https://allthatsinteresting.com/pastors-behaving-badly
Televangelism - extorting money through people's fears and ignorance.
Call the Church Police.
PS: Holden wins the award for best avatar!
Well Christianity has been tamed by the Enlightenment whereas Islam has not, so they are not equivalent. But Forced to choose between medieval Christianity and Islam, probably would say Islam was more civilized, but by a thin margin. But the issue for today is whether Islam is tameable
Quote from: bwv 1080 on August 10, 2018, 02:44:59 PM
Well Christianity has been tamed by the Enlightenment whereas Islam has not, so they are not equivalent. But Forced to choose between medieval Christianity and Islam, probably would say Islam was more civilized, but by a thin margin. But the issue for today is whether Islam is tameable
Following on how prosperity and what is called civilization followed the Roman roads, it occurs to me that the greatest flowering of the Muslim civilization in Spain was not happenstance. That's where the roads were. Christianity took over the whole damn enterprise when it was still a going concern, not a little advantage.
But 'Muslim civilization' was an invasion by Arab barbarians of regions - Mesopotamia and the Mediterranean- that had the oldest civilizations on the planet, and somehow Islam gets the credit for their culture? I don't think so
Quote from: bwv 1080 on August 10, 2018, 05:59:23 PM
But 'Muslim civilization' was an invasion by Arab barbarians of regions - Mesopotamia and the Mediterranean- that had the oldest civilizations on the planet, and somehow Islam gets the credit for their culture? I don't think so
If you build a civilization a religion can make use of it. The other great example of Islamic high culture is Persia. Not a single great civilization is traced to monotheism, Chinese, Greek, Roman, Sanskrit, Persian, Egyptian. The monotheists are great propagandists for their own importance, a kind of success.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 10, 2018, 10:54:45 AM
https://allthatsinteresting.com/pastors-behaving-badly
I don't know where to start or whether to even bother, the title of the thread being so offensive. On a forum dedicated mainly to music, if it weren't for the Church, there would not be Western music. I could write a long apologist article just out of my head without recourse to notes, but meanwhile did search up "Contributions of Christianity to Western Society" when there was already a book written about that more than 20 years ago.
Up to the 7th century, parts of Europe, Middle East, North Africa and Anatolia were Christianized due to evangelism. Islam burned though these areas and gave the populace a choice, "convert or die", but mainly "die", in the tens of millions. Again, if one wants to bring up the argument of warring Christians, the question is whether it is violating a moral code, or fulfilling one. Not understanding the latter is the basis for the incredulity everytime there is a terrorist attack.
The most egregious difference between these two major religions is the oppression of women in Islam and the continuing practice of slavery in countries like Saudi Arabia.
https://probe.org/not-a-threat-the-contributions-of-christianity-to-western-society/
Perhaps the area in which Christianity has been the most vociferously attacked in this century has been the area of science. Religion and science are thought by many to be like oil and water; the two simply don't mix. Religion is thought to offer superstition while science offers facts.
First, Christianity provided important presuppositions of science. The Bible teaches that nature is real, not an illusion. It teaches that is has value and that it is good to work with nature. Historically this was an advance over pagan superstitions because the latter saw nature as something to be worshipped or as something filled with spirits which weren't to be angered. As one theologian wrote, "Nature was thus abruptly desacralized, stripped of many of its arbitrary, unpredictable, and doubtless terrifying aspects.
Christians are often accused of trying to ram their morality down people's throats. In some instances this might accurately describe what some Christians have done. But for the most part, I believe, the criticism follows our simple declaration of what we believe is right and wrong and our participation in the political and social arenas to see such standards codified and enforced.
The question that needs to be answered is whether the high standards of morality taught in Scripture have served society well. Has Christianity served to make individuals and societies better and to provide a better way of life?
In a previous article I wrote briefly about the brutality that characterized Greco-Roman society in Jesus' day.{15} We often hear about the wondrous advances of that society; but do you know about the cruelty? The Roman games, in which "beasts fought men, men fought men; and the vast audience waited hopefully for the sight of death,"{16} reveal the lust for blood. The practice of child exposure shows the low regard for human life the Romans had. Unwanted babies were left to die on trash heaps. Some of these were taken to be slaves or prostitutes.{17} It was distinctly Christian beliefs that brought these practices to an end.
