly, sometimes, years later you look through those rejected ideas and might like them or think it shows some promise in ways you might not have realized at first...just needing refinement and more polish.  But vice versa might be true too...sometimes you liked something that you cringe at later.

Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 01, 2022, 07:18:58 AM
That's very interesting - thankyou for sharing.  But how do you jot down those intial ideas?  Still on manuscript with a pencil or straight into a music programme?

One thing I wonder for musicologists of the future - there is a real fascination in seeing a composer's working out with bars added/deleted, expression and tempo marks amended - even when material is "missing" it can be seen where it was.  Unless every iteration of a score is digitally saved all you have these days is the final 'pristine' version of a work..... perhaps I'm very wrong about how this process works!
That's one of the things that I was wondering.  And also, how do you catalogue your fragments?  Or you don't?  Paper airplanes aimed at an open box?  Just kidding here!  ;)  Do you date them and jot down any thoughts on either the file or your paperwork, etc.?

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 01, 2022, 05:02:46 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 01, 2022, 07:18:58 AM
That's very interesting - thankyou for sharing.  But how do you jot down those intial ideas?  Still on manuscript with a pencil or straight into a music programme?

One thing I wonder for musicologists of the future - there is a real fascination in seeing a composer's working out with bars added/deleted, expression and tempo marks amended - even when material is "missing" it can be seen where it was.  Unless every iteration of a score is digitally saved all you have these days is the final 'pristine' version of a work..... perhaps I'm very wrong about how this process works!

Generally, I sketch in paper and pencil.  Not everyone does it this way, but it works for me.  It's just because I'm faster that way.  I know others who are faster straight in the DAW (digital audio workstation) and others who are faster in full score.  I like sketching and flushing out in full score later.   I break it down to the core ideas BEFORE crafting it all out.  I think this is the equivalent of a writer having an understanding of the backstory of a character before they write the story.  For instance, Hamlet is introduced with his loving father being dead at the hands of his uncle.  The backstory of Hamlet growing up loving his father doesn't really need to be stated.  It's understood.  Similarly, a theme might have a backstory that doesn't need to be stated...it's clear.  I generally approach musical through literal ways.  I've worked on projects where I had to adapt incomplete sketches from another composer (perhaps deceased).  In that case, you get your head around their style and sound world.  What first appears very difficult to translate eventually reveals itself becoming clear.  What's important is to understand translation isn't for the beginner but for the veteran.  It's sort of like translating a poem.  I think that's the same in any complex effort.  If we were talking about advanced rock climbing, you'd sort of plan out the approach.  Some of those approaches might be mistakes.  Novices will have more fails than successes.  Those that are accomplished can demonstrate a history of persevering through their failures.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roy Bland on November 07, 2022, 05:27:56 PM
Exhaustive essay on 24 Preludes and Fugues
https://research.gold.ac.uk/id/eprint/28775/4/MUS_thesis_Ursova_2009.pdf


Because it is mainly on DSCH I moved it here

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on November 08, 2022, 01:15:04 AM
Quote from: Roy Bland on November 07, 2022, 05:27:56 PM
Exhaustive essay on 24 Preludes

...and Fugues.

Which is important because Shostakovich also wrote "24 Preludes".

And it's not an essay, it's a thesis. And it's not simply on Shostakovich op.87, but also on a whole bunch of other works by other Soviet composers.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: staxomega on November 13, 2022, 02:52:05 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 16, 2022, 09:35:27 AM
I don't think I have any greater rationale other than reading positive reviews, then deciding to focus on those in a huge array of choices. Because I don't read music and can't follow a musical score, I don't know which interpretation sits closest to the composer's original intention. I can decide which reading I enjoy most, but there are so many skilled conductors/orchestras/recording engineers/acoustic architects that I find it hard to make anything other than deeply subjective picks. There are so many recordings to choose from that I often can't really tell which I prefer - particularly when relative timings are pretty similar. It often feels a bit 'finger in the wind'. Not just with DSCH, either.

These three I have heard lots 🙂. I don't think I am very sophisticated, tbh 🤔 😁

I've listened to M. Sanderling's cycle all the way through twice now, it's truly outstanding. If one wants modern sound M. Sanderling (no complete cycle from his old man, he was stunning in many of them), Petrenko or Caetani would all be easy recommendations.

I think Shostakovich is who I have the most number of complete symphony cycles of. Beethoven might eclipse him because of those big conductor box sets, but Shostakovich is the one I bought every single cycle separate from those conductor mega boxes. This music is too bloody good and varied in style.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: foxandpeng on November 14, 2022, 02:02:28 PM
Quote from: hvbias on November 13, 2022, 02:52:05 PM
I've listened to M. Sanderling's cycle all the way through twice now, it's truly outstanding. If one wants modern sound M. Sanderling (no complete cycle from his old man, he was stunning in many of them), Petrenko or Caetani would all be easy recommendations.

I think Shostakovich is who I have the most number of complete symphony cycles of. Beethoven might eclipse him because of those big conductor box sets, but Shostakovich is the one I bought every single cycle separate from those conductor mega boxes. This music is too bloody good and varied in style.

Petrenko and Michael Sanderling continue to be my first choice!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 15, 2022, 12:43:37 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on November 14, 2022, 02:02:28 PM
Petrenko and Michael Sanderling continue to be my first choice!
Roughly when were these two sets recorded?

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Daverz on November 15, 2022, 01:53:37 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 15, 2022, 12:43:37 AM
Roughly when were these two sets recorded?

PD

The Sanderling recordings were originally released individually, each coupled with a different Beethoven symphony, from about 2015 to 2018.  Then they released separate boxes of just Shostakovich and Beethoven symphonies.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71JwbN3uXgL._SL1214_.jpg)

The Petrenko set was recorded between 2009 and 2014: https://www.naxos.com/CatalogueDetail/?id=8.501111

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on November 15, 2022, 10:57:08 AM
Quote from: Daverz on November 15, 2022, 01:53:37 AM
The Sanderling recordings were originally released individually, each coupled with a different Beethoven symphony, from about 2015 to 2018.  Then they released separate boxes of just Shostakovich and Beethoven symphonies.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71JwbN3uXgL._SL1214_.jpg)

The Petrenko set was recorded between 2009 and 2014: https://www.naxos.com/CatalogueDetail/?id=8.501111
Thanks Dave!  :)

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on December 03, 2022, 04:02:19 PM
Quote from: staxomega on November 13, 2022, 02:52:05 PMI've listened to M. Sanderling's cycle all the way through twice now, it's truly outstanding. If one wants modern sound M. Sanderling (no complete cycle from his old man, he was stunning in many of them), Petrenko or Caetani would all be easy recommendations.

I think Shostakovich is who I have the most number of complete symphony cycles of. Beethoven might eclipse him because of those big conductor box sets, but Shostakovich is the one I bought every single cycle separate from those conductor mega boxes. This music is too bloody good and varied in style.
I completed the traversal of Michael Sanderling's Shostakovich Symphony cycle.  It's a very fine cycle over all.  I see what staxomega means that it's a more "modern" sound to this cycle.  I thought highly of the first disc, Symphonies 1-3.  Nothing can hide the weak ending of No. 3 but the rest of the work faired better in this style of interpretation as a modernist work with a somewhat sterile interpretation rather than a late romantic interpretation.  I thought No. 1 and 2 were quite strong.  Not that impressed with his version of No. 4.  The competition is stiff and the climax here just felt underwhelming.  One of the things that I love about No. 4 is how it switched from modernism to post romanticism – bridging eras of the composer but also epochs of music.  I feel like Sanderling played it safe rather than on the brink of catastrophe which is a very important part of Shostakovich and his subtext.  No. 5 and 6 were admirable.  No. 7 pales to my favorite, Bernstein/CSO which was revelatory.  From 8 to 15, very solid.  I felt the cycle got better but I doubt any one of them tops my individual favorite list. 

The recording quality is crystal clear and modern.  This is a respectable interpretation but won't knock off my favorites.  To me, the best overall cycle is Haitink/LPO/RCO but any symphony has individual versions that are better from a different interpreter.  Okko Kamu/CBSO is my favorite No. 13 for example.  Kurt Sanderling is my favorite No .15.  I think quite highly of Maxim Shostakovich with the right orchestras – great with LSO and vintage Soviet.  Ok with Prague, the orchestra isn't up to the task.  For modern cycles, I quite like Petrenko/RLPO (his No. 5 is stronger than Michael Sanderling's) overall but  Petrenko's No. 11 was rushed compared to M. Sanderling. 

One quick point I failed to mention - hearing M. Sanderling cycle in sequence is probably the first time I've heard the entire cycle in sequence in decades and it does make me hear these in a new way and that's a very significant accomplishment as I've grown with these symphonies all my life.  I think there is something to be said for a conductor who makes you hear something you've heard thousands of times as if you've heard it anew even if it's not all to your taste.  It compels your attention and it's possible a more mainstream interpretation wouldn't do that.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on December 03, 2022, 04:09:54 PM
Quote from: relm1 on December 03, 2022, 04:02:19 PMI completed the traversal of Michael Sanderling's Shostakovich Symphony cycle.  It's a very fine cycle over all.  I see what staxomega means that it's a more "modern" sound to this cycle.  I thought highly of the first disc, Symphonies 1-3.  Nothing can hide the weak ending of No. 3 but the rest of the work faired better in this style of interpretation as a modernist work with a somewhat sterile interpretation rather than a late romantic interpretation.  I thought No. 1 and 2 were quite strong.  Not that impressed with his version of No. 4.  The competition is stiff and the climax here just felt underwhelming.  One of the things that I love about No. 4 is how it switched from modernism to post romanticism – bridging eras of the composer but also epochs of music.  I feel like Sanderling played it safe rather than on the brink of catastrophe which is a very important part of Shostakovich and his subtext.  No. 5 and 6 were admirable.  No. 7 pales to my favorite, Bernstein/CSO which was revelatory.  From 8 to 15, very solid.  I felt the cycle got better but I doubt any one of them tops my individual favorite list. 

The recording quality is crystal clear and modern.  This is a respectable interpretation but won't knock off my favorites.  To me, the best overall cycle is Haitink/LPO/RCO but any symphony has individual versions that are better from a different interpreter.  Okko Kamu/CBSO is my favorite No. 13 for example.  Kurt Sanderling is my favorite No .15.  I think quite highly of Maxim Shostakovich with the right orchestras – great with LSO and vintage Soviet.  Ok with Prague, the orchestra isn't up to the task.  For modern cycles, I quite like Petrenko/RLPO (his No. 5 is stronger than Michael Sanderling's) overall but  Petrenko's No. 11 was rushed compared to M. Sanderling. 

Very interesting, thanks.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 16, 2023, 12:55:22 PM
These three being ordered from Presto:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk5NjQwMS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NDN9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA0NjU4My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDczMTQ1NDF9)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81VeGRz+a7L._AC_SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on February 16, 2023, 01:11:41 PM
The Pacifica is my favorite set, and the Mandelring is laid back and melodic.  The antithesis of Pacifica.  They should complement each other well.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 16, 2023, 01:14:40 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 16, 2023, 01:11:41 PMThe Pacifica is my favorite set, and the Mandelring is laid back and melodic.  The antithesis of Pacifica.  They should complement each other well.

I've had the Borodin Melodiya set and Fitzwilliam as well for quite some time. It will be a lot of fun to compare and contrast all four sets.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on February 24, 2023, 04:15:34 AM
Something I thought about just now while posting in New Releases and it would fit better in here. Tier list of Shostakovich symphonies:

A: 4, 5, 7, 10, 11
B: 1, 6, 12
C: 8, 9, 13, 15
D: 2, 3, 14
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 24, 2023, 05:23:12 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on February 24, 2023, 04:15:34 AMSomething I thought about just now while posting in New Releases and it would fit better in here. Tier list of Shostakovich symphonies:

A: 4, 5, 7, 10, 11
B: 1, 6, 12
C: 8, 9, 13, 15
D: 2, 3, 14

Are these your personal favourites tiered?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on February 24, 2023, 07:30:26 AM
Yes.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 24, 2023, 09:17:53 AM
The Fourteenth was one of the first eight of the symphonies which I came to know. It may not be everyone's money, but I think it superb.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 24, 2023, 09:20:43 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on February 24, 2023, 04:15:34 AMSomething I thought about just now while posting in New Releases and it would fit better in here. Tier list of Shostakovich symphonies:

A: 4, 5, 7, 10, 11
B: 1, 6, 12
C: 8, 9, 13, 15
D: 2, 3, 14

My own list at the moment:

T1: 4,5
T2: 7,8,10,14,15
T3: 1,6,9,11
T4: 12,13
T5: 2,3

NO.12 use to in my personal favourite five in the earlier days.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: JBS on February 24, 2023, 12:50:20 PM
Hmm, for me
T1 4/8/11
T1a 14 (the cantata structure and limited instrumentarium make me think it belongs in a different category, even if DSCH called it a symphony)
T2 5/7/10/12/13
T3 1/6/9/15
T4 2/3 (again, even if DSCH called them symphonies, I don't think of them as symphonies)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 24, 2023, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: Ephraim Bonus on February 24, 2023, 12:50:20 PMHmm, for me
T1 4/8/11
T1a 14 (the cantata structure and limited instrumentarium make me think it belongs in a different category, even if DSCH called it a symphony)
T2 5/7/10/12/13
T3 1/6/9/15
T4 2/3 (again, even if DSCH called them symphonies, I don't think of them as symphonies)
Most interesting. Viz. 2 & 3: It does nothing to gainsay your point, but at least in the case of the Second, the agit-prop dept of the State Publishing House specifically commissioned a "symphonic work," thus the designation ... the requirement of a symphony with a choral finale derived of course from the vulgar idolatry of the Beethoven Op. 125 (a piece which, as we both know, survives any misuse over the centuries.) No such requirement obtained for the Third, and I suppose Shostakovich stuck with the template for its having general appeal in that milieu.

As to the Fourteenth, in February 1966, Shostakovich wrote to his friend Izaak Glikman that he had started writing a  Fourteenth Symphony, to work on which he retired to Repino (outside Petersburg.) In fact, the piece proved to be the second Cello Concerto, conceived for Rostropovich, and which the composer later described as "a kind of fourteenth symphony with a solo cello part (which might anachronistically strike us as analogous to Harold en Italie.) While orchestrating Musorgsky's Songs and Dances of DeathShostakovich identified strongly with its angry protest against man's mere temporal existence (Elizabeth Wilson.) He wrote to Glikman on 1 Feb 1969 (from hospital) that he had begun an oratorio for two soli voices and chamber ensemble. On 17 Feb he reported having finished the piece: "I am not going to call it an oratorio — one can't, as an oratorio calls for a choir. My work doesn't include a choir, just two solo singers soprano and bass One probably couldn't call it a symphony either. For the first time in my life, I remain perplexed as to what name to give a composition of mine." So your dissatisfaction with the Op. 135's designation as a Symphony has a good pedigree.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: JBS on February 24, 2023, 03:51:02 PM
Thank you for that info.
It's interesting in light of that quote that he chose to call the 2nd Cello Concerto a concerto and not follow Prokofiev's example by calling it a Symphony Concertante.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 24, 2023, 04:45:16 PM
My pleasure, @Ephraim Bonus 
The post was a good excuse to crack open the Wilson afresh (which, in fact, rests on my nightstand) I was glad I checked because one thing I was going to type "from memory" turned out to be wrong, so I nipped that in the bud.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: aukhawk on February 25, 2023, 06:02:32 AM
T1:   1, 11, 15, Violin Concerto 1
T2:   5, Stephan Razin, Cello Concerto 1
T3:   6, 8, 9, 10, Cello Concerto 2

T4 (meh):  4, 7, 13, Violin Concerto 2, Piano Concerto 2
T5:   2, 3, 14, Piano Concerto 1

9th circle of hell:   ;D   12
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on February 25, 2023, 06:06:22 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on February 25, 2023, 06:02:32 AM9th circle of hell:   ;D   12


 ;D

The Violin Concerto No. 1 would also be in my overall Shostakovich Tier 1.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on February 25, 2023, 01:30:06 PM
Quote from: Karl Tirebiter Henning on February 24, 2023, 01:59:13 PMMost interesting. Viz. 2 & 3: It does nothing to gainsay your point, but at least in the case of the Second, the agit-prop dept of the State Publishing House specifically commissioned a "symphonic work," thus the designation ... the requirement of a symphony with a choral finale derived of course from the vulgar idolatry of the Beethoven Op. 125 (a piece which, as we both know, survives any misuse over the centuries.) No such requirement obtained for the Third, and I suppose Shostakovich stuck with the template for its having general appeal in that milieu.

As to the Fourteenth, in February 1966, Shostakovich wrote to his friend Izaak Glikman that he had started writing a  Fourteenth Symphony, to work on which he retired to Repino (outside Petersburg.) In fact, the piece proved to be the second Cello Concerto, conceived for Rostropovich, and which the composer later described as "a kind of fourteenth symphony with a solo cello part (which might anachronistically strike us as analogous to Harold en Italie.) While orchestrating Musorgsky's Songs and Dances of DeathShostakovich identified strongly with its angry protest against man's mere temporal existence (Elizabeth Wilson.) He wrote to Glikman on 1 Feb 1969 (from hospital) that he had begun an oratorio for two soli voices and chamber ensemble. On 17 Feb he reported having finished the piece: "I am not going to call it an oratorio — one can't, as an oratorio calls for a choir. My work doesn't include a choir, just two solo singers soprano and bass One probably couldn't call it a symphony either. For the first time in my life, I remain perplexed as to what name to give a composition of mine." So your dissatisfaction with the Op. 135's designation as a Symphony has a good pedigree.