The article has confused the mentioned "pastors" with Christianity. That's like saying the nation has failed because Obama, or Trump, or Clinton, or Nixon, is president.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 10, 2018, 08:53:21 PM
I don't know where to start or whether to even bother, the title of the thread being so offensive. On a forum dedicated mainly to music, if it weren't for the Church, there would not be Western music.
Without the Church the wealth that the Church had would have been elsewhere and it would have been used to produce art, secular or whatever, but something. J. S. Bach's secular cantatas were not paid by the Church. So, we would lose all church cantatas by Bach, but maybe we would have 100 secular cantatas? A lot of classical music has nothing to do with the Church. No doubt we have the Chuch and religion to thank for tons of great art, but to say there would not be art without religion/Church is crazy.
Quote from: bwv 1080 on August 10, 2018, 02:44:59 PM
Well Christianity has been tamed by the Enlightenment
You mean: all major Enlightenment thinkers were Christian, as abundantly - but unintentionally, as he himself is liking atheists and 'radicals' only, but couldn't find enough of them - proven by Jonathan Israel's
Enlightenment Trilogy. You cannot make tigers or Christians 'tame' themselves; indeed the whole 'taming' idea is an absurd myth. And at the other hand: weren't many Enlightement ideas leading to the horrors of the 20th Century? :-X
Quote from: Christo on August 11, 2018, 04:13:12 AM
And at the other hand: weren't many Enlightement ideas leading to the horrors of the 20th Century? :-X
"Secular" can be substituted for "Enlightenment".
Quote from: 71 dB on August 11, 2018, 03:05:39 AM
Without the Church the wealth that the Church had would have been elsewhere and it would have been used to produce art, secular or whatever, but something. J. S. Bach's secular cantatas were not paid by the Church. So, we would lose all church cantatas by Bach, but maybe we would have 100 secular cantatas? A lot of classical music has nothing to do with the Church. No doubt we have the Chuch and religion to thank for tons of great art, but to say there would not be art without religion/Church is crazy.
The Roman Empire was fabulously rich and so were other cultures, so what is your point?
You may dislike it all you want, but you can't get away from Western Civilization being bound up with Christian values. The development of harmony had its roots in medieval organum with the need to avoid the diminished 5th that happens with parallel melodic lines a 5th or 4th apart. The whole line of development leading to Bach several centuries was rooted in Church music, could not have been otherwise.
However, I decided to cut and paste the paragraphs about taking nature as an entity to be studied, not worshipped, while thinking of you because most of the time you don't see the connection between objective scientific inquiry and the mentality that sanctioned it. Of course, the Greeks had much to do with it but this was not dismissed by the Church, but rather encouraged.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 11, 2018, 05:56:04 AM
"Secular" can be substituted for "Enlightenment".
No, it can't and makes very little sense at all (except as another typical myth): everywhere in Europe and America the Enlightenment was rather the opposite of 'secular' in the religious sense - and is confusing the 18th Century with the 20th.
Quote from: Christo on August 11, 2018, 04:13:12 AM
You mean: all major Enlightenment thinkers were Christian, as abundantly - but unintentionally, as he himself is liking atheists and 'radicals' only, but couldn't find enough of them - proven by Jonathan Israel's Enlightenment Trilogy. You cannot make tigers or Christians 'tame' themselves; indeed the whole 'taming' idea is an absurd myth. And at the other hand: weren't many Enlightement ideas leading to the horrors of the 20th Century? :-X
What is called civilization preceded the dictatorships of monotheism, who then claim credit for civilizing, and even for democracy and humanism built upon the refutation of authoritarian rule. The religionists got us coming and going, we're supposed to believe. Before the dictators we couldn't have an ethics (isn't it like dictators to tell us how indispensable they are!) and when the dictators are overthrown they claim credit for producing the people and processes that overthrew them, which isn't even false even if it is hilarious! Yes, religionists are really good at the credit claiming business.
There's a better way of understanding the role of religions in cultural transmission, not as originators but as vessels for ideas and social structures that transcend the claims particular cults make.