If I recall correctly, he considered labelling the Michelangelo songs as symphony No.16. So just where the boundary lies on these things is an interesting question.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 25, 2023, 02:34:26 PM
Quote from: Madiel on February 25, 2023, 01:30:06 PMIf I recall correctly, he considered labelling the Michelangelo songs as symphony No.16. So just where the boundary lies on these things is an interesting question.
Berlioz really felt that Beethoven had released that horse from the barn: in his personal numeration, he simply considered the fantastique, Harold and R & J symphonies.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Albion on March 01, 2023, 04:45:15 PM
He was a great composer for the ballet and this is just such a brilliant set (CHAN 7000/1), Neeme Jarvi at his peppery best - even the "Festive Overture" which I normally can't abide zips along and awakens occasional interest, plus you get bits from "Lady Macbeth" in the guise of "Katerina Ismailova". The RSNO play like demons...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514POB9YSHL._SY450_.jpg)


As with their frankly chaotic Bax catalogue, Chandos should box up all of their wonderful Shostakovich and Prokofiev and flog it far and wide.

;D
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 01, 2023, 10:40:06 PM
Quote from: Albion on March 01, 2023, 04:45:15 PMHe was a great composer for the ballet and this is just such a brilliant set (CHAN 7000/1), Neeme Jarvi at his peppery best - even the "Festive Overture" which I normally can't abide zips along and awakens occasional interest, plus you get bits from "Lady Macbeth" in the guise of "Katerina Ismailova". The RSNO play like demons...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514POB9YSHL._SY450_.jpg)


As with their frankly chaotic Bax catalogue, Chandos should box up all of their wonderful Shostakovich and Prokofiev and flog it far and wide.

;D

Agree absolutely - except I like the Festival Overture! - one of the great "what-might-have-beens" is if Jarvi had got to complete his Shostakovich cycle in Scotland.  So curious how when Jarvi 'left' Chandos that first time and went to DG his studio music-making went from exceptional to perfectly good but just a little generic.  His early years on Chandos in Scotland and BIS in Gothenburg are glorious.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 02, 2023, 03:16:00 PM
Quote from: Albion on March 01, 2023, 04:45:15 PMHe was a great composer for the ballet and this is just such a brilliant set (CHAN 7000/1), Neeme Jarvi at his peppery best - even the "Festive Overture" which I normally can't abide zips along and awakens occasional interest, plus you get bits from "Lady Macbeth" in the guise of "Katerina Ismailova". The RSNO play like demons...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514POB9YSHL._SY450_.jpg)


As with their frankly chaotic Bax catalogue, Chandos should box up all of their wonderful Shostakovich and Prokofiev and flog it far and wide.

;D

I love Shostakovich's ballets, especially The Golden Age.  If you haven't done so, I recommend checking the complete ballets.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk1MDYwNy4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkyMjc3Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NDIwNzQzODV9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk0NjY3NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NDIwNzQ0MjB9)

This disc with the 4 Ballet Suites with Jablonsky conducting is also a real treat!  :)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkzMTk4Ni4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 02, 2023, 04:58:11 PM
I am a fan of Shostakovich but haven't heard much of his ballets.  How to approach them?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 02, 2023, 05:39:57 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 02, 2023, 04:58:11 PMI am a fan of Shostakovich but haven't heard much of his ballets.  How to approach them?

I would personally just dive right in, as I feel they are highly "approachable" works. Definitely highlighting the lighter and humurous side of Shostakovich.

There are suites to The Bolt and Golden Age, and also the two Jazz Suite, along with the four Ballet Suites mentioned above.

Numerous recordings of the suites. Another one I like is the Dance Album, conducted by Chailly on Decca. It features The Bolt suite, a suite for his operetta Moscow-Cheryomushki and excepts of film music from The Gadlfly. A terrific disc!

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 02, 2023, 06:14:04 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 02, 2023, 04:58:11 PMI am a fan of Shostakovich but haven't heard much of his ballets.  How to approach them?
I'd go in feet first with The Golden Age.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Albion on March 02, 2023, 07:58:13 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 02, 2023, 03:16:00 PMI love Shostakovich's ballets, especially The Golden Age.  If you haven't done so, I recommend checking the complete ballets.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk1MDYwNy4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkyMjc3Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NDIwNzQzODV9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk0NjY3NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NDIwNzQ0MjB9)

Great recommendations, thanks - that's this month's rent down the khazi (I've still got to find enough cash to get the Brilliant Classics Respighi box)...


8)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 03, 2023, 05:14:30 AM
Quote from: Karl Tirebiter Henning on March 02, 2023, 06:14:04 PMI'd go in feet first with The Golden Age.

Slightly disagree.  8)

(https://i0.wp.com/blog.myswimpro.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/myswimpro-dive-fares-01.png?fit=1000%2C561&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 03, 2023, 06:53:31 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 03, 2023, 05:14:30 AMSlightly disagree.  8)

(https://i0.wp.com/blog.myswimpro.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/myswimpro-dive-fares-01.png?fit=1000%2C561&ssl=1)

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 10, 2023, 09:04:52 AM
Just beginning my journey today in the Jansons' symphony cycle.  Here, the 10th with the Philadelphia Orchestra.

I start off with the 10th, as I cannot think of a better way to begin the cycle, with the sounds of the opening movement and development of the 10th.  It seems like the best kickoff starter.  :)

And boy, it IS a great 10th.  Consistent, great performance from start to finish.  Hat tip to Karl for mentioning that. @Karl Tirebiter Henning

Also tagging @Sergeant Rock since I know this is one of his favourite symphonies.  ;)  :P

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODY4MDY3MS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1ODIxOTgxNjJ9)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 14, 2023, 12:11:29 PM
Quote from: Karl Henning on March 13, 2023, 04:41:12 PMDipping in at random:

Novorossiisk Chimes (The Flame of Eternal Glory) Op. 111b (1960)
I've found a story that bears on this piece, which I'll post at the Dacha.


While writing his Eighth Symphony, Shostakovich took time out to participate in the competition for a new national anthem to replace the "Internationale," which had been in use since 1917. like many of the nearly 200 competitors, Shostakovich penned multiple anthems; one was on a text by Yevgeny Dolmatovsky, another used a variant of the winning text by Sergey Mikhalkov and El-Registan. at some point during the competition, Marshal Voroshilov suggested that  Shostakovich and Aram Khachaturyan collaborate to submit a joint entry. Their joint anthem, in addition to their individual entries, made it to the third and final round, which was adjudicated in the Bolshoi Theater. The Red Army chorus and the Bolshoi Theater Orchestra presented each anthem separately, and then with combined forces, for consideration by members of the party and government. During one of these screenings, in late autumn 1943,  Shostakovich and Khachaturyan were summoned to Stalin's box. The story has undoubtedly been embellished in the retelling, but its main issue is clear. in the course of the conversation Stalin expounded his ideas about the ideal national anthem. He praised the entry by A.V. Alexandrov, which adapted the Mikhalkov-El-Registan text to a well known song, "Hymn of the Bolshevik Party," composed in 1939. When Stalin criticized the orchestration of this anthem and Alexandrov tried to shift the blame for his orchestration to Viktor Kushnevitsky, who had in fact orchestrated many of the entries, Shostakovich challenged Alexandrov and accused him of lying. Afterward he explained the reason for his incautious outburst: "But why did he try to ruin Kushnevitsky? After all,  Kushnevitsky is in the military. They could dispatch him the devil knows where." This incident notwithstanding, when the announcement was made in late December, it was Alexandrov's music that had been chosen for the new national anthem. On request,  Shostakovich played his anthem to his students in the fall of 1943, showed them the text and encouraged them to compose music to it. with text substitution, the Shostakovich-Khachaturyan anthem became the "Song of the Red Army."  Shostakovich recycled the song he had originally written on the  Mikhalkov-El-Registan text into the score of another review for the NKVD Song and Dance Ensemble, Russian River, Op. 66, which premiered in Moscow on 17 April 1944. (Its opening melodic phrases later served as the basis for Novorossiisk Chimes, composed in 1960.)

Laurel Fay,  Shostakovich: A Life, pp. 139-140.

The NKVD was the People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs. Imagine the US Department of the interior having a song and dance ensemble.

It may go without saying, but the first time I read the Fay, I had no idea about  Novorossiisk Chimes.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 15, 2023, 08:22:14 AM
Quote from: Karl Henning on March 14, 2023, 12:11:29 PMNovorossiisk Chimes (The Flame of Eternal Glory) Op. 111b (1960)
There's more:
The Eighth Quartet was not the only composition completed by Shostakovich during the summer of 1960. On 15 September he sent off tape and score of a brief musical tribute commemorating the victims who died in the World War II battle to liberate Novorossiisk (for which he recycled material from one of his abandoned wartime attempts at a national anthem). City authorities, who had originally turned to him hoping he would supervise the selection of suitable excerpts from the classics, were overwhelmed by the gift of a specially written homage. Novorossiisk Chimes established itself as a model for memorial installations. As of 27 September 1960, the tape plays hourly at the eternal flame in Novorossiisk's Heroes Square. the first two phrases were also adapted as the musical cue for the late evening news on Moscow Radio.


Laurel Fay,  Shostakovich: A Life, pp. 220.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 16, 2023, 01:50:08 PM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 10, 2023, 09:04:52 AMAlso tagging @Sergeant Rock since I know this is one of his favourite symphonies.  ;)  :P

Ha! You know it's not. Are you suggesting I give the Janson a shot? Okay. I'll give it a try tomorrow.

Sarge
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 16, 2023, 02:25:46 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 16, 2023, 01:50:08 PMHa! You know it's not. Are you suggesting I give the Janson a shot? Okay. I'll give it a try tomorrow.

Sarge

Yes, I know that. I said it in jest as I know you aren't a fan of the 10th symphony in general, even though you are an enthusiastic Shostakovich symphony fan in general.  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 17, 2023, 10:46:25 AM
I've been greatly enjoying the new Chandos CD of symphonies 12 and 15 (Storgards BBC Philharmonic) which, I suspect, will be one of my 'Discs of the Year' due to the unique combination of works. I was reading a favourable review in the latest Gramophone Magazine which stated 'I still retain great affection for Georges Pretre recording of Twelth (HMV,11/63) but this pairing is in another league'. When I looked up the Pretre LP recording I recognised it as it featured in my older brother's LP collection (on Classics for Pleasure) when I was growing up and was first interested in classical music. I don't think that there was ever a single CD release although I may be wrong. It does however feature in a Georges Pretre boxed set:
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 17, 2023, 05:20:19 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 17, 2023, 10:46:25 AMI've been greatly enjoying the new Chandos CD of symphonies 12 and 15 (Storgards BBC Philharmonic) which, I suspect, will be one of my 'Discs of the Year' due to the unique combination of works. I was reading a favourable review in the latest Gramophone Magazine which stated 'I still retain great affection for Georges Pretre recording of Twelth (HMV,11/63) but this pairing is in another league'. When I looked up the Pretre LP recording I recognised it as it featured in my older brother's LP collection (on Classics for Pleasure) when I was growing up and was first interested in classical music. I don't think that there was ever a single CD release although I may be wrong. It does however feature in a Georges Pretre boxed set:

His 12 isn't that good.  His 15 is wonderful.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: brewski on March 17, 2023, 05:35:40 PM
Listening live to Shostakovich's Cello Concerto No. 1, with Johannes Moser in fiery form, and the Minnesota Orchestra with conductor Michael Francis.

https://www.yourclassical.org/mpr

-Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 18, 2023, 12:10:42 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 17, 2023, 05:20:19 PMHis 12 isn't that good.  His 15 is wonderful.
Which is your favourite No.12?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 18, 2023, 01:54:40 AM
I had that CFP LP - I am still amazed how clearly I remember the cover after all these years (and can't remember what I had for tea yesterday - but that's another story). The version of 12 that hit me first/most was this one;

(https://i.discogs.com/JB4H1tm4u_uPOJzy1z-YUOpQRGql_Tqtjpx6YkAaaSo/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:597/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEzMjk5/ODMwLTE1NTE2NDM3/OTktMzc3NS5qcGVn.jpeg)

(someone will know if this is an authentic Russian Revolution era canon!).  Returning to this performance now I can understand why it made an impact.  Obviously not nearly as well recorded as the new Chandos bt I still prefer the performance - greater edge and urgency.  On CD it got released with a fine Stenka Razin;

(https://img.cdandlp.com/2018/04/imgL/119129448.jpg)

which also wears its years well.  The symphony performance was the main choice (albeit a limited one!) in

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/910CUxzq2EL.jpg)

which was my early-years bible for DSCH symphonies as it listed preferred recodings but also gave pretty basic (but helpful) analyses of the works......
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 18, 2023, 05:42:03 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 18, 2023, 12:10:42 AMWhich is your favourite No.12?

Haitink/Decca/Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra - a great sense of grandeur in this one.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 18, 2023, 10:20:00 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 18, 2023, 05:42:03 AMHaitink/Decca/Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra - a great sense of grandeur in this one.
Thanks  :)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 18, 2023, 11:34:26 AM
Holding this book in my hands, which is still rather a deliberate activity, while I recover the use of my left fingers, my muscle memory is reminding me of pleasures of the past. I was searching the index for Novorossiisk Chimes, which I knew would be there even though I remembered nought of it from when I read through the book years before. That task done, I found myself browsing the index with no definite aim. I am not saying by any means that it is impossible with e-books, only that I have never done so with e-books. Thus my eye came across an iconically politically incorrect entry, which rather piqued my curiosity. So here let me share another passage from the Fay.

The year 1926 began auspiciously. On New Year's Eve Shostakovich dreamed that he was walking in the desert when suddenly an old man appeared before him and predicted that he have a lucky year.  Shostakovich resolved to finish his Second Symphony quickly; he claimed he could already hear the whole work in his head. he also kept himself busy correcting the parts for his First Symphony and gratifying a passion for chess. He was delighted when Yavorsky [an influential figure in the musical life of Kiev and Moscow] helped expedite a professional trip to Moscow in early February, all expenses paid, to promote his music and that of other Leningrad student composers at the Moscow Conservatory, and he was pleased with his reception there. He reported that Myaskovsky and other luminaries at the Association of Contemporary Music (ASM) had promised had promised to include his symphony in their programs, that Yavorsky and  Myaskovsky were determined to put pressure on Leningrad musicians to find him more suitable employment, and that Tukhachevsky [a film director and pioneer of Soviet animated film who would later collaborate with Shostakovich on a number of projects] had found him a room and a job in Moscow, if he wanted it. when he showed the symphony, the Two Pieces for octet, and the Three Fantastic Dances to the music panel of the State Music Publisher on 9 February 1926 He was thrilled that everything was accepted for publication. he was finally beginning to make his mark in the world.

Shostakovich could no longer stomach the grind at the Picadilly [the cinema where he played as accompanist], and on his return to Leningrad he submitted his resignation. Relishing his freedom, he resumed attendance at concerts and other entertainments. He was impressed by Fritz Stiedry's performance of Tchaikovsky's Serenade for Strings and Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. He judged Prokofiev's Love for Three Oranges, which received its Russian premiere in Leningrad in February 1926, exceptionally good.  The Jazz Band of Sam Wooding and the Chocolate Kiddies—who performed what was billed as a "negro operetta" at the Leningrad Music Hall during a three-month Russian tour—was, to Shostakovich, a musical revelation of America. The vitality and enthusiasm of the performers also made an indelible impression, and he was awe-struck by the twelve ferocious Bengal tigers that formed a pyramid rolled balls and leaped through Flaming hoops at the circus.

Laurel Fay,  Shostakovich: A Life, pp. 30-31.

Prokofievophiles will recall the peculiar turn of Fate, that the première of The Love for Three Oranges took place in Chicago.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 18, 2023, 05:01:34 PM
Quote from: Karl Henning on March 18, 2023, 11:34:26 AMHolding this book in my hands, which is still rather a deliberate activity, while I recover the use of my left fingers, my muscle memory is reminding me of pleasures of the past. I was searching the index for Novorossiisk Chimes, which I knew would be there even though I remembered nought of it from when I read through the book years before. That task done, I found myself browsing the index with no definite aim. I am not saying by any means that it is impossible with e-books, only that I have never done so with e-books. Thus my eye came across an iconically politically incorrect entry, which rather piqued my curiosity. So here let me share another passage from the Fay.

The year 1926 began auspiciously. On New Year's Eve Shostakovich dreamed that he was walking in the desert when suddenly an old man appeared before him and predicted that he have a lucky year.  Shostakovich resolved to finish his Second Symphony quickly; he claimed he could already hear the whole work in his head. he also kept himself busy correcting the parts for his First Symphony and gratifying a passion for chess. He was delighted when Yavorsky [an influential figure in the musical life of Kiev and Moscow] helped expedite a professional trip to Moscow in early February, all expenses paid, to promote his music and that of other Leningrad student composers at the Moscow Conservatory, and he was pleased with his reception there. He reported that Myaskovsky and other luminaries at the Association of Contemporary Music (ASM) had promised had promised to include his symphony in their programs, that Yavorsky and  Myaskovsky were determined to put pressure on Leningrad musicians to find him more suitable employment, and that Tukhachevsky [a film director and pioneer of Soviet animated film who would later collaborate with Shostakovich on a number of projects] had found him a room and a job in Moscow, if he wanted it. when he showed the symphony, the Two Pieces for octet, and the Three Fantastic Dances to the music panel of the State Music Publisher on 9 February 1926 He was thrilled that everything was accepted for publication. he was finally beginning to make his mark in the world.

Shostakovich could no longer stomach the grind at the Picadilly [the cinema where he played as accompanist], and on his return to Leningrad he submitted his resignation. Relishing his freedom, he resumed attendance at concerts and other entertainments. He was impressed by Fritz Stiedry's performance of Tchaikovsky's Serenade for Strings and Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. He judged Prokofiev's Love for Three Oranges, which received its Russian premiere in Leningrad in February 1926, exceptionally good.  The Jazz Band of Sam Wooding and the Chocolate Kiddies—who performed what was billed as a "negro operetta" at the Leningrad Music Hall during a three-month Russian tour—was, to Shostakovich, a musical revelation of America. The vitality and enthusiasm of the performers also made an indelible impression, and he was awe-struck by the twelve ferocious Bengal tigers that formed a pyramid rolled balls and leaped through Flaming hoops at the circus.

Laurel Fay,  Shostakovich: A Life, pp. 30-31.

Prokofievophiles will recall the peculiar turn of Fate, that the première of The Love for Three Oranges took place in Chicago.