While we are on the topic of religious fundamentalism ...
Serialism Has Failed
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 11, 2018, 06:07:51 AM
The Roman Empire was fabulously rich and so were other cultures, so what is your point?
You may dislike it all you want, but you can't get away from Western Civilization being bound up with Christian values. The development of harmony had its roots in medieval organum with the need to avoid the diminished 5th that happens with parallel melodic lines a 5th or 4th apart. The whole line of development leading to Bach several centuries was rooted in Church music, could not have been otherwise.
First, Christian values have never had much to do with the Church, either in what it taught or the actions it took.
The whole line of development leading to Bach was not rooted in Church music. Secular music at the courts was as advanced as sacred music and often was more innovative and forward looking. Had the Church not sucked up the resources of society, musicians would have gone to secular sources for support. In general, the Church has been a huge drain on human resources and progress.
Quote from: drogulus on August 11, 2018, 06:14:09 AM
What is called civilization preceded the dictatorships of monotheism, who then claim credit for civilizing, and even for democracy and humanism built upon the refutation of authoritarian rule. The religionists got us coming and going, we're supposed to believe. Before the dictators we couldn't have an ethics (isn't it like dictators to tell us how indispensable they are!) and when the dictators are overthrown they claim credit for producing the people and processes that overthrew them, which isn't even false even if it is hilarious! Yes, religionists are really good at the credit claiming business.
There's a better way of understanding the role of religions in cultural transmission, not as originators but as vessels for ideas and social structures that transcend the claims particular cults make.
Ah, good old Rousseau again! The noble savage myth. #funny
The most interesting, if obtuse, thing about this thread, a misfired riposte to Abe's Islam thread, is that Abe cited a case where Islam, which demands submission, actually failed — it failed to extract submission from a woman who made her own choices instead.
Quote from: Ken B on August 11, 2018, 06:28:32 AM
While we are on the topic of religious fundamentalism ...
Serialism Has Failed
It has, miserably.
Quote from: Ken B on August 11, 2018, 11:03:03 AM
The most interesting, if obtuse, thing about this thread, a misfired riposte to Abe's Islam thread, is that Abe cited a case where Islam, which demands submission, actually failed — it failed to extract submission from a woman who made her own choices instead.
Logic or consistency have no place in
The Diner. >:D
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 11, 2018, 06:07:51 AM
You may dislike it all you want, but you can't get away from Western Civilization being bound up with Christian values.
I have never denied that. History is what it is for all good and bad. The question is what values do we hold today and in the future?
"Christian values" are not unique to Christianity. Religions have a nasty habid of claiming ideas to themselves. Secular societies/atheists share many of these ideas as common sense (e.g. killing is morally wrong). Furthermore, even Christians themselves disagree about "Christian values". Is abortion ok? Is homosexuality ok? Is gay marriage ok? Christians have differing views. Some people believe in creation or ID. Some people believe evolution. Some people believe young (and even flat!) Earth. So, what are "Christian values" exactly? Is Trump living up to "Christian values" to earn the support of Evangelicals? Morality and values aren't absolutes, but products of society and that's why they evolve with society. That's why one society at one time may think slavery ok, when other societies condemn it. So, why hold on old beliefs that aren't 100 % in line with the moral codes of society today? Why would we (still) hate gays when biology has given us understanding about the normality of homosexuality in nature? Keep the good moral codes that are still valid and throw away obsolete ones. As I see it, Western Civilization reached about 150 years ago a point where "Christian values" and religion started to become obsolete because of secular humanism and scientific worldview. Maybe in the distant future these principles become obsolete (artificial superintelligence creates supermorality for people or something like that), but for now they seem to be way to go into the future.
Interesting that we are talking of the Christianity of centuries ago which bears little resemblance to modern Christianity. This includes both practice and profession. It also brings to mind that quote regarding the 'opium of the masses'.
Quote from: Holden on August 11, 2018, 01:33:49 PM
Interesting that we are talking of the Christianity of centuries ago which bears little resemblance to modern Christianity. This includes both practice and profession. It also brings to mind that quote regarding the 'opium of the masses'.