I really loved this book.  Reading it made me feel like Shostakovich was someone I knew. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 19, 2023, 12:23:16 PM
At the end of December 1928 the film directors Kozintsev and Trauberg invited him to write the music for the silent film New Babylon. The film the film called for the accompaniment of a large orchestra, but the complexities of the score proved too much for the cinema orchestras and the film had only a few showings with the music until it was revived in the 1980s. Shostakovich was able to reuse some of the score for the music to Mayakovsky's play The Bedbug, which he wrote more or less simultaneously ...
At the end of the year [1928] Meyerhold was looking for a composer to write music for his production of Mayakovsky's new play The Bedbug. After receiving a refusal from Prokofiev, the director turned to Shostakovich, who wrote most of the music for the play in January 1929, while simultaneously working on the music for New Babylon and on a commission from MALEGOT [Leningrad 'Maly' State Opera theatre] to compose an Overture and Finale to Erwin Dressel's opera Armer Columbus (Poor Columbus).

Elizabeth Wilson, Shostakovich, A Life Remembered (second edition) pp.84, 88-89
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 19, 2023, 02:44:13 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 18, 2023, 01:54:40 AMI had that CFP LP - I am still amazed how clearly I remember the cover after all these years (and can't remember what I had for tea yesterday - but that's another story). The version of 12 that hit me first/most was this one;

(https://i.discogs.com/JB4H1tm4u_uPOJzy1z-YUOpQRGql_Tqtjpx6YkAaaSo/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:597/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEzMjk5/ODMwLTE1NTE2NDM3/OTktMzc3NS5qcGVn.jpeg)

(someone will know if this is an authentic Russian Revolution era canon!).  Returning to this performance now I can understand why it made an impact.  Obviously not nearly as well recorded as the new Chandos bt I still prefer the performance - greater edge and urgency.  On CD it got released with a fine Stenka Razin;

(https://img.cdandlp.com/2018/04/imgL/119129448.jpg)

which also wears its years well.  The symphony performance was the main choice (albeit a limited one!) in

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/910CUxzq2EL.jpg)

which was my early-years bible for DSCH symphonies as it listed preferred recodings but also gave pretty basic (but helpful) analyses of the works......
The Philips CD was for many years the only one that I owned of the 12th Symphony. I think it's a fine performance.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 20, 2023, 11:48:40 AM
Now listening to the Volume II discs from this set for the first time.  Marvelous performances.  I've never heard such clarity as in the pizzicato passages in the 3rd Shostakovich quartet, as an example.

And a tremendous peformance of one of my favourite quartets of ANY composer, Prokofiev's 2nd.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwNTU2My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NzExMDU3MDl9)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: DavidW on March 20, 2023, 11:56:10 AM
I'm glad that you're loving the set Ray, it is my favorite.  BTW I also recommend Pacifica's set of the Mendelssohn quartets.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on March 20, 2023, 12:15:16 PM
Quote from: DavidW on March 20, 2023, 11:56:10 AMI'm glad that you're loving the set Ray, it is my favorite.  BTW I also recommend Pacifica's set of the Mendelssohn quartets.
+ 1
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 21, 2023, 05:17:55 AM
Now listening to these performances for the first time.  Gripping performances!

Symphony No. 2 in B, Op. 14 'To October'
Chor und Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks

Symphony No. 12 in D minor, Op. 112 'The Year 1917'
Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks

Mariss Jansons

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODY4MDY3MS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1ODIxOTgxNjJ9)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 22, 2023, 04:35:01 AM
Now listening to this performance of Symphony No. 13 for the first time.  I have to be in the right mood for this one, which seems to be early this morning.  ;D   A good performance, although I prefer the Barshai in this one.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODY4MDY3MS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1ODIxOTgxNjJ9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkzNzY0NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjEwODI4MjF9)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 22, 2023, 05:14:02 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 22, 2023, 04:35:01 AMNow listening to this performance of Symphony No. 13 for the first time.  I have to be in the right mood for this one, which seems to be early this morning.  ;D   A good performance, although I prefer the Barshai in this one.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODY4MDY3MS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1ODIxOTgxNjJ9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkzNzY0NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjEwODI4MjF9)

I agree with you on both counts.  I've always thought the Babi Yar was the highlight of the Barshai box
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 22, 2023, 05:36:52 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 22, 2023, 04:35:01 AMNow listening to this performance of Symphony No. 13 for the first time.  I have to be in the right mood for this one, which seems to be early this morning.  ;D  A good performance, although I prefer the Barshai in this one.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODY4MDY3MS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1ODIxOTgxNjJ9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkzNzY0NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjEwODI4MjF9)

Have you heard Kamu's 13 with CBSO?  I adore that one but it's very hard to find.  Fabulous soloist too.  This is it:
https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%208540 (https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%208540)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 23, 2023, 05:46:58 AM
Impressive performances of both the 3rd and 14th.  Musically speaking, there is very much to enjoy in the 3rd symphony (example being the beautiful 4th movement Andante).

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODY4MDY3MS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1ODIxOTgxNjJ9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk0NjI3NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjEwODUzNDR9)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 26, 2023, 12:46:59 AM
A recent Charity Shop acquisistion was this pair of discs;

[img=350x350]https://i.discogs.com/LzTjY9BoiD5b9SsIAKZTTQ_U6gGAIAE3VOBGmZXEtQo/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE4MDkx/OTQ4LTE2MTcyMDI0/MzgtMzQzMy5qcGVn.jpeg[/img]

the British premiere from 1960 in the presence of an audience on day-release from the severe-bronchitus-sufferers-ward at London's Royal Festival Hall.  Some folk love the blistering intensity of the performance, others (it seems) feel that issues of intonation and ensemble reduce the "value".  To my mind there is one thing that is clear.  Surely this IS the orchestral sound and style that DSCH had in his inner ear when writing this type of awesome music. 

So when we return to works such as Symphony 12 (note written just a year after this performance and premiered by the SAME performers) is it not reasonable to think that when DSCH wrote certain passages he was expecting this type of Leningrad PO playing.  Hence, my return to the recent No.12 on Chandos and my sense that it is beautifully played with great refinement seems to me totally wrong - a Rolls Royce instead of a Ferrari.  Perhaps with greater music it can thrive in very different interpretative environments - but to my mind No.12 needs this kind of Leningrad PO grip-you-by-the-throat-and-never-let-go fury.

BTW - I thought this No.8 premiere was utterly compelling..... oh but that audience... aagh!!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 27, 2023, 05:30:18 AM
First listen to these performances, and they are wonderful!  Although the 11th isn't my favourite of his symphonies (probably middle of the pack or even a bit lower), I could not think of a symphony of his I would want to hear performed live more than this one!  I think it would be an absolutely thrill to hear a live performance.  :)

Again, I think this is a terrific performance, although my favourite is still Kirill Karabits with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra (live), as a freebie BBC Music Magazine CD.  The bell at the end is very prominent!!

Symphony No. 11 in G minor, Op. 103 'The Year 1905'

Jazz Suite No. 1
Waltz from Jazz Suite No. 2
Tahiti Trot

Mariss Jansons
Philadelphia Orchestra

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODY4MDY3MS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1ODIxOTgxNjJ9)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkyNDk3NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjEwODQwNDR9)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on March 27, 2023, 05:39:08 AM
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 27, 2023, 05:30:18 AMKirill Karabits with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra

Would love to hear it but doesn't look like it's available other than that free magazine disc.   >:(
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brahmsian on March 27, 2023, 05:40:42 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 27, 2023, 05:39:08 AMWould love to hear it but doesn't look like it's available other than that free magazine disc.   >:(

Correct, I'm not aware of it being available outside of that.  :'(
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 27, 2023, 09:21:22 AM
QuoteWould love to hear it but doesn't look like it's available other than that free magazine disc.  >:(

If you can make do with a 320 kps MP3 version - here it is:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1HRvf_kFNksrPQ9MRtHsaQbu1au-U4mpY?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roy Bland on March 27, 2023, 08:00:13 PM
Here tells of a "Russian Disc" label but IMHO isn't older label
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQ2ODE0OC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2Nzg4NzEzNjN9)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 31, 2023, 12:37:00 AM
From WAYLTN thread:
New arrival/New release: Shostakovich Symphony No.10
I greatly enjoyed listening to Paavo Jarvi's Cincinnati performance the other day but this is in another league:

PS I like this extract from Harlow Robinson's excellent booklet note:
'In the finale's closing measures the timpani pound out D-S-C-H triumphantly with orchestra roaring, as if to announce [after the end of the Stalinist Terror] : 'I'm still here! I'm still here'.'

The inclusion of Casella's orchestration of Balakirev's 'Islamey' conducted by Kondrashin with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra is an added bonus.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on March 31, 2023, 02:40:03 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 27, 2023, 05:39:08 AMWould love to hear it but doesn't look like it's available other than that free magazine disc.   >:(
You can pick it up very cheaply on Amazon UK but you'd have to add on the postage. Haven't checked on Amazon.Com
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shostakovich-Symphony-No-Bournemouth-Orchestra/dp/B0035B49EE/ref=sr_1_2?crid=LJ18H7UVY8AM&keywords=shostakovich+karabits&qid=1680258982&s=music&sprefix=shostakovich+karabits%2Cpopular%2C69&sr=1-2
Those BBC Music Magazine CDs are often sold separately online. The Karabits performance of No.11 is excellent - very exciting.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 31, 2023, 12:31:33 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 31, 2023, 02:40:03 AMYou can pick it up very cheaply on Amazon UK but you'd have to add on the postage. Haven't checked on Amazon.Com
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shostakovich-Symphony-No-Bournemouth-Orchestra/dp/B0035B49EE/ref=sr_1_2?crid=LJ18H7UVY8AM&keywords=shostakovich+karabits&qid=1680258982&s=music&sprefix=shostakovich+karabits%2Cpopular%2C69&sr=1-2
Those BBC Music Magazine CDs are often sold separately online. The Karabits performance of No.11 is excellent - very exciting.

Quote from: relm1 on March 27, 2023, 05:39:08 AMWould love to hear it but doesn't look like it's available other than that free magazine disc.  >:(

I found a copy of it (for cheap) here in the US.  Keep an eye out at record stores and book/music stores (used in particular).  If you're not desperate to get ahold of a copy quickly, one should pop up.  :)

PD
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: brewski on April 02, 2023, 06:43:22 AM
Just got word of this new release with Symphonies 8, 9, and 10 from the Berlin Philharmonic and conductor Kirill Petrenko. (The recordings were made on 31 October 2020, 13 November 2020 and 29 October 2021 at the Philharmonie Berlin.)

More info here (https://www.berliner-philharmoniker-recordings.com/shostakovich.html?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=REC%20-%20Schostakowitsch%20-%20EN&utm_content=REC%20-%20Schostakowitsch%20-%20EN+CID_8f567a91c7cd82f18058469a6b94c757&utm_source=Email%20Newsletter&utm_term=ORDER%20NOW).

(https://www.berliner-philharmoniker-recordings.com/media/catalog/product/cache/12/thumbnail/960x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/d/s/dss8910_aufgeklappt_schatten.png)

-Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 02, 2023, 09:19:43 AM
Quote from: brewski on April 02, 2023, 06:43:22 AMJust got word of this new release with Symphonies 8, 9, and 10 from the Berlin Philharmonic and conductor Kirill Petrenko. (The recordings were made on 31 October 2020, 13 November 2020 and 29 October 2021 at the Philharmonie Berlin.)

More info here (https://www.berliner-philharmoniker-recordings.com/shostakovich.html?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=REC%20-%20Schostakowitsch%20-%20EN&utm_content=REC%20-%20Schostakowitsch%20-%20EN+CID_8f567a91c7cd82f18058469a6b94c757&utm_source=Email%20Newsletter&utm_term=ORDER%20NOW).

(https://www.berliner-philharmoniker-recordings.com/media/catalog/product/cache/12/thumbnail/960x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/d/s/dss8910_aufgeklappt_schatten.png)

-Bruce


Just got a superlative-laden review on MusicWeb.........
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: LKB on May 21, 2023, 07:20:32 AM
Anyone hear the BPO in concert lately? Last time for me was in 2017 with Rattle, and they were mostly boring in Mahler's Seventh.

( Asking as I've pretty much ignored them since then, perhaps Petrenko has made them interesting again. )
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on August 06, 2023, 07:07:02 AM
Just finished going through the string quartets in order. Fascinating that the 15th String Quartet closes with an allusion to the Largo of Symphony No. 6, an allusion which also features in the second movement of the 15th Symphony.

I've also got a box coming in the week which includes most of the chamber music that isn't the string quartets. So the Piano Quintet, Trio No. 2, and the sonatas for violin, viola, cello, and piano.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: brewski on August 06, 2023, 07:33:58 AM
Quote from: LKB on May 21, 2023, 07:20:32 AMAnyone hear the BPO in concert lately? Last time for me was in 2017 with Rattle, and they were mostly boring in Mahler's Seventh.

( Asking as I've pretty much ignored them since then, perhaps Petrenko has made them interesting again. )

Missed this from a few months ago. I'll be hearing them live next month (though not in person), via their Digital Concert Hall in the program below. I have heard a few broadcasts with Petrenko (coincidentally, the Mahler 7 when they were at Carnegie in the spring) and think he's a terrific choice for the ensemble at this moment.

Berliner Philharmoniker
Kirill Petrenko conductor
Christian Gerhaher baritone

Xenakis - Jonchaies for orchestra
Karl Amadeus Hartmann - Gesangsszene based on words from Sodom und Gomorrah by Jean Giraudoux
Márton Illés - Lég-szín-tér (Premiere)
Kurtág - Stele for large orchestra, op. 33

-Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: brewski on August 06, 2023, 07:34:58 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on August 06, 2023, 07:07:02 AMJust finished going through the string quartets in order. Fascinating that the 15th String Quartet closes with an allusion to the Largo of Symphony No. 6, an allusion which also features in the second movement of the 15th Symphony.

Thanks for that tidbit, which I did not realize!

-Bruce
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on August 07, 2023, 06:14:13 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on August 06, 2023, 07:07:02 AMI've also got a box coming in the week which includes most of the chamber music that isn't the string quartets. So the Piano Quintet, Trio No. 2, and the sonatas for violin, viola, cello, and piano.

What box is this?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on August 07, 2023, 09:46:36 AM
Brilliant Classics box
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Papy Oli on August 14, 2023, 08:00:23 AM
Besides a slight familiarity with Nos. 5 & 9, I am slowly dipping a proper toe in Shostakovich's symphonies through 3 of the 4 cycles I own (Kondrashin, Haitink, Jansons) with parallel maiden traversals in each of them (I also own Barshai and did one traversal many years ago but that never clicked with me).

So far, I have preferred Haitink followed by Kondrashin in No.1 last week.
Today Jansons led the pack in No.2.

Out of curiosity, which symphonies are usually considered (or do you consider) as the strongest in each of those cycles please? 


PS: Off my shelves, I otherwise really enjoy Chailly's Jazz and Dance albums and also remember liking the Preludes by Deyanova. I need to revisit BAT's Trios. As for Pacifica's SQ, well... it will be a very cautious approach when the time comes :laugh:
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 14, 2023, 09:36:20 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on August 14, 2023, 08:00:23 AMBesides a slight familiarity with Nos. 5 & 9, I am slowly dipping a proper toe in Shostakovich's symphonies through 3 of the 4 cycles I own (Kondrashin, Haitink, Jansons) with parallel maiden traversals in each of them (I also own Barshai and did one traversal many years ago but that never clicked with me).

So far, I have preferred Haitink followed by Kondrashin in No.1 last week.
Today Jansons led the pack in No.2.

Out of curiosity, which symphonies are usually considered (or do you consider) as the strongest in each of those cycles please? 


PS: Off my shelves, I otherwise really enjoy Chailly's Jazz and Dance albums and also remember liking the Preludes by Deyanova. I need to revisit BAT's Trios. As for Pacifica's SQ, well... it will be a very cautious approach when the time comes :laugh:


Barshai's 13 is stunning.  Kondrashin in 8 & 11 and some others probably too.  Jansons I have but actually don't really "know" at all but it seems to garner high praise.  I love the sound of the Concertgebouw for Haitink but as a general rule I prefer the more manic Soviet approach to Haitink's epic style.  His LPO/10 is fine.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 15, 2023, 12:34:14 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 14, 2023, 09:36:20 AMBarshai's 13 is stunning.  Kondrashin in 8 & 11 and some others probably too.  Jansons I have but actually don't really "know" at all but it seems to garner high praise.  I love the sound of the Concertgebouw for Haitink but as a general rule I prefer the more manic Soviet approach to Haitink's epic style.  His LPO/10 is fine.
Haitink is supreme in 13 IMO but, in general, I agree with your preference for the 'more manic Soviet approach...'
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Madiel on August 15, 2023, 03:25:49 AM
I'll keep my calm Russian Vasily Petrenko, thanks.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on August 15, 2023, 05:39:20 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 15, 2023, 12:34:14 AMHaitink is supreme in 13 IMO but, in general, I agree with your preference for the 'more manic Soviet approach...'

I still think Okko Kamu is superior to Haitink 13 but know it's hard to get hold of.  Have you heard that one Jeffrey?  It isn't a more manic Soviet approach but probably a more Astro-bohemian (Mahler) approach.  More emphasis on drama and struggle than on sarcasm and satire.  The Kamu ending just feels so existentially uncertain which I think best fits this work. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 15, 2023, 07:11:11 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 15, 2023, 05:39:20 AMI still think Okko Kamu is superior to Haitink 13 but know it's hard to get hold of.  Have you heard that one Jeffrey?  It isn't a more manic Soviet approach but probably a more Astro-bohemian (Mahler) approach.  More emphasis on drama and struggle than on sarcasm and satire.  The Kamu ending just feels so existentially uncertain which I think best fits this work. 
No, but I'd love to hear it. What label is it on?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on August 15, 2023, 07:23:39 AM
Previn should not be forgotten in 4 & 8.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 15, 2023, 08:28:32 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 15, 2023, 07:23:39 AMPrevin should not be forgotten in 4 & 8.
Love that Previn/Chicago Opus 43!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 15, 2023, 08:30:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 15, 2023, 07:11:11 AMNo, but I'd love to hear it. What label is it on?