You don't think Mike Pence is bound in centuries old practice? The Christian right is based on fundamentalist values of centuries ago.
Quote from: relm1 on August 11, 2018, 03:57:34 PM
You don't think Mike Pence is bound in centuries old practice? The Christian right is based on fundamentalist values of centuries ago.
5 examples please.
Quote from: relm1 on August 11, 2018, 03:57:34 PMThe Christian right is based on fundamentalist values of centuries ago.
Of course not: fundamentalism dates from the 1920s. At the very best, one could maintain that the evanglical strand of the American religion went astray during the Second Great Awakening, when it departed from Protestantism and embraced Gnosticism and Manicheism (Harold Bloom).
Quote from: Christo on August 12, 2018, 01:25:59 AM
Of course not: fundamentalism dates from the 1920s. At the very best, one could maintain that the evanglical strand of the American religion went astray during the Second Great Awakening, when it departed from Protestantism and embraced Gnosticism and Manicheism (Harold Bloom).
I would say it hit mainstream in the 20s; it does have roots in the SGA.
And biblical inerrancy developed in the 1800s. Harvard was one of the key hot spots in that.
(It was a reaction. people forget how widespread ascendant amongst the northeast elite Unitarianism was circa 1900. )
Quote from: Ken B on August 11, 2018, 04:04:46 PM
5 examples please.
Seriously, you don't know or are you baiting?
Quote from: relm1 on August 12, 2018, 06:04:30 AM
Seriously, you don't know or are you baiting?
Calling out.
Quote from: Christo on August 12, 2018, 01:25:59 AM
Of course not: fundamentalism dates from the 1920s. At the very best, one could maintain that the evanglical strand of the American religion went astray during the Second Great Awakening, when it departed from Protestantism and embraced Gnosticism and Manicheism (Harold Bloom).
Did you ever hear of Luther or Calvin? How about the Puritans?
Quote from: 71 dB on August 11, 2018, 03:05:39 AM
Without the Church the wealth that the Church had would have been elsewhere and it would have been used to produce art, secular or whatever, but something. J. S. Bach's secular cantatas were not paid by the Church. So, we would lose all church cantatas by Bach, but maybe we would have 100 secular cantatas? A lot of classical music has nothing to do with the Church. No doubt we have the Chuch and religion to thank for tons of great art, but to say there would not be art without religion/Church is crazy.
What you miss in this post and your newer one, is the sense of grandeur, majesty, glory and transcendence that human beings have striven to emulate in art, architecture and music. Think of the great cathedrals, the frescos of Michelangelo, the B minor Mass of Bach, the deeply religious Requiems of various composers and so much more. Only materialists would fail to understand the informing spirit that permeates these works and in turn positively affecting the rest of Western culture. Really too bad, I'd say.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 14, 2018, 12:33:17 AM
Did you ever hear of Luther or Calvin? How about the Puritans?
A) I did and B) read them carefully, being Reformed myself; so I'm C) very much aware how far American fundamentalists & evangelicals went astray (becoming Manichaeists, basically). ;D
Christ Almighty, this is gonna be another great thread.
Quote from: Marc on August 14, 2018, 02:18:56 AM
Christ Almighty, this is gonna be another great thread.
Not as long as you mistake Christ for the Almighty! :D
Quote from: Christo on August 14, 2018, 02:21:11 AM
Not as long as you mistake Christ for the Almighty! :D
Mistake?
'Mistake' what?
What 'mistake'?
Discuss guys and have fun.
Quote from: Christo on August 14, 2018, 02:21:11 AM
Not as long as you mistake Christ for the Almighty! :D
Not as long as you mistake Christo for the Almighty. :P ;)
Quote from: (: premont :) on August 14, 2018, 03:47:12 AM
Not as long as you mistake Christo for the Almighty. :P ;)
lol
Quote from: Christo on August 14, 2018, 02:11:54 AM
I'm C) very much aware how far American fundamentalists & evangelicals went astray (becoming Manichaeists, basically). ;D
Says you.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 14, 2018, 05:20:21 AM
Says you.
I'm aware you claim to be a Catholic, hating your own church. :-[
Quote from: Marc on August 14, 2018, 02:36:38 AM
Mistake?
Of course. No problem, but funny nevertheless. ;D
Quote from: Christo on August 14, 2018, 06:16:08 AM
I'm aware you claim to be a Catholic, hating your own church.
Just because you declare something doesn't make it true. The above statement is really off the wall.
Most Evangelicals would have never heard of Manichaeism, let alone practice it, since it is so contrary to what they believe and preach.
This thread made me remember of this quote from "Whatever Works" (Woody Allen film, 2009)
Boris Yellnikoff: I didn't jump on you. It's not the idea behind Christianity I'm faulting, or Judaism, or any religion. It's the professionals who've made it into corporate business. There's big money in the god racket, big money.
Boris Yellnikoff is played by Larry David.
Most, if not all, religions contain some pretty good wisdom. However, the involvement of imperfect men and hierarchical institutions leads inevitably to corruption. Anyone who tries can be spiritual without joining an institutionalized religion.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 14, 2018, 12:48:50 AM
What you miss in this post and your newer one, is the sense of grandeur, majesty, glory and transcendence that human beings have striven to emulate in art, architecture and music. Think of the great cathedrals, the frescos of Michelangelo, the B minor Mass of Bach, the deeply religious Requiems of various composers and so much more. Only materialists would fail to understand the informing spirit that permeates these works and in turn positively affecting the rest of Western culture. Really too bad, I'd say.
You are completely mistaken if you think you need religion to have sense of grandeur. Sorry, you religious people are not
special, only delusional. Art is art. Sometimes inspired by religious feelings, sometimes be something else. As an atheist I get a lot of "kicks" of Bach's church music without any religious delusions, because art is art.
CERN's Large Hadron Collider is a cathedral of the 21st century.
Quote from: 71 dB on August 14, 2018, 07:23:44 AM
CERN's Large Hadron Collider is a cathedral of the 21st century.
A particle accelerator? You got to be kidding! I was talking about spirit that doesn't have to be religious in the conventional sense, can be awe of nature, space, the universe...
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 14, 2018, 09:18:31 AM
A particle accelerator? You got to be kidding! I was talking about spirit that doesn't have to be religious in the conventional sense, can be awe of nature, space, the universe...
Richard Dawkins talks about that. It would be truly incongruous to think that scientists and phiosophers would be blind to the significance of their explorations, as though
we needed to tell
them. Dawkins wrote a book about it,
Unweaving The Rainbow. I quote:
"The fact that we slowly apprehend our world, rather than suddenly discover it, should not subtract from its wonder." "In very different ways, the possibility that the universe is teeming with life, and the opposite possibility that we are totally alone, are equally exciting. Either way, the urge to know more about the universe seems to me irresistible, and I cannot imagine that anybody of truly poetic sensibility could disagree." The myth of materialists "not getting it" is too useful to be abandoned. It should not be given a scintilla of respect.
Quote from: drogulus on August 14, 2018, 09:35:08 AM
Richard Dawkins talks about that. It would be truly incongruous to think that scientists and phiosophers would be blind to the significance of their explorations, as though we needed to tell them. Dawkins wrote a book about it, Unweaving The Rainbow. I quote:
"The fact that we slowly apprehend our world, rather than suddenly discover it, should not subtract from its wonder."
"In very different ways, the possibility that the universe is teeming with life, and the opposite possibility that we are totally alone, are equally exciting. Either way, the urge to know more about the universe seems to me irresistible, and I cannot imagine that anybody of truly poetic sensibility could disagree."
That's beautiful.
Early religion didn't make much of a god as something that exists. An existence concept is a bit like zero, an abstraction that has use. I'm not 69 years old and a guitar player and exist, at least not quite. David Hume thought entities were the discoverable properties bundled and existing was nothing above that. Gods were what they were taken to do, no language was there for them to also exist. In philosophy it's said by somebody important that naming a thing doesn't instantiate it. Confusion on that score could instantiate all kinds of abstractions that now have to be real, too. Now we can have a devil, lucky us!