Chandos with the CBSO

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH8540.jpg)

BIG choral group which is always effective in this piece I reckon
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 15, 2023, 12:04:18 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 15, 2023, 08:30:55 AMChandos with the CBSO

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH8540.jpg)

BIG choral group which is always effective in this piece I reckon
Many thanks RS - must look out for that one.
We visited the site of Babi Yar when we went to Kyiv.
PS Was there ever a CD release?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on August 15, 2023, 04:05:42 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 15, 2023, 12:04:18 PMMany thanks RS - must look out for that one.
We visited the site of Babi Yar when we went to Kyiv.
PS Was there ever a CD release?

Yes, this was on CD in the 90's.  I have the CD. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on August 15, 2023, 04:06:21 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 15, 2023, 08:30:55 AMChandos with the CBSO

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CH8540.jpg)

BIG choral group which is always effective in this piece I reckon

Also, a fabulous deep, rich soloist.  Sometimes they sound like tenors.  Hmm, interesting, so three different choirs are credited I notice. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 15, 2023, 11:32:39 PM
Quote from: relm1 on August 15, 2023, 04:06:21 PMAlso, a fabulous deep, rich soloist.  Sometimes they sound like tenors.  Hmm, interesting, so three different choirs are credited I notice. 
Thanks
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: LKB on August 16, 2023, 02:30:02 AM
I'll vote for Haitink on Decca in the 13th. In The Store has a sort of atmospheric weariness that l find effective, and Fears is downright hair-raising.

The men of the chorus are incredibly well-blended and very well balanced with the orchestra.

Good soloist, not quite as idiomatic as a Russian singer but strong vocally.

Other " honorable mentions " for Haitink: 5,6,8 and 11.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 16, 2023, 05:48:27 AM
Quote from: LKB on August 16, 2023, 02:30:02 AMI'll vote for Haitink on Decca in the 13th. In The Store has a sort of atmospheric weariness that l find effective, and Fears is downright hair-raising.

The men of the chorus are incredibly well-blended and very well balanced with the orchestra.

Good soloist, not quite as idiomatic as a Russian singer but strong vocally.

Other " honorable mentions " for Haitink: 5,6,8 and 11.

I agree the Haitink 13 is a highlight of his cycle but so is Barshai's No.13 in his set.  Of the non-Soviet performances Barshai's is my favourite - darkly implaccable.......!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 16, 2023, 05:53:23 AM
Quote from: LKB on August 16, 2023, 02:30:02 AMI'll vote for Haitink on Decca in the 13th. In The Store has a sort of atmospheric weariness that l find effective, and Fears is downright hair-raising.
Yes. I'll frankly disclose, though, that I don't believe I've heard a recording of the Thirteenth not to like. I haven't heard all of Haitink's cycle, but his recordings were my entrée to about four of the symphonies, and I still think well of his work here.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 16, 2023, 05:55:59 AM
Quote from: Karl Henning on August 16, 2023, 05:53:23 AMYes. I'll frankly disclose, though, that I don't believe I've heard a recording of the Thirteenth not to like. I haven't heard all of Haitink's cycle, but his recordings were my entrée to about four of the symphonies, and I still think well of his work here.

Fair comment - now I think about it I can't remember a bad recording!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 16, 2023, 05:57:06 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 16, 2023, 05:48:27 AMI agree the Haitink 13 is a highlight of his cycle but so is Barshai's No.13 in his set.  Of the non-Soviet performances Barshai's is my favourite - darkly implaccable.......!

Barshai emigrated to the West when he was 52 y.o. I don't know whether he qualified as non-Soviet.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 16, 2023, 06:07:03 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 16, 2023, 05:57:06 AMBarshai emigrated to the West when he was 52 y.o. I don't know whether he qualified as non-Soviet.
I think what is meant is that the orchestra is a Western ensemble. Barshai clearly had a personal connection to the composer.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Irons on August 16, 2023, 06:55:00 AM
Quote from: Karl Henning on August 16, 2023, 06:07:03 AMI think what is meant is that the orchestra is a Western ensemble. Barshai clearly had a personal connection to the composer.

Best of both worlds.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: vandermolen on August 16, 2023, 07:14:16 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 16, 2023, 05:55:59 AMFair comment - now I think about it I can't remember a bad recording!
Same here!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 16, 2023, 10:33:36 AM
Quote from: Karl Henning on August 16, 2023, 06:07:03 AMI think what is meant is that the orchestra is a Western ensemble. Barshai clearly had a personal connection to the composer.

In Rostislav Dubinsky's great memoir about making music under the Soviet Regime (Stormy Applause - a compelling read) he "outs" Barshai (the original viola player in the Borodin Quartet) as being the official State Informer to the KGB within the group.  I think we can call him "Soviet"!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 16, 2023, 01:25:26 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 16, 2023, 10:33:36 AMIn Rostislav Dubinsky's great memoir about making music under the Soviet Regime (Stormy Applause - a compelling read) he "outs" Barshai (the original viola player in the Borodin Quartet) as being the official State Informer to the KGB within the group.  I think we can call him "Soviet"!
Thanks for reminding me about Stormy Applause, I should indeed read it. Indeed, the KGB had informers everywhere (each apartment building, e.g.) 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Brian on August 17, 2023, 07:09:11 AM
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/pb/d9/ap68mvrbpd9pb_600.jpg)

This recording presents a novelty. Trumpeter Timofei Dokschizer (or Dokshizer; both spellings are used repeatedly in the booklet) was a friend of Shostakovich who had once asked him to write a trumpet concerto, and frequently performed the trumpet part in the Piano Concerto No. 1. Acting on the knowledge that Shostakovich had originally intended that piece to have a much bigger trumpet part, Dokschizer rewrote the solo parts to give the trumpet more of the tunes and make the piano more of a supporting player. This recording was authorized by the Shostakovich estate and includes his rewritten parts (though not his re-orchestration of the rest of the ensemble, which apparently went rather too far).

Honestly? I don't hate it. At first, after the opening, it feels like the piano has been totally sidelined in favor of trumpet solos, but in the midsection and development, it becomes more of a true dialogue. The movement I struggle most with is the slow one, where the trumpet's volume just doesn't help the mood. The piano still gets a long solo to kick off the short third movement interlude, and the trumpet just echoes the strings. The finale is a total success I think - both players get to be virtuosic, both parts basically intact, the trumpet with loads of new flourishes. It's a real joyride for both players.

Merkelo is a wonderful trumpeter, but I think that both orchestra and pianist are a little too "soft" in deference to him. You can sense a lot of tentative softness in the strings in the third movement, and Cho sounds like he's playing chamber music the whole way through. I think microphone placement is also partly to blame; the soloists sound close and orchestra distant.

The Arutiunian piece is a slightly "exotic" bit of light music, only 15 minutes long. The Weinberg is symphonic in scope, though most listeners will best remember the finale, where the trumpeter quotes all the most famous trumpet solos from all of the previous musical repertoire, including Shostakovich.

Artistically, file this one under "not sure how to feel about it"! Both Dokschizer and Merkelo were/are Ukrainian and Merkelo donated his proceeds from this album's sales to Ukrainian war charity causes.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on August 17, 2023, 09:20:00 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 17, 2023, 07:09:11 AM(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/pb/d9/ap68mvrbpd9pb_600.jpg)

This recording presents a novelty. Trumpeter Timofei Dokschizer (or Dokshizer; both spellings are used repeatedly in the booklet) was a friend of Shostakovich who had once asked him to write a trumpet concerto, and frequently performed the trumpet part in the Piano Concerto No. 1. Acting on the knowledge that Shostakovich had originally intended that piece to have a much bigger trumpet part, Dokschizer rewrote the solo parts to give the trumpet more of the tunes and make the piano more of a supporting player. This recording was authorized by the Shostakovich estate and includes his rewritten parts (though not his re-orchestration of the rest of the ensemble, which apparently went rather too far).

Honestly? I don't hate it. At first, after the opening, it feels like the piano has been totally sidelined in favor of trumpet solos, but in the midsection and development, it becomes more of a true dialogue. The movement I struggle most with is the slow one, where the trumpet's volume just doesn't help the mood. The piano still gets a long solo to kick off the short third movement interlude, and the trumpet just echoes the strings. The finale is a total success I think - both players get to be virtuosic, both parts basically intact, the trumpet with loads of new flourishes. It's a real joyride for both players.

Merkelo is a wonderful trumpeter, but I think that both orchestra and pianist are a little too "soft" in deference to him. You can sense a lot of tentative softness in the strings in the third movement, and Cho sounds like he's playing chamber music the whole way through. I think microphone placement is also partly to blame; the soloists sound close and orchestra distant.

The Arutiunian piece is a slightly "exotic" bit of light music, only 15 minutes long. The Weinberg is symphonic in scope, though most listeners will best remember the finale, where the trumpeter quotes all the most famous trumpet solos from all of the previous musical repertoire, including Shostakovich.