"In a world" where a thing is something being done there are no tools to separate out what's real like we do now. That hadn't happened yet. When we get to the Greeks and Protagoras we finally reach the concept that the systematically unknowable doesn't exist, meaning as I take it that nothing isn't a kind of something, and that what is unknowable can't have an existence claim attached to it. Even a hypothetical has to have discoverable properties or it's senseless.
Also:
Hundreds of accused priests are listed in Pennsylvania report on Catholic Church sex abuse (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/08/14/pennsylvania-grand-jury-report-on-sex-abuse-in-catholic-church-will-list-hundreds-of-accused-predator-priests/)
Quote from: San Antone on August 14, 2018, 06:51:29 AM
Boris Yellnikoff: I didn't jump on you. It's not the idea behind Christianity I'm faulting, or Judaism, or any religion. It's the professionals who've made it into corporate business. There's big money in the god racket, big money.
Which is the point I was making by mentioning televangelism. But then again, there has always been big, big money in the god racket.
Quote from: drogulus on August 14, 2018, 09:35:08 AM
The myth of materialists "not getting it" is too useful to be abandoned. It should not be given a scintilla of respect.
I was talking about the emotionally flattened, of which materialism is usually a big factor.
Quote from: San Antone on August 14, 2018, 06:51:29 AM
This thread made me remember of this quote from "Whatever Works" (Woody Allen film, 2009)
Boris Yellnikoff: I didn't jump on you. It's not the idea behind Christianity I'm faulting, or Judaism, or any religion. It's the professionals who've made it into corporate business. There's big money in the god racket, big money.
Boris Yellnikoff is played by Larry David.
Most, if not all, religions contain some pretty good wisdom. However, the involvement of imperfect men and hierarchical institutions leads inevitably to corruption. Anyone who tries can be spiritual without joining an institutionalized religion.
Thanks.
I needed that.
Quote from: San Antone on August 14, 2018, 06:51:29 AM
This thread made me remember of this quote from "Whatever Works" (Woody Allen film, 2009)
Boris Yellnikoff: I didn't jump on you. It's not the idea behind Christianity I'm faulting, or Judaism, or any religion. It's the professionals who've made it into corporate business. There's big money in the god racket, big money.
Boris Yellnikoff is played by Larry David.
Most, if not all, religions contain some pretty good wisdom. However, the involvement of imperfect men and hierarchical institutions leads inevitably to corruption. Anyone who tries can be spiritual without joining an institutionalized religion.
I agree with this too.
Quote from: San Antone on August 14, 2018, 06:51:29 AM
This thread made me remember of this quote from "Whatever Works" (Woody Allen film, 2009)
Boris Yellnikoff: I didn't jump on you. It's not the idea behind Christianity I'm faulting, or Judaism, or any religion. It's the professionals who've made it into corporate business. There's big money in the god racket, big money.
Boris Yellnikoff is played by Larry David.
Most, if not all, religions contain some pretty good wisdom. However, the involvement of imperfect men and hierarchical institutions leads inevitably to corruption. Anyone who tries can be spiritual without joining an institutionalized religion.
Aye. Wisdom!
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 14, 2018, 08:30:09 PM
I was talking about the emotionally flattened, of which materialism is usually a big factor.
One could say prosperity preachers are the most materialistic of them all...
Religion is a failure, but I don't know how you'd control the people without it.
(Humanity has failed.)
Quote from: MN Dave on August 15, 2018, 05:01:19 AM
Religion is a failure, but I don't know how you'd control the people without it.
As discussed here, part of the problem is the scoundrels who control the people
with it.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 15, 2018, 05:02:15 AM
As discussed here, part of the problem is the scoundrels who control the people with it.
See my modified post. Another part of the problem is belief in supernatural beings.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 14, 2018, 08:30:09 PM
I was talking about the emotionally flattened, of which materialism is usually a big factor.
You are using the word in the mundane sense that doesn't apply to this discussion. Materialism is about a single explanatory path that gets you from physics to me saying this. It meets the maximum standards of coherence and correspondence ever devised. That's all you can get, and you have to get all you can.
Quote from: MN Dave on August 15, 2018, 05:01:19 AM
Religion is a failure, but I don't know how you'd control the people without it.