Artistically, file this one under "not sure how to feel about it"! Both Dokschizer and Merkelo were/are Ukrainian and Merkelo donated his proceeds from this album's sales to Ukrainian war charity causes.
Interesting. The Weinberg seems a jeu d'esprit, and the Arutunian has been a staple of trumpet auditions forever.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Maestro267 on September 22, 2023, 04:53:07 AM
Anyone notice a big similarity between a three-note motif in the Fugue of the Piano Quintet and the first movement of the Fifth Symphony?
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 17, 2023, 01:31:12 PM
Yo-Yo Ma, the BSO & Shostakovich
 (https://www.earrelevant.net/2023/10/yo-yo-ma-and-boston-symphony-orchestra-deliver-impressive-one-two-punch-with-shostakovich-cello-concertos/)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on October 18, 2023, 06:14:33 AM
Quote from: Karl Henning on October 17, 2023, 01:31:12 PMYo-Yo Ma, the BSO & Shostakovich
 (https://www.earrelevant.net/2023/10/yo-yo-ma-and-boston-symphony-orchestra-deliver-impressive-one-two-punch-with-shostakovich-cello-concertos/)


Fascinating program, must have been magnificent!  I am particularly curious about Iman Habib's Zhiân.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on October 29, 2023, 04:15:30 PM
What is your favorite recording of Symphony No. 4 and what makes it so great?

I just listened to Vassily Sinaisky/BBC Phil and it was excellent but doesn't knock down my favorite which is Haitink/London Phil.  I'm wondering why I adore Haitink's so much.  I've heard him play this work in other recordings but never matching the LPO recording.  First, technically it is incredible!  The balance between the instruments is just so spot on.  Even if Sinaisky's interpretation is great, he doesn't quite capture the soloistic moments as well which this symphony is full of.  There is the very famous trombone solo in the last movement, but many other moments throughout.  I marvel at the composition, it is so damn good structurally, adhering to tradition yet completely innovative.  Such oddities too, like the pitter patter percussion which he revisits in the epilogue of his final Symphony No. 15.  Haitink/LPO tempo is so perfect but also the tremendous transition from power and might to utter despair in the final minutes are tremendous.  I find this to be Shostakovich at his most Mahlerian but also his most dystopian and no where else done as finely as Haitink/London Phil fine as Sinaisky/BBC is.  To me, this work embodies our times.  It is a time capsule. 

(https://img.discogs.com/LtMH5Q-q4ULubO58l7XOhvKaeNg=/fit-in/600x593/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3336220-1326310371.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: JBS on October 29, 2023, 07:50:25 PM
Quote from: relm1 on October 29, 2023, 04:15:30 PMWhat is your favorite recording of Symphony No. 4 and what makes it so great?

I just listened to Vassily Sinaisky/BBC Phil and it was excellent but doesn't knock down my favorite which is Haitink/London Phil.  I'm wondering why I adore Haitink's so much.  I've heard him play this work in other recordings but never matching the LPO recording.  First, technically it is incredible!  The balance between the instruments is just so spot on.  Even if Sinaisky's interpretation is great, he doesn't quite capture the soloistic moments as well which this symphony is full of.  There is the very famous trombone solo in the last movement, but many other moments throughout.  I marvel at the composition, it is so damn good structurally, adhering to tradition yet completely innovative.  Such oddities too, like the pitter patter percussion which he revisits in the epilogue of his final Symphony No. 15.  Haitink/LPO tempo is so perfect but also the tremendous transition from power and might to utter despair in the final minutes are tremendous.  I find this to be Shostakovich at his most Mahlerian but also his most dystopian and no where else done as finely as Haitink/London Phil fine as Sinaisky/BBC is.  To me, this work embodies our times.  It is a time capsule. 

(https://img.discogs.com/LtMH5Q-q4ULubO58l7XOhvKaeNg=/fit-in/600x593/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3336220-1326310371.jpeg.jpg)

Gergiev on Philips with the Rotterdam and Kirov Orchestras.
[Did he ever re-do it for the Mariinsky label?] It was my first exposure to this symphony, so it might be a case of imprinting.

Running close behind it might be Haitink/CSO on CSO Resound.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 29, 2023, 08:19:37 PM
Quote from: JBS on October 29, 2023, 07:50:25 PMGergiev on Philips with the Rotterdam and Kirov Orchestras.
[Did he ever re-do it for the Mariinsky label?] It was my first exposure to this symphony, so it might be a case of imprinting.

Running close behind it might be Haitink/CSO on CSO Resound.
That CSO Resound recording is superb!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on October 30, 2023, 06:20:19 AM
Quote from: Karl Henning on October 29, 2023, 08:19:37 PMThat CSO Resound recording is superb!
Other recordings I like very much, (I don't actually think I can point to a single favorite) are Shostakovich fils and the Prague Symphony, Previn/CSO, Jansons/Bavarian Radio, Caetani/Milano, Andris/BSO.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on November 15, 2023, 05:44:57 AM
I have my eyes on this.  Has anyone heard it yet?  Rozhdestvensky is probably my favorite conductor of this repertoire.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTM2NTk0NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NjQ0NTM3MjF9)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Scion7 on November 15, 2023, 06:53:07 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 15, 2023, 05:44:57 AMI have my eyes on this.  Has anyone heard it yet?  Rozhdestvensky is nosferatu ...

'ere ya go, mate!:

I - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMjs-7imCcQ
II - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpIXbzkEgZU
III - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54nAcjBee3Q
IV - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5vobaKjWx4

 -- and you can find Nr. 4 via the same process


Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 15, 2023, 07:11:00 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 15, 2023, 05:44:57 AMI have my eyes on this.  Has anyone heard it yet?  Rozhdestvensky is probably my favorite conductor of this repertoire.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTM2NTk0NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NjQ0NTM3MjF9)
I've got it and enjoy it.
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 15, 2023, 11:03:07 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 15, 2023, 05:44:57 AMI have my eyes on this.  Has anyone heard it yet?  Rozhdestvensky is probably my favorite conductor of this repertoire.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTM2NTk0NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NjQ0NTM3MjF9)

This pair of discs got a recent enthusiastic review on MusicWeb.  Do you know the other/live Rozhdestvensky DSCH performances;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/514jH6Y7VAL._AC_.jpg)

it contains wildly blazing versions of Symphonies 1,4,7,9 & 10 plus Rothschild's Violin and the British & American Folksongs cycle amongst other interesting repertoire too. 
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on November 16, 2023, 05:52:03 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 15, 2023, 11:03:07 PMThis pair of discs got a recent enthusiastic review on MusicWeb.  Do you know the other/live Rozhdestvensky DSCH performances;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/514jH6Y7VAL._AC_.jpg)

it contains wildly blazing versions of Symphonies 1,4,7,9 & 10 plus Rothschild's Violin and the British & American Folksongs cycle amongst other interesting repertoire too.
Great little box!
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 09, 2023, 05:55:22 AM
I came across this set almost by accident.  An established Cologne-based Quartet I had never heard before;

(https://www.dibpic.com/uploads/posts/2023-11/1698821060_asasello-quartett-shostakovich-string-quartets-713-2023.jpg)

They play Quartets 7-13 in order along with a pre-No.9 fragment and a fragment/1st version of No.13.  Stunningly fine and powerful playing and excellent recording too.  Quite a different take on some of the quartets with more flowing tempi in the Largo/Lento movements - but very effective especially whhen juxtaposed against corruscating Allegro movements.  A genuine find and one to put up there with the finest versions for consideration and comparison.....
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Albion on December 09, 2023, 02:55:39 PM
I finally managed to get hold of a second hand copy of Deccas's wonderful nine disc box of the concertos, suites, film music, incidental music, chamber symphonies (arranged from the string quartets) and other orchestral works which was issued in 2006 for the centenary. For some reason there was an unidentified article embedded under the actual surface of CD3 and this caused problems for several tracks. But as this disc is identical with Chailly's disc of film music I simply ordered a second hand copy of that, popped it in the box and chucked the original one out. The set is well worth seeking out as it was deleted several years ago...

 (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71ep-d7mTUL._AC_UY218_.jpg)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on January 02, 2024, 01:19:29 PM
What can I say? I dig all the love for Mitropoulos.

Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: Karl Henning on February 01, 2024, 09:39:29 AM
Cross-post:

Lady Macbeth of Mashpee (https://www.earrelevant.net/2024/02/boston-symphony-orchestras-ambitious-concert-performance-of-lady-macbeth-of-mtsensk-delivers-musical-and-dramatic-excellence/)
Title: Re: Dmitri's Dacha
Post by: relm1 on February 02, 2024, 06:06:17 AM
Quote from: Karl Henning on February 01, 2024, 09:39:29 AMCross-post:

Lady Macbeth of Mashpee (https://www.earrelevant.net/2024/02/boston-symphony-orchestras-ambitious-concert-performance-of-lady-macbeth-of-mtsensk-delivers-musical-and-dramatic-excellence/)

Nice, must have been a very good performance.  I saw this opera in San Francisco many years ago - it was very good.  I always thought Katerina Izmailova was just a minor revision, softening the criticism of Lady Macbeth but this sounds like it was a much more substantial reimagining of the same story.  Fascinating.