How about secular laws?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 14, 2018, 10:19:51 AM
Also:
Hundreds of accused priests are listed in Pennsylvania report on Catholic Church sex abuse (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/08/14/pennsylvania-grand-jury-report-on-sex-abuse-in-catholic-church-will-list-hundreds-of-accused-predator-priests/)
Ouch..some of the cruelest acts ever performed on another innocent person. Very sad.
Quote from: relm1 on August 15, 2018, 04:42:11 PM
Ouch..some of the cruelest acts ever performed on another innocent person. Very sad.
It's almost as if —
as a class — the priests themselves do not understand the concepts of
sin and
disgrace.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 14, 2018, 10:19:51 AM
Also:
Hundreds of accused priests are listed in Pennsylvania report on Catholic Church sex abuse (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/08/14/pennsylvania-grand-jury-report-on-sex-abuse-in-catholic-church-will-list-hundreds-of-accused-predator-priests/)
The true depth of the evil there is staggering and shameful.
In Erie, a 7-year-old boy was sexually abused by a priest who then told him he should go to confession and confess his "sins" to that same priest.
Another boy was repeatedly raped from ages 13 to 15 by a priest who bore down so hard on the boy's back that it caused severe spine injuries. He became addicted to painkillers and later died of an overdose.
One victim in Pittsburgh was forced to pose naked as Christ on the cross while priests photographed him with a Polaroid camera. Priests gave the boy and others gold cross necklaces to mark them as being "groomed" for abuse.
Quote from: relm1 on August 16, 2018, 06:12:35 AM
The true depth of the evil there is staggering and shameful.
In Erie, a 7-year-old boy was sexually abused by a priest who then told him he should go to confession and confess his "sins" to that same priest.
Another boy was repeatedly raped from ages 13 to 15 by a priest who bore down so hard on the boy's back that it caused severe spine injuries. He became addicted to painkillers and later died of an overdose.
One victim in Pittsburgh was forced to pose naked as Christ on the cross while priests photographed him with a Polaroid camera. Priests gave the boy and others gold cross necklaces to mark them as being "groomed" for abuse.
Absolutely vile.
Cue the Tim Minchin pope song!
(No link as it is so very, very NSFW. YouTube has it.)
Quote from: 71 dB on August 15, 2018, 02:12:34 PM
How about secular laws?
Either you missed MN Dave's point, or I did.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2018, 12:42:41 AM
It's almost as if — as a class — the priests themselves do not understand the concepts of sin and disgrace.
Repubs have said for decades that they have a messaging problem. If only people could be made to understand the relevant concepts they would be compliant and behave in a way that makes the beliefs true. There is no room in their models for beliefs to be false or incoherent or incapable of being instantiated in a society as given. How can you correct errors in absolute truth or absolute authority?
The problem goes deeper than faulty understandings of the concepts.
Quote from: drogulus on August 16, 2018, 10:28:53 AM
The problem goes deeper than faulty understandings of the concepts.
Yes.
Christianity has failed? Blame it on the ever increasing left wing atheist socialists, spreading indecency, poverty and misery throughout the world.
The devil wins out in the end as He knew He would. Patience is a virtue and now He claims the prize! >:D
Christianity has failed? Well Christ didn't fare so well out of the deal either...............
Quote from: hpowders on September 25, 2018, 02:50:18 PM
Blame it on the ever increasing left wing atheist socialists, spreading indecency
Just look at how they corrupted Donald Trump with their porn stars, grabbable pussies, and easy Russian cash.
Quote from: Daverz on September 25, 2018, 05:28:24 PM
Just look at how they corrupted Donald Trump with their porn stars, grabbable pussies, and easy Russian cash.
That must have taken years of hard work ;D
Quote from: hpowders on September 25, 2018, 02:50:18 PM
Christianity has failed? Blame it on the ever increasing left wing atheist socialists, spreading indecency, poverty and misery throughout the world.
The devil wins out in the end as He knew He would. Patience is a virtue and now He claims the prize! >:D
I think there is a strong correlation between wealth and secularism in the World, but whatever... ...also if you look at the politic climate in the US, it seem the left are the only group with decency (e.g. against caging immigrant children and wanting healthcare for all people) but whatever. I know how pointless it is to argue with people like you.